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CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
JOINT COMMISSION OF THE
CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES
SIXTY-THIRD CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION ^ ^ /
TO
INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS
FEBRUARY 6, 7, 8, and MARCH 25, 1914
PAKT 11
Printed for the use of the Joint Commission
WASHINGTON
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OPFIOB
1914
Congress of the United States.
JOINT COMMISSION TO INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS.
Senatoes : Repeesentatives :
JOE T, ROBINSON, Arkansas, Chairman. JOHN H. STEPHENS, Texas.
HARRY LANE, Oregon.. CHARLES D. CARTER, Oklahoma.
CHARLES E. TOWNSEND, Michigan. CHARLES H. BURKE, South Dakota.
R, B. Keating, Arkansas, Secretary.
Ross WiLLUMS, Arkansas, Clerk.
Do of D.
- ■•!' 27 1915
CONTENTS.
Testimony of — Page.
Mrs. Rosa B. La Flesche (outing manager) 965
Pupils —
Hiram Chase 978
John Gibson 988
Alvis Martin 993
Louis Braun •. 996
Peter Eastman 999
Edward Bracklin 1003
Henry Broker 1009
Zephaniah Simons ' 1011
Montreville Yuda 1016
Wallace Denny (assistant disciplinarian) 1049
Mrs. N. R. Denny 1056
Mrs. Bertha D. Canfield (teacher) 1058
Mr. John Whitwell (principal teacher) 1063
Re Julia Hardin 1081
' ' Stolen pies " 1083
Industrial training 1086
Health and sanitation 1088
Correspondence and comments 1089
Miss Julia Hardin 1100
Mrs. Angel Dietz (teacher) 1106
Louis Schmegman 1111
Mrs. Lydia E. Kaup (normal teacher) 1112
William H. Miller (financial clerk) 1114
Re organization of athletic association and system of accounting 1115
Identification of various checks 1116
Identification of checks on account of Supt. Friedman 1121
Mileage books 1122
Expenditures for arrests, prizes, clippings, etc 1126
E. L. Martin (press agent) 1131
Y\'illiam H. Miller, resumed 1133
Reorganization of athletic association 1133
Statement of receipts from games 1136
Method of accounting for receipts 1140
William B. Gray (farmer) 1144
0. K. Ballard (second farmer) 1148
W. J. Ryan (dairyman) 1151
Dr. E. A. Knoble (president Dickinson College) 1154
Fiske Goodyear (merchant) 1162
Rev. George M. Diffenderfer (minister) 1167
Dr. A . R. Allen (\-isiting physician) 1172
J. W. Henderson (attorney) 1178
Rev. Alexander McMillan 1180
George Abrams (gardner) 1186
WilUam Nonaat (tailor) 1187
Miss Emma C. Lovewell (teacher) 1182
Miss Ilattie M. McDowell (teacher) 1185
Edward McKean (disciplinarian) 1189
Miss Margaret M. Sweeney (teacher) 1193
Miss Anna H. Ridenour (matron) 1195
Re Julia Hardin 1196
General conditions 1199
Dr. Walter Rendtorff (school physician) 1208
in
IV CONTENTS.
Testimony of — Continued. P^g®-
Harvey K. Meyer (superintendent's clerk) 1204
Charles H. Cams (painter) 1205
Martin L. Lau (carriage maker) 1206
John A. Herr (carpenter) 1206
William C. Shambaugh (blacksmith) 1207
H. Gardner (assistant carpenter) 1209
Harry B. Lamason (mason) 1210
John Boltz (shoemaker) 1211
Robert B. George (tinner) 1212
R. C. Renneker (baker) 1213
Miss Virginia Penrose 1215
Mrs. Emma H. Foster (teacher) 1219
Glenn S. Warner (athletic director) 1222
Re discipline 1226
Work of Supt. Friedman 1233
August Kensler (^quartermaster) 1238
Claude M. Staufter (band master) 1241
Dr. Moses Friedman (superintendent) 1246
Re relations with principal teacher 1248
Discipline and work of disciplinarian 1250
Julia Hardin 1251
Article in Public Ledger 1258
Athletic fund 1261
Industrial training 126^
Farm produce 1273
Mattresses 1275
Montreville Yuda 1276
Departments discontinued 1277
Meals, etc 1278
Mies Lelah Bums (teacher) 1280
Miss Adelaide B. Reichel (teacher) 1285
S. J. Nori (chief clerk) 1292
August Kensler (quartermaster) 1325
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 6, 1914.
Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs,
Carlisle, Pa.
The joint commission met in tlie Y. M. C. A. liall at the Carlisle
Indian School, Carlisle, Pa., at 4.30 o'clock p. m.
Present: Senators Robinson (chairman) and Lane and Represent-
atives Stephens and Carter.
The Chairman. The Joint Commission of Congress to Investigate
Indian Affairs visits the Carlisle Institute for the purpose of inspect-
ing the same and making an investigation of the conditions prevail-
ing at the institute.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. ROSA B. LA FLESCHE.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. What is your name ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Rosa B. La Flesche.
The Chairman. Are you employed in the Carlisle Institute?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. In wdiat capacity are you employed i
Mrs. La Flesche. My title is manager of the outing department.
The Chairman. How long have you been connected with the
institute ?
Mrs. La Flesche. This time I have been here nearh^ two years.
• The Chairman. Were you formerly employed here ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes.
The Chairman. How long ago and for what length of time ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Why, I came here in 1889, and was a student
for one year. I then graduated and then took a position and was here
12 years.
The Chairman. Where was your home before you entered the
Carlisle Institute ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Michigan.
The Chairman. What is the general character of the duties you
perform, Mrs. La Flesche ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Why, principally clerical work and directing the
outing — pupils going out and commg in, and looking after them while
they are out.
The Chairman. Do you live here at the institute?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How long have you lived here ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Nearly two years.
The Chairman. Are you familiar udth the conditions in the school ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Why, so far as my department is concerned.
965
966 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The CHAiiniAX. Have you observed the progress and conditions
that obtain in the school generally ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir.
The CiiAiRMAX. The state of discipline among the pupils?
Mrs. La Flesche. It is better now than when I first came here,
although it is lax yet.
The Chairmax. How long is it since it began to improve ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Well, this fall.
The Chairmax. What do you mean by "lax" ? Describe it?
Mts. La Flesche. Well, the pupils seem to have no regard for the
orders that are issued, and, of course, that seems to be the cause for
much of the trouble.
The Chairman. You know Supt. Friedman, of course ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. In what estimation is he held by the pupils ?
Mrs. La Flesche. I think that is where the trouble is; they do
not regard him highly. They have no respect for him.
The Chairman. What evidence do you see of the fact that he is
not highly esteemed by the pupils ? What circumstances lead you
to that conclusion ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Why, there has been times when he has asked
them to do things that they positively refused.
The Chairman. Tell us something about those things.
IVIrs. La Flesche. At one time last summer there was a party of
girls, two or tlu'ee, I think, being sent home. They were sent from
the office building. The carriages were at the office, and a group of
girl friends followed them up to the office and were sitting out on the
campus, and they wanted to say good-by to their fr'iends, and Mr.
Friedman, of com-se, did not want them to speak to the girls that
were being expelled. At first he sent Miss Ridenour out to tell them
to go back to quarters, and the girls would not go. There must have
been about 8 or 10 girls there. So she went into the office and told
him, and he came out on the porch and asked them to go to the
quarters, and they defied him, and just stayed right there.
The Chairman. That is one incident. Do you know of other
instances when the pupils have openly shown a contempt of his
authority ?
Mrs. La Flesche. No; I don't know of any — that is, I don't
know of my own observation, but I have heard of other cases.
The Chairman. Here about the premises ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. From whom did you hear it ?
Mrs. La Flesche. From Mr. Denny, the assistant disciplinarian,
and Mr. McKean.
The Chairman. Who is the disciplinarian here?
Mrs. La Flesche. Mr. McKean.
The Chairmax. How long has he been here?
Mrs. La Flesche. I think he came last June — May or June — some
time last summer.
The Chairman. Do you know anything about the number of
female pu])ils who have been sent home during the last school year?
Mrs. La Flesche. I know there has boon several, but I do not
know \\\o. exact number.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 967
E. The Chairmax. Do you know the causes for which they were
expelled ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Not fully; they did not come under my de-
partment.
The Chairman. That did not come under your jurisdiction?
Mrs. La Flesche. Of course, I heard of those things; but I do
not know definitely about them.
The Chairman. How is the culinary department, the feeding
department, of the school run ? Under whose authority is that ?
Mi's. La Flesche. I really do not know. I think perhaps Mr.
Kensler has charge of that department.
The Chairman. Do you know anything about what kind and
quality of food is served the pupils ?
Mrs. La Flesche. I do not. I know the pupils are not satisfied*
The Chairman, Is the complaint general ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes.
The Chairman. What is the general nature of the complaint ?
Mrs. La Flesche. They do not get enough to eat.
The Chairman. Is there any complaint as to the quality ?
Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know about that.
The Chairman. I asked you awhile ago if you knew^ of any other
instances where the authority of the superintendent had been held
in open contempt by the pupils. Do 3'ou know anything about their
calling him opprobrious names or jeering at him?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, I do. I know that he passed by the boys'
quarters one evening, and the boys were supposed to be in bed and
all quiet, and all of a sudden there was quite a racket, noise, and
hollering, and I heard that they threw old shoes at liim — sticks and
things the}^ could get hold of.
The Chairman. Do you know if they called him any names ?
Mrs. La Flesche. No.
The Chairman. Did he know it ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes; he knew it.
The Chairman. What was done about it ?
Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know. Mr. McKean and Mr. Dickey
were in their cottage. They lived in that small cottage. The lights
were out and boys supposed to be asleep, and they heard this racket,
and they jumped up and went out and met Mr. Friedman, and he
told them they had better look after their boys. I do not know
what was done in regard to that.
The Chairman. Do you know whether domestic science is taught
in the school, or anything pertaining to housekeeping ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Not that I know of, no.
The Chairman. Do you know what effort is made to instruct the
male pupils in farming or dairying or kindred occupations ?
Mrs. La Flesche. The outing department is supposed to give the
boys experience on the farm and the girls experience in housework.
The Chairman. That is, instead of giving the instruction in house-
keeping to the girls and in agriculture to the boys here in the school,
they are sent out to receive that instruction ?
Mr. La Flesche. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know whether that is in fact given them,
and how many of thorn receive that kind of instruction ?
968 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
^1t. La Flesche. Why, I kiiow they go out and work on the farm
and work in the homes, and in some cases the idea for which the outing
department was started is carried out. Again, there are other cases
where they get the boys and girls; that is, the farmers and people
get the boys and girls for the work they can get out of them.
The Chairman. They hire out both boys and girls to farmers ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir; the boys to farmers, and there axe
only a few farm homes for the girls.
The Chairman. Are they supposed to receive salaries or pay for
their work ?
Mr. La Flesche. They do.
The Chaikmax. What is done with the income fi'oni that source ?
Mrs. La Flesche. We have certain rules that govern that, and half
of their wages are to come here to the bank and to be saved for them
until their period of enrollment expires, and then the other half they
are allowed to spend.
The Chairman. Do you know how man}" boys were hired out to
the farmers last year, during the last school year?
Mrs. La Flesche. I can not give you the exact number.
The Chairman. Do you know approximately ?
Mrs. La Flesche, Yes; we have something over 500 boys and girls
together.
The Chairman. How long are they permitted or required to remain
out on the farm ?
Mrs. La Flesche. We have an outing party in April, and those
boys and girls usually stay out until the last of August. Then they
come in and begin school the 1st of September, except those boys and
girls wishing to remain out and attend school in the country.
The Chairman. Do they attend the public schools ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What is the average wage that the boys receive ?
Mrs. La Flesche. The boys get from S12 to $15 average, and the
girls about $8.
The Chairman. You mean a month ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir. That includes board and washing.
The Chairman. Do they get any salary when they attend the pub-
lic schools ?
Mrs. La Flesche. No, sir.
The Chairman. How are they clothed ? Are they clothed by
this institution?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes; they just work for their board when they
are out in the wintertime.
The Chairman. Do you know of many pupils in this school who
have been taken from places where they have had advantages of
homes before they came to this school ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Do I know
The Chairman, Do you know how many pupils were in the pub-
lic schools where they had the advantages of homes before they came
here?
Mi-s. La Flesche. I should think about one-half to three-fourths
of the pupils who are here have the advantage of public schools. Of
course, I may be wrong about that, but a great many of them have.
The Chairman. Tliat is your estimate?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes.
CARLISLE INDL\N SCHOOL. 969
The Chairman When they go on the ouiiiifj what arrangement
is made about the pupils" raih'oad fare ?
Airs. La Flesche. The patrons pay tlieir fare out to their country
home, and then the pupils pay their way back. The fare seldom
goes over $4. We have several homes where it takes $4.23 for rail-
road fare.
The Chairman. Now, Mrs. La Flesche, I would like for you to
make a general statement as to your observation of the conditions
here, and set forth any facts that you think ought to be called to the
attention of this commission, if you please, without restraint.
Mrs. La Flesche. One thing especially that I have felt w^as deplor-
able in my department was this fact, that Mr. Friedman has always
pressed me — and, I think, likewise pressed Mrs. Denny, when she had
charge of the outing department — to put a great many pupils out.
That seems to be his special desire, to make the number large regard-
less of the kind of homes or the quality of students we send out.
The idea of the outing, as originated by Gen. Pratt, was to teach the
Indian boy and girl how to live and come in contact with white people
in their own homes, how to learn the economical ways of housekeep-
ing, fanning, etc. That was the idea, to place them not as servants,
but sort of helpers, getting w^ages for what they did, and to receive
help by the patrons by their association. That was the original idea
of the outing.
That principle has been lost, it seems to me. When I was here as
a student I went out. I was out two different summers, and at both
times I was in good homes, and I gathered a great deal; I gained a
great deal from my experience. I find that in many cases— of
course, the boys do not talk to me as much as the girls, but the girls
will tell me about their outing homes, and they tell me where they
have been benefited, and others tell me where they have not been.
My idea of the outing would be this, to place the pupils in well-
selected homes, and improve the quality of the pupils — make it a
privilege to go out, rather than send any boy or girl in order to swell
the numbers.
The Chairman. The object of the outing is. of course, as you have
said, or should be, to give the pupils the advantage of training in
good homes ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes.
The Chairman. And you think that class of work can only reach
the highest degree of success by carefully selecting the homes to
which the pupils are sent and then also carefully selecting the pupils,
in order that the advantages may properly be availed oi i
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. I know there were times last summer
when Mr. Friedman said to me, "Put them out ; put them out." He
kept on pushing me to put them out. And there were cases where
pupils that I would not have in my own house tliat we had to send
out in order to make the numbers that he wanted.
The Chairman. If I understand you correctly, the only idea that
seems to prevail among the present management is to put out as
many stuclents as possible in order that tlie income from that source
may be increased, largely losing sight of the benefits to the pujnls,
which was the original purpose of the outing work {
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes.
970 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. Do you know whether there is much drinking
among the pupils ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Very much.
. The Chairman. What observation have you made of that ?
Mrs. La Flesche. We had a great deal of trouble out in the coun-
try. Of course, the lax discipline here, I feel, is the cause of much of
our trouble in the country. Mr. Dickey is the outing agent. He
visits the homes of the boys and he spent most of his time — instead
of encouraging them to work, etc., he spent most of his time after
runaways and taking care of the drunks, and there was a great deal
of drinking here last winter, more than there has been this wdnter.
The Chairman. Is liquor sold in this town legally?
Mrs. La Flesche. I suppose so.
The Chairman. Is it, Mr. Rupley ?
Congi-essman Rupley. Yes; under a high-license law. It is sold
simply in hotels.
The Chairman. Have you any information as to how this liquor
is procured by the Indian pupils ?
Mrs. La Flesche. No; I do not know. I have heard they can get
it any time they want it.
The Chairman. Have you seen the Indians drunk about the school
grounds ?
IMrs. La Flesche. Yes.
The Chairman. To what extent ?
]\Irs. La Flesche. I happened to be passing — I heard them yelling
around, and then I was passing out the gate one evening and I met
a couple of the boys drunk. And last winter, down on the skating
pond, and several times when they had their receptions here in the
gymnasium I smeUed liquor on some of the boys.
Senator Lane. Do any of the girls drink?
Mrs. La Flesche. Not that I know of.
The Chairman. What is the state of discipline among the girls,
Mrs. La Flesche; the general state of it?
Mrs. La Flesche. Why, from aU I can gather they are very hard
to control. Last year there was very lax discipline, but this year
they seem to have a better hold of it than they had last year.
The Chairman. What is the state of feehng of the young lady
pupils and the girls in the school toward the superintendent ?
Mrs. La Flesche. They have no respect for him.
The Chairman. What evidence have you of that fact?
Mrs. La Flesche. Just their general attitude.
The Chairman. Do they hold him in contempt?
Senator Lane. And why ?
Mrs. La Flesche. I don't know why. I don't know really — I do
not talk to the children about those things.
Senator IjANE. From your observation, why?
Mrs. La Flesche. It seems as though he is not fatherly. He does
not seem to care anything for the children. That seems to be the
general feeling.
Representative Stephens. You say there is better discipline now
than last fall ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. "What do you attribute that to ?
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 971
Mrs. La Flesciie. Well, last year when I first came here there was —
the disciplmarian and matron at that time were not in harmony ^vith
the superintendent, and, of course, they were pulling and hauling
both ways.
The Chairman. Do they complain of instances of injustice upon
the part of the superintendents
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes.
The Chairman. Can you state some of the instances ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes; there are individual cases where he seems
to have been unjust. I do not know as a whole that I could state
anything, but there are individual cases where he has not dealt fairly
with them, and of course that has spread around among the pupils.
They all feel it.
The Chairman. They take that view of it, do they, that he has been
unjust?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes; I think perhaps you could get a better
idea of this by speaking to the children about that. They know more
about it.
The Chairman. How about the employees ? Have there been com-
plaints about injustice to them on the part of the superintendent —
that is, against the supermtendent ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Why, of course, he has his favorites. I do not
know whether they complam about any unjust treatment or not.
I know they do not cooperate with him; that is, a great many of them
do not, anci they have no respect for him. There are a certain few
that do.
The Chairman. Do 3'ou know of any instances where pupils of this
school have been confined in the county j ail recently ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How many ?
]\Irs. La Flesche. There were one or two girls, I think, and several
boys.
The Chairman. Do you know upon whose complaint they were
Confined i
Mrs. La Flesche. I do not.
The Chairman. Who are they ?
Mrs. La Flesche. One girl by the name of ; I do^not re-
member her fh'st name.
The Chairman. What was the charge against her i
Mrs. La Flesche. Immorality, I think.
Senator Lane. How old a girl is she?
Mrs. La Flesche. I would say about 17 years old.
The Chairman. Do you know how long she was conlined in jaiH
Mrs. La Flesche. \o; I do not. I think there was another one.
She is a younger girl, and was sent to — not (ih'n Mills, but some
place up there.
The Chairman. What is tli(> condition in the school with reference
to morality among the pupils, Mrs. La Flesche ?
Mrs. La Flesche. So far as 1 know now, it is bett( r than last year.
The Chairman. What was it last year S (Jood or hiul (
Mrs. La Flesche. Pretty bad, I think.
The Chairman. Was there general (•om|)laint h( re :i])()ut the con-
dition in that particular S
972 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mrs. La Flesche. No— —
The Chairman. General discussion ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Well, I did not hear very much about that.
The Chairman. When did the improvement in the morals be^-in?
When did you first observe it ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Last fall, when they had their change of disci-
plmarians and matrons, I think then Mr. Friedman began to coop-
erate with his disciplinarians and matron. Before that there was no
cooperation at all. There was open warfare
Senator Lane. Who was the matron formerly?
Mrs. La Flesche. Miss Jennie Gaither; it is now Miss Ridenour.
Senator Lane, Wliere is Miss Gaither now ?
Mrs. I^A Flesche. Down at Phoenix, Ariz.
The Chairman. Who was disciplinarian last year?
Mrs. La Flesche. Mr. Henderson and Mr. Rudy. Mr. Rudy lives
in town, and Mr. Henderson lives at Cherokee, N. C.
Senator Lane. Now, these girls that were in jail. How did they
come to be sent to jail? Was tliat by request of the superintendent
here, or complaint from the outside^ ?
Mrs. La Flesche. I don't know just how. It must have come
from here, because there was no complaint from outside.
Senator Lane. In cases of immorality among girls, can you not
take care of them here instead of sending them to jail?
Mrs. La Flesche. Why, I sliould think so. That does not come
under my department.
Senator I^^ane. Or the institution — in a general way, you would
know, wouldn't you ?
Mrs. La Flesche. I have heard something about it, but I do not
know definitely about those things. Those meetings and those
doings were done by Miss Ridenour, and Mr. Friedman, and Mr.
Stauffer, and Mr. Denny, and Mr. McKean, and Mr. Kensler. Those
are tlie faculty, and they had meetings there quite often in Mr.
Friedman's office, and they would conduct the affairs.
Senator Lane. Are these what they call incorrigible girls, hard to
manage, head strong, willful chikh'en ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Why, I do not know.
Senat/or Lane. Do you know them at all personally?
Mrs. TvA Flesche. I just know of them. I do not know them
personally.
Senator Lane. How many girls are there here?
Mrs. liA Flesche. There must be sometliing like 265 or 270. I
deal principally with those that are going out in tlie country and
coming back.
Senator Lane. Those girls that you handle outside, how do you
find thos(^ ? Are they good girls ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes.
Senator Lane. Are they amenable to advice and kind treatment?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir; 1 think so: the m;ijority of them are.
There are girls — there were a nun)ber })(Mha])s that were jjlaced out
that should not have gone, ])ecause they were not good girls: they
were ineorrii2,ible, and they sliould have been kept here.
Senator Lane. Sending them out that way, an incoiTigi)>lc girl is
liable to get into trouble, is slie ■;
Mrs. La FLES("ni:. Yes.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 973
Senator Lane. That is what they say?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir; and that is what I protested agahist,
but it did not make any difference. The result of that was we had
8 or 10 cases of runaways, girls rujining away from their good homes,
and they were that class of girls. Our better girls do not do anything
like that.
Senator Lane. Wliat became of them afterwards?
Mrs. La Flesche. They returned, most of them, and v/ere brought
back here to the school.
Senator Lane. And they are back in here now?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes.
Senator Lane. Do they behave themselves now since thev came
back ?
Mrs. La Flesche. So far as I know.
The Chairman. Mrs. La Flesche, is there a state among the pupils
here bordering on insurrection ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. In 3'our opinion, do you ihluk it is liable to
become flagrant?
Mrs. La Flesche. I certainly do.
The Chairman. What do you tliink is the remedy for it. if you
have one ?
Mrs. La Flesche. The only remedy now is to remove the superin-
tendent. It has gone too far.
The Chairman. Yon think it is l)C}-ond his ])ower to restore
discipline?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes; he jiever in the wide work! couJd get their
confidence.
The Chairman. Is he lacking then in the confidence and respect
of the pupils generally ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. What do you mean by "insurrecticn." Senator?
Defying ivuthority?
The Chairman. Yes; open rel'ellion.
Keprcsentetiv^e Stephens. These girls you spoke f f as being sent
home at the time this came under your personal observation, did
they defy him at that time, and if so, what did he do when they
defied him ?
Mrs. La Flesche. I really do not know the real cause for sending
them home.
Representative Stephens. Y'ou do not knov/ the cause?
Mrs. La Flesche. No; I do not know. I do not wish to state
that, becairse I might not get it straight.
Representative Stephens. What did he request them to do that
they refused to do ?
Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know.
Senator Lane. Mrs. La Flesche said that these were girls that were
going to see these other girls off, and he ordered them to quarters
and they refused to go.
Representative Stephens. What did he do to those girls then?
■ Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know what he did. Thoy just stayed
there on the campus. I do not laiow whether they were disciplined
after that or not.
974 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Senator Lane. He has the powci" and authority to see that they
do go to quarters ?
Mrs, La Flesche. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Is he merely good natured and careless, or — in that
case how was it ?
Mrs. La Flesche. He seems to lack— he lacks something; I don't
know what it is.
Senator Lane. Backbone?
Mrs. La Flesche. He lacks the power to control. He just, does
not have it.
Representative Carter, Executive abihty; is that it?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes; he does not have it. When I was a
student here we would no more think of defying Gen. Pratt — when
Gen. Pratt would tell us to do something we would go and do it in a
hurry. But with Mr. Friedman, not any of them seem to care any-
thing about him. They just seem to laugh in his face and walk on.
The Chairman. Do they ridicule him?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you know of their getting u]> a petition and
sending it to Congressman Rupley ?
Mrs. La Flesche. I know — that is, I heard of it.
The Chairman. That is one evidence of insubordination and dis-
satisfaction that you regard as general throughout the school?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes.
The Chairman. I think that is all.
Representative Carter. I want to ask a few ciuestions.
Representative Stephens. I want to ask a question or two. Have
any of them complained that they did not get their money when they
came in ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes.
Representative Stephens. How many?
Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know, but they find many complaints.
Representative Stephens. You have no authority to investigate or
say anything about it, but you know they have made those com-
plaints ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. The money comes in from the country
and I turn it over to Mr. Miller, and further than that 1 have not any
control over it.
Representative Stephens. Have you ever traced U]) any of those
individual cases where the money coming in from the country and
through you was turned in here, to know whether the student did get
any of it or not ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. I looked up one case — John Jackson or
Jacob Jackson. He is a boy that lived in my home in Michigan. He
wrote to me asking about his money, so I went to Mr. Miller and
asked why John could not get his money. He said it was on account
of some ruling of the Indian Department in regard to individual
Indian moneys; that only a certain amount could be allowed during
the year.
Representative Stephens. How much was due him, if yon know?
Mrs. ]jA Flesche. I do not rememl)er just exactly, but the figures
can be obtained
Representative Stephens. Th(\v kee}) books, do they?
Mrs. La Flesche. ^'es.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL, 975
Representative Stephens. Do you keep any check on your work
to know how much is turned over to them ?
Mrs. La Flesghe. Yes.
Representative Stephens. Can you look that up ?
Mrs. La Flesghe. Yes.
Representative Stephens. When was that?
Mrs. La Flesghe. When did the boy write?
Representative Stephens. Yes; that boy turned in the money to
you and failed to get it.
Mrs. La Flesghe. The boy went home last August or September.
He spent the summer out in the country, and each month the man
he was working for sent me his wages, and it was turned in to the
bank, to Mr. Miller. Then after that he went to his home, and about
a month ago he wrote me asking for the money, and I went to Mr,
Miller to find out, and that was what I got.
The Chairman. Were any of the children disciplined for making
complaints against the management here ?
Mrs. La Flesghe. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How many, and what was done ^\'ith them?
Mrs. La Flesghe. Why, one girl was sent home.
The Chairman, Who was she ?
Mrs. La Flesghe. .
The Chairman. Do you know where she is from?
Mrs. La Flesghe. She is from Wisconsin, I think. And I heard
that Gus Welch was considered a leader among the boys. I do not
know that he was sent home, but he went home anyway.
Representative Charter. Gus is not here now?
Mrs. La Flesghe. No; I think you can get him, Mr. Carter.
Representative Carter. Mrs. La Flesche, you stated that the rail-
road fare for the outing students was paid by the people who took
them into their homes, and the students paid their own fare when
they returned ?
Mi-s. La Flesghe. Yes.
Representative Carter. Is that always true?
Mrs. La Flesghe. Yes.
Rei^resentative Carter. Is it not a fact that funds are sometimes
used from the ap])ro]iriation for the school for tliat purpose ?
Mrs. La Flesghe. Not that I know of.
Re])resentativp Carter. Now, we make an apj)ro])riation every
year by Congi-oss for that purpose.
Mrs. La Flesghe. For the outing ?
Re])resentative Carter. Taking children to and from the outings
to and from liomes on the outing sAstem.
Mrs. I^a Flesghe. I do not know an\'thing about it.
Re})resentative Carter. I wanted to ask you how many girls you
said were jicre ?
Mrs. La Flesghe. I think about 205 or 270.
Re]>resentative Carter. How many boys ?
Mi-s. La Flesche. I do not know
Rejuesentative Carter. Do you know what the enrollment was ?
Mrs. l^A Flesghe (continuhig). I think, between 700 and SOO.
Re])resentative Carter. What was the enridhuent last year ? Do
you know ?
Mrs. La Flesghe. I do not know.
976 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Representative Carter. But you know the average, don't you?
Mrs. La Flesche. No.
Representative Carter. Or the per capita cost ?
Mrs. La Flesche. No; I do not know those things. Mr. Meyer
would be able to tell you that.
Representative Carter. Now, Mrs. La Flesche, I think you can
give us a little clearer statement as to the cause of this bad discipline
here if you would refresh your memory. There must bo some direct
cause for it outside of the fact that the superintendent has not
executive ability.
Mrs. La Flesche. The children do not like him.
Representative Carter. They do not respect him ?
Mrs. La Flesche. No; they do not like him; they do not respect
him.
Representative Carter. Do you know why they do not respect
him ?
Mrs. La Flesche. I think one of the things is that he misrepresents
things — • —
Representative Carter. Those are the things we want to know.
Mrs. La Flesche. He misrepresents things.
Representative Stephens, miat do you mean by that — that he
misrepresents tilings ?
Mrs. La Flesche. For instance, we received a boy from the West,
James Holy Eagle or Holy Elk. He is a young man about 17 of 18
years old and a good musician. He came hero last fall and entered
the band and orchestra. He is one of the leaders now. Well, in the
papers frequently you read where James Holy Eagle, a pure-blood
Indian, just arrived from the West, wa-; placc-d in the band, and was
an expert musician, or something like that, and the inference is that
he received that during his short stay here. That is the idea — to give
out a good sounding article.
Senator Lane. Boosting the school ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes; and it is that way in everything.
Representative Carter. Well, iVIrs. La Flesche, are there any rea-
sons why they should not respect Air. or Mrs. Friedman? We want
you to be perfectly plain with us.
Mi's. La Flesche. I do not think— he is not a fatherly, you know.
They go to him, for instance —there is a time when a child feels that
they like to have a talk with a mother or father, and perhaps a boy
will go to him and ask him something, and he will say "Go to jVIrs.
La Flesche,'' or "Go to Mr. Meyer." They will come to us, and, of
course, we can not decide. There are certain things that are not in
oi;r power to clecide; and tJiey feel hurt because he does not come
closer to them.
Representative Carter. Is his coniluct bad in anyway before them i
Mrs. La Flesche. I do not think
Representative Carter. Has he any bad habits?
Mrs. La Flesche. I do not think that he has a good inliuence, but
not any bad habits that I know of. I could not say that he was bad.
Represent ative Carter. He has not any bad habits ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Not that I know of.
Representative Carter. Have you ever had any difference with
Mr. l^ricdman ?
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 977
Mrs. La Flesche. Xo; I have never had.
Representative Carter. There is no animosity?
Mrs. La Flesche. Nothing at all. So far as I am concerned, he is
friendly with me. I have notliing against him.
Representative Carter. Is he addicted to the use of whisky?
Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know that.
Representative Carter. You do not know whether he has any
habits of that character at all?
Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know anything about it
vSenator Lane. What you mean is that he is not responsive to
cliildren ?
I^Irs. La Flesche. Yes; he just turns them over to somebody else.
Representative Carter. Do you consider anybody else responsible
for the bad discipline here except Mr. Friedman ?
Mrs. La Flesche. No; I do not.
Representative Carter. There are no other influences in the
school ?
Mrs. La Flesche. I do not know of any, Mr. Carter.
Representative Carter. Indian children, as a rule, are not very
difficult to control, are they ?
Mrs. La Flesche. No.
Representative Carter. Haven't you always found tlieni much
more easy to control than white children ?
Mrs. La Flesche. Yes. I feel certain that if we had a head here
that would take an interest in the pupils, that they could care for
and respect, I think there would be no trouble.
Representative Carter. Who can tell us about the girls ?
Mrs. La Flesche. I should think. Miss Ridenour.
Representative Carter. I mean the girls you spoke of as having
been sent home for some cause.
Mrs. La Flesche. ]Miss Ridenour ought to be the one to tell. She
knows those.
The Chairman. We thank you very much, Mrs. La Flesche.
(Thereupon, at 5.30 o'clock p. m., a recess was taken until 6.15
o'clock p. m.)
AFTER recess.
At the expu'ation of the recess the commission reassembled.
The Chairman. A number of young men students in the school
are present, and I am informed by Inspector Linnen that they rep-
resent the male pupils in the school.
Inspector Linnen. Gentlemen of the committee, I have to state
that since I came here on this mvestigation a large number of the
student body, both boys and gu'ls, have requested of me permission
to hold meetings, at which time they would select members of their
student body who would be representative of them to ajrpear before
me or before your commission to state their grievances. I gave them
permission to appoint such a committee, and the boys are now here
present, with one exception. They have stated that the matters
which they desire to complain of are, fu"st, laxity of discij)line; sec-
ond, unjust expulsion of students without reason and the withholding
of some that should be expelled; third, misrepresentation of the
school to the public and to the authorities in Washington; fourth,
35601— PT 11—14 2
978 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
insanitary conditions in the school; fifth, insufficient quantity and
quality of food; and, sixth, unjust punishment.
(All the witnesses present were thereupon duly sworn b}' the
chairman.)
TESTIMONY OF HIRAM CHASE.
Mr. Chase. May I have notes ?
The Chairman. You may proceed and make your statement.
Mr. Chase. Mr. Friedman has expelled many students
The Chairman. One moment. A number of young gentlemen are
present here with you, and I desire to know whether you purport to
represent the student body in the Carlisle Institute.
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And if so, upon what authority you appear before
the commission; what authority from the student body?
Mr, Chase. At a meeting of the male students of this institution
they appointed a committee. The first time a committee of four
was appointed, but after an interview with Mr. Linnen they decided
to have eight at least, and we called another meeting, and there was
eight, the committee which is here now, with the exception of one
member.
The Chairman. Now you may proceed and submit the matters of
which complaint is made by the student body which you represent,
and all the facts and circumstances in connection with it tliat are
within your knowledge.
Mr. Chase. Mr. Friedman has expelled a great number of students
from this institution. Many have been expelled with, just cause,
while there have been others who have not had a just cause for which
to be expelled. I have the names of about 26 students who have been
expelled since last March. The greatest cause for expelling these
students, those that deserved it, is that boys and girls have met at
the various times. And the student body as a whole, they wish to
have such students expelled from the school. We do not want to
have such students as that. They held meetings with the girls when
that should not be.
On the other hand, there have been a great number of students who
have been expelled unjustly. For instance, there is Montreville Yuda.
At one time ne was very highly thought of by Mr. Friedman. Mr.
Friedman thought Yuda was all right.
That was the time they had a play here, entitled ''The Captain of
Plymouth," and Mr. Yuda had the chief part in this play. He was
a boy — I can say that I believe he is the smartest boy I have seen
from this school — that is, that has not went any further in the out-
side schools than this school. He was very higlily thought of by Mr.
Friedman. He is a boy of influence, and stood for the right. A
few of the disciplinarians and IMi*. Dietz, they started to bring charges
against Montreville that he had been spending nights — -they brought
charges against Yuda being at town and being at the school only
about once a week. When Yuda found out about this he went to
Mr. Friedman — he went to the disciplinarian and asked the disci-
plinarian if the charges had been made. The disciplinarian said yes,
but why punish a boy when he is not guilty ? Yuda, he wanted these
charges to be proven, and he went to Mr. Friedman and he asked him.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 979
He said, "Do you make these charges against me?" Mr. Friedman
said, "Yes, sir.'' He said, "You prove them." He said, "We don't
need to prove them; we know it. You don't have to prove them."
Yuda said, "You let me prove it." Mr. Friedman said, "No, you
don't need to prove that." Yuda said to him, "What kind of justice
do you call that? Are you going to stand by the disciplinarians
when they bring cases to you that way and want to punish me for
unjust causes?" And he said, "Yes; I \vall stand by my disci-
plinarians to the letter 'T,' whether they are right or wrong."
This statement came from Montrc^ville Yuda. Montreville told
him, "You take my name off the roll." He said, "No, sir; I will not
do any such thing, but I \\i\\ consider you later."
Yuda stayed around here a couple of days, and I think he went to
Washington to see some one. I did not find out who it was. When
he came back to Carlisle he came back to the grounds. In the mean-
time Mr. Friedman had heard about this.
The Chairman. About what ?
Mr. Chase. About Montreville going to Washington, and he gave
lum two or three hours to get off the grounds. He said, ''You leave
the school and leave the to^\^l, and not come back."
The Chairman. What are the facts \\-ith reference to the charges
against Yuda? Do you know what the facts are? Was he absent
from the school the greater part of the time?
Mr. Chase. They claimed that he stayed here about one night of
the week.
The Chairman. What are the facts?
Mr. Chase. It is not true; he stayed here more than that.
The Chairman. Was he away from liome any considerable time ?
Mr. Chase. Not a great part. I suppose he was away once or
t\\ace in a week probably.
The Chairman. What was he doing away, if you know?
Mr. Chase. I am sure I do,n't know.
Senator Lane. Is that against the rules?
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. He had broken the rules then ?
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right. Are there any other cases of expulsion
of pupils which the body which you represent feel were wrongful ?
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. Louis Schweigman was exi)elled on January 9
of this year. He returned to school this fall and started to work for
Mr. Whitwell, the princi])al teacher. He worked in the office a con-
siderable time, and Mr. Whitwell said he is one of the l^est boys he
had v.-ork in his office. Pie worked there a good deal of the time,
and finally Mr. Friedman wrote a letter to Mr. McKean and said, ''I
want you to take Louis Schweigman out of Mr. Whitwell's office."
Representative Carter. Who is Mr. ^Vhitwell, and who is Mr.
McKean ?
Mr. Chase. ]VIr. McKean is head disciplinarian, and Mr. Whitwell
is the principal teacher. He had Louis Schweigman removed from
the principal teacher's office to work half a day. He did, and that
did not suit Mr. Friedman, so he had him taken out the wliole day,
and Louis was taking sign painting and he had to study hard to get it.
Finally they claimed that he was loafing, and I knOw for a fact that
this boy was studying this sign painting. He had a book that he got
980 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
from the iiisiiudor in painting, Mr. Cams, and he was studying this^
and they cdaimed that he was a loafer.
They threatened to expel him, so he wrote to Washington, and they
arranged to s^tid him home. He had A\Titten to his father for money,
so Mr. ]\IcKean got him ready, and they taken him to Harrisburg.
He got on the train at Harrisburg, and as soon as the train started he
got off on the other side — or he did not go very far — and he got work
there. He worked for a little wliile and he came down to Grayson;
that is down here about 6 miles, and he is working for a man he had
worked there for before while under the school. We think that is
very unjust on the part of Mr. Friedman to make that boy sacrifice
what might be his life's work.
Senator Lane. Where is his home?
Mr. Chase. South Dakota.
The Chairman. What are the personal habits of Yuda and
Schweigman ?
Mr. Chase. Well, personal habits — there is notlimg disgraceful in
theii' habits that I know of. I do not think either of them drink,
but I know Yuda smokes, and hke that.
The Chairman. How old is Yuda?
Mr. Chase. I could not say how old he is; probably 22 or 23.
The Chairman. How old is Schweigman ?
Mr. Chase. About 20.
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Mr. Chase. Mr. Schweigman came back here, intending to learn
something about his trade, and at the same time he might have
planned that for his life's work, to be a painter, or sometliing, be-
cause I know he was not very far advanced in books. To send him
away that way, it might mean that he would give it up or change the
boy's whole life.
I have another one. Harrison Smith
Senator Lane. Where is he from ?
Mr. Chase. From West De Pere, Wis. Harrison Smith went
home when the home party went last year — the 1913 home party.
And in this hall Mr. Friedman called the boys that were going home
together to give them a httle talk before they left the institution.
He got them up here and got to talking to them, and he says, ''Harri-
son Smith," he says, "jMr. Smith, you have been disloyal to tliis
school. Now you are going home. I don't care what becomes of
you. I don't care even to say good-bye to you. You may be
excused." And this boy is a graduate, and is one of the most influ-
ential boys in our Y. M. C. A., and is one of the most thought of boys.
The Chairman. Did you hear him when he said that?
Mr. Chase. No, sir.
The Chairman. How did you know he said it?
Mr. Chase. I heard several of the boys that were in the room.
The Chairman. Is there any one here ?
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. So Harrison Smith took his hat and he left
the room. It certainl}' must be he was a good boy, or else Mr.
Friedman was doing wrong in giving a diploma to a boy that did
not deserve it.
The Chairman. Are there other cases of wrongful expidsion ?
Mr. Chase. Philip Cornelius; he is an Oneida from Wisconsin,
lie wont to Chambersl)urg, Pa., under the outing system, am] worked
CARLISLE INDL\X SCHOOL. 981
as a carpenter there. His time was up aiul ho wanted to got a
release. Now, he told mo this — Philip told mo. 1 wont home with
him on the 2oth of June last. I went home last summer and I rode
with him to Chicago. He told me that he went to Chambersburg
and was working as a carpenter, and he came back here and wanted
to get his release and go back to Chambersburg and make his own
livelihood. Now, as it is, Mr. Friedman does not want them to do
that. He don't want them to be in this part of this country unless
they are under the school rules. Mr. Friedman called him up to
the office. They had a little talk and they put him in the guard-
house. He was also a leader in our Y. M. C. A. and the captain of
Troop C, and one of the best boys in our quarters.
The Chairman. Do you know why he was put in the guardhouse ?
Why did they claim he was put in the guardhouse '?
Mr. Chase. As I understand, he was going to go back on his own
hook, going back to Chambersburg, and they just kept him in the
guardhouse for three or four days, and then shipped him home — let
him go home.
— • is a young lady. I don't know whether to leave
that to the women or not.
The Chairman. If you know anything about it you can state it.
Mr. Chase. January 14, 1914, ; — was expelled. Some-
time ago one of the societies gave a reception. She did not go. I
am not sure whether she went or not, but the next day the matron
she complained about being tired to the girls, and she had been
going around the rooms and jerking the girls out of bed, and one
thing and another. They go to sleep with the other girls, of coui-se,
when they are alone. It is natural for the girls to be afraid. So
she shook up the girls. — — was an officer in one of the
troops. She stepped out of the troop, and she said, "Miss Ridenour,
if you were in the room where you belong you would not be tired."
Miss Ridenour said, ''Well, there is some officers here that are not
fit to be officers." So she stepped into ranks, and later on
she went back to her place as an officer.
In the meantime, on New Year's Day, I think it was, the girls
wanted to go skating. They have been rather strict about letting
the boys and girls talk to each other. The girls wanted to go skating,
and it seemed as though — was a kind of leader, and they wantod
to get up a petition to see whether they could go skating. I am not
sure whether they went or not; I was not here at the time.
Finally one morning she was going to the schoolroom, on January
14. She was going to school with the girls, and she saw the matron
standing at the bottom of the stairs. The matron said, " , I
want to see you. " She said, " I have waited long enough, , for
an apology. '" She wanted the girl to apologize to lier for her actions.
■ — said she would not apologize. She said, " I have waited long
enough for this apology, and Mr. Friedman and I have decided to
send you home. '' ' said, "All right. " So one of the matrons —
there is three matrons in the girls' quarters - one of the matrons
went up with — to pack her trunk, and stood at the door. When
she was ready they brought her downstairs and kept her in the office
and did not allow her to see anyone before she wen home. They
kept her in the office and ])ulled down the curtains, and would not
even let her look out.
982 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. What reason was assigned for sending her home ?
Mr. Chase. On the official reports that were made by the matron —
and, of course, she must have authority from the superintendent —
they had her registered, "Sent home as a graduate."
The Chairman. As a graduate ?
Mr. Chase. Graduated, and sent home. At this time she was going
to the business department. She was a graduate here of last year's
class. She was going to the business department and trying to learn
something so she could do something for herself in the world. The
business students took it up.
Two or three of the young men in there went to Mr. Friedman and
asked him w hy he sent home. Well, he told them some little
story, and he said, "Well, she is a graduate." If that applies to her
it will apply to more of them in there because the school rules are
that no one shall go to that business school unless they can pass the
senior exnminations.
Senator Lane. All you know about tliis case is hearsay, isn't it?
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir. One of the young men is here that took the
petition to Mr. Friedman.
The Chairman. I wish, Mr. Chase, when you make a statement of
matters that are within your personal knoAvledge and observation
you would say so, and when you are referring to matters that you
have no personal knowledge of, I wish you would mention that.
And it is l)est to let those v/ho have personal knowledge of matters to
testify to them, because you may be misinformed, you know.
Go ahead and make any further statement. You wish to testify
about the other complaints?
Mr. Chase. I want to say something else about this expulsion. I
know for a fact that Mr. Friedman has practically expelled these
students, and a great many of them who have been expelled have been
registered "home on leave," "failed to return," or "dropped."
Now, if they are expelled they ought to put it on there "expelled."
The Chairman. Do you mean to say that he makes a fraudulent
and false record?
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That is an important statement, Mr. Chase, and I
would like to know what specific proof you have of that statement.
What pupUs have been actually expelled and sent home from the
school that were marked on the record, by his or anyone else's
direction in the school, as havmg been dropped or faQed to return,
or anything of that sort, other than the mere statement ?
Mr. Chase. James Baker was expelled. On the report he is " home
on leave; failed to return." Bakei was expelled outright. He gave
him about three or four hours to get away from the grounds.
Senator Lane. How long ago was that ?
Mr. Chase. I forget how long that has been. It must have been
15 months; a year ago, at least.
Representative Stephens. Where was he from ?*
Mr. Chase. North Dakota.
The Chairman. Do you know what he was expelled for ?
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What was it ?
Mr. Chase. He had written to his a»ent for money, as I understand
it. Now, I am not certain about mis, but tliis is the story that
CARLISLE INDLA.N SCHOOL. 983
came to nie. He wrote to his agent for money, and his agent ignored
his letter, and he wrote a letter, which is businesslike. At the same
time it was imjradent. Tlie agent wrote to Mr. Friedman about this,
and Mr. Friedman called him «[:> there; and eTames, although he was
not n voter or anything, he believed in socialism.
Representative Siepiiens. How old was he?
Mr. Chase. I could not swear to his age; about 20, I suppose.
Tile Chairisiax. Go aheaci.
Mr. Chase-. He was expelled. He says, "We don't want any such
student as that here." So James got ready and he went home. He
had him marked, "Tune out; failed to return."
Philip Cornelius was exj^elled and the}^ had him marked, ''Time
out." Louis SchAveigman was marked "Dropped," although he was
practically expelled.
The Chairman. You are speaking about their being marked on
the record falsely or erroneously. What record do you refer to ?
Mr. Chase. Why, the quarterly reports that are made out in the
principal teacher's oflice; the reports that are sent from the quarters.
That is, Avhen anyone leaves or comes to this school a report is sent
from the quarters — girls' quarters, large boys', or small boys'.
The Chairman. Sent where ?
Mi. Chase. To the principal teacher's office. This report, ■ I
should think, would come from Friedman, telling whether they went
home or on leave or what.
The Chairman. Who keeps that record ?
!Mr. Chase. I do not know whether there is two of them or not, but
he is on that record.
The Chairman. WTio keeps it ?
Mr. Chase. Mr. Whitwell, the principal teacher.
Representative Carter. Who makes the record ?
Mr. Chase. The principal teacher, and he has two stenographers
there.
Representative Carter. Does he make the entry himself?
Mr. Chase. No, sir.
Representative Carter. Who makes the entry ?
Mr. Chase. I do not quite understand.
Representative Carter. You say the principal teacher gets the
report. Who does it come from ?
Mr. Chase. It comes from the quarters to him and then to Mr.
Friedman.
Representative Carter. From what quarters ?
Mr. Chase. Any quarters — large or small boys or girls.
Representative Carter. Who does make it out?
Mr. Chase. The disciphnarian.
Senator Lane. The report would naturally be the superintendent's.
It would not make any difference who made the entry.
The Chairman. If he specifically directed it to be done it would
make a difference, you know, as to the moral turpitude of it.
You do not know of your own knowledge of any circumstances in
wdiich the superintendent personally directed these false entries to
be made ?
Mr. Chase. Not personally.
Senator Lane. That report becomes an official matter of record
here ?
984 CARLISLE INDIAIST SCHOOL.
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. On the roster?
Mr. Chase. On the quarterlj reports. I am not sure whether
the quarterly report is sent to Washington or not. I know they make
out a reiDort which is called quarterly.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, it is sent to the Indian Bureau,
isn't it?
Senator Lane. It must be, yes.
Mr. Chase. Harrison Smith, June 16, 1913. He was officially re-
ported a graduate, but he is practically expelled, because Mr. Fried-
man said he did not care to say good by to him or anything; he just
sent him away.
Senator Lane. He had his diploma?
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir: Mr. Friedman signed his diploma.
The Chairman. He is the one that }-ou say was called into this
room and lectured by Mr. Friedman ?
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And told he had been disloyal to the school all
the way through ?
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And yet he permitted him to graduate i
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir.
I want to say something about Yuda. Yuda had gone to town
after Mr. Friedman told him to leave the town; this is the statement
which was made by Mr. Yuda. He told me this morning. He runs
a little store over here. He told me that when he was ex]>elled he
went home. His home is in New Jei"sey some j^lace, or New York
The Chairman. Mr. Yuda is going to be liere, and he can iDake
that statement. Is there anything further?
Mr. Chase. That is about all I have on ex])ulsion.
The Chairman. All right; go ahead on your next subject.
Mr. Chase. Expulsion is my subject. Each one has a subject.
The Chairman. Just a minute. How long have you been in the
school ?
Mr. Chase. I came here on the 15th of October, 1911.
The Chairman. Wliat class are you in now ?
Mr. Chase. Junior. I graduate with the class of 191.5.
The Chairman. Have you ever had any personal diflerence with
Supt. Friedman ?
Mr. Chase. No, sir.
The Chairman. Have you ever been disciplined for any alleged
misconduct since you have been in the school ?
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Was it serious ?
Mr. Chase. No, sir.
The Chairman. Have you any personal animosity toward Mr.
Friedman ?
Mr. Chase. I do not quite understand.
The Chairman. Have you any personal animosity toward Mr.
Friedman ? Any hatred of him ?
Mr. Chase. Not personally.
The Chairman. How does the student body regard Mr, Friedman,
as a whole ?
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 985
Mr. Chase. The student body as a whole don't think very much
of him. He is a man that is not true to his word.
The Chairman. Is that the way he is regarded ?
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir; by tlie students.
Tlie Chairman. Do you know anything about the discipUne
generally in the school on account of the laclv of respect for Mr.
Friedman ? Does that tend to create bad discipline in the school i
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Have you seen instances of insubordination
among the pupils displayed toward Mr. Friethnan (
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Will you tell us about when and what they were ?
Mr. Chase. One night he made an inspection of the large boys'
quarters. He said he came through to see how conditions were in
the rooms, but the boys seemed to think there was some other rea-
son, because that w^as the time about New Years, when the boys —
it seemed like they were on a strike. He came through, and he said
he wanted to see how the conditions were in the large boys' quar-
ters, and consequently somebody turned off the lights, and they
threw shoes at him, and one thing and another, and that is the way
it will be until something changes.
The Chairman. Is that feeling general among the pupils?
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir; among the boys especially. I don't know
about the girls. They jeer — they used to, and they do yet, but not
nearly as much.
The Chairman. What do they say?
Mr. Chase. "Who let him out?" and one thing and another like
that.
The Chairman. Do they call him any names ?
Mr. Chase. I could not say any names, only "The old Jew" and
"Damned Jew."
The Chairman. Do they call him that publicly ?
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And in his hearing?
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir; they called him that when he was in the
large boys' quarters. The report comes to me that after he made the
inspection of the large boys' quarters he went to the girls" quarters
and had the girls at assembly, and told them he found a young man
over there in bed with his clothes on in bed. That is the report — • —
The Chairman. You mean, found a boy in the girls' bed ?
Mr. Chase. No; found the boys in their buikling in bed with their
clothes on.
The Chairman. That is about what would happen if they were up
after hours, isn't it? They would just about be scooting off to bed
with their clothes on ?
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Have you participated in these acts of insubordina-
tion toward the superintendent ?
Mr. Chase. I did at one time.
The Chairman. When was that, Mr. Chase?
Mr. Chase. Probably a month and a half ago.
The Chairman. What occasion was that ?
Mr. Chase. I was alone with another boy. Andrew Condon was
the bov's name.
986 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Representative Stephens. What did you do ?
Mr, Chase. I ring the bell at 4 o'clock. I was coming from the
dining room and was out on the porch. I do not know what tempted
me to do it, but I took a pasteboard box, and I stood up on the third
floor porch, and I let it sail like that, and it hit him in the back.
The Chairman. You don't think you were doing right then ?
Mr. Chase. I don't know
The Chairman. I want to make this statement right here, that the
Government and this commission in calling you before us is in no sense
to approve or give countenance to the insubordination which we
believe, from your statements and other information in our posses-
sion, has become quite general in this institution. This investigation
is being conducted for the good of this institution, for the benefit of
the pupils, and for the school in general, and not for the purpose of
wreaking vengence on anyone who happens to have become the victim
of the contempt or disrespect of the pupils in school. We are here to
get information and facts, and to do what we can to improve condi-
tions. But the students in this school must not get the idea that
Congress, or this commission of Congress, regards them as wholly
blameless for this widespread insubordination. It is simply a ques-
tion with us as to what is going on and why, and what is the best
remedy for it.
Now, have you any further statement to make about that that was
not made ?
Mr. Chase. No, sir.
The Chairman. It was stated in the beginning that tliis committee
represents the student body. How many students were in that
meeting that selected this committee ?
Mr. Chase. I should say 200. I could not say just how many
large boys there are; but there were 225, I should judge. This hall
was full; that is, of male students.
The Chairman. Do you know anything about whether there is
much drinking among the bo^s or not ?
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir; there is.
The Chairman. Do many of them become intoxicated at times ?
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What efforts are made by the management of the
school to stop that, and how do they handle that, Mr. Chase ?
Mr. Chase. I do not know only one time that they tried to put a
stop to it. They had an assistant quartermaster here and some
policemen that were working, and they tried to play detective. They
took a bunch of boys down town and gave them a dollar a piece, and
told them to go and buy some whisky. That was by Mr. Friedman's
orders I presume. They told the cops not to bother them, but the
cops did not want to see anybody get in trouble, and they went
around ajid told the saloonkeepers to be wise.
The Chairman. Do the saloon keepers sell the Indian boys liquor
ordinarily ? Is that the way they get it ?
Mr. Chase. No, sir.
The Chairman. Where do they get the liquor?
Mr. Chase. They have bootleggers mostly.
The Chairman. 'Is there a feeling of sympathy among the student
body for that kind of business ? Do the students generally connive
at it?
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 987
Mr. Chase. They have tried to j>ut a stop to it.
The Chairman. Have you any orgajiization among the young men
lookijig toward tryijig to stop that 'i
Mr. Chase. No, sir.
The Chairman. Of course, I suppose, drunkenness or excessive
drinking, or drinking at all, encourages disorder and lack of discipline?
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Just as much as anything can. Do you blame the
superintejident for this drinking — the frequency of it among the
pupils ?
Mr. Chase, Now, I could not hardly answer that.
Representative Carter. Mr. Chase, this young man, Montreville
Yuda — did you say he was expelled ?
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. He was expelled for being down town at
nights, was he?
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir; and Mr. Friedman knew that he was a boy
that was influential among the other boys.
Representative Carter. Can you tell the committee what he did
when he went down town ?
Mr. Chase. Why, Mr. Dietz and Mr. Denny, they originated the
charges that he had been staying at undesirable places in the city of
Carlisle.
The Chairman. Was that true ?
Mr. Chase. I am sure that I could not swear to that, but liis
statement is that it is not true. He told me this, that he had his
night watches, his section officers, and his troop officers that could
prove that he was there.
Representative Carter. But he did stay out from the institution
some nights during the week ?
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. About two, you said ?
Mr. Chase. Probably two.
Representative Carter. Does your student body approve of him
doing that ?
Mr. Chase. They did not know it at the time.
Representative Carter. Would they approve of it ?
Mr. Chase. No, they would not; no, sir.
Representative Carter. Would not your student body think it
would be for the best interests of the institution if he were disciplined
for breaking the rules in that manner ?
Mr. Chase. Your honor, I think there is other things to resort to
besides expulsion. I think that is the last thing to do.
Representative Carter. Was he ever given notice about it before
he was disciplined ?
Mr. Chase. No, sir.
Representative Carter. But lie liad violated the rules and was
expelled ?
Mr. Chase. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. What tribe do you belong to ?
Mr. Chase. Omaha, of Nebraska.
988 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN GIBSON, STUDENT.
TJio Chairman. You were sworn ?
Mr. (iiBsoN. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Where is your liome ^
My. (riBsoN. ill Arizoiui.
Senator Lane. What triho do you belong to ^
Mr. (iiBsoN. Piiua.
The (^iiAiRMAN. You iiuiy proceed and make your statenieut.
Mr. CxiBsoN. 1 have for iny subject the misrepresentation of the
scliool tJirougli the dilFerent ])a])ers, to the authorities in Washi!;gton,
and to the ))ublic. I Jiave found that through the scliool catalogue,
whicli is ])ublislied in— there is one catalogue whi<'h is published in
about lOOG, and it is circulated among the students out on the reser-
vations from the office here, and u]) till 1012 they h.ad no other new
catalogue, but the circulation of the (»ld catalogue has done much
toward bringing students to this school. They have those different
things which I do not think existed at that time, and in the 1912
catalogue ther(* are certain things that were put in that catalogue
that were connected with this school, but are now out of existence.
The Chairman. Tell us what they are.
Mr. Gibson. One thing is the harness shop, w^hich has been
abolished.
The Chairman. When was that abolished?
Mr. Gibson. I have no idea when it was abolished. It was out
of existence when I came, a little over two years ago.
The Chairman. Is that in the catalogue?
Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Does it appear to be a part of the school yet?
Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Published in 1912?
Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Mr. Gibson. Then, another thing is the telegraphy department.
Well, the telegraphy was in existence up to a year or so ago. That
is all right. They had the telegraphy department — I mean the school
catalogue was published when the telegraphy department was here.
The Chairman. It was all right to publish it, then ?
Mr. Gibson. Yes. Then there are articles in the catalogue which
state that the pupils, the young men and young women who should
attend this school, must be from the age of 14 years old and under
20, wliich means they should come here between those two ages.
And yet to-day you can see boys here under that age, not even 10.
You can see boys here, and girls too.
The Chairman. Are there any here over 20 ?
Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir; there are lots of them here over 20.
The Chairman. You have stated that that relates to the time of
their coming here ?
Mr. Gibson. Yos, sir. Of course. I know that common sense
would tell us that any student wdio has lots of brain, you call it, and
can go to school at a very early age and acquire an education, they
would admit him to the departmental grades here. Of course, this
is duo to the public schools within a short distance of their homes.
And in this catalogue I notice* that they call a special student — they
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 989
admit tlio students iiere for two yours. They aio supposed to luive
taken academic courses here, taken the senior examinations and passed
ready to enter tlie two-year term to take the business course and the
telegraphy.
The Chairman. Are tliere many cases wliere that is not conformed
to, and tJiose who have not taken the senior examinations are ad-
mitted to tliat course ?
Mr. Gibson. I could not say; 1 could not tell you that. But there
are pupils here that liave come and taken the examinations and
passed.
Next, I want to refer you to the trades. I spoke of the harness
shop being abolished, and the telegraphy department is abolished.
Tliere are several connections to the telegraphy department which I
will bring in later. Photography has also been abolished. There
has been a general complaint among the boys iu regard to a carpenter
shop here — the inefficiency of the carpenter shop and the manage-
ment of it. They say they do not learn enough here, and as a result
most of them go away disappointed, and yet some of them come here
just for the purpose of learning the trade. Sometimes they run aw^ay
or go back. Of course, I can not recall any of them that ran away
just on account of that, but I have lieard complaints of the manage-
ment of the shop.
Next are the farms. ^Ye have two farms and they both together
■range somewhere in the neighborhood of 311 acres, and it is advertised
that agriculture is carried on extensively. Of course, it is; but
again in the catalogue, agriculture, dairying, hog raising, and poultry
culture are advertised, and I see by their reports that are being
printed now over in the printing shop it brings the net proceeds of
S7,283. And there have been recorded on tlie report of the firet
farm and the second farm — that is the way tliey ai'e distinguished —
the report is that so many eggs are produced. And yet wlieie those
eggs go to w^e have no knowledge of.
Senator Lane. You don't sec them around on vour breakfast
table ?
Mr. Gibson. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you mean by that Uiat tht-ro are no eggs pro-
duced on the farm?
Mr. Gibson. No, sir; I don't know about that; 1 won't say that
is a feet. What I am getting at is that vvc don't get theuL
Senatoi" Lane. They never get any to eat. I su))pose tliey are
not edible eggs.
The Chairman. Do you get an}- poik frojii the farms?
Mr. Gibson. No, sir; very seldouL
The Chairman. Do you get milk from the farms ?
Mr. Gibson. No, sir, Wliere we get the food f don't know. Not
to my knowledge.
The (Chairman. Have y(m vver had a teacher of agri( ulturi' here?
Mr. Gibson. Do you mean as a part of the study?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Gibson. No, sir.
The Chairman. Was that abolihhed (
Mr. GiBsoNT. 1 have no knowledges of any such establishment.
It is stated in one of the catalogues that pupils are brought here
and whenever they show enough knowledge and training along a
990 CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
certain line or occupation here they are allowed to go out and work
at their different trades. I just want to refer you to a few instances
which conflicts with those. Now, there were two telegraph depart-
ments. There were several operators gone out from the telegraphy
department and took positions, and there was some made good, and
yet a year last spring there were two telegraph operators, one in the
Postal Telegraph and one in the Western Union down town — this
was last spring. I don't know whether there is something the matter
the administration, but these two operators went in right at the time
they wxre making good and those operators down town needed them
the worst — that is, when they were getting on sending and receiving
messages — and they were taken out of the telegraph offices and
brought back to the school. An explanation has been asked by
these two operators, but no definite explanation can be given.
There is one boy that came here just for the purpose of learning
telegraphy. This was a boy in the Western Union office. When he
was taken out of there he was sorely disappointed, and he told Mr.
Friedman he was going home if he was treated that way. Well,
the operator in the Western Union office down town got him a posi-
tion at Trenton, N. J., and ho went there — I think he told me that he
went there as assistant manager, and yet he had not had sufficient
training here to take him that far. He done the best he could, but
he said he could pi-etty nearly come up to the standard of good
operators, but not quite. So he was obliged to leave and go home.
'Now, another person that was taken out of a trade was one of the
boys that is here now. He is an automobile machinist. He is down
town working in the garage. Right at the time he was learning to
be a machinist to prepare himself to go out in the world he was taken
out in a similar ca-.e. He was taken out, and he is here at the school
nov.-, and a definite explanation has been asked for and he has not
received it yet.
I don't know what has been wrong, but last spring — 1 for myself
have gone down town in ho])es I could get a start in my trade and
have hovn turned down likemsc. I tried to helj) out the outing
office by getting myself my own ]>osition.
The Chairman. \Vliat is your trade ?
Mr. Gibson. Printing. 1 went out to Mount Holly, Pa., and got a
position there, and notified the outing office to get permission to go
out to tliat position, and I was (hniied on the ground that there
was no boys to be allowed arouiul Carlish^ ;ui<l the vicinity in these
towns. I don't know why.
Again, I wont down to Hariisburg and 1 got me a place in the Har-
risburg Telegraph, and there I was d(>nie(l again, and yet there were
boys working at that time — when I applied for the positions thase
boys wei'C down town woi'king as mechanics and some down at Har-
risburg. 1 don't see any reason why I should not go down there.
Repn^sentative Stephens. Who (Nniied you that right?
Mr. Gibson. Mr. Frieihnan.
Representative Stephf>ns. H(^ (l<Mued you th(> riglit to work there?
Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. And g;\v(> no rc^nson for it ^
Ml'. Gibson. Nn r(><ison whatever.
Now, I want t;i ref(M- you about this Y. M. C. A. As a charter mem-
l)er (if the Y. M. ('. .\. I li;iv(> takon a great d 'al of piich' in this asso-
CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 991
elation, and two years ago we had a resident ^reneral secretary here,
Dr. James W. W. Walker, from Philadelphia . We had our Y. M. C. A.
flomishing, and it was a good organization, about one of the best
organizations that was ever connected with this school ; and he was
training missionaries and field secretaries, and doing all of that, and
and yet Mr. Friedman, just because he would not — of course, I don't
know definitely what the trouble was, l)ut he was discharged, and tha
Y. M. C. A. dissolved — practically dissolved. And we had a paper
in the interest of the Y. M. C. A. published — published down town and
edited by the students — and this was discontinued. For the religious
part of it — why, I don't see anything in that, but I don't think that
ought to be done.
The Chairman. How many members did the Y. M. C. A. have when
it was flourishing ^
Mr. Gibson. We had 275 members.
The Chairman. What was it accomphshing '( What was it doing ?
Mr. Gibson. Dr. Walker had a class for field secretaries, training
them for field secretaries to go out to their homes, and one boy went.
The Chairman. Is it a moral force, a good moral force in the school ?
Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And there is now no Y. M. C. A. to speak of?
Mr. Gibson. No, sir. - Wliy, there is a few boys get together, and
we are trying to establish some kind of a Y. M. C. A., but we can not.
There are very few in attendance each evening.
Representative Stephens. Have you any leader? Have you any-
one to take the ))lace of the man who was discharged ?
Mr. Gibson. Mr. Friedman has taken that into his hands, and he
has appointed whoever he pleased. He has appointed Mr. Mann, our
mathematics teacher, and he has relieved him about two weeks, and
he has appointed the clerk, Mr. Morris.
Representative Stephens. Was that Y. M. C. A. a force for good
among the boys, you say ?
Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. What stand did the Y. M. C. A. take
with reference to the sale of liquor among the boys ? Did they
endeavor to prevent that ?
Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir. They had just taken steps. It was a young
organization^ — not quite a year.
Representative Stephens. Did they discountenance the drinking
of whisky and bootlegging ?
Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Did this man who was discharged teach
the boys that it was WTong to drink whisky and to bootleg ?
Mr. Gibson. Why, he would sometimes take the boys and talk to
them, and he had a great deal of influence among the boys, such
influence that they would listen to him whenever he was talking to
them.
The Chairman. How do the pupils generally regard Mr. Friedman?
Do they respect him ?
Mr. Gibson. In a certain way, they do. On account of his author-
ity they do respect him, but as a whole they do not regard him as a
man of authority.
The Chairman. Do you know why that is tru(> (
Air. Gibson. I could not sav defiiiitelv whv.
992 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. Do the students generally recognize the necessity
for disciphne and for authority in the management of the school?
They understand that, do they?
Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now, do you know why it is that he seems to
have lost the influence that he should have here, if he ever had any ?
IVIr. Gibson. It is all on account of his management of the school,
I guess. I do not know just how to put it.
Representative Stephens. Have you heard them jeer him and
names called when he was passing by ?
Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. How often?
Mr. Gibson. Whenever they would see him.
Senator Lane. Did you ever call him any?
Mr. Gibson. I have, frequently.
Senator Lane. \^^at did you call him?
Mr. Gibson. I called him "Jew;" that is about all.
Senator Lane. Are 3'ou the man that called him a ''damned Jew" ?
Mr. Gibson. No, sir; I was not.
The Chairman. Is there any estrangement among the pupils
generally and Mr. Friedman? Do the pupils generally dislike
Mr. Friedman ?
JVIr. Gibson. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. What did you have for dinner to-night?
Representative Stephens. Yes; give us the biU of fare.
Senator Lane. What was the bill of fare? Soup
Mr. Gibson. Sirup.
Senator Lane. Soup ?
Mr. Gibson. We didn't have any.
Senator Lane. What did you have for dinner?
Mr. Gibson. I forget what we had. Sirup and tea, and prunes
Senator Lane. Sirup, tea, and prunes
Mr. Gibson. Bread.
Senator Lane. Butter?
Mr. Gibson. No, sir.
Senator Lane. Potatoes ?
Mr. Gibson. No, sir.
Senator Lane. Nothing but sirup ?
The Chairman. Did 3"ou have any meat?
Mr. Gibson. Xo, sir; we didn't have any meat.
Senator Lane. Hold on; let me get that do^\^l. Sirup, tea, prunes,
and bread ?
Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Any kind of gravy?
Senator Lane. Did you have gravy?
A Pupil. Yes; a meat stow, made in a kind of broth.
Senator Lane. Beef stew, was it?
A Pupil. Yes.
Senator Lane. Any vegetables in it ?
A Pupil. No, sir.
Senator Lane. What did you have for breakfast this morning?
Your memory is not good for your meals?
Mr. Gibson. No, sir.
Senator Lane. How many prunes did you have for your ration?
CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 993
Mr. CiBsoN. I don't remember.
The Chaprman. Is there complaint here about the food that is
served ?
Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Has it improved recently?
Mr. Gibson. It has improved since Air. Linnen was here.
The Chairman. Much ?
Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir; immensely.
The Chairman. It is better sine ' Inspector Linnen came than it
was before ?
Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What is the difference between what it is now and
what it was before he came ?
Mr. Gibson. There is another man here can give that.
TESTIMONY OF ALVIS MARTIN, STUDENT.
The witness was reminded that he had been sworn.
The Chairman. '\Miere are you from ?
Mr. Martin. Wisconsm.
The Chairman. Now, Mr. Martin, you may go ahead.
Mr. Martin. One of the reasons for the discontent in this school
is that insufficient amomit of food; that is, for us to eat at the meals.
Bread is the main food which we are continually clamoring for.
During the football season I ate on the training table so I do not
know what the students' fare was, but I heard some of them remark
they must have been saving up for Thanksgiving. On Thanksgiving
day we get a feast, and on Christmas day. They must have been
getting poor food then, because they said they must have been saving
up for Thanksgiving so they could afford to give us a great deal.
Immediately after Thanksgiving I heard that again. About this
time the training table was dropped, and I went on the regular
tables With the students, and bread — every other day we would nave
to cry for bread in the hall. It is a regular uproar the way the bo;^s
yell sometimes, but no bread is given them. It is in the bakery, it is
m the shelves, sometimes in the kitchen, but none is there for the
students.
The Chairman. Let me understand you. You mean the supply
of bread for the tables was so short that they made an outcry in the
dining room ?
Mr. Martin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Regularly ?
Mr. Martin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And that after the outcry was made they were
unable to secure sufficient bread ?
Mr. Martin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Mr. Martin. There was no extra meat — not very much. On some
tables nothing but a bone, and when 10 men get there there is noth-
ing to eat, and they try to send in for more, and there is no meat.
Senator Lane. Hold on. What do you have for breakfast ordi-
narily? What is the ration for breakfast? Coffee?
Mr. Martin. Coffee.
35601— PT 11—14 3
994 CABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Senator Lane. What else?
Mr. Martin. Oatmeal.
Senator Lane. Good oatmeal ?
Mr. Martin. Well, there is no sugar. It does not taste bitter, but
there is no milk
Senator Lane. You have sirup for breakfast?
Mr. Martin. No, sir.
Senator Lane. What else for breakfast?
Mr. Martin. Gravy.
Senator Lane. Meat gravy ?
Mr. Martin. No, sir; just gravy
Senator Lane. What meat do you have for breakfast?
Mr. Martin. Tough meat.
Senator Lane. I know; but how is it cooked?
Mr. Martin. I don't know how it is cooked.
Senator Lane. You know the difference between roast meat and
fried meat ?
Mr. Martin. Roast.
Senator Lane. Roast beef for breakfast ? What else do you have ?
Prunes ?
Mr. Martin. No, sir; no prunes.
Senator Lane. Bread and butter ?
Mr. Martin. No, sir; no butter.
Senator Lane. How often do you have butter?
Mr. Martin. Once a week. We had it here when Mr. Liimen came,
however.
Senator Lane. Now, what do you have for lunch, ordinarily?
Mr. Martin. Before Mr. Linnen came we had meat.
Senator Lane. What do you call that, lunch or dinner?
Several Boys. Dinner.
Senator Lane. Now, what do you have for dinner — meat?
Mr. Martin. Gravy, bread, water
Senator Lane. I mean to eat. Butter?
Mr. Martin. No, sir.
Senator Lane. Potatoes?
Mr. Martin. Once in a while, for breakfast, we have sirup.
Senator Lane. I am talking about dinner — the noon meal.
Mr. Martin. That is on Sunday dinner.
Senator Lane. I mean on week days.
Mr. Martin. Once in a while. There is nothing in the gravy.
Senator Lane. Coffee or tea?
Mr. Martin. No, sir; just water.
Senator Lane. Any fruit of any kind?
Mr. Martin. No, sir; no fruit. Before Mr. Linnen came, if we did
not have beans we had rice.
Senator Lane. Rico?
Mr. Martin. Rice, or else peas.
Senator Lane. At night what do you get?
Mr. Martin. Tea, gravy, bread — sometimes that gravy is a kmd of
broth.
Senator Lane. What else?
Mr. Martin. Once a week we get ginger cake.
Senator Lane. Sirup at all times on the table?
CARLISLE INDLA.N SCHOOL. 995
Mr. Martin. We always used to get two pitchers of sirup until a
couple of months ago, but now only one once a week.
Senator Lane. That is, two pitchers apiece?
Mr. Martin. One pitcher on the table.
Senator Lane. How much does it hold ?
Mr. Martin. One of those little pitchers.
Senator Lane. How many students to a table?
Mr. Martin. Ten.
The Chairman. How long is that supposed to last?
Mr. Martin. Through the meal.
The Chairman. How many times a week?
Mr. Martin. I think we get sirup once.
The Chairman. Is it a fact that students have been compelled to
leave their meals hungry ?
Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. And then they go to the store in town.
There is a back store down here.
The Chairman. The conditions, however, have improved since
Inspector Linnen came ?
Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. There are always two dishes of prunes.
The Chairman. You get all the gravy you want, I beheve?
Mr. Martin. No, sir; not all we want. We did a year or so ago,
but lately we hardly ever get the second dish.
The Chairman. You were on the football team ?
Mr. Martin. On the scrubs.
The Chairman. They put you on a diet ?
;Mr. Martin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You were supposed to get food especially prepared,
I presume ?
jMt. Martin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is there a sufficiency of knives and forks and tea-
cups, and things of that sort ?
\li. Martin. There has not been. Yesterday, I think, Miss
Zeamer announced that there was enough.
The Chairman. How do you get along when you do not have a
sufficient number to go around ?
Mr. Martin. Go from one table to another, if there are any absent.
Sometimes we have to go without.
We have no milk, no eggs, no buttermilk — which the farm pro-
duces— and cream.
Representative Stephens. Do you have sugar ?
Mr. ^Martin. It never comes in the form of sugar.
The Chairman. Do they grow potatoes on this farm ?
Mr. Martin. Yes, sir. This last year there were 2,330 bushels
raised.
The Chairman. How often do they serve potatoes ?
Mr. Martin. As a rule they come on Wednesday breakfast and
on Sunday dinner. Once in a while there is a couple in the gravy.
The Chairman. Twice a week, then, potatoes are served?
Mr. Martin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How often is meat served ? Is there meat served
at every n;e;il?
Mr. jMartin, No; breakfast and dinner. And there is a broth at
supper — gravy, and sometimes broth.
996 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. Was there anythmg else you wanted to speak
about, Mr. Martin ?
Mr. Martin. Pork. This year there were 100 hogs driven to mar-
ket, and they are raising hogs down here, and we have no pork from
that source — no meat of that kind.
The Chairman. What vegetables are supplied at these meals ?
Mr. Martin. Black beans; brown beans.
The Chairman. Don't they serve you turnips, onions, and salads
or greens ?
Mr. Martin. No salads.
Senator Lane. Cabbage ?
Mr. Martin. Not now.
Senator Lane. In the summer time, in the season when vegetables
are growing good, you have plenty of vegetables ?
Mr. Martin. Yes, sir — I have not been here when they had.
The Chairman. Do you have milk or sugar for your oatmeal in
the morning ?
Mr. Martin. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do they serve oatmeal in the morning ?
Mr. Martin. Yes, sir; every morning except one.
Senator Lane. Have you no sugar for it ?
Mr. Martin. It does not come in the form of sugar. Sometimes
it is a little sweet, and other times it is not.
Senator Lane. It is mixed in the kitchen ?
Mr. Martin. I don't know; it must be.
The Chairman. Do the boys sometimes use the same knife and
fork, or drink out of the same cup ?
Mr. Martin. No; they generally go without it if they do not have
it.
Representative Stephens. Do most of the students who come here
come from the district schools on the reservation or from reservation
schools ?
Mr. Martin. Most of them, I think, are from the reservations.
Representative Stephens. Did you come from the reservation ?
Mr. Martin. I lived on it all my life, but when I came here I was
not.
Representative Stephens. You do not know, then, of your own
personal knowledge, whether they came from district schools here to
this school?
Mr. Martin. No.
Representative Carter. What degree of blood are you ?
Mr, Martin. Quarter blood.
Representative Stephens. What tribe ?
Mr. Martin. Chippewa.
TESTIMONY OF LEWIS BRAUN, STUDENT.
The witness was reminded that he had been sworn.
The Chairman. Where are you from, Mr. Braun?
Mr. Braun. South Dakota.
The Chairman. IIow long have you been in the Carlisle Institute ?
Mr. Braun. I came here in September, 1911.
The punishments here in some cases have been brutal. There are
a number of small boys who have been hit by the disciplinarian with
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 997
his fist, and there is a number of them here yet, and some of them
have run away. I have the names. Ira Cloud was hit in the eye,
and he has a scar by this eye where the ring on our disciplinarian's
finger cut him across the eye.
The Chairman. What disciphnarian was that ?
Mr. Braun. The small bo3^s' disciplinarian, Mr. Denny.
Senator Lane. When did this happen ?
Mr. Braun. Here lately, about two weeks ago. He has the scar
yet.
Representative Carter. Mr. Denny is an Indian himself isn't he?
Mr. Braun. Yes, sir.
There was three boys, Eddie Adams, George Morrow, and Paul
Black (wSpotted Horse) were taken into Mr. Denny's office and
whipped with a baseball bat, and one of them the arm was hurt so he
had to go up to the hospital.
Senator Lane. Struck him with a baseball bat?
Mr. Braun. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. How old were the boys ?
Mr. Braun. They were about 16, I guess.
Representative Stephens. Which one was it that was hit with the
baseball bat ?
Mr. Braun. I think that was Eddie Adams. George Morrow, one
of the boys, is here now.
Then there is tAvo boys, Herbert Bradley and James Kalawat.
James Kalawat was punished one time for dropping a rag on top of the
floor. That was on Halloween night. Mr. Denny caught him up-
stairs and hit liim and knocked him clear dow^n the first flight of stairs.
The Chairman. What did he hit him with?
Mr. Braun. He hit him with his fist. JMilton Brave was hit in the
face with his fist. Marion French was hit with liis fist, and Edward
Woods, a very smaU boy, w^as hit ^vith his fist. Milford Henderson,
another very small boy, about, I believe, 10 or 12 or 14 years old, was
hit in the face with his fist. John Cox and David Crow
The Chairman. All those were struck with the fist ?
Mr. Braun. Yes, sir; the boys that are here. And then some time,
two years ago, there was a boy here by the name of Louis Bear was
hit over the head by a shinny club.
Mr. Denny was taking the boys in there to punish them — he don't
give them any chance to explain. The boys are mocking him most
of the time: "Wliat did you do?" ''Why did you do that?" And
if they say anything, he says, "Shut up," and he hits them.
Some time ago there w^as two boys stole a violin, who were from the
same tribe — the Skindore boys, and they took the viohn down town
and pawned it. Afterwards the boy that lost the viohn found out
about it, and Mr. Denny went down tow^n and bought the viohn, or
got it out of the pawnshop, and gave it back to him, and he put the
boys to work about an hour and a half that afternoon and let them go.
And the boy whose violin they stole w^as indignant, and he reported to
one of the officers here and asked him for a court-martial, and after-
wards when there was a court-martial here for some other boys the
other boys refused to be court-martialed unless the Skindore boys
were court-martialed, and they took them up to the court-martial.
Otherwise they would have gone unpunished.
998 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL,
That is all I have. One of the boys spoke about Sylvia Moon's
case. I was one of the boys that went up to Mr. Friedman about that
case. Wlien we asked him why she was expelled, first he got mad and
gave us a lecture for coming up. Finally he said she was not ex-
pelled, that she was sent home as a graduate. Afterwards we wrote
to her, and she answered our letter, and she said that when she was
sent home she was under guard from here to Harrisburg, and had to
pay the fare of the matron to Harrisburg and pay for her meals and
pay for her fare to return back to the school.
|Af-The Chairman. What is the general condition of the disciphne in
the school, Mr. Braun?
Mr. Braun. It seems to me as though it is partial. Some of the
boys are punished very severely for merely nothijig, while others are
let go for doing something
The Chairman. What is the order in the school ?
Mr. Braun. It is poor.
The Chairman. Is it getting better or worse ?
Mr. Braun. Getting worse.
The Chairman. How long has it been growing worse, within your
knowledge ?
Mr. Braun. When I fiist came here the order was fairly good, and
there was very few cases where the boys showed any definite disre-
spect for the people iji charge. But here lately it is a very common
thing for a boy to h()ller at the disciplinarian or holler at Mr. Friedman.
The Chairman. What do they say? Go right ahead and tell it.
Mr. Braun. ''Who let him out?" One time we were having our
picture taken, and Mr. Friedman was there. He had long hair, and
the boys were hollering, ''Why don't you get a hair cut ?" and offering
to cut his hair. And they show disrespect to Mr. Denny, who is our
disciplinarian over there. He talks broKcn English. I was talldng to
most of the boys — I know most of the boys — in their quarters, and I
don't know one boy that respects Mr. Donny, ajid his influence over
the boys is very poor.
The Chairman. Why is that?
Mr. Braun. The ojily reason they have for obeying him is fear of
him, and the boys don't seem to have much fear.
The Chairman. Do they feel any attachment toward Mr. Fried-
man?
Mr. Braun. None of them like Mr. Friedman.
The Chairman. He is unpopular throughout the school, is he?
Sejiator Lane. This man Denny, the disciplinariaj\, did he ever
punish you ?
Mr. Braun. He has reprimanded me, but has nevei' punished me.
The Chairman. Do you know of anybody else whipping the pupils
here?
Mr. Braun. I think it was last spring, about a week before we went
to Washington — that was some time in the latter part of February —
there were four boys in the guardhouse, Charlie Williams, Charles
Bellcourt, Robert Nash, and Thomas Nicholas. They were in the
guardhouse, I believe, on just cause, for they refused to play in the
band. They were band boys. Sunday night at 11 o'clock Mr.
StaufTer, the nmsic teacher here, and Mr. Rudy, who was then assist-
ant disci])linarian at the large boys' quarters, and Mr. Dickey, who
was the outing agent here and was in charge of the large boys' quarters
CABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 999
as disciplinarian over there, and Mr. Warner, the athletic coach, and
Mr. Dietz, who is the art teacher here, went do^vn to the guardhouse
and wliipped those boys. There is three of them who have gone
home, but one is here yet, and I was speaking to him and he said he
had scars on him yet.
The Chairman. What is his name ?
Mr. Braun. Robert Nash.
The Chairman. Do you know upon what authority they went and
whipped them?
Mr, Braun. I do not know, but 1 do know that Mr. Friedman knew
about it afterwards.
Eepresentative Stephens. How do you know that?
Mr. Braun. Because the boys reported it, and there was quite a
stir around.
The Chairman. Who did the whipping?
Mr. Braun. Mr. Dickey.
The Chairman. Do you know of the bandmaster here whipping a
girl ])U])il ?
Mr. Braun. Yes, sir; that is, I have heard about it.
The Chairman. What was that case?
Mr. Braun. Julia Hardin. She is here now.
The Chairman. You do not know of your own personal knowledge ?
Mr. Braun. No, sir; only what she has told me and what I have
heard from the rest.
TESTIMONY OF PETER EASTMAN, STUDENT.
The mtness was reminded that he had been sworn.
The Chairman. What tribe do you belong to?
Mr. Eastman. The Sioux.
The Chairman. How long have you been in the Carlisle Institute ?
Mr. Eastman. About three years. I came about the same time
Mr. Brau did.
The Chairman. What class are you now in ?
Mr. Eastman. Attending Conway Hall.
The Chairman. Go ahead and make your statement.
Mr. Eastman. I have a statement on the same subject as Mr. Braun.
The first one I know personally about is strapping four boys in
the guard house. I am one of the band members. The way it
happened, they were supposed to have a reception here, and some-
thing came up and they postponed the reception. Instead of that
they wanted to have a band concert, and the boys, thinking that
Mr. Stauffer was the one that caused them to postpone the recep-
tion, because he was the band leader, some of them made up their
minds to refuse to play and asked the band members if they would
play. Some thought they would, that it was all right, and some
said they would not. These four boys were considered leaders.
There were three of them; one of them apologized, and the others
got punished. They were taken down there and strapped. One of
the boy officers, William Garlow, is here, and he knew about this.
He had been advertising in the catalogue to have court-martials
here. These men went down there illegally. They did not have
any court-martial at all. The student body did not know about it
at all: it was the officers. I understood Mr. Garlow to state that
1000 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. Friedman did not know a thing about it until the next day.
They were strapped, and one of the boys especially is a young man
who was taken out of the band. He was the best baritone player
we had, and he was taken out of the band and they won't let him play.
The Chairman. Is he here now ?
Mr. Eastman. No, sir; he is at the hospital.
The Chairman. Where are the other boys ?
Mr. Eastman. One is here with us, and the other has gone home.
Senator Lane. When did this happen ?
Mr. Eastman. This was last spring, just before the band went to
Washington.
The Chairman. Wliat is the general state of discipline and order
in the school ?
Mr. Eastman. It is corrupt. They have no respect for high au-
thorities here at all, especially for Mr. Friedman. I remember
instances — the time I think it really started was when they took Mr.
Walker out of here. They had an athletic meet out there, and he
came in front with somebody and stood up in front and they told him
to sit down. They kept hollering ''down in front" and he sat down.
And an instance that happened here lately was when he was going
through quarters. He went through the quarters one night first and
the boys never knew it. Of course he waked some boys up and talked
to them in the middle of the night. The second tmie he came up it
was one night in Ejcember. He came through again and the boys
came out and threw shoes at him and called him names.
The Chairman. Were you in on that ?
Mr. Eastman. No, sir; I was not.
The Chairman. You say the insubordmation practically began
with the dismissal of Mr. Walker, the Y. M. C. A. man ?
Mr. Eastman. Some of it did.
The Chairman. The students were attached to Mr. Walker, were
they ?
Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir. He had the interest of the boys at heart.
He had his picture taken with the student body here. And he had
a little paper for the Y. M. C. A., and they had meetings here. Now
you very seldom get any meetings here at all.
The Chairman. The dismissal of Mr. Walker practically destroyed
the Y. M. C. A. influence in the school ?
Mr. Eastman. Practically destroyed it.
The Chairman. Do you know why he was let go ?
Mr. Eastman. No, sir; I have no personal knowledge.
The Chairman. The boys were attached to him ?
Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir. In fact, some of the boys wept when he
left.
The Chairman. How long has it been since he left ?
Mr. Eastman. He left last spring some time. It is almost a year.
The Chairman. Have you anything further ?
Mr. Eastman. Well, about the boys throwing shoes at Mr. Fried-
man. They told him to get out, and "Who let him loose?" and
everything. They called him "Christ killer," and "Pork dodger,"
and "Jew."
About the Y. M. C. A. After the Y. M. C. A. started the boys
came back this fall and I was vice president and one of the boys was
president, and we tried to do all we could to get them together. We
CARLISLE INDLA.N SCHOOL. 1001
got a secretary here, Mr. Mann. Personally I have spoken to him
quite a bit, but he is no example to the boys at all. He does not
speak good English to the boys and the boys have lost all interest.
Representative Stephens. What is the trouble \vith the secretary ?
Mr. Eastman. He was not the man for that position.
Representative Stephens. Why?
Mr. Eastman. Well, I don't thmk he was fit for that position,
because I have seen him speakmg to boys and talking with them
and the English he used was not good.
Senator Lane. Is there much profanity being used on these
premises ?
Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Is there more or less drinking?
Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir; tliere is some drmkiiig.
Senator Lane. Is it just occasional? There is ro regular drmking
on the part of anyone ?
Mr. Eastman. Well, m some instances there is boys that gets
drunk almost any time they want it. I have seen instances — I don't
really thuik there is any great step taken in trying to stop this,
because anyone that w^ould try could stop it — and being in town I
know very well they could stop it, because I m3-sclf coming back
from school have seen boys in the hotels, and I know^ very well they
got it.
Senator Lane. You are pretty sm^e of that?
Mr. Eastman. Yes, su*; I saw the boys, but not mysfdf.
Senator Lane. This young man says he knows the boys got this
whisky at the hotels.
Representative Stephens. Wliat hotels ?
Mr. Eastman. The Thudium House.
Representative Stephens. Any other hotel ?
Mr. Eastman. No; I do not recall any other hotel.
Representative Stephens. What boys did you see go in?
Mr. Eastman. There is one of the boys, I think, under punishment
now.
Representative Stephens. What is his name?
Mr. Eastman. Peter Wilkie.
Senator Lane. How is he being punished now ?
Mr. Eastman. I do not know. He was in the guardhouse.
The Chairman. Do they keep a watchman about the grounds
here, or make any effort to find out when the boys come in drinking ?
Mr. Eastman. Not that I know of. They have a night watchman
here that is just a student watchman.
The Chairman. You have no organization within the student
body that is designed to protect the good name of the school from
that kind of reputation ?
Mr. Eastman. No, sir; the only step that was taken was that
Y. M. C. A.
The Chairman. You say the Y. M. C. A. did that?
Mr. Eastman. The only thing that had any influence at all.
Dr. Walker had an office over in the large boys' quarters — he did
not stay there all the time — and in the evening he had reading and
entertained the boys there himself.
Senator Lane. Do you have a library here ?
Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir; we have a library.
1002 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Senator Lane. How many volumes ?
Mr. Eastman. I do not know.
Senator Lane. A large-sized library?
Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Are you allowed to go there in the evenings ?
Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Up to what hour?
Mr. Eastman. From 7 to 8; and during the day, of course.
Senator Lane. Now, do your hours of study here permit of your
making use of that in the daytime ?
Mr. Eastman. I do not, personally, now, because I do not stay up
here.
Senator Lane. What time do they go to bed here ? What is the
hour?
Mr. Eastman. Nine o'clock.
The Chairman. The Y. M. C. A. appears to have been a great
influence for good here ?
Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. At least all the students who have expressed
themselves about it say so.
Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And smce Mr, Walker left the Y. M. C. A. has
gone to pieces; the organization has practically dissolved?
Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And now you have no organization within the
school that is calculated to be a moral force for the preservation of
the good namo of the school?
Mr. Eastman. No, sir. We have the Y. M. C. A. yet. It is called
the Y. M. C. A., but it is not the same thing.
The Chairman. It is not accomplishing anything?
Mr. Eastman. No, sir; it is not accomplishing anything.
Representative Stephens. \Yho is manager of the Y. M. C. A?
Mr. Eastman. Mr. Meyer. They have had three since Mr. Walker
left. But the boys, knoAving what Dr. Walker did for the students,
found out when these other men came that they were not doing the
same, so they could not take the same interest. They had JVir. Bryan
from the college, and then Mr. Mann, and now they have Mr. Meyer.
They used to have different speakers from town come around, and
they had good meetings.
The Chairman. Does Mr. Friedman take any interest in the
Y. M. C. A.?
Mr. Eastman. Not that I have known. He may personally, but
he does not show it that I know of. I remember I was a member of
the Y. M. C. A. last year until toward spring, and then I was vice
president until I left. I left in April.
The Chairman. How often did you have meetings?
Mr. Eastman. Every Sunday evening.
The Chairman. Did you have programs ?
Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir; we carried on a program. Sometimes
somebody would speak. Other times there was testimony from the
boys, what they wished to say. During the day Dr. Walker used to
entertain the boys at the office there, reading and whatever they
wished to do.
CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1003
The Chairman. Did Mr, Friedman attend the meetings of the
y. M. C. A. ?
Mr. Eastman. Not very frequently. During last summer I do not
remember seeing him in here but just three times. One was at a
reception and they had a little program in here. Another time he
was in; I don't remember just what occasion it was. And the last
tune I have seen him here during last fall and last spring when they
had a program here just for the benefit of the seniors. The seniors
were supposed to give their ideas of things and speak, and after the
seniors spoke he rose and spoke and gave his idea of it, and he prac-
tically knocked us all on the head, almost the same as calHng us
a har or something.
Tlie Chaikman. He took the contrary view ?
Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir.
The Chaikman. What were the seniors trying to do ?
Mr. Eastman. I was one of the speakers, and Harrison Smith,
one of the boys that was expelled. We told him what the Y. M. C. A.
did for us, and I myself explained how much the boys really thought
of Dr. Walker, and I think that was the first Sunday Dr. Walker was
here. Of course, the boys regretted it, and they asked me to an-
nounce it in the meeting, and I did. And when Dr. Friedman
spoke
The Chairman. What did he say?
Mr. Eastman. He said he could not prove what it did for us unless
we went home and showed it among our people, I can not just say
The Chairman. Anyway, he antagonized the position taken by
the pupils?
Mr. Eastman. There was one instance of unjust punishment. A
senior boy that was here was supposed to write a composition on
citizenship. I suppose he was in the writing room, that seemed to
be what he was doing, and he gave his answers, and he was put in
the guardhouse. He is in there now. He is one of the boys that
will talk to you.
The Chairman. He was pvit in the guardhouse for what ?
Mr. Eastman. For reading a letter, I think it was. I don't ex-
actly know what it is, but he is in here and could tell you a])Out it.
Senator Lane. Which one?
Mr. Eastman. Alvis Martin,
About the meals: We have beef. I have been in the room where
they prepare this beef downstairs, where they cut it up, and it has a
cement floor and everything. I was in there one time when they
were cutting it, and it fell on the floor, and then they just picked it up.
And sometimes we have fish and it is salty — you can hardly put it m
your mouth. One time the fish smelled so you could hardly touch it,
and some of the boys had to leave.
Senator Lane. What kind of fish is it ?
Mr. Eastman. I do not know. It is salty, I know.
The Chairman. Is there anyone else who wants to be heard ?
TESTIMONY OF EDWARD BRACKLIN, STUDENT.
The witness was reminded that he had been sworn.
Senator Lane. Where are you from?
Mr. Bracklin. Wisconsin.
The Chairman. How long have you been in school at Carlisle ?
1004 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. Bracklin. I have been here four years.
The Chairman. Have you ever had any trouble with Superin-
tendent Friedman?
Mr. Bracklin. No, not to amount to anything. Last spring when
I wanted to go home, my time had expired then, and I asked him if
I could go home, and he said no. I had to wait untilJune, but finally
he gave me consent, and that is the only trouble I have had with him.
The Chairman. What is the estimation in which he is held by the
student body in Carlisle ?
Mr. Bracklin. According to what I have seen I do not think it is
a very high estimation.
The Chairman. What in your judgment is the reason he is not
respected by the students, if he is not ?
Mr. Bracklin. All of it has been referred to, but it is this unjust
punishment that has been referred to that led the boys to sort of
rebel, and not giving the boys a voice that they should have in the
office over there. Any time a boy goes over there and wants to make
a complaint he threatens them with punishment. Of course, the
boys come back to charters here and kind of go to the other side of
the question and take it in their own hands.
The Chairman. He refuses to hear their grievances ?
Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And consider their complaints, and they then
become resentful?
Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And, as you say, try to take the matter into their
own hands ?
Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Go ahead and make your statement.
Mr. Bracklin. The statement I want to make is on the health
conditions. Over here in the large boys' quarters they are not sup-
plied well enough with towels. We get one towel a week to wash
with, and some get a bath towel. The way the boys go around here,
that is not sufficient for anybody.
Senator Lane. What is it? A roller towel or ordiQary size ?
Mr. Bracklin. One little towel it used to be, but now they have
this sanitary towel in rolls. It is a kind of blotting paper.
Senator Lane. Don't you got enough of that?
Mr. Bracklin. I don't really know over there, but lots of times
th'>y do not get enough of it. I room over in tho athletic quarters,
and I have h'^ard th'? boys complain that they do not get enough
towels. This paper runs out, and they have to go up in their rooms
and wipe th^nr faces with the sheets or pillow cases or anything they
can get hold of.
This gymnasium down h'U-e — this place here should be kept just
as clean as anywh'n-e else, because th" students come h'n-e and drill,
and h'nv th^y spend th-nr social evenings all together. Of course,
I hold Mr. Friedman responsible for that condition, that h<^ should
keep it cl"an. You can go right down tli'^re and look around the
pip^s and it is nothing but tobacco spit and dirt all around th" pipes
and wall.
Senator Lane. Th" students do that themselves, don't they?
Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Do they chew tobacco ?
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1005
Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. And smoke cigarettes ?
Mr. Bracklin. Yes.
Senator Lane. Can not the boys have a rule to regulate the con-
duct of the students ?
Mr. Bracklin. The way we look at it that would be stepping over
Mr. Friedman's head, taking the authority into our own hands.
Senator Lane. You think that is for him to do ?
Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Did you ever complain to him about the condition
of it and call his attention to it ?
Mr. Bracklin. Not that I know of.
Senator Lane. Does he ever inspect the place?
Mr. Bracklin. I do not think so. If he did he would have it
cleaned.
About fire drills, there is not enough of that, which, of course,
treats under health conditions. Now, the only time they have fire
drills over here — they never have them over here in the boys' quarters.
They have them over in the girls' quarters. The only time they have a
fire drill is when a moving picture man comes over nere and takes the
picture.
The Chairman. Is that literally true ?
Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What is the object in having fire drills in the
girls' quarters and not in the boys' quarters. Is there any reason
assigned for it ?
Mr. Bracklin. In my opinion it is just to cause a little excitement
on the campus through the moving pictures.
The Chairman. To make a show?
Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, have you a fire organization
among the boys in the school ? Who is the fire chief ?
Mr. Bracklin. The fire chief is Mr. Weberton, the plumber.
The Chairman. Have you a fii-e company among the boys?
Mr. Bracklin. Not that I know of. I do not know of any.
They might have.
The Chairman. Did you ever see them drill here on the premises ?
Mr. Bracklin. No, sir.
The Chairman. What fire escapes are there on the girls' buildings ?
Mr. Bracklin. Well, on those porches there is two, I think.
They are made out of this pipe, and they only lead do\\TT. to the
second floor and there the girls have to shde on this pipe do\ATi to the
second floor, and from there I suppose they go inside and run doAvn
the stairs.
The Chairman. There is no way to get out on the fire escapes from
the second floor at aU, then ?
Mr. Bracklin. No, sir.
The Chairman. Are the fire escapes on the girls' buildings ade-
quate otherwise than that? Is there enough of them?
Mr. Bracklin. I do not think so.
The Chairman. There are only two on the building, you say ?
Mr. Bracklin. Two on each floor coming down.
The Chairman. What fire escapes are there on the boys' buildings?
Mr. Bracklin. The same thing.
1006 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. Do you know how long they have been in use ?
Mr. Bracklin. No, su-; they were here when I came.
The Chairman. The fire-escapes on the boys, building extend to
the groujid, or near enough, do,n't they? You do not know about
that?
Mr. Bracklin. No.
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Mr. Bracklin. The fire escapes over in the athletic quarters on
the east side — I think there is five or six of those steps taken out.
If there should happen to come a fire, how is a boy going to escape
down those fire escapes ?
Senator Lane. How do they come to be out?
Mr. Bracklin. I think Mr. Friedman gave an order to take them
out because the boys oftentimes went down these stairs to go out on
the athletic field.
Senator Lane. Are they wooden steps?
Mr. Bracklin. No; they are iron.
The Chairman. Don't the boys use them to slip out sometimes
and steal away from school ?
Mr. Bracklin. No, sir.
I don't know whether to speak of the girls' quarters or not. The
girls' windows are nailed down. The bottom sash is nailed solid to
the top, and the only way they can get any fresh air is to have a
little opening on top and they can not open the bottom sash up.
The Chairman. Do you know why that is done ?
Mr. Bracklin. No, sir.
The Chairman. I presume that is done to keep them from passing
in and out of the rooms tlirough the windows.
Mr. Bracklin. I do not think they could pass down there and
jump to the ground.
The Chairman. You do not think it would be necessary to fasten
the windows for that purpose ?
Mr. Bracklin. No, sir.
The Chairman. On the second floor, you mean ?
Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir. The girls do not room on the first floor,
only on the west side.
The Chairman. What about the bedding in the boys' quarters?
Mr. Bracklin. The bedding is all right, I think. Of course, it is
a little hard, and there is no springs to it.
The Chairman. But you think you can make out on that very well ?
Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You have no complaint on that account ?
Mr. Bracklin. No, sir.
The boys' punishment in the guardhouse — the boys go down there
being punished for some mischief of any kind, and they put them
down there, and if he has done any serious crime they feed him on
two sandwiches a day — meat sandwiches.
The Chairman. Do you mean to say that part of the punishment
imposed on a refractory student is starving him ?
Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is that universally done ?
Mr. Bracklin. It has been done here for the last two months. If
these boys work they get one regular meal a day at the noon hour.
The Chairman. The boys in the guardhouse ?
CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1007
Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. If they work?
Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. What kind of work would that be ?
Mr. Bracklin. The boys that work in the guardhouse have to go
down to the boiler house and shovel coal.
Senator Lane. Firing?
Mr. Bracklin. They have a place where they can haul the coal
from and get it handy to the boilers.
The Chairman. They do not work them on two sandwiches a
day ? Is there anything else — —
Senator Lane. What are the sand^\^ches composed of?
Mr. Bracklin. Meat. And their bedding — they do not get any
mattress, just these iron strips. No bedding, only their mattress.
Possibly, sometimes they steal a pillow and take it down there, but
no mattress.
The Chairman. Part of the punishment, then, is a bad bed ?
Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. How many boys have been put in the
guardhouse within the last three months ?
Mr. Bracklin. I could not say for certain. There has been some
there all through.
Representative Carter. How many have been in the guardhouse
during the last month ?
Senator Lane. Does anybody know?
A Pupil. Probably eight or nine.
Representative Carter. How many were in there last week ? •
A Pupil. Four, I think.
Representative Carter. How may are in there now ?
A Pupil. I am sure I can not say. Three, I think.
Representative Carter. What are they in there for ?
Mr. Bracklin. There was seven in there tliis noon.
Representative Carter. What are they in for ?
;Mr. Bracklin. Some for being drunk; most of them for being
drunk.
Representative Carter. Anything else ?
Mr. Bracklin. No, sir; I don't know anything.
Representative Carter. What is the procedure for placing the boy
in the guardhouse ? Do they give him a trial or anything ?
Air. Bracklin. Wliy, there used to be, but it has not been done
lately. They used to court-martial him, but it has not been done for
a long time — since last spring, I think.
The Chairman. Who has the power to send him to the guard-
house
]Mr. Bracklin. Sometimes these boys, when they were court-
martialed, they were fined possibly $2; possibly $10.
Senator Lane. Cash fine ?
Mr. Bracklin. If the boy has cash, he pays. Sometimes he has
money i p 1 ere hi ll-.c office, and they take it out.
Senator Lane. Wliat is done with that money?
Mr. Bracklin. They cham that they buy magazines and papers for
the large bty.,' quart er?.
Representative Carter. You have not told us who sentences these
boys to the guardhouse.
1008 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. Bracklin. Who takes them down?
Representative Carter. No; who has the right to say that they
shall or shall not go there ?
IVfr. Bracklin. Why, I think the disciplinarian has that part of it.
Representative Carter. Who is he?
Mr. Bracklin. Mr. McKean.
Representative Carter. Does Mr. Friedman have anything to do
with that ?
Mr. Bracklin. I should judge that Mr. McKean has orders from
Mr. Friedman.
Representative Carter. But you don't know that? That is your
judgment?
Mr. Bracklin. No, sir.
Representative Carter. Do they always put a boy in the guard-
house when he gets drunk ?
Mr. Bracklin. WTiy, that is if they know he is drunk. Lots of
them they do not find out.
Representative Carter. Do you know anything about how these
boys get this whisky ?
^Ir. Bracklin. Not positively; only what I have heard.
Representative Carter. What do you hear about it ?
Mr. Bracklin. Sometimes they go down here in town and get these
bootleggers, of course. They are blacks mostly. They get them to
go and get the whisky for them, and the negroes bring it to them.
Representative Carter. The negro goes to the saloon and buys it ?
Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir; possibly sometimes the whites.
Representative Carter. What does the boy pay for it ?
Mr. Bracklin. I could not say, sir.
Representative Carter. But the negro gets a profit. He does not
do that through friendship ?
Mr. Bracklin. Possibly not.
Representative Carter. You never bought any yourself ?
Mr. Bracklin. No, sir.
Representative Stephens. Do you know the names of any of
these fellows that do that ?
Mr. Bracklin. No; I do not know them.
Representative Carter. Can you give us the name of anybody
that could tell of us of any ?
Mr. Bracklin. I thmk Mr. Charles Kelsey could tell you.
Representative Carter. Is he a student ?
Mr. Bracklin. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Is there anybody else ?
Mr. Bracklin. I could not say for sure who would teU, but there
is lots of them that gets it, I guess. It would be pretty hard to get
them to tell who they get it from.
Representative Stephens. Can any of you young men, or ladies
either, give us the names of any of these bootleggers in this town,
black or white, male or female? Don't all speak at once.
Mr. Eastman. I could not say any name, but I have seen boys at
this house I told you about — the hotel.
Representative Stephens. Can you give us the names of boys
that would know ?
Mr. Eastman. I do not know whether I could give the name or not.
Representative Stephens. You gave his name a while ago ?
CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1009
Mr. Eastman. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Can any of the rest of you boys give
us the name of anybody that would know ?
A Pupil. I know of boys who tell me they get it.
Representative Stephens. Now, what is the name of that boy ?
A Pupil. There is one boy, for instance, that was court-martialed
i'ust a few days ago. That is Peter Wilkie. He says he got it at the
Pennsylvania House. I forget the name of another boy who was up
there at the same time, but he is in the guardhouse at present.
Representative Stephens. He is in the guardhouse now ?
A Pupil. Yes. I think he stated he got it at the Pennsylvania
House.
Representative Carter. Wliat is his name ?
A Pupil. He is a new boy; I forget his name.
Representative Carter. What is this other fellow's name ?
A Pupil. Wilkie.
Representative Stephens. Can the rest of you boys, or girls either,
give any names of anybody you think would know ?
(No response.)
Mr. Bracklin. I would like to mention discipline and order a lit-
tle. It is my own opinion, for one thing, that it is lax. In 1908 the
boys and girls used to meet together. At that time they took pride
in going there in a respectable way and being a gentleman or a lady
while in the dining room. But now, after they have been separated,
the boys do not seem to care how they go over there. They go over
any time — -go into the dining room — -do not have to have any forma-
tion over there. They just go over any time they get ready. They
go most of the time just like they are going to work. They go in
their working clothes — never washed. This way they do not learn
how to act at a table, do not learn any manners; whereas, in my
judgment, if they had to eat with the girls they would learn a little
manners and learn how to act at a table.
Representative Stephens. Do they have anyone there at the table
to keep order?
Mr. Bracklin. They have -a matron.
Representative Stephens. Does IVIr. Friedman ever go to the din-
ing room himself ?
Mr. Bracklin. He has not been there this fall, only Christmas and
Thanksgiving.
Representative Stephens. Do they have disorder on those days?
Mr. Bracklin. No.
The Chairman. You know Inspector Linnen, do you?
Mr. Bracklin. Not personally. I have seen him around.
The Chairman. Did he talk with you about what your testimony
was going to be ?
^Ir. Bracklin. No, sir.
TESTIMONY OF HENRY BROKER, STUDENT.
The witness was reminded that he had been sworn.
Senator Lane. Where are you from?
Mr. Broker. From the White Earth Reservation, Mnn.
The Chairman. Proceed with your statement.
35601— PT 11—14 4
1010 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. Broker. I will just have to dwell on the laxity of discipline.
In my judgment the laxity of discipline is due to loss of respect by
the students for the head, caused by the ignoring of their complaints,
mostly because students have went up there with certain complaints
and they could not get redress in any way. His unjust punishment
of students — for instance, take that of expulsion. Students have
been expelled for little or no cause whatever, and if the other students
have asked for reasons why a certain student has been expelled he has
been either threatened with punishment or ignored.
Representative Carter. Can you give cases where the students
have been expelled without cause ?
Mr. Broker. Well, there is the case of James Baker — it has been
given already. And that is one case. There is a boy that is thought
well of by all students. There is no cause whatever why he should
have been expelled. It was just simply that he wrote to the author-
ities concerning the opening on an official letter that was written to
him from his agent. It was opened up here at the office and he com-
plained of it to this agent, and the agent sent it back to Mr. Friedman.
Representative Carter. Who was his agent?
Mr. Broker. Maj. John R. Howard, at the White Earth Reser-
vation .
Representative Carter. What was his name ?
Mr. Broker. James Baker. I remember him telhng me the night
he went away. He told me this himself, that Mr. Friedman had the
letter in front of him and he asked Baker what he meant by that let-
ter, and Baker he said just what it stated. And in that letter all it
contained was the conditions and it asked his agent — that letter asked
his agent whether Mr. Friedman had authority to open students'
official letters. And Baker told him he had meant through that letter
just what it said. Then Mr. Friedman upbraided him for his social-
ism that he believed. Of course, he said it was a bad influence upon
the students, but Baker in no way whatever tried to influence such
upon any other students.
Representative Carter. Was that aU that Baker did?
Mr. Broker. Yes; that is aU.
Representative Carter. That is the only thing he did for which
he was expelled ?
Mr. Broker. Yes. There has been students that have been ex-
pelled for writing to higher authorities concerning the opening of
official letters. Now, there is another case here that was taken up,
I think it was about 1910. I remember well it was about the fu-st
summer I was here. There was a lad up here in the old guardhouse
by the name of George Manawa. The boy that was in charge of the
guardhouse at that time was Henry Blatchford. Manawa had re-
ceived a letter from his agent in Oklahoma somewhere. I don't know
who the agent is. It was opened up at the office here, and Mr. Blatch-
ford— Manawa asked Blatchford to write for him to the authorities
in Washington concerning this. Mr. Blatchford did so, and the letter
was sent back to the office, and it was found out and Blatchford was
given 15 minutes to leave.
Representative Carter. He was from Oklahoma ?
Mr. Broker. Yes.
Representative Carter. What tribe ?
Mr. Broker. I don't know.
CARLISLE IXDIAN SCHOOL. 1011
Representative Carter. Do you know what place in Oklahoma?
Mr. Broker. Blatchford, the boy that was expelled for doing this,
was a Chippewa from Wisconsin.
The Chairman. How do the pupils generally regard the superin-
tendent of the school ?
Mr. Broker. My estimation is the}' do not regard him very highly.
They did when he fu"st came here, and that was four j^ears ago last
December, but from then on I have noticed that the discipline in
general has been lowering gradually, and it was through aU this, just
what I have stated.
The Chairman. Have you talked with anyone what your state-
ment would be here ? Have you talked with Mr. Linnen ?
Mr. Broker. No, sir; I never — I did not speak to Mr. Linnen.
TESTIMONY OF ZEPANIAH SIMONS, STUDENT AND
ASSISTANT DISCIPLINARIAN.
The witness was reminded that he had been sworn.
Senator Lane. Where are you from?
Mr. Simons. Massachusetts.
Senator Lane. What do you represent?
Mr. Simons. I was supposed to take part in the cUsciphne, with
^Ir. Broker.
Senator Lane. AVhat have you to say in reference to that?
Mr. Simons. I think myself like this: I was supposed to take part
in the disciphne part of this question. At that time I was a student,
but since then I have been made a kind of employee, and it kind of
makes feehng — makes the employees — anyway, as Mr. Broker was on
disciphne, he got into the matter, and I thought I would keep out
of it myself, but as the boys hked for me to come up here
Senator Lane. Are you an employee?
Ml'. Simons. I am supposed to be an employee ?
Senator Lane. What are you doing?
Mr. Simons. I take care of athletic goods and the quarters.
Senator Lane. You are not attending school any more?
Mr. Simons. Yes, sir; I am attending school, but I am supposed
to be an emploAee. My time of schooling is not out. I have three
more years to go to school here.
The Chairman. Hov: m.uch compensation do you receive, and who
pays you ?
Mr. Simons. I thought at first that the money that was paid for
the one that took care of the athletic goods and quartei-s would
come out of the athletic money, but 1 looked into the matter and
found out the money comes really from the Government, and they
pay S25 a month for taking care of that place.
The Chairman. They pay a student then out of the Governm.ent
funds S25 a month for taking care of the athletic goods?
Mr. Simons. Athletic goods and the ({uarters the boys are in.
The Chairman. Have they been pa} ing students heretofore for that
work ?
Mr. Simons. Why, you see, my time is really up at school and i
can go outside if 1 wish. But first i would like to stay and finish
my schooling, and I .have not signed again for another term. 1 was
1012 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
here and had not signed, and so they wished nie to take that place,
and that is the way i happeaed to get it.
Tne Chairman. Tell us anything that you think we ought to be
informed of.
Mr. Simons. In regard to discinliiie?
Senator Lane. Anything you please.
The Chairman. Athletics.
Mr. Simons. As I have stated before, I thought myself it was best
to keep out of it.
Senator Lane. Best for whom ?
Mr. Simons. Best for myself to keep out of it.
The Chairman. What facts do you know ?
Mr. Simons. I could not say, really. I was put on discipline.
The Chairman. Is the discipline in the school satisfactory to you ?
Mr. Simons. No, sir; the discipline is not satisfactory.
The Chairman. How long have you been studying in school ?
Mr. Simons. Since October 15, 1908.
The Chairman. Is it as good now as when you came ?
Mr. Simons. At that time the discipline was more military, you
know.
The Chairman. Is it as good now as it was ?
Mr. Simons. It is not near as good.
Senator Lane. How old are you ?
Mr. Simons. Twenty-four years old.
The Chairman. In what respects is it worse now than when you
fii'st came here ?
Mr. Simons. Well, at the time when I fii'st came here it was
military. What I mean to say is — they had officers, you know, and
the disciplinarian himself was a military man. He was an Indian —
Mr. Venn. He understood the ways to arrange the officers and
wherein to take care of the discipline, whereas to-day the discipline
has fallen off on account of not handling the students right, I should
think. Say, for instance, the officers held up the discipline at that
time, and being dissatisfaction among the student body and not
getting justice by the head, it has formed discontent among the whole
student body, and by doing this they have lost control of the officers
of the school.
The Chairman. What evidence of disorder have you observed in
the school recently ?
Mr. Simons. I do not understand you.
The Chairman. What lack of discipline do you see ?
Mr. Simons. Well, I see boys occasionally drink once in a while.
The Chairman. Is there more drunkenness now than there was
when you first came here, Mr. Simons ?
Mr. Simons. Oh, yes, a good bit more; I should think a good bit
more than when I first came here. When I first came here the
discipline was good. It seems like everybody had something to do,
you know, to take up their time.
The Chairman. Lfnder the old system the students were relied
upon, through the military organizations in the school, to help
enforce order and preserve order? And has that been adandoned?
Mr. Simons. It has not been abandoned.
The Chairman. Has it been relaxed ?
Mr. Simons. Relaxed, I should think.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1013
The Chairman. Now, have you seen the students display evi-
dences of disrespect towards the superintendent ?
Mr. Simons. Well, I have been among the student body, but I
could not say who it came from.
The Chairman. From the student body, if j^ou want to term it
that. Have you seen them show disrespect toward the super-
intendent ?
Mr. Simons. Yes; I have.
The Chairman. On many occasions ?
Mr. Simons. Quite frequently.
The Chairman. Do you know whether it is a fact or not that the
student body as a whole do shov\^ disrespect to the superintendent?
» Mr. Simons. Yes; the student body as a whole — aU the boys,
could not say about the girls, of course.
The Chairman. Are there any young men of good standing in the
school who are the friends of the superintendent and who respect him
and try to help him along.
Mr. Simons. I myself was speaking about as far as respect was
concerned — I don't think they show much respect toward him.
Representative Stephens. Do you think it is possible for this
present superitendent to restore order in the school and build it up ?
Mr. Simons. I thmk he could not have any influence at all on the
student body if he were to stay here. I think if he were to stay here
it w^ould be worse.
Representative Stephens. And you think it would get w^orse than
it now is if he remained ?
Mr. Simons. I do. I really think it would.
The Chairman. Have you talked with Mr. Warner recently?
Mr. Simons. Yes; I have.
The Chairman. Have you talked with him about testifying here ?
Mr. Simons. Yes; that was the reason I did not want to testify
here, because the fellow that was taking care of this place over here,
he left, and — of course, he did not ask me, but he asked through
him if I was taking part in this work, and he told him, he said, "Mr.
Simons is a quiet fellow; he never says nothing and never does any-
thing, and I don't beheve he is taking part in this." But he did not
tell him to ask me if I were, so I did not say anything. Of course, if
he had asked me I should have told him yes.
The Chairman. Did Mr. Warner talk to you about your testimony
here ?
Mr. Simons. No; he did not ask me. The only thing I know is
that Clement Hill that used to be over there — IVIr. Friedman called
him up to the office and asked who was going to take the place, and
he said he had recommended me. Mr. Friedman asked Clement
then — he did not think I would make a very good one, on account I
was taking part in this trouble toward the head of the school, you
know. So Clement says he did not think I were. He said, "I mil
take your word for it." He told Clement, but he did not ask me.
Senator Lane. How long have you been occupymg this position?
Mr. Simons. Well, I have just been in there since Monday, but I
knew I was going to get it for two weeks. I thought the best tiling
for me to do afterwards was to keep quiet, not because I w^as afraid
or anything, but just because I thougnt it would be — I don't know
what you call it.
1014 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman You thought it would be good policy?
Mr. Simons. Yes.
Representative Carter. Mr. Warner did not tell you not to testify ?
Mr. Simons. He did not ask me to.
'Representative Carter. He did not ask you to or not to?
Mr. Simons. He never said anything to me regardhig this at all
only through Clement.
The Chairman. Did you see him to-day about testifying here
to-night ?
MJr. Simons. No; I did not, because one of the boys out here, one
of the officers, brought around a slip of paper and said he would like
for me to be here at 6 o'clock.
Senator Lane. These gentlemen here ,
Mr. Simons. No; he is outside.
Senator Lane. Thes? gentlemen here selected you to accompany
them?
Mr. Simons. I do not know who selected me. I know we had a
meeting one night and my name was on a slip. Of course, I was
willing to take part m it myself at that time, but I thought it best
afterwards not to on account of this.
Representative Carter. You did not want to take chances of
your job?
Mi\ Simons. No; not that
Representative Carter. That was a pretty good thing to do.
Senator Lane. You felt that inasmuch as you were working for
the institution it would not be epiite proper?
Ml'. Simons. That is the idea.
Senator Lane. I think probably you are right about that, too.
Mr. Simons. Because it did not make very good feeling, being
among the employees.
Senator Lane. No; nor does it look well for you to be in here
while the students are giving their evidence. Had you though of
that ?
Mr. Simons. Yes, sir; I thought of it.
The Chairman. How did the studenits happen to come here, rep-
resented by committees on the part of the young men in the school
and young laelies in the school ?
Mr. Simons. I believe first there was talk among the boys that
we should liave a meeting, so one night we came from the dining
room, and we all niarcheel right u]) here in troops and we all came in
here. Then we selected a president to take charge of the meeting.
So the president was chosen, and I suppose he and his associates at
that time selected the ones they thought could represent the school.
The Chairman. The action, then, was s])ontaneous on tlie part
of the students themselves, and arose from their dissatisfaction with
conditions that existed in tind about the school?
Mr. Simons. Arose from their dissatisfaction — I could not say
what you call it ; the dissatisfaction of the school — the way the things
are carried on.
The Chairman. Now, liave }ou seen or interviewed tl^e ins])ector
for the Government, Mr. Linnen?
Mr. Simons. No, sir.
The Chairman. 1 want to ask, in tjiis connection, of the young
ladies and young gentlen en v.^ho are h.ere re])resenting the meeting
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1015
that has been spoken of, vdiether they have convei'sed with Mr.
Lmnen or told him what then* testimony or statements would be. If
any of you have, we would be glad to know it. Mr. Yuda and Mr.
Chase ? The otlier say they have not, I believe.
Mr. Chase. We asked him when this v.as going to be.
The Chairman. I asked which of you had made statements to Mr.
Linnen as to what your testimony was going to be.
A Young Lady. Miss and I told Mr, Linnen — we asked him
how we should carry on our part and what was expected of us, and he
told us to give only the facts, and they were to be true, and every-
thing we brought up was to be true. We got permission from him to
carry on our meetings Avithout the matron. The first meeting we
had was with a number of girls, about 50, and that 50 selected a com-
mittee to represent them, and we are the six here, and we have
investigated as far as we could.
Representative Carter. You did not talk to Mr. Linnen about
what you would testify to when you came here ?
A Young Lady. No, sir; he just told us to look into the matter;
that was aU.
Representative Carter. You did not tell him what you were going
to say.
A Young Lady. No, sir.
Representative Carter. And he did not teU you what to say?
The Chairman. What I am trying to find out is whether Mr.
Linnen has been unduly active in obtaining testimony.
Mr. Yuda. In reference to me, I raised my hand, I spoke of con-
ditions that existed, but I did not tell him what I was going to say.
The Chairman, He did not make any suggestion to you '(
Mr. Yuda, Nothing whatever.
The Chairman. You did not detail to him your testimony ?
Mr. Yuda, Not all of it. I just gave him an outline as to my per-
sonal trouble.
Mr. Chase. I had spoken to Mr. Linnen, telling him that there
was a committee, and each one had a subject, and my subject was
expulsions. And he told me to get the facts and tell the truth about
everyone.
The Chairman, You came to Mr, Linnen first?
Mr. Chase, No, sir.
Tiie Chairman, I thought you said you had spoken to him and
told him there was a committee?
Mr. Chase. I did.
The Chairman, So he told you to get the facts and present them ?
Mr. Chase. I told him what my duty was on the committee, and
he said to get the real facts and the truth.
Senator Lane. Did Mr. Warner suggest to you or tell you it would
be better for you not to be seen here to-night ?
Mr. Simons. No. I know it is the feeling amongst the employees
not to do that.
Senator Lane, Mr, Warner did not tell you to do that?
Mr, Simons. No.
Senator Lane, He did not suggest it?
Mr, Sevions. He did not suggest it to me, you know.
Senator Lane. Who did?
1016 CARUSLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. Simons. ISh. Hill, you kninv, tlio follow that was boforo me;
ho told mo about this. Ho said it was host not to tako part in this
if wo woro wishing to bo thoro.
Sonator Lane. That was friondly atlvioo on his ]>art ?
Mr. Simons. Yes. sir.
Ro]u-osontativo Caktf.k. All tho omplovoos do not sharo that
fooling, do thov, that you ^luniUl not tostify boforo this oonnnit too ?
Mr." Simons. I oould not swoar to it mysolf, Init T lioliovo somo-
timos thoy intluonoo boys not to tako part in it.
Koprosontativo Carter. But your to^timony only goos to certain
omplovoos ^ You do not think the entire force of employees, every
one of them, have that feehng?
Mr. Simons. No, sir: I don't think every one of them, but a few.
The Chairman. Did anyone tell you that it would be best not to
testify here I
Mr'. Simons. Yes, sir: Hill, tho hoy tlnit just loft.
The Chairman. Did ho say who told him io say that. AMiom did
he speak for (
Mv. Simons. 'Yni <oo. ho rocommomlod mo, but ho did not know
1 WAS taking }nirt in thi-^, and ho said to mo, "I know well you are not
taking part" in this, " 1 suppose he had not attended these meetings,
and I did not toll him 1 wn^. That is the only reason; if he had
asked me 1 shindd toll iiim.
TESTIMONY OF MONTEEVILLE YUDA. FORMER STUDENT.
The witness was duly sworn by tho chairman.
The Chairman. \A1iero is your home ^
Ml". YuDA. 1 hve near Syracuse. X. Y.
The Chairman. \Yliat business arc you in ?
Ml-. YvDA. I have a restaurant ami dohcatosson store.
The Chairman. "VMiere is it ?
Mr. YuDA. On the other side of tho railroad tracks.
The Chairman. Near here I
Mr. YuDA. Within hah' a mdo.
The Chairman. Were you formerly a student here?
Ml". YiT)A. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How long wore you a student I
Mr. YuDA. I was here a little over live years. I just left in May,
after graduating last year.
The Chairman. How did you come to leave ?
Ml-. YuDA. Well, it is beciiuse I took the initiative steps in behalf
of better conditions on the part of the students in general. The whole
trouble has been that the superintendent had suspected me of being
on the inside
Represontative Carter. On the inside of what i
Ml-. YuDA. Of conditions.
Senator Lane. Of the good conditions ^
Mr. Yn)A. Of the bad conditions. And he thought that such
influences as mine was a detriment to the institution. I went along,
drifting, not saving much, but keeping my eyes open. Charges were
gotten up against me and they were circulated, and through some
friends of mine they ]nit mo next to what was going on.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1017
Representative Carter. WTio were the friends that put you next?
:Mr. Yuda. I would Hke to withhold that.
Representative Carter. AU right.
Mr. Yuda. I was told about this, that it had been conversed in the
office what was going on. Immediately on finding that out I ap-
peared before the disci[)linarian, stating I did not think it was right
for them to go behind my back and try to bring up anything against
me, that I was here, and that they should bring it before my face.
On finding those things were said about me I went up to the super-
intendent and told him the state of my condition. He said, "Well,
I believe those things are so." I said "Mr. Friedman, will you allow
them to prove it ? Give me a trial." " No; I do not think it is neces-
sary." "Well, will vou allow me to prove them?" "Well, no."
"Well," I said, "Will you let them stand?" "Yes; I am going to
support my disciplinarians in w^hatever they do, whether they are
right or \vrong." I said, "Take my name off that roll. I won't have
it any longer in an administration w^here you abridge the right of a
fellow having justice."
The Chairman. What w^ere you charged with?
Mr. Ylt)a. He charged me with never sleeping on the grounds;
that I was in hotels every night. I defied him
The Chairman. What were the facts about that ?
Mr. Yuda. There w^as no facts about it. That is what they could
not prove.
The Chairman. I do not care about what they could not prove.
As a matter of fact, did you sleep away from the school frequently?
Mr. Yuda. Never slept away from the school, only on occasions I
left the city with the people I w^as working with, making ice cream;
never have I slept aw' ay from this institution. I had the night watch-
man, I had the inspectors, I had my roommates, I had all the boys at
my table in the mess
The Chairman. You were prepared to prove that the charge was
untrue ?
Mr. Yuda. Untrue; and he would not prove them, so I was ^villing
to prove them. I told him to take my name off, and he said, "I will
consider that." In the meantime, Gus Welch and several boys had
gotten together. I said, "Boys, I am going to go to Washington."
I said, "I am not going to see Mr. Abbott; it is useless for the students
to write to Mr. Abbott. How many complaints have been sent in
that he will not recognize, and I am going to go above his head. I
will see the Secretary of the Interior."
Well, this petition was gotten out, but nobody dared to sign his
name to that. The moment you took the initiative step, out you
went as an undesirable student from the institution. I knew^ it was
only a matter of a few days before I would get my pink slip, and while
I was here I was going to do what I could to better conditions, if I was
to be a martyr. I appealed to Congressman Rupley in Washington,
and received a card from him which I presented before the First
Assistant of Secretary Lane — Mr. Myer, I think.
He made arrangements for me to see the Secretary, and at that
time this land proposition, concerning Japan and California, was
before the Cabinet, and it was an early meeting that morning of the
Cabinet. The same morning I had a meeting with Secretary Lane
at 10 o'clock, and he went to the meeting to hear what Mr. Bryan had
1018 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
to say. I found I could not stay any longer, because my finances
were going very low, and it would mean for me to stay over to-morrow,
which I could not have done, so I brought the petition then before
IMr. Myer, and stated also about the strapping of the students here
and the licking of the boys there who were placed in the guardhouse,
by the employees.
Representative Carter. How often is that done ?
Mr. YuDA. That is very seldom done here. I have never known
that done before.
The Chairman. What incident do you refer to ?
Representative Carter. When you say "strapping of the boys"
what do you mean ?
Mr. YuDA. You see, I had that in the petition. I brought it be-
fore Mr. Myer, and Mr. Myer looked that over. It also stated about
opening the students' mail here. If mail would come here in the
name of a boy, at the wiU of Mr. Friedman he would tear it open.
Representative Carter. How many times did he do that ?
Mr. YuDA. A number of times.
Representative Carter. Give us the instances of it.
Mr. YuDA. If I could recall — I never carry any notes or anything
to place those things down. I can recall of an instance that he opened
Grover Allen's letters on two occasions, taldng out a check. I think
they had notified the boy about it. I think the Indian agent from
Oklahoma notified him. They have never sent him any of that
money.
Representative Carter. Give us the other one.
Mr. YuDA. Edward Fox, and I have kjxown of George Manawa.
Representative Carter. Were there any others?
Mr. Yuda. I would like to give them to you, but I can not recol-
lect. I have never thought of that before, but there is fully 20 or 25,
possibly 30, that the students here can give you, of opening their
mail. Now, it appeared here that some of these boys wrote to Wash-
ington, and the Postmaster General got after Mr. Friedman for this.
Now, I also stated about the bank books to Mr. Myer, to refer to
Mr. Lane. Now, the idea of a student here — go to any student
around here, and say, "How much money have you got in the
bank?" He says, "I don't know." They don't kiiow. Ask them
what interest — they know what interest they shoidd get on the dol-
lar, but the question is as to how much they get. They do not know.
They have no way of keeping it. They have no bank book to keep
track of their money.
Representative Carter. Did you have money when you were here ?
Mr. YuDA. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. Did you have it in the bank?
Mr. YuDA. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. Did the bank pay interest on it ?
Mr. Yuda. That I don't know. I don't think I ever got a cent of
interest.
Representative Carter. Did you take the pains to find out from
Mr. Friedman ?
Mr. Yuda. Oh, no. Mr. Friedman don't have anything to do
with that.
Representative Carter. Who does?
Mr. Yuda. Mr. Miller, the banker.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1019
Representative Carter. Did you try to find out from Mr. Miller?
Mr. YuDA. No, sir.
Representative Carter. Is Mr. Miller here?
Mr. YuDA. He does not stay on the grounds.
Representative Carter. He is a banker downtown?
Mr. YuDA. No; he is the banker here.
Representative Carter. Did you never try to find out from him
how much money you had ?
Mr. YuDA. No, sir. Oh, I would go up occasionally to find out
how much I had.
Representative Carter. Will, would he refuse to tell you?
Mr. YuDA. No; I don't think he ever refused.
Representative Carter. He would always tell you how much
money you had ?
Mr. YuDA. Yes; h'^ would show me.
Representative Carter. Then what is wrong about it ?
Mr. YuDA. Here is the point. If a sfudent has money down there
in that bank he should certainly keep track of his own matters and
not 1< ave it to him.
Representative Carter. The student should keep track?
Mr. YuDA. Yes.
Representative Carter. Is the banker to blame because the stu-
dent does not do that ?
Mr. YuDA. Who is to blame ?
Representative Carter. The student, I should think.
Mr. YuDA.' Why not issue him a bank book ?
Representative Carter. Did you ask for a bank book ?
Mr. YuDA. What good would it do ?
Representative Carter. How do you know what good it would
do ? Did you ask for a bank book ?
Mr. YuDA. No, sir; I never asked for any.
Representative Carter. Now, then, you are blaming somebody
for not giving you a bank book when you did not ask for it.
Mr. YuDA. I think we had bank books once. We had bank books
at one time here. They were withdrawn from the students, taken
away from them.
Representative Carter. You have not any complaint to make
about their being withdrawn unless you made some effort to get
them.
The Chairman. When were they withdrawn ?
Mr. YuDA. They were withdrawal, I think, after two years of ^li.
Friedman's administration.
The Chairman. How were they withdrawn ?
Mr. YuDA. Taken in.
Representative Stephens. They ceased issuing them ?
^ir. YuDA. Ceased issuing them. That money for two or three
years was kept by the banker. No doubt it was kept all right.
But you ask any student how much interest money have they got,
ask any of these. Nobody knows.
Representative Carter. Did you take any occasion to try to find
out why the bank books were withdrawn ?
Mr. YuDA. No; I never took that step. I was supposed to be on the
inside of things, and if I took that step I would not be here to-day.
1020 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Representative Carter. Do you really think that if you went up
and asked why they would have expelled you ?
Mr. YuDA. It is hard to say. They have expelled fellows for less
things than that.
Representative Carter. For what?
Mr. YuDA. Well, when they wrote.
Representative Carter. Of course, we do not approve of that, but
there would be no man so foolish, I think, as to expel anybody, to
take the chance of expelling a boy and losing his position for the
simple reason that he asked why he did not give him a bank book.
Mr. YuDA. I give you an instance. Just two or three weeks ago a
boy was expelled here. What was he expelled for? ''You are
loafing. " The true fact of it was the boy was absent half an hour.
The Chairman. Who was that?
Mi\ YuDA. Louis Schweigman. The true fact is he was absent
half an hour from his work.
Representative Carter. You can not deny that loafing ought to
be in violation of the rules. Now, you are coming to another point,
the fact whether he loafed or not. The mere asking for a book, Mr.
Yuda, would not cause a boy to be expelled, I do not think.
Mr. Yuda. No, I don't know whether it would or not; but I never
took the chance.
The Chairman. After you left here what happened ? You went
away from here. Did you have any further transactions with
Supt. Friedman?
Mr. Yuda. Yes, sir; I did. I left Carlisle, and I went home and
stayed home a couple of days, and I came back. In the meantime I
had a job working. Right after I graduated I stayed here at school
with the intentions of Mr. Friedman — he had made several promises
he would send me to Conway Hall; that he wanted me to become a
lawyer, and he would do all these things for me. When the time
came he did not do it.
So I went and got a position here, a place I had worked four years
during my vacations. I had learned to make ice cream and took
charge of a plant. In the meantime, while I was expelled, I was
working there. I went home and came back to my job right away.
I went to work. Mr. Friedman was wise that I was there. He drove
down there in his team and demanded that I should leave. He told
my boss that I should be dismissed at once; that if he would hold me
there he would discontinue the use of his ice cream on his grounds.
The Chairman. How do you know?
Mr. Yuda. I heard him. I hoard the boss say it. Now, the boss
told Mr. Friedman — I was within five or six yards from him listening.
He said, "What is the matter with Yuda? "We always found him to
be a fine boy. I never could bring anything against him. He has
worked here for me for four years." '' Well, I tell you his influence in
this town is a detriment to the institution." ''In what way?"
"Why, he has a tendency to have the boys rebel when they are enjoy-
ing fine privileges over there." "Well," he says, "You are the only
one I ever hear speak of it. The other students don't sav anything
Hke that."
Well, my boss told me this about the ad'air, and told nw that I
would have to go, but it was hard, and to stick around awhile in the
town and as soon as things quieted down I could come back and
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1021
always find a job with him. Then I made a proposition with my
boss that if I would use his ice-cream wagon I would get customers.
I would run a horse and buy the ice cream from him, and go and make
a hving for myself on my own hook.
This was accepted by my boss, and everything went along for three
or four weeks, and there was no doubt that he had somebody about
looking me up. He appeared there just when I was hitching my team
to go out, and he drove there with his black team, and he got out, and
he said, ''Now, look here. I thought I told you about letting this
young man go." " Well, he is not working for me now; he is working
for himself." "Well, I don't want you to sell him any ice cream.
That is just the same as you having him working here."
Now, mind you, sir, in this town I was a graduate of this institu-
tion. I had defied them to bring anything against me. I had tried
to play the part of a man, and have kept my head aboveboard,
because right under the shadow of this institution as my guidance I
want to be a credit to the institution and to the Indian, and there
was nobody that could have turned me aside. But right in the town
was boys that had been former students of this school three years ago
that were in the lowest places of the town, drinking and carousing,
and he knew that because the policemen came to him on occasions
and appealed to him. Now, he came to me and kept me from my
bread and butter, and he allowed such a fellow, which was a disgrace
to the institution, to have the right under the shadow of the insti-
tution.
The Chairman. Wliat is the name of your employer?
Mr. YuDA. B. W. Hostler.
Representative Stephens. Wliat is the name of the Indian that
was drunk?
Mr. YuDA. John McGinnis.
He discouraged me. He got me to a state that I did not know
what to do. Wliether he did it or not, this action of the discipli-
narian— I think it comes directly from him because he would not take
any such authority as to go around and get a policeman to watch me
and have them try to lead me to things and get up a lot of stuff
that is rotten and no truth to it whatever. And when I found out
that they had such a thing as an affidavit I knew my conscience was
clear, and I said, "You have got an affidavit for me; arrest me." He
said, "What affidavit have I got?" I said, "I know you have;
arrest me." He said, "Well, I have just a little stuff that the people
have said." He knew it was so, but they refused to push it because
they knew it was all false. If they had ever brought that up I do
not think you gentlemen would have been here to-night, because I
would have told the court.
Now, while those things were against me I was brought to tliis
judge, and the detective says, "Why, I have investigated the con-
ditions of this young man, and found out they are not so as they have
been stated to you." The detective told this to the judge. The
judge saw me — Mr. Sadler. He said, "Young man, do you tliink it is
very good for you to stand liere and fight against the wishes of Mr.
Friedman? Don't you think it is best for you to leave the com-
munity and go elsewhere and get a start?" I says, "Your honor, I
tliink that while I am under the guidance of this institution, under
the very door of it, if I should feel it would be there to guide me, that
1022 ' CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
the influence of the faculty here would always keep my head up and
aboveboard." I says, ''If I could not make a start here, why I
could not make a start a thousand miles away from here." I said,
"I was working for a man here four years, and I am still on the job,
and he is a man that any amount of money has been left in my
hands "
The Chairman. What did they charge you with?
Mr. YuDA. They never pushed the charges.
The Chairman. How did they get you before the court ?
Mr. YuDA. I appealed to the detective to arrest me and that he had
a warrant. He denied having one. He said, "I wiU just take you
up here and we will talk to the judge." He was in his office at the
time.
The Chairman. What court is he judge of?
Mr. YuDA. Cumberland County; the county court.
The Chairman. Ho advised you to loave?
Mr. YuDA. Yes.
Representative Stephens. What is the judge's name?
Mr. YuDA. Judge Sadler.
The Chairman. You did not leave ?
Mr. YuDA. No, sir.
The Chairman. Was there any further effort to throw you out of
employment ?
Mr. Yltda. Yes, sir. He then told my boss that nobody in town
would hire me. And it is true enough, for I never went around for it,
but I left the town
The Chairman. Where did you go ?
Mr. Yuda. I went to Chambersburg, and took charge of a much
larger ice-cream plant.
The Chairman. How long did you stay there ?
Mr. Yltda. I stayed there August and September.
The Chairman. You were not disturbed there ?
Mr. Yltda. No, sir; and they did not know my whereabouts.
Now, I was telling you what the judge told me
The Chairman, t think we have had enough of that.
Mr. Yltda. I want to tell you where they went to work and would
not interfere with me. He said to me "Young man," I told him,
"Your honor, you will stand b}' 3^our convictions when you know
you are right." He says, "Yes." I said, "So will I. You don't
know the conditions between Mr. Friedman and me." And I ex-
plained to him. He says, "Young man, you stay here in this town.
I am through with you. You sta}^ right here and make a man of
yourself." And there has not been any trouble since that time.
Representative Carter. Had you been coming to the school or
having any communication with the boys at the time Mr. Friedman
went down to your boss and told him he must fire you ?
Mr. Yuda. No, sir; that was only three days after I had arrived
back.
Representative Carter. Had the boys been coming to you ?
Mr. Yuda. None whatever.
Representative Carter. You had not been trying to incite any
trouble with the boys ?
Mr. Yuda. I kept myself clear of anybody from the school, because
I did not want anybody know I was in the town.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1023
Representative Carter. And you have not ever since you left the
town taken part in any movement against the faculty ?
Mr. Yuda. I have always stood for the right.
Representative Carter. But that does not answer the question.
Have you ever since then taken any part in any movement against
the faculty ?
Mr. Yuda. Not directly.
Representative Carter. What do you mean ?
Mr. Yuda. I mean I did not oppose them directly. Wlien things
were brought to me, when the boys would ask me something, I would
say, "The best thing to do is to go to your superintendent." They
gay to me, ''He won't reason with us." It is true; it is the same in
my case.
Representative Carter. Have you in any way been a disturbing
element in the school since you left it ?
Mr. Yuda. No, sir.
Representative Carter. You do not have any malice in your
breast for Mr. Friedman ?
Mr. Yuda. No, sir; not since I left the school.
(All the female witnesses present were duly sworn by the chairman.)
TESTIMONY OF MISS , A STUDENT.
The Chairman. You are one of the committee representing the
young lady students in Carlisle Institute who wish to present some
matters to the commission ?
Miss . Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Very well. You may proceed and make your
statement.
Miss . I took up about expelling some of the girls. It has
been this last year where there has been more girls expelled for less
reason, and they have kept girls here that ought to have been sent
away. Last spring there was a girl — she never did anything out of
the way or anything, but she was full of mischief.
The Chairman. What is her name ?
Miss — . . She was sent home.
Senator Lane. Where ?
Miss . To her home in South Dakota.
Senator Lane. Where are you from ?
Miss . Minnesota. The head matron told her that she was
going home, and perhaps in two or three months, when she improved
her conduct she could come back. She did not tell her that she was
expelled. But the girl told her she v/ould come back as long as she
was here, so she might as well tell her she was expelled.
The Chairman. What were the charges against her?
Miss . She does not know herself.
The Chairman. Do you know ?
Miss . I was speaking to her cousin about it, and she said
that was just being mischievous.
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Miss . Miss case — that was another incident. Mr.
Friedman had no reason to expel her. Of course, I was more of a
personal friend with , and she rather told me more of her
1024 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
troubles. She was telling me about this time when she was speaking
to Miss Ridenour about her not having enough sleep, and Miss Riden-
our was trying to get her to apologize for this, and did not
think she had reason. From time to time Miss Ridenour would call
her into the office and ask for an apology, and would not
acknowledge it at all, and she simply ignored Miss Ridenour at that
time. She would not speak unless she really had to.
It was at one of the recitations that she sent for .
was all ready to go. simply pulled off her party gown and
put on her everyday dress and she went down. She said, "You are
not to go." said, "What have I done?" This happened
about a month afterwards. Miss Ridenour stated the case, the
statements she made to her in the assembly room. only
smiled, and she said, "Is that all?" And she never said any more
until after that Miss Ridenour called her in and said she had taken
this matter up to Mr. Friedman, and she said, "I told Mr. Friedman
to reduce you to ranks." Miss Ridenour did not reduce Miss
to ranks at all. stepped into the ranks on her own accord
after ]\Iiss Ridenour passed the remark that some of the girls were
not fit to be officers, and took it Miss Ridenour meant her.
As I stated before, she took this matter up to Mr. Friedman, and Miss
Ridenour said that Mr. Friedman said she did the right thing by
reducing Miss to ranks, and he also stated that was enough
to dismiss any girl from the school.
Of course Miss — — • — - did not heed this statement, because she
thought Miss Ridenour was just threatening her. About two or three
weeks ago, when we were all in school line, Miss Ridenour was stand-
ing at the door and she called into the ofiice, and — ■ •
thought she was after her again for the apology. One of the boys
stated Miss Ridenour said, "Well, , I have waited long enough
for this apology, and Mr. Friedman and I have decided to send you
home." — — — said, "All right. What time do I leave?" Miss
Ridenour said on the 10.45, but they had to leave the grounds at 10
o'clock. — ■ said all right, and she was under guard from the
time she went into the office until she left Harrisburg. They did not
give her any spending money from the office from the funds she did
have up there, but they just simply shipped her home without any
warning. • — went home — and that was not any reason what-
ever. She never had other punishments. The way we girls look at
it, she is put on the same level with girls that have been expelled for
immoral conduct.
At that time Miss Ridenour sort of knew about the meetings the
girls were having. Well, just before that four or five of the girls got
into trouble and they are still here, and she has not done anj^thing but
put them in the lockup.
The Chairman. What trouble?
Miss ■ — . They met boys down in the bathroom there — -and she
expelled • for such a simple reason as that.
The Chairman. Your point is that Miss — had com-
mitted no serious offense and she was expelled, and that other } oung
ladies have at least been charged with the very serious offense of
infraction of the moral proprieties, and they have not been so severely
punished ?
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1025
Miss ■. Yes, sir. It was more for impudence that
was expelled, but she was registered after she was sent home as a
graduate.
The Chairman. Do 3'ou know, as a matter of fact, that she was
expslled, and registered as a graduate?
Miss . Yes, sir. There were other girls that were expelled
on the same occasion, for impudence, last spring.
The Chairman. Who were they ?
Miss . They were , — ,
, , and .
The Chairman. Th? girls whose names you have just given us
were all expelled for impudence ?
Miss . Yes, sir; Miss was expelU'd for impudence,
jind I have not giv^n the girls' nam:'S on the list here that are still
hold that ought to be ^xpelled for the trouble the;y hav^ mad?, for
the way pe>ple Icx^k down on the rest of we girls that are trying to
do right.
The Chairman. Do you want to give them ?
Miss — — — . Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right. Who are they?
Miss . They are , ,
and — ■ — — — — — . These girls met the boys down in the
bathroom, and they were only put in the lockup for a week.
The Chairman. V^Tiat bathroom do you refer to ?
Miss — — — . Our bathroom in the girls' c{uarters. Tlien there has
Deen some giiis expelled for bad conduct, that is, for the same reason,
but it did not give right out what they were expelled for. To just
go back, they certainly deserved to be expelled, but they just put
down "time out."
Here is one case : — . She got into trouble out in he
country, and she was sent home from out in the countr}'^; also this
. She came in the fall of 1911, and she was in the
condition that she ought not to be with younger girls here, and she
went to the country, and she came back and stayed until Christmas
in the hospital, I think it was. She was taken to the hospital, and
from there, I guess, after she had childbirth, she was sent home.
Representative Carter. What was her name ?
Miss ■ . . She was a Sioux girl.
Senator Lane. When was this ?
Miss . 1911.
The Chairman. Have there been many cases of that sort?
Miss . There has been, similar to that; but we think it is
Mr. Friedman's place to find out the conditions of the girls when they
come here. And such cases have existed before; that is, the girls
have been in that condition before coming here, and they are not
here long enough before they are sent back home. Of course that
reflects on the school.
The Chairman. There is no doubt about that.
Senator Lane. What did she say about this young lady that became
a mother ?
Miss . Just sent home on leave.
Representative Carter. How long wi^s she here. Miss ?
35601— PT 11—14 .5
1026 CARLISLE INDLii^ SCHOOL.
Miss . I really don't kiiDAV just when she came, and I was at
the hospital at the time she returned from the country. That was in
the fall.
Representative Carter. Can you estiinate how long it was?
Miss . I was there all winter during the year of 1911, and she
came along about October.
Representative Carter. And when did she leave?
Miss . She was sent to this hospital — the Maternity Hospital
in Philadelphia — along about Christmas time.
Representative Carter. In 1911 ?
Miss . Yes, sir; or February, and she was not there two
weeks when she had her child; and I guess after she was able she was
sent home. Mr. Friedman was going to allow this girl to stay here at
this hospital and have her child, and of course all this time the stu-
dents were laughing about it and taking it as a joke. Some of the
girls got up a petition and took it to Mr. Friedman, but he did not
pay any attention to their pleas about this thing; but finally they got
up a petition and got the girls to sign it, asking for this girl to be sent
to some hospital in Philadelphia. Of course, after he saw this peti-
tion, he had the girl taken to the hospital; but I think that if the girls
had not got this petition he would have left her here; and, of course,
that would have been some disgrace to this institution.
The Chairman. There is no doubt. That is a very embarrassing
and regrettable incident. Wherein do the young ladies blame Mr.
Friedman for that? What do they think he should have done that
he did not do or that he did do that he should not have done ?
Miss — . I should think he would have sent this girl home as
soon as he found out she was this way. Instead of that he kept her
here at the hospital and had her promenading from the hospital to his
ojffice.
The Chairman. And then, when she was sent home, the entry in
the record was a false one ?
Miss — — — . Yes, sir.
The Chairman. As to the reason?
Miss . Yes, sir.
Another incident is • — . She worked for the Warners,
while her sweetheart was a photographer down here. Of course, he
was an Indian boy, and he was studying the photograph trade, I
worked at Warners myself, and — was working up there, and
she was left alone, I suppose. Mrs. Warner had gone to Harrisburg,
or somewhere else, and Mr. Warner was attending to his duties
around on the grounds, and tliis young man went over there and
paid her a visit, and Mr. Weber saw him go in there, and he knew
that the Warners were not home, and he reported it to the head-
quarters up at the office, and Mr. Friedman said it was all right,
tnere was no harm. Shortly after that that girl was sent home in
disgrace.
Senator Lane. Where was she from?
Miss . She was from Wisconsin.
Representative Carter. She was a student at that time ?
Miss . She was a student.
Representative Carter. What was she? A Chippewa?
Miss . Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. Are you a Chippewa ?
CARLISLE INDIAJST SCHOOL. 1027
Miss . Yes, sir.
That is about all about expolling. Of course, these other girls
had reasons for being expelled. They were put down ''expelled,"
and some, ''failed to return."
The Chairman. Do )'ou know why that is done? Do you know
what the reason is for making that false record?
j\liss . The only way I can see is that Mr. Friedman has
expelled so many students with such little reason he is ashamed to
put down on the record "expelled."
The CiiAiRMAX. But in at least some of these cases the expulsion
w^as imperative. What is the motive, if you know it, or can explain
it, for not stating the actual reason f(»r the expulsion?
^liss — ■ . As the girls were expelled, I guess he saw he had
expelled some girls without reason, aiid wlioi he came to the real
reason he was so ashamed to put down what the reason was
The Chairman. He thought that to disclose the real facts in con-
nection ^\ith that would reflect upon the students of the school?
Miss — ■ . Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now, I take it you are a representative student
here, from your appearance and manner, and the fact that you act
as one of tJfiis committee. How long have you been in this school?
Miss . I am going on my fifth year. I came August 27, 1909.
The Chairman. Have you had ajiy trouble in the matter of dis-
cipHne since you have been in the school ?
Miss . No, sir; I have always tried to carry myself as a lady.
The Chairman. And you have never been disciplined seriously ?
Miss . No, sir.
The Chairman. What is the estimation in which the superin-
tendent is held by the young lady pupils in the school ?
Miss . Well, as a rule, I don't think 3"ou wiU find one out of
every ten of the girls that have any respect for Mr. Friedman — or for
his wife, as far as that is concerned.
The Chairman. Both of them lack the confidence and the respect
of the pupils ?
Miss . Yes, sir. In the first place, his wife is not the
woman that ought to be on the grounds for we girls to follow the
example, because the way she goes around here on the campus
sometimes is simply disgraceful. We girls have seen her time and
again when the boys were pla3dng on their instruments over here,
when they happened to be coming from the club she would go out
here and sldrt-dance and Idck until you could see up to her knees.
Mr. Denny was standing there one time when she was performing
these acts.
Senator IjANE. Was her husband around ?
Miss . Once, that I remember of. He was coming up here
wlien he had just come out of the dining haU, and lie was coming up,
and he called out to her, ''Oh, honey, I will pay for it,'' and sue
said, ''I have paid for it already." And it just happened some of
the boys were playing on their trombones, and she started on lier
skirt-dance, and she went on — well, she carried it a httle too far,
and after Mr. Friedman got up on the porch they started to play
peek-a-boo around those pillars there, and they acted what I would
call silly for a man that was ruUng over the students that are here.
1028 CARLISLE INDIAN- SCHOOL.
They went in, and they have presented such conduct at our evening
gatherings here on different occasions.
Senator Lane. You know of occasions, you say, when they set
that kind of example before the students ?
Miss . Yes, sir. At tliese dances when the orchestra is
playing Mrs. Friedman goes around with her skirt up to her knees.
Anybody could tell you tliat she has presented herself in that respect.
Representative Stephens. Was he there ?
Miss . Yes, sir; he was there, and he would go around.
And the way Mr. Friedman yells at the girls — he does not speak to
us like a gentleman should speak to young girls that he was trying
to make ladies of. He would yell, "Hello, there," instead of saying
"Good morning," or tipping his hat. He would talk to us as if we
did not have any manners.
The Chairman. And those instances have caused the young ladies
in the school to lose all respect for him ?
Miss . Yes, sir. Another incident : One day I was coming
over from one of the teacher's rooms, and there was several girls
playing on the band stand, and he happened to be coming up on this
farther walk, and he was coming down the middle walk, and these
girls were playing. Of course, that is the only recreation time we
have, after school. And it happened they were playing up there
puss-in-a-corner, and they were screaming and enjoying themselves.
And he said, "Oh, there, you savages," or, "Oh, you savages" — he
called them savages anyhow, and I thought it was very rude of him.
Another time as I was coming up the steps, he said, "Hello, there,"
and I spoke to him. I said, "Good evening." He went on; I don't
know where he was going. That is not the only time he called the
girls savages.
The Chairman. What age are you ?
Miss •^. I am 19. I will be 20 next month.
The Chairman. You eat \\ith the pupils in the dining room, do
you?
Miss . No, sir; at the big dining room.
The Chairman. Where the young lady students eat '.
Miss . Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Wliat about the food that is being served over
there ?
Miss . The food we have been having lately is somewhat
better than it has been.
The Chairman. Since when ?
Miss . Since Mr. Linnen has been there.
The Chairman. Since the inspector came?
Miss . Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Can you tell us in what particular it has been
improved ?
Miss . For a while here we students were not allowed a
second helping of bread at all. Of course, we girls do not need it
as much as the boys, because the boys work harder, and they do
not allow the boys as much bread— well, in fact, the whole student
body did not have enough bread at all. And there would be lots of
bread in the kitchen, as one of the boj^s stated.
Representative Stephens. What do they (hi with it ?
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1029
Miss . I don't know. And when we asked the dining-room
matron she said that was ]\Ir. Friedman's orders. He would call them
up and give them instructions. When we asked Mi'. Zeamcr about
the bread he said, ''That is Mr. Friedman's orders."
The Chairman. What is one helping?
Miss . Two plates on each table.
The Chairman. And how many ladies?
Miss . Ten at each table.
The Chairman. How many pieces of bread are there on it? What
I am trying to get at is whether they were making a reasonable
allowance.
Senator Lane. More than one slice apiece?
Miss . Sometimes just one slice.
Representatiye Stephens. How large a piece would that be?
Miss . About that large, I suppose [indicating].
Representatiye Stephens. About 3 inches square?
Miss . Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. How thick?
Miss . Just the way the girls cut it— sometimes an inch
thick.
Representative Stephens. Never over an inch thick?
Miss . No, sir. Lately we have been having two or three
vegetables.
Senator Lane. That is something unusual ?
Miss . Yes, sir; that is unusual.
Representative Stephens. Since when did you get vegetables?
Miss . We have canned tomatoes, canned peas, corn — since
!Mr. Linnen has been here.
As to knives and forks and spoons, we have iiot had them until
yesterday morning, I think it was.
Representative Carter. You had to use your fingers ?
Miss . We use our bread to sop up our gravy. When a
girl would get through with her spoon, if we happened to have a
dessert we would wash it out in our cups and use that.
Now, about Mr. Stauffer. Last spring he bought a mandolin from
one of the gu'ls, and this mandolin was a S25 mandolin; that is,
with a leather case, and the instrument. And the girl, while she is a
good player on the instrument, she wanted the use of the mandolin
herself, and she wanted to buy this mandolin, and she made arrange-
ments with the girl, and the girl was gomg to sell it to her for $5,
and she was willing. The mandolin had a little repairing to be
done. She had it all that summer, and then she took it to Mr.
Staufi'er, and Mr. Stauffer had it, and sent away and had it repau-ed,
and this girl told ^Ir. Stauffer she was going to buy this mandolin,
and he asked her for how much, and she told him $.5.
Miss Bradley was the one that wanted to buy this nnmdoliii.
In the meantime Miss Bradley spoke to the owner of this mandolin
and told her she need not pay any attention to the repairs, that she
would pay for them, and this girl was going to sell it for S3 without
the repairing. So this girl, Miss Bradley, wrote to her father and
explained the matter of the mandolin to him and told him how much
she was going to pay for the mandolin, and her father wrote and told
her not to take advantage of the girl, and so she wrote again and
1030 CARIJSLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
told him about $15 was what she was going to pay. In the meantime
her father wrote, and he was going to send lier the mono}*.
In the meantime Mr. Stauffer got hold of this Miss Simpson and
told her he wanted to buy the mandolin. ''Of course/' he says, "it
will be sometime before Miss Bradley will pay you," or something
like that. He made some kind of excuse. So this girl gave liim the
mandohn, and he paid her right there cash S5. And this fall when
he organized a new mandolin club for the year he sold this same man-
dohn, that he paid $5 for, to one of the girls that had been out in the
country — and I guess she had very little means herself — for $15; and
thereby he made $10, when the girl was going to pay the full price
herself. And Mr. Stauffer told Miss Bradley about it. Of course,
Miss Bradley could not do anything about it then. She had to drop
it then.
Representative Carter. Mss , you made a very serious
charge there against Mrs. Friedman, and I want to ask you, Is she
always in those moods, doing those things ?
Miss — • — — -. Every time I see her she is carrying on somewhat
simple. She does not carry herself as a woman ought to for us to
follow an example by, but she always has those simple ways about
her.
Representative Carter. Is she always in that hilarious mood of
wanting to kick?
Miss . Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. Nearly all the time?
Miss . Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Is that just animal spirits ?
Miss — — — ■. I guess so.
Senator Lane. Full of life, is she?
Miss — . Yes, sir. They always talk about we girls and the
way we comb our hair, and using powder and paint, and some of the
girls see Mrs. Friedman with this paint and powder, and blacking her
eyebrows, and I think if she does it they ought not to blame us. Of
course, you could not blame any of the girls that see anyone with
high authority over there doing such a thing.
The Chairman. That Mr. Stauffer that you referred to — do you
know of his beating a young lady pupil here ?
Miss •. I heard of it.
The Chairman. What was her name ?
Miss —^—. .
The Chairman. Is she here now ?
Miss — ■ — ■^. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Who is he ?
The Chairman. He is the bandmaster.
Representative Stephens. Is he still in the school?
Miss . Yes, sir.
As to the lockups. When ]Miss Ridcnour puts the girls in there
she gives them very little exercise and very little fresh air, and very
little water or food to eat and (h'ink.
The Chairman. What does she give them ?
Miss . Just what they get in the dining room, but not as
much as they would get if they went to the table. This lockup is in
the back part — what we call the sky-parhn- hall. It is a very dark
room, and there is no ventilation there at all. It is anything but
CARLISLE IXDLVX SCHOOL. 1031
sanitary. There is only one window, and that leads into the uniform
room, and one or two windows are left in that uniform room, but our
uniforms collect all the fresh air.
The girls that 1 stated beir.g put in there for meeting these boAs, at
tjie time they were in there, they did not have enough water the
greater part of the time they were there, a-i.d the girls in the next
room had to pour water through paper funnels these girls had ii^iade,
and that is the way they had enough to drink. Whereas wlien the
other n^atron was here - Miss Gaither- she showed the girls some
respe' t, and she talked to them as a mother would, and during the
(lay s)je would let the girls go down to the laundry and work — and of
course, the ghls got ]-lenty of fresji air and exercise — and in the evening
they would go ba^k to the lockup and stay there for the night. She
did not keep them there a week, but two or three da}s. We girls
thought it was a disgrace then, when Miss Gaither was here, to put
anyone in the lockup, but since Miss Ridenour has been here we girls
have not looked at it in that way.
The Chairman. How many young ladies or girls liave been con-
fined in the lockup during the last school year?
Miss — . 1 am sure 1 could not tell, but there is more than all
t.he while Miss Gaither was here.
Tlie Chairman. How long was Miss Gaither here ?
Miss . She was here three or four }eai*s. Anyhow, she was
]iere before 1 came; she was here all tlie while I was here up to last
spring.
The Chairman. Do the rules of tJie school prescribe what offenses
shall be punished by confinement?
Miss . No, sir.
The Chairman. That is left to the matron, is il not ?
Miss . Yes, sir.
The Chairman. For what offenses are the girls usually confined in
the lockup ?
Miss . Miss Gaither
The Chairman. I mean now.
Miss . Oh, for ''sassing,"' and different things like that.
And sometimes Miss Ridenour is really to blame for the girls sassing
hei-, b'^cause she reallv does not speak to we girls as a matron ought
to. We rcaUze that she has 200 or 300 girls to look after, but at the
same time she ought to treat us as our own mothers would, for that
is th" intentions of her being here. And instead of that she nags at
(h" gilds and snaps at us when we go to ask her for anything, until it
is just through fear that we go to her.
1 think the other girls have more to sa}'.
TESTIMONY OF MISS .
The witness was remiiuled that she had been sworn.
The Chairman. Where ar<' you from ?
Miss . My home is in Kansas.
The Chairman. How long hnrv you been in Carlisle?
Miss . Two years in December.
Th<^ Chairman. What is your age i
Miss- . I was 18 in December.
Th" Chairman. What do you want to present to the conunission?
1032 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Miss . I vv'ant to talk more about the expelling. When I
came hero Miss Gaither was the matron. Of course, Miss Gaither—
we used to go to Miss Gaither and confide in her and tell her our
troubles, and sli-^ was mlling to tell us what to do, to tell us the best
thing to do, and help us in every way she could. And we girls loved
Miss Gaither.
Representative Carter. When did Miss Gaitlier leave here ?
Miss . Last January.
Representative Carter. A year ago ?
Miss . A year ago.
Representative Carter. Wliere is she now ?
Miss . In Phoenix, Ariz.
Representative Carter. Why did she leave here ?
Miss . They said she did not control the girls right, what I
heard.
So Miss Gaither used to always talk to us girls. When we heard
Miss Gaither was going to leave us, everybody — the girls all cried,
they felt so bad she was going away. When she told us she was
going away, of course, we did not want her to go, and we asked her
where she was going. She told us one time she did not have the
support of Mr. Friedman. In the spring, when I came here, there
was — I can name the girls, but I can not count them:
and they made dates
with the boys, and the boys came over to the girls' quarters and met
them in an empty room.
The Chairman. Wlien was that?
Miss . In the spring I came here; that was 1912, I think it
was.
The Chairman. Are there many other instances of that sort that
come to the knowledge of the young lady pupils that you hear of ?
Miss . There is not many, but there is a few.
The Chairman. What suggestion have you young ladies who want
to preserve your own reputation and the reputation of the school
blameless, for the prevention of those things? What do you think
ought to be done that is not being done?
Miss . We think they ought to be expelled. We think we
do not want to associate with such girls.
The Chairman. You regard that as the most serious offense that
could be committed ?
Miss . Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And instead of expelling the girls for mere displays
of temper, or what they call impudence, a premium ought to be placed
on refined moral conduct by expelling those who are guilty of lax
morals ?
Miss . Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know of cases where those things have
occurred and where there has been no serious discipline of the offend-
ers?
Miss . This is just the case I am trying to tell you about.
These girls met the boys for quite a while, and Miss Gaither wantetl
the gills to bo expelled, and Miss Gaither asked the girls what we
thought about it, and wo told her that we thought that the girls ought
to be expelled, and ]Mr. Friedman did not expel them. They wore
sent home, and one girl, , was charged with forgery.
CARLISLE IXDL\X SCHOOL. 1033
It was up in town, and they sent hoi' home, but (Ud not oxpe.l her.
She was in the courts clown town, or in Hariisburg, and the school
got her deal' of that. Then she went and got in this trouble, and they
did not expel her. She went home.
The Chairman. Were all the young ladies in that trouble you
referred to — meeting young men in the vacant room — wore they all
permitted to go antl sent home without expulsion?
Miss . I think so.
The CiiAiRMAX. Do you know of other cases that you want to
present ?
Miss ^ . "\^'Tien Miss Ridenour came hoi-e, of course these girls
were here, some of these girls were here that were in this, and of
course Miss Gaither did not have the support of Mr. Friedman, and
when Miss Gaither was here there was another case of a boy meeting
a girl, and her name Avas , and the boy came to this
gu'l's room. They did not find it out — Miss Gaither did not find it
out, and the day Miss Gaither found it out — tlie next day this girl
was going to go to Philadelphia to sing in some kind of church meet-
ing. The day before she was to go Miss Gaither took this case up to
Mr. Friedman, and Mr. Friedman became angry with Miss Gaither
and said she should not have brought that case up until after the
girl came back. We think Mr. Friedman used to let those girls go
because they had some accomplishment in a certain way; he wanted
put them up before the public and represent them as the school's best.
Senator Lane. She had a good voice, had she ?
Miss . She had a good voice; she had a loud voice. But
Miss Gaither would not consent to this girl going, so she did not go.
She was expelled, though;
Representative Stephens. Did they send her home ?
Miss . Yes, sir; she was expelled.
There is another girl out in the countrv" now. Her name is •
She ran away from here. I don't know just when she ran
away, but they caught her, and she went to the country, and when
she was in the country she ran awaj', and I guess she was loafing
around the highways; she was on a track, and she met a tramp, and
she was with a tramp a couple of daj^s. She stayed all night with
him in the barn. And some people took it up, and she was brought
back to the school and put in the lockup, and Miss Gaither wanted
her expelled, and Mr. Friedman would not expel her.
Senator Lane. How old was slie i
Miss . She is 16 or 17.
Miss . She is out in tlie couiitiy now.
The Chairman. Still in coniun tioti with the scl^ool '.
Miss . Still in connection witli the school.
I want to say a little about tjie general feelii'g. The gills do not
like our matron.
The Chairman. Why ('
Miss . Slie treats us nu-aiL
The Chairm.vn. She is not congeninl to vow. and 1 believe you stated
she would not receive \()ur < oniiiieiu e (
Miss — . The girls how arc afraid of lu-r. Thev won't go to
lier. Of coui-se, we realize tiiat some })eople are gifted witJi (|ui(k
tempei-s, but she always snji])s us up wlien wc go to her.
1084 CARLISLE TXOTAX .SCnOOL.
The Chairman. Slio doos not invite your confiflonr e, and does not
give you tJiat friendiv supervision that you believe you are entitled to ?
Miss . No, sir.
The Chairman. But you did appreciate Miss Gaitlier?
Miss . Yes, sir; the girls all loved Miss Gaitlier.
Senator Lane. Were there more eases of immorality ciuring Miss
Gaither's time than there has been shice then, or not?
Miss . The case that the lady told you about — tJie girls are
still here yet.
Senator Lane. Is the percentage of im.morality on the increase
since Miss Gaitlier left, or is it about the same ? Were all these cases
you have told us about when Miss Gaither was here ?
Miss . No; there has not been so many, but we girls think
that would not have been so if Miss Gaither had had the support of
Mr. Friedman.
Representative Stephens. If he had supported her and expelled
the girls
Miss . Yes, sir. But there has been one case. When Miss
Ridenour came here — of course, she has been around, and she talked
as if she would stop everything like that, but there was a case after
she came.
Representative Carter. Do you know how many ?
Miss . No, sir; I do not.
Representative Carter. Quite a good many ?
Miss — . No ; there has not been so many. I just think of that
case that the girls told me about.
The Chairman. You think that if severe penalties were promptly
enforced against young ladies who offend against the moral proprie-
ties, that would tend to prevent the frequency of those incidents?
Miss — . Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You think that is the remedy for it ?
Miss . Yes, sir. We girls do not agree to putting girls that
are impudent in the same class as those immoral cases. And the
girls do not respect our matron. They do not respect her.
The Chairman. What sort of quarters have the young lady pupils ?
Are your quarters satisfactory ?
Miss . Y(s; we have very nice rooms.
The Chairman. Is domestic science taught in this school ?
Miss — — — . No, SU-.
The C'hairman. What do you 1( arn here? What do you study?
Miss . We go to school, and we take sewing. We choose —
we can go to i\\v laundry, we can take sf-wing
The Chairman. You have no opportunity to leaiii housekecjung?
Miss . We can work in the hous(>.
Th{> (Chairman. You are not taught that?
Miss . No; you are supposed to go lo th(> connti'y.
Th(> Chairman. On your outing })nrtirs?
Miss . Yes, sir.
Re))rescntative Stp:phens. Do you know anything about cooking?
Miss . Yes; but t]\(\v do not t(^!ich it here; th(\y do out in
the country.
Senator TjANE. Wer(> \()U oiil in ihc country?
Miss ■ — ■. Y(>s, sii-.
Senator Lank. What did von do?
CARLISLE IXDIAX SCHOOL. 1035
Miss . Most everything.
Senator Lane. Housework?
Miss . Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. On the fnnu (
Miss . No, sir.
Senator Lane. In the city ?
Miss . Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. What salary did you receive lor that: what
compensation ?
Miss . The first year I went out I went to Ocean City, and I
got $12 a month, and the hist time $10 a month.
The Chairman. What work were you assigned to at Ocean City?
Miss . I took care of the house and did the wasliing and
ironing.
The Chairman. Who were you mth ?
Miss . George Patten, of Philadelphia.
The Chairman. Of wliom did his family consist?
Miss . Why, lie, his wife, and a little girl, and a grand-
mother and an old maid aimt.
The Chairman. Were they refined people?
Miss . Very refined.
The Chairman. Did they treat you well and were you pleased
with your service among them ?
Miss . Yes; they treated me very nice.
The Chairman. Did you feel you were benefited by that experience?
Miss — . Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Who selected the home for you to go to?
Miss . Miss Jennie Gaither.
The Chairman. The ou ting agent ?
Miss . No.
The Chairman. How long has Mrs. La Flesche been here ?
Miss . I do not know. She was here when I came.
The Chairman. AVhat is her position ?
Miss . I do not know what you call it. She gets tl^.e liomes
for the girls.
Representative Carter. Did you know anything rbout the young
lady that was in jail down in Carlisle during the h()lidays--vras
there a young lady in jail?
Miss — — -" — . Down town during the holidays?
Representative Carter. Yes.
Miss . No; I do not know any thmg about that, onl's what I
heard. That Is another case. V. hf met the boys in Vo girls'
quarters.
Anotlier thing W(m:o not ap] rove of. Wedo not tliink cases liki^ that
ouglit to be taken outsii'e and be nade public, and g(> to court
every time. We think tliere are A\a>s they can jaaiish the stui'ents
in a way without takhig then^ and letting the public kn(i\v j.hoi.t such
things.
Representative Carter. Was she ]/uiiishe(i for what ha]^]iened
here on the school gi'ounds ?
Miss . She was in th^e locku]) for awhile.
The Chairman. In the county jail ?
Miss . Yes; in the comity jail.
The Chairman. With the general criminals?
1036 CAELISLE IXDIAN SCHOOL.
Miss . I don't know.
Representative Carter. Was it for sonething that happened here
on the school grounds ?
Miss — -. For something that l^appened here on the school
gi'ounds.
The Chairman. Do you know who made the charge against her
and had her confined in the ja'd?
Miss . I think Miss Ridenour did.
Senator Lane. What has become of the chikl now ? Where is she ?
Miss . I am sure I don't know.
Senator Lane. How okl a girl is she?
Miss . I don't know her very well.
Miss . 18.
Senator Lane. Mr. Rupley states that under the laws of the State
of Pennsylvania the offense for which this young lady was imprisoned
was what is commonly known as fornication, and under the laws of
Pennsylvania is a crime punishable by fine and costs.
TESTIMONY OF MISS .
The witness was reminded that she had been sworn.
The Chairman. Where are you from, Miss ?
Miss . I am from Oklahoma.
The Chairman. How long have you been in this school ?
Miss . I came here September 10, 1911.
Representative Carter. What part of Oklahoma are you from ?
Miss . When I left home my home was between the towns
of Shawnee and Tecumseh, about the center part of the State.
Representative Carter. What are you ? A Pottawatomie ?
Miss . Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. What have you got that you want to tell
us about ?
Miss . I have the case regarding our religion. This last fall
in September the Catholics were denied the privilege of going down
to confession and communion. Since the time of Col. Pratt Catholic
students have always been allowed to go to early mass alternately, the
boys one Sunday and the girls the next. The early inass is at 8 o'clock.
When we asked the reason why we were deprived of this privilege
they said we had no chaperone. Well, since the time of Col. Pratt
the Catholic students have always been allowed to go to mass in care
of their officers, and that practice has been kept up from his time until
last fall, and there never has been a case that we could trace back oi
any student making dates or doing anything wrong when the}^ went
down to early mass, and they have always been in the care of their
officers.
AVhen we asked where we would get a chaperone the matron told us
that she did not know. Well, if we are <leprived of going to mass be-
cause we have no chaperone, I should think it would be the superin-
tendent's place to provide a chaperone for us, since he cut that out.
On Saturdays we go to town every other week, the boys one week and
the girls the next. We go to town in groups of three without a chape-
rone, and we are there, and we meet all kinds of people on the street,
are in and out of the various stones, and in the moving ]/ictures, and
other places, without a chaperone. Now, because 15 to 30 gu'ls
CARLISLE IXDIAX SCHOOL. 1037
want to go to early mass to receive the sacranKiit and confession
and communion, we are denied that right because we liave no chape-
rone, but we are allowed to go to town without a chajierone.
The Chairman. How many Catholic girls arv there in the school?
Miss . I could not say how many Catholic girls. The stu-
dents are about half Catholics.
The Chairman. Wliat is Mi*. Friedman's religion i
Miss . He joined the church last fall. He is an Epis-
copalian.
Senator Lane. How many hours off do you liave in the afternoon
these eyery other Saturdays?
Miss . We go to town right after dinner as soon as we can,
and are supposed to be' back at 5 o'clock. That is another case I
would like to speak about.
Senator Lane. What happens if you don't come home on time i
Miss . We get bad marks.
Senator Lane. How late can you return without getting into
serious trouble ?
Miss . Half past 5. When Miss Gait her was here — on our
town days we go as soon as we can get ready and be back by 5.30.
Before we were denied the priyilege of getting down town on account
of quarantine; the last time I was down town, there was quite a
number of girls who were late. We did not get back until after 5
o'clock, but before 5.30, and Miss Ridenour taken our names. She
did not tell us we had to be back by 5 o'clock. We always had the
understanding we had to get back before 5.30; we did not under-
stand we had to be back by 5 o'clock. And because we came in
after 5 o'clock and before 5.30 our names were taken, and we were
denied the right of one of our privileges; that is, she gave us our
choice: We could either stay home from the next social, or stay
home from our next town day.
Senator Lane. Which did you take?
Miss . I took to stay home from town the next town day.
Mr. Whitwell made out the calendar for this year, and he put in
the calendar that these meetings should be held during the week
between the hours of 7 and 8. I understand that those hours were
changed from 6 to 7 o'clock by Mr. Friedman, and that was den\nng
all the students who were at work between 6 and 7 the right of
attending those meetings.
While Miss Gaither was here the Protestant students had th(>ir
meetings on Thursday evening and the Catholic students on Wednes-
day. And she gave the girls substitutes that had to go to the religious
meetings on the different nights. For instance, if the Catholic girls
were working in the dining room the nights they were to go she
would substitute Protestant girls on that evening, and the same wa}^
in the Protestant girls' case. But this year ah those meetings after
su])per — say on Monday night, all the students who are at work can
not go. They have to be deprived of that during that month.
Representative Carter. Miss -, what time do you have
Catholic church ?
Miss . Early mass ?
Representative Carter. I mean all along, difhMent tin:es (hn-in<j;
the day.
1038 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Miss . For early mass we have to leave here at 7 o'clock,
and we have mass down there at 8 o'clock.
Representative Carter. That is the first mass ?
Miss . The first mass for the students.
Representative Carter. When is the next ?
Miss . Half past nine.
Representative Carter. Then the next ?
Miss . Well, we want to go to two masses.
Representative Carter. You have your regular service at 11 ?
Miss . No; they have set a time for the students to attend,
the 9.30 mass.
Representative Carter. They do not object to your going to the
9.30 mass, do they ?
Miss . No; that is the mass set for us.
Representative Carter. You have to go to that one, and they
won't let you go to the 8 o'clock mass?
Miss . The priests and sisters would not object for us to
attend the 10 o'clock mass, but it is the regulations of the school to
attend the 9.30.
Representative Carter. But you want to attend the early mass?
Miss . We want the right of going to confession and com-
munion on our different days whenever we are supposed to go, the
girls one Sunday and the boys the next.
Senator Lane. You can go, though, to the 9.30 mass without a
chaperone ?
Miss . No; there is one Catholic woman on the grounds,
and she chaperones the girls to the 9.30 mass. She is the only
Catholic woman on the grounds, and it is too much for her to chape-
rone the girls at 8 o'clock, and we have to fast from midnight
Senator Lane. That is the reason, is it? You want to get back
and get something to eat ?
Miss . It is too much on the students to fast from midnight
until dinner time.
Senator Lane. That is why you object to it? On account of
being deprived of your early meal ?
Miss . Our complaint is it has caused them to stop us from
going to early mass, because we had no chaperone, and yet since the
time of Col. Pratt until last fall we have alwa3"s went in charge of our
officers and the girls have always conducted themselves as ladies.
Senator Lane. What else have 3a)u to say about the general
welfare of this institution?
Miss . You have heard the case brought up. She
was a girl that was not of a very good character. She had a very
good voice, and she was taken out several times with the band, and
on one occasion she sang for the governor in Harrisburg and was
put as a model for the school. And she was also the star here at
commencement time, 1912, I think it was, when she sang. When
they put up girls of that character that is only leading weaker girls
to evil doings, because they think if a girl of that standing can rise
up and be ]Hit as a model before the school they also can do those
things.
Senator Lane. You think it puts a premium on misconduct?
Miss - . Yes, sir. If we have somebody to represent the
school we want their character also to be recognized, because it is
CAFiLlSLE l^'DIAN SCHOOL. 1039
reflcotiiig on our cluractois us \%cil; not ouiv on wo students that are
now lu'ie, l>iit those tliat come after is, and the whcde Iiuhan race.
The ]>iri Uc gets the ini})resaicn that if that can hapjx-ii lo the girls
here, all the school must he (^f a lower standing.
About 's case. You have something said about
that. She is now on the outing system, and she was not expelled
when she had good reasons to be expelled, while other girls were
expelled for almost nothing. 's case — that started
when they had the pageant in Philadelphia. There was a number of
students w-ent there to represent the school and the Indians. I
untlerstand the}' did not have a very good location, their boarding
place where they stopped was not looked after in a proper \\'i\y, the
girls and boys were thrown in together, and that is where she got her
start. After she came back to the school she kej^t it up. Then there
was a request from Philadelphia from some church to send a delega-
tion over there to represent the school.
Representative C'aetek. When was it these girls and boys were
sent to Philadelphia ?
^liss . The time of the pageant.
Representative Carter. Do you remember what year ?
^liss . It was 1911, I guess.
Representative Carter. Who were they?
Aliss . Mrs. Meyers is one of them.
Representative Carter. One of the chaperones?
Aliss . Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. What does she do. Is she one of the
employees ?
Miss . She was.
Miss . She was assistant matron at that time.
Representative Carter. And she was with the girls at that time ?
Miss . Yes, sir. And this is what we think about that.
If Mr. Friedman made arrangements for them to go dowai to Phila-
delphia he should look after their w^eLfare while they w^ere there.
Representative Carter. Undoubtedl}^ he should. Where ditl they
stay ? At a hotel ?
Miss — . I don't know where they stopped.
Representative Carter. Was tliere a chaperone with them ?
Miss • — - — — . I don't know whether she was with them all the time;
I guess she was. I did not go myself.
Representative Carter. Is there anybody here that was on that
trip ? There is a young lady here that knows about it.
Miss — . I started to tell you about the time when they asked
for a delegation or a music committee to go down to some church fair.
I was selected as one of them. I do not remember whether it was a
trio or quartet of ghis. I was supposed to go down and play on the
harp, and Fred Carden on the violui, and other girls w^ere to sing.
Mr. Friedman issued an order that Fred and I were not to go because
we were Catholics, so I did not get to go that time.
Representative Carter. Was that a written order that he issued ?
Miss. . He sent it to Mr. Stauffer. Mr. Stauffer was the one
that told me.
Representative Carter. He told you you were denied because you
were Catholics ?
1040 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Miss ■ — . Yes; l)ocaiiso this ])lacc they were going was for a
Protestant church. And the day before she was to go, Miss Gaither
learned of 's trouble, and re])orted it to Mr. Friedman, and he
became furious, and asked her why didn't she wait until after she
came back. It just looks to me like they don't care what kind of
girls they take to represent the school, just so they have a girl that
is accomplished in some way. We want girls whose characters shine
as well as their accomplishments do, because it throws a reflection
upon us just as well.
Th? CiiAiFiMAN. What about the college spirit here at Cfirlisle '?
Miss - — . The students do not seem to have miicli r(>specl for
either Mr. Friedman or Miss Ridenorr.
Senator Lane. Are they ])roud of the institution?
Miss — . I do not know. I can not speak for the rest ( f them,
but for myself I would be ashamed to tnke my diploma away from
here. I am a senior, and I don't know whetlier I will ])ass or not,
but the way things are going now I \\()iild be ashamed to get a diploma,
because the public are getting the impression we are not a good kind
of peo])le.
Senator Lane. I (h) not think so. I think ('.irlislc has a good re])U-
tation. So far as I know, I think the school is s])oken higldy of
throughout the country.
Miss . That is my impressi(ui (>i it, but from tilings 1 iuive
seen going on here I can not help that im}U"(>ssion.
Miss . We think the school is misrepresented. Mr. Fried-
man writes stories that In-ags u]) the school, and we do not think it
ouglit to })e done that way. We think he misre})resents the school.
He has usod these girls with low cliaracters just to make a name for
himself. He has all these girls u]) in public, and it seems lilce he
selects the very lowest girls to represent the school.
Miss - — -. In connection with the religious sul^ject, I think it is
a regulation of the Indian schools that any Protestant shoidd not
proselyte any students to their religion or say any tiling about it to
them. They have the right to heli(>ve any chui-ch they wish; and
Mr. Stiuffer has argued religion with u\v several times.
The Chairman. Has he much influence with you?
Miss . No; he could not have influence with me. That is
not the point. It is because he has argued religion with me, and if
I was weak enough to think his way he might have been able to
influence me on his side, but if he can get hold of some student that
is weaker than I am he is going to use his influence. He is going
against the regulations of the Indian schools by proselyting, and it-
is not his business to talk about our religion.
The Chairman. Have you been going out on the outing system
since you have been here ?
Miss . Yes, sir. I was out^ last smunier. My flrst summer.
The Chairman. Where did you go ?
Miss . The first three months I was out I went to Brookline,
a suburb of Philadelphia. The last three months I went to Morris-
town, N. J.
The Chairman. What did you do at Brookline?
Miss . Housework.
The Chairman. What did vou do in NewJersev?
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1041
Miss . Housework; but it was much easier. When I went
to the country 1 told Miss Johnson I wanted a home where I would
not have to work very hard, because I had had a great deal of trouble
with my back and I could not stand the work. When I got out there
she told me just what I had to do, and the woman of the house did
not know how to cook very much, and I don't know an3^thing about
cooking, and I was depended upon to do the housework and do the
cooking. I did not know how to cook, and she could not teach me.
wSenator Lane. Was there a husband in the family ?
Miss . Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. He had some pretty poor grul), then, didn't he?
Miss — — — . I don't know about that. Their food seemed to be
aU right, as far as that goes.
Representative Carter. How did you like the })laces ?
Miss . The first home I did not like; the last home 1 did.
Representative Carter. You had too much work at the first?
Miss . I had more work than I could stand. I was not able
to take up all that work. The first Monday 1 was there she told me
1 would have to help her with the washing. I told her I told Miss
Johnson I could not do the washing, and Miss Johnson told me, too,
J would not have to do the washing, and if I had any washing it
woidd be very little. But when I got there the first Monday Mrs.
Roach told me when I got there 1 would have to go down and help
with the wash. I told her what I told Miss Johnson. I thought I
v»-ould try it, anyhow, and I turned the wringer around once, and I
knew I could not stand it, and I told her about this. She said I
would not have to help with the washing, but I would have to help
with the ironing. The last week I was there I worked very hard.
The oldest child was about 14 and the youngest was about 2^
years old.
TESTIMONY OF MISS .
The \\dtness was reminded that she had been sworn.
Representative Stephens. Where are you from ?
Miss . Oklahoma.
Representative vStephexs. What tribe ?
Miss . Osage.
Representative Stephens. What do you wish to speak about ?
Miss . The rudeness and harshness of Miss Ridenour's man-
ner, and the way she speaks to the girls, and the way she treats them.
The majority of the girls at this school can not go to Miss Ridenour
the way they would go to their mothers, because she speaks rudely to
them. She does not give them time to explain or tell their side of the
story until she snaps them off and probably gives them what they call
a demerit mark for what she calls "impudence."
There is a little girl here, , and I guess the way she
combed her hair did not please Miss Ridenour. Miss Ridenour told
her to change it, and she took her hair dov/n and combed it and tied it.
She wont upstairs into her room and took her hair down and combed
it the way she wanted it, and she came downstairs and Miss Ridenour
slapped her right and left and told her she would have to do what she
wanted. She rules most of the girls in that way. W^hen she was out
35601— PT 11—14 6
1042 CARLISLE IKDL\N SCiiOOL.
in Phoenix, I guess she was used to ruhng the full-blooded Indians, and
when she came here she did not realize that the most of the girls were
not full-blooded Indians. Of course, she should not treat the full-
blooded Indians any different from the others.
Another case is 's case. She went to the reception,
and one of her friends asked her if she would not sleep with her. Miss
Ridenour inspected during the night, and she struck with a
strap and woke her up. She could have awakened up in a
nice way instead of pounding her.
The Chairman. Was she in a different room from the one she was
supposed to stay in?
Miss . She was in my room; she is my roommate, but she
was in the wrong bed.
The Chairman. The regulation is that onlv one shall sleep in
a bed?
Miss . Yes, sir.
Miss . The girls that were expelled from here last
spring, had just come in from the countr}^. She had a sore
foot. They had a circus down town, and the student body was
allowed to attend the circus. It was a very windy day, and the tents
were flying, and the man in charge of the circus tent told ]\Iiss Ride-
nour that she should not let the girls take seats until she saw every-
thing was all right. Miss Ridenour told the girls they should not
take seats, and then again she told the girls they should.
started to get a seat, and she walked up to and shook her,
and got after her for trying to take the seat. And her sister walked
up and said, "Miss Ridenour, has a sore foot, and if you want
to shake anybody around here I would rather you would shake me."
And Miss Ridenour, in public, when the people were all around there,
she threatened to break an umbrella over their heads if they did not
keep quiet, and she brought them back to school, and put them in
the lockup, and finally expelled them.
Representative Stephens. Expelled them from the school en-
tirely ?
Miss . Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. How long ago was this ?
Miss . Last spring, in the month of May.
Representative Stephens. Were all these girls expelled ?
Miss — . No, sir; just the last case.
Representative Stephens. What else have you ?
Miss . While Miss Gaither was here she had an office girl -
the oflEice girl did not always do it, but the assistant matron and the
office girl and Miss Gaither used to take turns inspecting the girls'
rooms during the day, and each girl that did not have her room clean
used to get a demerit mark, and in that way — they would also put up
a notice on a bulletin board that a certain girl's room was not clean.
As it is, we never have inspections, only the Sunday inspections,
and it is natural that some of the girls would fall short on keeping
their rooms clean if they do not have to. As a general rule, the most
of them keep their rooms clean, but there are those who do not,
whereas if we had general inspections every day perhaps they would
keep their cpuirters in better condition.
mien the girls are sick she does not speak to them like she oaglit to.
My own case — I was sick one time. I did not feel like working or
CARLISLE IXDIAN SCHOOL. 1043
going to school. I walked down to the ofRce and told Miss Ridenour
in a nice way that I was sick, and asked her if I could not be excused.
iShe spoke up and told nie in a very harsh way that she did not allow
sick gu'ls to hang around the girls' quarters, and she would send me to
the hospital. I told hei-, ''Very well." They have the idea around
here that the girls play off when they get excused from work, so they
sent me over to the hospital. I went over there and they put me to
bed, and they did not give me anything all day but a bo\n of soup.
They usually keep the girls over there ah day. When I came back
to quarters that evening I had to ask for medicine. They did not
give me anything at all but the bowl of soup for dinner.
Representative Stephens. Were you examined by a doctor?
Miss — . No, sir. The next morning I was sick and I went
down to the thspensary and I asked the doctor what the hospital
was for; that I was over there all the day before. He said he did
not know I was over there, and that if he had known he would cer-
tainly have done something for me. I supposed Miss Ridenour
would have told him.
Representative Stephens. Have you any complaint against the
doctor ?
Miss . No, sir; we have a very nice doctor.
Representative Stephens. These circumstances you have related,
did you make them known to Mr. Friedman ?
Miss . No, sir. I did not think it would do any good to
present such facts. It seems as though he is right in* with Miss
Ridenour, and it would not do any good. Take, for instance, any
time the girls want to get permission to do anything. He will send
them right back to Miss Ridenour, as if she was the head of the
school. Take New Year's Day. The girls wanted to go skating.
Miss Ridenour said she had not any orders, that she would notify them
when she had. She was not taking any steps toward getting orders.
The girls wanted to go skating, because they had not had any priv-
ileges. The boys were enjo^dng the skating, while the girls stayed
home. They felt that this one day would not be much of a sacrifice
for the boys. The girls came the second time to ask if they could
go skating, and Miss Ridenour said she had not had any orders yet.
They went to Mr, Friedman, and while they were there the phone
rang, and it was Miss Ridenour, and the girls came down and she
reprimanded the girls in a very harsh manner for taking the steps
they had taken, and she told the girls she had asked before when
they loiew very well she had just phoned over.
Representative Stephens. Do the girls geneially have respect for
either Mr. Friedman or Miss Ridenour ?
Miss — — — . No, sir; they do not.
Representative Stephens. For what reason?
Miss — — • — . Miss Ridenour never treats the girls right. She never
trusts the girls. She should take into consideration that the girls
here are young ladies ; they know how to conduct themselves. She
can see that there are some that do not care to conduct themselves in
a right way, but the majority do. She does not even trust them with
the other employees here. If you ask to go to an employee's room
she will ask you whom j^ou are going to see — • — '
Representative Stephens. Why do you distrust Mr. Friedman
then?
1044 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Miss — — ■ — . Well — 'iiobody has any respect for him.
Representative Stephens. What is the cause of it ?
Miss — • — - — -. For instance, last spring they were having a little
trouble here about cutting out the different gatherings they had, and
Mr. Friedman called the girls down to the gymnasium and got them
all down here, and they began to holler and hiss, and he could not
get them quiet, and he lined them up in companies, and as soon as
one company would stop, another would start, and he would call
them down.
He got them quieted down, and he gave them a talking to, and he
came out in plain words that the faculty were not their friends because
they wanted to be, they were paid to be, and also on that evening
he called us "savages."
Representative Stephens. Were there any other persons present
besides the girls ?
Miss — - — • — -. The student body and Miss Ridenour. When Miss
Ridenour first came, the first evening she was at Carlisle she did not
speak to the girls nicely at all. She came in the assembly and spoke
to them in a very harsh manner. She left an impression, but, how-
ever, it was not the right kind. No girl can go to her. For my part,
I think a lady who is placed over several hundred girls should be a
lady of more delicate qualities. I guess she feels as long as Mr.
Friedman is back of her, that she is just as good as the superintendent
himself.
Representative Carter. You mean she speaks to the employees in
a dictatorial kind of way, or that she does not use proper language
that should pass between ladies and gentlemen ?
Miss — ' — - — . She does not speak to them as a lady should. Miss
— • — • — • is here, and she was present at the time Miss Ridenour spoke
about Miss Canfield in a very unladylike way. Miss Canfield is an
employee ^
The Chairman. What do you mean by "unladylike" way?
Miss — • — ■ — •. You go to her and ask her a question; you would
think you were going to get your head bit off.
Representative Carter. She speaks roughly and abruptly?
Miss —^ -. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Were you on that trip ?
Miss . No ; I was going to say that there were some girls
who were present. C — ■ ■ M— was one of the girls to go to
the pageant.
The Chairman. Any others that you know of ?
Miss . No, sir; I think that she is the only one.
TESTIMONY OF MISS -.
.The witness was reminded that she had been sworn.
Senator Lane. Where are you from ?
Miss . Minnesota.
Representative Carter. You are a Chippewa?
Miss . Yes, sir; I have the same subject as Miss ,
about how Miss Ridenour treats the girls.
Senator Lane. Tell us what you know.
Miss -. She does not seem to treat the girls right when they
first come. Some new girls just arrived here some few weeks ago.
CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1045
I guess she thought they did not know very much, and she did not
make them feel at home. They had a chaperonc that came with
them, and she just came from town, I think, and they were going
down there to meet her, and I guess she thought they were running
away, and she jerketl them by the arm, with the boys out on the
campus and everything, and slie shipped one of the girls.
Senator Lane. How old was the girl ?
Miss . I do not know how old the girls are. They must
have been 18 or 19 years old.
Senator Lane. In public was it ?
Miss . Yes, sir; down on the main walk.
Senator Lane. They were just coming here ?
Miss . They were here alreaciy. They had been here about
a day or two.
Senator Lane. Is sh" a heavy, muscular woman ^
Miss . Miss Ridi-nour? Yes, sir; she is. Whenever they
would see this chaperone th' y would go to meet her. Th(^y were
crying all the time, and instead of trying to make them a/t home or
getting the girls togt^thcr, like Miss Gaithor would — when nevv^ girls
came she would tell the girls to go in and entertain them, and she has
never done that with any new girls. She starts to scold them right
away, the first day they get here. That does not make them feel
very good. She could have talked to them in a different way than
that.
Of course. Miss has told you about her slapping those girls
in bed.
None of us girls ever feel like going to Miss Ridenour with any of
our troubles
The Chairman. That complaint s< ems to be quite general among
you, and it does sc em that Miss Ilid( nour must bo tactless, to say the
least, in not having the confidence of some of the young ladies. Did
you ever try to win her confidence and affection? What has been
the attitude of the 5''oung ladies in the school in that regard ? Did
it ever occur to you that she might have a pretty hard road herseK ?
Miss . When Miss Ridenour fiist came she did not speak to
us girls as if she was glad to come here or anything, but she snapped
right at us, and, of course, that gave us the impression that she was
not the kind of a woman to rule over girls. We know that Miss
Ridenour has a record of good discipline, but she did not exercise
her fliscipline in the right way when she first came. From that time
she has just nagged at the girls.
The Chairman. You say that when new pupils come here she does
not make an effort to make them comfortable ?
Miss . Not that I know of.
The Chairman. But censures them, and does not treat them
kindly ?
Miss . Yes, sir. I know most of the girls feel that way
toward her. When they get into trouble at all they fear her. They
would not tell her hke they would in former years, like they did with
Mss Gaither. She would take us to her room and explain right and
wrong, but we do not feel that way about Miss Ridenour.
I know there was a time when we went to get that permission to
go skating. I was the one that went and asked. It seemed that the
boys had the privilege to go down and skate for a whole week, and
1046 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
the girls had not had permission, and I thought the boys ought to
sacrifice one day for the girls, as the girls had been kept in the house
so much. So I went down and asked her, and she snapped me oflF,
saying, "I have not had any orders for you to go skating." Of
course, when we want anything like that we might as well stay out
of the office all together.
The Chairman. How about the feeling toward Mr. Friedman?
Could you go to him with your troubles '?
Miss . I have not thought much about it. He would send
me back to Miss Ridenour; I think so.
The Chairman. What is the feeling generally among the young
ladies toward Mr. Friedman ?
Miss . Well, I guess
The Chairman. Do they like him ?
Miss . I do not think any of them that I have heard. Nearly
every girl I know seems to dishke him. They do not seem to show
any respect toward him.
Something about music: Some of the girls came here — I know I
came here with the impression we could take music- — piano lessons
or sometliing. I was anxious to take lessons and I went to Mr. Stauf-
fer. The first year I came here I went to him and asked him if I
could take music lessons and he said he would take my name. He
took my name, and he never let me in. So then I let it go and my
mother kept waiting to me telhng me I ought to take music lessons.
I asked him again this year to take my name and he said he would
take it, and he did. I have known lots of girls, and he has taken
other girls in — new girls — and he has left me out. This is mv third
y6ar here, and he has never given me a chance.
Senator Lane. W^hy?
Miss . I don't know why.
Representative Carter. Does he have the naming of the music
pupils ?
Miss . Why, I don't know. I have heard it said that he
does not want to take anybody in unless they are advanced in music.
Representative Carter. W'ho selects the pupils that take music ?
Miss . Nobody that I know of.
The Chairman. Are they permitted to take it when they want to ?
Miss . I know the catalogues say we can take music if we
come here.
Senator Lane. You appeal to him because he is the music teacher ?
Miss . Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ever bring the matter to the attention of
the superintendent?
Miss . No, sir; I have not.
The Chairman. Why don't you do that?
Miss . 1 just neglected. He has sent girls to Mr. Stauffer.
I have known girls that went to him and he said, "See Mr. Stauffer."
The Chairman. What interest does he take in the school — Mr.
Friedman ? Wliat does he do about you ?
Miss . I do not know. I could not answer that, I guess.
The Chairman. What class are you in?
Miss . I am taking business.
The Chairman. Are vou a graduate of the school ?
CARLISLE IXDL\X SCHOOL. 1047
Miss . No, I am not. I fiiii^ied at home in the eighth
grade.
The Chairman. How often do you see him about your class
rooms ?
Miss . Sometimes once in three months lie comes around.
He comes into the rooms.
The Chairman. ^^Tiat does he do when he comes to the rooms ?
1 mean to the study rooms. What does he do when he comes there?
Miss . He comes in there and asks liow you are getting
along and how long you have been there.
The Chairman. How many gi]ls are theie in tlie Inisiness depart-
ment ?
Miss . There must be eight or nine.
The Chairman. Who is at the head?
Miss . Miss Moore. She stays downtown.
The Chairman. You think he comes around about once in three
months and asks how you are getting on ?
Miss . I could not say it is once in three months, but he has
not been in there very often.
The Chairman. How long have you been in there ^
Miss . Three years now.
The Chairman. How long does he stay when he comes around, as
a rule ?
Miss . About five minutes, as a rule. He comes in and takes
oflF his hat, and Miss Moore shows him papers and he walks off.
Representative Carter. What are you taking? Stenography?
Miss . Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. How long have you been taldng it?
Miss . Three years. Miss Moore was jnst a student herself.
She started in there, and she had a large class and she liad to teach
each one individually. It was kind of discouraging at first. Of
course I have been in the hospital quite a while since I came, and I
went home last year before commencement, and I missed about tlu"ee
inontlis.
Representative Carter. You have been in tlie hospital? Your
health is bad ?
Miss . It has been. I caught cold and I was over there
three weeks at a time.
The Chairman. I behevo we have one more witness 3'et.
TESTIMONY OF MISS .
The witness was reminded that slie had been sworn.
Senator Lane. Where are you from i
Miss . Michigan.
Representative Carter. What tribe ?
Miss . Chippewa. My subject is the feeling of the girls in
general. The feeling of the girls in general toward Miss Ridenour is
anything but kindness. It seems we can not go to her as w^e would
like to go to a mother and speak to her about our troubles because of
her rude manner of speech and thoughtlessness of others' feelings.
On many occasions wdien we want something w^e go in the office and
ask her for it in a kindly way, and she never gives us a nice answer,
as she should. One time I went in there asking for some ink, and I
1048 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
did not get it. She gave some of her answers, and I came out with-
out getting the ink.
Representative Carter. Miss , is this feehng universal
among the students, or are there some of the students that this
matron Ukes and some that hke her ?
Miss — . No, sir; I don't think you Avill find many. Very few.
Representative Carter. Are there any at all ?
Miss . I don't think so.
Representative Carter. Not a single one ?
Miss . I don't think so.
Representative Carter. They are all opposed to her ?
Miss . All opposed to her.
Representative Carter. Even these girls that the other young
ladies have told about, who have committed infractions of the rules
for which they should be expelled, they do not like her?
Miss . None of them.
Representative Carter. What is the feelbig toward Mr. Friedman ?
Miss . It seems they have no respect for j\Ir. Friedman —
the manner in which he talks to us like savages and all that.
Representative Carter. He does not have any respect for an
Indian, you think?
Miss ■ — . I mean the students.
Representative Carter. I say, you think Mr. Friedman does not
have any respect toward an Indian ?
Miss . From my standpoint, I don't think so.
Representative Carter. Do you thmk when he is calling them
savages he is really in earnest about it, or is just joldng ?
Miss . It does not seem that way.
Representative Carter. These fellows here sometimes call me a
savage dow^l at Washington, but I never got very mad at them
about it.
Miss . Another thing about Miss Ridenour: We have not
a,ny recreation hours here, whereas when i\Iiss Gaither was here — the
former matron — we had two nights out of each week to go to the
gymnasium to play in there, and ever since Miss Ridenour has been
ere we have never had a night. The only exercise we have is going
to school and to work. Wlien we ask her to go to the gymnasium for
exercise she saj^s, ' 'Go to work; that is enough exercise." That is
the answer we get.
Representative Carter. Have you anything else, Miss ?
Miss . I think not.
The Chairman. ^Vllat about the food ?
Miss . There has been a great change since Mr. Linnen has
been here.
The Chairman. He has helped that much, has he ?
Miss . We have had enough bread, I know, since he has
been here.
The Chairman. I think that is all. I thank you very much.
Thereupon, at 11 o'clock p. m. the commission stood adjourned to
meet to morrow, Saturday, February 7, 1914.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1049
FEBRUARY 7, 1914.
Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs,
Carlisle, Pa.
The joint commission met in the Y . M. C. A. liall at the Carlisle
Indian School, Carlisle. Pa., at 8.30 o'clock a. m.
Present: Senators Robinson (chairman) and Lane; Representa-
tives Stephens and Carter.
TESTIMONY OF MR. WALLACE DENNY.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. You are assistant disciplinarian at the Carhsle
Institute ?
Mr. Denny. Yes.
The Chairman. How long have you been so engaged ?
Mr. Denny. Since 1907.
The Chairman. Were you at the school or in any wise connected
with it prior to that time ?
Mr. Denny. I was a student.
The Chairman. How long were you a student in Carlisle?
Mr. Denny. Ten years.
The Chairman. Wliere were you from when you came here?
Mr. Denny. Oneida, Wis.
The Chairman. Are you a full-blood ?
Mr. Denny. Well, I do not think so; I think about seven-eighths,
or somet'iing like that.
Representative Stephens. Of what tribe are you ?
Mr. Denny. Oneida, of Wisconsin.
The Chairman. Have you, during the time you have been em-
ployed here served in the same capacity you are now serving ?
Mr. Denny. Yes, sir. Assistant disciplinarian.
The Chairman. You liave been, I presume, familiar with condi-
tions in the school during your whole time as assistant disciplinarian?
Mr. Denny. Yes.
The Chairman. What are the general conditions now prevailing
at Carlisle with reference to discipline and good order among the
pupils ?
Mi\ Denny. The discipline hi our school here has been very poor;
very poor.
The Chairman. Is it improving, in A'our judgment?
Mr. Denny. Growing worse.
The Chairman. How long has it been growing worse ? How long
has that condition existed ?
Mr. Denny. I should say from one to three years.
The Chairman. Who is the chief disciplinarian ?
Mr. Denny. Mr. McKean.
The Chairman. To what do you attribute the bad order and its
increase in the school ? What is the cause of this lack of discipline
that is growing worse ?
Mr. Denny. Going a little way back
The Chairman. You may state anything you desu-e.
Mr. Denny. We had a superintendent here — Maj. Mercer, and
during his time the pupils were allowed to dance as many as two to
1050 CARLISLE INDIAN SCJIOOI.
three times a week, and just a general good times and tiial lasted
four years. When Mr. Friechnan came here he HMluced those social
privileges at the school, and it seems that the pupils have turned
against him ever smce. It seems to me the pupils were here just to
have a good time. We have students here — more students 15 to
20 years of age, and of course they just looked at the fun and good
time. Mr. Iriedman, the supermtendent, got to the point wiiere
he gave one reception during the month, and one sociable. W"'ll,
then tliey just thought he was against them all the time, and he put
liarder work in their school. He substituted from a quiet liour to
a study hour— regular scliool work in the evening and less sociable.
And their meals — they do not get a very good meal here. I must
admit that, because I was detailed in the dining room. Every third
day I go in there.
The Chairman. As I understand you, the following are among the
causes: First, the curtailment of social privileges; second, an increase
of the students' work
Mr. Denny. Well, harder work.
The (^HAiRMAN. Harder work; tJiird, the ])oor nu^als that are
served them; and, foiu'th
Mr. Denny. I want to mention the fourth. I do not know whether
this will come under that, but the fourth is that the employees do Jiot
work in harmony with the superintendent. I am safe to say that
about three-fourths of them are against the superintendent; in fact,
perha]:)s more. And those employees — I have heard it myself —
have discussed freely the superintendent's work before the students,
and of course, that arouses them.
The Chairman. Now, there is a feeling of general hostility on the
part of the students and on the part of tlu* greater ])art of the em-
ployees toward the superintendent ?
Mr. Denny. Yes.
The Chairman. You have explained some of the reasons that have
caused this feelino; on the part of the pupils toward the superintend-
ent. Now, what IS it that has so arrayed the employees against him ?
Why is it they do not cooperate with him ^
Mr. Denny. The superintendent, his intentions are all right, as far
as I know. He has got his heart in the W(U-k, and he is a hard worker;
but it seems to Tue lie is unfortunate; he is not a man that appeals to
people.
1 he Chairman. He can not secure the confidence of the pupils and
the employees ?
Mr. Denny. Yes; that is it; I can not express it.
The Chairman. What do you think is the remedy for these condi-
tions ? You may express yourself freely. What can be done ? Is
it necessary that something be done about the school; and if so,
what do you think ought to be done?
Mr. Denny. Yes. The only thing that has got to be done — that is,
you have got to change the head.
The Chairman. Got to get a new superintendent ?
Mr. Denny. Yes; a new superintendent, or something iias got to
be done, to t^ll you the truth.
The Chairman. Wliat do you tJiink of the school in its general
conditi(»ns and work? Do the pupils take hold of their studies with
interest?
CARLISLE IXDIAX SCHOOL. 1051
M\ Denny. Yes; those I have, they take hold of tlieir work; but
of course — I can not tell you, but there certainly is funny atmosphere
around here.
The Chairman. Now, would you characterize that atmosphere?
Is it one of mutiny or mere dissatisfaction and discontent ?
Mr. Denny. Dissatisfaction.
The Chairman. The dissatisfaction is general, is it <
Mr. Denny. Yes.
The Chairman. Now, you have referred to the meals not being
satisfactory when you were detailed to the dining room. I wish you
would be a little more explicit about that and tell wherein they were
not satisfactory. What did they serve, and how was it served ?
Air. Denny. As far as I could see— I walked around the dining
room, all over the dining room, and we are short of grub, we are short
of bread; everybody would be asking for bread, and before the
mati-on comes they tell the students there is no more bread in the
dining room, and we know that there is plenty of it in the bakery
shop. There is plenty of it in the cupboard, but they are allowed
just so much. Then we go to work and tap the bell to get them
quiet, and at the tap of the bell begin to send them out. They are
dissatisfied and kind of unruly. I don't say they are bad, but they
are hungry, and it is a mighty hard thing to please them.
The Chairman. Now, you are a man of experience and had long
been a student at the school before you were an employee here.
You say you believe a sufficient quantity of bread has not been
served to the pupils, and they were forced to go hungry on that
account ?
Mr. Denny. Yes.
The Chairman. Why is that true? Bread is cheap. Do you
understand why the policy of the administration of the school per-
mits a condition like that ?
Mr. Denny. I did try to trace it back, and pretty near got into
trouble about it. I went right straight to the superintendent and I
reported, so he called a meeting, I think, twice — yes; twice — and
they tried to look into it. It included the quartermaster, the cook,
the matron, the dining-room matron, and the girls' matron, and the
large boys' disciplinarian, and ]\ir. Stauffer, the music teacher, and
the baker, and they tried to remedy that. It went all right a day or
so, and then went right back. The quartermaster says to the superin-
tendent he is allowed to feed them just so much, and he is going to
stay at that limit.
The Chairman. Who fixes the limit?
Mr. Denny. He told me that there is a rule set for them, and he
can not go beyond that. The reason why I took this up to the
superintendent, because I know something is going to bust in the
dining room — something is going to give somewhere.
The Chairman. There is great dissatisfaction there, and you think
there is liable to be serious trouble about it ?
Mr. Denny. Yes; I realize — for instance, there is 10 large boys
weighing from 150 up to nearly 200 pounds, 10 at a table, and they
are growing, from 18 to 21, and they need to eat a lot more than I do,
because I have sto])ped growing and those fellows are just growing.
Thev have lots of life and lots of exercise outside in the air.
1052 CARLISLE IXDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. Their period of Ufe calls for an abundance of
food, of course?
Mr. Dexny. Yes.
The Chairman. And they do not get it?
Mr. Denny. They do not get it.
The Chairman. Have you noticed the service there with reference
to knives and forks and cups ? Has there been trouble about that ?
Mr. Denny. Yes.
The Chairman. Tell us what it is.
Mr. Denny. I complamed to the dining-room matron about it,
and she says she could not get it.
The Chairman. You mean there was not a sufficient supply of
them ?
Mr. Denny. They liave them here at the storehouse, as far as I
understand.
The Chairman. I mean in the dining room.
Mr. Denny. In the dining room they do not have enough, and,
of course, the boys — the boys, they are not going to eat the proper
way. They are going to make the best of it. Excuse me, I started
to make a statement a while ago that the boys realize — they say in a
report that Congress appropriated $170,000 or $172,000 for the
school, and we have plenty of hogs here at the school, and they are
sold. They realize that.
The Chairman. Are the products of the farm here used on the
table, or are they sold ?
Mr. Denny. We use all of the vegetables right here. They can
them in the fall, and then they used them to the students.
The Chairman. What about the meats ?
Mr. Denny. The hogs are sold, and, of course, they do not butcher
here any cattle. The cattle we have here they use for butter and
milk.
The Chairman. Hov,' often do they serve butter here ?
Mr. Denny. I can not say. I suppose about t\^^ce a week or three
times a week. In summer time they serve more, because then they
do not have so many students.
The Chairman. How often do they serve milk ?
Mr. Denny. I do not think they give them milk.
The Chairman. Do they get any eggs ?
Mr. Denny. No; we do not have any chickens. There are a few.
The Chairman. The}' do not serve any eggs on the table ?
Mr. Denny. No.
The Chairman. What are the moral conditions in the school ? Is
there much drinking among the boys ?
Mr. Denny. There has been.
The Chairman. Is it increasing or gromng less ?
Mr. Denny. It has been better this year than it used to be, but the
moral condition of the school here — it is better — well, it is a little
better than I have known that it was, than what it ought to be.
The Chairman. What is the (Irinking attributable to? Is there
much drunkenness ?
Mr. Denny. No. Those pupils that are (h-unkards before they
came here are the ones that are carr>dng on that.
The Chairman. What do you do with a boy when he gets drunk ?
CARLISLE INDL\X SCHOOL. 1053
Mr. Denny. Put him in the <;U:a(lh(.u-t'. We have a guardhouse
for that purpose.
The Chairman. How long do you keep them there, as a ruh^ (
Mr. Denny. I tell you my position here. I am in charge of the
small boys, and of course they do not get drunk.
The Chairman. You do not get any of those ?
Mr. Denny. That just runs to the large bo3"s. As far as I know,
I think, from one week to 10 days, or something Uke that.
The Chairman. What are the regulations of the school with refer-
ence to the punishment of the boys under your jurisdiction ? What
right have 3'ou to punish them and what kiiid of punishment are you
authorized to inflict ?
Mr. Denny. Well, I have locked them up at times when it is nec-
essary for a few days. I had one drunk this fall, and I locked him
up, I think, about a week or so.
The Chairman. Do you whip them (
Mr. Denny. Mr. Friedman gave me orders, and I don't whip
them any more. The}' are sometimes a little tart, you know, and I
put them across my knee and spank them.
The Chairman. Wliat is the name of the bo}^ that was said to
have been struck by your fist and hit by a ring above the eye here ?
Inspector Linnen. The boy who testified, his name was Braun.
Mr. Denny. That was Ira Cloud. The boy came back here — he
served here five years. He paid his own way, and when he got back
here he went to the hospital. Right away he had chicken pox,
and he was unruly in the hospital, and they could not control him.
Of course, as soon as they released liim I got him back, and before
I had a chance to put him in the shops at liis trade I kept him around
the quarters, and I could not make him work. I can not put him to
work. Weil, while he works, he will shirk, and during the summer
he told me himself he was drinking heavily — he was doing as he
pleased. He has not got a father — well, he has a father, but not a
legal one.
When I did go for him I asked him what was the reason he was
doing this, and he told me that he paid his way back to CarUsle
and could do exactly as he pleased — a boy about 17 years old. I
told him to do the work, and he deliberately refused. I tried to
put him to work in the afternoon, and he went to the store. I sent
for the boys and we got him back, and he was .very impudent to me.
He showed fight right away, and we had a regular })oxing match.
