Skip to main content

Full text of "Hearings before the Joint commission of the Congress of the United States, Sixty-third Congress .."

See other formats


X .Ag.:^^% ./\.ja^i^\ .^yJJ^^-. 

^* ^^"^ ''^^^ ^^^^\>^/ . '3^^' "-^ 

^O'-*^ V 

V . « • 

V *-^-' ,^^ 

o_ * 

-v. 1, •■ « • • < o 

:- '^bv^ 


>^ o. 

1.0 v\ 


1^ . » • o. 

^^' ^^'\ '• 

^- '^bv^^ °V 


i'-.'^.O^'.-W^Z-^V*" .» 


»!,*°' ^ V »I.VL'i 

^* A 

<^ * .: 




- ^^ 





1^ - « • 


1* . « • 











FEBRUARY 6, 7, 8, and MARCH 25, 1914 

PAKT 11 

Printed for the use of the Joint Commission 




Congress of the United States. 

Senatoes : Repeesentatives : 

JOE T, ROBINSON, Arkansas, Chairman. JOHN H. STEPHENS, Texas. 

HARRY LANE, Oregon.. CHARLES D. CARTER, Oklahoma. 


R, B. Keating, Arkansas, Secretary. 

Ross WiLLUMS, Arkansas, Clerk. 

Do of D. 
- ■•!' 27 1915 


Testimony of — Page. 

Mrs. Rosa B. La Flesche (outing manager) 965 

Pupils — 

Hiram Chase 978 

John Gibson 988 

Alvis Martin 993 

Louis Braun •. 996 

Peter Eastman 999 

Edward Bracklin 1003 

Henry Broker 1009 

Zephaniah Simons ' 1011 

Montreville Yuda 1016 

Wallace Denny (assistant disciplinarian) 1049 

Mrs. N. R. Denny 1056 

Mrs. Bertha D. Canfield (teacher) 1058 

Mr. John Whitwell (principal teacher) 1063 

Re Julia Hardin 1081 

' ' Stolen pies " 1083 

Industrial training 1086 

Health and sanitation 1088 

Correspondence and comments 1089 

Miss Julia Hardin 1100 

Mrs. Angel Dietz (teacher) 1106 

Louis Schmegman 1111 

Mrs. Lydia E. Kaup (normal teacher) 1112 

William H. Miller (financial clerk) 1114 

Re organization of athletic association and system of accounting 1115 

Identification of various checks 1116 

Identification of checks on account of Supt. Friedman 1121 

Mileage books 1122 

Expenditures for arrests, prizes, clippings, etc 1126 

E. L. Martin (press agent) 1131 

Y\'illiam H. Miller, resumed 1133 

Reorganization of athletic association 1133 

Statement of receipts from games 1136 

Method of accounting for receipts 1140 

William B. Gray (farmer) 1144 

0. K. Ballard (second farmer) 1148 

W. J. Ryan (dairyman) 1151 

Dr. E. A. Knoble (president Dickinson College) 1154 

Fiske Goodyear (merchant) 1162 

Rev. George M. Diffenderfer (minister) 1167 

Dr. A . R. Allen (\-isiting physician) 1172 

J. W. Henderson (attorney) 1178 

Rev. Alexander McMillan 1180 

George Abrams (gardner) 1186 

WilUam Nonaat (tailor) 1187 

Miss Emma C. Lovewell (teacher) 1182 

Miss Ilattie M. McDowell (teacher) 1185 

Edward McKean (disciplinarian) 1189 

Miss Margaret M. Sweeney (teacher) 1193 

Miss Anna H. Ridenour (matron) 1195 

Re Julia Hardin 1196 

General conditions 1199 

Dr. Walter Rendtorff (school physician) 1208 



Testimony of — Continued. P^g®- 

Harvey K. Meyer (superintendent's clerk) 1204 

Charles H. Cams (painter) 1205 

Martin L. Lau (carriage maker) 1206 

John A. Herr (carpenter) 1206 

William C. Shambaugh (blacksmith) 1207 

H. Gardner (assistant carpenter) 1209 

Harry B. Lamason (mason) 1210 

John Boltz (shoemaker) 1211 

Robert B. George (tinner) 1212 

R. C. Renneker (baker) 1213 

Miss Virginia Penrose 1215 

Mrs. Emma H. Foster (teacher) 1219 

Glenn S. Warner (athletic director) 1222 

Re discipline 1226 

Work of Supt. Friedman 1233 

August Kensler (^quartermaster) 1238 

Claude M. Staufter (band master) 1241 

Dr. Moses Friedman (superintendent) 1246 

Re relations with principal teacher 1248 

Discipline and work of disciplinarian 1250 

Julia Hardin 1251 

Article in Public Ledger 1258 

Athletic fund 1261 

Industrial training 126^ 

Farm produce 1273 

Mattresses 1275 

Montreville Yuda 1276 

Departments discontinued 1277 

Meals, etc 1278 

Mies Lelah Bums (teacher) 1280 

Miss Adelaide B. Reichel (teacher) 1285 

S. J. Nori (chief clerk) 1292 

August Kensler (quartermaster) 1325 



Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs, 

Carlisle, Pa. 

The joint commission met in tlie Y. M. C. A. liall at the Carlisle 
Indian School, Carlisle, Pa., at 4.30 o'clock p. m. 

Present: Senators Robinson (chairman) and Lane and Represent- 
atives Stephens and Carter. 

The Chairman. The Joint Commission of Congress to Investigate 
Indian Affairs visits the Carlisle Institute for the purpose of inspect- 
ing the same and making an investigation of the conditions prevail- 
ing at the institute. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. What is your name ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Rosa B. La Flesche. 

The Chairman. Are you employed in the Carlisle Institute? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. In wdiat capacity are you employed i 

Mrs. La Flesche. My title is manager of the outing department. 

The Chairman. How long have you been connected with the 
institute ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. This time I have been here nearh^ two years. 
• The Chairman. Were you formerly employed here ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. 

The Chairman. How long ago and for what length of time ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Why, I came here in 1889, and was a student 
for one year. I then graduated and then took a position and was here 
12 years. 

The Chairman. Where was your home before you entered the 
Carlisle Institute ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Michigan. 

The Chairman. What is the general character of the duties you 
perform, Mrs. La Flesche ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Why, principally clerical work and directing the 
outing — pupils going out and commg in, and looking after them while 
they are out. 

The Chairman. Do you live here at the institute? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How long have you lived here ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Nearly two years. 

The Chairman. Are you familiar udth the conditions in the school ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Why, so far as my department is concerned. 



The CHAiiniAX. Have you observed the progress and conditions 
that obtain in the school generally ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir. 

The CiiAiRMAX. The state of discipline among the pupils? 

Mrs. La Flesche. It is better now than when I first came here, 
although it is lax yet. 

The Chairmax. How long is it since it began to improve ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Well, this fall. 

The Chairmax. What do you mean by "lax" ? Describe it? 

Mts. La Flesche. Well, the pupils seem to have no regard for the 
orders that are issued, and, of course, that seems to be the cause for 
much of the trouble. 

The Chairman. You know Supt. Friedman, of course ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. In what estimation is he held by the pupils ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. I think that is where the trouble is; they do 
not regard him highly. They have no respect for him. 

The Chairman. What evidence do you see of the fact that he is 
not highly esteemed by the pupils ? What circumstances lead you 
to that conclusion ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Why, there has been times when he has asked 
them to do things that they positively refused. 

The Chairman. Tell us something about those things. 

IVIrs. La Flesche. At one time last summer there was a party of 
girls, two or tlu'ee, I think, being sent home. They were sent from 
the office building. The carriages were at the office, and a group of 
girl friends followed them up to the office and were sitting out on the 
campus, and they wanted to say good-by to their fr'iends, and Mr. 
Friedman, of com-se, did not want them to speak to the girls that 
were being expelled. At first he sent Miss Ridenour out to tell them 
to go back to quarters, and the girls would not go. There must have 
been about 8 or 10 girls there. So she went into the office and told 
him, and he came out on the porch and asked them to go to the 
quarters, and they defied him, and just stayed right there. 

The Chairman. That is one incident. Do you know of other 
instances when the pupils have openly shown a contempt of his 
authority ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. No; I don't know of any — that is, I don't 
know of my own observation, but I have heard of other cases. 

The Chairman. Here about the premises ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. From whom did you hear it ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. From Mr. Denny, the assistant disciplinarian, 
and Mr. McKean. 

The Chairman. Who is the disciplinarian here? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Mr. McKean. 

The Chairmax. How long has he been here? 

Mrs. La Flesche. I think he came last June — May or June — some 
time last summer. 

The Chairman. Do you know anything about the number of 
female pu])ils who have been sent home during the last school year? 
Mrs. La Flesche. I know there has boon several, but I do not 
know \\\o. exact number. 


E. The Chairmax. Do you know the causes for which they were 
expelled ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Not fully; they did not come under my de- 

The Chairman. That did not come under your jurisdiction? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Of course, I heard of those things; but I do 
not know definitely about them. 

The Chairman. How is the culinary department, the feeding 
department, of the school run ? Under whose authority is that ? 

Mi's. La Flesche. I really do not know. I think perhaps Mr. 
Kensler has charge of that department. 

The Chairman. Do you know anything about what kind and 
quality of food is served the pupils ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. I do not. I know the pupils are not satisfied* 

The Chairman, Is the complaint general ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. 

The Chairman. What is the general nature of the complaint ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. They do not get enough to eat. 

The Chairman. Is there any complaint as to the quality ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know about that. 

The Chairman. I asked you awhile ago if you knew^ of any other 
instances where the authority of the superintendent had been held 
in open contempt by the pupils. Do 3'ou know anything about their 
calling him opprobrious names or jeering at him? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, I do. I know that he passed by the boys' 
quarters one evening, and the boys were supposed to be in bed and 
all quiet, and all of a sudden there was quite a racket, noise, and 
hollering, and I heard that they threw old shoes at liim — sticks and 
things the}^ could get hold of. 

The Chairman. Do you know if they called him any names ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. No. 

The Chairman. Did he know it ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes; he knew it. 

The Chairman. What was done about it ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know. Mr. McKean and Mr. Dickey 
were in their cottage. They lived in that small cottage. The lights 
were out and boys supposed to be asleep, and they heard this racket, 
and they jumped up and went out and met Mr. Friedman, and he 
told them they had better look after their boys. I do not know 
what was done in regard to that. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether domestic science is taught 
in the school, or anything pertaining to housekeeping ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Not that I know of, no. 

The Chairman. Do you know what effort is made to instruct the 
male pupils in farming or dairying or kindred occupations ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. The outing department is supposed to give the 
boys experience on the farm and the girls experience in housework. 

The Chairman. That is, instead of giving the instruction in house- 
keeping to the girls and in agriculture to the boys here in the school, 
they are sent out to receive that instruction ? 

Mr. La Flesche. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether that is in fact given them, 
and how many of thorn receive that kind of instruction ? 


^1t. La Flesche. Why, I kiiow they go out and work on the farm 
and work in the homes, and in some cases the idea for which the outing 
department was started is carried out. Again, there are other cases 
where they get the boys and girls; that is, the farmers and people 
get the boys and girls for the work they can get out of them. 

The Chairman. They hire out both boys and girls to farmers ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir; the boys to farmers, and there axe 
only a few farm homes for the girls. 

The Chairman. Are they supposed to receive salaries or pay for 
their work ? 

Mr. La Flesche. They do. 

The Chaikmax. What is done with the income fi'oni that source ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. We have certain rules that govern that, and half 
of their wages are to come here to the bank and to be saved for them 
until their period of enrollment expires, and then the other half they 
are allowed to spend. 

The Chairman. Do you know how man}" boys were hired out to 
the farmers last year, during the last school year? 

Mrs. La Flesche. I can not give you the exact number. 

The Chairman. Do you know approximately ? 

Mrs. La Flesche, Yes; we have something over 500 boys and girls 

The Chairman. How long are they permitted or required to remain 
out on the farm ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. We have an outing party in April, and those 
boys and girls usually stay out until the last of August. Then they 
come in and begin school the 1st of September, except those boys and 
girls wishing to remain out and attend school in the country. 

The Chairman. Do they attend the public schools ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What is the average wage that the boys receive ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. The boys get from S12 to $15 average, and the 
girls about $8. 

The Chairman. You mean a month ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir. That includes board and washing. 

The Chairman. Do they get any salary when they attend the pub- 
lic schools ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. No, sir. 

The Chairman. How are they clothed ? Are they clothed by 
this institution? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes; they just work for their board when they 
are out in the wintertime. 

The Chairman. Do you know of many pupils in this school who 
have been taken from places where they have had advantages of 
homes before they came to this school ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Do I know 

The Chairman, Do you know how many pupils were in the pub- 
lic schools where they had the advantages of homes before they came 

Mi-s. La Flesche. I should think about one-half to three-fourths 
of the pupils who are here have the advantage of public schools. Of 
course, I may be wrong about that, but a great many of them have. 

The Chairman. Tliat is your estimate? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. 


The Chairman When they go on the ouiiiifj what arrangement 
is made about the pupils" raih'oad fare ? 

Airs. La Flesche. The patrons pay tlieir fare out to their country 
home, and then the pupils pay their way back. The fare seldom 
goes over $4. We have several homes where it takes $4.23 for rail- 
road fare. 

The Chairman. Now, Mrs. La Flesche, I would like for you to 
make a general statement as to your observation of the conditions 
here, and set forth any facts that you think ought to be called to the 
attention of this commission, if you please, without restraint. 

Mrs. La Flesche. One thing especially that I have felt w^as deplor- 
able in my department was this fact, that Mr. Friedman has always 
pressed me — and, I think, likewise pressed Mrs. Denny, when she had 
charge of the outing department — to put a great many pupils out. 
That seems to be his special desire, to make the number large regard- 
less of the kind of homes or the quality of students we send out. 
The idea of the outing, as originated by Gen. Pratt, was to teach the 
Indian boy and girl how to live and come in contact with white people 
in their own homes, how to learn the economical ways of housekeep- 
ing, fanning, etc. That was the idea, to place them not as servants, 
but sort of helpers, getting w^ages for what they did, and to receive 
help by the patrons by their association. That was the original idea 
of the outing. 

That principle has been lost, it seems to me. When I was here as 
a student I went out. I was out two different summers, and at both 
times I was in good homes, and I gathered a great deal; I gained a 
great deal from my experience. I find that in many cases— of 
course, the boys do not talk to me as much as the girls, but the girls 
will tell me about their outing homes, and they tell me where they 
have been benefited, and others tell me where they have not been. 
My idea of the outing would be this, to place the pupils in well- 
selected homes, and improve the quality of the pupils — make it a 
privilege to go out, rather than send any boy or girl in order to swell 
the numbers. 

The Chairman. The object of the outing is. of course, as you have 
said, or should be, to give the pupils the advantage of training in 
good homes ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. 

The Chairman. And you think that class of work can only reach 
the highest degree of success by carefully selecting the homes to 
which the pupils are sent and then also carefully selecting the pupils, 
in order that the advantages may properly be availed oi i 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. I know there were times last summer 
when Mr. Friedman said to me, "Put them out ; put them out." He 
kept on pushing me to put them out. And there were cases where 
pupils that I would not have in my own house tliat we had to send 
out in order to make the numbers that he wanted. 

The Chairman. If I understand you correctly, the only idea that 
seems to prevail among the present management is to put out as 
many stuclents as possible in order that tlie income from that source 
may be increased, largely losing sight of the benefits to the pujnls, 
which was the original purpose of the outing work { 
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. 


The Chairman. Do you know whether there is much drinking 
among the pupils ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Very much. 
. The Chairman. What observation have you made of that ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. We had a great deal of trouble out in the coun- 
try. Of course, the lax discipline here, I feel, is the cause of much of 
our trouble in the country. Mr. Dickey is the outing agent. He 
visits the homes of the boys and he spent most of his time — instead 
of encouraging them to work, etc., he spent most of his time after 
runaways and taking care of the drunks, and there was a great deal 
of drinking here last winter, more than there has been this wdnter. 

The Chairman. Is liquor sold in this town legally? 

Mrs. La Flesche. I suppose so. 

The Chairman. Is it, Mr. Rupley ? 

Congi-essman Rupley. Yes; under a high-license law. It is sold 
simply in hotels. 

The Chairman. Have you any information as to how this liquor 
is procured by the Indian pupils ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. No; I do not know. I have heard they can get 
it any time they want it. 

The Chairman. Have you seen the Indians drunk about the school 
grounds ? 

IMrs. La Flesche. Yes. 

The Chairman. To what extent ? 

]\Irs. La Flesche. I happened to be passing — I heard them yelling 
around, and then I was passing out the gate one evening and I met 
a couple of the boys drunk. And last winter, down on the skating 
pond, and several times when they had their receptions here in the 
gymnasium I smeUed liquor on some of the boys. 

Senator Lane. Do any of the girls drink? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Not that I know of. 

The Chairman. What is the state of discipline among the girls, 
Mrs. La Flesche; the general state of it? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Why, from aU I can gather they are very hard 
to control. Last year there was very lax discipline, but this year 
they seem to have a better hold of it than they had last year. 

The Chairman. What is the state of feehng of the young lady 
pupils and the girls in the school toward the superintendent ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. They have no respect for him. 

The Chairman. What evidence have you of that fact? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Just their general attitude. 

The Chairman. Do they hold him in contempt? 

Senator Lane. And why ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. I don't know why. I don't know really — I do 
not talk to the children about those things. 

Senator IjANE. From your observation, why? 

Mrs. La Flesche. It seems as though he is not fatherly. He does 
not seem to care anything for the children. That seems to be the 
general feeling. 

Representative Stephens. You say there is better discipline now 
than last fall ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir. 

Representative Stephens. "What do you attribute that to ? 


Mrs. La Flesciie. Well, last year when I first came here there was — 
the disciplmarian and matron at that time were not in harmony ^vith 
the superintendent, and, of course, they were pulling and hauling 
both ways. 

The Chairman. Do they complain of instances of injustice upon 
the part of the superintendents 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. 

The Chairman. Can you state some of the instances ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes; there are individual cases where he seems 
to have been unjust. I do not know as a whole that I could state 
anything, but there are individual cases where he has not dealt fairly 
with them, and of course that has spread around among the pupils. 
They all feel it. 

The Chairman. They take that view of it, do they, that he has been 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes; I think perhaps you could get a better 
idea of this by speaking to the children about that. They know more 
about it. 

The Chairman. How about the employees ? Have there been com- 
plaints about injustice to them on the part of the superintendent — 
that is, against the supermtendent ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Why, of course, he has his favorites. I do not 
know whether they complam about any unjust treatment or not. 
I know they do not cooperate with him; that is, a great many of them 
do not, anci they have no respect for him. There are a certain few 
that do. 

The Chairman. Do 3'ou know of any instances where pupils of this 
school have been confined in the county j ail recently ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How many ? 

]\Irs. La Flesche. There were one or two girls, I think, and several 

The Chairman. Do you know upon whose complaint they were 
Confined i 

Mrs. La Flesche. I do not. 

The Chairman. Who are they ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. One girl by the name of ; I do^not re- 
member her fh'st name. 

The Chairman. What was the charge against her i 

Mrs. La Flesche. Immorality, I think. 

Senator Lane. How old a girl is she? 

Mrs. La Flesche. I would say about 17 years old. 

The Chairman. Do you know how long she was conlined in jaiH 

Mrs. La Flesche. \o; I do not. I think there was another one. 
She is a younger girl, and was sent to — not (ih'n Mills, but some 
place up there. 

The Chairman. What is tli(> condition in the school with reference 
to morality among the pupils, Mrs. La Flesche ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. So far as 1 know now, it is bett( r than last year. 

The Chairman. What was it last year S (Jood or hiul ( 

Mrs. La Flesche. Pretty bad, I think. 

The Chairman. Was there general (•om|)laint h( re :i])()ut the con- 
dition in that particular S 


Mrs. La Flesche. No— — 

The Chairman. General discussion ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Well, I did not hear very much about that. 

The Chairman. When did the improvement in the morals be^-in? 
When did you first observe it ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Last fall, when they had their change of disci- 
plmarians and matrons, I think then Mr. Friedman began to coop- 
erate with his disciplinarians and matron. Before that there was no 
cooperation at all. There was open warfare 

Senator Lane. Who was the matron formerly? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Miss Jennie Gaither; it is now Miss Ridenour. 

Senator Lane, Wliere is Miss Gaither now ? 

Mrs. I^A Flesche. Down at Phoenix, Ariz. 

The Chairman. Who was disciplinarian last year? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Mr. Henderson and Mr. Rudy. Mr. Rudy lives 
in town, and Mr. Henderson lives at Cherokee, N. C. 

Senator Lane. Now, these girls that were in jail. How did they 
come to be sent to jail? Was tliat by request of the superintendent 
here, or complaint from the outside^ ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. I don't know just how. It must have come 
from here, because there was no complaint from outside. 

Senator Lane. In cases of immorality among girls, can you not 
take care of them here instead of sending them to jail? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Why, I sliould think so. That does not come 
under my department. 

Senator I^^ane. Or the institution — in a general way, you would 
know, wouldn't you ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. I have heard something about it, but I do not 
know definitely about those things. Those meetings and those 
doings were done by Miss Ridenour, and Mr. Friedman, and Mr. 
Stauffer, and Mr. Denny, and Mr. McKean, and Mr. Kensler. Those 
are tlie faculty, and they had meetings there quite often in Mr. 
Friedman's office, and they would conduct the affairs. 

Senator Lane. Are these what they call incorrigible girls, hard to 
manage, head strong, willful chikh'en ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Why, I do not know. 

Senat/or Lane. Do you know them at all personally? 

Mrs. TvA Flesche. I just know of them. I do not know them 

Senator Lane. How many girls are there here? 

Mrs. liA Flesche. There must be sometliing like 265 or 270. I 
deal principally with those that are going out in tlie country and 
coming back. 

Senator Lane. Those girls that you handle outside, how do you 
find thos(^ ? Are they good girls ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. 

Senator Lane. Are they amenable to advice and kind treatment? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir; 1 think so: the m;ijority of them are. 
There are girls — there were a nun)ber })(Mha])s that were jjlaced out 
that should not have gone, ])ecause they were not good girls: they 
were ineorrii2,ible, and they sliould have been kept here. 

Senator Lane. Sending them out that way, an incoiTigi)>lc girl is 
liable to get into trouble, is slie ■; 

Mrs. La FLES("ni:. Yes. 


Senator Lane. That is what they say? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir; and that is what I protested agahist, 
but it did not make any difference. The result of that was we had 
8 or 10 cases of runaways, girls rujining away from their good homes, 
and they were that class of girls. Our better girls do not do anything 
like that. 

Senator Lane. Wliat became of them afterwards? 

Mrs. La Flesche. They returned, most of them, and v/ere brought 
back here to the school. 

Senator Lane. And they are back in here now? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. 

Senator Lane. Do they behave themselves now since thev came 
back ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. So far as I know. 

The Chairman. Mrs. La Flesche, is there a state among the pupils 
here bordering on insurrection ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. In 3'our opinion, do you ihluk it is liable to 
become flagrant? 

Mrs. La Flesche. I certainly do. 

The Chairman. What do you tliink is the remedy for it. if you 
have one ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. The only remedy now is to remove the superin- 
tendent. It has gone too far. 

The Chairman. Yon think it is l)C}-ond his ])ower to restore 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes; he jiever in the wide work! couJd get their 

The Chairman. Is he lacking then in the confidence and respect 
of the pupils generally ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. What do you mean by "insurrecticn." Senator? 
Defying ivuthority? 

The Chairman. Yes; open rel'ellion. 

Keprcsentetiv^e Stephens. These girls you spoke f f as being sent 
home at the time this came under your personal observation, did 
they defy him at that time, and if so, what did he do when they 
defied him ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. I really do not know the real cause for sending 
them home. 

Representative Stephens. Y'ou do not knov/ the cause? 

Mrs. La Flesche. No; I do not know. I do not wish to state 
that, becairse I might not get it straight. 

Representative Stephens. What did he request them to do that 
they refused to do ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know. 

Senator Lane. Mrs. La Flesche said that these were girls that were 
going to see these other girls off, and he ordered them to quarters 
and they refused to go. 

Representative Stephens. What did he do to those girls then? 
■ Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know what he did. Thoy just stayed 
there on the campus. I do not laiow whether they were disciplined 
after that or not. 


Senator Lane. He has the powci" and authority to see that they 
do go to quarters ? 

Mrs, La Flesche. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. Is he merely good natured and careless, or — in that 
case how was it ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. He seems to lack— he lacks something; I don't 
know what it is. 

Senator Lane. Backbone? 

Mrs. La Flesche. He lacks the power to control. He just, does 
not have it. 

Representative Carter, Executive abihty; is that it? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes; he does not have it. When I was a 
student here we would no more think of defying Gen. Pratt — when 
Gen. Pratt would tell us to do something we would go and do it in a 
hurry. But with Mr. Friedman, not any of them seem to care any- 
thing about him. They just seem to laugh in his face and walk on. 

The Chairman. Do they ridicule him? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. 

The Chairman. Do you know of their getting u]> a petition and 
sending it to Congressman Rupley ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. I know — that is, I heard of it. 

The Chairman. That is one evidence of insubordination and dis- 
satisfaction that you regard as general throughout the school? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. 

The Chairman. I think that is all. 

Representative Carter. I want to ask a few ciuestions. 

Representative Stephens. I want to ask a question or two. Have 
any of them complained that they did not get their money when they 
came in ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. 

Representative Stephens. How many? 

Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know, but they find many complaints. 

Representative Stephens. You have no authority to investigate or 
say anything about it, but you know they have made those com- 
plaints ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. The money comes in from the country 
and I turn it over to Mr. Miller, and further than that 1 have not any 
control over it. 

Representative Stephens. Have you ever traced U]) any of those 
individual cases where the money coming in from the country and 
through you was turned in here, to know whether the student did get 
any of it or not ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. I looked up one case — John Jackson or 
Jacob Jackson. He is a boy that lived in my home in Michigan. He 
wrote to me asking about his money, so I went to Mr. Miller and 
asked why John could not get his money. He said it was on account 
of some ruling of the Indian Department in regard to individual 
Indian moneys; that only a certain amount could be allowed during 
the year. 

Representative Stephens. How much was due him, if yon know? 

Mrs. ]jA Flesche. I do not rememl)er just exactly, but the figures 
can be obtained 

Representative Stephens. Th(\v kee}) books, do they? 

Mrs. La Flesche. ^'es. 


Representative Stephens. Do you keep any check on your work 
to know how much is turned over to them ? 

Mrs. La Flesghe. Yes. 

Representative Stephens. Can you look that up ? 

Mrs. La Flesghe. Yes. 

Representative Stephens. When was that? 

Mrs. La Flesghe. When did the boy write? 

Representative Stephens. Yes; that boy turned in the money to 
you and failed to get it. 

Mrs. La Flesghe. The boy went home last August or September. 
He spent the summer out in the country, and each month the man 
he was working for sent me his wages, and it was turned in to the 
bank, to Mr. Miller. Then after that he went to his home, and about 
a month ago he wrote me asking for the money, and I went to Mr, 
Miller to find out, and that was what I got. 

The Chairman. Were any of the children disciplined for making 
complaints against the management here ? 

Mrs. La Flesghe. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How many, and what was done ^\'ith them? 

Mrs. La Flesghe. Why, one girl was sent home. 

The Chairman, Who was she ? 

Mrs. La Flesghe. . 

The Chairman. Do you know where she is from? 

Mrs. La Flesghe. She is from Wisconsin, I think. And I heard 
that Gus Welch was considered a leader among the boys. I do not 
know that he was sent home, but he went home anyway. 

Representative Charter. Gus is not here now? 

Mrs. La Flesghe. No; I think you can get him, Mr. Carter. 

Representative Carter. Mrs. La Flesche, you stated that the rail- 
road fare for the outing students was paid by the people who took 
them into their homes, and the students paid their own fare when 
they returned ? 

Mi-s. La Flesghe. Yes. 

Representative Carter. Is that always true? 

Mrs. La Flesghe. Yes. 

Rei^resentative Carter. Is it not a fact that funds are sometimes 
used from the ap])ro]iriation for the school for tliat purpose ? 

Mrs. La Flesghe. Not that I know of. 

Re])resentativp Carter. Now, we make an apj)ro])riation every 
year by Congi-oss for that purpose. 

Mrs. La Flesghe. For the outing ? 

Re])resentative Carter. Taking children to and from the outings 
to and from liomes on the outing sAstem. 

Mrs. I^a Flesghe. I do not know an\'thing about it. 

Re})resentative Carter. I wanted to ask you how many girls you 
said were jicre ? 

Mrs. La Flesghe. I think about 205 or 270. 

Re]>resentative Carter. How many boys ? 

Mi-s. La Flesche. I do not know 

Rejuesentative Carter. Do you know what the enrollment was ? 

Mrs. l^A Flesghe (continuhig). I think, between 700 and SOO. 

Re])resentative Carter. What was the enridhuent last year ? Do 
you know ? 

Mrs. La Flesghe. I do not know. 


Representative Carter. But you know the average, don't you? 

Mrs. La Flesche. No. 

Representative Carter. Or the per capita cost ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. No; I do not know those things. Mr. Meyer 
would be able to tell you that. 

Representative Carter. Now, Mrs. La Flesche, I think you can 
give us a little clearer statement as to the cause of this bad discipline 
here if you would refresh your memory. There must bo some direct 
cause for it outside of the fact that the superintendent has not 
executive ability. 

Mrs. La Flesche. The children do not like him. 

Representative Carter. They do not respect him ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. No; they do not like him; they do not respect 

Representative Carter. Do you know why they do not respect 
him ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. I think one of the things is that he misrepresents 
things — • — 

Representative Carter. Those are the things we want to know. 

Mrs. La Flesche. He misrepresents things. 

Representative Stephens, miat do you mean by that — that he 
misrepresents tilings ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. For instance, we received a boy from the West, 
James Holy Eagle or Holy Elk. He is a young man about 17 of 18 
years old and a good musician. He came hero last fall and entered 
the band and orchestra. He is one of the leaders now. Well, in the 
papers frequently you read where James Holy Eagle, a pure-blood 
Indian, just arrived from the West, wa-; placc-d in the band, and was 
an expert musician, or something like that, and the inference is that 
he received that during his short stay here. That is the idea — to give 
out a good sounding article. 

Senator Lane. Boosting the school ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes; and it is that way in everything. 

Representative Carter. Well, iVIrs. La Flesche, are there any rea- 
sons why they should not respect Air. or Mrs. Friedman? We want 
you to be perfectly plain with us. 

Mi's. La Flesche. I do not think— he is not a fatherly, you know. 
They go to him, for instance —there is a time when a child feels that 
they like to have a talk with a mother or father, and perhaps a boy 
will go to him and ask him something, and he will say "Go to jVIrs. 
La Flesche,'' or "Go to Mr. Meyer." They will come to us, and, of 
course, we can not decide. There are certain things that are not in 
oi;r power to clecide; and tJiey feel hurt because he does not come 
closer to them. 

Representative Carter. Is his coniluct bad in anyway before them i 

Mrs. La Flesche. I do not think 

Representative Carter. Has he any bad habits? 

Mrs. La Flesche. I do not think that he has a good inliuence, but 
not any bad habits that I know of. I could not say that he was bad. 

Represent ative Carter. He has not any bad habits ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Not that I know of. 

Representative Carter. Have you ever had any difference with 
Mr. l^ricdman ? 


Mrs. La Flesche. Xo; I have never had. 

Representative Carter. There is no animosity? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Nothing at all. So far as I am concerned, he is 
friendly with me. I have notliing against him. 

Representative Carter. Is he addicted to the use of whisky? 

Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know that. 

Representative Carter. You do not know whether he has any 
habits of that character at all? 

Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know anything about it 

vSenator Lane. What you mean is that he is not responsive to 
cliildren ? 

I^Irs. La Flesche. Yes; he just turns them over to somebody else. 

Representative Carter. Do you consider anybody else responsible 
for the bad discipline here except Mr. Friedman ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. No; I do not. 

Representative Carter. There are no other influences in the 
school ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know of any, Mr. Carter. 

Representative Carter. Indian children, as a rule, are not very 
difficult to control, are they ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. No. 

Representative Carter. Haven't you always found tlieni much 
more easy to control than white children ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. I feel certain that if we had a head here 
that would take an interest in the pupils, that they could care for 
and respect, I think there would be no trouble. 

Representative Carter. Who can tell us about the girls ? 

Mrs. La Flesche. I should think. Miss Ridenour. 

Representative Carter. I mean the girls you spoke of as having 
been sent home for some cause. 

Mrs. La Flesche. ]Miss Ridenour ought to be the one to tell. She 
knows those. 

The Chairman. We thank you very much, Mrs. La Flesche. 

(Thereupon, at 5.30 o'clock p. m., a recess was taken until 6.15 
o'clock p. m.) 

AFTER recess. 

At the expu'ation of the recess the commission reassembled. 

The Chairman. A number of young men students in the school 
are present, and I am informed by Inspector Linnen that they rep- 
resent the male pupils in the school. 

Inspector Linnen. Gentlemen of the committee, I have to state 
that since I came here on this mvestigation a large number of the 
student body, both boys and gu'ls, have requested of me permission 
to hold meetings, at which time they would select members of their 
student body who would be representative of them to ajrpear before 
me or before your commission to state their grievances. I gave them 
permission to appoint such a committee, and the boys are now here 
present, with one exception. They have stated that the matters 
which they desire to complain of are, fu"st, laxity of discij)line; sec- 
ond, unjust expulsion of students without reason and the withholding 
of some that should be expelled; third, misrepresentation of the 
school to the public and to the authorities in Washington; fourth, 

35601— PT 11—14 2 


insanitary conditions in the school; fifth, insufficient quantity and 
quality of food; and, sixth, unjust punishment. 

(All the witnesses present were thereupon duly sworn b}' the 


Mr. Chase. May I have notes ? 

The Chairman. You may proceed and make your statement. 

Mr. Chase. Mr. Friedman has expelled many students 

The Chairman. One moment. A number of young gentlemen are 
present here with you, and I desire to know whether you purport to 
represent the student body in the Carlisle Institute. 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And if so, upon what authority you appear before 
the commission; what authority from the student body? 

Mr, Chase. At a meeting of the male students of this institution 
they appointed a committee. The first time a committee of four 
was appointed, but after an interview with Mr. Linnen they decided 
to have eight at least, and we called another meeting, and there was 
eight, the committee which is here now, with the exception of one 

The Chairman. Now you may proceed and submit the matters of 
which complaint is made by the student body which you represent, 
and all the facts and circumstances in connection with it tliat are 
within your knowledge. 

Mr. Chase. Mr. Friedman has expelled a great number of students 
from this institution. Many have been expelled with, just cause, 
while there have been others who have not had a just cause for which 
to be expelled. I have the names of about 26 students who have been 
expelled since last March. The greatest cause for expelling these 
students, those that deserved it, is that boys and girls have met at 
the various times. And the student body as a whole, they wish to 
have such students expelled from the school. We do not want to 
have such students as that. They held meetings with the girls when 
that should not be. 

On the other hand, there have been a great number of students who 
have been expelled unjustly. For instance, there is Montreville Yuda. 
At one time ne was very highly thought of by Mr. Friedman. Mr. 
Friedman thought Yuda was all right. 

That was the time they had a play here, entitled ''The Captain of 
Plymouth," and Mr. Yuda had the chief part in this play. He was 
a boy — I can say that I believe he is the smartest boy I have seen 
from this school — that is, that has not went any further in the out- 
side schools than this school. He was very higlily thought of by Mr. 
Friedman. He is a boy of influence, and stood for the right. A 
few of the disciplinarians and IMi*. Dietz, they started to bring charges 
against Montreville that he had been spending nights — -they brought 
charges against Yuda being at town and being at the school only 
about once a week. When Yuda found out about this he went to 
Mr. Friedman — he went to the disciplinarian and asked the disci- 
plinarian if the charges had been made. The disciplinarian said yes, 
but why punish a boy when he is not guilty ? Yuda, he wanted these 
charges to be proven, and he went to Mr. Friedman and he asked him. 


He said, "Do you make these charges against me?" Mr. Friedman 
said, "Yes, sir.'' He said, "You prove them." He said, "We don't 
need to prove them; we know it. You don't have to prove them." 
Yuda said, "You let me prove it." Mr. Friedman said, "No, you 
don't need to prove that." Yuda said to him, "What kind of justice 
do you call that? Are you going to stand by the disciplinarians 
when they bring cases to you that way and want to punish me for 
unjust causes?" And he said, "Yes; I \vall stand by my disci- 
plinarians to the letter 'T,' whether they are right or wrong." 

This statement came from Montrc^ville Yuda. Montreville told 
him, "You take my name off the roll." He said, "No, sir; I will not 
do any such thing, but I \\i\\ consider you later." 

Yuda stayed around here a couple of days, and I think he went to 
Washington to see some one. I did not find out who it was. When 
he came back to Carlisle he came back to the grounds. In the mean- 
time Mr. Friedman had heard about this. 

The Chairman. About what ? 

Mr. Chase. About Montreville going to Washington, and he gave 
lum two or three hours to get off the grounds. He said, ''You leave 
the school and leave the to^\^l, and not come back." 

The Chairman. What are the facts \\-ith reference to the charges 
against Yuda? Do you know what the facts are? Was he absent 
from the school the greater part of the time? 

Mr. Chase. They claimed that he stayed here about one night of 
the week. 

The Chairman. What are the facts? 

Mr. Chase. It is not true; he stayed here more than that. 

The Chairman. Was he away from liome any considerable time ? 

Mr. Chase. Not a great part. I suppose he was away once or 
t\\ace in a week probably. 

The Chairman. What was he doing away, if you know? 

Mr. Chase. I am sure I do,n't know. 

Senator Lane. Is that against the rules? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. He had broken the rules then ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. All right. Are there any other cases of expulsion 
of pupils which the body which you represent feel were wrongful ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. Louis Schweigman was exi)elled on January 9 
of this year. He returned to school this fall and started to work for 
Mr. Whitwell, the princi])al teacher. He worked in the office a con- 
siderable time, and Mr. Whitwell said he is one of the l^est boys he 
had v.-ork in his office. Pie worked there a good deal of the time, 
and finally Mr. Friedman wrote a letter to Mr. McKean and said, ''I 
want you to take Louis Schweigman out of Mr. Whitwell's office." 

Representative Carter. Who is Mr. ^Vhitwell, and who is Mr. 
McKean ? 

Mr. Chase. ]VIr. McKean is head disciplinarian, and Mr. Whitwell 
is the principal teacher. He had Louis Schweigman removed from 
the principal teacher's office to work half a day. He did, and that 
did not suit Mr. Friedman, so he had him taken out the wliole day, 
and Louis was taking sign painting and he had to study hard to get it. 
Finally they claimed that he was loafing, and I knOw for a fact that 
this boy was studying this sign painting. He had a book that he got 


from the iiisiiudor in painting, Mr. Cams, and he was studying this^ 
and they cdaimed that he was a loafer. 

They threatened to expel him, so he wrote to Washington, and they 
arranged to s^tid him home. He had A\Titten to his father for money, 
so Mr. ]\IcKean got him ready, and they taken him to Harrisburg. 
He got on the train at Harrisburg, and as soon as the train started he 
got off on the other side — or he did not go very far — and he got work 
there. He worked for a little wliile and he came down to Grayson; 
that is down here about 6 miles, and he is working for a man he had 
worked there for before while under the school. We think that is 
very unjust on the part of Mr. Friedman to make that boy sacrifice 
what might be his life's work. 

Senator Lane. Where is his home? 

Mr. Chase. South Dakota. 

The Chairman. What are the personal habits of Yuda and 
Schweigman ? 

Mr. Chase. Well, personal habits — there is notlimg disgraceful in 
theii' habits that I know of. I do not think either of them drink, 
but I know Yuda smokes, and hke that. 

The Chairman. How old is Yuda? 

Mr. Chase. I could not say how old he is; probably 22 or 23. 

The Chairman. How old is Schweigman ? 

Mr. Chase. About 20. 

The Chairman. Go ahead. 

Mr. Chase. Mr. Schweigman came back here, intending to learn 
something about his trade, and at the same time he might have 
planned that for his life's work, to be a painter, or sometliing, be- 
cause I know he was not very far advanced in books. To send him 
away that way, it might mean that he would give it up or change the 
boy's whole life. 

I have another one. Harrison Smith 

Senator Lane. Where is he from ? 

Mr. Chase. From West De Pere, Wis. Harrison Smith went 
home when the home party went last year — the 1913 home party. 
And in this hall Mr. Friedman called the boys that were going home 
together to give them a httle talk before they left the institution. 
He got them up here and got to talking to them, and he says, ''Harri- 
son Smith," he says, "jMr. Smith, you have been disloyal to tliis 
school. Now you are going home. I don't care what becomes of 
you. I don't care even to say good-bye to you. You may be 
excused." And this boy is a graduate, and is one of the most influ- 
ential boys in our Y. M. C. A., and is one of the most thought of boys. 

The Chairman. Did you hear him when he said that? 

Mr. Chase. No, sir. 

The Chairman. How did you know he said it? 

Mr. Chase. I heard several of the boys that were in the room. 

The Chairman. Is there any one here ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. So Harrison Smith took his hat and he left 
the room. It certainl}' must be he was a good boy, or else Mr. 
Friedman was doing wrong in giving a diploma to a boy that did 
not deserve it. 

The Chairman. Are there other cases of wrongful expidsion ? 

Mr. Chase. Philip Cornelius; he is an Oneida from Wisconsin, 
lie wont to Chambersl)urg, Pa., under the outing system, am] worked 


as a carpenter there. His time was up aiul ho wanted to got a 
release. Now, he told mo this — Philip told mo. 1 wont home with 
him on the 2oth of June last. I went home last summer and I rode 
with him to Chicago. He told me that he went to Chambersburg 
and was working as a carpenter, and he came back here and wanted 
to get his release and go back to Chambersburg and make his own 
livelihood. Now, as it is, Mr. Friedman does not want them to do 
that. He don't want them to be in this part of this country unless 
they are under the school rules. Mr. Friedman called him up to 
the office. They had a little talk and they put him in the guard- 
house. He was also a leader in our Y. M. C. A. and the captain of 
Troop C, and one of the best boys in our quarters. 

The Chairman. Do you know why he was put in the guardhouse ? 
Why did they claim he was put in the guardhouse '? 

Mr. Chase. As I understand, he was going to go back on his own 
hook, going back to Chambersburg, and they just kept him in the 
guardhouse for three or four days, and then shipped him home — let 
him go home. 

— • is a young lady. I don't know whether to leave 

that to the women or not. 

The Chairman. If you know anything about it you can state it. 

Mr. Chase. January 14, 1914, ; — was expelled. Some- 
time ago one of the societies gave a reception. She did not go. I 
am not sure whether she went or not, but the next day the matron 
she complained about being tired to the girls, and she had been 
going around the rooms and jerking the girls out of bed, and one 
thing and another. They go to sleep with the other girls, of coui-se, 
when they are alone. It is natural for the girls to be afraid. So 

she shook up the girls. — — was an officer in one of the 

troops. She stepped out of the troop, and she said, "Miss Ridenour, 
if you were in the room where you belong you would not be tired." 
Miss Ridenour said, ''Well, there is some officers here that are not 

fit to be officers." So she stepped into ranks, and later on 

she went back to her place as an officer. 

In the meantime, on New Year's Day, I think it was, the girls 
wanted to go skating. They have been rather strict about letting 
the boys and girls talk to each other. The girls wanted to go skating, 

and it seemed as though — was a kind of leader, and they wantod 

to get up a petition to see whether they could go skating. I am not 
sure whether they went or not; I was not here at the time. 

Finally one morning she was going to the schoolroom, on January 
14. She was going to school with the girls, and she saw the matron 

standing at the bottom of the stairs. The matron said, " , I 

want to see you. " She said, " I have waited long enough, , for 

an apology. '" She wanted the girl to apologize to lier for her actions. 

■ — said she would not apologize. She said, " I have waited long 

enough for this apology, and Mr. Friedman and I have decided to 

send you home. '' ' said, "All right. " So one of the matrons — 

there is three matrons in the girls' quarters - one of the matrons 

went up with — to pack her trunk, and stood at the door. When 

she was ready they brought her downstairs and kept her in the office 
and did not allow her to see anyone before she wen home. They 
kept her in the office and ])ulled down the curtains, and would not 
even let her look out. 


The Chairman. What reason was assigned for sending her home ? 

Mr. Chase. On the official reports that were made by the matron — 
and, of course, she must have authority from the superintendent — 
they had her registered, "Sent home as a graduate." 

The Chairman. As a graduate ? 

Mr. Chase. Graduated, and sent home. At this time she was going 
to the business department. She was a graduate here of last year's 
class. She was going to the business department and trying to learn 
something so she could do something for herself in the world. The 
business students took it up. 

Two or three of the young men in there went to Mr. Friedman and 

asked him w hy he sent home. Well, he told them some little 

story, and he said, "Well, she is a graduate." If that applies to her 
it will apply to more of them in there because the school rules are 
that no one shall go to that business school unless they can pass the 
senior exnminations. 

Senator Lane. All you know about tliis case is hearsay, isn't it? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. One of the young men is here that took the 
petition to Mr. Friedman. 

The Chairman. I wish, Mr. Chase, when you make a statement of 
matters that are within your personal knoAvledge and observation 
you would say so, and when you are referring to matters that you 
have no personal knowledge of, I wish you would mention that. 
And it is l)est to let those v/ho have personal knowledge of matters to 
testify to them, because you may be misinformed, you know. 

Go ahead and make any further statement. You wish to testify 
about the other complaints? 

Mr. Chase. I want to say something else about this expulsion. I 
know for a fact that Mr. Friedman has practically expelled these 
students, and a great many of them who have been expelled have been 
registered "home on leave," "failed to return," or "dropped." 
Now, if they are expelled they ought to put it on there "expelled." 

The Chairman. Do you mean to say that he makes a fraudulent 
and false record? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. That is an important statement, Mr. Chase, and I 
would like to know what specific proof you have of that statement. 
What pupUs have been actually expelled and sent home from the 
school that were marked on the record, by his or anyone else's 
direction in the school, as havmg been dropped or faQed to return, 
or anything of that sort, other than the mere statement ? 

Mr. Chase. James Baker was expelled. On the report he is " home 
on leave; failed to return." Bakei was expelled outright. He gave 
him about three or four hours to get away from the grounds. 

Senator Lane. How long ago was that ? 

Mr. Chase. I forget how long that has been. It must have been 
15 months; a year ago, at least. 

Representative Stephens. Where was he from ?* 

Mr. Chase. North Dakota. 

The Chairman. Do you know what he was expelled for ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What was it ? 

Mr. Chase. He had written to his a»ent for money, as I understand 
it. Now, I am not certain about mis, but tliis is the story that 


came to nie. He wrote to his agent for money, and his agent ignored 
his letter, and he wrote a letter, which is businesslike. At the same 
time it was imjradent. Tlie agent wrote to Mr. Friedman about this, 
and Mr. Friedman called him «[:> there; and eTames, although he was 
not n voter or anything, he believed in socialism. 

Representative Siepiiens. How old was he? 

Mr. Chase. I could not swear to his age; about 20, I suppose. 

Tile Chairisiax. Go aheaci. 

Mr. Chase-. He was expelled. He says, "We don't want any such 
student as that here." So James got ready and he went home. He 
had him marked, "Tune out; failed to return." 

Philip Cornelius was exj^elled and the}^ had him marked, ''Time 
out." Louis SchAveigman was marked "Dropped," although he was 
practically expelled. 

The Chairman. You are speaking about their being marked on 
the record falsely or erroneously. What record do you refer to ? 

Mr. Chase. Why, the quarterly reports that are made out in the 
principal teacher's oflice; the reports that are sent from the quarters. 
That is, Avhen anyone leaves or comes to this school a report is sent 
from the quarters — girls' quarters, large boys', or small boys'. 

The Chairman. Sent where ? 

Mi. Chase. To the principal teacher's office. This report, ■ I 
should think, would come from Friedman, telling whether they went 
home or on leave or what. 

The Chairman. Who keeps that record ? 

!Mr. Chase. I do not know whether there is two of them or not, but 
he is on that record. 

The Chairman. WTio keeps it ? 

Mr. Chase. Mr. Whitwell, the principal teacher. 

Representative Carter. Who makes the record ? 

Mr. Chase. The principal teacher, and he has two stenographers 

Representative Carter. Does he make the entry himself? 

Mr. Chase. No, sir. 

Representative Carter. Who makes the entry ? 

Mr. Chase. I do not quite understand. 

Representative Carter. You say the principal teacher gets the 
report. Who does it come from ? 

Mr. Chase. It comes from the quarters to him and then to Mr. 

Representative Carter. From what quarters ? 

Mr. Chase. Any quarters — large or small boys or girls. 

Representative Carter. Who does make it out? 

Mr. Chase. The disciphnarian. 

Senator Lane. The report would naturally be the superintendent's. 
It would not make any difference who made the entry. 

The Chairman. If he specifically directed it to be done it would 
make a difference, you know, as to the moral turpitude of it. 

You do not know of your own knowledge of any circumstances in 
wdiich the superintendent personally directed these false entries to 
be made ? 

Mr. Chase. Not personally. 

Senator Lane. That report becomes an official matter of record 
here ? 


Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. On the roster? 

Mr. Chase. On the quarterlj reports. I am not sure whether 
the quarterly report is sent to Washington or not. I know they make 
out a reiDort which is called quarterly. 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact, it is sent to the Indian Bureau, 
isn't it? 

Senator Lane. It must be, yes. 

Mr. Chase. Harrison Smith, June 16, 1913. He was officially re- 
ported a graduate, but he is practically expelled, because Mr. Fried- 
man said he did not care to say good by to him or anything; he just 
sent him away. 

Senator Lane. He had his diploma? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir: Mr. Friedman signed his diploma. 

The Chairman. He is the one that }-ou say was called into this 
room and lectured by Mr. Friedman ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And told he had been disloyal to the school all 
the way through ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And yet he permitted him to graduate i 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. 

I want to say something about Yuda. Yuda had gone to town 
after Mr. Friedman told him to leave the town; this is the statement 
which was made by Mr. Yuda. He told me this morning. He runs 
a little store over here. He told me that when he was ex]>elled he 
went home. His home is in New Jei"sey some j^lace, or New York 

The Chairman. Mr. Yuda is going to be liere, and he can iDake 
that statement. Is there anything further? 

Mr. Chase. That is about all I have on ex])ulsion. 

The Chairman. All right; go ahead on your next subject. 

Mr. Chase. Expulsion is my subject. Each one has a subject. 

The Chairman. Just a minute. How long have you been in the 
school ? 

Mr. Chase. I came here on the 15th of October, 1911. 

The Chairman. Wliat class are you in now ? 

Mr. Chase. Junior. I graduate with the class of 191.5. 

The Chairman. Have you ever had any personal diflerence with 
Supt. Friedman ? 

Mr. Chase. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Have you ever been disciplined for any alleged 
misconduct since you have been in the school ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Was it serious ? 

Mr. Chase. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Have you any personal animosity toward Mr. 
Friedman ? 

Mr. Chase. I do not quite understand. 

The Chairman. Have you any personal animosity toward Mr. 
Friedman ? Any hatred of him ? 

Mr. Chase. Not personally. 

The Chairman. How does the student body regard Mr, Friedman, 
as a whole ? 


Mr. Chase. The student body as a whole don't think very much 
of him. He is a man that is not true to his word. 

The Chairman. Is that the way he is regarded ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir; by tlie students. 

Tlie Chairman. Do you know anything about the discipUne 
generally in the school on account of the laclv of respect for Mr. 
Friedman ? Does that tend to create bad discipline in the school i 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Have you seen instances of insubordination 
among the pupils displayed toward Mr. Friethnan ( 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Will you tell us about when and what they were ? 

Mr. Chase. One night he made an inspection of the large boys' 
quarters. He said he came through to see how conditions were in 
the rooms, but the boys seemed to think there was some other rea- 
son, because that w^as the time about New Years, when the boys — 
it seemed like they were on a strike. He came through, and he said 
he wanted to see how the conditions were in the large boys' quar- 
ters, and consequently somebody turned off the lights, and they 
threw shoes at him, and one thing and another, and that is the way 
it will be until something changes. 

The Chairman. Is that feeling general among the pupils? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir; among the boys especially. I don't know 
about the girls. They jeer — they used to, and they do yet, but not 
nearly as much. 

The Chairman. What do they say? 

Mr. Chase. "Who let him out?" and one thing and another like 

The Chairman. Do they call him any names ? 

Mr. Chase. I could not say any names, only "The old Jew" and 
"Damned Jew." 

The Chairman. Do they call him that publicly ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And in his hearing? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir; they called him that when he was in the 
large boys' quarters. The report comes to me that after he made the 
inspection of the large boys' quarters he went to the girls" quarters 
and had the girls at assembly, and told them he found a young man 
over there in bed with his clothes on in bed. That is the report — • — 

The Chairman. You mean, found a boy in the girls' bed ? 

Mr. Chase. No; found the boys in their buikling in bed with their 
clothes on. 

The Chairman. That is about what would happen if they were up 
after hours, isn't it? They would just about be scooting off to bed 
with their clothes on ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Have you participated in these acts of insubordina- 
tion toward the superintendent ? 

Mr. Chase. I did at one time. 

The Chairman. When was that, Mr. Chase? 

Mr. Chase. Probably a month and a half ago. 

The Chairman. What occasion was that ? 

Mr. Chase. I was alone with another boy. Andrew Condon was 
the bov's name. 


Representative Stephens. What did you do ? 

Mr, Chase. I ring the bell at 4 o'clock. I was coming from the 
dining room and was out on the porch. I do not know what tempted 
me to do it, but I took a pasteboard box, and I stood up on the third 
floor porch, and I let it sail like that, and it hit him in the back. 

The Chairman. You don't think you were doing right then ? 

Mr. Chase. I don't know 

The Chairman. I want to make this statement right here, that the 
Government and this commission in calling you before us is in no sense 
to approve or give countenance to the insubordination which we 
believe, from your statements and other information in our posses- 
sion, has become quite general in this institution. This investigation 
is being conducted for the good of this institution, for the benefit of 
the pupils, and for the school in general, and not for the purpose of 
wreaking vengence on anyone who happens to have become the victim 
of the contempt or disrespect of the pupils in school. We are here to 
get information and facts, and to do what we can to improve condi- 
tions. But the students in this school must not get the idea that 
Congress, or this commission of Congress, regards them as wholly 
blameless for this widespread insubordination. It is simply a ques- 
tion with us as to what is going on and why, and what is the best 
remedy for it. 

Now, have you any further statement to make about that that was 
not made ? 

Mr. Chase. No, sir. 

The Chairman. It was stated in the beginning that tliis committee 
represents the student body. How many students were in that 
meeting that selected this committee ? 

Mr. Chase. I should say 200. I could not say just how many 
large boys there are; but there were 225, I should judge. This hall 
was full; that is, of male students. 

The Chairman. Do you know anything about whether there is 
much drinking among the bo^s or not ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir; there is. 

The Chairman. Do many of them become intoxicated at times ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What efforts are made by the management of the 
school to stop that, and how do they handle that, Mr. Chase ? 

Mr. Chase. I do not know only one time that they tried to put a 
stop to it. They had an assistant quartermaster here and some 
policemen that were working, and they tried to play detective. They 
took a bunch of boys down town and gave them a dollar a piece, and 
told them to go and buy some whisky. That was by Mr. Friedman's 
orders I presume. They told the cops not to bother them, but the 
cops did not want to see anybody get in trouble, and they went 
around ajid told the saloonkeepers to be wise. 

The Chairman. Do the saloon keepers sell the Indian boys liquor 
ordinarily ? Is that the way they get it ? 

Mr. Chase. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Where do they get the liquor? 

Mr. Chase. They have bootleggers mostly. 

The Chairman. 'Is there a feeling of sympathy among the student 
body for that kind of business ? Do the students generally connive 
at it? 


Mr. Chase. They have tried to j>ut a stop to it. 

The Chairman. Have you any orgajiization among the young men 
lookijig toward tryijig to stop that 'i 

Mr. Chase. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Of course, I suppose, drunkenness or excessive 
drinking, or drinking at all, encourages disorder and lack of discipline? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Just as much as anything can. Do you blame the 
superintejident for this drinking — the frequency of it among the 
pupils ? 

Mr. Chase, Now, I could not hardly answer that. 

Representative Carter. Mr. Chase, this young man, Montreville 
Yuda — did you say he was expelled ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. He was expelled for being down town at 
nights, was he? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir; and Mr. Friedman knew that he was a boy 
that was influential among the other boys. 

Representative Carter. Can you tell the committee what he did 
when he went down town ? 

Mr. Chase. Why, Mr. Dietz and Mr. Denny, they originated the 
charges that he had been staying at undesirable places in the city of 

The Chairman. Was that true ? 

Mr. Chase. I am sure that I could not swear to that, but liis 
statement is that it is not true. He told me this, that he had his 
night watches, his section officers, and his troop officers that could 
prove that he was there. 

Representative Carter. But he did stay out from the institution 
some nights during the week ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. About two, you said ? 

Mr. Chase. Probably two. 

Representative Carter. Does your student body approve of him 
doing that ? 

Mr. Chase. They did not know it at the time. 

Representative Carter. Would they approve of it ? 

Mr. Chase. No, they would not; no, sir. 

Representative Carter. Would not your student body think it 
would be for the best interests of the institution if he were disciplined 
for breaking the rules in that manner ? 

Mr. Chase. Your honor, I think there is other things to resort to 
besides expulsion. I think that is the last thing to do. 

Representative Carter. Was he ever given notice about it before 
he was disciplined ? 

Mr. Chase. No, sir. 

Representative Carter. But lie liad violated the rules and was 
expelled ? 

Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. What tribe do you belong to ? 

Mr. Chase. Omaha, of Nebraska. 



TJio Chairman. You were sworn ? 

Mr. (iiBsoN. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. Where is your liome ^ 

My. (riBsoN. ill Arizoiui. 

Senator Lane. What triho do you belong to ^ 

Mr. (iiBsoN. Piiua. 

The (^iiAiRMAN. You iiuiy proceed and make your statenieut. 

Mr. CxiBsoN. 1 have for iny subject the misrepresentation of the 
scliool tJirougli the dilFerent ])a])ers, to the authorities in Washi!;gton, 
and to the ))ublic. I Jiave found that through the scliool catalogue, 
whicli is ])ublislied in— there is one catalogue whi<'h is published in 
about lOOG, and it is circulated among the students out on the reser- 
vations from the office here, and u]) till 1012 they no other new 
catalogue, but the circulation of the (»ld catalogue has done much 
toward bringing students to this school. They have those different 
things which I do not think existed at that time, and in the 1912 
catalogue ther(* are certain things that were put in that catalogue 
that were connected with this school, but are now out of existence. 

The Chairman. Tell us what they are. 

Mr. Gibson. One thing is the harness shop, w^hich has been 

The Chairman. When was that abolished? 

Mr. Gibson. I have no idea when it was abolished. It was out 
of existence when I came, a little over two years ago. 

The Chairman. Is that in the catalogue? 

Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Does it appear to be a part of the school yet? 

Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Published in 1912? 

Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Go ahead. 

Mr. Gibson. Then, another thing is the telegraphy department. 
Well, the telegraphy was in existence up to a year or so ago. That 
is all right. They had the telegraphy department — I mean the school 
catalogue was published when the telegraphy department was here. 

The Chairman. It was all right to publish it, then ? 

Mr. Gibson. Yes. Then there are articles in the catalogue which 
state that the pupils, the young men and young women who should 
attend this school, must be from the age of 14 years old and under 
20, wliich means they should come here between those two ages. 
And yet to-day you can see boys here under that age, not even 10. 
You can see boys here, and girls too. 

The Chairman. Are there any here over 20 ? 

Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir; there are lots of them here over 20. 

The Chairman. You have stated that that relates to the time of 
their coming here ? 

Mr. Gibson. Yos, sir. Of course. I know that common sense 
would tell us that any student wdio has lots of brain, you call it, and 
can go to school at a very early age and acquire an education, they 
would admit him to the departmental grades here. Of course, this 
is duo to the public schools within a short distance of their homes. 
And in this catalogue I notice* that they call a special student — they 


admit tlio students iiere for two yours. They aio supposed to luive 
taken academic courses here, taken the senior examinations and passed 
ready to enter tlie two-year term to take the business course and the 

The Chairman. Are tliere many cases wliere that is not conformed 
to, and tJiose who have not taken the senior examinations are ad- 
mitted to tliat course ? 

Mr. Gibson. I could not say; 1 could not tell you that. But there 
are pupils here that liave come and taken the examinations and 

Next, I want to refer you to the trades. I spoke of the harness 
shop being abolished, and the telegraphy department is abolished. 
Tliere are several connections to the telegraphy department which I 
will bring in later. Photography has also been abolished. There 
has been a general complaint among the boys iu regard to a carpenter 
shop here — the inefficiency of the carpenter shop and the manage- 
ment of it. They say they do not learn enough here, and as a result 
most of them go away disappointed, and yet some of them come here 
just for the purpose of learning the trade. Sometimes they run aw^ay 
or go back. Of course, I can not recall any of them that ran away 
just on account of that, but I have lieard complaints of the manage- 
ment of the shop. 

Next are the farms. ^Ye have two farms and they both together 
■range somewhere in the neighborhood of 311 acres, and it is advertised 
that agriculture is carried on extensively. Of course, it is; but 
again in the catalogue, agriculture, dairying, hog raising, and poultry 
culture are advertised, and I see by their reports that are being 
printed now over in the printing shop it brings the net proceeds of 
S7,283. And there have been recorded on tlie report of the firet 
farm and the second farm — that is the way tliey ai'e distinguished — 
the report is that so many eggs are produced. And yet wlieie those 
eggs go to w^e have no knowledge of. 

Senator Lane. You don't sec them around on vour breakfast 
table ? 

Mr. Gibson. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you mean by that Uiat tht-ro are no eggs pro- 
duced on the farm? 

Mr. Gibson. No, sir; I don't know about that; 1 won't say that 
is a feet. What I am getting at is that vvc don't get theuL 

Senatoi" Lane. They never get any to eat. I su))pose tliey are 
not edible eggs. 

The Chairman. Do you get an}- poik frojii the farms? 

Mr. Gibson. No, sir; very seldouL 

The Chairman. Do you get milk from the farms ? 

Mr. Gibson. No, sir, Wliere we get the food f don't know. Not 
to my knowledge. 

The (Chairman. Have y(m vver had a teacher of agri( ulturi' here? 

Mr. Gibson. Do you mean as a part of the study? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Gibson. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Was that abolihhed ( 

Mr. GiBsoNT. 1 have no knowledges of any such establishment. 

It is stated in one of the catalogues that pupils are brought here 
and whenever they show enough knowledge and training along a 


certain line or occupation here they are allowed to go out and work 
at their different trades. I just want to refer you to a few instances 
which conflicts with those. Now, there were two telegraph depart- 
ments. There were several operators gone out from the telegraphy 
department and took positions, and there was some made good, and 
yet a year last spring there were two telegraph operators, one in the 
Postal Telegraph and one in the Western Union down town — this 
was last spring. I don't know whether there is something the matter 
the administration, but these two operators went in right at the time 
they wxre making good and those operators down town needed them 
the worst — that is, when they were getting on sending and receiving 
messages — and they were taken out of the telegraph offices and 
brought back to the school. An explanation has been asked by 
these two operators, but no definite explanation can be given. 

There is one boy that came here just for the purpose of learning 
telegraphy. This was a boy in the Western Union office. When he 
was taken out of there he was sorely disappointed, and he told Mr. 
Friedman he was going home if he was treated that way. Well, 
the operator in the Western Union office down town got him a posi- 
tion at Trenton, N. J., and ho went there — I think he told me that he 
went there as assistant manager, and yet he had not had sufficient 
training here to take him that far. He done the best he could, but 
he said he could pi-etty nearly come up to the standard of good 
operators, but not quite. So he was obliged to leave and go home. 

'Now, another person that was taken out of a trade was one of the 
boys that is here now. He is an automobile machinist. He is down 
town working in the garage. Right at the time he was learning to 
be a machinist to prepare himself to go out in the world he was taken 
out in a similar ca-.e. He was taken out, and he is here at the school 
nov.-, and a definite explanation has been asked for and he has not 
received it yet. 

I don't know what has been wrong, but last spring — 1 for myself 
have gone down town in ho])es I could get a start in my trade and 
have hovn turned down likemsc. I tried to helj) out the outing 
office by getting myself my own ]>osition. 

The Chairman. \Vliat is your trade ? 

Mr. Gibson. Printing. 1 went out to Mount Holly, Pa., and got a 
position there, and notified the outing office to get permission to go 
out to tliat position, and I was (hniied on the ground that there 
was no boys to be allowed arouiul Carlish^ ;ui<l the vicinity in these 
towns. I don't know why. 

Again, I wont down to Hariisburg and 1 got me a place in the Har- 
risburg Telegraph, and there I was d(>nie(l again, and yet there were 
boys working at that time — when I applied for the positions thase 
boys wei'C down town woi'king as mechanics and some down at Har- 
risburg. 1 don't see any reason why I should not go down there. 

Repn^sentative Stephens. Who (Nniied you that right? 

Mr. Gibson. Mr. Frieihnan. 

Representative Stephf>ns. H(^ (l<Mued you th(> riglit to work there? 

Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. 

Representative Stephens. And g;\v(> no rc^nson for it ^ 

Ml'. Gibson. Nn r(><ison whatever. 

Now, I want t;i ref(M- you about this Y. M. C. A. As a charter mem- 
l)er (if the Y. M. ('. .\. I li;iv(> takon a great d 'al of piich' in this asso- 


elation, and two years ago we had a resident ^reneral secretary here, 
Dr. James W. W. Walker, from Philadelphia . We had our Y. M. C. A. 
flomishing, and it was a good organization, about one of the best 
organizations that was ever connected with this school ; and he was 
training missionaries and field secretaries, and doing all of that, and 
and yet Mr. Friedman, just because he would not — of course, I don't 
know definitely what the trouble was, l)ut he was discharged, and tha 
Y. M. C. A. dissolved — practically dissolved. And we had a paper 
in the interest of the Y. M. C. A. published — published down town and 
edited by the students — and this was discontinued. For the religious 
part of it — why, I don't see anything in that, but I don't think that 
ought to be done. 

The Chairman. How many members did the Y. M. C. A. have when 
it was flourishing ^ 

Mr. Gibson. We had 275 members. 

The Chairman. What was it accomphshing '( What was it doing ? 

Mr. Gibson. Dr. Walker had a class for field secretaries, training 
them for field secretaries to go out to their homes, and one boy went. 

The Chairman. Is it a moral force, a good moral force in the school ? 

Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And there is now no Y. M. C. A. to speak of? 

Mr. Gibson. No, sir. - Wliy, there is a few boys get together, and 
we are trying to establish some kind of a Y. M. C. A., but we can not. 
There are very few in attendance each evening. 

Representative Stephens. Have you any leader? Have you any- 
one to take the ))lace of the man who was discharged ? 

Mr. Gibson. Mr. Friedman has taken that into his hands, and he 
has appointed whoever he pleased. He has appointed Mr. Mann, our 
mathematics teacher, and he has relieved him about two weeks, and 
he has appointed the clerk, Mr. Morris. 

Representative Stephens. Was that Y. M. C. A. a force for good 
among the boys, you say ? 

Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. 

Representative Stephens. What stand did the Y. M. C. A. take 
with reference to the sale of liquor among the boys ? Did they 
endeavor to prevent that ? 

Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. They had just taken steps. It was a young 
organization^ — not quite a year. 

Representative Stephens. Did they discountenance the drinking 
of whisky and bootlegging ? 

Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. 

Representative Stephens. Did this man who was discharged teach 
the boys that it was WTong to drink whisky and to bootleg ? 

Mr. Gibson. Why, he would sometimes take the boys and talk to 
them, and he had a great deal of influence among the boys, such 
influence that they would listen to him whenever he was talking to 

The Chairman. How do the pupils generally regard Mr. Friedman? 
Do they respect him ? 

Mr. Gibson. In a certain way, they do. On account of his author- 
ity they do respect him, but as a whole they do not regard him as a 
man of authority. 

The Chairman. Do you know why that is tru(> ( 

Air. Gibson. I could not sav defiiiitelv whv. 


The Chairman. Do the students generally recognize the necessity 
for disciphne and for authority in the management of the school? 
They understand that, do they? 

Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Now, do you know why it is that he seems to 
have lost the influence that he should have here, if he ever had any ? 

IVIr. Gibson. It is all on account of his management of the school, 
I guess. I do not know just how to put it. 

Representative Stephens. Have you heard them jeer him and 
names called when he was passing by ? 

Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. 

Representative Stephens. How often? 

Mr. Gibson. Whenever they would see him. 

Senator Lane. Did you ever call him any? 

Mr. Gibson. I have, frequently. 

Senator Lane. \^^at did you call him? 

Mr. Gibson. I called him "Jew;" that is about all. 

Senator Lane. Are 3'ou the man that called him a ''damned Jew" ? 

Mr. Gibson. No, sir; I was not. 

The Chairman. Is there any estrangement among the pupils 
generally and Mr. Friedman? Do the pupils generally dislike 
Mr. Friedman ? 

JVIr. Gibson. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. What did you have for dinner to-night? 

Representative Stephens. Yes; give us the biU of fare. 

Senator Lane. What was the bill of fare? Soup 

Mr. Gibson. Sirup. 

Senator Lane. Soup ? 

Mr. Gibson. We didn't have any. 

Senator Lane. What did you have for dinner? 

Mr. Gibson. I forget what we had. Sirup and tea, and prunes 

Senator Lane. Sirup, tea, and prunes 

Mr. Gibson. Bread. 

Senator Lane. Butter? 

Mr. Gibson. No, sir. 

Senator Lane. Potatoes ? 

Mr. Gibson. No, sir. 

Senator Lane. Nothing but sirup ? 

The Chairman. Did 3"ou have any meat? 

Mr. Gibson. Xo, sir; we didn't have any meat. 

Senator Lane. Hold on; let me get that do^\^l. Sirup, tea, prunes, 
and bread ? 

Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. 

Representative Stephens. Any kind of gravy? 

Senator Lane. Did you have gravy? 

A Pupil. Yes; a meat stow, made in a kind of broth. 

Senator Lane. Beef stew, was it? 

A Pupil. Yes. 

Senator Lane. Any vegetables in it ? 

A Pupil. No, sir. 

Senator Lane. What did you have for breakfast this morning? 
Your memory is not good for your meals? 

Mr. Gibson. No, sir. 

Senator Lane. How many prunes did you have for your ration? 


Mr. CiBsoN. I don't remember. 

The Chaprman. Is there complaint here about the food that is 
served ? 

Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Has it improved recently? 

Mr. Gibson. It has improved since Air. Linnen was here. 

The Chairman. Much ? 

Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir; immensely. 

The Chairman. It is better sine ' Inspector Linnen came than it 
was before ? 

Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What is the difference between what it is now and 
what it was before he came ? 

Mr. Gibson. There is another man here can give that. 


The witness was reminded that he had been sworn. 

The Chairman. '\Miere are you from ? 

Mr. Martin. Wisconsm. 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Martin, you may go ahead. 

Mr. Martin. One of the reasons for the discontent in this school 
is that insufficient amomit of food; that is, for us to eat at the meals. 
Bread is the main food which we are continually clamoring for. 
During the football season I ate on the training table so I do not 
know what the students' fare was, but I heard some of them remark 
they must have been saving up for Thanksgiving. On Thanksgiving 
day we get a feast, and on Christmas day. They must have been 
getting poor food then, because they said they must have been saving 
up for Thanksgiving so they could afford to give us a great deal. 
Immediately after Thanksgiving I heard that again. About this 
time the training table was dropped, and I went on the regular 
tables With the students, and bread — every other day we would nave 
to cry for bread in the hall. It is a regular uproar the way the bo;^s 
yell sometimes, but no bread is given them. It is in the bakery, it is 
m the shelves, sometimes in the kitchen, but none is there for the 

The Chairman. Let me understand you. You mean the supply 
of bread for the tables was so short that they made an outcry in the 
dining room ? 

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Regularly ? 

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And that after the outcry was made they were 
unable to secure sufficient bread ? 

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Go ahead. 

Mr. Martin. There was no extra meat — not very much. On some 
tables nothing but a bone, and when 10 men get there there is noth- 
ing to eat, and they try to send in for more, and there is no meat. 

Senator Lane. Hold on. What do you have for breakfast ordi- 
narily? What is the ration for breakfast? Coffee? 

Mr. Martin. Coffee. 

35601— PT 11—14 3 


Senator Lane. What else? 

Mr. Martin. Oatmeal. 

Senator Lane. Good oatmeal ? 

Mr. Martin. Well, there is no sugar. It does not taste bitter, but 
there is no milk 

Senator Lane. You have sirup for breakfast? 

Mr. Martin. No, sir. 

Senator Lane. What else for breakfast? 

Mr. Martin. Gravy. 

Senator Lane. Meat gravy ? 

Mr. Martin. No, sir; just gravy 

Senator Lane. What meat do you have for breakfast? 

Mr. Martin. Tough meat. 

Senator Lane. I know; but how is it cooked? 

Mr. Martin. I don't know how it is cooked. 

Senator Lane. You know the difference between roast meat and 
fried meat ? 

Mr. Martin. Roast. 

Senator Lane. Roast beef for breakfast ? What else do you have ? 
Prunes ? 

Mr. Martin. No, sir; no prunes. 

Senator Lane. Bread and butter ? 

Mr. Martin. No, sir; no butter. 

Senator Lane. How often do you have butter? 

Mr. Martin. Once a week. We had it here when Mr. Liimen came, 

Senator Lane. Now, what do you have for lunch, ordinarily? 

Mr. Martin. Before Mr. Linnen came we had meat. 

Senator Lane. What do you call that, lunch or dinner? 

Several Boys. Dinner. 

Senator Lane. Now, what do you have for dinner — meat? 

Mr. Martin. Gravy, bread, water 

Senator Lane. I mean to eat. Butter? 

Mr. Martin. No, sir. 

Senator Lane. Potatoes? 

Mr. Martin. Once in a while, for breakfast, we have sirup. 

Senator Lane. I am talking about dinner — the noon meal. 

Mr. Martin. That is on Sunday dinner. 

Senator Lane. I mean on week days. 

Mr. Martin. Once in a while. There is nothing in the gravy. 

Senator Lane. Coffee or tea? 

Mr. Martin. No, sir; just water. 

Senator Lane. Any fruit of any kind? 

Mr. Martin. No, sir; no fruit. Before Mr. Linnen came, if we did 
not have beans we had rice. 

Senator Lane. Rico? 

Mr. Martin. Rice, or else peas. 

Senator Lane. At night what do you get? 

Mr. Martin. Tea, gravy, bread — sometimes that gravy is a kmd of 

Senator Lane. What else? 

Mr. Martin. Once a week we get ginger cake. 

Senator Lane. Sirup at all times on the table? 


Mr. Martin. We always used to get two pitchers of sirup until a 
couple of months ago, but now only one once a week. 

Senator Lane. That is, two pitchers apiece? 

Mr. Martin. One pitcher on the table. 

Senator Lane. How much does it hold ? 

Mr. Martin. One of those little pitchers. 

Senator Lane. How many students to a table? 

Mr. Martin. Ten. 

The Chairman. How long is that supposed to last? 

Mr. Martin. Through the meal. 

The Chairman. How many times a week? 

Mr. Martin. I think we get sirup once. 

The Chairman. Is it a fact that students have been compelled to 
leave their meals hungry ? 

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. And then they go to the store in town. 
There is a back store down here. 

The Chairman. The conditions, however, have improved since 
Inspector Linnen came ? 

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. There are always two dishes of prunes. 

The Chairman. You get all the gravy you want, I beheve? 

Mr. Martin. No, sir; not all we want. We did a year or so ago, 
but lately we hardly ever get the second dish. 

The Chairman. You were on the football team ? 

Mr. Martin. On the scrubs. 

The Chairman. They put you on a diet ? 

;Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You were supposed to get food especially prepared, 
I presume ? 

jMt. Martin. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Is there a sufficiency of knives and forks and tea- 
cups, and things of that sort ? 

\li. Martin. There has not been. Yesterday, I think, Miss 
Zeamer announced that there was enough. 

The Chairman. How do you get along when you do not have a 
sufficient number to go around ? 

Mr. Martin. Go from one table to another, if there are any absent. 
Sometimes we have to go without. 

We have no milk, no eggs, no buttermilk — which the farm pro- 
duces — and cream. 

Representative Stephens. Do you have sugar ? 

Mr. ^Martin. It never comes in the form of sugar. 

The Chairman. Do they grow potatoes on this farm ? 

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. This last year there were 2,330 bushels 

The Chairman. How often do they serve potatoes ? 

Mr. Martin. As a rule they come on Wednesday breakfast and 
on Sunday dinner. Once in a while there is a couple in the gravy. 

The Chairman. Twice a week, then, potatoes are served? 

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How often is meat served ? Is there meat served 
at every n;e;il? 

Mr. jMartin, No; breakfast and dinner. And there is a broth at 
supper — gravy, and sometimes broth. 


The Chairman. Was there anythmg else you wanted to speak 
about, Mr. Martin ? 

Mr. Martin. Pork. This year there were 100 hogs driven to mar- 
ket, and they are raising hogs down here, and we have no pork from 
that source — no meat of that kind. 

The Chairman. What vegetables are supplied at these meals ? 

Mr. Martin. Black beans; brown beans. 

The Chairman. Don't they serve you turnips, onions, and salads 
or greens ? 

Mr. Martin. No salads. 

Senator Lane. Cabbage ? 

Mr. Martin. Not now. 

Senator Lane. In the summer time, in the season when vegetables 
are growing good, you have plenty of vegetables ? 

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir — I have not been here when they had. 

The Chairman. Do you have milk or sugar for your oatmeal in 
the morning ? 

Mr. Martin. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do they serve oatmeal in the morning ? 

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir; every morning except one. 

Senator Lane. Have you no sugar for it ? 

Mr. Martin. It does not come in the form of sugar. Sometimes 
it is a little sweet, and other times it is not. 

Senator Lane. It is mixed in the kitchen ? 

Mr. Martin. I don't know; it must be. 

The Chairman. Do the boys sometimes use the same knife and 
fork, or drink out of the same cup ? 

Mr. Martin. No; they generally go without it if they do not have 

Representative Stephens. Do most of the students who come here 
come from the district schools on the reservation or from reservation 
schools ? 

Mr. Martin. Most of them, I think, are from the reservations. 

Representative Stephens. Did you come from the reservation ? 

Mr. Martin. I lived on it all my life, but when I came here I was 

Representative Stephens. You do not know, then, of your own 
personal knowledge, whether they came from district schools here to 
this school? 

Mr. Martin. No. 

Representative Carter. What degree of blood are you ? 

Mr, Martin. Quarter blood. 

Representative Stephens. What tribe ? 

Mr. Martin. Chippewa. 


The witness was reminded that he had been sworn. 
The Chairman. Where are you from, Mr. Braun? 
Mr. Braun. South Dakota. 

The Chairman. IIow long have you been in the Carlisle Institute ? 
Mr. Braun. I came here in September, 1911. 

The punishments here in some cases have been brutal. There are 
a number of small boys who have been hit by the disciplinarian with 


his fist, and there is a number of them here yet, and some of them 
have run away. I have the names. Ira Cloud was hit in the eye, 
and he has a scar by this eye where the ring on our disciplinarian's 
finger cut him across the eye. 

The Chairman. What disciphnarian was that ? 

Mr. Braun. The small bo3^s' disciplinarian, Mr. Denny. 

Senator Lane. When did this happen ? 

Mr. Braun. Here lately, about two weeks ago. He has the scar 

Representative Carter. Mr. Denny is an Indian himself isn't he? 

Mr. Braun. Yes, sir. 

There was three boys, Eddie Adams, George Morrow, and Paul 
Black (wSpotted Horse) were taken into Mr. Denny's office and 
whipped with a baseball bat, and one of them the arm was hurt so he 
had to go up to the hospital. 

Senator Lane. Struck him with a baseball bat? 

Mr. Braun. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. How old were the boys ? 

Mr. Braun. They were about 16, I guess. 

Representative Stephens. Which one was it that was hit with the 
baseball bat ? 

Mr. Braun. I think that was Eddie Adams. George Morrow, one 
of the boys, is here now. 

Then there is tAvo boys, Herbert Bradley and James Kalawat. 
James Kalawat was punished one time for dropping a rag on top of the 
floor. That was on Halloween night. Mr. Denny caught him up- 
stairs and hit liim and knocked him clear dow^n the first flight of stairs. 

The Chairman. What did he hit him with? 

Mr. Braun. He hit him with his fist. JMilton Brave was hit in the 
face with his fist. Marion French was hit with liis fist, and Edward 
Woods, a very smaU boy, w^as hit ^vith his fist. Milford Henderson, 
another very small boy, about, I believe, 10 or 12 or 14 years old, was 
hit in the face with his fist. John Cox and David Crow 

The Chairman. All those were struck with the fist ? 

Mr. Braun. Yes, sir; the boys that are here. And then some time, 
two years ago, there was a boy here by the name of Louis Bear was 
hit over the head by a shinny club. 

Mr. Denny was taking the boys in there to punish them — he don't 
give them any chance to explain. The boys are mocking him most 
of the time: "Wliat did you do?" ''Why did you do that?" And 
if they say anything, he says, "Shut up," and he hits them. 

Some time ago there w^as two boys stole a violin, who were from the 
same tribe — the Skindore boys, and they took the viohn down town 
and pawned it. Afterwards the boy that lost the viohn found out 
about it, and Mr. Denny went down tow^n and bought the viohn, or 
got it out of the pawnshop, and gave it back to him, and he put the 
boys to work about an hour and a half that afternoon and let them go. 
And the boy whose violin they stole w^as indignant, and he reported to 
one of the officers here and asked him for a court-martial, and after- 
wards when there was a court-martial here for some other boys the 
other boys refused to be court-martialed unless the Skindore boys 
were court-martialed, and they took them up to the court-martial. 
Otherwise they would have gone unpunished. 


That is all I have. One of the boys spoke about Sylvia Moon's 
case. I was one of the boys that went up to Mr. Friedman about that 
case. Wlien we asked him why she was expelled, first he got mad and 
gave us a lecture for coming up. Finally he said she was not ex- 
pelled, that she was sent home as a graduate. Afterwards we wrote 
to her, and she answered our letter, and she said that when she was 
sent home she was under guard from here to Harrisburg, and had to 
pay the fare of the matron to Harrisburg and pay for her meals and 
pay for her fare to return back to the school. 

|Af-The Chairman. What is the general condition of the disciphne in 
the school, Mr. Braun? 

Mr. Braun. It seems to me as though it is partial. Some of the 
boys are punished very severely for merely nothijig, while others are 
let go for doing something 

The Chairman. What is the order in the school ? 

Mr. Braun. It is poor. 

The Chairman. Is it getting better or worse ? 

Mr. Braun. Getting worse. 

The Chairman. How long has it been growing worse, within your 
knowledge ? 

Mr. Braun. When I fiist came here the order was fairly good, and 
there was very few cases where the boys showed any definite disre- 
spect for the people iji charge. But here lately it is a very common 
thing for a boy to h()ller at the disciplinarian or holler at Mr. Friedman. 

The Chairman. What do they say? Go right ahead and tell it. 

Mr. Braun. ''Who let him out?" One time we were having our 
picture taken, and Mr. Friedman was there. He had long hair, and 
the boys were hollering, ''Why don't you get a hair cut ?" and offering 
to cut his hair. And they show disrespect to Mr. Denny, who is our 
disciplinarian over there. He talks broKcn English. I was talldng to 
most of the boys — I know most of the boys — in their quarters, and I 
don't know one boy that respects Mr. Donny, ajid his influence over 
the boys is very poor. 

The Chairman. Why is that? 

Mr. Braun. The ojily reason they have for obeying him is fear of 
him, and the boys don't seem to have much fear. 

The Chairman. Do they feel any attachment toward Mr. Fried- 

Mr. Braun. None of them like Mr. Friedman. 

The Chairman. He is unpopular throughout the school, is he? 

Sejiator Lane. This man Denny, the disciplinariaj\, did he ever 
punish you ? 

Mr. Braun. He has reprimanded me, but has nevei' punished me. 

The Chairman. Do you know of anybody else whipping the pupils 

Mr. Braun. I think it was last spring, about a week before we went 
to Washington — that was some time in the latter part of February — 
there were four boys in the guardhouse, Charlie Williams, Charles 
Bellcourt, Robert Nash, and Thomas Nicholas. They were in the 
guardhouse, I believe, on just cause, for they refused to play in the 
band. They were band boys. Sunday night at 11 o'clock Mr. 
StaufTer, the nmsic teacher here, and Mr. Rudy, who was then assist- 
ant disci])linarian at the large boys' quarters, and Mr. Dickey, who 
was the outing agent here and was in charge of the large boys' quarters 


as disciplinarian over there, and Mr. Warner, the athletic coach, and 
Mr. Dietz, who is the art teacher here, went do^vn to the guardhouse 
and wliipped those boys. There is three of them who have gone 
home, but one is here yet, and I was speaking to him and he said he 
had scars on him yet. 

The Chairman. What is his name ? 

Mr. Braun. Robert Nash. 

The Chairman. Do you know upon what authority they went and 
whipped them? 

Mr, Braun. I do not know, but 1 do know that Mr. Friedman knew 
about it afterwards. 

Eepresentative Stephens. How do you know that? 

Mr. Braun. Because the boys reported it, and there was quite a 
stir around. 

The Chairman. Who did the whipping? 

Mr. Braun. Mr. Dickey. 

The Chairman. Do you know of the bandmaster here whipping a 
girl ])U])il ? 

Mr. Braun. Yes, sir; that is, I have heard about it. 

The Chairman. What was that case? 

Mr. Braun. Julia Hardin. She is here now. 

The Chairman. You do not know of your own personal knowledge ? 

Mr. Braun. No, sir; only what she has told me and what I have 
heard from the rest. 


The mtness was reminded that he had been sworn. 

The Chairman. What tribe do you belong to? 

Mr. Eastman. The Sioux. 

The Chairman. How long have you been in the Carlisle Institute ? 

Mr. Eastman. About three years. I came about the same time 
Mr. Brau did. 

The Chairman. What class are you now in ? 

Mr. Eastman. Attending Conway Hall. 

The Chairman. Go ahead and make your statement. 

Mr. Eastman. I have a statement on the same subject as Mr. Braun. 
The first one I know personally about is strapping four boys in 
the guard house. I am one of the band members. The way it 
happened, they were supposed to have a reception here, and some- 
thing came up and they postponed the reception. Instead of that 
they wanted to have a band concert, and the boys, thinking that 
Mr. Stauffer was the one that caused them to postpone the recep- 
tion, because he was the band leader, some of them made up their 
minds to refuse to play and asked the band members if they would 
play. Some thought they would, that it was all right, and some 
said they would not. These four boys were considered leaders. 
There were three of them; one of them apologized, and the others 
got punished. They were taken down there and strapped. One of 
the boy officers, William Garlow, is here, and he knew about this. 
He had been advertising in the catalogue to have court-martials 
here. These men went down there illegally. They did not have 
any court-martial at all. The student body did not know about it 
at all: it was the officers. I understood Mr. Garlow to state that 


Mr. Friedman did not know a thing about it until the next day. 
They were strapped, and one of the boys especially is a young man 
who was taken out of the band. He was the best baritone player 
we had, and he was taken out of the band and they won't let him play. 

The Chairman. Is he here now ? 

Mr. Eastman. No, sir; he is at the hospital. 

The Chairman. Where are the other boys ? 

Mr. Eastman. One is here with us, and the other has gone home. 

Senator Lane. When did this happen ? 

Mr. Eastman. This was last spring, just before the band went to 

The Chairman. Wliat is the general state of discipline and order 
in the school ? 

Mr. Eastman. It is corrupt. They have no respect for high au- 
thorities here at all, especially for Mr. Friedman. I remember 
instances — the time I think it really started was when they took Mr. 
Walker out of here. They had an athletic meet out there, and he 
came in front with somebody and stood up in front and they told him 
to sit down. They kept hollering ''down in front" and he sat down. 
And an instance that happened here lately was when he was going 
through quarters. He went through the quarters one night first and 
the boys never knew it. Of course he waked some boys up and talked 
to them in the middle of the night. The second tmie he came up it 
was one night in Ejcember. He came through again and the boys 
came out and threw shoes at him and called him names. 

The Chairman. Were you in on that ? 

Mr. Eastman. No, sir; I was not. 

The Chairman. You say the insubordmation practically began 
with the dismissal of Mr. Walker, the Y. M. C. A. man ? 

Mr. Eastman. Some of it did. 

The Chairman. The students were attached to Mr. Walker, were 
they ? 

Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir. He had the interest of the boys at heart. 
He had his picture taken with the student body here. And he had 
a little paper for the Y. M. C. A., and they had meetings here. Now 
you very seldom get any meetings here at all. 

The Chairman. The dismissal of Mr. Walker practically destroyed 
the Y. M. C. A. influence in the school ? 

Mr. Eastman. Practically destroyed it. 

The Chairman. Do you know why he was let go ? 

Mr. Eastman. No, sir; I have no personal knowledge. 

The Chairman. The boys were attached to him ? 

Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir. In fact, some of the boys wept when he 

The Chairman. How long has it been since he left ? 

Mr. Eastman. He left last spring some time. It is almost a year. 

The Chairman. Have you anything further ? 

Mr. Eastman. Well, about the boys throwing shoes at Mr. Fried- 
man. They told him to get out, and "Who let him loose?" and 
everything. They called him "Christ killer," and "Pork dodger," 
and "Jew." 

About the Y. M. C. A. After the Y. M. C. A. started the boys 
came back this fall and I was vice president and one of the boys was 
president, and we tried to do all we could to get them together. We 


got a secretary here, Mr. Mann. Personally I have spoken to him 
quite a bit, but he is no example to the boys at all. He does not 
speak good English to the boys and the boys have lost all interest. 

Representative Stephens. What is the trouble \vith the secretary ? 

Mr. Eastman. He was not the man for that position. 

Representative Stephens. Why? 

Mr. Eastman. Well, I don't thmk he was fit for that position, 
because I have seen him speakmg to boys and talking with them 
and the English he used was not good. 

Senator Lane. Is there much profanity being used on these 
premises ? 

Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. Is there more or less drinking? 

Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir; tliere is some drmkiiig. 

Senator Lane. Is it just occasional? There is ro regular drmking 
on the part of anyone ? 

Mr. Eastman. Well, m some instances there is boys that gets 
drunk almost any time they want it. I have seen instances — I don't 
really thuik there is any great step taken in trying to stop this, 
because anyone that w^ould try could stop it — and being in town I 
know very well they could stop it, because I m3-sclf coming back 
from school have seen boys in the hotels, and I know^ very well they 
got it. 

Senator Lane. You are pretty sm^e of that? 

Mr. Eastman. Yes, su*; I saw the boys, but not mysfdf. 

Senator Lane. This young man says he knows the boys got this 
whisky at the hotels. 

Representative Stephens. Wliat hotels ? 

Mr. Eastman. The Thudium House. 

Representative Stephens. Any other hotel ? 

Mr. Eastman. No; I do not recall any other hotel. 

Representative Stephens. What boys did you see go in? 

Mr. Eastman. There is one of the boys, I think, under punishment 

Representative Stephens. What is his name? 

Mr. Eastman. Peter Wilkie. 

Senator Lane. How is he being punished now ? 

Mr. Eastman. I do not know. He was in the guardhouse. 

The Chairman. Do they keep a watchman about the grounds 
here, or make any effort to find out when the boys come in drinking ? 

Mr. Eastman. Not that I know of. They have a night watchman 
here that is just a student watchman. 

The Chairman. You have no organization within the student 
body that is designed to protect the good name of the school from 
that kind of reputation ? 

Mr. Eastman. No, sir; the only step that was taken was that 
Y. M. C. A. 

The Chairman. You say the Y. M. C. A. did that? 

Mr. Eastman. The only thing that had any influence at all. 
Dr. Walker had an office over in the large boys' quarters — he did 
not stay there all the time — and in the evening he had reading and 
entertained the boys there himself. 

Senator Lane. Do you have a library here ? 

Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir; we have a library. 


Senator Lane. How many volumes ? 

Mr. Eastman. I do not know. 

Senator Lane. A large-sized library? 

Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. Are you allowed to go there in the evenings ? 

Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. Up to what hour? 

Mr. Eastman. From 7 to 8; and during the day, of course. 

Senator Lane. Now, do your hours of study here permit of your 
making use of that in the daytime ? 

Mr. Eastman. I do not, personally, now, because I do not stay up 

Senator Lane. What time do they go to bed here ? What is the 

Mr. Eastman. Nine o'clock. 

The Chairman. The Y. M. C. A. appears to have been a great 
influence for good here ? 

Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. At least all the students who have expressed 
themselves about it say so. 

Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And smce Mr, Walker left the Y. M. C. A. has 
gone to pieces; the organization has practically dissolved? 

Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And now you have no organization within the 
school that is calculated to be a moral force for the preservation of 
the good namo of the school? 

Mr. Eastman. No, sir. We have the Y. M. C. A. yet. It is called 
the Y. M. C. A., but it is not the same thing. 

The Chairman. It is not accomplishing anything? 

Mr. Eastman. No, sir; it is not accomplishing anything. 

Representative Stephens. \Yho is manager of the Y. M. C. A? 

Mr. Eastman. Mr. Meyer. They have had three since Mr. Walker 
left. But the boys, knoAving what Dr. Walker did for the students, 
found out when these other men came that they were not doing the 
same, so they could not take the same interest. They had JVir. Bryan 
from the college, and then Mr. Mann, and now they have Mr. Meyer. 
They used to have different speakers from town come around, and 
they had good meetings. 

The Chairman. Does Mr. Friedman take any interest in the 
Y. M. C. A.? 

Mr. Eastman. Not that I have known. He may personally, but 
he does not show it that I know of. I remember I was a member of 
the Y. M. C. A. last year until toward spring, and then I was vice 
president until I left. I left in April. 

The Chairman. How often did you have meetings? 

Mr. Eastman. Every Sunday evening. 

The Chairman. Did you have programs ? 

Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir; we carried on a program. Sometimes 
somebody would speak. Other times there was testimony from the 
boys, what they wished to say. During the day Dr. Walker used to 
entertain the boys at the office there, reading and whatever they 
wished to do. 


The Chairman. Did Mr, Friedman attend the meetings of the 
y. M. C. A. ? 

Mr. Eastman. Not very frequently. During last summer I do not 
remember seeing him in here but just three times. One was at a 
reception and they had a little program in here. Another time he 
was in; I don't remember just what occasion it was. And the last 
tune I have seen him here during last fall and last spring when they 
had a program here just for the benefit of the seniors. The seniors 
were supposed to give their ideas of things and speak, and after the 
seniors spoke he rose and spoke and gave his idea of it, and he prac- 
tically knocked us all on the head, almost the same as calHng us 
a har or something. 

Tlie Chaikman. He took the contrary view ? 

Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir. 

The Chaikman. What were the seniors trying to do ? 

Mr. Eastman. I was one of the speakers, and Harrison Smith, 
one of the boys that was expelled. We told him what the Y. M. C. A. 
did for us, and I myself explained how much the boys really thought 
of Dr. Walker, and I think that was the first Sunday Dr. Walker was 
here. Of course, the boys regretted it, and they asked me to an- 
nounce it in the meeting, and I did. And when Dr. Friedman 

The Chairman. What did he say? 

Mr. Eastman. He said he could not prove what it did for us unless 
we went home and showed it among our people, I can not just say 

The Chairman. Anyway, he antagonized the position taken by 
the pupils? 

Mr. Eastman. There was one instance of unjust punishment. A 
senior boy that was here was supposed to write a composition on 
citizenship. I suppose he was in the writing room, that seemed to 
be what he was doing, and he gave his answers, and he was put in 
the guardhouse. He is in there now. He is one of the boys that 
will talk to you. 

The Chairman. He was pvit in the guardhouse for what ? 

Mr. Eastman. For reading a letter, I think it was. I don't ex- 
actly know what it is, but he is in here and could tell you a])Out it. 

Senator Lane. Which one? 

Mr. Eastman. Alvis Martin, 

About the meals: We have beef. I have been in the room where 
they prepare this beef downstairs, where they cut it up, and it has a 
cement floor and everything. I was in there one time when they 
were cutting it, and it fell on the floor, and then they just picked it up. 
And sometimes we have fish and it is salty — you can hardly put it m 
your mouth. One time the fish smelled so you could hardly touch it, 
and some of the boys had to leave. 

Senator Lane. What kind of fish is it ? 

Mr. Eastman. I do not know. It is salty, I know. 

The Chairman. Is there anyone else who wants to be heard ? 


The witness was reminded that he had been sworn. 

Senator Lane. Where are you from? 

Mr. Bracklin. Wisconsin. 

The Chairman. How long have you been in school at Carlisle ? 


Mr. Bracklin. I have been here four years. 

The Chairman. Have you ever had any trouble with Superin- 
tendent Friedman? 

Mr. Bracklin. No, not to amount to anything. Last spring when 
I wanted to go home, my time had expired then, and I asked him if 
I could go home, and he said no. I had to wait untilJune, but finally 
he gave me consent, and that is the only trouble I have had with him. 

The Chairman. What is the estimation in which he is held by the 
student body in Carlisle ? 

Mr. Bracklin. According to what I have seen I do not think it is 
a very high estimation. 

The Chairman. What in your judgment is the reason he is not 
respected by the students, if he is not ? 

Mr. Bracklin. All of it has been referred to, but it is this unjust 
punishment that has been referred to that led the boys to sort of 
rebel, and not giving the boys a voice that they should have in the 
office over there. Any time a boy goes over there and wants to make 
a complaint he threatens them with punishment. Of course, the 
boys come back to charters here and kind of go to the other side of 
the question and take it in their own hands. 

The Chairman. He refuses to hear their grievances ? 

Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And consider their complaints, and they then 
become resentful? 

Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And, as you say, try to take the matter into their 
own hands ? 

Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Go ahead and make your statement. 

Mr. Bracklin. The statement I want to make is on the health 
conditions. Over here in the large boys' quarters they are not sup- 
plied well enough with towels. We get one towel a week to wash 
with, and some get a bath towel. The way the boys go around here, 
that is not sufficient for anybody. 

Senator Lane. What is it? A roller towel or ordiQary size ? 

Mr. Bracklin. One little towel it used to be, but now they have 
this sanitary towel in rolls. It is a kind of blotting paper. 

Senator Lane. Don't you got enough of that? 

Mr. Bracklin. I don't really know over there, but lots of times 
th'>y do not get enough of it. I room over in tho athletic quarters, 
and I have h'^ard th'? boys complain that they do not get enough 
towels. This paper runs out, and they have to go up in their rooms 
and wipe th^nr faces with the sheets or pillow cases or anything they 
can get hold of. 

This gymnasium down h'U-e — this place here should be kept just 
as clean as anywh'n-e else, because th" students come h'n-e and drill, 
and h'nv th^y spend th-nr social evenings all together. Of course, 
I hold Mr. Friedman responsible for that condition, that h<^ should 
keep it cl"an. You can go right down tli'^re and look around the 
pip^s and it is nothing but tobacco spit and dirt all around th" pipes 
and wall. 

Senator Lane. Th" students do that themselves, don't they? 

Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. Do they chew tobacco ? 


Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. And smoke cigarettes ? 

Mr. Bracklin. Yes. 

Senator Lane. Can not the boys have a rule to regulate the con- 
duct of the students ? 

Mr. Bracklin. The way we look at it that would be stepping over 
Mr. Friedman's head, taking the authority into our own hands. 

Senator Lane. You think that is for him to do ? 

Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. Did you ever complain to him about the condition 
of it and call his attention to it ? 

Mr. Bracklin. Not that I know of. 

Senator Lane. Does he ever inspect the place? 

Mr. Bracklin. I do not think so. If he did he would have it 

About fire drills, there is not enough of that, which, of course, 
treats under health conditions. Now, the only time they have fire 
drills over here — they never have them over here in the boys' quarters. 
They have them over in the girls' quarters. The only time they have a 
fire drill is when a moving picture man comes over nere and takes the 

The Chairman. Is that literally true ? 

Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What is the object in having fire drills in the 
girls' quarters and not in the boys' quarters. Is there any reason 
assigned for it ? 

Mr. Bracklin. In my opinion it is just to cause a little excitement 
on the campus through the moving pictures. 

The Chairman. To make a show? 

Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact, have you a fire organization 
among the boys in the school ? Who is the fire chief ? 

Mr. Bracklin. The fire chief is Mr. Weberton, the plumber. 

The Chairman. Have you a fii-e company among the boys? 

Mr. Bracklin. Not that I know of. I do not know of any. 
They might have. 

The Chairman. Did you ever see them drill here on the premises ? 

Mr. Bracklin. No, sir. 

The Chairman. What fire escapes are there on the girls' buildings ? 

Mr. Bracklin. Well, on those porches there is two, I think. 
They are made out of this pipe, and they only lead do\\TT. to the 
second floor and there the girls have to shde on this pipe do\ATi to the 
second floor, and from there I suppose they go inside and run doAvn 
the stairs. 

The Chairman. There is no way to get out on the fire escapes from 
the second floor at aU, then ? 

Mr. Bracklin. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Are the fire escapes on the girls' buildings ade- 
quate otherwise than that? Is there enough of them? 

Mr. Bracklin. I do not think so. 

The Chairman. There are only two on the building, you say ? 

Mr. Bracklin. Two on each floor coming down. 

The Chairman. What fire escapes are there on the boys' buildings? 

Mr. Bracklin. The same thing. 


The Chairman. Do you know how long they have been in use ? 

Mr. Bracklin. No, su-; they were here when I came. 

The Chairman. The fire-escapes on the boys, building extend to 
the groujid, or near enough, do,n't they? You do not know about 

Mr. Bracklin. No. 

The Chairman. Go ahead. 

Mr. Bracklin. The fire escapes over in the athletic quarters on 
the east side — I think there is five or six of those steps taken out. 
If there should happen to come a fire, how is a boy going to escape 
down those fire escapes ? 

Senator Lane. How do they come to be out? 

Mr. Bracklin. I think Mr. Friedman gave an order to take them 
out because the boys oftentimes went down these stairs to go out on 
the athletic field. 

Senator Lane. Are they wooden steps? 

Mr. Bracklin. No; they are iron. 

The Chairman. Don't the boys use them to slip out sometimes 
and steal away from school ? 

Mr. Bracklin. No, sir. 

I don't know whether to speak of the girls' quarters or not. The 
girls' windows are nailed down. The bottom sash is nailed solid to 
the top, and the only way they can get any fresh air is to have a 
little opening on top and they can not open the bottom sash up. 

The Chairman. Do you know why that is done ? 

Mr. Bracklin. No, sir. 

The Chairman. I presume that is done to keep them from passing 
in and out of the rooms tlirough the windows. 

Mr. Bracklin. I do not think they could pass down there and 
jump to the ground. 

The Chairman. You do not think it would be necessary to fasten 
the windows for that purpose ? 

Mr. Bracklin. No, sir. 

The Chairman. On the second floor, you mean ? 

Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. The girls do not room on the first floor, 
only on the west side. 

The Chairman. What about the bedding in the boys' quarters? 

Mr. Bracklin. The bedding is all right, I think. Of course, it is 
a little hard, and there is no springs to it. 

The Chairman. But you think you can make out on that very well ? 

Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You have no complaint on that account ? 

Mr. Bracklin. No, sir. 

The boys' punishment in the guardhouse — the boys go down there 
being punished for some mischief of any kind, and they put them 
down there, and if he has done any serious crime they feed him on 
two sandwiches a day — meat sandwiches. 

The Chairman. Do you mean to say that part of the punishment 
imposed on a refractory student is starving him ? 

Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Is that universally done ? 

Mr. Bracklin. It has been done here for the last two months. If 
these boys work they get one regular meal a day at the noon hour. 

The Chairman. The boys in the guardhouse ? 


Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. If they work? 

Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. What kind of work would that be ? 

Mr. Bracklin. The boys that work in the guardhouse have to go 
down to the boiler house and shovel coal. 

Senator Lane. Firing? 

Mr. Bracklin. They have a place where they can haul the coal 
from and get it handy to the boilers. 

The Chairman. They do not work them on two sandwiches a 
day ? Is there anything else — — 

Senator Lane. What are the sand^\^ches composed of? 

Mr. Bracklin. Meat. And their bedding — they do not get any 
mattress, just these iron strips. No bedding, only their mattress. 
Possibly, sometimes they steal a pillow and take it down there, but 
no mattress. 

The Chairman. Part of the punishment, then, is a bad bed ? 

Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. How many boys have been put in the 
guardhouse within the last three months ? 

Mr. Bracklin. I could not say for certain. There has been some 
there all through. 

Representative Carter. How many have been in the guardhouse 
during the last month ? 

Senator Lane. Does anybody know? 

A Pupil. Probably eight or nine. 

Representative Carter. How many were in there last week ? • 

A Pupil. Four, I think. 

Representative Carter. How may are in there now ? 

A Pupil. I am sure I can not say. Three, I think. 

Representative Carter. What are they in there for ? 

Mr. Bracklin. There was seven in there tliis noon. 

Representative Carter. What are they in for ? 

;Mr. Bracklin. Some for being drunk; most of them for being 

Representative Carter. Anything else ? 

Mr. Bracklin. No, sir; I don't know anything. 

Representative Carter. What is the procedure for placing the boy 
in the guardhouse ? Do they give him a trial or anything ? 

Air. Bracklin. Wliy, there used to be, but it has not been done 
lately. They used to court-martial him, but it has not been done for 
a long time — since last spring, I think. 

The Chairman. Who has the power to send him to the guard- 

]Mr. Bracklin. Sometimes these boys, when they were court- 
martialed, they were fined possibly $2; possibly $10. 

Senator Lane. Cash fine ? 

Mr. Bracklin. If the boy has cash, he pays. Sometimes he has 
money i p 1 ere hi ll-.c office, and they take it out. 

Senator Lane. Wliat is done with that money? 

Mr. Bracklin. They cham that they buy magazines and papers for 
the large bty.,' quart er?. 

Representative Carter. You have not told us who sentences these 
boys to the guardhouse. 


Mr. Bracklin. Who takes them down? 

Representative Carter. No; who has the right to say that they 
shall or shall not go there ? 

IVfr. Bracklin. Why, I think the disciplinarian has that part of it. 

Representative Carter. Who is he? 

Mr. Bracklin. Mr. McKean. 

Representative Carter. Does Mr. Friedman have anything to do 
with that ? 

Mr. Bracklin. I should judge that Mr. McKean has orders from 
Mr. Friedman. 

Representative Carter. But you don't know that? That is your 

Mr. Bracklin. No, sir. 

Representative Carter. Do they always put a boy in the guard- 
house when he gets drunk ? 

Mr. Bracklin. WTiy, that is if they know he is drunk. Lots of 
them they do not find out. 

Representative Carter. Do you know anything about how these 
boys get this whisky ? 

^Ir. Bracklin. Not positively; only what I have heard. 

Representative Carter. What do you hear about it ? 

Mr. Bracklin. Sometimes they go down here in town and get these 
bootleggers, of course. They are blacks mostly. They get them to 
go and get the whisky for them, and the negroes bring it to them. 

Representative Carter. The negro goes to the saloon and buys it ? 

Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir; possibly sometimes the whites. 

Representative Carter. What does the boy pay for it ? 

Mr. Bracklin. I could not say, sir. 

Representative Carter. But the negro gets a profit. He does not 
do that through friendship ? 