The Chairman. Did he strike you ?
Mr. Denny. Yes; right straight in my face. I was not ready; he
could not have hit me if I was ready. He certainly did soak me.
The Chairman. You struck him wlien he struck you (
Mr. Denny. I struck him, and I locked him up for a day.
The Chairman. Did you knock him down (
Mr. Denny. No; he went backward.
The Chairman. Did you have on a ring tliat cut his eye?
Mr. Denny. No; only this one here [exhibiting a plain band ring].
The Chairman. He struck you first ?
Mr. Denny. Yes; he struck me first.
The Chairman. There were some other boys that you were said to
have struck and knocked down a stairv.av. You remember that?
1054 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. Denny. Yes; I threw him down stairs. "VVe had a kind of
little insurrection here. One night the lights went out, and I got
my officer around the quarters there to control the door, and the
boys liked to jump out of the quarters, carrying on high. It was on
a masquerade night. I was standing in the hallway. There was
no lights, and they threw a stone — they knew where I was standing.
They threw a stone and just happened to miss me, and they threw
coal, in there near my office. It was pitch dark. I came out on the
porch. One of the boys back in the quarters he came up on the
porch, and he hit me with all his might, and he jumped back in the
quarters. I saw the boy. I recognized him at once, and I went up,
and he lied to me, and I told him to come down in the office. Refer-
ring to this boy — James Kalawat — he came from jail to Carlisle,
right from jail, and I always had trouble with him ever since he has
been here.
The Chairman. When you went back there — — •
Air. Denny. I brought him down and we had a tussle. I told him
to come down in the office. I wanted to see the boy — what was the
object of his hitting me like that. I brought him down; I got him
down the steps, down the stairway, and got him down in my office
by force. We had to tussle. He was a pretty good-sized boy. This
was last fall.
The Chairman. You were trying then to suppress disorder ?
Mr. Denny. Yes, sir; to suppress insurrection at the school. The
large boys went to work and they tore the bleachers down. They
cut Mr. McKean's head that very same night. Somebody hit him
with a stone.
The Chairman. What did that boy hit you with I
Mr. Denny. He grabbed hold of the stuff that was lying up there
in that trash box. I saw him running there, and the boys told me
about it, but I did not lock them up because they threw everything
down. I was trying to catch the boy.
The Chairman. Are you charged with any responsibility for the
conduct of the larger boys ?
Mr. Denny. No; I am not. I went by here last week and a fellow
on the third floor hit me with a chair — just missed my head. That
is the condition we have here. I have never done anything to the
larger boys. That is the attitude we have here toward those who are
trying to control the boys. For my part, I am trying to control those
boys. I myself admit I have some pretty bad boys.
The Chairman. Have you thought of a plan to stop so much
drinking in the school among the pupils ?
Mr. Denny. The only way you could stop that is to have a stand-
ard. Before the pupil would enter the school you would have some
standard
The Chairman. And not admit drunkards and drinkers to the
school ?
Mr. Denny. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You think they do not contract the habit of drink-
ing hoi'e, but contract it before they come here ?
Mr. Denny. Before they come here. That has been proven in
every case.
OABUSLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1055
The Chairman. 11" it is true iJuit tlie diinkini^ luibit is not con-
ti'iicted here but is contracted befoi-e the student conies, your sugges-
tion woukl seem to me to be a very intelligent one, because it would
prevent a demoralization that naturally results to refuse to admit
])upils wlio have a record for (h'iidving. Do you know whetlier any
effort is made to ascertain the habits of l)oys before they are admitted
to the school ^
Mr. Denny. Not to my knowledge.
The Chaihman. Anyoody is a(hnitted without regard to his rccmd ?
Mr. Denny. Yes; wo have some des])eratc cases liere.
I want to m;d<:e a suggestion here. This drinking goes on here,
and a kind of insurrection is always st.-irted i>y something like what
we call the "white trash" here. ])oys with just a little Indian Mood.
Like •>ootlegging — those l)oys coidd put their citizens' clothes on and
go to town in any saloon and get the whisky and ])riiig it hack here
and give it to the hoys, or give it to them in town.
The Chairman. Hov/ many of tliat class of Ik ys are in tlie school ?
Mr. Denny. Not so very many. I could not say in round numbers.
The Chairman. Don't you tliink that by calling the attention of
the (ifficers to these boys the persons who sell liquor in the town
coidd he prevented from furnishing them lituior?
Mr. Denny. You can hardly tell. The 'l)urtenders in town will
not — I know there is not one Ijurtendcr that will whisky to an Indian
hey.
The Chairman. If he knows it?
Mr. Denny. Yes.
The Chairman. It would seem that if the oflicei-s could oecome
acquainted with the boys in school who have so much white hlood in
them that there in no noticea])le Indian Idood, it might be very
easily prevented.
Mr. Denny. Yes. I give you an instance. This Louis Braun tiiat
was here last night I sent the boys in full imiform to cha])el with
the rest of the students. That Louis Braun sneaked out back of my
quarters, and another large boy, a white boy, a cousin of his, ])assed
him his citizen's clothes through the window, and he was changing
his clothing to leave the groimds for the niglit. Tiiose are the khid
of characters we have here.
The Chairman. Is Louis Braun among the tough boys in the school ?
Mr. Denny. No; not really. He has never done wrong here. He
goes to school all day and eats and sleeps largely.
The Chairman. What is the relationshij) betwe(>n the su])erin-
tendent and the bandmaster ?
Mr. Denny. A very close friend, as Far as I could understand.
The Chairman. Does he a])])ear to exeit any influence or control
over the superinteiulent ?
Mr. Denny. Yes.
The Chairman. In what particular?
Mr. Denny. Well, his suggestions; the siiggestions that he nndces;
his general stand. This bandmastei- is just a h-andmaster; he is not
a disci])linarian, Init lie is tak(Mi in about the disciiilinc of the school.
1056 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. NELLIE ROBERTSON DENNY.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
Tlie Chairman. You are the wife of the assistant disciplinarian?
Mrs. Denny. Yes, sir; of the small boys' quarters.
The Chairman. Were you formerly employed at Carlisle yourself?
Mrs. Denny. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. In what capacity?
Mrs. Denny. I entered as a teacher, taught four years, and then I
was clerk and assistant clerk for eight years, and in charge of the
outing system for two years.
The Chairman. Do you live on the school premises ?
Mrs. Denny. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How long have you lived there?
Mrs. Denny. You mean, taking my time as a student?
The Chairman, All together, yes.
Mrs. Denny. All together, I came here in 1880.
The Chairman. Have you been here practically continuously
since ?
Mrs. Denny. I was three years at home and about four years at a
normal school, but while I was at the normal school my name was
kept on the rolls here.
The Chairman. Are you familiar witli conditions ])revailing in
tlie Carlisle Institute ?
Mrs. Denny. Pretty well.
The Chairman. What is i\\v condition here with reference to
discipline among the students ? Is it good or bad ? How do the
pupils esteem the superintendent and what is the relationship
between students as a whole and the superintendent?
Mrs. Denny. I think they do not like him in the first place and
they do not seem to be afraid of him.
The Chairman. Do they respect him ?
Mrs. Denny. They do not respect him.
The Chairman. How long has tliis condition been prevailing in
tlie school.
Mrs. Denny. It has been growing. I can not say just when it
started, ])ut last year and this year it has been pretty bad.
The Chairman. What are the moral conditions ?
M]-s. Denny. Pretty good now among the girls. Of course, I can
not tell very much aljout the large boys.
The Chairman. Do you hear of much drinking among the boys ?
Mrs. Denny. Yes, sir. Not among oui- boys.
The Chairman. Tlie larger boys ?
Mrs. Denny. No. The small boys. We have liad only one drunk
ill small l)oys' cjuai'ters this 3^ear.
The Chairman. What ages are embraced within the small boys'
(juarters ?
Mrs. Denny. I think from 8 or 9 years u]) to about 20. Some of
our ofiicers are about 20 years old, I think.
The Chairman. Wliat nvo the cliarac^teiistics of the disorder that
you obs(n"ve and hear of among the ])upils ?
Mi's. De.nn'y. One of them is di-unkenness, and going lo town
without permission and not in u.niforms as they are required to be.
Well. thi'„t is what 1 can se(> oulwai'dly.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1057
The Chairman. Have you seen or heard manifestations of dis-
courtesy or disrespect from the students to the superintendent ?
Mrs. Denny. Just lately I heard.
The Chairman. Tell us about it.
Mrs. Denny. I think it was Mr. Denny that told me about it.
I forget where I got my information.
The Chairman. You do not know of your own personal knowledge ?
Mrs. Denny. No.
The Chairman. Well, you need not state it then. Have you
observed how the children are clothed and fed ?
Mrs. Denny. I have heard that they have not always had enough
food, and in my experience while I was outing agent I know they do
not get sufficient clothing while out.
The Chairman. When was that?
Mrs. Denny. This was about two years ago.
The Chairman. What about shoes ?
Mi's. Denny. In very bad condition. We had more requests for
shoes from outmg pupils, but they refused to furnish them. They
said they had used up their allowance, and consequently they either
had to take their earnings or patrons would give them shoes.
The Chairman. Have you ever visited the din'uig room while pupils
\ '3re being served ?
Mrs. Denny. Not recently. I have now and then taken visitors
jii there.
The Chairman. Is the complaint general among the pupils that
they are not properly fed ?
Mrs. Denny. I have heard it from the girls, and I have heard it
from the boys.
The Chairman. Do they complam they do not get enough bread ?
Mrs. Denny. Yes, sir; that is the complaint, and that the food is
not always properly cooked. They have a sufficient amount, but
not well cooked sometimes.
The Chairman. What is the general state of feeling on the part of
pupils at Carlisle now toward the management of the school ?
Mrs. Denny. I think they are — well, discouraged.
The Chairman. Are they rebellious ?
Mrs. Denny. At one time last spring they showed very strong
evidence of it. And this sprmg, too — of course I do not see this
myself, but I heard that they were, and I know that last year that
spirit was very strong, and now it seems to be. There is an under-
current that we all feel, but we just can not explain.
The Chairman. What is the relationship between the superintend-
ent and the employees ? Do you know how they regard him ?
Mrs. Denny. There is great discord, I think, in a great many cases.
The Chairman. What do you think is the remedy for the condi-
tions here ?
Mrs. Denny. It would bo either the removal of several employees,
or the removal of the head; one or the other.
The Chairman. One of those two remedies might prove successful
in restoring order in the school and bringing better conditions ?
Mrs. Denny. I hope so; yes, sir.
The Chairman. Have you any antagonism or personal animosity
toward the superintendent ?
35601— PT 11—14 7
1058 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mrs. Denny. Not any.
The Chairman. Your relationship with the employees was pleasant ?
Mrs. Denny. Yes, sir; it is, and always has been.
Representative Stephens. Have you a bakery here in the school?
Mrs. Denny. Yes, sir; quite a good bakery.
Representative Stephens. Where do they get their flour and ma-
terials ?
Mrs. Denny. I really do not know that.
Representative Stephens. Do they have any flour ground from
wheat raised on the school farm?
Mrs. Denny. I do not know that.
Representative Stephens. They raise vegetables on the farm,
don't they?
Mrs. Denny. Yes, sir; most of the vegetables are raised in the
garden we have down here.
Representative Stephens. Are those used on the tables ?
Mrs. Denny. I think they are.
Representative Stephens. Do they make butter, and have you
milk from the cows that belong to the school ?
Mrs. Denny. They have separated milk, I think, and butter about
once a week, I have heard the girls say.
Representative Stephens. Do they sell any of the butter from
the cows belonging to the school?
Mrs. Denny. I could not say about that.
Representative Stephens. Do you know anything about the sys-
tem of getting students here from all over the country? Do they
send men out from this school to collect students ?
Mrs. Denny. Now and then they do; but I think most of that work
is done by correspondence, which Mr. Meyer handles.
Representative Stephens. Mr. Meyer then writes to the reserva-
tions and parents of the children ?
Mrs. Denny. Yes; and to ex-students and graduates. He works
through them.
Representative Stephens. Works through the students that have
been here, and they collect the students that are sent here ?
Mrs. Denny. Yes; and then, I think the agents 1 know that
agents and other emploj^ees have brought several parties here.
Representative Stephens. Are they brought here against their
will?
Mrs. Denny. I do not think so. I do not think any pupils are re-
ceived before they sign what they call an application blank.
Representative Stephens. Do you know anything about the girl
that was beaten by Bandmaster Stauffer?
Mrs. Denny. I heard about that last spring.
Representative Stephens. You did not see it?
Mrs. Denny. I did not see it; no, sir; I do not know much about
the circumstances.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. BERTHA D. CANFIELD, TEACHER.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
Mrs. Canfield, I have been at Carlisle 14 years and in the Indian
Service 20 years. My experience entitles me to stand in protection
of these children.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1059"
Mr. Friedman has given his first attention to the outside appear-
ance of the school, but there is nothing in buildings when the moral
standing of the school is neglected.
He has used the good name Gen. Pratt made for the school to ad-
vertise himself. I feel that he is wholly unfit for superintendent^
that he has neglected his duty to the pupils in talking to them and
advising them.
Gen. Pratt never failed in talking to them each day and telling
them what to do; helping them in ways that were uplifting in char-
acter.
The moral side of the school has never before been as low in the
history of the school as under Mr. Friedman.
He failed to assist and cooperate with !Miss Gaither in most serious,
cases of disciphne with the girls.
He ordered Miss Gaither to go with the girls to the gymnasium.
She protested, saying there was no one on duty at girls' quarters;
that it was unsafe to leave the punished girls there alone. But at his
request she was obliged to go ; the result was that some boys got into
girls' quarters and spent the evening with the girls.
, whose immoral character was well known, was one
of these girls. After all this was allowed to sing in
public entertainments before the pupils and was taken to public places
with the band, to Harrisburg to sing before the governor, and other
public places, singing "Redwing" and dressing in Indian costume.
This was done against the wish of the matron. Miss Gaither had
requested before this that be sent home. If the
matron's wish had been complied with in the beginning, it would
have been better for and her associates..
At the pageant at Philadelphia a year ago last faU a number of
these girls were taken for public display with a large number of boys.
There was an excellent chaperone with them, but it was not safe for
the girls to be out of her sight. The first downfall of one of our best
girls occurred there. After her return to the school Amos Komah,
one of the boys who was with her at the pageant, went to her room
and spent the night. This was reported the next day to Miss Gaither.
was to go to Philadelphia again to sing, but Miss Gaither said
she should not go with her permission. Mr. Friedman was very angry,
just furious, that she had made the report until after she had been
to Philadelphia and returned. Both Amos Komah and •
were sent home, each to theh own home without being compelled to
marry.
, a returned student, came back to take telegraphy,
but was not allowed to enter this department. They would have
admitted her as a pupU ; she refused to be admitted as a pupil in the
regular school course; she would not sign for anything else except
for telegraphy. She went to town to the hotel. The people at the
hotel asked the school to see that she was removed from there. The
disciplinarian was requested to take her to Harrisburg. This ho did.
Mr. Friedman refused to purchase a ticket to take her farther than
Harrisburg. The girl said she had no money to buy a ticket to take
her to her home. The disciplinarian gave her what change he had
in his pocket, which was 40 cents, and told her to look up the Salva-
tion Army headquarters for protection. So she was left unaided and
unprotected in Harrisburg.
1060 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The superintendent has gone to the extreme in cooperating with
Miss Ridenour, the present matron. Sixteen or more girls have been
expelled within the past year. Some of these girls who have been
sent home have been unjustly treated. , who had a
food record in the country and here was a good little girl. So far as
know her only misbehavior was that she was impudent to the matron
in defending her sister. Mrs. Posey, who saw the treatment of the
child when she was expelled, said she would never forgive them for
such treatment to the child.
-, one of the girls who had graduated, was here taking
the commercial course. She has made a good record and many
friends. She was taken out of line, expelled from school, sent home
immediately without chance for defense. The school should help
and build up character rather than condemn these girls.
If the superintendent had done his duty it would not have been
necessary to have expelled these girls.
Mr. Friedman gave Miss Gaither to understand that she had nothing
to do with the discipline of the girls at the hospital, although at that
time the discipline there was very lax.
was here at the school taking training as nurse.
After she graduated in the academic course and returned home she
made known her condition and that Joseph Loudbear, one of the
boys at school was the father of the child. The school did not
compel Joseph to marry her although his conduct and record here
had been such that no one doubted that what she said was true;
instead he was recommended to be sent as an employee to some
western school and he did not marry her until some Christian people
followed the case.
, one of our favorite Alaskan girls fell the victim of
a football boy: Sampson Bird met her in tow.n on girls' day. The
amusements, such as dancing and receptions, have been detrimental
to the school as they have been carried to the extreme.
It is useless to maintain a school like this without having a strong
moral Christian man at the head as superintendent. Mr. Friedman
has never had the confidence or respect of the pupils. He does not
work in sympathy with employees. When I have gone to him about
matters concerning myself and the school he has told me to get out;
that he would sign my transfer. He would talk in a loud tone,
growl, and be heard by the orderlies all over the house; try to frighten
and bluff us by such manners.
He posed as a friend to the Indians. At the time my third assistant,
Mrs. Parker, resigned, October, 1913, I wrote to Mr. Friedman asking
if I might put Ada Curtis in charge of the mending room under my
supervision; that she was an aU-day worker in the sewing room and
had been an employee in the West and was a nice deservi.ng girl and
Jiceded the money. I was informed by the office that pupils were
ji,ot put in charge of work. I was ordered to put Miss Searight in
charge of the mending, leaving her class, which was more important
work, without a teacher. This showed his lack of interest in the
pupil.
Without consulting me he sent Miss Ridenour, a stranger, to town
to get a woman to act as assistant. He also sent her to town to
buy 20 yards of material for dresses when we had material in stock.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1061
Drunkenness : I have seen many boys brought home from town
just as drunk as they could be. Under this administration there has
been more intemperance than ever before.
I make these statements wiih the thought in mind that they may
help to make conditions better for the school.
The Chairman. It seems that there has been recently quite a
number of cases of young lady pupils in the school who have been
unfortunate in the worst way possible. What do you attribute
these incidents to, and what do you think is the remedy for it ?
Mrs. Canfield. I think the first thing we need is a father over the
school, or somebody whom the children will trust and respect.
The Chairman. \Yhat is the relation of the pupils in the school
to the superintendent?
Mrs. Canfield. As I have stated, they never have had the proper
respect for him, and no love for him whatever.
The Chairman. How does he treat them? What occasions that,
in your judgment?
ilrs. Canfield. Well, he never has talked to them, never has
been a father over them as he should have been, and he has evaded
the responsibility.
The Chairman. Do you think it is due to natural temperament or
indifference and lack of interest?
Mrs. Canfield. I think it is just lack of interest, it has im-
pressed me so that it is.
The Chairman. How do Miss Ridenour and the young lady pupils
of the school get along ?
Mrs. Canfield. Not at all well. The girls are very unhappy under
her. I think Miss Ridenour is a good worker, but she seems to be
unfortunate as a mother over them.
The Chairman. There is a general state of hostility, is there?
Representative Stephens. What do you mean by "unfortunate" ?
]\Irs. Canfield. She does not seem to have tact with them. I
think she has been accustomed to a very different class of girls from
what she has here.
The Chairman. How about her temper and disposition?
Mrs. Canfield. She seems not to have very good control of her
temper.
Representative Stephens. Does she have the confidence of the
girls in any respect ?
^Irs. Canfield. No; not at all. I am sorry to say she has not.
Representative Stephens. They do not consult ^\^th her about
any of their troubles?
Mrs. Canfield. The girls say that when they go to consult with
her she does not see them; she is not ^^^lling to consult with. them.
The Chairman. You sa}^ there were sixteen girls expelled in less
than
Mrs. Canfield. That is just the ones that I have track of.
The Chairman. There may be more?
Mrs. Canfield. I do not know how many more. There may
have been som.e sent home from the country.
The Chairman. What are the reasons principally for these ex-
pulsions ?
Mrs. Canfield. They are mostl}' for immorality except three or
four, and .
1062 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. What are the relations of the employees toward
Mr. Friedman ?
Mrs. Canfield. I think they generally feel that he is not capable.
The Chairman. Then there is no cordiality of feeling between
the pupils and the superintendent or the employees and the super-
intendent ?
Mrs. Canfield. No.
The Chairman. The relations are stramed both as to the pupils
and the employees ?
Mrs. Canfield. Yes, except just a f^w employees.
The Chairman. Is the discipline in the school improving or grow-
ing worse ?
Mrs. Canfield. Well, it is not any better. Things have been
rather obstreperous the last few weeks.
The Chairman. Explain a little bit more in detail what you mean.
Are the pupils rensentful and rebellious or mutinous ?
Mi's. Canfield. Yes, they seem to be rebellious, a good many of
them. Boys have been drinking.
The Chairman. Do you know of loyal friends of the superintend-
ent among the young men ? Do you know who they are ?
Mrs. Canfield. The pupils ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mrs. Canfield. No; I understood that William Garlow was. I
do not know that he is a loyal friend, but I understand that he was
ready to betray his fellows.
The Chairman. Now, you have supervision of the sewing de-
partment?
Mrs. Canfield. Yes.
The Chairman. How many persons are engaged in that depart-
ment ?
Mrs. Canfield. I have three assistants.
The Chairman. They detail girls to take instruction in that work?
Mrs. Canfield. Yes.
'The Chairman. How many girls are usually detailed?
Mrs. Canfield. I have, I think, 42 in one division now, and 46 in
another; 4() in the morning, and 42 in the evening.
The Chairman. Do they make pretty good progress in that work?
Mrs. Canfield. Some of them do pretty well. Of course, they
are children, most of them.
The Chairman. What about the clothino- that is supplied to chil-
dren here ? Is it sufficient and comfortable ?
Mrs. Canfield. Yes, I think so. I tliink that the clothing is satis-
factory, as far as I know. There is great destruction of clothing here.
The Chairman. Naturally, I suppose ?
Mrs. Canfield. Yes.
The Chairman. Is the clothing of the small boys sent to you to be
repaired ?
Mrs. Canfield. Everytliing, except their trousers and coats. They
are not sent to us. They used to be, however, and I do not know
why they stopped sending them.
The Chairman. You never had any information about it?
Mrs. Canfield. No.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1063
TESTIMONY OF MR. JOHN WHITWELL, PRINCIPAL TEACHER.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. You are the principal teacher at Carlisle Institute ?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How many pupils are there in this school ? What
is the average daily attendance now?
]Mr. Whitwell. We have 816 on the roll. I have not a report on
the average to-day.
The Chairman. Any given day that you have it for.
Mr. Whitwell. At the present time all except eight are in attend-
ance, so that there are on the roll about 708. There is 160 of those
in the country.
The Chairman. How long have you been employed as principal
teacher here ?
Mr. Whitwell. About six years.
The Chairman. What are your duties in a general way as principal
teacher ?
^Ir. Whitwell. Well, to outline programs for the whole school — ■ — •
The Chairman. How many teachers are there under your super-
vision ?
Mr. Whitwell. There are 15.
The Chairman. All these you refer to now give class instruction,
do they?
jVIr. Whitwell. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What is the general state of the school with
reference to academic work and progress in studies? Is it satis-
factory to you, Mr. Whitwell ?
Mr. Whitwell. It never has been.
The Chairman. Do you think it is improving, or not?
Mr. Whitwell. I have noticed an improvement, lately, due to
the fact that I am now giving all of my time to the academic work,
whereas for two or three years previously I was spending half of
my time up at the office on clerical work.
The Chairman. Do you visit the various class rooms ?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; that is part of my duties.
The Chairman. How often do you get around ?
]Mr. Whitwell. Well, I have no stated time to visit. Now, for
instance, this last three days we have been writing compositions on
"citizenship," according to instructions from the Indian Ofhce.
We had very explicit instructions, and I made a point to visit the
rooms a little more during the wTiting of those compositions than
I otherwise would. But, as a rule, my duties in the office and the
demands made of me in the offfce, of course, you realize that every
serious case of discipline comes to me, and I must be ready when
they come. As a rule my office work keeps me from spending very
much time in the class room. Then I have other ways of supervising
the work of the teachers. Their work must come in daily, so I
know what is going on in every room every day.
The Chairman. Do many cases of discipline come to you ?
Mr. Whitwell. Not many serious cases; quite a number of what
I would consider — the teachers sometimes considers them serious.
The Chairman. To what do you attribute the fact that the progress
in class-room work is not satisfactory ?
1064 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. Whitwell. First of all, there has been considerable pressure
put on the industiial work. One of my- own main efforts as principal
teacher has been to correlate the academic and industrial work,
but still the superintendent, leaning almost entirely that way himself,
has made it a little harder. Teachers have said to me that it seems
he cares nothing about the academic side of it. Then the athletic
influence too — the pupils do not seem to fully realize the advantages
they have in that line.
The Chairman. You think undue prominence is given to athletics ?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes; I do.
The Chairman. Are pu])ils taken away from the industrial work
and out of the classes for athletic engagements ?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes; they are taken directly, but there is more
what I might call taken indirectly. For instance, if there were not
so many boys on the football squads — our best boys and the boys
best able to do the work- it would not be necessary to take students
away from their half day in school.
The Chairman. How many boys are there on football squads, for
instance ?
Mr. Whitwell. It would be hard for me to say, but I have seen
five and six teams playing at once and a number on the side lines. It
looks like practically the whole school is over there. I do not very
often go over there to look at it.
The Chairman. Have they the baseball s])irit pretty well devel-
oped?
Mr. Whitwell. There is practically no baseball. They substi-
tuted "la crosse" for baseball.
The Chairman. Relative to the accounts of the pupils and the
sending of checks. "VMiat have you to say about that?
Mr. Whitwell. At one time after Mr. Friedman first came here
he had me sign the pu]iils' checks. I signed them for him. As you
can see, there is a large number of checks. For instance, every town
day, as we call it, if it is a boys' day to go to town it is boys' checks,
and if it is the girls' day to go to town it is the girls' cliecks. It took
quite a little of his time and he had me sign those checlss. The regu-
lations were that they were not to draw more than one-half of their
savings account — so much allowed each week. I kept on sending
those checks until the time of the Pennsylvania game. Then there
was an unusual number, more than four times as many as had been
coming to me, and I inquired of the clerk, or made the remark, how it
was there were so many and if all tliese were entitled to draw. He
said, " Well, wepayno attention to tlieregulations for the Pennsylvania
game; we allow them to overdraw. If th.ey have any money at all
we allow them to get it."
I studied that over and realized that that was hard on some of
them. Of course, it was only natural they would want to go to the
game whether they could aft'ord it or not. Then I realized it was vio-
lating the regulations, and if I did it once I would establish a prece-
dent, so I refused to sign them and ex])lained to- Mr. Friedman why.
He says, "Well, that is notliing; somebody else will sign them."
The Chairman. Is it not a fact that ])U])ils s]kmi(1 a considerable
amount of tJieir own money, that they can ill aft'ord to s])arc, in rail-
road fare and personal expenses attending these football games?
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1065
Mr. Whitweli.. Not any extent, except the Pennsylvania game.
There is a particiihir effort made then, because they cKarter a special
car and they have to have so many in order to get the car.
The Chairman. What special privileges are accorded the boys on
the football squads ?
Mr. Whitwell. Well, m the first place, they have a separate
building. For instance, comparing the athletes witli the ofhcei-s, the
officere have to room with the rest of the boys and take just what the
rest of the boys take. The athletes have their own special buikling,
specially furnished rooms, and their own training table, and they are
looked M]) to cjuite different from an officer. An officer is nothing
com])ared with an athlete, so much so that few boys care to be
officers.
The Chairman. What effect does that have on the other pupils ?
Mr. Whitwell. It naturally leads the others to think that if they
can get into athletics there is something to gain by it.
The Chairman. Do you know of instances of boys being put on the
student roll, sometimes as employees, to play football ?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes; I do. Bruce Groesbeck was carried on the
roll as an employee until the football season came. He was carried
as a student during the football season. He was put back on the
employees' roll after the football season.
The Chairman. Is there an agricultural department ?
Mr. Whitwell. No, sir; there used to be.
The Chairman. Why was it abolished ?
Mr. Whitwell. Well, there seemed to be nobody to push that side
of it, and it seemed as if the superintendent did not care for it. Prob-
ably the trades were more in his mind at that time. I do not know.
Representative Stephens. When was it abolished ?
Mr. Whitwell. That must have been, as near as I can state, three
or four years ago. We had an agricultural teacher and a nice depart-
ment. The farms are over there now.
The Chairman. You used to have a department of telegraphy and
a department of harness making?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Why were those both abolished ?
Mr. Whitwell. Telegraphy practically abolished itself. It did
not have any success. It was evidently a mistake to put it in. For
instance, we had to give up one of our schoolrooms to it and put the
class in a less desirable room. There were never more than five or six
boys in it. The teacher could not be there more than an hour, and
the pupils were resting the remainder of the time.
Representative Stephens. They still carry that in their catalogue?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes; it is in the catalogue, and the agricultural
department, too.
The Chairman. And harness making, too ?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes; and harness-making.
The Chairman. Do you know how the athletic fund is handled, in a
general way ?
Mr. Whitwell. All I know is that we outsiders only kno w that four
of them have anything to do with it — the superintendent, the football
coach, our athletic director, and Mr. Miller, who keeps the accounts
and is paid something for keeping them out of the athletic money; and
then they are audited by John W. Ray.
1066 CABLISLE IXDIAX SCHOOL.
The Chaieman. Are additional salaries paid Govemment employ-
ees out of athletic funds ?
Mr. Whitwell. It is commonly reported so; and I know that when
Maj. Mercer was leaving here he expected to retire, and he was fighting
to come back; and he asked me if I would be ^\illing to be assistant
superintendent when he came back, and I said I preferred my own hne
of work. ''Well," he said, ''you can work over there, and I will see
you get 8500 more out of the athletic money." So, I judge from that
and I know from questions asked me by the coach — it seems he is in
touch with those who draw salaries out of both places.
The Chairman. The coach occupies a Govemment building ?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir.
The Chairmax. And receives a salary of S4,000 ?
Mr. Whitwell. I do not know.
The Chairman. He is not a Govemment employee?
Mr. Whitwell. No, sir.
Representative Stephens. What is his name?
Mr. Whitwell. Glenn Wamer, the coach.
The Chairman. Do you know the assistant quartermaster, Mr.
Stewart i
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. ^Yhat are his habits with reference to drinking ?
Mr. Whitwell. Well, from rumors here and from what I do know,
I would consider him a man of very poor habits.
The Chairman. What did he do that gave him that reputation ?
Did he drink i
Mr. Whitwell. Yes; he drank. He was found drunk on the
premises with one of our football boys.
The Chairman. Was he drunk on the grounds here, you say?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; he was found drunk by Mr. Dickey.
The Chairman. With one of the football boys (
Mr. Whitwell. One of the football boys.
The Chairman. What was his name i Do you remember?
Mr. Whitwell. Gus Welch. He is not here now; he has gone
home.
The Chairman. Stewart is not here either, is he ?
Mr. Whitwell. Xo.
The Chairman. What is the state of feeling between you and the
superintendent i
Mr. Whitwell. It is anything but what it should be.
The Chairman. It is not good ?
Mr. Whitwell. It is not good.
The Chairman. What caused that ?
Mr. Whitwell. Well, in the first place it is a pretty long story to
give it to you as it ought to be.
The Chairman. Give it as briefly as you can.
Mr. Whitwell. I doubt if there was ever any extra good feeling
between us, although I was glad when he came here as superintendent,
and even when others began to criticise him I stood up for him.
When pupils wrote "the Jew" and such things on the blackboard, and
the teacher reported it to me, I took it up before the whole student
body, roasted them as well as I knew how, and tried to shame them.
But, of course, he never took any great interest in academic work.
CARLISLE IXDL\N SCHOOL. 1067
and I am an academic man, pure and simple, and, as I have tried to
show, I have tried to correlate the industrial work with it.
We got along fairly well — that is, we had no serious trouble — until
he began to run for Connnissioner of Indian Affairs, I might say. It
seems" there had been a protest sent m against his an})ohitment as
commissioner on the grounds that he had falsified tiie attendance
reports here. When I first came I had nothing to do ^^-ith the at-
tendance reports, although I had kept them at Haskell all the time I
was there. Here it was arranged for in another way. A clerk in
Mr. Miller's office had complete charge of it, and it did not fall to the
academic department. So, I was somewhat surprised, when some-
time in 1910, one of these reports, completed, was sent down to me
to sign. I did not want to be obstmate, and while I thought it quite
hkely there were some names on there that should not be on it I did
not have tune to look into it. So, I simply signed the report and
decided I would look into it before signhig another if it was sent to
me.
The next time it was sent again. Then I had made inquiries, and
I asked the clerk who made it out — I said, "Are you carrying any
names on here that are not present?'' ''Oh, yes," she said. Well,
she was only a clerk, and not responsible for the reports, so I sent a
note to Mr. Miller like this: '*Is there any authority for carrying
pupils on the roll who are no longer present? If so, I would be slad
to sign the report. If not, I can not sign it, because I have had
experience in these things before" — or something hke that. I got
no answer to the note. The report was signed by some other person.
Then about a year from that time Mr. Peaire made an hivestigation
and found a large number of students on the roll
The Chaiem AN . How many ?
Mr. Whitwell. If I remember right, it was pretty nearly 200,
on the roll whose names should not have been there. I undei-stand
that he made a very detailed report in regard to it.
Well, that did not affect me, because I do not have anything to
do with makmg the reports, but when Mr. Friedman was called to
task for it he gave the making of the reports to me.
Now, there was nothing nm-easonabte about that; the principal
teacher does that in other schools, although up to this time the thmg
had been plamied in an entirely different way in this school. For
mstance. the attendance was kept by this clerk, and not only the
attendance, but aU the data. It was a historical record, and it was
combined with the attendance, so it was impossible to separate one
from the other.
I said. "I will have to take these reports over to my office." He
said, "Xo; you can not do that, because we want to use them here."
I protested, and saitl it would make it very hard for me to supervise
my own work under those chcumstances. "Well," he said, "we
have to have this thing kept right," and I told him he could keep
it. So I commenced then to keep those records in the fuiancial
clerk's office, the records that had been kept by a special clerk up to
that time. Consequently, I was away from my regular work. I have
kept those reports ever since. But about a year ago Mr. Friedman
allowed me to have a duplicate set of cards made and keep the at-
tendance oidy in my own office, and that is the way the acailemic
work has improved, because I am here to look after it.
1068
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. Now, Mr. Whitwell, the effect of representing the
enrollment as largely in excess of what it actually was, if I under-
stand the matter, was to make a better showing for the school as to
expense per pupil than it actually would be under the facts ?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes; that is the idea. Every superintendent likes
to show up a large enrollment. Then, at that time, he was running
for commissioner
The Chairman. In that connection, I am going to insert in the
record a copy of the report of Mr. Peirce as supervisor, and you need
not go into that in further detail at this time.
(The report referred to is as follows:)
Report of Charles F. Peirce, Supervisor.
Carlisle, Pa., February 20, 1911.
In comiDariug the actual attendance reports, as shown by the daily reports from
the matron and disciplinarian, and the quarterly report for the quarter ending Decem-
ber 31, 1910, it became evident that there were many more pupils on the attendance
report than were actually entitled to enrollment.
As shown by the quarterly report for the second quarter, the enrollment was 1,042
pupils, while the records of the matron and disciplinarian showed that there were
actually on the premises at that time 645 pupils, in addition to 211 who were on the
outing list. This left a discrepancy of 186 pupils, 96 of whom were carried as "On
leave" and 90 as "Runners," some of whom had been absent from the school for
nearly three years.
In looking into the daily records for the month of January, it was found that 90
pupils were dropped from the rolls on the 23d of th.it month. The cause of this action
was not learned until I reached the Indian Office on February 17, and found that the
same had been taken in accordance with orders from the department, as a result of an
inspection made by Inspector McLauglilin some weeks before. Inasmuch as the
cases, so-called "Runners," has no doubt been thoroughly investigated and reported
upon by the inspector, I will make no further reference to them, except to say that
the period of absence from the school in their cases exceeds that of the so-called "On
leave" pupils.
The following shows the exact enrollment and attendance on December 31, 1910,
and on February 7, 1911, when the discrepancies were first noted:
On prem-
ises.
Outing
pupils.
On
leave.
Runners.
Total.
Dec. 31, 1910:
Girls
240
405
119
92
46
50
1
89
406
Boys
636
Total
645
211
96
90
1,042
After dropping 96 pupils on January 23, 1911, as ordered by the department, the
records on February 7, 1911, showed the following:
On prem-
ises.
Outing.
On leave.
Runners.
Total.
Feb. 7, 1911:
Girls
246
415
117
81
33
48
.396
Bovs
4
548
Total
661
198
81
4
944
In looking into the "On leave " records, I found that many of these had been absent
from the school for months and years, as some were dead, others married, and others
employed in the Indian School Service.
The names of the "On-leave" pupils, with date of departure from the school and
number of days carried on rolls after the same, is as follows, the same having been taken
from the daily records of the disciplinarian and matron :
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
1069
Name of pupil.
Time of de-
parture.
Number of
days car-
ried on roll.
1. Roy Fooder
2. Honry Sutton
3. Wm. P. Cook
4. Lawrence Poodry
5. Ed. Williams
6. Walter Robertson
7. Harry Woodbury
8. Jas. Lydick ".
9. John Doyle
10. Ned Stevenson
11. Mitchell Moscow
12. Howard Purse
13. Samp.son Burd
14. Wm. Beaudion
15. O.scar Boyd i...
16. Joe Cannon
17. George Chew
18. Jas. Crowe
19. Judson Caby
20. Earl De.xtate
21. John Dond
22. John Ginnes
23. Michael Gordon
24. Walter Hamilton (married)
25. Peter Houser
26. Abel Hopkins
27. Leonard Jacobs
28. Jo,seph Libby
29. Oce Locustt
30. Elsworth Manning
31. Wm. M. Bull
32. John Menhart (penitentiary)
33. Wm. Newashe
34. Jacob Paul w
35. Elbert Payne
36. Walker Peune
37. Howard Peirce
38. Allison Pollock (no record— several months) .
39. Chas. M. Ross
40. Curtis Redneck
41. Reno Howland
42. Chas. W. Ryan
43. Asa Sweetcorn
44. Hulsie Seneca
45. Arthur Smith
46. John White
47. John AVeslebear
48. Mitchel White
49. Arline Allen
50. Elizabeth Baird (employed at Pipestone). . .
51. Bessie Button
52. Esther Browning
53. (irace Burnette
54. Emma Clairmont
55. Agnes Cabay
56. Lizzie Cardish (married)
57. Rachel Chase
58. Olive Chisholm
59. Mary Cox
60. Edna Dextate
61 . Lucy Desautel
63. Mamie Bilstrop ,
64. Olive Gordon ,
65. Flora Jones (married) ,
66. Bctsv Johnny John...
67. Helen M. Eagle
68. MoUie Mantel ,
69. Fleeta Renville
70. Germaine Renville
71. Grace Sampson ,
72. Ida Lands
73. Lizzie L. Eagle
74. Eva Symonds
75. Ro.se Simpson
76. Julia Terronce
77. Celestinc Types
78. Su.san Wright
79. Romena Waggoner
81. Rose Fleets (dead)
May 13,
July 4,
Apr. 28,
May 16,
June 22,
....do..
June 7,
June 2,
July 12,
Dec. 1,
May 10,
June 30,
Nov. 28,
Aug. 31,
Mar. 15,
Jan. 9,
Nov. 7,
Sept. 23,
July 12,
Mar. 4,
Nov. 6,
Nov. 7,
Apr. 15,
Oct. 25,
Nov. 23,
Jan. 3,
June 23,
Jan. 7,
Jan. 17,
Aug. 5,
Jan. 27,
July 1,
Nov. 28,
Jan. 24,
Jan. 12,
July 22,
June 20,
1909
1909
1910
1910
1910
igio'
1910
1910
1910
1910
1908
1910
1909
1910
1911
1910
1910
1910
1909
1909
1910
1910
1909
1910
1911
1909
1911
1911
1909
1910
1910
1910
1911
1909
1910
1908
Total .
Dec. 1,
Nov. 26,
Nov. 3,
Apr. 1,
Nov. 28,
June 24,
Mar. 3,
.Tan. 24,
Oct. 16,
Sept. 8,
Dec. 19,
June 30,
Oct. 21,
Nov. 17,
May 17,
Jan. 19,
July 12,
Dec. 6,
Dec. 7,
Feb. 4,
Dec. 7,
June 20,
Nov. 25,
Nov. 23,
Oct. 12,
Aug. 15,
Apr. 8,
Aug. 24,
Jan. 4,
June 23,
....do..
July 9,
July 27,
Sept. 10,
Dec. 19,
June 23,
Mar. 7,
Nov. 25,
Nov. 8,
Sept. 1,
Feb. 4,
1910
1910
1910
1910
1910
1910
1909
1911
1909
1910
1910
1909
1910
1910
1910
1911
1910
1910
1910
1911
1909
1909
1910
1910
1910
1910
1910
1909
1911
1909
1909'
1910
1910
1910
1910
1910
1910
1910
1909
1911
1070
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
There being no record as to the departure of Allison Pollock (No. 39) tliis would show
that 90 "On-leave" pupils have been carried on the rolls for a total of 22,071 days, or
that the 80 pupils have been carried for an average period of 275.9 days each. As
stated heretofore, the "Runners" had been carried for a still longer period before,
being dropped, January 23, 1911.
The record as to runaway pupils absent without leave on February 7, 1911, give
the following information:
Name.
Departure.
Days
absent.
82. Jerome Kennerly.
83. Frank Marshall..
84. John Miles
85. Clyde Redeagle...
Dec. 27,1910
Jan. 24,1910
Dee. 23,1910
Jan. 3,1911
Total.
The above shows that the four runaway pupils absent on February 7, 1911, have
been absent for an average period of 35.2 days.
It appears that it has been the custom to carry the "On-leave" pupils for a time,
in order to "keep the average attendance up to the proper figure," and tliis has been
passed over from time to time, doubtless, until the number of days such pupils were
absent reach such an enormous figure.
Upon the attention of Supt. Friedman being called to this matter and he made to
understand that average enrollment was not considered, instead of average attendance
the 81 "On leave' ' pupils were dropped from the rolls on February Stti, so that the
actual enrollment of the school on February 9, 1911, was as follows:
On
premises.
Outing.
Runners.
Total.
Girls
246
415
117
81
363
Boys
4
500
Total
661
198
4
863
I would say here that the record of issues of rations from the commissary does not
show that rations have been issued in excess of the number actually present.
As is shown on the quarterly report for the second quarter, no less than 85 tribes
were enrolled, coming from all parts of the United States, and one is lead to believe
that either Carlisle has been quite active in discovering Indian tribes in Massachu-
setts, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Virginia, Louisiana, and other States heretofore
unexplored by representatives of the Indian School Service, or that the school has
been remarkably well advertised.
Believing that there were pupils in attendance who were not entitled to enroll-
ment, an individual examination of each pupil was decided upon, and in company
with Supervisor Peairs a careful examination of every pupil on the premises was
made.
This examination proved that our doubts as to eligibility of certain pupils were
well grounded, for a number of positive ineligibles were found. A report covering
these cases, as well as those whose homes are within reach of and who have attended
public schools, will be made special as soon as additional data can be obtained.
The matter of necessity for enrollment of New York Indians is also made a subject
for special report. This individual examination of pupils also revealed the fact that
the ages as given on the quarterly report are not correct, the report generally showing
the age at admission from one to four years ago instead of at the present time.
The scheme for industrial training seems to be well carried out, for time is given regu-
larly to instruction, as well as to productive work. A copy of a letter from Superin-
tendent Friedman to heads of all departments is herewith inclosed, and I find that
the order is being well carried out.
The industrial force of employees is an exceptionally strong one, and good results
are being obtained.
It is noted, however, that in the sewing room too much manufacturing of articles
furnished on the annual estimate is done at the expense of instructive work. Such
articles as canton flannel underwear, boys' wool and white shirts, are made here,
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1071
while it other places they are secured with the annual estimate supplies, thus reliev-
ing the sewing room of a vast fimount of unnecessary work, and giving time for the
desired regular instruction.
The outing system as managed here seems to be a very important faature of the
work, and can not help but be very valuable training to the yourg Indians who are
given the opportunity offered them. I have gone over the records of the office of
the outing department very carefully and believe that the school is keeping in very
close touch with pupils and patrons. It is evident that care is taken in placing the
pupils in homes of good character; also that the character of pupils, religious affilia-
tions, etc., are taken into consideration in all cises. Two outing agents, one for boys
and one for girls, give their whole time to this work, being in the field nearly all of
the time, visiting the pupils in their homes, and making df ily reports as to their con-
dition, etc.
At this date, February 11, 1911, there are 202 pupils "placed out," and arrangements
are being made whereby several hundred more will "go to the country" about the
Ist of April.
At present 24 States and Territories are represented in the outing list, as is shown
by the following:
Home State of outing pupils, Feb. 11, 1911.
New York 65 I Arizona 4
New Mexico 15
Michigan 15
Oklahoma 12
South Dakota 12
Wisconsin 11
Massachusetts 4
Montana 3
California 4
Idaho 2
Maine 2
North Dakota 10 | Oregon 1
New Jersey 1
Minnesota 1
Utah 1
Alaska 1
Kansas 1
North Carolina 10
Washington 9
Louisiana 6
Nebraska 6
Wyoming 6
From the foregoing it will be seen that the country from Maine to California and
from Alaska to Louisiana is represented.
It is also to be noted that the State of New York furnishes 65, MichiganlS, Louisiana
6, Massachusetts 4, Maine 2. and New Jersey 1, or nearly one-half of these outing pupils,
who are supposed to be placed out in order to be surrounded by civilizing influence,
and it seems to me to be rather of a severe comment on these States to have it reported
that their children are sent to the State of Pennsylvania to be civilized. I am of the
opinion that while the outing system is getting excellent results, it is not being handled
BO as to reach the children of the so-called "Indian country," whose homes are not in
cities and towns or to be reached from the trolley cars therefrom. It would seem as
if this matter should receive careful consideration, and that pupils from the far West
or "Indian country" be given the advantages of the outing system, and that those
enrolled from eastern cities and towns, or from eastern reservations, located in the heart
of civilized communities, be kept at the school to carry on the work of the institution.
Samples of correspondence with patrons as to pupils, monthly report and rules for out-
ing system are herewith inclosed for your examination.
Respectfully submitted.
Chas. F. Peirce,
Supervisor of Indian Schools.
Department of the Interior,
Office op Indian Affairs,
Washington, March 27, 1911 .
Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. C.
Sir: I respectfully call attention to certain portions of a report on the Carlisle Indian
School recently submitted by Supervisor Charles F. Pierce.
Under section 3, student body, the supervdsor lists 81 pupils who were carried on
the rolls at Carlisle for periods varj'ing from a few days up to almost three years after
their departure from the school, making a total attendance of 22,071 days, during
which time pupils, although carried on the rolls, were not in actual attendance. I
call attention to this matter because it seems to me of very great importance that all
1072 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
schools follow the same rule with reference to the dropping of pupils fro 1
either when they go on leave or when they desert from the school. A circular giving
instructions on this particular point was recently sent out from the office, and I trust
that in the future the quarterly attendance reports which are sent to the office may
be more carefully studied than they have been in the past, in order that the instruc-
tions issued in the late circular may be in fact carried into effect. The quarterly
school attendance reports ~.ive a great deal of information which has not been care-
fully examined and used, and it seems to me that it should be made the duty of
some particular persan to e.Kamine the quarterly school attendance reports with very
great care.
The supervisor also calls attention to the enrollment at Carlisle of a great many stu-
dents whose ho'ues are in communities where there are good public schools; for
instance, from tha State of XevV York, 214; Massachusetts, 17; Maine, 3; New Jer-
sey, 3; Louisiana, 17; Virginia, 1; and Michigan, a large number. The fact that
there are so many pupils enrolled at this particular school who could attend public
schools is certainly not in har;nony with the effort that is being made to eliminate
such children from the Indian schools and to enroll them in public schools. I feel
very certain that there is no need whatever of the Government expending any money
in educating Indian children from the State of Ne.v York.
In this connection I desire to call attention to a special report submitted by Super-
visor Pierce on school facilities for Indians in the State of New York, dated March
14, 1911. At ray suggestion Supervisor Pierce went to New York and spent several
days visiting and inspecting the State schools for the Indians, and his report cer-
tainly indicates that the State of New York is providing very liberally for the educa-
tion of its Indians.
I recently Adsited the little band of Chittimatchie Indians of Louisiana, from which
tribe 17 children are enrolled at Carlisle. I found that they all lived within easy
reach of public schools. However, there is considerable opposition to their enroll-
ment in such schools. The smaller cnildren are attending a day school conducted
by the Catholic sisters, and are therefore quite well provided for. It is probablyjus-
ti'fiable to enroll a few of the older children of the tribe at Carlisle, in order that they
may have industrial training, but there should not be any of the younger children
enrolled in any Indian school.
An examination of the list of pupils enrolled at Carlisle, whose homes are within
reasonable distances of the public schools, will show that there are a great many children
who live in \dllages and towns in the various sections of the country. I am of the
opinion that one-third of the pupils enrolled at Carlisle could have public-school
opportunities equal to those of their white neighbors if they were debarred from
enrollment in Indian schools.
I desire to call attention also to the fact that the ages of pupils given in the quar-
terly school-attendance report for the Carlisle School are, in a great majority of
of instances, incorrect. It seems that the custom of giving the age at the time of enroll-
ment at Carlisle has been followed, and that those ages have not been changed at all
on the quarterly attendance report. Lender these circumstances, there are pupils
at Carlisle who, having been there five, six, seven, or eight years, are that much
older than shown on the attendance report. This matter certainly should be cor-
rected at once.
In section 5 of the report the supervisor calls attention to the fact that the pupils*
records are not being kept at Carlisle in accordance with instructions sent out last year.
The method now in use is such as to make it very difficult to get full information
concerning any one student in the school, and I strongly indorse the recommendation
of the super\T.sor that the Carlisle pupils' records should be kept in the same manner
as they are in other schools.
Respectfully,
H. B. Peairs, Supervisor.
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, Mr. Peairs asked me to substantiate some
of tliose facts. I gave an affidavit as to what I knew about the
reports. Of course, it was given confidentially, but as soon as it
was brought up I showed tlie whole corres])ondence and affidavit to
Mr. Friedman to let him know I was doing nothing underhanded.
Representative Stephens. Wlien was this report made?
Mr. Whitwell. This report must have been made, I think it was
in 1911; about February, 1911, if I remember.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1073
No.v, when Mr. Friedman found that these things had been said
in regard to keeping the report he went into my office. I should
say that before that Mr. Meyer told me that he had given Mr. Fried-
man an affidavit against Mr. Peairs and I told him that I was some-
what surprised when I saw the affidavit. Well, he said that if Mr. Fried-
man went away from here he was not sure that he would be wanted
around. He made some such remark as that, and I took it to mean
that it might be well for me to watch out. I went in to see Mr. Fried-
man, and I asked him, "You remember the time when Supervisor
Conser visited Haskell and found seven names on the report there
that should not have been there?" He said yes, and he said, "1
want you to give an affidavit to that effect." I said I would be glad
to do it. I said, ''You write me what you want and I will be
glad to do it." Then he says, "You remember that Mr. Conser
told Mr, Peairs how to keep those reports in the future?" I says
"Yes," and he told me — well, he says, "You remember 3'ou went
on keeping them just the same as you did before?" I said, "No,
sir; Mr. Friedman, you are mistaken. T ke])t the reports, and I know
that from that day on, from the time that Mr. Conser visited Haskell,
those reports were kept strictly to the letter," and I said, "the
records will prove it." "No," he said, "you know that is not so."
I said, "I know it is so; and if that is what you want me to do, you
have got the wrong man. I will neither lie for you nor anyone
else." We had some words about it, and the trouble started right
away. He said that Mr. Warner and that Mr. Meyer Jiad both
given an affidaA^t worth having. In the meantmie I had prepared
my affidavit.
Representative Stephens. When did that occur ?
Mr. Whitwell. That occurred at the time he was running for
commissioner.
Representative Stephens. Last fall some time ?
Mr. Whitwell. Last fall, I think.
The Chairman. Wliat is the general state of discipline in the
school, Mr. Whitwell ?
Mr. Whitwell. It is very poor.
The Chairman. Is it improving or growing worse ?
Mr. Whitwell. It is growing worse.
The Chairman. To what, in your opinion, is it due?
Mr. Whitwell. First of all, disrespect to the superintendent.
The Chairman. Is that general among the pupils ?
Mr. Whitwell. Very general.
The Chairman. Does the same condition prevail among the
employees ?
Mr. Whitwell. It does; perhaps not to as great an extent, but
still it is very manifest.
The Chairman. Have you seen or heard manifestations of dis-
respect or discourtesy from the pupils toward the superintendent?
Mr. Whitwell. I have heard of it.
The Chairman. But you have not heard or seen it yourself?
Mr. Whitwell. The only thing I have seen is, the last entertain-
ment we had, when he was speaking to them, trying to get their ap-
plause, they showed a determination not to give it; not a single
clap, for instance, to things that under other circumstances would
35601— PT 11—14 8
1074 OAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
have brought forth applause — talking about appropriations for the
school, and other things. And, of course, I saw that writing on the
blackboard, which I tried to rectify. That was years ago, as much
as four years.
The Chairman. Were there frequent complaints of injustice on
the part of the superintendent toward the pupils ?
Mr. Whitwell. Very frequentlj^.
The Chairman. Do you know anything about the character and
quantity of food served ?
Mr. Whitwell. Well, the children complained a good deal. Of
course, I have no duties in the dining room, so I never go.
The Chairman. The complaint is quite general?
Mr. Whitwell. The complaint is general.
The Chairman. Wliat interest does the superintendent display in
the schoolroom work?
Mr. Whitwell. Practically none until my trouble commenced
with him, and then he commenced to write me letters as to what
should be done, and I would hke to leave the letters with you.
The Chairman. Have you got them here?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; it will take considerable time to go
over them, but it will show that among the charges he made was
that I had neglected my duty, and until he undertook to reorganize
my work it had been constantly going down. As I have already
explained, it had been going down during the time I was working as
clerk. Then he started to write letters to show that he was takijig
taking care of it. He came through the school rooms, but he would
do more harm than good. If he found quite a number of pupils in ,
one room, he would say, "Wliy don't you promote some of them?"
and the teacher would say, "They are not ready to be promoted."
We must have the proof that they are ready for it, and if they are
demoted we must know that they are not able to go on. Otherwise it
spoils the disciphne of the school. Then he said, "Demote some of
them." That is his idea of running the school. If a room is a httle
crowded, he will let it stay crowded rather than provide more room.
The Chairman. Under date of April 14 this appears to be a copy
of a letter from the superintendent to you calling for two separate
reports relative to the enrolhiient and the attendance at Carlisle.
Mr. Whitewell. Yes; that is the affidavit that he wished me to
give in regard to that very thing.
The Chairman. This appears to be a copy of your reply to that
letter and the reports which you made.
Mr. Whitewell. Yes, sir; that is the re])ly which he told me was
not worth anything; that Mr. Miller and Mr. W^arner had given him
an affidavit that was.
The Chairman. That wiU be inserted in the record.
(The correspondence referred to is as follows:)
Carlisle, Pa., April 14, 1913.
Mr. J. W. Whitwell, PnncipaZ Teacher,
Carlisle, Pa.
Dear Sir: The question of enrollment and attendance at Carlisle has been raised,
and I would be pleased to have you make two separate reports to me, giving me the
exact facts with reference thereto, in accordance with your knowledge.
first. A statement covering your experience at Haskell in making out the quar-
terly reports, how they were made there, and Superintendent Peairs's connection
CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1075
with the making of them, whether or no deserters and students on leave were carried,
and whether this was done under the specific instruction of Mr. Peairs or not.
Second. An affidavit stating at which time the making of the enrollment and
attendance reports of the Carlisle Indian School was first placed in your hands, and
whether or no they were ever taken out of your hands at any time from that time ta
the present. In this connection it will be well for you to state who sent you a copy
of the quarterly reports for a period previous to the time when you took them over^
by whom they were made up, and just why I told you it was unnecessary for you to
sign the reports as requested by the clerk. Will you please say specifically whether
I have at any time since you first began making the reports ever in any way interfered
with your making them? Please also say whether or no you have clo.'sely followed
the regulations and the facts in making out these reports.
Very respectfully,
M. Friedman, Superintendent^
United States Indian School,
Carlisle, Pa., April 15, 191S.
Supt. Friedman,
Carlisle, Pa.
Dear Sir: In reply to your letter of the 14th instant, stating that the question of
enrollment and attendance at Carlisle has been raised and that j'ou would be pleased
to have me make two separate reports to you, giving you the exact facts with reference
thereto, in accordance with my knowledge —
First. A statement covering my experience at Haskell in making out the quarterly
reports, how they were made there, and Supt. Peairs's connection with the making of
them, whether or no deserters and students in leave were carried, and whether this was-
done under the specific instruction of Mr. Peairs or not.
Second. An affidaAdt stating at which time the making of the enrollment and;
attendance reports of the Carlisle Indian School was first placed in my hands, and
whether or no they were ever taken out of my hands, at any time, from that time to
the present; that in this connection it will be well for me to state who sent me a copy
of the quarterly reports previous to the time when I took them over, by whom they
were made up, and just why you told me it was unnecessary for me to sign the reports
as requested by the clerk; also, to say specifically whether you have, at any time,
since I first began making the reports, ever in any way, interfered with my making them
and to say whether or no I have closely followed the regulations and the facts in making
out these reports — I submit the following as the facts in each case.
Very respectfully,
John Whitwell,
Principal Teacher.
United States Indian School,
Carlisle, Pa., April 15, 1913.
"To Supt. Friedman: Reports with reference to correspondence of April 14, 1913."
First. I kept the attendance reports during the four years I was employed as prin-
cipal teacher at Haskell Institute, under H. B. Peairs, superintendent. As this time
was my first experience in a nonreeervation school, I simply followed the instructions
of the superintendent until such time as I had positive instructions from higher
authority. At the end of each quarter a list of names of students no longer present
was sent to Superintendent Peairs. He indicated those to be dropped by placing
the letter D after their names. Some were not dropped, and when Supervisor Conser
called my attention to this, I showed him the lists of names as submitted to Superin-
tendent Peairs at the end of each quarter, and also showed him that I had complied
Btrictlj' with Superintendent Peairs's instructions as to who should be dropped.
Supervisor Conser then gave specific instructions as to how the report should be kept,
60 that during the remainder of my stay at Haskell I kept the reports strictly in
accordance ^\^th these instructions.
As I have already indicated, while acting under the superintendent's instructions,
several students, some of whom were deserters, were carried on the rolls as present
several months after they had left the Institute.
Very respectfully,
John Whitwell,
Principal Teacher^
1076 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
[To Supt. Friedman: Second report with reference to correspondence of April 14, 1913.]
United States Indian School,
Carlisle, Pa., April 15, 191S.
To Supt. Friedman: Reports with reference to correspondeiice of April 14, 1913. "
Second. In regard to your request for affidavit relating to my experience with at-
tendance reports at Carlisle, I find much of the information called for is already given
in affidavit furnished by me to Supervisor Peairs in compliance -ftith his request of
March 19 on this same subject.
To make this affidavit clearer and to give the extra information required, I will call
attention to the fact as then stated; that it was on July 26, 1911, that the enroll-
ment and attendance reports at Carlisle were first placed in my hands and that I have
made or supervised the making of all reports since that time. I m\\ add, that while
circumstances have made ttiis a very trying duty, I have no charges to make as to
interferences on your part, and the reports have been made strictlj- in line with the
regulations.
As to who sent me a copy of the quarterly reports for a period previous to the time
when I took them over, by whom they were made up, and just why you told me it was
unnecessary for me to sign the reports as requested by the clerk, the fact as already
stated in my affidavit to Supervisor Peairs that, 'It was sometime in 1910 before I
even saw one of these reports, that they were sent to me for signature, without any
explanation, and that at that time I knew absolutely nothing as to how they were
made up, ' makes it impossible for me to give a conclusive answer further than to add
that I knew the reports were being made where they had always been made, viz.,
in the office of the financial clerk, and that Miss Reichel, an assistant in this office,
brought the reports to me.
Very respectfully,
John Whitwell,
Frincipal Teacher.
Representative Stephens. How many names did they pad the
rolls -v^dth ?
Mr. Whitwell. About 200, as well as I can remember.
The Chairman. There is a statement in the affidavit. I find here
among the letters you have submitted what purports to bo a copy
of a letter from Supt. Friedman to you as principal teacher, October
14, 1913, referring to charges against you for an abusive and insub-
ordinate attack upon Supt. Friedman on the afternoon of October
7 in his office, by calling him a " du'ty skunk. " Was that the occasion
you told about ?
]Mr. Whitwell. No, sir; this was after that. That was between
both of us. There was a want of cordiality at least between us up to
the time this happened, and he was doing everything from that time
on to make me work hard and discount what I was domg. You will
be able to tell from the letters what provocation led up to that.
The Chairman. Did you reply to that letter?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Under date of October 15, the following day, you
wrote the Commissioner of Indian Affau's what appears to be a
communication mclosmg
Mr. Whitv/ell (interrupting). I would like to say there that I
first of all wi'ote to the Supervisor of Indian Schools. I realized
that I had done somethmg I should not have done, and I wrote a full
explanation admittmg what I had done and telling iiim what liad led
up to it, and I expected and requested him to place it b(^fo]-e the com-
missioner. But that was not done, and nothing was done about it
until the superintendent filed his charges. Then I sent both my let-
ters to Supervisor Peairs and another one to the Commissioner in
regard to the charges. They were both filed at the same time.
The Chairman. What is the copy that I hand joii ?
CARLISLE INDLVN SCHOOL. 1077
Mr. Whitwell. This is a copy of the reply to the charges men-
tioned; also the letter of Supervisor Peairs, which I wish to inclose
with the others.
(The letters, etc., referred to are as follows:)
Indian School,
Carlisle, Pa., October U, 191S.
Mr. Joan Whitwell, Principal Teacher:
lu a letter to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs you are charged with making an
unwarranted, abusive, and insubordinate attack on the superintendent on the after-
noon of October 7 in his office and calling him "a dirty skunk."
It also charged that your work has not been satisfactory or up to the standard; that
you have beeri derelict in your duty; that you have not visited the classrooms, as you
should, and given instruction to the students or properly observed the work of 'the
teachers; and that, until I undertook to reorganize your work during the past summer,
it was constantly growing worse instead of better.
You will be given three days to prepare such statement and give answer in such way
to the charges above mentioned as you desire.
Very respectfully,
M. Friedman,
Superintendent.
Indian School,
Carlisle, Pa., October 15, 1913.
Commissioner op Indian Affairs,
Washington, D, C.
Dear Sir: Doubting the legality of the form of the charges as presented to me by
Supt. Friedman and knowing from experience his ability to distort the truth, I am
sending under separate cover this copy of letter sent through the superintendent, with
the superintendent's letters pre\T.ously mentioned; also a copy of the Arrow of Septem-
ber 5, 1913, the sample outlines mentioned, and copies of letters ^vritten by Mr. Stauffer
and Mrs. Lovewell, as well as the program and songs in question.
Very respectfully,
John Whitwell,
Principal Teacher.
Indian Schooi,
Carlisle, Pfi., October 15, 1913.
Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
Washington, D, C.
Dear Sir: Please find inclosed a letter from Supt. Friedman which (unless the
regulations have been changed) seems to me a new procedure in such cases. How-
ever, as there is nothing in the letter which can not be explained, and as delay would
be detrimental to the best interest of all concerned, I proceed with the explanations:
I. I am charged with having made an unwarranted, abusive, and insubordinate
attack on the superintendent on the afternoon of October 7 in his oflice, and calling
him "a dirty skunk."
Answer. I respectfully submit the inclosed letter addressed to the supervisor of
Indian schools, as e^ddence in this matter, also the additional evidence beariag on
the matter which is here given in my answers to the other charges.
II. "It is also charged that your work has not been satisfactory or up to the
standard."
Answer. The charge should have stated which one of these is meant, or if all are
meant, viz:
(a) My regular work as principal teacher.
(6) My work in the financial clerk's office, of keeping the students' record cards.
(c) The different details to which I have been assigned.
Because of their far-reaching effect I will take up the second and third of these
first:
(b) WTien Supt. Friedman instructed me in July, 1911, to do the work in the finan-
cial clerk's office, formerly done by a separate clerk, viz, that of keeping the students'
record cards and attendance reports — I protested but said I could do this if allowed
to have the cards and books at my office. After consultation with the clerks the
superintendent decided the cards and attendance book could not be moved from the
1078 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
financial clerk's office. This meant that from that time on at least one-half of my time
had to be spent in the financial clerk's office away from my regular work.
The affidavit which I gave to Supervisor Peairs regarding attendance reports at
Carlisle, and which I showed to Snpt. Friedman, contained another protest as to the
trying circumstances under which I was making these reports and keeping these
record cards.
On July 28, 1913, I received instructions to "transfer at once the attendance books
and all other papers needed in connection with the work to my office" and keep
the attendance reports there.
I went to the superintendent's office and showed him that the Carlisle system of
keeping attendance reports made the cards, attendance book, and reports inseparable,
but suggested, since he had consented for me to take the book, we might get another
set of cards, make duplicates. The superintendent agreed to this, and as soon as
the cards reached me I called in two teachers and the librarian and we had them
ready for use in a few days.
Since that time, which was at the beginning of the school year, I have kept the attend-
ance records in my own office, consequently I have been able to again attend to
miy school duties as I used to do before the change was made in July, 1911. I wish to
emphasize the fact that previous to July, 1911, the principal teacher had had notliing
whatever to do with the keeping of the record cards, the attendance book, or the
attendance reports. It was t' e circumstances under which I had to do this work
rather than the work itself that I objected to — the reasons are self-evident.
(c) As to the different details to which I have been assigned I wish to refer to the
following:
1. Before my leave had expired in 1909, the superintendent called me by telegram
irom Jackson, Mich., to take the place of the quartermaster, when an employee on
the grounds fully acquainted with the work was available and wilUng to fill the posi-
tion.
I had had no experience whatever in the position, but was required to fill it even
after school started. I simply did all that any one could have done under the cir-
cumstances.
In September, 1912, just as I was getting my school into shape and without any
previous intimation, I was given written order to be ready within a few hours to pro-
ceed to Pine Ridge and Rosebud Reservations to escort pupils to this school, a work
which any one of the 60 employees here could have done, as the pupils were gotten
ready by the day-school inspectors on each reservation.
On July 28 this year (see superintendent's letter of this date) I was detailed to large
boys' quarters. I had just given up part of my educational leave to get back to my
school work.
(a) But more than this; my regular work at the school building has been seriously
liindered. ,
1. By abolishing teachers' positions and reducing salaries; e. g., that of senior
teacher, salary, |900; assistant normal teacher's position aboUshed; teacher of room
No. 3, position abolished; agricultural teacher, salary first reduced, afterward position
aboUshed.
2. By pushing the teaching of telegraph and art at the expense of the school. One of
the regular school rooms had to be given up for telegraphy when another room was
available. This meant an average class of 50 pupils were forced to use a less desirable
Toom.
The room previously used for supplies and as the office of head janitor was fitted up
ior art without any regard for the supjjlies or the janitor work. •
Without even notifying me teachers have been detailed to all kinds of work (except
School work) during t^ e summer months, and sometimes during the school session,
and even after I had made arrangements for having some necessary school work done
before teachers went on their vacation the arrangements were ignored, the teachers'
r-egular requests for leave were ignored and teachers were ordered to take their leave
at once.
The instruction in gardening has been changed so that practically all it amounts
Ito now is detailing boys and sometimes girls to do the work — the gardener makes a
fine showing, but the instruction part has to be neglected. The Arrow of September
5 says the garden has afforded excellect instruction. This is misleading to say the
least. No doubt it is a good object lesson, but the instruction has been very meager.
The musical director who has charge of teaching vocal music classes in school has
received more recognition, both financially and otherwise, than any other teacher;
yet despite the fact that he makes an excellent showing at commencement and other
public occasions, his work with the classes is hardly worth mentioning, which can
not be otherwise in the face of his many other duties; and what means more, some of
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1079
his work is direct opposition to the kind of training which we all agree is of more
value than aiiy other — moral training. I inclose copy of a letter written me by Mr.
Stauffer regarding Mrs. Lovewell, and another copy of Mrs. Lovewell's reply to thia
letter, together with a copy of the program then under question; also a copy of a song
given at a literary meeting.
When the superintendent has left the grounds, even if it was for weeks, he has
neglected to give the required official notice as to who was in charge. Being the
next in order I did the best I could under the circumstances until I saw plainly he
did not want me to take charge.
My best efforts and the work of many others is devoted for three months during
each year toward making what in many ways is a false showing for commencement.
III. "That you have been derelict in your duty." As some of the alleged dere-
lictions follow I will simply say here that I have been true to my highest convic-
tions, and when a question of duty presented itself I have, as already shown, tried
to stand for right whatever the cost. Judging from what I have already said it would
seem I would have been derelict in my duty if I had stood for all that Supt. Friedman
has stood for.
Then again, the unnatural details forced on me by the superintendent plainly pre-
vented my doing my full duty to my own department.
IV. "That you have not visited the classrooms, as you should, and given instruc-
tion to the students or properly observed the work of the teachers." Visiting class-
rooms: Up to the time of my detail to the financial clerk's office in July, 1911, I
found time to visit the classrooms as often as was necessary. Since then and until
recently I have found it extremely difficult to find time even to visit the rooms of
new teachers. The latter I have made a point to visit whenever possible.
The superintendent evidently forgets or does not know that each teacher prepares
a daily program (I inclose samples); that these are sent to the principal teachers'
office, and that the work as a whole can be much better supervised in this way than
by trying to visit 17 different rooms with the same object in view. As to instructing
the pupils, the work of the principal teacher here has never included teaching in the
classrooms.
His work is to organize and observe the work of other teachers, wliich I have care-
fully done. There never was a time when I could not give a detailed report as to the
efficiency of any one of my teachers. The fact that the superintendent did not call
for such reports did not prevent my being in a position to give them at any time.
Going back to the charge of not visiting school rooms, I have not done as the superin-
tendent did last night — after sending me the charges at noon he personally inter-
viewed the teachers as to their correctness on this point.
V. "Until I undertook to reorganize your work during the past summer it was con-
stantly growing worse instead of better."
During this time I have but once received oral instructions from Supt. Friedman.
He was passing by my office and I asked him what was to be done with the Bible
classes. After saying he intended to have a secretary to look after them as usual,
he said, "Just saw wood."
As to written instructions, I am forwarding under separate cover all the written
instructions I have received from the superintendent during this period. The super-
intendent has a copy of them. To the man who knows they speak for themselves.
If this claim to organization of my work is based on what Mr. Stauffer did, as would
appear from an inspired article in the Arrow with the heading "School building made
ready," I wish to repeat what I have already said in regard to Mr. Stauffer's work in
my office, viz, that he did more harm than good. I might have added that during my
absence of six weeks he did not even start the work which the superintendent had
ordered done before I left, viz, oiling the floors, although the quartermaster says he
told him the oil was ready.
From another inspired article in the Arrow of the same date I judge Mr. Stauffer's
work on the calendar may be meant.
I wish to state that the calendar manuscript practically completed on lines sug-
gested and approved at faculty meetings at which I was present, was left by me before
going on vacation in the hands of the printer. In fact, when the superintendent told
me to leave my keys with Mr. Stauffer, I suggested leaving the calendar too, but he
said no, to hand it to Mr. Brown, the printer, so that the latter could begin work on it,
and I did so. True, several changes were made, but aside from that of study hour
which at faculty meeting I had objected to, purely on the grounds that I understood
the Indian Office was not in favor of it; aside from this, I repeat, the changes were
immaterial so far as construction and organization are concerned.
It remains to be seen whether or not the change in religious services will prove
beneficial.
John Whitwell.
1080 CARLISLE INDIAN" SCHOOL.
The Chairman. I see what purports to be a copy of a letter fi-om
the superintendent to you, dated July 23, 1913, relative to personal
oversight of instruction in the class rooms.
Mr. Whitwell. This was written in July, while I was on my vaca-
tion, and I had not then removed the attendance records to my office,
so that the overseeing of the classrooms had been somewhat neg-
lected, owing to my being at the other office.
(The letter referred to is as follows:)
July 23, 1913.
Mr. Whitwell:
One of tlie paramount duties devolving on the principal teacher in connection with
his work is the personal oversight of instruction in the classrooms. It is therefore
directed that as much time as possible be spent by the principal teacher each day in
visiting classrooms, so as to definitely ascertain the progress which is made by the
students, and listening to the recitation work conducted by the teacher with a view to
raising the standard of the academic department. From time to time the principal
teacher himself should take a class and quiz the students with a view to ascertaining
the practical results which have attended the instruction by the various teachers.
Important matters needing adjustment will thus come before the personal attention
of the principal teacher which can be discussed and properly corrected either in a
personal interview ■nnth the teacher or at one of the teachers' meetings. The matt<3r
18 one of the greatest importance, and as very little or no visiting of this kind has been
done in the past, the matter should have definite attention.
Very respectfully,
M. Friedman, Superintendent.
The Chairman. July 28, 1913, you were detailed to the large boys'
quarters ?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir.
(The letter referred to is as follows :)
July 28, 1913.
Mr. Whitwell:
You are hereby detailed for duty at the large boys' quarters, beginning at once.
Very respectfully,
M. Friedman, Superintendent.
The Chairman. What was the import of that ?
Mr. Whitwell. I had been attending chautauqua, but the teacher
who had been keeping the attendance records was away and I knew
what it meant, and I gave up a part of my institute leave to hurry
back to my own work, and I had not been back but a day or so when
he detailed me to the large boys' quarters, although there were very
few boys here at that time and no special need for it.
The Chairman. There also appears to be a letter of January 28,
1913, from Supt. Friedman to you. What is the significance of that
communication to you?
Mr. Whitwell. This is in regard to the change of keeping the
attendance records at my own office instead of in the financial clerk's
office, and he seems to be specially desirous of having them kept
accurately, and I challenged him to show where they had ever been
kept, since I took them, any other way than accurately. Of course,
it IS all a matter of evidence as to the way they were kept before I
took hold of it. I thought I had the answers to these with me.
The Chairman. Were you charged with the condition of the class-
rooms ?
Mr. Whitwell. You mean in regard to janitor work, etc. ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; that is part of my duties.
CABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1081
The Chairman. I see a letter of August 26, 1913, in which the super-
intendent criticises you for the condition of the rooms.
Mr. Whitwell. There is akeady on record a reply to this, showing
that the only windows that were not cleaned at that time were two
in the back part of the chapel, and as the teacher said he was doing
the work, there was no need of doing them then; we could do them
when we had boys to help us. And not only that, there was more
important work for the teacher to do than cleaning such windows.
We ought to have been getting our school work in shape. The other
windows were just in the shape you would expect to find them after
the summer's vacation. They had all been cleaned before the pupils
had been dismissed. There is a reply here to this about the windows.
It is, of course, written much better than I could remember now.
(The letter and statement referred to are as follows:)
August 26, 1913.
Mr. Whitwell:
I have gone through the rooms of the school building carefully and, while the oiling
of the floors and the general cleaning is progressing satisfactorily, it will be necessary
to spend quite a bit of time and labor in cleaning the windows. The windows gen-
erally were dirty, a condition which ia not only unsanitary but obstructs the proper
light and sunshine which should enter the schoolrooms during class recitations.
Very respectfully,
Moses Friedman,
Superintendent.
[Notes on Superintendent's letter of Aug. 26, 1913.]
The front windows of the chapel had been washed a few days before this inspection
was made. The windows the superintendent saw the boys washing before he wrote
this letter, were put in new a few days before. They were gummy and needed wash-
ing; the other windows of school rooms were in the condition anyone would expect
to find them in, after the dusts of the summer vacation.
The windows in the storeroom at the rear of the chapel did need cleaning, but it was
not necessary that they be done then, when there were not pupils that could do this,
only teachers who could have had tliis time for better use.
The Chairman. That was not a letter to the superintendent. This
is a correct statement ?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; that is in regard to the actual conditions.
And I would like to say that there are answers put in the evidence.
The Chairman. Were they furnished to the superintendent ?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes; they were furnished as a reply to his charges^
so that they are a matter of record in Washington.
The Chairman. Do you know why Miss Gaither was transferred
from here ?
Mr. Whitwell. She and Mr. Friedman did not get along very
well together. I know no other reason why she should have been
transferred. I considered her a very capable matron.
The Chairman. At the time of her leavmg here did you know any-
thing about a controversy arising from the manner of keeping the
accounts ?
Mr. Whitwell. No, sir; I never heard that.
The Chairman. Do you know Julia Hardin ?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Who is she ?
Mr. Whitwell. She is one of our pupils in the busmess department.
The Chairman. Did you see her during June, 1913 ? On an oc-
casion when she was bemg whipped ?
1082 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. State the circumstances under which you saw
her, and what her condition was.
Mr. Whitw^ell. Shall I read this ?
The Chairman. I have no objection.
Mr. Whitwell. Of course, I would like to say that this was given
from my memory, but I know that the vital parts are correct. There
may be a word or two that is a little different.
The Chairman. Just read it.
Mr. Whitwell (reading) :
I found tlie girl sitting on the floor sobbing and crying. Mr. Stanffer was standing
near, very much excited. So was Miss Ridenour. I had learned on the way over,
from Mrs. La Flesche, something of the trouble. I walked up to Julia and said some-
thing like this: "Julia, you know I wouldn't advise you to do anything against your
best interests if I knew it. Now, you have got yourself into this trouble and it is up to
you to get yourself out of it. I couldn't tell you what is right or wrong, any better than
what you yourself now know it, and I am not going to waste time talking to you,
but I advise you to do as you are told, whatever that is."
I turned to the matron and asked what they wanted her to do. The matron said
she would have to go to the lock-up. I said, "Julia, will you go to the lock-up?"
She said, "I will go for you, Mr. Whitwell." I knew the girl meant what she said.
I turned to the matron and said she was ready to go, but the matron did not seem to
realize it. I said again that she was ready to go and told Julia to rise and go with her.
She went and that ended my connection with the case.
The Chairman. Did you see Mr. Stauffer that evening?
!Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; he came to the house.
The Chairman. What conversation occurred between you ?
Mr. Whitwell. He evidently came to explain his coimection with
the case. He said that the girl has been very bad, or something like
that, and I said to him, ' ' Well, I am afraid you have made a mistake
to use corporal punishment. You ought to have had permission of
the superintendent." He said that he had gone to Mr. Friedman
after he found out the girl would not do what they wanted, and told
IVIr. Friedman that there was only one way to do it and that was to
spank her, and jVIt. Friedman said, ''Now, don't talk to me about
spanking. If you are going to spank, all right; but don't bring me
into it."
I had very little to say about the case, and could not approve of it.
He evidently was worried about it, and I could not say anything that
would make him feel any better. He added, however, that the girl
was ready to go when he came over, and I told him that so far as
that was concerned, I did not claim any credit.
The Chairman. Did you take hold of the girl ?
Mr. Whitwell. I do not remember even touching her.
The Chairman. Did you pull her up from the floor ?
Mr, Whitwell. I do not remember that I pulled her up. If I
did it was simply to help her. From what Mrs. La Flesche told me,
I realized it was a case that the more they were punishing the girl
the more stubborn she was becoming. I would not use corporal
punishment under any circumstances.
The Chairman. Did you threaten to punish her?
Mr. Whitwell. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you tell her that she had not had enough
punishment ?
Mr. Whitwell. No, sir.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1083
The Chairman. Did you order her put in the detention room over
night?
Mr. Whitwell. No, sir. I did not know anything about whether
they had a detention room. I did not know the next move. The
girl went home. I was ignorant of the whole situation.
The Chairman. Do you know what she was punished for?
Air. Whitwell. I know now, yes.
The Chairman. What was it ?
Mr. Whitwell. For not going to the country after she had prom-
ised to go.
The Chairman. Did you see the board %\dth which she is said to
have been whipped ?
]Mi-. Whitwell. No, sir. That was all over when I went there.
The Chairman. Do you know of pupils of the school being con-
fined in the county jail, ^Ir. Whitwell ?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How many have you known of in the last year
or two ?
Mr. Whitwell. Something Uke seven or eight.
The Chairman. For what offenses, if you kiiow ?
Mr. Whitwell. One while I was helping over at the large boys'
quarters — I assisted them. In fact, under Mr. Friedman's orders, I
took a boy down and had him arrested. I went down and really
acted the part of the complainant.
The Chairman. What did you charge him with ?
Mr. Whitwell. Steahng pies out of the bakery. They make pies
every Saturday afternoon.
T&e Chairman. How long was he confined for that?
Mr. Whitwell. 1 think for 30 dajrs, as near as I can remember.
The Chairman. Did you charge him with petty larceny or grand
larceny ?
Mr. Whitwell. I tliink it was pett}^ larceny.
The Chairman. Did you think that punishment as commensu-
rate "^^dth the degree of the offense — to take a schoolboy charged
with steahng something to eat ? It looks to me almost like the case
of Jean Valjean again. A case where you knew, and it was generally
known, that the pupils were not getting enough to eat, to take one of
the boys down and put him in jail for 30 days.
Mr. Whitwell. Of course, they threw the plates away, but that
was all secondary.
The Chairman. How much pie did they steal ?
Mr. Whitwell. Oh, quite a number of them.
The Chairman. Were there a number of boys in it ?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes; they took the pies down near the lake here
and told the boys where the pies were. I think the poor girls had to
go without the next day.
Representative Carter. You have been to a boarding school,
haven't you ?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; I have been in aU kinds.
Representative Carter. Did you ever take part in any such
transaction as that?
Mr. Whitwell. No, sir.
Representative Carter. Never stole a pie ?
1084 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, those offenses are quite com-
mon in all boarding schools ?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Especially where the food is inadequate or un-
wholesome and general complaints exist. Don't you think that a
case of that sort could have been handled and should have been
handled with the discipline that prevails in the school rather than
appeal to the criminal authorities of the county?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; there were those two things I thought of
at the time; that it showed our weak disciphne in the first place, in
not being able to handle a thing like that ourselves; and again, that
our grounds were not being policed right. The judge himself asked
why the boys could do that.
Representative Carter. Do you have a night watch?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, but only an Indian boy. For all I know, he
might have helped.
Representative Carter. You were acting under orders, I believe,
of the superintendent?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; the superintendent gave me orders.
Representative Carter. Were the orders written, or merely
verbal ?
Mr. Whitwell. I do not remember.
Representative Carter. Will you look and see if you have any
written instructions concerning that, and bring them back ?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. Why was this work put on you?
Mr. Whitwell. You will notice that at that time I was detailed
to the large boys' quarters.
Representative Carter. Was the counsel or advice of the dis-
ciplinarian sought or obtained in the matter — what was that boy's
name?
Mr. Whitwell. I could find out.
Representative Carter. Did you visit the boy while he was in
jail?
Mr. Whitwell. No.
Representative Carter. Did Superintendent Friedman?
Mr. Whitwell. I do not think he did; I do not think anyone did.
I know I told the prosecuting attorney — he said there was a nominal
fine, as I understood. There had to be a nominal fine, and I told liim
that probably the boy would not have it, and if he would let me know
I would pay it. Then I inquired when the time was out of the disci-
plinarian, and he said they were going to let the boy go home.
Representative Carter. So they kept him in jail 30 days and then
fired him for stealing pies?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. What do they do with the drunks and
the boys who enter the rooms of the girls and debauch them?
Mr. Whitwell. I have heard mentioned the case of Gus Welch.
Representative Carter. He is a football man?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. Do you know about the four boys who
during the last year entered the girls' building and met some girls in
a vacant room, and stayed there a long time?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1085
Representative Carter. What was done with those boys?
Mr. Whitwell. They were put in the guardhouse.
Representative Carter. They were not taken to the county jail
and confined for debauching tliose girls?
Mr. Whitwell. No, sir. Those boys evidently had not been pun-
ished as they ought to have been. Just day before yesterday one of
them met a girl over at the school building — one of the same boys
met one of the same girls in the back part of the chapel. There was
nothing done bad that we know of, but it was because we caught on
to it in time.
^■The Chairman. Of course, the inherent weaknesses and character-
istics of human nature make it impossible to prevent those things
from occurring whenever the opportunity can be obtained and the
disposition exists between boys and girls, but it does seem to me like
it discloses an utter lack of sense or due proportion to confine a boy
in the county jail for 30 days and expel him for stealing a few pies,
and then to minimize an offense of the character mentioned in connec-
tion with those boys who met the girls improperly and debauched
them.
Will you give me the name of that boy that was sent to jail for
stealing pies?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I want to ask Mr. Friedman something about
that. Does he admit giving you those orders ?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, I think he will, because they have had
trouble about boys stealing pies. And, as I say, they do not have
anyone to watch the place.
The Chairman. Do you know anything about an alleged pig
roast by the football boys in which they are said to have taken two
pigs and roasted them ?
Mr. Whitwell. It is common report.
The Chairman. What was done with them- for that vicious offense ?
Mr. Whitwell. Nothing, so far as I have known.
The Chairman. They were not sent to the county jail?
Mr. Whitwell. No.
Representative Stephens. Do you know of cases of drunkenness
in the school by the boys, and disorderly conduct by boys, who were
not sent home or expelled?
Mr. Whitwell. Oh, yes; quite a number. If we sent them all
home that have gotten drunk I am afraid we would not have many
left.
Representative Stephens. As I understand you, some boys
would be sent home and others kept here ?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Then that constituted a gross viola-
tion of the rights of certain boys, did it not ?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir; and that was what led to the feeling of
the student body toward the superintendent. They see the injus-
tice being done. For instance, there have been very few drunks
sent home.
Representatiye Stephens. It showed partiality in the extreme?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes; that is how they look on it.
Representative Stephens. I believe you stated that the agricul-
tural and harness departments had been abolished. Have any other
departments been abolished?
1086 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. Whitwell. The Indian art department.
Representative Stephens. What else?
Mr. Whitwell. Telegraphy, harness-making, photography
Representative Stephens. What else?
Mr. Whitwell. That is all, I think. Mechanical drawing has
been taken up again.
Representative Stephens. It was abolished a while?
Mr. Whitwell. It was abolished a while, and the mechanical
drawing teacher put on the farm.
Representative Stephens. What did they do with the teachers
that were teaching all these special branches ?
Mr. Whitwell. There was no regular employees for photography;
the physical culture teacher used to do that. The agricultural
department was abolished entirely, and I don't know where the
money went. The rooms were turned into the music department.
Representative Stephens. A conservatory instead of an agricul-
tural department ?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir.
Representative vStephens. What is in that conservatory ?
Mr. Whitwell. Pianos and musical instruments and so on. The
part where we raise plants, however, the gardener uses that to raise
plants for his garden. There is now practically no instruction given,
and the agricultural work seems to be almost ignored, so much so
that it has seemed they treat it almost as a punishemnt to go to the
farm. We had a potato farm, and the boys would not go there.
We had a fine lot of chicken houses built and and an expert from
town come here to supervise it, and they did not get the eggs, and
they tore up the chicken houses.
Representative Stephens. Have they abolished the raising of
chickens ?
Mr. Whitwell. Abolished it entirely. Of course, the boys prob-
ably did get the eggs.
The Chairman. Do you know about the case of — — — ■ • ■ and
Paul Jones ?
]\Ir. Whitwell. Yes, sir. That is the case that the boy and girl
were sent to jail for 60 days.
The Chairman. What for ?
Mr. Whitwell. I understand, for immoral relations, but I do not
know the details.
The Chairman. Did you have anything to do with that case ?
Mr. Whitwell. Nothing whatever.
The Chairman. Did you ever examine the record of the case ?
Mr. Whitwell. No, sir; I never had an opportunity^.
The Chairman. Do you know uj^on whose complaint they were
sent to jail?
Mr. Whitwell. I think it was the disciplinarian. Of course, he
does all that by the superintendent.
Representative Carter. How many industrial departments have
you now? You know, don't you? Suppose you just put them in
the record there.
Mr. Whitwell. There are about 15 here that we have yet.
Representative Carter. Name them for the record.
Mr. Whitwell. Baking, blacksmithing, masonry — that includes
bricklaying, of course — carpentry, wagon making, painting, plumbing,
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1087
and steamfitting, printing, shoemaking, tailoring, tinsmithing, laun-
dering for the girls, sewing, and the agricultural work, which is
hardly worth mentioning. There is no instruction.
Representative Carter. How many teachers have you in those
different departments ?
Mr. Whitwell. One for each.
Representative Carter. How many children have you in each of
those ?
]yir. Whitwell. It varies so much it would be very hard to tell.
The engineer ^vill have something like 10 boys in the morning and 10
in the afternoon. He has one of the largest details. Then the car-
penter, he has a large detail on account of the large amount of repair
work to be done, but the others will probably average four or five
boys each.
Representative vStephens. Is there any one looking after stock-
raising ?
All'. Whitwell. No.
Representative Carter. Then there would not be over 75 or 100
boys m the industrial work?
Mr. Whitwell. No, sir. I have a record that I compiled. We are
using a new blank now to give their grade and the trade they work.
We have them all itemized.
Representative Carter. In your opinion, then, the school is not
very much of an industrial school?
Mr. Whitwell. No, sir. The boys change too much from one
place to another, too.
Representative Carter. The difficulty is they do not keep the boy
in one department long enough to learn a trade ?
Mr. Whitwell. That is it. They won't make him stick to it.
Representative Carter. Could they do it under the present
discipline ?
Mr. Whitwell. I doubt it very much.
Representative Carter. What can you tell us about the general
health of the students ?
Mr. Whitwell. As a rule that does not come under my observa-
tion, any more as we happen to see it in the schoolrooms.
Representative Carter. But you have an opportunity to observe
it, of course ?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes. We have quite frequently sent boys and
girls out of the schoolroom to the hospital for treatment — "adenoids
and such cases as tJiat. They are sometimes run doAvn.
Representative Carter. Are there any children in the school now
afflicted with tuberculosis?
Mr. Whitwell. T could not say positively. I laiow there was a
little while ago. Their plan is to send them home.
Representative Carter. The}^ send them home as soon as they
get it ?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, especially — perhaps not as soon as they
get it, but as soon as they show the case is developed.
Representative Carter. What do they do \nth cases of trachoma ?
Mr. Whitwell. I have seen very httle done. Of course, it may
be done. I know when Dr. White came back the second time he
complained very much.
1088 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Representative CaHter. Is there very much trachoma in this
school ?
Mr. Whitwell. I think there is.
Representative Carter. Are the children who have trachoma
segregated from the others ?
Mr. Whitwell. Not that I know of.
Representative Carter. What system of towels have they, and
bath rooms ?
Mr. Whitwell. I do not know of any special system, any more
than to give each boy a towel once a week.
Representative Carter. Only once a week ?
Mr. Whitwell. Once a week, so I understand.
Representative Carter. Is he required to keep that towel separate,
or can any other boy use it ?
Mr. Whitwell. No; he does not pay much attention to it.
Representative Carter. So there is a wide opportunity for the
spread of that disease.
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. And nothing being done to check it ?
Mr. Whitwell. No.
Representative Carter. In the way of sanitation I mean.
Mr. Whitwell. Yes. One boy in particular, George Marks, is in
the business department, and I ought to have seen it sooner. I
noticed he had a squint, so I sent him over to be examined, and he
had a very severe case of trachoma and had been in school right along.
Representative Carter. What was his name ?
Mr. Whitwell. George Marks.
Representative Carter. Is he still here?
Mr. Whitwell. Yes, he is still here. Of course, he is getting
treatment now.
Representative Carter. Is he segregated?
Mr. Whitwell. I do not think he is; I think he goes with the other
boys. He is in the business department.
Representative Carter. Do you know of any others ?
Mr. Whitwell. No; I do not know of any, but there may be a con-
siderable number that I do not know of. Of course, that does not
come under my special department.
(The following correspondence was submitted by Mr. Whitwell
and ordered to be printed in the record :)
Department of the Interior,
United States Indian Service,
Principal Teachers Office,
Carlisle, Pa., March 27, 1913.
H. B. Peairs,
Supervisor in charge of Indian Schools.
Dear Sir: These are the facts regarding my experience with attendance records at
Carlisle.
When I reported for duty as principal teacher at Carlisle, July 1, 1907, I found,
contrary to the usual custom in other schools, that the principal teacher had nothing
whatever to do with the attendance reports.
It was some time in 1910 before I even saw one of those reports. Consequently I was
naturally somewhat surprised when without any explanation one of the quarterly re-
ports for this year (1910) was sent to me for my signature, I at the time knowing abso-
lutely nothing as to how it was made up.
I signed this report, at the same time resolving in the face of past experience to in-
vestigate a little before I signed another, if called upon to do so. Consequently when
the report for the following quarter was sent to me for my signature and I found some
CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1089
names on the roll that should have been dropped, I immediately wrote a note to Mr.
Miller who was then in charge of the report, asking if there was any authority for carry-
ing such pupils on the roll. Not receiving a reply, I mentioned the matter to Super-
intendent Friedman explaining why I did not sign the report and reminding him of
the trouble caused at Haskell Institute when Supervisor Conser found a few names on
the roll that should have been dropped. Mr. Friedman answered, " It is not necessary
for you to sign them, some one else ■will."
WTien Supervisor Pierce informed me of the condition of the attendance reports, I
simply related in substance what I have written, to show him that I was not in a
position to give him any definite information.
My next experience with the reports was when I was assigned to the work of making
out the same on July 26, 1911. I have made, or super\dsed the making, and signed all
reports since that time.
Very respectfully,
John Whitwell,
Principal Teacher.
Department of the Interior,
United States Indian Industrial School,
Phoenix, Ariz., March 19, 1913.
Mr. John Whitwell,
Principal Teacher, Indian School, Carlisle, Pa.
My Dear Mr. Whitwell: You will recall, no doubt, the visit that Supe^^^.so^
Pierce and I made to Carlisle in February, 1911. I beUeve it was when we examined
the attendance records and found a discrepancy between the enrollment as shown by
the quarterly attendance reports and the actual attendance, plus the actual number
of pupils outing.
I have not the report we made, but as nearly as I can recall there were nearly 200
more names on the roll who were shown as having been in attendance during the full
quarter just previous than were actually present and outing. A careful examination
proved that many pupils who had been at their homes for periods varying from one
or two months up to several years were still carried on the roll and were given full
time in the attendance reports. This was brought to your attention, and you stated
to Super\'isor Pierce and myself that because of that fact you had refused to sign the
quarterly attendance reports, and that Superintendent Friedman told you that you
did not have to do it for he could get some one else to sign them; that, thereafter, the
attendance reports had been made in the superintendent's office and had been signed
by one of the clerks, Mr. Mller, I believe it was.
The discrepancy in the attendance reports was reported by Supervisor Pierce in
his report to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and I was informed that pupils who
were at their homes were dropped. No further action was taken by the office in the
matter except to make a general ruling applying to the service at large, with refer-
ence to dropping pupils from the rolls at the end of not to exceed 30 days after leaving
the school.
I always felt that the action taken by Superintendent Friedman in taking the
attendance reports out of your hands because you would not sign reports which were
padded and having some other employee sign them was entirely wrong, in fact, that
it was an intentional and deliberate falsification of the school records and accounts.
Since Superintendent Friedman has become a candidate for promotion to the office
of Commissioner of Indian Affairs, I have made a statement that Superintendent
Friedman wilfully falsified Ms records and accounts, the particular instance being
the one herein mentioned, the statement which I made found its way to the Secretary
of the Interior and finally to the Office of Indian Affairs, and I am now asked to prove
the statement. I will do so by giving the substance of Super\-isor Pierce's report
upon the attendance at Carlisle at the time he visited the school.
That I may prove that part of the statement in wliich I say that padding of the
accounts was wilfull, intentional and deliberate, I want your sworn statement with
reference to Superintendent Friedman's taking the making of the attendance reports
out of your hands because you were unwilling to sign them when they did not portray
the facts, but showed a padded attendance. As nearly as I can remember, I have
given you the substance of your conversation with Supervisor Pierce and me about
this matter.
I dislike to bring you into this fight, but it is absolutely necessary to do so. I hope,
Mr. Wliitwell, that you will realize the real necessity of gi^'ing me a very carefully
worded and full sworn statement covering the incident, because if you fail to do so,
35601— PT 11—14 9
1090 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
it will be impossible for me to substantiate the charge made. You have the key to
the situation. The records I can easily prove and that the attendance reports were
padded intentionally must be proved by securing your sworn statement. I will get
a sworn statement from Supervisor Pierce verifying my statement that you made
such a statement to both of us, but a statement from you will make the case positive.
You need not have any fear of the result- — you will be protected. Please prepare
the statement and mail four copies of it to me at Lawrence, Kans.,care of Haskell
Institute, at the earliest possible date.
I hope you will consider this matter entirely confidential at the present time.
Sincerely yours,
H. B. Peairs,
Supervisor in charge of Indimi Schools.
(N. B. Signed by himself.)
(N. B. Written in lead pencil : Lawrence, Kans.)
Office of Principal Teacher,
Carlisle Indian School,
October 8, 1913.
Supervisor H. B. Peairs,
Indian Office, Washington, D. C.
Dear Sir: Due to either malice or ignorance on the part of Supervisor Friedman,
I am greatly hindered in successfully carrying on my work as principal teacher at the
Carlisle Indian School, and I ask you as one fully acquainted with the facts concerning
my work before coming here, the circumstances attending my appointment here, the
commissioner's promise made at that time to consider favorably any request I might
make for transfer, also your further acquaintance with some of the difficulties I have
encountered here, to lay before the Commissioner of Indian Affairs at the earliest
possible date the following as a part of the evidence which will go to prove the correct-
ness of the foregoing charges and conclusions.
1. My treatment when I reported as to conditions at athletic quarters during the
quiet hour. I believe Supervisor Peairs and Mr. Carter can explain this.
2. The refusal of the superintendent to support me in refusing to approve of requests
for boys to visit girls at girl's quarters.
3. The ignoring of my suggestion made at a meeting of all employees, that we follow
the old rule of the school and keep boys and girls apart as much as possible.
4. Ignoring my repeated assertion in the face of immorality that the highest test of
the school is its result in moral training.
6. My refusal to approve of a certain boy visiting a certain girl at the hospital at the
request of Miss Guest. Superintendent Friedman suggested over the phone that I had
better approve of it so that he would not have to go over my head. I still refused.
6. My refusal to indorse the moral side of Maj. Mercer's administration. I believe
this to have antagonized those who are now acting as the suijerintendent's tools more
than it has the superintendent himself. The effect, however, is the same.
7. My approval of the Y. W. C. A. secretary's plan to provide amusement during
dancing hours for those who did not wish to dance.
The superintendent called me into his office and in the presence of the secretary
said that while it might be a good thing in some ways it was probably impracticable
and wanted my opinion. He seemed disappointed when I gave it to him.
8. My open criticism of the veracity of a letter which the superintendent proposed
to send to Miss Richards regarding the writing of a letter to the Indian Office by John
Jackson, a pupil.
In the letter which he proposed to send and which he laid before the faculty for
indorsement, he did not state the facts as they were and I told him so.
9. My attitude of withholding indorsement or approval of matters concerning the
school which have been exaggerated or misrepresented. There has been an unlimited
amount of such matter. Past issues of the Red Man and Arrow will prove this.
10. My challenging the assertion on the part of the superintendent at a faculty
meeting to award diplomas^that there was no difference between a ])upil teacher and
a teacher. He said the difference was one of tweedledee or tweedledum. Such
assertions naturally discount the excellent work done in the training of pupil teachers
in our normal department, a work which has always been a strong factor in academic
work. As in other cases the assertion was clearly due to malice or ignorance.
11. My affidavit regarding attendance reports at Carlisle given Supervisor H. B.
Peairs. I wish to say this as an official duty solely.
CARLISLE IXDIAX SCHOOL. 1091
12. My refusal to give false evidence as to tlie keeping of the attendance reports
at Haskell Institute. Since this time my position here has been well nigh unbearable
and only the conviction that I had stood firm for the right has kept me from resigning.
13. During the summer montJis the interests of the academic department haAe been
ignored so far as the detailing of teachers is concerned except oiling floors and cleaning
windows, other tlian this the work done by the director of music in Uie principal
teacher's office was more harmful than otherwise: books were placed on shelves so aa
to look nice instead of being arranged ready for use as they formerly were by teachers
especially detailed for tliat purpose.
14. My open criticism of the small amount of agricultural training given the students
and the undue prominence given to art and telegraphy, both of which have proved
failures at the expense of the academic department, while as the same time the teachers
of these and the music department have received special mention and teachers
who were faitlifully performing their duties almost ignored.
1.5. Two weeks ago I commenced to follow that part of the commissioner's letter of
instructions in "citizenship"' which suggests using the following topics at opening
exercises: "Obedience, cleanliness, and neatness," etc. Last week I received a
three-page letter of instructions regarding chapel exercises, which proA-ided for noth-
ing but what had already been done, except as regards the leading of the singing, but
which did order the elimination of recitations by pupils from the higher grades, such
recitations being specially selected for the moral lesson they contained. As regards
the music, the director of music is to lead in person. This he did on Monday last
while the superintendent was present. He selected for singing one of the hymns for-
bidden by the Indian Office regulations.
Before reading the Scripture lesson I felt it my duty to call attention to this error,
but this did not prevent the superintendent lauding the music and ignoring the rest
of the program, even if it did proAade for carrying out the commissioner's instructions.
The same letter contained such ridiculous instructions regarding dismissal that I felt
compelled to go to the superintendent's office before the next chapel exercises (after
spending considerable time trying to find a way out of the dilemma) and asked to
have them withdrawn, which was granted and the dismissal was conducted in the
usual manner. The following quotation was used at the chapel exercise: "Training
in good habits of thinking and acting is of more value to pupils than the learning of
all that the best text books contain concerning the whole circle of the sciences."
16. I wish to state here that while the preceding incident and many similar ones
have made my position here a very tr\ ing one I still had hopes that I woidd be able
to do just what I have always done in the past and pull through without having to
defend myself, but the following inc'ident which happened yesterday, made it impos-
sible for me to longer remain silent and at the same time preserve a spark of manhood
or honor. Last year at my suggestion a series of debates was carried on between oiu:
literary societies and Carlisle High School students. Supt. Wagner of the city schools,
Siipt. Friedman, and myself met at Supt. Friedman's residence and arranged the
details. The principal teacher at Carlisle has always had supervision of the literary
societies and weekly reports are sent to him by the official visitors. The debates
passed off very satisfactorily and the results justified our planning for another series
of debates.
I found Supt. Wagner willing and glad to help out.
Sometime in the forenoon of yesterday word was sent me from Mr. Meyer's office
that Supt. ^^'agner wanted to speak with me over the phone. I found he wanted to
speak about the debate, which is to be given on November 8. He said Mr. Stauffer
had interviewed him, but he wanted to know when to come out to see Supt. Friedman
and myself so as to arrange details of debate. I told him to hold the phone and I
would try to arrange the date. I asked Supt. Friedman what date would be suitable.
He replied he had instructed advisory members to see Supt. \\'agner and make all
arrangements.
As I was then planning for another debate which is to take place Saturday evenlBg
between members of our different societies, I asked if he had sent out instructions in
regard to this too; he said the head of the department would do that. I asked him
why the head of the department should not do as had been done before and attend to
the other debate, or at lea^t be notified that his services were not needed; he made no
direct reply. I told him I could not go on with my work under such conditions, that
I wantecl to charge him right there with malice or ignorance so far as his attitude to-
ward my work is concerned, and I admit I said some things I should not have said,
amtmg them that he wa>^ a dirty skunk. He called in Miss Rice, the stenographer,
and a.'-kcd me to re pc at what 1 had said. 1 repeated the charge in these words; turn-
ing to Miss nice, and pointing my finger at Superintendent Friedman, I said, "You
1092 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
can say that I charge this man with being guilty of either malice or ignorance so far aa
my work is concerned."
Superintendent Friedman replied that he would prove I was "incompetent."
I answered I was fully aware that he had been distorting the truth and sending
me letters with some such purpose in \'iew, that I had kept the letters and would
prove, when the proper time came, that it was either malice or ignorance that prompted
the writing of them.
I came back to my office and took charge of a meeting of the advisory members and
presidents of the literary societies which are to debate on Saturday evening, outlined
a program and sent it to Superintendent Friedman for approval. I have not heard
from it and I do not know what to do for the best.
Very respectfully, John Whitwell.
United States Indian School,
Carlisle, Pa., October 14, 1913.
Mr. John Whitwell, Principal Teacher:
In a letter to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs you are charged with making an
unwarranted, abusive, and insubordinate attack on the superintendent on the after-
noon of October 7th in his office and calling him "a dirty skunk."
It is also charged that your. work has not been satisfactory or up to the standard,
that you have been derelict in your duty, that you have not \dsited the class rooms
as you should and given instruction to the students, or properly observed the work of
the teachers; and that until I undertook to reorganize your work during the past
summer, it was constantly growing worse instead of better.
You will be given three days to prepare such statement and give answer in such
way to the charges above mentioned as you desire.
Yours, respectfully,
M. Friedman, Superintendent.
1612 State Street, Harrisburg, Pa.,
October 15, 1913.
Bishop Darlington.
My Dear Bishop: If you v,"ish to inquire about Mr. "\^hitwell from the teachers
directly, write to Miss McDowell, in charge of the juniors, high-school department;
Miss Lydia Kemp, head of the normal-training department.
These two teachers are of long standing in the Indian Service and are as concerned
over the deplorable conditions as Mr. AMutwell or n\o.
I trust you can exert a strong influence and hel]i at this time.
Very respectfully,
Josephine W. Hart.
[No. 8.1
August 4, 1913.
Mr. Whitwell: I am sending you herewith copy of a note to Mr. Washington with
reference to the condition of the large-boys' building some days ago. I was over in
the large-boys' quarters Sunday morning and found this condition, if anything, worse.
He has evidently left it at the time of his resignation completely in the hands of the
boys.
It is directed that you and Mr. Collins make a business of getting the building in
shape. For this purpose it will be necessary to utilize a detail of boys and give the
building a thorough cleaning up. It would be well to call the boys together and give
them a talk about the matter, so that they keep their rooms in better condition. But
for the ])resent, and until the disciplinarian returns, it wil! be necessary to make a
daily round of inspection to see that these instructions are carried out. The "leaves"
of one or two teachers expire this week, and if you can utilize their services in this
work let me know and I shall detail them to the large-boys' (juartcM's without delay.
Please give the matter your immediate attention.
Very respectfully,
Moses Friedman,
Superintendent.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1093
[No. 8.]
July 12, 1913.
Mr. Washington,
Acting Disciplinarian.
Dear Sir: I have been through your building several times within the last few
days, and I find a very filthy condition of affairs. Beds are unmade, old clothing is
lying around, the rooms are being used for toilet purposes, the halls are littered, and
the building generally is unkept. You are directed at once to take a detail of boys
and clean this building up from garret to cellar,' and you will see to it hereafter,
while you are in charge of the building, that at all times all the rooms, the halls, and
the immediate premises, are in a neat condition, clean and sweet smelling. The
matter is not one which can be delegated to boys. It should have your personal
attention.
Very respectfully,
Moses Friedman,
Superintendent.
Copy to !Mr. Kensler.
[Notes on superintendent's letter of Aug. i, 191-3, made by Whitwell.]
Tliis shows the character of the work to which I was detailed, and the way in which
other teachers were brought into it.
Of course there was nothing to do but use the other teachers.
The interests of the academic department were not to be even considered.
[No. 9.]
August 8, 1913.
Mr. Whitwell: I am transmitting to you herewith circular letters from the Indian
OflBce with reference to the preparation of compositions on "Citizenship." You are
directed to carry out the instructions given in this letter, transmitting as many as are
necessary to the teachers in whose classrooms these compositions are to be prepared,
and complying in every way with the directions given by the office. The composi-
tions should be prepared on time and mailed in the way designated. This should be
made an opportunity for the development of sound ideas and the giving of thorough
instruction along these lines to our student?.
Very respectfully,
M. Friedman, Superintendent.
[Notes on superintendent's letter of -Vug. 8. 1913, transmitting commissioner's circular regarding
''Citizenship."]
Evidently the superintendent did not read the circular. As I have already shown
he ignored its instructions regarding using such topics as obedience, etc., for talks
at chapel exercises, and sent instructions of his own.
He has taken no further steps to see if this important work is being done, such as he
has taken in many minor matters.
[No. 10.]
August 12, 1913.
Mr. Whitwell: It is directed that you resume your regular activities at the school
building, so as to have all the rooms prepared in the best possible shape, ready for
the school year. The lower floor has been rather badly mussed up on account of
repairs of windows in the hall, and it will be well to lock the doors leading from the
hall to the schoolrooms on both sides. It may be necessary before putting oil on to
have these rooms mopped. The work should be done thoroughly and just now be
resumed so that the entire building is given a chance to dry. Miss McDowell ia
detailed to assist in this matter.
Very respectfully,
M. Friedman, Superintendent.
' " From garret to cellar" should read "from cellar to garret" (in original copy).
1094 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
[Notes on superintendont's letter of Aug. 12, 1913.]
The superintendent evidently thinks my regular activities are as he has here
outlined tnem.
He told me before I left for vacation he was anxious to have the floors oiled as soon
as possible, and Mr. Kensler procured the oil right away and notified Mr. Stauffer
then in charge. The head janitor told me he also had advised Mr. Stauffer, as he
knew that I would have started the work before I left if the oil had been on hand.
[No. 11.]
August 12, 1913.
Mr. DiETz: During the coming school year you will be detailed to take charge of
the mechanical-dra-wdng classes in the shop building in the room which lias been fit-
ted up for that purpose. You should go over the matter thoroughly with Mr. ColUns
in order to get a close insight into the work, and it is directed that you do everything
necessary this summer to prepare yourself to carry on tliis work successfully. It
may be the classes will not begin promptly, after the 1st of September, but they will
be started as soon thereafter as possible. There is a good library on hand in the
mechanical-drawing room for suggestive use. Possibly certain materials will be
needed to carry on the work, and you will ascertain the facts with regard to this by
consultation with Mr. Collins. Go into the work thoroughly, so that all necessary
preparations can be made for the proper conduct and success of instruction in mechan-
ical drawing during the first few months that we shall conduct these classes this year.
Very respectfully,
M. Friedmax, Superintendent.
Copies to Mr. Kensler, Mr. Whitwell, Mr. Collins.
(Notes on superintendent's letter to Mr. Dietz, Aug. 12, 191.3.]
For many months Mr. Collins (for whom the superintendent claims he obtained a
promotion to Riverside School) had been detailed by the superintendent to the farm.
Mr. Dietz, with little or no experience in teaching mechanical drawing, is to take
up the work that an experienced teacher was forced to give up to do farm work.
[No. 12.]
August 18, 1913.
Order:
The telephone now in the principal teacher's house is not needed for official use.
It is directed that this be removed to the teamster's house, where it will be in con-
stant requisition.
M. Friedman, Superintendent.
Copies to Mr. Wliitwell, Mr. Kensler, Mr. Foulk.
[Notes on superintendent's letter of Aug. 18, 1913.)
Evidently the ignoring of the principal teacher, as was done in the matter of arrang-
ing debates, was a premeditated j^lan.
[No. 13.]
August 19, 1913.
Mr. Whitwell: I noticed on Monday that several of the boys working in the school
building were preparing to oil the floor in the business department without mopping
and giving it a thorough cleaning. Such use of the floor oil is worse than useless. As
there was none apparently looking after these boys at the time, it is directed that
whenever floor oiling or any cleaning of this character is done, the boys have definite
personal supervision. You will find that best results can be obtained by working
with the boys.
Very respectfully, M. Friedman, Superintendent.
[Notes on superintendent's letter of .Vug. 19, 1913.]
I admit I was not in the school building at the time the superintendent poked his
head in at the window and said to some boys who were getting ready to oil, ''You are
not going to oil that floor without mopping, are you? " The boys had not so far oiled
CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1095
any floors without mopping, and at that time mops, buckets, and brooms were in the
room, and Miss McDowell, who had attended to all the mopping, was i^reparing to
attend to this.
[No. 15.]
September 3, 1913.
Mr. Whitwell. As there seems to be a misunderstanding with reference to what is
to be expected of the students in the business department, the.se instructions are
issued.
Those students who are regular students of the business department by \drtue of
being graduates of this school, or the graduates of some other school, and have passed
an examination here for proper entrance as regular students in the business depart-
ment, will attend classes in that department both morning and afternoon. The princi-
pal teacher, acting in conjunction with the business teacher, will decide whether
certain other students who have been in the business department for a year or more
shall be considered as regular students. All regular students of the business depart-
ment will be expected to take care of their rooms and perform other domestic duties
such as will not interfere with their attendance on their regular classes during the
day and the study hour in the evening, which duties will be assigned them by the
matron or disciplinarian.
All students who are in the business department for part time, and are undergrad-
uates, will be permitted to attend school only one half day, and will be detailed to
some regular industrial department the other half day. It will be well, hereafter,
not to extend special permission to students in the departmental grades to attend the
business department. The business teacher will have sufficient work to take up all
her time by handling the regular students of the business department and looking
after the special classroom instruction, which is to be given to all the departmental
grades.
Very respectfully,
M. Friedman, Superintendent.
[Notes on superintendent's letter of Sept. 3, 1913.]
This is in a large measure explained in my comments on superintendent's letter of
May 26, 1913.
[No. 16.]
September 4, 1913.
Mr. Whitwell. It is desired that you submit a program showing hours, etc., so that
the moral instruction mentioned in the communication herewith submitted can be
given. The work can commence Monday morning, November 10, and continue for
the next four days thereafter.
Very respectfully,
M. Friedman, Superintendent,
(Dr. Fairchild's program attached.)
[Notes on superintendent's letter of Sept. 4, 1913.]
I simply submit this as showing I am still called on to do the organizing of my
work, despite the superintendent's claim that he has undertaken such work.
[No. 17.]
September 9, 1913.
Mr. Whitwell: I have been visiting the various class rooms during the study
hour period, and several things have crept in which are inimical to the best interests
of the study hour period.
For instance, I note one of the class rooms spends a period of time singing before
the study hour work begins. This is unnecessary, breaks into the study hour period,
and interferes with the study of the other classes which do not happen to be conduct-
ing similar work, and prevents concentration on the part of the students in these other
classes.
In visiting the library, I noticed that the four upper or departmental grades are
permitted to spend one evening each week in the library. It is presumed that this
1096 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
was for the purpose of real study or for reference work under the personal direction
of the teacher in charge and of the librarian. Last evening I saw one of the classes
there and a large number of the students were reading the comic section of the Sunday
newspapers. This can hardly be termed studying. The students have ample time
to read newspapers in the quarters during their spare time. If the departmental
grades are permitted to go into the library, the librarian should have all the maga-
zines and newspapers out of the way, and it should be insisted upon that the stu-
dents spend this time in studying matter pertaining to their class-room work. It is di-
rected, therefore, that these practices be stopped and you will give your personal
attention to the matter.
Very respectfully, M. Friedman, Superintendent.
Respectfully forwarded to teachers for their information and guidance.
Very respectfully,
John Whitwell, Principal Teacher.
[Notes on superintendent's letter of September 9, 1913.]
Paragraph 2. Several teachers had suggested to me that five minutes might well
be given to opening exercises. Any teacher knows the value of a few minutes spent
this way.
I approved their request on condition that the work of other rooms was not to be
interfered with. It was which could only be for the first five minutes, then the
superintendent's instructions were in line with my own.
Paragraph 3. Since this was written the superintendent has silently indorsed these
students being in the library at this time . The freshmen are going on Monday evening,
the sophomores on Tuesday evening, the juniors on Wednesday evening, and the
seniors on Thursday evening. The class in question was the freshman class (their
teacher, who was promoted over my protest as not being "staid" enough for this
position, although a good teacher in a lower room). There were other teachers better
fitted for this room. This proves it.
For a while her class had to be kept out, and no later than Monday evening last the
librarian complained that they were not as well behaved as the others.
[No. 18.]
September 9, 1913.
Mr. Whitwell: For the safety of the girls and for proper discipline it is directed
that hereafter when the girls go to study hour that they all march in through the
front hall and go to their various class rooms by passing through the downstairs rooms,
and if they attend classes upstairs they shall go by way of the inside stairways. It
has been found that boys on several occasions linger around the hat rooms on the
outside of the porch when the girls march in. You should be on duty yourself in
the hall to see that proper discipline is maintained .
Very respectftdly,
M. Friedman, Superintendent.
Miss Ridenour.
Mr. McKean.
Mr. Denny.
Respectfully forwarded to teachers for their information and guidance.
Very respectfully,
John Whitwell, Principal Teacher.
[Not<is on superintendent's letter of Sept. 9, 1913, regarding safety of the girls and proper discipline.)
Up to this time I had stood every evening outside the building, opposite the center,
when both boys and girls marched in. I could see them enter their schoolroom
doors. The teacher was inside, and if a boy loitered in the cloakroom that teacher
was to blame.
The superintendent's instructions have been carried out. Some teachers have to
leave their rooms to stand at the head of the stairways as the girls enter.
By discussing plans at teachers' meetings we have been able to carry out the super-
intendent's instructions.
When he says, "You should be on duty yourself in the hall to see that proper disci-
pline is maintained," he evidently wants to give the impression that I had not been
on duty and was not looking after the discipline. A boy may loiter any time, but
there is a way to remedy it.
CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1097
There has never been any serious trouble about getting the pupils to their rooms,
but if the teachers and I had not planned in detail at teachers' meetings as to how we
were to assemble all the girls at one time in the hall for dismissal , as instructed by
the superintendent, there would have been a grand mix-up; the same with the boys.
[No. 19.]
Septembeii 18, 1913.
Mr. Whitwell. The lights in the office of the school building and in one or two
of the rooms are not always turned off after study hour in the evening. You wall
find it desirable to stay at the school building until all lights are turned off proj)erly
and the building properly closed for the night. Experience has shown that it is
unsafe to allow matters of this kind to boy janitors.
Very respectfully,
M. Friedman, Superintendent.
[Notes on superintendent's letter of Sept. 18, 1913.]
Last night Mr. Stauffer was using the lights in the music room after study hour.
The head janitor was there. With all the other lights turned out, why should not he,
with the help of of the head janitor, attend to his own lights.
I simply mention this to show the circumstances under which some lights may be
burning after study hour.
[No. 20.]
September 23, 1913.
Mr. Whitwell: Bruce Goesback, who was dropped some months ago as a student,
when he was taken up on the Government pay roll, was dropped from the Govern-
ment pay roll beginning with September 1, and he is to be taken up again on the
rolls as a student beginning with this date, the 23rd.
Very respectfully,
M. Friedman, Superintendent.
Copy to Mr. McKean.
[Notes on superintendent's letter of Sept. 23, 1913.]
I simply send this to complete the list of letters sent to me by the superintendent
since the time he claims to have undertaken the work of organizing my department.
Department of the Interior,
United States Indian School,
Carlisle, Pa., December 12, 191.3.
Mr. Whitwell: As per instructions from the superintendent, Bruce Goesback is
to be dropped from the school rolls on November 30, 1913, and will be taken up as
an employee beginning December 1, 1913.
Very respectfully
, Chief Clerk.
[No. 21.]
Carlisle, Pa., September 29, WIS.
Superintendent Friedman: The reports from girls' quarters have been returned
without the health of the girls being reported. The matron advises this is to be done
at the hospital. I have no instructions to this effect. The disciplinarians have made
their reports just as they have always been nmde, and it is evident that the hospital
officials are not in a position to report on boys and girls they do not even see, but of
course I simply want to know how to do it and will be guided by the instructions from
the proper authority.
I inclose reports showing how the matter has been handled in the past. Monthly
letters are being held.
Very respectfully,
John Whitwell.
1098 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
[Notes on principal teacher's letter to Supt. Friedman, Sept. 29, 1913.]
Anyone versed in school matters will realize what it means to have to take this
method of "finding out" as to a procedure which I judge has been in vogue here
ever since the school was organized.
[No. 22.]
September 29, 1913.
Mr. Whitwell: WTiile the monthly school entertainment on Saturday night was a
distinct improvement on the poor programs which have been given at times during the
past year or two, it was not of the high order and excellence which should characterize
a monthly program by a school of this character and size. Some of the numbers had
distinct merit and were well rendered, while others were far below par.
So that these programs can be further improved, and the students obtain the maxi-
mum amount of benefit from them, you will initiate at once the following plan: One
number should be given by the students of each class, including one from the business
department. This will mean that etch month every teacher in the school building
will have one number on. These numbers may be readings, recitations, orations
current events, or of similar character. All the vocal, instrumental, and musical
numbers will be given by the music department, under the director of music as here-
tofore.
This will provide a program of proper length. I noticed that the program on Satur-
day evening was of hardly half an hour's duration.
It is further directed, and the teachers will see the importance of this, that the stu-
dents be carefully trained.
It is not sufficient that students memorize the words of whatever piece they give.
It is of great importance that they get the meaning of the piece, the proper intonations
and gestures, and that they speak in a sufficiently loud tone to be heard distinctly
in all parts of the room. In order to get these results, the students must be given their
numbers at an earlier date, and they must be trained.
I also desire that the band be present at earh of these monthly entertainments,
instead of the orchestra, to occupy the stage and intersperse several selections.
1 am sending you a sample program, which was given at Carlisle, Thursday, April
21, 1904, which will indicate how these programs are to be prepared in the future.
In having the program printed, 1 itot only wish the number of the room printed, but
the name of the teacher as well. These monthly entertainments are of great import-
ance. The program should be prepared early in the month, so that when it is given
the last Saturday of the month, both students and teachers will have had sufficient
time for preparation .
These monthly meetings should provide an evening of recitation, song, and enter-
tainment, such as will enthuse and inspire the entire student body, and nothing short
of the best should be given. I feel very confident that the teachers at Carlisle will
cooperate thoroughly to bring these programs to such a high state of efficiency as will
accord with the age and advancement of the student body and the size and standing
of the school.
Very respectfully,
M. Friedman, Superintendent.
[Notes on superintendent's letter of Sept. 29, 1913.]
Paragraph 1. The superintendent evidently forgets or does not know that the
primary object of these entertainments is to train pupils from first grade to senior in
the art of speaking in public, and of memorizing things worth remembering. It is
not for show, and it was the fact that many teachers and the superintendent at the time
thought that the programs were unnecessarily long, that led to the j^rogram's being
shortened .
However, I believe the old plan of having a representative speaker from each room,
is better than the present plan of alternating each month ; but it is not to be expected
that all numbers from all classes of pupils will always be perfect. It is more important
that they be the right kind of numbers and afford material for character training, than
that they should be showy and at the same time detrimental to the best interests of
the school and the s]>eaker like the numbers Mrs. Lovewell com]ilains of in her letter
to Mr. Stauffer, which 1 am inclosing. The fact that the superintendent lauds Mr.
Stauffer and censures Mrs. I.ovewell, would seem to indicate his neglect to appreciate
this side of the (juestion.
I will be glad, however, to do all possible in the way of improving our programs.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL, 1099
September 30, 1913.
Mr. Whitwell. For the improvement of the regular chapel or assembly exercises,
which are held in connection with the work of the academic department, and for the
guidance of all those concerned when there is a general meeting of the student body,
either at the time of the monthly program or when I speak to the students, or have
outside speakers, the following instructions are issued:
The following program will be followed for the Monday chapel exercises:
1. A selection by the orchestra.
2. The singing of a carefully selected song with a good theme.
3. The reading of the Bible lesson.
4. Repeating the Lord's prayer.
5. A talk by the principal teacher.
6. General instructions to students, or announcements with reference to changes,
schedules, etc.
7. The singing of a song.
8. Dismissal.
The Bible reading should be of sufficient length — ^usually a chapter — so that a
definite lesson is conveyed, and it should be varied from week to week. These
Bible readings should be in accordance with the regulations, as follows:
"Sec. 13. (a) Substitute the revised version for the King James version of the Bible
for scriptual reading, and confine these to the four Gospels and the Acts of the
Apostles."
The talk indicated by the principal teacher should be at least 10 minutes long,
carefully prepared, and on some well-defined subject which will point out some ideal
or lesson in life, or on an educational theme, or on some current event, which should be
discussed at length and a definite lesson drawn, either in civic sartue or leading toward
citizenship, or for character building.
The various student numbers by students of the upper classes will be eliminated
in the future.
In order to obtain the best results and to have proper direction given to the sing-
ing, all singing at chapel exercises, or at the general assemblies of students, will be
led personally by the director of music, you to announce the number of the song.
These same instructions will govern at meetings where the superintendent presides.
WTien the time comes for the dismissal of students, it will be done by the principal
teacher, or whoever is in charge, calling on each section of the students to rise in
turn — small boys first, large boys next, girls third — with instructions to the student
officers to march off their troops; it is not desired, hereafter, that the students be
stopped, or that time be marked for them by the snapping of fingers. If the officers
do not march off their students properly, a note should be made of the fact and they
should be instructed privately, or by gathering all the officers together and giving them
proper instructions. As a matter of fact, whenever I have dismissed the students I
have followed this procedure and have never had occasion to criticize the way the
students marched out. When the superintendent is in charge of a general assembly
he will look after the dismissal of the students himself. When the principal teacher
is in charge of the chapel exercises or an assembly he will dismiss them in the way
above mentioned, and after calling on the sections to rise will stand off at a distance
and allow the captains to take charge.
The careful carrying out of these instructions will be of material assistance, not
only in gi/ing proper instruction and in enthusing and inspiring the student body,
but in creating that initiative and proper conduct during assemblies as is of most
value to students.
Very respectfully,
M. Friedman, Superintendent.
[Notes on superintendent's letter of Sept. 20, 1913.)
(See also copy of my letter of October 15, bearing on this matter.)
In this letter he directs that recitations by pupils in the chapel exercises on Mondays
be discontinued. While this request has been complied with, it is not a change for
the better. These recitations were helpful not only to those who committed and
recited them, but to those who listened to them. They were carefully selected recita-
tions, upbuilding in character. They did require extra work on the part of both pupil
and teacher, but it was work that was worth while. Sometimes those recitations were
printed in the Arrow under heading as essays.
A teacher protested to the clerk at the printing office that they were not original
essays but recitations copied, committed and recited, the reply was, we are to print
them as directed.
1100 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
ICommeuts on superintendent's letter of May 26, 1913, whicb was addressed to Miss Moore through Mr.
Whitwell.]
Paragraph 2. No instruction in business training was given to departmental stu-
dents at this time simply because to make a place for the assistant art teacher and
assistant coach, the time formerly given to business training was given to drawing by
special order of the superintendent.
AVhen the assistant coach was made teacher of mechanical drawing then the business
classes were resumed just as they had been before the drawing classes were begun.
Paragraph 3. These rules were suggested by me at faculty meeting and are now in
the calendar word for word just as I wrote them.
Paragraph 4. No other student with as little preparation as James Thorpe has ever
been admitted to the department. He was never recognized by me as a business stu-
dent, but spent part of his time in the department. He did not enter his regular
classes.
Reports to disciplinarian of his absence from his regular class brought no results.
All the superintendent would say was that he should attend school all day.
TESTIMONY OF MISS JULIA HARDIN.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. Your name is JuHa Hardin ?
Miss Hardin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Are you a pupil in the Carlisle School ?
Miss Hardin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How long have you been studying there?
Miss Hardin. Three years next September.
The Chairman. What class are you in ?
Miss Hardin. Business department.
The Chairman. What is your age ?
Miss Hardin. Eighteen.
The Chairman. Where are you from ?
Miss Hardin. Shawnee, Okla.
The Chairman. What tribe ?
Miss Hardin. Pottawatomie.
The Chairman. Are you full-blood ?
Miss Hardin. One-quarter.
The Chairman. Where did you go to school before you came to
Carlisle ?
Miss Hardin. Sacred Heart, Oklahoma; convent school.
The Chairman. What have you been stydying there ?
Miss Hardin. In the business department, taking up law, short-
hand, typewiiting, spelling, arithmetic, and EngUsh.
The Chairman. Who is your teacher ?
Miss Hardin. Miss Moore.
The Chairman. What is your relationship with her ? How do you
get along ?
Miss Hardin. Very well. 1 have always gotten "excellent" in my
reports.
The Chairman. You have gotten "excellent" on all your reports?
Miss Hardin. Every month since I have been in there.
The Chairman. How do you get along with her with reference to
being friendly ?
Miss Hardin. We are all right.
The Chairman. You have had no trouble whatever?
Miss Hardin. No, sir.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1101
The Chairman. Did you desire to go into the country and work in
somebody's home ?
Miss Hardin. I wanted to go after I found out the girls were all
going. I asked if I could go — the outing agent came to me and
asked me if I wanted to go to the country. I said, *'I don't want to
go right away." She said, "Come and sign, and we mil look up
your country home." I said, "Wait until I get a trunk and some
clothes." I did not want to sign right away, but she said to sign
so she could be looking up my home in the meantime.
The Chairman. When were you informed you had to leave to go
to the country ?
Miss Harding. One morning, I think it was the 2d of June. They
told me that morning just before dinner that I was to leave the next
morning on the early train.
The Chairman. Who was it that told you that you must get ready
to go to the country ?
Miss Hardin. The report came here from the matron's office. I
did not know who sent it, but it said, "You are to go to the country
to-morrow morning. Come out and get your things ready."
The Chairman. Were you ready to go then ?
Miss Hardin. No ; I had no trunk, and not the clothes thai I wanted.
The Chairman. Wliat did you do ?
Miss Hardin. I came over and I saw our matron about it. She
said she had nothing to do -with it; that I was supposed to go to the
country. She sent me up to the office, and I went up to Mrs. La
Flesche. Mrs. La Flesche said I was to go to the country, and if I
did not want to go I was to see Mr. Friedman about it. So after
dinner I ran u]) and met Mr. Friedman and asked him could I wait,
and I stated just how it was. He said, "I have not anything to do
with it; go to your matron."
The Chairman. The matron sent you to ISupt. Friedman and he
sent you back to the matron ?
Miss Hardin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you go back ?
Miss Hardin. I went back to her and I told her. She said she had
nothing to do with it; tfiat I had to go to the superintendent. So
neither one gave a definite answer and I did not know Avhat to do.
I went to school that afternoon; so she sent for me from scliool. I
came over, and she told me I was to get my clothes ready and take
them in a bundle if I did not have any trunk.
The Chairman. What did you do ?
Miss Hardin. I came over and I went in the sewing room — the
clothes room, rather — and I told her that I did not want to take my
clothes in a bundle. She told me to sit on a chair, and I sat there.
I waited there until she got througli jiacking u]) the clothes. Finally
Mr. Stauffer came in. He said, "Julia Hardin, you are going to the
country." I never said anything else. Finally lie said, "Go in the
office, there." I walked in the office, and theio was a check to sign
for my train fare. He told me to sign the check. 1 said, "1 liave not
got my clothes ready." He said, "Don't mind about your clothes."
1 refused to sign the check; so he grabbed me and said, "You are
going to sign it." So he slapped me.
The Chairman. With his liand ^
Miss Hardin. With his hand.
1102 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. Where did ho strike you ?
Miss Hardin. On my face.
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Miss Hardin. Then 1 stepped hack and he said, "You are going to
sign this check and go to the country to-night at 5 o'clock. We are
not going to let you wait and go with the other gii-ls." They had my
uniform there. He said, "We are not talking about your clothes or
anything. You are going to the country." I just sat there. He
said, "1 am going to give you a sound thrashing, and I will stand the
responsibility." I told him, "Well, if you had let me get ready I
would sign it, but not until." He said, "You will go as I say. We
won't make any arrangements for you."
So I stayed there, and all of a sudden he jerked a board down from
one of the window^ sills and he ]:)ushed me down on the floor, and two
of the matrons held me ; Miss Ridenour w^as one, and I don't know who
the other was. They })ut down the curtains, so no one could see in,
and they locked the door.
The Chairman. Who locked the door ?
Miss Hardin. I think it was Miss Ridenour.
The Chairman. Well, they held you. What did he do?
Miss Hardin. He whipped me.
The Chairman. Wliat with ?
Miss Hardin. With the board off the window sill.
The Chairman. How many times did he strike you ?
Miss Hardin. He whipped me for at least ten minutes.
The Chairman. Did he hurt you ?
Miss Hardin. Yes, sir; he did.
The Chairman. How large was the board ?
Miss Hardin. It was one of those boards off the window; that long
and that wide [indicating].
The Chairman. About three inches wide
Miss Hardin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And 2 or 2^ feet long?
Miss Hardin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Wliat position was you lying in on the floor?
Miss Hardin. I was lying on the floor and he would keep pusliing
me up against the wall.
The Chairman. Were you on your back or on your face ?
Miss Hardin. I was on my face, because I had my hand over
m}^ head.
The Chairman. Where did he strike you ?
Miss Hardin. On the head, and every place. He hit me in the
face, and every place, so I laid w^ith my hand like this so lie could not
touch my faco.
The Chairman. How did lie come to whip you ? Was he con-
nected with the discipline in any way ? Did he explain to you ?
Miss Hardin. He did not (>x])lain anything. He came in there,
and just as soon as he said "wSigu that cli(H*k," and I m^ver signed it,
why \\" said, "I will stand tho responsibility." And Miss Ridenour
said, "Yes, go ahead." And h-> said, "Shall 1 whi|i h(>r soni'^ mor«^ ? "
He said, "Well, I will stand it; I will not 1 >t her get ahead of me "
The Chairman. Did Mr. Wliitw< 11 come ovrr there ?
Miss Hardin. Yes. Finally Mr. Stauffer got through whii)])ing me,
I guess he got tired. He sat down, and he said, "Are you going?"
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1103
and I said, "Not on condition the way you aro treating me." He
sent for Mr. Whitwell, and .Mr. Whitwell came over and he came up
to me, and he said, ''Julia Hardin, are my eyes deceiving me, or
what?" He came over to me and spoke in a nice way, and said,
"Come on, Julia; come over and sign this check and go to the coimtry,
and show them you are a lady." I said, "All right," and I signed
the check, and I went to the country the next morning. After Mr.
Whitwell left, Mr. Stauffer and Miss Ridenour took me to the lock-up.
I stayed there until after supper, and I went out to get my clothes.
When she took me back it was awful hot in there, so I asked her if I
would apologize to her would she take me out on condition I was
going to the country. She said, "If you apologize to us we will let
you out," so I apologized to her. But she said, "We don't want you
with the girls," so she put me ^own in her room that night.
The Chairman, \^^:lere did you go in the country ?
Miss Hardix. Merchantville, N. J.; Mr. and Mrs, Crawford.
The Chairman. How long did you stay there ?
Miss Hardin. Three months.
The Chairman. Wliat did you get ?
Miss Hardin, Six dollars a month.
The Chairman. What did you do?
Miss Harding. Washing, scrubbing, housecleaning, and cooking.
The Chairman. Did you pay your railroad fare one way?
Miss Hardin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What were your railroad expenses?
Miss Hardin. $3.79.
The Chairman. How did the people with whom you were staying
treat you?
Miss Hardin. They treated me nice.
The Chairman. Have you had any trouble since you came back?
Miss Hardin. No.
The Chairman. Have you ever had any trouble with the teachers
or matrons before ?
Miss Hardin. No, sir.
The Chairman. Didn't you use some offensive language or some-
thing to cause them to loose their temper ?
Miss Hardin. No, sir.
The Chairman. You got mad, of course?
Miss Hardin. Yes, I got mad, of course.
The Chairman. Did you come here with the expectation or inten-
tion of being sent out into the country ?
Miss Hardin. I knew nothing about it.
The Chairman. Did you know how to do housework before you
came here ?
Miss Hardin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you consent to study housework?
Miss Hardin. Why, no; I know nothing about it.
The Chairman. After you came, you say, you understood some of
the girls were going, and you divl consent to go on, condition you
would have an opportunity to get ready ?
Miss Hardin. Yes, sir. But at the lime the report came for mo
to go Miss Johnson was not hore, so I did not have any proof that I did
intend to go on these conditions.
1104 CARLISLE INDL4.N SCHOOL.
The Chairman. Do you know whether Mr. Stauffer has whipped
any other pupils or not ?
Miss Hardin. Yes, sir; he has whipped several of his band boys
in the guard house.
The Chairman. Can you name some ?
Miss Hardin. Two, and I forgot the other boys' names.
The Chairman. He whipped them in the guard house ?
Miss Hardin. Yes, sir; while they were in there, he and Mr.
Warner.
The Chairman. Do you know the names of the other boys ?
Miss Hardin. Robert Nash.
The Chairman. Is he here now?
Miss Hardin. He is here now. The other one is away.
The Chairman. Do you know of other girl students in the school
who have been struck or whipped by any other person at Carlisle ?
Miss Hardin. There is a lot of girls over there.
The Chairman. You have named Robert Nash as one of the boys
that were whi]:)]ied in the lock-up by Mr. Warner and Mr. Stauffer.
Were the other boys Thomas Nicholas and Charles Bellcourt ?
Miss Hardin. I do not know of them.
The CmviRMAN. Did you know of Miss Ridenour and Miss Rosa
Knight having a difference ?
Miss Hardin. Rose Whipper — yes, sir.
The Chairman. What do you know about that?
Miss Hardin. One Sunday morning I was in my room — I got
excused from church; and Rose Wliipper — I don't know whether
she got excused or not; I won't say; but I was in my room, and I
heard a noise in the next room, and Miss Ridenour slapped Rose. So
Rose got out, and the first thing I saw was them scuffling right out
in the hall. They were down on the floor with each other, so I saw
Rose — she had her hands in Miss Ridenour's hair, and she had her
hands around Rose's neck. They were what you would call regular
scuffling. Miss Ridenour would say, "Let go of my hair," and Miss
Rose would say, "Let go of my neck." Finally she called Miss
Knight up there, and she and Miss Knight whipped Rose.
The Chairman. How old is she ?
Miss Hardin. Nineteen or twenty. Then they put her in the
lock-up.
The Chairman. You have had no further trouble since the incident
you have already narrated ?
Miss Hardin. No, sir.
Representative Carter. Miss Julia, did you ever have any trouble
at other schools before you came here ?
Miss Hardin. No, sir.
Representative Carter. Were you ever corrected or chastised in
any way at other schools ?
Miss Hardin. I was corrected for little things I have done, but
never for anything that was serious.
Representative Carter. You were never chastised ?
Miss Hardin. No, sir.
Representative Carter. You say that you got "excellent" in
everything ?
Miss Hardin. I got "excellent" ever since I have been here every
day of school.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1105
Representative Carter. "Excellent" in deportment?
Miss Hardin. Yes, sir; that is what 1 mean.
Representative Carter. You did not get "excellent" for the
month that you had the trouble over there, did you ?
Miss Hardin. Wh}', that was the month that — the i:d of June I
went to the country, and I never got my report.
Representative Carter. You have had "excellent" in deport-
ment ever since you have been here, while you were in the school and
while you were out in the country ?
Miss Hardin. Yes, sir. When I went out in the country my
country people knew all about this, and when I arrived there she
told me, she said: "JuUa, we \nll have to go rather hard on you." I
said, "Why is that?" She said, "Because we have a report from
school that you had some trouble in coming out here. You are not
allowed to go out and visit your friends or anything,"
The Chairman. Did they tell you who had sent that report out
there ?
Miss Hardin. Thev never said, but they knew the whole story.
They knew all about it when they met me at the station. She said,
"If you are not what they say you are you will have to prove it."
The Chairman. So you went out there wath a bad reputation ?
Miss Hardin. Yes.
The Chairman. From the school here ?
Miss Hardin. Yes.
The Chairman. How did you get along with them ?
Miss Hardin. I got along fine. She said — when Miss Johnson
came out there ^liss Johnson tried to explain the troubles I had.
She said, "I don't want to hear anything about it. Julia has always
been good as long as she has been out here, and I have got a good
opinion of her, and I don't want anyone to change it." And she
would not listen. She called me right in and told me. Miss John-
son started in again, and she said, "Miss Johnson, I don't want to
know anything about it."
The Chairman. How long had you been there when Miss Johnson
came out and made that statement ?
Miss Hardin. The second day.
The Chairman. What was her object in coming out ?
Miss Hardin. I don't know; I know nothing about it.
Representative Stephens. What position does she hold here?
Miss Hardin. She is outing agent.
Representative Carter. How many times did this fellow Stauffer
throw you down and whip you ?
Miss Hardin. He must have thrown me down five or six times.
Representative Carter. Are your mother and father living now,
Miss Julia ?
Miss Hardin. No, sir.
Representative Carter. Both are dead ?
Miss Hardin. Yes.
Representative Carter. How long have they been dead ?
Miss Hardin. My father has been dead five or six yeai-s.
Representative Carter. Did he die before you came here ?
Miss Hardin. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. And your mother died earlier ?
35601— PT 11— 14 10 .' i
1106 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Miss Hardin. Yes.
Representative Carter. You are an orphan girl ?
Miss Hardin. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. How did you happen to come to this
school, Miss Julia ?
Miss Hardin. Well, there are several of my friends, girl chums,
that were coming, and one day they came over and asked me if I
would not come along. My guardian said he thought it would be a
nice trip and everything. He said we could come if we wanted to.
Representative Carter. Wlio is your guardian ?
Miss Hardin. Mr. Bunton, at Shawnee.
Representative Carter. How many times did this fellow strike
you ? Could you give us an estimate ?
Miss Hardin. About 60 times.
Representative Carter. Did he leave any marks on you ?
Miss Hardin. He did when he hit me on my face. Of course, I
had my hands over my face.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. ANGEL DIETZ.
The witness was duly sworn, by the chairman.
Representative Carter. Mrs. Dietz, can you tell us about the
discipline and the general conditions in the school at Carlisle ?
Mrs. Dietz. Yes; it has been more or less neglected. It is just
practically herding them together, and never giving them advice
or counsel. The general outward discipline has been kept up, punish-
ments and that sort of thing, but there is the underlying general
neglect of advice and talkings-to they would seem to need.
Representative Carter. Mrs. Dietz, what about the morals of the
school and the attempt to enforce moraUty in the school ? Are the
morals of the school good or bad ?
Mrs. Dietz. I think it is, according to this list of names I have;
it is pretty bad.
Representative Carter. What is this Ust of names you have, Mrs.
Dietz ?
Mrs. Dietz. It is an incomplete list of names of girls that I have
taken, given me by the girls. They are girls that have been ruined
morally.
Representative Carter. In the school ?
Mrs. Dietz. Yes.
Representative Carter. How many of them are there, Mrs. Dietz?
Mrs. Dietz. I have 28 here.
Representative Carter. How long a period of time has that been
running ?
Mrs. Dietz. This covers I do not know how many years, but it is
just since Mr. Friedman's time. We did not expect an}- names that
came before that.
Representative Carter. Those girls have all been ruined in the
institution and sent back to their several homes ?
Mrs. Dietz. And out in the country, in the outing districts, some
of them, and here in the school.
Re])resentative Carter. They were ruined in the outing districts
and at the school ?
Mrs. Dietz. Yes, sir.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1107
Representative Carter. About what proportion of them, Mrs.
Dietz, were ruined in the school, and what proportion in the onting ?
Mrs. Dietz. That I failed to put down here, but these names writ-
ten in ink (the first 22) were the names given me by the girls who
had been here at least four years, and these names I put dow-n after-
wards as ones I remembered and others suggested to me — ^these
names in pencil. I do not know which ones w^ere ruined in the out-
ing districts. I failed to put that down.
(The list leferred to is as follows:)
3. -
4. -
5. -
6. -
7. -
8. -
9. -
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.
25.
26.
27.
28.
Representative Carter. Mr. Friedman knows of all this trans-
action, does he ?
Mrs. Dietz. Yes; and they punished the girls — put them in the
lock-up. And in cases where it v/r.s impossible to keep them in the
school I think they sent them home, but the pmiishment of expul-
sion was never pronounced on them until this case
took place. I have her name here. That occurred last year. I
was higlil}' interested in her case; she was a relation of my mother's.
When she was sent hero she was sent somewhat in my care, and I
kept my eye on the girl for a couple t)f years. Then when she went
wrong i went up to Mr. Friedman. I asked him what he was going
to do in case, and he said he was going to have her
sent out to the country. I said, "What good will that do, Mr.
Friedman, because I understand the girl rebels against that, and
she threatens to do worse. She has got to the point of recklessness."
And Mr. Friedman said it was because she did not want to go, that
that was punishment. He was not going to allow her to marry the
1108 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
young man, because they wanted to get married. He was one of
the school boys here. Then he asked me what reason I had for
taking an interest in this case. I said, ''For the reason that she is
a cousin of my mother's, and when she was sent here she was put
under my observation." Then he changed his attitude, and he
asked me what suggestions I would make, and as I could not make
any suggestions, because he was the head of the school, and I just
waited his orders, because I wanted to know so I could send word
out to the people. That was the first case they ever expelled. I
suggested to him that no punishment would be great enough for a
girl who went wrong, because she had learned better before she came
here.
Representative Carter. Was this boy that she wanted to marry
the boy that had ruined her?
Mrs. DiETz. Yes.
Representative Carter. And Mr. Friedman prevented that, or
tried to ?
Mrs. DiETz. Yes; he said he would not allow them to marry,
because that is what they wanted to do.
Representative Carter. x\nd where is the girl now, Mrs. Dietz ?
Mrs. DiETZ. She is home.
Representative Carter. With her mother?
Mrs. Dietz. Yes. He expelled her, and that was the first time
that the sentence of expelling was pronounced on a girl that went
wrong.
Representative Carter. That was the first girl that was expelled
for that kind of offense ?
Mrs. Dietz. Yes.
Representative Carter. That was done because you objected to
him keeping her in the school?
Mrs. Dietz. Yes. I told him that if the school rules had failed
to keep her straight it was time she was under the care of her mother
and grandmother, and he said: "That is what I will do; I will expel
her."
Representative Carter. And he then sent her home ?
Mrs. Dietz. Yes.
Representative Carter. You neglected to state to begin with
what your position is.
Mrs. Dietz. I have charge of the art department.
Representative Carter. You are an art teacher?
Mrs. Dietz. Yes.
Representative Carter. You are an Indian, are you not?
Mrs. Dietz. Yes.
Representative Carter. What degree of blood ?
Mrs. Dietz. I am three-fourths Indian.
Representative Carter. What tribe?
Mrs. Dietz. Winnebago.
Rei)resentative Carter. Now, Mrs. Dietz, can you tell us about
the unjust treatment of the boys and girls l)y the management here?
Mrs. Dietz. I do not exactly know how to answer that question.
Representative Carter. Do they treat them all alike?
Mrs. Dietz. I hardly think so. A good many students complain
of the treatment, and it hardly seems just to me sometimes.
CARLISLE INDL\N SCHOOL. 1109
Representative Carter. Can you give us some of the instances
of it ?
Mrs. DiETZ. Well, an instance came under my observation just
this fall. It was the case of a boy, William Zahn; he is a Sioux
boy. He is about 21, and he is over age for this school, according
to the rules, so he got special permission from the Indian Office, I
think, to come here. He came here with the view of studying
under Mr. Dietz, starting his career as an artist. He is rather
ambitious in that line. He had that understanding before he came
here, that he was to study drawing, and when he came here Mr. Fried-
man told him he could work under him. I remember the day that
Francis Zahn came to me and told me he was to work that day in
my department. Mr. Friedman took back his word when he started
in, and the boy had to go through a good deal of trials and punish-
ments because Mr. Friedman denied that he had given the boy
permission.
Representative Carter. Let me understand that, Mrs. Dietz.
The boy says that when he came here he came with the understand-
ing from Mr. Friedman that he was to study drawing and horticulture ?
Mrs. Dietz. No, just drawing.
Representative Carter. To study drawing. And he started to
work under you to begin with, to prepare him for the course which
Mr. Dietz was to give him ?
Mrs. Dietz. Yes.
Representative Carter. And then Mr. Friedman stopped him
from that, did he?
Mrs. Dietz. I don't know — he told me that he had the under-
standing with the Indian Office — he got special permission because
he was over age, and I do not know whether he had an understand-
ing with Mr. Friedman or not, but he come up with that under-
standing, and Mr. Friedman was willing to have him study his
whole time with us.
Representative Carter. Then when did Mr. Friedman object to
his studying ?
Mrs. Dietz. No; he gave him permission, but just verbal per-
mission, and when he was started in, thinking that that verbal
permission was enough from the superintendent, Mr. Friedman
denied that he had ever gave him permission.
Representative Carter. Did he ever try to to take him out of the
drawing department ?
Mrs. Dietz. Yes. He gave him just half a day, and I told him
to be satisfied with that. I kept him in my department on the
half -day work.
Representative Carter. Then the boy got a little refractory
because he thought he was not getting
Mrs. Dietz. No; he has been very patient about everything.
Representative Carter. But in spite of that, Mr. Friedman put
little punishments on him occasionally?
Mrs. Dietz. Yes; made it rather hard for him at times; but I
told him to just take whatever they put on him because that was the
only way that he could get along.
Representative Carter. The boy is still in the school ?
Mrs. Dietz. Yes.
1110 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Representative Carter. Is he still being disorimiiiated against
by Mr. Friedman now ?
Mrs. DiETZ. Well, I don't know. The boy is very quiet, and he
does not say very much. He has been punished for little things
Representative Carter. That other students were not punished
for?
Mrs. Dietz. They said he was loafing one day, and he was pun-
ished for that, but I did not inquire into that very deeply, because
that only came under the disciplinarian's part of it.
Representative Carter. Do you know of any other cases, Mrs.
Dietz, of discrimination ?
Mrs. Dietz. There was a boy that belonged to a cousin of mine out
West. He made the mistake of coming here — -I mean, he meant to go
to Hampton, and came here instead. When he got here he found
he had had all the work that the senior class of the school was doing,
and he wanted to go back, and Mr. Friedman told him he could go
back if he reimbursed the fare from Wimu^bago, Nebr., to Carlisle.
The boy's father was perfectly willing to reimburse the school for
the travel expense of the boy, and then Mr. Friedman changed his
mind again. He would not let the boy go, and the boy was kept on
here doing nothing, and after a while the boy got sullen, and it
kept on. and he was punished more or less. Finally, he went home
just two or three weeks ago.
Representative Carter. Wliat was his name?
Mrs. Dietz. Francis Lamere.
Representative Carter. You did not give us the girl's name either ?
Mrs. Dietz. — — — ■ ■— .
Representative Carter. That was your relative ?
Mrs. Dietz. Yes.
Representative Carter. Are these cases of discrimination that you
speak of, Mrs. Dietz, the rule ? Is that a common thing among
the children, or are these just exceptional cases?
Mrs. Dietz. There have been a good many complaints just on
that order, but I have not been around very much over there. The
complaint is general.
Representative Carter. What can you tell me, Mrs. Dietz, about
the food that is furnished the children ?
Mrs. Dietz. The food has been complained of a good deal. There
were times that the students, no matter how hungry they were,
could not eat the food that was placed before them. It was badly
cooked, and it was rather short.
Representative Carter. Do you go to the childrens' dining room
at any time ? The pupils' dining room ?
Mrs. Dietz. No, I have not been there very much.
Representative Carter. You do not know then specifically what
food they have to eat?
Mrs. Dietz. No.
Representative Carter. What can you tell us about boys drinking ?
Mrs. Dietz. The boys have told me they can get whisky any time
they want it. I asked them where they g(>t it, and they say they get
it in town from negroes.
Representative Carter. Has there b(H>n attempt, so far as you
know to prosecute these boot-leggers, these negroes, who furnish
whisky to the boys ?
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1111
Mrs. DiETZ. I do not think they have done that.
Representative Carter. But a great many of the boys have been
placed in the city jail for getting drunk, haven't they?
Mrs. DiETZ. I think they have, two cases that I know of. Twice,
I think.
Representative Carter. Mrs. Dietz, what is the attitude of the
children toward Mr. Friedman?
Mrs. Dietz. Why, they have no respect for him at all.
Representative Carter. What do you attribute that to, Mrs.
Dietz?
Mrs. Dietz. I tliink it is just his personal bearing toward the
students.
Representative Carter. Do you tliink he has any interest much
in the children ?
Mrs. Dietz. It does not seem to me that he has. He has not led
them as head of the school.
Representative Carter. Do you think he is very much interested
in or has any respect for an Indian?
Mrs. Dietz. I do not think so.
Representative Carter. Is there anything more you wanted
to say?
Mrs. Dietz. No, sir.
TESTIMONY OF LOUIS SCHWIEGMAN, FORMER STUDENT.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. Were you a student formerly at the Carhsle
school ?
Mr. ScHwiEGMAN. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. For how long?
Mr. ScHwiEGMAN. Three years.
The Chairman. Were you dismissed from the school?
Mr. ScHWiEGMAN. Ycs, sir.
The Chairman. For what were you dismissed?
Mr. ScHWiEGMAN. I Can not tell you exactly why I was expelled.
The Chairman. Tell me what you know about it.
Mr. Schwiegman. Well, sir, I attended school here three years.
Then last summer I went home, and in the fall I brought some stu-
dents back here with me, and Mr. Friedman wrote me and said I should
bring some students with me, and he would pay my fare here and
home again, providing I brought 12 students. So while I was home
last summer I got 14 of tliem, but of course they were turned down,
with the exception of 6, so I brought them along with me. Besides,
I intended to take up sign painting this year while I am back here.
Of course, the rest of the three years I was here I went to school half
a day and worked at the trade the other half day. I had to quit
school last spring on account of my eyes. They had released me
from school, so I did not intend to go to school, but I came back with
the intention of taking up sign painting, but after I came back the
painters were very busy, and I could not take it up right away, Mr.
Friedman tokl me.
So I was detailed over to the school building, and I told Mr. Fried-
man about this trade I wanted to take up, and he did not seem to
look into it right away. So I stayed over at the school building, and
1112 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
worked over there for Mr. Whitwell. Finally, here just lately, he
knew I was working down there, and he said I sliould be up to the
shop working at my trade, so then he sent me up there, and I stayed
up there for about three weeks. I was taldng up the trade as a sign
painter.
One day I was called up to the office, and he told me tlien T had to
leave the grounds. He said he did not want me around here, that I
was loafing; he said I was just simply wasting my time here.
The Chairman. So you were discharged ?
Mr. ScHwiEGMAN. Ycs, sir. He never even gave me any warning
beforehand.
The Chairman. Have you seen Mr. McKean since you came back
here to testify before the commission?
Mr. ScHwiEGMAN. Ycs; I saw him.
The Chairman. Did he give you notice of the fact that the superin-
tendent had ordered you from the grounds.
Mr. ScHwiEGMAN. He did not, but the assistant disciplinarian
told me this morning.
The Chairman. Did you tell him that you wanted to appear before
the joint commission ?
Mr. Schwiegman. Yes, sir; I told him I would like to be here this
morning, as I saw Mi\ Linnen yesterday morning.
Representative Stephens. Who ordered you off the grounds?
Ml'. Schwiegman. ]\Ir. Friedman.
The Chairman. Just put this letter in the record.
(The letter referred to is as follows:)
February 6, 1914.
Mr. McKean: It has been reported to me that Louis Schwiegman, a boy that was
not permitted to remain at the school as being undesirable, was on the campus last
evening and slept in the quarters, leaving early this morning. This is decidedly
against the best interests of discipline here, and its repetition should not be permitted.
Very respectfully,
M. Friedman,
Superintendent.
Representative Stephens. Did some of his employees order you
off the grounds yesterday or to-day?
Mr. Schwiegman. No; that was the first time. The letter was read
to me this morning.
The Chairman. Have you been disturbed in your position by any
representative of the school here — where are you working now ?
Mr. Schwiegman. At Grayson, just above Carlisle here 6 miles.
The Chairman. Have you been disturbed any way? Did anybody
try to get you fired ?
Mr. Schwiegman. No one has so far.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LYDIA E. KAUP, NORMAL TEACHER.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairm'an.
The Chairman. In what capacity are you employed at Carlisle,.
Mis. Kaup?
^frs. Kaup. Normal teacher.
Tlic Chairman. How long have you been working in that capacity ?
Mrs. Kaup. As normal teacher, I think, 4 or 5 years. I am not
qui e srrc. I think this is my fifth term, or fourth, but I was a teacher
in the crrades before.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1113
The Chairman. What are the relations between Superintendent
Friedman and the pupils in the school?
Mrs. Kaup. Well, I do not know so much about that, but I am
afraid they are not very good.
The Chairman. Do you know how he is looked upon by the em-
ployees in the school?
Mrs. Kaup. By some, I suppose, all right ; and by some he is not.
The Chairman. Would you say that the relations between the
supermtendent and the employees generally speaking are amicable
or otherwise ?
M\ Kaup. Otherwise.
The Chairman. What is that due to?
Mrs. Kaup, I think to his insolence to us.
The Chairman. Is he disagreeable at times ?
Mrs. Kaup. Yes.
The Chairman. How many pupils have you in your department?
Mrs. Kaup. I have, since last September, enrolled 141; but some
went to the country, some ran away, and I promoted a few, and I have
now 115, I think.
The Chairman. What progress is being made in the normal depart-
ment ? If it is not satisfactory, tell me briefly why you think it is
not so.
Mrs. Kaup. Why, the crowd is too big. I have too many. The
pupils that come to my department are the beginners. Some are
adults; and this year they brought in quite a number of small ones,
and they are just a class of pupils without any individual attention,
and the crowd is too large. I have six girls that are pupil teachers,
and I am supposed to train those, and they are to have classes. The
understanding is that each pupil teacher shall have about six, and then
I am to oversee and give them training. There was a time when there
was an assistant, but that was abolished before I took the position.
It so happens that the number is so big that I have 53 pupils of my
own that I teach, and they are of three different grades. That makes
the work harder, too. I have five grades, so that makes a great deal
of planning. • I have 53 of my ow^n, and then I am obliged to give the
pupil teachers my pupils, those they ought to have. Two of my most
advanced pupils, those I have had two years — one is 16 and the other
is 13. They need so much individual attention that I am not able to
give the pupil teachers the same attention that I ouo;ht to give. I
have what I call observation lessons. I keep the whole school in the
room, and I give a drill lesson for the pupil teachers to observe. They
must be present. Then what little time I have I oversee the work,
and I try to keep in touch with it. For example, when I have third-
grade pupils, I have to give to two of the pupil teachers third pupils.
Then I keep in touch with that. I consult with them and explain
to them how to handle the lesson. If I think it is something special,
I call the pupils out and give the thill in my room, and then I require
them to hand in a program every day.
When they are excused the girls have so little time. There was a
time when the normal teacher was allowed a half hour each session to
consult with her pupil teachers on methods, but when the whistle
blows the girls must go. Once in a while I just keep them a little and
give them some extra training. I get my class started, and take the
pupil teachers, and give them instructions. But I can not look after
1114 CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
them, because I have too many of my own. I can not look after them
as I would like to. The worst is the scholars are getting rid of the
attention they ought to have. There are too many that need indi-
vidual attention. Some of them when they come can not understand
a word of English, and they especially need attention.
The Chairman. How does the discipline now prevailing compare
with what it formerly was ?
Mrs. Kaup. It is very good to what it was.
The Chairman. When did it begin to improve ?
Mrs. Kaup. Since last September, about.
The Chairman. It is very much better now than it was up to last
September ?
Mrs. Kaup. Yes.
The Chairman. What is the cause of that improvement; do you
know?
Mrs. Kaup. No; I could not tell, unless they have made stricter
rules.
The Chairman. How does the discipline compare under Mr. Fried-
man's administration with that of other administrations you have
known here ?
Mrs. Kaup. I came here just shortly before Mr. Friedman came.
Well, I think it was — I know it was better before.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM H. MILLER, FINANCIAL CLERK.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. What employment have you now, Mr. Miller ?
Mr. Miller. My official position is that of financial clerk.
The Chairman. At the Carlisle School ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. As such clerk do you keep the records of the ath-
letic association?
Mr. Miller. I do.
The Chairman. What is that association? Is it a corporation?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; it is a corporation, consisting of tl>e employees
and the pupils who are entitled to wear the ''C."
The Chairman. How many are there?
Mr. Miller. I do not know. I do not know what the requirements
arc.
The Chairman. Do you know any pupils who are members of the
corporation ?
Mr. Miller. Practically all the players, I think, are.
The Chairman. Who are the officer.-; of the corporation?
Mr. Miller. The officers are Mr. Warner, president; myself, as
secretary and treasurer; we two together with Mr. Friedman compose
the executive committee.
The Chairman. The atliletic association is kept separate and apart
from the school, I believe, in a way?
Mr. ]\[iller. Yes, sir; that is, the accounts.
The Chairman. That is what I moan.
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How are the accounts kept and what records do
you keep ?
CARLISLE INDL\]Sr SCHOOL. 1115
Mr. Miller. I keep them in regular ledj^er form. This is the
ledger.
The Chairman. How long hare you been kee})ing this account?
Mr. Miller. Since February 9, 1907.
The Chairman. You do all the work on the books yourself ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You have made all the entries in th(» ledger since
that time?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Just explain brief!}' how you keej) the accounts of
receipts and expenditures.
Mr. Miller (indicating). Credits are taken up in this column, the
gains on the righthand side here; and the expenditures are \\Titten in
here on the lefthand side, all by check. There is nothing paid out
except by check. Those are the check numbers, and this is the payee's
name that appears here.
The Chairman. And the checks are your vouchers?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You use them as receipts, of course ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. In most cases we have receipted bills in
addition to the checks.
The Chairman. You take itemized accounts ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. So as to show what enters into the expenditure as
indicated by the check?
Mr. Miller. That is it.
The Chairman. Where do you keep your account? In a bank?
Mr. Miller. In the Farmers Trust Company, Carlisle.
The Chairman. What are the sources of income to this fund ? How
is the fund obtained ?
Mr. Miller. The main source is the proceeds derived from the
games — football games, and lacrosse and basketball.
The Chairman. How do your annual accounts run ? From what
dates ? Do you run by the calendar or by the school year ?
Mr. Miller. Neither. It all just runs ri^ht along.
The Chairman. When do you strike a balance ?
Mr. Miller. At the end of each month I strike a balance, and the
balance is certified to by an auditor. Well, the committee is com-
posed of Mr. Ray, Mr. Warner, and Mr. Friedman, but recently it has
dwindled down to Mr. Ray, an attorney of Carlisle, who audits my
accounts monthly and certifies the fact on my ledger.
The Chairman. Does Mr. Ray render any other services as attor-
ney other than services as auditor?
Mr. Miller. He did during the incorporation.
The Chairman. I mean since the association was organized.
Mr, Miller. No, sir.
The Chairman. What is he paid ?
Mr. Miller. $100 a year.
The Chairman. Quarterly ?
Mr. Miller. $25 quarterly.
The Chairman. What does he do ? What does his work consist of ?
Mr. Miller. Sinv[)ly verifying my accounts.
The Chairman. I know, but how does he verify them?
1116 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. Miller. He takes the statements we get from the games,
verifies the receipts and other moneys that are taken up. There are
other minor entries, such as trunks that are purchased from this fund
and kept in the storehouse and sold. That money comes back.
And at one time umbrellas for the pupils were handled that way.
He verifies all the receipts and takes the cancelled checks' and checks
them off, and obtains the outstanding checks each month and com-
pares my balance with the bank balance.
The Chairman. He does that every month?
Mr. Miller. He does that each month.
The Chairman. What day of the month does he usually do that ?
Mr. Miller. As soon as I have the accounts ready for him, usually
within two or three days after the close of the month.
The Chairman. How long does it require him to do it ?
Mr. Miller. I should say not more than an hour.
The Chairman. He comes out to your office, or do you take your
books to him ?
Mr. Miller. He comes here.
The Chairman. What was the total income from the games —
football, basketball, and other sports — chargeable to the athletic
fund for the year 1913 ? Can you tell me that?
Mr. Miller. Not exactly. I could approximately.
The Chairman. The book would show ?
Mr. Miller. The book will show, certainly; yes, sir.
The Chairman. What do you thmk it would amount to ?
Mr. Miller. I should say between $20,000 and $25,000.
The Chairman. For the year 1913?
Mr. Miller. Yes, su\
The Chairman. What charges are paid out of this fund ? How
are the expenditures governed ? Who regulates what shall be paid
out of it?
Mr. Miller. Anything except transportation charges or anything
that Mr. Warner looks after^ — the others usually come to the super-
intendent, who passes on them, and I write the check, and Mr. Warner
signing it, that gives the apj>roval of all three members of the execu-
tive committee.
The Chairman. Do you yourself sign checks ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; as treasurer, and Mr. Warner as president.
The Chairman. He countersigns them as presid nt?
Mr. Miller. We both sign them; yes, sir.
The Chairman. The supermtendent O. K.'s the accounts or bills?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And you draw the checks, and the coach — what is
his official positii^n ?
Ml'. Miller. He is the coach, tlie atliletic director.
The Chairman. The athletic director countersigns the checks.
How have the ex])enditures been running with reference to the
income of the fund ? They have a balance each year?
Mr. Miller. Oh, yes; they have had a balance each year, excepthig
one year I recall we ran short when there was a thousand dollars
advanced by Mr. Warner and Mr. 1 riedman. Just now tliere is a
surj)his of $25,000.
Th^. Chairman, "i'ou liave prockiced here and ])resented to the
comniiijsion what appears to hi' stub check books, numbca-ed from
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL, 1117
1 to 7, inclusive. These books appear to be the stu])s of the checks
you have drawn
Mr. Miller. Drawn since the date I have given.
The Chairman. Since you first became treasurer?
Mr. Miller. Well, I was treasurer of this fund before this date,
but it was not kept m this way. The funds were kept in another
The Chairman. From what date is this ?
Mr. Miller. This date is from 1907, February 9.
The Chairman. So that for every expenditure you have made you
have the checks paid and also the stub of the check ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And in many instances you itemized statements of
account ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. So that you can tell what payments were made
for any month, to whom they were made, and for what ?
Mr. Miller. In every instance; yes, sir.
The Chairman. Running over some of these accounts, I want to
ask you about some of the expenditures. Who is Mr. Hugh Miller?
]Mr. Miller. He is an attorney m Carlisle whose maui work is that
of newspaper reporting.
The Chairman. I see here under date of January, 1908, a check,
No. 552, ''Camera, S140.68, for Mr. Miller." Was that a movmg
picture camera ?
Mr. Miller, No, su'. It was a camera that was purchased for him
to take pictures of games. It was a large box camera.
The Chairman. Then under the same date, Januarv, 1908, check
No. 578
Representative Carter. Where is that camera now ?
Mr. Miller. In his possession. He always has had it.
Representative Carter. Is he a member of the association ?
Mr. Miller. He is not. He is a newspaper man.
The Chairman. I see also a check, No. 578, to Hugh Miller, $100,
and No. 579
Mr. Miller. No. 578 is Shoemaker, isn't it?
The Chairman. Well, 580 was to whom ?
Mr. Miller. To Wallace Denny.
The Chairman. No. 578 was to Hugh Miller?
Mr. Miller. Oh; to Dr. Shoemaker for additional services.
The Chairman. Who is Mr. G. M. Diffenderfer ?
Mr. Miller. I would like to explain in regard to that $100 in favor
of myself, if there is any exception to it.
The Chairman. I do not know that there is any exception to it.
While attention has been called to it, we have not raised any question
about it.
Mr. Miller. That came about this way: During Gen. Pratt's time
he came in the office one day and told me lie was going to pay me
$100 additional salary for athletic services. I had practically written
the history of the Carlisle School in a card system. If you wanted to
find a pupil's record you had to refer to probably 100 (lifl'erent places
throughout the book. I decided to put in a card system and arrange
the cards by tribes for pupils no longer connected with the school,
and those that were I arranged alphabetically. The old general appre-
ciated that very much, and he gave me $100 additional that year.
1118 • CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The next year, rather than have me fall down, lie paid it again. In
both cases it was paid from the charity fund, or emergency fund,
and thereafter each year I received that amount until those funds
were abohshed, and then from this fund. It was always considered
a part of the salary.
The Chairman. Why was it paid out of the athletic funds?
Mr. Miller. Because those other fimds had gone out of existence.
The Chairman. The athletic fund, as a matter of fact, is a kind
of
Mr. Miller. A cure for all diseases.
The Chairman. A good many things are paid out of the athletic
fund that have no relation to athletics ?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
The Chairman. In that connection, what other items do you know
of that are payable out of the athletic fund that are not directly con-
nected with athletics ? Do you pay any employees who are also
receiving Government salaries?
Mr. Miller. Yes; that item just above these to Dr. Shoemaker.
That was for his services in accompanying the teams, as I understood
it.
The Chairman. If he accompanied the teams on their expeditions,
that might be considered directly connected wdth the athletic work.
Do you pay Mrs. E. II. Foster?
Mr. Miller. Recently? Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How much does she receive ?
Mr. Miller. She gets $15 per month for looking after the Y. W.
C. A. work. I do not know her salary. She is a teacher.
The Chairman. Mr. R. L. Mann is another, I beheve, who is a
teacher, and he receives $15 a month?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir, he was paid up until last fall.
The Chairman. Has that been discontinued ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Why?
Mr. Miller. I believe he was relieved from the work. He had
charge of the Y. M. C. A. work.
The Chairman. You receive a salary as financial clerk, and in
addition to that you receive from the athletic fund $35 a month for
keeping these accounts ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Dietz receives a salary, too, as Indian art
assistant, and gets a salary as assistant coach, does he not?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; he does.
The Chairman. How much does he get as assistant coach ?
Mr. Miller. I really do not know the amount, unless you have
made a note of it there.
Inspector Linnen. About $500 each year.
Mr. Miller. I think that is it.
The Chairman. I asked you a moiiK'nt ago about the item for
Mr. l)iflVnd(M-f(r. January 8 he appears to have received $20 salary.
Wli at is that for?
Mr. Miller. At that time he had charge of the afternoon services
in tlie chapel.
The Chairman. Is he a minister?
Mr. Miller. He was a Lutheran minister in town.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1119
The Chairman. Wliat salary was paid him ?
Mr. Miller. Ho got $5 for each service — $5 a Sunday. Since that
time it has been divided up among all the ministers of the town, and
they get $5 per service.
The Chairman. How many ministers have been paid for that
service ?
Mr. Miller. I believe all of them. All the ministers in town
take their turn at taking charge, .
The Chairman. Why is that?
Mr. Miller. I could not say, sir.
The Chairman. You have nothing to do with that ? Who makes
that arrangement ?
Mr. Miller. The superintendent.
The Chairman. An arrangement is made, then, that every minis-
ter in town gets an afternoon in his turn, for which he receives $5
for his services ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Who did j^ou say Hugh Miller is ? Is he ixdated
to you ?
Mr. Miller. He is not related to me.
The Chairman. He is in the newspaper business ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is he on a local newspaper ?
Mr. Miller. I think not.
The Chairman. Is he a correspondent for papers ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. He appears to have received generally $200 a
year during the last two or three years for services. What kind of
services does he render?
Mr. Miller. Nothing more than sending out reports about the
games.
The Chairman. Look at the check No. 1183, January 2, 1909.
It appears he received $50 at that time. What was that for?
Mr. Miller. I do not recall that item. Here is my record. I
did not know at that time, and I do not know yet.
The Chairman. I see you have an interrogation mark there on
that stub under date of January 2, 1909. What does that mean?
Mr. Miller. I do not know what it was for.
The Chairman. You were not furnished information at the time
as to what it was for, and you made that memorandum ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You do not know what it was for?
Mr. Miller. No, sir.
The Chairman. By check No. 2112, under date of September 19,
1910, it appears that Hugh Miller received $100 for advertising.
Mr. Miller. It is probably for the same purpose.
The Chairman. You mean for sending out news ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now, by check No. 2231, October 31, 1910— —
Mr. Miller. On No. 2112 the stub is marked, "Advance on account
of advertising."
The Chairman. What other advertising did the team do ?
Mr. Miller. Now, there were several games that he advertised and
got a percentage from the game. I do not recall that this was just
1120 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
one of those occasions or not. It probably was, on account of being
marked here "account of advertising."
The Chairman. Do you know what he did ?
Mr. Miller. He passed bills about town and had placards printed,
etc.
The Chairman. Now, turn to check No. 22.31, October .31, 1910.
The total of that check was $1,509.22.
Mr. Miller. That is in my favor. I had charge of a game that
was played at Wilkes-Barre, and this is reimbursement for my ex-
penses there. In other words, that is the total expenses that I paid
out, and this is reimbursing me.
The Chairman. Mr. Miller did not get any of that ?
Mr. Miller. No, sir; I personally received nothing.
Inspector Linnen. Your bills sliow that Mr. Miller got $300 of
that.
The Chairman. You have an itemized bill of that expenditure,
and you say now that Mr. Miller received $300 ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. I recall that now.
The Chairman. Now, bv check No. 2215, under date of October 29,
1910, I find another item of $295.65. What is that for?
Mr. Miller. I believe that is the balance on the same account,
'settlement in full.
The Chairman. Was that for one game?
Mr. Miller. I believe it was, to the best of my recollection.
The Chairman. Now, by check No. 2812, 1-6-1912, I find another
item of $150 to Hugh R. Miller for services.
Mr. Miller. That was not in connection with any special game.
It .was the amount paid him for the season's work. The check
following it
The Chairman. What work did he do during the season? That is
what I want.
Mr. Miller. I think that was simply newspaper work, without
anything special.
The Chairman. What kind of work? Can you inform us about
what he is expected to do ?
Mr. Miller. I do not know what he was requested to do, if that
is what you mean. All I know that he did was to send out matter
for the papers that he represents.
The Chairman. That was published as news, was it not, as a matter
of fact ?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
The Chairman. What association did he represent? Does he
represent the Associated Press? Does he represent the Scripps-
McRae ?
Mr. IMiLLER. I do not know. I was informed that he corresponded
with probably as many as 200 papers, but whether that is true or not
I could not say.
The Chairman. The probability is that he would represent an
association of newspapers, and what I am trying to find out is what
association it is.
Mr. Miller. I do not know.
The Chairman. Who is Mr. J. L. Martin?
Mr. Miller. That was his assistant at that time.
CARLISLE INDL\N SCHOOL. 1121
The Chairman. I find by chock No. 2813 under the same date as
the last check mentioned to Mr. Miller, Mr. Marthi was paid $150.
What was that for ?
Mi-. Miller. That was the same class of work, he being Mr. Mil-
ler's assistant.
The Chairman. By check No. 317-i, dated December 3, 1912, it
appears that Mr. Miller received $150 as correspondent. Is that the
same kind of work ?
Ml'. Miller. The same thmg.
The Chairman. And under the same date, by check No. 3175
you paid Mr. J. L. Martin, as correspondent, $150.
Ml-. Miller. The same thing.
The Chairman. Do you know anything about how those accounts,
the correctness of those accounts, is arrived at? How are the
amounts determmed ?
Mr. Miller. I do not know.
The Chairman. Do you know whether he is on a salary — who
o.k.'s these accounts?
Mr. Miller. The supermtendent o.k.'s them.
The Chairman. Now, by check No. 3571 under date of November
2, 1913, there is an item of $200 to Hugh R. Miller, of which $100
went to Mi\ Miller and $100 to Mr. Martin.
Mr. Miller. That is the same thing.
The Chairman. Then by check No. 3578, 12-2-13, there appears
to have been another check issued to the same Mi\ Miller for $100.
Ml-. Miller. That was the same thing. The $200 and the $100
taken together made the $300 for that year.
The Chairman. Now, let us look at some items of this account
I hat relate to Mi-. Friedman, the superintendent. Check No. 1181,
under date of January 20, 1909, appears to have been issued to Mr.
Friedman for expenses to Washington, m the sum of $70.90.
On what theory were the expenses of the superintendent paid to
Washington paid out of the athletic fund ?
Ml-. Miller. It was paid at his request, he submitting a bill for that
amount.
The Chairman. What I am trying to find out is why he re(juired
you to pay that out of the athletic fund. What was he doing in
Washmgton for the atliletic association ? What was his rule about
that, if you know whether he had a rule, Mr. Miller ? Maybe you can
explain the whole thing by a general statement. I see here a great
many items of expense for Mr. Friedman to Washington charged to
the athletic fund and paid out of it. Now, if you can make a general
statement as to the theory upon which that was done, I would be
glad.
Mr. Miller. I could not tell that.
The Chairman. You do not undertake to pass on that?
Mr. Miller. No, sir; he submitted the statements and I wrote the
check.
The Chairman. Without c(uestion ?
Mr. Miller. Without question, and Mr. Warner signed them.
Representative Stephens. Who O. K'd the statements?
Mr. Miller. Mr. Friedman. I attach a little slip to the bills, re-
questing autliority to pay them, and he signs those slips. I have
35601— PT 11—14 11
1122 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
those slips in all cases on those bills, which are kept on a Shannon file
in numerical order.
The Chairman. Further than that you were not charged with the
duty of auditing his accounts ?
Mr. Miller. Oh, no.
The Chairman. He audited his owTi accounts?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now, I find check No. 1534, under date of Sep-
tember 4, 1909, expenses to Washington, $16.
Mr. Miller. That is marked, "Expenses to Washington, $16."
The Chairman. I am going to call your attention to a large number
of items of the same character, and you may verify them all at once.
Check No. 1633, October 28, 1909, expenses to Washington, $87.
That is correct, is it?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Then, check No. 1806, January 29, 1910, expenses
to Washington, $27.
Mr. Miller. Right.
The Chairman. Check No. 2001, May 24, 1910, expenses to Hamp-
ton, $16.
Mr. Miller. Hampton and Tuskegee Institute, $16. Right.
The Chairman. Check No. 2016, January 28, 1910, expenses to
Philadelphia, Pa., $17.
Mr. Miller. Right.
The Chairman. Mileage books, $40.
Mr. Miller. What date is that ?
The Chairman. It appears here.
Mr. Miller. That is for $17. That is right. At the close of each
month I pay the bill to the Cumberland Valley Raihoad Co., and the
mileage books are included in that.
The Chairman. Do you know wliat amount of mileage books you
bought for Mr. Friedman ?
Mr. Miller. Not exactly. There are eight.
Inspector Linnen. There are a lot more besides those.
The Chairman. Just give the dates.
Mr. Miller. March 3, 1910, one book, $20; July 15, 1910, one
book, $20; October 23, 1911, one book, $20; July 31, 1911, one book;
September 11, 1912, one book; September 21, 1912, one book; June
25, 1913, one book; November 14, 1913, one book.
The Chairman. A memorandum furnished me here is a receipt
under date of February 19, 1910, "To one mileage book, No. 125135,
to Superintendent Friedman, $20." That is correct, is it?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now, I also hold in my hand a receipt under date
of July 31, 1911, "one mileage ticket (Mr. Friedman), $20; Cum-
berland VaUey Railroad." Is that correct too ?
Mr. Miller. That is one we just mentioned. That is correct.
The Chairman. I also hold a receipt under date of October 23,
1911, "mileage ticket for Mr. Friedman, $20." That has also been
mentioned and is correct ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chahiman. Under date of September 11, 1912, "one mileage
ticket, Mr. Friedman, $20; Cimiberland Valley Railroad." That,
too, has been mentioned, I believe, and is correct ?
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL, 11 23
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Under date of June 25. 1913, "mileage ticket fop
Mr. Friedman, $20." That is correct, is it?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Under date of November 14, 1918, "mileage
ticket for Mr. Friedman." with others in the same receipt, S20. That
is correct, is it ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Have you assisted and cooperated with Inspector
Linnen in checking up these mileage accounts charged to the athletic
association on account of Mr. Friedman ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You have also assisted him, 1 believe, in checking
up his accounts of expenses and expenditures as superintendent of
the school, have you not?
Mr. Miller. Government vouchers ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Have you also gone through the accounts in the
office of the auditor of the Cumberland Valley Raih'oad and checked
the items there with reference to trips made by Mr. Friedman to
ascertain what mileage was in fact used in connection with his
accounts as superintendent and special disbursing agent?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. Both the Cumberland Valley and the
Penns3^1vania.
The Chairman. Is it true or not that your investigation as stated
disclosed that Mr. Friedman was furnished wdth these mileage books
and used them on these trips to Washington, and at the same time
charged the expenses as raih'oad fare in liis accounts as superintend-
ent against the Government?
Mr. Miller. Some of them.
The Chairman. Which ones?
Mr. Miller. Mileage books Nos. 125135, 125300
The Chairman. Now, will you mark them? There are only
three
Mr. Miller (continuing). And 923319, I beheve
The Chairman. Let us make sure of that.
Mr. Miller. I have made a memorandum now, and can give it to
you: 125135. 125300, 923319.
The Chairman. Just take your memorandum there and state what
you checked with reference to those mileage books and what the books
in the office of the auditor of the Cumberland Valley Railroad and the
Pennsylvania Railroad disclosed \\ith reference to those charges.
Mr. Miller. Book No. 125300 was used on Cumberland Valley
train 13, March 5, 1910, Harrisburg.
Allow me to start again: Book No. 125135, used on train No. 4,
March 3, 1910, Conductor McCleary, Carfisle to Harrisburg, 38 miles,
two passengers.
Book No. 125300, used on train No. 13, ^March 5, 1910, Harrisburg
to Carfisle, 38 miles, fifted, two passengers. Conductor Snodgrass.
Book No. 125300, train No. 4, Marcli 17, 1910, Carlisle to Harris-
burg, Conductor Lynn, 19 miles, lifted, one passenger.
Book No. 125300, train No. 1 1 , March 18, 1910, Harrisburg to Car-
fisle, number of passengers 1, mileage 19, Conductor Wetzel.
1124 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mileage book 923319, train No. 8, October 23, 1911, Carlisle to Har-
risburg, two passengers, mileage 38, Conductor Lynn.
Over the Pennsylvania Railroad I found the following, upon
checking the auditor's accounts: Mileage book 125135, March 3,
1910, train No. 64, Conductor W. D. Schubert, Harrisburg to Phila-
delphia, two passengers, 196 miles; beginning 805, ending 1,000.
Book No. 125300, same date, train, conductor, and points, 12
miles; beginning 1, ending 12.
Book No. 125300, March 3, 1910, train No. 124, Conductor C. W.
Parks, Philadelphia to New York, two passengers, number of miles
180; beginning 13, ending 192.
Book 125300, March 5, 1910, train No. 7; A. L. Priser, conductor;
betw^een New York and Philadelphia, two passengers, 180 miles;
mileage beginning 193, ending 372.
Same book, 125300, March 25, 1910, train 27, Conductor H. W.
Harding, Philadelphia to Harrisburg, two passengers, number of
miles 208; beginning 373, ending 580.
Same book, 125300, March 17, 1910, train No. 20, Conductor A. B.
Wherley, Harrisburg to Baltimore, one passenger, 84 miles; mileage,
638 721
Same book, 125300, March 17, 1910, train 321, Conductor C. T.
Sparks, Harrisburg to Washington, one passenger, 40 miles; mileage
722 to 761.
Same book, 125300, March IS, 1910, train 320, Conductor J. W.
Smith, Washington to Baltimore, one passenger, 40 miles; 762 to 801.
Same book, 125300, March 18, 1910, train 21, Conductor J. H. Mill-
stead, Baltimore to Harrisburg, one passenger, 84 miles; 802 to 885.
Mileage book 923319, October 23, 1911, train No. 8, Conductor J. B.
Hunt, Harrisburg to Baltimore, two passengers, 168 miles; beginning
38, ending 206.
Same book, 923319, October 23, 1911, train No. 11, Conductor B. F.
Dennis, Baltimore to Washington, two passengers, 80 miles; mileage
120 to 206.
The Chairman. Then it appears from the records in the office of
the auditors of these two railror.d-^ vrd the authenticated copies of the
accounts of Mr. Friedman as superintendent and special disbursing
agent of the Indian Industrial School, that on these occasions and
trains, while the mileage books which are paid for out of the athletic
fund w^ere actually used, he also charged the Government in his
expense account for his railroad fare?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I have a memorandum in my hand showing other
expense items paid to Mr. Friedman from the athletic fund, which I
am informed you have checked on your books. Check No. 2615, July
11, 191 1, expenses to New York, .S22. Is that correct?
Mr. Miller. Right.
The Chairman. Check No. 2622, July 28, same year, expenses to
Washington, 117.
Mr. Miller. Right.
The Chairman. Check No. 2747, November 20, 1911, expenses to
Philadelphia, Pa., $55.
Mr. Miller. Right.
The Chairman. Check No. 2800, July 26, 1911, expenses to Boston,
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1125
Mr. Miller. Right.
The Chairman. Check No. 2848, January 27, 1912, expenses to
Washmgton, S42.2().
Air. Miller. Right.
The Chairman. Check No. 3138, November 14, 1912, expenses to
Washington, $75.65.
Mr. Miller. Right.
The Chairman. ^Check No. 2929, April 9, 1912, expenses, $58.60.
What was that for ?
Mr. AIiller. My memorandum is marked ''expenses."
The Chairman. Do you know whom it was paid to?
Mr. Miller. To Mr. "Friedman.
The Chairman. Do you know what it is for? Have you an
itemized statement of that?
Mr. Miller. I may have; I hn.^^e not here.
The Chairman. When you go back to the office, wiU you take a
little time and look for that?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Check No. 3138, November 14, 1912, expenses to
Washhigton, $75.65. That is correct, is it?
Mr. Miller. Correct.
The Chairman. Check No. 3130, November 15, 1912, expenses to
Philadelpliia, Pa., $69.20.
"Sir. Miller. Not paid to Mr. Friedman direct, but to Bellevue-
Stratford Hotel.
The Chairman. Was there an item in there of $10 for theater?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I notice another memorandum there, additional
expenses to Philadelphia, Pa., $22, in the same account.
Mr. Miller. That is right.
The Chairman. Check No. 3508, October 4, 1913, hotel bill at
Philadelphia, Friedman, $54.05.
Mr. Miller. Right.
The Chairman. The face of those checks would not show the actual
dates he was in Washington ?
Mr. Miller. The bill shows.
The Chairman. Turn to check No. 3311, April 9, 1913, $102.70.
What was that for ?
Mr. Miller. That check book is in my office.
The Chairman. Look at the memorandum there and see if you can
tell.
Mr. Miller. That was for entertaining guests during commence-
ment.
The (^HAiRMAN. By whom ?
Mr. Miller. By Mr. Friedman.
The Chairman. Was there an itemized statement of that presented ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Will you furnish that ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I find five checks as follows: No. 1499 — maybe
you can just tell from this— No. 1499, August 31, 1909, $90. No.
1533. September 2, 1909. $60. No. 3025, August 10, 1910. $60.
No. 3028, August 10, 1912, $60. No. 3188, December 9, 1912, $7.20.
What were all those checks issued for ?
1126 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. Miller. For the purpose of insurance on the buildings.
The Chairman. What buikhngs ?
Ml". Miller. The athletic buildings.
The Chairman. The Government does not carry any insurance
on the buildings, I believe ?
Mr. Miller. I could not say.
The Chairman. Would it not be paid for through you?
Mr. Miller. Mr. Warner keeps the accounts.
The Chairman. That is on the athletic buildings ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; I think it is all on the athletic buildings.
The Chairman. I find a number of items of S2 for the arrest of
each Indian boy or pupil found in Carlisle ^\■ithout a pass, paid to the
chief of police John L. Boyer, who appears to have received various
checks aggregating quite an amount for such arrests. Is there an
arrangement whereby the athletic fund is required to pay $2 for every
boy an ested ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; when the boys have no money in the bank.
The Chairman. Do you know upon what theory that is done?
Mr. Miller. To prevent the bo3^s going into town without a permit.
The Chairman. Why should all that be charged to the atliletic
fund, if you know of any reason ?
Mr. Miller. I think I do. The police would not be interested in de-
taining the boy if they received S2 sometimes and not on every occa-
sion. When a boy has no mone}" in the bank the police would be out
the cost of the arrest; so the atliletic association is called upon to pay
it when the boys have no money in the bank.
The Chairman. How is the amount of $2 arrived at as proper?
Mr. Miller. I could not say.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact they do not get anything like
that when they arrest on a warrant, do they? I do not know what
the statutes of Pennsylvania are, but in many of the States with whose
statutes I am familiar the fees of sheriffs for making an arrest would not
be anything like that. Anyway, that is just an arbitrary arrange-
ment that the superintendent has effected with the chief of police,
and is designed to keep the boys in and prevent them from stealing
away ?
Mt. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Have loans m- advances been made to boys on the
football teams at vaiious times?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. $200 appears to have been advanced to Albert
Exendine.
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And $300 to Louis Tewanana, and also $50 ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. There are other items of that kind.
Mr. ^[iLLER. Y(>s, sir.
The Chairman. Are those loans or advances lepaid, or in the nature
of a bonus ?
Mr. Miller. Those were not repaid.
The Chairman. How did you pay them out — upon what authority ?
You do not just voluntarily make the payments, I assume. I will say
in this connection that your books show very clearly indeed, even to
a man who is not an expert accountant.
CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1127
Mr. Miller. They are authorized by the superintendent, and, as
I said before, the bills are approved by the president and by signing
the check.
The Chairman. Have you checked up to see how much was paid
to the football boys m 1908 ?
Mr. Miller. I have.
The Chairman. It appears from the memorandum furnished me
that on December 10, 1908, the total amount paid on this account
was .$4,283.
]VIr. Miller. That was the amount of the check.
The Chairman. That was to pay football boys, was it ?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
The Chairman. I find also by check No. 508, December 4, there
is an item of $3,667.63. What account was that paid from, and
what was it for ?
Mr. Miller. From the athletic account, and for the boys.
The Chairman. For the football boys ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What other advances in the nature of bonuses are
usually made to the football boys ? What other allowances ?
^'Ir. Miller. Since the practice of paying the money was abolished,
they have been allowed an overcoat and a suit of clothing each year.
The Chairman. And that is paid out of the athletic fund ?
Mr. Miller. They are given orders on the merchants of town to
secure this clothing, and the bills are paid from this fund. The
boys get no money.
The Chairman. It appears that by check No. 1051, November 21,
1908, an item of $15 was paid to the Postal Telegraph Co. What
was that for ?
Mr. Miller. For election returns.
The Chairman. I believe the business department and the
academic buildings were constructed out of the athletic funds, or do
you know ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; I tliink the most of it.
The Chairman. That cost approximately $7,000, didn't it?
Mr. Miller. Those were Mi". Warner's estimates.
The Chairman. The material for the building was paid for out
of the athletic fund, and the work done by the Government ?
Mi\ Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I see a check here. No. 3394, June 25, 1913, to
George Walker, sheriff, and another
Mr. Miller. One moment.
The Chairman. George Walker, sheriff, $10. What was that for?
Mr. Miller. That was for arresting a girl in Chambersburg, as I
recall.
The Chairman. Have you an itemized statement of that?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Will you get that for me if it is not too much
trouble, please ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now, I see another check. No. 3407, H. J. Bentley,
detective, $10. Do you know what that was for?
1128 CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; that was for his services in trying to appre-
hend boys who were absent from the school without leave ; boys who
were meeting town girls out by the fair grounds.
The Chairman. Now, I find among these checks, a number of items
for clippings. For instance, check No. 3476, October 6, 1913, clip-
pings, $30. What does that mean?
Mr. Miller. Clipping from the Luces Press, for the superintend-
ent.
The Chairman. From the athletic fund?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. I believe the clippings were for anything
pertainmg to the school or the superintendent.
The Chairman. I find another check numbered 2854, February 5,
1912, Argus Press, clippings, S52.35. Do you know what that was for ?
Mr. Miller. For the same purpose.
The Chairman. And another, No. 2888, dated February 26, 1912,
Manhattan Press, clippings, $25.
Mr. Miller. Same purpose.
The Chairman. Check No. 2642, Luces Press, clippings, $15.
Mr. Miller. It should be No. 3641, $15. Same purpose.
The Chairman. I find check No, 36
Mr. Miller. No. 3642 is for the arrest of a boy.
The Chairman. Now, these items were to pay for news chppmgs
relating to the school and to the superintendent personally?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. On whose order were they paid?
Mr. Miller. The superintendent's order.
The Chairman. I fmd check No. 1821, dated February 8, 191 C,
watches, $308. What does that mean?
Ml". Miller. For watches for the boys; prizes, I believe.
The Chairman. The football boys?
Mr. Miller. I could not say if it was all football. I think it was
for track teams and other athletic sports.
The Chairman. On whose order was that?
Mr. Miller. Mr. Warner, I believe, made the purchase.
The Chairman. But who ordered it paid? The superintendent?
Mr. Miller. Oh, yes; the bills were all approved by the superin-
tendent.
The Chairman. I fhid a check, No. 1890, under date of March 24,
1910, to J. W. Wetzel, attorney, $50. What was that for?
Mr. Miller. I could not say.
The Chairman. Do you know of any services having been per-
formed by Wetzel as attorney for the athletic association ?
Mr. Miller. No, sir.
The Chairman. I find check No. 1891, March 24, 1910, sermon,
$125. Wliat is the explanation of that item ?
Mr. Miller. It was a commencement sermon.
The Chairman. Do they pay the minister delivering the com-
mencement sermon annually $125,
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; not always that amount, but he is paid.
The Chairman. Do you know how they came to be paid that
amount ?
Mr. Miller. By the superintendent's order.
The Chairman. I find check No. 3631, August 24, 1911, Weizel
and Hambleton, attorneys, $25. Do you know wliat that was for?
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1129
Mr. Miller. I do not.
Tlie Chairman. I also overlooked a while ago one of the items
relating to clippmg hiireaiis. Check No. 2698, October 7, 1911,
clipping bureau, $24.45. Was that for the same kind of service?
Mr. Miller. No. 2698 is in favor of Mr. O'Brien, assistant coach.
The Chairman. No. 2699, I should have said.
Mr. Miller. In favor of the Argus Press Clipping Bureau, $24.45;
the same as the others.
The Chairman. The expenses of players are of course paid out of
the athletic funtl when they go away from home to ])lay a game ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, su'.
The Chairman. A large number of pupils usually attend those
games from the school ?
Mr. Miller. The Philadelphia game.
The Chairman. They pay their own expenses, of course, when they
go there?
Mr. Miller. Yes, su\
The Chairman. How much does it amount to ?
Mr. Miller. $3.70 a round trip. When there are 100 in the party.
I believe that has always been the rate.
The Chairman. How man}^ usually go.
Mr. Miller. From 100 to 200, and sometimes more.
The Chairman. Wliat was the "charity" account? How did that
account arise — from what source — and how was it disbursed ?
Mr. Miller. It is made up of contributions by persons who were
interested in the school and wished to contribute for it for purposes
that the Government would not pay.
The Chairman. Supermtendent Friedman's expenses and those of
his family when they accompanied hmi were universally paid out of
the athletic fund when he attended these games ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How did those expense accounts run — pretty
large ?
Mr. Miller. You have the figures in almost every case.
The Chairman. You would, of course, rather not express an opin-
ion ? Were the accounts always itemized ?
Mr. Miller. No, su-.
The Chairman. How did you arrive at the amount to be paid ?
Mr. Miller. By an expense statement submitted by the superin-
tendent, showing expenses on each occasion of so much.
The Chairman. Did he usuaU}^ itemize them ?
Mr. Miller. No, su\
The Chairman. He usually did not.
Mr. Miller. He did not.
The Chairman. They were paid on his unitemized statement, by
the checks as you have shown ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Approved by himself ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. You understand, all these bills are ap-
proved by the superintendent.
The Chairman. Yes. You had no authority to audit them, and
when he instructed you to make payment you did it?
Mr. Miller. Certainlv.
1130 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. Has this fund ever been checked or investigated
by any representative of the Government prior to Mr. E. B. Linnen,
the inspector, who has just recentlv gone through it ?
Mr. Miller. I am not sure. I believe Mr. McConihe looked into
it, but I am not sure.
The Chairman. Do you remember when that was?
Mr. Miller. I could not give you the date; it was during Maj.
Mercer's administration.
The Chairman. Was it before your time?
Mr. Miller. No; I have been heie 14 years.
The Chairman. I mean, did you have charge of these books then?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. His main inquiry was individual Inchan
money, and I am not positive whether he looked into the athletic
account or not.
Representative Stephens. Was Mr. McConihe a supervisor?
Mr. Miller. Indian supervisor.
The Chairman. That is all I want to ask Mr. Miller.
Representative vStephens. I would like to ask him what they are
doing with the surplus funds now ?
Mr. Miller. There is $25,000 on hand; $15,000 deposited at 3 per
cent and the other is on open account.
Representative Stephens. What do you mean by " open account ?"
Mr. Miller. Checking account.
Representative Stephens. You are leaving about $10,000 in a
checldng account and $15,000 deposited for whaUtime?
Mr. Miller. It is a six months' certificate of deposit, bearing 3 per
cent interest.
Representative Stephens. I understand you formerly invested in
railroad bonds and this proved to be quite profitable ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Why did they discontinue that?
Mr. Miller. That was during Maj. Mercer's administration, and
Mr. Friedman, I think, was afraid of loss or depreciation of security,
and preferred to have the money at a lower rate of interest rather than
invest it in a security which fluctuated.
Re]U'esentative Stephens. What banks have it?
Mr. Miller. The Farmers Trust Co. have the account now.
The Chairman. You know Mr. Stauffer, the band master, here, do
you?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Were you present at any time when he had an
interview with Mr. Linnen ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chx\irman. Where were you?
Mr. Miller. In my office.
The CtiairMzVN. What date was that, if you remember?
Mr. Miller. On Thursday of this week, February 5th.
The Chairman. Did vou see him thei'e on Fridav. Februavv the
6th, also ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, «ir.
The Chairman. Did you hear a conversation between Mr. Stauffer
and Mr. Linnen ?
Mr. Miller. Part of it.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1131
The Chairman. What did you hear? Just state from memory or
memorandum.
Mr. Miller. I made an affidavit of the conversation at that time,
reading as follows:
Mr. Stauffer reads affidavit and asks to cliange it. Mr. Linnen asks wtiy he desirea
to change it. Mr. Stauffer replies, "I have been thinking it over and want to insert
this," producing a statement in place of what he said. Mr. Linnen asks, "Have you
consulted anyone in making this statement? " Here I was interrupted, either called
from the room or didn't hear his reply, and probably other questions and repUes.
Mr. Linnen then asks, "You then refuse to sign this affidavit?" Mr. Stauffer
answers, "Yes, sir, in its present form." Mr. Linnen states, "All right, you are
excused."
Mr. Stauffer replies, "I will give you to understand you are not superintendent
here. You can't bluii" us the way you have been doing things around here." Mr.
Linnen states, "I told you, you were excused." Mr. Stauffer states, "You can't bluff
anybody around here. We know you. We are on to your game."
Mr. Linnen makes no reply. Mr. Stauffer, going, remarks: "Furthermore, you are
no gentleman," and passing out of the door, he exclaims, "You are no gentleman, do
you hear that?"
TESTIMONY OF E. L. MARTIN.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
Tlie Chairman. Mr. Alartin, what business are you engaged in?
Mr. Martin. Newspaper business.
The Chairman. You live in Carlisle, do you ?
Mr. Martin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What is your newspaper ?
Mr. Martin. I am editor of the Carlisle Evening Herald.
The Chairman. Are you also correspondent
Mr. Martin. For the Associated Press and the Philadelphia Even-
ing Telegram.
The Chairman. In checking over the accounts of tlie athletic fund
it appears tliat under date of January 6, 1912, you received a check
for 1150.
Mr. Martin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. For what service was that?
Mr. Martin. Why, for service of material given out and services
rendered, as typewriting, etc., for the Indian athletic committee,
during the football and athletic seasons. I am connected with Mr.
Miller, who has the Letter Shop in Carlisle, and I have a half interest
in the correspondence to about 120 newspapers. Mr. Miller and I
have been doing the publicity work for the athletic association during
the football seasons. I have been here two years, and during that
season we have received SI 50 each for photographs and the work done
in advertising footballs games in other cities.
The Chairman. I find here check No. 3175, under date of Decem-
ber 3, 1912, by which you received as correspondent $150 in addi-
tion to the $150 I referred to a while ago. What was that for ?
Mr. Martin. That was 1913 Oh, one was for 1912 and one for
1913. It was the same each each year, for services rendered.
The Chairman. How was that allowance made, Mr. Martin ?
Was it in the nature of a salary?
Mr. Martin. No, it was for expenses only. We send out articles
lots of times uselessly; we take a chance. But during the football
season and the lacrosse season
The Chairman. Boosting the game ?
1132 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. Martin. Boosting the crowds for the game.
The Chairman.. Now, I find another check, No. 3571, under date
of November 24, 1913, to Hugh R. Miller, editor, $200— $100 to Miller
and $100 to Martin. That was for the same kind of service, was it?
Mr. Miller. The $200 check last fall was the first payment, and the
$100 check the second payment, making the $300, divided between
the two gentlemen.
The Chairman. The other check was under date of December 2,
1913, for $100, which made $150 each?
Mr. Martin. Yes.
The Chairman. You send this out in the nature of news?
Mr. Martin. In the nature of news; yts. It would be paid for in
newspapers if it were sent as advertising.
The Chairman. But being sent out i.s news, it w^ould be less
expensive ?
Mr. Martin. Yes.
The Chairman. Does the Associated Press carry that?
Mr. Martin. No ; they do not carry it.
The Chairman. Who does carry it?
Mr. Martin. It is carried in some of these papers. One story
might be carried in one — one story would not go in all the papers.
We have about 120 papers.
The Chairman. Do they belong to an association?
Mr. Martin. No. Mr. Miller worked for years here to organize a
news syndicate himself.
The Chairman. And he sent this out by telegraph or letter?
Mr. Martin. Mostly by letter.
The Chairman. To the independent papers that he represents ?
Mr. Martin. That is it. During the football season we have a
regular standing order by wire each night for 15 to 20 papers — Boston,
Chicago, New York, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh — wherever the team
plays during the season.
The Chairman. I think you have sufficiently explained. The
items that went to your associate, Mr. Miller, were for the same kind
of service ?
Mr. Martin. Yes; he is the manager; I am a kind of silent partner.
I do half the work, about, and we divide. It costs us on an
average, I should judge, $150 a year for postage alone. That does
not cover the expense. We sent out, I suppose, five or six hundred
photographs last year.
The Chairman. You think you do not make anything out of it?
Mr. Miller. We do not. We lose money as far as the expenses are
concerned. We probably make the difference up from the money we
get from the newspapers. We have to send so much out that the
correspondence itself does make up the dift'erence in the expenses.
Representative Carter. Is this procedure that 5^ou have at Car-
lisle for the advertisement of games, etc., customarj^ in the colleges
throughout the country ?
Mr. Martin. I believe so. I know it is at Bucknell, where I
graduated.
Representative Carter. That is the regular procedure ?
Mr. Martin. In most of the colleges that I know of. Dickinson
Colleire did the same.
CARLISLE INDL\N SCHOOL.
1133
FURTHER TESTIMONY OF MR. WILLIAM H. MILLER, FINANCIAL
CLERK.
Representative Carter. I vrant to ask Mr. Miller a few more ques-
tions. When was the Carli le Indian School Athletic xlssociation
formed ?
Mr. Miller. The athletic association has existed as long as I can
remember. The constitution and by-laws were printed, as I remem-
ber, in 1908. The incorporation took place after that date, however.
The constitution and by-laws, as I said, were printed, I think, in
1908, and the incorporation was of a more recent date.
Representative Carter. When was the incorporation ? I notice
from notes furnished me it was on April 8, 1911.
Mr. Miller. I think that is correct.
Representative Carter. Who were the incorporators ?
Mr. Miller. Mr. Warner, myself, and some of the boys.
Representative Carter. Which ones of the boys ?
Mr. Miller. Hauser — I can not recall them.
Representative Carter. Garlow ?
Mr. Miller. I beheve William Garlow is one.
Representative Carter. Was that all ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. What was your method of organization at
that time ?
Mr. Miller. There was a meeting called, explaining the purpose
of the organization
Representative Carter. It is not necessary to read; I think you
can tell us in general terms what the method of organization was.
How did you go about the organization of this athletic association ?
Mr. Miller. After the meeting was called, ]\Ir. Ray, an attorney
here, was employed to secure the charter, and that is practically all
there was to it.
Representative Carter. Did anybody pay any money into it ?
Mr. Miller. No, sir.
Representative Carter. Under what State laws were you incor-
porated ?
Mr. Miller. Pennsylvania.
Representative Carter. Now, who is Mr. Moses Friedman ?
Mr. Miller. The superintendent.
Representative Carter. Who is Glenn S. Warner ?
Mr. Miller. Athletic director.
Representative Carter. Who is Will H. Miller ?
Mr. Miller. P^inancial clerk.
Representative Carter. Who is WilUam Garlow ?
Mr. Miller. One of the athletic boys.
Representative Carter, Who was this fellow Hauser?
Mr. Miller. He was one of the athletic boys.
Representative Carter. And the other gentleman's name you
mentioned was one of the boys ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. How
now?
Mr. Miller. I could not say.
many belong to that association
1134 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Representative Carter. ^Tiat is the method for joining the
association ?
•Mr. Miller. All those entitled to wear the "C," whatever that
requirement is — Mr. Warner knows, but I could not say — are members
of the association.
Representative Carter. Could you give us a general idea ?
Mr. Miller. They are made up of boys on the track team and the
baseball team, when they had baseball, and lacrosse and football.
Representative Carter. The membership of the association, then,
is composed of you three gentlemen, and those boys who are eligible
to take part in the Carlisle athletics, according to the decision of Mr.
Warner ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. What do the boys get out of this ?
Mr. Miller. They at one time received payments of money. At
the present thne they get nothing but the prizes they win m the
contests, and at the close of the football season they get an overcoat
and a suit of clothing.
Representative Carter. They get that whether you make a profit
or not ?
Mi\ Miller. Well, it could not be well given if there was not a
profit. There always has been a profit.
Representative Carter. If you did not make a profit you gentle-
men would not be expected to dig up from your pockets and make
those things good ?
Mr. Miller. I should not think so.
Representative Carter. What benefit do the other students who
do not belong to the association get from it ?
Mr. Miller. There are entertainments — there have been enter-
tainments, paid for from these funds, given in the school chapel.
There have been buildings erected from these funds — the business
department, and the academic building, and the prmting office
Representative Carter. The other students of the school do not
get any direct benefit ? All they get is the benefit to the institution ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, su-; indirectly.
Representative Carter. Does tir. Friedman draw a salary ?
Mr. Miller. From the association ?
Representative Carter. Yes.
Mr. Miller. No, sir.
Representative Carter. Does Mr. Warner?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. What is his salary ?
Mr. Miller. $4,000 per year.
Representative Carter. Do you draw a salary ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. What is your salary ?
Mr. Miller. S! 20 a year.
Representative Carter. What are Mr. Friedman's duties in con-
nection with the association?
Mr. Miller. To pass upon the bills.
Representative Carter. Is that all he df^es?
Mr. Miller. Well, the others, I should say, would come under his
duties as superintendent, looking after the welfare of the pupils.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1135
Representative Carter. Then, his position in connection with the
athletic association does not phice upon him any additional responsi-
bilities or duties that he would not have if he were not connected
with the association ^
Mr. Miller. I can hardly answer that, not knowing the duties of
the supermtendent.
Representative Carter. I believe you said Mrs. Foster drew some-
thing from this fund, who is a teacher ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. Do you know what her duties as a teacher
are?
!Mi\ Miller. Her duties in connection with the athletic associatioa ?
Nothing.
Representative Carter. I believe you said that Mr. Mann, who is
a teacher, also drew a salary ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; they were paid from tliis fund for the pur-
pose of looking after the Y. M. C. A. work.
Representative Carter. But he has no duties whatever in connec-
tion with the athletic association ?
Mr. Miller. Not any.
Representative Carter. I believe you said Mr. William H. Dietz
drew a salary from the fund ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; but I think he was assistant coach.
Representative Carter. He draws that for assistant coach?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. So that he is one fellow who does actually
render some serA^ce to the association for the salary he draws ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; and Mr. Warner.
Representative Carter. Since your society has been incorporated,
how many games of football have you played ?
Mr. Miller. I could not answer that. I could give it approxi-
mately.
Representative Carter. Haven't you a record of it ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; the ledger gives each game separately.
Representative Carter. I would like to have that in the record- —
each game separately that jou have played and the amounts you
received from each game.
Mr. Miller. I believe Mr. Linnen has that information. I can not
give it gross and net. I have taken up here the check I have received.
In some cases we shared in the net receipts and in some cases we
shared in the gross receipts.
Representative Carter. What do you mean by the check you
received ?
Mr. Miller. The money actually received.
Representative Carter. Who gives you this check ?
Mr. Miller. Mr. Warner.
Representative Carter. Mr. Warner settles the accounts of the
games and then gives you a check for it ?
Mr. Miller. No. The teams we play usually have charge of the
gate receipts. They settle the bills and settle with Mr. Wanier on
the basis of the contract that he has entered into with them.
Representative Carter. That check they give liim is always for
the net receipts ?
1136
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. Miller. As I said, it is not always figured on the net receipts.
Sometimes the contract is made on a guaranty.
Representative Carter. I mean the net receipts to your associa-
tion.
Mr. Miller. Tiiat is right ; I understand you now.
Representative Carter. Have you received any emolument or pay
or remuneration of any character from the association during your
services except your salary ?
Mr. Miller. On one occasion I received $100, which I think I
explained while you were out.
Representative Carter. Is that all you have received ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. You have received nothing else from the
athletic fund except that $100 and your salary?
Mr. Miller. That is all.
Representative Carter. Do you know whether Mr. Friedman has
or not ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; the record shows that he has.
Representative Carter. Do you know whether he received any-
thing outside of what your records show or not ?
Mr. Miller. No, sir; I do not.
Representative Carter. Do you know whether Mr. Warner did
or not ?
Mr. Miller. No, sir; I do not.
Representative Carter. Can you tell what the aggregate receipts
of your association have been for games and in other ways since you
have been secretary ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; I can, from the ledger.
Representative Carter. I mean since you were incorporated.
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter.
suiting your ledger ?
Mr.'MiLLER. No, sir; I
here and hunt it u]).
Representative Carter.
You can not give them without con-
will have to take up the receipts column
Now, Mr. Miller, I wish you would give a
tabulated statement showing each check that was delivered to jou
from each source whatsoever, foot it up, and show us what the aggre-
gate is.
Mr. Miller. That is, since incorporation? Yes, sir.
(The statement furnished by Mr. Miller is as follows:)
Statement of receipts of athletic fund.
Date.
From whom received.
Amount.
Date.
From whom received.
Amount.
1907.
Mar. 16
11
Franklin and Marsliall game-
Atlantic City guaranty
Harrisburg guaranty
Seton Hall game. .."
$21. 20
129.20
200.00
100. 00
75.00
200.00
90.00
97.00
523. 00
60.00
50.00
18.45
75.00
1907.
June 6
6
6
18
IS
IS
IS
Sept. 21
2S
Oct. 1
2
7
7
Franldin and Marshall game.
$20. 00
10.00
17
May 4
2
University of Pennsylvania.
Franklin and Marshall
All right game
37.50
10.00
Fordham game.
40.00
2
State College
100. 00
15
V , P game
100.00
20
Lebanon Valley
22.40
20
125. 00
20
35.20
27
Milkrsville game. .
Susquehanna game
11.00
June 6
200.00
6
do '.:.
Williamsport game
842. 04
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1137
Statement of receipts of athletic fund — Continued.
From whom received.
29
3
10
13
26
2
16 1
16
18
23
27
30
30
2
10
16
Wyoming game
Syracuse game
Bucknell game
Shippensburg game
Frank ford guaranty
Steelton Y. M. C. A
Princeton game
Susquehanna University
University of Pennsylvania
game.."
Waynesboro game
Balance U. P. game
University of Chicago game..
University of Minnesota
game
Harvard game
Balance on hand end of year,
bank balance
Balance on hand end of year,
Northern Pacific bonds
Total
Mercersburg guatantv
do :
Trenton guaranty
Lehigh guaranty
Emmittsburg guaranty
ButTalo guaranty
Holy Cross guaranty
Brown guaranty
Elmira
Ithaca guaranty
Hagerstown guaranty
AVinchester guaranty
Balance Elmira game
Dickinson game
Hagerstown games
Dickinson game
Harrisburg Athletic Club
Franklin and Marshall guar-
anty
Albright guaranty
University of Pennsylvania..
Lebanon Valley
Villanova
Mercersburg game
State game at Wilkesbarre. . .
ViUanova
Syracuse game at Builalo
Wilkesbarre game
Annapolis guaranty
University of Pittsliurgh. . . .
Warbrook game at Baltimore
Scotland Orphan School
Allentown game
Wayneslioro game
Dickinson game
Phoenixville guaranty
St. Louis L^niversity
Nebraska and Denver game.
University of Pennsylvania
game ."
University of Minnesota
game
Balance on hand end of year.
Balance, Reading bonds"
Total
(Including some of the
Northern Pacific bonds.)
Harvard game
Balance, Harvard game
University of Pennsylvania
basket ball
Boston Athletic Association.
Amount.
S88. 85
2, 188. 40
200.00
14.88
150. 00
125. 00
9, 25:3. 35
44.16
0, 260. 03
14.08
500.00
16,900.25
7, 507. 50
11,433.81
14,503.96
28, 000. 00
42, 503. 96
23.76
9.70
75.00
80,00
05. 00
100. 00
100. 00
200.00
200. 00
75.00
80.00
100.00
217.67
33.00
174. 62
59.87
8.30
50.00
40.00
100. 00
11.50
154. 85
32.40
1,570.41
5.00
2, 462. 50
90.00
500.00
2, 161. 60
200. 00
15.00
86.04
28. 16
20.40
100. 00
7,297.75
2, 500. 00
7, 313. 43
5, 854. 03
14,169.91
12,000.00
26, 169. 91
7, 854. 78
690.00
50.00
120.00
Apr.
May
1909.
Feb. 19
29
Mar. 1
12
12
15
30
1
12
12
19
26
26
26
4
4
4
10
11
13
13
13
15
20
19
19
19
19
20
June 1
1
1
1
1
1
14
Sept. 18
22
25
1
2
6
19
25
25
Nov. 1
8
From whom received.
Oct.
Dec.
1910.
Jan. 20
Feb.
American Sports Publishing
Co
Buffalo guaranty
New Orleans guaranty
Georgetown LTniversity
Trenton Y. M. C. A
Johns Hopkins LTniversity...
F. B. Lown guaranty
Mercersbu rg gu aranty
Atlantic City guaranty
Mercersburg guaranty
Pittsburgh guaranty
State guaranty
Bucknell guaranty
Harrisburg Athletic Club
Andover guaranty
Holy Cross guaranty
Brown guaranty
Scotland guaranty
State College
Dickinson game
Syracuse University
Cornell
Lafayette
Dickinson
Seton Hall guaranty
Fordham guaranty
West Point
Hagerstown guaranty
St. Mary's game
Hagerstown guaranty
Annapolis guaranty
Mount Washington
Millersville guaranty
Shippensburg guaranty
University of Pittsburgh
Harrisburg track meet
Myerstown guaranty
U. P. guaranty
Steelton Athletic Club
Lebanon Valley game
Villanova game
Mercersburg game
Bucknell game
Pittsburgh Athletic Club
Stage game at Wilkes-Barre.
Syracuse game at New York.
University of Pittsburgh
Norristown game
George Washington L'niver-
sity
Bloorasburg game
Baltimore guaranty
Gettysburg game
Waynesboro game
Gettysburg game
Allentown guaranty
Phoenixville guaranty
Brown LTniversity
University of Pennsylvania. .
University of St. Louis
Balance on hand end of
year
(Some Reading bonds.)
Swarthmore guaranty
Gettysburg guaranty
New York track guaranty . . .
University of Pennsylvania
Ijasket ball guaranty
Dexter Academy
Cornell guaranty
Syracuse guaranty
Mercersburg guarantee
Franklin and Marshall
Washington guaranty
Mercersburg guaranty
Columbia guaranty
Tcwanama guararitv
Amount.
$75.00
99.20
146.25
50.00
100.00
40.00
45.00
23.76
35.00
23.76
105.00
75.00
55.00
175.00
75.00
40.00
100.00
12.32
8.25
33.98
315. 70
150.00
41.25
31.70
60.00
80.00
150.00
42.30
65.00
60.00
75.00
125.00
75.00
12.60
8.00
41.00
40.00
75.00
35.25
5.25
119.00
32.40
141.81
53.50
1, 186. 84
2,044.24
1,878.50
106. 20
824. 75
66.56
150.00
131.50
28.16
25.00
100.00
100. 00
1,584.13
6,741.00
3,785.00
9, 652. So
50.00
25. 00
75.00
65.00
100.00
60. CO
100.00
15.12
30.00
57.76
15.12
150. CO
30. CO
35601— PT 11-
1138 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Statement of receipts of athletic fund — Continued.
From whom received.
Shippen.sburg guaranty
Baltimore guaranty
New York Athletic Club
Albright guaranty
Lehigh game
Sixty-fifth Regiment Ath-
letic '\ssociation, Buft'alo.
S warthmore game
Stevens Institute guaranty.
Baltimore game
State College
Swarthmore
Annapolis guaranty
Pittsburgh A . A
Baltimore guaranty
Easton guaranty
Harlem E vening High School
Stamford (Conn. ) guaranty. .
Lebanon Vallej'
Mercersburg guaranty
Muhlenberg game
Emmittsburg guaranty
Harrisburg guaranty
GettysbiKg guaranty
Elverson guaranty
University of Syracuse
Dickinson College
Bloomsburg
Mercersbiu-g
Princeton University
Mercersburg
Bucknell at Wilkes-Barre. . .
Lebanon Valley
Villanova
Phoenixville guaranty
Harrisburg Academy
Walbrook guaranty
Navy guaranty
University of Virginia
Johns Hopkins
Gettysburg
Millersburg
Muhlenburg
Berwick guaranty
Brown University
University of Peiinsylvania.
Balance end of year
National Collegiate meet
Shippensburg Normal
Swarthmore game
University of Pennsylvania
game
St. Johns guaranty
Sixty-fifth regulation guar-
anty
Harvard Law School
Millersville B. B. guaranty.
Cettysbiu-g guaranty
Mercersburg guaranty
York Y. M. C. A
Shippensburg game
Canton guaranty
Oswego guaranty
Rochester guaranty
Buffalo guaranty
Columbia game
Crescent game
Johns Hopkins game
Alliright guaranty
EmmittslMirg guaranty
Philadt^lphia marathon
Bethlehem guaranty
Johns Hopkins
Harvard game
The Evening Mail
Steven's guaranty
Amount.
$6. 16
60.00
30.00
15.34
25.50
117.00
12.00
100. 00
4.75
25.50
S.25
40.00
10.00
80.00
125.00
30.00
35.00
19.00
33.10
10.50
75.00
12.16
30.50
100.00
2, 028. 75
17.91
70.72
31.64
598. 00
33.90
2,038.50
23.94
2,372.50
125. 00
15.00
150. 00
550. 00
840. 13
924. 75
25.00
36.00
102. 70
18.00
4,006.25
3, 609. 59
Date.
4,060.43
45.00 I
6.86
50.00
65.
60.
56.
,480.
19.
25.
15.
15.
6.
125.
100.
100.
100.
100.
60.
60.
25.
40.
29.
75.
100.
250.
43.
150.
1911.
May 31
June 2
Sept. 23
28
Oct. 1
4
1912.
Jan 1
Nov.
Dec.
Feb. 12
19
24
Mar. 4
7
Apr. 2
18
22
May 10
14
20
27
28
June 3
Aug. 21
Sept. 23
25
Oct. 1
4
Nov,
Dec.
From whom received.
Mount Washington guaranty
Swarthmore guaranty
Lebanon Valley game . ^ . . .
Muhlenburg game
Dickinson game
Mercersburg game
Bloomsburg guaranty
Lebanon Valley
Georgeto^Ti University
LTniversity of Pittsburgh . .
Lafayette
Mount AVashington game. .
Scotland game
Syracuse LTniversity
Johns Hopkins
Wilkes-Barre game
Youngsto\\ii Athletic Club..
Scotland guaranty
Muhlenburg
Berwick guaranty
Middletown guaranty
Harvard game
Balance at end of year
University of Pennsylvania
game ."
Brown LTniversity
Sixty-fifth Regiment Ath-
letic Association
LTniversity of Pennsylvania
races
Swarthmore guaranty
Baltimore guaranty
Boston Athletic .Association..
Seventy-first Regiment
Washington track guaranty..
Pittsburgh Athletic Associa-
tion
Lehigh lacrosse
Johns Hopkins
Mail and Express guaranty..
John C. Gilpin guaranty
Swarthmore gxiarantv
Brookl\Ti -Vthletic Club
Lafayette guaranty
Mount Washington guaranty
Newark race
Albright game
Lebanon Valley game
Mercersburg
Villanova game
Washington and Jefferson. . .
Norristo%vn
Harrisburg giiaranty
Syracuse University
LTniversity of Pittsburgh
Bloomsburg Normal
G eorgeto\\Ti University
Myerstowai game
Syracuse University
Toronto game
Lebanon \'alley
New Cumberland
Latrobe game
Lehigh University
Wilkes-Barre gartie
Springfield Y. M. C. A
Mount Washington guaranty
Berwick giiaranty
Holmesburg guaranty
W est Point guaranty
Dickinson game "
Middletown guaranty
University of Penns.ylvania..
Balance on hand at end of
year
Amount.
CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Statement of receipts of athletic fund — Continued.
1139
Date.
1913.
Jan. 6
Feb. 17
Mar. 1.3
20
Apr. 21
May 5
5
12
26
31
June 2
Sept. 27
Oct. 3
6
14
17
20
22
8
Nov. 9
11
11
From whom received.
University of Pennsylvania
basket liall game . "
Brown Unixersity
Johns Hopkins
BufiFalo guaranty
Washington guaranty
South Bethlehem guaranty.
Johns Hopkins
Annapolis
Baltimore
Crescent Athletic Club
Swarthmore
Jfonnt Washington
West Virginia game
Mercersburg guaranty
Waynesburg guaranty
Albright guaranty ,
Cornell University ,
University of Pittsburgh. . . ,
Perm Military Academy
Lehigh game ,
Hilman Academy
Johns Hopkins
Georgeto\\-n University ,
Amount.
S65. 00
3,862.60
50.00
96.65
50.00
75.00
125.00
60.00
100.00
143. 00
85.00
138. 00
108. 75
30.60
27.90
46.20
1,451.75
2,403.32
150.00
1,206.92
120.0"
418.75
1,000.00
Date.
1913.
Nov. 17
28
27
From whom received.
Dec.
1914.
Jan. 17
Feb. 6
Dartmouth game
Lebanon Valley
do
Holmesburg Athletic Club..
St. Bountevouse College. . . .
Muhlenburg College
Bloomsburg Normal
Syracuse University
Liniversity of Pennsylvania.
Balance in bank end of year
Certificate of deposit
Total
Brown University
Philadelphia guaranty
Balance in bank end of Jan-
uary
Certificates of deposit
Total
Amount.
$8,629.35
50.00
30.00
200.00
237. 56
150.00
85.00
1,583.00
3,673.50
9,112.60
15,000.00
2,892.00
65.00
10, 144. 83
15,000.00
25, 144. 83
Representative Carter. What is the largest sum 3-011 have ever
received from a game ?
The Chairman. Start with the date of this book.
Representative Carter. All ri^^^t. Go back to 1907 then. What
is the largest receipts you have ever had in one game ?
Mr. Miller. I do not recall the amount. If I dare refer to these
memoranda i have prepared, between S16,000 and SI 7,000.
Representative Carter. When was that? You know what year it
was, don't 3"ou ?
Mr. Miller. No; I don't recall the year.
The Chairman. His statement will show that.
Mr. Miller. It was during Maj. Mercer's administration, that
game with Chicago.
Representative Stephens. What year did he go out ?
Mr. Miller. Here it is; December 9, 1907, 816,960.25.
Representative Carter. Can you tell us without having to go
through the books there about wdiat the profit was ?
Mr. Miller. That is the net. The total receipts that year, as I
remember, were about 840,000 or $45,000.
Representative Carter. What were your running expenses that
year ?
Mr. Miller. I could not tell you that without going over the
accounts. That was the year, I believe, that the money was invested
in bonds — Northern Pacific bonds and Reading bonds; 28 Northern
Pacific bonds and 12 Reading; that would have been $30,000, count-
ing them at par. They were bought somewhat below par.
Representative Carter. And the association still owns them?
Mr. Miller. They have all been sold at a profit.
Representative Carter. What w\as done with the proceeds?
Mr. Miller. Turned back into the treasury at a profit of $1,100
on the Northern Pacific and S488 on the Reading.
Representative Carter. Turned back into the association, and
paid out in tlie regular course of business?
1140 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; as accounted for by the ledger. These
statements that I have fastened to the ledger here are a record of
the purchases, etc.
Representative Carter. You can tell about what your running
expenses are each year, can you, on an average ?
Mr. ]\Iiller. No; I would not even like to approximate it.
Representative Carter. What are the assets of the association now ?
Mr. Miller. At tlie present thvc there is $15,000 invested at 3
per cent, and the balance in bank is $10,144.83.
Representative Carter. So it would look as if the association had
not been conducted at a profit since those bonds were disposed of?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; always at a profit, but the money has been
invested in buildings on the grounds.
Representative Carter. That money belongs to the association ?
By that you mean that each man that is a member of the association — ■
students, teachers, and all — has an equal share?
Mr. Miller. That is a question ] can not answer.
Representative Carter. Who does it belong to? Can you say?
Mr. Miller. No, sir; I can not.
Representative Carter. All you know is you have a right to pay
it out on the order of Mr. Friedman ?
Mr. Miller. When the check is countersigned by Mr, Warner.
I have asked myself the question, In case the school and the associa-
tion were closed up what would become of the funds ?
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, it is earned by the pupils in
the school?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And it is and ought to be part of the funds avail-
able for the conduct of this schccl; ought it not, and accounted for
by Government officers?
Mr. Miller. I believe that is one of the requirements, and yet in
the case of West Point and Amiapolis, is it done?
Representative Carter. Now, when you make this statement,
Mr. Miller, I would like for you to make it show the balan.ce at the
end of each year.
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. You mean the calendar year? At the
end of December of each yeur?
Representative Carter. That is the end of your season practically,
is it not?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Representative Carter. I would like for it to show specifically
what was received from each game, the date the game was played,
and the balance at the end of each year, and I would like for you to
distinguish particularly between the disposition made of the funds
and the way they were handled prior to and since incorporation.
Mr. Miller. There has been no difference in the method of hand-
ling. This book begin.s in 1907, and the method of accounting for
the money has been the same throughout.
Representative Carter. Mr. Miller, have you any other business,
except secretary of the association ?
Mr. Miller. Surely; that is a smrdl ])art of my work.
Representative Carter. Wliat business are you in?
Mr. Miller. I am financial clerk, and have charge of between 700
and 800 individual Indian accounts.
CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1141
RepreseTitative Carter. Finr.ncial clerk for the institution here?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. Wliat sahiry do you draw?
Mr. Miller. $1,000 a year.
Representative Carter. Your total salary then is $1,420?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Representative Carter. You say that after each game a check is
turned over to you for the recei])ts of the game ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. Wliat is that check the result of?
Mr. Miller. It is the result of the game.
Representative Carter. Of the recei])ts of the game?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. After the expenses are paid?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. After the boys' railroad fare is paid ?
Mr. Miller. No; those expenses go on the other side of the col-
umn. I take up invariably the amount of the check I receive, and
then disburse by check on the other side.
Representative Carter. Now, what I want to get at is exactly
what the check means that is handed to you; just what expenses
come out of the receipts of that game before the check reaches you.
Mr. Miller. That is what I was trying to tell you. In some
cases the check we get is figured with the receipts all taken in, and
we get a percentage of the gate receipts. In some cases it is figured
on the gross receipts, and in other cases it is a guaranty. Now, we
have a game; the contract would read a guari:nty of one, two, or
three thousand dollars, or a certain per cent of the receipts. If the
weather was bad and the receipts would not amount to more than
the guaranty we would take the guaranty.
Representative Carter. You do not alwavs then divide the receipts
of the game upon a percentage basis with other teams?
Mr. Miller. No, sir.
Representative Carter. Now, then, who makes the settlement at
the gate ?
Mr. Miller. I have done so in a couple of instances. Well, of
course, I have charge of the gate receipts here, which do not amount
to very much, and I have had charge of two or three games away from
home — one at Wilkes-Barre and one at Ha,rrisburg.
Representative Carter. Did you get a percentage of the receipts
there or have a guaranty ?
Mr. Miller. At Wilkes-Barre you will find the ledger is credited
with the total amount that we took in and then there is a check
drawn in my favor for the total amount of the expenses.
Representative (-arter. You got all the money that was taken in
and expenses in addition ?
Mr. Miller. No; VvC got all the money that was taken in, having
charge of the gate receipts; but then we paid out the expenses and
gave the other team a guaranty, I think, of $500.
Representative Carter. How about the other game?
Mr. Miller. The other game at Harrisburg was the same way.
Representative Carter. Now, the check you got ought to corre-
spond with the amount as ])er th'^ agreement made and given by the
opposing football association ?
1142 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. Miller. I would change that b;,' saying it should agree with
the statement rendered.
Senator Lane. Who are "iheyV
Mr. Miller. The team we play.
Senator Lane. Does the man who takes in tiie receipts turn those
over to you?
Mr. Miller. No; the team has a committee that has charge of the
game; and then there is a statement made to accompany the check.
Those statements I have on fde wherever they were given to me.
Senator Lane. Who guarantees to you that the amount turned
over to you is the amount actually collected at the gate ?
Mr. Miller. Those statements are always signed by some repre-
sentative of the team.
Senator Lane. I know; but who does the actual work? Who
handles the money lief ore you get the check?
Mr. Miller. Tlie teams who have charge of the gates.
Senator Lane. They appoint a delegate from each team ?
Mr. Miller. Yes; but Carlisle is not always represented. You see,
usually the team that we play has charge of the gates, because they
usually own the field.
Senator Lane. Do you have somebody sitting in with them?
Mr. Miller. Not very often.
Senator Lane. That is a matter of honor, and it is all straight, is it ?
Mr. Miller. So far as I know.
Representative Carter. It may be true that you do not have
some one sitting in when you are playing under a guarantee, but when
you are playing for a percentage of receipts don't you have somebody ?
Mr. Miller. The contract usually reads that the team shall have
charge of the gate.
Representative Carter. Then the fellow authorized by the other
team to do so turns over to Mr. Warner a check, and that check is
delivered to you ?
Mr. Miller. That is it.
Representative Carter. So that the feUow who had charge of the
opposing team has a record that mil correspond to the check that
you get ?
Mr. Miller. Certainly he has.
Representative Carter. There is no doubt about that at all, is
there ?
Mr. Miller. I could not see where there could be.
Senator Lane. 1 do not understand when you are taking in $18,000,
$19,000, or $20,000, if it is in the interest of both teams, why both
teams do not have representatives to sit there and watch the collec-
tion of the money. Wliy did you incorporate — or has that been
asked ? Wliy was it found necessary for this school to form a corpo-
ration, an inside administrative affair, for these football games, which
are a school institution ?
Mr. Miller. I can not answer that.
Senator Lane. That corporation is an outside, independent con-
cern from this school, is it not ?
Mr. Miller. Entirely.
Senator Lane. And n(>t a Government affair?
Mr. Miller. No.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1143
Senator Lane. Do you account to the Government for all these
things ?
Mr. Miller. Not a single thing.
Senator Lane. There is no report made of this to the Government ?
Mr. Miller. No, sir.
Senator Lane. Has any ever been asked ?
Mr. Miller. No, sir.
Senator Lane. Has it been investigated or inquired into by any
representative of the Government ?
Mr. Miller. Not until Mr. Linnen looked into it, unless Mr. Mc-
Conihe looked into it when he was here.
Senator Lane. You would have known it if he had checked your
books, wouldn't you?
Mr. Miller. I do not know
Senator Lane. Not for many years, then ?
Mr. Miller. Not for six or eight years, no.
Senator Lane. Your other reports for school funds and for appro-
priations you make an accounting of and full statements?
Mr. Miller. No ; that is handled by another clerk.
Senator Lane. You are not the general clerk then ?
Mr. Miller. I just have charge of the individual Indian accounts.
Senator Lane. How much money have you in individual Indian
accounts in the aggregate ?
Mr. Miller. About S30,000.
Senator Lane. How many accounts have you ?
Mr. Miller. Approximately 700; between 700 and 800.
Senator Lane. Do 3^ou issue each Indian a statement once in a
while ?
Mr. Miller. He has a little book, just the same as you and I have.
The money is deposited to the individual credit of the pupil in the
bank, and disbursed by a check that I \viite and the pupil signs,
countersigned by the superintendent.
Representative Stephens. Who is president of the corporation ?
Mr. Miller. Mr. Warner, the physical director of the school.
Representative Stephens. I am askmg about the corporation.
You nave a charter, and that charter requires the election of a presi-
dent and vice president, does it not ?
Mr. Miller. No; just a president, and a secretary and treasurer.
Representative Stephens. What is the stock authorized by the
charter?
Mr. Miller. There is no stock.
Representative Stephens. What is the object of the charter then?
Can you give us a copy of the charter ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; I have the original charter.
Senator Lane. This corporation then has it in its power to take
that money and invest it in any way outside of the school ?
Mr. Miller. I do not know.
Senator Lane. There are no restrictions placed upon you, are there,
as to the disposition of the money ?
Representative Stephens. We can not tell Avithout the charter
and the by-laws.
1144 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM B. GRAY.
The witness was duly sworn by the chau-man.
The Chairman. Are you connected with this school?
Mr. Gray. Yes, sir; I am the fanner.
The Chairman. How long have you been serving in that con-
nection ?
Mr. Gray. As farmer about eight years next spring.
The Chairman. Wliat are your duties, and how are they defined ?
Mr. Gray. My duties are to attend strictly to my own farm, as a
rule, but I am required oftentimes to go over on the other farm and
help.
The Chairman. How many farms are there ?
Mr. Gray. Two.
The Chairman. Where are they located with reference to this
school ?
Mr. Gray. The farm that I am on is just northeast of the school
about three-fourths of a mile, and the other is just down here south-
east of the school.
The Chairman. How many acres ?
Mr. Gray. The campus takes up part of the farm. There is sup-
posed to be 199 acres.
The Chairman. How many acres in the farm then exclusive of
that?
Mr. Gray. 176 acres.
The Chairman. What is the character of the land ?
Mr. Gray. It is limestone land. It is not very fertile; it has been
farmed pretty hard.
The Chairman. Do you know how long it has been under cultiva-
tion, Mr. Gray ?
Mr. Gray. Yes, sir; it has been under cultivation for a great many
years.
The Chairman. How long have you had charge of it?
Mr. Gray. Eight years.
The Chairman. Do you do anything to build up the land?
Mr. Gray. We get very little barnyard manure, and we have to
depend largely, almost altogether, on commercial fertilizer, and we
do not get as much of that as we should have.
The Chairman. What crops did you grow last year ?
Mr. Gray. We had corn, oats, potatoes
The Chairman. How many acres of each, approximately?
Mr. Gray. Corn, last year we had 29 acres.
The Chairman. How much did you grow?
Mr. Gray. One thousand five hundred and sixty-seven bushels.
The Chairman. What was done with that corn?
Mr. Gray. That was all used here at the school. Wliat has not
been used is down at the farm in the crib.
The Chairman. How is it used ?
Mr. Gray. Fed to the horses and stock.
The Chairman. How many horses are there on the farm ?
Mr. Gray. I have eight head of horses and mules on the farm.
The CHi^.iKMAN. Ili>w many acres of wdieat did you have in?
Mr. Gray. I had 48 acres of wheat in last year.
The Chairman. How much of that did you grow?
CARLISLE INDLIX SCHOOL. 1145
Mr. Gray. I had 973 bushels.
The Chairman. What was done with that ?
Mr. Gray. There was six hundred and some bushels of that sold.
I kept 150 bushels for seed, and the rest of the 100 that I did not use
for seed was used for chicken feed, and the rest of that was used to
pay the man that threshed the wheat. He took wheat for his pay.
The Chairman. How many acres of oats did you have?
]Mi-. Gray. We had 21^ acres last year.
The Chairman. How many bushels of oats did you grow?
^Ir. Gray. Seven hundred and ten bushels, I believe.
The Chairman. How much potatoes?
Mr. Gray. One thousand one hundred and eighty-nine bushels.
Senator Lane. How many acres ?
Ml'. Gray. It was between 10 and 12 acres — about 11.
Senator Lane. And averaged 100 bushels to the acre?
Mr. Gray. Almost; yes, sir.
The Chairman. What kind do you grow?
IVIr. Gray. Wliy, we grow Rural New Yorker.
The Chairman. What did you do with those potatoes?
]VIr. Gray. They are all used up here at the school, wdth the excep-
tion that I have 120 bushels in my cellar at the farm for seed.
The Chairman. How many chickens have you ?
IVIi". Gray. I carry 90 on my quarterly report.
The Chairman. Is that the number you have?
jVIt. Gray. I raised 195, I believe, and I killed 106 for Christmas.
The Chairman. That is for the pupils?
^Ir. Gray. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How do you cultivate the land under your control ?
Mr. Gray. In regard to what do you mean ?
The Chairman. By what labor?
]VIi'. Gray. It is all done by the boys here at the school.
The Chairman. How manj^ are detailed for that purpose ?
Mr. Gray. Well, quite often there is not enough detailed to do the
work. It depends upon what I am doing. I had a great deal of
trouble last summer here.
The Chairman. Do you have difficulty in getting enough help ?
Mr. Gray. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Your idea is, I suppose, to run a kind of demonstra-
tion farm there and show the boys how to farm ?
Mr. Gray. That is what we are supposed to do.
The Chairman. Are you doing much in that line ?
Mr. Gray. Well, we try to do all we can, but we are supposed to
raise crops at the same time. We are supposed to teach the boys,
but we can not raise crops and teach the boys if we have to do the
work ourselves. If we get plenty of h'dp it makes all the difference
in the world, but when we can not get the help, and it is no use to go
to the superintendent
Senator Lane. Why not go to the superintendent ?
Mr. Gray. Well, if you go to him he says to go to the disciplina-
rian. Of course, I have been to the disciplinarian in the first place —
the commandant, I suppose I should say.
Senator Lane. Do you mean to imply by that that the boys are
put on the farm as a kind of punishment ?
1146 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. Gray. They certainl}' are. If the boys are good for anything
he is allowed to go to th<^ shops, but th'^ boys v.'e work with as a rule
ar<' boys that have failed in the country, and we get them and work
with them on the farm. Just as soon as we report they are good, as
a rul.^, they are taken away from us.
The Chairman. Then, as a matter of fact, the management here is
making no i ffort to rv ally develop these boys into farm( rs, are they ?
Mr. Gray. I can not S' e that th' y art.
The Chairman. You do not understand, being in charge of that
farm, that that is a part of the policy at all?
Mr. Gray. They take a boy away from you when he gets an interest
in the work, and put in there boys who have made failures in the
country, and it looks to me that it is in the nature of a penalty for a
boy to have to go on the farm. And the better ones would reluctantly
go ther<'; they look at it that v/ay, too.
The Chairman. If you had a larg<r and proper detail you think
you could give some instructions to the boys that would encourage
them to become farmers ?
Mr. Gray. Now, I have been here for a good many years, and as a
rule I do not have any trouble to get along with any of the boys as
as long as I have the number I ask for. But when you can not get the
number it creates a disturbance all around if you try to get as much
work out of a few boys as you would like to get done.
Senator Lane. How many do you think you ought to have ?
Mr. Gray. In harvest time or time of that sort I ought to have
down on m}" farm anywhere from 9 to 12 boys.
Senator Lane. How many acres have you ?
Mr. Gray. One hundred and sev<:^nty-six acres.
The Chairman. Now, in plowing time or seeding time, how many?
Mr. Gray. At times like that I generally like to have a boy for each
plow. Oftentimes I take a plow myself. We have heretofore had
only six head of horses.
Senator Lane. How many boys do you get?
Mr. Gray. Wliy, two, and three, and four in times of that kind.
Senator Lane. I mean in the time of seeding.
Mr. Gray. Seeding time it is Uke that.
Senator Lane. What other help do you have?
]\Ir. Gray. There is no other help.
Senator Lane. Why do you confine your attention to corn and
wheat when this school has hundreds of students who need vegetables ?
Why don't you raise vegetables ?
Mr. Gray. This farm do\\ai here always used to be a truck farm,
and they had so much trouble getting anybody to do the work.
Senator Lane. What kind of work?
Mr. Gray. Hoeing. It takes considerable work. The man they
had there did not seem to be able to manage it, so he cut it out and
said he was going to raise the truck hereafter on this little tract down
here.
Senator Lane. How much have you got in truck?
Mr. Gray. I suppose 3 or 4 acres down here that thoy can truck.
Senator Lane. 1 mean how much do you truck?
Mr. Gray. There is no trucking (k^ne on the farms at all.
Senator Lane. Where do you get your garden stuff?
Mr. Gray. Right do\vii here by the coal house.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1147
Senator Lane. All off of 3 or 4 or 5 acres ?
]\lr. Gray. Yes, sir; outside of the potatoes.
Senator Lane. The potatoes, you raised how many bushels ?
Mr. Gray. 1,189 bushels.
Senator Lane. That is not enough to do the school, is it?
]Mr. Gray. No, sir.
Senator Lane. How many should vou raise ?
Mr. Gray. About 2,000 bushels.
Senator Lane. It would not do it, would it ?
]Mr. Gray. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. How man}' people have you got here ?
Mr. Gray. I would judge 800 or 900 pupils now. During the most
part of the 3'ear there are many of the pupils out m the country.
Senator Lane. Carrots, cabbage, onions — how many onions do
you raise a year ?
I\Ii". Gray. That all comes under the florist over here.
Senator Lane. You do not raise any of them ?
Mi\ Gray. You could raise them. I suppose I could raise them.
Senator Lane. And parsnips? All good to eat?
Mr. Gray. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. How did it use to be here five or six or seven years
ago ? Were you able to get more boys to help you ?
Mr. Gray. Yes.
Senator Lane. When did you drop tliis into a sort of rut here ?
Mr. Gray. That has always been done on that farm — not on that
farm, but they used to have a farm at ^liddlesex.
Senator Lane. How deep can you plow your land ?
Mr. Gray. Eight or nine inches.
Senator Lane. Do you disk?
Mr. Gray. I have a double-action harrow.
Senator Lane. What is your worst pest in the way of weeds ?
Mr. Gray. We have a little ciuack grass there, but that is just in
spots. We have Canada tliistle, and some years we have wold carrot.
Senator Lane. What do you do with Canada thistle ?
Mr. Gray. We are getting rid of it. We keep' it cut oft". There
are just a few patches.
Senator Lane. Is it increasing?
Mr. Gray. No; we do not aim to let it make much growth.
Senator Lane. How long does it take to kill it out that way ?
Mr. Gray. I judge, a long time.
Senator Lane. A hundred years ?
Mr. Gray. I do not know anything about that, but we d<^ not aim
to let it do much harm.
Senator Lane. Are the other farmers here?
Mr. Gray. Yes.
Senator Lane. You keep about eight horses?
Mr. Gray. Four teams; yes, sir.
Senator Lane. What kind (>f jx'ows do you use?
Mr. Gray. Twelve-inch Imperial, wide beam.
Senator Lane. What is your soil ?
Mr. Gray. Limestone.
Senator Lane. Some clay in it ?
Mr. Gray. Clay soil.
Senator Lane. When do you begin to work on it ?
1148 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. Gray. Sometimes in March.
Senator Lane. Do you fall sow, or spring?
Mr. Gray. Fall.
Senator Lane. Does it winter-kill much here?
Mr. Gray. No, sir.
TESTIMONY OF C. K. BALLARD.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. You are the second farmer ?
Mr. Ballard. Yes.
The Chairman. You have only been here a short time ?
Mr. Ballard. Four months.
The Chairman. Where did you come from ?
Mr. Ballard. I came from Colorado down here. My home is in
western New York.
The Chairman. Have you had experience in work similar to that
which you are now doing ?
Mr. Ballard. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. For how long?
Mr. Ballard. Practically all my life.
The Chairman. How many acres are there in the farm you have
charge of?
Mr. Ballard. This campus cuts off some of it, but I believe there
is about 85 acres.
The Chairman. How much did you have in actual cultivation this
last year?
Mr. Ballard. Very little of it. The north side is in pasture. I
should say about 75 to 80 acres.
The Chairman. How much of it is in actual cultivation ?
Mr. Ballard. Eleven acres of alfalfa, about 7 or 8 acres is seeded
down to clover and timothy mixed, I think — clover anyhow.
The Chairman. Who preceded you in charge of this farm?
Mr. Ballard. Mr. Snyder.
The Chairman. 'When did he leave?
Mr. Ballard. He left the day I came.
The Chairman. How many head of stock have you there ?
Mr. Ballard. Two mules and three horses.
The Chairman. Any cows.
Mr. Ballard. The dairyman has charge of those.
The Chairman. Are they on your farm?
Mr. Ballard. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How many cows are there there?
Mr. Ballard. Forty-odd head.
The Chairman. Have you any chickens on your farm ?
Mr. Ballard. No, sir.
The Chairman. How many hogs and pigs?
Mr. Ballard. One hundred and twelve. That varies greatly.
The Chairman. What has been done with those hogs? Have any
of them been sold since you were here ?
Mr. Ballard. I killed 5 yesterday, and some in December; the
29th of December, I beheve,"! kiUed"2.
The Chairman. What was done with the meat from those 7 hogs?
Used at the school ?
r
CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1149
Mr. Ballard. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How many have been sold since you have been
here ?
Mr. Ballard. Ninety-seven.
The Chairman. The policy of the administration then is not to
use the meat products raised on the farm but to sell them in the
market ?
Mr. Ballard. Since I have been here.
The Chairman. Have j^ou been informed as to why that is so ?
Mr. Ballard. No, sir.
The Chairman. Who has supervision or control of your operations ?
Mr. Ballard. The quartermaster, Mr. Kensler.
The Chairman. Have you and he agreed upon a plan of procedure
for tliis year?
Mr. Ballard. He told me I was running the farm.
The Chairman. Have you agreed what you were going to do this
year?
Mr. Ballard. Myself; that is all.
The Chairman. He leaves that to you ?
Mr. Ballard. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What are you going to do ? What are your plans
generally ?
Mr. Ballard. My plans have been to keep it on the lines that it
was. Mr. Friedman told me the man that had been here before me,
his work had been very satisfactory, and he \\'ished me to keep it on
the same Hues and not go into anything that he had not done ?
The Chairman. What is that?
Mr. Ballard. They filled the silo, and raised, with the exception
of 9 acres, all potatoes, and the balance of the farm is for the dairy
and these horses, vdih. the exception of a few acres of pasture for the
hogs.
The Chairman. Don't you think it would be a good plan to make
a practical demonstration farm out of that and teach some of these
boys, especially those who have a disposition to learn it, how to
farm ?
Mr. Ballard. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, most of these boys are hired
out into the country on farms, are they not?
Mr. Ballard. I don't know how manv; I know there is some.
Tile Chairman. Don't vou think it would be for the better inter-
ests of the boys to keep them here at the school and teach them how
to farm? Don't you think that is better than hiring them out for
small salaries ?
Mr. Ballard. As far as that was possible. I don't know how
many would wish to stay. I think it is the best thing for the boys.
The Chairman. How large is your salary ?
Mr. Ballard. $00 a month.
The Chairman. What does the other farmer get ?
Mr. Ballard. I think he gets $(55.
The Chairman. They are paying here, then, in salaries to farmers
about $125 a month and there is practically no demonstration work
being done? Is not that true?
Mr. Ballard. I try to show my detail
The Chairman. What does your detail consist of ?
1150 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. Ballard. Usually about four boys — that is, four in the morn-
ing and four in the afternoon.
The Chairman. Why Avould it not be a good plan to put enough
of this land in your charge in vegetables, and especially potatoes and
crops of that sort, to supply every demand of the school for that char-
acter of food ?
Mr. Ballard. I do not think this is good potato land. Their yield
seems to be about 100 bushels to an acre, which they consider a good
yield. In a potato country I should consider 200 a fan* yield.
The Chairman. You think it would not be profitable, then, to
cultivate land in ])otatoe3 that wo; Id not grow more than 100 bush-
els to the acre? What do thev pav for potatoes here when they buy
them?
Mr. Ballard. I think the retail price is about $1.
Senator Lane. At $1 a bushel for potatoes and 100 bushels to the
acre would pay first rate, wouldn't it?
Mr. Ballard. Potatoes is rather expensive to raise.
The Chairman. Have you investigated to find out the total yield
of that arm last year — the value of the total product of the farm
you have charge of ?
Mr. Ballard. No, sir. They put 12 acres in potatoes
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, those 12 acres of potatoes
yielded more in value than all the rest of the farm?
Mr. Ballard. They did not get 100 bushels to the acre.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, did not those 12 acres of
potatoes yield a greater value than all the rest of the stuff grown on
the farm ?
Mr. Ballard. I would not go so far as that. It would compare
favorably with them.
Tiie Chairman. There would be no difficulty in cultivating these
fanns with skilled labor under your supervision?
Mr. Ballard. No, su\
Tiie Chairman. You could cultivate an area greatly m excess of the
area under your charge, with skilled labor, if you had the opportu-
nity of doing it ?
Mr. Ballard. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And you could cultivate it in any ordinary crops
that would grow in this climate ?
Mr. Ballard. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now, what I do not understand is why a man who
is in the business of farming does not grasp the idea, without even a
suggestion, that if his services are to be valuable to the school he
ought to plan first; that the work that is done on the farm ought to
be for the instruction of the pupils, and that the crops that are grown
there ought to be for the use and benefit of the school. I can not
understand the system that seems to prevail of working these lands
indifferently and of discouraging rather than encouraging the produc-
tion of such food stuffs as may be required.
Mr. Ballard. I think the farmers are ready to do this at any thne.
Th(> Chairman. If you were an expert farmer liere for the purpose
of teaching farming, don't you think you ought to plan out just what
crops you can grow IIktc, how much labor it is gohig to require to do
it, and what instruction may be given to the boys who are in the
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1151
school? You say you have ah-eady been instructed to pursue the
Hnes followed by your predecessor ?
Mr. Ballard. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Have you ever gone to the superintendent and sug-
gested to hini that you could get more return for the land if you were
allowed to plant other crops ?
Ml". Ballard. No, su\
Senator Lane. Have you an idea that if you were left with your
hands free you could take the lands you are using now and get a greater
return ?
Mr. Ballard. I might hi a way, but you see there is that dairy.
That takes practically the whole farm.
Senator Lane. How much milk do you get ?
Mr. Ballard. I could not tell you.
Senator Lane. How many boys do you use ?
Mr. Ballard. I have iiothmg to do with the dairy.
Senator Lane. How much land does the dairy take from you ?
Mi\ Ballard. With the exception of those 1 1 acres that they have
in potatoes, the balance is all devoted to the dairy.
Senator Lane. And you are really cultivating 11 acres of land?
Mr. Ballard. There are 1 1 acres of land devoted to potatoes, and
the balance is devoted to the dauy.
Senator Lane. How much is that?
Ml'. Ballard. Thirty acres, I think.
Senator Lane. What do you make ensilage out of ?
Mi\ Ballard. It was made out of corn; that was before I came.
TESTIMONY OF W. J. EYAN.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. How long have you been dairyman of the CarHsle
School ?
Ml'. Ryan. Smce the 29th of September of this year.
The Chairman. Whom did you succeed ?
Mr. Ryan. I succeeded a boy who was there. Mr. Hardin was
supposed to oversee it, but that boy was put in there to oversee it.
The Chairman. Where are you from ?
Mr. Ryan. I am from Rajnd City, S. Dak.
The Chairman. You were transferred here ?
Mr. Ryan. No; I was neyer in the service; I just took an exami-
nation.
The Chairman. Wlien did you reach here ?
Mr. Ryan. About the 27th. I think it was a Sunday morning.
I went to work Tuesday morning.
The Chairman. Did you have any misunderstanding with the
superintendent upon your arrival here or any controversy?
Mr. Ryan. Shortly after, I did.
The Chairman. TeU us about it.
Mr. Ryan. I went to work Tuesday morning. Tluirsday he came
down and said I was not getting results from the cows. That was
three days afterwards. I told him I did not think I had had a chance
yet, as 1 had only been there three days. "Well," he said, "the
cows are going dry." "Well," I said, "they were pretty dried up
1152 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
when I came." He told me I would have to get better results, and he
would give me four days to do it in.
The Chairman. How many did he detail to help you to take the
milk ?
Mr. Ryan. I was supposed to have five.
The Chairman. Did you have them ?
Mr. Ryan. I had them at the start, but they kept dropping off.
Some was put in the lockup, some ran away, some was drunk. I
generally got down to about three.
The Chairman. Were the l^oys that were required to do the work
under you — was that in the nature of disciphne or punishment to
them %
Mr. Ryan. It seemed to be in the nature of punishment.
The Chairman. It was not done, then, to instruct them or en-
courage them in dairying or anything of that sort ?
Mr. Ryan. No. I heard the boys teU what they did to be pun-
ished. Some was drunk, and some ran away, and some would not
work at the school.
The Chairman. How many cows have you in the dairy ?
Mr. Ryan. We h.ave 48 cows and one heifer.
The Chairman. What do you do ^^dth the milk ?
Mr. Ryan. Thei-e is about 6 gallons or 10 gallons a day comes
down to the school, whole milk : and we separate the other, save the
cream, and send the skimmed milk down to the kitchen.
The Chairman. Is that milk that is obtained in the dairy used at
the school ?
Mr. Ryan. Yes, sir; as far as I know.
Senator Lane. How many cows do you milk?
Mr. Ryan. We are milking 32 now.
Senator Lane. How mucli milk do you get a day ?
Mr. Ryan. We get about 40 gallons a day.
Senator Lane, is that the average %
Mr. Ryan. Yes — no; that is not all the milk — that is the skimmed
milk. We get about 50 to 55 gallons average, the milk I' send to the
school and the other milk, too.
Senator Lane. What kind of cows are you milking?
Mr. Ryan. All kinds mixed up. Some are Durhams, some Here-
fords, some Holsteins, and some Jerseys.
Representative Carter. What kind of bull have you got ?
Mr. Ryan. A little bull, a yearling.
Representative Carter. What kind ?
Mr. Ryan. A Holstein. We had an old Jersey bull before that,
but they are a very poor class of cows. Some have two teats and
some have three teats.
Senator Lane. Have you any garget among them?
Mr. Ryan. Yes. You mean that thick milk ?
Senator Lane. Yes.
Mr. Ryan. Once in a while, some of it. I aim to get it out.
S;>nator Lane. What do you do with your calves ?
Mr. Ryan. We butcher them or save some.
Senator Lane. How did you make out in the five days ? Did the
cows come up on the milk ?
Mr. Ryan. No; our feed we had was very poor.
Senator Lane. What was it ?
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1153
Mr. Ryan. It was oat straw, we had then, the oats cut when it was
ripe. And we had some alfalfa. But they told us to feed that oats
hay, and then the ensilage was very poor at that time.
Senator Lane. Di^l you chop jour hay?
^h\ Ryan. No.
Senator Lane. What kind of barn have you got?
Mr. Ryan. A good barn.
Senator Lane. Good drahiage?
Mr. Ryan. Yes.
Senator Lane. Have you any tuberculosis in the herd?
Mr. Ryan. Not that 1 know of.
Senator Lane. Have they ever been tested ?
Mr. Ryan. Not since I have known them.
Senator Lane. Do you keep a record of your milk ?
Mr. Ryan. Yes.
Senator Lane. Do you keep a separate record of each cow?
Mr. Ryan. We did, back awhile, but the boys got to tearing up
the sheets. I had a lot of boys that I could not do anything with.
I got discouraged, and I could not do anything with them.
Senator Lane. So you are not keeping a record now ?
Mr. Ryan. Not of separate cows now.
Representative vStephens. Have you ever asked for better boys ?
Mr. Ryan. Yes, sir; a good many times.
Representative Stephens. What do they tell you?
Mr. Ryan. They say, ''All right; we will attend to it."
Representative Stephens. How do they attendto it?
Mr. Ryan. The}^ send the same boy over again, or somebody worse,
if anything.
Representative Stephens. You say the boys get drunk?
Mr. Ryan. Yes.
Representative Stephens. Have you any idea where they get the
whisky ?
Mr. Ryan. Some times right in the saloons.
Representative Stephens. Have you ever seen them go into the
saloon yourself ?
Mr. Ryan. No, sir; only what the boys tell me. One boy told me
he went into a saloon.
Representative Stephens. When they work in your dairy do they
work with the school uniform on or citizen's clothes ?
Mr. Ryan. The school uniform part of the time. They wear white
clothes when they milk.
Representative Stephens. Where do you make your butter?
Mr. Ryan. Right there in the millc house adjoining the barn.
Representative Stephens. What do ycu do with the butter you
make ?
Mr. Ryan. We send it to the school.
Representative Stephens. Who gets it in the school here ?
Mr. Ryan. I deliver it to the quartermaster.
Representntive Stephens. And the quartermaster then distributes
it?
Mr. Ryan. Yes; they generally take it right to the kitchen.
Representative Stephens. How much land have you got to run
these cows on ?
35601— PT 11—14 13
1154 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. Ryan. I do not have any land; I just run the cows, but I get
the products from both farms. I get the corn fodder and the oats,
and hay, etc.
Representative Stephens. Do they have any green meadow to
run on ?
Mr. Ryan. Reguhir pasturage ? Yes.
Representative Stephens. How Lirge ?
Mr. Ryan. I judge about 10 or 12 acres, or something lik? that.
Representative Carter. What is the meadow ?
Mr. Ryan. It is a pasturage where wild grass grows; wild native
grass.
Representative Carter. Twelve acres is not enough of this native
grass for 40 cows, is it ?
Mr. Ryan. No.
TESTIMONY OF DR. EUGENE A. NOBLE.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. Doctor, your name was handed me by Mi-. Wetzel,
with those of a number of other gentlemen. He informed me that
you were famiUar with some of the conditions prevailing in the
Carlisle school and an intimate friend of the superintendent.
You are the president of Dickinson College ?
Dr. Noble. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How long have you been at the head of that
institution. Doctor?
Dr. Noble. Three years.
The Chairman. Are you a native of Pennsylvania ?
Dr. Noble. I am not.
The Chairman. What State are you from ?
Dr. Noble. New York State. *
The Chairman. Have you been connected with school work the
greater part of your mature life ?
Dr. Noble. Yes.
The Chairman. Wliere else have you been ?
Dr. Noble. Tlie Women's College of Baltimore, president of the
Women's College of Baltimore.
The Chairman. You are acc^uainted with Supt. Friedman, are
you?
Dr. Noble. Not in the way you represented a few moments ago.
The Chairman. Your name was handed to me, with those of
three or four other parties on this list — Dr. Allen, and Mr. J. W.
Henderson, and the Rev. Mr. Diffenderfer — by Mr. Wetzel, an
attorney whom I chanced to meet this morning, who stated they
would be glad to appear before the commission to make a statement,
and we said we would be glad to have you come.
Dr. Noble. That is what I understand, and it is a voluntary
statement on the part of these gentlemen who come. They have
not been invited by the commission to come and offer testimony
concerning certain specific things.
Representative Carter. How does the commission know that you
know those things ?
Dr. Noble. I am not sure that I do.
Representative Carter. Then why should we in\'ite you ?
CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1155
Dr. Noble. It seems to me that if you are here to get information
there may be certain collateral things it might be well for you to
find out about, but I would not presume to come mthout the invita-
tion of the committee.
The Chairman. You are invited to appear, Doctor; just consider
that as final. We want any information you have that will throw
any light upon the con{htions in Carlisle College, if you desire to
submit a statement of facts that are within your knowledge as to
that. We want all the information that we can get that is germane,
and I had no information from Mr. Wetzel as to any particular state
of facts about which you had knowledge. I merely understood you
were friendly to the institution
Dr. Noble. That is correct.
The Chairman. And I also understood that you were a friend of
Mr. Friedman, and that Mr. Friedman — at least that Mr. Wetzel
thought that Mr. Friedman woidd be glad to have you here. We
would be glad to hear any statement you may make. I do not know
what your idea is. You say you were not iniformed you were invited
by the commission. You were invited in that way, and you are
invited, and we want all the information we can get.
Dr. Noble. Mr. Wetzel called me irp and said there was no invita-
tion from the commission. He thought it might be well for some of
the men of the town to meet the commission and sa^^ what they
thought about the Indian school. And, as one of the citizens of the
town who by ^drtue of his position is regarded as })erhaps contributing
public sentiment, I am perfectly willing to come and make such a
statement as I can about conditions at the Indian school. I have
read no formal charges — ■ —
Senator Lane. Pardon me there. I don't think we understand
one another's position. This commission was appointed b}^ Congress
to investigate Indian affairs throughout the country. It is a joint
commission specially delegated for that pur])Ose.
Dr. Noble. I did not know that.
Senator Lane. Now, as matters arise, where attention is directed
to any particular institution, at the first opportunity that presents
itself, at a few hours' notice, we make a trip and look into it. We
did not know we were coming here imtil about an hour before we
came. So we are here now to find out all we can, and if you have
anything we want to get it from you. It is purely informal; at the
same time it is official. You can understand perfectly well it would
be veiy hard to send notice ahead under those circumstances.
Representative Carter. We are here on official lousiness, making
an investigation of the school, and we are glad to get information
from anybody that has information to give; but we have not any way
in the world to know whether you have information or not unless
you tell us.
The Chairman. Shall I interrogate you, or will you proceed to
make a statement, Doctor ?
Dr. Noble. You go ahead, and after you have aske;I me c^ues-
tions I may want to make a general statement.
The Chairman. What o})portunities have you had of observing
the conditions and the work that is b(nng fk)ne at the Carlisle School ?
Dr. Noble. I have been a freqiu'ut visitor here. The relations
betwe(ni the Indian school and Dickinson College have been intimate
1156 CARLISLE INDL\N SCHOOL.
since I came to Carlisle. Fundamentally those relations are athletic.
There have been times when they were not cordial, but during the
last three years they have been very cordial; and in order to show
good wall, I have been here frequently as a visitor.
The Chairman. How often do you think you have been here ?
Dr. Noble. Oh, I should saj' — jon mean in three years?
The Chairman. Yes, su-.
Dr. Noble. I should say from 15 to 30 times.
The Chairman. What has been the extent of your opportunities
for observation, and what has, in fact, been your observation of con-
ditions ?
Dr. Noble. I have seen the school m their general assembly. I
have seen the different departments of the work of the school. I
have seen them in their dining hall. I have seen them in their
social functions. I have seen them in their athletic contests. I
thmk I have seen them rather generally.
The Chairman. Wliat were the occasions of your visit ? I mean,
what prompted jou to come ?
Dr. Noble. The interest in athletic games, which is general,
prompted that, of course. Then I have been asked over here to
make addresses two or three times, and asked to participate in the
commencement. I have come without invitation, voluntarily, in
order to know the educational value of the work done at the Indian
school. That has been, I think, the chief method of coming, except-
ing when I have come on some special occasion, like then commence-
ment.
The Chairman. What conclusions have you reachetl with refer-
ence to the education value of the work done here?
Dr. Noble. Of course, it must be understood by you gentlemen
that I am not looking at the work solely as a resident of Carlisle. I
am tryuig to estimate the education value of this kind of work. It
is right at hand. There is a general agitation concerning vocational
trammg and that kmd of thing, and I have been interested to see
how it worked here. And I have come over and gone into their
shops and seen what the boys were domg, and tried to get hold of
the educational value of the kind of work they are doing here.
Now, as to my knowledge of it, I think it is mighty good work. I
thmk it is very much better work than in other institutions which
I have visited. There is a coordination between studies and prac-
tical work in shops that I do not find in other places. Of course, I
do not regard conditions in any school as so ideal that they could
not be improved, but I have approved in my own thought and in
public speech the work of the Indian school as it is now being done.
The Chairman. That relates to what constitutes the vocational
training, Doctor ?
Dr. Noble. Take your printing shop here. It has seemed to me
that perhaps that might be a test of the mental quality of these In-
dian boys, and I have been a good many times to see whether they
could read manuscript, set type without too many blunders in spell-
ing, how they could do press work, what their abilities as practical
printers might be, but always with the thought that the printing
was related to their educational training.
The Chairman. What number, approximately, have you observed
that are securing this training in printing?
CARLISLE IXDL\X SCHOOL. 1157
Dr. Noble. I should say there have been perhaps 15 to 20 in the
place at the different times I was there: whether the same group of
students, of course, I would not know. They might hare been the
same or different ones.
The Chairman. Have you visited other shops ?
Dr. Noble. Yes. I have gone in the various other shops and seen
what they were doing, but it has not seemed to me that the thing I
was looking for was as clearly indicated as in the printing shop, but
there has been an attitude of understanding and an air of dihgence.
I do not know the teachers personally, so that I can not call them by
name, but it has seemed to me — of course, I am not discriminating
now against any teacher. It has seemed to me that the quality of
some of the school work I have observed was very inferior.
The Chairman. "What do you mean by the school work?
Dr. Noble. I mean the ability of the teacher to teach.
The Chairman. How does that compare with the capacity of the
pupil to gi'asp, as a rule?
Dr. Noble. Of course, that would raise a very big question. But
it has seemed to me — sizing up teachers — as one does as a matter of
business — that there was not quite as good a gi'ade of teaching ability.
I do not Ivnow the teachers personally, so that I could not say that
the teacher of this is better and the teacher of that is inferior, but I
have not been impressed with the ability of some of the teachers in
their teaching work at the Carlisle School.
The Chairman. Are ^'"ou in any way interested in agriculture or
any of the Idndred arts ?
Dr. Noble. Yes.
The Chairman. What do you think about what has been done
here to teach these boys those subjects?
Dr. Noble. I do not know enough about it to have a definite
opinion. It is one of the things I have not investigated.
The Chairman. You know they have two farms here ?
Dr. Noble. Yes; I have never visited them.
The Chairman. Have you observed the difference among the
pupils ?
Dr. Noble. Yes.
The Chairman. What do you think of that?
Dr. Noble. It seemed to me to be pretty good. Of course, I
know school work well enough to understand there will be breaches
of discipHne, but as I have observed the school in its social functions,
in its athletic contests, in its shop work, and schoolroom work, it
has seemed to me to be pretty good.
The Chairman. Are 3^ou intimately enough acquainted with the
conditions to know how the superintendent feels toward the pupils,
and how they feel toward him, as a rule ?
Dr. Noble. Well, in this particular: Every time I have heard him
speak, either in personal relations or in public, it has seemed to me
he had a rather high conception of his job. He has championed the
Indian sometimes in a way I have thought was very enthusiastic.
The Chairman. Have you received any information of \\ddespread
hostility existing among the pupils toward him ?
Dr. Noble. No: I knew nothing of it.
1158 OABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. You do not know that on some occasions in pub
lie they had jeered and hissed him, and called him "Jew," and names
of that sort ?
Dr. Noble. I did not know until after your representative from
the Indian Department was announced as having come to Carlisle.
That would not be a basis for judgment with me. I think the senior
class of La Fayette College last year walked out when President War-
field rose to speak; but I know President Warfield as a high-minded
educator.
The Chairman. I am asking as a matter of fact. It would not be
a matter of judgment with me to know who was censurable, but it
would reflect upon the conditions as they actually exist here if
throughout the student body there was a feeling that Mr. Friedman
was not in sympathy with them and their work, and did not encour-
age them, and if on divers occasions he had called them "savages."
These facts would disclose a state of feeling between the superintend-
ent and the pupils.
Now, I can say to you. Doctor, that it has disclosed that for many
months there has been a condition here bordering on insurrection
among the pupils. It has manifested itself in acts and marks of dis-
courtesy for the superintendent, and it presents a condition that
must be taken notice of. We are trjdng to find out, and it is a matter
of surprise to me that one who has as much interest in the institution
as you have should not Have known sometliing about it.
Dr. Noble. I knew nothing until the investigator appeared.
Representative Carter. How did you learn it after the investiga-
tor appeared. Doctor ?
Dr. Noble. It was told me by one of the citizens of the town that
such a thing had occurred, and he, as I recall, gave a special reason
for it.
The Chairman. What was it ?
Dr. Noble. That there was some friction in connection with the
administration of the school.
The Chairman. You mean among the employees ?
Dr. Noble. Yes.
The Chairman. Which had prompted or encouraged lax discipline ?
Dr. Noble. So is my inference.
The Chairman. Can you give any more definite information than
that ?
Dr. Noble. No; I do not know the names of the employees here,
excepting, perhaps, two or three. I know Mr. Warner quite well.
Then I have heard the names — I know two others.
The Chairman. But in any event your information is not definite
enough to go into that ?
Dr. Noble. No.
The Chairman. When was your last visit to the school when you
observed the work ?
Dr. Noble. I was here sometime in December; it must have been
toward the end of the month. I had a visitor from somewhere out
of Carlisle, and I brought him over to see the Indian school, and Mr.
Friedman was not here. So I felt as if I had some rights in the prem-
ises, and I walked around with this visitor.
The Chairman. Did you in that way inspect the quarters occu-
pied by the students ?
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1159
Dr. Noble. No, sir.
The Chairman. Have you ever been present while a meal was
being served ?
Dr. Noble. In the dining hall? Yes, sir; last fall.
The Chairman. Did you know that complaints are universal that
an insufficient quantity of food, and especially of bread, is served,
and that those complaints have been extended over a period of sev-
eral months ?
Dr. Noble. I had not heard of it; but I used to be the head of a
boarding school years ago, and such complaints at certain times of
the year were not infrequent.
The Chairman. From your experience, there is no reason why a
schoolboy ought not to have all the bread he wants ?
Dr. Noble. He ought to have all he needs.
The Chairman. There may be good reasons for depriving him of
other things, but not bread. I can state to you, doctor, that it ap-
pears from the testimony of a very large number of witnesses — per-
sons who have observed it, and pupils, and employees of tho school-
that that condition has extended over a very long period, and the
complaint is so widespread and uniform among the pupils as to the
insufficient quantity of bread that there has been no conflict what-
ever in the information that has come to us on that point, and we
have been unable so far to ascertain why that sort of condition
should have occurred.
Dr. Noble. Of course, that information would come from people
more intimately related to the school than any of us on the outside.
The Chairman. Now, when you went around and made that — I
^vill call it inspection, for want of a better term — what places did you
visit?
Dr. Noble. We visited some of the rooms in the school building.
We came over here and saw the gymnasium — this building. We
went into some of the shops; I do not know that I could say just
which shops. We looked around to see what the students were
doing. I did take my friend, who was connected mth an educational
institution, into the printing department, and asked the gentleman
in charge — his name, I think, is Smith — if he would explain to us
just how the students did their work, and that was about the extent
of our visit.
The Chairman. I want to ask you a question that is quite a gen-
eral question, and I do not know whether you will feel like answering
it or not. In your various visits here, and especially on the occa-
sions that you were observing the pupils at work and study, how
were you imjDressed with the general character of the pupils, and
what was their conduct as a whole? Did you see evidences of dis-
order or disquiet?
Dr. Noble. No; I have never seen evidences of disorder. I have
been rather favorably impressed with the behavior of the students as
I have seen them, hero and in town at night gatherings, or at church,
or anything of that sort.
The Chairman. On the whole, you think the conduct of the stu-
dents, so far as you have had an opportunit}" of observing it, has
been commendable ?
Dr. Noble. I have seen nothing objectionable. Senator.
1160 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Senator Lane. This being a school for the general education for
the Indian, and in addition to fit him for vocational work in life, if
some sort of standard can be set as to what ought to be obtained,
everything being considered, there ought to be, then, a certain amount
of result obtained in that direction?
Dr. Noble. There certainly should; but I believe that funda-
mentally it should be a matter of instruction. I tliink the results
should relate fundamentally to instruction.
Senator Lane. He should receive the instruction?
Dr. Noble. He certainly should receive the instruction. Funda-
mentally it is a matter of instruction. I am going to say to your
committee quite frankly that it seems to me there is a weakness here,
I know the Indian is a peculiar educational subject, but it strikes me,
as I look at the work of the school from my point of view, that there
is a weakness here in the teaching of the Indian girls and boys.
Senator Lane. And in so far as it fails therein it lacks fulfilling the
function it should fulfill ?
Dr. Noble. Certainly; that is what our investment is for.
Senator Lane. Now, then, assuming that the Indian is to go out
and become useful as a farmer, as a mechanic, as a printer, whatever
it may be — let us take the dairy; that is a useful vocation, and it is
profitable, too, in some parts of the country. We find, as a matter
of fact, that the boys are not sent there to learn that part of it, but as
a punishment, and regard themselves
Dr. Noble. Will you just make that statement again ? You mean
that the dairy work is not a part of the curriculum ?
Senator Lane. No, sir; they are sent there as a punishment, if
you please, as a penalty, for getting drunk; punished, if you please.
Consequently they come there dissatisfied, do not like it, and then
tear up the milk records.
Dr. Noble. Why, gentlemen, that is surprising to me, because the
chance for agricultural education
Senator Lane. Now, Doctor, and to show that they did not expect
that they ripped up the records of the dairy cows so that the milkman
in charge is unable to keep the record of the milk product of his cows.
That is not a proper spirit. They come, they go; no one stays there
long enough to become proficient. As they become good workers
they are removed and sent somewhere else. In the carpenter shop
it is the same
Dr. Noble. Carpentering is not a punishment?
Senator Lane. No; but the head carpenter tells me they are taken
away from him.
Dr. Noble. Senator, a course that lasts a certain number of
weeks — —
Senator Lane. But no one ever finishes it.
Dr. Noble. But, gentlemen, at the commencement exercises there
is alwa3^s an ocular demonstration of the work that is done.
The Chairman. Have you read the catalogue, Doctor ?
Dr. Noble. Yes.
Senator Lane. They inform mo — I have been through the shops
this morning and they did not know who I was. I asked," Wliere is
your finished workmen?" and they answered, "We have one or two,
but they do not remain long enough." He said, "I could go out there
and build their buildings for them." The tinner told me the same.
CARLISLE IXDIAX SCHOOL. 1161
The blacksmith is in a similar condition, and the farmer told me that
he can not get young men to work for him that are useful to work
anywhere else. It is all down the line, apparently told in good faith.
I went down into the cooking department, and I found for a ration,
and I submit it for your consideration, 5 pounds of oatmeal mush for
100 students to eat; 5 pounds of oatmeal mixed \yith butter and
dished out into 100 equal parts for 100 persons to use.
Dr. Noble. And nothing else ?
Senator Lane. Oh, 3^es; and a half pound of tea, at 20 cents a
pound wholesale, for 100 persons to drink.
Dr. Noble. I vrorder if this is so. Have the superintej] dents of
this school and other Indian schools the power to employ and dismiss
incompetent people ?
Senator Lane. Oh, yes; if there is a complaint; anything they
can justify.
Dr. Noble. One of the things I was informed of within a few
days was this, that there was no possibility of administration here
because the superintendent
Senator Lane. Because the superintendent did not have the
power ?
Dr. Noble. Uiiless he preferred charges that involved moral char-
acter. Is there anything in that ?
The Chairman. We are looking into that.
Senator Lane. Here is an institution, with 600 or 700 children,
and a farm of 300 or 400 acres, and we find as a matter of fact that
it does not raise enough potatoes to eat — a thousand av.d some
odd bushels for some 700 people. And they are raising wheat on
the land. No man who does that can teach farming to anyone.
Dr. Noble. They do not teach farming, from w^hat you say.
Senator Lane. They could not possibly, fi'om that cojiception of
farming. Doctor, I wish you would look into that.
The Chairman. Now, Doctor, at this school this vocational work
is alleged to be taught, and yet when a building is to be constructed
or painted, when brick are to be laid, not one dollar's worth of that
work is done by the student labor; it is all done by outside labor.
At some of the schools we have found it our duty to visit all of that
work is done by student labor.
Dr. Noble. Gentlemen, you greatly surprise me. I thought most
of tliis work being bone here was being done by the students.
The Chairman. Our information is that none of it is done that way.
Dr. Noble. Have you asked why? Are they not competent?
The Chairman. We are trying to find out. People seem to assume
it is done.
Dr. Noble. I assumed it was done.
The Chairman. Do you 'know anything about the moral condi-
tions in this school? Have you looked into that?
Dr. Noble. Yes.
The Chairman. Do they meet with your approval on the whole?
Dr. Noble. I think if certain people leave the Indian boys and
girls alo]ie
The Chairman. Do you know that a great many of the pupils are
in the habit of getting dmnk ?
Dr. Noble. Not a great many.
The Chairman. Howmanv?
1162 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Dr. Noble. I should think an insignificant number.
Kepresentative Carter. Do you know that some of them are in
the guardhouse almost all the time for being drunk?
Dr. Noble. No.
Representative Carter. Do you know that they are being arrested
down in this city ?
Dr. Noble. I have heard of two occasions. I heard that the
liquor was furnished by a notoriously immoral person.
Kepresentative Carter. Has there ])e(n any attempt made to pros-
ecute that person ?
Dr. Noble. I think there has been.
Representative Carter. \\T;iat was the result of it ?
Dr. Noble. I think the person was taken before the local court and
got some kind of a sentence, and was out of town for a while.
Senator Lane. Y.lien we came in here yesterday, we found seven
boys in the lockup
Dr. Noble. Wlio has that in charge ?
Senator Lane (continuing). For drinking and getting drunk.
Dr. Noble. Is there not a man here who is called the disciplinarian ?
Senator Lane. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And there is an assistant disciplinarian.
Dr. Noble. Of course we have to recongize, gentlemen, that there
is a relation between all forces, good and bad, of the town and school;
and some of the people, if they know that Indian boys have a little
money, try to get it from them, and one of the cases that I heard of
^eemed to me just a scheme to hold the boys up for as much money
a s possible. That was over a year ago and it struck me as a rather
ad reflection upon the lack of decency of certain persons of the town.
(An informal discussion which here followed, relating to the subject
of moral conditions in the school, was not reported.)
TESTIMOI^y OF ME. FISKE GOODYEAE.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Goodyear, Congress has created a joint com-
mission composed of members of the Senate and House to investigate
into Indian affairs generally. In the course of our duties we have
come to Carlisle to look into the conditions of the Carlisle Indian
School. We are informed that you are a prominent citizen of the
community, and if you have any information concerning it we woidd
be glad to have such information as you can furnish.
Mr. Goodyear. I shall certainly be very glad.
The Chairman. By way of explanation you may tell us what your
business is and how long you have lived in Carlisle.
Mr. Goodyear. I have lived all my life in Carlisle, and for the past
25 years have been engaged in the retail coal, lime, and sand lousiness.
The Chairman. Are you in any way connected with the Indian
school?
Mr. Goodyear. At one time, after my graduation from the high
school in Carlisle, for a period of five years I was employed at Carlisle
here.
The Chairmax. Have you had an opportunity of observing the
work done in the school and the conditions in the school recentiv?
CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1163
Mr. Goodyear. I have boon very familiar with the school over
since it was organized.
The Chairman. How often have you visited it within tl e hist year
or two, and what w^ere tiie occasions of your visits (
Mr. Goodyear. Perhaps two or three times a year 1 have served
as judge in the debates of the students, attended th,tir athl tic func-
tions, their social functions in the gymnasium, and been generally
intimate with the whole school all my life.
The Chairman. We will be very glad to have you give us your
observations and conclusions as to the conditions prevailing at the
school.
Ml'. Goodyear. Part of the time or during the whole time?
The Chairman. You may take your own choice about that.
Mr. Goodyear. Briefly, under Gen. Pratt, at the time of my con-
nection with the school, tliere was a different atmosphere than there
is to-day, caused by Federal conditions. The first condition is that
the class of students at the mstitution now is entirely different than
that attending the sdiool at that time. Wlien the school was origi-
nated, and duiing a large part of Gen. Pratt's administration, the
Indians came in their blankets, not speaking a word of English or
familiar witli civilized ways to any extent. Now, and for a number
of years past, every boy and girl comes in civihzcd dress, speaking
English, having attended schools somewhere else and familiar with
civilized customs. So there has been a very radical change. I could
make no comparison that would be fair, because the conditions of
the three administrations have been so changed. Maj. Mercer's
administration came between Gen. Pratt's and Mr. Friedman's, so
tliere are three distinct phases I WT)uld be familiar with. If there
is anything along other lines
The Chairman. How does the discipline in the school at present
conipare with that of former administrations ?
Mr. Goodyear. Gen. Pratt's?
The Chairman. Yes; or Mr. Mercer's, either.
Mr. Goodyear. Well, there are three stages in the discipline of
the school, caused by the three reasons that I told you of. In the
first place, the Indians arriving in Gen. Pratt's time were usually
not familiar with Enghsh and with the customs of civilized whites.
Therefore, they had no trouble in keeping them on the school grounds,
and they were very obedient. I know that from my personal expe-
rience at that time. At the time of Maj. Mercer's arrival tliey had
progressed beyond that stage considerably and atldetics had advanced
correspondingly. Under Gen. Pratt athletics had never attained
their present prominence, due to the student's ignorance of athletics.
Under Maj. Mercer they progressed very rapidly. That brought
SCA'eral influences into tlie school wdiich tended to demoralize^ a cer-
tain amount of discipline, and more or less professionalism crept ill
at that time. This institution suffered along vrith the rest. The
discipline commenced to break down about that time to a certain
extent. Then Mr. Friedman came on the scene. He recognized
the serious injury that was done to the scJiool by the introduction
of professionahsm into school athletics and started to eradicate it.
It was a most difhcidt problem to handle, and just how successful
he has been in remedying it I do not know.
1164 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
But the discipline, so far as concerns the conduct of the boys and
girls, their deportment in their social functions and here in tlie gymna-
sium, theii' conduct in the schoolroom, then- conduct and behavior
before the public, in chapel, in the dining room, and around the
grounds, at athletic events, and in their attendance at public events
in Carlisle, has been beyond criticism every time. I never knew of
a disturbance of any kind to be created.
The Chairman. Do you know the state of feeling existing between
the pupils generally and the supermtendent?
Mr. Goodyear. I do not.
The Chairman. You have no information as to any open and
outrageous acts of discourtesy on their part toward him?
Mr. Goodyear. I know of none of my own personal knowledge.
I have heard that there has been some feeUng; just to what extent
I do not know. I understood there was feeling, and I could readily
see many instances; there is no use of my pleading ignorance. You
know as well as I do, I have been familiar with these gentlemen all
my life, or ever since they have been conaected with Carlisle. I
know Mr. Whitwell and Mr. Stauffer ana all the employees. Just
what the condition is between these gentlemen and Mr. Friedman I
do not know.
The Chairman. I asked if you knew the state of feeling existing
between the pupils and the superintendent generally; whether it is
cordial or not ?
Mr. Goodyear. No; it is not cordial as a whole; certainly not.
The Chairman. What do you think that is due to ?
Mr. Goodyear. If I could answer that problem we would solve
the problem. I think part of the feeling is certainly due to disloyal
employees.
The Chairman. Is it a fact, then, that there is a feeling between
the superintendent and many of the employees ?
Mr. Goodyear. I would not sa}" many, but I do know of my own
personal knowledge that there is feeling among some of them. To
what extent I do not know.
The Chairman. Do you know whether or not there is much drunk-
enness among the hoj^s ?
Mr. Goodyear. I know there is some drunkenness.
The Chairman. And has there always been ?
Mr. Goodyear. There has been ever since the school has been
instituted.
The Chairman. Did you ever give attention to the matter, as a
friend of the school, as to how was the best way to remedy that?
Mr. Goodyear. I do not believe they could improve on the meth-
ods alread}^ followed out here to prevent the sale of liquor.
The Chairman. Well, that is not done. They appear on the
grounds here drunk and in the buildings, and of course it is very
demoralizing, ;ind of course it is in violation of the rules and in vio-
lation of authority. One witness v/hom we examined thinks that a
great many of the pupils who come here and afterwards engage in
drinking had acquired the habit before coming, and that there ought
to be more careful supervision exercised as to the admission of pupils
who have the habit. That would seem very reasonable if it is true.
Mr. Goodyear, Yes, I think so.
CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1165
The Chairman. Of course, it must be apparent to anv one that a
school where young ladies and young men study togetlier must be
greatly demoralized by having even occasional drunkenness among
them.
Mr. Goodyear. Certainly. I think that idea is a very good one.
There is no doubt that a great many of these boys and girls have been
attending school under conditions where they have had a large amount
of liberty, and they indulge in liberties that are not permitted here.
The Chairman. Are you in sympathy with the vocational educa-
tional feature of the institution ?
Mr. Goodyear. It seems to me that if you wipe that out you
might as well throw up the school.
The Chairman. Have you familiarized yourself with what is actually
being done here in those regards?
Mr. Goodyear. I have to a limited extent.
The Chairman. Did you know that there is actually nothing being
done toward teaching the students farming or kindred occupations
and that there are practically no efforts being done?
Mr. Goodyear. Why, I think the outing system is the greatest
educational factor any institution can have.
The Chairman. You think the outing system takes the place of
vocational training?
Mr. Goodyear. I certainly do.
The Chairman. I referred when I asked that question to the work
at the school. Did you know that there was actuall}'' no work of
that character being done on the farms ?
Mr. Goodyear. I knew the farms were being run, and I knew they
had a truck patch out here of several acres where they raised the
vegetables for the institution.
The Chairman. Do you think it would be practicable to take these
farms and give instruction to quite a large number of these boys who
may have to make a living by farming in the best method of pro-
ducing crops and the best kind of crops to be produced ?
Mr. Goodyear. I think it would be a very wise idea. I do not
think that idea has been developed as far as it should be.
The Chairman. It would seem that the farms ou^ht to be made to
produce enough ordinary food products to supply this school. Prac-
tically nothing is being produced. Now" in other vocational branches,
take bricklaying and things of that sort that are supposed to be taught;
it would seem that by this time there ought to be a corps of boys
here who could construct buildings; that is, do the actual work .
Mr. Goodyear. I understand they do. The cement work has
largely been done by the boys. Their repair work
The Chairman. My information is that most of that work is paid
for.
Mr. Goodyear. Not to my knowledge. They have a man here, Mr.
La ma son
The (iiAiRMAN. They have two farmers here and a dairyman, all
teaching farming and dairying, and yet it ap])ears that the boys are
sent to the farm as a kind of penalty; that is, when they get bad they
make them oo to work on the farm.
Mr. Goodyear. Really, I do not tlnnk that is always correct. You
know this, that any boy will look upon being sent to the farm as pun-
ishment. I was born on the farm, and when my father wanted to
1166 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
punish me lie would send me to the garden to hoe weeds; that is, not
always as a punishment.
The Chairman. Do you know whether or not that is the system?
Mr. Goodyear. 1 do not; I l;now that under Gen. Pratt that was
not the system. A certain number of boys had to be detailed for that
work. They made out a schedule so that a certain number of boys
would get there at one time, and they were relieved.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, the detail for the farm work
ought to include quite a number of boys. If it appeared that quite a
number of boys were apparently detailed all the time, but that the
detail was limited to a very small number of different boys, that
system would not be calculated to accomplish anything so far as
training in agriculture was concerned ?
Mr. Goodyear. No, sir.
The Chairman. The athletic work of the school seems to be up
to a high standard ?
Mr. Goodyear. It was not for several years.
The Chairman. It has rather overshadowed the academic work,
has it not ?
Mr. Goodyear. I might say there, gentlemen — and I am really
and truly actuated by the best interests of this institution; we like
Carlisle; we admire the institution; we do not want any harmful
thing to be done against the school that is not fair. We want every-
thing to come out that is true and every criticism the school deserves
we want made, but we do not want any criticisms made that it does
not deserve.
The Chairman. That follows as a matter of course. That is all
outside the record, because nobody would want to make any unjust
criticism of any public institution.
Mr. Goodyear. No, but some people will. What was your
question ?
The Chairman. I asked if the athletic feature of the school had
not overshadowed the academic?
Mr. Goodyear. No; and I want to say in justice to Mr. Friedman
that Maj. Mercer made greater efforts to round up athletes than any
superintendent ever at Carlisle.
Repre?entative Carter. Did he have an athletic association ?
Mr. Goodyear^ No, he had not. He had no athletic association,
but he made a great effort to round up competent athletes, just like
the other colleges were doing at that time. He went after them and
got them here, and thus the new and undesirable element that I
referred to awhile ago entered Carlisle.
Mr. Friedman, when he came to Carlisle, saw that situation and
knew that he had to do something with that element. Under Maj.
Mercer's administration he made special rules for those boys as to
living in the athletic quarters. They did not have to observe the
ordinary laws of the school; they went to town when they pleased.
Mr. Friedman saw that that was demoralizing the entire outfit of
boys, because the large boys said, ''If these boys in the athletic
quarters do those things we can do them." And he started to weed
that element out. In addition to that he realized it was not a fair
way to handle the athletic fund and he organized an athletic associa-
tion. He also established eligibility rules, so that a boy when he
plays four years on the first team is not eligible to play any longer.
I
CABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1167
Under the other administrations there were no ehgibihty rules and
the boys played just as long as they wanted to.
Representative Stephens. Are you aware of the fact that they
used to have a farming department here where they had a regular
teacher of agriculture, and that that has been dropped within the
last three or four years ?
Mr. Goodyear. To the best of my recollection that has been
dropped.
Representative Stephens, Are you aware, also, that the harness
shop that they used to run here in Gen. Pratt's time has also been
dropped ?
Mr. Goodyear. Yes; for tlie reason they had no place to dispose
of the harness.
Representative Stephens. Have you also been informed that the
Indian art department has been abolished — basket making and blend-
ing the Indians' art with the art we have at the present time ?
Mr. Goodyear. I understand that certain features of it have been
dropped. Painting and certain features of it have been retained, I
believe, under Mrs. De Corah and Mr. Dietz.
Representative Stephens. Are you aware that telegraphy is no
longer taught here, or photography?
Mr. Goodyear. No.
Representative Stephens. And horticulture is not taught here
at all?
Mr. Goodyear. No; I did not know that.
Representative Stephens. Do you know of any reason why they
sjiould not teach horticulture ?
Mr. Goodyear. No; I think it ought to be taught.
Representative Stephens. And do you know of any reason why
they should not raise potatoes enough here to supply the school, and
garden vegetables of all kinds ?
Ml-. Goodyear. I know of no reason at all why they should not be.
Representative Stephens. Have you ever been present in the din-
ing room at any time when meals were being served ?
Mr. Goodyear. I have been; yes.
Representative Stephens. Do you know whether there is any com-
plaint of not getting enough to cat?
Mr. Goodyear. No.
Representative Stephens. And especially bread ?
Mr. Goodyear. I have not heard a complaint.
Representative Stephens. There is a bakery shop here?
Mr. Goodyear. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Is there any reason why there should
not be sufficient bread ?
Mr. Goodyear. Only lack of efficient management.
TESTIMONY OF REV. GEOEGE M. DIFFENDERFER.
Tiie witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. You are a minister, are you ?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Ycs, sir: a clergyman of the Lutheran Church.
The Chairman. How long have you been stationed at Carlisle ?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Fourtccu years.
The Chairman. Are you interested in the Carlisle Indian School?
1168 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Yos, sir; I have been ever since I came here.
The Chairman. Have you any official connection with it ?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I Can hardly call it official connection. I was
chaplain of the school under Gen. Clapp and Maj. Mercer, and part of
the time under Mr. Friedman.
The Chairman, Were you a salaried officer ?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Well, now, yes and no, I will have to answer
that. I was selected by Gen. Pratt to take cliarge of the afternoon
service on Sunday afternoon, and for three years we had all the chil-
dren, both the Protestant and the Roman Catholic children, and then
we divided them, letting the Roman Catholic children hold the service
in this room with the priest, and we had the Protestant children en-
tirely and the nonchurch-going children at the afternoon service in
the chapel, for which I was paid $5 a Sunday out of the athletic funds
of the school.
The Chairman. Do you know how they came to charge you out of
the athletic fund ?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I do uot kuow how it was.
The Chairman. In any event, that was the arrangement?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Ycs ; the checks that I got came through Mr.
Miller, who had charge of the atheltic funds.
The Chairman. How long has it been since you performed services
in the nature of those 'i
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. For 10 years I did that. Just three years ago,
owing to other duties which I had taken on, I asked Mr. Friedman
to relieve me from that work, and since that time we have been
taking our turns; that is, the Protestant ministers in the town and the
Roman Catholic priests.
The Chairman. Do all of them serve?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Ten of them, I think.
The Chairman. And each one of them gets $5 an afternoon?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Yes, sir. I want to say furthermore, if you
will pardon me, that during these 10 years I edited the first page of the
weekly paper for them. I wrote the little articles on success, and
progress, and interests of tho students, etc., and little excerpts of
that kind. And I have likewise edited the catalogue for the school
up until Mr. Friedman came. I have not done that since his time.
The Chairman. Now, Mr. Diffenderfer, we would be very glad to
have you make any statement that you think you should make, from
your observation of the Carlisle School and your views regarding the
work that it is doing.
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. May I say further that 12 years ago, when Gen.
Pratt had charge of the school, I was sent by Gen. Pratt into the north-
west to visit a number of reservations and Indian schools, the chief
object being to make a report on what became of tho children who
had been educated here, and at the same time secured students for the
school, and I have visited several T-eservations in the northwest, so
that I know something first hand of Indian life.
The Chairman. How long did you stay on each reservation ?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Well, somctimcs for a week; sometimes for
only a few days.
Representative Carter. How long were you on the trip ?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I was gouc about eight weeks; a little over
eight weeks, I think. I started at Vermilion Lake, and went on to
CARLISLE INDL\N SCHOOL. 1169
White Earth and Fort Belknap, and then on to the Colville Reserva-
tion, and back to Fort Berthold.
Representative Carter. Js that the only opportunity }(ni have had,
Doctor, to observe the Indian ?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. The Indian on the reservation; yes; except
j)assmg through sections where they were.
The Chairman. I will ask you to make a statement of the result
of your observation of the Carlisle School, giving any suggestions you
have to offer for its advancement or improvement.
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Well, I havc been ui touch with the work here
rather intimately for all these 14 years, and of course have had an
opportunity to observe conditions. Now, I feel that the progress of
the school has been marked since Mr. Friedman has taken charge here.
Representative Carter. You mean you think the school has
unproved ?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. It has im])roved; I mean in this sense, that
there was no coordination between the educational system and the
industrial system when Mr. Friedman came here. Gen. Pratt and J
talked somewhat about those mattere, and Maj. Mercer and I talked
about them; and in edituig the catalogue one year we tried to get the
one to coordinate with the other, so that, for instance, n:e:hanical
drawing would help the young man in the shop and the teaching part
of the agricultural feature would help the young man on the farm.
Representative Carter. Have they any agricultural department
here now ?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I do not think there is an agricultural teacher
here now. I do not think there lias been the last year. There was
an agricultural teacher here until about a year or so ago.
Representative Carter. Do you thmk the stopping of that has
improved the school ?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. No ; I would say it has not. I would think
that the coordination of that education is an essential, and if they do
not have the preliminary training through the agriculture teacher
they will not have the benefit of that on the farm. I would say that
that is not the best thing for the school. What I mean to say is that
the general plan of work as Mr. Friedman worked it out and as I
knew it, because I went over it with him at different times — that he
had the system pretty well worked out.
Representative Carter. The harness-making department has been
stopped ?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Ycs, sir; it was stopped about two years ago.
Representative Carter. And telegraphy has been stopped ?
Mr, DiFFENDERFER. I did uot know that that had been stopped.
I had not been in that room for the last six months.
Representative Carter. And jihotography, did you know that had
been ?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. YeS.
Representative Carter. And Indian art?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Indian art; yes; that is, so far as the studio
was concerned. Indian art in t]ie other department is surely going
on, is it not. under Mr. Dietz?
Representative Carter. No; Mr. Dietz teaches pamting. What
do you know, Doctor, about the discipline of the school now '.
35601— PT 11—14 1-4
1170 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Well, I liavc observed in recent years that
the material that is commo^ hero m the student body has not been
perhaps of the same type that we had been getting before — that is,
more of that element has eome in that seemed to be crude; that did
not have very much painting in other schools before they came here.
Of course, I realize that discipline in a school of this kind is a peculiar
problem. I happened to be interested in several other mstitutions,
and I know we have to deal with the same problems, and I know we
do not have the same elements in the child or the pupil that we have
here at this school.
Now, the efficiency of discipline, as I understand it, depends very
largely on your help. I have noticed the frequent changes of assist-
ants in this school in the last 14 years has always broken up the dis-
cipline. Since Mr. Friedman has come here a very strenuous effort
has been made to break up the bootlegging.
Representative Carter. Have they had any success at all ?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Ycs ; they have broken it up.
Representative Carter. How many have they sent to the peni-
tentiary ?
Ml'. DiFFENDERFER. I kllOW of twO CaSCS.
Representative Carter. Where they have gone to the peniten-
tiary.
Ml". DiFFENDERFER. Ycs ; oiie of a woman and one of a man.
Representative Carter. Convicted here in Carlisle ?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. No ; coiivictcd hi the Federal court in Sun-
Representative Carter. And they are now in the penitentiary ?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I do uot kuow what the sentences were.
Representative Carter. How long ago was that ?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I suppose two yoai's now.
Represesentative Carter. Have there been any con\'ictions since
then ?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I do iiot kuow that there have.
Representative Carter. What do you know of efforts to convict
them since then ?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I kuow tlioy liavc fought hard to convict
them. I know there is a colored lady m this town, Mrs. Charlotte
Strang— she was convicted and sentenced vdthin a year. There
also was a man here from the State of Washuigton convicted in our
local court, and I did mterest myself in his behalf, because the
fellow was a stranger here, although his family were here ; and after
he was sentenced by the judge to pa}' a fine and he held the sentence
of imprisonment over him, I went before the judge and asked him
to let him off on the imprisonment provided he would go back to
Portland, Oreg., immediately.
Representative Carter. Has drunkenness increased or decreased
in the school ?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Now, I would say that drunkenness has
increased the last few years, at least so far as it is visible. I preached
for these childi-en a week ago last Sunday, and I told them what I
had seen the night before — two Indian boys, intoxicated, commg into
the place of business where I was sitting, about half past 9 o'clock.
Representative Carter. That seems to be ratlier a common thing,
does it not ?
CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1171
^fr. DiFFENDERFER. It is moro coiiniKiii than it used to be, not-
witlistiinding the fact that Mr. Frieihnau has put forth efforts to
stain]) it out.
Representative ('ARTER. What do you attribute tliat to, Doctor?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. 1 attribute thsit to the fact that tlie discipline
unch^" the present reghne is not carried on the way it sliould ])e and
the way it has been before. 1 was one who op])osed ])itterl3^ the
taking up of the military discipline here, as ]\Ir. Friedman knows. I
told him so time and again.
Xow, the inefficient character of the disci])line — I have had girls
living m my house as servants, and I had the best service I ever had
from this school, but I ha.d the fight of my life with the boys coming
to the house. 1 knew the rules of the institution and lived up to
them, and so did my wife, and we took the Indian gnl with us every
time we went away, and yet tlie laxity of the discipline on the part
of the disciplmarian allowed some of the boys to come to town on
off hours, which was contrary to the rule. And it was just by the
skm of our teeth that we escaped trouble.
Representative Carter. Between the boy and the girl ?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. Between the boy and the girl.
Reiiresentative Carter. Do you know anything about the stand-
ard of morality of the scliool, Doctor?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I kuow uo morc than what comes through
hearsav, very largely. I did help several persons during Maj. Mer-
cer's incumbency. He had a case of immorality here, and the
young people confessed, and I married them and sent them away.
Re])resentative Carter. Do you know of any cases of girls be-
coming immoral during Mr. PYiedman's administration ?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. No.
Representative C/ARTer. What would you think if we told you
there were 32
The Chairman. Thirty-two girls ex])elled for immorality.
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I would tliiiik that was a very large percent-
age. This girl that J s])oke of, that was under Maj. Mercer's adminis-
tration.
Representative Carter. I was speaking of Mr. Friedman's ad-
ministration.
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. 1 kuow nothing about anything of that sort
in Mr. F"rie(hnan's administration at all.
Representative Carter, "i'ou do not know anything about any
comjdaints that are made with relation to the food that is served to
the children ?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I liavc iicvcr heard of anv comi^laint, and I
have been in the dining room hundreds of times when meals were
served, and I have never seen anything but plenty.
Representative Carter. Has it ever come to your * observation
that the children did not get enough bread, and that they made
considera])le trouble about not getting enough food to eat ?
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. No ; I have never heard of that, and I never
saw it in the suppli* s, because I have been through the supply house.
Re])resentative Carter. I am talking about the amount furnished
to the pupils.
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I have been through the supply house, and
the supply is there.
1172 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Representative Carter. I know that is a common complaint in a
boarding school, but this has become very general and persistent.
Mr. DiFFENDERFER. I have never heard any complaint about the
food here, not in the 14 years I have been here.
TESTIMONY OF DE. A. R. ALLEN.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. You arc a physician?
Dr. Allen. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Are you the school physician ? Or have tliey
another one ?
Dr. Allen. I use to be. They have had a substitute here since
the 1st of January.
The Chairman. Who is he?
Dr. Allen. I think his name is Kendtorff.
The Chairman. Were you the physician until he came here ?
Dr. Allen. Yes; from the time Dr. Shoemaker left in 1910.
The Chairman. I presume then you are familiar in greater or less
degi'ee with the health conditions that prevailed iin the Carlisle
School up until that time ?
Dr. Allen. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How^ often were you called to visit the school?
Dr. Allen. I visited it every day, except Sunday, except once
that I was on the sick list and once I had an accident, but during that
that time I visited every day in the week, unless I happened to go
away to the State medical society or something of that kind.
The Chairman. What hospital facilities is the school provided
with?
Dr. Allen. At the present time the hospital facilities of this school,
I suppose, are better than the hospital of any school in the service.
The Chairman. Wliat is its capacity and equipment?
Dr. Allen. There are 40 or 50 beds, including the beds on the
balconies and hi the two or three private rooms. That is the bed
capacity. There are two bathrooms and toilet rooms for the use of
the ghls' ward upstairs, and there are two additional toilets m the front
part of the building for the use of private rooms. For each w^ard
downstaii-s there is a bathroom and toilet, and the nurse, I thmk,
has her private toilet and bathroom, as does the matron.
Now, in addition to that, wdien I came to the school they had an
operating room about 8 by 10 feet, with very small lights, and a cen-
tral light. Wlu n Dr. Shoemaker was here I was called out to perform
an operation on a pus case for appendicitis. I said to Dr. Shoe-
maker, if you wall pardon me the expression, "It is a devil of a place
for a man to operate." There w^as always a great deal of dust
around, and it was liii})le to get into the opening, and it w^as dan-
gerous. I performed the operation, however, and the man got w^ell.
After I got out I went to Mr. Friedman, and I said, "This is the
worst proposition I ever saw^; it is a disgrace to the school. You
have an X-ray apparatus downstairs, and this room is readily dark-
ei ed. Will you allow m(> to make some changes?" He gave his
consent, anel I took the sitthig room anel fitted that up as an operating
room, anel I changed that o])eratii)g room i to an X-ray room, wliich
h(^ allowed me to do.
CAKLISLE INDL\N SCHOOL. 1173
I also found quite a number of cases of appendix trouble developed,
and the nurse refused to run the cold sterilizer they had here. It was
run by gasohne, and she was afraid to run it. 1 said it was a risky
thing. I said, "Make a requisition and see whether the office will
give you a new sterilizer, and give you some new instruments, etc."
So we did it, and they have a very good operating room and X-ray
room there at the present time.
Incidental!}", in addition to that, there was quite a good deal of
trouble wdth the boys coming in there to the liospital. making excuses
to come to the dispensary. Of coui-se, you know wliat that means.
The boys and girls would make an arrangement to both get there at
the same time to meet each other. We talked that over, and eventu-
ally came to the conclusion that tliere should be a dispensary for the
girls' quarters and one for the bo^^s' quarters. Those are the hospital
facilities, in a general way. I want to say that they are thoroughly
equipped.
The Chairman. What are the principal diseases that affected these
children during your administration i
Dr. Allen. Quite a number of cases of trachoma, which I did not
know any more about than the man in the moon when I first came
out here, but I very soon got on to it.
The Chairman. Did you stamp that out pretty well ?
Dr. Allen. We got it under control. I said to Mr. Friedman,
''I don't know anything about the pupils' eyes. I would like to have
somebody come out here and size the thing'^up.'' So they got a man
from town, and he said it was either tubercular or syphilitic; but that
did not strike me as being plausible, because I could not find any
indications of tuberculosis or syphihs. I sent some of them to the
city, and they were fitted with glasses and sent back. Finally Dr.
White came around and found we had a very great amount of
trachoma.
The Chairman. What proportion ?
Dr. Allen. Some 70 to 75 per cent of them had it in one of its
phases.
Representative Carter. When was that. Doctor ?
Dr. Allen. In 1910, when they made that trachoma investigation.
The Chairman. Then, how did you handle it after that ?
Dr. Allen. W^e followed the directions of Dr. White — had daily
treatments; washed them out; scrubbed them out; sandpapered
them — —
The Chairman. When you finished what proportion or percentage
of the pupils had it?
Dr. Allen. Well, I ought to say this to you. You gentlemen
know tliat when you have had trachoma once jou never get rid of it;
but the eyes of tiie students here are in mucli better condition than
they were before.
The Chairman. You do not tliink there are approximately 70 per
cent of the pupils now affected with trachoma?
Dr. Allen. No, I do not say that; but I want to say to you that
when I was here as a visiting physician those cases were treated in the
dispensary, and 1 did not visit them. I could not tell you, but I do
not think that there is that much liere at the present time.
The Chairman. Do you find muc'a tuberculosis among the pupils?
1174 CARLISLE INDL\N SCHOOL.
Dr. Allen. Quite a number of cases have been sent in from the
West. Very little tuberculosis develops here in the school, but the
majority of cases of tuberculosis in my connection witli the school were
tubercular when admitted.
The Chairman. That is, they had it before tliey came here?
Dr. Allen. They had it when tliey came.
The Chairman. Do you know whether or not a survey of the school
was ever made to determine how many of the pupils were tubercular I
Dr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. Wliat was the result ?
Dr. Allen. There was an investigation — a close investigation — ■
made by the Marine Hospital Service — the Public Health Service.
The gentleman was here during my administration, and he found
about six marked cases which I already Imew of, and several incipient
cases which I already knew of. At the same time I had had two or
three admitted to the sanitarium for treatment. There is not a large
number of tubercular cases. Then we kept tab on them by daily
weights. At the same time, after I came here, I found in the outing
system that there was no method of keeping tab on the outing
students, and I got up a form and had them give a bimonthly report
in regard especially to their eyes, weight, and cough, so I could keep
in touch with tliem.
The Chairman. What was your salary while j^ou were school
physician ?
Dr. Allen. I did not come out here for the salary, my dear sir.
The Chairman. What did they pay you ?
Dr. Allen. $60 a month.
The Chairman. It was inadequate. Do you know what the
present physician gets ?
Dr. Allen. $1,400. I came here because I liked the work.
The Chairman. And you could do it in conjunction "uath your
regular work ?
Dr. Allen. Yes; with the resident physician who was on the
f round I could do that. I want to make this statement: I have been
ere quite a number of years, and when I came here I found quite a
number of cases of tubercular glands. Through my personal friend-
ship with Dr. John B. Deever I started the use of tubercular injec-
tions of glands. If you gentlemen just keep your eyes open as you
walk around tlie grounds you will find very few of them on the grounds.
I reported that before the State Medical Society a few years ago, and
my report has been abstracted in the medical journals.
I want to say to you tliat my associations here in the school, so far
as Mr. Friedman is concerned, were such that he seemed to — and did
every time I wanted anything to better the health of the pupils of
this school — come to time as well as he could, when he could get the
consent of the Indian Office to do so.
The Chairman. It was at your suggestion that the hospital was
fitted up ?
Dr. Allen. The hospital is better equipped to-day than our hos-
pital at Carlisle. It is equipped to do general and special work,
abdominal work, and work on tonsils and adenoids. There are quite
a number of adenoid and tonsil cases here, giving the chihh-en trouble.
Taking them to the city made quite a good deal of trouble. Through
my association with physicians in the city they were operated on
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1175
without cost, except for the car fare, but it was quite an expense to the
school, anil I said to Mr. Friedman — I beheve Mr. Abbott was here —
I said, ''If I had a few instruments I could reheve the school of this
expense." Mr. Abbott said, "If you will send in a requisition I will
let you have them," and I have been operating on the adenoid and
tonsils since that time.
The Chairman. Have you any particular facts that you want to
communicate to the commission ?
Dr. Allen. I have been connected with this school three years and
a half. I do not want you to understand that I am knocking the
civil service, but t!ie man who occupies the position of superintendent
of a scjiool of this kind and has not the choosing of his employees,
and lias thrust upon him a lot of incompetent men who will refuse to
do their work, or to do it properly — he is going to liave trouble aU the
time he is here.
The Cil\irmax. In that connection, do you know the state of feel-
ing between the superintendent and the employees ?
Dr. Allen. There is this about it — and I was very closely associated
with Mr. Friedman — I am glad to say to you that he and I were very
good friends here. I suppose I was in the office three times a week
to talk over the situation as to the general health of the pupils of the
school, and I have always found — sitting in there and listening as
the other wants came in — that there was always more or less incom-
petency connected with this school for which he had to be responsible.
The Chairman. Can you be a little more specific about that ?
Dr. Allen. I am going to report one instance.
The Chairman. The only purpose we have in asking these ques-
tions is, of course, to get at the facts.
Dr. Allen. It was a case that affected the health of the school.
They got a new dairyman here a short time ago. I think the Agri-
cultural Department sent a man down here to investigate, and he made
his report as Mr. Friedman submitted it. A short time ago, probably
about two or three months before I left the school, there were a
number of cases of indeterminate forms of fever which I would
classify, without microscopical analysis, as a variant of typhoid.
I went around and investigated conditions around the buildmgs,
and I found no cause for it. Finally I got into my car and drove
down to the dairy, and I took the resident physician along. I went
in. I do not think I ever saw a filthier place hi my life. It was
absolutely covered with filth. You could not walk tln'ough the dairy
without getting your shoes soiled. I went into the milk-house and
found it filthy. I found the cans exposed to all the dust ajid dirt
blowing across the field. And I simply ripped him up the back
good and proper. I told him I thought it was absolutely contempti-
ble, the condition of his cattle, the condition of the stable, and the
condition the milk must naturally be in. I came up to the school —
I always had some pupils on the milk treatment, and I took them
off", and I wrote a report to Mr. Friedman and submitted it to him.
The Chairman. I suppose your attention was attracted to that by
reason of its relation to the question of health ?
Dr. Allen. Yes. I was raised on a farm, and even in the old
days of ;^5 and 40 years ago our stable never looked as dirty as that,
and this is a nice concrete stable. And he is still down there. Ho
is respon^iible for a man "f that kiiid.
1176 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Roproscntative Carter. What action did ])r. Friodmau take?
Dr. Allen. He sent it to Washington, as lie had to send the agri-
cultural report to Washington.
Representative Carter. What occurred then ^
Dr. Allen. I do not loiow, sir. Notlung has been done about it.
That man is still there.
It is a^\'fullT hard for a man to be responsi])le for an incompetent
employee, and it is miglity hard for a doctor to keep patients well in
an institution where he gets infected milk.
Is there anytliing else you gentlemen would like to ask ?
Representative Carter. Doctor, do you know anytliing about the
general feeling of the students toward ]\Ir. Friedman and Mr. Fried-
man's feeling toward them '(!
Dr. Allen. I do not know that I know the feeling of the students
toward Mr. Friedman, because in the position I have been in I have
never sounded the position of the subordinate against the superin-
tendent; but I do know Mr. Friedman's position to the students, so
far as he has personally expressed it to me, as in our talks in the office,
has always been of the very best and kindest.
Representative Carter. Have you ever heard of any general
insubordination in the school ?
Dr. Allen. No; I have not.
Representative Carter. Have you ever heard of any drunkenness
among them ?
Dr. Allen. There is drunkenness among the students in the insti-
tution, and has been ever since tliis school has been established.
Representative Carter. Has that increased or decreased ?
Dr. Allen. Decreased.
Representative Carter. You are sure of that, are you?
Dr. Allen. Absolutely sure; because I am informed
Representative Carter. How many boys are there in the guard-
house now for drunkenness ?
Dr. Allen. Why, I do not know.
Representative Carter. How many in the city jail?
Dr. Allen. I do not know.
Representative Carter. How do you know it is decreasing ?
Dr. Allen. I do not see so much of it on the streets. I am only
spealdng from observation.
Representative Carter. Do you know anything about the morality
of the students ?
Dr. Allen. Nothing, except what has come under my personal
observation at the hospital. There have been two or three girls
pregnant. It did not occur at the school. One of them came from
the reservation pregnant, one from the outijig system, and, I tliiiik,
another one. I understood during my administration over at the
hospital there were a couple of cases where a girl shd do\\^i into the
basement during the night and met a boy. What the girl's name
was or what the boy's name was I do not know.
Representative Carter. What would you think if Ave told you
there were 32 cases of immorality since Mr. Friedman has been here ?
Dr. Allen. Not nearly as many as when Gen. Clapp was here.
Representative Carter. Does that afford a reason for it ?
Dr. Allen. There is a reason, to my mind.
Representative Carter. We should be glad to know it.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1177
Dr. Allen. I am not speaking against the race as a whole, but
you take the Indian boy and girl that come from the reservation,
not thorough!}' covered over with the veneer of civihzation, with
notliing to restrain their passions, and bring them under the cn-\aron-
ment of civihzation, ana you are going to have those things occur
regardless of who is superintendent, discipUnarian, or matron.
Keprosontative Carter. What opportunity have you had to ob-
serve the Indian in his native state ?
Dr. Allen. I was out on the plains in 1883, in and about the
Rosebud Agency. I was a cow-puncher for a while.
Representative Carter. How long did you stay there?
Dr. Allen. I was there a year.
Representative Carter. Your opportunity, then, to observe the
morals of Indians has not been great ?
Dr. Allen. Except here at this school.
Representative Carter. I have had abundant opportunity to
observe them, and I do not think that in the civilized world t]ie\' have
an equal as to morals.
Dr. Allen. That may t)e true.
Representative Carter. I understand there was a petition circu-
lated sajdng that everythhig was all right at Carlisle, or words to that
effect
Dr. Allen. I helped get that petition up, Mr. Carter.
Representative Carter. And that lU) investigation was needed.
Dr. Allen. I do not know that it said that.
Representative Carter. And censuring one of the Congressmen for
:ui investigation being ordered.
Dr. Allen. I do \rish you would come into my office just about 10
minutes before you go away.
Representative Carter. There is nothing to prevent you from
sa^'ing anything here.
Dr. Allen. There are some things connected with that that I
would undertake
Representative Carter. Let me ask you a question: Do you think
an institution where 82 girls have been ruined during the space of
time that Mr. Friedman has been here is all right?
Dr. Allen. I do not think you could put a superintendent in this
school, Mr. Carter
Representative Carter. You could answer that cjuestion yes or no.
Dr. Allen. I am going to answer my way. I do not think you
could put a superintendent in this coeducational school and surround
him with the subordinates he has, ^\^th the same subordinates, that
the same thing would not occur.
Representative Carter. Do you think, then, that these 32 cases
of immorality is just about the average?
Dr. Allen. No; I do not say so.
Representative Carter. I understood that from your statement.
Dr. Allen. I said this, if you will pardon me. I said that if you
put any otlier superintendent here and the same kind of subordinates
under him the same thing would occur.
Representative Carter. Well, under such condi'tions, tlien, that
woulfl be just about the average?
Dr. Allen. If he had subordinates that were not dohig their duty.
1178 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Representative Carter. Do you think the subordinates are not
doing their duty ?
Dr. Allen. I do not think so; no, sir.
Representative Carter. Can you give us their names?
Dr. Allen. I have given you one instance.
Representative Carter. One man could not cause all this.
Dr. Allen. I am giving you something that I know positively,
because it came under my own observation. I can not say to you
that Mr. McKeen is not a good disciphnarian and that he does not
do his duty, because I have no means of knowing it, nor can I say
that Mr. Whitwell is not a good teacher, because 1 do not know how
he teaches. You are asking me
Representative Carter. Certainly; I am asking you for facts.
Dr. Allen. That is right, and I am giving you the one absolute
fact that I have come in contact ^\dth.
Representative Carter. You say it is a fact that there is a large
amount of incompetency among the subordinates, do you ?
Dr. Allen. I believe so; I can not put my finger on it. I have
put my finger on one case.
TESTIMONY OF MR. J. W. HENDERSON.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. What is your business, Mr. Henderson ?
Mr. Henderson. I am an attorney, a member of the bar of Cum-
berland County.
The Chairman. This is a commission of Members of Congress,
looking into conditions at Carlisle. If you have any definite infor-
mation as to the conditions, we would be glad to have you state it
and do it as briefly as you can.
Mr. Henderson. I do not know exactly what you mean by definite
information, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know the condition of affairs in the school ?
Mr. Henderson. I would be glad to state my knowledge of the
school as a neighbor. I resided just west of the school, my property
abutting on the school property. I am also, I might say here, one
of the owners of the real estate known as the "Meadows," which I
lease to the Government and upon which the entrance faces just
below here.
As a neighbor of the school, I am very glad of the op])ortunity
afforded by this commission to state that in my opinion, having a
knowledge of the school from the days it was first established by
Gen. Pratt, then Capt. Pratt, I have never seen it in a better condition
than it is at the present time under Supt. Friedman.
The Chairman. Wliat is the state of feehng existing between the
superintendent and the pu])ils generally, if you know it ?
Mr. Henderson. I am not in a position, sir, to answer that question.
The Chairman. Do you know the state of feeling between the
superintendent and the cmj)loyees ?
Mr. Henderson. I do not know anything definitely upon that
subject. So far as I know, their relations are harmonious, with the
exception that, as a matter of hearsay, I have understood that there
has been some friction existing between the present su])erintendent
and one of the employees of the school.
CAT^LISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1179
The Chairman. Do you know whetlier there is much (hunkeiiness
among the boys 'i
Mr. Henderson. On that point I wish to say that I have never
seen a drunken Indian in Carlisle, with but two exceptions. On one
occasion about dusk, between 7 and 8 o'clock in the evening, during
the past year. I met an Indian who was intoxicated, accompanied by
two of his fellow Indian friends, apparently being escorted home to
the school by the front entrance. 1 say tlie front entrance, because
I was struck by this fact, that those Indian boys w^ould have the
manliness to conduct the boy in that condition back to the school,
where he could not fail to be observed.
On another occasion I remember seeing, at some little distance on
the road to the school, after leaving the town Imiits on North Han-
over Street, about o o'clock in the evening, a crowd, or rather a
gathering of 7 or 8 people, and I inquired wdiat it w^as, and they said
tliat it was an Indian who had been arrested for drunkenness by a
policeman.
The Chairman. Do you know whether he was a student here
or not?
Mr. Henderson. I understood that the Indian was a student.
The Chairman. What is the general conduct and demeanor of the
pupils ? Is it good ?
tlr. Henderson. Excellent. When I say excellent I speak from
the standpomt of one wdio observes from the outside, and as a neigh-
bor. I overlook the school. As living near the school, I come daily
in contact with the pupils who travel to and from the school. I
have never had a complaint to make or to suggest, in my knowledge of
the school, of any act of rudeness, any boisterousness, or any rough
play or unbecoming conduct on the part of a single Indian student
m the streets of Carlisle.
The Chairman. Do they pass your house on the way to town and
return ?
Mr. Henderson. They^ do, sir.
The Chairman. That is a ver^' remarkable statement to make of
a school of this character.
Mr. Henderson. I live right opposite here
The Chairman. How long have you lived there?
Mr. Henderson. I have lived there since an infant, and since the
foundation of the school. That is nearly 13 years.
The Chairman. Other than the two occasions you have referred
to, you have seen no signs of drunkenness, and have never been dis-
turbed by any signs of misconduct ?
Mr. Henderson. Never. On the other hand, I have been an-
noyed by our native white boys frequently. That is because of the
fact that they do pass up and down the run that passes between our
property and the Indian school, and if there w'as any little thieving
in the w^ay of fruit, the temptation w^as there. But in that whole
period of yeais, at no time have I had occasion, or my family had
occasion, to register a complaint against an Indian boy, wdth but one
exception, and that was under these cu'cumstances:
I noticed that there was an obstruction in the flow of the stream.
An examination disclosed that some obstruction had been placed in
the stream down by the woods, which is property belonging to the
Indian school under the lease, and I complained to Mr. Friedman,
1180 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
although I stated to him at the time that I had no knowledge of
whether the obstruction was placed there by tow^^ boys or by his
pupils. Mr. Friedman at once gave the matter his attention, and
instructed that the obstruction be removed, and took every step
that would prevent its repetition in the future.
Tlie CIL4.IRMAX. We are very mucJi obliged to you, Mr. Henderson.
TESTIMONY OF REV. ALEXANDER McMIILAN.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. ^McMillan, the joint commission of Congress
charged uith the duty of investigating Indian affairs generally, are
looking into conditions at Carlisle, and we have been informed that
you are somewhat familiar with conditions here. We would be very
glad to have any information that you may be able to communicate.
You are a minister, are you ?
Mr. Mc]\liLLAN. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Of what church?
Mr. McMillan. I am rector of the Episcopal Church. I suppose
I have been tlie longest here of any minister. I have been 22 years
coming to the school to administer, especially to children of the Epis-
copal Church, having an appointment here at least once a week for the
midweek meeting and at other times.
The Chairman. Have they a church here, or assembly hall for
religious services ? "Where do they hold religious services ?
Mr. McMillan. On Monday evening the Methodists meet in one
room and we meet in another one. Their pastors come out to meet
them especially for a short service.
The Chairman. Your observation of conditions here arises from
your ministrations to the children as a minister principally?
Mr. McMillan. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What have you to say about the moral and disci-
plinary conditions prevailing in the school? I suppose they would
attract your attention ?
^Ir. McMillan. They do, sir. My impression has been for some
time past, comparing them with the other administrations, that I
think the moral condition and discipline has been better. But some
things have occurred to disturb the moral condition of the school
from time to time, under Capt. Clapp and under Maj. Mercer, too.
The Charman. You do not think the conditions are growing worse
with reference to conduct among the pupils, do you?
Mr. McMillan. No, sir; not from what I can see.
The Chairman. You see them, however, I suppose, on their best
behavior, when they are at church ?
Mr. McMillan. Xo; 1 do not see them often at church.
The Chairman. Where do you see them ?
Mr. McMillan. I see them on the grounds. I have taken some
liberty as a friend to visit them in dormitories.
The ('iiAiKMAN. Did you do that?
Mr. McMillan. Yes, sir.
The (^iiairman. Hoav often?
Mr. McMillan. That is only occasionally, when 1 go to see anyone.
The Chairman. What have you to say about the way their
quarters are f lu-nished and kept ?
i
CARLISLE INDU.N SCHOOL. 1181
Mr. McjSIillan. About the same as tliey have been.
The Chairman. Ai'e they satisfactory and comfortable?
^Ir. McMillan. I never Jiave heard any comphiint.
The Chairman. Do you visit the mess halls during meals?
Mr. McMillan. The general dining room ( I do at times.
The Chairman. Have you been there ^vhen complaints were
general about the lack of a sufficient quantity of food, and especially
the lack of a sufficient quantity of bread?
Ml'. McMillan. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you know that compalints were general on
that score ?
'Mr. McMillan. Just a little.
The Chairman. Do you know whether there is much drunkenness
among the pupils ?
Ml*. McMillan. That I hear reported occasionally; yes. I have
been in court on jury duty where there was a case tried about two or
three months ago.
The Chairman. I do not refer to exceptional cases, but only to
conditions.
;Mr. McMillan. I know only by report.
The Chairman. Do you know what efforts are made tu suppress
the sale of liquor to these Indian pupils, of your own knowledge ?
Mr. McMillan. I am not so closely in touch with that.
The Chairman. You would think that if drunkenness or excessive
drinking was common among the pupils, it would be a very bad
condition, woidd you not ?
]Mr. McMiLLAN."^ Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Going to the very integrity of the institution and
its promises of success. Are you informed as to the moral conditions
prevailing in tlie school ?
Mr. McMillan. Only by report.
The Chairman. You have heard reports of many cases of im-
morality ?
Mr. McMillan. Not many.
The Chairman. Do you know the feeling of the pupils toward
Mr. Friedman and the feeling of Mi-. Friedman tov.'ard the pupils ?
Do you know the relationship that exists between them?
Ml*. McMillan. Until very recently, within the last few days, my
impression has been all favorable.
The Chairman. You mean your impression has been that the
feeling is cordial ?
Mr. Mc^IiLLAN. Cordial; yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know, as a matter of fact, that it is quite
otherwise, and that there is quite a general feeling of hostility?
Mr. McMillan. No.
The Chairman. You had not been informed of that ?
Mr. McMillan. Not of any standing, I would imagine.
The Chairman. How did you learn of it ?
Mr. McMillan. By rumor — not from the children, of course; and
they would be free to speak to me.
The Chairman. Do you know the state of feeling between the
superintendent and the employees generally ?
Mr. McMillan. I know of cases of conflict between them.
1182 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. Of course, you do not know anything about who
is to blame, and woukl not undertake to pass upoii that?
Mr. McMillan. No, sir.
The Chairman. Have you examined into the academic work that
is being done ?
Mr. McMillan. No, sir.
The Chairman. Are you famihar with the work that is being done
in vocational training ?
Mr. McJMillan. I could not speak of that. An occasional visit to
the shops would not teach me enough to enable me to pass on it.
The Chairman. We thank you very much.
TESTIMONY OF MISS EMMA C. LOVEWELL.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. Are you connected with Carlisle School?
Miss LovEWELL. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. In w^hat capacity?
Miss LovEWELL. As a teacher.
The Chairman. How long have you been employed here?
Miss Love WELL. Four and a haliF years.
The Chairman. Are you familiar with the conditions in the school
with reference to discipline ?
Miss LovEW^ELL. I think so.
The Chairman. Are those conditions good or bad?
Miss LovEWELL. I call them very bad.
The Chairman. Will you describe them briefly?
Miss LovEWELL. Now", at the school building I should say they
were better than last year, but take them in a general way — you
mean in a general way ?
The Chairman. Yes. What is the feeling of the pupils toward
the superintendent ? Do you know ?
Miss Love WELL. Oh, yes; they are very bitter toward him.
The Chairman. Is that general?
Miss LovEWELL. I think it is.
The Chairman. Do you know" wdiat it is due to ?
Miss Love WELL. It is ever3^thing together. There have been so
many things. One thing in particular, I think^ they have taken a
great dislike to is when he has stood up in the auditorium before
them as a body and tried to put down Mr. Whitwell.
The Chairman. Mr. Whitwell is popular ^nth them, is he?
Miss LovEWELL. He is, very.
The Chairman. That has aroused their resentment?
Miss LovEWELL. That is one thing I have seen very strongly. Of
course, he has upheld the matron in very severe measures that she
has taken, and I think that is one reason.
The Chairman. What is the feeling generally between him and
the em]>loyees in the school ? Is it cordial or otherwise ?
Miss LovEWELL. I think not, with only a few exceptions. He has
a few favorites.
The Chairman. Could you name them?
Miss LovEWELL. Well, I think his most particular one in the
school is Mrs. Foster. Another one is ^liss Reicliel.
CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1183
The Chairman . Do you know of employees having been reproved
for entertaining pupils ?
Miss LovEWELL. Yes; it was made publicly. He reproved them
at a faculty meeting. Other employees were present.
The Chairman. Why?
Miss LovEWELL. The faculty meeting was held down in the old
music room and he said that — there was cpiite a little discussion— he
said he objected to the employees entertaining the boys. It went on
just the same: it did not stop.
The Chairman. Do you know^ Mr. Stauffer ?
Miss LoVEWELL. I do.
The Chairman. What is his position?
Miss LovEW^ELL. Music teacher.
The Chairman. Was he formerly connected with the Agriculture
Department ?
Miss LovEWELL. He w^as not connected with it. He tried to get in
as agriculture teacher, and they tried to get him in.
The Chairman. What are the moral conditions prevailing in the
school generally ?
Miss Love WELL. I think they are at very low ebb.
The Chairman. Will 3 ou tell us why you think so ?
Miss LovEWELL. Well, boys and girls are meeting constantly.
The Chairman. Clandestinely and improperly?
Miss LovEWELL. Yes. indeed.
The Chairman. What effort is made to prevent that ?
Miss IjOVEWell. Well, of c(>urse, I am not in a position to know.
I know after they are found out they are locked up for a little w^hile.
The last meeting the}"^ had they were not locked up as long as usual.
They were locked up a few days and then released. Usually it has
been several days.
The Chairman. Are there many instances of innnorality in the
conduct of the pupils of the school ?
Miss Love WELL. Yes.
The Chairman. Is that known and understood among the employ-
ees of the school generally ?
Miss LovEWELL. Oh, yes, indeed.
The Chairman. What do you think is the remedy for these condi-
tions ? What do you think ought to be done ?
Miss LovEWELL. Well, I have said wdien I have been so excited
over it that I thought there should be something done, and if I could
not do something else, if I w\as superintendent, instead of raising
inefficient em})loyees, I w^ould take that money and hire a guard and
put it around the girls' school building. If there w^ere any other way
to protect them I would do that. Of course, these boys, as night
v\-atchmen, are not of any account, for that matter.
The Chairman. Do you know ?
]\Iiss LovEW'ELL. Yes.
The Chairman. Where was she from ?
Miss LovEWELL. From Montana.
The Chairman. Did she have trouble here?
Miss LovEWELL. It was re]>ort(Hl that she met a boy at the hospital.
The nurse who was there told me the whole particulars. She said
they could not get quite proof enough; there was not any doubt of it,
but still they did not have positive proof.
1184 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. Do you know other cases of alleged immorality?
Miss LoyEWELL. You mean
The Chairman. Among other pupils ?
Miss LoyEWELL. Oh, yes; I could mention a great many.
The Chairman. You state that there are a great many cases of
immorality?
Miss LoyEWELL, Yes.
The Chairman. Are there many girls sent home on account of it ?
Miss LoyEWELL. Yes; and some of them become mothers. How
far I can testify to that I do not know. It was generally understood
that they became mothers.
The Chairman. Do you know how many are reported to haye had
that misfortune ?
Miss LoyEWELL. Well, I could not tell now,
(The list of names submitted by Mrs. Dietz was handed to the
witness.)
Miss LoyEWELL. I do not remember the names of those who be-
came mothers. There was immorality, but I could not say posi-
tiyely — -they were immoral, there is no doubt about that. And it
was known, or at least generally understood, that • • • had
a disease that, perhaps, is worse than to become a mother. At
least, it was understood so. Benedict Cloud reported the story.
Shall I tell the conditions connected with it ?
The Chairman. No; I do not care to have them go into the record.
Miss LoyEWELL. That was in regard to writing a note to Mr.
Friedman.
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Miss LoyEWELL. — > — — — • — • — • was in my schoolroom, and I had
this talk with the nurse over there. She told me the conditions, and
that Benedict Cloud had reported this story to her. She was there
some little time, and then she came to school. I went to Mr, Whit-
well, and I said, "If the conditions are what they say they are it
does not seem to me that — • — ■ — • — ~— should be in school," He
said, ''If you wish to WTite you may send it through me," So I
wrote to Mr. Friedman, sajdng that if the stories were true she should
not be in the schoolroom, that her presence was contaminating. He
wrote back that he had made an investigation, and that such libellous
stories should cease. I wrote back that I had talked to the doctor
about it, and that Benedict Cloud repeated the story. The doctor
told me there was some trouble with Benedict Cloud, but he was not
quite cfn-tain what it was.
Representative Carter. Have you and the superintendent ever
had any trouble?
Miss LovEWELL. No — well, there was trouble, if you call it so — •
about ni}" being sick at one time. Shall I tell that?
Representative Carter. Just briefly.
Miss LovEWELL. I was detailed to the dining room and worked
very hard. It was too hard. I had my meals irregularly, and I was
taken ill and ha<l tlie doctor. But I heard there were so many stories
about it, and the one ^ho was taking my place was very much opposed
to being then'^, so I said, ''I am going to get up and report for duty."
I wont to Mr. Friedman and said, "I am going to report for duty,"'
and he said, '"No; 1 do not want any such thing. You take your
vacation now. We can not give you any sick leave." I said, ''Well,
CARLISLE IXDLiN SCHOOL. 1185
I was going to report for duty." He said, "No; anyone who will
give up their work and b'^ traveling all over the campus can not be
very sick." I said, "I beg your pardon, Mr. Friedman, I liave not
been able to walk over the campus. I have been sick in bod, tind the
doctor has been attending ni"." He said, ''Well, I must take ray
leave." At that very time he said Mrs. Foster was on a month's sick
leave. Miss Reichel was home and was taken sick after she went
home, and had two week's sick leave.
TESTIMONY OF MISS HATTIE M. McDOWELL.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
Representative Carter. Miss McDowell, what is your position in
the school ?
Miss McDowell. Teacher.
Representative Carter. Will you please tell us what you know
what is wi'ong with this school, if you have any information to give us ?
Miss McDowell. It seems to me we need a strong, upright, honest
man for superintendent. That is the only thmg I know of — -the
greatest need I know of.
Representative Carter. Does Mr. Friedman seem to take any
interest m this school ?
Miss McDowell, His greatest is in himself. At least it seems so
to me; that every motive seems to be, "How will it affect the super-
intendent?" and thus benefit the superintendent rather than the
general welfare of the school.
Representative Carter. He is a good advertiser, is he ?
Miss McDowell. He certainly is.
Representative Carter. He takes quite a lot of interest in the
band ?
Miss McDowell. Certainly; they advertise the school.
Representative Carter. What do you think about the essentials?
Does he pay any attention to the essential things ?
Miss McDowell. It seems to me the most necessary things — -the
upbuilding of character and things that are for the benefit of the
school and are most essential — are neglected.
Representative Carter. Do he and Mr. Whitwell get along well?
Miss McDowell. Very poorly.
Representative Carter. Who do you think is to blame for it?
Miss McDowell. Of course I think Air. Whitwell is an upright
honorable man. I have taught school, 14 years in the public schools
and 19 in the Indian schools, and I never taught under a principal
that I thought more interested, more helpful, who listened more
patiently to what I have had to say. And I think that when he does
not have the help and support of the superintendent it shows its
effect throughout the school.
Representative Carter. AVhat do you know about the complaints
of the children concerning their food ?
Miss McDowell. I know they have complained to me. Just two
weeks ago— now, the boys come in before the girls. They lined up
along the wall and said they were so hungry. It was just afternoon.
I said, ' ' Do you have good food, good bread ? " And they said, ' ' Yes ;
but the meat was spoiled to-day, and we don't have bread enough."
35601— PT 11—14 15
1186 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Representative Carter. Is the complaint general about the food ?
Do all the children indulge in that comjilaint ?
Miss McDowell. Well, of course, sometimes we all grumble about
the food. I do not know that it is general. Every time I have been
to inspect the food it has been good. I think generally the food has
been good; the bread has been good. They claim they do not get
enough of it, and hard-working girls and boys do need more.
Representative Carter. What do you know about the feeling
between the superintendent and the boys ? Is it good or bad 'i
Miss McDowell. As I say, it seems as if the superintendent lacks
sympathy with both the employees and the children.
Representative Carter. Now, the thing I wanted to know was, Is
the feeling good or bad between them ?
Miss McDowell. I think they quite clearly know him, and do not
distrust him.
Representative Carter. They do not respect him ?
Miss McDowell. I do not think they do respect and trust him.
Representative Carter. Have you known oi any evidence of this
disrespect being shown in a general way?
Miss McDowell. I liave heard of that, but as to seeing it — they
do not applaud him when he gets up to make a remark in chapel,
like he would expect them to if they thought what he said was sincere
and honest.
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE ABRAMS.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. How long have you been here?
Mr. Abrams. Fifteen months.
The Chairman. You are the gardener, are you?
Mr. Abrams. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What salary do you get ?
Mr. Abrams. $720.
The Chairman. How many acres of land do you cultivate?
Mr. Abrams. Six.
The Chairman. Six acres ?
Mr. Abrams. For garden; yes.
The Chairman. What crops did you produce this year ?
Mr. Abrams. Cabbage, peas, beans, cauliflower
The Chairman. Are students detailed to do the work ?
Mr. Abrams. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How many students do they detail to you?
Mr. Abrams. From 10 to 12.
The Chairman. Couldn't you work a much larger area than that
with that number ?
Mr. Abrams. Certainly.
The Chairman. Wliy don't you cultivate a sufficient garden to
supply all the needs of the school ?
Mr. Abrams. I do not have enough ground for it and not enough
help.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, if sufficient ground were fur-
nishetl you, you could take the student labor and make and gather
enough vegetables and other garden truck to run the school all the
year round ?
CABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1187
Mr. Abrams. Yes.
The Chairman. What did you produce last year?
Senator Lane. How many cabbages ?
Mr. Abrams. About 5,000 head.
The Chairman. Potatoes and onions ? How much onions did you
grow ?
Mr. Abrams. Over 1,000 bunches.
The Chairman. Is there any orchard on this school ground ?
Mr. Abrams. No orchard; no.
Senator Lane. How many dried onions?
Mr. Abrams. I had 10 or 12 bushels.
Senator Lane. How many carrots?
Mr. Abrams. I had about 10 bushels. I had tomatoes — about 400
bushels. I had about 150 bushels of beets.
Senator Lane. Did they can any of the tomatoes ?
Mr. Abrams. They canned 800 gallons and could have canned 800
more. We gave them lots of radishes.
Representative Stephens. Are the boys that are sent you sent
there as a punisliment?
Mr. Abrams. No, sir.
Representative Stephens. How do you get them ?
Mr. Abrams. By detail every montli.
Representative Stephens. Do you select them ?
Mr. Abrams. Mr. McKean, the disci phnarian. Tliey report to me
every first of the month.
Representative Stephens. They are under his charge for some-
thing they have done wrong ?
Mr. Abrams. They are under his charge all the time. When they
come to me they are under my charge.
Representative Stephens. Are they sent to you to teach them to
farm ?
Mr. Abrams. To teach them to work, and we do teach them in
time.
Senator Lane. Are they ever sent to you to punish them?
Mr. Abrams. No, sir. They only sent me a couple of boys about
a month ago. I asked for a couple of boys. I am digging about 160
feet of bed, and I asked for a few good boys to help, and they sent a
couple of boys, to punish them, for that purpose.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM NONAST.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. You are the tailor for the CarHsle School?
Mr. Nonast. I am.
The Chairman. Where is your shop ?
Mr. Nonast. Over this way, past this building.
The Chairman. What work do you do in the tailor shop for the
school ?
Mr. Nonast. Mostly uniforms and repairing.
The Chairman. You make the uniforms and do the repair work
for tlie older pupils ?
Mr. Nonast. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Do you make all the uniforms?
Mr. Nonast. Practically aU; yes.
1188 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. You do no repair work for the younger ones ?
JMr. NoNAST. The repair work for the small boys is supposed to be
done by the girls.
The Chairman. Do you know whether or not it is done by them
or whether or not the clothing is destroyed ?
Ml'. NoNAST, I know hardly any repairing is done over there, and
I know as much from one of the sewing ladies over there. She told
me about eight months or so ago they never came over there at all.
All of a sudden about 2,000 pieces came over there at once. The
disciplinarian over there was on a vacation, and she was surprised
wh«n they came over. She said there never was a piece since she
was here, and she said she was here a year and a half.
The Chairman. Do they detail boys from the school to assist you ?
Mr. NoNAST. Oh, yes.
The Chairman. Do the}' learn the work pretty rapldh?
Mr. Nonast. Some do, and others do not.
The Chairman. How^ man>' are detailed for }our assistants ?
Mr. Nonast. It is never the same. Sometimes we only have half
tJie boys and a week afterwards we may have twice as many.
The Chairman. Do they learn the trade? Do they stay long
enough to learn it ?
Mr. NoNxiST. Some do, and others don't.
Senator Lane. How many learn it in a year?
Mr. Nonast. It is hard to say. Some stay three years, othei-s five
^"ears. Some do not stav six n.ionths. On an average J have about
15 or 16.
The Chairman. How many Indian boys in the school since you
came here, do you su])pose, have learned the trade ?
Mr. Nonast. I could not say that outright. I could look it up in
the boote, but I could not tell the number now.
The Chairman. About how many ?
Senator Lane. Twenty?
Mr. Nonast. Oh, no; more than that. I have been here 12 yeare,
and then I Jiave got an average of about 15 boys a year, so that
would be 150.
The Chairman. How many of that number have learned the trade
and would be able to pureue it ?
Mr. Nonast. I know about a dozen that are working at it. Most
of them have then own shops.
The Chairman. Why is it these boys that are detailed to you do
not go on there and learn the trade ?
Mr. Nonast. Because the most of them do not stay long enougji,
and I get them too late.
The Chairman. Why Is it they do not stay? Are they detailed
somewhere else ?
Mr. Nonast. They are; and they are in the hospital, and in the
guard house.
The Chairman. Are they sent on outing parties ?
Mr. Nonast. Yes; and they are gone five or six months.
Senator Lane. Why do you get them too late?
Mr. Nonast. I often get a bo\- tJiat lias only six months to stay.
It is underetood that tjiey will su]^ply me witji young boys wlien they
fii-st como liore, but it is not so.
The Chairman. Wlw details tjiese bovs ?
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1189
Mr. NoxAST. I believe it is the disciplinarian.
The Chairman. How it any bo}'s could you take there and teach
this work if the}' were allowed to you i
Mr. NoNAST. Oh, I could have about 25 or 30 if I liad them.
Tlie Chairman. Could you teach them ? Can the Indian boys
learn the tailor work?
Mr. NoNAST. Some of them are very good at it. Others, some
wa}' or other they do not like the tailor shop as well as other shops,
because it is kind of sedentary aiul confining.
TESTIMONY OF MR. EDWARD McKEAN.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. You are the disciidinarian at Carlisle now?
Mr. McKean. Yes.
The Chairman. How long have you worked in that capacity?
Mr. McKean. Just about 10 months.
The Chairman. Were you here before that ?
Mr. McKean. No, sir.
The Chairman. You have been connected with the school just
about 10 months?
Mr. McKean. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What are the conditions in the school with refer-
ence to order or disorder and discipline generally ?
Mr. McKean. Well, I have charge of the large boys, and one of
the great troubles I have encountered here is the habit of boys going
to town and getting liquor.
The Chairman. Is there much of that ?
Mr. McKean. Why, they tell me, that the last year and the last
two years — especially the last year — there has not been as much as
formerly, due to the fact that, especially among the athletes, there is
a better class of boys.
The Chairman. What efforts do you make to suppress that ?
Mr. McKean. At times when the boys go to town, on town days, I
am down there, and I give the officers instructions about watching
out for these loopholes that these boys are liable to drop into. Be-
sides that, at our assemblies, I give the boys general talks about
that matter. Then those that do get drunk and come back in that
condition I put them in the guardhouse.
The Chairman. How long do you usually keep them there for
getting drunk ?
Mr. McKean. Well, from a week to 10 or 12 days.
The Chairman. What is the feeling of the pupils generally toward
the superintendent ?
Mr. McKean. Well, the boys in my quarters have not a very cor-
dial feeling toward the superintendent.
The Chairman. How does it manifest itself ?
Mr. McKean. By referring to him as a ''Jew" and "sheeney."
Recently I have gone through the quarters and taken down cartoons
of a slurring nature about him. Well, the general feeling among
my boys is one of disrespect.
The Chairman. Do you know what it is due to ?
Mr. McKean. I do not.
1190 CARLISLE INDLA.N SCHOOL.
The Chairman. Have you attempted to restrain it and sup-
press it?
Mr. McKean. I have. I iiave tried to impress upon the boys that
it was respect due to the position, and the individual should not be
considered always in this matter; that he was the superintendent of
the school, and as superintendent they were to respect him and I was
to obey him.
The Chairman. Our attention has been called to the cases of some
pupils who have been placed in jail, among them the case of
• and — ■ , I think it was. You preferred a charge
against them for fornication under the laws of Pennsylvania ?
Mr. McKean. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How did you come to do that ? Was that under
the superintendent's instructions ?
Mr. McKean. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Or on your own motion?
Mr. McKean. No, sir.
The Chairman. Was it in conformity with your best judgment
that these parties should be confined in the county jail?
Ml-. McKean. My personal judgment in the matter was that they
should be punished in a different way, but my instructions were to
take them there.
The Chairman. Ag a matter of fact, the laws of the State of Penn-
sylvania do not punish offenses of that sort by imprisonment. They
are only punishable by fine. Was your attention called to that ?
Mr. McKean. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know how it happened that Judge Sadler
sentenced to them to jail for 60 days for that offense?
Mr. McKean. Those two were confined in the jail, and I beheve
the judge told me to go down and see and see if he
would plead guilty, and he did, and I can not say now whether I
informed him or the district attorney. They were both there
together, anyway. He sent the attorney down there, and he pleaded
guilty, and that was the sentence.
The Chairman. Did you hear the sentence imposed ?
Mr. McKean. I did not.
The Chairman. Did you know at that time that under the laws
of Pennsylvania they could not be sent to prison for that offense?
Mr. McKean. No, sir.
Senator Lane. Did they plead guilty to that after they were in
jail?
Mr. McKean. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane Not in the court room ?
Mr. McKean. I am pretty sure. Now, I have had several cases
down there, similar ones; quite a few; three or four, I should say,
and I am quite positive that it was in jail that pleaded
guilty.
Senator Lane. Not in the court room?
Mr. McKean. No; I do not thmk so.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, he served there about 70 days,
I believe. Do you know whether Jie was ])rovided with a change of
clothing during that time ?
Mr. McKean. I telephoned down to the jail, and I believe it wag
the warden's wife, or some woman tjicre, answered the phone, and
CARLISLE INDLA.N SCHOOL. 1191
I told lier that whatever clothing wanted at any tmie to let
me know and I would send it.
The Chairman. Did you send him any clothing at any time that
you remember?
Mr. McKean. No, sir; I do not think that I did.
The Chairman. Who has the power to administer corporal pun-
ishment under your rules and regulations here ?
Mr. McKean. Well, the superintendent is generally opposed to
corporal punishment. He has never personally delegated any
powers that I know of to any employees to administer that.
The Chairman. Have you any authority to whip ?
Mr. McKean. Well, I don't know. I tell you, it is like this: I do
not make a practice of whipping any boys. I taught school before I
came into the Indian Service, and occasionally a little whipping does
a boy good; but, as a general proposition, it is a bad thing, and I
avoid it.
The Chairman. Do you know of being whipped by
Mr. Stauffer?
Mr. McKean. I heard that she was.
The Chairman. Do you know whether he had any authority to
administer punishment to her?
Mr. McKean. As I say, I do not think that in liis capacity of
musician here — it would be a different thing than if he were disci-
plinarian or matron. I do not think that he would have any authority
to administer any corporal punishment.
The Chairman. You were not present at any time while that
occurred ?
Mr. McKean. No, sir.
The Chairman. Were you present while some boys were whipped
in the jail?
Mr. McKean. No, sir; that was before I came here.
The Chairman. Do you know a former student by the name of
Montreville Yuda ?
Mr. McKean. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you look into his case ?
Mr. McKean. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Under wiiose instructions ?
Mr. McKean. Mr. Friedman's.
The Chairman. What were your instructions ?
Mr. McKean. The first I had to do with Montreville, I was in-
structed to take him off the school grounds; that* he was expelled or
sent away from here. I did so; and it seems that ho struck a job in
Carlisle with some ice-cream firm there, and the superintendent told
me he was an undesirable character to have in the Carlisle School or
its vicinity, and he was convinced that he had practices and was doing
things that were detrimental to the boys.
The Chairman. Did he tell you what they were?
Mr. McKean. Wliy, he thought, for one thing — the only thing that
was definite that I could say was that he had been getting them
whisky, but that was a surmise. The instructions I got were to find
out something tangible upon that boy by which the court could get
hold of him and order him out of town.
The Chairman. You were instructed to get evidence against him ?
1192 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL
Mr. McKean. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you do it?
Mr. McKean. I tried it.
The Chairman. Did you succeed ?
Mr. McKean. I interviewed the policeman down town about this
boy, and he told me that he thought — that he was quite positive that
Montreville Yuda had been getting whisky himself, and that he could
find out all about it. That was before I went on my vacation. After
I came back I learned that during this time this big, tall, red-headed
detective — Bentley is his name, I think — had ordered him out of
town; by whose instructions I could not sa}^, whether it was the
court's or not. He went to a town up the railroad here a short
distance.
The Chairman. Chambersburg ?
Mr. McKean. I think so; yes, sir; and found employment up there.
The next time I saw Montreville Yuda on the street here he was limp-
ing along; and I spoke and shook hands with him, and asked him what
the trouble was; and he told me he had dropped a cake of ice on his
foot; and he wanted to know if I was going to try to drive him out of
Carlisle. I told him I had nothing against him, and as long as he
behaved himself I did not think he would have any trouble, but what-
ever instructions I got I would have to carry them out. But so far as
my personal relations with him were concerned, they were all right.
The Chairman. Did you find any e\ddence that the young man had
been getting whisky for the Indian pupils ?
Mr. McKean. I found that he had, while he was a student here,
before this time, brought some of the boys down into a disorderly
house down in Carlisle, had brought several of them there, but they
were boys that were then away from the school and have gone back
hom^. That was the only evidence.
The Chairman. You did not find anything with reference to stu-
dents ?
Mr. McKean, No, sir; not of recent date.
The Chairman. You have not put in the record the trouble you
had with that boy who hit you.
Mr. McKean. That is an individual case. I think ho did that him-
self, and I am convinced that does not represent the school.
Representative Stephens. Do you know of any case where Mr.
Friedman has ordered Yuda or any other boy, after leaving the school,
to leave the town or leave the county when they had emplojinent ?
Mr. McKean. Tliis is the stand Mr. Friedman told me the school
took: Students, after they left this school — he did not want them
around this vicinity. He wanted them away from here, and took
means to send them away. I do not think he ever gave me any in-
structions to drive them away or disturb them in their occupations,
but he told me that when students qiiit the school he wanted them
away from here and not around Carlisle or its vicinity.
Representative Stephens. Did he give any reason for that ?
Mr. McKean. The only reason that he gave was that on account
of the girls going down town and that young man there, there might
be serious trouble in that respect.
CARLISLE INDLA.N SCHOOL. 1193
TESTIMONY OF MISS MARGAEET M. SWEENEY.
Tho witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
Representative CHARTER. What is your official position?
Miss Sweeney. Teacher.
Representative Carter. Miss Sweeney, could j^ou tell us anything
that you think would be for the good of this institution?
. Miss Sweeney. I presume I can not add very much more to wliat
you have akeady heard.
Representative Carter. We would like to have any suggestions
you might make.
Miss Sweeney. I think if there were tact used in discipline we
would have a nmch better school. That is what is lacking.
Representative Carter. That you are short on discipline ?
Miss Sweeney. The superintendent — in my opinion — -he has no
discipline. He evidently has not had very much experience in that
line, because he does such funny things, you know^, that are detri-
mental to the discipline of the school.
Representative Carter. Do you know anything of his attitude
toward the students and their feeling toward him ?
Miss Sweeney. Now^, I have been here four years. I came here
four years ago in November, and there were students here at the
time I came that I had known before, and I was shocked at the feel-
ing of those students toward Mr. Friedman at that time. It seems
they had an investigation the May before I came. I could not tell
you the nature of the trouble then, but I was told by the pupils at
that time that they very much — that the feeling of the pupils was
that they were going to have an uprising among themselves and drive
him off and any employee that was in sympathy with him.
Representative Carter. Do you know anything of their expressing
then- dislike in the wa}' of hissing, etc. ?
Miss Sweeney. You could ask that better from somebody who
was here at the time; but I understood that the band refused to
Elay for him. I could not give you an}' definite idea about what
appened, because I only heard it second handed.
Rei)resentative Carter. Have }ou an\ du-ect information about
the morals of the school and tlie pupils ?
Miss Sweeney. You see, it requu'es a very strong man in the
school, and i presume we get the worst class of pupils; a class of
pupils that can not be controlled in other schools. Now, during the
time Miss Gaither was here Miss Gaither had what we considered
very good tact ui controlling those girls, and she gained the love and
esteem of the girls; but she had no sup])ort from the sui)erintendent.
Representative Carter. Why did she leave?
Miss Sweeney. He was instrumental in getting her to leave.
Re])resentative Carter. He had her transferred ?
Mlss Sweeney. So far as i can see, if he takes a ])ei"sonal dislike
to you it makes no difference how good an employee vou are or how
well you are doing \our duty toward the Government.
Re])resentative Carter. What do you know about Mr. Stauffer?
What is his influence ?
Miss Sweeney. I do not consider Mr. Stauffer a ver\' great addi-
tion to our facultw
1194 CARLISLE IJSIDIA^^ SCHOOL.
Representative Carter. Do you know of any specific things he
has done ?
Mlss Sweeney. There was a lady, Mrs. James Thorpe, told me a
story; she was not going into details, more because she knew I had
already heard it; but she went into details with the sisters, and the
sisters told me; and she spoke of it again to me, and I did not ask
her to go into details because I had already heard the story. It was a
very immoral story, and it was in connection with the — he said, •
what I understand, that the sisters and priests were living an im-
moral life.
Representative Carter. Who said that ?
Miss Sweeney. Mr. Stauffer. I understand she went to his room
to take .her lesson, and he talked in such a way to her that she got
frightened; and she said that she sat there and took this language
from the man smiply because he was an employee and she was a
pupil.
Representative Carter. Indecent language ?
Miss Sweeney. Indecent language; and she said, "I felt like
clawing his face."
Representative Carter. And he said that the priests and the
sisters were living unmorally ?
Miss Sweeney. Yes; and he talked in such a broad way to her
that she was horrified. She, of course, was brought up by the sisters,
and she knew he was telKng what was false. I think he has been in-
strumental in making considerable trouble here between Mr. Whitwell
and Mr. Friedman.
Re]iresentative Carter. Have you eA^er had any trouble with
Mr. Friedman yourself ?
Miss Sweeney. I Jiave never had any words with him, but he has
treated me very badly since the first of September.
Representative Carter. In what way, Miss Sweeney ?
Miss Sweeney. Now, to go back, I think that wlien I got my pro-
motion this automatic promotion you know, and the fact I was a
Catholic- he did not speak to me after I got it for some five or six
weeks. Then when he got into trouble with Mr. Whitwell he was very
anxious to get my friendship.
Representative Carter. When did he and Mr. Whitwell get into
trouble ?
Miss Sweeney. Sometime in October. Of course, he had been so
disagreeable over the school work. It was an old grudge, it seems.
And then, of course, Mr. Whitwell lost his temper, and he made a
charge against him
Representative Carter. What charge ?
Miss Sweeney. Mr. Whitwell called him a "dirty skunk."
Representative Carter. Does Mr. Friedman attempt to discriminate
against people on account of their religion?
Miss Sweeney. He did; I think he is very anxious — you see,
Father Stock and Mr. Friedman had some trouble in regard to
religious matters in regard to pupils going to cojifession. Father
Stock took it to Washington. The commissioner had ordered Mr.
Friodmaji to send the children to church with their officers, and I
think that made him very angry.
Representative Carter. Does that extend to the students too ?
Does he discriminate against the children too ?
CARLISLE INDU.N SCHOOL. 1195
Miss Sweeney. Since the time of Col. Pratt, when the children
went to confession and commiuiion every second Sunday, they went
down in charge of their officers, but Mr. Friedman said that the girls
could not go down unless they had a chaperone, and he detailed me
to chaperone the children at half-past 9 to the regular mass, where the
boys went too. Of course, Father Stock could not get any lady to
come up for them from the town and make it a regular work. So
I think that was really his motive, for it was taking revenge in a
way upon Father Stock.
TESTIMONY OF MISS HANNAH H. RIDENOUR.
The mtness was duly sworn b}' the chairman.
The Chairman. You are the matron at Carlisle School?
Miss RiDENOUR. I am the matron.
The Chairman. How long have you been here ?
Miss RiDENOUR. One year and a few days.
The Chairman. How long have you been in the Indian Service,
Miss Ridenour ?
Miss RiDENOLTR. About 16 years.
The Chairman. Where did you serve before coming here ?
Miss RiDENOLTt. Mascalero, N. Mex.; Hoopa, Cal., and Phoenix,
Ariz.
The Chairman. How did you find the conditions among the pupils
under your jurisdiction with reference to discipUne when you first
came here?
Miss Ridenour. Pretty bad.
The Chairman. How would you describe it?
Miss Ridenour. Impudent, saucy
The Chairman. Was there much immorality among them?
Miss Ridenour. Yes, sir; there was some. I could not tell you
how much. Right at first I did not fuid this out. I was here a short
time before I discovered the first cases.
The Chairman. What is the condition now with reference to the
same subject? Has it improved any?
Miss Ridenour. It seems to me that it is better.
The Chairman. Have you had much difficulty in handling the
girls?
Miss Ridenour. I have had some.
The Chairman. Have you had many conflicts with them?
Miss Ridenour. Several.
The Chairman. What is your relationship with them in a general
way? Is it cordial or raiher strained?
Miss Ridenour. It has been very stramed of late.
The Chairman. How long has it been since that began ?
Miss Ridenour. Sometime before Christmas, I think it started up.
Just since New Years it has been the worst. The first outbreak was
on New Year's Day.
The Chairman. Describe that outbreak.
Miss Ridenour. It was not just an outbreak. Really they dis-
obe3'ed me and went over my head.
Tlie Chairman. Appealed to the superintendent over you?
Miss Ridenour. Yes; appealed to the superintendent without
permission, and I would have given them that permission.
1196 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. Was that about the skating expedition?
Miss RiDENOUR. I was trying to get permission at the time over
the phone, to find out if he would allow us to go, but I happened to
see them sneeking out to go, and I did not know where they went.
I followed them to the door to see, while I was waiting for Mr. Fried-
man to come to the telephone.
The Chairman. Did 3'ou have a controversy with them?
Miss RiDENOUR. I just called them in and talked to them about
it and asked them why they did it.
The Chairman. You reproved them?
Miss RiDENOUR. I reproved them; yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did the superintendent sustain you? He sent
them back to you, did he not ?
Miss RiDENOUR. That was not taken up with the superintendent
at all.
The Chairman. They never did get their appeal before him ?
Miss RiDENOUR. He told the girls he would see me about it. That
is, he sent word to them by his wife. She went to the door.
The Chairman. How many girls have you under your jurisdiction?
Miss RiDENOUR. Two hundred and thirty-five right here on the
grounds. I have 87 in the country that I have a good deal of work
to do for.
The Chairman. Do you reside in the same building where they do ?
Miss RiDENOUR. I do.
The Chairman. Wliat is their general conduct in their rooms with
reference to being orderly or disorderly?
Miss RiDENOUR. In the way of keeping their rooms?
The Chairman. I mean in the way of being quiet and reserved.
Miss RiDENOUR. As a rule, they are very good.
The Chairman. Now, how do they keep their rooms?
Miss RiDENOUR. If we keep after them, they keep them prett}
good.
The Chairman. You have some trouble?
Miss RiDENOUR. Certainly; we have to be after them.
The Chairman. Do you remember the case of Jidia Hardin?
Miss RiDENOUR. The girl who was whipped by Mr. Stauffer;
yes, sir.
The Chairman. I wish you would teU about that.
Miss RiDENOUR. Begin at the beginning and tell the whole thing ?
The Chairman. Yes; briefly.
Miss RiDENOUR. Julia signed to go to the country for tlie first party
last spring. Everything went along all right until the day every-
thing was prepared to go, and when the time came to pack trunks
and get ready tliose for whom places had been assigned — I think we
packed the trunks the day before. When I sent for her to come and
pack lier trunk she refused to come. In the first place, I announced
m the mornmg that the girls who were to go were not to go to school.
When it came time for her to pack her trimk I sent to the school-
house for her and she did not come. I had to send Miss Aystin for
her. It was getting late antl all, and she would not hurry at aU.
She just lagged along and said she was not going and we could not
make her. so I appealed to Mrs. La Flesche, the outing manager, and
she saitl that Julia must go.
CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1197
Then we took it up to find out what her excuse was. She wanted
to wait for tlie next party, and I beHeve she said she did not have a
trunk; that she wanted to get the money that she expected for a new
trunk, as her trunk was not good. Then we excused her, and I
rushed aroung and got another girl ready on short notice to go in her
phice.
So it went on until the next time came. When the next party
came
The Chairman. How long was that after the first occasion ?
]\Iiss RiDEXouR. I think there was about four or six weeks between.
When it came time to pack trunks again I announced to her that
they had secured a place for her and that she would have to go the
next day. She told me she was not going. I did not pay much atten-
tion to it; I just supposed it was some of her foll}^ and that she would go.
She went off to school again and we had to send for her. We had
to go for her three or four times that day, one or the other of us, and
it was almost train time; that is, just time to get her packed to go
when the rest were to go. I did everything to try to pursuade her
that I could and to show to her that the only thing to do was to get
ready and go, and slie still refused.
I went up to Mr. Friedman and toltl him I could not do anything
with Julia; that she refused to go and said she would not go for any-
body. Mr. Friedman sent Mrs. La Flesche down, and she would not
do anything for her. Mr. Friedman said she must go. I went up
to her room and took her up there; I had almost to push her to her
room. I told her she must go anyhow and keep her promise this time,
and she would not do it.
Representative Carter. Did she have a trunk then ?
^'liss RiDENOUR. No; she had drawn her money and spent it for
other things.
I went down and called Mr. Friedman again, and Mr. Friedman
sent Mr. Stauffer; I think, and he said he happened to come into the
office at that time, so he called him. Mr. Stauffer came down and
I took liim up to her room, and he talked to her, and we both talked
to her and tried to pursuade her, and she just talked back to us and
told us there was nobody would make her do what she did not want
to do.
Mr. Stauffer went back and went to Mr. Friedman again, and she
ran off outside and told the girls how she talked to us, right in front
of the building here, and declared she would not go. But I went
after her and got her back in the office, and I was talking to her
when Mr. Stauffer came back. He took the case then and began to
talk to her and asked her if she would go and she said she would not.
He told her what she would have to do, and she got smart and imper-
tinent and said saucy things back, and he slapped her face. I think
he slapped her a couple of times, and she doubled up and dropped
down on the floor. 1 think he tried to get her up; we both tried to
get her up and we failed, and he pulled her over and spanked her.
The Chairman. What did he use ? A board ?
^liss RiDENOUR. I wont and got a piece of kindling.
The Chairman. How many times did he strike lior ?
Miss RiDENOUR. I do not know, but it was not half enough.
The Chairman. You think she did not get enough punishment ?
1198 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Miss RiDENOUR. Mrs. La Flesclie, she came in, and Mr. Stauffer
told her Jiow the thing was, and she said that was what she deserved.
She said too that slie had not got half enough.
The Chairman. Really, don't yon feel in a case like that— she is
about 18 years old, I believe — don't you think such a case had better
be handled in a different way than by having a man take a young
lady and spank her with a board ? Do you tliink it helped the
discipline of the school ?
Miss RiDENOUR. I certainly think it did.
The Chairman. Was that your intention in having it done ?
Miss RiDENOLTR. To do the riglit thing for the scliool and the gu'l.
Mrs. La Flesche came in and she talked to her again and she would
not get up. Then Mr. Whitwell came in and he talketl to her and she
would not get up for a long time. He told her she would have to go
and sign the check, and if she did not we would have to send her to a
reform school. So she finally got up and signed the check.
The Chairman. What is the rule about those outing parties ?
Miss RiDENOUR. It is their own free will to go if they want to, but
after they sign and all arrangements are made they are compelled to
go.
The Chairman. They are given the option ?
Miss RiDENOUR. They are given due consideration, and they are
given one chance to go back on their word, if they want to, and the
next time they are made to go through.
Representative Carter. She signed up a second time, did she ?
Miss RiDENOUR. This was the same time; she promised to go
the next time.
In the meantime Mr. Whitwell said she should be locked up. We
did that, so that the girls would not get to her and persuade her to do
something else. Mr. Whitw^ell went with me and took her to the
little lock-up we had, and locked her up in there. One of the matrons
went into the little clothing room, whicli is right off that room, and
she called to the matron and asked if she would send for Mr. Stauffer.
Mr. Stauffer came riglit back and he and I went right back to the
little lock-up and she apologized to both of us, and said she would go
on and be no more trouble at all. Then, rather than leave her in the
lock-up over night, we bothi told her we had forgiven her- — she asked
us if we would, and if it would make any difference to any one else,
and we told her we knew it wouhl not. I took her to my room and
kept her in my room, because I did not want her out where the girls
were, for fear the girls would get liold of her and persuade her to
go back.
In the meantime the boy she had been infatuated with during this
time, he found out she was in my room. He went up to the window
and had — she told the whole story. I trusted her and let her stay in
my room, and then she saw the boy — by tlie way, he has caused
more trouble than anything else.
The Chairman. Wiio is lie ?
Miss RiDENOUR. Tony Largeknees.
The Chairman. How did she get along?
Miss RiDENOUR. When she first went out she got along splendidly.
She got very good re{)()rts. She wrote me a letter thanking me for
what we had done for lier and said she was glad we had done it, and
it had done her lots of y;ood. And when she came back she walked into
(
CABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1199
the office and said she was glad Mr. Stauffer and I made her go, and
she has been one of the best girls up to about New Year's that we
have ever liad.
The Chairman. Did you ever liaA'e any trouble ^vith her other than
that time ?
Miss RiDENOUR. I came in January, and that was soon after I
came. Before that she was — I always thought she was- — one of the
leaders in throwing things. That is what they did when I first came
here.
The Chairman. They do not do that now?
Miss RiDENOUR. No, sir: they have been very good.
The Chairman. Was her conduct reported to the people she went
to?
Miss RiDENotTR. Yes, su\ She was taken out to the country all
the way by Mrs. I^a Flesche, so they would know what the}'' had to
deal with. I suppose she took her to Philadelphia
The Chairman. Were they instructed to curtail her privileges on
account of her conduct before she left the school ?
Miss RiDENOUR. 1 could not teU you that.
The Chairman. You do not know anything about what information
was communicated ?
Miss RiDENOLTR. No. But I know some of the letters that were
written back. She wrote to this boy some postal cards with all sorts
of stuff on them
The Chairman. Anything improper on them ?
Miss RiDENOUR. She wrote to this Tony w^hat she would do, that
she would run away and stay out all night — i)ut it on a postal card
and sent it through the post office. The boy was under punishment
at that time, and Mr. McKean noticed this card.
The Chairman. You are satisfied there was no foundation for her
statements that she had been so imprudent in her conduct ?
Miss RiDENOUR. They made a thorough investigation, and I think
they found out. The people said that she and another girl ran away
to a dance. Both the comitry mothers said she had never been out
of the house to their knowledge, they could not find out anything.
Nothing was ever said to the girl about it at all.
The Chairman. Do you know the feeling between Mr. Friedman
and the pupils generally? Do you know whether the relation be-
tween them is strained, or cordial?
Miss RiDENOUR. Well, at present it is strained, and at one time be-
fore it was. We opened up school with a very good feeling in Septem-
ber. Everything just seemed to be going on splendidly until the last
four or six weeks.
The Chairman. To what do you attribute the disaffection among
your ])upils ?
Miss RiDENom. Well, I am not real ])ositive, but I have felt that
there were em|)l()yees that have influenced the children. I have felt
that there was outside influence somewhere.
The Chairman. Have you any information as to that, or anv proof
of it ?
Miss RiDENOUR. I do not know that I have.
The Chairman. Is there much drinking among the boys. Miss
Ridenour?
1200 Carlisle indl^n school.
Miss RiDENOUR. 1 can not say. They have had a good many cases
of drunkenness here, I think.
The Chairman. Of course, you have no special jurisdiction over
things of that sort ?
Miss RiDENOUR. Only keeping them away from the girls.
The Chairman. Do you have much trouble in keeping the boys
awav from the girls ?
Miss RiDENOUR. I have had lots of trouble.
The Chairman. What precautions do you take, and what plans do
you pursue to prevent immoral relations between them ?
' Miss Ridenour. Well, I do not aUow them to go anywhere un-
chaperoned if I can help it. I keep as close a watch upon them in
ever}^ respect as I can.
The Chairman. I think it is in evidence that you reprove them
whenever you can.
Miss RiDENOUR. I think if you ask them they will know why.
They have done a great many things. The girls themselves opened
the door. The last case we had, one of the girls said in a letter that
the girl did it, and it was not the boys. They had to take a hasp off
the door, and they had to get a key some way. This was after this
trouble seemed to take hold of them. I attributed it mostly to this
quarantine business. We were quarantined on account of measles.
We were quarantined here for two months, and we have not been
allowed to go down town. We had to close the socials, and the boys
and girls said it was a pretext just to keep them from having socials.
That\ the way they would talk, and I think that is the way that door
was opened.
The Chairman. On that occasion was there evidence of improper
relationship between them, or was that just an effort to associate
together? • i i p
Miss Ridenour. I do not know. The girls said— the four that we
caught in this affair claimed that they were in a spirit of fun, and the
boys said they came there for that purpose.
Tne Chairman. How were the boys punished?
Miss Ridenour. Tney were locked up for a few days. I locked up
the girls here for a week, and they were told they were to be deprived
of all privilege of socials, going to town, and drawing money until
after commencement. I have carried that out so far, but one of the
boys has been to three receptions. That is what the boys are angry
at'me about, because they think I am punishing the girls, and the
boys have been so rebelhous against me.
Tne Chairman. I have not found any evidence of that.
Miss Ridenour. I can not go across the campus here that they do
not all shout, "Put her out."
Tne Chairman. Have you heard them make similar displays toward
the su])erintcndent? Have you heard them call him "Jev.," etc.?
Miss Ridenour. I have noticed the Iroys doing it. But they do it
to me every time I go on the campus, if there are a few of them
together, (u- even one. One was passing the dining room the other
evening, and he shouted at me, "Let them out," meaning, I suppose,
that I'xvas kee])iug the girls too close.
The Chairman. For my part, Miss Ridenour, I feel you have had
some very hard work, and you have been very unfortiuiatc in this
strained relation that has arisen. I would like to ask, if you care to
CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1201
suggest it, just what you think are the remedies i( r these conditi^'us.
I do not mean to urge it, because you are not charged with that
responsibility. If you have anything you want to suggest I would like
to have you do it.
Miss RiDEXOiiR. I feel positive that there is somebody in.fluencing
the children, both against me and Mr. Friedm.an. If you can not
find tluit out and remove it I do not think there is any remedy. That
is what I feel.
Represeiitative Carter. You think it is not confined to the chil-
dren ?
Miss RiDEXOLTR. I am almost positive it is not. Whenever I have
trouble with the children they go across to a certain teacher's
room
Representative Carter. Would you mmd telling us which one ?
Miss RiDENOUR. Miss Sweeney is one of them, and the Catholic
children are the ones she gets over there. And it appears that if I
correct a girl for something the next thing I know she is slipping out
and going over there, and she is not supposed to go without permis-
sion. When I found out the things that were going on, I got after
them about it. They think I am harsh.
The Chairman^. Do you think it would be possible to establish more
amicable relations with them by relaxing that harshness, if you will
call it that ?
Miss RiDEXOUR. My harshness ? My discipline ?
The Chairmax. Your method of discipline.
Miss RiDEXOUR. Yes; if I just let them go
The Chairmax. You think the primary consideration is that they
want more privileges ?
Miss RiDEXOUR. They would just as soon I would go down to my
room and stay all day and let them run the office. They have told
me that Miss Gaither did that. They would come in — 5, 6, 8, or 10 —
and sit on my desk, and I had to order them out. I told them the
office was a place of business, and they could not come in there and
talk about one thing and another. Whatever I have done, I have tried
to do for their interest. Of course, sometimes I have been angry, and
I have had occasion to be. If anybody else can go in there and do it,
I would like to see them.
Representative Stephens. Do any of the girls come to you and con-
sult with you in a motherly way ?
Miss RiDEXOUR. Some of them.
Representative Stephexs. How many ?
Miss RiDEXOUR. I could not say.
Representative Stephexs. As a rule, they refuse to come to you
unless they have to? Is that correct?
Miss RiDEXOUR. I do not think so. There are some that do not
come around.
Representative Stephexs. Do you believe it would be possible for
Mr. Friedman, in the condition you know the school to be in now,
to reinstate himself in the good graces of these children ?
Miss RiDEXOUR. I do not see why not. I positively feel it would
be the downfall of this school if Mr. Friedman is removed now. I do
not see why he could not. He has done everything that he could for
those children so far as I can see.
35601— PT 11—14 16
1202 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Representative Stephens. You say there is an estrangement now ?
Miss RiDENOUR. It seems to be. They are calling him names
Representative Stephens. The relations will have to be changed
from what they are now before the school will be put upon a proper
footing. Is that true?
Miss RiDENOUR. I suppose so. I have seen several little thmgs that
have caused me to think, but I could not positively prove it myself.
I have heard one girl say that she was called into Mr. WhitweU's
office . , .
Representatvie Carter. Mr. Wliitwell has always assisted you in
correcting the girls ? .-, -, ^ ■
Miss RiDENOUR. I do not know that I ever called upon him.
Representative Carter. Didn't you call upon him in the Julia
Hardin case ?
Miss RiDENOUR. Mr. Friedman called on him.
Representative Carter. He assisted you then, didn't he?
Miss RiDENOUR. He came over; yes.
Representative Carter. The conduct of t}ie girls toward you has
been very bad, >ou say ?
Miss RiDENOUR. Yes, sh-; at tunes.
Representative Carter. Did tjiat begin as soon as you came here ?
Miss RiDENOUR. Yes, su\
Representative Carter. Can you give us any idea about what the
cause of that was ? Do you know why they seemed immediately to
take a dislike to you?
Miss RiDENOUR. No; i do not.
Representative Carter. I would like to know something about
this trouble that }ou said started in January.
Miss RiDENOUR. Well, they just got unrul>-, and disobeyed.
Representative Carter. Do you know any cause for that?
Miss RiDENOUR. I attributed it to the quarantine. That is what
I thought all the time it was, because the}- said we were using tiiat as
a ])retext to keep the boys and ghls from getting together.
Representative Carter. How long has Julia Hardm been in school i
Mi-'s RiDENOUR. I could not tell you.
Representative Carter. Was she here when }ou came?
Miss RiDENOUR. Yes, sir. .
Representative Carter. What is lier school rating? Do >ou
know ?
Miss RiDENOUR. i could not tell you.
Representative Carter. Do you know v.liat lier ratings were tor
deportment ?
Miss RiDENOUR. No. 11-11
Representative Carter. Have >-ou ever )iad any trouble with her
except tjiis one time?
Miss RiDENOUR. Not an^- special trouble. When 1 firet came here
I tjiouglit she was one of them- I liave more trouble with the girls
m the business department than any otjier ghls.
Ropi'esentative Carter. Wjiat do you attirbute tliat to?
Miss RiDENOUR. Liberties tjiev take.
Re])resentative Carter. You do not think there was anyone m the
business de]iartment trving to ])rejudice }-ou ?
Miss RiDENOUR. Oh, no; I think they were given liberties over
there.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1203
Representative Carter. Hmv many girls have been locked up
since you have been }iere ?
Miss RiDENOUR. 1 could not tell you. A good nmny have.
Representative Carter. ^Miere do you lock them up?
Miss RiDENOUR. In some roon;s in the build uig.
Re]>resentative Carter. Is this the onh' girl you have had occasion
to inflict corporal punishment on ?
Miss RiDENOUR. No, sir.
Representative Carter. You )iave had to punish others?
Miss RiDENOUR. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. How many?
Miss RiDENOUR. I do not know. I have slapped several of their
mouths for impudence, and I have spanked two, or strapped them.
Representative Carter. This is tne only time that anyone has
been called in to assist ?
Miss RiDENOUR. That is the only time. I called Mr. Denny in one
morning, but there was nothing done. He just talked to the girl.
The Chairman. Who was that girl you heard say Mr. Whitwell
called her in his office and told hor what to say over here ?
Miss RiDENOUR. It was not the girl that was called in; it was one of
the other girls that was. Maud French, I think, was the girl.
The Chairman. Where was she when you heard her make that
remark ?
Miss RiDENOUR. It was in the hall at the cjuarters.
TESTIMONY OF DR. WAITER REK"DTORFF.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. How long have you been here, Doctor ?
Dr. Rendtorff. I came on the 1st day of January.
The Chairman. Where did you come from here ?
Dr. Rendtorff. Anadarko, Okla.
The Chairman. You are the physician at the school ?
Dr. Rendtorff. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What is the general condition of health in the
school ?
Dr. Rendtorff. Generally pretty fair.
The Chairman. How were you received when you came by the
superintendent and others ?
Dr. Rendtorff. Oh, with anything but the courtesy that I
thought was due me.
The Chairman. Tell me about it just a little in detail.
Dr. Rendtorff. Well, sir, I stepped to the door and rang. Mr.
Friedman came out and shook me very warmly by the hand, and called
me by some name which I have forgotten. I said, "You have made
a mistake; I am Dr. Rendtorff." His entire demeanor changed im^
mediately. He asked me to step in. He said a few words — asked
me why I came down here when tnere was a $40,000 hospital building
where I was coming from, and spoke a few more words. He then tola
me to go to the hospital with Dr. Allen, who was present in the room
at the time. I went with Dr. Allen, and m}^ conveisation with Mr.
Friedman was not very long.
The Chairman. Do you know why he resented your coming down
here ?
1204 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Dr. Rendtorff. I can not say that I know of any reason.
The Chairman. Is there much tuberculosis in this school ?
Dr. Rendtorff. From my own observation— I have not had a
very good oportunity to look all the children over. I have been pretty
busy here with measles. I did look all the records over though, when
I first came, which is quite a job. At that time I made some notes,
which I had not intended to use in this way at all. There are 18 cases
of glandular tuberculosis.
The Chairman. How many cases of pulmonary tuberculosis ?
Dr. Rendtorff. I do not know; I have not got that down. But I
have discovered since I came three cases of pulmonary tuberculosis,
two of which were so far along that I had to send them home.
The Chairman. Is there much trachoma ?
Dr. Rendtorff. I really can not tell you the percentage. There
is quite a bit. They have been pretty well taken care of.
The Chairman. That was the statement of Dr. Allen. He said,
however, that about 70 or 75 per cent of the pupils have trachoma in
some of its stages, but that it is pretty well under control.
Dr. Rendtorff. Yes, sir; it has been taken care of well. There
are seven cases of trachoma which should be operated upon. Some
of those are comparatively new students. Two, I know personally,
have just come in.
The Chairman. Why don't you operate?
Dr. Rendtorff. Oh, I am going to. I have made four tonsil
operations here lately.
The Chairman. What is the discipline of the school ?
Dr. Rendtorff. Why, I have been led to think it has not been
extra good.
TESTIMOI^Y OF HARVEY K. MEYER.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. Wliat is your business, Mr. Meyer?
Mr. Meyer. I am clerk here; generally called Mr. Friedman s clerk.
The Chairman. Have you observed the discipline in the school
recently ?
Mr. Meyer. Yes; I have.
The Chairman. Is it good or bad ?
Mr. Meyer. I would say it was quite bad.
The Chairman. Have you seen manifestations of disrespect on
the part of pupils toward the superintendent ?
Mr. Meyer. Yes, sir; I have. .
The Chairman. You have heard them jeer him and call him
"Jew" ?
Mr. Meyer. I have not heard tliat. I have heard it spoken
about; yes. i i j o
The Chairman. Wliat demonstrations have you seen and heard <
Mr. Meyer. There was an instance when two of our girls were sent
away, and it was about 5 o'clock in the evening, so they could take a
train at 5.41. They were brought to Mr. Friedman's office and l^ld
there some little time, and taken out the east entrance to our office
building. A number of the girls had congregated on the campus
because work had been discontinued. Mr. Friedman went out on the
campus and asked the girls to go back to the quarters. Tiiey refused
to do so, and openly called good-bye to those girls, which was the
CARLISLE INDLA.N SCHOOL. 1205
very; thing he wanted to prevent. That was the most flagrant case
of disobedience that I could mention.
The Chairman. Do the students chiim they do not get enougli
to eat ?
Mr. Meyer. I liave lieard that comphiint; yes.
The Chairman. Do they comphiin tliey do not get enough bread?
Mr. Meyer. Yes; I heard that comphiint about two weeks ago.
The Chairman. Wliat has been your experience in the service
heretofore ?
Mr. Meyer. I was at the Haskell Institute three and a half years,
under Supt. Pierce.
The Chairman. Do vou think this school is progressing satisfac-
torO y ?
Mr. Meyer. No: not at present.
The Chairman. What do you think is the remedy for the troubles ?
Mr. Meyer. I believe that we have to get a bigger man than Mr.
Friedman is; one who can get the respect of the students and can
get employees who are willing to do good work, so they can work
together.
The Chairman. Is the feeling of disrespect toward the superin-
tendent pretty general throughout the student body ?
^Ir. Meyer. I think so; very much.
TESTIMONY OF CHARLES H. CARNS.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. What is your business ?
All'. Carns. Painter.
The Chairman. You are employed at the Carlisle School?
Mr. Carns. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What are your duties?
Mr. Carns. Painter.
The Chairman. To give instruction in painting?
Mr. Carns. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How many pupils are detailed to vou ?
Mr. Carns. From 20 to 30 or 35.
The Chairman. How long should a pupil be permitted to remain
with you to receive proper training in the trade ?
Mr. Carns. Not less than tliree years.
The Chairman. How long do they stay here, as a rule ?
Mr. Carns. Two years and a half, or longer.
The Chairman. What percentage of them?
Mr. Carns. Oh, I could not say. I have four at the present time
that have been with me a little over two years.
The Chairman. The rest of them have been there a shorter time?
Mr. Carns. Yes, sir.
The CiLviRMAN. Very few of them are permitted to remain under
you long enough to learn the trade?
Mr. Carns. I do not think I ever had any over three years.
The Chairman. They are detailed somewhere else?
Ml-. Carns. They are taken out at times; yes, sir.
The Chairman. And detailed to some other duty?
Mr. Carns. Yes, sir.
1206 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. Have you ever been able to turn out a pupil that
has been able to do the class of work you seek to teach him to do ?
Mr. Carns. I have; yes, sir.
The Chairman. How many?
Mr. Carns. I do not remember. Probably I could name a dozen
or so if I look over my list.
The Chairman. That is a good trade, is it not ? There is quite a
demand for skillful carriage painters ?
Mr. Carns. Wc do not get much chance on carriage work, because
there is a carriage maker on the ground here most of the time outside.
TESTIMONY OF MARTIN L. LAXJ.
The mtness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. What is your employment ?
Mr. Lau. Carriage maker.
The Chairman. Have you a shop here for the instruction of pupils ?
Mr. Lau. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How many pupils are detailed for your depart-
ment ?
Mr. Lau. It is different; they run from 18 up to — at the present
I have 25.
The Chairman. How long does it take you ordinarily, or should
it take you, to properly instruct your students in that work ?
Mr. Lau. Not less than three years — that is, actual work.
I'he Chairman. What is the custom here, with reference to per-
mitting them to remain, or detailing them to other work ?
Mr. Lau. The students are detailed t6 other work before they get
a right start. Some few stay there until they are pretty good wagon
makers.
The Chairman. What per cent of them stay there and learn the
trade ?
Mr. Lau. Not over 2 per cent.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN A. HERR.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. You have charge of the carpenter shop ?
Mr. Herr. Yes, sir; the carpenter shop.
The Chairman. Is the shop pretty well equipped ?
Mr. Herr. Yes; very well equipped.
The Chairman. Properly equipped for instruction work, is it ?
Mr. Herr. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How many pupils are usually detailed for insttrc-
tion in your department ?
Mr. Herr. I could average in the winter time 40 to 41 ; sometimes
42.
The Chairman. Do the pupils here take to the carpenter's trade
pretty well ?
Mr. Herr. Oh, a certain per cent; not all.
The Chairman. Do you know how they are chosen; how the
superintendent or disciplinarian, or whoever it is makes the detail,
determines what number shall come to you?
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1207
Mr. IIerr. As far as I know, I think the boys are allowed to walk
around and select their place.
The Chairman. They are given some option ?
Mr. Herr. Yes, sir; I think so.
The Chairman, I believe I asked you how long it took to teach a
boy to become a fairly good carpenter?
Mr. Herr. No. They should be there from two and a half to
three years, at any rate.
The Chairman. Are the boys that are detailed to you permitted
to stay there that long ?
Mr. Herr. No, sir; may be 7 per cent, may be 6 per cent, out of
these 40.
The Chairman. Have you made any suggestions to the author-
ities in the school here that that system* ought to be changed and you
be given a chance to teach the boys so as to make them capable of
following the trade, and thus vindicate your position as instructor?
Mr. Herr. I have mentioned that to them frequently; yes, sir.
We have talked that matter over, that to make practical mechanics
of them they should be kept in the shop.
The Chairman. How is the construction work on the new build-
ings done, by student labor or by outside labor ?
Mr. Herr. Some of them.
The Chairman. What percentage of it?
Mr. Herr. Since I am here most of it has been done by student
labor.
The Chairman. Is it not a fact that all of the new buildings were
constructed by outside labor?
'Ml'. Herr. Yes, sir; all the new buildings — no, sir; there is two
new buildings that was not. There is two buildings done here that
was not.
The Chairman. If you had a proper detail and were permitted to
keep boys long enough to teach them, you ought to be able to con-
struct such buildings almost entirely by student labor ?
;Mi'. Herr. Certainly; we could do that during the summer season
if the boys were left here.
The Chairman. The boys are entitled to that instruction?
Mr. Herr. I thmk so; yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. You think the outing system, then, is
the reason why none of the boys can graduate in these industrial
pursuits ?
Air. Herr. I think undoubtedly that is the reason.
Representative Stephens. Many of them do not return at all, I
understand.
The Chairman. Does the football work interfere with your work?
Mr. Herr. Yes, it does to some extent. They are taken away
from there, you know.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM C. SHAMBAUGH.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. You are the blacksmith here?
Mr. Shambaugh. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you teach blacksmi thing to the pupils ?
Mr. Shambaugh. Yes, sir; I do the general work for the school,
too; yes, sir.
1208 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Tlie Chairman. How many pupils do you instruct?
Mr. Shambaugh. Now, last month I had 26.
The Chairman. Do they learn it pretty well ?
:Mr. Shambaugh. Not the full blacksmi thing. I do not pretend —
I try to make them good, efficient helpers. The last year they got a
number of applicants for boys to go out in shops for the summer, and
they get the real work there of a general blacksmith.
The Chairman. What length of time does your course contemplate ?
LIr. Shambaugh. Three years — that is, out in the shop. That is
what I served.
The Chairman. What do they pay you here?
Mr. Shambaugh. S800 a year.
The Chairman. How many boys do they detail, you say ?
Mr. Shambaugh. I had 26 last month, I think. I think I had 13
in the forenoon and 13 in the afternoon. This month, now, I have
had one or two more.
The Chairman. Are you furnished with quarters here ?
Mr. Shambaugh. No, sir; I asked, but they refused to give me
quarters. Wlien I came here I came under the conditions that I
was to get my $900, the same as the other men, and they said they
did not have quarters; and, of course, ]VIi\ Mercer left, and this man —
I asked this man also, and he did not give me any quarters, and I
did not get my raise either.
The Chairman. Neither the wagon maker, the tinner, the painter,
nor the carpenter get quarters ?
Mr. Shambaugh. No, sir. I don't know whether the others asked.
I know some of the rest did ask and were refused.
The Chairman. What percentage of the boys detailed to you
learn the trade ?
Mr. Shambaugh. A very small percentage.
The Chairman. Why ?
Mr. Shambaugh. Of course, this last year or so it is not so bad,
but heretofore they used to change the boys and take them out,
and the boys had lost interest in the business, and only a boy that had
aptitude would stick to it and learn the business. It is about three
years now that they have had the outing system now, and they go
out and earn a little money and also learn. There might be 8 or 10
boys I could mention that are carrying on business for themselves
and working that have made a success of it.
The Chairman. Does the superintendent appear to be interested
in the boys who engage in this work ? Does he come around the shop
there?
Mr. Shambaugh. He walks through, but he seldom stops and
gives any encouragement. He finds fault s metimes with things
that are absolutely unnecessary, in my estimation.
The Chairman. He does not give you much encouragement, or
the boys either ?
Mr. Shambaugh. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know that the boys complain that they
do not get enough to eat ?
Mr. Shambaugh. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What is their feeling generally, so far as you
know it, toward the su})erintendent ?
CARLISLE INDL4.N SCHOOL. 1209
Mr. Shambaugh. The majority of them have lost respect for their
heads.
The Chairmax. And they manifest that ?
Mr. Shambaugh. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Are tliere any buildings on the grounds
belonging to the school that would be available for housing you
gentlemen ?
^Ir. Shambaugh. I do not know. They have one right up here,
next to the superintendent, that is empty, for friends. I don't know
whether the friends have more money than the industrial men here
or not. Down here is Mr. Warner, the athletic man; he has got
one. Here is a nice place where a man has a whole house; that is,
Mr. Stauffer.
The Chairman. Room could be provided for both families ?
Mr. Shambaugh. I think so. Up here is a nice house that the
assistant superintendent used to be in. It would be a nice house
for a man that had a family.
Representative Stephens. Have any of you ever represented
these facts to the authorities ?
Mr. Shambaugh. When he put up the double cottage that the
carpenter spoke of I asked them for quarters, and he said that he
could not give individual quarters to the industrials at that time.
TESTIMONY OF H. GARDNER.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. What are your duties here, Mr. Gardner?
Mr. Gardner. Assistant carpenter.
The Chairman. Do you give any instruction to the pupils?
Mr. Gardner. I do.
The Chairman. Would it be practicable, in your judgment, for
the carpenter and assistant carpenter with proper details of students
to do tlie work on the buildings — the repair work and construction
work ?
Mr. Gardner. New buildings? I do.
The Chairman. How is it now done, generally?
Mr. Gardner. Here of late we have been hiring a good bit of
outside help, and the boys are sent out on farms. That is about why
.we do not get our buildings accomplished.
The Chairman. Wlio constructed the old buildings here?
Mr. Gardner. I did, sir.
The Chairman. How was that done ? Was that done with student
labor principally ?
Mr. Gardner. The biggest part of it. The building you are in
now was built ])y the boys.
The Chairman. Who was supermtendent at that time?
Mr. Gardner. Gen. Pratt.
The Chairman. How is the discipline conr|)ared to what it was
under other administrations ?
Mr. Gardner. Well, it is not what it ought to be.
The Chairman. What is the feeling among the pupils toward the
superintendent?
3lr. Gardner, Well, I could hardly tell you that.
1210 CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. Do you know whether they respect him or not ?
Do you have any evidence of their f eehng toward hnn ?
Mr. Gardner. No; nothing more than I was told. I did not see
it, but I was in the quarters here some time ago and they hooted
at him.
TESTIMONY OF HAREY B. LAMASON.
Tlie witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. What is your occupation here?
Mr. Lamason. Mason.
The Chairman. Brick masoii ?
Mr. Lamason. Brick, stone, plaster, and cement.
The Chairman. Do you give instructions to students in this work?
Mr. Lamason. I try to.
The Chairman. How many are usually detailed to your depart-
ment ?
Mr. Lamason. Sometimes I have as high as IS or 20, and some-
times none.
The Chairman. How many could you properly handle ?
Mr. Lamason. As many as they could give me.
The Chairman. Within what limit ?
Mr. Lamason. Well, I could handle 50, if I had the room, very
nicely.
The Chairman. Have you had an opportunity of completing the
training of the pupils assigned in this work? Do they take them
out from your detail, as in other cases, and send them somewhere
else?
Mr. Lamason. That is it.
The Chairman. Have you ever suggested to the management here
that that was an injustice to you and the pupils, in that it gave you
no opportunity of showing what your abihty for this training is, nor
what the jjupils could accomplish under it ?
Mr. Lamason. I have had a great deal of trouble in that respect.
The Chairman. To whom have you applied about it?
Mr. Lamason. The quartermaster, from whom I get most of my
orders, and also the superintendent.
The Chairman. What information do you get from them?
Mr. Lamason. It is not very encouraging.
The Chairman. In your judgment, does the management of the
school take a sincere interest in developing this work in this insti-
tution ?
Mr. Lamason. It is not instruction; it is a producer. Instruction .
is a secondary matter.
The Chairman. Instead of using it chiefly to train the boys to learn
the trade they use it for a source of profit to the institution ?
Mr. Lamason. Yes.
The Chairman. Have they ever hired outside masons and plas-
terers to do the work you and the boys could have done ?
Mr. Lamason. Not in the last two or three years. These cottages
was all done by outside labor, and the school building. We could
have done it.
The Chairman. Do you know the relationship between the super-
intendent and the pupils generally?
I
CARLISLE INDLA.X SCHOOL. 1211
Mr. Lamason. From my general experience, it has not been very
pleasant.
Tlie Chairman. Do the pupils seem to respect liim ?
P . Mr. Lamason. Not very much.
Representative Stephens. Do you mean to say the reason why so
many boys are sent away from these trades to the country is because
of the fact that they want the money for the school '.
Mr. Lamason. No; I don't mean that. The outing system, in my
line of business, is the finest thing they could get. I have appUca-
tions that they have refused to have go for $3 a day. One of them
tells me that he is getting S4 a day.
Representative Stephens. The outing agent interferes with the
boys ■{
Mr. Lamason. He does in that respect.
The Chairman. Why did he want them to take less than they were
offered ? Do you know X
Mr. Lamason. Well, I can not tell jow, unless it is this: He talked
to me afterwards. He says, "T spent $1,000 and three years in
school, and I don't think it is right for these boys to go out and make
more than I make." That is the answer he made to me.
I
TESTIMONY OF JOHN BOLTZ.
The mtness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. You are the shoemaker?
Mr. BoLTz. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How long have vou been shoemaker at the Carlisle
School ?
Mr, BoLTZ. Since three years last December, about the 15th of the
month.
The Chairman. Do you give instruction to pupils in making shoes ?
Mr. BoLTz. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you also do repair work for the school ?
Mr. BoLTZ. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you make shoes?
Mr. BoLTz. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How many pairs do you make in your shop in a
given year ?
Mr. BoLTZ. I think, close on to 200 pair last year.
The Chairman. How many boys are detailed to study shoemaking ?
Mr. BoLTZ. During last month, something like 1 1 .
Tlie Chairman. They can not learn that business very quickly,
can they ? How long does it take ?
Mr. BoLTZ. Of course, they could come and get an idea in a couple
of years, but they ought to have three years.
The Chairman. How many have worked that long?
Mr. BoLTz. Very few.
The Chairman. What per cent of tliose assigned to you ?
Mr. BoLTz. I should say, of the 18, there would not be more than
four or five, probably.
Tlie Chairman. Ii they gave you plenty of work and the work was
encouraged so that the pupils took hold of it and pursued it ^\^th
interest for the purpose of making it a trade, could you do all the
shoe work necessary for the school ?
1212 CARLISLE INDIA.N SCHOOL.
Mr. BoLTZ. That is quite a hard matter for me to settle. Of
course, if I had more experienced boys we could make more.
The Chairman. Would it not be a good plan to try to develop the
work so as to do tliat ?
Mr. BoLTZ. I think it would; yes, sir.
The Chairman. How long do they let the boys stay there?
Mr. BoLTZ. They make very frequent changes.
The Chairman. Do tjiey consult you ?
Mr. BoLTZ. No; they do not.
The Chairman. Do they come to you to find out what progress a
boy is making before they change him? Do they sometimes take
away your very best employees?
Mr. BoLTz. Very often. That is where I think they make a very
big mistake, by not consulting me before they make a change.
The Chairman. To a man that confesses that he does not know
anything about it, it would seem if they were trying to give instruc-
tion they would not take anyboily out of the work that was makmg
rapid progress and had a chance to become skillful in the trade.
Mr. BoLTZ. A certain boy I just had last month, he takes a big
interest in shoemaking— they took him out, and the boy promised he
would come back next month. That is very often the case, and that
is a drawback in the shop.
The Chairman. You get a salary of $660 ?
Mr. BoLTZ. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You have to pay your rent ?
Mr. BoLTz. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you get any supplies from the farm ?
Mr. BoLTz. No, sir.
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT B. GEORGE.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. You are the tinner here ?
The Chairman. Have you a shop and do you give instruction to
pupils in your work ?
Mr. George. Yes, sir. .
The Chairman. How many men can you instruct m that trade
at a time? ^, . , ^ „ i .
Mr. George. Well, I had 16 last month. This month I am 2 short.
The Chairman. Is that the capacity of your shop to instruct ?
Mr. George. It is according to my tools. I have not tools
enough, in fact, for that. . . ^ , ^
The Chairman. How long does it take to learn the tmnmg trade ?
Mr. George. They ought to be there three years.
The Chairman. How long have you been there ?
Mr. George. Three years the first of last January.
Tlie Chairman. How many boys have you under you now that
have been with vou continuoiislv or approximately so ?
Mr. George. I have two boys that were with me part of last year.
Then, of course, they went to\he outing and stayed out.
The Chairman. So that you have not had an opportunity of com-
pleting anyone in that course ?
Mr. George. No, sir.
1
I
CABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1213
The Chairman. Have you complained or suggested to the manage-
ment of the school the inadvisability of this system that makes it
impossible for you to show your efficiency as instructor?
Mr. George. I spoke of it to the quartermaster.
The Chairman. What does he say?
Mr. George. Well, we don't get any satisfaction from him. He
seems to tliink the plan is to keep them moving about. Especially
when we have some big work in the summer time and not many boys,
I would go to him and make a real complaint and tell him we would
have to have more.
The Chairman. Most of the boys you had last year you have al-
ready said are on farms ?
Mr. George. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF R. C. RENNEKER.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. Do you run the bake shop for the school?
Mr. Renneker. Yes, sir.
Tlie Chairman. In connection with that do you do any work in
instructing the pupils?
Mr. Renneker. Yes, sir.
Tlie Chairman. Has the shop capacity enough to make enough
bread to supply the school?
Mr. Renneker. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How much bread do you make daily?
Mr. Renneker. Well, it runs different. Some days I could average
about 1,000 loaves a day, and other days about 1,500 to 1,600 a day.
Last week I had two days that it ran 1,500 or 1,600, and the other
days 1,000 loaves, but tliis week it ran three days 1,500. I can bake
more. It is just as easy to bake more.
The Chairman. Do you bake the amount you are instructed to
bake, or do you
Mr. Renneker. That is the thing. I generally do the best that I
know how. I figure on so many pounds of bread, or so many loaves
to a meal.
The Chairman. Who determines how many loaves shall be baked
for a meal ?
Mr. Renneker. We run it this way. One day last week the dining-
room matron — she will say "We had bread left over for dinner."
The next day it may be they will be a way short . It is hard to reg-
ulate.
The Chairman. Are you not furnished a regular ration to bake
and prepare for the tables ?
Mr. Renneker. Well, they are telling me right along that I am
running over on the flour. So I estimate one day what I should do.
He says, ''You are only supposed to use 600 and some a day." Well,
they were kicking for more bread and I was trying to get along the
best I knew how.
The Chairman. There was great complaint?
Mr. Renneker. Oh, yes; there was complaint about the bread and
yet I was still issuing more. And then when I would hand my report
in they would say, "I don't know what we will do. Your arc going
1214 CARLISLE INDMN SCHOOL.
over your allowance." Last month it ran, I guess, 300 pounds over
the allowance.
The Chairman. On the one hand the pupils were complaining
greatly that they were not getting enough bread, and on the other
hand the quartermaster was complaining that you were consuming
too much? I suppose it is needless to ask you if you were baking
all the flour you were consimiing ?
ISJj'. Renneker. Oh, yes, sir; I was cooking from 700 pounds a
day to 1,100 pounds a day. I averaged some days 1,100 pounds.
This week I averaged three days 700 pounds.
The Chairman. What caused you to bake more recently?
Mr. Renneker. The dining-room matron said Mi". Linnen said
they were not getting enough bread and they should have more. So
I said, ''We will give them all they can eat." I don't know what
to do.
Senator Lane. Haven't you got a regular ration of bread ?
Mi\ Renneker. Just the allowance of flour.
Senator Lane. But you knew definitely how many loaves that
will make ? You know how many slices it will cut ?
Mr. Renneker. A barrel of flour will average 300 loaves. This
flour is weak — it is county flour. It does not produce the bread that
western flour does. Western flour produces maybe 310 to 312 or
315 loaves to a barrel. This runs sometimes not 300.
Senator Lane. It is short in gluten?
The Chairman. What else do you bake besides bread ?
Mr. Renneker. Now, I bake gingerbread, corn bread, and pies.
The Chairman. How long have you been doing that?
Mi\ Renneker. That I have been doing all along, and rolls. I
always baked rolls until about January. The quartermaster said to
give them rolls, but it does not seem to make any effect on the bread.
It seems to me to take just as much bread. They seem to carry
them out in their pockets. So he said, "Don't make any more rolls
until we catch up with the flour." Well, I have been catching up,
and I have not made any yet. We made rolls on Wednesday, corn
bread on Thursday, gingerbread on Friday, and pies on Saturday.
The Chairman. How many pies do you make on Saturday.
Ml*. Renneker. To-day I made 155.
The Chairman. Is that the regular number you have been making ?
Mr. Renneker. One hundred and fifty I was running.
The Chairman. Wliat kind of pies were those?
Mr. Renneker. To-day I made plum ])ie.
The Chairman. I think I can testify that they were very good.
Would 1 50 pies go around to the pupils and employees ?
Mr. Renneker. Just the students.
The Chairman. How many students are there here?
Mr. Renneker. Now, 1 don't roaUy know; I think 816.
The Chairman. Eight hundred and sixteen pu])ils. That would
not make a slice around, would it?
Mr. Renneker. They are only figuring on 509, or somethhig hke
that.
The Chairman. So they get i)ic once a week, ghiger bread once a
week, corn bread once a week ?
Mr. Renneker. And rolls; they always did until January.
The Chairman. And the rest of the bread served is light bread?
I
CARLISLE INDMN SCHOOL. 1215
Mr. Renxeker. Yes, sir.
Senator Laxe. Have you turned out any accomplished bakers, who
have learned their trade from you ?
Mr. Rexxeker. I tell you the boys here can not go quite far enough
to go in a shop and run it. My boys, two of them, was here when I
came, and they asked me to get them work, and I got both of them
work in bake shops last summer, and the summer before, and they
are holding their jobs.
Representative Stephexs. Have you heard any complaints among
the students about not having enough food to eat ?
Mr. Rexxeker. Oh, lots of them.
Representative Stephexs. For how many months or years ?
Mr. Rexxeker. 1 have been here a year last May, and ever since
I have been here 1 have heard them complain for more bread. My
shop is not altogether sanitary for baking.
Representative Carter. Wliat is your judgment? Do you think
the boys were getting enough bread '(
Mr. Rexxeker. I really don't know. The boys stick the bread
in their })0ckets, maybe half of them, and the other half won't get the
bread. They carry the bread out of the dining room, and there is
where they run short of bread. The matron tells me if they would
not carry that bread out of the dining room they probably would have
enough to eat.
Senator Laxe. How many students are there ?
Mr. Rexxeker. Eating in the dining room ? Five hundred and
sixty, they t^ll me.
Senator Laxe. How many altogether ?
Mr. Rexxeker. Really I couldn't say.
The Chairmax. Eight hundred and sixteen, somebody says.
Senator Laxe. Wliere do the rest of them eat ?
Mr. Rexxeker. At the hospital and the teachers' quarters.
The Chairman. Don't you bake bread for them?
Mr. Rexxeker. No; they get flour from me. They feed the
students at the teachers' quarters, but I issue them flour, about 100
pounds a month. In January they got 100 pounds a month. I don't
know how much they are allowed, but when the quartermaster tells
me to I give it to them.
Thereupon at 6.30 p. m. a recess was taken.
AFTER RECESS.
The commission reassembled at 8.15 o'clock p. m. at the New
Wellington Hotel, Carlisle, Pa.
TESTIMONY OF MISS VIRGINIA PENROSE.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairmax. You reside in Carhsle?
Miss Penrose. Yes.
The Chairmax. Are you acquainted with Supt. Friedman?
Miss Pexrose. I am.
The Chairmax. Are 3"ou familiar with conditions existing at the
Carlisle School ?
Miss Pexrose. I am.
1216 OAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. Do you know the present conditions in the school
with reference to discipline? Are you in the habit of visiting the
school ?
Miss Penrose. Oh, yes. I go out quite often. We have guests
staying with us, and it is one of the things we have that we take them
out to see. I was out there only last fall. I went through the
kitchens. My guests and I went out there, and we went through
the kitchens just before they served dinner, and my aunt made the
remark how fortunate those men were to have such good food.
The Chairman. Were you in the dining room at the time the meals
were being served ?
Miss Penrose. We went through the kitchen before, and then
when the meal was being served we were in the dining room, and my
aunt made the remark how fortunate those men were.
The Chairman. Do you know whether or not the complaint is
made that the food is insufficient m quantity ?
Miss Penrose. I have not heard it. I have only heard it from the
"fanatics" I call them.
Senator Lane. How long since ?
Miss Penrose. Only recently; only since this last trouble.
Senator Lane. Do you eat oatmeal gruel for breakfast?
Miss Penrose. Every morning.
Senator Lane. Tiien let me ask you something. Tiie oatmeal
ration there is 5 pounds of oatmeal for 100 people.
Miss Penrose. Is it gruel?
Senator Lane. No; it is put with enough water to make a porridge
for 100 people. Would tb.at strike you really, as a housekeeper, as
being enougli?
Miss Penrose. Well, I hardly know. I think if they made it
very soft, I think it would be.
Senator Lane. You think that would be enough?
Miss Penrose. Of course, I only supply for a few people — just two
or three.
Senator Lane. Now, then, a half pound of 20-cent tea —you don't
buy that kind, do you ?
Miss Penrose. We buy 50-cent tea.
Senator Lane. 20-cent tea. Oolong, black, for 100 people
Miss Penrose. Well, I don't know. I have an aunt who is very
rich, in Philadelphia, and she buj'^s what they call "charity" tea
from Christison in New Yorlc for 2-5 cents a pound. She uses that.
Senator Lane. Would that ^3tI•ike you as being good rich tea?
Miss Penrose. I should not think it would be; no. Of course
I could not tell, because I do not drink any tea. I could tell you
more about coffee, perhaps.
Senator Lane. That attracted my attention; and when you spoke
about the meal being well pre])ared
Miss Penrose. I saw what they had for dinner that day. They
had very good meat, and potatoes
The Chairman. Do you know how often they have potatoes?
Miss Penrose. No.
The Chairman. Do you know how often they have meat?
Miss Penrose. I thought they had meat every day.
Senator Lane. They cooked up to-day 415 pounds of meat for
615 peo])lo. Now, I used to be superintendent of a hospital. I
CARLISLE INDL\X SCHOOL. 1217
cooked for 600 ])eoplc — just tlio same niinilx'r. I cooked 600 pounds,
and they used meat for two meals.
IVIiss Penrose. Are not things a good deal more expensive I
Senator Lane. Yes, tliey are: hut that does not satisfy your
appetite.
The Chairman. You were stating a while ago, before the com-
mission met, that you would give something about the circumstances
that led up to the disturbances. If you know what they are, I
would be glad to have you state.
Miss Penrose. The statement was what 1 had gathered of these
women that I think are fanatics, and they started up because they
are against the Roman Catholics.
The Chair>[AN. You think all the trouble in the school is due to
religious dispute i
Miss Penrose. 1 think it is. 1 wish to say another thing. When
they found Mr. Friedman went to the Episcopal Church last year,
I think it made it more so.
The Chairman. Do you know how many of the children arc
Catholics i As a matter of fact, the number of Catholic pupils in
the school appears to be only about one-fourth of the pupils.
Miss Penrose. I feel myself that it would be a great deal better
for them to go to the Catholic Church — the Indians. That is what
I told Miss Richards when she asked me last year. She said, "Do
you go out to the Indian school and take any interest in the boys and
get them to go to your church?" I said, "No." I said, "What
are you doing with them at your house ?" "What right have you ?"
She said, "Well, I am going to keep him from going to the Catholic
Church." I said, "Well, if he wants to go to the Catholic Church,
let him go there."
The Chairman. You think it would l)e well for him to go to church
somewiiere ?
Miss Penrose. They would do anything against the Catholic
Church.
The Chairman. Who is that ?
Miss Penrose. Miss Jean Richards.
The Chairman. Who is she?
Miss Penrose. She lives here in town. She lives on West Poniford
Street. I used to see quite a little of them; I used to go down there;
and the older sister, Miss Ann Richards, I was very fond of; but
I got into such a violent discussion I made up my mind I would
never go into the house again, if I could help it.
The Chairman. Are you ])ersoiially familiar with conditions at
the school? What ojiportunity have you had of knomng?
Miss Penrose. Well, I have been out there. I have been a visitor.
The Chairman. How long ago was the last time?
Miss Penrose. To go through the school ?
The Chairman. Yes; to make observations?
Miss Penrose. I was out there last October. I went through the
school, as I said, taking my friends out there.
The Chairman. Have you ever examined the beds?
Miss Penrose. No; because I never went into those quarters,
except just simply to pass through different departments.
35601— PT 11—14 17
1218 CARLISLE INDIAK" SCHOOL.
The Chairman. Do you know what the stat:' of feeling is between
the pupils generally and the superintendent ?
Miss Penrose. No; I do not. I have only heard recently of this
feeling, since the Indians have been persuaded by certain parties in
town to sign a petition against Mr. Friedman.
The Chairman. Wliat people are 3^011 speaking of?
Miss Penrose. These fanatics, the Richards and all those fanatics.
The Chairman. I can not be expected to know all the fanatics,
you know.
Senatoi Lane. And you think they interfere?
Miss Penrose. I think they have interfered decidedly.
Senator Lane. And they are not Catholics ?
Miss Penrose. No; they are Presbyterians, the bluest kind.
Senator Lane. We had not heard of this.
Miss Penrose. Dr. Walker went down to this auxiliary last winter
that I went to in Mcchanicsburg. He said he felt really that the
superintendent favored the Catholic churches.
Senator Lane. The Catholic children out there complain that they
are not getting the privileges of their church.
Miss Penrose. This is what Dr. Walker said. He said he thought
they entirely sympathized with the Catholics, and allowed the
Catholics — • — -
The Chairman. They complain the other way.
Miss Penrose. He states the girls feel as though they are cut out.
The girls are not allowed to go to the early morning mass, because
they are not allowed to have a chaperone, and they could not get a
volunteer to take the girls in to church in the early morning.
Senator Lane. Something of that sort. Now, there is out there,
I will say to you, a great deal of dissatisfaction among the students
against the management of the institution. How it arose we do
not know.
Miss Penrose. I think it is incited by these people in town.
Representative Stephens. Have you seen any drunkenness
among the pupils?
Miss Penrose. I have never seen one.
Senator Lane. Now, last night there were seven boys in the guard-
house locked up for drunkenness.
Miss Penrose. It is probabh^ very hard to control.
Representative Stephens, You do not know anything about the
moral conditions?
Miss Penrose. No, I do not.
The Chairman. Do you know anything about the academic or
vocational wq^k that is done ?
Miss Penrose. I have been through the school just to see the
school. I have only been through the school to see the children
doing their work, like dressmaking, an.d tilings like tlint. They seem
to be doing well. That is all I c;^]i tell you.
The Chairman. Are the people in the town nttju'hed to the Car-
lisle school generally ?
Miss Penrose. Yes, I think they are attached to it. Tiicy are
rather proud of it; they take their friends out to see it.
The Chairman. Thank you very much. We are very glad to
have had vour statement.
.-I
CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1219
TESTIMONY OF MRS. EMMA H. FOSTER.
The witness was duly swcu'ii Ijy (he chairman.
The Chairman. You are one of the teachers at the Carlisle Insti-
tute?
Mrs. Foster. I am.
The Chairman. How loiii; liave you l)een em'|>loyed there?
Mrs. Foster. El(>ven years n(>xt September.
The Chairman. Are you familiar with conditions at the school,
and with the progress that is heing made in the work generally?
Mrs. Foster. Why, I think so.
The Chairman. Wliat is your assignment (
Mrs. Foster. I have the senior chiss.
The Chairman. You are teaclier of the seni(n' class?
Mrs. Foster. Yes.
The Chairman. What salarv do you get?
Mrs. Foster. I get S810. I get $810 for teaching in the academic
department, and since last September I have had charge of the
Y. W. C. A. work, and I am paid SI 5 a month for that.
The Chairman. That is out of the athletic fund?
Mrs. Foster. I do not know.
The Chairman. I would be very glad to have you go ahead and
make a statement as to wdiat vou know concerning conditions out
there ?
Mrs. Foster. In my own w-ay?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mrs. Foster. In vvhat respect?
The Chairman. You prefer to bo (questioned?
Mrs. Foster. Yes; I want to do the right tiling, and I wish you
woidd ask me questions.
The Chairman. What is the condition of the discipline in the
school ?
Mrs. Foster. Why, I have been there eleven years luider the
three su])erintendents, and always during that time without castr-
ing any reflections on the superintendents at aU-\ve have had more
or less immorality, we have had runawiiys, drunkenness, and all
those thin.gs more or less.
The Chairman. Wluit is the condition in the school now^ com-
pared with other administrations with reference to discipline?
Mrs. Foster. I was under Gen. Pratt two years, and Gen. Pratt
was fortunate in having a splendid disci]dinari-iu v-^ho was intensely
loyal to him Mr. Thompson. H(! had a personality that made the
children fe ir him ?
The Chairman. Did they respect him?
Mrs. Foster. I think they did.
The Chairman, l^o the pupils in the school generally res])ect the
})resent superintendent ?
Mrs. Foster. Yes, they do — well, let me go back. Up to De-
cember sometime the school was harmonious, and we were all happy;
and we were congratulating ourselves on the way things w^ere going.
^Suddenly there were rumors that the children were getting up peti-
tions, and they were unhappy and doing all sorts of things. 1 know
Indian children. If I talk too long I don't know whether I will say too
many things — but I will go on in my own way.
1220 CAKLISLE INDIAK SCHOOL.
You knf)\v, we have had the measles. The chihh-eji were quaran-
tined, and they became restless. They natural!}" crave excitement —
they have had a great deal of it — and it seems to me it was more for
excitement than anything else. When Mr. Friedman came there
the children seemed to like him, and of course there were murmurs
every once in a while. There were under the three superintendents
for that matter, if anyone listened to them. And they were growing
in respect for him until just before the holidays. What brought
about that change I do not know; I could Jiot swear to that. I sur-
mise, but I could not sw^ear to that. I do know that I have heard
employees speak disrespectfully of him. I have heard people call liim
"Moses" before the children.
The Chairman. You mean employees there at the school?
Mrs. FosTEE. Yes; I have heard Miss Canfield speak of him as
"Moses." I have heard Mr. Whitwell find fault with liim and thi'ow^
all the responsibility on liim and speak as though he were hampered
and could not have his own way about anything at all, right before
the children, ajid of course the children are very susceptible to those
influences. So of course the discontent has grown.
The Chairman. There is now a feeling of hostility between the
superintendent and the pupils quite generall}'?
Mrs. Foster. Quite generally, but if they feel the^^ are not listened
to — I speak from hnig years of experience
The Chairman. I do not care to argue it; I am simply asking about
the facts.
Mrs. Foster. Yes; that is recejit.
The Chairman. You think it is due to efforts on the part of em-
ployees of the school to arouse them in insurrection ?
Mrs. Foster. I think it has a great deal to do with it; and I think
that that atmosphere of opposition, that they can feel at once, has
influenced them.
The Chairman. How do the girls get along with the matron ?
Mrs. Foster. They find a great deal of thought because she wants
to do right by them.
The Chairman. You think she is right and they are wrong.
Mrs. Foster. I do; I do. She may be a httle hasty sometimes,
but she has their interest at heart, and she is trying to bring order
out of chaos. There is no doubt about that.
The Chairman. Has she succeeded, in. your judgment?
Mrs. Foster. She has, up to Christmas time wheji this discontent
arose.
The Chairman. When did this trouble begin ?
Mrs. Foster. Just about the holidaj^s.
The Chairman. Up until the holidays conditions were fairly satis-
factory ?
Mrs. Foster. I say, we were congratulating ourselves upon peace-
ful conditions. The school had started right, and we were generally
quite happy.
The Chairman. What is the general character of the student body
there \nth reference to being orderly or disorderly ?
Mrs. Foster. Why, they are orderly.
The Chairman. Are Indian pu})ils easily controlled or difficult to
control?
CARLISLE INDLA.N SCHOOL. 1221
Mrs. Foster. Oh, easil}' controlled. Tliey have the greatest sense
of justice. I have never sent a ])upil to the prmcipal myself. Never
until the last few clays have I felt any op]M)sition in my schoolroom.
Now. Rose Lyons and some of the oirls have heeji sent for to come
down to the office. 1 do not know what it is, but certainly they have
changed. It is the first time in 22 years that I liave cvei- had such an
experience as that.
The Chairman. AVlien was tlie lirst time you l)egan to (hscover
opposition ?
Mrs. Foster. Not strong opposition; it was just the girls. Thi-ee
or four of them — Marguerite Chilson, Rose Lyons, and one or two
others- showed a difference in tlieir manner, and yet at the same time
they acted a little ashamed of it.
The Chairman. Do you have any trouble controlling your pupils?
Mrs. Foster. I never have liad. I think they are the easiest chil-
dren to control. I think disci])line is whatever the liead of the depart-
ment— the attitude of the head of the department toward the children.
It takes patience and considerable vigilance.
The Chairman. Do 3-ou think Mr. Friedman is affectionate toward
the pupils ?
^L's. Foster. I am i)ositive he has their interest at heart.
The CnAiRiCAN. I asked you if he w\'is affectionate toward the
pupils.
Mrs. F0.STER. Yes: I think lie has an affection for the ]nipils. He
is not a demonstrative man.
Representative Carter. You sa}' you think the pupils are whoUy
to blame in their trouble ^^-ith Miss Ridenour ?
Mrs. Foster. "NATiolh- to blame?
Representative Carter. Yes.
Mrs. Foster. I tell j^ou, I think like this, if I may go back. The
change from Miss Gaither to Miss Ridenour was very great. They are
entirely different personalities. Miss Gaither is fond of a joke. In
the first place, I want you to understand that I am very fond of ^liss
Gaither. but she is not the disciplinarian that Miss Ridenour is.
When Miss Ridenour first came the}' naturally resented the manner
she took with them, because she would be obeyed. I do not hear
them myself, but I know .she has had trouble with them and they
were disrespectful.
Repiesentative Carter. She has had to inflict cor])oral ]iunish-
ment upon quite a good many of them, has she not (
Mrs. Foster. I never knew it.
Representative Carter. We got that from her herself.
Mrs. Foster. It has not come to me. I think that is Rose Whip-
per. She is a full-blooded Sioux girl.
Representative Carter. Do 3'ou know anything about the trouble
she had \\\X\\ Juha Hardin ?
Mrs. Fo.sTER. Only from hearsay. She did not come to me, but
Rose did. Rose came to me and wept bitterty. I said, "Rose, were
3'ou not in the MT(tng too V And she saw it as I did.
Representative Carter. Without criticizing either si(k\ what do
you think ab;)nt (•or[)oral punishment for grown girls?
Mrs. Foster. I have a daughter of my own, and I have never
touched her, nor would 1 pei'iiiit anyone else to do so; but T have never
been tried that wav. 1 do not know— of course, 1 think it is an
1222 CARLISLE INDLVN SCHOOL.
indignity, but wlien a girl herself owns up she needed it it seems to me
it is the right thing.
Representative Carter. How do 3"ou feel towar(i a person who
does milict corporal punishment?
Mrs. Foster. I would not have it with my own daughter, but my
daughter was brought up differently. 1 have heard these children
say, ''1 like people that are strict." Indians very often say that.
They like people that are strict, if that strictness is tempered with
justice.
But when Miss Ridenour came, to go back to that, most of the girls
were fond of Miss Gaither, and they resented the change; but T»kliss
Ridenour is a woman who is trying to do right. T do not see how
anyone can look at her and doubt that. She has an affection for the
girls. She has made a wonderful change in those quartere. Oh, I
certainly feel this. I don't know what the outcome is going to be
at all, but I certainly feel this strongly, that it would be a dreadful
thing to take away Miss Ridenour or Mr. Friedman now. The child-
ren would have a cinch on tbe situation. They are sensing that now,
saying "See what we can do." Mr. P'riedman is a clean man, and
he has improved perfectly wonderfully since he came. He would be
a hard man to succeed.
Representative Stephens. Is there any complaint about their not
getting enough to eat ?
Mrs. Foster. Oh, they do that at every school. Under Mr. Pierce
there were tlie bitterest complaints. That is the general complaint
at every Indian school.
Representative wStepiien.s. They always have good bread over here,
and they have plenty of it ?
Mrs. Foster. 1 have never heartl th.em say that they did. not have
enough bread: 1 never have. Tliey often make fun of the gravy.
Representative Stephens. Do you know how often they get butter ?
Mrs. Foster. 1 think only twice a week.
Representative Stephens. Potatoes?
Mrs. Foster. No; I don't laiow. They have had more vegetables
under tnis athninistration than ever before.
Representative Stephens. They get meat, and bread, and brotli,
as a rule ?
Mrs. Foster. xVnd gravy, alway.s gravy; and pie certain days.
Tlie Chairman. Thank you, Mrs. Foster. We arc glad to have had
your testimony.
TESTIMONY OF MR, GLENN S, WARNER.
Tile witness was duly sworn b>" the chairman.
The Chairman. You are wliat is called the "coach " ?
Mr. Warner. 1 am athletic director of the Carlisle Indian School.
Tlie Chairman. How long have you filled that position?
Mr. Warner. I cajue to the school in 1899, when Gen. Pratt was
there, and staved tiu>re until he left in the sja-jng of 1904. Then F
went to Cornell in the same ca})acity, and came back to Carlisle in
January,] 907, and was there one year under Maj. Mercer. Then
Mr. Friedman cajue there, and 1 have been there ever since.
The Chairman. The atidetic work at the college is k('i)t, in large
degree, separate from the institute ])roj)er, b; it not t
Carlisle i^-dia^' schoul. 1223
Mr. Warxer. Well, the athletics are managed h\ the athletic
association under the su])ervLsion of a sujierintendent.
The Chairman. What is the athletic association ?
Mr. Warner. It is composed of the boys who have won their
school letter — the ' 'C" we call it.
The Chairman. What does that n'.ean (
Mr. Warner. Tliat means tliat they have represented the school
in an intercollegiate com])etition; that is, they nave been on one of
the teams. It is com})osed of those boAs, together with the super-
intendent, the athletic director, and the s(*cretarv and treasurer.
The Chairman. It is a corporation, is it not?
Mr. Warner. Yes, sir. Wlien I iirst came there there was no
association; it was calleil the athletic association, Imt Gen. Pratt
was th(> association. Then when Maj. Mercer came there it was
formally organized and adopted a constitution and bylaws, etc.,
and since Mr. Friedman has beeii there it has been incorporated.
The Chairman. Did you ])rom])t or hisjnre the incorporation?
Mr. Warner. Why, we talked it over
The Chairman. 1 mean, did um suggest it!'
Mr. Warner. Xo, sir.
The Chairman. How did uni come tu uicor]>orate ? What was
the idea ?
Mr. Warner. Why, most of the associations we have relations
with at colleges ami universities are incorporated athletic associa-
tions, and it gives them a little more standmg and enables them to
transact theu' business in a little .uore businesslike manner.
The Chairman, "^'ou are eiujloyed, I i ssume, by the athletic
association ?
Mr. Warner. Yes, su*.
Tlie Chairman. ^ on have no direct comiection with the Govern-
ment whatever ?
Mr. Warner. Xo more than I have to conduct the athletics
there under the supervision of the supermtendeiit.
The Chairman, ^^^^at are the sources of income of the association ?
Mr. Warner. Why, tli(\v are practically — well, all the sources, I
would say, are from the recei])ts of games which we play out of
town.
The Chairman. 1 wisli \ou wouhi explain to us how those games
are handled and how the fund is accounted for.
Mr. Warner. Why, I arrange the games witli the athletic directors
or managers of the various college teams, and agreements are made
as to how the receipts shall be divided. Sometimes we })lay for a
guaranty for a certaui ajuoimt and sometimes with a guaranty
and an option of a jjcrcentage of the gate receipts. Sometunes we
have just a j)ercentage of the gate receipts and no option.
The Chairman. You have been in charge of that work how long?
Mr. Warner. I have been in charge of it since 1899, with excep-
tion of 1904, 1905, 1906.
The Chairman. Have you played many games that you did not
come out on ? That you lost money on ?
Mr. Warner. The only games that we lose on are the home games.
We do not charge our students or employees any admission, and of
late years we have ^ad : U our home competitions free to the general
public out there.
1224 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. And always when you go away from home you
make something?
Mr. Warner. I would not say always. The football team does,
but the other teams — football is the money-making game and it
finances our whole athletics. Of course, lacrosse and track athletics
are losing sports. It is all outgo. Quite often we make trips at a
little loss-
Senator Lane. How many football games do you play in a season,
on an average?
Mr, Warner. About 11 or 12.
The Chairman. You go pretty well all over the country?
Mr. Warner. Of late years we have had no western trips. While
we play quite a number of games away from home, they are with few
exceptions, games where we either leave tlie morning of the game
and get home the same niglit, or we leave in the afternoon of Friday
and always get back either Saturday night or Sunday. So, with
the exception of one or two trips on tlie schedule, the boys lose very
little time on that account.
Senator Lane. I want to ask 3-0)1 there, do you make a search
through the Indian reservations and comb tlie Indians over for good
material ?
Mr. Warner. No, sir; that iias been cJiarged against us.
Senator Lane. You never heard of it?
Mr. Warner. Newspaper reporters follow us who are interested
in other colleges, and the}^ insinuate that we try to induce fellows to
come here. As a inatter of fact, I have never made a trip m the
West to look for athletic material, and t]iere lias been nothing of that
kind done.
The Chairman. How is your material chosen?
;Mr. Warner. We take the boj^s that come here and try them out.
Every boy is entitled to come out and try and see what he can do.
Our boys have liad practically no experience in lacrosse — our sports
are now lacrosse, track athletics, and football: they are all practically
developed right there.
The Chairman. I suppose when you get a good man you hold him
as long as you can on the team ?
Mr. Warner. I think the records will show that the average
length of service for the last five years would be less than two years.
TJie Chairman. I am not talking about tlie average; I am talking
about the exceptional cases.