Mr. Bracklin. Possibly not. 

Representative Carter. You never bought any yourself ? 

Mr. Bracklin. No, sir. 

Representative Stephens. Do you know the names of any of 
these fellows that do that ? 

Mr. Bracklin. No; I do not know them. 

Representative Carter. Can you give us the name of anybody 
that could tell of us of any ? 

Mr. Bracklin. I thmk Mr. Charles Kelsey could tell you. 

Representative Carter. Is he a student ? 

Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. 

Representative Stephens. Is there anybody else ? 

Mr. Bracklin. I could not say for sure who would teU, but there 
is lots of them that gets it, I guess. It would be pretty hard to get 
them to tell who they get it from. 

Representative Stephens. Can any of you young men, or ladies 
either, give us the names of any of these bootleggers in this town, 
black or white, male or female? Don't all speak at once. 

Mr. Eastman. I could not say any name, but I have seen boys at 
this house I told you about — the hotel. 

Representative Stephens. Can you give us the names of boys 
that would know ? 

Mr. Eastman. I do not know whether I could give the name or not. 

Representative Stephens. You gave his name a while ago ? 


Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir. 

Representative Stephens. Can any of the rest of you boys give 
us the name of anybody that would know ? 

A Pupil. I know of boys who tell me they get it. 
Representative Stephens. Now, what is the name of that boy ? 
A Pupil. There is one boy, for instance, that was court-martialed 

i'ust a few days ago. That is Peter Wilkie. He says he got it at the 
Pennsylvania House. I forget the name of another boy who was up 
there at the same time, but he is in the guardhouse at present. 

Representative Stephens. He is in the guardhouse now ? 

A Pupil. Yes. I think he stated he got it at the Pennsylvania 

Representative Carter. Wliat is his name ? 

A Pupil. He is a new boy; I forget his name. 

Representative Carter. What is this other fellow's name ? 

A Pupil. Wilkie. 

Representative Stephens. Can the rest of you boys, or girls either, 
give any names of anybody you think would know ? 

(No response.) 

Mr. Bracklin. I would like to mention discipline and order a lit- 
tle. It is my own opinion, for one thing, that it is lax. In 1908 the 
boys and girls used to meet together. At that time they took pride 
in going there in a respectable way and being a gentleman or a lady 
while in the dining room. But now, after they have been separated, 
the boys do not seem to care how they go over there. They go over 
any time — -go into the dining room — -do not have to have any forma- 
tion over there. They just go over any time they get ready. They 
go most of the time just like they are going to work. They go in 
their working clothes — never washed. This way they do not learn 
how to act at a table, do not learn any manners; whereas, in my 
judgment, if they had to eat with the girls they would learn a little 
manners and learn how to act at a table. 

Representative Stephens. Do they have anyone there at the table 
to keep order? 

Mr. Bracklin. They have -a matron. 

Representative Stephens. Does IVIr. Friedman ever go to the din- 
ing room himself ? 

Mr. Bracklin. He has not been there this fall, only Christmas and 

Representative Stephens. Do they have disorder on those days? 

Mr. Bracklin. No. 

The Chairman. You know Inspector Linnen, do you? 

Mr. Bracklin. Not personally. I have seen him around. 

The Chairman. Did he talk with you about what your testimony 
was going to be ? 

^Ir. Bracklin. No, sir. 


The witness was reminded that he had been sworn. 
Senator Lane. Where are you from? 
Mr. Broker. From the White Earth Reservation, Mnn. 
The Chairman. Proceed with your statement. 

35601— PT 11—14 4 


Mr. Broker. I will just have to dwell on the laxity of discipline. 
In my judgment the laxity of discipline is due to loss of respect by 
the students for the head, caused by the ignoring of their complaints, 
mostly because students have went up there with certain complaints 
and they could not get redress in any way. His unjust punishment 
of students — for instance, take that of expulsion. Students have 
been expelled for little or no cause whatever, and if the other students 
have asked for reasons why a certain student has been expelled he has 
been either threatened with punishment or ignored. 

Representative Carter. Can you give cases where the students 
have been expelled without cause ? 

Mr. Broker. Well, there is the case of James Baker — it has been 
given already. And that is one case. There is a boy that is thought 
well of by all students. There is no cause whatever why he should 
have been expelled. It was just simply that he wrote to the author- 
ities concerning the opening on an official letter that was written to 
him from his agent. It was opened up here at the office and he com- 
plained of it to this agent, and the agent sent it back to Mr. Friedman. 

Representative Carter. Who was his agent? 

Mr. Broker. Maj. John R. Howard, at the White Earth Reser- 
vation . 

Representative Carter. What was his name ? 

Mr. Broker. James Baker. I remember him telhng me the night 
he went away. He told me this himself, that Mr. Friedman had the 
letter in front of him and he asked Baker what he meant by that let- 
ter, and Baker he said just what it stated. And in that letter all it 
contained was the conditions and it asked his agent — that letter asked 
his agent whether Mr. Friedman had authority to open students' 
official letters. And Baker told him he had meant through that letter 
just what it said. Then Mr. Friedman upbraided him for his social- 
ism that he believed. Of course, he said it was a bad influence upon 
the students, but Baker in no way whatever tried to influence such 
upon any other students. 

Representative Carter. Was that aU that Baker did? 

Mr. Broker. Yes; that is aU. 

Representative Carter. That is the only thing he did for which 
he was expelled ? 

Mr. Broker. Yes. There has been students that have been ex- 
pelled for writing to higher authorities concerning the opening of 
official letters. Now, there is another case here that was taken up, 
I think it was about 1910. I remember well it was about the fu-st 
summer I was here. There was a lad up here in the old guardhouse 
by the name of George Manawa. The boy that was in charge of the 
guardhouse at that time was Henry Blatchford. Manawa had re- 
ceived a letter from his agent in Oklahoma somewhere. I don't know 
who the agent is. It was opened up at the office here, and Mr. Blatch- 
ford — Manawa asked Blatchford to write for him to the authorities 
in Washington concerning this. Mr. Blatchford did so, and the letter 
was sent back to the office, and it was found out and Blatchford was 
given 15 minutes to leave. 

Representative Carter. He was from Oklahoma ? 

Mr. Broker. Yes. 

Representative Carter. What tribe ? 

Mr. Broker. I don't know. 


Representative Carter. Do you know what place in Oklahoma? 

Mr. Broker. Blatchford, the boy that was expelled for doing this, 
was a Chippewa from Wisconsin. 

The Chairman. How do the pupils generally regard the superin- 
tendent of the school ? 

Mr. Broker. My estimation is the}' do not regard him very highly. 
They did when he fu"st came here, and that was four j^ears ago last 
December, but from then on I have noticed that the discipline in 
general has been lowering gradually, and it was through aU this, just 
what I have stated. 

The Chairman. Have you talked with anyone what your state- 
ment would be here ? Have you talked with Mr. Linnen ? 

Mr. Broker. No, sir; I never — I did not speak to Mr. Linnen. 


The witness was reminded that he had been sworn. 

Senator Lane. Where are you from? 

Mr. Simons. Massachusetts. 

Senator Lane. What do you represent? 

Mr. Simons. I was supposed to take part in the cUsciphne, with 
^Ir. Broker. 

Senator Lane. AVhat have you to say in reference to that? 

Mr. Simons. I think myself like this: I was supposed to take part 
in the disciphne part of this question. At that time I was a student, 
but since then I have been made a kind of employee, and it kind of 
makes feehng — makes the employees — anyway, as Mr. Broker was on 
disciphne, he got into the matter, and I thought I would keep out 
of it myself, but as the boys hked for me to come up here 

Senator Lane. Are you an employee? 

Ml'. Simons. I am supposed to be an employee ? 

Senator Lane. What are you doing? 

Mr. Simons. I take care of athletic goods and the quarters. 

Senator Lane. You are not attending school any more? 

Mr. Simons. Yes, sir; I am attending school, but I am supposed 
to be an emploAee. My time of schooling is not out. I have three 
more years to go to school here. 

The Chairman. Hov: m.uch compensation do you receive, and who 
pays you ? 

Mr. Simons. I thought at first that the money that was paid for 
the one that took care of the athletic goods and quartei-s would 
come out of the athletic money, but 1 looked into the matter and 
found out the money comes really from the Government, and they 
pay S25 a month for taking care of that place. 

The Chairman. They pay a student then out of the Governm.ent 
funds S25 a month for taking care of the athletic goods? 

Mr. Simons. Athletic goods and the ({uarters the boys are in. 

The Chairman. Have they been pa} ing students heretofore for that 
work ? 

Mr. Simons. Why, you see, my time is really up at school and i 
can go outside if 1 wish. But first i would like to stay and finish 
my schooling, and I .have not signed again for another term. 1 was 


here and had not signed, and so they wished nie to take that place, 
and that is the way i happeaed to get it. 

Tne Chairman. Tell us anything that you think we ought to be 
informed of. 

Mr. Simons. In regard to discinliiie? 

Senator Lane. Anything you please. 

The Chairman. Athletics. 

Mr. Simons. As I have stated before, I thought myself it was best 
to keep out of it. 

Senator Lane. Best for whom ? 

Mr. Simons. Best for myself to keep out of it. 

The Chairman. What facts do you know ? 

Mr. Simons. I could not say, really. I was put on discipline. 

The Chairman. Is the discipline in the school satisfactory to you ? 

Mr. Simons. No, sir; the discipline is not satisfactory. 

The Chairman. How long have you been studying in school ? 

Mr. Simons. Since October 15, 1908. 

The Chairman. Is it as good now as when you came ? 

Mr. Simons. At that time the discipline was more military, you 

The Chairman. Is it as good now as it was ? 

Mr. Simons. It is not near as good. 

Senator Lane. How old are you ? 

Mr. Simons. Twenty-four years old. 

The Chairman. In what respects is it worse now than when you 
fii'st came here ? 

Mr. Simons. Well, at the time when I fii'st came here it was 
military. What I mean to say is — they had officers, you know, and 
the disciplinarian himself was a military man. He was an Indian — 
Mr. Venn. He understood the ways to arrange the officers and 
wherein to take care of the discipline, whereas to-day the discipline 
has fallen off on account of not handling the students right, I should 
think. Say, for instance, the officers held up the discipline at that 
time, and being dissatisfaction among the student body and not 
getting justice by the head, it has formed discontent among the whole 
student body, and by doing this they have lost control of the officers 
of the school. 

The Chairman. What evidence of disorder have you observed in 
the school recently ? 

Mr. Simons. I do not understand you. 

The Chairman. What lack of discipline do you see ? 

Mr. Simons. Well, I see boys occasionally drink once in a while. 

The Chairman. Is there more drunkenness now than there was 
when you first came here, Mr. Simons ? 

Mr. Simons. Oh, yes, a good bit more; I should think a good bit 
more than when I first came here. When I first came here the 
discipline was good. It seems like everybody had something to do, 
you know, to take up their time. 

The Chairman. Lfnder the old system the students were relied 
upon, through the military organizations in the school, to help 
enforce order and preserve order? And has that been adandoned? 

Mr. Simons. It has not been abandoned. 

The Chairman. Has it been relaxed ? 

Mr. Simons. Relaxed, I should think. 


The Chairman. Now, have you seen the students display evi- 
dences of disrespect towards the superintendent ? 

Mr. Simons. Well, I have been among the student body, but I 
could not say who it came from. 

The Chairman. From the student body, if j^ou want to term it 
that. Have you seen them show disrespect toward the super- 
intendent ? 

Mr. Simons. Yes; I have. 

The Chairman. On many occasions ? 

Mr. Simons. Quite frequently. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether it is a fact or not that the 
student body as a whole do shov\^ disrespect to the superintendent? 
» Mr. Simons. Yes; the student body as a whole — aU the boys, 
could not say about the girls, of course. 

The Chairman. Are there any young men of good standing in the 
school who are the friends of the superintendent and who respect him 
and try to help him along. 

Mr. Simons. I myself was speaking about as far as respect was 
concerned — I don't think they show much respect toward him. 

Representative Stephens. Do you think it is possible for this 
present superitendent to restore order in the school and build it up ? 

Mr. Simons. I thmk he could not have any influence at all on the 
student body if he were to stay here. I think if he were to stay here 
it w^ould be worse. 

Representative Stephens. And you think it would get w^orse than 
it now is if he remained ? 

Mr. Simons. I do. I really think it would. 

The Chairman. Have you talked with Mr. Warner recently? 

Mr. Simons. Yes; I have. 

The Chairman. Have you talked with him about testifying here ? 

Mr. Simons. Yes; that was the reason I did not want to testify 
here, because the fellow that was taking care of this place over here, 
he left, and — of course, he did not ask me, but he asked through 
him if I was taking part in this work, and he told him, he said, "Mr. 
Simons is a quiet fellow; he never says nothing and never does any- 
thing, and I don't beheve he is taking part in this." But he did not 
tell him to ask me if I were, so I did not say anything. Of course, if 
he had asked me I should have told him yes. 

The Chairman. Did Mr. Warner talk to you about your testimony 
here ? 

Mr. Simons. No; he did not ask me. The only thing I know is 
that Clement Hill that used to be over there — IVIr. Friedman called 
him up to the office and asked who was going to take the place, and 
he said he had recommended me. Mr. Friedman asked Clement 
then — he did not think I would make a very good one, on account I 
was taking part in this trouble toward the head of the school, you 
know. So Clement says he did not think I were. He said, "I mil 
take your word for it." He told Clement, but he did not ask me. 

Senator Lane. How long have you been occupymg this position? 

Mr. Simons. Well, I have just been in there since Monday, but I 
knew I was going to get it for two weeks. I thought the best tiling 
for me to do afterwards was to keep quiet, not because I w^as afraid 
or anything, but just because I thougnt it would be — I don't know 
what you call it. 


The Chairman You thought it would be good policy? 

Mr. Simons. Yes. 

Representative Carter. Mr. Warner did not tell you not to testify ? 

Mr. Simons. He did not ask me to. 

'Representative Carter. He did not ask you to or not to? 

Mr. Simons. He never said anything to me regardhig this at all 
only through Clement. 

The Chairman. Did you see him to-day about testifying here 
to-night ? 

MJr. Simons. No; I did not, because one of the boys out here, one 
of the officers, brought around a slip of paper and said he would like 
for me to be here at 6 o'clock. 

Senator Lane. These gentlemen here , 

Mr. Simons. No; he is outside. 

Senator Lane. Thes? gentlemen here selected you to accompany 

Mr. Simons. I do not know who selected me. I know we had a 
meeting one night and my name was on a slip. Of course, I was 
willing to take part m it myself at that time, but I thought it best 
afterwards not to on account of this. 

Representative Carter. You did not want to take chances of 
your job? 

Mi\ Simons. No; not that 

Representative Carter. That was a pretty good thing to do. 

Senator Lane. You felt that inasmuch as you were working for 
the institution it would not be epiite proper? 

Ml'. Simons. That is the idea. 

Senator Lane. I think probably you are right about that, too. 

Mr. Simons. Because it did not make very good feeling, being 
among the employees. 

Senator Lane. No; nor does it look well for you to be in here 
while the students are giving their evidence. Had you though of 
that ? 

Mr. Simons. Yes, sir; I thought of it. 

The Chairman. How did the studenits happen to come here, rep- 
resented by committees on the part of the young men in the school 
and young laelies in the school ? 

Mr. Simons. I believe first there was talk among the boys that 
we should liave a meeting, so one night we came from the dining 
room, and we all niarcheel right u]) here in troops and we all came in 
here. Then we selected a president to take charge of the meeting. 
So the president was chosen, and I suppose he and his associates at 
that time selected the ones they thought could represent the school. 

The Chairman. The action, then, was s])ontaneous on tlie part 
of the students themselves, and arose from their dissatisfaction with 
conditions that existed in tind about the school? 

Mr. Simons. Arose from their dissatisfaction — I could not say 
what you call it ; the dissatisfaction of the school — the way the things 
are carried on. 

The Chairman. Now, liave }ou seen or interviewed tl^e ins])ector 
for the Government, Mr. Linnen? 

Mr. Simons. No, sir. 

The Chairman. 1 want to ask, in tjiis connection, of the young 
ladies and young gentlen en v.^ho are h.ere re])resenting the meeting 


that has been spoken of, vdiether they have convei'sed with Mr. 
Lmnen or told him what then* testimony or statements would be. If 
any of you have, we would be glad to know it. Mr. Yuda and Mr. 
Chase ? The otlier say they have not, I believe. 

Mr. Chase. We asked him when this going to be. 

The Chairman. I asked which of you had made statements to Mr. 
Linnen as to what your testimony was going to be. 

A Young Lady. Miss and I told Mr, Linnen — we asked him 

how we should carry on our part and what was expected of us, and he 
told us to give only the facts, and they were to be true, and every- 
thing we brought up was to be true. We got permission from him to 
carry on our meetings Avithout the matron. The first meeting we 
had was with a number of girls, about 50, and that 50 selected a com- 
mittee to represent them, and we are the six here, and we have 
investigated as far as we could. 

Representative Carter. You did not talk to Mr. Linnen about 
what you would testify to when you came here ? 

A Young Lady. No, sir; he just told us to look into the matter; 
that was aU. 

Representative Carter. You did not tell him what you were going 
to say. 

A Young Lady. No, sir. 

Representative Carter. And he did not teU you what to say? 

The Chairman. What I am trying to find out is whether Mr. 
Linnen has been unduly active in obtaining testimony. 

Mr. Yuda. In reference to me, I raised my hand, I spoke of con- 
ditions that existed, but I did not tell him what I was going to say. 

The Chairman, He did not make any suggestion to you '( 

Mr. Yuda, Nothing whatever. 

The Chairman. You did not detail to him your testimony ? 

Mr. Yuda, Not all of it. I just gave him an outline as to my per- 
sonal trouble. 

Mr. Chase. I had spoken to Mr. Linnen, telling him that there 
was a committee, and each one had a subject, and my subject was 
expulsions. And he told me to get the facts and tell the truth about 

The Chairman, You came to Mr, Linnen first? 

Mr. Chase, No, sir. 

Tiie Chairman, I thought you said you had spoken to him and 
told him there was a committee? 

Mr. Chase. I did. 

The Chairman, So he told you to get the facts and present them ? 

Mr. Chase. I told him what my duty was on the committee, and 
he said to get the real facts and the truth. 

Senator Lane. Did Mr. Warner suggest to you or tell you it would 
be better for you not to be seen here to-night ? 

Mr. Simons. No. I know it is the feeling amongst the employees 
not to do that. 

Senator Lane, Mr, Warner did not tell you to do that? 

Mr, Simons. No. 

Senator Lane, He did not suggest it? 

Mr, Sevions. He did not suggest it to me, you know. 

Senator Lane. Who did? 


Mr. Simons. ISh. Hill, you kninv, tlio follow that was boforo me; 
ho told mo about this. Ho said it was host not to tako part in this 
if wo woro wishing to bo thoro. 

Sonator Lane. That was friondly atlvioo on his ]>art ? 

Mr. Simons. Yes. sir. 

Ro]u-osontativo Caktf.k. All tho omplovoos do not sharo that 
fooling, do thov, that you ^luniUl not tostify boforo this oonnnit too ? 

Mr." Simons. I oould not swoar to it mysolf, Init T lioliovo somo- 
timos thoy intluonoo boys not to tako part in it. 

Koprosontativo Carter. But your to^timony only goos to certain 
omplovoos ^ You do not think the entire force of employees, every 
one of them, have that feehng? 

Mr. Simons. No, sir: I don't think every one of them, but a few. 

The Chairman. Did anyone tell you that it would be best not to 
testify here I 

Mr'. Simons. Yes, sir: Hill, tho hoy tlnit just loft. 

The Chairman. Did ho say who told him io say that. AMiom did 
he speak for ( 

Mv. Simons. 'Yni <oo. ho rocommomlod mo, but ho did not know 
1 WAS taking }nirt in thi-^, and ho said to mo, "I know well you are not 
taking part" in this, " 1 suppose he had not attended these meetings, 
and I did not toll him 1 wn^. That is the only reason; if he had 
asked me 1 shindd toll iiim. 


The witness was duly sworn by tho chairman. 

The Chairman. \A1iero is your home ^ 

Ml". YuDA. 1 hve near Syracuse. X. Y. 

The Chairman. \Yliat business arc you in ? 

Ml-. YvDA. I have a restaurant ami dohcatosson store. 

The Chairman. "VMiere is it ? 

Mr. YuDA. On the other side of tho railroad tracks. 

The Chairman. Near here I 

Mr. YuDA. Within hah' a mdo. 

The Chairman. Were you formerly a student here? 

Ml". YiT)A. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How long wore you a student I 

Mr. YuDA. I was here a little over live years. I just left in May, 
after graduating last year. 

The Chairman. How did you come to leave ? 

Ml-. YuDA. Well, it is beciiuse I took the initiative steps in behalf 
of better conditions on the part of the students in general. The whole 
trouble has been that the superintendent had suspected me of being 
on the inside 

Represontative Carter. On the inside of what i 

Ml-. YuDA. Of conditions. 

Senator Lane. Of the good conditions ^ 

Mr. Yn)A. Of the bad conditions. And he thought that such 
influences as mine was a detriment to the institution. I went along, 
drifting, not saving much, but keeping my eyes open. Charges were 
gotten up against me and they were circulated, and through some 
friends of mine they ]nit mo next to what was going on. 


Representative Carter. WTio were the friends that put you next? 

:Mr. Yuda. I would Hke to withhold that. 

Representative Carter. AU right. 

Mr. Yuda. I was told about this, that it had been conversed in the 
office what was going on. Immediately on finding that out I ap- 
peared before the disci[)linarian, stating I did not think it was right 
for them to go behind my back and try to bring up anything against 
me, that I was here, and that they should bring it before my face. 

On finding those things were said about me I went up to the super- 
intendent and told him the state of my condition. He said, "Well, 
I believe those things are so." I said "Mr. Friedman, will you allow 
them to prove it ? Give me a trial." " No; I do not think it is neces- 
sary." "Well, will vou allow me to prove them?" "Well, no." 
"Well," I said, "Will you let them stand?" "Yes; I am going to 
support my disciplinarians in w^hatever they do, whether they are 
right or \vrong." I said, "Take my name off that roll. I won't have 
it any longer in an administration w^here you abridge the right of a 
fellow having justice." 

The Chairman. What w^ere you charged with? 

Mr. Ylt)a. He charged me with never sleeping on the grounds; 
that I was in hotels every night. I defied him 

The Chairman. What were the facts about that ? 

Mr. Yuda. There w^as no facts about it. That is what they could 
not prove. 

The Chairman. I do not care about what they could not prove. 
As a matter of fact, did you sleep away from the school frequently? 

Mr. Yuda. Never slept away from the school, only on occasions I 
left the city with the people I w^as working with, making ice cream; 
never have I slept aw' ay from this institution. I had the night watch- 
man, I had the inspectors, I had my roommates, I had all the boys at 
my table in the mess 

The Chairman. You were prepared to prove that the charge was 
untrue ? 

Mr. Yuda. Untrue; and he would not prove them, so I was ^villing 
to prove them. I told him to take my name off, and he said, "I will 
consider that." In the meantime, Gus Welch and several boys had 
gotten together. I said, "Boys, I am going to go to Washington." 
I said, "I am not going to see Mr. Abbott; it is useless for the students 
to write to Mr. Abbott. How many complaints have been sent in 
that he will not recognize, and I am going to go above his head. I 
will see the Secretary of the Interior." 

Well, this petition was gotten out, but nobody dared to sign his 
name to that. The moment you took the initiative step, out you 
went as an undesirable student from the institution. I knew^ it was 
only a matter of a few days before I would get my pink slip, and while 
I was here I was going to do what I could to better conditions, if I was 
to be a martyr. I appealed to Congressman Rupley in Washington, 
and received a card from him which I presented before the First 
Assistant of Secretary Lane — Mr. Myer, I think. 

He made arrangements for me to see the Secretary, and at that 
time this land proposition, concerning Japan and California, was 
before the Cabinet, and it was an early meeting that morning of the 
Cabinet. The same morning I had a meeting with Secretary Lane 
at 10 o'clock, and he went to the meeting to hear what Mr. Bryan had 


to say. I found I could not stay any longer, because my finances 
were going very low, and it would mean for me to stay over to-morrow, 
which I could not have done, so I brought the petition then before 
IMr. Myer, and stated also about the strapping of the students here 
and the licking of the boys there who were placed in the guardhouse, 
by the employees. 

Representative Carter. How often is that done ? 

Mr. YuDA. That is very seldom done here. I have never known 
that done before. 

The Chairman. What incident do you refer to ? 

Representative Carter. When you say "strapping of the boys" 
what do you mean ? 

Mr. YuDA. You see, I had that in the petition. I brought it be- 
fore Mr. Myer, and Mr. Myer looked that over. It also stated about 
opening the students' mail here. If mail would come here in the 
name of a boy, at the wiU of Mr. Friedman he would tear it open. 

Representative Carter. How many times did he do that ? 

Mr. YuDA. A number of times. 

Representative Carter. Give us the instances of it. 

Mr. YuDA. If I could recall — I never carry any notes or anything 
to place those things down. I can recall of an instance that he opened 
Grover Allen's letters on two occasions, taldng out a check. I think 
they had notified the boy about it. I think the Indian agent from 
Oklahoma notified him. They have never sent him any of that 

Representative Carter. Give us the other one. 

Mr. YuDA. Edward Fox, and I have kjxown of George Manawa. 

Representative Carter. Were there any others? 

Mr. Yuda. I would like to give them to you, but I can not recol- 
lect. I have never thought of that before, but there is fully 20 or 25, 
possibly 30, that the students here can give you, of opening their 
mail. Now, it appeared here that some of these boys wrote to Wash- 
ington, and the Postmaster General got after Mr. Friedman for this. 

Now, I also stated about the bank books to Mr. Myer, to refer to 
Mr. Lane. Now, the idea of a student here — go to any student 
around here, and say, "How much money have you got in the 
bank?" He says, "I don't know." They don't kiiow. Ask them 
what interest — they know what interest they shoidd get on the dol- 
lar, but the question is as to how much they get. They do not know. 
They have no way of keeping it. They have no bank book to keep 
track of their money. 

Representative Carter. Did you have money when you were here ? 

Mr. YuDA. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. Did you have it in the bank? 

Mr. YuDA. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. Did the bank pay interest on it ? 

Mr. Yuda. That I don't know. I don't think I ever got a cent of 

Representative Carter. Did you take the pains to find out from 
Mr. Friedman ? 

Mr. Yuda. Oh, no. Mr. Friedman don't have anything to do 
with that. 

Representative Carter. Who does? 

Mr. Yuda. Mr. Miller, the banker. 


Representative Carter. Did you try to find out from Mr. Miller? 

Mr. YuDA. No, sir. 

Representative Carter. Is Mr. Miller here? 

Mr. YuDA. He does not stay on the grounds. 

Representative Carter. He is a banker downtown? 

Mr. YuDA. No; he is the banker here. 

Representative Carter. Did you never try to find out from him 
how much money you had ? 

Mr. YuDA. No, sir. Oh, I would go up occasionally to find out 
how much I had. 

Representative Carter. Will, would he refuse to tell you? 

Mr. YuDA. No; I don't think he ever refused. 

Representative Carter. He would always tell you how much 
money you had ? 

Mr. YuDA. Yes; h'^ would show me. 

Representative Carter. Then what is wrong about it ? 

Mr. YuDA. Here is the point. If a sfudent has money down there 
in that bank he should certainly keep track of his own matters and 
not 1< ave it to him. 

Representative Carter. The student should keep track? 

Mr. YuDA. Yes. 

Representative Carter. Is the banker to blame because the stu- 
dent does not do that ? 

Mr. YuDA. Who is to blame ? 

Representative Carter. The student, I should think. 

Mr. YuDA.' Why not issue him a bank book ? 

Representative Carter. Did you ask for a bank book ? 

Mr. YuDA. What good would it do ? 

Representative Carter. How do you know what good it would 
do ? Did you ask for a bank book ? 

Mr. YuDA. No, sir; I never asked for any. 

Representative Carter. Now, then, you are blaming somebody 
for not giving you a bank book when you did not ask for it. 

Mr. YuDA. I think we had bank books once. We had bank books 
at one time here. They were withdrawn from the students, taken 
away from them. 

Representative Carter. You have not any complaint to make 
about their being withdrawn unless you made some effort to get 

The Chairman. When were they withdrawn ? 

Mr. YuDA. They were withdrawal, I think, after two years of ^li. 
Friedman's administration. 

The Chairman. How were they withdrawn ? 

Mr. YuDA. Taken in. 

Representative Stephens. They ceased issuing them ? 

^ir. YuDA. Ceased issuing them. That money for two or three 
years was kept by the banker. No doubt it was kept all right. 
But you ask any student how much interest money have they got, 
ask any of these. Nobody knows. 

Representative Carter. Did you take any occasion to try to find 
out why the bank books were withdrawn ? 

Mr. YuDA. No; I never took that step. I was supposed to be on the 
inside of things, and if I took that step I would not be here to-day. 


Representative Carter. Do you really think that if you went up 
and asked why they would have expelled you ? 

Mr. YuDA. It is hard to say. They have expelled fellows for less 
things than that. 

Representative Carter. For what? 

Mr. YuDA. Well, when they wrote. 

Representative Carter. Of course, we do not approve of that, but 
there would be no man so foolish, I think, as to expel anybody, to 
take the chance of expelling a boy and losing his position for the 
simple reason that he asked why he did not give him a bank book. 

Mr. YuDA. I give you an instance. Just two or three weeks ago a 
boy was expelled here. What was he expelled for? ''You are 
loafing. " The true fact of it was the boy was absent half an hour. 

The Chairman. Who was that? 

Mi\ YuDA. Louis Schweigman. The true fact is he was absent 
half an hour from his work. 

Representative Carter. You can not deny that loafing ought to 
be in violation of the rules. Now, you are coming to another point, 
the fact whether he loafed or not. The mere asking for a book, Mr. 
Yuda, would not cause a boy to be expelled, I do not think. 

Mr. Yuda. No, I don't know whether it would or not; but I never 
took the chance. 

The Chairman. After you left here what happened ? You went 
away from here. Did you have any further transactions with 
Supt. Friedman? 

Mr. Yuda. Yes, sir; I did. I left Carlisle, and I went home and 
stayed home a couple of days, and I came back. In the meantime I 
had a job working. Right after I graduated I stayed here at school 
with the intentions of Mr. Friedman — he had made several promises 
he would send me to Conway Hall; that he wanted me to become a 
lawyer, and he would do all these things for me. When the time 
came he did not do it. 

So I went and got a position here, a place I had worked four years 
during my vacations. I had learned to make ice cream and took 
charge of a plant. In the meantime, while I was expelled, I was 
working there. I went home and came back to my job right away. 
I went to work. Mr. Friedman was wise that I was there. He drove 
down there in his team and demanded that I should leave. He told 
my boss that I should be dismissed at once; that if he would hold me 
there he would discontinue the use of his ice cream on his grounds. 

The Chairman. How do you know? 

Mr. Yuda. I heard him. I hoard the boss say it. Now, the boss 
told Mr. Friedman — I was within five or six yards from him listening. 
He said, "What is the matter with Yuda? "We always found him to 
be a fine boy. I never could bring anything against him. He has 
worked here for me for four years." '' Well, I tell you his influence in 
this town is a detriment to the institution." ''In what way?" 
"Why, he has a tendency to have the boys rebel when they are enjoy- 
ing fine privileges over there." "Well," he says, "You are the only 
one I ever hear speak of it. The other students don't sav anything 
Hke that." 

Well, my boss told me this about the ad'air, and told nw that I 
would have to go, but it was hard, and to stick around awhile in the 
town and as soon as things quieted down I could come back and 


always find a job with him. Then I made a proposition with my 
boss that if I would use his ice-cream wagon I would get customers. 
I would run a horse and buy the ice cream from him, and go and make 
a hving for myself on my own hook. 

This was accepted by my boss, and everything went along for three 
or four weeks, and there was no doubt that he had somebody about 
looking me up. He appeared there just when I was hitching my team 
to go out, and he drove there with his black team, and he got out, and 
he said, ''Now, look here. I thought I told you about letting this 
young man go." " Well, he is not working for me now; he is working 
for himself." "Well, I don't want you to sell him any ice cream. 
That is just the same as you having him working here." 

Now, mind you, sir, in this town I was a graduate of this institu- 
tion. I had defied them to bring anything against me. I had tried 
to play the part of a man, and have kept my head aboveboard, 
because right under the shadow of this institution as my guidance I 
want to be a credit to the institution and to the Indian, and there 
was nobody that could have turned me aside. But right in the town 
was boys that had been former students of this school three years ago 
that were in the lowest places of the town, drinking and carousing, 
and he knew that because the policemen came to him on occasions 
and appealed to him. Now, he came to me and kept me from my 
bread and butter, and he allowed such a fellow, which was a disgrace 
to the institution, to have the right under the shadow of the insti- 

The Chairman. Wliat is the name of your employer? 

Mr. YuDA. B. W. Hostler. 

Representative Stephens. Wliat is the name of the Indian that 
was drunk? 

Mr. YuDA. John McGinnis. 

He discouraged me. He got me to a state that I did not know 
what to do. Wliether he did it or not, this action of the discipli- 
narian — I think it comes directly from him because he would not take 
any such authority as to go around and get a policeman to watch me 
and have them try to lead me to things and get up a lot of stuff 
that is rotten and no truth to it whatever. And when I found out 
that they had such a thing as an affidavit I knew my conscience was 
clear, and I said, "You have got an affidavit for me; arrest me." He 
said, "What affidavit have I got?" I said, "I know you have; 
arrest me." He said, "Well, I have just a little stuff that the people 
have said." He knew it was so, but they refused to push it because 
they knew it was all false. If they had ever brought that up I do 
not think you gentlemen would have been here to-night, because I 
would have told the court. 

Now, while those things were against me I was brought to tliis 
judge, and the detective says, "Why, I have investigated the con- 
ditions of this young man, and found out they are not so as they have 
been stated to you." The detective told this to the judge. The 
judge saw me — Mr. Sadler. He said, "Young man, do you tliink it is 
very good for you to stand liere and fight against the wishes of Mr. 
Friedman? Don't you think it is best for you to leave the com- 
munity and go elsewhere and get a start?" I says, "Your honor, I 
tliink that while I am under the guidance of this institution, under 
the very door of it, if I should feel it would be there to guide me, that 


the influence of the faculty here would always keep my head up and 
aboveboard." I says, ''If I could not make a start here, why I 
could not make a start a thousand miles away from here." I said, 
"I was working for a man here four years, and I am still on the job, 
and he is a man that any amount of money has been left in my 
hands " 

The Chairman. What did they charge you with? 

Mr. YuDA. They never pushed the charges. 

The Chairman. How did they get you before the court ? 

Mr. YuDA. I appealed to the detective to arrest me and that he had 
a warrant. He denied having one. He said, "I wiU just take you 
up here and we will talk to the judge." He was in his office at the 

The Chairman. What court is he judge of? 

Mr. YuDA. Cumberland County; the county court. 

The Chairman. Ho advised you to loave? 

Mr. YuDA. Yes. 

Representative Stephens. What is the judge's name? 

Mr. YuDA. Judge Sadler. 

The Chairman. You did not leave ? 

Mr. YuDA. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Was there any further effort to throw you out of 
employment ? 

Mr. Yltda. Yes, sir. He then told my boss that nobody in town 
would hire me. And it is true enough, for I never went around for it, 
but I left the town 

The Chairman. Where did you go ? 

Mr. Yuda. I went to Chambersburg, and took charge of a much 
larger ice-cream plant. 

The Chairman. How long did you stay there ? 

Mr. Yltda. I stayed there August and September. 

The Chairman. You were not disturbed there ? 

Mr. Yltda. No, sir; and they did not know my whereabouts. 
Now, I was telling you what the judge told me 

The Chairman, t think we have had enough of that. 

Mr. Yltda. I want to tell you where they went to work and would 
not interfere with me. He said to me "Young man," I told him, 
"Your honor, you will stand b}' 3^our convictions when you know 
you are right." He says, "Yes." I said, "So will I. You don't 
know the conditions between Mr. Friedman and me." And I ex- 
plained to him. He says, "Young man, you stay here in this town. 
I am through with you. You sta}^ right here and make a man of 
yourself." And there has not been any trouble since that time. 

Representative Carter. Had you been coming to the school or 
having any communication with the boys at the time Mr. Friedman 
went down to your boss and told him he must fire you ? 

Mr. Yuda. No, sir; that was only three days after I had arrived 

Representative Carter. Had the boys been coming to you ? 

Mr. Yuda. None whatever. 

Representative Carter. You had not been trying to incite any 
trouble with the boys ? 

Mr. Yuda. I kept myself clear of anybody from the school, because 
I did not want anybody know I was in the town. 


Representative Carter. And you have not ever since you left the 
town taken part in any movement against the faculty ? 

Mr. Yuda. I have always stood for the right. 

Representative Carter. But that does not answer the question. 
Have you ever since then taken any part in any movement against 
the faculty ? 

Mr. Yuda. Not directly. 

Representative Carter. What do you mean ? 

Mr. Yuda. I mean I did not oppose them directly. Wlien things 
were brought to me, when the boys would ask me something, I would 
say, "The best thing to do is to go to your superintendent." They 
gay to me, ''He won't reason with us." It is true; it is the same in 
my case. 

Representative Carter. Have you in any way been a disturbing 
element in the school since you left it ? 

Mr. Yuda. No, sir. 

Representative Carter. You do not have any malice in your 
breast for Mr. Friedman ? 

Mr. Yuda. No, sir; not since I left the school. 

(All the female witnesses present were duly sworn by the chairman.) 


The Chairman. You are one of the committee representing the 
young lady students in Carlisle Institute who wish to present some 
matters to the commission ? 

Miss . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Very well. You may proceed and make your 

Miss . I took up about expelling some of the girls. It has 

been this last year where there has been more girls expelled for less 
reason, and they have kept girls here that ought to have been sent 
away. Last spring there was a girl — she never did anything out of 
the way or anything, but she was full of mischief. 

The Chairman. What is her name ? 

Miss — . . She was sent home. 

Senator Lane. Where ? 

Miss . To her home in South Dakota. 

Senator Lane. Where are you from ? 

Miss . Minnesota. The head matron told her that she was 

going home, and perhaps in two or three months, when she improved 
her conduct she could come back. She did not tell her that she was 
expelled. But the girl told her she v/ould come back as long as she 
was here, so she might as well tell her she was expelled. 

The Chairman. What were the charges against her? 

Miss . She does not know herself. 

The Chairman. Do you know ? 

Miss . I was speaking to her cousin about it, and she said 

that was just being mischievous. 

The Chairman. Go ahead. 

Miss . Miss case — that was another incident. Mr. 

Friedman had no reason to expel her. Of course, I was more of a 
personal friend with , and she rather told me more of her 


troubles. She was telling me about this time when she was speaking 
to Miss Ridenour about her not having enough sleep, and Miss Riden- 

our was trying to get her to apologize for this, and did not 

think she had reason. From time to time Miss Ridenour would call 

her into the office and ask for an apology, and would not 

acknowledge it at all, and she simply ignored Miss Ridenour at that 
time. She would not speak unless she really had to. 

It was at one of the recitations that she sent for . 

was all ready to go. simply pulled off her party gown and 

put on her everyday dress and she went down. She said, "You are 

not to go." said, "What have I done?" This happened 

about a month afterwards. Miss Ridenour stated the case, the 

statements she made to her in the assembly room. only 

smiled, and she said, "Is that all?" And she never said any more 
until after that Miss Ridenour called her in and said she had taken 
this matter up to Mr. Friedman, and she said, "I told Mr. Friedman 

to reduce you to ranks." Miss Ridenour did not reduce Miss 

to ranks at all. stepped into the ranks on her own accord 

after ]\Iiss Ridenour passed the remark that some of the girls were 

not fit to be officers, and took it Miss Ridenour meant her. 

As I stated before, she took this matter up to Mr. Friedman, and Miss 
Ridenour said that Mr. Friedman said she did the right thing by 

reducing Miss to ranks, and he also stated that was enough 

to dismiss any girl from the school. 

Of course Miss — — • — - did not heed this statement, because she 
thought Miss Ridenour was just threatening her. About two or three 
weeks ago, when we were all in school line, Miss Ridenour was stand- 
ing at the door and she called into the ofiice, and — ■ • 

thought she was after her again for the apology. One of the boys 

stated Miss Ridenour said, "Well, , I have waited long enough 

for this apology, and Mr. Friedman and I have decided to send you 
home." — — — said, "All right. What time do I leave?" Miss 
Ridenour said on the 10.45, but they had to leave the grounds at 10 

o'clock. — ■ said all right, and she was under guard from the 

time she went into the office until she left Harrisburg. They did not 
give her any spending money from the office from the funds she did 
have up there, but they just simply shipped her home without any 
warning. • — went home — and that was not any reason what- 
ever. She never had other punishments. The way we girls look at 
it, she is put on the same level with girls that have been expelled for 
immoral conduct. 

At that time Miss Ridenour sort of knew about the meetings the 
girls were having. Well, just before that four or five of the girls got 
into trouble and they are still here, and she has not done anj^thing but 
put them in the lockup. 

The Chairman. What trouble? 

Miss ■ — . They met boys down in the bathroom there — -and she 

expelled • for such a simple reason as that. 

The Chairman. Your point is that Miss — had com- 
mitted no serious offense and she was expelled, and that other } oung 
ladies have at least been charged with the very serious offense of 
infraction of the moral proprieties, and they have not been so severely 
punished ? 


Miss ■. Yes, sir. It was more for impudence that 

was expelled, but she was registered after she was sent home as a 

The Chairman. Do 3'ou know, as a matter of fact, that she was 
expslled, and registered as a graduate? 

Miss . Yes, sir. There were other girls that were expelled 

on the same occasion, for impudence, last spring. 

The Chairman. Who were they ? 

Miss . They were , — , 

, , and . 

The Chairman. Th? girls whose names you have just given us 
were all expelled for impudence ? 

Miss . Yes, sir; Miss was expelU'd for impudence, 

jind I have not giv^n the girls' nam:'S on the list here that are still 
hold that ought to be ^xpelled for the trouble the;y hav^ mad?, for 
the way pe>ple Icx^k down on the rest of we girls that are trying to 
do right. 

The Chairman. Do you want to give them ? 

Miss — — — . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. All right. Who are they? 

Miss . They are , , 

and — ■ — — — — — . These girls met the boys down in the 

bathroom, and they were only put in the lockup for a week. 

The Chairman. V^Tiat bathroom do you refer to ? 

Miss — — — . Our bathroom in the girls' c{uarters. Tlien there has 
Deen some giiis expelled for bad conduct, that is, for the same reason, 
but it did not give right out what they were expelled for. To just 
go back, they certainly deserved to be expelled, but they just put 
down "time out." 

Here is one case : — . She got into trouble out in he 

country, and she was sent home from out in the countr}'^; also this 

. She came in the fall of 1911, and she was in the 

condition that she ought not to be with younger girls here, and she 
went to the country, and she came back and stayed until Christmas 
in the hospital, I think it was. She was taken to the hospital, and 
from there, I guess, after she had childbirth, she was sent home. 

Representative Carter. What was her name ? 

Miss ■ . . She was a Sioux girl. 

Senator Lane. When was this ? 

Miss . 1911. 

The Chairman. Have there been many cases of that sort? 

Miss . There has been, similar to that; but we think it is 

Mr. Friedman's place to find out the conditions of the girls when they 
come here. And such cases have existed before; that is, the girls 
have been in that condition before coming here, and they are not 
here long enough before they are sent back home. Of course that 
reflects on the school. 

The Chairman. There is no doubt about that. 

Senator Lane. What did she say about this young lady that became 
a mother ? 

Miss . Just sent home on leave. 

Representative Carter. How long wi^s she here. Miss ? 

35601— PT 11—14 .5 


Miss . I really don't kiiDAV just when she came, and I was at 

the hospital at the time she returned from the country. That was in 
the fall. 

Representative Carter. Can you estiinate how long it was? 

Miss . I was there all winter during the year of 1911, and she 

came along about October. 

Representative Carter. And when did she leave? 

Miss . She was sent to this hospital — the Maternity Hospital 

in Philadelphia — along about Christmas time. 

Representative Carter. In 1911 ? 

Miss . Yes, sir; or February, and she was not there two 

weeks when she had her child; and I guess after she was able she was 
sent home. Mr. Friedman was going to allow this girl to stay here at 
this hospital and have her child, and of course all this time the stu- 
dents were laughing about it and taking it as a joke. Some of the 
girls got up a petition and took it to Mr. Friedman, but he did not 
pay any attention to their pleas about this thing; but finally they got 
up a petition and got the girls to sign it, asking for this girl to be sent 
to some hospital in Philadelphia. Of course, after he saw this peti- 
tion, he had the girl taken to the hospital; but I think that if the girls 
had not got this petition he would have left her here; and, of course, 
that would have been some disgrace to this institution. 

The Chairman. There is no doubt. That is a very embarrassing 
and regrettable incident. Wherein do the young ladies blame Mr. 
Friedman for that? What do they think he should have done that 
he did not do or that he did do that he should not have done ? 

Miss — . I should think he would have sent this girl home as 

soon as he found out she was this way. Instead of that he kept her 
here at the hospital and had her promenading from the hospital to his 

The Chairman. And then, when she was sent home, the entry in 
the record was a false one ? 

Miss — — — . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. As to the reason? 

Miss . Yes, sir. 

Another incident is • — . She worked for the Warners, 

while her sweetheart was a photographer down here. Of course, he 
was an Indian boy, and he was studying the photograph trade, I 

worked at Warners myself, and — was working up there, and 

she was left alone, I suppose. Mrs. Warner had gone to Harrisburg, 
or somewhere else, and Mr. Warner was attending to his duties 
around on the grounds, and tliis young man went over there and 
paid her a visit, and Mr. Weber saw him go in there, and he knew 
that the Warners were not home, and he reported it to the head- 
quarters up at the office, and Mr. Friedman said it was all right, 
tnere was no harm. Shortly after that that girl was sent home in 

Senator Lane. Where was she from? 

Miss . She was from Wisconsin. 

Representative Carter. She was a student at that time ? 

Miss . She was a student. 

Representative Carter. What was she? A Chippewa? 

Miss . Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. Are you a Chippewa ? 


Miss . Yes, sir. 

That is about all about expolling. Of course, these other girls 
had reasons for being expelled. They were put down ''expelled," 
and some, ''failed to return." 

The Chairman. Do )'ou know why that is done? Do you know 
what the reason is for making that false record? 

j\liss . The only way I can see is that Mr. Friedman has 

expelled so many students with such little reason he is ashamed to 
put down on the record "expelled." 

The CiiAiRMAX. But in at least some of these cases the expulsion 
w^as imperative. What is the motive, if you know it, or can explain 
it, for not stating the actual reason f(»r the expulsion? 

^liss — ■ . As the girls were expelled, I guess he saw he had 

expelled some girls without reason, aiid wlioi he came to the real 
reason he was so ashamed to put down what the reason was 

The Chairman. He thought that to disclose the real facts in con- 
nection ^\ith that would reflect upon the students of the school? 

Miss — ■ . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Now, I take it you are a representative student 
here, from your appearance and manner, and the fact that you act 
as one of tJfiis committee. How long have you been in this school? 

Miss . I am going on my fifth year. I came August 27, 1909. 

The Chairman. Have you had ajiy trouble in the matter of dis- 
cipHne since you have been in the school ? 

Miss . No, sir; I have always tried to carry myself as a lady. 

The Chairman. And you have never been disciplined seriously ? 

Miss . No, sir. 

The Chairman. What is the estimation in which the superin- 
tendent is held by the young lady pupils in the school ? 

Miss . Well, as a rule, I don't think 3"ou wiU find one out of 

every ten of the girls that have any respect for Mr. Friedman — or for 
his wife, as far as that is concerned. 

The Chairman. Both of them lack the confidence and the respect 
of the pupils ? 

Miss . Yes, sir. In the first place, his wife is not the 

woman that ought to be on the grounds for we girls to follow the 
example, because the way she goes around here on the campus 
sometimes is simply disgraceful. We girls have seen her time and 
again when the boys were pla3dng on their instruments over here, 
when they happened to be coming from the club she would go out 
here and sldrt-dance and Idck until you could see up to her knees. 
Mr. Denny was standing there one time when she was performing 
these acts. 

Senator IjANE. Was her husband around ? 

Miss . Once, that I remember of. He was coming up here 

wlien he had just come out of the dining haU, and lie was coming up, 
and he called out to her, ''Oh, honey, I will pay for it,'' and sue 
said, ''I have paid for it already." And it just happened some of 
the boys were playing on their trombones, and she started on lier 
skirt-dance, and she went on — well, she carried it a httle too far, 
and after Mr. Friedman got up on the porch they started to play 
peek-a-boo around those pillars there, and they acted what I would 
call silly for a man that was ruUng over the students that are here. 


They went in, and they have presented such conduct at our evening 
gatherings here on different occasions. 

Senator Lane. You know of occasions, you say, when they set 
that kind of example before the students ? 

Miss . Yes, sir. At tliese dances when the orchestra is 

playing Mrs. Friedman goes around with her skirt up to her knees. 
Anybody could tell you tliat she has presented herself in that respect. 

Representative Stephens. Was he there ? 

Miss . Yes, sir; he was there, and he would go around. 

And the way Mr. Friedman yells at the girls — he does not speak to 
us like a gentleman should speak to young girls that he was trying 
to make ladies of. He would yell, "Hello, there," instead of saying 
"Good morning," or tipping his hat. He would talk to us as if we 
did not have any manners. 

The Chairman. And those instances have caused the young ladies 
in the school to lose all respect for him ? 

Miss . Yes, sir. Another incident : One day I was coming 

over from one of the teacher's rooms, and there was several girls 
playing on the band stand, and he happened to be coming up on this 
farther walk, and he was coming down the middle walk, and these 
girls were playing. Of course, that is the only recreation time we 
have, after school. And it happened they were playing up there 
puss-in-a-corner, and they were screaming and enjoying themselves. 
And he said, "Oh, there, you savages," or, "Oh, you savages" — he 
called them savages anyhow, and I thought it was very rude of him. 

Another time as I was coming up the steps, he said, "Hello, there," 
and I spoke to him. I said, "Good evening." He went on; I don't 
know where he was going. That is not the only time he called the 
girls savages. 

The Chairman. What age are you ? 

Miss •^. I am 19. I will be 20 next month. 

The Chairman. You eat \\ith the pupils in the dining room, do 

Miss . No, sir; at the big dining room. 

The Chairman. Where the young lady students eat '. 

Miss . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Wliat about the food that is being served over 
there ? 

Miss . The food we have been having lately is somewhat 

better than it has been. 

The Chairman. Since when ? 

Miss . Since Mr. Linnen has been there. 

The Chairman. Since the inspector came? 

Miss . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Can you tell us in what particular it has been 
improved ? 

Miss . For a while here we students were not allowed a 

second helping of bread at all. Of course, we girls do not need it 
as much as the boys, because the boys work harder, and they do 
not allow the boys as much bread— well, in fact, the whole student 
body did not have enough bread at all. And there would be lots of 
bread in the kitchen, as one of the boj^s stated. 

Representative Stephens. What do they (hi with it ? 


Miss . I don't know. And when we asked the dining-room 

matron she said that was ]\Ir. Friedman's orders. He would call them 
up and give them instructions. When we asked Mi'. Zeamcr about 
the bread he said, ''That is Mr. Friedman's orders." 

The Chairman. What is one helping? 

Miss . Two plates on each table. 

The Chairman. And how many ladies? 

Miss . Ten at each table. 

The Chairman. How many pieces of bread are there on it? What 
I am trying to get at is whether they were making a reasonable 

Senator Lane. More than one slice apiece? 

Miss . Sometimes just one slice. 

Representatiye Stephens. How large a piece would that be? 

Miss . About that large, I suppose [indicating]. 

Representatiye Stephens. About 3 inches square? 

Miss . Yes, sir. 

Representative Stephens. How thick? 

Miss . Just the way the girls cut it— sometimes an inch 


Representative Stephens. Never over an inch thick? 

Miss . No, sir. Lately we have been having two or three 


Senator Lane. That is something unusual ? 

Miss . Yes, sir; that is unusual. 

Representative Stephens. Since when did you get vegetables? 

Miss . We have canned tomatoes, canned peas, corn — since 

!Mr. Linnen has been here. 

As to knives and forks and spoons, we have iiot had them until 
yesterday morning, I think it was. 

Representative Carter. You had to use your fingers ? 

Miss . We use our bread to sop up our gravy. When a 

girl would get through with her spoon, if we happened to have a 
dessert we would wash it out in our cups and use that. 

Now, about Mr. Stauffer. Last spring he bought a mandolin from 
one of the gu'ls, and this mandolin was a S25 mandolin; that is, 
with a leather case, and the instrument. And the girl, while she is a 
good player on the instrument, she wanted the use of the mandolin 
herself, and she wanted to buy this mandolin, and she made arrange- 
ments with the girl, and the girl was gomg to sell it to her for $5, 
and she was willing. The mandolin had a little repairing to be 
done. She had it all that summer, and then she took it to Mr. 
Staufi'er, and Mr. Stauffer had it, and sent away and had it repau-ed, 
and this girl told ^Ir. Stauffer she was going to buy this mandolin, 
and he asked her for how much, and she told him $.5. 

Miss Bradley was the one that wanted to buy this nnmdoliii. 
In the meantime Miss Bradley spoke to the owner of this mandolin 
and told her she need not pay any attention to the repairs, that she 
would pay for them, and this girl was going to sell it for S3 without 
the repairing. So this girl, Miss Bradley, wrote to her father and 
explained the matter of the mandolin to him and told him how much 
she was going to pay for the mandolin, and her father wrote and told 
her not to take advantage of the girl, and so she wrote again and 


told him about $15 was what she was going to pay. In the meantime 
her father wrote, and he was going to send lier the mono}*. 

In the meantime Mr. Stauffer got hold of this Miss Simpson and 
told her he wanted to buy the mandolin. ''Of course/' he says, "it 
will be sometime before Miss Bradley will pay you," or something 
like that. He made some kind of excuse. So this girl gave liim the 
mandohn, and he paid her right there cash S5. And this fall when 
he organized a new mandolin club for the year he sold this same man- 
dohn, that he paid $5 for, to one of the girls that had been out in the 
country — and I guess she had very little means herself — for $15; and 
thereby he made $10, when the girl was going to pay the full price 
herself. And Mr. Stauffer told Miss Bradley about it. Of course, 
Miss Bradley could not do anything about it then. She had to drop 
it then. 

Representative Carter. Mss , you made a very serious 

charge there against Mrs. Friedman, and I want to ask you, Is she 
always in those moods, doing those things ? 

Miss — • — — -. Every time I see her she is carrying on somewhat 
simple. She does not carry herself as a woman ought to for us to 
follow an example by, but she always has those simple ways about 

Representative Carter. Is she always in that hilarious mood of 
wanting to kick? 

Miss . Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. Nearly all the time? 

Miss . Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. Is that just animal spirits ? 

Miss — — — ■. I guess so. 

Senator Lane. Full of life, is she? 

Miss — . Yes, sir. They always talk about we girls and the 

way we comb our hair, and using powder and paint, and some of the 
girls see Mrs. Friedman with this paint and powder, and blacking her 
eyebrows, and I think if she does it they ought not to blame us. Of 
course, you could not blame any of the girls that see anyone with 
high authority over there doing such a thing. 

The Chairman. That Mr. Stauffer that you referred to — do you 
know of his beating a young lady pupil here ? 

Miss •. I heard of it. 

The Chairman. What was her name ? 

Miss —^—. . 

The Chairman. Is she here now ? 

Miss — ■ — ■^. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. Who is he ? 

The Chairman. He is the bandmaster. 

Representative Stephens. Is he still in the school? 

Miss . Yes, sir. 

As to the lockups. When ]Miss Ridcnour puts the girls in there 
she gives them very little exercise and very little fresh air, and very 
little water or food to eat and (h'ink. 

The Chairman. What does she give them ? 

Miss . Just what they get in the dining room, but not as 

much as they would get if they went to the table. This lockup is in 
the back part — what we call the sky-parhn- hall. It is a very dark 
room, and there is no ventilation there at all. It is anything but 


sanitary. There is only one window, and that leads into the uniform 
room, and one or two windows are left in that uniform room, but our 
uniforms collect all the fresh air. 

The girls that 1 stated beir.g put in there for meeting these boAs, at 
tjie time they were in there, they did not have enough water the 
greater part of the time they were there, a-i.d the girls in the next 
room had to pour water through paper funnels these girls had ii^iade, 
and that is the way they had enough to drink. Whereas wlien the 
other n^atron was here - Miss Gaither- she showed the girls some 
respe' t, and she talked to them as a mother would, and during the 
(lay s)je would let the girls go down to the laundry and work — and of 
course, the ghls got ]-lenty of fresji air and exercise — and in the evening 
they would go ba^k to the lockup and stay there for the night. She 
did not keep them there a week, but two or three da}s. We girls 
thought it was a disgrace then, when Miss Gaither was here, to put 
anyone in the lockup, but since Miss Ridenour has been here we girls 
have not looked at it in that way. 

The Chairman. How many young ladies or girls liave been con- 
fined in the lockup during the last school year? 

Miss — . 1 am sure 1 could not tell, but there is more than all 

t.he while Miss Gaither was here. 

Tlie Chairman. How long was Miss Gaither here ? 

Miss . She was here three or four }eai*s. Anyhow, she was 

]iere before 1 came; she was here all tlie while I was here up to last 

The Chairman. Do the rules of tJie school prescribe what offenses 
shall be punished by confinement? 

Miss . No, sir. 

The Chairman. That is left to the matron, is il not ? 

Miss . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. For what offenses are the girls usually confined in 
the lockup ? 

Miss . Miss Gaither 

The Chairman. I mean now. 

Miss . Oh, for ''sassing,"' and different things like that. 

And sometimes Miss Ridenour is really to blame for the girls sassing 
hei-, b'^cause she reallv does not speak to we girls as a matron ought 
to. We rcaUze that she has 200 or 300 girls to look after, but at the 
same time she ought to treat us as our own mothers would, for that 
is th" intentions of her being here. And instead of that she nags at 
(h" gilds and snaps at us when we go to ask her for anything, until it 
is just through fear that we go to her. 

1 think the other girls have more to sa}'. 


The witness was remiiuled that she had been sworn. 
The Chairman. Where ar<' you from ? 

Miss . My home is in Kansas. 

The Chairman. How long hnrv you been in Carlisle? 

Miss . Two years in December. 

Th<^ Chairman. What is your age i 

Miss- . I was 18 in December. 

Th" Chairman. What do you want to present to the conunission? 


Miss . I vv'ant to talk more about the expelling. When I 

came hero Miss Gaither was the matron. Of course, Miss Gaither— 
we used to go to Miss Gaither and confide in her and tell her our 
troubles, and sli-^ was mlling to tell us what to do, to tell us the best 
thing to do, and help us in every way she could. And we girls loved 
Miss Gaither. 

Representative Carter. When did Miss Gaitlier leave here ? 

Miss . Last January. 

Representative Carter. A year ago ? 

Miss . A year ago. 

Representative Carter. Wliere is she now ? 

Miss . In Phoenix, Ariz. 

Representative Carter. Why did she leave here ? 

Miss . They said she did not control the girls right, what I 


So Miss Gaither used to always talk to us girls. When we heard 
Miss Gaither was going to leave us, everybody — the girls all cried, 
they felt so bad she was going away. When she told us she was 
going away, of course, we did not want her to go, and we asked her 
where she was going. She told us one time she did not have the 
support of Mr. Friedman. In the spring, when I came here, there 
was — I can name the girls, but I can not count them: 

and they made dates 

with the boys, and the boys came over to the girls' quarters and met 
them in an empty room. 

The Chairman. Wlien was that? 

Miss . In the spring I came here; that was 1912, I think it 


The Chairman. Are there many other instances of that sort that 
come to the knowledge of the young lady pupils that you hear of ? 

Miss . There is not many, but there is a few. 

The Chairman. What suggestion have you young ladies who want 
to preserve your own reputation and the reputation of the school 
blameless, for the prevention of those things? What do you think 
ought to be done that is not being done? 

Miss . We think they ought to be expelled. We think we 

do not want to associate with such girls. 

The Chairman. You regard that as the most serious offense that 
could be committed ? 

Miss . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And instead of expelling the girls for mere displays 
of temper, or what they call impudence, a premium ought to be placed 
on refined moral conduct by expelling those who are guilty of lax 
morals ? 

Miss . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you know of cases where those things have 
occurred and where there has been no serious discipline of the offend- 

Miss . This is just the case I am trying to tell you about. 

These girls met the boys for quite a while, and Miss Gaither wantetl 
the gills to bo expelled, and Miss Gaither asked the girls what we 
thought about it, and wo told her that we thought that the girls ought 
to be expelled, and ]Mr. Friedman did not expel them. They wore 
sent home, and one girl, , was charged with forgery. 


It was up in town, and they sent hoi' home, but (Ud not oxpe.l her. 
She was in the courts clown town, or in Hariisburg, and the school 
got her deal' of that. Then she went and got in this trouble, and they 
did not expel her. She went home. 

The Chairman. Were all the young ladies in that trouble you 
referred to — meeting young men in the vacant room — wore they all 
permitted to go antl sent home without expulsion? 

Miss . I think so. 

The CiiAiRMAX. Do you know of other cases that you want to 
present ? 

Miss ^ . "\^'Tien Miss Ridenour came hoi-e, of course these girls 

were here, some of these girls were here that were in this, and of 
course Miss Gaither did not have the support of Mr. Friedman, and 
when Miss Gaither was here there was another case of a boy meeting 

a girl, and her name Avas , and the boy came to this 

gu'l's room. They did not find it out — Miss Gaither did not find it 
out, and the day Miss Gaither found it out — tlie next day this girl 
was going to go to Philadelphia to sing in some kind of church meet- 
ing. The day before she was to go Miss Gaither took this case up to 
Mr. Friedman, and Mr. Friedman became angry with Miss Gaither 
and said she should not have brought that case up until after the 
girl came back. We think Mr. Friedman used to let those girls go 
because they had some accomplishment in a certain way; he wanted 
put them up before the public and represent them as the school's best. 

Senator Lane. She had a good voice, had she ? 

Miss . She had a good voice; she had a loud voice. But 

Miss Gaither would not consent to this girl going, so she did not go. 
She was expelled, though; 

Representative Stephens. Did they send her home ? 

Miss . Yes, sir; she was expelled. 

There is another girl out in the countrv" now. Her name is • 

She ran away from here. I don't know just when she ran 

away, but they caught her, and she went to the country, and when 
she was in the country she ran awaj', and I guess she was loafing 
around the highways; she was on a track, and she met a tramp, and 
she was with a tramp a couple of daj^s. She stayed all night with 
him in the barn. And some people took it up, and she was brought 
back to the school and put in the lockup, and Miss Gaither wanted 
her expelled, and Mr. Friedman would not expel her. 

Senator Lane. How old was slie i 

Miss . She is 16 or 17. 

Miss . She is out in tlie couiitiy now. 

The Chairman. Still in coniun tioti with the scl^ool '. 

Miss . Still in connection witli the school. 

I want to say a little about tjie general feelii'g. The gills do not 
like our matron. 

The Chairman. Why (' 

Miss . Slie treats us nu-aiL 

The She is not congeninl to vow. and 1 believe you stated 
she would not receive \()ur < oniiiieiu e ( 

Miss — . The girls how arc afraid of lu-r. Thev won't go to 

lier. Of coui-se, we realize tiiat some })eople are gifted witJi (|ui(k 
tempei-s, but she always snji])s us up wlien wc go to her. 


The Chairman. Slio doos not invite your confiflonr e, and does not 
give you tJiat friendiv supervision that you believe you are entitled to ? 

Miss . No, sir. 

The Chairman. But you did appreciate Miss Gaitlier? 

Miss . Yes, sir; the girls all loved Miss Gaitlier. 

Senator Lane. Were there more eases of immorality ciuring Miss 
Gaither's time than there has been shice then, or not? 

Miss . The case that the lady told you about — tJie girls are 

still here yet. 

Senator Lane. Is the percentage of im.morality on the increase 
since Miss Gaitlier left, or is it about the same ? Were all these cases 
you have told us about when Miss Gaither was here ? 

Miss . No; there has not been so many, but we girls think 

that would not have been so if Miss Gaither had had the support of 
Mr. Friedman. 

Representative Stephens. If he had supported her and expelled 
the girls 

Miss . Yes, sir. But there has been one case. When Miss 

Ridenour came here — of course, she has been around, and she talked 
as if she would stop everything like that, but there was a case after 
she came. 

Representative Carter. Do you know how many ? 

Miss . No, sir; I do not. 

Representative Carter. Quite a good many ? 

Miss — . No ; there has not been so many. I just think of that 

case that the girls told me about. 

The Chairman. You think that if severe penalties were promptly 
enforced against young ladies who offend against the moral proprie- 
ties, that would tend to prevent the frequency of those incidents? 

Miss — . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You think that is the remedy for it ? 

Miss . Yes, sir. We girls do not agree to putting girls that 

are impudent in the same class as those immoral cases. And the 
girls do not respect our matron. They do not respect her. 

The Chairman. What sort of quarters have the young lady pupils ? 
Are your quarters satisfactory ? 

Miss . Y(s; we have very nice rooms. 

The Chairman. Is domestic science taught in this school ? 

Miss — — — . No, SU-. 

The C'hairman. What do you 1( arn here? What do you study? 

Miss . We go to school, and we take sewing. We choose — 

we can go to i\\v laundry, we can take sf-wing 

The Chairman. You have no opportunity to leaiii housekecjung? 

Miss . We can work in the hous(>. 

Th{> (Chairman. You are not taught that? 

Miss . No; you are supposed to go lo th(> connti'y. 

Th(> Chairman. On your outing })nrtirs? 

Miss . Yes, sir. 

Re))rescntative Stp:phens. Do you know anything about cooking? 

Miss . Yes; but t]\(\v do not t(^!ich it here; th(\y do out in 

the country. 

Senator TjANE. Wer(> \()U oiil in ihc country? 

Miss ■ — ■. Y(>s, sii-. 

Senator Lank. What did von do? 


Miss . Most everything. 

Senator Lane. Housework? 

Miss . Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. On the fnnu ( 

Miss . No, sir. 

Senator Lane. In the city ? 

Miss . Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. What salary did you receive lor that: what 
compensation ? 

Miss . The first year I went out I went to Ocean City, and I 

got $12 a month, and the hist time $10 a month. 

The Chairman. What work were you assigned to at Ocean City? 

Miss . I took care of the house and did the wasliing and 


The Chairman. Who were you mth ? 

Miss . George Patten, of Philadelphia. 

The Chairman. Of wliom did his family consist? 

Miss . Why, lie, his wife, and a little girl, and a grand- 
mother and an old maid aimt. 

The Chairman. Were they refined people? 

Miss . Very refined. 

The Chairman. Did they treat you well and were you pleased 
with your service among them ? 

Miss . Yes; they treated me very nice. 

The Chairman. Did you feel you were benefited by that experience? 

Miss — . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Who selected the home for you to go to? 

Miss . Miss Jennie Gaither. 

The Chairman. The ou ting agent ? 

Miss . No. 

The Chairman. How long has Mrs. La Flesche been here ? 

Miss . I do not know. She was here when I came. 

The Chairman. AVhat is her position ? 

Miss . I do not know what you call it. She gets tl^.e liomes 

for the girls. 

Representative Carter. Did you know anything rbout the young 
lady that was in jail down in Carlisle during the h()lidays--vras 
there a young lady in jail? 

Miss — — -" — . Down town during the holidays? 

Representative Carter. Yes. 

Miss . No; I do not know any thmg about that, onl's what I 

heard. That Is another case. V. hf met the boys in Vo girls' 

Anotlier thing W(m:o not ap] rove of. Wedo not tliink cases liki^ that 
ouglit to be taken outsii'e and be nade public, and g(> to court 
every time. We think tliere are A\a>s they can jaaiish the stui'ents 
in a way without takhig then^ and letting the public kn(i\v j.hoi.t such 

Representative Carter. Was she ]/uiiishe(i for what ha]^]iened 
here on the school gi'ounds ? 

Miss . She was in th^e locku]) for awhile. 

The Chairman. In the county jail ? 

Miss . Yes; in the comity jail. 

The Chairman. With the general criminals? 


Miss . I don't know. 

Representative Carter. Was it for sonething that happened here 
on the school grounds ? 

Miss — -. For something that l^appened here on the school 


The Chairman. Do you know who made the charge against her 
and had her confined in the ja'd? 

Miss . I think Miss Ridenour did. 

Senator Lane. What has become of the chikl now ? Where is she ? 

Miss . I am sure I don't know. 

Senator Lane. How okl a girl is she? 

Miss . I don't know her very well. 

Miss . 18. 

Senator Lane. Mr. Rupley states that under the laws of the State 
of Pennsylvania the offense for which this young lady was imprisoned 
was what is commonly known as fornication, and under the laws of 
Pennsylvania is a crime punishable by fine and costs. 


The witness was reminded that she had been sworn. 

The Chairman. Where are you from, Miss ? 

Miss . I am from Oklahoma. 

The Chairman. How long have you been in this school ? 

Miss . I came here September 10, 1911. 

Representative Carter. What part of Oklahoma are you from ? 

Miss . When I left home my home was between the towns 

of Shawnee and Tecumseh, about the center part of the State. 

Representative Carter. What are you ? A Pottawatomie ? 

Miss . Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. What have you got that you want to tell 
us about ? 

Miss . I have the case regarding our religion. This last fall 

in September the Catholics were denied the privilege of going down 
to confession and communion. Since the time of Col. Pratt Catholic 
students have always been allowed to go to early mass alternately, the 
boys one Sunday and the girls the next. The early inass is at 8 o'clock. 
When we asked the reason why we were deprived of this privilege 
they said we had no chaperone. Well, since the time of Col. Pratt 
the Catholic students have always been allowed to go to mass in care 
of their officers, and that practice has been kept up from his time until 
last fall, and there never has been a case that we could trace back oi 
any student making dates or doing anything wrong when the}^ went 
down to early mass, and they have always been in the care of their 

AVhen we asked where we would get a chaperone the matron told us 
that she did not know. Well, if we are <leprived of going to mass be- 
cause we have no chaperone, I should think it would be the superin- 
tendent's place to provide a chaperone for us, since he cut that out. 
On Saturdays we go to town every other week, the boys one week and 
the girls the next. We go to town in groups of three without a chape- 
rone, and we are there, and we meet all kinds of people on the street, 
are in and out of the various stones, and in the moving ]/ictures, and 
other places, without a chaperone. Now, because 15 to 30 gu'ls 


want to go to early mass to receive the sacranKiit and confession 
and communion, we are denied that right because we liave no chape- 
rone, but we are allowed to go to town without a chajierone. 

The Chairman. How many Catholic girls arv there in the school? 

Miss . I could not say how many Catholic girls. The stu- 
dents are about half Catholics. 

The Chairman. Wliat is Mi*. Friedman's religion i 

Miss . He joined the church last fall. He is an Epis- 

Senator Lane. How many hours off do you liave in the afternoon 
these eyery other Saturdays? 

Miss . We go to town right after dinner as soon as we can, 

and are supposed to be' back at 5 o'clock. That is another case I 
would like to speak about. 

Senator Lane. What happens if you don't come home on time i 

Miss . We get bad marks. 

Senator Lane. How late can you return without getting into 
serious trouble ? 

Miss . Half past 5. When Miss Gait her was here — on our 

town days we go as soon as we can get ready and be back by 5.30. 
Before we were denied the priyilege of getting down town on account 
of quarantine; the last time I was down town, there was quite a 
number of girls who were late. We did not get back until after 5 
o'clock, but before 5.30, and Miss Ridenour taken our names. She 
did not tell us we had to be back by 5 o'clock. We always had the 
understanding we had to get back before 5.30; we did not under- 
stand we had to be back by 5 o'clock. And because we came in 
after 5 o'clock and before 5.30 our names were taken, and we were 
denied the right of one of our privileges; that is, she gave us our 
choice: We could either stay home from the next social, or stay 
home from our next town day. 

Senator Lane. Which did you take? 

Miss . I took to stay home from town the next town day. 

Mr. Whitwell made out the calendar for this year, and he put in 
the calendar that these meetings should be held during the week 
between the hours of 7 and 8. I understand that those hours were 
changed from 6 to 7 o'clock by Mr. Friedman, and that was den\nng 
all the students who were at work between 6 and 7 the right of 
attending those meetings. 

While Miss Gaither was here the Protestant students had th(>ir 
meetings on Thursday evening and the Catholic students on Wednes- 
day. And she gave the girls substitutes that had to go to the religious 
meetings on the different nights. For instance, if the Catholic girls 
were working in the dining room the nights they were to go she 
would substitute Protestant girls on that evening, and the same wa}^ 
in the Protestant girls' case. But this year ah those meetings after 
su])per — say on Monday night, all the students who are at work can 
not go. They have to be deprived of that during that month. 

Representative Carter. Miss -, what time do you have 

Catholic church ? 

Miss . Early mass ? 

Representative Carter. I mean all along, difhMent tin:es (hn-in<j; 
the day. 


Miss . For early mass we have to leave here at 7 o'clock, 

and we have mass down there at 8 o'clock. 

Representative Carter. That is the first mass ? 

Miss . The first mass for the students. 

Representative Carter. When is the next ? 

Miss . Half past nine. 

Representative Carter. Then the next ? 

Miss . Well, we want to go to two masses. 

Representative Carter. You have your regular service at 11 ? 

Miss . No; they have set a time for the students to attend, 

the 9.30 mass. 

Representative Carter. They do not object to your going to the 
9.30 mass, do they ? 

Miss . No; that is the mass set for us. 

Representative Carter. You have to go to that one, and they 
won't let you go to the 8 o'clock mass? 

Miss . The priests and sisters would not object for us to 

attend the 10 o'clock mass, but it is the regulations of the school to 
attend the 9.30. 

Representative Carter. But you want to attend the early mass? 

Miss . We want the right of going to confession and com- 
munion on our different days whenever we are supposed to go, the 
girls one Sunday and the boys the next. 

Senator Lane. You can go, though, to the 9.30 mass without a 
chaperone ? 

Miss . No; there is one Catholic woman on the grounds, 

and she chaperones the girls to the 9.30 mass. She is the only 
Catholic woman on the grounds, and it is too much for her to chape- 
rone the girls at 8 o'clock, and we have to fast from midnight 

Senator Lane. That is the reason, is it? You want to get back 
and get something to eat ? 

Miss . It is too much on the students to fast from midnight 

until dinner time. 

Senator Lane. That is why you object to it? On account of 
being deprived of your early meal ? 

Miss . Our complaint is it has caused them to stop us from 

going to early mass, because we had no chaperone, and yet since the 
time of Col. Pratt until last fall we have alwa3"s went in charge of our 
officers and the girls have always conducted themselves as ladies. 

Senator Lane. What else have 3a)u to say about the general 
welfare of this institution? 

Miss . You have heard the case brought up. She 

was a girl that was not of a very good character. She had a very 
good voice, and she was taken out several times with the band, and 
on one occasion she sang for the governor in Harrisburg and was 
put as a model for the school. And she was also the star here at 
commencement time, 1912, I think it was, when she sang. When 
they put up girls of that character that is only leading weaker girls 
to evil doings, because they think if a girl of that standing can rise 
up and be ]Hit as a model before the school they also can do those 

Senator Lane. You think it puts a premium on misconduct? 

Miss - . Yes, sir. If we have somebody to represent the 

school we want their character also to be recognized, because it is 


reflcotiiig on our cluractois us \%cil; not ouiv on wo students that are 
now lu'ie, l>iit those tliat come after is, and the whcde Iiuhan race. 
The ]>iri Uc gets the ini})resaicn that if that can hapjx-ii lo the girls 
here, all the school must he (^f a lower standing. 

About 's case. You have something said about 

that. She is now on the outing system, and she was not expelled 
when she had good reasons to be expelled, while other girls were 

expelled for almost nothing. 's case — that started 

when they had the pageant in Philadelphia. There was a number of 
students w-ent there to represent the school and the Indians. I 
untlerstand the}' did not have a very good location, their boarding 
place where they stopped was not looked after in a proper \\'i\y, the 
girls and boys were thrown in together, and that is where she got her 
start. After she came back to the school she kej^t it up. Then there 
was a request from Philadelphia from some church to send a delega- 
tion over there to represent the school. 

Representative C'aetek. When was it these girls and boys were 
sent to Philadelphia ? 

^liss . The time of the pageant. 

Representative Carter. Do you remember what year ? 

^liss . It was 1911, I guess. 

Representative Carter. Who were they? 

Aliss . Mrs. Meyers is one of them. 

Representative Carter. One of the chaperones? 

Aliss . Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. What does she do. Is she one of the 
employees ? 

Miss . She was. 

Miss . She was assistant matron at that time. 

Representative Carter. And she was with the girls at that time ? 

Miss . Yes, sir. And this is what we think about that. 

If Mr. Friedman made arrangements for them to go dowai to Phila- 
delphia he should look after their w^eLfare while they w^ere there. 

Representative Carter. Undoubtedl}^ he should. Where ditl they 
stay ? At a hotel ? 

Miss — . I don't know where they stopped. 

Representative Carter. Was tliere a chaperone with them ? 

Miss • — - — — . I don't know whether she was with them all the time; 
I guess she was. I did not go myself. 

Representative Carter. Is there anybody here that was on that 
trip ? There is a young lady here that knows about it. 

Miss — . I started to tell you about the time when they asked 

for a delegation or a music committee to go down to some church fair. 
I was selected as one of them. I do not remember whether it was a 
trio or quartet of ghis. I was supposed to go down and play on the 
harp, and Fred Carden on the violui, and other girls w^ere to sing. 
Mr. Friedman issued an order that Fred and I were not to go because 
we were Catholics, so I did not get to go that time. 

Representative Carter. Was that a written order that he issued ? 

Miss. . He sent it to Mr. Stauffer. Mr. Stauffer was the one 

that told me. 

Representative Carter. He told you you were denied because you 
were Catholics ? 


Miss ■ — . Yes; l)ocaiiso this ])lacc they were going was for a 

Protestant church. And the day before she was to go, Miss Gaither 

learned of 's trouble, and re])orted it to Mr. Friedman, and he 

became furious, and asked her why didn't she wait until after she 
came back. It just looks to me like they don't care what kind of 
girls they take to represent the school, just so they have a girl that 
is accomplished in some way. We want girls whose characters shine 
as well as their accomplishments do, because it throws a reflection 
upon us just as well. 

Th? CiiAiFiMAN. What about the college spirit here at Cfirlisle '? 

Miss - — . The students do not seem to have miicli r(>specl for 
either Mr. Friedman or Miss Ridenorr. 

Senator Lane. Are they ])roud of the institution? 

Miss — . I do not know. I can not speak for the rest ( f them, 
but for myself I would be ashamed to tnke my diploma away from 
here. I am a senior, and I don't know whetlier I will ])ass or not, 
but the way things are going now I \\()iild be ashamed to get a diploma, 
because the public are getting the impression we are not a good kind 
of peo])le. 

Senator Lane. I (h) not think so. I think ('.irlislc has a good re])U- 
tation. So far as I know, I think the school is s])oken higldy of 
throughout the country. 

Miss . That is my impressi(ui (>i it, but from tilings 1 iuive 

seen going on here I can not help that im}U"(>ssion. 

Miss . We think the school is misrepresented. Mr. Fried- 
man writes stories that In-ags u]) the school, and we do not think it 
ouglit to })e done that way. We think he misre})resents the school. 
He has usod these girls with low cliaracters just to make a name for 
himself. He has all these girls u]) in public, and it seems lilce he 
selects the very lowest girls to represent the school. 

Miss - — -. In connection with the religious sul^ject, I think it is 
a regulation of the Indian schools that any Protestant shoidd not 
proselyte any students to their religion or say any tiling about it to 
them. They have the right to heli(>ve any chui-ch they wish; and 
Mr. Stiuffer has argued religion with u\v several times. 

The Chairman. Has he much influence with you? 

Miss . No; he could not have influence with me. That is 

not the point. It is because he has argued religion with me, and if 
I was weak enough to think his way he might have been able to 
influence me on his side, but if he can get hold of some student that 
is weaker than I am he is going to use his influence. He is going 
against the regulations of the Indian schools by proselyting, and it- 
is not his business to talk about our religion. 

The Chairman. Have you been going out on the outing system 
since you have been here ? 

Miss . Yes, sir. I was out^ last smunier. My flrst summer. 

The Chairman. Where did you go ? 

Miss . The first three months I was out I went to Brookline, 

a suburb of Philadelphia. The last three months I went to Morris- 
town, N. J. 

The Chairman. What did you do at Brookline? 

Miss . Housework. 

The Chairman. What did vou do in NewJersev? 


Miss . Housework; but it was much easier. When I went 

to the country 1 told Miss Johnson I wanted a home where I would 
not have to work very hard, because I had had a great deal of trouble 
with my back and I could not stand the work. When I got out there 
she told me just what I had to do, and the woman of the house did 
not know how to cook very much, and I don't know an3^thing about 
cooking, and I was depended upon to do the housework and do the 
cooking. I did not know how to cook, and she could not teach me. 

wSenator Lane. Was there a husband in the family ? 

Miss . Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. He had some pretty poor grul), then, didn't he? 

Miss — — — . I don't know about that. Their food seemed to be 
aU right, as far as that goes. 

Representative Carter. How did you like the })laces ? 

Miss . The first home I did not like; the last home 1 did. 

Representative Carter. You had too much work at the first? 

Miss . I had more work than I could stand. I was not able 

to take up all that work. The first Monday 1 was there she told me 
1 would have to help her with the washing. I told her I told Miss 
Johnson I could not do the washing, and Miss Johnson told me, too, 
J would not have to do the washing, and if I had any washing it 
woidd be very little. But when I got there the first Monday Mrs. 
Roach told me when I got there 1 would have to go down and help 
with the wash. I told her what I told Miss Johnson. I thought I 
v»-ould try it, anyhow, and I turned the wringer around once, and I 
knew I could not stand it, and I told her about this. She said I 
would not have to help with the washing, but I would have to help 
with the ironing. The last week I was there I worked very hard. 
The oldest child was about 14 and the youngest was about 2^ 
years old. 


The \\dtness was reminded that she had been sworn. 

Representative Stephens. Where are you from ? 

Miss . Oklahoma. 

Representative vStephexs. What tribe ? 

Miss . Osage. 

Representative Stephens. What do you wish to speak about ? 

Miss . The rudeness and harshness of Miss Ridenour's man- 
ner, and the way she speaks to the girls, and the way she treats them. 
The majority of the girls at this school can not go to Miss Ridenour 
the way they would go to their mothers, because she speaks rudely to 
them. She does not give them time to explain or tell their side of the 
story until she snaps them off and probably gives them what they call 
a demerit mark for what she calls "impudence." 

There is a little girl here, , and I guess the way she 

combed her hair did not please Miss Ridenour. Miss Ridenour told 
her to change it, and she took her hair dov/n and combed it and tied it. 
She wont upstairs into her room and took her hair down and combed 
it the way she wanted it, and she came downstairs and Miss Ridenour 
slapped her right and left and told her she would have to do what she 
wanted. She rules most of the girls in that way. W^hen she was out 

35601— PT 11—14 6 


in Phoenix, I guess she was used to ruhng the full-blooded Indians, and 
when she came here she did not realize that the most of the girls were 
not full-blooded Indians. Of course, she should not treat the full- 
blooded Indians any different from the others. 

Another case is 's case. She went to the reception, 

and one of her friends asked her if she would not sleep with her. Miss 

Ridenour inspected during the night, and she struck with a 

strap and woke her up. She could have awakened up in a 

nice way instead of pounding her. 

The Chairman. Was she in a different room from the one she was 
supposed to stay in? 

Miss . She was in my room; she is my roommate, but she 

was in the wrong bed. 

The Chairman. The regulation is that onlv one shall sleep in 
a bed? 

Miss . Yes, sir. 

Miss . The girls that were expelled from here last 

spring, had just come in from the countr}^. She had a sore 

foot. They had a circus down town, and the student body was 
allowed to attend the circus. It was a very windy day, and the tents 
were flying, and the man in charge of the circus tent told ]\Iiss Ride- 
nour that she should not let the girls take seats until she saw every- 
thing was all right. Miss Ridenour told the girls they should not 

take seats, and then again she told the girls they should. 

started to get a seat, and she walked up to and shook her, 

and got after her for trying to take the seat. And her sister walked 

up and said, "Miss Ridenour, has a sore foot, and if you want 

to shake anybody around here I would rather you would shake me." 
And Miss Ridenour, in public, when the people were all around there, 
she threatened to break an umbrella over their heads if they did not 
keep quiet, and she brought them back to school, and put them in 
the lockup, and finally expelled them. 

Representative Stephens. Expelled them from the school en- 
tirely ? 

Miss . Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. How long ago was this ? 

Miss . Last spring, in the month of May. 

Representative Stephens. Were all these girls expelled ? 

Miss — . No, sir; just the last case. 

Representative Stephens. What else have you ? 

Miss . While Miss Gaither was here she had an office girl - 

the oflEice girl did not always do it, but the assistant matron and the 
office girl and Miss Gaither used to take turns inspecting the girls' 
rooms during the day, and each girl that did not have her room clean 
used to get a demerit mark, and in that way — they would also put up 
a notice on a bulletin board that a certain girl's room was not clean. 
As it is, we never have inspections, only the Sunday inspections, 
and it is natural that some of the girls would fall short on keeping 
their rooms clean if they do not have to. As a general rule, the most 
of them keep their rooms clean, but there are those who do not, 
whereas if we had general inspections every day perhaps they would 
keep their cpuirters in better condition. 

mien the girls are sick she does not speak to them like she oaglit to. 
My own case — I was sick one time. I did not feel like working or 


going to school. I walked down to the ofRce and told Miss Ridenour 
in a nice way that I was sick, and asked her if I could not be excused. 
iShe spoke up and told nie in a very harsh way that she did not allow 
sick gu'ls to hang around the girls' quarters, and she would send me to 
the hospital. I told hei-, ''Very well." They have the idea around 
here that the girls play off when they get excused from work, so they 
sent me over to the hospital. I went over there and they put me to 
bed, and they did not give me anything all day but a bo\n of soup. 
They usually keep the girls over there ah day. When I came back 
to quarters that evening I had to ask for medicine. They did not 
give me anything at all but the bowl of soup for dinner. 

Representative Stephens. Were you examined by a doctor? 

Miss — . No, sir. The next morning I was sick and I went 

down to the thspensary and I asked the doctor what the hospital 
was for; that I was over there all the day before. He said he did 
not know I was over there, and that if he had known he would cer- 
tainly have done something for me. I supposed Miss Ridenour 
would have told him. 

Representative Stephens. Have you any complaint against the 
doctor ? 

Miss . No, sir; we have a very nice doctor. 

Representative Stephens. These circumstances you have related, 
did you make them known to Mr. Friedman ? 

Miss . No, sir. I did not think it would do any good to 

present such facts. It seems as though he is right in* with Miss 
Ridenour, and it would not do any good. Take, for instance, any 
time the girls want to get permission to do anything. He will send 
them right back to Miss Ridenour, as if she was the head of the 
school. Take New Year's Day. The girls wanted to go skating. 
Miss Ridenour said she had not any orders, that she would notify them 
when she had. She was not taking any steps toward getting orders. 
The girls wanted to go skating, because they had not had any priv- 
ileges. The boys were enjo^dng the skating, while the girls stayed 
home. They felt that this one day would not be much of a sacrifice 
for the boys. The girls came the second time to ask if they could 
go skating, and Miss Ridenour said she had not had any orders yet. 
They went to Mr, Friedman, and while they were there the phone 
rang, and it was Miss Ridenour, and the girls came down and she 
reprimanded the girls in a very harsh manner for taking the steps 
they had taken, and she told the girls she had asked before when 
they loiew very well she had just phoned over. 

Representative Stephens. Do the girls geneially have respect for 
either Mr. Friedman or Miss Ridenour ? 

Miss — — — . No, sir; they do not. 

Representative Stephens. For what reason? 

Miss — — • — . Miss Ridenour never treats the girls right. She never 
trusts the girls. She should take into consideration that the girls 
here are young ladies ; they know how to conduct themselves. She 
can see that there are some that do not care to conduct themselves in 
a right way, but the majority do. She does not even trust them with 
the other employees here. If you ask to go to an employee's room 
she will ask you whom j^ou are going to see — • — ' 

Representative Stephens. Why do you distrust Mr. Friedman 


Miss — — ■ — . Well — 'iiobody has any respect for him. 

Representative Stephens. What is the cause of it ? 

Miss — • — - — -. For instance, last spring they were having a little 
trouble here about cutting out the different gatherings they had, and 
Mr. Friedman called the girls down to the gymnasium and got them 
all down here, and they began to holler and hiss, and he could not 
get them quiet, and he lined them up in companies, and as soon as 
one company would stop, another would start, and he would call 
them down. 

He got them quieted down, and he gave them a talking to, and he 
came out in plain words that the faculty were not their friends because 
they wanted to be, they were paid to be, and also on that evening 
he called us "savages." 

Representative Stephens. Were there any other persons present 
besides the girls ? 

Miss — - — • — -. The student body and Miss Ridenour. When Miss 
Ridenour first came, the first evening she was at Carlisle she did not 
speak to the girls nicely at all. She came in the assembly and spoke 
to them in a very harsh manner. She left an impression, but, how- 
ever, it was not the right kind. No girl can go to her. For my part, 
I think a lady who is placed over several hundred girls should be a 
lady of more delicate qualities. I guess she feels as long as Mr. 
Friedman is back of her, that she is just as good as the superintendent 

Representative Carter. You mean she speaks to the employees in 
a dictatorial kind of way, or that she does not use proper language 
that should pass between ladies and gentlemen ? 

Miss — ' — - — . She does not speak to them as a lady should. Miss 
— • — • — • is here, and she was present at the time Miss Ridenour spoke 
about Miss Canfield in a very unladylike way. Miss Canfield is an 
employee ^ 

The Chairman. What do you mean by "unladylike" way? 

Miss — • — ■ — •. You go to her and ask her a question; you would 
think you were going to get your head bit off. 

Representative Carter. She speaks roughly and abruptly? 

Miss —^ -. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Were you on that trip ? 

Miss . No ; I was going to say that there were some girls 

who were present. C — ■ ■ M— was one of the girls to go to 

the pageant. 

The Chairman. Any others that you know of ? 

Miss . No, sir; I think that she is the only one. 


.The witness was reminded that she had been sworn. 

Senator Lane. Where are you from ? 

Miss . Minnesota. 

Representative Carter. You are a Chippewa? 

Miss . Yes, sir; I have the same subject as Miss , 

about how Miss Ridenour treats the girls. 

Senator Lane. Tell us what you know. 

Miss -. She does not seem to treat the girls right when they 

first come. Some new girls just arrived here some few weeks ago. 


I guess she thought they did not know very much, and she did not 
make them feel at home. They had a chaperonc that came with 
them, and she just came from town, I think, and they were going 
down there to meet her, and I guess she thought they were running 
away, and she jerketl them by the arm, with the boys out on the 
campus and everything, and slie shipped one of the girls. 

Senator Lane. How old was the girl ? 

Miss . I do not know how old the girls are. They must 

have been 18 or 19 years old. 

Senator Lane. In public was it ? 

Miss . Yes, sir; down on the main walk. 

Senator Lane. They were just coming here ? 

Miss . They were here alreaciy. They had been here about 

a day or two. 

Senator Lane. Is sh" a heavy, muscular woman ^ 

Miss . Miss Ridi-nour? Yes, sir; she is. Whenever they 

would see this chaperone th' y would go to meet her. Th(^y were 
crying all the time, and instead of trying to make them a/t home or 
getting the girls togt^thcr, like Miss Gaithor would — when nevv^ girls 
came she would tell the girls to go in and entertain them, and she has 
never done that with any new girls. She starts to scold them right 
away, the first day they get here. That does not make them feel 
very good. She could have talked to them in a different way than 

Of course. Miss has told you about her slapping those girls 

in bed. 

None of us girls ever feel like going to Miss Ridenour with any of 
our troubles 

The Chairman. That complaint s< ems to be quite general among 
you, and it does sc em that Miss Ilid( nour must bo tactless, to say the 
least, in not having the confidence of some of the young ladies. Did 
you ever try to win her confidence and affection? What has been 
the attitude of the 5''oung ladies in the school in that regard ? Did 
it ever occur to you that she might have a pretty hard road herseK ? 

Miss . When Miss Ridenour fiist came she did not speak to 

us girls as if she was glad to come here or anything, but she snapped 
right at us, and, of course, that gave us the impression that she was 
not the kind of a woman to rule over girls. We know that Miss 
Ridenour has a record of good discipline, but she did not exercise 
her fliscipline in the right way when she first came. From that time 
she has just nagged at the girls. 

The Chairman. You say that when new pupils come here she does 
not make an effort to make them comfortable ? 

Miss . Not that I know of. 

The Chairman. But censures them, and does not treat them 
kindly ? 

Miss . Yes, sir. I know most of the girls feel that way 

toward her. When they get into trouble at all they fear her. They 
would not tell her hke they would in former years, like they did with 
Mss Gaither. She would take us to her room and explain right and 
wrong, but we do not feel that way about Miss Ridenour. 

I know there was a time when we went to get that permission to 
go skating. I was the one that went and asked. It seemed that the 
boys had the privilege to go down and skate for a whole week, and 


the girls had not had permission, and I thought the boys ought to 
sacrifice one day for the girls, as the girls had been kept in the house 
so much. So I went down and asked her, and she snapped me oflF, 
saying, "I have not had any orders for you to go skating." Of 
course, when we want anything like that we might as well stay out 
of the office all together. 

The Chairman. How about the feeling toward Mr. Friedman? 
Could you go to him with your troubles '? 

Miss . I have not thought much about it. He would send 

me back to Miss Ridenour; I think so. 

The Chairman. What is the feeling generally among the young 
ladies toward Mr. Friedman ? 

Miss . Well, I guess 

The Chairman. Do they like him ? 

Miss . I do not think any of them that I have heard. Nearly 

every girl I know seems to dishke him. They do not seem to show 
any respect toward him. 

Something about music: Some of the girls came here — I know I 
came here with the impression we could take music- — piano lessons 
or sometliing. I was anxious to take lessons and I went to Mr. Stauf- 
fer. The first year I came here I went to him and asked him if I 
could take music lessons and he said he would take my name. He 
took my name, and he never let me in. So then I let it go and my 
mother kept waiting to me telhng me I ought to take music lessons. 
I asked him again this year to take my name and he said he would 
take it, and he did. I have known lots of girls, and he has taken 
other girls in — new girls — and he has left me out. This is mv third 
y6ar here, and he has never given me a chance. 

Senator Lane. W^hy? 

Miss . I don't know why. 

Representative Carter. Does he have the naming of the music 
pupils ? 

Miss . Why, I don't know. I have heard it said that he 

does not want to take anybody in unless they are advanced in music. 

Representative Carter. W'ho selects the pupils that take music ? 

Miss . Nobody that I know of. 

The Chairman. Are they permitted to take it when they want to ? 

Miss . I know the catalogues say we can take music if we 

come here. 

Senator Lane. You appeal to him because he is the music teacher ? 

Miss . Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you ever bring the matter to the attention of 
the superintendent? 

Miss . No, sir; I have not. 

The Chairman. Why don't you do that? 

Miss . 1 just neglected. He has sent girls to Mr. Stauffer. 

I have known girls that went to him and he said, "See Mr. Stauffer." 

The Chairman. What interest does he take in the school — Mr. 
Friedman ? Wliat does he do about you ? 

Miss . I do not know. I could not answer that, I guess. 

The Chairman. What class are you in? 

Miss . I am taking business. 

The Chairman. Are vou a graduate of the school ? 


Miss . No, I am not. I fiiii^ied at home in the eighth 


The Chairman. How often do you see him about your class 
rooms ? 

Miss . Sometimes once in three months lie comes around. 

He comes into the rooms. 

The Chairman. ^^Tiat does he do when he comes to the rooms ? 
1 mean to the study rooms. What does he do when he comes there? 

Miss . He comes in there and asks liow you are getting 

along and how long you have been there. 

The Chairman. How many gi]ls are theie in tlie Inisiness depart- 
ment ? 

Miss . There must be eight or nine. 

The Chairman. Who is at the head? 

Miss . Miss Moore. She stays downtown. 

The Chairman. You think he comes around about once in three 
months and asks how you are getting on ? 

Miss . I could not say it is once in three months, but he has 

not been in there very often. 

The Chairman. How long have you been in there ^ 

Miss . Three years now. 

The Chairman. How long does he stay when he comes around, as 
a rule ? 

Miss . About five minutes, as a rule. He comes in and takes 

oflF his hat, and Miss Moore shows him papers and he walks off. 

Representative Carter. What are you taking? Stenography? 

Miss . Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. How long have you been taldng it? 

Miss . Three years. Miss Moore was jnst a student herself. 

She started in there, and she had a large class and she liad to teach 
each one individually. It was kind of discouraging at first. Of 
course I have been in the hospital quite a while since I came, and I 
went home last year before commencement, and I missed about tlu"ee 

Representative Carter. You have been in tlie hospital? Your 
health is bad ? 

Miss . It has been. I caught cold and I was over there 

three weeks at a time. 

The Chairman. I behevo we have one more witness 3'et. 


The witness was reminded that slie had been sworn. 

Senator Lane. Where are you from i 

Miss . Michigan. 

Representative Carter. What tribe ? 

Miss . Chippewa. My subject is the feeling of the girls in 

general. The feeling of the girls in general toward Miss Ridenour is 
anything but kindness. It seems we can not go to her as w^e would 
like to go to a mother and speak to her about our troubles because of 
her rude manner of speech and thoughtlessness of others' feelings. 
On many occasions wdien we want something w^e go in the office and 
ask her for it in a kindly way, and she never gives us a nice answer, 
as she should. One time I went in there asking for some ink, and I 


did not get it. She gave some of her answers, and I came out with- 
out getting the ink. 

Representative Carter. Miss , is this feehng universal 

among the students, or are there some of the students that this 
matron Ukes and some that hke her ? 

Miss — . No, sir; I don't think you Avill find many. Very few. 

Representative Carter. Are there any at all ? 

Miss . I don't think so. 

Representative Carter. Not a single one ? 

Miss . I don't think so. 

Representative Carter. They are all opposed to her ? 

Miss . All opposed to her. 

Representative Carter. Even these girls that the other young 
ladies have told about, who have committed infractions of the rules 
for which they should be expelled, they do not like her? 

Miss . None of them. 

Representative Carter. What is the feelbig toward Mr. Friedman ? 

Miss . It seems they have no respect for j\Ir. Friedman — 

the manner in which he talks to us like savages and all that. 

Representative Carter. He does not have any respect for an 
Indian, you think? 

Miss ■ — . I mean the students. 

Representative Carter. I say, you think Mr. Friedman does not 
have any respect toward an Indian ? 

Miss . From my standpoint, I don't think so. 

Representative Carter. Do you thmk when he is calling them 
savages he is really in earnest about it, or is just joldng ? 

Miss . It does not seem that way. 

Representative Carter. These fellows here sometimes call me a 
savage dow^l at Washington, but I never got very mad at them 
about it. 

Miss . Another thing about Miss Ridenour: We have not 

a,ny recreation hours here, whereas when i\Iiss Gaither was here — the 
former matron — we had two nights out of each week to go to the 

gymnasium to play in there, and ever since Miss Ridenour has been 
ere we have never had a night. The only exercise we have is going 
to school and to work. Wlien we ask her to go to the gymnasium for 
exercise she saj^s, ' 'Go to work; that is enough exercise." That is 
the answer we get. 

Representative Carter. Have you anything else, Miss ? 

Miss . I think not. 

The Chairman. ^Vllat about the food ? 

Miss . There has been a great change since Mr. Linnen has 

been here. 

The Chairman. He has helped that much, has he ? 

Miss . We have had enough bread, I know, since he has 

been here. 

The Chairman. I think that is all. I thank you very much. 

Thereupon, at 11 o'clock p. m. the commission stood adjourned to 
meet to morrow, Saturday, February 7, 1914. 


FEBRUARY 7, 1914. 

Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs, 

Carlisle, Pa. 
The joint commission met in the Y . M. C. A. liall at the Carlisle 
Indian School, Carlisle. Pa., at 8.30 o'clock a. m. 

Present: Senators Robinson (chairman) and Lane; Representa- 
tives Stephens and Carter. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. You are assistant disciplinarian at the Carhsle 
Institute ? 

Mr. Denny. Yes. 

The Chairman. How long have you been so engaged ? 

Mr. Denny. Since 1907. 

The Chairman. Were you at the school or in any wise connected 
with it prior to that time ? 

Mr. Denny. I was a student. 

The Chairman. How long were you a student in Carlisle? 

Mr. Denny. Ten years. 

The Chairman. Wliere were you from when you came here? 

Mr. Denny. Oneida, Wis. 

The Chairman. Are you a full-blood ? 

Mr. Denny. Well, I do not think so; I think about seven-eighths, 
or somet'iing like that. 

Representative Stephens. Of what tribe are you ? 

Mr. Denny. Oneida, of Wisconsin. 

The Chairman. Have you, during the time you have been em- 
ployed here served in the same capacity you are now serving ? 

Mr. Denny. Yes, sir. Assistant disciplinarian. 

The Chairman. You liave been, I presume, familiar with condi- 
tions in the school during your whole time as assistant disciplinarian? 

Mr. Denny. Yes. 

The Chairman. What are the general conditions now prevailing 
at Carlisle with reference to discipline and good order among the 
pupils ? 

Mi\ Denny. The discipline hi our school here has been very poor; 
very poor. 

The Chairman. Is it improving, in A'our judgment? 

Mr. Denny. Growing worse. 

The Chairman. How long has it been growing worse ? How long 
has that condition existed ? 

Mr. Denny. I should say from one to three years. 

The Chairman. Who is the chief disciplinarian ? 

Mr. Denny. Mr. McKean. 

The Chairman. To what do you attribute the bad order and its 
increase in the school ? What is the cause of this lack of discipline 
that is growing worse ? 

Mr. Denny. Going a little way back 

The Chairman. You may state anything you desu-e. 

Mr. Denny. We had a superintendent here — Maj. Mercer, and 
during his time the pupils were allowed to dance as many as two to 


three times a week, and just a general good times and tiial lasted 
four years. When Mr. Friechnan came here he HMluced those social 
privileges at the school, and it seems that the pupils have turned 
against him ever smce. It seems to me the pupils were here just to 
have a good time. We have students here — more students 15 to 
20 years of age, and of course they just looked at the fun and good 
time. Mr. Iriedman, the supermtendent, got to the point wiiere 
he gave one reception during the month, and one sociable. W"'ll, 
then tliey just thought he was against them all the time, and he put 
liarder work in their school. He substituted from a quiet liour to 
a study hour— regular scliool work in the evening and less sociable. 

And their meals — they do not get a very good meal here. I must 
admit that, because I was detailed in the dining room. Every third 
day I go in there. 

The Chairman. As I understand you, the following are among the 
causes: First, the curtailment of social privileges; second, an increase 
of the students' work 

Mr. Denny. Well, harder work. 

The (^HAiRMAN. Harder work; tJiird, the ])oor nu^als that are 
served them; and, foiu'th 

Mr. Denny. I want to mention the fourth. I do not know whether 
this will come under that, but the fourth is that the employees do Jiot 
work in harmony with the superintendent. I am safe to say that 
about three-fourths of them are against the superintendent; in fact, 
perha]:)s more. And those employees — I have heard it myself — 
have discussed freely the superintendent's work before the students, 
and of course, that arouses them. 

The Chairman. Now, there is a feeling of general hostility on the 
part of the students and on the part of tlu* greater ])art of the em- 
ployees toward the superintendent ? 

Mr. Denny. Yes. 

The Chairman. You have explained some of the reasons that have 
caused this feelino; on the part of the pupils toward the superintend- 
ent. Now, what IS it that has so arrayed the employees against him ? 
Why is it they do not cooperate with him ^ 

Mr. Denny. The superintendent, his intentions are all right, as far 
as I know. He has got his heart in the W(U-k, and he is a hard worker; 
but it seems to Tue lie is unfortunate; he is not a man that appeals to 

1 he Chairman. He can not secure the confidence of the pupils and 
the employees ? 

Mr. Denny. Yes; that is it; I can not express it. 

The Chairman. What do you think is the remedy for these condi- 
tions ? You may express yourself freely. What can be done ? Is 
it necessary that something be done about the school; and if so, 
what do you think ought to be done? 

Mr. Denny. Yes. The only thing that has got to be done — that is, 
you have got to change the head. 

The Chairman. Got to get a new superintendent ? 

Mr. Denny. Yes; a new superintendent, or something iias got to 
be done, to t^ll you the truth. 

The Chairman. Wliat do you tJiink of the school in its general 
conditi(»ns and work? Do the pupils take hold of their studies with 


M\ Denny. Yes; those I have, they take hold of tlieir work; but 
of course — I can not tell you, but there certainly is funny atmosphere 
around here. 

The Chairman. Now, would you characterize that atmosphere? 
Is it one of mutiny or mere dissatisfaction and discontent ? 

Mr. Denny. Dissatisfaction. 

The Chairman. The dissatisfaction is general, is it < 

Mr. Denny. Yes. 

The Chairman. Now, you have referred to the meals not being 
satisfactory when you were detailed to the dining room. I wish you 
would be a little more explicit about that and tell wherein they were 
not satisfactory. What did they serve, and how was it served ? 

Air. Denny. As far as I could see— I walked around the dining 
room, all over the dining room, and we are short of grub, we are short 
of bread; everybody would be asking for bread, and before the 
mati-on comes they tell the students there is no more bread in the 
dining room, and we know that there is plenty of it in the bakery 
shop. There is plenty of it in the cupboard, but they are allowed 
just so much. Then we go to work and tap the bell to get them 
quiet, and at the tap of the bell begin to send them out. They are 
dissatisfied and kind of unruly. I don't say they are bad, but they 
are hungry, and it is a mighty hard thing to please them. 

The Chairman. Now, you are a man of experience and had long 
been a student at the school before you were an employee here. 
You say you believe a sufficient quantity of bread has not been 
served to the pupils, and they were forced to go hungry on that 
account ? 

Mr. Denny. Yes. 

The Chairman. Why is that true? Bread is cheap. Do you 
understand why the policy of the administration of the school per- 
mits a condition like that ? 

Mr. Denny. I did try to trace it back, and pretty near got into 
trouble about it. I went right straight to the superintendent and I 
reported, so he called a meeting, I think, twice — yes; twice — and 
they tried to look into it. It included the quartermaster, the cook, 
the matron, the dining-room matron, and the girls' matron, and the 
large boys' disciplinarian, and ]\ir. Stauffer, the music teacher, and 
the baker, and they tried to remedy that. It went all right a day or 
so, and then went right back. The quartermaster says to the superin- 
tendent he is allowed to feed them just so much, and he is going to 
stay at that limit. 

The Chairman. Who fixes the limit? 

Mr. Denny. He told me that there is a rule set for them, and he 
can not go beyond that. The reason why I took this up to the 
superintendent, because I know something is going to bust in the 
dining room — something is going to give somewhere. 

The Chairman. There is great dissatisfaction there, and you think 
there is liable to be serious trouble about it ? 

Mr. Denny. Yes; I realize — for instance, there is 10 large boys 
weighing from 150 up to nearly 200 pounds, 10 at a table, and they 
are growing, from 18 to 21, and they need to eat a lot more than I do, 
because I have sto])ped growing and those fellows are just growing. 
Thev have lots of life and lots of exercise outside in the air. 