Mr. Warner. There were exceptional cases in years gone by,
before we adopted eligibility rules, where boys played (m the team
five or six years, but they were not lield there for that purpose.
Boys used to stay at the scliool longer tlian they do now. Tliey came
there, and were induced to stay there until they graduated. Since
1907 we have had no boj^ on the team over four years.
The Chairman. Do you personally seh^ct th(^ players, oi- how are
they selected ?
. Mr. Warner. Yes; I have the final saj' as to who shall play.
The Chairman. How many boys during the last year were in the
various football squads, for instance, and trying to get on the team?
Mr. Warner. I think there were about 60 tliis last year.
The Chairman. Coming ])ack to the cpiestion of the finances of the
association, how do you settle witli the rej)i'esentatives of the other
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1225
teams when a game is played? What is tlie process? Do they pay
you by check ?
Mr. Warner. As a rule, they ck). As a rule, in those collecre games,
of course, you rely — that is, they are college players and college men
you are dealing with. You rely upon their honesty and squareness,
and we never have a man on the gate. Sometimes they settle right
after the game if they have the receipts figured out and all that, but
as a rule they send a statement of the number of seats sold, at what
price, and total receipts, and our share, and send us a check.
The Chairman. Payable to whom ?
Mr. Warner. To the athletic association; sometimes payable to
me as athletic director.
The Chairman. What do you do with it '.
Mr. Warner. If it is payable to me I indoise it over to the treasurei^
of the athletic association.
The Chairman. And it is deposited with him '.
Mr. Warner. He deposits it.
The Chairman. Do you know how much you took in last j^ear?
Mr. Warner. Well, just an estimate. 1 have not figured it up,
but I would say our total receipts were around $25,000.
The CiiAiRNMAN. Did you have a good season, a successful season.
]\Ii-. Warner. AVe had a good season as far as the record of the
team was concerned, but I think the receipts were a little smaller than
the year before. We had bad weather some of the days.
The Chairman. AMio controls the disbursement of that fund, ]\[r.
Warner?
Mr. Warner. Why, the executive committee of the athletic
association.
The Chairman. Who are the}^?
Mr. Warner. The superintendent, and Mr. Miller, and mj^seK — the
officers of the association. Mr. Friedman is not an officer, but he is
an honorary member of the association.
The Chairman. Do you three determine what accoonts should bo
paid, what bills should be paid ?
^Ir. Warner. Yes.
The ChairjMan. Do you have meetings to do that or is it purely
informal.
Mr. Warner. "Well, we are all right there in the office, and if there
is anything special comes up — of course, there are little bills — we
all know they have to be paid.
The Chairman. Of course, your salai'v comes out t)f that fund, I
take it ?
Mr. Warner. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Are there any other employees i)aid out of that
fund?
Mr. Warner. The treasurer of the association — part of his salary
comes out of that, I think. He gets a very small salary.
The Chairman. He gets $.3,") a month '^
Mr. Warner. Yes.
Senator Lane. Practically, you are the executiA-e ? They depend
upon you, don't they?
Mr. Warner. No; of c(mrse, we consult together. If there are
things of the ordinary routine, of course, there is no discussicni ; but
any important matter, why, we discuss it. Now, as an instance of
1226 CARLISLE IJSIDIAJS! SCHOOL.
ihat, wc had just a short while ago a letter from a former player of
the team who was in very hard luck and lost all his money and had
a bad leg and he wanted to go to the hospital, and he thought that
the athletic association might help him out. Well, we discussed that
as to whether an act of charity it would be wise to do that. Theje are
things like that that come up.
The Chairman. There is paid to Mrs. Foster, a teacher, out of the
athletic fund, $15 a month, and to Mr. R.L.Mann, another teacher,
$15 a month for Y. M. C. A. work.
Mr. Warxer. We pay Mrs. Foster. Mr. Mann did have charge of
that work until he was relieved from it on account of Ms evil influence
with the boys.
The Chairman. What do you mean by that, ''his evil influence" ?
Mr. Warner. Mr. Friedman found that he was a bad influence
with the boys, coming in late at nights and talking about the girls
he had been out with, and giving the boys cigarettes, and things
Mke that.
The Chairman. Did he drink witli them?
Mr. Warner. I do not know that he did.
The Chairman. How did he ever come to be chosen for that kind
of work ? Who chose him ?
Mr. Warner. I do not know who chose him, but he was rather a
new man there and was not very well known, and he was given that
position.
Senator Lane. Did he have a bad influence in the way you speak of ?
Mr. Warner. Oh, yes.
Senator Lane. You know that he did i
Mr. Warner. Yes; Mr. Friedman wrote him a letter and called his
attention to all these things, and moved him out of the athletic
quarters, where he had been staying, where he had been with the boys,
and he never answered the letter and practically admitted by not
replying that it was all so. Some of the boys told Mr. Friedman
abt)ut it.
The Chairman. What is the object of paying nominal salaries to all
the ministers in the town for services there ?
Mr. Warner. Well, I do not know that I could — they have serv-
ices in town, you see, and the boys and girls that belong in their
churches, they could go in to t(.)wn to their churches ; they could go in
to Sunday school, but it has always been a custom, even in Gen.
Pratt's time and Maj. Mercer's time. It lias always been the custom
to have afternoon services at the school, and the preachers have
always been paid. When Gen. Pratt was here I think they were
paid out of a charity fund which he had.
The Chairman. He had a man he called "chaplain," didn't he?
Mr. Warner. He liad one man part of the time, and others at
other times. Mr. Diffendeifer was — he had him here ([uite a while.
He was here under Air. Friedman.
The Chairman. What I mean is, he did not have all of them at
once. What I am trying to find out is. What is vour idea of havini;
them all?
Mr. Warner. Oh, instead of ha\iug one denomination 1 thiidv it
Was thought tliat if you would have the preachers from tlie difl'ercuit
denominations alteriiute it would be a variation in the service to the
students, and give all the denominations the same recognition.
I
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1227
■
Tho Chairman. 1 find in looking over that account a good many
items for funds paid to Mr. Hugh Miller and Mr. J. L. Martin for serv-
ices as correspondents.
Mr. Warner. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How is that handhul, and what services do tliey
perform ?
Mr. Warner. They do a lot of extra work in seu(hno out photo-
graphs and stories about the football teams duriiig the football season.
As most of our games are played on the percentage basis, of course,
all the publicity we can get in the newspapei-s, especially in the cities
where we are going to play, swells the receii)ts; and for the extra
work that they do along that line, and for photographs and extra
work, they have been allowed — that was allowed by ^Ir. Mercer be-
fore Mr. Friedman came here — I think they wei-e j)aid more at tluit
time than they have been in late years.
The Chairman. I also find a number of items showiiig payments
of various amounts to cli])ping bureaus. Wlnit is the idea about
that ?
Mr. Warner. Why, it is customary witli all teams of importance
to have clij)pings. For instance, during the football season I have a
certain bureau send me all the clippings pertaining to the Carlisle
Indian School football team, and it gives me an idea what is being
said, and if anything is being said that is detrinn^utal and untrue, it
gives me a chance to deny it. xVnd it gives me a chance to learn
what other teams an^ doing in preparing for our ganu\s. Those clip-
pings are always turned over to the boys for them to read.
The Chairman. I see that an attorney, Mr. John M. Ray, receives
about $100 per annum for auditing the books of the athletic asso-
ciation. What service does he perform?
Mr. Warner. Well, we thought that to assure ourselves that the
athletic books were kept in a businesslike and straightforward
manner, it would be well to have an outside man of good standing in
the community, recognized as an honest man, etc., to audit tliose
accounts and see that they were all right.
The Chairman. Do you know what lie does when lu' audits the
accounts — what he actually does i Do you know how he does his
work ?
Mr. Warner. He checks up, just the same as Mr. Linnen did
when he went over the accounts.
Senator Lane. Does he give you a re))ort i
Mr. Warner. He just signs — at the end of each month he savs,
''Audited by John M'. Ray.''
The Chairman. He does not uiidertake to go behind the recei})ts
in the ofhce then; to ascertain whether or not tlie amoiuit reported
in the books there is the amount actually ])aid by anotlier association
to your association ?
Mr. Warner. Well, of course, a statement conu's in l)y the official
in charge of the other team, and he lias that. He scuds tlial with
tht; checks.
The Chairman. I sec also an item for J. W. Wetze!, who is another
attorney, and Wetzel & Hanibleton. for $50 and Si 00. What
service^ do they ])erform ?
Mr. Warner. Now, as to that, 1 do not exactly remember, but I
think there was a case — some girl got into trouble: something in
1
\
1228 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
connection with that; sonic legal services that they did, I think
Well, I think Mr. Friedman had them look over mv contract.
The Chairman. You do not know what it was for definitel}' ?
Mr. Warner. Xo; I could not explain that.
The Chairman. What salaries are paid the members of the team '?
Any ?
Mr. Warner. Xo, sir.
The Chairman. Wiult do they receive that other pujnls do not get ?
Mr. Warner. Well, at the close of the season the boys are given a
$25 suit of clothes and a $25 overcoat; that is, the first team. And
the first team also get a souvenir of some kind.
Senator Lane. Is that charged in?
Mr. Warner. It is on the books: yes, su\ That custom was
introduced by Gen. Pi-att when I first went there, and it was reestab-
lished nn({er Mr. Friedman.
Tlie Chairman. That is in a(hlition to theu" regular athletic cloth-
ing, which, of course, you Ijuy anti pay for?
Mr. Warner. Yes.
Tlie Chairman. Now, you pay the transportation of the football
team and the necessary attendants when they go out to play games
out of the athletic funds, oi course ?
Mr. Warner. Yes, su'.
The Chairman. 1 see a good many items of expenses for the super-
intendent in various places, v.'hich I assume were — many of tliem, at
least — while lie was attending the games.
Mr. Warner. Some of them were, I should think; yes, su'.
The Chairman. How were those audited ? By whom ?
Mr. Warner. How were they audited?
The Chairman. Yes: how do you know the amounts are correct?
Mr. Warner. He ])uts in a statement of what the expenses con-
sisted of.
The Chairman. He does not iile an itemized statement?
Mr. Warner. AVell, I think they are pretty well itemized. I know
they are much more so than his jiredecessors.
"I'lie Chairman. Who would know whether the}' were itemized
or not ?
]\[r. Warner. You can tell by lookmg
The Chairiman. The man tliat keej)S the accounts says they are ^
not itemized. Who approves them ? ?
Mr. Warner. Well, 1 sign the checks for it. ^<.
TJie CiiAimfAN. Now, I find a number of items there for transpor-
tation books furnished to ]\[r. Friechnan at the expense of the atliletic
association. How does the nthl(>tic association come to be furnishing ^
those inileage bo(d<:s ? ""
My. Warner. Some of thcjii are for those trips.
The Chairman. He is supposed to use those only in the trips in
the interest of athletics ?
Mr. Warner. I think he uses them for other purposes — students
being sent away when they have no money, or something of that
kind.
The Chairman. Has your attention evei' been called to tlie fact
that on a number of occasions when he used those books, paid for
by the athletic association, tliat he also charged in liis account ren-
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1220
dered to the Government, as superintendent of the selioi)!, the same
items ?
Mr. Warner. No; I never Jieard of that.
Senator Lane. Before you leave that, the athletic association pays
his traveling expenses hy issuing him thes(> mileage books, and they
are not to be used for any other purpose except in the interest of the
Athletic association, are they? Legitimately, I mean? You inti-
mated he used them for other purposes.
Mr. Warner. Only occasionally, for a charity case, or something
like that. I know he has used athletic association mileage to bring
a- party of Indians from Washington to commencement, and things
like that that would not be legitimate Government expense, but he
would do it from the athletic association funds.
Senator Lane. Has he been authorized to do that bv the asso-
ciation ?
Mr. Warner. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know the amount of money tliat is spent
annually for liis expenses and tlie expenses of himself and friends and
family out of the athletic funds?
Mr. Warner. No; I never figured it up. I think it is very small;
very small, compared to what his predecessors used to use.
The Chairman. Have you exammed tlie books to see whether that
is true?
Mr. Warner. Oh, yes, sir.
The Chairman. How does it compare with the amounts his prede-
cessors used ?
Ml-. Warner. It is much less. I could not quote the figures, you
know. Mr. Friedman, I think, has used the funds of the association
for liimself very little. I think occasionally he has taken his wife
on trips.
Senator Lane. Out of this fund ?
Mr. Warner. With tlie athletic association; yes.
Senator Lane. Did the others do it to a still greater extent ?
Mr. Warner. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Then, it is customary ?
Mr. Warner. It has been; yes, sir.
Senator Lane. How do you account for that method of usine- the
funds? ^
Mr. Warner. I suppose they justified it on the ground that they
thought it was perfectly right for the superintendent occasionally to
accompany the team away to play a game.
Senator Lane. And pay his family's expenses because somebody
else did it to a greater extent ?
Mr. Warner. How they figured it, I do not know.
Senator Lane. But I understood you to be accounting for it that
Way here. I understood you to say he had done that less often than
his predecessors.
Mr. Warner. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Were they in the habit of using association funds
for private use ?
Mr. Warner. They have been, on occasions like that; yes, sir.
Senator Lane. According to that, then, this fund is a land of fund
at large that may be used for any pi]r])ose.
The Chairman. Wlio do you think that fund reallv belongs to?
1230 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. Warner. It belongs to the athletic association,
llie Chair]max. Yes, to the athletic association. Whom do you
mean by that?
Mr. Warner. I mean the boys who compose the team
The Chairman. Just to make the point clear, when Mr. Friedman
goes to Washington on Government expense on Government business
and chars:es the Government his railroad fare, he ought not to use the
mileage books that your fund pays for on that same identical trip,
ought lie (
Mr. Warner. No; I do not think he has.
The Chairman. Have j^ou investigated the records in the office of
the auditor of the Pennsylvania Railroad and the Cumberland Valley
Railroad Co. '(
Mr. Warner. No; 1 have not.
The Chairman. Now, I suppose you would not have any memory
as to different expense items incurred by Mr. Friedman on trips to
Washington and charged to the athletic fund ?
Mr. Warner. 1 would not; no, sir.
The Chairman. Of course, you have no connection with the disci-
pline of the school?
Mr. Warner. No more than that I try to keep discipline when I am
in charge of the bovs when T have them away on trips and out on the
athletic held.
The Chairman. Were you present on an occasion sometime ago
when some boys were whipped in the lock-up down there ?
Mr. Warner. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you participate in that?
Mr. W^arner. 1 was there simply to see that the boy — that the man
that was doing the whipping
The Chairman. Who was that?
Mr. Warner. Mr. Dickey; he was acting disciphnarian at that
time.
The Chairman. What was he punishing that boy for?
Mr. Warner. It was on a Saturday, and some of the boys, I think,
had got hold of some liquor, and they wore raising a lot of "cain" down
there aiul had openly defied them: and one of the boys — I think two
of the boys — almost tlirew him off the upper balcony. They pretended
they were going to. I do not know whether they really intended to.
The Chairman. Were you there by the instruction or \\dth the
knowledge of the sujjorintendent?
Mr. Warner. No, sir.
The Chairman. How did you come to go there?
Mr. Warner. Well, the boys had acted so and defied the disciplina-
rian to such an extent that they sent several of us
The Chairman. Were 3"<)u ])resent when that infraction of disci-
])hne occurred?
Mr. Warner. No, sir.
The Chairm.vn. Who was present when tliat punishment was
inflicted ?
Mr. Warner. Tlwre was Mr. Dietz, and Mr. Rudy, and Mr.
Auffer, and myself.
The Chairman. Did the su|)erintendent know anything about it?
Mr. Warner. No, sir.
The Chair.man. Wliy was he not informed?
CAi;i,ISLG [XDIAK SCHOOL. 1281
Mr. Warner. I think he disa})i)rovod of corporal puiiishmont.
The Chairman. You do not moiiii to say that you participated in a
punishment that you knew the superintendent would disapprove of
at the time ?
Mr. Warner. Well, we knew that the department was opposed to
corj^oral punishment, but we thought it was a case where tliere was
nothing else that would do as good; and it did have a wholesome effect
upon those boys.
The Chairman. How many of them wore whipped?
Mr. Warner. I think there were three or four.
The Chairman. Were they sober A\hen they were whipped ?
Mr. Warner. Yes, sir.
Tlie Chairman. How were they whipped ?
Mr. Warner. With a small strai).
The Chairman. Did they make a iight ?
Mr. Warner. No.
The Chairman. How many lashes were given them ?
Mr. Warner. Oh, I could not say.
The Chairman. Have they been good boys ever since?
Mr. Warner. They liave; yes, sir. [ think they have all been
pretty good.
The Chairman. Now, going back to that fund just a moment, I see
that in January, 1908 — were you there then ?
Mr. Warner. Yes, sir.
The Chairman (continuing). A camera costing $140.60 was bought
for Hugh Miller, the newspaj^er correspondent.
Mr. Warner. That was January, 1908?
The Chairman. Yes, sir; that is the information I have a minute
from the records. Do you remember how they came to buy that
expensive camera ?
Mr. Warner. My impression was that that vras bought in 1907
instead of 1908 no, that was right. That was during Maj. Mercer's
administration. Mr. Miller had i^een to a lot of expense to get photo-
graphs, and espcciall}" action photographs. There w^as no camera
in town that would take rapid-action pictures, and the papers were
all the time calling for that kind of pictures, and he spoke to myself
and Maj. Mercer ahout it and prevailed upon us to buy him a camera
that would do that v. ork.
The Chairman. I notice, too, that on November 21, 1908, a bill
of $\o was paid to the Postal Telegraph Co., alleged to he for election
returns.
Mr. Wakner. What year?
The Chairman. That was in 1908. I suppose that v/as the presi-
dential electi('n?
Mr. Warner. That was the ])residential election. I think they
had the returns out there for the students and employees.
Tlie Chairman. What is the present financial condition of the
athletic association, Mr. Warner? Is it prosperous ?
Mr. Waijnkr. Why. we just about- I think our receipts perhaps
a little more than pay our running expenses. 1 do not just kn(^w
what our balance would show now.
The Chairman. How are those athletic funds handled at Cornell?
You were there a while, I believe?
1232 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Afr. Waiinkr. Yes. sir; tlu'v Ikia'c an incorpcrulcMl juhlctic
nssociation.
The Ckaiumax. Is it separate from the school?
Mr. Warner. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And paid out for a.ny pur])()se that the directors
wish ?
Mr. Warner. I think that up there it is all confined strictly to
athletics. I will tell you, this athletic fund, the surplus that is not
needed for athletic purposes has lieen used hy the association for
whatever ])urpose the}' thought would best ])enefit the school, and in
doino- charitable work of different kinds. So far as we have been
able in our judgment to do it, we have spent the money as best we
coidd to the interests of the school.
The Chairman. Do you have much troulde with your boys on
account of drinking?
Mr. Warner. The football boys? Very little.
The Chairman'. I notice yon arc paying out of the athletic fund
small items of .12 to the chief of police here. Mr. Boyer. for the arrest
of each Indian caught down town without a pass, and also notice an
item of $10 paid to Bentley. a detective, imd $10 to a sheriff, for the
arrest of somebody.
Mr. Warner. That has been one way of preventing the boys from
going to town -getting the policemen to pick up these boys who went
down town without permission, and to reimburse them for their work
in doing that and in cooperating with the school, that has been done.
There is no other fund, as I understand it -no Government fund -
where that wcnild be a legitimate expense, and so that is taken out of
the athletic association the same as other things are in that line.
The Chairman. Did I ask you if there was much drinking in the
school ?
Mr, Warner. Yes, if there was among the athh^tic boys.
The Chairman. Is it general amono; the male pupils ?
Mr. Warner. There is more now tiian I think there used to be.
The Chairman. What do you think that is due to ?
Ml'. Warner. It is due to the fact that the boys are not so easy to
manage as they used to be. They are a Uttle more up-to-date boys,
they come there with a little more education. They are a little
harder to keep track of. And it is also due to the fact that the
discipHnarian does not take any extreme measui'cs, or does not try
to keep the boys from getting to town.
The Chairman. Wliat do you think is the remedy for that ? It
must be evident, of course, that whatever the cause may be and
however difficult it may be to prevent it, it is very demoralizmg to
any school, especially where ghls are going to the same school.
Mr. Warner. There is altogether too much latitude given the
boys in comuig to town. That is, they arc not punished, and there
is no effort made to keep them from coming to town by the discip-
linarian, so far as I can learn. If j'ou are gouig to allow boys to
run in town without permission they are goino- to get uito more or
less mischief. Another thhig, I think, would be to drop the white
boys, the boys that can not be distuiguished from whites. Those
are the boys that get the li(iuor. The people down town would not
sell an Indian liquor any more than they would ])()ison, but a white
I
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1283
boy that has almost no Indian blood in him can go down there and
buy it.
The Chairman. Are there many white boys of that class out there ?
Mr. Warner. There are c^uite a few.
Senator Lane. These men dovni town that sell whisky, do they
sell to boys even if they are white ?
Mr. Warner. Oh, no. But some of these boys would be over 21.
If they did not know that they were Indians it would be perfectly
right to sell them Kquor. but if one of these boys goes in a place and
they fuid that they are from the school they Avill kick them out. These
people in towni — the white boys usually put one over on them. Some
new students comes here, and they may get him to work it for them
for a while, or he may get some friend down town to go and get it for
him. I think if the disciplinarian would be more strict about the
bovs going to town it would help in the discipline out there a whole
lot.
Senator Lane. Did you ever suggest it to him ?
^Ir. Warner. Yes, I have suggested it, and I have reported it when
I saw boys m town in the evening without uniform. I have reported
such boys, and others of the employees have. We found that the
boys were not even called up about it, and we got tired in making
reports.
Senator Lane. The present disciplinarian, I understand, has done
everytliing he could to prevent it. Has Mr. Friedman the power to
compel him to ?
Mr. Warner. He can issue instructions.
Senator Lane. Does not the disciplinarian obey those ?
Mr. Warner. Yes: but I suppose he says he is doing all he can.
Senator Lane. If he finds out he is not
Mr. Warner. Well, I suppose he could wTite to Wasliington and
ask that he be relieved, but that would not mean that he would be
relieved.
Senator Lane. But he could pr<»sent a case that would almost
compel them to dismiss him ?
Mj\ Warner. Well, if he had the cooperation of the Indian Office,
as I think the superintendent of a school ought to have to get rid
of incompetent and disloyal employees, that would be done, but it has
not been the case.
Senator Lane. Do you mean to say that if the supermtendent of
the mstitution notified the authorities at Washington — that is, the
Commissioner of Indian Affairs — that there was a disciplinarian who
would not, after he had l)een warned of the facts, prevent the boys
from going down town in such a way that they could get liquor, the
Commissioner of Indian Affairs Avould fail to support the superin-
tendent in his efforts in that direction ?
Mr. Warner. I can only judge by what has been done.
Senator Lane. They have failed heretofore ?
Mr. Warner. Yes, sir; in bome cases they have failed to act on it
for months.
Senator Lane. Then, the logical deduction from that statement is
that if tlie boys drink here and come down town without proper
disciphne from the man employed for that purpose, the fault lies
35601— PT 11—14 18
1234 CARLISLE INDIAiST SCHOOL.
with tlio Commissioner of Indian Affairs ? 'J^horo can not bo any
other exphxnation.
Mr. Warner. I think to a certain extent.
The Chairman. Is there anything else, Senator ?
Mr. Warner. I would like to be heard about the general situation.
The Chairman. Very well.
Mr. Warner. Practically all you" hare asked me about is the
athletics. I have been athletic director there, \vTith the exception of
3 years, under aU the different superintendents that the school has
had, and I feel that I know something about the condition of affairs
under all the administrations, and as long as Mi". Friedman's admin-
istration is bemg questioned I would not feel that I had done my
duty unless I had called attention to the work he has done there.
He has built up the school, added to the plant, as you may see, to a
large extent; he has improved sanitary conditions and the comfort
of the students to a great extent
The Chairman. Now, just say what he has done in detail, ^^^thout
(Expressing an opinion.
Mr. Warner. The students' dining room used to be a dingy old
room, poorly lighted — that whole building was an old building. The
rooms upstairs, where they had the sewing room, etc. — that has all
been remodeled and improved and made a decent place for students
to eat — metal ceilings put in, and floors and tlimgs lighted up so they
don't have to go up there in the dark. That is simply one.
Of course, wnen Mr. Friedman came there he found that there had
accumulated m the athletic association quite a large fund. He had
certain ideas as to how the grounds and the school could be improved,
but he did not have the appropriation from the Government to do the
work with. We talked it over — the executive committee of the
athletic association — and this surplus fund of the atliletic association
was used to a large extent to build several build iiigs there which !Mr.
Friedman thought we ncn^ded.
The Chairman. Tell us what buildings were constructt'd from that
fund.
Mr. Warner, "\^^lat is called now the athletic quarters was an old
hospital. They built a new hospital up on the other end of the
grounds. That old building was an old. insanitary, tumble-down
affair, which v.ould probably have been torn down as useless for any
purpose whatever. As the dormitory facilities for the boys were
crowded during the winter, and as that building was favorably
situated to the athletic field, we thought it would be a good idea to
remodel that building into a place for the bo3's to room: that they
would have better facilities, etc. That building was remodeled and
reconstructed, practically built over, at a cost of ten, tAvelve, or
thirteen thousand dollars.
Then the printing office, which used to be over in one of the shops-
Mr. Friedman wanted the shop room for the other sho]is, and that
building where the printing office is now was built from athletic funds,
and that addition to the school building in which the business depart-
ment is was also built out of tli<^ athletic money.
Then the heating system has been changed: all those things.
The girls' and boys' dormitori(>s have been better lighted. The
school building has been repaii-ed and put in good shape, and l)etter
lights put in for the students.
OABUSLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1235
Represontntivc Carter. ^^^lJ^t is 3'oiir salarv. Mi-. Warner?
Mr. Warner. S4,000.
Roprcsontativc Carter. Do you got your cxjxMises when you are
on trips with tlie boys ?
Mr. Warner. My (-xpenscs are paid; yes, su'.
ReproscMitative Carter. Do you get any other emohiments at all
from tlie athletic funds?
Mr. AVarner. Xo, sir: except a ])lace to live.
Representative Carter. That does not eonie from the atliletic
funds ?
Mr. Warner. That was built by the athletic association.
Senator Lane. Are you suppli'Mlvnth forage?
Mr. W^arner. No, sir.
Repr-'sentative Carter. You do not get anything further than
your ssiLirv and the things vou have just mentioned from the athletic
ifund?
Mr. Warner. Xo, sir: not a thing.
Representative Carter. You undei-stand, of course, that there
art- no accusations implied in any questions we are asking ? It is the
only way we liave t(^ get at the facts. Tf I understand correctly, the
secretary of the association with whom you play a game, when it is
away from liome, files an account, scmding you your part and a check
to correspond ?
Mr. Warner. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. That is all therc^ is to that ?
Mr. Warner. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. There are no other payments at all made
to any])ody except that ?
Mr. Warner. Xo.
Representative Carter. And that is the way the games are settled,
Ls it, by all the colleges ?
Mr. W^vRNER. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. Is it customary amctng all the colleges to
have publicity men like you have here ?
Mr. Warner. In think nearly all of them. I know the UniA'^ersity
of Pennsylvania has a press representative, they call him. He has a
salary, and he devotes all his tune to that work.
Representative Carter. How long have you been at Carlisle, the
last time ?
Ml-. Warner. Since 1907.
Representative Carter. W'hen did you come here the first time ?
Mr. Warner. I came in 1899.
Representative Carter. How long did you stay?
Mr. Warner. From 1899 to the spring of 1904, and then I came
back in January, 1907.
Representative Carter. Have you stated anything at all about
the feeling that seems to exist between ]Mr. Freidman and some of the
students ?
Mr. Warner. Xo; I have not touched upon that.
Representative Carter. Tell us what you tliink about it.
Mr. Warner. I want to say that everything has run along smoothly
at the school. Mr. Friedman did not go on a vacation last summer.
He stayed here and worked last summer. Last fall we all remarked
about how smoothly everytliing was going, and liow there seemed to
1236 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
be a good feeling' in the student body, and everything was going on
line until Mr. Friedman's trouble witli Mr. Whitwell.
Representative Charter. When was that ^
Mr. Warner. That was along just before the holidays, I think.
Representative Carter. What was the trouble ?
Mr. Warner. Mr. Friedman found, or thought, that the academic
department had been running down and that Mr. "Wliitwell had not
been doing his work as well as he should; so Mr. Friedman thought
he would take a personal interest in building up the academic depart-
ment. Mr. Wliitwell had — for instance, he had abandoned the study
hour, which is the hour from 7 to 8 at night, when all the students
must go to their rooms to study. They had been doing that until
Mr. Whitwell abandoned that and instituted what he called a "quiet
hour," when the boys and girls had to stay in their rooms and do
their studying there. Mr. Friedman saw that that was a farce; they
did not do their studying, and it just gave them the whole evening
to themselves, and it was a farce. That was one of the things that
Mr. Friedman reinstated. Of course, that was against Mr. Whitwell's
recommendation, and there were several other instances of where
Mr. Friedman issued orders in connection with the school and tried
to get Mr. V7hitwell to cooperate with him in strengthening that
department, and Mr. W^hitwell evidently resented Mr. Friedman's
orders along that line and sort of took things into his own hands over
there and trie d to straighten things out, and the result was finally,
as I understand it, that they had a wordy battle in Mr. Friedman's
office, in which Mr. Whitwell called Mr. Friedman some dirty names,
and one thing and another. Mr. Friedman preferred charges against
Mr. Whitwell for his insubordination, and those charges were not
acted upon for nearly a ni' ntli — ^threo weeks, at least, as I remember
it -and when they were acted upon, Mr. Whitwell, I think, was told
that if it were not for his long years of service he would be summarily
dismissed, but in view of the fact that he has been in the service so
long, and his previoi!s record, they would transfer him to another
school, and he would be transferred as soon as another place could
be found.
Rejiresentative Caktek. Jle was n^priinaiKh'd jind notificMl he
wouhl be transferred?
Mr. Warner. Yes, sir.
Rei>resentative Carter. Tlien in taking th<' case up with the
Indian Office at Washington th(^re was acc(nuj)lished then a r(>])riniand
and the notification that he wouhl be transferred ?
Mr. Warner. Yes, sir; the letters are on iile and can ])c looketl up.
In s]3ite of the fact that he was t(>ld that, hv has been alh)wed by the
Indian Office to remain there; and in my estimate and in IMr. Fried-
man's, and all who are loyal to Mr. Friedman, it is ^Ir. WhitweJl who
has been instrumental in stirring up all this insurrection.
Representative (\vrter. You blame Mr. Whitwell for it^
Mr. Warner. Mr. Wliitwi'll and thrc(> ov fom- other cini)h)yee- who
have a s])ite against Mr. P^riechntwi.
Reju'csentative Carter. Wlio arc the three or four others •;
Mr. Warner. Well, Miss Sweeney and Miss Canlield. and Mr.
Mann, I think, are the ones.
The Chairman. Wry well. Mr. Warnei-; thai will he all.
CARLISLE 1NDL\X SCHOOL. 1237
Mr. Warner. 1 would like to add to that, if 1 may — as I under-
stand tlic discipline has been one of the things that has been criticized.
I would like to say that I think the investigation will show that the
discipline at the small boys' quarters has been good, and the disci-
pline at the girls' (piarters under Miss Ridenour has been good, and
the only com])laints there have Ix'en that she has Ijeen too strict.
My opinion is that the discipline at the large boys' cjuarters is respon-
sible for the whole situation out there. Those boys have disciplinari-
ans out there, and instead of running the large boys' quarters and
telling the boys what they should do and what they should not do,
they have allowed the boys to run them and tell them what they shall
do and not do; and they have had such good success at that that they
have got so they tiiink they can tell the other employees and even the
superintendent what he can do. It seems to me if the large boys are
going to run that school u]) there and run the disci])linarian, it is time
a change was made. 1 know Mr. Friediuan has done everything
in his power to stiffen up the disciplinarian at the large boys' (quarters
and get him to stiffen up things down there. In my estimation, if
the students and these disgruntled employees are allowed to feel that
they can oust the superintendent or any other employee, nobody is
going to b(r able to come theri^ and get any results unless he allows
the students to*run things and do as they please.
Representative Stephens. "\Miat remed}^ would you suggest?
Mr Warner. I would suggest that the superintendent be given
EQ-Cver by the Indiaii Office at Washington to remove the people that
ave stirred up all this dissension. It is necessary to dismiss some of
the ring leaders among the students. This thing has all been worked
up by Whitwell and his crowd and a few of the students.
Tlie Chairman. Is that a matter of evidence, or just your opinion?
^Ir Warner. Well, there are facts to substantiate it.
The Chairman. Well, tell us the facts.
Mr. Warner. I do not know that I could state facts of my own
knowledge. I have heard
Senator Lane. I would hke to ask if things will be better until the
superintendent can make make them better, with the cooperation of
the Department of the Interior?
Mr. Warner. No, sir.
Senator Lane. You say that will recjuire a new disciplinarian and
the cooperation of the Interior Department, but it seems as though
you also tell me that the present superintendent is unable to secure
that cooperation. Will this go on indefinitely ?
Air. Warner. Unless the superintendent has the cooperation of the
Indian Office at Washington.
Senator Lane. He has not secured that yet, although he has tried,
you tell me ?
All". Warner. That is as I imderstand it.
Senator Lane. Then it looks to me Uke it is a hopeless case.
Mr. Warner. Unless the Indian Office can
Representative Carter. Are these the only people who are in col-
lusion with Mr. Whitwell — the three you mean ?
Mr. Warner. Oh, no; there are others. I also v.ant to state that
this committee, as I understand it — ^the committee of boys and girls
that have been to see this committee — are supposed to represent the
boys and girls. I do not know whether you understand it or not, but
1238 CARLISLE INDLiN SCHOOL.
those committees were appointed by a faction among the student
body. They do not represent the whole student body. They were
elected by those who were against Mr. Friedman and do not represent
but one side of the question among the student body.
Representative Carter. You know when they were elected and
about the meeting they had?
Mr. Warner. Since Mr. Linnen came here.
Representative Carter. About the meeting they had?
Mr. Warner. Yes. sir; several of the boys told me that at that
meeting they were asked to leave the room.
Represetative Carter. Who were they, Mr. Warner?
Ml'. Warner. Joe Guyon and William Garlow, two of the best boys
w;e have here. I don't know of any others.
TESTIMONY OF AUGUST KENSLER.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
Representative Stephens. How long have you been connected with
this school ?
Mr. Kensler. For one year and seven montks.
Representative Stephens. "WTiat is your position here ?
Mr, Kensler. Quartermaster.
Representative Stephens. What are your duties here ?
Mr. Kensler. To receive and issue supplies and to lay out the work
in the shops.
Representative Stephens. What shops do you have control of ?
Mr. Kensler. The industrial sho])s - the car])enter shop, the black-
smith sho]), and all those.
Representative Stephens. You fiuuish tliem the su])plies thnt are
needed in those sliops ?
Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir; and direct what work shall be done there.
Representative Stephens. Do yovi know why it was thoy dropped
the agricultural work ?
Mr. Kensler. No; that was before my time.
Representative Stephens. That is, al)out three yeai-s ?
Mr. Kensler. Yes.
Representative* Stephens. Do you know why they dropped the
telegraphy department ?
Mr. Kensler. No; I am not acquainted with that.
Representative Stephens. Do you know why they drt)pped the
photography department ?
Mr. Kensler. No; that is all on the other side, uuder the academic
department.
Representative Stephens. Do you know why they dropped the
department of Indian sirts and sciences?
Mr. Kensler. I Ix^heve they have that yet. I tiiouglit Mrs. Dietz
was still working at that. You see, they w ork over there in the school
building under charge (-f the principal, so, of coui-se, I ch^n't know
what is going on over there.
Representative Stephens. Do you know what the feeling is between
the different teachei-s and the supermtendent of the school?
Mr. Kensler. I could honestly say I don't know anything al)out
that nny more tlnui I hear whis])ered about.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1239
lleprestnitativc Stephens. Do you know what the feeling is l)et\veeii
the body of the students and the superintendent?
Mr. Kenslek. It has been very bad of hite.
Representative Siepiiens. Can you exphun to us why that has
been ?
Mr. Kenslek. I might ])e al)le t(). We unfortunately have no dis-
ciplinarian. The hist one we had was very lax. He was a very fine
gentleman, but he had not the ability to control the ]ni])ils. ()r. in
other words, he was ratiier too tired to do it. He could not control
them at all. Another ]iart of it is, for a long time before this man
Friedman came here Mr. Mercer was here, and lie left the bo}s and
girls have dances every week, and they came in together and it had
bad results. The morals became very bad — that is the plain speak-
ing of it. Then he cut that out. about a year and a half ago, since
Miss Ridenour came here. They st(i))i)ed the dances. That set them
wild right thoi and there.
Representative Stephens. Who did they bhiine for tliat?
Mr. Kenslek. Mr. Friedman.
Representative Stephens. Wluit is the state of feeling at tiie pres-
ent time between Mi-. Friedman and the 1)ody of students?
Mr. Kenslek. The feiding is not very good as far as I hear.
Representative Stephens. Do they jeer or make fun of him?
Mr. Kenslek. Not in my presence, but I have heard they have
done so, but not of my own knowledge.
Re])resentative Stephens. Do you know anything about the moral
condition of the school ?
Mr. Kensler. Well, it is about as good as it has always been.
Representative Stephens. Do you know anything of any trouble
among the female students, any of them being bad and sent home in
a delicate condition, etc. ?
Mr. Kensler. I have heard they have been.
Representative Stephens. About how many have you heard ?
Mr. Kensler. Of late, not over three, I think, but there might
have been more. My duties are outside of the quarters, and I have
nothing to do with the boys and girls except when they come down.
I have four boys detailed in my place.
Representative Stephens. Have you heard any complaint about
their not getting enough to eat ?
Mr. Kensler. The only complaint I have heard is that just as
soon as the football is over there is a howd that there is not enough to
eat; but it is only in the bread that I have heard it.
Representative Stephens. Is there any reason why they should
not have bread enough i
Ml'. Kensler. They can not go over the allowance, you know.
Representative Stephens. Is it not a fact that we give them a
lump-sum appropriation ? Do you think they are not able to supply
the students ?
Mr. Kensler. Oh, we are able, if tlie superintendent has the
authority.
Representative Stephens. Hasn't he the authority?
Mr. Kensler. No; the Indian Office issues a regular provision
table, so much allowed for each 100 rations.
Representative Stephens. How much is allowed, then, by the
Indian Office ?
1249 CARLISLE INDL-^lN SCHOOL.
Mr. Kensler. They have reduced it again. They have reduced
tlie flour to 90 f)ounds for 100 rations, and the beef 85 pounds to 100.
We had a special allowance for a long time while Gen. Pratt was
there and up to a short time ago, but one day they sent in the new
school regulations, about four months ago, and said that that would
take the place of all former regulations in regard to food. But
actually we have not got the bread. The baker should bake as
much bread as they can eat. To-day he came to me again and
figured up — he used more than tlie allowance last month, and I
showed limi if I put the amount down which is necessary per 100,
then we overdraw very nearly 300 pounds of flour in a month. That
flour is not alone for bread, but they use a lot in the kitchen for mak-
inp up pies and dumplings, etc.
ilepresentative Stephens. That is taken away fx'om the body of
students 'I
Mr. Kensler. They eat it in another form.
Representative Stephens. You say you have not funds sufficient
to furnish bread enough for the students ?
Senator Lane. That is an arbitrary arrangement of the depart-
ment?
Mr. Kensler. Yes.
Representative Stephens. Is there not a supplemental fund that
these boys can be given enough bread out of?
Mr. Kensler. We have to have authority.
Representati\re Stephens. You do not have to have authority to
use those football funds ?
Mr. Kensler. I never saw that ( r heard anything of it.
Representative Stephens. Yon do not think that could be used
for buying bread when it can be used for every other purpose?
Mr. Kensler. I don-'t know what is going on about the football
iund. I never saw it, I know. It does ncit come under the Govern-
ment, I understand.
Representative Carter. You sav tliev allow 90 pounds of flour to
1 00 rations ?
Mr. Kensler. Yes.
Representative Carter. How long is a ration supposed to last?
Mr. Kensler. The ration is a day's provision.
Representative Carter. They are allowed 90 pounds of flour a day
for over 100 students ?
Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. That is the maximum?
Mr. Kensler. The maximum of the Indian Office; yes.
Representative Carter. Who makes that allowance?
Mr. Kensler. I guess Mr. Lane.
■ Representative Carter. What do 3^011 think aiout the athletic
association and the way it is handled?
Mr. Kensler. Well, my belief is this, that as long as it is a Govern-
ment instituti(!n it should be handl(>d by the Goveriunent. If I had
the doing of it of course, it is only my opinion — it ought to ])e han-
dled just the same as the Arni}^ and Navy teams.
Representative Carter. They play on the grounds, and not out-
side. That does away with all that mone}^ business. There are
plenty of teams that will come here and play our Ijoys. The Army
does not go outside, and neither does the Navy. The only game
they do not play on their own grounds is the game they play together.
OARUSLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1241
TESTIMONY OF CLAUDE M. STAUFFER.
The witness was duly swoni by the cliiiirmjin.
The CiiAiKMAX. What (flicinl pesition do you hold in the Indian
school, and how long have you l)eeu employed there?
Mr. Stauffer. I have been eiuployed there since 1PG4; about H)
years. I have been the bandmaster and musical director there ever
since I have been there.
The Chairman. How many ■i)u])ils are in the band?
Mr. Stauffer. About 40; in the neighl^orhocid ( f 45 or 48.
The CuAiRMAX. What do you tencli; what instruments ?
Mr. Stauffer. I instruct tliem in a general way on all the instru-
ments, but my principal instruments, that I play myself, arc the
stringed instruments, tne piano and organ, and I nave a general knowl-
edge of the brass instruments and reed instruments of the band,
sufficient to ])e al)le to instruct them.
The Chairman. Do you issue diplomas in your department?
Mr. Stauffer. No ; that has never been the policy.
The Chairman. How long does it take to complete the work which
you do in the course which you give there?
Mr. Stauffer. Well, the course we give in music has never been
an outlined course. There never had been one before I came there,
and never one handed me bj- anybody else, I have these pupils for
a certain length of time — for the time they are there, with the excep-
tion of the summer months. During the summer time they go out.
Tiie ChxVIRMAN. Have any of them completed the course to your
satisfaction ?
Mr. Stauffer. We have a number of students, yes, that have
become very proficient.
The Chairman. Do they teach now ?
Mr. Stauffer. Yes; I have a number of bo3^s in the Indian Service
at the present time.
The Chairman, Were you ever connected with the Department
of Agriculture ?
Mr. Stauffer. No; I never was.
The Chairman. Did you ever have the position of instructor in
agriculture ?
Mr, Stauffer, I never did. Now, I looked that matter up. Mr,
Linnen asked me that question, and I looked that up through some
of our files out there, and came across a note written to me by Mr.
Friedman saying that I should arrange to take some classes in agri-
culture, I went to Mr. Wliitwell, and consulted with him about the
matter, and he objected to any more classes being introduced in that
department. He said that at present their courses were broken up
sufficiently with music, and the business, and drawing. I reported
the matter to Mr. Friedman, and it never was carried out.
The Chairman, Are you skilled in scientific agriculture ?
Mr, Stauffer, No, sir.
The Chairman, Do you know anything about agriculture ?
Mr, Stauffer, Only what I have taken in the schools that I have
been in, I am a graduate of a normal school, and I took a course
there in physics, and took physics in college.
The Chairman, I am talking about agriculture.
X242 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. Stauffeh. S(j far as agriculturo is concornod, I am not an
ug'ricnlturist.
The Chaikman. Why did the superintendent instruct you to take
classes in agriculture if you had no sj^ecial training?
Mr. Stauffer. The position of agricultural teacher had been abol-
ished, and he thought they ought to have some practical knowledge.
The Chairman. Why was that done?
Mr. Stauffer. I neyer went into that with him.
The Chairman. Do you know a Miss Julia Hardin ?
Mr. Stauffer. Yes; 'she is a ])upil of mine. She studied piano
under me, and also in the mandolin club.
The Chairman. Did you administer corporal punishment to her?
Mr. Stauffer. I did.
The Chairman. Under whose instruction?
Mr. Stauffer. Mr. Friedman's instruction.
The Chairman. State the circumstances.
Mr. Stauffer. May I read them?
The Chairman. No. You remember what you did?
Mr. Stauffer. I remember what I did. but if I could submit this
to you, it is a clear and concise statement of the case, and covers it
to the best of my ability.
The Chairman. Is this the statement which you made to Inspector
[jinnon? .
Mr. Stauffer. That is the statement that 1 gave him.
The Chairman. You made one statement to him, and the follow-
ing day decHned to sign it ? , , , i. , j
Mr. Stauffer. I asked Mr. Linnen whether that was to be regarded
as my final testimony. He said that for the present it was. I said
I preferred not to sign it until I had rendered my entire testimon;^,
and I requested that I be allowed to submit a fuller statement m
justice to myself regarding the Julia Hardin affair. That has been
about a year ago— not quite a year ago. I never expected to be
called upon about this case and I had not refreshed my memory ot
the case at all, and in thinking it over I realized that I had not cov-
ered the ground sufficiently. « .
The Chairman. Did you make any statements in the athdavit you
gave Mr. Linnen and did not sign that were not true ?
Mr. Stauffer. No, sir; I did not.
The Chairman. So far as the statements in that go, they are correct <
Mr Stauffer. So far as they go they are correct; yes.
The Chairman. They did not sufficiently cover the case ?
Mr. Stauffer. They did not sufficiently cover the case, in my
estimation. ^ , , • re i -x i
The Chairman. Now, after you had made this affidavit and were
asked to sign it by Mr. Linnen you made some offensive statements
Mr Stauffer.- I did, and 1 have a transcription of that that I have
written down that I am wifiing to submit and swear to as to what
occurred, to the best of my knowledge, in there^
The Chairman. Have you the statc^ment with you ^
Mr Stauffer. Yes; I have the statement, and I want to say, Mr.
Robinson, that I could not see why Mr. Linnen's attitude should be
offensive to me at all. I was not shown
CARLISLE 1NDL\N SCHOOL. 1243
The Chairman. Ciin you oxpluiu why your uttitutlc shoultl have
been offensive to him i You knew he represented the Gov^ernment
of the United States
Mr. Stauffer. He did not tell me that he representeil the Gov-
ernment .
The Chairman. You did not know that he was a representative of
the Department of the Interior, of the Commissioner of Indian
Affairs, and of the joint eommission of Congress ?
Mr. Stauffer. I had no knowknlge whatever.
The Chairman. But did you think he was ?
Mr. Stauffer. I knew he was there for the purpose of investigat-
ing this matter.
The Chairman. Whom did you think he was representing ?
Mr. Stauffer. I thought he was representing the Indian Office;
that he was sent here from the Indian Office to make a fair investi-
gation of the schook And in my estimation, Mr. Robinson, I don't
see how a man who was a fellow Mason could treat me
The Chairman. The Masonic business has nothing to do with that.
Did you state to Mr. Linnen, "You can not bluff" us the way you have
been doing things around here?"
Mr. Stauffer. I said, sir — I mentioned that he could not bluff me
into signing an affidavit.
The Chairman. What did he say in reply to that ?
Mr. Stauffer. He said, ''1 told you I was through with you."
The Chairman. He told you you were excused?
Mr. Stauffer. He told me he was through ^^•ith me.
The Chairman. \Miat did you say in rej)ly?
Mr. Stauffer. I said, 'Very well."
The Chairman. Didn't you say to hhu. "You can not bhift' any-
body around here ?"
Mr. Stauffer. 1 made that remark.
The Chairman. He told you you were excused. ^Tliy didn't
you go on about your business ?
Mr. Stauffer, Mr. Robinson, I admit I was hasty in what I said.
The Chairman. You also made the statement, ''You are no gen-
tleman ? "'
Mr. Stauffer. Yes; 1 did.
The Chairman. And that was after he told 3^ou you would not bo
required to sign the affidavit?
Mr. Stauffer. Yes.
The Chairman. And as you passed out the door you made the
statement again ?
Mr. Stauffer. Yes; I admit that.
The Chairman. Now, let us get down to the facts about that JuUa
Hardin case. You say you had instructions from Supt. Friedman to
administer corporal punishment to that girl ?
Mr. Stauffer. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Wliat was his language and what diil he teU you
to do ?
Mr, Stauffer. He just simply said, "Go ahead. "
The Chairman. Did you ask him for permission to do it (
Mr. Stauffer. J came back to the office and reported that I had
been over there, and there was nothing that could be done with the girl
1244 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
at all, in niv estimation, and I thought she ought to be made to
mind, even if it were necessary to give her a s}>anking.
Senator Lane. How old is she?
Mr. Stauffer. I judge she is about 17 or 18 years old.
Senator Lane. Were you really going to spank a 17-year-old girl?
Mr. Stauffer. Now, I feel — and I have conclusive evidence there
in my statement that I have sworn to as the whole truth, that that
girl admitted afterwards — that was the best thing that ever hap-
pened to her.
The C'HAIRMan. I^et me go ahead. You said you made a state-
ment of the facts to Supt. Friedman, and he told you to go ahead and
punish her. Did you tell him you were going to use a board?
Mr. Stauffer. 1 did not use a board, Mr. Robinson.
The Chairman. Wliat did j^ou use ?
Mr. Stal'FFER. A little stick that Miss Ridenour handed me, a
little piece of kindling wood about a foot long, two inches wdde, and
a quarter of an inch thick.
Senator Lane. Did you strike a 17-year-old girl with a stick of
that kind ?
Mr. Staltfer. Yes. sir; T did. I did not think I did anything
that was cruel to the girl. The girl
The Chairman. How many times did you strike her?
Mr. Staufp'er. About eight or ten times.
The Chairman. Did you throw her down?
Mr. Stauffer. No; 1 did not. I slapped her
The Chairman. Struck a girl
Mr. Stauffer. I slapped her across the mouth when she became
insolent to me.
The Chairman. Did Superintendent Friedman give you authority
to slap the girl ?
Mr. Stauffer. He did not give me any authority except what I
told you. He said to me
The Chairman. When you slapped her, what else did you do?
What did you do after you slapped her ?
Mr. Staltffer. She covered ner face with her hands and got down
on her knees, smd as she did I pushed her over so that she was on her
hands and knees — with my hand.
The (yHAiRMAN. When did you hit her with the board?
Mr. Stauffer. After that Mrs. La Flesche came in, and Mrs. La
Flesche had the chock she had refused to sign in her ofiice previous
to this, which was for her transportation out to her country home.
Mrs. La Flesche came in, and I told her the circumstances, and Miss
Ridenour also did, and she still was defiant and still insisted she
would not go. And I said to Mrs. La Flesche that I did not see any-
thing that we could do. She said, "The only trouble is, she has not
had enough." 1 said, "I am willing to give her some more if you
think so," and Miss Ridenour brought this stick and said, "Here,
use this."
The Chairman. How much experience have you had as a school-
teacher ?
Mr. Stauffer, I am a graduate of the Bloomsberg State Normal
School, holding a diploma as teacher in the State of Pennsylvania.
The Chairman. Have you ever \v]n})pe(l a young lady in that man-
ner before or since 'f
J
C'AKl.ISf.E INDIAN' SCHOOL. 1245
Mr. Stauffer. No, sii-.
The Chairman. Did it occur to you that that was a manly and
courageous thing to do ?
Mr. Stauffer. I have regretted ever sinc(^ that it was necossaiy
for me to do it, but I did it as my duty prompted me to.
The Chairman. You were moved solely by a sense of duty?
Mr. Stauffer. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You mean you slapped a young lady in the face
from a sense of duty, and expect anybody to believe it'^
Mr. Stauffer. Well, that is my version of it. Senator Robinson.
The Chairman. Well, I have been a school-teacher nwself, and
am a man of some temperament myself. 1 can sympathize with a
man that has a temper, but 1 never would make oath that I slapped
a young lady 17 years, and then spanked her with a board, or what-
ever it was, purely from a sense oi duty.
I want you to describe that stick, or board, uv whatever it was,
that you used.
Mr. Stauffer. I have described it in there. It was about a foot
long, 2 inches wide, and a quarter of an inch thick.
The Chairman. Didn't you say m the ailidavit you gave Mr.
Linnen it was at least 3 inches wide and .3 feet long <
Mr. Stauffer. No; I did not say that.
The Chairman. Did you ever whip a 17-vear-old bov with your
fist?
Mr. Stauffer. No, sir.
The Chairman. You would not do that, would you?
Mr. Stauffer. No; and I regret that I did this other.
The Chairman. You would take your vengeance out with your
fists on young ladies. You have seen boys around that school drunk,
heard them insult the superintendent and call him a "Jew"
Mr. Stauffer. No, sir; never in my presence.
The Chairman. And you never struck any of the boys ?
Mr. Stauffer. I never heard them do that in my presence.
The Chairman. You have handed me a typewritten statement
vfhich you say represents your view of the matter after you had
carefully studied it over. Did you confer \vith anybody when you
prepared this statement ?
Mr. Stauffer. No, sir; not about this statement.
The Chairman. Whom did you confer with before you prepared
it or while you were preparing it ?
Mr, Stauffer. I did not confer with anybody about the state-
ment.
The Chairman. Have you exhibited it to anyone since you pre-
pared it? .
Mr. Stauffer. No, sir.
The Chairman. You make the statement here:
By this time Mr. Wlxitwell had arrived on the scene and was told of what liad taken
Elace. lie pulled the girl up from the floor and told her she would have to make up
er mind to go, and that she had not had half enough, and threatened to give her
more himself. After considerable persuasion on the part (jf all she finally consented
to sign the check and agreed to go to the couiitry if we would let her wait until the
morning train. As it was then too late to make the evening train, it was agreed she
could wait, but Mr. WTiitwell ordered her i)ut in tlie detention room over night so she
could not be persuaded by the otlier girls to change her mind. lie then accompanied
Miss Ridenour to the room where she was to be kept .
1246 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Is that statement correct ?
Mr. Stauffer. Yes, sir; to the best of my knowledge, it is.
The Chairman. Now, Mr. Whitwell swears as follows:
I found the girl sitting on the floor sobbing and crying. Mr. Stauffer was standing
near, very much excited. So was Miss Ridenour. I had learned on the way over,
from Mrs. La Flesche, something of the trouble. I walked up to JuUa and said some-
thing like this: "Julia, you know I wouldn't advise you to do anytliing against your
best interests if I knew it. Now you have got yourself into this trouble and it is up
to you to get yourself out of it. I couldn't tell you what is right or wrong, any better
than what you yourself now know it, and I am not going to waste time talking to you,
but I advise you to do as you are told, whatever that is."
I turned to the matron and asked what they wanted her to do. The matron said
she would have to go to the lockup. I said, '". Julia, will you go to the lockup?"
She said, "I will go for you, Mr. Whitwell." I knew the girl meant what she said.
I turned to the matron and said she was ready to go, but the matron did not seem to
realize it. 1 said again that she was ready to go and told Julia to rise and go with her.
She went, and that ended my connection with the case.
That evening Mr. Stauffer came to our house and explaiiied his connection with
the case. I told him that he would likely be blamed for using corporal punishment
on the girl. He said that he had first gone to Mr. Friedman, and that while Mr. Fried-
man didn't give him direct permission, he took it for granted that he was willing
that the girl should be punished. He also added that the girl was ready to give in
when I came over. I said so far as I was concerned I felt I had not done anything
worth mentioning.
Now, is the statement in that affidavit true that Mr. Friedman
did not give you direct jiermission, but you took it for granted that
he was willing ?
Mr. Stauffer. The remark Mr. Friedman made — when I said the
only thing I saw was to give her a spankmg, he said, ''Go ahead."
The Chairman. That was direct instructions to do it, was it not?
^Ii-. Stauffer. That is what I understood.
The Chairman. Did you tell Mr. Whitwell that Mr. Friedman had
not given you direct permission ?
Mr. Stauffer. I do not think I ever told him that.
The Chairman. Did you go over to his house that night and explain
your connection with the whippmg of the girl ?
Mr. Stauffer. I do not think that I did.
The Chairman. Do you remember going over there that night ?
Ml". Stauffer. I do not remember going over there that daj'" at all.
The Chairman. Do you remember makmg any explanation ?
Mr. Stauffer. No; I think the explanation was made right there
iin the room at the tune.
The Chairman. You do not remember about it?
Mr. STAt^FrpiR. No.
TESTIMONY OF DR. MOSES FRIEDMAN, SUPERINTENDENT.
by the chairman.
superintendent of the Carlisle Indian
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. You are the superintendent o
School ?
Dr. Friedman. I am.
The Chairman. How long have you served in that capacity,
Doctor ?
Dr. P'riedman. Since April 1, 1908.
The Chairman. Now, tlu^rc has bcH'ii presented to this joint com-
mission complaints as to the management and control of the institu-
tion. Amonir tliem are these: That there is a general state of dis-
J
I
CABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 124'
order in the school, a strain(^d relationship between yourself and the
pupils and between yourself and niany of the employees; that you
have not manifested a fri(^ndly syjupat hy for the pupils in vour admin-
istration of the affairs of the seliool ; that the food supply furnished
is inadequate: that in the accounts which you have rendered the
Government the same have been falsified in this, that you were fur-
nished mileage books at the (^xpense of the athletic association and
used the same in travel on the Cumberland Valley Railroad and the
Pennsylvania Raih-oad to and from Washington; that for the same
trips and on the same travel you submitted an item for railroad fare
in your accounts rendered the Government; that vou have caused
or permitted the number of pupils actually attendmg the school to
be misrepresented for the pm-pose of reducing the average cost per
pupil; and perhaps some otlier matters, to which your attention may
be called.
We will be very glad to have any statement or testimony that you
may care to offer m connection with your administration there espe-
cially touching these matters. If you wish, we would be glad for
3^ou to go ahead and make a statement.
Dr. Friedjiax. I made a few notes with reference to it to guide
me, but I presumed that probalily you woTild want to ask me some
questions first.
The Chairman. I think 1 will do that. What is the total number
of pupils in the school ?
Dr. Friedman. At present '
The Chairman. Yes, sir.
Dr. Friedman. I could not give you the exact figures. There are
nrobably — I think there is an actual attendance of 816, but there is a
larger enrollment of students' names, students who have been there
this year.
The Chairman. Wliat are the general conditions prevailing in
the school, with reference to order or disorder? Are they satis-
factory to you ?
Dr. Friedman. The}^ are not satisfactory to me, sir; no.
The Chairman. In what respect ?
Dr. Friedman. The discipline among the boys is not satisfactory,
and among a great many of the students in the various quarters there
has been a condition of unrest created by employees who are disloyal
and who are incompetent, who have been repeatedly reported to the
Indian Office, and wdio have been kept there regardless of my reports.
The Chairman. Now, when did this condition as to laNity in disci-
pline arise, Dr. Friedman ? When did you first observe it '(
Dr. Friedman. Now, the ])resent condition goes back to about
Christmas time, possibly a little before, possibly a month l)efore.
There was a certain amount of unrest about the time some difficulty
arose between myseK and the principal teacher. I shall narrate that,
difficulty if you want to hear it. It is a ver}'' important matter.
The Chairman. Very well.
Dr. Friedman. When I first came to Carlisle nearly six years ago
I was told to build up the school, which was in a rather nm-down con-
dition, in the mechanical plant, in the r'ourse of study, in tlie indus-
tries, and in the general tone of the disciphne. But T realized it could
not be done at one time, and 1 took it up department by department.
I took up the various industries, the farms, the health, t he discipline,
I
1248 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. ^
the morality, and I left the school work go until a later period, be-
cause the Carlisle School had always had a rather good reputation
for its academic work. Durin'jj the last yeai- I became convinced of
laxities in the administration of the school building. The failure of
incentive on the part of the head there in that building to inspire the
teachers and the general laxity of conditions in the building were
afiFe^ting the rest of the school. I thought this should be remedied,
and I took that matter up.
I was there all the summer, with the possible exception of a day or
two. I have for several years been suggesting to Mr. Whitwell that
they install, an evening study hour, whicli he hud abolished with the
approval of Supt. Mercer the year he came there, and which is a fun-
damental need in any institution. Instead of that he had an even-
ing study hour in the dormitory rooms, and it was not a study hour, i
The boys lay around on the beds and told stories, and it created dis- i
order rather tlian improved their intellect. Every time I asked him
about the study hour he indicated that he was unfavorable to it and i
that the Indian OfTice was unfavorable to it. But tlie thing got to I
such a pass that I finally wrote the office myself to find out whether
the offi'-e was opposed to an evening study hour. I told them the
general conditions. They wrote back tind said they were not, that
they had issued no instructions that it be discontinued, and that, as a
matter of fact, they were favorable to it. I thereupon instituted it. I
realized it was a large step, because it meant taking up the evenings
of a great many teachers in the academic building. They had been
free in the evenings. I realized that Mr. Whitwell was opposed to it.
I worked out a plan during the summer, and started out at the be-
ginning of the year. I took up other matters, such as the general
monthl}^ entertainment, which was badly conducted, and improved
them by having every department represented. I took up the Mon-
day chapel exercises and arranged that so that it would be of some
use to the students by giving them a Bible reading and giving them a
good talk on some practical subject. A great many of the minor
matters in the building were taken up.
Mr. Whitwell chafed at that. He had previously spent a great
deal of time away from the building. He is really an assistant super-
intendent, but he is really of no assistance whatever. He went to
the school in the morning, and went back to his house at 4 o'clock,
and nobody could find him after that. Under the new conditions he
chafed, and finally came into my office and insulted me.
The Chairman. What did he do and say ?
Dr. Friedman. If you insist upon the words, he called me a dirty
skunk, and he said a number of other things along the same fine. I
am convinced from his manner that he came in there to do it. Now,
I am not an active man, understand, nor a prize fighter, and any
blackguard can come into my office and say anything he pleases. I
took the matter up with the office, and reported the matter, both by
letter and by telephone message to the commissioner, and I insisted
that this man be suspended at once.
Senator Lane. How long ago was this, please,?
Dr. Friedman. About four months ago. It was more than four
months. I called up the commissioner on the telephone, and he was
not in favor of suspending anyone. He said it was a very serious
thing. I sent a full report in^ and gave Mr. Whitwell a chance to
CARLISLE IXDLA.N SCHOOL, 1249
answer the cluirges, as I had to do in every case of that kind. The
same process has to be gone through wfth any employee on the
grounds. If conditions warrant their removal, it is up to me to prefer
charges. They have a chance to answer them and prefer counter-
charges; and as a general thing it means an investigation and dis-
ruption of the school, and in this matter it was even more serious than
anytliing of that kind, because this man went around bragging about
what he had done. It was current information around the grounds.
I called the Indian Office up a few dnys later, and I did not get any
satisfaction. After waiting for several weeks, I went down to Wash-
ington and there was nothing done, and after a wait of about two
months after this thing occurred I finally went down there deter-
mined that some action should be taken. ""l saw Commissioner Sells,
and he said, "Why, I have not had a chance to go over this man's
statement at all. I promise you to reply in three days."
Well, in three days Mr. Whitwell got a letter telling him that he
would be transferred, that he had been insubordinate and insulting,
land that he would have been dismissed except for length of service.
There was nothing mentioned about the character of his ser^dce in his
I letter. I beheve that was the 25th of November. It was just like
threatening a child with a licking and holding it oft' until some time
in the future. This man was angry, and he knew that the worst that
could happen to him was a transfer, and he had already been active,
and he became even more active.
' The Chairman. What did he do ?
! Dr. Friedman. He inspired the students with agitation. He called
[the students repeatedly into his office over there near his rooms.
!He got a matron by the name of Miss Sweeney, who w^as over there as
' a teacher, and who had been refused leave at a certain time because
she was acting contrar}- to the regulations and not in accordance with
I previous instructions, and she united with him in the matter. And he
got another teacher over there in the school building, a young fellow
by the name of Mann, who I found to be a disrupting element on the
campus, with him in the same work. And by degrees he got two or
■three others.
Those things spread. Mr. Whitwell was on the campus there;
he had insulted his superintendent, and he was openly declaring that
the superintendent would leave and that he would win. One of their
general remarks was that they would "see the tail feathers of the
superintendent going out of the place," and I was helpless. I have
reported these things to the office continually, sir.
j Now, they have gotten these students in there — tliis thing com-
[menced then. There never has been a condition of this kind on
'those grounds. I have been there six years this March, and this is
'rather a late day for a condition of that kind to be suddenly brought
'about by natural conditions. If I had been unpopular \\-ith the
i students it would have been manifested the first year. If there had
jbeen such trouble or laxity of discipline it would have been manifested
jthe first year, because one of the complaints against the former ad-
j ministration was laxity of discipfine. But here was a condition that
jWas fomented by employees on the campus, one of whom is assist-
ant superintendent.
35601— PT 11—14 19
1250 CAKlJSi.E INDIAN SCllOOJ..
Now, coupled -with that, I think, is the inefficiency of the disci-
plinarian— Mr. McKcan; Mr. McKean is a good young fellow, he
has a hearty laugh, he likes the out-of-doors. But he is phlegmatic
rather, and his tendency is to let the boys alone. He won't correct
the boys. If something comes up that the students want to do or
do not want to do, and they come to him, why, he says, "I can not do
anything about that; those are the superintendent's orders." I just
recently had a case of that, just the other day — a thing that has
never occurred there before. Four boys came u]) into my office.
They were detailed from the masonry department to fix some pipes,
and they com])lained to Mr. ^McKean that there were some boys in
the guardhouse vrho ought to have been detailed for that.
''Weil," he says, "I can not do anything for you; I have orders
from somebody else. You go down and see the quartermaster."
They went down to the cfuartermaster, and the quartermaster toki
them to go to work. He notified ilr. McKean that that work was
to be done, and the students were to perform it. They again com-
plained to him, and he said, ''Go up and see Mr. Friedman about it."
and they came to me. I said, "You boys are here to do v."hat is
ex})ected of you. You are here to go to school and attend to your
work both. The Government does not conduct this school so the
students can run it, and when you are given a certain task to do the
thing to do is to go to work and do it." And I sent Mr. McKean
word that the shifting of responsibility in that way must cease.
Senator Lane. Did yon send him word or tell him orally?
Dr. Friedman. I wrote out a little note and turned it over to the
stenographer to typewrite, in order not to allow tlie studeiits to hear
me doing it.
Now, gentlemen, I have here a mass of 100 orders that I have sent
to Mr. McKean — smoking, going to town, lack of cleanliness in the
building. I have talked to him personally about these things re-
peatedly. He corrects them for a day, and then they go ahead. I
have reported them to the office.
I think he recognizes that he can not do the work, and he recently
asked for a superintendency, or position as super\dsor of farming;
and in submitting the indorsement I told the office that possibly as
assistant su])ervisor of farming he might render some service. My
experience has been that the average man who can not fill a place
usually wants a position as supervisor or something of that nature.
The Chairman. Now, you have an assistant disciplinarian there —
Mr. Denny. Wlio assigns their work ? Is that fixed by statute ?
Dr. Friedman. Well, they have charge of the buildings under the
regulations of the school. Mr. Denny is a very good disciplinarian.
Mr. Denny's difficulty was a tendency toward harshness wdth his
boys. I had to re})rimand him several times about that.
The Chairman. What do you mean by "harshness?"
Dr. Friedman. Well, he is a big, husky Indian, and he used his
hands on the bo3^s.
The Chairman. Did he knock them down occasionally ?
Dr. Friedman. When I ffi-st came to Carlisle I knew the conditions
of corporal punishment there before. I knew that the boys and girls
were whipjied right along, and they were put in dungeons there, in
an old guardhouse that was a disgrace. It had wooden floors in it,
and the sanitjition was a^\^'ul. I had that thing fixed u]) and had
i
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1251
comout floors put in, but evoii at that the conditions were dreadful.
The}" were put in there for two or three months at a time on bread
and water. These things have come to me from employees who
were there. A superintendent liad one of the girls take hov clothing
off and put a nightgown on and got her out there in the middle of the
court in front of the girl's buihhng to whip her, and have the girls
lined up in front of the building there.
The Chairman. To witness it?
Dr. Friedman. The thing is general information among the people
who were there. It was told me by Mr. Ridenour, who had been
told by a girl who was there at the time.
The Chairmax. What superintendent was that?
Di-. Friedman. Do you want his name? Pratt. One of their
favoiite metliods of ]:)unishment was to put a big sign on the front
and on the back of a boy if h(^ had committed a theft oi- told a false-
hood: "I am a thief" or "I am a liar" and mai-ch him up and down
that campus.
The Chairman. To luuniliatc^ and degrade him?
Dr. Friedman. Yes.
The Chairman. What is your theory of punishment proper to bo
enforced in a school of that kind, taking into consideration the ex-
perience you have had tlieie and your knowledge of the })upils?
Dr. Friedman. When I came there I had had experience in other
schools. Before I entered the Indian Service I had taught many
white students in Cincinnati. I had classes in the University of
Cincinnati settlement, and I was at Phoenix, in the Philippines, and
at Haskell. I am opposed to corporal punishment; and one of the
iirst things I did when I came to Carlisle was, in speaking to all the
members of the faculty, to tell them that I did not want any corporal
punishinent there; that if it became necessary for a student to be
whipped, the thing to do was for the employee to come to me and first
obtain my permission; that it was to be done in a humane way, and
that I wanted them to understand that as a general proposition I was
opposed to that; that in a large institution where there was 85 em-
ployees coming from various walks in life, some one is going to abuse
that authority, some one is going to extremes, and it simply could not
])e permitted.
I diti not let that be known among the students, because I have
been a teacher and 1 have been among boys, and I knew the bad
effect anything of that kind would have, but I allowed it to be under-
stood among the employees.
Representative Carter. I want to ask j^ou if you kiiev/ of any cases
of corporal punishment that have been reported to this commission,
some of them verified by teachers who are loyal to you.
Dr. Friedman. Well, I know of some of this difficulty with Mr.
Denny, and I wrote him a letter which I have here. I think you will
be interested in it. 1 wrote the letter al)out a year ago.
The Chairman. Do you know of the Julia Hardin case, and of Mr.
vStauffer's punishment of her?
Dr. Friedman. Yes, Senator.
The Chairman. Did he get your permission to do that?
Dr. Friedman. He did not exactly get my permission to do it, but
I in(Hcated that he should handle that thing in the way that he found
best jifter he trot over there.
1252 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. What representation did ho make ?
Dr. Friedman. He said something to me — there was a great deal
of difficulty about it. The girl was stubborn, and I was trying to
find !Mr. Whitwell, who was the proper man to handle a matter of that
kind. He was busy at the office at the time and the matron said she
could not do a thing and Mr. Stauffer happened around there and I
sent him over. Mrs. La Flesche was there too. She is the outing
manager, and it was a matter concerning the outing. The girl had
given a great deal of trouble.
The Chairman. You do not know this of your own loiowledge?
Dr. Friedman. She is a very nice girl, and you would not ordinarily
think it that way. Her record, so far as disclosed by the teachers, is
almost perfect.
The Chairman. Now, you do not really know of your own personal
knowledge ?
Dr. Friedman. I was not there, Senator.
The Chairman. What representations did Mr. Stauffer make to
you when he came and told you about that case and you tacitly
agreed that he should whip her?
Dr. Friedman. It is a long time ago, but as I recall it, nothing
could be done.
The Chairman. What did ho have to do with it?
Dr. Friedman. He volunteered to do it, Senator. He was an
employee in the school, and hei'O was a girl that the matron could not
do anything with.
The Chairman. You have had a great many cases where the boys
have defied you and openly violated your instructions. Mr. Stauffer
does not go around whipping the boys for that, does he ?
Dr. Friedman. I do not ask anyone to help me out, Senator.
The Chairman. That is the very point I am making. I am trying
to find out where ho got on.
Dr. Friedman. Why, Senator, ho was over there trying to help
the matron who was in difficulty, and there were several other em-
ployees there with him.
The Chairman. You approved of this course ?
Dr. Friedman. It was a rather unusual case.
The Chairman. But you approve of this course?
Dr. Friedman. After he explained the circumstances to me. and
knowing it was done in a proper way, it seem.ed to me at the time to
be a proper punishment, especially in view of the fact of the employees
that were there as eye witnesses.
The Chairman. You knew that ho slapped her first?
Dr. Friedman. I do not recall.
The Chairman. You thought that was proper, for a man to slap a
young lady ?
Dr. Friedman. No; I do not think it is proper.
The Chairman. You knew that ho slapped her ?
Dr. Friedman. No.
The Chairman. Well, he admits that he did. Do you think that
is proper?
j)r. P^riedman. Well, I am not favorable to slapping students.
The Chairman. Well, you might give me a frank answer.
Dr. Friedman. I do not tliink thoro is any occasion whore it is
]> roper to slap.
CARLISLE IXDLAX SCHOOL. 1253
The Chairman. He says that ho s})ankecl her with his bare hand,
and then took a stick, a j^iece of kiudlmg, which wtis handed him by
Miss Eidenour, and whi])])ed her; and she was still stubborn and
somebody remarked that slie had not had enough yet, and he whip})ed
her some more. Xow, do you think a man who ])ractices corporal
punishment on a young lady 18 years old, whose record was good
Dr. Friedman. Her record was not good.
The Chairman. You just said it was.
Dr. Friedman. I said she was a nice kind of girl. The matron can
give you that information.
The Chairman. She said that her record was good.
Dr. Friedman. She signed up for the outing party, and signed u])
again, and refused to go.
The Chairman. Aside from that — that was an act of insubordina-
tion. "VMiat I am trying to find out is whether you ap])rovetl of the
action of Mr. Stauffer and the manner in which he })unished that girl,
and whether it was done with your knowtedge in advance ?
Dr. Friedman. I am frank to say — —
The Chairman. I am frank to sa}^ to you that I do not believe you
or he either would have treated a man that way, or an Indian boy of
that age. You would not have had the courage to do it, to slap an
18-year-old Indian boy in the face.
Dr. Friedman. I have told you my general attitude, that I disap-
prove
The Chairman. But in this particular case.
Dr. Friedman. In that particular case it was done by a loyal em-
ployee, doing what he considered to be in the best interests of discip-
line, and I shall share the responsibility.
The Chairman. You may have to take it all.
Dr. Friedman. I shall share any responsibility connected with it.
The man's motives must be considered; the man's record must be
considered; the man's influence among the boys and girls must be
considered, and the effect of that ])articular case must be considered,
and the fact that there was a superintendent teacher there, the head
matron there, and the manager of the outing system.
Senator Lane. Some of them came in afterwards.
Dr. Friedman. They were all there, Senator. Two employees
tried to manage that girl — the matron and the manager of the outing
system.
The Chairman. You only know what you have been told, of course ?
Dr. Friedman. I do not know; I was not present. I simply know
what came to me from those emplo^^ees. Mrs. La Flesche came to
me and told me she did not think that girl had got enough.
The Chairman. AMiy dichi't you have Mr. Stauffer go and whi])
her again ?
Dr. Friedman. I Iuxxq indicated my general feeling with refen^nce
to that. I will tell you another case now. There is a case that hap-
I)ened just a few months ago where the farmer here took a stick and
broke a boy's arm in view of a little altercation he had had with him.
And I reported tiie matter to the Indian Office and recommended that
the man be dismissed, and the man is there now.
Representative Carter. What is the farmer's name ?
Dr. Friedman. Mr. Grav.
1254 CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Representative Carter. Is he the head farmer or assistant farmer ?
Dr. Friedman. He is head of one of the farms.
I am opposed to corporal punishment, Senator. I do not want
you gentlemen to get the wrong idea of Stauffer. He is not a ruffian
or a man of that type.
Senator Lane. But is he the man to slap a girl?
Dr. Friedman. I am opposed to any kind of punishment meted out
to girls. It may have been that he just simply lost his temper. I
was not there.
Senator Lane. It must have been something like that.
Dr. Friedman. I went through the boys' building here a month or
so ago. You say the boys have been doing these things to me. I
do not think there is any danger of an Indian boy getting into a thing
of that kind. I went through the boys' building about 10 o'clock —
late at night. I went through because I had continually complained
to the disciplinarian about conditions in that building, and they were
not remedied, and I wanted to see for myself just what they were. I
found some of the boys sleeping two in a befl. There was not many
of them had their night gowns on. They were all furnished with
night gowns. They had the ventilation windows closed, iind a num-
ber of them were sleeping in other rooms, where they had no right
to be.
When I got up to the third story some boy downstairs suddenly
turned out the lights while I was in that building with 250 or 255
boys. Some fellow started to yell and before I knew it they were all
yelling. They never tried to do me any harm.
The Chairman. While you are speaking of that, have they mani-
fested any insubordination in your presence ?
Dr. Friedman. That was the only occasion I have ever seen of
that kind.
The Chairman. You have not heard them call you opprobrious
names or any names, for that matter ?
Dr. Friedman. No; I have not. There may have been something
of that kind without my knomng it — in letters or something of that
kind. I recently saw a letter written by an employee who was doing
that — a man who was mixed up with this fellow ]\iann.
Thf^ Chairman. Who was that ?
Dr. Friedman. A fellow by the name of Bainey. They were stay-
ing over at the athletic quarters — employees, mind you. They were
getting the boys in groups around them and telling how this, that, or
the other department of the school ought to be run, and using language
that was absolutely foul. One of these men was a man by the name
of Bainey, a temporary employee. The other fellow was a man by
the name of Mann. I moved him out of tliat building and rt^ported
that matter to the office.
The Chairman. He is gone now, is he ?
Dr. Friedman. No; he is there.
Inspector Linnen. He has been referred to twice, and, in justice
to him, who has not had an opportunity to appear bef<u-e your body
and say anything, T will have to say that I have his affidavit, which
I shall l)e glad to furnish you. He absolutely denies all of these
charges that are made.
Or. Friedman. Well, three of the boys came up to my office, and
one of them was the caretaker of the building. They came up there
(wniisfj': iNDT.w sciiooi. 1255
separately and their sti ries absclutelv ajjreed. I know from my own
Eersunal cbservation that he was not a man of good influence. He
ad charge of the Y. M. C. A. and simply made a joke of it. He never
had any regular meetings.
The Chairman. Do you remember the case of and ?
They were charged Anth fornication and confined in tlio county jail
for 60 day.
Dr. Friedmax. Yes; 1 recall it. As 1 recall that case~l tliink
that was the case — these students both had bad records. The Ix)}-
came from one of the far Western States. The disciplinarian wrote
me a note at the time, stating that tliis boy had been sentenced for
horse steahng, or something of the kind. He had been in trouble
repeatedly on the reservation. The girl had been in trouble under
the outing system and at the school. She lived on a reservation up
in New York, and tlieir influences were extremely bad, and it was a
very severe violation of the rules — their getting together. After going
over the matter thoroughly we thought an example ought to be made
of those students. I turned the matter over to Mr. McKcan and asked
him to take the matter up with the local county judge and see what
could be done. Personally I was in favor of their being sent to a refor-
matory, in view of their record and the conditions surrounchng the
case, but they w^ere sent to the county jail. After that they were
returned to their homes. It was done as an example for the other
students, as well as a matter that concerned them person;illy.
The Chairman. That was done at 3^our expense t
Dr. Friedman. At my expense; yes, sir. I want to say in that
connection that '>ve sent about four students away in that way —
several of them were boys — and that has been done repeatedly in
the past, and the court records of Carlisle show that there have been
fewer instances of that kind — —
The Chairman. Have there been other cases where the}" have been
imprisoned for these offenses ?
Dr. Friedman. There was a boy sent to jail. 1 had him s(Mit to jail
because of continued tliievery of some kind.
The Chairman. Steahng pies, was it not {
Dr. Friedman. It may have been: but he had ])een guilty of steal-
ing re])eatedly.
The Chairman. You had ^Ir. Whitwell make that charge. Who
did you have make that charge \
Dr. Friedman. I think that matter was discussed in faculty
meeting.
The Chairman. Some one made the charge.
Dr. Friedman. I do not recall who it was.
The Chairman. Do you know that the laws of Pennsylvania do not
pro^'ide imprisonment for the olfense of fornication; that it is only a
fineable offense under the lav/s of Pennsylvania \
Dr. Friedman. It may be they were fined
The Chairman. No; it shows, just as you say, that the county
judge ordered them' to jail for GO days.
Dr. Friedman. Of course, I am not a lawyer, gentlemen, had I took
it for granted tliat the judge was doing what he had authority to do.
Th(> Chairman. While those ])upils were in jail was there any
attention oaid to them ])V the school luithoi-ities, or w(>re thev h^ft
I
1256 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
to such punishment and surroundings as surrounded them in the
jail.
Dr. Friedman. They were undoubtedly looked after by the
authorities in the jail.
The Chairman. Do you know whether the boy was provided with
any change of clothing or not ?
JDr. Friedman. I presume any jail looks after conditions of that
kind.
The Chairman. The statement has been made — and there is
some information, though I do not state it as that — that he stayed
there 70 days without a change of clothing.
Dr. Friedman. That is cause for investigation of the jail.
The Chairman. I don't know — if you have people put in jail
you are chargeable with some knowledge of their rights, I think.
Now, let me ask you this question. You did not have any idea of j
takmg those people back after they came out of jail, did you ?
Dr. Friedman. Oh, no; there was no desire to have them back.
The Chairman. Yo,u not only did not want to have them therej
but you did not intend to let them return ?
Dr. Friedman. We did not want them on the grounds.
The Chairman. Why would it not have been better to send them
on home ?
Dr. Friedman. I tell you, a great many of those students come
there with very bad records. Once there was a boy sent there who
had been sentenced to jail for murder. They send us the worse
students on the reservation right along. How can we tell ?
The Chairman. I don't know; I am trying to find out. If you
can not tell, how do you know ?
Dr. Friedman. Because T liave tlie letters after they are there,
when some little question arises. For instance, there is a girl there
by the name of Minnie Apache. She was at Haskell, and whipped a
matron there and ran away. She eats peyote. She came to Carlisle
and started to stu* up things with the matron there — and we have a
very excellent matron there.
The Chairman. Miss Ridenour?
Dr. Friedman. Miss Ridenour, a woman that is thoroughly con-
scientious, who looks sterner than she is. Slie has a good heart, and
I tliink she has the sympathy of the students except when they are
agitated and aroused against her by persons on the grounds.
This girl did everything she could to get tlie matron to send lier
home, and I wrote to the agent — Mr. Stoker. He says, "We do
not want her here. She has been running everybody around here,
and what she needs is severe discipline." On one occasion she had
som? difTiculty with the matron, and the matron locked her up here,
and ^^hen they brought her some food she took the whole tray and
dashed it riglit at them. She had a very stubborn will. We found
out on one occasion that her parents were sending her peyote. I just
mention that to show the character of some of the students.
This boy that I mentioned was sentenced to" the reformatory for
killing a man — a very shrewd boy; a man really. Before he got
through there he was raising Cain; getting drunk. We have had
eases of that kind repeatcnlly.
The Chairman. Do vou have manv cases of iinnioralitv ^
CARLISLE IXDL\N SCHOOL. 1267
Dr. Fkiedmax. I think wo have fewer cases of immorcility, Senator,
than you would have with the same number of white boys and girls
under similar circumstances.
The Chairman. That is a very gratifying statement. How many
cases have you had in your administration ?
Dr. Friedman. I presume there is a record over iliere; I do not
think there are very many.
The Chairman. I presume \ ou do not cany tliem in \-our memory ?
Dr. Friedman. For instance, in the last year we have had, I think,
three or four cases. I can not recall with accuracy; possibly four or
five. We have some cases of students who are sent home who are not
immoral; tliey are sim])ly incorrigible. While the records may show
they have been sent home, it would not necessarily indicate that they
have been engaged in immorality.
The Chairman. But is it not a fact that in a good many instances
where they have in fact been sent home the records show that their
time was up, or that they did not return, or something of that sort?
Dr. Friedman. No; I think when they are sent home they are sent
home on that basis, as a general thing.
The Chairman. Do you know of any case in which the record was
made to reflect some other cause ?
Dr. Friedman. I do not have charge of those records, but the
clerk who has charge of that knows the conditions, and I do not think
he would
The Chairman. Who is that ^
Dr. Friedman. Why, Mr. Me^rer.
The Chairman. He is the clerk that keeps that ?
Dr. Friedman. Yes.
The Chairman. I suppose he has to get his information to make
those entries from somebody ? He can not make the records u]) from
his own knowledge ?
Dr. Friedman. He gets the information from the disciplinarian.
Senator Lane. Doesn't he get it from you? Aren't you responsi-
ble for those records ?
Dr. Friedman. Yes, sir; and wdienever there is a case of immorality
he gets the information from me.
(Here followed an informal discussion relating to morality in the
school, which was not re])orted.)
Dr. Friedman. Most of these cases of immorality which you sj)eak
of happened under a ])revious matron — Miss Gaither. This is a
specific case that I think will interest you. A woman there by the
name of Miss Jennie Gaitlier, who came in under Maj. Mercer's admin-
istration— she left a small school in Minnesota where she had less than
100 girls, and wdiere she was ineflacient, and she was sent to Carlisle.
When I came I saw very soon that she was not a good matron, that
she was lax in discipline, and that she allowed the girls to do as they
pleased. In fact, she was extremely careless and negligent. On one
occasion all of the officers in her building came to my office and com-
plained of the laxity of discipline on her building. I wrote to her
about it. She is a woman with a sunny smile and troubles never
bother her. I reported that woman every six months for four years
and nothing was ever done.
I finally told the office that a change had to be made; that 1 was
responsible for those girls and boys, and that a change was funda-
1258 CARLISr.E IN'DI.VX .SCHOOL.
jiu'iital if the girls were to be jn-operi}' protected. There was a h(uirt-
reiidiog investigation; everything was twisted upside down, and the
result of it was that Miss Jennie Gaither was transferred and pro-
moted to the ])Osition of matron of another large school, and from a
salary of $800 to a salary of $840. She is now at Phoenix, and word
comes to me from Phoenix^ — because I was em]:)loyed there — that she
is absolutely helpless.
The Chairman. Who made the " h(>artren(ling investigation" that
3^ou spoke of ?
Dr. Friedmax. I think it was Maj. McLaughlin. It was the kmd
of investigation where there was a tremen(]ous amount of bitterness,
and she and her sister wrote a lot of villifying letters, and wrote to
Senators and Congressmen, and they stirred up that kind of stuff, and
it was prolonged. They were sent there some weeks after the investi-
gation was made.
I sim])h" point that out to 3'ou to show that I have been watchful
of these questions of discipline, and that they have been brought prop-
erly to the attention of the office, but I have no power of removal of
employees there.
The Chairman. Did you see an article published in the Public
Ledger, of Philadelphia, under date of January 28, 1914, under the
heacling of "Gen. Pratt alleged to be seeking revenge on Moses
Friedman"?
Dr. Friedman. I saw it; yes.
The Chairman. Do you know who wrote or inspired that article ?
Dr. Friedman. I think there was a staff correspondent down from
Philadelphia. They sent me a telegram, I believe, and wanted me to
write something, and I never answered the telegram.
The Chairman. Did you give them a statement ?
Dr. Friedman. No; I gave them no statement. This man came
down and spent a whole day and night in town looking around, and
he was talking to people in town, and he came out to the school and
spoke with me a few moments. I told him I could not enter into any
discussion of this matter.
The Chairman. Who was this man, this correspondent ?
Dr. Friedman. I do not recall his name.
The Chairman. Did you ever know him before ?
Dr. Friedman. No.
The Chairman. You sa}^ the article was written by him. Did you
refer him to anyone ?
Dr. Friedman. I referred him to no one.
The Chairman. The article contains the following and other expres-
sions: "Politics and revenge and ambition are behind the charges."
Did you authorize^ — —
Dr. Friedman. I authorized nothing \^dth reference to that
article.
The Chairman. The statement is also made:
Carlisle accuses Geu. Pratt of having invented the charges made by the Indian
Rights Association. The big citizens of the town say he is hiding behind the associa-
tion, and that he is also using Congressman Arthur Rupley to pull Pratt chestnuts
from the fire. It is Gen. Pratt's ambition to return as superintendent of the school.
Do you know whether that is true or not?
Dr. Friedman. 1 have heard it stated on a number of occasions.
I heard it stated by a very prominent gentleman in Carlisle.
J
I
CAltLlsLK IXDIAX SCHOOI . 1259
The Chairmax. Who was it that you heard state it ?
Dr. Friedmax. I would prefer not to
The Chairmax. Why?
Dr. Friedmax. Simph^ because I do not want to involve anyone in
Carlisle in the matter. . 1 have heard it from three or four pet)ple.
The Chairmax. Who were they?
Dr. Friedmax. I would prefer not to give them.
The Chairmax. I want to iind out what they know about it.
Dr. Friedmax. One gentleman — John Hayes — ^told me on three or
four occasions that he had been together with Gen. Pratt during the
summer, and that Pratt said he expected to come back here at
Carlisle as superintendent; that conditions now were such in the
Indian Office that that could be done.
The Chairmax. You have read that article that I have referred to ?
Dr. Friedmax. I read it Thursda}'.
The Chairmax". Is it or is it not a fact that much of the informa-
tion contained in the article came from you or with your knowledge
and consent ?
Dr. Friedmax. No. The man came up there and had his stor}''
practically prepared. He came out there and saw me for a little
while.
The Chairmax. Did you see the stoiy ?
Dr. Friedmax. I have seen it; j^es.
The Chairmax. Did 3'ou see it when he came out there?
Dr. Friedmax'. No; I saw it in the newspapers.
The Chairmax. What do you mean ?
Dr. Friedmax^. He told me that he had seen people in the town
and talked with them. He told me at that time that in his judgment
it was Pratt and Rupley.
The Chairmax. Did you tell him what you thought about it?
Dr. Friedmax. I told him I did not care to venture into a dis-
cussion of it.
The Ch.\irmax. Did he talk with the newspaper man who repre-
sents the athletic association — Mr. Miller or Mr. Martin ?
Dr. Friedmax. I would not be prepared to sa}' that: I do not
know.
The Chairmax. Did he tell you where he got his information?
Dr. Friedmax. He said he had seen a great many of the men in
town.
The Chairmax. Did he tell you whom he had seen and talked with ?
Dr. Friedmax. He did not tell me.
The Chairmax. Did he ask you whetlier the information he had
was authentic or untrue ?
Dr. Friedma-V. He did not tell nie what ijiformatioj) he had,
exce])t what he thought about Ruple}- and Pratt.
The Chairmax. You expressed no opinion to him, and would not
give him any information?
Dr. Friedmax. I talked to him about general conditions, yes.
The Chairmax. He was a staff correspondent of the Ledger, I
beheve, but you did not know what his J:ame was?
Dr. Friedmax. I do not know who he was.
The Chairmax. He was sent down from Philadelphia, yon say?
Dr. Friedmax. Yes.
1260 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. You have no knowledge whether there is any
foundation in the statements in that article or not, yon say ?
Dr. Friedman. I am frank to say, as I stated before, that I have
heard it repeatedly stated fi*om different sources that Gen. Pratt
made those statements. I know from personal knowledge that he
has been in correspondence with Mr. Rupley.' Now, for instance
The Chairman. What are the other sources of information? You
mentioned Mr. Hayes.
Dr. Friedman. Mr. Stauffer repeated it to me that he heard it
from Mr. Denny, who was a close friend of Gen. Pratt's.
The Chairman. Is there any one else you recall?
Dr. Friedman. I think not. I heard it talked about in town, you
understand. I would not care to mention any other names.
The Chairman. I would like to have all the names. I do not
know why you give some of them and withhold others.
Dr. Friedman. Simply because I do not want to involve anybody
in this controversy. I do not see that there is anytliing to come of it.
The Chairman. We want full information about it, and I do not
know any reason why you should give some names and not all of them.
Dr. Friedman. You insist upon the name of that gentleman there,
and I have no objection to mentioning Mr. Denny's name.
The Chairman. Do you remember anybody else that communi-
cated that information to you ?
Dr. Friedman. I do not remember any specific names, no. I
recall a gentleman spealdng to me about a visit Gen. Pratt made here
last summer, and ariother gentleman from northerji New York spoke
to me about
The Chairman. Tell us the names of them as you go along.
Dr. Friedman (continuing). About having a visit with Gen. Pratt
in wliich Gen. Pratt was condemning the school.
The Chairman. Who was it ?
Dr. Friedman. Dr. Lake, up in New York.
The Chairman. What was he doing here? What are his initials?
Dr. Friedman. I do not know his initials.
The Chairman. If Gen. Pratt is conspiring to v.Tongfully oust you
fi'om your position here and is actually attacking the school, why do
you not want to give us all the information you can ?
Dr. Friedman. Simply because I feel that is a matter I wiU have
to attend to myself. I feel that you gentlemen are not particularly
interested in it.
The Chairman. We are interested in it, of course.
Dr. Friedman. I feel tliat that is a matter th; i concerns me and
Gen. Pratt, and that —
The Chairman. All right; we will see whether it concerns you
and Gen. Pratt alone. You are a representative of the Government,
as we are, and the Government has an in.terest in it. Did you know
that charges had been filed against you for investigation, charging
that you had inspired .that article and crused it to be published, and
that the charges in the article are false and libelous?
Dr. Friedman. I read some such sttitement in the i)a])er, and
when I read it I said this, that if Gen. Pratt was sincere and had a
grievance there was a better way than that of getting at it
The Chairman. And wliat is "that ?
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1261
Dr. Friedman (contiiuiiu|):) . Than l)y soiidiuo- charges to the Indian
Office and piil)lishing them in a newspaper. That was to settle tliem
in the courts. There is a shmder, and he is accusing me of slander,
and the courts of Pennsylvania take notice of that.
The Chairman. When one thinks he has more than one remedy,
he chooses his own remedy, you know, usually ?
Dr. Friedman. Yes: I knr-w.
The Chairman. And you can not choose your antagonist's rem-
edy ever}' time.
Now, can you give the commission any further information tending
to show that Gen. Pratt has been attacking the school or attempting
to injure your reputation in connection with it, or cause you to be
ousted from the superintendency of the school? Can you give the
names of any other persons \\'h() liave communicated this information
toj'ou from v\'hom we may get the information^
i>r. Friedman. It is a matter I have not given any thought to,
and I could not give 3'ou any information at present.-
The Chairman. You state under oath that you had no connection
with the article ?
Dr. Friedman. I state that.
The Chairman. And had no responsibility for it?
Dr. Friedman. No.
The Chairman. You are a member of the executive committee
or ])o.ird of director of the athletic association, are vou, Dr. Fried-
man ?
Dr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That is a corporation, is it ?
Dr. Friedman. Yes.
The Chairman. Who are. the other members of the board?
Dr. Friedman. Mr. Warner and Mr. Miller, and there is an advi-
sory c )mmittee, composed of a number of gentlemen Walter Camp,
Mr. McC rmick, of the University of Pittsburgh; James Sullivan,
secretary and treasurer of the Amateur Athletic Union; Dr. Nol)le;
and one or two other gentlemen.
_ Tne Chairman. It "has the actual control of tlie athletic asso-
ciation ?
Dr. Friedman. The association is under the immediate jurisdiction
of the executive committee.
The Chairman. "V\1io are they?
Dr. Friedman. I have given their names.
Tne Chairman. Who controls the disbursement c^f that fund, tlie
payment (;f exj.enditures ?
Dr. Friedman. The executive committee.
The Chairman. What individuals?
Dr. Friedman. The entire executive committee.
The Chairman. Do you have meetings w^henever an account is to
be paid, and formally present that to the committee?
Dr. Friedman. No; it does not go through the formality of a
meeting, but there is an understanding. Everybody is consulted in
the matter.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, when you present an account
for expenses for a trip to Washington, you simply make out a state-
ment, "Expenses to Washington," giving the date, and hand it to
1262 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. ^liller, the clork or treasurer, aiid he gives you ti clieck for it ; is
that the way ?
Dr. Friedman. Tlicre was a general understaoding when I came
tliere tliat on trips of that kind they were to be handled that way.
They had always been handled that way in the past. As a matter
of fact under the former administration of the school tliat entire fund
was handled personally by the superintendent, and he asked no one
any questions regarding it. He handled it himself, and the recui-ds
show it was handled in a ver}^ jiigh-handed fashion.
TJie Chairman. What accounts are properly payable out of tJiat
fund ? Is there any rule or principle ?
Dr. Friedman. The account exists for the benefit of the school.
The Chairman. It ought to be under the control of the school, as
a matter of fact, ought it not?
Dr. Friedman. I have no objection to it
The Chairman. What do you think, as a matter of policy?
Dr. Friedman.^ I do not see how you can take up the funds. I do
not see how you can conduct an athletic association when you have
to get bids and proposals on all these little supplies, and get author-
ity for this and authority for the other. Your association wou.ld be
kihed.
The Chairman. You tliirik the red tape that would be required
would so embarras;; the administration of tlie fimd that you could
not accomplish anything ?
Dr. Friedman. It would not embarrass it; it would hinder it, hin-
der the proper conduct of business.
The Chairman. Why is not that tru.e of the general business?
Dr. Frie ^man. In the general business of the school you do not
have to spend a certain sum of money at once. If you have to
spend it you take it out of your pocket, and you are reimbursed.
Here are a great many athletic supplies which do not permit of
obtaining bids, and there are many trips that have to be taken by
different teams, and sometimes the per diem expejises exceed the
Government regulations. There are many conditions of that kind
entering into it which worJd make it impossible for the association
to exist if the funds were handled under the regulations of the Gov-
ernment.
The Chairman. Under what conditions do you charge your ex-
penses to Washington and elsewhere to the athletic association ?
Dr. Fhiedman. I have done i.t very seldom; when I go down on
some matter of business for the school, or when I visit some institu-
tion, or when I attend a game, I have occasionally paid expenses
for }>trs. Friedman, in accordance with the custom that has been in
vog.ie tliere. On some occasions I have had the former superin-
tendent of the school there as a guest of the association.
I have a very meager salary of $2,650 a year, and I have to pay
for my bond out of that. Formerly superintendents there had a
salarv of more than double what I draw — their regular Army pay of
$4,000 and $1,000 (xtra from the Interior Department", and in
addition to that a certain sum of money provickd for entertaining.
And I simply coidd Tiot go to thcs;^ games if I did not go in this way.
The Chairman. I s;>e that l)y check No. .3508, dated October 24,
191.3, a liotel bill at Noifolk wtis paid by you of $54.05. Have you
any ri^ccdlcction of that item?
CARLISLE INDLIX SCHOOL. 12()3
Dr. FiUEDMAN. VVliy, \\s; Major ami Ali-s. Mercer wcrv tlicrc.
As I recall it tlieii' expenses were included.
The Chairman. How long were you there? Do you know (f
Dr. Friedman. I do not know. Two or thre(> days.
The Chairman. Was that a foothall game?
Dr. Friedman. Yes.
The Chairman. I see lure check No. 3139, November 15, 1012,
(xpenses to Philadelphia, Pa., $69.20; theater tickets, $10; additional
expense to Philadelphia, Pa., $22. I presume that v,as a footl-all
trip, too ?
Dr. Friedman. Yes.
The Chairman. That expense, I suppose, embrac( tl youi- liotel bill ?
Dr. Friedman. Yes.
The Chairman. Also check No. 3138, November 14, 1912, exjxj.ses
to Washington, $75.65. What was that trip for?
Dr. Friedman. I do not know whether it was a game or something
in the mterest of the school. 1 do rot recall.
The Chairman. When you went in the interest of the school,
woulel you charge it to the expense of the athletic funel ?
Dr. Friedman. V\liy, on several occasions I elid; yes.
The Chairman. Why did you do that?
Dr. Friedman. Vvhy, I was there in the mterest of the school, and
that fund was th( re for that purpose.
The Chairman. That is what the funel was for, is it ^
Dr. FiaEDMAN. The funel has ahvays beeji uscel for expd s;s of
that kind. Gen. Pratt made a trip to Europe with Ids wife and
family and friends, and spent $3,000.
The Chairman. Out of tlie athletic fund?
Dr. Friedman. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you think that v/as proper?
Dr. Friedman. No, I elo not think that was proper. That was
purely a pleasure trip.
The Chairman. What sort of busmess were you on hi WasMngton ?
Dr. Friedman. Probably up at the department with rcferenci^ to
school matters.
The Chairman. I see here check No. 2848, January 27, 1912,
expenses to Washuigton, $42.20. Also check No. 2929, April 9,
1912, expenses $58.60. I suppose you have no way to refresli your
memory. Do you know wliat that was for?
Dr. Friedman. To where?
The Chairman. It does not say.
Dr. Friedman. I do not recall.
The Chairman. I think the stub shows it was for some entertain-
ment at your home.
Dr. Friedman. Why, it was probably a student wedding. There
are only two or three occasions when expenses of that kind have been
incurred. This last year and for the past six years every commence-
ment there is a tremendous amount of entertaining to be done, and
a great many guests, and I have always elefrayed that out of ray salary.
As a matter of fact, I have no money, gentlemen; I am a poor man.
I have had to live up to my salary limit because of the tremendous
expenses out there; and this year for the first time, after consulting
with some of the people out there, the general expenses of the com-
mencement entertainment were handeel in to the association. It was
1264 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
something like $100. That was a perfectly legitimate expense, and
I ought to have collected it every year, but I have always been very
timid about using those athletic funds, and I have used them very
seldom. In fact, I have gone to three football games this last year,
and I have paid for those expenses out of my pocket. I have done
that repeatedly; I have paid for those entirely legitimate expenses
out of my pocket.
The Chaieman. I alwa^^s pay them out of my pocket.
Dr. Friedman. But you are not connected. Senator, ^^^th an insti-
tution
The Chairman. I have been — well, we will pass that. Take check
No. 2S00, July 26, 1911, expenses to Boston, $48. Do you know
what that trip was for ?
Dr. Friedman. I presume it was a game. I do not recall.
The Chairman. Do they play football in July?
Dr. Friedman. July?
The Chairman. Yes.
Dr. Friedman. It must have been something else then. There are
track meets and things of that kind.
The Chairman. I wanted to see if you had any memory of it.
You stated awhile ago that 3^ou had not made many trips at the ex-
pense of this fund. There are a good many recorded — not a great
many, but quite a number. I call your attention to check No. 2747,
November 20, 1911, expenses to Philadelphia, S55. Was that a
football trip ?
Dr. Friedman. Yes.
The Chairman. July 28, 1911, expenses to Washington, $17. Do
you know what that was for ?
Dr. Friedman. Department business.
The Chairman. July 11, 1911, $22, expenses to New York.
Dr. Friedman. I visited New York several times for the purpose
of visiting schools up there. That is quite a distance back, and I
could not recall it.
The Chairman. That would probably be school business proper,
do you think, and not athletic business ?
Dr. Friedman. Wliy, the athletic fund is available for that pur-
pose.
The Chairman. It seems to have been available for almost every
purpose — newspaper correspondents, clipping bureaus, telegraphic
returns from elections, commencement expenses, mileage books
Dr. Friedman. I am exceedin^l}" sorry that you did not go back
in the account and look into it in former years. You would have
gotten some interesting information.
The Chairman. I did not think you would be responsible for that
account.
Dr. Friedman. I think. Senator, you will fmd this fund has been
legitimately used.
The Chairman. Now, let us see. Under date of May 24, 1910,
3'ou made a trip to Hnnipton: at lo.ist, there is r. check of that date.
What was that for?
Dr. Friedman. Visiting Hanipton, I ])resume.
The Chairman. I imagined it might have been that, but what
were you doing there? Every time you took a trip you did not
•cliarge it 'o t^ic athletic fund, did you?
CARLISLE INDL\X SCHOOL, 1265
Dr. Friedman. On some occasions 1 diarized it to the General
Go vernmeni uj c oiint .
The Chairman. Do you remember a trip to Hampton^
Dr. Friedman. 1 do not recall it.
The Chairman. Was not that at the time of the return of the
fleet — what is that Hampton? Is that Hampton, Va.?
Dr. Friedman. That is where that favorite school of Judge Ste-
phens is. They call it an Indian school.
The Chairman. What were you doing down there? Looking for
points ?
Dr. Friedman. 1 thought I mlglit pick up some ideas.
The Chairman. Check No. 1633, October 28, 1909, expenses to
Washington, S87; check No. 1534, September 4, 1909, expenses to
Wasliington, S16; check No. IISI, January 30, 1909, expenses to
Washington, §70.90. Have you any idea or an}^ way of telling for
what purpose those trips were taken?
Dr. Friedman. They v.'ere generally taken in the interest of the
school and de})artment affairs.
The Chairman. On any of these tri])s that you made to Wasliing-
ton over the Cumberland Valley Raib-oad and tlie Pennsylvania liaU-
road and back, did you use mileage books fia-nished you by the ath-
letic association?
Dr. Fried^ean. I may have done that. I have purchased my own
mileage books, and used them from time to time for different pur-
poses. I never noticed which books were used.
The Chairman. On the occasions that you used mileage books
furnished by the athletic association did you ever charge the ex-
penses of tlie railroad fare also to the Government in your account as
supermtendent ?
Dr. Friedman. Whenever I travel on Government expense I use
pei-sonal mileage; I may have had some one with me and used athletic
mileage, but whenever I have chargetl up mileage to the Government
I have used my own mileage.
The Chairman. Then you have never on the same occasion used
the athletic mileage book
Dr. Friedman. I may have used mileage
The Chairman. Of course, you know the records in the office show
the number of the books, and the records of the railroads show the
number of tlie books used. And they show that on certain occasions
those mileage books were used, and your accounts in the ])ureau shcnv
that on the same day and for the same trips you cluirged that as an
item of expense to the Government.
Dr. Friedman. That is entirely possible, that I used that mileage,
and I may have used a mileage book of the association. I told you a
moment ago I have had my own mileage books from time to time,
and I have used my own mileage on several occasions.
The CiiAiRMAX. Yes; but when you did use the athletic mileage
books you shoidd not also charge the Government with the expense
of it, should you ?
Dr. Friedman. I do not recall any time that 1 have ever done that.
Just as I say, I have had my own personal mileage from time to time,
and I have had other persons traveling with me and on my own personal
mileage.
35601— PT 11—14^ 20
1266 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. Where do you buy your personal mileage books ?
Dr. Friedman. In New York and Washington, on a number of
occasions. I have got into New York sometimes on some matter and
did not have enough mileage, and I have gotten mileage and I have
used that mileage on a number of occasions.
The Chairman. These mileage books are always numbered, are
they not, so that the book that was actually used on a given trip can
be shown in the record ?
Dr. Friedman. I presume they can.
The Chairman. Do you know what the state of the athletic fund
account is ?
Dr. Friedman. What do you mean by that?
The Chairman. What are the assets to the credit of it ?
Dr. Friedman. I do not know — $25,000 possibly, or something
like that. I do not recall the exact figure; in fact, I do not keep close
tab on it.
The Chairman. What do you think is the remedy for the conditions
that exist in the school that ought to be corrected ?
Dr. Friedman. If 3^ou will just allow mo, here is a letter here with
reference to this corporal punishment. It was written to Mr. Denny,
March 18, 1913, after the complaint had been made by one of the boys
about liis being severe in his punishment [reading] :
March 18, 1913.
Mr. Denny:
I liaA^e your report of March 17 with reference to a communication received from
William Bishop. \^niile no special credence is beinp; placed in the veracity of Bishop,
whose record at this school was distinctly unfavorable and whose record since he left
the school has been unsatisfactory, I deem it advisable to let you know definitely
what the situation is with reference to punishment at this school.
About five years ago, when I lirst came to Carlisle, I allowed it to be known at a
faculty meeting that I was not in favor of corporal punishment; that other methods
of punishment, such as confinement in the guard house, additional work and depriva-
tion of town, drawing money, and social jirivileges, were more humane and more
desirable, because more salutary.
I want to place myself definitely on record with reference to this matter to the extent
that under no circumstances is corporal punishment to be inflicted by you or any other
employee of this school without first obtaining permission from the superintendent.
I am frank to say that it will be a very difficult matter to obtain such permission,
because 1 am not in favor of corporal punishment, believing that it is a relic of bar-
barous age, which should be eliminated from every Indian school in the country.
The mere fact that such punishment has been abandoned in penitentiaries and re-
formatories indicates how imwise it is to permit its promiscuous use in this school.
Very respectfully.
Superintendent.
Tlie Chairman. Before you answer the question that I submitted
to 3"ou, you said that among the first things you took up when you
went there wore the health conditions. What did you. iind in that
regard. Dr. Friedman? What were the health conditions?
Dr. Friediman. The health conditions were fair, but there were no
such facihties as sleeping porches for tubercular students, and I
immediately took that matter up and had some sleeping porches
constructed on both sides of the hospital, and on the second story in
the rear. I had the entire hospital equipped with the most sanitary
equipment. I have put in a system of records of students so as to
keep track of the various diseases. Careful efforts were made to
segregate the tubercular patients and to send them home when they
did not improve. I went further than that. There were a number of
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1267
places around the _o;rouiuls that were insauitaiy. The (lining liall
was in a very insanitar}' condition, and the dishes were not washed
properly. I put in a dish-w^ashing machine there so that ])oiling water
could be used. The Idtchen was improved and a new floor i)ut in,
and the dining room was brightened up and made a better and
cleaner place.
I foinid the sanitar\ arrangeriients in the large boys' quarters were
awfiil. I re]Dorted tliose re|)eatedly to the office, and iinalh we have
r,bti,ined funds to put up a toilet ])inlding there, Vvith the jrorer toilet
facilities, se]:)arate to^\'els, etc. The same action was taken in tlie
dairy barn. When 1 first cajne to C^irlisle the dair-. ])?^,rn was in a had
condttiun. The cows were dying fro 'i tuberculosis, and a new l)arn
was \)vd iiy>. Some im|:rovements have been made in the girls' build-
ing, and also some in tlie si •■all boys' cpiarters, altliough we have not
had funtis enougli to go far enough for that. Tlierc was a verv bail
flooding down })e;> end tlie school building, which wti,s a breeding ]:'lace
for mos(|uitoes. It was a very, ver-. ])ad nasty place. I had that
drained, and daring the last 'car thev raised $2,400 worth e-f vegeta
bles on that one ]jlot. It was originaiis made as a j.lace for the school
garden, but the princi])td teacher failed to send stiide.nts there foi"
l:ia( instruction, and it was ])ut in the control of a ;Ietail of bo^s
detailed under the llorist for histruction in gardening. It is a mo<iel
truck garden, and a trej'.iendous nujuber >,i vegetables and other
thhigs are raised there. In this last season the amount was $2,400 as
I suggesteih Other places in the scho( 1 were drained .and mademore
sanitary.
I also sent for a traclioma exp-ert from the Indian OITice, and he
came and carefuliv looked into the trachoma situation among tl-e
students, and effort^ vvere made to handde tliat h\ segregation and
by |)roj)er treating.
The Chairman. Did }ou iind nrnch trachoi^ia there?
Dr. Friedman. I understood the expert to say on liis inve.')tiga-
tion that he found a smaller j ere en t age there than at otlier ]-lj',ces in
the service.
The Chairman. Dr. x^iUeii stated todaiy that between 7(» imI 75
])er cent of ail the pu-pUs m the school were affected.
Dr. Friedman. 1 thmk he is ofi on that.
The Chairman. Hovv ;\\\:c\\ tuberculosis is there?
Dr. Friedman. There was an examinatjon made of the scliool
just recentb.', un.4er the liirection of Dr. Di>.ou, head of the State
^.ledical Boarvl of Pemls\I^ ania, one of the Nation's foremost authori-
ties on that subject, audi he spoke of tiie iuedical conditions at the In-
dian schocd with the highest ]>ossible praise, and said that the condi-
tions were favorable. He compared the death rate (hiring jny ad-
ministration of an average oi about four with the death rate in the
early years of the scliool, which was as high as IS and 20.
Th.e Chairman. Does thvA correctly state the death rate since you
have been here. Doctor ?
Dr. Friedman. Y(^s, about four.
The Chahlman. What was the nund)er of (ieaths last year?
Dr. Friedman. They were larg(»r last year than they wore bcuire.
I think tlun'e were sLx or seven. 1 think there were six.
Tl)e CiiAiRMAN. AVhat was that (hie to, if you know?
1268 OAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Dr. Friedman. Something thut you can not tell. Sometimes these
students get a hasty case of consumption.
The Chairman. Do vou know how many died year before last;
that Ls, 1912?
Dr. Friedman. I can give you the records. The number of deaths
in 1909 was 1; 1910, 3; 1911' 1; 1912, 1; 1913 to November ], 3. I
think there were a total of about 6. In 1888, with about half the
number of students, there were 21 deaths. In 1889 there were 18
deaths. That is the way they ran back tiiere.
The Chairman. J \\ant to ask }ou briefly about the vocational
training at the school. Is that a feature of the school ?
Dr. Friedman. It is.
The Chairman. What vocational work is done there ?
Dr. Friedman. We give instructions in about 20 trades and in
agiiculture. I can t( 11 you about that. I am very much interested
in the vocational training, and it has greatly improved durmg the
time I have been there. When I fk-st came they had an agriculture
instructor who was givmg instruction in chemistry, etc., in the school
building, and he had general supervision of the farm, and was allow-
ing the farm to grow" up in weeds. I felt that ought to be rectifird,
and we made efforts to get a better agriculture -teacher, but the results
were bad. We were allowed S2,000 a year for an agi-iculture teacher,
and a man was obtained who was inexperienced. You can readily
see the situation when you rem(>mber that m most institutions figri-
culture teachers will get from $1,200 to $5,000 a year, generally nearer
$4,000 a year. I felt that we could better rosults by having nature
study taught in the schoolrooms under the teachers and liave them
go out on the farm, visiting the farm in classes, and having them
given gejieral instruction from the farmer, and also sending the boys
out there under tlie regular conditions.
The Chairman. Is tliat the reason tlie agriculture feature of the
school was abandoned ?
Dr. Friedman. The agriculture feature of the school has never
been abandoned.
The Chairman. Didn't you use to liave n man giving h^struction
in it?
Dr. Friedman. There is a man there. We have two instructors.
The Chairman. They are called farmers. How many pupils were
instructed in agriculture on tliose farms last year ?
Dr. Friedman. If the people there in the school building were
doing their duty, every studcrit in the building would visit the farms
regularly.
The Chairman. Do you know, as matter of fact, that both (^f tlie
farmers were unable to get a sufficient elctrdl to work the small crops
that they proeluced, and that the pupils that were actually sent on
th(> farm wen^ sent there in tlie nature of a penalty?
Dr. Friedman. If that was done, it was entirely without authority
from mo.
The Chairman. That would be a very bad system.
Dr. F^riedman. C(>rtainly, it would be a bad system.
The Chairman. Tliat is what the evidence shows, that the instruc-
tion of it is nihil.
vSenator Lane. If that condition (>xisted, woidd not you know it
from persojial observation?
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1269
Dr. Friedman. That was claimod by one of the men at one time,
and I went after one of the jx ople in charge of the dormitory.
Senator Lane. I know; but if it existed last year
Dr. Feiedman. I think if it existed it woukl come to my knowkdge.
Senator Lane. Woukl you not absolutely have to know it?
Dr. Friedman. No; I would not. There are st vera] hundi-ed boys
there, but only a small number of boys can be cktailed out there,
because tiiey would simply b(> loafhig around douig nothuig. The
disciplinarian is the man wlio makes out those details. The boys
work where they are supposed to work.
Senator Lane. So it might go on without your knowing about it?
Dr. Friedman. It might, but not long, because the boys would
complain about it.
The Chairman. Do you know whether the same conditions prevail
in the shoe shop, or similar conditions; and in the paint shop, the
carpenter shop — that is, that boys are detailed there for a short time,
and as soon as they begm to show proficiency they are taken out ?
Dr. Friedman. I do not thuik that condition prevails. They may
be taken out for a month on duty some place Avhere they are needed
and where every boy on the grounds must take his turn. For instance,
there is a certain numbi r of boys in the laundry and a c( rtain immbe-r
in the kitchen. That is routine work.
Senator Lane. I am >iot talkuig about that. We are talking
about stone masonry
The Chairman. Where the trades are taught?
Dr. Friedman. They are kept in there, I believe, pretty regularly,
unless a boy asks to be changed.
The Chairman. If the condition did not prevail, would you know
it?
Dr. Friedman. I see the details.
The Chairman. Take the tinner's statement. He states he had
with hmi this year only two boys that were with hhn last year.
Dr. Friedman. The boys may have gone home.
The Chairman. Doubtless some of them did, but they did not all
go.
Dr. Friedman. And a great many students go out to the country,
and a great many are likely to stay there for a whole year.
The Chairman. Don't you think it a bad ])ohcy to send them on
those outings when they are studyhig those trades, unless they are
gohig to have an opi)ortunity to practice the trade?
Dr. Friedman. It has been the policy for studeiits to go out on
those outings, and it may break in occasionally on the trade work;
but I tell you, Senator, I beheve that our trade histruction. is thor-
oughly organized, and we are getting splendid results with the men
we have.
The Chairman. Those that are giving the instruction say they
are aecomphshing nothing. I will say to you frankly that we have
had every one of them.
Dr. Friedman. Did you see Mr. Herr?
The Chairman. Yes, sir.
Dr. Friedman. And he was accomplishing nothing?
The Chairman. He said that so many of the boys were taken
away from him and ])laeed elsewhere that it was very unsatisfactory.
1270 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOI ,
Dr. Friedman. I thhik in the last few months there was complaint
to Mr. McKean, aiid that complamt has not been met properly. I
have had the industrial teachers in my ofHce, vSeiiator
Senator Lane. Didn't you ^o out and look?
Dr. Friedman. I go through the shops every day.
Senator Lane. You ought to be able to tell.
Dr. Friedman. As far as I can see, the boys are there.
Senator Lane. If that condition went on and you could not see
it — I went through there to-day myself, if you will pardon me, and
I found that condition prevailing. I found the same information
was volunteered to me. They are either detailed to something else,
or go to the country.
Dr. Friedman. They are detailed to lo to the country.
Sejiator Lane. And they are accomplishing little or nothing hi
that way. Thnt is the statement of all of them.
Dr. Friedman. I want, with all due res])ect, to say that I have
watched that training, probably many thousand boys. I have
watched their careers after they have gone out. I have got 50 to
100 of them places at their trades each year.
Senator Lane. You have a tin shop there?
Dr. Friedman. Yes.
Senator Lane. What kind of tin do vou use? Is it X, XX,
XXX
Dr. Friedman. I presume, all kinds.
Senator Lane. You can not do that.
Dr. Friedman. I nnght want to n'ako a heavy bucket.
Senator Lane. Then over in your blacksmith shop — who is your
best mechanic there ? Who is your best student in blacksmithing ?
Dr. Friedman. They go through a course of exercises.
Senator La-ne. What is he perfecting himself at now? General
forging work?
Dr. Friedman. They get a try at blacksmithing, wagonmaking
Senator Lane. Blacksmithing?
Dr. Friedman. The making of tires for wheels.
Senator Lane. Have you noticed his progress lately in his work?
Dr. Friedman. I have not been over there for some time, but pre-
vious to Mr. Linnen's coming I have gone there every day, and have
not missed a day.
Senator Lane. Have you noticed the brick department, where thoy
are laying brick ?
Dr. Friedman. I do not know
Senator Lane. And the plastering department.
Dr. Friedman. They put this brickwork up, and they pull it do^^^l,
and they use a very weak nioi'tar, so they do not ruin anything.
They have a place erected there for plastering. They put it up,
and when they are fairly proficient at it, if there is outside work to be
done they are put at that.
I Avill just give you an example. Senator. The boys did all the
])lastering over the dining hall, every bit of it. They have done every
i:)article of the mill work on nearly $200,000 worth of work on the
])uih!ings there in the last six yeais. They have done every particle
of painting there. This year was the first year we have hired paint-
ers, and we liave 50 buildings.
The Chairman. How does it hap]K'n you are hiring ])ainters?
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOI . 1271
Dr. Friedman. We had a trcmendons job in the girls' building,
and I did not want the boys there while the giils were there. Everv
particle of painting work there is done by the students. The build-
ings are repainted every two years, and pi'aotically all that is done by
the students.
Senator Lane. They should be dohig it.
Dr. Friedman. Why, certainly. That shows tlu'v ar(> getting
instructcMi. You can not say th(\v are not getting instruction when
they are doing those things.
Senator Lane. You said awhile ago that since ^Mr. Linnen had been
u]-> here things had been u]>set. What did you n^ean by that ?
Dr. Friedman. I want to be very frank
Senator Lane. I^et n^e tell you soivething about that. I used to
be superintendent of an institution myself, and we built buildings
with insane people.
Dr. Friedman. ¥/{^ have an expert mason there. Mr. Lamason
is one of tlie weak iren over in that industrial department. The in-
industrial departn^ents are generall}" n^anned by strong men. We
have two men in the carpenter shop. Mr. Ilerr, the head carpenter,
is a very active man. ^Ir. Gardner, when I came to Carlisle was
<lra^^'ing the same salary that Uerr was and there was no one in charge
of the shop. I felt that one of the men should take charge, and after
observing their work for some time and making inquiries I selected
Mr. Herr, and his salary was made $900 instead of $800. Mr. Gard-
ner, of course, did not like that very much, and any testimony from
Mr. Gardner will reflect that fact.
Senator Lane. The tailor
Dr. Friedman. The tailor is a fairly good man. We make the
clothing for the school, but very few boys go out in tliat trade. We
do not make civilian clothing.
The Chairman. Does the tailor repair the clotliing for the small
boys? What do you do with them?
Dr. Friedman. A certain amount of tliat clothing is repaired in
one of the sewing rooms, I think. You mean the outside clothing?
The Chairman. T mean for the small children; yes.
Dr. Friedman. I think all the outside clothing is repaired over at
the tailor shop. The people at the quarters are supposed to send it
over there.
The Chairman. lie says it is not done there, and the lady in the
sewing department says it is not done there.
Dr. Friedman. They send it down — what is the matter ^\'ith the
disciplinarian ?
The Chairman. That is what we are trying to find out.
Dr. Friedman. What is Mr. Denny doing with his clothing?
Inspector Linnen. Selling it for old rags, thousands of dollars
worth a year.
Dr. Friedman. I did not finish what I was going to say about Mr.
Linnen, gentlemen. i\Ir. Ijinnen came to Carlisle in an extremely
critical and antagonistic mood. I came there a day or two after he
was there, and he (Hd not come into my ofilce until I asked to see
him — did not come near me. I have met Mr. linnen on a number of
occasions, and he has liardly been polite. I met him one day some
days ago on the outside of tlie oflice building, but he did not recognize
me. llis attitude has been one of hostility, and it has been sliown
1272 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
towards the management of the scliool before botli the students and
the employees.
Senator Lane. Mr. Linnen lias not made these statements. They
came from tlie employees.
Tir. Friedman. I am making tliem now, sir. 1 am entitled at
least to a fair deal. I have been investigated before, but I have never
seen anything that has been done in the same high-handed manner
that has characterized the conduct of Mr. Linnen since he has been at
Carlisle, lie has objected to certain things that employees were
doing, before the students — which is vicious, and any one that has
had anything to do witli students know how quickly those things will
travel. He has talked about the number of people he has gotten out
of the service and seems to feel that that is a proper thing to discuss
with the employees. His attitude toward the men wdio he found out
the day after he got there were friendly to me has been one of
hostility.
I think you gentlemen sliould know tliat, and I intend to go on
record.
Representatwe Stephens. If there is nothing wrong he can not
hurt you.
J Jr. Friedman. What is the tendency of conduct like that? The
students take these things up; employees take these things up. They
are influenced by actions that begin on one side or the other.
Inspector Linnen. You are under oath now.
Dr. Friedman. I am under oath.
Inspector Linnen. I desire to say that your statements are abso-
lutely false, each and every one of them, tliat you have made here.
I3r. Friedman. I contradict you iiere, and 1 can prove what I say.
For instance, Mr. Linnen had picked up a paper with this account in
it regarding this story of Pratt's, and he and Mr. Warner were going
down in the car together
Representative Carter. How do you know?
Dr. Friedman. Mr. Warner told me.
Representative Carter. You just heard it, Mr. Friedman?
i)r. Friedman. I have personally observed these things.
The Chairman. Ihat is not testimony, what somebody else told
you. I have not objected to your repeating anything that you
know, but what somebody comes and teiis you
Dr. Friedman. Well, I have seen with my own eyes
The Chairman. You can tell what you have seen mth your own
eyes.
Dr. Friedman. I think if you would examine these employees,
gentlemen of this committee, you would find what I say would be
borne out. I mention that because that sort (>f thing is of great
importance. A thing like that in the Army would not be tolerated —
a man coming around, making an inspection, criticizing employees
before student-;, and finding fault with the emj)loyees before students.
The Chairman. Hov/ is it you can not get along with any of your
students and but few of your em]>loyees ?
Dr. Friedman. Wiiy, that is no! true, if you arc making the asser-
tion by asking the (juestion.
The Chairman. What is the slate of feeling of ihv ])uj)ils toward
vou ?
CARLISLE IXDIAX SCllUOi.. 1273
Dr. Friedman. 1 tliiiik, at present
The Chairman. I am not asking you what it was hist year.
Dr. Friedman. At present, from the agitation of certain employees^
there is a feeling of unrest.
The Chairman. What is the state of f( ehng of the em])h>yoes
toward you, as a ruh^ ?
Dr. Friedman. It has always been good.
The Chairman. What is it now, do you know?
Dr. Friedman. There has been a good deal of business going oii
here in the last few weeks; a lot of statements made that I am going
to be charged
The Chairman. You know whether the relation^hij) is cordial or
not. That is what I want to know. Are j^ou cm-dial toward them,
and the}" toward you ?
Dr. Friedman. My relations A\ith the employees have generally
been indorsed by thiMii.
The Chairman. How much did you have in the garden there last
year ? How much area did you have in the garden ?
Dr. Friedman. We had a little over 6 acres in the garden.
The Chairman. You did not have a garden sufficient to supply
the school with the necessary vegetables ?
Dr. Friedman. In addition to that we had 20 acres in jiotatoes.
We have been the last two years rai-ing enough potatoes.
The Chairman. How much jjotatoes did 3'ou raise last vear ?
Dr. Friedman. They raised 236 bushels on the first farm and 425
on the second farm. Last year was not a very good year.
The Chairman. That would make, all told, about 700 bushels.
Do you think 700 bushels
Dr. Friedman. Just a minute; excuse me a minute
Senator Lane. Take this year; take it right there in that spot.
You raised about 700 bushels of potatoes ?
Dr. Friedman. Yes.
Senator Lane. You raised really about 1,100 bushels.
Dr. Friedman. I must have read the figures wrong. The farmer
makes a report here. This is a report for the fiscal year 1913.
Representative Carter. Seven hundred bushels would not be
enough for the school, would it ?
Dr. Friedman. No.
The Chairman. That would be a little less than a bushel for each
pupil, would it not? How much do you figure it would take?
Dr. Friedman. They are not there a year. Senator. They are only
there from September to April, and they eat a lot of bread. Regard-
ing that food business, the students are on a ration. The Govern-
ment furnishes a ration, and you can not exceed it. We have to
account for the potatoes and everything we raise.
Senator Lane. And they say you must not feed them more ?
Dr. Friedman. No; you have to account for everything. Those
are taken up on the accounts.
In this connection I want to sa}^ to you, gentlemen, that 1 do not
get any vegetables or any stuff from the farm. My predecessors did,
but I continued it for a year or two, and every time there was any
difficulty with an employee that was one of the charges brought
against me, that 1 was eating Government food, and we get no
vegetables or milk or butter at all.
1274 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Inspector Lixnen. If the records show you do, then, they are
false, are they ?
Dr. Friedman. The records do not show we do.
The Chairman. Have you examined the records? I will state
this to 3^ou: I do not regard it as important, and did not intend to
call attention to it, but I saw two old reports made by the former
dair^^man, shomng a certain number of pounds of milk dehvered to
you on different occasions.
Dr. Friedman. There may have been some special occasion for
delivering that milk for students' use. We have had half a dozen
weddings in our house, and we have had 150 to 250 students there,
and they have been looked after.
The Chairman. Now, I want to ask you about the use of whisky
among the bovs in the school. Do they use much whisky ?
Dr. Friedman. I do not think they use anything like the amount
of whisky that white boys do.
The Chairman. Do you know how many boys were in the lockup
last night, each one having been sent there for using whisky %
Dr. Friedman. I understand there are some boys there.
The Chairman. How many?
Dr. Friedman. Something like six.
The Chairman. I underst'and there were seven.
Dr. Friedman. I did not understand they were charged with drink-
ing \shi';ky.
The Chairman. \Vliat were they in tliere for ?
Dr. Friedman. I did not understand they were aU there for dnnk-
ing whisky.
Tlie Chairman. Wlnit for?
Dr. Friedman. For difficulties in the grounds.
Senator Dane. If a boy is in the lockup don't you go to see him ?
Dr. Friedman. Yes, sir: ] go through the lockups. I generally go
thiough the lockups once a week, whether tliere are students there
or not. My interest in the lockup is shown by the fact that we had
a miserable old guardhouse, and we put up that new lockup.
Senator Lane. You have a nice, pretty lockup for them now?
Dr. Friedman. It is a lockup; it is for that purr.ose, Senator.
Senator Lane. Home like ?
Dr. Friedman. Why, you don't punish these students ^\-ith cor-
poral punishment. Wliat are you going to do mtli them?
Senator Lane. I thought you being the superintendent it would
be your duty, a kind of fatherly duty, to go down there and see what
the 3"0ung lellov/ was in for.
Dr. Friedman. I go down there. Senator, from time to time.
Whenever there is a very severe case of discipline it generally comes
to my attention.
Senator Lane. Wliat arc your duties, general supervision ?
Dr. Friedman. General supervision and keeping the conchtion of
the plant in good shai)e; h)ol<ing after the finances, the purchase of
supphes, the liandhng of al)Out $200,000 a yea-, supervision of the
work in the industrial de])artments, general supervision of the aca-
demic work, and geneial supervision of the liealth.
Senator Lane. And keepuig u]) the moral tone of the students?
Dr. Friedman. Yes, sir; I sjieak to the students continuously, and
1 see the students in my office when tliey have any difficulties of their
CARLISLE INDMN SCHOOL 1275
ov.n. I obtain em})lo3'ment for a great many of them on the outside.
J write a great many letters to former students, encouraging them.
I ^yrite from 6,0U0 to 7,000 letters a year to former students encour-
aging them in right methods of living.
Senator Lane. Do you check out through the quarters, down
through cook house, and here and tliere and everywhere?
Dr. Friedman. 1 am always around the grounds. I go through
the quarters.
Senator Lane. Do you examine the beds ?
Dr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. What kind of mattresses are you using there ?
Dr. Friedman. They are mattresses sent by the de})artment. Tliey
are not very good.
Senator Lane. Wliat are the}^ made of? Do 3^ou know?
Dr. Friedman. 1 do not know what they are com})0;3ed of.
Senator Lane. Did you ever cut one open ?
Dr. Friedman. I do not know what the material is.
Senator Lane. Did you ever lie on one ?
Dr. Friedman. They v.re not very good mattresses, Senator. They
are purchased by the department for the Indaiii schools in the service,
and they are sent there.
Senator Lane. And you accept them ?
Dr. Friedman. We can not help it.
Senator Lane. Can't you ask for a different sort?
Dr. Friedman. We have done that with a number of things. We
are taking that matter up mtli regard to coal.
Senator Lane. Let us hang on to the mattresses. When a mat-
tress gets hard and so it is very uncomfortable, do 3-ou remake it and
loosen it up ? Do you have a mattress shop ?
Dr. Friedman. We have no mattress shop.
Senator Lane. Do you work over your mattresses there ?
Dr. Friedman. We have no upholstery department.
Senator Lane. How long have they been there ?
Dr. Friedman. Six years.
Senator Lane. Well, if you staj^ there six years more they will be
hard as rocks.
Dr. Friedman. Thej are thrown out. Haven't you condemned a
few ?
Lispector Linnen. Some old double mattresses; not single mat-
tresses.
Dr. Friedman. That is the general method. It is not desirable
to keep mattresses in the school there year after year. How are you
going to clean them, Senator ?
Senator Lane. If they arc hair mattresses it is easy to steam them.
Dr. Friedman. How are we gomg to steam them We have no
steaming apparatus.
Senator Lane. Well, there are the hair dealers.
Dr. Friedman. The general feeling is, I thought, that when those
mattresses have been worn out a little bit they are to be replaced.
I am very thankful for that suggestion. Th"^at stuff is in there,
Senator.
Senator Lane. And they stay there until they are condemned?
Dr. Friedman. I'ntil they are cond<^mned.
Senator IjANE. And you never cut one ()])en?
1276 OAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Dr. Friedman. I have seen what was inside of them, but I do not
recall. We get all our supplies from the department. We formerly
purchased a good many of them, and we could select the material
with a great deal more care. For instance, our coal— we have always
purchased coal, and we have gotten good coal. This year the depart-
ment insisted upon the coal bcmg purchased away, and we have a
tremendous amount of coal there and it has not given satisfaction.
A great deal of our supplies in the way of dried fruit and other food
su])])lies are just beginnuig to come m, m the last month or six weeks —
half of the year gone by — breakfast food, for mstance. We have
sent letters and telegrams, and the suppUes are just commg in, and
half the year is gone. The students are there, and we have had to
substitute somethhig else.
The Chairman. I want to ask you about a boy who used to be a
pupil by the name of Yuda. Do you remember him ?
Dr. 1 RiEDMAN. Yes, I remember him very distinctly. He is more
negro than Indian.
The Chairman. He was a pupil there under you, was he ?
Dr. Friedman. He was a pupil there, and the question came up
with reference to his graduation last year, and he was finally allowed
to graduate because Mr. Whitwell strongly urged it against my own
better judgment and the better judgment of the senior teachers.
The Chairman. How did the question arise?
Dr. Friedman. He is a boy that is a very shrewd fellow. He had
been a janitor there in the school building. He had not been paying
much attention to his studies. He took advantage of his teachers,
and Mrs. Foster did not feel
The Chairman. It was a question whether he had mastered his
work sufnciently ?
Dr. Friedman. Yes. He v/as a janitor down in the school building,
and he had been in difficulty with boys — taking boys down tovrn. It
was claimed he had taken boys to bad houses there, and helped them
to get hquor. When he left there I furnished him transportation to
his home, and instead of staying there he came back, and he has been
a source of annoyance and trouble to the school ever since. He has
opened up a httle restaurant near the school there, encouraging the
boys in all kinds of evil business.
The Chairman. He was employed down there one time by a man
engaged in the ice cream business l
Dr. Friedman. Yes; I did everything I possibly could to get him
out of town. I told the man the kind of influence he was ha-\ang on
the students, and asked him to let Mm out, because Yuda had prom-
ised me when the transportation was furnished him to his home that
he would stay there. You can see the situation with all these In-
dian boys iiround the town — our girls going d( wn town every other
Saturday.
The Chairman. He is a kind of agitator any way, isn't he?
Dr. Friedman. Oh, he is a bird. I have seen a great many bo3^s —
I don't know whether it is darky blood or not, but he is one of the
shrewdest young chaps I have seen. He got the best of me on that;
I did not get him out of town. I have recently been trying to find
out w hether he has been disposing of hquor to boys, and I had a watch
])laced oil his store, and tlie man that was watching said he saw boys
CAELISLE TNDIAX SCHOOL. 1277
coming cnit \vith Ixittlod liquor, but could not prove they got it in
there.
Representative Stephens. Y\as there a young man that was a
telegrapher that you also ordered to leave the town ?
Dr. Feiedman. I do not recall any boy that was a telegrapher.
There was a boy down town who was married and gettino- alonf
nicely. I did not interfere vrith him. '^ ^
Representative Stephens. When (hd you abolish that department
of telegraph}' ?
Dr. Fried^ian. This year, for this reason
Representative Stephens. You still give it in your catalo^'-ue
don't 3'ou ? ^ J ^ ;
Dr. Friedman. We do not ]>rint the catalogue every year.
Representative Stephens. Wasn't it abolished last year ^
Dr. Friedman. No; it was abolished at the end of last year, and we
have not printed a catalogue for more than a year.
Representative Stephens. You have no photography department
here ?
Dr. Friedman. No photography.
Representative Stephens. You have a building?
Dr. Friedman. That building was put up before I came, and was
for art work and photography. There were no facilities for teaching
photography, and it was being used more or less as a loafing place,
and my plans are to remodel the building and use it for teaching the
girls cooking.
Representative Stephens. You eliminated also Indian art?
Dr. Friedman. That was done bv direction of the department — the
Indian Office.
Representative Stephens. Since when was that order issued ?
Dr. Friedman. Some years ago they asked me about the abolish-
ment of the two positions occupied by Mr. and Mrs. Dietz. I told
them I thought they were an asset to the school and I did not think
the positions ought to be al)olished.
Rei)resentative Stephens. How about the harness dei)artment?
Dr. Friedman. The harness department was abolished for this
reason: Harness is not now made by hand: it is generallv made by
machinery. They had Ix^en having 30 or 40 boys there; the harness
was cut out for them, and they were sewing up harness, and when I
looked mlo their future careers they were not following u]) the harness,
trade. So that was coml)ined with the shoemaking.
Representative Stephens. Don't your catalogue show also that
you have a horticultural department ?
Dr. Friedman. Well, that has reference to the florist's work and
work of that character.
_ Representative Stephens. Is there anything of that kind tauo-ht
m this school ? . ^ t>
Dr. Imjiedman. We have a greenhouse. We have a man who is a
German and a very competent man.
Reprc^sentative Carter. He is a gardener, too, is he not ?
Dr. Friedman. He is a gardener, too. In this greenhouse they
start these cabbage plants and various plants for the garden during
the sj^rmg months, and then thev set them out when the pr(»i)(T time
comes.
1278 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
About the catalogue, Congressman, we have no facilities for printing
a new catalogue every year, and the last one that was printed was
some time in 1911.
Ilepresentative Stephens. But your report shows you have a de-
partment of telegrai^h}- there. •
Dr. Friedman. The telegraph department was abolished the be-
ginning of this 3^ear, or the latter part of last year, and for tliis reason:
There was no way of keeping tab on the boys. The man who was
giving instruction in telegraphy was employed most of the time in
the office, and he was not giving any supervision to the boys. So it
was found best, on account of the small number of boys taking up that
work, to abolish it.
The Chairman. Do you know how many liogs have boon sold from
the farm during this year 1
Dr. Friedman. I could not tell jou tlie exact figures. There has
been a recent sale of a number of them. I presume from $1,000 to
S2,000 worth of hogs have been sold each year.
The Chairman. Do jou know how many have been consumed by
the school ?
Dr. Friedman. A good many of them. And I spoke to the quarter-
master about killing the hogs, and he said that on a previous occasion
th(\y killed a good many of those hogs and fed the stu(U>nts this meat
and there was a breaking out of some skin disease.
The Chairman. He was afraid to feed them pork ?
Dr. Friedman. Ye-;; that is, too much.
The Chairman. As a matter c^f fact, there have hevn enly seven
liogs killed there this year for the use of the students ?
Dr. Friedman. The records will show.
Senator Lane. But you would not have to kill thiMVi all at one
time ?
Dr. Friedman. No.
The Chairman. vYhy would it not l)e a good ]dan f
Dr. Friedman. That is his. idea. Mr. Kensler has been in the
work for year-;. He is a very competent man, and takes a personal
interest in the students. Why, gentlemen, to look at those students —
you hear so much about this food — look those students over. Do
they look like they are starved ? Do they look like they are not
taken care of?
I want to tell you about this food. Since thi- food business has
been started — why, they kicked about the food there in the club
where the empl(;yees have their own club. I was at <me of the biggest
hotels in the country not long ago and a bunch of four men sitting
at the table next to me said, "The food is rotten." Just the other
day one of the students complained about there not being aii}^ food on
the table. The dining-room matron, recollecting some of this agita-
tion, went up and said, "I know there was meat on this table, because
I saw it put on there, and if you girls don't find that, I am going to send-
for the matron." And they got down under the table and dug
it out.
The Chairman. Of course, each pujul should be provided wdth a
cii]) and knife and fork and the necessary utensils. Did 3^ou know
there were many instances there of two or more juipils using the
same uten.-ils and quarreling about it?
Dr. Friedman. 1 pr(>sn!ne that hns hvon v(M-y current just recently.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1279
Thc: Chairman. When anyone goes into the <huiii^- i-.-oni and sees
those things and knows that the table is not supplied, it is not (piite
an answer to say that those things have been very current (Juite
recently.
Dr. Friedman. 1 will tell you what the matron t'-'ld n\v. She
-:dd it was a very difficult .matter to keep knives and f:;rk^ (Mi those
iables. The students take them to their rooms. In one room she
found a large number of knives and forks stuck away in the corner,
and napkin, that had been taken out. We are supplied with :> cer-
tain amount of that material.
The Chairman. Of course, some of them get lost and broktMi, l)ut
v.hen a man sits dov/n to a table under ordinary condition-; he ought
to have a knife and fork and spoon.
Dr. Friedman. I am sorry I have not spoken to the matron about
that. Mr. Ridentmr reports to me that students have l)een taking a
lot of th'vse things away ..ince this matter came up. I havc^ been
thn ugh the dining hall myself. I have had the doctor go over there
and eat his meals over there, and I have had a meal over there.
Senator Lane. Do you go regularly and inspect the meals ?
Dr. Friedman. There is hardly a dav I do not go over there.
Senator Lane. At mealtime ?
Dr. Friedman. Sometimes when they are eating.
Senator Lane. To inspect the food ?
Dr. Friedman. Yes.
Senator Lane. And the rations that are issued ?
Dr. Friedman. I get a report every morning as to the amount of
food issued to the students, just what the amount was in the morning,
afternoon, or evening, and the amounts of food that have been used
each day. We can not exceed that allowance. I have exceeded the
allowance of bread the last two quarters, and an exception will be
made to my accounts, and I will be responsible.
The Chairman. When were you last in the dining room and had a
meal there ?
Dr. Friedman. It has been some time ago; I could not tell you.
The Chairman. Now, how lon^ ago ? You said three or four times, •
Dr. Friedman. It has been witliin the last year or two.
The Chairman. Is that as definite as you can make a statement ?
Dr. Friedman. I do not eat veiy many meals over there, I am frank
to tell you. There is no necessity for that. I go over there right
along- go over there to that dining hall.
To show you my interest in the work in that department, several
years ago when there was a change in the cook there, we had a lady
cook who was not a very good cook. I took the matter up especially
with the department and asked them to increase the salary of cooks
so that we could get a good man, and we have gotten a man since that
time.
The Chairman. What are the sanitary conditions in and around
the bakery ?
_ Dr. Friedman. Generally they are pretty good. I have a badly
situated bakery. It is down in the basement, antl the contUtions of
light are not entirely suitable. The onlv complaint I have had to
make about the bakery is that it is situated there under that ])orch,
and there is a lot of that dirt flying in under that porch, jind fiv-
1280 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
quently I havo had to speak to the baker about having old clothing
hanging around.
The Chairman. All right, Doctor. We are very much obliged to
you.
(Thereupon, at 1 o'clock a. m., Sunday, February 8, 1914, the com-
mission stood adjourned.)
sunday, february 8, 1914.
Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs,
Carlisle, Pa.
The commission met at 9.40 o'clock a. m.
Present: Senators Robinson (chairman) and Lane; Representa-
tives Stephens and Carter.
TESTIMONY OF MISS LELAH BURNS.
The witness was duly sworn by Senator Lane.
Sanator Lane. What do you do ?
Miss Burns. I am a teacher.
Senator Lane. At Carlisle ?
Miss Burns. At Carlisle.
Senator Lane. What do you know about conditions there ? How
long have you been there ?
Miss Burns. I have been there two years and five months.
Senator Lane. In what department ?
Miss Burns. I have been teaching ever since I came.
Senator Lane. I know, but
Miss Burns. The academic department.
Senator Lane. What type of students do you have? Are they
young students or older girls ?
Miss Burns. The grade, you know, makes no difference in the age
■ of the students.
Senator Lane. What grade is it?
Miss Burns. The beginning of the fourth grade. Some of my stu-
dents are young and some are old.
Senator' Lane. Where were you employed before 3^ou went to that
school ?
Miss Burns. As a public-school teacher in West Pittston. I taught
public schools 12 years before I was employed in the Indian Stnwice.
Senator Lane. 'Wliat are the conditions out there in the way of
advancement of pupils ? Are they bright, or how is that ?
Miss Burns. Mainlv the children are bright. As far as the advance-
ment of their work is "concerned I would say that they compare verv
favorably with the public school. In public school I taught the fifth
grade, first primary, and the third, and these children seem to me to
be just about on apar with the ])ublic scliools of this city.
Senator Lane. About the average of children elsewhere ?
Miss Burns. Yes, sir; they impress me as being very little different
from white children.
Senator Lane. Have you been around through the administrative
part of the institution ?
CABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1281
Miss Burns. During my vacation I worked in the ofHco one sum-
mer, and I have worked in the dining room as dining-room matron.
Senator Lane. Hosv long ago was" that?
Miss Burns. Last sumuKn- 1 worked as dining-room matron. The
summer before that I worked as dining-room matron for three or four
w^eeks and then went in the office for the rest of the summer. I have
also worked in the printing shop in the summer time.
Senator Lane. Now, then, you are pretty tolerably familiar with
conditions there, you think, do you ?
Miss Burns. Well, I am familiar with those that have come under
my immediate notice.
Senator Lane. What is your opinion about the school? Is it in
good condition, everything going along harmoniousl}^ to the benefit of
the Indians and in the manner it should?
Miss Burns. That is rather a broad question.
Senator Lane. Well, in a general way. Does it seem to be pros-
perous and doing its full duty by the Indians as wards of the Govern-
ment ? Is everything harmonious out there between the teachers and
the pupils — the administration and the pupils?
Miss Burns. I have never discovered any tiling mharmonious
between the teachers and pupils.
Senator Lane. Well, say between the superintendent and the
pupils. Are they at peace?
Miss Burns. As far as I know, they are.
Senator Lane. Everytliing, then, is all right?
Miss Burns. Everything that has come under my personal obser-
vation has been pleasant and agreeable.
Senator Lane. WTiat do you know about the institution which we
ought to know, representing the Government, in an attempt to have
it managed proj^erly, that would be of use to us ?
Miss Burns. I tell you, I can answer definite questions better than
that. I am perfectly walling to answer any question you ask me,
but I do not know that I know exactly how to answer anytliing as
broad as that.
Senator Lane. You are in the academic department, and I guess w^e
have made no investigation of that at all.
Miss Burns. That is the department I know more about.
Senator Lane, llien we will take up that line. We did not have
an opportunity, as you know — we came late Friday, and I guess
school will not begin again until Monday morning. The children,
you tliink, are advancing to about the same extent the}^ would in
public schools ?
Miss Burns. Generally speaking. Of course, some students are
more industrious than others.
Senator Lane. And they are receiving the instruction that is given
to the children of ordinary private citizens at public school, are
they?
Miss Burns. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. What line of work do you use ? The course that is
used in the pubHc schools ?
Miss Burns. We have our course of study that they have developed
for us, and in addition we are trying to follow the orders that come
from Washington, and try to adapt om-sclves as far as j)ossible to
35601— FT 11—14 21
1282 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
the State course of study. As I know it, that State course of study
is very excellent and could scarcely be improved upon.
Senator Lane. How many children do you have under your care ?
Miss Burns. Forty-nine.
Senator Lane. Is that enough or too many?
Miss Burns. That is quite enough. Forty-nine, perhaps, would
make an ideal school.
Senator Lane. Are you able to do justice to that man}^?
Miss Burns. I think so.
Senator Lane. Do you have much individual work to do vnth
them ?
Miss Burns. Just as any school-teacher would have.
Senator Lane. Individual work is that which counts the most, is
it not?
Miss Burns. It certainly is.
Senator Lane. And can a person properly attend to 49, giving
them individual attention, even in the public school or anywhere
else? Do you think they can?
Miss Burns. I think 40 is considered the ideal school.
Representative Stephens. Who is the immediate principal of
your department of the school.
Miss Burns. Mr. Whit well.
Representative Stephens. Have you been under him during the
two and a half years you have been in the school ?
Miss Burns. I have.
Representative vStephens. Do you know the conditions existing
between nim and the teachers under him? Is it harmonious?
Miss Burns. It has impressed me that there are really two sets of
conditions in the academic building.
Representative Stephens. What do you mean by that?
Miss Burns. I mean there are some teachers who seem to be very
friendly with Mr. Whitwell, and who seem to consider that his word
is law, and there are others who do not seem to receive the same
amount of consideration.
Representative Stephens. Then do these people appeal to the
superintendent of the school over Dr. Friedman — the ones chat do
not give Mr. Whitwell consideration?
Miss Burns. I think I am misunderstood. I meant Mr. Whitwell
did not give them consideration. I do not know of any teacher who
has appealed to Dr. Friedman except after she has appealed to Mr.
Whitwell. I never appealed to Dr. Friedman personally except
once, and I had already appealed to Mr. Whitwell personally in the
teachers' meeting, and I thought it my duty to appeal to Mr. Dr.
Friedman.
Re])resentative Stephens. Over Mr. Whitwell ?
Miss Burns. Yes.
Representative Stephens. How long ago was that ?
Miss Burns. That was this fall, when we instituted the "study
hour," and I was appointed to take the girls from the school building
to the girls' quarters at 8 o'clock eacl) evening, and I found in taking
these companies of girls over there that the girls were very willing
and obedient and very easily managed. The officers took charge of
them in the halls and were willing to really assume the charge of them
on the way from the academic building to the girls' quarters. But I
I
I
I
CARLISLE IKDLA.N- SCHOOL. 1283
discovered that there were two girls going alone from the school
building to the hospital each evening. I reported it the first evenint'
and Mr. Whitwell told me he would look into it. I went back the
next day, because I thought it was a matter that could not stand
even an hour, and Mr. Whitwell said lie could not afford to bother
with the hospital.
The next night the two girls went over alone, and there was one
boy went. So I went for tlie boy^I called an officer from Mr. Whit-
well s office, and I sent an officer for tlie boy, who proved to be the
janitor of the hospital, and held him there until the girls had time
to go. The next morning I spoke to Mr. Whitwell about it agam
and told him I would speak to Dr. Friedman about it, and I did so
and the matter was attended to immediately. '
Representative Stephens. And that engendered some feeling
between you and Mr. Wliitwell, did it? ^
Miss Burns. No; none whatever.
Representative Stephens. What did Dr. Friedman do then in
regard to the matter?
Miss Burns. When I spoke to him that morning he asked me
whether I had spoken to my own superior officer about it. I told him
that I had, and also that I was going to speak to Mr. Friedman about
It, and that Mr. Whitwell seemed to think that he had no authority in
the matter. Mr. Friedman told me he would attend to it imme-
diately, and while I was there he sent an orderly to call the matron to
the office I am not positive, but I think the girls were told to do
their studying m the hospital in charge of the nurse instead of comino-
to the study hour. As far as I know, that is the only exception that
has ever been made.
Representative Stephens. Do you know anything about the state
of feeling between Mr. Whitwell and Mr. Friedman at the present
time ? '■
Miss Burns. I know very httle from direct observation. Of course,
it IS a matter of common gossip, which one does not want to swear to'
that the feeling is not pleasant between them. I have heard Mr!
V\ hitwell make derogatory remarks and shrug his shoulders and smile
in a sort of way in his own office when Mr. Friedman was mentioned
or some order received or something of that sort.
Representative Stephens. What is the state of feeling, then, be-
tween the body of students and Mr. Friedman, the superintendent «
Is it good or bad ?
Miss Burns. That I know very little about from personal observa-
tion.
Representative Stephens. Those under you, you know.
Miss Burns. Those under me I know to a certain extent. I have
made it a rule to teach my students the subjects I am required to
teach them, and to tell them I am their friend, and to help them.
Aside from that I should never encourage them in gossiping to me.
1 do know, however, that last week one of iAie boys told me ho felt Mr.
J^riedman had not given him a square deal. When I pressed him for
an answer he seemed to be lacking an answer. I don't know why. I
asked him if it was something directly personal with him, and he said
It was not. 1 never have encouraged the children to gossip to me
about conditions on the campus.
1284 CARLISLE INDIAN" SCHOOL.
Representative Stephens. Then, thej do not respect the superin-
tendent as they should — the students ?
Miss Burns. No; I do not think they do.
Representative Stephens. Do you think this young man was right
in speaking of the superintendent so ?
Miss Burns. No; I do not.
Representative Stephens. How many others joined him in
making such statements ?
Miss Burns. None, to my knowledge.
Representative Stephens. Is he the only one you have heard com-
plain of the school ?
Miss Burns. The only one coming directly to me.
Representative Stephens. Do you hear any complaints about
what they have to eat, or whether they have enough ?
Miss Burns. No; I do not know that I hear anything that I could
call direct evidence. Of course, I have often heard children say that
their "grub" was not good, or something along that line. They told
me they had fish last Friday morning that made them sick.
Representative Stephens. Did you ever hear complaints about
their not getting enough bread ?
Miss Burns. Well, that is a common complaint. As I told you, I
worked in the dining room, and it was my duty as dining-room
matron to see that supplies were made to last and to take care of
them, and in order to do that I insisted upon it that the bread should
be eaten— that the bread that was cut should be eaten before more
was placed upon the tables. I was there in the summer time, but in
the summer time the meals are really very good, because we have
garden vegetables.
Senator Lane. Do you have as many students ?
Miss Burns. Not as many; no, sir.
Senator Lane. Do you have plenty of furnishings for the table in
the way of knives, forks, spoons, etc. ?
Miss Burns. When I was there we were short on spoons, and I
reported that and received 1 dozen. I was told that when the
regular dining-room matron came back she would find the spoons.
Senator Lane. You were short of spoons enough to set the table
properly ?
Miss Burns. Yes. Of course, the attendance was not as large as
during the year.
Senator Lane. How many would there be there?
Miss Burns. I have forgotten the exact number, but it would per-
haps be anywhere from 100 to 150. I was there when the country
party came back, and we had 50. When the dining-room matron
went on her vacation she put away the surplus silverware and left
enough for all that might be there; but the dining-room girls — helpers
we call them — told me the girls had carried spoons to the quarters and
had not brought them back, and that I found was true.
Senator Lane. If they would carry them away and never return
them, what would you do ? Go without spoons '(
Miss Burns. That is a condition I never met. I hardly believe so,
though.
Senator Lane. Was the food supply ample, you say, and good?
Miss Burns. Very good in the summer time. We have the garden
vegetables, and their meat supply was good. There was one day
I
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1285
,that the large boys complained that the meat was sHghtly decomposed,
and I spoke to the cook about it antl told him to hold that meat. The
quartermaster came and looked at it and returned the entire con-
signment to the butcher. From that time until I left the meat supply
was all right.
I would like to say that I do not like you to think that there is any
?ersonal feeling between me and ]Mr. Whitwell, because the matter
spoke of was a business matter pure and simple, and I conducted
it as such and have regarded it as such ever since.
TESTIMONY OF MISS ADELAIDE B. REICHEI.
The witness was duly sworn by Senator Lane.
Senator Lane. How long have you been connected with the
Carlisle school ?
Miss Reichel. I came in August, 1907 ; almost six and a half years.
I taught two years in the public schools in the northwestern part of
Penns3dvania.
Senator Lane. What do you know about the institution ?
Miss Reichel. Well, I think I know quite a good deal; but I would
rather you would ask me questions first, and if there is anything that
you have not thought of
Senator Lane. Are you under the suj>ervision of Mr. Whitwell?
Miss Reichel. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. What grade do you teach?
Miss Reichel. I teach the four upper grades in history, civics, and
spelling, and I have special charge of the freshman class in room IL
Senator Lane. How do you find the students, comparing the
Indians w4th the whites ?
Miss Reichel. I think it is scarcely a fair comparison, because some
of the Indian students have not always spoken English. I think as
far as mental abilities are concerned they are about the same.
Senator Lane. ^Ir. WTiitwell and you get along nicely, do you ?
Miss Reichel. We always have.
Senator Lane. You have respect for him as a teacher?
Miss Reichel. As a man.
Senator Lane. Do you fail to respect him as a teacher?
Miss Reichel, Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. For what reason ?
Miss Reichel. Well, I have a number of specific reasons that have
come under my own notice — and this is nothing personal. There is no
personal feeling.
Senator Lane. I want to ask you before you go further, is it in
relation to his ability as a teacher^
Miss Reichel. His work in general. In the first place I do not
think, Senator Lane, that Mr. Whitwidl is loyal to the superintendent.
The reason I say that is because in public assemblies, such as the
chapel exercises, he has said things that could not be considered as
anything except as disloyal to the superintendent. The teachers
could notice it and the students could notice it. I do not think it is
right for an employee to criticize any other employee in the presence
of the students, lie has also made disloyal remarks in the teachei-s'
meetings, when the teachers were all assembled. I do not know —
I can not swear
Senator Lane. "WHiat did he sav?
1286 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
. Miss Reichel. Things being carried over his head, and not havings
any say about this sort of thing. I think it is largely because he has
not asserted himself as principal teacher in his school. I think Dr.
Friedman has been very just. I can not say he has made disloyal
remarks to the students personally, but this I do know, that the
attitude of students who go into that office changes in an indefinable
way. There is a difference in their feeling toward Dr. Friedman.
So far as you can feel it, there is a subtle influence
Senator Lane. Do you think he says something or does something
that prejudices them against him?
Miss Reichel. I think so. Here is another thing. There are
cases of boys — I can mention five boys who have worked in Mr.
Wliitwell's office as janitors who did not have enough to do to keep
them busy — and these boys have practically gone out of Carlisle dis-
graced— those who did go — not because he had a bad influence, but
simply because they did not have anything to do. You know this,
that idleness will breed almost anything. These boys were Montre-
ville Yuda, for one; Benedict Cloud, for another; Joseph Loudbear,
for another. The teachers, one after another, put in protests against
keeping that boy in the office. Augustine Knox is another. Louis
Schweigman is another. Those are definite instances of boj^s who
certainly have not gained by staying in there.
Senator Lane. Were they good boys before they went in there ?
Miss Reiciiel. So far as I know, Joseph Loudbear has never borne
a good reputation, and he should never have been put in the school
building w^here the girls come back and forth.
Senator Lane. Who would detail him there ?
Miss Reichel. I do not know.
Senator Lane. \^^iose duty would it be ?
Miss Reichel. The disciplinarian usually details his boys, but he
usually sends them v\'here they are asked for.
Senator Lane. Has Mr. Whitwell ever had them detailed to his
service without having ri-quested them ?
Miss Reichel. Yes; but if he had requested them to be taken out
they would have. Those are instances. Here is another thing:
Mr. Whitwell, so far as I know, is a good man and all that; I have
nothing personal against him, but he does not use good English, for
one thing. Expressions such as "I have wrote" and ''I will learn
him" are common. He is at the head of the academic department in
a great school. These things are excusable in some people, but not in
the principal teacher of a school like that.
Another thing that has happened to me — this is personal, but I do
not have a personal feeling in regard to it — I have gone into Mr.
Wliitwell's office and had him tell me, ''Oh, you are crazy; get out
of this." I understand it was in fun, but it is not dignified. Those
are little things, perhaps, but I think tiiey go to show
Senator Lane. That the school is not being managed properly?
Miss Reichel. J do not think it is l)eing managed properly. 1 have
nothing personal whatever against Mr. WhitweJl.
Here is anoth(>r thing: I have been in Carlisle six and a lialf years,
and (hu'ing that time, to my recollection, Mr. Whitwell has never con-
ducted a recitation in my room. He has never been present in my
room to hear an entire recitation. So far as my work as teacher is
concerned, I do not know how he can judge it.
CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1287
Senator Lane. He has not gone through and checked the work you
have done ?
Miss Reichel. He has not. When the study hour m the school
buildings was resumed this fall, after having been discontinued for
six years, the order came that the teachers should be on duty in their
recitation rooms. He was to go in every evening and note just the
work that was done. I do not think he has been through a dozen
times. I have not kept a record, of course. When I am there, I
carry out his orders; but I do not go around the campus trying to
locate the principal teacher.
Senator Lane. Do you think the efficiency of his department is not
being kept up at as high a standard as it should be?
Miss Reichel. I know it.
Senator Lane. It is deteriorating?
Miss Reichel. I do not see how it could help it.
Senator Lane. Has he been there as long as you have ?
Miss Reichel. Yes; he came shortly before I did.
Senator Lane. You have had no chance to compare his work
Miss Reichel. No, sir; I have not. I compare him with school
superintendents I have known on the outside.
Representative Stephens. Are the matron and the young lady
pupils in harmony ?
^liss Reichel. I think some of them dislike her, and yet I have
heard others say they did not.
Representative Stephens. What is your feeling toward her ?
Miss Reichel. My opinion is that she is absolutely just. I think
she treats all the gii'ls alike. I think she is a conscientious woman.
I think perhaps her manner is misunderstood by the girls, but I do
not think we can overestimate the difficulties that she faced when
she came in there.
Representative Stephens. Do the girls go to her and consult with
her as they would a mother ?
Miss Reichel. I can not say as to that; I do not know.
Representative Stephens. It seems to be a fact that they do not
do that; that they are afraid of her.
Miss Reichel. A great many of those girls won't go to any of us.
I have tried to make plain to all of them that I am first their friend
and then their teacher, and yet few of them come to me for anything.
Representative Stephens. Do you think there is any difference in
teachers and matrons in that regard ?
Miss Reichel. I think it would really be easier for a teacher than
it would be for a matron, simply because a teacher has to do with a
smaller number. She only comes in contact with a smaller number
of pupils, and naturally is in more personal touch with them.
Re])resentative Stephens. Wliat is the feeling between the matron
and Mr. Friedman ?
Miss Reichel. I think she is very loyal.
Representative Stephens. How is it between her and Mr. ^Tiit-
well?
Miss Reichel. I think she is loyal to hini.
Re])resentative Stephens. Is there not a bad state of feeling, in
fact, between a good many of the employees of the school and the
head of the school ?
1288 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Miss Reichel. I think there is a great deal of disloyalty there. I
think the disloyalty on the part of the employees has caused all this
trouble. There are employees there — I can not swear to this, but
it is a matter of common talk that there are employees on the campus
who will speak of the superintendent as "Mose." I never allow any
of the students — I can not swear to that, but that is a matter of
common talk.
Representative Stephens. Why do they call him "Mose" ?
Miss Reichel. That is his name, but it implies a lack of proper
respect, and I think it is caused by disloyalty among the employees.
I think that is the root of the whole thing. If I could not be loyal
to the superintendent I would have the decency to get out.
Representative Stephens. Then there must be quite a difference
between the pupils and the superintendent ?
Miss Reichel. I do not know that there is. Those are just a few
instances that I have heard.
Representative Stephens. Have you ever heard him jeered as he
was passmg around the quarters 1
Senator Lane. Have you ever heard of its being done ?
Miss Reichel. I have heard of its being done, but I could not say
that it is true.
Senator Lane. I want to ask you young ladies if you were requested
to come here ?
Miss Reichel. No, sir; we came of our own free will.
•Senator Lane. Were you ?
Miss Burns. No; I was not.
Senator Lane. Was it suggested that it would be a good idea for
you to come?
Miss Burns. No.
Senator Lane. Wliat was the motive ?
Miss Burns. I supposed that the committee wanted to see me. I
knew that employees were gomg over to the Y. M. C. A. hall all day
yesterday, talking to the committee.
Senator Lane. They sent for those; they were all subpoenaed, and
you are the first voluntary witnesses.
Miss Reichel. There has been no suggestion. We came volun-
tarily.
Miss Burns. When I came down last evening I wondered why
the committee had not sent for me. When I came I was told that I
was to hold myself in readiness to speak if the committee wanted to
hear me. And I stand perfectly willing to answer anything I am
asked.
Miss Reichel. I understand that before we signified our ^villing-
ness to come down somebody phoned for us, and Mrs. Warner came
to the gymnasium for us, and we signified our v/illingness to testify;
so while they sent for us last night, it was not a case of anyone else
asking us.
There is one more thing I would like to mention. It is a pecuhar
state of affairs to me, and I would like to bring it to your notice.
I am not accusing anybody. Perhaj^s it has been brought to your
notice with variations that there is a little trouble about girls meeting
boys. Two of the boys in my school were involved in this matter, so
I know whereof I speak. The boys were put in confinement in the
guardhouse and the girls were put in confinement in the rooms they
CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1289
have for that purpose. If I am not mistaken, one of the boys by the
name of Irvin Sherman was released from punishment on Friday, the
day of the officers' reception. That evening Irvin Sherman danced
vnth two of the girls and those girls concerned in this all'air were not
present. The fidloM ing night was a Saturday night and they had a
reception, and the other boys who were in this same affair came over
there. One of the boys, who was reaUy the worst of the whole lot
and who had made remarks injuring the reputation of one of the girls
very.severel)^, came in and spent quite a Uttle bit of the evening
dancing with that same girl, and he has since been at two dances, and
he has spent a good deal of time dancing mth the sister of that girl.
That was a queer state of afl'airs.
Senator Lane. How do you account for that?
^ Miss Reichel. The boys are not being punished as severely as the
girls.
Senator Lane. Whose fault is that ?
Miss Reichel. I do not know.
Representative Stephens. What remedy would you suggest?
Mss Reichel. Punish the boys the same as the girls are pun-
ished, or even more severely.
Representative Stephens. Who is guilty of that discrimimation
against the girls ?
Miss Reichel. I do not know. I think the girls are being pun-
ished as hard as they should be.
Senator Lane. Would not the superintendent be the one really to
correct them ?
Miss Reichel. I do not think so. I think the disciplinarians are
placed there for the purpose of administering punishment. I do not
think the superintendent lays down this punishment.
Senator Lane. Assuming they do not administer it equally, then
it is the duty of the superintendent to see that they do ?
Miss Reichel. In case it is reported to him.
Senator Lane. Does he not know of this ?
Miss Reichel. I do not know wdiether he does or not. That is
outside of my province, and I feel a hesitancy about interfering vdth
other people's pusiness.
Senator Lane. Do you think it is harmful to the welfare of the
institution ?
Mss Reichel. Certainly I do. It is placing the boys where they
can get into trouble and get out in a few days, and the girls have to
suffer.
Senator Lane. It is an injury to the institution ?
Miss Reichel. Certainly.
Senator Lane. Then, if it were an injury to the institution and the
superintendent had no means of finding it out and you had the infor-
mation, would it not be your duty as a loyal assistent to him to
inform him ?
Miss Reichel. I suppose it would. I suppose in a wav it is a re-
flection upon any cmployiM^, but still we do not know just how far
that has gone, what st<ps have b(H'n taken.
Senator Lane. If you have adopted the cours<> of letting those
things go, and other employ* es do the same, would not tlie su])erin-
tend<nt after a while g( t into a lamentable condition where he could
not d(>fend himseK ?
1290 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Miss Reichel. I do not know. Of coiirs(^, this is an unusual
case
Senator Lane. If ther(> are those things being done, and that is the
esprit do corps you have there, is not that detrimental, and oughtn't
you to be cooperating?
Miss Reichel. We ought to be.
Miss Burns. I have just thought of a case of disciplim that I think
would be a good thing to tell. I'spoke of Mr. Whitw^ll as h' ad of the
school. This is one case I was concerned in, an^l, so far as I know,
no one else. It never was settled to my satisfaction.
Th'TO was a boy at the school by the name of Leo White. Ho
boarded at the school, and attended Conway Plall. I r' ported to Mr.
Whitwell that thi« boy met a girl outside of the school building — in
broad daylight, of course, but he stayed there 10 minutes and met
her. Mr. WhitwcU sent for the girl, and she denied it, and the boy
denied it. I saw th'-m meet, and I was positive that I v/as reporting
the truth when I r< ported it, and I ft It it was my duty to tcU it. Mr.
Whitwell told h'^r that shf^ should not deny it, because it had b<M n told
by one of the teach- rs, and that they were seen to meet, and it would
do no good to dc^ny what was absolutely true.
Wli' n h^ call d up the boy th'^ boy d< nied it, and h'^ was allowed to
go. That boy afterwards told one of thn < mployees he would lik(^ to
meet th'^ teacher that told about that. Miss Wilson was the on(^ that
was talking to him, and in talking to her afterwards I told her I was
perfectly wilHng to meet the boy. Then the two girls from the busi-
ness department that did Mr. Whitwell's office work went to these
students, or at least to the girl — I am not positive they went to the
boy — anel told them Miss Burns had reported them. I was never
called into the matter.
The same thing occurred again, and I called Miss Wilson, and she
saw them mee t. She was a personal friend of Leo White's and he told
her it was'not so. After he hael denied it, she told him she had seen it,
and then I called Mr. Whitwell. I really felt it lowered my pro-
fessional dignity to allow a boy to say that I told what v/as not so.
The girl was finally suspended, not for any immorality, but for general
disob'^dience and impertinence. Leo White seemed to be^ a sort of
will-o'-the-wisp. He attended Conway Hall. We were having les-
sons at one time, and for some reason he was at lib<"rty, and the order
cam'> around that the boys, in charg'' of the large boys' elisciplinarian —
that is, the boys in my room — should go out to rid th'> campus of
dandelions. So I released the boys, and I had four or five girls left in
my room. So I spoke te) Mr. McKean and a«ked him what part of the
campus the boys were going to work on. He told me, and I said that
the day was very warm, and suggested that I take another part of
the campus and have th*" girls out. Mr. McKcan said, "Very well."
So we s( nt to th" kitchen for knives, and went out back e)f the teach-
ers' quarters and started to cut th^S':> dand' lions. Th- y were be-
coming ripe and were irally a m(>nace to the lawn. I took the girls
right })ack e)f my own eiuartcrs. The elay was < xtreni'^ly warm, and
very soon one of the girls cani'^ to me and said, "Miss Burns, Leo
Whit(^ is sitting up th'Tc on a lawii mowr, and he is making motions
anel signalling elown h^n , and we elon't like Mm."
So I took them back into one of those courts out of his line of vision,
and then I noticed that as the girls went from the school building to
CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1291
the girls' quarters, this Loo White sitting on the Lawn mower kept
passing remarks to them. Some of the girls flung their he ads and
acted rather insulted about it. One started to stop, and I just
motioned to her and she went on.
Then I started over to the school building to report to Mr. Whitwell,
and, of course, I suppose I was rather excit( d. I went into his office,
and Augustine Knox was in there. Rather quickly I told him that
Leo White was sittmg out there and annoying the girls that were
being excused from the school building to the'girls' quarters. Mr.
Whitwell said, "We have enough to do to attend to our own depart-
ment." I said, "This is our own department. When the girls are
being excused from school to quarters a boy sits there annoying
them." He said, "Give me a particular instance. Don't come in
here chewing the rag unless you know what you are talking about."
I said, "Just stand here by the window an d"^ look, and you will get
your particular instance." Just on the spur of the moment I said,
"Here comes a girl down the stairs now. You look and you will see
that-that fellow will annoy her as she passes." So Mr. Whitwell and
Augustine and I stepped to the window, and, sure enough, Leo spoke
to her. Augustine coughed, and Leo was notified that somebody
was watching him, and the girl passed by. Mr. Whitwell said, "We
can not be annoyed by things of that sort. We have to attend to
our own affairs." I became indignant about it. I said, "If that is
the way you feel about it, I certainly shall not belittle myself by
reporting things to you." So I went back to my girls, and in the
meantime a telephone message had come to the superintendent's
office to Miss Ridenour to get out of her office and take care of the
girls on the campus and send the boy back to the boys' quarters.
When I spoke to the girls about "it they said that this fellow had
been whistling and hollering at them. It was a lazy combination:
A lawn mower, a mule, and a boy, and a hot summer day. He had
a sort of smooth, suave manner, and no matter what I said about it
he said it was not so, and I really did not enjoy having my students
belittle me in that way.
Senator Lane. What are the moral conditions out at the school ?
Miss Burns. That is another thing that I know nothing about at
first hand.
Senator Lane. We need not enter into it, then.
Miss Burns. I hear things, of course. I never have seen boys meet
girls except in this instance.
Then in regard to Augustine Knox. Augustine came over to Mr.
Whitwell's oHice as janitor, and he was a nuisance. He knew more
than any teacher, and he bossed the teachers. He would walk into
our rooms in front of our students and order us to do things. I had
to order him to take his hat off one day.
I have charge of that line going back at the quiet hour, and it has
been rather a worry. There has ni ver been anything happened
during that march that I have been able to discover, and the girls
have been agreeable, but it has been a worry, because the responsi-
bility, I feel, is rather great. Durhig the first part of the year I was
rather annoyed at boys who would step from th(^ rooms out to the
porches and watch th(^ girls go by. I reported that to Mr. Whitwell
the first evening, and he said that we could not have that. He told
me to remind him of that the next mornuig, and he sent a note
1292 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
saying that the teachers must keep the boys in the rooms until the
girls are at their own quarters. That has been done ever since.
Then I complained to him about Augustine. I said, "Augustine
comes out into tliis hall, and he feels it his bounden duty to be pleasant
and pass the time of day with every girl that he can speak to." I
knew of nothing wrong that he said, but it was a breach of discipline
and an annoyance, and he would step back into the office and watch
the companies go. I reported that to Mr. Wliitwell, aiul he sort of
laughed at it. I reported it again, and Augustine was there, and he
said, "The teachers are cranks," which may be tiiie. Then at the
teachers' meeting I reported it and said to Mr. Whitwell, "I simply
can not have Augustine in your office when the girls are going, or if
he is in your office he must stay in there and close the door." I would
see that one uniform here and there, and, so far as I knew, there might
be dozens of boys in those halls. There is one main hall, with a cross
hall halfway down. Augustine would dart about, here, there, and
everywhere. At the teachers' meeting he said, "Well, we will have
to get rid of Augustine; he is getting girl struck," which was 'tiaie.
The next day Augustine was still there, and he was rather impertinent
about the quiet hour. And Augustine remained for two or thi-ee
weeks.
Representative Stephens. Don't you think that the most of your
trouble arises from the fact that you have coeducation there, and it is
hard to keep the boys and girls separate ? The troubles of both you
ladies seem to be along those lines. Don't you think it would be for
the good of the community to make this either a girls' school or boys'
school ?
Miss Burns. 1 have thought of that myself. I think we are rather
sensitive on that subject of the boys and girls meeting, because we
feel we have to be eternally vigilant along just that fine.
(Thereupon, at 10.30 o'clock a. m., the committee stood adjourned.)
WEDNESDAY, MARCH 25, 1914.
Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. C.
The joint commission met in its office, room 128, in the Senate
Office Building, at 10 o'clock, a. m.
Present: Senators Robinson (chairman), Lane, and Townsend;
Representatives Stephens and Carter.
TESTIMONY OF S. J. NORI, CHIEF CLERK.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
Th(^ Chairman. What is your full name ?
Mr. NoRi. S. J. Nori.
Th{^ Chairman. You are the chief clerk of the Carlisle Indian School,
Mr. Nori 'i
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. m
The Chairman. How long have you served in that grade? f
Mr. Nori. Why, since, I guess it was, the last part of Maj. Mercer's
administration — 1907, up until the present time, I should say.
A
CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1293
The Chairman. You are an Indian?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What tribe do you belong to?
Mr. NoRi. To the Pueblo Tribes of New Mexico.
The Chairman. Were you employed in the Indian Service before
you became chief clerk at Carlisle?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir; I was chief clerk since September, 1900.
The Chairman. About what salary do you receive?
Mr. NoRi. I received when I first entered $660, and now I am
receiving §1,300.
The Chairman. As chief clerk, what are yom* duties, Mr. Nori ?
Senator Lane. If I may interruj^t. does that include subsistence?
Mr. Nori. No; just payment of bills.
Senator Lane. Your salary of SI, 300, does that include board and
lodging ?
Mr. Nori. No, sir.
The Chairman. What are your duties as chief clerk and how are
they defined ?
Mr. Nori. I pay all Government bills — aU bills coming under the
head of administrative aff au's.
The Chairman. What other bills are there besides Government
bills or bills coming under the head of administrative affairs ?
Mr. Nori. Bills of a miscellaneous character, which are not appro-
priated by the Government at times, according to the direction of
the supermtendent.
The Chairman. Have you any other duties besides the payment
of biUs, and do j^ou keep vouchers to cover them?
;Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How do you keep your vouchers and what records
or books do you keep to show what payments you make ?
Mr. Nori. For the vouchers covering payments on Government
affairs, I use the prescribed form — regulations that are involved in
Government transactions.
The Chairman. Do you keep a ledger or book of accounts ?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir; cash books, shomng receipts and disburse-
ments.
The Chairman. Do you keep separate accounts as to the different
classes of funds ?
Mr. Nori. They are all in one book, each having a different head
of a different appropriation and different designations.
The Chairman. Wtrnt is the "class 4" fund and what does it
comprise ?
Mr. Nori. "Class 4" fund comprises funds that are received from
various sources, such as subscriptions to the paper, any products
of the school from the manufacture of articles in the various depart-
ments, products of the farm, or anything that may be manufactured
in the school.
The Chairman. That is, when the school manufactures any product
or the farm produces any product that is sold, the proceeds of that
sale go into "class 4 "?
IVIr. Nori, Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And those funds are paid to you and you keep the
account; is that correct?
1294 CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. NoRi. I receive it from different sources — from the party wlio
sells these things, and it is brought up to me.
The Chairman. Do the regulations contemplate that all the pro-
ceeds of funds that are to go into "class 4 " at that school should come
into your hands ?
Mr. NoRi. Most generally all come to me.
The Chairman. I know. Has anyone besides you the right to
retain those funds ?
Mr. NoRi. No, sir; I do not think so.'
The Chairman. You keep the vouchers on the regular blank forms
prescribed by the Government ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The C^HAiRMAN. Have you those vouchers now ?
Mr. NoRi. No, sir; they are on file, I presume. There are copies
made — two copies are sent to the C^ommissioner of Indian Affairs
and one copy of the voucher is retained for our file.
The Chairman. Have you destroyed any of the vouchers that you
made in the handling of this "class 4" fund?
Mr. NoRi. "Class 4" funds?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. NoRi.'No, sir.
The Chairman. Have you destroyed any vouchers that you took
there ?
Mr. NoRi. No, sir; I have destroyed some receipts that are not in — -
on the Government vouchers; and I have changed some vouchers that
are Government.
The Chairman. Why did you do that?
Mr. NoRi. By intimation and admonishment of Friedman.
The Chairman. You mean Supt. Friedman of the Carlisle School ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. When was it that he first intimated to you that
these vouchers should be destroyed or changed ?
Mr. NoRi. It was soon after he had received a letter from the
Commissioner of Indian Affairs regarding the athletic fund.
The Chairman. Was it before or after the joint commission was
over at Carlisle ?
Mr. NoRi. It was before.
The Chairman. Do you know about how long before ?
Mr. NoRi. Well, I could not say very well. I just know there was
a letter received from the office relative to the athletic account, i ;;^
The Chairman. Do you know whether or not Mr. Linnen, the
inspector, had been over there before Mr. Friedman fu'st told you to
destroy or change those vouchers ?
Mr. NoRi. I did not quite catch that, Senator.
The Chairman. Do you know whether or not Mr. Linnen, the
inspector, had been to Carlisle before Mr. Friedman told you to
destroy or change those vouchers.
Mr. NoRi. Well, he told me before and after.
The Chairman. Before and after ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What I am trying to do is to locate as nearly as
possible the first time that he told you to destroy those vouchers.
vScnator Townsend. Will vou just ask him what he means by
"intinuition?"
CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1295
The Chairman. I am goin^ to in just a minute, when I get the
time iixecl.
Can you give me a little more definitely the fu'st time that he
gave 5-0U those instructions ?
]\lr. NoKi. Well, the first time that he gave me those intimations
was, as 1 stated, soon after he had received a letter, and it seemed
that he had received word from Mr. Abbott, I believe— of course I
do not know but— telling him that he should ihx up his accounts as
he thought they would be investigated. Then he came to me and
said, "If the accounts are not all right, you better fix them up " and
that was soon after he had received a letter. And then, from time
to time, he asked me if the accounts were all right, and I told him
the accounts had gone in, and there can not be nothing done to
them, and I guess it was— when Mr. Linnen arrived he then asked
me again about these records, intimating that they ought to be fijced
up; and after he left— after Mr. Linnen left— then he told me that
Vi!^ n ^^*^^" *^^^"^ ^^i^' because you will be imi)licated."
Ihe Chairman. Wliere were you when he made that statement to
you ?
Mr. NoRi. I was in his house alone with him.
Tlie Chairman. What time was it, as near as you can state ?
Mr. Nori. I took some papers over to him about 1 or 2 o'clock in
the afternoon.
The Chairman. How did you happen to go over there ?
Mr. Nori. I had to take some papers for his signature.
The Chairman. You say that he had received a letter or word
from Mr. Abbott ?
Mr. Nori. He had intimated so.
The Chairman. Who had mtimatetl so ?
Mr. Nori. Mr. Friedman.
The Chairman. Mr. Friedman ?
Mr. Nori. Yes.
Senator Townsend. Wliat do you mean by ''mtimated," so that
we may judge?
Senator Lane. You said Abbott ?
Mr. Nori. Abbott.
The Chairman. You say that he had had a letter from Abbott
stating that the accounts were not all right and that they had better
be fLxed up. Now, what did Mr. Friedman say?
Mr. Nori. He does not du-ectly say anything. He just say "I
beheve they will; I understand they are going to go over our accounts;
you better fix them up. I have reasons to believe that they will be."'
The Chairman. Did lie say what reasons he had to believe that «
Mr. Nori. No, sir.
The Chairman. How did you get the impression that he had had
word from Abbott ?
Mr. Nori. Well, it was — it was a topic of conversation.
The Chairman. What ?
Mr. Nori. It was a topic of conversation.
The Chairman. Yes; but when I asked you specifically what he
said to you, you did not even mention Mr. Abbott's name. What
1 want to know is how you cou])le Abbott with his statement. What
was It he said about Mr. Abl)ott that led you to believe that Mr.
Abbott had sent liim that word ?
1296 OABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
!Mr. NoRi. Well, he just said he received a communication.
The Chairman. From Mr. Abbott ?
Mr. NoRi. From Mr. Abbott.
The Chairman. You, of course, did not see the communication?
Mr. NoRi. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you remember about when that was that he
said he had a communication from Mr. Abbott?
Mr. NoRi. Why, I should judge, about two weeks after the office
letter came.
The Chairman. After the office letter came?
Mr. NoRi. Regarding the athletic association.
The Chairman. That was a letter from the Commissioner of Indian
Affairs regarding the athletic fund ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you see that letter?
Mr. NoRi. No, sir; I do not believe— I beUeve I did — I am not
certain; but I think it was held by Mr. Friedman and Mr. Warner,
so I do not recall.
The Chairman. When was the last time you talked with Mr. Fried-
man about these vouchers which you destroyed and changed ?
Mr. NoRi. Well, it was about three or four days before Mr. Linnen
came back the second time.
The Chairman. Between the time that the joint commission was at
Carlisle and Mr. Linnen's second trip there, was it ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Where were you when that conversation occurred?
Mr. NoRi. We were talking on the walk — in my office there for a
while.
The Chairman. What did he say to you then about the vouchers?
Mr. NoRi. He said they ought to be fixed up, and he inferred he
wanted me to destroy any evidence there was in connection with them.
The Chairman. Why did you infer from that statement that he
wanted you to destroy everything in connection with them?
Mr. NoRi. I do not suppose he wants to bear the responsibility of it.
The Chairman. Do you know whether or not he knew the vouchers
and receipts were not right ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Hov/ do you know that?
Mr. NoRi. Because he instructed me to make those.
The Chairman. He instructed you to make false vouchers? .
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What was the character of those false vouchers and
receipts that he instructed you to make?
Mr. NoRi. Well, in regard to the transportation, especially during
the years 190S, 1909, and 1910. There was a regulation prohibiting
sohciting of puj)ils, in a general way, and there was times when jnipils
had to pay their transportation home on account of them not being
tliere the whole length of time —for instance, if they wanted to visit
home. Now, in order to get pubhcity of the school, he intimated, or,
he said, that he had on understanding with these pupils that they
should interest themselves in behalf of the school, or in some way to
help along the cause of the school, either by gathering pupils or escort-
ing them, he would refund their transportation money that they had
deposited. These— when the tickets; the tickets are all charged to
I
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1297
the school, and when tlie— when the bills are presented, Meyer, the
clerk, designated on each one just how they were to be paid and
whether from personal funds or Government funds. Then those that
were marked ''personal" I took over to Mr. Miller, the financial clerk
who has charge of the individual Indian monevs, and secured froni
him the funds. These moneys received and bills I tak(^ into Mr
Friedman; then he designates anv that he has an understandino- with
regardino- solicitation of pupils. These are held out. Their tickets
are j^aid by the Government; but these are held jjending tlieir return
or whatever— if they have escorted a pupil or if they have inter-
ested themselves for the school; that is a matter between him and
the pupil, no doubt. In that time there accumulated quite a sum
Tlie Chairman. How much ?
Mr. NoRi. I should judge between $500 or $600 and some cents.
The^CHAiRMAN. What was done with the $500 or $600 accumu-
lated funds, vouchers for which were held out in the wav vou have
stated? "^ -^
Mr. NoRi. When Mr. McLaughlin, the inspector, came there in
1911, I believe— or 1910 or 1911, I don't just remember— to investi-
gate certain irregularities regarding his pay roll, Mr. Friedman asked
me lor the statement of these funds, which is kept in sort of a slip-
shape, showing each of the pupils with the amounts and the tickets
^. ^ , r y^^y used— a statement, I presume, he may want to show to
Mr. McLaughlin.
The Chairman. If you do not know what he did with it, you need
not state. Go ahead and tell what you did.
Mr. NoRi. I made the statement and gave it to him, with the
money, in an envelope.
The Chairman. Gave it to whom ?
Mr. Nori. Gave it to Mr. Friedman.
The Chairman. Wliere had this $500 or $600 that you have
described been kept prior to your giving it to Mr. Friedman «
Mr. Nori. In the safe.
The Chairman. You say it was in an envelope?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know what he did with that $500 or $600 ?
Mr. Nori. I do not know what he did with it.
The Chairman. Did lie ever return it to you ?
Mr. Nori. No, sir; I imagine he disposed of it as it was intended.
I he Chairman. You imagine, but you do not know. What
became of the vouchers that related to this $500 or $600 ?
Mr. Nori. Thej^ were vouchered previously.
The Chairman. That fund had alreadv been vouchered — credit
had been taken with the Government, but the money had been held
m the safe there m an enveloi)e and was finally paid over by you to
Friedman? i ./ j
Mr. Nori. Turned over to him.
The Chairman. Sir?
Mr. Nori. Turned over to him.
Senator Lane. Is that the regular procedure and the i)ropei
thing to do? ^
Mr. Nori. That is a matter I can not question— the superintend-
ent— I do not think it is proper.
35601— PT 11—14 22
1298 CABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, you knew it was not proper ?
Mr. NoRi. I do not think it was.
The Chairman. You knew that when the voucher of any person
was taken for money that the money should go to that person ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How long had that fund been in the safe before
you deUvered it to Mr. Friedman ?
Mr. NoRi. Of course, it accumulated from time to time — from
1908 to 1910.
The Chairman. Do you know of any cases where the Government
fund was charged with the transportation of pupils for trips that
they never made ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How much of that class of funds was there, and
how was it handled ? Just explain that as you did the other.
Mr. NoRi. In that respect, for instance, if a boy or a person had
interested himself, that is, for the school, it was— whatever it was,
the amount that he had incurred or supposed to have incurred, was
made up in a ticket form and charged to the Government.
The Chairman. His voucher was taken or a voucher was taken
for transportation which was not used, in order to pay him for some-
thing else ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do j^ou know what ho was supposed to have
done
Mr. NoRi. To receive the money?
The Chairman (continuing). To receive any money at all?
Mr. NoRi. He should have presented a traveling expense voucher.
The Chairman. A what ?
Mr. NoRi. He should have presented a travehng expense voucher
against the Government.
The Chairman. Did he do that ?
Mr. NoRi. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did the Government actually pay those items
of money that you have referred to on tickets and transportation
that was not actually used, and who got the money ?
Mr. NoRi. You mean
The Chairman. I mean this: When a voucher was taken for a
ticket for, say, John Smith, from Carlisle, Pa., for instance, to some
point in Idaho, and he never made the trip at all, was the money
actually paid out on the voucher?
Mr. NoRi. No, sir.
The Chairman. What was done with it ?
Mr. NoRi. It was placed in that envelope.
The Chairman. In which envelope ?
Mr. NoRi. Mr. Friedman's.
The Chairman. In the envelope that was fhially deUvered to Mr.
Friedman?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did the superintendent get credit for the Gov-
ernment voucher ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. In his accounts ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
CARLISLE INDMN SCHOOL. 1299
The Chairman. So that the method was, if I understand \'ou, to
draw money out of the fund on a voucher shomng that the pupil
had taken the trip at the Government expense ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The money drawn on that voucher was placed in
an envelope and kept in the safe ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sn\
The Chairman. Alons: ^^^th other funds similarly drawn «
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Until finally $500 or $600 had accumulated and
you dehvered it to Mr. Friedman in an envelope ?
Mr. Nori. Just a moment. In that respect, Senator, there were
ot course, other funds received, such as the sale of old iron, old bones'
oll^ags— which are not "class 4" money, you understand.
Ihe Chairman. What are they?
Mr. Nori "Class 1 " money, revertible to the Treasury Department,
which the disbursing officer can not receive any claim for disburse-
ment; that IS, it reverts back into the Treasury.
The Chairman. How much of that "class 1" money, coming from
the sources that you have just described, was received there that vou
know of ? "^
Mr. Nori. Oh, I should judge between— maybe about $300.
The Chairman. That should have gone mto the Treasury?
Mr. Nori. That should properly have gone mto the Treasury.
The Chairman. Did it go into the Treasury ?
Mr. Nori. Not unless he put it in without my knowledge.
The Chairman. Wliat did you do with it?
_ Mr. Nori. I gave it to Friedman, supposing he would dispose of
It, or, if he wanted to use it for some purpose, I would not be able to
state.
The Chairman. Since you have been there, have you ever paid
anything out of this "class 1" funds back into the Treasury? Have
you covered any part of the moneys received from such sources back
mto the Treasury?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. But there has been about $300 received from the
^^l^r^^i^"^^ ''^"^^ ^'^^^ ^"^ ®^^^M5 ii'O" that you paid over to Friedman?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you take anv receipt for that?
Mr. Nori. No, sir.
The Chairman. How did you come to pay it over to him?
Mr. Nori. I beheved he was responsible for it, and if he— I was
ms subordhiate — I could not very well
The Chairman. How did you\'ome to pay it over to him? Did
you just go and say to him, "Here, Mr. Friedman, is $271 that you
can take and use"?
Mr. Nori. He asked me for a statement of this ])articular fund, as
1 stated, and I made out the statement showhig in detail all these
transactions, debit and credit, and he said he wanted— he would like
to have it, and that is all there was to it.
The Chairman. He asked vou then for the fund ?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Wliat is your usual custom of turning this fund
over into the Treasury— do you turn it in or does he turn it hi ?
1300 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. NoRi. The custom ?
Senator Lane. What is the custom or the habit? Do you turn
these moneys over to him, funds fiom "class 1," or do you turn them
over to the Government, as a rule ?
Mr. NoRi. I take them to him first.
The Chairman. What do the regulations require?
Mr. NoRi. They should be turned into the
The Chairman. I know, but by whom?
Mr. NoRi. By the disbursing officer.
The Chairman. Who is the disbursing officer?
Mr. NoRi. Friedman.
The Chairman. The regulations require that he shall turn it into
the Treasury ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know how anv part of that approximately
$300 was used by him ?
Mr. NoRi. Well, I believe the purchase of stamps was one item,
the payment of affidavits under exceptions and various sundry
articles that may be used for the office or for purposes that he did not
want to go through the regular formality of securing authority for,
but how much of that I am unable to state.
The Chairman. Do you know of any sum, in addition to this ap-
proximately $300 to which you have referred, of the same class, that
was received by Friedman and used for a personal purpose ?
Mr. NoRi. I can not say.
The Chairman. Do you know of a fund of about $271 that was
paid out on the furniture ?
Mr. NoRi. That is from sale such as old iron, and so forth.
The Chairman. That is "Class 1 " funds, is it not?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right. What became of that $271, and how
was that handled? (After a pause.) Come along with it.
Mr. NoRi. That was paid out of that fund to buy some furniture
for Superintendent Friedman's house.
The Chairman. Why did you not tell me that a while ago, when
I first asked you ? Had you forgotten about it ?
(No response.)
The Chairman. Did you handle that fund ?
Mr. NoRi. No, sir — Kensler.
The Chairman. Kensler handled that?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Was that ever turned over to you?
Mr. NoRi. No, sir.
The Chairman. Were there other moneys besides those you have
described that were received from individual pupils that were paid
over to Friedman by you ?
^Ir. NoRi. At the end of every month this matter was always
taken up with the superintendent, and, as I say, he designates on
there which to hold back and the rest — the tickets were paid for —
what was held back was vouchorcd on the Government.
The Chairman. How did that happen to be done?
Mr. NoRi. What did you say?
The Chairman. How did that happen to be done, who caused it
to be done ?
I
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1301
Mr. NoRi. The superintendent.
The Chairman. \Yhat was done A\ath those moneys which were
vouehered aganist the Government by you ?
Mr. XoRi. It w<is turned over to Mr.'Friedinan.
Senator Lane. For my information, is not that the reouLir custom
for them ? ^ ^o^^J^ "ver to him, and do s he become responsible
Mr. NoRL Yes, sir; he is resf)on!-ible for them.
Senator Lane. Does this tUff r from any other transaction?
Mr. NoRi. No, sir.
Senator Lane. Are thi>sc false vouchers ?
Mr. NoRi. What did you say ?
Senator Lane. Are these false vouchers?
Mr NoRL Well, if he had an understanding with a pupil that he
would mterest hunself for the school
Senator Lane. That is against the regulations ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes. Then, he would voucher his ticket and hold the
money.
Th- Chairman You understand the pupil had already paid his
money ior the ticket and deposited it there ? ^ i
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
f 7^^.f ^-^^^^^^^?^\ S^ that that was drawn upon a voucher that was
lalse, it the pupd had aheadv paid his money «
Mr. XoRi. Yes.
The Chairman You said awhile ago there was a regulation against
soliciting pupils for the schools ? & s o
Mr. NoRi. Yes.
The Chairman. Was that a printed regulation?
Mr. NoRi. I believe it w.-is a printed regulation.
Senator Townsend. Who issued that regulation?
^ Mr. NoRi The clepartment; I think it is issued from the Commis-
sioner of Indian Affairs' office.
Senator Townsend. That is, they did not want the superintendent
to get any more pupils down there at the school ?
Mr. NoRi. Did not want them to solicit— did not want anybody to
go out and solicit— had to devise some other means. There was no
solicitation allowed ail over the service.
Mr. Carter. When was that regulation issued, Mr. Nod?
rfi- ^,^^^- -"-^ ^^^ during 1908 or 1909—1 can not recall.
I he Chairman. Do you recall about the total amount of money
claimed to have been paid over to Mr. Friedman on false vouchers «
Mr. ^oRI. Well, I should judge about $1,500, more or less.
ilie Chairman. Do you keep any account of it?
Mr. NoRi. No, sir.
The Chairman. ^What is the total amount of vouchers and receipts
that you destroyed since this investigation began ?
Mr. NoRi. I destroyed receipts that I had given to Mr. I^Iiller, the
banker. '
The Chairman. Where ditl you get them «
Mr. NoRi. I got them from Mr. Miller's office.
The Chairman. How (Hd you get them?
Mr. NoRi. I went in there and just took them.
1 he Chairman. What time was it when you got them?
Mr. i\oRi. One evening about 8 or 9 o'clock.
1302 CARLISLE INDMlSr SCHOOL.
The Chairman. Was he there?
Mr. NoRi. No, sh. m
The Chairman. He did not know you were getting them? ^
Mr. NoRi. No, sir.
The Chairman. How many times did you go there and take
receipts and vouchers for that purpose ?
Mr. NoRi. Twice.
The Chairman. Wlien was the last time ?
Mr. NoRi. The hist time was just before Mr. Linnen arrived on his
last trip.
The ChairivIan. Now, I want you to tell me as definitely as you
can what vouchers and receipts you took the first time from Mr.
Miller's ofHce.
Mr. NoRi. Well, I took the receipts that I thought would involve
the years of 1908, 1909, and 1910.
The Chairman. Keceipts for what ?
Mr. NoRi. Receipts for tickets that I had given to Mr. Miller.
The Chairman. Do you mean for the tickets covered by both '
accounts that you have referred to ? I
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. . i .
The Chairman. They were the false vouchers that you had issued
for those years ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Wliy did you take those for those particular years j
at that time ? Just explain that to me. 1
Mr. NoRi. Because it would involve that amount that was turned
over to Mr. Friedman.
The Chairman. At whose instance did you get those vouchers, and
what did you do with them ?
Mr. NoRi. At the instance of Mr. Friedman, and I burned them.
vSenator Townsend. What chd Mr. Friedman say to you about
those vouchers that caused you to go over there and get them ?
Mr. NoRi. He said, "You should destroy them," or "Destroy the
evidence."
Senator Townsend. Where did he tell you that i
Mr. NoRi. He told me that in a private conversation.
Senator Townsend. Wliere ? . • rr
Mr. NoRi. On the walks between his house and the office.
Senator Townsend. That was something more than an intimation;
that w^as a direct order to you to do that, was it not • _ , .
Mr. NoRi. He said it would involve me, and told me that the evi-
dence had better be destroyed; that is all.
The Chairman. Will you give, as nearly as you can, the exact Ijui-
guage that Friedman used, and what you said to Imn? Just give
the conversation in detail, as near as you can.
Mr NoRi He said, "Well, Mr. Nori, what have you done about
those vouchers that we spoke about?" "WeU," I said, "Mr. Fried-
man, there is really hardly anything worth while doing, because i
said' "the only thing that can hai)pen now is to— is to offset this
invcstigathig committee here, but," 1 said, "it won't change the
voucliers that are in the auditor's office." I said, "The oiffy thmg,
probably, would be to destroy the evidence." He says, "lou better
destroy the evidence, because," he says, "you are involved m it, and
you will be hable for it."
I
CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1303
The Chairman. How long was it after that before you went after
them ?
Mr. NoRi. Well, I guess it was three days after.
The Chairman. Was that before the joint commission visited
Carlisle ?
Mr. NoRi. No; that was after.
The Chairman. How long after? Fix the time as definitely as
you can.
Mr. Nori. About three days before Mr. Linnen arrived.
The Chairman. You mean the second time?
Mr. Nori. The last trip.
The Chairman. Then you got the false vouchers for the three
years you have s])oken about. What did you get the second time,
and how did you happen to go back?
Mr. Nori. Well, 1 went back and took those from there on, some
of them.
The Chairman. Why did you not get them all the first time?
What did you want to make two bites at it for?
Mr. Nori. I was more concerned — Friedman was more concerned
about that, as I thought that sum of $500 or $600
The Chairman. That was what you especially had in mind when
you first went down there ?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How did you come to change your mind, and
think that vou ought to get them all ?
Mr. Nor/. Well — -
The Chairman. Did he say anything to you about it after that
that caused you to think you had better go back and get some more ?
Mr. Nori. He told me, he said, "You are going to be liable for
anything that may be found — any irregularities."
The Chairman. Then, he did know
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
The Chairman (continuing). That you were going to get those
vouchers and receipts and destroy them ?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Was it after you got the first vouchers and receipts
that he told you or made the statement to you which you have just
quoted ?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That you were going to be liable?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. When did j^ou go back the second time to get the
additional vouchers and receipts ?
Mr. Nori. It was in the evening about 8 o'clock.
The Chairman. Can you tell what date it was?
Mr. Nori. I can nf)t say.
The Chairman. How long was it after that fu-st trip down there
to get the vouchers and recei])ts ?
Mr. Nori. About a week between, 1 guess.
The Chairman. About a week between?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Was Mr. Linnen in Carlisle at that time?
Mr. Nori. I don't recall; he was in and out so much — I am not
certain.
1304 CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. Now, what did you get the second trip you were
down there — what vouchers and receipts, please, sir ?
Mr. NoRi. The second trip ?
The Chairman. Yes.
^Ir. NoRi. Why, I just exphiined that I got the 1909—1908, 1909,
and 1910 receipts.
The Chairman. No; if I understood you correctly, you explained
that that was what you got the first time. Now, I have asked you
what you got the second time.
^ir. NoRi. The receipts thereafter.
The Chairman. Well, what were they, for what years ?
Mr. NoRi. For 1911 and 1912, I believe.
The Chairman. What was the character of those receipts — were
they for false vouchers, too ?
IVIr. NoRi. Not exactly; they were not for false vouchers, but
there might be some of them that might have been vouchered against
the Government.
The Chairman. How man)^, all told, did you get?
^1t. Nori. Oh, between 12 and 13, I imagine.
The Chairman. Where did you find them?
^Ii". Nori. In Miller's files and office.
The Chairman. Were they Government records filed there by
Miller ?
Mr. Nori. Well, I do not know whether you would call them Gov-
ernment records, but I imagine
The Chairman. You imagine they were?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
Tlie Chairman. What was the bulk of the papers that you got the
first time what sized volume was it?
Mr. Nori. They were just tabulated papers, that is, showing the
names of the pupils and the amounts they had deposited v/ith Miller
and turned over to me.
Senator Lane. I want to ask him a question right there. Did
you take a list of the names with you, so you would know which
vouchers to take back mth you ?
Mr. Nori. Did I take the 'list?
Senator Lane. You knew which ones you were going after, did you ?
Mr. Nori. I just imagined that the years would indicate just
Senator Lane. Did you take all that covered those years ?
]Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Were you familiar enough with that office to go
and pick those out without any trouble ?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. You knew where he kept them?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. All right.
The Chairman. There was no one there either time when you got
those papers ?
Mr Nori. No, sir.
The Chairman. You went secretly and you did not want anybody
to know it ? '
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
The Chairman What did you do with them after you got them?
Just tell wiiere you took them and what disposition you made of
them.
CARLISLE INDMN SCHOOL. 1305
Mr. NoRi. I took them to my house and put them in the stove.
The Chairman. You did not go over them with anybody^
Mr. NoRi. No, sir.
The Chairman. How many papers, all told, were there that you
destro^'ed in that way ?
Mr. NoRi. Well, all of tliose reccijjt.s — 12 or 13 of them.
The Chairman. About how many names were there on tliose
receipts, do you know?
Mr. Nori. Well—
The Chairman. What ?
Mr. Nori. It is pretty hard to tell— might be 200 or more or less.
The Chairman. W\ne any vouchers drawn among the list of those
destroyed that had not been approved by Friedman ?
Mr. Nori. Any vouchers drawn?
The Chairman. That had not been approved by him ?
Mr. Nori. Everything is approved by him.
The Chairman. Yes. Is there a place on the vouchers for his
approval in writing ?
Nori. No; he has to sign »
The Chairman. He has to sign them?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All of these vouchers that you destroyed were
signed by him ?
Mr. Nori. No; these are just receipts between Mr. Miller and
myself.
The Chairman. Receipts between Miller and yourself?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What have you to show that you did not got those
moneys and keep them ?
Mr. Nori. I have nothing to show.
Senator Lane. I want to ask him, right there, a question. Are
these receipts m triplicate or duplicate, and one set filed over here ?
Mr. Nori. No; it is just the receipts between myself and Miller.
Senator Lane. When you destroyed them ail evidence disappeared «
Mr. jNori. No, sir.
Senator Lane. Where is the rest of it ?
Mr. Nori. You see these vouchers and things are in the auditor's
office here.
Senator Lane. The auditor in Washington ?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Duplicates of these ?
Mr. Nori. One is kept by the Indian Affairs, I imagine, and the
other IS in the auditor's department.
Senator Lane. These receipts ?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Then your destroying them there would not
destroy the evidence still existing here ?
Mr. Nori. No, sir; it is only just to keep them out of the sight of
the investigating committee.
Senator Lane. At the school?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. Do you mean that you destroyed dupli-
cates or triplicates of the receipts that passed between vou and
Miller ?
1306 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. NoRi. No, sir; only one.
The Chairman. If the commission or its agent could not get the
receipts to show what boys had paid their transportation, for instance,
in advance, it would be very difficult to check it, would it not?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, su\
The Chairman. They could not check it ?
Mr. NoRi. Could not check it.
Tiie Chairman. Do you know anything about the accounts of the
superintendent for traveling expenses, and do you know whether
there is riny duplication in that or not?
Mr. NoRi. You mean his personal traveling expenses ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sn\
The Chairman. How was that handled?
Mr. NoRi. Well, if there were expenses that he had incurred for
travehng expense that he could not pass through the regular channel
of the Government voucher, why, he would utilize the athletic fund;
and then, for instance, he might get a m.ileage book — he would get the
mileage book, and ^Jien charge the mileage on account, and then the
athletic account would be charged for the mileage book, and the
Government would be charged for the milejsge used.
The Chairman. Do you know whether that was frequently prac-
ticed by him or not ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The athletic fund would })uy a mileage book, and
he would use that, and then v.'hen he made his account ns superin-
tendent, he would voucher that against the Government?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. So that it was paid twice in that way ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know about his trip to California ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How was that handled — the expense of it ?
Mr. NoRi. I thiid-c he got a sum of money from the athletic fund,
and it was my impression that he used some of this fund — about S150.
The Chairman. Some of which fund, do you mean?
Mr. NoRi. That he had in hand.
The Chairman. Do you know whether he vouchered the Govern-
ment for it?
Mr. NoRi. I think it all came on one voucher.
The Chairman. Did you know at the time you made those vouchers
for Friedman for his traveling expenses that they were false? m
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. " |
The Chairman. Did you ever say anything to him about it or call
his attention to it?
Mr. NoRi. I gave him — I say, I do not think it wi's pro]>er, ])ut he
would say, ''Oh, let it go; it will pass"; he says, "The athletic fund
is something that has nothing to do with Ihe Government, you
know."
The Chairman. He said the Govermnent had nothing to do with
the athletic fund?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Tlie Chairman. Were there many cases where vouchers were
presented there, where questions arose as to the right to charge them
against the .Government, where he insisted on passing them that way?
:1
CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1307
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That was frequently done ?
Mr. NoRi. Frequently.
The Chairman. What was the- class of expenditures covered by
those vouchers mostly ?
Mr. NoRi. For mstance, anytlmig he would like to get for his house,
such as curtains or rugs, etc., I g{>nerally sent down to Kensler the
quartermaster, for his (). K., and he would send them back, saying,
''I don't know anythmg about this — can not pass, because don't
know anything about it." So I would take it to Friedman and say,
"Kensler does not know anythuig about this; he does not want to
pass — does not want to O. K. it" "Well, just leave it here for me
for a while. I \\tI1 tlimk it over." Maybe a week or so, he ^vill say,
"Put this on Government voucher, and make it for fittuig up em-
ployees' c{uarters," whereas it was fitting up his own house, and if he
could not pass it then, it was charged to the atliletic fund.
The Chairman. He Ih'st sent it down to Kensler, and Kensler
would refuse to O. K. it because he knew it was not properly charge-
able agamst the Government ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, su\
The Chairman. And then Friedman would hold it awhile ?
^Ir. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And instruct that it be vouchered agamst the
' ovjrnment?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And charge it to fitting up employees' quarters,
and it was known it was for his own quarters ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Then, if that would not go, it would be charged
agamst the atliletic fund ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know anythmg about that typewriter
account ?
Mr. Nori. No, sir.
Senator Townsend. Have you ever had any trouble with Miller or
Friedman ?
Ml'. NoRi. I do not stand very well with either one of them.
Senator Townsend. Why ? "What is the trouble ?
^Ii". Nori. Well, Friedman has endeavored to have me removed
since these thmgs — he had an examination by the civil service insti-
gated, I believe; and then he has asked me to secure a transfer if
possible. I believe he wanted to get me away, so in case sometime
it would come up — and put the whole blame on me for these irregu-
larities.
Senator Townsend. You knew they were hregular all the time,
did you ?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. Why did you not complain about them ?
Mr. Nori. Well, I thought I was implicated m it, and I was doing
it for my own protection, in a way.
Senator Townsend. Did you get anything out of it ?
Mr. Nori. No, sir; not— not dhectly.
Senator Townsend. Well, indirectly, did you get anything?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
1308 CARLISLE INDL^N SCHOOL.
Senator Townsend. What did you get ?
Mr. NoRi. Used about SI 00 to pay for expenses of my wife when
she went out West.
Senator Townsend. What else ?
Mr. NoRi. Purchase of stamps and other material used for office.
Senator Townsend. What else did you get out of it ?
Mr. NoRi. That is all I can recall.
vSenator Townsend. Oh, you know whether you got an^^thing more
than that, don't you ?
Mr. NoRi. Oh, yes.
Senator Townsend. Did you not get anything besides that?
Mr. NoRi. No, sir.
Senator Townsend. You did not make any complaint to any
inspector when he came around there that Friedman was issuing
false vouchers or anything of that kind ?
Mr. NoRi. No, sir; because I knew that it would come in time.
Senator Townsend. What would come in time ?
Mr. NoRi. Any irregularities that may be found.
Senator Townsend. You knew you were causing those irregu-
larities, did 3^ou not ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. And yet he wan.ted to get rid of you after
that ?
Mr. NoRT. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. Did he tell you not to tell on him ?
Mr. NoRi. No; he did not say that.
Senator Townsend. He knew you would tell on him, did he not,
if he turned you off?
Mr. NoRi. I believe he would — he knows that.
Senator Townsend. You said at the start that he ''intimated"
he wanted you to do certain things. Did he ever tell you right out
and out to do certain things that were irregular?
Mr. NoRi. No — you mean as far as making accounts ?
Senator Townsend. Yes.
Mr. NoRi. No; he would ask me if I fixed them up — "Are they
fixed all right" — yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. What did you understand when he asked if
they were fixed all right ?
Mr. NoRi. Why, fixed the way he would like to have them passed
through.
Senator Townsend. He did not tell you, you say, about that —
how he wanted them fixed ?
Mr. NoRi. I do not just know what you have reference to.
Senator Townsend. He never told you how^ to fix them, did he ?
Mr. NoRi. Sometimes he did.
Senator Townsend. What did he tell you ? What did he say to
you about fixing them?
Mr. NoRi. Well, he would say, ''Fix them so they will pass,
according to regulations. Change the — change the bills, or change
the form to come within the prescribed way."
Senator Townsend. Did you make any such changes?
Mr. NoRL Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. You have not told us about that. What did
you cha.'ige ?
I
I
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1309
Mr. NoRi. Well, lots of things— I can not just recall.
Senator Townsend. Tell me about some things that you changed
to make it correspond to the regulations.
Mr. NoRi. Well, if there were 250 pounds of lead bought and we
had only authority for 200, why, that voucher was changed to read
200 and maybe another item placed there, too.
Senat^or Townsend. Another item placed to
Mr. NoRi. Yes; to make up the amount.
Senator Tow^nsend. What item would you substitute, for instance ?
Mr. NoRi. Something of a similar character.
The Chairman. Excuse me. You mean that an item that was not
purchased would be charged up to make up for that ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. Do you keep any stock account up there ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. Who does that ?
Mr. NoRi. Mr. Kensler.
Senator Lane. Mr. Kensler here ?
Senator Townsend. Does not your account have to correspond
with his — do you not check up against each other ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. Have you done that ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. Has he fixed his books to correspond with
yours, too ?
Mr. NoRi. Well, he has a book of his own there.
Senator Townsend. Well, has he fixed it ? Do you know whether
he has or not ?
Mr. NoRi. I do not know.
Senator Townsend. He would have to do it in order to make your
accounts come out all right, would he not ?
Mr. NoRi. I reckon so.
Senator Townsend. He would have to be a party to this corrup-
tion down there, whatever it was, just as you would?
]VIr. NoR[. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. How long has that been going on ?
Mr. NoRi. Ever since he [Friedman] has been there.
Senator Townsend. Since 1907?
Mr. NoRi. 1908.
Senator Townsend. Things have been going along in this way that
you have described all the time since then?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. Do you actually know whether this nnin
Friedman has liad any money and expended it for his own use that
he was not entitled to use ?
Mr. NoRi. No; I do not know personally, but from — he is very
adverse to pa.ying any bills of his own. That I know— h(^ will not
pay for anything if he can help it.
Senator Townsend. What bills, for instance, do vou refer to now?
Mr. NoRi. Bills that may be in a nature convertible to the Govern-
ment.
Senator Townsend. Do you know whether he has purchased any-
thing and charged it up to the Government for his o^\^l individual
use?
1310 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. NoRi. Well, he has purchased furniture.
Senator Townsend. You know that ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. Do you have to make an entry of that ?
Mr. NoRi. If it comes within my jurisdiction.
Senator Townsend. Well, did it come within your jurisdiction?
Mr. NoRi. It did not.
Senator Townsend. How ?
Mr. NoRi. It did not in one instance.
Senator Townsend. In any instance, now, did any item of that
kind come within your jurisdiction of which you made the entry ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. And you knew it was false at the tune you
made it ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. Has Friedman ever called your attention to
the fact that you were making false entries ?
Mr. NoRi. No, sir.
Senator Townsend. Did he teU you when he wanted your resigna-
tion that it was because you were
Senator Lane. Let me ask him a question there. Did you ever
call attention to the fact that you were maldng false entries ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. Did he say to you that that was one of the
reasons he wanted you to leave, because you had not been doing
things right ?
Mr. NoRi. No, sir.
Senator Townsend. This money you mention here, $500 or S600,
is the money that has been paid in by the students for transportation
purposes. Was it your business to turn this money over to Friedman ?
Air. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. That was a proper regulation to do that,
was it ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
vSenator Townsend. Who kept track of it after it went into his
hands ?
Mr. NoRi. If tickets are to be paid, I paid the tickets.
Senator Townsend. Is there any account kept of that on your
books after the money goes into his hands ?
Air. NoRi. No, sir.
Senator Townsend. How do you know that he has expended any
of that money improperly, then ?
Air. NoRi. I do not know. That is up to liim. I could not say
how he used it.
Senator Townsend. Tiiese receipts that you went over tiiere to
get from Air. Aldler — went into liis office wlien Aliller was away — did
Friedman tell you to go there and get these receipts ?
Air. NoRi. Yes, sir; intimated.
Senator Townsend. Tiiere was nobody interested in those receipts
except you and Aliller, was there ?
Air. NoRi. 1 and Aliller?
Senator Townsend. Yes; you and Aliller. You had given AliUer
the money and Aliller had given you the receipts ?
Air. NoRi. Yes, sir.
CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1311
Senator Townsend. Nobody else's name was on those receipts «
Mr. NoRi. No, sir. ^
Senator Townsend. Nobody else was connected with it in any
way? "^
Mr. NoRi. No, sir.
Senator Townsend. Why was Friedman interested in destroying
tna X V
Mr. NoRi. Well, I suppose— I imagined it was for that lump sum
of $500 or 1600. ^
Senator Townsend. But that had passed into your hands ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes; but that was handed over to him.
Senator Townsend. Did you get any receipt from Friedman when
you handed it to him ?
Mr. NoRi. No, SU-; he wanted the statement, and I just gave him
the statement and the money.
Senator Townsend. Did you not ever take a receipt from Friedman
when you turned money over to him ?
Mr.'NoRi. No, sir.
Senator Townsend. How were you going to protect yourself if
you were receiving large sums of money down there and took no
receipt for it from anybody ?
Mr. NoRi. I went only on the supposition that he was my superior,
and I could not ask him.
Senator Townsend. Did you give a bond ?
Mr. NoRi. No, sir.
Senator Townsend. Miller insisted on taking your receipt did he
not ? '
Mr. NoRi. No, sir.
Senator Townsend. When he paid you money, did you not receipt
to Miller ?
Mr. NoRi. Sometimes.
Senator Townsend. Those are the receipts you went over there to
to get to destroy?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. Do you mean to say that Miller ever received
any money fi"om you or ever paid any money to you that he did not
take any receipt for ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. "V\Tiat money ?
Mr. NoRi. This particular money — individual Indian money for
transportation.
Senator Townsend. That was first paid to Miller ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. And then turned over to you without anv
receipt? *^
Mr. NoRi. Sometimes.
Senator Townsend. And you turned it over to Friedman without
any receipt ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. How was it possible to check up what money
you received at that institution ?
Mr NoRi. Well, I do not know— pretty hard, I guess. If a man
would not take my receipt, he must have a record of his own.
1312 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOi..
Senator Townsend. Did you try to destroy anything but receipts ?
Mr. NoRi. Nothing but receipts.
Senator Townsend. You did not try to find his book record or
anything of that kind and destroy that?
Mr. NoRi. No, sir.
Senator Townsend. And Friedman told you to do that?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. How long ago was it that he told you to do
that ?
Mr. NoRi. Well, it was about three or four days before Mr. Linnen
was there.
Senator Townsend. Wliat did you mean when you started out
by saying that he "intimated," when you now say that he told you
to do certain things ?
Mr. NoRi. He had previously spoken about it — every now and
then intimated.
Senator Townsend. For some time had that been going on ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. He was worried about things, down there?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. Were you worried at any time?
Mr. NoRi. Certainly. He was so worried that he had me arrested,
because he knew
Senator Townsend. Wliat did he have you arrested for ?
Mr. NoRi. Well, I guess he thought maybe I had not destroyed
those papers — he thought I might have them in my house; and he
found out I had given testimony, and then he had me arrested for
taking papers.
Senator Townsend. Wliat papers ?
Mr. NoRi. These specific papers we are talking about.
Senator Townsend. When did he have you arrested?
Mr. NoRi. The day after I gave my testimony.
Senator Townsend. To whom ?
Mr. NoRi. To Mr. Linnen — had me arrested and placed in jail,
and then had a search warrant issued to search my house for those
papers.
Senator Townsend. He thought you had not destroyed them,
maybe ?
. Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir. He took a whole lot of my personal papers,
I presume he will use that ; I do not know.
Senator Townsend. What do you think he can use against you ?
Mr. NoRi. It is hard to tell; lie is liable to use anything.
Senator Townsend. Have you something there that you would
not like to have used against you ?
Mr. NoRi. Nothing at all; he can use whatever he wants.
The Chairman. Did he know when he had you arrested that you
had already destroyed these papers?
Mr. NoRi. I do not think he did, because he would not have had
me arrested and tried to get tliose pa])crs.
Senator Townsend. If he asked you to destroy those papers, what
do you suppose he wanted you arrested for in order to get them? m
Mr. NoRi. He thought maybe 1 did not destroy them. |
Senator Lane. That would be bringing the evidence to the light,
would it not?
CARLISLE IXDL\N SCHOOL. 1313
Mr. NoRi. Yes.
Senator Townsexd. He wanted those papers to convict himself
■with, did he?
Mr. XoRi. I do not know.
Senator Townsend. You say he wanted them destroyed because
they were damagmoj to him. Now, he arrested you and had a search
warrant issued for the purpose of fincUng those i)apers ?
The Chairman. That was not, Senator Townsend, until after he
had already given his testimony to Linnen.
Senator Townseisd. I recognize that.
The Chairman. That is argumentative, of course.
Senator Toavnsexd. Yes; that is argumentative, but what occurs
to me is that he must not have know^n you were going to get the
papers and destro}^ them ?
Mr. NoRi. He knew it all right.
The Chairman. He had you arrested before a justice of the peace,
did he not ?
Mr. XoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. He did not call it to the attention of the bureau or
the Department of Justice; he did not call you into Federal court
but had you arrested before a justice of the peace in CarUsle? '
Mr. XoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Had you already told him that vou had destroyed
these papers ?
Mr. XoRi. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. He must have filed a charge against him in order to
have had Mm arrested. Has tliis case been settled in court ?
Mr. XoRi. I have a hearing to-morrow at 10 o'clock.
Senator Lane. Are you out under bond ?
Mr. XoRi. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. How^ much ?
Mr. XoRi. SI, 000.
Senator Lane. What is the charge ?
Mr. XoRi. I can not remember. I think for abstracting papers and
embezzlement.
The Chairman. Mr. Nori, have the travehng expenses of pupils
who had already paid transportation been vouchered against the
Government and the money drawn from the Treasury when the money
had already been paid by the pupil ?
Mr. XoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. It had been paid by the pupil himself ?
Mr. XoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. As to the traveling expenses of Mr. Friedman him-
self, that you have referred to, that was vouchered against the Gov-
ernment in his accounts, as sui^erintendent, when, as a matter of fact,
he had traveled on mileage paid for out of the athletic fund ?
Mr. XoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Wlien you prepared these vouchers, did you know
they were false ?
Mr. XoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. At whose direction did you prepare them ?
Mr. XoRi. At the direction of Supt. Friedman.
35601— PT 11—14 23
1314 CAELISLE INDIAN" SCHOOL.
Senator Lane. Senator Robinson, right in there I want to ask him
this: You knew that he had been maldng false vouchers, putting in
double charges for his traveling expenses ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. How long have you known that ?
Mr. NoRi. Well, ever since 1908, along there.
Senator Lane. This commission was over there about six or eight
weeks ago, and you were a witness before the commission ?
Mr. NoRi. No, sir.
Senator Lane. You were not called ?
Mr. NoRi. No, sir.
The Chairman. No; he was not.
Senator Lane. All right.
The Chairman. I believe that is all, unless there are further cjues-
tions by members of the commission.
Representative Stephens. Who was the first one that you told
that you had destroyed these vouchers that you had got from Mil-
ler's ofHce ?
Mr. NoRi. I told Friedman.
Representative Stephens. Was that the time you went for the
second lot of vouchers ?
Mr. NoRi. That was the last time.
Representative Stephens. You did not tell him that you had gone
there first and got some of them and destroyed them ?
Mr. NoRi. I did not tell hun until I fuially destroyed them.
Representative Stephens. Until you finally destroyed them ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes.
R( presentative Stephens. Then when was it that you went back
after the second lot of vouchers, and why did you go back after the
second lot ?
Mr. NoRi. I went back because I thought — he had said I would
be responsible for them, and I went back again in the evening.
Representative Stephens. Who told you that you would be re-
sponsible ?
Mr. NoRi. Dr. Friedman.
Representative Stephens. Did he know at the time when he told
you that you would be responsible that you had already got some of
them and burned them ?
Mr. NoRi. No; I had not destroyed them then.
Representative Stephens. You had not destroyed them, but still
had tliem in your possession ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Did you tell him that you had them?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. That you had gone to the office and got
them ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. But that you had not got the last lot
of vouchers ?
Mr. NoRi. Receipts.
Representative Stephens. Receipts ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. And those are the ones that ho wanted
you to go back after ?
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1315
Mr. NoRi. He wanted me to oo for those receipts, I believe, of
190S, 1909, and 1910.
Representative Stephens. Did you do it?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sii*.
Representative Stephens. Tlien when you came back with these,
what did you do with them ? Did you burn them ?
Mr. NoRi. I burned all of them; ves, sir.
Representative Stephens. Those' and the first ones you brought
also, at the same time ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Then when did you tell him that you
had burned them ?
Mr. NoRi. I think it was the next day after I burned them.
Representative Stephens. What did he say about it?
Mr. NoRi. He did not say anything. He said, "All right." That
was all.
Senator Townsend. Will you let me ask a question right there?
Representative Stephens. Certainly.
Senator Townsend. These receipts vou destroyed were receipts for
money that you paid to Miller?
Mr. NoRi. No; they were receipts that I had given to Miller.
Senator Tow^nsend. For money that Miller had paid to you?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. You got no receipt from Friedman for
this $500 ?
Mr. NoRi. Xo, sir; I just turned it over to him.
Representative Stephens. What entry did you make on your
books vnih reference to that ?
Mr. NoRi. I did not make no entry, because we did not keep no
special book for it.
Representative Stephens. You did not keep any special book?
Mr. XoRi. We just kept it in an envelope, with a statement.
Representative Stephens. You turned over the statement, envel-
ope, and money and all to him ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. In the presence of anyone?
Mr. NoRi. No, sir; everything was done between him and I per-
sonally.
Representative Stephens, And no one else except you and Mr.
Friedman knew of that transaction ?
Mr. NoRi. No, sir.
Representative Stephens. Why did Friedman want you to leave
the school? You said that he wanted you to resign, transfer, or
something.
Mr. NoRi. I believe it was just on that — he might want
Senator Lane. I want to ask you a cjuestion.
Representative Stephens. You do not know, then?
Mr. NoRi. No, sir.
Senator Lane. Did Mr. ;Miller discover the absence of those papers
or how did the thing happen to get out ?
Mr. NoRi. Why, I beUeve the inspector discovered that.
Representative Stephens. You spoke about Friedman when he
first spoke to you about fixing up the accounts and said ho had
1316 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
received a letter of instructions from x\bbott. Did you see that
letter ?
Mr. NoRi. No, sir.
Representative Stephens. How did you know about that? Why
do you say that there was a letter ?
Mr. NoRi. Because I heard his name in connection with it.
Representative Stephens. In connection with what?
Mr. NoRi. To the effect that he had
Representative Stephens. How?
Mr. NoRi. He had a letter — to the effect that he had received a
letter from Mr. Abbott.
Representative Stephens. Wlio was Mr. Friedman telling that?
Mr. NoRi. I do not recall. 1 beheve it was just in a conversation
I overheard.
Representative Stephens. Oh, you overheard it ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes.
Representative Stephens. Wlio was he talking to ?
Mr. NoRi. I beheve ho was talking to Warner, the athletic man.
Representative ^Stephens. Wlio ?
Mr. NoRi. I beheve he was talking to Warner, the athletic man;
I think so ; I am not certain.
Representative Stephens. Wliere were you and where was Warner
and Friedman when you overheard that ?
Mr. NoRi. They were in their office, when I was in my own office
adjoining.
Representative Stephens. Was there a door open between you ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes.
Representative Stephens. State that conversation, as near as
you can.
Mr. NoRi. Well, they were talking about what was best to do —
I think, about the matter, and if I can recall, I heard him say some-
thing about a letter from Abbott, advising or telhng him— I could
not say the word — and then I heard the words "athletic account"
and "fixing up" — that word I heard — those are the words that I
heard.
Representative Stephens. Was that before or after he had given
you instructions to fix up your account— Friedman had given you
instructions ?
Mr. NoRi. That was before.
Representative Stephens. How long after that did he give you
those instructions about your books ?
Mr. NoRi. He spoke to me, I guess, about two or three days after-
wards, then. That is when it started.
Representative Stephens. That started the whole matter of fixing
the books ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. How many conversations did you over-
hear about that, about this investigation and about Abbott rec^uir-
ing it ? ^
Mr. NoRi. That is only the one time. ^
Representative Carter. Mr. Nori, were there vouchers destroyed
besides the receipts that passed between you and Miller ?
Mr. Nori. Vouchors ? No, sir.
i
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1317
Representative Carter. No other vouchers were dcstroved exceut
tlie receipts ? ^
Mr. NoRi. Except receipts.
Representative Carter. That passed between you and MiJler «
Mr. NoRi. No, sir.
Representative Carter. There were no vouchers destroyed that
iiad b riedman's name to them ?
Mr. NoRi. No vouchers that had his fii-st name were destroyed—
none whatever; just the receipts.
Representative Carter. First vou had destroyed the receipts from
1908 to 1910 ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. On your first trip, you secured those «
Mr. NoRi. 1 es, sir.
Representative Carter. Then, on the second trip you secured those
runnmg after 1910?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. When did Mr. Friedman come to CarHsle «
Mr. ^oRI. April, 1908.
Representiitive Carter. Can you teU us just about the time that
you heard of this letter Abbott had written— about the date«
Mr. Nori. I did not see the letter, Mr. Carter.
Representative Carter. I want to know about the time you over-
heard a conveTsation about a letter coming from Abbott to Friedman.
Mr. ^ORi. The letter from the ofRce came first, and they were
talking about it -discussing it, and I think the letter came subse-
quently, though just how long after, I do not know.
Representative Carter. Wliat letter was it came from the office «
Mr. Nori. Relative to the athletic fund.
Representative Carter. From what office?
Mr. Nori. From the Indian Affairs.
Representative Carter. From the Commissioner of Indian Affau-s 2
Mr. Nori. Yes.
Representative Carter. What was the contents of that letter «
Mr. ^ORi I could not just exactly say, because Mr. Friedman kept
that, and I believe gave it to Warner for an answer, and I believe I
only saw it one time, but I did not read it.
Representative Carter. But it was asking for an accounting of the
athletic funds? ^
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. Do you know the date of that letter ?
Mr. !nori. No, sir.
Representative Carter. Do you know anything about the date or
about the time ?
Mr. Nori. No, sir.
Representative Carter. Was it in February?
Mr. Nori. I could not say.
Representative Carter. ^ Was it before Christmas?
Mr. Nori. I am not positive— I can not— I know the circum-
stances.
Representative Carter. ITow long after that letter came before
you heard Abbott's letter mentioned ?
Mr. Nori. Oh, a week or three or four days, maybe.
1318 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Representative Carter. That was before Linneii came to Carlisle,
when you fii'st heard it?
Mr/NoRi. Yes, sir; quite awhile.
Representative Carter. State specifically, as you never have, Mr.
Nori, what it was that was said about Abbott's letter and who said
it — was it Warner or Mr. Friedman who spoke of it?
Mr. Nori. Mr. Friedman, I believe, was talking.
Representative Carter. What did he say about tlie letter ?
Mr. Nori. As I say, it is just a mere chance remark that I heard;
that is all, his name was mentioned.
Representative Carter. I know you said that. I want to know
what he said. You ought to know what the remark was, if you heard
it, Mr. Nori.
Mr. Nori. You see, I was not close enough to hear it.
Representative Carter. How did you know that the Abbott let-
ter was relative to
Mr. Nori. What is that ?
Representative Carter. How did you know that the Abbott letter
was relative to the athletic account, then ?
Mr. Nori. I heard him say — he said — what I could hear — just
slightly that it was a letter directing him to look into his athletic
account.
Representative Carter. Was that while Abbott was Assistant
Commissioner of Indian Affairs or since ?
Mr. Nori. I believe it was after he left. I do n(H knovv- when he
left, but
Representative Carter. Do you know about what date you
destroyed these papers ?
Mr. Nori. No, sir; I can only go by the time. Mr. Linnen has
been either three or four days — the first one, and then
Representative Carter. When was the first time Friedman spoke
to you about destroying these papers ?
Mr. Nori. It w^as soon after the letter from the office regarding the
athletic account.
Representative Carter. Before Linnen came there ?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. What did he say? Just see if you can
not tax your mind and tell us what he said, Mr. Nori.
Mr. Nori. He said, "About the accounts, Nori" — as near as I can
recall. "Well," I said, "of course, you know how they are." I
said, "They are not altogether right in a whole lot of instances."
"Well, had you not better look into it and try to fix them up as far
as possible." That, maybe, would be the end of the conversation,
and maybe a day or two again the subject would be brought up, just
casually, and he would say, "Well, how about those accounts ? Have
you done anything?" I says, "We can not do anything, b'.^cause
they are all in the auditor's office," and that is all that I could tell
him.
Representative Carter. These receipts that passed between Mil-
ler and you were not in the auditor's office, were they?
Mr. Nori. No, sir.
Rej)resentative Carter. Those are the only things you say you
destroyed ?
Mr. "Nori. That is all.
I
CARLISLE INDLA-N SCHOOL. 1319
Re])resentative Carter. Then, why did you tell him that nothing
could be done; that they were all in the auditor's oflice ?
Mr. NoKi. There was not anything that he could do ^\^th Ms
official accounts.
Representative Carter. What did you understand him to mean,
Nori ? Did you understand him to mean that he wanted you to
destroy vouchers, or that he wanted you to make false entries ?
What did you understand by "fixing." Did he not make any expla-
nation at all?
Mr, Nori. He just told me, from what I can recollect, he wanted
me to destroy any evidence.
Representative Carter. Did he tell you that he wanted you to
destrov " anv evidence ? "
M-. Nori ."^ Sir?
Representative Carter, Did he tell 3'ou that he wanted you to
destroy any evidence ?
Mr. Nori. No, sir; he just told me he wanted me to destroy any
papers that would complicate — I mean that would involve these
things.
Representative Carter. He told you to destroy any papers that
would involve you or him ?
JVIi-. Nori. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. Which one of you — involve you or
involve him — which one did he say ?
Mr. Nori. I suppose him. He said I would be liable as well
as him.
Representative Carter. Oh, he did ? He said it would involve
both of you ?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. How many times did he tell vou that,
Nori?
'Mr. Nori. Well, two or three times, I think.
Representative Carter. How many times did he tell you before
went to get the papers ?
]Vli-, Nori. He did not tell me but once — except — about once, I
guess; and after that
Representative Carter. You went and got the papers as soon as
he told you ?
Mr. Nori. Not exactly.
Representative Carter. Did you not tell me that he told you
away back there when Abbott ^vl■ote this letter that you had better
do something about it ?
Mr. Nori. Oh, yes, he told me — he intimated lots of times, but
then he did not tell me directly.
Representative Carter. When was the first time he told you
directly to get the papers and to destroy them ?
Mr. Nori. It was after Linnen had been there.
Representative Carter. Did you get the papers before he told yom
to do it, directly?
Air. Nori. No, sir.
Representative Carter. You did not get them until he had
instructed you to get them and destroy them ?
Mr. Nori. No, sir.
1320 CARLISLE INDM.N SCHOOL.
Representative Carter. Wlien did Friedman first have a conver
sation with you about making these false entries in the book, and
about carrying this matter along, as you did carry it ?
Mr. NoRi. I guess it was the first year that he came, pretty nearly.
Representative Carter. How long after he came there was it, Nori ?
Mr. Nori. About six months, or so.
Representative Carter. What did he say ?
Mr. Nori. He said — he would say "tickets for pupils." Now, he
had an understanding wdth them, if they would interest themselves
with the schools — ''I have an understanding with them. We will
pay their money and charge their tichets to the Government and hold
them until they return with what-ever expense, or if they have inter-
ested themselves."
Representative Carter. Interest themselves in getting scholars to
come to school ?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. And what did he tell you and what kind
of an entry did he tell you to make about it ? Wliat did he tell you
to do about it ? "
Mr. Nori. We just merely — we just merely kept the money in an
envelope, and whenever the boys
Representative Carter. I am not asking you what you did. I am
asking you wluit he told you to do. How did he tell you to handle it ?
]VIi-. Nori. I would present these bills to him and show liim how
they were marked, and then he would say, "Now, this boy will be" —
he would have an understanding with him to interest himself for the
school — "charge his ticket — let the Government pay it."
Representative Carter. Wliat was that ticket for — for the boy's
return home ?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You aheady had tlie money from the boy yourself
to pay it ?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. Did you begin handling this thing this
way just as soon as he told you to ?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. How long had you been in the service
then ?
Mr. Nori. I went there in 1900.
Representative Carter. You had been there eight years?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. Had it ever been handled that way before,
prior to the time Mr. Freichnan came there ?
Mr. Nori. I have no knowledge of it.
Representative Carter. Were you acting then in the capacity of
chief clerk, as you are now ?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. How long had you been acting in that
capacity ?
Mr. Nori. One year before.
Representative Carter. Had any such thing occurred prior to that
time?
Mr. Nori. There was some cases like that, but that was settled by
Mercer.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1321
Representative Carter. Just tlie same as Friedman did I
]\ir. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. Did v.ni find them sottlino- them that way
as chief clerk ?
Mr. XoRi. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. Did it not occur to you that it was wrono-2
Mr. NoRi. It was customary, I jjuess; that is all I know. '^
Representative Carter. What degree of Indian blood have you
Nori ? -^ '
Mr. Nori. Full-blood.
Representative Carter. Your mother and fatJier were both full-
bloods ?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. Could you speak English when you first
went to the school ? ' '
Mr. Nori. No, sir.
Representative Carter. Where were you educated ?
Mr. Nori. At Carlisle Indian School, and Dickinson f(.r a little
while.
Representative Carter. Your whole experience has been at
Carlisle, has it?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. And you know nothing of white men's
ways and white men's business except what you learned at Carlisle «
Mr. Nori. That is all.
Representative Carter. As chief clerk, did jou consider it 3-our
duty to do whatever your superiors asked yon to do ?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir; I was there to follow instructions.
Representative Carter. Would you consider it your duty to
follow instructions whether you were violating the law or not'«
Mr. Nori. Well, I- I tried to work against what I thought it
was, but I did not think - if my superior officer would pass them
Representative Carter. Why did you not complain about these
thmg before now, Nori? Just tell us. You have a reason, why did
you not? Just tell the committee frankly why it was.
Mr. Nori. I would be ])lained for it; tliat is^ill I know. I did not
want to complain, because I would be blamed for irregularity,
because I believed that Friedman would throw the responsil ility
on me in every way, shape, and form.
Representative Carter. What did you consid(>r would have hap-
pened if you had made a com])lniut? What did you think would
be the result? Did you ever study al)out that?
. ^^r. Nori. Why, I suppose I woiild suffer the penalty of, whatever
It was. '^
The Chairman. Miller was a bonded cfl^cer, was he ?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And Friedman was the disbursing officer?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And they were chargeable with the correct keep-
ing and paying out of those funds ?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I want to find out, now, just what happened
when you first told some one besides Friedman about liaviug destroyed
those receipts. Do you know whether or not Linnen went to Mr.
1322 CARLISLE INDIAN" SCHOOL.
Miller's office and got the remaining files there of receipts or not,
and did he show them to you and show you where receipts had been
torn from the files ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Tile Chairman. And did he confront you with them and accuse
you of having done it?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And you then admitted it?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know whether cr not you got all those
receipts that related to cases of individual Indian pupils who had paid
their transportation, and in which cases it was still . vouchered
against the Government ? Do you know whether you got them all
or not?
Mr. NoRi. I only got what I could ; that is all.
The Chairman. "^As a matter of fact, you lacked about SfOOO.SO of
getting all the receipts, as appears from the records still on file in
Miller's office, of cases where individual Indian pupils had paid their
own transportation in advance, and in which vouchers wtre made
against the Government for their transportation ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Take as an illustration the case of Lafe Allison.
Does the Government pay the transportation home of a pupil who
has desfa'ted or leaves the school and runs away ?
Mr. NoRi. Hardly possible.
The Chairman. That is never done, is it ?
Mr. NoRi. There might be sometimes, but I can not — I do not
think g( ncrally.
The Chairman. Do you remember the cas(^ of Lafe Allison?
Mr. NoRi. No, I do not think I do.
The Chairman. Do you know of any cases where pupils had, as a
matter of fact, deserted and run away and their transportation was
vouchered against the Government, when, as a matter of fact, it was
not us(h1 by the pupil?
Mr. NoRi. Yts; there have been cases like that.
The Chairman. There have been cases like that?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Can you reach from memory now any of those
cases ?
Mr. NoRi. No; because ther(> are so many of them.
Th'^ Chairman. A large number of th'un ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know whet er I^afe Allison was one of
those pupils or not ?
Mr. NoRi. He was one of the chronic ones.
The Chairman. What ?
Mr. NoRi. ( hronic ones — might have taken his name as one.
The Chairman. What do you nvan by ''chronic"? I do not
understand just how you use that word.
Mr. NoRi. If h<^ had been in the habit of running away, his name
would be used ( v< n if he did not run away.
Th'^ Chairman. Th(>re was a habit th'ie, th'>n, of vouchering for
the transportation of pupils who liad run away?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
CARLISLE IXDIAX SCHOOL. 1323
Th'> Chairmax. Did li- voucher for a ])upil A\ho h.id iim uwav
more than oiico ?
Mr. NoRL Sometimes. He may run three or four times.
Th" Chairman. What I want to know is, in a case of a pu])il who
is in th" habit of running away, if th" administration th' re has the
habit of vouch'-rincr thLs transportation and makinc^ th<> Government
- pay it ^
Mr. Nor I. Yes, sir.
S(aiator I.ANE. And would tlv y chaisre him with runninf,^ away
wh'ii h" had not Ixmu g-uilty of it ?
Mr. NoRL Would he charfr(> ?
Senator Lane. Would they accuse him of running away more times
tlian he really did and draw vouchers when he did not?'
Mr. NoRL No.
The Chair,man. They would not cliarge him wdth running away,
in that connection ?
Representative Carter. Tliey would not charge him wnth running
away when lie did run ?
The ChairjMAN. Charge liim witli going home and paying his ex-
penses out of the Government fund.
How old are you, Nori ?
]\lr. Norl Tliirty-eight years old.
The Chairman. You knew that tlie joint commission was investi-
gating those funds ?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You knew that ^h\ Linnen was sent there for that
purpose ?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You knew if he got hold of these records that they
would enable him to check up these fa^se accounts ?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. If I understand you correctly, it was your idea and
purpose to destroy the evidence that would imphcate\you and the
superintendent in making these false accounts, and thus prevent the
matter being correctly checked up ?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. Has Mr. Friedman ever complained to you
that you had kept the money instead of turning it over to him ?
Mr. Nori. No; I do not tliink he did, but I think it was his inten-
tion if ever anything should come of this character.
wSenator Townsend. You are sure you did not keep any of that
money ?
Mr. Nori. Only as I state(L
Senator Lane. He said he kept some.
Senator Townsend. Yes.
The Chairman. You were not arrested until after you had made
your statement to Mr. Linnen and you were arrested the day fol-
lowing ?
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Before a justice of the peace in Carlisle ^
Mr. Nori. Yes, sir.
TJie Chairman. Lid Mr. PYiechnan know that you had made a
statement to Mr. Linnen?
]\fr. Nori. 1 do not know. 1 suppose he thought I did. I suppose
he Would know I would tell what 1 know about it.
1324 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. Do you know whether or not Mr. Friechnan, when
he had you arrested, knew that you had been in conference with Lin-
nen or had made a statement to him ?
Mr. NoRi. I suppose he did.
The Chairman. Where (hd you make your statement to linnen?
Mr. NoRi. In the office of Mr. Lipps.
The Chairman. In the office of the superintendent there at the
school ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. You say you got $100 from some of
these funds to send your wife west? What funds was the $100 taken
from ?
Mr. NoRi. From this transportation of pupils.
Representativo Stephens. Tlion you s^nt your wife th-^ sam ' way
as had been customary to send the pupils ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes; to interest any prosp?ctive students. She went
to Seattle and then went to a scliool in Oregon— I have forgotten^ — •
Salem, and from Salem down to Riverside.
Representative Stephens. What was she doing at all these places —
influencing pupils to come to Carlisle?
Mr. NoRi. She went hom*^. Her father wanted her home, and
he paid her way, and then her uncle lives in New Mexico, and she
went down as far as San Francisco with him.
Representative Stephens. Then, how did you get this $100?
Her father paid her v/ay, and then you got the $100 out of the
Treasury besides ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. You kept the money?
Mr. NoRi. "^'cs, sir.
Representative Stephens. That is the same thing as many others
have done when they sent persons out for the purpose of enlisting
pupils — they were trying to avoid the law, were they not ?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sirl!
Representative Stephens. The rules and regulations?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. I am anxious to know how that is done.
How do they cheat the law by getting pupils to Carlisle, solicit
them ?
Mr. NoRi. When the regulations cam*^ out that they should not
solicit, this, of course, was one form to interest puj^ils, but there was
no direct authority given to anybody. Th-ey only ask( el the people
out in the field to do as much soliciting as possible, without going
over the regulations.
Representative Stephens, Was any amount of money paid to those
people who sent studtnts?
Mr. NoRi. I can not say; there may have been out of the athletic
fund; I could not say as to that.
Rei)resentative Stephens. Who had charge of the athletic fund?
Mr. NoRL j\Ir. Mill"]-, th^e gentleman who has charge of the indi-
vidual Indian accounts.
The Chairman. Who was present when you made 3'our statement
to Inspector Linnen ?
Mr. NoRi. Miss Ilerrman, the clerk, took down the testimony.
The Chairman. Was she a stenographer?
I
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1325
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. In whoso employ had she been previously- whose
employ was she m ? i- j > ^lusu
Mr. NoRi. She was hi my oflice.
The Chairman. In whose employ ?
Mr. NoRi. In the United States Government
Ihe Chairman. Under Friedman?
Mr. NoRi. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. She had been his stenographer «
Mr. NoRi. Well, she takes dictation from him
Kepresentative Carter. Was this SlOO given to voii on account of
your wife's visit to the West ? ' u uu account oi
Mr. NoRi. Wliat did vou say?
Representative Carter. Was this $100 you took out of th(> fund
was that taken out of th(^ fund for your wife's visit to the West ' '
Mr. AoRi. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. To pay her expenses «
Mr. XoRi No, sir; such as may be required to interest ])upils
Representative Carter She went to the West to inte -est pupils
to come to Carlisle; was that the purpose of her mission « ^ ^
Mr. A OR I. As others were
th^'si 00 ''^T^' ^^ n^^^- 7Y\ ^^^ontj did you have for taking
the fumU' ''''" ' '' '^~*^'^* y""'' ^^S-1^* take it out of
Mr. XoRi. I did not have no specific authority
i^^':::^^^^^- °"' ""-^•'-''■-^- **" >-- '^at you might
Mr. NoRi. No, sir.
taS^n'lir''*"*''^' ^''''™''^- ^''^ y'''' ^'^^ ^'''y^^'^y <^l^^at you had
Mr. NoRi It was in the statement I gave to Friedman
i^^^j^^""- ""'"''^'^ ''' -* -^h-- >'-• to take
Mr. NoRi. No, sir.
^^Representative Carter. Did he know that you took it out for your
Mr. NoRi. He had a statement, I think
Repivsentative Carter. Did he make any objection to it^
Mr. AORL JNo, sir.
TESTIMONY OF AUGUST KENSIEE, QUARTEEMASTER.
The witness was duly sworn ])v the chairman.
1 ne Chairman. 1 our nain(> is August Kensler ^^■
Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Wliat is your employment?
Mr. Kensler. Quartermaster.
I he Chairman. At Carlisle Indian School «
Mr. Kexsler. Yes, sir.
m}tt'S^t'''i^'''^ H''^ ^'^'X^ y'''' ^''''^ ^« employed there ?
Mr Keasler. I have been there since the 1st of Julv ^^^9
storekeeper and quartermaster. ^' ^^^~
I he Chairman. What is your age «
Mr. Kensler. Seventy.
The Chairman. How long have you been in the Indian Service ?
1326 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Mr. Kensler. Since the 1st of July, 1882.
The Chairman. You have charge of the goods and supphes?
Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And what else ?
Mr. Kensler. And shops.
The Chairman. Did you hare charge of the sales of Government
prop:^rty?
Mr. Kensler. Government property; yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know how the proceeds of the sales of
Government property have been accounted since you have been
there ?
Mr. Kensler. They have been all turned in to the chief clerk or :
whoever it is, vou know, with the exe(^i)tion of a lot of furniture, which
w\as bought by Mr. Friedman and paid for out of the money received
from sales of rags and old iron.
The Chairman. AVhat fund did that money belong to ?
Mr. Kensler. The ''class 1" fund.
The Chairman. And that should have gone into the United States
Treasury ?
Mr. Kensler. Yes.
The Chairman. You say the most of that furniture was paid for
out of "class 1'' fund?
Mr. Kensler. $270.
The Chairman. From whom was that furniture purchased ?
Mr. Kensler. From the different parties in town.
The Chairman. Various furniture dealers ?
Mr. Kensler. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you know their names, some of them I
Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Give their names. If you have a statement of tlie
furniture I would like to have it.
Mr. Kensler. Here it is, sir. (Handing papers to the chairman.)
The Chairman. The witness here presents what purports to be an
itemized list of the furniture, with what purports to be receipts for
the bills and attaches the same to his testimony as a part thereof. '• i
(The itemized statement and attaclied receipted bills are as fol-
lows:)
Take up on Mr. Friedman property reference, supplementary, as follows:
1 extension table"!
7 chairs, dining. [ Hb. UU
1 chair, arm J ^
1 chair, upholstered « ^n
1 chair, upholstered, rocker ^- ^^
1 chair, oak, rocker qq on
1 parlor suite, 3 pieces f 7 nn
2 chairs, parlor }'-^
1 Turkish leather rocker ^^- J^"
1 oak frame rocker '-^■^
1 arm chair, rocker 07 en
1 davenport ^l' ^^
1 rocker ^-J^
1 table l^
3 tables, porch a ot
3 rockers, porch °- f?
1 cabinet 4.00
1 refrigerator '^^•^^
Total 270.00
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1327
1 J- rr^ • . Carlisle, Pa., Mav 26 iQOfi
Indian Training School, by Moses Friedman, superintendent, to H. L. Shapley Dr
To parlor suite, three pieces j. '
To upholstered green chair *"'^- ^
To rocker, green upholstered. ^^'^^
To oak rocker °- 50
4. 75
Total ; — ^^-
Mr. Friedman : Please examine if this is O K
Respectfully,
Paid. H. L. Shapley. June 1, 1908. ^- ^^^sler.
n r 1 T J X • , ^ , Carlisle, Pa., Jmie 1, 190S.
Carlisle Industrial School, Moses Friedman, bought of M. A. Sierer.
Dining-room suite, consisting of—
1 pedestal extension table]
7 leather-seat diners I
1 leather-seat, arm I ^6
June 10.
Received payment in full. M. A. Sierer.
„ . Carlisle, Pa., iVoi'e»?6^i9, 790^
bupenntendent M. Friedman, bought of M. A. Sierer.
2 roman chairs
1 Turkish leather rocker. '. ^^'^
1 oak-frame leather rocker .".'.'.*' ^^
1 reed armchair. 15
6
Total
• 73
Decembers.
Paid in full. M. A. Sierer.
,, ,. , ^ ,. Carlisle, Pa., ii'e6mar?/.?0, ;9<9i>.
Carlisle Indian Industrial School, bought of M. A. Sierer.
1 leather upholstered davenport . . «,„„ . .
Received payment. M. A. Sierer. Per Jacobs." * ^"
Mr. M. Friedman, bought of M. A. Sierer. Carlisle, Pa., October 12, 1909.
August 16, 1909:
3 porch tables, at $4.25 <i.,o ^c
August 27: *12. 75
1 porch rocker
1 porch rocker ^-2^
1 porch rocker ^-^0
1 cabinet, special "• ^'^^
Total
■D . ^ 25.00
Received payment. M. A. Sierer, Pr. Jacobs.
Mr. Moses Friedman, bought of M. A. Sierer. ^^«^^«^^' P^' ^^^'<^h ^^. 1^09.
1 rattan rocker
In residence of Mr. Friedman,' table! ." .'.".'.'.".' V. ....'..'..'....... ...,., ^3' Jq
Total -^
Received payment. M. A. Sierer, Pr. J.
1328 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Carlisle, Pa., July 15, 1910.
Mr. August Kinsler, bought of G. W. Rinesmith's Sons.
July 11, 1 refrigerator ^29.50
Sold to Mr. Friedman.
Paid. G. W. Rinesmith's Sons. July 15, 1910.
The Chairman. The total amount of this furniture appears to be
$270. Who paid for the furniture?
Mr. Kenslee. I paid for the furnitiue.
The Chaiemax. How did you come to do that?
Mr Kenslee. When I wanted to turn m money at the othce he
says "Here is some bills here. I have been buymg some furniture
here; there is very little furniture in the house." "Well," I says,
"1 don't know about that." "Oh," he says, "that wiU be aU rio-ht.
When I leave that furniture will remaui here just the same, ihere
will be no trouble about it."
The Chairman. Who said that?
Mr. Kenslee. Mr. Friedman, the supermtendent.
The Chairman. When you wanted to turn the money m, Superm-
tendent Friedman presented these bills ?
Mr. Kenslee. Presented some of the bills; yes.
The Chairman. Some of the bills ?
Mr. Kenslee. Yes; you know they were not all bought at one
time. , • ,1
The Chairman. And you objected to paying them, or you ques-
Mr Kenslee. Questioned it; that is the only thing I did. Well,
it was aU right, he says. I knew he had no furmtm-e except one
room furniture, for that large house. I did not know hardly what
to say to him. I says, " I don't know about that." " Oh,' he says,
"that will be all right. When I leave that furniture will remain
^The Chairman. What accounting was made of that $270 paid for
Mr. Friedman's furniture in the way you have stated?
Mr. Kenslee. Wliat accounting?
The Chairman. Yes. i . , -n i,
Mr. Kensler. No accountmg at all, except what bills you have.
The Chairman. It was never entered upon the books at the school «
Mr. Kensler. No, sn. t- -^ i a^ ^ <)
The Chairman. Nor paid into the Treasury of the L nited States <
Mr. Kensler. No, sir. , , i n , ^
The Chairman. But was paid out of these bills and no account
kept of it ? 1 . 1 ..1
Mr Kensler. No account except what you have there.
Senator Lane. That would complicate the accountmg ot your
receipts ? You made an accounting of your receipts to the Oovern-
mcnt of these moneys which were expended for this '^
Mr. Kensler. No, sir; it would not complicate anything, because
the money was not turned in, you see.
The Chairman. How were these bills paid ?
Mr. Kensler. By cash. .^ i i +i 9
The Chairman. Receipts were taken and you attached them «
Mr. Kensler. Yes.
I
CARLISLE INDLIK SCUOOI,. 1329
The Chairmax. Did you pay these bills with vour own hand and
take the receipts ?
Mr. Kexsler. I paid these bills myself with my ow^i hand.
The Chairman. Did you take up the property thus bought on the
Government property returns (
Mr. Kensler. You mean this here ?
The Chairman. Yes. That was taken u]) by the clerk, as I under-
stand, on the last property return Mr. Friedman made ?
Mr. Kensler. Yes.
The Chairman. When?
Mr. Kensler. That was about a month or so ago.
The Chairman. Since the joint commission was over there?
Mr. Kensler. I think it is; yes, sir. I am pretty sure.
The Chairman. I see one bill here,^ receipted, under date of May
26 1908, for $62.25 from H. L. Shaplev, dealer hi furniture and
bedding; another receipt for $46, under date of June 12, 1908, from
M. A. Sierer; a second for $73 un(h^r date of November 19, 1908, from
the same person; a third from Sierer under date of February 20,
1909, for $37.50; a fourth from the same ciealer under date of October
12, 1909, for $25; a fifth under (hite of March 29, 1909, for $5.75; and
another bill for $29.50, receipted by G. W. Rinesmith's Sons, dealers
ill stoves, ranges, and furnaces, under date of July 15, 1910.
Do these bills and receipts correctly represent the dates upon
which they were paid ?
Mr. Kensler. On which they were paid; yes, sir.
The Chairman. These items were never taken up on the Govern-
ment property return until about a month ago ?
Mr. Kensler. No, su'.
The Chairman. Do you know how they came to be taken up then ?
At whose instance were they put on the property returns of the
Government?
Mr Kensler. Why, Mr. Friedman then talked about going away,
and 1 sent word up. I said that this property must be taken up
now\ Ihen he directed that it be taken up.
The Chairman. That was done at your instance ?
Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Why was it not taken up at the time or about the
time of, tne transactions ?
Mr Kensler. It should have been, if the money had been taken
up, which it ought to have been. Otherwise I don't see how^ it would
work out very well. It cUd look funny to me too, I assure you.
Ihat has worried me more than enough.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, yt>u knew that the transac-
tion was ini]H-oper, Mr. Kensler ?
Mr. Kensler. I did, sir; I felt it all the time, that it ought to be
done right at first.
TJie Chairman. Of course, you hatl no authority, and there Avas
no authority, to expend that money for any purpose?
Mr. Kensler. No. To verify my statement, 1 leave it to this man
here [indicating Mr. Nori]. I said some time shortly after that, I
says, "I am paying for some furniture for Mr. Friedman; I don't
hkethat." Didn't I? (No response.)
35G01— PT 11—14 24
1330 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The Chairman. You may just make your own statement, you
know. Now, do you remember another transaction relating to the
proceeds of the sale of some bags ? I believe they were cement bags.
Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir; I do.
The Chairman. Do you know about when that transaction
occurred ?
Mr. Kensler. Well, that was bags that w^e had from Bixler &
Sons, and I spoke to him again about that. "Well," he says, "it is
very often you need things we haven't got here in stock, and it is a
mighty nice thing to have it so you can just send on for it, such as
locks, etc., which we needed considerable of." I said, "All right,
then, if that is your orders "^
The Chairman. Do you know the amount of those purchases ?
Mr. Kensler. I don't know the exact amount.
The Chairman. Have you the receipts for them ?
Mr. Kensler. No ; I have not, because the balance of it also was
taken up. It was $176 taken up on the last account current.
The Chairman. On the property accounting to the Government?
Mr. Kensler. On the account current to the Government.
The Chairman. When did the transaction actually occur ? When
was the money actually expended and the property bought ?
Mr. Kensler. You mean the sacks ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Kensler. That was from time to time; we were dealing with
those people in purchasing cement.
The Chairman. Give me about the years.
Mr. Kensler. I could not very w^ell say that; but anyway it is in
the last three years.
The Chairman. Within the last three years ?
Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. You would save up these moneys, and then use
them to purchase supplies ?
Mr. Kensler. No ; I never took the money out of the firm's hands;
never. They checked up against it. I sent a regular request down
on our request blanks and checked on that blank to credit account.
The Chairman. What would you purchase ?
Mr. Kensler. Locks or whatever they needed around the shops.
Senator Lane. Something that was used there on the premises for
the benefit of the school ?
Mr. Kensler. Yes.
The Chairman. That was property, "Class," just the same as the
other ?
Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir. _
Tlie Chairman. And should have gone into the Treasury of the«
United States. But, if I understand you correctly, at the direction ■
of the superintendent it was used for the purchase of articles there
at the school ?
Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What was the total amount of it, if you remember?
Mr. Kensler. The total amount of tJie purcluises?
Tlie Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Kensler. I should think between $40 and $50.
The Chairman. What was the total amount of sales of the sacks?
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1331
m. Kensler. Well, the balance of the money received for the
sacks was $176.
The Chairman. What was done with that?
Mr. Kensler. It was turned into the Treasury, I presume I
sent the check up, anyway.
The Chairman. When ?
Mr. Kensler. That is on the last account current
Ine Chairman. About when was it?
Mr. Kensler. Oh, it is about the 15th of February
1 he Chairman. Of this year?
Mr. Kensler. Yes.
The Chairman. Since the joint commission and Mi-. Linnen were
over there?
i\Ii". Kensler. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know how that came to be done «
' nfi- li ,^^^'?L^^- ^\f ' I ^^^''nted to do that long ago but he nut it
ott all the time, and he says, ''There is no hurry about it "
The Chairman. Who had that balance of $170 «
j\Ir. Kensler. The firm.
The Chairman. Wliat firm ?
nlf- I^ensler. Bixler & Sons. We never handled a dollar of it
the Chairman. They are in Carlisle ?
Ml-. Kensler. In Carhsle, yes.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, the proceeds of those sacks
amounting to $220 or $225, never came into your hands at all «
Mr. Kensler. No, sir.
The Chairman But was retained there in the hands of a local
dealer in Carlisle ?
Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And part of it used for the purchase of tools and
supplies there at the school, and the remainder kept until since the
investigation began, and then was turned into the Treasury ?
Mr. Kensler. Yes, sir.
Tlie Chairman. The whole sum was not turned into the Treasury
1 assume; or was it? Do you know what amount was turned into
the treasury on account of the proceeds of those sacks «
Air. Kensler. $176, I think.
The Chairman. Byvvhom?
Mr. Kensler. By^tho firm; I sent th9 check up
The Chairman. To the Treasury ?
Mr. Kensler. No ; to Mr. PViedman.
The Chairman. Was the check payable to Mr. Friedman «
Mr. Kensler. Yes; the superintendent.
The Chairman. Did you see the check yourself ?
Mr. Kensler. Xo ; I did not.
The Chairman. How do you know that was done, then «
Mr. Kensler. That I could not say now.
The Chairman. It is not within your personal knowledge «
Mr. Kensler. No, sir; I didn't handle any cash payments.
IheC^HAiRMAN. Do you know of any other property that was dis-
posed of there, Mr. Kensler, the proceeds of which should have gone
into the treasury that was not paid into the Treasury <»
Mr. Kensler. No, sir.
1332 CARLISLE INDL^N SCHOOL.
The Chairman. Can you state whether or not there were any other
funds of that kind ?
Mr. Kensler. None but was turned in.
The Chairman. Does anyone el^e want to ask airf questions?
Senator Tow^xsend. This furniture that was bought for him, is
that in the house ?
Mr. Kensler. It is in the house yet; yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. Is it all there ?
Mr. Kensler. Supposed to be all there, and no doubt it is, too.
Senator Townsend. Do you know of any case where Mr. Fried-
man himself personally got any advantage of the money?
Mr. Kensler. I do not.
Senator Townsend. The holding of the money due the Govern-
ment in the hands of that firm, was that doing Mr. Friedman any^
good ?
Mr. Kensler. Not a bit.
Senator Townsend. He was getting nothing out of that?
Mr. Kensler. Not a thing.
Senator Townsend. What was there wrong about that ?
Mr. Kensler. There was this much wrong, as the Chairman says:
It should have been turned in right off when the sacks were sold.
Senator Townsend. But it wiis not used by the ; upcrintendent.
Mr. Kensler. No; not a thing came up to his house.
Senator Townsend. Was there any furniture in the house ?
Mr. Kensler. When he came there ?
Senator Townsend. Yes.
Mr. Kensler. No more than one employee's furniture — one room.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, the Government allows a
certain amount for the furnishing of those buildings, does it not?
And this was in excess of that ?
Mr. Kensler. Oh, yes, sir; this was all in excess.
The Chairman. You knew, and Mr. Friedman knew, as a matter
of fact, that he had no right to divert that money from the Treasury
of the United States to buy furniture for his own use ?
Mr. Kensler. His reasons, as I am telling you — ^he intimated he
did not have the money to furnish the house, but, he says, "It will
be all right." He says, "I will leave every bit of it here."
The Chairman. In any event, the Government slioidd have been
credited with the property if it v/as bought for tlie Government?
Mr. Kensler. I know, but there was this trouble about it. The
money should have been turned in first, and then authority asked to
expend it.
The Chairman. Certainly.
Mr. Kensler. And I wanted to have that.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, there never was anv intention
to account to the Government for either that furniture or the money
until this investigation was begun ?
Mr. Kensler. Yes: according to his statement, it was the inten-
tion, as soon as he left Carlisle. That is what he said to jue; that is
the excuse he made. "As soon as I am relieved as superintendent"
or "When I leave this house, I will leave all that fin-nitiire there."
The Chairman. Yes; but that is not what I am asking. As a mat-
ter of fact, this $270 fund that should have gone into the Treasury,
and which no one had a right to touch, would never h.ave lieen
i
CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1333
accounted for; the pro]Hn-ty would liave been left there, but it would
not have been accounted for unless through fear of exposure ? Well,
that is a matter of argument.
Senator Lane. The^ fact is this: In the first place, they had no
authority to retr.in the money at all. It was tlieir duty to turn it
mto the Treasury. In the second place, they hatl no authority to
buy the furniture without getthig the i>ermLssion of the officials here.
They committed two wrongs there.
Re]>iTsentative Carter. And in the third place, no accounting
was contemplated at aU.
Senatoi' IjAne. A"o.
Senator TowNSExu. You paid fov tliesc goods, didn't you?
Mr. Kensler. Yes.
Senator Towxsexd. You paid for tb.em as a Government official?
Mr. Kexsler. Yes.
Senator Towxsexd. What kind of entry did vou nuike in vour
books ? ' ' '
Mr. Kexsler. I have the receipts there.
Senator Towxsexd. Didn't you make any entry except those
receipts ?
Mr .^Kexsler. These I held intact, because, I said, when he leaves,
or if I leave before he leaves, I will turn tliese receipts over to the
party that is my successor.
Senator Towxsexd. Did you pay for the goods ?
-sir. Kexsler. I didn't buy it; he bought it.
Senator Towxsexd. You paid for it?
Mr. Kexsler. I paid for it.
Senator Towxsexd. You paid for the property, and you knew
that it belonged to the Government or else you would not have paid
for it ?
Mr. Kexsler. Yes; that is right.
Senator To\vxsexd. That is what I understand. I am not excus-
ing the proposition that this monev was not properlv turned over in
the f rst place, but I see the other view.
The CiiAiRMAX. When Mr. Lipids came there after Dr. Friedman
was suspended, vlo you know whether there was a checking up of the
Govorn.^^.ent property ?
Mr. Kexsler. Yes, sir.
The Chairmax. Did you assist in doing it ?
Mr. Kexsler. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you know whether or not there was other
property found there which had not theretofore been taken up by
the Government wdiich was then taken up on the Government prop-
iertylist? ^ ^
Mr. Kexsler. Yes. sir; there w^as quite a lot.
' The Chairalvx. How much ?
Mr. Kexsler. That is partly the fault of mine when it comes
down to it. I had no way of taking an inventory for years, being all
by myself. There was some wagons there — two mail carts and a
herdic wagon— and a horse. That all came in during Gen. Pratt's
time. Durmg his time he purchased a great deal of tliat stuft" out
jol the athletic funtls, you know— or the "charity" fund rather,
j speaking more plainly.
: Representative Carter. What was the charity fund ?
1334 CARLISLE IXDL\]Sr SCHOOL.
Mr. Kensler. Oh, quite a charity fund, j^ou know. They used to
go around collecting money from citizens outside — that is, in the
different cities.
Representative Carter. For the support of the school ?
Mr. Kensler. For the support of the school.
Representative Carter. They do not do that any more?
Mr. Kensler. No; that was done away with.
(Thereupon, at 12 o'clock m., the joint commission proceeded to the
consideration of other business.)
Report on the Carlisle Indl\n School.
[By Inspector E. B. Linnen, Feb. 24, 1914.]
Department of the Interior,
Washington, February 24, 1914-
The Secretary of the Interior,
Washington, D. C.
Dear Sir: In compliance with your instructions, dated January 19, 1914, I pro-
ceeded to Carlisle, Pa., and made an investigation of the Carlisle Indian School and
all ma,tters in connection therewith. I now have the honor to report as follows:
One of my first duties after arrival at Carlisle was to check up the funds, books and
accounts, viz, the "Athletic funds'' and "Individual Indian moneys," being the
funds of the various students and the Government funds from various appropriations,
etc. One of my first duties, also, was to visit the dining room, shops, domitories, etc.,
and acquaint myself with the conditions then existing. I then visited the hospital,
schoolroom, and every department, and acquainted myself fully with conditions
from personal observation and talking with the heads of the various departments,
with the employees, and with the student body.
After I had become thoroughly conversant and acquainted with the conditions then
existing and in accordance with previous agreement, I conveyed the information
briefly to Hon. Joe T. Robinson, chairman of the Joint Commission to Investigate
Indian Affairs, that I had secured sufficient data and information and had wit-
nesses ready to impart the information whenever the joint congressional committee
appointed by Congress to investigate Indian affairs chose to come to Carlisle to con-
duct their investigation.
Subsequently four members of said joint congressional committee came to Carlisle,
Pa., and conducted their investigation. These members were: Senator Joe T.
Robinson, chairman; Senator Harry Lane; Congressman John H. Stephens; and
Congressman Charles D. Carter. Said joint commission remained at Carlisle for a
period of two days and took testimony of many witnesses, which testimony is em-
braced in volumes 1 and 2, Carlisle Indian School, marked "Hearings before Joint
Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs," which volumes contain 692 typewritten
pages of testimony of 61 various witnesses.
Same are herewith transmitted and marked "Exhibits A and B," to which your
attention is respectfully invited, as the same contains valuable testimony of members
of the student body appointed to present the grievances of said student body and ■
numerous employees bearing on the condition of said school, the treatment of the stu-i
dents and employees by the superintendent, and has a direct bearing and imparts '
information as to lack of discipline, morals, lack of interest and proper management
in practically every department of said school, lack of sufficient food for the student
body, and shows the disrespect and contempt in which Supt. Friedman is held by
the student body, as also by a majority of the employees.
Same also shows the cruel and unjust treatment inflicted on certain students, corpo-
ral punishment, the placing of students in the county jail, and the sentencing of some
of them in direct violation of the law, and shows such an unsatisfactory condition of
affairs to exist at said school as convinced all the members of said joint commission
that Supt. Moses Friedman had not been conducting said Carlisle Indian School in
a. proper manner, and that in the best interests of said school and of the Government
service he should be removed.
Said joint committee's investigation also convinced them that in the best interest
of said school and the Government servi('e, one Claude M. Stauffer, musical director,
who inflicted corporal punishment on a young lady student by the name of Julia
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1335
Hardin, 17 years of age, and was thereafter grossly insubordinate to me, should also
he removed from the Government service, and that the matron. Miss Anna H. Ridcn-
our, should be reprimanded and promptly transferred. This judgment and recom-
mendation on the part of said commission has my hearty and unqualilied approval.
These are the recommendations which I here make, and should have made regardless
of the investigation of said joint commission.
I also make other recommendations hereinafter which I believe to be in the best
interests of said school, and desire to direct your particular attention to the abuses
which have for many years occurred in connection with the athletic fundsof said school,
and I submit that the evidence herewith transmitted shows that the athletic coach,
Mr. Glenn S. Warner, is not a proper person to longer be associated with said student
body by reason of his domination o\er the atliletic boys, his foul language and cursing
of the athletic boys in the presence of the student body and outsiders who hai^jjen to
be present on such occasions. His influence at said school is demoralizing, and it is
the consensus of opinion of the heads of the industrial departments of said school, the
principal, and the majority of the teachers that football and athletics have dominated
said school; that all other departments have been made to be subservient thereto,
and that the manner in wliich athletics have been conducted has been extremely bad
for the academic and industrial training of the student body.
I desire to draw your particular attention to the fact that in practically every depart-
ment of said school there has been a lack of proper interest and proper management;
that there has been a lack of individual interest in the student body for their welfare;
that there has been no systematic effort made to teach the various trades to the young
men; that they were detailed from one shop to another or to the farm or outing, and
that but a ver\ small per cent of the students detailed in the various .s.hops ever became
proficient or learned any trade, because of lack of sufficient length of detail or interest;
that there is almost an entire lack of agricultural training, and that the boys have been
made to feel that they were being punished when detailed to work on farm, garden, or
dairy; that some of the trades have been abandoned which the catalogues of said school
advertise. There has been no human side exhibited by the superintendent at said
school, and his relations and conduct toward the pupils have been overbearing and
very unfriendly and unsympathetic. The students could not go to him with their
grievance? or receive kindly advice; neither could the girl students go to the matron
and receive sympathy or motherly advice. The management of the school appeared
to be exceedingly strained and unfriendly toward the student body, who were almost
in open rebellion by reason of the treatment received and injustice practiced on some
of their members.
This strained condition of affairs could not have much longer obtained. An open
break and rebellion was imminent upon my arrival at said school. It is sufficient to
say in this connection that the members of the student body had held meetings, both
the boys and the girls, and that 276 members of the boys had signed a petition request-
ing an investigation of said school. This petition was handed over to Congressman
Arthur R. Rupley, whose home is at Carlisle, Pa.
After my arrival at said school I was called upon by the members of the student
body, both young men and young women, requesting permission to hold a meeting
of their student body and select therefrom members to present their grievances to
me. I believed that in justice to said body it should be allowed, and I granted such
permission, with the distinct understanding that the members of said student body
to be so selected must represent the majority of the students; that they must state
only the truth and the facts, under oath, and matters which are material to the welfare
of the student body^and the school. Such committees were appointed by the student
body and they appeared before the joint congressional committee and gave testimony,
to which your attention is respectfully invited.
In this connection I desire to say that my observation convinces me that there is
a high class of students at said school; that there is the making of many good, true
men and women out of the majority of said student body if they be properly handled
and their better natures appealed to; that they have a high sense of honor and justice,
and can be properly developed and molded with sympathetic, kindly teaching.
With respect to the feeling exhibited by the various members of the student body
toward Supt. Moses Friedman, it is sufficient to say that the majority of the student
body have the utmost contempt and disrespect for him; that they have publicly
hooted and jeered him, and have called him "Old Jew," "Christ-killer," "Mose,"
"Pork dodger," etc., and have thrown old shoes at him and treated him with the
utmost disrespect. They state that members of their student body have been unjustly
and cruelly treated; have been expelled and sent home from said school simply
because they had complained of the food and treatment accorded them at said school
1336 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
and had taken pari in gatherinojs, and had signed petitions requesting an investiga
tion, etc. Also they complained of corporal punishment of some of the members of
the student body; of the placing of some of the students in the county jail, etc.
ATHLETIC FUNDS — MISAPPROPRIATION OF SUCH MONEYS — DOMINATION OF ATHLETICS
OVER SAID SCHOOL — GLENN S. WARNER IMPROPER COACH.
The athletic funds of said school which have been improperly handled for many
years past is the bone of contention, and has caused more to disrupt, to disorganize,
said school and create a bad feeling and a feeling of unrest and injuetice among the
student body than all else combined. Everything about said school has been
made subservient to football and athletics.
It has been considered an honor to be on the first football team and to be connected
with the athletics of said school. Young men of the student body who were so for-
tunate as to be equipped with great strength, health, and bodily vigor to take part
in the strenuous sports were granted every consideration and privilege. They had
special quarters in which to reside, a special training table, and a separate cook,
and especially good food was provided for them. They were gi^ en watches, medals,
suits of clothing, overcoats, and money as well. They Spent the major portion of
theii- time in training, to the detriment of their education, both academic and indus-
trial. If members of the athletic team were in some of the shops, as was frequently
the case, they got off at half past 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon and went to train.
If they were in the schoolroom, they left the schoolroom for such purpose. During
the football season they were away much of the time, and, as a consequence thereof,
their education, both academic and industrial, suffered, and when it is taken into
consideration that at least 60 or more of the student body were engaged in athletics
and constantly in training, it may be noted what effect the same would have on a
school of this character.
The other young men of said school who were not so fortunate as to be members
of these football teams or athletics have felt that they were being unjustly treated
and slighted; that these athletic boys had more and better things to eat, more and
better clothing to wear, were better housed, and favored in every way, which created
a spirit of jealousy, dissatisfaction, and unrest.
The receipts from games for said athletic funds from the year 1907 to 1913 were:
During the year —
1907 . . .'. .$58, 032. 30
1908 32, 175. 05
1909 30, 619. 94
1910 19, 374. 36
1911 23, 990. 47
1912 33, 275. 88
1913 26, 321. 83
For your information I inclose herewith an itemized statement showing the receipts
from the various games in said athletic fund for the years 1907 to 1913, inclusive,
which I attach together and mark as one exhibit, being "Exhibit C."
I have prepared a list comprising 23 typewritten pages, single spaced, of checks
showing payments made out of this athletic fund from February 9, 1907, to date, to
which your special attention is invited. This list of checks shows hundreds of pay-
ments made to various football players, many payments made to ministers, many
payments made to Government employees who were receiving Government salaries,
payments made to newspaper correspondents, payments made to attorneys, press-
clipping bureaus; insurance; hotel bills and club clues at the mess for visiting per-
sons; moneys paid to jewelers, clothing men, etc., for football players; §;580 worth
of mileage books for Supt. Moses Friedman; numerous hotel bills and expense trips
for Supt. Moses Friedman, including theater tickets, etc., amounting to many hun-
dreds of dollars; New York Times and other daily newspapers for Supt. Friedman;
expenses of Sui)t. Moses Friedman to Washington and elsewhere, when he also charged
up the Government with his expenses; moneys paid to chief of police of Carlisle and
to the sheriff' and detectives for arrests of pupils; Mary B. l^'riedman, ^\^fe of Supt.
Moses Friedman, expenses, entertainment of guests, .§102.70; pay of musicians, etc.
These checks ho listed are only a few of the checks ch-awn during said ])eriod and
are simply noted to show questionable payments made and paymenis made to foot-
ball players, and show that an effort was being made to subsidize the public press
through these newspaper correspondents who haxe been paid many hundreds of
CARLISLE INDL\X SCHOOL. 1337
dollars out of this athletic fund and have been supplied with cameras out of said
fund; that ministers have been paid; attorneys have been paid (some of whom have
appeared at the Indian Office in Y\ashington recently in behalf of Supt. Moses
Friedman); and these ministers and persons who were so paid out of saicl athletic
funds were the pereons who appeared before the joint congressional committee to
give testimony in behalf of Mr. Friedman.
Check No. 508. in the sum of §3,667.63. and check No. 1103, in the sum of ir'4.283,
were checks to pay cash to football players, to say nothing of hundreds of other ciiecks
drawn for a like purpose.
One Hugh Miller, newspaper correspondent, who sends out Associated Press dis-
patches and who is connected with the Carlisle Evening Herald; and al.so one J. L.
Martin, a newspaper correspondent, were paid hui'drods of dollars out of said athletic
funds for sending favorable reports about Supt. Moses Friedman, the school, and the
football team, when they were being paid by the Associated Press for such work.
Attorney John I\L Ray, of Carlisle, was paid SlOO a year, ostensibly to audit the ath-
letic accounts; and Attorney John Wetzeu, of Carlisle, received attorney's fees — for
what purpose nobody appears to know— but he is now one of the active defenders of
Supt. Friedman and has recently made a trip to \\'ashington in his behalf, to see the
honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs.
The Springfield Canning Co. received various large checks for canned goods. This
is a. company in wldch Coach Warner is interested. Note the extravagant expense
bills paid to Glenii S. Warner, amounting iu some instances to over -SI, 500 for a single
trip. Note the large and numerous railway transportation bills, amounting to many
thousands of dollars (which include not only railroad transportation for football players
but large amounts for Pidlman, etc.). \\'hile the expenses of the football members
were very properly paid out of such funds, hundreds of pupils, students of the Carlisle
School, spent annually thou.sands of dollars, which they could ill afford, paying for
railway tickets, hotel bills, and other expenses to see the ganies which were played
anywhere in the vicinity of Carlisle. The money used by these pupils for such pur-
poses was generally furnished to them by their parents, or were moneys paid them as
annuity payments or from tlie sale of allotments, etc.
Attention is called to the fact that in both of said annual salary payments for pro-
fessional football the name of James Thorpe is included.
Glenn S. ^^'arner, athletic coach, has been receiving a salary of .$4,000 per annum,
payable from the eariiings of this athletic association. In addition to this, he has been
furnished with a comfortable house, heat, light, fuel, and water. All of his expenses
of every character liave been met, amounting to thousands of dollars per annum.
The majority, or nearly all, of his trips have been made as a coach, or in connection
with athletic business, presumably.
Goverjiment employees who have beeji receiving an extra salary out of these athletic
funds are as follows:
Will H. Miller, financial clerk, salary $1,000 per annum, has been receiving 535 per
month out of the athletic funds for keeping the books and accounts.
R. L. ]\Iann, teacher, .?720 per annum, has been receiving |15 per month extra out
of these funds for doing Y. M. C. A. work.
Airs. E. H. Foster, teacher, $810 per annum, has also been paid the sum of $15 per
montli for doing Y. M. C. A. work.
William H. Dietz, Indian assistant, salary $540 per annum, has generally been ptid
the sum of $500 per annum additi'nal out of the athletic funds for acting as assistant
coach.
Various ministers residing at Carlisle have received $5 for each Sunday service.
This payment for Sunday services usually amounts to $25 per month. 1 1 is noticeable
that all denominations other than the Catholic Church have been receiving said pay-
ments. One minister who seems to have been especially favored is Mr. Diffenderfar.
Some moneys Iiave been paid to the Dickinson College at Carlisle to cover the
tuition fees of various football pupils who were boarded and housed at the Carlisle
Indian School and kept for the purpose of playing football. Some of these pupils so
favored Avere James Thorpe, Frank Mountpleasant, William Garlow, Gus Welsh,
Antonio Lubo, Peter and Frank llausor, Lewis Tewanama, and others. These fnot-
ball players were generally also paid irom $10 to $15 per month out of said fund.
Aside from tlie cash payments made to football players, they have been furnished
with suits of cl(,thing, overcoats, shoes, watches, charms, meJlals, and other equij>
ment, in addition to the regular athletic; clothing, viz, sw(>aters, trunks, stockings,
8h(K'8, etc., wliich are always furnished the teams. Thc>se suits of clothing, overcoats,
watches, etc., were payments indirectly, instead of money to these football players.
1338 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Supt. Friedman spent hundreds of dollars per annum out of said funds in expenses
incurred by himself, %vife, and friends in visiting these games. Note —
Check No. 1181, Jan. 20, 1909, expenses to Washington $70. 90
Check No. 1534, Sept. 4, 1909, expenses to Washington 16. 00
Check No. 1633, Oct. 28, 1909, expenses to V^ashington 87. 00
Check No. 1806, Jan. 29, 1910, expenses to Washington 27. 00
Check No. 2001, May 24, 1910, expenses to Hampton ] 6. 00
Check No. 2016, Jan. 22, 1910, expenses to Philadelphia, Pa 17. 00
Mileage books 40. 00
Check No. 2314, Dec. 6, 1910, expenses to football team 211. 00
Check No. 2412, Feb. 8, 1911 56. 86
Check No. 2615, Julv 11, 1911, expenses to New York 22. 00
Check No. 2622, July 28, 1911, expenses to ^Vashington 17. 00
Check No. 2747, Nov. 20, 1911, expenses to Philadelphia, Pa 55. 00
Check No. 2800, Julv 28, 1911, expenses to Boston 48. 00
Ch3ck No. 2848, Jan. 27, 1912, expenses to V^ashington 42. 20
Ch<;ck No. 2929, Apr. 9, 1912, expenses 58. 60
Check No. 3138, Nov. 14, 1912, expenses to Washington 7o. 65
Check No. 3139, Nov. 15, 1912, expenses to Philadelphia, Pa 69. 20
Theater.... 10-00
Additional expenses to Philadelphia, Pa 22. 00
Check No. 3508, October 24, 1913, hotel bill, Philadelphia, Friedman 54. 05
Etc.
In addition to the above, he always had mileage books, which were paid for out of
this athletic fund, used by himself and wife. Also, we find by check No. 3311,
April 9, 1913, 1102.70 for entertaining by Mrs. Friedman.
The Government docs not insure its "bTiildings and has never made a practice of
doing so, still I find some of these buildings covered by insurance and checks paid out
of the athletic funds, as follows:
Check No. 1499, dated Aug. 31, 1909 $30. 00
Check No. 1533, dated S-pt. 2, 1909 60.00
Check No. 3025, dated Aug. 10, 1912 60. 00
Check No. 3028, dated Aug. 10, 1912 60. 00
Check No. 3188, dated Doc. 9, 1912 7.20
I also find that it has been customary to pay the chief of police of Carlisle the sum
of 12 for the arrest of each Indian boy student found in Carlisle without a pass. Also,
the sheriff and detective have been paid for making arrests of students.
Loans of money have been made from said athletic funds to members of the foot-
ball team, as follows: Albert B. Exendide, §200; Lewis Tewanama, §300; Gus Welsh,
$50; and others, knowing when said loans were made, or feeling absolutely sure,
that they would never be repaid.
Check No. 1051, dated November 21, 1903, was to pay the Postal Telegraph Co.
§15 for furnishing election returns.
During the years 1907-8 Northern Pacific & Reading Railway bonds were pur-
chased by t.^ie former superintendent, Maj. W. A. Mercer, out of these athletic funds.
This investment appears to have been a fortunate one, in that all of those bonds or
railroad stocks were later sold at a profit, as per lists herewith inclosed, marked
"Exhibits D and E," which lists give the number of the bond, date of purchase,
purchase price, date of sale, sale price, and the profit, which aggregate §1,588.25.
However, I do not deem it advisable to thus speculate with funds which have been
derived from school athletics or any other Government source.
This list of checks, showing payments made oat of the athletic fund, I inclose
herewith and mark "Exhi))it I," and respectfully invite your attention to same.
7\ttention is invited to various copies of bills rendered for clothing, shoes, etc.,
for the athletic boys, and particulariy the football players. These copies of bills
I attach and mark as one exhibit, being "Exhilnt F."
I also inclose itemized list, showing amount of money paid each football player
during the years 1907-8 out of the two checks, aggregating $9,233. These I attach
together and mark as one exhibit, being "Exhibit G."
I also call your attention to the fact that out of the $9,233 paid to football players
during the years 1907-8 James Thorpe, a professional, received the sum of §500.
These football games were played in various parts of the country— in Minnesota,
Nebraska, Missouri, (.'olorado, Pennsylvania, Illinois, New York, Massachusetts,
Ohio, District of Columbia, and other points. The receipts generally have been
quite large, varying from a few dollars to neari\ $17,000 for one game for the portion
CARLISLE IKDLVN SCHOOI . 1339
awarded the Carlisle Indian School. In almost every instance the manager of the
athletic field where the pame v.as played rendered a statement showing the total
proceeds derived from the game, the total amount of expenditures of every nature
and the amount due the Carlisle team, which generally ran from 33^ per cent to 50
per cent of the proceeds. These statements are generally on file in the offce from
which I could verify the books. ' '
The material for "the business de})artment of the academic building was built out
01 athletic tunds, costing approximately $7,000. The material for the printing office
was also paid out of said athletic funds, costing a])proximal:ely S2,500.
The old hospital was remodeled into athletic quarters and'the'raaterial ]mid from
said lunds. Ihis remodeled building cost apj.roximately $]3,G00. The two-story
frame cottage occui)ied by Glenn S. \\'arner, reach, A\as built out of said athletic
funds. This building cost approximately S3,400. The studio, or art buildiu"- a
one-story cement-block structure, was al§o built out of said athletic funds and cost
approximately $;3,500.
The grading of the athletic field, which cost approximately $1,000, was paid from
said athletic lunds. The fire engine and hose house was built from said funds which
cost approximately S300.
The material for the construction of these buildings was furnished and paid for out
of the athletic fund, but the construction work was largely paid for by the Govern-
ment. O J f J
All payments have been made out of said fund bv check, and generally a bill or
statement furni:-hed covering the items paid. In n:any instances these bills appear
to be extremely liberal, and the moneys have been used for paying all class of ex-
penses, such as entertainments of various characters, lectures, salaries, transportation
ot pupils to play football, paying for tutorage for football boj-s at Dickinson College
])aying them salaries, buying them clothing, etc., paving fo"r newspaper press clip-
pings, paying newspaper correspondents, attorneys' fees, druggists' bills, ministers'
(nils, athletic goods of all descriptions, periodicals, insurance, watches, medals,
arrests, loans ot money, etc.
n'^lt^i*^^®* 9v^"^°^"5^°''^'^^^'^ ^'^^ ^ charter for said athletic association were filed April
11, 1911, with the recorder of deeds of Cumberland County, Pa., which, by said arti-
cles ot incorporation, was entitled "Carlisle Indian School Athletic Association "
,V-f, ^T^^??,,*^^ ^}}^ incorporators were: Moses Friedman; Glenn S. Warner, coach;
^l i:^ ^''' financial clerk; William Garlow; D. II. Wuseka, football plaver.
Ihe first three named reside at Carlisle, Pa. The oflicers of said organization are
Glenn S. Warner, president; Will 11. Miller, secretary and treasurer, and these two
officers, together with Moses Friedman, superintendent, constitute the executive
committee.
The books and accounts are being properly kept, except they are not quite as full
and complete as should be for information. The balance in said athletic fund on
!■ ebruary 13, 1914, was 825,640.08, for which check in said amount was made to O. H.
Lipp, supervisor in charge.
The rules and regulations of the Indian Ofilce approved by the Secretary of the
Interior June 14, 1910, specifically provide that the athletic funds be taken up as
class 4 lunds by the supermiendent and special disbursing agent at each Indian
ecfiool and on each Indian reservation, and under the heading of class 4 funds para-
graph 289, appears tlie following:
'"(^j School entertainment, band concerts, athletic contests, sales of curios, or
fancy articles manufactured by pupils * * «."
It will be noted that the articles of incorporaiion were filed after the amendment
JNo. 30 to the regulations approved June 14, 1910, which were at all times since that
date on file in the superintendent's office at Carlisle, Pa.
Section 250 of the Revised Statutes, 5488, provides that—
''When an agent deposits any imblic money in any public place not designated
for the purpose by the Secretary of the Treasury, or any employee converts," loans,
translers, or api)lies public money, he will be deemed guilty," etc.
Amendment 30 of the regulations dated May IG, 1910, approved by the honorable
Secretary of the Interior, provides, among other tilings, that —
"Funds coming into the hands of disbursing officers from miscellaneous sources
are divided into the following class and must all be taken up and accounted for iu
compliance with the act of July 1, 1898 (30 Stat. L., 595), which provides that 'here-
atter Indian agents shall account for all funds coming into their hands as custodians
from any source whatever, and be responsible therefor under their official bonds.'"-
Upon my arrival at the Carlisle Indian School one of my first demands was for
tlie books and accounts of the athletic funds for investigation. I made such demand
01 the imancial clerk, W. H. Miller, who is secretary and treasurer of the athletic
1340 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
associaiioii in ihe absence of the giii»erin(endent, Moses Friedman. He was loatli to
turn said books and accounts oAer to me for invepi igation , and stated, as did also
Glenn 8. Warner, coach and president of said athletic association, that the same was
a private fund of v/hich the Government or its officers had no control, and I had to
insist quite strenuously in order to obtain the books and accounts of said athletic
association for the purpose of checking them up. The result of same is herein indi-
cated .
While it is true that some of the funds derived from these football game3 have been
put to a very good and v/orthy purpose, viz, the construction of various buildings
on the school grounds, etc., still a large amount of such funds have been improperly
used and various interests have been subsidized by the use of such moneys.
In conformity with telegram, dated Washington, D. C, February 17, 3914, received
by me from Hon. Cato Sells, Commissioner of Indian Affairs, I obtained the written
consent of Glenn S. Warner, president and director ; V\"il! H. Miller, secretary, treasurer,
and director, and Moses Friedman, superintendent and director of the Carlisle Athletic
Association, to turn over the funds of said association to the supervisor in charge,
which was done, and I have the honor to inclose herewith copy of said agreement,
signed by said three officers and directors of said association, which I mark "Ex-,
hibit H."
The principal teacher of said school, Mr. John Whitwell, stated to me, in referring
to the influence of athletics on the shop and school room work in general:
" I wish to add that so long as the school boys are allowed to play on teams and pub-
licly represent the school without any regard to their progress or standing in shop and
school room work, just so long this influence will continue to be a menace to the best
interests of the papil and the school. "
This opinion is concurred in by Charles H. Cams, painter; Martin L. Lau. carriage-
maker; John A. Herr, carpenter; H. Gardner, assistant carpenter; William C. Sham-
baugh, blacksmith; Harry B. Lamason, mason; John Boltz, shoemaker; Robert B.
George, tinner ; Ramond Reneker, baker; each being a Government employee in charge
of the various shops; William B. Gray, farmer; G. K. Ballard, second farmer; W. J.
Ryan, dairyman; George Abrams, gardener; William Nonnast, tailor, and a majority
of the other employees at said school.
In this connection your attention is respectfully invited to the te3timony given by
these various employees, as embraced in " Exhibits A and B ' ' before the joint commit-
sion, which testimony is properly indexed.
The fact is that athletics at said school rank first, the band second, and commence-
ment exercises third. Everything was done for advertisement, show and glitter, all
at the sacriiice of the schooling, farming, gardening, daiiying, trades, and industrial
teaching. Everything was made to be subservient to athletics and football. This
as to the academic and industrial work. The boys were taken out of the school and
out of the shops, and special privileges were granted to football players.
Now, with relation to Glenn S. Warner, coach. As heretofore stated, Mr. Warner,
coach, has been receiving a salary of |4,000 per annum, house rent, heat, light, etc.,
for many years past, his salary being much greater than that of the sui>eriniendent.
His work during the football season as coach probably covers a period of three months.
Mr. Warner appears to have had a great influence over Moses Friedman, superinten-
dent, and exhibited to me a three-year contract entered into January 14, 1914. between
himself and Moses Friedman, superintendent, under the terms of which he was to
receive a salary of |4,000 per annum, house rent, heat and light for a period of three
years from January 1, 1914. This contract or agreement, in writing, between him-
self and Moses Friedman was without authority of this department and does not in any
manner bind the Government or Supt. Friedman's successor in office.
Six members of the first football team led by Elmer Bush, the captain of said team,
appeared before me and made affidavits with relation to Coach Glenn S. Warner,
their complaints being in substance as follows:
The alhdavit of Elmer Bush, captain of the first football team, is in substance as
follows :
"Mr. Warner is kind of rough to the football players, using profane language to
them. I heard him curse a boy named William Hodge: called liim a son of a bitch,
like that: said he was not doing his duty; said all tliat we tliink of was eating and
did not give a damn if we played or not. He cursed Wallette. He cursed the foot-
ball boys in the presence of the students and spectators. He cursed Aleck Arcasa
when playing at the Jolui Hopkins University. His influence among the student
body and footl)all boys is bad.
"1 know he is kind of good to the football boys during the season, and when he
gets out of humor he calls them all kinds of names. As long as they play football
he is their friend, but after they leave school he has nothing to do with them. After
CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1341
football season he has nothing to do witli tlie football l;oys; in fact, he has nothing to
do with the students who do not take part in athletics. 1 do not think he is honest.
The boys have been displeased because they never know anything about the athletic
receipts or disbursements. He has the say of the football boys whether they are to
be sent home or to come back.
I do not believe a man who curses and swears at the boys has good influence over
them."
(Afiidavit marked "'Exhibit J.")
The athdavit of Gus Welsh, member of the first football team, shows, in substance
that he has been enrolled at said school as a student for a little over five years. He
believes Mr. Vv'arner is a good football coacli, but a man with no principle; that he
does not have the right influence over the student boys; that he is detrimental to
their cause; that so long as he can use you he is all right with you; but tlie minute
you voice your own sentiments and speak up for them he abuses you; that he uses
profane language and curses the boys; that Coach Warner has cursed him and others;
that he has used the worst cursing and swearing that he could use; that Coach \\'ar-
ner would say to football boys he was vexed at: "You God damn bone head," or
"You son of a bitch"; that he would use such language most every day on the ath-
letic field; that he thought he was superior to the athletic boys, and that they would
stand that kind of language; that he jumped the boys for making minor mistakes;
that he saw him strike a football player named John Wallette; that he heard him
once threaten a boy in Pittsburgh that he would knock his "damn block off." The
boy's name was Roy Large. After having been associated with him for three years,
he considers him no man for the place that he holds. His language is not what it
should be.
" I have one criticism to make. In each large game we have 50 to 75 complimentary
tickets Avhich he is supposed to issue to the patrons of the school, and we have seen him
sell these tickets outright in the hotel lobbies, and I think he kept the money. I
regard him as being dishonest, and so do the other boys. The general opinion among
the football boys is that Mr. Warner has been receiving a rake-off, or something of
value, on account of purchases with athletic moneys, because the ac<'ounts have been
so concealed there must be something wrong. Coach Warner practically controls
the students who play football and take part in athletics, ratlif r than the superin-
tendent. A nrmber of the prominent foniball boys have mentioned that they were
in favor of discontinuing athletics if Mr. Warner was retained as coach. A short
time ago, prior to your coming, I took a leading part among the student body in pro-
curing a petition, which was signed by ui)ward of 200 of the schoolboys, to have an
investigation made of tliis school. Shortly tliereafter I had a telegram that my
brother was very ill in Wisconsin. I had another brother here at the school who waa
anxious to go home, and I wanted him to go home rather than myself; but Superin-
tendent Friedman and Coach Warner were insistent that I should go, and they paid
my expenses home out of the athletic fund, my idea being thai they wanted to get
rid of me during this investigation and not have me appear, as 1 am now doing."
Your attention is iuAdted to this affidavit, which is marked "Exliibit K."
Edward Bracklin, a football player and member of the first football team the past
two years, states, in substance, that Coach Warner is an abusive fellow when he is
playing with the boys on the field; that he is not a very desirable leader, often uses
profane language among the boys; that during the football season it is a daily occur-
rence that he calls the boys "sons of bitches," and also other names; that he saw him
strike a football player, John Wallette, with a stick, and in 1910 saw him kick one of
the football boys and curse him. The boy's name was Lewis Dupois; that ho uses
profane language before the students, football boys, and curses them before the spec-
tators; that Warner has full control of the football boys, makes them go and come
to and from their homes as he M'ants to and sees fit, and controls them, rather than the
superintendent of the school; that he writes the football boys about their coming back
and handles the whole matter, pays the expenses out of the athletic association, and
has the boys enrolled at the school simjdy to play football; that he believes he sells
tlie complimentary tickets and keeps the money; that he is not a true sportsman,
sending out scouts to get the other team's ])lays in advance and showing them to the
boys, etc.
this affidavit I mark "Exhibit L."
Joseph Guyon, member of the first football team, says he has heard Coach Warner
curse the football team and use profane language on the grounds of Carlisle and where
they are i)laying football in the presence of students and sj^ectators; that he would
curse the boys and say "God damn" to them; that his influence over the boys was
not good; that the boys had to take it. but they did not like it ; that he has full control
of the students who jjlay football, regardless of the sui>erintcndeut; the football boys
do not feel that he is the proper person to have charge of them.
1342 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
This affidavit I mark " Exhibit M."
John Wallette, member of the first football team, says that Coach Warner came up
behind him and lashed him with a switch on one occasion when he was practicing
football and had a sore shoulder, and that he has said things to the boys that lowered
their reputation to the student body; that he said all they thought of was the good
things to eat the football boys were getting, etc.
This affidavit I mark "Exhibit N""
Peter Calack, a member of the first football team, says he has heard Coach Warner
curse the football boys on vario;!S occasions; that this occurred on the side lines
when students and spectators were watching the plays; that his fare has been paid
out of athletic funds, and he returned to the school, he believes, at the request of Coach
Warner, who lias more to do with the athletic boys than the superintendent.
This affidavit I mark "Exhibit O."
William Newashe, a former student and football ])layer at said school, states, in
substance, that he played football dm-ing the years 1909, 1910, and 1911, when he was
not enrolled and no longer a student; that he came back at the request of Coach "Warner;
that it was generally given out and supposed that he was a student at Carlisle during
those years; that on one occasion his expenses v/ere paid back to <'arlisle and that he
was given $50 worth of credit at different stores, and given a watch or souvenir medal,
or something of that sort; that he has heard Coach Warner curse the football players.
This affidavit I mark "Exhibit P."
Elmer Bush, captain of the first football team, also makes affidavit that he and
some of the other football boys were called over to ( 'oach Warner's house quite recently
and siiggestion was made there to the boys pi-e.sent to get up a petition in favor of
Supt. Friedman to offset the petition which had been gotten up by the student body.
This affidavit I mark "Exhibit Q."
Joseph Guyon also makes affidavit that he was called over to Coach Warner's house
and suggestion was there made that the football boys should get up a petition to send
to Supt. Friedman to offset the petition which the student body had gotten up.
This affidavit I mark "Exhibit R."
I also inclose statements of Glenn S. \Varner, Elmer Bush, Charles Coons, and Wil-
liam Carlow, which were handed to me by Glenn S. Warner. These statements J
attach together and mark as one exhibit, being "Exhibit S."
In connection with the affidavit of Gus Welsh, it is also worthy of mention that it
was, he who, as a representatiA^e of the boys of the student body of Carlisle Indian
School, presented a petition, dated January 7, 1914, Carlisle, Pa., addressed to Hon.
Cato Sells, Commissioner of Indian Affairs, comprising 214 names of students, and that
while he was at the home of Congressman A. R. Rupley with said petition spread out
before him. Rev. C. M. Diffenderfer appeared, and said Gus "Welsh states that he is
satisfied that Rev. Diffenderfer reported such matter at once to Supt. Friedman,
which was the cause of Supt. Friedman and Coach Warner being anxious to get rid
of Gus Welsh.
This petition which was delivered by said Gus Welsh to Congressman Rupley was
never filed with the honorable Commissioner of Indian .\ffairs, but was handed to
me by Congressman Rupley for my information, he stating that he had not filed said
petition with Commissioner Sells for the reason that he did not desire to put on record
with the department anything which might reflect on members of the student body.
I now hand you herewith this petition for vour information, with the under.^antUng
that it is not to be considered as being filed with this department but is only turned
over for information and is to be returned to C<ingres3man Ru])ley.
Attention is also respectfully invited to the affidavit of E. K. Miller, printer, at
Chilocco, Okla., formerly in charge of the printing establishment at Carlisle Indian
School, with relation to football boys and athletic boys being unsatisfactory as printers,
interfering with the discipline of the school, being paid, etc.
This and other affidavits secured by Supervisor Brown at my request and forwarded
to the Indian Office, are attached to2;ether as one exhibit, which I mark " Exhibit T."
Among other things, Mr. E. K. Miller states that:
"The athletic spirit was urged and allowed to predominate to such an extent that
everything else seemed of a subordinate consideration. In fact, it was easy to imagine
'Pop' Warner the real superintendeiit, and never knew of his orders being counter-
manded; that his power after Mr. liCupp left the service was absolute.
"Wlien it came to boys of my department joining the athletic teams, or the boys
going to practice all hours and being away on trips, I had no voice in the matter. The
statement so often seen that "the ( 'arlisle students' interest in athletics does not detract
from the legitimate work of education,' that 'the time devoted to training comes (Hit of
the students' playtime,' and 'students are not allowed to neglect their studies and
school work for this puri)()se,' are misstatements of facts, as my detailed records there
will show. My work and that of others was secondaiy to these things.
J
CAELISLE INDIAi^ SCHOOL. 1343
"Reports such as the above are easily understood when it is known that the head of
the newspaper reporting bureau downtown was in the pay of the athletic association.
"I have often heard the superintendent extol the director of athletics and his work
in such a way as to lead one to believe that that was Carlisle's important work. I have
lost as many as six boys over my protests. Brought this matter up once at a faculty
meeting, but the superintendent in a speech said the tilling of the school was of first
importance and that it was impo.ssible to accomplish this if we did not allow students
to have things more or less their own way. Both the athletic director and the director
of music seemed independent of other departments."
Mr. ^liller in his affidavit also states that beer wagons stopped and carried cases of
beer into the homes of Mr. Nori, chief clerk; Mr. Stauffer, bandmaster; and Mr. Warner,
athletic master, on the grounds.
From the foregoing, with relation to the athletic coach, Glenn S. Warner, I believe
it is herein sho^vn that by reason of his cui'sing and swearing at the athletic boys in the
presence of students and spectators, and striking football players and various students,
that his ijifluence among the student body is not good. I believe, also, that his con-
duct in handling the athletics has been demoralizing to said school and has been detri-
mental to the teaching in the academic and industrial departments of said school, and
for such reasons I believe that in the best interests of said school his services should be
promptly dispensed with, and I have the honor to so recommend.
For years he has been residing in a Government house on the grounds, furnished with
heat and light, with a salary of $4,000 per annum for practically three months' service,
while instructors in the trades and industrial lines who receive but a very nominal
salary, from ?700 to $900 per annum, have been compelled to pay house rent, heat and
light, in the town of Carlisle, and pay their street car fare to and from the school. This
also has been the cause of much unfavorable comment on the part of Government
employees attached to said school.
ACCOUNTS.
I checked the books and accounts at said Carlisle Indian School and find that the
same are being properly kept. The individual Indian moneys, being the funds of
pupils which are deposited with the Farmers' Trust Co. of Carlisle, Pa., aggregated
a total balance to the credit of said pupils at the close of business on February 12,
1914, of .?28,811.71. At the close of business on said date the balance at said bank,
as given to me, was $80,421.28, the difference of $1,609.57 being made up of outstand-
ing checks which have been dra\\ni against said individual Indian moneys and not
yet cashed at said bank. A list oi said outstanding checks is herewith inclosed for
your information and marked "Exhibit U."
The individual Indian accounts are being handled in a proper manner by the finan-
cial clei'k. Will H. ]\Iiller, whom I believe to be absolutely honest and competent,
and who gives proper credits to the various students for all moneys turned over to
him for deposit to their credit. Likewise they are given proper credits for accrued
interest on their funds from the bank, and checks drawn against their accounts are
properly charged.
Some complaint has been made by various pupils to the effect that they have not
been receiving interest on their moneys, and also that they had not received proper
credits for moneys received, etc. I could not ascertain any foundation for such
charges. It is true, however, that a good many checks and drafts for various ]iupils,
sent to them by their parents or guardians, are made payable to Moses Friedman,
the superintendent, and do not have to be indorsed, so that such moneys might be
improperly converted, although I could ascertain no such instances.
I learned that complaints of the pupils had been quite general that until quite
recently they had not been provided with bank books to show their balances. There
are between 600 and 700 accounts of pupils' individual moneys, aggregating a total
of about $30,000. The bank probably does not feel justified in furnishing bank books
showing monthly balances to each pupil, on account of the large number of small
accounts, and so for about a year last past the financial clerk has been furnishing the
students with little books resembling bank books, showing their l)alanc('s in a like
manner to a bank. These little books have been printed for the Carlisle Indian
School, and resemble a bank book in every way, except that they are simply state-
ments of the Carlisle Indian School, showing the bank balance, rather than the bank,
and these books and balances are kept and made up from the books and accounts of
the financial clerk, showing each pupil's balance, and where it is understood by the
pupils as not being the bank's statement and balance, it is not deemed satisfactory
and still questioned by various of the pupils.
This furnishing of bank books to the students showing their deposits, checks drawn
against the same, and balances is an aid to the pupils in learning to keep their accounts
1344 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
and a matter of just pride in being able to show a cash balance, and I believe it should
be encouraged, and that the bank having such accounts should be willing to furnish
bank books showing balances of all pupils.
At the ci(jse of business on January 31, 1914, the balance chargeable to Moses Fried-
man, superintendent and special disbursing agent, was $41,698.10, which was made
up from the balance in the following funds:
Individual Indian moneys 1 27, 551. 09
Miscellaneous receipts :
(lass 1 786. 45
Class 4 5, 054. 24
Indian monej-s, proceeds school labor 363. 20
Indian school transportation in 1914 2, 297. 92
Indian school, Carlisle, Pa. :
1913 .62
1914 5, 621. 40
Purchase and transportation of Indian supplies, 1914 18. 72
Relieving distress and disease among Indians, 1914 4.46
Total 41, 698. 10
The above accounts do not embrace the athletic funds, the balance of which was
$25,640.03, on February 13, 1914, and whicii has now been turned over to 0. H. Lipp,
supervisor in charge.
The outing moneys earned by various pupils are received in the first instance by
Clerk Mrs. Rosa B. La Flesche, and then turned over to the financial clerk, W. H.
Miller, for deposit and credit to the various pupils.
I have found also that the disciplinarian, Edward McKean, had an account which
was moneys obtained by him for fines levied on various pupils for various offenses by
court-martials. Since he has been at said school as disciplinarian for about a year,
he has received $58.49 as such fines, and has disbursed 142.27, leaving a balance of
116.22, which I suggested should be turned over t^ the acting superintendent.
This account of the disciplinarian I inclose herewith for vour information, and mark
"Exhibit V."
FALSE ACCOUNTS AND VOUCHERS PRESENTED BY MOSES FRIEDMAN, SUPERINTENDENT
OP THE CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL, SHOWING VOUCHERS FOR WHICH RAILROAD TRANS-
PORTATION HAS BEEN CHARGED TO AND PAID BY THE GOVERNMENT, AND ALSO
SHOWING THAT MILEAGE WAS USED WHICH HAD BEEN PURCHASED FROM THE CUM-
BERLAND VALLEY RAILROAD CO. FOR MOSES FRIEDMAN, SUPERINTENDENT, AND PAID
FOR OUT OF THE ATHLETIC FUNDS OF SAID CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL BY CHECKS
DRAWN BY WILL H. MILLER, TREASURER, AND SIGNED BY HIM AND BY GLENN S.
WARNER, PRESIDENT, IN PAYMENT FOR SAID MILEAGE, GIVING THE DATE OF TRAVEL,
BETWEEN WHAT POINTS, NUMBER OF TRAIN, NAME OF CONDUCTOR, NUMBER OP
MILES USED, NUMBER OP MILEAGE BOOK, AND SHOWING RECEIPTED BILLS OF THE
CUMBERLAND VALLEY RAILROAD CO. FOR SAID MILEAGE AS PAID FOR BY THE ATH-
LETIC ASSOCIATION FUNDS.
Cash voucher No. 113, third quarter, 1910, being traveling expenses of Moses Fried,
man, in the sura of $38.71, shows that March 3, 1910, he bought one ticket, Carlisle
Pa., to New York City and return, for which he paid the sum of $8.93, as embraced in
said bill. Said voucher shows that he returned from New York City to Carlisle, Pa.,
on March 5, 1910. On March 3, 1910, mileage book No. 125135 was used on train
No. 4, Cumberland V^alley Railroad, McCleary, conductor, between Carlisle and
Harrisburg, Pa., for two passengers, 38 miles. The records in the auditor's office of
the Pennsylvania Pcailroad Co. show tliat on March 3, 1910, mileage book No. 125135
was used on train No. 61, W. D. Shubert, Harrisburg to Philadelphia, Pa., for two
passengers, and that 190 miles of said numbered mileage was pulled out of said book,
the beginning number of the pulling of said mileage is 805 and the closing number
is 1,000, unng up balan';e of said mileage book. Also, on said date, March 3, 1910,
mileage book No. 125300 was used on train No. 64, W. D. Shubert, between Harris-
burg and P,hiladelphia, Pa., for two pas.sengers, 12 miles, beginning with No. 1 of
said mileage and ending with No. 12 out of said mileage book. On .said date, March 3, .
1910, said mileage, No. 125300, was used on train No. 124, C \Y. Parks, conductor, ,',
between Philadelphia and New York, for two passengers, and 180 miles, beginning
with No. 13 and pulling to No. 192 of the mileage in said numbered book.
On March 5, 1910, mileage book No. 125309 was u-^ed on train No. 7, A. L. Prizer,
conductor, between New York and Philadelphia, for two passengers, 180 miles, begin-
ning with No. 193 and closing with No. 372 miles in said mileage book. Again, mileage
!
J
CARLISLE INDLNX SCHOOL. 1345
Hanling, conductor, Pliiladelj)liia to Harrisbiiiji;. for two pas.«enger8, :
uing with Xo. Mo and ending- with Xo. 580 mileage in eaid book.
March 5, 1910, mileage book No. 125800 was again need on the Cm
Railroad, train No. 13, between Harrisbnig and Carlisle, two pa.ss€
book Xo. 125300 was ii.'-ed March 5, I'JIO, on train Xo. 7. ronnsvlvania Railroad, H. \V.
Harding, conductor, Philadeli)liia to Harri.-^buig. for two passengers, 208 miles, begiu-
'"■*^' ^" """ '" ' ' ""' ^ """ ' ' ' ' ' ' . On same date,
mberland \alley
c- , — I — ;engers, 28 mile.-^,
Snndgrass, conductor.
These are the (bites— Marcli 3 and March 5- of travel by Supt. Moses Friedman
between Carlisle, Pa., and New Yr.rk City, and between Xew York City and Carlisle
■p., .,, ^.l>.^,.,v,^,l 4,, .,.,;. 1 «.,,!, 1 11.) "ii.;. 1 . .. 1/^1,, * '
iperintendent, by the
., - .,-., ^ -1 .roil February 28, 1910.
by the funds of the athletic- association of the Carlisle Indian School. Mileage book
Pa., a> charged in said cash youchor 113,''third quarter, 1910.
Mileage book Xo. 125135 was i.-sred to Moses Friedman, su]
( umherland \'alley Railroad Co., Februaryl9, 1910, and paid for
by the funds of the athletic- association of the Carlisle Indian 8i_uuiu. jjneage uooic
No. J 25300 was issued to Moses Friedman, superintendent, on March 3, 1910, by the
Cumberland Valley Railroad Co., and paid for April I, 1910, by the treasurer and funds
of the Carlisle Athletic Associati( n.
Said ca-h voucher No. 113, thirci quarter, 1910, being for the trayeling expenses of
Moses Friedman, superintendent, sliows further that on March 17 he purchased one
round-trip ticket, Carlisle, Pa., to Washington, D. C, for which he charges $7.18.
Said vouclier shows that he went to \\'ashington from Carlisle on March 17 and returned
from Washington In Carlisle on March 18, 1910. The records from the auditor's office
of the Cumberland \alley Railn-ad Co. show that on Marcli 17, 1910, mileage book
No. 125300 was used from ( arlisle to Harrisburg, one passenger. 19 miles. Conductor
Lynn, and was again used on Marcli 18 on tiain No. 11, Harrisburg to Carlisle, one
pa<«senger, 19 miles, Conductor Wetzel.
The records in the auditor's office of the Pennsylvania Railroad Co. show that
mileage book No. 125300 was used March 17, 1910, on train No. 20, A. B. Whirley.
conductor, betAveen Harrisburg, Pa., and Baltimore, Md., one passenger, 84 mile's]
beginning pulling with No. 638 and ending with No. 721, and said mileage book No!
125300 was again used on March 17, 1910, on Pennsylvania train No. 321, C. T. Sparks,
conductor, between Baltimore. Md., and Washington, D. ('., for one passenger, 40
miles, beginning pulling mileage with No. 722 and ending with No. 761.
On March 18, 1910, mileage book No. 125300, was used on train No. 320, Pennsyl-
vania Railroad, J. W. Smith, conductor, between Washington, D. C, and Baltimore.
Md., one passenger, 40 miles, beginning pulling mileage with No. 762 and ending
with No. 801. Again, on March 18, 1910, mileage book No. 125300 was used on Penn-
sylvania train No. 21, J. H. Milstead, conductor, between Baltimore, Md., and Harris-
burg, Pa., for one passenger, 84 miles, beginning pulling mileage with No. 802 and
ending with No. 855. On March IS, 1910, mileage book No. 125300 was again used on
the Cumberland \'alley Railroad, on their train No. 11, between Harrisburg and
Carhsle, one passenger, 19 miles, Wetzel, conductor. This checks out mileage used
by Supt. Moses Friedman on both of these round trips, Carlisle to New York City
and return, and Carlisle to ^^■ashington and return, as embraced in voucher No
113, third quarter, 1910. This mileage book No. 125300 was issued March 3, 1910, by
the Cumberland Valley Raih-oad Co., at Carlisle, Pa., to Moses Friedman, superin-
tendent, and was paid for April 1, 1910, by Will H. Miller, treasurer, from the funds of
the Carlisle Athletic Association.
Cash voucher No. 118, second quarter, 1912, being for the traveling expenses of
Moses Friedman, superintendent, in the sum of $19.73, shows that on October 23,
1911, said Supt. Moses Friedman charged railroad fare to Washington, D. C, from
Carlisle, Pa., .?3.59. The records in the auditor's office of the Cumberland Valley
Railroad Co. show that on Octobr 23, 191 1, mileage book No. 923285 was used on train
No. 8 between Carlisle and Harrisburg, Pa., one passenger, 19 miles. Conductor Lynn.
The records of the auditor's office of the Pennsylvania Railroad show that on Oct^ober
23, 1911, mileage book No. 923285 was used on Pennsylvania train No. 8, J. B. Hunt,
conductor, between Harrisburg, Pa., and Baltimore, Md., one passenger, 84 miles',
beginning with No. 822 and ending with No. 905 of said mileage book.
Again, on October 23, 1911, said mileage book No. 923285 was used on Pennsylvania
train No. 11, B. E. Dennis, conductor, from Baltimore, Md., to Washington." D. V.,
one passenger, 40 miles, beginning pulling mileage with No. 906, and ending with No.
945, of said mileage book.
The records of the auditor's office of the Pennsylvania Railroad show that on Octo-
ber 25, 1911, mileage book No. 923285 was used on Pennsylvania train No. 320, C. W.
Hall, conductor, between Washington, D. C, and Baltimore. Md., one passenjrer,
40 miles pulled out of said mileage book, beginning with Xo. 946 and ending with No.
985 The auditor's records of the Pennsylvania Railroad also show that said mileage
book No. 923285 was used on Pennsylvania train No. 21, October 25. 1911. between
35601— PT 11—14 ^25
1346 CARLISLE I^;DIAX SCHOOL.
Baltimore, Md., and Harrisbuig, Pa., E. E. Miller, conductor, one punsenger, and iliat
the last 15 miles of said book was used, commencing with pulling No. 986 and ending
with No. 1000. Also on said Pennsylvania train No. 21, between Baltimore, Md.,
and Harrisburg, Pa., on October 25, 1911, E. E. Miller, conductor, mileage No. 923321
was used for one passenger, 69 miles, beginning with No. 1 and endhig with No. 69
of mileage in said mileage book, making a total of 84 miles pulled by E. E. Miller,
conductor, between Baltimore, Md., and Harrisburg, Pa., on train No. 21, October 25
1911, out of mileage books Nos. 923285 and 923321.
The records of the auditor's office of the Cumberland Valley Railroad Co., show that
mileage book No. 923321 was used on October 25, 1911, on then- train No. 11, between
Harrisburg and Carlisle, Pa., for one passenger, and that 19 miles were pulled out of
said mileage book by Wetzel, conductor.
The records of the Cum.berland Valley Railroad Co. at Carlisle, Pa., show that
mileage book No. 923285 was delivered October 14, 1911, to Supt. Moses Friedman,
and that mileage book No. 923321 was delivered to Supt. Moses Friedman October 23,
1911, and that both mileage books were paid for by Will H. Miller, treasurer, from
the Carlisle Athletic Association moneys, by check No. 2720.
Cash voucher 117, second quarter, 1912, for traveling expenses of Moses Friedman,
superintendent, in the sum of $23.58, shows that he charged on September 18, 1911,
railroad fare, Carlisle, Pa., to Washington, D. C, 13.59.
The records of the auditor's offi.ce of the Cumberland Valley Railroad Co. show that
on September 18, 1911, mileage book No. 723670 was used on train No. 6 between Car-
lisle and Harrisbiirg, Pa., Kuhn, conductor, for two passengers, and that 38 miles were
pulled out of said mileage book.
The records of the auditor's office of the Pennsylvania Railroad show that on Sep-
tember 18, 1911, the same mileage book. No. 723670, was used on Pennsylvania train
No. 2, between Harrisburg, Pa., and Baltimore, Md., J. B. Hunt, conductor, for two
passengers, that the last 57 miles of said mileage book was pulled from No. 944 to
No. 1000, inclusive. Also, on said trip between said points, on said date and on said
train No. 2, the same conductor, J. B. Hunt, pulled mileage out of mileage book
No. 772763fortwo passengers, 111 miles, beginning with No. 474 and ending with No. 584
mileage of said book, making a total of 168 miles pulled out of said two mileage books
for said two passengers between Harrisburg and Baltimore.
The records of the auditor's office of the Pennsylvania Raikoad further show that
said mileage book No. 772763 was used September 18, 1911, on Pennsylvania train
No. 15, between Baltimore, Md., and Washington, D. C, L. W. Ragan, conductor, for
two passengers, and that 80 miles was pulled out of said mileage book beginning with
No. 585 and ending with No. 664.
Mileage book No. 723670 was delivered by the agent of the Cumberland Valley
Railroad Co. at Carlisle, Pa., May 18, 1911, to Supt. Moses Friedman, and was paid for
by Will H. Miller, treasu2"er, Carlisle Athletic Association, by check No. 2591, and
that mileage book No. 772763 was delivered by the agent of the Cumberland Valley
Railroad Co., Carlisle, Pa., July 31, 1911, to Supt. Moses Fi-iedman, and was paid for
by Will H. Miller, treasurer of the Carlisle Athletic Association, from such funds, by
check No. 2627.
Cash voucher 142, second quarter, 1913, for traveling expenses of Moses Friedman,
superintendent, in the sum of 114.02, shows that November 23, 19] 2, he charged 143
miles mileage at 2 cents a mile to the Government, |2.86, in going from Carlisle, Pa.,
to Washington, D. C, and on November 25, 1911, charged 143 miles at 2 cents a mile,
$2.86, returning from Washington, D. C, to Carlisle, Pa.
The records of the auditor's office of the Pennsylvania Railroad Co. show that on
November 24, 1912, mileage book No. 269235 was used between Baltimore and Wash-
ington, W. B. Lynn, conductor, one passenger, 40 miles, and that mileage was pulled
from No. 604 to'No. 643. Said mileage No. 269235 at mile No. 604 shows the punch
mark of Conductor C. R. Miller, who runs on the main line of the Pennsylvania Rail-
road between Han-isburg and Baltimore, Md., showing that said mileage book had
been used between said points, although the identical mileage pulled could not be
located .
On November 25, 1912, mileage book No. 269235 was used on the Pennsylvania
Railroad, train No. 308, between Washington, D. C, and Baltimore, Md., H. G.
Duvall, conductor, one passenger, and 40 miles was pulled out of said mileage book,
beginning with No. 644 and ending with No. 683. Also, on same date, November 25,
1912, said mileage book No. 269235 was used on Pennsylvania train No. 55, between
Baltimore, Md., and Harrisburg, Pa., C. W. Rhodes, conductor, one passenger, and 84
miles was pulled out of said mileage book, beginning with No. 684 and ending with
No. 767.
CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
1347
The records of the auditor's office of the Cumberland Valley Railroad Co show
that on November 25, 1912, mileage No. 269235 was used on their train No is be-
tween Harnsburg, Pa., and Carlisle. Pa., Snodgrass, conductor, and that 19 miles
was pulled out of said mimbered mileage book.
Mileage book No. 2(59235 was delivered by the agent of the Cumberland Valley
Railroad Co., Carlisle, Pa., on October 19, 1912, to Supt. Moses Friedman, and was
paid for by Will H. -Miller, treasurer, out of the Carlisle Athletic Association funds bv
check No. 3127. ' "^
For your information in connection with these trips showing mileage used the
date, number of train, between what points, number of passengers, number of miles
conductor, etc., on both the Cumberland Valley Railroad and the Pennsylvania
Railroad, I inclose herewith copies of the memoranda furnished by the ofticers of
said railroad companies as taken from the auditor's ollices in the passenger department
of said Cumberland Valley and Pennsylvania Railroads.
These papers I attach together and mark as one exhibit, being "Exhibit W " and
invite your attention to same. '
List of mileage jmrchased from the Cumberland Valley Railroad Co., Carlisle Pa
and paid tor by Will H. Miller, treasurer, from the funds of the Carlisle Athletic
Association for Moses Friedman, superintendent, viz:
I
Date.
Feb.
19,1910
Mar.
3,1910
Nov
23,191C
Mar.
3,1911
Apr.
13,1911
Mav
18,1911
Julv
31,1911
Oct.
14,1911
Oct.
24,1911
Nov.
10,1911
Nov.
24,1911
Dec.
14,1911
Mar.
9,1912
Mav
29,1912
Julv
3,1912
Aug.
.30.1912
Sept.
12,1912
Sept.
21,1912
Oct.
12,1912
Oct.
19,1912
Jan.
4,1913
Jan.
23, 1913
Feb.
6,1913
Mar.
11,1913
Mav
16,1913
Juno
26, 1913
Oct.
24,1913
Oct.
29,1913
Nov.
14,1913
Jan.
21,1914
Feb.
12,1914
1 mileage book. No. 125135.
1 mileage book, No. I2'300.
1 mileage book. No. 4o8r67.
1 mileage book. No. 671831.
1 mileage book. No. 672628.
1 mileage book, No. 723670.
1 mileage book, No. 772763.
1 mileage book, No. 923285.
1 mileage book. No. 923321.
1 mileage book, No. 923732.
1 mileage book
1 mileage book
I mileage book
1 mileage book
1 mileage book
1 mileage book
1 mileage book
1 mileage book
1 mileage book
1 mileage book. No. 269235!
1 mileage book
1 mileage book ,
1 mileage book
1 mileage book
1 mileage book
1 mileage book
1 mileage book
1 mileage book [
1 mileage book
'^— t- ch^^k^^o.
Total.
1 mileage book for M. Friedman
2 mileage books for M. Friedman (Nos.' 497698* and WmV)'.
Total.
$20. 00
20.00
20.00
20.00
20.00
20.00
20.00
20.00
20.00
20.00
20.00
20.00
20.00
20.00
20.00
20.00
20.00
20.00
20.00
20.00
20.00
20.00
20.00
20.00
20.00
20.00
20.00
20.00
20.00
580. 00
20.00
40.00
60.00
1861
1914
2301
2486
2550
2591
2627
2720
2720
2762
2752
2801
2909
2991
3047
3047
3083
3083
3127
3127
3240
3240
3275
3293
3378
3405
3528
3528
3573
v.o?i. "i V ,, J^^l three mileage books in the sura of .$60 were rendered by the Cnm-
berland \ aley Railroad Co. to Mr. Will H. Miller, treasurer of the alhletic .L.ci.tilm
for this milea-e purchased by Moses Friedman. I took these bills from ]\Ir Miller
and instructed him not^ to pay the .same. Thereafter, Mr. Miller talked with Clenn S
lullTi' '^'''''i' '"l^- \^T !"'."'' ^"'^ *^^ b"' *^f <^'e«''S^ ^^'^ ^huler, detective agency;
Harnsburg, Pa which had been rendered in the sum of $53.75, and which 1 had
filo t^^"' ■^ ,. W^'""^'" ""questionably notified Moses Friedman that I had
nntf« i ff '^n^'""'''^ '-'^l' ^"f "'J'^'^'^'^ furnished him, and said Moses Friedman then
no led the oHicers oi the Cumberland Valley Railroad Co. at Carlisle, Pa., that he
V^ i -Wt^i fn'' '''Tf ^""''^'^ personally. Then the officers of the Cumberland
hn 1 L • ";v!''^'.'','' '"^",P■ "y" ^^'^ telephone and re,,uested the return of these
If Au !^"7 "^^' ^^^^ ^^'""'^^ Friedman would pav for the same
m.^;' . n '^vl'^'' ^''^ ^\- ^"^^'■t ^ ^'i«e, agents of the Cumberland \-allev Rail-
road Co. at Carlisle, Pa., who have been employed with said company at said point
1348 CARLISLE INDIAX SCHOOL.
for many years past, both informed me that said Moses Friedman has never until
now paid for any mileage or raihoad transportation through their office.
I inclose herewith 32 bills as rendered l)y the Cumberland Valley Railroad Co.
for railroad mileage furnished to Supt. Mosea Friedman. The fiist 29 bills, aggre-
gating mileage for Supt. Friedman in the sum of $580, have been paid for out of the
athletic association funds for the Carlisle Indian School. The latter three bills have
not been paid out of such funds for the reason as herein explained.
These 32 bills I attach together and mark as one exhibit, being "'Exliibit X."
This Cumberland Valley Railroad mileage is interchangeable and good over the
Pennsylvania Railroad, where the same was used more extensively by Supt. Fried-
man than over the Cumberland Valley Railroad. His wife often traveled with him,
which accounts for the pulling of mileage for two passengers in the instances as set
forth.
I inclose the triplicate cash vouchers of Moses Friedman, superintendent, for his
traveling expenses, as follows:
Voucher No. 113, third quarter 1910
Voucher No. 118, second quarter 1912
Voucher No. 117, second quarter 1912
Voucher No. 142, second quarter 1913
as these vouchers show Government accounts filed and payments made for trans-
portation, when he was using mileage that had been paid for out of the Carlisle Ath-
letic Association funds, as above shown.
I also inclose triplicate of cash voucher. No. 148, fourth quarter, 1910, of Moses
Friedman, superintendent, which shows that in addition to the payments made
by the Government he charged and collected .|16 additional expenses from the
athletic association for said trip, which was paid for by athletic association check
No. 2001.
These five cash vouchers I attach together and mark as one exhibit, being
"Exhibit Y."
The foregoing I consider absolute and conclusive proof establishing the fact that
Supt. Moses Friedman has presented false accounts to the Government. If I had
been able to secure the numbers of other mileage books which are embraced in the
$580 worth paid for by said athletic association funds, as herein shown, for Supt. Moses
Friedman, I could unquestionably have checked uj) other trips showing wherein
he had charged up railroad fare to the Government in his accounts and used said
mileage.
I took from the athletic association bill book of said Carlisle Indian School accounts
rendered as follows:
Expenses of Moses Friedman, superintendent, going to and coming from New
York, and while there, June 22-23 ^ $22.00
Expenses to Washington, D. C, July 25-26, Moses Friedman, in interest of
school 17. 00
Bill of the Daily Sentinel, Carlisle, for furnishing daily papers to Moses Fried-
man, superintendent, from January, 1911, to January, 1912 4. 50
Bill of the Central Book Store, Carlisle, Pa., Dec. 31, 1913, for Philadelphia
Press for Moses Friedman, Jan. 1, 1913, to Jan 1, 1914 5. 72
which bills have been duly paid out of the athletic association funds.
These checks are shown in payments of said athletic association funds in "Exhibit
I," to which attention is respectfully invited. These four bills I attach together
and mark as one exhibit, being "Exhibit Z."
I inclose, also, bill of George W. Shuler, Detective Agency, Harrisburg, Pa., Feb-
ruary 5, 1914, in the sum of .$53.75. This bill is rendered for services January 23 to
February 1, 1914 — ^10 days at $5 a day and expenses, and is said to be "For services
rendered to discover illegal furnishing of liquor to Indians." My private opinion
is that this detective was employed by Supt. Friedman to watch me after my arrival
in Carlisle. Certain it is, he rendered no service and secured no evidence with
relation to the furnishing of liquor to any Indian.-? at Carlisle. Coach Warner said
that he employed this detective under instructions of Supt. I-'riedman.
Ina.smuch as this department has a fund of $75,000 or $100,000 per annum appro-
priated, and a largo number of special liquor ofiicers whose duty it is to 8U])press the
furnishing of liquor to Indians, which fact was well known to Supt. F'riedman, I
did not believe said bill to be a just and proper one, and I instructed the secretary
and treasurer of the athletic funds. Will II. Miller, not to ])ay the same. I inclose
said bill herewith for your information, and mark the same " Erchibit A-1."
i
I
CARLISLE IXDIAX SCHOOL. 1349
CORPORAL PUNISHMENT— CRUEL WHIPPING OF JULIA HARDIN BY MUSICAL PIRECTOR
CLAUDE M. STAUFFER — WHIPPING OF POUR STUDENT BOYS IN THE LOCKUP BY DAVID
H. DICKEY, OUTING AGENT— CRUEL TREATMENT BY DISCIPLINARIAN WALLACE DENNY,
STRIKING BOYS WITH HIS FIST— INSUBORDINATION TO INSPECTOR LINNEN BY MUSICAL
DIRECTOR CLAUDE M. STAUFFER.
It came to my knowledge that a yoiins lady pupil at said school by the name of Julia
Hardin IS years of age, had been whipped by Bandmaster Claude M. Stauffer. 1
called this ycamg lady tfi the office and tock her sworn statement witli relation to same
which I herewith inclose for your information and mark "Exhibit B-] ." '
Briefly stated, this Julia Hardin is a member of the Potawatomi Tribe, about
three-fourths white blood. She is 18 years of age and a bright, intelligent good girl
Prior to coming to the Carlisle Indian School she had attended the Sacred Heart
Convent near Shawnee, Okhi. She is an orphan and her conduct at said school has
been exceptionally good. Her teacliers ancl every one with whom she has rome in
contact speak highly of her. It appears that she refused to go on an outing in the coun-
try during the summer of 1913, for her stated reason that she did not^have proper
clothing and did not have any trunk or suit case in which to carry her things.
Because of her refusal to go, the matron reported the matter to Supt. Friedman who
sent over Bandmaster Stauffer and he tried to induce the girl to go on the outing ' She
steadfastly refused, when said Stauffer returned to the office arid reported the^'matter
to Supt. Friedman and said to Supt. Friedman: "What she needs is a good straight-
ening out. I think she should have a spanking." Supt. Friedman said to liim-
Why don't you give it to her?" Stauffer said: "I will give it to her if vou say so "
Supt. Friedman said: "Go ahead." Then, Bandmaster Stauffer went back and talked
to Julia Hardin, struck her in the face with his hand, and got a slab, or board, which
Julia Hardin said v.^as about 4 inches wide and 2* feet long, and struck her over the
head, shoulders, and back, after he had thrown her on the 'floor; and she says that he
struck her as many as 40 or 50 times; that she was held by the matron and was on the
floor while he was whipping her; also, that he spanked lier with his hand before he got
the stick to whip her with. She also says he threw her on the floor several times
It appears that subsequently, the principal, John Whitwell, was called in and by
kindness he induced Julia Hardin to do as was requested by the matron. She finallv
did go on an outing in the countrv after she had been put iii the lockup at the school
and worked for Mr. and Mrs. Crawford in Merchantville, N. J., for $6 a month; working
m their kitchen, doing their cooking, dish washing, and washing of clothing, etc., for
a period of three months, paying her railroad expenses one way.
In this connection I desire to state that a white girl wlio performed a like service
would probably have received |5 or $6 a week instead of $6 a month.
Your attention is invited to the affidavit of Julia Hardin, "Exhibit B-1," and also
to her sworn statement given before the joint commission, which will be found at page
^lO. 229.
I then called Claude M. Stauffer, bandmaster, to the office and took his statement;
but prior thereto I put hini under oath so that the testimony which he gave was under
oath. Subsequently, he refused to sign the same and tried to substitute another
statement which is attached to his affidavit and which I herewith inclose and mark
"Exhibit C-1." I respectfully invite your attention to same as said affidavit gives
his statement, under oath, of which actually occurred when he whipped this young
lady. He admits telling Supt. TMedman that she needed a spanking and that Supt.
Inedman instructed him to give her one. He admits smacking her over the mouth
spanking her, and paddling her wdth a stick.
The day following the giving of this testimony, under oath before me, by said
( laude M. Stauffer, I called him into the office to sign this affidavit, after his state-
ment had been put in typewriting. He lefused to sign it, and handed me a two-
page type^Yritten copy of a statement which he said he desired to substitute. Know-
ing, as I did, that the joint congressional committee was to be in Carlisle wnthin a
day or two thereafter, and not caring whether he signed the affidavit or not. as I would
have hmi brought before said committee to testify, I told him that if he did not choose
to sign the statement he had made before me under oath that he was excused, to
which Mr. Stauffer replied: "I'll give you to understand vou are iuit superinteiKlent
here. You can't bluff us the way you have been doing things around here." I
again stated to him: "I told you thait you were excused." Mr. Stauffer then got up
and said:^ "You can't bluff anybody around here. We know you. We are onto your
game. Furthermore, you are no gentleman ; you are no gentleman, do you hear that" ?
making these remarks in a very loud and angry tone of ^-oice, to which 1 made no
reply.
Mr. Will H. Miller, financial clerk, was present in the room and heard this conver-
sation and this insubordination on the part of said Claude M. Stauffer. His affidavit
1350 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
with relation to this matter is inclosed herewith for ^•ol!r information and marked
"Exhibit iJ-1."
.Subsequently, I called the principal, Mr. Jolm ^\■hitwell, to the office and interro-
gated him with relation to the statement which Stauffer desired to inseit in his affi-
davit, which was, in effect, that he (Whitwell) had pulled Jidia Hardin up from the
floor, sayinp: that she did not have half enough of a whipping and threatened to give
her more himself, and ordered her detention in the lockuj) ovei- night.
These statements made by Claude M. Staufl'er, Mr. A\'hitwell states under oath,
are false. Mr. Whitwell's atlidavit, which I inclose herewith and mark "Exhibit
E-1 " also gives his version of the whipping of this young lady, to which your atten-
tion is invited.
Said Claude M. Stauffer also appeared before the joint congressional committee
and gave testimony, under oath, which is shown on page 587, et al., in relation to
this matter. Your special attention is invited to this sworn statement of Mr. Stauffer
wherein he states under oath that he administered this corporal punishment to Julia
Hardin under Supt. Friedman's instructions; that the statements he made in the
affidavit which he gave to me were true. He also admits making offensive statements
to In.spector Linneu; admits slapping Julia Hardin across the mouth, pusliing her
over on her knees, spanking her with his hand and striking her with a stick and slap-
ping her in the face, from a sense of duty; and when he requested instructions from
Supt. Friedman about spanking this young lady, Supt. Friedman told him to go
ahead and do it.
I also desire to draw attenthm to the evidence of Miss Rose Lyons, as given on pages
128 and 129, joint commission, showing how Mr. Stauffer procured a mandolin from
a girl pupil and sold same at a profit.
I hereby charge said ( laude M. Stauffer, musical director, with insubordination
by his having made insulting, ungentlemanly, and offensive remarks to me, in my
presence, without cause or justification, exhibiting extreme anger and a very insulting
disposition. 1 further charge that this occurred while he was attempting to substitute
a statement in lieu of the one which he had made under oath before me, which state-
ment he desired to substitute contained statements as to one John Whitwell, prin-
cipal, which said Whitwell states under oath are untrue.
(See also the sworn testimony of Principal John ^\^litwell before the joint commis-
sion, p. 194 et seq.)
By reason of his conduct in the whipping of this young lady, his general attitude at
said school, and his insubordination toward his superior officer, I have the honor to
recommend and request that his services be permanently dispensed with.
In this connection, with relation to the whipping of this young lady, Supt. Fried-
man directed same without just cause and in violation of the expressed wi.sh of the
department prohibiting corporal punishment.
David H. Dickey, outing agent of said Carlisle Indian School, inflicted corporal
punishment on four Indian Itoy students, named Thomas Necklace, Charles Relcourt,
Robert Nash, and Charles '\\iriiams, ranging in age from 17 to 23 or 24 years; that he
whipped them in the jail on the grounds at Carlisle while he was acting as disciplin-
arian during the winter of 1913-14. He whipped these bovs with a trunk strap,
after having made them stoop over in a reclining position, holding their hands over
a stationary washbowl, giving them in the neighborhood of 50 lashes, or strikes,
apiece. During this whipping there were present, besides Mr. David H. Dickey,
who administered the punishment. Coach Warner, Bandmaster Stauffer, John M.
Rudy, and Mr. Dietz.
It appears that Coach ^A'arner and Bandmaster Stauffer were present in the jail
when this whipping was administered to see that it was properly done, and it appears
that <"oach Warner commanded the boys to put their hands i>ver the washbowl and
bend down to receive the punishment.
So, again, it appears that Bandmaster Stauffer was lending his presence and support
in the whipping of four young men students in the jail at said institution, and Coach
AV^arner was also lending his presence and support, and compelling the boys to stoop
over so that thev coidd be properlv thrashed.
This affidavit'of Mr. David II. Dickey I mark 'Exhibit F-l."
I have the honor to recommend that Outing Agent David H. Dickey receive a repri-
mand and ]k» instructed 1o inflict no further corporal punishment on the students of
paid Carlisl(> Indian School.
Assistant Disciplinarian Wallace Denny, who !ias charge of the smaller boys' dormi-
tory and who is a Chippewa Indian from the Oneida (Vv'is.') Reservation, has on occa-
sion struck some of the boy ])upils with his fist and knocked one boy down a stair-way,
out one boy over the eye with his ring by'strikii^g him in the face. My judgment is
that he should receive a reprin\aud and be instructed not to strike the stud<Mits with
his fist.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCIIODI . 1351
Tlin lostiinony of somo of the pupils, parlicularly that of Lewis Braim, at page 63,
\ohime 1, joint coiniius8ioii testimony, eomplains about Disciplinarian Denny striking
the lioys with his fist.
COMMITMENT OR STUDENTS TO THE COUNTY JAIL AT CARLISLE, PA., FOR TRIVIAL OF-
FENSES, AND IN SOME CASES HAVING THEM SENTENCED UNJUSTLY AND IN VIOLA-
TION OF LAW.
Some of the pupils, ])oth boys and girls, have on several occasions been confined in
I ho county jail of Cumberland County, Pa., at Carlisle.
1 desire to draw your particular attention to the case of Paul Jones and Ethel
Williams, who during the month of September, 1913, were placed in the said county
jail and remained there for a period of 70 days.
Paul Jones is about 20 years of age. He is from the L'matilla Eeser\atiou, in Ore-
gon, and arrived at the school at Carlisle February ], 1912.
Ethel 'Williams is 18 years of age and from the Onondaga Reser\ation, R. F. D. No. 5,
Syracuse, N. Y. She arrived at said Carlisle School in November, 1912.
These children were charged with fornication by P". E. ^IcKean, disciplinarian at
aid school, on September 20, 1913, who swore to such a complaint before a justice of
the peace, under instructions from Supt. Friedman. These children were then re-
moved from the jail on the school's grounds at Carlisle to the Cumberland County Jail,
Carlisle, and placed in charge of the sheriff, Mr. Walters. Paul Jones was brought to
I he county jail in Carlisle from the school with no coat or vest.
An incident under said charge was prepared by the district attorney, but was never
signed by him. These children were never brought into court, but were induced by
the district attorney to enter pleas of guilty in the county jail, as I am reliably informed
by Disciplinarian E. E. McKean. They were induced to enter pleas of guilty, so
Mr. McKean says, in order that they might commence serving their sentences right
away, and thereby be enabled to get out of jail earlier.
The judge, in his own handwriting, put this statement on the back of each of these
unsigned indictments:
"And now, 23d of September, 1913, the sentence of the court is that defendant shall
pay the cost of prosecution and to suffer imprisonment for 60 days and remain com-
mitted in the county jail until this sentence is complied with.
"P)V the court.
"W. F. Sanders, P. /.'■
I have the original court papers in these cases in my possession and here^vith file
true copies thereof for your information, which four papers 1 attach together and mark
as one exhibit, being "Exhibit G -1," and respectfully invite your particular attention
to same.
The laws of the State of Pennsylvania provide that the crime of fornication is a
misdemeanor and not a felony, punishable by a fine and not imprisonment; therefore,
the sentence inflicted upon these pupils was ivithout v,'arrant or justification in law
and in direct nolation of the statute of the State of Pennsylvania.
Furthermore, Paul Jones was brought to said jail handcuffed like a criminal, alter
he liacl been held in the school jail for tnree days. He ^\as brought there without a
coat or vest and remained in said jail for a period of 70 days, without any ••hange of
clothing whatever and without having been visited by any person from the Carlisle
Indian School. He was turned in among a lot of hardened criminals, negroes, and
jail birds, in a filthy, insanitary jail that is alive with vermin, and made to associate
witli these criniinals for a period of 70 days.
The girl, Ethel Williams, fared better, because of the fact that the sheriff's wife,
Mrs. Walters, appears to have had a kind heart and took Ethel into her house and let
her assist her in doing the housework, so that she was not compelled to remain among
the criminals in the jail A^ery much of the time. After the 60 days' term had expired
these children were compelled to remain fronr 7 to 10 days longer in said jail.
I inclose herewith three pictures taken in said Carlisle jail on November 27, 1913;
one l)eing a picture of Paul Jones; one of Ethel Williams, and one taken of a group of
the persons in said county jail at that time. These three pictures I attach together
and mark as one exhibit, being "Exhibit H-1."
After being taken out of jail, these pupils were sent home.
There are numerous other instances where pupils of the Carlisle Indian School
have been iiicarcemted in the county jail at Carlisle, Pa. On one occasion Principal
John Whitwell took a boy pupil from the school down town and had him arrested,
under instructions from Supt. Friedman, and charged him with petit larceny for
stealing pies from the bakery. The boy was kept in the county jail for 30 days, aa
he nov.' rcmem')erv
1352 CARLISLE i^;dl\x school.
Another vast- ihat came under my observation Avas that of Charles Kelsey, a ^^'inne-
bago Indian bo^^ about 23 years of age. He is a bright, capable, good boy generally,
but about the time of my arrival he procured some whisky from some bootlegger in
Carlisle and became uiider the influence of it, and thereafter had an altercation with
Disciplinarian E. E. McKean, in wliich he struck McKean over the head with a skate,
cutting him quite badly. Said Charles Kelsey was placed in the jail on the grounds,
and the next day removed to the county jail at Carlisle and a Avarrant of complaint
sworn against Mm by Disciplinarian McKean, at the request of Supt. Friedman,
charging him with assault.
I Aisited this boy in the county jail and foiind him to be A-ery penitent for Ids act
which he had committed while under the influence of liquor; found that he had no
bad feeling toward Disciplinarian McKean and Avas A^ery anxious to get out of jail;
said he would apologize publicly before the Avhole school, sign a pledge, and gi\'e his
word of honor not to touch another drop of liquor. I felt that this boy was sincere
and truly penitent, and belieAdng it might be the turning point in his life for good to
give him another chance, I requested that Disciplinarian McKean withdraw his charge
and retiu-n the boy to the school and let him apologize publicly before the student
body and give him another chance. To this reqiiest Disciplinarian McKean was
heartily in accord and bore no ill Avill toward the student, knowing that the Avhole
matter had been occasioned by reason of his having been under the influence of liquor.
This student Avas returned to school, did publicly apologize, and I feel that his con-
duct henceforth Avill be exemplary, and that this will be the making of this boy. while
if he had been compelled to serve a sentence and expelled, as Avas the expressed wish
of Supt. Friedman, no good would haA'e resulted to him.
There have been numerous cases Avhere pupils have been incarcerated in said
county jail for triAdal offenses, when such cases should have been taken care of by the
supenntendenl at the school, and the pupils should liaA-e been properly disciplined
there. The jail at the school is sanitary, heated by steam, lighted by electricity,
clean, provided with running water and all conA^eniences. with concrete floors, and
in -every respect a much more desirable place to confine and discipline students than
is the county jail, Avhich is extremely filthy, insanitary, filled with A'ermin, and the
association of these students Avi h hardened criminal and nogroes in a filthy, dirty jail
is anything but good and eleA^ating, and, in my judgment, should not be resorted 1o
except in extreme cases.
Again, it appears that in other instances Avhere boys at the school h^vA^e gotten drunk
and where they ha\'e broken into the dormitories in the girls' building and haA^e
debauched them, that no such seA'ere punishment was inflicted or meted out to them,
thus showing that no justice has been shown in these cases; that a boy aa'ouM be
thrown into the county jail, made to serve a sentence of 30 days, and expelled from
school for stealing pies Avhen he was hungry and ill fed at said school, and then they
Avould minimize the offenses of boys who met girls improperly and debauched them.
I might here add that this is one of the injustices that has caused the student body
to rebel; they felt that some of their members leaders of the boys and girls, were
expelled or sent home unjustly because they had criticized the school or taken a lead-
ing part in getting up petitions to have said school investigated, while others, guilty
of these serious offenses, went unpunished.
In consideration of the foregoing, I belicA-e that Supt. Moses Friedman has been
guilty of gross injustice to members of the student body by having them placed in
the county jail and made to associate with criminals, and in some cases in direct
violation of laAV and the statutes of the State, and I believe that Judge Sanders, who
rendered such unjust and unwarranted sentence against Paul Jones and Ethel Wil-
liams, in violation of the statutes of his State, is wholly unfit to be dignified with the
position of judge.
THE DINING ROOM — LACK OF SUFFICIENT FOOD FOR THE PUPILS — LACK OP NECESSARY
DISHES, KNIVES, SPOONS, CUPS, ETC. — LACK OF CLEANLINESS IN THE KITCHEN — COM-
PLAINT OF THE STUDENT BODY GENERALLY TH.\T THEY* DO NOT HAA'E SUFFICIENT
QUANTITY OF FOOD, ETC.
Shortly after my arrival at Carlisle Indian School, I A'isited the dining roojii aud
investigated conditions there. Subsequently, during my stay at the Carlisle Indian
School, I visited the dining room as many as 15 times while the pupils Avere eating
their meals. On my first fcAv visits I noticed that there Avas a lack of suflicient food fui
the students. Many of them complained to me that they did not get enough to eat.
This complaint Avas made to me at A^arious times by as many as 400 pupils of said
student body. 1 made it a point to go from table to table in the dining room to look
OA'er conditions and talk Avith the pupils. The complaint was general that they did
I
i
f CArUSLi: JXDTAX SCITOOI., 1353
uot Lave sufficient food— until I had made two or three visits to said diniiiK room
when they commenced tellmi; jue that they were now j^ettiug more to eat
In the hrK in.-uuice, the .student.^ complained of n.;t having; enoutrh l^read One
plate ot bread cuntaiiiin- from JO to 14 idices, Mordd be ])Iacf d on each tal>le which
was occupied by 10 pupils. A second helpin-. ,„• pl^to of bread, was not furnished but
t he one plate ol bread would have to suffice: cousequentlv, manv ])upils -.,t l)ut one
^ ice of bread. 1 hev held up their plates and called in vain for the sec.'.nd helping
wl bread. Ihe complaint was general among the students that they did not have
sufficient bread to eat. -^
The students wc^re given one helping uf l>read, a little oaCmeal, which amounted
^",./^'^'o^^""^^ f ^'^ V""^''" ^'^'^ 5^"1^^1' ser\ed without milk or sugar, a cup of weak
coheo (2 pourids t.j the 100 ration) of an inferior grade, which was colored ^vith a
ittle milk and in which a small but insufficient quautitv of sugar was placed For
breakfast, generally beef was served which was cooked 'bN' steam in a large kettle
iM.r dinner, generally, bread and gravy, prun-s, water, and sometim(>s a little meat'
lor supper, tea, grav\-, bread. This was practically the ration served at the time of
my arrival, except that pupils would be gi^•en an insufficient quantity of sirup twice
a week, gingerbread once a week, and pie on Sunday.
Shortly after my arrival they commenced baking" more bread and serving more
bread to he jmpils, so that they could get a second helping. Thev also furnished
msm with some rice or beans. Putatoes were served t\\ice a week, generally on
Wednesdavs and Sundays; butter once a week. \\Tien sirup was served twice a
week one little pitcher of same would be placed on each tabl- for 10 persons There
was just about enough sirup to supply five or six of the pupils and the balance went
without. There were practically no vegetables served: no milk or eggs- butter once
a week; no cookies or doughnuts.
The pupils began getting more to eat after my arrival, and hundreds of them stated
to me that they were so glad that I came, because thev were getting more food On
many of the dining-room tables, when I first arrived, there were no spoons On
many tables 1 noticed a lack of four to six knives out of 10 places set; five or six cups
tor 10 pupils to drink out of; some of the pupils would have to wait until their next
neigh oor at the table got through using his knife so that they could borrow same to
cut their meat; many times two pupils were drinking out of the same cup Napkine
appear to have been furnished once or twice a week, but were seldom used by the pupilfi
and no attempt was made to teach them table manners. Hundreds of the students
told me that many, many times they had gone away from the table hungry, and that
they had been compelled to go to restaurants down town and to purchase from the
bakery wagons mth the little change they had, pie.^ cookies, doughnuts, and other
food, because they were hungry.
Shortly after my arrival and first visits to the dining room, when the students got
through their meals and left the dining room there would not be a scrap of anything
Jelt to eat on the tables and many went away hungry— so they informed me In this
connection I desire to refer to the testimony of 14 of the pupils of said student body
WHO testified betore said joint commission, as embraced on pages 26 to 163 of the hear-
\T^- ^^V«^^,.t^^ JO'"^; commission, "Exhibit A." and particularly to the testimony of
Alvis Martin, contained on page 57 et al. These pupils represented the student
body m their complaints.
But 6 acres at said school are used as a school garden, and the ve-etables raised
therein are mostly for summer use, green stuff furni.«hed to the tables in tlie summer
time, when the majority of the pupils are absent.
About 1 000 bushels of potatoes were raised at said school for the present fiscal
year and by the middle of winter there were no vegetables for use at said school to
Buppiernent and assist in the regular ration furnished. Instead of having 6 acres in
the garden they .should have from 60 to 100 acres; and instead of raising 1,000 bushed
of potatoes, raise 10 000 or 12,000 bushels; 8,000 or 10.000 heads of cabbage; several
thousand bushels of beets, carrots, rutabagas, onions, turnips, and other vegetables
that will keep for winter use. This would help out Ihe ration oreatly
Ihe dairy herd should be increased so that the pupils could have milk to drink
■^^^?j u ^y ''^"^' ^*^^ '^^^^^<^'" oft«"«r tli^a once a week; likewise the raising of poultry
Bhould be encouraged, so that some eggs could be supplied to the pupils ^ ^ ^
c^A ?lP'"'i''''*' ''''^''^ '^\ "'^'^ '^'^•^°'' ^"d ^^'»''*^ October, 1913, 97 hogs from said
school have been sold and the proceeds deposited in cla.ss 4 funds, inst'^ad of these
pupils getting some of the pork to eat and having tlie benefit of the lard for cooking
purposes, making doughnuts, etc. The monev derived from the sale of the.^e hogs
18 not used for the table. ^
There is no fruit raised at said Carlisle Indian School; no instructions .nven to the
pupils in horticulture; no small fruits or aj)ples whicli could and should have been
1354 CARLT3T.E IXDIAX SCIIOOJ.,
raised, liavn ever been provided for said pupils, to say nothing of the teaching and
instructions which would be thus afforded.
I am firmly convinced that the ration furnished by the Indian Office is insufficient
to cover tlie needs of this school at the present time, because there are no fruits or
vegetables, milk, butter, eggs, pork, or lard to assist in said Government rations.
The pupils of this school are generally grown-up men and women who are healthy,
vigorous, and active in their work and play and require fully as much or more of a
ration than does the ordinary person.
The former ration of 110 pounds of flour for 100 rations has been reduced to 90
pounds. The beef all6wance has been cut down from 110 to 85 pounds per ration,
and the ration as a whole is insufficient. There is not enough tea, coffee, or sugar
allowed for 100 rations.
I noticed that no soup was served to the pupUB in the dining room, and observing
the vast number of bones from which some meat was being cut for hash, I wondered
what was becoming of the soup stock, there being quire a large amount of meat left
on the bones, which I learned was being thrown away. This soup stock was not
being used because of the lack of soup bowls, and a great deal of nourishment was
being wasted which the pupils would have been very glad to have.
At times during the serving of meals there is no man-disciplinarian in the dining
room.
The assistant cook, Mrs. Sadie A. Richey, only receives $360 a year. She is a good,
hard-working woman; admitted that the pupils complained often that they did not
have enough to eat; were not getting enough bread; she believes that improvements
could and should be made in the cooking; that it should be better and more cleanly;
that the kettles are not kept clean; that the boys in the kitchen are not taught cleanli-
ness, etc.
This assistant cook should receive an increase in salary, and I have the honor to so
recommend.
The daily ration for pupils amounts to:
Four-fifth ounce of rolled oats, with no milk or sugar.
Seventeen-twentieths pound meat.
Nine-tenths pound flour.
1 pint sirup for 12 pupils.
2 pounds coffee for 100.
One-seventh pound onions.
Three-fourths pound potatoes.
One-half ounce butter.
When it is considered that they do not even get all of this ration and onl>' get potatoea
twice a week, butter once a week, sirup twice a week, onions occasionally, with occa-
sionally some beans, rice, dried apples, and without any vegetables to supplement this
ration, it can readily be seen that same is not satisfactory.
During the training season the athletic boys have a separate cook, separate tables,
plenty of good food to eat, which is served in the dining roon with the other boys, and
h a further cause for complaint by the many students who are not receiving such
good fare.
I am firmly convinced that in order to have a happy, contented, well-disciplined
lot of pupils they must be better fed, and not go away from the table hungry and
disgruntled and not be compelled to use their scant means in the purchase of food
or have a school of this character charged with not properly feeding the students,
as could now be very properly charged.
The large kettles, or stewpots, in which most of the cooking is done in the kitchen
were covered with grease and dirt, and the kitchen, also, was lacking in cleanliness.
I called the attention of the cook to this latter and had these pots and kettles and
the kitchen scoured and cleaned and put in order.
I also drew tlie attention of the dining-room matmn, Miss Susan Zeamer, t'> the lack
of sufiiciont cups, kniv(\s, sj)o:)tis, and dishes, and had her make requisition for the
projMn- number. I also condemned and had carried from the dining room quite a
large numlyer of large porcelain pitchiM-s which were cracked and chipjx'd and were
unsightly and insanitary and had them replac<'d.
Mrs. Zeamer admitted that the children often complained that they did not get
enough to eat; that they c(>mj)lainc-d they did not get enough l)read many limes; that
they did not have enough fruit; that the gravy did not reach, and that they did not
get enough meat. She stated that she wont to Mr. Kensler, the quarteriuaster, for
cups, spoons, knives, forks, etc., but that he would not give her enough. She said
that she believed that was the cause of l)ad discipline in the dining room; that many
times some of the lai-gc boys got up and went out to a store to get their meals. She
?i)id the ]Mi|)if-j did not even have eggs on Easter Sunday for the pa.-^t two y(>ars; that
J
CAKLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1355
they never got any eggs, cookies, or doughnuts; no ham (ir bar-on. She eomphiins that
they need more and better dishes and a better disliwasher. She says the table linen
is changed twice a week; there are not enough napkins to go around, and she admitted
that the pupils were getting more to eat after my arrival; that they l)ought lots of food
from the bakery because they were hungry.
The superintendent, Moses Friedman, rarely ever visited said dining room to ac-
quaint himself with these conditions, and his absolute neglect in this connection is
inexcusable and indefensible. This is but another instance of his lack of interest in
the welfare of the student body; lack of huiuantty when the.se poor students were
clamoring for bread and enough to-eat.
I have the honor to recommend that the rations for this school be increased suffi-
ciently to properly feed these pu{nls until such ration may I)e supplemented with
vegetables raised from the farm and garden, as should have heretofore been done.
1 also recommend that the dairy herd be increased so that the pupils may have milk
occasionally and butter oftener than once a week; also that the poultry be increased
so that the pupils may have eggs occasionally; and that instead of selling the pigs
fattened at said school, at least half of same be us'>d on the ta!)les for the benelit of the
pupils, as well as the lard used for cooking purposes.
DORMITORIES LACK OF PROPER MATTRESSES, TOWELS, ETC. — BOYS BREAKI.NG IN
girls' DORMITORIES — LACK OF PROPER NIGHT WATCHMEN, ETC
I visited all of the dormitories and made a careful inspection of every room and
bed in said dormitories.
These dormitory buildiiigs are cut up into small rooms in which there are three or
four single beds, occupied by three and four students. These are old single beds
without any bedsprings. but. instead, iron slats. Over the iron slats were placed mat-
tresses, the majority of which had been in use three to six years and were worn down
so they were about an inch in thickness and hard almost as the floor. These mattresses
placed fiver the iron slats made a very hard l)ed, indeed, and there was great necessity
for doubling u]i on these old mattresses or putting new mattresses over the old ones,
or entirely condemning the old ones. I had quite a number of old mattresses con-
demned and replaced with 80 new ones from the commissary, being all the mattresses
which were on hand. There is a great necessity for 250 to 350 new mattresses to fix up
these beds.
In a few instances complaint was made by some of the pupils that they did not
have sufficient blankets or covering. The bed linen is changed one sheet a week,
one new sheet being furnished and the top sheet being placed on the bottom for the
second week; one change of pillow slips a week; and the pupils have been furnished
^vith one towel a week, which had to suffice for their bathing as well as other use —
this in the face of the fact that there are a large number of bath towels in the quarter-
master's department which could have been had by making proper requisition.
I respectfully submit that one towel a week is not sufficient for these pupils, and
that there should be a complete change of bed linen once a week at least.
Some of the rooms in the dormitory buildings were kept none too neat or clean.
This was especially true in the girls' dormitory building.
I desire to call particular attention to the lack of proper fire escapes on the girls'
dormitory l)uilding. A\'hile there is an opening or place fixed to slide down on poles
on the porches from the third to the second stories, there is no opportunity of escape
from the second fioor of said building except by the stairways, which, in case of fire,
would become congested and undoubtedly a large loss of life occur. 1 believe that
special provision should be made to provide proper fire escapes for this building.
It may be that the reason this has not been done heretofore has been because of the
opportunity it might afford the boys to enter the girls' dormitory building.
In this connection I desire to say that it is my best judgment that a cou})le of com-
petent white men should ])e provided as night watchmen at said srho')l; that this is
one of the crying needs of said institution; that the lack of having had such i)roper
watchmen on these grounds has been the cause of much immorally, lack of discipline,
boys breaking into girls" dormitory, etc.
Heretofore these grounds have been policed at night with a det;iil of the boy
pupils. Such guards were changed two or three times each night, and these stu-
dent guards would allow their friends lo go and come at their pleasure. Thus it,
would })e (hat when taps were sounded an inspection of the rooms might disclose
that all of the boys had retired, but in 10 minutes theretifter they might be up and
dressed and go downtown in Carlisle, ol)1ain wiiisky. returii to the grounds under
the influence of licpior. bring liquor on the gromuls. break into ihe girls' dormito-
ries, and do things which could not obtain under a ))r()per guard of night watch-
men who would enforce strict discipline.
1356 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Ill the boys" dormitories I noticed the laiobs off a great many of the doors: many
of the rooms were untidy; the boys said they bathed whenever they saw tit; there
was no one to enforce their bathing once a week or oftener; that they were fur-
nished with one towel a week and one sheet changed on each bed. Some of the
boys complained they did not have enough blankets.
in the small boys' dormitor}^ four boys generally occupied a room, and the stove
to heat the Avater in the tank for bathing was too small to provide sufficient hot
water for bathing purposes during the winter months.
I desire also to call attention to the fact that for the past two years none of the
suits of clothing from the small boys' dormitory has been brought to the tailor shop
or sewing I'oom for cleaning or repairing. There was no one to see to the gathering
up of this clothing or having it properly repaired, and I am reliably informed that
many good suits have been condemned and sold as old rags. This great waste in
clothing should be stopped and the pupils' clothing should be repaired and cleaned.
This lack of proper mattresses for the beds, lack of proper changes of bed linen,
the use of one towel a week, lack of having the boys' suits cleaned and repaired,
lack of proper fire escapes on the girls' dormitories, and the lack of proper night
watchmen on the grounds is but another instance of neglect and indifference on
the part of Supt. Friedman to look after the proper conduct and management of
such school.
AGRICULTURE, OR RATHER LACK OF AGRICULTURAL TRAINING, DAIRYING, GARDENING,
POULTRY RAISING, HORTICULTURE, ETC.
The Carlisle Indian School is supplied with two farms; one containing about 160
acres and the other about 110 acres; also a garden tract of 6 or 7 acres.
William B. Gray, one of the farmers, has been employed at said school for about
20 years. Last year he had planted on the farm he has charge of, 48 acres of wheat
28 acres of corn; 21 acres of oats; 9^ acres of potatoes. The wheat raised, 973 bushels,
was sold; the corn and oats were used, or are on hand; a little over 1,100 bushels of
potatoes were raised, of which he is keeping 120 bushels for seed, leaving about 1,000
bushels for the school. He raised 195 chickens and has 90 on hand, having killed
160 for Christmas dinner. He worked 4 horses and 4 mules. He now has a detail
of 2 boys in the morning and 1 in the afternoon. In the summer time he needs 9 to
12 boys, especially at harvest time, but he is handicapped, he says, because they do
not send him enough boys. During the summer season he does not have enough boys
detailed to properly do the work. The same boys are not generally sent long enough to
learn anything. Usually he has sent boys who have been failures in the shops and they
are sent out to work on the farm as a kind of punishment. He says there is not enough
interest taken in farming; that it is a secondary consideration; tliat he could teach
a large number of boys improved methods and instruct and help them if he had a
proper detail, but they will not send them to him. He states that in October. 1913,
an Indian boy by the name of Anthony Spottedhorse attacked him and he struck
him with a club and broke Ms arm.
The other farm, containing about 110 acres, is in charge of OUve K. Ballard, who
is a recent arrival, having only been in charge of said farm for about four months.
He states that when he took charge of the farm all of the crops for the year 1913 had been
harvested, excepting a few potatoes. On this farm the hogs are raised. At the present
time there are 113 hogs and pigs, 51 of which are small pigs; 46 of them are shoats.
Since October, 87 hogs have been sold. About four boys have been detailed to him
each half day.
On said farm they have been raising corn, wheat, alfalfa, timothy, and a few potatoes.
Since he has been here he has never had any instructions from Supt. Friedman. He
was advised by Mr. Kensler, the quartermaster, that he was running the farm and to
do what he considered best and planned what he thought was best on tlie farm. There
are about 150 tons of silo on the place. The dairyman lives on this farm, also.
Mr. W. J. Ryan is the dairyman. He came to said school in September, 1913, and
claims that he was tmjustly treated by Supt. Friedman three days after he arrived,
and was reprimanded by him for not getting more milk from the cows. He states
that he was not furnished with a sufficient detail of boys to do the work, and that the
boys sent to him on detail were those sent for punishment and discipline. He com-
plains that the boys have broken into the milk house and taken the cream and milk
because proper locks have not been furnished to him.
F'ebruary 4, 1914. Dairyman W. J. Ryan addressed a letter to me detailing conditions
and making complaint, and inclosing two dairy reports; one for the week ending
August 27, and the other for the Aveek ending September 3, 1909, said dairy reports
shovdng that Supt. Friedman had received milk and butter from the dairy."
CARLISLE INDLVN SCHOOL. 1357
This letter, with reports attached, I inclose for vour information and mark " Exhibit
II."
George Abrams is the florist, having been employed in said school for al)Out 15
mouths last past. He states he has about 6 acres in garden; works five and six boya
each half day, could work more to a good advantage, but in the summer time when he
wants them he can not get them. They are all out working. He has to get girls to
pick peas, beans, etc. He states he should have ten times as large a garden and raise
much more for the winter mouths, such as cabbage, beets, turnips, carrots, and other
vegetables: that all the vegetables raised are now gone. He states that a large garden
would furnish instructions for a large number of bo^'s, and that those boy pupils are
needed here for gardening, farming, and instructions, as bad or worse than they are
needed by the farmers where they go. He could use :W to 50 here and give them in-
structions in gardening: he could also raise small fruits, apples, pears, strawberries,
raspberries, etc. He says that in the summer months he does not have a sufficient
detail of boys to do the work on the grounds in a proper manner.
Up to a few years ago there appears to have been a department at said school de-
voted to instructions along agricultural pursuits, but same appears to have been
abandoned some two or three years ago, and no instructions are now given the boys
as to agriculture. It is the opinion of the gardener, both farmers, and the dairyman
that the boys detailed to the farms, gardens, and dairy have been made to feel that they
were being punished and disciplined: that a sufficient detail has not been given them
to do their work in a proper manner, to say nothing of giving the boys proper instruc-
tions; that during the summer months when they need help, they do not have a suffi-
cient detail of boys for even the crops which they have been raising, such as wheat,
oats. corn. etc.
Intensified farming should be carried out and instructions along agricultural lines
should be gi^-en the boy students, and they should be made to know and to feel that
farming is an honorable emplo^Tiient. They should be taught that it is of first impor-
tance to them to understand agriculture along its various lines. I have the honor to
recommend that such teaching be given.
Most of these boy students have allotments and farms at home and the majority of
them will have to depend on farming for a livelihood. Thus, they should be given
instructions in agriculture, stock raising, dairying, gardening, etc., which has been
almost wholly neglected at this school.
As heretofore stated, (iO to 100 acres should be used for a garden, and at least 50 boys
be given instructions and employment in such garden, and a large amount of vege-
tables be raised for the benefit of (he school. Intensified farming and the raising of
crops other than wheat, oats, corn, rye, etc., should be carried on on these farms, and
the better portions should be selected for the good gardening. Horticulture should be
encouraged, fruit trees and small fruits set out, and the boys given instructions and
encouragement along these lines also. Same is true as to the dairymen. The herds
should be increased and an interest created among the boy students in farming, garden-
ing, dairying, stock raising, horticulture, poultry raising, etc.
Instead of these boys being sent out under the outing system of ( 'arlisle at a nominal
wage, iisually from §12 to $15 a month, they should be employed and instructed along
agricultural lines and gardening at said school, when they have come there for that
piu'pose .
Tne?e farmers who employ these outing students generally are not philanthropists,
and their \\ hole idea is to get these boys to work for them because of the cheap wages
paid them, which generally amounts to about one-half what they would have to pay a
white man for the same work.
If these farms were divided up into 5 or 10 acre tracts and a sufficient detail of boys
put in charge of each small portion and they be encouraged by giving them one-third
of the value of the crop raised . it would create an interest in agriculture and each detail
would strive to outdo the other, which would result in good work and instructions in
intensified farming, and the two-thirds which the school would obtain as the result of.
such work would undoubtedly greatly exceed the pnx eeds whic h have heretofore been
obtained from .said farm. At the same time it would encourage the students and give
them .'something to work for. This method has been successfully employed elsewhere
and could be here.
This lack of interest and almost absolute neglect on the part of Supt. Moses Fried-
man along agricultural lines, dair.ying, and stock raising is but another illustration of
his utter disregard of the pi'oper teaching of these pupils, and shows his incapacity and
failure to properly instruct the.'^e Indian pupils along proper lines.
In his annual reports he lays special stress on instructions whi( h he gives to students
in agriculture. He .-^ays they are given most pra( tical and comprehensive training,
etc.. which is absolutely di.xproven by the statements of the farmers, gardeners, dairy-
men, and pupils themselves.
135 b CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
ACADEMIC WORK — STUDENT BODY PRINCIPAL OF SCHOOL — GENERAL CONDITIONS.
The total number of pupils enrolled at said school is 810, of which number 492 are
boys and 324 girls.
The number of outing pupils is 160, of which 73 are boys aud 87 are girls. The
number of deserters at present, 1 boy; number on leave, 7; 6 Ijoys and Igirl; number
enrolled with less than one-half Indian blood, 133; number enrolled with less than
one-fourth Indian blood, 13: number of graduates in attendance, 6. being 4 boys and
2 girls; number of pupils who have attended public school prior to coming to Carlisle,
234; number of pupils who have public school facilities at home, 245; number of
pupils who live over 2 miles from public schools, from the present list, 225.
Twelve of the 18 boys and girls who will graduate next year with public school
facilities at home, are: Edward Morrin, William Thayer, Kenneth King, Hiram Chase,
Arnold Wilkey, Lilian Walker, Minnie Charles, Minnie O'Neill, Bessie Gilland, Nettie
Kingsley, Naomi Greenskey, and Eva Williams.
Fifteen of the 18 boys and girls who will graduate tliis year have j^ublic-school
facilities at their homes.
Out of the 13 pupils enrolled at said school who have less than one-fourth Indian
blood, two have been authorized for enrollment by tlie honoral^le Commissioner of
Indian Affairs, as follows: May Beck, Cherokee, one-eighth Indian b^ood; Addie
Hoderman, Assiniboine, one-eighth Indian blood.
These students whose names are listed below were transferred to Carlisle V)y ageucies
and school superintendents without any specific authority: Oliver Gregory, one-sixth
Cliippewa, 1911; Colder Laraoreaux, one-eighth Sioux, 19il; Miguel Little, one-eighth
Apache. 1010; Lewis Little, one-eighth Apache, 1910; Lewis Palin, one-eighth Flat-
head, 1910; Susie Lacy, Chippewa, 1911; Anna Roulette, one-eighth Chippewa, 1907;
John Bouchard, one-eighth Kootenai, 1911; Ella Cueller, one-eighth Shawnee, 1913;
Anna Loren, one-eighth Mohawk (New York State), 1909; Delia Edwards, one-eighth
Onondaga (New York State), 1909.
From the foregoing, it will appear that 245 of the present pupils enrolled at Carlisle
have public school facilities at home, and that there are at present 234 pupils in said
school who have attended public schools prior to going to Canisle. In many instances
pupils enrolled there have been in attendance at public schools in towns and rural
districts for several years. In a good many cases these pupils are the children of well-
to-do mixed breeds, who have made their homes in towns and cities adjouiing reser-
vations, and in many instances thei'* fathers are successful business men and ranchers,
with public-school facilities at their homes.
The question arises, why then should these pupils be taken from their homes where
public-school facilities are readily obtainable, and from parents who are well capable
of caring for them, brought to Carlisle at an expense to the Government, and, in a
large number of cases, farmed out under the outing system to farmers and housewives
and there given public-school facilities for a period of 75 or 100 days a year that are
probably no better in the majority of instances than the pu])ils have at theii' homes?
In response to my request, the principal teacher, Mr. John ^^'hitwell, furnished me
with a list of students who have been expelled or dropped from the rolls, showing
within a short period that 22 pupils have been expelled and quite a few others sent
home or dropped from the rolls. This list shows that the records have been falsified
in many instances. The report of Mr. John Whitwell shows how this was done. I
inclose said data herewith for your information, which I mark "Exhibit Jl."
The number of pupils under 14 years of age who are now enrolled at said school are
18, being 13 girls and 5 boys.
Inspector McLaughlin's report on the Carlisle School, dated November 26, 1910,
shows that 91 deserters were carried on the pupils' roll of said school and given credit
for the full time and attendance, although they had been absent from the school for
periods ranging from two months to as long as two and one-half years.
In Supt. Friedman's letter, dated January 23, 1911, he states:
"We have aimed constantly, and by every possible effort, to keep our rolls clean
and have them based on records."
He also stated in said letter :
"There are being dropped to-day the names of 101 students, including all deserters,
which reduces our attendance to 943," etc.
In February, 1911, only about a month after this office had given instructions
to Su])t. Friedman to drop deserters who had been absent fnun the school 30 days,
Supervisor Charles F. Pierce made a careful examination of the attendance records
of said school and found thai 186 pupils who were marked as being "on leave" and
"runners" were carried on the attendance reports and given credit for full time and
I
CARLISLE IKDL^N SCHOOi. 1359
attendance, although they had been absent during periddy ranging from a few montlis
in length to as long as live years.
This report of Super\is(M- Pierre shows that credit was taken for approximately
22,000 days' attendance, n(jt a single day of which had actually been earned. lii
other words, the attendance rolls have been padded to the amountof over 22,000 days.
The normal teacher, Mrs. Lydia Kaup. stated to me that the superintendent had
not encouraged the employees, but had hindered the progress of the academic work.
She stated that he did not use good judgment and that the scholars received no indi-
\idual attention; that she had over 100 })upils in her schoolroom and could not do
justice to them; that the pupiN were not being treated fairly; that the dicipline was
poor and too lax, and not up to the standard of what il used to be: that no support
had been received in the academic department; that the employees had no respect
for the superintendent and did not fear him; that athletic sports, receptions, dances,
etc., interfere with the academic work and unfitted the i)upils for such work.
Mrs. Kaup also gave testimony before the joint cojigres:<ional conimitte^,-, v.hicli is
contained on i>age 323, to which attention is invited.
Mrs. EmmaC I.ovewell, teacher, .«tated to me that there was Aery much dissatis-
faction among the pupils; that the dicipline was very bad; that the employees were
not encouraged, and that the academic work recei\ed no encouragement o.' support;
that the pupils dislike the su}ierintendent very much; that his action in expelling
Syhia Moon and other pupils greatly angered the student body; that the superin-
tendent is unjust to employees and pupils. She stated that he had been insulting
to her and abused her shamefully. She does not approve of putting the pupils in
the county jail. She states that many pupils have complained to her that they were
hungry and did not get enough to eat; that there never was enough bread; that
Supt. Friedman had shown favoritism toward employees; that he had lost all prestige
among the pupils and the best employees; that pupils afflicted with trachoma had
been sent as outing pupils to various homes.
Mrs. Lovewell also testified before the joint commission. See her testimony at
page 470.
5liss Ifatlie M. McDowell, teacher, stated to me that the employees of the school
felt that Supl. I'riedman had not dealt justly with them or Avith the pupil.';; that he
had not the welfare of the students at heart; that he had no interest in the school,
pupils, or employees; that he is just busy advertising himself and does nothing
lor the general good of the school. She stated that if it had not been for Principal
^Tiitwell the school could not have stood up so long. The school and academic
work is of secondary importance. Everything is done for show and to make a good
appearance. The band, football, commencement exercises, and im})ro\ements of
the buildings are the things which have received consideration and attention, and
the essential things have been neglected; total neglect in the agricultural depart-
ment and gross misrepresentation in the catalogues and ad\ertisements sent out b\-
eaid school; that th? pupils were all up in arms against the rniperintendent; that
they had complained to her repeatedly that they did not get enough to eat; that
Principal ^\'hitwell had been shamefully treated. '
Miss McDowell also testified before the joint committee. See her testimony at
page 477.
Mi-s. Bertha D. Canheld, seamstress, who has been at said school for 14 years, and
who is a good woman and good employee, says: "Conditions at this school are deplor-
able as to morality and discipline, the lowest now it has ever been'"; that every--
thing has been done t(j advertise the superintendent and to beautify the grounds:
that the failure of the superintendent to cooperate with the former matron. Miss
Gaither. resulted disastrously, in sacrificing the morals of the school and ruining
the girls; that the superintendent neglects the human side, the talking to pupils and
leading them; that in less than a year Itj girls have been expelled, generally for
immorality; that the superintendent has been unjust and has expelled pupils without
cause, and named Sylvia Moon as one. She states that he has not the love, respect,
or confidence of the pupils; that the superintendent turned one Myrtle Sullivan loose
in Harrisburg without any money or protection, a girl about 18 years of age; that he
tells employees to get out of his office if they do not like it; that he will not cooperate
with them for the good of the school. She speaks of unjust treatment to Genevieve
Evaux and Elizabeth Lavata. She believes the school should help the girls and
pupils instead of sending them out to destruction; that she knows of one instance
when the former matron. Miss Gaither, was ordered to the gymnasium, leaving the
girls' quarters all alone, and that, as a rasult, two boys got in and spent the evening
with the girls; that the superintendent has sent out girls like Agnes Jacobs with the
band boys — an immoral girl who was unfit to represent the school ; that girls have been
ruined in going to pageants and visiting cities with the band and football team. She
1360 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
speaks of the lack of discipline at the hospital; that the conditions there were very
deplorable; that one girl was ruined there; that the boys were protected while the
girls were not; that the moral conditions of said school are very bad: lots o.' drinking;
students almost in open rebellion, complaining that they do not get enough to eat;
that if conditions a.re not rectified soon, something desperate will likely happen.
Mrs. Canfield states that she has detailed 58 girls in the mcrning and 41 girls in the
afternoon in her department and is doing a good work. She says tliat none of the suits
in the small boys' dormitory have been mended for the past two years; that her
department makes the white shirts, nightshirts, and underwear, which she believes
should be purchased. Mrs. Canfield also gave testimony before the joint commis-
sion; see same at page ]S6.
Mary Yoos is an assistant seamstress; salary $600 per annum. She has a detail of
about 15 girls in the morning and 12 girls in the afternoon. She states that the girls
detailed to her are very apt and are making good progress. This seamstress has had
no promotion in four years and is desirous of getting a transfer so that she may get
more salary.
Miss Alice Hecknan, assistant seamstress, is filling a temporary position. She has
charge of the mending department, and about IS girls are detailed to her each half
day. She. like the other employees, states that the superintendent never talks to her,
gives her any instructions, talks about the girls or their work, or takes any interest
in them.
Miss Elizabeth Searight, an assistant seamstress, who is receiving $400 per annum,
has been at said school for 12 years and has received no promotion or increase in salary
for the past hve years. Her home is in the town of Carlisle. I have the honor to
recommend that her salary be increased. She is a g<iod, competent, faithful employee.
Roy L. Mann, teacher, says there is a great lack of discipline ; that the discipline at the
athletic building is bad; that there has been much unjust treatment of the boy students ■
speaks of one who was locked up for writing to his parents; that pupils are allowed.
to go out without guard passes; that there is lack of proper night watchmen; that the
boy students are very bitter against tlie superintendent; that they have hissed him
and called him "Old Jew"; told him to get out when he was visiting the classrooms;
says he is unjust to the boys; that the whole school is in an uprising and open re-
bellion.
Miss Margaret M. Sweeney, teacher, says that she has been treated by the superin-
tendent with extreme contempt in her schoolroom in the presence of students; that
the superintendent has charged her with going away from the grounds without leave,
which is untrue; failed to send her letter of explanation to the commissioner, and sent
in charges against her. She states that Bandmaster Stauffer is instrumental in making
trouble at the school; that he has great influence with Superintendent Friedman,
"vvhich is bad for the school; that the student body dislike the superintendent very
much; that he is unjust and unkind to the students and to certain employees; that he
shows favoritism; that he was very unjust to the former matron, Miss Gaither; that
morals are bad at the school; the students hiss the superintendent; that a few weeks
ago the students broke into the girls' quarters again; that the superintendent has been
very unjust to Principal Whitwell, who is a good, honest man, and has the respect of
all the pupils of the school; that the boys at the school are getting desperate; some-
thing must be done; that if this continues for another month there must be an out-
break. "Your coming at this time is a God send.'"
Miss Sweeney also appeared before the joint commission and ga-ve testimony. See
same at page 492.
Miss Sweeney also made affidavit before me with relation to her taking leave at
one time, wherein she claimed she was unjustly treated by Superintendent Friedman.
I transmit this affidavit for your information, and draw your attention to same, marking
it "Exhibit Kl."
John Whitwell, principal teacher, states that all academic and industrial work is
made subservient to athletics and football, and that the boys are taken oiit of the school-
room and shops for this purpose; that the teachers have the girls, bnt not many of the
boys, at times; that special privileges have been granted to the football players and
that this is bad for the discii)line of the school; that certain boys have been put on the
students' roll just to play football; that there is no agricultural department now. it
having Ijcen abolished; that the department of telegraphy has b(>en abolished, also
the harness-making department; that ("each Warner and Bandmaster Stauffer have
been influencing the superintendent; that additional salaries haA^e been paid to
Government employees out of the athletic fund; that debates are not encouraged or
held with outside schools; that attention is given to training the body in athletics,
but not the mind; that not all footVniU players are ])ona fide students; that the training
table in the dining room causes bad feeling; that j)artiality has been shown; that ou
I
CARLISLE INDIAN SCIIOOI . 1361
one orrasion an assistant quartermaster, named vStcwart, a white man, was drunk on
the grounds; that nothing was done to him; that Gus Welsh and other football boys
have been drunk without being disciplined or reprimanded; that there are no proper
night watclimeu at the school; that injustice is being done to the ])upils and certain
employees; that there is no interest taken on the part of Superintendent Friedman in
the individual pupil; no human side; no efforts made to teach the boys trades; that
the corporal punishment of the students is bad. as is also the placing of pupils in the
county jail; that the boys are allowed to go down town without their uniforms on, and
by reason of some of them being nearly white they can get liquor without question;
that certain of the school reports have been falsified; that there is lack of proper food
and that the pupils complain of not getting enough to eat; that there is lack of interest
in the schoolroom work; lack of interest in the employees, as well as the indi\adual
pupils; that a great injustice was done to a former matron, Miss Gaither; that corporal
punishment should be abolished; that the outing system has been overdone, and that
pupils have been sent home unjustly, etc.; that the failure to give instructions to the
bovs in agriculture, farming, dairying, etc., is to be deplored; that the work on the
majority of the buildings constructed on the grounds has been done by outside mechan-
ics, and the training of the school boys, who should have received" such instruction,
has been neglected, etc. Mr. ^^^litwell also testified before the joint congressional
committee. See his testimony, pages 194 to 250. inclusive.
It is ray best judgment that pupils who have the advantages of good public schools
at home should not be enrolled at Carlisle or other boarding schools.'but that the Indian
pupils who do not have the advantages at home should be given such opportunity.
I am convinced that Mr. John Whitwell, principal, is a good, honest, conscientious,
efficient employee. He is loved by the pupils and has the respect and confidence of
practically all of the employees. "I believe it to be a fact that his influence at the
.school has been exceptionally good and that conditions are now much better there than
they otherwise would have been if it had not been for his presence. He has the best
interests of the student body and the school at heart. It is true that he was insubor-
dinate in a slight degree to Supt. Friedman, who aggravated him to such an extent,
after months of persistent fault-finding and nagging, that he lost his temper and called
him a '"dirty skunk."
I do not approve of insubordination or of this statement on the part of Mr. Whitwell,
but, under all circumstances and conditions, I believe his offense should be condoned
and excused with a reprimand. I believe it to be in the best interests of the Carlisle
School and the Government service that he be retained there and continue the good
work in which he has been engaged, and I have the honor to so recommend.
Generally, 1 believe the teachers to be competent and painstaking, and with proper
influence and encouragement will -{jerform a good service. One exception I believe
to be Miss Adelaide B. Reichel, teacher, who, I am advised, is flighty and frivolous,
and whose influence at said school is not good.
INDUSTRIAL TRADES, SHOP WORK, ETC.
I urjicntcr. —There are two carpenters at said school, ^Ir. H. Gardner and ilr. John A.
Herr.
Mr. Gardner has been in the service at Carlisle for about 30 years. He states that
instead of his taking charge of the buildings, with Mr. Herr, the other carpenter, and
constructing them and working the Indian boys, outside carpenters have been em-
ployed on practically all of this work of the new buildings and all large re])airs. He
states that most all of the old buildings on the ground were constructed by him, viz,
the office and other buildings; that the boys' instructions consist mo.'stly of shoj) work,
making furniture, sa.^^h, doors, etc. ; that the outside buildings are constructed largely by
outsiders; that the discipline of the school is worse than it ever has been; a good deal
of drinking among the boys; that the detail of boys is not sufliciently large and they
have not been detailed for long enough ])ericds for many of them to learn the trade;
that the feeling among the boy jtupils toward the superintendent is very bad; that they
have hooted him and called him names.
(■arpent<;r Jolin Herr stales that he lias been employed at tlie Carlisle School for
about JO years; that he had charge of tlie car| entry work under Supts. Pratt and
Mercer, and now under Supt. Friedman; that tl:e detail of boye is now 41 — 19 in the
forenoon and 20 in the afternoon; out of that number, po.'ssibly 8 or 9 might stay and
learn the trade. Generally, it takes three years to learn the trade, the l)oys only
working a half day; many of them are sent out on details in the sunur.er and some
of the shop l)oys are put on the farms where they can not get work at the trades, whicii
'- ^fry wrong: that the boys should remain in the shops in th" siiiiiriu'i- that is. when
35601— PT 11—14 26
1362 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
the building i'< l.'tii.g done; that the construction work on the new liuildings Ims been
largely done by outside men, such as carpenters, bricklayers, plumbers, etc.; that the
athletic building was built entirely by contract:
"We carpenters, with the boys, do only the repair work, and the little wuik.
Thousands of dollars liave been paid out for help, which work should have been done
by the pupils here and they should have received that training. When we need tlie
boys in the shops they are gone. In the winter we have them when we do not v/anl
them. Last summer we had only six boys on the detail, just when I needed them most
and they should be given the advantages and instructions. In the shop we make all
the furniture work, such as tables, etc. The superintendent grants special privileges.
We shop men have no benefits. Some of the employees here have house rent, heat, and
light furnished them . I have none or the other tradesmen have none . We have to ]5ay
rent, fuel, and light. The percentage of boys who learn the trade is very small,
indeed. No interest on the part of the superintendent seems to be manifested toward
the individual students. The detail of the boys is made by the disciplinarian without
regard to the boys and without keeping the same detail so that the boys can learn the
trade."
Painter. — Mr. C. H. Cams, the painter, has been employed at said school for 13. years
past. He has now a detail of 12 boys, each a half day. He states that the boys do
not stay long enough generally to learn their trade. He has only three boys now,
who haA-e been with him for two years. They generally stay only one season, when a
boy ought to stay three or four years to learn his trade, working only the half day:
that in the past six years they have not had more than six boys to learn the trade and
to stick to it and work at it out of the detail of over 180 boys; that they keep changing
the details and putting the boys in other places, in the kitchen, on the night watch,
on the farms, etc. No one can learn a trade the way the disciplinarian makes up the
details of the boys v/ithout regard to their learning the trades; that Supt. Friedman
never talks with him as to the details or discusses the trades for the boys or appears
to take any interest in their welfare; that he has charge of the carriage painting and
upholstery; that there is a great demand for good carriage and automobile painters,
but these boys are being given no opportunity to learn the trade.
Tailor.- — W. M. Nonnant, whose salary is $900 per annum, has been at said Carlisle
Indian School for about 12 years. He is a good, competent tailor, and interested in
his work; says that during the wanter months he has a detail of about 15 boys, on an
average of seven to nine each half day, and in the summer months he does not have
half that many; sometimes during the summer months he only has one or two boys.
As a rule only 3 or 4 boys out of 15 or 20 stay long enough to learn the trade; some boys
are detailed to him only a few months; that certain boys have been detailed to him
just a few months before they knew their school term had expired and they were to
go home; in the summer months the boys detailed to his shop go on outing in the coun-
try and work on farm or attend to horses, wash dishes, wait on the table, etc. ; just now
he has a boy in the shop named Gilbert, who has been at said school for three years;
he is just detailed to him and has never been in a shop before, and he will soon have
to go home as his term expires; that the boys should stay at least three years in tht^
shop to learn the trade; that the work in the shop is making imiforms; neA'er has enough
boys to do the work.
"I could Avork now, at least, 40 boys^ — 20 or more in a shift. Wo are now getting
coatmakers down town because we have not enough help in the shop. This work
should be done here. We could also make the work for other schools. The boys
should be encouraged and paid a little money during the summer months, rather
than send them out on farms on outings. There is no repairing done on the clothes
and there is at least one-fourth more clothing used there than is necessary. There
seems to be no one to look after the clothing of the boys. Good clothing has been con-
demned and sold as rags. This great waste should be stopped. ' '
Tinsmith shop.- — Robert B. George is the tinner. He has been employed at said
school for aboiit three years and receives only $600 per annum; does not have quarters
furnished on the grounds, but has to live down town and pay car fare, ])ay rent, fuel,
and light; he asks the superintendent for quarters, but he tells liim he does not have
any for industrial trades, but when he entered the service he was of the opinion that
quarters would be furnished him, with heat and light. He complains iluil souk;
people who live on the grounds and are not Government emploj'ces are so proAided
(meaning Coach Warner). His present detail consists of 12 large hoys and 4 small
boys — 7 in the forenoon and 9 in the afternoon; they change the detail of the boys too
often; most of the boys who were in the shops last year are noAv on the farm; the large
majority of them do not stay long enough to learn the trade; the boys should remain
in the shop at least three years.
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1363
■'I haA'e no buys that have been here two years and have only two in the shop who
M'orked here last year; the details are furnished by the disciplinarian and are changed
too often. In a short time I suppose these boys will go into the country again. They
do not stay and learn the trade and they do not have tools for each boy. I take pains
in instructing the boys and explaining the use of the tools and all work to them. The
boys have complained to me that they do not get enougli to eat. They speak very
badly of the superintendent. They do not like him. They have no respect for him.
I believe I should receive an increase in salary."
I am of the same opinion, that this tinner, Robert B, George, should have his salary
increased, and so recommend.
Carriage maker. — Vir. Martin L. Lau is the carriage maker. He has been employed
at said school for nine years and is receiving a salary of $800 per annum. He states
the superintendent does not cooperate with the employees; that lie will not stand by
what he says; that he tells you to do something and then before you can do it, changes
his mind; is not fair and honorable with the employees; shows favoritism, especially
toward Bandmaster Stauffer; that the superintendent gives him no quarters on the
ground, but gives to persons not in the Government employ house rent, heat, and
light (meaning (-oach Warner); also increases the wages of his pets.
"The discipline here at the school is much worse than formerly. I have a detail
of 9 boys in the forenoon and 12 in the afternoon. The boys generally do not stay long
enough to learn the trade. They change the details and take them out to do outside
work. The athletic boys won't work. Those who are detailed at the shops leave at
half past 3 or 4 for track work. The percentage who stay in the shop to learn,
the trade is very small. Supt. Friedman sent Dubries Skenendore, a good boy,
away from the school. My brother has him down town now, employed, learning
a trade. The students are all disgruntled as to the superintendent. He does not treat
them fairly or properly. They claim they do not get enough to eat, and that asking
for the second helping does no good. A good superintendent who will be in harmony
and accord with the employees and pupils is what is needed. "
Blacksmith. — William 0. Shambaugh, the blacksmith, is a capable, competent work-
man, receiving $800 per annum. He has 13 boys detailed to him every half day.
Generally but few of the boys remain long enough to learn the trade. The details are
changed too often and are made by the disciplinarian. The superintendent takes no
interest in the boys or in the details, or in their learning their trade. The boys com-
plain of Supt. Friedman; they say they do not get enough to eat; they are very
much disgruntled; the athletic boys have a special cook and special table and food;
this also makes other boys feel badly.
" I am not given quarters on the ground in which to live, but the coach for football
is, and is not a Government employee. Once when I took leave due me, the super-
intendent took it out of my salary, and once he refused me leave to attend the funeral
of my sister's child. When quarters were available here at the school, I asked for
them but he would not give them to me. I think the following industrial teachers
are entitled to quarters, heat, and light, the same as other employees. These are the
ones who do not have them: Mr. Lau, wagon maker; Mr. Boltz, shoemaker; Mr. George,
tinner; Mr. Carixs, painter; Mr. Gardner, carpenter, and Wm. C. Shambaugh, black-
smith. Mr. Kensler, the quartermaster, curses very much in the presence of the boys. "
.Ba^-ery.— Raymond Reneker is the baker. He is a competent man and bakes good
bread. On Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday of each week he bakes about 1,000
loaves of bread. On Thursday and Friday, about 1,600 loaves each day; a total of
about 6,200 loaves a week, which averages about five barrels of flour each day. Since
about October he has had 10 boys detailed to assist him, 5 in the forenoon and 5 in
the afternoon. Some of the boys on his detail can do the baking. Mr. Kensler, the
quartermaster, told him he was short on flour.
" 1 have made an increase in bread of about 15 loaves for each meal, or about 50 a
day, since you came here. 1 did so at the request of the dining room matron, Mrs.
Zeamer, who told me tliat you had complained that the boys were not getting enough
to eat. Quartermaster Kensler told me he could not get any satisfaction from the
superintendent; did not know what to do. Saturday I baked about 160 pies for Sunday
dinner, generally make them out of raisins, apples, peaches, etc. I have no eggs
furnished for cakes on holidays, but very little lard and very little sugar. "
This bakery was badly in need of a bread room, which could be constructed by
utting in shelving and a door. There is also need of six steel racks for proofing
bread, which should be 2 feet wide, 6 feet long, 6 feet high, with 10 shelves on rollers.
There was also gi-eat need of two trucks, each about 6 feet long, 2^ feet wide, placed
on rollers, to hold bread pans and for use in the bakery. There was also need of wash-
bowls and a wash and dressing room, a place fixed for the boys and baker. 1 suggested
1364 CARLISLE IXDLVX SCHOOL.
to the quartermaster that these re]>airs be promjitly made, and tJie same were being
done prior to my leaving the grounds.
This baker. Ramoiid Reueker, has a family, is a very competent baker and faithful
employee, and he. can not well live on his present salary of §600 per annum. I
recommeiid that the same be increased.
Shoemaker shop. — Mr. John Boltz is the shoemaker, and is a \ery faithful and compe-
tent eiuployee. He has a detail of about nine boys each forenoon and afternoon. He
has had some of those detailed for six or seven months for the past two years. The
work in said shop consists mostly of repairing shoes, but lie makes about 200 pairs of
new shoes a year. The harness shop has been abolished and he does what little liamess
repairing is needed. He states he could work a larger detail and make shoes which
would be better for the pupils than those which are purchased; that this would afford
instructions to a large number of pupils and be a saving to the Government: tliat his
detail is made by the disciplinarian and no attention given by the superintendent
to the individual teaching of the boys; that his salary is |6o0 per annum and he has
had no increase since there, although he was promised it for doing extra harness-
maker's work; he has heard the boys complain that they did not get enough to eat.
Masonry. — Harry B. Lamason is the mason. His salary is %lbQ per annum. He
has detailed at times 18 or 20 boys, and again has none. The details are changed so
often that he can not teach many of the boys the trade or give thejn iiistructions; says
he could handle 50 boys; states that Supt. Friedman takes no interest in the welfare
of these boys oi' the trades; that the details are made by the disciplinarian, and no
attention whatever is paid to the keeping of boys long enough to learn the trade; that
the work in the cottages and school buildings is done by outside persons and paid for,
when the jjupils should have the benefit of such work.
Laundry. — Miss Ella Albert is the laundress. She has been employed at said Car-
lisle Indian School for about 16 years. She has two assistants, Mrs. Ida Boger and
Mary Nixon, the latter a colored woman. She has a detail of about 20 girls each half
day, and about five boys. She states that the discipline of the girls is good and that
some complaints have been made as to the superintendent.
The equipment of the laundry is good and the work in connection therewith is good.
It is oiie of the best conducted institutions on the place.
Engineering. — Harry F. Weber is the engineer. He has been employed at the
Carlisle Indian School for about 21 years. His present compensation is $1,100 per
annum. He looks after the general repairs in plumbing, steam fitting, boilers, laun-
dry, machinery of all kinds, makes all repairs, looks after the electric lights, etc. He
states that it is cheaper to purchase electric power than for them to make it; that
the boiler capacity is now barely sufficient for heating all the buildings; all the power
at said school is electric power; that his detail runs from 9 to 14 boys every half day;
the detail made to him at times is not satisfactory. Two boys are detailed to fire at
night. He states that at times it is hard to get material to make the necessary repairs; '
that Supt. Friedman generally ignores him, passes him by and will not speak to him.
The superintendent takes no interest in the boys.
"I am instructing the boys all that I can. They generally give me the same detail,
and I have had some b<\vs two and three years. The superintendent never says any-
thing or gives any instructions as to anything. I am supposed to smell it. The
discipline of the school is very bad. It is better just now that you are here. The
boys came home all hours of the night imtil you came. The boys dislike the super-
intendent very much. I have never heard a boy say a good word of him. I believe
Principal Whitwell is an honest and worthy man.
"He has been persecuted by Mr. Friedman because he is supposed to ha\'e given
information to Mr. Pearis. Athletics are given first consideration, and professional
athletics are not good for the students. These athletic boys are unable to work, or
won't. The school and industrial teaching is made a secondary consideration to
athletics and football. In my judgment, instruction in gardening, dairying, school,
academic, and industrial work should come first."
Pri-id shop. — Arthur G. Bnnvn is the printer, and I must say, in justice to him, that
he runs a very good institution. The printing office is excei)tio]ially clean and neat,
and everything is in order. He has a detail of 20 boys in the forenoon and 21 boys
in the afternoon at the present time. Fourteen of these boys have been in said print-
ing office for two or three years, and 25 boys are new (letail. The disciplinarian
makes the details, l)ut he insists that the same hoys he detailed right along, and he is
generally sui)ported in his wishes; says Su])t. Friedmnn seems to take very little
interest in the work of the !)oys, except that lie sent some as outing ])rinters.
This printing office is one of the best coiuducted institutions in connection with
said school. In connection with this printing oiiice, I desire to draw your attention
to the afhdavit of the former printer, Mr. E. K. Miller, "Exhibit T." Mr. Miller is
is now occupying a smaller position at Chilocco. In said affidavit Mr. Miller tells
I
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. . 1365
of seeing beer wagons- deliver cases of beer at the houses or quarters of Mr. Xori, chief
clerk; Mr. Claude M. Stauffer, bandmaster, and Mr. Glenn S. Warner, coach. He
also tells of being present at 8upt. Friedman's house at an entertainment where liquor
was served; that he does not consider Supt. Friedman truthful or reliable; that he
has practiced methods decei\ing the public in issuing statements from the printing
office; that he made printed statements which were false; that he made misrepre-
sentations to the Post Office Department in connection with the entry through the
mails of the Redman; that he saw more drunkenness at Carlisle in one year than at
Chilocco in seven years among the bov pupils; that he lived next door to Supt.
Friedman and that he and his wife would often hear Mr. and Mrs. Friedman quarreling,
and that the language of Mr. Friedman was anything but that of a gentleman, and
was profane and obscene; that he has seen a lady guest of Mrs. Friedman smoking
cigarettes on the front porch of the superintendent's house; that Supt. Friedman's
method of securing complimentary newspaper notices was to write them up himself
and send them in copy form to the newspapers, where they would be printed, and
then reprinted in the Carlisle papers and the Redman and credited to the other news-
papers; that some of the matter which was thus sent out, he printed himself for Mr.
Friedman; that this was a common practice of getting complimentary notices.
He states that certain football boys were eiu-olled at said school for the specific
purpose of playing football; that he was at Coach Warner's house, on the grounds, on
one occasion when they served beer. He complains that there was lack of backbone
or discipline; insincerity of purpose; desire to see the students have a good time;
absolute power in the hands of a man who had no connection with the service other
than to make athletes (Coach Warner), a man with no interest in the moral welfare
of the Indians, letting the nonessential, superficial side of life have the right of way,
which brought about a condition that was deplorable and against which it was next
to impossible to achieve character-building results. The athletic spirit was urged
and allowed to predominate to such an extent that everything else seemed of a sub-
ordinate consideration. It was easy to imagine "Pop" Warner the real superintend-
ent.
"I never knew of Coach Warner's orders being countermanded. His power after
Mr. Leupp left the service was absolute. When it came to members of my depart-
ment joining the athletic teams or the boys going to practice at all hours, being away
on trips, I had no voice in the matter. Social affairs were carried to the extreme.
Expenditure of money by the students to dress and the cost of parties were beyond
all good sense. Extravagance seemed to be encouraged. It was no uncommon thing
for the boys of the athletic teams to be drunk and cause trouble. Thorpe was among
them. Once I was told that the students had stolen liquor from the refrigerator on
the porch of the residence of Supt. Friedman and became drunk. This came froma
young lady who worked there. Both the athletic director and the director of music
seemed independent of other departments."
These industrial teachers all ajipeared before the joint committee and gave testi-
mony, the pages of same being indexed. Your attention is respectfully invited to
same.
From the above you will observe that it is the opinion of practically every one of
the industrial teachers connected with said school that Supt. Friedman paid no
attention to the industries or to the welfare of the individual students or to their being
taught trades; pays no attention to the details, allows them to be changed so often
that only a very small percentage of the boys become proficient in any of the trades,
and I respectfully submit that there is no justification for such neglect in the teach-
ing of the boy pupils these important trades.
On page 17 of the Annual Report of the Carlisle Indian School for the fiscal year
ending June 30. 1912. appears the following:
"Carlisle Indian School lays special stress on instruction in agriculture. * * *
The instruction in agi-iculture is of the most practical character. Thorough instruction
is given in the classroom in nature stndy and the elements of agricultine * * *."
Again, on page 21, of said annual report:
"The Indian boy and girl can obtain here such a knowledge of the useful industries,
for which there is a demand in the section of the country in which he lives, as will
enal)le him to earn a good living for hirn.self and family * * *.
"In all forms of constructive work, in building construction, carpentry, plastering,
Macksmithing. machine work, shoemaking, l)rick laying, painting, the Indians have
no difficulty in making good.''
These writings of Supt. Friedman would be very good indeed if they were but true.
Tlie annual report of the Carlisle Indian School for the year ending June 30, 1912,
nt page 12, states, among other things:
1366 . CARLISLE IXDIAX SCHOOL.
"During the year 976 were placed at work at their trades and 2 of the girls were
training as nurses."
Practically all of these pupils were working on farms as laborers and the girls in
kitchens as hired help, as I am reliably infonned.
outinct system.
The outing system, if properly handled and carried out, is undoubtedly beneficial
to Indian students. In this connection, however, carefully selected homes to meet
the requirements of each pupil should be considered, for the welfare of each individual
pupil, as to liis moral, religious, social, and school training. Too frequently it has
been the case that but little attention has l)een paid to tliis feature of the outing
system, the idea seemingly having been to send out as many pupils as possible and
make as good a showing as possil)le in the amount earned by the outing pupils. Force
of numbers rather than carefully selected homes to meet the requirements of each
individual pupil has been the case.
The girls who are sent on outing receive wages varying from $5 to $12 per month.
A general average of $7 or $8 a month would be about what they receive, wliile the
boys receive an average of about $14 or .|15 per month.
Mrs. La Flesche, the outing matron, states that the idea of Supt. Friedman seems
to be to make the nimiber of outing pupils each year larger rather than to take pains
to procure ])roper homes for the pupils: that Supt. Friedman is constantly urging that
pupils be sent out under the outing system; that the l)oys and girls are forced out (o
work on the farms and in the kitchens.
When the pupils go to the public schools under this outing s\^stem they receive no
salary. The pupils have to pay their railroad fare one way when they go on the outing.- .
The moneys are all turned over to the superintendent and they receive one-fourth uf
the salaries which they earn while in th? corntry on outings; then they can use one-
half of what is deposited and the balance is turned over to them when the period of
their enrollment expires. ^lany pupils who have been taken from their homes,
where they had public-school facilities are forced into the country on this outing
system to work for a mere pittance, and in many cases attend country public schools
ttiat are no better, or as good, as they left at home.
The patrons of this school who are anxious to emploj- these Indian boys and girls
are, as a rule, not philanthropists. Their idea is to procure cheap labor on their
farms and in their kitchens, and the fact is that these Indian pupils receive about
one-half of what they would have to pay white labor for performing the same service.
The majority of these pupils are sent to said school by their parents witn the under-
standing that tHey are to receive academic and industrial training at the school, but
instead of same, and being taught some trade, they are forced on these outings to
work on farms and in kitchens, and in many cases attend public scriools, wlien they
might better be at home attending public schools.
Mrs. La Flesche, the outing matron, says that conditions at tne Carlisle Indian
School are very bad as regards the discipline, morals, etc.; that the pupils as a body
have no respect for Supt. Friedman; that his influence with them is not good
and not elevating; that they have jeered him and have called him names; have
thrown shoes at him; that the food is bad and not sufticient; that many pupils have
so complained; some pupils have been sent home or expelled for no just cause; and
that in the best interests of the Indians and the Carlisle Indian School a new super-
intendent is badly needed.
Mrs. La Flesche is a liighly educated, fine, cultured Indian woman, honest and
competent, and she has the best interests of this school and the Indians at heart.
Mrs. La Flesche testified before the joint commission, and her testimony will be
found on page 1 et al. Your attention is respectfully invited to same.
Miss L. M. Johnston is the girls' field agent. She has been employed at the Carlisle
Indian School for seven years and for the past one and one-half years nas been acting
as field agent. She states that last summer they nad about 250 girls on the outing
system; that at present there are 84 girls on outing. She states that these girls are
employed as assistants and perform practically the same duties as a hired girl— cook-
ing, washing dishes, sweeping, making beds, etc; that these girls generally receive
from $0 to §!10 a month, wliile white and negro girls for the same service receive
generally $5 a week; that many of the girls attend public schools for 100 days each
year, during which ])eriod they receive no pay; that they are in the coiuitry and
m suburban homes; generally their conduct is very good; there is not muclx trouble
with the girls that are out in the winter, but in the summer with a large number tnere
is a good deal of trouble. She says the greatest troul^le is from indifference, untruth-
fulness, imprudence, carelessness, etc.; that the girls generall\- are in good homes
I
CARLISLE IXDL\N SCHOOL 1367
and there is but little iminorality now among them: she has known of but one case
this winter. She says the patrons are not philanthropists and, with few exceptions,
pimply want cheap labor; that generally the influence of the patrons is good; that
the pupils generally make good progress in the public shools; that the Governnxent
furnishes the pupils with their clothing while on these outings; that the girls and
bo>-e are persuaded to go on the outings by Supt. Friedman and he urges her
to send them out, the object bein^ to have more wages and make a better showing.
. She believes the pupils should be influenced and taught here to do what is right and
not be made to go into the country; that there is no domestic science taught on the
grounds, no house instruction; that many of these pupils who go on the outings come
from homes just as good as those in wliich they are placed and have just as good public
schools at home.
David H. Dickey is the boys' outing agent, his present salary being $900 per annum.
1 have heretofore in this report mentioned Mr. Dickey as having whipped four boys
in the jail when Coach Warner, Bandmaster Stauffer, and others were present.
Mr. Dickey is out in the field most of the time looking after the boys. In the sum-
mer he states he has about 400 boys out in the country, and mostly all working on
farms; that probably not more than 20 or 25 are employed at trades, and those who are
so employed are principally helper.-!, blacksmiths, carpenters, and painters; that he
arranges for and places the boys in the homes, and adjusts their troubles at the farms;
looks after the runaways, etc.; that he generally tries to put the boys with patrons of
their owu religion, and tries to see that they are placed in good homes wnith good people.
Mr. Dickey also states that he whipped two boys in the country at the request of the
school-teacher. He states that the discipline at the Carlisle "Indian School is very
bad; that the feeling of the students against Supt. Friedman is very bitter; that the
boys are rebellious; that the officers and boys are all in rebellion; that there is no
head at the school; that the girls are very bitter against the matron, Miss Ridenour.
He states that he had once been instructed by Supt. Friedman to get evidence against
John McGinness, a former Indian boy student at ('arlisle, who had returned to Carlisle
and obtained employment. He believes that some bad, outlaw boys are sent to said
school .
It appears also to have been one of the rules of Supt. Friedman to permit none
of the students or graduates of the Carlisle Indian School to remain in the territory
in the vicinity of Carlisle, the boimdaries of which he arbitrarily fixed as his outing
district. Students whose terms of enrollment had expired or graduates or students
who might have learned trades at the Carlisle Indian School were prohibited from
seeking employment or procuring situations within said outing district, and numer-
ous instances were related to me where Indian pupils who were no longer students
of the Carlisle Indian School had been forced out of their positions and made to leave
the district, on the theorj^ that their influence was bad on the outing students.
Also, these former students have been denied access to the grounds of the Carlisle
Indian School by Supt. Friedman.
One Sam Sonock, who has for the past eight years been employed in the Pennsyl-
vania Railroad shops at Altoona, Pa., and who received his education at the Car-
lisle Indian School, was denied access to the grounds, and he told me that Supt.
Friedman had written to the foreman of the Pennsylvania Railroad shops, tr\-ing
to have him dismissed from the service of said railroad company, charging that
he influenced pupils to run away from the Carlisle Indian School, which he strenu-
ously denies. He speaks of the case of Francis Greanbaum, a student who had
run away from the Carlisle school and who came to him at Altoona, and for whom
he secured employment in the railway shops. This pupil was later arrested and
returned to said school. Sonock says he was returned on the order of Coach Warner
la^t fall because he was a football player. Subsequently he again ran away from the
said school and went to St. Louis, Mo., where, on January 3, 1914, he was found in
the railway yards with both legs cut off below the knees, and Sonock says this boy
would be all right and at work in the Pennsylvania Railroad shops at Altoona to-day
if ho had been left alone.
Anol her case whicli I desire to bring to your particular attention is that of Montreville
Yuda, a former pupil and graduate of the Carlisle Indian School, and who is now
running a small store in Carlisle. After his graduation he returned home, up in
northern New York, but subsequently returned to Carlisle wliere he was acquainted,
and obtained a job. He states that Supt. Friedman made him lose job after job in
Carlisle, put the police on him, and tried to have liim put in jail or run out of town.
Your attention is iuAdted to his te.stimony before the joint commis.'^ion, page 102,
et seq.
-Another rase is that of Morris Huff, whose five-year term at said Carlisle School
expirod in July, lOLS. This boy is 20 years of age and is employed by some good
1368 OATil.lSL.E llsDIAK SCliOOL.
people out in the country. He has been forced by the superintendent to a^ain sign
up at the school ap;ainst his earnest protest, and the money derived from his labor to go
through the superintendent's office.
This is no way for these Indians boy pupils to acquire independence and self-
reliance.
Lewis Schweigman is a Sioux Indian boy from the Rosebud (S. Dak.) Reservation,
who completed his term at the Tarlisle Indian School during the sumn^er of 1913
and returned home. At the solicitation of Supt. Friedman, who wrote him, he
brought back some students from the reservation to the said school, and he was told by
Mr. Friedman that he could take up the trade of sign-painting; instead, he was put
to work as a janitor in the school building, and finally expelled, or sent home, without
just cause.
This boy obtained employment as a painter at Grayson. 6 miles from Carlisle, and
he was fearful that he would be disturbed by Supt. Friedman in his position, and
he appealed to me for protection. I told him to hold up his head like a man and go
to work, and so long as he behaved liimself, did not drink any liquor, and obeyed
the laws of this country, no one would bother him. This boy is of age, good habits, a
good, clean, bright, intelligent boy, has high ideals, is living with a good family as a
member thereof, and working for the man.
This boy gave testimony before the joint commission. See liis testimony at ])age 300.
When he cam^e to the Carlisle Indian School, at my request, to testify before said joint
commission, he was ordered off the grounds by the disciplinarian under instructions
from Supt. Friedman.
STATEMENTS AND COMPLAINTS BY OTHER CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL EMPLOYEES.
Mr. E.E. McKean, the disciplinarian, states that conditions at said school are very
bad indeed; that the pupils have no respect for the superintendent; they jeer him
and call him names, and have thrown old shoes at him. He can not maintain dis-
cipline under present conditions; that some of the boys are being put in the county
jail unnecessarily and boys have been whipped wrongfully.
"I filed a complaint against Ethel Williams, Paul Jones, and Charles Kelsey, who
were put in the county jail at the request of Supt. Friedman. This dirty, filthy jail
is no place for these pupils. The association with criminals there is undoubtedly
bad. I have received instructions heretofore from Supt. Friedman to try to get
evidence against Montreville Yuda, a former student of this school, to get him run
out of town.
"The only thing that will relieve conditions at this school is to have a good super-
intendent placed in charge, or the school will go to the bad." •
Disciplinarian McKean also testified before the joint commission. See his testi-
mony at page 492.
Mrs. A. Dietz, Indian art teacher at said school, states that the general conditions
there are very bad as to discipline, morals, and drinking; that many of the boys and
girls have been unjustly treated; that Principal John Whitwell is a good, honest,
faithful employee, who has the best interests of the school and the student body at
heart; that a new superintendent is needed in the best interests of said school.
Mrs. Dietz also testified before the joint commission. See her testimony at page 310.
Harvey K. Meyer, clerk, salary $1,260 per annum, who was transferred to said
school from the Haskell Institute, and who is a competent, conscientious, faithful
official, says:
"There is great lack of discipline at said school. The student body have no respect
for the superintendent, who appears to take no r?al interest in their welfare. There
have been many cases of wrong action on the part of the superintendent, and I men-
tion those against Lewis Schweighman, Morris Huff, Montreville Yuda, Sylvia Moon,
Gus Welsh, and others. Supt. Friedman told me that some of these students were
mixed up in a movement against him. Conditions are gradually getting worse this
past year. The former matron. Miss Gaither, was Tiot properly supported by the
superintendent. Many students complain that they do not get enough to eat. There
is great lack of discipline and cooperation with employees. The superintendent does
not seem to care. The solution of the problem is that we need a good superintendent
who can handle the situation, a big man as a leader, one wlio will get the best out of
the employees and the students. Let our work, instead of the newspapers and maga-
zines, spread our glory. Some students were put in jail unjustly; others who did
things worse were not hurt. There is no justice and no like treatment in similar cases.
The students are not being helped, and are losing valuable time. In some cases the
boys are being hurt."
CARLISLE INmAK SCIIOOJ.. 1369
Mr. Harvey K. Meyer also tewtifii'd ))cf'.rc tlie joint cummissidii. S"e liis testimony
at page 514.
Wallace Denny, assistant (li.sciplinariaii, in charge of the smaller boys' quarters
is an Indian and received his education at this institution. Mention lias heretoforo
been made that he had struck the boys with his fist f)n various occasions, which should
not be perrnitted. Mr. Denny stated to me, in substance, that the student body
were all against Su])t. Friedman: lluil he can not s:et along with the pupils or contro'l
them; that the discipline is bad and contijiuallv getting worse; that yome bad boys
who are nearly white have been atlmitted t,(j said school who had formerly been "in
reformatories; that some nf the boys had been whipped and fined.
"The feeling is better now that"you are liere. but this thing can not continue, and
there is going to be an outI)reak. Many pupils complain they do not get enough to
eat, and the boys are continually asking for more l)read. It is" much easier to control
a bunch of well-fed boys, who will then feel lietter. There is a continual fight between
the superintendent and the students. A\'ha1 is needed is a good, strong man, who
will reach the heart of the student body, and students of belter characters should be
entered— Indians, not nearly white people. No suits of the pupils in my dormitory
have been mended for the past two years."
Mr. Denny also gave testimony before the joint conunission, page 107, to which
}our attention is respectfully invited.
Mrs. Wallace Denny, a former employee and outing manager, and the wife of the
assistant disciplinarian, \\'allace Denny, stated to me that she received her education
at the Carlisle Indian School and hacl its best interests at heart, as also that of the
Indian pupils; that she hatl never seen such a bad condition at said scliool as now
that there was a great lack of discipline and morals; that the pupils did not like or
respect Supt. Friedman; that the girls complained of the meals served, they did
not get enough bread to eat: many employees do not like the superintendent: that
he is influenced by Bandmaster Stauffer; that some of the pupils are short of shoes
and clothing, and there is a great demand for better food; that the pupils are in an
ugly rebellious mood.
Mrs. Denny also testifie<l lief ore the joint commission. See her testimony at o-v^e
180. • ^ "^
Mrs. Ora L. Knight, assistant matron, who sometim.es stays in the dining room
during the service of meals, says that she has iieard complaint as to lack of "bread,
knives, forks, spoons, etc. ; that napkins are only issued once a Aveek; that the dining
room is not what it ought to be.
Dr. Walter Rendtorff, physician at said school, has only been there since January
1 of this year, having been transferred to said school from Anadarko, Okla. I believe
Dr. Rendtorff to be a cajmble, courteous, conscientious official and a good doctor.
He stated to me that he was not, courteously received by Supt. Friedman on
his arrival: that he was made to feel at once that he was not wanted; that the
treatment accorded him by Supt. Friedman was not just or proper. He stated
that he believed there were some pupils at the school with mental defects and
some with such poor eyes that they should not be in school; that he found on
arrival two pupils— Susan White and Steel Slansback— with advanced cases of pul-
monary troubles; that they had to be sent home at once. He states that the general
health conditions at the school are pretty good: that there has been quite an epi-
demic of measles recently, and there are 18 cases of glandular tuberculosis, quite a
little trachoma: that there are seven cases of trachoma which should be operated on;
some of them are comparatively new students; that the equipment of the hospital
is good, the nurse is good, and so are the hospital girls; considers the discipline at
the school now very bad ; has had to send one girl home recently on account of her
condition.
In connection with the health conditions of said school I desire to refer to the testi-
mony of Supt. Friedman before said joint commission, at page 643, wherein he
says the number of deaths at said school in 1888 was 21 and in 1889, 18. That is
very tnie. He picked out the two years when the Apaches were transfen-ed to Car-
lisle regardless of their condition, and picked these two years to reflect on the admin-
istration, if possible, of Gen. Pratt. He failed to state, however, that during the fol-
lowing years the death rate was very low, and that some years, with a larger attend-
ance of pupils at said school, there had been no deaths. For your information I here
give the following:
In 1892 there were 6 deaths out of 926 pupils.
In 1893 there were 6 deaths out of 911 pupils.
In 1894 there was 1 death out of 818 pupils.
In 1895 there were 8 deaths out of 842 pupils.
In 1896 there were no deaths out of 898 pupils.
1370 CARLISLF. INDIAX SCHOOL.
In 1S97 there were 2 deaths out, of 920 pupils.
In ISnS there were 4 deaths out of 1,080 pupils.
In 1899 there were 4 deaths out of 1.090 pupils.
In 1900 there were 6 deaths out of 1,218 pupils.
In 1901 there were 4 deaths out of 1,174 pupils.
In 1902 there were 2 deaths out of 1,234 pupils.
In 1903 there were no deaths out of 1,298 pupils.
In 1904 there were 8 deaths out of 1,173 pupils.
I simply quote the above figures to show the unfairne.ss attempted ])y Suj)erintei)d-
ent Friedman in his testimony.
John M. Rudey, who was former assistant disciplinarian at said school from June,
1910. to December. 1912, and acting disciplinarian from then until April 7, 1913, at
the large boys' quarters, told me that he was never supported by the superintendent,
Moses Friedman; that he is capable of instilling military discipline, which is iiot
allowed. He states that the students hate Superintendent Friedman, have no respect
for him. and that both the boys and girls call him "Old Mosc," "Old Sheeny," etc.
He says that Principal Whitwell is a good, honest, earnest man. and a hard worker.
On June 28. 1913, Mr. Rudev wrote a letter to Secretary Lane giving his views
as to conditions at the Carlisle Indian School, a copy of which I herewith inclose for
vour information and mark "Exhibit LI," to which your attention is respectfully
invited. . i- , ^r nr r, .
Nelson D. Simon, a pupil at said school for five years past, president of the l . M. O. A .
work a good, earnest, honest young man, stated to me that about a year ago, when
Dr J W W. Walker was in charge of the Y. M. C. A. work of the Carlisle Indian
School they had a membership of 269; that great good was being accomplished among
the pupils by Dr. Walker, and that the influences of the Y. M. C. A. Avere exception-
ally good for the young men. He states that Dr. Walker was treated unjustly and
compelled to leave the school work, and that now the Y. M. C. A. work has dwin-
dled down so that they have only 28 members and only three or four paid-up mem-
bers; that the superintendent, "Moses Friedman, keeps appointing different em-
ployees to act, but none can seem to handle the situation, which is now going to the
bad; that Superintendent Friedman lent no aid or encouragement to said associa^-
tion', which association was a great help and encouragement and doing a great good
among the pupils, . , . ,
Nelson D Simon filed with me two letters, one addressed by the student boys,
former members of the Y. U. C. A. at Carlisle Indian School, dated April 2, 1913, to
Dr. James W. W. Walker, and the other a reply from Dr. W' alker, dated April 16, 1913,
to which your attention is invited as showing the good effect this Y. M. C. A. teach-
ing by Df Walker had on the pupils of said school and its employees; that such
influence should be encouraged rather than killed off, as in this case, by Superin-
tendent Friedman.
These letters I attach together and mark "Exhibit Ml."
MISCELLANEOUS.
Mr. August Kensler has been at said school for about 211 years. He h;is charge
of the general supplies and storehouse, issues all supplies, and bus charge of the
property list. Mr. Kensler has had a very good system in vogue and has been
doing a" fairly good work. He has resigned, I am informed, to take effect March 1,
and I desire 'to state that his resignation was not occasioned by reason of my investi-
gation, and so far as I am advised I know nothing in regard to his property accounts
being wrong. i i c i
On IVbruary 4, 1911, I convened a board of survey, which condemned a lot of worth-
less articles. *As members of said board I appointed August Kensler, quartermaster;
Henry Gardner, carpenter; and William C. Shambaugh, blacksmith. Several tons
of worthless articles were condemned and destroyed by fire and a few articles con-
demned for sale, of which your office will be duly apprised by the superintendent 8
ofiice at Carlisle. ■ , , j
With relation to there being no ({uarters for the industrial teachers on tJie grounds
at Carlisle, I will state that there is a two-story house between the superintendent s
magnificent home and the small boys' dormitory, which is a frame building m which
two snndl families might be comfoftably housed. This building, I understand, has
l)een ke])t for the use of guests and only a small jiortion used at n time for this ])urpose,
while these employees have been coinpelled to pay house rent. The art building,
a one-story cement-block structure, has been vacant for about a year. One large
familycoiild be housed in this building.
Mr." Claude M. Stauffer, the bandmaster, has had double the room assigned to hnn
that iie needed. The athletic coach, Mr. Warner, who was not a Government em-
I
CARLISLE TXDTAN SCHOOL. 1371
ployee, had a very large house assigned to him, which he occupied with just his wife.
It is my judgment that these vacant buildings and other buildings herein mentioned
should be allowed to be occupied by the employees and industrial teachers of said
Carlisle Indian School, who receive very meager salaries.
As heretofore stated, there are no domestic science or housekeeping apartments ou
the grounds. I believe this is one of the essential things, and that possibly some of
these buildings might be utilized for such purpose if not used for these em])loyees.
During nearly one month while I was at Carlisle I did not hear the band play.
There was never any flag salute, and the records of the athletic fund show numerous
payments made for music furnished, while this Bandmaster Stauffer was receiving
asalary of Sl,400.
I believe that the flag salute which the band would attend, and play wliile the
pupils thereafter marched to the dining room to their meals, would inspire patriotism
in the pupils and produce a good feeling at said institution.
The jail at said school is a good, clean, cement building, with six cells, lavatories,
running water, shoAver bath, steam heat, electric lights.
The athletic building is well equipped. The roof on the athletic cottage is not
good, leaks and needs repairing, and the biulding needs painting.
The grandstand has been torn down and needs repairing. The barn is in need of
repairs and painting.
One of the great necessities for said school is two night watchmen.
Mr. Frank J. \'eith, the former gardener at said school, now at the Sherman Insti-
tute, California, made athdavit to which he attached letters received from Supt.
Friedman addressed to liim at Riverside, Cal. His affidavit shows, in substance,
that during his stay at Carlisle he gave vegetables to Mrs. Friedman, at her written
request, and often without request; that his assistant, Mr. Miu-ray A. Collins, had
received written requests for vegetables from Mrs. Friedman and helped him gather
them for her; that on one occasion when taking the basket of vegetables to Mrs.
Friedman he met Quartermaster Kensler coming from the office building, and when
asked by Kensler who was buying those, told him they were for Mrs. Friedman.
He also gave flowers to Mrs. Friedman.
These vegetables were not paid for, still this did not prevent Supt. Friedman from
charging him with giA'ing vegetables to the teachers' club.
This affidavit, with letters attached, I mark as one exhibit, being "Exhibit Nl."
I also inclose affidavit of one Stella V. Bear, an Indian girl, formerly employed at
Supt. Friedman's house, wliich was sent to me by Supt. W. R. Davis, Bismarck
(N. Dak.) school, at my request. This affidavit I mark "Exhibit 01."
I also inclose affidavit of Clara Spottedhorse Yellowtail, also an Indian girl, who
formerlv worked for Supt. Friedman, now at Grass Lodge. Mont. This affidavit I
mark "Exhibit PI."
I also inclose letter dated February 6, 1914, addressed to me by Stella Bradley,
and another letter of even date addressed to me by Anna Miller, These letters show
that Bandmaster Stauffer purchased a §25 mandolin from an Indian girl, named
Rosa Sampson, at said school for $5 and immediately sold it to Stella Bradley for $15.
These letters I attach together and mark as one exhibit, being "Exhibit Ql."
I took the affidavit of one Davis Sawmick, a ( hippewa Indian boy, 15 years of age,
who has been enrolled at the Carlisle Indian School since 1908. This affidavit shows
that this boy worked on a farm for $5, $7, $10, and .S12 a month, up to November, 1913,
and after five years, when his term is about to expire, he is now put to work in a
blacksniilh shoji to learn his trade, and although he attended various public schools
for a portion of this five years, he is now^ only in the second grade and has had three
weeks' experience at the trade at said school.
This affidavit 1 mark --Exhibit Rl."
I secured front August Kensler, quartermaster, a list of small surplus clothing which
is not required at the Carlisle School, and this excess clothing for small pupils should
be .'^hipped to .some other school where they can use same, rather than have it go to
waste there at the <'arlisle Indian School, and I have the honor to so recommend.
There are J2(i overcoats, various sizes; 115 shirts; 300 canton flannel drawers;
93 pairs pants; 10.\ dozen boys' merino uiiflershirls; 7 dozen boys' stimmer drawers;
20 dozen boys' summer undershirt^;; 40 dozen boys' long hose; 4 dozen misses' winter
ve.sts; 250 Tarn o' Shanters.
These unnecessar>- supplies for this school should be promptly shipped where they
are needed. This list I inclose and mark as "'Exhibit Si."