The Chairman. Their period of Ufe calls for an abundance of 
food, of course? 

Mr. Dexny. Yes. 

The Chairman. And they do not get it? 

Mr. Denny. They do not get it. 

The Chairman. Have you noticed the service there with reference 
to knives and forks and cups ? Has there been trouble about that ? 

Mr. Denny. Yes. 

The Chairman. Tell us what it is. 

Mr. Denny. I complamed to the dining-room matron about it, 
and she says she could not get it. 

The Chairman. You mean there was not a sufficient supply of 
them ? 

Mr. Denny. They liave them here at the storehouse, as far as I 

The Chairman. I mean in the dining room. 

Mr. Denny. In the dining room they do not have enough, and, 
of course, the boys — the boys, they are not going to eat the proper 
way. They are going to make the best of it. Excuse me, I started 
to make a statement a while ago that the boys realize — they say in a 
report that Congress appropriated $170,000 or $172,000 for the 
school, and we have plenty of hogs here at the school, and they are 
sold. They realize that. 

The Chairman. Are the products of the farm here used on the 
table, or are they sold ? 

Mr. Denny. We use all of the vegetables right here. They can 
them in the fall, and then they used them to the students. 

The Chairman. What about the meats ? 

Mr. Denny. The hogs are sold, and, of course, they do not butcher 
here any cattle. The cattle we have here they use for butter and 

The Chairman. Hov,' often do they serve butter here ? 

Mr. Denny. I can not say. I suppose about t\^^ce a week or three 
times a week. In summer time they serve more, because then they 
do not have so many students. 

The Chairman. How often do they serve milk ? 

Mr. Denny. I do not think they give them milk. 

The Chairman. Do they get any eggs ? 

Mr. Denny. No; we do not have any chickens. There are a few. 

The Chairman. The}' do not serve any eggs on the table ? 

Mr. Denny. No. 

The Chairman. What are the moral conditions in the school ? Is 
there much drinking among the boys ? 

Mr. Denny. There has been. 

The Chairman. Is it increasing or gromng less ? 

Mr. Denny. It has been better this year than it used to be, but the 
moral condition of the school here — it is better — well, it is a little 
better than I have known that it was, than what it ought to be. 

The Chairman. What is the (Irinking attributable to? Is there 
much drunkenness ? 

Mr. Denny. No. Those pupils that are (h-unkards before they 
came here are the ones that are carr>dng on that. 

The Chairman. What do you do with a boy when he gets drunk ? 


Mr. Denny. Put him in the <;U:a(lh(.u-t'. We have a guardhouse 
for that purpose. 

The Chairman. How long do you keep them there, as a ruh^ ( 

Mr. Denny. I tell you my position here. I am in charge of the 
small boys, and of course they do not get drunk. 

The Chairman. You do not get any of those ? 

Mr. Denny. That just runs to the large bo3"s. As far as I know, 
I think, from one week to 10 days, or something Uke that. 

The Chairman. What are the regulations of the school with refer- 
ence to the punishment of the boys under your jurisdiction ? What 
right have 3'ou to punish them and what kiiid of punishment are you 
authorized to inflict ? 

Mr. Denny. Well, I have locked them up at times when it is nec- 
essary for a few days. I had one drunk this fall, and I locked him 
up, I think, about a week or so. 

The Chairman. Do you whip them ( 

Mr. Denny. Mr. Friedman gave me orders, and I don't whip 
them any more. The}' are sometimes a little tart, you know, and I 
put them across my knee and spank them. 

The Chairman. Wliat is the name of the bo}^ that was said to 
have been struck by your fist and hit by a ring above the eye here ? 

Inspector Linnen. The boy who testified, his name was Braun. 

Mr. Denny. That was Ira Cloud. The boy came back here — he 
served here five years. He paid his own way, and when he got back 
here he went to the hospital. Right away he had chicken pox, 
and he was unruly in the hospital, and they could not control him. 
Of course, as soon as they released liim I got him back, and before 
I had a chance to put him in the shops at liis trade I kept him around 
the quarters, and I could not make him work. I can not put him to 
work. Weil, while he works, he will shirk, and during the summer 
he told me himself he was drinking heavily — he was doing as he 
pleased. He has not got a father — well, he has a father, but not a 
legal one. 

When I did go for him I asked him what was the reason he was 
doing this, and he told me that he paid his way back to CarUsle 
and could do exactly as he pleased — a boy about 17 years old. I 
told him to do the work, and he deliberately refused. I tried to 
put him to work in the afternoon, and he went to the store. I sent 
for the boys and we got him back, and he was .very impudent to me. 
He showed fight right away, and we had a regular })oxing match. 

The Chairman. Did he strike you ? 

Mr. Denny. Yes; right straight in my face. I was not ready; he 
could not have hit me if I was ready. He certainly did soak me. 

The Chairman. You struck him wlien he struck you ( 

Mr. Denny. I struck him, and I locked him up for a day. 

The Chairman. Did you knock him down ( 

Mr. Denny. No; he went backward. 

The Chairman. Did you have on a ring tliat cut his eye? 

Mr. Denny. No; only this one here [exhibiting a plain band ring]. 

The Chairman. He struck you first ? 

Mr. Denny. Yes; he struck me first. 

The Chairman. There were some other boys that you were said to 
have struck and knocked down a stairv.av. You remember that? 


Mr. Denny. Yes; I threw him down stairs. "VVe had a kind of 
little insurrection here. One night the lights went out, and I got 
my officer around the quarters there to control the door, and the 
boys liked to jump out of the quarters, carrying on high. It was on 
a masquerade night. I was standing in the hallway. There was 
no lights, and they threw a stone — they knew where I was standing. 
They threw a stone and just happened to miss me, and they threw 
coal, in there near my office. It was pitch dark. I came out on the 
porch. One of the boys back in the quarters he came up on the 
porch, and he hit me with all his might, and he jumped back in the 
quarters. I saw the boy. I recognized him at once, and I went up, 
and he lied to me, and I told him to come down in the office. Refer- 
ring to this boy — James Kalawat — he came from jail to Carlisle, 
right from jail, and I always had trouble with him ever since he has 
been here. 

The Chairman. When you went back there — — • 

Air. Denny. I brought him down and we had a tussle. I told him 
to come down in the office. I wanted to see the boy — what was the 
object of his hitting me like that. I brought him down; I got him 
down the steps, down the stairway, and got him down in my office 
by force. We had to tussle. He was a pretty good-sized boy. This 
was last fall. 

The Chairman. You were trying then to suppress disorder ? 

Mr. Denny. Yes, sir; to suppress insurrection at the school. The 
large boys went to work and they tore the bleachers down. They 
cut Mr. McKean's head that very same night. Somebody hit him 
with a stone. 

The Chairman. What did that boy hit you with I 

Mr. Denny. He grabbed hold of the stuff that was lying up there 
in that trash box. I saw him running there, and the boys told me 
about it, but I did not lock them up because they threw everything 
down. I was trying to catch the boy. 

The Chairman. Are you charged with any responsibility for the 
conduct of the larger boys ? 

Mr. Denny. No; I am not. I went by here last week and a fellow 
on the third floor hit me with a chair — just missed my head. That 
is the condition we have here. I have never done anything to the 
larger boys. That is the attitude we have here toward those who are 
trying to control the boys. For my part, I am trying to control those 
boys. I myself admit I have some pretty bad boys. 

The Chairman. Have you thought of a plan to stop so much 
drinking in the school among the pupils ? 

Mr. Denny. The only way you could stop that is to have a stand- 
ard. Before the pupil would enter the school you would have some 

The Chairman. And not admit drunkards and drinkers to the 
school ? 

Mr. Denny. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You think they do not contract the habit of drink- 
ing hoi'e, but contract it before they come here ? 

Mr. Denny. Before they come here. That has been proven in 
every case. 


The Chairman. 11" it is true iJuit tlie diinkini^ luibit is not con- 
ti'iicted here but is contracted befoi-e the student conies, your sugges- 
tion woukl seem to me to be a very intelligent one, because it would 
prevent a demoralization that naturally results to refuse to admit 
])upils wlio have a record for (h'iidving. Do you know whetlier any 
effort is made to ascertain the habits of l)oys before they are admitted 
to the school ^ 

Mr. Denny. Not to my knowledge. 

The Chaihman. Anyoody is a(hnitted without regard to his rccmd ? 

Mr. Denny. Yes; wo have some des])eratc cases liere. 

I want to m;d<:e a suggestion here. This drinking goes on here, 
and a kind of insurrection is always st.-irted i>y something like what 
we call the "white trash" here. ])oys with just a little Indian Mood. 
Like •>ootlegging — those l)oys coidd put their citizens' clothes on and 
go to town in any saloon and get the whisky and ])riiig it hack here 
and give it to the hoys, or give it to them in town. 

The Chairman. Hov/ many of tliat class of Ik ys are in tlie school ? 

Mr. Denny. Not so very many. I could not say in round numbers. 

The Chairman. Don't you tliink that by calling the attention of 
the (ifficers to these boys the persons who sell liquor in the town 
coidd he prevented from furnishing them lituior? 

Mr. Denny. You can hardly tell. The 'l)urtenders in town will 
not — I know there is not one Ijurtendcr that will whisky to an Indian 

The Chairman. If he knows it? 

Mr. Denny. Yes. 

The Chairman. It would seem that if the oflicei-s could oecome 
acquainted with the boys in school who have so much white hlood in 
them that there in no noticea])le Indian Idood, it might be very 
easily prevented. 

Mr. Denny. Yes. I give you an instance. This Louis Braun tiiat 
was here last night I sent the boys in full imiform to cha])el with 
the rest of the students. That Louis Braun sneaked out back of my 
quarters, and another large boy, a white boy, a cousin of his, ])assed 
him his citizen's clothes through the window, and he was changing 
his clothing to leave the groimds for the niglit. Tiiose are the khid 
of characters we have here. 

The Chairman. Is Louis Braun among the tough boys in the school ? 

Mr. Denny. No; not really. He has never done wrong here. He 
goes to school all day and eats and sleeps largely. 

The Chairman. What is the relationshij) betwe(>n the su])erin- 
tendent and the bandmaster ? 

Mr. Denny. A very close friend, as Far as I could understand. 

The Chairman. Does he a])])ear to exeit any influence or control 
over the superinteiulent ? 

Mr. Denny. Yes. 

The Chairman. In what particular? 

Mr. Denny. Well, his suggestions; the siiggestions that he nndces; 
his general stand. This bandmastei- is just a h-andmaster; he is not 
a disci])linarian, Init lie is tak(Mi in about the disciiilinc of the school. 



The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

Tlie Chairman. You are the wife of the assistant disciplinarian? 

Mrs. Denny. Yes, sir; of the small boys' quarters. 

The Chairman. Were you formerly employed at Carlisle yourself? 
Mrs. Denny. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. In what capacity? 

Mrs. Denny. I entered as a teacher, taught four years, and then I 
was clerk and assistant clerk for eight years, and in charge of the 
outing system for two years. 

The Chairman. Do you live on the school premises ? 

Mrs. Denny. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How long have you lived there? 

Mrs. Denny. You mean, taking my time as a student? 

The Chairman, All together, yes. 

Mrs. Denny. All together, I came here in 1880. 

The Chairman. Have you been here practically continuously 
since ? 

Mrs. Denny. I was three years at home and about four years at a 
normal school, but while I was at the normal school my name was 
kept on the rolls here. 

The Chairman. Are you familiar witli conditions ])revailing in 
tlie Carlisle Institute ? 

Mrs. Denny. Pretty well. 

The Chairman. What is i\\v condition here with reference to 
discipline among the students ? Is it good or bad ? How do the 
pupils esteem the superintendent and what is the relationship 
between students as a whole and the superintendent? 

Mrs. Denny. I think they do not like him in the first place and 
they do not seem to be afraid of him. 

The Chairman. Do they respect him ? 

Mrs. Denny. They do not respect him. 

The Chairman. How long has tliis condition been prevailing in 
tlie school. 

Mrs. Denny. It has been growing. I can not say just when it 
started, ])ut last year and this year it has been pretty bad. 

The Chairman. What are the moral conditions ? 

M]-s. Denny. Pretty good now among the girls. Of course, I can 
not tell very much aljout the large boys. 

The Chairman. Do you hear of much drinking among the boys ? 

Mrs. Denny. Yes, sir. Not among oui- boys. 

The Chairman. Tlie larger boys ? 

Mrs. Denny. No. The small boys. We have liad only one drunk 
ill small l)oys' cjuai'ters this 3^ear. 

The Chairman. What ages are embraced within the small boys' 
(juarters ? 

Mrs. Denny. I think from 8 or 9 years u]) to about 20. Some of 
our ofiicers are about 20 years old, I think. 

The Chairman. Wliat nvo the cliarac^teiistics of the disorder that 
you obs(n"ve and hear of among the ])upils ? 

Mi's. De.nn'y. One of them is di-unkenness, and going lo town 
without permission and not in u.niforms as they are required to be. 
Well. thi'„t is what 1 can se(> oulwai'dly. 


The Chairman. Have you seen or heard manifestations of dis- 
courtesy or disrespect from the students to the superintendent ? 

Mrs. Denny. Just lately I heard. 

The Chairman. Tell us about it. 

Mrs. Denny. I think it was Mr. Denny that told me about it. 
I forget where I got my information. 

The Chairman. You do not know of your own personal knowledge ? 

Mrs. Denny. No. 

The Chairman. Well, you need not state it then. Have you 
observed how the children are clothed and fed ? 

Mrs. Denny. I have heard that they have not always had enough 
food, and in my experience while I was outing agent I know they do 
not get sufficient clothing while out. 

The Chairman. When was that? 

Mrs. Denny. This was about two years ago. 

The Chairman. What about shoes ? 

Mi's. Denny. In very bad condition. We had more requests for 
shoes from outmg pupils, but they refused to furnish them. They 
said they had used up their allowance, and consequently they either 
had to take their earnings or patrons would give them shoes. 

The Chairman. Have you ever visited the din'uig room while pupils 
\ '3re being served ? 

Mrs. Denny. Not recently. I have now and then taken visitors 
jii there. 

The Chairman. Is the complaint general among the pupils that 
they are not properly fed ? 

Mrs. Denny. I have heard it from the girls, and I have heard it 
from the boys. 

The Chairman. Do they complam they do not get enough bread ? 

Mrs. Denny. Yes, sir; that is the complaint, and that the food is 
not always properly cooked. They have a sufficient amount, but 
not well cooked sometimes. 

The Chairman. What is the general state of feeling on the part of 
pupils at Carlisle now toward the management of the school ? 

Mrs. Denny. I think they are — well, discouraged. 

The Chairman. Are they rebellious ? 

Mrs. Denny. At one time last spring they showed very strong 
evidence of it. And this sprmg, too — of course I do not see this 
myself, but I heard that they were, and I know that last year that 
spirit was very strong, and now it seems to be. There is an under- 
current that we all feel, but we just can not explain. 

The Chairman. What is the relationship between the superintend- 
ent and the employees ? Do you know how they regard him ? 

Mrs. Denny. There is great discord, I think, in a great many cases. 

The Chairman. What do you think is the remedy for the condi- 
tions here ? 

Mrs. Denny. It would bo either the removal of several employees, 
or the removal of the head; one or the other. 

The Chairman. One of those two remedies might prove successful 
in restoring order in the school and bringing better conditions ? 

Mrs. Denny. I hope so; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Have you any antagonism or personal animosity 
toward the superintendent ? 

35601— PT 11—14 7 


Mrs. Denny. Not any. 

The Chairman. Your relationship with the employees was pleasant ? 

Mrs. Denny. Yes, sir; it is, and always has been. 

Representative Stephens. Have you a bakery here in the school? 

Mrs. Denny. Yes, sir; quite a good bakery. 

Representative Stephens. Where do they get their flour and ma- 
terials ? 

Mrs. Denny. I really do not know that. 

Representative Stephens. Do they have any flour ground from 
wheat raised on the school farm? 

Mrs. Denny. I do not know that. 

Representative Stephens. They raise vegetables on the farm, 
don't they? 

Mrs. Denny. Yes, sir; most of the vegetables are raised in the 
garden we have down here. 

Representative Stephens. Are those used on the tables ? 

Mrs. Denny. I think they are. 

Representative Stephens. Do they make butter, and have you 
milk from the cows that belong to the school ? 

Mrs. Denny. They have separated milk, I think, and butter about 
once a week, I have heard the girls say. 

Representative Stephens. Do they sell any of the butter from 
the cows belonging to the school? 

Mrs. Denny. I could not say about that. 

Representative Stephens. Do you know anything about the sys- 
tem of getting students here from all over the country? Do they 
send men out from this school to collect students ? 

Mrs. Denny. Now and then they do; but I think most of that work 
is done by correspondence, which Mr. Meyer handles. 

Representative Stephens. Mr. Meyer then writes to the reserva- 
tions and parents of the children ? 

Mrs. Denny. Yes; and to ex-students and graduates. He works 
through them. 

Representative Stephens. Works through the students that have 
been here, and they collect the students that are sent here ? 

Mrs. Denny. Yes; and then, I think the agents 1 know that 

agents and other emploj^ees have brought several parties here. 

Representative Stephens. Are they brought here against their 

Mrs. Denny. I do not think so. I do not think any pupils are re- 
ceived before they sign what they call an application blank. 

Representative Stephens. Do you know anything about the girl 
that was beaten by Bandmaster Stauffer? 

Mrs. Denny. I heard about that last spring. 

Representative Stephens. You did not see it? 

Mrs. Denny. I did not see it; no, sir; I do not know much about 
the circumstances. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

Mrs. Canfield, I have been at Carlisle 14 years and in the Indian 
Service 20 years. My experience entitles me to stand in protection 
of these children. 


Mr. Friedman has given his first attention to the outside appear- 
ance of the school, but there is nothing in buildings when the moral 
standing of the school is neglected. 

He has used the good name Gen. Pratt made for the school to ad- 
vertise himself. I feel that he is wholly unfit for superintendent^ 
that he has neglected his duty to the pupils in talking to them and 
advising them. 

Gen. Pratt never failed in talking to them each day and telling 
them what to do; helping them in ways that were uplifting in char- 

The moral side of the school has never before been as low in the 
history of the school as under Mr. Friedman. 

He failed to assist and cooperate with !Miss Gaither in most serious, 
cases of disciphne with the girls. 

He ordered Miss Gaither to go with the girls to the gymnasium. 
She protested, saying there was no one on duty at girls' quarters; 
that it was unsafe to leave the punished girls there alone. But at his 
request she was obliged to go ; the result was that some boys got into 
girls' quarters and spent the evening with the girls. 

, whose immoral character was well known, was one 

of these girls. After all this was allowed to sing in 

public entertainments before the pupils and was taken to public places 
with the band, to Harrisburg to sing before the governor, and other 
public places, singing "Redwing" and dressing in Indian costume. 
This was done against the wish of the matron. Miss Gaither had 

requested before this that be sent home. If the 

matron's wish had been complied with in the beginning, it would 
have been better for and her associates.. 

At the pageant at Philadelphia a year ago last faU a number of 
these girls were taken for public display with a large number of boys. 
There was an excellent chaperone with them, but it was not safe for 
the girls to be out of her sight. The first downfall of one of our best 
girls occurred there. After her return to the school Amos Komah, 
one of the boys who was with her at the pageant, went to her room 
and spent the night. This was reported the next day to Miss Gaither. 

was to go to Philadelphia again to sing, but Miss Gaither said 

she should not go with her permission. Mr. Friedman was very angry, 
just furious, that she had made the report until after she had been 

to Philadelphia and returned. Both Amos Komah and • 

were sent home, each to theh own home without being compelled to 

, a returned student, came back to take telegraphy, 

but was not allowed to enter this department. They would have 
admitted her as a pupU ; she refused to be admitted as a pupil in the 
regular school course; she would not sign for anything else except 
for telegraphy. She went to town to the hotel. The people at the 
hotel asked the school to see that she was removed from there. The 
disciplinarian was requested to take her to Harrisburg. This ho did. 
Mr. Friedman refused to purchase a ticket to take her farther than 
Harrisburg. The girl said she had no money to buy a ticket to take 
her to her home. The disciplinarian gave her what change he had 
in his pocket, which was 40 cents, and told her to look up the Salva- 
tion Army headquarters for protection. So she was left unaided and 
unprotected in Harrisburg. 


The superintendent has gone to the extreme in cooperating with 
Miss Ridenour, the present matron. Sixteen or more girls have been 
expelled within the past year. Some of these girls who have been 
sent home have been unjustly treated. , who had a 

food record in the country and here was a good little girl. So far as 
know her only misbehavior was that she was impudent to the matron 
in defending her sister. Mrs. Posey, who saw the treatment of the 
child when she was expelled, said she would never forgive them for 
such treatment to the child. 

-, one of the girls who had graduated, was here taking 

the commercial course. She has made a good record and many 
friends. She was taken out of line, expelled from school, sent home 
immediately without chance for defense. The school should help 
and build up character rather than condemn these girls. 

If the superintendent had done his duty it would not have been 
necessary to have expelled these girls. 

Mr. Friedman gave Miss Gaither to understand that she had nothing 
to do with the discipline of the girls at the hospital, although at that 
time the discipline there was very lax. 

was here at the school taking training as nurse. 

After she graduated in the academic course and returned home she 
made known her condition and that Joseph Loudbear, one of the 
boys at school was the father of the child. The school did not 
compel Joseph to marry her although his conduct and record here 
had been such that no one doubted that what she said was true; 
instead he was recommended to be sent as an employee to some 
western school and he did not marry her until some Christian people 
followed the case. 

, one of our favorite Alaskan girls fell the victim of 

a football boy: Sampson Bird met her in tow.n on girls' day. The 
amusements, such as dancing and receptions, have been detrimental 
to the school as they have been carried to the extreme. 

It is useless to maintain a school like this without having a strong 
moral Christian man at the head as superintendent. Mr. Friedman 
has never had the confidence or respect of the pupils. He does not 
work in sympathy with employees. When I have gone to him about 
matters concerning myself and the school he has told me to get out; 
that he would sign my transfer. He would talk in a loud tone, 
growl, and be heard by the orderlies all over the house; try to frighten 
and bluff us by such manners. 

He posed as a friend to the Indians. At the time my third assistant, 
Mrs. Parker, resigned, October, 1913, I wrote to Mr. Friedman asking 
if I might put Ada Curtis in charge of the mending room under my 
supervision; that she was an aU-day worker in the sewing room and 
had been an employee in the West and was a nice girl and 
Jiceded the money. I was informed by the office that pupils were 
ji,ot put in charge of work. I was ordered to put Miss Searight in 
charge of the mending, leaving her class, which was more important 
work, without a teacher. This showed his lack of interest in the 

Without consulting me he sent Miss Ridenour, a stranger, to town 
to get a woman to act as assistant. He also sent her to town to 
buy 20 yards of material for dresses when we had material in stock. 


Drunkenness : I have seen many boys brought home from town 
just as drunk as they could be. Under this administration there has 
been more intemperance than ever before. 

I make these statements wiih the thought in mind that they may 
help to make conditions better for the school. 

The Chairman. It seems that there has been recently quite a 
number of cases of young lady pupils in the school who have been 
unfortunate in the worst way possible. What do you attribute 
these incidents to, and what do you think is the remedy for it ? 

Mrs. Canfield. I think the first thing we need is a father over the 
school, or somebody whom the children will trust and respect. 

The Chairman. \Yhat is the relation of the pupils in the school 
to the superintendent? 

Mrs. Canfield. As I have stated, they never have had the proper 
respect for him, and no love for him whatever. 

The Chairman. How does he treat them? What occasions that, 
in your judgment? 

ilrs. Canfield. Well, he never has talked to them, never has 
been a father over them as he should have been, and he has evaded 
the responsibility. 

The Chairman. Do you think it is due to natural temperament or 
indifference and lack of interest? 

Mrs. Canfield. I think it is just lack of interest, it has im- 
pressed me so that it is. 

The Chairman. How do Miss Ridenour and the young lady pupils 
of the school get along ? 

Mrs. Canfield. Not at all well. The girls are very unhappy under 
her. I think Miss Ridenour is a good worker, but she seems to be 
unfortunate as a mother over them. 

The Chairman. There is a general state of hostility, is there? 

Representative Stephens. What do you mean by "unfortunate" ? 

]\Irs. Canfield. She does not seem to have tact with them. I 
think she has been accustomed to a very different class of girls from 
what she has here. 

The Chairman. How about her temper and disposition? 

Mrs. Canfield. She seems not to have very good control of her 

Representative Stephens. Does she have the confidence of the 
girls in any respect ? 

^Irs. Canfield. No; not at all. I am sorry to say she has not. 

Representative Stephens. They do not consult ^\^th her about 
any of their troubles? 

Mrs. Canfield. The girls say that when they go to consult with 
her she does not see them; she is not ^^^lling to consult with. them. 

The Chairman. You sa}^ there were sixteen girls expelled in less 

Mrs. Canfield. That is just the ones that I have track of. 

The Chairman. There may be more? 

Mrs. Canfield. I do not know how many more. There may 
have been som.e sent home from the country. 

The Chairman. What are the reasons principally for these ex- 
pulsions ? 

Mrs. Canfield. They are mostl}' for immorality except three or 
four, and . 


The Chairman. What are the relations of the employees toward 
Mr. Friedman ? 

Mrs. Canfield. I think they generally feel that he is not capable. 

The Chairman. Then there is no cordiality of feeling between 
the pupils and the superintendent or the employees and the super- 
intendent ? 

Mrs. Canfield. No. 

The Chairman. The relations are stramed both as to the pupils 
and the employees ? 

Mrs. Canfield. Yes, except just a f^w employees. 

The Chairman. Is the discipline in the school improving or grow- 
ing worse ? 

Mrs. Canfield. Well, it is not any better. Things have been 
rather obstreperous the last few weeks. 

The Chairman. Explain a little bit more in detail what you mean. 
Are the pupils rensentful and rebellious or mutinous ? 

Mi's. Canfield. Yes, they seem to be rebellious, a good many of 
them. Boys have been drinking. 

The Chairman. Do you know of loyal friends of the superintend- 
ent among the young men ? Do you know who they are ? 

Mrs. Canfield. The pupils ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mrs. Canfield. No; I understood that William Garlow was. I 
do not know that he is a loyal friend, but I understand that he was 
ready to betray his fellows. 

The Chairman. Now, you have supervision of the sewing de- 

Mrs. Canfield. Yes. 

The Chairman. How many persons are engaged in that depart- 
ment ? 

Mrs. Canfield. I have three assistants. 

The Chairman. They detail girls to take instruction in that work? 

Mrs. Canfield. Yes. 

'The Chairman. How many girls are usually detailed? 

Mrs. Canfield. I have, I think, 42 in one division now, and 46 in 
another; 4() in the morning, and 42 in the evening. 

The Chairman. Do they make pretty good progress in that work? 

Mrs. Canfield. Some of them do pretty well. Of course, they 
are children, most of them. 

The Chairman. What about the clothino- that is supplied to chil- 
dren here ? Is it sufficient and comfortable ? 

Mrs. Canfield. Yes, I think so. I tliink that the clothing is satis- 
factory, as far as I know. There is great destruction of clothing here. 

The Chairman. Naturally, I suppose ? 

Mrs. Canfield. Yes. 

The Chairman. Is the clothing of the small boys sent to you to be 
repaired ? 

Mrs. Canfield. Everytliing, except their trousers and coats. They 
are not sent to us. They used to be, however, and I do not know 
why they stopped sending them. 

The Chairman. You never had any information about it? 

Mrs. Canfield. No. 



The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. You are the principal teacher at Carlisle Institute ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How many pupils are there in this school ? What 
is the average daily attendance now? 

]Mr. Whitwell. We have 816 on the roll. I have not a report on 
the average to-day. 

The Chairman. Any given day that you have it for. 

Mr. Whitwell. At the present time all except eight are in attend- 
ance, so that there are on the roll about 708. There is 160 of those 
in the country. 

The Chairman. How long have you been employed as principal 
teacher here ? 

Mr. Whitwell. About six years. 

The Chairman. What are your duties in a general way as principal 
teacher ? 

^Ir. Whitwell. Well, to outline programs for the whole school — ■ — • 

The Chairman. How many teachers are there under your super- 
vision ? 

Mr. Whitwell. There are 15. 

The Chairman. All these you refer to now give class instruction, 
do they? 

jVIr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What is the general state of the school with 
reference to academic work and progress in studies? Is it satis- 
factory to you, Mr. Whitwell ? 

Mr. Whitwell. It never has been. 

The Chairman. Do you think it is improving, or not? 

Mr. Whitwell. I have noticed an improvement, lately, due to 
the fact that I am now giving all of my time to the academic work, 
whereas for two or three years previously I was spending half of 
my time up at the office on clerical work. 

The Chairman. Do you visit the various class rooms ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; that is part of my duties. 

The Chairman. How often do you get around ? 

]Mr. Whitwell. Well, I have no stated time to visit. Now, for 
instance, this last three days we have been writing compositions on 
"citizenship," according to instructions from the Indian Ofhce. 
We had very explicit instructions, and I made a point to visit the 
rooms a little more during the wTiting of those compositions than 
I otherwise would. But, as a rule, my duties in the office and the 
demands made of me in the offfce, of course, you realize that every 
serious case of discipline comes to me, and I must be ready when 
they come. As a rule my office work keeps me from spending very 
much time in the class room. Then I have other ways of supervising 
the work of the teachers. Their work must come in daily, so I 
know what is going on in every room every day. 

The Chairman. Do many cases of discipline come to you ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Not many serious cases; quite a number of what 
I would consider — the teachers sometimes considers them serious. 

The Chairman. To what do you attribute the fact that the progress 
in class-room work is not satisfactory ? 


Mr. Whitwell. First of all, there has been considerable pressure 
put on the industiial work. One of my- own main efforts as principal 
teacher has been to correlate the academic and industrial work, 
but still the superintendent, leaning almost entirely that way himself, 
has made it a little harder. Teachers have said to me that it seems 
he cares nothing about the academic side of it. Then the athletic 
influence too — the pupils do not seem to fully realize the advantages 
they have in that line. 

The Chairman. You think undue prominence is given to athletics ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes; I do. 

The Chairman. Are pu])ils taken away from the industrial work 
and out of the classes for athletic engagements ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes; they are taken directly, but there is more 
what I might call taken indirectly. For instance, if there were not 
so many boys on the football squads — our best boys and the boys 
best able to do the work- it would not be necessary to take students 
away from their half day in school. 

The Chairman. How many boys are there on football squads, for 
instance ? 

Mr. Whitwell. It would be hard for me to say, but I have seen 
five and six teams playing at once and a number on the side lines. It 
looks like practically the whole school is over there. I do not very 
often go over there to look at it. 

The Chairman. Have they the baseball s])irit pretty well devel- 

Mr. Whitwell. There is practically no baseball. They substi- 
tuted "la crosse" for baseball. 

The Chairman. Relative to the accounts of the pupils and the 
sending of checks. "VMiat have you to say about that? 

Mr. Whitwell. At one time after Mr. Friedman first came here 
he had me sign the pu]iils' checks. I signed them for him. As you 
can see, there is a large number of checks. For instance, every town 
day, as we call it, if it is a boys' day to go to town it is boys' checks, 
and if it is the girls' day to go to town it is the girls' cliecks. It took 
quite a little of his time and he had me sign those checlss. The regu- 
lations were that they were not to draw more than one-half of their 
savings account — so much allowed each week. I kept on sending 
those checks until the time of the Pennsylvania game. Then there 
was an unusual number, more than four times as many as had been 
coming to me, and I inquired of the clerk, or made the remark, how it 
was there were so many and if all tliese were entitled to draw. He 
said, " Well, wepayno attention to tlieregulations for the Pennsylvania 
game; we allow them to overdraw. If th.ey have any money at all 
we allow them to get it." 

I studied that over and realized that that was hard on some of 
them. Of course, it was only natural they would want to go to the 
game whether they could aft'ord it or not. Then I realized it was vio- 
lating the regulations, and if I did it once I would establish a prece- 
dent, so I refused to sign them and ex])lained to- Mr. Friedman why. 
He says, "Well, that is notliing; somebody else will sign them." 

The Chairman. Is it not a fact that ])U])ils s]kmi(1 a considerable 
amount of tJieir own money, that they can ill aft'ord to s])arc, in rail- 
road fare and personal expenses attending these football games? 


Mr. Whitweli.. Not any extent, except the Pennsylvania game. 
There is a particiihir effort made then, because they cKarter a special 
car and they have to have so many in order to get the car. 

The Chairman. What special privileges are accorded the boys on 
the football squads ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Well, m the first place, they have a separate 
building. For instance, comparing the athletes witli the ofhcei-s, the 
officere have to room with the rest of the boys and take just what the 
rest of the boys take. The athletes have their own special buikling, 
specially furnished rooms, and their own training table, and they are 
looked M]) to cjuite different from an officer. An officer is nothing 
com])ared with an athlete, so much so that few boys care to be 

The Chairman. What effect does that have on the other pupils ? 

Mr. Whitwell. It naturally leads the others to think that if they 
can get into athletics there is something to gain by it. 

The Chairman. Do you know of instances of boys being put on the 
student roll, sometimes as employees, to play football ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes; I do. Bruce Groesbeck was carried on the 
roll as an employee until the football season came. He was carried 
as a student during the football season. He was put back on the 
employees' roll after the football season. 

The Chairman. Is there an agricultural department ? 

Mr. Whitwell. No, sir; there used to be. 

The Chairman. Why was it abolished ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Well, there seemed to be nobody to push that side 
of it, and it seemed as if the superintendent did not care for it. Prob- 
ably the trades were more in his mind at that time. I do not know. 

Representative Stephens. When was it abolished ? 

Mr. Whitwell. That must have been, as near as I can state, three 
or four years ago. We had an agricultural teacher and a nice depart- 
ment. The farms are over there now. 

The Chairman. You used to have a department of telegraphy and 
a department of harness making? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Why were those both abolished ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Telegraphy practically abolished itself. It did 
not have any success. It was evidently a mistake to put it in. For 
instance, we had to give up one of our schoolrooms to it and put the 
class in a less desirable room. There were never more than five or six 
boys in it. The teacher could not be there more than an hour, and 
the pupils were resting the remainder of the time. 

Representative Stephens. They still carry that in their catalogue? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes; it is in the catalogue, and the agricultural 
department, too. 

The Chairman. And harness making, too ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes; and harness-making. 

The Chairman. Do you know how the athletic fund is handled, in a 
general way ? 

Mr. Whitwell. All I know is that we outsiders only kno w that four 
of them have anything to do with it — the superintendent, the football 
coach, our athletic director, and Mr. Miller, who keeps the accounts 
and is paid something for keeping them out of the athletic money; and 
then they are audited by John W. Ray. 


The Chaieman. Are additional salaries paid Govemment employ- 
ees out of athletic funds ? 

Mr. Whitwell. It is commonly reported so; and I know that when 
Maj. Mercer was leaving here he expected to retire, and he was fighting 
to come back; and he asked me if I would be ^\illing to be assistant 
superintendent when he came back, and I said I preferred my own hne 
of work. ''Well," he said, ''you can work over there, and I will see 
you get 8500 more out of the athletic money." So, I judge from that 
and I know from questions asked me by the coach — it seems he is in 
touch with those who draw salaries out of both places. 

The Chairman. The coach occupies a Govemment building ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairmax. And receives a salary of S4,000 ? 

Mr. Whitwell. I do not know. 

The Chairman. He is not a Govemment employee? 

Mr. Whitwell. No, sir. 

Representative Stephens. What is his name? 

Mr. Whitwell. Glenn Wamer, the coach. 

The Chairman. Do you know the assistant quartermaster, Mr. 
Stewart i 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. ^Yhat are his habits with reference to drinking ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Well, from rumors here and from what I do know, 
I would consider him a man of very poor habits. 

The Chairman. What did he do that gave him that reputation ? 
Did he drink i 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes; he drank. He was found drunk on the 
premises with one of our football boys. 

The Chairman. Was he drunk on the grounds here, you say? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; he was found drunk by Mr. Dickey. 

The Chairman. With one of the football boys ( 

Mr. Whitwell. One of the football boys. 

The Chairman. What was his name i Do you remember? 

Mr. Whitwell. Gus Welch. He is not here now; he has gone 

The Chairman. Stewart is not here either, is he ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Xo. 

The Chairman. What is the state of feeling between you and the 
superintendent i 

Mr. Whitwell. It is anything but what it should be. 

The Chairman. It is not good ? 

Mr. Whitwell. It is not good. 

The Chairman. What caused that ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Well, in the first place it is a pretty long story to 
give it to you as it ought to be. 

The Chairman. Give it as briefly as you can. 

Mr. Whitwell. I doubt if there was ever any extra good feeling 
between us, although I was glad when he came here as superintendent, 
and even when others began to criticise him I stood up for him. 
When pupils wrote "the Jew" and such things on the blackboard, and 
the teacher reported it to me, I took it up before the whole student 
body, roasted them as well as I knew how, and tried to shame them. 
But, of course, he never took any great interest in academic work. 


and I am an academic man, pure and simple, and, as I have tried to 
show, I have tried to correlate the industrial work with it. 

We got along fairly well — that is, we had no serious trouble — until 
he began to run for Connnissioner of Indian Affairs, I might say. It 
seems" there had been a protest sent m against his an})ohitment as 
commissioner on the grounds that he had falsified tiie attendance 
reports here. When I first came I had nothing to do ^^-ith the at- 
tendance reports, although I had kept them at Haskell all the time I 
was there. Here it was arranged for in another way. A clerk in 
Mr. Miller's office had complete charge of it, and it did not fall to the 
academic department. So, I was somewhat surprised, when some- 
time in 1910, one of these reports, completed, was sent down to me 
to sign. I did not want to be obstmate, and while I thought it quite 
hkely there were some names on there that should not be on it I did 
not have tune to look into it. So, I simply signed the report and 
decided I would look into it before signhig another if it was sent to 

The next time it was sent again. Then I had made inquiries, and 
I asked the clerk who made it out — I said, "Are you carrying any 
names on here that are not present?'' ''Oh, yes," she said. Well, 
she was only a clerk, and not responsible for the reports, so I sent a 
note to Mr. Miller like this: '*Is there any authority for carrying 
pupils on the roll who are no longer present? If so, I would be slad 
to sign the report. If not, I can not sign it, because I have had 
experience in these things before" — or something hke that. I got 
no answer to the note. The report was signed by some other person. 
Then about a year from that time Mr. Peaire made an hivestigation 
and found a large number of students on the roll 

The Chaiem AN . How many ? 

Mr. Whitwell. If I remember right, it was pretty nearly 200, 
on the roll whose names should not have been there. I undei-stand 
that he made a very detailed report in regard to it. 

Well, that did not affect me, because I do not have anything to 
do with makmg the reports, but when Mr. Friedman was called to 
task for it he gave the making of the reports to me. 

Now, there was nothing nm-easonabte about that; the principal 
teacher does that in other schools, although up to this time the thmg 
had been plamied in an entirely different way in this school. For 
mstance. the attendance was kept by this clerk, and not only the 
attendance, but aU the data. It was a historical record, and it was 
combined with the attendance, so it was impossible to separate one 
from the other. 

I said. "I will have to take these reports over to my office." He 
said, "Xo; you can not do that, because we want to use them here." 
I protested, and saitl it would make it very hard for me to supervise 
my own work under those chcumstances. "Well," he said, "we 
have to have this thing kept right," and I told him he could keep 
it. So I commenced then to keep those records in the fuiancial 
clerk's office, the records that had been kept by a special clerk up to 
that time. Consequently, I was away from my regular work. I have 
kept those reports ever since. But about a year ago Mr. Friedman 
allowed me to have a duplicate set of cards made and keep the at- 
tendance oidy in my own office, and that is the way the acailemic 
work has improved, because I am here to look after it. 



The Chairman. Now, Mr. Whitwell, the effect of representing the 
enrollment as largely in excess of what it actually was, if I under- 
stand the matter, was to make a better showing for the school as to 
expense per pupil than it actually would be under the facts ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes; that is the idea. Every superintendent likes 
to show up a large enrollment. Then, at that time, he was running 
for commissioner 

The Chairman. In that connection, I am going to insert in the 
record a copy of the report of Mr. Peirce as supervisor, and you need 
not go into that in further detail at this time. 

(The report referred to is as follows:) 

Report of Charles F. Peirce, Supervisor. 

Carlisle, Pa., February 20, 1911. 

In comiDariug the actual attendance reports, as shown by the daily reports from 
the matron and disciplinarian, and the quarterly report for the quarter ending Decem- 
ber 31, 1910, it became evident that there were many more pupils on the attendance 
report than were actually entitled to enrollment. 

As shown by the quarterly report for the second quarter, the enrollment was 1,042 
pupils, while the records of the matron and disciplinarian showed that there were 
actually on the premises at that time 645 pupils, in addition to 211 who were on the 
outing list. This left a discrepancy of 186 pupils, 96 of whom were carried as "On 
leave" and 90 as "Runners," some of whom had been absent from the school for 
nearly three years. 

In looking into the daily records for the month of January, it was found that 90 
pupils were dropped from the rolls on the 23d of month. The cause of this action 
was not learned until I reached the Indian Office on February 17, and found that the 
same had been taken in accordance with orders from the department, as a result of an 
inspection made by Inspector McLauglilin some weeks before. Inasmuch as the 
cases, so-called "Runners," has no doubt been thoroughly investigated and reported 
upon by the inspector, I will make no further reference to them, except to say that 
the period of absence from the school in their cases exceeds that of the so-called "On 
leave" pupils. 

The following shows the exact enrollment and attendance on December 31, 1910, 
and on February 7, 1911, when the discrepancies were first noted: 

On prem- 





Dec. 31, 1910: 















After dropping 96 pupils on January 23, 1911, as ordered by the department, the 
records on February 7, 1911, showed the following: 

On prem- 


On leave. 



Feb. 7, 1911: 

















In looking into the "On leave " records, I found that many of these had been absent 
from the school for months and years, as some were dead, others married, and others 
employed in the Indian School Service. 

The names of the "On-leave" pupils, with date of departure from the school and 
number of days carried on rolls after the same, is as follows, the same having been taken 
from the daily records of the disciplinarian and matron : 



Name of pupil. 

Time of de- 

Number of 
days car- 
ried on roll. 

1. Roy Fooder 

2. Honry Sutton 

3. Wm. P. Cook 

4. Lawrence Poodry 

5. Ed. Williams 

6. Walter Robertson 

7. Harry Woodbury 

8. Jas. Lydick ". 

9. John Doyle 

10. Ned Stevenson 

11. Mitchell Moscow 

12. Howard Purse 

13. Samp.son Burd 

14. Wm. Beaudion 

15. O.scar Boyd i... 

16. Joe Cannon 

17. George Chew 

18. Jas. Crowe 

19. Judson Caby 

20. Earl De.xtate 

21. John Dond 

22. John Ginnes 

23. Michael Gordon 

24. Walter Hamilton (married) 

25. Peter Houser 

26. Abel Hopkins 

27. Leonard Jacobs 

28. Jo,seph Libby 

29. Oce Locustt 

30. Elsworth Manning 

31. Wm. M. Bull 

32. John Menhart (penitentiary) 

33. Wm. Newashe 

34. Jacob Paul w 

35. Elbert Payne 

36. Walker Peune 

37. Howard Peirce 

38. Allison Pollock (no record— several months) . 

39. Chas. M. Ross 

40. Curtis Redneck 

41. Reno Howland 

42. Chas. W. Ryan 

43. Asa Sweetcorn 

44. Hulsie Seneca 

45. Arthur Smith 

46. John White 

47. John AVeslebear 

48. Mitchel White 

49. Arline Allen 

50. Elizabeth Baird (employed at Pipestone). . . 

51. Bessie Button 

52. Esther Browning 

53. (irace Burnette 

54. Emma Clairmont 

55. Agnes Cabay 

56. Lizzie Cardish (married) 

57. Rachel Chase 

58. Olive Chisholm 

59. Mary Cox 

60. Edna Dextate 

61 . Lucy Desautel 

63. Mamie Bilstrop , 

64. Olive Gordon , 

65. Flora Jones (married) , 

66. Bctsv Johnny John... 

67. Helen M. Eagle 

68. MoUie Mantel , 

69. Fleeta Renville 

70. Germaine Renville 

71. Grace Sampson , 

72. Ida Lands 

73. Lizzie L. Eagle 

74. Eva Symonds 

75. Simpson 

76. Julia Terronce 

77. Celestinc Types 

78. Su.san Wright 

79. Romena Waggoner 

81. Rose Fleets (dead) 

May 13, 
July 4, 
Apr. 28, 
May 16, 
June 22, 
June 7, 
June 2, 
July 12, 
Dec. 1, 
May 10, 
June 30, 
Nov. 28, 
Aug. 31, 
Mar. 15, 
Jan. 9, 
Nov. 7, 
Sept. 23, 
July 12, 
Mar. 4, 
Nov. 6, 
Nov. 7, 
Apr. 15, 
Oct. 25, 
Nov. 23, 
Jan. 3, 
June 23, 
Jan. 7, 
Jan. 17, 
Aug. 5, 
Jan. 27, 
July 1, 
Nov. 28, 
Jan. 24, 
Jan. 12, 
July 22, 
June 20, 




Total . 

Dec. 1, 
Nov. 26, 
Nov. 3, 
Apr. 1, 
Nov. 28, 
June 24, 
Mar. 3, 
.Tan. 24, 
Oct. 16, 
Sept. 8, 
Dec. 19, 
June 30, 
Oct. 21, 
Nov. 17, 
May 17, 
Jan. 19, 
July 12, 
Dec. 6, 
Dec. 7, 
Feb. 4, 
Dec. 7, 
June 20, 
Nov. 25, 
Nov. 23, 
Oct. 12, 
Aug. 15, 
Apr. 8, 
Aug. 24, 
Jan. 4, 
June 23, 
July 9, 
July 27, 
Sept. 10, 
Dec. 19, 
June 23, 
Mar. 7, 
Nov. 25, 
Nov. 8, 
Sept. 1, 
Feb. 4, 





There being no record as to the departure of Allison Pollock (No. 39) tliis would show 
that 90 "On-leave" pupils have been carried on the rolls for a total of 22,071 days, or 
that the 80 pupils have been carried for an average period of 275.9 days each. As 
stated heretofore, the "Runners" had been carried for a still longer period before, 
being dropped, January 23, 1911. 

The record as to runaway pupils absent without leave on February 7, 1911, give 
the following information: 




82. Jerome Kennerly. 

83. Frank Marshall.. 

84. John Miles 

85. Clyde Redeagle... 

Dec. 27,1910 

Jan. 24,1910 

Dee. 23,1910 

Jan. 3,1911 


The above shows that the four runaway pupils absent on February 7, 1911, have 
been absent for an average period of 35.2 days. 

It appears that it has been the custom to carry the "On-leave" pupils for a time, 
in order to "keep the average attendance up to the proper figure," and tliis has been 
passed over from time to time, doubtless, until the number of days such pupils were 
absent reach such an enormous figure. 

Upon the attention of Supt. Friedman being called to this matter and he made to 
understand that average enrollment was not considered, instead of average attendance 
the 81 "On leave' ' pupils were dropped from the rolls on February Stti, so that the 
actual enrollment of the school on February 9, 1911, was as follows: 

















I would say here that the record of issues of rations from the commissary does not 
show that rations have been issued in excess of the number actually present. 

As is shown on the quarterly report for the second quarter, no less than 85 tribes 
were enrolled, coming from all parts of the United States, and one is lead to believe 
that either Carlisle has been quite active in discovering Indian tribes in Massachu- 
setts, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Virginia, Louisiana, and other States heretofore 
unexplored by representatives of the Indian School Service, or that the school has 
been remarkably well advertised. 

Believing that there were pupils in attendance who were not entitled to enroll- 
ment, an individual examination of each pupil was decided upon, and in company 
with Supervisor Peairs a careful examination of every pupil on the premises was 

This examination proved that our doubts as to eligibility of certain pupils were 
well grounded, for a number of positive ineligibles were found. A report covering 
these cases, as well as those whose homes are within reach of and who have attended 
public schools, will be made special as soon as additional data can be obtained. 

The matter of necessity for enrollment of New York Indians is also made a subject 
for special report. This individual examination of pupils also revealed the fact that 
the ages as given on the quarterly report are not correct, the report generally showing 
the age at admission from one to four years ago instead of at the present time. 

The scheme for industrial training seems to be well carried out, for time is given regu- 
larly to instruction, as well as to productive work. A copy of a letter from Superin- 
tendent Friedman to heads of all departments is herewith inclosed, and I find that 
the order is being well carried out. 

The industrial force of employees is an exceptionally strong one, and good results 
are being obtained. 

It is noted, however, that in the sewing room too much manufacturing of articles 
furnished on the annual estimate is done at the expense of instructive work. Such 
articles as canton flannel underwear, boys' wool and white shirts, are made here, 


while it other places they are secured with the annual estimate supplies, thus reliev- 
ing the sewing room of a vast fimount of unnecessary work, and giving time for the 
desired regular instruction. 

The outing system as managed here seems to be a very important faature of the 
work, and can not help but be very valuable training to the yourg Indians who are 
given the opportunity offered them. I have gone over the records of the office of 
the outing department very carefully and believe that the school is keeping in very 
close touch with pupils and patrons. It is evident that care is taken in placing the 
pupils in homes of good character; also that the character of pupils, religious affilia- 
tions, etc., are taken into consideration in all cises. Two outing agents, one for boys 
and one for girls, give their whole time to this work, being in the field nearly all of 
the time, visiting the pupils in their homes, and making df ily reports as to their con- 
dition, etc. 

At this date, February 11, 1911, there are 202 pupils "placed out," and arrangements 
are being made whereby several hundred more will "go to the country" about the 
Ist of April. 

At present 24 States and Territories are represented in the outing list, as is shown 
by the following: 

Home State of outing pupils, Feb. 11, 1911. 
New York 65 I Arizona 4 

New Mexico 15 

Michigan 15 

Oklahoma 12 

South Dakota 12 

Wisconsin 11 

Massachusetts 4 

Montana 3 

California 4 

Idaho 2 

Maine 2 

North Dakota 10 | Oregon 1 

New Jersey 1 

Minnesota 1 

Utah 1 

Alaska 1 

Kansas 1 

North Carolina 10 

Washington 9 

Louisiana 6 

Nebraska 6 

Wyoming 6 

From the foregoing it will be seen that the country from Maine to California and 
from Alaska to Louisiana is represented. 

It is also to be noted that the State of New York furnishes 65, MichiganlS, Louisiana 
6, Massachusetts 4, Maine 2. and New Jersey 1, or nearly one-half of these outing pupils, 
who are supposed to be placed out in order to be surrounded by civilizing influence, 
and it seems to me to be rather of a severe comment on these States to have it reported 
that their children are sent to the State of Pennsylvania to be civilized. I am of the 
opinion that while the outing system is getting excellent results, it is not being handled 
BO as to reach the children of the so-called "Indian country," whose homes are not in 
cities and towns or to be reached from the trolley cars therefrom. It would seem as 
if this matter should receive careful consideration, and that pupils from the far West 
or "Indian country" be given the advantages of the outing system, and that those 
enrolled from eastern cities and towns, or from eastern reservations, located in the heart 
of civilized communities, be kept at the school to carry on the work of the institution. 
Samples of correspondence with patrons as to pupils, monthly report and rules for out- 
ing system are herewith inclosed for your examination. 

Respectfully submitted. 

Chas. F. Peirce, 
Supervisor of Indian Schools. 

Department of the Interior, 

Office op Indian Affairs, 

Washington, March 27, 1911 . 
Commissioner of Indian Affairs, 

Washington, D. C. 
Sir: I respectfully call attention to certain portions of a report on the Carlisle Indian 
School recently submitted by Supervisor Charles F. Pierce. 

Under section 3, student body, the supervdsor lists 81 pupils who were carried on 
the rolls at Carlisle for periods varj'ing from a few days up to almost three years after 
their departure from the school, making a total attendance of 22,071 days, during 
which time pupils, although carried on the rolls, were not in actual attendance. I 
call attention to this matter because it seems to me of very great importance that all 


schools follow the same rule with reference to the dropping of pupils fro 1 

either when they go on leave or when they desert from the school. A circular giving 
instructions on this particular point was recently sent out from the office, and I trust 
that in the future the quarterly attendance reports which are sent to the office may 
be more carefully studied than they have been in the past, in order that the instruc- 
tions issued in the late circular may be in fact carried into effect. The quarterly 
school attendance reports ~.ive a great deal of information which has not been care- 
fully examined and used, and it seems to me that it should be made the duty of 
some particular persan to e.Kamine the quarterly school attendance reports with very 
great care. 

The supervisor also calls attention to the enrollment at Carlisle of a great many stu- 
dents whose ho'ues are in communities where there are good public schools; for 
instance, from tha State of XevV York, 214; Massachusetts, 17; Maine, 3; New Jer- 
sey, 3; Louisiana, 17; Virginia, 1; and Michigan, a large number. The fact that 
there are so many pupils enrolled at this particular school who could attend public 
schools is certainly not in har;nony with the effort that is being made to eliminate 
such children from the Indian schools and to enroll them in public schools. I feel 
very certain that there is no need whatever of the Government expending any money 
in educating Indian children from the State of Ne.v York. 

In this connection I desire to call attention to a special report submitted by Super- 
visor Pierce on school facilities for Indians in the State of New York, dated March 
14, 1911. At ray suggestion Supervisor Pierce went to New York and spent several 
days visiting and inspecting the State schools for the Indians, and his report cer- 
tainly indicates that the State of New York is providing very liberally for the educa- 
tion of its Indians. 

I recently Adsited the little band of Chittimatchie Indians of Louisiana, from which 
tribe 17 children are enrolled at Carlisle. I found that they all lived within easy 
reach of public schools. However, there is considerable opposition to their enroll- 
ment in such schools. The smaller cnildren are attending a day school conducted 
by the Catholic sisters, and are therefore quite well provided for. It is probablyjus- 
ti'fiable to enroll a few of the older children of the tribe at Carlisle, in order that they 
may have industrial training, but there should not be any of the younger children 
enrolled in any Indian school. 

An examination of the list of pupils enrolled at Carlisle, whose homes are within 
reasonable distances of the public schools, will show that there are a great many children 
who live in \dllages and towns in the various sections of the country. I am of the 
opinion that one-third of the pupils enrolled at Carlisle could have public-school 
opportunities equal to those of their white neighbors if they were debarred from 
enrollment in Indian schools. 

I desire to call attention also to the fact that the ages of pupils given in the quar- 
terly school-attendance report for the Carlisle School are, in a great majority of 
of instances, incorrect. It seems that the custom of giving the age at the time of enroll- 
ment at Carlisle has been followed, and that those ages have not been changed at all 
on the quarterly attendance report. Lender these circumstances, there are pupils 
at Carlisle who, having been there five, six, seven, or eight years, are that much 
older than shown on the attendance report. This matter certainly should be cor- 
rected at once. 

In section 5 of the report the supervisor calls attention to the fact that the pupils* 
records are not being kept at Carlisle in accordance with instructions sent out last year. 
The method now in use is such as to make it very difficult to get full information 
concerning any one student in the school, and I strongly indorse the recommendation 
of the super\T.sor that the Carlisle pupils' records should be kept in the same manner 
as they are in other schools. 

H. B. Peairs, Supervisor. 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, Mr. Peairs asked me to substantiate some 
of tliose facts. I gave an affidavit as to what I knew about the 
reports. Of course, it was given confidentially, but as soon as it 
was brought up I showed tlie whole corres])ondence and affidavit to 
Mr. Friedman to let him know I was doing nothing underhanded. 

Representative Stephens. Wlien was this report made? 

Mr. Whitwell. This report must have been made, I think it was 
in 1911; about February, 1911, if I remember. 


No.v, when Mr. Friedman found that these things had been said 
in regard to keeping the report he went into my office. I should 
say that before that Mr. Meyer told me that he had given Mr. Fried- 
man an affidavit against Mr. Peairs and I told him that I was some- 
what surprised when I saw the affidavit. Well, he said that if Mr. Fried- 
man went away from here he was not sure that he would be wanted 
around. He made some such remark as that, and I took it to mean 
that it might be well for me to watch out. I went in to see Mr. Fried- 
man, and I asked him, "You remember the time when Supervisor 
Conser visited Haskell and found seven names on the report there 
that should not have been there?" He said yes, and he said, "1 
want you to give an affidavit to that effect." I said I would be glad 
to do it. I said, ''You write me what you want and I will be 
glad to do it." Then he says, "You remember that Mr. Conser 
told Mr, Peairs how to keep those reports in the future?" I says 
"Yes," and he told me — well, he says, "You remember 3'ou went 
on keeping them just the same as you did before?" I said, "No, 
sir; Mr. Friedman, you are mistaken. T ke])t the reports, and I know 
that from that day on, from the time that Mr. Conser visited Haskell, 
those reports were kept strictly to the letter," and I said, "the 
records will prove it." "No," he said, "you know that is not so." 
I said, "I know it is so; and if that is what you want me to do, you 
have got the wrong man. I will neither lie for you nor anyone 
else." We had some words about it, and the trouble started right 
away. He said that Mr. Warner and that Mr. Meyer Jiad both 
given an affidaA^t worth having. In the meantmie I had prepared 
my affidavit. 

Representative Stephens. When did that occur ? 

Mr. Whitwell. That occurred at the time he was running for 

Representative Stephens. Last fall some time ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Last fall, I think. 

The Chairman. Wliat is the general state of discipline in the 
school, Mr. Whitwell ? 

Mr. Whitwell. It is very poor. 

The Chairman. Is it improving or growing worse ? 

Mr. Whitwell. It is growing worse. 

The Chairman. To what, in your opinion, is it due? 

Mr. Whitwell. First of all, disrespect to the superintendent. 

The Chairman. Is that general among the pupils ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Very general. 

The Chairman. Does the same condition prevail among the 
employees ? 

Mr. Whitwell. It does; perhaps not to as great an extent, but 
still it is very manifest. 

The Chairman. Have you seen or heard manifestations of dis- 
respect or discourtesy from the pupils toward the superintendent? 

Mr. Whitwell. I have heard of it. 

The Chairman. But you have not heard or seen it yourself? 

Mr. Whitwell. The only thing I have seen is, the last entertain- 
ment we had, when he was speaking to them, trying to get their ap- 
plause, they showed a determination not to give it; not a single 
clap, for instance, to things that under other circumstances would 

35601— PT 11—14 8 


have brought forth applause — talking about appropriations for the 
school, and other things. And, of course, I saw that writing on the 
blackboard, which I tried to rectify. That was years ago, as much 
as four years. 

The Chairman. Were there frequent complaints of injustice on 
the part of the superintendent toward the pupils ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Very frequentlj^. 

The Chairman. Do you know anything about the character and 
quantity of food served ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Well, the children complained a good deal. Of 
course, I have no duties in the dining room, so I never go. 

The Chairman. The complaint is quite general? 

Mr. Whitwell. The complaint is general. 

The Chairman. Wliat interest does the superintendent display in 
the schoolroom work? 

Mr. Whitwell. Practically none until my trouble commenced 
with him, and then he commenced to write me letters as to what 
should be done, and I would hke to leave the letters with you. 

The Chairman. Have you got them here? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; it will take considerable time to go 
over them, but it will show that among the charges he made was 
that I had neglected my duty, and until he undertook to reorganize 
my work it had been constantly going down. As I have already 
explained, it had been going down during the time I was working as 
clerk. Then he started to write letters to show that he was takijig 
taking care of it. He came through the school rooms, but he would 
do more harm than good. If he found quite a number of pupils in , 
one room, he would say, "Wliy don't you promote some of them?" 
and the teacher would say, "They are not ready to be promoted." 
We must have the proof that they are ready for it, and if they are 
demoted we must know that they are not able to go on. Otherwise it 
spoils the disciphne of the school. Then he said, "Demote some of 
them." That is his idea of running the school. If a room is a httle 
crowded, he will let it stay crowded rather than provide more room. 

The Chairman. Under date of April 14 this appears to be a copy 
of a letter from the superintendent to you calling for two separate 
reports relative to the enrolhiient and the attendance at Carlisle. 

Mr. Whitewell. Yes; that is the affidavit that he wished me to 
give in regard to that very thing. 

The Chairman. This appears to be a copy of your reply to that 
letter and the reports which you made. 

Mr. Whitewell. Yes, sir; that is the re])ly which he told me was 
not worth anything; that Mr. Miller and Mr. W^arner had given him 
an affidavit that was. 

The Chairman. That wiU be inserted in the record. 

(The correspondence referred to is as follows:) 

Carlisle, Pa., April 14, 1913. 
Mr. J. W. Whitwell, PnncipaZ Teacher, 

Carlisle, Pa. 
Dear Sir: The question of enrollment and attendance at Carlisle has been raised, 
and I would be pleased to have you make two separate reports to me, giving me the 
exact facts with reference thereto, in accordance with your knowledge. 

first. A statement covering your experience at Haskell in making out the quar- 
terly reports, how they were made there, and Superintendent Peairs's connection 


with the making of them, whether or no deserters and students on leave were carried, 
and whether this was done under the specific instruction of Mr. Peairs or not. 

Second. An affidavit stating at which time the making of the enrollment and 
attendance reports of the Carlisle Indian School was first placed in your hands, and 
whether or no they were ever taken out of your hands at any time from that time ta 
the present. In this connection it will be well for you to state who sent you a copy 
of the quarterly reports for a period previous to the time when you took them over^ 
by whom they were made up, and just why I told you it was unnecessary for you to 
sign the reports as requested by the clerk. Will you please say specifically whether 
I have at any time since you first began making the reports ever in any way interfered 
with your making them? Please also say whether or no you have clo.'sely followed 
the regulations and the facts in making out these reports. 
Very respectfully, 

M. Friedman, Superintendent^ 

United States Indian School, 

Carlisle, Pa., April 15, 191S. 
Supt. Friedman, 

Carlisle, Pa. 
Dear Sir: In reply to your letter of the 14th instant, stating that the question of 
enrollment and attendance at Carlisle has been raised and that j'ou would be pleased 
to have me make two separate reports to you, giving you the exact facts with reference 
thereto, in accordance with my knowledge — 

First. A statement covering my experience at Haskell in making out the quarterly 
reports, how they were made there, and Supt. Peairs's connection with the making of 
them, whether or no deserters and students in leave were carried, and whether this was- 
done under the specific instruction of Mr. Peairs or not. 

Second. An affidaAdt stating at which time the making of the enrollment and; 
attendance reports of the Carlisle Indian School was first placed in my hands, and 
whether or no they were ever taken out of my hands, at any time, from that time to 
the present; that in this connection it will be well for me to state who sent me a copy 
of the quarterly reports previous to the time when I took them over, by whom they 
were made up, and just why you told me it was unnecessary for me to sign the reports 
as requested by the clerk; also, to say specifically whether you have, at any time, 
since I first began making the reports, ever in any way, interfered with my making them 
and to say whether or no I have closely followed the regulations and the facts in making 
out these reports — I submit the following as the facts in each case. 
Very respectfully, 

John Whitwell, 

Principal Teacher. 

United States Indian School, 
Carlisle, Pa., April 15, 1913. 
"To Supt. Friedman: Reports with reference to correspondence of April 14, 1913." 

First. I kept the attendance reports during the four years I was employed as prin- 
cipal teacher at Haskell Institute, under H. B. Peairs, superintendent. As this time 
was my first experience in a nonreeervation school, I simply followed the instructions 
of the superintendent until such time as I had positive instructions from higher 
authority. At the end of each quarter a list of names of students no longer present 
was sent to Superintendent Peairs. He indicated those to be dropped by placing 
the letter D after their names. Some were not dropped, and when Supervisor Conser 
called my attention to this, I showed him the lists of names as submitted to Superin- 
tendent Peairs at the end of each quarter, and also showed him that I had complied 
Btrictlj' with Superintendent Peairs's instructions as to who should be dropped. 
Supervisor Conser then gave specific instructions as to how the report should be kept, 
60 that during the remainder of my stay at Haskell I kept the reports strictly in 
accordance ^\^th these instructions. 

As I have already indicated, while acting under the superintendent's instructions, 
several students, some of whom were deserters, were carried on the rolls as present 
several months after they had left the Institute. 
Very respectfully, 

John Whitwell, 

Principal Teacher^ 


[To Supt. Friedman: Second report with reference to correspondence of April 14, 1913.] 

United States Indian School, 

Carlisle, Pa., April 15, 191S. 
To Supt. Friedman: Reports with reference to correspondeiice of April 14, 1913. " 

Second. In regard to your request for affidavit relating to my experience with at- 
tendance reports at Carlisle, I find much of the information called for is already given 
in affidavit furnished by me to Supervisor Peairs in compliance -ftith his request of 
March 19 on this same subject. 

To make this affidavit clearer and to give the extra information required, I will call 
attention to the fact as then stated; that it was on July 26, 1911, that the enroll- 
ment and attendance reports at Carlisle were first placed in my hands and that I have 
made or supervised the making of all reports since that time. I m\\ add, that while 
circumstances have made ttiis a very trying duty, I have no charges to make as to 
interferences on your part, and the reports have been made strictlj- in line with the 

As to who sent me a copy of the quarterly reports for a period previous to the time 
when I took them over, by whom they were made up, and just why you told me it was 
unnecessary for me to sign the reports as requested by the clerk, the fact as already 
stated in my affidavit to Supervisor Peairs that, 'It was sometime in 1910 before I 
even saw one of these reports, that they were sent to me for signature, without any 
explanation, and that at that time I knew absolutely nothing as to how they were 
made up, ' makes it impossible for me to give a conclusive answer further than to add 
that I knew the reports were being made where they had always been made, viz., 
in the office of the financial clerk, and that Miss Reichel, an assistant in this office, 
brought the reports to me. 
Very respectfully, 

John Whitwell, 

Frincipal Teacher. 

Representative Stephens. How many names did they pad the 
rolls -v^dth ? 

Mr. Whitwell. About 200, as well as I can remember. 

The Chairman. There is a statement in the affidavit. I find here 
among the letters you have submitted what purports to bo a copy 
of a letter from Supt. Friedman to you as principal teacher, October 
14, 1913, referring to charges against you for an abusive and insub- 
ordinate attack upon Supt. Friedman on the afternoon of October 
7 in his office, by calling him a " du'ty skunk. " Was that the occasion 
you told about ? 

]Mr. Whitwell. No, sir; this was after that. That was between 
both of us. There was a want of cordiality at least between us up to 
the time this happened, and he was doing everything from that time 
on to make me work hard and discount what I was domg. You will 
be able to tell from the letters what provocation led up to that. 

The Chairman. Did you reply to that letter? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Under date of October 15, the following day, you 
wrote the Commissioner of Indian Affau's what appears to be a 
communication mclosmg 

Mr. Whitv/ell (interrupting). I would like to say there that I 
first of all wi'ote to the Supervisor of Indian Schools. I realized 
that I had done somethmg I should not have done, and I wrote a full 
explanation admittmg what I had done and telling iiim what liad led 
up to it, and I expected and requested him to place it b(^fo]-e the com- 
missioner. But that was not done, and nothing was done about it 
until the superintendent filed his charges. Then I sent both my let- 
ters to Supervisor Peairs and another one to the Commissioner in 
regard to the charges. They were both filed at the same time. 

The Chairman. What is the copy that I hand joii ? 


Mr. Whitwell. This is a copy of the reply to the charges men- 
tioned; also the letter of Supervisor Peairs, which I wish to inclose 
with the others. 

(The letters, etc., referred to are as follows:) 

Indian School, 
Carlisle, Pa., October U, 191S. 
Mr. Joan Whitwell, Principal Teacher: 

lu a letter to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs you are charged with making an 
unwarranted, abusive, and insubordinate attack on the superintendent on the after- 
noon of October 7 in his office and calling him "a dirty skunk." 

It also charged that your work has not been satisfactory or up to the standard; that 
you have beeri derelict in your duty; that you have not visited the classrooms, as you 
should, and given instruction to the students or properly observed the work of 'the 
teachers; and that, until I undertook to reorganize your work during the past summer, 
it was constantly growing worse instead of better. 

You will be given three days to prepare such statement and give answer in such way 
to the charges above mentioned as you desire. 
Very respectfully, 

M. Friedman, 

Indian School, 
Carlisle, Pa., October 15, 1913. 
Commissioner op Indian Affairs, 

Washington, D, C. 
Dear Sir: Doubting the legality of the form of the charges as presented to me by 
Supt. Friedman and knowing from experience his ability to distort the truth, I am 
sending under separate cover this copy of letter sent through the superintendent, with 
the superintendent's letters pre\T.ously mentioned; also a copy of the Arrow of Septem- 
ber 5, 1913, the sample outlines mentioned, and copies of letters ^vritten by Mr. Stauffer 
and Mrs. Lovewell, as well as the program and songs in question. 
Very respectfully, 

John Whitwell, 
Principal Teacher. 

Indian Schooi, 
Carlisle, Pfi., October 15, 1913. 
Commissioner of Indian Affairs, 

Washington, D, C. 
Dear Sir: Please find inclosed a letter from Supt. Friedman which (unless the 
regulations have been changed) seems to me a new procedure in such cases. How- 
ever, as there is nothing in the letter which can not be explained, and as delay would 
be detrimental to the best interest of all concerned, I proceed with the explanations: 

I. I am charged with having made an unwarranted, abusive, and insubordinate 
attack on the superintendent on the afternoon of October 7 in his oflice, and calling 
him "a dirty skunk." 

Answer. I respectfully submit the inclosed letter addressed to the supervisor of 
Indian schools, as e^ddence in this matter, also the additional evidence beariag on 
the matter which is here given in my answers to the other charges. 

II. "It is also charged that your work has not been satisfactory or up to the 

Answer. The charge should have stated which one of these is meant, or if all are 
meant, viz: 

(a) My regular work as principal teacher. 

(6) My work in the financial clerk's office, of keeping the students' record cards. 
(c) The different details to which I have been assigned. 

Because of their far-reaching effect I will take up the second and third of these 

(b) WTien Supt. Friedman instructed me in July, 1911, to do the work in the finan- 
cial clerk's office, formerly done by a separate clerk, viz, that of keeping the students' 
record cards and attendance reports — I protested but said I could do this if allowed 
to have the cards and books at my office. After consultation with the clerks the 
superintendent decided the cards and attendance book could not be moved from the 


financial clerk's office. This meant that from that time on at least one-half of my time 
had to be spent in the financial clerk's office away from my regular work. 

The affidavit which I gave to Supervisor Peairs regarding attendance reports at 
Carlisle, and which I showed to Snpt. Friedman, contained another protest as to the 
trying circumstances under which I was making these reports and keeping these 
record cards. 

On July 28, 1913, I received instructions to "transfer at once the attendance books 
and all other papers needed in connection with the work to my office" and keep 
the attendance reports there. 

I went to the superintendent's office and showed him that the Carlisle system of 
keeping attendance reports made the cards, attendance book, and reports inseparable, 
but suggested, since he had consented for me to take the book, we might get another 
set of cards, make duplicates. The superintendent agreed to this, and as soon as 
the cards reached me I called in two teachers and the librarian and we had them 
ready for use in a few days. 

Since that time, which was at the beginning of the school year, I have kept the attend- 
ance records in my own office, consequently I have been able to again attend to 
miy school duties as I used to do before the change was made in July, 1911. I wish to 
emphasize the fact that previous to July, 1911, the principal teacher had had notliing 
whatever to do with the keeping of the record cards, the attendance book, or the 
attendance reports. It was t' e circumstances under which I had to do this work 
rather than the work itself that I objected to — the reasons are self-evident. 

(c) As to the different details to which I have been assigned I wish to refer to the 

1. Before my leave had expired in 1909, the superintendent called me by telegram 
irom Jackson, Mich., to take the place of the quartermaster, when an employee on 
the grounds fully acquainted with the work was available and wilUng to fill the posi- 

I had had no experience whatever in the position, but was required to fill it even 
after school started. I simply did all that any one could have done under the cir- 

In September, 1912, just as I was getting my school into shape and without any 
previous intimation, I was given written order to be ready within a few hours to pro- 
ceed to Pine Ridge and Rosebud Reservations to escort pupils to this school, a work 
which any one of the 60 employees here could have done, as the pupils were gotten 
ready by the day-school inspectors on each reservation. 

On July 28 this year (see superintendent's letter of this date) I was detailed to large 
boys' quarters. I had just given up part of my educational leave to get back to my 
school work. 

(a) But more than this; my regular work at the school building has been seriously 
liindered. , 

1. By abolishing teachers' positions and reducing salaries; e. g., that of senior 
teacher, salary, |900; assistant normal teacher's position aboUshed; teacher of room 
No. 3, position abolished; agricultural teacher, salary first reduced, afterward position 

2. By pushing the teaching of telegraph and art at the expense of the school. One of 
the regular school rooms had to be given up for telegraphy when another room was 
available. This meant an average class of 50 pupils were forced to use a less desirable 

The room previously used for supplies and as the office of head janitor was fitted up 
ior art without any regard for the supjjlies or the janitor work. • 

Without even notifying me teachers have been detailed to all kinds of work (except 
School work) during t^ e summer months, and sometimes during the school session, 
and even after I had made arrangements for having some necessary school work done 
before teachers went on their vacation the arrangements were ignored, the teachers' 
r-egular requests for leave were ignored and teachers were ordered to take their leave 
at once. 

The instruction in gardening has been changed so that practically all it amounts 
Ito now is detailing boys and sometimes girls to do the work — the gardener makes a 
fine showing, but the instruction part has to be neglected. The Arrow of September 
5 says the garden has afforded excellect instruction. This is misleading to say the 
least. No doubt it is a good object lesson, but the instruction has been very meager. 

The musical director who has charge of teaching vocal music classes in school has 
received more recognition, both financially and otherwise, than any other teacher; 
yet despite the fact that he makes an excellent showing at commencement and other 
public occasions, his work with the classes is hardly worth mentioning, which can 
not be otherwise in the face of his many other duties; and what means more, some of 


his work is direct opposition to the kind of training which we all agree is of more 
value than aiiy other — moral training. I inclose copy of a letter written me by Mr. 
Stauffer regarding Mrs. Lovewell, and another copy of Mrs. Lovewell's reply to thia 
letter, together with a copy of the program then under question; also a copy of a song 
given at a literary meeting. 

When the superintendent has left the grounds, even if it was for weeks, he has 
neglected to give the required official notice as to who was in charge. Being the 
next in order I did the best I could under the circumstances until I saw plainly he 
did not want me to take charge. 

My best efforts and the work of many others is devoted for three months during 
each year toward making what in many ways is a false showing for commencement. 

III. "That you have been derelict in your duty." As some of the alleged dere- 
lictions follow I will simply say here that I have been true to my highest convic- 
tions, and when a question of duty presented itself I have, as already shown, tried 
to stand for right whatever the cost. Judging from what I have already said it would 
seem I would have been derelict in my duty if I had stood for all that Supt. Friedman 
has stood for. 

Then again, the unnatural details forced on me by the superintendent plainly pre- 
vented my doing my full duty to my own department. 

IV. "That you have not visited the classrooms, as you should, and given instruc- 
tion to the students or properly observed the work of the teachers." Visiting class- 
rooms: Up to the time of my detail to the financial clerk's office in July, 1911, I 
found time to visit the classrooms as often as was necessary. Since then and until 
recently I have found it extremely difficult to find time even to visit the rooms of 
new teachers. The latter I have made a point to visit whenever possible. 

The superintendent evidently forgets or does not know that each teacher prepares 
a daily program (I inclose samples); that these are sent to the principal teachers' 
office, and that the work as a whole can be much better supervised in this way than 
by trying to visit 17 different rooms with the same object in view. As to instructing 
the pupils, the work of the principal teacher here has never included teaching in the 

His work is to organize and observe the work of other teachers, wliich I have care- 
fully done. There never was a time when I could not give a detailed report as to the 
efficiency of any one of my teachers. The fact that the superintendent did not call 
for such reports did not prevent my being in a position to give them at any time. 
Going back to the charge of not visiting school rooms, I have not done as the superin- 
tendent did last night — after sending me the charges at noon he personally inter- 
viewed the teachers as to their correctness on this point. 

V. "Until I undertook to reorganize your work during the past summer it was con- 
stantly growing worse instead of better." 

During this time I have but once received oral instructions from Supt. Friedman. 
He was passing by my office and I asked him what was to be done with the Bible 
classes. After saying he intended to have a secretary to look after them as usual, 
he said, "Just saw wood." 

As to written instructions, I am forwarding under separate cover all the written 
instructions I have received from the superintendent during this period. The super- 
intendent has a copy of them. To the man who knows they speak for themselves. 

If this claim to organization of my work is based on what Mr. Stauffer did, as would 
appear from an inspired article in the Arrow with the heading "School building made 
ready," I wish to repeat what I have already said in regard to Mr. Stauffer's work in 
my office, viz, that he did more harm than good. I might have added that during my 
absence of six weeks he did not even start the work which the superintendent had 
ordered done before I left, viz, oiling the floors, although the quartermaster says he 
told him the oil was ready. 

From another inspired article in the Arrow of the same date I judge Mr. Stauffer's 
work on the calendar may be meant. 

I wish to state that the calendar manuscript practically completed on lines sug- 
gested and approved at faculty meetings at which I was present, was left by me before 
going on vacation in the hands of the printer. In fact, when the superintendent told 
me to leave my keys with Mr. Stauffer, I suggested leaving the calendar too, but he 
said no, to hand it to Mr. Brown, the printer, so that the latter could begin work on it, 
and I did so. True, several changes were made, but aside from that of study hour 
which at faculty meeting I had objected to, purely on the grounds that I understood 
the Indian Office was not in favor of it; aside from this, I repeat, the changes were 
immaterial so far as construction and organization are concerned. 

It remains to be seen whether or not the change in religious services will prove 

John Whitwell. 


The Chairman. I see what purports to be a copy of a letter fi-om 
the superintendent to you, dated July 23, 1913, relative to personal 
oversight of instruction in the class rooms. 

Mr. Whitwell. This was written in July, while I was on my vaca- 
tion, and I had not then removed the attendance records to my office, 
so that the overseeing of the classrooms had been somewhat neg- 
lected, owing to my being at the other office. 

(The letter referred to is as follows:) 

July 23, 1913. 
Mr. Whitwell: 

One of tlie paramount duties devolving on the principal teacher in connection with 
his work is the personal oversight of instruction in the classrooms. It is therefore 
directed that as much time as possible be spent by the principal teacher each day in 
visiting classrooms, so as to definitely ascertain the progress which is made by the 
students, and listening to the recitation work conducted by the teacher with a view to 
raising the standard of the academic department. From time to time the principal 
teacher himself should take a class and quiz the students with a view to ascertaining 
the practical results which have attended the instruction by the various teachers. 

Important matters needing adjustment will thus come before the personal attention 
of the principal teacher which can be discussed and properly corrected either in a 
personal interview ■nnth the teacher or at one of the teachers' meetings. The matt<3r 
18 one of the greatest importance, and as very little or no visiting of this kind has been 
done in the past, the matter should have definite attention. 
Very respectfully, 

M. Friedman, Superintendent. 

The Chairman. July 28, 1913, you were detailed to the large boys' 
quarters ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. 

(The letter referred to is as follows :) 

July 28, 1913. 
Mr. Whitwell: 
You are hereby detailed for duty at the large boys' quarters, beginning at once. 
Very respectfully, 

M. Friedman, Superintendent. 

The Chairman. What was the import of that ? 

Mr. Whitwell. I had been attending chautauqua, but the teacher 
who had been keeping the attendance records was away and I knew 
what it meant, and I gave up a part of my institute leave to hurry 
back to my own work, and I had not been back but a day or so when 
he detailed me to the large boys' quarters, although there were very 
few boys here at that time and no special need for it. 

The Chairman. There also appears to be a letter of January 28, 
1913, from Supt. Friedman to you. What is the significance of that 
communication to you? 

Mr. Whitwell. This is in regard to the change of keeping the 
attendance records at my own office instead of in the financial clerk's 
office, and he seems to be specially desirous of having them kept 
accurately, and I challenged him to show where they had ever been 
kept, since I took them, any other way than accurately. Of course, 
it IS all a matter of evidence as to the way they were kept before I 
took hold of it. I thought I had the answers to these with me. 

The Chairman. Were you charged with the condition of the class- 
rooms ? 

Mr. Whitwell. You mean in regard to janitor work, etc. ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; that is part of my duties. 


The Chairman. I see a letter of August 26, 1913, in which the super- 
intendent criticises you for the condition of the rooms. 

Mr. Whitwell. There is akeady on record a reply to this, showing 
that the only windows that were not cleaned at that time were two 
in the back part of the chapel, and as the teacher said he was doing 
the work, there was no need of doing them then; we could do them 
when we had boys to help us. And not only that, there was more 
important work for the teacher to do than cleaning such windows. 
We ought to have been getting our school work in shape. The other 
windows were just in the shape you would expect to find them after 
the summer's vacation. They had all been cleaned before the pupils 
had been dismissed. There is a reply here to this about the windows. 
It is, of course, written much better than I could remember now. 

(The letter and statement referred to are as follows:) 

August 26, 1913. 
Mr. Whitwell: 

I have gone through the rooms of the school building carefully and, while the oiling 
of the floors and the general cleaning is progressing satisfactorily, it will be necessary 
to spend quite a bit of time and labor in cleaning the windows. The windows gen- 
erally were dirty, a condition which ia not only unsanitary but obstructs the proper 
light and sunshine which should enter the schoolrooms during class recitations. 
Very respectfully, 

Moses Friedman, 


[Notes on Superintendent's letter of Aug. 26, 1913.] 

The front windows of the chapel had been washed a few days before this inspection 
was made. The windows the superintendent saw the boys washing before he wrote 
this letter, were put in new a few days before. They were gummy and needed wash- 
ing; the other windows of school rooms were in the condition anyone would expect 
to find them in, after the dusts of the summer vacation. 

The windows in the storeroom at the rear of the chapel did need cleaning, but it was 
not necessary that they be done then, when there were not pupils that could do this, 
only teachers who could have had tliis time for better use. 

The Chairman. That was not a letter to the superintendent. This 
is a correct statement ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; that is in regard to the actual conditions. 
And I would like to say that there are answers put in the evidence. 

The Chairman. Were they furnished to the superintendent ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes; they were furnished as a reply to his charges^ 
so that they are a matter of record in Washington. 

The Chairman. Do you know why Miss Gaither was transferred 
from here ? 

Mr. Whitwell. She and Mr. Friedman did not get along very 
well together. I know no other reason why she should have been 
transferred. I considered her a very capable matron. 

The Chairman. At the time of her leavmg here did you know any- 
thing about a controversy arising from the manner of keeping the 
accounts ? 

Mr. Whitwell. No, sir; I never heard that. 

The Chairman. Do you know Julia Hardin ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Who is she ? 

Mr. Whitwell. She is one of our pupils in the busmess department. 

The Chairman. Did you see her during June, 1913 ? On an oc- 
casion when she was bemg whipped ? 


Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. State the circumstances under which you saw 
her, and what her condition was. 

Mr. Whitw^ell. Shall I read this ? 

The Chairman. I have no objection. 

Mr. Whitwell. Of course, I would like to say that this was given 
from my memory, but I know that the vital parts are correct. There 
may be a word or two that is a little different. 

The Chairman. Just read it. 

Mr. Whitwell (reading) : 

I found tlie girl sitting on the floor sobbing and crying. Mr. Stanffer was standing 
near, very much excited. So was Miss Ridenour. I had learned on the way over, 
from Mrs. La Flesche, something of the trouble. I walked up to Julia and said some- 
thing like this: "Julia, you know I wouldn't advise you to do anything against your 
best interests if I knew it. Now, you have got yourself into this trouble and it is up to 
you to get yourself out of it. I couldn't tell you what is right or wrong, any better than 
what you yourself now know it, and I am not going to waste time talking to you, 
but I advise you to do as you are told, whatever that is." 

I turned to the matron and asked what they wanted her to do. The matron said 
she would have to go to the lock-up. I said, "Julia, will you go to the lock-up?" 
She said, "I will go for you, Mr. Whitwell." I knew the girl meant what she said. 
I turned to the matron and said she was ready to go, but the matron did not seem to 
realize it. I said again that she was ready to go and told Julia to rise and go with her. 
She went and that ended my connection with the case. 

The Chairman. Did you see Mr. Stauffer that evening? 

!Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; he came to the house. 

The Chairman. What conversation occurred between you ? 

Mr. Whitwell. He evidently came to explain his coimection with 
the case. He said that the girl has been very bad, or something like 
that, and I said to him, ' ' Well, I am afraid you have made a mistake 
to use corporal punishment. You ought to have had permission of 
the superintendent." He said that he had gone to Mr. Friedman 
after he found out the girl would not do what they wanted, and told 
IVIr. Friedman that there was only one way to do it and that was to 
spank her, and jVIt. Friedman said, ''Now, don't talk to me about 
spanking. If you are going to spank, all right; but don't bring me 
into it." 

I had very little to say about the case, and could not approve of it. 
He evidently was worried about it, and I could not say anything that 
would make him feel any better. He added, however, that the girl 
was ready to go when he came over, and I told him that so far as 
that was concerned, I did not claim any credit. 

The Chairman. Did you take hold of the girl ? 

Mr. Whitwell. I do not remember even touching her. 

The Chairman. Did you pull her up from the floor ? 

Mr, Whitwell. I do not remember that I pulled her up. If I 
did it was simply to help her. From what Mrs. La Flesche told me, 
I realized it was a case that the more they were punishing the girl 
the more stubborn she was becoming. I would not use corporal 
punishment under any circumstances. 

The Chairman. Did you threaten to punish her? 

Mr. Whitwell. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you tell her that she had not had enough 
punishment ? 

Mr. Whitwell. No, sir. 


The Chairman. Did you order her put in the detention room over 

Mr. Whitwell. No, sir. I did not know anything about whether 
they had a detention room. I did not know the next move. The 
girl went home. I was ignorant of the whole situation. 

The Chairman. Do you know what she was punished for? 

Air. Whitwell. I know now, yes. 

The Chairman. What was it ? 

Mr. Whitwell. For not going to the country after she had prom- 
ised to go. 

The Chairman. Did you see the board %\dth which she is said to 
have been whipped ? 

]Mi-. Whitwell. No, sir. That was all over when I went there. 

The Chairman. Do you know of pupils of the school being con- 
fined in the county jail, ^Ir. Whitwell ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How many have you known of in the last year 
or two ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Something Uke seven or eight. 

The Chairman. For what offenses, if you kiiow ? 

Mr. Whitwell. One while I was helping over at the large boys' 
quarters — I assisted them. In fact, under Mr. Friedman's orders, I 
took a boy down and had him arrested. I went down and really 
acted the part of the complainant. 

The Chairman. What did you charge him with ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Steahng pies out of the bakery. They make pies 
every Saturday afternoon. 

T&e Chairman. How long was he confined for that? 

Mr. Whitwell. 1 think for 30 dajrs, as near as I can remember. 

The Chairman. Did you charge him with petty larceny or grand 
larceny ? 

Mr. Whitwell. I tliink it was pett}^ larceny. 

The Chairman. Did you think that punishment as commensu- 
rate "^^dth the degree of the offense — to take a schoolboy charged 
with steahng something to eat ? It looks to me almost like the case 
of Jean Valjean again. A case where you knew, and it was generally 
known, that the pupils were not getting enough to eat, to take one of 
the boys down and put him in jail for 30 days. 

Mr. Whitwell. Of course, they threw the plates away, but that 
was all secondary. 

The Chairman. How much pie did they steal ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Oh, quite a number of them. 

The Chairman. Were there a number of boys in it ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes; they took the pies down near the lake here 
and told the boys where the pies were. I think the poor girls had to 
go without the next day. 

Representative Carter. You have been to a boarding school, 
haven't you ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; I have been in aU kinds. 

Representative Carter. Did you ever take part in any such 
transaction as that? 

Mr. Whitwell. No, sir. 

Representative Carter. Never stole a pie ? 


The Chairman. As a matter of fact, those offenses are quite com- 
mon in all boarding schools ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Especially where the food is inadequate or un- 
wholesome and general complaints exist. Don't you think that a 
case of that sort could have been handled and should have been 
handled with the discipline that prevails in the school rather than 
appeal to the criminal authorities of the county? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; there were those two things I thought of 
at the time; that it showed our weak disciphne in the first place, in 
not being able to handle a thing like that ourselves; and again, that 
our grounds were not being policed right. The judge himself asked 
why the boys could do that. 

Representative Carter. Do you have a night watch? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, but only an Indian boy. For all I know, he 
might have helped. 

Representative Carter. You were acting under orders, I believe, 
of the superintendent? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; the superintendent gave me orders. 

Representative Carter. Were the orders written, or merely 
verbal ? 

Mr. Whitwell. I do not remember. 

Representative Carter. Will you look and see if you have any 
written instructions concerning that, and bring them back ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. Why was this work put on you? 

Mr. Whitwell. You will notice that at that time I was detailed 
to the large boys' quarters. 

Representative Carter. Was the counsel or advice of the dis- 
ciplinarian sought or obtained in the matter — what was that boy's 

Mr. Whitwell. I could find out. 

Representative Carter. Did you visit the boy while he was in 

Mr. Whitwell. No. 

Representative Carter. Did Superintendent Friedman? 

Mr. Whitwell. I do not think he did; I do not think anyone did. 
I know I told the prosecuting attorney — he said there was a nominal 
fine, as I understood. There had to be a nominal fine, and I told liim 
that probably the boy would not have it, and if he would let me know 
I would pay it. Then I inquired when the time was out of the disci- 
plinarian, and he said they were going to let the boy go home. 

Representative Carter. So they kept him in jail 30 days and then 
fired him for stealing pies? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. What do they do with the drunks and 
the boys who enter the rooms of the girls and debauch them? 

Mr. Whitwell. I have heard mentioned the case of Gus Welch. 

Representative Carter. He is a football man? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. Do you know about the four boys who 
during the last year entered the girls' building and met some girls in 
a vacant room, and stayed there a long time? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. 


Representative Carter. What was done with those boys? 

Mr. Whitwell. They were put in the guardhouse. 

Representative Carter. They were not taken to the county jail 
and confined for debauching tliose girls? 

Mr. Whitwell. No, sir. Those boys evidently had not been pun- 
ished as they ought to have been. Just day before yesterday one of 
them met a girl over at the school building — one of the same boys 
met one of the same girls in the back part of the chapel. There was 
nothing done bad that we know of, but it was because we caught on 
to it in time. 

^■The Chairman. Of course, the inherent weaknesses and character- 
istics of human nature make it impossible to prevent those things 
from occurring whenever the opportunity can be obtained and the 
disposition exists between boys and girls, but it does seem to me like 
it discloses an utter lack of sense or due proportion to confine a boy 
in the county jail for 30 days and expel him for stealing a few pies, 
and then to minimize an offense of the character mentioned in connec- 
tion with those boys who met the girls improperly and debauched 

Will you give me the name of that boy that was sent to jail for 
stealing pies? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I want to ask Mr. Friedman something about 
that. Does he admit giving you those orders ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, I think he will, because they have had 
trouble about boys stealing pies. And, as I say, they do not have 
anyone to watch the place. 

The Chairman. Do you know anything about an alleged pig 
roast by the football boys in which they are said to have taken two 
pigs and roasted them ? 

Mr. Whitwell. It is common report. 

The Chairman. What was done with them- for that vicious offense ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Nothing, so far as I have known. 

The Chairman. They were not sent to the county jail? 

Mr. Whitwell. No. 

Representative Stephens. Do you know of cases of drunkenness 
in the school by the boys, and disorderly conduct by boys, who were 
not sent home or expelled? 

Mr. Whitwell. Oh, yes; quite a number. If we sent them all 
home that have gotten drunk I am afraid we would not have many 

Representative Stephens. As I understand you, some boys 
would be sent home and others kept here ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. 

Representative Stephens. Then that constituted a gross viola- 
tion of the rights of certain boys, did it not ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; and that was what led to the feeling of 
the student body toward the superintendent. They see the injus- 
tice being done. For instance, there have been very few drunks 
sent home. 

Representatiye Stephens. It showed partiality in the extreme? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes; that is how they look on it. 

Representative Stephens. I believe you stated that the agricul- 
tural and harness departments had been abolished. Have any other 
departments been abolished? 


Mr. Whitwell. The Indian art department. 

Representative Stephens. What else? 

Mr. Whitwell. Telegraphy, harness-making, photography 

Representative Stephens. What else? 

Mr. Whitwell. That is all, I think. Mechanical drawing has 
been taken up again. 

Representative Stephens. It was abolished a while? 

Mr. Whitwell. It was abolished a while, and the mechanical 
drawing teacher put on the farm. 

Representative Stephens. What did they do with the teachers 
that were teaching all these special branches ? 

Mr. Whitwell. There was no regular employees for photography; 
the physical culture teacher used to do that. The agricultural 
department was abolished entirely, and I don't know where the 
money went. The rooms were turned into the music department. 

Representative Stephens. A conservatory instead of an agricul- 
tural department ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. 

Representative vStephens. What is in that conservatory ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Pianos and musical instruments and so on. The 
part where we raise plants, however, the gardener uses that to raise 
plants for his garden. There is now practically no instruction given, 
and the agricultural work seems to be almost ignored, so much so 
that it has seemed they treat it almost as a punishemnt to go to the 
farm. We had a potato farm, and the boys would not go there. 
We had a fine lot of chicken houses built and and an expert from 
town come here to supervise it, and they did not get the eggs, and 
they tore up the chicken houses. 

Representative Stephens. Have they abolished the raising of 
chickens ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Abolished it entirely. Of course, the boys prob- 
ably did get the eggs. 

The Chairman. Do you know about the case of — — — ■ • ■ and 
Paul Jones ? 

]\Ir. Whitwell. Yes, sir. That is the case that the boy and girl 
were sent to jail for 60 days. 

The Chairman. What for ? 

Mr. Whitwell. I understand, for immoral relations, but I do not 
know the details. 

The Chairman. Did you have anything to do with that case ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Nothing whatever. 

The Chairman. Did you ever examine the record of the case ? 

Mr. Whitwell. No, sir; I never had an opportunity^. 

The Chairman. Do you know uj^on whose complaint they were 
sent to jail? 

Mr. Whitwell. I think it was the disciplinarian. Of course, he 
does all that by the superintendent. 

Representative Carter. How many industrial departments have 
you now? You know, don't you? Suppose you just put them in 
the record there. 

Mr. Whitwell. There are about 15 here that we have yet. 

Representative Carter. Name them for the record. 

Mr. Whitwell. Baking, blacksmithing, masonry — that includes 
bricklaying, of course — carpentry, wagon making, painting, plumbing, 


and steamfitting, printing, shoemaking, tailoring, tinsmithing, laun- 
dering for the girls, sewing, and the agricultural work, which is 
hardly worth mentioning. There is no instruction. 

Representative Carter. How many teachers have you in those 
different departments ? 

Mr. Whitwell. One for each. 

Representative Carter. How many children have you in each of 
those ? 

]yir. Whitwell. It varies so much it would be very hard to tell. 
The engineer ^vill have something like 10 boys in the morning and 10 
in the afternoon. He has one of the largest details. Then the car- 
penter, he has a large detail on account of the large amount of repair 
work to be done, but the others will probably average four or five 
boys each. 

Representative vStephens. Is there any one looking after stock- 
raising ? 

All'. Whitwell. No. 

Representative Carter. Then there would not be over 75 or 100 
boys m the industrial work? 

Mr. Whitwell. No, sir. I have a record that I compiled. We are 
using a new blank now to give their grade and the trade they work. 
We have them all itemized. 

Representative Carter. In your opinion, then, the school is not 
very much of an industrial school? 

Mr. Whitwell. No, sir. The boys change too much from one 
place to another, too. 

Representative Carter. The difficulty is they do not keep the boy 
in one department long enough to learn a trade ? 

Mr. Whitwell. That is it. They won't make him stick to it. 

Representative Carter. Could they do it under the present 
discipline ? 

Mr. Whitwell. I doubt it very much. 

Representative Carter. What can you tell us about the general 
health of the students ? 

Mr. Whitwell. As a rule that does not come under my observa- 
tion, any more as we happen to see it in the schoolrooms. 

Representative Carter. But you have an opportunity to observe 
it, of course ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes. We have quite frequently sent boys and 
girls out of the schoolroom to the hospital for treatment — "adenoids 
and such cases as tJiat. They are sometimes run doAvn. 

Representative Carter. Are there any children in the school now 
afflicted with tuberculosis? 

Mr. Whitwell. T could not say positively. I laiow there was a 
little while ago. Their plan is to send them home. 

Representative Carter. The}^ send them home as soon as they 
get it ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, especially — perhaps not as soon as they 
get it, but as soon as they show the case is developed. 

Representative Carter. What do they do \nth cases of trachoma ? 

Mr. Whitwell. I have seen very httle done. Of course, it may 
be done. I know when Dr. White came back the second time he 
complained very much. 


Representative CaHter. Is there very much trachoma in this 
school ? 

Mr. Whitwell. I think there is. 

Representative Carter. Are the children who have trachoma 
segregated from the others ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Not that I know of. 

Representative Carter. What system of towels have they, and 
bath rooms ? 

Mr. Whitwell. I do not know of any special system, any more 
than to give each boy a towel once a week. 

Representative Carter. Only once a week ? 

Mr. Whitwell. Once a week, so I understand. 

Representative Carter. Is he required to keep that towel separate, 
or can any other boy use it ? 

Mr. Whitwell. No; he does not pay much attention to it. 

Representative Carter. So there is a wide opportunity for the 
spread of that disease. 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. And nothing being done to check it ? 

Mr. Whitwell. No. 

Representative Carter. In the way of sanitation I mean. 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes. One boy in particular, George Marks, is in 
the business department, and I ought to have seen it sooner. I 
noticed he had a squint, so I sent him over to be examined, and he 
had a very severe case of trachoma and had been in school right along. 

Representative Carter. What was his name ? 

Mr. Whitwell. George Marks. 

Representative Carter. Is he still here? 

Mr. Whitwell. Yes, he is still here. Of course, he is getting 
treatment now. 

Representative Carter. Is he segregated? 

Mr. Whitwell. I do not think he is; I think he goes with the other 
boys. He is in the business department. 

Representative Carter. Do you know of any others ? 

Mr. Whitwell. No; I do not know of any, but there may be a con- 
siderable number that I do not know of. Of course, that does not 
come under my special department. 

(The following correspondence was submitted by Mr. Whitwell 
and ordered to be printed in the record :) 

Department of the Interior, 

United States Indian Service, 
Principal Teachers Office, 

Carlisle, Pa., March 27, 1913. 
H. B. Peairs, 
Supervisor in charge of Indian Schools. 

Dear Sir: These are the facts regarding my experience with attendance records at 

When I reported for duty as principal teacher at Carlisle, July 1, 1907, I found, 
contrary to the usual custom in other schools, that the principal teacher had nothing 
whatever to do with the attendance reports. 

It was some time in 1910 before I even saw one of those reports. Consequently I was 
naturally somewhat surprised when without any explanation one of the quarterly re- 
ports for this year (1910) was sent to me for my signature, I at the time knowing abso- 
lutely nothing as to how it was made up. 

I signed this report, at the same time resolving in the face of past experience to in- 
vestigate a little before I signed another, if called upon to do so. Consequently when 
the report for the following quarter was sent to me for my signature and I found some 


names on the roll that should have been dropped, I immediately wrote a note to Mr. 
Miller who was then in charge of the report, asking if there was any authority for carry- 
ing such pupils on the roll. Not receiving a reply, I mentioned the matter to Super- 
intendent Friedman explaining why I did not sign the report and reminding him of 
the trouble caused at Haskell Institute when Supervisor Conser found a few names on 
the roll that should have been dropped. Mr. Friedman answered, " It is not necessary 
for you to sign them, some one else ■will." 

WTien Supervisor Pierce informed me of the condition of the attendance reports, I 
simply related in substance what I have written, to show him that I was not in a 
position to give him any definite information. 

My next experience with the reports was when I was assigned to the work of making 
out the same on July 26, 1911. I have made, or super\dsed the making, and signed all 
reports since that time. 

Very respectfully, 

John Whitwell, 

Principal Teacher. 

Department of the Interior, 
United States Indian Industrial School, 

Phoenix, Ariz., March 19, 1913. 
Mr. John Whitwell, 

Principal Teacher, Indian School, Carlisle, Pa. 

My Dear Mr. Whitwell: You will recall, no doubt, the visit that Supe^^^.so^ 
Pierce and I made to Carlisle in February, 1911. I beUeve it was when we examined 
the attendance records and found a discrepancy between the enrollment as shown by 
the quarterly attendance reports and the actual attendance, plus the actual number 
of pupils outing. 

I have not the report we made, but as nearly as I can recall there were nearly 200 
more names on the roll who were shown as having been in attendance during the full 
quarter just previous than were actually present and outing. A careful examination 
proved that many pupils who had been at their homes for periods varying from one 
or two months up to several years were still carried on the roll and were given full 
time in the attendance reports. This was brought to your attention, and you stated 
to Super\'isor Pierce and myself that because of that fact you had refused to sign the 
quarterly attendance reports, and that Superintendent Friedman told you that you 
did not have to do it for he could get some one else to sign them; that, thereafter, the 
attendance reports had been made in the superintendent's office and had been signed 
by one of the clerks, Mr. Mller, I believe it was. 

The discrepancy in the attendance reports was reported by Supervisor Pierce in 
his report to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and I was informed that pupils who 
were at their homes were dropped. No further action was taken by the office in the 
matter except to make a general ruling applying to the service at large, with refer- 
ence to dropping pupils from the rolls at the end of not to exceed 30 days after leaving 
the school. 

I always felt that the action taken by Superintendent Friedman in taking the 
attendance reports out of your hands because you would not sign reports which were 
padded and having some other employee sign them was entirely wrong, in fact, that 
it was an intentional and deliberate falsification of the school records and accounts. 

Since Superintendent Friedman has become a candidate for promotion to the office 
of Commissioner of Indian Affairs, I have made a statement that Superintendent 
Friedman wilfully falsified Ms records and accounts, the particular instance being 
the one herein mentioned, the statement which I made found its way to the Secretary 
of the Interior and finally to the Office of Indian Affairs, and I am now asked to prove 
the statement. I will do so by giving the substance of Super\-isor Pierce's report 
upon the attendance at Carlisle at the time he visited the school. 

That I may prove that part of the statement in wliich I say that padding of the 
accounts was wilfull, intentional and deliberate, I want your sworn statement with 
reference to Superintendent Friedman's taking the making of the attendance reports 
out of your hands because you were unwilling to sign them when they did not portray 
the facts, but showed a padded attendance. As nearly as I can remember, I have 
given you the substance of your conversation with Supervisor Pierce and me about 
this matter. 

I dislike to bring you into this fight, but it is absolutely necessary to do so. I hope, 
Mr. Wliitwell, that you will realize the real necessity of gi^'ing me a very carefully 
worded and full sworn statement covering the incident, because if you fail to do so, 

35601— PT 11—14 9 


it will be impossible for me to substantiate the charge made. You have the key to 
the situation. The records I can easily prove and that the attendance reports were 
padded intentionally must be proved by securing your sworn statement. I will get 
a sworn statement from Supervisor Pierce verifying my statement that you made 
such a statement to both of us, but a statement from you will make the case positive. 
You need not have any fear of the result- — you will be protected. Please prepare 
the statement and mail four copies of it to me at Lawrence, Kans.,care of Haskell 
Institute, at the earliest possible date. 

I hope you will consider this matter entirely confidential at the present time. 
Sincerely yours, 

H. B. Peairs, 
Supervisor in charge of Indimi Schools. 
(N. B. Signed by himself.) 
(N. B. Written in lead pencil : Lawrence, Kans.) 

Office of Principal Teacher, 

Carlisle Indian School, 

October 8, 1913. 
Supervisor H. B. Peairs, 

Indian Office, Washington, D. C. 
Dear Sir: Due to either malice or ignorance on the part of Supervisor Friedman, 
I am greatly hindered in successfully carrying on my work as principal teacher at the 
Carlisle Indian School, and I ask you as one fully acquainted with the facts concerning 
my work before coming here, the circumstances attending my appointment here, the 
commissioner's promise made at that time to consider favorably any request I might 
make for transfer, also your further acquaintance with some of the difficulties I have 
encountered here, to lay before the Commissioner of Indian Affairs at the earliest 
possible date the following as a part of the evidence which will go to prove the correct- 
ness of the foregoing charges and conclusions. 

1. My treatment when I reported as to conditions at athletic quarters during the 
quiet hour. I believe Supervisor Peairs and Mr. Carter can explain this. 

2. The refusal of the superintendent to support me in refusing to approve of requests 
for boys to visit girls at girl's quarters. 

3. The ignoring of my suggestion made at a meeting of all employees, that we follow 
the old rule of the school and keep boys and girls apart as much as possible. 

4. Ignoring my repeated assertion in the face of immorality that the highest test of 
the school is its result in moral training. 

6. My refusal to approve of a certain boy visiting a certain girl at the hospital at the 
request of Miss Guest. Superintendent Friedman suggested over the phone that I had 
better approve of it so that he would not have to go over my head. I still refused. 

6. My refusal to indorse the moral side of Maj. Mercer's administration. I believe 
this to have antagonized those who are now acting as the suijerintendent's tools more 
than it has the superintendent himself. The effect, however, is the same. 

7. My approval of the Y. W. C. A. secretary's plan to provide amusement during 
dancing hours for those who did not wish to dance. 

The superintendent called me into his office and in the presence of the secretary 
said that while it might be a good thing in some ways it was probably impracticable 
and wanted my opinion. He seemed disappointed when I gave it to him. 

8. My open criticism of the veracity of a letter which the superintendent proposed 
to send to Miss Richards regarding the writing of a letter to the Indian Office by John 
Jackson, a pupil. 

In the letter which he proposed to send and which he laid before the faculty for 
indorsement, he did not state the facts as they were and I told him so. 

9. My attitude of withholding indorsement or approval of matters concerning the 
school which have been exaggerated or misrepresented. There has been an unlimited 
amount of such matter. Past issues of the Red Man and Arrow will prove this. 

10. My challenging the assertion on the part of the superintendent at a faculty 
meeting to award diplomas^that there was no difference between a ])upil teacher and 
a teacher. He said the difference was one of tweedledee or tweedledum. Such 
assertions naturally discount the excellent work done in the training of pupil teachers 
in our normal department, a work which has always been a strong factor in academic 
work. As in other cases the assertion was clearly due to malice or ignorance. 

11. My affidavit regarding attendance reports at Carlisle given Supervisor H. B. 
Peairs. I wish to say this as an official duty solely. 


12. My refusal to give false evidence as to tlie keeping of the attendance reports 
at Haskell Institute. Since this time my position here has been well nigh unbearable 
and only the conviction that I had stood firm for the right has kept me from resigning. 

13. During the summer montJis the interests of the academic department haAe been 
ignored so far as the detailing of teachers is concerned except oiling floors and cleaning 
windows, other tlian this the work done by the director of music in Uie principal 
teacher's office was more harmful than otherwise: books were placed on shelves so aa 
to look nice instead of being arranged ready for use as they formerly were by teachers 
especially detailed for tliat purpose. 

14. My open criticism of the small amount of agricultural training given the students 
and the undue prominence given to art and telegraphy, both of which have proved 
failures at the expense of the academic department, while as the same time the teachers 
of these and the music department have received special mention and teachers 
who were faitlifully performing their duties almost ignored. 