In accordance with instructions recei\ed from the honorable Commissioner of
Indian Affairs, I delivered a telegram to Musical Director ( laude M. Stauffer, sus-
pending him. Copv of mv letter quotii..- .said telegram is herewith inclosed and
marked --Exhibit Tl." "
1372 CARLISLE INDL\N SCHOOL.
With relation to optical and dentist bills, I have to state that pupils having money
on deposit at said Carlisle Indian School are required to pay for the same, but the
Government pays for those who have no money in the bank. This is inconsistent
and no encouragement to pupils to have a bank account. It does not seem quite fair.
It appears that two legacies were left to the Carlisle Indian School. Mary P. Ropes,
of Salem, Mass., who died in 1903, willed to the said school $2,500. This money
has been paid over and now amounts, with interest, to $2,664.03. The will of Anna
E. Peale, Philadelphia, dated December 7, 1905, bequeathed to said school the sum
of $3,000 for the maintenance and education of Indian girls. I am advised that the
trustees of said latter fund are Moses Friedman, John Lindener, and J. W. Wetzel,
attorney. I am also advised that the trustees of the Ropes fund are John Ray, attor-
ney, of Carlisle, Pa., and John W. Wetzel, an attorney of ("arlisle.
The data in relation to these trust funds are embraced in statements which I here-
with attach and mark "Exhibit Ul."^
CASE OP C. B, BEHNEY.
By letter date.l February 3. 1914, the honorable Secretary of the Interior transmitted
to me letter of C. B. Behney, a former employee of the Carlisle School, for consideration
and investigation.
Mr. Behney addressed aletter, dated January 27, 1914,Harrisburg, Pa., to the honora-
ble Commissioner of Indian Affairs, complaining about his dismissal from the Carlisle
Indian School and asking to be reinstated.
About the time of receipt of said letter, Miss Anna M. Ridenour, the matron, handed
me a letter, which had been written at Harrisburg, Pa., January 27, 1914, addressed
to Miss Anna La Fernier, an Indian pupil of the Carlisle Indian School, signed "Chal-
mers, " which letter is written by said C. B. Behney.
Miss Ridenour opened this letter addressed to this Indian girl pupil, being suspicious
that it was not a proper letter. The letter addressed to this Indian girl also inclosed
a copy of a letter addressed to the honorable Commis.?ioner of Indian Affairs. In his
letter addressed to Anna La Fernier he iises endearing terms, and says, among other
things :
"Anna, if you loved me just half as much as 1 hate the 'Israelite' we would be mar-
ried by this time. Don't you think it would make the 'Jew' sit up and take notice?
Don't you remember hf)w I picked the burrs out of your hair and how slow I went
about it? I know you don't want me to call you Chippewa Squaw and I feel much
closer when I call you Anna. You know if I were superintendent you would have
lots of dancing. When are you going to teach me to tango? The next girls' town day,
couldn't you meet me in Spahr's restaurant?" etc.
Thus, it appears tliat this former employee was engaged in making love to one of
the school girls and is undoubtedly not a proper person to be employed at said school,
and I have the honor to so recommend.
I inclose the letter addressed to the honorable commissioner and the letter which he
wrote to Miss Anna La Fernier attached together, and mark as "Exhibit V-1. "
I also received a letter from the honorable Secretary of the Interior, dated Februaiy
6, 1914, inclosing a letter from Moses Friedman, superintendent, addressed to the
honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs, wherein he recommended that Charles
Kelsey, a Winnebago Indian boy who committed an assaidt on Disciplinarian McKepn
when he (Kelsey) was intoxicated, should be returned to his home witliout.delay.
I have heretofore mentioned this case of Charles Kelsey in this report and stated
that he had publicly apologized to the school, and that I believed it to be to the best
interests of the boy to have him retained at said school, and I have the honor to so
recommend.
This letter I inclose and' mark ' ' Exhibit Wl . ' '
I inclose the affidavit of Alice Guest, a former employee of said school, now at
Riverside, Cal., with relation to Supt. Friedman, which I mark "Exhibit XI."
By letter dated January 30, 1914, the honorable Secretary of the Interior trans- J
mitted to me the file in connection with the complaint made by Supt. Friedman I
relative to the conduct of Roy L. Mann, teacher at said Carlisle Indian School. I
investigated this case and took the affidavit of Mr. Roy Mann, which I inclose here-
with for your information and mark "Exhibit Yl."
As late as September 19, 1914, Supt. Friedman wrote of Mr. Mann in the Carlisle
Arrow, who was selected as secretary for the Y. M. C. A., that the selection was a
most admirable one; that—
"He is a young man of splendid education and experience in teaching. * * *
He is a man of clean haViits and strong character, with high ideals and pleasing per-
sonality * * *."
I
CARLISLE INDL\N SCHOOL. 1373
It appears that shortly thereafter vS\ipt. Friedman had a sudden change of heart
with relation to Mr. Mann, becan.se he believed him to be friendly with Principal
John AVhitwell, and he chiM-ged Mr. Mann with criticizing the .school, in conjunction
with Miss Sweeney and others, forming a coterie with Mr. Whitwell to stir uj> unrest
among the student body, etc.
In order to pave the way for writing this letter derogatory to Mr. Maun, he wrote
a couple of letters to Mr. Mann which are attached to said corres])ondencc, charging
him with di.'^turbance in the athletic building and using obscene and ])rofane lan-
guage, etc. Mr. Mann states, under oath, that all of the charges are absolutely false
and untrue and that he never criticized the conduct of the suj^erintendent of the
( 'arlisle Indian School until two or three weeks ago: that he knows Principal Whitwell
to be a good, true, honored luan; that Mr. A\hil\vell had never criticized his school-
room work; that his conduct in the athletic l)uilding was entirely proper;, that he is a
Christian young man and does not use profane language: that he never has had any-
thing to do with Miss Sweeney and nothing in common with her; that he has not been
engaged in stirring up trotiV)le, nor talking about the su]ierintendent or encouraging
or influencing the sttidents in any manner against Supt. Friedman: that Supt. Fried-
man some time ago called him to the office and told him that he should not believe
things he heard against him on the grounds, "and hinted about my being friendly
with Mr. ^Vhitwell," and he believes that Svipt. Friedman's charges against him
have been because "I am a friend of Mr. Whitwell and he has seen me talking to
Congressman lUipley."
I also talked with several of the boys who roomed at the athletic quarters to ascer-
tain whether they had ever made com})laint about the conduct of Teacher Roy L.
Mann in the athletic quarters, as complained of by Supt. Friedman.
Edward Bracklin said he never complained to anyljody and had no cause to
complain.
Peter Jordan said he never complained of Mr. Mann and never had any cause to
do so.
Elmer Bush, captain of the football team, said that Si!]>t. Friedman sent for him
and questioned him about Mann, and he said he was all right in every respect except
that he sometimes smoked in his room.
Fred Broker said that Mann came in one night and talked loud and woke him up;
that he talked of same to Mr. Mann and to the janitor of the building, Mr. Hill, but
that he never complained to Stipt. P>iedman about it.
Peter Calack stated that Mr. Mann came in late one night and made a noise and
woke him up, and he complained of it to the janitor, Mr. Hill.
Joe Guyon said that he had never made any complaint.
Charles Coons said that Mr. Mann came in late one night and laughed and m.ade some
noise, and that he spoke of it to some of the boys but never complained.
Gus Lookaround said that Mr. Mann stayed up late and made some noise, but that
he had never complained .
William Garlow, a football boy, who appears to have had some trouble with Teacher
Mann, said that Mann made a noise in the quarters, came in late, and that he had
cursed Supt. Friedman; that Supt P>iedman asked him about it and he told him .so.
So, it appears that the only person who actually made any complaint about Teacher
Mann was William Garlow, with whom Mann had had sonte trouble; that Garlow did
not complain tmtil he was questioned by Supt. Friedman.
I am convinced that Roy L. Mann is a clean, capable young man, of good habits,
does not use liquor, and has smoked sortie in his room. I do not believe he is a man
who uses profane language and I do not believe there is any justification for the charges
brought against him by Su})t. Friedman. This is the opinion, aL*i>. of a Mrtmlier of
other employees of said school with whom I talked.
I attach his affidavit to the papers transmitted and mark this "Exhibit Yl," and
direct your attention to same.
CHAROKS UY R. H. PRATT, HRIGADIER GENERAL, UNITED .ST.\TES ARMY.
There were transmitted to me by Hon. Cato Sells, Counni.'^sioner of Indian .\ffairs,
January 20, 1914, charges preferred again.st Moses Friedman, sujjerintendent of the
Carlisle Indian School, by R. H. Pratt, who charges malicious, false, .slanderous
accusations, unbecoming a gentleman and Governuient ollicial, against said Moses
Friedman, the particular specifications being that said M(jses Friedman did ])repare
and cause to be ]irinted, or c-ansed others to prepare and have ])rinted, or did encourage
others to prepare and print, an article in a widely circulated public new.sjiaper, to wit,
"The Public Ledger," Philadelphia, Pa., under date of January 2S, 1914, under the
heading, "Gen. Pratt alleged to be seeking revenge on Moses Friedman," in which
1374 CAELISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
the I'ollowiiig and other expressions were used : ' " Politics, revenge, and ambition are
behind the charges," etc.
I ascertained that a newspaper reporter of Philadelphia, by the name of Ben K.
Pialeigh, wrote two special articles for the Ledger about the Carlisle Indian School;
that said Ben K. Raleigh came to Carlisle and went out to the Indian school and had
a conversation with Supt. Friedman; also that he got most of his information which
he did not receive from Moses Friedman from one Hugh Miller, a newspaper corre-
spondent of Carlisle, Pa., who is connected with the Carlisle Evening Herald and
who sends out press dispatches for the Associated Press, and has been paid hundreds
of dollars out of the athletic association funds for no other purpose than to send out
flattering statements about the Carlisle Indian School, Supt. Friedman, the football
team, etc.
Said Hugh Miller has been constant and persistent in his writing of articles for the
public press, which he has had printed at ( 'arlisle and elsewhere, complimentary to
Supt. .Friedman and derogatory to the Government and its officers making this investi-
gation since this investigation has been started, and I am firmly convinced that this
Ben K. Raleigh got his information largley from Hugh Miller and from Moses Fried-
man, superintendent; that he was biased and prejudiced and his opinions colored by
them is undoubtedly true.
In Supt. Friedman's testimony before the joint commission he took occasion to
further condemn Gien. Pratt and said that one, John Hays, of Carlisle, had stated that
Gen. Pratt wanted to be appointed superintendent of the Carlisle school. He said
that Bandmaster Stauffer had heard the same thing from Asst. Disciplinarian Denny,
and that he had also been told so by Dr. Lake, of New York State, but he could not
give Dr. Lake's address. Mr. Denny denies that he ever made any such statement to
Bandmaster Stauffer.
In his sworn testimony before the joint commission Supt. Friedman denies that he
gave this information to this newspaper correspondent, but I want to say that I believe
he could not have received this information from any other source except Mr. Friedman
or Hugh Miller.
On my first talk with Supt. Friedman after his return to the Carlisle Indian School
from Washington, he stated to me the very same things which appear in this newspaper
article against Gen. Pratt. I told him then that Gen. Pratt had nothing to do with the
charges that had been filed. He then warned me against Mr. Denny, the disciplina-
rian, and against Mr. Whitwell and others. I told him frankly that I would not be
influenced by anyone, but would make an honest investigation; that it was unneces-
sary for him to attempt to prejudice me against anybody.
While it is not proven that the superintendent did actually give out this informa-
tion, I am thoroughly convinced that both he and his paid subsidized press reporter,
Hugh Miller, gave this information to Ben K. Raleigh, who wrote the article for the
Philadelphia Ledger.
With relation to Gen. Pratt being an applicant for the position of superintendent of
Carlisle, I desire to state that I have seen copies of letters addressed by Gen. Pratt
to Gov. Woodrow Wilson, President elect, dated February 8, 1913, in which, among
other things, he said:
"I am past 72, and in no case an office seeker."
Again, in his letter dated March 13, 1913, addressed to Hon. Franklin K. Lane,
Secretary of the Interior, he said:
"A friend in Carlisle writes that the people there are urging the administration
that I be returned as superintendent of the Indian school.
"This is a needless waste of time and energy. It is impossible that I again, in any
way, become a subordinate under the Indian Bureau, and I have always so advised
my friends."
This letter was replied to by Hon. Franklin K. Lane, Secretary of the Interior,
March 13, 1913, as follows:
"My Dear Gen. Pratt: I have your letter of the 15th instant, and note that you
do not wish to be considered for appointment in the Indian Service.
" \'ery truly, yours,
"Franklin K. Lane."
In his letter, dated March 15, 1913, addressed to James W. W. Walker, Y. M. C. A.,
Carlisle, Pa., (Jen. Pratt say.s, among other things;
"I am sorry that anybody in Carlisle should feel called upon to urge the President
to restore me to the Carlisle Indian School, because it is a pure waste of effort. I
could not return to Carlisle as superintendent of the Indian school under any cir-
cumstances that I can imagine will arise * * *."
CATIT.IST.E INDIAN SCHOOf,. 1375
The- above sliows conclusively lliat Sii])t. Friedman's charj^es made to me ai^ainst
<ien. Fralt were absolutely false, and 1 believe him to be responsible for (he article
which a}>]>eared in the news]ja]>er reiteratinii the very same charges which he made
lo me.
There has been considerable boolleggiiif^ going on in Carlisle and the student boys
have been able to secure a good deal of liquor, and in some cases have returned to
the grounds under the influence of liquor and brought liquor on the grounds.
I have the honor to recommend that the >uperintendent be instructed to issue an
order lo all of the boy pupils that they will not lie permitted to go down town, in the
town of Carlisle, or to Harrisbrrg, or luwns adjoiTiing Carlisle, unless they are dressed
ill I heir uniforms, the reason beii'g thai many of t^e^e young men are nearly white,
:ind when dressed in citizens' clothes can not be distinguished from a white man and
could easily obtain licjuor, but with the uniforms on it will advertise to everyone that
they are members of the student body of the Carlisle Indian School and then there
can be no excuse for selling or giving them liquor.
Furthermore, I believe that it would ]>e wise to send sonu' spi'cial licjuor olHcer to
< arlisle, under cover, every once in a whih' and see if he can not secure CA'ideTice
against these bootleggers and persons who sell liquors to these Indian boys. There
are about 15 saloons in Carlisle and the bovs seein to have had no trouble in securing
liquor.
There are other affidavits included iii "Exhibit T" liet( with which were secured
by Supervisor Brown, as follows: Airs. E. K. Miller, James Fdward Jones, Julia Jones,
Fred Bruce, IlaiTy Roberts, to which attention is invited.
The aflidavit of Mrs. E. K. Miller c(iiroborates her husband's statement as regards
the quarreling indulged in between Mr. and Mrs. Friedman.
I'he alhdavit of James Edward Jones relates to being induced by Coach Warner
to go lo Carlisle to play football f(jr a consideration.
The affidavit of Julia Jones corroborates that of her husband.
The atndavit of Fred liruce is, in effect, that some football boys, viz, James Thorp
and Cius "Welsh, drank beer at the school while he was there; that liquor was brought
there by a fellow employed in the quartermaster's office (meaning Stewart, assistant
(piaitermaster, who has been known to be drunk on the grounds and not proseciited);.
that the football boys James Thorpe and Gus Welsh were not punished; and another
boy, a football player by the name of Williams, was dnmk on the grounds and not
punished. Said affidavit also indicates that the letter written by James Thorpe
with regard to being a professi(Uial was prepared by Coach Warner.
The affidavit of Harry Roberts is with relation to his having been induced to go to
Carlisle by Coach Warner to play football, for which he received pay. This was in the
fall of 1911.
The records show that Harry Roberts, 23 years of age, was enrolled as a student at.
said school October 8, 1911, ancl discharged January 15, 1912. The books of the Carlisle
Athletic Association show that he was paid $75 per montli, and he states that he did
some clerical work in the superintendent's office; that he was placed in the office by
Coach \^'arner; he did not attend school.
This affidavit of Harry Roberts shows conclusively that he was employed by Coach
Warner to play or assist in football games at the Carlisle Indian School, for which he
received a salary, paid from the athletic funds, and that during such period he was
enrolled as a student at said school.
The testimony given by the young huly ]j\ipils of the Carlisle Indian School before
the joint commission charged Miss .\nnaH. Ridenour, matron, with being harsh, cruel,
unkind, and unjust to the girls. They said that she would not speak to them kindly
but was harsh and rude toward them and that she was unjustly severe with many of
the girl pupils and she had been the cause of having had expelled or sent home certain
of the girl pupils without just cause, et<.'.
Miss Ridenour's predecessor was a woman of kindly disposition and was much loved
by the girl students at Carlisle. It was evident that she treated them kindly and was
a sort of a mother to (hem. They could and did go to her for motherly advice and were
kindly and considerately treated. These girl pupils claim, as do also a large number
of employees, that Mi.«s Gaither, the matron, was unjustly treated by Supt. Friedman
and compelled to transfer, which was very disj)leasing to llie girl students. They
regarded Miss Gaither verj' highly and desired her to staj', and when she was transferred
and Miss Ridenour came to Carlisle as matron, they were not ])rei)ared to receive any-
body who would take the place of Miss Gaither; so it is uiuloiibtedly true that JNfiss
Ridenour was not received very kindly by the girls. 'I'liis, coupled with the informa-
tion slie received from tlie superintendent, made her harsh and severe toward llie girl
pupils.
Miss Ridenour is a good woman and undoubtedly means well, but she is unfortunate
in her disposition. She is har.-ih and severe and a strict disciplinarian. She j)rubably
1376 (JAKLTSLE INDIAN SCHOOJ..
felt that she had to be this way in order to properly control these girls. Many of these
young ladies are refined, with high ideals, and they naturally resented such cruel
treatment. They have not had the same feeling toward her as they had for the former
matron; have not felt toward her like a mother or gone to her with their troubles,
feeling that they could not do so. On occasions her severe discipline in putting girls
in the lockup and keepmg them there for some time; in permitting the whipping of
Julia Hardin by Bandmaster Stauffer; in having had a personal altercation with one
Rose Wiipper, a student at said school; with having had Sylvia Moon expelled
without just cause; and by her general harsh treatment of the girls, she has gained their
ill will and enmity to such an extent that her usefulness at said school is a thing of the
past.
The student boys have taken up the cause of the girls and every time the.y see Miss
Ridenour on the campus, going to meals, or whatever the case may be, tliey hiss and
jeer at her and yell "Put her out," and treat her very discourteously.
For these reasons, and believing also that it is in the best interests of Miss Ridenour
heivsell", I recommend that she be transferred elsewhere and a good, kind-hearted,
motherly woman l)e sent as matron in her place. This opinion is concurred in l)y the
members of the joint commission.
AA'ill H. Miller, financial clerk, has been employed at said Carlisle Indian School
tor many years. Aside from keeping books and accounts of the individual moneys
of the pupils of said school, he has kept the athletic accounts and performed other
services. He is faithful and obliging. I regard him as one of the best and mopt
trustworthy employees at said school. His salary is but $1,000 per annum, but for
several years past he has been receiving an additional sum of $35 per month, which
was paid to him from the athletic funds. This payment of additional salary from the
athletic funds will now undoubtedly cease, and for such reason I believe he should
receive additional (compensation. I therefore have the honor to recommend that his
salary be increased to $1,440 ])er annum and that he be retained as financial clerk
un ler the superintendent who may take charge of said school.
1 believe that if the ''city school plan" were adopted at said school, whereby the
pupils and officers of the various companies would govern their own student body,
that conditions regarding the disciitlino of said school would improve. I believe that
the majoritv of the student body are honorable arul high-miudorl and that the right
kiiul of a man as superintendent who would treat them kindly and a])peal to their
sense of honor and better natures would bring out the good and accomplish a wonderful
work for good at said institution . They would be loyal if properly handled and would
aid in having good discipline and suppressing liquor and in making this school, in
fact as well as in name, an institution to be proud of.
Attention is also invited to the fact that Congressman Rupley had made com])laint
to the honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs with relation to the proper conduct of
said Carlisle Indian School, and he states that he did so solely in the best interests of
the school and considered his r-ommunication a privileged one, and that shortly there-
after it became known to Supt. Friedman that he (Congressman Rupley) had filed
complaint against the way said school was being conducted, and Supt. Friedman
shortly thereafter had three of his friends, viz, Dr. A. R. Allen, of Carlisle, Pa., who
was the temporary physician at said school; Rev. George M. Diffenderfer, to whom
many payments, aggregating hundreds of dollars, had been paid out of the athletic
funds; and Fisk Goodyear, all three residents of ("arllsle, Pa., circulate a petition in
the town of Carlisle and procure signers to same, which petition stated, in substance,
that the conditions at said Carlisle Indian School were never better as to disci])line,
ni irals, health, food, use of licpior, etc,
I am also informed that these three men and the jniblic press of Carlisle, Pa., and
elsewhere, by words and publications, circulated false and damaging statements
against. Congressman Rupley and charged him with being an enemy to Carlisle,
trying to injure the school, etc., which conduct on the part of Sn])t. Moses Friedman
was highly improper and unjust, and done with the intention of reflecting unjust cri-
ticism and discredit u])on said (Congressman A. R. Rupley; and, further, that Supt.
Moses P^iedmau made wrongful use of the information he thus obtained from Govern
ment sources for the purpose of injuring Congressman ;\. R. Ru])ley.
SUMMARY.
It is herein shown by t,he testimony of t,he larnu^rs, gardeners, dairymen, carpen-
ters, mason, carriagemaker, shoemaker, tailor, tinner, blacksmith, painter, engineer,
seamstress, disciplinarian, assistant disciplinarian, former disciplinarian, principal
of t,he school, various teachers; by 14 boys and girls representing the st.udent body;
by the on ling matron, girls' field agent, certain clerks, former employees of said
srliool, mill (iIIkm's, llial Su])1. Moses Fri('(linan lias not tlie best inlercsl.s of the
i
CABLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1377
Government at heart or the welfare of the studenu body of said Carlisle Indian
School; tJiat he has been neglectful of his duties in properly supervising and looking
after the various industrial departments of said school; that he has neglected the best
interests of the student body in not having them taught agriculture, gardening, farm-
ing, dairying, poultry raising, horticulture, etc.; that he has been neglectful of hia
duty in not having boys properly selected and detailed to the various shops and in-
dustries, such as the tailor shop, paint shop, carpenter shop, blacksmith shop, car-
riagemaker shop, shoemaker shop, and tin shop, for a suflicient length of time to enable
themto learn the trades; that he took no personal interest in such matters, but allowed
these details to be made haphazard by the disciplinarian without any regard whatever
to the qualifications of the boys or their desire to learn certain trades, and permitted
them to be shifted from one shop to another and to the farms, kitchen, and on outing,
to the detriment of and against the best interests of the future welfare of these boys.
It is alsi) herein shown that the students did not have sufficient to eat; that there
was generally a lack of bread on the tables prior to my coming to Carlisle; that there
was an insuliicient number of knives, spoons, cups, and tableware, all of which was
caused by the neglect of Supt. Friedman.
It is also shown that the Government rations allowed could and should have been
properly supplemented by vegetables, which could and should have been raised at
the school and which would have provided educatitdi and eniploynunt for the pupils
as well; that there are no vegetablej, no milk, eggs, pork, or other articles of food
being served to supplement said ration; that butter is furnished only once a week;
an insufficient quantity of sirup twice a week and a little canned fruit occasionally;
that the pork raised at said school and the lard has been sold and the moneys placed
in class 4 fund and used for purposes other than for the tables of the pupils.
It is also shown that the mattresses on the majority of the beds in the dormitories
were unfit for use; hard, packed down, and matted from years of use and should
have been condemned and replaced by new mattresses; that but one towel a week
was furnished for each pupil for face and bath; that the general conditions in the
dormitories were not good.
It is shown that on my arrival the discipline of said school was very bad indeed;
that there was almost opeii rebellion among the student body against the superin-
tendent of said school, which had been brought about by lack of proper cooperation
with employees; lack of sympathy and unjust treatment of certain m.embers of the
student body; unjust treatment of certain employees; lack of individual interest in
the pupils or their welfare; lack of proper details to the various industries; lack of
proper night v.-atchmen; lack of any human side or fatherly interest in the welfare
of this stiidcut body.
It is further shown that football and athletics were allowed to predominate and
obtain first place at said school, and that the academic, educational, industrial,
agricultural training, etc., of the student body were in consequence allowed to suffer
and were made a secondary consideration.
It is shown by reference to Exhibit I that Supt. Friedman used and permitted
the athletic funds of said school to be improperly used.
It is shown that professionalism was employed in the athletics of said school and
the football players were brought back to said school and enrolled as members of
the student body for the express purpose of playing football and taking part in ath-
letics.
It is shown that the football players of said school received payments in cash or
indirectly in some other manner.
It is shown that Supt. Friedman had students of said school put in the county jail,
Cumberland County, Pa., some for trivial offenses, such as stealing pies, and treated
others unjustly in violation of the law, viz, tlu; case of Paul Jones and Ethel Williams.
It is shown that Supt. Moses Friedman permitted corporal punishment at said
school and encouraged same— as an example the whipping of Julia Hardin by Band-
master C. M. Stauffer and the whipping of four boys in the jail by Mr. Dickey,
acting disciplinarian.
It is shown by the testimony of former Printer E. K. ]\Iiller that liquor has been
served at the Carlisle Indian School in the home of Supt. Friedman and that beer
has been delivered on the grounds at the h(jmes of Coach Warner, Bandmaster
Stauffer, and Clerk Nori.
It is shown that favoritism was shown toward the football players and certain
employees, and that certain football players who were intoxicated and brought
liquor on the grounds were not disciplined, while others have been severely dis-
ciplined for trivial offenses — viz, the putting of the boys in the county jail for steal-
ing pies.
35601— FT 11—14 27
1378 CARLISLE INDLiN SCHOOL.
It is shown that the school records have been falsified, and that prior to the date
of the last investigation by Supervisor Charles F. Pierce, February 20, 1911, pupils
had been carried on said rolls for a period of upward of 22,000 days when they were
not in attendance, some of whom had been absent for periods as long as 5 years.
In this connection I desire to refer to testimony of the joint commission, pages 226
to 231, inclusive.
It is shown that former students and graduates of the Carlisle Indian School who
Bought employment within the arbitrarily fixed lines of the Carlisle Outing Sys-
tem were improperly treated by Supt. Friedman and made to lose their jobs. •
It is shown that Supt. Moses Friedman has lost the respect, confidence, and good
will of practically the entire student body, as well as of the majority of the employ-
ees of said ('arlisle Indian School, and that he is unsympathetic and overbearing
in his conduct toward the pupils and certain of the employees; that his manage-
ment of the school is inefficient in practically every department.
It is shown that the outing system has been exaggerated and abused; that pupils
have been forced on outings at a nominal wage against their best interests.
It is shown that there are a large number of pupils enrolled at said school when
they have public school facilities at home and who were attending public school
prior to coming to Carlisle, and it is my best judgment that these schools should
accommodate Indian pui^ils who have not the advantages of public schools at their
homes.
It is shown that the records have been falsified with relation to pupils who have
been sent home or expelled.
It is sho-ma that the morals of said school have been very bad and that a large
number of girl students were ruined, caused, generally, by the boys breaking into
the girls' dormitory building, because of lack of proper night watchmen and proper
policing of the grounds, through the neglect and lack of proper administration of
Supt. Moses Friedman.
It is shown that Supt. Moses Friedman has presented false accounts to the
Government in that he has charged and collected railway fares for certain trips
which are embraced in his Government vouchers, when he used mileage for the iden-
tical trips that was bought and paid for out of the athletic funds of the Carlisle
association.
In view of the foregoing I have the honor to recommend that Supt. Moses Fried-
man be dismissed permanently from the Government service.
CHIEF CLERK J. S. NORI.
\\Tiile making my investigation, I became suspicious that all was not just right with
Chief Clerk J. S. Nori. It had come to my knowledge that he had likely been living
beyond his salary, and rumors were afloat connecting him with certain women in the
town of Carlisle.
He is a competent chief clerk, writes a good hand, keeps a nice set of books, records,
etc. The Government accounts, on their face, appear to be all right, and I began
making such investigation and inquiry as would develop anything to show where he
might have procured moneys for which he rendered Government vouchers and
accounts.
I ascertained that Financial Clerk Will H. Miller had on a very large number of
occasions turned over moneys to Chief Clerk Nori for the purchase of railway tickets
for various pupils. These railway tickets might be to pay the transportation of pupils
either to their homes from Carlisle or from their homes to Carlisle, or both, and this
cash so turned over to Chief Clerk Nori by Financial Clerk Will H. Miller was in some
instances charged to and paid by the athletic association funds, and in other cases
these moneys were advanced from and charged to the individual account of the pupil
if he had funds to his credit. Thus checks would be drawn and signed by the pupil
and charged against his individual account, or a check would be drawm against the
athletic association funds, and in most every instance these checks were cashed and
the cash turned over to Chief Clerk Nori to purchase the railway transportation for
Buch pupil.
I was suspicious that there might be instances developed wherein the transporta-
tion of the pupil was charged against the Government and Government voucher and
account rendered covering such transportation, and that some of the moneys thus
turned over to Chief Clerk Nori might have thus been retained by him.
I found that to go into this matter thoroughly it would take a large amount of time
and checking, because it would necessitate going into each individual account and
picking out all the transportation charges, as also from the athletic association books,
and then ])icking out all the transportation vouchers from the superintendent's ac-
counts as rendered for the past several years, in order to make a proper checking.
i
CAHLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1379
I did not have the time to go into this mutter thoroughly myself, and therefore I
instructed the financial clerk, Will H. Miller, and Clerk Harvey K. Meyer, in both
of whom I have confidence, to take this matter up and check it thoroughly just aa
soon as they could find time, and advise me of their findings.
I am now in receipt of a letter, dated March 10, 1914, Carlisle, Pa., from Financial
Clerk Will H. Miller, in which he indicates that Chief Clerk Nori is loath to turn over
the Government vouchers to him and Mr. Meyer for the purpose of checking, but
that he did turn over some vouchers and that a check on the first one of them showed
that three items appearing on said voucher as being paid by Government check had
heretofore been paid by Mr. Miller, fiiumcial clerk, and the moneys charged either
against the individual Indian account of the pupil or against the athletic association
funds. This cash turned over by Financial Clerk Miller to Chief Clerk Nori he kept
an account of, but did not take Chief Clerk Nori's receipt for same.
I am well satisfied in my own mind that Financial Clerk Miller has been absolutely
honest in this matter, and that he has turned over these moneys to Chief Clerk Nori,
for which the chief clerk, in some instances, has rendered Government vouchers and
accounts and has retained the cash thus turned over for his own use and benefit. Of
course, this has to do with the accounts of Supt. Moses Friedman, and I am satisfied
that quite a large amount of money which has been turned over to Chief Clerk Nori
has not been accounted for, but that the Government has paid the identical transporta-
tion which has been paid to him and charged against the accounts of the individual
pupil, or paid by the moneys of the athletic association fund.
I, therefore, deem it wise to return at once to Carlisle and thoroughly check this class
of accounts and make supplemental report covering same.
I am satisfied this will further complicate the accounts of Supt. Friedman and that
he is likely to have cjuite a large amount to reimburse to the Government, and that this
will devefop that Chief Clerk Nori is likely to be dishonest and unfit to further remain
in the Government service. Mr. Nori is an Indian — from Lagun^,, N. Mex., Pueblo.
KECOMMENDATIONS.
That Moses Friedman, superintendent, be permanently dismissed from the Govern-
ment service, for the many reasons herein set forth.
That Claude M. Stauffer, musical director, be permanently dismissed from the
Government service.
That Glenn S. Warner, athletic coach, be dismissed, in the best interests of the school.
(He is not a Government employee . )
That the transfer of Miss Anna H. Ridenour, matron, be made, in the best interests
of the Carlisle Indian School and the Government service.
That Mr. John \\liitwell, principal, be retained in the best interests of said school.
That corporal punishment at said school be abolished, and that proper reprimands he
given to David H. Dickey, boys' field agent, for whipping boys, and to Wallace Denny,
assistant disciplinarian, for striking boy pupils with his fist.
That the salary of Will H. Miller, financial clerk, be increased from §1,000 to §1,440
per annum, and that he be retained. This is about the same salary that he has been
receiving with the extra compensation heretofore paid from the athletic fund.
That an order be issued whereby all boy pupils must wear their uniforms when they
visit the town of Carlisle, or any other city away from the Carlisle Indian School; this
to advertise that they are students of the school and prevent their obtaining liquor,
etc.
That special liquor officers be sent to Carlisle, under coyer, frequently, to secure
evidence against bootleggers and saloonkeepers who sell liquor to the Indian boy
pupils.
That proper night watchmen, white men, at least two good officers, be placed on the
rolls and properly police said school grounds.
That proper fire escapes be placed on the girls' dormitory building, leading from
the second story to the ground.
That students be not placed in the county jail, except under extenuating circum-
stances and for crimes wherein the Slate should step in and take charge.
That certain of the industrial teach<>rs be provided with quarters on the grounds
in which to live, as are provided for the other employees.
That the suits and clothing of the boys be properly looked after and mended,
cleaned and pressed, instead of being discarded and sold for rags, as heretofore.
That the old worn-out mattresses be rei)laced with new mattresses, and that the
pupils be furnished ^nth bath towels and a sufficient number of face towels; that the
bed linen be changed at least once a week, entirely, and changed oftener when found
necessary.
1380 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
That the salary of Robert B. George, tinsmith, Le increaped.
That the salary of Sadie A. Richey, assistant cook, be increased.
That the salary of Elizabeth Searight, assistant seamstress, be increased.
That the salary of Ramond Reneker, baker, be increased.
That G. B. Behney, former employee, be not reinstated.
That the surplus small clothing, unnecessary at this school, be shipped to some other
school.
That the bill of Detective George W. Shuler be not paid.
That the moneys derived from the athletic sports be handled by the superintendent
and properly accounted for.
Do not believe there is any justification for Supt. PMedman's charges against Roy L.
Mann, teacher.
While not proven, believe Supt. Friedman to be responsible for the false charges
published against Gen. R. H. Pratt in the Philadelphia Ledger.
That the Government ration at said school be increased because of lack of vegetables,
milk, butter, eggs, etc., and that the pupils be given enough to eat; that the dining-
room tables be supplied with a sufficient number of knives, spoons, cujjs, and dishes
for each individual pupil.
That the greater portion of the pork raised and fattened at said school be used on the
school tables, or in lieu thereof other articles to the value of the pork sold.
That the garden be increased from G to 80 acres.
That the dairy herd be increased to double its present size.
That the poultry be increased.
That horticulture be engaged in; the raising of small fruits and the setting out of
apple and other fruit trees.
That special attention be given to the qualifications and wishes of the boys to learn
the trades; that details be made for a sufficient length of time to enable the boys to
learn the various trades, and that individiial attention be given to the pupils.
That a sufficient number of boys be detailed to the various trades and industries,
and to the farms, garden, dairy, etc., to enable them to receive proper instructions and
perform the work in a satisfactory manner and learn the various trades and arts.
That first consideration be given to instruction in farming, gardening, dairying, etc.
The members of the Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs, who took the
testimony at the Carlisle Indian School, join with me in the recommendation of the
dismissal of Supt. Moses Friedman, Claude M. StauPier, musical director, and the
transfer of matron. Miss Anna H. Ridenour.
I have not consulted with the joint commission about the other recommendations,
but I feel quite sure that it is the judgment of said commission that Coach Glenn S.
Warner should not be retained at said school, and I believe they would cooperate and
join with me in these other recommendations as herein set forth, if they had knowledge
of same.
I have the honor to remain, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
E. B. LiNNEN, Inspector.
I also return herewith to the Conmiissioner of Indian Affairs certain papers and data
which he furnished me prior to my going to Carlisle, having a bearing on this investi-
gation. E. B. L.
Washincton, D. C, March 2S, 1914.
Hon. Cato Sells,
Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C.
Dear Sir: Under instructions dated March 12, 1914. from the honorable Secretary
of the Interior, I was directed to again return to Carlisle, Pa., and make a general
investigation of the accounts of the United States Indian School located there, and I
now have the honor to make supplemental report to my report addressed to the hon-
orable Secretary of the Interior dated February 24, 1914, as follows:
As stated in my original report I was suspicious that further accounts on file at the
said Indian school were false, and it was my opinion that Chief Clerk S. .1. Nori had
prepared for presentation to the Go\ernment false accounts <vud voucliers, and that
he had vouchered certain pupils :.t said Carlisle Indian School for railway tickets
which the Government had no right to ])ay and had retained the monej's deposited
by lliose certain pii])il.s for Iheir railway tickets.
This matter of moneys derived from iudi\'idual Indian or pupil's accounts involved
a search of between six and seven hundred iiulividual accounts and the checking of
all tr.iusportation vouchers to ascertain whether pupils had deposited moneys for
railway tickets which were afterwards vouchered to the Government.
I was assisted in such checking by the financial clerk. Will H. Miller, and by Clerk
Harvey K. Aleyer. After several days o( checking and discovering cpiite a number
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1381
of false accounts and vouchers, it became aj)]iareut that certain of the records of said
Carlisle Indian School were missing, some of which we remembered having seini on
prior occasions while engaged in this cliecking, and I became convinced that some
l^erson was engaged in destroying certain evidence with relation to these false accounts.
I did succeed, however, in securii g evidence sliowing duplications of payments on
16 vouchers involving 39 subvouchers whereiii payments had been made by the pupils
to Financial Clerk Will H. Miller, and such moneys turned o\ er by hin\ to Chief Clerk
S. J. Nori for the purchase of railwi.y tickets for various pupils wherein the Govern-
ment was not authorized to pay for sucli transportation.
Tlie.«e moneys were retained by Chief Clerk Nori and governmental vouchers pre-
pared and the transportation charged up to the Government in the accounts and
vouchers of Superintendent M. Friedman.
A list of the false vouchers and subvouchers which I prepared is embraced on four
typewritten pages which I inclose herewith and mark "Exhibit A," and invite
your attention to same. This list aggregates a total of $909.59.
I then put Chief Clerk S. J. Nori under oath and after a short time succeeded in
obtaining his full and complete confession regarding all of tliese transactions. The
substance of his two afTidavits which I attach together and mark as one exhibit, being
''Exhibit B," to wliich your attention is respectfully invited, is as follows:
Chief Clerk Nori states that he has been chief clerk and had charge of the books
and the preparation of the accounts and voucheis during all of Supt. M. Friedman's
administration at the Carlisle Indian School. He states that he has prepared, under
the direction of M. Friedman, superintendent, false vouchers and accounts for pre-
sentation to the Government, and that he commenced making said false vouchers
under instructions from Supt. Friedman soon after he assumed charge at said school.
During vacation periods, when certain pupils would return to their homes prior to
the expiration of their term at school, they would deposit moneys for the payrnent
of their railway tickets to and from their homes, the Government not being authorized
to pay such transportation and paying only their transportation when they first came
to said school for enrollment and paying their transportation home from said school
after their term had expired. These moneys were deposited by the various pupils
with Financial Clerk Will H. Miller, who turned over such moneys in cash to Chief
Clerk S. J. Nori, who was to purchase the railway transportation for such pupils. He
swears that in many instances he did not use such money so deposited by pupils
and turned over to him by Financial Clerk Will H. Miller, but retained same and
presented false vouchers to the Government for said railway transportation for these
various pupils, and that a large majority of all such moneys so received from Will
H. Miller, financial clerk, he turned over to Supt. M. Friedman, and at Supt. Fried-
man's request prepared these false subvouchers and vouchers, and included same in
the accounts of Supt. Moses Friedman, who swore to same.
Clerk Nori says that he believes he turned over between eight and nine hundred
dollars in cash to Supt. M. Friedman, which moneys he had received from Financial
Clerk Miller, same having been deposited with Financial Clerk Miller by various
pupils to pay their railway transportation. Clerk Nori states that he made these false
subvouchers, vouchers, and accounts with the knowledge of and at the request of
Supt. Moses Friedman, who subsequently swore to said accounts and presented
them to the Government for payment. He swears that he did this at the special
request of Supt. Friedman, who asked him to fix up these accounts in this manner
and thereafter, during my inA^estigation at said Carlisle Indian School, Supt. Friedman
asked him, Nori, to fix "up said "accounts, knowing that they had been wrongfully
prepared and presented for payment at his request.
Chief Clerk Nori swears that he told Supt. Friedman he didn't think they could be
fixed up now because they had been rendered, but Supt. Friedman told him to fix
them up anyhow, and toki him he was liable to be dismissed; and from the talk he had
with Supt. Friedman he had the understanding that Supt. Friedman meant for him
to destroy all evidence of receipts that were given to Financial Clerk Miller and
such other papers as would have any bearing on the matter; that he took it from the
talk he had with Supt. Friedman that he was to destroy all evidence in the nature of
receipts that would implicate either Supt. Friedman or himself; and that following
out that understanding with Suj)t. Friedman he look certain receipts and Government
papers from the official files of the financial clerk's office and destroyed the same;
that he searched these records on two various evenings after office hours, went through
the files and took therefrom all receipts and papers that had any ronn(>ction with
these false vouchers, and took them to his house on the campus at the Indian school
and burned said [)a])ers in his stove.
lie states that lu; took from the oflfice files some 15 or 20 receipts and Government
?apers and burne<l them in the stove at his house and that thereafter he told Supt.
'riedman that he had gotten away with the evidence and had destroyed it.
1382 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Chief Clerk Nori says he would not have taken and destroyed these Government
receipts and papers except at the suggestion, enconragement, and request of Supt. M.
Friedman.
Chief Clerk Nori also states that he prepared for presentation to the Government
false vouchers and accounts at the request of Supt. M. Friedman which were for his,
Friedman's, personal accounts and traveling expenses, knowing at the time that
Supt. Friedman was using mileage bought and paid for by the funds of the Athletic
Association of the Carlisle Indian School.
Chief Clerk Nori testifies that when Supt. Friedman and his wife made their west-
ern trip to California some two or three years ago that he prepared vouchers at the
request of Supt. Friedman to cover his personal expenses on said trip, which included
transportation purchased by the Carlisle Athletic Association funds. He also swears
that he prepared at the request of Supt. Friedman false vouchers and accounts
including railway transportation for certain students who never made the trips or
used the transportation.
He testifies that the amount of moneys which Siipt. Friedman would likely get
credit for from the Government by reason of having presented false vouchers in his
accounts for transportation of pupils which had never been purchased or used would
likely aggregate more than $500.
He also swears that certain vouchers show tickets for certain pupils to read to
places other than their homes, where tickets were not procured, which were vouchered
to the Government. He swears specifically that the items falsely vouchered as con-
tained on "Exhibit A" herewith were prepared by him under the direction of Supt.
M. Friedman. He testifies that 18 or 20 receipts which he destroyed contained
probably as many as 250 names of pupils whose railway tickets had been vouchered to
the Government, and these lists or receipts would aggregate from $150 to $350 each,
and that probably one-half of the names were the names of pupils who had deposited
money to pay for railway transportation whose transportation was vouchered and paid
for by the Government. He believes that transportation so vouchered, the names of
which were contained on these receipts which he destroyed would probably aggregate
$600 or $700; that some of the tickets would run from $30 to $50 each according to the
location of pupils in the West. He believes the total aggregate of moneys turned over
to him by Financial Clerk Miller and the moneys which were received by the superin-
tendent for rendering Government vouchers for tickets Avhich were never purchasled
would aggregate from $1,500 to $2,000. He states that the large majority of this money,
practically all, with the exception of about a hundred dollars which he believes his
wife, Mrs. Nori, once used on a western trip, and moneys for postage, car fare, and
incidental expenses which he personally spent, in all aggregating probably $200, and
the other moneys so received were turned over to Supt. M. Friedman.
Chief Clerk Nori also swears that about $200 turned over to him by the quarlermas-
ter, August Kensler, which were class-4 funds derived from the sale of rags, old iron,
bones, etc., was never entered on the books or accounts of Supt. Friedman, but siich
moneys were turned over to Supt. Friedman by him. He also swears that he knows
that Quartermaster August Kensler paid about $270 out of such class-4 funds for fur-
niture for Supt. Friedman's house, said funds never having been turned over to him
as chief clerk by Quartermaster Kensler and never having been accounted for to the
Government.
He also swears that certain curtains, rugs, furniture, electric fixtures of various kinds,
which were for Suj)t. Friedman's hou.se were vouchered lo the Government as being
purchased for guest rooms, etc., when they were for Supt. Friedman's personal use;
that these amounts would aggregate $200 or $."^00.
He further swears that during the time of Inspector McLaughlin's visit at Carlisle
School about three years ago that he had at that time between $500 and $C00 ca!?h on
hand which was in an envelope in the safe in his oflice, which moneys had been re-
ceived from Will H. Miller, financial clerk, to purchase tickets for various pupils and
a portion of such moneys from August Kensler, quartermaster, from the sale of Govern-
ment property such as rags, bones, old iron, copper, etc., which should have been
class-4 funds but were never so deposited or taken \ipon CoAernment accounts; and
that at the request of Supt. M. Friedman he made an itemized list of these monej's
showing from what source received and for what purpose and turned said moneys
over to Su])t. M. Friedman; that he did not take receijits frcm Supt. Friedman for the
moneys he turned over to him on this and other occasions. Supt. Friedman told him
he would hold this money until Inspector McLai'ghlin loft, and that he has never
Been any of it since aud he does not know wliat disposition he made of it. He states
that it Mas his custdm at the end of each month to turn over to Su])t. Friedman the
moneys he had received I'rom Financial Clerk Miller for tliejiurcluisc of railway tickets.
Chief Clerk Nori staff's that after destroying these Ciovernnient records at the request
of Su))t. M . Friedman he advised said Friedman of same and told Jiim he had destroyed
same.
i
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1383
When it became known to Supt. M. Friedman, or he suspected that Chief Clerk Nori
had confessed to me, and knowing well that it implicated himself, Supt. M. Friedman
had a warrant sworn out for the arrest of Chief Clerk Nori, charging him with embezzle-
ment of several hundred dollars and also with destroying Government records. Chief
Clerk Nori was arrested and taken before a justice of the peace in the borough of Car-
lisle and his bond fixed at $1,000, which was given, and he is now out on bail.
Supt. Friedman also had a search warrant gotten out for the searching of the premises
of Chief Clerk Nori for the Government papers and records which C'hief Clerk Nori had
burned u]) and had, as he states, informed Supt. Friedman that he had destroyed same.
The case is set for a hearing before Justice of the Peace Hughes, of Carlisle, at 10
o'clock a. m., March 26. It is my belief and best judgment that inasmuch as these are
Gov'Tiiment accounts and Government records which were destroyed that the local
and State courts of Pennsylvania have no jurisdiction. It is also my belief that Supt.
M. Friedman was wholly unwarranted in swearing out a warrant for the arrest of Chief
Clerk Nori for embezzlement and having a search warrant issued to search his house for
missing records, the matter being one entirely for the Government to act in.
It would thus appear that Supt. M. Friedman is trying to becloud the issue; trying
to take the jurisdiction out of the hands of the honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs
and the Department of Justice, and trying to prejudice the ])ublic against Chief Clerk
Nori and to discredit him in every way, 1)eing fearful that Chief Clerk Nori, who has
confessed, will act as a witness against him if this matter ever conies to an issue.
Quartermaster Kensler made aflidavit before me under oath, in which he states in
substance that during the years 1908, 1909, and 1910 that he knows that there were
certain moneys which were derived from the sale of rags, bones, iron, etc., which he
turned over to Chief Clerk Nori that were never taken up in the accounts. He also
swears that out of this class of moneys, which was properly class 4 moneys and which
was not accounted for by Supt. Friedman, that he paid the sum of $271 out of such
funds in cash for certain furniture for Supt. Friedman's house. He swears that the
moneys derived from such Government sales, which were class 4 moneys, which were
not taken up on the books and accounts of Supt. Friedman would aggregate between
$400 and $500.
Quartermaster Kensler also testifies that other class 4 moneys which should have
been received and accounted for from the sale of cement sacks, etc., were not taken
up, but that the money from such sales was used to purchase articles for use in the
carpenter shop, and that this would amount to between $50 and $60; that this trans-
action was had with Bixler & Sons, hardware dealers of Carlisle, Pa.
This affidavit of Quartermaster Kensler I inclose herewith and mark "Exhibit C,"
and invite your attention to same.
In my search of the receipts of the Carlisle Athletic Association, I found further
mileage and railway transportation which had been purchased for M. Friedman,
superintendent, not mentioned in my former report, as follows:
Mileage and transportation purchased of the Cumberland Valky Railroad Co. for Supt,
M. Friedman, and paid for froin the funds of the Carlisle Athletic Association.
Dec. 20, 1908, 1 1,000-mileage book, No. 771439 $20.00
Oct. 5, 1909, 1 1,000-mileage book. No. 18789 20. 00
Dec. 5, 1909, 1 1,000-mileage book, No. 104637 20.00
Oct. 19, 1909, 1 1,000-mileage book, No. 104180 20. 00
Oct. 19, 1909, 2 tickets, Carlisle, Pa., to New Paltz 14. 02
Feb. 18, 1910, 2 1,000-mileage books. No. 125133-125134 40. 00
Mar. 3, 1910, 1 1,000-mileage book 20. 00
July 17, 1910, 1 1,000-mileage book. No. 309099 20. 00
July 19, 1910, 1 1,000-mileage book, No. 309625 (paid by athletic association
check No. 2092) 20. 00
Sept. 24, 1910, 1 1.000-miIeage book. No. 298486 20. 00
Sept. 24, 1910, 1 ticket, Carlisle, Pa., to Louisville, Ky. (paid by athletic
association check No. 2154) 16. 68
Oct. 14, 1910, 1 1,000-mileage book. No. 458130 (paid by check, athletic
association. No. 2221) 20. 00
Oct. 17, 1910, 2 1 ,000-mileage books, No. 458143-458144 40. 00
Oct. 17, 1910, 2 tickets, Carlisle, Pa., to New Paltz, N. Y. (paid by check,
Athletic Association, No. 2221) 14. 02
Nov. 5, 1910, 1 1,000-mileage book, No. 458414 (paid by athletic association
check No. 2260) 20. 00
Jan. 16, 1911, 1 1,000-mileage book (paid by athletic association check No.
2351) 20.00
Feb. 11, 1911, 1 1,000-mileage book. No. 572318 20. 00
Oct. 3, 1912, 2 tickets, round trip, Carlisle, Pa., to Columbus, Ohio 43. 12
1384 ' CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
The accounts of the Carlisle Athletic Association also show that the sum of $56.86
was turned over by Financial Clerk Will H. Miller to Chief Clerk S. J. Nori by Athletic
Association check No. 2412, to pay for two railroad tickets for Supt. Friedman and
wife, from Carlisle, Pa., to Lawrence, Kans. ; at the same time the Government voucher
No. 179, of the third quarter, 1911, shows that Supt. Friedman charged this transporta-
tion for himself, viz, the sum of $28.43 to the Government, and collected payment for
same, when this amount was paid to him by the Carlisle Athletic Association funds.
The railroad transportation above noted aggregates a sum total of $407.84, which,
together with mileage purchased for Supt. M. Friedman from athletic association
funds, is embriced in my original report, aggregating a sum of $580, is $987.84 all
told, transportation which was bought for Supt. M. Friedman from Carlisle Athletic
Association funds, expenses for some of which traveling he vouchered to the Govern-
ment.
I inclose also Cumberland Valley Railroad bills for transportation furnished Gus
Welsh, Sam Bird, James Thorpe, Peter Jordan, and Joel Wheelock, football players,
aggregating a sum total of .?270.94.
These additional bills of the Cumberland Valley Railroad Co. for transportation
are attached together and marked as one exhibit, being Exhibit "D."
Inasmuch as the majority of these mileage books delivered to Supt. Friedman are
numbered I am well satisfied that if I were again to check with the auditor's office of
the Cumberland Valley and Pennsylvania Pv,ailroads, I could show that some of this
mileage was used by Supt. Friedman for further trips and transportation which he has
vouchered the Government.
^\^lile making a further investigation of the bills rendered to the Carlisle Athletic
Association, I discovered the following additional expenditures for Supt. M. Friedman:
July 13, 1910, The Outlook for Mr. Friedman $3. 00
July 13, 1910, The Sentinel for Mr. Friedman 6. 25
Paid by athletic association checks No. 2071-2072.
Mr. Friedman's expenses to Washington, May 16-17, paid by athletic associa-
tion check No. 3377 22. 00
Annual dues for M. Friedman to American Association for the Advancement
of Science, paid by athletic association check No. 3599 3. 00
Expenses of M. Friedman to Washington, Mar. 4 and 5, 1913, jsaid by athletic
association check No. 3279 26. 00
Nevv^ York Times for M. Friedman, paid by athletic association check No. 3249. 8. 50
December, 1912, expenses of M. Friedman to Phila,delphia, for Pullman,
meals, theater tickets, etc., paid by athletic association check No. 3172 22. 00
Volume of "WTio's Who in America," A. N. Marquis & Co., Chicago, 111., for
M. Friedman, paid by athletic association check No. 3024 4. 75
Dues of M. Friedman to the National Society of Industrial Education, paid by
athletic association check No. 2849 '. 2. 00
Nov. 21, 1911, expenses, M. Friedman to Harvard game at Boston 48. 00
Expenses, M. Friedman, football season, 1910, paid by athletic association
check No. 2314 211. 00
Feb. 5, 1912, New York Times for M. Friedman, paid by athletic association
check No. 2857 8. 50
Expenses to Columbus, Ohio, Society of American Indians, M. Friedman (por-
tion of this expense is Hotel Raleigh bill, Washington, D. C), paid by
athletic association check No. 3138 75. 65
Nov. 3, 1911, M. Friedman, Bellevue-Stratford Hotel, Philadelphia, paid by
athletic association check No. 2747 55. 00
Nov. 15, 1912, M. Friedman, Bellevue-Stratford Hotel, Philadelphia, paid by
athletic association check No. 3139 69. 20
Expense to Philadelphia, M. Friedman, July 17-18 17. 00
Expense to Philadelphia, M. Friedman, July 9; to Washington July 12 and 13. 22. 00
Nov. 30 and Dec. 1, expense to Philadelphia 24. 00
Jan. 26, 27, and 28, expense M. Friedman to Washington 27. 00
Jan. 3, 1910, M. Friedman, Piper's Book Store, Carlisle, daily and Sunday
papers 4. 75
Apr. 27, 1912, M. Friedman, expense to Washington, paid by athletic association
check No. 2929 58. 60
Dec. 16, 1911, M. Friedman, expense to Washington, paid by athletic associ-
ation check No. 2848 '^. 42. 20
These additional expense accounts I attach together and mark as one exliibit, being
exhibit "E."
CARLISLE INDL^N SCHOOL. 1385
I also inclose two receipts showing the character of some of the papers which Chief
Clerk Nori destroyed. These I attach together and mark as one exhibit, being ex-
hibit "F."
It appears that Supt. M. Friedman and ^lusical Director Claude M. Stauffer have
been busy trying to have employees and pupils on the grounds sign papers which they
have prepared in their behalf. It also appears that they procured a notary public in
Carlisle, Pa., who by his persistent efforts to procure signers to his petitions in favor
of Supt. Friedman and Claude M. Stauffer made himself quite obnoxious to a majority
of the employees and some of the students, who threatened to throw him off the grounds
if he persisted in his actions.
Miss Anna M. Ridnour, the girls' matron, took Julia Hardin out of line one evening
when she should have gone to the study room and brought her to her room in the girls'
building. This is the same young lady who was cruelly whipped by Claude M. Stauf-
fer and who has heretofore testified before the joint congressional committee and
myself. In the matron's, Miss Ridnour's, room that evening was this notary public
and Claude M. Stauffer, and also a stenographer, Miss Herman. Miss Julia says that
when she went into Miss Ridnour's room she was directed to sign a paper which had
all been written out; that Miss Ridnour directed her to do so; that she did not read
it; that it was not read to her; and she did not know the contents of said paper.
Subsequently on two occasions Miss Ridenom', the matron, again brought Julia
Hardin to her room and tried to have her sign an additional statement in favor of
Claude M. Stauffer, bandmaster, who had whipped her, which statement Miss Julia
Hardin states as prepared for her signature was untrue. They cautioned her to say
nothing about the matter. She refused to sign any additional papers and does not
know the contents of the first paper which she signed. They told her they had de-
stroyed the paper which she oriHnally signed and wanted her to sign this additional
paper which they had prepared, the contents of which she said was untrue, as it
contained many statements which were false.
She stated that Miss Ridenour told her that I, the inspector, had told her (Miss
Ridenour) everything that she (Jxilia Hardin) had testified to before the joint congres-
sional committee and myself and told here that the statement she made before said
committee and myself under oath was false, and they used this and other means
to induce her to sign a statement the contents of which was untrue and known by
them to be untrue, as same contained statements, she says, even to the effect that
Mr. Whit well, the principal, had kicked her.
She states that since she refused to comply with the request of the matron, Miss
Ridenour, that she has been treated unjustly and cruelly by her and has been degraded ;
has had her conduct card returned as being poor, and in other ways she has shown
her displeasure toward this pupil.
Julia Hardin states that she was not sworn to by the notary public or any other per-
son when she signed the original paper at the request of the matron. Miss Ridenour,
which Ihey told her they had destroyed.
I took the affidavit of Miss Julia Hardin covering this matter which I inclose here-
with for your information and mark "Exhibit G," and invite your attention to same.
From the foregoing it appears that the matron, Miss Ridenour, has been unduly
active in attempting to coerce Miss Julia Hardin into signing papers in the interest of
Bandmaster Stauffer, who whipped her, knowing well when she was doing so that
Julia Hardin had testified before the joint congressional committee and myself, and
I can not refrain from saying that such conduct on her part is reprehensible arid that
she should be properly censmed for same. I further desire to emphasize the fact
that the sooner that this matron. Miss Ridenour, is transferred from Carlisle the better
it Avill be for said school.-
The principal, John Whitwell, filed with me a letter dated Carlisle, Pa., March 18,
1914, with relation to the procuring of the signing of Julia Hardin by the matron,
Miss Ridenour, and the action of Clarence Liggett, the notary public, in trying to
secure signers at the Carlisle Indian School. This letter I mark "Exhibit II."
Cus Welsh, one of the football boys, made affidavit before me with relation to the
letter signed by James Thorpe, former Carlisle student, with relation to his being a
professional athlete, which letter he states was prepared by Coach G. S. W'arjier and
Supt. M. Friedman. This aftidavit I mark "Exhibit I."
Miss Herman, stenographer, also made affidavit with relation to Clerk Nori, which
affidavit I inclose and mark "Exhibit J."
I inclose 29 slips showing payments of various pupils as turned over by Financial
Clerk ^^'ill H. Miller to Chief Clerk S. J. Nori, which were vouched to and ])aid by
the Government after these moneys had been paid by the pupils for their transporta-
tion and turned over to said Nori. These 29 slips I attach together and mark as
"Exhibit K."
1386 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
I also inclose letter from the Pennsylvania Railroad Co., dated Philadelphia, Feb-
ruary 24, 1914, addressed to Mr. M. Friedman, signed by H. P. Conner, assistant treas-
urer, which has attached thereto individual Indian money check No. 20950, dated
July 16, 1913, drawn in favor of the Pennsylvania Railroad Co. in the sum of $8.68,
signed by James Bearchild. The letter attached to this check explains itself. The
money had once been paid to the Pennsylvania Railroad Co. for this ticket, and they
would not indorse the check for second payment and return same to M. Friedman.
As stated by Chief Clerk Nori in his affidavit before me, if this check had been
indorsed by the Pennsylvania Railroad Co. and returned to Supt. Friedman he prob-
ably would have retained such moneys for his own personal use and benefit. This
letter with check attached I mark as one exhibit, being "Exhibit L."
I checked from the cash book at said Indian school the amount of moneys which
have been paid to outsiders for employment as carpenters, painters, steam fitters,
and laborers from January 1, 1913, to January 31, 1914, a period of 13 months, and find
that the sum of $6,539 was paid for such outside help, when this work should very prop-
erly have been performed by the pupils at said school and they to have received
the benefit of the instruction and trades. Instead of so doing, these young men who
should have been learning these trades and had the benefit of this work were working
on farms in the vicinity of Carlisle at a nominal wage, while over $6,500 of the Gov-
ernment's funds was paid out for such work. This statement of such payments, ag-
gregating $6,539, I inclose, and mark "Exhibit M."
By letter dated Carlisle, Pa., March 21, 1914, 55 of the boys of the Carlisle Athletic
Association addressed a letter to Hon. Cato Sells, Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
protesting against the further employment of Athletic Director Glen S. Warner, for
the reasons —
1. That he possesses a weak moral character.
2. That he continually uses profane and abusive language in the presence of the
boys.
3. That the way in which he performs his duties, the small amount of instruction
that he gives the boys, is not in proportion to the large salary that he is paid.
4. That the attitude he has shown toward the school, the influence and method that
he has employed for the purpose of Mr. Friedman's retention as head of this institution,
is injurious to the school and detrimental to good discipline among the student body.
5. That he has proven himself selfish, abolishing branches of athletics that he was
not capable of coaching, such as baseball and basket ball.
6. That he in one instance used the football team for the purpose of gambling, bet-
ting heavily in the Dartmouth-Carlisle game, giving the boys a small per cent of
the money which he had won.
7. That he is at the head of the athletic association in which the boys are suppospd
to have a voice, but through his influence and suppression they have been deprived
of that privilege.
8. That he, as president of the association, has failed to perform his duty, as he
allowed the officers of the same organization to use the association's money for their
own enjoyment and for the entertainment of their friends.
9. Thait as a result of the foregoing statements we hold him to be dishonest and we
can not respect him, holding him to be an incompetent leader.
This petition is signed by the leading football and athletic boys at said Carlisle
Indian School, 55 in number.
In view of the foregoing, I again respectfully submit that Coach G. S. Warner is not
a proper person to continue in the employment of said school as coach. Tliis letter I
inclose herewith and mark "Exhibit N."
The foregoing additional evidence proves conclusively that further false accounts
have been submitted by Supt. M.Friedman, and the sworn testimony of Cliief Clerk
Nori is that he prepared said false vouchers and accounts under the direction of Supt.
M. Friedman and that he also took from the files of said office official papers and
burned them, also at the request of Supt. Friedman. The accounts of which I have
absolute proof as contained in Exliibit "A" amount to $909.59, for wliich false vouch-
ers have been rendered. Chief Clerk Nori testifies that he had prepared vouchers
and false accounts wliich would aggregate from $1,500 to $2,000 uiider the instructions
of the superintenden.t.
In relation to Cluef Clerk Nori I have to say I am advised that he has been at the
Carlisle Indiaii School since he lias been a little boy 6 years of age; that he received
his education and (raining at said institution. He is a full-blood Indian, belonging to
the Laguna, New Mexico ])uebl(). lie, like most other Indians, has followed blindly
llie instructions of his sii])eriutendent and did largely as he was directed to do.
Wliile he is by no means blameless and is implicated in making these false accounts
and vouchers and has admitted using some of such moneys for himself and his wife,
CARLISLE IXDL\.N SCHOOL. 1387
he swears positively that the major portion of said moneys was turned over by him to
Supt. M. Friedman and that the Government papers he destroyed was at the request
or suggestion of Mr. Friedman.
Supt. Friedman now attempts to make liim the "goat" by having him arrested for
embezzlement and by having his premises searched under a search warrant, when as a
matter of fact Supt. M. Friedman has no evidence other than his own guilty conscience
with relation to these false accounts and vouchers wliich have been prepared by
Cliief Clerk Nori under liis direction. The search warrant was also a blind, as I believe,
to throw dust in the eyes of the community, because Cliief Clerk Nori states positively
under oath that he had informed Supt. Friedman that he had destroyed these Gov-
ernment papers as he had requested.
It therefore follows that Chief Clerk S. J. Nori should be suspended at once and
undoubtedly dismissed from the Government ser\ace, and I have the honor to rec-
ommend that indictments be secured against the guilty parties as here noted, if the
facts herein presented will warrant, as I believe to be justifiable.
I inclose also triplicate copies of false vouchers filed by Supt. M. Friedman as
follows:
Voucher No. 2, fourth quarter, 1908.
Voucher No. 2, second quarter, 1909.
Voucher No. 2, third quarter, 1909.
Voucher No. 2, fourth quarter, 1909.
Voucher No. 2, first quarter, 1910.
Voucher No. 2, second quarter, 1910.
Voucher No. 2, third quarter, 1910.
Voucher No. 2, fourth quarter, 1910.
Voucher No. 2, first quarter, 1911.
Voucher No. 2, second quarter, 1911.
Voucher No. 179, third quarter, 1911.
Voucher No. 2, fourth quarter, 1911.
Voucher No. 2, second quarter, 1912.
Voucher No. 2, third quarter, 1912.
Voucher No. 2, third quarter, 1913.
Voucher No. 12, third cjuarter, 1913.
Voucher No. 2, fourth quarter, 1913.
These 17 vouchers I tie together and mark as one exhibit, being Exhibit 0.
I have the honor to remain.
Very respectfully, your obedient servant,
E. B. LiNNEN,
Chief Inspector Indian Service.
ATHLETIC FUNDS.
The rules and regulations of the Indian Office, approved by the Secretary of the
Interior, which have the force and effect in law, specifically provide that the athletic
funds be taken up in Class IV funds by the superintendent and special disbiu'ang
agent at each ludian school, and on each Indian reservation.
Under heading of Class IV funds, paragraph 289, in parentheses (g) appears the
following:
"(gr) School entertainments, band concerts, athletic contests, sales of curios or
fancy articles manufactured by pupils, subscriptions to school joiu-nals or adver-
tising therefrom, job printing, or any other like enterprise."
"No. 290. These funds should be taken tip in the accounts as miscellaneous receipts,
Class IV, agency; or miscellaneous receipts. Class IV, school, as appropriate. They
may be held by disbursing officers for expendittire as provided in the succeeding
section, and not to be covered into the Treasury except on a change of disbursing
officers, or the filing of a new bond, when they must be deposited to the credit of
the United States."
The last order pertaining to these miscellaneous receipts, Class IV, covering spe-
cificallv monevs derived from athletic contests, is amendment No. 30 to the regula-
tions, dated Washington, May 16, 1910, approved by the Hon. Secretary of the Inte-
rior, Jtine 14, 1910, and has been on file in the superintendent's office, Carlisle, Pa.,
at all times since said date.
Section 242 of the Regulations of the Indian Office provides that "Public funds of
all classes, no matter from what source received, must be immediately taken up in,
the agent's accounts. No expenditures whatsoever shall be made therefrom except
by the authority of the department."
Section 250 and Revised Statutes, section 258, provides that, "If an agent deposits
any public money in any place not designated for the purpose by the Secretary of th©
1388 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
Treasury, or unlawfully converts loans, transfers, or applies public money, he will
be deemed guilty of embezzlement and shall be punished by imprisonment at hard
labor for not less than 1 or more than 10 years," etc.
Amendment No. 30 to the regulati.ons, dated May 16, 1910, approved by the hon-
orable Secretary of the Interior, provides among other things that "Funds coming
into the hands of disbursing officers from miscellaneous sources are divided into the
following classes and must all be taken up and accounted for in compliance with the
act of July 1, 1898 (30 Stat. L., 595), which provides that hereafter Indian agents
shall account for all funds coming into their hands as custodians from any source
whatever, and be responsible therefor under their official bonds.
Amendment No. 28 to accounts, dated March 23, 1909, provides: "Each Indian
agent shall keep a book of itemized expenditures of every kind, with a record of all
contracts, together with the receipts of moneys from all sources, and the books thus
kept shall always be open to inspection, and the said books shall remain in the office,
* * * not to be removed from said reservation by said agent, but be safely kept
and handed over to his successor * * *. Should any agent knowingly make a
false entry in said books, or shall knowingly fail to keep a perfect entry in said books,
as herein described, he shall be deemed guilty of misdemeanor, and for conviction
by United States courts having jurisdiction of such offense, shall be fined," etc.
United States Statutes at Large, volume 36, part 1, page 1335, provides that falsifi-
cation of accounts and making false reports by any officer, clerk, agent, or other
person of any Government account, is guilty of felony, punishable by 10 years at
hard labor. This is chapter 270, relating to Government employees. This act was
approved March 4, 1911.
February 9, 1914.
Hon. Cato Sells,
Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D .C.
Mr. Commissioner: Some time ago, at the reqxiest of this commission, Inspector
E. B. Linnen went to Carlisle, Pa., to investigate conditions prevailing in the Carlisle
Indian School. A number of complaints had been filed against the management
and conduct of the institution. On Friday last this commission \dsited Carlisle,
made an inspection, and took testimony of a large mimber of witnesses, including
several students and employees of the institution and citizens of the town of Carlisle.
We regret to say that the affairs of this institution are in many respects unsatisfactory,
and call your attention to same in detail, as follows:
1. The relationship between Supt. Friedman and the pupils generally appears to
be strained and unfriendly. The same is true as to the feeling between the super-
intendent and the majority of the employees.
The testimony is conflicting as to the causes of this. Much of the evidence tends
to show that the superintendent is unsympathetic and overbearing in his conduct
toward the pupils. There is also testimony indicating that this attitude on the part
of the pupils is encouraged by some of the employees. On some occasions large
numbers of pupils have publicly hooted and jeered at the superintendent, calling
him "Mose" and "Old Jew," and using other expressions of contempt. The super-
intendent seems to have lost the rosi^ect of the student body, and is unable to exer-
cise a wholesome influence over them.
2. The general condition in the Carlisle institute as to discipline is unsatisfactory;
there are now many cases of drinking among the pupils and occasional instances of
intoxication which are very demoralizing in their influence. There 9.re a large num-
ber of saloons in the town of Carlisle. Some of the pupils in the school have so little
Indian blood that it is difficult to distinguish them from wliite persons, and it is
claimed tliat these pupils are able to buy whisky and furnish it to the other pupils
who are disposed to drink. The evidence discloses that many of the pupils who
drink to excess have acquired the habit before entering the school. There is little
effort to police the grounds. Many of the pupils secretly and in A-iolation of the
regulations go to town at night in citizens' clothing. Sometimes pujnls appear in
an intoxicated condition on the sclif)ol premises. It would seem imperative that
safeguards be taken to prevent the admission to the school of pupils wlio are in the
habit of drinking. In tliis connection it is proper to state, however, that there has
always been more or less drinking among the pupils. It appears to be more common
now than henitofore.
3. Then; are many instances of flagrant immoral conduct among the pupils at Car-
lisle. Male and female ])upils meet clandestinely, sometimes in the girls' quarters.
A large number of female juipils have been expelled on this account. In some
instances where expulsions wer(> in fact made for this reason tlie records of the school
appear to indicate that tlu> j)U])il failed to return or was discharged for other reasons.
Trus is one of the perplexing and important problems connected with the discipline
CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL. 1389
in the school. The siiperintendpnt thinks there are not more cases of this character
than occur in any coeducational institution. The commissi<m, however, regard this
as erroneous.
4. Especial attention is called to the case of Ethel Williams and Paul Jones, who
were arrested on a warrant procured by the disciplinarian of the Carlisle School,
Mr. McKean, on a charge of fornication. These two pupils were placed in the county
jail. They entered pleas of guilty and were sentenced to confinement for a period
of 60 days. The laws of the State of Pennsyh^ania do not autliorize impristmment
for this offense. The whole proceeding appears to have been irregular and indeed
in violation of law. Paul Jones was confined for 70 days, and some information has
reached the commission that during the entire time he Avas not provided with a change
of clothing. Immediately upon the expiration of the jail sentence both pupils v/ere
sent away from the school.
5. Another instance which we regard as worthy of mention is the case of a pupil
who was an-ested on an affidavit sworn out by Principal Teacher AMiitwal and confined
in the jail, we believe, for a period of 30 days for "stealing" pies. The arrest in both
of these cases were ordered by Supt. Friedman.
G. Especial attention is also called to the case of Julia Ilardin, a pupil about 18 years
old, who has an excellent record. She had agreed to go on an outing into the countrj^
and when the matron instructed her to go she declined to do so on the ground that she
was not provided with a trunk. Some delay was had, and the matron again in-
structed her to prepare to go on the outing. The young lady declined, and the matron
attempted to coerce her. Bandmaster Stauffer, who is not directly connected with
the discipline in the school, informed Supt. Friedman that he thought the girl ought
to be "spanked," and the superintendent acquiesced in the suggestion, although he
stated he was opposed to corporal punishment in any case. Mr. Stauffer, in company
with the matron and one other employee, took Miss Hardin in a room, closed the blinds,
and urged her to go on the outing. She refused, and Mr. Stauffer slapjjed her. Ac-
cording to his statement, she dropped down on her knees, he spanked her, pushed her
over on the floor, and whipped her with a stick. According to his statement, he
struck her 10 or 12 times. According to her statement, he threw her on the floor a
number of times, struck her in the face with the stick, beating her very severely, and
striking her 40 or 50 times. Principal Teacher Whitwal was sent for and had little
trouble in persuading her to yield. She was confined in the lockup.
AVhile Miss Hardin was not without fault, we think that Mr. Staulfer's conduct must
be severely condemned. It is in evidence that the girl offered no physical resistance,
but was merely stubborn, and did not desire to go on the outing. When she went
into the country, information preceded her which caused her employer to inform her
that she would be given no privileges and was under suspicion. It apj^ears, however,
that she succeeded in endearing herself to the family.
7. The management of the school is inefficient. This appears to be true as to every
department. The superintendent regards vocational training as one of the strong
features of the work. It is totally unsatisfactory to us. Harness making, instruction
in telegraphy and in agriculture have been discontinued, save with the school farms,
which are presumed to be run as a demonstration farm. As to demonstrations on the
farm, the farmers in charge of the same testified that it is wholly inefficient and that
the pupils are detailed to perform this work as a kind of penalty for some misconduct.
There is absolutely no effort to stimulate a love of agriculture among the pupils.
When one becomes proficient in any of the trades, he is frequently detailed to other
work, and thus loses all interest. This is true as to the carpenter's shop, the tinner's
shop, the paint shop, the show shop, and the bakery. The instructors in charge of
these various departments say they have frequently complained to the disciplinarian
and to the superintendent that the pupils detailed to this work should be permitted
to complete their training, but in spite of their complaints the management of the
school persists in a policy which makes it impossible for many of the pupils to suc-
cessfully learn a trade.
The value of the system of outing has been exaggerated. While in many instances
it has no doubt proven beneficial, we do not think that pupils who are interested in
trades should be detailed to farm work or sent upon outing where no opportunity is
afforded them to continue the study of their trade.
The school garden is inadequate. No reason appears why ample supplies of garden
products should not be produced for the use of the school. The gardener takes this
view of the matter, and it appears that the supply of last year was inadequate. As an
illustration of the ab'surd policy prevailing as to the farm, it appears that the soil is
depleted and becoming less productive. These farms, as now operated, have prac-
tically no demonstration value to the school.
1390 CARLISLE INDIAN SCHOOL.
8. It is the opinion of some who have given study to the subject, including Dr. E. A.
Knobel, president of Dickinson College, that class instruction in the school does not
approximate a high standing.
9. The commission, with the very able assistance of Inspector E. B. Linne, in-
vestigated and checked the athletic account. This is controlled by the executive
committee of the athletic association, which is a corporation. The executive com-
mittee appears to be the superintendent of the school, the athletic director, Mr. Warner,
and the treasurer of the athletic association, Mr. William Miller. The accounts appear
to be very accurately kept, but the disbursement and expenditures are open to very
grave criticism.
10. It appears that the superintendent has falsified his accounts in this: While
actually traveling to and from the city of Washington on mileage books purchased
from the athletic fund and furnished him free of cost, he has, for the same trips, charged
his transportation expenses to the Government in his accounts as superintendent and
disbursing agent. This appears from the records of the treasurer of the athletic associa-
tion and the records in the office of the auditor for the Cumberland Valley Railroad Co.
and the Pennsylvania Railroad.
11. The matron. Miss Ridenour, in charge of the large girl pupils, is earnest in her
work, and appears to be prompted by good motives. She, however, inspired the beat-
ing of Miss Hardin by Bandmaster Stauffer, and was present assisting in the same.
She is harsh and unkindly in her demeanor toward the pupils, and as a result of this
the relationship between the pupils and the said matron is strained and unfriendly
to such an extent that it is doubtful whether her continuance in the service there will
be for the good of the institution.
Upon a consideration of the whole case, the Joint commission recommends that Supt.
Friedman and Bandmaster Stauffer be suspended and tried. We further recommend
due consideration be given to the advisability of reprimanding Miss Ridenour and
transferring her. These recommendations are concurred in by all members of the
commission who were present.
Very truly,
Joe T. Robinson,
Chairman.
X
OSA^GE RESERVATION"
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
JOINT COMMISSION OF THE
CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES
SIXTY-THIRD CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
TO
INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS
MARCH 9, "J 914
PART 12
Printed for the use of the Joint Commission
WASHINGTON
GOVERNMENT PRINT] NH OFFICE
1914
JOINT COMMISSION TO INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS.
Congress of the United States.
Sbnatobs : . Rbpebsbntatives :
JOE T. ROBINSON, Arkansas, Chairman. JOHN H. STEPHENS, Texas.
HARRY LANE, Oregon. CHARLES D. CARTER, Oklahoma.
CHARLES B. TOWNSEND, Michigan. CHARLES H, BURKE, South Dakota.
R. B. KeatinGj Arkansas, Secretary.
Ross Williams, Arkansas, Clerk.
n
OSAGE RESEEVATION.
MONDAY, MARCH 9. 1914.
Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs,
W ashing ton^ D. C.
The joint commission met in the committee room of the Senate
Committee on Indian Affairs at 2 o'clock p. m.
Present: Senators Robinson (chairman), Lane, and Townsend and
Representative Stephens.
TESTIMONY OF MR. JAMES ALBERT CARROLL. SUPERINTENDENT
OF THE OSAGE INDIAN RESERVATION, OKLA.
(The witness was dul}'^ sworn by the chairman.)
The Chairman. You are the superintendent of the Osage (Okla.)
Agency, I believe, Mr. Carroll?
Mr, Carroll. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How long have you served in that capacity?
Mr. Carroll. Since the 18th of July, 1912.
The Chairman. How long have you been in the Indian Service,
aUtold?
Mr. Carroll. Secretary Hoke Smith appointed me in 1895 — De-
cember.
The Chairman. What other positions did you hold before you be-
came superintendent of the Osage Agency?
Mr. Carroll. I was appointed to a clerkship by Secretary Smith,
in charge of the Indian warehouse at Valentine, Nebr. That was
my original appointment. That was a station where we received all
the supplies consigned to the Rosebud Agency, S. Dak. I received
those supplies and shipped them out to the agency by wagon.
After nearly two years in charge of that warehouse I was sent
to the Pottawatomie Agency, in Kansas, where I served about a
year.
The Chairman. As superintendent?
Mr. Carroll. As clerk — chief clerk. Thence to the Ponca Agency,
Okla., in the same capacity — clerk — where I served about six months.
Thence to the Kiowa Agency. Okla., in the same capacity, where I
served about two years and a half. Then I was appointed, or pro-
moted I should say, to the position of superintendent of the Mes-
calero Agency, N. Mex., where I remained 11 years. I went from
the Mescalero to my present position as superintendent of the Osage.
The Chairman. Do you know the total number of Indians under
your jurisdiction as superintendent of the Osage Agency?
Mr. Carroll. I do not, Senator.
1391
1392 OSAGE KESERVATION.
The Chairman. Do you know about how many?
Mr. Carroll. The total number allotted — what we called the ap-
proved roll — contains the names of 2,230. Of course, a good many
of those are dead, and the children born since allotments have no
properties other "than that they have inherited
The Chairman. Wlien was that roll closed?
Mr. Carroll. In 1906, I think.
The Chairman. There have been no allotments since that time?
Mr. Carroll. No, sir.
The Chairman. Could you state approximately now how many
Indians are under your jurisdiction?
Mr. Carroll. I should say approximately 2,000.
The Chairman. What is the area of that reservation, Mr. Carroll ?
Mr. Carroll. The present Osage County was originally the Osage
Indian Reservation, embracing an area of approximately a million
and a half acres. . Osage County was created out of the Osage Indian
Reservation, as I recall it.
The Chairman. Your headquarters are located where?
Mr. Carroll. At Pawhuska.
The Chairman. IVliat is the general condition of the Osage
Indians — I think that would indicate in a general way what I want
to know. Are they prosperous ?
Mr. Carroll. That is a very broad question. Senator. I might
answer that by saying that I consider the Osage Indians cursed with
wealth and cursed with special legislation.
The Chairman. Now, you say they are cursed with wealth. "N^Hiat
property do they own, in a general way? As a matter of fact, they
are about the richest Indians in tribal funds and resources that we
have, are they not ?
Mr. Carroll. I think they are regarded as the richest people per
capita in the world. I have been so informed.
The Chairman. Do you know about what their per capita wealth
is?
Mr. Carroll. It is impossible to determine that at present. They
have an immense area, over 800,000 acres of land, that has never
been leased for oil and gas mining purposes; and if it is as rich in
minerals as that part that has already been exploited — at least partly
exploited — they are certainly very rich people.
The Chairman. AVliat part of it has been exploited, approxi-
mately, since you have been connected with the agency ?
Mr. Carroll. Mining operations, since I have been connected with
the agency, have been very limited. Most of the lands had already
been drilled on, you know. That is, the operations under the Foster
lease — what we sometimes call the " blanket lease " — there has not
been a gi-eat deal of development under that lease since I have been
connected with the agency.
The Chairman. Very little operation?
Mr. Carroll. Under the blanket lease.
The Chairman. What is that? Do you know?
Mr. Carroll. I believe the operators claim that they can not afford
to pursue active development when they have such a short tenure of
lease.
The Chairman. When is the expiration of their lease? Do you
know ?
I
J
OSAGE RESERVATION. 1393
Mr. Carroll. I believe it expires the IGth of ]\Iarch, 1916.
The Chairman. Do you know how long the lease was for?
Mr. Carroll. The lease was for 10 years. The lease was made
originally during the administration of Mr. Cleveland.
The Chairman. "What was the area of the Foster lease?
Mr. Carroll. The original lease in 1895 embraced the entire reser-
vation. But the renewal 10 years after that, in 1905, covered approxi-
mately 680,000 acres, leaving the balance open.
The Chairman. What is the extent of the operations that have
been conducted under that lease, and what has been paid to the
Indians on account of that Foster lease, if you can remember? Of
course, the lease itself would be the best evidence of that ; I presume
you are familiar with it.
Mr. Carroll. I expect that that lease is producing to-day approxi-
mately 38,000 barrels of oil, of which the Osages receive one-eighth in
royalty — say about 4,750 barrels a day, or about $4:,T50 a day. Oil is
worth now $1.05. Now, we have leased some territory since I have
been in charge of the agency
The Chairman. I wish you would tell the commission about that.
What leases have been made since you have been there, and what is
the approximate area of that, and in a general way to whom the
leases have been made?
Mr. Carroll. I hate to speak of these things without having the
records. My memory is not clear on all those points. I will give it
to you as best I recall, of course.
The Chairman. Of course, we understand that it will be purely
from memory.
^Mr.CARROLL When I took charge of the agency I found that the
department had, a few days before, promulgated regulations for
leasing the unleased portion of the Osage lands for oil and gas mining
purposes. Soon after that I was directed to prepare a map showing
the properties, 100,000 acres, for lease. That map was prepared, and
before the advertisement was inserted in the papers there were
requests from different sources to put up certain other tracts; and I
believe that the total amount of land was something like 107,000 acres
that we advertised at that time.
Those bids were opened on the 11th of November, 1912, as I recall,
and I think probably we leased about 25,000 acres of land — something
like that. I can not be sure.
The Chairman. The total area that has been leased since j'ou have
been connected with the agency is about 25,000 acres ?
Mr. Carroll. No; in September last. Senator, the office having
had before it some time another map of 100,000 acres which the
council had requested be leased, sent me a map of about 12,000 acres —
not quite 12,000, as I recall it. I was directed to advertise that land.
That was cut up into rather small subdivisions; nothing exceeding
160 acres. I think we leased under that advertisement about 10,000
acres. So I should say that since I have been in charge of the agency
something like 35,000 acres have been leased.
The Chairman. The other 25,000 related to the leases that had been
made prior to that last leasing in small holdings?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What are, in a general way, the terms of those
last small leases? Are they required to operate them a given time.
1394 OSAGE RESERVATION.
and what royalty or other consideration do they pay to the Osage
Indians for the leases?
Mr. Carroll. They provide a one-sixth royalty for the tribe; that
a well shall be begun, or operation shall be begun, within 90 days
from the date of the approval of the lease by the Secretary of the
Interior, and that within a year from that time the lessee shall have
drilled a well to such depth as the oil inspector of the Osage Nation
shall say is a proper depth, on every subdivision contained in his
lease regardless of its area.
The Chairman. What is the largest area?
Mr. Carroll. Well, the regulations of July 3, 1912, fixed the areas
from 320 to 5,120; 5,120 acres under those regulations would be the
maximum, but under this last letting, as I say, this area was IGO. I
rather think that was due to some extraordinary development in that
vicinity; some very large wells had been brought in, and it seemed
to be the psychological moment to sell the stuff in proximity to this
production, and I assume that the commissioner thought it advisable
to cut it up into very small tracts. In fact, that sale seemed to
justify his action anyway. It brought an exceedingly large bonus.
The Chairman. What did it bring, if you remember?
Mr. Carroll. The bonus offering on that land was a little in
excess of half a million dollars — the 10,000 acres sold in September
last.
The Chairiman. So that, whether or not there were any operations
at all on that 10,000 acres last leased in 160-acre tracts, the Indians
got a little more than half a million dollars?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now, supposing there are no operations within
the time fixed in the lease, do you loiow what will be the result?
Will the leases be forfeited, or what is the result ?
Mr. Carroll. The regulations provide a penalty of $2,000 for fail-
ure to drill a well on any one subdivision, and also that the Secretary
may cancel the lease.
The Chairman. It is optional with the Secretary whether or not
the lease shall be canceled?
Mr. Carroll. I should so interpret the reg^iilations.
The Chairman. Now, as to the 25,000 acres of other lands that
you leased, not including these leases of 160 acres in each tract, thy
rrea in those ranged from 320 to 5,120, if I remember you correctly ?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. W^hy was that distinction made? Why was there
such a difference in the areas?
Mr. Carroll. That was in strict conformity with the regulations,
which provided that these subdivisions — the maximum should be
5,120 and the minimum 320. In layiiig these out, the oil inspector
who prepared the maps suggested the smaller areas of 120 acres in
proximity to production, the maximum areas remote from pro-
duction.
The Chairman. Now, as to these several tracts that were leased
before you went to the agency, or afterward, do you know whether
or not there has been an effort on the part of any of the lessees to
suppress development and prevent production for the ostensible
purpose of discrediting the value of the lands and securing a new
OSAGE BESERVATION. 1395
lease? Do you know whether that is true as to any of the Foster
lands or not?
Mr. Carroll. I do not.
The Chairman. Do you know of cases where the wells that have
already been drilled have been plugged, as you might call it?
Mr. Carroll. No, sir.
The Chairman. Have any complaints been made to j^^ou as super-
intendent of the agency?
Mr. Carroll. No, sir.
The Chairman. Your attention has never been called to that at
all?
Mr. Carroll. No, sir.
Senator Lane. Do you know of any such action in any instance,
in the case of wells that would flow oil if they were not plugged?
Mr. Carroll, I can not conceive that would be possible, that a
man with a lease with only two years to run — if he had an oil well
it seems to me he would let it flow, when oil is $1.05 a barrel.
The Chairman. You have said that there has been very little de-
velopment of the Foster lease because of the fact that the lease
expires pretty soon. That was a 10-year lease in the beginning, was
it not?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What do you mean by that? What do you mean
by that statement that you can not conceive of a thing of that sort
happening?
Mr. Carroll. Just let me get your point.
The Chairman. You said awhile ago that the development of the
Foster lease had been very slow because the lease was soon to expire?
Mr. Carroll. Yes.
The Chairman. Why would not the same rule apply to that lease
as would apply to the alleged plugging of wells ?
Mr. Carroll. If I remember, I said that these operators claimed
they could not proceed with active development because of the short
tenure.
Senator Lane. That was 10 years?
Mr. Carroll. That was 10 years. I remember that argument was
advanced in their briefs to the Secretary of the Interior in last June
when the lessees assembled here and presented their petitions and
arguments for a renewal. They said that with such a short tenure
they could not proceed with active development ; that it took about
three years on an average for a well to pay for itself.
The Chairman. The}?- do not put down the wells any more, then;
but you do not know of any instance where a well that has been flow-
ing has been plugged in order to lessen the rental or royalty value of
the oil land?
Mr. Carroll. I know, on the contrary, that where wells have re-
cently, or comparatively recently, been drilled, and where an oil
pool was formed, we have had the most active development. I Imow
of 55 acres of land in that country that has been producing for more
than three months over $15,000 a day. Now, I can not conceive how
or why a man should
The Chairman. It is not a matter of argument, you know. I am
simply asking as a matter of fact. Of course, if you do not know
1396 OSA.GE RESERVATION".
that and it has not been called to your attention, that is another
13roposition. I myself would have some difficulty in understanding
it if it were true.
Now, do you know how many wells are in operation on the Foster
lease?
Mr. Carroll. No, sir.
The Chairman. What is tlie ax^rerage length of oil leases, and what
is the period of the leases that are now being made down there — those
that have been made since you went on the reservation ?
Mr. Carroll. These leases are what we usually call perpetual
leases. They are for 10 j^ears, but as long as oil and gas are dis-
covered— as long as oil flows. You understand, of course, that as
to the Osage Indian Reservation, before allotment, a lease could not
be made for a longer period than 10 years under the United States
statutes. That is the reason those leases had to be for 10 years
originally, and had to be renewed for 10 years, because at the time
of the renewal it was still an Indian reservation, and under the law
the lease could not extend beyond 10 years.
The Chairman. Do you know how many wells are in operation on
the Foster lease?
Mr. Carroll. Senator, I have some data down here at the Indian
Office. If I had it with me I could tell you exactly how many wells
have been drilled on the Osage Reservation.
The Chairman. Your memory is not sufficiently fresh to state it?
Mr. Carroll. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know whether any wells have been drilled
on that lease since you went there?
Mr. Carroll. On the Foster lease?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Carroll. Oh, yes.
The Chairman. Do you know how many?
Mr. Carroll. No, sir; I do not.
The Chairman. Where is the Barnsdall lease wtih reference to the
Foster lease?
Mr. Carroll. It is about half of the Foster lease.
The Chairman. Which part of the Foster lease?
Mr. Carroll. It is all through it. Senator. It is fine territory.
The Chairman. It is the pick of the oil lands in the Foster lease,
is it? Would you say that, in your opinion, roughly speaking?
Mr. Carroll. In my opinion — I do not think my opinion is worth
much on oil and gas matters, but if you ask for my opinion it is
that the Barnsdall people control probably as valuable territory as
there is in the Osage country.
The Chairman. How long has that been true?
Mr. Carroll. That has probably been true since 1907, since the
Barnsdall Oil Co. was organized.
The Chairman. "\^^iat other companies, if you remember, ha^■e
leased oil lands and gas lands within this reservation?
Mr. Carroll. A great many of them. I wish I had known tlie
character of this inquiry, because I could have brought from the
office a set of maps and accompanying schedules showing every oper-
ator and every well that was ever drilled, showing whether that well
is dry, oil-producing, or gas-producing, and could answer the^
questions very quickly.
OSAGE RESERVATION. 1397
Senator Laxe. Are there large numbers of them, or just a few?
Is there more than a dozen down there altogether?
Mr. Carroll. Oh, there are probably a dozen companies, with an
acreage each exceeding 5,000.
Senator Lane. Would they have more than one well?
Mr. Carroll. Oh, yes.
Senator Lane. There would be more than a dozen wells altogether
down there, then? I do not know anything about it. you know. I
would like to get some kind of an idea.'
Mr. Carroll. I guess the Barnsdall Co. has drilled approximately
a thousand wells.
• The Chairman. Is there anybody else operating on the Foster lease
except the Barnsdall people?
Mr. Carroll. Oh, yes. I should say there are a dozen companies
that control exceeding 5,000 acres, and that there are more than a
hundred companies and individuals that have less than 5,000 acres.
There are probably 140 individuals and companies subleasing, oper-
ating under the Foster lease.
The Chairman. Do you know whether these companies are organ-
ized in conjunction with one another, or whether they have any com-
mon directorates or interests in common, or are they independent of
one another? Do you know anything about that?
Mr. Carroll. I know something about the Barnsdall Oil Co.,
because I have recently investigated that.
The Chairman. Did you make the investigation that was recently
made regarding the Barnsdall Oil Co. ?
Mr. Carroll. I made one. Senator. I do not know whether it is
the one you are talking about or not. If that investigation disclosed
that the Barnsdall Oil Co. is controlled by the Standard, then I
made the investigation.
The Chairman. Then, as a matter of fact, the Barnsdall Oil Co.
is owned and controlled by the Standard?
Mr. Carroll. No question, sir.
The Chairman. Do j^ou know whether the other smaller com-
panies there are in the same position or not ?
Mr. Carroll. I hardly believe it. There is one other company
operating there, but not under the Foster lease, but having a lease
under the letting of November 11. 101-2 — the Carter Oil Co. — that is
a Standard Oil corporation.
The Chairman. Have you ever gone through the list of the
lessees there with a view to ascertaining whether and what number
of them were connected with the Standard Oil Co. ?
Mr. Carroll. Yes; I have a list of their stockholders and directors.
I have examined these lists, and that is the reason I am satisfied
that the Carter Oil Co. is a Standard corporation.
The Chairman. Has the Uncle Sam Oil Co. any leases in that
area ?
Mr. Carroll. Yes. sir ; they are sublessees of the Foster Co.
The CHAiR:\rAN. Do you know what area they control?
Mr. Carroll. Well, it is loss than 5.000 acres.
The Chairman. All told?
Mr. Carroll. I can not tell you exactly.
Tiie Chairafan. Do you know whether they are in any way con-
nected with the Standard?
1398 OSAGE RESEEVATION.
Mr. Carroll. I should not think they were.
The Chairman. Were you there in charge of the agency when the
controversj^ arose between the Standard and the other people and
the Uncle Sam Oil Co. as to the lease that the Uncle Sam Oil Co.
was claiming on certain of those lands?
Mr. Carroll. No. sir ; I inherited that.
The Chairman. Do you know what area the Uncle Sam people
claim to have leased from the Osage Indians through the council?
Mr. Carroll. Why, I should say two of those 201,000-acre leases;
probably 400,000 acres. I think they had only one lease of 201,000
acres, but I believe that they were to get. or did get, another one of
the same size. I do not recall.
The Chairman. You sa}^ you looked into the question of the Barns-
dall Oil Co. and found it was controlled and operated by the
Standard?
Mr. Carroll. Yes. sir.
The Chairman. Can you state from memory some of the circum-
stances that led you to that conclusion — some of the facts?
Mr. Carroll. I had been told by a number of people that Mr.
Barnsdall had borrowed from the Standard Oil Co. something like
$7,500,000 back in 1007, and had mortgaged all of his holdings in
the Osage and a lot of other equities for this loan, and that this
loan was due in February, I think, of this year, and that the prob-
ability was that he would not be able to pay it. Now, who told me
that I don't know. It is just one of those things that one will hear
from a number of sources in a community. It was general talk that
the Standard oAvned the Barnsdall — controlled it — by virtue of this
vast amount of money that thev had advanced. I went direct to the
Barnsdall people about it when I received a letter from the office
directing me to investigate it. I got very little information from the
Barnsdall Oil Co., but I finally got the information from Mr. Barns-
dall himself. I wrote him in Pittsburgh.
Representative Stei'iiens. ^Yl\o is he ^\liat office does he hold in
the company ?
Mr. Carroll. He has nothing to do with it. Judge.
Representative Stephp^ns. How would his information be reliable,
then ?
Mr. Carroll. I asked him to furnish me copies of his contract with
the Standard; just asked him to play his cards face up on the table.
The Chatriman. Did he furnish them to you?
Mr. Cx\RR0LL. Yes, sir — copies of his agreements.
The Chair]\[an. By records which are in the possession of the
commission and the Bureau of Indian Affairs, it appears that Mr.
Barnsdall represents a total area that that company owns leases on
of 32;^,K)0 acres approximately.
Do you knoAv W. J. Young?
Mr. Carroll. I haAe never met him. Senator.
The Chairman. He is the vice presidenr and general manager of
the Barnsdall Oil Co.?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And he is also representative for the Standard
Oil Co.?
Mr. Carroll. He has the management of the Barnsdall Oil Co.
under contract, at a salary of $15,000 a year, I believe; and he also
OSAGE BESERVATION. 1399
has the right to nominate anj^body in his place when he wants to
retire.
The Chairman. Now. I am interested to know whether all those
companies down there, or practically all of them, do not occupy
about the same relation to the Standard that the Barnsdall Co. does.
I believe you said you could not answer that ?
Mr. Carroll. I hardly think that is true.
The ChairjVlan. You have mentioned one company that you think
does. Do you know of others besides the Carter Oil Co. ?
Mr. Carroll. No, sir. Well, I want to qualify that. Of course,
the Prairie Oil & Gas Co. is admittedly a Standard Oil company.
They say so themselves.
The Chairman. That is generally understood to be a subsidiary of
the Standard?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Approximately, what area of land do they control
under lease on that reservation?
Mr. Carroll. "Whv. I expect about 30,000 acres — the Prairie Oil
& Gas.
The Chairman. Are they operating?
Mr. Carroll. Yes. sir.
The Chairman. Extensively?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Developing?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. When do their leases expire?
Mr. Carroll. It will expire on that area subleased from the
Foster people at the same time the Foster lease expires — March 16,
1916. But they have some lands leased under existing regulations.
They have, I think, about 400 acres.
The Chairman. What companies leased those 160-acre tracts?
Was that leased by independent operators or was it leased gener-
ally by operators already in the field?
Mr. Carroll. A great deal of that — about 4,500 acres as I recall
it, or somewhere along there — went to a West Virginia man. The
big companies, what we call the pipe-line companies — the Prairie
Oil & Gas, the Gypsy, which is a subsidiary of the Gulf Pipe Line—
they did not get a great deal of territory. They got what was con-
sidered the best territory, but it has turned out to be a pretty bitter
disappointment to the Prairie people.
The Chairman. Why?
Mr. Carroll. Because they have developed very little oil.
The Chairman. It did not prove as good as they thought it was?
Mr. Carroll. No.
The Chairman. Are they trying to develop it ?
Mr. Carroll. Yes. It seemed that thej^ had nothing to do but
offset wells that were jjroducing from 3,000 to 4,000 barrels a day.
The Chairman. What do you mean by " offset " ?
Mr. Carroll. Drilling 600 feet away just across the line.
The Chairman. Trying to tap them?
Mr. Carroll. Yes. And yet, I think, they have di'illed four or five
or six wells, and I believe their total production is something like 110
barrels.
The Chairman. AYhich. of course, is small for that territory?
1400 OSAGE RESEEVATIOlSr.
Mr. Carroll. Small for the bonus they paid — $220,000 bonus.
The Chairman. Have they already paid that?
Mr. Carroll. Oh, yes. They had to pay that before we would
make a contract with them. I think the most of that 10,000 acres
went to independent operators.
The Chairman. Now, I would like to know your view as to
whether it is desirable to permit this field to be monopolized by one
concern; or do you know of any disadvantages that would accrue to
the service if that were done ; or would you think it best to require
operations to be conducted by independent companies; and if so,
why? Have you given thought to that?
Mr. Carroll. Well, I have thought this wa5% Senator, that if this
were Government land, if this were public domain, and the Govern-
ment could apply to this country as well as to all its other country, a
certain fixed economic policy of development, it would be all right
and a good thing to do. For instance, exclude pipe-line companies
from bidding.
But the situation is this : The land belongs to the Indians ; and it
seems to me that we occupy the position in that matter that the guar-
dian does toward the ward, and that it is our duty to lease his lands
at the most advantageous price. In other words, to make a personal
matter of it. if I owned the Osage country individually, if it were
my personal property, it would not make a bit of difference to me
wiio got the land, so he paid me the most money. If Mr. Rocke-
feller himself offered me more than you or Judge Stephens or Senator
Lane, Mr. Eockefeller would get my land.
The Chairman. That is what I wanted to know. In j^our opinion,
then, it is purely a matter of how and from whom the best price can
be obtained for the Indians?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What is the total amount of royalties and other
incomes that you are now receiving per annum from oil-land leases
on account of the Osage Indians?
Mr. Carroll. Well, it is approximately $5,000 a day.
The Chairman. That would be how much per annum?
Mr. Carroll. About $1,800,000, wouldn't it?
The Chairman. $1,800,000 per annum?
Mr. Carroll. Yes.
The Chairman. Are there other lands to be leased that have not
yet been leased?
Mr. Carroll. Oh, yes.
The Chairman. What is the area of those lands — the oil and gas
lands?
Mr. Carroll. Well, we don't know, Senator, whether they are oil
and gas lands.
The Chairman. Do you lease them as oil and gas lands without
knowing whether they are or not?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
The Chairman, I mean to say, does the lessee take that chance?
Mr. Carrolt,. Oh, yes.
The Chairman. And the Prairie Co. made a bad bid? It took
some lands that did not prove as productive as they expected?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
OSAGE RESERVATION. 1401
The Chairman. Xow. what is the probable area of the additional
oil and gas lands that have not yet been leased, if you know? Do
you know whether the department has made an effort to determine
that or not?
Mr. Carroll. Well, I think it is a difficult matter to determine
from a surface investigation. It is a hard matter to look at the
surface of the country and say.
The Chairman. You have leased a large quantity of lands, for
instance, throughout the last year as oil and gas lands. Xow, you
have determined in' some way that they were oil and gas lands.
What I am anxious to loiow is whether there are additional areas
there; and if so, what is the extent of the area that may still be
leased as oil and gas lands?
Mr. Carroll. Well, I should say that this entire unleased portion
of 800,000 acres is worth testing for oil.
The Chairman. And may be considered of prospective value in
that particular?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now, are any other leases pending that have not
been approved; I mean, have leases been let that have not been
approved ?
Mr. Carroll. No, sir.
The Chairman. Whatever became of those Uncle Sam leases?
Were they rejected finally?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir; they w^ere disapproved.
The Chairman. Did you ever make any investigation into those
leases yourself?
Mr. Carroll. No, sir.
The Chairman. That was done before you went there?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I suppose you only know what somebody has told
you about that?
Mr. Carroll. That is all.
The Chairman. Do you know whether the lands that were cov-
ered in the leases claimed by the Uncle Sam people have' since been
leased, or any part of them?
Mr. Carroll. Yes; a part of them.
The Chairman. What area, do you know?
Mr. Carroll. I expect a considerable part of this entire area we
have leased— 25,000 and 10,000, making 35,000 acres. I won't be
sure about that.
The Chairman. That is my information, that that is true. I
presume I can get a list of these l&ssees of the small tracts from the
Commissioner of Indian Affairs. I do not suppose you would have
that, would you ? You probably would not have it in your office ?
Mr. Carroll. You mean the lands that were leased lately?
The Chairman. Yes; for instance, since Mr. Sells became commis-
sioner.
Mr. Carroll. Yes; I have that information in my room at the
Raleigh. I shall be very glad to let you have it.
The Chairman. The royalties under those leases are very high ?
Do you know the amount?
Mr. Carroll. That is a sixth in the new lease
The Chairman. And the bonus is also very large?
1402 OSAGE RESERVATION".
Mr. Carroll. Well, that depends-
The Chairman. Upon what?
Mr. Carroll. The bonus depends entirely upon the proximity of a
piece of land to production. If there is a producing well close by,
naturally this piece of land that we are offering that is adjoining or
near production will bring more bonus than land that is 2 miles or
5 miles away.
The Chairman. Because there is that much more chance that the
distant land will not have oil?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. But there is also this fact, that the more you in-
crease the number of wells in a small area the more you decrease the
production of the wells already existing near it? Or is that true?
Mr. Carroll. I think that is hardly considered to be the case by
operators. I believe that on a 40-acre tract, we will say, that is pro-
ducing oil they consider about eight wells sufficient to take care of
that area.
The Chairman. That any greater number would not be profitable ?
Mr. Carroll. You could not get any more oil by drilling a greater
number.
Representative Stephens. That is a well to 5 acres ?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, Judge; about that.
The Chairman. Do you know the total number of wells now in
operation in the Osage territory ? I mean on the Osage Reservation.
Mr. Carroll. No ; I do not, Senator, but I can get that information
for you.
The Chairman. Can you furnish me with a list of them for the
record ?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I wish you would make a note of these things as
we go along.
Now, this Gypsy Oil Co. you have referred to — do you know who
controls that?
Mr. Carroll. Well, Secretary Fisher maintained that the Gulf
Pipe Line Co. controlled it, and he turned down the leases of the
Gypsy Oil Co. made under the letting of November 11, 1912. The
Gypsy Oil Co. was a very active bidder, and that company secured
most of the lands that were offered. That is, they offered the highest
price and the council accepted the bids and we made out the leases
and sent them in for approval, and Secretary Fisher disapproved
them on the ground that the Gypsy Oil Co. was so closely allied to
the Gulf Pipe Line Co.
The Chairman. Who is that company? Is that a Standard
concern ?
Mr. Carroll. I do not think so, sir. But the regulations at that
time forbade pipe-line companies bidding. Now, the Secretary said
that the Gypsy was practically the Gulf, and therefore he would not
approve those leases. The regulations in that respect, as you are
probably aware, have since been changed.
The Chairman. Yes. What are the transportation facilities for
oil from this field to the markets ?
Mr. Carroll. There are three pipe-line companies.
The Chairman. Wliat are they ?
Mr. Carroll. The Gulf, the Prairie, and the Texas.
i
OSAGE RESERVATION. 1403
The Chairman. Are they supposed to be independent companies
and operating in competition with each other, or are they
Mr. Carroll,. I think so, sir.
The Chairman. What about the rates? Do they operate upon
uniform rates? I mean, does each company charge the same rates
for the same service?
Mr. Carroll. You see, the pipe-line companies buy the oil and
they fix the price of oil. The Prairie Oil & Gas usually takes the
initiative in advancing the price of oil. I will get a telegram, say
to-day, from the Prairie Oil & Gas that beginning to-day the Prairie
Oil & Gas will pay so much per barrel for crude. Well, immediately
the Gulf Pipe Line Co. and the Texas Co. issue notices meeting that.
Just as soon as the Prairie advances the price the other two pipe-
line companies inmiediately meet that price, so that they are paying
the same thing all the time.
The Chairman. There is really no apparent competition between
them ?
Mr. Carroll. There does not seem to be.
Representative Stephens. Do the prices fluctuate ?
Mr. Carroll. The price when I went to the country, Judge, was
70 cents, and it has gradually advanced. That was in July, 1912.
It has gradually advanced to $1.05.
Representative Stephens. Has the production decreased in accord-
ance with that?
Mr. Carroll. No, sir; the production has increased.
Representative Stephens. What do you attribute the advance to?
Mr. Carroll. I think the demand for oil.
The Chairman. Do vou know what the total output of that field
is, Mr. Carroll?
Mr. Carroll. The total output of the Mid-Continent field?
The Chairman. I mean of the Osage Reservation.
Mr. Carroll. It is nearly 43,000 barrels a day right now.
The Chairman. How are these leases made, Mr. Carroll? Explain
briefly the method of handling them.
Mr. Carroll. Now, we have advertised only two pieces of land
since I have been there: one on November 11, 1912
The Chairman. And the other was since?
Mr. Carroll. September.
The Chairman. Tell just how that was done.
Mr. Carroll. The office directs me to insert a certain advertise-
ment, which is prepared here, in the following newspapers and
periodicals for a certain period. And I send to these periodicals a
copy of this ad. with instructions to run that from a certain date
to' a certain date, and this advertisement sets forth that the fol-
lowing-described lands are offered for lease for oil and gas mining
purposes on the Osage Reservation. Okla., and that bids will be
opened at 2 o'clock p. m. on a certain day. Then it recites that
these bids must conform to regulations promulgated under date of
July 3, 1912, a copy of which will be furnished upon application to
the superintendent of the Osage Agency, etc.
Then, on the day of the letting, promptly at 1 o'clock, we gather in
the council room and the bids are brought in and opened and read
before such members of the council as desire to be present, or in the
presence of anybody.
1404 OSAGE RESEEVATION.
The Chairman. AMieii you say the '' coimcil *' you mean the Indian
council ?
Mr. Carroll. Yes.
The Chairman. And then you accept the highest bids, if they are
acceptable ?
Mr. Carroll. Xo, sir. We then make an abstract of those bids,
and the council is called into regular session, and the abstract of the
bids is presented to the council, and it is explained to the council
which are the most advantageous bids. The council takes the action,
whatever that may be.
The Chairman. So it is the policy of the bureau to make no leases
except those that are approved by the council ?
Mr. Carroll. The bureau can not.
The Chairman. That is another question, whether they can or not.
Anyway, since you have been there, it has not been done? No bids
have been accepted except those approved by the council?
]Mr. Carroll. No, sir.
The Chairman. Now, were you there when the alleged action of
the Osage Council Avas taken with reference to repudiating some oil
bids and leases, or had you taken charge of the agency at that time?
Mr. Carroll. Those leases had been disapproved, you know, before
I took charge of the Osage.
The Chairman. Were you there when the new council was formed
and when the old council was dispersed ?
Mr. Carroll. I was there when this council was elected and when
their predecessors were dismissed.
The Chairman. ^Miy were they dismissed? Do you know?
Mr. Carroll. Well, I should say that you ought to consult the let-
ter of the Secretary of the Interior, who dismissed them.
The Chairman. You did not do that?
Mr. Carroll. No, sir.
The Chairiman. This is a matter of record, and joii had nothing to
do with it?
Mr. Carroll. Nothing to do with it.
The Chairman. Do you know anything about that convoking or
organizing of the new coimcil?
5lr. Carroll. Not a thing in the world.
The Chairman. Were you present at their meeting?
Mr. Carroll. 1 appear at ever}- council meeting. The superintend-
ent calls the council in session, or the call may be made by the chief
It is usually done hj me on my own initiative when I think we have
some business before the council to attend to, or when the chief or
some members of the council request that they be called for some pur-
pose. Then I appear before them and give them what I have to give
them and retire. I do not remain in the council room.
The CiiAiRivrAN. AYere you superintendent of the agency when the
former council was dismissed by the Secretary? Were you there ^at
that time?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know about what date that was, Mr. Car-
roll?
Mr. Carroll. I believe it was in January.
The Chairman. Of 1913?
Mr. Carroll. Of 1913.
OSAGE RESERVATION. 1405
The Chairman. Do you knuw Avljeu tlie otiier council was called '.
Mr. Carroll. Well, there wa? ?m election, you knoAA'. called right
away.
The Chairman, How was that election held?
Mr. Carroll. That election was held a? provided in the act of 1906,
in the office of the agneey; and the adult inale members of the tribe,
you know, have the right of voting.
The Chairman. Do you register those who are going to vote? Just
give me an idea us to what actually occurs. Take, for instance, that
election at the time the new council was chosen. Tell me what oc-
curred there.
Mr. Carroll. There was a general notice of an election sent out.
The Chairman. Where was it sent, and to whom was it sent? I
sui)po!.e ycu are aware it has been claimed by some that that election
Avas partial, and no general notice was given, and that its integrity
has been assailed by some. Now. tell me what notice was given, and
how it was given.
Mr. Carroll. Notice was ;>ent oiit to Fairfax, Hominy, and
Pawhuska, Indian villages, and to what i^e call " dogie camp." No-
tices were sent to every field man t(> post conspicuously. The widest
kind of publicitj^ Avas given to that election.
The Chairman. That is within your control?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
The Chairiman. Hoav many Indians attended that election? Do
you knoAv?
Mr. Carroll. I think the vote was 168.
Senator Lane. Out of a total of how many Indians — 2,200?
Mr. Carroll. Not 2,200 votine- Indiar:s. Onh^ the adult males are
permited to vote.
Senator Lane. That is, 163 out of how many that would be en-
titled to vote ? Can you approximate ?
Mr. Carroll. Probably 300 — t-omething C'ver 300.
The Chairman. Has a list ol ttie voters been made, Mr. Carroll,
or do they just come in and vote from time to time? How is the
voting done ? Hoav was that election held ?
Mr. Carroll. Well, Ave had a box that I found there when I went
there; a box Avith a padlock on it : such f^ box as you would find at an
ordinary polling place.
The Chairman. A ballot box ?
Mr. Carroll. A ballot box. The ballots were printed. There
were judges of election. The polls were opened from (« o'clock in
the morning to 6 o'clock in the evening, as I recall it. I believe that
was the regulation. Everybody was permitted to vote that wanted
to vote.
The Chairman. That is, those that were entitled to vote?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you have more than one ticket? You say
ihe tickets were printed. Did you have just one ticket with the
names of the candidates ?
Mr. Carroll. Just one ticket, as I recall. There were mass meet-
ings held at Hominy, and Gray Honse, and Pawhuska, and then these
delegates met and agreed upon this ticket.
The Chairman. How many menjber& oi that council are there?
35601— PT 12—14 2
1406 OSAGE EESERVATION".
Mr. Carroll. There are eight councilmen. The principal chief
and assistant principal chief do not vote.
The Chairman. Has the Secretary of the Interior the power to dis-
miss any council, and under what conditions has he the power to
dismiss a council, if you iaiow ?
Mr. Carroll. If I recall, the act says he may do so for cause to be
by him determined.
The Chairman. Which, you think, practically leaves it discretion-
ary with him ? I assumed you thought that.
Mr. Carroll. It seemed to me that way. Senator.
The Chairman. That would seem to me, from the language you
used.
Representative Stephens, Do they permit women to vote?
Mr. Carroll. No, sir.
Representative Stephens. What are the requirements for men?
Over 21 years of age?
Mr. Carroll. Over 21.
The Chairman. Who has charge of the trust funds of the agency —
what official?
Mr. Carroll. Well, I guess I am responsible for it. Senator.
The Chairman. Who keeps the accounts?
Mr. Carroll. Oh, the accounts are kept by three or four clerks.
The Chairinian. I want to laiow exactly how you handle the trust
funds of the Osage Indians. Just assuming now that I do not know
anything about it, tell me how you handle them.
Mr. Carroll. The applications for the withdrawal of the funds
are made to the assistant superintendent. An Indian comes in, for
instance, and expresses a desire to make his application to withdraw
funds. He is referre<l to the assistant superintendent, who takes his
application and prepares a report and recommendation on the case.
When the claim is allowed, if it is allowed, when the funds come
out, they either come to be paid directly to the claimant and the
check or warrant is turned over and a receipt taken, or if they are
to be deposited and disbursed under my supervision the claimant is
asked to indorse the warrant, when it is deposited in some one of the
bonded banks that we have. Then authority is asked to approve his
checks for certain specific purposes. It may be for buying a team
of horses, $400, or we approve his check for $60 to buy a cow or
$1,700 to build a house
The Chairman. You have to get that authority from the Interior
Department here, the bureau ?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What is the total amount of the funds that you
handle on account of this tribe? Do you laiow?
Mr. Carroll. T do not know what it would amount to. You mean
the trust funds?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Carroll. The trust funds that the_y withdraw, do you mean?
The Chairman. No; I mean all the funds that you control.
Mr. Carroll. Every member of the Osage Nation, if his funds
have not been withdrawn, has in the Treasury to his individual
credit $3,819.76. That resulted from a segregation some years ago,
when they were allotted of the different tribal funds. That was
segregated, and each member of the tribe on this approved roll had
OSAGE RESERVATION". 1407
this amount placed to his credit. That draws 5 per cent interest,
which is payable to him quarterly.
The Chairman. AVhere is that fund actually carried?
Mr. Carroll, In the Treasury of the United States.
The Chairman. Now, you take these moneys that they collect on
account of the agency, includino; the oil royalties, etc., which you
say exceed approximately a million and a half dollars a year now.
How do you handle that? What do you do with it?
Mr. Carroll. That is deposited with the assistant treasurer at
St. Louis to the credit of the United States. When I get money from
any source it is deposited there. That is our nearest depositary, you
see.
The Chairman. What funds are carried, then, in local banks?
Mr. Carroll. We have no funds there except the funds of indi-
vidual Indians — individual Indian moneys.
The Chairman. What is the amount of that?
Mr. CarroiJj. Well, it is a considerable sum. I do not know that
T could tell you. We have probably 14 or 15 bonded banks; some
even outside the State, some up in Kansas. A bank that qualifies as
a depositary may receive as much as its capital stock, but no more.
The Chairman. Do you collect interest on that?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir; we make a contract with them. We adver-
tise when we want depositaries, and ask for bids — bids on checking
accounts and bids on time deposits. Those bids are submitted to the
office, and the office accepts or rejects these bids, and finally advises
us that such and such a bank is now qualified as a depositary.
Representative Stephens. Is that a ruling of the office, or is it an
act of Congress?
Mr. Carroll. I am inclined to think it is the rule of the office.
Representative Stephens. I think so, too; that is my remembrance,
Mr. Carroll, I do not recall any statute covering it.
The Chairman. Can you tell me about how much of those kind of
funds the agency is carrying now in the different depositaries?
Mr. Carroll. I can not offliand.
The Chairman. Who actually keeps the account? You do not do
it yourself?
Mr. Carroll. Oh, no. Mr. George Beaulieu,
The Chairman. He is a clerk in your office?
Mr. Carroll. Yes. sir. He is a Chippewa Indian.
The Chairman. Under what conditions are these Indians permit-
ted to withdraw their funds?
Mr. Carroll. Well, all of them under some condition or other
may be permitted. That depends; each individual application has
to be judged on its own merits.
The Chairman. I know; but an Indian can not just go and draw
a check on those depositaries?
Mr. Carroll. No. I say. I have to get specific authority.
The Ciiair:man. He applies to you, and recites the purpose for
which he wants to draw his mone}'^?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You approve it. or make a representation to the
bureau, and the commissioner then i)asses on it. and either approves
it or rejects it?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
1408 OSAGE RESERVATION.
The Chairman. At all events, in all cases the authority is given
to draw for a specific purpose?
Mr. Carroll.. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. To buy stock, to buy machinery, to build a house,
or some other purpose supposed to be for the benefit of the Indians?
Mr. Carroll. For the benefit of the Indians; yes, sir.
The Chairman, j^ow, after that permission is given, and the
checks are authorized to be drawn, who actually draws the check?
Do you do it, or the Indian himself?
Mr. Carroll. We draw it in the office.
The Chairman. What do you do with it?
. Mr. Carroll. We have him sign it. I countersign it; and if it is
for a team of horses, for instance, we have the horses inspected, and
draw the check to the man who furnishes the horses, etc. If it is to
build a house, we usually, on approval of a contract for the house,
withdraw the amount when the house has been inspected by one of
our men and pronounced built according to the plans and specifi-
cations.
The Chairman. Who gets actual possession of the check? The
man to whom the obligation is due, or the Indian himself?
Mr. Carroll. The man to whom the obligation is due.
The Chairman. Have you, in any instance that you can recall,
gotten authority for Indians to build houses and then enabled them
to use their checks for the payment of other indebtedness ?
Mr. Carroll. Well, I do not think so, Senator.
The Chairman. Do you know Brenner & Bird, at Pawhuska?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. AVhat business are they in?
Mr. Carroll. I think in business of loaning money to Indians.
They are officers of banks and different business enterprises.
The Chairman. Do you know whether they are in the habit of
loaning money to Indians at excessive or exorbitant rates of interest?
Mr. Carroll. I am inclined to think they loan money usually at
the rate of 10 per cent a quarter.
The Chairman. That would be 40 per cent per annum ?
Mr. Carroll. Forty per cent per annum.
The Chairman. That is an exorbitant rate of interest, of course.
Mr. Carroll. Unquestionably.
The Chairman. What is the legal rate of interest in Oklahoma ?
Mr. Carroll. Ten per cent per annum.
The Chairman. They construe that into 10 per cent a quarter.
Do you know the extent of their operations in that particular? Of
course, I do not suppose you could state it exactly, but have you
looked it up to see how much money has been paid to Brenner & Bird
on account of these loans through your office ?
Mr. Carroll. No, sir.
The Chairman. Would you have any means of finding that out?
Mr. Carroll. We could find it out.' I think they would be very
glad to give me the figures if requested.
The Chairman. Who? Brenner & Bird ?
Mr. Carroll. I think so.
The Chairman. Why would they be glad to give you the figures?
Mr. Carroll. They claim they are not making any money out of
the business.
OSAGE RESERVATION. 1409
The Chairman. At 10 per cent a quarter?
Mr. Carroll. Yes. I tell you, Senator, there is no doubt that on
the face of it that is an outrage.
The Chairman. I should think it is — on the face and on the inside.
Mr. Carroll. Just a minute. I am not defending Brenner & Bird.
I just want to make this statement : There are people in Osage
County who are charging even more than that. For instance, I in-
vestigated a case one day
Senator Lane. To whites or Indians ?
Mr. Carroll. To Indians. I investigated a case one day where I
am satisfied a fellow never got but $10, but yet he said he signed a
note for $190.
The Chairman. How many cases of that sort have come to your
attention ?
Mr. Carroll. I have had a good many cases of the rottenest kinds
of deals.
The Chairman. I have never had such a case as the one you state,
but I have found a number of cases where it appears to me they have
given a note, for instance, for $200 and got $100, half the amount
they agreed to pay interest on, and then paid $50 and were sued for
$75. That is to say, they only got half the money they were sup-
posed to have borrowed, and got credit for half the money they paid.
Mr. Carroll. No doubt about that at all.
The Chairman. Those operations, you say, do occur?
Mr. Carroll. Oh, I know they do.
Senator Lane. You are the superintendent of the Indians there, are
you, and put there to look out for their welfare?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Have you done anything to stop this?
Mr. Carroll. I have preached to those people, Senator, ever since
T have been there to stop signing notes. I said, " You are the richest
people in the world per capita, and you are correspondingly the
deepest in debt. You are hog tied. You can not get away, not a
one of you. If you had $1,000 a day it would not do you any good."
Senator Lane. Have you any authority to stop these loans?
Mr. Carroll. Not at all. Now, here is what I started out to say
with reference to the 10 per cent a quarter. Any Osage Indian who
has the proper security, who can furnish the proper collateral or
proper indorsement can borrow money from any bank down there as
cheaply as I can. I will make that statement to start with. I have
a man here, Fred Lookout, who can go to the First National Bank
at Pawhuska any time and borrow two or three or four thousand
dollars, because they know Fred has got the stuff and he will pay
his obligations. There are a lot of people who have not got that
security, many of whom are not going to pay when they borrow,
and, aside from that, who are going to be an interminable trouble
every day from the time you get their names on your books. And
when you remember the trouble that you are going to have with some
people in collecting these obligations, and when you bear in mind
that the death of an Osage Indian automatically cancels his debts —
because the law itself provides that neither the lands nor the funds
of an Osa^e Indian are liable for debt — you will see that 10 per cent
a quarter is not as big as it looks when you first think of it.
1410 OSAGE EESEBVATION.
The Chairman. The idea being that the fellows who do pay, in
the end, must make up the losses occasioned by the fellows who die,
and for that reason fail to pay, and those who for any cause fail to
pay?
Mr. Carroll. The fellows that do pay have to pay at an enormous
rate.
The Chairman. Do you know Rosa Baconrind?
Mr. Carroll. Oh, yes.
The Chairman. Do you know how her trust funds are handled?
Mr. Carroll. No, sir; I do not.
The Chairman. Do you know whether or not Mr. Bird handled
these funds privately and dealt them out as he desired ?
Mr. Carroll. I know that he did not.
The Chairman. How do you know that?
Mr. Carroll. Because I know that nobody ever did that while I
have been superintendent of the agency.
The Chairman. Do you know the Citizens' National Bank there?
Mr. Carroll. I do.
The Chairman. "Who is the president of that bank?
Mr. Carroll. Mr. Vandervoort.
The Chairman. Do you know John and Mary McFall and know
of their making a loan direct?
Mr. Carroll. No, sir ; I do not know of any loans from the banks.
The Chairman. You would not know of that?
Mr. Carroll. Not unless it was brought to my special attention.
The Chairman. How would it be brought to your attention?
Mr. Carroll. Well, suppose we had authority to settle the debts of
an Indian. Suppose an Indian came in and said, " I want to with-
draw my funds and use part of it paying everything I owe. I am
harassed by my creditors." I have had cases like that. I have
taken him at his word, and where I thought he was sincere, where I
Imew he was involved and he wanted to use his money for that pur-
pose, I thought it was a proper purpose to let him use it for, pro-
vided that he had somebody to determine what he justly owed. In
other words, I ha^e taken the position that it was a proper use of
trust funds to pay honest debts. I think any man ought to pay his
honest debts, whether he is a white man or an Indian or anybody
else. And I have recommended a good many applications for claims
for that purpose. Now, where we have paid claims of different per-
sons through my office I am veiy sure that we have not paid any
exorbitant rate of interest. In fact, if I had my books
The Chairman. How would you find out about that? What would
you do? Supposing you were doing jus'l what you say ycai think
you ought to do, and supposing Brenner & Bird, for instance, had
an Indian's note, signed by him for $200. Would you go back of the
note and find out that he actually got the money?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
The Chairjman. Hoav would you go about it?
Mr. Carroll. I ask the Indian first when he borrowed this money.
"How did you happen to owe Brenner & Bird $200?" "Well,'l
borrowed so much at a certain time." *' How much did jou borrow? "
" One hundred and fifty dollars." " When was this?" I get out and
find out when it was he got the money and calculate it at the legal
rate of interest from that time.
OSAGE EEPERVATION. 1411
The CHAiR^rAx. Supposing he tells yo^: one tale and rlic banker
(ells you another tale ? Suppose the teller of the bank says. '* He owes
us $200, and here is his note.'"
Mr. Carroll. We always settle on the word of the Indian. Here
is the point. Senator: To find out what the Indian wants to pay. If
there were 10 accounts here presented against him, " Now, what is it
you want to pay? You say you want to pay your debts. AATiat is it
you want to pay ? " Let him tell me that, and then go into that claim
and find out whether it is a just claim or not.
Kepresentative Stephens. In other word;^. you select the claims?
Mr. Carroll. Let him select them.
The Chairman. Do you recall the case of Paul Albert, of Paw-
huska. an Osage Indian who had been given a certificate of com-
petency and who made application for part of his trust fund —
$1.800 — for the purpose of building ;; house, fencing his land, and
buying a horse and buggy ?
Mr, Carroll. No. sir.
The Chairman. You do noi recall anything about that case?
Mr. Carroll. In the handling of these trust funds. Senator. I
have had three people in immediate supervision. First was Mr.
Whiting, who resigned last May. He was succeeded by a Mrs. Rap-
ley, who went out from the Indian Office. She was succeeded later by
Mr. Haygood. the assistant superintendent. Personally. I liave
handled very few cases.
The Chairman. Who does handle those cases ?
Mr. Carroll. As I say. the assi<=tant superintendent. These three
people have had that particular v^ork.
The Chairman. You could not ^el] me anything about that case
then <
Mr. Carroll. I should be glad to tell you what the records show^
as to Paul All>ert. if you want that, sir.
The Chairman. I should like very much to know. Do you know
George Tayrien ?
Mr. Carroll. I do not believe I do. sir. I know William Tayrien
pretty well.
The Chairman. Do you know anything about a land transaction in
which George Tayrien was interested down there ? Do you recall
anything about it '. Was it ever called to your attention ? "
Mr. Carroll. No. sir. We have not sold any land since I liave
been there, Senator.
The Chairman. I am not informed.
Mr, Carroll. I did not think it was advisable to sell any of those
lands.
The Chairman. I really did not know when you went there, and
I am inclined to think that this transaction may have occurred, and
probably did occur, before you went there.
Mr. Carroll. You see. they had four years of continuous drought,
and I thought it was bad policy to sell those lands. They were not
bringing anything anyway.
The Chair:man. Did you know about the case of an Indian by the
name of John A. Fugaite. who took his trust fund and bought some
mares and an automobile, and claimed that he got robbed in the deal ?
Mr. Carroll. No, sir. I could not sav that that is so. I expect he
was robbed all right. As a matter of lact. Senator, while we are on
1412 OSAGE RESERVATION.
tliat, more than half the Osage Indians are what we call on the roll
" mixed bloods." The great majority of those people, of those
mixed bloods, are as competent, from my point of view — you under-
stand I am giving you my opinion—are' practically white people, as
competent as the average citizen of the community in which they live,
and should be absolutely divorced from governmental supervision.
The Chairman. Of course, if they are that competent, that ought
to be done, but if it has not been done, you know, and w^e are assuming
to exercise a guardianship and espionage over them, that raises a
different question.
Mr, Carroll, Here is the point.. Let us take the matter of trust
funds. The act provides that these funds may be withdrawn in the
discretion of the Secretary of the Interior when he thinks it is to
the best interest. Now, I have been endeavoring for some time to get
the office — not lately, but under the former administration when I
took charge of the Osage, I endeavored to get the office to give me its
view of a competent Indian. What do you mean by the word " com-
petent " ? Do you mean the man who has made a success ? If you
are measuring competency by the yard stick of commercial success,
if a man must show two talents for every one that he has ever re-
ceived, I can count the competent Osages on the fingers of that hand.
Representative Stephens. Who determines the competency, Mr.
Carroll? How do you arrive at that?
Mr. Carroll. That is a question of opinion, Judge. My point of
view is, as I say, that a great many of those people are competent;
that it would be to their best interests if they had everything in the
world they have got and went through with it^ — if they went broke.
I regard it as unfortunate— maybe I am getting too enthusiastic
here ?
The Chairman, No; go ahead.
Mr. Carroll. I do not like to put too much of this in the record,
Senator, but I do feel that the solution of the Osage situation, which
is the most serious thing I have ever seen in my 18 years of Indian
experience, where you do not see the results, where a man knows that
he is not accomplishing anything — do you get the idea?
The Chairman. Yes; I do.
Mr. Carroll. Suppose you were engaged in a business and the time
never comes when you feel that you have done anything, when you
have accomplished anything, when you hav6 done any real construc-
tive work? Why, out there on that little Apache Reservation that
you gentlemen visited, as you rode up that canyon there, that good
road that was built by those Indians
The Chairman. The Mescalero?
]\Ir. Carroll. Yes. When those ptjor devils, who have been pinched
with cold and hunger, were informed that there was money available
thev would climb over each other to go and work on that road at
a dollar and a quarter a day. Show me a condition like that and I
will show you where a man can accomplish something.
The Chairman. Well, the Osage Indians are rich. They have more
money than any connnunity of white people in the world that I have
heard of. As you said at the beginning of your statement, they are
the wealthiest people in existence. They are restricted, are they?
Is it your idea that the restrictions ought to be removed, and that
they ought to be practically all turned loose?
OSAGE RESERVATION. 1413
Mr. Carroll. Not practically all of tlifiii; no. I say the great
majority of what we call the mixed bloods. The mixed bloods out-
number the full bloods a little. Xow. I say the majority of those
mixed bloods and some full bloods should be diverced from govern-
mental supervision, turned loose — give them their lands and their
money — and with the balance I would exercise a litle closer super-
vision than we are exercising.
The Chairman. Take the numerous cases of Indians who have bor-
rowed a certain sum of money and have been compelled to pay 10 per
cent per quarter interest on amounts largely in excess of the amount
they actually got. Is that class of Indians competent, in your
judgment?
Mr. Carroll. Some of them are. Senator, I think.
The Chairman. Your idea is that they are going to be robbed any-
way and they had better be turned loose, and the sooner it is over
with the better?
Mr. Carroll. I do not think that, Senator.
The Chairman. I am curious to know your viewpoint. I realize it
is a great problem.
Mr. Carroll. "Wlien I find out. for instance, that an Indian who is
practically a white man has taken his trust fund and bought an auto-
mobile and landed up in Chehalis, in the State of Washington, and
hocked his automobile arid begins to telegraph for money, I think
he has done the proper thing. I think he is in a good plight. I do
not see how you can regulate or legislate frugality into an3'bod3^
Tlie Chairman. But here is the point: ^Vlien we assume that he is
not frugal and that he can not be frugal, and we appoint somebody
to supervise him, we are under some obligation to see that the man
that supervises him is frugal for him. That is a distinction, I think,
that needs to be made.
Mr. Carroll. Yes ; that is all right.
The Chairman. Now, is it not a crime against the laws of Okla-
homa to take an Indian's note for $"200 or $190 and let him have
actually $10?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How many of those cases have you known?
Mr. Carroll. That one case was the most exaggerated.
The Chairman. How many similar cases have you known?
Mr. Carroll. Oh, probably two or three dozen cases that have
been reported to me, where my investigation leads me to a point
where I am morally sure and yet unable to jjrove the fact.
The Chairman. How many of those cases have you called to the
attention of the United States district attorney?
Mr. Carroll. I do not think I have called any.
The Chairman. Have there been no prosecutions of that kind?
Mr. Carroll. No, sir ; I do not think so.
The Chairman. Don't you think that if you had reported those
cases to the district attorney he might at least have checked that
fraud on them — that is, such a common and coarse form of fraud?
Mr. Carroll. Is that part of the duties of the district attorney?
Wouldn't that be a civil action in the county courts?
The Chairman. You have just said it was a crime, and I should
think that a superintendent of an agency who has had a dozen cases
of that sort with the Indians under his supervision would feel dis-
1414 OSAGE RESERVATION.
posed to call it to the attention of the district attorney. That would
be a matter, however, for your determination. I have an idea,
though, that if I were superintendent of an agency and one case of
that sort was called to my attention I would call it to the attention
of the district attorney and let him see
Mr, Carroll. "Wliat he could find out ?
The Chairman. Yes; what could be done about it.
Mr. Carroll, I make it a rule, of course, to bring to the attention
of the attorney every case where we think there is any chance of
prosecution. I do not feel we have been remiss in that respect; but
to write the district attorney that I believe that John Jones actually
loaned this fellow $10 and got his note for $190, and I wish you would
investigate — I am afraid the attorney w^ould think I was quite a
nuisance.
The Chairman. No; I do not think so, I do not think there is
an officer in the United States that w^ould not be glad to have that
kind of a case called to his attention if he wanted to do his duty,
because, under the laws of every State in the Union that I have
examined, it is plainly a criminal offense. In any event, I feel that
if those Indians are under your supervision and those cases are called
to your attention, you might do something to try to stop that kind
of transaction, and that a failure to call it to the attention of any
proper prosecuting officer or grand jury or court of the United
States tends to acquiesce in it, to encourage it. to promote it.
Now, I want to ask you about another matter.
Mr. Carroll. I was just going to say this in relation to com-
petency. I w'as discussing this sometime ago in my office with the
employees. I made the statement that if a man's competency were
to be determined by the yardstick of success in business, that the
only employee at the Osage Agency who would come within that
classification would be the old negro messenger.
Senator Lane. That applies to whites as well as Indians?
Mr. Carroll. Oh, yes. Senator.
Senator Lane, Over 90 per cent of all business enterprises fail, do
they not?
Mr, Carroll. None of us in the office, save this old negro mes-
senger, who gets tlie smallest salary, have anything to show for
the money we have made.
Senator Lane, You are not beating the Indian much, then, on your
record in that respect?
Mr. Carroll. Well, no; but I mean this — I would be offended
with anybody who said I was not competent.
Senator Lane, I understand. The conclusion is that if you fail,
and the Indian fails too, you are all going down the same road. I
do not see where the distinction comes in.
The (^hairman. That is just what he says. He does not make any
distinction,
Mr, Carroll, I say I think a man may be competent and yet be a
business failure.
Representative Stephens. Mr, Carroll, is it not often the case that
a rich man dies and leaves his sons with a large estate, and they
squander it and never do any good until the last dollar is gone, and
very often those fell<»ws go to work and make good men?
Mr. Carroli>. Oh, yes.
OSAGE KESERVATION. 1415
Representative Stephens. I have seen that often myself.
Mr. Carroll. I wanted to say this further, Senator, with refer-
ence to your point about the district attorney: We have had quite
an anomalous situation down there for some time. In fact, it was
there when I went there and still exists. Our tribal attorney, who,
of course, gets the lion's share in the way of salary — $5,000 a year
The Chairman. Who is your attorney?
Representative Stephens. Mr. Shinn.
Mr. Carroll (continuino;). $5,000 a year and traveling expenses,
against $2,750 for the superintendent, and $150 of that for a bond —
but the superintendent is not making any play for more salary^ — ■ — -
The Chairman. Of course, Mr. Carroll, some of the biggest prob-
lems in the service are connected Avith that agency. It is due to a
culmination of circumstances. The large amount of property and the
controversies that have arisen over the leases are only two of the
circumstances that affect that problem. Is there a feeling of hos-
tility between the white people and the Indians in that country?
Mr. Carroll. Wh3^ I do not think so, Senator. You must remem-
ber this — don't forget this all the time: That so many of those In-
dians are white people
The Chairman. To all intents and purposes.
Mr. Carroll. I am living next door to a member of that nation
whose children are in my house every day, whose family far outdress
mine. T can not afford to dress my little girls as he dresses his.
The Chairman. He is rich?
Mr. Carroll. He is rich and I am poor. They are intelligent;
they are refined. "Wliy, there are a lot of those people, you know,
who are white people. They are not blanket Indians.
Representative Stephens. Chief Brown himself is a white man?
Mr. Carroll. Yes; he is a white man. You have to divide those
people into two classes before you can do anything.
Now let me finish this. I started to tell you about this condi-
tion of the tribal attorney. I have felt that the attorney should be
in the office of the Osage Agency : should have his office right there
and his library there : and that every legal question that is involved
in any communication or any complaint that involves a matter of
law or investigation ought to be turned over to that attorney. He
can be furnished with a good library, a good stenographer, and be
the legal adviser to the office and the department and to the Osage
Nation and to any individual Indian who wants advice.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, how is it handled now?
Wliat does the attorney do? Where does he Hac?
Mr. Carroll. He lives in town. He has an office doAvn town.
The Chairman. Does he do a general practice?
Mr. Carroll. He does a general practice.
The Chairman. Have you known of cases Avhere he took retainers,
or his firm, where the interests of his special clients proved adverse
to those of the Osage Indians ?
Mr. Carroll. I do not knoAv of cases. Senator. I have heard it
intimated once or twice that he had done things of that kind. I
would rather saj' this to you privately.
The Chairman. Of course, I Avould like for you to state anything
you can for the record. If it is a matter of opinion, of course, it
1416 OSAGE EESERVATION.
would not be proper, perhaps, to put it in the record. If you have
knowledge about it — —
Mr. Carroll. I have no knowledge. I think that if the tribal
attorney in the future — if his relation to the office were such as I think
it should be, the work down there would be very much facilitated.
The Chairman. Is it not a fact that the tribal council is insisting
upon the retention of the present attorney ?
Mr. Carroll. I do not know what the attitude of the council is.
The Chairman. I have some information to that effect.
Mr. Carroll. I imagine the council feels friendly toward the
attorney.
(Here followed a short informal discussion which was not re-
ported.)
The Chairman. What official duties do you know of the tribal at-
torney for the Osages having performed during the time you have
been superintendent of that reservation. What has he actually done
that you know of?
Mr. Carroll. I think he has filed a supplemental brief in one case,
involving title to a piece of land on the Arkansas River — an allot-
ment; that he has made a few trips to Washington, Guthrie, and
around on official business in the interest of matters which he evi-
dently considered justified him in incurring these expenses; also that
he has met with the council in its various sessions and drawn reso-
lutions for them, assisting them in the preparation of their minutes,
and in general, that he has discharged the duties imposed by his
contract.
The Chairman. What is the total number of employees at your
agency ?
Mr. Carroll. I think about 15.
The Chairman. Are you doing any demonstration work in agri-
culture or anything of that sort?
Mr. Carroll. No, sir.
The Chairman. Have you a school there, an agency school?
Mr. Carroll. We are doing a litle there at the school ; that is all.
The Chairman. What is the total number of pupils in that school?
Mr. Carroll. I think probably 75 or 80.
The Chairman. Are there other schools on the reservation?
Mr. Carroll. Not for the Indians; but they are admitted to any
public school.
The Chairman. How do they seem to get along in the public
schools?
Mr. Carroll. I think they are gettiii^r along pretty well. The only
question is their attendance. It is difficult to secure regular attend-
ance. That is the trouble.
The Chairman. Do you know what the school population of the
Indians of that tribe is, approximately?
Mr. Carroll. Probably 900.
The Chairman. What are the health conditions among the Osages?
Mr. Carroll. I think they have pretty good health, comparatively
speaking.
The Chahiman. Have they much tuberculosis among them?
Ml*. Carroll. Not a great deal; not as much as some of the other
Indian tribes.
The Chairman. Trachoma?
OSAGE EESERVATION. 1417
Mr. Carkoll. We do not have that to the extent that some of the
southwestern Indians do.
The Chairmax. Trachoma is reputed to be quite common among
most of the Oklahoma Indians.
Mr. Carroll. They have some there; but I am only comparing it
with the Apaches, for instance, with whom I lived so long. I would
say it is not so prevalent there as among the Apaches.
The Chairmax. Do you know an Indian described by the name of
Nora Childers. with a guardian by the name of Millard?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
The Chairmax. Has any disposition been made of her property?
Mr. Carroll. No, sir.
The Chairmax. An application was formerly pending for author-
ity to sell it?
Mr. Carroll. Yes.
The Chairmax^. That action has been suspended?
Mr. Carroll. It was not taken. There was something that stopped
it. We have a special man there, and have had him for several
months, going through all those old guardianships and administra-
tions.
The Chairmax. The commissioner has been investigating that very
fully.
Mr. Carroll. I wrote the commissioner some time ago and put
that up to him, and recommended that he send a man out there, and
he promptly complied with my request.
The Chairmax. Have you many professional guardians or admin-
istrators among your Indians? I mean, who are appointed for the
Indians?
Mr. Carroll. Well, I do not think so.
The Chairmax. Do you know Mr. Ed. Kennedy?
Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.
The Chairmax. Do you know how many he is guardian or admin-
istrator for?
Mr. Carroll. I do not.
The Chairmax. Do you know how many Brenner and Bird ara
guardians or administrators for?
Mr. Carroll. I do not. They could not be for more than five.
That is the State law.
The Chairmax". How long has that been in force ?
Representative Stephexs. I think that is a recent rule.
The CHAiR:\rAx. Yes; quite recent. Have you many farm-land
leases on that reservation?
Mr. Carroll. A great many, Senator.
The Chairmax. Who approves them?
Mr. Carroll. They are approved by the Secretary of the Interior.
The Chairmax. Do you know of any cases where oil wells have
been sunk on land not leased by the trespassers?
Mr. Carroll. The lands not leased?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Carroll. No, sir.
The CHAiR:\rAX, Your attention has never been called to any cases
where they have just gone out and put down a well on lands they did
not have a lease on?
Mr. Carroll. No. sir.
-^^-j^g OSAGE RESERVATION.
The Chairman. Do you know Met-See-No or Mary Mudd, an
Osage Indian widow ? %
Mr. Carrou.. I think I do. *
S.^ ^:^::r\:^si:Z:t'S^.r o« . Hot Spnngs or
somewhere else recently. I won't be sure
Sr g:^Sr.''T S,tort1ifr any^^ilC^e what you would
'^ThfcH'uBMA.. Do you know whether she has suffered for any
of the necessities of life or not?
™Th"e^CHURMAN. How is medical assistance procured for the In-
instances? . enppific case. For instance,
^ we t*raX'?hJ'f:'. ""/n^ttat^ca. we have a check drawn
'"ThrC^uBMAN. mat do you consider the most serious problem
'tfc'ilL. w.n, 11 1.1... -to.! » ."*■ ""■ » ""<' "■• ■"
estate to determine the heirs, you know. hpir^hin that
the theory being that the force '"tl^e office has not Deen ^^^
to be a tenable objection. , , , , ,«.
Mr. Carroll. No; that would not seem to be.
OSAGE RESERVATIOX. 2420
The Chairman. What has this to do with it '^ Ohp n^^ fi.. ^ .
Mr. Carroll. I mean this particular court.
Ihe Chairman. I understood you that way. I am speakino- now
ot the general trouble Wliv shonlrl nr.f o i i ^P^fi^^ing now
the imnfediate locality of the^aS and ha W 'T\' '''\^'I'^ ^^
necessarily comes to one wh'if necessary a Ste^T n W X'^wifh
Ih^n^btrinThTbu^^^^^^^^ -- '' ^^*^- ablird^eSi^et
Mr. Carroll. I think the principal trouble with the act i^ it«
rec'o"^^^^^^^^^ ^^r^ ^{^^^^^ department are unablVto
seems ^'''''' ^^ "^^ ^^^ ^^^ to determine it, it
Mr rA„ROT vi -^'i """ °* "'^ counties of Oklahoma ?
^^Ejre,entative S^phexs. The Indians are all voters there, are
theTha?a"'rightl'" ""' ''""" ""■^- '"' ™'^' l'"' ^ ^>'-"<' '^ink
Mr'^S : ri-r"^'^, t '^'^y l'»>d any of tl^e'Sty offices.
(The loint commission tliereupon proceeded to other business.)
Dkpartmknt of the Interior.
Ofi-ice of Indian Superintendent
fy^tor^l'tuJ^^'^^^^.l^^^^^^^y before your oonnnittc.. while in Wash-
if certain IndSl S SSf,^^^^^^^^^ '""^ clisposition of tlie trust funds
. ». auu artei wards piomised you personally to send you some
1420 OSAGE EESERVATION.
information from tbe records concerning tlie cases of Rose Bacon Rind, Paul
Albert. John and Mary McFall, George Tayrien, and John A. Fngate, and have
attached a separate memorandum in each case.
I also inclose a paper which each Indian and creditor was required to sign —
the creditor under oath — before any check would be drawn. In all cases
Indians wore cosely questioned as to items and amounts, and unless an Indian
was reasonably certain that the account was correct and he wnnted to pay it
there was no settlement. If the creditor and the Indian could not agree, the
creditor had to accept what the Indian said he owed or nothing. The burden
of proof was always upon the creditor, but if he proved his claim and did not
convince the Indian the Indian was not allowed to pay through the oflSce. It
was the volunta)'y payment of an acknowledged and seemingly just debt or
there was nothing j»aid.
Hose Bacon Rind has never asked to have a house built. She did ask to have
her debts paid, and all facts were before the Indian Office and the department
when her claim was allowed.
Although Rose does not read nor write she is an intelligent woman, and has
spoken and understood English from childhood. If you care to have a state-
ment from her I will ask Mr. Baker, the examiner in probate matters, to take
her deposition without the presence of anyone who has had anything to do
with her case, or with this office.
In giving my testimony concerning John A. Fugate, I find that I have done
him some injustices, as I confused him with another young man, now in the
State of Washington, who was given a considerable sum of back annuity money,
not trust funds. Mv. Fugate and his mother have been in the office and were
questioned concerning the disposition of his trust funds. Both consider that
the business experience gained in having the unrestricted use of the money was
most beneficial. He is now about 25 years of age, of one-sixteenth Osage blood,
of fair education, good habits, has a white wife and a baby. His trust funds
were expended as follows:
For house on surplus lands $500. 00
Another house (the first one having blown down) 1, 000.00
Cattle, horses, and buying back lease on lands 1, 200. 00
Farming implements, feed, and fences 500.00
Team pi-eviously bought 250.00
JNot accounted for 369. 76
3,819.76
He traded a team with colts, wagon, and harness, and a lease on his home-
stead for an automobile. The machine was old and was used up in four months,
so, without consulting the former owner and lessee, he took possession of the
homestead and has it now. He has 5 horses, two milch cows, 2 hogs, and
owes $500 on a team. He has two teams at work in the oil fields from which
he earns, net. $100 a month. Farming has not been profitable in Oklahoma
for the past four years. I consider that the boy has made a fair showing,
without counting the benefit gained from his experience.
I have inquired into the case of Mary Mudd, a full blood about 60 years of
age, and find that she has received through this office since March 1, 1913,
$2,414.86 ($180 from rentals and $2,234.86 from interest on tribal fund and oil
and gas royalties), and .all paid direct to her as required by the law. Also,
she has received money from leases made outside the office. She has no one
but herself to support, has lived with her daughter, and for several months
has lived with her son at Avant, Okla. Both she and her son stated in the
office yesterday that she had plenty of food and clothing, a comfortable place
to live, and that the only thing that she has to complain about is rheumatism,
find that she had enough money and is going to Claremore hot springs for treat-
ment. She appears to be well nourished, and was comfortably and neatly clad.
It is possible that the rumors of suffering and lack of money were put into
circulation by persons who have tried to induce her to sell her inherited land.
The ottice board some months ago that some person had told her that it had to
be sold through the county court in a suit for partition. Mary is the sole heir
of her daughter, and she has been warned about signing any deeds, or deeds
disguised as leases. She can not speak English, but her son has a fair
(x3ucation.
In thinking over my testimony I find that I expressed myself rather too
strongly with regard to usury, referring to it as a crime, whereas, under the
OSAGE KESERYATIOX. 14*21
statutes of Oklahoma (Harris-Day Code I the peualty is forfeiture of twice the
amount of the usurious interest only. Laymen are prone unlhiuliin^ly to
characterize any violari<in of law as a crime. In cases of usury the remedy is,
of course, an action by the Indian in the State courts; but. the Indians, with
reason, h;ive lirtle faith in their being able to win in a suit a.itaiust ii white
man who can iiroduce their notes as evidence against their oral statements.
I would like to bring to your :;rteiition something which occurred a day or
two after I apiieared before your committee. Mr. Keating asked me whether
I had talked with anyone concerning my testimony, and I told him that I had
spoken to no one but the commissioner and assistant commissioner, and then
only to say that I had tried to give full and frank answers to all interroga-
tories. The reason Mr. Keating gave for asking the question was that some of
the testimony had already leaked out and he could not locate the source. I
found when I reached Pawhuska that many of my st:itements. greatly exag-
gerated, had been in circulation here for several days. As the only persons
present other than the members of the commission and myself were the secre-
tary of the commission and the othciitl stenographer and Mr. Sloan, it should
not be very ditScult to locate the leak.
After testifying I talked with the commissioner about a number of matters
in connection with Osage affairs, and I was glad to find that the commissioner
was now making of broader scope contracts with tribal attorneys, and instead
of contracts requiring attorneys to represent Indians in tribal affairs only, that \/
attorneys are to be required in future to assist in the work of the office in
tribal or individual matters, to give friendly legal advice to Indians, and to
assist the office in carrying out the provisions of section 3 of the act of April 18,
1912. This was the point that I tried to bring (tut in my testimony with refer-
ence to the existing contract with the present tribal attorney. Assuming that
the letter of the contract has been carried out, I am of the opinion that the
new contract as proposed by the commissioner will secure to the Indians, as a
nation and individually, a service more commensurate with the compensation
that is being paid.
Developments in connection with probate matters by the special examiner
who was sent here, as well as a recent opinion by the Assistant Attorney Gen-
eral for the Interior Department, strengthen my conviction that the act of
April IS. 1012. was a most unfortunate piece of legislation. Under depart-
mental interpretation of the act. the Government can not protect the rights of
many incompetent Indians. When an Osage Indian who has a certificate of
competency dies, the only property that remains under control of the Govern-
ment is his trust funds and oil and gas royalties, and there is nothing that the
Government can do to protect the interests of his children in respect to real
property. If he has not a certificate of competency, the restrictions follow as
to tribal Indians who have no certificates of competency. The cost of pro-
bating and partitioning an Osage estate is. on an average, about 15 per cent
of the value of the land. In a recent case the cost was over $500 to divide
bout 1.30<) acres between three equal heirs, who made their own selections and
agreed upon them, and the same division could have been made out of court
under section 0 of the act of April 18. 1912. without any cost. There is no
doubt that Indians are frequently advised by interested persons that their
cases must be taken into the courts: and as attorneys take advantage of the
fact that the act does not specifically require copies of papers filed in the
district court to be served on the superintendent, as is the case with papers
filed in the county court, action is taken in the district court without my
knowledge, except in a few instances, and it is then too late to aid the ward of
the Government in the matter of fees.
If there is anything more that you. would like to know about the above cases
or any other I will be glad to inform you further. I desire to work in full
harmony with your commission, and it is my pleasure as well as my duty to
assist in procuring and reporting all material facts in connection with com-
plaints concerning Osage matters, irrespective of the character of the persons
making them or their motives.
I am willing that this letter should be made a part of the record.
Very truly, yours,
Samuel Carroll. Superintendent.
Hon. Joe T. Robinson,
Chuirmun Joint Commission of Congress
to Investigate Indian Affairs.
35G01— PT 12—1-1 3
1422 OSAGE RESERVATION. *
Rose Bacon Rind {full-Uood Osage).
Warraut for trust funds deposited in bank May 28, 1913 $1, 941. 28
Interest accrued while on deposit 2. 82
1, 944. 10
Checlved out from June 23 to Aug. 28. 1913, as follows :
Briglit Roddy (merchandise) $46.25
Osage Mercantile Co. (merchandise) 107.00
Citizens National Bank, Pawhuska 900.00
Do 260.00
Andrews & Co. (hardware) 37.80
Self 60.00
Do 60.00
Do . 90. 00
F. T. Williamson (horse) 150.00
Self 60.00
F. T. Williamson 10.90
F. S. Kelly (furniture) 130.00
Pawhuska Furniture Co. (furniture) 30.00
Self 2.15
1, 944. 10
The trust funds were withdrawn for the purpose of paying debts and au-
thority given by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs to make such disburse-
ments and also, at her request, to pay a monthly allowance out of the balance.
Paul Albert {full-hlood Osage).
Warraut for trust funds deposited in bank June 4, 1913 $1,922.96
Interest accrued while on deposit 2. 63
1, 925. 59
Checked out from July 29, 1913, to December 1. 1913. as follows:
Self - $50.00
Bright Roddy (merchandise) 91.10
Self 50.00
Do 10.00
Self (paid to Mrs. Ann M. McG. La Motte) 207.22
Self 15.00
Osage Mercantile Co. (merchandise) 51.45
V. M. Crews (on house) 600.00
Self 20.00
Do • 60. 00
Do 60.00
Do 60.00
Do 49.07
Citizens' National Bank, Pawhuska, $601.75, made into cash-
ier's checks and paid as follows:
Bird and Brenner (27 small notes for money borrowed
from Jime 6, 1913, to July 29, 1913) $315.50
American National Bank. Powhuska, note 75.00
Osago Mercantile Co. (merchandise) 12.00
Hugh S. Jarvis (insurance) 17.65
Hominy Trading Co 181.50
1, 323. 84
601. 75
1. 925. 59
Appliciition was iiKule and claim allowed for the imrpose of paying debts, im-
proving property in Indian village, and the balance to be paid as necessity
might refpiire. and authority was granted by the Conmiissioner of Indian Affairs
to make the expenditures.
OSAGE BESEEVATION. 1423
John a)i<l }Ianj McFall ifuU-blood Osages).
John :McFiill :
Trust funds deposited Sept. 10. 1913 $3,889.88
Interest accrue<^l in baulc 4.61
3, 894. 49
Checked out from September !l. 1913, to February 2. 1914, as follows:
Bertie B. Maher (one-half purchase price of 160 acres of land, with
house and other improvements) $3,500.00
Wagon and harness 200.00
Self SO. 00
Self (furniture) 88. 50
Self 25.99
3, 894. 49
Mary :\IeFalI :
Trust funds depositcl Sept. 10, 1913 3,889.88
Interest accrued in bank 4.46
3, 894. 34
Checked out from September 10. 1913 to January 19, 1914, as follows:
Bertie B. Maher (one-half purchase price of 160 acres of land, with
house and other improvements) $3,500.00
Self (hogs, chickens, and turKeys) 290.50
Self (feed) 50.00
Self 53.84
3, 894. 34
Aitplication was mnde and claim allowfd for the purpose of purchasing the old
home of Mary McFall, where she lived as a child. The appraised value was
$7,000. The deed was made to them jointly, with restrictions on alienation
without the approval of the Secretary of the Interior until 1931, and the deed is
recorded in the office of the legister of deeds. Osage County. All the above
expenditures were mnde under authority given bv the Commissioner of Indian
Affairs.
George A. Tayrien (one thirty-second blood Osage).
Trust funds deposited Feb. 27. 1913 $3,880.40
Checks to his order on same day as follows:
For purchase price of $209.75 acres of land for unallotted minor child,
with restrictions on alienation during minority without the ap-
proval of the Secretary of the Interior 2, 000. 00
To recover land leased for four vears, rentals paid in advance, $1,000;
and $880.40 for unrestricted use 1,880.40
3, 880. 40
Balance of 5 cents paid on check Aug. 13. 1913 .05
3, 880. 45
Application was made and claim allowed for the purposes above specified and
disbursements were made under authority given by the Commissioner of Indian
Affairs.
John A. Fugatc (one-sixteenth blood Osage).
Attached is a copy of a report prepared by Vernon Whiting, competency com-
missioner, for the superintendent's signature, to accompany the application of
John A. Fugate for trust funds.
The amount of the warrant was $3,819.72 and was paid to him without re-
strictions, as recommended, with the approval of tho Commissioner of Indian
Afifairs and the Secretary of tlie Interior.
1424 OSAGE RESERVATION.
SUPFRINTENnENT'S REPORT ON APPLICATION FOR OSAGE FUNDS.
Name, John A. P\]gate; age, 21 years.
Allotment No. 1142. Approved roll No. 1229. (Current roll No. 2392.) De-
gree of Indian blood, one-sixteenth.
Inherited interests (name of allottee, number of allotments, and proportion) :
No inherited estate.
1. Has applic.-sut any money in the Treasury from sale of inherited land? (If
so, how much and what land?) No.
2. Average jumual income, including rentals? About $600 a year.
3. What money is applied for? Individual Osage trust fund, $3,819.76.
4. Do you know applicant personally? Yes.
5. Does applicant speak and understand English? Yes.
6. Is he living in an Indian or a white community? White.
7. Has applicant a good character and reputation? Yes.
8. Does applicant use intoxicants; and if so, to what extent? No.
9. Is applicant in debt? (If so. to what extent and for what purpose was
debt incurred?) About $800. for money used in building a house and for living
expenses.
10. Number in fannly (spouse and minor children). Self and wife (white) ;
no children.
11. If applicant is separated from family, with whom are minor children, and
who supports them? (Give particulars.) Applicant lives with his wife and
supports her.
12. Has applicant a certificate of competency? (If so, give date.) No.
13. Have minor children's moneys and lands been properly expended and
managed? (Give particulars.) No minor allotted children.
14. To what extent, if any, is applicant physically or mentally disabled? Ap-
plicant and his wife are in good health.
15. If the applicant is a minor of school age, is he in school? (What school?
If not, why?)
16. Do you believe the applicant can and will properly handle the amount
applied foi', or any part thereof? (How much, if any?) Yes.
17. Do you consider it to the best interest and welfare of the applicant to pay
all or a part of the sum applied for? (Why?) $3,819.76, that applicant may
pay his indebtedness and improve his lands, and also to use $300 of it to procure
possession of his homestead, which is leased for this and next year, the rent
being paid in advance.
18. How much do you recommend be paid? All, $3,819.76.
19. Do you recommend that any or all, if paid, be deposited and handled
under your supervision? None,
20. If application is made by a guardian, state whether you consider him a
competent and reliable person, who will manage the monev to the best interest
of his ward? (Why?)
21. If not, have you made any protest or complaint to the court?
22. Are you personally acquainted with the guardian? (If not, on what do
you base your statement?)
23. If the applicant is a white person, state whether he has an Indian wife
or any Indian children. And if so, who are they and what property have they?
Applicant is a one-sixth Osage married to a white woman,
24. Is he living with and supporting his Indian family?
25. If he has an Indian family, is he of good character and reputation, and
competent? •
26. What do you recommend as to payment? $3,819.76 to be paid to applicant
direct.
I hereby certify that the following statement was made orally' by the appli-
cant to Vernon Whiting, competency commissioner, and I believe applicant to
be worthy of belief.
Applicant states that he has not promised or agreed, orally or in writing, to
pay anyone for services in connection with this claim, and that he has not been
induced by anyone to make this apidication.
I also certify to the truth of my above report on the application.
Superintendent and Special Disbursing Agent.
OSAGE RESERVATIOISr.
1425
Retnark.s. — Applicant is just past 21 j-ears of age. one-slxteeutli Osage, lias a
good education, is strong and healthy, and has the qualification to properly
manage his own business. He is sober and industrious. He has resources out-
side of his Osage estate and surplus land, consisting of household goods, team of
horses, two cows, and some farming machinery, all of which is clear of incum-
brance. He is in debt about $800, which money was used in building upon his
homestead.
Applicant states that he wishes possession of his homestead, which is leased
for two years in advance, move thereon with his wife, and farm the land. His
Indian blood is hardly noticeable, and he is virtually a white man.
Osage Indian Agency.
Pavhuskn. Okla., February 26. ]9lJf.
James A. Carroll.
Siii)cri)itcn(lcut Osage Indian Agency.
Dear Sir: Following is the .synopsis showing the extent of acreage contained
iu the Foster lease, amount developed, amount undeveloped, total number of
drv holes, oil wells, and gas wells, according to schedules:
Lessee.
Total
acreage.
Acreage
de-
veloped.
Acreage
unde-
veloped.
Development.
Dry.
Oil.
Gas.
Schedule No. 1.
142, 950
102, 101
40, 849
352
865
57
SCHEDVLE No. 2.
(More than 5,000 and less than 10,000 acres.)
Belmont Oil Co
8,960
8,320
5,880
9,340
9,020
5,280
5,760
320
5,880
4,420
.4,400
5,280
3,200
8,000
3
1
12
24
17
23
20
4
Imperial Osage Development Co
Matson Oil Co ...
HI
65
84
122
Manhattan Oil Co
5,120
4,620
Roth-Argue, Maire Bros
Wolverine Oil Co
g
Schedule No. 3.
(More than 10,000 and le^s than 20,000 acres.)
Boston-Osage Oil Co .
10,160
10.750
7,500
2,550
2,560
8,200
12
3
17
4
Midland Oil Co
Schedule No. 4.
(More than 20,000 and less than 40,000 acres.)
Prairie Oil & Gas Co. and associates
32,620
22,160
27,520
23,180
10,400
1,280
9,440
11,760
26, 240
47
23
3
245
46
10
Steyner Oil Co
4
San Francisco-Osage Co
Schedule No. 5.
(More than 40,000 and less than 50,000 acres. )
Indiana Territors'-Illinois Oil Co
46,800
19,030
29,570
50
53
7
Schedule No. 6.
(More than 50,000 acres.)
Barnsdall Oil Co. and associates
334,757
132,270
202,487
269
695
51
Total
676,317
324,271
352,046
839
2,323
145
Wells drilled by Indian Territory Illuminating Oil Co.
on these properties
17
13
77
Very respectfully,
J. F. York, Oil Inspector.
1426
OSAGE KESERVATION.
Schedule sJioicing number of subdivision, tract, description, lessee, development,
and production up to Jan. 31, 191/f, tinder nil and gas mining leases approved
under regulations of July 3, 1912.
[Asterisk indicates the several tracts that were leased under the letting of Nov. 11, 1912. Remainde ^
was leased under administration of Commissioner Sells.)
Sub-
Description.
Lessee.
Development.
Production.
divi-
sion
No.
o
1
a
O
o
Remarks.
*4
Tract No. 4.
Sees. 27, 28, 33, 34,
T. 24, K.9.
Sees. 29, 30, 31, T. 24,
R. 9.
Sees. 5, 7, 8, 9, T. 23,
R. 9.
Sec. 11, T. 22, R. 9
Continental Oil &
Refining Co. and
Prairie Oil & Gas
Co.
do
1
Barrels.
*5
1
*6
do
1
Small.
*11
do
1
1
1
1
*18
Sec. 29, T. 22, R. 9
do
*22
Sec. 34, T. 21, R.9....
Sec. 20, T.22, R. 10...
Sec. 21, T. 22, R. 10 ..
Steel, Elliott, Bisset
& McClintock.
Continental Oil &
Refining Co. and
Prairie Oil & Gas
Co.
do
*24
*25
1
2
3,643.41
2,798.20
6 months.
*26
S.isec.22,T.22,R.10.
N.Jsec.22,T.22,R.10.
E. J see. 14, T. 22, R.
10.
W. J sec. 14, T. 22, R. 10
Sec. 16, T. 22, R. 10...
Sec. 11, T. 22, R. 10...
Sec. 33, T. 23, R. 10...
Tract No. 5.
Lot 1, sec. 6, T. 21,
R. 8.
Lot 2, sec. 6, T. 21,
R.8.
Lot 3, sec. 6, T. 21,
R.8.
Lot 4, sec. 6, T. 21,
■p c
Lot 5, sec. 6, T. 21,
R.8.
Lot 6, sec. 6, T. 21,
R 8
Lot"7,' sec. 6, T. 21,
■p Q
E. i'of NE.iofsec. 2,
t. 21, R. 7.
Sees. 1, 2, 3, 4, and
fractional sees. 9, 10,
11, 12, T.22, R. 7.
NW. i sec. 2, T. 21,
R.7.
NE. J sec. 3, T. 21,
R.7.
NW. i sec. 3, T. 21,
. R.7.
NE. J sec. 4, T. 21,
R.7.
NW. i sec. 4, T. 21,
R.7.
Lots 1 and 10, sec. 5,
T.21, R. 7.
Sfics 4..';.fi. 7. 8. 9and
do
7 months.
*27
... do
*28
West Virginia Osage
Oil Co.
Southwest Oil Co. &
Steel.
Continental Oil &
Refining Co. and
Prairie Oil & Gas
Co.
Southwest 0 il Co. &
Steel.
Continental Oil &
Refining Co. and
Prairie Oil & Gas
Co.
Gypsy Oil Co
2
2
3,993.63
483.28
5 months.
*29
3 months.
*30
*31
1
*32
1
0
do
1
1
3
... do
3
1
1
1
1
78,057.65
2 months.
4
do
5
... do
1
6
Twin State OilCo ..
Gypsy Oil Co
Prairie Oil & Gas Co
7
8
*10
Keystone Oil & Gas
Co. and Prairie
Oil & Gas Co.
Savov Oil Co
1
11
12
M. A. Brast
1
Rig on groimd.
13
Summit Oil & Gas
Co.
do
14
15
Finance Oil Co. &
Markham, jr.
M. A. Brast
16
*17
Kennedy, Springer,
and White, and
Sinchir.
4
6,823.70
4 months' nm;
N. i sees. 16, 17, 18,
1 T. 23, R.8.
1 combination
well.
OSAGE RESERVATION.
Schedule shoiclng number of sicbdivision, etc. — Continued.
1427
Sub-
Description.
Lessee.
Development.
Production.
divi-
sion
No.
O
be
p
5
§
1
3
Remarks.
18
Teact No. 5— Con.
E.iSE.Jsec.2, T.21, ' Prairie Oil & Gas
R.7. Co.
SW. i sec. 2, T. 21, Laurel Oil & Gas
R.7. Co.
SE. i sec. 3, T. 21, Finance Oil Co. &
R.7 Markham, jr.
SW. i sec. 3 T 21 Summit Oil A- Gas
1
Barrels.
Rig on ground.
20
1
21
22
23
R.7.
SE. i sec. 4, T. 21,
R.7.
SW. i sec. 4, T. 21,
R.7.
Lots 8 and 9 sec. 5,
T.21, R.7.
NW. i sec. 9, T. 21,
R.7.
Sec. .30, T 22 R S
Co.
M A Brast
24
Summit Oil & Gas
Co.
. do .. .
1
25
27
do
*28
Prairie O A- G Pn •
1
*29
1 Shulthis & South-
; west Oil Co.
Sec. 31, T. 22 R S Minnphomn. Oil On
12
123,587.80
7 months.
30
NE. i sec. 9, T. 21,
R.7.
NW. i sec. 10, T. 21,
R.7.
NE. J sec. 10, T. 21,
R.7.
NW. i sec. 11, T. 21,
R. 7.
W. i NE. 1 sec. 11,
T. 21, R. 7.
E. JNE. Jsec. 11, T.
21, R. 7.
NW. JNW. J sec. 12,
T. 21, R. 7.
NE. J NW. 1 sec. 12,
T. 21, R. 7.
Lot 6, sec. 12, T. 21,
R.7.
W. iSE. J see. 11, T.
21, R. 7.
SW. i see. 11, T. 21,
R. 7.
SE. J sec. 10, T. 21,
Gyp'^v Oil Co
31
do .
1
32
Summit Oil & Gas
Co.
J. W Stroud
33
1
34
Savoy Oil Co .
1
35
Prairie Oil & Gas
Co.
Gvpsv Oil Co
36
1
1
,
Rig on ground.
37
do
■■
Do.
38
do
48
do
49
C. C. Nelson
1
Do.
50
M. A. Brast
51
R. 7.
SW. J sec. 10, T. 21,
R.7.
SE. J sec. 9, T.21, R.
Lots 3 and 4 and NE.
i SW. i sec. 9, T.
21, R. 7.
G3rpsy Oil Co
1
1
52
do
.53
Summit Oil & Gas
Co.
M. A. Brast
54
i T. 21, R.7.
55 ' T,nts I and 9 spp I.t
Summit Oil & Gas
Co.
J. S Cosden
56
T. 21, R. 7.
N. J NE. i and lots 3
and 4, sec. 15, T. 21,
R.7.
N JNW J and lots 1
1
1
57
61
and 2, sec. 14, T. 21, Markham, jr.
R.7.
NE J NE i see ''5 ' \lnnitnr Oil A- fiac
1
i 1
62
T. 22, R. 7. '
NW. J NE. } sec. 25,
T. 22, R. 7.
SE. i NE. i sec. .36,
T. 22, R. 7.
SW. i NE. J sec. 36,
T. 22, R. 7.
NE. i SE. i sec. 36,
T. 22, R. 7.
NW. J SE. J sec. 36,
T. 22, R. 7.
SE J SE J sec 36
Co.
71
Roxana Petroleum
Co.
Minnehoma Oil Co
1
72
73
Prairie Oil &. Gas
Co.
do
1
1
74
75
fin
8
3
76
T. 22, R. 7.
SW. i SE. J sec. .36, do
T. 22, R. 7. 1
1
16,715.10
2 months.
1428 OSAGE RESERVATION.
Schedule showing number of subdirision, etc. — Continued.
Sub-
Description.
Le,ssee.
Development.
Production.
Remarks.
divi-
sion
No.
O
i
fcn'
a
1
77
Tract No. 5— Con.
E. J NW. J sec. 25,
T. 22, R. 7.
W. i NW. i sec. 25,
T. 22, R. 7.
E. i dw. i sec. 25,
T. 22, R. 7.
N. i NW. i sec. 36,
T. 22, R.7.
S. i NW. i sec. 33,
T. 22, R. 7.
NE. i SW. 1 sec. 36,
T. 22, R. 7.
NW. i SW. i sec. 36,
T. 22, R. 7.
SE. J SW. 1 sec. 36,
T. 22, R. 7.
SW. i SW. 1 sec. 36,
T. 22, R. 7.
NE. 1 sec. 26, T. 22.
R. 7.
SE. iNW. i and lots
1 and 2, see. 26, T.
22, R. 7.
SW. 1 sec. 26, T. 22
R. 7.
S. i SE. 1 and lots 7
and 8, see. 27, T.
22, R. 7.
Lots 5 and 6, sec. 27,
and lot 5, sec. 28,
T. 22, R. 7.
NW. i sec. 34, T. 22,
R. 7.
NE. i sec. .34, T. 22
R. 7.
NW. 1 sec. 35, T. 22
R. 7.
NE. 1 see. 35, T. 22,
R. 7.
SF\ J sec. 35, T. 22,
R. 7.
SW. J sec. .35, T. 22,
R. 7.
SE. i .sec. 34, T. 22,
R. 7.
SW. J sec. 34, T. 22,
R. 7.
SE. i sec. .33, T. 22,
R. 7.
SE.ofSW. and lots 4
and 5, sec. 33, T. 22,
R.7.
NE. i sec. 19, T. 22,
R. 8.
NW. } sec. 2S, T. 22,
R.S.
NE. J sec. :n, T. 22,
R.S.
NW. J sec. 27, T. 22,
NE." j',see. ^7, T. 22,
R. S.
SE. i sec. i7, T. 22,
R. 8.
SW. 1 sec. 17, T. 22,
R. N.
SE. J sec. 2H, T. 22,
R.S.
SW. } sec. 2S, T. 22,
R.S.
SE. J sec. 29, T. 22,
R.S.
SW. i sec. i:9, T. 22,
R.S.
1
1
1
Barrels.
Rig up.
Do.
Do.
Do.
In T!art'ps\
sand, show
oil.
iiigup.
78
Roxana Petroleum
Co.
. . .do
79
81
Lawrence Gas Co.
and Iron Moun-
tain Oil Co.
Prairie Oil & Gas
Co.
do
1
1
1
82
1
83
84
do
85
do
1
1
86
do
87
Gypsv Oil Co
1
89
M. A. Brast .
1
1
90
Prairie Oil & Gas
Co.
Gypsv Oil Co
91
1
92
do
1
94
do...
1
95
Gypsr Oil Co
1
96
Finance Oil Co. &
Markham, jr.
Prairie Oil & (iasCo.
Twin State Oil Co...
Summit Oil Co
1
1
1
1
1
97
98
99
100
Finance Oil Co. &
Maricham, jr.
Summit Oil oL Gas
Co.
1 inance Oil Co. &
Markham, jr.
M. A. Erast
101
102
103
105
Carter Oil Co ....
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
106
107
108
Monitor Oil & Gas
Co.
W. S. Mowris
J. W. Stroud
Gypsy Oil Co
Summit Oil & Gas
Co.
....do
Gypsy Oil Co
.do
1
"■
109
110
111
112
Up
of
113
1
114
115
Leschen & Roeser. . .
Kanawha Oil Co
OSAGE RESERVATION. 1429
Schedule showing niniihcr of siibdiiision. etc. — Continued.
Sub-
•
Description.
Lessee.
Development .
Production.
divi-
sion
No.
O
o
>>
Q
&J3
Q
i
2
Remarks.
lis
119
120
Tract No. 5— Con.
NE. J sec. 33, T. 22,
NW. j sec. 34, T. 22,
R. 8.
NE. i sec. 34, T. 22,
R. 8.
SE. i sec. 34, T. 22,
R. 8.
SW. i sec. 34, T. 22,
R. 8.
SE. i sec. 33, T. 22,
R. 8.
Total
Finance Oil Co. &
Mark ham, jr.
M. A. Hrast
do
Barrels.
121
Summit Oil & Gas
Co.
Finance Oil Co. &
Markham, jr.
Summit Oil & Gas
Co.
122
123
Show of oil, Lav-
ton sand.
40
7
35
33
18
Note.
Prairie Oil & Gas Co.'s production in sec. 36, T. 22, R. 7, 105 barrels per day.
Minnehoma Oil Co., sec. 31, T. 22, R. 8, 125 barrels per day.
Twin State Oil Co., lot 6 of see. 6, T. 21, R. 8, 85 barrels per day.
Gypsy Oil Co., lots 2, 3, 4, 5, and 7 of sec. 6, T. 21, R. 8, 1,200 barrels per day.
West Vinxinia Osa^e Oil it Gas Co., E. J sec. 14, T. 22, R. 10, 21 barrels per day.
Continental Oil it Refining Co., sec. 21, T. 22, R. 10, 18 barrels per day.
Continental Oil & Refining Co., sec. 22, T. 22, R. 10, 11 barrels per day.
Kennedy, Springer, White & Sinclair, sec. 8, T. 23, R. 8, 34 barrels per day.
September S. 1913.
Hou. Joe T. Robinson.
Chainnun Joint Contmission to Investigate IniJinn- A'ffairs,
United States Senate.
My Dear Senator : I have received your letter of the 4th instant, inclosing
a letter from Mr. W. C. Plumb, repi-esentiug the Uncle Sam Oil Co., relative
to the disapproved oil and gas mining leases of that company, covering Osage
lands.
I note Mr. I'lumb's reference to the leasing of lands for oil and gas mining
purposes recently authorized l>y the department, his protest on behalf of his
company, and tlie request that the .loint committee investigate this contem-
plated lea.sing on the ground that it is an injustice to the Uncle Sam Oil Co.
Before answering his assigned reasons, and in view of your request for
information and suggestions, I deem it advisable to set forth in some detail
pertinent facts as they are disclosed by the records in this office.
By section .3 of the act of Congress approved February IS, 1891 (26 Stat. L.,
794), as amended by the act of August in, 1894 (128 Stat. U., 305), Congress
authorized leasing of Indian lands for oil and gas mining i)urposes, and accoi'd-
ingly. in 1890. the entire Osage Iteservation was leased to Edwin B. Foster for
1(» years at a one-tenth royalty on oil and .$50 per well on gas.
That lease was taken ov«r by the Indian Territory Illuminating Oil Co.
By act of March 3. 19(»5 CS'.j Stat. L., lOGl). Congress renewed the lease in
the name of that company for 080.000 acres for anotlier perio<l of 10 years,
increasim:, however, the royalty on oil to 12-i per cent, and gas at $100 per well.
Section 3 of the act of June 2S, 1906 (34 Stat. I.., 5.39), provided:
"Tliat the oil, gas, coal, or other minerals covered by the lands for the selec-
tion and division of which provisiim is herein made are hereby reserved to the
Osage Trilie for a period of fwenty-tive years from atid after the eighth tlay of
April, nineteen hundred ami six; and le;ises for all oil, gas, and other minerals,
covered by selections and division of land herein provided for, may be made
by the Osage Tribe of Indians through its tribal council and with the approval
of the Secretary of the Interior and under such rules and regulations as he may
prescribe: Provided. That the royalties to be i>aid to the Osage Tribe under
any mineral lease .so made shall be determined by the President of the United
States: And itvovided further. That no mining of or prospecting for any of
1430 OSAGE KESERVATION.
said mineral or minerals shall be permitted on the homestead selections herein
provided for without the written consent of the Secretary of the Interior : Pro-
vided, however, That nothing herein contained shal be construed as affecting
any valid existing lease or contract."
Four proposed leases in favor of the Uncle Sam Oil Co., WesFey M. Dial,
Henry J. O'Connell, and John L. Bird, covering the entire unleased portion of
the Osage mineral lands, were, after a hearing before the department on Feb-
ruary 20. 1912. returned disajiproved, for two main reasons:
First, lack of opportunity for competitive bidding; and
Second, the inclusion of the so-called " written-consent " clause therein.
These lease.^. in somewhat amended form, were again and finally disapproved
by First Assistant Secretary Adams on June 14, 1912. Copy of his letter, ad-
dressed to Principal Chief Brown, which sets out fully the basis for depart-
mental action, is herewith.
You will observe that these leases were presented prior to the promulgation
of regulations authorized by section 3 of the act of June 28. 1906, supra. Such
regulations were approved by the department on July 3, 19j2, covered the objec-
tions raised regarding the then proposed leases and the Foster lease as well.
These regulations were subsequently amended on January 9, 1913, and August
25, 1913. Copies of the regulations and amendments are inclosed.
Section 9 of the act of June 28, 1906, supra, provides :
" That there shall be .a bieiniial election of officers for the Osage Tribe as
follows: A principal chief, an assistant principal chief, and eight members of
the Osage tribal council to succeed the officers elected in the year nineteen hun-
dred and six. said officers to be elected at a general election to be held in the
town of Pawhuska, Oklahoma Territory, on the first Monday in June; and the
first election for said officers shall be held on the first Monday in June, nine-
teen hundred and eight, in the maner to be prescribed by the Commissioner of
Indian Affairs, and said officers shall be elected for a period of two years, com-
mencing on the first day of July following said election, and in case of a
vacancy in the office of principal chief, by death, resignation, or otherwise, the
assistant principal chief shall succeed to said office, and all vacancies in the
Osage tribal council shall be filled in a manner to be prescribed by the Osage
tribal coimcil, and the Secretary of the Interior is hereby authorized to i*emove
from the council any member or members thereof for good cause, to be by him
determined."
The terms of the members of the council elected in 1910 expired July 1, 1912
An election for a new council was held on June 3, 1912, and on June 17, 1912,
the election of Bacon Rind as principal chief, Heni-y Red Eagle, assistant prin-
cipal chief, and Thomas West, councilman, was disapproved for cause and their
places vacated by the Secretary of the Interior, and Chief Brown was requested
to call another meeting to elect their successors prior to July 1. This, however,
he failed to do.
These persons protested against their removal, and on July 17, 1913, the Secre-
tary affirmed his i)revious action, and directed the remaining members of the
council to provide a method for filling the vacancies caused by removal, and
specifically directed attention to the fact that important business, including the
leasing of lands, would have to be considered. This request was not complied
with.
On January 3, 1913, Secretary Fisher removed the other members of the
council, on the ground that each member thereof had proven recreant to duty
owed to the tribe. I have attached a copy of the order of removal. The
action of the Secretary in removing these men has since been sustained by
the Courts of the District of Columbia.
The actions of the council and the conditions of granting these leases were
snch that the department ordered a special investigation of the entire matter.
The special agent's report was of such a character that the department trans-
mitted it (o the Department of Justice with the request that such action be
takeji as might be considered appropriate.
The following jiersons, including members of the tribe and parties interested
In the procurenicnt of the four leases, have since been indicted in the District
Court for the Western District of Oklahoma, for consiMracy in connection with
these leasing matters, including W. C. Plumb, to whose letter addressed to you,
this letter is in reply :
H. H. Tucker, A. L. Wilson. T. J. Lehay. William Lehay, Wesley M. Dial,
E. V. Scott. John Palmer. A. W. Comstock. Ed Brown, Bacon Rind, William
Plumb.
I
OSAGE RESERVATION. 1431
Trial of Mr. Pluiub and other representatives of tlie Uncle Sam Oil Co., under
charges of criminal conspiracy, is now pending.
Referring again to the matters of these leases, on August 5. 1912. President
Taft sustainted the action of the Secretary of the Interior. On December 12,
1912, he affirmed his previous action and wired the Osage National Council as
follows:
" I entirely agree with the Secretary of the Interior in refusing to approve
oil leases to the Uncle Sam Oil Co., Dial, O'Connell, and Bird submitted last
June. These leases were definitely disapproved.
William H. Taft."
On September 17, 1912, the department authoried the advertising for lease
of approximately 105,000 acres of these same lands. Bids were received for
about 42,000 acres, all on a 16§ per cent royalty basis, and a minimum of 60
cents per barrel for oil. In addition thereto bidders offered bonuses of nearly
$142,000.
The council removed, as herein stated, passed resolutions refusing to execute
leases in accordance with these bids. This action was fallen even though a
petition, signed by a majority of the adult male members of the tribe — 273 out
of 481 — was presented to the council. The council elected in January, 1913.
accepted these bids, leases were executed by them, and the same have been
approved by the department.
The matter of further leasing these lands has been under consideration con-
tinuously since. Information recently received shows that one lessee drilled
three oil wells with a total natural flow of 1,400 barrels daily, and another
lessee two wells, with a flow of 925 barrels, immediately adjacent to portions
of the 12,000 acres of land which I have just caused to be advertiseil, thus
rapidly draining and reducing in value the lands now advertised and making
action in order to prevent great loss to the Indian imperative. The 12,000
acres advertised are within a radius of 4 miles of the production just referred
to, and it is therefore believed that the bids which will be received will contain
offers of substantial bonuses and that the leasing of the 12,000 acres advertised
at this time will result in popularizing future offerings on this reservation.
A copy of the order directing the advertising of these hnids for lease is in-,
closed. You will observe that the small producer is given a chance by offering
tracts of from 10 to 160 acres in area.
Mr. Plumb's letter is based on an erroneous promise. lie says, •' Congress, by
law, gave these Indians absolute and exclusive right to make leases for oil and
gas upon their lands."
A reference to section 3 of the act of June 28, 1906, supra, will convince you,
without further comment on my part, that leases to be effective require the
approval of the Secretary of the Interior, and that the Osage lands can not be
leased without his consent.
The siieciflc reasons for his request set forth l)y Mr. 1^1 umb will now be con-
sidered in order :
"1. Because the said leases made by the Osage Indians are wholly legal,
lawful, and entirely in the interest of the Osage Tribe, and their approval by
the Interior Department is urgently desired by a very large majority of the
members of the tribe."
The decision of the department of June 14, 1912, hereinbefore referred to, is
conclusive, and for reasons therein shown the leases were definitely disapproved,
are not pending before this department, and are entirely disposed of.
" 2. Because in the case now pending before the SuQreme Court these Indians
seek to protect their rights, and a bill is before Congress to validate these
leases in accordance with the wishes and interests of the Osage Tribe."
The title of the case referred to as pending before the Supreme Court is not
pending. It is presumed that he refers to the case of Brown v. Fisher, decided
by the Court of Appeals of the District of Columbia on June 2, 1913, and in
which a writ of error has since been denied. I am unable to see how the
present stjitus of this case could affect the matter.
The bill referred to as pending before Congress is presumably H. R. 5470,
Introduced May 20, 1913. A similar bill was introduced last Congress (H. R,
27726) and hearings were held before a subcommittee of the Committee on
Indian Affairs, which bill was never reported and died in the hands of the
committee.
" 3. Because Senate resolution No. 485, Sixty-second Congress, considered and
agreed to February 28, 1913, directed the Secretary of the Interior to tran.smi^
1432 OSAGE EESERVATION.
to the Senate the correspondence and protests relathig to leasing Osage gas and
oil lauds before concluding any more leases.
"4. Because the then Secretary of the Interior, disregarding this resolution,
leased lands to the GyiJsy Oil Co., a subsidiary of the Standard, before he went
out of office, which lands were under lease bv the Indians to the Uncle Sam
Oil Co."
The resolution I'eferred to reads :
"Resolved, That the Secretary of the Interior be directed to transmit to the
Senate the correspondence and protests relating to the proposed leasing of oil
and gas lands of the Osage Nation, together with the proposed rules and regu-
lations, before concluding the disposition of such lands by lease."
The records of the department show that the papers requested on February
28, 1913, were ti-ansmitted to the Senate on March 2, 1913, and returned on a
resolution of the Senate dated April 15, 1913. It is not true that the Secretary
executed a lease of the lands referred to to the Gypsy Oil Co.. as stated by
Mr. Plumb: on the contrary, the leases executed by the Osage Council to the
Gypsy Oil Co. were disapproved and the bids revoked by the Secretary of the
Interior.
" 7. And finally, because the present Secretary of the Interior on May 17,
1913, promised me that the Uncle Sam Oil Co. should have a full and fair
hearing of its leases before anything more was done in regard to leasing Osage
oil lands, which promise is not kept; and because the private secretary of Secre-
tary Lane promised in April, 1913. that the chief counsel for the Uncle Sam
Oil Co. should be notified in a " week or 10 days " of a time when he might
have a hearing with Secretary Lane upon the matter of the Uncle Sam Oil Co.
and Wesley M. Dial leases. The general council journeyed from Kansas City
to Washington in May, not having lieard anything, and remained here some
time without any chance for a hearing, but finding in meantime the Oil Trust
could have a two-day hearing before Mr. I^ane over renewal of the Oil Trust-
Foster lease two years hence."
The records of the office show no such promise, and you may be sure that no
such promise was made.
In this connection your attention is invited to the fact that Secretary Lane
expressly approved my action in offering the 12,000 acres in question for lease.
If there is any further information that we can give you, we will be glad to
do so.
Mr. I'lumb's letter is returned in accordance with your request.
Very truly, yours,
Cato Sells. Commissioner.
WASiiiNciTON. I). C. Hc/ifeiiihcr ;?. Ifll;!.
Hon. J. T. Robinson,
Senator.
My Dear Sir: I see by the public prints that Hon. Cato Sells. Connnissioner
of Indian Affairs, is advertising for bids for le;ises for gas and oil rights upon
certain lands of the Osage Indians for Osage County, Okla.
As these lands are the proi)erty of the Osage Indians and not \n any sense a
public domain: and as Congress by law g.nve these Indians absnlnU' and exclu-
sive right to make leases for oil and gas mion their lands: and as the lawfully
constituted chief and Tribal Council of the Osage Tribe after months of discus-
sion by the (ribal council, and by a specially ap]K)inted gas and oil committee
composed of members of the tribe, did perfect a lease of these lands and
executed it. whereby the Uncle Sam Oil Co. and Wesley M. Dial for valuable
consideration obtained leases of these lands from said Osage Tribal Council,
I wish to protest to you and to your honorable .loint comndttee of Congress
apliointed l)y Congress to invetigate Osage Indian affairs against the act of
the Connnissioner of Indian Affairs, as of great in.iustice and wrong to the
Uncle Sam Oil Oo. and Wesley M. Dial, and solely in the interest of the Oil
Tru.st. ('mailing possibly costly litigation upon the Uncle Sam Oil Co.
P.ecause the said h>ases ma<le by the Osage Indians ai'e wholly legal, lawful,
and entirely in the interest of the Osage Tribe, and tlieii- apiiroval by the
Interior Department is urgently desired by a very large nia.jority of the mem-
bers of the tribe.
Because the efforts of the former Secretary of the Interior Fisher, former
Assistant Secretary of the Interior Adams, and Acting Assistant Connnissioner
of Indian .\ffairs Abl)ott to prevent Covei'uineiU a.pproval of the Uncle Sam
OSAGE EESERVATION. 14S3
Oil Co. and tho Wesley M. Dial leases was the result of a conspiraey of said
Goveniineut ofticials with the Oil Trust.
Because attempts to l)ulldoze, bribe, browbeat, threaten with arrest, and
withhold from meu)bers of the tribe their quarterly allowance of nioiiey, by
Government otticials was lawless, and monstrous perversion of power exei'cised
to i)revent the Osage Indians from malcinj; leases of their lands which the act
of Congress authoi-ized them to do.
Because in a case now pendinjr before the Sui>reme Court these Indians seek
to protect their rights, and a bill is before Congress to validate these leases
in accordanc with the wishes and interests of the Osage Tribe.
Because Senate resolution No. As't. Sixty-second Congress, considered and
agreed to February 2S, inio. directed the Secretary of the Interior to transmit
to the Senate the correspondence and protests reliiting to leasing Osage gas
and oil lands before concluding any more leases.
Because the then Secretary of the Interior disregarding this resolution leased
lands to the Gypsy Oil Co., a subsidiary of the Standard, before he went out
of otHce, which lands were under lease by the Indians to the Uncle Sam Oil Co,
And tinally, because the present Secretary of the Interior on May 17, 1013,
promised me that the Uncle Sam Oil Co. should have a full and fair hearing
on its leases before anything more was done in regard to leasing Osage oil
lands, which promise is not kept; and because the private secretary of Secretary
Lane promised in April, lOlo. that the chief counsel for the Uncle Sam Oil Co,
should be notified in "a week or 10 days" of a time when he might have a
hearing with Secretary Lane upon the matter of the Uncle Sam Oil Co. and
Wesley yi. Dial leases. The general council journeyed from Kansas City to
Washington in May. not having heard anything, arid remained here some time
without any chance for a hearing, but finding in meantime the Oil Trust could
have a two-day heai'ing before Mr. Lane over renewal of the Oil Trust-Foster
lease two years hence.
Under these circumstances and for other reasons which will appear at the
hearing before your committee. I on the part of the Uncle Sam Oil Co., and
as one of the 12,000 stockholders, and as their Washington representative,
protest against the course of the Interior Department and the proposed actiou
of the Indian Commissioner.
Very truly, yours,
W. C. Pr.UMB.
Department of the Interior,
Office of Indian Affairs,
Washinfiton, Aiiyust 26, 1913.
The Secretary of the Interior.
Sir: The question of leasing additional lands on the Osage Reservation for
oil and gas mining purposes has been under consideration in the department
and the office for the past three or four months, but action thereon has been
withheld pemling the prescribing of proposed amendments to the regulations
of July .3, 1912, as amended January 9, 1913. Several conferences on the matter
were had with representatives of the Bureau of Mines, but no definite conclu-
sion has been reached.
Recent developments in sec. 31, T. 22 N., R. 8 E., and see. 1, T. 21 ^^, R. 7 E..
have resulted in the bringing in of several wells of good capacity. It is believed
that if some of these lands were now offered for lease large bonuses would he
received.
On July 15, 1913, the superintendent of the Osage Agency submitted a revised
statement of lands which he thought should be offered, but upon careful con-
sideration of the entire matter I have concluded that we should not off:er the
entire acreage suggested by him at this time, and also that the lands should
not be leased in subdivision of the size Indicated in his revised list and the
map which accompanied it.
I believe that the lands quite close to recent development should be offered
in tracts of 40 acres or less, so as to give the small producer an opportunity
to compete in the bidding. I have accordingly prepared a map and list of the
unleased lands in T. 21 N., Rs. 7 and 8 E., and in sec. 25, 2(5, 27, .33, .34,
35, and .36 of T. 22 N., R. 7 E., and sec. 27 to .34, inclusive, T. 22 N., R. 8 E..
subdivided into small tracts of from about 10 to 160 acres each. The lands
which are described in the list preiiarod by the office include 11,809.53 acres.
1434 OSAGE RESERVATION,
It is believed tliat the qnestioa of leasing the other lands may well be held
open until the return of the Director of the Bureau of Mines, who desires to
consider sf>me phases of the matter and to offer some suggestions as to pro-
posed amendments to regulations.
I therefore respectfully recommend that authority be granted for the superin-
tendent of the Osage Indian School to place advertisements to run for four
weeks in the following-named papers, the advertisement to be inserted every
other day in the daily and every issue in the weekly and semiweekly papers,
viz :
Osage Journal, Pawhuska, Okla.
Pawhuska Capital, Pawhuska, Okla.
Times-Democrat. Muskogee, Okla
Muskogee Phoenix, Muskogee, Okla.
Oil aud Gas Journal, Tulsa, Okla.
Tulsa Democrat, Tulsa, Okla.
Tulsa World, Tulsa, Okla.
Oil City Derrick, Oil City, Pa.
It is also recommended that the superintendent be authorized to have printed
a form of call for bids to be posted at such places as he may deem advisable
. and to be furnished to inquirers.
Respectfully,
Cato Sells, Commissioner.
Approved.
A. A. Jones,
First Assistant Secretary.
Department of the Interior,
Washington, June I4, 1912.
Mr. A. H. Brown,
Principal Chief Osage Nation, Pawhuska, Okla.
Sir : The four proposed leases in favor of the Uncle Sam Oil Co., Wesley M.
Dial, Henry J. O'Connell, and John L. Bird, covering the entire unleased por-
tion of the Osage mineral lands, submitted to the department by you, in accord-
ance with resolution No. 9 of the Osage Tribal Council, are returned herewith
disapproved.
At a hearing before me on February 20, 1912, at which you and a representa-
tive delegation of the Osage Nation were present, four similar proposed leases
in favor of the same parties were returned to you, after a full discussion ; and
the two main reasons given you at that time for the rejection of the leases were:
First, lack of opportunity for competitive bidding; and second, the inclusion of
the so-called " written-consent " clause in the pi-oposed leases.
While the amended leases as resubmitted by you differ in some particulars
from those first submitted, they do not in any way meet the two general objec-
tions upon which the first were returned. I can not believe that the Csage
National Council desires to dispose of the tribe's immense mineral wealth on
any other than the best possible terms. How can you, or how can the depart-
ment, charged as guardian of the Osage Nation, with the duty of making the
regulations for the disposition of this wealth, know that the best possible terms
are being offered when only one bidder is heard? How can you or this depart-
ment reasonably expect to be able to ascertain the best possible terms that may
be secured without first throwing wide open the gates to all bidders interested
in the purchase of oil and gas, under certain definite and specific terms made
known to all by first publishing widely the regulations which are to govern the
leasing V Hov^^ could your Council or how could this department escape the
charge of favoritism or neglect of duty should you or it fail first to make public
the terms upon which the leasing would be made, and make it known that
there is to be an open field and no favors, and that the highest and best bidder
is to receive the award? I repeat, therefore, that no lease, whatever its provi-
sions may be, will be approved by this department until after regulations are
promulgated and an opportunity given for competitive bidding.
With equal emphasis I repeat the decision vA'hich was announced by me at the
hearing of February 20. tluit I can not approve any leases containing the writ-
ten-consent clause. The law makes the Osage Nation the owner of the mineral
wealth in Osage County. To make that wealth available to the Osage Nation,
the right of ingress and egress to any part of the surface of this land is essen-
tial. Any lease provision ur legulation which denies this right violates a prop-
i
OSAGE RESERVATION, 1435
erty right vested by law in the Osiige Nation. The right of consent as a condi-
tion to entry carries with it the power to prohibit entry, and is, therefore, a
contravention of a proi)erty right vested by law in the Osage Nation, and one
which the Osage National Council can not nullify, and the nullification of which
the law gives this department no right to^ approve.
But even if the writteu-cousent clause were not a violation of the law, it
should be disapproved as hostile to the individual as well as the tribal interests
of the members of the O.sage Tribe. The difficulty and the uncertainty in secur-
ing the consent of allottees to enter upon their lands for prospecting and drill-
ing, and the temptation to allottees in possession of lands desirable to bidders
to secure the highest possible price, would inject a large element of speculation
in connection with every applic.-ition for a lease, which would be discounted by
the bidder in a reduction of the price offered the nation as a whole for the oil,
and in favor of the individual to whom he would have to pay the speculative
price for the right to enter. In the nature of things, the comparatively small
number of individuals fortunate enough to hold the lands desirable for pros-
pecting and drilling would be placed in a position to hold up the lessees as a
consideration for consent far in excess of the actual damages to the surface,
while the larger number of individuals upon whose allotments no operations
were conducted would be in position to receive nothing as a consideration for
their consent, and would sacrifice a percentage of their share of the tribal
product to which they were .iustly entitled, to enrich the few individuals hold-
ing a club in the form of written consent. In actual operation under the writ-
ten-consent clause, therefore, the leasing of Osage lands would result in gross
discrimination against the many and in favor of the few, and would be detri-
mental to the interests of the tribe as a whole. The allottees and other own-
ers of the surface in Osage County are entitled to full and just compensation
for actual damages, direct or indirect, suffered as a result of any lease made
by and on behalf of the Osage Nation ; no more and no less. Anything more
would be a trespass uvon tribal rights, anything less a trespass upon individual
rights secured by law. It is the duty of the Osage National Council, in connec-
tion with the leasing of tribal mineral property, to execute no lease that does
not fully guarantee such full and just compensation to the individual surface
owner, and it would misrepresent and wrong the Osage Tribe if it executed a
lease enabling such surface owner to secure more than ftill and just compensa-
tion for damages.
I have elaborated these general arguments against the plan of leasing, ap-
proved by your council, with the hope that you and the members of your cotincil
may be convinced that my action is clearly in the interest of the Osage Nation
and that, after full and conscientious consideration of the reasons which I have
given, it may be possible for you and the department to come together upon a
plan of leasing, as we are already together on the question of the desirability
of making some kind of leases. While I have pointed out on two general
grounds objections to the approval of the four leases submitted, there are other
strong objections to the provisions of these leases, which would make them un-
desirable even if the general objections, which I have already pointed out, did
not exist and which, I am sure, you will see upon a careful consideration of
the leases submitted.
I will take the time here to lioint out briefly a few of the more important
of these objections :
1. The Interstate Commerce Commission has held that the Uncle Sam Oil
Co. is a common carrier, and it has been ordered to file with it by September 1
its schedule of rates and charges. This department has decided to approve
no leases in the midcontinent oil field with pipe-line companies, which are
coumion carriers. This decision, of itself, would eliminate from consideration
the application of the Uncle Sam Oil Co.
2. TheUncle Sam Oil Co. offers a bonus of 1 per acre. The other three
applicants offer no bonus. A glance at the map submited with these bids will
show that, if these lands were offered in open competition, the average oil
man would give no more for the territory covered by the application of the
Uncle Sam Oil Co. than the lands covered by the other three applications. If
200.000 acres of Osage territory is worth a bonus of $1 per acre, why should
not the council, at least, try to secure an equal bonus for the remaining
600,000 acres? In other words, even if tlie application of tlie Uncle Sam Oil
Co. should be approved, would not the Osage Council and tlie department be
properly subject to criticism for not n)aking some attempt to secure a similar
bonus on the remaining lands?
1436 0SAC4E RESERVATION.
3. The written-cousent clause in the leases submitted would apply only to
cases where the surface was owned by allottees or his or her heirs ""and to land
sold by order of the court in distribution of an estate. The protection of the
written-consent clause is denied to lands purchased from allottees. This omission
would work to the detriment of every single member of the Osage Tribe who
might sell his land. It would have the effect of depreciating the market value
of lands in Osage County and thus indirectly reduce the value of the wealth
of the Osage Nation. It would have the same effect as if there were failure in
the regulntions to provide for full and just compensation for surface damages
to every surface owner.
4. The four leases submitted, while giving the proposed lessee the I'ight of
way over every foot of land in Osage County, fail to make any provision what-
ever for damages, except in case of damages growing out of prospecting and
drilling, and the provision made for damages in such cases would be ineffective,
for the leases have absolutely no provision of any method for determining such
damages and provide no iienalty for failure on the part of the lessee to pay
such damages.
5. These leases provide for a royalty of one-eighth, or 12* per cent. The
subleases, under the Foster lease, are now earning a royalty of one-sixth, or
16S per cent. I can see no reason why the nnleised portion of Osage County
should not also earn a royalty of one-sixth, or 16^ per cent. The loss to the
Osage Nation by accepting a smaller royalty offered in event of the discovery
of oil in considerable quantities, you can see, would run up into many thousands
of dollars of loss to the Osage Nation.
The department is now preparing regulations, which will be ready for pro-
mulgation in a short time, which it is believed cover all the objections dis-
cussed herein and which, it is also believed, will safeguard the Osage Nation
against any injustice which it feels that it may l)e suffering under the present
Foster leases.
Respectfully.
S.\MUEL Adams,
First Assist atit Secretary.
[Copy foi- information of .]
Janizary 3, 1913.
In section 9 of the act of Congress approved June 28, 1908, providing for the
creation of the Omaha Tribal Council, it is provided that "the Secretary of the
Interior is hereby authorized to remove from the council any member or mem-
bers thereof for good cause, to be by him determined."
By virtue of the authority thus vested in me I have determined that good
cause exists for the removal of each and every member of said council, and
Hari-y Kohpay, Me-ke-wah-ti-an-kah, A. H. Brown, Peh-tsa-moie. E-stah-o-gre-
she. W. S. Mathews, and Oscar A. Ririe are each hereby removed from member-
ship in the Osage Tribal Council.
It is not necessary that I should assign the reasons for this action; but in
order that these reasons may be known by all of the members of the Osage
Tribe and by all others interested, I state as the reason for my action that the
Osage Tribal Council as constituted prior to this order has shown by the
things it has done and the things it has failed to do that it has been controlled
by influences hostile to the best intei*ests of the tribe, and the said council and
each member thereof has proven recreant to the duty owed to the tribe by the
said council and its members. It has permitted outsiders (some of whom
have financial interests in the matters involved) to influence its policies and
its actions contrary to the interests of the tribe and in matters of the greatest
importance to the tribe. It has refused to follow the ex])ress wishes of the
majority of the adult male members of the tribe that the bids made on the 11th
day of November. 1912. for leases on the oil and gas deposits belonging to the
tribe be accepted and that leases be executed thereon. It has persisted in
attempting to have these deposits leased on terms and in a manner definitely
disapproved by the Secretary of the Interior, whose action in the matter has
been sustained by the President of the IlnittMl States after a hearing given to
parties interested in securing such leases. It has failed to take any step to
till the vacancy in the oflice of iirincipal chief caused by the removal of Bacon
Hind, or the vacancy in the oflice of assistant chief caused by the removal of
Henry Redeagle, or the vacancy in the membership of the tribal council caused
OSAGE RESERVATION". 1437
by llie removal of Thomas West. It has even failed to provule auy method
of tilliiig vacancies in the tribal comicil, and this failnre compels me to take
the necessary steps for this pnrpose.
Walter L. Fisui:r, Secretary.
February IT, 1914.
My Dear Senator: Iu further response to your communication dated Decem-
ber 17. 1913. requesting information regarding the leasing of Osage lands for
oil and gas mining purposes. I take pleasure in submitting the following report,
in which the items are numbered in .'.ccordance with the paragraphs of your
letter :
1. The Osage lands which have been leased for oil and gas mining purposes
should be grouped iu two classes — those covered by the so-called Foster lease
and tho.se covered by leases approved under regulations pronnilgated by the
department on July 3, 1012.
Oil March 16. 1S96. James Bigheart. principal chief of the Osage Tribe, pur-
suant to the authority of the council, executed a lease for the production of
petroleum and natural gas to Edwin B. Foster, covering the entire Osage Reser-
vation of about 1,500.000 acres. This lease, a copy of which accompanies this
report, was made under section 3 of the act of February 28. 1S91 (20 8tat. L.,
794). as amended by the act of August 1.5. 1S94 (2S Stat. L., 3(i5). The leaso
was drawn for a term of 10 years, and provided for royalties of one-tenth per
cent of all crude petroleum produced, based on the market value of the product
at the place of production, and $50 per annum for each gas well utilized. On
April 8, 1896. the department gave its approval to the transaction. On May S,
1896, Edwin B. Foster assigned all his interest in the lease to the I'hoenix
Oil Co. On December 13, 1899. the Phoenix Oil Co. transferred to Samuel C.
Shetlield a part of lease covering 60 square miles. On June 13, 1900, Samuel
C. Sheffield assigned all his interest to the Osago Oil Co.
On January 3. 1902. the Phoenix Oil Co. assigned to the Indian Territory
Illuminating Oil Co. the remainder of its interest in the lease. On April 23,
1902, the Osage Oil Co. assigned all its interest in the lease to the Indian Terri-
tory Illuminating Oil Co. Under these various assignments, which all received
the approval of the department on January 7, 1903, the entire interest iu the
lease passed into the hands of the Indian Territory Illuminating Oil Co.. which
company subsequently made a number of subleases covering specified areas.
In the act of March 3. 1905 (33 Stat.. 1061), it was provided that—
" Said lease and all subleases thereof duly executed on or before December
thirty-first, nineteen hundred and four, or executed after that date based upon
contracts made prior thereto, and which have been or shall be approved by
the Secretary of the Interior, to the extent of six hundred and eighty thousand
acres in the aggregate, are hereby extended for a period of ten years from the
sixteenth day of March, nineteen hundred and six, with all the conditions of
said original lease except that from and after the sixteenth day of March,
nineteen hundred and six, the royalty to be paid on gas shall be $100 per
annum on each gas well, instead of $50 as now provided in said lease, and
except that the President of the United States shall determine the amount of
royalty to be paid for oil."
The I'resident fixed the royalty of oil at one-eighth, or 12^ per cent, of the
production. The leasehold interest in the 6sO.<X»0 acres, on which the lease
was renewed l)y the act cited, has by various subleases and assignments passed
into the haiuls of a large number of persons, firms, and corporations as shown
by the accompanying tal)le, " List A." As a rule the subleases ])rovide that the
Indian Territ(n-y Illuminating Oil Co. shall be paid by the sublessee lOjt per
cent of all oil jtroduced. and th;it company also has the privilege of taking over
all gas wells. All interests of the Foster lease as extended will terminate on
March 16, 1916, and there is now under consideration in the office an applica-
tion for renewal.
Section 3 of the act of Congress api)roved June 28. 1906 (34 Stat. L.. 539,.
543). which act provided for the division of the lauds and funds of the Osage
Tribe, reserved to the tribe for the period of 25 years from Ai)ril 8, 1906, the
oil, gas, coal, and other minerals covei-ed bv the lands, and further provided
that :
" Leases for all oil. gas, and other minerals, covered by selections and division
of land herein provided for, may be made by the Osage Tribe of Indians
356( II — rr 1 2—14 4
1438
OSAGE RESERVATION.
through its tribal council, aud with the approval of the Secretary of the Inte-
rior, and under such rules and regulations as he may prescribe : Provided,
That the royalties to be paid to the Osage Tribe under any mineral lease so
made shall be determined by the President of the United States."
On July 3, 1912, the department prescribed regulations to govern the leasing
of that part of the reservation not covered by the Foster lease as extended.
A copy of the regulations and copies of amendments thereto of January 9 and
August 25, 1913, are inclosed.
There is also inclosed " List B " of leases and assignments which have been
approved under the regulations last referred to. The lease form (Form B)
used under the regulations of July 3, 1912, is printed in the back of the pam-
phlet. Under these regulations all leases are drawn for a term of 10 years
from date of approval by the department, and as long thereafter as oil and gas
is found in paying quantities, with the provision, however, that the lease shall
not extend beyond April 8. 1931. The royalty paid on both oil aud gas is 16§
per cent of the market value at the well, which royalty was fixed by the Presi-
dent, in accordance with the act of June 28, 1906, supra. The regulations and
lease form also contain provisions for the ascertainment and settlement of
damages to the owners of the surface. The regulations of Julj^ 3, 1912, pro-
vide that the laud shall be offered for lease under sealed bids. Competition is
based on the amount of bonus offered for any ])articulnr subdivision. last B
shows the bonuses paid for the lauds which have .so far been leased.
The lists referred to aboAe were prepared as of January 1, 1914.
2. From " List B" it will be observed that the Prairie Oil & Gas Co. is inter-
ested in 18,167.2 acres of Osage oil and gas lands, exclusive of the area within
the Foster lease as renewed by the act of March 3, 1905, supra. Of this acre-
age the company holds under assignment one-half interest in 17,207 acres, and
full interest by original lease in 960.2 acres. As will be seen from the answer
under No. 1, the original Foster lease covered the entire Osage Reservation.
3. "List A" shows that the Prairie Oil & Gas Co. has leasehold interests in
lands covered by the Foster lease as extended in 32,800 acres. It is interested
with other sublessees in 5,280 acres of the area named, and holds a full interest
in 27,520 acres except the gas interest retained by the Indian Territory Illumi-
nating Oil Co. under the terms of the subleases and assignments.
4. Following is a statement of assignments of Osage oil and gas interests
appi-oved to the Prairie Oil & Gas Co. in the 18 months preceding January 1,
1914 :
Assignor.
Date
assignment.
Acreage involved.
Date
approval
assignment.
UNDEE FOSTER LEASE.
John W. Dyson
American Oil & Gas Co.
S. C. CrandaU
A. T. Fancher
Iroquois Oil & Gas Co..
National Oil & Gas Co.
Northwestern Oil Co. .
Seneca Oil Co
Western Oil & Gas Co.
Feb.
Oct.
Oct.
Nov.
Oct.
10,1911
22, 1910
10, 1910
2, 1910
22, 1910
A. T. Fancher
Total interest in 25,360 acres, undi-
vided seven-twelfths interest in
5,280 acres
do
Mar. 10,1913
Oct. 22,1910
Dec. 20,1910
Oct. 24,1910
Nov. 2, 1910
EXCLUSIVE OF FOSTER LEASE.
Continental Oil & Refining Co
Keystone Oil & Gas Co
John W. Gilliland
Undivided one-half interest in .
May 24,1913
May 26,1913
May 31,1913
320 acres
4,640 acres
1,280 acres
4,080 acres
Three-fourths interest in 3,360
acres.
11,520 acres
640 acres
2,240 acres
640 acres
Undivided one-half interest in
960 acres.
do
30,640 acres.
One-half interest in 11,505 acres..
One-half interest in 5,062 acres...
One half interest in 640 acres
17,207 acres.
Dec. 27,1912
Dec. 30,1912
Dec. 27,1912
Dec. 30,1912
Do.
Jan. 2,
Apr. 5,
Jan. 2,
Do.
Do.
1913
1913
1913
Dec. 30,1912
i
June 10,1913
Do.
Aug. 6, 1913
5. Having no official informatiou regarding the mortgage held by the Stand-
ard Oil Co. on the Barnsdnll holdings, 1 i-equesteil the superintendent in charge
of the Osage Agency to ascertain what he could do about the matter and submit
a report - , ..., ^...-«u-k v
I
OSAGE EESERVATIOiSr. 1439
The superintendent's report of February 2, 1914, and the papers which
accompanied it have already been forwarded to you in compliance with your
informal request of February 7. These papers show that T. N. Barnsdall has
mortgaged his interests in Osage oil and gas lands to the Standard Oil Co.
through W. J. Young, and that the amount of the mortgage at this time is
$G.S86,37o.6o, and that the terms of tlie agreement are such as to place the
entire management and control of the Barnsdall Oil Co. into the hands of
W. J. Young, who is acting for the Standard Oil Co. of New Jersey.
6. The superintendent's report referred to above shows that the Carter Oil
Co. is largely owned by the Sttiudard Oil Co. of New Jersey. The Carter Oil
Co. has a lease of 160 acres on Osage lands as shown by " List B." The
superintendent also called attention to the fact that while it is the general
consensus of opinion that the Prairie Oil & Gas Co. is subsidiary to the Stand-
ard Oil Co. he has no direct evidence at hand to disclose just what the rela-
tions between the companies are. There is no doubt that the two companies
have some common stockholders.
With respect to the Carter Oil Co. the records of this otBce show that about
99 per cent of the capital stock of the company is owned by the Standard Oil
Co. of New Jersey. The Carter Oil Co. made application to the department
for the approval of an assignment covering a lease of restricted lands in the
Five Civilized Tribes, which applic:ition was disapproved by the department
for the reason that some of the stockholders in the Standard Oil Co. of New
Jersey were also stockholders in the Prairie Oil & Gas Co. of Kansas, and the
latter company had at that time the maximum acreage of restricted lands
in the Five Civilized Tribes which under the regulations could be held under
lease by any one person, firm, or corporation.