1.5. Two weeks ago I commenced to follow that part of the commissioner's letter of 
instructions in "citizenship"' which suggests using the following topics at opening 
exercises: "Obedience, cleanliness, and neatness," etc. Last week I received a 
three-page letter of instructions regarding chapel exercises, which proA-ided for noth- 
ing but what had already been done, except as regards the leading of the singing, but 
which did order the elimination of recitations by pupils from the higher grades, such 
recitations being specially selected for the moral lesson they contained. As regards 
the music, the director of music is to lead in person. This he did on Monday last 
while the superintendent was present. He selected for singing one of the hymns for- 
bidden by the Indian Office regulations. 

Before reading the Scripture lesson I felt it my duty to call attention to this error, 
but this did not prevent the superintendent lauding the music and ignoring the rest 
of the program, even if it did proAade for carrying out the commissioner's instructions. 

The same letter contained such ridiculous instructions regarding dismissal that I felt 
compelled to go to the superintendent's office before the next chapel exercises (after 
spending considerable time trying to find a way out of the dilemma) and asked to 
have them withdrawn, which was granted and the dismissal was conducted in the 
usual manner. The following quotation was used at the chapel exercise: "Training 
in good habits of thinking and acting is of more value to pupils than the learning of 
all that the best text books contain concerning the whole circle of the sciences." 

16. I wish to state here that while the preceding incident and many similar ones 
have made my position here a very tr\ ing one I still had hopes that I woidd be able 
to do just what I have always done in the past and pull through without having to 
defend myself, but the following inc'ident which happened yesterday, made it impos- 
sible for me to longer remain silent and at the same time preserve a spark of manhood 
or honor. Last year at my suggestion a series of debates was carried on between oiu: 
literary societies and Carlisle High School students. Supt. Wagner of the city schools, 
Siipt. Friedman, and myself met at Supt. Friedman's residence and arranged the 
details. The principal teacher at Carlisle has always had supervision of the literary 
societies and weekly reports are sent to him by the official visitors. The debates 
passed off very satisfactorily and the results justified our planning for another series 
of debates. 

I found Supt. Wagner willing and glad to help out. 

Sometime in the forenoon of yesterday word was sent me from Mr. Meyer's office 
that Supt. ^^'agner wanted to speak with me over the phone. I found he wanted to 
speak about the debate, which is to be given on November 8. He said Mr. Stauffer 
had interviewed him, but he wanted to know when to come out to see Supt. Friedman 
and myself so as to arrange details of debate. I told him to hold the phone and I 
would try to arrange the date. I asked Supt. Friedman what date would be suitable. 
He replied he had instructed advisory members to see Supt. \\'agner and make all 

As I was then planning for another debate which is to take place Saturday evenlBg 
between members of our different societies, I asked if he had sent out instructions in 
regard to this too; he said the head of the department would do that. I asked him 
why the head of the department should not do as had been done before and attend to 
the other debate, or at lea^t be notified that his services were not needed; he made no 
direct reply. I told him I could not go on with my work under such conditions, that 
I wantecl to charge him right there with malice or ignorance so far as his attitude to- 
ward my work is concerned, and I admit I said some things I should not have said, 
amtmg them that he wa>^ a dirty skunk. He called in Miss Rice, the stenographer, 
and a.'-kcd me to re pc at what 1 had said. 1 repeated the charge in these words; turn- 
ing to Miss nice, and pointing my finger at Superintendent Friedman, I said, "You 


can say that I charge this man with being guilty of either malice or ignorance so far aa 
my work is concerned." 

Superintendent Friedman replied that he would prove I was "incompetent." 
I answered I was fully aware that he had been distorting the truth and sending 
me letters with some such purpose in \'iew, that I had kept the letters and would 
prove, when the proper time came, that it was either malice or ignorance that prompted 
the writing of them. 

I came back to my office and took charge of a meeting of the advisory members and 
presidents of the literary societies which are to debate on Saturday evening, outlined 
a program and sent it to Superintendent Friedman for approval. I have not heard 
from it and I do not know what to do for the best. 

Very respectfully, John Whitwell. 

United States Indian School, 

Carlisle, Pa., October 14, 1913. 
Mr. John Whitwell, Principal Teacher: 

In a letter to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs you are charged with making an 
unwarranted, abusive, and insubordinate attack on the superintendent on the after- 
noon of October 7th in his office and calling him "a dirty skunk." 

It is also charged that your. work has not been satisfactory or up to the standard, 
that you have been derelict in your duty, that you have not \dsited the class rooms 
as you should and given instruction to the students, or properly observed the work of 
the teachers; and that until I undertook to reorganize your work during the past 
summer, it was constantly growing worse instead of better. 

You will be given three days to prepare such statement and give answer in such 
way to the charges above mentioned as you desire. 
Yours, respectfully, 

M. Friedman, Superintendent. 

1612 State Street, Harrisburg, Pa., 

October 15, 1913. 
Bishop Darlington. 

My Dear Bishop: If you v,"ish to inquire about Mr. "\^hitwell from the teachers 
directly, write to Miss McDowell, in charge of the juniors, high-school department; 
Miss Lydia Kemp, head of the normal-training department. 

These two teachers are of long standing in the Indian Service and are as concerned 
over the deplorable conditions as Mr. AMutwell or n\o. 

I trust you can exert a strong influence and hel]i at this time. 
Very respectfully, 

Josephine W. Hart. 

[No. 8.1 

August 4, 1913. 
Mr. Whitwell: I am sending you herewith copy of a note to Mr. Washington with 
reference to the condition of the large-boys' building some days ago. I was over in 
the large-boys' quarters Sunday morning and found this condition, if anything, worse. 
He has evidently left it at the time of his resignation completely in the hands of the 

It is directed that you and Mr. Collins make a business of getting the building in 
shape. For this purpose it will be necessary to utilize a detail of boys and give the 
building a thorough cleaning up. It would be well to call the boys together and give 
them a talk about the matter, so that they keep their rooms in better condition. But 
for the ])resent, and until the disciplinarian returns, it wil! be necessary to make a 
daily round of inspection to see that these instructions are carried out. The "leaves" 
of one or two teachers expire this week, and if you can utilize their services in this 
work let me know and I shall detail them to the large-boys' (juartcM's without delay. 
Please give the matter your immediate attention. 
Very respectfully, 

Moses Friedman, 



[No. 8.] 

July 12, 1913. 
Mr. Washington, 

Acting Disciplinarian. 
Dear Sir: I have been through your building several times within the last few 
days, and I find a very filthy condition of affairs. Beds are unmade, old clothing is 
lying around, the rooms are being used for toilet purposes, the halls are littered, and 
the building generally is unkept. You are directed at once to take a detail of boys 
and clean this building up from garret to cellar,' and you will see to it hereafter, 
while you are in charge of the building, that at all times all the rooms, the halls, and 
the immediate premises, are in a neat condition, clean and sweet smelling. The 
matter is not one which can be delegated to boys. It should have your personal 

Very respectfully, 

Moses Friedman, 

Copy to !Mr. Kensler. 

[Notes on superintendent's letter of Aug. i, 191-3, made by Whitwell.] 

Tliis shows the character of the work to which I was detailed, and the way in which 
other teachers were brought into it. 

Of course there was nothing to do but use the other teachers. 

The interests of the academic department were not to be even considered. 

[No. 9.] 

August 8, 1913. 
Mr. Whitwell: I am transmitting to you herewith circular letters from the Indian 
OflBce with reference to the preparation of compositions on "Citizenship." You are 
directed to carry out the instructions given in this letter, transmitting as many as are 
necessary to the teachers in whose classrooms these compositions are to be prepared, 
and complying in every way with the directions given by the office. The composi- 
tions should be prepared on time and mailed in the way designated. This should be 
made an opportunity for the development of sound ideas and the giving of thorough 
instruction along these lines to our student?. 
Very respectfully, 

M. Friedman, Superintendent. 

[Notes on superintendent's letter of -Vug. 8. 1913, transmitting commissioner's circular regarding 


Evidently the superintendent did not read the circular. As I have already shown 
he ignored its instructions regarding using such topics as obedience, etc., for talks 
at chapel exercises, and sent instructions of his own. 

He has taken no further steps to see if this important work is being done, such as he 
has taken in many minor matters. 

[No. 10.] 

August 12, 1913. 
Mr. Whitwell: It is directed that you resume your regular activities at the school 
building, so as to have all the rooms prepared in the best possible shape, ready for 
the school year. The lower floor has been rather badly mussed up on account of 
repairs of windows in the hall, and it will be well to lock the doors leading from the 
hall to the schoolrooms on both sides. It may be necessary before putting oil on to 
have these rooms mopped. The work should be done thoroughly and just now be 
resumed so that the entire building is given a chance to dry. Miss McDowell ia 
detailed to assist in this matter. 
Very respectfully, 

M. Friedman, Superintendent. 

' " From garret to cellar" should read "from cellar to garret" (in original copy). 


[Notes on superintendont's letter of Aug. 12, 1913.] 

The superintendent evidently thinks my regular activities are as he has here 
outlined tnem. 

He told me before I left for vacation he was anxious to have the floors oiled as soon 
as possible, and Mr. Kensler procured the oil right away and notified Mr. Stauffer 
then in charge. The head janitor told me he also had advised Mr. Stauffer, as he 
knew that I would have started the work before I left if the oil had been on hand. 

[No. 11.] 

August 12, 1913. 

Mr. DiETz: During the coming school year you will be detailed to take charge of 
the mechanical-dra-wdng classes in the shop building in the room which lias been fit- 
ted up for that purpose. You should go over the matter thoroughly with Mr. ColUns 
in order to get a close insight into the work, and it is directed that you do everything 
necessary this summer to prepare yourself to carry on tliis work successfully. It 
may be the classes will not begin promptly, after the 1st of September, but they will 
be started as soon thereafter as possible. There is a good library on hand in the 
mechanical-drawing room for suggestive use. Possibly certain materials will be 
needed to carry on the work, and you will ascertain the facts with regard to this by 
consultation with Mr. Collins. Go into the work thoroughly, so that all necessary 
preparations can be made for the proper conduct and success of instruction in mechan- 
ical drawing during the first few months that we shall conduct these classes this year. 
Very respectfully, 

M. Friedmax, Superintendent. 

Copies to Mr. Kensler, Mr. Whitwell, Mr. Collins. 

(Notes on superintendent's letter to Mr. Dietz, Aug. 12, 191.3.] 

For many months Mr. Collins (for whom the superintendent claims he obtained a 
promotion to Riverside School) had been detailed by the superintendent to the farm. 

Mr. Dietz, with little or no experience in teaching mechanical drawing, is to take 
up the work that an experienced teacher was forced to give up to do farm work. 

[No. 12.] 

August 18, 1913. 

The telephone now in the principal teacher's house is not needed for official use. 
It is directed that this be removed to the teamster's house, where it will be in con- 
stant requisition. 

M. Friedman, Superintendent. 
Copies to Mr. Wliitwell, Mr. Kensler, Mr. Foulk. 

[Notes on superintendent's letter of Aug. 18, 1913.) 

Evidently the ignoring of the principal teacher, as was done in the matter of arrang- 
ing debates, was a premeditated j^lan. 

[No. 13.] 

August 19, 1913. 
Mr. Whitwell: I noticed on Monday that several of the boys working in the school 
building were preparing to oil the floor in the business department without mopping 
and giving it a thorough cleaning. Such use of the floor oil is worse than useless. As 
there was none apparently looking after these boys at the time, it is directed that 
whenever floor oiling or any cleaning of this character is done, the boys have definite 
personal supervision. You will find that best results can be obtained by working 
with the boys. 

Very respectfully, M. Friedman, Superintendent. 

[Notes on superintendent's letter of .Vug. 19, 1913.] 

I admit I was not in the school building at the time the superintendent poked his 
head in at the window and said to some boys who were getting ready to oil, ''You are 
not going to oil that floor without mopping, are you? " The boys had not so far oiled 


any floors without mopping, and at that time mops, buckets, and brooms were in the 
room, and Miss McDowell, who had attended to all the mopping, was i^reparing to 
attend to this. 

[No. 15.] 

September 3, 1913. 

Mr. Whitwell. As there seems to be a misunderstanding with reference to what is 
to be expected of the students in the business department, instructions are 

Those students who are regular students of the business department by \drtue of 
being graduates of this school, or the graduates of some other school, and have passed 
an examination here for proper entrance as regular students in the business depart- 
ment, will attend classes in that department both morning and afternoon. The princi- 
pal teacher, acting in conjunction with the business teacher, will decide whether 
certain other students who have been in the business department for a year or more 
shall be considered as regular students. All regular students of the business depart- 
ment will be expected to take care of their rooms and perform other domestic duties 
such as will not interfere with their attendance on their regular classes during the 
day and the study hour in the evening, which duties will be assigned them by the 
matron or disciplinarian. 

All students who are in the business department for part time, and are undergrad- 
uates, will be permitted to attend school only one half day, and will be detailed to 
some regular industrial department the other half day. It will be well, hereafter, 
not to extend special permission to students in the departmental grades to attend the 
business department. The business teacher will have sufficient work to take up all 
her time by handling the regular students of the business department and looking 
after the special classroom instruction, which is to be given to all the departmental 

Very respectfully, 

M. Friedman, Superintendent. 

[Notes on superintendent's letter of Sept. 3, 1913.] 

This is in a large measure explained in my comments on superintendent's letter of 
May 26, 1913. 

[No. 16.] 

September 4, 1913. 
Mr. Whitwell. It is desired that you submit a program showing hours, etc., so that 
the moral instruction mentioned in the communication herewith submitted can be 
given. The work can commence Monday morning, November 10, and continue for 
the next four days thereafter. 
Very respectfully, 

M. Friedman, Superintendent, 
(Dr. Fairchild's program attached.) 

[Notes on superintendent's letter of Sept. 4, 1913.] 

I simply submit this as showing I am still called on to do the organizing of my 
work, despite the superintendent's claim that he has undertaken such work. 

[No. 17.] 

September 9, 1913. 

Mr. Whitwell: I have been visiting the various class rooms during the study 
hour period, and several things have crept in which are inimical to the best interests 
of the study hour period. 

For instance, I note one of the class rooms spends a period of time singing before 
the study hour work begins. This is unnecessary, breaks into the study hour period, 
and interferes with the study of the other classes which do not happen to be conduct- 
ing similar work, and prevents concentration on the part of the students in these other 

In visiting the library, I noticed that the four upper or departmental grades are 
permitted to spend one evening each week in the library. It is presumed that this 


was for the purpose of real study or for reference work under the personal direction 
of the teacher in charge and of the librarian. Last evening I saw one of the classes 
there and a large number of the students were reading the comic section of the Sunday 
newspapers. This can hardly be termed studying. The students have ample time 
to read newspapers in the quarters during their spare time. If the departmental 
grades are permitted to go into the library, the librarian should have all the maga- 
zines and newspapers out of the way, and it should be insisted upon that the stu- 
dents spend this time in studying matter pertaining to their class-room work. It is di- 
rected, therefore, that these practices be stopped and you will give your personal 
attention to the matter. 

Very respectfully, M. Friedman, Superintendent. 

Respectfully forwarded to teachers for their information and guidance. 
Very respectfully, 

John Whitwell, Principal Teacher. 

[Notes on superintendent's letter of September 9, 1913.] 

Paragraph 2. Several teachers had suggested to me that five minutes might well 
be given to opening exercises. Any teacher knows the value of a few minutes spent 
this way. 

I approved their request on condition that the work of other rooms was not to be 
interfered with. It was which could only be for the first five minutes, then the 
superintendent's instructions were in line with my own. 

Paragraph 3. Since this was written the superintendent has silently indorsed these 
students being in the library at this time . The freshmen are going on Monday evening, 
the sophomores on Tuesday evening, the juniors on Wednesday evening, and the 
seniors on Thursday evening. The class in question was the freshman class (their 
teacher, who was promoted over my protest as not being "staid" enough for this 
position, although a good teacher in a lower room). There were other teachers better 
fitted for this room. This proves it. 

For a while her class had to be kept out, and no later than Monday evening last the 
librarian complained that they were not as well behaved as the others. 

[No. 18.] 

September 9, 1913. 
Mr. Whitwell: For the safety of the girls and for proper discipline it is directed 
that hereafter when the girls go to study hour that they all march in through the 
front hall and go to their various class rooms by passing through the downstairs rooms, 
and if they attend classes upstairs they shall go by way of the inside stairways. It 
has been found that boys on several occasions linger around the hat rooms on the 
outside of the porch when the girls march in. You should be on duty yourself in 
the hall to see that proper discipline is maintained . 
Very respectftdly, 

M. Friedman, Superintendent. 
Miss Ridenour. 
Mr. McKean. 
Mr. Denny. 

Respectfully forwarded to teachers for their information and guidance. 
Very respectfully, 

John Whitwell, Principal Teacher. 

[Not<is on superintendent's letter of Sept. 9, 1913, regarding safety of the girls and proper discipline.) 

Up to this time I had stood every evening outside the building, opposite the center, 
when both boys and girls marched in. I could see them enter their schoolroom 
doors. The teacher was inside, and if a boy loitered in the cloakroom that teacher 
was to blame. 

The superintendent's instructions have been carried out. Some teachers have to 
leave their rooms to stand at the head of the stairways as the girls enter. 

By discussing plans at teachers' meetings we have been able to carry out the super- 
intendent's instructions. 

When he says, "You should be on duty yourself in the hall to see that proper disci- 
pline is maintained," he evidently wants to give the impression that I had not been 
on duty and was not looking after the discipline. A boy may loiter any time, but 
there is a way to remedy it. 


There has never been any serious trouble about getting the pupils to their rooms, 
but if the teachers and I had not planned in detail at teachers' meetings as to how we 
were to assemble all the girls at one time in the hall for dismissal , as instructed by 
the superintendent, there would have been a grand mix-up; the same with the boys. 

[No. 19.] 

Septembeii 18, 1913. 
Mr. Whitwell. The lights in the office of the school building and in one or two 
of the rooms are not always turned off after study hour in the evening. You wall 
find it desirable to stay at the school building until all lights are turned off proj)erly 
and the building properly closed for the night. Experience has shown that it is 
unsafe to allow matters of this kind to boy janitors. 
Very respectfully, 

M. Friedman, Superintendent. 

[Notes on superintendent's letter of Sept. 18, 1913.] 

Last night Mr. Stauffer was using the lights in the music room after study hour. 
The head janitor was there. With all the other lights turned out, why should not he, 
with the help of of the head janitor, attend to his own lights. 

I simply mention this to show the circumstances under which some lights may be 
burning after study hour. 

[No. 20.] 

September 23, 1913. 
Mr. Whitwell: Bruce Goesback, who was dropped some months ago as a student, 
when he was taken up on the Government pay roll, was dropped from the Govern- 
ment pay roll beginning with September 1, and he is to be taken up again on the 
rolls as a student beginning with this date, the 23rd. 
Very respectfully, 

M. Friedman, Superintendent. 
Copy to Mr. McKean. 

[Notes on superintendent's letter of Sept. 23, 1913.] 

I simply send this to complete the list of letters sent to me by the superintendent 
since the time he claims to have undertaken the work of organizing my department. 

Department of the Interior, 
United States Indian School, 

Carlisle, Pa., December 12, 191.3. 
Mr. Whitwell: As per instructions from the superintendent, Bruce Goesback is 
to be dropped from the school rolls on November 30, 1913, and will be taken up as 
an employee beginning December 1, 1913. 
Very respectfully 

, Chief Clerk. 

[No. 21.] 

Carlisle, Pa., September 29, WIS. 
Superintendent Friedman: The reports from girls' quarters have been returned 
without the health of the girls being reported. The matron advises this is to be done 
at the hospital. I have no instructions to this effect. The disciplinarians have made 
their reports just as they have always been nmde, and it is evident that the hospital 
officials are not in a position to report on boys and girls they do not even see, but of 
course I simply want to know how to do it and will be guided by the instructions from 
the proper authority. 

I inclose reports showing how the matter has been handled in the past. Monthly 
letters are being held. 
Very respectfully, 

John Whitwell. 


[Notes on principal teacher's letter to Supt. Friedman, Sept. 29, 1913.] 

Anyone versed in school matters will realize what it means to have to take this 
method of "finding out" as to a procedure which I judge has been in vogue here 
ever since the school was organized. 

[No. 22.] 

September 29, 1913. 

Mr. Whitwell: WTiile the monthly school entertainment on Saturday night was a 
distinct improvement on the poor programs which have been given at times during the 
past year or two, it was not of the high order and excellence which should characterize 
a monthly program by a school of this character and size. Some of the numbers had 
distinct merit and were well rendered, while others were far below par. 

So that these programs can be further improved, and the students obtain the maxi- 
mum amount of benefit from them, you will initiate at once the following plan: One 
number should be given by the students of each class, including one from the business 
department. This will mean that etch month every teacher in the school building 
will have one number on. These numbers may be readings, recitations, orations 
current events, or of similar character. All the vocal, instrumental, and musical 
numbers will be given by the music department, under the director of music as here- 

This will provide a program of proper length. I noticed that the program on Satur- 
day evening was of hardly half an hour's duration. 

It is further directed, and the teachers will see the importance of this, that the stu- 
dents be carefully trained. 

It is not sufficient that students memorize the words of whatever piece they give. 
It is of great importance that they get the meaning of the piece, the proper intonations 
and gestures, and that they speak in a sufficiently loud tone to be heard distinctly 
in all parts of the room. In order to get these results, the students must be given their 
numbers at an earlier date, and they must be trained. 

I also desire that the band be present at earh of these monthly entertainments, 
instead of the orchestra, to occupy the stage and intersperse several selections. 

1 am sending you a sample program, which was given at Carlisle, Thursday, April 
21, 1904, which will indicate how these programs are to be prepared in the future. 
In having the program printed, 1 itot only wish the number of the room printed, but 
the name of the teacher as well. These monthly entertainments are of great import- 
ance. The program should be prepared early in the month, so that when it is given 
the last Saturday of the month, both students and teachers will have had sufficient 
time for preparation . 

These monthly meetings should provide an evening of recitation, song, and enter- 
tainment, such as will enthuse and inspire the entire student body, and nothing short 
of the best should be given. I feel very confident that the teachers at Carlisle will 
cooperate thoroughly to bring these programs to such a high state of efficiency as will 
accord with the age and advancement of the student body and the size and standing 
of the school. 

Very respectfully, 

M. Friedman, Superintendent. 

[Notes on superintendent's letter of Sept. 29, 1913.] 

Paragraph 1. The superintendent evidently forgets or does not know that the 
primary object of these entertainments is to train pupils from first grade to senior in 
the art of speaking in public, and of memorizing things worth remembering. It is 
not for show, and it was the fact that many teachers and the superintendent at the time 
thought that the programs were unnecessarily long, that led to the j^rogram's being 
shortened . 

However, I believe the old plan of having a representative speaker from each room, 
is better than the present plan of alternating each month ; but it is not to be expected 
that all numbers from all classes of pupils will always be perfect. It is more important 
that they be the right kind of numbers and afford material for character training, than 
that they should be showy and at the same time detrimental to the best interests of 
the school and the s]>eaker like the numbers Mrs. Lovewell com]ilains of in her letter 
to Mr. Stauffer, which 1 am inclosing. The fact that the superintendent lauds Mr. 
Stauffer and censures Mrs. I.ovewell, would seem to indicate his neglect to appreciate 
this side of the (juestion. 

I will be glad, however, to do all possible in the way of improving our programs. 


September 30, 1913. 

Mr. Whitwell. For the improvement of the regular chapel or assembly exercises, 
which are held in connection with the work of the academic department, and for the 
guidance of all those concerned when there is a general meeting of the student body, 
either at the time of the monthly program or when I speak to the students, or have 
outside speakers, the following instructions are issued: 

The following program will be followed for the Monday chapel exercises: 

1. A selection by the orchestra. 

2. The singing of a carefully selected song with a good theme. 

3. The reading of the Bible lesson. 

4. Repeating the Lord's prayer. 

5. A talk by the principal teacher. 

6. General instructions to students, or announcements with reference to changes, 
schedules, etc. 

7. The singing of a song. 

8. Dismissal. 

The Bible reading should be of sufficient length — ^usually a chapter — so that a 
definite lesson is conveyed, and it should be varied from week to week. These 
Bible readings should be in accordance with the regulations, as follows: 

"Sec. 13. (a) Substitute the revised version for the King James version of the Bible 
for scriptual reading, and confine these to the four Gospels and the Acts of the 

The talk indicated by the principal teacher should be at least 10 minutes long, 
carefully prepared, and on some well-defined subject which will point out some ideal 
or lesson in life, or on an educational theme, or on some current event, which should be 
discussed at length and a definite lesson drawn, either in civic sartue or leading toward 
citizenship, or for character building. 

The various student numbers by students of the upper classes will be eliminated 
in the future. 

In order to obtain the best results and to have proper direction given to the sing- 
ing, all singing at chapel exercises, or at the general assemblies of students, will be 
led personally by the director of music, you to announce the number of the song. 
These same instructions will govern at meetings where the superintendent presides. 

WTien the time comes for the dismissal of students, it will be done by the principal 
teacher, or whoever is in charge, calling on each section of the students to rise in 
turn — small boys first, large boys next, girls third — with instructions to the student 
officers to march off their troops; it is not desired, hereafter, that the students be 
stopped, or that time be marked for them by the snapping of fingers. If the officers 
do not march off their students properly, a note should be made of the fact and they 
should be instructed privately, or by gathering all the officers together and giving them 
proper instructions. As a matter of fact, whenever I have dismissed the students I 
have followed this procedure and have never had occasion to criticize the way the 
students marched out. When the superintendent is in charge of a general assembly 
he will look after the dismissal of the students himself. When the principal teacher 
is in charge of the chapel exercises or an assembly he will dismiss them in the way 
above mentioned, and after calling on the sections to rise will stand off at a distance 
and allow the captains to take charge. 

The careful carrying out of these instructions will be of material assistance, not 
only in gi/ing proper instruction and in enthusing and inspiring the student body, 
but in creating that initiative and proper conduct during assemblies as is of most 
value to students. 

Very respectfully, 

M. Friedman, Superintendent. 

[Notes on superintendent's letter of Sept. 20, 1913.) 

(See also copy of my letter of October 15, bearing on this matter.) 
In this letter he directs that recitations by pupils in the chapel exercises on Mondays 
be discontinued. While this request has been complied with, it is not a change for 
the better. These recitations were helpful not only to those who committed and 
recited them, but to those who listened to them. They were carefully selected recita- 
tions, upbuilding in character. They did require extra work on the part of both pupil 
and teacher, but it was work that was worth while. Sometimes those recitations were 
printed in the Arrow under heading as essays. 

A teacher protested to the clerk at the printing office that they were not original 
essays but recitations copied, committed and recited, the reply was, we are to print 
them as directed. 


ICommeuts on superintendent's letter of May 26, 1913, whicb was addressed to Miss Moore through Mr. 


Paragraph 2. No instruction in business training was given to departmental stu- 
dents at this time simply because to make a place for the assistant art teacher and 
assistant coach, the time formerly given to business training was given to drawing by 
special order of the superintendent. 

AVhen the assistant coach was made teacher of mechanical drawing then the business 
classes were resumed just as they had been before the drawing classes were begun. 

Paragraph 3. These rules were suggested by me at faculty meeting and are now in 
the calendar word for word just as I wrote them. 

Paragraph 4. No other student with as little preparation as James Thorpe has ever 
been admitted to the department. He was never recognized by me as a business stu- 
dent, but spent part of his time in the department. He did not enter his regular 

Reports to disciplinarian of his absence from his regular class brought no results. 
All the superintendent would say was that he should attend school all day. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. Your name is JuHa Hardin ? 

Miss Hardin. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Are you a pupil in the Carlisle School ? 

Miss Hardin. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How long have you been studying there? 

Miss Hardin. Three years next September. 

The Chairman. What class are you in ? 

Miss Hardin. Business department. 

The Chairman. What is your age ? 

Miss Hardin. Eighteen. 

The Chairman. Where are you from ? 

Miss Hardin. Shawnee, Okla. 

The Chairman. What tribe ? 

Miss Hardin. Pottawatomie. 

The Chairman. Are you full-blood ? 

Miss Hardin. One-quarter. 

The Chairman. Where did you go to school before you came to 
Carlisle ? 

Miss Hardin. Sacred Heart, Oklahoma; convent school. 

The Chairman. What have you been stydying there ? 

Miss Hardin. In the business department, taking up law, short- 
hand, typewiiting, spelling, arithmetic, and EngUsh. 

The Chairman. Who is your teacher ? 

Miss Hardin. Miss Moore. 

The Chairman. What is your relationship with her ? How do you 
get along ? 

Miss Hardin. Very well. 1 have always gotten "excellent" in my 

The Chairman. You have gotten "excellent" on all your reports? 

Miss Hardin. Every month since I have been in there. 

The Chairman. How do you get along with her with reference to 
being friendly ? 

Miss Hardin. We are all right. 

The Chairman. You have had no trouble whatever? 

Miss Hardin. No, sir. 


The Chairman. Did you desire to go into the country and work in 
somebody's home ? 

Miss Hardin. I wanted to go after I found out the girls were all 
going. I asked if I could go — the outing agent came to me and 
asked me if I wanted to go to the country. I said, *'I don't want to 
go right away." She said, "Come and sign, and we mil look up 
your country home." I said, "Wait until I get a trunk and some 
clothes." I did not want to sign right away, but she said to sign 
so she could be looking up my home in the meantime. 

The Chairman. When were you informed you had to leave to go 
to the country ? 

Miss Harding. One morning, I think it was the 2d of June. They 
told me that morning just before dinner that I was to leave the next 
morning on the early train. 

The Chairman. Who was it that told you that you must get ready 
to go to the country ? 

Miss Hardin. The report came here from the matron's office. I 
did not know who sent it, but it said, "You are to go to the country 
to-morrow morning. Come out and get your things ready." 

The Chairman. Were you ready to go then ? 

Miss Hardin. No ; I had no trunk, and not the clothes thai I wanted. 

The Chairman. Wliat did you do ? 

Miss Hardin. I came over and I saw our matron about it. She 
said she had nothing to do -with it; that I was supposed to go to the 
country. She sent me up to the office, and I went up to Mrs. La 
Flesche. Mrs. La Flesche said I was to go to the country, and if I 
did not want to go I was to see Mr. Friedman about it. So after 
dinner I ran u]) and met Mr. Friedman and asked him could I wait, 
and I stated just how it was. He said, "I have not anything to do 
with it; go to your matron." 

The Chairman. The matron sent you to ISupt. Friedman and he 
sent you back to the matron ? 

Miss Hardin. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you go back ? 

Miss Hardin. I went back to her and I told her. She said she had 
nothing to do with it; tfiat I had to go to the superintendent. So 
neither one gave a definite answer and I did not know Avhat to do. 
I went to school that afternoon; so she sent for me from scliool. I 
came over, and she told me I was to get my clothes ready and take 
them in a bundle if I did not have any trunk. 

The Chairman. What did you do ? 

Miss Hardin. I came over and I went in the sewing room — the 
clothes room, rather — and I told her that I did not want to take my 
clothes in a bundle. She told me to sit on a chair, and I sat there. 
I waited there until she got througli jiacking u]) the clothes. Finally 
Mr. Stauffer came in. He said, "Julia Hardin, you are going to the 
country." I never said anything else. Finally lie said, "Go in the 
office, there." I walked in the office, and theio was a check to sign 
for my train fare. He told me to sign the check. 1 said, "1 liave not 
got my clothes ready." He said, "Don't mind about your clothes." 
1 refused to sign the check; so he grabbed me and said, "You are 
going to sign it." So he slapped me. 

The Chairman. With his liand ^ 

Miss Hardin. With his hand. 


The Chairman. Where did ho strike you ? 

Miss Hardin. On my face. 

The Chairman. Go ahead. 

Miss Hardin. Then 1 stepped hack and he said, "You are going to 
sign this check and go to the country to-night at 5 o'clock. We are 
not going to let you wait and go with the other gii-ls." They had my 
uniform there. He said, "We are not talking about your clothes or 
anything. You are going to the country." I just sat there. He 
said, "1 am going to give you a sound thrashing, and I will stand the 
responsibility." I told him, "Well, if you had let me get ready I 
would sign it, but not until." He said, "You will go as I say. We 
won't make any arrangements for you." 

So I stayed there, and all of a sudden he jerked a board down from 
one of the window^ sills and he ]:)ushed me down on the floor, and two 
of the matrons held me ; Miss Ridenour w^as one, and I don't know who 
the other was. They })ut down the curtains, so no one could see in, 
and they locked the door. 

The Chairman. Who locked the door ? 

Miss Hardin. I think it was Miss Ridenour. 

The Chairman. Well, they held you. What did he do? 

Miss Hardin. He whipped me. 

The Chairman. Wliat with ? 

Miss Hardin. With the board off the window sill. 

The Chairman. How many times did he strike you ? 

Miss Hardin. He whipped me for at least ten minutes. 

The Chairman. Did he hurt you ? 

Miss Hardin. Yes, sir; he did. 

The Chairman. How large was the board ? 

Miss Hardin. It was one of those boards off the window; that long 
and that wide [indicating]. 

The Chairman. About three inches wide 

Miss Hardin. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And 2 or 2^ feet long? 

Miss Hardin. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Wliat position was you lying in on the floor? 

Miss Hardin. I was lying on the floor and he would keep pusliing 
me up against the wall. 

The Chairman. Were you on your back or on your face ? 

Miss Hardin. I was on my face, because I had my hand over 
m}^ head. 

The Chairman. Where did he strike you ? 

Miss Hardin. On the head, and every place. He hit me in the 
face, and every place, so I laid w^ith my hand like this so lie could not 
touch my faco. 

The Chairman. How did lie come to whip you ? Was he con- 
nected with the discipline in any way ? Did he explain to you ? 

Miss Hardin. He did not (>x])lain anything. He came in there, 
and just as soon as he said "wSigu that cli(H*k," and I m^ver signed it, 
why \\" said, "I will stand tho responsibility." And Miss Ridenour 
said, "Yes, go ahead." And h-> said, "Shall 1 whi|i h(>r soni'^ mor«^ ? " 
He said, "Well, I will stand it; I will not 1 >t her get ahead of me " 

The Chairman. Did Mr. Wliitw< 11 come ovrr there ? 

Miss Hardin. Yes. Finally Mr. Stauffer got through whii)])ing me, 
I guess he got tired. He sat down, and he said, "Are you going?" 


and I said, "Not on condition the way you aro treating me." He 
sent for Mr. Whitwell, and .Mr. Whitwell came over and he came up 
to me, and he said, ''Julia Hardin, are my eyes deceiving me, or 
what?" He came over to me and spoke in a nice way, and said, 
"Come on, Julia; come over and sign this check and go to the coimtry, 
and show them you are a lady." I said, "All right," and I signed 
the check, and I went to the country the next morning. After Mr. 
Whitwell left, Mr. Stauffer and Miss Ridenour took me to the lock-up. 
I stayed there until after supper, and I went out to get my clothes. 
When she took me back it was awful hot in there, so I asked her if I 
would apologize to her would she take me out on condition I was 
going to the country. She said, "If you apologize to us we will let 
you out," so I apologized to her. But she said, "We don't want you 
with the girls," so she put me ^own in her room that night. 

The Chairman, \^^:lere did you go in the country ? 

Miss Hardix. Merchantville, N. J.; Mr. and Mrs, Crawford. 

The Chairman. How long did you stay there ? 

Miss Hardin. Three months. 

The Chairman. Wliat did you get ? 

Miss Hardin, Six dollars a month. 

The Chairman. What did you do? 

Miss Harding. Washing, scrubbing, housecleaning, and cooking. 

The Chairman. Did you pay your railroad fare one way? 

Miss Hardin. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What were your railroad expenses? 

Miss Hardin. $3.79. 

The Chairman. How did the people with whom you were staying 
treat you? 

Miss Hardin. They treated me nice. 

The Chairman. Have you had any trouble since you came back? 

Miss Hardin. No. 

The Chairman. Have you ever had any trouble with the teachers 
or matrons before ? 

Miss Hardin. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Didn't you use some offensive language or some- 
thing to cause them to loose their temper ? 

Miss Hardin. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You got mad, of course? 

Miss Hardin. Yes, I got mad, of course. 

The Chairman. Did you come here with the expectation or inten- 
tion of being sent out into the country ? 

Miss Hardin. I knew nothing about it. 

The Chairman. Did you know how to do housework before you 
came here ? 

Miss Hardin. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you consent to study housework? 

Miss Hardin. Why, no; I know nothing about it. 

The Chairman. After you came, you say, you understood some of 
the girls were going, and you divl consent to go on, condition you 
would have an opportunity to get ready ? 

Miss Hardin. Yes, sir. But at the lime the report came for mo 
to go Miss Johnson was not hore, so I did not have any proof that I did 
intend to go on these conditions. 


The Chairman. Do you know whether Mr. Stauffer has whipped 
any other pupils or not ? 

Miss Hardin. Yes, sir; he has whipped several of his band boys 
in the guard house. 

The Chairman. Can you name some ? 

Miss Hardin. Two, and I forgot the other boys' names. 

The Chairman. He whipped them in the guard house ? 

Miss Hardin. Yes, sir; while they were in there, he and Mr. 

The Chairman. Do you know the names of the other boys ? 

Miss Hardin. Robert Nash. 

The Chairman. Is he here now? 

Miss Hardin. He is here now. The other one is away. 

The Chairman. Do you know of other girl students in the school 
who have been struck or whipped by any other person at Carlisle ? 

Miss Hardin. There is a lot of girls over there. 

The Chairman. You have named Robert Nash as one of the boys 
that were whi]:)]ied in the lock-up by Mr. Warner and Mr. Stauffer. 
Were the other boys Thomas Nicholas and Charles Bellcourt ? 

Miss Hardin. I do not know of them. 

The CmviRMAN. Did you know of Miss Ridenour and Miss Rosa 
Knight having a difference ? 

Miss Hardin. Rose Whipper — yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What do you know about that? 

Miss Hardin. One Sunday morning I was in my room — I got 
excused from church; and Rose Wliipper — I don't know whether 
she got excused or not; I won't say; but I was in my room, and I 
heard a noise in the next room, and Miss Ridenour slapped Rose. So 
Rose got out, and the first thing I saw was them scuffling right out 
in the hall. They were down on the floor with each other, so I saw 
Rose — she had her hands in Miss Ridenour's hair, and she had her 
hands around Rose's neck. They were what you would call regular 
scuffling. Miss Ridenour would say, "Let go of my hair," and Miss 
Rose would say, "Let go of my neck." Finally she called Miss 
Knight up there, and she and Miss Knight whipped Rose. 

The Chairman. How old is she ? 

Miss Hardin. Nineteen or twenty. Then they put her in the 

The Chairman. You have had no further trouble since the incident 
you have already narrated ? 

Miss Hardin. No, sir. 

Representative Carter. Miss Julia, did you ever have any trouble 
at other schools before you came here ? 

Miss Hardin. No, sir. 

Representative Carter. Were you ever corrected or chastised in 
any way at other schools ? 

Miss Hardin. I was corrected for little things I have done, but 
never for anything that was serious. 

Representative Carter. You were never chastised ? 

Miss Hardin. No, sir. 

Representative Carter. You say that you got "excellent" in 
everything ? 

Miss Hardin. I got "excellent" ever since I have been here every 
day of school. 


Representative Carter. "Excellent" in deportment? 

Miss Hardin. Yes, sir; that is what 1 mean. 

Representative Carter. You did not get "excellent" for the 
month that you had the trouble over there, did you ? 

Miss Hardin. Wh}', that was the month that — the i:d of June I 
went to the country, and I never got my report. 

Representative Carter. You have had "excellent" in deport- 
ment ever since you have been here, while you were in the school and 
while you were out in the country ? 

Miss Hardin. Yes, sir. When I went out in the country my 
country people knew all about this, and when I arrived there she 
told me, she said: "JuUa, we \nll have to go rather hard on you." I 
said, "Why is that?" She said, "Because we have a report from 
school that you had some trouble in coming out here. You are not 
allowed to go out and visit your friends or anything," 

The Chairman. Did they tell you who had sent that report out 
there ? 

Miss Hardin. Thev never said, but they knew the whole story. 
They knew all about it when they met me at the station. She said, 
"If you are not what they say you are you will have to prove it." 

The Chairman. So you went out there wath a bad reputation ? 

Miss Hardin. Yes. 

The Chairman. From the school here ? 

Miss Hardin. Yes. 

The Chairman. How did you get along with them ? 

Miss Hardin. I got along fine. She said — when Miss Johnson 
came out there ^liss Johnson tried to explain the troubles I had. 
She said, "I don't want to hear anything about it. Julia has always 
been good as long as she has been out here, and I have got a good 
opinion of her, and I don't want anyone to change it." And she 
would not listen. She called me right in and told me. Miss John- 
son started in again, and she said, "Miss Johnson, I don't want to 
know anything about it." 

The Chairman. How long had you been there when Miss Johnson 
came out and made that statement ? 

Miss Hardin. The second day. 

The Chairman. What was her object in coming out ? 

Miss Hardin. I don't know; I know nothing about it. 

Representative Stephens. What position does she hold here? 

Miss Hardin. She is outing agent. 

Representative Carter. How many times did this fellow Stauffer 
throw you down and whip you ? 

Miss Hardin. He must have thrown me down five or six times. 

Representative Carter. Are your mother and father living now, 
Miss Julia ? 

Miss Hardin. No, sir. 

Representative Carter. Both are dead ? 

Miss Hardin. Yes. 

Representative Carter. How long have they been dead ? 

Miss Hardin. My father has been dead five or six yeai-s. 

Representative Carter. Did he die before you came here ? 

Miss Hardin. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. And your mother died earlier ? 

35601— PT 11— 14 10 .' i 


Miss Hardin. Yes. 

Representative Carter. You are an orphan girl ? 

Miss Hardin. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. How did you happen to come to this 
school, Miss Julia ? 

Miss Hardin. Well, there are several of my friends, girl chums, 
that were coming, and one day they came over and asked me if I 
would not come along. My guardian said he thought it would be a 
nice trip and everything. He said we could come if we wanted to. 

Representative Carter. Wlio is your guardian ? 

Miss Hardin. Mr. Bunton, at Shawnee. 

Representative Carter. How many times did this fellow strike 
you ? Could you give us an estimate ? 

Miss Hardin. About 60 times. 

Representative Carter. Did he leave any marks on you ? 

Miss Hardin. He did when he hit me on my face. Of course, I 
had my hands over my face. 


The witness was duly sworn, by the chairman. 

Representative Carter. Mrs. Dietz, can you tell us about the 
discipline and the general conditions in the school at Carlisle ? 

Mrs. Dietz. Yes; it has been more or less neglected. It is just 
practically herding them together, and never giving them advice 
or counsel. The general outward discipline has been kept up, punish- 
ments and that sort of thing, but there is the underlying general 
neglect of advice and talkings-to they would seem to need. 

Representative Carter. Mrs. Dietz, what about the morals of the 
school and the attempt to enforce moraUty in the school ? Are the 
morals of the school good or bad ? 

Mrs. Dietz. I think it is, according to this list of names I have; 
it is pretty bad. 

Representative Carter. What is this Ust of names you have, Mrs. 
Dietz ? 

Mrs. Dietz. It is an incomplete list of names of girls that I have 
taken, given me by the girls. They are girls that have been ruined 

Representative Carter. In the school ? 

Mrs. Dietz. Yes. 

Representative Carter. How many of them are there, Mrs. Dietz? 

Mrs. Dietz. I have 28 here. 

Representative Carter. How long a period of time has that been 
running ? 

Mrs. Dietz. This covers I do not know how many years, but it is 
just since Mr. Friedman's time. We did not expect an}- names that 
came before that. 

Representative Carter. Those girls have all been ruined in the 
institution and sent back to their several homes ? 

Mrs. Dietz. And out in the country, in the outing districts, some 
of them, and here in the school. 

Re])resentative Carter. They were ruined in the outing districts 
and at the school ? 

Mrs. Dietz. Yes, sir. 


Representative Carter. About what proportion of them, Mrs. 
Dietz, were ruined in the school, and what proportion in the onting ? 

Mrs. Dietz. That I failed to put down here, but these names writ- 
ten in ink (the first 22) were the names given me by the girls who 
had been here at least four years, and these names I put dow-n after- 
wards as ones I remembered and others suggested to me — ^these 
names in pencil. I do not know which ones w^ere ruined in the out- 
ing districts. I failed to put that down. 

(The list leferred to is as follows:) 

3. - 

4. - 

5. - 

6. - 

7. - 

8. - 

9. - 

Representative Carter. Mr. Friedman knows of all this trans- 
action, does he ? 

Mrs. Dietz. Yes; and they punished the girls — put them in the 
lock-up. And in cases where it v/r.s impossible to keep them in the 
school I think they sent them home, but the pmiishment of expul- 
sion was never pronounced on them until this case 

took place. I have her name here. That occurred last year. I 
was higlil}' interested in her case; she was a relation of my mother's. 
When she was sent hero she was sent somewhat in my care, and I 
kept my eye on the girl for a couple t)f years. Then when she went 
wrong i went up to Mr. Friedman. I asked him what he was going 

to do in case, and he said he was going to have her 

sent out to the country. I said, "What good will that do, Mr. 
Friedman, because I understand the girl rebels against that, and 
she threatens to do worse. She has got to the point of recklessness." 
And Mr. Friedman said it was because she did not want to go, that 
that was punishment. He was not going to allow her to marry the 


young man, because they wanted to get married. He was one of 
the school boys here. Then he asked me what reason I had for 
taking an interest in this case. I said, ''For the reason that she is 
a cousin of my mother's, and when she was sent here she was put 
under my observation." Then he changed his attitude, and he 
asked me what suggestions I would make, and as I could not make 
any suggestions, because he was the head of the school, and I just 
waited his orders, because I wanted to know so I could send word 
out to the people. That was the first case they ever expelled. I 
suggested to him that no punishment would be great enough for a 
girl who went wrong, because she had learned better before she came 

Representative Carter. Was this boy that she wanted to marry 
the boy that had ruined her? 

Mrs. DiETz. Yes. 

Representative Carter. And Mr. Friedman prevented that, or 
tried to ? 

Mrs. DiETz. Yes; he said he would not allow them to marry, 
because that is what they wanted to do. 

Representative Carter. x\nd where is the girl now, Mrs. Dietz ? 

Mrs. DiETZ. She is home. 

Representative Carter. With her mother? 

Mrs. Dietz. Yes. He expelled her, and that was the first time 
that the sentence of expelling was pronounced on a girl that went 

Representative Carter. That was the first girl that was expelled 
for that kind of offense ? 

Mrs. Dietz. Yes. 

Representative Carter. That was done because you objected to 
him keeping her in the school? 

Mrs. Dietz. Yes. I told him that if the school rules had failed 
to keep her straight it was time she was under the care of her mother 
and grandmother, and he said: "That is what I will do; I will expel 

Representative Carter. And he then sent her home ? 

Mrs. Dietz. Yes. 

Representative Carter. You neglected to state to begin with 
what your position is. 

Mrs. Dietz. I have charge of the art department. 

Representative Carter. You are an art teacher? 

Mrs. Dietz. Yes. 

Representative Carter. You are an Indian, are you not? 

Mrs. Dietz. Yes. 

Representative Carter. What degree of blood ? 

Mrs. Dietz. I am three-fourths Indian. 

Representative Carter. What tribe? 

Mrs. Dietz. Winnebago. 

Rei)resentative Carter. Now, Mrs. Dietz, can you tell us about 
the unjust treatment of the boys and girls l)y the management here? 

Mrs. Dietz. I do not exactly know how to answer that question. 

Representative Carter. Do they treat them all alike? 

Mrs. Dietz. I hardly think so. A good many students complain 
of the treatment, and it hardly seems just to me sometimes. 


Representative Carter. Can you give us some of the instances 
of it ? 

Mrs. DiETZ. Well, an instance came under my observation just 
this fall. It was the case of a boy, William Zahn; he is a Sioux 
boy. He is about 21, and he is over age for this school, according 
to the rules, so he got special permission from the Indian Office, I 
think, to come here. He came here with the view of studying 
under Mr. Dietz, starting his career as an artist. He is rather 
ambitious in that line. He had that understanding before he came 
here, that he was to study drawing, and when he came here Mr. Fried- 
man told him he could work under him. I remember the day that 
Francis Zahn came to me and told me he was to work that day in 
my department. Mr. Friedman took back his word when he started 
in, and the boy had to go through a good deal of trials and punish- 
ments because Mr. Friedman denied that he had given the boy 

Representative Carter. Let me understand that, Mrs. Dietz. 
The boy says that when he came here he came with the understand- 
ing from Mr. Friedman that he was to study drawing and horticulture ? 

Mrs. Dietz. No, just drawing. 

Representative Carter. To study drawing. And he started to 
work under you to begin with, to prepare him for the course which 
Mr. Dietz was to give him ? 

Mrs. Dietz. Yes. 

Representative Carter. And then Mr. Friedman stopped him 
from that, did he? 

Mrs. Dietz. I don't know — he told me that he had the under- 
standing with the Indian Office — he got special permission because 
he was over age, and I do not know whether he had an understand- 
ing with Mr. Friedman or not, but he come up with that under- 
standing, and Mr. Friedman was willing to have him study his 
whole time with us. 

Representative Carter. Then when did Mr. Friedman object to 
his studying ? 

Mrs. Dietz. No; he gave him permission, but just verbal per- 
mission, and when he was started in, thinking that that verbal 
permission was enough from the superintendent, Mr. Friedman 
denied that he had ever gave him permission. 

Representative Carter. Did he ever try to to take him out of the 
drawing department ? 

Mrs. Dietz. Yes. He gave him just half a day, and I told him 
to be satisfied with that. I kept him in my department on the 
half -day work. 

Representative Carter. Then the boy got a little refractory 
because he thought he was not getting 

Mrs. Dietz. No; he has been very patient about everything. 

Representative Carter. But in spite of that, Mr. Friedman put 
little punishments on him occasionally? 

Mrs. Dietz. Yes; made it rather hard for him at times; but I 
told him to just take whatever they put on him because that was the 
only way that he could get along. 

Representative Carter. The boy is still in the school ? 

Mrs. Dietz. Yes. 


Representative Carter. Is he still being disorimiiiated against 
by Mr. Friedman now ? 

Mrs. DiETZ. Well, I don't know. The boy is very quiet, and he 
does not say very much. He has been punished for little things 

Representative Carter. That other students were not punished 

Mrs. Dietz. They said he was loafing one day, and he was pun- 
ished for that, but I did not inquire into that very deeply, because 
that only came under the disciplinarian's part of it. 

Representative Carter. Do you know of any other cases, Mrs. 
Dietz, of discrimination ? 

Mrs. Dietz. There was a boy that belonged to a cousin of mine out 
West. He made the mistake of coming here — -I mean, he meant to go 
to Hampton, and came here instead. When he got here he found 
he had had all the work that the senior class of the school was doing, 
and he wanted to go back, and Mr. Friedman told him he could go 
back if he reimbursed the fare from Wimu^bago, Nebr., to Carlisle. 
The boy's father was perfectly willing to reimburse the school for 
the travel expense of the boy, and then Mr. Friedman changed his 
mind again. He would not let the boy go, and the boy was kept on 
here doing nothing, and after a while the boy got sullen, and it 
kept on. and he was punished more or less. Finally, he went home 
just two or three weeks ago. 

Representative Carter. Wliat was his name? 

Mrs. Dietz. Francis Lamere. 

Representative Carter. You did not give us the girl's name either ? 

Mrs. Dietz. — — — ■ ■— . 

Representative Carter. That was your relative ? 

Mrs. Dietz. Yes. 

Representative Carter. Are these cases of discrimination that you 
speak of, Mrs. Dietz, the rule ? Is that a common thing among 
the children, or are these just exceptional cases? 

Mrs. Dietz. There have been a good many complaints just on 
that order, but I have not been around very much over there. The 
complaint is general. 

Representative Carter. What can you tell me, Mrs. Dietz, about 
the food that is furnished the children ? 

Mrs. Dietz. The food has been complained of a good deal. There 
were times that the students, no matter how hungry they were, 
could not eat the food that was placed before them. It was badly 
cooked, and it was rather short. 

Representative Carter. Do you go to the childrens' dining room 
at any time ? The pupils' dining room ? 

Mrs. Dietz. No, I have not been there very much. 

Representative Carter. You do not know then specifically what 
food they have to eat? 

Mrs. Dietz. No. 

Representative Carter. What can you tell us about boys drinking ? 

Mrs. Dietz. The boys have told me they can get whisky any time 
they want it. I asked them where they g(>t it, and they say they get 
it in town from negroes. 

Representative Carter. Has there b(H>n attempt, so far as you 
know to prosecute these boot-leggers, these negroes, who furnish 
whisky to the boys ? 


Mrs. DiETZ. I do not think they have done that. 

Representative Carter. But a great many of the boys have been 
placed in the city jail for getting drunk, haven't they? 

Mrs. DiETZ. I think they have, two cases that I know of. Twice, 
I think. 

Representative Carter. Mrs. Dietz, what is the attitude of the 
children toward Mr. Friedman? 

Mrs. Dietz. Why, they have no respect for him at all. 

Representative Carter. What do you attribute that to, Mrs. 

Mrs. Dietz. I tliink it is just his personal bearing toward the 

Representative Carter. Do you tliink he has any interest much 
in the children ? 

Mrs. Dietz. It does not seem to me that he has. He has not led 
them as head of the school. 

Representative Carter. Do you think he is very much interested 
in or has any respect for an Indian? 

Mrs. Dietz. I do not think so. 

Representative Carter. Is there anything more you wanted 
to say? 

Mrs. Dietz. No, sir. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. Were you a student formerly at the Carhsle 
school ? 

Mr. ScHwiEGMAN. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. For how long? 

Mr. ScHwiEGMAN. Three years. 

The Chairman. Were you dismissed from the school? 

Mr. ScHWiEGMAN. Ycs, sir. 

The Chairman. For what were you dismissed? 

Mr. ScHWiEGMAN. I Can not tell you exactly why I was expelled. 

The Chairman. Tell me what you know about it. 

Mr. Schwiegman. Well, sir, I attended school here three years. 
Then last summer I went home, and in the fall I brought some stu- 
dents back here with me, and Mr. Friedman wrote me and said I should 
bring some students with me, and he would pay my fare here and 
home again, providing I brought 12 students. So while I was home 
last summer I got 14 of tliem, but of course they were turned down, 
with the exception of 6, so I brought them along with me. Besides, 
I intended to take up sign painting this year while I am back here. 
Of course, the rest of the three years I was here I went to school half 
a day and worked at the trade the other half day. I had to quit 
school last spring on account of my eyes. They had released me 
from school, so I did not intend to go to school, but I came back with 
the intention of taking up sign painting, but after I came back the 
painters were very busy, and I could not take it up right away, Mr. 
Friedman tokl me. 

So I was detailed over to the school building, and I told Mr. Fried- 
man about this trade I wanted to take up, and he did not seem to 
look into it right away. So I stayed over at the school building, and 


worked over there for Mr. Whitwell. Finally, here just lately, he 
knew I was working down there, and he said I sliould be up to the 
shop working at my trade, so then he sent me up there, and I stayed 
up there for about three weeks. I was taldng up the trade as a sign 

One day I was called up to the office, and he told me tlien T had to 
leave the grounds. He said he did not want me around here, that I 
was loafing; he said I was just simply wasting my time here. 

The Chairman. So you were discharged ? 

Mr. ScHwiEGMAN. Ycs, sir. He never even gave me any warning 

The Chairman. Have you seen Mr. McKean since you came back 
here to testify before the commission? 

Mr. ScHwiEGMAN. Ycs; I saw him. 

The Chairman. Did he give you notice of the fact that the superin- 
tendent had ordered you from the grounds. 

Mr. ScHwiEGMAN. He did not, but the assistant disciplinarian 
told me this morning. 

The Chairman. Did you tell him that you wanted to appear before 
the joint commission ? 

Mr. Schwiegman. Yes, sir; I told him I would like to be here this 
morning, as I saw Mi\ Linnen yesterday morning. 

Representative Stephens. Who ordered you off the grounds? 

Ml'. Schwiegman. ]\Ir. Friedman. 

The Chairman. Just put this letter in the record. 

(The letter referred to is as follows:) 

February 6, 1914. 

Mr. McKean: It has been reported to me that Louis Schwiegman, a boy that was 

not permitted to remain at the school as being undesirable, was on the campus last 

evening and slept in the quarters, leaving early this morning. This is decidedly 

against the best interests of discipline here, and its repetition should not be permitted. 

Very respectfully, 

M. Friedman, 

Representative Stephens. Did some of his employees order you 
off the grounds yesterday or to-day? 

Mr. Schwiegman. No; that was the first time. The letter was read 
to me this morning. 

The Chairman. Have you been disturbed in your position by any 
representative of the school here — where are you working now ? 

Mr. Schwiegman. At Grayson, just above Carlisle here 6 miles. 

The Chairman. Have you been disturbed any way? Did anybody 
try to get you fired ? 

Mr. Schwiegman. No one has so far. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairm'an. 

The Chairman. In what capacity are you employed at Carlisle,. 
Mis. Kaup? 

^frs. Kaup. Normal teacher. 

Tlic Chairman. How long have you been working in that capacity ? 

Mrs. Kaup. As normal teacher, I think, 4 or 5 years. I am not 
qui e srrc. I think this is my fifth term, or fourth, but I was a teacher 
in the crrades before. 


The Chairman. What are the relations between Superintendent 
Friedman and the pupils in the school? 

Mrs. Kaup. Well, I do not know so much about that, but I am 
afraid they are not very good. 

The Chairman. Do you know how he is looked upon by the em- 
ployees in the school? 

Mrs. Kaup. By some, I suppose, all right ; and by some he is not. 

The Chairman. Would you say that the relations between the 
supermtendent and the employees generally speaking are amicable 
or otherwise ? 

M\ Kaup. Otherwise. 

The Chairman. What is that due to? 

Mrs. Kaup, I think to his insolence to us. 

The Chairman. Is he disagreeable at times ? 

Mrs. Kaup. Yes. 

The Chairman. How many pupils have you in your department? 

Mrs. Kaup. I have, since last September, enrolled 141; but some 
went to the country, some ran away, and I promoted a few, and I have 
now 115, I think. 

The Chairman. What progress is being made in the normal depart- 
ment ? If it is not satisfactory, tell me briefly why you think it is 
not so. 

Mrs. Kaup. Why, the crowd is too big. I have too many. The 
pupils that come to my department are the beginners. Some are 
adults; and this year they brought in quite a number of small ones, 
and they are just a class of pupils without any individual attention, 
and the crowd is too large. I have six girls that are pupil teachers, 
and I am supposed to train those, and they are to have classes. The 
understanding is that each pupil teacher shall have about six, and then 
I am to oversee and give them training. There was a time when there 
was an assistant, but that was abolished before I took the position. 

It so happens that the number is so big that I have 53 pupils of my 
own that I teach, and they are of three different grades. That makes 
the work harder, too. I have five grades, so that makes a great deal 
of planning. • I have 53 of my ow^n, and then I am obliged to give the 
pupil teachers my pupils, those they ought to have. Two of my most 
advanced pupils, those I have had two years — one is 16 and the other 
is 13. They need so much individual attention that I am not able to 
give the pupil teachers the same attention that I ouo;ht to give. I 
have what I call observation lessons. I keep the whole school in the 
room, and I give a drill lesson for the pupil teachers to observe. They 
must be present. Then what little time I have I oversee the work, 
and I try to keep in touch with it. For example, when I have third- 
grade pupils, I have to give to two of the pupil teachers third pupils. 
Then I keep in touch with that. I consult with them and explain 
to them how to handle the lesson. If I think it is something special, 
I call the pupils out and give the thill in my room, and then I require 
them to hand in a program every day. 

When they are excused the girls have so little time. There was a 
time when the normal teacher was allowed a half hour each session to 
consult with her pupil teachers on methods, but when the whistle 
blows the girls must go. Once in a while I just keep them a little and 
give them some extra training. I get my class started, and take the 
pupil teachers, and give them instructions. But I can not look after 


them, because I have too many of my own. I can not look after them 
as I would like to. The worst is the scholars are getting rid of the 
attention they ought to have. There are too many that need indi- 
vidual attention. Some of them when they come can not understand 
a word of English, and they especially need attention. 

The Chairman. How does the discipline now prevailing compare 
with what it formerly was ? 

Mrs. Kaup. It is very good to what it was. 

The Chairman. When did it begin to improve ? 

Mrs. Kaup. Since last September, about. 

The Chairman. It is very much better now than it was up to last 
September ? 

Mrs. Kaup. Yes. 

The Chairman. What is the cause of that improvement; do you 

Mrs. Kaup. No; I could not tell, unless they have made stricter 

The Chairman. How does the discipline compare under Mr. Fried- 
man's administration with that of other administrations you have 
known here ? 

Mrs. Kaup. I came here just shortly before Mr. Friedman came. 
Well, I think it was — I know it was better before. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. What employment have you now, Mr. Miller ? 

Mr. Miller. My official position is that of financial clerk. 

The Chairman. At the Carlisle School ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. As such clerk do you keep the records of the ath- 
letic association? 

Mr. Miller. I do. 

The Chairman. What is that association? Is it a corporation? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; it is a corporation, consisting of tl>e employees 
and the pupils who are entitled to wear the ''C." 

The Chairman. How many are there? 

Mr. Miller. I do not know. I do not know what the requirements 

The Chairman. Do you know any pupils who are members of the 
corporation ? 

Mr. Miller. Practically all the players, I think, are. 

The Chairman. Who are the officer.-; of the corporation? 

Mr. Miller. The officers are Mr. Warner, president; myself, as 
secretary and treasurer; we two together with Mr. Friedman compose 
the executive committee. 

The Chairman. The atliletic association is kept separate and apart 
from the school, I believe, in a way? 

Mr. ]\[iller. Yes, sir; that is, the accounts. 

The Chairman. That is what I moan. 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How are the accounts kept and what records do 
you keep ? 


Mr. Miller. I keep them in regular ledj^er form. This is the 

The Chairman. How long hare you been kee})ing this account? 

Mr. Miller. Since February 9, 1907. 

The Chairman. You do all the work on the books yourself ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You have made all the entries in th(» ledger since 
that time? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Just explain brief!}' how you keej) the accounts of 
receipts and expenditures. 

Mr. Miller (indicating). Credits are taken up in this column, the 
gains on the righthand side here; and the expenditures are \\Titten in 
here on the lefthand side, all by check. There is nothing paid out 
except by check. Those are the check numbers, and this is the payee's 
name that appears here. 

The Chairman. And the checks are your vouchers? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You use them as receipts, of course ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. In most cases we have receipted bills in 
addition to the checks. 

The Chairman. You take itemized accounts ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. So as to show what enters into the expenditure as 
indicated by the check? 

Mr. Miller. That is it. 

The Chairman. Where do you keep your account? In a bank? 

Mr. Miller. In the Farmers Trust Company, Carlisle. 

The Chairman. What are the sources of income to this fund ? How 
is the fund obtained ? 

Mr. Miller. The main source is the proceeds derived from the 
games — football games, and lacrosse and basketball. 

The Chairman. How do your annual accounts run ? From what 
dates ? Do you run by the calendar or by the school year ? 

Mr. Miller. Neither. It all just runs ri^ht along. 

The Chairman. When do you strike a balance ? 

Mr. Miller. At the end of each month I strike a balance, and the 
balance is certified to by an auditor. Well, the committee is com- 
posed of Mr. Ray, Mr. Warner, and Mr. Friedman, but recently it has 
dwindled down to Mr. Ray, an attorney of Carlisle, who audits my 
accounts monthly and certifies the fact on my ledger. 

The Chairman. Does Mr. Ray render any other services as attor- 
ney other than services as auditor? 

Mr. Miller. He did during the incorporation. 

The Chairman. I mean since the association was organized. 

Mr, Miller. No, sir. 

The Chairman. What is he paid ? 

Mr. Miller. $100 a year. 

The Chairman. Quarterly ? 

Mr. Miller. $25 quarterly. 

The Chairman. What does he do ? What does his work consist of ? 

Mr. Miller. Sinv[)ly verifying my accounts. 

The Chairman. I know, but how does he verify them? 


Mr. Miller. He takes the statements we get from the games, 
verifies the receipts and other moneys that are taken up. There are 
other minor entries, such as trunks that are purchased from this fund 
and kept in the storehouse and sold. That money comes back. 
And at one time umbrellas for the pupils were handled that way. 
He verifies all the receipts and takes the cancelled checks' and checks 
them off, and obtains the outstanding checks each month and com- 
pares my balance with the bank balance. 

The Chairman. He does that every month? 

Mr. Miller. He does that each month. 

The Chairman. What day of the month does he usually do that ? 

Mr. Miller. As soon as I have the accounts ready for him, usually 
within two or three days after the close of the month. 

The Chairman. How long does it require him to do it ? 

Mr. Miller. I should say not more than an hour. 

The Chairman. He comes out to your office, or do you take your 
books to him ? 

Mr. Miller. He comes here. 

The Chairman. What was the total income from the games — 
football, basketball, and other sports — chargeable to the athletic 
fund for the year 1913 ? Can you tell me that? 

Mr. Miller. Not exactly. I could approximately. 

The Chairman. The book would show ? 

Mr. Miller. The book will show, certainly; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What do you thmk it would amount to ? 

Mr. Miller. I should say between $20,000 and $25,000. 

The Chairman. For the year 1913? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, su\ 

The Chairman. What charges are paid out of this fund ? How 
are the expenditures governed ? Who regulates what shall be paid 
out of it? 

Mr. Miller. Anything except transportation charges or anything 
that Mr. Warner looks after^ — the others usually come to the super- 
intendent, who passes on them, and I write the check, and Mr. Warner 
signing it, that gives the apj>roval of all three members of the execu- 
tive committee. 

The Chairman. Do you yourself sign checks ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; as treasurer, and Mr. Warner as president. 

The Chairman. He countersigns them as presid nt? 

Mr. Miller. We both sign them; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. The supermtendent O. K.'s the accounts or bills? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And you draw the checks, and the coach — what is 
his official positii^n ? 

Ml'. Miller. He is the coach, tlie atliletic director. 

The Chairman. The athletic director countersigns the checks. 
How have the ex])enditures been running with reference to the 
income of the fund ? They have a balance each year? 

Mr. Miller. Oh, yes; they have had a balance each year, excepthig 
one year I recall we ran short when there was a thousand dollars 
advanced by Mr. Warner and Mr. 1 riedman. Just now tliere is a 
surj)his of $25,000. 

Th^. Chairman, "i'ou liave prockiced here and ])resented to the 
comniiijsion what appears to hi' stub check books, numbca-ed from 


1 to 7, inclusive. These books appear to be the stu])s of the checks 
you have drawn 

Mr. Miller. Drawn since the date I have given. 

The Chairman. Since you first became treasurer? 

Mr. Miller. Well, I was treasurer of this fund before this date, 
but it was not kept m this way. The funds were kept in another 

The Chairman. From what date is this ? 

Mr. Miller. This date is from 1907, February 9. 

The Chairman. So that for every expenditure you have made you 
have the checks paid and also the stub of the check ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And in many instances you itemized statements of 
account ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. So that you can tell what payments were made 
for any month, to whom they were made, and for what ? 

Mr. Miller. In every instance; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Running over some of these accounts, I want to 
ask you about some of the expenditures. Who is Mr. Hugh Miller? 

]Mr. Miller. He is an attorney m Carlisle whose maui work is that 
of newspaper reporting. 

The Chairman. I see here under date of January, 1908, a check, 
No. 552, ''Camera, S140.68, for Mr. Miller." Was that a movmg 
picture camera ? 

Mr. Miller, No, su'. It was a camera that was purchased for him 
to take pictures of games. It was a large box camera. 

The Chairman. Then under the same date, Januarv, 1908, check 
No. 578 

Representative Carter. Where is that camera now ? 

Mr. Miller. In his possession. He always has had it. 

Representative Carter. Is he a member of the association ? 

Mr. Miller. He is not. He is a newspaper man. 

The Chairman. I see also a check, No. 578, to Hugh Miller, $100, 
and No. 579 

Mr. Miller. No. 578 is Shoemaker, isn't it? 

The Chairman. Well, 580 was to whom ? 

Mr. Miller. To Wallace Denny. 

The Chairman. No. 578 was to Hugh Miller? 

Mr. Miller. Oh; to Dr. Shoemaker for additional services. 

The Chairman. Who is Mr. G. M. Diffenderfer ? 

Mr. Miller. I would like to explain in regard to that $100 in favor 
of myself, if there is any exception to it. 

The Chairman. I do not know that there is any exception to it. 
While attention has been called to it, we have not raised any question 
about it. 

Mr. Miller. That came about this way: During Gen. Pratt's time 
he came in the office one day and told me lie was going to pay me 
$100 additional salary for athletic services. I had practically written 
the history of the Carlisle School in a card system. If you wanted to 
find a pupil's record you had to refer to probably 100 (lifl'erent places 
throughout the book. I decided to put in a card system and arrange 
the cards by tribes for pupils no longer connected with the school, 
and those that were I arranged alphabetically. The old general appre- 
ciated that very much, and he gave me $100 additional that year. 


The next year, rather than have me fall down, lie paid it again. In 
both cases it was paid from the charity fund, or emergency fund, 
and thereafter each year I received that amount until those funds 
were abohshed, and then from this fund. It was always considered 
a part of the salary. 

The Chairman. Why was it paid out of the athletic funds? 

Mr. Miller. Because those other fimds had gone out of existence. 

The Chairman. The athletic fund, as a matter of fact, is a kind 

Mr. Miller. A cure for all diseases. 

The Chairman. A good many things are paid out of the athletic 
fund that have no relation to athletics ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes. 

The Chairman. In that connection, what other items do you know 
of that are payable out of the athletic fund that are not directly con- 
nected with athletics ? Do you pay any employees who are also 
receiving Government salaries? 

Mr. Miller. Yes; that item just above these to Dr. Shoemaker. 
That was for his services in accompanying the teams, as I understood 

The Chairman. If he accompanied the teams on their expeditions, 
that might be considered directly connected wdth the athletic work. 
Do you pay Mrs. E. II. Foster? 

Mr. Miller. Recently? Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How much does she receive ? 

Mr. Miller. She gets $15 per month for looking after the Y. W. 
C. A. work. I do not know her salary. She is a teacher. 

The Chairman. Mr. R. L. Mann is another, I beheve, who is a 
teacher, and he receives $15 a month? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir, he was paid up until last fall. 

The Chairman. Has that been discontinued ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Why? 

Mr. Miller. I believe he was relieved from the work. He had 
charge of the Y. M. C. A. work. 

The Chairman. You receive a salary as financial clerk, and in 
addition to that you receive from the athletic fund $35 a month for 
keeping these accounts ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Mr. Dietz receives a salary, too, as Indian art 
assistant, and gets a salary as assistant coach, does he not? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; he does. 

The Chairman. How much does he get as assistant coach ? 

Mr. Miller. I really do not know the amount, unless you have 
made a note of it there. 

Inspector Linnen. About $500 each year. 

Mr. Miller. I think that is it. 

The Chairman. I asked you a moiiK'nt ago about the item for 
Mr. l)iflVnd(M-f(r. January 8 he appears to have received $20 salary. 
Wli at is that for? 

Mr. Miller. At that time he had charge of the afternoon services 
in tlie chapel. 

The Chairman. Is he a minister? 

Mr. Miller. He was a Lutheran minister in town. 


The Chairman. Wliat salary was paid him ? 

Mr. Miller. Ho got $5 for each service — $5 a Sunday. Since that 
time it has been divided up among all the ministers of the town, and 
they get $5 per service. 

The Chairman. How many ministers have been paid for that 
service ? 

Mr. Miller. I believe all of them. All the ministers in town 
take their turn at taking charge, . 

The Chairman. Why is that? 

Mr. Miller. I could not say, sir. 

The Chairman. You have nothing to do with that ? Who makes 
that arrangement ? 

Mr. Miller. The superintendent. 

The Chairman. An arrangement is made, then, that every minis- 
ter in town gets an afternoon in his turn, for which he receives $5 
for his services ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Who did j^ou say Hugh Miller is ? Is he ixdated 
to you ? 

Mr. Miller. He is not related to me. 

The Chairman. He is in the newspaper business ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Is he on a local newspaper ? 

Mr. Miller. I think not. 

The Chairman. Is he a correspondent for papers ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. He appears to have received generally $200 a 
year during the last two or three years for services. What kind of 
services does he render? 

Mr. Miller. Nothing more than sending out reports about the 

The Chairman. Look at the check No. 1183, January 2, 1909. 
It appears he received $50 at that time. What was that for? 

Mr. Miller. I do not recall that item. Here is my record. I 
did not know at that time, and I do not know yet. 

The Chairman. I see you have an interrogation mark there on 
that stub under date of January 2, 1909. What does that mean? 

Mr. Miller. I do not know what it was for. 

The Chairman. You were not furnished information at the time 
as to what it was for, and you made that memorandum ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You do not know what it was for? 

Mr. Miller. No, sir. 

The Chairman. By check No. 2112, under date of September 19, 
1910, it appears that Hugh Miller received $100 for advertising. 

Mr. Miller. It is probably for the same purpose. 

The Chairman. You mean for sending out news ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Now, by check No. 2231, October 31, 1910— — 

Mr. Miller. On No. 2112 the stub is marked, "Advance on account 
of advertising." 

The Chairman. What other advertising did the team do ? 

Mr. Miller. Now, there were several games that he advertised and 
got a percentage from the game. I do not recall that this was just 


one of those occasions or not. It probably was, on account of being 
marked here "account of advertising." 

The Chairman. Do you know what he did ? 

Mr. Miller. He passed bills about town and had placards printed, 

The Chairman. Now, turn to check No. 22.31, October .31, 1910. 
The total of that check was $1,509.22. 

Mr. Miller. That is in my favor. I had charge of a game that 
was played at Wilkes-Barre, and this is reimbursement for my ex- 
penses there. In other words, that is the total expenses that I paid 
out, and this is reimbursing me. 

The Chairman. Mr. Miller did not get any of that ? 

Mr. Miller. No, sir; I personally received nothing. 

Inspector Linnen. Your bills sliow that Mr. Miller got $300 of 

The Chairman. You have an itemized bill of that expenditure, 
and you say now that Mr. Miller received $300 ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. I recall that now. 

The Chairman. Now, bv check No. 2215, under date of October 29, 
1910, I find another item of $295.65. What is that for? 

Mr. Miller. I believe that is the balance on the same account, 
'settlement in full. 

The Chairman. Was that for one game? 

Mr. Miller. I believe it was, to the best of my recollection. 

The Chairman. Now, by check No. 2812, 1-6-1912, I find another 
item of $150 to Hugh R. Miller for services. 

Mr. Miller. That was not in connection with any special game. 
It .was the amount paid him for the season's work. The check 
following it 

The Chairman. What work did he do during the season? That is 
what I want. 

Mr. Miller. I think that was simply newspaper work, without 
anything special. 

The Chairman. What kind of work? Can you inform us about 
what he is expected to do ? 

Mr. Miller. I do not know what he was requested to do, if that 
is what you mean. All I know that he did was to send out matter 
for the papers that he represents. 

The Chairman. That was published as news, was it not, as a matter 
of fact ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes. 

The Chairman. What association did he represent? Does he 
represent the Associated Press? Does he represent the Scripps- 
McRae ? 

Mr. IMiLLER. I do not know. I was informed that he corresponded 
with probably as many as 200 papers, but whether that is true or not 
I could not say. 

The Chairman. The probability is that he would represent an 
association of newspapers, and what I am trying to find out is what 
association it is. 

Mr. Miller. I do not know. 

The Chairman. Who is Mr. J. L. Martin? 

Mr. Miller. That was his assistant at that time. 


The Chairman. I find by chock No. 2813 under the same date as 
the last check mentioned to Mr. Miller, Mr. Marthi was paid $150. 
What was that for ? 

Mi-. Miller. That was the same class of work, he being Mr. Mil- 
ler's assistant. 

The Chairman. By check No. 317-i, dated December 3, 1912, it 
appears that Mr. Miller received $150 as correspondent. Is that the 
same kind of work ? 

Ml'. Miller. The same thmg. 

The Chairman. And under the same date, by check No. 3175 
you paid Mr. J. L. Martin, as correspondent, $150. 

Ml-. Miller. The same thing. 

The Chairman. Do you know anything about how those accounts, 
the correctness of those accounts, is arrived at? How are the 
amounts determmed ? 

Mr. Miller. I do not know. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether he is on a salary — who 
o.k.'s these accounts? 

Mr. Miller. The supermtendent o.k.'s them. 

The Chairman. Now, by check No. 3571 under date of November 
2, 1913, there is an item of $200 to Hugh R. Miller, of which $100 
went to Mi\ Miller and $100 to Mr. Martin. 

Mr. Miller. That is the same thing. 

The Chairman. Then by check No. 3578, 12-2-13, there appears 
to have been another check issued to the same Mi\ Miller for $100. 

Ml-. Miller. That was the same thing. The $200 and the $100 
taken together made the $300 for that year. 

The Chairman. Now, let us look at some items of this account 
I hat relate to Mi-. Friedman, the superintendent. Check No. 1181, 
under date of January 20, 1909, appears to have been issued to Mr. 
Friedman for expenses to Washington, m the sum of $70.90. 
On what theory were the expenses of the superintendent paid to 
Washington paid out of the athletic fund ? 

Ml-. Miller. It was paid at his request, he submitting a bill for that 

The Chairman. What I am trying to find out is why he re(juired 
you to pay that out of the athletic fund. What was he doing in 
Washmgton for the atliletic association ? What was his rule about 
that, if you know whether he had a rule, Mr. Miller ? Maybe you can 
explain the whole thing by a general statement. I see here a great 
many items of expense for Mr. Friedman to Washington charged to 
the athletic fund and paid out of it. Now, if you can make a general 
statement as to the theory upon which that was done, I would be 

Mr. Miller. I could not tell that. 

The Chairman. You do not undertake to pass on that? 

Mr. Miller. No, sir; he submitted the statements and I wrote the 

The Chairman. Without c(uestion ? 

Mr. Miller. Without question, and Mr. Warner signed them. 

Representative Stephens. Who O. K'd the statements? 

Mr. Miller. Mr. Friedman. I attach a little slip to the bills, re- 
questing autliority to pay them, and he signs those slips. I have 

35601— PT 11—14 11 


those slips in all cases on those bills, which are kept on a Shannon file 
in numerical order. 

The Chairman. Further than that you were not charged with the 
duty of auditing his accounts ? 

Mr. Miller. Oh, no. 

The Chairman. He audited his owTi accounts? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Now, I find check No. 1534, under date of Sep- 
tember 4, 1909, expenses to Washington, $16. 

Mr. Miller. That is marked, "Expenses to Washington, $16." 

The Chairman. I am going to call your attention to a large number 
of items of the same character, and you may verify them all at once. 
Check No. 1633, October 28, 1909, expenses to Washington, $87. 
That is correct, is it? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Then, check No. 1806, January 29, 1910, expenses 
to Washington, $27. 

Mr. Miller. Right. 

The Chairman. Check No. 2001, May 24, 1910, expenses to Hamp- 
ton, $16. 

Mr. Miller. Hampton and Tuskegee Institute, $16. Right. 

The Chairman. Check No. 2016, January 28, 1910, expenses to 
Philadelphia, Pa., $17. 

Mr. Miller. Right. 

The Chairman. Mileage books, $40. 

Mr. Miller. What date is that ? 

The Chairman. It appears here. 

Mr. Miller. That is for $17. That is right. At the close of each 
month I pay the bill to the Cumberland Valley Raihoad Co., and the 
mileage books are included in that. 

The Chairman. Do you know wliat amount of mileage books you 
bought for Mr. Friedman ? 

Mr. Miller. Not exactly. There are eight. 

Inspector Linnen. There are a lot more besides those. 

The Chairman. Just give the dates. 

Mr. Miller. March 3, 1910, one book, $20; July 15, 1910, one 
book, $20; October 23, 1911, one book, $20; July 31, 1911, one book; 
September 11, 1912, one book; September 21, 1912, one book; June 
25, 1913, one book; November 14, 1913, one book. 

The Chairman. A memorandum furnished me here is a receipt 
under date of February 19, 1910, "To one mileage book, No. 125135, 
to Superintendent Friedman, $20." That is correct, is it? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Now, I also hold in my hand a receipt under date 
of July 31, 1911, "one mileage ticket (Mr. Friedman), $20; Cum- 
berland VaUey Railroad." Is that correct too ? 

Mr. Miller. That is one we just mentioned. That is correct. 

The Chairman. I also hold a receipt under date of October 23, 
1911, "mileage ticket for Mr. Friedman, $20." That has also been 
mentioned and is correct ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chahiman. Under date of September 11, 1912, "one mileage 
ticket, Mr. Friedman, $20; Cimiberland Valley Railroad." That, 
too, has been mentioned, I believe, and is correct ? 


Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Under date of June 25. 1913, "mileage ticket fop 
Mr. Friedman, $20." That is correct, is it? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Under date of November 14, 1918, "mileage 
ticket for Mr. Friedman." with others in the same receipt, S20. That 
is correct, is it ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Have you assisted and cooperated with Inspector 
Linnen in checking up these mileage accounts charged to the athletic 
association on account of Mr. Friedman ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You have also assisted him, 1 believe, in checking 
up his accounts of expenses and expenditures as superintendent of 
the school, have you not? 

Mr. Miller. Government vouchers ? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Have you also gone through the accounts in the 
office of the auditor of the Cumberland Valley Raih'oad and checked 
the items there with reference to trips made by Mr. Friedman to 
ascertain what mileage was in fact used in connection with his 
accounts as superintendent and special disbursing agent? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. Both the Cumberland Valley and the 

The Chairman. Is it true or not that your investigation as stated 
disclosed that Mr. Friedman was furnished wdth these mileage books 
and used them on these trips to Washington, and at the same time 
charged the expenses as raih'oad fare in liis accounts as superintend- 
ent against the Government? 

Mr. Miller. Some of them. 

The Chairman. Which ones? 

Mr. Miller. Mileage books Nos. 125135, 125300 

The Chairman. Now, will you mark them? There are only 

Mr. Miller (continuing). And 923319, I beheve 

The Chairman. Let us make sure of that. 

Mr. Miller. I have made a memorandum now, and can give it to 
you: 125135. 125300, 923319. 

The Chairman. Just take your memorandum there and state what 
you checked with reference to those mileage books and what the books 
in the office of the auditor of the Cumberland Valley Railroad and the 
Pennsylvania Railroad disclosed \\ith reference to those charges. 

Mr. Miller. Book No. 125300 was used on Cumberland Valley 
train 13, March 5, 1910, Harrisburg. 

Allow me to start again: Book No. 125135, used on train No. 4, 
March 3, 1910, Conductor McCleary, Carfisle to Harrisburg, 38 miles, 
two passengers. 

Book No. 125300, used on train No. 13, ^March 5, 1910, Harrisburg 
to Carfisle, 38 miles, fifted, two passengers. Conductor Snodgrass. 

Book No. 125300, train No. 4, Marcli 17, 1910, Carlisle to Harris- 
burg, Conductor Lynn, 19 miles, lifted, one passenger. 

Book No. 125300, train No. 1 1 , March 18, 1910, Harrisburg to Car- 
fisle, number of passengers 1, mileage 19, Conductor Wetzel. 


Mileage book 923319, train No. 8, October 23, 1911, Carlisle to Har- 
risburg, two passengers, mileage 38, Conductor Lynn. 

Over the Pennsylvania Railroad I found the following, upon 
checking the auditor's accounts: Mileage book 125135, March 3, 
1910, train No. 64, Conductor W. D. Schubert, Harrisburg to Phila- 
delphia, two passengers, 196 miles; beginning 805, ending 1,000. 

Book No. 125300, same date, train, conductor, and points, 12 
miles; beginning 1, ending 12. 

Book No. 125300, March 3, 1910, train No. 124, Conductor C. W. 
Parks, Philadelphia to New York, two passengers, number of miles 
180; beginning 13, ending 192. 

Book 125300, March 5, 1910, train No. 7; A. L. Priser, conductor; 
betw^een New York and Philadelphia, two passengers, 180 miles; 
mileage beginning 193, ending 372. 

Same book, 125300, March 25, 1910, train 27, Conductor H. W. 
Harding, Philadelphia to Harrisburg, two passengers, number of 
miles 208; beginning 373, ending 580. 

Same book, 125300, March 17, 1910, train No. 20, Conductor A. B. 
Wherley, Harrisburg to Baltimore, one passenger, 84 miles; mileage, 
638 721 

Same book, 125300, March 17, 1910, train 321, Conductor C. T. 
Sparks, Harrisburg to Washington, one passenger, 40 miles; mileage 
722 to 761. 

Same book, 125300, March IS, 1910, train 320, Conductor J. W. 
Smith, Washington to Baltimore, one passenger, 40 miles; 762 to 801. 

Same book, 125300, March 18, 1910, train 21, Conductor J. H. Mill- 
stead, Baltimore to Harrisburg, one passenger, 84 miles; 802 to 885. 

Mileage book 923319, October 23, 1911, train No. 8, Conductor J. B. 
Hunt, Harrisburg to Baltimore, two passengers, 168 miles; beginning 
38, ending 206. 

Same book, 923319, October 23, 1911, train No. 11, Conductor B. F. 
Dennis, Baltimore to Washington, two passengers, 80 miles; mileage 
120 to 206. 

The Chairman. Then it appears from the records in the office of 
the auditors of these two railror.d-^ vrd the authenticated copies of the 
accounts of Mr. Friedman as superintendent and special disbursing 
agent of the Indian Industrial School, that on these occasions and 
trains, while the mileage books which are paid for out of the athletic 
fund w^ere actually used, he also charged the Government in his 
expense account for his railroad fare? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I have a memorandum in my hand showing other 
expense items paid to Mr. Friedman from the athletic fund, which I 
am informed you have checked on your books. Check No. 2615, July 
11, 191 1, expenses to New York, .S22. Is that correct? 

Mr. Miller. Right. 

The Chairman. Check No. 2622, July 28, same year, expenses to 
Washington, 117. 

Mr. Miller. Right. 

The Chairman. Check No. 2747, November 20, 1911, expenses to 
Philadelphia, Pa., $55. 

Mr. Miller. Right. 

The Chairman. Check No. 2800, July 26, 1911, expenses to Boston, 


Mr. Miller. Right. 

The Chairman. Check No. 2848, January 27, 1912, expenses to 
Washmgton, S42.2(). 

Air. Miller. Right. 

The Chairman. Check No. 3138, November 14, 1912, expenses to 
Washington, $75.65. 

Mr. Miller. Right. 

The Chairman. ^Check No. 2929, April 9, 1912, expenses, $58.60. 
What was that for ? 

Mr. AIiller. My memorandum is marked ''expenses." 

The Chairman. Do you know whom it was paid to? 

Mr. Miller. To Mr. "Friedman. 

The Chairman. Do you know what it is for? Have you an 
itemized statement of that? 

Mr. Miller. I may have; I hn.^^e not here. 

The Chairman. When you go back to the office, wiU you take a 
little time and look for that? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Check No. 3138, November 14, 1912, expenses to 
Washhigton, $75.65. That is correct, is it? 

Mr. Miller. Correct. 

The Chairman. Check No. 3130, November 15, 1912, expenses to 
Philadelpliia, Pa., $69.20. 

"Sir. Miller. Not paid to Mr. Friedman direct, but to Bellevue- 
Stratford Hotel. 

The Chairman. Was there an item in there of $10 for theater? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I notice another memorandum there, additional 
expenses to Philadelphia, Pa., $22, in the same account. 

Mr. Miller. That is right. 

The Chairman. Check No. 3508, October 4, 1913, hotel bill at 
Philadelphia, Friedman, $54.05. 

Mr. Miller. Right. 

The Chairman. The face of those checks would not show the actual 
dates he was in Washington ? 

Mr. Miller. The bill shows. 

The Chairman. Turn to check No. 3311, April 9, 1913, $102.70. 
What was that for ? 

Mr. Miller. That check book is in my office. 

The Chairman. Look at the memorandum there and see if you can 

Mr. Miller. That was for entertaining guests during commence- 

The (^HAiRMAN. By whom ? 

Mr. Miller. By Mr. Friedman. 

The Chairman. Was there an itemized statement of that presented ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Will you furnish that ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I find five checks as follows: No. 1499 — maybe 
you can just tell from this— No. 1499, August 31, 1909, $90. No. 
1533. September 2, 1909. $60. No. 3025, August 10, 1910. $60. 
No. 3028, August 10, 1912, $60. No. 3188, December 9, 1912, $7.20. 

What were all those checks issued for ? 


Mr. Miller. For the purpose of insurance on the buildings. 

The Chairman. What buikhngs ? 

Ml". Miller. The athletic buildings. 

The Chairman. The Government does not carry any insurance 
on the buildings, I believe ? 

Mr. Miller. I could not say. 

The Chairman. Would it not be paid for through you? 

Mr. Miller. Mr. Warner keeps the accounts. 

The Chairman. That is on the athletic buildings ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; I think it is all on the athletic buildings. 

The Chairman. I find a number of items of S2 for the arrest of 
each Indian boy or pupil found in Carlisle ^\■ithout a pass, paid to the 
chief of police John L. Boyer, who appears to have received various 
checks aggregating quite an amount for such arrests. Is there an 
arrangement whereby the athletic fund is required to pay $2 for every 
boy an ested ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; when the boys have no money in the bank. 

The Chairman. Do you know upon what theory that is done? 

Mr. Miller. To prevent the bo3^s going into town without a permit. 

The Chairman. Why should all that be charged to the atliletic 
fund, if you know of any reason ? 

Mr. Miller. I think I do. The police would not be interested in de- 
taining the boy if they received S2 sometimes and not on every occa- 
sion. When a boy has no mone}" in the bank the police would be out 
the cost of the arrest; so the atliletic association is called upon to pay 
it when the boys have no money in the bank. 

The Chairman. How is the amount of $2 arrived at as proper? 

Mr. Miller. I could not say. 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact they do not get anything like 
that when they arrest on a warrant, do they? I do not know what 
the statutes of Pennsylvania are, but in many of the States with whose 
statutes I am familiar the fees of sheriffs for making an arrest would not 
be anything like that. Anyway, that is just an arbitrary arrange- 
ment that the superintendent has effected with the chief of police, 
and is designed to keep the boys in and prevent them from stealing 
away ? 

Mt. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Have loans m- advances been made to boys on the 
football teams at vaiious times? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. $200 appears to have been advanced to Albert 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And $300 to Louis Tewanana, and also $50 ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. There are other items of that kind. 

Mr. ^[iLLER. Y(>s, sir. 

The Chairman. Are those loans or advances lepaid, or in the nature 
of a bonus ? 

Mr. Miller. Those were not repaid. 

The Chairman. How did you pay them out — upon what authority ? 
You do not just voluntarily make the payments, I assume. I will say 
in this connection that your books show very clearly indeed, even to 
a man who is not an expert accountant. 


Mr. Miller. They are authorized by the superintendent, and, as 
I said before, the bills are approved by the president and by signing 
the check. 

The Chairman. Have you checked up to see how much was paid 
to the football boys m 1908 ? 

Mr. Miller. I have. 

The Chairman. It appears from the memorandum furnished me 
that on December 10, 1908, the total amount paid on this account 
was .$4,283. 

]VIr. Miller. That was the amount of the check. 

The Chairman. That was to pay football boys, was it ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes. 

The Chairman. I find also by check No. 508, December 4, there 
is an item of $3,667.63. What account was that paid from, and 
what was it for ? 

Mr. Miller. From the athletic account, and for the boys. 

The Chairman. For the football boys ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What other advances in the nature of bonuses are 
usually made to the football boys ? What other allowances ? 

^'Ir. Miller. Since the practice of paying the money was abolished, 
they have been allowed an overcoat and a suit of clothing each year. 

The Chairman. And that is paid out of the athletic fund ? 

Mr. Miller. They are given orders on the merchants of town to 
secure this clothing, and the bills are paid from this fund. The 
boys get no money. 

The Chairman. It appears that by check No. 1051, November 21, 
1908, an item of $15 was paid to the Postal Telegraph Co. What 
was that for ? 

Mr. Miller. For election returns. 

The Chairman. I believe the business department and the 
academic buildings were constructed out of the athletic funds, or do 
you know ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; I tliink the most of it. 

The Chairman. That cost approximately $7,000, didn't it? 

Mr. Miller. Those were Mi". Warner's estimates. 

The Chairman. The material for the building was paid for out 
of the athletic fund, and the work done by the Government ? 

Mi\ Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I see a check here. No. 3394, June 25, 1913, to 
George Walker, sheriff, and another 

Mr. Miller. One moment. 

The Chairman. George Walker, sheriff, $10. What was that for? 

Mr. Miller. That was for arresting a girl in Chambersburg, as I 

The Chairman. Have you an itemized statement of that? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Will you get that for me if it is not too much 
trouble, please ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Now, I see another check. No. 3407, H. J. Bentley, 
detective, $10. Do you know what that was for? 


Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; that was for his services in trying to appre- 
hend boys who were absent from the school without leave ; boys who 
were meeting town girls out by the fair grounds. 

The Chairman. Now, I find among these checks, a number of items 
for clippings. For instance, check No. 3476, October 6, 1913, clip- 
pings, $30. What does that mean? 

Mr. Miller. Clipping from the Luces Press, for the superintend- 

The Chairman. From the athletic fund? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. I believe the clippings were for anything 
pertainmg to the school or the superintendent. 

The Chairman. I find another check numbered 2854, February 5, 
1912, Argus Press, clippings, S52.35. Do you know what that was for ? 

Mr. Miller. For the same purpose. 

The Chairman. And another, No. 2888, dated February 26, 1912, 
Manhattan Press, clippings, $25. 

Mr. Miller. Same purpose. 

The Chairman. Check No. 2642, Luces Press, clippings, $15. 

Mr. Miller. It should be No. 3641, $15. Same purpose. 

The Chairman. I find check No, 36 

Mr. Miller. No. 3642 is for the arrest of a boy. 

The Chairman. Now, these items were to pay for news chppmgs 
relating to the school and to the superintendent personally? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. On whose order were they paid? 

Mr. Miller. The superintendent's order. 

The Chairman. I fmd check No. 1821, dated February 8, 191 C, 
watches, $308. What does that mean? 

Ml". Miller. For watches for the boys; prizes, I believe. 

The Chairman. The football boys? 

Mr. Miller. I could not say if it was all football. I think it was 
for track teams and other athletic sports. 

The Chairman. On whose order was that? 

Mr. Miller. Mr. Warner, I believe, made the purchase. 

The Chairman. But who ordered it paid? The superintendent? 

Mr. Miller. Oh, yes; the bills were all approved by the superin- 

The Chairman. I fhid a check, No. 1890, under date of March 24, 
1910, to J. W. Wetzel, attorney, $50. What was that for? 

Mr. Miller. I could not say. 

The Chairman. Do you know of any services having been per- 
formed by Wetzel as attorney for the athletic association ? 

Mr. Miller. No, sir. 

The Chairman. I find check No. 1891, March 24, 1910, sermon, 
$125. Wliat is the explanation of that item ? 

Mr. Miller. It was a commencement sermon. 

The Chairman. Do they pay the minister delivering the com- 
mencement sermon annually $125, 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; not always that amount, but he is paid. 

The Chairman. Do you know how they came to be paid that 
amount ? 

Mr. Miller. By the superintendent's order. 

The Chairman. I find check No. 3631, August 24, 1911, Weizel 
and Hambleton, attorneys, $25. Do you know wliat that was for? 


Mr. Miller. I do not. 

Tlie Chairman. I also overlooked a while ago one of the items 
relating to clippmg hiireaiis. Check No. 2698, October 7, 1911, 
clipping bureau, $24.45. Was that for the same kind of service? 

Mr. Miller. No. 2698 is in favor of Mr. O'Brien, assistant coach. 

The Chairman. No. 2699, I should have said. 

Mr. Miller. In favor of the Argus Press Clipping Bureau, $24.45; 
the same as the others. 

The Chairman. The expenses of players are of course paid out of 
the athletic funtl when they go away from home to ])lay a game ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, su'. 

The Chairman. A large number of pupils usually attend those 
games from the school ? 

Mr. Miller. The Philadelphia game. 

The Chairman. They pay their own expenses, of course, when they 
go there? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, su\ 

The Chairman. How much does it amount to ? 

Mr. Miller. $3.70 a round trip. When there are 100 in the party. 
I believe that has always been the rate. 

The Chairman. How man}^ usually go. 

Mr. Miller. From 100 to 200, and sometimes more. 

The Chairman. Wliat was the "charity" account? How did that 
account arise — from what source — and how was it disbursed ? 

Mr. Miller. It is made up of contributions by persons who were 
interested in the school and wished to contribute for it for purposes 
that the Government would not pay. 

The Chairman. Supermtendent Friedman's expenses and those of 
his family when they accompanied hmi were universally paid out of 
the athletic fund when he attended these games ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How did those expense accounts run — pretty 
large ? 

Mr. Miller. You have the figures in almost every case. 

The Chairman. You would, of course, rather not express an opin- 
ion ? Were the accounts always itemized ? 

Mr. Miller. No, su-. 

The Chairman. How did you arrive at the amount to be paid ? 

Mr. Miller. By an expense statement submitted by the superin- 
tendent, showing expenses on each occasion of so much. 

The Chairman. Did he usuaU}^ itemize them ? 

Mr. Miller. No, su\ 

The Chairman. He usually did not. 

Mr. Miller. He did not. 

The Chairman. They were paid on his unitemized statement, by 
the checks as you have shown ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Approved by himself ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. You understand, all these bills are ap- 
proved by the superintendent. 

The Chairman. Yes. You had no authority to audit them, and 
when he instructed you to make payment you did it? 

Mr. Miller. Certainlv. 


The Chairman. Has this fund ever been checked or investigated 
by any representative of the Government prior to Mr. E. B. Linnen, 
the inspector, who has just recentlv gone through it ? 

Mr. Miller. I am not sure. I believe Mr. McConihe looked into 
it, but I am not sure. 

The Chairman. Do you remember when that was? 

Mr. Miller. I could not give you the date; it was during Maj. 
Mercer's administration. 

The Chairman. Was it before your time? 

Mr. Miller. No; I have been heie 14 years. 

The Chairman. I mean, did you have charge of these books then? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. His main inquiry was individual Inchan 
money, and I am not positive whether he looked into the athletic 
account or not. 

Representative Stephens. Was Mr. McConihe a supervisor? 

Mr. Miller. Indian supervisor. 

The Chairman. That is all I want to ask Mr. Miller. 

Representative vStephens. I would like to ask him what they are 
doing with the surplus funds now ? 

Mr. Miller. There is $25,000 on hand; $15,000 deposited at 3 per 
cent and the other is on open account. 

Representative Stephens. What do you mean by " open account ?" 

Mr. Miller. Checking account. 

Representative Stephens. You are leaving about $10,000 in a 
checldng account and $15,000 deposited for whaUtime? 

Mr. Miller. It is a six months' certificate of deposit, bearing 3 per 
cent interest. 

Representative Stephens. I understand you formerly invested in 
railroad bonds and this proved to be quite profitable ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

Representative Stephens. Why did they discontinue that? 

Mr. Miller. That was during Maj. Mercer's administration, and 
Mr. Friedman, I think, was afraid of loss or depreciation of security, 
and preferred to have the money at a lower rate of interest rather than 
invest it in a security which fluctuated. 

Re]U'esentative Stephens. What banks have it? 

Mr. Miller. The Farmers Trust Co. have the account now. 

The Chairman. You know Mr. Stauffer, the band master, here, do 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Were you present at any time when he had an 
interview with Mr. Linnen ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chx\irman. Where were you? 

Mr. Miller. In my office. 

The CtiairMzVN. What date was that, if you remember? 

Mr. Miller. On Thursday of this week, February 5th. 

The Chairman. Did vou see him thei'e on Fridav. Februavv the 
6th, also ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, «ir. 

The Chairman. Did you hear a conversation between Mr. Stauffer 
and Mr. Linnen ? 

Mr. Miller. Part of it. 


The Chairman. What did you hear? Just state from memory or 

Mr. Miller. I made an affidavit of the conversation at that time, 
reading as follows: 

Mr. Stauffer reads affidavit and asks to cliange it. Mr. Linnen asks wtiy he desirea 
to change it. Mr. Stauffer replies, "I have been thinking it over and want to insert 
this," producing a statement in place of what he said. Mr. Linnen asks, "Have you 
consulted anyone in making this statement? " Here I was interrupted, either called 
from the room or didn't hear his reply, and probably other questions and repUes. 

Mr. Linnen then asks, "You then refuse to sign this affidavit?" Mr. Stauffer 
answers, "Yes, sir, in its present form." Mr. Linnen states, "All right, you are 

Mr. Stauffer replies, "I will give you to understand you are not superintendent 
here. You can't bluii" us the way you have been doing things around here." Mr. 
Linnen states, "I told you, you were excused." Mr. Stauffer states, "You can't bluff 
anybody around here. We know you. We are on to your game." 

Mr. Linnen makes no reply. Mr. Stauffer, going, remarks: "Furthermore, you are 
no gentleman," and passing out of the door, he exclaims, "You are no gentleman, do 
you hear that?" 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

Tlie Chairman. Mr. Alartin, what business are you engaged in? 

Mr. Martin. Newspaper business. 

The Chairman. You live in Carlisle, do you ? 

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What is your newspaper ? 

Mr. Martin. I am editor of the Carlisle Evening Herald. 

The Chairman. Are you also correspondent 

Mr. Martin. For the Associated Press and the Philadelphia Even- 
ing Telegram. 

The Chairman. In checking over the accounts of tlie athletic fund 
it appears tliat under date of January 6, 1912, you received a check 
for 1150. 

Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. For what service was that? 

Mr. Martin. Why, for service of material given out and services 
rendered, as typewriting, etc., for the Indian athletic committee, 
during the football and athletic seasons. I am connected with Mr. 
Miller, who has the Letter Shop in Carlisle, and I have a half interest 
in the correspondence to about 120 newspapers. Mr. Miller and I 
have been doing the publicity work for the athletic association during 
the football seasons. I have been here two years, and during that 
season we have received SI 50 each for photographs and the work done 
in advertising footballs games in other cities. 

The Chairman. I find here check No. 3175, under date of Decem- 
ber 3, 1912, by which you received as correspondent $150 in addi- 
tion to the $150 I referred to a while ago. What was that for ? 

Mr. Martin. That was 1913 Oh, one was for 1912 and one for 

1913. It was the same each each year, for services rendered. 

The Chairman. How was that allowance made, Mr. Martin ? 
Was it in the nature of a salary? 

Mr. Martin. No, it was for expenses only. We send out articles 
lots of times uselessly; we take a chance. But during the football 
season and the lacrosse season 

The Chairman. Boosting the game ? 


Mr. Martin. Boosting the crowds for the game. 

The Chairman.. Now, I find another check, No. 3571, under date 
of November 24, 1913, to Hugh R. Miller, editor, $200— $100 to Miller 
and $100 to Martin. That was for the same kind of service, was it? 

Mr. Miller. The $200 check last fall was the first payment, and the 
$100 check the second payment, making the $300, divided between 
the two gentlemen. 

The Chairman. The other check was under date of December 2, 
1913, for $100, which made $150 each? 

Mr. Martin. Yes. 

The Chairman. You send this out in the nature of news? 

Mr. Martin. In the nature of news; yts. It would be paid for in 
newspapers if it were sent as advertising. 

The Chairman. But being sent out i.s news, it w^ould be less 
expensive ? 

Mr. Martin. Yes. 

The Chairman. Does the Associated Press carry that? 

Mr. Martin. No ; they do not carry it. 

The Chairman. Who does carry it? 

Mr. Martin. It is carried in some of these papers. One story 
might be carried in one — one story would not go in all the papers. 
We have about 120 papers. 

The Chairman. Do they belong to an association? 

Mr. Martin. No. Mr. Miller worked for years here to organize a 
news syndicate himself. 

The Chairman. And he sent this out by telegraph or letter? 

Mr. Martin. Mostly by letter. 

The Chairman. To the independent papers that he represents ? 

Mr. Martin. That is it. During the football season we have a 
regular standing order by wire each night for 15 to 20 papers — Boston, 
Chicago, New York, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh — wherever the team 
plays during the season. 

The Chairman. I think you have sufficiently explained. The 
items that went to your associate, Mr. Miller, were for the same kind 
of service ? 

Mr. Martin. Yes; he is the manager; I am a kind of silent partner. 
I do half the work, about, and we divide. It costs us on an 
average, I should judge, $150 a year for postage alone. That does 
not cover the expense. We sent out, I suppose, five or six hundred 
photographs last year. 

The Chairman. You think you do not make anything out of it? 

Mr. Miller. We do not. We lose money as far as the expenses are 
concerned. We probably make the difference up from the money we 
get from the newspapers. We have to send so much out that the 
correspondence itself does make up the dift'erence in the expenses. 

Representative Carter. Is this procedure that 5^ou have at Car- 
lisle for the advertisement of games, etc., customarj^ in the colleges 
throughout the country ? 

Mr. Martin. I believe so. I know it is at Bucknell, where I 

Representative Carter. That is the regular procedure ? 

Mr. Martin. In most of the colleges that I know of. Dickinson 
Colleire did the same. 





Representative Carter. I vrant to ask Mr. Miller a few more ques- 
tions. When was the Carli le Indian School Athletic xlssociation 
formed ? 

Mr. Miller. The athletic association has existed as long as I can 
remember. The constitution and by-laws were printed, as I remem- 
ber, in 1908. The incorporation took place after that date, however. 
The constitution and by-laws, as I said, were printed, I think, in 
1908, and the incorporation was of a more recent date. 

Representative Carter. When was the incorporation ? I notice 
from notes furnished me it was on April 8, 1911. 

Mr. Miller. I think that is correct. 

Representative Carter. Who were the incorporators ? 

Mr. Miller. Mr. Warner, myself, and some of the boys. 

Representative Carter. Which ones of the boys ? 

Mr. Miller. Hauser — I can not recall them. 

Representative Carter. Garlow ? 

Mr. Miller. I beheve William Garlow is one. 

Representative Carter. Was that all ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. What was your method of organization at 
that time ? 

Mr. Miller. There was a meeting called, explaining the purpose 
of the organization 

Representative Carter. It is not necessary to read; I think you 
can tell us in general terms what the method of organization was. 
How did you go about the organization of this athletic association ? 

Mr. Miller. After the meeting was called, ]\Ir. Ray, an attorney 
here, was employed to secure the charter, and that is practically all 
there was to it. 

Representative Carter. Did anybody pay any money into it ? 

Mr. Miller. No, sir. 

Representative Carter. Under what State laws were you incor- 
porated ? 

Mr. Miller. Pennsylvania. 

Representative Carter. Now, who is Mr. Moses Friedman ? 

Mr. Miller. The superintendent. 

Representative Carter. Who is Glenn S. Warner ? 

Mr. Miller. Athletic director. 

Representative Carter. Who is Will H. Miller ? 

Mr. Miller. P^inancial clerk. 

Representative Carter. Who is WilUam Garlow ? 

Mr. Miller. One of the athletic boys. 

Representative Carter, Who was this fellow Hauser? 

Mr. Miller. He was one of the athletic boys. 

Representative Carter. And the other gentleman's name you 
mentioned was one of the boys ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. How 

Mr. Miller. I could not say. 

many belong to that association 


Representative Carter. ^Tiat is the method for joining the 
association ? 

•Mr. Miller. All those entitled to wear the "C," whatever that 
requirement is — Mr. Warner knows, but I could not say — are members 
of the association. 

Representative Carter. Could you give us a general idea ? 

Mr. Miller. They are made up of boys on the track team and the 
baseball team, when they had baseball, and lacrosse and football. 

Representative Carter. The membership of the association, then, 
is composed of you three gentlemen, and those boys who are eligible 
to take part in the Carlisle athletics, according to the decision of Mr. 
Warner ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. What do the boys get out of this ? 

Mr. Miller. They at one time received payments of money. At 
the present thne they get nothing but the prizes they win m the 
contests, and at the close of the football season they get an overcoat 
and a suit of clothing. 

Representative Carter. They get that whether you make a profit 
or not ? 

Mi\ Miller. Well, it could not be well given if there was not a 
profit. There always has been a profit. 

Representative Carter. If you did not make a profit you gentle- 
men would not be expected to dig up from your pockets and make 
those things good ? 

Mr. Miller. I should not think so. 

Representative Carter. What benefit do the other students who 
do not belong to the association get from it ? 

Mr. Miller. There are entertainments — there have been enter- 
tainments, paid for from these funds, given in the school chapel. 
There have been buildings erected from these funds — the business 
department, and the academic building, and the prmting office 

Representative Carter. The other students of the school do not 
get any direct benefit ? All they get is the benefit to the institution ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, su-; indirectly. 

Representative Carter. Does tir. Friedman draw a salary ? 

Mr. Miller. From the association ? 

Representative Carter. Yes. 

Mr. Miller. No, sir. 

Representative Carter. Does Mr. Warner? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. What is his salary ? 

Mr. Miller. $4,000 per year. 

Representative Carter. Do you draw a salary ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. What is your salary ? 

Mr. Miller. S! 20 a year. 

Representative Carter. What are Mr. Friedman's duties in con- 
nection with the association? 

Mr. Miller. To pass upon the bills. 

Representative Carter. Is that all he df^es? 

Mr. Miller. Well, the others, I should say, would come under his 
duties as superintendent, looking after the welfare of the pupils. 


Representative Carter. Then, his position in connection with the 
athletic association does not phice upon him any additional responsi- 
bilities or duties that he would not have if he were not connected 
with the association ^ 

Mr. Miller. I can hardly answer that, not knowing the duties of 
the supermtendent. 

Representative Carter. I believe you said Mrs. Foster drew some- 
thing from this fund, who is a teacher ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. Do you know what her duties as a teacher 

!Mi\ Miller. Her duties in connection with the athletic associatioa ? 

Representative Carter. I believe you said that Mr. Mann, who is 
a teacher, also drew a salary ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; they were paid from tliis fund for the pur- 
pose of looking after the Y. M. C. A. work. 

Representative Carter. But he has no duties whatever in connec- 
tion with the athletic association ? 

Mr. Miller. Not any. 

Representative Carter. I believe you said Mr. William H. Dietz 
drew a salary from the fund ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; but I think he was assistant coach. 

Representative Carter. He draws that for assistant coach? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. So that he is one fellow who does actually 
render some serA^ce to the association for the salary he draws ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; and Mr. Warner. 

Representative Carter. Since your society has been incorporated, 
how many games of football have you played ? 

Mr. Miller. I could not answer that. I could give it approxi- 

Representative Carter. Haven't you a record of it ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; the ledger gives each game separately. 

Representative Carter. I would like to have that in the record- — 
each game separately that jou have played and the amounts you 
received from each game. 

Mr. Miller. I believe Mr. Linnen has that information. I can not 
give it gross and net. I have taken up here the check I have received. 
In some cases we shared in the net receipts and in some cases we 
shared in the gross receipts. 

Representative Carter. What do you mean by the check you 
received ? 

Mr. Miller. The money actually received. 

Representative Carter. Who gives you this check ? 

Mr. Miller. Mr. Warner. 

Representative Carter. Mr. Warner settles the accounts of the 
games and then gives you a check for it ? 

Mr. Miller. No. The teams we play usually have charge of the 
gate receipts. They settle the bills and settle with Mr. Wanier on 
the basis of the contract that he has entered into with them. 

Representative Carter. That check they give liim is always for 
the net receipts ? 



Mr. Miller. As I said, it is not always figured on the net receipts. 
Sometimes the contract is made on a guaranty. 

Representative Carter. I mean the net receipts to your associa- 

Mr. Miller. Tiiat is right ; I understand you now. 

Representative Carter. Have you received any emolument or pay 
or remuneration of any character from the association during your 
services except your salary ? 

Mr. Miller. On one occasion I received $100, which I think I 
explained while you were out. 

Representative Carter. Is that all you have received ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. You have received nothing else from the 
athletic fund except that $100 and your salary? 

Mr. Miller. That is all. 

Representative Carter. Do you know whether Mr. Friedman has 
or not ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; the record shows that he has. 

Representative Carter. Do you know whether he received any- 
thing outside of what your records show or not ? 

Mr. Miller. No, sir; I do not. 

Representative Carter. Do you know whether Mr. Warner did 
or not ? 

Mr. Miller. No, sir; I do not. 

Representative Carter. Can you tell what the aggregate receipts 
of your association have been for games and in other ways since you 
have been secretary ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; I can, from the ledger. 

Representative Carter. I mean since you were incorporated. 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. 
suiting your ledger ? 

Mr.'MiLLER. No, sir; I 
here and hunt it u]). 

Representative Carter. 

You can not give them without con- 
will have to take up the receipts column 

Now, Mr. Miller, I wish you would give a 
tabulated statement showing each check that was delivered to jou 
from each source whatsoever, foot it up, and show us what the aggre- 
gate is. 

Mr. Miller. That is, since incorporation? Yes, sir. 

(The statement furnished by Mr. Miller is as follows:) 

Statement of receipts of athletic fund. 


From whom received. 



From whom received. 


Mar. 16 

Franklin and Marsliall game- 
Atlantic City guaranty 

Harrisburg guaranty 

Seton Hall game. .." 

$21. 20 



100. 00 





523. 00 





June 6 







Sept. 21 


Oct. 1 




Franldin and Marshall game. 

$20. 00 


May 4 


University of Pennsylvania. 

Franklin and Marshall 

All right game 


Fordham game. 



State College 

100. 00 


V , P game 



Lebanon Valley 



125. 00 




Milkrsville game. . 

Susquehanna game 


June 6 



do '.:. 

Williamsport game 

842. 04 


Statement of receipts of athletic fund — Continued. 

From whom received. 




16 1 


Wyoming game 

Syracuse game 

Bucknell game 

Shippensburg game 

Frank ford guaranty 

Steelton Y. M. C. A 

Princeton game 

Susquehanna University 

University of Pennsylvania 


Waynesboro game 

Balance U. P. game 

University of Chicago game.. 
University of Minnesota 


Harvard game 

Balance on hand end of year, 
bank balance 

Balance on hand end of year, 
Northern Pacific bonds 


Mercersburg guatantv 

do : 

Trenton guaranty 

Lehigh guaranty 

Emmittsburg guaranty 

ButTalo guaranty 

Holy Cross guaranty 

Brown guaranty 


Ithaca guaranty 

Hagerstown guaranty 

AVinchester guaranty 

Balance Elmira game 

Dickinson game 

Hagerstown games 

Dickinson game 

Harrisburg Athletic Club 

Franklin and Marshall guar- 

Albright guaranty 

University of Pennsylvania.. 

Lebanon Valley 


Mercersburg game 

State game at Wilkesbarre. . . 


Syracuse game at Builalo 

Wilkesbarre game 

Annapolis guaranty 

University of Pittsliurgh. . . . 

Warbrook game at Baltimore 

Scotland Orphan School 

Allentown game 

Wayneslioro game 

Dickinson game 

Phoenixville guaranty 

St. Louis L^niversity 

Nebraska and Denver game. 

University of Pennsylvania 
game ." 

University of Minnesota 

Balance on hand end of year. 
Balance, Reading bonds" 


(Including some of the 
Northern Pacific bonds.) 

Harvard game 

Balance, Harvard game 

University of Pennsylvania 

basket ball 

Boston Athletic Association. 


S88. 85 

2, 188. 40 



150. 00 

125. 00 

9, 25:3. 35 


0, 260. 03 




7, 507. 50 

28, 000. 00 

42, 503. 96 





05. 00 

100. 00 

100. 00 


200. 00 






174. 62 





100. 00 


154. 85 




2, 462. 50 



2, 161. 60 

200. 00 



28. 16 


100. 00 


2, 500. 00 

7, 313. 43 

5, 854. 03 


26, 169. 91 

7, 854. 78 




Feb. 19 

Mar. 1 













June 1 







Sept. 18 









Nov. 1 


From whom received. 



Jan. 20 


American Sports Publishing 

Buffalo guaranty 

New Orleans guaranty 

Georgetown LTniversity 

Trenton Y. M. C. A 

Johns Hopkins LTniversity... 

F. B. Lown guaranty 

Mercersbu rg gu aranty 

Atlantic City guaranty 

Mercersburg guaranty 

Pittsburgh guaranty 

State guaranty 

Bucknell guaranty 

Harrisburg Athletic Club 

Andover guaranty 

Holy Cross guaranty 

Brown guaranty 

Scotland guaranty 

State College 

Dickinson game 

Syracuse University 




Seton Hall guaranty 

Fordham guaranty 

West Point 

Hagerstown guaranty 

St. Mary's game 

Hagerstown guaranty 

Annapolis guaranty 

Mount Washington 

Millersville guaranty 

Shippensburg guaranty 

University of Pittsburgh 

Harrisburg track meet 

Myerstown guaranty 

U. P. guaranty 

Steelton Athletic Club 

Lebanon Valley game 

Villanova game 

Mercersburg game 

Bucknell game 

Pittsburgh Athletic Club 

Stage game at Wilkes-Barre. 
Syracuse game at New York. 

University of Pittsburgh 

Norristown game 

George Washington L'niver- 


Bloorasburg game 

Baltimore guaranty 

Gettysburg game 

Waynesboro game 

Gettysburg game 

Allentown guaranty 

Phoenixville guaranty 

Brown LTniversity 

University of Pennsylvania. . 
University of St. Louis 

Balance on hand end of 

(Some Reading bonds.) 

Swarthmore guaranty 

Gettysburg guaranty 

New York track guaranty . . . 
University of Pennsylvania 

Ijasket ball guaranty 

Dexter Academy 

Cornell guaranty 

Syracuse guaranty 

Mercersburg guarantee 

Franklin and Marshall 

Washington guaranty 

Mercersburg guaranty 

Columbia guaranty 

Tcwanama guararitv 











315. 70 







1, 186. 84 



106. 20 

824. 75 







100. 00 




9, 652. So 

25. 00 



60. CO 






150. CO 

30. CO 

35601— PT 11- 


Statement of receipts of athletic fund — Continued. 

From whom received. 

Shippen.sburg guaranty 

Baltimore guaranty 

New York Athletic Club 

Albright guaranty 

Lehigh game 

Sixty-fifth Regiment Ath- 
letic '\ssociation, Buft'alo. 

S warthmore game 

Stevens Institute guaranty. 

Baltimore game 

State College 


Annapolis guaranty 

Pittsburgh A . A 

Baltimore guaranty 

Easton guaranty 

Harlem E vening High School 
Stamford (Conn. ) guaranty. . 

Lebanon Vallej' 

Mercersburg guaranty 

Muhlenberg game 

Emmittsburg guaranty 

Harrisburg guaranty 

GettysbiKg guaranty 

Elverson guaranty 

University of Syracuse 

Dickinson College 



Princeton University 


Bucknell at Wilkes-Barre. . . 

Lebanon Valley 


Phoenixville guaranty 

Harrisburg Academy 

Walbrook guaranty 

Navy guaranty 

University of Virginia 

Johns Hopkins 




Berwick guaranty 

Brown University 

University of Peiinsylvania. 

Balance end of year 

National Collegiate meet 

Shippensburg Normal 

Swarthmore game 

University of Pennsylvania 

St. Johns guaranty 

Sixty-fifth regulation guar- 

Harvard Law School 

Millersville B. B. guaranty. 

Cettysbiu-g guaranty 

Mercersburg guaranty 

York Y. M. C. A 

Shippensburg game 

Canton guaranty 

Oswego guaranty 

Rochester guaranty 

Buffalo guaranty 

Columbia game 

Crescent game 

Johns Hopkins game 

Alliright guaranty 

EmmittslMirg guaranty 

Philadt^lphia marathon 

Bethlehem guaranty 

Johns Hopkins 

Harvard game 

The Evening Mail 

Steven's guaranty 


$6. 16 


100. 00 



2, 028. 75 




598. 00 





125. 00 

150. 00 

550. 00 

840. 13 

924. 75 

102. 70 



3, 609. 59 



45.00 I 
















May 31 
June 2 
Sept. 23 
Oct. 1 

Jan 1 



Feb. 12 

Mar. 4 

Apr. 2 



May 10 





June 3 

Aug. 21 

Sept. 23 


Oct. 1 




From whom received. 

Mount Washington guaranty 

Swarthmore guaranty 

Lebanon Valley game . ^ . . . 

Muhlenburg game 

Dickinson game 

Mercersburg game 

Bloomsburg guaranty 

Lebanon Valley 

Georgeto^Ti University 

LTniversity of Pittsburgh . . 


Mount AVashington game. . 

Scotland game 

Syracuse LTniversity 

Johns Hopkins 

Wilkes-Barre game 

Youngsto\\ii Athletic Club.. 

Scotland guaranty 


Berwick guaranty 

Middletown guaranty 

Harvard game 

Balance at end of year 

University of Pennsylvania 
game ." 

Brown LTniversity 

Sixty-fifth Regiment Ath- 
letic Association 

LTniversity of Pennsylvania 

Swarthmore guaranty 

Baltimore guaranty 

Boston Athletic .Association.. 

Seventy-first Regiment 

Washington track guaranty.. 

Pittsburgh Athletic Associa- 

Lehigh lacrosse 

Johns Hopkins 

Mail and Express guaranty.. 

John C. Gilpin guaranty 

Swarthmore gxiarantv 

Brookl\Ti -Vthletic Club 

Lafayette guaranty 

Mount Washington guaranty 

Newark race 

Albright game 

Lebanon Valley game 


Villanova game 

Washington and Jefferson. . . 


Harrisburg giiaranty 

Syracuse University 

LTniversity of Pittsburgh 

Bloomsburg Normal 

G eorgeto\\Ti University 

Myerstowai game 

Syracuse University 

Toronto game 

Lebanon \'alley 

New Cumberland 

Latrobe game 

Lehigh University 

Wilkes-Barre gartie 

Springfield Y. M. C. A 

Mount Washington guaranty 

Berwick giiaranty 

Holmesburg guaranty 

W est Point guaranty 

Dickinson game " 

Middletown guaranty 

University of Penns.ylvania.. 

Balance on hand at end of 


Statement of receipts of athletic fund — Continued. 



Jan. 6 

Feb. 17 

Mar. 1.3 


Apr. 21 

May 5 





June 2 

Sept. 27 

Oct. 3 







Nov. 9 



From whom received. 

University of Pennsylvania 

basket liall game . " 

Brown Unixersity 

Johns Hopkins 

BufiFalo guaranty 

Washington guaranty 

South Bethlehem guaranty. 

Johns Hopkins 



Crescent Athletic Club 


Jfonnt Washington 

West Virginia game 

Mercersburg guaranty 

Waynesburg guaranty 

Albright guaranty , 

Cornell University , 

University of Pittsburgh. . . , 

Perm Military Academy 

Lehigh game , 

Hilman Academy 

Johns Hopkins 

Georgeto\\-n University , 


S65. 00 









143. 00 


138. 00 

108. 75 












Nov. 17 

From whom received. 


Jan. 17 
Feb. 6 

Dartmouth game 

Lebanon Valley 


Holmesburg Athletic Club.. 
St. Bountevouse College. . . . 

Muhlenburg College 

Bloomsburg Normal 

Syracuse University 

Liniversity of Pennsylvania. 

Balance in bank end of year 
Certificate of deposit 


Brown University 

Philadelphia guaranty 

Balance in bank end of Jan- 

Certificates of deposit 



237. 56 



10, 144. 83 

25, 144. 83 

Representative Carter. What is the largest sum 3-011 have ever 
received from a game ? 

The Chairman. Start with the date of this book. 

Representative Carter. All ri^^^t. Go back to 1907 then. What 
is the largest receipts you have ever had in one game ? 

Mr. Miller. I do not recall the amount. If I dare refer to these 
memoranda i have prepared, between S16,000 and SI 7,000. 

Representative Carter. When was that? You know what year it 
was, don't 3"ou ? 

Mr. Miller. No; I don't recall the year. 

The Chairman. His statement will show that. 

Mr. Miller. It was during Maj. Mercer's administration, that 
game with Chicago. 

Representative Stephens. What year did he go out ? 

Mr. Miller. Here it is; December 9, 1907, 816,960.25. 

Representative Carter. Can you tell us without having to go 
through the books there about wdiat the profit was ? 

Mr. Miller. That is the net. The total receipts that year, as I 
remember, were about 840,000 or $45,000. 

Representative Carter. What were your running expenses that 
year ? 

Mr. Miller. I could not tell you that without going over the 
accounts. That was the year, I believe, that the money was invested 
in bonds — Northern Pacific bonds and Reading bonds; 28 Northern 
Pacific bonds and 12 Reading; that would have been $30,000, count- 
ing them at par. They were bought somewhat below par. 

Representative Carter. And the association still owns them? 

Mr. Miller. They have all been sold at a profit. 

Representative Carter. What w\as done with the proceeds? 

Mr. Miller. Turned back into the treasury at a profit of $1,100 
on the Northern Pacific and S488 on the Reading. 

Representative Carter. Turned back into the association, and 
paid out in tlie regular course of business? 


Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; as accounted for by the ledger. These 
statements that I have fastened to the ledger here are a record of 
the purchases, etc. 

Representative Carter. You can tell about what your running 
expenses are each year, can you, on an average ? 

Mr. ]\Iiller. No; I would not even like to approximate it. 

Representative Carter. What are the assets of the association now ? 

Mr. Miller. At tlie present thvc there is $15,000 invested at 3 
per cent, and the balance in bank is $10,144.83. 

Representative Carter. So it would look as if the association had 
not been conducted at a profit since those bonds were disposed of? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; always at a profit, but the money has been 
invested in buildings on the grounds. 

Representative Carter. That money belongs to the association ? 
By that you mean that each man that is a member of the association — ■ 
students, teachers, and all — has an equal share? 

Mr. Miller. That is a question ] can not answer. 

Representative Carter. Who does it belong to? Can you say? 

Mr. Miller. No, sir; I can not. 

Representative Carter. All you know is you have a right to pay 
it out on the order of Mr. Friedman ? 

Mr. Miller. When the check is countersigned by Mr, Warner. 
I have asked myself the question, In case the school and the associa- 
tion were closed up what would become of the funds ? 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact, it is earned by the pupils in 
the school? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And it is and ought to be part of the funds avail- 
able for the conduct of this schccl; ought it not, and accounted for 
by Government officers? 

Mr. Miller. I believe that is one of the requirements, and yet in 
the case of West Point and Amiapolis, is it done? 

Representative Carter. Now, when you make this statement, 
Mr. Miller, I would like for you to make it show the balan.ce at the 
end of each year. 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. You mean the calendar year? At the 
end of December of each yeur? 

Representative Carter. That is the end of your season practically, 
is it not? 

Mr. Miller. Yes. 

Representative Carter. I would like for it to show specifically 
what was received from each game, the date the game was played, 
and the balance at the end of each year, and I would like for you to 
distinguish particularly between the disposition made of the funds 
and the way they were handled prior to and since incorporation. 

Mr. Miller. There has been no difference in the method of hand- 
ling. This book begin.s in 1907, and the method of accounting for 
the money has been the same throughout. 

Representative Carter. Mr. Miller, have you any other business, 
except secretary of the association ? 

Mr. Miller. Surely; that is a smrdl ])art of my work. 

Representative Carter. Wliat business are you in? 

Mr. Miller. I am financial clerk, and have charge of between 700 
and 800 individual Indian accounts. 


RepreseTitative Carter. Finr.ncial clerk for the institution here? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. Wliat sahiry do you draw? 

Mr. Miller. $1,000 a year. 

Representative Carter. Your total salary then is $1,420? 

Mr. Miller. Yes. 

Representative Carter. You say that after each game a check is 
turned over to you for the recei])ts of the game ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. Wliat is that check the result of? 

Mr. Miller. It is the result of the game. 

Representative Carter. Of the recei])ts of the game? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. After the expenses are paid? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. After the boys' railroad fare is paid ? 

Mr. Miller. No; those expenses go on the other side of the col- 
umn. I take up invariably the amount of the check I receive, and 
then disburse by check on the other side. 

Representative Carter. Now, what I want to get at is exactly 
what the check means that is handed to you; just what expenses 
come out of the receipts of that game before the check reaches you. 

Mr. Miller. That is what I was trying to tell you. In some 
cases the check we get is figured with the receipts all taken in, and 
we get a percentage of the gate receipts. In some cases it is figured 
on the gross receipts, and in other cases it is a guaranty. Now, we 
have a game; the contract would read a guari:nty of one, two, or 
three thousand dollars, or a certain per cent of the receipts. If the 
weather was bad and the receipts would not amount to more than 
the guaranty we would take the guaranty. 

Representative Carter. You do not alwavs then divide the receipts 
of the game upon a percentage basis with other teams? 

Mr. Miller. No, sir. 

Representative Carter. Now, then, who makes the settlement at 
the gate ? 

Mr. Miller. I have done so in a couple of instances. Well, of 
course, I have charge of the gate receipts here, which do not amount 
to very much, and I have had charge of two or three games away from 
home — one at Wilkes-Barre and one at Ha,rrisburg. 

Representative Carter. Did you get a percentage of the receipts 
there or have a guaranty ? 

Mr. Miller. At Wilkes-Barre you will find the ledger is credited 
with the total amount that we took in and then there is a check 
drawn in my favor for the total amount of the expenses. 

Representative (-arter. You got all the money that was taken in 
and expenses in addition ? 

Mr. Miller. No; VvC got all the money that was taken in, having 
charge of the gate receipts; but then we paid out the expenses and 
gave the other team a guaranty, I think, of $500. 

Representative Carter. How about the other game? 

Mr. Miller. The other game at Harrisburg was the same way. 

Representative Carter. Now, the check you got ought to corre- 
spond with the amount as ])er th'^ agreement made and given by the 
opposing football association ? 


Mr. Miller. I would change that b;,' saying it should agree with 
the statement rendered. 

Senator Lane. Who are "iheyV 

Mr. Miller. The team we play. 

Senator Lane. Does the man who takes in tiie receipts turn those 
over to you? 

Mr. Miller. No; the team has a committee that has charge of the 
game; and then there is a statement made to accompany the check. 
Those statements I have on fde wherever they were given to me. 

Senator Lane. Who guarantees to you that the amount turned 
over to you is the amount actually collected at the gate ? 

Mr. Miller. Those statements are always signed by some repre- 
sentative of the team. 

Senator Lane. I know; but who does the actual work? Who 
handles the money lief ore you get the check? 

Mr. Miller. Tlie teams who have charge of the gates. 

Senator Lane. They appoint a delegate from each team ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes; but Carlisle is not always represented. You see, 
usually the team that we play has charge of the gates, because they 
usually own the field. 

Senator Lane. Do you have somebody sitting in with them? 

Mr. Miller. Not very often. 

Senator Lane. That is a matter of honor, and it is all straight, is it ? 

Mr. Miller. So far as I know. 

Representative Carter. It may be true that you do not have 
some one sitting in when you are playing under a guarantee, but when 
you are playing for a percentage of receipts don't you have somebody ? 

Mr. Miller. The contract usually reads that the team shall have 
charge of the gate. 

Representative Carter. Then the fellow authorized by the other 
team to do so turns over to Mr. Warner a check, and that check is 
delivered to you ? 

Mr. Miller. That is it. 

Representative Carter. So that the feUow who had charge of the 
opposing team has a record that mil correspond to the check that 
you get ? 

Mr. Miller. Certainly he has. 

Representative Carter. There is no doubt about that at all, is 
there ? 

Mr. Miller. I could not see where there could be. 

Senator Lane. 1 do not understand when you are taking in $18,000, 
$19,000, or $20,000, if it is in the interest of both teams, why both 
teams do not have representatives to sit there and watch the collec- 
tion of the money. Wliy did you incorporate — or has that been 
asked ? Wliy was it found necessary for this school to form a corpo- 
ration, an inside administrative affair, for these football games, which 
are a school institution ? 

Mr. Miller. I can not answer that. 

Senator Lane. That corporation is an outside, independent con- 
cern from this school, is it not ? 

Mr. Miller. Entirely. 

Senator Lane. And n(>t a Government affair? 

Mr. Miller. No. 


Senator Lane. Do you account to the Government for all these 
things ? 

Mr. Miller. Not a single thing. 

Senator Lane. There is no report made of this to the Government ? 

Mr. Miller. No, sir. 

Senator Lane. Has any ever been asked ? 

Mr. Miller. No, sir. 

Senator Lane. Has it been investigated or inquired into by any 
representative of the Government ? 

Mr. Miller. Not until Mr. Linnen looked into it, unless Mr. Mc- 
Conihe looked into it when he was here. 

Senator Lane. You would have known it if he had checked your 
books, wouldn't you? 

Mr. Miller. I do not know 

Senator Lane. Not for many years, then ? 

Mr. Miller. Not for six or eight years, no. 

Senator Lane. Your other reports for school funds and for appro- 
priations you make an accounting of and full statements? 

Mr. Miller. No ; that is handled by another clerk. 

Senator Lane. You are not the general clerk then ? 

Mr. Miller. I just have charge of the individual Indian accounts. 

Senator Lane. How much money have you in individual Indian 
accounts in the aggregate ? 

Mr. Miller. About S30,000. 

Senator Lane. How many accounts have you ? 

Mr. Miller. Approximately 700; between 700 and 800. 

Senator Lane. Do 3^ou issue each Indian a statement once in a 
while ? 

Mr. Miller. He has a little book, just the same as you and I have. 
The money is deposited to the individual credit of the pupil in the 
bank, and disbursed by a check that I \viite and the pupil signs, 
countersigned by the superintendent. 

Representative Stephens. Who is president of the corporation ? 

Mr. Miller. Mr. Warner, the physical director of the school. 

Representative Stephens. I am askmg about the corporation. 
You nave a charter, and that charter requires the election of a presi- 
dent and vice president, does it not ? 

Mr. Miller. No; just a president, and a secretary and treasurer. 

Representative Stephens. What is the stock authorized by the 

Mr. Miller. There is no stock. 

Representative Stephens. What is the object of the charter then? 
Can you give us a copy of the charter ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; I have the original charter. 

Senator Lane. This corporation then has it in its power to take 
that money and invest it in any way outside of the school ? 

Mr. Miller. I do not know. 

Senator Lane. There are no restrictions placed upon you, are there, 
as to the disposition of the money ? 

Representative Stephens. We can not tell Avithout the charter 
and the by-laws. 



The witness was duly sworn by the chau-man. 

The Chairman. Are you connected with this school? 

Mr. Gray. Yes, sir; I am the fanner. 

The Chairman. How long have you been serving in that con- 
nection ? 

Mr. Gray. As farmer about eight years next spring. 

The Chairman. Wliat are your duties, and how are they defined ? 

Mr. Gray. My duties are to attend strictly to my own farm, as a 
rule, but I am required oftentimes to go over on the other farm and 

The Chairman. How many farms are there ? 

Mr. Gray. Two. 

The Chairman. Where are they located with reference to this 
school ? 

Mr. Gray. The farm that I am on is just northeast of the school 
about three-fourths of a mile, and the other is just down here south- 
east of the school. 

The Chairman. How many acres ? 

Mr. Gray. The campus takes up part of the farm. There is sup- 
posed to be 199 acres. 

The Chairman. How many acres in the farm then exclusive of 

Mr. Gray. 176 acres. 

The Chairman. What is the character of the land ? 

Mr. Gray. It is limestone land. It is not very fertile; it has been 
farmed pretty hard. 

The Chairman. Do you know how long it has been under cultiva- 
tion, Mr. Gray ? 

Mr. Gray. Yes, sir; it has been under cultivation for a great many 

The Chairman. How long have you had charge of it? 

Mr. Gray. Eight years. 

The Chairman. Do you do anything to build up the land? 

Mr. Gray. We get very little barnyard manure, and we have to 
depend largely, almost altogether, on commercial fertilizer, and we 
do not get as much of that as we should have. 

The Chairman. What crops did you grow last year ? 

Mr. Gray. We had corn, oats, potatoes 

The Chairman. How many acres of each, approximately? 

Mr. Gray. Corn, last year we had 29 acres. 

The Chairman. How much did you grow? 

Mr. Gray. One thousand five hundred and sixty-seven bushels. 

The Chairman. What was done with that corn? 

Mr. Gray. That was all used here at the school. Wliat has not 
been used is down at the farm in the crib. 

The Chairman. How is it used ? 

Mr. Gray. Fed to the horses and stock. 

The Chairman. How many horses are there on the farm ? 

Mr. Gray. I have eight head of horses and mules on the farm. 

The CHi^.iKMAN. Ili>w many acres of wdieat did you have in? 

Mr. Gray. I had 48 acres of wheat in last year. 

The Chairman. How much of that did you grow? 


Mr. Gray. I had 973 bushels. 

The Chairman. What was done with that ? 

Mr. Gray. There was six hundred and some bushels of that sold. 
I kept 150 bushels for seed, and the rest of the 100 that I did not use 
for seed was used for chicken feed, and the rest of that was used to 
pay the man that threshed the wheat. He took wheat for his pay. 

The Chairman. How many acres of oats did you have? 

]Mi-. Gray. We had 21^ acres last year. 

The Chairman. How many bushels of oats did you grow? 

^Ir. Gray. Seven hundred and ten bushels, I believe. 

The Chairman. How much potatoes? 

Mr. Gray. One thousand one hundred and eighty-nine bushels. 

Senator Lane. How many acres ? 

Ml'. Gray. It was between 10 and 12 acres — about 11. 

Senator Lane. And averaged 100 bushels to the acre? 

Mr. Gray. Almost; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What kind do you grow? 

IVIr. Gray. Wliy, we grow Rural New Yorker. 

The Chairman. What did you do with those potatoes? 

]VIr. Gray. They are all used up here at the school, wdth the excep- 
tion that I have 120 bushels in my cellar at the farm for seed. 

The Chairman. How many chickens have you ? 

IVIi". Gray. I carry 90 on my quarterly report. 

The Chairman. Is that the number you have? 

jVIt. Gray. I raised 195, I believe, and I killed 106 for Christmas. 

The Chairman. That is for the pupils? 

^Ir. Gray. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How do you cultivate the land under your control ? 

Mr. Gray. In regard to what do you mean ? 

The Chairman. By what labor? 

]VIi'. Gray. It is all done by the boys here at the school. 

The Chairman. How manj^ are detailed for that purpose ? 

Mr. Gray. Well, quite often there is not enough detailed to do the 
work. It depends upon what I am doing. I had a great deal of 
trouble last summer here. 

The Chairman. Do you have difficulty in getting enough help ? 

Mr. Gray. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Your idea is, I suppose, to run a kind of demonstra- 
tion farm there and show the boys how to farm ? 

Mr. Gray. That is what we are supposed to do. 

The Chairman. Are you doing much in that line ? 

Mr. Gray. Well, we try to do all we can, but we are supposed to 
raise crops at the same time. We are supposed to teach the boys, 
but we can not raise crops and teach the boys if we have to do the 
work ourselves. If we get plenty of h'dp it makes all the difference 
in the world, but when we can not get the help, and it is no use to go 
to the superintendent 

Senator Lane. Why not go to the superintendent ? 

Mr. Gray. Well, if you go to him he says to go to the disciplina- 
rian. Of course, I have been to the disciplinarian in the first place — 
the commandant, I suppose I should say. 

Senator Lane. Do you mean to imply by that that the boys are 
put on the farm as a kind of punishment ? 


Mr. Gray. They certainl}' are. If the boys are good for anything 
he is allowed to go to th<^ shops, but th'^ boys v.'e work with as a rule 
ar<' boys that have failed in the country, and we get them and work 
with them on the farm. Just as soon as we report they are good, as 
a rul.^, they are taken away from us. 

The Chairman. Then, as a matter of fact, the management here is 
making no i ffort to rv ally develop these boys into farm( rs, are they ? 

Mr. Gray. I can not S' e that th' y art. 

The Chairman. You do not understand, being in charge of that 
farm, that that is a part of the policy at all? 

Mr. Gray. They take a boy away from you when he gets an interest 
in the work, and put in there boys who have made failures in the 
country, and it looks to me that it is in the nature of a penalty for a 
boy to have to go on the farm. And the better ones would reluctantly 
go ther<'; they look at it that v/ay, too. 

The Chairman. If you had a larg<r and proper detail you think 
you could give some instructions to the boys that would encourage 
them to become farmers ? 

Mr. Gray. Now, I have been here for a good many years, and as a 
rule I do not have any trouble to get along with any of the boys as 
as long as I have the number I ask for. But when you can not get the 
number it creates a disturbance all around if you try to get as much 
work out of a few boys as you would like to get done. 

Senator Lane. How many do you think you ought to have ? 

Mr. Gray. In harvest time or time of that sort I ought to have 
down on m}" farm anywhere from 9 to 12 boys. 

Senator Lane. How many acres have you ? 

Mr. Gray. One hundred and sev<:^nty-six acres. 

The Chairman. Now, in plowing time or seeding time, how many? 

Mr. Gray. At times like that I generally like to have a boy for each 
plow. Oftentimes I take a plow myself. We have heretofore had 
only six head of horses. 

Senator Lane. How many boys do you get? 

Mr. Gray. Wliy, two, and three, and four in times of that kind. 

Senator Lane. I mean in the time of seeding. 

Mr. Gray. Seeding time it is Uke that. 

Senator Lane. What other help do you have? 

]\Ir. Gray. There is no other help. 

Senator Lane. Why do you confine your attention to corn and 
wheat when this school has hundreds of students who need vegetables ? 
Why don't you raise vegetables ? 

Mr. Gray. This farm do\\ai here always used to be a truck farm, 
and they had so much trouble getting anybody to do the work. 

Senator Lane. What kind of work? 

Mr. Gray. Hoeing. It takes considerable work. The man they 
had there did not seem to be able to manage it, so he cut it out and 
said he was going to raise the truck hereafter on this little tract down 

Senator Lane. How much have you got in truck? 

Mr. Gray. I suppose 3 or 4 acres down here that thoy can truck. 

Senator Lane. 1 mean how much do you truck? 

Mr. Gray. There is no trucking (k^ne on the farms at all. 

Senator Lane. Where do you get your garden stuff? 

Mr. Gray. Right do\vii here by the coal house. 


Senator Lane. All off of 3 or 4 or 5 acres ? 

]\lr. Gray. Yes, sir; outside of the potatoes. 

Senator Lane. The potatoes, you raised how many bushels ? 

Mr. Gray. 1,189 bushels. 

Senator Lane. That is not enough to do the school, is it? 

]Mr. Gray. No, sir. 

Senator Lane. How many should vou raise ? 

Mr. Gray. About 2,000 bushels. 

Senator Lane. It would not do it, would it ? 

]Mr. Gray. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. How man}' people have you got here ? 

Mr. Gray. I would judge 800 or 900 pupils now. During the most 
part of the 3'ear there are many of the pupils out m the country. 

Senator Lane. Carrots, cabbage, onions — how many onions do 
you raise a year ? 

I\Ii". Gray. That all comes under the florist over here. 

Senator Lane. You do not raise any of them ? 

Mi\ Gray. You could raise them. I suppose I could raise them. 

Senator Lane. And parsnips? All good to eat? 

Mr. Gray. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. How did it use to be here five or six or seven years 
ago ? Were you able to get more boys to help you ? 

Mr. Gray. Yes. 

Senator Lane. When did you drop tliis into a sort of rut here ? 

Mr. Gray. That has always been done on that farm — not on that 
farm, but they used to have a farm at ^liddlesex. 

Senator Lane. How deep can you plow your land ? 

Mr. Gray. Eight or nine inches. 

Senator Lane. Do you disk? 

Mr. Gray. I have a double-action harrow. 

Senator Lane. What is your worst pest in the way of weeds ? 

Mr. Gray. We have a little ciuack grass there, but that is just in 
spots. We have Canada tliistle, and some years we have wold carrot. 

Senator Lane. What do you do with Canada thistle ? 

Mr. Gray. We are getting rid of it. We keep' it cut oft". There 
are just a few patches. 

Senator Lane. Is it increasing? 

Mr. Gray. No; we do not aim to let it make much growth. 

Senator Lane. How long does it take to kill it out that way ? 

Mr. Gray. I judge, a long time. 

Senator Lane. A hundred years ? 

Mr. Gray. I do not know anything about that, but we d<^ not aim 
to let it do much harm. 

Senator Lane. Are the other farmers here? 

Mr. Gray. Yes. 

Senator Lane. You keep about eight horses? 

Mr. Gray. Four teams; yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. What kind (>f jx'ows do you use? 

Mr. Gray. Twelve-inch Imperial, wide beam. 

Senator Lane. What is your soil ? 

Mr. Gray. Limestone. 

Senator Lane. Some clay in it ? 

Mr. Gray. Clay soil. 

Senator Lane. When do you begin to work on it ? 


Mr. Gray. Sometimes in March. 

Senator Lane. Do you fall sow, or spring? 

Mr. Gray. Fall. 

Senator Lane. Does it winter-kill much here? 

Mr. Gray. No, sir. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. You are the second farmer ? 

Mr. Ballard. Yes. 

The Chairman. You have only been here a short time ? 

Mr. Ballard. Four months. 

The Chairman. Where did you come from ? 

Mr. Ballard. I came from Colorado down here. My home is in 
western New York. 

The Chairman. Have you had experience in work similar to that 
which you are now doing ? 

Mr. Ballard. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. For how long? 

Mr. Ballard. Practically all my life. 

The Chairman. How many acres are there in the farm you have 
charge of? 

Mr. Ballard. This campus cuts off some of it, but I believe there 
is about 85 acres. 

The Chairman. How much did you have in actual cultivation this 
last year? 

Mr. Ballard. Very little of it. The north side is in pasture. I 
should say about 75 to 80 acres. 

The Chairman. How much of it is in actual cultivation ? 

Mr. Ballard. Eleven acres of alfalfa, about 7 or 8 acres is seeded 
down to clover and timothy mixed, I think — clover anyhow. 

The Chairman. Who preceded you in charge of this farm? 

Mr. Ballard. Mr. Snyder. 

The Chairman. 'When did he leave? 

Mr. Ballard. He left the day I came. 

The Chairman. How many head of stock have you there ? 

Mr. Ballard. Two mules and three horses. 

The Chairman. Any cows. 

Mr. Ballard. The dairyman has charge of those. 

The Chairman. Are they on your farm? 

Mr. Ballard. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How many cows are there there? 

Mr. Ballard. Forty-odd head. 

The Chairman. Have you any chickens on your farm ? 

Mr. Ballard. No, sir. 

The Chairman. How many hogs and pigs? 

Mr. Ballard. One hundred and twelve. That varies greatly. 

The Chairman. What has been done with those hogs? Have any 
of them been sold since you were here ? 

Mr. Ballard. I killed 5 yesterday, and some in December; the 
29th of December, I beheve,"! kiUed"2. 

The Chairman. What was done with the meat from those 7 hogs? 
Used at the school ? 



Mr. Ballard. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How many have been sold since you have been 
here ? 

Mr. Ballard. Ninety-seven. 

The Chairman. The policy of the administration then is not to 
use the meat products raised on the farm but to sell them in the 
market ? 

Mr. Ballard. Since I have been here. 

The Chairman. Have j^ou been informed as to why that is so ? 

Mr. Ballard. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Who has supervision or control of your operations ? 

Mr. Ballard. The quartermaster, Mr. Kensler. 

The Chairman. Have you and he agreed upon a plan of procedure 
for tliis year? 

Mr. Ballard. He told me I was running the farm. 

The Chairman. Have you agreed what you were going to do this 

Mr. Ballard. Myself; that is all. 

The Chairman. He leaves that to you ? 

Mr. Ballard. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What are you going to do ? What are your plans 
generally ? 

Mr. Ballard. My plans have been to keep it on the lines that it 
was. Mr. Friedman told me the man that had been here before me, 
his work had been very satisfactory, and he \\'ished me to keep it on 
the same Hues and not go into anything that he had not done ? 

The Chairman. What is that? 

Mr. Ballard. They filled the silo, and raised, with the exception 
of 9 acres, all potatoes, and the balance of the farm is for the dairy 
and these horses, vdih. the exception of a few acres of pasture for the 

The Chairman. Don't you think it would be a good plan to make 
a practical demonstration farm out of that and teach some of these 
boys, especially those who have a disposition to learn it, how to 
farm ? 

Mr. Ballard. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact, most of these boys are hired 
out into the country on farms, are they not? 

Mr. Ballard. I don't know how manv; I know there is some. 

Tile Chairman. Don't vou think it would be for the better inter- 
ests of the boys to keep them here at the school and teach them how 
to farm? Don't you think that is better than hiring them out for 
small salaries ? 

Mr. Ballard. As far as that was possible. I don't know how 
many would wish to stay. I think it is the best thing for the boys. 

The Chairman. How large is your salary ? 

Mr. Ballard. $00 a month. 

The Chairman. What does the other farmer get ? 

Mr. Ballard. I think he gets $(55. 

The Chairman. They are paying here, then, in salaries to farmers 
about $125 a month and there is practically no demonstration work 
being done? Is not that true? 

Mr. Ballard. I try to show my detail 

The Chairman. What does your detail consist of ? 


Mr. Ballard. Usually about four boys — that is, four in the morn- 
ing and four in the afternoon. 

The Chairman. Why Avould it not be a good plan to put enough 
of this land in your charge in vegetables, and especially potatoes and 
crops of that sort, to supply every demand of the school for that char- 
acter of food ? 

Mr. Ballard. I do not think this is good potato land. Their yield 
seems to be about 100 bushels to an acre, which they consider a good 
yield. In a potato country I should consider 200 a fan* yield. 

The Chairman. You think it would not be profitable, then, to 
cultivate land in ])otatoe3 that wo; Id not grow more than 100 bush- 
els to the acre? What do thev pav for potatoes here when they buy 

Mr. Ballard. I think the retail price is about $1. 

Senator Lane. At $1 a bushel for potatoes and 100 bushels to the 
acre would pay first rate, wouldn't it? 

Mr. Ballard. Potatoes is rather expensive to raise. 

The Chairman. Have you investigated to find out the total yield 
of that arm last year — the value of the total product of the farm 
you have charge of ? 

Mr. Ballard. No, sir. They put 12 acres in potatoes 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact, those 12 acres of potatoes 
yielded more in value than all the rest of the farm? 

Mr. Ballard. They did not get 100 bushels to the acre. 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact, did not those 12 acres of 
potatoes yield a greater value than all the rest of the stuff grown on 
the farm ? 

Mr. Ballard. I would not go so far as that. It would compare 
favorably with them. 

Tiie Chairman. There would be no difficulty in cultivating these 
fanns with skilled labor under your supervision? 

Mr. Ballard. No, su\ 

Tiie Chairman. You could cultivate an area greatly m excess of the 
area under your charge, with skilled labor, if you had the opportu- 
nity of doing it ? 

Mr. Ballard. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And you could cultivate it in any ordinary crops 
that would grow in this climate ? 

Mr. Ballard. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Now, what I do not understand is why a man who 
is in the business of farming does not grasp the idea, without even a 
suggestion, that if his services are to be valuable to the school he 
ought to plan first; that the work that is done on the farm ought to 
be for the instruction of the pupils, and that the crops that are grown 
there ought to be for the use and benefit of the school. I can not 
understand the system that seems to prevail of working these lands 
indifferently and of discouraging rather than encouraging the produc- 
tion of such food stuffs as may be required. 

Mr. Ballard. I think the farmers are ready to do this at any thne. 

Th(> Chairman. If you were an expert farmer liere for the purpose 
of teaching farming, don't you think you ought to plan out just what 
crops you can grow IIktc, how much labor it is gohig to require to do 
it, and what instruction may be given to the boys who are in the 


school? You say you have ah-eady been instructed to pursue the 
Hnes followed by your predecessor ? 

Mr. Ballard. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. Have you ever gone to the superintendent and sug- 
gested to hini that you could get more return for the land if you were 
allowed to plant other crops ? 

Ml". Ballard. No, su\ 

Senator Lane. Have you an idea that if you were left with your 
hands free you could take the lands you are using now and get a greater 
return ? 

Mr. Ballard. I might hi a way, but you see there is that dairy. 
That takes practically the whole farm. 

Senator Lane. How much milk do you get ? 

Mr. Ballard. I could not tell you. 

Senator Lane. How many boys do you use ? 

Mr. Ballard. I have iiothmg to do with the dairy. 

Senator Lane. How much land does the dairy take from you ? 

Mi\ Ballard. With the exception of those 1 1 acres that they have 
in potatoes, the balance is all devoted to the dairy. 

Senator Lane. And you are really cultivating 11 acres of land? 

Mr. Ballard. There are 1 1 acres of land devoted to potatoes, and 
the balance is devoted to the dauy. 

Senator Lane. How much is that? 

Ml'. Ballard. Thirty acres, I think. 

Senator Lane. What do you make ensilage out of ? 

Mi\ Ballard. It was made out of corn; that was before I came. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. How long have you been dairyman of the CarHsle 
School ? 

Ml'. Ryan. Smce the 29th of September of this year. 

The Chairman. Whom did you succeed ? 

Mr. Ryan. I succeeded a boy who was there. Mr. Hardin was 
supposed to oversee it, but that boy was put in there to oversee it. 

The Chairman. Where are you from ? 

Mr. Ryan. I am from Rajnd City, S. Dak. 

The Chairman. You were transferred here ? 

Mr. Ryan. No; I was neyer in the service; I just took an exami- 

The Chairman. Wlien did you reach here ? 

Mr. Ryan. About the 27th. I think it was a Sunday morning. 
I went to work Tuesday morning. 

The Chairman. Did you have any misunderstanding with the 
superintendent upon your arrival here or any controversy? 

Mr. Ryan. Shortly after, I did. 

The Chairman. TeU us about it. 

Mr. Ryan. I went to work Tuesday morning. Tluirsday he came 
down and said I was not getting results from the cows. That was 
three days afterwards. I told him I did not think I had had a chance 
yet, as 1 had only been there three days. "Well," he said, "the 
cows are going dry." "Well," I said, "they were pretty dried up 


when I came." He told me I would have to get better results, and he 
would give me four days to do it in. 

The Chairman. How many did he detail to help you to take the 
milk ? 

Mr. Ryan. I was supposed to have five. 

The Chairman. Did you have them ? 

Mr. Ryan. I had them at the start, but they kept dropping off. 
Some was put in the lockup, some ran away, some was drunk. I 
generally got down to about three. 

The Chairman. Were the l^oys that were required to do the work 
under you — was that in the nature of disciphne or punishment to 
them % 

Mr. Ryan. It seemed to be in the nature of punishment. 

The Chairman. It was not done, then, to instruct them or en- 
courage them in dairying or anything of that sort ? 

Mr. Ryan. No. I heard the boys teU what they did to be pun- 
ished. Some was drunk, and some ran away, and some would not 
work at the school. 

The Chairman. How many cows have you in the dairy ? 

Mr. Ryan. We h.ave 48 cows and one heifer. 

The Chairman. What do you do ^^dth the milk ? 

Mr. Ryan. Thei-e is about 6 gallons or 10 gallons a day comes 
down to the school, whole milk : and we separate the other, save the 
cream, and send the skimmed milk down to the kitchen. 

The Chairman. Is that milk that is obtained in the dairy used at 
the school ? 

Mr. Ryan. Yes, sir; as far as I know. 

Senator Lane. How many cows do you milk? 

Mr. Ryan. We are milking 32 now. 

Senator Lane. How mucli milk do you get a day ? 

Mr. Ryan. We get about 40 gallons a day. 

Senator Lane, is that the average % 

Mr. Ryan. Yes — no; that is not all the milk — that is the skimmed 
milk. We get about 50 to 55 gallons average, the milk I' send to the 
school and the other milk, too. 

Senator Lane. What kind of cows are you milking? 

Mr. Ryan. All kinds mixed up. Some are Durhams, some Here- 
fords, some Holsteins, and some Jerseys. 

Representative Carter. What kind of bull have you got ? 

Mr. Ryan. A little bull, a yearling. 

Representative Carter. What kind ? 

Mr. Ryan. A Holstein. We had an old Jersey bull before that, 
but they are a very poor class of cows. Some have two teats and 
some have three teats. 

Senator Lane. Have you any garget among them? 

Mr. Ryan. Yes. You mean that thick milk ? 

Senator Lane. Yes. 

Mr. Ryan. Once in a while, some of it. I aim to get it out. 

S;>nator Lane. What do you do with your calves ? 

Mr. Ryan. We butcher them or save some. 

Senator Lane. How did you make out in the five days ? Did the 
cows come up on the milk ? 

Mr. Ryan. No; our feed we had was very poor. 

Senator Lane. What was it ? 


Mr. Ryan. It was oat straw, we had then, the oats cut when it was 
ripe. And we had some alfalfa. But they told us to feed that oats 
hay, and then the ensilage was very poor at that time. 

Senator Lane. Di^l you chop jour hay? 

^h\ Ryan. No. 

Senator Lane. What kind of barn have you got? 

Mr. Ryan. A good barn. 

Senator Lane. Good drahiage? 

Mr. Ryan. Yes. 

Senator Lane. Have you any tuberculosis in the herd? 

Mr. Ryan. Not that 1 know of. 

Senator Lane. Have they ever been tested ? 

Mr. Ryan. Not since I have known them. 

Senator Lane. Do you keep a record of your milk ? 

Mr. Ryan. Yes. 

Senator Lane. Do you keep a separate record of each cow? 

Mr. Ryan. We did, back awhile, but the boys got to tearing up 
the sheets. I had a lot of boys that I could not do anything with. 
I got discouraged, and I could not do anything with them. 

Senator Lane. So you are not keeping a record now ? 

Mr. Ryan. Not of separate cows now. 

Representative vStephens. Have you ever asked for better boys ? 

Mr. Ryan. Yes, sir; a good many times. 

Representative Stephens. What do they tell you? 

Mr. Ryan. They say, ''All right; we will attend to it." 

Representative Stephens. How do they attendto it? 

Mr. Ryan. The}^ send the same boy over again, or somebody worse, 
if anything. 

Representative Stephens. You say the boys get drunk? 

Mr. Ryan. Yes. 

Representative Stephens. Have you any idea where they get the 
whisky ? 

Mr. Ryan. Some times right in the saloons. 

Representative Stephens. Have you ever seen them go into the 
saloon yourself ? 

Mr. Ryan. No, sir; only what the boys tell me. One boy told me 
he went into a saloon. 

Representative Stephens. When they work in your dairy do they 
work with the school uniform on or citizen's clothes ? 

Mr. Ryan. The school uniform part of the time. They wear white 
clothes when they milk. 

Representative Stephens. Where do you make your butter? 

Mr. Ryan. Right there in the millc house adjoining the barn. 

Representative Stephens. What do ycu do with the butter you 
make ? 

Mr. Ryan. We send it to the school. 

Representative Stephens. Who gets it in the school here ? 

Mr. Ryan. I deliver it to the quartermaster. 

Representntive Stephens. And the quartermaster then distributes 

Mr. Ryan. Yes; they generally take it right to the kitchen. 

Representative Stephens. How much land have you got to run 
these cows on ? 

35601— PT 11—14 13 


Mr. Ryan. I do not have any land; I just run the cows, but I get 
the products from both farms. I get the corn fodder and the oats, 
and hay, etc. 

Representative Stephens. Do they have any green meadow to 
run on ? 

Mr. Ryan. Reguhir pasturage ? Yes. 

Representative Stephens. How Lirge ? 

Mr. Ryan. I judge about 10 or 12 acres, or something lik? that. 

Representative Carter. What is the meadow ? 

Mr. Ryan. It is a pasturage where wild grass grows; wild native 

Representative Carter. Twelve acres is not enough of this native 
grass for 40 cows, is it ? 

Mr. Ryan. No. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. Doctor, your name was handed me by Mi-. Wetzel, 
with those of a number of other gentlemen. He informed me that 
you were famiUar with some of the conditions prevailing in the 
Carlisle school and an intimate friend of the superintendent. 

You are the president of Dickinson College ? 

Dr. Noble. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How long have you been at the head of that 
institution. Doctor? 

Dr. Noble. Three years. 

The Chairman. Are you a native of Pennsylvania ? 

Dr. Noble. I am not. 

The Chairman. What State are you from ? 

Dr. Noble. New York State. * 

The Chairman. Have you been connected with school work the 
greater part of your mature life ? 

Dr. Noble. Yes. 

The Chairman. Wliere else have you been ? 

Dr. Noble. Tlie Women's College of Baltimore, president of the 
Women's College of Baltimore. 

The Chairman. You are acc^uainted with Supt. Friedman, are 

Dr. Noble. Not in the way you represented a few moments ago. 

The Chairman. Your name was handed to me, with those of 
three or four other parties on this list — Dr. Allen, and Mr. J. W. 
Henderson, and the Rev. Mr. Diffenderfer — by Mr. Wetzel, an 
attorney whom I chanced to meet this morning, who stated they 
would be glad to appear before the commission to make a statement, 
and we said we would be glad to have you come. 

Dr. Noble. That is what I understand, and it is a voluntary 
statement on the part of these gentlemen who come. They have 
not been invited by the commission to come and offer testimony 
concerning certain specific things. 

Representative Carter. How does the commission know that you 
know those things ? 

Dr. Noble. I am not sure that I do. 

Representative Carter. Then why should we in\'ite you ? 


Dr. Noble. It seems to me that if you are here to get information 
there may be certain collateral things it might be well for you to 
find out about, but I would not presume to come mthout the invita- 
tion of the committee. 

The Chairman. You are invited to appear, Doctor; just consider 
that as final. We want any information you have that will throw 
any light upon the con{htions in Carlisle College, if you desire to 
submit a statement of facts that are within your knowledge as to 
that. We want all the information that we can get that is germane, 
and I had no information from Mr. Wetzel as to any particular state 
of facts about which you had knowledge. I merely understood you 
were friendly to the institution 

Dr. Noble. That is correct. 

The Chairman. And I also understood that you were a friend of 
Mr. Friedman, and that Mr. Friedman — at least that Mr. Wetzel 
thought that Mr. Friedman woidd be glad to have you here. We 
would be glad to hear any statement you may make. I do not know 
what your idea is. You say you were not iniformed you were invited 
by the commission. You were invited in that way, and you are 
invited, and we want all the information we can get. 

Dr. Noble. Mr. Wetzel called me irp and said there was no invita- 
tion from the commission. He thought it might be well for some of 
the men of the town to meet the commission and sa^^ what they 
thought about the Indian school. And, as one of the citizens of the 
town who by ^drtue of his position is regarded as })erhaps contributing 
public sentiment, I am perfectly willing to come and make such a 
statement as I can about conditions at the Indian school. I have 
read no formal charges — ■ — 

Senator Lane. Pardon me there. I don't think we understand 
one another's position. This commission was appointed b}^ Congress 
to investigate Indian affairs throughout the country. It is a joint 
commission specially delegated for that pur])Ose. 

Dr. Noble. I did not know that. 

Senator Lane. Now, as matters arise, where attention is directed 
to any particular institution, at the first opportunity that presents 
itself, at a few hours' notice, we make a trip and look into it. We 
did not know we were coming here imtil about an hour before we 
came. So we are here now to find out all we can, and if you have 
anything we want to get it from you. It is purely informal; at the 
same time it is official. You can understand perfectly well it would 
be veiy hard to send notice ahead under those circumstances. 

Representative Carter. We are here on official lousiness, making 
an investigation of the school, and we are glad to get information 
from anybody that has information to give; but we have not any way 
in the world to know whether you have information or not unless 
you tell us. 

The Chairman. Shall I interrogate you, or will you proceed to 
make a statement, Doctor ? 

Dr. Noble. You go ahead, and after you have aske;I me c^ues- 
tions I may want to make a general statement. 

The Chairman. What o})portunities have you had of observing 
the conditions and the work that is b(nng fk)ne at the Carlisle School ? 

Dr. Noble. I have been a freqiu'ut visitor here. The relations 
betwe(ni the Indian school and Dickinson College have been intimate 


since I came to Carlisle. Fundamentally those relations are athletic. 
There have been times when they were not cordial, but during the 
last three years they have been very cordial; and in order to show 
good wall, I have been here frequently as a visitor. 

The Chairman. How often do you think you have been here ? 

Dr. Noble. Oh, I should saj' — jon mean in three years? 

The Chairman. Yes, su-. 

Dr. Noble. I should say from 15 to 30 times. 

The Chairman. What has been the extent of your opportunities 
for observation, and what has, in fact, been your observation of con- 
ditions ? 

Dr. Noble. I have seen the school m their general assembly. I 
have seen the different departments of the work of the school. I 
have seen them in their dining hall. I have seen them in their 
social functions. I have seen them in their athletic contests. I 
thmk I have seen them rather generally. 

The Chairman. Wliat were the occasions of your visit ? I mean, 
what prompted jou to come ? 

Dr. Noble. The interest in athletic games, which is general, 
prompted that, of course. Then I have been asked over here to 
make addresses two or three times, and asked to participate in the 
commencement. I have come without invitation, voluntarily, in 
order to know the educational value of the work done at the Indian 
school. That has been, I think, the chief method of coming, except- 
ing when I have come on some special occasion, like then commence- 

The Chairman. What conclusions have you reachetl with refer- 
ence to the education value of the work done here? 

Dr. Noble. Of course, it must be understood by you gentlemen 
that I am not looking at the work solely as a resident of Carlisle. I 
am tryuig to estimate the education value of this kind of work. It 
is right at hand. There is a general agitation concerning vocational 
trammg and that kmd of thing, and I have been interested to see 
how it worked here. And I have come over and gone into their 
shops and seen what the boys were domg, and tried to get hold of 
the educational value of the kind of work they are doing here. 

Now, as to my knowledge of it, I think it is mighty good work. I 
thmk it is very much better work than in other institutions which 
I have visited. There is a coordination between studies and prac- 
tical work in shops that I do not find in other places. Of course, I 
do not regard conditions in any school as so ideal that they could 
not be improved, but I have approved in my own thought and in 
public speech the work of the Indian school as it is now being done. 

The Chairman. That relates to what constitutes the vocational 
training, Doctor ? 

Dr. Noble. Take your printing shop here. It has seemed to me 
that perhaps that might be a test of the mental quality of these In- 
dian boys, and I have been a good many times to see whether they 
could read manuscript, set type without too many blunders in spell- 
ing, how they could do press work, what their abilities as practical 
printers might be, but always with the thought that the printing 
was related to their educational training. 

The Chairman. What number, approximately, have you observed 
that are securing this training in printing? 


Dr. Noble. I should say there have been perhaps 15 to 20 in the 
place at the different times I was there: whether the same group of 
students, of course, I would not know. They might hare been the 
same or different ones. 

The Chairman. Have you visited other shops ? 

Dr. Noble. Yes. I have gone in the various other shops and seen 
what they were doing, but it has not seemed to me that the thing I 
was looking for was as clearly indicated as in the printing shop, but 
there has been an attitude of understanding and an air of dihgence. 
I do not know the teachers personally, so that I can not call them by 
name, but it has seemed to me — of course, I am not discriminating 
now against any teacher. It has seemed to me that the quality of 
some of the school work I have observed was very inferior. 

The Chairman. "What do you mean by the school work? 

Dr. Noble. I mean the ability of the teacher to teach. 

The Chairman. How does that compare with the capacity of the 
pupil to gi'asp, as a rule? 

Dr. Noble. Of course, that would raise a very big question. But 
it has seemed to me — sizing up teachers — as one does as a matter of 
business — that there was not quite as good a gi'ade of teaching ability. 
I do not Ivnow the teachers personally, so that I could not say that 
the teacher of this is better and the teacher of that is inferior, but I 
have not been impressed with the ability of some of the teachers in 
their teaching work at the Carlisle School. 

The Chairman. Are ^'"ou in any way interested in agriculture or 
any of the Idndred arts ? 

Dr. Noble. Yes. 

The Chairman. What do you think about what has been done 
here to teach these boys those subjects? 

Dr. Noble. I do not know enough about it to have a definite 
opinion. It is one of the things I have not investigated. 

The Chairman. You know they have two farms here ? 

Dr. Noble. Yes; I have never visited them. 

The Chairman. Have you observed the difference among the 
pupils ? 

Dr. Noble. Yes. 

The Chairman. What do you think of that? 

Dr. Noble. It seemed to me to be pretty good. Of course, I 
know school work well enough to understand there will be breaches 
of discipHne, but as I have observed the school in its social functions, 
in its athletic contests, in its shop work, and schoolroom work, it 
has seemed to me to be pretty good. 

The Chairman. Are 3^ou intimately enough acquainted with the 
conditions to know how the superintendent feels toward the pupils, 
and how they feel toward him, as a rule ? 

Dr. Noble. Well, in this particular: Every time I have heard him 
speak, either in personal relations or in public, it has seemed to me 
he had a rather high conception of his job. He has championed the 
Indian sometimes in a way I have thought was very enthusiastic. 

The Chairman. Have you received any information of \\ddespread 
hostility existing among the pupils toward him ? 

Dr. Noble. No: I knew nothing of it. 


The Chairman. You do not know that on some occasions in pub 
lie they had jeered and hissed him, and called him "Jew," and names 
of that sort ? 

Dr. Noble. I did not know until after your representative from 
the Indian Department was announced as having come to Carlisle. 
That would not be a basis for judgment with me. I think the senior 
class of La Fayette College last year walked out when President War- 
field rose to speak; but I know President Warfield as a high-minded 

The Chairman. I am asking as a matter of fact. It would not be 
a matter of judgment with me to know who was censurable, but it 
would reflect upon the conditions as they actually exist here if 
throughout the student body there was a feeling that Mr. Friedman 
was not in sympathy with them and their work, and did not encour- 
age them, and if on divers occasions he had called them "savages." 
These facts would disclose a state of feeling between the superintend- 
ent and the pupils. 

Now, I can say to you. Doctor, that it has disclosed that for many 
months there has been a condition here bordering on insurrection 
among the pupils. It has manifested itself in acts and marks of dis- 
courtesy for the superintendent, and it presents a condition that 
must be taken notice of. We are trjdng to find out, and it is a matter 
of surprise to me that one who has as much interest in the institution 
as you have should not Have known sometliing about it. 

Dr. Noble. I knew nothing until the investigator appeared. 

Representative Carter. How did you learn it after the investiga- 
tor appeared. Doctor ? 

Dr. Noble. It was told me by one of the citizens of the town that 
such a thing had occurred, and he, as I recall, gave a special reason 
for it. 

The Chairman. What was it ? 

Dr. Noble. That there was some friction in connection with the 
administration of the school. 

The Chairman. You mean among the employees ? 

Dr. Noble. Yes. 

The Chairman. Which had prompted or encouraged lax discipline ? 

Dr. Noble. So is my inference. 

The Chairman. Can you give any more definite information than 
that ? 

Dr. Noble. No; I do not know the names of the employees here, 
excepting, perhaps, two or three. I know Mr. Warner quite well. 
Then I have heard the names — I know two others. 

The Chairman. But in any event your information is not definite 
enough to go into that ? 

Dr. Noble. No. 

The Chairman. When was your last visit to the school when you 
observed the work ? 

Dr. Noble. I was here sometime in December; it must have been 
toward the end of the month. I had a visitor from somewhere out 
of Carlisle, and I brought him over to see the Indian school, and Mr. 
Friedman was not here. So I felt as if I had some rights in the prem- 
ises, and I walked around with this visitor. 

The Chairman. Did you in that way inspect the quarters occu- 
pied by the students ? 


Dr. Noble. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Have you ever been present while a meal was 
being served ? 

Dr. Noble. In the dining hall? Yes, sir; last fall. 

The Chairman. Did you know that complaints are universal that 
an insufficient quantity of food, and especially of bread, is served, 
and that those complaints have been extended over a period of sev- 
eral months ? 

Dr. Noble. I had not heard of it; but I used to be the head of a 
boarding school years ago, and such complaints at certain times of 
the year were not infrequent. 

The Chairman. From your experience, there is no reason why a 
schoolboy ought not to have all the bread he wants ? 

Dr. Noble. He ought to have all he needs. 

The Chairman. There may be good reasons for depriving him of 
other things, but not bread. I can state to you, doctor, that it ap- 
pears from the testimony of a very large number of witnesses — per- 
sons who have observed it, and pupils, and employees of tho school- 
that that condition has extended over a very long period, and the 
complaint is so widespread and uniform among the pupils as to the 
insufficient quantity of bread that there has been no conflict what- 
ever in the information that has come to us on that point, and we 
have been unable so far to ascertain why that sort of condition 
should have occurred. 

Dr. Noble. Of course, that information would come from people 
more intimately related to the school than any of us on the outside. 

The Chairman. Now, when you went around and made that — I 
^vill call it inspection, for want of a better term — what places did you 

Dr. Noble. We visited some of the rooms in the school building. 
We came over here and saw the gymnasium — this building. We 
went into some of the shops; I do not know that I could say just 
which shops. We looked around to see what the students were 
doing. I did take my friend, who was connected mth an educational 
institution, into the printing department, and asked the gentleman 
in charge — his name, I think, is Smith — if he would explain to us 
just how the students did their work, and that was about the extent 
of our visit. 

The Chairman. I want to ask you a question that is quite a gen- 
eral question, and I do not know whether you will feel like answering 
it or not. In your various visits here, and especially on the occa- 
sions that you were observing the pupils at work and study, how 
were you imjDressed with the general character of the pupils, and 
what was their conduct as a whole? Did you see evidences of dis- 
order or disquiet? 

Dr. Noble. No; I have never seen evidences of disorder. I have 
been rather favorably impressed with the behavior of the students as 
I have seen them, hero and in town at night gatherings, or at church, 
or anything of that sort. 

The Chairman. On the whole, you think the conduct of the stu- 
dents, so far as you have had an opportunit}" of observing it, has 
been commendable ? 

Dr. Noble. I have seen nothing objectionable. Senator. 


Senator Lane. This being a school for the general education for 
the Indian, and in addition to fit him for vocational work in life, if 
some sort of standard can be set as to what ought to be obtained, 
everything being considered, there ought to be, then, a certain amount 
of result obtained in that direction? 

Dr. Noble. There certainly should; but I believe that funda- 
mentally it should be a matter of instruction. I tliink the results 
should relate fundamentally to instruction. 

Senator Lane. He should receive the instruction? 

Dr. Noble. He certainly should receive the instruction. Funda- 
mentally it is a matter of instruction. I am going to say to your 
committee quite frankly that it seems to me there is a weakness here, 
I know the Indian is a peculiar educational subject, but it strikes me, 
as I look at the work of the school from my point of view, that there 
is a weakness here in the teaching of the Indian girls and boys. 

Senator Lane. And in so far as it fails therein it lacks fulfilling the 
function it should fulfill ? 

Dr. Noble. Certainly; that is what our investment is for. 

Senator Lane. Now, then, assuming that the Indian is to go out 
and become useful as a farmer, as a mechanic, as a printer, whatever 
it may be — let us take the dairy; that is a useful vocation, and it is 
profitable, too, in some parts of the country. We find, as a matter 
of fact, that the boys are not sent there to learn that part of it, but as 
a punishment, and regard themselves 

Dr. Noble. Will you just make that statement again ? You mean 
that the dairy work is not a part of the curriculum ? 

Senator Lane. No, sir; they are sent there as a punishment, if 
you please, as a penalty, for getting drunk; punished, if you please. 
Consequently they come there dissatisfied, do not like it, and then 
tear up the milk records. 

Dr. Noble. Why, gentlemen, that is surprising to me, because the 
chance for agricultural education 

Senator Lane. Now, Doctor, and to show that they did not expect 
that they ripped up the records of the dairy cows so that the milkman 
in charge is unable to keep the record of the milk product of his cows. 
That is not a proper spirit. They come, they go; no one stays there 
long enough to become proficient. As they become good workers 
they are removed and sent somewhere else. In the carpenter shop 
it is the same 

Dr. Noble. Carpentering is not a punishment? 

Senator Lane. No; but the head carpenter tells me they are taken 
away from him. 

Dr. Noble. Senator, a course that lasts a certain number of 
weeks — — 

Senator Lane. But no one ever finishes it. 

Dr. Noble. But, gentlemen, at the commencement exercises there 
is alwa3^s an ocular demonstration of the work that is done. 

The Chairman. Have you read the catalogue, Doctor ? 

Dr. Noble. Yes. 

Senator Lane. They inform mo — I have been through the shops 
this morning and they did not know who I was. I asked," Wliere is 
your finished workmen?" and they answered, "We have one or two, 
but they do not remain long enough." He said, "I could go out there 
and build their buildings for them." The tinner told me the same. 


The blacksmith is in a similar condition, and the farmer told me that 
he can not get young men to work for him that are useful to work 
anywhere else. It is all down the line, apparently told in good faith. 
I went down into the cooking department, and I found for a ration, 
and I submit it for your consideration, 5 pounds of oatmeal mush for 
100 students to eat; 5 pounds of oatmeal mixed \yith butter and 
dished out into 100 equal parts for 100 persons to use. 

Dr. Noble. And nothing else ? 

Senator Lane. Oh, 3^es; and a half pound of tea, at 20 cents a 
pound wholesale, for 100 persons to drink. 

Dr. Noble. I vrorder if this is so. Have the superintej] dents of 
this school and other Indian schools the power to employ and dismiss 
incompetent people ? 

Senator Lane. Oh, yes; if there is a complaint; anything they 
can justify. 

Dr. Noble. One of the things I was informed of within a few 
days was this, that there was no possibility of administration here 
because the superintendent 

Senator Lane. Because the superintendent did not have the 
power ? 

Dr. Noble. Uiiless he preferred charges that involved moral char- 
acter. Is there anything in that ? 

The Chairman. We are looking into that. 

Senator Lane. Here is an institution, with 600 or 700 children, 
and a farm of 300 or 400 acres, and we find as a matter of fact that 
it does not raise enough potatoes to eat — a thousand av.d some 
odd bushels for some 700 people. And they are raising wheat on 
the land. No man who does that can teach farming to anyone. 

Dr. Noble. They do not teach farming, from w^hat you say. 

Senator Lane. They could not possibly, fi'om that cojiception of 
farming. Doctor, I wish you would look into that. 

The Chairman. Now, Doctor, at this school this vocational work 
is alleged to be taught, and yet when a building is to be constructed 
or painted, when brick are to be laid, not one dollar's worth of that 
work is done by the student labor; it is all done by outside labor. 
At some of the schools we have found it our duty to visit all of that 
work is done by student labor. 

Dr. Noble. Gentlemen, you greatly surprise me. I thought most 
of tliis work being bone here was being done by the students. 

The Chairman. Our information is that none of it is done that way. 

Dr. Noble. Have you asked why? Are they not competent? 

The Chairman. We are trying to find out. People seem to assume 
it is done. 

Dr. Noble. I assumed it was done. 

The Chairman. Do you 'know anything about the moral condi- 
tions in this school? Have you looked into that? 

Dr. Noble. Yes. 

The Chairman. Do they meet with your approval on the whole? 

Dr. Noble. I think if certain people leave the Indian boys and 
girls alo]ie 

The Chairman. Do you know that a great many of the pupils are 
in the habit of getting dmnk ? 

Dr. Noble. Not a great many. 

The Chairman. Howmanv? 


Dr. Noble. I should think an insignificant number. 

Kepresentative Carter. Do you know that some of them are in 
the guardhouse almost all the time for being drunk? 

Dr. Noble. No. 

Representative Carter. Do you know that they are being arrested 
down in this city ? 

Dr. Noble. I have heard of two occasions. I heard that the 
liquor was furnished by a notoriously immoral person. 

Kepresentative Carter. Has there ])e(n any attempt made to pros- 
ecute that person ? 

Dr. Noble. I think there has been. 

Representative Carter. \\T;iat was the result of it ? 

Dr. Noble. I think the person was taken before the local court and 
got some kind of a sentence, and was out of town for a while. 

Senator Lane. Y.lien we came in here yesterday, we found seven 
boys in the lockup 

Dr. Noble. Wlio has that in charge ? 

Senator Lane (continuing). For drinking and getting drunk. 

Dr. Noble. Is there not a man here who is called the disciplinarian ? 

Senator Lane. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And there is an assistant disciplinarian. 

Dr. Noble. Of course we have to recongize, gentlemen, that there 
is a relation between all forces, good and bad, of the town and school; 
and some of the people, if they know that Indian boys have a little 
money, try to get it from them, and one of the cases that I heard of 
^eemed to me just a scheme to hold the boys up for as much money 
a s possible. That was over a year ago and it struck me as a rather 
ad reflection upon the lack of decency of certain persons of the town. 

(An informal discussion which here followed, relating to the subject 
of moral conditions in the school, was not reported.) 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. Mr. Goodyear, Congress has created a joint com- 
mission composed of members of the Senate and House to investigate 
into Indian affairs generally. In the course of our duties we have 
come to Carlisle to look into the conditions of the Carlisle Indian 
School. We are informed that you are a prominent citizen of the 
community, and if you have any information concerning it we woidd 
be glad to have such information as you can furnish. 

Mr. Goodyear. I shall certainly be very glad. 

The Chairman. By way of explanation you may tell us what your 
business is and how long you have lived in Carlisle. 

Mr. Goodyear. I have lived all my life in Carlisle, and for the past 
25 years have been engaged in the retail coal, lime, and sand lousiness. 

The Chairman. Are you in any way connected with the Indian 

Mr. Goodyear. At one time, after my graduation from the high 
school in Carlisle, for a period of five years I was employed at Carlisle 

The Chairmax. Have you had an opportunity of observing the 
work done in the school and the conditions in the school recentiv? 


Mr. Goodyear. I have boon very familiar with the school over 
since it was organized. 

The Chairman. How often have you visited it within tl e hist year 
or two, and what w^ere tiie occasions of your visits ( 

Mr. Goodyear. Perhaps two or three times a year 1 have served 
as judge in the debates of the students, attended th,tir athl tic func- 
tions, their social functions in the gymnasium, and been generally 
intimate with the whole school all my life. 

The Chairman. We will be very glad to have you give us your 
observations and conclusions as to the conditions prevailing at the 

Ml'. Goodyear. Part of the time or during the whole time? 

The Chairman. You may take your own choice about that. 

Mr. Goodyear. Briefly, under Gen. Pratt, at the time of my con- 
nection with the school, tliere was a different atmosphere than there 
is to-day, caused by Federal conditions. The first condition is that 
the class of students at the mstitution now is entirely different than 
that attending the sdiool at that time. Wlien the school was origi- 
nated, and duiing a large part of Gen. Pratt's administration, the 
Indians came in their blankets, not speaking a word of English or 
familiar witli civilized ways to any extent. Now, and for a number 
of years past, every boy and girl comes in civihzcd dress, speaking 
English, having attended schools somewhere else and familiar with 
civilized customs. So there has been a very radical change. I could 
make no comparison that would be fair, because the conditions of 
the three administrations have been so changed. Maj. Mercer's 
administration came between Gen. Pratt's and Mr. Friedman's, so 
tliere are three distinct phases I WT)uld be familiar with. If there 
is anything along other lines 

The Chairman. How does the discipline in the school at present 
conipare with that of former administrations ? 

Mr. Goodyear. Gen. Pratt's? 

The Chairman. Yes; or Mr. Mercer's, either. 

Mr. Goodyear. Well, there are three stages in the discipline of 
the school, caused by the three reasons that I told you of. In the 
first place, the Indians arriving in Gen. Pratt's time were usually 
not familiar with Enghsh and with the customs of civilized whites. 
Therefore, they had no trouble in keeping them on the school grounds, 
and they were very obedient. I know that from my personal expe- 
rience at that time. At the time of Maj. Mercer's arrival tliey had 
progressed beyond that stage considerably and atldetics had advanced 
correspondingly. Under Gen. Pratt athletics had never attained 
their present prominence, due to the student's ignorance of athletics. 
Under Maj. Mercer they progressed very rapidly. That brought 
SCA'eral influences into tlie school wdiich tended to demoralize^ a cer- 
tain amount of discipline, and more or less professionalism crept ill 
at that time. This institution suffered along vrith the rest. The 
discipline commenced to break down about that time to a certain 
extent. Then Mr. Friedman came on the scene. He recognized 
the serious injury that was done to the scJiool by the introduction 
of professionahsm into school athletics and started to eradicate it. 
It was a most difhcidt problem to handle, and just how successful 
he has been in remedying it I do not know. 


But the discipline, so far as concerns the conduct of the boys and 
girls, their deportment in their social functions and here in tlie gymna- 
sium, theii' conduct in the schoolroom, then- conduct and behavior 
before the public, in chapel, in the dining room, and around the 
grounds, at athletic events, and in their attendance at public events 
in Carlisle, has been beyond criticism every time. I never knew of 
a disturbance of any kind to be created. 

The Chairman. Do you know the state of feeling existing between 
the pupils generally and the supermtendent? 

Mr. Goodyear. I do not. 

The Chairman. You have no information as to any open and 
outrageous acts of discourtesy on their part toward him? 

Mr. Goodyear. I know of none of my own personal knowledge. 
I have heard that there has been some feeUng; just to what extent 
I do not know. I understood there was feeling, and I could readily 
see many instances; there is no use of my pleading ignorance. You 
know as well as I do, I have been familiar with these gentlemen all 
my life, or ever since they have been conaected with Carlisle. I 
know Mr. Whitwell and Mr. Stauffer ana all the employees. Just 
what the condition is between these gentlemen and Mr. Friedman I 
do not know. 

The Chairman. I asked if you knew the state of feeling existing 
between the pupils and the superintendent generally; whether it is 
cordial or not ? 

Mr. Goodyear. No; it is not cordial as a whole; certainly not. 

The Chairman. What do you think that is due to ? 

Mr. Goodyear. If I could answer that problem we would solve 
the problem. I think part of the feeling is certainly due to disloyal 

The Chairman. Is it a fact, then, that there is a feeling between 
the superintendent and many of the employees ? 

Mr. Goodyear. I would not sa}" many, but I do know of my own 
personal knowledge that there is feeling among some of them. To 
what extent I do not know. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether or not there is much drunk- 
enness among the hoj^s ? 

Mr. Goodyear. I know there is some drunkenness. 

The Chairman. And has there always been ? 

Mr. Goodyear. There has been ever since the school has been 

The Chairman. Did you ever give attention to the matter, as a 
friend of the school, as to how was the best way to remedy that? 

Mr. Goodyear. I do not believe they could improve on the meth- 
ods alread}^ followed out here to prevent the sale of liquor. 

The Chairman. Well, that is not done. They appear on the 
grounds here drunk and in the buildings, and of course it is very 
demoralizing, ;ind of course it is in violation of the rules and in vio- 
lation of authority. One witness v/hom we examined thinks that a 
great many of the pupils who come here and afterwards engage in 
drinking had acquired the habit before coming, and that there ought 
to be more careful supervision exercised as to the admission of pupils 
who have the habit. That would seem very reasonable if it is true. 

Mr. Goodyear, Yes, I think so. 


The Chairman. Of course, it must be apparent to anv one that a 
school where young ladies and young men study togetlier must be 
greatly demoralized by having even occasional drunkenness among 

Mr. Goodyear. Certainly. I think that idea is a very good one. 
There is no doubt that a great many of these boys and girls have been 
attending school under conditions where they have had a large amount 
of liberty, and they indulge in liberties that are not permitted here. 

The Chairman. Are you in sympathy with the vocational educa- 
tional feature of the institution ? 

Mr. Goodyear. It seems to me that if you wipe that out you 
might as well throw up the school. 

The Chairman. Have you familiarized yourself with what is actually 
being done here in those regards? 

Mr. Goodyear. I have to a limited extent. 

The Chairman. Did you know that there is actually nothing being 
done toward teaching the students farming or kindred occupations 
and that there are practically no efforts being done? 

Mr. Goodyear. Why, I think the outing system is the greatest 
educational factor any institution can have. 

The Chairman. You think the outing system takes the place of 
vocational training? 

Mr. Goodyear. I certainly do. 

The Chairman. I referred when I asked that question to the work 
at the school. Did you know that there was actuall}'' no work of 
that character being done on the farms ? 

Mr. Goodyear. I knew the farms were being run, and I knew they 
had a truck patch out here of several acres where they raised the 
vegetables for the institution. 

The Chairman. Do you think it would be practicable to take these 
farms and give instruction to quite a large number of these boys who 
may have to make a living by farming in the best method of pro- 
ducing crops and the best kind of crops to be produced ? 

Mr. Goodyear. I think it would be a very wise idea. I do not 
think that idea has been developed as far as it should be. 

The Chairman. It would seem that the farms ou^ht to be made to 
produce enough ordinary food products to supply this school. Prac- 
tically nothing is being produced. Now" in other vocational branches, 
take bricklaying and things of that sort that are supposed to be taught; 
it would seem that by this time there ought to be a corps of boys 
here who could construct buildings; that is, do the actual work . 

Mr. Goodyear. I understand they do. The cement work has 
largely been done by the boys. Their repair work 

The Chairman. My information is that most of that work is paid 

Mr. Goodyear. Not to my knowledge. They have a man here, Mr. 
La ma son 

The (iiAiRMAN. They have two farmers here and a dairyman, all 
teaching farming and dairying, and yet it ap])ears that the boys are 
sent to the farm as a kind of penalty; that is, when they get bad they 
make them oo to work on the farm. 

Mr. Goodyear. Really, I do not tlnnk that is always correct. You 
know this, that any boy will look upon being sent to the farm as pun- 
ishment. I was born on the farm, and when my father wanted to 


punish me lie would send me to the garden to hoe weeds; that is, not 
always as a punishment. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether or not that is the system? 

Mr. Goodyear. 1 do not; I l;now that under Gen. Pratt that was 
not the system. A certain number of boys had to be detailed for that 
work. They made out a schedule so that a certain number of boys 
would get there at one time, and they were relieved. 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact, the detail for the farm work 
ought to include quite a number of boys. If it appeared that quite a 
number of boys were apparently detailed all the time, but that the 
detail was limited to a very small number of different boys, that 
system would not be calculated to accomplish anything so far as 
training in agriculture was concerned ? 

Mr. Goodyear. No, sir. 

The Chairman. The athletic work of the school seems to be up 
to a high standard ? 

Mr. Goodyear. It was not for several years. 

The Chairman. It has rather overshadowed the academic work, 
has it not ? 

Mr. Goodyear. I might say there, gentlemen — and I am really 
and truly actuated by the best interests of this institution; we like 
Carlisle; we admire the institution; we do not want any harmful 
thing to be done against the school that is not fair. We want every- 
thing to come out that is true and every criticism the school deserves 
we want made, but we do not want any criticisms made that it does 
not deserve. 

The Chairman. That follows as a matter of course. That is all 
outside the record, because nobody would want to make any unjust 
criticism of any public institution. 

Mr. Goodyear. No, but some people will. What was your 
question ? 

The Chairman. I asked if the athletic feature of the school had 
not overshadowed the academic? 

Mr. Goodyear. No; and I want to say in justice to Mr. Friedman 
that Maj. Mercer made greater efforts to round up athletes than any 
superintendent ever at Carlisle. 

Repre?entative Carter. Did he have an athletic association ? 

Mr. Goodyear^ No, he had not. He had no athletic association, 
but he made a great effort to round up competent athletes, just like 
the other colleges were doing at that time. He went after them and 
got them here, and thus the new and undesirable element that I 
referred to awhile ago entered Carlisle. 

Mr. Friedman, when he came to Carlisle, saw that situation and 
knew that he had to do something with that element. Under Maj. 
Mercer's administration he made special rules for those boys as to 
living in the athletic quarters. They did not have to observe the 
ordinary laws of the school; they went to town when they pleased. 
Mr. Friedman saw that that was demoralizing the entire outfit of 
boys, because the large boys said, ''If these boys in the athletic 
quarters do those things we can do them." And he started to weed 
that element out. In addition to that he realized it was not a fair 
way to handle the athletic fund and he organized an athletic associa- 
tion. He also established eligibility rules, so that a boy when he 
plays four years on the first team is not eligible to play any longer. 



Under the other administrations there were no ehgibihty rules and 
the boys played just as long as they wanted to. 

Representative Stephens. Are you aware of the fact that they 
used to have a farming department here where they had a regular 
teacher of agriculture, and that that has been dropped within the 
last three or four years ? 

Mr. Goodyear. To the best of my recollection that has been 

Representative Stephens, Are you aware, also, that the harness 
shop that they used to run here in Gen. Pratt's time has also been 
dropped ? 

Mr. Goodyear. Yes; for tlie reason they had no place to dispose 
of the harness. 

Representative Stephens. Have you also been informed that the 
Indian art department has been abolished — basket making and blend- 
ing the Indians' art with the art we have at the present time ? 

Mr. Goodyear. I understand that certain features of it have been 
dropped. Painting and certain features of it have been retained, I 
believe, under Mrs. De Corah and Mr. Dietz. 

Representative Stephens. Are you aware that telegraphy is no 
longer taught here, or photography? 

Mr. Goodyear. No. 

Representative Stephens. And horticulture is not taught here 
at all? 

Mr. Goodyear. No; I did not know that. 

Representative Stephens. Do you know of any reason why they 
sjiould not teach horticulture ? 

Mr. Goodyear. No; I think it ought to be taught. 

Representative Stephens. And do you know of any reason why 
they should not raise potatoes enough here to supply the school, and 
garden vegetables of all kinds ? 

Ml-. Goodyear. I know of no reason at all why they should not be. 

Representative Stephens. Have you ever been present in the din- 
ing room at any time when meals were being served ? 

Mr. Goodyear. I have been; yes. 

Representative Stephens. Do you know whether there is any com- 
plaint of not getting enough to cat? 

Mr. Goodyear. No. 

Representative Stephens. And especially bread ? 

Mr. Goodyear. I have not heard a complaint. 

Representative Stephens. There is a bakery shop here? 

Mr. Goodyear. Yes, sir. 

Representative Stephens. Is there any reason why there should 
not be sufficient bread ? 

Mr. Goodyear. Only lack of efficient management. 


Tiie witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. You are a minister, are you ? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Ycs, sir: a clergyman of the Lutheran Church. 

The Chairman. How long have you been stationed at Carlisle ? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Fourtccu years. 

The Chairman. Are you interested in the Carlisle Indian School? 


Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Yos, sir; I have been ever since I came here. 

The Chairman. Have you any official connection with it ? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I Can hardly call it official connection. I was 
chaplain of the school under Gen. Clapp and Maj. Mercer, and part of 
the time under Mr. Friedman. 

The Chairman, Were you a salaried officer ? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Well, now, yes and no, I will have to answer 
that. I was selected by Gen. Pratt to take cliarge of the afternoon 
service on Sunday afternoon, and for three years we had all the chil- 
dren, both the Protestant and the Roman Catholic children, and then 
we divided them, letting the Roman Catholic children hold the service 
in this room with the priest, and we had the Protestant children en- 
tirely and the nonchurch-going children at the afternoon service in 
the chapel, for which I was paid $5 a Sunday out of the athletic funds 
of the school. 

The Chairman. Do you know how they came to charge you out of 
the athletic fund ? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I do uot kuow how it was. 

The Chairman. In any event, that was the arrangement? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Ycs ; the checks that I got came through Mr. 
Miller, who had charge of the atheltic funds. 

The Chairman. How long has it been since you performed services 
in the nature of those 'i 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. For 10 years I did that. Just three years ago, 
owing to other duties which I had taken on, I asked Mr. Friedman 
to relieve me from that work, and since that time we have been 
taking our turns; that is, the Protestant ministers in the town and the 
Roman Catholic priests. 

The Chairman. Do all of them serve? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Ten of them, I think. 

The Chairman. And each one of them gets $5 an afternoon? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Yes, sir. I want to say furthermore, if you 
will pardon me, that during these 10 years I edited the first page of the 
weekly paper for them. I wrote the little articles on success, and 
progress, and interests of tho students, etc., and little excerpts of 
that kind. And I have likewise edited the catalogue for the school 
up until Mr. Friedman came. I have not done that since his time. 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Diffenderfer, we would be very glad to 
have you make any statement that you think you should make, from 
your observation of the Carlisle School and your views regarding the 
work that it is doing. 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. May I say further that 12 years ago, when Gen. 
Pratt had charge of the school, I was sent by Gen. Pratt into the north- 
west to visit a number of reservations and Indian schools, the chief 
object being to make a report on what became of tho children who 
had been educated here, and at the same time secured students for the 
school, and I have visited several T-eservations in the northwest, so 
that I know something first hand of Indian life. 

The Chairman. How long did you stay on each reservation ? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Well, somctimcs for a week; sometimes for 
only a few days. 

Representative Carter. How long were you on the trip ? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I was gouc about eight weeks; a little over 
eight weeks, I think. I started at Vermilion Lake, and went on to 


White Earth and Fort Belknap, and then on to the Colville Reserva- 
tion, and back to Fort Berthold. 

Representative Carter. Js that the only opportunity }(ni have had, 
Doctor, to observe the Indian ? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. The Indian on the reservation; yes; except 
j)assmg through sections where they were. 

The Chairman. I will ask you to make a statement of the result 
of your observation of the Carlisle School, giving any suggestions you 
have to offer for its advancement or improvement. 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Well, I havc been ui touch with the work here 
rather intimately for all these 14 years, and of course have had an 
opportunity to observe conditions. Now, I feel that the progress of 
the school has been marked since Mr. Friedman has taken charge here. 

Representative Carter. You mean you think the school has 
unproved ? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. It has im])roved; I mean in this sense, that 
there was no coordination between the educational system and the 
industrial system when Mr. Friedman came here. Gen. Pratt and J 
talked somewhat about those mattere, and Maj. Mercer and I talked 
about them; and in edituig the catalogue one year we tried to get the 
one to coordinate with the other, so that, for instance, n:e:hanical 
drawing would help the young man in the shop and the teaching part 
of the agricultural feature would help the young man on the farm. 

Representative Carter. Have they any agricultural department 
here now ? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I do not think there is an agricultural teacher 
here now. I do not think there lias been the last year. There was 
an agricultural teacher here until about a year or so ago. 

Representative Carter. Do you thmk the stopping of that has 
improved the school ? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. No ; I would say it has not. I would think 
that the coordination of that education is an essential, and if they do 
not have the preliminary training through the agriculture teacher 
they will not have the benefit of that on the farm. I would say that 
that is not the best thing for the school. What I mean to say is that 
the general plan of work as Mr. Friedman worked it out and as I 
knew it, because I went over it with him at different times — that he 
had the system pretty well worked out. 

Representative Carter. The harness-making department has been 
stopped ? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Ycs, sir; it was stopped about two years ago. 

Representative Carter. And telegraphy has been stopped ? 

Mr, DiFFENDERFER. I did uot know that that had been stopped. 
I had not been in that room for the last six months. 

Representative Carter. And jihotography, did you know that had 
been ? 


Representative Carter. And Indian art? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Indian art; yes; that is, so far as the studio 
was concerned. Indian art in t]ie other department is surely going 
on, is it not. under Mr. Dietz? 

Representative Carter. No; Mr. Dietz teaches pamting. What 
do you know, Doctor, about the discipline of the school now '. 

35601— PT 11—14 1-4 


Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Well, I liavc observed in recent years that 
the material that is commo^ hero m the student body has not been 
perhaps of the same type that we had been getting before — that is, 
more of that element has eome in that seemed to be crude; that did 
not have very much painting in other schools before they came here. 
Of course, I realize that discipline in a school of this kind is a peculiar 
problem. I happened to be interested in several other mstitutions, 
and I know we have to deal with the same problems, and I know we 
do not have the same elements in the child or the pupil that we have 
here at this school. 

Now, the efficiency of discipline, as I understand it, depends very 
largely on your help. I have noticed the frequent changes of assist- 
ants in this school in the last 14 years has always broken up the dis- 
cipline. Since Mr. Friedman has come here a very strenuous effort 
has been made to break up the bootlegging. 

Representative Carter. Have they had any success at all ? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Ycs ; they have broken it up. 

Representative Carter. How many have they sent to the peni- 
tentiary ? 

Ml'. DiFFENDERFER. I kllOW of twO CaSCS. 

Representative Carter. Where they have gone to the peniten- 

Ml". DiFFENDERFER. Ycs ; oiie of a woman and one of a man. 

Representative Carter. Convicted here in Carlisle ? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. No ; coiivictcd hi the Federal court in Sun- 

Representative Carter. And they are now in the penitentiary ? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I do uot kuow what the sentences were. 

Representative Carter. How long ago was that ? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I suppose two yoai's now. 

Represesentative Carter. Have there been any con\'ictions since 
then ? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I do iiot kuow that there have. 

Representative Carter. What do you know of efforts to convict 
them since then ? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I kuow tlioy liavc fought hard to convict 
them. I know there is a colored lady m this town, Mrs. Charlotte 
Strang— she was convicted and sentenced vdthin a year. There 
also was a man here from the State of Washuigton convicted in our 
local court, and I did mterest myself in his behalf, because the 
fellow was a stranger here, although his family were here ; and after 
he was sentenced by the judge to pa}' a fine and he held the sentence 
of imprisonment over him, I went before the judge and asked him 
to let him off on the imprisonment provided he would go back to 
Portland, Oreg., immediately. 

Representative Carter. Has drunkenness increased or decreased 
in the school ? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Now, I would say that drunkenness has 
increased the last few years, at least so far as it is visible. I preached 
for these childi-en a week ago last Sunday, and I told them what I 
had seen the night before — two Indian boys, intoxicated, commg into 
the place of business where I was sitting, about half past 9 o'clock. 

Representative Carter. That seems to be ratlier a common thing, 
does it not ? 


^fr. DiFFENDERFER. It is moro coiiniKiii than it used to be, not- 
witlistiinding the fact that Mr. Frieihnau has put forth efforts to 
stain]) it out. 

Representative ('ARTER. What do you attribute tliat to, Doctor? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. 1 attribute thsit to the fact that tlie discipline 
unch^" the present reghne is not carried on the way it sliould ])e and 
the way it has been before. 1 was one who op])osed ])itterl3^ the 
taking up of the military discipline here, as ]\Ir. Friedman knows. I 
told him so time and again. 

Xow, the inefficient character of the disci])line — I have had girls 
living m my house as servants, and I had the best service I ever had 
from this school, but I ha.d the fight of my life with the boys coming 
to the house. 1 knew the rules of the institution and lived up to 
them, and so did my wife, and we took the Indian gnl with us every 
time we went away, and yet tlie laxity of the discipline on the part 
of the disciplmarian allowed some of the boys to come to town on 
off hours, which was contrary to the rule. And it was just by the 
skm of our teeth that we escaped trouble. 

Representative Carter. Between the boy and the girl ? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Between the boy and the girl. 

Reiiresentative Carter. Do you know anything about the stand- 
ard of morality of the scliool, Doctor? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I kuow uo morc than what comes through 
hearsav, very largely. I did help several persons during Maj. Mer- 
cer's incumbency. He had a case of immorality here, and the 
young people confessed, and I married them and sent them away. 

Re])resentative Carter. Do you know of any cases of girls be- 
coming immoral during Mr. PYiedman's administration ? 


Representative C/ARTer. What would you think if we told you 
there were 32 

The Chairman. Thirty-two girls ex])elled for immorality. 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I would tliiiik that was a very large percent- 
age. This girl that J s])oke of, that was under Maj. Mercer's adminis- 

Representative Carter. I was speaking of Mr. Friedman's ad- 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. 1 kuow nothing about anything of that sort 
in Mr. F"rie(hnan's administration at all. 

Representative Carter, "i'ou do not know anything about any 
comjdaints that are made with relation to the food that is served to 
the children ? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I liavc iicvcr heard of anv comi^laint, and I 
have been in the dining room hundreds of times when meals were 
served, and I have never seen anything but plenty. 

Representative Carter. Has it ever come to your * observation 
that the children did not get enough bread, and that they made 
considera])le trouble about not getting enough food to eat ? 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. No ; I have never heard of that, and I never 
saw it in the suppli* s, because I have been through the supply house. 

Re])resentative Carter. I am talking about the amount furnished 
to the pupils. 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I have been through the supply house, and 
the supply is there. 


Representative Carter. I know that is a common complaint in a 
boarding school, but this has become very general and persistent. 

Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I have never heard any complaint about the 
food here, not in the 14 years I have been here. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. You arc a physician? 

Dr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Are you the school physician ? Or have tliey 
another one ? 

Dr. Allen. I use to be. They have had a substitute here since 
the 1st of January. 

The Chairman. Who is he? 

Dr. Allen. I think his name is Kendtorff. 

The Chairman. Were you the physician until he came here ? 

Dr. Allen. Yes; from the time Dr. Shoemaker left in 1910. 

The Chairman. I presume then you are familiar in greater or less 
degi'ee with the health conditions that prevailed iin the Carlisle 
School up until that time ? 

Dr. Allen. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How^ often were you called to visit the school? 

Dr. Allen. I visited it every day, except Sunday, except once 
that I was on the sick list and once I had an accident, but during that 
that time I visited every day in the week, unless I happened to go 
away to the State medical society or something of that kind. 

The Chairman. What hospital facilities is the school provided 

Dr. Allen. At the present time the hospital facilities of this school, 
I suppose, are better than the hospital of any school in the service. 

The Chairman. Wliat is its capacity and equipment? 

Dr. Allen. There are 40 or 50 beds, including the beds on the 
balconies and hi the two or three private rooms. That is the bed 
capacity. There are two bathrooms and toilet rooms for the use of 
the ghls' ward upstairs, and there are two additional toilets m the front 
part of the building for the use of private rooms. For each w^ard 
downstaii-s there is a bathroom and toilet, and the nurse, I thmk, 
has her private toilet and bathroom, as does the matron. 

Now, in addition to that, wdien I came to the school they had an 
operating room about 8 by 10 feet, with very small lights, and a cen- 
tral light. Wlu n Dr. Shoemaker was here I was called out to perform 
an operation on a pus case for appendicitis. I said to Dr. Shoe- 
maker, if you wall pardon me the expression, "It is a devil of a place 
for a man to operate." There w^as always a great deal of dust 
around, and it was liii})le to get into the opening, and it w^as dan- 
gerous. I performed the operation, however, and the man got w^ell. 
After I got out I went to Mr. Friedman, and I said, "This is the 
worst proposition I ever saw^; it is a disgrace to the school. You 
have an X-ray apparatus downstairs, and this room is readily dark- 
ei ed. Will you allow m(> to make some changes?" He gave his 
consent, anel I took the sitthig room anel fitted that up as an operating 
room, anel I changed that o])eratii)g room i to an X-ray room, wliich 
h(^ allowed me to do. 


I also found quite a number of cases of appendix trouble developed, 
and the nurse refused to run the cold sterilizer they had here. It was 
run by gasohne, and she was afraid to run it. 1 said it was a risky 
thing. I said, "Make a requisition and see whether the office will 
give you a new sterilizer, and give you some new instruments, etc." 
So we did it, and they have a very good operating room and X-ray 
room there at the present time. 

Incidental!}", in addition to that, there was quite a good deal of 
trouble wdth the boys coming in there to the liospital. making excuses 
to come to the dispensary. Of coui-se, you know wliat that means. 
The boys and girls would make an arrangement to both get there at 
the same time to meet each other. We talked that over, and eventu- 
ally came to the conclusion that tliere should be a dispensary for the 
girls' quarters and one for the bo^^s' quarters. Those are the hospital 
facilities, in a general way. I want to say that they are thoroughly 

The Chairman. What are the principal diseases that affected these 
children during your administration i 

Dr. Allen. Quite a number of cases of trachoma, which I did not 
know any more about than the man in the moon when I first came 
out here, but I very soon got on to it. 

The Chairman. Did you stamp that out pretty well ? 

Dr. Allen. We got it under control. I said to Mr. Friedman, 
''I don't know anything about the pupils' eyes. I would like to have 
somebody come out here and size the thing'^up.'' So they got a man 
from town, and he said it was either tubercular or syphilitic; but that 
did not strike me as being plausible, because I could not find any 
indications of tuberculosis or syphihs. I sent some of them to the 
city, and they were fitted with glasses and sent back. Finally Dr. 
White came around and found we had a very great amount of 

The Chairman. What proportion ? 

Dr. Allen. Some 70 to 75 per cent of them had it in one of its 

Representative Carter. When was that. Doctor ? 

Dr. Allen. In 1910, when they made that trachoma investigation. 

The Chairman. Then, how did you handle it after that ? 

Dr. Allen. W^e followed the directions of Dr. White — had daily 
treatments; washed them out; scrubbed them out; sandpapered 
them — — 

The Chairman. When you finished what proportion or percentage 
of the pupils had it? 

Dr. Allen. Well, I ought to say this to you. You gentlemen 
know tliat when you have had trachoma once jou never get rid of it; 
but the eyes of tiie students here are in mucli better condition than 
they were before. 

The Chairman. You do not tliink there are approximately 70 per 
cent of the pupils now affected with trachoma? 

Dr. Allen. No, I do not say that; but I want to say to you that 
when I was here as a visiting physician those cases were treated in the 
dispensary, and 1 did not visit them. I could not tell you, but I do 
not think that there is that much liere at the present time. 

The Chairman. Do you find muc'a tuberculosis among the pupils? 


Dr. Allen. Quite a number of cases have been sent in from the 
West. Very little tuberculosis develops here in the school, but the 
majority of cases of tuberculosis in my connection witli the school were 
tubercular when admitted. 

The Chairman. That is, they had it before tliey came here? 

Dr. Allen. They had it when tliey came. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether or not a survey of the school 
was ever made to determine how many of the pupils were tubercular I 

Dr. Allen. Yes. 

The Chairman. Wliat was the result ? 

Dr. Allen. There was an investigation — a close investigation — ■ 
made by the Marine Hospital Service — the Public Health Service. 
The gentleman was here during my administration, and he found 
about six marked cases which I already Imew of, and several incipient 
cases which I already knew of. At the same time I had had two or 
three admitted to the sanitarium for treatment. There is not a large 
number of tubercular cases. Then we kept tab on them by daily 
weights. At the same time, after I came here, I found in the outing 
system that there was no method of keeping tab on the outing 
students, and I got up a form and had them give a bimonthly report 
in regard especially to their eyes, weight, and cough, so I could keep 
in touch with tliem. 

The Chairman. What was your salary while j^ou were school 
physician ? 

Dr. Allen. I did not come out here for the salary, my dear sir. 

The Chairman. What did they pay you ? 

Dr. Allen. $60 a month. 

The Chairman. It was inadequate. Do you know what the 
present physician gets ? 

Dr. Allen. $1,400. I came here because I liked the work. 

The Chairman. And you could do it in conjunction "uath your 
regular work ? 

Dr. Allen. Yes; with the resident physician who was on the 

f round I could do that. I want to make this statement: I have been 
ere quite a number of years, and when I came here I found quite a 
number of cases of tubercular glands. Through my personal friend- 
ship with Dr. John B. Deever I started the use of tubercular injec- 
tions of glands. If you gentlemen just keep your eyes open as you 
walk around tlie grounds you will find very few of them on the grounds. 
I reported that before the State Medical Society a few years ago, and 
my report has been abstracted in the medical journals. 

I want to say to you tliat my associations here in the school, so far 
as Mr. Friedman is concerned, were such that he seemed to — and did 
every time I wanted anything to better the health of the pupils of 
this school — come to time as well as he could, when he could get the 
consent of the Indian Office to do so. 

The Chairman. It was at your suggestion that the hospital was 
fitted up ? 

Dr. Allen. The hospital is better equipped to-day than our hos- 
pital at Carlisle. It is equipped to do general and special work, 
abdominal work, and work on tonsils and adenoids. There are quite 
a number of adenoid and tonsil cases here, giving the chihh-en trouble. 
Taking them to the city made quite a good deal of trouble. Through 
my association with physicians in the city they were operated on 


without cost, except for the car fare, but it was quite an expense to the 
school, anil I said to Mr. Friedman — I beheve Mr. Abbott was here — 
I said, ''If I had a few instruments I could reheve the school of this 
expense." Mr. Abbott said, "If you will send in a requisition I will 
let you have them," and I have been operating on the adenoid and 
tonsils since that time. 

The Chairman. Have you any particular facts that you want to 
communicate to the commission ? 

Dr. Allen. I have been connected with this school three years and 
a half. I do not want you to understand that I am knocking the 
civil service, but t!ie man who occupies the position of superintendent 
of a scjiool of this kind and has not the choosing of his employees, 
and lias thrust upon him a lot of incompetent men who will refuse to 
do their work, or to do it properly — he is going to liave trouble aU the 
time he is here. 

The Cil\irmax. In that connection, do you know the state of feel- 
ing between the superintendent and the employees ? 

Dr. Allen. There is this about it — and I was very closely associated 
with Mr. Friedman — I am glad to say to you that he and I were very 
good friends here. I suppose I was in the office three times a week 
to talk over the situation as to the general health of the pupils of the 
school, and I have always found — sitting in there and listening as 
the other wants came in — that there was always more or less incom- 
petency connected with this school for which he had to be responsible. 

The Chairman. Can you be a little more specific about that ? 

Dr. Allen. I am going to report one instance. 

The Chairman. The only purpose we have in asking these ques- 
tions is, of course, to get at the facts. 

Dr. Allen. It was a case that affected the health of the school. 
They got a new dairyman here a short time ago. I think the Agri- 
cultural Department sent a man down here to investigate, and he made 
his report as Mr. Friedman submitted it. A short time ago, probably 
about two or three months before I left the school, there were a 
number of cases of indeterminate forms of fever which I would 
classify, without microscopical analysis, as a variant of typhoid. 
I went around and investigated conditions around the buildmgs, 
and I found no cause for it. Finally I got into my car and drove 
down to the dairy, and I took the resident physician along. I went 
in. I do not think I ever saw a filthier place hi my life. It was 
absolutely covered with filth. You could not walk tln'ough the dairy 
without getting your shoes soiled. I went into the milk-house and 
found it filthy. I found the cans exposed to all the dust ajid dirt 
blowing across the field. And I simply ripped him up the back 
good and proper. I told him I thought it was absolutely contempti- 
ble, the condition of his cattle, the condition of the stable, and the 
condition the milk must naturally be in. I came up to the school — 
I always had some pupils on the milk treatment, and I took them 
off", and I wrote a report to Mr. Friedman and submitted it to him. 

The Chairman. I suppose your attention was attracted to that by 
reason of its relation to the question of health ? 

Dr. Allen. Yes. I was raised on a farm, and even in the old 
days of ;^5 and 40 years ago our stable never looked as dirty as that, 
and this is a nice concrete stable. And he is still down there. Ho 
is respon^iible for a man "f that kiiid. 


Roproscntative Carter. What action did ])r. Friodmau take? 

Dr. Allen. He sent it to Washington, as lie had to send the agri- 
cultural report to Washington. 

Representative Carter. What occurred then ^ 

Dr. Allen. I do not loiow, sir. Notlung has been done about it. 
That man is still there. 

It is a^\'fullT hard for a man to be responsi])le for an incompetent 
employee, and it is miglity hard for a doctor to keep patients well in 
an institution where he gets infected milk. 

Is there anytliing else you gentlemen would like to ask ? 

Representative Carter. Doctor, do you know anytliing about the 
general feeling of the students toward ]\Ir. Friedman and Mr. Fried- 
man's feeling toward them '(! 

Dr. Allen. I do not know that I know the feeling of the students 
toward Mr. Friedman, because in the position I have been in I have 
never sounded the position of the subordinate against the superin- 
tendent; but I do know Mr. Friedman's position to the students, so 
far as he has personally expressed it to me, as in our talks in the office, 
has always been of the very best and kindest. 