The president of the company made emphatic oral representations to the
office that although the Standard Oil Co. controlled the Carter Oil Co. in the
matter of stock owner.ship it did not in any manner interfere with or attempt
to influence the policies and business dealings of the Carter Oil Co. ; the boards
of directors of the two companies being composed of different sets of men.
7. The Foster lease provided that prospecting should be begun within six
months after the approval of the instrument by the Secretary of the Interior.
The lease did not set forth the extent of operations to be conducted.
The leases approved under the regulations of July 3, 1012 (see Form B in
pamphlet inclosed), require that the lessee shall commence to drill at least one
well on every leased designated ' subdivision within 90 days and complete
such well or wells within one year from the date of approval of the lease by
the Secreta<"y of the Interior, or pay. as liquidated damages the sum of $2,000
for each and every test well not completed within the year. Under the regula-
tions, a designated subdivision may be 5,120 acres or less. "List B" shows
the number of designated subdivisions held bv each lessee under the regula-
tions of July 3. 1912.
S. As shown by "List A," lai'ge areas of lands under the Foster lease are
under one control, the largest being that controlled by the Barnsdall Oil Co.
and allied interests of approximately 325,000 acres. There was nothing con-
tained in the Foster lease, as originally made and as extended, to limit the
acreage which might be held by any sublessee. In the regulations of July 3,
1912, the maximum acreage which may be held under lease by anyone person,
firm, or corporation is fixed at 25,000 acres. The so-called Foster lease will
expire on March 16. 1916, and in considering the applications for renewal of
the various interests under that lease and the many questions involved, that of
the acreage held by the various interests, and whether such acreage shall be
limited, will be given careful thought. I may say, however, that the policy of
the department is opposed to permitting any one person, firm, or corporation to
control sufficient acreage to amount to a monopoly. This is clearly shown by
the regulations governing leasing of restricted lands in the Five Civilized
Tribes, which limits the amount which may be held by any person, firm, or
corporation to 4,800 acres, and in the regulations of July 3, 1912, governing the
leasing of the Osage lands, which, as stated above, places the maximum at
25.000 acres.
We keep a record of the acreage held by each lessee and will not approve any
additional lease when the lessee has reached the maximum, and. in fact, we
have gone so far as not to approve a leaf=e to an individual if he was a member
of a firm or a stockholder in a corporation which holds the maximum acreage,
no matter how small his interest, and. on the other hand, we will not approve
a lease to a firm or corporation of which any individual member holds the
1440
OSAGE BESEKVATION.
maximum acreage under lease. We can not, however, control stock transfcM;s
and c-ombinations after the lessees have leased the limit ot restricted lands. ^^ e
can only refuse to approve any additional leases.
? regret the delay in furnishing the information called for in your letter
of December 17, but this has been due to the necessity of obtaining a report from
*^^ ^^''very truly, yours, . Cato Sells, Commissioner.
Hon. Joe't. Robinson, .. . x ,-, nv.,;,-o
Chairman Joint Commission to Invcsttgatc Indian ^mns,
Lnttcd States Senate.
List ^Suhlcssecs and assignees of Osage lands under the so-caJled Fos,er
lease' tvith date of approval Jjy Department of the Interior of instrument
under which leasehold interest is held, and acreage involved.
TTbo V<^t U arranged alphabetically, and where more than one person, firm, or corpora-
^ tion is involved fn any particular acreage, the item is listed under the name of each
person, firm, or corporation interested.]
Sublessee or assignee.
Date of approval.
cSw.^-----------------'---------
Boggs 'Drilling Co
Aiken, F.M
Fancher, A. T
Boggs Drilling Co
Almeda Oil Co
Amm, James
Craig, G.L
Penmar Oil Co
Anchor Oil Co
Ashland Oil Co
Attee, Marv H
Aurora Oil & Gas Co...
National Oil & Gas Co.
Ball, CM
Markham, J. H., jr
Ball & Markham
Markham, John H
Barney Oil Co
Barnsdall, N. B
Barnsdall, T.N..
Barnsdall Oil Co.
Do.
Barnsdall Oil Co.
BarnsdaU, T.N..
Barnsdall Oil Co
Brennan, J. H
Frost, D. E
Barnsdall Oil Co
Frost, D.E
Barnsdall Oil Co
Gill,T.H
Barnsdall Oil Co
Greulich, L. J
Barnsdall Oil Co
Imperial Osage Development Co .
Barnsdall Oil Co
Indian Territory Illuminating Oil Co.
Feb. 2, 1907..
,Mar. 9,1903.-
\July 28, 1908.
Mar. 15, 1907, and Feb. 10, 1908.
Mar. 22,1910
Feb. 25, 1907
Apr. 29, 1907
Oct. 16, 1911, and Feb. 8, 1911.
I-Feb. 11, 1911
Oct. 28, 1913, and May 4, 1908. ,
Aug. 30, 1907
Dec. 18, 1905
June 30, 1904, and Aug. 3, 1907 .
Aug. 3, 1907
Mar. 30, 1907, and May 14, 1909.
Aug. 3, 1907
Aug. 3, 1907, and May 14, 1909. .
May 5, 1908
Dec. 8, 1908
Dec. 29, 1908
May 14, 1909
June 30, 1904, and Aug. 3, 1907.
Aug. 3, 1907
Mar. 30, 1907, and Jan. 25, 1910.
Jan. 25, 1910, and June 1, 1910. .
Jan. 25, 1910, and May 23, 1906.
jjune 1, 1904, and Aug. 3, 1907 . .
JDec. 18, 1905, and Aug. 3, 1907.
Jan. 25, 1910..
Apr. 28,1910.
OSAGE RESERVATIOISr.
1441
List A.-
-Sifhlcssccs and assignees of Osage lands under tlie so-called Foster
lease, etc. — Contimied.
Sublessee or assignee.
Date of approval.
Acreage.
Care Barnsdall Oil Co.
Jouffriou, H. L
Barnsdall Oil Co
Jouffriou, H. L
Barnsdall Oil Co
Leahv, W. T
Barnsdall Oil Co
Miller, F.E
Barnsdall Oil Co
Moffett, J. S
Care Barnsdall Oil Co.
Morev, M. M
Barnsdall Oil Co
Neenah Oil Co
Barnsdall Oil Co
Osage Development Co,
Barnsdall Oil Co
Osage Oklahoma Co.
Barnsdall Oil Co....
Sand Creek Oil Co..
Barnsdall Oil Co
Stihvell.M.F
Barnsdall Oil Co
Waller, T.M
AVa?ner,S. H
Barnsdall Oil Co
Washington Oil Co..
Barnsdall Oil Co
Wilson, W.M
Crand total in which Barnsdall Oil Co. is
interested.
Bates, Rofi-Argue, Maire Bros. Oil Co
Bu -zard, C. A
Baxter, A. B
McGuire, J. E
De ( loIier.C. F
Bell, Jo n A
Breene, '.M
Sys em Oil Co
Bell, Joan A.,jr
Getty, Geo. F
Breene, >'. M
System Oil Co
Bell, E . S
Forty-five Oil Co
Belniont Oil Co
Bloom, C. L
Florer, J.N
McBride, A. P
Boggs DrEling Co ,
Aiken, F. M
Curtis, W. L
Boggs Drilling Co
Fancher, A . T
Aiken, F. M
Boston, F. T
Boston-Osage Oil Co
Texas Co
Braden, G. T
Moore, Christ
Braden, G. T
Steel , John A
Breene, F. M
Bell, John A
System Oil Co
Breene, F. M ,
Bell, John A., jr
Getty, George F
System Oil Co
Breene, F. M
Shea, J.J
Breene, F. M
Shea, J.J
Moffett, J. S ,
JMar. 30, 1907
|Aug. 3, 1907, and Mar.
>Aug. 3, 1907, and June
I Aug. 3, 1907, and Mar.
JAug. 3, 1907, and Nov.
|Mar.8,1906
JMar. 30, 1907, and Aug
30, 1907.
3, 1906..
3,1907..
18, 1907.
3, 1907
640
1,280
640
640
640
640
3,200
....do
Aug. 3, 1907
4,720
640
5,360
I Apr. 5, 1907, and Aug. 3, 1907. .
lAug. 3, 1907, and Mar. 15, 1907.
I Aug. 3, 1907, and Dec. 18, 1905.
[ A.pr. 3, 1907, and Aug. 3, 1907 . . .
}-.\ug. 3, 1907, and Dec. IS, 1905 . .
I Aug. 3, 1907, and Mar. 30, 1907. .
118, 284
2,560
1,600
640
3,520
640
336,117
j-Nov. 6, 1907, and Oct. 7, 1911..
[nov. 17, 1908 :
Mar. 10, 1911 Mav 4, 1912, Mar. 31, 1911, and
■ Feb. 17, 1912.
Mar. 31, 1911, and Feb. 17, 1912
Mar. 25, 1907.
Sept. 6, 1910..
Oct. 11, 1907.
Feb. 5, 1906, and July 31, 1911.
peb.2, 1907
June 26, 1907
I Aug. 4, 1904, and June 14, 1913.
j-Mar. 15, 1907
j-Dec. 13, 1910, and Sept. 4, 1913.
Mar. 10, 1911; May 4, 1912; Mar. 31, 1911;
■ Feb, 17, 1912,
Mar. 31, 1911, and Feb. 17, 1912.
iMay 18, 1911
Inov. 18, 1907, and May 18, 1911.
640
2,200
140
eo
1,020
9,0JO
640
640
640
780
10,160
2, .591
717
140
60
80
640
1442
OSAGE EESERVATION.
List A. — Sublessees and assignees of Osage lands tinder the so-called Foster
lease, etc. — Continued.
Sublessee or assignee.
Date of approval.
Bremian, John H.
Foster, H. V
Brennan, J. H
Frost, D . E
Barnsdall Oil Co
Buckeye-Osage Oil Co
Bushnell, T. H., receiver for Dennison, Prior &
Co.
Buzzard, C. A
Roth-Argue, Maire Bros. Oil Co.
Buzzard, C. A
Roth- Argue, Maire Bros. Oil Co
Bates
Byers, J. C
Ratner, S
Sutten.S. W
Hetheriagton, J. F
Morphis, J. C
Carter, E . B
Carter, W.N
Overlees, F. M
Mason, D. B
Church, Geo. W
Caton, L
Carter, W.N
Overlees, F. M
Mason, D. B
Church, Geo. W
Caton , L
Carter, E . B
Carter Bros. Oil Co
Caton, L
Carter, E. B
Carter, W.N
Overlees, F. M
Mason, D. B
Church, Geo. W
Chief Bisheart Oil Co
Mason, t). B
Overlees, F. M
Church, George W
Caton, L
Carter, E. B
Carter, Vv. N
Overlees, F. M
Mason, D. B
Coulev, C. A
Walker, J. L
Producers' Oil Co
Craig, G. L
Amm, James
Penmar Oil Co
Crane, H. O
Crescent Oil Co
Curl, J.J
Ciu-t is, W . L
Aiken, F. M
Boggs Drilling Co
Davis, W.N
Foster, TI. V
Davis, W.N
Foster, H . V
Sperata Oil Co
De Golier, C. F
Baxter, A. B
McGuire, J. K
Dennison Prior & Co., T II. Bushnell, receiver. ,
Dullield, Lewis C
Dull on, l'".(li)Uind
Dili Ion, Phillip II
Golden, Owen
Dutton, Phillip H
Golden, Owen
Dutton. K dmunci
Edith Oil Co
May 25, 1907, and Apr. 21, 1913.
Apr.21, 1913
Mar. 30, 1907, and Jan. 25, 1910.
Apr. 5, 1907..
Jan. 17, 1912.
Nov. 6, 1907, Apr. 12, 1910, and Oct. 7, 1911.
Nov. 6, 1907, and Oct. 7, 1911
Nov. 6, 1907, and Oct. 7, 1911.
Mar. 15, 1907.
June 26, 1907, and Sept. 5, 1912.
....do ;....
June 20, 1903
June 26, 1907, and Sept. 5,1912.
Jan. 10, 1908, and Sept. 16, 1913.
June 26, 1907, and Sept. 5, 1912.
Mar.3, 1913
Mar. 15, 1907, and Feb. 10, 1908.
Sept. 17, 1907.
Feb. 2, 1907..
June 26, 1907.
Feb. 5, 1906, and July 31, 1911..
May 10, 1907, and Jan. 15, 1913.
May 10, 1907, and Nov. 29, 1911 .
Nov. 17, 1908.
Jan. 17, 1912..
Dec. 5, 1913..
Apr. 25, 1913.
.do.
.do.
OSAGE RESEEVATION.
1443
List A. — Suhlesscc'i and assignees of Osage lands under the so-called Foster
lease, ete. — Continued.
Sublessee or assignee.
Elmer Oil Co
Prairie Oil & Gas Co
Emery, .Tolm C
Eureka-Osage Oil Co
Fancher, A. T
Aiken, F. M
Boggs Drilling Co
Federal Oil & Gas Co
Fifty-Nine Osage Oil Co
Finance Oil Co
Finance Oil Co
Franchott, N. V. V
Finance Oil Co
Livingstone Oil Co
Finance Oil Co
Wilson, W. M
Florer, J.N
McBride, A . P
Bloom, C. L
Forty-five Oil Co
BeU,E. S
Foster, H . V
Foster, H. V
Brennan, John H
Foster, H. V
Davis, W.N
Foster, H.V
Davis, W.N
Sperata Oil Co
Foster, H. V
Gypsy Oil Co
Foster, H.V
Leech, C. F
Foster, H.V
Northwestern Oil Co
Foster, H. V
Robb, A. D
Franchott, N.V.\'
Do
Finance Oil Co
Frost, D. E
Bamsdall Oil Co
Frost, D. E
Bamsdall O il Co
Brennan, J. H
Frost, D.E
McGrew, A. B
German American Oil & Gas Co
Getty, George F
Breene, F. M
Bell,John A.,jr
Svstem Oil Co
Gilbert, P. A., care of D. W. Franchott.
Gilkev, S. M
Care of GUkey, S. M., Pochequette Oil Co
Gill,T.H......
Bamsdall Oil Co
G illespic, F. A
Kennedy, S. G
Golden, Owen
Dili ton, Edmund
Dutton, I'hilip H
Great V.estern OU Co
Date of approval.
►Aug. 30, 1907, and Dec. 30, 1912.
June 7, 1912
Mar.30, 1907
Feb. 2, 1907
/Mar.
\Nov.
1906.
, 1909.
Jan. 23, 1905.
/Jan.
Uan.
J-July
{•Dec.
)-Mar.
Oct.
Apr.
1911.
1912.
1912, andMay 22, 1906.
1908, and Apr. 2,1912..
1907, and Jan. 31, 1911.
1907..
1907.
[July 25, 1907.
Uan. 14, 1911.
iJan. 17, 1912.
May 25, 1907, and Apr. 21, 1913.
Apr.21,1913
JMay 10, 1907, and Jan. 15, 1913..
May 10, 1907, and Nov. 29, 1911.
)jan. 14, 1911, and Feb. 14, 1911.
Apr. 27, 1907.
Aug. 8, 1912..
May 10,1911
jjune 8, 1912, and Oct. 7, 1911.
May 22,1906.
May 22, 1906, and July 16, 1912.
jjune 1, 1910, and Jan. 25, 1910. . .
[Mar. 30, 1907, and Jan. 25, 1910. .
June 1, 1910, and Dec. 19, 1912 . .
Jan. 29, 1913
Mar. 31, 1911, and Feb. 17, 1912.
May 24, 1906
Mar. 18, 1907
.\pr.27,1907
JMay 23, 1907, and Jan. 25, 1910.
June 12, 1913
.Vpr.25,1913..
June 26, 1907.
Acreage.
960
2,060
3,020
1,200
960
800
1,760
1444
OSAGE RESERVATION.
List A.
-Suhlcssees and assignees of Osage UukIs under
lease, etc. — Continued.
Ihc so-called Foster
Sublessee or assignee.
Date of approval.
Green Bay Oil Co Apr. 29, 1909
New^Londonoiicov;;;;::::::::::::::::::::;;; W^^^s, 1907, and Apr. 29, 1909.
Greulich, L. J June 1, 1904.
Do
Barnsdall Oil Co
Gunsburg, David
Swain, Guy
Gypsy Oil Co.
Do
Foster, H. V ,
Hethertngton, J. F ,
Morphis, J. C
Byers, J. C
Ratner, S
Sutton, S. W
Hodag Oil Co
Hulings, T. C
Shrvock, G. A
Roberts, G. L
Imperial Osage Development Co .
Do
Barnsdall Oil Co
Indian Territory Illuminatiug Oil Co.
Indian Territory Illuminating Oil Co., by reason
of cancellation of sublease of San Francisco-
Osage Oil Co.
Indian Territorv Illuminating Oil Co.
Barnsdall Oil Co
jjune 1, 190-1, and Aug. 3, 1907. . ,
JDec. 13, 1913, and Aug. 24, 1912.
(Sept. 19, 1910.
Uan. 23, 1911..
iFeb. 1.5, 1911.
|jan. 14, 1911, and Feb. 4, 1911.
Mar. 15, 1907
do
Sept. 13, 1911
Dec. 18, 1905
JDec. 18, 1905, and Aug. 3, 1907.
Y
Mar. 3.1905
Feb. 12,1908
Feb. 12. 1908, and Apr. 2. 1912.
July 16. 1908
Aug. 6. 1908
Julv 14. 1910
Feb. 23.1911
Jan. 17. 1912
June 5. 1912
lAug. 19,1912
June 25, 1912.
Jan. 25. 1910.
Apr. 28.1910.
|.Tune23,1909.
Jan. 15, 1906..
April 15, 1913.
....do
Indian Territorv Illuminating Oil Co
Sehlact, Black & Rider
Ingalls, Ralph
Interstate Oil Co
Do
Mason, D. B .„„, „« ir>io
Overlees.F.M jOct. 29, 1913,
Jay Bee Oil Co I Apr. 23, 1913
Jennings, E. H. & Bros I Mar. 15. 1907
Johnston, O. S I June 20. 1907
Jones. J. B Mar. 18,1937
Do
National Oil & Gas Co
JoufTriou, 11. L., care of Barnsdall Oil Co..
Jouffriou, H. L
Barnsdall Oil Co
Keesage Oil Co
Kennedy, S. G
Gillespie, F. A
Kingbell Oil Co
KnLsclv Oil Co
Lahona Oil & Gas Co
Lamberton, Robert
Larkin, F
Wichita Drilling & Developing Co
Leahy, W. T
Barnsdall Oil Co
Leech, C. F
Foster, H. V
Livingston Oil Co
Finance Oil Co
j-Mar. 13. 1907, and Feb. 8, 1911 . . .
Mar.30,1907
JMar. 30, 1907, and Aug. 3, 1907. .
Dec. 18, 1905
\jime 12
1913.
Mar. 23, 1912.
Aug. 30, 1907.
Mar. 18, 1907.
Mar. 2, 1911..
Feb. 29, 1912
Ijune 3, 1906, and Aug. 3, 1907. .
[■Aug. 8, 1912, and Apr. 27, 1907.
iDec. 29, 1908, and Apr. 2, 1912.,
OSAGE EESERVATION.
1445
List A. — Suhlcssccti cnid assignees of Osngr InmJs under the so-ealled Foster
lease, ete. — Continued.
Sublessee or assignee.
Date of approval.
Mallory Bros. iCo.
Manhattan Oil Co..
Jan. 27, 1905..
[Nov. 10, 1909.
•^ Sept. 26, 1910.
(Apr. 29, 1911.
Markham, John H., jr i Mar. 15, 1907
Bau!c:M::::;::::::::::::::::;:::::::::::::::::'}Feb.ii,i9ii
Markham, John H., jr 'irv„i oo im., i »r . ,,^.m
Markham ct Ball.... |[Oct. 28, 1913, and May 4, 190S
Mar3d?am,-johnH\\":::::::::::::::::;::::::::::W^>-^' 1908, and Oct. 28, 1913
Mason, D. B
Chm'ch, George W
Caton, L
Carter, E. B
Carter, W. N
O verlee.s, F. M
Mason, D. B
Overlees, F. M
Chief Bifiheart Oil Co
Mason, I). B
Overlees, F. M
Interstate OU Co
Matson Oil Co.
^June 26, 1907, and Sept. 5, 1912.
Sept. 16, 1913, and Jan. 10, 1908.
Oct. 29, 1913, and Apr. 15, 1913.
iJan. 21, 1905
Jan. 25, 1906
Mar. 15, 1007
Mar. 15, 1907, and Oct. 9, 1909.
Jan. 17, 1912.
{•Oct. 11, 1907.
McBrido, .\. P
Do
Florer, J. N
Bloom, C. L
McGrew, .-\. B Il-June 1, 1010, and Dec. 19, 1912.
Frost, D. E
McGiiire, J. E
Baxter, A. B
De Golier, C. F
McMahon, John C
McMan Oil Co
Noble, Charles F
Mechanics' Savings Bank
Steyner Oil Co
Mchhar Producing Co
Miller, F. E.
Barnsdall Oil Co
Minnehoma Oil Co.
Moffctt, J. S
Mollntt, J. S
Barnsdall Oil Co.
MolMt, J. S
BrocTie, F. M
Shea, J. J
Moore, Clint
Braden, G. T
Moore, Clint
Nov. 17, 1908
Feb. 24, 1906
{■Apr. 25, 1913
I Jan. 4, 1906, and Dec. 16, 1909.
Mar. 12, 1912
JMar. 30, 1907, and Aug. 3, 1907.
/Jun." 3, 1904.
\Mar. 10, 1911.
Nov. 18, 1907
Nov. 18, 1907, and Aug. 3, 1907.
Nov. IS, 1907, and May IS, 1911.
j-Mar. 15, 1907
Acreage.
1,280
960
6,540
1,840
9,340
550
400
550
550
960
80
Mar. 15, 1907, Apr. 29, 1909, and May 1, 1909.
Silurian Oil Co '.'.'.. '.'.\ Mar. 15, 1907, and Apr. 29, 1909
Morny, M. M., care of Barnsdall Oil Co j Mar. 8, 1906.
Morphis, J. C
Bycrs, J. C
Ratner, S I-Mar. 15, 1907
Sutton, S. W '
Hctherington, J. L |
National Oil & Gas Co It-i o ,r.i. irw^ ,- ,/m,
Aurora Oil & Gas Co }Feb. 8, 1911, and Oct. lb, 1911.
National Oil & Gas Co
Jones, J. B
JMar. 18, 1907, and Feb. 8, 1911.
1,200
640
2,940
1.100
5,880
640
640
1,2(K)
2,200
1,920
1,200
22, 160
610
040
1,100
345
3, 120
640
610
2, .561
1,200
600
1,800
40
1,200
1,200
1446
OSAGE EESEKVATION.
List A.
-Stihlessees and assignees of Osage lands under the so-called Foster
lease, etc. — Coutiuued.
Sublessee or assignee.
Date of approval.
Acreage.
Neenah Oil Co
Do
BarnsdaUOilCo....
New London Oil Co.
Do
Green Bay OUCo...
Nicaragua Oil Co.
Mar. 30, 1907
JMar. 30, 1907, and Aug. 3, 1907.
Aug. 28, 1907
jjuly 25, 1907, and Apr. 29, 1909.
320
3,200
320
320
/Mar. 15, 1907.
\Mar. 30, 1907.
'»»160
Noble, Charles F
McMan Oil Co
Northwestern Oil Co
Foster, H. V
Osage Development Co
Do ! Mar. 30, 1907, and Aug. 3, 1907.
Barnsdall Oil Co \ Aug. 3, 1907
JApr. 25, 1913.
j-May 10, 1911 .
Mar. 30, 1907.
1,200
640
Osage Fifty-eight Oil Co Mar. 18, 1907 ,
§STo'?co^^:'.^-::::::::::::::::::::;::;:jK•^
MlsS'i^''::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::}^^^*-^^'^^^^
Chief Bigheart Oil Co > Jan. 10, 1908.
Overlees, F. M
Mason, D. B
Church, Geo. W
Carter, E. B
Carter, W. N
Caton, L
Overlees, F.M i\q t 09 1913
Mason, D. B ^^uct. z\), 1\)16..
Interstate Oil Co Apr. 15, 1913.
Page, Charles ' Dec. 13 , 1910 .
Panther Oil & Development Co I Aug. 13, 1909.
June 26, 1907, and Sept. 5, 1912.
Pawhuska Oil & Gas Co.
jfMar. 12, 1904.
ban. 17,1905.,
iDec. 18,1905.
Rot£A^e;MakeBros:bii Co:::::;;;:: ::::;:: i}Nov. e, 1907, Nov. 6,1907, and Apr. 12,1911.
Peet, AVm., trustee Aug. 14, 1913
Penmar Oil Co I Mar. 15, 1907.
Do
Amm, James
Craig, G. L ,
Penna-Osage Oil Co
Do
Steel, John A ,
PhiUips, Frank
Phillips, Waite.
Do
Shea, J.J
Pochequette Oil Co
Pochequcttc Oil Co., care of S. M. Gilkey.
Prairie Oil & Gas Co.
Do
Elmer Oil Co.
Mar. 15, 1907, and Feb. 10, 1908.
Mar. 30, 1907
JMar. 30, 1907, and Aug. 20, 1913.
Jan. 25, 1910
/Mar. 2, 1911.
\Nov. 2, 1911.
JMay 28, 1911.
Apr. 27, 1907.
do
Apr. 25, 1910
Dec. 27, 1912
Dec. 30 1912
Dec: 30, 1912; 'and JaJi: 2, 'l913.
Jan. 2, 1913
Apr. 5, 1913
JAug. 30, 1907, and Dee. 30, 1912.
4,720
640
5,360
1,200
118, 284
960
585
80
3,083
240
1,600
1,280
320
3,200
640
1,109
3,040
3,200
160
320
2,560
120
550
670
264
320
320
1.200
1,600
8,720
960
14,400
640
27,520
3,360
OSAGE RESERVATION.
1447
List A.-
-Suhlcssecs and assignees of Osage lands under the so-ealled Foster
lease, etc. — Coutinued.
Sublessee or assignee.
Date of approval.
Acreage.
Prairie Oil & Gas Co.
Shulthis, A. W
Feb. 23, 1911
June 15, 1910, and Feb. 23, 1911.
Total in which Prairie Oil & Gas Co. has
interests
Producers Oil Co
Coulev,C. A
Walker, J. L
Ratner, S
Sutton, S. W
Hetherington, J. F
Morphis, J. C
Byers, J. C
Rhinelander Osage Oil Co.
Robb, A. D
Foster, H. V
Roberts, G. L
Hulings,T.C
Shryock, G. A
Ronne, J. K
Spaulding, Charles
Sivain, Guy
Roth-Argue, Maire Bros. Oil Co.
Roth-Argue, Maire Bros
Bates
Buzzard, C. A
Roth-Argue, Maire Bros. Oil Co.
Buzzard, C. A
Roth-Argue, Maire Bros. Oil Co
Paw'huska Oil & Gas Co
Sagamore Oil & Gas Co
Do
Wolverine Oil Co
Sand Creek Oil Co
Bamsdall Oil Co
Sand Fork CJas & Petroleum Co
Summit Oil Co
San Francisco-Osage Oil Co
Schlaet, Black & Rider
Do
Indian Territory Illuminating Oil Co.
Severance, Frank
Shea, J. J
Breene, F. M
Shea, J.J
Breene, F. M
Moffett, J. S
Shea, J. J
Phillips, Waite
Shrvock, G. A
Roberts, G. L
Hulings, T. C
Shulthis, A. W
Prairie Oil & Gas Co.
■Mar. 3, 1913.
Mar. 15, 1907.
May 9, 1911
|0ct. 7, 1911, and June 8, 1912.
Sept. 13, 1911
Apr. 25, 1907
/Jan. 26, 1905, and Apr. 12, 1911 .
\Nov. 6, 1907, and Apr. 12, 1911 .
Nov. 6, 1907, and Oct. 7, 1911
Nov. 6, 1907; Apr. 12, 1911; Oct. 7, 1911.
Nov. 6, 1907, and Oct. 7, 1911
Nov. 6, 1907; Apr. 12, 1911; and Nov. 6, 1907
Feb. 4, 1907
Feb. 4, 1907, and Feb. 10, 1911
Mar. 15, 1907, and Aug. 3, 1907
INov. 21, 1903, and Mar. 15, 1907
Oct. 11, 1907
June 23, 1909
do
Apr. 25, 1907
May 18, 1911 "
Nov. 18, 1907, and May IS, 1911
May 28, 1911
Sept. 13, 1911
Silurian Oil Co.
Moore, Clint . . .
Feb. 23, 1911
June 15, 1910, and Feb. 23, 1911.
Mar. 15, 1907, Apr. 29, 1909, and May 1, 1909.
Mar. 15, 1907, and Apr. 29, 1909
Skelton-MoorcOilCo.
Spaulding, Charles . . .
Swain, Guy
Ronne, J. k
Sperata Oil Co ,
Foster, H. V
Davis, W. N
Feb. 1, 1906..
Apr. 25, 1907.
Ulay 10, 1907, and Nov. 20, 1911.
1,280
640
1,920
32,800
160
40
1,100
3,120
1,100
160
3,120
2,560
5,680
640
640
1,920
2,560
640
400
1,200
2,560
960
11,520
3,200
1,200
160
80
640
264
1,100
1,280
640
1,920
1,200
600
1,800
980
160
200
1448
OSAGE KESEEVATION.
List A.-
-f^ublessces and assignees of Osage laiuls under Ihe so-called Foster
lease, etc. — ^Coutinued.
Sublessee or assignee.
Date of approval.
Spring Citv Oil Co
Standish Oil Co
Steel, John A
Do
Braden, G. T
Steel, John A
Penna-Osage Oil Co
Sterling Gas & Oil Co
Stevens Point Oil Co
Stej-ner Oil Co
Mechanics' Savings Bank
Stich, A. C
Stilwell, M. F
Bamsdall Oil Co
Sutton, S. W
Hetherington, J. F
Morphi':, J. C
Byers, J. C
Ratner, S
Summit Oil Co
Sand Fork Gas & Petroleum Co.
Swain, Guy
Gunsburg,"Dana
Swain, Guy
Ronne, J K
Spaulding, Charles
System Oil Co
Breene, F. M
Bell, Jolm A.,jr
Getty, George F
System Oil Co
Bell, John A
Breene, F. M
Test Oil Co
Texas Co
Boston Osage Oil Co
Tribal Oil Co
Trio Oil & Gas Co
Uncle Sam Oil Co.
Union Oil Co
Wagner,S.H
Waller,T.M
Barnsdall Oil Co
Wah-shah-she Oil Co
Walker.J.L
Producers' Oil Co
Coulev.C.A
Waller.T.M *.....
■Wagner,S.H
Barnsdall Oil Co
Washington Oil Co
Do
Barnsdall Oil Co
Whiting Oil Co
Wichita DriUing & Dcv. Co.
Larkin, F
Wi'?\vam Oil Co
Wilson, W. M
Barnsdall Oil Co
Wilson, W. M
Finance Oil Co
Wolverine Oil Co.
Do
Sagamore Oil &
Aug. .30, 1907
Apr 23, 1913
June 17, 1912
Isept. 4, 1913, and Dec. 13, 1910. .
JAug. 20, 1913, and Mar. 20, 2 1907
May 8, 1908
Jan. 21, 1905
jjan. 4, 1906, and Dec. 16, 1909. . .
Dec. 18, 1905
JDec. 18, 190.J, and Aug. 3, 1907.. .
■Mar. 15, 1907
JMar. 15, 1907, and Nov. 21, 1903.
JAug. 21, 1912, and Dec. 13, 1913..
Apr. 25, 1907
Mar. 31, 1911, and Feb. 17, 1912.
Mar. 10, 1911, May 4, 1912, Mar. 31, 1911, and
Feb. 17, 1912.
Mar. 15, 1907
I June 14, 1913, and Aug. 4, 1904
Dec. 18, 1905
May 24, 1906
(Mar. 15, 1907.,
■^June2, 1910..
[Sept. 22, 1911.
Jan.
Apr.
Dec.
Mar.
Apr.
Dec.
Dec.
Dec.
Feb.
Dec.
JMar.
JMar.
Nov.
Nov.
Nov.
Ian.
Feb.
26,1905
3, 1907, and Aug. 3, 1907.
18,1905
3,1913
3, 1907, and Aug. 3, 1907...
18,1905
IS, 1905, and Aaig. 3, 1907.,
18,1905
29, 1912
18, 1905
30, 1907, and Aug. 3, 1907.
30, 1907, and Jan. 31, 1911.
5, 1910..
10, 1910.
11,1910.
14,1911..
28, 1911.
Gascov:::::::;::::::::::;:;:::|}^«'^-i«'i«"'""'i
oh. 4, 1907
OSAGE RESEEVATION.
1449
List B. — Leases and assignments aiiproied under the regulations of July 3, 1912.
Lessee or assignee.
Dale.
Acreage.
Bonus.
Date of
approval.
Desig-
nated
subdivi-
Brast, M. A
Assigned to West Virginia Osage Oil Co.;
assigniiient dated May 24, 1913, and approved
July 1, 1913.
Brast, M. A
Carter OiU o
Cosden, J. S
Clover, J. M
Continental Oil & Refining Co
Assigned undivided one-half interest to
Prairie Oil & Gas Co.: assignment dated May
2), 1913, and approved June 10, 1913.
Gilliland, John \V
Assigned one-fourth interest in sec. 11, T. 22,
R. 10, and one-lialf interest in N\V \ of see. 14,
T. 22, R. 10, to John A. Steel, assignn-.ent dated
July S, 1913, and approved Auir. 8, 1913.
Gilliland, John W
AssiL;ned one-half inierest to Prairie Oil &
Gas Co., and one-fourth interest to A. W.
Shulthis: assignment dated May 31, 1913, and
approved -Vug. 6, 1913.
Gypsy Oil Co..";
Kanawha O il Co
Kennedy, Samuel G
Springer, W. A.:
Assigned undivided one-half interest to P. J.
White and H. F. Sinclair; a ssignment dated
Apr. 17. 1913, and approved July 8, 1913.
Keystone O il & G as Co
A.ssigned one-half interest to Prairie Oil &
Gas Co.; assignment dated May 26, 1913, and
apjiroved Tune 10, 1913.
Laurel Oil & Gas Co
Leschen , Henrv
Roeser, W. H . '.
Mtimehoma O il Co
Do
Monitor Oil & Gas Co
Mowris, W. S
Nelson, C. C
Prairie Oil & Gas Co.. undivided one-half interest
1913
Feb. 1
Oct. 15
Oct. 29
Oct. 12
Oct. 15
Feb. 1
.do..
.do..
Oct. 13
Nov. 3
Feb. 1
Feb. 1
Oct. 16
>Oct. 28
Feb. 1
Oct. 27
Oct. 15
Nov. 5
Oct. 24
Under assignment dated May 24, 1913, from
Continental Oil & Refining Co., approved June
10,1913.
Prairie Oil & Gas Co., one-half interest in
Under assignment dated May 26, 1913, from
Keystone Oil & Gas Co., approved June 10,
1913.
Prairie Oil & Gas Co
Prairie Oil <fe Gas Co., one-half interest in
Under assignment dated May 31, 1913, from
John W. Gilliland; approved Aug. 6, 1913.
Ro.xana Petroleum Co
Savoy Oil Co
Shulthis, A. \\'., one-fourth interest in
Under assignment dated May 31, 1913, from
John \\'. Gilliland; approved Aug. 6, 1913.
Steel, John A., one-fourth interest in sec. 11, T. 22,
R. 10, and one-half interest m N vV. \ sec. 14, T.
22 K. 10
Under assignment dated July 8, 1913, and ap-
proved Aug. 8, 1913, from John '\\ . Gilliland.
Steel, John \
Elliott, \V. C
McCltntock, F. G
Bissett.C. F
Stroud, J. W
Twin State Oil Co
Do
West Virginia Osage Oil Co
Under assignment dated May 24, 1913, from
M. A. Brast; approved July 1, 1913.
White, P. J., Sinclair, H. F., undivided one-half
interest in
Under a.ssignment dated .\pr. 17, 1913, from
Samuel G. Kennedy and W. A. Springer, and
approved July 8, 1913.
Oct.
Oct. 21
Oct. 20
Feb. 1
Oct. 20
Oct. 13
..do
320.00
4, 505. 24
160. 00
118.80
80.00
11,505.00
960. 00
640. 00
2, 298. 79
160. 00
4, 730. 00
5,062.00
160.00
160.00
6.54.00
40.00
240.00
160.00
160.00
11,505.00
5,062.00
960. 20
640. 00
200. 00
240. 68
640. 00
960. 00
640.00
320.00
160.00
8.60
320.00
4,780.00
$3,520.00
4,505.24
1,600.00
653. 40
4,000.00
2,398.50
5, 280. 00
640. 00
204,381.60
960. 00
5,258.00
1913
Mar. 3
Nov. 22
...do....
..do....
Oct. 30
Mar. 7
Mar.
..do.
Oct. 29
Nov. 22
Mar. 3
1,265.50 Mar. 7
800. 00
2,448.00
20, 274. 00
4,960.00
6,472.00
163.20
212.80
244,943.70
6, 800. 00
1,350.00
800.00
2, 200. 00
8, 480. 00
2,605.80
Oct. .30
Nov. 22
Mar. 7
Nov. 28
Oct. 30
Nov. 25
Nov. 22
Oct. 27
Oct. 30
Nov. 12
Mar. 3
Oct. 30
..do
..do
(Stamped:) Office of Indian Affairs. Received Mar, 25, 1911.
1450 OSAGE KESERVATION.
[Exact copy of original lease.]
Whereas it is kuowu tlaat other Indian nations have for many years and do
now receive a very considerable revenue from the development of substances
of commercial value found on their reservations; and
Whereas it is believed by the Osage people that the reservation held by them
in common is rich in similar commodities, which it is their desire to develop ;
and
Whereas one Edwin B. Foster, of New York City, N. Y., has made applicatioii
to the Osage National Council for the privilege of prospecting and boring for
petroleum and natural gas upon the Osage Reservation, and proiwses to enter
into a contract for that purpose upon terms that will not be detrimental to
the agricultural interests of the country, and which would increase the
revenue and enhance the value of our common property should such prospect-
ing result in the discovery of the said petroleum or natural gas: Now, there-
fore.
Be it ena<;tcd 'by the Osage 'National Council, assembled at their council house
at Paivhuslca. Oklahoma, tliis IJ^th day of March, 1806, That James Bigheart,
principal chief of the Osage Nation, be, and he is hereby, authorized to enter
into a contract with the said Edwin B. Foster for the development of petroleum
and natural gas only upon the Osage Reservation, and he is hereby instructed
to make the said contract on the form prescribed by the Interior Department
to meet the requirements of law governing such leases, for a term of ten years,
with the privilege of renewal for a term of ten years more at the expiration
thereof, if the results of said lease prove satisfactory and upon the approval of
the agent in charge, subject to the approval of the Commissioner of Indian
Affairs and the Secretary of the Interior.
John Moziek, Saucy Chief (his x mark),
Nat. Secretary. Pres. Council.
Thomas Mozieb, James Bigheart,
Nat. Int. Prin. Chief.
I certify the above a true copy of the original as passed by the O. N. Council
on the date therein mentioned.
H. B. Freeman,
Lt. Col. d Actg. Agent.
Mining Lease.
osage agency, oklahoma territory,
1896.
LEASE OF
FOR PROSPECTING AND MINING FOR OIL AND GAS UPON THE OSAGE RESERVATION,
OKLAHOMA.
MINING LEASE.
This indenture of lease, in triplicate, made and entered into on this IGth day
of March, 1896, by and between James Bigheart, party of the first part, for and
on behalf of the Osage Tribe of Indians, occupjing and residing upon tin-
Osage Reservation in Oklahoma Territory, under and ])ursuant to the action
of the council of said tribe, speaking for the tribe, duly authorizing the said
James Bigheart to contract for the lease of the whole of said reservation, for
the period of ten years, for mining purijoses. for the production of petroleum
and natural gas only, and duly empowering the said James Bigheart. for and
on behalf of said tribe, to make and execute a lease of said reservation lands,
as per resolution of the Osage National Council, hereto attached and made a
part of this agreement, and in accordance with the provisions of section 3 of
the act of Congress approved February IS, 1S91 (26 Stats., 794), as amended
by the act of August 15, 1894 (28 Stats., 305). and Edwin B. Foster, party of
the second part, witnesseth :
OSAGE RESERVATION. 1451
That the said party of the first party, for and in consideration of the pay-
ments to be made by said party of the second part, as herein agreed and stipu-
lated, and by authority of the action cf said national council and the said acts
of Congress, does by these presents lease and grant unto the said i)arty of the
second part, his heirs, executors, administrators, and assigns, the exclusive
right for mining purposes as therein specified, for the period of ten years from
the date of approval thereof by the Secretiiry of the Interior, the following
descril)ed lands, to wit : All the lands in Oklahoma Territory known as the
Osage Indian Reservation, for the sole purpose of prospecting for and drilling
Avells for and mining and producing petroleum and natural gas only, with the
right to use so much of the surface of said lands and so much of the timber,
building stone, water, wood, gas, or other material found thereon as may be
fairly necessary for fuel and with which to construct all dwelling houses,
buildings, or other improvements upon said land that may be properly needed
in order to successfully conduct said prospecting and mining operations: also
the right of way over and across said land to any point desired to prospect
upon and to any point where drilling, boring, or prospecting or operating under
this lease shall be carried on; and the right of way and right to construct and
operate such pipe lines or roadways as may be reasonably necessary to carry
on and successfully prosecute the objects of this indenture.
And the said party of the second part, his heirs, executors, administrators,
assigns, and sublessees, for and in consideration of the privilege of conducting
the mining operations as herein provided for, upon the lands hereinbefore de-
scribed, for the period of time herein stated, hereby covenant and agree to pay
the national treasurer of the Osage Nation, for the use and benefit of said tribe
of Indians, the following royalties, to wit : One-tenth (itj) of all crude petroleum
mined or procured from said lands, as the same is delivered free in tanks at
the wells or places where produced; and fifty dollars ($50.00) per annum for
each gas well that may be discovered and utilized, so long as said well is used
by said second party; said royalties .to be based upon the market value of the
products produced at the place of production, and to be paid to the national
treasurer of the Osage Nation, for the use and benefit of the Osage tribe of
Indians as aforesaid, in cash, at the office of said treasurer. And said second
party further agrees to make settlements of accounts with said treasurer on
account of royalties as herein provided for between the first and tenth day —
both inclusive — of the mouths of January, April, July, and October of ea.ii
year during the term of this lease. And the party of the second part, his execu-
tors, administrators, and assigns, covenant and agree that this indenture is
made with the express proviso that if any of said rents or royalties shall remain
unpaid for thirty days after the same shall have become due and payable as
herein provided for, or if said second party shall use the premises for any pur-
pose save that hereinbefore authorized and agreed upon, or shall commit waste
or suffer it to be committed on said premises, or misuse or fail to take pro])er
care of the same, or shall pay or surrender .said rents and royalties to any per-
son other than the person herein named, or his duly authorized deputy, or shall
fail to exercise such reasonable diligence as good business principles and the
market shall demand in prosecuting said prosi)ecting and mining operations on
the said land, and in a good and workmanlike manner, or shall fail to keep and
perform any and all other agreements and covenants contained in this indenture,
then, in case of any such default, and if such default shall continue for thirty
(30) days after written notice thereof to said lessee, his successors or assigns,
then this lease shall thereupon expire at the option and election of the O.sage
Nation, as expressed by the national council, with the approval of the Secretary
of the Interior, without other notice or demand from the said party of the first
part upon the party of the second part, and said party of the first part may
reenter upon said premises and repossess and recover the same to all intents
and purposes as though said parties of the second part had never occupied the
same, and without such reentering and without demand for rent, said party of
the first i)art may take possession thereof in the manner prescribed by law
relating to proceedings in such cases.
And it is further nnUually agreed and understood by and between the parties
hereto, that the Osage Nation reserves all right it hath, and its citizens have,
to cultivate, graze, and improve, and to lease for farnnng, grazing, and mining
purposes, other than for the mining purpose herein named, all and every part
of the lands contained in said reservation, subject to the limitation herein con-
1452 OSAGE RESERVATION.
tained, and such right shall not be interfered with or disturbed by the party
of the second part, his heirs, executors, administrators, or assigns, except to
such an extent as may be actually and absolutely necessary in prospecting for
and in conducting and marketing the produtcs herein named; and said second
party, and those acting under, through, or by him shall not prospect for or drill
or bore any wells for the production of the substances herein mentioned
within or upon any cultivated inclosure on said reservation without the written
consent of the person occupying such premises, duly acknowledged before the
U. S. Indian agent of the Osage Agency.
And it Is further expressly agreed between the parties hereto that the Osage
Nation shall have the right to the free use of gas for all Government, school,
and. other public buildings of the nation from any well or wells that may be
discovered on said land; and this right shall also extend to all citizens of the
nation for domestic purposes ; provided that no expense shall be incurred by
the party of the second pjart in piping gas for such punioses. And said second
party, in consideration of the covenants herein contained, further covenants
and agrees not to remove from said lands any buildings or improvements
erected thereon during the term of this lease ; but said buildings and improve-
ments shall become a part of the land and shall remain thereon and become
the property of the Osage Nation as a part of the consideration herein provided
for; provided, that all engines, derricks, tools, and machinery shall remain the
property of the party of the second part.
But it is also further expressly provided between the parties hereto, that in
case of failure on the part of the party of the second part to pay the rents
and royalties as herein specified, the Osage Nation shall have a lien upon all
buildings, improvements, engines, derricks, tools, and machinery erected upon
or brought upon said lands by the said second party to secure the payment
of rents and royalties.
And the said second party further agrees and covenants to exercise such
diligence in conducting said prospecting and mining operations as shall be
consistent with good business principles, and to open and operate mines and
wells for the products above indicated in a good and workmanlike manner;
to commit no waste upon said lands and to suffer no waste to be committed
thereon; to take good care of the same and to surrender and return the prem-
ises at the expiration of this lease to the Osage Nation in as good condition as
when received, ordinary wear and tear in the proper use of the same for the
purposes herein indicated, and unavoidable accidents, excepted. And it is
further expressly agreed that if prospecting hereunder shall not be begun within
six months after the approval of this lease by the vSecretary of the Interior,
or if one or the other of the products heroin mentioned be not discovered in
paying quantities within eighteen months after such approval, or in case of
the failure of the party of the second part for a period of six months at any
one time to conduct prospecting or mining operations hereunder, then, or in
either of said cases, this lease shall terminate, and the party of the second
part shall have and exercise no further rights hereunder.
And it is further agreed between the i)arties hereto that the said second
party shall keep a true and accurate record and account of said mining opera-
tions, showing the whoie amount of petroleum mined and ]iroduce(l hereunder
and the nun)i)er of gas wells bored and the number in o]»eration. with dates
of boring and operating, and that the Osage Nation through its proper oiiicers.
the U. S. Indian agent of the Osage Agency, the special Indian agent, and
Indian inspectors of the Interior Department, or such other persons as may
be designated by the Commissioner of Indian Aft"airs or the Secretaiy of the
Interior, shall at all times have the right to make such reasonable examination
of the books, accounts, records, and papers of the party of the second part, or
those claiming under him, as may be necessary to enable them to obtain all
infoi-mation desired as to the amount of petroleum mined and produced here-
under and as to tlie number of gas wells bored and the number that have
been ojierated and utilized, together with the dates of boring and using. And
it is also further ]»rovidcd that the said party of the second part shall enter
into a good and suHicient bond, with at least two sureties, in the sum of .$5,000,
payable to the Secretary of the Interior for the use and benefit of the Osage
Nation. ct)nditioned upon the faithful jierformance of the ctmditions of this
lease, which bond shall be approved by the Secretary of the Interior. It is also
provided that this lease shall become operative only after its approval by the
Secretary of the Interior.
OSAGE RESERVATION. 1453
And it is further expressly provided that the said partj- of the second part,
or those chiiming under him, sliall not maintain any nuisance on said reserva-
tion, and shall not sell or give away, or permit their employees to sell or give
away any intoxicating liquors on said reservation during the term of this
lease: and that he or they will not use the premises for any other purpose than
that authorized in the lease.
And it is agreed and understood between the parties hereto that the privilege
of conducting mining operations hereunder is permitted and agreed to upon
the express condition that if the Indian title to any jiortion of the lands used
and occupied by the lessee, his heirs, or assigns shall be extinguished before
the expiration of the time herein stated, then and in that event this lease shall
be void and of no force and eft'ect with reference to the lands to v\-hich the
title shall be exthiguished, from and after the date of such extinguishment;
and the lessee shall be subject to removal therefrom upon 60 days" notice from
the Secretary of the Interior, in his discretion : ProrhJed. That the extinguish-
ment of title herein mentioned shall not apply to lands which shall be allotted
in severalty to Indians, so as to effect this lease to the lauds so allotted, but
in case any such lauds are so allotted, then the royalties accruing on the same
shall be paid to the allottees, respectively, instead of to the national treasurer
of the Osage Nation.
It is further provided between the parties hereto that no member of or Dele-
gate to Congress, or officer, agent, or employee of the Goxernment shall be
admitted to any share or part in this lease, or derive any benefit to arise
therefrt)m.
In testimony whereof, the said parties of the first and second parts have
hereunto set their hands and seals the day and date first above named. All
erasures and interlineations having been made before signing.
Witnesses: James Bigheart, [seal.]
Fred Morris. Prin. Chief.
Eustace Wheeler.
Witnesses: Edwin B. Foster, [seal,]
e. c. gordox,
James S. Glenn.
On this 16th day of March, 1S96. personally appeared before me, H. B.
Freeman, Lt. Col. 5th Inf., acting U. S. Indian agent of the Osage Agency,
the above mentioned James Bigheart and the above named
personally known to me to be the identical persons named,
and acknowledged the signing and sealing of the above indenture of lease, for
the purposes therein named, to be their free act and deed.
H. B. Freeman,
Lieut. Col. 5th Inf., Acting U. S. Indian Agent.
interpreter's certificate.
I, John Mosier, do hereby certify that I am the official interpreter of the
Osage Nation: that I fully and truthfully interpreted and explained the fore-
going lease to the Osage Nation Council, before the signing and sealing thereof,
and am satisfied that they clearly and fully understood the nature of said
lease and all the terms thereof before authorizing the said James Bigheart
to execute the same for and on behalf of the Osage Nation: and that I wit-
nessed the signing and sealing thereof on the part of said James Bigheart
this 16th day of March, 1896.
John Mosier,
Official Interpreter, Osage 'Nation.
The above lease was renewed as to 680,000 acres for a period of ten years
from March 16, 1906, by the Indian appropriation act for the fiscal year ending
June 30, 1905, approved March 3, 1905, increasing gas-well royalty from $50
to $100 i)er annum, and royalty on oil to be fixed by the President. The Presi-
dent's order of June 3, 1905. increased the royalty on oil to one-eighth. The
act of March 3, 1905, was reaffirmed by "An act for the division of the lands
and funds of the Osage Indians, and for other purposes," approved June 28,
1906.
35601— rx 12—14 5
1454 OSAGE KESEEVATION.
Regulations to Govekn the Leasing of Lands in the Osage Reservation,
Okla., foe Oil and Gas Mining Purposes.
Section 3 ȣ an act of Cougress, approved June 28, 190G (34 Stat, L.. 539,
543), provides:
" That the oil, gas, coal, or other minerals covered by the lands for the selec-
tion and division of which provision is herein made are hereby reserved to the
Osage Tribe for a period of twenty-five years from and after the eighth day of
April, nineteen hundred and six, and leases for all oil, gas, and other minerals,
covered by selections and division of land herein provided for, may be made by
the Osage Tribe of Indians through its tribal council, and with the approval
of the Secretary of the Interior, and under such rules and regulations as he
may prescribe : Provided, That the royalties to be paid to the Osage Tribe un-
der any mineral lease so made shall be determined by the President of the
TTnited States : And provided further. That no mining of or prospecting for any
of said mineral or minerals shall be permitted on the homestead .selections
herein provided for without the written consent of the Secretary of the In-
terior: Provided, however, That nothing herein contained shall be construed as
affecting any valid existing lease or contract."
To carry this provision of law into effect the following regulations are pre-
scribed to govern the leasing of such lands for oil and gas mining purposes :
definition.
1. The term '' officer in charge " shall refer to the superintendent of the
Osage Indian School or other representative of the Government who may,- for
the time, be in charge of the Osage Agency and Reservation, or any person who
may be detailed by the Secretary of the Interior or the Commissioner of Indian
Affairs to take charge of leasing or mining operations under these regulations.
2. At such times as the Secretary of the Interior shall direct, the officer in
charge shall publish in the two leading newspapers of Pawhuska, Okla., and in
such other manner as shall be deemed appropriate notices that specific tracts
of Osage lands will be offered for lease to the highest and most resix>nsible
bidder, under the sealed-bid system, leases to be executed upon the prescribd
form and subject to these regulations.
3. Should the Osage National Council or any person or corporation desire to
have any i^articular tract of land offered for lease, written request to that effect
should be sul)mitted to the officer in charge, who will promply transmit such
requests to the Secretary of the Interior with his recommendation.
4. The lands selected for lease will, as a rule, be offered in large tracts, with
designated subdivisions thereof of from three hundred and twenty (320) to
five thousand one hundred and twenty (5,120) acres.
Bids will be considered for any one or more of the smaller tracts or desig-
uated subdivisions, up to the maximum acreage which may be leased by any
one person, firm, or corporation, as provided in section eighteen (18) of these
regulations.
No bid for any fractional part or subdivision of any tract, except as adver-
tised, will be considered.
The right is reserved to reject any and all bids,
5. If a bidder for several designated subdivisions desires to secure all or
none, he may so state in his bid.
6. All bids shall be submitted on Form A, which may be obtained from the
officer in charge.
7. Bids must be inclosed in a sealed enveloi)e addressed to the Superintend-
ent, Osage Indian School, Pawhuska, Okla., on which must be plainly written
"Bids for leases, Osage Nation, to be o])ened " (giving the date of
opening named in the published advertisement). Each bid must be accom-
panied by a certified check on a solvent national bank, payable to the superin-
tendent and special disbursing officer, Csage Agency, in an amount representing
ten per cent (10%) of the bonus offered plus the first year's advance rental
of fifteen (15) cents per acre, as a guarantee of good faith and the intention
of the bidder to comply with the conditions of the bid and of the regulations.
m
OSAGE RESERVATION. 1455
8. A coriX)ration shall file with its first bid one certified copy of articles of
incorporation, and, if a foreign corporation, evidence showing conii)liance with
local corporation laws; a list of all officers and stockholders, with their ix)st-
office addresses, and showing the number of shares of capital stock held by
each, together with a sworn statement of its pro])er officer showing —
(a) The total nnmber of shares of the cajiital stock actually issu.ed. the num-
ber of shares actually sold and specifically the amount of cash paid into the
treasury on the stock sold; or. if paid in property, state kind, quantity, and
value of the same paid.
(h) Of the stock sold, how much per share remains uup.-iid and subject to
assessment.
((■) How much cash the comijany has in its treasury and elsewhere, and
from what sources it was recei^•ed.
{)l) What property, exclusive of ca.sli. is owned by the company, and Its
value.
((■) What the total indebtedness of the company is, and specifically the
nature of its ol)ligations.
(/) List of officers and directors.
9. All l>ids received l\v the officer in charge in pursuance of any authorized
advertisement shall be oi.ened by him or his representative on the day and at
the hour named in the published advertisement in the council room of the
Osage Tribe and in the presence of the Osage National Council, or such mem-
bers thereof as may attend.
As the bids are opened full information concerning each bid shall be entered
in a journal and the same placed before the Osage Council for its action.
EXECUTION OF LEASES AND BONDS.
10. Successful bidders will be allowed thirty (30) days from date of notice
of acceptance of bid within which to execute leases and otherwise comjily witli
these regulations. Failure on the part of a bidder whose bid shall be accepted
to complj- with this paragraph shall operate as a forfeiture of the amount ten-
dered as a guarantee of good faith.
Successful bidders shall pay to the officer in charge the unpaid balances of
their bids upon approval of their leases by the Secretary of the Interior. De-
liveiy of leases shall be withheld pending such payment.
The amounts tendered with all bids thi^t are rejected shall be inuuediately
returned to the bidders.
11. No drilling or mining shall be permitted upon any tract of land until a
ler.se covering such tract shall have been approved by the Secretary of the
Interior and delivered to the lessee.
12. All leases shrJl be made for a period of ten (10) years from the date of
appi-oval thereof by the Secretary of the Interior ami as long thereafter as
oil and gas are found in paying guantities: Provided, That in no case shall the
term of any lease extend beyond April eight (8), nineteen humlred and thirty-
one (1931)".
One lease shall be executed to cover all the designated subdivisions of the par-
ticular large track advertised which may be awarded to the same bidder.
Leases made by corporations shall be accompanied by a single affidavit, form
" E," by the secretary or president of the company, showing the authority of
its officers to execute leases, bonds, and other papers.
13. No individual, firm, pipe-line company or other corporation, engaged in
the business of transporting oil, shall be permitted to acquire any lease or any
interest therein.
Lessees shall furnish with each lease an affidavit on form " D," which shall
stnte specifically that he, it, or they are not engaged in the business of trans-
porting oil, and what, if any, consideration has been paid by such lessee or on
his l)ehalf, and to wh<mi, for the execution of the lease.
14. The action of the tribal council in connection with the acceptance of any
bid or bids and the execution of any lease or leases shall be reduced to writing
and properly signed and authenticnted. A certificate signed by the principal
chief or assistant principal chief and attested by the secretary, showing action
of the council, should be attachejl to each lease.
IT). Lessees shall furnish with each lease, at the time it is filed with the officer
in charge, a bond (Form C) with two or more acceptable sureties, or with a
surety company duly authoried to act as sole surety on bonds running to the
1456 OSAGE EESERVATION.
Unite<^l States. Such bonds shall be in an amount equal to three thousand
dollars ($3,000) for each and every designated subdivision covered by the par-
ticular lease.
All bonds shall be conditioned for the payment of all rents, royaties, and dam-
ages, if any, and for the faithful carrying out of all other provisions of the
lease, and shall contain specific reference in case such test wells are not drilled
within the time required, and payment of damages done to the surface of the
land, as provided in section twenty-six (26) of these regulations.
The right is specifically reserved to change the amount of the bond in any
particular case or to require a new bond where the Secretary of the Interior
may deem it proper so to do.
16. The ofiicei' in charge may, at any time, either before or after approval
of a lease, call for any additional information necessary to carry out the pur-
pose and intent of these regulations, and such information shall be furnished
within the time specified in the request therefor.
17. Should a lessee fail to furnish, within the time specified after his bid is
accepted, the jn'pers necessra-y to put his lease and bond in proper form for
consideration, the officer in charge shall forward such lease immediately for
disapproval.
ACREAGE.
18. No person, firm, or corporation may hold at any one time under lease,
assignment, drilling contract, or otherwise, more than twenty-five thousand
(25,000) acres of Osage lands at present not under lease for oil or gas pro-
duction; but a.ny lessee who may surrender or in good faith transfer, in the
manner prescribed in these regulations, all or any part of his holdings may
acquire other lands in lieu of those surrendered or transferred.
KENTALS AND ROYALTIES.
19. I^essees .shall pay, in addition to other considerations, annual advance
rentals as follows: Fifteen cents per acre for the first year; 30 cents per acre
for the second year; 50 cents per acre for the third year; and $1 per acre per
annum for the fourth and each succeeding year during the life of any lease:
Provided, That all such payments of advanced rentals shall be credits on royal-
ties on ])roduction during the year for which payment of advanced rental is
made.
The payment of annual advance rent;il shall not release the lessee from the
obligation to drill test wells, as required by the terms of the lease.
20. As provided in the act of June 28, 1906, supra, the President has fixed
royalties on production as follows:
(a) On oil the rate of royalty shall be sixteen and two-thirds per cent (10§%)
of the gross proceeds of all oil producetl from the leased i)remises and such
royalty shall be paid in money, based on the actual market value, not less than
the guaranteed minimum value of sixty (60) cents per barrel, unless the Osage
("ouncil elects, with the approval of the Secretary of the Interior, to take the
royalty in oil.
(b) For gas, which is sold or used other than for the development of the
lands covered by the lease, the rate of royalty shall be sixteen and two-thirds
per cent (165%) of the market value of such gas at the well: Provided, That
should either the Osage Council or the Secretary of the Interior be of the opinion
that the price at which the lessee sells such gas is not the true market value at
the well, the Secretary of the Interior shall, after notice and heariug, deter-
mine the market value, and the lessee shall account to the lessor at the rate
fixed by the Secretary of the Interior as aforesaid. Meters shall be iustalletl
at the expense of the lessee for the purpose of measuriTig the sui)])ly of gas. and
the a.ccounting shall be on the basis of the supply as shown by the meter
statements.
The standard rock pressure in the sale of gas shall be 2 pounds.
Where wells produce both oil and gas in commercial quantities and the gas
is found in a formation sufficiently above the oil-bearing sand and has been
cased off and ulilized, such ga.s shall be gauged and Ihe roy.nlty determined as
liei-ein provided for gas wells. Where wells iH'oduce both oil and gas through
the same casing, or gas alone in limited quantities, lessees may dispose of such
gas upon payment of royalty.
Failure on the part of the lessee to use a gas-producing well which can not
be profitably utilized at the rate herein described shall not work a forfeiture of
OSAGE RESEKVATIOX. 1457
liis lease so far as the same relates ti) luiuiny oil, but if the lessee desires to
retain gas-producing privileges he shall pay a rental of one hundred dollars
($100) per annum, in advance, calculated from the date of discovery of gas,
on each gas-producing well, gas from which is not marketed or utilized other-
wise than for operations under the lease.
In the event that any lessee during the course of a year desires to utilize
commercially the gas from a well retained in accordance with the foregoing
paragraph, the one hundred dollars ($10<l) paid as royalty shall be credited on
the amount due from the lessee during the course of that year on account of
the sale of gas from such well; the total amount to be paid by any lessee,
however, in any one year shall be not less than one hundred dollars ($100) on
each gas well on the land covered by his lease.
PAYMENT OF RENTALS AND ROYALTIES.
21. All rentals, royalties, damages, or other amounts which may become due
under leases appi'oved in accordance with these regulations shall be paid to
the superintendent of the Osage Indian School at Pawhuska. Okla. The remit-
tances shall be in St. Louis or Kansas City exchange, except that where such
exchange can not be procured post-olfice or express money orders will be
accepted. All royalties or other payments or claims of the Osage Tribe arising
under such leases shall be a lien upon the mining ])lant, machinery, and all
minerals mined on the property leased or in which the lessee still retains any
right, claim, or interest.
22. Royalties on all oil and gas produced in any month shall be paid on or
befoi-e the twenty-fifth (25th) day of the mouth next succeeding, and the remit-
tances shall be accompanies by sworn reiiorts covering all operations whether
there has been production or not. Lessees shall show in this statement the
total jimount of oil and gas sold and not mei-ely their working interest, and
also the dates of discovery and beginning of utilization of gas from gas wells.
23. The lessee may include in one sworn statement all leases upon which there
is no production or upon which dry holes have been drilled.
24. I'nless the Osage National Council elects to take its royalties in oil, as
provided in section twenty (20) hereof, the lessee may, with the consent of the
officer in charge, make arrangements with the purchasers of oil for the payment
of royalty to the superintendent of the Osage Indian School, but such arrange-
ments, if made, shall not operate to relieve the lessee from the responsibility for
the ii.iyment of the royalty, should such purchaser fail, neglect, or refuse to#
pay the royalty. Where lessees avail themselves of the privilege outlines in
this i)aragraph. division oi'ders authorizing pi])e-line companies or other pur-
chasers of oil to withhold the royalty intere.st shall be executed and forwarded
to the otiicer in charge for approval before the oil from any well is I'un to any
pipe-line company or other purchaser. Pipe-line companies shall not accept or
run oil from such leases until after the approval of division orders showing
that the lessee has a lease regularly approved and in effect.
OPERATION.
2.1. Each lessee shall conniience to drill at least one well on each and every
leased designated subdivision within ninety (90) days and shall complete
siK'h well or wells within one year from the date of the approv;il of the lease
by the Secretary of the Interior. After the drilling of a well is commenced, the
drilling operations shall be conducted with due and reason.-ible diligence until
such well is completed or is drilled to such depth as the oil iusitector of the
Osage Agency shall deem reasonable. Failure on the i>art of the lessee to
begin, continue, or complete the drilling of the well shall l)e cause for cancella-
tion or forfeiture of all or any part of the lease, as the Secretary of the Interior,
in his discretion, may determine.
In a<ldition to forfeiture of the lea.se for failure to drill the re(iuired test
well or wells provided for in the lease, the lessee and his surety, by reason of
the impossil)ility of accurtaely determining the amount of damages wliich will
be occasioned the Osage Nation |jy such default, shall pay to the officer in
charge for the use and benefit of the le.ssor. as and for liquidated damages and
not as a ])enalty. the sum of two* thou sand dollars ($2,000) for e.ach and every
test well re(piired by the lease to l)e drilled and not conii)leted within one year
from the date of the approval of the lea.se by the Secretary of the Interior, and
execution of the lease shall be conclusive evidence of the assent of lessee and
1458 OSAGE RESEKYATION.
lessor to liquidated damages in the sum of two thousand dollars ($2,000) per
well for defaults within the time limit named herein, and the lessee and his
surety shall be liable for such payment, even though the Secretary of the
Interior, in his discretion, should continue the lease in force and effect.
Any lessee, having drilled and completed the test well or wells required by
the lease to be drilled and completed, may release and surrender all the land
covered by the lease or any designated subdivision thereof, or such sections of
six hundred and forty (640) acres of any designated subdivision as he may
elect, on the payment of all rentals and royalties due on the date of such sur-
render, as provided in section forty-five (45) of these regulations.
Any lessee electing to hold his lease, or any designated subdivision thereof
exceeding in area two thousand five hundred and sixty (2,560) acres, after the
period of one year allowed for the drilling of one test well on each designated
subdivision has expired shall drill and complete at least one additional te.st well
on each designated subdivision exceeding two thousand five hundred and sixty
(2,560) acres within one year from and after the date of expiration of the time
allowed for the drilling and completion of the first test well, or in default
thereof shall pay to the officer in charge for the use and benefit of the Osage
Nation by reason of the impossibility of determining the amount of damage
which will be occasioned to the lessor on account of failure to drill the second
test well as aforesaid the sum of two thousand dollars ($2,000). as and for
liquidated damages and not as a penalty, for each second test well for which
the lessee is in default in addition to any and all other payments required by
these regulations and the terms of the lease.
26. liessees may use so much of the surface of the leased land as shall be
reasonablj^ necessary for the prospecting and mining operations required by
the lease, and shall also have the right of way over and across such land to
any point of prospecting or mining operations, but such use of the surface shall
be permissible only under condition of least injury and inconvenience to the
allottee or owner of the land. Lessees before commencing and during such
operations shall pay all reasonable damages for the use of the surface land and
to any growing crops thereon, or to improvements on said land, or any damage
that during the life of the lease may be occasioned in any manner whatsoever
by the use of the surface, to the allottee or his successor in interest or assignee,
or to a lessee of the surface of said land, damages to be apportioned among
the parties interested in the surface, whether as owners, lessees, or otherwise,
as the parties in interest may mutually agree or as their interests may appear:
^ Provided, That when the amount of such damage is not agreed upon between
the parties in interest any of said parties may notify the officer in charge,
whereupon such officer shall notifv the parties in interest that he will after
ten days from date of notice investigate the matter of damages, such notice
to be sent to the lessee, allottee, or his heirs, and such other persons as may
have informed the officer in charge in writing of a claim to an interest in the
lands. The officer in charge shall thereupon determine the damages and aiipor-
tionment thereof between the parties in interest, such determination to be final
unless an appeal therefx'om be taken to the Secretary of the Interior within
ten (10) days from date of notice of the determination by the officer in charge.
The decision of the Secretary of the Interior on appeal shall be final and con-
clusive on all parties. Where appeals are taken to the Secretary of the Interior
the lessee may proceed with operations, pending appeal, by depositing with the
officer in charge the amount fixed by him as damages, and pending action to
the appeal so much of said amount as is not in dispute between the parties in
interest may be disbursed. Where any party in interest is a minor or noncom-
petent Indian any agreement made as to damages, or faihn-e to agree, may be
investigated i)y both the ])rincipal chief of the Osage Tribe and the officer in
charge within ten days after notification to them by any party in interest, and
an appraisal and written statement in reference thereto made by the principal
chief and the officer in charge in writing, said written appraisal and statements
to be transmilted to the Secretai-y of the Interior in case of a disagreement
between them or of an appeal from their determination, and the action of the
Secretary of the Interior shall be final and conclusive on all jiarties.
27. I>essees and tliose acting under them shall not conduct prosjiecting or
mining oper.-ilions within or upon any homestead selection or upon land which
has been cultivated thirty days or more prior to application to drill, without the
written consent of the Secretary of the Interior, to be given only after a
written statement showing the views of the allottee with reference thereto or
after reasonable opportunity shall have been given for the allottee to be
OSAGE RESERVATION. 1459
lieard, iiiul after appraisal and detei'niination of damages shall have been agreed
upon or fixed as heretofore provided with respect to other allotments. Guard-
ians, legal or natural, may make such written statement for their Indian wards,
and where no one is authorized or where no person is deemed by the officer in
charge to be a proper party to speak for a minor or person of unsound mind or
of feeble understanding, such written statement may be made by the principal
chief of the Osage Tribe.
28. Any person, other than a lessee or an allottee or the heirs of a deceased
allottee, claiming an interest in any leased tract or in damages thereto must
furnish to the othcer in charge a statement in writing showing his interest, and
failure to furnish such statement shall constitute a waiver of notice and estop
said person from claiming any part of such damages after the same shall have
been disbursed.
20. I>essees will not be permitted to use any timber from any Osage lands
not relieved of restrictions upon alienation except under written agreement with
the owner approved by the officer in charge.
30. No well shall be drilled within fifty feet of any public highway or sec-
tion line. No oil or gas well or tank shall be located within three hundred
(300) feet of any building used as a dwelling, granary, shelter for stock, or
establi-shed watering place, unless, in order to prevent serious loss to any lessee
by reason of drainage, written permission to drill within said prohibited dis-
tance shall be given by the officer in charge after ten (10) days' notice to the
allottee as herein provided. As far as practicable, all pipes shall be laid under-
ground, so as not to interfere with agricultural or grazing privileges, and the
oil inspector of the Osage Agency shall have the right of final decision in all
cases as to the practicability in view of all the circumstances including the place
of operations and the cost of laying such pipes underground.
31. Lessees or operators shall plug all dry or abandoned wells in accordance
with the laws of the State of Oklahoma. In the event the lessee or operator
shall fail to plug properly any dry or abandoned well in accordance with the
laws of the State, the officer in charge may. after five (5) days' notice to the
parties in interest, plug such well at the risk and cost of the lessee and his
sureties. Failure to plug a dry or abandoned well as herein provided shall be
a good and sufficient cause for the cancellation of the lease in the discretion of
the Secretary of the Interior.
82. Whenever any lessee or operator, in drilling wells for oil or gas on lands
from which coal or other minerals are being mined, finds that such well passes
through any such mine, the lessee or operator shall drill the well to a depth of
at least 10 feet below the vein of coal or other mineral being mined, and such
well shall be cased and sealed on the outside of the casing with suitable ma-
terial to the level of the floor of the mine, and each vein of coal or other mineral
being mined, pierced by such well, shall be sealed in the same manner.
Upon the abandonment of any well drilled for oil or gas, which has passed
through any vein of coal or other mineral, the lessee or operator shall fully
protect such vein of coal or other mineral in the .same manner as has been
heretofore provided in section thirty-one hereof for the protection of oil or
gas bearing rock or sand or in such manner as shall be satisfactory to the officer
in charge.
38. All " B-S ■■ or other refuse fnim tanks and wells shall be drawn off
into proper receptacles at a safe distance from the tanks, well, or buildings,
and dispfised of by being burned : but in no case shall it be permitted to flow
over the surface of the land to the injury of auj- surrounding property or to
the pollution of any stream : Providc'l. That in cases where it is impossible to
burn '■ I'.-S '■ and other refuse, or where in the operation of a well it is neces-
sary to pump salt water in such quantities as would damage the surface of
the lands or pollute any stream, the officer in charge, after having been so
notified by the lessee or operator, shall cause an examination of the conditions
and shall issue instructions in each separate instance as to the manner in which
the " B-S ■■ and refuse or salt water shall be disposed of. Failure on the part
of the lessee to properly care for " B-S " and other refuse, in accordance with
this provision, will be sufficient cause for the cancellation of the lease by the
Secretary of the Interior after notice and opportunity to be heard.
84. If in the drilling iif wells both gas and oil are encountered in commercial
quantities and the gas is found in a formation sufficiently above the oil-bearing
sand to [lermit being separated from the oil by ca.sing. such gas shall be so
separated from the oil and securely shut in and preserved, and shall not be
1460 OSAGE EESERVATION.
permitted to How with the oil through the same string of casiug : Pxavided,
That in all those cases where a well is producing both oil and gas and it is
impossible or impracticable to case the gas off from the oil, it shall then be
within the discretion of the officer in charge, subject to appeal to the Secretary
of the Interior, to determine whether such well shall be operated as an oil
well or shall be closed in until such time as the gas may be utilized and the
oil produced without waste of gas.
35. To prevent the escape of gas, lessees and operators in possession of any
gas-producing well shall, within five days after penetrating the gas-bearing
rock or sand, shut in and confine the gas in such well until such time as the
gas shall be utilized for light, fuel, steam, or other purpo.ses: Provided, That
this regulation shall not apply to any well which is operated for oil, or during
the process of drilling when reasonable diligence is used, or when oil is found
in a lower stratum of sand and the gas found in the upper .stratum is cased
■off and tJie well is operated as an oil well. Lessees or operators shall pay to
the officer in charge the sum of ten dollars ($10) per day for each well during
the time such well is allowed to go uncontrolled or uncared for, as provided
In this section, unavoidable accidents excepted.
Amendment to the regulations of July 3, 1912, governing the leasing of lands in the
Osage Reservation, Okla., for oil and gas-mining purposes, under section .3 of the act of
June 28, 1906 (34 Stat. L., 539, 543).
Section 35 of the regulations approved July 3, 1912, to govern the leasing of
lands in the Osage Reservation, Okla., for oil and gas-mining purposes, is hereby
amended and modified to read as follows :
" Sec. 35. (a) Lessees, sublessees, and assignees drilling for oil or gas on
Indian lands must keep at each well ready for immediate use, the best approved
facilities for capping the well to prevent the waste of gas or oil in case of the
unexpected flow of either from the well ; in case of wells already under way,
immediately notify the superintendent of the Osage agency of the exact location
-of each well and the kind of equipment for capping oil and gas wells provided
hj them. Les.sees, sublessees, and assignees must hereafter furnish such report
immediately upon the commencement of every new well.
"(b) In all oil or gas wells where gas occurs above the oil, the gas must be
forced back and held in the .strata until needed, in which case the drilling for
oil can be resumed as soon as the gas has been confined in its own stratum, or
the drilling must be discontinued and the well securely capped to prevent the
waste of the gas, or the gas must be cased off and brought out of the well for
use, separate from the oil.
'• In no case shall gas occurring in strata above the oil be used to lift oil from
the oil-bearing strata to the surface and be allowed to escape.
"(c) Operators will be expected to exercise every reasonable precaution to
avoid waste of natural gas, after separation from the oil, where the gas occurs
in the same strata and comes from the wells with the oil.
" In general, every possible precaution must be taken to stop the present
Avaste and prevent future w;iste of natural gas both at the wells and from con-
necting pipe lines, and also to prevent the wasteful use of gas about the wells.
"(d) When, in the course of drilling, operators strike water, drilling must be
stopped, before proceeding into the strata, until adequate provision has been
made for permanently shutting out the water and thus preventing its reaching
either the overlying or underlying oil and gas bearing strata.
"(c) A failure on the part of the lessees or operators to prevent a waste of
gas and to protect the oil and gas strata from an inflow of water, as provided
by these regulations, shall be a violation of one of the material and substantial
terms and conditions of the lease and shall subject the lease to cancellation by
the Secretary of the Interior."
Tlu^se amendments shall become effective and be in full force from and after
the (late of approval hereof, and supersede all former regulations in conflict
therewith.
Cato Sells.
Commis-ioner of Indian Affairs.
Dep.\rtment of the Interior. Washinrjfon. D. C.
Approved August 25, 1913.
A. A. Jones.
First Assistant Secretary.
I
OSAGE RESERVATIOif. 1461
36. Lessees shall have the right to the free use of so imieh of the oil aud gas
on any leased tract as shall be fairly necessary for light and fuel in mining
operations conducted on such tract, but such privilege shall be restricted to
an economical use by the means of modern appliances: Provided, That should
oil or gas be furnished from any leased tract to the lessee, driller, or operator
on another leased tract, the lessee ftn-nishing oil or gas for mining operations on
•such other leased tract not producing sufiicient oil or gas to conduct operations
thereon shall pay to the officer in charge the royalties prescribed in the lease.
37. Lessees and those operating under them who may use natural gas for
outside ilIumin;ition upon the premises covered by a lease shall be required to
use the device known as a '' Storm burner," or other burner which consumes
no more gas than the " Storm burner." Lamps shall not be lighted earlier than
five (5) o'clock in the afternoon and shall be ONtinguished not later than
eight (8) o'clock each morning, and the officer in charge shall be the sole
judge as to the number of lights to be permitted upon and around any leased
tract, sub.iect to api)eal therefrom to the Secretary of the Interior. Stop-
cocks shall be placed on all pipes used for conveying gas to burning devices
of any character and the gas shall be shut off at all times wlien not in n.se.
3S. Lessees and those operating under them, using natural gas for fuel in
steam boilers, shall provide a st:'.ndard economical burner adapted for steam
boilers and sha.ll also provide such boilers with standard Iioiler regulators so
connected that the steam pressure will regulate the flow of gas. The boiler
shall also be provided with a smokestack not less than ten (10) feet in height.
39. Lessees shall provide proper tankage of suitable shape for accurate meas-
urement into which production of crude oil shall be conducted direr-t from
wells through pipes or other closed connections. If the contents of such tanks
are removed from the le:;sed premises or disposed of in any maimer other than
to a ptirchaser to whom a division order has been approved, authority therefor
must first be procured from the officer in charge, accurate measurement made,
and the production reported and royalty thereon paid in the usual manner.
40. In cases of emergency where the capacity of new wells is such that
lessees are unable inmiediately to provide proper tankage, production may, with
the ai)proval of the officer in charge, be conducted to open ponds or earthen
tanks, but in no case shall any embankment exceed fifteen (15) feet in height.
Such ponds or earthen tanks shall be so constructed as to minimize the danger
of overflow or collapse or damaire to crops on adjacent property.
41. Crude oil run into earthen tanks in cases of emergency shall not be
allowed to remain in such earthen tankage for a longer period than fifteen (15)
(lays, except that where lessees /lesi re so to store their oil such tankage may be
used after the oil has been properly gauged and royalt.v paid thereon wlien the
tanks are so constructed as to remove all reasonable danger of fires, overflow,
and damage to other property. The right is reserved for the officer in charge
to supervise the construction of earthen tanks.
42. Oil to I)e temporarily held or stored in earthen tankage must be run from
the wells into receiving tanks capable of accurate measurement, and then
gauged liefore being turned into earthen tankage.
43. Oil shall not be sold to a pipe-line company until a division order is
approved by the officer in charge. Should the lessee desire to sell or remove
oil from the leased premises in any other manner, such sale or removal shall
not be made until first authorized by the officer in charge. The lessee or his
authorized representative shall actually be present when oil taken under
division orders is run by the pii)e-line company and the lessee shall be respon-
sible for the correct measurement and report of oil so run; and shall be liable
to account on the basis of the ])i!)e-line reports, plain error or mistake excej^ted.
otherwise the ai)proval of division orders may l)e revoked.
ASSIONMKNTS.
44. Ajiproved leases or any interest therein may be sublet, transferred, or
assigned with the consent and ajiproval of the Secretary of the Interior and
not otherwise. Subleases, transfers, or assignments, when so approved, shall
be subject to the terms and conditions of the original leases and the regulations
tmder which such leases were approved as well as to such additional re(piire-
ments as the Secretary of the Interior may prescribe. The sublessee, trans-
feree, or assignee shall furnish with his sublease, transfer, or assignment a
satisfactory bond as hereinbefore prescribed in connection with leases.
Any attempt to sulilease, transfer, or assign an approved lease or any interest
therein without the consent and approval of the Secretary of the Interior shall
;j^462 OSAGE RESERVATION. *
be absolutely void and shall subject the original lease to cancellation in the
discretion of such Secretary.
SURRENDER AND CANCELLATION.
4^ When a lessee makes application for the cancellation of a lease in whole
orfn part an royaltiS or rentals due up to and including the ^^'^te of the appli-
cation for cancellation must be paid, and that part of the lease delivered the
lesse? shin be surrendered before such application will be considered. In U^
PvPnt a lease is surreiidered for cancellation, in whole or in part, after a new
lease yeafhas been Intend upon, the lessee and his surety shall be liable for
the aCncedreSs required to be paid under the lease for that year, and no
part of such rentals which may have been paid shall be refunded.
GENERAL.
46. All lessees shall maintain offices or have representatives at Pawhuska, in
^^4Tl^sS; sublessees, and assignees must submit to the officer in charge on
January first (1) of each year, and at such other times as may be required by
SrSeca-etai-y of the Interior, a statement containing the information called for
in par"4aphs " a '• and "f" of section eight (8) of these regulations and also
sLwim^any chaiiges in officers or changes in or additions to stockholders. Ac
any t me Sidividual stockholders may be required to show to the satisfaction
of the Seci-ptary of the Interior in what companies or with what persons or
firms thev are interested in oil or gas mining leases on the Osage Reservation
and whether they hold such stock or interests for themselves or in trust.
48 Lessees shall allow the agents and representatives of the lessor, or any
authorized representative of the Interior Department, to enter, from time to
Yme upo and into all parts of the leased premises for the purposes of mspeo-
t^'and shall further agree to keep a full and correct account of all operations
and m.ke reports thereof, as hea-ein required, and their books and records
siowhig manner of operations and persons interested shall be open at --i" times
for the examination of such officers of the department as shall be instructed by
the Secretary of the Interior to make such examinations.
49 All persons or corporations drilling wells under approved leases, subleases,
or assignments shall keep a true and correct record of each well including the
log of same, and shnll furnish to the officer in charge a copy of/"cli,log not
ater than 15 days after such well has been drilled, duly certified to under oath
by the operator or his representative, and the said operator or his representative
shall furnish a statement under oath as to whether the rig timbers were pro-
cured on the Osage Reservation; and if so, state the nanie of the aUottee or
other person from whom the said rig timbers were purchased and f ^/^^^^ f,^.f}^f;
nish any other information the officer in charge may desire relative to the dulling
of said'well or the procurement of timber used in connection with such opera-
*'T6 Wherever notice is provided for in these regulations it shall be sufficient
if notice has been mailed to the last-known place of address of the party and
time shall begin to run with the day next ensuing after the mailing or from
the date of delivery of personal notice; but where the party is outside the btate
of Oklahoma the 'officer in charge may. in his discretion, increase the time
^ sT^^essees are required, when so requested, to file a plat of their leases show-
ing exact locations of all producing oil or gas wells, dry holes, proposed loca-
tions' tanks, power houses, pumping stations, etc. Such plats should also show
locations of dry or producing wells upon the adjoining tracts, so far as known
to tlio Igssgg
50 The Osage Nation shall have the right to the free use of gas for all school
and other buildings belonging to the Osage Nation from any well or wells that
may be discovered: Provided. That no expense shall be incurred by the lessee
in piping gas for such puri)Oses, and the lessee shall not be required to pay
royalty on snch gas. . .
53 All gas discovered and produced under any lease made in accordance witn
these regulations shall be utilized within the limits of Osage County, except
witii the consent of the Osage National Council, approved by the Secretary of
the Interior.
OSAGE RESERVATION. 1463
54. Except in cases of emergency which shall not exceed ten (10) days, not
more than sixty per cent (60%) of the capacity of any gas well shall be utilized.
55. Bids, leases, and other papers must be upon forms prepared by the depart-
ment, and the superintendent of the Osage Indian School, Pawhuska, Okla., will
furnish prospective lessees with such forms at a cost of one dollar ($1) per
set. Copies of such forms are printed herewith.
Form A. Bid and application for oil and gas lease, including financial showing.
Form B. Oil and gas leases.
Form C. Bond.
Form D. Affidavit of lessee and proof of bonus.
Form E. xVuthority of officers to execute papers.
Form F. Assignment.
56. On the failure of any lessee, sublessee, or assignee to comply with any
regulation or any obligation in the lease, sublease, or assignment, the Secretary
of the Interior may cancel and annul such lease without resorting to the courts
and without any further proceeding: Provided, That the party or parties
charged with such violation shall be first given not less than thirty (30) days'
notice to show cause why such lease should not be canceled and annulled or
other order made with reference thereto.
These regulations are subject to change or alteration at any time by the
Secretary of the Interior.
Department of the Inteeiok,
Office of Indian Ajtairs.
The foregoing regulations are respectfully submitted to the Secretary of the
Interior with the recommendation that they be approved.
F. H. Abbott,
Assistant Commissioner of Indian Affairs.
Department of the Interior, July 3, 1912.
Approved. *
Samuel Adams,
First Assistant Secretary.
Form s.
Form A. — Bid and application for oil and gas mining lease. Osage Reservation.
, 191—.
The Secretary of the Interior
(Through United States Indian Superintendent),
Osage Indian Agency, Paivhuska, Okla.
The undersigned, hereinafter called the applicant, hereby offers a bonus of
$ per acre for a lease for oil and gas mining purposes on designated sub-
divisions of tract — of Osage Indian lands described as: Subdivision ,
T. — X., II. — E., as advertised under date of , 191 — . There is
inclosed certified check for $ , the same being 10 per cent of the amount
of bonus offered plus the advance annual rental of 15 cents per acre for the
first year. In event of the acceptance of this bid the applicant hereby agrees to
be bound by the conditions and requii-ements set forth in the regulations pre-
scribed for the leasing of said lauds, and that on failure of the applicant so to
do the amount herewith shall be forfeited to the Osage Nation of Indians, and
such forfeiture shall not be a waiver of any right of action the Osage Tribe
may have. It is further agreed by the applicant that this bid, if accepted, shall
be considered a part of the lease which shall be executed in accordance here-
with.
The applicant guarantees to pay royalty on a minimum price of GO cents per
barrel on all oil produced.
Remarks : .
The applicant solemnly swears that the lease, for which bid and application is
hereby made, is to be taken in good faith in the interest and for the exclusive
benefit of the applicant, and not for speculation or transfer, or as agent for, or
in the interest of or for the benefit of any other person, firm, corporation, or
1464 OSAGE EESERVATION.
association ; tliat no otlier person, firm, corporation, or association has any
interest, present or prospective, directly or indirectly, therein, and that there is
no understanding or agreement, expressed or implied, by which the land leased,
or any interest in or under the lease by working or drilling contract or otherwise,
is to be used, sublet, assigned, or transferred, without the consent of the Secre-
tarj' of the Interior first obtained, but that it is to be taken for the purpose of
operation and development under the direction, supervision, and control of the
applicant, except as herein stated.
Affiant solemnly SAvears that the applicant is not interested, either directly or
indirectly, in oil and gas mining leases in that portion of the Osage Reservation
to be leased under regulations of July 3, 1912, except with the following-named
persons, firms, corporations, or associations, and that the aggregate of all these
interests, together with the leases held by the applicant alone, and that applied
for herein, will not exceed 25,000 acres :
(Name.) (Post-offlce address.)
The applicant hereby states that his general business experience for the past
five years has been as follows : .
The applicant's financial condition at this time is .
The applicant's resources are as follows : -, and he has available at
least $ for the development of the land for which this application is made.
The applicant, a corporation, hereby shows that at this time it h;)s $ —
paid-up capital and $ in its treasury available for oil and gas operations.
(Note a.)
It is hereby agreed tliat on the issue, transfer, or cancellation of stock of cor-
porations, or changes in officers, prompt reports will be made thereof as required
by the regulations.
The books and accounts of the applicant covering the business to be carried
on under the lease, if approved, will be kept at , in the custody of .
(References, Note b.) (Post-offlce address.)
Executed this day of . 19 — . at . .
Before me, a notary public in .-aid for the county of — , State of .
persouiilly appeared , who, being first duly sworn according to
law, deposes and says that the foregoing bid and application was signed by
proper authority in good fjiith for the purposes therein stated, and that the
statements made therein are true as he verily believes.
[seal.] Xotfirt/ Piihlic.
My conunission expires .
fa) Corporations shall furnish with their first application the additional financial show-
ing required b.v the regulations.
(b) Bank references are preferred.
FouM B. — 0/7 mill gas mining lease. Osage Reserrafion. Ol-hihomd.
Tiiis indenture of lease made and entered into, in quadruiilicate, on this
day of , A. D. 19 — , by and between the Osage Tribe of InJians, by
, its principal chief, under .-uithority conferred by the Osjige
Tribal Council, of the State of Oklahoma, party of the first part, hereinafter
designated as lessor, and of , party of the second
part, liereinafter designated as lessee — , under and in pursuance of the pro-
visions of section 8 of the act of Congress approved June 28, 1906 (34 Stat.. 539,
543), witnesseth :
1. The lessor, tVir ;;nd in consideration of one dollar, the receipt whereof is
acknowledged, and of the royaltie.s. covenants, stipulations, and conditions here-
inafter contjuned. and hert^liy ;igreed to be paid. ol)scrveil. and performed by
the lessee — , does hereby demise, grant, lease, and let unto the lessee — , for the
term of ten years from the date of the .•i])i)roval hereof by the Secretary of the
Interior, and as long thereafter as oil or gas is found in paying quantities, pro-
vided, however, that the term of this lease shall not extend I)eyond April 8.
1931, all the oil deposits and natural gas in or under the following designated
subdivisions of l.md, of tract . lying and l)eing witliin the Osage Keserv;i-
OSAGE RESERVATION. 1465
tion, Osage County. State of Okhiboma, dt-scribecl as: Subdivision
, T. — N., R. — B. (insert desc-riittion in full in each case), of the Indian
meridian, and contaiuinfi in the a^sregate acres, more or less, with the
exclusive right to prosjject for, extract, pipe, store, and remove oil and natural
gas, and to occui).v a.ud use so much only of the surface of said land as may he
reasonably necessary to carry on the work of prospecting for, extr.acting. piping,
storing, and removing such oil and natunil gas; also the right to obtain from
wells or other sources on said land, by means of pipe lines or otherwise, a sufB-
cieut supi)ly of water to carry on said operations, and also the right to use. free
of cost, oil and natural gas as light and fuel so far as necessary to the develop-
ment and operation of said property.
2. The lessee — hereby agree — to pay or cause to be paid to the superin-
tendent of the Osage Indian School, at Pawhuska, Okla., for the lessor, as
royalty. I63 per cent of the gross i)roceeds of all crude oil extracted from the
said laud, such royalty to be paid in money based on the actual market value,
unless the Osage National Council, with the approval of the Secretary of the
Interior, shall elect to take the royalty in oil. payment to be made at the time
of sale or removal of the oil. It is understood and agreed, however, that should
the actual market value of such oil be less than 60 cents per barrel, the lessee —
guarantee — to pay royalty based on the minimum price of 60 ceuts per standard
barrel. And the lessee — agree — to pay as royalty on each gas-producing well
utilized otherwise than as provided herein Kvj per cent of the market value of
the gas at the well : Provided. That should either the Osage National Council
or the Secretary of the Interior be of the opinion that the price at which the
lessee — sell — such gas is not the true mjirket value at the well, the Se^-retary
of the Interior shall, after notice and hearing, determine the market value and
the lessee — shall account to the lessor at the rate fixed by the Secretary of the
Interior as afore.said. The lessee shall establi-sh meters at expense to
measure the supply of gas received from the leased premises, and the account-
ing shall be on the basis of the supply as shown by such meter statements. It
is understood and agreed by the parties hereto that the .standard rock pressure
for the sale of gas from this lease shall be two pounds. The Osage Nation shall
have the right to the free use of gas for school and public buildings of the
Osage Nation from any well or wells that may be discovered on the leased
lands : Provided, That no expense shall be incurred by the lessee — in piping
gas for such purposes, and the lessee — shall not be required to pay roya.lty on
such gas. Failure on the part of the lessee — to use a gas-producing well, which
can not profitably be utilized at the rate herein prescribed, shall not work a for-
feiture of this lease so far as the same relates to mining oil, but if the lessee —
desires to retain gas-producing rights or privileges, lessee — shall pay a rental of
one hundred dollars per annum in advance on each gas-producing well, the gas
from which is not marketed or not utilized otherwise than for operations under
this lease, and the same shall be credited on gas royalties due and payable, If,
during the year for which advance gas royalties are paid lessee — elects to
market the gas.
3. The lessee — shall pay to the officer in charge, as advance annual rental on
this lease, fifteen ceuts per acre in advance for the first year; thirty ceuts per
acre in advance for the second year ; fifty cents per acre in advance for the
third year ; and one dollar per acre per annum, in advance, for the fourth and
each succeeding year thereaftei", it being understood and agreed that the said
sums of money so paid during any year in which royalties on production are
payable, shall be a credit on the stipulated royalties due from the lessee — if
such royalties on production exceed the advance annual rental for that year.
4. The lessee — covenant — and agree — to commence to drill at least one well
on every leased designated subdivision within ninety days and to complete such
well or wells within one year from the date of the approval of this lease by the
Secretary of the Interior. After the drilling of a well is commenced the drill-
ing operation shall be conducted with due and reasonable diligence until such a
well is completed or is drilled to such depth as the oil inspector of the Osage
Nation shall deem rea.sonable. In addition ot forfeiture in the sole discretion
of the Secretary of the Interior of the lease for failure to drill and complete the
required test well or test wells on each and every designated subdivision as afore-
said, within the time provided by this lease and the regulations relating thereto,
the lessee — and surety, by reason of the impossibility of accurately deter-
mining the amount of damages which will be occasioned the Osage Nation by
such default, shall pay to the superintendent of the Osage school for the use
1466 OSAGE RESERVATION.
and benefit of the lessor as and for liquidated damages, and not as a penalty,
the sum of two thousand dollars ($2,000) for each and every test well required
to be drilled and not completed within one year from the date of approval of
this lease by the Secretary of the Interior and the execution of this lease shall
be conclusive evidence of the assent of lessor and lessee to liquidated damages
in the sum of two thousand dollars ($2,000) per well for defaults within the
time limit named herein. The lessee — , after having drilled and completed the
test wells or wells required to be drilled and completed, may release and sur-
render all the land covered by the lease, or any designated subdivision thereof,
or such section of six hundred forty acres of any designated subdivision
as he may elect on the payment of all rentals and royalties due on the date of
such surrender, as .provided in paragraph eight of this lease. Should the
lessee— elect to hold the lease or any designated subdivision thereof exceeding
in area 2,560 acres after the period of one year allowed for the drilling of one
test well on each designated subdivision has expired, — he — shall drill and
complete at least one additional test well on each designated subdivision ex-
ceeding in area 2,560 acres within one year from and after the dr.te of expira-
tion of the time allowed for the drilling and completion of the first test well, or
in default thereof, shall pay to the superintendent of the Osage Indian School
for the use and benefit of the Osage Nation by reason of the impossibility of
determining the amount of damage which will be occasioned to said nation on
account of failure to drill such second test well as aforesaid the sum of two
thousand dollars ($2,000), as and for liquidated damages and not as a penalty,
for each second test well for which the lessee — may be in default, in addition
to any and all other payments required by the regulations and the terms of this
lease. Failure on the part of the lessee — to comply strictly with the provisions
of this paragraph shall constitute a violation of one of the substantial terms
and conditions of this lease and shall operate as a forfeiture of the lessee —
rights and subject the lease to cancellation in the discretion of the Secretary of
the Interior, but such forfeiture and cancellation shall not operate to relieve
or release the lessee — and surety from the payment of liquidated damages as
herein provided for even though the Secretary of the Interior shall, in his dis-
cretion, continue the lease in force and effect.
5. The lessee — may use so much of the surface of the land as may be reason-
ably necessary for prospecting and mining operations required by this lease and
shall also have the right of way over and across such land to any point of
prospecting or mining operations, but such use of the surface shall be per-
missible only under the condition of least injury and inconvenience to the
allottee and owner of the land. Lessee, before commencing and during such
operations shall pay all reasonable damages for the use of such surface of the
land and to any growing crops thereon, or to any improvements on such land
or any damages that during the life of this lease shall be occasioned in any
manner whatsoever to the allottee or his successor in interest or as.signee, or to
the lessee of the surface of the land by the use of the surface, such damages to
be apportioned among the parties interested in the surface, whether as owners,
lessees, or otherwise, as such parties may mutually agree or as their interests
may appear : Provklcd, That when the damages can not be agreed upon between
the parties in interest, the amount of such damage shall be determined in ac-
cordance with the regulations approved by the Secretary of the Interior.
6. The lessee shall carry on development and operations in a workmanlike
manner, commit no waste on the said land, suffer none to be committed upon
the portion in occupancy or use, take good care of the same, and
promptly surrender and return the premises upon the termination of this lease
to whomsoever shall be lawfully entitled thereto, unavoidable casualties ex-
cepted; shall not remove therefrom any buildings or permanent improvements
erected thereon during the said term by the said lessee-, but said buildings
and improvements shall remain a part of said laud and become the property
of the owner of the surface of the land, excepting the tools, derricks, boilers,
boiler houses, pipe lines, pumping and drilling outfits, tanks, engines and
machinery, and the casing of all dry or exhausted wells, which shall remain
the property of the lessee-, and may be removed at any time within sixty
days after the termination of the lease by forfeiture or otherwise, provided
the payments agreed upon by this lease and the regulations api)licable thereto
have been made to the lessor, but not otlierwise ; shall not i)erniit any nuisance to
be maintained on the premises under lessee-, control, nor allow any intoxicating
liquors to be sold or given away for any purposes on such premises ; shall not
use such premises for any other purpose than those authorized in this lease:
and before abandoning any well shall securely plug the same, so as effectually
OSAGE RESEEVATION". 1467
to shut off all water from the oil-bearing stratum, as provided iu the regula-
tions prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior.
7. The lessee- shall keep an accurate account of all oil and gas mining op-
erations, showing the sales, prices, dates, purchasers, and the whole amount
of oil mined or removed and the quantity of gas sold and the gross receipts
derived therefrom, and shall make sworn reports thereof as required by the
regulations, and all sums due as royalty, advance rental, liquidated or surface
damages shall be a lien on all implements, tools, movable machinery, and all
other personal chattels used in operating said property, and upon all of the
unsold oil obtained from the land herein leased, as security for payment of
said sums.
8. The lessee- may at any time, bj' paying to the Indian superintendent all
amounts then due as provided herein and the further sum of $1, surrender all
or any part of the land covered by this lease and have the lease canceled as
to the land surrendered and be relieved from all further obligations and liabili-
ties thereunder as to the part surrendered: Provided, That iu the event the
lease is surrendered for cancellation in whole or in part after a new lease
year has been entered upon, the lessee- and the surety shall be held liable for
the advance rentals required to be paid for that year, and no part of such
rentals which may have been paid shall be refunded.
9 This lease shall be subject to the regulations of the Secretary of the In-
terior, now or hereafter in force, relative to such leases, all of which regula-
tions are made a part and condition of this leas6 : Provided, That no regula-
tions made after the approval of this lease, affecting either the payments or
damages thereunder, shall operate to affect the terms and conditions of this
lease.
10. Upon the violation of any of the terms and conditions of this lease, the
Secretary of the Interior shall have the right at any time after thirty (30)
days' notice to the lessee-, specifying the terms or conditions violated, to de-
clare this lease null and void.
11. Before this lease shall be in force and effect the lessee- shall furnish a
bond with responsible surety to the satisfaction of the Secretary of the In-
terior, conditioned for the performance of this lease, which bond shall be
deposited and remain on file in the Indian Office.
12. Assignment of this lease or any interest therein may be made with the
approval of the Secretary of the Interior and not otherwise.
13. Each and every clause and covenant of this indenture shall extend to
the heirs, executors, administrators, successors, and lawful assigns of the
parties hereto.
In witness whereof the said parties have hereunto subscribed their names
and affixed their seals on the day and year first above mentioned.
Two witnesses to execution by lessor :
, . [SE.\X.]
Post office, — .
Attest .
Post office, .
Two witnesses to execution by lessees :
, . [SE.VL.]
Post office, .
Attest : .
Post office,
ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF PRINCIPAL CHIEF.
State of — , County of , ss:
Before me, , on this day of , 19 — , personally
appeared , to me known to be the principal chief of the
Osage Nation, and the identical person who executed the within and foregoing
lease, and acknowledged to me that he executed the same as his voluntary
act and deed on behalf of the Osage Nation and in accordance with the
authority given him by the Osiige National Council.
(Official title.)
1468 OSAGE KESERVATION.
ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF INDIVIDUAL.
State of , County of , ss:
Before me, a notary public, in and for said county and State, on this —
day of -, 19 — -, personally appeared , to rue known to be
the identical person- who executed the within and foregoing lease, and ac-
knowledged to me that executed the same as free and voluntary
act and deed for the uses and purposes therein set forth.
My commission expires
Notary Pahlic.
ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF CORPORATION.
State of , County of , ss:
On this day of , A. D. 19 — , before me, a within and
for the and , aforesaid, personally appeared and
, to me personally known, who. being by me duly sworn, did each
say that ■ is the president and is the •
secretary of , a corporation, and that the seal affixed to the foregoing
and annexed instrument is the corporate seal of said corporation, and that said
instrument was signed and sealed in behalf of said corporation by authority
of its board of directors; and said — and duly ac-
knowledged that they each had in their said official capacities executed the
foregoing instrument as the act and deed of the said company for the considera-
tion and purposes therein mentioned and set forth.
Witness my hand and official seal this day of , 19 — .
My commission expires .
Department of the Interior,
U. S. Indian Service,
Osage Agency,
Pmvhuslca, Okla., ■, 19 — ■.
The within lease is forwarded to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs with
recommendation that it be . See my report of even date.
(Official title.)
Office of Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. C, , 19—
Respectfully submitted to the Secretary of the Interior with recommenda-
tion that it be .
The within lease is
Commissioner.
Washington, D. C, , 19 — .
Secretary of the Interior.
Filed for record this day of , 19 — , at — o'clock — m.
By
Form C. — Bond.
(To accompany leases for oil and sas mining purposes, Osage Reservation,
Okla.)
Know all men by these presents that -^ , of . as principal,
and , of , as suret — . are held and firmly bound unto the
United States of America in the sum of dollars, lawful money of the I
United States, for the payment of which, well and truly to be made, we bind
,^
OSAGE EESEEVATION. 1469
ourselves, and each of us, our and each of our heirs, successors, executors, or
administrators, jointly and severally, firmly by these presents.
Sealed with our seals and dated this day of — , 19 — .
The condition of this obligation is such that:
Whereas the above-bounden , as principal — . entered into a
certain indenture of lease, dated — . 19 — . with the Osage Tribe of Indians,
for the lease of certain lands described as:
Subdivision — . T. — X.. R. — E. (Insert description in full in each
case.) of the Indian meridian, and located in tract in the Osage Reserva-
tion. Okla., for oil and gas mining purposes for the period of 10 years from the
date of approval thereof by the Secretary of the Interior and as long thereafter
as oil and gas are found in paying quantities on said land : Provided. That in
no event should the term of said lease extend beyond April S. 19.'>1 ; and
Whereas the above-bounden did covenant and agree in said
lease to pay advance rentals annually at the rate of fifteen cents per acre for
the first year, thirty cents ner acre for the second year, fifty cents per acre for
the third year, and one dollar per acre per annum for the fourth and each suc-
ceeding year durins: the life of said lease, and to pay royalties on production
at the rate of sixteen and two-thirds per cent of the gross proceeds of all oil
produced from the leased premises based on the actual market value, but not
in any event to be less than sixty cents per standard barrel and sixteen and
two-thirds per cent of the market value at the well of all gas sold or utilized
other than for operations under the lease: and
Whereas the above-bounden did covenant and agree in said
lease to drill and complete one test well on each designated subdivision covered
by said lease within one year from the date of approval of the lease by the
Secretary of the Interior, or in default thereof, to pay to the Osage Xation as
liquidated damages and not as a penalty the sum of two thousand dollars
(S2.000) for each and every test well not drilled and completed within one year
after the date of the approval of the lease as aforesaid and the same sum for
failure to drill a second test well within two years on any retained subdivision
exceeding 2.560 acres in extent: and
Whereas the above-bonnden did coA-enant to pay all reasonable
damages for the use of the surface of the land and to any improvements and
growing crops thereon in accordance ^nth the terms of said lease and the
regulations prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior:
Now. therefore, if the above-bounden shall faithfully carry out and
observe all the obligations assumed in said indenture of lease by . shall
pay all rentals and royalties as the same may become due. shall pay liquidated
damages on failure to drill the test well or test wells as required by said lease,
shall pay all damage to the surface of the land or to any growing crops or im-
provements thereon causetl by prospecting and mining operations, and shall
observe all the laws of the United States, and regulations made, or which shall
be made thereunder, for the government of trade and intercourse with Indian
tribes, and all the rules and regulations that have been, or may be lawfully
prescribed by the Secretary of the Intenor relative to leases on lands in the
Osage Reservation. Oklahoma, then this obligation shall be null and void;
otherwise to remain in full force and effect.
Signed and sealed in the presence of —
Witnesses : *
Post office rsEAL.l
Post office -
Post office rsEAL.l
Post office
Pc St office r SF AL. 1
Post office
1 Two witnesses to all signatures.
35601— PT 12—14 6
1470 OSAGE RESERVATION.
Form D.— Affidavit of lessee, proof of houiis. and no dcvelofmwnt.
<Must in all cases be properly executed and accompany lease when filed.)
State of , County of , .ss-;
I, of . beins first duly sworu aceordiu;; to law, state
upon oath that I am the lessee or the duly authorized agent of the lessee in a
lease between the Osa^e Tribe of Indians and . for mining
purposes covering tlie following described land in the Osage Ileservation, Okla-
homa : tliat I know of my own personal knowledge that the lessee is
not engaged in the transportation of oil except as incidental to any refining or
production of oil by lessee; that the only amount to be paid for the execution
of said lease, directly or indirectly, by the lessee to . or any one
for him. is $ , of which .$ has been paid to . and
$ payable on ; that tliere liave been no mining operations of any
kind whatsoever by tlie lessee or any one for him ui)on the ■)remises included
in the above-described lease; and that said lease will l)e com[)leted under the
regulations of tlie Secretary of the Interior without unnecessary delay.
Sworn and subscribed to before me tliis day of , It) — .
[L. s.] ' .
My commission expiies
Notari) Piihlu
CERTIFICATE OF INDIAN SERVICE OFFICER.
I, , hereby certify tliat the above statement is true and correct;
that I have received $ from as bonus consideration for the
execution of said lease, whicli amount lias been taken up in my official accounts
for the quarter, fiscal year 19 — . and that there is still due on said bonus
consideration $ payable on , which I will take up in my otficial
accounts when received.
(Official title.)
Amendment to Osnge leasing regulations.
Section I.'} of the i-egulations approved .July 3, 1912, to govern the leasing
of lands in the Osage lieservation, Okla.. for oil and gas mining purposes, is
hereby amended to read as follows:
'* 13. Leases or assignments of leases to any individual, firm, or corporation
engaged in the business of transporting oil or gas will be approved only with
the understanding and provision that no rights, claims, or equities, as against
future action by or under authority of Congress, respecting oil or gas pipe line
companies, shall be predicated upon such approval, which provision shall be
stated ill the instrument or in the approval tliereof.
" Lessees or assignees shall furnish with each lease or a.'^signment an affidavit
on Form D, which shall state specifically whether he, it, or they are engaged in
the business of trans] lorting oil. and what, if any. considera.tion has been paid
by such lessee or on liis behalf, and to whom, for the execution of the lease."
Form D — Affidavit of lessee or assignee, proof of bonus, and no development —
is hereby amended so as to read :
Htate of , County of , ss:
I, , of , being first duly sworn according to l.-iw. state upon oath
that I am the lessee (or assignee) or the duly authorized agent of the lessee
in (or assignee of) a lease between the (!)sage Tribe of Indians and , for
oil and gas mining purposes covering the following described land in the Osage
Reservation, Oklahoma : , that I know of my own personal
knowledge that the is lessee (or assignee) . .
engaged in the tr:ins]iortation of oil; that the only amount to be paid for the
execution of sai<l lease, directly or indirectly, by the lessee to , or anyone
for him, is $ , of which .$ has been paid to and .$
payable on : tliat there have l)een no mining ojierations of any kind
whatsoever by the lessee or anyone for him upon the premises included iu
the above-described lease; and that the said lease will be completed under the
regulations of the Secretary of the Interior without unnecessary delay.
Sworn and subscribeil to before me this day of , 19 — .
|L. S.I • ,
Notary Public.
My commission expires .
OSAGE RESERVATION, 1471
CERTIFICATE OF INDIAN SERVICE OFFICER.
I. , hereby certify that the above statement is true and correct;
that I have received $ from as bonus consideration for the execu-
tion of said lease, which amount has been taken up in my olHcial accounts for
the quarter, tiscal year 19 — , and that there is still due on said Ixmus
consideration $ payable on , which 1 will take up in my official
accounts when received.
(Official title.)
Note. — When this form is furnished with an assignment, strike out part not
applicable to assignment.
F. H. Abbott,
Acting Commissioner.
Approvetl, January 9, 1913.
Samuel Adams.
First Assistant Secretary.
Form E. — Evidence shoicing authority of officers to execute leases, bonds, and
accompanying papers.
Whereas is the duly elected, qualified, and acting presi-
dent of , a coriioration duly organized and existing under the laws
of , and
Whereas is the duly elected, qualified, and acting secre-
tary of said corporation, and
Whereas both the said persons were l>resident and secretary,
respectively, on the day of . 19 — , at which time tliey executed an
oil and gas mining lease with the Osage Tribe of Indians covering certain lands
in tlie Osage Reservation, Okla.
Now. therefore. I. the undersigned of said corporation, do solemnly
swear that the mining lease mentioned above was duly and regularly entered
into by the officers of said corporation named, by and under the authority of
the board of directors of said corporation, and in accordance with the by-laws
thereof; and further that said officers were duly authorized and empowered on
behalf of the corporation named to execute any and all bonds, applications, or
other papers required in connection with said mining lease.
I further certify that the action of said officers in executing the papers men-
tioned on behalf of said corporation, binds said coriioration to a full and com-
plete performance of any and all obligations contained therein.
Dated at . this day of , 19—.
[corporate seal.] .
Subscribed and sworn to before me this day of . 19 — .
My commission expires
Notary Public.
Note. — To be executed by secretary or president — secretary in all cases where
possible — and in every case to have corporate seal affixed.
Form F. — Assignment of oil and gas mining lease.
[Must be executed In quadruplicate.]
Whereas the Secretary of the Interior has heretofore apiiroved an oil and
gas mining lease, dated , 19 — , entered into by and between the Osage
tribe of Indians, lessor, and . lessee, covering the following-
described land in the Osage Reservation. Oklahoma : .
Now. therefore, for and in considei-ntion of tlie sum of dollars
($ ). the receipt of which is hereby acknowledged, the said ,
the lessee in the above-described lease, liereby bargains, sells, transfers, assigns,
and conveys right, title, and interest of the lessee in and to said lease,
subject to the ai)proval of the Secretary of the Inti-rior. to .
In witness whereof the said lessee has hereunto set — hand and seal this
day of , 19—.
1472 OSAGE RESERVATION.
ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF INDIVIDUALS.
State of , County of
Be it remember that on this day came before me, the undersigued
within and for the , duly commissioned and acting as
such , to me personally well known, and stated that executed the
foregoing and annexed instrument for the consideration and purposes therein
mentioned and set forth ; and I do hereby so certify.
Witness my hand and seal as such on this day of — — — . 19 — .
My commission expires .
acknowledgment of CORPORATION.
State of , County of , ss:
On this day of , A. D. 19 — , before me, a within and for the
and aforesaid, personally appeared — — ■ — - and ,
to me personally known, who, being by me duly sworn, did each say that
is the president and is the secretary of ,
a corporation, and that the seal affixed to the foregoing and annexed instrument
is the corporate seal of said corporation, and that said instrument was signed
and sealed in behalf of said corporation by authority of its board of directors;
and said and duly acknowledged that they each
had in their said official capacities executed the foregoing instrument as the
act and deed of the said company for the consideration and purposes therein
mentioned and set forth.
Witness my hand and official seal this day of , 19 — .
My commission expires
ACCEPTANCE BY ASSIGNEE.
The assignee in the above and foregoing assignment, made subject to the
approval of the Secretary of the Interior, hereby accepts such assignment and
agrees to fulfill all the obligations, conditions, and stipulations in said de-
scribed indenture of lease, when assigned, and the rules and regulations of the
Secretary of the Interior, so far as applicable thereto, and to furnish proper
bond guaranteeing a faithful compliance with said lease and this agreement.
In witness whereof the said assignee has hereunto set — hand and seal
this day of , 19 — .
CONSENT OF SURETY.
The of . surety for on the bond accompanying
the lease above described, hereby consents to the assignment and transfer of
said lease as above made .
Dated at this day of , 19 — .
Department of the Interior,
» WasMngton, D. C, , 19 — .
Approved.
Secretary.
Note. — If bond accompanying the original lease is to remain in full force and
effect, it must be specifically so stated in the consent of the surety company.
The consent of the surety company need only be executed on the original copy
of the assignment.
J
i^ic:k:^^:poo i3sr3Di.A.3srs
SERIAL ONE
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
JOINT COMMISSION OF THE
CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES
SIXTY -THIRD CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
TO
INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS
APRIL 17 AND 27, 1914
PART 13
Printed for the use of the Joint Commission
WASHINGTON
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
1914
Congress of the United States.
JOINT COMMISSION TO INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS.
Bknatoks : Representatives :
JOE T. ROBINSON, Arkansas, Cliairman. JOHN H. STEPHENS, Texas.
HARRY LANE, Oregon. CHARLES D. CARTER, Oklahoma.
CHARLES E. TOWNSEND, Michigan. CHARLES H. BURKE. South Dakota.
R. B. Keating, Arkansas, Secretary.
Ross Williams, Arkansas, Clerk.
II
CONTENTS.
Testimony of : Page.
Ah-kis-kuck 1475
Wah-uah-ke-tlia 1481
Written statement submitted . 1482
Joseph Murdock 1484
Martin J. Bentley 1489
111
KICKAPOO INDIANS.
FRIDAY, APRIL 17, 1914.
Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs,
Washiiigton^ D. 0.
The joint commission met in room 128, Senate Office Building, at
4 o'clock p. m.
Present: Senators Robinson (chairman), Lane, and Townsend;
Representatives Stephens, Carter, and Burke.
The Charman. Gentlemen, this meeting of the commission is con-
vened to hear the statements of certain Indians purporting to repre-
sent the Kickapoo, including Joseph Murdock, Ah-kis-kuck, and
Wah-nah-ke-tha.
On June 21, 1906, Congi-ess passed an act removing all restrictions
on allotments of the Kickapoo Indians in the following language:
All restrictions as to sale and incumbrance of all lands, inherited and other-
wise, of all adult Kickapoo Indians, and of all Shawnee, Delaware, Caddo, and
Wichita Indians who have heretofore been, or are now, known as Indians of
said tribes, affiliating with said Kickapoo Indians now or hereafter nonresident
in the United States, who have been allotted land in Oklahoma or Indian Terri-
tory, are hereby removed : Provided, Tliat any such Indian allottee who is a
nonresident of the United States may lease his allotment without restriction
for a period not exceeding five years: Pi'oiHded further, That the parent or the
person »iext of kin having the care and custody of a minor allottee may lease
the allotment of said minor as herein provided, except that no such lease shall
extouil beyond the minority of said allottee. (.34 Stat., 36.3.)
April 30, 1908, an act was passed appropriating, among other
things, $215,000 for the settlement of all claims of the Kickapoo
Indians against the United States, to he paid in the manner directed
by the council. The language of that appropriation is as follows :
That there be, and hereby is, appropriated, out of any money in the Treasury
not otherwise appropriated, the sum of two hundred and fifteen thousand dol-
lars, for the fulfillment of certain treaty obligations to the INIexican Kickapoo
Indians for differences arising out of the stipulations of article four of the
treaty of June twenty-eighth, eighteen hundred and sixty-two, and for all
other differences growing out of any and all treaties and agreements hereto-
fore made between said Indians and the United States. Said sum of two
hundred and fifteen thousand dollars shall be paid by the Secretary of the
Treasury as authorized and directed by a majority of the members of said
Mexican Kickapoo Tribe in council assembled. Such council shall be com-
posed of a majority of those surviving members of said tribe, male and female,
tieretofore allotted in Oklahoma. The authorization above mentioned and the
proceedings of said council shall be attested by a clerk of the United States
District Court of the Territory of Arizona. Said sum shall be inunediiitely
available and the indorsement of the warrant issued in payment thereof shall
be deemed and shall be a receipt in full for all claims of every kind what-
soever of the said Mexican Kickapoo Indians against the United States. (35
Stat, 89.)
1473
1474 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
August 24, 1912, the following provision was also enacted :
The Secretary of the Treasury is hereby authorized to pay for the relief of
the Kickapoo Indians in Mexico the sum of fifteen thousand dollars, to be
expended in the payment of taxes, salary of farmers, maintenance and repairs
of irrigation ditches, indebtedness for supplies already furnished, court costs,
and obligations heretofore incurred in settlement of land titles, said sum to be
paid to the treasurer of a corporation to be known as the Kickapoo Community
of Mexico, to be organized under the laws of the State of Arizona ; the organi-
zation of said corporation shall be authorized by a majority of the members
of the said JMexican Kickapoo Indians now residing in the State of Sonora
in the Republic of Mexico, in council assembled.
That the Secretary of the Interior be, and he is hereby, authorized and
directed to cause to be sent to the First National Bank of Douglas, Arizona,
checks payable to the order of the individual Indian owners who are members
of the band of Mexican Kickapoo Indians now resident in the Republic of
Mexico, for and in the amount of all moneys known as lease money now on
deposit with or in any manner under the control of the agents and oflicers of
the Interior Department and all like money due or becoming due or collectible
liy them prior to the first day of January, nineteen hundred and fourteen, and
belonging to any of the said Mexican Kickapoo Indians.
Over the expenditure and disbursement of at least a portion of
those funds appropriated by the sections of the statutes which I have
read controversy has arisen. The contention is made that a part of
the funds has been misappropriated, and especially with reference to
the item of $15,000 that no part of that fund has been applied to the
purposes for which it was appropriated. In that connection a rep-
resentative of the Indian Eights Association has filed a letter, ad-
dressed to the chairman of th'is joint commission, which is as follows :
April 17, 1914.
Hon. Joe T. Robinson,
Chainnan Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs,
United States Senate.
Sir : It has been stated before the Committee on Indian Affairs of the Senate
that an amendment will be offered, perhaps to-day, to the pending Indian
appropriation act (H. R. 12579), which will affect the property or other inter-
ests of the Mexican Kickapoo Indians located in Oklahoma and the Republic of
Mexico. Messrs. LaFollette, Clapp, and Ashurst form a subcommittee to con-
sider this proposed amendment.
On the 15th instant I filed with the chairman of the Committee on Indian
Affairs of the Senate a request that before action was taken by the committee
on legislation affecting the interests of these Indians that the committee should
call upon the honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs to furnish that com-
mittee with a copy of records filed in his bureau relating to the former efforts
to exploit these Indians and more especially to secure a copy of a statement
made by Mr. Frank A. Thackery, formerly superintendent over the Mexican
Kickapoo Indians in Oklahoma, dated December 31, 1913, and also a memo-
randum dated January 14, 1914, w^hich set out in detail the various attempts
to despoil these Indians. I inclose herewith a copy of the letter which I
addressed to Chairman Ashurst as stated above.
The attempts to overreach the Mexican Kickapoo Indians in Oklahoma and
Republic of Mexico cover a period of more than 10 years last past. It has cost
the United States probably in excess of $50,000 to protect their rights, in
various forms of litigation in the criminal and civil courts of the landr
The Mexican Kickapoos are allotted very valuable lands in Oklahoma, and
these lands form the bone of contention between the grafters and the Govern-
ment.
The history of these efforts to defraud the Indians out of their heritage
should be known to your commission, and that without delay, because I fear
that another effort is brewing to exploit them in some form. The Indians in
question need the protecting arm of the Government, else they will soon become
paupers.
The official records show that Martin J, Bentley and W. S. Fields have been
connected in various ways in these efforts to despoil the Indians, and the
I
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1475
history of these transactions should be known by you. To these official
records I call your earnest attention. Supt. Thackery's reports already referred
to them with citations of spoliation of the Indians.
I also urge that you secure a copy of the hearings before the conference com-
mittee on the Indian appropriation act pending during the mouth of August,
3912, at which hearings Supt. Thackery and Martin J. Bentley were heard, and
their statements preserved by stenographic report as I understand it, which
ai'e filetl in the office of the Conimi.«!sioner of Indian Affairs.
I also request that you secure a copy of the letters on file in the office of the
Couunissioner of Indian Affairs addressed to me by Hon. John Embry, formerly
United States district attorney for Oklahoma, which bear dates of July IS
and 25 and August 5 and 7. 1912. These letters expose the transactions of
Martin J. Bentley and W. S. Fields in connection with the effort to despoil
these Indians in no uncertain terms. Mr. Embry had charge of a large portion
of the litigation which resulted in requiring the title to the allotted lands of
the Indians, which had been rendered uncertain by manipulations of grafting
lobbyists as stated therein.
Your attention is also called to the delegation of the Mexican Kickapoo In-
dians now in this city, and to statements they have made to the Commissioner
of Indian Affairs.
In further reference to the pending effort to secure legislation, I inclose a
copy of a letter from Miss Elizabeth Test, a missionary located among these
Indians in Oklahoma, which she has written to Mr. E. M. Wistar, who has
charge of the missionary work in Oklahoma for the Society of Friends. Miss
Test states that the Mexican Kickapoos are alarmed by reason of recent
alleged efforts on the part of Mr. Bentley and Mr. Fields to disturb them in
their holdings in Oklahoma and to create an unrest among them.
The statements herein are based upon records referred to. and which will no
doubt show a concerted effort to cause the Mexican Kickapoo Indians in Okla-
homa to remove to the Mexican Republic.
Soliciting your early attention to this matter. I am.
Very respectfully, yours.
S. M. Brosius.
Agent Indian Rights Association.
Joseph Murclock was duly swcirn by the chairman as interpreter.
Ah-kis-kuck and Wah-nah-ke-tha were duly sworn by the chair-
man through Interpreter ]\Iurdr,ck.
TESTIMONY OF AH-KIS-KUCK.
(All questions and answers through Interpreter Murdock.)
The Chair^vian. What is your name and where do you live?
Ah-kis-kuck. My name is Ah-kis-kuck: Musquiz. Mexico.
The Chairman. How did you happen to come to Washington,
and what did you come for?
Ah-kis-kuck. Because I don't think I am treated right.
The Chairman. Who is it that he thinks has not treated him right ?
Ah-kis-kuck. Field and Bentley.
The Chairman. Tell him to make such statement as he desires to
make concerning the matter.
Ah-kis-kuck. The money which the Government provided — we
don't get nothing out of it: we don't get the benefit ou( of it at all.
The Chairman. What is his position in his tribe?
Ah-kis-kuck. I am just looking after my tribe — for their inter-
ests.
The Chair3ian. Ask him if he was chosen with others as delegates
to come here to Washington and present this matter.
Ah-kis-kuck. We had our council, and they appointed me to come
up here.
1476 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
The Chairman. Who else was appointed?
Ah-kis-kuck. This man right here [indicating Wah-nah-ke-tha].
The Chairman. How many Kickapoos are there in Mexico ?
Ah-kis-kuck. It is over 30.
The Chairman. Over 30 Kickapoos. Is that all ?
Mr. MuRDocK. That is, allottees.
The Chairman. Ask him if he can tell what was done with that
$215,000 that was appropriated by Congress, to be divided among
the Kickapoos, under date of August 30, 1908.
Ah-kis-kuck. I don't know what was done with it at all.
The Chairman. Was it paid to the Kickapoo Indians, or any part
of it, that he knows of?
Ah-kis-kuck. That is all I know. Thev onlv got $50, each Indian,
out of that $215,000. ^ ^ >-> , ,
The Chairman. $50. Is that all you got ?
Ah-kis-kuck. Yes, sir; that is all I g<)t.
Senator Lane. How many were there at the time that the money
was to be divided among?
Mr. Bentley. If you will allow me to answer that, the number of
Indians that this money Avent to is less than 100. There are probably
200 Kickapoos, but under the law it went to less than 100. There was
never any payment made ; it was not so intended
The Chairsian. Do you know how many Kickapoo Indians there
are in Mexico all told ?
Ah-kis-kuck. No, sir.
The Chairman. Of course, you don't know how many of them
have received homes out of this appropriation of $215,000?"^
Ah-kis-kuck. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know what was done with that $215,000
that was appropriated last August for the benefit of the Kickapoo
Indians in Mexico?
Ah-kis-kuck. No, sir; I don't know anything about it.
The Chair^ian. Is there anything that anvone else Avishes to ask
him ?
Senator Townsend. I wanted to ask him somethino-. Have vou had
any land bought with this $215,000?
Ah-kis-kuck. No, sir; I don't kn«)w anything about it. They
never told me it was mine.
Senator Townsend. Do you own any land?
Ah-kis-kuck. Yes, sir; T have an old allotment. That is in Okla-
homa. ^
Senator Townsend. Where do you live now ? ■
Aii-Kis-KUCK. In old Mexico— Muzquiz. ™
Senator Townsend. What do you do?
Ah-kis-kuck. I just live there.
Senator Toavnsend. Whose land are you living on? '
Ah-kis-kuck. It belongs to old Mexico
Senator Toavnsend. Does it belong to the tribe of 30 Indians that
are down there?
Ah-kis-kuciv. The Kickapoos — they always lived there in old
Mexico.
Senator Toav.\send. What is dojie Avith the land you oAvn in Okla-
homa ?
Aii-Kis-KUCK. It is still tluMv in Oknihoina.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1477
Senator Townsend. Do 3^011 get any rent from it, or any money
from it?
Aii-Kis-KUCK. Yes, sir; I rent it.
Senator Townsend. What do you get for it?
Ah-kis-kuck. $200 a year.
Senator Townsend. Who pays you the money?
Aii-Kis-KUCK. The Indian agent.
Senator Townsend. What Indian agent?
Mr. MuRDOCK (after a pause). He don't know.
Mr. Burke. Where were you Avhen you got your money?
Ah-kis-kuck. Shawnee, ()kla.
Senator Townsend. Do you go to Shawnee, Okla.. to get your
money ?
Ah-kis-kuck. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. Does he go there every year?
Ah-kis-kuck. No, sir.
Senator Townsend. How does he get his money, then? That is
wliat I want to know — how he gets the money that he receives from
the rent of his land in Oklahoma.
Ah-kis-kuck. The Indian agent.
Senator Townsend. What Indian agent?
Ah-kis-kick. I can not think of his name.
Senator Townsend. Does he live in Oklahoma, the Indian agent
he is talking about?
Ah-kis-kuck. South of Shawnee.
Senator Lane. It is the Indian agent at Shawnee, whoever he is?
Senator Townsend. I want to ask you again, do you get this $200
every year?
Ah-kis-kuck. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. Do you go up there every year to get your
money ?
Ah-kis-kuck. No, sir.
Senator Townsend. How do you get your money when you don't
go up there?
Ah-kis-kuck. They just leave it there at tlie Indian agent's office.
Senator Townsend. Your money remains at the Indian office?
Ah-kis-kuck. Yes, sir; that is where it is.
Senator Townsend. Have you any money there now ?
Ah-kis-kuck. No, sir; I drew it all.
Senator Townsend. When did you draw it all ?
Ah-kis-kuck. That was last month.
Senator Townsend. Did you get all tlint was due you then?
Ah-kis-kuck. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. How much ?
Ah-kis-kuck. It was over $700.
The Chairman. That money that he had been getting there h.ad
nothing to do with this appropriation, had it?
Senator Townsend. Not particularly. There is an item in the bill
about the payment of rent that I was trying to get at. It was brought
up in committee.
Senator Lane. How many day's travel is it from where he lives in
Mexico to this place where the agent is — Shawnee? How long does
it take him to go there with a horse?
1478 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. MuRDOCK. From Shawnee to old Mexico? He goes bv rail
It would lake about a year and a half.
Representative Stephens. It is more than a thousand miles ^
Mr. BuKKE. It is 125 miles south of El Paso.
Senator Town«end. Now, the committee would like to know what
this man has to say about the conduct of his affairs or his tribe's
affairs, bearing on the charge that thev have been treated badlv as
he says, by Field and Bentley. Do vou claim that there is an v" rent
due you that you have not received ?
Ah-kis-kuck. That is what I come here for. I want to ask the
Commissioner of Indian Affairs to protect my own people. I want
Mr. Field or any other to have nothing to do with our land^ or
funds. That is what I come here for.
Senator Townsend. Has Field or Bentlev any monev or funds that
belong to you or to your tribe?
Ah-kis-kuck. It seems to me that thev want to control all our
lands and funds.
Senator Townsend. Do you claim that there is any money due von
that you have not received?
Ah-kis-kuck. Yes, sir.
Senator Tow^nsend. Is that all he said ?
Mr. MuKDOCK. He said, " Not myself. There is several others-
Indians."
Senator Townsend. Do Bentley and Field have monev that belongs
to you and the other members of the tribe ? ^ ~
Ah-kis-kuck. That is all we know. We know that Field or Bent-
ley controls all the money which they have.
The Chairman. Under the act of" April 30, 1908, the appropriation
of $215,000 was authorized to be paid by the Secretary of the Treasury
as authorized and directed by a majority of the members of the Mexi-
can Kickapoo Tribe in council assembled. Now, it appears that they
took some action, and under the action of that council a part of the
fund of $215,000 going to the Mexican Kickapoos— which appears in
some way to have been arrived at as a little less than $100,000 ; $08,000,
according to the memorandum which I have before me^was turned'
over to Mr. Bentley as trustee for the Mexican Kickapoos and to
Frank A. Thackery as trustee for the Oklahoma Kickapoos. The
part of the fund that was approved to go to the Mexican Kickapoos
was paid over to Mr. Bentley as trustee, and the part that was paid
over to the Oklahoma Kickapoos was delivered to Mr. Thackery as
trustee for the Oklahoma Kickapoos. Of course it does not apj^ear
from the record yet, but probably that action was based upon the
tribal action of the Kickapoo Indians. What they now appear to com-
plain of is that they have not received the benefit'of the fund that was
paid over to these trustees, and that Mr. Bentley as trustee has not
accounted for this fund or the $15,000 fund.
Senator Townsend. That is the wav I understand it, but I was
trying to get from this Indian anything that he knew about it.
Have you received any money from Mr. Bentlev or from anvhodv
else, outside of the rent for your ])lace in Oklahoma ?
Ah-kis-kuck. At the time when I was at Douglas. Ariz.. T only
got $50 from Mr. Field. That is all I ever got from him.
Senator Toavnsend. Did any of the other Indians doAvn there ^-et
any money from Mr. Field or Mr. Bentley ? "^
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1479
Ah-kis-kuck. That is all I know. They have got their lease
money out of their own allotments.
Senator Townsend. Was any of this money used to buy the land
where you and the rest of the tribe are living?
Ah-kis-kuck. No, sir; I don't know anything about that.
Senator Townsend. Does this man represent all of the Kickapoo
Indians in Mexico, or are there some down there who are in favor
of Bentley and Field ?
Ah-kis-kuck. Just those who was in at Muzquiz.
The Chairman. He just represents them?
Mr. MuRDOCK. Just represents those who are in at Muzquiz.
Senator Townsend. How many of them are there ?
Ah-kis-kuck. It is over 30 — allottees.
Senator Townsend. How many Kickapoos are there down there
that you do not represent ?
Ah-kis-kuck. I don't know how manj^ there are.
Representative Carter. Ask him if he lives in this village of Muz-
quiz, or does he live out in the country ?
Ah-kis-kuk. I live a way out west of Muzquiz, where the Kicka-
poo village is.
Representative Carter. How many miles west of Muzquiz ?
Ah-kis-kuck. That is about 18 miles.
Representative Carter. What do you do out there?
Ah-kis-kuck. Farming.
Representative Carter. Do j^ou farm ?
Ah-kis-kuck. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. Whose land do you farm ?
Ah-kis-kuck. The Kickapoos always lived there in old Mexico.
Representative Carter. Well, whom does the land belong to ?
Ah-kis-kuck. It belongs to the whole tribe of the Kickapoos.
The}'^ always lived there.
Representative Carter. All you do is to farm, is it? You do not
do anything else ?
Ah-kis-kuck. That is all.
Representative Carter. Is there any whisky out there (<n the reser-
vation— or mescal?
Ah-kis-kuck. There is lots of it in Muzquiz.
Representative Carter. None on the reservation ?
Ah-kis-kuck. No, sir.
Representative Carter. Ask him if they play any cards out on the
reservation.
Ah-kis-kuck. Not that I know of.
Representative Carter. Do they play any " monte " ?
Ah-kis-kuck. No, sir.
Representative Carter. They do not plav any monte out there at
all?
Mr. MuRDocK. No, sir.
Representative Stephens. Ask him if he knows Wah-pah-ho-ko,
the chief of the Indians at Tomechopo in Sonora ?
Ah-kis-kuck. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Did you go from Muzquiz over to Tome-
chopo with Wah-pah-ho-ko?
Ah-kis-kuck. Yes, sir.
1480 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Representative Stepheks. When did you go across there? Ask
him if the went with the tribe wlien they all went over.
Ah-kis-kuck. No, sir; I went with Mr. Field on this side.
Representative Stephens. He went on the railroad, did he?
Ah-kis-kuck. He went on the railroad.
Representative Stephens. How long did he live down in Sonora
at Toniechopo when he went there ?
Ah-kis-kuck. About seven years.
Representative Stephens. Ask him if he lived on a tract of land
that was bought for the tribe at Tomechopo.
Ah-kis-kuck. That is where I lived.
Representative Stephens. Ask him if Wah-pah-ho-ko was chief
of the tribe living there on the farm.
Ah-kis-kuck. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. What made you leaA^e there and go back
to Muzquiz ? Did Wah-pah-ho-ko give you permission to go back
to Muzquiz and leave the tribe?
Ah-kis-kuck. Because Mr. Field — they don't treat us right about
our lease money. Another thing, the land was not fit to farm.
Representative Stephens. When was it that he left there and went
back to Muzquiz ?
Mr. MuRDOCK. I can not make him understand that.
Representative Stephens. Ask him if he did not get his money
paid to him at Douglas as long as he stayed there with Wah-pah-
ho-ko in Sonora.
Ah-kis-kuck. No, sir; I don't know anything about that.
Representative Stephens. He does not know whether he got his
money or not? Ask him if he went with the other Indians when
they drew their money at Douglas.
Ah-kis-kuck. No, sir.
Representative Stephens. Ask him if he knows wdiy he did not
get it.
Mr. Mupj)ock. You mean lease money?
Representative Stephens. Yes; lease money or the other, either;
any money.
Ah-kis-kuck. Yes; I went over to Douglas Avith the whole tribe
to get their lease money.
Representative Stephens. Ask him if they did not get money
there; and if they did not. why they did not get it at Douglas when
they went.
Ah-kis-kuck. Field — it kind of seems to me he controls that
money, and they kind of pay us a little at a time.
Representative Stephens. About how much?
Aii-Kis-KUCK. I only received $70 at once.
Representative Stephens. How many times did you get $70 or
an}'^ other sum?
Aii-Kis-KUCK. I only got it twice — $70.
Representative Steppiens. "What became of the $50 that he said he
got awhile ago?
Aii-Kis-KUCK. I got that before 1 got the other money.
Representative Si'ephens. Ask him how many Indians left with
him from Sonora or Douglas and wcmU back to Muzquiz when he
went back.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1481
Ah-kis-kuck. I never did connt hov,- iiinnv there were.
Eepresentative Stephens. Ask him if Okeniah and Wah-pah-ho-ko
did not try to £jet him to stay with the tribe in Sonora.
Ah-kis-ki'ck. No, sir: they never said anything to us.
Representative Stephens. Ask him if he does not have an interest
in that hmd at Tomechopo now.
Ah-kis-kuck. No. sir; not that I know of.
Representative Stephens. Ask him if he does not belong to that
band of Indians of which Wah-pah-ho-ko is chief.
Ah-kis-kuck. Yes, sir : that is my oAvn tribe.
Representative Si-ephens. Ask him if he knows that tiie huid be-
h>ngs to the whole band of Indians.
Ah-kis-kuck. I heard from Mexicans— they told me that that
land belonged to Mr. Bentlev. or Okemah.
The Chaiij-aian. Mr. Bentley, do yor. want to ask tins witness
anything? . • i x
Mr. Bentley. I do not believe I care to ask him any questions, but
I should like to make a statement, either now or later.
The Chairman. We Avill hear your statement later.
TESTIMONY OF WAH-NAH-KE-THA.
(All questions and answers through Interpreter Murdock.)
The Chairman. Do you come from Mexico?
Wah-nah-ke-tha. Yes.
The Chairman. How long have you lived in Mexico?
Wah-nah-ke-tha. About 14 years.
The Chairman. Do you live in Muzquiz, too?
Wah-nah-ke-tha. At Nacimiento.
The Chairman. How far is that from Muzquiz?
Wah-nah-ke-tha. It is about 18 miles.
The Chairman. Did you ever live at Sonora with the tribe?
Wah-nah-ke-tha. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How long since you left there ?
Wah-nah-ke-tha. Two years ago.
The Chairman. Tell him that we would be glad to have him state
what he wishes to say, and to hear his complaints. Just let him
make a connected statement of it.
^Ir. Murdock. I gave a statement here to-day what he came there
for. He wants to show that to you— a statement that he made before
the commissioner. , . tt i -xi.
The Chairman. All right ; let him go ahead. Has he a written
statement ?
Mr. Murdock. Yes.
The Chairman. Do vou have a written statements
Wah-nah-ke-tha. that is what we come here for, to give this
statement. „ „ ,,^1,
The Chairman. Who prepared this statement for you ? Who
wrote it? , . . ,
AVah-nah-ke-tha. They make this over at the commissioners
office. ,„, , . . ,
The Chairman. Who translated this? Who was the interpreter
then?
1482 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Mdrdock. I was the interpreter at that time.
The Chairman. Have you seen this statement? Have you read it?
Mr. MuRDocK. Yes. sir. I read it to them before they signed it.
The Chairman. Was it correct?
Mr. MuRuocK. Yes, sir; they said it was correct.
The Chairman. They say it is correct ?
Mr. MuRDOCK. That "is what we want.
(The statement referred to was read in full, as follows:)
Statemknts of .Jo.sipii MiKDocK. A Memueu of the Kickapoo Tkibe of Indians,
Who Resides in Oklahoma and Who Represents Members of His Tribe]
AND AH-KIS-KUCK AND WAH-NAH-KE-THA, MEMBERS OF THE MEXICAN KiCKAl'OO
Tribe Residing in CoAHni.A. Mexico.
[Mr. Murdock acted as Interpreter for the above-mentioned Indians.]
The ludiatis Ah-kis-kuck ;ind W;ih-nah-ke-tha. from Coahuila, Mexico, repre-
sent themsehes and 7 otliers who have retnnied from Mexico to the United
States, as well as about 29 Kickapoo Indians remaining; in Coahuila. Mexico,
who have allotments of laud in Oklahoma. They desire the protection of the
United States. Including the 9 allottees who returned on April 1 of this year to
Oklahoma, there are about 3S Kickapoo Indians in Coahuila. Mexico, who have
allotments of land near Shawnee, Okla. These Mexican Kickapoos are now in
Coahuila, which is about 125 miles southwest from Eagle Pass, Tex., said Eagle
Pass being opposite Diaz. Mexico. They report these 38 Kickapoo 'allottees to
be in very bad condition.
The Indians living in Coahuila are very desirous of having whatever lease
money is due them paid to them without delay. It has been reported that it is
difficult to reach Coahuila from Eagle Pass. This is not the case, since the
trains are running quite regularly aud there is no difficulty in going back and
forth. I returned myself from Coahuila and reached Shawnee. Okla., on April 1
with the nine of the allottees who have been living in Coahuila.
These 38 Mexican Kickapoo Indians who have lived in Coahuila represent
and claim that they have only received $50 each out of the payment of
$215,000. which was appropriated for settlement of the Mexican Kickapoo
claims April 30, 1906, and they also represent that each member of the tribe,
as they believe, is entitled to about $1,100, as their per capita share out of
said appropriation of $215,000, and they desire the help of the Government of
the United States to secure this money from the parties who ha-\-e it in charge,
whom they believe to be Martin J. Beutley, W. S. Field, and Okema, who Is a
member of the Mexican Kickapoo Tribe residing in the State of Sonora,
Mexico.
We also desire the committee of Congress and the Indian Office to investigate
the payments made out of said appropriation of $215,000 to the Kickapoo In-
dians residing in the State of Sonora, to see if they have been fairly dealt with
and all of their moneys paid to them by said Bentley, Field, and Okema.
We understand that there was an appropriation of $15,000 for the benefit of
the Mexican Kickapoo in Mexico in the latter part of the year 1912. The
Kickapoos in Coahuila state that they have received no portion whatever of
this $15,000 appropriation, and knew nothing about the appropriation being
made until I informed them on my recent visit to Coahuila. They now ask
that they be paid their share of this money.
These allottees, numbering about 38 in all. holding valuable lands in Okla-
homa, who have been living in Coahuila, Mexico, insist that the United States
shall jn-otect them fully in all their riglits to the lands in Oklahoma and the
rents and i)rofits derived therefrom, and to procure for them their rights to their
share of the $215,000 appropriation made by Congress and the subsequent
appropriation of $15,000 which I have mentioned before.
These Kickapoos tell me that they lesire that Martin J. Beutlov aud W. S.
Field, or any other person, shall have nothing more to do with tlieir lands or
funds, but that the Commissioner of Indian Affairs shall have full control of
the .same for their benefit.
It is understood that a company was organized to control the $215,000 appro-
priation referred to. and that the chief persons in control of this organization
were W. S. Field, together with O. A. Mitscher. formerly agent of the Osage
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1483
i.ans in Oklahoma, together, possibly, with Martin J. Hentley and others
ii. known to us. It is our desire that this organization, or any other person or
persons, as above .stated, shail exercise no control of our proi)erty. but that the
fall control of our moneys and lands shall be exercised by the Conmiissioner
of Indian Affairs, at Washington.
These Indians complain also that the American consul, who is located at
Diaz, has urged the Mexican Kickapoos residing in Coahuila to return to
Sonora, where they were formerly located, and stated to them that they would
get no further aid nor money if they did not remove from Coahuila to Sonora.
The tribe living in Coahuila st-.te that under no conditions will they return
to Sonora, which is 700 miles west of Coahuila ; that they were not treated
right while they formerly lived in Sonora ; that the land is' of very poor qual-
ity and they can not make a living there, and expect to continue to live in
Coahuila.
Iiie foregoing statement made by Joseph IMurdock. a member of our tribe
(4 Mexican Kickapoo Indians, has been interpreted to us and we fully agree
i in the stiitements made by him therein.
Aii-Kis-KUCK (his X mark).
Wah-na-ke-tha (his X mark).
I certify that I have fully and correctly interpreted the foregoing statement
as luade by me to Ah-kis-kuck and Wah-na-ke-tha, and that they say the state-
i ments made therein by me are true to the best of their knowledge and belief,
' and represent their wishes in the matter.
Joseph Mctkdock.
The Chairman. Did he ever answer my question about when he
left Sonora and why he left there?
Wah-xaii-ke-tiia. About two years ago.
I The Chairman. If I understand you correctly, what you and the
other representatives of your tribe who are here desire is an account-
ing of these two funds of $215,000 appropriated in 1908 and of
$1.5.000 appropriated in 1912, and you think it is under the control of
the parties whose names you have mentioned?
"Wah-nah-ke-tha. Yes, sir; that is what we came here for.
The Chairman. And you also desire that it be taken out of the
; hands of the present trustee and administered by the Government
^^'rect? Ask him that question.
'Vah-nah-ke-tha. That is what we came here for — to have the
' "'Jiimissioner or the Government protect our rights; to handle it any
"way they want.
The Chairman. Do you know how that $215,000 fund has been
expended ?
'Vah-nah-ke-tha. Xo, sir; I do not.
The Chairman. "^Tiat effort have you made to find out?
Wah-nah-ke-tha. That is what I come here for to the commis-
sioner, to have him investigate it — that fund.
The Chairman. Have you received any moneys since you have
been living in Coahuila from either of these two funds?
Wah-nah-ke-tha. No, sir.
The Chairman. Have you an allotment in Oklahoma?
Vi'AH-XAH-KE-THA. YcS, sil".
1 lie Chairman. Do you get any rent from that allotment?
AVah-naii-ke-tha. No, sir.
The Chairman. Have you received any rent or lease money from
your allotment since you went to Mexico?
Wah-nah-ke-tha. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you still own your allotment up there?
1484 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Wah-nah-ke-tha. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Who is using it? Who is on it?
Wah-nah-ke-tha. I don't know who is using it. I don't get the
benefit of it the last several years.
The Chairman. Ask him how long it has been since he got some
benefit out of it.
Wah-nah-ke-tha. That is about 10 years.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH MITRDOCK.
Senator Townsend. Do you live in Oklahoma?
Mr. MuRDOCK. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. Have you been down there at Muzquiz?
Mr. MuRDocK, Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. Do you knoAv anything about the conditions
down there?
Mr. MuRDOCK. Of course; I was down there, you know.
Senator Toavnsend. How long Avere you down there?
Mr. MuRDOCK. About two weeks.
Senator Townsend. A^^ien?
Mr. MuRDOCK. I got back to ShaAvnee the 1st of April.
Senator Townsend. Is that the only time you have been down
there ?
Mr. MuRDOCK. I was there before.
Senator Toavnsend. Do you know anything about these matters
that these men have been talking about ? '
Mr. MuRDOCK. Not very much; just what they tell me.
Senator Lane. A^Hiat do you know about his allotment up in Okla-
homa ? Do you know where it is ?
Mr. MuRDocK. I can state it as near as I know about these allot-
ments.
Senator Lane. This man's allotment?
Mr. MuRDocK. Yes, sir. There was an act of Congress, in 1906 I
think it was, to haA'e the Kickapoos — to have their restrictions re-
moA^ed; at least one of them and several others; I can't recall their
names. It seems that that time they claimed a fellow named Chap-
man deeded these lands.
The Chairman. Had a deed from him to these lands?
Mr. MuRDOCK. And since that time, you know, they don't get any
rent out of it.
Senator Lane. Did he sell it to Chapman?
Mr. MuRDOCK. No; I don't think so. He claimed he did not sign
any deed.
Senator Lane. Soniebodj' took it away from him? Is that what
he means ?
Mr. MuRDocK. Yes ; that is Avhat he told me, you know. Of course
I been here to interpret for the other Indians. He hired a lawyer to
get these lands for him.
Senator Lane. Did he get it back?
Mr. MuRDocK. He got it back all right.
Senator Lane. This man then has his lands back again, has he?
Mr. MuRDocK. Yes.
Senator Lane. What kind of land is it?
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1485
Mr. MuRDOCK. It is just right in between, you know. They tried
to sell it.
Senator Lane. Is it worth anything?
Mr. MuRDOcK. These lawyers tried to get $40,000 for it, and they
only offered $15,000. They wanted to get $40,000 for it.
Senator Lane. Are there any houses built on it?
Mr. MuRDOCK. They built a Catholic church right on the southeast
corner.
The Chairman. Did you ever make a deed to your allotment in
Oklahoma ?
Wah-nah-ke-tha. Xo, sir.
The Chairman. Did you bring a suit about it through your law-
yer?^
AVah-nah-ke-tha. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And you won your land back?
Wah-nah-ke-tha. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And you still own that land?
Wah-nah-ke-tha. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What was the name of that man who turned up
claiming that he had a deed from you?
Mr. Murdock. He says Chapman. He don't say it plain, you
know.
The Chairman. What is the name and address of his attorney
in that case ? This man's attorney ?
Wah-nah-ke-tha. His name is Mark Goode,
The Chairman. Where does he live?
Wah-nah-ke-tha. In Shawnee.
The Chairman (addressing Mr. Layne, of the Indian Office).
Have you a record in your office of this particular case ?
Mr. Layne. I think the record will show something about it.
The Chairman. Will you look through the record and send down
here at your earliest convenience whatever you can find in the record ?
Mr. Layne. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. What I am interested in is finding out why, if he
has land in town of the value of several thousand dollars, he gets
no income from it.
Mr. Bentley. His nan e was deliberately forged to a deed. They
filed a deed of record and took possession of the. land and put him out
of it and then litigated it. But in that locality they are so desperately
against the Indians that notwithstanding he got judgment against
the man for $15,000 the land was put up and sold. Of course he
bought it in and gave his attorney a third of it for recovering it.
The Chairman. What was the basis of the judgment?
Mr. Bentley. The man who forged his name to the deed also forged
it to a contract wherein he was to recover the land for him when it
had not been taken away from him even, and for that service
The Chairman. The court found it was a forgery, did it?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; witnesses came up from Muzquiz who, it
was proved, had forged other deeds; but notwithstanding the testi-
mony to my mind was clear, the court turned him down and decreed
the land to the other man.
Senator Lane. Does he own any part of it now ?
35601— PT 1 3— 14 2
1486 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr, Bextley. No, sir; I do not think so. I do not know just what
the status of it is, but I think he has been figured out of it.
The Chairman. They sold his hind to satisfy the creditor, and the
judgment creditor bought the hind in, and he still thinks he owns the
land. If he is under that impression, I think that investigation can
proceed without further delajdng this hearing.
Did you get any money out of this $215,000 or out of this $15,000?
Wah-naii-ke-tha. I received $50 out of that $215,000.
The Chairman. When did he get that and who paid it to him?
Wah-nah-ice-tha. Bentley.
The Chairman. When did he pay it to him, and where?
Wah-nah-ke-tha. About five or six years ago.
The Chairman. Where was he when Bentley paid him this $50?
Wah-nah-ke-tha. At Tomechopo.
Representative Burke. How much money did it cost you to come
up here to Washington on this trip ?
Wah-nah-ke-tha. Not over $30 for fare.
Representative Burke. Wlio gave you the money to come here ?
AVah-nah-ke-tha. We got tliis from the Indian tribe.
Representative Burke. That is, the other Indians contributed to
raise the money to pay the expenses of these two ?
Mr. Murdock. les.
Representative Burke. Now, I want to ask you a question. Did
they come from Muzquiz with you when you came?
Mr. Murdock. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. How many more came?
Mr. Murdock. There was about nine altogether, you know ; that is,
allottees.
Representative Burke. The other seven stopped in Oklahoma ?
ISlr. Murdock. The}" were there when we left.
Representative Burke. What did you go down to Mexico for?
Mr. Murdock. Just on a visit.
Representative Burke. Did you ask these people to come with you?
Mr. Murdock. No. sir ; I never asked them.
Representative Burke. Did they have a conference or council while
you were there?
Mr. Murdock. I just heard they had a council, but I did not go
over there.
Representative Burke. You do not know anything about that?
Mr. Murdock. No, sir.
Representative Burke. AA-lien did you first find out these two men
were coming to AVashington?
Mr. Murdock. Just about the day before I left I heard they were
sending these two men to come up here to AVashington.
Representative Butrke. AA^ere you coming to AVashington on your
own account at this time?
Mr. Murdock. On this trip?
Representative Burke. Yes; were you coming to AA^ashington ?
Plow did you happen to come to AA^ashington ?
Mr. Murdock. Oh, they wanted me to come here to interpret for
them.
Representative Burke. AATien did they ask you, and Avhere?
Mr. Murdock. At the time they had a council over in Old Mexico.
Representative Burke. You were there at the council?
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1487
Mr. MuRDocK. Xo; I was not there. I was not over there at the
lime the}' had the council.
Eepresentative Burke. How did tliey ask 3'ou to come at that time,
if you were not there {
Mr. MuRDOCK. They sent this man here [indicating]. They told
me. "All these Indians want to have you to interpret for us up to
Washington." That is before I know it.
Eepresentative Burke. And wanted you to come?
Mr. ]\luRDOCK. They wanted me to interpret for them.
Eepresentative Burke. And did they pay your expenses to come
here?
Mr. MuiiDOCK. Yes, sir.
Eepresentative Burke. From ]SIexico or from Oklahoma?
Mr. Mitjdock. From Oklahoma.
Eepresentative Burke. Did they pay 3'ou anything more than your
expenses ?
Mr. Mi'RDOCK. Xo, sir. I didn't ask.
Eepresentative Burke. You are not related to these men. are you?
Mr. MuRDOCK (indicating Ah-kis-kuck ) . This here is my half
brother right here.
Eei:)resentative Burke. Is he any relation of this one over here?
Mr. ]MuRnocK. Xo. sir.
Eepresentative Burke. Do you have any information — I know
yon have not — as to how this $15,000 has been expended? Have you
looked it up?
Mr. MuRDoc'K. Their share?
Eepresentative Burke. Xothing about their share. There was
$15,000 aj^propriated by the act of 1912, directed to be paid to the
treasurer of the Kickapoo Community of Mexico, a corporation to
be organized under the laws of the State of Arizona. Have you
looked it up to see how that money was expended ?
Mr. ]MuRDOCK. Xo, sir; I have not.
Eepresentative Burke. You do not know whether it has been paid
out or not?
Mr. MuTRDOCK. No, sir.
Eepresentative Stephens. You know they had a large body of land
down there in Sonora. don't you. at Tomechopo, on the Yaqui Eiver?
Mr. ^luRDocK. Yes. sir; I was out there.
Eepresentative Stephens. How long did yon stay down there?
Mr. MuRDocK. I was out there two or three days.
Eepresentative Stephens. How lono- did vou remain when vou were
there?
^Ir. MuRDOCK. Two or three days.
Eepresentative Stephens. Who sent you down there, or what did
you go for?
Mr. MuRDOCK. ]Mr. Thackery— Frank A. Thackery. the Indian
agent.
Eepresentative Stephens. At what place? At Shawnee?
Mr. ]\[uRnorK. At Shawnee. Okla.
Eepresentative Sit.phens. He sent you down there to try to get
part of those Mexican Kickapoo Indians out of Mexico?
Mr. MuRDOCK. Xo, sir; they just sent me over there to tell these
Indians to meet him at Douglas, Ariz., to pay their lease money.
1488 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Eepresentative Stephens. Did not some of them go back to Okla-
homa and leave Mexico ?
Mr. MuRDOCK. We have been going back and forth to visit each
other.
Representative Stephens. How did these Indians come to go back
to Muzquiz?
Mr. MuRDOCK. I don't know.
Representative Stephens. How^ many of them went back to Muz-
quiz from Sonora?
Mr. MuRDocK. I don't know.
Representative Stephens. These two did, didn't they?
Mr. MuRDOCK. I think they told here how many of them left, but
I don't remember.
Representative Stephens. You were not with them when they
went back?
Mr. MuRDOCK. No, sir.
Representative Stephens. They don't own any land at Muzquiz,
do they — in Coahuila ?
Mr. MuRDOCK. I don't know whether they have or not.
Representative Stephens. They have an interest, and so have you,
in Sonora ?
Mr. MuRDOCK. No, sir; I have nothing to do with that.
Representative Stephens. These two men have, haven't they ?
Mr. MuRDocK. Not that I knovv' of; I don't know whether they have
any interest in that land or not.
Representative Stephens. You have never gone to the Mexican
Kickapoos ?
Mr. MuRDOCK. No, sir; none whatever.
Representative Stephens. You are an Oklahoma Kickapoo?
Mr. MuRDOCK. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. ^^Tiat kind of country is that down in Coahuila?
Mr. MuRDOCK. Pretty good land, in the valley.
Senator Lane. They farm down there, do they?
Mr. MuRDocK. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. The Indians down there make a living by farming?]
Mr. MuRDOCK. Yes, sir.
Representative BuiiKE. Have you seen the land about Sonora ?
Mr. MuRDocK. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. Have you seen the land where the Kicka-
poos are living there in Sonora? •
Mr. MuRDOCK. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. How does the land compare there withj
the land where these Indians are now located ? '
Mr. MuRDOCK. Well, it is about 80 acres of it — that is. farming
land. That is all that was in there. Of course I have l>een over it,
you know. There was about 25 or -iO families, you know. They had
only about as long as this building. 10 or I'i rows; each family —
some of them, you know. Tliere are so many of them they can't
farm very much.
Representative Bi^rke. What kind of land is it?
Mr. MuRDOCK. Pretty fair land; just 80 acres of it.
Rei)resentative Bitrke. Is that the land Mr. Bentley ])urc]iased
for those Indians, or is said to have purchased for them?
Mr. MuRDOCK. I don't know.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1489
Senator Lane. Who pays out the funds for the irrigation of the
lands down in Mexico?
Mr. MuRDOCK. I don't know anything about that.
■ Eepresentative Stephens. Do you know John Gostin?
Mr. MuRDOCK. Yes, sir.
Eepresentative Stephens. Isn't he in charge of those Indians in
Sonora ?
Mr. MuRDOCK. No, sir; I don't know anything about that.
Re])resentative Stephens. You only stayed there two or three days
at a time, and were there three or four times? You were sent down
there by Mr. Thackery?
Mr. ^luRDOCK. Yes, sir.
Eepresentative Stephens. Mr. Buntyn is the agent now? Mr.
Thackery is not there at Shawnee?
Mr. j\IuRDOCK. Mr. Thackery is not there now.
Eepresentative Stephens. Mr. Buntyn is the agent at present?
Mr. MuRDOCK. Yes, sir.
Eepresentative Stephens. Did he authorize you to come up here
with these two Indians?
Mr, MuRDOCK. No, sir.
Eepresentative Stephens. How did you happen to come, then?
^Ir. MuRDOCK. The whole tribe ; they held their council, you know.
They decided for me to interpret for them up here with these two
men.
Eepresentative Stephens, That council was held in Mexico, as
you stated?
Mr. MuRDOCK. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF MARTIN J. BENTLEY.
The Avitness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. You may state your name, residence, and occupa-
tion.
_ Mr, Bentley. Martin J. Bentley, Shawnee, Okla.; by profession I
am an attorney.
The Chairman. Mr. Bentley, it appears that in 1908 appropria-
tion was made by Congress of $215,000 to carry out certain treaty
provisions with the Kickapoo Indians, and that lejrislation directed
that this sum should be paid by the Secretary of the Treasury as
authorized and directed by a majority of the members of the Alexi-
can Kickapoo Tribe in their council assembled. Subsequently, on
August 24, 1912. another appropriation of $15,000 was made to be
expended in the payment of taxes, salary of farmers, maintenance
and repair of irrigation ditches, indebtedness for su])plies already
furnished, court costs, and obligations heretofore incurred in settle-
ment of land titles, said sums to be paid to the treasu)-er of a cor-
poration to be known as the KickajDoo Community of Mexico, to be
organized imder the laws of the State of Arizona. The organization
of such corporation was required to be authorized by a majority of
the members of the Mexican Kickapoo Indians residing in the State
of Sonora, in the Eepublic of Mexico, in council assembled.
I want to ask you what knowledge you have, firs.t, of the $215,000
fund and what disposition has been made of it?
1490 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Bentley. I will try to answer j-ou briefly, but it takes a irood
deal of detail to explain.
Of the $215,000 I drew $86,276.94 and some odd cents, and that fund
I am entirely accoimtable for. While I had a cotrustee — an Indian,
a man that did not read or write — the whole responsibility for the
disbursement of that sum rested upon me.
The Kickapoo Indians at that time were heavily in debt. I had
supported them in the desert. I had moved them a thousand miles
across the desert countr3^ coverins: a period from May 6, 1907, to
November 8 of that year, comin£>- through those deserts. I fed them
all that distance. I wintered them there in the desert. I borrowed
money from anybody and everybody I could, even on this side, to
keep them alive there. It was a very exj^ensive place to winter.
These debts had accrued. I had financed them some $10,000 of my
own money.
That element of the tribe who made me their trustee elected to
remain in Mexico, and immediately following that I proceeded into
the interior of Mexico and negotiated for a home for them, moved
them to this locality, and there I bought and paid for and took abso-
lute title to a piece of country about 6^1 miles square, said to contain
about 30,000 acres of land.
Representative Stephens. Was it on a stream?
Mr. Bentley. On the headwaters of the Yaqui River, a great big
lasting mountain stream; and in the center of this reservation is a
large basin — probably as fine land as I know of anywhere in the
world.
Representative Stephens. How far is it from Bacerac?
Mr. Bentley. Six miles. It is the same valley extended, only a
much wider country than at Bacerac.
After acquiring the land, the next thing was to provide water.
This is a country where agriculture is not successful without irriga-
tion. I employed an engineer, made a careful survey, planned a
system of irrigation, and completed it. That required about four
months' time, and a good deal of that time I employed as many as
70 Mexicans. The ditch was completed, and it is tliere to-day. and
it will irrigate about 600 acres of land at this time, and there is
where the Kickapoos raise their living.
The CHAiR:\rAN. When did you first become connected with, this
tribe of Indians?
Mr. Bentley. A^vay back in 1892 or 1893.
The Chairman. What amount of money did the tribe owe you
when this appropriation of $215,000 was made?
Mr. Bentley. About $10,000.
The Chairman. Of what did that consist and wliat evidences of
indebtedness did you have?
Mr. Bextley. Well, there had been an investigation by a subcom-
mittee of the Senate into the whole affairs of the Kickapoos, and
my account is filed there. That was just prior to receiving this
appro]5riation, a few months before. At that time my accounts
submitted to them, examined by them, and, I think, approved by
them, showed that there was $8,060 at that time due me from the
tribe. That was prior to the a]ipropriation, and of course, the
expense of maintaining tlie Indians and contimiing their care went
on. Probably it was about $10,000 wheri I received that money.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1491
The CiiAiR3rAN. Have you any way of ascertaining just what they
did owe you at the time you received this money?
Mr. Bentley. It would be approximately $iO,000. I submitted
to the committee since a carefully itemized accountinc;.
The Chairman. The Committee on Intlian AtFairs of the Senate?
Mr. Bexteey. Xo, sir; the committee that was appointed to inves-
tigate the aft'airs of the Kickapoo Community?
Kepresentative Stephens. AAHiom was that composed of?
Mr. Bentley. Senator La Follette, Senator Curtis, and Senator
Teller.
The Chairman. When was that investi<>ati(m made?
Mr. Bentley. That was in 1907.
The Avay I reported to that committee was this; : They took a good
deal of testimony- — 2,800 j^ages of that record. They went very
thoroughly into all the ali'airs in great detail of the Kickapoos. cov-
ering all my period of service to them and tlie various things. And
when the ap])ro])riation of $215,000 was made I stated to the com-
mittee that if this a])propriation was made I would account to
them, if it came into my hands, for what I did with it.
The Chairman. You then promi:)ted or ])romoted this appropria-
tion of $215,000?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir: it was a claim against the United States.
The Chairman. And you anticipated when the appropriation was
made, and it Avas understood that in all j^robability you would
handle it?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you give any bond when you took that sum
of money?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir; absolutely nothing.
The Chairman. What was your financial condition then?
Mr. Bentley. Well, I suppose at that time my personal responsi-
bility— I do not know that I could hardly approximate what it may
have been. Somewhere in the nei.ohborhood of $30,000, maybe
$40,000.
The Chairman. Were you acting as the adviser of the Kickapoo
Tribe of Indians when that appropriation was made and you received
it as trustee?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir.
The Chairman. Who was their counsel or adviser at that time?
Mr. Bentley. There has been this relationship up to recently.
For many years Mr. Field has been their attorney.
The Chairjian. Is that the Mr. Field that is present?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. And I have been their trustee. And
while I have had charge of the Indians and their affairs, the legal
part of part of it Mr. Field has looked after, and it has been the
relation of trustee on my part and att(jrney on his part.
The Chairman. You received this fund of $215,000 as trustee for
the Indians?
Mr. BEN'n.EY. Oh, no; I only got a j.art — $Sr),200 of it only.
The Chairman. That part, of course, that went to the trustee in
Oklahoma you had nothing to do with?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir.
The Chairman. How much did voii receive?
Mr. Bentley. $80,000.
1492 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
The Chairman. Exactly?
Mr. Bentley. In trust; yes, sir — $86,200 and some odd.
The Chairman. When j^ou received that $86,000, what did you do
with it ?
Mr. Bentley. I deposited $16,000 of it in the Riggs National Bank,
of this city, and I took New York exchange.
The Chairman. How did you deposit that?
Mr. Bentley. I deposited that to my credit.
The Chairman. Individually?
Mr. Bentley. I think so. I am rather inclined to think it was
" M. J. Bentley, agent," but I won't be certain.
The Chairman. Have you the record of the checks and the
amount you kept in that bank?
Mr. Bentley. I think I have that yet. I think they have been
preserved.
The Chairman. You deposited $16,000 to your credit there indi-
vidually or as agent ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Or as trustee ?
Mr. Bentley. I won't be certain. It was the only money I had
there. It was Indian money. IVliether I deposited as 'trustee or
not — my custom had been generally to deposit such moneys as
" M. Jay Bentley'* to distinguish that so it v/ould not get mixed up.
I would sometimes forget and write a check and leave the " agent "
off, and m}' account leading up to that in a Texas bank I carried in
that form.
The Chairman. In addition to this, what did you do with the
other $70,000?
Mr. Bentley. I took that in New York exchange and proceeded
back to jMexico, beyond the border of Mexico, wdiere the Indians were.
I carried it in exchange for a long time.
The Chairman. How long?
Mr. Bentley. I could not tell you exactly. I paid for the land I
bought for the Indians out of it.
The Chairman. To whom was that exchange made payable?
Mr. Bentley. To myself and Okemah.
The Chairman. Why did you put Okemah in?
Mr. Bentley. We were both elected trustees to draw the money.
The Chairman. Did you put this $16,000 in the Eiggs Bank to
your and Okemah's credit?
Mr. Bentley. No.
The Chairman. Why did you not do that?
Mr. Bentley. Because the Indian can not sign his name, and I
would have been inconvenienced in checking it out. I owed a lot
of that money. The first money I drew of that account was money
I owed in Washington.
The Chair!\ian. You took the remaining $70,000 of that trust fund
in New York exchange payable to yourself and carried it for a long
time ?
Mr. Bentley. To myself and Okemah.
The Chairman. What was your idea in doing that?
Mr. Bentley. To make that plain, there had been one protracted,
everlasting fight between the department and myself, the department
ever interfering and trying to prevent those Indians from carrying
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1493
out their purpose of removini? from the United States. I had been
indicted, jailed, held up repeatedly, and I was afraid somebody
would get some disgruntled Indian to attach the money or interfere
after I had gotten the money. As a matter of fact, the plan was
interfered with and I did not dare deposit it.
The CiiAiKMAN. Did you get $12,000 of tlrat fund for fees?
Mr. Bentley. No part of that fund went to me for fees.
The Chaikmax. Now tell us what you did with that exchange for
$70,000?
Mr. Bextley. I carried that for a long time.
The Chairmax. You mean in your pocket?
Mr. Bentley. No; I put it in a safety-deposit vault. I put it
away. I paid for the reservation down there out of it. From time
to time I deposited cash. It was in $5,000 and $10,000 pieces, and I
deposited it from time to time as it was required to develop a sys-
tem of irrigation and for other purposes.
The Chaikmax. Now, what I am trying to get at is j'our idea of
the handling of that fund in that way. You carried it in $5,000
and $10,000 pieces. How many pieces of exchange did you have?
Mr. Bextley. I would hardly be able to say without looking at my
books. I would say that there were probably five $10,000 pieces and,
my recollection is, four $5,000 pieces. I won't be certain. It was
divided for convenience.
The Chairmax. Very well; go ahead.
IVIr. Bexixey. As to the last one of those drafts for $10,000 a pe-
culiar condition arose. These Indians who are here, because I would
not pay over the money to them, notv>'ithstanding I had supported
them liberally — this man Ah-kis-kuck says he onl}?^ got $50, but I
supported him and his family down there for all these years, and, of
course, I paid for it out of their money, and to fence their reserva-
tion.
Finally a time came — these gentlemen became insurrectos. They
went into collusion with a lawyer at Shawnee, and tried to have a
receiver appionted to force me to pay over this money. I was satis-
fied the court was in with the peojile who had alrady robbed them of
their land. At that time it had not been determined whether they
would recover it or not.
The Chairman. Let me interrupt you right there. Don't you think
you ought to have been required to give a bond for your execution of
that triist, to handle that fund in the interest of the tribe that
owned it?
jSIr. Bentley. That was discussed a good deal.
The Chairmax. You are a lawyer?
Mr. Bextley. Yes, sir.
The Chairmax. How long had you been in the profession at that
time ?
Mr. Bentley. I was admitted to the bar 10 or 12 years ago.
The Chairman. Did you ever in your life, representing a client in
any case, advise him to turn over a large sum of money to a man who
had practically no estate, as you say you had none, without requiring
a bond for the faithful execution of his trusteeship?
Mr. Bentley. Well, I can not say that I would give such advice,
but, nevertheless, this money was turned over to me without bond,
1494 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
and also those who elected me trustee, who drew a larger sum, and I
have accounted for the money.
The Chairman. Have you filed an itemized statement of your dis-
bursements of that fund?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; I filed one with Senator Clapp and the
subcommittee of the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs, and I filed
one with Mr. Hannan, secretary to Senator La Follette.
The Chairman. Do you know whether he is a stockholder in the
Kickapoo Community Co. ?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir; I do not.
The Chairman. Do you know whether he is interested in it in any
way?
Mr. Bentley. You mean the one that was organized recently?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Bentley. The Arizona corporation? I am only advised as to
that. My information is that Mr. Field and Mr. Mitscher and Mr.
Gostin are the only white men who are trustees.
The Chairman. How much did j'ou pay for that G^ miles square
of land?
Mr. Field. Mr. Bentley is mistaken about my being a member.
Mr. Bentley. Pardon me. ; I guess I am incorrect in that. Mr.
Field is attorney for the corporation. I will change my statement.
The Chairman. How much did you pay for that 6^ miles square
of land that you bought with this trust fund?
Mr. Ben'ixey. Well, Senator, the land and the things that went
with it and the expense leading up to acquiring it — I would prefer to
bring a statement showing exactly what it was.
The Chairman. I should prefer it, too.
Mr. Bentley. I should prefer to do that if you will permit me,
because this was some years ago, and I might misstate it if I at-
tempted to tell you the exact figures.
Senator Townsend. About how much was it?
]VIr. Bentley. The land itself cost about $20,000.
The Chairman. What went with it ?
Mr. Bentley. I carried the title to it for several years.
The Chairman. In whose name did you take that title?
Mr. Bentley. M^^self and Okemah, who were the sole trustees.
The Chairman. And he got a copy of the deed that you took?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir. In Mexico the deed is written in the record.
Senator Lane. Did you take it as trustee?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir; it is a straight deed to Okemah. and myself.
The Chairman. lA^iy did you not take it as trustee ?
Mr. Bentley. Because under the law of ]Mexico you can not.
At this period of the record I would like to oifer a receipt from the
treasurer of the present corporation ; a receipt to me for that land.
(The receipt referred to is as follows:)
Shawnee, Okla., August 13, 1013.
I hereby certify that Marthi ,T. Rentley has this day delivered to me a deed
convoyiiifr'to the Ivickapoo coiiuminity of jSIexico a tract of coiiiitry now occupied
by them in the State of Souora. in the Republic of Mexico, the said tract being
desigiiiited and f;;onerally known as Taniichopa, said to contain about twenty-
eight thousand (28,000) acres.
O. A. MtTSCHEB,
Treasurer of Ihe Kiekapoo Coiidii unity of Mexico.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1495
Mr. Bentley. It was agreed here that I would do that, and I have
done that.
The Chairman. Agreed where?
Mr. Bentley. Here in Washington.
The Chairman. "When did you make this deed ?
Mr. Bentley. It was understood here hist year
The Chairman. Understood by whom?
Mr. Bentley. By the conferees on the part of the Senate and
House wlio had the matter in charge — the appropriation of $42,000.
It was cut down to $15,000.
The Chair:man. Did they require you during that conference to
agree that you would make a deed to this property?
Mr. Bentley. I do not think so. I voluntarily suggested that if
this money was provided
The Chairman. Mr. Burke was a member of this conference?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you have an agreement with him and with
Mr. Stephens, who was another member?
Mr. Bentley. Yes. sir.
The Chairman. Did you have an agreement with them that you
would make a deed to this property?
Mr. Bentley. If the appropriation was made.
The Chairman. You had that understanding then?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You had then had title to this land for how
long — you and Okemah?
Mr. Bentley. Oh, we had carried the title — we bought the land
in 1908, and this was 1913 that we deeded it.
I want to explain, if you will permit me, why we carried it so
long. Until Congress authorized this corporation to be formed
there was no way I could divest myself of it. I did not want to
carry that responsibility, but wlio could I deed it to? If I deeded
it to these people individually some Mexican would have bought out
some of them in a week. There seemingly was no way to get rid
of it. The conferees suggested that idea.
Senator Tov.'nsend. What would have happened if you had died?
Mr. Bentley. I had executed a declaration of trust, disclaiming
absolutely any title whatever. Then I also executed another one.
At the time of this conference the question arose. I have never at
any time asserted any claim other than that the Kickapoos owed me.
Representative Burke. My. Bentley. perhaps I can refresh your
memory. As a matter of fact, at the time this conference you speak
of took place you had that title in your name, had you not?
Mr. Bentley. Oh, surely I did; yes, sir.
Representative Burke. And you said something about having exe-
cuted a declaration, just as you said now, but as a matter of fact you
were not able to tell whei"e it was or Avho held it on anything about
it. Is it not a fact now — to refresh your memory— that we insisted,
before we consented to the a])propriation of $15,000, when you were
trvinir to get some $40,000 or $50,000
'Mr. Bf.ntley. $42,000.
Representative Burke (continuing). $42,000, that j^ou were to
execute a declaration, and Senator Chamberlain drafted it, and it
was to bo deposited with the department?
1496 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Bentley. He was to draft it, and finally he would not, and I
drafted it myself.
Eepresentative Burke. And it was to be deposited with the Sec-
retary of the Interior?
Mr. Bentley. I think it was, but I deposited it with the clerk of
the committee.
Representative Burke. I understand. Your proposition was that
you were to deposit it with Senator La Follette's clerk, Mr. Hannan,
as I remember, and we insisted that it should be filed with the Secre-
tary of the Interior. And, as to your making this voluntary assign-
ment, is it not a fact that we insisted, before we would consent to
any amount in conference, that you execute that declaration?
Mr. Bentley. That one in proper form should be executed; that
is true. But at no time have I ever hesitated to execute anything
showing that that land was only held in trust.
Representative Burke. What can 3'ou say now as to what there
was, if you had died before you executed that declaration, to show
that you were holding that land in trust?
Mr. Bentley. There was an instrument in writting in Mr. Field's
possession at that time. I am certain he has it yet.
Representative Burke. Why was it not produced at that time?
Mr. Bentley. I am unable to say. Perhaps, it was in different
form or more general than the one I did make.
The Chairman. We can not finish this evening, and, perhaps, we
might as well adjourn now.
Representative Burke. My impression is. if you will allow me to
make a suggestion, that the principal thing that we have to deal with
here is the $15,000. This $215,000 is gone.
The Chairman. Let me ask Mr. Bentley a few questions about
that, and then we can recall him at our convenience.
What do you know about that $15,000 fund ?
Mr. Bentley. I had nothing to do in any way with the $15,000.
The Chairman. You promoted its being appropriated?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; I was very active in trying to get it.
The Chairman. Who is that Kickapoo community of Mexico, a
corporation to be organized under the laws of Arizona ?
Mr. Bentley. I understand that includes the whole Kickapoo
community, every member of it, under a certain communal agree-
ment, and that Mr. Mitscher and Mr. Gostin are the only white men
who are connected with it. I am in no way connected with it.
Representative Stephens. What is the name of the corporation?
Mr. Bentley. The Kickapoo Community of Mexico, incorporated
under the laws of Arizona.
The Chairman. Do you know whether or not it is still in business
or whether it is bankrupt?
Mr. Benti.ey. Of course, I only know from hearsay.
The CiiAiR:srAN. Well, what do you hear about it?
Mr. Bentley. I heard it was formed, and I deeded this land over
to it, and I saw a certificate of incorporation, which I was satis-
fied
The ChairiNian. Who were the incorporators?
Mr. Bentley. I only know of them from hearsay, that Okema,
the chief of the Indians, and several of the tribe, and these two white
men were the incorporators for the others.
I
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1497
The Chairman. Who is Mr. Mitscher?
Mr. Bentley. Mr. Mitscher is a citizen of Oklahoma City, Olila.
Representative Burke. Is he related to you or to to Mr. Field?
Mr. Bentley. He is in no way related to me.
Representative Burke. To Mr. Field?
Mr. Bentley. As to that, I could not say.
The Chairman. What is his interest in it?
Mr. Bentley. I could not tell j^ou.
The Chairman. How did he come to be interested in a project down
in Mexico?
Mr. Bentley. All I know is
The Chairman. Do you know him personally?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The CiiAiRitAN. Did you know that he was to be connected with
that company before it was organized?
Mr. Bentley. I apprehended he would be.
The Chairman. Why?
Mr. Bentley. Because he had been president, or secretary, rather, of
a Delaware trust company, and I had previously turned over part of
the fund — the remainder of the Kickapoo fund — to that corporation,
and I knew him in that way.
The Chairman. Do you know what became of that $15,000?
Mr. Benti^y. No, sir.
The Chairman. Have yon received any part of it?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir ; I do not know anything about it.
Senator Toavnsend. Was Mr. Field attorney, you say, for you as
trustee ?
Mr. Bentley. No ; he was attorney for the Kickapoos.
Senator Townsend. Did you pay him out of this $86,000 ?
Mr. Bentley. I think I paid him an attorney fee of $3,000.
Senator Townsend. Is that all you paid him?
Mr. Bentley. I am very certain that was all he was ever paid, and
that covered several years of service.
Senator Townsend. AVas there any commission paid on that $215,000
to anybody?
Mr. Benti.ey. You mean in the way of a fee?
Senator Townsend. Yes.
Mr. Benit.ey. I received a fee out of the $215,000, but not out of
the $80,000. The Oklahoma and the Mexican Indians together voted
me a fee of 12^ per cent.
Senator Townsend. Twelve and one-half per cent of the
Mr. Bentley. Of the $215,000. That came out first, of course.
The Chairman. Well, I suppose the Mexican Kickapoos paid their
pro rata share of it?
Mr. Bentley. That was taken out first, and then a division came.
Representative Burke. He got 12.1^ per cent on $215,000.
The Chairman. That is about $27,000.
Representative Burke. That took $27,000 from the $215,000 that
Mr. Bentley got.
Senator Toavnsend. How did it happen that you got 12i per cent
out of the money you did not handle?
Mr. Bentley. There v.'ere three warrants issued. The Kickapoos
authorized one warrant to be paid as a fee. That was separate en-
1498 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
tirely. Then (he division ^Yas made according to the balance that
was left.
Senator Townsend. I still do not have your answer as to whether
or not 3^ou should have received a commission on the money that Mr.
Thackery^
Mr. Bentley. I got it before I had this claim. Here was a dis-
puted claim. I got this appropriation through Congress for these
Indians, and that represented 12 years of labor.
Senator Townsend. You got the 12| per cent for getting the amount
allowed ?
Mr. Benti^ey. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Attorney's fees?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The CiTAiRiMAN. Then you took the remainder of it in trust — took
$86,000 in trust — and gave no bond ?
Mr, Bentley. No, sir ; I gave no bond.
The CHAiR:NrAN. What have the Indians now to show for that
^98,579.79, or $86,200, deducting their share, or approximately their
share, of your fee of $28,000?
Mr. Bentley. Mv fee did not come out of that. I got for them as
trustee $86,200.
The Chair3ian. 1 know; but if you had not taken that fee out you
would have gotten still more for them as trustee.
Mr. Bentley. I did not take it out; pardon me. They voted that.
I had nothing to do with the council.
The Chair:man. I think that any lawyer would recognize that you
were occupying a fiduciary relationship to them before you became
their actual trustee; and for that reason, if their interests had been
properly guarded, all of that money would not have been turned over
to a financially irresponsible person without some security. Such a
proceeding is absolutely unprecedented in the courts of any country.
There is not a court in Christendom that would allow the turning
over of $100,000 to a financially irres])onsible man without security.
Mr. Bentley. Well, Senator, if you knew all the conditions that
existed at that time, you might perhaps modify your opinion, I
think, because
The Chairiman. Maybe so.
Mr. Bentley. The Government was determined to destroy the In-
dians. Wh}^, at that time and just previous to that the Commissioner
of Indian Affairs Avas asking that these Indians be indicted on some
ground in order that he might get them back. I have been indicted
over and over and driven about like a dog over the country. Congress {
three times in succession passed legislation for the relief of those
Kickapoos, and each time the Indian Office defeated, by indirection,
the object of the law. We are being i^ersecuted to-day.
The Chairman. That has nothing to do with your use of that fund.
What I am trying to get at is how you handled that trust fund.
Mr. Bentley. I hope you will do me the justice to look into it fully.
The CiiAiRnrAN. The commission is going to do so.
Mr. Bentley. I have accounted for every dollar, and more, too.
The CHAimiAN. Do you claim anything out of that $15,000 fund?
Ml-. BEN'rLEY. No, sir; nothing Avhatever.
The^CnAiRMAN. Did you not say awhile ago that you had $8,100
that vou claimed?
I
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1499
Mr. Bentley. I stated to the committee that if thev would appro-
priate that $15,000 I would deed this land.
The Chair:max. You had expected to get. $8,100 out of that fund,
though ?
Mr. Bextley. Not a penny to me. Here was a deed my friends
were being- sued for. I either had to protect it and pay it or let my
friends lose it.
The Chairman. Their deed to whom?
Mr. Bextley. It came about in this way : Four Kickapoo Indians
deeded their land to a man b}^ the name of Ives, in Shawijee, Okla., on
my advice, that it might be sold by him for them. He sold the land,
the title failed, and he had to make good warranties. Later on,
to ]jrotect DO other allottees, it was necessary to find a defect in the
law and defeat those four titles. He was in the position of a man
wlio out of kindness had tried to favor the Indians and had taken
this responsibility. I either had to protect him like a man and pay it
or else let judgment be taken against him, and I could not do that,
Senator, and be a man, and so I paid it.
The Chairman. So you paid that $8,100?
Mr. Bextley. $8,250.
The Chairman. That is what you expected to be reimbursed for
out of this $15,000?
Mr. Bextley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Field, will you remain in town for some time ?
Mr. Field. I live here, and will be here at any time.
Thereupon, at 6.15 o'clock p. m., the joint commission adjourned,
to meet at the call of the chairman.
WASHINGTON, D. C, APRIL 27, 1914.
Joint Commission to In^-estigate Indiax^ Affairs,
funds of mexican kickapoo indians.
The joint commission met in room 128, Senate Office Building, at
8 o'clock p. m.
Present: Senators Robinson (chairman) and Townsend; Eepre-
sentatives Burke and Carter.
TESTIMONY OF MARTIN J. BENTLEY— Resumed.
The witness was reminded that he had been previously sworn.
The Chairman. Mr. Bentley, we shall be \ery glad to hear j^our
statement, commencing with your connections with the Kickapoos,
especially relating to the disposition of the fund of $215,000, or that
part of it that you received. In the hearing the other evening it Avas
requested that you furnish the commission with an itemized statement
of your disbursements of that fund. Are you prepared to do that
now ?
]\Ir. Bextley. Mr. Chainnan, I am prepared this far. I am very
thankful for the courtesy extended by the committee to give me an
opportunity to begin at the beginning, and in view of your disposi-
tion to be liberal with me, as I feel, I Avisli to go over the matter in
1500 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
rather an abstract way, to give you an idea in general of the whole
situation. I shall do it as briefly as possible, and at the conclusion
I will submit my papers, such as I have.
My connection with the Kickapoo Indians and real live acquaint-
ance with them began in the winter of 1894 or 1895 ; I think it was
1891. At that time I was living at Shawnee, 40 or 50 miles inland
in Oklahoma from the railroad. The Kickapoo Indians had been, as
we called it, " forcibly allotted," and the " kicking " Kickapoos were
veiy persistent in resisting any effort the Government might make to
reconcile them to accept their land or to accept the money, $211.
They would have nothing to do with it. They were so prejudiced
against the allotment that they even would not drive on a wagon road
over land that had been allotted to them. If they had been starving
to death, they would not have signed for provisions for fear they
might be signing something that would be an acceptance. They at
that time were wild and suspicious Indians.
Senator Towksend. How many of the "kicking" Kickapoos were
there as compared with the whole number ?
Mr. BejStley. I think probably a little more than tAvo-thirds were
kickers.
The CHAimiAX. Why were they called that?
Mr. Bentley. Because they kicked against the treaty : they kicked
against the allotment. They were opposed to am^thing that the Gov-
ernment wanted them to do.
Perhaps, to illustrate to the committee why they were so strenu-
ously opposed^ I had better revert back a little further. They for a
period of 50 years had been Mexicans, practically. They were no-
madic. They occasionally made pilgi-images from Texas when it
was a part of Mexico to Kansas.
I found in getting a translation of the Spanish archives from the
State of Coahuila, which I paid for having translated, that they first
presented themselves in Mexico soliciting a grant of land in 1824,
representing that they were being oppressed by the Anglo-Saxons in
the north, and they were at that time looking for a more secluded
home. The correspondence is really very amusing. It is in great
volume.
It Avas even said of them then that they gave promise of being
industrious ; they were very sociable, etc., but among the things that
v.ere found in the archives was this statement, that the alcalde to
whom they presented their request for land reported to his sui)erior
officer that he thought the grant should be made because they would
be a protection to the capital as against the otlier Indians who were so
often hostile.
They returned, hoAvever, in about 1854 — along there, from 1846 to
1854 — and began living in the Indian Territory. All this time, of
course, from about 1850 to that date they had land in Kansas, and
they occasionally returned to it, but the country that became later
knoAvn as the Mexico Kickapoo Keservation had been always their
stopping ])lace.
At tlie outbreak of the Givil War first the North ai)]K'aled to them,
and then tlie South. They were kept in a constant state of agitation.
The Shawnees, Avho Avere their neighbors, had joined the northern
forces. The Seminoles had divided; some had gone Avith the north-
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1501
eni and some with the Confederate forces. But the kickers naturally
souf>'ht seclusion again bv going back soutli wheiv there was less
trouble.
In the fall of 1862 about a thousand Kickapoos. with probably 3,000
horses, left the neighborhood of where Shawnee. Okla., noAv is and
went into the plains of Texas. jMr, Tankersley, who is an old and
n^spected citizen of Tom Green County. knoAvs sometliing of the
history of the time tiie,y came there. He had known them a great
many years, and he was friendly with them, and he says they had
about 3.000 horses, and there were about 1,000 of them. He invited
them to stay there. The Comanches and the Kiowas had been steal-
ing his stock, and were a menace to the settlers out there.
They settled temporarily on the Little Concho River. About three
days after that a ccmipany of Confederate cavalry approached. They
inquired of Mr. Tankersley where the Kickapoos were. He said,
" You needn't bother about them ; they are friendl}'. They will be a
protection to this settlement." Tlie commander of the Confederate
cavalry said, '' AA^ell. probably their horses will be more valuable to
the Confederacy than their friendship," and they gave no further
attention to Mr. Tankersley, but followed up the Indians along the
Little Concho River.
Some northern general had told the Indians if they saw soldiers
approaching anywhere to send forAvard a white flag. So when these
Indians saw the Confederate cavalry approaching an old man with
an old squaw on each side of him walked out on the plains with a
white flag. Just as soon as they came within range all three were
shot down, and the cavalry charged the camp. Sixteen of the cavalry
were killed in a little bit, and the cavalry retreated. The Kickapoos,
of course, supposed that Texas had declared year upon them, and
they broke their camp and went across the Rio Grande into Mexico,
at Boaquilles. They Avorked their wa}'^ down the Santa Rosa Range
to the place Avhere the Mexican Kickapoo Indians now live — the old
Kickapoos — at Xacimiento. The jNIexicans found that the Kickapoos
were shrewd, intelligent men: these men here are not fair examples
of them.
They made frequent raids into Texas, never killing anybody if
they could avoid it. but the}^ stole horses and cattle. The cavalry
would get after them, and they would simply cross the river wdiere
they could not be pursued. Finally Maj. MacKenzie, who was then
stationed at Fort Brackett, became so exasperated by his frequent
chasing of these people that he finally charged across the Rio Grande
River and followed them IHO miles into the interior of Mexico, and
killed a great many of them. A soldier of that command who lives
here in Washington and is now employed in the Pension Bureau, or a
guai'd there at the Indian Office — Mr. Weaver — says they went there
to nuirder the Avhole outfit in order to put a stop to the Texans being
harassed. He says he took the first prisoner — he is available as a
witness. He says a squaw rose up out of the woods, and said, " Me
squaw: don't kill me." He said he did not have the nerve to shoot
her. and he did not, but any Indians Avho resisted force were mur-
dered. Those who did not resist, some 150. were gathered up as
prisoners and brought back and returned to this side of the river.
However, most of the tribe were ab.sent at this time. But the tepees
:;5t)()i— PT i::j— 1 4 .3
1502 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
were burned, and all their property piled in great heaps and burned.
They were brought back to Fort Brackett.
Of course families were divided. Maybe the mother and some of
the children were taken away and others were left. They were all
split to pieces. In many instances, perhaps, the mother remained
but the father followed. They assembled there at Fort Brackett.
That was in 1873.
In the fall of 1874 they were landed in what is now the Kickapoo
country in Oklahoma, and there they were practically held as pris-
oners of war, or under guard at least, in a way, until 1901. They
were allotted then, through a treaty they had never signed or had
anything to do with, and became citizens of the United States
Representative Burke. Through a treaty? What do you mean?
Mr. Bentley. I mean this: The Gerome Commission, that was
sent to treat with the Kickapoo Indians, deliberately paid a white
man $5,000 to forge their names to a treaty that was signed here at
Washington and ratified. As showing that that was an absolute and
complete forgery, I want to read briefly — as to the condition of those
people at the time this commission w^ent to treat with them — I wish
you would read the annual report of the agent at that time.
The Chairman. This is from the report of the Secretary of the
Interior, 1891.
Mr. Bentley. That gives the conditions and relates to the attempt
to make a treaty.
Representative Burke. He said there was not any treaty, and I
want to find out what he meant. This explains w^hy you said there
was no treaty?
Mr. Bentley. Yes.
The Chairman (reading) :
The past year, owing to tlie failure of crops from drought, thew were almost
in a condition of famine, several of them actually starving to death. On repre-
sentation of the facts, I obtained authority to purchase for them seven mouths'
rations out of the funds appropriated for the support of Kickapoos. After the
provisions were purchased, they actually refused to enroll for the purpose of
drawing the same, notwithstanding their starving condition, and the rations
had to be sold. The cause of this was their fear that the enrollment might in
some way serve to force an arbitrary allotment upon them.
It is extremely difficult to get them to accept any innovation into their cus-
toms and usages of living. Especially has it proven a tedious process in the
case of allotments. The Cherokee Commission met this tribe in council twice
in ]S90 and once during the present year, at all of which councils the common
result was reached — the Indians absolutely refusing to treat for the sale of the
residue as surplus lands.
At the last meeting with them the argument was presented that they were
situated on their present location merely by Executive order, a clemency that
might at any time be revoked and the same power used to remove them to other
lands; that they should take advantage of the present opportunity to secure
permanent homes and a good competence arising from the sale of the surplus.
To this they replied that the reservation was no larger than sufficient for their
needs; that to become definitely located would be to de.stroy their visiting,
feasts, and dances: that if they did not own the reservation, it would not be
right to dispo.'^e of that which did not belong to them, and if it was theirs, they
did not wish to sell. The conuuission could do nothing further with them, and
here the negotiations for the present wei'e ended.
In my o])inion, these Indians will ultim.-itely accept the propositions of the
commissioners. They are by nature so suspicions that they are slow to com-
prehend meaning and grasp situation. Rut that the opening to settlement of the
adjoining reservations already treated for and the influx of white settlers will
illustrate the error of their present ways and show them that their old tribal
relations and savage instincts are no longer best or tenable I feel confident.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1503
Eepresentative Burke. AMiat lias that to do with their not having
any treaty?
Mr. Bentley. I am going to sl;ow you now.
Eepresentative Burke. This refers to their refusal to sell their
surplus lands?
Mr. Bextley. I Avill show you where it has a direct and positive
bearing. That was the last time the Gerome Commission ever met
with those Indians, and the agent — they went West, and he completed
tiis annual report and sent it here, saying they absolutely refused to
treat. He did not even know their names. The Government of the
United States did not have the enrollment of them. Not for two or
three years after that was an enrollment ever made with their consent.
Now, the commission found they could not treat with them; they
would not sell their land. So they employed a white man, and paid
liim $5,000 of their money to commit perjury; and it was he who put
the names of 20 of them to an authorization authorizing himself and
mother man who could speak no English to come to Washington,
and the treaty was made here in the office of the Secretary of the
Interior. No Indian knew anything about it, and the man who was
tiere did not know what he Avas signing.
Senator Townsend. Who was that white man ?
Mr. Bentley. The man who came with them? John T. Hill.
Senator Townsend. He was the man who forged the names?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. The Gerome Commission provided, or the
forged treaty provided, that he should be paid $5,000 for his services,
and that is all the service he could have rendered.
Representative Burke. What is the date of that treaty?
Mr. Bentley. It is the date of that annual report.
The Chairman. 1891?
Mr. Bentley. That was about the date of it.
The Chairman. This purports on its face to have been executed
here.
Mr. Bentley. It was executed here on an authorization signed by
20 Indians down there, and those Indians never signed anything of
the kind. This man Hill just simply put their names in it, and then
he got some other person of like character to witness it. Mr. Field
was in Oklahoma City when the delegation of Indians who are set
forth to have signed it were there. He knows about it.
Whj^ I bring this to the notice of the committee now is: These
Indians have never been treated fairly by the Government of the
United States. They have been arrested and harassed all their lives.
In every treaty they have ever made they have been swindled. In
that treaty the commission says they were never entitled to that land.
They are entitled to 575,000 acres of land, yet they were told, " You
are only here by sufferance." The Government owes them nearly
$2,000,000.
From the fii-st I knew of them, and always, their life's dream has
been to return to Mexico to be reunited with their children. The first
Kickapoo Indian I ever talked with said to me — an old, decrepit
man — "If I take my allotment, do you think it may in some way
lead to my getting away from here? I love- my wife and children;
1 was taken away from them in old Mexico. My children were babies
then, but I understand now thev have children of their own. I want
1504 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
to go and see them. Can't you help me? " That is the first appeal a
Kickapoo Indian ever made to me.
Senator Toavnsend. When was that. Mr. Bentley?
Mr. Bentley. That was about the year 1892 or 1893.
Senator Townsend. Where was your home at that time?
Mr. Bentley. My home was at Shawnee, Okla.
Senator Toavnsend. How long did you live there?
Mr. Bentt^y. At Shawnee?
Senator Toavnsend. Yes.
Mr. Benti^ey. About 2-i years.
Senator Toavnsend. Where did you live prior to going to
ShaAvnee ?
Mr. Bentley. I had liA'ed in the ChoctaAv Nation and various
places in the Indian Territory. I have lived there 30 years. I went
from PennsylA^ania to the Indian Territory a great many years ago.
Senator Toavnsend. Was 1890 the first that you became interested
in the Kickajioo Indians ?
Mr. Bentley. About 1894 Avhen I became actively interested; but
I had seen an occasional Kickapoo before that time; but, as I started
to say a Avhile ago, my first active connection grcAv out of this :
The marshals used to arrest them by the Avagonload, dragging them
off to Guthrie to get fees out of them. I don't knoAv Avhat it
amounted to, but I think some $50. The Indian agent who Avas in
charge of the Kickapoos in 1905. Gen. W. L. Thomas, I believe — an
ex-Confederate general from Georgia — he made up his mind that the
only Avay to break up the Kickapoos. as he put it. was to send the
marshal there to catch their children. Naturally they Avould resist
the marshals, and that Avould Avarrant the arrest of all of them for
resisting Federal officers.
So one day the posse of marshals SAvept down on the village.
Mind you, the Indians were in this state of disaffection, owing to
the forged treaty and all this allotment agitation. They Avould not
look at a Government officer. So when the marshals Avere approach-
ing the A'illage, of course, the children scattered. The marshals
commanded the older ones to call the children in. They refused.
Finally an old grandmother. Avith a girl baby in her arms — they
tried to take it aAvay, and she fought them, and the marshal split her
head open Avith a revoh'er. and then there Avas a general melee on.
The result was that there Avere three Avagonloads of Indians, in-
cluding women and children, some tied down in the bottom of the ■
wagons, Avere brought into ShaAvnee. It Avas cold. It so happened I
that a feAv days before that a United States commissioner had been i
appointed by the Federal court, and located at ShaAvnee. They had I
pulled into ShaAvnee for shelter and to get provisions.
I approached the Avagons and asked what Avas the matter. One of
them Avho could speak a little English explained. About that time
a marshal notified me that if I did not Avant to go along Avith them I .,
had better keep aAvay from those Avagons; but I locked horns Avith (
him and insisted that under theJaAv he must take them before the
nearest commissioner. x\bout that time the United States commis-
sioner shoAved up — of course, there Avas $5 in it for each case, as far
as he Avas concerned — and he at once interested himself.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1505
Senator Towxsend. There has been a great deal said abut that, but
are you talking now from things that you can establish or simply
reciting tradition?
Mr. Bentley. These are things. I witnessed myself, things I have
testified here and at other hearings before. Tliis matter is accepted
history, only I do not go to the trouble to hunt it out of the records.
But I aui not going to dwell very long on that kind of thing, and I shall
relate nothing that I do not know from personal observation without
saying so.
Representative Bukke. You stated a moment ago that these
Indians had title to a large area of land, for which the}'' exchanged
land in Kansas, and that the Government owes them $2,000,000.
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. You also stated a little before that that
these Indians were taken from Mexico into the United States, and
finally into Oklahoma, as prisoners of war? That was the statement
you made ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. Now, did they go there as prisoners of war
or because they owned that country ?
Mr. Bentley. They were brought back to the country they had
gon£ from, which they had owned always, under military guard.
They were returned to where they belonged by military guard.
As to the question whether that was their country or not when they
left Kansas under the treaty of 1803, a provision of that treaty was
and is that they should be entitled to as much land in the Indian Ter-
ritory as their land left behind them in Kansas would purchase at
such a price as the Government might pay the five tribes for land
for the purpose of settling the friendly Indians on. and that their
land in Kansas would be computed at not less than $l.-2r) an acre. If
the proceeds of the land they left behind them had been invested in
the same character of land they would have been entitled to 575,000
acres of land instead of 206,000. but the Government denied their title
40 years later even to that, and came there and swindled them out of it
by paying 32^ cents an acre and selling it for $1.50 an acre. They
never did get out of that whole exchange but 22.000 acres until this
act Avhich brought about this appropriation. This $215,000 was the
dift'erence between 324 cents an acre and the $1.50 an acre that the
white settlers paid for the land.
Representative Burke. Your contention now is that it was the
Government of the Ignited States that Avas swindling the Indian.^!?
Mr. Bexti>ey. Through this faithless commission; yes. sir; it was.
The Chaihmax. This appropriation of $215,000 in 1008 on its face
was designed to be for the carrying out of treaties with those Indians.
You have referred to the treaty of 1863
Mr. Bentley. Yes; article 4 of that treaty.
The CHAnnrAX. Under which the Kickapoo Indians exchanged
lands in Kansas for lands in Oklahoma ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes.
The CiiAiRMAX. And this ai)propriation was intended to reimburse
them for the difference between the value of the land they actually
got
1506 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Bentley (interrupting). No; it Avas not. That was a com-
promise.
The Chairman. I say it was intended to reimburse them for the
difference between the amount they actually got and the amount they
should have got.
Mr. Bentley. No, Senator; you are mistaken.
The Chairman. Wliat was it intended for?
Mr. Bentley. The $215,000 was to pay them the difference be-
tween 32| cents an acre that the Government had allowed them and the
$1.50 an acre for the 206,000 they had given them in Oklahoma.
They were not paying them for the difference between 206,000 and
the 575,000. That never yet has been settled for. That was left out.
The Chairman. Go ahead now.
Senator Townsend. Before you leave that, were you ever employed
by the Indian office?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. In what capacity?
Mr. Bentley. As special agent of the United States.
Senator Townsend. ^^Hien was that?
Mr. Bentley. That was in 1895. I will lead up to that in a
moment.
By reason of the outrage in the attempt to rob the Indians of their
children, as I regarded it, I became strongly interested in the Kicka-
poos. They were the prey at that time of dishonest dej^uty marshals.
For instance, I have seen a marshal meet an Indian who could not
read and pull out a paper and say. '' John. I have a warrant for
you" — any old paper would do — ''what can you do about it"? The
Sac and Fox and all the Indians of those days were preyed upon by
Government officers.
I came here to Washington on my first trip in behalf of the Indians
and went to the Attorney General. I insisted it was costing the
United States more to persecute its wards down there than it w^ould
cost to support them. I made that trip here at my own expense.
But the Indians resisted allotment, and there was nobody that could
do anything with them. They settled on school land. The State of
Oklahoma had leased those lands; the lessees were demanding pos-
session, and the State was demanding of the Government that they
get the Indians off.
Tlie agent in charge had asked for the cavalry to be sent from Fort
Reno to move these Indians. Notice of that came to the attention
of President Cleveland. Mr. Field or somebody furnished the In-
dians some money, and they came on here to Washington, and the
Indians went to the President and told him their grievances, and
President Cleveland, in my presence, told them it had come to his
notice that they had been robbed and badly treated, that they had
been beaten out of their countrj'. " But," he said, " I can only relieve
you by asking Congress to give you money to help you along."
It was then that the President asked. " Is there anybody on earth
that has got any influence — that can do anything with these In-
dians— -that can reconcile them and get them to make the best of
it?" The Indians said this to the President: "AVe want an agent
of our own selection. If you will put a man in charge of us that we
know to be our friend and that we feel we are entitled to trust, Ave
will follow him. If he says it is best to go on to our land, we will go;
KICKAPOO INDIANS, 1507
if he saj's it is best for us to go to ]Mexico, we will go. We want to
have nothing to do with strangers. We wall go to Mexico unless you
put somebody in charge of us that ayc knoAV we can trust."
The President told them that if he had been lied to and robbed
us they had he thought he would want some man put in charge that
he knew, and that he Avould do that. They were very much sur-
prised, and they promised the President that if he wT)uld put me in
charge of them they would follow me. The Indian Office at that
time
Mr. TowNSEND. That was in 1894?
Mr. Bentley. That was in 1895, if my recollection is correct. It
was 1895 or 189G ; 1896, I guess it w^as.
The Indian Office was very much opposed to me. They said,
" This theory of putting men in the Indian Service because they have
influence with the Indians will disrupt the service." Of course, the
b-ervice was more to the Government than the Indians.
Well, the President had directed the Secretary of the Interior
to make the appointment, but the matter hung on for a month.
Conditions were bad in Oklahoma.
In those days there w^ere some smart men among the Kickapoos,
men v/ho were great orators. One day we went up by the White
House, and the President saw us and he called us. He said, " I
supposed you were down in Oklahoma." " No," I told him, " Mr.
President, we waited until"
Senator Townsend. I would like to know what you mean by say-
ing that President Cleveland saw ^''ou and called you into the White
House.
Mr. Bentley. We went up by there and went around by this
circle at the east entrance of the White House, and President ClcA^e-
land was — there was a place where he used to come out and air him-
self frequently in his time, and he was out there that afternoon. He
happened to be out there that day and beckoned to us, and we all
wxnt over there. Then it was that he told me to get the Indians
ready to go home, and to take a message to the Secretary of the In-
terior and say to him that if there was any reason why the arrange-
ment should not be made at once to make it known to him in
writing.
The result was that my commission issued the next day. But
just before leaving Washington a messenger came from the White
House and said that the President wanted to see me. So I went up
there, and President Cleveland told me, " You are going into the
Indian Service under trying circumstances. Everybody is preju-
diced against you and against your Indians. They Avill do every-
thing thej^ can to disgruntle the Indians and make your work a
failure. But you go down there and do your duty, and when you
can not get any further come back to me." And I made five trips
up here in one year. I kept having to come back.
And the Indian Office did everything in its power to disgruntle the
Indians. They gave me nothing to work with. They gave me a
man there who did everything on earth to see that I did not tu'com-
plish anything. A man Avho is still living, a Mr. James G. Dickson,
will testify that he was sent there deliberately to prevent me from
doing the thing that the President had sent me to do.
1508 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
I had no thought of staying there six years, but I got into this
light. The traders wanted to take half of the Indians" money. The
settlers whose homesteads were along the borders of the Kickapoos'
land went on that land and cnt their hay. They had grazed their
cattle and horses there and there was general plundering. When
we began to move these Indians down there onto their allotments
they cut our fences. The}' threw carrion in the wells. They did
everything they could to make it impossible for the Indians to live
there.
Years passed before I got out of it. but I moved the Indians down
onto their lands and I got them to work. And to-day. if they had
been left in the hands of somebody they had confidence in, they
would not be in Mexico. But those Indians could not live in Okla-
homa. If an Indian's horse got into a white man's pasture it was
$3. If a Avhite man's horse got into the Indian's fields and ate up
his crops and the Indian took it up, the white man came to the corral
and tore it up and said. ""To the devil with you. This is not an
Indian country.** The Kickapoos can not live in a country like
Oklahoma. They are not ready for any such conditions. Finally,
when I left the service
Senator Townsexd. How long did you stay in the service?
Mr. Bentley. Nearly six years.
Senator Towxsend. How' did 3'ou come to leave?
Mr. Bentley. The department had adopted a ncAv policy, and
that was to do away with Indian agents and place all the agencies
under school superintendents. There is a very complin entary letter
in tlie record from the Commissioner of Indian Affairs to me and
to others saying that there was nothing in connecti(!n with my serv-
ice to the Government that had anything to do with my office being
abolished. It was a special agency created for the Mexican Kicka-
poos, and it was abolished, and they were put back under the juris-
diction from which they were taken, Mr. Frank A. Thackery thus
succeeding me as a superintendent in charge of the Kickapoos rather
than as an agent.
In 100;5. in January, a condition came al)out tliere tliat was in-
tolerable. An Indian b}^ the name of Pah-ko-tah had been assaulted 1
by a renegade Indian, who had come to his home and beat him |
nearly to death, pulled his hair out, tramped him in the face, and |
he came to my home in the night — brought there in a wagon. I had ';
to get a surgeon to put him in a plaster cast to save his life. IMr.
Thackery was agent then. Now. the Indian who beat up Pah-ko-
tah was trying to ingratiate himself in Mr. Thackeray's good graces,
because the Kicking Kickapoos were unfriendly to Mr. Thackery
and were friendly to me, and that element that was friendly with
Thackery imposed upon our Indians.
The result was in a few months that their stock was stolen and
run off, and they fell back into the same old state of disaffection.
But this Indian — Pah-ko-tah in particular — the first one I moved
after I left the service, sad to me, "If I stay here I have got to
kill sTuielxidy. If T kill somebody in the white man's country, they
V, ill hang u e. Help me to get away."
Pah-ko-tah and his boys, after he finally got well, brought in their
farm implements and their paraphernalia. They loaded the car
themselves — loaded their mules into a car. I engaged a white man
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1509
to go along. I never had anything to do with that ti-ansaction ex-
cept I got the white man to go along to care for the nudes, as had
to be, and engaged the car.
Mr. Thackery. as agent, seized the car. and after a running fight
in the courts the mules — six of them. T think — were taken out. I
was arrested for stealing Government property, and I was indicted
for stealing Government property. I had issued the property to
those Indians and had taken a contract for the Government, which
the Indian signed, saying that he would neither sell nor trade it,
but use it for his own exclusive use. Finally the car went forward
with Pah-ko-tah's wagons and his harness, but the mules were left
behind. Then the military authorities were appealed to at the
border. From that time and for six years more it was a running
fight. I was indicted. The Indians were jailed. We were dragged
from pillar to post. Probably the greatest outrage that was done
to the Indians was following the act of 1906. of which Air. Field has
testified to son e extent to-day before the other committee. I do not
know whether this investigating committee wants, me to go into that
or not, but I will say this in an abstract way. I will try to tell my
story shortly, because I have to tell it again before the other coni-
mittee probably in self-defense.
Four times I came before committees of this Congress, as the rec-
ords will show, telling Senators and Congressmen that these were
Mexican Indians: that they w^ere born in Mexico — all who were over
the age of 20 years when they were allotted in 1893; that they spoke
the Mexican language; that their life's dream was to go back to
Mexico and to be reunited there ; and that my purpose was. if it was
a proper thing to do. to aid them to go back.
The Ciiair:sian. Now. if that is true, how did it happen they came
to Oklahoma from Kansas and had lands in Kansas to exchange for
lands in Oklahoma ?
Mr. Bentley. I will make that clear to you. This element of the
tribe now known as the Mexican Kickapoos were absentees of the
Kickapoos. The Kickapoos first had in Missouri 1.800.000 acres
that was given to them and their heirs forever. They had exchanged
that for 1.200 square miles of country in Kansas. Now. the whole
Kickapoo Tribe did that: but even in that time these pilgrimages
were made. They are a wandering peo])le. Even now a band may
go off and be gone three or four years.
They came to Kansas and they did not like it there. They had
never lived regularly anywhere, and that element that became known
later as the Mexican Kickapoos were the element that refused to take
a diminished reserve, and they sold 000.000 acres to the United States.
But the treatv provided that those who went south — that, of course,
ahvays moaninix those wanderers who went to ^Mexico and returned
occasionally — sliould Ix' given certain quantity of land in the Indian
Territory for the land thev had left behind in Kansas. However,
they had been Mexican subjects, born in Mexico — most of them — and
lived there more or less. Yet all this time they visited back and forth,
and up to the time T took charge of them they had never had any
settled place of abode.
Senator Towxsexd. Did the Kickapoos first conse from Mexico or
from the United States?
1510 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Bexti.ey. nh. no; they came from right near here and worked
their way west. They were American Indians, but probably as early
r.s 1700 those Kiolcapoos were living in Mexico, as did the Shawnees.
The vShawnees. back as far as 1750, made pilgrimages to where Mexico
City now is. In Chihnahna there are the old ruins left by the Shaw-
nees that were there. Many of them were born in Mexico.
Inspector Zevely — who, I think, is considered among the very
reliable inspectors — says in his reports, as late as about 1898, that
the Kickapoo Indians had been nomadic up to the time I took charge
of them. They had been wanderers on the face of the earth. Even
there on that little reservation they lived in one place in the summer
and another place in, the winter. They had no fixed place of abode;
they were wanderers. Inspector Zevely, who was a special inspector
of the Interior De]^artment, was sent to Oklahoma to report to the
Secretary of the Interior the progress that the Kickapoo Indians in
my charge were making. Mr. Brosius had reported to the Govern-
ment over his own signature that I was driving these Indians off
their allotments, discouraging them, and had gotten them into a state
of disaffection. After that report I wrote to Commissioner Jones,
and I asked Mr. Field, who was then attorney for the Indians, to see
if there was not some other person, somebody in the service of the
United States who had the confidence of the department, who would
come and investigate.
Because, gentlemen, at that time, I say to you as men in all sin-
cerity, that what tlie Government of the United States had always
sought to do for tlie Indians I was doing. I was bending every
energy of my life, an.d I was a strong man then. I had these Indians
at work on their land. They were building fences, digging wells,
planting orchards. They were drifting in the direction that it is
always claimed the Government wanted them to do. And not with-
standing these growing orchards, these wheat fields, and these splen-
did homes, here was the agent of the Indian Rights Association re-
porting the opposite of that, sending to the Secretary of the Interior
forged council proceedings with 30 or 40 Indians' names to it, and it
is in that report [indicating the Senate hearings of 1907] that no
Indian whose name was said to be signed to it ever saw it.
I was being charged Avith those things by this agent of the Indian
Rights Association. Inspector Beede, who is well known to every-
body in the department, the oldest inspector in the service, investi-
gated every one of Mr. Brosius's charges, and he said that he found
I was doing a grand Avork among those Indians. He found that I
Avas honest Avith them : that I Avas diligent, and that I Avas accomplish-
ing the things that the Government sought to do. Still Mr. Brosius
persisted that nothing Avas being accomplished; that my office ought
to be abolished: and. finally, so much confusion grew out of it that
the Secretary of the Interior did not send an ordinary inspector.
Mr. Zevely is a lawyer and a big man, and, I believe, an honest man.