Representative Carter. Have you ever heard of any general 
insubordination in the school ? 

Dr. Allen. No; I have not. 

Representative Carter. Have you ever heard of any drunkenness 
among them ? 

Dr. Allen. There is drunkenness among the students in the insti- 
tution, and has been ever since tliis school has been established. 

Representative Carter. Has that increased or decreased ? 

Dr. Allen. Decreased. 

Representative Carter. You are sure of that, are you? 

Dr. Allen. Absolutely sure; because I am informed 

Representative Carter. How many boys are there in the guard- 
house now for drunkenness ? 

Dr. Allen. Why, I do not know. 

Representative Carter. How many in the city jail? 

Dr. Allen. I do not know. 

Representative Carter. How do you know it is decreasing ? 

Dr. Allen. I do not see so much of it on the streets. I am only 
spealdng from observation. 

Representative Carter. Do you know anything about the morality 
of the students ? 

Dr. Allen. Nothing, except what has come under my personal 
observation at the hospital. There have been two or three girls 
pregnant. It did not occur at the school. One of them came from 
the reservation pregnant, one from the outijig system, and, I tliiiik, 
another one. I understood during my administration over at the 
hospital there were a couple of cases where a girl shd do\\^i into the 
basement during the night and met a boy. What the girl's name 
was or what the boy's name was I do not know. 

Representative Carter. What would you think if Ave told you 
there were 32 cases of immorality since Mr. Friedman has been here ? 

Dr. Allen. Not nearly as many as when Gen. Clapp was here. 

Representative Carter. Does that afford a reason for it ? 

Dr. Allen. There is a reason, to my mind. 

Representative Carter. We should be glad to know it. 


Dr. Allen. I am not speaking against the race as a whole, but 
you take the Indian boy and girl that come from the reservation, 
not thorough!}' covered over with the veneer of civihzation, with 
notliing to restrain their passions, and bring them under the cn-\aron- 
ment of civihzation, ana you are going to have those things occur 
regardless of who is superintendent, discipUnarian, or matron. 

Keprosontative Carter. What opportunity have you had to ob- 
serve the Indian in his native state ? 

Dr. Allen. I was out on the plains in 1883, in and about the 
Rosebud Agency. I was a cow-puncher for a while. 

Representative Carter. How long did you stay there? 

Dr. Allen. I was there a year. 

Representative Carter. Your opportunity, then, to observe the 
morals of Indians has not been great ? 

Dr. Allen. Except here at this school. 

Representative Carter. I have had abundant opportunity to 
observe them, and I do not think that in the civilized world t]ie\' have 
an equal as to morals. 

Dr. Allen. That may t)e true. 

Representative Carter. I understand there was a petition circu- 
lated sajdng that everythhig was all right at Carlisle, or words to that 

Dr. Allen. I helped get that petition up, Mr. Carter. 

Representative Carter. And that lU) investigation was needed. 

Dr. Allen. I do not know that it said that. 

Representative Carter. And censuring one of the Congressmen for 
:ui investigation being ordered. 

Dr. Allen. I do \rish you would come into my office just about 10 
minutes before you go away. 

Representative Carter. There is nothing to prevent you from 
sa^'ing anything here. 

Dr. Allen. There are some things connected with that that I 
would undertake 

Representative Carter. Let me ask you a question: Do you think 
an institution where 82 girls have been ruined during the space of 
time that Mr. Friedman has been here is all right? 

Dr. Allen. I do not think you could put a superintendent in this 
school, Mr. Carter 

Representative Carter. You could answer that cjuestion yes or no. 

Dr. Allen. I am going to answer my way. I do not think you 
could put a superintendent in this coeducational school and surround 
him with the subordinates he has, ^\^th the same subordinates, that 
the same thing would not occur. 

Representative Carter. Do you think, then, that these 32 cases 
of immorality is just about the average? 

Dr. Allen. No; I do not say so. 

Representative Carter. I understood that from your statement. 

Dr. Allen. I said this, if you will pardon me. I said that if you 
put any otlier superintendent here and the same kind of subordinates 
under him the same thing would occur. 

Representative Carter. Well, under such condi'tions, tlien, that 
woulfl be just about the average? 

Dr. Allen. If he had subordinates that were not dohig their duty. 


Representative Carter. Do you think the subordinates are not 
doing their duty ? 

Dr. Allen. I do not think so; no, sir. 

Representative Carter. Can you give us their names? 

Dr. Allen. I have given you one instance. 

Representative Carter. One man could not cause all this. 

Dr. Allen. I am giving you something that I know positively, 
because it came under my own observation. I can not say to you 
that Mr. McKeen is not a good disciphnarian and that he does not 
do his duty, because I have no means of knowing it, nor can I say 
that Mr. Whitwell is not a good teacher, because 1 do not know how 
he teaches. You are asking me 

Representative Carter. Certainly; I am asking you for facts. 

Dr. Allen. That is right, and I am giving you the one absolute 
fact that I have come in contact ^\dth. 

Representative Carter. You say it is a fact that there is a large 
amount of incompetency among the subordinates, do you ? 

Dr. Allen. I believe so; I can not put my finger on it. I have 
put my finger on one case. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. What is your business, Mr. Henderson ? 

Mr. Henderson. I am an attorney, a member of the bar of Cum- 
berland County. 

The Chairman. This is a commission of Members of Congress, 
looking into conditions at Carlisle. If you have any definite infor- 
mation as to the conditions, we would be glad to have you state it 
and do it as briefly as you can. 

Mr. Henderson. I do not know exactly what you mean by definite 
information, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you know the condition of affairs in the school ? 

Mr. Henderson. I would be glad to state my knowledge of the 
school as a neighbor. I resided just west of the school, my property 
abutting on the school property. I am also, I might say here, one 
of the owners of the real estate known as the "Meadows," which I 
lease to the Government and upon which the entrance faces just 
below here. 

As a neighbor of the school, I am very glad of the op])ortunity 
afforded by this commission to state that in my opinion, having a 
knowledge of the school from the days it was first established by 
Gen. Pratt, then Capt. Pratt, I have never seen it in a better condition 
than it is at the present time under Supt. Friedman. 

The Chairman. Wliat is the state of feehng existing between the 
superintendent and the pu])ils generally, if you know it ? 

Mr. Henderson. I am not in a position, sir, to answer that question. 

The Chairman. Do you know the state of feeling between the 
superintendent and the cmj)loyees ? 

Mr. Henderson. I do not know anything definitely upon that 
subject. So far as I know, their relations are harmonious, with the 
exception that, as a matter of hearsay, I have understood that there 
has been some friction existing between the present su])erintendent 
and one of the employees of the school. 


The Chairman. Do you know whetlier there is much (hunkeiiness 
among the boys 'i 

Mr. Henderson. On that point I wish to say that I have never 
seen a drunken Indian in Carlisle, with but two exceptions. On one 
occasion about dusk, between 7 and 8 o'clock in the evening, during 
the past year. I met an Indian who was intoxicated, accompanied by 
two of his fellow Indian friends, apparently being escorted home to 
the school by the front entrance. 1 say tlie front entrance, because 
I was struck by this fact, that those Indian boys w^ould have the 
manliness to conduct the boy in that condition back to the school, 
where he could not fail to be observed. 

On another occasion I remember seeing, at some little distance on 
the road to the school, after leaving the town Imiits on North Han- 
over Street, about o o'clock in the evening, a crowd, or rather a 
gathering of 7 or 8 people, and I inquired wdiat it w^as, and they said 
tliat it was an Indian who had been arrested for drunkenness by a 

The Chairman. Do you know whether he was a student here 
or not? 

Mr. Henderson. I understood that the Indian was a student. 

The Chairman. What is the general conduct and demeanor of the 
pupils ? Is it good ? 

tlr. Henderson. Excellent. When I say excellent I speak from 
the standpomt of one wdio observes from the outside, and as a neigh- 
bor. I overlook the school. As living near the school, I come daily 
in contact with the pupils who travel to and from the school. I 
have never had a complaint to make or to suggest, in my knowledge of 
the school, of any act of rudeness, any boisterousness, or any rough 
play or unbecoming conduct on the part of a single Indian student 
m the streets of Carlisle. 

The Chairman. Do they pass your house on the way to town and 
return ? 

Mr. Henderson. They^ do, sir. 

The Chairman. That is a ver^' remarkable statement to make of 
a school of this character. 

Mr. Henderson. I live right opposite here 

The Chairman. How long have you lived there? 

Mr. Henderson. I have lived there since an infant, and since the 
foundation of the school. That is nearly 13 years. 

The Chairman. Other than the two occasions you have referred 
to, you have seen no signs of drunkenness, and have never been dis- 
turbed by any signs of misconduct ? 

Mr. Henderson. Never. On the other hand, I have been an- 
noyed by our native white boys frequently. That is because of the 
fact that they do pass up and down the run that passes between our 
property and the Indian school, and if there w'as any little thieving 
in the w^ay of fruit, the temptation w^as there. But in that whole 
period of yeais, at no time have I had occasion, or my family had 
occasion, to register a complaint against an Indian boy, wdth but one 
exception, and that was under these cu'cumstances: 

I noticed that there was an obstruction in the flow of the stream. 
An examination disclosed that some obstruction had been placed in 
the stream down by the woods, which is property belonging to the 
Indian school under the lease, and I complained to Mr. Friedman, 


although I stated to him at the time that I had no knowledge of 
whether the obstruction was placed there by tow^^ boys or by his 
pupils. Mr. Friedman at once gave the matter his attention, and 
instructed that the obstruction be removed, and took every step 
that would prevent its repetition in the future. 

Tlie CIL4.IRMAX. We are very mucJi obliged to you, Mr. Henderson. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. Mr. ^McMillan, the joint commission of Congress 
charged uith the duty of investigating Indian affairs generally, are 
looking into conditions at Carlisle, and we have been informed that 
you are somewhat familiar with conditions here. We would be very 
glad to have any information that you may be able to communicate. 

You are a minister, are you ? 

Mr. Mc]\liLLAN. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Of what church? 

Mr. McMillan. I am rector of the Episcopal Church. I suppose 
I have been tlie longest here of any minister. I have been 22 years 
coming to the school to administer, especially to children of the Epis- 
copal Church, having an appointment here at least once a week for the 
midweek meeting and at other times. 

The Chairman. Have they a church here, or assembly hall for 
religious services ? "Where do they hold religious services ? 

Mr. McMillan. On Monday evening the Methodists meet in one 
room and we meet in another one. Their pastors come out to meet 
them especially for a short service. 

The Chairman. Your observation of conditions here arises from 
your ministrations to the children as a minister principally? 

Mr. McMillan. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What have you to say about the moral and disci- 
plinary conditions prevailing in the school? I suppose they would 
attract your attention ? 

^Ir. McMillan. They do, sir. My impression has been for some 
time past, comparing them with the other administrations, that I 
think the moral condition and discipline has been better. But some 
things have occurred to disturb the moral condition of the school 
from time to time, under Capt. Clapp and under Maj. Mercer, too. 

The Charman. You do not think the conditions are growing worse 
with reference to conduct among the pupils, do you? 

Mr. McMillan. No, sir; not from what I can see. 

The Chairman. You see them, however, I suppose, on their best 
behavior, when they are at church ? 

Mr. McMillan. Xo; 1 do not see them often at church. 

The Chairman. Where do you see them ? 

Mr. McMillan. I see them on the grounds. I have taken some 
liberty as a friend to visit them in dormitories. 

The ('iiAiKMAN. Did you do that? 

Mr. McMillan. Yes, sir. 

The (^iiairman. Hoav often? 

Mr. McMillan. That is only occasionally, when 1 go to see anyone. 

The Chairman. What have you to say about the way their 
quarters are f lu-nished and kept ? 



Mr. McjSIillan. About the same as tliey have been. 

The Chairman. Ai'e they satisfactory and comfortable? 

^Ir. McMillan. I never Jiave heard any comphiint. 

The Chairman. Do you visit the mess halls during meals? 

Mr. McMillan. The general dining room ( I do at times. 

The Chairman. Have you been there ^vhen complaints were 
general about the lack of a sufficient quantity of food, and especially 
the lack of a sufficient quantity of bread? 

Ml'. McMillan. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you know that compalints were general on 
that score ? 

'Mr. McMillan. Just a little. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether there is much drunkenness 
among the pupils ? 

Ml*. McMillan. That I hear reported occasionally; yes. I have 
been in court on jury duty where there was a case tried about two or 
three months ago. 

The Chairman. I do not refer to exceptional cases, but only to 

;Mr. McMillan. I know only by report. 

The Chairman. Do you know what efforts are made tu suppress 
the sale of liquor to these Indian pupils, of your own knowledge ? 

Mr. McMillan. I am not so closely in touch with that. 

The Chairman. You would think that if drunkenness or excessive 
drinking was common among the pupils, it would be a very bad 
condition, woidd you not ? 

]Mr. McMiLLAN."^ Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Going to the very integrity of the institution and 
its promises of success. Are you informed as to the moral conditions 
prevailing in tlie school ? 

Mr. McMillan. Only by report. 

The Chairman. You have heard reports of many cases of im- 
morality ? 

Mr. McMillan. Not many. 

The Chairman. Do you know the feeling of the pupils toward 
Mr. Friedman and the feeling of Mi-. Friedman tov.'ard the pupils ? 
Do you know the relationship that exists between them? 

Ml*. McMillan. Until very recently, within the last few days, my 
impression has been all favorable. 

The Chairman. You mean your impression has been that the 
feeling is cordial ? 

Mr. Mc^IiLLAN. Cordial; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you know, as a matter of fact, that it is quite 
otherwise, and that there is quite a general feeling of hostility? 

Mr. McMillan. No. 

The Chairman. You had not been informed of that ? 

Mr. McMillan. Not of any standing, I would imagine. 

The Chairman. How did you learn of it ? 

Mr. McMillan. By rumor — not from the children, of course; and 
they would be free to speak to me. 

The Chairman. Do you know the state of feeling between the 
superintendent and the employees generally ? 

Mr. McMillan. I know of cases of conflict between them. 


The Chairman. Of course, you do not know anything about who 
is to blame, and woukl not undertake to pass upoii that? 

Mr. McMillan. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Have you examined into the academic work that 
is being done ? 

Mr. McMillan. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Are you famihar with the work that is being done 
in vocational training ? 

Mr. McJMillan. I could not speak of that. An occasional visit to 
the shops would not teach me enough to enable me to pass on it. 

The Chairman. We thank you very much. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. Are you connected with Carlisle School? 

Miss LovEWELL. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. In w^hat capacity? 

Miss LovEWELL. As a teacher. 

The Chairman. How long have you been employed here? 

Miss Love WELL. Four and a haliF years. 

The Chairman. Are you familiar with the conditions in the school 
with reference to discipline ? 

Miss LovEW^ELL. I think so. 

The Chairman. Are those conditions good or bad? 

Miss LovEWELL. I call them very bad. 

The Chairman. Will you describe them briefly? 

Miss LovEWELL. Now", at the school building I should say they 
were better than last year, but take them in a general way — you 
mean in a general way ? 

The Chairman. Yes. What is the feeling of the pupils toward 
the superintendent ? Do you know ? 

Miss Love WELL. Oh, yes; they are very bitter toward him. 

The Chairman. Is that general? 

Miss LovEWELL. I think it is. 

The Chairman. Do you know" wdiat it is due to ? 

Miss Love WELL. It is ever3^thing together. There have been so 
many things. One thing in particular, I think^ they have taken a 
great dislike to is when he has stood up in the auditorium before 
them as a body and tried to put down Mr. Whitwell. 

The Chairman. Mr. Whitwell is popular ^nth them, is he? 

Miss LovEWELL. He is, very. 

The Chairman. That has aroused their resentment? 

Miss LovEWELL. That is one thing I have seen very strongly. Of 
course, he has upheld the matron in very severe measures that she 
has taken, and I think that is one reason. 

The Chairman. What is the feeling generally between him and 
the em]>loyees in the school ? Is it cordial or otherwise ? 

Miss LovEWELL. I think not, with only a few exceptions. He has 
a few favorites. 

The Chairman. Could you name them? 

Miss LovEWELL. Well, I think his most particular one in the 
school is Mrs. Foster. Another one is ^liss Reicliel. 


The Chairman . Do you know of employees having been reproved 
for entertaining pupils ? 

Miss LovEWELL. Yes; it was made publicly. He reproved them 
at a faculty meeting. Other employees were present. 

The Chairman. Why? 

Miss LovEWELL. The faculty meeting was held down in the old 
music room and he said that — there was cpiite a little discussion— he 
said he objected to the employees entertaining the boys. It went on 
just the same: it did not stop. 

The Chairman. Do you know^ Mr. Stauffer ? 

Miss LoVEWELL. I do. 

The Chairman. What is his position? 

Miss LovEW^ELL. Music teacher. 

The Chairman. Was he formerly connected with the Agriculture 
Department ? 

Miss LovEWELL. He w^as not connected with it. He tried to get in 
as agriculture teacher, and they tried to get him in. 

The Chairman. What are the moral conditions prevailing in the 
school generally ? 

Miss Love WELL. I think they are at very low ebb. 

The Chairman. Will 3 ou tell us why you think so ? 

Miss LovEWELL. Well, boys and girls are meeting constantly. 

The Chairman. Clandestinely and improperly? 

Miss LovEWELL. Yes. indeed. 

The Chairman. What effort is made to prevent that ? 

Miss IjOVEWell. Well, of c(>urse, I am not in a position to know. 
I know after they are found out they are locked up for a little w^hile. 
The last meeting the}"^ had they were not locked up as long as usual. 
They were locked up a few days and then released. Usually it has 
been several days. 

The Chairman. Are there many instances of innnorality in the 
conduct of the pupils of the school ? 

Miss Love WELL. Yes. 

The Chairman. Is that known and understood among the employ- 
ees of the school generally ? 

Miss LovEWELL. Oh, yes, indeed. 

The Chairman. What do you think is the remedy for these condi- 
tions ? What do you think ought to be done ? 

Miss LovEWELL. Well, I have said wdien I have been so excited 
over it that I thought there should be something done, and if I could 
not do something else, if I w\as superintendent, instead of raising 
inefficient em})loyees, I w^ould take that money and hire a guard and 
put it around the girls' school building. If there w^ere any other way 
to protect them I would do that. Of course, these boys, as night 
v\-atchmen, are not of any account, for that matter. 

The Chairman. Do you know ? 

]\Iiss LovEW'ELL. Yes. 

The Chairman. Where was she from ? 

Miss LovEWELL. From Montana. 

The Chairman. Did she have trouble here? 

Miss LovEWELL. It was re]>ort(Hl that she met a boy at the hospital. 
The nurse who was there told me the whole particulars. She said 
they could not get quite proof enough; there was not any doubt of it, 
but still they did not have positive proof. 


The Chairman. Do you know other cases of alleged immorality? 

Miss LoyEWELL. You mean 

The Chairman. Among other pupils ? 

Miss LoyEWELL. Oh, yes; I could mention a great many. 

The Chairman. You state that there are a great many cases of 

Miss LoyEWELL, Yes. 

The Chairman. Are there many girls sent home on account of it ? 

Miss LoyEWELL. Yes; and some of them become mothers. How 
far I can testify to that I do not know. It was generally understood 
that they became mothers. 

The Chairman. Do you know how many are reported to haye had 
that misfortune ? 

Miss LoyEWELL. Well, I could not tell now, 

(The list of names submitted by Mrs. Dietz was handed to the 

Miss LoyEWELL. I do not remember the names of those who be- 
came mothers. There was immorality, but I could not say posi- 
tiyely — -they were immoral, there is no doubt about that. And it 

was known, or at least generally understood, that • • • had 

a disease that, perhaps, is worse than to become a mother. At 
least, it was understood so. Benedict Cloud reported the story. 
Shall I tell the conditions connected with it ? 

The Chairman. No; I do not care to have them go into the record. 

Miss LoyEWELL. That was in regard to writing a note to Mr. 

The Chairman. Go ahead. 

Miss LoyEWELL. — > — — — • — • — • was in my schoolroom, and I had 
this talk with the nurse over there. She told me the conditions, and 
that Benedict Cloud had reported this story to her. She was there 
some little time, and then she came to school. I went to Mr, Whit- 
well, and I said, "If the conditions are what they say they are it 
does not seem to me that — • — ■ — • — ~— should be in school," He 
said, ''If you wish to WTite you may send it through me," So I 
wrote to Mr. Friedman, sajdng that if the stories were true she should 
not be in the schoolroom, that her presence was contaminating. He 
wrote back that he had made an investigation, and that such libellous 
stories should cease. I wrote back that I had talked to the doctor 
about it, and that Benedict Cloud repeated the story. The doctor 
told me there was some trouble with Benedict Cloud, but he was not 
quite cfn-tain what it was. 

Representative Carter. Have you and the superintendent ever 
had any trouble? 

Miss LovEWELL. No — well, there was trouble, if you call it so — • 
about ni}" being sick at one time. Shall I tell that? 

Representative Carter. Just briefly. 

Miss LovEWELL. I was detailed to the dining room and worked 
very hard. It was too hard. I had my meals irregularly, and I was 
taken ill and ha<l tlie doctor. But I heard there were so many stories 
about it, and the one ^ho was taking my place was very much opposed 
to being then'^, so I said, ''I am going to get up and report for duty." 
I wont to Mr. Friedman and said, "I am going to report for duty,"' 
and he said, '"No; 1 do not want any such thing. You take your 
vacation now. We can not give you any sick leave." I said, ''Well, 


I was going to report for duty." He said, "No; anyone who will 
give up their work and b'^ traveling all over the campus can not be 
very sick." I said, "I beg your pardon, Mr. Friedman, I liave not 
been able to walk over the campus. I have been sick in bod, tind the 
doctor has been attending ni"." He said, ''Well, I must take ray 
leave." At that very time he said Mrs. Foster was on a month's sick 
leave. Miss Reichel was home and was taken sick after she went 
home, and had two week's sick leave. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

Representative Carter. Miss McDowell, what is your position in 
the school ? 

Miss McDowell. Teacher. 

Representative Carter. Will you please tell us what you know 
what is wi'ong with this school, if you have any information to give us ? 

Miss McDowell. It seems to me we need a strong, upright, honest 
man for superintendent. That is the only thmg I know of — -the 
greatest need I know of. 

Representative Carter. Does Mr. Friedman seem to take any 
interest m this school ? 

Miss McDowell, His greatest is in himself. At least it seems so 
to me; that every motive seems to be, "How will it affect the super- 
intendent?" and thus benefit the superintendent rather than the 
general welfare of the school. 

Representative Carter. He is a good advertiser, is he ? 

Miss McDowell. He certainly is. 

Representative Carter. He takes quite a lot of interest in the 
band ? 

Miss McDowell. Certainly; they advertise the school. 

Representative Carter. What do you think about the essentials? 
Does he pay any attention to the essential things ? 

Miss McDowell. It seems to me the most necessary things — -the 
upbuilding of character and things that are for the benefit of the 
school and are most essential — are neglected. 

Representative Carter. Do he and Mr. Whitwell get along well? 

Miss McDowell. Very poorly. 

Representative Carter. Who do you think is to blame for it? 

Miss McDowell. Of course I think Air. Whitwell is an upright 
honorable man. I have taught school, 14 years in the public schools 
and 19 in the Indian schools, and I never taught under a principal 
that I thought more interested, more helpful, who listened more 
patiently to what I have had to say. And I think that when he does 
not have the help and support of the superintendent it shows its 
effect throughout the school. 

Representative Carter. AVhat do you know about the complaints 
of the children concerning their food ? 

Miss McDowell. I know they have complained to me. Just two 
weeks ago— now, the boys come in before the girls. They lined up 
along the wall and said they were so hungry. It was just afternoon. 
I said, ' ' Do you have good food, good bread ? " And they said, ' ' Yes ; 
but the meat was spoiled to-day, and we don't have bread enough." 

35601— PT 11—14 15 


Representative Carter. Is the complaint general about the food ? 
Do all the children indulge in that comjilaint ? 

Miss McDowell. Well, of course, sometimes we all grumble about 
the food. I do not know that it is general. Every time I have been 
to inspect the food it has been good. I think generally the food has 
been good; the bread has been good. They claim they do not get 
enough of it, and hard-working girls and boys do need more. 

Representative Carter. What do you know about the feeling 
between the superintendent and the boys ? Is it good or bad 'i 

Miss McDowell. As I say, it seems as if the superintendent lacks 
sympathy with both the employees and the children. 

Representative Carter. Now, the thing I wanted to know was, Is 
the feeling good or bad between them ? 

Miss McDowell. I think they quite clearly know him, and do not 
distrust him. 

Representative Carter. They do not respect him ? 

Miss McDowell. I do not think they do respect and trust him. 

Representative Carter. Have you known oi any evidence of this 
disrespect being shown in a general way? 

Miss McDowell. I liave heard of that, but as to seeing it — they 
do not applaud him when he gets up to make a remark in chapel, 
like he would expect them to if they thought what he said was sincere 
and honest. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. How long have you been here? 

Mr. Abrams. Fifteen months. 

The Chairman. You are the gardener, are you? 

Mr. Abrams. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What salary do you get ? 

Mr. Abrams. $720. 

The Chairman. How many acres of land do you cultivate? 

Mr. Abrams. Six. 

The Chairman. Six acres ? 

Mr. Abrams. For garden; yes. 

The Chairman. What crops did you produce this year ? 

Mr. Abrams. Cabbage, peas, beans, cauliflower 

The Chairman. Are students detailed to do the work ? 

Mr. Abrams. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How many students do they detail to you? 

Mr. Abrams. From 10 to 12. 

The Chairman. Couldn't you work a much larger area than that 
with that number ? 

Mr. Abrams. Certainly. 

The Chairman. Wliy don't you cultivate a sufficient garden to 
supply all the needs of the school ? 

Mr. Abrams. I do not have enough ground for it and not enough 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact, if sufficient ground were fur- 
nishetl you, you could take the student labor and make and gather 
enough vegetables and other garden truck to run the school all the 
year round ? 


Mr. Abrams. Yes. 

The Chairman. What did you produce last year? 

Senator Lane. How many cabbages ? 

Mr. Abrams. About 5,000 head. 

The Chairman. Potatoes and onions ? How much onions did you 
grow ? 

Mr. Abrams. Over 1,000 bunches. 

The Chairman. Is there any orchard on this school ground ? 

Mr. Abrams. No orchard; no. 

Senator Lane. How many dried onions? 

Mr. Abrams. I had 10 or 12 bushels. 

Senator Lane. How many carrots? 

Mr. Abrams. I had about 10 bushels. I had tomatoes — about 400 
bushels. I had about 150 bushels of beets. 

Senator Lane. Did they can any of the tomatoes ? 

Mr. Abrams. They canned 800 gallons and could have canned 800 
more. We gave them lots of radishes. 

Representative Stephens. Are the boys that are sent you sent 
there as a punisliment? 

Mr. Abrams. No, sir. 

Representative Stephens. How do you get them ? 

Mr. Abrams. By detail every montli. 

Representative Stephens. Do you select them ? 

Mr. Abrams. Mr. McKean, the disci phnarian. Tliey report to me 
every first of the month. 

Representative Stephens. They are under his charge for some- 
thing they have done wrong ? 

Mr. Abrams. They are under his charge all the time. When they 
come to me they are under my charge. 

Representative Stephens. Are they sent to you to teach them to 
farm ? 

Mr. Abrams. To teach them to work, and we do teach them in 

Senator Lane. Are they ever sent to you to punish them? 

Mr. Abrams. No, sir. They only sent me a couple of boys about 
a month ago. I asked for a couple of boys. I am digging about 160 
feet of bed, and I asked for a few good boys to help, and they sent a 
couple of boys, to punish them, for that purpose. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. You are the tailor for the CarHsle School? 

Mr. Nonast. I am. 

The Chairman. Where is your shop ? 

Mr. Nonast. Over this way, past this building. 

The Chairman. What work do you do in the tailor shop for the 
school ? 

Mr. Nonast. Mostly uniforms and repairing. 

The Chairman. You make the uniforms and do the repair work 
for tlie older pupils ? 

Mr. Nonast. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. Do you make all the uniforms? 

Mr. Nonast. Practically aU; yes. 


The Chairman. You do no repair work for the younger ones ? 

JMr. NoNAST. The repair work for the small boys is supposed to be 
done by the girls. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether or not it is done by them 
or whether or not the clothing is destroyed ? 

Ml'. NoNAST, I know hardly any repairing is done over there, and 
I know as much from one of the sewing ladies over there. She told 
me about eight months or so ago they never came over there at all. 
All of a sudden about 2,000 pieces came over there at once. The 
disciplinarian over there was on a vacation, and she was surprised 
wh«n they came over. She said there never was a piece since she 
was here, and she said she was here a year and a half. 

The Chairman. Do they detail boys from the school to assist you ? 

Mr. NoNAST. Oh, yes. 

The Chairman. Do the}' learn the work pretty rapldh? 

Mr. Nonast. Some do, and others do not. 

The Chairman. How^ man>' are detailed for }our assistants ? 

Mr. Nonast. It is never the same. Sometimes we only have half 
tJie boys and a week afterwards we may have twice as many. 

The Chairman. Do they learn the trade? Do they stay long 
enough to learn it ? 

Mr. NoNxiST. Some do, and others don't. 

Senator Lane. How many learn it in a year? 

Mr. Nonast. It is hard to say. Some stay three years, othei-s five 
^"ears. Some do not stav six n.ionths. On an average J have about 
15 or 16. 

The Chairman. How many Indian boys in the school since you 
came here, do you su])pose, have learned the trade ? 

Mr. Nonast. I could not say that outright. I could look it up in 
the boote, but I could not tell the number now. 

The Chairman. About how many ? 

Senator Lane. Twenty? 

Mr. Nonast. Oh, no; more than that. I have been here 12 yeare, 
and then I Jiave got an average of about 15 boys a year, so that 
would be 150. 

The Chairman. How many of that number have learned the trade 
and would be able to pureue it ? 

Mr. Nonast. I know about a dozen that are working at it. Most 
of them have then own shops. 

The Chairman. Why is it these boys that are detailed to you do 
not go on there and learn the trade ? 

Mr. Nonast. Because the most of them do not stay long enougji, 
and I get them too late. 

The Chairman. Why Is it they do not stay? Are they detailed 
somewhere else ? 

Mr. Nonast. They are; and they are in the hospital, and in the 
guard house. 

The Chairman. Are they sent on outing parties ? 

Mr. Nonast. Yes; and they are gone five or six months. 

Senator Lane. Why do you get them too late? 

Mr. Nonast. I often get a bo\- tJiat lias only six months to stay. 
It is underetood that tjiey will su]^ply me witji young boys wlien they 
fii-st como liore, but it is not so. 

The Chairman. Wlw details tjiese bovs ? 


Mr. NoxAST. I believe it is the disciplinarian. 

The Chairman. How it any bo}'s could you take there and teach 
this work if the}' were allowed to you i 

Mr. NoNAST. Oh, I could have about 25 or 30 if I liad them. 

Tlie Chairman. Could you teach them ? Can the Indian boys 
learn the tailor work? 

Mr. NoNAST. Some of them are very good at it. Others, some 
wa}' or other they do not like the tailor shop as well as other shops, 
because it is kind of sedentary aiul confining. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. You are the disciidinarian at Carlisle now? 

Mr. McKean. Yes. 

The Chairman. How long have you worked in that capacity? 

Mr. McKean. Just about 10 months. 

The Chairman. Were you here before that ? 

Mr. McKean. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You have been connected with the school just 
about 10 months? 

Mr. McKean. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What are the conditions in the school with refer- 
ence to order or disorder and discipline generally ? 

Mr. McKean. Well, I have charge of the large boys, and one of 
the great troubles I have encountered here is the habit of boys going 
to town and getting liquor. 

The Chairman. Is there much of that ? 

Mr. McKean. Why, they tell me, that the last year and the last 
two years — especially the last year — there has not been as much as 
formerly, due to the fact that, especially among the athletes, there is 
a better class of boys. 

The Chairman. What efforts do you make to suppress that ? 

Mr. McKean. At times when the boys go to town, on town days, I 
am down there, and I give the officers instructions about watching 
out for these loopholes that these boys are liable to drop into. Be- 
sides that, at our assemblies, I give the boys general talks about 
that matter. Then those that do get drunk and come back in that 
condition I put them in the guardhouse. 

The Chairman. How long do you usually keep them there for 
getting drunk ? 

Mr. McKean. Well, from a week to 10 or 12 days. 

The Chairman. What is the feeling of the pupils generally toward 
the superintendent ? 

Mr. McKean. Well, the boys in my quarters have not a very cor- 
dial feeling toward the superintendent. 

The Chairman. How does it manifest itself ? 

Mr. McKean. By referring to him as a ''Jew" and "sheeney." 
Recently I have gone through the quarters and taken down cartoons 
of a slurring nature about him. Well, the general feeling among 
my boys is one of disrespect. 

The Chairman. Do you know what it is due to ? 

Mr. McKean. I do not. 


The Chairman. Have you attempted to restrain it and sup- 
press it? 

Mr. McKean. I have. I iiave tried to impress upon the boys that 
it was respect due to the position, and the individual should not be 
considered always in this matter; that he was the superintendent of 
the school, and as superintendent they were to respect him and I was 
to obey him. 

The Chairman. Our attention has been called to the cases of some 

pupils who have been placed in jail, among them the case of 

• and — ■ , I think it was. You preferred a charge 

against them for fornication under the laws of Pennsylvania ? 

Mr. McKean. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How did you come to do that ? Was that under 
the superintendent's instructions ? 

Mr. McKean. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Or on your own motion? 

Mr. McKean. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Was it in conformity with your best judgment 
that these parties should be confined in the county jail? 

Ml-. McKean. My personal judgment in the matter was that they 
should be punished in a different way, but my instructions were to 
take them there. 

The Chairman. Ag a matter of fact, the laws of the State of Penn- 
sylvania do not punish offenses of that sort by imprisonment. They 
are only punishable by fine. Was your attention called to that ? 

Mr. McKean. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you know how it happened that Judge Sadler 
sentenced to them to jail for 60 days for that offense? 

Mr. McKean. Those two were confined in the jail, and I beheve 

the judge told me to go down and see and see if he 

would plead guilty, and he did, and I can not say now whether I 
informed him or the district attorney. They were both there 
together, anyway. He sent the attorney down there, and he pleaded 
guilty, and that was the sentence. 

The Chairman. Did you hear the sentence imposed ? 

Mr. McKean. I did not. 

The Chairman. Did you know at that time that under the laws 
of Pennsylvania they could not be sent to prison for that offense? 

Mr. McKean. No, sir. 

Senator Lane. Did they plead guilty to that after they were in 

Mr. McKean. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane Not in the court room ? 

Mr. McKean. I am pretty sure. Now, I have had several cases 
down there, similar ones; quite a few; three or four, I should say, 

and I am quite positive that it was in jail that pleaded 


Senator Lane. Not in the court room? 

Mr. McKean. No; I do not thmk so. 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact, he served there about 70 days, 
I believe. Do you know whether Jie was ])rovided with a change of 
clothing during that time ? 

Mr. McKean. I telephoned down to the jail, and I believe it wag 
the warden's wife, or some woman tjicre, answered the phone, and 


I told lier that whatever clothing wanted at any tmie to let 

me know and I would send it. 

The Chairman. Did you send him any clothing at any time that 
you remember? 

Mr. McKean. No, sir; I do not think that I did. 

The Chairman. Who has the power to administer corporal pun- 
ishment under your rules and regulations here ? 

Mr. McKean. Well, the superintendent is generally opposed to 
corporal punishment. He has never personally delegated any 
powers that I know of to any employees to administer that. 

The Chairman. Have you any authority to whip ? 

Mr. McKean. Well, I don't know. I tell you, it is like this: I do 
not make a practice of whipping any boys. I taught school before I 
came into the Indian Service, and occasionally a little whipping does 
a boy good; but, as a general proposition, it is a bad thing, and I 
avoid it. 

The Chairman. Do you know of being whipped by 

Mr. Stauffer? 

Mr. McKean. I heard that she was. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether he had any authority to 
administer punishment to her? 

Mr. McKean. As I say, I do not think that in liis capacity of 
musician here — it would be a different thing than if he were disci- 
plinarian or matron. I do not think that he would have any authority 
to administer any corporal punishment. 

The Chairman. You were not present at any time while that 
occurred ? 

Mr. McKean. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Were you present while some boys were whipped 
in the jail? 

Mr. McKean. No, sir; that was before I came here. 

The Chairman. Do you know a former student by the name of 
Montreville Yuda ? 

Mr. McKean. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you look into his case ? 

Mr. McKean. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Under wiiose instructions ? 

Mr. McKean. Mr. Friedman's. 

The Chairman. What were your instructions ? 

Mr. McKean. The first I had to do with Montreville, I was in- 
structed to take him off the school grounds; that* he was expelled or 
sent away from here. I did so; and it seems that ho struck a job in 
Carlisle with some ice-cream firm there, and the superintendent told 
me he was an undesirable character to have in the Carlisle School or 
its vicinity, and he was convinced that he had practices and was doing 
things that were detrimental to the boys. 

The Chairman. Did he tell you what they were? 

Mr. McKean. Wliy, he thought, for one thing — the only thing that 
was definite that I could say was that he had been getting them 
whisky, but that was a surmise. The instructions I got were to find 
out something tangible upon that boy by which the court could get 
hold of him and order him out of town. 

The Chairman. You were instructed to get evidence against him ? 


Mr. McKean. Yes. 

The Chairman. Did you do it? 

Mr. McKean. I tried it. 

The Chairman. Did you succeed ? 

Mr. McKean. I interviewed the policeman down town about this 
boy, and he told me that he thought — that he was quite positive that 
Montreville Yuda had been getting whisky himself, and that he could 
find out all about it. That was before I went on my vacation. After 
I came back I learned that during this time this big, tall, red-headed 
detective — Bentley is his name, I think — had ordered him out of 
town; by whose instructions I could not sa}^, whether it was the 
court's or not. He went to a town up the railroad here a short 

The Chairman. Chambersburg ? 

Mr. McKean. I think so; yes, sir; and found employment up there. 
The next time I saw Montreville Yuda on the street here he was limp- 
ing along; and I spoke and shook hands with him, and asked him what 
the trouble was; and he told me he had dropped a cake of ice on his 
foot; and he wanted to know if I was going to try to drive him out of 
Carlisle. I told him I had nothing against him, and as long as he 
behaved himself I did not think he would have any trouble, but what- 
ever instructions I got I would have to carry them out. But so far as 
my personal relations with him were concerned, they were all right. 

The Chairman. Did you find any e\ddence that the young man had 
been getting whisky for the Indian pupils ? 

Mr. McKean. I found that he had, while he was a student here, 
before this time, brought some of the boys down into a disorderly 
house down in Carlisle, had brought several of them there, but they 
were boys that were then away from the school and have gone back 
hom^. That was the only evidence. 

The Chairman. You did not find anything with reference to stu- 
dents ? 

Mr. McKean, No, sir; not of recent date. 

The Chairman. You have not put in the record the trouble you 
had with that boy who hit you. 

Mr. McKean. That is an individual case. I think ho did that him- 
self, and I am convinced that does not represent the school. 

Representative Stephens. Do you know of any case where Mr. 
Friedman has ordered Yuda or any other boy, after leaving the school, 
to leave the town or leave the county when they had emplojinent ? 

Mr. McKean. Tliis is the stand Mr. Friedman told me the school 
took: Students, after they left this school — he did not want them 
around this vicinity. He wanted them away from here, and took 
means to send them away. I do not think he ever gave me any in- 
structions to drive them away or disturb them in their occupations, 
but he told me that when students qiiit the school he wanted them 
away from here and not around Carlisle or its vicinity. 

Representative Stephens. Did he give any reason for that ? 

Mr. McKean. The only reason that he gave was that on account 
of the girls going down town and that young man there, there might 
be serious trouble in that respect. 



Tho witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

Representative CHARTER. What is your official position? 

Miss Sweeney. Teacher. 

Representative Carter. Miss Sweeney, could j^ou tell us anything 
that you think would be for the good of this institution? 
. Miss Sweeney. I presume I can not add very much more to wliat 
you have akeady heard. 

Representative Carter. We would like to have any suggestions 
you might make. 

Miss Sweeney. I think if there were tact used in discipline we 
would have a nmch better school. That is what is lacking. 

Representative Carter. That you are short on discipline ? 

Miss Sweeney. The superintendent — in my opinion — -he has no 
discipline. He evidently has not had very much experience in that 
line, because he does such funny things, you know^, that are detri- 
mental to the discipline of the school. 

Representative Carter. Do you know anything of his attitude 
toward the students and their feeling toward him ? 

Miss Sweeney. Now^, I have been here four years. I came here 
four years ago in November, and there were students here at the 
time I came that I had known before, and I was shocked at the feel- 
ing of those students toward Mr. Friedman at that time. It seems 
they had an investigation the May before I came. I could not tell 
you the nature of the trouble then, but I was told by the pupils at 
that time that they very much — that the feeling of the pupils was 
that they were going to have an uprising among themselves and drive 
him off and any employee that was in sympathy with him. 

Representative Carter. Do you know anything of their expressing 
then- dislike in the wa}' of hissing, etc. ? 

Miss Sweeney. You could ask that better from somebody who 
was here at the time; but I understood that the band refused to 

Elay for him. I could not give you an}' definite idea about what 
appened, because I only heard it second handed. 

Rei)resentative Carter. Have }ou an\ du-ect information about 
the morals of the school and tlie pupils ? 

Miss Sweeney. You see, it requu'es a very strong man in the 
school, and i presume we get the worst class of pupils; a class of 
pupils that can not be controlled in other schools. Now, during the 
time Miss Gaither was here Miss Gaither had what we considered 
very good tact ui controlling those girls, and she gained the love and 
esteem of the girls; but she had no sup])ort from the sui)erintendent. 

Representative Carter. Why did she leave? 

Miss Sweeney. He was instrumental in getting her to leave. 

Re])resentative Carter. He had her transferred ? 

Mlss Sweeney. So far as i can see, if he takes a ])ei"sonal dislike 
to you it makes no difference how good an employee vou are or how 
well you are doing \our duty toward the Government. 

Re])resentative Carter. What do you know about Mr. Stauffer? 
What is his influence ? 

Miss Sweeney. I do not consider Mr. Stauffer a ver\' great addi- 
tion to our facultw 


Representative Carter. Do you know of any specific things he 
has done ? 

Mlss Sweeney. There was a lady, Mrs. James Thorpe, told me a 
story; she was not going into details, more because she knew I had 
already heard it; but she went into details with the sisters, and the 
sisters told me; and she spoke of it again to me, and I did not ask 
her to go into details because I had already heard the story. It was a 
very immoral story, and it was in connection with the — he said, • 
what I understand, that the sisters and priests were living an im- 
moral life. 

Representative Carter. Who said that ? 

Miss Sweeney. Mr. Stauffer. I understand she went to his room 
to take .her lesson, and he talked in such a way to her that she got 
frightened; and she said that she sat there and took this language 
from the man smiply because he was an employee and she was a 

Representative Carter. Indecent language ? 

Miss Sweeney. Indecent language; and she said, "I felt like 
clawing his face." 

Representative Carter. And he said that the priests and the 
sisters were living unmorally ? 

Miss Sweeney. Yes; and he talked in such a broad way to her 
that she was horrified. She, of course, was brought up by the sisters, 
and she knew he was telKng what was false. I think he has been in- 
strumental in making considerable trouble here between Mr. Whitwell 
and Mr. Friedman. 

Re]iresentative Carter. Have you eA^er had any trouble with 
Mr. Friedman yourself ? 

Miss Sweeney. I Jiave never had any words with him, but he has 
treated me very badly since the first of September. 

Representative Carter. In what way, Miss Sweeney ? 

Miss Sweeney. Now, to go back, I think that wlien I got my pro- 
motion this automatic promotion you know, and the fact I was a 
Catholic- he did not speak to me after I got it for some five or six 
weeks. Then when he got into trouble with Mr. Whitwell he was very 
anxious to get my friendship. 

Representative Carter. When did he and Mr. Whitwell get into 
trouble ? 

Miss Sweeney. Sometime in October. Of course, he had been so 
disagreeable over the school work. It was an old grudge, it seems. 
And then, of course, Mr. Whitwell lost his temper, and he made a 
charge against him 

Representative Carter. What charge ? 

Miss Sweeney. Mr. Whitwell called him a "dirty skunk." 

Representative Carter. Does Mr. Friedman attempt to discriminate 
against people on account of their religion? 

Miss Sweeney. He did; I think he is very anxious — you see, 
Father Stock and Mr. Friedman had some trouble in regard to 
religious matters in regard to pupils going to cojifession. Father 
Stock took it to Washington. The commissioner had ordered Mr. 
Friodmaji to send the children to church with their officers, and I 
think that made him very angry. 

Representative Carter. Does that extend to the students too ? 
Does he discriminate against the children too ? 


Miss Sweeney. Since the time of Col. Pratt, when the children 
went to confession and commiuiion every second Sunday, they went 
down in charge of their officers, but Mr. Friedman said that the girls 
could not go down unless they had a chaperone, and he detailed me 
to chaperone the children at half-past 9 to the regular mass, where the 
boys went too. Of course, Father Stock could not get any lady to 
come up for them from the town and make it a regular work. So 
I think that was really his motive, for it was taking revenge in a 
way upon Father Stock. 


The mtness was duly sworn b}' the chairman. 

The Chairman. You are the matron at Carlisle School? 

Miss RiDENOUR. I am the matron. 

The Chairman. How long have you been here ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. One year and a few days. 

The Chairman. How long have you been in the Indian Service, 
Miss Ridenour ? 

Miss RiDENOLTR. About 16 years. 

The Chairman. Where did you serve before coming here ? 

Miss RiDENOLTt. Mascalero, N. Mex.; Hoopa, Cal., and Phoenix, 

The Chairman. How did you find the conditions among the pupils 
under your jurisdiction with reference to discipUne when you first 
came here? 

Miss Ridenour. Pretty bad. 

The Chairman. How would you describe it? 

Miss Ridenour. Impudent, saucy 

The Chairman. Was there much immorality among them? 

Miss Ridenour. Yes, sir; there was some. I could not tell you 
how much. Right at first I did not fuid this out. I was here a short 
time before I discovered the first cases. 

The Chairman. What is the condition now with reference to the 
same subject? Has it improved any? 

Miss Ridenour. It seems to me that it is better. 

The Chairman. Have you had much difficulty in handling the 

Miss Ridenour. I have had some. 

The Chairman. Have you had many conflicts with them? 

Miss Ridenour. Several. 

The Chairman. What is your relationship with them in a general 
way? Is it cordial or raiher strained? 

Miss Ridenour. It has been very stramed of late. 

The Chairman. How long has it been since that began ? 

Miss Ridenour. Sometime before Christmas, I think it started up. 
Just since New Years it has been the worst. The first outbreak was 
on New Year's Day. 

The Chairman. Describe that outbreak. 

Miss Ridenour. It was not just an outbreak. Really they dis- 
obe3'ed me and went over my head. 

Tlie Chairman. Appealed to the superintendent over you? 

Miss Ridenour. Yes; appealed to the superintendent without 
permission, and I would have given them that permission. 


The Chairman. Was that about the skating expedition? 

Miss RiDENOUR. I was trying to get permission at the time over 
the phone, to find out if he would allow us to go, but I happened to 
see them sneeking out to go, and I did not know where they went. 
I followed them to the door to see, while I was waiting for Mr. Fried- 
man to come to the telephone. 

The Chairman. Did 3'ou have a controversy with them? 

Miss RiDENOUR. I just called them in and talked to them about 
it and asked them why they did it. 

The Chairman. You reproved them? 

Miss RiDENOUR. I reproved them; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did the superintendent sustain you? He sent 
them back to you, did he not ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. That was not taken up with the superintendent 
at all. 

The Chairman. They never did get their appeal before him ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. He told the girls he would see me about it. That 
is, he sent word to them by his wife. She went to the door. 

The Chairman. How many girls have you under your jurisdiction? 

Miss RiDENOUR. Two hundred and thirty-five right here on the 
grounds. I have 87 in the country that I have a good deal of work 
to do for. 

The Chairman. Do you reside in the same building where they do ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. I do. 

The Chairman. Wliat is their general conduct in their rooms with 
reference to being orderly or disorderly? 

Miss RiDENOUR. In the way of keeping their rooms? 

The Chairman. I mean in the way of being quiet and reserved. 

Miss RiDENOUR. As a rule, they are very good. 

The Chairman. Now, how do they keep their rooms? 

Miss RiDENOUR. If we keep after them, they keep them prett} 

The Chairman. You have some trouble? 

Miss RiDENOUR. Certainly; we have to be after them. 

The Chairman. Do you remember the case of Jidia Hardin? 

Miss RiDENOUR. The girl who was whipped by Mr. Stauffer; 
yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I wish you would teU about that. 

Miss RiDENOUR. Begin at the beginning and tell the whole thing ? 

The Chairman. Yes; briefly. 

Miss RiDENOUR. Julia signed to go to the country for tlie first party 
last spring. Everything went along all right until the day every- 
thing was prepared to go, and when the time came to pack trunks 
and get ready tliose for whom places had been assigned — I think we 
packed the trunks the day before. When I sent for her to come and 
pack lier trunk she refused to come. In the first place, I announced 
m the mornmg that the girls who were to go were not to go to school. 
When it came time for her to pack her trimk I sent to the school- 
house for her and she did not come. I had to send Miss Aystin for 
her. It was getting late antl all, and she would not hurry at aU. 
She just lagged along and said she was not going and we could not 
make her. so I appealed to Mrs. La Flesche, the outing manager, and 
she saitl that Julia must go. 


Then we took it up to find out what her excuse was. She wanted 
to wait for tlie next party, and I beHeve she said she did not have a 
trunk; that she wanted to get the money that she expected for a new 
trunk, as her trunk was not good. Then we excused her, and I 
rushed aroung and got another girl ready on short notice to go in her 

So it went on until the next time came. When the next party 

The Chairman. How long was that after the first occasion ? 

]\Iiss RiDEXouR. I think there was about four or six weeks between. 
When it came time to pack trunks again I announced to her that 
they had secured a place for her and that she would have to go the 
next day. She told me she was not going. I did not pay much atten- 
tion to it; I just supposed it was some of her foll}^ and that she would go. 

She went off to school again and we had to send for her. We had 
to go for her three or four times that day, one or the other of us, and 
it was almost train time; that is, just time to get her packed to go 
when the rest were to go. I did everything to try to pursuade her 
that I could and to show to her that the only thing to do was to get 
ready and go, and slie still refused. 

I went up to Mr. Friedman and toltl him I could not do anything 
with Julia; that she refused to go and said she would not go for any- 
body. Mr. Friedman sent Mrs. La Flesche down, and she would not 
do anything for her. Mr. Friedman said she must go. I went up 
to her room and took her up there; I had almost to push her to her 
room. I told her she must go anyhow and keep her promise this time, 
and she would not do it. 

Representative Carter. Did she have a trunk then ? 

^'liss RiDENOUR. No; she had drawn her money and spent it for 
other things. 

I went down and called Mr. Friedman again, and Mr. Friedman 
sent Mr. Stauffer; I think, and he said he happened to come into the 
office at that time, so he called him. Mr. Stauffer came down and 
I took liim up to her room, and he talked to her, and we both talked 
to her and tried to pursuade her, and she just talked back to us and 
told us there was nobody would make her do what she did not want 
to do. 

Mr. Stauffer went back and went to Mr. Friedman again, and she 
ran off outside and told the girls how she talked to us, right in front 
of the building here, and declared she would not go. But I went 
after her and got her back in the office, and I was talking to her 
when Mr. Stauffer came back. He took the case then and began to 
talk to her and asked her if she would go and she said she would not. 
He told her what she would have to do, and she got smart and imper- 
tinent and said saucy things back, and he slapped her face. I think 
he slapped her a couple of times, and she doubled up and dropped 
down on the floor. 1 think he tried to get her up; we both tried to 
get her up and we failed, and he pulled her over and spanked her. 

The Chairman. What did he use ? A board ? 

^liss RiDENOUR. I wont and got a piece of kindling. 

The Chairman. How many times did he strike lior ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. I do not know, but it was not half enough. 

The Chairman. You think she did not get enough punishment ? 


Miss RiDENOUR. Mrs. La Flesclie, she came in, and Mr. Stauffer 
told her Jiow the thing was, and she said that was what she deserved. 
She said too that slie had not got half enough. 

The Chairman. Really, don't yon feel in a case like that— she is 
about 18 years old, I believe — don't you think such a case had better 
be handled in a different way than by having a man take a young 
lady and spank her with a board ? Do you tliink it helped the 
discipline of the school ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. I certainly think it did. 

The Chairman. Was that your intention in having it done ? 

Miss RiDENOLTR. To do the riglit thing for the scliool and the gu'l. 

Mrs. La Flesche came in and she talked to her again and she would 
not get up. Then Mr. Whitwell came in and he talketl to her and she 
would not get up for a long time. He told her she would have to go 
and sign the check, and if she did not we would have to send her to a 
reform school. So she finally got up and signed the check. 

The Chairman. What is the rule about those outing parties ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. It is their own free will to go if they want to, but 
after they sign and all arrangements are made they are compelled to 

The Chairman. They are given the option ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. They are given due consideration, and they are 
given one chance to go back on their word, if they want to, and the 
next time they are made to go through. 

Representative Carter. She signed up a second time, did she ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. This was the same time; she promised to go 
the next time. 

In the meantime Mr. Whitwell said she should be locked up. We 
did that, so that the girls would not get to her and persuade her to do 
something else. Mr. Whitw^ell went with me and took her to the 
little lock-up we had, and locked her up in there. One of the matrons 
went into the little clothing room, whicli is right off that room, and 
she called to the matron and asked if she would send for Mr. Stauffer. 

Mr. Stauffer came riglit back and he and I went right back to the 
little lock-up and she apologized to both of us, and said she would go 
on and be no more trouble at all. Then, rather than leave her in the 
lock-up over night, we bothi told her we had forgiven her- — she asked 
us if we would, and if it would make any difference to any one else, 
and we told her we knew it wouhl not. I took her to my room and 
kept her in my room, because I did not want her out where the girls 
were, for fear the girls would get liold of her and persuade her to 
go back. 

In the meantime the boy she had been infatuated with during this 
time, he found out she was in my room. He went up to the window 
and had — she told the whole story. I trusted her and let her stay in 
my room, and then she saw the boy — by tlie way, he has caused 
more trouble than anything else. 

The Chairman. Wiio is lie ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. Tony Largeknees. 

The Chairman. How did she get along? 

Miss RiDENOUR. When she first went out she got along splendidly. 
She got very good re{)()rts. She wrote me a letter thanking me for 
what we had done for lier and said she was glad we had done it, and 
it had done her lots of y;ood. And when she came back she walked into 



the office and said she was glad Mr. Stauffer and I made her go, and 
she has been one of the best girls up to about New Year's that we 
have ever liad. 

The Chairman. Did you ever liaA'e any trouble ^vith her other than 
that time ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. I came in January, and that was soon after I 
came. Before that she was — I always thought she was- — one of the 
leaders in throwing things. That is what they did when I first came 

The Chairman. They do not do that now? 

Miss RiDENOUR. No, sir: they have been very good. 

The Chairman. Was her conduct reported to the people she went 

Miss RiDENotTR. Yes, su\ She was taken out to the country all 
the way by Mrs. I^a Flesche, so they would know what the}'' had to 
deal with. I suppose she took her to Philadelphia 

The Chairman. Were they instructed to curtail her privileges on 
account of her conduct before she left the school ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. 1 could not teU you that. 

The Chairman. You do not know anything about what information 
was communicated ? 

Miss RiDENOLTR. No. But I know some of the letters that were 
written back. She wrote to this boy some postal cards with all sorts 
of stuff on them 

The Chairman. Anything improper on them ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. She wrote to this Tony w^hat she would do, that 
she would run away and stay out all night — i)ut it on a postal card 
and sent it through the post office. The boy was under punishment 
at that time, and Mr. McKean noticed this card. 

The Chairman. You are satisfied there was no foundation for her 
statements that she had been so imprudent in her conduct ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. They made a thorough investigation, and I think 
they found out. The people said that she and another girl ran away 
to a dance. Both the comitry mothers said she had never been out 
of the house to their knowledge, they could not find out anything. 
Nothing was ever said to the girl about it at all. 

The Chairman. Do you know the feeling between Mr. Friedman 
and the pupils generally? Do you know whether the relation be- 
tween them is strained, or cordial? 

Miss RiDENOUR. Well, at present it is strained, and at one time be- 
fore it was. We opened up school with a very good feeling in Septem- 
ber. Everything just seemed to be going on splendidly until the last 
four or six weeks. 

The Chairman. To what do you attribute the disaffection among 
your ])upils ? 

Miss RiDENom. Well, I am not real ])ositive, but I have felt that 
there were em|)l()yees that have influenced the children. I have felt 
that there was outside influence somewhere. 

The Chairman. Have you any information as to that, or anv proof 
of it ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. I do not know that I have. 

The Chairman. Is there much drinking among the boys. Miss 

1200 Carlisle indl^n school. 

Miss RiDENOUR. 1 can not say. They have had a good many cases 
of drunkenness here, I think. 

The Chairman. Of course, you have no special jurisdiction over 
things of that sort ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. Only keeping them away from the girls. 

The Chairman. Do you have much trouble in keeping the boys 
awav from the girls ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. I have had lots of trouble. 

The Chairman. What precautions do you take, and what plans do 
you pursue to prevent immoral relations between them ? 
' Miss Ridenour. Well, I do not aUow them to go anywhere un- 
chaperoned if I can help it. I keep as close a watch upon them in 
ever}^ respect as I can. 

The Chairman. I think it is in evidence that you reprove them 
whenever you can. 

Miss RiDENOUR. I think if you ask them they will know why. 
They have done a great many things. The girls themselves opened 
the door. The last case we had, one of the girls said in a letter that 
the girl did it, and it was not the boys. They had to take a hasp off 
the door, and they had to get a key some way. This was after this 
trouble seemed to take hold of them. I attributed it mostly to this 
quarantine business. We were quarantined on account of measles. 
We were quarantined here for two months, and we have not been 
allowed to go down town. We had to close the socials, and the boys 
and girls said it was a pretext just to keep them from having socials. 
That\ the way they would talk, and I think that is the way that door 
was opened. 

The Chairman. On that occasion was there evidence of improper 
relationship between them, or was that just an effort to associate 

together? • i i p 

Miss Ridenour. I do not know. The girls said— the four that we 
caught in this affair claimed that they were in a spirit of fun, and the 
boys said they came there for that purpose. 

Tne Chairman. How were the boys punished? 

Miss Ridenour. Tney were locked up for a few days. I locked up 
the girls here for a week, and they were told they were to be deprived 
of all privilege of socials, going to town, and drawing money until 
after commencement. I have carried that out so far, but one of the 
boys has been to three receptions. That is what the boys are angry 
at'me about, because they think I am punishing the girls, and the 
boys have been so rebelhous against me. 

Tne Chairman. I have not found any evidence of that. 

Miss Ridenour. I can not go across the campus here that they do 
not all shout, "Put her out." 

Tne Chairman. Have you heard them make similar displays toward 
the su])erintcndent? Have you heard them call him "Jev.," etc.? 

Miss Ridenour. I have noticed the Iroys doing it. But they do it 
to me every time I go on the campus, if there are a few of them 
together, (u- even one. One was passing the dining room the other 
evening, and he shouted at me, "Let them out," meaning, I suppose, 
that I'xvas kee])iug the girls too close. 

The Chairman. For my part, Miss Ridenour, I feel you have had 
some very hard work, and you have been very unfortiuiatc in this 
strained relation that has arisen. I would like to ask, if you care to 


suggest it, just what you think are the remedies i( r these conditi^'us. 
I do not mean to urge it, because you are not charged with that 
responsibility. If you have anything you want to suggest I would like 
to have you do it. 

Miss RiDEXOiiR. I feel positive that there is somebody in.fluencing 
the children, both against me and Mr. If you can not 
find tluit out and remove it I do not think there is any remedy. That 
is what I feel. 

Represeiitative Carter. You think it is not confined to the chil- 
dren ? 

Miss RiDEXOLTR. I am almost positive it is not. Whenever I have 
trouble with the children they go across to a certain teacher's 

Representative Carter. Would you mmd telling us which one ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. Miss Sweeney is one of them, and the Catholic 
children are the ones she gets over there. And it appears that if I 
correct a girl for something the next thing I know she is slipping out 
and going over there, and she is not supposed to go without permis- 
sion. When I found out the things that were going on, I got after 
them about it. They think I am harsh. 

The Chairman^. Do you think it would be possible to establish more 
amicable relations with them by relaxing that harshness, if you will 
call it that ? 

Miss RiDEXOUR. My harshness ? My discipline ? 

The Chairmax. Your method of discipline. 

Miss RiDEXOUR. Yes; if I just let them go 

The Chairmax. You think the primary consideration is that they 
want more privileges ? 

Miss RiDEXOUR. They would just as soon I would go down to my 
room and stay all day and let them run the office. They have told 
me that Miss Gaither did that. They would come in — 5, 6, 8, or 10 — 
and sit on my desk, and I had to order them out. I told them the 
office was a place of business, and they could not come in there and 
talk about one thing and another. Whatever I have done, I have tried 
to do for their interest. Of course, sometimes I have been angry, and 
I have had occasion to be. If anybody else can go in there and do it, 
I would like to see them. 

Representative Stephens. Do any of the girls come to you and con- 
sult with you in a motherly way ? 

Miss RiDEXOUR. Some of them. 

Representative Stephexs. How many ? 

Miss RiDEXOUR. I could not say. 

Representative Stephexs. As a rule, they refuse to come to you 
unless they have to? Is that correct? 

Miss RiDEXOUR. I do not think so. There are some that do not 
come around. 

Representative Stephexs. Do you believe it would be possible for 
Mr. Friedman, in the condition you know the school to be in now, 
to reinstate himself in the good graces of these children ? 

Miss RiDEXOUR. I do not see why not. I positively feel it would 
be the downfall of this school if Mr. Friedman is removed now. I do 
not see why he could not. He has done everything that he could for 
those children so far as I can see. 

35601— PT 11—14 16 


Representative Stephens. You say there is an estrangement now ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. It seems to be. They are calling him names 

Representative Stephens. The relations will have to be changed 
from what they are now before the school will be put upon a proper 
footing. Is that true? 

Miss RiDENOUR. I suppose so. I have seen several little thmgs that 
have caused me to think, but I could not positively prove it myself. 
I have heard one girl say that she was called into Mr. WhitweU's 

office . , . 

Representatvie Carter. Mr. Wliitwell has always assisted you in 

correcting the girls ? .-, -, ^ ■ 

Miss RiDENOUR. I do not know that I ever called upon him. 
Representative Carter. Didn't you call upon him in the Julia 
Hardin case ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. Mr. Friedman called on him. 
Representative Carter. He assisted you then, didn't he? 
Miss RiDENOUR. He came over; yes. 

Representative Carter. The conduct of t}ie girls toward you has 
been very bad, >ou say ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. Yes, sh-; at tunes. 

Representative Carter. Did tjiat begin as soon as you came here ? 
Miss RiDENOUR. Yes, su\ 

Representative Carter. Can you give us any idea about what the 
cause of that was ? Do you know why they seemed immediately to 
take a dislike to you? 

Miss RiDENOUR. No; i do not. 

Representative Carter. I would like to know something about 
this trouble that }ou said started in January. 

Miss RiDENOUR. Well, they just got unrul>-, and disobeyed. 
Representative Carter. Do you know any cause for that? 
Miss RiDENOUR. I attributed it to the quarantine. That is what 
I thought all the time it was, because the}- said we were using tiiat as 
a ])retext to keep the boys and ghls from getting together. 

Representative Carter. How long has Julia Hardm been in school i 

Mi-'s RiDENOUR. I could not tell you. 

Representative Carter. Was she here when }ou came? 

Miss RiDENOUR. Yes, sir. . 

Representative Carter. What is lier school rating? Do >ou 

know ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. i could not tell you. 

Representative Carter. Do you know v.liat lier ratings were tor 
deportment ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. No. 11-11 

Representative Carter. Have >-ou ever )iad any trouble with her 
except tjiis one time? 

Miss RiDENOUR. Not an^- special trouble. When 1 firet came here 
I tjiouglit she was one of them- I liave more trouble with the girls 
m the business department than any otjier ghls. 

Ropi'esentative Carter. Wjiat do you attirbute tliat to? 

Miss RiDENOUR. Liberties tjiev take. 

Re])resentative Carter. You do not think there was anyone m the 
business de]iartment trving to ])rejudice }-ou ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. Oh, no; I think they were given liberties over 


Representative Carter. Hmv many girls have been locked up 
since you have been }iere ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. 1 could not tell you. A good nmny have. 

Representative Carter. ^Miere do you lock them up? 

Miss RiDENOUR. In some roon;s in the build uig. 

Re]>resentative Carter. Is this the onh' girl you have had occasion 
to inflict corporal punishment on ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. No, sir. 

Representative Carter. You )iave had to punish others? 

Miss RiDENOUR. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. How many? 

Miss RiDENOUR. I do not know. I have slapped several of their 
mouths for impudence, and I have spanked two, or strapped them. 

Representative Carter. This is tne only time that anyone has 
been called in to assist ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. That is the only time. I called Mr. Denny in one 
morning, but there was nothing done. He just talked to the girl. 

The Chairman. Who was that girl you heard say Mr. Whitwell 
called her in his office and told hor what to say over here ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. It was not the girl that was called in; it was one of 
the other girls that was. Maud French, I think, was the girl. 

The Chairman. Where was she when you heard her make that 
remark ? 

Miss RiDENOUR. It was in the hall at the cjuarters. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. How long have you been here, Doctor ? 

Dr. Rendtorff. I came on the 1st day of January. 

The Chairman. Where did you come from here ? 

Dr. Rendtorff. Anadarko, Okla. 

The Chairman. You are the physician at the school ? 

Dr. Rendtorff. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What is the general condition of health in the 
school ? 

Dr. Rendtorff. Generally pretty fair. 

The Chairman. How were you received when you came by the 
superintendent and others ? 

Dr. Rendtorff. Oh, with anything but the courtesy that I 
thought was due me. 

The Chairman. Tell me about it just a little in detail. 

Dr. Rendtorff. Well, sir, I stepped to the door and rang. Mr. 
Friedman came out and shook me very warmly by the hand, and called 
me by some name which I have forgotten. I said, "You have made 
a mistake; I am Dr. Rendtorff." His entire demeanor changed im^ 
mediately. He asked me to step in. He said a few words — asked 
me why I came down here when tnere was a $40,000 hospital building 
where I was coming from, and spoke a few more words. He then tola 
me to go to the hospital with Dr. Allen, who was present in the room 
at the time. I went with Dr. Allen, and m}^ conveisation with Mr. 
Friedman was not very long. 

The Chairman. Do you know why he resented your coming down 
here ? 


Dr. Rendtorff. I can not say that I know of any reason. 

The Chairman. Is there much tuberculosis in this school ? 

Dr. Rendtorff. From my own observation— I have not had a 
very good oportunity to look all the children over. I have been pretty 
busy here with measles. I did look all the records over though, when 
I first came, which is quite a job. At that time I made some notes, 
which I had not intended to use in this way at all. There are 18 cases 
of glandular tuberculosis. 

The Chairman. How many cases of pulmonary tuberculosis ? 

Dr. Rendtorff. I do not know; I have not got that down. But I 
have discovered since I came three cases of pulmonary tuberculosis, 
two of which were so far along that I had to send them home. 

The Chairman. Is there much trachoma ? 

Dr. Rendtorff. I really can not tell you the percentage. There 
is quite a bit. They have been pretty well taken care of. 

The Chairman. That was the statement of Dr. Allen. He said, 
however, that about 70 or 75 per cent of the pupils have trachoma in 
some of its stages, but that it is pretty well under control. 

Dr. Rendtorff. Yes, sir; it has been taken care of well. There 
are seven cases of trachoma which should be operated upon. Some 
of those are comparatively new students. Two, I know personally, 
have just come in. 

The Chairman. Why don't you operate? 

Dr. Rendtorff. Oh, I am going to. I have made four tonsil 
operations here lately. 

The Chairman. What is the discipline of the school ? 

Dr. Rendtorff. Why, I have been led to think it has not been 
extra good. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. Wliat is your business, Mr. Meyer? 

Mr. Meyer. I am clerk here; generally called Mr. Friedman s clerk. 

The Chairman. Have you observed the discipline in the school 
recently ? 

Mr. Meyer. Yes; I have. 

The Chairman. Is it good or bad ? 

Mr. Meyer. I would say it was quite bad. 

The Chairman. Have you seen manifestations of disrespect on 
the part of pupils toward the superintendent ? 

Mr. Meyer. Yes, sir; I have. . 

The Chairman. You have heard them jeer him and call him 

"Jew" ? 
Mr. Meyer. I have not heard tliat. I have heard it spoken 

about; yes. i i j o 

The Chairman. Wliat demonstrations have you seen and heard < 
Mr. Meyer. There was an instance when two of our girls were sent 
away, and it was about 5 o'clock in the evening, so they could take a 
train at 5.41. They were brought to Mr. Friedman's office and l^ld 
there some little time, and taken out the east entrance to our office 
building. A number of the girls had congregated on the campus 
because work had been discontinued. Mr. Friedman went out on the 
campus and asked the girls to go back to the quarters. Tiiey refused 
to do so, and openly called good-bye to those girls, which was the 


very; thing he wanted to prevent. That was the most flagrant case 
of disobedience that I could mention. 

The Chairman. Do the students chiim they do not get enougli 
to eat ? 

Mr. Meyer. I liave lieard that comphiint; yes. 

The Chairman. Do they comphiin tliey do not get enough bread? 

Mr. Meyer. Yes; I heard that comphiint about two weeks ago. 

The Chairman. Wliat has been your experience in the service 
heretofore ? 

Mr. Meyer. I was at the Haskell Institute three and a half years, 
under Supt. Pierce. 

The Chairman. Do vou think this school is progressing satisfac- 
torO y ? 

Mr. Meyer. No: not at present. 

The Chairman. What do you think is the remedy for the troubles ? 

Mr. Meyer. I believe that we have to get a bigger man than Mr. 
Friedman is; one who can get the respect of the students and can 
get employees who are willing to do good work, so they can work 

The Chairman. Is the feeling of disrespect toward the superin- 
tendent pretty general throughout the student body ? 

^Ir. Meyer. I think so; very much. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. What is your business ? 

All'. Carns. Painter. 

The Chairman. You are employed at the Carlisle School? 

Mr. Carns. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What are your duties? 

Mr. Carns. Painter. 

The Chairman. To give instruction in painting? 

Mr. Carns. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How many pupils are detailed to vou ? 

Mr. Carns. From 20 to 30 or 35. 

The Chairman. How long should a pupil be permitted to remain 
with you to receive proper training in the trade ? 

Mr. Carns. Not less than tliree years. 

The Chairman. How long do they stay here, as a rule ? 

Mr. Carns. Two years and a half, or longer. 

The Chairman. What percentage of them? 

Mr. Carns. Oh, I could not say. I have four at the present time 
that have been with me a little over two years. 

The Chairman. The rest of them have been there a shorter time? 

Mr. Carns. Yes, sir. 

The CiLviRMAN. Very few of them are permitted to remain under 
you long enough to learn the trade? 

Mr. Carns. I do not think I ever had any over three years. 

The Chairman. They are detailed somewhere else? 

Ml-. Carns. They are taken out at times; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And detailed to some other duty? 

Mr. Carns. Yes, sir. 


The Chairman. Have you ever been able to turn out a pupil that 
has been able to do the class of work you seek to teach him to do ? 

Mr. Carns. I have; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How many? 

Mr. Carns. I do not remember. Probably I could name a dozen 
or so if I look over my list. 

The Chairman. That is a good trade, is it not ? There is quite a 
demand for skillful carriage painters ? 

Mr. Carns. Wc do not get much chance on carriage work, because 
there is a carriage maker on the ground here most of the time outside. 


The mtness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. What is your employment ? 

Mr. Lau. Carriage maker. 

The Chairman. Have you a shop here for the instruction of pupils ? 

Mr. Lau. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How many pupils are detailed for your depart- 
ment ? 

Mr. Lau. It is different; they run from 18 up to — at the present 
I have 25. 

The Chairman. How long does it take you ordinarily, or should 
it take you, to properly instruct your students in that work ? 

Mr. Lau. Not less than three years — that is, actual work. 

I'he Chairman. What is the custom here, with reference to per- 
mitting them to remain, or detailing them to other work ? 

Mr. Lau. The students are detailed t6 other work before they get 
a right start. Some few stay there until they are pretty good wagon 

The Chairman. What per cent of them stay there and learn the 
trade ? 

Mr. Lau. Not over 2 per cent. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. You have charge of the carpenter shop ? 

Mr. Herr. Yes, sir; the carpenter shop. 

The Chairman. Is the shop pretty well equipped ? 

Mr. Herr. Yes; very well equipped. 

The Chairman. Properly equipped for instruction work, is it ? 

Mr. Herr. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How many pupils are usually detailed for insttrc- 
tion in your department ? 

Mr. Herr. I could average in the winter time 40 to 41 ; sometimes 

The Chairman. Do the pupils here take to the carpenter's trade 
pretty well ? 

Mr. Herr. Oh, a certain per cent; not all. 

The Chairman. Do you know how they are chosen; how the 
superintendent or disciplinarian, or whoever it is makes the detail, 
determines what number shall come to you? 


Mr. IIerr. As far as I know, I think the boys are allowed to walk 
around and select their place. 

The Chairman. They are given some option ? 

Mr. Herr. Yes, sir; I think so. 

The Chairman, I believe I asked you how long it took to teach a 
boy to become a fairly good carpenter? 

Mr. Herr. No. They should be there from two and a half to 
three years, at any rate. 

The Chairman. Are the boys that are detailed to you permitted 
to stay there that long ? 

Mr. Herr. No, sir; may be 7 per cent, may be 6 per cent, out of 
these 40. 

The Chairman. Have you made any suggestions to the author- 
ities in the school here that that system* ought to be changed and you 
be given a chance to teach the boys so as to make them capable of 
following the trade, and thus vindicate your position as instructor? 

Mr. Herr. I have mentioned that to them frequently; yes, sir. 
We have talked that matter over, that to make practical mechanics 
of them they should be kept in the shop. 

The Chairman. How is the construction work on the new build- 
ings done, by student labor or by outside labor ? 

Mr. Herr. Some of them. 

The Chairman. What percentage of it? 

Mr. Herr. Since I am here most of it has been done by student 

The Chairman. Is it not a fact that all of the new buildings were 
constructed by outside labor? 

'Ml'. Herr. Yes, sir; all the new buildings — no, sir; there is two 
new buildings that was not. There is two buildings done here that 
was not. 

The Chairman. If you had a proper detail and were permitted to 
keep boys long enough to teach them, you ought to be able to con- 
struct such buildings almost entirely by student labor ? 

;Mi'. Herr. Certainly; we could do that during the summer season 
if the boys were left here. 

The Chairman. The boys are entitled to that instruction? 

Mr. Herr. I thmk so; yes, sir. 

Representative Stephens. You think the outing system, then, is 
the reason why none of the boys can graduate in these industrial 
pursuits ? 

Air. Herr. I think undoubtedly that is the reason. 

Representative Stephens. Many of them do not return at all, I 

The Chairman. Does the football work interfere with your work? 

Mr. Herr. Yes, it does to some extent. They are taken away 
from there, you know. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 
The Chairman. You are the blacksmith here? 
Mr. Shambaugh. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you teach blacksmi thing to the pupils ? 
Mr. Shambaugh. Yes, sir; I do the general work for the school, 
too; yes, sir. 


Tlie Chairman. How many pupils do you instruct? 

Mr. Shambaugh. Now, last month I had 26. 

The Chairman. Do they learn it pretty well ? 

:Mr. Shambaugh. Not the full blacksmi thing. I do not pretend — 
I try to make them good, efficient helpers. The last year they got a 
number of applicants for boys to go out in shops for the summer, and 
they get the real work there of a general blacksmith. 

The Chairman. What length of time does your course contemplate ? 

LIr. Shambaugh. Three years — that is, out in the shop. That is 
what I served. 

The Chairman. What do they pay you here? 

Mr. Shambaugh. S800 a year. 

The Chairman. How many boys do they detail, you say ? 

Mr. Shambaugh. I had 26 last month, I think. I think I had 13 
in the forenoon and 13 in the afternoon. This month, now, I have 
had one or two more. 

The Chairman. Are you furnished with quarters here ? 

Mr. Shambaugh. No, sir; I asked, but they refused to give me 
quarters. Wlien I came here I came under the conditions that I 
was to get my $900, the same as the other men, and they said they 
did not have quarters; and, of course, ]VIi\ Mercer left, and this man — 
I asked this man also, and he did not give me any quarters, and I 
did not get my raise either. 

The Chairman. Neither the wagon maker, the tinner, the painter, 
nor the carpenter get quarters ? 

Mr. Shambaugh. No, sir. I don't know whether the others asked. 
I know some of the rest did ask and were refused. 

The Chairman. What percentage of the boys detailed to you 
learn the trade ? 

Mr. Shambaugh. A very small percentage. 

The Chairman. Why ? 

Mr. Shambaugh. Of course, this last year or so it is not so bad, 
but heretofore they used to change the boys and take them out, 
and the boys had lost interest in the business, and only a boy that had 
aptitude would stick to it and learn the business. It is about three 
years now that they have had the outing system now, and they go 
out and earn a little money and also learn. There might be 8 or 10 
boys I could mention that are carrying on business for themselves 
and working that have made a success of it. 

The Chairman. Does the superintendent appear to be interested 
in the boys who engage in this work ? Does he come around the shop 

Mr. Shambaugh. He walks through, but he seldom stops and 
gives any encouragement. He finds fault s metimes with things 
that are absolutely unnecessary, in my estimation. 

The Chairman. He does not give you much encouragement, or 
the boys either ? 

Mr. Shambaugh. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you know that the boys complain that they 
do not get enough to eat ? 

Mr. Shambaugh. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What is their feeling generally, so far as you 
know it, toward the su})erintendent ? 


Mr. Shambaugh. The majority of them have lost respect for their 

The Chairmax. And they manifest that ? 

Mr. Shambaugh. Yes, sir. 

Representative Stephens. Are tliere any buildings on the grounds 
belonging to the school that would be available for housing you 
gentlemen ? 

^Ir. Shambaugh. I do not know. They have one right up here, 
next to the superintendent, that is empty, for friends. I don't know 
whether the friends have more money than the industrial men here 
or not. Down here is Mr. Warner, the athletic man; he has got 
one. Here is a nice place where a man has a whole house; that is, 
Mr. Stauffer. 

The Chairman. Room could be provided for both families ? 

Mr. Shambaugh. I think so. Up here is a nice house that the 
assistant superintendent used to be in. It would be a nice house 
for a man that had a family. 

Representative Stephens. Have any of you ever represented 
these facts to the authorities ? 

Mr. Shambaugh. When he put up the double cottage that the 
carpenter spoke of I asked them for quarters, and he said that he 
could not give individual quarters to the industrials at that time. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. What are your duties here, Mr. Gardner? 

Mr. Gardner. Assistant carpenter. 

The Chairman. Do you give any instruction to the pupils? 

Mr. Gardner. I do. 

The Chairman. Would it be practicable, in your judgment, for 
the carpenter and assistant carpenter with proper details of students 
to do tlie work on the buildings — the repair work and construction 
work ? 

Mr. Gardner. New buildings? I do. 

The Chairman. How is it now done, generally? 

Mr. Gardner. Here of late we have been hiring a good bit of 
outside help, and the boys are sent out on farms. That is about why 
.we do not get our buildings accomplished. 

The Chairman. Wlio constructed the old buildings here? 

Mr. Gardner. I did, sir. 

The Chairman. How was that done ? Was that done with student 
labor principally ? 

Mr. Gardner. The biggest part of it. The building you are in 
now was built ])y the boys. 

The Chairman. Who was supermtendent at that time? 

Mr. Gardner. Gen. Pratt. 

The Chairman. How is the discipline conr|)ared to what it was 
under other administrations ? 

Mr. Gardner. Well, it is not what it ought to be. 

The Chairman. What is the feeling among the pupils toward the 

3lr. Gardner, Well, I could hardly tell you that. 


The Chairman. Do you know whether they respect him or not ? 
Do you have any evidence of their f eehng toward hnn ? 

Mr. Gardner. No; nothing more than I was told. I did not see 
it, but I was in the quarters here some time ago and they hooted 
at him. 


Tlie witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. What is your occupation here? 

Mr. Lamason. Mason. 

The Chairman. Brick masoii ? 

Mr. Lamason. Brick, stone, plaster, and cement. 

The Chairman. Do you give instructions to students in this work? 

Mr. Lamason. I try to. 

The Chairman. How many are usually detailed to your depart- 
ment ? 

Mr. Lamason. Sometimes I have as high as IS or 20, and some- 
times none. 

The Chairman. How many could you properly handle ? 

Mr. Lamason. As many as they could give me. 

The Chairman. Within what limit ? 

Mr. Lamason. Well, I could handle 50, if I had the room, very 

The Chairman. Have you had an opportunity of completing the 
training of the pupils assigned in this work? Do they take them 
out from your detail, as in other cases, and send them somewhere 

Mr. Lamason. That is it. 

The Chairman. Have you ever suggested to the management here 
that that was an injustice to you and the pupils, in that it gave you 
no opportunity of showing what your abihty for this training is, nor 
what the jjupils could accomplish under it ? 

Mr. Lamason. I have had a great deal of trouble in that respect. 

The Chairman. To whom have you applied about it? 

Mr. Lamason. The quartermaster, from whom I get most of my 
orders, and also the superintendent. 

The Chairman. What information do you get from them? 

Mr. Lamason. It is not very encouraging. 

The Chairman. In your judgment, does the management of the 
school take a sincere interest in developing this work in this insti- 
tution ? 

Mr. Lamason. It is not instruction; it is a producer. Instruction . 
is a secondary matter. 

The Chairman. Instead of using it chiefly to train the boys to learn 
the trade they use it for a source of profit to the institution ? 

Mr. Lamason. Yes. 

The Chairman. Have they ever hired outside masons and plas- 
terers to do the work you and the boys could have done ? 

Mr. Lamason. Not in the last two or three years. These cottages 
was all done by outside labor, and the school building. We could 
have done it. 

The Chairman. Do you know the relationship between the super- 
intendent and the pupils generally? 



Mr. Lamason. From my general experience, it has not been very 

Tlie Chairman. Do the pupils seem to respect liim ? 
P . Mr. Lamason. Not very much. 

Representative Stephens. Do you mean to say the reason why so 
many boys are sent away from these trades to the country is because 
of the fact that they want the money for the school '. 

Mr. Lamason. No; I don't mean that. The outing system, in my 
line of business, is the finest thing they could get. I have appUca- 
tions that they have refused to have go for $3 a day. One of them 
tells me that he is getting S4 a day. 

Representative Stephens. The outing agent interferes with the 
boys ■{ 

Mr. Lamason. He does in that respect. 

The Chairman. Why did he want them to take less than they were 
offered ? Do you know X 

Mr. Lamason. Well, I can not tell jow, unless it is this: He talked 
to me afterwards. He says, "T spent $1,000 and three years in 
school, and I don't think it is right for these boys to go out and make 
more than I make." That is the answer he made to me. 



The mtness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. You are the shoemaker? 

Mr. BoLTz. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How long have vou been shoemaker at the Carlisle 
School ? 

Mr, BoLTZ. Since three years last December, about the 15th of the 

The Chairman. Do you give instruction to pupils in making shoes ? 

Mr. BoLTz. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you also do repair work for the school ? 

Mr. BoLTZ. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you make shoes? 

Mr. BoLTz. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How many pairs do you make in your shop in a 
given year ? 

Mr. BoLTZ. I think, close on to 200 pair last year. 

The Chairman. How many boys are detailed to study shoemaking ? 

Mr. BoLTZ. During last month, something like 1 1 . 

Tlie Chairman. They can not learn that business very quickly, 
can they ? How long does it take ? 

Mr. BoLTZ. Of course, they could come and get an idea in a couple 
of years, but they ought to have three years. 

The Chairman. How many have worked that long? 

Mr. BoLTz. Very few. 

The Chairman. What per cent of tliose assigned to you ? 

Mr. BoLTz. I should say, of the 18, there would not be more than 
four or five, probably. 

Tlie Chairman. Ii they gave you plenty of work and the work was 
encouraged so that the pupils took hold of it and pursued it ^\^th 
interest for the purpose of making it a trade, could you do all the 
shoe work necessary for the school ? 


Mr. BoLTZ. That is quite a hard matter for me to settle. Of 
course, if I had more experienced boys we could make more. 

The Chairman. Would it not be a good plan to try to develop the 
work so as to do tliat ? 

Mr. BoLTZ. I think it would; yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How long do they let the boys stay there? 

Mr. BoLTZ. They make very frequent changes. 

The Chairman. Do tjiey consult you ? 

Mr. BoLTZ. No; they do not. 

The Chairman. Do they come to you to find out what progress a 
boy is making before they change him? Do they sometimes take 
away your very best employees? 

Mr. BoLTz. Very often. That is where I think they make a very 
big mistake, by not consulting me before they make a change. 

The Chairman. To a man that confesses that he does not know 
anything about it, it would seem if they were trying to give instruc- 
tion they would not take anyboily out of the work that was makmg 
rapid progress and had a chance to become skillful in the trade. 

Mr. BoLTZ. A certain boy I just had last month, he takes a big 
interest in shoemaking— they took him out, and the boy promised he 
would come back next month. That is very often the case, and that 
is a drawback in the shop. 

The Chairman. You get a salary of $660 ? 

Mr. BoLTZ. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You have to pay your rent ? 

Mr. BoLTz. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you get any supplies from the farm ? 

Mr. BoLTz. No, sir. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 
The Chairman. You are the tinner here ? 

The Chairman. Have you a shop and do you give instruction to 
pupils in your work ? 

Mr. George. Yes, sir. . 

The Chairman. How many men can you instruct m that trade 
at a time? ^, . , ^ „ i . 

Mr. George. Well, I had 16 last month. This month I am 2 short. 

The Chairman. Is that the capacity of your shop to instruct ? 

Mr. George. It is according to my tools. I have not tools 
enough, in fact, for that. . . ^ , ^ 

The Chairman. How long does it take to learn the tmnmg trade ? 

Mr. George. They ought to be there three years. 

The Chairman. How long have you been there ? 

Mr. George. Three years the first of last January. 

Tlie Chairman. How many boys have you under you now that 
have been with vou continuoiislv or approximately so ? 

Mr. George. I have two boys that were with me part of last year. 
Then, of course, they went to\he outing and stayed out. 

The Chairman. So that you have not had an opportunity of com- 
pleting anyone in that course ? 

Mr. George. No, sir. 




The Chairman. Have you complained or suggested to the manage- 
ment of the school the inadvisability of this system that makes it 
impossible for you to show your efficiency as instructor? 

Mr. George. I spoke of it to the quartermaster. 

The Chairman. What does he say? 

Mr. George. Well, we don't get any satisfaction from him. He 
seems to tliink the plan is to keep them moving about. Especially 
when we have some big work in the summer time and not many boys, 
I would go to him and make a real complaint and tell him we would 
have to have more. 

The Chairman. Most of the boys you had last year you have al- 
ready said are on farms ? 

Mr. George. Yes, sir. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. Do you run the bake shop for the school? 

Mr. Renneker. Yes, sir. 

Tlie Chairman. In connection with that do you do any work in 
instructing the pupils? 

Mr. Renneker. Yes, sir. 

Tlie Chairman. Has the shop capacity enough to make enough 
bread to supply the school? 

Mr. Renneker. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How much bread do you make daily? 

Mr. Renneker. Well, it runs different. Some days I could average 
about 1,000 loaves a day, and other days about 1,500 to 1,600 a day. 
Last week I had two days that it ran 1,500 or 1,600, and the other 
days 1,000 loaves, but tliis week it ran three days 1,500. I can bake 
more. It is just as easy to bake more. 

The Chairman. Do you bake the amount you are instructed to 
bake, or do you 

Mr. Renneker. That is the thing. I generally do the best that I 
know how. I figure on so many pounds of bread, or so many loaves 
to a meal. 

The Chairman. Who determines how many loaves shall be baked 
for a meal ? 

Mr. Renneker. We run it this way. One day last week the dining- 
room matron — she will say "We had bread left over for dinner." 
The next day it may be they will be a way short . It is hard to reg- 

The Chairman. Are you not furnished a regular ration to bake 
and prepare for the tables ? 

Mr. Renneker. Well, they are telling me right along that I am 
running over on the flour. So I estimate one day what I should do. 
He says, ''You are only supposed to use 600 and some a day." Well, 
they were kicking for more bread and I was trying to get along the 
best I knew how. 

The Chairman. There was great complaint? 

Mr. Renneker. Oh, yes; there was complaint about the bread and 
yet I was still issuing more. And then when I would hand my report 
in they would say, "I don't know what we will do. Your arc going 


over your allowance." Last month it ran, I guess, 300 pounds over 
the allowance. 

The Chairman. On the one hand the pupils were complaining 
greatly that they were not getting enough bread, and on the other 
hand the quartermaster was complaining that you were consuming 
too much? I suppose it is needless to ask you if you were baking 
all the flour you were consimiing ? 

ISJj'. Renneker. Oh, yes, sir; I was cooking from 700 pounds a 
day to 1,100 pounds a day. I averaged some days 1,100 pounds. 
This week I averaged three days 700 pounds. 

The Chairman. What caused you to bake more recently? 

Mr. Renneker. The dining-room matron said Mi". Linnen said 
they were not getting enough bread and they should have more. So 
I said, ''We will give them all they can eat." I don't know what 
to do. 

Senator Lane. Haven't you got a regular ration of bread ? 

Mi\ Renneker. Just the allowance of flour. 

Senator Lane. But you knew definitely how many loaves that 
will make ? You know how many slices it will cut ? 

Mr. Renneker. A barrel of flour will average 300 loaves. This 
flour is weak — it is county flour. It does not produce the bread that 
western flour does. Western flour produces maybe 310 to 312 or 
315 loaves to a barrel. This runs sometimes not 300. 

Senator Lane. It is short in gluten? 

The Chairman. What else do you bake besides bread ? 

Mr. Renneker. Now, I bake gingerbread, corn bread, and pies. 

The Chairman. How long have you been doing that? 

Mi\ Renneker. That I have been doing all along, and rolls. I 
always baked rolls until about January. The quartermaster said to 
give them rolls, but it does not seem to make any effect on the bread. 
It seems to me to take just as much bread. They seem to carry 
them out in their pockets. So he said, "Don't make any more rolls 
until we catch up with the flour." Well, I have been catching up, 
and I have not made any yet. We made rolls on Wednesday, corn 
bread on Thursday, gingerbread on Friday, and pies on Saturday. 

The Chairman. How many pies do you make on Saturday. 

Ml*. Renneker. To-day I made 155. 

The Chairman. Is that the regular number you have been making ? 

Mr. Renneker. One hundred and fifty I was running. 

The Chairman. Wliat kind of pies were those? 

Mr. Renneker. To-day I made plum ])ie. 

The Chairman. I think I can testify that they were very good. 
Would 1 50 pies go around to the pupils and employees ? 

Mr. Renneker. Just the students. 

The Chairman. How many students are there here? 

Mr. Renneker. Now, 1 don't roaUy know; I think 816. 

The Chairman. Eight hundred and sixteen pu])ils. That would 
not make a slice around, would it? 

Mr. Renneker. They are only figuring on 509, or somethhig hke 

The Chairman. So they get i)ic once a week, ghiger bread once a 
week, corn bread once a week ? 

Mr. Renneker. And rolls; they always did until January. 

The Chairman. And the rest of the bread served is light bread? 



Mr. Renxeker. Yes, sir. 

Senator Laxe. Have you turned out any accomplished bakers, who 
have learned their trade from you ? 

Mr. Rexxeker. I tell you the boys here can not go quite far enough 
to go in a shop and run it. My boys, two of them, was here when I 
came, and they asked me to get them work, and I got both of them 
work in bake shops last summer, and the summer before, and they 
are holding their jobs. 

Representative Stephexs. Have you heard any complaints among 
the students about not having enough food to eat ? 

Mr. Rexxeker. Oh, lots of them. 

Representative Stephexs. For how many months or years ? 

Mr. Rexxeker. 1 have been here a year last May, and ever since 
I have been here 1 have heard them complain for more bread. My 
shop is not altogether sanitary for baking. 

Representative Carter. Wliat is your judgment? Do you think 
the boys were getting enough bread '( 

Mr. Rexxeker. I really don't know. The boys stick the bread 
in their })0ckets, maybe half of them, and the other half won't get the 
bread. They carry the bread out of the dining room, and there is 
where they run short of bread. The matron tells me if they would 
not carry that bread out of the dining room they probably would have 
enough to eat. 

Senator Laxe. How many students are there ? 

Mr. Rexxeker. Eating in the dining room ? Five hundred and 
sixty, they t^ll me. 

Senator Laxe. How many altogether ? 

Mr. Rexxeker. Really I couldn't say. 

The Chairmax. Eight hundred and sixteen, somebody says. 

Senator Laxe. Wliere do the rest of them eat ? 

Mr. Rexxeker. At the hospital and the teachers' quarters. 

The Chairman. Don't you bake bread for them? 

Mr. Rexxeker. No; they get flour from me. They feed the 
students at the teachers' quarters, but I issue them flour, about 100 
pounds a month. In January they got 100 pounds a month. I don't 
know how much they are allowed, but when the quartermaster tells 
me to I give it to them. 

Thereupon at 6.30 p. m. a recess was taken. 


The commission reassembled at 8.15 o'clock p. m. at the New 
Wellington Hotel, Carlisle, Pa. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 
The Chairmax. You reside in Carhsle? 
Miss Penrose. Yes. 

The Chairmax. Are you acquainted with Supt. Friedman? 
Miss Pexrose. I am. 

The Chairmax. Are 3"ou familiar with conditions existing at the 
Carlisle School ? 
Miss Pexrose. I am. 


The Chairman. Do you know the present conditions in the school 
with reference to discipline? Are you in the habit of visiting the 
school ? 

Miss Penrose. Oh, yes. I go out quite often. We have guests 
staying with us, and it is one of the things we have that we take them 
out to see. I was out there only last fall. I went through the 
kitchens. My guests and I went out there, and we went through 
the kitchens just before they served dinner, and my aunt made the 
remark how fortunate those men were to have such good food. 

The Chairman. Were you in the dining room at the time the meals 
were being served ? 

Miss Penrose. We went through the kitchen before, and then 
when the meal was being served we were in the dining room, and my 
aunt made the remark how fortunate those men were. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether or not the complaint is 
made that the food is insufficient m quantity ? 

Miss Penrose. I have not heard it. I have only heard it from the 
"fanatics" I call them. 

Senator Lane. How long since ? 

Miss Penrose. Only recently; only since this last trouble. 

Senator Lane. Do you eat oatmeal gruel for breakfast? 

Miss Penrose. Every morning. 

Senator Lane. Tiien let me ask you something. Tiie oatmeal 
ration there is 5 pounds of oatmeal for 100 people. 

Miss Penrose. Is it gruel? 

Senator Lane. No; it is put with enough water to make a porridge 
for 100 people. Would strike you really, as a housekeeper, as 
being enougli? 

Miss Penrose. Well, I hardly know. I think if they made it 
very soft, I think it would be. 

Senator Lane. You think that would be enough? 

Miss Penrose. Of course, I only supply for a few people — just two 
or three. 

Senator Lane. Now, then, a half pound of 20-cent tea —you don't 
buy that kind, do you ? 

Miss Penrose. We buy 50-cent tea. 

Senator Lane. 20-cent tea. Oolong, black, for 100 people 

Miss Penrose. Well, I don't know. I have an aunt who is very 
rich, in Philadelphia, and she buj'^s what they call "charity" tea 
from Christison in New Yorlc for 2-5 cents a pound. She uses that. 

Senator Lane. Would that ^3tI•ike you as being good rich tea? 

Miss Penrose. I should not think it would be; no. Of course 
I could not tell, because I do not drink any tea. I could tell you 
more about coffee, perhaps. 

Senator Lane. That attracted my attention; and when you spoke 
about the meal being well pre])ared 

Miss Penrose. I saw what they had for dinner that day. They 
had very good meat, and potatoes 

The Chairman. Do you know how often they have potatoes? 

Miss Penrose. No. 

The Chairman. Do you know how often they have meat? 

Miss Penrose. I thought they had meat every day. 

Senator Lane. They cooked up to-day 415 pounds of meat for 
615 peo])lo. Now, I used to be superintendent of a hospital. I 


cooked for 600 ])eoplc — just tlio same niinilx'r. I cooked 600 pounds, 
and they used meat for two meals. 

IVIiss Penrose. Are not things a good deal more expensive I 

Senator Lane. Yes, tliey are: hut that does not satisfy your 

The Chairman. You were stating a while ago, before the com- 
mission met, that you would give something about the circumstances 
that led up to the disturbances. If you know what they are, I 
would be glad to have you state. 

Miss Penrose. The statement was what 1 had gathered of these 
women that I think are fanatics, and they started up because they 
are against the Roman Catholics. 

The Chair>[AN. You think all the trouble in the school is due to 
religious dispute i 

Miss Penrose. 1 think it is. 1 wish to say another thing. When 
they found Mr. Friedman went to the Episcopal Church last year, 
I think it made it more so. 

The Chairman. Do you know how many of the children arc 
Catholics i As a matter of fact, the number of Catholic pupils in 
the school appears to be only about one-fourth of the pupils. 

Miss Penrose. I feel myself that it would be a great deal better 
for them to go to the Catholic Church — the Indians. That is what 
I told Miss Richards when she asked me last year. She said, "Do 
you go out to the Indian school and take any interest in the boys and 
get them to go to your church?" I said, "No." I said, "What 
are you doing with them at your house ?" "What right have you ?" 
She said, "Well, I am going to keep him from going to the Catholic 
Church." I said, "Well, if he wants to go to the Catholic Church, 
let him go there." 

The Chairman. You think it would l)e well for him to go to church 
somewiiere ? 

Miss Penrose. They would do anything against the Catholic 

The Chairman. Who is that ? 

Miss Penrose. Miss Jean Richards. 

The Chairman. Who is she? 

Miss Penrose. She lives here in town. She lives on West Poniford 
Street. I used to see quite a little of them; I used to go down there; 
and the older sister, Miss Ann Richards, I was very fond of; but 
I got into such a violent discussion I made up my mind I would 
never go into the house again, if I could help it. 

The Chairman. Are you ])ersoiially familiar with conditions at 
the school? What ojiportunity have you had of knomng? 

Miss Penrose. Well, I have been out there. I have been a visitor. 

The Chairman. How long ago was the last time? 

Miss Penrose. To go through the school ? 

The Chairman. Yes; to make observations? 

Miss Penrose. I was out there last October. I went through the 
school, as I said, taking my friends out there. 

The Chairman. Have you ever examined the beds? 

Miss Penrose. No; because I never went into those quarters, 
except just simply to pass through different departments. 

35601— PT 11—14 17 


The Chairman. Do you know what the stat:' of feeling is between 
the pupils generally and the superintendent ? 

Miss Penrose. No; I do not. I have only heard recently of this 
feeling, since the Indians have been persuaded by certain parties in 
town to sign a petition against Mr. Friedman. 

The Chairman. Wliat people are 3^011 speaking of? 

Miss Penrose. These fanatics, the Richards and all those fanatics. 

The Chairman. I can not be expected to know all the fanatics, 
you know. 

Senatoi Lane. And you think they interfere? 

Miss Penrose. I think they have interfered decidedly. 

Senator Lane. And they are not Catholics ? 

Miss Penrose. No; they are Presbyterians, the bluest kind. 

Senator Lane. We had not heard of this. 

Miss Penrose. Dr. Walker went down to this auxiliary last winter 
that I went to in Mcchanicsburg. He said he felt really that the 
superintendent favored the Catholic churches. 

Senator Lane. The Catholic children out there complain that they 
are not getting the privileges of their church. 

Miss Penrose. This is what Dr. Walker said. He said he thought 
they entirely sympathized with the Catholics, and allowed the 
Catholics — • — - 

The Chairman. They complain the other way. 

Miss Penrose. He states the girls feel as though they are cut out. 
The girls are not allowed to go to the early morning mass, because 
they are not allowed to have a chaperone, and they could not get a 
volunteer to take the girls in to church in the early morning. 

Senator Lane. Something of that sort. Now, there is out there, 
I will say to you, a great deal of dissatisfaction among the students 
against the management of the institution. How it arose we do 
not know. 

Miss Penrose. I think it is incited by these people in town. 

Representative Stephens. Have you seen any drunkenness 
among the pupils? 

Miss Penrose. I have never seen one. 

Senator Lane. Now, last night there were seven boys in the guard- 
house locked up for drunkenness. 

Miss Penrose. It is probabh^ very hard to control. 

Representative Stephens, You do not know anything about the 
moral conditions? 

Miss Penrose. No, I do not. 

The Chairman. Do you know anything about the academic or 
vocational wq^k that is done ? 

Miss Penrose. I have been through the school just to see the 
school. I have only been through the school to see the children 
doing their work, like dressmaking, an.d tilings like tlint. They seem 
to be doing well. That is all I c;^]i tell you. 

The Chairman. Are the people in the town nttju'hed to the Car- 
lisle school generally ? 

Miss Penrose. Yes, I think they are attached to it. Tiicy are 
rather proud of it; they take their friends out to see it. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much. We are very glad to 
have had vour statement. 




The witness was duly swcu'ii Ijy (he chairman. 

The Chairman. You are one of the teachers at the Carlisle Insti- 

Mrs. Foster. I am. 

The Chairman. How loiii; liave you l)een em'|>loyed there? 

Mrs. Foster. El(>ven years n(>xt September. 

The Chairman. Are you familiar with conditions at the school, 
and with the progress that is heing made in the work generally? 

Mrs. Foster. Why, I think so. 

The Chairman. Wliat is your assignment ( 

Mrs. Foster. I have the senior chiss. 

The Chairman. You are teaclier of the seni(n' class? 

Mrs. Foster. Yes. 

The Chairman. What salarv do you get? 

Mrs. Foster. I get S810. I get $810 for teaching in the academic 
department, and since last September I have had charge of the 
Y. W. C. A. work, and I am paid SI 5 a month for that. 

The Chairman. That is out of the athletic fund? 

Mrs. Foster. I do not know. 

The Chairman. I would be very glad to have you go ahead and 
make a statement as to wdiat vou know concerning conditions out 
there ? 

Mrs. Foster. In my own w-ay? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mrs. Foster. In vvhat respect? 

The Chairman. You prefer to bo (questioned? 

Mrs. Foster. Yes; I want to do the right tiling, and I wish you 
woidd ask me questions. 

The Chairman. What is the condition of the discipline in the 
school ? 

Mrs. Foster. Why, I have been there eleven years luider the 
three su])erintendents, and always during that time without castr- 
ing any reflections on the superintendents at aU-\ve have had more 
or less immorality, we have had runawiiys, drunkenness, and all 
those more or less. 

The Chairman. Wluit is the condition in the school now^ com- 
pared with other administrations with reference to discipline? 

Mrs. Foster. I was under Gen. Pratt two years, and Gen. Pratt 
was fortunate in having a splendid disci]dinari-iu v-^ho was intensely 
loyal to him Mr. Thompson. H(! had a personality that made the 
children fe ir him ? 

The Chairman. Did they respect him? 

Mrs. Foster. I think they did. 

The Chairman, l^o the pupils in the school generally res])ect the 
})resent superintendent ? 

Mrs. Foster. Yes, they do — well, let me go back. Up to De- 
cember sometime the school was harmonious, and we were all happy; 
and we were congratulating ourselves on the way things w^ere going. 
^Suddenly there were rumors that the children were getting up peti- 
tions, and they were unhappy and doing all sorts of things. 1 know 
Indian children. If I talk too long I don't know whether I will say too 
many things — but I will go on in my own way. 


You knf)\v, we have had the measles. The chihh-eji were quaran- 
tined, and they became restless. They natural!}" crave excitement — 
they have had a great deal of it — and it seems to me it was more for 
excitement than anything else. When Mr. Friedman came there 
the children seemed to like him, and of course there were murmurs 
every once in a while. There were under the three superintendents 
for that matter, if anyone listened to them. And they were growing 
in respect for him until just before the holidays. What brought 
about that change I do not know; I could Jiot swear to that. I sur- 
mise, but I could not sw^ear to that. I do know that I have heard 
employees speak disrespectfully of him. I have heard people call liim 
"Moses" before the children. 

The Chairman. You mean employees there at the school? 

Mrs. FosTEE. Yes; I have heard Miss Canfield speak of him as 
"Moses." I have heard Mr. Whitwell find fault with liim and thi'ow^ 
all the responsibility on liim and speak as though he were hampered 
and could not have his own way about anything at all, right before 
the children, ajid of course the children are very susceptible to those 
influences. So of course the discontent has grown. 

The Chairman. There is now a feeling of hostility between the 
superintendent and the pupils quite generall}'? 

Mrs. Foster. Quite generally, but if they feel the^^ are not listened 
to — I speak from hnig years of experience 

The Chairman. I do not care to argue it; I am simply asking about 
the facts. 

Mrs. Foster. Yes; that is recejit. 

The Chairman. You think it is due to efforts on the part of em- 
ployees of the school to arouse them in insurrection ? 

Mrs. Foster. I think it has a great deal to do with it; and I think 
that that atmosphere of opposition, that they can feel at once, has 
influenced them. 

The Chairman. How do the girls get along with the matron ? 

Mrs. Foster. They find a great deal of thought because she wants 
to do right by them. 

The Chairman. You think she is right and they are wrong. 

Mrs. Foster. I do; I do. She may be a httle hasty sometimes, 
but she has their interest at heart, and she is trying to bring order 
out of chaos. There is no doubt about that. 

The Chairman. Has she succeeded, in. your judgment? 

Mrs. Foster. She has, up to Christmas time wheji this discontent 

The Chairman. When did this trouble begin ? 

Mrs. Foster. Just about the holidaj^s. 

The Chairman. Up until the holidays conditions were fairly satis- 
factory ? 

Mrs. Foster. I say, we were congratulating ourselves upon peace- 
ful conditions. The school had started right, and we were generally 
quite happy. 

The Chairman. What is the general character of the student body 
there \nth reference to being orderly or disorderly ? 

Mrs. Foster. Why, they are orderly. 

The Chairman. Are Indian pu})ils easily controlled or difficult to 


Mrs. Foster. Oh, easil}' controlled. Tliey have the greatest sense 
of justice. I have never sent a ])upil to the prmcipal myself. Never 
until the last few clays have I felt any op]M)sition in my schoolroom. 
Now. Rose Lyons and some of the oirls have heeji sent for to come 
down to the office. 1 do not know what it is, but certainly they have 
changed. It is the first time in 22 years that I liave cvei- had such an 
experience as that. 

The Chairman. AVlien was tlie lirst time you l)egan to (hscover 
opposition ? 

Mrs. Foster. Not strong opposition; it was just the girls. Thi-ee 
or four of them — Marguerite Chilson, Rose Lyons, and one or two 
others- showed a difference in tlieir manner, and yet at the same time 
they acted a little ashamed of it. 

The Chairman. Do you have any trouble controlling your pupils? 

Mrs. Foster. I never have liad. I think they are the easiest chil- 
dren to control. I think disci])line is whatever the liead of the depart- 
ment — the attitude of the head of the department toward the children. 
It takes patience and considerable vigilance. 

The Chairman. Do 3-ou think Mr. Friedman is affectionate toward 
the pupils ? 

^L's. Foster. I am i)ositive he has their interest at heart. 

The CnAiRiCAN. I asked you if he w\'is affectionate toward the 

Mrs. F0.STER. Yes: I think lie has an affection for the ]nipils. He 
is not a demonstrative man. 

Representative Carter. You sa}' you think the pupils are whoUy 
to blame in their trouble ^^-ith Miss Ridenour ? 

Mrs. Foster. "NATiolh- to blame? 

Representative Carter. Yes. 

Mrs. Foster. I tell j^ou, I think like this, if I may go back. The 
change from Miss Gaither to Miss Ridenour was very great. They are 
entirely different personalities. Miss Gaither is fond of a joke. In 
the first place, I want you to understand that I am very fond of ^liss 
Gaither. but she is not the disciplinarian that Miss Ridenour is. 
When Miss Ridenour first came the}' naturally resented the manner 
she took with them, because she would be obeyed. I do not hear 
them myself, but I know .she has had trouble with them and they 
were disrespectful. 

Repiesentative Carter. She has had to inflict cor])oral ]iunish- 
ment upon quite a good many of them, has she not ( 

Mrs. Foster. I never knew it. 

Representative Carter. We got that from her herself. 

Mrs. Foster. It has not come to me. I think that is Rose Whip- 
per. She is a full-blooded Sioux girl. 

Representative Carter. Do 3'ou know anything about the trouble 
she had \\\X\\ Juha Hardin ? 

Mrs. Fo.sTER. Only from hearsay. She did not come to me, but 
Rose did. Rose came to me and wept bitterty. I said, "Rose, were 
3'ou not in the MT(tng too V And she saw it as I did. 

Representative Carter. Without criticizing either si(k\ what do 
you think ab;)nt (•or[)oral punishment for grown girls? 

Mrs. Foster. I have a daughter of my own, and I have never 
touched her, nor would 1 pei'iiiit anyone else to do so; but T have never 
been tried that wav. 1 do not know— of course, 1 think it is an 


indignity, but wlien a girl herself owns up she needed it it seems to me 
it is the right thing. 

Representative Carter. How do 3"ou feel towar(i a person who 
does milict corporal punishment? 

Mrs. Foster. I would not have it with my own daughter, but my 
daughter was brought up differently. 1 have heard these children 
say, ''1 like people that are strict." Indians very often say that. 
They like people that are strict, if that strictness is tempered with 

But when Miss Ridenour came, to go back to that, most of the girls 
were fond of Miss Gaither, and they resented the change; but T»kliss 
Ridenour is a woman who is trying to do right. T do not see how 
anyone can look at her and doubt that. She has an affection for the 
girls. She has made a wonderful change in those quartere. Oh, I 
certainly feel this. I don't know what the outcome is going to be 
at all, but I certainly feel this strongly, that it would be a dreadful 
thing to take away Miss Ridenour or Mr. Friedman now. The child- 
ren would have a cinch on tbe situation. They are sensing that now, 
saying "See what we can do." Mr. P'riedman is a clean man, and 
he has improved perfectly wonderfully since he came. He would be 
a hard man to succeed. 

Representative Stephens. Is there any complaint about their not 
getting enough to eat ? 

Mrs. Foster. Oh, they do that at every school. Under Mr. Pierce 
there were tlie bitterest complaints. That is the general complaint 
at every Indian school. 

Representative wStepiien.s. They always have good bread over here, 
and they have plenty of it ? 

Mrs. Foster. 1 have never heartl th.em say that they did. not have 
enough bread: 1 never have. Tliey often make fun of the gravy. 

Representative Stephens. Do you know how often they get butter ? 

Mrs. Foster. 1 think only twice a week. 

Representative Stephens. Potatoes? 

Mrs. Foster. No; I don't laiow. They have had more vegetables 
under tnis athninistration than ever before. 

Representative Stephens. They get meat, and bread, and brotli, 
as a rule ? 

Mrs. Foster. xVnd gravy, alway.s gravy; and pie certain days. 

Tlie Chairman. Thank you, Mrs. Foster. We arc glad to have had 
your testimony. 


Tile witness was duly sworn b>" the chairman. 

The Chairman. You are wliat is called the "coach " ? 

Mr. Warner. 1 am athletic director of the Carlisle Indian School. 

Tlie Chairman. How long have you filled that position? 

Mr. Warner. I cajue to the school in 1899, when Gen. Pratt was 
there, and staved tiu>re until he left in the sja-jng of 1904. Then F 
went to Cornell in the same ca})acity, and came back to Carlisle in 
January,] 907, and was there one year under Maj. Mercer. Then 
Mr. Friedman cajue there, and 1 have been there ever since. 

The Chairman. The atidetic work at the college is k('i)t, in large 
degree, separate from the institute ])roj)er, b; it not t 

Carlisle i^-dia^' schoul. 1223 

Mr. Warxer. Well, the athletics are managed h\ the athletic 
association under the su])ervLsion of a sujierintendent. 

The Chairman. What is the athletic association ? 

Mr. Warner. It is composed of the boys who have won their 
school letter — the ' 'C" we call it. 

The Chairman. What does that n'.ean ( 

Mr. Warner. Tliat means tliat they have represented the school 
in an intercollegiate com])etition; that is, they nave been on one of 
the teams. It is com})osed of those boAs, together with the super- 
intendent, the athletic director, and the s(*cretarv and treasurer. 

The Chairman. It is a corporation, is it not? 

Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. Wlien I iirst came there there was no 
association; it was calleil the athletic association, Imt Gen. Pratt 
was th(> association. Then when Maj. Mercer came there it was 
formally organized and adopted a constitution and bylaws, etc., 
and since Mr. Friedman has beeii there it has been incorporated. 

The Chairman. Did you ])rom])t or hisjnre the incorporation? 

Mr. Warner. Why, we talked it over 

The Chairman. 1 mean, did um suggest it!' 

Mr. Warner. Xo, sir. 

The Chairman. How did uni come tu uicor]>orate ? What was 
the idea ? 

Mr. Warner. Why, most of the associations we have relations 
with at colleges ami universities are incorporated athletic associa- 
tions, and it gives them a little more standmg and enables them to 
transact theu' business in a little .uore businesslike manner. 

The Chairman, "^'ou are eiujloyed, I i ssume, by the athletic 
association ? 

Mr. Warner. Yes, su*. 

Tlie Chairman. ^ on have no direct comiection with the Govern- 
ment whatever ? 

Mr. Warner. Xo more than I have to conduct the athletics 
there under the supervision of the supermtendeiit. 

The Chairman, ^^^^at are the sources of income of the association ? 

Mr. Warner. Why, tli(\v are practically — well, all the sources, I 
would say, are from the recei])ts of games which we play out of 

The Chairman. 1 wisli \ou wouhi explain to us how those games 
are handled and how the fund is accounted for. 

Mr. Warner. Why, I arrange the games witli the athletic directors 
or managers of the various college teams, and agreements are made 
as to how the receipts shall be divided. Sometimes we })lay for a 
guaranty for a certaui ajuoimt and sometimes with a guaranty 
and an option of a jjcrcentage of the gate receipts. Sometunes we 
have just a j)ercentage of the gate receipts and no option. 

The Chairman. You have been in charge of that work how long? 

Mr. Warner. I have been in charge of it since 1899, with excep- 
tion of 1904, 1905, 1906. 

The Chairman. Have you played many games that you did not 
come out on ? That you lost money on ? 

Mr. Warner. The only games that we lose on are the home games. 
We do not charge our students or employees any admission, and of 
late years we have ^ad : U our home competitions free to the general 
public out there. 


The Chairman. And always when you go away from home you 
make something? 

Mr. Warner. I would not say always. The football team does, 
but the other teams — football is the money-making game and it 
finances our whole athletics. Of course, lacrosse and track athletics 
are losing sports. It is all outgo. Quite often we make trips at a 
little loss- 

Senator Lane. How many football games do you play in a season, 
on an average? 

Mr, Warner. About 11 or 12. 

The Chairman. You go pretty well all over the country? 

Mr. Warner. Of late years we have had no western trips. While 
we play quite a number of games away from home, they are with few 
exceptions, games where we either leave tlie morning of the game 
and get home the same niglit, or we leave in the afternoon of Friday 
and always get back either Saturday night or Sunday. So, with 
the exception of one or two trips on tlie schedule, the boys lose very 
little time on that account. 

Senator Lane. I want to ask 3-0)1 there, do you make a search 
through the Indian reservations and comb tlie Indians over for good 
material ? 

Mr. Warner. No, sir; that iias been cJiarged against us. 

Senator Lane. You never heard of it? 

Mr. Warner. Newspaper reporters follow us who are interested 
in other colleges, and the}^ insinuate that we try to induce fellows to 
come here. As a inatter of fact, I have never made a trip m the 
West to look for athletic material, and t]iere lias been nothing of that 
kind done. 

The Chairman. How is your material chosen? 

;Mr. Warner. We take the boj^s that come here and try them out. 
Every boy is entitled to come out and try and see what he can do. 
Our boys have liad practically no experience in lacrosse — our sports 
are now lacrosse, track athletics, and football: they are all practically 
developed right there. 

The Chairman. I suppose when you get a good man you hold him 
as long as you can on the team ? 

Mr. Warner. I think the records will show that the average 
length of service for the last five years would be less than two years. 

TJie Chairman. I am not talking about tlie average; I am talking 
about the exceptional cases. 

Mr. Warner. There were exceptional cases in years gone by, 
before we adopted eligibility rules, where boys played (m the team 
five or six years, but they were not lield there for that purpose. 
Boys used to stay at the scliool longer tlian they do now. Tliey came 
there, and were induced to stay there until they graduated. Since 
1907 we have had no boj^ on the team over four years. 

The Chairman. Do you personally seh^ct th(^ players, oi- how are 
they selected ? 
. Mr. Warner. Yes; I have the final saj' as to who shall play. 

The Chairman. How many boys during the last year were in the 
various football squads, for instance, and trying to get on the team? 

Mr. Warner. I think there were about 60 tliis last year. 

The Chairman. Coming ])ack to the cpiestion of the finances of the 
association, how do you settle witli the rej)i'esentatives of the other 


teams when a game is played? What is tlie process? Do they pay 
you by check ? 

Mr. Warner. As a rule, they ck). As a rule, in those collecre games, 
of course, you rely — that is, they are college players and college men 
you are dealing with. You rely upon their honesty and squareness, 
and we never have a man on the gate. Sometimes they settle right 
after the game if they have the receipts figured out and all that, but 
as a rule they send a statement of the number of seats sold, at what 
price, and total receipts, and our share, and send us a check. 

The Chairman. Payable to whom ? 

Mr. Warner. To the athletic association; sometimes payable to 
me as athletic director. 

The Chairman. What do you do with it '. 

Mr. Warner. If it is payable to me I indoise it over to the treasurei^ 
of the athletic association. 

The Chairman. And it is deposited with him '. 

Mr. Warner. He deposits it. 

The Chairman. Do you know how much you took in last j^ear? 

Mr. Warner. Well, just an estimate. 1 have not figured it up, 
but I would say our total receipts were around $25,000. 

The CiiAiRNMAN. Did you have a good season, a successful season. 

]\Ii-. Warner. AVe had a good season as far as the record of the 
team was concerned, but I think the receipts were a little smaller than 
the year before. We had bad weather some of the days. 

The Chairman. AMio controls the disbursement of that fund, ]\[r. 

Mr. Warner. Why, the executive committee of the athletic 

The Chairman. Who are the}^? 

Mr. Warner. The superintendent, and Mr. Miller, and mj^seK — the 
officers of the association. Mr. Friedman is not an officer, but he is 
an honorary member of the association. 

The Chairman. Do you three determine what accoonts should bo 
paid, what bills should be paid ? 

^Ir. Warner. Yes. 

The ChairjMan. Do you have meetings to do that or is it purely 

Mr. Warner. "Well, we are all right there in the office, and if there 
is anything special comes up — of course, there are little bills — we 
all know they have to be paid. 

The Chairman. Of course, your salai'v comes out t)f that fund, I 
take it ? 

Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Are there any other employees i)aid out of that 

Mr. Warner. The treasurer of the association — part of his salary 
comes out of that, I think. He gets a very small salary. 

The Chairman. He gets $.3,") a month '^ 

Mr. Warner. Yes. 

Senator Lane. Practically, you are the executiA-e ? They depend 
upon you, don't they? 

Mr. Warner. No; of c(mrse, we consult together. If there are 
things of the ordinary routine, of course, there is no discussicni ; but 
any important matter, why, we discuss it. Now, as an instance of 


ihat, wc had just a short while ago a letter from a former player of 
the team who was in very hard luck and lost all his money and had 
a bad leg and he wanted to go to the hospital, and he thought that 
the athletic association might help him out. Well, we discussed that 
as to whether an act of charity it would be wise to do that. Theje are 
things like that that come up. 

The Chairman. There is paid to Mrs. Foster, a teacher, out of the 
athletic fund, $15 a month, and to Mr. R.L.Mann, another teacher, 
$15 a month for Y. M. C. A. work. 

Mr. Warxer. We pay Mrs. Foster. Mr. Mann did have charge of 
that work until he was relieved from it on account of Ms evil influence 
with the boys. 

The Chairman. What do you mean by that, ''his evil influence" ? 

Mr. Warner. Mr. Friedman found that he was a bad influence 
with the boys, coming in late at nights and talking about the girls 
he had been out with, and giving the boys cigarettes, and things 
Mke that. 

The Chairman. Did he drink witli them? 

Mr. Warner. I do not know that he did. 

The Chairman. How did he ever come to be chosen for that kind 
of work ? Who chose him ? 

Mr. Warner. I do not know who chose him, but he was rather a 
new man there and was not very well known, and he was given that 

Senator Lane. Did he have a bad influence in the way you speak of ? 

Mr. Warner. Oh, yes. 

Senator Lane. You know that he did i 

Mr. Warner. Yes; Mr. Friedman wrote him a letter and called his 
attention to all these things, and moved him out of the athletic 
quarters, where he had been staying, where he had been with the boys, 
and he never answered the letter and practically admitted by not 
replying that it was all so. Some of the boys told Mr. Friedman 
abt)ut it. 

The Chairman. What is the object of paying nominal salaries to all 
the ministers in the town for services there ? 

Mr. Warner. Well, I do not know that I could — they have serv- 
ices in town, you see, and the boys and girls that belong in their 
churches, they could go in to t(.)wn to their churches ; they could go in 
to Sunday school, but it has always been a custom, even in Gen. 
Pratt's time and Maj. Mercer's time. It lias always been the custom 
to have afternoon services at the school, and the preachers have 
always been paid. When Gen. Pratt was here I think they were 
paid out of a charity fund which he had. 

The Chairman. He had a man he called "chaplain," didn't he? 

Mr. Warner. He liad one man part of the time, and others at 
other times. Mr. Diffendeifer was — he had him here ([uite a while. 
He was here under Air. Friedman. 

The Chairman. What I mean is, he did not have all of them at 
once. What I am trying to find out is. What is vour idea of havini; 
them all? 

Mr. Warner. Oh, instead of ha\iug one denomination 1 thiidv it 
Was thought tliat if you would have the preachers from tlie difl'ercuit 
denominations alteriiute it would be a variation in the service to the 
students, and give all the denominations the same recognition. 




Tho Chairman. 1 find in looking over that account a good many 
items for funds paid to Mr. Hugh Miller and Mr. J. L. Martin for serv- 
ices as correspondents. 

Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How is that handhul, and what services do tliey 
perform ? 

Mr. Warner. They do a lot of extra work in seu(hno out photo- 
graphs and stories about the football teams duriiig the football season. 
As most of our games are played on the percentage basis, of course, 
all the publicity we can get in the newspapei-s, especially in the cities 
where we are going to play, swells the receii)ts; and for the extra 
work that they do along that line, and for photographs and extra 
work, they have been allowed — that was allowed by ^Ir. Mercer be- 
fore Mr. Friedman came here — I think they wei-e j)aid more at tluit 
time than they have been in late years. 

The Chairman. I also find a number of items showiiig payments 
of various amounts to cli])ping bureaus. Wlnit is the idea about 
that ? 

Mr. Warner. Why, it is customary witli all teams of importance 
to have clij)pings. For instance, during the football season I have a 
certain bureau send me all the clippings pertaining to the Carlisle 
Indian School football team, and it gives me an idea what is being 
said, and if anything is being said that is detrinn^utal and untrue, it 
gives me a chance to deny it. xVnd it gives me a chance to learn 
what other teams an^ doing in preparing for our ganu\s. Those clip- 
pings are always turned over to the boys for them to read. 

The Chairman. I see that an attorney, Mr. John M. Ray, receives 
about $100 per annum for auditing the books of the athletic asso- 
ciation. What service does he perform? 

Mr. Warner. Well, we thought that to assure ourselves that the 
athletic books were kept in a businesslike and straightforward 
manner, it would be well to have an outside man of good standing in 
the community, recognized as an honest man, etc., to audit tliose 
accounts and see that they were all right. 

The Chairman. Do you know what lie does when lu' audits the 
accounts — what he actually does i Do you know how he does his 
work ? 

Mr. Warner. He checks up, just the same as Mr. Linnen did 
when he went over the accounts. 

Senator Lane. Does he give you a re))ort i 

Mr. Warner. He just signs — at the end of each month he savs, 
''Audited by John M'. Ray.'' 

The Chairman. He does not uiidertake to go behind the recei})ts 
in the ofhce then; to ascertain whether or not tlie amoiuit reported 
in the books there is the amount actually ])aid by anotlier association 
to your association ? 

Mr. Warner. Well, of course, a statement conu's in l)y the official 
in charge of the other team, and he lias that. He scuds tlial with 
tht; checks. 

The Chairman. I sec also an item for J. W. Wetze!, who is another 
attorney, and Wetzel & Hanibleton. for $50 and Si 00. What 
service^ do they ])erform ? 

Mr. Warner. Now, as to that, 1 do not exactly remember, but I 
think there was a case — some girl got into trouble: something in 




connection with that; sonic legal services that they did, I think 
Well, I think Mr. Friedman had them look over mv contract. 

The Chairman. You do not know what it was for definitel}' ? 

Mr. Warner. Xo; I could not explain that. 

The Chairman. What salaries are paid the members of the team '? 
Any ? 

Mr. Warner. Xo, sir. 

The Chairman. Wiult do they receive that other pujnls do not get ? 

Mr. Warner. Well, at the close of the season the boys are given a 
$25 suit of clothes and a $25 overcoat; that is, the first team. And 
the first team also get a souvenir of some kind. 

Senator Lane. Is that charged in? 

Mr. Warner. It is on the books: yes, su\ That custom was 
introduced by Gen. Pi-att when I first went there, and it was reestab- 
lished nn({er Mr. Friedman. 

Tlie Chairman. That is in a(hlition to theu" regular athletic cloth- 
ing, which, of course, you Ijuy anti pay for? 

Mr. Warner. Yes. 

Tlie Chairman. Now, you pay the transportation of the football 
team and the necessary attendants when they go out to play games 
out of the athletic funds, oi course ? 

Mr. Warner. Yes, su'. 

The Chairman. 1 see a good many items of expenses for the super- 
intendent in various places, v.'hich I assume were — many of tliem, at 
least — while lie was attending the games. 

Mr. Warner. Some of them were, I should think; yes, su'. 

The Chairman. How were those audited ? By whom ? 

Mr. Warner. How were they audited? 

The Chairman. Yes: how do you know the amounts are correct? 

Mr. Warner. He ])uts in a statement of what the expenses con- 
sisted of. 

The Chairman. He does not iile an itemized statement? 

Mr. Warner. AVell, I think they are pretty well itemized. I know 
they are much more so than his jiredecessors. 

"I'lie Chairman. Who would know whether the}' were itemized 
or not ? 

]\[r. Warner. You can tell by lookmg 

The Chairiman. The man tliat keej)S the accounts says they are ^ 
not itemized. Who approves them ? ? 

Mr. Warner. Well, 1 sign the checks for it. ^<. 

TJie CiiAimfAN. Now, I find a number of items there for transpor- 
tation books furnished to ]\[r. Friechnan at the expense of the atliletic 
association. How does the nthl(>tic association come to be furnishing ^ 
those inileage bo(d<:s ? "" 

My. Warner. Some of thcjii are for those trips. 

The Chairman. He is supposed to use those only in the trips in 
the interest of athletics ? 

Mr. Warner. I think he uses them for other purposes — students 
being sent away when they have no money, or something of that 

The Chairman. Has your attention evei' been called to tlie fact 
that on a number of occasions when he used those books, paid for 
by the athletic association, tliat he also charged in liis account ren- 


dered to the Government, as superintendent of the selioi)!, the same 
items ? 

Mr. Warner. No; I never Jieard of that. 

Senator Lane. Before you leave that, the athletic association pays 
his traveling expenses hy issuing him thes(> mileage books, and they 
are not to be used for any other purpose except in the interest of the 
Athletic association, are they? Legitimately, I mean? You inti- 
mated he used them for other purposes. 

Mr. Warner. Only occasionally, for a charity case, or something 
like that. I know he has used athletic association mileage to bring 
a- party of Indians from Washington to commencement, and things 
like that that would not be legitimate Government expense, but he 
would do it from the athletic association funds. 

Senator Lane. Has he been authorized to do that bv the asso- 
ciation ? 

Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you know the amount of money tliat is spent 
annually for liis expenses and tlie expenses of himself and friends and 
family out of the athletic funds? 

Mr. Warner. No; I never figured it up. I think it is very small; 
very small, compared to what his predecessors used to use. 

The Chairman. Have you exammed tlie books to see whether that 
is true? 

Mr. Warner. Oh, yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How does it compare with the amounts his prede- 
cessors used ? 

Ml-. Warner. It is much less. I could not quote the figures, you 
know. Mr. Friedman, I think, has used the funds of the association 
for liimself very little. I think occasionally he has taken his wife 
on trips. 

Senator Lane. Out of this fund ? 

Mr. Warner. With tlie athletic association; yes. 

Senator Lane. Did the others do it to a still greater extent ? 

Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. Then, it is customary ? 

Mr. Warner. It has been; yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. How do you account for that method of usine- the 
funds? ^ 

Mr. Warner. I suppose they justified it on the ground that they 
thought it was perfectly right for the superintendent occasionally to 
accompany the team away to play a game. 

Senator Lane. And pay his family's expenses because somebody 
else did it to a greater extent ? 

Mr. Warner. How they figured it, I do not know. 

Senator Lane. But I understood you to be accounting for it that 
Way here. I understood you to say he had done that less often than 
his predecessors. 

Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. Were they in the habit of using association funds 
for private use ? 

Mr. Warner. They have been, on occasions like that; yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. According to that, then, this fund is a land of fund 
at large that may be used for any pi]r])ose. 

The Chairman. Wlio do you think that fund reallv belongs to? 


Mr. Warner. It belongs to the athletic association, 

llie Chair]max. Yes, to the athletic association. Whom do you 
mean by that? 

Mr. Warner. I mean the boys who compose the team 

The Chairman. Just to make the point clear, when Mr. Friedman 
goes to Washington on Government expense on Government business 
and chars:es the Government his railroad fare, he ought not to use the 
mileage books that your fund pays for on that same identical trip, 
ought lie ( 

Mr. Warner. No; I do not think he has. 

The Chairman. Have j^ou investigated the records in the office of 
the auditor of the Pennsylvania Railroad and the Cumberland Valley 
Railroad Co. '( 

Mr. Warner. No; 1 have not. 

The Chairman. Now, I suppose you would not have any memory 
as to different expense items incurred by Mr. Friedman on trips to 
Washington and charged to the athletic fund ? 

Mr. Warner. 1 would not; no, sir. 

The Chairman. Of course, you have no connection with the disci- 
pline of the school? 

Mr. Warner. No more than that I try to keep discipline when I am 
in charge of the bovs when T have them away on trips and out on the 
athletic held. 

The Chairman. Were you present on an occasion sometime ago 
when some boys were whipped in the lock-up down there ? 

Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you participate in that? 

Mr. W^arner. 1 was there simply to see that the boy — that the man 
that was doing the whipping 

The Chairman. Who was that? 

Mr. Warner. Mr. Dickey; he was acting disciphnarian at that 

The Chairman. What was he punishing that boy for? 

Mr. Warner. It was on a Saturday, and some of the boys, I think, 
had got hold of some liquor, and they wore raising a lot of "cain" down 
there aiul had openly defied them: and one of the boys — I think two 
of the boys — almost tlirew him off the upper balcony. They pretended 
they were going to. I do not know whether they really intended to. 

The Chairman. Were you there by the instruction or \\dth the 
knowledge of the sujjorintendent? 

Mr. Warner. No, sir. 

The Chairman. How did you come to go there? 

Mr. Warner. Well, the boys had acted so and defied the disciplina- 
rian to such an extent that they sent several of us 

The Chairman. Were 3"<)u ])resent when that infraction of disci- 
])hne occurred? 

Mr. Warner. No, sir. 

The Who was present when tliat punishment was 
inflicted ? 

Mr. Warner. Tlwre was Mr. Dietz, and Mr. Rudy, and Mr. 

Auffer, and myself. 

The Chairman. Did the su|)erintendent know anything about it? 

Mr. Warner. No, sir. 

The Wliy was he not informed? 


Mr. Warner. I think he disa})i)rovod of corporal puiiishmont. 

The Chairman. You do not moiiii to say that you participated in a 
punishment that you knew the superintendent would disapprove of 
at the time ? 

Mr. Warner. Well, we knew that the department was opposed to 
corj^oral punishment, but we thought it was a case where tliere was 
nothing else that would do as good; and it did have a wholesome effect 
upon those boys. 

The Chairman. How many of them wore whipped? 

Mr. Warner. I think there were three or four. 

The Chairman. Were they sober A\hen they were whipped ? 

Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. 

Tlie Chairman. How were they whipped ? 

Mr. Warner. With a small strai). 

The Chairman. Did they make a iight ? 

Mr. Warner. No. 

The Chairman. How many lashes were given them ? 

Mr. Warner. Oh, I could not say. 

The Chairman. Have they been good boys ever since? 

Mr. Warner. They liave; yes, sir. [ think they have all been 
pretty good. 

The Chairman. Now, going back to that fund just a moment, I see 
that in January, 1908 — were you there then ? 

Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman (continuing). A camera costing $140.60 was bought 
for Hugh Miller, the newspaj^er correspondent. 

Mr. Warner. That was January, 1908? 

The Chairman. Yes, sir; that is the information I have a minute 
from the records. Do you remember how they came to buy that 
expensive camera ? 

Mr. Warner. My impression was that that vras bought in 1907 
instead of 1908 no, that was right. That was during Maj. Mercer's 
administration. Mr. Miller had i^een to a lot of expense to get photo- 
graphs, and espcciall}" action photographs. There w^as no camera 
in town that would take rapid-action pictures, and the papers were 
all the time calling for that kind of pictures, and he spoke to myself 
and Maj. Mercer ahout it and prevailed upon us to buy him a camera 
that would do that v. ork. 

The Chairman. I notice, too, that on November 21, 1908, a bill 
of $\o was paid to the Postal Telegraph Co., alleged to he for election 

Mr. Wakner. What year? 

The Chairman. That was in 1908. I suppose that v/as the presi- 
dential electi('n? 

Mr. Warner. That was the ])residential election. I think they 
had the returns out there for the students and employees. 

Tlie Chairman. What is the present financial condition of the 
athletic association, Mr. Warner? Is it prosperous ? 

Mr. Waijnkr. Why. we just about- I think our receipts perhaps 
a little more than pay our running expenses. 1 do not just kn(^w 
what our balance would show now. 

The Chairman. How are those athletic funds handled at Cornell? 
You were there a while, I believe? 


Afr. Waiinkr. Yes. sir; tlu'v Ikia'c an incorpcrulcMl juhlctic 

The Ckaiumax. Is it separate from the school? 

Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And paid out for a.ny pur])()se that the directors 
wish ? 

Mr. Warner. I think that up there it is all confined strictly to 
athletics. I will tell you, this athletic fund, the surplus that is not 
needed for athletic purposes has lieen used hy the association for 
whatever ])urpose the}' thought would best ])enefit the school, and in 
doino- charitable work of different kinds. So far as we have been 
able in our judgment to do it, we have spent the money as best we 
coidd to the interests of the school. 

The Chairman. Do you have much troulde with your boys on 
account of drinking? 

Mr. Warner. The football boys? Very little. 

The Chairman'. I notice yon arc paying out of the athletic fund 
small items of .12 to the chief of police here. Mr. Boyer. for the arrest 
of each Indian caught down town without a pass, and also notice an 
item of $10 paid to Bentley. a detective, imd $10 to a sheriff, for the 
arrest of somebody. 

Mr. Warner. That has been one way of preventing the boys from 
going to town -getting the policemen to pick up these boys who went 
down town without permission, and to reimburse them for their work 
in doing that and in cooperating with the school, that has been done. 
There is no other fund, as I understand it -no Government fund - 
where that wcnild be a legitimate expense, and so that is taken out of 
the athletic association the same as other things are in that line. 

The Chairman. Did I ask you if there was much drinking in the 
school ? 

Mr, Warner. Yes, if there was among the athh^tic boys. 

The Chairman. Is it general amono; the male pupils ? 

Mr. Warner. There is more now tiian I think there used to be. 

The Chairman. What do you think that is due to ? 

Ml'. Warner. It is due to the fact that the boys are not so easy to 
manage as they used to be. They are a Uttle more up-to-date boys, 
they come there with a little more education. They are a little 
harder to keep track of. And it is also due to the fact that the 
discipHnarian does not take any extreme measui'cs, or does not try 
to keep the boys from getting to town. 

The Chairman. Wliat do you think is the remedy for that ? It 
must be evident, of course, that whatever the cause may be and 
however difficult it may be to prevent it, it is very demoralizmg to 
any school, especially where ghls are going to the same school. 

Mr. Warner. There is altogether too much latitude given the 
boys in comuig to town. That is, they arc not punished, and there 
is no effort made to keep them from coming to town by the discip- 
linarian, so far as I can learn. If j'ou are gouig to allow boys to 
run in town without permission they are goino- to get uito more or 
less mischief. Another thhig, I think, would be to drop the white 
boys, the boys that can not be distuiguished from whites. Those 
are the boys that get the li(iuor. The people down town would not 
sell an Indian liquor any more than they would ])()ison, but a white 



boy that has almost no Indian blood in him can go down there and 
buy it. 

The Chairman. Are there many white boys of that class out there ? 

Mr. Warner. There are c^uite a few. 

Senator Lane. These men dovni town that sell whisky, do they 
sell to boys even if they are white ? 

Mr. Warner. Oh, no. But some of these boys would be over 21. 
If they did not know that they were Indians it would be perfectly 
right to sell them Kquor. but if one of these boys goes in a place and 
they fuid that they are from the school they Avill kick them out. These 
people in towni — the white boys usually put one over on them. Some 
new students comes here, and they may get him to work it for them 
for a while, or he may get some friend down town to go and get it for 
him. I think if the disciplinarian would be more strict about the 
bovs going to town it would help in the discipline out there a whole 

Senator Lane. Did you ever suggest it to him ? 

^Ir. Warner. Yes, I have suggested it, and I have reported it when 
I saw boys m town in the evening without uniform. I have reported 
such boys, and others of the employees have. We found that the 
boys were not even called up about it, and we got tired in making 

Senator Lane. The present disciplinarian, I understand, has done 
everytliing he could to prevent it. Has Mr. Friedman the power to 
compel him to ? 

Mr. Warner. He can issue instructions. 

Senator Lane. Does not the disciplinarian obey those ? 

Mr. Warner. Yes: but I suppose he says he is doing all he can. 

Senator Lane. If he finds out he is not 

Mr. Warner. Well, I suppose he could wTite to Wasliington and 
ask that he be relieved, but that would not mean that he would be 

Senator Lane. But he could pr<»sent a case that would almost 
compel them to dismiss him ? 

Mj\ Warner. Well, if he had the cooperation of the Indian Office, 
as I think the superintendent of a school ought to have to get rid 
of incompetent and disloyal employees, that would be done, but it has 
not been the case. 

Senator Lane. Do you mean to say that if the supermtendent of 
the mstitution notified the authorities at Washington — that is, the 
Commissioner of Indian Affairs — that there was a disciplinarian who 
would not, after he had l)een warned of the facts, prevent the boys 
from going down town in such a way that they could get liquor, the 
Commissioner of Indian Affairs Avould fail to support the superin- 
tendent in his efforts in that direction ? 

Mr. Warner. I can only judge by what has been done. 

Senator Lane. They have failed heretofore ? 

Mr. Warner. Yes, sir; in bome cases they have failed to act on it 
for months. 

Senator Lane. Then, the logical deduction from that statement is 
that if tlie boys drink here and come down town without proper 
disciphne from the man employed for that purpose, the fault lies 

35601— PT 11—14 18 


with tlio Commissioner of Indian Affairs ? 'J^horo can not bo any 
other exphxnation. 

Mr. Warner. I think to a certain extent. 

The Chairman. Is there anything else, Senator ? 

Mr. Warner. I would like to be heard about the general situation. 

The Chairman. Very well. 

Mr. Warner. Practically all you" hare asked me about is the 
athletics. I have been athletic director there, \vTith the exception of 
3 years, under aU the different superintendents that the school has 
had, and I feel that I know something about the condition of affairs 
under all the administrations, and as long as Mi". Friedman's admin- 
istration is bemg questioned I would not feel that I had done my 
duty unless I had called attention to the work he has done there. 
He has built up the school, added to the plant, as you may see, to a 
large extent; he has improved sanitary conditions and the comfort 
of the students to a great extent 

The Chairman. Now, just say what he has done in detail, ^^^thout 
(Expressing an opinion. 

Mr. Warner. The students' dining room used to be a dingy old 
room, poorly lighted — that whole building was an old building. The 
rooms upstairs, where they had the sewing room, etc. — that has all 
been remodeled and improved and made a decent place for students 
to eat — metal ceilings put in, and floors and tlimgs lighted up so they 
don't have to go up there in the dark. That is simply one. 

Of course, wnen Mr. Friedman came there he found that there had 
accumulated m the athletic association quite a large fund. He had 
certain ideas as to how the grounds and the school could be improved, 
but he did not have the appropriation from the Government to do the 
work with. We talked it over — the executive committee of the 
athletic association — and this surplus fund of the atliletic association 
was used to a large extent to build several build iiigs there which !Mr. 
Friedman thought we ncn^ded. 

The Chairman. Tell us what buildings were constructt'd from that 

Mr. Warner, "\^^lat is called now the athletic quarters was an old 
hospital. They built a new hospital up on the other end of the 
grounds. That old building was an old. insanitary, tumble-down 
affair, which v.ould probably have been torn down as useless for any 
purpose whatever. As the dormitory facilities for the boys were 
crowded during the winter, and as that building was favorably 
situated to the athletic field, we thought it would be a good idea to 
remodel that building into a place for the bo3's to room: that they 
would have better facilities, etc. That building was remodeled and 
reconstructed, practically built over, at a cost of ten, tAvelve, or 
thirteen thousand dollars. 

Then the printing office, which used to be over in one of the shops- 
Mr. Friedman wanted the shop room for the other sho]is, and that 
building where the printing office is now was built from athletic funds, 
and that addition to the school building in which the business depart- 
ment is was also built out of tli<^ athletic money. 

Then the heating system has been changed: all those things. 
The girls' and boys' dormitori(>s have been better lighted. The 
school building has been repaii-ed and put in good shape, and l)etter 
lights put in for the students. 


Represontntivc Carter. ^^^lJ^t is 3'oiir salarv. Mi-. Warner? 

Mr. Warner. S4,000. 

Roprcsontativc Carter. Do you got your cxjxMises when you are 
on trips with tlie boys ? 

Mr. Warner. My (-xpenscs are paid; yes, su'. 

ReproscMitative Carter. Do you get any other emohiments at all 
from tlie athletic funds? 

Mr. AVarner. Xo, sir: except a ])lace to live. 

Representative Carter. That does not eonie from the atliletic 
funds ? 

Mr. Warner. That was built by the athletic association. 

Senator Lane. Are you suppli'Mlvnth forage? 

Mr. W^arner. No, sir. 

Repr-'sentative Carter. You do not get anything further than 
your ssiLirv and the things vou have just mentioned from the athletic 

Mr. Warner. Xo, sir: not a thing. 

Representative Carter. You undei-stand, of course, that there 
art- no accusations implied in any questions we are asking ? It is the 
only way we liave t(^ get at the facts. Tf I understand correctly, the 
secretary of the association with whom you play a game, when it is 
away from liome, files an account, scmding you your part and a check 
to correspond ? 

Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. That is all therc^ is to that ? 

Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. There are no other payments at all made 
to any])ody except that ? 

Mr. Warner. Xo. 

Representative Carter. And that is the way the games are settled, 
Ls it, by all the colleges ? 

Mr. W^vRNER. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. Is it customary amctng all the colleges to 
have publicity men like you have here ? 

Mr. Warner. In think nearly all of them. I know the UniA'^ersity 
of Pennsylvania has a press representative, they call him. He has a 
salary, and he devotes all his tune to that work. 

Representative Carter. How long have you been at Carlisle, the 
last time ? 

Ml-. Warner. Since 1907. 

Representative Carter. W'hen did you come here the first time ? 

Mr. Warner. I came in 1899. 

Representative Carter. How long did you stay? 

Mr. Warner. From 1899 to the spring of 1904, and then I came 
back in January, 1907. 

Representative Carter. Have you stated anything at all about 
the feeling that seems to exist between ]Mr. Freidman and some of the 
students ? 

Mr. Warner. Xo; I have not touched upon that. 

Representative Carter. Tell us what you tliink about it. 

Mr. Warner. I want to say that everything has run along smoothly 
at the school. Mr. Friedman did not go on a vacation last summer. 
He stayed here and worked last summer. Last fall we all remarked 
about how smoothly everytliing was going, and liow there seemed to 


be a good feeling' in the student body, and everything was going on 
line until Mr. Friedman's trouble witli Mr. Whitwell. 

Representative Charter. When was that ^ 

Mr. Warner. That was along just before the holidays, I think. 

Representative Carter. What was the trouble ? 

Mr. Warner. Mr. Friedman found, or thought, that the academic 
department had been running down and that Mr. "Wliitwell had not 
been doing his work as well as he should; so Mr. Friedman thought 
he would take a personal interest in building up the academic depart- 
ment. Mr. Wliitwell had — for instance, he had abandoned the study 
hour, which is the hour from 7 to 8 at night, when all the students 
must go to their rooms to study. They had been doing that until 
Mr. Whitwell abandoned that and instituted what he called a "quiet 
hour," when the boys and girls had to stay in their rooms and do 
their studying there. Mr. Friedman saw that that was a farce; they 
did not do their studying, and it just gave them the whole evening 
to themselves, and it was a farce. That was one of the things that 
Mr. Friedman reinstated. Of course, that was against Mr. Whitwell's 
recommendation, and there were several other instances of where 
Mr. Friedman issued orders in connection with the school and tried 
to get Mr. V7hitwell to cooperate with him in strengthening that 
department, and Mr. W^hitwell evidently resented Mr. Friedman's 
orders along that line and sort of took things into his own hands over 
there and trie d to straighten things out, and the result was finally, 
as I understand it, that they had a wordy battle in Mr. Friedman's 
office, in which Mr. Whitwell called Mr. Friedman some dirty names, 
and one thing and another. Mr. Friedman preferred charges against 
Mr. Whitwell for his insubordination, and those charges were not 
acted upon for nearly a ni' ntli — ^threo weeks, at least, as I remember 
it -and when they were acted upon, Mr. Whitwell, I think, was told 
that if it were not for his long years of service he would be summarily 
dismissed, but in view of the fact that he has been in the service so 
long, and his previoi!s record, they would transfer him to another 
school, and he would be transferred as soon as another place could 
be found. 

Rejiresentative Caktek. Jle was n^priinaiKh'd jind notificMl he 
wouhl be transferred? 

Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. 

Rei>resentative Carter. Tlien in taking th<' case up with the 
Indian Office at Washington th(^re was acc(nuj)lished then a r(>])riniand 
and the notification that he wouhl be transferred ? 

Mr. Warner. Yes, sir; the letters are on iile and can ])c looketl up. 
In s]3ite of the fact that he was t(>ld that, hv has been alh)wed by the 
Indian Office to remain there; and in my estimate and in IMr. Fried- 
man's, and all who are loyal to Mr. Friedman, it is ^Ir. WhitweJl who 
has been instrumental in stirring up all this insurrection. 

Representative (\vrter. You blame Mr. Whitwell for it^ 

Mr. Warner. Mr. Wliitwi'll and thrc(> ov fom- other cini)h)yee- who 
have a s])ite against Mr. P^riechntwi. 

Reju'csentative Carter. Wlio arc the three or four others •; 

Mr. Warner. Well, Miss Sweeney and Miss Canlield. and Mr. 
Mann, I think, are the ones. 

The Chairman. Wry well. Mr. Warnei-; thai will he all. 


Mr. Warner. 1 would like to add to that, if 1 may — as I under- 
stand tlic discipline has been one of the things that has been criticized. 
I would like to say that I think the investigation will show that the 
discipline at the small boys' quarters has been good, and the disci- 
pline at the girls' (piarters under Miss Ridenour has been good, and 
the only com])laints there have Ix'en that she has Ijeen too strict. 
My opinion is that the discipline at the large boys' cjuarters is respon- 
sible for the whole situation out there. Those boys have disciplinari- 
ans out there, and instead of running the large boys' quarters and 
telling the boys what they should do and what they should not do, 
they have allowed the boys to run them and tell them what they shall 
do and not do; and they have had such good success at that that they 
have got so they tiiink they can tell the other employees and even the 
superintendent what he can do. It seems to me if the large boys are 
going to run that school u]) there and run the disci])linarian, it is time 
a change was made. 1 know Mr. Friediuan has done everything 
in his power to stiffen up the disciplinarian at the large boys' (quarters 
and get him to stiffen up things down there. In my estimation, if 
the students and these disgruntled employees are allowed to feel that 
they can oust the superintendent or any other employee, nobody is 
going to b(r able to come theri^ and get any results unless he allows 
the students to*run things and do as they please. 

Representative Stephens. "\Miat remed}^ would you suggest? 

Mr Warner. I would suggest that the superintendent be given 

EQ-Cver by the Indiaii Office at Washington to remove the people that 
ave stirred up all this dissension. It is necessary to dismiss some of 
the ring leaders among the students. This thing has all been worked 
up by Whitwell and his crowd and a few of the students. 

Tlie Chairman. Is that a matter of evidence, or just your opinion? 

^Ir Warner. Well, there are facts to substantiate it. 

The Chairman. Well, tell us the facts. 

Mr. Warner. I do not know that I could state facts of my own 
knowledge. I have heard 

Senator Lane. I would hke to ask if things will be better until the 
superintendent can make make them better, with the cooperation of 
the Department of the Interior? 

Mr. Warner. No, sir. 

Senator Lane. You say that will recjuire a new disciplinarian and 
the cooperation of the Interior Department, but it seems as though 
you also tell me that the present superintendent is unable to secure 
that cooperation. Will this go on indefinitely ? 

Air. Warner. Unless the superintendent has the cooperation of the 
Indian Office at Washington. 

Senator Lane. He has not secured that yet, although he has tried, 
you tell me ? 

All". Warner. That is as I imderstand it. 

Senator Lane. Then it looks to me Uke it is a hopeless case. 

Mr. Warner. Unless the Indian Office can 

Representative Carter. Are these the only people who are in col- 
lusion with Mr. Whitwell — the three you mean ? 

Mr. Warner. Oh, no; there are others. I also v.ant to state that 
this committee, as I understand it — ^the committee of boys and girls 
that have been to see this committee — are supposed to represent the 
boys and girls. I do not know whether you understand it or not, but 


those committees were appointed by a faction among the student 
body. They do not represent the whole student body. They were 
elected by those who were against Mr. Friedman and do not represent 
but one side of the question among the student body. 

Representative Carter. You know when they were elected and 
about the meeting they had? 

Mr. Warner. Since Mr. Linnen came here. 

Representative Carter. About the meeting they had? 

Mr. Warner. Yes. sir; several of the boys told me that at that 
meeting they were asked to leave the room. 

Represetative Carter. Who were they, Mr. Warner? 

Ml'. Warner. Joe Guyon and William Garlow, two of the best boys 
w;e have here. I don't know of any others. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

Representative Stephens. How long have you been connected with 
this school ? 

Mr. Kensler. For one year and seven montks. 

Representative Stephens. "WTiat is your position here ? 

Mr, Kensler. Quartermaster. 

Representative Stephens. What are your duties here ? 

Mr. Kensler. To receive and issue supplies and to lay out the work 
in the shops. 

Representative Stephens. What shops do you have control of ? 

Mr. Kensler. The industrial sho])s - the car])enter shop, the black- 
smith sho]), and all those. 

Representative Stephens. You fiuuish tliem the su])plies thnt are 
needed in those sliops ? 

Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir; and direct what work shall be done there. 

Representative Stephens. Do yovi know why it was thoy dropped 
the agricultural work ? 

Mr. Kensler. No; that was before my time. 

Representative Stephens. That is, al)out three yeai-s ? 

Mr. Kensler. Yes. 

Representative* Stephens. Do you know why they dropped the 
telegraphy department ? 

Mr. Kensler. No; I am not acquainted with that. 

Representative Stephens. Do you know why they drt)pped the 
photography department ? 

Mr. Kensler. No; that is all on the other side, uuder the academic 

Representative Stephens. Do you know why they dropped the 
department of Indian sirts and sciences? 

Mr. Kensler. I Ix^heve they have that yet. I tiiouglit Mrs. Dietz 
was still working at that. You see, they w ork over there in the school 
building under charge (-f the principal, so, of coui-se, I ch^n't know 
what is going on over there. 

Representative Stephens. Do you know what the feeling is between 
the different teachei-s and the supermtendent of the school? 

Mr. Kensler. I could honestly say I don't know anything al)out 
that nny more tlnui I hear whis])ered about. 


lleprestnitativc Stephens. Do you know what the feeling is l)et\veeii 
the body of the students and the superintendent? 

Mr. Kenslek. It has been very bad of hite. 

Representative Siepiiens. Can you exphun to us why that has 
been ? 

Mr. Kenslek. I might ])e al)le t(). We unfortunately have no dis- 
ciplinarian. The hist one we had was very lax. He was a very fine 
gentleman, but he had not the ability to control the ]ni])ils. ()r. in 
other words, he was ratiier too tired to do it. He could not control 
them at all. Another ]iart of it is, for a long time before this man 
Friedman came here Mr. Mercer was here, and lie left the bo}s and 
girls have dances every week, and they came in together and it had 
bad results. The morals became very bad — that is the plain speak- 
ing of it. Then he cut that out. about a year and a half ago, since 
Miss Ridenour came here. They st(i))i)ed the dances. That set them 
wild right thoi and there. 

Representative Stephens. Who did they bhiine for tliat? 

Mr. Kenslek. Mr. Friedman. 

Representative Stephens. Wluit is the state of feeling at tiie pres- 
ent time between Mi-. Friedman and the 1)ody of students? 

Mr. Kenslek. The feiding is not very good as far as I hear. 

Representative Stephens. Do they jeer or make fun of him? 

Mr. Kenslek. Not in my presence, but I have heard they have 
done so, but not of my own knowledge. 

Re])resentative Stephens. Do you know anything about the moral 
condition of the school ? 

Mr. Kensler. Well, it is about as good as it has always been. 

Representative Stephens. Do you know anything of any trouble 
among the female students, any of them being bad and sent home in 
a delicate condition, etc. ? 

Mr. Kensler. I have heard they have been. 

Representative Stephens. About how many have you heard ? 

Mr. Kensler. Of late, not over three, I think, but there might 
have been more. My duties are outside of the quarters, and I have 
nothing to do with the boys and girls except when they come down. 
I have four boys detailed in my place. 

Representative Stephens. Have you heard any complaint about 
their not getting enough to eat ? 

Mr. Kensler. The only complaint I have heard is that just as 
soon as the football is over there is a howd that there is not enough to 
eat; but it is only in the bread that I have heard it. 

Representative Stephens. Is there any reason why they should 
not have bread enough i 

Ml'. Kensler. They can not go over the allowance, you know. 

Representative Stephens. Is it not a fact that we give them a 
lump-sum appropriation ? Do you think they are not able to supply 
the students ? 

Mr. Kensler. Oh, we are able, if tlie superintendent has the 

Representative Stephens. Hasn't he the authority? 

Mr. Kensler. No; the Indian Office issues a regular provision 
table, so much allowed for each 100 rations. 

Representative Stephens. How much is allowed, then, by the 
Indian Office ? 


Mr. Kensler. They have reduced it again. They have reduced 
tlie flour to 90 f)ounds for 100 rations, and the beef 85 pounds to 100. 
We had a special allowance for a long time while Gen. Pratt was 
there and up to a short time ago, but one day they sent in the new 
school regulations, about four months ago, and said that that would 
take the place of all former regulations in regard to food. But 
actually we have not got the bread. The baker should bake as 
much bread as they can eat. To-day he came to me again and 
figured up — he used more than tlie allowance last month, and I 
showed limi if I put the amount down which is necessary per 100, 
then we overdraw very nearly 300 pounds of flour in a month. That 
flour is not alone for bread, but they use a lot in the kitchen for mak- 
inp up pies and dumplings, etc. 

ilepresentative Stephens. That is taken away fx'om the body of 
students 'I 

Mr. Kensler. They eat it in another form. 

Representative Stephens. You say you have not funds sufficient 
to furnish bread enough for the students ? 

Senator Lane. That is an arbitrary arrangement of the depart- 

Mr. Kensler. Yes. 

Representative Stephens. Is there not a supplemental fund that 
these boys can be given enough bread out of? 

Mr. Kensler. We have to have authority. 

Representati\re Stephens. You do not have to have authority to 
use those football funds ? 

Mr. Kensler. I never saw that ( r heard anything of it. 

Representative Stephens. Yon do not think that could be used 
for buying bread when it can be used for every other purpose? 

Mr. Kensler. I don-'t know what is going on about the football 
iund. I never saw it, I know. It does ncit come under the Govern- 
ment, I understand. 

Representative Carter. You sav tliev allow 90 pounds of flour to 
1 00 rations ? 

Mr. Kensler. Yes. 

Representative Carter. How long is a ration supposed to last? 

Mr. Kensler. The ration is a day's provision. 

Representative Carter. They are allowed 90 pounds of flour a day 
for over 100 students ? 

Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir. 

Representative Carter. That is the maximum? 

Mr. Kensler. The maximum of the Indian Office; yes. 

Representative Carter. Who makes that allowance? 

Mr. Kensler. I guess Mr. Lane. 
■ Representative Carter. What do 3^011 think aiout the athletic 
association and the way it is handled? 

Mr. Kensler. Well, my belief is this, that as long as it is a Govern- 
ment instituti(!n it should be handl(>d by the Goveriunent. If I had 
the doing of it of course, it is only my opinion — it ought to ])e han- 
dled just the same as the Arni}^ and Navy teams. 

Representative Carter. They play on the grounds, and not out- 
side. That does away with all that mone}^ business. There are 
plenty of teams that will come here and play our Ijoys. The Army 
does not go outside, and neither does the Navy. The only game 
they do not play on their own grounds is the game they play together. 



The witness was duly swoni by the cliiiirmjin. 

The CiiAiKMAX. What (flicinl pesition do you hold in the Indian 
school, and how long have you l)eeu employed there? 

Mr. Stauffer. I have been eiuployed there since 1PG4; about H) 
years. I have been the bandmaster and musical director there ever 
since I have been there. 

The Chairman. How many ■i)u])ils are in the band? 

Mr. Stauffer. About 40; in the neighl^orhocid ( f 45 or 48. 

The CuAiRMAX. What do you tencli; what instruments ? 

Mr. Stauffer. I instruct tliem in a general way on all the instru- 
ments, but my principal instruments, that I play myself, arc the 
stringed instruments, tne piano and organ, and I nave a general knowl- 
edge of the brass instruments and reed instruments of the band, 
sufficient to ])e al)le to instruct them. 

The Chairman. Do you issue diplomas in your department? 

Mr. Stauffer. No ; that has never been the policy. 

The Chairman. How long does it take to complete the work which 
you do in the course which you give there? 

Mr. Stauffer. Well, the course we give in music has never been 
an outlined course. There never had been one before I came there, 
and never one handed me bj- anybody else, I have these pupils for 
a certain length of time — for the time they are there, with the excep- 
tion of the summer months. During the summer time they go out. 

Tiie ChxVIRMAN. Have any of them completed the course to your 
satisfaction ? 

Mr. Stauffer. We have a number of students, yes, that have 
become very proficient. 

The Chairman. Do they teach now ? 

Mr. Stauffer. Yes; I have a number of bo3^s in the Indian Service 
at the present time. 

The Chairman, Were you ever connected with the Department 
of Agriculture ? 

Mr. Stauffer. No; I never was. 

The Chairman. Did you ever have the position of instructor in 
agriculture ? 

Mr, Stauffer, I never did. Now, I looked that matter up. Mr, 
Linnen asked me that question, and I looked that up through some 
of our files out there, and came across a note written to me by Mr. 
Friedman saying that I should arrange to take some classes in agri- 
culture, I went to Mr. Wliitwell, and consulted with him about the 
matter, and he objected to any more classes being introduced in that 
department. He said that at present their courses were broken up 
sufficiently with music, and the business, and drawing. I reported 
the matter to Mr. Friedman, and it never was carried out. 

The Chairman, Are you skilled in scientific agriculture ? 

Mr, Stauffer, No, sir. 

The Chairman, Do you know anything about agriculture ? 

Mr, Stauffer, Only what I have taken in the schools that I have 
been in, I am a graduate of a normal school, and I took a course 
there in physics, and took physics in college. 

The Chairman, I am talking about agriculture. 


Mr. Stauffeh. S(j far as agriculturo is concornod, I am not an 

The Chaikman. Why did the superintendent instruct you to take 
classes in agriculture if you had no sj^ecial training? 

Mr. Stauffer. The position of agricultural teacher had been abol- 
ished, and he thought they ought to have some practical knowledge. 

The Chairman. Why was that done? 

Mr. Stauffer. I neyer went into that with him. 

The Chairman. Do you know a Miss Julia Hardin ? 

Mr. Stauffer. Yes; 'she is a ])upil of mine. She studied piano 
under me, and also in the mandolin club. 

The Chairman. Did you administer corporal punishment to her? 

Mr. Stauffer. I did. 

The Chairman. Under whose instruction? 

Mr. Stauffer. Mr. Friedman's instruction. 

The Chairman. State the circumstances. 

Mr. Stauffer. May I read them? 

The Chairman. No. You remember what you did? 

Mr. Stauffer. I remember what I did. but if I could submit this 
to you, it is a clear and concise statement of the case, and covers it 
to the best of my ability. 

The Chairman. Is this the statement which you made to Inspector 

[jinnon? . 

Mr. Stauffer. That is the statement that 1 gave him. 

The Chairman. You made one statement to him, and the follow- 
ing day decHned to sign it ? , , , i. , j 

Mr. Stauffer. I asked Mr. Linnen whether that was to be regarded 
as my final testimony. He said that for the present it was. I said 
I preferred not to sign it until I had rendered my entire testimon;^, 
and I requested that I be allowed to submit a fuller statement m 
justice to myself regarding the Julia Hardin affair. That has been 
about a year ago— not quite a year ago. I never expected to be 
called upon about this case and I had not refreshed my memory ot 
the case at all, and in thinking it over I realized that I had not cov- 
ered the ground sufficiently. « . 

The Chairman. Did you make any statements in the athdavit you 
gave Mr. Linnen and did not sign that were not true ? 

Mr. Stauffer. No, sir; I did not. 

The Chairman. So far as the statements in that go, they are correct < 

Mr Stauffer. So far as they go they are correct; yes. 

The Chairman. They did not sufficiently cover the case ? 

Mr. Stauffer. They did not sufficiently cover the case, in my 

estimation. ^ , , • re i -x i 

The Chairman. Now, after you had made this affidavit and were 
asked to sign it by Mr. Linnen you made some offensive statements 

Mr Stauffer.- I did, and 1 have a transcription of that that I have 

written down that I am wifiing to submit and swear to as to what 

occurred, to the best of my knowledge, in there^ 
The Chairman. Have you the statc^ment with you ^ 
Mr Stauffer. Yes; I have the statement, and I want to say, Mr. 

Robinson, that I could not see why Mr. Linnen's attitude should be 

offensive to me at all. I was not shown 


The Chairman. Ciin you oxpluiu why your uttitutlc shoultl have 
been offensive to him i You knew he represented the Gov^ernment 
of the United States 

Mr. Stauffer. He did not tell me that he representeil the Gov- 
ernment . 

The Chairman. You did not know that he was a representative of 
the Department of the Interior, of the Commissioner of Indian 
Affairs, and of the joint eommission of Congress ? 

Mr. Stauffer. I had no knowknlge whatever. 

The Chairman. But did you think he was ? 

Mr. Stauffer. I knew he was there for the purpose of investigat- 
ing this matter. 

The Chairman. Whom did you think he was representing ? 

Mr. Stauffer. I thought he was representing the Indian Office; 
that he was sent here from the Indian Office to make a fair investi- 
gation of the schook And in my estimation, Mr. Robinson, I don't 
see how a man who was a fellow Mason could treat me 

The Chairman. The Masonic business has nothing to do with that. 
Did you state to Mr. Linnen, "You can not bluff" us the way you have 
been doing things around here?" 

Mr. Stauffer. I said, sir — I mentioned that he could not bluff me 
into signing an affidavit. 

The Chairman. What did he say in reply to that ? 

Mr. Stauffer. He said, ''1 told you I was through with you." 

The Chairman. He told you you were excused? 

Mr. Stauffer. He told me he was through ^^•ith me. 

The Chairman. \Miat did you say in rej)ly? 

Mr. Stauffer. I said, 'Very well." 

The Chairman. Didn't you say to hhu. "You can not bhift' any- 
body around here ?" 

Mr. Stauffer. 1 made that remark. 

The Chairman. He told you you were excused. ^Tliy didn't 
you go on about your business ? 

Mr. Stauffer, Mr. Robinson, I admit I was hasty in what I said. 

The Chairman. You also made the statement, ''You are no gen- 
tleman ? "' 

Mr. Stauffer. Yes; 1 did. 

The Chairman. And that was after he told 3^ou you would not bo 
required to sign the affidavit? 

Mr. Stauffer. Yes. 

The Chairman. And as you passed out the door you made the 
statement again ? 

Mr. Stauffer. Yes; I admit that. 

The Chairman. Now, let us get down to the facts about that JuUa 
Hardin case. You say you had instructions from Supt. Friedman to 
administer corporal punishment to that girl ? 

Mr. Stauffer. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Wliat was his language and what diil he teU you 
to do ? 

Mr, Stauffer. He just simply said, "Go ahead. " 

The Chairman. Did you ask him for permission to do it ( 

Mr. Stauffer. J came back to the office and reported that I had 
been over there, and there was nothing that could be done with the girl 


at all, in niv estimation, and I thought she ought to be made to 
mind, even if it were necessary to give her a s}>anking. 

Senator Lane. How old is she? 

Mr. Stauffer. I judge she is about 17 or 18 years old. 

Senator Lane. Were you really going to spank a 17-year-old girl? 

Mr. Stauffer. Now, I feel — and I have conclusive evidence there 
in my statement that I have sworn to as the whole truth, that that 
girl admitted afterwards — that was the best thing that ever hap- 
pened to her. 

The C'HAIRMan. I^et me go ahead. You said you made a state- 
ment of the facts to Supt. Friedman, and he told you to go ahead and 
punish her. Did you tell him you were going to use a board? 

Mr. Stauffer. 1 did not use a board, Mr. Robinson. 

The Chairman. Wliat did j^ou use ? 

Mr. Stal'FFER. A little stick that Miss Ridenour handed me, a 
little piece of kindling wood about a foot long, two inches wdde, and 
a quarter of an inch thick. 

Senator Lane. Did you strike a 17-year-old girl with a stick of 
that kind ? 

Mr. Staltfer. Yes. sir; T did. I did not think I did anything 
that was cruel to the girl. The girl 

The Chairman. How many times did you strike her? 

Mr. Staufp'er. About eight or ten times. 

The Chairman. Did you throw her down? 

Mr. Stauffer. No; 1 did not. I slapped her 

The Chairman. Struck a girl 

Mr. Stauffer. I slapped her across the mouth when she became 
insolent to me. 

The Chairman. Did Superintendent Friedman give you authority 
to slap the girl ? 

Mr. Stauffer. He did not give me any authority except what I 
told you. He said to me 

The Chairman. When you slapped her, what else did you do? 
What did you do after you slapped her ? 

Mr. Staltffer. She covered ner face with her hands and got down 
on her knees, smd as she did I pushed her over so that she was on her 
hands and knees — with my hand. 

The (yHAiRMAN. When did you hit her with the board? 

Mr. Stauffer. After that Mrs. La Flesche came in, and Mrs. La 
Flesche had the chock she had refused to sign in her ofiice previous 
to this, which was for her transportation out to her country home. 
Mrs. La Flesche came in, and I told her the circumstances, and Miss 
Ridenour also did, and she still was defiant and still insisted she 
would not go. And I said to Mrs. La Flesche that I did not see any- 
thing that we could do. She said, "The only trouble is, she has not 
had enough." 1 said, "I am willing to give her some more if you 
think so," and Miss Ridenour brought this stick and said, "Here, 
use this." 

The Chairman. How much experience have you had as a school- 
teacher ? 

Mr. Stauffer, I am a graduate of the Bloomsberg State Normal 
School, holding a diploma as teacher in the State of Pennsylvania. 

The Chairman. Have you ever \v]n})pe(l a young lady in that man- 
ner before or since 'f 



Mr. Stauffer. No, sii-. 

The Chairman. Did it occur to you that that was a manly and 
courageous thing to do ? 

Mr. Stauffer. I have regretted ever sinc(^ that it was necossaiy 
for me to do it, but I did it as my duty prompted me to. 

The Chairman. You were moved solely by a sense of duty? 

Mr. Stauffer. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. You mean you slapped a young lady in the face 
from a sense of duty, and expect anybody to believe it'^ 

Mr. Stauffer. Well, that is my version of it. Senator Robinson. 

The Chairman. Well, I have been a school-teacher nwself, and 
am a man of some temperament myself. 1 can sympathize with a 
man that has a temper, but 1 never would make oath that I slapped 
a young lady 17 years, and then spanked her with a board, or what- 
ever it was, purely from a sense oi duty. 

I want you to describe that stick, or board, uv whatever it was, 
that you used. 

Mr. Stauffer. I have described it in there. It was about a foot 
long, 2 inches wide, and a quarter of an inch thick. 

The Chairman. Didn't you say m the ailidavit you gave Mr. 
Linnen it was at least 3 inches wide and .3 feet long < 

Mr. Stauffer. No; I did not say that. 

The Chairman. Did you ever whip a 17-vear-old bov with your 

Mr. Stauffer. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You would not do that, would you? 

Mr. Stauffer. No; and I regret that I did this other. 

The Chairman. You would take your vengeance out with your 
fists on young ladies. You have seen boys around that school drunk, 
heard them insult the superintendent and call him a "Jew" 

Mr. Stauffer. No, sir; never in my presence. 

The Chairman. And you never struck any of the boys ? 

Mr. Stauffer. I never heard them do that in my presence. 

The Chairman. You have handed me a typewritten statement 
vfhich you say represents your view of the matter after you had 
carefully studied it over. Did you confer \vith anybody when you 
prepared this statement ? 

Mr. Stauffer. No, sir; not about this statement. 

The Chairman. Whom did you confer with before you prepared 
it or while you were preparing it ? 

Mr, Stauffer. I did not confer with anybody about the state- 

The Chairman. Have you exhibited it to anyone since you pre- 
pared it? . 

Mr. Stauffer. No, sir. 

The Chairman. You make the statement here: 

By this time Mr. Wlxitwell had arrived on the scene and was told of what liad taken 

Elace. lie pulled the girl up from the floor and told her she would have to make up 
er mind to go, and that she had not had half enough, and threatened to give her 
more himself. After considerable persuasion on the part (jf all she finally consented 
to sign the check and agreed to go to the couiitry if we would let her wait until the 
morning train. As it was then too late to make the evening train, it was agreed she 
could wait, but Mr. WTiitwell ordered her i)ut in tlie detention room over night so she 
could not be persuaded by the otlier girls to change her mind. lie then accompanied 
Miss Ridenour to the room where she was to be kept . 


Is that statement correct ? 

Mr. Stauffer. Yes, sir; to the best of my knowledge, it is. 

The Chairman. Now, Mr. Whitwell swears as follows: 

I found the girl sitting on the floor sobbing and crying. Mr. Stauffer was standing 
near, very much excited. So was Miss Ridenour. I had learned on the way over, 
from Mrs. La Flesche, something of the trouble. I walked up to JuUa and said some- 
thing like this: "Julia, you know I wouldn't advise you to do anytliing against your 
best interests if I knew it. Now you have got yourself into this trouble and it is up 
to you to get yourself out of it. I couldn't tell you what is right or wrong, any better 
than what you yourself now know it, and I am not going to waste time talking to you, 
but I advise you to do as you are told, whatever that is." 

I turned to the matron and asked what they wanted her to do. The matron said 
she would have to go to the lockup. I said, '". Julia, will you go to the lockup?" 
She said, "I will go for you, Mr. Whitwell." I knew the girl meant what she said. 
I turned to the matron and said she was ready to go, but the matron did not seem to 
realize it. 1 said again that she was ready to go and told Julia to rise and go with her. 
She went, and that ended my connection with the case. 

That evening Mr. Stauffer came to our house and explaiiied his connection with 
the case. I told him that he would likely be blamed for using corporal punishment 
on the girl. He said that he had first gone to Mr. Friedman, and that while Mr. Fried- 
man didn't give him direct permission, he took it for granted that he was willing 
that the girl should be punished. He also added that the girl was ready to give in 
when I came over. I said so far as I was concerned I felt I had not done anything 
worth mentioning. 

Now, is the statement in that affidavit true that Mr. Friedman 
did not give you direct jiermission, but you took it for granted that 
he was willing ? 

Mr. Stauffer. The remark Mr. Friedman made — when I said the 
only thing I saw was to give her a spankmg, he said, ''Go ahead." 

The Chairman. That was direct instructions to do it, was it not? 

^Ii-. Stauffer. That is what I understood. 

The Chairman. Did you tell Mr. Whitwell that Mr. Friedman had 
not given you direct permission ? 

Mr. Stauffer. I do not think I ever told him that. 

The Chairman. Did you go over to his house that night and explain 
your connection with the whippmg of the girl ? 

Mr. Stauffer. I do not think that I did. 

The Chairman. Do you remember going over there that night ? 

Ml". Stauffer. I do not remember going over there that daj'" at all. 

The Chairman. Do you remember makmg any explanation ? 

Mr. Stauffer. No; I think the explanation was made right there 
iin the room at the tune. 

The Chairman. You do not remember about it? 

Mr. STAt^FrpiR. No. 


by the chairman. 

superintendent of the Carlisle Indian 

The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

The Chairman. You are the superintendent o 
School ? 

Dr. Friedman. I am. 

The Chairman. How long have you served in that capacity, 
Doctor ? 

Dr. P'riedman. Since April 1, 1908. 

The Chairman. Now, tlu^rc has bcH'ii presented to this joint com- 
mission complaints as to the management and control of the institu- 
tion. Amonir tliem are these: That there is a general state of dis- 




order in the school, a strain(^d relationship between yourself and the 
pupils and between yourself and niany of the employees; that you 
have not manifested a fri(^ndly syjupat hy for the pupils in vour admin- 
istration of the affairs of the seliool ; that the food supply furnished 
is inadequate: that in the accounts which you have rendered the 
Government the same have been falsified in this, that you were fur- 
nished mileage books at the (^xpense of the athletic association and 
used the same in travel on the Cumberland Valley Railroad and the 
Pennsylvania Raih-oad to and from Washington; that for the same 
trips and on the same travel you submitted an item for railroad fare 
in your accounts rendered the Government; that vou have caused 
or permitted the number of pupils actually attendmg the school to 
be misrepresented for the pm-pose of reducing the average cost per 
pupil; and perhaps some otlier matters, to which your attention may 
be called. 

We will be very glad to have any statement or testimony that you 
may care to offer m connection with your administration there espe- 
cially touching these matters. If you wish, we would be glad for 
3^ou to go ahead and make a statement. 

Dr. Friedjiax. I made a few notes with reference to it to guide 
me, but I presumed that probalily you woTild want to ask me some 
questions first. 

The Chairman. I think 1 will do that. What is the total number 
of pupils in the school ? 

Dr. Friedman. At present ' 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. 

Dr. Friedman. I could not give you the exact figures. There are 
nrobably — I think there is an actual attendance of 816, but there is a 
larger enrollment of students' names, students who have been there 
this year. 

The Chairman. Wliat are the general conditions prevailing in 
the school, with reference to order or disorder? Are they satis- 
factory to you ? 

Dr. Friedman. The}^ are not satisfactory to me, sir; no. 

The Chairman. In what respect ? 

Dr. Friedman. The discipline among the boys is not satisfactory, 
and among a great many of the students in the various quarters there 
has been a condition of unrest created by employees who are disloyal 
and who are incompetent, who have been repeatedly reported to the 
Indian Office, and wdio have been kept there regardless of my reports. 

The Chairman. Now, when did this condition as to laNity in disci- 
pline arise, Dr. Friedman ? When did you first observe it '( 

Dr. Friedman. Now, the ])resent condition goes back to about 
Christmas time, possibly a little before, possibly a month l)efore. 
There was a certain amount of unrest about the time some difficulty 
arose between myseK and the principal teacher. I shall narrate that, 
difficulty if you want to hear it. It is a ver}'' important matter. 

The Chairman. Very well. 

Dr. Friedman. When I first came to Carlisle nearly six years ago 
I was told to build up the school, which was in a rather nm-down con- 
dition, in the mechanical plant, in the r'ourse of study, in tlie indus- 
tries, and in the general tone of the disciphne. But T realized it could 
not be done at one time, and 1 took it up department by department. 

I took up the various industries, the farms, the health, t he discipline, 



the morality, and I left the school work go until a later period, be- 
cause the Carlisle School had always had a rather good reputation 
for its academic work. Durin'jj the last yeai- I became convinced of 
laxities in the administration of the school building. The failure of 
incentive on the part of the head there in that building to inspire the 
teachers and the general laxity of conditions in the building were 
afiFe^ting the rest of the school. I thought this should be remedied, 
and I took that matter up. 

I was there all the summer, with the possible exception of a day or 
two. I have for several years been suggesting to Mr. Whitwell that 
they install, an evening study hour, whicli he hud abolished with the 
approval of Supt. Mercer the year he came there, and which is a fun- 
damental need in any institution. Instead of that he had an even- 
ing study hour in the dormitory rooms, and it was not a study hour, i 
The boys lay around on the beds and told stories, and it created dis- i 
order rather tlian improved their intellect. Every time I asked him 
about the study hour he indicated that he was unfavorable to it and i 
that the Indian OfTice was unfavorable to it. But tlie thing got to I 
such a pass that I finally wrote the office myself to find out whether 
the offi'-e was opposed to an evening study hour. I told them the 
general conditions. They wrote back tind said they were not, that 
they had issued no instructions that it be discontinued, and that, as a 
matter of fact, they were favorable to it. I thereupon instituted it. I 
realized it was a large step, because it meant taking up the evenings 
of a great many teachers in the academic building. They had been 
free in the evenings. I realized that Mr. Whitwell was opposed to it. 

I worked out a plan during the summer, and started out at the be- 
ginning of the year. I took up other matters, such as the general 
monthl}^ entertainment, which was badly conducted, and improved 
them by having every department represented. I took up the Mon- 
day chapel exercises and arranged that so that it would be of some 
use to the students by giving them a Bible reading and giving them a 
good talk on some practical subject. A great many of the minor 
matters in the building were taken up. 

Mr. Whitwell chafed at that. He had previously spent a great 
deal of time away from the building. He is really an assistant super- 
intendent, but he is really of no assistance whatever. He went to 
the school in the morning, and went back to his house at 4 o'clock, 
and nobody could find him after that. Under the new conditions he 
chafed, and finally came into my office and insulted me. 

The Chairman. What did he do and say ? 

Dr. Friedman. If you insist upon the words, he called me a dirty 
skunk, and he said a number of other things along the same fine. I 
am convinced from his manner that he came in there to do it. Now, 
I am not an active man, understand, nor a prize fighter, and any 
blackguard can come into my office and say anything he pleases. I 
took the matter up with the office, and reported the matter, both by 
letter and by telephone message to the commissioner, and I insisted 
that this man be suspended at once. 

Senator Lane. How long ago was this, please,? 

Dr. Friedman. About four months ago. It was more than four 
months. I called up the commissioner on the telephone, and he was 
not in favor of suspending anyone. He said it was a very serious 
thing. I sent a full report in^ and gave Mr. Whitwell a chance to 


answer the cluirges, as I had to do in every case of that kind. The 
same process has to be gone through wfth any employee on the 
grounds. If conditions warrant their removal, it is up to me to prefer 
charges. They have a chance to answer them and prefer counter- 
charges; and as a general thing it means an investigation and dis- 
ruption of the school, and in this matter it was even more serious than 
anytliing of that kind, because this man went around bragging about 
what he had done. It was current information around the grounds. 

I called the Indian Office up a few dnys later, and I did not get any 
satisfaction. After waiting for several weeks, I went down to Wash- 
ington and there was nothing done, and after a wait of about two 
months after this thing occurred I finally went down there deter- 
mined that some action should be taken. ""l saw Commissioner Sells, 
and he said, "Why, I have not had a chance to go over this man's 
statement at all. I promise you to reply in three days." 

Well, in three days Mr. Whitwell got a letter telling him that he 

would be transferred, that he had been insubordinate and insulting, 

land that he would have been dismissed except for length of service. 

There was nothing mentioned about the character of his ser^dce in his 

I letter. I beheve that was the 25th of November. It was just like 

threatening a child with a licking and holding it oft' until some time 

in the future. This man was angry, and he knew that the worst that 

could happen to him was a transfer, and he had already been active, 

and he became even more active. 

' The Chairman. What did he do ? 

! Dr. Friedman. He inspired the students with agitation. He called 
[the students repeatedly into his office over there near his rooms. 
!He got a matron by the name of Miss Sweeney, who w^as over there as 
' a teacher, and who had been refused leave at a certain time because 
she was acting contrar}- to the regulations and not in accordance with 
I previous instructions, and she united with him in the matter. And he 
got another teacher over there in the school building, a young fellow 
by the name of Mann, who I found to be a disrupting element on the 
campus, with him in the same work. And by degrees he got two or 
■three others. 

Those things spread. Mr. Whitwell was on the campus there; 
he had insulted his superintendent, and he was openly declaring that 
the superintendent would leave and that he would win. One of their 
general remarks was that they would "see the tail feathers of the 
superintendent going out of the place," and I was helpless. I have 
reported these things to the office continually, sir. 
j Now, they have gotten these students in there — tliis thing com- 
[menced then. There never has been a condition of this kind on 
'those grounds. I have been there six years this March, and this is 
'rather a late day for a condition of that kind to be suddenly brought 
'about by natural conditions. If I had been unpopular \\-ith the 
i students it would have been manifested the first year. If there had 
jbeen such trouble or laxity of discipline it would have been manifested 
jthe first year, because one of the complaints against the former ad- 
j ministration was laxity of discipfine. But here was a condition that 
jWas fomented by employees on the campus, one of whom is assist- 
ant superintendent. 

35601— PT 11—14 19 


Now, coupled -with that, I think, is the inefficiency of the disci- 
plinarian — Mr. McKcan; Mr. McKean is a good young fellow, he 
has a hearty laugh, he likes the out-of-doors. But he is phlegmatic 
rather, and his tendency is to let the boys alone. He won't correct 
the boys. If something comes up that the students want to do or 
do not want to do, and they come to him, why, he says, "I can not do 
anything about that; those are the superintendent's orders." I just 
recently had a case of that, just the other day — a thing that has 
never occurred there before. Four boys came u]) into my office. 
They were detailed from the masonry department to fix some pipes, 
and they com])lained to Mr. ^McKean that there were some boys in 
the guardhouse vrho ought to have been detailed for that. 

''Weil," he says, "I can not do anything for you; I have orders 
from somebody else. You go down and see the quartermaster." 
They went down to the cfuartermaster, and the quartermaster toki 
them to go to work. He notified ilr. McKean that that work was 
to be done, and the students were to perform it. They again com- 
plained to him, and he said, ''Go up and see Mr. Friedman about it." 
and they came to me. I said, "You boys are here to do v."hat is 
ex})ected of you. You are here to go to school and attend to your 
work both. The Government does not conduct this school so the 
students can run it, and when you are given a certain task to do the 
thing to do is to go to work and do it." And I sent Mr. McKean 
word that the shifting of responsibility in that way must cease. 

Senator Lane. Did yon send him word or tell him orally? 

Dr. Friedman. I wrote out a little note and turned it over to the 
stenographer to typewrite, in order not to allow tlie studeiits to hear 
me doing it. 

Now, gentlemen, I have here a mass of 100 orders that I have sent 
to Mr. McKean — smoking, going to town, lack of cleanliness in the 
building. I have talked to him personally about these things re- 
peatedly. He corrects them for a day, and then they go ahead. I 
have reported them to the office. 

I think he recognizes that he can not do the work, and he recently 
asked for a superintendency, or position as super\dsor of farming; 
and in submitting the indorsement I told the office that possibly as 
assistant su])ervisor of farming he might render some service. My 
experience has been that the average man who can not fill a place 
usually wants a position as supervisor or something of that nature. 

The Chairman. Now, you have an assistant disciplinarian there — 
Mr. Denny. Wlio assigns their work ? Is that fixed by statute ? 

Dr. Friedman. Well, they have charge of the buildings under the 
regulations of the school. Mr. Denny is a very good disciplinarian. 
Mr. Denny's difficulty was a tendency toward harshness wdth his 
boys. I had to re})rimand him several times about that. 

The Chairman. What do you mean by "harshness?" 

Dr. Friedman. Well, he is a big, husky Indian, and he used his 
hands on the bo3^s. 

The Chairman. Did he knock them down occasionally ? 

Dr. Friedman. When I ffi-st came to Carlisle I knew the conditions 
of corporal punishment there before. I knew that the boys and girls 
were whipjied right along, and they were put in dungeons there, in 
an old guardhouse that was a disgrace. It had wooden floors in it, 
and the sanitjition was a^\^'ul. I had that thing fixed u]) and had 



comout floors put in, but evoii at that the conditions were dreadful. 
The}" were put in there for two or three months at a time on bread 
and water. These things have come to me from employees who 
were there. A superintendent liad one of the girls take hov clothing 
off and put a nightgown on and got her out there in the middle of the 
court in front of the girl's buihhng to whip her, and have the girls 
lined up in front of the building there. 

The Chairman. To witness it? 

Dr. Friedman. The thing is general information among the people 
who were there. It was told me by Mr. Ridenour, who had been 
told by a girl who was there at the time. 

The Chairmax. What superintendent was that? 

Di-. Friedman. Do you want his name? Pratt. One of their 
favoiite metliods of ]:)unishment was to put a big sign on the front 
and on the back of a boy if h(^ had committed a theft oi- told a false- 
hood: "I am a thief" or "I am a liar" and mai-ch him up and down 
that campus. 

The Chairman. To luuniliatc^ and degrade him? 

Dr. Friedman. Yes. 

The Chairman. What is your theory of punishment proper to bo 
enforced in a school of that kind, taking into consideration the ex- 
perience you have had tlieie and your knowledge of the })upils? 

Dr. Friedman. When I came there I had had experience in other 
schools. Before I entered the Indian Service I had taught many 
white students in Cincinnati. I had classes in the University of 
Cincinnati settlement, and I was at Phoenix, in the Philippines, and 
at Haskell. I am opposed to corporal punishment; and one of the 
iirst things I did when I came to Carlisle was, in speaking to all the 
members of the faculty, to tell them that I did not want any corporal 
punishinent there; that if it became necessary for a student to be 
whipped, the thing to do was for the employee to come to me and first 
obtain my permission; that it was to be done in a humane way, and 
that I wanted them to understand that as a general proposition I was 
opposed to that; that in a large institution where there was 85 em- 
ployees coming from various walks in life, some one is going to abuse 
that authority, some one is going to extremes, and it simply could not 
])e permitted. 

I diti not let that be known among the students, because I have 
been a teacher and 1 have been among boys, and I knew the bad 
effect anything of that kind would have, but I allowed it to be under- 
stood among the employees. 

Representative Carter. I want to ask j^ou if you kiiev/ of any cases 
of corporal punishment that have been reported to this commission, 
some of them verified by teachers who are loyal to you. 

Dr. Friedman. Well, I know of some of this difficulty with Mr. 
Denny, and I wrote him a letter which I have here. I think you will 
be interested in it. 1 wrote the letter al)out a year ago. 

The Chairman. Do you know of the Julia Hardin case, and of Mr. 
vStauffer's punishment of her? 

Dr. Friedman. Yes, Senator. 

The Chairman. Did he get your permission to do that? 

Dr. Friedman. He did not exactly get my permission to do it, but 
I in(Hcated that he should handle that thing in the way that he found 
best jifter he trot over there. 


The Chairman. What representation did ho make ? 

Dr. Friedman. He said something to me — there was a great deal 
of difficulty about it. The girl was stubborn, and I was trying to 
find !Mr. Whitwell, who was the proper man to handle a matter of that 
kind. He was busy at the office at the time and the matron said she 
could not do a thing and Mr. Stauffer happened around there and I 
sent him over. Mrs. La Flesche was there too. She is the outing 
manager, and it was a matter concerning the outing. The girl had 
given a great deal of trouble. 

The Chairman. You do not know this of your own loiowledge? 

Dr. Friedman. She is a very nice girl, and you would not ordinarily 
think it that way. Her record, so far as disclosed by the teachers, is 
almost perfect. 

The Chairman. Now, you do not really know of your own personal 
knowledge ? 

Dr. Friedman. I was not there, Senator. 

The Chairman. What representations did Mr. Stauffer make to 
you when he came and told you about that case and you tacitly 
agreed that he should whip her? 

Dr. Friedman. It is a long time ago, but as I recall it, nothing 
could be done. 

The Chairman. What did ho have to do with it? 

Dr. Friedman. He volunteered to do it, Senator. He was an 
employee in the school, and hei'O was a girl that the matron could not 
do anything with. 

The Chairman. You have had a great many cases where the boys 
have defied you and openly violated your instructions. Mr. Stauffer 
does not go around whipping the boys for that, does he ? 

Dr. Friedman. I do not ask anyone to help me out, Senator. 

The Chairman. That is the very point I am making. I am trying 
to find out where ho got on. 

Dr. Friedman. Why, Senator, ho was over there trying to help 
the matron who was in difficulty, and there were several other em- 
ployees there with him. 

The Chairman. You approved of this course ? 

Dr. Friedman. It was a rather unusual case. 

The Chairman. But you approve of this course? 

Dr. Friedman. After he explained the circumstances to me. and 
knowing it was done in a proper way, it seem.ed to me at the time to 
be a proper punishment, especially in view of the fact of the employees 
that were there as eye witnesses. 

The Chairman. You knew that ho slapped her first? 

Dr. Friedman. I do not recall. 

The Chairman. You thought that was proper, for a man to slap a 
young lady ? 

Dr. Friedman. No; I do not think it is proper. 

The Chairman. You knew that ho slapped her ? 

Dr. Friedman. No. 

The Chairman. Well, he admits that he did. Do you think that 
is proper? 

j)r. P^riedman. Well, I am not favorable to slapping students. 

The Chairman. Well, you might give me a frank answer. 

Dr. Friedman. I do not tliink thoro is any occasion whore it is 
]> roper to slap. 


The Chairman. He says that ho s})ankecl her with his bare hand, 
and then took a stick, a j^iece of kiudlmg, which wtis handed him by 
Miss Eidenour, and whi])])ed her; and she was still stubborn and 
somebody remarked that slie had not had enough yet, and he whip})ed 
her some more. Xow, do you think a man who ])ractices corporal 
punishment on a young lady 18 years old, whose record was good 

Dr. Friedman. Her record was not good. 

The Chairman. You just said it was. 

Dr. Friedman. I said she was a nice kind of girl. The matron can 
give you that information. 

The Chairman. She said that her record was good. 

Dr. Friedman. She signed up for the outing party, and signed u]) 
again, and refused to go. 

The Chairman. Aside from that — that was an act of insubordina- 
tion. "VMiat I am trying to find out is whether you ap])rovetl of the 
action of Mr. Stauffer and the manner in which he })unished that girl, 
and whether it was done with your knowtedge in advance ? 

Dr. Friedman. I am frank to say — — 

The Chairman. I am frank to sa}^ to you that I do not believe you 
or he either would have treated a man that way, or an Indian boy of 
that age. You would not have had the courage to do it, to slap an 
18-year-old Indian boy in the face. 

Dr. Friedman. I have told you my general attitude, that I disap- 

The Chairman. But in this particular case. 

Dr. Friedman. In that particular case it was done by a loyal em- 
ployee, doing what he considered to be in the best interests of discip- 
line, and I shall share the responsibility. 

The Chairman. You may have to take it all. 

Dr. Friedman. I shall share any responsibility connected with it. 
The man's motives must be considered; the man's record must be 
considered; the man's influence among the boys and girls must be 
considered, and the effect of that ])articular case must be considered, 
and the fact that there was a superintendent teacher there, the head 
matron there, and the manager of the outing system. 

Senator Lane. Some of them came in afterwards. 

Dr. Friedman. They were all there, Senator. Two employees 
tried to manage that girl — the matron and the manager of the outing 

The Chairman. You only know what you have been told, of course ? 

Dr. Friedman. I do not know; I was not present. I simply know 
what came to me from those emplo^^ees. Mrs. La Flesche came to 
me and told me she did not think that girl had got enough. 

The Chairman. AMiy dichi't you have Mr. Stauffer go and whi]) 
her again ? 

Dr. Friedman. I Iuxxq indicated my general feeling with refen^nce 
to that. I will tell you another case now. There is a case that hap- 
I)ened just a few months ago where the farmer here took a stick and 
broke a boy's arm in view of a little altercation he had had with him. 
And I reported tiie matter to the Indian Office and recommended that 
the man be dismissed, and the man is there now. 

Representative Carter. What is the farmer's name ? 

Dr. Friedman. Mr. Grav. 


Representative Carter. Is he the head farmer or assistant farmer ? 

Dr. Friedman. He is head of one of the farms. 

I am opposed to corporal punishment, Senator. I do not want 
you gentlemen to get the wrong idea of Stauffer. He is not a ruffian 
or a man of that type. 

Senator Lane. But is he the man to slap a girl? 

Dr. Friedman. I am opposed to any kind of punishment meted out 
to girls. It may have been that he just simply lost his temper. I 
was not there. 

Senator Lane. It must have been something like that. 

Dr. Friedman. I went through the boys' building here a month or 
so ago. You say the boys have been doing these things to me. I 
do not think there is any danger of an Indian boy getting into a thing 
of that kind. I went through the boys' building about 10 o'clock — 
late at night. I went through because I had continually complained 
to the disciplinarian about conditions in that building, and they were 
not remedied, and I wanted to see for myself just what they were. I 
found some of the boys sleeping two in a befl. There was not many 
of them had their night gowns on. They were all furnished with 
night gowns. They had the ventilation windows closed, iind a num- 
ber of them were sleeping in other rooms, where they had no right 
to be. 

When I got up to the third story some boy downstairs suddenly 
turned out the lights while I was in that building with 250 or 255 
boys. Some fellow started to yell and before I knew it they were all 
yelling. They never tried to do me any harm. 

The Chairman. While you are speaking of that, have they mani- 
fested any insubordination in your presence ? 

Dr. Friedman. That was the only occasion I have ever seen of 
that kind. 

The Chairman. You have not heard them call you opprobrious 
names or any names, for that matter ? 

Dr. Friedman. No; I have not. There may have been something 
of that kind without my knomng it — in letters or something of that 
kind. I recently saw a letter written by an employee who was doing 
that — a man who was mixed up with this fellow ]\iann. 

Thf^ Chairman. Who was that ? 

Dr. Friedman. A fellow by the name of Bainey. They were stay- 
ing over at the athletic quarters — employees, mind you. They were 
getting the boys in groups around them and telling how this, that, or 
the other department of the school ought to be run, and using language 
that was absolutely foul. One of these men was a man by the name 
of Bainey, a temporary employee. The other fellow was a man by 
the name of Mann. I moved him out of tliat building and rt^ported 
that matter to the office. 

The Chairman. He is gone now, is he ? 

Dr. Friedman. No; he is there. 

Inspector Linnen. He has been referred to twice, and, in justice 
to him, who has not had an opportunity to appear bef<u-e your body 
and say anything, T will have to say that I have his affidavit, which 
I shall l)e glad to furnish you. He absolutely denies all of these 
charges that are made. 

Or. Friedman. Well, three of the boys came up to my office, and 
one of them was the caretaker of the building. They came up there 

(wniisfj': iNDT.w sciiooi. 1255 

separately and their sti ries absclutelv ajjreed. I know from my own 

Eersunal cbservation that he was not a man of good influence. He 
ad charge of the Y. M. C. A. and simply made a joke of it. He never 
had any regular meetings. 

The Chairman. Do you remember the case of and ? 

They were charged Anth fornication and confined in tlio county jail 
for 60 day. 

Dr. Friedmax. Yes; 1 recall it. As 1 recall that case~l tliink 
that was the case — these students both had bad records. The Ix)}- 
came from one of the far Western States. The disciplinarian wrote 
me a note at the time, stating that tliis boy had been sentenced for 
horse steahng, or something of the kind. He had been in trouble 
repeatedly on the reservation. The girl had been in trouble under 
the outing system and at the school. She lived on a reservation up 
in New York, and tlieir influences were extremely bad, and it was a 
very severe violation of the rules — their getting together. After going 
over the matter thoroughly we thought an example ought to be made 
of those students. I turned the matter over to Mr. McKcan and asked 
him to take the matter up with the local county judge and see what 
could be done. Personally I was in favor of their being sent to a refor- 
matory, in view of their record and the conditions surrounchng the 
case, but they w^ere sent to the county jail. After that they were 
returned to their homes. It was done as an example for the other 
students, as well as a matter that concerned them person;illy. 

The Chairman. That was done at 3^our expense t 

Dr. Friedman. At my expense; yes, sir. I want to say in that 
connection that '>ve sent about four students away in that way — 
several of them were boys — and that has been done repeatedly in 
the past, and the court records of Carlisle show that there have been 
fewer instances of that kind — — 

The Chairman. Have there been other cases where the}" have been 
imprisoned for these offenses ? 

Dr. Friedman. There was a boy sent to jail. 1 had him s(Mit to jail 
because of continued tliievery of some kind. 

The Chairman. Steahng pies, was it not { 

Dr. Friedman. It may have been: but he had ])een guilty of steal- 
ing re])eatedly. 

The Chairman. You had ^Ir. Whitwell make that charge. Who 
did you have make that charge \ 

Dr. Friedman. I think that matter was discussed in faculty 

The Chairman. Some one made the charge. 

Dr. Friedman. I do not recall who it was. 

The Chairman. Do you know that the laws of Pennsylvania do not 
pro^'ide imprisonment for the olfense of fornication; that it is only a 
fineable offense under the lav/s of Pennsylvania \ 

Dr. Friedman. It may be they were fined 

The Chairman. No; it shows, just as you say, that the county 
judge ordered them' to jail for GO days. 

Dr. Friedman. Of course, I am not a lawyer, gentlemen, had I took 
it for granted tliat the judge was doing what he had authority to do. 

Th(> Chairman. While those ])upils were in jail was there any 
attention oaid to them ])V the school luithoi-ities, or w(>re thev h^ft 



to such punishment and surroundings as surrounded them in the 

Dr. Friedman. They were undoubtedly looked after by the 
authorities in the jail. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether the boy was provided with 
any change of clothing or not ? 

JDr. Friedman. I presume any jail looks after conditions of that 

The Chairman. The statement has been made — and there is 
some information, though I do not state it as that — that he stayed 
there 70 days without a change of clothing. 

Dr. Friedman. That is cause for investigation of the jail. 

The Chairman. I don't know — if you have people put in jail 
you are chargeable with some knowledge of their rights, I think. 

Now, let me ask you this question. You did not have any idea of j 
takmg those people back after they came out of jail, did you ? 

Dr. Friedman. Oh, no; there was no desire to have them back. 

The Chairman. Yo,u not only did not want to have them therej 
but you did not intend to let them return ? 

Dr. Friedman. We did not want them on the grounds. 

The Chairman. Why would it not have been better to send them 
on home ? 

Dr. Friedman. I tell you, a great many of those students come 
there with very bad records. Once there was a boy sent there who 
had been sentenced to jail for murder. They send us the worse 
students on the reservation right along. How can we tell ? 

The Chairman. I don't know; I am trying to find out. If you 
can not tell, how do you know ? 

Dr. Friedman. Because T liave tlie letters after they are there, 
when some little question arises. For instance, there is a girl there 
by the name of Minnie Apache. She was at Haskell, and whipped a 
matron there and ran away. She eats peyote. She came to Carlisle 
and started to stu* up things with the matron there — and we have a 
very excellent matron there. 

The Chairman. Miss Ridenour? 

Dr. Friedman. Miss Ridenour, a woman that is thoroughly con- 
scientious, who looks sterner than she is. Slie has a good heart, and 
I tliink she has the sympathy of the students except when they are 
agitated and aroused against her by persons on the grounds. 

This girl did everything she could to get tlie matron to send lier 
home, and I wrote to the agent — Mr. Stoker. He says, "We do 
not want her here. She has been running everybody around here, 
and what she needs is severe discipline." On one occasion she had 
som? difTiculty with the matron, and the matron locked her up here, 
and ^^hen they brought her some food she took the whole tray and 
dashed it riglit at them. She had a very stubborn will. We found 
out on one occasion that her parents were sending her peyote. I just 
mention that to show the character of some of the students. 

This boy that I mentioned was sentenced to" the reformatory for 
killing a man — a very shrewd boy; a man really. Before he got 
through there he was raising Cain; getting drunk. We have had 
eases of that kind repeatcnlly. 

The Chairman. Do vou have manv cases of iinnioralitv ^ 


Dr. Fkiedmax. I think wo have fewer cases of immorcility, Senator, 
than you would have with the same number of white boys and girls 
under similar circumstances. 

The Chairman. That is a very gratifying statement. How many 
cases have you had in your administration ? 

Dr. Friedman. I presume there is a record over iliere; I do not 
think there are very many. 

The Chairman. I presume \ ou do not cany tliem in \-our memory ? 

Dr. Friedman. For instance, in the last year we have had, I think, 
three or four cases. I can not recall with accuracy; possibly four or 
five. We have some cases of students who are sent home who are not 
immoral; tliey are sim])ly incorrigible. While the records may show 
they have been sent home, it would not necessarily indicate that they 
have been engaged in immorality. 

The Chairman. But is it not a fact that in a good many instances 
where they have in fact been sent home the records show that their 
time was up, or that they did not return, or something of that sort? 

Dr. Friedman. No; I think when they are sent home they are sent 
home on that basis, as a general thing. 

The Chairman. Do you know of any case in which the record was 
made to reflect some other cause ? 

Dr. Friedman. I do not have charge of those records, but the 
clerk who has charge of that knows the conditions, and I do not think 
he would 

The Chairman. Who is that ^ 

Dr. Friedman. Why, Mr. Me^rer. 

The Chairman. He is the clerk that keeps that ? 

Dr. Friedman. Yes. 

The Chairman. I suppose he has to get his information to make 
those entries from somebody ? He can not make the records u]) from 
his own knowledge ? 

Dr. Friedman. He gets the information from the disciplinarian. 

Senator Lane. Doesn't he get it from you? Aren't you responsi- 
ble for those records ? 

Dr. Friedman. Yes, sir; and wdienever there is a case of immorality 
he gets the information from me. 

(Here followed an informal discussion relating to morality in the 
school, which was not re])orted.) 

Dr. Friedman. Most of these cases of immorality which you sj)eak 
of happened under a ])revious matron — Miss Gaither. This is a 
specific case that I think will interest you. A woman there by the 
name of Miss Jennie Gaitlier, who came in under Maj. Mercer's admin- 
istration — she left a small school in Minnesota where she had less than 
100 girls, and wdiere she was ineflacient, and she was sent to Carlisle. 
When I came I saw very soon that she was not a good matron, that 
she was lax in discipline, and that she allowed the girls to do as they 
pleased. In fact, she was extremely careless and negligent. On one 
occasion all of the officers in her building came to my office and com- 
plained of the laxity of discipline on her building. I wrote to her 
about it. She is a woman with a sunny smile and troubles never 
bother her. I reported that woman every six months for four years 
and nothing was ever done. 

I finally told the office that a change had to be made; that 1 was 
responsible for those girls and boys, and that a change was funda- 


jiu'iital if the girls were to be jn-operi}' protected. There was a h(uirt- 
reiidiog investigation; everything was twisted upside down, and the 
result of it was that Miss Jennie Gaither was transferred and pro- 
moted to the ])Osition of matron of another large school, and from a 
salary of $800 to a salary of $840. She is now at Phoenix, and word 
comes to me from Phoenix^ — because I was em]:)loyed there — that she 
is absolutely helpless. 

The Chairman. Who made the " h(>artren(ling investigation" that 
3^ou spoke of ? 

Dr. Friedmax. I think it was Maj. McLaughlin. It was the kmd 
of investigation where there was a tremen(]ous amount of bitterness, 
and she and her sister wrote a lot of villifying letters, and wrote to 
Senators and Congressmen, and they stirred up that kind of stuff, and 
it was prolonged. They were sent there some weeks after the investi- 
gation was made. 

I sim])h" point that out to 3'ou to show that I have been watchful 
of these questions of discipline, and that they have been brought prop- 
erly to the attention of the office, but I have no power of removal of 
employees there. 

The Chairman. Did you see an article published in the Public 
Ledger, of Philadelphia, under date of January 28, 1914, under the 
heacling of "Gen. Pratt alleged to be seeking revenge on Moses 

Dr. Friedman. I saw it; yes. 

The Chairman. Do you know who wrote or inspired that article ? 

Dr. Friedman. I think there was a staff correspondent down from 
Philadelphia. They sent me a telegram, I believe, and wanted me to 
write something, and I never answered the telegram. 

The Chairman. Did you give them a statement ? 

Dr. Friedman. No; I gave them no statement. This man came 
down and spent a whole day and night in town looking around, and 
he was talking to people in town, and he came out to the school and 
spoke with me a few moments. I told him I could not enter into any 
discussion of this matter. 

The Chairman. Who was this man, this correspondent ? 

Dr. Friedman. I do not recall his name. 

The Chairman. Did you ever know him before ? 

Dr. Friedman. No. 

The Chairman. You sa}^ the article was written by him. Did you 
refer him to anyone ? 

Dr. Friedman. I referred him to no one. 

The Chairman. The article contains the following and other expres- 
sions: "Politics and revenge and ambition are behind the charges." 
Did you authorize^ — — 

Dr. Friedman. I authorized nothing \^dth reference to that 

The Chairman. The statement is also made: 

Carlisle accuses Geu. Pratt of having invented the charges made by the Indian 
Rights Association. The big citizens of the town say he is hiding behind the associa- 
tion, and that he is also using Congressman Arthur Rupley to pull Pratt chestnuts 
from the fire. It is Gen. Pratt's ambition to return as superintendent of the school. 

Do you know whether that is true or not? 

Dr. Friedman. 1 have heard it stated on a number of occasions. 
I heard it stated by a very prominent gentleman in Carlisle. 




The Chairmax. Who was it that you heard state it ? 

Dr. Friedmax. I would prefer not to 

The Chairmax. Why? 

Dr. Friedmax. Simph^ because I do not want to involve anyone in 
Carlisle in the matter. . 1 have heard it from three or four pet)ple. 

The Chairmax. Who were they? 

Dr. Friedmax. I would prefer not to give them. 

The Chairmax. I want to iind out what they know about it. 

Dr. Friedmax. One gentleman — John Hayes — ^told me on three or 
four occasions that he had been together with Gen. Pratt during the 
summer, and that Pratt said he expected to come back here at 
Carlisle as superintendent; that conditions now were such in the 
Indian Office that that could be done. 

The Chairmax. You have read that article that I have referred to ? 

Dr. Friedmax. I read it Thursda}'. 

The Chairmax". Is it or is it not a fact that much of the informa- 
tion contained in the article came from you or with your knowledge 
and consent ? 

Dr. Friedmax. No. The man came up there and had his stor}'' 
practically prepared. He came out there and saw me for a little 

The Chairmax. Did you see the stoiy ? 

Dr. Friedmax. I have seen it; j^es. 

The Chairmax. Did 3'ou see it when he came out there? 

Dr. Friedmax'. No; I saw it in the newspapers. 

The Chairmax. What do you mean ? 

Dr. Friedmax^. He told me that he had seen people in the town 
and talked with them. He told me at that time that in his judgment 
it was Pratt and Rupley. 

The Chairmax. Did you tell him what you thought about it? 

Dr. Friedmax. I told him I did not care to venture into a dis- 
cussion of it. 

The Ch.\irmax. Did he talk with the newspaper man who repre- 
sents the athletic association — Mr. Miller or Mr. Martin ? 

Dr. Friedmax. I would not be prepared to sa}' that: I do not 

The Chairmax. Did he tell you where he got his information? 

Dr. Friedmax. He said he had seen a great many of the men in 

The Chairmax. Did he tell you whom he had seen and talked with ? 

Dr. Friedmax. He did not tell me. 

The Chairmax. Did he ask you whetlier the information he had 
was authentic or untrue ? 

Dr. Friedma-V. He did not tell nie what ijiformatioj) he had, 
exce])t what he thought about Ruple}- and Pratt. 

The Chairmax. You expressed no opinion to him, and would not 
give him any information? 

Dr. Friedmax. I talked to him about general conditions, yes. 

The Chairmax. He was a staff correspondent of the Ledger, I 
beheve, but you did not know what his J:ame was? 

Dr. Friedmax. I do not know who he was. 

The Chairmax. He was sent down from Philadelphia, yon say? 

Dr. Friedmax. Yes. 


The Chairman. You have no knowledge whether there is any 
foundation in the statements in that article or not, yon say ? 

Dr. Friedman. I am frank to say, as I stated before, that I have 
heard it repeatedly stated fi*om different sources that Gen. Pratt 
made those statements. I know from personal knowledge that he 
has been in correspondence with Mr. Rupley.' Now, for instance 

The Chairman. What are the other sources of information? You 
mentioned Mr. Hayes. 

Dr. Friedman. Mr. Stauffer repeated it to me that he heard it 
from Mr. Denny, who was a close friend of Gen. Pratt's. 

The Chairman. Is there any one else you recall? 

Dr. Friedman. I think not. I heard it talked about in town, you 
understand. I would not care to mention any other names. 

The Chairman. I would like to have all the names. I do not 
know why you give some of them and withhold others. 

Dr. Friedman. Simply because I do not want to involve anybody 
in this controversy. I do not see that there is anytliing to come of it. 

The Chairman. We want full information about it, and I do not 
know any reason why you should give some names and not all of them. 

Dr. Friedman. You insist upon the name of that gentleman there, 
and I have no objection to mentioning Mr. Denny's name. 

The Chairman. Do you remember anybody else that communi- 
cated that information to you ? 

Dr. Friedman. I do not remember any specific names, no. I 
recall a gentleman spealdng to me about a visit Gen. Pratt made here 
last summer, and ariother gentleman from northerji New York spoke 
to me about 

The Chairman. Tell us the names of them as you go along. 

Dr. Friedman (continuing). About having a visit with Gen. Pratt 
in wliich Gen. Pratt was condemning the school. 

The Chairman. Who was it ? 

Dr. Friedman. Dr. Lake, up in New York. 

The Chairman. What was he doing here? What are his initials? 

Dr. Friedman. I do not know his initials. 

The Chairman. If Gen. Pratt is conspiring to v.Tongfully oust you 
fi'om your position here and is actually attacking the school, why do 
you not want to give us all the information you can ? 

Dr. Friedman. Simply because I feel that is a matter I wiU have 
to attend to myself. I feel that you gentlemen are not particularly 
interested in it. 

The Chairman. We are interested in it, of course. 

Dr. Friedman. I feel tliat that is a matter th; i concerns me and 
Gen. Pratt, and that — 

The Chairman. All right; we will see whether it concerns you 
and Gen. Pratt alone. You are a representative of the Government, 
as we are, and the Government has an in.terest in it. Did you know 
that charges had been filed against you for investigation, charging 
that you had inspired .that article and crused it to be published, and 
that the charges in the article are false and libelous? 

Dr. Friedman. I read some such sttitement in the i)a])er, and 
when I read it I said this, that if Gen. Pratt was sincere and had a 
grievance there was a better way than that of getting at it 

The Chairman. And wliat is "that ? 


Dr. Friedman (contiiuiiu|):) . Than l)y soiidiuo- charges to the Indian 
Office and piil)lishing them in a newspaper. That was to settle tliem 
in the courts. There is a shmder, and he is accusing me of slander, 
and the courts of Pennsylvania take notice of that. 

The Chairman. When one thinks he has more than one remedy, 
he chooses his own remedy, you know, usually ? 

Dr. Friedman. Yes: I knr-w. 

The Chairman. And you can not choose your antagonist's rem- 
edy ever}' time. 

Now, can you give the commission any further information tending 
to show that Gen. Pratt has been attacking the school or attempting 
to injure your reputation in connection with it, or cause you to be 
ousted from the superintendency of the school? Can you give the 
names of any other persons \\'h() liave communicated this information 
toj'ou from v\'hom we may get the information^ 

i>r. Friedman. It is a matter I have not given any thought to, 
and I could not give 3'ou any information at present.- 

The Chairman. You state under oath that you had no connection 
with the article ? 

Dr. Friedman. I state that. 

The Chairman. And had no responsibility for it? 

Dr. Friedman. No. 

The Chairman. You are a member of the executive committee 
or ])o.ird of director of the athletic association, are vou, Dr. Fried- 
man ? 

Dr. Friedman. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. That is a corporation, is it ? 

Dr. Friedman. Yes. 

The Chairman. Who are. the other members of the board? 

Dr. Friedman. Mr. Warner and Mr. Miller, and there is an advi- 
sory c )mmittee, composed of a number of gentlemen Walter Camp, 
Mr. McC rmick, of the University of Pittsburgh; James Sullivan, 
secretary and treasurer of the Amateur Athletic Union; Dr. Nol)le; 
and one or two other gentlemen. 

_ Tne Chairman. It "has the actual control of tlie athletic asso- 
ciation ? 

Dr. Friedman. The association is under the immediate jurisdiction 
of the executive committee. 

The Chairman. "V\1io are they? 

Dr. Friedman. I have given their names. 

Tne Chairman. Who controls the disbursement c^f that fund, tlie 
payment (;f exj.enditures ? 

Dr. Friedman. The executive committee. 

The Chairman. What individuals? 

Dr. Friedman. The entire executive committee. 

The Chairman. Do you have meetings w^henever an account is to 
be paid, and formally present that to the committee? 

Dr. Friedman. No; it does not go through the formality of a 
meeting, but there is an understanding. Everybody is consulted in 
the matter. 

The Chairman. As a matter of fact, when you present an account 
for expenses for a trip to Washington, you simply make out a state- 
ment, "Expenses to Washington," giving the date, and hand it to 


Mr. ^liller, the clork or treasurer, aiid he gives you ti clieck for it ; is 
that the way ? 

Dr. Friedman. Tlicre was a general understaoding when I came 
tliere tliat on trips of that kind they were to be handled that way. 
They had always been handled that way in the past. As a matter 
of fact under the former administration of the school tliat entire fund 
was handled personally by the superintendent, and he asked no one 
any questions regarding it. He handled it himself, and the recui-ds 
show it was handled in a ver}^ jiigh-handed fashion. 

TJie Chairman. What accounts are properly payable out of tJiat 
fund ? Is there any rule or principle ? 

Dr. Friedman. The account exists for the benefit of the school. 

The Chairman. It ought to be under the control of the school, as 
a matter of fact, ought it not? 

Dr. Friedman. I have no objection to it 

The Chairman. What do you think, as a matter of policy? 

Dr. Friedman.^ I do not see how you can take up the funds. I do 
not see how you can conduct an athletic association when you have 
to get bids and proposals on all these little supplies, and get author- 
ity for this and authority for the other. Your association wou.ld be 

The Chairman. You tliirik the red tape that would be required 
would so embarras;; the administration of tlie fimd that you could 
not accomplish anything ? 

Dr. Friedman. It would not embarrass it; it would hinder it, hin- 
der the proper conduct of business. 

The Chairman. Why is not that tru.e of the general business? 

Dr. Frie ^man. In the general business of the school you do not 
have to spend a certain sum of money at once. If you have to 
spend it you take it out of your pocket, and you are reimbursed. 
Here are a great many athletic supplies which do not permit of 
obtaining bids, and there are many trips that have to be taken by 
different teams, and sometimes the per diem expejises exceed the 
Government regulations. There are many conditions of that kind 
entering into it which worJd make it impossible for the association 
to exist if the funds were handled under the regulations of the Gov- 

The Chairman. Under what conditions do you charge your ex- 
penses to Washington and elsewhere to the athletic association ? 

Dr. Fhiedman. I have done i.t very seldom; when I go down on 
some matter of business for the school, or when I visit some institu- 
tion, or when I attend a game, I have occasionally paid expenses 
for }>trs. Friedman, in accordance with the custom that has been in tliere. On some occasions I have had the former superin- 
tendent of the school there as a guest of the association. 

I have a very meager salary of $2,650 a year, and I have to pay 
for my bond out of that. Formerly superintendents there had a 
salarv of more than double what I draw — their regular Army pay of 
$4,000 and $1,000 (xtra from the Interior Department", and in 
addition to that a certain sum of money provickd for entertaining. 
And I simply coidd Tiot go to thcs;^ games if I did not go in this way. 

The Chairman. I s;>e that l)y check No. .3508, dated October 24, 
191.3, a liotel bill at Noifolk wtis paid by you of $54.05. Have you 
any ri^ccdlcction of that item? 


Dr. FiUEDMAN. VVliy, \\s; Major ami Ali-s. Mercer wcrv tlicrc. 
As I recall it tlieii' expenses were included. 

The Chairman. How long were you there? Do you know (f 

Dr. Friedman. I do not know. Two or thre(> days. 

The Chairman. Was that a foothall game? 

Dr. Friedman. Yes. 

The Chairman. I see lure check No. 3139, November 15, 1012, 
(xpenses to Philadelphia, Pa., $69.20; theater tickets, $10; additional 
expense to Philadelphia, Pa., $22. I presume that v,as a footl-all 
trip, too ? 

Dr. Friedman. Yes. 

The Chairman. That expense, I suppose, embrac( tl youi- liotel bill ? 

Dr. Friedman. Yes. 

The Chairman. Also check No. 3138, November 14, 1912, 
to Washington, $75.65. What was that trip for? 

Dr. Friedman. I do not know whether it was a game or something 
in the mterest of the school. 1 do rot recall. 

The Chairman. When you went in the interest of the school, 
woulel you charge it to the expense of the athletic funel ? 

Dr. Friedman. V\liy, on several occasions I elid; yes. 

The Chairman. Why did you do that? 

Dr. Friedman. Vvhy, I was there in the mterest of the school, and 
that fund was th( re for that purpose. 

The Chairman. That is what the funel was for, is it ^ 

Dr. FiaEDMAN. The funel has ahvays beeji uscel for expd s;s of 
that kind. Gen. Pratt made a trip to Europe with Ids wife and 
family and friends, and spent $3,000. 

The Chairman. Out of tlie athletic fund? 

Dr. Friedman. Yes. 

The Chairman. Do you think that v/as proper? 

Dr. Friedman. No, I elo not think that was proper. That was 
purely a pleasure trip. 

The Chairman. What sort of busmess were you on hi WasMngton ? 

Dr. Friedman. Probably up at the department with rcferenci^ to 
school matters. 

The Chairman. I see here check No. 2848, January 27, 1912, 
expenses to Washuigton, $42.20. Also check No. 2929, April 9, 
1912, expenses $58.60. I suppose you have no way to refresli your 
memory. Do you know wliat that was for? 

Dr. Friedman. To where? 

The Chairman. It does not say. 

Dr. Friedman. I do not recall. 

The Chairman. I think the stub shows it was for some entertain- 
ment at your home. 

Dr. Friedman. Why, it was probably a student wedding. There 
are only two or three occasions when expenses of that kind have been 
incurred. This last year and for the past six years every commence- 
ment there is a tremendous amount of entertaining to be done, and 
a great many guests, and I have always elefrayed that out of ray salary. 
As a matter of fact, I have no money, gentlemen; I am a poor man. 
I have had to live up to my salary limit because of the tremendous 
expenses out there; and this year for the first time, after consulting 
with some of the people out there, the general expenses of the com- 
mencement entertainment were handeel in to the association. It was 


something like $100. That was a perfectly legitimate expense, and 
I ought to have collected it every year, but I have always been very 
timid about using those athletic funds, and I have used them very 
seldom. In fact, I have gone to three football games this last year, 
and I have paid for those expenses out of my pocket. I have done 
that repeatedly; I have paid for those entirely legitimate expenses 
out of my pocket. 

The Chaieman. I alwa^^s pay them out of my pocket. 

Dr. Friedman. But you are not connected. Senator, ^^^th an insti- 

The Chairman. I have been — well, we will pass that. Take check 
No. 2S00, July 26, 1911, expenses to Boston, $48. Do you know 
what that trip was for ? 

Dr. Friedman. I presume it was a game. I do not recall. 

The Chairman. Do they play football in July? 

Dr. Friedman. July? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Dr. Friedman. It must have been something else then. There are 
track meets and things of that kind. 

The Chairman. I wanted to see if you had any memory of it. 
You stated awhile ago that 3^ou had not made many trips at the ex- 
pense of this fund. There are a good many recorded — not a great 
many, but quite a number. I call your attention to check No. 2747, 
November 20, 1911, expenses to Philadelphia, S55. Was that a 
football trip ? 

Dr. Friedman. Yes. 

The Chairman. July 28, 1911, expenses to Washington, $17. Do 
you know what that was for ? 

Dr. Friedman. Department business. 

The Chairman. July 11, 1911, $22, expenses to New York. 

Dr. Friedman. I visited New York several times for the purpose 
of visiting schools up there. That is quite a distance back, and I 
could not recall it. 

The Chairman. That would probably be school business proper, 
do you think, and not athletic business ? 

Dr. Friedman. Wliy, the athletic fund is available for that pur- 

The Chairman. It seems to have been available for almost every 
purpose — newspaper correspondents, clipping bureaus, telegraphic 
returns from elections, commencement expenses, mileage books 

Dr. Friedman. I am exceedin^l}" sorry that you did not go back 
in the account and look into it in former years. You would have 
gotten some interesting information. 

The Chairman. I did not think you would be responsible for that 

Dr. Friedman. I think. Senator, you will fmd this fund has been 
legitimately used. 

The Chairman. Now, let us see. Under date of May 24, 1910, 
3'ou made a trip to Hnnipton: at, there is r. check of that date. 
What was that for? 

Dr. Friedman. Visiting Hanipton, I ])resume. 

The Chairman. I imagined it might have been that, but what 
were you doing there? Every time you took a trip you did not 
•cliarge it 'o t^ic athletic fund, did you? 


Dr. Friedman. On some occasions 1 diarized it to the General 
Go vernmeni uj c oiint . 

The Chairman. Do you remember a trip to Hampton^ 

Dr. Friedman. 1 do not recall it. 

The Chairman. Was not that at the time of the return of the 
fleet — what is that Hampton? Is that Hampton, Va.? 

Dr. Friedman. That is where that favorite school of Judge Ste- 
phens is. They call it an Indian school. 

The Chairman. What were you doing down there? Looking for 
points ? 

Dr. Friedman. 1 thought I mlglit pick up some ideas. 

The Chairman. Check No. 1633, October 28, 1909, expenses to 
Washington, S87; check No. 1534, September 4, 1909, expenses to 
Wasliington, S16; check No. IISI, January 30, 1909, expenses to 
Washington, §70.90. Have you any idea or an}^ way of telling for 
what purpose those trips were taken? 

Dr. Friedman. They v.'ere generally taken in the interest of the 
school and de})artment affairs. 

The Chairman. On any of these tri])s that you made to Wasliing- 
ton over the Cumberland Valley Raib-oad and tlie Pennsylvania liaU- 
road and back, did you use mileage books fia-nished you by the ath- 
letic association? 

Dr. Fried^ean. I may have done that. I have purchased my own 
mileage books, and used them from time to time for different pur- 
poses. I never noticed which books were used. 

The Chairman. On the occasions that you used mileage books 
furnished by the athletic association did you ever charge the ex- 
penses of tlie railroad fare also to the Government in your account as 
supermtendent ? 

Dr. Friedman. Whenever I travel on Government expense I use 
pei-sonal mileage; I may have had some one with me and used athletic 
mileage, but whenever I have chargetl up mileage to the Government 
I have used my own mileage. 

The Chairman. Then you have never on the same occasion used 
the athletic mileage book 

Dr. Friedman. I may have used mileage 

The Chairman. Of course, you know the records in the office show 
the number of the books, and the records of the railroads show the 
number of tlie books used. And they show that on certain occasions 
those mileage books were used, and your accounts in the ])ureau shcnv 
that on the same day and for the same trips you cluirged that as an 
item of expense to the Government. 

Dr. Friedman. That is entirely possible, that I used that mileage, 
and I may have used a mileage book of the association. I told you a 
moment ago I have had my own mileage books from time to time, 
and I have used my own mileage on several occasions. 

The CiiAiRMAX. Yes; but when you did use the athletic mileage 
books you shoidd not also charge the Government with the expense 
of it, should you ? 

Dr. Friedman. I do not recall any time that 1 have ever done that. 
Just as I say, I have had my own personal mileage from time to time, 
and I have had other persons traveling with me and on my own personal 

35601— PT 11—14^ 20 


The Chairman. Where do you buy your personal mileage books ? 

Dr. Friedman. In New York and Washington, on a number of 
occasions. I have got into New York sometimes on some matter and 
did not have enough mileage, and I have gotten mileage and I have 
used that mileage on a number of occasions. 

The Chairman. These mileage books are always numbered, are 
they not, so that the book that was actually used on a given trip can 
be shown in the record ? 

Dr. Friedman. I presume they can. 

The Chairman. Do you know what the state of the athletic fund 
account is ? 

Dr. Friedman. What do you mean by that? 

The Chairman. What are the assets to the credit of it ? 

Dr. Friedman. I do not know — $25,000 possibly, or something 
like that. I do not recall the exact figure; in fact, I do not keep close 
tab on it. 

The Chairman. What do you think is the remedy for the conditions 
that exist in the school that ought to be corrected ? 

Dr. Friedman. If 3^ou will just allow mo, here is a letter here with 
reference to this corporal punishment. It was written to Mr. Denny, 
March 18, 1913, after the complaint had been made by one of the boys 
about liis being severe in his punishment [reading] : 

March 18, 1913. 
Mr. Denny: 

I liaA^e your report of March 17 with reference to a communication received from 
William Bishop. \^niile no special credence is beinp; placed in the veracity of Bishop, 
whose record at this school was distinctly unfavorable and whose record since he left 
the school has been unsatisfactory, I deem it advisable to let you know definitely 
what the situation is with reference to punishment at this school. 

About five years ago, when I lirst came to Carlisle, I allowed it to be known at a 
faculty meeting that I was not in favor of corporal punishment; that other methods 
of punishment, such as confinement in the guard house, additional work and depriva- 
tion of town, drawing money, and social jirivileges, were more humane and more 
desirable, because more salutary. 

I want to place myself definitely on record with reference to this matter to the extent 
that under no circumstances is corporal punishment to be inflicted by you or any other 
employee of this school without first obtaining permission from the superintendent. 
I am frank to say that it will be a very difficult matter to obtain such permission, 
because 1 am not in favor of corporal punishment, believing that it is a relic of bar- 
barous age, which should be eliminated from every Indian school in the country. 
The mere fact that such punishment has been abandoned in penitentiaries and re- 
formatories indicates how imwise it is to permit its promiscuous use in this school. 
Very respectfully. 


Tlie Chairman. Before you answer the question that I submitted 
to 3"ou, you said that among the first things you took up when you 
went there wore the health conditions. What did you. iind in that 
regard. Dr. Friedman? What were the health conditions? 

Dr. Friediman. The health conditions were fair, but there were no 
such facihties as sleeping porches for tubercular students, and I 
immediately took that matter up and had some sleeping porches 
constructed on both sides of the hospital, and on the second story in 
the rear. I had the entire hospital equipped with the most sanitary 
equipment. I have put in a system of records of students so as to 
keep track of the various diseases. Careful efforts were made to 
segregate the tubercular patients and to send them home when they 
did not improve. I went further than that. There were a number of 


places around the _o;rouiuls that were insauitaiy. The (lining liall 
was in a very insanitar}' condition, and the dishes were not washed 
properly. I put in a dish-w^ashing machine there so that ])oiling water 
could be used. The Idtchen was improved and a new floor i)ut in, 
and the dining room was brightened up and made a better and 
cleaner place. 

I foinid the sanitar\ arrangeriients in the large boys' quarters were 
awfiil. I re]Dorted tliose re|)eatedly to the office, and iinalh we have 
r,bti,ined funds to put up a toilet ])inlding there, Vvith the jrorer toilet 
facilities, se]:)arate to^\'els, etc. The same action was taken in tlie 
dairy barn. When 1 first cajne to C^irlisle the dair-. ])?^,rn was in a had 
condttiun. The cows were dying fro 'i tuberculosis, and a new l)arn 
was \)vd iiy>. Some im|:rovements have been made in the girls' build- 
ing, and also some in tlie si •■all boys' cpiarters, altliough we have not 
had funtis enougli to go far enough for that. Tlierc was a verv bail 
flooding down })e;> end tlie school building, which wti,s a breeding ]:'lace 
for mos(|uitoes. It was a very, ver-. ])ad nasty place. I had that 
drained, and daring the last 'car thev raised $2,400 worth e-f vegeta 
bles on that one ]jlot. It was originaiis made as a j.lace for the school 
garden, but the princi])td teacher failed to send stiide.nts there foi" 
l:ia( instruction, and it was ])ut in the control of a ;Ietail of bo^s 
detailed under the llorist for histruction in gardening. It is a mo<iel 
truck garden, and a trej'.iendous nujuber >,i vegetables and other 
thhigs are raised there. In this last season the amount was $2,400 as 
I suggesteih Other places in the scho( 1 were drained .and mademore 

I also sent for a traclioma exp-ert from the Indian OITice, and he 
came and carefuliv looked into the trachoma situation among tl-e 
students, and effort^ vvere made to handde tliat h\ segregation and 
by |)roj)er treating. 

The Chairman. Did }ou iind nrnch trachoi^ia there? 

Dr. Friedman. I understood the expert to say on liis inve.')tiga- 
tion that he found a smaller j ere en t age there than at otlier ]-lj',ces in 
the service. 

The Chairman. Dr. x^iUeii stated todaiy that between 7(» imI 75 
])er cent of ail the pu-pUs m the school were affected. 

Dr. Friedman. 1 thmk he is ofi on that. 

The Chairman. Hovv ;\\\:c\\ tuberculosis is there? 

Dr. Friedman. There was an examinatjon made of the scliool 
just recentb.', un.4er the liirection of Dr. Di>.ou, head of the State 
^.ledical Boarvl of Pemls\I^ ania, one of the Nation's foremost authori- 
ties on that subject, audi he spoke of tiie iuedical conditions at the In- 
dian schocd with the highest ]>ossible praise, and said that the condi- 
tions were favorable. He compared the death rate (hiring jny ad- 
ministration of an average oi about four with the death rate in the 
early years of the scliool, which was as high as IS and 20. 

Th.e Chairman. Does thvA correctly state the death rate since you 
have been here. Doctor ? 

Dr. Friedman. Y(^s, about four. 

The Chahlman. What was the nund)er of (ieaths last year? 

Dr. Friedman. They were larg(»r last year than they wore bcuire. 
I think tlun'e were sLx or seven. 1 think there were six. 

Tl)e CiiAiRMAN. AVhat was that (hie to, if you know? 


Dr. Friedman. Something thut you can not tell. Sometimes these 
students get a hasty case of consumption. 

The Chairman. Do vou know how many died year before last; 
that Ls, 1912? 

Dr. Friedman. I can give you the records. The number of deaths 
in 1909 was 1; 1910, 3; 1911' 1; 1912, 1; 1913 to November ], 3. I 
think there were a total of about 6. In 1888, with about half the 
number of students, there were 21 deaths. In 1889 there were 18 
deaths. That is the way they ran back tiiere. 

The Chairman. J \\ant to ask }ou briefly about the vocational 
training at the school. Is that a feature of the school ? 

Dr. Friedman. It is. 

The Chairman. What vocational work is done there ? 

Dr. Friedman. We give instructions in about 20 trades and in 
agiiculture. I can t( 11 you about that. I am very much interested 
in the vocational training, and it has greatly improved durmg the 
time I have been there. When I fk-st came they had an agriculture 
instructor who was givmg instruction in chemistry, etc., in the school 
building, and he had general supervision of the farm, and was allow- 
ing the farm to grow" up in weeds. I felt that ought to be rectifird, 
and we made efforts to get a better agriculture -teacher, but the results 
were bad. We were allowed S2,000 a year for an agi-iculture teacher, 
and a man was obtained who was inexperienced. You can readily 
see the situation when you rem(>mber that m most institutions figri- 
culture teachers will get from $1,200 to $5,000 a year, generally nearer 
$4,000 a year. I felt that we could better rosults by having nature 
study taught in the schoolrooms under the teachers and liave them 
go out on the farm, visiting the farm in classes, and having them 
given gejieral instruction from the farmer, and also sending the boys 
out there under tlie regular conditions. 

The Chairman. Is tliat the reason tlie agriculture feature of the 
school was abandoned ? 

Dr. Friedman. The agriculture feature of the school has never 
been abandoned. 

The Chairman. Didn't you use to liave n man giving h^struction 
in it? 

Dr. Friedman. There is a man there. We have two instructors. 

The Chairman. They are called farmers. How many pupils were 
instructed in agriculture on tliose farms last year ? 

Dr. Friedman. If the people there in the school building were 
doing their duty, every studcrit in the building would visit the farms 

The Chairman. Do you know, as matter of fact, that both (^f tlie 
farmers were unable to get a sufficient elctrdl to work the small crops 
that they proeluced, and that the pupils that were actually sent on 
th(> farm wen^ sent there in tlie nature of a penalty? 

Dr. Friedman. If that was done, it was entirely without authority 
from mo. 

The Chairman. That would be a very bad system. 

Dr. F^riedman. C(>rtainly, it would be a bad system. 

The Chairman. Tliat is what the evidence shows, that the instruc- 
tion of it is nihil. 

vSenator Lane. If that condition (>xisted, woidd not you know it 
from persojial observation? 


Dr. Friedman. That was claimod by one of the men at one time, 
and I went after one of the jx ople in charge of the dormitory. 

Senator Lane. I know; but if it existed last year 

Dr. Feiedman. I think if it existed it woukl come to my knowkdge. 

Senator Lane. Woukl you not absolutely have to know it? 

Dr. Friedman. No; I would not. There are st vera] hundi-ed boys 
there, but only a small number of boys can be cktailed out there, 
because tiiey would simply b(> loafhig around douig nothuig. The 
disciplinarian is the man wlio makes out those details. The boys 
work where they are supposed to work. 

Senator Lane. So it might go on without your knowing about it? 

Dr. Friedman. It might, but not long, because the boys would 
complain about it. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether the same conditions prevail 
in the shoe shop, or similar conditions; and in the paint shop, the 
carpenter shop — that is, that boys are detailed there for a short time, 
and as soon as they begm to show proficiency they are taken out ? 

Dr. Friedman. I do not thuik that condition prevails. They may 
be taken out for a month on duty some place Avhere they are needed 
and where every boy on the grounds must take his turn. For instance, 
there is a certain numbi r of boys in the laundry and a c( rtain immbe-r 
in the kitchen. That is routine work. 

Senator Lane. I am >iot talkuig about that. We are talking 
about stone masonry 

The Chairman. Where the trades are taught? 

Dr. Friedman. They are kept in there, I believe, pretty regularly, 
unless a boy asks to be changed. 

The Chairman. If the condition did not prevail, would you know 

Dr. Friedman. I see the details. 

The Chairman. Take the tinner's statement. He states he had 
with hmi this year only two boys that were with hhn last year. 

Dr. Friedman. The boys may have gone home. 

The Chairman. Doubtless some of them did, but they did not all 

Dr. Friedman. And a great many students go out to the country, 
and a great many are likely to stay there for a whole year. 

The Chairman. Don't you think it a bad ])ohcy to send them on 
those outings when they are studyhig those trades, unless they are 
gohig to have an opi)ortunity to practice the trade? 

Dr. Friedman. It has been the policy for studeiits to go out on 
those outings, and it may break in occasionally on the trade work; 
but I tell you, Senator, I beheve that our trade histruction. is thor- 
oughly organized, and we are getting splendid results with the men 
we have. 

The Chairman. Those that are giving the instruction say they 
are aecomphshing nothing. I will say to you frankly that we have 
had every one of them. 

Dr. Friedman. Did you see Mr. Herr? 

The Chairman. Yes, sir. 

Dr. Friedman. And he was accomplishing nothing? 

The Chairman. He said that so many of the boys were taken 
away from him and ])laeed elsewhere that it was very unsatisfactory. 


Dr. Friedman. I thhik in the last few months there was complaint 
to Mr. McKean, aiid that complamt has not been met properly. I 
have had the industrial teachers in my ofHce, vSeiiator 

Senator Lane. Didn't you ^o out and look? 

Dr. Friedman. I go through the shops every day. 

Senator Lane. You ought to be able to tell. 

Dr. Friedman. As far as I can see, the boys are there. 

Senator Lane. If that condition went on and you could not see 
it — I went through there to-day myself, if you will pardon me, and 
I found that condition prevailing. I found the same information 
was volunteered to me. They are either detailed to something else, 
or go to the country. 

Dr. Friedman. They are detailed to lo to the country. 

Sejiator Lane. And they are accomplishing little or nothing hi 
that way. Thnt is the statement of all of them. 

Dr. Friedman. I want, with all due res])ect, to say that I have 
watched that training, probably many thousand boys. I have 
watched their careers after they have gone out. I have got 50 to 
100 of them places at their trades each year. 

Senator Lane. You have a tin shop there? 

Dr. Friedman. Yes. 

Senator Lane. What kind of tin do vou use? Is it X, XX, 

Dr. Friedman. I presume, all kinds. 

Senator Lane. You can not do that. 

Dr. Friedman. I nnght want to n'ako a heavy bucket. 

Senator Lane. Then over in your blacksmith shop — who is your 
best mechanic there ? Who is your best student in blacksmithing ? 

Dr. Friedman. They go through a course of exercises. 

Senator La-ne. What is he perfecting himself at now? General 
forging work? 

Dr. Friedman. They get a try at blacksmithing, wagonmaking 

Senator Lane. Blacksmithing? 

Dr. Friedman. The making of tires for wheels. 

Senator Lane. Have you noticed his progress lately in his work? 

Dr. Friedman. I have not been over there for some time, but pre- 
vious to Mr. Linnen's coming I have gone there every day, and have 
not missed a day. 

Senator Lane. Have you noticed the brick department, where thoy 
are laying brick ? 

Dr. Friedman. I do not know 

Senator Lane. And the plastering department. 

Dr. Friedman. They put this brickwork up, and they pull it do^^^l, 
and they use a very weak nioi'tar, so they do not ruin anything. 
They have a place erected there for plastering. They put it up, 
and when they are fairly proficient at it, if there is outside work to be 
done they are put at that. 

I Avill just give you an example. Senator. The boys did all the 
])lastering over the dining hall, every bit of it. They have done every 
i:)article of the mill work on nearly $200,000 worth of work on the 
])uih!ings there in the last six yeais. They have done every particle 
of painting there. This year was the first year we have hired paint- 
ers, and we liave 50 buildings. 

The Chairman. How does it hap]K'n you are hiring ])ainters? 


Dr. Friedman. We had a trcmendons job in the girls' building, 
and I did not want the boys there while the giils were there. Everv 
particle of painting work there is done by the students. The build- 
ings are repainted every two years, and pi'aotically all that is done by 
the students. 

Senator Lane. They should be dohig it. 

Dr. Friedman. Why, certainly. That shows tlu'v ar(> getting 
instructcMi. You can not say th(\v are not getting instruction when 
they are doing those things. 

Senator Lane. You said awhile ago that since ^Mr. Linnen had been 
u]-> here things had been u]>set. What did you n^ean by that ? 

Dr. Friedman. I want to be very frank 

Senator Lane. I^et n^e tell you soivething about that. I used to 
be superintendent of an institution myself, and we built buildings 
with insane people. 

Dr. Friedman. ¥/{^ have an expert mason there. Mr. Lamason 
is one of tlie weak iren over in that industrial department. The in- 
industrial departn^ents are generall}" n^anned by strong men. We 
have two men in the carpenter shop. Mr. Ilerr, the head carpenter, 
is a very active man. ^Ir. Gardner, when I came to Carlisle was 
<lra^^'ing the same salary that Uerr was and there was no one in charge 
of the shop. I felt that one of the men should take charge, and after 
observing their work for some time and making inquiries I selected 
Mr. Herr, and his salary was made $900 instead of $800. Mr. Gard- 
ner, of course, did not like that very much, and any testimony from 
Mr. Gardner will reflect that fact. 

Senator Lane. The tailor 

Dr. Friedman. The tailor is a fairly good man. We make the 
clothing for the school, but very few boys go out in tliat trade. We 
do not make civilian clothing. 

The Chairman. Does the tailor repair the clotliing for the small 
boys? What do you do with them? 

Dr. Friedman. A certain amount of tliat clothing is repaired in 
one of the sewing rooms, I think. You mean the outside clothing? 

The Chairman. T mean for the small children; yes. 

Dr. Friedman. I think all the outside clothing is repaired over at 
the tailor shop. The people at the quarters are supposed to send it 
over there. 

The Chairman. lie says it is not done there, and the lady in the 
sewing department says it is not done there. 

Dr. Friedman. They send it down — what is the matter ^\'ith the 
disciplinarian ? 

The Chairman. That is what we are trying to find out. 

Dr. Friedman. What is Mr. Denny doing with his clothing? 

Inspector Linnen. Selling it for old rags, thousands of dollars 
worth a year. 

Dr. Friedman. I did not finish what I was going to say about Mr. 
Linnen, gentlemen. i\Ir. Ijinnen came to Carlisle in an extremely 
critical and antagonistic mood. I came there a day or two after he 
was there, and he (Hd not come into my ofilce until I asked to see 
him — did not come near me. I have met Mr. linnen on a number of 
occasions, and he has liardly been polite. I met him one day some 
days ago on the outside of tlie oflice building, but he did not recognize 
me. llis attitude has been one of hostility, and it has been sliown 


towards the management of the scliool before botli the students and 
the employees. 

Senator Lane. Mr. Linnen lias not made these statements. They 
came from tlie employees. 

Tir. Friedman. I am making tliem now, sir. 1 am entitled at 
least to a fair deal. I have been investigated before, but I have never 
seen anything that has been done in the same high-handed manner 
that has characterized the conduct of Mr. Linnen since he has been at 
Carlisle, lie has objected to certain things that employees were 
doing, before the students — which is vicious, and any one that has 
had anything to do witli students know how quickly those things will 
travel. He has talked about the number of people he has gotten out 
of the service and seems to feel that that is a proper thing to discuss 
with the employees. His attitude toward the men wdio he found out 
the day after he got there were friendly to me has been one of 

I think you gentlemen sliould know tliat, and I intend to go on 

Representatwe Stephens. If there is nothing wrong he can not 
hurt you. 

J Jr. Friedman. What is the tendency of conduct like that? The 
students take these things up; employees take these things up. They 
are influenced by actions that begin on one side or the other. 

Inspector Linnen. You are under oath now. 

Dr. Friedman. I am under oath. 

Inspector Linnen. I desire to say that your statements are abso- 
lutely false, each and every one of them, tliat you have made here. 

I3r. Friedman. I contradict you iiere, and 1 can prove what I say. 
For instance, Mr. Linnen had picked up a paper with this account in 
it regarding this story of Pratt's, and he and Mr. Warner were going 
down in the car together 

Representative Carter. How do you know? 

Dr. Friedman. Mr. Warner told me. 

Representative Carter. You just heard it, Mr. Friedman? 

i)r. Friedman. I have personally observed these things. 

The Chairman. Ihat is not testimony, what somebody else told 
you. I have not objected to your repeating anything that you 
know, but what somebody comes and teiis you 

Dr. Friedman. Well, I have seen with my own eyes 

The Chairman. You can tell what you have seen mth your own 

Dr. Friedman. I think if you would examine these employees, 
gentlemen of this committee, you would find what I say would be 
borne out. I mention that because that sort (>f thing is of great 
importance. A thing like that in the Army would not be tolerated — 
a man coming around, making an inspection, criticizing employees 
before student-;, and finding fault with the emj)loyees before students. 

The Chairman. Hov/ is it you can not get along with any of your 
students and but few of your em]>loyees ? 

Dr. Friedman. Wiiy, that is no! true, if you arc making the asser- 
tion by asking the (juestion. 

The Chairman. What is the slate of feeling of ihv ])uj)ils toward 
vou ? 


Dr. Friedman. 1 tliiiik, at present 

The Chairman. I am not asking you what it was hist year. 

Dr. Friedman. At present, from the agitation of certain employees^ 
there is a feeling of unrest. 

The Chairman. What is the state of f( ehng of the em])h>yoes 
toward you, as a ruh^ ? 

Dr. Friedman. It has always been good. 

The Chairman. What is it now, do you know? 

Dr. Friedman. There has been a good deal of business going oii 
here in the last few weeks; a lot of statements made that I am going 
to be charged 

The Chairman. You know whether the relation^hij) is cordial or 
not. That is what I want to know. Are j^ou cm-dial toward them, 
and the}" toward you ? 

Dr. Friedman. My relations A\ith the employees have generally 
been indorsed by thiMii. 

The Chairman. How much did you have in the garden there last 
year ? How much area did you have in the garden ? 

Dr. Friedman. We had a little over 6 acres in the garden. 

The Chairman. You did not have a garden sufficient to supply 
the school with the necessary vegetables ? 

Dr. Friedman. In addition to that we had 20 acres in jiotatoes. 
We have been the last two years rai-ing enough potatoes. 

The Chairman. How much jjotatoes did 3'ou raise last vear ? 

Dr. Friedman. They raised 236 bushels on the first farm and 425 
on the second farm. Last year was not a very good year. 

The Chairman. That would make, all told, about 700 bushels. 
Do you think 700 bushels 

Dr. Friedman. Just a minute; excuse me a minute 

Senator Lane. Take this year; take it right there in that spot. 
You raised about 700 bushels of potatoes ? 

Dr. Friedman. Yes. 

Senator Lane. You raised really about 1,100 bushels. 

Dr. Friedman. I must have read the figures wrong. The farmer 
makes a report here. This is a report for the fiscal year 1913. 

Representative Carter. Seven hundred bushels would not be 
enough for the school, would it ? 

Dr. Friedman. No. 

The Chairman. That would be a little less than a bushel for each 
pupil, would it not? How much do you figure it would take? 

Dr. Friedman. They are not there a year. Senator. They are only 
there from September to April, and they eat a lot of bread. Regard- 
ing that food business, the students are on a ration. The Govern- 
ment furnishes a ration, and you can not exceed it. We have to 
account for the potatoes and everything we raise. 

Senator Lane. And they say you must not feed them more ? 

Dr. Friedman. No; you have to account for everything. Those 
are taken up on the accounts. 

In this connection I want to sa}^ to you, gentlemen, that 1 do not 
get any vegetables or any stuff from the farm. My predecessors did, 
but I continued it for a year or two, and every time there was any 
difficulty with an employee that was one of the charges brought 
against me, that 1 was eating Government food, and we get no 
vegetables or milk or butter at all. 


Inspector Lixnen. If the records show you do, then, they are 
false, are they ? 

Dr. Friedman. The records do not show we do. 

The Chairman. Have you examined the records? I will state 
this to 3^ou: I do not regard it as important, and did not intend to 
call attention to it, but I saw two old reports made by the former 
dair^^man, shomng a certain number of pounds of milk dehvered to 
you on different occasions. 

Dr. Friedman. There may have been some special occasion for 
delivering that milk for students' use. We have had half a dozen 
weddings in our house, and we have had 150 to 250 students there, 
and they have been looked after. 

The Chairman. Now, I want to ask you about the use of whisky 
among the bovs in the school. Do they use much whisky ? 

Dr. Friedman. I do not think they use anything like the amount 
of whisky that white boys do. 

The Chairman. Do you know how many boys were in the lockup 
last night, each one having been sent there for using whisky % 

Dr. Friedman. I understand there are some boys there. 

The Chairman. How many? 

Dr. Friedman. Something like six. 

The Chairman. I underst'and there were seven. 

Dr. Friedman. I did not understand they were charged with drink- 
ing \shi';ky. 

The Chairman. \Vliat were they in tliere for ? 

Dr. Friedman. I did not understand they were aU there for dnnk- 
ing whisky. 

Tlie Chairman. Wlnit for? 

Dr. Friedman. For difficulties in the grounds. 

Senator Dane. If a boy is in the lockup don't you go to see him ? 

Dr. Friedman. Yes, sir: ] go through the lockups. I generally go 
thiough the lockups once a week, whether tliere are students there 
or not. My interest in the lockup is shown by the fact that we had 
a miserable old guardhouse, and we put up that new lockup. 

Senator Lane. You have a nice, pretty lockup for them now? 

Dr. Friedman. It is a lockup; it is for that purr.ose, Senator. 

Senator Lane. Home like ? 

Dr. Friedman. Why, you don't punish these students ^\-ith cor- 
poral punishment. Wliat are you going to do mtli them? 

Senator Lane. I thought you being the superintendent it would 
be your duty, a kind of fatherly duty, to go down there and see what 
the 3"0ung lellov/ was in for. 

Dr. Friedman. I go down there. Senator, from time to time. 
Whenever there is a very severe case of discipline it generally comes 
to my attention. 

Senator Lane. Wliat arc your duties, general supervision ? 

Dr. Friedman. General supervision and keeping the conchtion of 
the plant in good shai)e; h)ol<ing after the finances, the purchase of 
supphes, the liandhng of al)Out $200,000 a yea-, supervision of the 
work in the industrial de])artments, general supervision of the aca- 
demic work, and geneial supervision of the liealth. 

Senator Lane. And keepuig u]) the moral tone of the students? 

Dr. Friedman. Yes, sir; I sjieak to the students continuously, and 
1 see the students in my office when tliey have any difficulties of their 


ov.n. I obtain em})lo3'ment for a great many of them on the outside. 
J write a great many letters to former students, encouraging them. 
I ^yrite from 6,0U0 to 7,000 letters a year to former students encour- 
aging them in right methods of living. 

Senator Lane. Do you check out through the quarters, down 
through cook house, and here and tliere and everywhere? 

Dr. Friedman. 1 am always around the grounds. I go through 
the quarters. 

Senator Lane. Do you examine the beds ? 

Dr. Friedman. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. What kind of mattresses are you using there ? 

Dr. Friedman. They are mattresses sent by the de})artment. Tliey 
are not very good. 

Senator Lane. Wliat are the}^ made of? Do 3^ou know? 

Dr. Friedman. 1 do not know what they are com})0;3ed of. 

Senator Lane. Did you ever cut one open ? 

Dr. Friedman. I do not know what the material is. 

Senator Lane. Did you ever lie on one ? 

Dr. Friedman. They not very good mattresses, Senator. They 
are purchased by the department for the Indaiii schools in the service, 
and they are sent there. 

Senator Lane. And you accept them ? 

Dr. Friedman. We can not help it. 

Senator Lane. Can't you ask for a different sort? 

Dr. Friedman. We have done that with a number of things. We 
are taking that matter up mtli regard to coal. 

Senator Lane. Let us hang on to the mattresses. When a mat- 
tress gets hard and so it is very uncomfortable, do 3-ou remake it and 
loosen it up ? Do you have a mattress shop ? 

Dr. Friedman. We have no mattress shop. 

Senator Lane. Do you work over your mattresses there ? 

Dr. Friedman. We have no upholstery department. 

Senator Lane. How long have they been there ? 

Dr. Friedman. Six years. 

Senator Lane. Well, if you staj^ there six years more they will be 
hard as rocks. 

Dr. Friedman. Thej are thrown out. Haven't you condemned a 
few ? 

Lispector Linnen. Some old double mattresses; not single mat- 

Dr. Friedman. That is the general method. It is not desirable 
to keep mattresses in the school there year after year. How are you 
going to clean them, Senator ? 

Senator Lane. If they arc hair mattresses it is easy to steam them. 

Dr. Friedman. How are we gomg to steam them We have no 
steaming apparatus. 

Senator Lane. Well, there are the hair dealers. 

Dr. Friedman. The general feeling is, I thought, that when those 
mattresses have been worn out a little bit they are to be replaced. 
I am very thankful for that suggestion. Th"^at stuff is in there, 

Senator Lane. And they stay there until they are condemned? 

Dr. Friedman. I'ntil they are cond<^mned. 

Senator IjANE. And you never cut one ()])en? 


Dr. Friedman. I have seen what was inside of them, but I do not 
recall. We get all our supplies from the department. We formerly 
purchased a good many of them, and we could select the material 
with a great deal more care. For instance, our coal— we have always 
purchased coal, and we have gotten good coal. This year the depart- 
ment insisted upon the coal bcmg purchased away, and we have a 
tremendous amount of coal there and it has not given satisfaction. 
A great deal of our supplies in the way of dried fruit and other food 
su])])lies are just beginnuig to come m, m the last month or six weeks — 
half of the year gone by — breakfast food, for mstance. We have 
sent letters and telegrams, and the suppUes are just commg in, and 
half the year is gone. The students are there, and we have had to 
substitute somethhig else. 

The Chairman. I want to ask you about a boy who used to be a 
pupil by the name of Yuda. Do you remember him ? 

Dr. 1 RiEDMAN. Yes, I remember him very distinctly. He is more 
negro than Indian. 

The Chairman. He was a pupil there under you, was he ? 
Dr. Friedman. He was a pupil there, and the question came up 
with reference to his graduation last year, and he was finally allowed 
to graduate because Mr. Whitwell strongly urged it against my own 
better judgment and the better judgment of the senior teachers. 
The Chairman. How did the question arise? 
Dr. Friedman. He is a boy that is a very shrewd fellow. He had 
been a janitor there in the school building. He had not been paying 
much attention to his studies. He took advantage of his teachers, 

and Mrs. Foster did not feel 

The Chairman. It was a question whether he had mastered his 
work sufnciently ? 

Dr. Friedman. Yes. He v/as a janitor down in the school building, 
and he had been in difficulty with boys — taking boys down tovrn. It 
was claimed he had taken boys to bad houses there, and helped them 
to get hquor. When he left there I furnished him transportation to 
his home, and instead of staying there he came back, and he has been 
a source of annoyance and trouble to the school ever since. He has 
opened up a httle restaurant near the school there, encouraging the 
boys in all kinds of evil business. 

The Chairman. He was employed down there one time by a man 
engaged in the ice cream business l 

Dr. Friedman. Yes; I did everything I possibly could to get him 
out of town. I told the man the kind of influence he was ha-\ang on 
the students, and asked him to let Mm out, because Yuda had prom- 
ised me when the transportation was furnished him to his home that 
he would stay there. You can see the situation with all these In- 
dian boys iiround the town — our girls going d( wn town every other 

The Chairman. He is a kind of agitator any way, isn't he? 
Dr. Friedman. Oh, he is a bird. I have seen a great many bo3^s — 
I don't know whether it is darky blood or not, but he is one of the 
shrewdest young chaps I have seen. He got the best of me on that; 
I did not get him out of town. I have recently been trying to find 
out w hether he has been disposing of hquor to boys, and I had a watch 
])laced oil his store, and tlie man that was watching said he saw boys 


coming cnit \vith Ixittlod liquor, but could not prove they got it in 

Representative Stephens. Y\as there a young man that was a 
telegrapher that you also ordered to leave the town ? 

Dr. Feiedman. I do not recall any boy that was a telegrapher. 
There was a boy down town who was married and gettino- alonf 
nicely. I did not interfere vrith him. '^ ^ 

Representative Stephens. When (hd you abolish that department 
of telegraph}' ? 

Dr. Fried^ian. This year, for this reason 

Representative Stephens. You still give it in your catalo^'-ue 
don't 3'ou ? ^ J ^ ; 

Dr. Friedman. We do not ]>rint the catalogue every year. 

Representative Stephens. Wasn't it abolished last year ^ 

Dr. Friedman. No; it was abolished at the end of last year, and we 
have not printed a catalogue for more than a year. 

Representative Stephens. You have no photography department 
here ? 

Dr. Friedman. No photography. 

Representative Stephens. You have a building? 

Dr. Friedman. That building was put up before I came, and was 
for art work and photography. There were no facilities for teaching 
photography, and it was being used more or less as a loafing place, 
and my plans are to remodel the building and use it for teaching the 
girls cooking. 

Representative Stephens. You eliminated also Indian art? 

Dr. Friedman. That was done bv direction of the department — the 
Indian Office. 

Representative Stephens. Since when was that order issued ? 

Dr. Friedman. Some years ago they asked me about the abolish- 
ment of the two positions occupied by Mr. and Mrs. Dietz. I told 
them I thought they were an asset to the school and I did not think 
the positions ought to be al)olished. 

Rei)resentative Stephens. How about the harness dei)artment? 

Dr. Friedman. The harness department was abolished for this 
reason: Harness is not now made by hand: it is generallv made by 
machinery. They had Ix^en having 30 or 40 boys there; the harness 
was cut out for them, and they were sewing up harness, and when I 
looked mlo their future careers they were not following u]) the harness, 
trade. So that was coml)ined with the shoemaking. 

Representative Stephens. Don't your catalogue show also that 
you have a horticultural department ? 

Dr. Friedman. Well, that has reference to the florist's work and 
work of that character. 

_ Representative Stephens. Is there anything of that kind tauo-ht 
m this school ? . ^ t> 

Dr. Imjiedman. We have a greenhouse. We have a man who is a 
German and a very competent man. 

Reprc^sentative Carter. He is a gardener, too, is he not ? 

Dr. Friedman. He is a gardener, too. In this greenhouse they 
start these cabbage plants and various plants for the garden during 
the sj^rmg months, and then thev set them out when the pr(»i)(T time 


About the catalogue, Congressman, we have no facilities for printing 
a new catalogue every year, and the last one that was printed was 
some time in 1911. 

Ilepresentative Stephens. But your report shows you have a de- 
partment of telegrai^h}- there. • 

Dr. Friedman. The telegraph department was abolished the be- 
ginning of this 3^ear, or the latter part of last year, and for tliis reason: 
There was no way of keeping tab on the boys. The man who was 
giving instruction in telegraphy was employed most of the time in 
the office, and he was not giving any supervision to the boys. So it 
was found best, on account of the small number of boys taking up that 
work, to abolish it. 

The Chairman. Do you know how many liogs have boon sold from 
the farm during this year 1 

Dr. Friedman. I could not tell jou tlie exact figures. There has 
been a recent sale of a number of them. I presume from $1,000 to 
S2,000 worth of hogs have been sold each year. 

The Chairman. Do jou know how many have been consumed by 
the school ? 

Dr. Friedman. A good many of them. And I spoke to the quarter- 
master about killing the hogs, and he said that on a previous occasion 
th(\y killed a good many of those hogs and fed the stu(U>nts this meat 
and there was a breaking out of some skin disease. 

The Chairman. He was afraid to feed them pork ? 

Dr. Friedman. Ye-;; that is, too much. 

The Chairman. As a matter c^f fact, there have hevn enly seven 
liogs killed there this year for the use of the students ? 

Dr. Friedman. The records will show. 

Senator Lane. But you would not have to kill thiMVi all at one 
time ? 

Dr. Friedman. No. 

The Chairman. vYhy would it not l)e a good ]dan f 

Dr. Friedman. That is his. idea. Mr. Kensler has been in the 
work for year-;. He is a very competent man, and takes a personal 
interest in the students. Why, gentlemen, to look at those students — 
you hear so much about this food — look those students over. Do 
they look like they are starved ? Do they look like they are not 
taken care of? 

I want to tell you about this food. Since thi- food business has 
been started — why, they kicked about the food there in the club 
where the empl(;yees have their own club. I was at <me of the biggest 
hotels in the country not long ago and a bunch of four men sitting 
at the table next to me said, "The food is rotten." Just the other 
day one of the students complained about there not being aii}^ food on 
the table. The dining-room matron, recollecting some of this agita- 
tion, went up and said, "I know there was meat on this table, because 
I saw it put on there, and if you girls don't find that, I am going to send- 
for the matron." And they got down under the table and dug 
it out. 

The Chairman. Of course, each pujul should be provided wdth a 
cii]) and knife and fork and the necessary utensils. Did 3^ou know 
there were many instances there of two or more juipils using the 
same uten.-ils and quarreling about it? 

Dr. Friedman. 1 pr(>sn!ne that hns hvon v(M-y current just recently. 


Thc: Chairman. When anyone goes into the <huiii^- i-.-oni and sees 
those things and knows that the table is not supplied, it is not (piite 
an answer to say that those things have been very current (Juite 

Dr. Friedman. 1 will tell you what the matron t'-'ld n\v. She 
-:dd it was a very difficult .matter to keep knives and f:;rk^ (Mi those 
iables. The students take them to their rooms. In one room she 
found a large number of knives and forks stuck away in the corner, 
and napkin, that had been taken out. We are supplied with :> cer- 
tain amount of that material. 

The Chairman. Of course, some of them get lost and broktMi, l)ut 
v.hen a man sits dov/n to a table under ordinary condition-; he ought 
to have a knife and fork and spoon. 

Dr. Friedman. I am sorry I have not spoken to the matron about 
that. Mr. Ridentmr reports to me that students have l)een taking a 
lot of th'vse things away ..ince this matter came up. I havc^ been 
thn ugh the dining hall myself. I have had the doctor go over there 
and eat his meals over there, and I have had a meal over there. 

Senator Lane. Do you go regularly and inspect the meals ? 

Dr. Friedman. There is hardly a dav I do not go over there. 

Senator Lane. At mealtime ? 

Dr. Friedman. Sometimes when they are eating. 

Senator Lane. To inspect the food ? 

Dr. Friedman. Yes. 

Senator Lane. And the rations that are issued ? 

Dr. Friedman. I get a report every morning as to the amount of 
food issued to the students, just what the amount was in the morning, 
afternoon, or evening, and the amounts of food that have been used 
each day. We can not exceed that allowance. I have exceeded the 
allowance of bread the last two quarters, and an exception will be 
made to my accounts, and I will be responsible. 

The Chairman. When were you last in the dining room and had a 
meal there ? 

Dr. Friedman. It has been some time ago; I could not tell you. 

The Chairman. Now, how lon^ ago ? You said three or four times, • 

Dr. Friedman. It has been witliin the last year or two. 

The Chairman. Is that as definite as you can make a statement ? 

Dr. Friedman. I do not eat veiy many meals over there, I am frank 
to tell you. There is no necessity for that. I go over there right 
along- go over there to that dining hall. 

To show you my interest in the work in that department, several 
years ago when there was a change in the cook there, we had a lady 
cook who was not a very good cook. I took the matter up especially 
with the department and asked them to increase the salary of cooks 
so that we could get a good man, and we have gotten a man since that 

The Chairman. What are the sanitary conditions in and around 
the bakery ? 

_ Dr. Friedman. Generally they are pretty good. I have a badly 
situated bakery. It is down in the basement, antl the contUtions of 
light are not entirely suitable. The onlv complaint I have had to 
make about the bakery is that it is situated there under that ])orch, 
and there is a lot of that dirt flying in under that porch, jind fiv- 


quently I havo had to speak to the baker about having old clothing 
hanging around. 

The Chairman. All right, Doctor. We are very much obliged to 


(Thereupon, at 1 o'clock a. m., Sunday, February 8, 1914, the com- 
mission stood adjourned.) 

sunday, february 8, 1914. 

Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs, 

Carlisle, Pa. 

The commission met at 9.40 o'clock a. m. 

Present: Senators Robinson (chairman) and Lane; Representa- 
tives Stephens and Carter. 


The witness was duly sworn by Senator Lane. 

Sanator Lane. What do you do ? 

Miss Burns. I am a teacher. 

Senator Lane. At Carlisle ? 

Miss Burns. At Carlisle. 

Senator Lane. What do you know about conditions there ? How 
long have you been there ? 

Miss Burns. I have been there two years and five months. 

Senator Lane. In what department ? 

Miss Burns. I have been teaching ever since I came. 

Senator Lane. I know, but 

Miss Burns. The academic department. 

Senator Lane. What type of students do you have? Are they 
young students or older girls ? 

Miss Burns. The grade, you know, makes no difference in the age 
■ of the students. 

Senator Lane. What grade is it? 

Miss Burns. The beginning of the fourth grade. Some of my stu- 
dents are young and some are old. 

Senator' Lane. Where were you employed before 3^ou went to that 
school ? 

Miss Burns. As a public-school teacher in West Pittston. I taught 
public schools 12 years before I was employed in the Indian Stnwice. 

Senator Lane. 'Wliat are the conditions out there in the way of 
advancement of pupils ? Are they bright, or how is that ? 

Miss Burns. Mainlv the children are bright. As far as the advance- 
ment of their work is "concerned I would say that they compare verv 
favorably with the public school. In public school I taught the fifth 
grade, first primary, and the third, and these children seem to me to 
be just about on apar with the ])ublic scliools of this city. 

Senator Lane. About the average of children elsewhere ? 

Miss Burns. Yes, sir; they impress me as being very little different 
from white children. 

Senator Lane. Have you been around through the administrative 
part of the institution ? 


Miss Burns. During my vacation I worked in the ofHco one sum- 
mer, and I have worked in the dining room as dining-room matron. 
Senator Lane. Hosv long ago was" that? 

Miss Burns. Last sumuKn- 1 worked as dining-room matron. The 
summer before that I worked as dining-room matron for three or four 
w^eeks and then went in the office for the rest of the summer. I have 
also worked in the printing shop in the summer time. 

Senator Lane. Now, then, you are pretty tolerably familiar with 
conditions there, you think, do you ? 

Miss Burns. Well, I am familiar with those that have come under 
my immediate notice. 

Senator Lane. What is your opinion about the school? Is it in 
good condition, everything going along harmoniousl}^ to the benefit of 
the Indians and in the manner it should? 

Miss Burns. That is rather a broad question. 

Senator Lane. Well, in a general way. Does it seem to be pros- 
perous and doing its full duty by the Indians as wards of the Govern- 
ment ? Is everything harmonious out there between the teachers and 
the pupils — the administration and the pupils? 

Miss Burns. I have never discovered any tiling mharmonious 
between the teachers and pupils. 

Senator Lane. Well, say between the superintendent and the 
pupils. Are they at peace? 

Miss Burns. As far as I know, they are. 

Senator Lane. Everytliing, then, is all right? 

Miss Burns. Everything that has come under my personal obser- 
vation has been pleasant and agreeable. 

Senator Lane. WTiat do you know about the institution which we 
ought to know, representing the Government, in an attempt to have 
it managed proj^erly, that would be of use to us ? 

Miss Burns. I tell you, I can answer definite questions better than 
that. I am perfectly walling to answer any question you ask me, 
but I do not know that I know exactly how to answer anytliing as 
broad as that. 

Senator Lane. You are in the academic department, and I guess w^e 
have made no investigation of that at all. 

Miss Burns. That is the department I know more about. 

Senator Lane, llien we will take up that line. We did not have 
an opportunity, as you know — we came late Friday, and I guess 
school will not begin again until Monday morning. The children, 
you tliink, are advancing to about the same extent the}^ would in 
public schools ? 

Miss Burns. Generally speaking. Of course, some students are 
more industrious than others. 

Senator Lane. And they are receiving the instruction that is given 
to the children of ordinary private citizens at public school, are 

Miss Burns. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. What line of work do you use ? The course that is 
used in the pubHc schools ? 

Miss Burns. We have our course of study that they have developed 
for us, and in addition we are trying to follow the orders that come 
from Washington, and try to adapt om-sclves as far as j)ossible to 
35601— FT 11—14 21 


the State course of study. As I know it, that State course of study 
is very excellent and could scarcely be improved upon. 

Senator Lane. How many children do you have under your care ? 

Miss Burns. Forty-nine. 

Senator Lane. Is that enough or too many? 

Miss Burns. That is quite enough. Forty-nine, perhaps, would 
make an ideal school. 

Senator Lane. Are you able to do justice to that man}^? 

Miss Burns. I think so. 

Senator Lane. Do you have much individual work to do vnth 
them ? 

Miss Burns. Just as any school-teacher would have. 

Senator Lane. Individual work is that which counts the most, is 
it not? 

Miss Burns. It certainly is. 

Senator Lane. And can a person properly attend to 49, giving 
them individual attention, even in the public school or anywhere 
else? Do you think they can? 

Miss Burns. I think 40 is considered the ideal school. 

Representative Stephens. Who is the immediate principal of 
your department of the school. 

Miss Burns. Mr. Whit well. 

Representative Stephens. Have you been under him during the 
two and a half years you have been in the school ? 

Miss Burns. I have. 

Representative vStephens. Do you know the conditions existing 
between nim and the teachers under him? Is it harmonious? 

Miss Burns. It has impressed me that there are really two sets of 
conditions in the academic building. 

Representative Stephens. What do you mean by that? 

Miss Burns. I mean there are some teachers who seem to be very 
friendly with Mr. Whitwell, and who seem to consider that his word 
is law, and there are others who do not seem to receive the same 
amount of consideration. 

Representative Stephens. Then do these people appeal to the 
superintendent of the school over Dr. Friedman — the ones chat do 
not give Mr. Whitwell consideration? 

Miss Burns. I think I am misunderstood. I meant Mr. Whitwell 
did not give them consideration. I do not know of any teacher who 
has appealed to Dr. Friedman except after she has appealed to Mr. 
Whitwell. I never appealed to Dr. Friedman personally except 
once, and I had already appealed to Mr. Whitwell personally in the 
teachers' meeting, and I thought it my duty to appeal to Mr. Dr. 

Re])resentative Stephens. Over Mr. Whitwell ? 

Miss Burns. Yes. 

Representative Stephens. How long ago was that ? 

Miss Burns. That was this fall, when we instituted the "study 
hour," and I was appointed to take the girls from the school building 
to the girls' quarters at 8 o'clock eacl) evening, and I found in taking 
these companies of girls over there that the girls were very willing 
and obedient and very easily managed. The officers took charge of 
them in the halls and were willing to really assume the charge of them 
on the way from the academic building to the girls' quarters. But I 





discovered that there were two girls going alone from the school 
building to the hospital each evening. I reported it the first evenint' 
and Mr. Whitwell told me he would look into it. I went back the 
next day, because I thought it was a matter that could not stand 
even an hour, and Mr. Whitwell said lie could not afford to bother 
with the hospital. 

The next night the two girls went over alone, and there was one 
boy went. So I went for tlie boy^I called an officer from Mr. Whit- 
well s office, and I sent an officer for tlie boy, who proved to be the 
janitor of the hospital, and held him there until the girls had time 
to go. The next morning I spoke to Mr. Whitwell about it agam 
and told him I would speak to Dr. Friedman about it, and I did so 
and the matter was attended to immediately. ' 

Representative Stephens. And that engendered some feeling 
between you and Mr. Wliitwell, did it? ^ 

Miss Burns. No; none whatever. 

Representative Stephens. What did Dr. Friedman do then in 
regard to the matter? 

Miss Burns. When I spoke to him that morning he asked me 
whether I had spoken to my own superior officer about it. I told him 
that I had, and also that I was going to speak to Mr. Friedman about 
It, and that Mr. Whitwell seemed to think that he had no authority in 
the matter. Mr. Friedman told me he would attend to it imme- 
diately, and while I was there he sent an orderly to call the matron to 
the office I am not positive, but I think the girls were told to do 
their studying m the hospital in charge of the nurse instead of comino- 
to the study hour. As far as I know, that is the only exception that 
has ever been made. 

Representative Stephens. Do you know anything about the state 
of feeling between Mr. Whitwell and Mr. Friedman at the present 
time ? '■ 

Miss Burns. I know very httle from direct observation. Of course, 
it IS a matter of common gossip, which one does not want to swear to' 
that the feeling is not pleasant between them. I have heard Mr! 
V\ hitwell make derogatory remarks and shrug his shoulders and smile 
in a sort of way in his own office when Mr. Friedman was mentioned 
or some order received or something of that sort. 

Representative Stephens. What is the state of feeling, then, be- 
tween the body of students and Mr. Friedman, the superintendent « 
Is it good or bad ? 

Miss Burns. That I know very little about from personal observa- 

Representative Stephens. Those under you, you know. 

Miss Burns. Those under me I know to a certain extent. I have 
made it a rule to teach my students the subjects I am required to 
teach them, and to tell them I am their friend, and to help them. 
Aside from that I should never encourage them in gossiping to me. 
1 do know, however, that last week one of iAie boys told me ho felt Mr. 
J^riedman had not given him a square deal. When I pressed him for 
an answer he seemed to be lacking an answer. I don't know why. I 
asked him if it was something directly personal with him, and he said 
It was not. 1 never have encouraged the children to gossip to me 
about conditions on the campus. 


Representative Stephens. Then, thej do not respect the superin- 
tendent as they should — the students ? 

Miss Burns. No; I do not think they do. 

Representative Stephens. Do you think this young man was right 
in speaking of the superintendent so ? 

Miss Burns. No; I do not. 

Representative Stephens. How many others joined him in 
making such statements ? 

Miss Burns. None, to my knowledge. 

Representative Stephens. Is he the only one you have heard com- 
plain of the school ? 

Miss Burns. The only one coming directly to me. 

Representative Stephens. Do you hear any complaints about 
what they have to eat, or whether they have enough ? 

Miss Burns. No; I do not know that I hear anything that I could 
call direct evidence. Of course, I have often heard children say that 
their "grub" was not good, or something along that line. They told 
me they had fish last Friday morning that made them sick. 

Representative Stephens. Did you ever hear complaints about 
their not getting enough bread ? 

Miss Burns. Well, that is a common complaint. As I told you, I 
worked in the dining room, and it was my duty as dining-room 
matron to see that supplies were made to last and to take care of 
them, and in order to do that I insisted upon it that the bread should 
be eaten— that the bread that was cut should be eaten before more 
was placed upon the tables. I was there in the summer time, but in 
the summer time the meals are really very good, because we have 
garden vegetables. 

Senator Lane. Do you have as many students ? 

Miss Burns. Not as many; no, sir. 

Senator Lane. Do you have plenty of furnishings for the table in 
the way of knives, forks, spoons, etc. ? 

Miss Burns. When I was there we were short on spoons, and I 
reported that and received 1 dozen. I was told that when the 
regular dining-room matron came back she would find the spoons. 

Senator Lane. You were short of spoons enough to set the table 
properly ? 

Miss Burns. Yes. Of course, the attendance was not as large as 
during the year. 

Senator Lane. How many would there be there? 

Miss Burns. I have forgotten the exact number, but it would per- 
haps be anywhere from 100 to 150. I was there when the country 
party came back, and we had 50. When the dining-room matron 
went on her vacation she put away the surplus silverware and left 
enough for all that might be there; but the dining-room girls — helpers 
we call them — told me the girls had carried spoons to the quarters and 
had not brought them back, and that I found was true. 

Senator Lane. If they would carry them away and never return 
them, what would you do ? Go without spoons '( 

Miss Burns. That is a condition I never met. I hardly believe so, 

Senator Lane. Was the food supply ample, you say, and good? 
Miss Burns. Very good in the summer time. We have the garden 
vegetables, and their meat supply was good. There was one day 



,that the large boys complained that the meat was sHghtly decomposed, 
and I spoke to the cook about it antl told him to hold that meat. The 
quartermaster came and looked at it and returned the entire con- 
signment to the butcher. From that time until I left the meat supply 
was all right. 

I would like to say that I do not like you to think that there is any 

?ersonal feeling between me and ]Mr. Whitwell, because the matter 
spoke of was a business matter pure and simple, and I conducted 
it as such and have regarded it as such ever since. 


The witness was duly sworn by Senator Lane. 

Senator Lane. How long have you been connected with the 
Carlisle school ? 

Miss Reichel. I came in August, 1907 ; almost six and a half years. 
I taught two years in the public schools in the northwestern part of 

Senator Lane. What do you know about the institution ? 

Miss Reichel. Well, I think I know quite a good deal; but I would 
rather you would ask me questions first, and if there is anything that 
you have not thought of 

Senator Lane. Are you under the suj>ervision of Mr. Whitwell? 

Miss Reichel. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. What grade do you teach? 

Miss Reichel. I teach the four upper grades in history, civics, and 
spelling, and I have special charge of the freshman class in room IL 

Senator Lane. How do you find the students, comparing the 
Indians w4th the whites ? 

Miss Reichel. I think it is scarcely a fair comparison, because some 
of the Indian students have not always spoken English. I think as 
far as mental abilities are concerned they are about the same. 

Senator Lane. ^Ir. WTiitwell and you get along nicely, do you ? 

Miss Reichel. We always have. 

Senator Lane. You have respect for him as a teacher? 

Miss Reichel. As a man. 

Senator Lane. Do you fail to respect him as a teacher? 

Miss Reichel, Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. For what reason ? 

Miss Reichel. Well, I have a number of specific reasons that have 
come under my own notice — and this is nothing personal. There is no 
personal feeling. 

Senator Lane. I want to ask you before you go further, is it in 
relation to his ability as a teacher^ 

Miss Reichel. His work in general. In the first place I do not 
think, Senator Lane, that Mr. Whitwidl is loyal to the superintendent. 
The reason I say that is because in public assemblies, such as the 
chapel exercises, he has said things that could not be considered as 
anything except as disloyal to the superintendent. The teachers 
could notice it and the students could notice it. I do not think it is 
right for an employee to criticize any other employee in the presence 
of the students, lie has also made disloyal remarks in the teachei-s' 
meetings, when the teachers were all assembled. I do not know — 
I can not swear 

Senator Lane. "WHiat did he sav? 


. Miss Reichel. Things being carried over his head, and not havings 
any say about this sort of thing. I think it is largely because he has 
not asserted himself as principal teacher in his school. I think Dr. 
Friedman has been very just. I can not say he has made disloyal 
remarks to the students personally, but this I do know, that the 
attitude of students who go into that office changes in an indefinable 
way. There is a difference in their feeling toward Dr. Friedman. 
So far as you can feel it, there is a subtle influence 

Senator Lane. Do you think he says something or does something 
that prejudices them against him? 

Miss Reichel. I think so. Here is another thing. There are 
cases of boys — I can mention five boys who have worked in Mr. 
Wliitwell's office as janitors who did not have enough to do to keep 
them busy — and these boys have practically gone out of Carlisle dis- 
graced — those who did go — not because he had a bad influence, but 
simply because they did not have anything to do. You know this, 
that idleness will breed almost anything. These boys were Montre- 
ville Yuda, for one; Benedict Cloud, for another; Joseph Loudbear, 
for another. The teachers, one after another, put in protests against 
keeping that boy in the office. Augustine Knox is another. Louis 
Schweigman is another. Those are definite instances of boj^s who 
certainly have not gained by staying in there. 

Senator Lane. Were they good boys before they went in there ? 

Miss Reiciiel. So far as I know, Joseph Loudbear has never borne 
a good reputation, and he should never have been put in the school 
building w^here the girls come back and forth. 

Senator Lane. Who would detail him there ? 

Miss Reichel. I do not know. 

Senator Lane. \^^iose duty would it be ? 

Miss Reichel. The disciplinarian usually details his boys, but he 
usually sends them v\'here they are asked for. 

Senator Lane. Has Mr. Whitwell ever had them detailed to his 
service without having ri-quested them ? 

Miss Reichel. Yes; but if he had requested them to be taken out 
they would have. Those are instances. Here is another thing: 
Mr. Whitwell, so far as I know, is a good man and all that; I have 
nothing personal against him, but he does not use good English, for 
one thing. Expressions such as "I have wrote" and ''I will learn 
him" are common. He is at the head of the academic department in 
a great school. These things are excusable in some people, but not in 
the principal teacher of a school like that. 

Another thing that has happened to me — this is personal, but I do 
not have a personal feeling in regard to it — I have gone into Mr. 
Wliitwell's office and had him tell me, ''Oh, you are crazy; get out 
of this." I understand it was in fun, but it is not dignified. Those 
are little things, perhaps, but I think tiiey go to show 

Senator Lane. That the school is not being managed properly? 

Miss Reichel. J do not think it is l)eing managed properly. 1 have 
nothing personal whatever against Mr. WhitweJl. 

Here is anoth(>r thing: I have been in Carlisle six and a lialf years, 
and (hu'ing that time, to my recollection, Mr. Whitwell has never con- 
ducted a recitation in my room. He has never been present in my 
room to hear an entire recitation. So far as my work as teacher is 
concerned, I do not know how he can judge it. 


Senator Lane. He has not gone through and checked the work you 
have done ? 

Miss Reichel. He has not. When the study hour m the school 
buildings was resumed this fall, after having been discontinued for 
six years, the order came that the teachers should be on duty in their 
recitation rooms. He was to go in every evening and note just the 
work that was done. I do not think he has been through a dozen 
times. I have not kept a record, of course. When I am there, I 
carry out his orders; but I do not go around the campus trying to 
locate the principal teacher. 

Senator Lane. Do you think the efficiency of his department is not 
being kept up at as high a standard as it should be? 

Miss Reichel. I know it. 

Senator Lane. It is deteriorating? 

Miss Reichel. I do not see how it could help it. 

Senator Lane. Has he been there as long as you have ? 

Miss Reichel. Yes; he came shortly before I did. 

Senator Lane. You have had no chance to compare his work 

Miss Reichel. No, sir; I have not. I compare him with school 
superintendents I have known on the outside. 

Representative Stephens. Are the matron and the young lady 
pupils in harmony ? 

^liss Reichel. I think some of them dislike her, and yet I have 
heard others say they did not. 

Representative Stephens. What is your feeling toward her ? 

Miss Reichel. My opinion is that she is absolutely just. I think 
she treats all the gii'ls alike. I think she is a conscientious woman. 
I think perhaps her manner is misunderstood by the girls, but I do 
not think we can overestimate the difficulties that she faced when 
she came in there. 

Representative Stephens. Do the girls go to her and consult with 
her as they would a mother ? 

Miss Reichel. I can not say as to that; I do not know. 

Representative Stephens. It seems to be a fact that they do not 
do that; that they are afraid of her. 

Miss Reichel. A great many of those girls won't go to any of us. 
I have tried to make plain to all of them that I am first their friend 
and then their teacher, and yet few of them come to me for anything. 

Representative Stephens. Do you think there is any difference in 
teachers and matrons in that regard ? 

Miss Reichel. I think it would really be easier for a teacher than 
it would be for a matron, simply because a teacher has to do with a 
smaller number. She only comes in contact with a smaller number 
of pupils, and naturally is in more personal touch with them. 

Re])resentative Stephens. Wliat is the feeling between the matron 
and Mr. Friedman ? 

Miss Reichel. I think she is very loyal. 

Representative Stephens. How is it between her and Mr. ^Tiit- 

Miss Reichel. I think she is loyal to hini. 

Re])resentative Stephens. Is there not a bad state of feeling, in 
fact, between a good many of the employees of the school and the 
head of the school ? 


Miss Reichel. I think there is a great deal of disloyalty there. I 
think the disloyalty on the part of the employees has caused all this 
trouble. There are employees there — I can not swear to this, but 
it is a matter of common talk that there are employees on the campus 
who will speak of the superintendent as "Mose." I never allow any 
of the students — I can not swear to that, but that is a matter of 
common talk. 

Representative Stephens. Why do they call him "Mose" ? 

Miss Reichel. That is his name, but it implies a lack of proper 
respect, and I think it is caused by disloyalty among the employees. 
I think that is the root of the whole thing. If I could not be loyal 
to the superintendent I would have the decency to get out. 

Representative Stephens. Then there must be quite a difference 
between the pupils and the superintendent ? 

Miss Reichel. I do not know that there is. Those are just a few 
instances that I have heard. 

Representative Stephens. Have you ever heard him jeered as he 
was passmg around the quarters 1 

Senator Lane. Have you ever heard of its being done ? 

Miss Reichel. I have heard of its being done, but I could not say 
that it is true. 

Senator Lane. I want to ask you young ladies if you were requested 
to come here ? 

Miss Reichel. No, sir; we came of our own free will. 

•Senator Lane. Were you ? 

Miss Burns. No; I was not. 

Senator Lane. Was it suggested that it would be a good idea for 
you to come? 

Miss Burns. No. 

Senator Lane. Wliat was the motive ? 

Miss Burns. I supposed that the committee wanted to see me. I 
knew that employees were gomg over to the Y. M. C. A. hall all day 
yesterday, talking to the committee. 

Senator Lane. They sent for those; they were all subpoenaed, and 
you are the first voluntary witnesses. 

Miss Reichel. There has been no suggestion. We came volun- 

Miss Burns. When I came down last evening I wondered why 
the committee had not sent for me. When I came I was told that I 
was to hold myself in readiness to speak if the committee wanted to 
hear me. And I stand perfectly willing to answer anything I am 

Miss Reichel. I understand that before we signified our ^villing- 
ness to come down somebody phoned for us, and Mrs. Warner came 
to the gymnasium for us, and we signified our v/illingness to testify; 
so while they sent for us last night, it was not a case of anyone else 
asking us. 

There is one more thing I would like to mention. It is a pecuhar 
state of affairs to me, and I would like to bring it to your notice. 
I am not accusing anybody. Perhaj^s it has been brought to your 
notice with variations that there is a little trouble about girls meeting 
boys. Two of the boys in my school were involved in this matter, so 
I know whereof I speak. The boys were put in confinement in the 
guardhouse and the girls were put in confinement in the rooms they 


have for that purpose. If I am not mistaken, one of the boys by the 
name of Irvin Sherman was released from punishment on Friday, the 
day of the officers' reception. That evening Irvin Sherman danced 
vnth two of the girls and those girls concerned in this all'air were not 
present. The fidloM ing night was a Saturday night and they had a 
reception, and the other boys who were in this same affair came over 
there. One of the boys, who was reaUy the worst of the whole lot 
and who had made remarks injuring the reputation of one of the girls 
very.severel)^, came in and spent quite a Uttle bit of the evening 
dancing with that same girl, and he has since been at two dances, and 
he has spent a good deal of time dancing mth the sister of that girl. 
That was a queer state of afl'airs. 

Senator Lane. How do you account for that? 
^ Miss Reichel. The boys are not being punished as severely as the 

Senator Lane. Whose fault is that ? 

Miss Reichel. I do not know. 

Representative Stephens. What remedy would you suggest? 

Mss Reichel. Punish the boys the same as the girls are pun- 
ished, or even more severely. 

Representative Stephens. Who is guilty of that discrimimation 
against the girls ? 

Miss Reichel. I do not know. I think the girls are being pun- 
ished as hard as they should be. 

Senator Lane. Would not the superintendent be the one really to 
correct them ? 

Miss Reichel. I do not think so. I think the disciplinarians are 
placed there for the purpose of administering punishment. I do not 
think the superintendent lays down this punishment. 

Senator Lane. Assuming they do not administer it equally, then 
it is the duty of the superintendent to see that they do ? 

Miss Reichel. In case it is reported to him. 

Senator Lane. Does he not know of this ? 

Miss Reichel. I do not know wdiether he does or not. That is 
outside of my province, and I feel a hesitancy about interfering vdth 
other people's pusiness. 

Senator Lane. Do you think it is harmful to the welfare of the 
institution ? 

Mss Reichel. Certainly I do. It is placing the boys where they 
can get into trouble and get out in a few days, and the girls have to 

Senator Lane. It is an injury to the institution ? 

Miss Reichel. Certainly. 

Senator Lane. Then, if it were an injury to the institution and the 
superintendent had no means of finding it out and you had the infor- 
mation, would it not be your duty as a loyal assistent to him to 
inform him ? 

Miss Reichel. I suppose it would. I suppose in a wav it is a re- 
flection upon any cmployiM^, but still we do not know just how far 
that has gone, what st<ps have b(H'n taken. 

Senator Lane. If you have adopted the cours<> of letting those 
things go, and other employ* es do the same, would not tlie su])erin- 
tend<nt after a while g( t into a lamentable condition where he could 
not d(>fend himseK ? 


Miss Reichel. I do not know. Of coiirs(^, this is an unusual 

Senator Lane. If ther(> are those things being done, and that is the 
esprit do corps you have there, is not that detrimental, and oughtn't 
you to be cooperating? 

Miss Reichel. We ought to be. 

Miss Burns. I have just thought of a case of disciplim that I think 
would be a good thing to tell. I'spoke of Mr. Whitw^ll as h' ad of the 
school. This is one case I was concerned in, an^l, so far as I know, 
no one else. It never was settled to my satisfaction. 

Th'TO was a boy at the school by the name of Leo White. Ho 
boarded at the school, and attended Conway Plall. I r' ported to Mr. 
Whitwell that thi« boy met a girl outside of the school building — in 
broad daylight, of course, but he stayed there 10 minutes and met 
her. Mr. WhitwcU sent for the girl, and she denied it, and the boy 
denied it. I saw th'-m meet, and I was positive that I v/as reporting 
the truth when I r< ported it, and I ft It it was my duty to tcU it. Mr. 
Whitwell told h'^r that shf^ should not deny it, because it had b<M n told 
by one of the teach- rs, and that they were seen to meet, and it would 
do no good to dc^ny what was absolutely true. 

Wli' n h^ call d up the boy th'^ boy d< nied it, and h'^ was allowed to 
go. That boy afterwards told one of thn < mployees he would lik(^ to 
meet th'^ teacher that told about that. Miss Wilson was the on(^ that 
was talking to him, and in talking to her afterwards I told her I was 
perfectly wilHng to meet the boy. Then the two girls from the busi- 
ness department that did Mr. Whitwell's office work went to these 
students, or at least to the girl — I am not positive they went to the 
boy — anel told them Miss Burns had reported them. I was never 
called into the matter. 

The same thing occurred again, and I called Miss Wilson, and she 
saw them mee t. She was a personal friend of Leo White's and he told 
her it was'not so. After he hael denied it, she told him she had seen it, 
and then I called Mr. Whitwell. I really felt it lowered my pro- 
fessional dignity to allow a boy to say that I told what v/as not so. 
The girl was finally suspended, not for any immorality, but for general 
disob'^dience and impertinence. Leo White seemed to be^ a sort of 
will-o'-the-wisp. He attended Conway Hall. We were having les- 
sons at one time, and for some reason he was at lib<"rty, and the order 
cam'> around that the boys, in charg'' of the large boys' elisciplinarian — 
that is, the boys in my room — should go out to rid th'> campus of 
dandelions. So I released the boys, and I had four or five girls left in 
my room. So I spoke te) Mr. McKean and a«ked him what part of the 
campus the boys were going to work on. He told me, and I said that 
the day was very warm, and suggested that I take another part of 
the campus and have th*" girls out. Mr. McKcan said, "Very well." 
So we s( nt to th" kitchen for knives, and went out back e)f the teach- 
ers' quarters and started to cut th^S':> dand' lions. Th- y were be- 
coming ripe and were irally a m(>nace to the lawn. I took the girls 
right })ack e)f my own eiuartcrs. The elay was < xtreni'^ly warm, and 
very soon one of the girls cani'^ to me and said, "Miss Burns, Leo 
Whit(^ is sitting up th'Tc on a lawii mowr, and he is making motions 
anel signalling elown h^n , and we elon't like Mm." 

So I took them back into one of those courts out of his line of vision, 
and then I noticed that as the girls went from the school building to 


the girls' quarters, this Loo White sitting on the Lawn mower kept 
passing remarks to them. Some of the girls flung their he ads and 
acted rather insulted about it. One started to stop, and I just 
motioned to her and she went on. 

Then I started over to the school building to report to Mr. Whitwell, 
and, of course, I suppose I was rather excit( d. I went into his office, 
and Augustine Knox was in there. Rather quickly I told him that 
Leo White was sittmg out there and annoying the girls that were 
being excused from the school building to the'girls' quarters. Mr. 
Whitwell said, "We have enough to do to attend to our own depart- 
ment." I said, "This is our own department. When the girls are 
being excused from school to quarters a boy sits there annoying 
them." He said, "Give me a particular instance. Don't come in 
here chewing the rag unless you know what you are talking about." 
I said, "Just stand here by the window an d"^ look, and you will get 
your particular instance." Just on the spur of the moment I said, 
"Here comes a girl down the stairs now. You look and you will see 
that-that fellow will annoy her as she passes." So Mr. Whitwell and 
Augustine and I stepped to the window, and, sure enough, Leo spoke 
to her. Augustine coughed, and Leo was notified that somebody 
was watching him, and the girl passed by. Mr. Whitwell said, "We 
can not be annoyed by things of that sort. We have to attend to 
our own affairs." I became indignant about it. I said, "If that is 
the way you feel about it, I certainly shall not belittle myself by 
reporting things to you." So I went back to my girls, and in the 
meantime a telephone message had come to the superintendent's 
office to Miss Ridenour to get out of her office and take care of the 
girls on the campus and send the boy back to the boys' quarters. 

When I spoke to the girls about "it they said that this fellow had 
been whistling and hollering at them. It was a lazy combination: 
A lawn mower, a mule, and a boy, and a hot summer day. He had 
a sort of smooth, suave manner, and no matter what I said about it 
he said it was not so, and I really did not enjoy having my students 
belittle me in that way. 

Senator Lane. What are the moral conditions out at the school ? 

Miss Burns. That is another thing that I know nothing about at 
first hand. 

Senator Lane. We need not enter into it, then. 

Miss Burns. I hear things, of course. I never have seen boys meet 
girls except in this instance. 

Then in regard to Augustine Knox. Augustine came over to Mr. 
Whitwell's oHice as janitor, and he was a nuisance. He knew more 
than any teacher, and he bossed the teachers. He would walk into 
our rooms in front of our students and order us to do things. I had 
to order him to take his hat off one day. 

I have charge of that line going back at the quiet hour, and it has 
been rather a worry. There has ni ver been anything happened 
during that march that I have been able to discover, and the girls 
have been agreeable, but it has been a worry, because the responsi- 
bility, I feel, is rather great. Durhig the first part of the year I was 
rather annoyed at boys who would step from th(^ rooms out to the 
porches and watch th(^ girls go by. I reported that to Mr. Whitwell 
the first evening, and he said that we could not have that. He told 
me to remind him of that the next mornuig, and he sent a note 


saying that the teachers must keep the boys in the rooms until the 
girls are at their own quarters. That has been done ever since. 

Then I complained to him about Augustine. I said, "Augustine 
comes out into tliis hall, and he feels it his bounden duty to be pleasant 
and pass the time of day with every girl that he can speak to." I 
knew of nothing wrong that he said, but it was a breach of discipline 
and an annoyance, and he would step back into the office and watch 
the companies go. I reported that to Mr. Wliitwell, aiul he sort of 
laughed at it. I reported it again, and Augustine was there, and he 
said, "The teachers are cranks," which may be tiiie. Then at the 
teachers' meeting I reported it and said to Mr. Whitwell, "I simply 
can not have Augustine in your office when the girls are going, or if 
he is in your office he must stay in there and close the door." I would 
see that one uniform here and there, and, so far as I knew, there might 
be dozens of boys in those halls. There is one main hall, with a cross 
hall halfway down. Augustine would dart about, here, there, and 
everywhere. At the teachers' meeting he said, "Well, we will have 
to get rid of Augustine; he is getting girl struck," which was 'tiaie. 
The next day Augustine was still there, and he was rather impertinent 
about the quiet hour. And Augustine remained for two or thi-ee 

Representative Stephens. Don't you think that the most of your 
trouble arises from the fact that you have coeducation there, and it is 
hard to keep the boys and girls separate ? The troubles of both you 
ladies seem to be along those lines. Don't you think it would be for 
the good of the community to make this either a girls' school or boys' 
school ? 

Miss Burns. 1 have thought of that myself. I think we are rather 
sensitive on that subject of the boys and girls meeting, because we 
feel we have to be eternally vigilant along just that fine. 

(Thereupon, at 10.30 o'clock a. m., the committee stood adjourned.) 


Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs, 

Washington, D. C. 

The joint commission met in its office, room 128, in the Senate 
Office Building, at 10 o'clock, a. m. 

Present: Senators Robinson (chairman), Lane, and Townsend; 
Representatives Stephens and Carter. 


The witness was duly sworn by the chairman. 

Th(^ Chairman. What is your full name ? 

Mr. NoRi. S. J. Nori. 

Th{^ Chairman. You are the chief clerk of the Carlisle Indian School, 
Mr. Nori 'i 

Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. m 

The Chairman. How long have you served in that grade? f 

Mr. Nori. Why, since, I guess it was, the last part of Maj. Mercer's 
administration — 1907, up until the present time, I should say. 



The Chairman. You are an Indian? 

Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What tribe do you belong to? 

Mr. NoRi. To the Pueblo Tribes of New Mexico. 

The Chairman. Were you employed in the Indian Service before 
you became chief clerk at Carlisle? 

Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir; I was chief clerk since September, 1900. 

The Chairman. About what salary do you receive? 

Mr. NoRi. I received when I first entered $660, and now I am 
receiving §1,300. 

The Chairman. As chief clerk, what are yom* duties, Mr. Nori ? 

Senator Lane. If I may interruj^t. does that include subsistence? 

Mr. Nori. No; just payment of bills. 

Senator Lane. Your salary of SI, 300, does that include board and 
lodging ? 

Mr. Nori. No, sir. 

The Chairman. What are your duties as chief clerk and how are 
they defined ? 

Mr. Nori. I pay all Government bills — aU bills coming under the 
head of administrative aff au's. 

The Chairman. What other bills are there besides Government 
bills or bills coming under the head of administrative affairs ? 

Mr. Nori. Bills of a miscellaneous character, which are not appro- 
priated by the Government at times, according to the direction of 
the supermtendent. 

The Chairman. Have you any other duties besides the payment 
of biUs, and do j^ou keep vouchers to cover them? 

;Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How do you keep your vouchers and what records 
or books do you keep to show what payments you make ? 

Mr. Nori. For the vouchers covering payments on Government 
affairs, I use the prescribed form — regulations that are involved in 
Government transactions. 

The Chairman. Do you keep a ledger or book of accounts ? 

Mr. Nori. Yes, sir; cash books, shomng receipts and disburse- 

The Chairman. Do you keep separate accounts as to the different 
classes of funds ? 

Mr. Nori. They are all in one book, each having a different head 
of a different appropriation and different designations. 

The Chairman. Wtrnt is the "class 4" fund and what does it 
comprise ? 

Mr. Nori. "Class 4" fund comprises funds that are received from 
various sources, such as subscriptions to the paper, any products 
of the school from the manufacture of articles in the various depart- 
ments, products of the farm, or anything that may be manufactured 
in the school. 

The Chairman. That is, when the school manufactures any product 
or the farm produces any product that is sold, the proceeds of that 
sale go into "class 4 "? 

IVIr. Nori, Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. And those funds are paid to you and you keep the 
account; is that correct? 


Mr. NoRi. I receive it from different sources — from the party wlio 
sells these things, and it is brought up to me. 

The Chairman. Do the regulations contemplate that all the pro- 
ceeds of funds that are to go into "class 4 " at that school should come 
into your hands ? 

Mr. NoRi. Most generally all come to me. 

The Chairman. I know. Has anyone besides you the right to 
retain those funds ? 

Mr. NoRi. No, sir; I do not think so.' 

The Chairman. You keep the vouchers on the regular blank forms 
prescribed by the Government ? 

Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. 

The C^HAiRMAN. Have you those vouchers now ? 

Mr. NoRi. No, sir; they are on file, I presume. There are copies 
made — two copies are sent to the C^ommissioner of Indian Affairs 
and one copy of the voucher is retained for our file. 

The Chairman. Have you destroyed any of the vouchers that you 
made in the handling of this "class 4" fund? 

Mr. NoRi. "Class 4" funds? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. NoRi.'No, sir. 

The Chairman. Have you destroyed any vouchers that you took 
there ? 

Mr. NoRi. No, sir; I have destroyed some receipts that are not in — - 
on the Government vouchers; and I have changed some vouchers that 
are Government. 

The Chairman. Why did you do that? 

Mr. NoRi. By intimation and admonishment of Friedman. 

The Chairman. You mean Supt. Friedman of the Carlisle School ? 

Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. When was it that he first intimated to you that 
these vouchers should be destroyed or changed ? 

Mr. NoRi. It was soon after he had received a letter from the 
Commissioner of Indian Affairs regarding the athletic fund. 

The Chairman. Was it before or after the joint commission was 
over at Carlisle ? 

Mr. NoRi. It was before. 

The Chairman. Do you know about how long before ? 

Mr. NoRi. Well, I could not say very well. I just know there was 
a letter received from the office relative to the athletic account, i ;;^ 

The Chairman. Do you know whether or not Mr. Linnen, the 
inspector, had been over there before Mr. Friedman fu'st told you to 
destroy or change those vouchers ? 

Mr. NoRi. I did not quite catch that, Senator. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether or not Mr. Linnen, the 
inspector, had been to Carlisle before Mr. Friedman told you to 
destroy or change those vouchers. 

Mr. NoRi. Well, he told me before and after. 

The Chairman. Before and after ? 

Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What I am trying to do is to locate as nearly as 
possible the first time that he told you to destroy those vouchers. 

vScnator Townsend. Will vou just ask him what he means by 


The Chairman. I am goin^ to in just a minute, when I get the 
time iixecl. 

Can you give me a little more definitely the fu'st time that he 
gave 5-0U those instructions ? 

]\lr. NoKi. Well, the first time that he gave me those intimations 
was, as 1 stated, soon after he had received a letter, and it seemed 
that he had received word from Mr. Abbott, I believe— of course I 
do not know but— telling him that he should ihx up his accounts as 
he thought they would be investigated. Then he came to me and 
said, "If the accounts are not all right, you better fix them up " and 
that was soon after he had received a letter. And then, from time 
to time, he asked me if the accounts were all right, and I told him 
the accounts had gone in, and there can not be nothing done to 
them, and I guess it was— when Mr. Linnen arrived he then asked 
me again about these records, intimating that they ought to be fijced 
up; and after he left— after Mr. Linnen left— then he told me that 
Vi!^ n ^^*^^" *^^^"^ ^^i^' because you will be imi)licated." 
Ihe Chairman. Wliere were you when he made that statement to 
you ? 

Mr. NoRi. I was in his house alone with him. 
Tlie Chairman. What time was it, as near as you can state ? 
Mr. Nori. I took some papers over to him about 1 or 2 o'clock in 
the afternoon. 

The Chairman. How did you happen to go over there ? 
Mr. Nori. I had to take some papers for his signature. 
The Chairman. You say that he had received a letter or word 
from Mr. Abbott ? 

Mr. Nori. He had intimated so. 
The Chairman. Who had mtimatetl so ? 
Mr. Nori. Mr. Friedman. 
The Chairman. Mr. Friedman ? 
Mr. Nori. Yes. 

Senator Townsend. Wliat do you mean by ''mtimated," so that 
we may judge? 

Senator Lane. You said Abbott ? 
Mr. Nori. Abbott. 

The Chairman. You say that he had had a letter from Abbott 
stating that the accounts were not all right and that they had better 
be fLxed up. Now, what did Mr. Friedman say? 

Mr. Nori. He does not du-ectly say anything. He just say "I 

beheve they will; I understand they are going to go over our accounts; 

you better fix them up. I have reasons to believe that they will be."' 

The Chairman. Did lie say what reasons he had to believe that « 

Mr. Nori. No, sir. 

The Chairman. How did you get the impression that he had had 
word from Abbott ? 

Mr. Nori. Well, it was — it was a topic of conversation. 
The Chairman. What ? 
Mr. Nori. It was a topic of conversation. 

The Chairman. Yes; but when I asked you specifically what he 
said to you, you did not even mention Mr. Abbott's name. What 
1 want to know is how you cou])le Abbott with his statement. What 
was It he said about Mr. Abl)ott that led you to believe that Mr. 
Abbott had sent liim that word ? 


!Mr. NoRi. Well, he just said he received a communication. 

The Chairman. From Mr. Abbott ? 

Mr. NoRi. From Mr. Abbott. 

The Chairman. You, of course, did not see the communication? 

Mr. NoRi. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you remember about when that was that he 
said he had a communication from Mr. Abbott? 

Mr. NoRi. Why, I should judge, about two weeks after the office 
letter came. 

The Chairman. After the office letter came? 

Mr. NoRi. Regarding the athletic association. 

The Chairman. That was a letter from the Commissioner of Indian 
Affairs regarding the athletic fund ? 

Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you see that letter? 

Mr. NoRi. No, sir; I do not believe— I beUeve I did — I am not 
certain; but I think it was held by Mr. Friedman and Mr. Warner, 
so I do not recall. 

The Chairman. When was the last time you talked with Mr. Fried- 
man about these vouchers which you destroyed and changed ? 

Mr. NoRi. Well, it was about three or four days before Mr. Linnen 
came back the second time. 

The Chairman. Between the time that the joint commission was at 
Carlisle and Mr. Linnen's second trip there, was it ? 

Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Where were you when that conversation occurred? 

Mr. NoRi. We were talking on the walk — in my office there for a 

The Chairman. What did he say to you then about the vouchers? 

Mr. NoRi. He said they ought to be fixed up, and he inferred he 
wanted me to destroy any evidence there was in connection with them. 

The Chairman. Why did you infer from that statement that he 
wanted you to destroy everything in connection with them? 

Mr. NoRi. I do not suppose he wants to bear the responsibility of it. 

The Chairman. Do you know whether or not he knew the vouchers 
and receipts were not right ? 

Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Hov/ do you know that? 

Mr. NoRi. Because he instructed me to make those. 

The Chairman. He instructed you to make false vouchers? . 

Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. What was the character of those false vouchers and 
receipts that he instructed you to make? 

Mr. NoRi. Well, in regard to the transportation, especially during 
the years 190S, 1909, and 1910. There was a regulation prohibiting 
sohciting of puj)ils, in a general way, and there was times when jnipils 
had to pay their transportation home on account of them not being 
tliere the whole length of time —for instance, if they wanted to visit 
home. Now, in order to get pubhcity of the school, he intimated, or, 
he said, that he had on understanding with these pupils that they 
should interest themselves in behalf of the school, or in some way to 
help along the cause of the school, either by gathering pupils or escort- 
ing them, he would refund their transportation money that they had 
deposited. These— when the tickets; the tickets are all charged to 



the school, and when tlie— when the bills are presented, Meyer, the 
clerk, designated on each one just how they were to be paid and 
whether from personal funds or Government funds. Then those that 
were marked ''personal" I took over to Mr. Miller, the financial clerk 
who has charge of the individual Indian monevs, and secured froni 
him the funds. These moneys received and bills I tak(^ into Mr 
Friedman; then he designates anv that he has an understandino- with 
regardino- solicitation of pupils. These are held out. Their tickets 
are j^aid by the Government; but these are held jjending tlieir return 
or whatever— if they have escorted a pupil or if they have inter- 
ested themselves for the school; that is a matter between him and 
the pupil, no doubt. In that time there accumulated quite a sum 

Tlie Chairman. How much ? 

Mr. NoRi. I should judge between $500 or $600 and some cents. 

The^CHAiRMAN. What was done with the $500 or $600 accumu- 
lated funds, vouchers for which were held out in the wav vou have 
stated? "^ -^ 

Mr. NoRi. When Mr. McLaughlin, the inspector, came there in 
1911, I believe— or 1910 or 1911, I don't just remember— to investi- 
gate certain irregularities regarding his pay roll, Mr. Friedman asked 
me lor the statement of these funds, which is kept in sort of a slip- 
shape, showing each of the pupils with the amounts and the tickets 
^. ^ , r y^^y used— a statement, I presume, he may want to show to 
Mr. McLaughlin. 

The Chairman. If you do not know what he did with it, you need 
not state. Go ahead and tell what you did. 

Mr. NoRi. I made the statement and gave it to him, with the 
money, in an envelope. 

The Chairman. Gave it to whom ? 

Mr. Nori. Gave it to Mr. Friedman. 

The Chairman. Wliere had this $500 or $600 that you have 
described been kept prior to your giving it to Mr. Friedman « 

Mr. Nori. In the safe. 

The Chairman. You say it was in an envelope? 

Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you know what he did with that $500 or $600 ? 

Mr. Nori. I do not know what he did with it. 

The Chairman. Did lie ever return it to you ? 

Mr. Nori. No, sir; I imagine he disposed of it as it was intended. 

I he Chairman. You imagine, but you do not know. What 
became of the vouchers that related to this $500 or $600 ? 

Mr. Nori. Thej^ were vouchered previously. 

The Chairman. That fund had alreadv been vouchered — credit 
had been taken with the Government, but the money had been held 
m the safe there m an enveloi)e and was finally paid over by you to 
Friedman? i ./ j 

Mr. Nori. Turned over to him. 
The Chairman. Sir? 
Mr. Nori. Turned over to him. 

Senator Lane. Is that the regular procedure and the i)ropei 
thing to do? ^ 

Mr. Nori. That is a matter I can not question— the superintend- 
ent — I do not think it is proper. 

35601— PT 11—14 22 


The Chairman. As a matter of fact, you knew it was not proper ? 
Mr. NoRi. I do not think it was. 

The Chairman. You knew that when the voucher of any person 
was taken for money that the money should go to that person ? 
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How long had that fund been in the safe before 
you deUvered it to Mr. Friedman ? 

Mr. NoRi. Of course, it accumulated from time to time — from 
1908 to 1910. 

The Chairman. Do you know of any cases where the Government 
fund was charged with the transportation of pupils for trips that 
they never made ? 
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How much of that class of funds was there, and 
how was it handled ? Just explain that as you did the other. 

Mr. NoRi. In that respect, for instance, if a boy or a person had 
interested himself, that is, for the school, it was— whatever it was, 
the amount that he had incurred or supposed to have incurred, was 
made up in a ticket form and charged to the Government. 

The Chairman. His voucher was taken or a voucher was taken 
for transportation which was not used, in order to pay him for some- 
thing else ? 

Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do j^ou know what ho was supposed to have 


Mr. NoRi. To receive the money? 

The Chairman (continuing). To receive any money at all? 
Mr. NoRi. He should have presented a traveling expense voucher. 
The Chairman. A what ? 

Mr. NoRi. He should have presented a travehng expense voucher 
against the Government. 

The Chairman. Did he do that ? 
Mr. NoRi. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Did the Government actually pay those items 
of money that you have referred to on tickets and transportation 
that was not actually used, and who got the money ? 

Mr. NoRi. You mean 

The Chairman. I mean this: When a voucher was taken for a 
ticket for, say, John Smith, from Carlisle, Pa., for instance, to some 
point in Idaho, and he never made the trip at all, was the money 
actually paid out on the voucher? 
Mr. NoRi. No, sir. 

The Chairman. What was done with it ? 
Mr. NoRi. It was placed in that envelope. 
The Chairman. In which envelope ? 
Mr. NoRi. Mr. Friedman's. 

The Chairman. In the envelope that was fhially deUvered to Mr. 

Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did the superintendent get credit for the Gov- 
ernment voucher ? 
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. 
The Chairman. In his accounts ? 
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. 


The Chairman. So that the method was, if I understand \'ou, to 
draw money out of the fund on a voucher shomng that the pupil 
had taken the trip at the Government expense ? 

Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. The money drawn on that voucher was placed in 
an envelope and kept in the safe ? 

Mr. NoRi. Yes, sn\ 

The Chairman. Alons: ^^^th other funds similarly drawn « 

Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Until finally $500 or $600 had accumulated and 
you dehvered it to Mr. Friedman in an envelope ? 

Mr. Nori. Just a moment. In that respect, Senator, there were 
ot course, other funds received, such as the sale of old iron, old bones' 
oll^ags— which are not "class 4" money, you understand. 

Ihe Chairman. What are they? 

Mr. Nori "Class 1 " money, revertible to the Treasury Department, 
which the disbursing officer can not receive any claim for disburse- 
ment; that IS, it reverts back into the Treasury. 

The Chairman. How much of that "class 1" money, coming from 
the sources that you have just described, was received there that vou 
know of ? "^ 

Mr. Nori. Oh, I should judge between— maybe about $300. 

The Chairman. That should have gone mto the Treasury? 

Mr. Nori. That should properly have gone mto the Treasury. 

The Chairman. Did it go into the Treasury ? 

Mr. Nori. Not unless he put it in without my knowledge. 

The Chairman. Wliat did you do with it? 
_ Mr. Nori. I gave it to Friedman, supposing he would dispose of 
It, or, if he wanted to use it for some purpose, I would not be able to 

The Chairman. Since you have been there, have you ever paid 
anything out of this "class 1" funds back into the Treasury? Have 
you covered any part of the moneys received from such sources back 
mto the Treasury? 

Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. But there has been about $300 received from the 

^^l^r^^i^"^^ ''^"^^ ^'^^^ ^"^ ®^^^M5 ii'O" that you paid over to Friedman? 
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Did you take anv receipt for that? 

Mr. Nori. No, sir. 

The Chairman. How did you come to pay it over to him? 

Mr. Nori. I beheved he was responsible for it, and if he— I was 
ms subordhiate — I could not very well 

The Chairman. How did you\'ome to pay it over to him? Did 
you just go and say to him, "Here, Mr. Friedman, is $271 that you 
can take and use"? 

Mr. Nori. He asked me for a statement of this ])articular fund, as 
1 stated, and I made out the statement showhig in detail all these 
transactions, debit and credit, and he said he wanted— he would like 
to have it, and that is all there was to it. 

The Chairman. He asked vou then for the fund ? 

Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. 

Senator Lane. Wliat is your usual custom of turning this fund 
over into the Treasury— do you turn it in or does he turn it hi ? 


Mr. NoRi. The custom ? 

Senator Lane. What is the custom or the habit? Do you turn 
these moneys over to him, funds fiom "class 1," or do you turn them 
over to the Government, as a rule ? 

Mr. NoRi. I take them to him first. 

The Chairman. What do the regulations require? 

Mr. NoRi. They should be turned into the 

The Chairman. I know, but by whom? 

Mr. NoRi. By the disbursing officer. 

The Chairman. Who is the disbursing officer? 

Mr. NoRi. Friedman. 

The Chairman. The regulations require that he shall turn it into 
the Treasury ? 

Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you know how anv part of that approximately 
$300 was used by him ? 

Mr. NoRi. Well, I believe the purchase of stamps was one item, 
the payment of affidavits under exceptions and various sundry 
articles that may be used for the office or for purposes that he did not 
want to go through the regular formality of securing authority for, 
but how much of that I am unable to state. 

The Chairman. Do you know of any sum, in addition to this ap- 
proximately $300 to which you have referred, of the same class, that 
was received by Friedman and used for a personal purpose ? 

Mr. NoRi. I can not say. 

The Chairman. Do you know of a fund of about $271 that was 
paid out on the furniture ? 

Mr. NoRi. That is from sale such as old iron, and so forth. 

The Chairman. That is "Class 1 " funds, is it not? 

Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. All right. What became of that $271, and how 
was that handled? (After a pause.) Come along with it. 

Mr. NoRi. That was paid out of that fund to buy some furniture 
for Superintendent Friedman's house. 

The Chairman. Why did you not tell me that a while ago, when 
I first asked you ? Had you forgotten about it ? 

(No response.) 

The Chairman. Did you handle that fund ? 

Mr. NoRi. No, sir — Kensler. 

The Chairman. Kensler handled that? 

Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Was that ever turned over to you? 

Mr. NoRi. No, sir. 

The Chairman. Were there other moneys besides those you have 
described that were received from individual pupils that were paid 
over to Friedman by you ? 

^Ir. NoRi. At the end of every month this matter was always 
taken up with the superintendent, and, as I say, he designates on 
there which to hold back and the rest — the tickets were paid for — 
what was held back was vouchorcd on the Government. 

The Chairman. How did that happen to be done? 

Mr. NoRi. What did you say? 

The Chairman. How did that happen to be done, who caused it 
to be done ? 



Mr. NoRi. The superintendent. 

The Chairman. \Yhat was done A\ath those moneys which were 
vouehered aganist the Government by you ? 

Mr. XoRi. It w<is turned over to Mr.'Friedinan. 

Senator Lane. For my information, is not that the reouLir custom 
for them ? ^ ^o^^J^ "ver to him, and do s he become responsible 

Mr. NoRL Yes, sir; he is resf)on!-ible for them. 

Senator Lane. Does this tUff r from any other transaction? 

Mr. NoRi. No, sir. 

Senator Lane. Are thi>sc false vouchers ? 

Mr. NoRi. What did you say ? 

Senator Lane. Are these false vouchers? 

Mr NoRL Well, if he had an understanding with a pupil that he 
would mterest hunself for the school 

Senator Lane. That is against the regulations ? 

Mr. NoRi. Yes. Then, he would voucher his ticket and hold the 

Th- Chairman You understand the pupil had already paid his 
money ior the ticket and deposited it there ? ^ i 

Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. 

f 7^^.f ^-^^^^^^^?^\ S^ that that was drawn upon a voucher that was 
lalse, it the pupd had aheadv paid his money « 
Mr. XoRi. Yes. 

The Chairman You said awhile ago there was a regulation against 
soliciting pupils for the schools ? & s o 

Mr. NoRi. Yes. 

The Chairman. Was that a printed regulation? 

Mr. NoRi. I believe it w.-is a printed regulation. 

Senator Townsend. Who issued that regulation? 
^ Mr. NoRi The clepartment; I think it is issued from the Commis- 
sioner of Indian Affairs' office. 

Senator Townsend. That is, they did not want the superintendent 
to get any more pupils down there at the school ? 

Mr. NoRi. Did not want them to solicit— did not want anybody to 
go out and solicit— had to devise some other means. There was no 
solicitation allowed ail over the service. 

Mr. Carter. When was that regulation issued, Mr. Nod? 

rfi- ^,^^^- -"-^ ^^^ during 1908 or 1909—1 can not recall. 

I he Chairman. Do you recall about the total amount of money 
claimed to have been paid over to Mr. Friedman on false vouchers « 

Mr. ^oRI. Well, I should judge about $1,500, more or less. 

ilie Chairman. Do you keep any account of it? 

Mr. NoRi. No, sir. 

The Chairman. ^What is the total amount of vouchers and receipts 
that you destroyed since this investigation began ? 

Mr. NoRi. I destroyed receipts that I had given to Mr. I^Iiller, the 
banker. ' 

The Chairman. Where ditl you get them « 

Mr. NoRi. I got them from Mr. Miller's office. 

The Chairman. How (Hd you get them? 

Mr. NoRi. I went in there and just took them. 

1 he Chairman. What time was it when you got them? 

Mr. i\oRi. One evening about 8 or 9 o'clock. 


The Chairman. Was he there? 

Mr. NoRi. No, sh. m 

The Chairman. He did not know you were getting them? ^ 

Mr. NoRi. No, sir. 

The Chairman. How many times did you go there and take 
receipts and vouchers for that purpose ? 
Mr. NoRi. Twice. 

The Chairman. Wlien was the last time ? 

Mr. NoRi. The hist time was just before Mr. Linnen arrived on his 
last trip. 

The ChairivIan. Now, I want you to tell me as definitely as you 
can what vouchers and receipts you took the first time from Mr. 
Miller's ofHce. 

Mr. NoRi. Well, I took the receipts that I thought would involve 
the years of 1908, 1909, and 1910. 
The Chairman. Keceipts for what ? 

Mr. NoRi. Receipts for tickets that I had given to Mr. Miller. 
The Chairman. Do you mean for the tickets covered by both ' 
accounts that you have referred to ? I 

Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. . i . 

The Chairman. They were the false vouchers that you had issued 
for those years ? 
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Wliy did you take those for those particular years j 
at that time ? Just explain that to me. 1 

Mr. NoRi. Because it would involve that amount that was turned 
over to Mr. Friedman. 

The Chairman. At whose instance did you get those vouchers, and 
what did you do with them ? 

Mr. NoRi. At the instance of Mr. Friedman, and I burned them. 
vSenator Townsend. What chd Mr. Friedman say to you about 
those vouchers that caused you to go over there and get them ? 

Mr. NoRi. He said, "You should destroy them," or "Destroy the 

Senator Townsend. Where did he tell you that i 
Mr. NoRi. He told me that in a private conversation. 
Senator Townsend. Wliere ? . • rr 

Mr. NoRi. On the walks between his house and the office. 
Senator Townsend. That was something more than an intimation; 
that w^as a direct order to you to do that, was it not • _ , . 

Mr. NoRi. He said it would involve me, and told me that the evi- 
dence had better be destroyed; that is all. 

The Chairman. Will you give, as nearly as you can, the exact Ijui- 
guage that Friedman used, and what you said to Imn? Just give 
the conversation in detail, as near as you can. 

Mr NoRi He said, "Well, Mr. Nori, what have you done about 
those vouchers that we spoke about?" "WeU," I said, "Mr. Fried- 
man, there is really hardly anything worth while doing, because i 
said' "the only thing that can hai)pen now is to— is to offset this 
invcstigathig committee here, but," 1 said, "it won't change the 
voucliers that are in the auditor's office." I said, "The oiffy thmg, 
probably, would be to destroy the evidence." He says, "lou better 
destroy the evidence, because," he says, "you are involved m it, and 
you will be hable for it." 



The Chairman. How long was it after that before you went after 
them ? 

Mr. NoRi. Well, I guess it was three days after. 

The Chairman. Was that before the joint commission visited 
Carlisle ? 

Mr. NoRi. No; that was after. 

The Chairman. How long after? Fix the time as definitely as 
you can. 

Mr. Nori. About three days before Mr. Linnen arrived. 

The Chairman. You mean the second time? 

Mr. Nori. The last trip. 

The Chairman. Then you got the false vouchers for the three 
years you have s])oken about. What did you get the second time, 
and how did you happen to go back? 

Mr. Nori. Well, 1 went back and took those from there on, some 
of them. 

The Chairman. Why did you not get them all the first time? 
What did you want to make two bites at it for? 

Mr. Nori. I was more concerned — Friedman was more concerned 
about that, as I thought that sum of $500 or $600 

The Chairman. That was what you especially had in mind when 
you first went down there ? 

Mr. Nori. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. How did you come to change your mind, and 
think that vou ought to get them all ? 

Mr. Nor/. Well — - 

The Chairman. Did he say anything to you about it after that 
that caused you to think you had better go back and get some more ? 

Mr. Nori. He told me, he said, "You are going to be liable for