And [addressing Mr. Brosius] in the face of your charges that I
was driving those Indians oft' their allotments, Avhen you well knew
that not one of them Avho Avas not a kicker liA^ed upon his allotment
prior to my appointment
Mr. Brosii's. I do not recollect that statement.
Mr. Bentley. I have a perfect right to make it.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1511
The Chairman. You may go ahead and make your statement. You
need not make any personal reflections.
Mr. Bextley. Pardon me if I have digressed. Mr. Zevely reported
as follows:
When Mr. Bentley took charge of these bands about four years ago none of
them were on allotments and nojie of them were improving lands. They werfr
in a primitive state and still pursuing their nomadic habits. I have driven
over the Kickapoo Keservation and I find a great many of them with improvements
of their own, having their allotments fenced with good wire fences, which have
been built by the Indians themselves, and nearly every one of them cultivating
their own farms. In driving over the reservation I came in contact with
many of these Indians who were in their fields plowing and otherwise prepar-
ing the soil for seed. As far as I could determine, they seemed to be indus-
trious and anxious to progress in their woi'k. The farmer, Mr. Clark, advises
me that he has little trouble with them, and that they are all anxious to
make progress in the matter of tilling their lands. Inquiry from many of the
leading citizens of Shawnee develops the fact that Mr. Bentley has great influ-
ence with these Indians, and has succeeded to a remarkable degree in inducing
them to go to their allotments and make homes for themselves. I think Mr.
Bentley's usefulness to the Kickapoos has been very great. He seems to take
a deep interest in their welfare, and has probably been successful beyond what
any other man would have been with the Kickapoos. (P. 1661, Senate hear-
ings of 1907.)
The Chairjiax. When was that report made?
Mr. Bentley. I think it was 1898.
The Chairiman. Does not the document you are reading from show
the date of it ? _
Mr. Bentley. I think it does. It is a quotation from tlie records
there. It will be found on page 1661 of the Affairs of the Mexican
Kickapoo Indians, Senate Document 215, Sixtieth Congress, first
session.
The Chairman. Were you down there when Mr. Zevely visted the
Kickapoo Indians and made that investigation upon which his report
is based ?
Mr. Bentley. I think I was.
The Chairman. Did you see him?
Mr. Bentley. I saw Mr. Zevely the day that he left ShaAvnee.
The Chairman. Did you see him while he was making the investi-
gation, while he was going over the Kickapoo lands?
Mr. Bentley. Only one time. The day that Mr. Zevely left he sent
for me, and I went to the hotel, and he told me that he had practically
concluded his investigation. He had been there a week. But he
said that he might overlook something that I would want him t®
have seen, and it was only fair to me that I be given an opportunity
to show him anything.
The Chairman. Did you show him anything?
Mr. Bentley. I drove him that day 22 miles. I think, or about 20
miles, and showed him different things that he had not seen, and
explained to him my policy and what I expected to accomplish.
The Chairman. Did he tell you what he was going to report?
Mr. Benti.ey. No, sir; I had not any idea in the world, except this:
"V^Tien I drove him to the train — he took the train at McLoud, Okla.,
I think. Anyway. I did not drive him back to Shawnee. And I said
to him, " Now, Mr. Zevely, you have seen for yourself and I have
tried to show you what I am doing here. T hope if you can suggest
1512 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
any better pltiii that you will do it. I am here wantino- to do the best
I can for the Indians."
Representative Carter. Was this while you were agent?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Brosius. Might I ask the date of that letter?
Senator Townsend. April 17, 1900.
Mr. Brosiits. I mean the letter that I wrote.
The Chairman. Can you give him the date of the letter you re-
ferred to as having been written by Mr. Brosius ?
Mr. Brosius. He spoke of Mr. Zevely having been down there in
1908.
Representative Burke. Did vou mean 1908 or 1898?
Mr. Bentley. 1898.
Representative Burke. It was 1900 then?
Mr. Bextley. It was Mr. Beede that was there then.
The Chairman. It was in 1900, then, instead of 1908?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; and it was the other inspector, Mr. Beede,
who was there.
Mr. Brosius. Inspector Zevely, then, had nothing to do with the
report I made?
Mr. Benti>ey. I think the investigation grew out of your charges.
Mr. Be^de investigated the charges by Mr. Brosius, which are very
lengthy, and reported. It was persisted by some that Mr. Brosius's
report was still true, and the Secretary of the Interior was disposed,
even with Mi'. Beede's report, to feel that there was some mistake.
Then he sent another inspector
Representative Carter. \M:ien was Mr. Brosius's report made?
Mr. Bentley. I will find it in a moment.
Representative Burke. The Zevely report was made entirely with
reference to the misappropriation of some checks, was it not?
Mr. r)ENTLEY. I do not think so, but I am not sure. As I under-
stood it, he was sent there to see what progress the Kiekapoos were
making. He may have had something else ■
Representative Burke. Just to refresh your memory [reading] :
This invesligiitioii \v;is oeensioned by report made by Inspeetor Nesler made
some time in 1S!)7 or I89.S, in wliic-li he detailed a i-umor which had come to his
ears wliile at Sliawiiee. in Oklahoma, to the effect tliat Martin ,T. Bentley. now
acting Indian ajient foi- the Kiekapoos. and W. S Field had. Ity false rejiresen-
tations made to the Indians, secured practically all of the checks issued at
that payment. (I'. 1661, Senate hearings of IdOl.)
That was what he was investigating.
Mr. Bentley. I did not know that at tiie time, or I had forgot-
ten. I had nothing to do with any such i)ayment.
The CiiAiRiMAN. Then the letter to wdiich lie refers was probably
of date September 8. 1898.
Mr. Brosius. Then, from the conversation we have had since, you
will admit Mr. Zevely had nothing to do with reporting on the
charges I made?
Mr. BentlI'^y. I suppose, as I have stated, tlie Beede report — ■
there was a deadly parallel between your report and the Beede re-
port. Mr. Beede investigated your charges, and there was a conten-
tion that he might have been mistalven. There seemed to be still
some lingering doubt
Representative Cartk.h. AVho was (he conlention by?
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1513
Mr. Benti.ky. It was in the departnioiit when I came here and
reported — the employees and in a general way — —
Representative Carter. You do not know of any sj>ecific person
that made that contention i
Mr. Bentley. The Indian Office officials
Representative Carter. That is not very specific.
Mr. Bentley. Mr. Tonner.
Representative Burke. In order to keep the record straight, the
report that Mr. Beede made October 3. 1898, addressed to the Secre-
tary of the Interior, says :
Refeiriug to your letter of the 10th of September last, transmitting letters
from S. M. Brosius, making certain charges against Assistant Special Agent
M. J. Rentley. of the Sac and Fox Agency, supporting tlie same by alfidavits,
you ask that I uuike a very careful and thorough investigation of the charges
made by Mr. Brosius, and also investigate Mr. Bentley's manner of performing
his official duties, generally ;ind in detail. (Senate Hearings of 1907, p. 2039.)
Mr. Bentley. Of cotirse, I am free to say that the investigation by
Mr. Zevely may not have come directly from the Brosius charges,
but it may have had some effect.
Mr. Brosius. Ten years afterwards?
Mr. Bentley. Oh. two years.
Mr. Brosius. I thought you said 1908.
Representative Bitrke. He has corrected that.
Senator Townsend. That is not material, anyway, that I can see.
Mr. Bentley. I do feel that I am entitled to read a little of that
report of Mr. Beede's, .since there is a positive parallel drawn here.
This man reported one thing and the investigating officer reports
squarely opposite.
The Chairman. The particular subject matter of this investiga-
tion is the administration of that fund of $215,000.
Mr. Bentley. That is true.
The Chairman. While I do not want to deprive you of the privi-
lege of stating anything you feel you ought to state in connection
with it, I would like to draw^ your attention to the fact that we
should like to get doAvn to the particular subject as soon as possible.
Mr. Brosius. May I say a w'ord here before the witness commences
reading? If this report is read, then I shall ask to have inserted in
the record certain other reports that are opposed to Mr. Bentley's
report. Inspector Nesler's report. Inspector McComas's report, and,
I think, one or two more.
Senator Townsend. You are going to be heard on that, are you
not, Mr. Brosius?
Mr. Brosius. I do not suppose I shall have much to say.
Representative Birke. There seem to have been three volumes of
testimony taken wdien we went into this subject that Mr. Bentley has
talked about thus far on the hearings before a Senate subcommittee
that visited Oklahoma. Now^ if we are going to go into that again
we ought to go at it systematically, and I understand that it is not
your intention to do so. What we are after is the $215,000 appro-
priation and w^hat became of it, is it not. Mr. Chairman?
The Chair:sian. Yes.
Representative Burke. And this statement he is making is pre-
liminary to what he is going to tell us about that?
1514 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
The Chairman. That is my uiiderstaiiding. He stated in the be-
ginning he would make a preliminary statement.
Representative Burke. So if he wants to put something in from
the Beede report, I do not know that there is any objection.
Mr. Bentley. I desire to state at this time that the reason that I
have reverted to the various charges and the Beede report is that it
is a charge filed before this joint commission at this time by Mr.
Brosius that is the occasion of this hearing. I am charged with ex-
ploiting the Kickapoo Indians and doing numerous disreputable
things in connection with them. Therefore I feel it proper that I
should call to the notice of the committee the fact that there had
been a long, persistent prejudice and fight and opposition to me by
Mr. Brosius. Surely he was not my fi-iend, or he would not have
brought these charges here. I am certain that he is not a friend to
the Indians from his acts in the past. I have been opposed b}^ him
all these years in everything I did. But for that reason I should
not have taken up the time of this committee to refer to Mr. Brosius.
Mr. Beede, in concluding his report to the Secretary of the Interior,
says, in reference to the charges brought by Mr. Brosius (Affairs of
the Mexican Kickapoo Indians, vol. 3, p. 2042) :
I have thus gone through with the testimony actually taken in Mr. Bentley's
case, but may say that numbers of men that I believe bear good reputations
have stood ready and evinced a willingness to testify to Mr. Bentley's integrity
and efficiency, as well as absolute devotion to his wards. If an Indian is in
trouble, he goes to the rescue. He furnislies his own means of transportation;
has, 1 am told, worn out one buggy in the service; he furnishes his own office
by securing a desk in an office of a generous man of the town. He can not be
with the Indians and also attend to the clerical work of the office. He employs
an Indian clerk at his own expense, and. what is peculiar about him, he em-
ploys one of his enemies, who gave testimony sustaining the charges of Mr.
Brosius, as his confidential clerk. (He carries his office papers in his satchel
to and from home every day.) I called uix)n his clerk to testify, and his testi-
mony appears on page 15. I have been over the lands and observed them
along the road as much as I felt that my time would permit. In one inclosure
of Kicking Kickapoos I find a good pasture located close to tov/n, where the
stock of the townspeople is pastured at a certain price per head. In another
is cultivated ground; in another is a hayfield, with large stacks of hay ready
for market; in one close by town is a race course and fair ground leased by
the Indian : also, the circus managers desiring to show in Shawnee must pay
tribute to a Kicking Kickapoo for a place to hold forth near town. I have
myself seen these Indians in town during my short stay with wagons loaded,
or partly loaded, with something to sell. I believe Mr. Bentley to be very
particular that the lease money goes into the hands of the Indians, and that,
■while he goes personal security for the payment of purchases made by the
Indians, he will not even retain the money of the Indians when in his hands to
secure himself.
It may, with a good deal of propriety, be ;isked. Why will Mr. Bentley so
interest 'himself on the behalf of those Indians on a salary of $1,200? I be-
lieve this question can only be answered, so far as anything has come under
my observation, that in the better sense of the term he is an Indian " crank " ;
and my impression now is decidedly that he should not be interfei'ed with by
the Sac and Fox agent in any wise; that his employees should be absolutely
under his own control and paid by himself. To illustrate: The Sac and Fox
agent, employing tb.e farmer .and detailing hiui for Mr. Bentley's use, can exer-
cise an influence over him very jn-e.iudicial to Mr. Bentley's management. He
can call him away at pleasure, as he has done now, probably to settle with
him at the close of the qu;:i'ter; but it should take but two days for this, and
even this time might nol lie lost were Mi-. Bentley paymaster for his own em-
ployees. And in the detail of a policeman, Mr. I*atrick sends an Indian who
has served a term in the iienitentiary for stealing from a Kicking Kickapoo,
and, of course, he can be of no service among the Kickapoos.
jM
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1615
RefeiTing to the latter part of your iustriiccions. tbat 1 furuisli you with u
detailed statement showing what Mr. ISeutley's verified statement, made under
my own supervision, which is believed to account for every Kicking Kickapoo
and very many of tiie progressives:
I am of the opinion that Mr. Bentley is doing a grand work for these Indians,
and I fear it is hardly appreciated. He shorld, in my judgment, be liberally
supported. I think the testimony will convince the honorable Secretary that
the charges against ilr. Bentley are not sustained. I recommend that in the
interest of the service and in justice to Mr. Bentley that he be allowed a clerk,
an oilice, and a team and buggy, and that he have entire charge of all the
Kicking Kickapoos, and also the progressive Kickapoos, including their lands,
leasing, etc.
I am, very respectfully, your obedient servant,
CVKL'S Beede.
United States Imlian Inspector.
It was only about that time that the Shawnees Avere eager — the
" kicking " Shawnees were eager — to get under my jurisdiction. I
liked the Indian j^eople, I worked with them. I know them. And I
want to say that when I took charge of these Indians I was mayor
of a city that soon thereafter became the second city of the State of
Oklahoma. I was confidential agent to the general manager of a
railroad. I had 43 annual passes in my pocket, and could go from one
end of this broad land to the other. I had Pullman and Wagaer
passes, and Western Union, Adams Express, and Pacific Express.
I could ship express all over the country for nothing. Surely nobody
thinks a man would give up a position like that to go and take a job
at $1,200 a year unless he felt some intense interest in it.
That intense interest came from this: I lived in Oklahoma before
a white man had acquired a foot of land there. I had been an ob-
server of Indians in other States, and I had always believed, md I
believe now, the reason the Indians make no progress is the fault of
the Government and not of the Indians. Unless the Indian was
superior to any other known kind of man he could not succeed. His
hands are tied. You send failures among him to teach him success.
I had believed that the Indian was susceptible of acquiring the iiabit
of labor, and even at a large financial loss I demonstrated that. I
took the meanest, wildest, and most suspicious Indian, and in three
or four years, by persistence, by my kindly treatment toward liini, I
succeeded in creating within him a habit of labor. AYhen the spring
time came he would go and plow as the other farmers did.
But why? I was interested in him. I was his friend, and he
knew it. The Indian, gentlemen, has a sense of intuition that few
white men have. He can not understand your language; he must
understand your face. A condition came in Oklahoma that I saw the
Kickapoo must leave there or perish. The traders were skinning
them alive. And these Indians that I have been directly responsible
for — while 92 per cent of the Pottawatomies' lands are gone and 70
per cent of the Shawnees' lands have passed to white ownership, of
that whole original allotment 85 per cent in area and 95 per cent in
value had gone to white ownership. AVould I be awake to the in-
terests of the Indian if I let him remain in a condition where he was
going to be shrouded in a maze of Indian Office red tape, that the
Indian agent might hold him while his trader friends peeled him?
Mr. Thackery. I did not have any traders.
Mr. Bentley. I am not referring to you. 1 refer to the Indian
situation generally.
1516 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
The Kickapoo Indians for whom I have been responsible have 70
per cent of their hind yet. I began in 1903 and 1901. I knew the
Government owed them large sums of money, and I led the work to
ultimately get the Government to pay them that, and ultimately to
get from the Government of the United States enough money to
secure for them a home in Mexico. But that became impossible.
These various acts of Congress were passed. At all times I came
here honestly and openly. At the hearings upon which the act ap-
propriating $215,000 and the act of June 22, 1906, were founded, days
were spent by the full committee of the Senate on that matter. Con-
gressman Slayden and prominent citizens were called to testify as
to the character of the land. Mr. Thackery participated in those
hearings. Mr. Leupp participated.
I Avant to read briefly from this record to show that there has been
no underhanded business here. This has been a wide-open book.
Everybody understood it but the Indian Office; they could never
understand it.
Representative Bikke. This is the act of 1900 you are talking
about ?
Mr. Be:ntley. This is the act of 1906.
Eepresentative Bukke. Before you read from the hearings, who
initiated the act of 1906, if you know ? Not from hearsay, but what
do you know about it ?
Mr. Bentley. I think perhaps it was on my motion that the first
hearings were had, and I was very persistent in trying to get that
act. At the hearing which is found on pages 1950 to 1965 of the
affairs of the ^lexican Kickapoo Indians, under date of March 24,
1906. this occurred before the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs :
Senator McrrMBEU. This Iiulhiu liere said that tlieir children died very
rapidly in this country. i\nd that they lived longer down there.
Mr. Thackery. The real reason is probably this, that there is more game
there, and that they can live as Indians.
Mr. Bkntlev. Is not that a good reason?
Senator IMcCltmber. If you give them " Indian conditions," they will be all
right, for we certainly have not improved the Indian with all our civilization.
He was at heart a better Indian when he was alone and lived as an Indian.
Mr. Thackery. I am satisfied that those who are there expected to get this
land and hold it in cununou. That will not be the case, however. They will
soon be siu-rounded there by white men. I believe they have a right as indi-
vidual citizens to go where they ple:!se, but, as an officer of the Government, I
would like to see that they are protected. If they are going to have title there,
let them get a proper title.
;Mr. Bentley. The Indian is as sensible as you are that the white race will
follow him across the Rio Grande, and. realizing this cpndition, he had selected
an ideal place for his home, which, however, we were not a])le to secure.
This land That they had been hoping to secure is land that they themselves
have selected. It is land that the older ones among them have known for 40
years. It is an enormous liasin surrounded by high and rugged mountains and
"by a country that can never be occupied by white men. It is conglomerate
aiid limestone, and the same character of country as found across the Rio
Grande River in Texas. This basin contains 23S.O00 acres of fine grazing and
farming land, with numerous wells and artificial lakes, and now has grazing
upon it more than 10,000 white-faced catrle. Two hundred and fifty head of
American horses are <tn it, with several thousand goats in the mountains. The
canyons are timbered with linwood and hard maple and timlxM- that is indi-
genous to New York and Vermont. The natural increase of these cnttle would
pi-ovidc the Indians with their beef, and th(>y wotihl never miss it. The sur-
I)lus cattle that would be annually sold would provide for their limited neces-
sities, other than the farm products they would raise. Were they permitted
to aciinire this property, as I have stated before, these Indians would have a
home and bind long after the other Indians in this country will have nothing.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1517
Senator McCumbeb. There will be electric- railroads there after awhile
Mr. BexNtley. Not in that conglomerate country, sir. There are some very
rich silver mines in the mountains surroundiiii; that property, but I do not think
the miners would ever trouble the Indians. We might supplv them with beef
There is only one disadvantage in that section of country in\AIexico for cattle
raising. The grasses are flue and nutritious, but when cattle are raised at an
Jo'nnn f 5'^^ ^'^^ """'^ '''''' *^^" ^^^^'' '^*^^^'" ^'^ the railroads at an altitude
of 2,000 feet, they become subject to the Texas fever and often die This tract
of land that the Kickapoos want to have for their permanent home raises as
fine cattle as are raised in the world, and they would not have to irrigate the
laud there to raise wheat. But that has been bevond our means so far This
country is 175 miles off the railroad. The basin there is mesquite grass and
is beautiful grazing country. I think the Indians could live there indefinitely
and I do not know any other place so suitable for Indians.
Mr. Thackery. I might state, in conclusion, that the feeling I have as an
officer ot the Interior Department is that the matter of this emigration of these
Kickapoos, in reality, is backed by a desire on the part of certain people to
acquire title to their lands over in Oklahoma. If I am wrong in that the whole
matter is jiractically over with me. I feel that there is such a desire to move
these people with the ultimate view to getting that land.
Mr. Thackery. May I interrupt just a moment?
Mr. Bextley. Certainlj-.
Mr. Thackery. This evidence that he is reading from now Avas a
heanng on the question of whether or not the act of 1905, the year
before, shoukl be repealed. The Interior Department had asked 'that
this Item m the Indian bill removing the restrictions from those
seven valuable allotments, six of which were near the city of Shawnee
be repealed. We asked that that item be repealed so that the Secre-
tary would not have to issue those seven patents. That act, as you
recall, was mandatory. Up to this time he had not issued them and
asked the repeal of that act so that he would not have to issue them
Representative Carter. The Secretary did that ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir ; and this hearing was on that question.
Representative Bjjrke. Are those the seven allotments with refer-
ence to which the Indian appropriation act of that year provided
for the removal of restrictions, and it was alleo:ed later that the pro-
visions were incorporated in the bill without the knowledge of either
the House or Senate conferees and were supposed to have been put
in after the conference report was made and before the bill was
enrolled ?
Mr. Thackery. That is the item exactly.
The Chairman. By whom?
Representative Burke. Nobody ever knew.
Mr. Thackery. It was slipped in mysteriously.
(Representative Burke here made an informal statement which the
.reporter was directed not to take.)
I Mr. Bentley. Xow, gentlemen. I want to satisfy vou in one minute.
, Air. Thackery. May I finish? I was called before the Senate
jcomimttee as a witness, as I recall it. Commissioner Leupp was
I' here at the time. We had both been urging that this amendment
I »e repealed. What I want clear in the record is that the evidence
I lie IS reading now was not in reference to the act of 1906. And I
i did not know at that time, and I did not know when I was in Mexico
[lafter the act of 190G had passed, that the committee or any other
j<TOveriimei)t authority had agreed upon any pool. I took "the act
iior what it said. I knew nothing about anyagreement that was not
I SnCOl— PT 1 3—1 4 i
1518 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
named in the act, and I acted accordingly. I did not know, Mr.
Bentley, of the agreement which you are^ attempting to have the
committee understand now was for this pool, that because I was
there at this time I knew of the pool and all that as discussed by
the committee. There is no such understanding.
The Chairman. ^Ir. Burke, you started to say something— —
Representative Bukke. Just a word, so you will have this clear
in your mind. It appears that these seven instances in the act of
1905 were put in surreptitiously. I asked who was responsible for
that, and he says he supposes that he was. This act of 1906 provides
that:
All restrictions as to sale and eueumbraiic^' of all lands, inherited and other:
wise, of all adnlt Kickayoo Indians, and of all Shawnee, Delaware, Caddo, and
Wichita Indians who have heretoft)re been or are now known as Indians of
said tribes, affiliating with said Kickapoo Indians now or hereafter nonresi-
dent in the United States, who have been allotted land in Oklahoma or Indian
Territory, are hereby removed.
Representative Carter. That rem<)^'ed all restrictions?
Mr. Burke. That removed all restrictions.
Mr. Bentley. No, indeed; that was not intended.
Representative Burke. I do not know what was intended, but it
did that.
Representative Carter. That is the act under which the lands
were really sold?
Representative Burke. That is the act, when these fellows went
down there and began buying these lands wholesale, which resulted
in this investigation.
Mr. Bentley. They did not buy them.
Representative Burke. They got title to them.
Mr. Bentley. I do not think anybody had any thought for a
moment of any other than the Kickapoos, and the Delawares who
had always been affiliated with them, and a few Shawnees. It was
intended that those who has been with them and who had been af-
filiating with them there might return.
Representative Burke. I should like to get your version of that
legislation which you say you are responsible for namely, removing
the restrictions absolutely.
Mr. Bentley. Well, as to the language. Chairman Sherman of
the House committee changed that langiuige in conference to meet
the very thing you are talking about so that it would not apply tOj
any Indian not affiliated with the Kickapoos. If he was lawyer
enough to do that, he did it, because there was no intention to turn
them loose.
Now, if the Committee will bear with me for a moment, I want to
show you
Representative Carter. That is all Mr. Burke says. He does not
claim that the resident Indians who were in the United States under
this act — the act is plain — would have their restrictions, and all
of them who were nonresident, to wit, the Mexican Kickapoos who
were under your charge —
Mr. Bentley. And those who were affiliated with them.
Representative Carter. And you tell us you were responsible for
that act and you wanted to protect the Indians?
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1519
Mr. Bentley. Surely.
Eepresentative Carter. You thought it was protection to the
Indian to remove his restrictions completely?
Mr. Bentley. No. With this very statement — and you will find
it elsewhere in the record — these Indians, had the department let
them stay away and let them alone, would have been on the upgrade
to-day. These men who followed them to Mexico — 4, 5, 6, or 8 land
buyers — that would not have been in contention. The Interior
Department or tlie Indian Office prevented the American consul
from going there to their camp and taking acknowledgments, and
they put a Federal officer there to throw me into prison. They took
the Indian by the nape of the neck
Mr. Thackery. What Government officer?
Mr. Bentley. Mr. Outcelt. There is no use of any controversy
hetween us as to that. My assertion is that he did do it, and I will
prove it to you by the record. My assertion is that when these In-
dians were arrested and brought to the house in Muzquiz, out in the
suburbs of the city of Muzquiz, they were incarcerated in that yard
like a drove of hogs; that a watchman stood at the gate all day
long with a shotgun; that when 14 of these Kickapoos who had
been held in prison for 14 days importuned by the United States
attorney, Mr. Outcelt, he said, " If you will ask your people to sign
this for me I will turn you loose."
The Chairman. If this legislation had not been passed that would
not have been possible, and it would have done no good to intimidate
them.
Mr. Bentley. Senator, if the Department of the Interior and the
Indian Office had not substituted their judgment for that of Con-
gress it could not have happened. As I will show, Mr. Leupp came
before the committee and agreed to this, that if Congress would do
this it would demonstrate whether I had been guilty or whether the
officers of the department had been guilty. Somebody apparently
was doing a terrible wrong. But now, a month before that act
passed, in anticipation of this act, here went the officers of the Indian
Office down there to be on the ground and carefully lay their plans
to see that the Indian did not get the benefit of the intention of Con-
gress and the law.
The Chairman. What officers?
Mr. Bentley. Mr. Outcelt and IMr. Thackery, Senator,
Representative Carter. You have not answered the chairman's
question. The chairman wants to know if it would have been pos-
sible to have robbed these Indians if it had not been for the passage
of this act?
Mr. Bentley. No; neither would it have been possible for him to
have acquired a home in Mexico unless it was by the exchange of
his land. But when, as shown by these three volumes here, they had
me, as their attorney and agent, to come here before the committees
of Congress to secure a direct appropriation paying the Kickapoos
for claims growing out of the last treaty they had made with the
United States '
Reprc'^entative Burke. What treaty arc you referring to ?
Mr. Bentley. The last treaty the Kickapoos ever made with the
United States. It was made in 1891, I believe.
1520 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
ReiDresentative Burke. That is not the treaty made by some men
who came here and forged the names?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; that is the one. That is the last one.
Representative Burke. You w^ant to sustain your contention by
that treaty ?
Mr. Bentley. No. I want to make this clear to the committee
Representative Burke. You said a moment ago, in the early part of
your remarks, that there v;as no treaty. I asked you what you
meant, and 3^ou said it was a forged treaty. Now you are starting out
to make an argument, predicating it upon that treaty.
Mr. Bentley. It was called a treaty, but in fact it never was a
treaty. Congress ratified it, and it served the purpose of a treaty.
I can only refer to it as a treaty. But the point I want to make there
is this:
This document (S. Doc. No. 350, GOth Cong., 1st sess.) is the argu-
ment I made before a subcommittee of the Senate presenting the
claim of the Kickapoos growing out of these certain treaty relations,
showing that the Government owed these Indians other large sums
of money on various treaties. And, in view of the fact that at the
time, so far as we knew, the Indians had been robbed of their land,
and through the connivance, we believed and now assert, of Federal
officers
Mr. Thackery. Who was it?
Mr. Bentley. Mr. Outcelt. As to that, the committee investi-
gating the affairs of these Indians down there in their report say
they found that the robbers who robbed the Kickapoos were mate-
rially aided by Mr. OutceU and by yourself. I do not mean to say
that you went down there deliberately to help rob the Kickapoos
Mr. Thackery. I would like to have that finding read, please.
Mr. Bentley. I will read it to you in just a moment.
(Here followed a short informal discussion which the reporter was
directed not to take.)
Mr. Bentley. Gentlemen, if you will hear me just a moment:
Wliile this matter of the act of 1005, about this amendment which
had gone through without consideration, is a mystery, fortunately it
is a nu'stery that no doubt can be cleared up. Congressman Stephens
was one of the conferees, I think, at that time on that bill. There was
a circumstance in connection with that that will show you it was con-
sidered in committee, and carefully considered.
Commissioner Leupp was so insanelv prejudiced against me that the
man's eyes turned green when he looked at me. He would actually
take the fidgets. Somebody phoned to him and told him I was
in there before the committee — the Senate committee — and he came
rushing over with a cane in one hand and his hat in the other. And
he rushed in before the committee and delivered himself of one of the
most excited speeches you could think of — so I was told by members;
I was not present, but Mr. Stephens will recall it. He condemned me
for everything, I guess, a man could, and referred to the Quapali
item. lie never said anything about the Kickapoos, and when he
Avas through he grabbed his hat with the same excitement and rushed
(>ut. And the former delegate from Oklahoma, Dave Harvey, Avas
down here all winter to get some iteui about the Quapahs in the bill,
and they knocked that off, and it lost him his winter's Avork. Mr.
Leupp never touched the thing he came to talk about at all.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1521
The Chairman. You have not staled anythino; that shows thafe
anyone knew that the provision reUiting to the Kickapoos
Mr. Bentley. "Why, the members, Senator, knew it. It was dis-
cussed with Stewart and Pettigrew.
Eepresentative Burke. ^Yho discussed it? "Who put it in?
Mr. Bentley. I discussed it with all of them. I did not know
there was any secret about it.
The CiiAiRiiAN. "Were you the author of the provision in the act
of 1905 removing the restrictions?
Mr. Bentley. Just exactly as I wrote it and gave it to Senator
SteAvart.
Eepresentative Blrke. That was put in the Senate bill before it
passed the Senate, was it?
Mr. Bentley. I can not be sure as to that ; I do not know whether
it was or not.
EepresentatiA^e Burke. But it was in the law when the law was
signed ?
Mr. Bentley. I know it was talked about in conference.
Eepresentative Burke. The conferees could not put it in.
Mr. Bentley. I don't know as to that. I know it was talked
about in committee. I know it was talked about before the conferees,
because I was in there. Mr. Stephens will recall that I came in
there and asked about it. It was in the bill in conference, I know.
Eepresentative Burke. You initiated the act of 1905. which re-
moved the restrictions as to those seven particular Indians, and also
the act of 1906, which removed the restrictions as to all Indians affili-
ated with the Mexican Kickapoos at that time?
Mr. Bentley. Yes. sir. That is, with others, I did my best to get
the legislation.
Eepresentative Burke. I wish you would go ahead and state
what you did after that was done. State the transactions with refer-
ence to the lands that were conveyed to you as trustee, or to your wife
as trustee. In the first place, why were not all the conveyances made
to you as trustee and why was your wife made trustee?
Mr. Bentley. In two of the instances — Mrs. Bentley is well
known to the Indians. She has doctored them and their children.
They have been about my home for years and years. She has been
a mother to some of them. They themselves wanted to deed their
land to her.
Eepresentative Carter. Eather than to you?
Mr. Bentley. No; I did not want them to deed it to me. Mr.
"W. "W. Ives, of Kokomo. Ind.. was selected as the trustee to take
those titles, for the reason that he comes from one of the cleanest
families in the world. I believe.
The Chairman. Who selected him?
Mr. Benti.ey. I did. I induced him to come, because he was a
man financially responsible. There is a family that there never
has been a. blot on. Members of Congi-ess were called before the
Senate committee, when these acts were under consideration, as to
the character of Ives.
The Chairman. Had he any connection with the Mexican Kick-
apoo matters or other Indian matters?
Mr. Bentley. No. sir ; and never since.
Mr. Thackery. AVasn't he connected with four or five contests?
1522 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Benti^ey. Not that I ever knew of.
Mr. Thackery, Did voii not dictate a contract for a contest, wh'le
you were the agent of the Government, in the Oklahoma National
Bank, in Shawnee, whereby a man named Leonard A. Hampton
put up $500 payable to W. W. Ives when this allotment should be
canceled ?
Mr. Bentley. Now, I will say this to the committee, that that is a
matter that has been carefully gone over. I have been questioned
closely as to that entire transaction by Mr. Embry, the United States
attorne}^ There is mj answer [indicating the Senate hearings of
1907] ; the whole thing; and I will offer that part of this record per-
taining to that to save time, and that covers the whole transaction.
Senator Townsend. Can you say yes or no as to whether he was
interested in any transaction except the ones you have mentioned?
Mr. Bentley. I have no recollection of any instance of Mr. Ives
being interested if he knew it. There may have been an instance pos-
sibly once or twice where the man's name was used in some way, be-
cause he was a man that could be trusted, but it was a trivia] matter
if it was done.
The Chairman. Was he a personal friend of yours?
Mr. Bentley. Only to this extent, that I knew of the man; I knew
the father and the family. I thought I would get a man of such high
character and such reputation that nobody could ever question his
motives. I took the cleanest and best man I knew.
The Chairman. Did you consult him before he was appointed as
trustee and received these titles?
Mr. Bentley. I had consulted him once. I had stated to him the
proposition that these lands — the proposition was to sell these lands
and convert them into money ; that we wanted them sold to the best
possible advantage ; and if we would come to Shawnee I would pay
him. Mr. Ives would never have come except that his wife was in
delicate health; threatened with tuberculosis in that climate; and
that, coupled with something to do that might be worth something
to him, led him to come to Shawnee. And those seven deeds — five
were taken to him. Two of them were sold for $32,000,
The Chairman. You have not told why you did not take all of the
seven to Ives. .
Mr. Bentley. Because the Indians insisted on making the deeds to
Mrs. Bentley.
The Chairman. Those two particular Indians?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thackery. This man here [indicating] was one of them?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir: Wah-nah-ke-tha.
Mr. Thackery. And who was the other one ?
Mr. Bentley. No-ten. I think you will find they both so testified
in this record.
Representative Burke. That legislation that removed the restric-
tions from those seven allottees was passed upon the theory or repre-
sentation that those Indians were capable of managing their own
affairs?
Mr. Benixey. No such argument was ever made. This statement
was made, that these Indians had no children, no one but themselves,
and they were willing to put their lands into a pool that might be con-
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1523
verted into monej^, creating a fund with which to buy a home for all
of them in Mexico.
The Chairman. Can you explain why the act itself did not make
provision for the pooling of the lands of these Kickapoos?
Mr. Bentley, You could not have got any such legislation passed.
The Chairman. You have just stated that that was what prompted
the legislation.
Mr. Bentley. That is true. Those representations were made, and
they were made in good faith, but you could never get an act through
the Senate carrying with it such a feature. Senator Teller believed
as much as I believed that these Indians would become extinct here,
and it was a matter of preservation, an act of humanity, to help them.
Bur for his \\e\p we would have been destroj^ed. We would all have
been indicted and in purgatory but for him. He had been Secretary
of the Interior. He knew the ways of the Indian Office. He knew
that anybody that got in their way was going to feel the iron heel of
the Federal law. These pirates would drive a man anj^where. It did
not make any difference the way the Indian Office had been adminis-
tered
The Chairman. Let us stick to the facts.
Mr. Bentley. Those are the facts. Senator.
The Chairman. That is a matter of argument. You are a lawyer?
Mr. Bentley. Not to hurt. By occupation I am a farmer.
The Chairman. You know that is not a matter of testimony.
Mr. Bentley. I hope you will pardon me for this digression.
The Chairman. You have stated you took these seven titles* — five
to Ives and two to Mrs. Bentley
Senator Toavnsend. I want to ask you one question. Do j^ou mean
to say that the Senate would not have passed that measure if it had
understood that you were ti'^'ing to do the thing that you did do ?
Mr. Bentley. No. I mean this : That to have framed an act with
so much detail to it there would have been so many diverse ideas on
the floor of the Senate. One man would have understood it one way
and another another. There would have been confusion. There
would have been no objection to the consummation of the purpose.
I do not believe it would have passed. It was the opinion of the
Members that it was better to do it in that form, because it was urged
by the Indian Department that' I controlled those Indians absolutely,
and they had to get an authorization from me to talk to them
Senator ToAV^■SEND. But the Senate itself did not knoAv that that
was the intention of the act?
Mr. Bentley. I think every member of the Senate committee
knew it.
Senator Toavnsend. I am talking about the Senate now.
Mr. Bentley. The Senate knew it. too.
The Chairman. Have you been sworn. Mr. Thackery?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir.
(Mr. Frank A. Thackery was thereupon duly sworn b}' the chair-
man.)
^Ir. Bentley. I think it will be found that the Congressional
liecord, when these matters were debated
Representative Carter. I want to ask you a question. Did this
act providing for the removal of restrictions on these seven Indians
make any provision as to wliom they could make transfer to?
1524 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr, Bentley. Oh, no; none of the acts did. i
liepresentative Carter. It was just a straight removal of restric-
tions ?
Mr. Bentley. Surely.
Representative Carter. They were ignorant people, were they not ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, indeed.
Representative Carter. Uneducated, and could not speak English?
Mr. Bentley. That was given as one reason. ;
Representative Carter. Some of them drank?
Mr. BEN'n.EY. A great many of them — not a great many. I do not
want to be unjust to the Indians.
Representative Carter. They were just such Indians as we find
among the ignorant, uneducated Indians of to-day?
Mr. Bentley. Hardly.
Representative Carter, What was to prevent any other men com-
ing in and taking those deeds in spite of vou in case he got to them
first?
Mr. Bentley. They would have had to forge their names. I did
get there, and nobody attempted it.
Representative Carter. How long was it after this act was passed
before you began to negotiate for the deeds?
Mr. Bentley, I left here the night of the 3d of March,
Representative Carter, When was the act passed ?
Mr, Bentlev. March 4.
Representative Carter. You knew the act was going to pass?
Mr. Bentley, I apprehended that it would, I had l^een told it
was in the bill, I
Representative Carter, You went directly to the reservation?
Mr, Bentley, I want to St. Louis, and there I found a telegram
that this was the law.
Representative Cariter, Who was the telegram from?
Mr, Bentley, Mr. Powell, I think. Sam Powell wired me in cam
of the hotel where I usually stayed.
Representative Carter, Was he your attorney? }
Mr, Bentley, He was rather the attorney of the Indians. /j
Representative Carter, Interested vrith you in those matters ?
Mr, Bentley. No; no interest whatever. He looked after .^om^
matters for the Indians, k
Representative Carter, How long after that before you left Sti
Louis ?
Mr, Bentley, I left St, Louis innnediately when I knew the law
had passed, I wired to Muzquiz, Mexico, and when I arrived atj
Eagle Pass they Avere there.
Representative Carter, Did you immediately begin to negotiate
as soon as you got there?
Mr, Bentley. I did not have to begin ; they were waiting.
Representative Carter, Whom did you wire to?
Mr, Bentley. I wired a Mexican by the name of Roman (ialan t(
bring these Indians to the bortler.
Representative Carter, I find here some telegrams. Mr. Bentley,^
For instance, here is one to Sam Powell. National Hotel, Wash^
ington, D. C. : I
Looks good here. Biii' council t(vniorrovv. luilinns standing pat.
M. J. Bl-NTLEY.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1525
Mr. Bentley. That must have been in June, 190G.
liepreseiitative Carter. May 25, 1906.
Mr. Bentley. Yes; that was from the Indians' camp at Muzquiz.
Mr. Powell had been very much interested in the Indian^^.
Representative Carter. Then 1 find a copy of another telegram:
Washington, D. C, June il. 1906.
M. J. Bentlky, Muztjuiz, Mc.rico.
Indian bill signed. No cliauge. Attend to matter of checks by wire.
Sam Powell.
Mr. Bentley. Yes.
Kepresentative Carter. Those telegrams were sent in connection
with the purchase of the land in Oklahoma, were they?
Mr. Bentley. No ; that matter of the checks, if you refer to that,
had no reference to Indian lands. That referred to a different trans-
action.
Representative Carter. These were not the telegrams you referred
to as having received a few moments ago?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir.
Representative Carter. Yoti went immediately to Mexico?
Mr. Bentley. I went to the border, and there I found, my recol-
lection is, five or six of the Indians that had come out. These Indians
had conferred among themselves, and they had sent me here to get
these restrictions removed.
Representative Burke. One of these Indians here?
Mr. Bentley. Yes; that man — Wah-nah-ke-tha — and Jim Deer.
1 don't know who they were. He, however, did not come out, but the
others came. They were elated enough over the prospect that there
was a shoAv to get some money to buy some land.
Representative Carter. \Vliat was the objection, and from whom
did it come, to having stated in this act what the real purpose of the
act was?
Mr. Bentley. Well, as to this first act, I don't know^ that there was
any objection. It was a mere matter of removal of restrictions.
Representative Carter. You said a few moments ago you could not
have put that through the Senate
Mr. Bentley. I was referring to the act of 1905. This matter
merely referring to six or seven allotments — I don't know whether
there was any discussion about that. I had in mind, of course, the
act removing the restrictions from all of them. I don't know that
there was anything very much said about this.
Representative Burke. You did not consider the question of get-
ting the restrictions removed f*om all of them until after yoii got the
seven, did you ?
Mr. Bentley. I Avill tell you how it came about. If the depart-
ment had kept its hands off', as Mr. Thackery has testified — they
jumped in and went into the newspapers. The title had passed. If
there had been a hiAvyer iii the Indian Office they probably would
have knoAvn that there woidd have been no use to attempt to repeal a
law of that kind. But they did not seem to, and they actually wrote
an ninenchnent and sent it up here after an Indian had deeded his
land
Mr. Ti!A< KKUY. You say the deeds were leally in trust, although
the deed was nnlv a warrantv deed?
1526 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Bentley. If you were selling a piece of land for somebody,
what do you want to file a declaration of trust for and complicate
your title? I don't know any other way. Choctaw Indians in
Montana sent Mrs. Bentley a warranty deed, and now she has valu-
able land in Oklahoma to sell for them. They did not make any
declaration of trust in it. If somebody wants to buy the land, she
sells it for them.
Representative Burke. Do you know of any white people who do
business in that way ?
Mr. Bentley. I do. I have done that myself. I owned a ranch
that I turned over to a man as security for some money
Mr. Thackery. Who was the man?
Mr. Bentley. Mr. Ives.
Representative Burke. Was Ives present when you got these deeds
on the property?
Mr. Bentley. No.
Representative Burke. Had these Indians ever seen Ives?
Mr. Bentley. They probably knew of him.
Representative Burke. Did they know him?
Mr. Bentley. Okemah knew him.
Representative Burke. Did these grantors know him?
Mr. Benti.ey. Okemah and all of them knew him. I explained to
them who he was. As a matter of fact, he had taken title to Oke-
mah's and his wife's lands. He sent the $15,000 in cash that he got
out of it, and sent it promptly. But Ives had executed a declaration
of trust that would have protected the Indians.
Senator Townsend. I think your position is absolutely defensible.
If the Congress would allow you to do such a thing as that, which,
I think, is a monstrous thing, I think Congress is to blame. But I
would like to know what you did with the money.
Mr. Bentley. Well, the money received from the first seven allot-
ments— but three of them was ever received by me. The 'rumpus
that was raised clouded the title. I could have sold his allotment for
$40,000 in cash, and at that time it was worth $50,000. I believe had
the town remained as it was then it would have brought $85,000.
But in holding on to it for him and ti^jnng to protect him — finally
these felloAvs forged his name to a contract, and the town fell down,
and it is not worth $15,000. We were injured by the department
refusing to follow the plain, positive direction of the law. and were
completely defeated in our purpose of acquiring a suitable home in
Mexico. Had the department kept its hands off. we would never
have come here asking for this act.
Representative Burke. What did you consider the \alue of thos^'
seven allotments at the time the act was passed in 1905 ?
Mr. Bentley. If somebody will compute it. I cari tell yon.
Representative Burke. Just give us an estimate.
Mr. Bentley. I figured that the Wah-nah-ke-tha allotment at that
time was worth probably somewhere around $20,000.
Representative Burke. That is one of theuL
Mr. Benttjsy. It might bring $25,000. In a few months, tliough,
the street car line went out there and it became very valuable.
Two allotme"iits l)el<)nging to OkenuUi and his wife. 154 acres, were
sold for $32,000.
Representative Burke. That is three of them.
I
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1527
Mr. Bentley. That was probably $10,000 more than it was ever
worth. It Avonkl not brino- $10,000 now. It neA^r was worth
$32,000.
Representative BuRiiE. That is about $55,000 for three.
Mr. Bentley. We never got any cash out of the Okemah land, the
154 acres, so. far as I know, except as I have testified.
Representative BuRitE. What were the other four allotments
worth ?
Mr. Bentley. Well, I think the others would average about $3,000
apiece. They were farther from town and badly cut up, some of
them.
Representative Burke. Then you would say the value of the seven
was around $05,000 or $70,000 ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; that is about their value at the time the
act passed. As I said, we w^ere only able to sell for anything near
their value three of them. The expense had been enormous in Mex-
ico taking care of those Indians. I had gone backward and for-
ward, employed helpers, and all that. The only thing I could buy
was a little piece of land of 2,000 acres with six days of water.
Senator Townsend. What do you mean by six days of water?
Mr. Bentley. There is a peculiar custom in Spanish countries
that when a settlement is established and there is a river to irrigate
with they call it 30 days of water, and then each person of the
community is entitled to so many days or hours a month.
There the Indians were settled, but it w^as only a temporary home,
having been unable to get any money sufficient to purchase the prop-
erty they wanted. Then I came back the next winter and tried to
get all the restrictions removed. There was a great property there
that I believed w^ould support them always. I had it in such a way
that I could buy it for such less than its value, as I believe — -238,000
acres, with 10,000 or 12,000 cattle, 175 miles from a railroad. We
could raise corn, beans, and potatoes. I think the Indians would
Lave been in Paradise there.
Now, the act of 1906, as I have said, if the department had been
content to follow the judgment of Congress rather than its own, and
let us alone, the American consul would have gone over there, and
those titles would have been taken to Mr. Ives. Mr. Ives would have
advertised those lands, and they would have been sold in 40's or 80's.
Any man that has had experience in lands in Oklahoma knows that
when people are attracted to a land sale of that character the lands
bring a very high price. Those lands would have nearly sold for
enough to pay the Indians out, but if it had not, it would have been
an easy matter to sell cattle enough to make up the difference.
As a matter of fact, two Federal officers came there — Mr. Thackery
and Mr. Outcelt. The doings of Mr. Outcelt in cruelty and bar-
barism are beyond any descriptive power of mine. The fmest look-
ing Indian I ever saw. the chief and leader of the Kickapoos, was
put in prison in Mudquiz, held there for 14 long days in that tropical
climate. If purgatory is any worse than that, I am sure nobody
would want to go there.
The United States attorney could not break him down. Finally,
a great lot of rubbish and old bottles were put into coffee sacks, and
they were put on his back, and he was marched around the plaza to
humiliate him to make him break down and agree to sell his land.
1528 KICKAPOO INDIANS. "
As a result, he testified himself before this committee of the Senate
that investigated the afiairs of the Kickapoos, that he carried this
great sack of rubbish on his back, and when he came before the
committee^ as a result of the injuries, his arm laid as limp at his
side as if it had been a piece of wood. It was little short of murder,
perhaps worse than murder. The very da};' that the act passed re-
moving the restrictions as to these lands I was thrown into prison,
and an Indian was induced to commit perjury. One of the land
buyers and Mr. Outcelt induced an Indian to swear that I had as-
saulted him with a six-shooter. I have the prison record here. I
can not see to read it without my glasses, but I want to offer it for
the record.
Senator Townsend. You do not care to have it read? ^
Mr. Bentley. I will state briefly what it is. This Indian was in-
duced to commit perjury, to swear that I had caused him to be
assaulted with a six-shooter. Mr. Outcelt wired to Mr. Thackery,
who was on the' border, "Bentley in jail; come at once." I have!
often wondered what the hurry was that Mr. Thackery should get '
there so quickly. Mr. Thackery came and was around there while
I w^as in prison. I was no more guilty of any wrong than one of
you gentlemen.
Fortunately, at the end of the sixth day, the last day of my trial-
it was a case that was being tried before what is known as a vacation
judge — the regular judge returned. He said to Mr. Outcelt, " What
is your function in my court ? " " Why," he said, " I am prosecuting
attorney for the United States." " Well," the judge told him, " your
absence would be more agreeable than your presence. We are in a
civilized country."
Representative Carter. Was this a Mexican judge?
Mr. Bentley. Yes; it was a Mexican judge that told him this.
And the judge recalled the witness, this Indian Johnson whom Out-
celt and the land buyer had induced to swear that I had assaulted
him. and they had a " confrontal." They have a peculiar way of try-
ing people there. The judge brings the accuser and the accused to a
table, and sits them down to see what they have to say to each other.
I said, " Mack, how come you to swear that I ever hit you ? " He
said, " Oh, no; you never did," and the interpreter said, " That man
denies it." Now, I was acquitted. Had the vacation judge, who had
been bribed to put me in prison and keep me out of the way by the
land buyers, presided, then God knows where I would have gone.
But by accident the regular judge returned and dismissed him.
The Chairman. How did you get the regular judge back?
Mr. Bentley. I don't know ; it was an accident.
Now, it was just at nightfall, and I had a hand grip. I walked out
in the plaza as if I was goiug to stay there always ; but I knew it was
only going to be a matter of hours until tlie regular judge would
leave, and then back in the jail I would go. So Avhen night fell I
dodged and I took refuge in the home of a venerable German priest.
I went in there to his home, and he said, " Come away from the win-
dow ; come inside." He lit his pipe and began talking to me. and he
said, " This is a serious situation." I said, " Father, what had I
better do? " " Well," he said, " I can not tell you. If you stay here,
they will put you back in prisou. and you may never get out alive;
KICK.4P00 INDIANS. 1529
if 3'OU attempt to get away and they catch yon, they will never bring
you back alive. I can not tell you what you had better do."
Criminals were turned loose and armed, Mr. Outcelt's friends, the
American land buyers, Outcelt's interpreter — they were all out for
me. They even went to a town 16 miles below there at 2 o'clock in
the morning searching the hotel. No hounds ever hunted anything
as thej^ hunted me.
I remained in the priest's house until midnight. The next morning
just before day I made Las Esperanzas. EdAvin Ludlow, an Ameri-
can, had charge of those mines there. The town swarmed with
rurales and police that day.
There was a railroad coming down from the north to intersect one
that led up northeast to the Mexican border. It was arranged that
the physician to the railroad and coal mine there would take a friend
of his horseback that evening to visit his patients, and they rode
down the alley back of where Mr. Ludlow's place was. and as they
came down I dressed myself differently than I did when I was last seen
at Muzquiz. Instead of wearing a dark coat and light hat 1 wore
just the opposite, the same as the doctor's friend. I went out and the
doctor's friend swung out of the saddle and I swung in, and rode
right down through the rurales and never paid any attention to them.
When I got to Barroteran, the station where I should have taken
the main line, the train did not come. I never can tell anybody how
I felt when day began to break. Of course, the Mexicans would have
got me. but it so happened that the section boss's house was open,
and T hid there. About 11 o'clock the next day a freight train came.
In the meantime, however, I could see my pursuers from the window
of the section house — Grimes and several of the land buyers. ^Irs.
Bentley and the children came, and they were walking up and down
the platform : but, of course, it would have been death to me to make
myself known.
.Vnyhow, about 11 o'clock, by a streak of luck, I got on board that
freight train and got started for the border. There were nine dead-
heads on there. I knew from the telegrams that were brought to me
that the chief of police at the next town had been wired that he would
be res]Donsible if I got by. There was $10,000 up for me; $5,000 put
up and $5,000 held in escrow. I induced the conductor to stop that
train 8 miles out from the next station and drop all those fellows off.
In the town of Sabinas, where they would ordinarily have been an
hour and a half, I gave the crew $10 apiece, and I was allowed to hide
in the caboose. They went through there searching for me, and I
liked to have roasted in that caboose. They were there just 27
minutes.
That night, when they got a mile and a half from the border, they
stopped and let me off. 1 had a pair of field glasses, and I saw the
train when it pulled in there, and there they swarmed like a lot of
buzzards.
When night fell I made my way into the town, and J. N. Shaffer,
a brother of Gen. Shafter, at midnight of July 4, 1906, took me in
his closed carriage across the Rio Grande River into the Ignited
States.
NoM\ the Kickapoos stood pat. They would not sign any deed,
but when the time came they could not get the Indians to go out, and
1530 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
there was no way to do it but just deliberately rob them, and they
did. They went to their village and brought them to the jefe politi-
co's home, and there their names were forged to the deed. There are
copies of those checks in this record.
First they forged the Indians' names to a deed. Then they wrote a
clieck for the amount of consideration named in the forged title.
They turned that check over and forged the Indians' indorsement
on it. He never saw the check ; he never saw the deed. They brought
those checks to Eagle Pass, Tex., drawn on the First National Bank.
There they deposited them to the credit of the Indians. They sent
the deed on to Shawnee for record. Then, in a few days, they re-
turned with a forged check and drew the money out, relying upon
that system of checks.
We indicted them 140 times for forgery. We got 140 indictments
against Chapman, Grimes, Conine, and Brown, at Eagle Pass, Tex.,
because they uttered these forged checks.
Gov. Haskell refused to surrender these men, and then it was that
Field and others went into Mexico and indicted them, and tried them,
and, as I understand, convicted them over there.
Duriner the investigation of the Kickapoo matter the Indians time
and again persisted that George Outcelt, the assistant United States
attorney, was present at the home of this Mexican judge when these
Indians' names were forged. But we could not believe it ; we thought
they must be mistaken, but when they went there and tried them I
am informed that it developed that he Avas there and saw it done, or
knew it was done. We had numerous trials in Oklahoma over this
matter, and the attorneys for the men who robbed the Kickapoos—
for Chapman, Grimes, and Brown^iave admitted to me that Brown,
in the trials in Oklahoma, swore that he went fishing that day and
took Outcelt with him, to protect Outcelt as not having been present
when the deeds were forged.
The Chairman. What attorneys were they?
Mr. Bentley. Ben Blakeney was their attorney.
Representative Carter. Was he the one that told you?
^ Mr. Bentlev. He told me that. And Mr. Field tells me that when '
they were tried in Mexico there it developed that Outcelt was present
and saw this done.
Mr. Thackery. You say it developed that he was there and knew ,
of the forgeries in a certain- trial ? 1
Mr. Bentley. No; he was there at Guajardo's house. J
INIr. Thackery. You say that fact was developed in a trial? 1
Mr. Bentley. A trial at Shawnee. I think it Avas Wah-nah-ke-
tha's case, or it was at Tecumseh, perhaps. We tried several of those
cases in the local courts. Growing out of that, Brown swore that
Outcelt was not there and that he was fishing with him on that day,
but Ben Blakeney, the attorney for Brown.' has since told me that
Brown lied ; that he was not with Outcelt fishing, but he and Outcelt
were both present at Guajardo's house, where the deeds were forged,
or are alleged to have been forged.
Mr. Thackery. Then it did not develop at the trial ? W\
Mr. Bentley. Oh, no; that did not develop at the trial,
Mr. Thackery. I never knew of that before, and that is the reason
I asked you.
I
t
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1531
Mr. Benti,ey. Now, I have done everything I could do. I took
these Indians before the grand jury at Eagle Pass, and it was three
limes before they succeeded in getting a grand jury that would indict
these men. A time came when the Indians at Muzquiz who had been
robbed were in this position : These men in Shawnee who had robbed
them had come to take their depositions before the same judge who
had forged their names to these titles. The poor Kickapoo was in
this attitude: If he went before the judge and told the truth, he
would hold him for contempt and throw him into prison. If he
went before him and lied or testified falsely against himself, he would
lose his land.
Another unfortunate thing developed there. This great record —
all these volumes of this testimony — contains a great number of tele-
grams in cipher. When President Diaz found the key to them it led
to the disgrace of a lot of oiRcers of his who were mixed up in it.
The governor of the State of Coahuila, it v/as shown, participated in
the $5,000 that was put up to put me in prison. It created such a
condition at Muzquiz that the Indians could not stay there.
The jefe politico, at whose home they were robbed, where their
names were forged, and who was the principal authority of that
locality, forbade them to move. We appealed to the State Depart-
ment, and on May 6, 1907, under the protection of the American con-
sul from Ciudad Porfirio Diaz, Mexico, the Kickapoo Indians who
are now in Sonora, including these, started on their long trip across
the desert to Sonora, more than a thousand miles — except Wah-nah-
ke-tha and Ah-kis-kuck and those who had very valuable lands. I
knew the State Department would put somebody there so they could
not be compelled to swear against themselves. Out of precaution, I
brought 40 of them to Eagle Pass and brought them around by Marfa,
some 300 miles farther north, and rejoined the others in the desert.
We left Muzquiz Maj^ 6, 1907, and landed in eastern Sonora Novem-
ber 8, 1907. We were all that period of time crossing those deserts
and over those mountains. We had 27 wagons, about 200 Indians,
and about 600 head of horses. The expense of that trip was frightful.
There was times we had to pay for water. We had to pay for grass.
We had to pay scandalous prices for provisions.
During the winter of 1907 and 1908 I wintered this whole cara-
van— horses, people, and all — south of Douglas, Ariz. That was
when I was here advocating the passage of this amendment which
resulted in putting $86,000 in my hands. I had borrowed in all
nearly $30,000 — some of it borrowed in Washington, $6,000 of it
borrowed at Eagle Pass, Tex.
The Chairman. How much was borrowed in Washington ?
Mr. Bentley. I will tell you in a moment. Some that I had bor-
rowed here I had given my note for. There was one item, with in-
terest, that amounted to $648 ; one of $2,213.33 ; and one of $600. I
had borrowed at Eagle Pass, Tex., of the Border National Bank,
$6,000. I had borrowed of a man by the name of Eagan, who lives
in Indiana, $4,000. I had borrowed of a man, an attorney at Okla-
homa City, $4,000.
The Chairman. Who was that vou borrowed from at Oklahoma
City?
Mr. Bentley. J. H. Everest. I don't know where Mr. Eagan lives
now, but somewhere in Indiana. Mr. Ives has his address.
15^^ 2 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
The Chairman. Did Mr. Ives get that loan for you?
Mr. Bentley. He negotiated that.
The Chairman. How much did you borrow from Eagan?
Mr. Bentley. $4,000. I borrowed from a man by tlie name of Lee,
in Okhihoma City, $1,200 and something. When I paid it, it
amounted to almost $1,300.
The Chairman. What were Mr. Lee's initials?
Mr. Bentley. M. R. Lee.
Mr. Thackery. Is he living yet?
Mr. Bentley. He was the last I knew. $1,285.15 was the amount
when I paid Mr. Lee.
The Chairman. Is he interested in real estate in Oklahoma City?
Mr. Bentley. Yes; I think he probably held a little.
The Chairman. When did you make that loan from Mr. Lee ?
Mr. Bentley. Well, that was made, I think, during the summer of
the Grimes-Outcelt raid. That was the summer of 1906. Anyhow,
there were some other loans. Before receiving anv money belonging
to the Indians of the $86,000, I paid in cash to 42 "Indians $13,000 of
that borrowed money.
The Chairman. Before you received it?
Mr. Bentley. Before I received this $86,000, I had ])aid in cash to
42 of the allottees, whose money the $86,000 was, that I had bor-
rowed— I paid them $13,000.
The Chairman. There is a statement in the record, affairs of tlie
Mexican Kickapoo Indians, showing those items, is there?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What is the page?
Mr. Bentley. Page 1706. In the report of that investigation, on
page 1706, appears a schedule of nw account, as rendered at that time,
showing a balance in my favor of $8,060. I had received of Kickapoo
money $37,209.91, and I had expended $45,260. I think, perhaps,
that account is short one or two items that were overlooked in making
up this statement. The payment to 42 Indians, amounting to
$13,000— a check properly indorsed — was accounted for and checked
at the time by the committee. This account was very critically ex-
amined. I think Mr. Embry himself probably will say that there is
no question as to this account being genuine.
The Chairman. To whom was that check of $13,000 paid?
Mr. Bentley. Oh, that was paid to 42 Indians. Some got $100.
This old man right here — Ah-kis-kuck — who denies it now. was paid
$250 of that.
The Chairman. In whose favor was that check drawn?
Mr. Bentley. Drawn to him always. I paid his son $750 — Mexi-
can money. I paid him $500 because lie owed a grocery bill of $500.
I paid his wife $200, 1 believe, or $300, Mexican. "They "were all three
there at the same time and were paid at the same time.
The Chairman. Were all those payments made on checks, Mr.
Bentley?
Mr. Bentley. Every one of them, and those checks were presented
to the investigating committee and checked over. Not only that, but
the record of that bank they were drawn on was checked. This com-
mittee that investigated the atl'airs of the Kickapoos was there at
Eagle Pass at the Border National Bank, where the money was paid,
and when my records showed, and I testified that I liad expended
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1533
$45,000, it was questioned.. They said, "Where did you <ret it«" I
am free to say that I can not account for where I got it, but I have
the sworn statement now of tlie officers of the bank shoWin' that I
had deposited there $56,000 *=
rof rocX'ed' I'T"/"'":, ^'•- 15™."<'y-in «>der tlmt I may
rot De cpiltusecl— at file time tins commission made this investicrn-
. Mr. Bkntiey No; that was before, and when tl at money came
into ni.r hands, these sums that I had borrowed in advance for the
lOckapoos and tliat 1 had paid tliem to live on, to si pport t liem-
^irXs-li'ii^ thS r dlle^me"' ''"' '"■"'■ ' »'^" -"" '''-^ -y""
Do those figures correspond?
Mr. Bextley. Yes, sir.
Eepresentative Burke. I thought you just said $56,000
Mr. Bentley. I say I deposited in that bank and checked throuorh
the bank m that period $56,000. 1 actually hanSledl at mu?h
money there. That was my deposits and receipts. I can show you
the chec«k received there on my account when I repaid this $6,000
1 lie Chairman. Now, come to the item of $215,000 appropria-
tion Out of that you received a fee of $28,000? appiopiia
. W I^S'OOO' ^™'l^,'.^P^'''^^^^^}^t; the way I came to be paid
a tee ot ^2o,000. These Indians met in council. The superintendent
that'^^olcn^'Mafirf ' 1\' ''''''''^' '' '''' United States a
Interior McLaughlin represented the Secretar^^ of the
^: B^^^^rScoU.^'^ superintendent of West Point?
Mr. Thackery. He is now in the city, isn't he?
El Pasa^'''^^'^' ^ ^''''^^ ^"^''' '' *^ '^''"^- ^^ ^^^ been stationed in
Mr BEXTLrv \?' '"^ ^Tt' ^''''^T^ ^^''^ «f ^^^^ «f the Army.
Offi.!* tt , ""^y- There had been a scheme on the part of the Indian
lelfi. /.?^-"'^^ *^' '^^?^^'^ Kickapoo Indians fi^om gettin<?any
tl hZ^ ^^''^ T'^'^y- Th^-^ had sent their officers and aStualW S
naped them and got a majority of them to go to Sha^v^iee, Okla. "^
Mr. Thackery. May I ask liim to name those?
th.u ^^''™;' ^"l^ ^^^''^' ^''^^^^^ ^''"^e to the Indian camp below
?kev'wenVV::^M'''^"'''^ %\'' '^ ^"^^^^"^ '^"^^ ^'' ^^em out o^f th re!
ihey \yent to Muzquiz. They went anywhere that thev could find
iTav 'm 'T.^f ''''''^'' '^ ^^^^"^ "^''^^ to Shawnee so tffl th y couM
W ft Thackery or some other man made their trustee and de
leat the purpose of the appropriation. It came to the noticf. of
Wlnmel^rortl^ ^ff^ ^^"^^' ''"'' '' --%lVosecUha?th1
fiZ Sh^wnoe nv^^Ti^n'''V'^'^ ^""^^ *« ^"^ ^ «P^^"i^l train
lived rl^\r 'a? •*•' *^ I^^^brook, Ariz., so that the Indians that
mile whTchllT^' ""T^'^ .actually have to make a trip of 600
miles, which would have been impossible for them to do.
35601— PT 13—14 5
1534 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
"When that came to the notice of President Roosevelt, throiijjh the
representations of Senators here, that here was a desperate attempt
to aoain defeat these Indians, the President took the l)ull by the
horns and had Gen. Scott there at Shawnee. 01<:la., and they took
charije of that train, and instead of ffoino; to Holbrook it was run to
Douolas and the Indians were united there.
After they had voted on the question as to who should remain in
Mexico, and the choice of a trustee, and those who would ^o to
Shawnee, tlien tlie question of my compensation for my f^ettino: this
money for them was discussed.
Mr. Thackery. If I mig-ht be ])ermitted to make a short state-
ment— I only want to do it because I believe the record would be in
better shape to have it made at this time. At the time of the coun-
cil the Indians were about equally divided, about half of them re-
maining" with the (rovernment. with me as the representative of the
Government, in Oklahoma. The rest of them were in Mexico with
Bentley or under his control.
Representative Burke. What was the rest?
Mr. Thackery. Seventy-five. There vrere 157 allottees living at
that time. The act was so worded as to require a council proceeding
in which the Indians were to say themselves how this money was to
be received. It was not left to any Government officer to give them.
Representative Burke. Now, your statement, if that is correct,
does not come in there, because he is telling us how he happened to
get this fee.
Mr. Thackery. He had said that these Indians were about to have
to go about 600 miles to Holbrook.
Representative Burke. But his statement indicated that that was
before the act passed.
Mr. Thackery. This was after the act.
Representative Burke. But his statement did not so shoAv.
Mr. Thackery. The point I wanted to make was that, if the coun-
cil had met at Holbrook, wdiile his Indians would have had to go 600
miles, the bunch I represented, under the wording of that act, would
have had to go 2,000 or 3,000 miles. It cost the Indians I represented
about $7,000.
Mr. Bentley. But it was never the intention of Congress that any
Indian in Oklahoma should get a dollar; but for the fact it was
shown to Congress that this money would be invested in Mexico, no
Indian in Mexico would have had a dollar. Had the department
kept its hands off, they would all have been in Mexico to-day. Mr.
Thackery and his emissaries came to the border and said, " If you
put your money in Bentley's hand, you will never get to spend it."
Representative Burke. Mr. Chairman, let us get an answer to
your question. That w^as about the $28,000. Was that narrative of
events before the appropriation or after?
Mr. Benti.ey. That was after the appropriation was passed.
Senator Townsend. What did you do to earn that $28,000?
Mr. Bentley. Senator, I will tell you what I did. I had been
woi'king persistently to get an act to go to the Court of Chiims to
secure from the Government the money that it owed these Indians
for years before that. I had come here time and again. I had paid
a man to (;ome here and represent me. I believe — in fact, I know —
that if we had gotten by the Court of Claims probably a million and
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1535
a half would have been recovered. Finally, after all the efforts, a
condition arose-onr extremity was such-we did not know when
this act was passed Their lands had all been taken from them and
this was a life and death struggle. Finally we got this one appropri
ation, this one pittance of $215,000 ^ppiopii
Repi^sentative Burke. It was $300,000, was it not?
a Htde fer^f T 1^ ".f f ^f'^^^ r'^- '^^^^^^th'^^^- I feel that taking
mooo U^Zln^A y I^^l^^]"^!^^^^'"^^ voted me a mere matter of
fW ? i; ^ I ^ ^'^ f""^ ^ ^'""'^ ''^'^''^ -'"'"'^ the expenses of my own
that I had paid, and what might have been reroveied, it wasT^rea^
wrong to me git^di
Senator Townsexd. Was anybody else interested in gettin^r this
claim that the Indians msisted was due them but you ? '' "
self and MrFi';i,]'"ff"'* //'''' ''"' ^^^ ^^^^ interested except my-
Siis and who .'/./'' ^ 'i?i' "''"^ ^^^'^ ^''^^ ^'^" known in Con-
giess, and ^A ho had the confidence, apparently, of everybody who
and\e'lp' ^"^''^ "''"'^''' '^"' ^ ^^^^^^ ^"^^^ '^f^^^' time to confe "ere
The Chairman. Who Avas that?
Mr. Bentley. Sam Powell.
^Senator Townsend. What I wanted to ask you was, Were you the
pioneers in this niovement to .et the money for the Indians' ^
Mr Bentley. I never knew of anybody else atteniDtincr to o-pf if
31>^| Set -'' -^^-^^'- ^'-' ^^' ^^ ^- ^^^ amoZlThe^Goen^
chp5iSj:^sr t£^:rf:r ^.^^ ^^- ^- ^- -ok
Mr'^FieW^rdlit' ^'"'^ ^"' ' ""'"■ '^"^" ^^ '^^^ ^^-^ -^^1 I or
Senator Townsend. Did anybody ever claim that the Government
would have given this money to the Indians government
I Wi !?^T wn'^1 P^'' ^,^"^^tor the Government denied positively-if
Lcian A^r rfi^^?" ^'' To^^ ^^here the Commissioner of
been a g^tidty.'' ^'"' *^'''' ^^'^^^^^^' '^ ^^^^'^^ ^ould have
Senat'or Townsend. So that you insist that you and the two gentle-
?215,000? '''' "'"' ""'""' '"^'^•'' responsible for obtaininf this
otheK.^w'^ Yn{ T'^^'t ^'"'*^'' ^- ^^^^ot know how it could be any
othei M'Ay Nobody else ever insisted. Nobody else ever took it ud
yir.'V^^V?^ ^^'"^' '^^''' '^'' Governn.ent did owe it to them I?
you will read the record
Senator Toavnsend. I do not care to do that
f^^" i^'^^'TLEY. I am referring to it only to show you. In fact Sena-
tor Teller, who did read it and helped me, said that he.^as a lawyer
Zi d h^.' ''' '^ the Kid.apoos had gone to the Court of Claims they'
would have recovered not less than $1,800 000 '^
for fhf 7 Townsend. You insist, then, that you yourself recovered
iXreen^recovere "?'"''""' '^ "'"'^' "^"^ ""''''''''''' "ould not
know t?.^f?T'/'"^*'''"'i ^r^^^^"" *oId fifty times by people who
know that but for my efforts they never would never have got a
Senator Townsend. How many years were you working at it?
1536 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Bentley. Oh, 10 years, I Avill say, from first to last.
Senator Townsend. How many people and who participated in
that $28,000? ^ • , ,^ -o n •
Mr. Bentley. I paid Mr. Field $5,000. I paid Mr. PoAvell in ex-
penses, a few times he had been here, $12,250.
Mr. Thackery, He is dead.
Mr. Bentley. There is no trouble, however, if he is dead, to prove
that I paid the money.
Senator Townsend. You then got $12,000 out of it for yourself?
Mr. Bentley. I got for myself the difference between $12,250 and
$5,000 and $28,875. That was all the pay I got out of it.
Senator Townsend. Something over $10,000?
Mr Bentley. Oh, after the Indians had voted on the question of a
fee on what I was to be paid— I had gotten them this money, and
it was just like finding it for them. I thought I ought to have 15 per
cent. „
Mr. Thackery. Did you not ask for 40 per cent i ^
Mr. Bentley. Never.
Mr. Thackery. I am sure you asked for 30. i j. i
Mr Bentley. I sav positively no. I never thought of such a
thino- I did feel I ought to have 15 per cent. Some haggle was
mad? about it, and I said, '^ Here is Capt. Scott and here is Ma],
McLau<yhlin. They are men of experience and know what tees
ought to be, and rather than quibble about it I will take 12^ per
cent." And the Indians voted it.
Now I want to say further that if you will go through my accounts
completely you will find that in dealing with this matter it was not
a question of making money; it was a matter of doing, as men often
do, something I wanted to do.
Senator Townsend. Have you any other business or occupation i
Mr Bentley. Senator, from the time I took charge of these In-
dians as agent until the present hour, with the exception perhaps o|
a period of six months, I have had no other business whatever. 1
have had no business connections. I have devoted all my time, year
in and year out, all these years, persistently, m behalf of these In-
dians. I have been with them months and months, and years even.,
I have been here in Washington. I was required to go to Mexico I
Citv Officers of the department came and attempted to prejudice thOj
President of Mexico. I have had to follow them backward and!
^Senator Townsend. Have you speculated in property, real estate
or otherwise ?
Mr. Bentley. Of the Indians?
Senator Tow^nsend. Of your own. . . -a ^i,^
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; very little. The year I w^nt out of the
Indian Service-that was 1901-1 became a director ma pilroad
company that was building a railroad m Oklahoma. A\ e built 40
miles of road. I made some money out of some townsites. i namea
and located the city of Okemah, Okla. I suppose that m one way and
another I made more money than my salary would have been in six
years as Indian agent. . j ^ •
Senator Townsend. You devoted some time to that railroad busi-
Mr. Bentley. Only a little, and that not like I should. i
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1537
Senator Toavnsend. Were yon a practicing attorney?
Mr. Benti^ey. Senator. I am an attorney only to this extent: I
sought to be admitted to the l^ar so that I might anywhere on the
face of the earth defend these Indians. I never OAvned a Law book.
In the technical sense I am not a laAV3'er. I haA'e a license.
Senator Townsend. Did you receive any fees from individual In-
dians for anything you have done for them?
Mr. Bentley. If any Kickapoo at any time ever paid me a dollar,
other than two Kickapoos — there was an instance at Shawnee, Okla.,
that I Avant to relate, because it has a A'ery prominent and direct
bearing on this subject. Soon after I Avent out of office
Senator Toavnsend. You see, Mr. Bentley, you go into so many
details. I want you to make this clearly understood, but we will
never get through with it if you go into all the details.
Mr. Bentley. I Avill try to be very brief. You have asked me if
I have receiA^ed any fees.
Senator Toavnsend. Have \'ou, or have vou not?
Mr. Bentley. I did. I received $2,000, as I recollect, $1,000 each
from two Indians. My efforts had resulted in getting for them
$40,000 for a piece of land Avhere they would have gotten $12,000.
I upset another trade Avhere the deeds had been signed and one was
pending before the department for $8,000, and the land Avas put up
and advertised and brought $28,300.
Senator Toavnsend. Are those the only tAvo cases Avhere you haA'e
received pay from the Indians?
Mr. Bentley. If I haA-e. I can not remember. I do not think any
other Indian ever paid me a dollar in the world.
Senator Toavnsend. Do you oAvn any property in Mexico?
Mr. Be:nti.ey. Xo. sir.
Senator Toavnsend. Do a'ou oavu auA' pro}>ertA' in the United
States?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
Senator Toavnsend. "Wliat?
Mr. Bentley. I own a farm in the ChickasaAv Nation of 320 acres.
Senator Toavnsend. Where did you get that?
Mr. Benti.ey. I bought it Avith the money that originally I bor-
rowed of tAvo Indian Avomen.
Senator Toavnsend. Did you buy it of the Indians?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir: I bought it of Choctaw Indians. I never
bought any land from Indians for whom I Avas trustee.
Senator Toavnsend. I was going to ask that. You never bought
any property from the Kickapoos?
Mr. Bentley. I bought one 80 from one Kickapoo, the only land
I eA'er laid any claim to, that I bought and sold.
Senator Toavnsend. AVas that title ever questioned in court?
Mr. Bentley. No; not in court, I don't think. The department
for a long time claimed that suit Avould l)e brought, or that there
was not title, or something. But I do not think any suit Avas ever
brought.
Senator Toavnsend, Was that bought since 1900?
Mr. Benti.ey. AAvay after that. I first took the land in trust, or
Mrs. Bentley did, and later I Avent to the Indian and bought it, and
I paid him $r),.500.
1538 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Senator To\v>'Send. AfterAvards ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes.
Senator Towxsend. After the complaint had been made?
Mr. Bentley. No. As I recollect, there was no complaint about it.
Mrs. Bentley, my recollection is, first took a warranty deed, and it
was one of those seven tracts. Later I Avent and hunted up the
Indian and took a quitclaim deed.
Senator Toavxsend. One of those seven? "Which one was it?
Mr. Bentley. That was one that was sold in 1911, away after this
melee.
Senator Toavnsend. Mrs. Bentley took it as trustee?
Mr. Bentley. Yes.
Senator Townsend. You mean you took it from her then?
Mr. Bentley. I took it in this Avay : I went to the Indian, and said
to him, " I failed to sell this land for you Avhen you. wanted me to sell
it. Mrs. Bentley has the title. You can either pay back the money
she has advanced you. or if you will complete the transaction by
making an additional deed I Avill pay you more."
Senator Townsend. Which one of those tracts was it? Designate
it by the price. I will know it better by that.
Mr. Bentley. It was a piece of land that had been allotted to the
deceased daughter of a Kickapoo Indian.
Senator Townsend. Was that the $3,000 piece?
Mr. Benit.ey. At the time I took the deeds probably it would not
have been worth more than $8,000. I was very fortunate in buying
that piece of land. I put in $1,000 in ShaAvnee near that in Avhat they
call raising the Avind in our country. They started a packing house,
and the packing house, and the packing house contributed to a boom.
People flocked in. and I got a good price for that piece of land. I
paid all that anybody would pay for it at the time I bought it.
Senator Toavnsend. Was that Avhile von Avere still handling the
fund?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir. That was after I had eliminated myself
entirely and forever. I had accounted for the funds I had had of
theirs, and no longer considered myself their trustee.
Senator Toavnsend. Now, you took part of this money and went
down to Mexico and bought how many acres of land ?
Mr. Bentley'. It is a piece of country that measures out exactly
6^ miles square.
Senator Toavnsend, Where is the title to that noAv ?
Mr. Bentley'. It is in the incorporated Kickapoo community of
Mexico.
Senator Toavnsend. When was that organized?
Mr. Bentley. Well, it Avas organized under an act of Congress of^
some date — of last August. M
Senator Toavnsend. Why Avas it organized? "^
Mr. Bentley. I don't know Avhat all the reasons were: I had
nothing to do Avith it. Members of Congress originated the idea,
prompted perhaps by this. This Indian reservation in IMexico was
a white elephant on my hands. I realized I could not hold it always.
There Avould be a disturbance made sometime if I tried to hold it,
and it ought to go to anybody other than individuals. I did not
know any person I felt like deeding it to. I had assumed this trust
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1539
at their request, and welcomed the proposition that I uiij^ht deed it
to them and get out from under the suspicion of not intending to
convey it.
Senator Townsend. You did not suggest that, did you, Mr.
Bent ley ?
Mr. Bentley. Time and again, Senator. I went to Senator Clapp.
I went to all my friends, begging them to help me to divest myself
in some Avaj' of this title.
Senator Townsend. It was in your name, w^as it not?
Mr. Bentley. Yes; to me and Okemah; but it had to be so. The
Mexican woman who made that deed would never have made it to
an Indian. On the other hand, if she had dared to do so and had
knoAvn that they wanted to, they could not have bought it.
Since we have drifted to that subject, I want to say that I could
have sold that piece of land to the Mormons for the purpose of
colonization for $30,000 cash more than I paid for it, and moved the
Indians on to another place. I made a great bargain for the Kicka-
poos when I bought that piece of land. I dropped in there at a
time when an old INIexican widoTv had to have money — 1907. She
had three pieces of land, and she had to sell some one of these three
pieces or we would never have gotten that basin. I paid her in
actual cash at one time $8,000. I paid various other sums. I ptit
into that land — it was in several pieces, most of it, however, in one
piece, but altogether the expense of acquiring it and what I put onto
it is in the neighborhood of $20,000.
Senator Townsend. Do you have that in your account that you
are going to file ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; I have a complete itemized account of the
different banks through which I transacted this business.
Senator Townsend. Have you expended all that $86,200?
Mr. Bentley, Senator, I not onlv have expended that, but, I be-
lieve, a little more than $6,000 more. I turned over $21,600 of the
remainder of this fund to my cotrustee, and, under the circumstances,
that caused me to be very reckless. These two old men here [in-
dicating Ah-kis-kuck and Wah-nah-ke-tha] are gamblers. They
want money to gamble with. They will go to any length to get
money to play monte. They came to Shawnee, Okla., and employed
some lawyers, and agreed to give them 25 per cent of this money in
my hands to get it away from me. I wanted to retain it; I wanted
to buy another piece of land adjoining theirs. I Avanted to put
away some of this money for taxes.
But I found they had got these attorneys, and had gone into a
court that was friendly to a man that had already robbed them of
their land in Oklahoma. If I had come within the jurisdiction of
the court, service would have been got on me, and the persons who
had robbed the Indians would have been in the position of having
robbed the Indian of his land, and then of his money, through a
corru])t court. So I Mcnt around the jurisdiction of the court, went
to Mexico, and made a pajnnent of $50 per cajnta to each and all
the Indians and turned over the balance to my cotrustee.
Senator Townsend. Did you take receipts for these payments?
Mr. Bentley. It was always by check, Senator.
Senator Townsend. Did you take a receipt ?
1540 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Bentley. The check shows. I could not keep books, because
I was in one end of Mexico one month and back in Washington the
next. I could not keep books. The only thing I could do was to pay
everything by check.
Senator Townsend. Your check would not show what you paid the
money for, would it?
Mr. Bentley. Oh, yes ; always.
Senator Toavnsend. How will it show?
Mr. Bentley. I make a notation. When I paid Ah-kis-kuck $300
Mexican money " land " was written on that. If I gave him $90,
as I did another time, that was an advance out of the fund.
Senator Townsend. Now, supposing you should die, or should
have died before this account was turned over, and your checks that
you had signed were presented, would those checks enable anybody
to learn what property you had purchased or what debts you had
paid ?
Mr. Bentley. From time to time I withdraw my checks, and at
my leisure — I am not an accountant; I do not know anything about
bookkeeping — I made up my account.
Senator Townsend". Don't you keep any books at all ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, I did ; I kept them very carefully. I took my
checks and made a schedule, from which that statement was made,
but in the book I made it much more complete. Here was a check
of a certain date for a certain thing.
Senator Townsend. Where are your books?
Mr. Bentley. My home, Senator, was burned up by somebody in
Shawnee. I had two homes there
Senator Townsend. So you have not the books?
Mr. Bentley. I have not the books, but my wife had the good
fortune to grab a telescope that contained my bills and checks
accounting for every dollar of that money and some moi-e, but my
books were burned up.
Senator Townsend. Now, just there; you spent money other than
the Indians' money? You drew checks on the same account. I sup-
pose you kept no separate account in the bank of the Indians' money
and your money?
Mr. Bentley. Senator, I had no business in this city then. I did
not go to any expense in the world.
Senator Townsend. You have testified that you had $56,000 in
bank at one time, and your testimon}' shows that vou had received
$37,000 for the Indians'.
Mr. Bentley. Yes.
Senator Townsend. Now, there was a difference l>etween $37,000
and $5G,000 that evidently was your money?
Mr. Bentley. The facts are these: In this awful fight down there
after the Indians had been roblied — remembei". now, we were raided
twice in little more than a year. One officer came one year and
threw us all into confusion, and that lost us our wheat crop. The
next year the same thing followed. It cost me $1,500 to feed the
Indians while I was in prison and keep them out of the hands of
these i^jcople.
Senator Townsend. I am assuming that is the truth.
Mr. Benti-ey. Covering a period of about 18 months I deposited
and checked through that bank, covering the period of this account.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1541
Some of this $56,000 was after this rendition here, but most of that
I can account for — that is in that statement. Altogether, however,
there was $56,000.
Senator Townsknd. There is nobody else on earth, is there, that
could account for this but you? You have no record evidence any-
where that would show what was done with that money?
Mr. Bentley. AVell, I think there might be some trivial part of
it, but I think my checks and my bills — for instance, here is a check
to the Armour Packing Co. at El Paso. Anybody knows that was
for meat for the Indians. You could easily find what those moneys
were for. Here is $500 to an attorney.
Senator Townsend. What is that property down there in Mexico
worth to-day?
Mr. Bextley. I could have sold it for gold at one time for $45,000.
Senator Townsend. What could you sell it for to-day?
Mr, Bentley. Well, Senator, the war conditions have brought
about such conditions that it would be unfair to fix a price. Under
normal conditions I value that property at $50,000.
The Chairman. What did you pay for it?
]\Ir. Bentley. It cost, with the improvements on it, in the neigh-
borhood of $20,000.
Eepresentative Carter. How nuich?
]\Ir. Bentley. More than 30,000 acres — 6i miles square.
The Chairman. Is that Mexican?
Mr. Bentij^y. No; that is gold. The first payment Avas $8,000
gold. I drew a check on the First National Bank of Douglas for
that.
Senator Townsend. Did you draw any salary from the Indians
during any of this time that you were acting as trustee?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir; except this. These Indians had consider-
able dead land, as they called it. Their friends had died, and one
would come and give me $10,000, perhaps: another perhaps $3,000. It
was agreed Avith the Indians I would pay them no interest; that, in
lieu of a salary for my services, I would only charge them the in-
terest on their funds. That is the only pay I ever received.
Senator Townsend. How much would that amount to?
Mr. Bentley. Sometimes I had it deposited in banks where I
got 5 or 0 per cent. Sometimes I loaned it as high as 10 per cent.
Senator Townsend. How much would that be?
Mr. Bentley. It would not amount to nuich. I don't think I had
more than $-20,000 that was at interest. All those sums were paid
back except one, which I owe to one Indian woman — $800.
(The witness here submitted a statement of receipts and disburse-
ments of the trust fund under consideration, which was ordered to
be inserted in the record and is as follows:)
Ahstruct of receipts and disbur.^euientu of M. J. BciitUii. trustee for Kichupoo
Indians in Mexico.
Disbursed through Riggs Nntional Bank, Wnshiugton. D. C .^512, 273. 94
Disbursed through First National Bank, Douglas Ariz 20.016.33
Disbursed through Border National Bank, Kagle Pas.s. Tex 1.. 579. 37
Disbursed through Bank of Conunerce. Shawnee, Okla 17,720.65
Disbursed tluough Moctezunia Banking Co.. Moctezunia. Mexico 851.94
I Disltursed through First National Bank, Tecuniseh, Okla 568.90
' Disbursed through American National Bank, El Paso, Tex., and by
1 payments of ca.sh and otherwise 13.720.62
1542
KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Disbursed through F. D. Hayinore & Co., h\ iiddiriou to suuis shown
by checks on bank $2,000.00
68, 737. 75
Delivered to Okemah, cotrustee 21,000.00
90, 337. 75
Trust fund 86, 278. 94
Qua-to-qua, loan to trust fund 1,900.00
88, 173. 94
SfatcDient u-'ith Riggs National Banl: of Washington.
June S. deposit $16,273.94
Check 1, Miss Ruth Field, money borrowed to get Indians to Douglas_ 648. 00
Check 2. Miss Eva Field, same purposed 2.213.33
Check 3, B. F. Beveridge. hotel bill for Indians 39.75
Check 4, :Mrs. Katie Howe, subsistence, winter 1908 300.00
Check 5, W. S. Field, money for support of Indians, winter 1908
. and 1909 600.00
Check 6, J. H. Slaughter, supplies furnished in Mexico 652.95
Check 7, Reimburse money advanced to delegation for incidentals 50. 00
Check 8. Payable to M. J. Eentley to cover expenses of delegation
from Douglas to Washington and return 500.00
Check 9, O. A. Mitscher, notions for Indians 107.22
Check 10, O. A. Mitscher. loan 2.000.00
Check 11. Jim Deer, for wagon for use of tribe 57. 50
Check 12, F. D. Haymore. provisions for Indians 100.00
Check 13, Rachel Kirk 25.00
Check 14, Tas-ko-ma 25.00
Check 15, Qua-to-qua 25.00
Check 16, Ah-ki.s-kuk 12.50
Check 17, Man-ni-e-to 50.00
Check 18, Wah-pe-che-qua 25.00
Check 19, Wah-na-ke-tha-hah 40.00
Check 20. Pem-ah-ka-qua 15.00
Cheek 21, Tom Smith 50.00
Check 22, Wah-pa-ho-qua 25.00
Check 23, Pe-qua 25.00
Check 24. Keah-qua-ah-moke 25.00
Check 24b, Jim Deer 25.00
Check 25. Wah-theck-cone 25.00
Check 26. Joe-na-ko-thet 25.00
Check 27, Mah-tep-we 25.00
Check 28, Pah-ko-tah 25.00
Check 29. W. S. Field, expense to Souora 100.00
Check 30, Joe Whipple, July 13____ 200.00
Check 31. Joe Whipple 200.00
Check 32. M. J. Bentley transferred to account as agent First
National. Douglas _' 4,000.00
Check 33. Ben Cooper, storage for Indians 45.00
Check 34. Wah-we-ah 25. OOi
Check 35, Ne-pah-hah 25.00
Check 39. Frank Hanna 400.00
Check 40, W. S. Field, clerks' fees in filing seven suits, district court
costs for Kickaiioos. Oklahoma, County. Okla 105.00
Check 41, Miss H. C. Miller, typewriting, preparing ftetition in
13 suits 13. 00
Check 42, W. S. Field, attorney fee for past services 3,000.00
Check 43. James B. Jenkins, assistance and advice in Kickapoo cases. 25. 00
Check 44. Simon (ioldberg. clothing for Kickapoos 48.75
Check 45, Henry Fiynn. attorney fee 30.00
Check 46. National Hotel. Mar. 1, room 25 days 25. 10
Check 47. Mar. 3, Baltimore & Ohio Railroad ticketl 27. 85
Check 48, Mar. 3. Dr. H. M. Hamblin, loan securwl by note 100.00
Check 49. Mar. 24, W. S. Field, expense on account of call to
Souora by Kickapoos 67.99
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1543
Statement with Border National Bank, Eagle Pass, Tex.
Balance $273. 28
1908.
August 7, C. J. Scliuessler, clothing for Indians $13. 25
November 4, Jacob Tomahawk 100. 00
November 10, court expense, W. A. Bennett 0. 50
November 10, bank paid telegram . 70
December 26, M. J. Bentley, money to hunt witnesses in
Mexico 50.00
January 4. deposit 500.00
January 4. Roman Galan. paid for Noten and Mah-na-
she-ka ; see notes attached to check 51. 42
January 4, W. S. Field, fee and expenses self and wit-
nesses attending grand jury. Eagle Pass 200.00
January 5, Mrs. Melancon. meals for Indian witnesses 3. 25
January 6. telegram . 50
January 7, Ah-kis-kuk 10. 00
January 7. Kee-ah-tha-com-o-qua. daughter of Ah-kis-kuk_ 10.00
January 7, Jacob Tomahawk, expense and attendance
grand jury. Eagle Pass, self, wife, and nephew 25.00
January 9, W. S. Field, on account of grand jury and ex-
penses witnes.'^es 100.00
January 9, W. S. Field, on account of trip to Sonora and
in bringing out witnesses for grand jury 400.00
January 9. Qua-to-qua, on account of grand jury 15.00
January 9. M. J. Bentley. car fare 2 witnesses, Muz-
quiz to Eagle Pass 5.00
January 11. Ah-kis-kuk 90.00
January 12. Qua-to-qua. to apply on tribe's note 5.00
January 13. Qua-to-qua 5.00
January 13, Qua-to-qua, to reimburse her for fare and
witnesses 2. 50
January 14. Wah-tho-con-a, account court, Shawnee 15.00
January 14. Eagle Pass Grocery Co., feeding Indian wit-
nesses 14.60
January 14. J. A. Bennett for cartage at Muzqulz, load-
ing and care of Indian plunder 5. 90
January 14, T. G. George, 5 tickets for Shawnee In-
dian witnesses 90.00
January 7, deposit 1,000.00
January 14. Joseph Clai-k, expenses himself getting wit-
nesses 35.60
January 15. International Dry Goods Co., bedding for
Indian witnesses 11.45
January 15, A. Schweitzer, groceries for camp of wit-
nesses 4.45
January 15. J. B. White, beef for Kickapoo camp 18.00
January 15. Louis Ladner, cooking utensils for Kickapoos- 1. 70
January 16. Jaggi. wood for camp 6. 00
January 16. M. J. Bentley, for use of Tah-pah-she and
Qua-to-qua, divided equally between them, returning
to Sonora 25.00
January 16, T. G. George. 3 tickets, Indians, Eagle
Pass to El Paso, returning to Sonora 46.80
January 16, George Rohleder, board for witnesses 50. 75
January IS, Guy P. Bentley, for expenses car fare to
Sonora lOO. 00
January 16. M. J. Bentley, for subsistence of Indian wit-
nesses 10.00
March 3, Mrs. Lulu Lombard, rent of ground and house
for Kickapoo witnesses 21. 00
December 26, 1908, M. J. Bentley, reimbursement cash
given to Ah-kis-kuk, $40 Mexican 20. 00
1, 579. 37 1, 773. 28
1, 579. 37
Balance on hand 193.91
1544 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Statement with First National Bank, Douglas.
FROM MARCH 1 0 TO SEPTEMBER 9, 1908.
March 10. deposit $123.25
March 10, cash for .supplies at Douglas and San. Bern $100.00
April 14. salary to Gostin 10.00
April IS, salary to Gostin 5.00
April 20. feed to mules 8.25
May 6, suplies for camp 100.00
May 6, deposit 500.00
May 20, deposit 1,900.00
May 21, John T. Eager, mules, $300 check 175. 00
May 6, W. J. Slaughter, hardware and utensils 50. 00
May 7, L. E. P.ooker, expenses on account of K. counsel 175. 00
May 20, Brophy Carriage Co., wagon, harness 272. 10
Mnj 21, L. R. Brown, Gostin's salary 75.00
May 21, Joe Whipple 100.00
May 21, Ed. Bowdess, for hauling supplies to K 20.00
May 23, George Campbell, blacksmithing '.). 50
May 21, T. E. Wilson, groceries for c;)mp 94.45
May 21, Frank Ilanna, expenses examining land 25.00
May 22. Douglas Hardware Co., implements 94. 45
May 21, L. H. Van Tresse, duty on wagons, etc 111. 98
May 25, C. M. Hadden, meals for Gostin and K. at
Douglas 57. 30
May 23. L. H. Van Tresse, duty and brokerage on buck-
board iind harness 98.60
May 23, Brophv Carriage Co., repairs on K. harness 13. 50
May 25, Gostin's salary 100.00
May 26, Garcia Sucerar, groceries 64.35
May 28, George Campbell, blacksmithing 42.50
June 10, Gostin's salary, expenses 50.00
May 23, Brophy Carriage Co., wagon 130.50
June 20, Gostin. expense account 37. 82
June 19, Brophy Carriage Co., harness 81. 85
June 20, Bro])hy Carriage Co., mules 225. 00
June 19, Douglas Hardware Co., tools 50.80
May 29, Gostin's salary, expenses 25.00
June 20, Ben Cooper, storage for K. property 50. 00
June 20, George Campbell, shoeing H. horses 10. 00
June 22, F. E. Wilson, supplies to take in interior 100. 00
June 20, Brophy Carriage Co., repairs on harness 5. 50
June 20, L. S. Van Tresse, duty 39. 33
July 13, deposit 4,000.00
July 13, expenses perfecting land title 200.00
July 14, seed and supplies for Tomachopo Ranch 100.00
July 14, Fam-e-thot 250.00
July 16, purchn.se Tomachopo 8.000.00
July 10. Moctezuma Banking Co., fees, power of attorney. 16. 00
July 16, Moctezuma Banking Co., stamps and notary fees_ 262. 95
July 16, Moctezuma Banking Co., K. titles examination 100. 00
July 20. deposit 16.00
July 20. deposit 10,000.00
July 21. Richardson & Dean, attorneys' fee 25. 00
July 27. Joe Whipple 300.00
July 21, VV. A. Bennett, interpreter 5.00
July 21, John W. Gostin, traveling expenses 25.00
August 8, M. R. I-ee, payment of note, use of 1,328.53
August 8, Okomah (Moctezuma), K 100.25
July 21, (Jostin, traveling expenses 25.00
August 10, Joe Whiople 23.83
August 11, Perry Rodlcey, loan 225.00
August 24, Jot- Whipple, for Pem-e-pah-no-mi 5.00
September 2. J. II. Everest, attorney's fee, Oklahoma 100.00
1, 837. 61 4, 677. 52
1, 837. 61
I
Balance on hand , 2.839.91
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1545
FROM SEPTEMBER 9 TO NOVEMBER 17, 1908.
Forward $2, 839. 91
November 16, deposit 5,000.00
September 21, Nan-ui-toke $10.00
September 5, W. C. Douglas, attorney fee 25,00
September 21, F. D. Haymore, apply on Kickapoo account- 500. 00
November 4, Pas-ke-na 25.00
October 2. Josepb Clark, return of expense money 100. 00
October 15, ticket agent, Shawnee, 2 tickets Kickapoo 89.20
November 2, Nan-ui-e-to (male) 45.00
November 4, Tah-pah-bah ^ 25.00
November 4. Pum-y-tum-moke 25.00
November 4, Mali-tep-we 25. 00
November 4, Ah-kis-kuk 45.00
Voucher No. 4. cheek Ma-ka-se-ah in suit — Tecumseh 75. 00
Voucher No. G, check to doctor in suit — Ma-ka-se-ah 50. 00
Voucher No. 8, check Nau-ni-tokc 25.00
1, 064. 20
►
7, 839. 91
1,064.20
6, 775. 71
FROM NOVEMBER 17 TO JANUARY 16, 1909.
Forward $6, 775. 71
F. D. Haymore. for Avork on ditch November 7 $150. 00
November 2, Wah-nah-ke-tha-hah 25.00
November 2. Chah-ke-she 25.00
November 2. Wah-theck-ke-na 50.00
November 6, Ah-na-tha-hah-qua 25. 00
November 5. Rachel Kirk 25.00
November 4, Ah-che-che 25. 00
July 21, Charles Valencia, rent of house 5. 00
November 4, Okemah, taxes 19. 50
November 4, Wah-po-ho-ko 12. 50
November 17, Critoval Davila, corn 45. 54
November 28. F. D. Haymore, general supplies 1,000.00
November 7. Pemapahhona 6. 25
November 10, A. D. Vanencia, corn 10. 75
November's. Noten. horse 20.00
November 6. Pah-e-nah 25. 00
November 5, Ke-ah-kee-quah 25.00
November 28. Zerua Davila, Gostin's salary 44.62
December 3, Na-na-chi-skin-no-quah 50. 00
December 5, F. D. Haymore, labor on ditch 200. 00
November 2, Mexican for beef 7. 50
December 15, Ah-che-che, saddle for use of tribe 12. 50
November 10, Demencia Gartari, corn 62. 50
November 6, Ke-ah-quah-moke 25. 00
December 14, Carlus Loaza, examining titles 31. 60
November 28, Charles Valencia, Gostin's salary 150. 00
November 23, E. M. Webb, surveying 80. 00
December 12, Antonio Samenego. land purchase, additional- 500. 00
December 12. Moctezuma Banking Co., expenses perfect-
ing title, additional land 100.00
December 20, Mrs. R. Bahert, for lodging and feeding
Kickapoos 10. 00
December 18, C. Davila, corn 45.48
December 18, Mexican for beef 12. 00
2, 825. 74
January 6, deposit 1,000.00
7, 775. 71
2, 825. 74
4, 949. 97
1546 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
FROM JANUARY C TO APRIL 3, 1909.
Forward
January 25, deposit
December 13, beef for camp $12.50
December 14, Garasie R. Davavlia, corn for camp 10. 00
December 35, Ah-che-che, payment on saddle 12. 50
November 28, Seiiora Zavila, Gostin's salary 275.00
December 14, Senora Zavila, corn 15. 94
November 28. Seiiora Zavila, chargeable to Gostin's salary. 75.00
January 30, 1909, W. W. Ive.s, tickets, 4 Indians 66.00
January 16, J. W. Gostin, alfalfa seed, sorghum 100.00
December 8. Perqua 25.00
January 19, J. H. Wahl, attorney fee, court. Tecumseh 50.00
January 19, Pen-e-tho, return of cash borrowed for use of
Indians 250. 00
January 13, J. H. Everest, attorney fee, United States
court 300.00
November 5, Noten 5.00
February 23, F. D. Haymore, cash and sui)plies furnished
for January, 1907, as per statement rendered 345.00
December 18. Ne-pah-hah 25.00
December 14, Patricia Garcia, horse for Na-me-pesh-qua_ 27.50
December 14, Christabol Davila, corn for tribe 29. 86
November 2, Ke-na-ko-thet 45.00
January 10, W. S. Pendleton, expense, Kahkahtophe 25. 00
December 14, Mrs. Zozaza, board bill, K. Bacerac 7. 00
December 15, Ah-che-che. saddle, part pay 25.00
January 19, VVa-la-he-ah-she 50.00
January MO, Joseph Clark, time and service procuring wit-
nesses 25. 50
December 11, W. A. Bennett, surveying 25.00
January 21, draft on Douglas to pay J. Jones. Del Rio 500. 00
January 21. Pa-ma-keth-o, payment 100.00
2, 427. 22
March 3, F. D. Haymore, .subject to Okemah's indorsement. 1, 000. 00
March 1, W. S. Field, expense of self and others, Sonora
and return 450.00
March 3, Qua-to-qua 100.00
March 3, J. W. Gostin, to be indorsed by Okemah, to pay
for ditch work GOO. 00
March 3, certified check to guarantee bond for costs in
Kah-kah-to-the-qua case 100. 00
December 14, John Gostin, expense on account of trip and
transportation of surveyor
February 14, Mrs. Greentree, room for witnesses
March 1, T. E. Wilson, groceries
March 1, Miller Mitscher Co., Gostin's salary
March 1, W. S. Pendleton, attorney fee
Balance on hand 1,028.00
Moctczuma Banking Co. of Moctesutna, Mexico.
1908.
December 16, deposited $10,000.00
January 16, paid through bank, taxes $14. 00
paid stamps, fees, Samamiego 195. 75
telegram 1. 27
stamps 5. 00
January 2, for surveying and examination of titles 150. 00
January 29, withdrew $1,000 for deposit in Douglas 2,000.00
20. 00
J
7.25
63.00
.
4.50
150. 00
i
2, 494. 75
3, 522. 75
2, 494. 75
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1547
February G, paid Ranking Co., services prociuing addi-
tional land $200.00
Februarys, bank pai(i hotel bill for [<. 5.50
February 12, cost of conflrniatiou of deed iu court 15.00
jiaynieut to Saiuamiego on laud 1,000.00
Maroli 1. bank paid faxes for lUOl) 117.36
3, 703. 8S $10, 000. 00
3, 703. SS
Mexican money 2)6, 296. 12
Balance on hand 3,148.06
IStdtcment with Fir-st Natiijiial Hank, Tecuiiiseli, Okla.
January, 1900. Deposited $776.32
Drew cash for court purpo.ses $554.00
Paid district clerk, check 2.90
Other checks 12.00
568. 90 776. 32
56S. 90
Balance on hand 207.42
Statement n-ith Bank of Commerce, Shawnee, Okla.
1908.
June 15, deposit $10, 000. •»
deposit 10, 000. 00
Joe Whipple $25.00
paid Border National 7,000.00
June 16, J. H. Everest, note on mortgage 4,067.09
June 17, Joe Whipple 1(X). 00
Dad Sparks. Indian meals 14.55
Eagau note 4,037.26
W. W. Ives, taxes, court, etc 1,000.00
June 27, 3 certificates for $1,000 each, and one for $761.10,
afterwards deposited in Tecumseh First National 761. 10
July 29, Okemah 100.00
August 10, deposit 100. i»
20, 100. 00 20, 100. 00
• PAID FROM PKRSONAL ACCOUNT WITH SAME BANK.
April 8, court : $100.00
April 10, Gostin's salary 5.00
April 11, drew cash on account of court 50.00
May 17, transferred ca.sh to Gostin for general expenses 125.00
April 27, fine for Indian 10.00
July 28, ticket for Indian 33.75
1909.
January 2, Joe Clark, expense on account of procuring witnesses 100. 00
January 22, typewriting 2.00
January 23, Kah-kah-to-the-quah 25.00
ticket for Indian 27.00
January 25, cash to Ah-ke-na-ma-tho 30.00
January 27, Joe Murdock. court 8.60
supplies for Indians 24.80
M. J. Bentley, on account incidental expense, court,
Tecumseh 10. 00
clerk district court, costs 50.00
February 8, Ma-ta-se-ah 19.60
paid horseshoeing bill; bill attached 22.00
paid W. W. Ives, certificate of deposit Bank of Com-
merce, $1,000; draft, $500 1,500.00
1548 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
1909.
September 25, drew through Bauk of (Commerce personal account
American National, El Paso, to pay expenses of
trip to Souora, self and Indians
paid through American National Bank, per account
Orson P. Brown, transportation of Indians
paid cash to Brown, same purpose
provision and subsistence in cash
paid July 3, 1908, G. W. W. Zozaza, subsistence and
lodging for Field, Gostin, civil engineer, on account
of inspecting land for Indians; see check July 3,
1908 _• 38.
check American National, J. J. Boyd, stipend for
ti-ibe 92.
November 4, horse for use of tribe, J. J. Boyd, by check 100.
June 27, check American National, typewriting, Ruth Wil-
liams 4.
paid Armour Packing Co., through American Na-
tional, for meat, Oct. 20, 190S 107.
telegram ordering meat
July 25, paid Armour Packing Co., through American Na-
tional 98.
July 10, check to J. W. Slaughter, cash advanced to Frank
Hannan, account trip to Bacerac 25.
paid to Willard Hotel, Shawnee, Feb. 4, board Indian
witnesses 2.
paid MiPer Mitscher Co., cash, saddle chargeable to
Wathecona 10.
bridle for same, cash 2.
packing ease for checking articles purchased and
transix)rted to Indians, Oklahoma City to Douglas- 6.
dray
paid to blacksmith, Casas Grandes, shoeing K. horses
Nov. 28, 1908 4.
paid Johnson & Dickson, clothes for Te-ne-pah-hone,
see bill 20.
paid Frank Hanna, by deposit. Banco Mlnero, Juarez,
Mexico, reimbursement for option paid on land ;
see certificate attached 200.
paid J. A. Young, Dublan, Mexico, through Ameri-
can National, for feeding Indian stock, January
and February
paid Dublan Mercantile Co., in cash, supplies for K
horse for Qua-to-qua
paid Boyd's restaurant, December, 1908, meals for
Indians
paid cash to Nan-ni-toke, July 21, 1908
hotel for Nan-ni-toke
ticket, Douglas, Ariz., to Shawnee, Okla
paid myself balance due from prior settlement, see
committee report, page 1706 8, 060. 09 1
paid myself salary for period May 18, 1908, to
May 19, 1909 1,500.00;
paid myself per diem of $2 per day in lieu of sub-
sistence 730, 0(J!-:
paid transportation, three trips to Mexico; tickets,
$44.60 133. 80
Pullman fare, each trip, $4.50 13. 50
transi)ortation in Mexico, three trips from railroad
to cami) and return, .$15 per trip 45.00
three trips, car fare in Mexico, ,$9.90 each 29.70
cash used at TomaehoiK), taken in person by me,
November, 1909, and used for labor, necessary
items paid for in cash 480.00
13, 726. 62
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1549
Cash advanced in settlements in payment of Kickapoo debts since ivrnino hal-
ance of community fund over to cotrustee (Okemah)
Since turning over to cotrustee, paid to Mah-kali-se-ah_ $709 00
Paul to M. R. Lee for Kickapoos 1 oqS" V?
Ad^-^inced court expenses in Wah-nah-ka-tlia-hah"eas;:::: 565' 00
Paid taxes and other expenses on account of Kickapoos in Meileo""" mf 00
return^ subsistence for Kickapoos, Mexico to ShawSe and
105.00
Amount expended and paid to cotrustee OoisST 75
Total amount expended to date "qToo^^
Trust fund ccft'o^oTJ ^^■^'^^■^^
Qua-to-qua. loan to trust fund "iiii-ii:::::::::::: i; iia oo
Mitscher notes, credited twice ^o" JS' nn
Refund by Shepherd "" Vnn ^
400.00
ft 90, 573. 94
Paid in excess of trust fund ~^^^^71^
Kickapoo Indians which I n- id nn? an attorney fee for services rendered the
that I should have pakl this is f)^ of tlie community fund, the cmtention being
or Kickapoos. l^n^v^^l^olSiTi^Z '^M^^S^^^^^^^S
"M r/ir ;r;7,si-,"j.;:3",«- — ■ "S- ."ssi "s
(-, ^I. J. Bkntley.
M^hnX^r^^JIT"" (^•^^■^"■^"^ ^^. the -statement submitted by the
Tvitness). That helps me out on this. It savs here, "Paid mv own
salary for period May 18, 1908, to Mav 19, 1909 $1 500 »
^^isni^^i:t'' '' "'^^ ' '^"^^- '^''^' -'- "- ^-^^ -^-r I
Seiiator Towxsend. It appears, then, you Avere drawing a salary?
Mr. Bentley. Never but the one year; the last year I was there I
paid myself salary and expenses, and that is all" I ever was nafd •
and I had no interest in any fund or anything else ^ '
^^^Senator Townsend. Did you allow yourself any charges for that
Mr. BEXTI.EV. I allowed $2 a day for hotel bills in lieu of subsist-
ence. Of course, I charged up car fare from time to time,
salary' ^^'''^'^^^^- ^^^^ ^'^^ the only salary you ever received as
qln.^n'"'' t"""'- ^^'^ """^ '^'^''^' ^'°" ^^'^'1 fi"^ anywhere any time
money? ^"^"^"^"'^'^- ^"* -^'^^^ ^ad the interest on the -India™'
th?i/. ^^'^'^"LEY. Oh for a time I had the use of probably $20,000 of
their money. I made some little money out of it
^^benator Townsend. You invested tlieir money, did you, for your-
VarlJlT^'''''T\ ^'] *^?^' ^¥' ^ ^''^''^ t])em my note for their money,
i^oi mstance, I had about $r..000 of oiu- old widow's money, and she
HoGOl— PTi;5— 14 0
1550 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
had notes of $500 each coming due each six months, and I paid them
one after another, $1,000 a year.
Senator Townsend. You were acting as trustee and held this
fund as trustee, and then you took notes from the parties ?
Mr. Bentley. I gave my note.
Senator Townsend. I should say you gave your note to the parties
■whose money you had ? Some of the parties.
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. "Did you not use any_ money for your own
benefit aside from that you gave your notes for?
Mr. Bentley. There was no tribal fund then. Senator. At that
time these were individual moneys, just like you would loan me a
sum of money or leave it with me in trust, that I would do as I pleased
with because I had to pay it back.
Senator Townsend. You had to pay it all back, then, that you held
as trustee?
Mr. Bentley. I have paid all the money I ever held as trustee, and
all the money I ever held as trustee to the individuals except $800.
Senator Townsend. Now, did the Indians ever receive from you
any interest on any of this $86,000 which you had which was not
expended directly for them ?
Mr. Bentley. No ; for I never drew any interest on it.
Senator Townsend. What do you mean by saying that you had it ]
out at interest at 5 or 6 per cent ?
Mr. Bentley. Senator, that was individual Kickapoo money that
T held.
Senator Townsend. Up to $20,000?
Mr. Bentley. I think a little more, perhaps, for a little time. The
Indians were very fickle; they would not let you keep their money J
very long. I kept it for them as long as I could. I made them take
as "little of it as I could, because if you did not in a few weeks it
would be gone.
Senator Townsend. If I understood you correctly, Mr. Bentley,
Mr. Field received $5,000 of that $28,000 fee
Mr. Bentley. That is a (question. When I came to Washington
after I gave up the trusteeship I turned the balance of the fund in my^
hands over to my cotrustee and came here for settlement, as I had;
said to the committee I would do.
Senator Townsend. When was this?
Mr. Bentley. That was some two years ago. It was a dispute
item whether I should have paid Mr. Field out of my fee or have*
paid him the $3,000 I did out of the Kickapoo fund. That was a
disputed item. My checks and vouchers show that I had overpaid
the $86,000 by that amount, still leaving a balance of $1,000 or so
due me
Mr. Thackery. May I suggest one point there? The council pro-
ceedings were in writing involving the disposition of this $215,000.
If I remember rightly, that sets out definitely that the 12^ per cent
which went to him— it should be understood that that must pay all
attorneys' fees of every description.
Mr. Benti^y. That "was any attorneys' fees of any description re-
lating to the getting of that money.
Senator Townsend. Go on with your explanation. I would rather
you would not interrupt.
KIOKAPOO INDIANS. I551
„n^t' i^P"*"'^^'- \ "•»»'«'. to Clear my hands of this thing. I had
Zn':' riS^S^ Tel'iti^"- ' "»^ '^*' ™y -^^ -" f-"y "-
nor.":|^^°=n%r '.^otresTfh:? ^^r^ "^^' ' ^"- ' '"
Mr. Bentley To get this thing off my hands 'and have no contro
versy with anybody I conceded that I would considei that as oaTd
out of my fee-the $3,000. And therefore, conceding tlu^ it leaves
his account overpaid $2,000 or $3,000 actually. I settled tiara
time I could not get to my books ^
<fiof ooo^f J°''Ti?.°- J°" ^".^^^fi^d ^ little while ago that out of this
ITdZZZ^g^ ^''- ""'"'^ ^'^'''^ ^"^^ P-d --3^-dy else $12,000
Mr. Bentley. $12,250.
Mif Field ^^''''''''''''''' ^'''^' ^ '"'""^ ^^ ^^'"^^^' i^ ^^'^^ '' ^^11 y«^^ paid
fu^J^o?^.^::^ " ^" '^^^ ' ''''-' ^^^^ P^^^ ^^- -^t «f ti-t
motyVrny^i;]^^o"ef "'^ ^"" ^^'^^^^ ^^^^^ «^^^ ^^ -^ «^^-' ^^^i-
I\Ir. Bextlev. JNIr. Field has made numerous trips to old Mexico
thTr'^an^TriT "f'^ 'f' P--cutions and pSsecuttns down
there, and I pa id him from time to time when he came, sometimes
hs expenses and a couple of hundred dollars, sometimes as m7ch 2
$oOO. It was nothing that had anything to do with this $^15 000
It was services rendered m land cases and litigation T'-^'^'^^^-
Senator lowN send. Now, as trustee, have you 'received monev
moTev ^h I^^^'l ''^''' *^^'? '^''' ^^^'^^^^ H^ve you Taken tS
money that they have earned or accumulated in the process of thpir
J^::t ^^-^^ ^ s- 1!"^'^^-^ Set
own business as individuals ^ wansact tneir
coSkutT l'.'u7.T''- 7^'"' *^^ i^ ^'^"" "'"^"^t ^ These checks that
LT— fby ^117$"^^^^^^^^^^^ ^'^" ^^"^ ^^^^^^^^-- -^^ ^^- -
Mr. Benti.ey. Yes, sir.
is ftr'^""" T'^'^'^'^^^^^- Ti^^* i« e^a^tly what your account stands for,
Mr. Benti^y. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend Now, the other moneys that you have received
from them you have borrowed and given your note for?
Mr. Bentley. Individuals, and paid them back
mT'bIIT No^'si?^' ^'" ''"'''"^ '^"'' """"'''^ ^^"^ '^""^ "^^'
Senator Town send. Have you kept it in a separate account?
ihol- ^^f;'^^^'^- What I mean is this, I have had-for instance at
$8?oK?f'*''^%-^?''''- ^'^i ""! ^"^ y«" ^ ^"^«ti«n there. The
h.H b?p 1 i^^f *i '"^^ ^''"^ ^^"^^ ^^ *^"«*ee ^a« after the $28,000
had been deducted, was It not? That was the net amount?
Mr. tJENTLEY. The total amount received by me was $86,276.94.
1552 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Representative Burke. That was after the $28,000 had been de-
ducted ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes. I had nothing to do with the deduction.
Eepresentative Burke. Out of the $28,000 you gave Powell $12,250,
and you gave Mr. Field $5,000, did you not?
Mr. Benixey. Well
Representative Burke. Did you or did you not?
Mr. Bentley. I don't know ; it is a question. I did not intend to.
I only intended to give him $2,000, but it was said that I should not
have paid him more out of the community fund.
Representative Burke. If you did not give him $5,000, then you
must have $3,000 more yourself than you stated here awhile ago.
Mr. Bentley. Well, I have overpaid the $86,000 by several thou-
sand dollars. For the purpose of a settlement I was willing to con-
cede that I should have paid it out of my fee. I don't know any other
way to explain it.
Representative Burke. I want to ask you now, as a matter of!
fact, if one of the first checks that you drew on this $86,000 was a
check of $3,000 to Mr. Field for past services?
Mr. BentIxEY. No.
Representative Burke. Then, this account is not correct.
Mr. Bentley. It surely was not.
Representative Burke. I want to call your attention to this item on
the first page of your account. [Handing the statement to the wit-
ness.]
Mr. Bentley. The first check
Representative Burke. Not the first check ; it is on the first page.
Mr. Bentley. It may be on the first page, but it is not the first
thing I paid.
Representative Burke. I understand that ; it is among the first.
The Chairman. What date is that?
Representative BuRiiE. It was in June.
Mr. Bentley. It may have been after June. I have an idea it was
in August that I gave that check. It was not at that time, I know ; it
was awaj^ afterwards.
Senator Tow^nsend. Did you buy any stock for the Indians, or im-
plements, or anvthing, with that $86,200?
Mr. Bentley"^ Oh, I bought mules, horses and wagons, and har-
ness.
Senator Townsend. Can you tell from your account how much you
spent for horses, mules, and wagons ?
Mr. Bentley. Just exactly. If you will pardon me, and 1 may
have that, I will show you. . „ -. . t . i
Senator Townsend. If it shows that, that is all I wanted to know.
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; it shows exactly there— so many dollars
paid to such a man for wa^on or harness. It shows what it was lor.
Senator Townsend. Does this account show how much of this
$86,200 you deducted— which I am going to concede you had the right
to do — for money expended for these Indians ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
Senator TownseneT. And when?
Mr. Bentley. It shows exactly.
Senator Townsend. Does this account show when?
Mr Bentley. Yes. sir: I think vou will find the date there.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1553
Senator Town send. June 8, it sa3^s, but no other date.
Mr. BENii^EY. That was probably paid at some other date. T dis-
bursed this money through so many banks
Senator Townsend. The first two or three pages there is no date
at all.
Mr. Bentkey. Of course, the stenographer neglected, probably, to
put that on there.
Senator Toavnsend. Do the Indians owe you anything now?
Mr. Bentley. I think they owe me about $3,000; maybe $3,500.
Senator Toavnsend. Can you tell whether they do or not?
Mr. Bentley. Yes; the way I figure it they do.
Senator Townsend. How can j'ou tell?
Mr. Bentley. I think I beat myself out in my settlement I
figured myself out of $3,800. I had borrowed from individual In-
dians— for instance, here was one woman I owe $1,900 of borrowed
money. I expended all that money for all the Indians. There are
others I owned money that I had expended for the Indians, some
$4,000. When I received the $86,000 I should have paid all of that.
Where I had taken the individual Indian's money and ut-ed it for all
the Indians and none of it in any way myself, of course, it should have
been paid out of that general fund. But in the confusion of the
time when I tried to close up my account and turn it over to my
cotrustee to keep this from going into the court's hand I overlooked
that. I never paid but $250 of that out of the $86,000. I should
have paid four thousand and some ninety-six or forty-six dollars.
Senator Townsend. You were depositing money at different
times ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes.
Senator Townsend. Money that you had received from some
source. Do you know where you received that monej''?
Mr. Bentley. I kept a very careful account. If I owed Mary
Pen-e-tho $4,000, and if I had her money in a certain bank there
and I wanted it for the Kickapoos, why, I charged that up to the
general fund, and naturally when I paid Mary back I would take it
out of that and ])ay it.
Senator Townsend. Did you take up the $8G.'200 as one side of
your ledger account, and all the money you expended on the other
side ?
Mr. Bentley. Surely.
Senator Toavnsend. Xow, you had more than $86,200, hadn't you?
You kept depositing money you received from different sources, so
that you received more than $86,200?
Mr. Bentley. You see. Senator, this became a separate and dis-
tinct account. After I got the $86,000 I never received from any
source any money exce])t that a woman put $1,000 into the fund, and
you will find that charged to myself there in this account.
Senator Toavnsend. In looking it over the thing that bothers me is
that there is an opportunity here — I am not saying that you have been
dishonest ; I do not know, but it looks to me as if there is an oppor-
tunity here for keeping accounts in such a manner that it would be
absolutely impossible t() find out whether they have been correctly
kept or not. You have mingled moneys back and forth.
Mr. Bentley. Senator, I have had no business of my own. I have
been in no business.
1554 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Senator Townsend. Oh, but you have.
Mr. Bentley. Not during the time I have been handling this
money ; no business whatever. I have had no partners. I have had
no other interest.
Senator Townsend. You have borrowed money from them and
given notes.
Mr. Bentley. Not since I got tliis money ; absolutely no.
Senator Townsend. That was before?
Mr. Bentley. That was before. No, sir; absolutely no. I got
money, Senator, when I was moving these people — that six months of
moving.
Senator Townsend. That was before j^ou received the money?
Mr. Bentley. Surely. I got money anywhere I could. I even
came clear here to Washington. I came here and went to 10 Senators
of the United States and got letters from them. I went to the Mexi-
can ambassador and got letters to the governor of the State of Chi-
huahua.
Senator Townsend. That answers my question as far as that is con-
cerned. I understood you had borrowed some money, and I had sup-
posed you had been borrowing money from these Indians and giving
them 3^our note for it since you got this money.
Mr. Bentley. No.
Senator Townsend. None at all?
Mr. Bentley. Absolutely no. There were some notes out, pos-
sibly, that I have paid off.
The Chairman. You were asked by Eepj'esentative Carter about
some telegrams which you sent and received in 1906. It is getting
pretty late, but there are a number of questions I wanted to ask you
about some telegrams. I shall be glad to have you return later, or
answer the questions now.
Mr. Bentley. As you please.
The Chairman. Did you send a telegram of May 30. 1906. from
Muzquiz, to Chauncej^ A. Eichardson, United States Senate, Wash-
ington, D. C, as follows:
Wire me present stiUus Indian bill. Mexican authorities did me.
M. J. Bentley.
Mr. Bentley. That must be a misprint. I never sent a dispatch
that the Mexican authorities did me. That is a misprint. I may
have sent him some telegram, but not intending to use that language.
What date is that ?
The Chairman. May 30, 1906.
Mr. Bentley. No; I think that is an error in translation or some-
thing.
The Chairman. To refresh your memory, on tlie day that the order
was made by the jefe politico to put you in jail down there, do you
recall sending a telegram to Eichardson ?
Mr. Bentley. I may have. Jj
The Chairman. Who was Eichardson? "
Mr. Benti.ky. Chauncey Eicluirdson is a lawyer here in Washing
ton. He has an office here somewhere. He is a little lame fellow.
Eepresentative Burke. Clerk to the Senate Committee on Indian '
Affairs?
KICKAruO INDIANS. 1555
Mr. BENTLEr. I think at that time, or soon before it, he had been
clerk of the Senate committee, and I am rather inclined to think he
was yet.
The Chairman. The Senate Committee on Indian Affairs?
Mr. Bentley. Yes.
The Chairman. Why were you communicating with him?
Mr. Bentley. Probably because I wanted to know about something
up here or to tell him something about conditions. I vv-as very
friendly with Mr. Kichardson. He is a nice clever little fellow.
The Chairman. Do 3'ou remember receiving a teleaiam dated'
Washington, May 31, 1906:
M. J. Bentley, Muzquiz:
Bill not passed yet. What is situation tliere?
8am Powell.
Mr. Bentley. Candidly, I had forgotten, but I am not surprised
to learn that there was such a telegram, because Mr. Powell, while he
had no great interest in that matter in any way whatever, yet I know
he had a very kindly interest in the outcome of it.
The Chairman. That was the Sam Powell that received the $12,000'
and some?
Mr. Bentley. Yes. He was working with me on the Kickapoo
claim matter.
The Chairman. Do you remember sending the following telegram :
Muzquiz, Hay 31. 1906.
Sam Powell, House InOian Coniiirittce:
Mexican authorities eject wolves from Kickapoo camii. My control absolute.
M. J. Bentley.
Mr. Bentley. Yes. If the Senator will pardon me. I will explain
how I came to send that.
(At the request of the witness the clerk to the commission read the
following telegrams, pages 26 and 27, Senate hearings of 1907:)
Ada. Ind. T., XJay 2S, 1906.
Henry M. Teller,
Care of United Sfates Senate, Washington, D. C:
Senate amendment 136, line 15, strike out "sale and incumbrmico " and add
the word " leasing." Indian agent in Mexico trying to defeat the object of
Congress with large party of white men. If permitted to sell, plan failure. If
permitted to lease, best interest of Indians sut)served. Wire quick ticket agents,
Denton, Tex. My arrest planned by Governmput— help eneinies mh Indians of
their lands. On way Mexico.
M. .1. Bentley.
Aba, Ind. T.. Mai/ ,?5. 1906.
W. S. Field,
620 Colorado Building, Washington. U. C:
See my telegram to Teller. Thackery, Outcelt cooperating with (Jrimes. My
arrest planned so they can rob Indians. Knock out " sale " and insert " leasing."
M. J. Bentley.
Mr. Bentley. Those two telegrams were sent here, notwithstanding
my winter's work. When I learned Mr. Thackery had gone down
there, I knew it was the same old fake investigation. They would
come down there in the advance of the passage of that law to defe^tt
its object. I wired everybody. I did not want that act passed when
it was passed. I tried to defeat it.
1
I
1556 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
The Chairman. I thought you said you initiated the passage of it?
Mr. Bentley. I did. until I found it was going to be the same old
scheme over again.
The Chairman. You discovered in advance of the passage of the
ret that it was going to be used as a means of defrauding the Indians?
Mr. Bentley. Wlien I learned that Outcelt and Thackery had gone
down there — an agent of the department had put me in prison the
year before and had me disgraced, and I knew it would be a repeti-
tion. There was nothing to investigate. Every Indian had testified
before. It was just a scheme to get down there and defeat these In-
dians in their purpose to acquire a home. Therefore I sent these
telegrams in the hope of getting these men who believed this thing
should be done to defeat it. But they would not listen, and the In-
dians were robbed. Xo doubt I did probably send a telegram to
Powell to go and see others and knock it out, rather than have the
Indians subjected to any such danger.
The Chairman. Did you receive this telegram:
Washington. D. C. May 30. 1906.
Mabtin J. Bentley, Muzqwiz:
Conference report before Senate not yet confirmetl, but in no danger.
Moses E. Clapp.
Mr. Bentley. Yes.
The CiTAiRisiAN. Was that in response to a telegram you had sent
to him ?
Mr. Bentley. I do not think so.
The Chairman. Do you know how he came to Avire you that?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir : I really do not.
The Chairman. Had you wired Senator Clapp about the confer-
ence report?
Mr. Bentijsy. If I did. I do not recall it. I had wired him to
knock out this amendment.
The Chairman. Did you have any answer from him as to whether
the amendment had been knocked out?
Mr. Bentley. I think I had an answer from somebody that had
been to see him — he appeared to think I must have "buck ague." ■
The Chairman. Did you send this: ■
MuzQuiz. Mexico. .!/«// 2-5. 1i)06.
Sam Powell, _,
National Hotel, Washington, D. C: K
Looks good here. Bis council td-inorrow. Indians standing pat.
M. J. Bentley.
Mr. Bentley. I expect I did. That is exactly what I would liave
done, because I found the Indians were determined in their purpose.
Then if the prestige of the United States had not been used to break
down the defense I had there, pitting me there alone, I still would
have protected those Indians.
The Chairman. Did you get this telegram:
Washington, D. C, June 21, 1906.
M. J. Benti.ev, .]fHZ<iiiis. Mcriro:
Indian bill signed. No change. Attoiul to matter of cliocks by wire.
Sam Powell.
,<
i
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1557
Mr. Bentley. I may have.
The Chairman. What was the matter of the checks?
Mr. Benti.ey.- I had agreed with Mr. Powell when I left Washing-
ton to collect some money I had in Oklahoma, to pay him some
expense mone}^ here.
The Chairman. You had him employed, had you?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Employed on a salary ?
Mr. Bentley. My" agreement with Powell was not on a salary,
and it was a favorable agreement — to pay him certain expenses. It
was expense money or something. I do not recall just the particu-
lars, but I was to deposit some money somewhere.
The Chairman. Did you get this telegram :
Washington, Jime 2S, 1906.
M. J. Bentley, Muzquiz, Mexico:
Answer former message. We will know what to do. Tired.
Sam Powelx.
Mr. Bentley. I have no recollection of that telegram.
The Chairman. Did you keep the telegrams, Mr. Bentley, that you
received ?
Mr. Bentley. Senator, my papers in the raid in Mexico were
almost all of them lost. One great trunk full there — I never got it.
The Chairman. Now, coming forward in the matter of the tele-
grams, did 3'ou send this telegram?
Washington, D. C, March 12, 1908.
Lee Patrick,
Care of J. B. Charles, Stroud, Okia.:
Thackery wanting trouble, getting Kickapoos to protest, council his office to-
morrow, call him off.
M. J. Bentley.
Mr. Bentley. I think I did.
The Chairman. Did you also send this telegram :
Washington, D. C, March 12, 1908.
. B. Charles, Stroud, Okla.:
Senator says to have Thackery called off to-morrow.
M. J. Bentley.
Mr. Bentley. I think I did.
The Chairman. What Senator did you refer to?
Mr. Bentley. Well, I really don't remember.
The Chairman. What did the Senator have to do with it?
Mr. Benti.ey. I would have to refresh my memory.
The Chairman. You remember sending the telegram?
Mr. Bentley. I remember wiring to Charles and to Patrick both — -
or rather, my impression is now that the chances are the telegram to
Charles was a bluff of some kind. We had a Kickapoo Senator here
at that time, and it was probably him I had reference to.
The Chairman. Who Avas he?
Mr. Bentley. Johnny Mine.
The Chairman. Your mention of " Senator " in that telegram then
referred to a Kickapoo " Senator "?
Mr. Bentley. Yes ; I think so.
The Chairman. What makes you think so?
1558 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Bentley. I have not any reason to believe that there was any
condition, any reason why I would have any right to make any such
reference.
The Chairman. That is what I am trying to find out.
Mr. Bentley. I don't think I had any other in mind probably.
The Chairman. According to your statement, you were trying to
beat the game ?
Mr. Bentley. I would not want to play cards with a man and let
him beat me.
The Chairman. Referring to the matter of your transactions with
individual Indians, did you borrow $2,000 from Emma Garland?
Mr. Bentley. At this time, from memory, I would hardly want to
attempt to say. I can tell you, however, the termination of the Emma
Garland transaction. I think originally. Senator, I had more of her
money than that, because I paid her $1,000 at one time.
The Chairman. Don't you remember whether you borrowed $2,000
from her ?
Mr. Bentley. I think I had more than that. When she died I
think I might have had to use here, it seems to me, seventeen, eight-
een, or maybe nineteen hundred dollars. I never borrowed any; she
came and left it at mv home — I can not say definitely, but I think
$3,000, perhaps $4,000.'
The Chairman. Did you give her this receipt :
Due Emma Garland the sum of $2,000. Payable at convenience of payor.
M. J. Bentley.
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; but I want to explain the conditions under
which I paid that. Emma Garland had my note in proper form for
$2,000. At the time I gave it to her I paid her $300 or $400 in
American money, and she went into a restaurant, and somebody
stole her purse, and my note went with it. One day I met her in the
customhouse on the Mexican side at Ciudad Porfirio Diaz, and she
wanted another note. I said, '' Now, I will give you a receipt or
something to show for your money." And that is the second note or
receipt, or whatever it might be called.
The Chairman. While that fight was going on about the $215,000
you had a libel suit against Thackery, did you not ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes. sir.
The Chairman. Did you offer to dismiss that suit if Thackery
would let you control the council ?
Mr. Bentley. I don't know whether I did or not.
The Chairman. Why don't you know ?
Mr. Bentley. I don't know, for the reason — I am not clear on that.
I think that J. B. Charles, or some of his friends, came and made
negotiations, and there was so much confusion at that time I don't
know just what was proposed. I won't be certain. I know one
thing, that I would have done almost anything in the world to have
got for those Indians the full benefit of the $215,000.
The Chairman. And you may have made that proposition?
Mr. Bentley. I may have. I won't say whether I did or did not.
I don't know.
The Chairman. Did you enter into a contract or deal with Grimes,
that land buyer, under the act of 1906 to pay him $10,000 for control
of the council ?
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1559
Mr. Bentley. No, sir : I never did.
The Chairman. Did you have any transactions or dealing with
Grimes about that?
Mr. Bentley. I would have to refresh my memory.
The Chairman. Can you do that? Do you think j'^ou can refresh
your memory between now and the next meeting?
Mr. Bentley. I think so. I think I can tell you exacth\
The Chairjman. Where are your original checks and vouchers
which you took when you disbursed this $86,000 fund ?
Mr. Bentley. The last I knew of them, Senator, they were at
Shawnee, Okla., at my country home, in a — well, it is a room where
I keep papers and valuables. It was intended for a bathroom, and
there are some drawers and other receptacles there for papers, and
when my family left there a few months ago my papers, so far as I
know, were left there. I will say that it is a wonder if they are there,
because I had supposed this was a closed^ incident. I had been here
and my checks had been gone over, and I did not expect it would
ever be reverted to again. Had I had any suspicion or thought it
would have come up again I would probably have taken better care
of it.
The Chairman. Do you know whether or not they are in the pos-
session of your wife now ?
Mr. Bentley. They are really not in the possession of anybody.
We have left our home there — left it furnished.
The Chairman. Did I misunderstand you when I understood you
to say that she did have your checks and vouchers ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes; she is the only person that does know. Now,
in moving, of course, I say we left everything. We moved our
clothes and some few things, and I don't know really
The Chair:man. \^niere is she now ?
Mr. Bentley. She is at Fitzhugh, Okla., in the Chickasaw Nation.
Our son lives there, and she is there with him. By train it is half
a day to Shawnee. It is only a little way, but it takes a long time to
get around there. I think she would prol)ably be willing to go there
and get them. I am very willing to have them brought here, but she
is so disgusted — I have wasted so much money and deprived my
family so long of money they should have had fighting for these
Kickapoos that she has no more patience with me or the Indians
either. I don't believe she would spend a cent to get all the papers
on earth, or that she cares anything except to wish she had never
heard of it.
The Chairman. There are one or two other questions I want to
ask you, but it is so very late.
Representative Burke. I want to ask him a few questions before
he leaves.
Mr. Bentley. I am going to be here for some days.
Representative Carter. I want to ask one or two questions now.
I believe you said you bought 300 acres of land in the Choctaw
Nation ?
Mr, Bentley. A half section; yes, sir.
Representative Carter. Where is that located ?
Mr. Bentley. Near Fitzhugh, Okla.
Representative Carter. That is in the Chickasaw Nation.
1560 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Bentley. Yes; Chickasaw.
Representative Carter. Whom did you buy it from?
Mr. Bentley. I bought it from the heirs of, I believe, Elsie
Anderson, away back before the laws were changed, when the heirs
of deceased persons could make a title; 1902, I think it was, when
there were so many dead claims.
Representative Carter. Did you have it probated?
Mr. Bentley. No; only a part of it.
Representative Carter. Was it approved by the Secretary of the
Interior ?
Mr. Bentley. No.
Representative Carter. You have not any title, then ?
Mr. Bentley. I don't Imow. I paid $5,000 for it anyway.
Representative Carter. Whom did you say you bought it from ?
Mr. Bentley. I bought it from these heirs. One 80 was pro-
bated, and the attorney who wrote the deed wrote two deeds for one
80 and left the other out, though I paid $1,250 for it.
Representative Carter. I mean who were the grantors?
Mr. Bentley. Of the half section, the east 80 was intermarried
surplus, and it seems to me Lizzie Anderson was the name of the
allottee. It was an old Indian woman that died in the pententiary.
Representative Carter. And the balance was an inherited estate?
Mr. Bentley. It is all inherited except one 80.
Representative Carter. You said one was an intermarried surplus.
Mr. Bentley. One 80. Three other 80's were dead homesteads.
I have been told that the dead homestead was good up to nineteen
hundred and something.
Representative Carter. Did you exercise the same precautions
about titles when you were buying land for the Kickapoos as you
did when you were buying land for yourself?
Mr. Bentley. No; because I was a foreigner over there, and I
got the best attorneys I could find. I did not take any chances.
The Chairman. We are unable to fix a day now when we will
resume, but you will be notified.
(Thereupon, at 11.50 o'clock p. m.. the joint commission adjourned
to meet at the call of the chairman.)
J
SERIAL TWO
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
JOINT COMMISSION OF THE
CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES
SIXTY-THIRD CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
TO
INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS
MAY 8, 13, AND 18, 1914
PART 13
PriBted for the use of the Joint Commission
WASHINGTON
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
1914
JOINT COMMISSION TO INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS.
Congress of the United States.
Senators: Representatives:
JOE T. ROBINSON, Arkansas, Chairman. JOHN H. STEPHENS, Texas.
HARRY LANE, Oregon. CHARLES D. CARTER, Oklahoma.
CHARLES E. TOWNSEND, Michigan. CHARLES H. BURKE, South Dakota.
R. B. Keating, Arkansas, Secretary.
Ross Williams, Arkansas, CTerfc.
I
COJS^TENTS.
I
Testimony of — Page.
M. J. Bentley 1561
Frank A. Thackerv 1642
John A. Bimtin I724
Thomas F. Murphy 1742
III
b
KICKAPOO INDIANS.
FRIDAY, MAY 8, 1914.
Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. G,
The joint commission met in room 128 Senate Office Building at
8 o'clock p. m.
Present: Senators Robinson (chairman), Townsend, and Lane;
Representatives Carter and Burke.
TESTIMONY OF MR. MARTIN J. BENTLEY— Resumed.
The Chairman. Mr. Bentley, Mr. Burke wants to ask you some
questions.
Representative Burke. ^Mr. Bentley, when did you come to Wash-
infjton the first time when you had any business before any com-
mittee of Congress concerning trie Mexican Kickapoo Indians?
Mr. Bentley. It was at tlie time when Senator Pettigrew was
chairman of the Senate committee, as I recollect.
Representative Burke. Some time about 1896?
Mr. Bentley. I think so; I think that was my first appearance
here.
Representative Bl'rke. How many years continuously have you
been at Washington during the sessions of Congress when you were
here on some business concerning this tribe of Indians?
Mr. Bentley. Well, I would hardly be able to say.
Representative Burke. As nearly as you can ?
Mr. Bentley. From 1896 to 1901, oi course, I was the agent in
charge of them.
Representative Bu^rke. From that time on?
Mr. Bentley. And then when I left the service' — I thmk I was here
in 1904.
Representative Burke. All right. 1905?
Mr. Bentley. I was here, I am certain, in 1905.
Re])resentative Bl^rke. Well, go on.
Mr. Bentley. In 1906—1 think in 1907 and 1908. Then there was
one year perhaps that I was not here; maybe two; 1912 I was here
and 1913, as I recollect.
Representative Burke. Then vou have been here practically every
year from 1901 ? ,
Mr. Bentley. Xo.
Re])resentative Burke. Well, what years haven't you been?
Mr. Bentley. My recollection is — fmay have come here in 1902,
but not on any Indian matter. I came here in connection with some
post-office matters. I thhik there have been two or three years since
1904 that I have not been here. I won't be certain.
1561
1562 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Representative Burke. Now, in 1 905 part of your business here was
to secure the removal of restrictions from seven allottees in the Kick-
apoo Reservation in Oklahoma whose land had a value, from your
testimony the other night, of somewhere about $65,000 ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes; I think it surely had that value.
Representative Burke. Now, you initiated that legislation, did
you not ?
Mr. Bentley. Well, it might be so considered. The Indians sent
me here to get it.
Representative Burke. Now, what did you do at that time ?
Mr. Bentley. Well, I just talked to Members of Congress about
it and related the conditions.
Representative Burke. Did you appear before any committee of
either the House or Senate with reference to that matter ?
Mr. Bentley. It seems to me that I either appeared before the
full committee or the subcommittee. I know Senator Stewart was
chairman of the committee at that time, and I talked with him a
good deal about it.
Representative Burke. Was that amendment put in the bill in
the Senate?
Mr. Bentley. I do not know. I was not here ; I left here the day
before it passed, so I don't know.
Representative Burke. You say you left here the day it passed.
It must have been reported before it passed, was it not?
Mr. Bentley. My recollection of it is that when I left here the
Indian appropriation bill was still being considered. It had not
passed. It is my recollection now that the bill was in conference.
Representative Burke. At the last hearing before this you made
the statement that Commissioner Leupp appeared before the com-
mittee of the Senate, and seemed considerably excited over some
provision in the bill with relation to the removal of restrictions, and
you gave the impression that it had reference to this matter, and that
the result of it was a provision went out of the bill that proposed to
to remove the restrictions from some Quapah Indians.
Mr. Bentley. I do not think I intended to give that impression.
It was some item about the Quapahs. I was told by some members
of the conference, or some member of it — I think, two of them —
about Mr. Leupp having come in. Of course, I am only testifying
about what was told me by — I think it was Senator Stewart himself,
perhaps.
Representative Burke. Now, to refresh your memory, I want to
call your attention to the fact that in the bill as it passed the House
there was a provision proposing to remove the restrictions from
two Quapah allotments, one containing 3 acres and one 28 acres;
and the record shows that in the committee of the Senate, when the
bill was reported, the bill was amended by that provision being
stricken out, and the bill passed the Senate in that form, and there
was no provision in the l)ill when it passed the Senate removing
the restrictions from the seven Kickapoo allotments.
Now, it appears that in the conference the item that was stricken
out in the Senate as to two Quapah allotments was reinserted, and
attached to that provision was a provision removing the restrictions
from the seven allotments of the Kickapoos. So it was done, if
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1563
it was done at all by any committee, in conference. Have you
anything to say as to that ?
Mr. Bentley. Of course, I don't know. I was not
Representative Burke. Now, attached to that provision was this
language: '^ Satisfactory evidence having been produced in each
case that the persons to whom patents are issued are qualified to take
care of their ovm interests."
Mr. Bentley. I never submitted any such statement.
Representative Bueke. Now, you stated the other night — and I
understand that it is your position at this time — that it was claimed
that these Indians were competent to manage their own affairs, and
you made the statement that they were not.
Mr. Bentley. I have always so stated to everybody, before every
committee, anywhere and at any time. I have no recollection— 1
am very certain that I never made any such representation as to any
Kickapoos, and as evidence of that, if you will permit me, I desire to
read to this committee just one paragraph
Representative Bx'kke. Now, Mr. Chairman, I think we will get
along more rapidly and I can get through much quicker if Mr. Bentley
answers these questions.
The Chairman. Oh, yes.
!Mr. Bentley. I am very willing to do so.
Representative Burke. And then if he wants to make a speech
after he gets through I shall not object.
Mr. Bentley. I am very willing.
Representative Burke. I simply wanted to put in the record what
the fact is with regard to that transaction. Immediately following
that these lands in the Kickapoo Reservation of the value of $65,000 —
some portion of the allotments, if not all of them — were immediately
conveyed b}" the Indians to you or Mrs. Bontle}^?
Mr. Bentley. Only iwo of them were conveyed.
Representative Burke. Two of them were conveyed ?
Mr. Bentley. To Mrs. Bentley; yes, sir.
Representative Burke. And conveyed absolutely?
Mr. Bentley. Warranty deed; yes, sir.
Representative Burke. Now, you next appeared before commit-
tees of Congress in 1906 ? Is that correct?
Mr. Bentley. Yes: I think so.
Representative Burke. And at that time your business here was
to secure legislation removing restrictions from the allotments of
these Indians who had removed to Mexico ?
Mr. Bentley. Not exactly. That was not exactly what brought
me here.
Representative Burke. Is not that what you did?
Mr. Bentley. That, in fact, was the result; but that was not what
brought me here. I tliink I should be permitted to explain that.
The investigation b}' the Indian Bureau of the matter of the seven
allottees in Mexico — the testimony taken by officers of the Indian
Bureau of those first seven, which was done through a Mexican
court — resulted in such outrages down there that I came here before
the committee, as the record will show, to protest against that and
also again.st the repeal of the law. Th(> committee, after licaiing my
testimony and going into an investigation of tlie alleged outrages to
the Kickapoos down there by officers who canu' there to investigate —
1564 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
out of those hearings grew the act of 1906. Congress went on
farther with it and removed them all; that is, atten pted to remove
the restrictions as to all of them in Mexico.
Representative Burke. Was that legislation put in by the Com-
mittee on Indian Affairs in the iSenate, if you know?
Mr. Bentley. Now, I would have to think a moment. Hearings
were had before the full cojunnttee of the Senate — and they covered
some days and a considerable record — as to the act of 1905. Fol-
lowing that, I think, the act of 1906 m.ay have been offered as a
committee amendment on the floor of the wSenate.
Representative Burke. What is your best recoUectitm as to that?
Mr. Bentley. My recollection is — wc 11, I am not clear on that; but
it occurs to me now that it had been discussed in committee and was
offered as a committee amendment in the Senate.
Representative Burke. Do you know whether it was discussed in
the committee or not ? Did you discuss it in the committee or did you
talk with some member of the committee merely ?
Mr. Bentley. My recollection is that the matter, of removing all
their restrictions, and the land that we wanted to buy — I think I
described the ranch. In fact, I recall — my recollection is that Con-
gressman Slayden and others were called to give testimony as to the
land. That is my recollection.
Representative Burke. I think I can refresh your memory here in
a moment. [After a pause.] I do not find the record; but for the
purpose of refreshing your memory I will say that, unless I am mis-
taken, and I am certain I am not, it was put in on the floor of the
Senate just before the bill passed, as these matters frequently do get
into bills; and I wanted to find out from you, if I could, whether it
was considered and brought to the attention of the full committee or
whether you simply talked with some one member of the Senate
committee.
Mr. Bentley. Oh, it is my recollection that there were very full
hearings; because, if I am not incorrect, Senator Clapp stated on the
floor of the Senate that days had been consumed in the consideration
of the very matter. That is my recollection. I think I have a quo-
tation somewhere from that record.
Representative Burke. Now, following that legislation, how many
deeds did you obtain of land in Oklahoma belonging to Kickapoo
Indians, or where the title was taken by your wife or by some one of
your selection, or by any association of which 3'ou were a part?
Mr. Bentley. Well, it is my recollection that there were two deeds
oidy taken to Mrs. Bentley, and she was present. That was Ah-kis-
kuck's and his wife's deed, and they were so taken b(>cause the Indians
themselves insisted upon making the deed to her. That is my rec-
ollection of the matter. But I think one more — as to the exact num-
ber of deeds taken to Mr. Ives, the trustee for the Kickapoos, to
transfer thes(> lands, I could not give you tlu^ exact number. We
paid usually $100 apiece. I paid the (h'bts of the Inchans, and I paid
them on those 42—42 deeds, it must have been, because my settle-
ment shows $13,000 paid to Inchans on account of 42 deeds. But,
mind you, those lands Jiad alrcnidy been deeded.
Re])resentative Burke. I undeistand; but you are willing to admit
that there were as many as 42?
Mr. Bentley. That is mv recollection, and I think that is correct.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1565
Reprost'iitative Burke. And if you testified before the subcommit-
tee of the House committee in 1912 that there were 55 or 60, do you
think you were mistaken ?
Mr. Bentley. Well, I probably was, because I was probably tes-
tifying from my best memor}'^.
Representative Burke. You are testifying from your recollection
now, are you not ?
Mr. Bentley. My notice was called lately to reviewing my accounts
and there I find 42 Indians — "42 Indian deeds, paid to grantors
$13,000." I judge from that that must have been trie number.
Representative Burke. These deeds were also taken without any
conditions so far as the face of the deed is concerned 'i
Mr. Bentley. That is true; but behind them always was a (k^cla-
ration of trust in proper form.
Representative Buhke. Who held that declaration of trust?
Mr. Bentley. There were two of them; that is, it was made in
duplicati'. Mr. Field, the attorney of the Kickapoos. held one of
them, and the Border National Bank, for the Kickapoo Council, held
the other. They were there in escrow, is my recollection.
Representative Burke. In what form were they executed ?
Mr. Bentley. I have copies of them in the record liere.
Representative Burke. Wliere are the originals ?
Mr. Bentley. They were submitted to the committee investigating
the affairs of the Kickapoos with the other papers, and I think per-
haps were returned to Mr. Field, but I do not know. The originals
were submittt'd to them. They were the usual form of declaration
of trust, and were acknowledged — I am certain that the ones I made
and those that Mr. Ives made, at least, were: I think they all were.
Representative Burke. Now, following the legislation of 1906
you came to Washington again, did you not, for tlie purpose of looking
after matters in which the Kickapoo Indians were concerned ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes; I came. Following the act of 1906 I came
here in tli" interest of getting a settlement with the Government,
getting a claim that the Kickapoos had. Tb.at was the $215,000
itfm.
Representative Burke. That was presented to two or three ses-
sions before it was finally passed, was it ? Do you remember ?
Mr. Bentley. Well, I think it had been in the Indian bill several
times, a little different. We liad tried for some years to get an act
to go to the Court of Claims — the consent of the Government to sue —
is my recollection. But it went out of the bill in the Senat(>, I think.
Representative Burke. Was there ever an item in the bill at any
time that proposed to send it to the Court of Claims i And for the
purpose of refreshing your memory, let me ask vou if there was not a
provision in the bill to pay them $300,000 ?
Mr. Bentley. Not that I recall.
Representative Burke. What was the amount of that claim?
Mr. Bentley. We W(M-e asking $300,000 as a full settlement.
Representative Burke. x\nd did you not ]U'esent your ease and
submit a ]>rovision that you desired to have ineorjiorateil in the bill
fixing the amount at $300,000 ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. If you will pardon me, I have that liere,
and I would like to offer it in the record.
1566 KICKAPOO IKDlAIs^S.
Representative Burke. Well, vou are correct about it. It was
finally agreed upon at S2 15,000? ^
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. Was that put in by the committee, or
did that go in on the floor of the House ?
Mr. Bentley. I would not be certain, but my recollection is that
Senator Teller offered that amendment on the floor, but, I think, as a
committee amendment. I won't be certain.
Representative Burke. I call your attention to the Congressional
Record, page 2655, of the Sixtieth Congress, first session, which
reads as follows:
Mr. Olapp. I offer the amendment I send to the desk to be inserted after line 14,
on page 51.
Mr. Bentley. Perhaps I am incorrect. My recollection was that
Senator Teller offered it. I know he supported it vigorously.
Representative Burke. Is it your opinion that this record is
correct in saying that it was offered b}^ Senator Clapp ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes.
Representative Burke. You have not any explanation to make as
to why it does not appear to have been offered as a committee
amendment ?
Mr. Bentley. No; but my recollection was that it was offered
as a committee amendment. Of course, I can only testify from
memory.
Representative Burke. This reads: ''That there be and hereby
is apj)ropriated, out of any money in the Treasury not other\vise
a]ipropriated, the sum of .1800,000 for the fulfillment of certain
treaty obligations to the Mexican Kickapoo Indians," etc.
Mr. Bentley. I recall now
Representative Burke. Further on it reads: "Said sum of
$215,000 shall be paid," etc. Now, probably the intention was to
make it $215,000, but it seems to read $300,000 in the first part of it.
Mr. Bentley. The reason it was made $215,000 was that that was
witliin a few hundred dollars of the exact amount of the differences
growing out of the last land transactions that the Kickapoos had.
That was the dift'erence between 32^ cents and $1.50 an acre.
Representative Burke. Now, Senator Gallinger wanted some
information about this amendment, and Senator Clapp stated,
according to this record, that if his memory served him correctly this
item was put in the bill in the last Congress. That is the reason I
asked you if it had not been put in in that form.
Mr. Bentley. I think he liad reference to an item with regard to
letting us go to the Court of Claims, which went out in conference,
p(M-haps. My recollection of this — to be frank about it, it was the
outrage and raid of tlie Kickapoos in Mexico — ^the investigation over
tliat resulted in drawing such sympathy to the Kickapoos that, with-
out going to the Court of Claims, Congress passed this act providing
tliis money for tlieir relief.
Representative Burke. The only record I can find, Mr. Bentley,
is that one Senator ofl'ered this amendment on his own responsibility,
not as a committee" amendment; and if there was such a great amount
of sympathy that prompted this action 1 want to find out wJiether it
was gencially unih'istood by the Committee on Indian Afl'airs.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1567
Mr. Bentley. This was immediately following — the iiewspapcis
of the country were full of the investigation of the Kickapoo affairs,
of their names having been forged, and it was a matter that was
talked about a great deal.
Representative Burke. This $215,000 was appropriated, was it
not?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. And then there was a scramble to get
control of the members of the tribe so as to control that money, was
there not ?
Mr. Bentley. That is true. If you will pardon me, as to whether
this was considered in conmiittee, I have the subcommittee's report.
There is certainly a mistake here somewhere. If jou will pardon
me just a mmute — I want the record to be clear. Here is Senate
Document 350, Sixtieth Congress, first session, that is my argument
before the subcommittee in support of the proposition, and it nmst
have had the attention of the full committcu^ because here is the sub-
committee to the full committee. On motion of Senator Brandegee
it was made a public document.
Representative Burke. WiU you show me the report of the sub-
committee.
Mr. Bentley. That is it.
Representative Burke. Just point it out. Where is the report?
Mr. Bentley. I do not know whether there is an}' report or not.
There is the hearing. Senator Brandegee had it printed as a public
document.
Representative Burke. This would appear to have been before
Senators Brandegee, Stone, and Johnston.
Mr. Bentley. They were the ones who considered it.
Representative Burke. That is all right
Ml". Bentley. And that is what leads me to think that, as a matter
of course, it must have been a committee amendment. The sub-
committee considered it. I never had any knowledge to the con-
trary.
Representative Burke. Now, at the time, or prior to the time this
appropriation was made you had had some negotiations with differ-
ent people in Oklahoma, and perhaps elsewhere, with reference to
this tuna, had you not, with reference to what was to be done wnth it?
Mr. Bentley. Well, yes. There was a conditional proposition
submitted to me with regard to it; yes, sir.
Representative Burke. And had you not had some negotiations
with different peo])le going back to 1905, and prior to the act of 1906,
when these restrictions were removed, with reference to the purchase
of land, etc., after the restrictions were removed ?
Mr. Bentley. You mean, as to negotiathig with people in Mexico
for land
Representative Burke. Yes; and also with reference to bu3'^ing
land; that is, buying the' land of the Indian allottee after the restric-
tions were removed, and then using the money to purchase land for
the tribe in Mexico ?
Mr. Bentley. My best recollection is that the only persons with
whom I had in any way considered that matter were a Mr. Patrick
and a Mr. Graham. It occurs to me that they looked uj) a tract of
country that was said to be very suitable for Indians in Mexico, and,
1568 KICKAPOO INDIANS,
while I did not ^o with them, I think I conferred with them before
they went, and perhaps after the}^ returned. Those are the only
jiersons thut T recollect.
Representative Burke. Well, what about — to refresh your mem-
ory— a conference at Stroud, at the home of Mr. Charles?
Mr. Bentley. Well, he is of the same company.
Re])resentative Burke (continuing). At which were present Mr.
Field, Mr. Sam Powell, Mr. Conklin, Mr. Charles, Mr. Graham, and
Mr. Lee Patrick. Do you remember anythino; about that?
Mr. Bentley. Yes.
Representative Burke. What was the purpose of that conference?
Wliat were you there for?
Mr. Bentley. Well, I would have to think a moment; that was
a good while ago. It was in connection — as I recollect, Mr. Charles,
Mr. Patrick, and Mr. Graham, and their associates had a trust com-
pany at Skyatook, Okla., and it seems to me that —my recollection is
that at that time some negotiations were made looking to making
tlvat trust company the company through which whatever emigra-
tion there might be to Mexico should be transacted. That is one of
the things that, if I am correct, I feel very certain was discussed at
that time.
Representative Burke. Now, did you discuss the question of
getting the Indians to go to Mexico and tlie question of securing
legislation lemoving restrictions from sucli Indians as did go to
Oklalioma ?
Mr. Bentley. You mean to Mexico ?
Representative Burke. To Mexico — and tlien purchasing the land
and using tlie proceeds in the purchase of a tract of land in ISIexico ?
Mr. Bentley. Well, I can hardly answer your question just as you
have propounded it. There was never at any time any negotiations
looking to inducing any Indians to go. Wluitever there may have
been it was along the line of finding or ])roviding a way to enable
those v/ho would be permitted to go, those that Avanted to go. They
all wanted to go; they want to go now.
Representative Burke. Was not that legislation that was obtained
in 1906 for the purpose of removing these restiictions discussed at
that time?
Mr. Bentley. Well, I would not say that that identical legis-
laion was discussed. I think there was considerable discussion over
the proposition of legislation
Representative Burke. Now, was it not practically understood
that that was to be done, and that the men who w^ere to take care of
the obtaining of the legislation were yourself and Mr. Field, and that
you and Mr. Field came to Washington subsecpient to this conference,
and this legislation was obtained ?
Mr. Bentley. Well, I am quite certain — I do not think at that
time it was xuiderstood that Mr. Field was to have very much to do
with it. ■ '
Representative Bxtrke. Who was there?
Mr. Bentley. Mr. Field was there, but I think he had some other
business with them.
Representative Burke. WTiat was Mr. Patrick's business at that
time ?
Mr. Bentley. Mr. Patrick was a banker.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1560
Representative Burke. Wliat was Mr. Graham's business?
Mr. Bentley. Mr. Graham is a business man, and I think also at
that time he was mterestcd in the C harles chain of banks.
Representative Burke. There was some conference you had with
these gentlemen, and the question of obtaining this $300,000 or
$215,000 was discussed, was it not?
Mr. Bentley. I do not tliink so. I feel very certain that the time
you refer to no mention whatever was made of that.
Representative Burke. Or at any subsequent time?
Mr. Bentley. I talked ^vitll Mr. Charles after that about it. In
fact, I met him on my train from Washington and had a little talk
with him. He got on the train I was c()ming into Oklahoma on.
Representative Burke. Was there any suggestion that if you got
this money appropriated you would deposit a considerable portion of
it in the banks of these gentlemen at Stroud and Chandler?
Mr. Bentley. There was this understanding. If this money was
received by me, the whole sum, that part of the fund that would go
to the so-called progressive element of the Kickapoos until it would
be used — my plan was, those I already had in Mexico were to be
taken care of first, and in the meantime I was perfectly willing to
have deposited the fund that would have gone to the progressives
until money should be required to buy them a home over there with
Charles & Co.
Representative Burke. You could have answered that question
more briefly. Then there was some talk about depositing the money
in the banks of these gentlemen ?
Mr. Bentley. A part of it.
Representative Burke. Was there any understanding between
you and these gentlemen you have named by which they were to
furnish money to buy land and have three-fifths of the profit ?
Mr. Bentley. I think there had been a proposition that Charles,
Conklin & Co., including a man by the name of Hoffman — Peter
Hoffman — they were to buy — I can not recall the tract — a 75,000-
acre tract of land in old Mexico; and a part of that tract they were
going to retain and a certain part of it they were willing to sell to
Indians. It was a larger tract than they wanted for themselves, and
I think there was some talk of that kind.
Representative Burke. Thoy W(n-e to have three-fifths of the
profits ?
Mr. Bentley. I would not try to be certain as to that.
Representative Burke. What was the amount of money they
agreed to put up, if you romembcr?
Mr. Bentley. Well, I think it took— I won't be certain, but it
took a very large sum. If I recollect correctly, it took $400,000.
Representative Burke. Was there not some understanding by
which they were to put u]) $20,000 ?
Mr. Bentley. I do not recall any such amount.
Representative Burke. To refresh your memory, did not Mr.
Graham go down to the Mexican Hue at one time afterwards?
Mr. Bentley. Mr. Graham and Mr. Patrick went afterwards ajid
inspected a part of this large tract of land, but I do not recollect any
instance of any $20,000 ])ro])osetl purchase.
Representative Burke. Did you have any conversation with any
of these gentlemen wherein you made any statement that it would
1570 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
be necessary to expend some money, even to the extent of intimating
that there were certain people in Washington that would have to be
taken care of?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir; I do not think——
Representative Burke. You never made any such statement?
Mr. Bentley. I do not think I did.
Representative Burke. Some reference was made in the hearing
the other night to a telegram wherein there was some suggestion about
a Senator. Have you thought since who that Senator was or who
was referred to ?
Mr. Bentley. I feel now as I did the other night, that probably
that was a kind of joke telegram
Representative Burke. You think that was a joke telegram?
Mr. Bentley. I think that was simply a bluff to Charles to get him
to move; yes, sir. That is my recollection now, that the Kickapoo
''Senator" was here, and it was him that I had reference to.
Representative Burke. But there was an understanding between
you and some of these people that I have named that there were to
be some lands purchased and there was to be a division of profits?
Mr. Bentley. Well, that was only a tentative matter. It was
talked about. There was never any papers signed and no money
paid. It appeared there was a great tract of land over there that
could be acquired to advantage. It was desirable for Indians. They
were men of large means. I was very eager at that time to find a
home for the Indians and there was no money available.
Representative Burke. You were pretty active in trying to get the
Indians to go from Oklahoma over to Mexico at the time the S2 15,000
was appropriated, so that you could control that council, were you
not?
Mr. Bentley. I already had a majority over there, and the Indian
Office invaded Mexico and ran them out. There was a very spirited
fight. One officer of that department walkefl 25 miles in the night-
time and coaxed some of the weaker ones away.
Representative Burke. You admit you were trying to get control ?
Mr. Bentley. I certainly was. I was trying to secure money to
buy those people a home, and I did anything and everything possible.
Representative Burke. And if you could have carried your point
you would have taken for the Mexican Kickapoos the whole $215,000 ?
Mr. Bentley. Oh, absolutely, no. And as a reason to show this
committee positively that I would not have done that, those who
voted me their trustee — I paid them every cent of their money, as
I would have paid all the others. I would not have thought for a
moment of requiring any of them to stay there. It perhaps would
have been better for them to stay there. Joe Whipple, one of the
allottees who elected me his trustee, and an Indian by the name of
Mah-kah-se-ah came back to the United States, and I paid them
every dollar of their money.
Representative Burke. Out of this $215,000 there was paid you
$26,875, if that is the correct amount
Mr. Bentley. My recollection is that it was $28,875.
Representative Burke. It was a commission of 12^ per cent?
Mr. Bentley. Yc s, sir; on the $215,000.
Representative Burke. You stated the other night that $5,000 was
paid to Mr. Field ?
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1571
Mr. Bentley. Ultimately, it terminated that way in the settle-
ment. I intended to pay him $2,000
Representative Burke. And $10,000 to Powell?
Mr. Bentley. $12,250.
Representative Burke. What did Mr. Powell do to get $12,250?
Mr. Bentley. Well, he had been here a good many years trying
to get into the Court of Claims. My agreement with him originally
was that if he could aid us in getting into the Court of Claims I would
divide whatever fee there might be with him. But the time came
when the condition of the Kickapoos was such, and such an emergency
existed, that rather than wait and get a million or a million and a half
when they were dead, I thought it would be better to take something
to buy them a home with now. In the meantime. Mr. Powell had
grown old and sick — in fact, when he died his estate was mortgaged.
Representative Burke. Do you know whether he divided tliat
with anybody else ?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir; if he did, I have no knowledge. I feel very
certain that he did not, because he was heavily in debt. His widow
has told me that the money I gave him saved his family from being
put out of doors.
Representative Burke. Now, in 1912, you again appeared in
Washington for the purpose of obtaining a further appropriation
for these Mexican Kickapoos, did you not?
Mr. Bentley. Not exactly in that sense.
Representative Burke. That is what you did ? You made that
your business ?
Mr. Bentley. I came here seeking a reimbursement to their com-
munal fund for the fund I had been compelled to expend in defend-
ing them against the outrages, as I then felt and feel now, of the In-
dian Office. That was my business here. I had expended more
than $50,000 of their tribal fund in protecting them against these
officers of the United States, and I came here seeking reimburse-
ment; yes, sir.
Representative Burke. What was the amount vou claimed was
due ?
Mr. Bentley, Fifty-some thousand; fifty-seven, I believe. That
is my recollection. We finally got through the Senate with $42,000.
Representative Bltrke. It was $55,000, was it not ?
Mr. Bentley. $55,000 or $57,000.
Representative Burke, $55,089.20?
Mr, Bentley. I believe it was something like $55,000.
Representative Burke. At that time a provision was incorporated
in the Indian appropriation bill, offered on the floor of the Senate,
proposing to pay $42,000 for this claim you were making, was there
not?
Mr, Bentley. I think so. My understanding was — I was not pres-
ent when it was considered — but my understanding was that there
were certain items of attorney fees and things cut out of the $55,000,
and an agreement was reached as to $42,000, and that passed the
Senate and was agreed to in conference.
Representative Burke. You urg(^d that claim notwithstanding the
fact tnat the act appropriating $215,000 expressly provided it was to
be in full of all claims or d(^mands of the Kickapoo Indians against
the United States ?
1572 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Bentley. The Mexican Kickapoo Tribe; yes, sir.
Representative Burke. And in the hearings you stated that you
were perfectly willing that it should be in full
Mr. Bentley. It was in full.
Representative Burke. And nevertheless you were^back here—^ —
Mr. Bentley. No: I was not back here for the Kickapoo Tribe.
1 was here for the Mexican community, the Mexican band of the
Kickapoos.
Representative Burke. I understand, from your statement made
a few years ago, you claim that the receipt in full was the tribe as a
whole,' and that did not include the Mexican end of it ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; it did not include the band.
Representative Burke. If you will read what you stated in the
hearings that you called my attention to a moment ago, I think you
mil find you stated emphatically that these Indians would make no
further claim on the Linited States; that they were in Mexico, and
that this would be the end of it.
Mr. Bentley. I am very certain that if the Department of the
Interior had let them alone and they had gotten the benefit of the
$215,000 they never would have returned here, but they did not get
one-half (^f it. i • u
Representative Burke. Mr. Chairman, I want to read into the
record the amendment that passed the Senate at that time, ofi"ered
not as a committee amendment, but on the floor of the Senate:
For the purpose of reimbursing the trust funds of the Kickapoo community in Mex-
ico, said fund having been created under the provision of the act of Congress of April
30 ' 1908 for legal expenses necessarily incurred in defending said community, its
funds, lands, and members from fraud, the Secretary of the Treasury is hereby author-
ized and directed to pay to Okemah, who is now trustee of said community, the sum
of $41,000, the same to be immediately available.
That was the provision you were trying to have enacted ?
Mr. Bentley. First.
Representative Burke. And that passed the Senate, did it not ?
Mr. Bentley. I think so.
Representative Burke. And that provided that the money should
be paid to Okemah? , . i i
Mr. Bentley. Either to him or to him by order ot the council;
yes. sir.
Representative Burke. At the same time did you not nave another
amendment you were very much concerned about with reference to
the lease money that might be due these Indians that had removed to
Mexico, as to how that money was to be paid ? ■ , ,
Mr Bentley. I do not think I had very much to do with that.
It was looked after by Mr. Field. In fact, I had no concern m that.
Representative Burke. I want to read into the record, :\lr. Chair-
man, this amemhnent, which was also offered on the floor of the
Senate :
That the Secretary of the Interior be, and he is hereby, authorized and directed to
immediately be caused to be deposited to the credit of the Indian owner, in the lirst
National Bank of Douglas, Ariz., all money known as lease money now on deposit
with or in any manner under the control of the agents and ofhcers ot the interior
Department, and all like money due or becoming due or collectible by them prior to
the 1st day of January, 1914, and belonging to any of the Mexican Kickapoo Indiana
now resident in the Republic of Jlexico. The receipt of such bank for any such money
shall operate as the receipt of the Indian owner and as a com])lete release of all liability
on the part of the officer paying the said money as herein directed.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 157?
Mr. Bentley. Yes; I think that should have passed, too.
Representative Burke. You favored that, did you not ?
Mr. Bentley. I did not draw it, but I should have been in favor
of it.
Representative Burke. I am glad to have you acknowledge it,
because I think you are honest when you say that.
Mr. Bentley. I certainly was. I wanted the Indians to get their
money.
Representative Burke. Now, out of this $215,000 you got $86 000
and some odd ? '
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. And you purchased some land in Mexico ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. An.d you got a deed for that land, did you,
or what they call a deed hi Mexico?
Mr. Bentley. It is a deed; an absolute deed— not exactly. The
Indians voted that the same trustees that had their money should
receive the title to that land, and wisely so
Representuti^ e Burke. I understand, Mr. Bentley, that you did not
do anything at any time except as the Indians wanted it done. You
keep putting that in.
lou took that title in the names of yourself and Okemah ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. There was no trust?
Mr. Bentley. There could not be under the Mexican law.
Representative Burke. There was not any in the deed, was there «
Mr. Bentley. No.
Representative Burke. And there was not any executed on vour
part ? "^
Mr. Bentley. Yes; there was a declaration of trust executed by
me, very formally, and by Okemah.
Representative Burke. What did you do with it?
Mr. Bentley. I dehvered it to Mr. Field.
Representative Burke. Mr. Field held this declaration of trust «
Mr. Bentley. I think he did.
Representative Burke. Now, for the purpose of refreshing your
memory, I will ask you if you did not state, and if you did not pro-
duce this so-called declaration of trust two years ago before the sub-
'Comimttee of the House, and that it was an instrument signed by
icertam Indians, and that your name or the name of Okemah was not
attached to it at all ?
I Mr. Bentley. I surely have no recollection of what you are referring
jto, Mr. Burke, because the declaration of trust that I drew in relation
|to Tomechopo was in the exact form I drew as to other lands, and I
,3igned it and acknowledged it always.
Representative Burke. If you will go over to the House Indian
Lommittpe to-morrow and ask to see the transcript of your statement
made at that time you will find that that is what you did testify to;
md you will also find you produced tliis instrument, and it was agreed
.0 be incorporated m the record, but it does not appear to be there.
3ut that IS what the record shows, and that is my very distinct
recollexjtion of that transaction at that time when this matter came
ip, when members of the House committee— and subsequently in
35001— I'T 13—14 2
1574 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
conferences on the part of the Senate — refused absolutely to do any-
thing whatever in regard to your claim of $41,000 until you did
execute some proper declaration of trust.
Mr. Bentley. I volunteered to do that. I said I was willing. I
have always said that. I have never anywhere at any time made any
claim to this land.
Representative Burke. I have been through the records in all the
hearings pretty carefully, and the only place I can find any record
of any such declaration on your part is at the time you were here
getting this $41,000, or trying to get it.
Mr. Bentley. But I submit to the committee that a man buying
an Indian reservation, known as their trustee, laying no claim to it,
buying it with their money — the manner that I held that was so
notorious that even had I executed no declaration my heirs could not
have claimed any interest in that land.
Representative Burke. Had you made any will ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; I had.
Representative Burke. Now, is not that the only instrument you
executed
Mr. Bentley. No; I executed immediately when I came out of
Mexico after taking that deed. I went to a stenographer and did
execute a proper declaration of trust, because I was in bad health at
that time, and I felt that if I did not do it
Representative Burke. Is that declaration in existence now?
Mr. Bentley. I delivered such a one to the attorneys for the
Indians.
Senator Townsend. I wish you would complete yoin* answer.
You said you ''felt"
Mr. Bentley. I was in bad health at that time. I really did not
expect I was going to live very long, and I thought it was the proper
thing to do. I felt it might be thought I had been unfair or that it
was a reckless thing to have done, should anything happen to me, and
at my first opportunity I did the only thing I could do, and that was
to declare that I had no interest in the property other than holding
it in trust.
Representative Burke. Where did you deposit that will?
Mr. Bentley. That was not a wiU; that was a declaration of trust.
Representative Burke. Did you deposit that with Mr. Field?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. Is not that the instrument you produced^
when I spoke of tlie time
Mr. Bentley. Oh, no, sir. The declaration of trust, as I recall,
that I executed immediately following taking their titles — the title
to Tomechopo — I think, was deposited in the First National Bank
with other papers of the Kickapoos.
Representative Burke. You produced an account here the other
evening of the moneys that you had expended.
Mr. Bentley. That was a mcmoranchun only. That is not an
account in such shape as I would be willing to attest. The committee
asked me to bring anything I had here, and I brouglit that. That is
aU I had.
Representative Burke. Where did you get it ? "^
Mr. Bentley. I had it among my papers.
Representative Burke. It is a carbon copy apparently? ^^
I
KICKAPOO INDIANS. ] 575
Mr Bentley. A carbon copy, or one of three copies that was prc-
pareci liere at one tnne. It was the only thhi^ I liad available, and
it IS practically correct.
_ Representative Burke. Tid you not feel called upon after receiv-
ing that money— did you not think that you ought to make an
accounting m due form to somebody?
]\Ir. Bentley. I did.
Representative Burke. Who did vou make it to ?
Mr^ Bentley To the same committee that liad been investigating
the Kickapoo affairs. I came clear here to do it.
Representative Burke. Did you deposit with some member of that
committee a copy ?
Mr. Bentley. I did.
RrpiYsontative Burke. With whom?
Mr. Bentley. Senator La FoUette and Senator Curtis spent some
hours over this matter. I came here with a large walrus-hide o-rip
with my checks and bdls and vouchers and everythi' g that pt^rtai'^ied
to that account; and lat; r on Mr. Fi Id and Mr. Hannan checked and
numb ird th • checks on each bar.k, and had ia a s parate envelope the
ch( cks of each bank; in another envelope the bills of Haymore & Co
th • trading firm through whom th se purchases had been made 'l
had a r. c ipt m prop, r form for those whole expenditures, ami this
memorandum prcs nted here is a list of the checks and the banks on
which 1 drew them, and that is practically cornet. There was one
it( m in th re that may have been charged twice by oversit^ht
Reprrs ntative Bubke. The original of which this purports to be
a cop.y wrs d posited, if I understand you correctly, with one of the
ben a tors who w> re uK^mbeis of a subcommittee?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
R prs r.tative Burke. Now, which one?
Mr Bentley. It was turned over at the time of the meetincr of
benotor Curtis and Senator La Foil tte. Which one took it I do
not know, but I apprehend that Mt. Hannan probably elid
R prs ntative Burke. W[\o is Mi-. Hannan «
Mr Bentley. Senator La Follette's secretary. I won't be certain
as to that.
Repr s;>ntative Burke. Have you seen it since «
Mr. Bentley. No, sir.
Rrpr sertative Burke. Have you made any inquiry about it to
asci^rt}!! wnether Mr. Hannan has it in his possession?
Mr. Bentley. No; I have not.
Ropr; sen tative Burke. Do you know whether th(> paper you pro-
duc' (I h-re the other Tight is a copy of that statement ?
Mr. Bentley. I thirk it is.
Representative Burke. Do you know wliether it is «
Mr Bentley. ^1 lieie were three of them made. One was given to
Senator Ciapp, and the other was for the subcommittee and delivered
to them. I think they have it. I am not certain what became of it
but this was my retained copy. Then later that was re%a^ed I
iiave another one somewhere that is correct, but it is home with my
pliecks and things. •'
l^T^'^^^f^ Burke When was it you made that statement
!in(l gave it to these Senators ?
'juty 'lofr'^"''^' ^''^'' ^''""^ '^''' i'l -that must have been in June or
1576 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Eepresentative Burke. That was, then, after you got the money?
Did you get the money in June, 1908 ?
Mr. Bentley. I got the money June 22, 1908. Then, of course, I
was in Mexico most of the time, and it was soon after I turned over
the balance of the funds in my hands to my cotrustee, as soon as I
conveniently could, after that I came on here to make a settlement
and a final accounting. That must have been — I guess that was in
1909, perhaps.
Representative Burke. You are not certain about that?
Mr. Bentley. 1909 or 1910. It seems to me it was 1909.
Representative Burke. When you were here trying to get this
$41,000 item and this provision for the depositing in the bank in
Arizona of lease money, you had a statement of account at that
time of tlie moneys you had expended, had you not ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes; that is how that copy came to be here in
Washington — that memorandum I had here.
Representative Burke. You had an additional statement showing
this $50,000 that you claimed v.^as due, had you not?
Mr. Bentley. Mr. Field had that, and I also.
Representative Burke. What has become of that statement ?
Mr. Bentley. I think it is filed with the clerk of the committee of
the Senate.
Representative Burke. Do you know whether it was or not?
Mr. Bentley. I am not certain.
Representative Burke. You Jiave not seen it since two years ago?
Mr. Bentley. Yes; I saw it the other day in JVIr. Field's office.
Representative Burke. Mr. Field's office?
Mr. Bentley. Yes.
Representative Burke. Then you think Mr. Field has it instead of
the committee ?
Mr. Bentley. Well, he was there conferring with me about sonie
items that had been left out before. That is how I came to see it,
and my understanding was that he intended to file it with the full
committee of the Senate.
Representative Burke. Now, that statement showed expenditures
of money to Mr. Field, did it not, out of this trust fund of $86,000,
and you were seeking an appropriation from Congress to reimburse
the fund for moneys that had been expended, part of it, to Mr. Field?'
]Mi\ Bentley. Some very small part.
Representative Burke. And some part to yourself?
Mr. Bentley. N >.
Representative Burke. None to you?
Mr. Bentley. No.
Representative Burke. You are certain about that?
IVIr. Bentley. Well, not directly to me. Since making this settle-
ment and turning over this balance, indirectly I became responsible,
for $8,250. Four Kickapoo deeds failed that a man had taken and'
sold the land and turned all the money over. The tribe had used it.
That failed. He did that at my instance, and I felt just as you would"
feel if somebody had indorsed your note. My interest in getthig the
matter of .$15,000 was that $8,250 of that should go to pay that war-
ranty, and then I was wiUing to deed the reservation. I would have;
been unwiUing to deed over the Kickapoo Reservation in Mexico^ —
Representative Burke. Then you were not always ready and will-
ing to deed it over ?
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1577
Mr. Bentley. When tJic tiire cujue I found I was going to be
responsible for S8,250 I should liavc felt like lidding it
Representative Bueke. Was $8,250 of that amount used for tliis
purpose that you speak of ?
Mr. Bentley. I am. unable to sav. I paid tjic $8,250 and I deeded
the reservation over. If you recall, I said to tjie conferees "If you
will appropriate tliis money I will deed the land." You appropriated
the money, and I did, and it is paid.
Representative Burke. Who ])aid it?
Mr. Bentley. I paid it.
Representative Burke. 'VA^io reimbursed you ?
Mr. Bentley. Tliat is a cpiestion.
Representative Burke. Tiiat is the questi< n I am asking you
Mr. Bentley. Tlie facts of the matter wc.re these: TJie pw-sons to
wlK.m Mr. Ives ]iad warranted tjicse fniir tra-ts (^f land were in court
sumg liim to make good his warranty. Under the law of Oklahoma
10 per cent was due them. Tliese judgments were about to be taken.
It could n(^t be delayed any Linger, and I sold my ran h for $6 000
or $7,000 less than its value and paid it.
Re])resentative Burke. WJio paid vou ? Are 3^ou out that amount ?
Mr. Bentley. I am out a good deal of it. How much I do not
know.
Representative Burke. About how much were you reimbursed ?
Mr. Bentley. It is impossible of determination at tliis time.
Representative Burke. Is it so large or so small ?
Mr. Bentley. The value of the thing that I get as a reim])uive-
ment is indefinite and uncertain. No man can tell whether I wiU
get much or Httle. I have some town lots adjoining Shawnee to
show for my $8,250.
Representative Burke. Where did you get them?
Ur. Bentley. They belonged to an Indian, and the Kickanoo
Community, through its treasurer, became responsible to the Imhan
Iigurmg the balance of this property at $8,250
^ Representative Burke. You took some propertv from an indi-
vidual Indian ?
Mr. Bentley. No.
Representative Burke. Then, what?
Mr. Bentley. :Mr. Ives had some ])ropertv that belonged to an
Indian—to Okemah— and Mr. Mitscher l)rought a power of attorney
from Ukem«b to make a settlement with Mr. Ives, and the commu-
nity luiid became responsi])le to Okemah, as I understand it, to the
extent of $8,250, which was the value originally placed on these
lots. But there is $1,500 taxes, a mortgage to "foreclose, and the
town has gone dovrn.
Representative Burke. Were the lots deeded to you «
Mr. Bentley. No; the lots were h(>ld bv Ives in trust, gromng
I out of the sale of two IncUan allotments there.
Rei>re entative Burke. Then v< u have not got anything whatever
'for y(.ur $8,250 ? >^ j ^
Uv. Bentley. No, : ir; except that Mr. Ives, of course, wiU deed
me at any ti re whatever equity or value there may be to those lots.
Kut 1 do not know what that vaiue is. I know this. I know that
i am rut the chflVrcn-e between $10,500 and al)out $16,000 or $17 000
tor my ranch. It was a f< r- ed sale. 1 had to have this monev or let
1578 KICKAPOO INDIANS. | ;
judgment be taken against Ives, and I sold my ranch at at least $4,000
less than its value. In a few wxeks it sold for $14,000, and lately it ,
gold, I am infer Aied, for $19,000. I did not get any great benefit
out of the $15,000.
Representative Burke. You got no part of that?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir.
Representative Burke. Do you know whether Ives did or not? ;
Mr. Bentley. I do not think he did.
Repre-entative Burke. Do you know v/hcther he did get that
$15,000?
Mr. Bentley. Only from hearsay.
Representative Burke. Let us hear from hearsay.
Mr. Bentley. I under tand it was drawn cut of the treasury by
the trea urer ( f the Kiekapoo comnninity.
Representative Burke. Who is that?
Mr. Bentley. O. A. Mitscher.
Representative Burke. Who is O. A. Mitscher?
Mr. Bentley. He is a business man at Oklahoma City, who is the
trustee, or the trea urer, ( f the Kickapoo community of Mexico.
Representative Burke. What were his relations with you, if any,
while yoii were trustee ?
Mr. Bentley. Never any, other than this, that Mr. Mitscher at
that time was considered a man very strong financially. He had a
wholesale and a retail business, and I used to lend Mitscher — Miller,
Mitscher & Co. it was
Representative Burke. ^^Tiose money did you lend to Mr.
Mitscher ?
Mr. Bentley. I loaned him $7,000 of Kickapoo trust funds.
Representative Burke. At what rate of interest ?
Mr. Bentley. Ten per cent.
Representative Burke. "VATio got the 10 per cent? I
Mr. Bentley. The community. i
Representative Burke. Did you credit the fund? 1
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. Does your statement of account that you
filed show these transactions and the benefit that the fund received
from mterest that was collected ?
Mr. Bentley. It w^as very little; the tune was very short. Mr.
Mitscher paid me at one time $100 mterest, and that was deposited in
the Bank of Commerce at vShawnee, if I recollect. It made oui
deposits there $21,000, I think.
Representative Burke. Who became the tiiistee when you sur-
rendered the trust and turned over the balance of this money ?
Mr. Bentley. Okemah, who was my cotrustee.
Representative Burke. Mr. Mitscher did not have anything to do
with that ?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir; not at that time, but Okemah turned over
the funds that I turned over to him to the bank that Mr. Mitscher was
also treasurer of.
Re])resentative Burke. That is what I thought.
Mr. r>ENTLEY. Of course, I had nothing to do with that.
R( pres-ntative Burke. That was b.fore this corporation was
forni'd ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1579
Representative Burke. Mr. Milsclier was in control of this fund,
whatever there was h ft, or the corporation of Avhich he was an oilicer?
INIi'. Bextley. Sur<:ly. I want to make one point clear. I was in
terrible distress over that matter. There was about $25,000 in cash
yet in my hands, and it seemed I could not live in Oklahoma and
hold it, because the moment I came within the jurisdiction of the
district court wliere I lived I became amenable to that court, service
would have been gott; n on me, and the attorneys that the Indians
had contracted with would have gotten 25 per cent of that $25,000.
I had not been to Mexico for some months, and I knew considerable
debts had been contracted there, so I wrnt around Oklahoma and
went to Mexico and paid all their debts, and bought some additional
equipment, and provided money to repair the ditch — $600 — and
for the paym(>nt of $50 each, which left $10,000 in cash or New York
exchange, and that I indorsed over to Okemah, and also those notes.
So that he might not be swindled out of it I indorse d this draft, "Pay
to Okemah when indorsed by the International Trust Co," so some-
body could not figure him out of it.
Representative Burke. What kind of Ind-an is this man Okemah ?
Mr. Bentley. Okemah is a very smart Indian and a man who
neither drmks nor gambles. Pie is morally as clean a man as ever
lived.
Representative Burke. He speaks English ?
Mr. Bentley. Pretty good Enghsh, but he can not read.
Representative Burke. Then, he is not a business man ?
;Mr. Bentley. Not in that sense, and 3'et it would take an awful
shrewd business man to figure Okemah out of anything.
Representative Burke. Was there not more or less dissension a
few years ago in the Mexican community because of the fact that
the title to tliis land was being held by you and Okemah ?
Mr. Bentley. I do not think so, except this: 1 think my enemies
were probably persistent in telUng the Kickapoos I was going to
beat them out of it, and several tilings contributed to make dis-
satisfaction, and these two Indians who are here persisted in gambhng
and ha^dng the Mexicans come there and gamble ^^^th them. Mr.
Gostin would not have it, and that seriously interfered \nth the
peace of the community.
Representative Burke. After the $215,000 was appropriated and
you were anxious to get control of the majority of the tribe you had
a suit pending, I believe, against Mr. Thackery for libel?
Mr. Bentley. For slander and libel, yes.
Representative Burke. Did you ofl'er to dismiss that suit if he
would allow you to get control of that matter?
Mr. Bentley. I can not say that I did, that it was any direct
proposition. I tliink Mr. Thackery 's friends talked to me along
this line, that there was no good to come out of this fight, that it
was the other man that was responsible more than Mr. Thackery,
and prc^bably it would be a good thing to close up these old scores.
Reprej-entative Burke. You were willing to do that, but there was
a condition attached to it, that you v/ere to control this council, was
there not ?
Mr. Bentley. I could not say there wa-^ or wa; not. The facts
were tliat I was willing to make any sacrifice to succeed in getting
these Indians a home in ^lexico.
1580 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Repre^ientative Burke. I under-tand you were willing to make
that sacrifice to get this $215,000 for these Indians.
Mr. Bentley. And this should be borne in mind, that Mr. Thackery
and a Mr. Dickson were the persons sued.
Representative Burke. Was there not an agreement signed by you
by which you agroed to di^mi^s that suit?
Mr. Bentley. If there was, I iiave no recollection of it.
Representative Burke. My recollection is that in the hearings, I
think, before our subcommittee, such an agreement was made a part
of the record, acknowledged before Lee Patrick, a notary public.
Mr. Bentley. I feel very certain, Mr. Burke, you are mistaken,
although I wiU not say that you are.
Representative Burke. At that time was Mr. Thacker}" holding
any official position ?
Mr. Bentley. He was superintendent of the Shawnee Training
School.
Repre-entativo Burke. He was an official of the Indian Office,
holding the position of superintendent at the Shawnee School, was he ?
Mr. Bentley. Ye-, sir ; if you call a school superintv^ndent an official,
he was.
Representative Bup^ve. That i> all.
Mr. Bentley. I want to say, however, that those negotiations
had nothing to do with his official duty there.
The Chairman. You made a verified statement— you, Mr. Field,
and Mr. Alitsclier — purporting to cover this $41,000 and more that
you v/ere claiming in 1912 ?
Mr. Bentley. It is my recollection that I did; yes, sir; from in-
formation and belief.
The Chairman (handing a paper to the witness). I will ask you to
look at this and see if that is, in your opinion, a copy of the state-
ments made by you and Mr. Field and Mr. IVIitscher. Here is a
photographic copy of the original if yoa care to look at that also.
Mr. Bentley. I think that is correct.
The Chairman. Were these three accounts, verified by you, Mr.
Field, and Mr. Mitscher, prepared in conjunction with one another?
Mr. Bentley. I have no reference there to any except the account
I prepared. I do not know anything about any account but mine.
The Chairman. Did you examine the accounts prepared bv ^Ir.
Field and Mr. Mitscher?
Mr. Bentley. I do not think I did. I think I was testifying to
the account that had been prepared reporting the expenditures I
had made in defense of the community. I do not think I intended
to have any reference to the others.
The Chairman. Referring to the account which you prepared, I
will ask you if you did not submit the summary, and swear to it,
showing the amounts under your statement to be $48,523, and the
amounts under the ^Mitscher account to be $4,601.60, and the amounts
under the Field account to be $1,965.35, making a total of $55,089.20
as being the total amount whicli you three claimed was then due?
Mr. Bentley. My affidavit wtis not intended to have any relation
to tlic otheis.
The Chairman. I am not asking you what it was intended to be;
I am asking you th(> simple question of fact whether it did or not.
Tlun-e it is.
1
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1581
Mr. Bentley. No, sir; mine did not pertain to their accounts. I
am only testifying as to mine. I would have no knowledge of
theirs, of course.
The Chairman. Did you swear to that statement? The summary
that refci-s to is on the same page with a part of your account.
Mr. Bentley (after examining the papers). I was only swearing
to my own account. I could not swear to their accounts. I recog-
nize these [indicating] as items paid by me.
The Chairman. Now, here is what purports to be a photographic
copy, ]VIi\ Bentley, of the original account which you filed, and there
is the photographic copy of the summary about which I have asked
Mr. Bentley. I expect this is an exact copy of that. Now, there
is a mistake here somewhere [examining papers]. I had not intended
in this statement to swear to somebody else's account; I did not do it
knowingly. I was only testifymg to my own. I, however, did not
file this account. Mr. Field filed it. I think my o^^^l account as
rendered there is correct.
The Chairman. You did swear to it?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; I recall going before a notary and attesting
that statement.
The Chairman. Did you have any knowledge as to the correctness
of the account made by ]\lr. Field or Mr. Mitscher ?
Mr. Bentley. No, su*; I did not claim to have— I did not intend
to so claim. I, of course, would not know anything as to the correct-
ness of their account.
The Chairman. Now, by that account it appears that under the
item, ''Expenses caused by the detention and litigation growing out
of attachment against Pah-ko-tah, January, 1903," you charged up
$475, one item of which was attorney fees of $50. To whom was that
paid, if you know ?
^Ii". Bentley. I think Mr. Ben Blakeney, is my recollection.
The Chairman. Under the general item., "Expenses caused by
various indictments of mvself and John Williams," you charged up
$2,825?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What were those indictments?
Mr. Bentley. Those were indictments where I had been indicted —
where it was alleged I had attempted to steal Pah-ko-tah's nniles and
Williap.is's also. We were never tried, but we were back there time
after time for trial, and of course we had to bring a great array of
witnesses ever}^ tune.
The Chairman. Was that a larceny case ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I see you charged up a fee of $500 in that case.
IVIi'. Bentley. I think that was paid to Blakeney. He was my
attorney at that time. I had so many attorneys, however, I woidd
not attempt to state offhand.
The Chairman. Do you know wlio represented you i.\ those
indictments (
Mr. Bentley. I think Blakeney.
The Chairman. How many indictments were there ?
Mr. Bentley. Two, one against me and oi-e against Williams, and
also some other Federal indictments.
1582 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
The Chairman. Under the same general item, embraced withm
the $2,825, I see you charged up $400 as attorney fees for Ben
Blakerey, a whisky indictment, ^^lat was that?
Mr. Bentley. That is where they had given some Indian some
beer, and ore white man that wcs adopted into the tribe.
The Chairman. Were you tried for that?
Mr. Bentley. No; I was not tried, but, of course, I had to be
there every term of court.
The Chairman. Lid you pay $400 for a fee in a case of that kind
when you were n.ot tried ?
Mr. Bentley. My recollection is I paid Blakerey $1,000 in two
of those cases. He may have done other work, too. I was arrested
and bound over. There was so much confusion in those days I
won't attempt to tell all the circumstances, but it grew out of that
matter. I paid probably a couple of thousand dollars there in a year.
The «'h airman. Did you take vouchers for these expenditures?
Mr. Bentley. They were usually paid by check. I know I have
somewhere now— I thi''k— the checks that I paid these items on.
I think I yet have the checks.
The Chairman. Do you remember who the witnesses were in those
two first cases — those larceny cases ?
Mr. Bentley. I do not know who the Government had. They
had an array of Ir.dian Office people
The Chairman. Your witnesses ?
Mr. Bentley. My witnesses were Pah-ko-tah and his family — va-
rious persons. I do not recall.
The Chairman. Do you know who the Government witnesses were ?
Mr. Bentley. It is my recollection the Government witnesses
would have been the Indian agency employees. They were the ones
who were about there at that time.
The Chairman. I see you have an item here, under the same general
head that I have referred to: "Three trips from Mexico, self and wit-
nesses, $600." To what did that relate ?
Mr, Bentley. That is when I would come from Mexico to Shawnee
on account of court, growing out of some of these troubles.
The Chairman. Did you keep a record of all the expenses actually
incurred, or did you just estimate it ?
Mr. Bentley. I kept a memorandum all the time.
The Chairman. You kept a record then?
Mr. Bentley. Yes; I kept some record.
The Chairman. That was an accurate estimate, was it ?
Mr. Bentley. Practically so ; it may have overrun.
The Chairman. If you kept a memorandum, how is it you do not
know whether it was accurate ?
Mr. Bentley. You can not figure — you have half a dozen Indians
coming from Mexico to Shawnee. One borrow^s a quarter, another 50
cents, another $1.50. Maybe you pay 50 cents ajneal for their board
one day, maybe 75 cents the next day — it is kind of irregular. The
regular trip, however, ordinarily is something near the same.
The Chairman. That is what I am asking you now. Did you
keep an account of it or just estimate it?
Mr. Bentley. In that time I ke])t a memorandum.
The Chairman. And it was exactly $600, was it?
Mr. Bentley. That is my recollection.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1583
The Chairman. Where is thnt memorandum?
Mr. Bentley. Those books were destroyed when my home
burned U]).
The Chairman. Wlien did that occur?
Mr. Bentley. My home burned uj) in 1910, I bcheve. These
accounts are largely made uj) from Mr. Plcld's books and papers.
The Chairman. Has he them now?
Mr. Bentley. I think so.
The Chairman. Did he keej) a record of your trips and the expenses
of your witnesses ?
Mr. Bentley. He kept a great deal of it.
The Chairman. What did he have to do with it?
Mr. Bentley. He was attorney for the Kickapoos.
The Chairman. Mr. Blakeney was representing you in that case,
and you paid him out of this fun.d
Mr. Bentley. It should be borne in mind that all this time
Mr. Field wiis attorney for the Kickapoo Indians. I was defending
myself out of their funds. I was working for them. We reported
to him from time to time, and consulted with him. He was here in
Washington most of the time. He could not defend me there locally.
The Chairman. I find another item under that same head, em-
braced within the $2,825, as follows: ''Return of Williams and self
and time of WilHams, $200."
Mr. Bentley. Yes.
The Chairman. Noav, how did you make up that item ?
Mr. Bentley. Well, Wilhams was under bond and lost his time.
The Chairman. How much did you allow him for his time ?
Mr. Bentley. I would not attempt to say now. His expenses — I
think some of those times he came from El Paso, and, my recollection
is, once from Seattle — he was a stone mason and a kind of wandering
fellow. His expenses — something reasonable for his time.
The Chairman. Did you keep a record of that ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And that was exactl}^ $200 ? An even amount,
$200 ?
Mr. Bentley. Well, I suppose it was.
The Chairman. Did you embrace within that $200 the expense for
his railroad fare and return, and yours ?
Mr. Bentley. Those settlements were generally made this way:
We would figure what his carfare was,wdiat his hotel bill had been,
some reasonable pay for the man's time; and naturally you would
not add in any cents to that. It was a little proposition. You
would not figure out 25 cents or 50 cents. You know how you figure
a thing hke that.
The Chairman. But if you kept an accurate account of your car fare
and the expenses it would not happen — it never has happened to me;
it never has happened to any cUent I ever had, that in a transaction
involving $48,523 — it never has happened in all my experience as a
lawj'^er that there was not one item of cents in all that great number
of items, that in every one of the items it was even dollars and no
cents.
^Ir. Bentley. Well, I think tliat can be accounted for. I think
that in n^aking u]) that account, pr'd)ably, there were s'> many items
of stuff t'u^re that if it was $40.15 lie pp-bably never put it on t'lern.
1584 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
The Chairman. Do you know whetJier or not if it was S40 ho made
it $80 ?
Mr. Bentley. No; he would not have done tliat.
Tlie Chairman. How do you know he would not?
Mr. Bentley. I am satisfied lie would not. I know lie would not.
If it were $40.09 he would leave the 9 cents off.
The Chairman. Within that same $2,825 is this item: "Second
return of Indian witnesses, car fare and subsistence (continuance by
Government), $405." Was that account kept tlie same way?
Mr. Bentley. I expect so, and I ap])rehend that was correct. If it
had been $405.05 he would not have put it down. You will find in
m}^ accounts, when I was disbursing officer, if there was a 5-cent
charge I never put it down.
The Chairman. Did you let the department know you were not
keeping your accounts accurately when you were disbursing officer?
Mr. Bentley. If I wanted to take the loss it was my privilege.
The other feUows would charge up a dollar coach hire instead of a
nickel car fare.
The Chairman. I find another item embraced witliin tjiat $2,825,
"Personal expenses, returning self and WiUiams to Oklahoma on
acc(Uint of court, occasioned by these indictments (sec( nd trip),
$200." As a matter of fact, all these items were simply estimated,
were t'5ey not ?
Mr. Bentley. The item as to Williams was estimated, no doubt,
by him, I should judge.
The Chairman. I did not ask by whom they were estimated. I
am trying to find out how you had all these even hundreds of dollars.
Mr. Bentley. As to Williams, I am very certain that it was not a
hairsplitting matter.
The Chairman. It is a hairs})litting matter — 1 do not think that I
ought to argue with you, but it ougi-t to be when you handle other
people's money.
Mr. Bentley. For instance, here is a charge of $500. Here is a
man comes and spends a week or two. Maybe he quits a job and
comes there. He is a witness in some case he has been dragged into.
Probably if his cxpen^.es had been $100 or $115 I might have said —
if it was $160 or $165 I might have said— "Well, you should have
sometliing for your time: i will give you $100." Or 1 might have
given him $200 if he came from Seattle. There would not be any
pennies about it. I tliink, perhaps, that Mr. Field, in making up this
account from the data he has had, may not have ineludcHl the full
amount sometimes where there were cent^. i think ])eihai.s a wrong
to me has been done in that, because I was in good faith.
The Chairman. Did Mr. Field make up this account of yours ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The C'HAiRMAN. I thought you said a while ago you made it.
Mr. Bentley. No; I said it was imxc.e up at Mr. Field's office.
Most of my papeis were there.
The Chairman. I th<m<.':ht you stated twice that yc/U made this
account and swore to this account.
Mr. Bentley. It was macie up v.'ith Mi-. Field's assistance.
The Chairman. I asked you the question in the beginning if these
three accounts — y(mis, Mr. Fielvl's, and Mr. Mitscliei's — wvie imide
up in conjunctit)!! with each other.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1585
Mr. Bentley. I had nothing to do with Mr. Mitscher's account or
Mr. Field's account, because I know nothing about them; but Mr.
Field assisted me, or I him. I went tliere and brought such papers
as I had. I swore in good faith that I believed it was correct, and I
believe so now.
The Chairman. Now, I find another general item: "Trip to
Mexico City because of attempts to poison Mexican authorities
against Indians," aggregating $2,15('.
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The first item under that general head is, "Thirty
days self and three delegates in City of Mexico, $450." What was
that for ?
Mr. Bentley. That v.as expenses in Mexico City. We were there
30 days, and it is an expensive place to stay, especially if you are
there with Indians. Unless you spend money with, the people you
meet there you do not get anywhere.
The Chairman. Did you keep an account of what you spent
there ?
Mr. Bentley. As well as I could.
The Chairman. Did that come out just $450?
Mr. Bentley. I do not suppose it did exactly. Senator, to be per-
fectly frank about it, but it probably was a good deal more than
that.
The Chairman. Why did you not keep it accurately ? What is the
object of ki^oping an account if yon are not going to keep it right ?
Mr. Bentley. To ilhistrate, if you went to Mexico City and you
had $500 when you went there, you would know exactly how much
you had there. You take them to shows — you have to entertain the
Mexicans — and Vvdicn your $500 is gone you knov/ you are out $500.
The Chairman. That is the way these items are made up ?
Mr. Bentley. Not always, but some of them were made in that
way. I know I had to wire for money a time or two.
The Chairman. I expect we have all had the same cxperi'.nce away
from home.
Mr. Bentley. I have the letter now
The Chairman. But that is not relevant or responsive.
Mr. Bentley. I want to be nsponsiv:", Senator.
The Chairman. Now, I find another item, "Railroad fare same"
(that is, for self and three del< gates), $350.
Mr. Bentley. W?U, I think that included a Catholic priest who
went along, a Mexican interpreter — there was a lot besides the
Indians — car fare.
The Chairman. I was just wondering how you spent $350 for your-
self and three dclegat{^s.
Mr. Bentley. Of course, it is a thousand miles down there. It
seems to m\ if I recollect correctly, there was tlie priest — Father
Andr?s — and two Mexicans, thn^e Indians, and myself; and I think
that is correct.
The Chairman. Now, will you tell us why, in making up this
account, you i)ut in for "self and 3 delegates," and why you did not
say "self and 7," or "self and 10," or whatever number it was?
Mr. Bentley. I referred, of course, only to the Indians.
The Chairman. The next item in that same $2,150 is "Expenses
advanced second delegation, Indians, Mexico City, same purpose,
1586 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
j\Ii'. Bentley. Yes.
Tlie Chairman. How did you make up that $400 ?
Mr. Bentley. In that instance I just gave them — I contrii)uted
$400, if I recollect. I know there was one tiip they went where I
just simply gave them $400. We were down there several times.
The Chairman. Now, the next item within that $2,150 is "Trip,
Father Andres, same purpose, $150." Was that the same Catholic
priest whose expenses you embraced within that $350 ?
Mr. Bentley. I think that is another time, liow^ever. I think he
was down there twice, maybe three times.
The Chairman. Then the next item, "Third trip, self and Indians,
30 days, $450."
The expenses that time v.^ere just exactly what they were the other
trip ?
Mr. Bentley. I do not know as to tliat. I know
The Chairman. How is that?
Mr. Bentley. I do not recall as to that.
The Chairman. The next item is "Railroad fare, same, $350."
The railroad fare the third trip was just the same, according to this
statement, as it was the first trip, and it was $350. Now, as a matter
of fact, Mr. Bentltiv, all these items were simply estimates, were they
not?
Mr, Bentley. I think there is some error as to that second item of
$350. This account was made up as nearly as possible correct. I
drew that affidavit, attesting it myself, and it was my intention
The Chairman. I am coming to that in a minute. Now, the next
general item is "Attorney fees and other expenses occasioned by at-
tempted indictments upon an obsolete statute for purpose of pre-
venting Indian council, $555," and the first item under that general
head is "Mexican lawyer, $350." What Mexican lawyer did you
have ?
Mr. Bentley. I would have to think a moment. What date is
that ?
The Chairman. It is not dated; none of these items is dated. I
would like to ask you.
Mr. Bentley. Will you read that again 1
The Chairman. The general head is "Attorney fees and other ex-
penses occasioned by attempted indictments upon an obsolete statute
for purpose of preventing Indian council. Mexican lawyer, $350."
Mr. Bentley. For the moment I do not recall. I know there was.
The Chairman. Why did you not state the name of the lawyer
when you entered that item ?
Mr. Bentley. I will probably be able to.
The Chairman. Why did you not do it when you made your
account ?
Mr. Bentley. I do not know. I do not know why it was not done.
The Chairman. The next item within that $555 is, "Attorney
appearance before grand jury (obsolete statute), $100." Do attor-
neys appear before grand juries down there?
Mr. Bentley. They go to the place where the grand jury is holding
forth. If that is the instance I have in mind- — • —
The Chairman. What can a lawyer do before a grand jury?
Mr. Bentley. Why, if somebody has put up a job against you
and is trying to get a fake indictnient, they can do a good deal by
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1587
going to the judge and telling him about it and seeing that some
some proper witness gets in there.
The Chairman. Going back to that other item, Mr. Bentley, it is
not your fault that the date was not stated on the copy. The date
was February, 1903^the date of that payment to the Mexican
lawyer.
Mr. Bentley. I paid so many Mexican lawyers.
The Chairman. I think it would be a pretty good idea in render-
ing an account to state the names. How did you |)ay that lawyer ?
Mr. Bentley. I always paid everything, so far as possible, l>y
check.
The Chairman. This account was made up from your checks, was
it not?
Mr. Bentley. I think this was made u]i largely from memoranda.
In both accounts— this was taken largely from my other account.
The Chairman. Now, I will ask you about another item there.
Under that same $555, which includes these other two items, there
is an item, "Expenses self and witnesses same, $105," making a
total of $555.
Did you have witnesses before the grand jury? Did you appear
before the grand jury?
Mr. Bentley. I have not yet got in mind — there are so many of
these cases- — which one this was.
The Chairman. You identifv it here as tJie ''obsolete statute"
case.
Mr. Bentley. I know they were trying to indict me somewhere
for alienating the affections of the Indians from, the United States,
under some old statute a hundred years old, and I had to take a lot
of witnesses ; and but for my attorneys interfering I think they would
have indicted me, but I can not remember the circumstances." I will
refresh mv memory
The Chairman. I am still curious to know what an attorney can
do before a grandjury.
Mr. Bentley. He can do a great deal. I will show vou one in-
stance.
The Chairman. If you do not know what service he rendered
Mr. Bentley. I could not state it, but I can cite where thev kept
me from being indicted.
The Chairman. The next general item in your account includes
$1,690, under the head of "Exi^enses incurred in Muzquiz, Mexico,
on account of investigation of Dickson." Who was Dickson?
Mr. Bentley. Charles H. Dickson was a special agent of tne In-
dian Bureau who came to Mexico and had me put in prison, and I
was to great expense while I was there in prison.
The Chairman. The first item under that general head is, "Attor-
nev fees, Mexican lawver, $100."
Mr. Bentley. That was a follow by the name of Castellano.
1 he Chairman. What service did he render ?
Mr. Bentley. He was around there while I was in prison. He
sent some telegrams to the Governor and did all he could. I did not
knew what I was in for, and he was the only man I could find that
C'^uld speak Em^lish. I was not aware that I had violated any
law
Senator Townsend. That was in Mexico ?
1588 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
^li'. Bentley. Yes.
The Chairmax. The next item is, "Subsistence of Indian witnesses,
$200." Who paid that?
Mr. Bentley. I paid anything that was ])aid there, SenaU^r.
The Chairman. How was it paid ?
Mr. Bentley. I suppose it was money advanced to somebod}^ to
get Indian wdtnesses and get them there to the court.
1 he Chairman. And it was exactly $200 ?
Mr. Bentley. I suppose it was. 1 know this is a part of what we
called the ''Dickson raid"— this $1,600.
The Chairman. $1,690.
Mr. Bentley. Whatever the figure is. I know that would be a
very small item for witnesses.
Ihe Chairman. The next item is, ''Railwav of self and witnesses,
$150."
Where did you go that y(U charged that $150 for?
'Mjl. Bentley. What is the heading of that ?
The Chairman. "Expenses incurred in Muz [uiz, Mexico, on ac-
count of investigation of Dickson."
Mr. Bentley. Oh, I will tell you. The railroad fare is connection
with that was pn babh' — 1 expect that included Mr. Field's fare there,
because after Dickson imprisoned me I think I vdred, and Mr. Field
came, and Mr. Bonnett came there — an attorney from Eagle Pass.
The Chairman. But it says for witnesses. They were not witnesses
were they?
Mr. Bentley. No. There was a lawyer by the name of GaUndo
came there.
The Chairman. Now, the next item is, "Coach hire, $40." What
is that?
Mr. Bentley. In connection with the Dickson raid.
The Chairman. This is the Dickson matter.
Mr. Bentley. If that was in connection with the Dickson raid that
must have been the hack fare of the attorneys who came up from
Monterey, I expect, coming in and returning. If I recollect, they
came up there in the night.
The Chairman. And paid $40 for a hack?
Mr. Bentley. For that, and then — I will tell you — no, I know now.
Tliis hack fare item of some $30 or $40 was attorneys that came up
from Monterey. They were very high-toned fellows, and I was im-
prisoned, and they bled me, of course, all they could, and they had a
carriage to visit around the town, and, after the Mexican custom,
to entertain the officials. Instead of the officials entertaining them,
they entertained the officials. Mind you, when that expense was
made I was locked up, and I wired to the bank and had money sent
there three or four times. I think a couple of thousand dollars it took
to get out.
The Chairman. The next item is, "Attorney fees when placed in
prison at instigation of Dickson, and expenses, $100."
Mr. Bentley. I think that is what I paid to Castellano.
The Chairman. You had two attorneys ? ;
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. "Board of self and Indians during such imprison-
ment, $450."
1
KICKAPOO INDIAIsrS. 1589
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; the whole tribe came in there to Muzquiz.
The Chairman. Did 3^011 have to pay your own board while you
were in prison ?
Mr. Bentley. I was even glad to have it sent from somewhere else.
I The Chairman. As a matter of fact, did you pay your board ?
I Mr. Bentley. Why, Senator, their board there is nothing but goat
, meat and cornmeal, and you have to cook it yourself.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, you had your meals sent in ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; and, of course, there was all that array of
Indians on the outside.
The Chairman. The next item is "Coach hire, $50." What is
I that for ?
I Mr. Bentley. That term as it applies to that case is where a bunch
of Mexicans would go off around on the trips they make, and you are
{in jail, and they demand money of you. It all comes high,
, The Chairman. "Expense U. S. Field and pay trip from Washing-
ton to Muzquiz, 30 days, $600." Who is U. S. Field?
Mr. Bentley. That is Walter S. Field. I paid him $600, to include
I his expense, if I recollect.
I Representative Burke. Mr. Chairman, what are you reading from?
I The C'Hairman. His account that he filed when he claimed the
:$41,000.
[ Representative Burke. As I understand it, it appears that that is
imoney he had expended out of the fund ?
; The Chairman. Yes.
I Mr. Bentley. This was all before — that you are inquiring about —
ibefore the $86,000 came into my hands.
The C^hairman. But vou were claiming reimbursement for it, for
the fund ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes.
The Chairman. That it had been paid out of the fund, and that it
had been wrongfully occasioned to the Indians, and they should
therefore be reimbursed for it ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; it was paid out of their money, or out of
mine. Somebody paid it.
The Chairman. Now, the next general item is, "Expenses incurred
in effort to procure the issue of patents to seven Indian allotments as
directed by the act of 1905."
Were those the seven Indians we Lj.,ve lieard so much about?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Were they competent Indians ?
Mr. Bentley. No, indeed; they were not.
The Chairman. You had caused thai act, I believe you said, to be
ipassed ?
i Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
j I want to ask the Senator, please, if I may be permitted at this
kiime to introduce — I do not mean to read it now, but to introduce
lin the record the testimony of each of those seven, taken under
Iprocess in the Mexican court, as to whether they understood what
they were doing or not.
! The Chairman. We will look at it when we get to it. This item
jof expenses incurred in effort to procure the issuance of these patents
35601— PT 13—14 3
1590 KIOKAPOO INDIANS.
amounts to $1,500, and the first item under that is, "Attorney fee
and expenses of Everest to Washmgton, D. C, $500."
Mr. Bentley. That is J. H. Everest. I paid him.
The Chairman. "Chester Howe, fee, $350."
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; you will find a great deal of correspon-
dence by Howe.
The Chairman. That was an attorney fee of $350 to get seven
patents issued when the law directed them to be issued ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. For what services ?
Mr. Bentley. They had hearings at the Interior Department.
Mr. Everest is now a practicing attorney at Oklahoma City. I
think he testified in another hearing here that I did pay him $500.
The Chairman. What did you want with two attorneys in Wash-
ington for that one service?
Mr. Bentley. This covered a considerable time. I think possibly
Howe had been employed first, and we believed Everest was an
attorney of such prestige that he might impress the Secretary of the
Interior so that he would issue those patents. We were in a period
of great distress there. If he could get the patents I could sell those
lands. Those lands dwindled there from $50,000 to almost nothing.
The Chairman. On what theory was that act of 1905 passed if the
Indians were known to be noncompetent ?
Mr. Bentley. Upon the theory, first, that they were people with-
out children, without families, and most of them — their lands were
near Shawnee and valuable — and that by reason of their value it
would make a fund sufficient to enable us to buy land for them in
Mexico.
The Chairman. Did the act recite those facts ? ■
Mr. Bentley. No. |
The Chairman. Did the act recite the reasons for authorizing the
patent?
Mr. Bentley. No.
Representative Burke. The act does recite it.
The Chairman (reading) : i
That the Secretary of the Interior be, and is hereby, authorized and directed to
issue patents in fee to Okemah and his wife Thithequa, Wahnahkethehah, Noten,
Tahpahthea, Shuckequah, and Neconopit, members of the Kickapoo Tribe, heretofore
allotted in the Territory of Oklahoma, for lands so allotted to them, in said Territory,
and all restrictions as to sale, incumbrance, or taxation of said land are hereby removed.
Representative Burke. I will state, Mr. Chairman, in order to com-
plete the record, that the conference report in the record has this
added to that: "Satisfactory evidence having been produced in each
that the persons to whom patents are issued are qualified to take care
of tlieir own interests." That is in the conference report; I thought
it was attached to the act itself.
The Chairman. It may be.
Mr. Thackery. No ; it is not in the act, Senator.
The Chairman. Let us hasten along here all we can. The general
item we are now considering is $1,500, under the heading "Expenses
incurred in effort to procure the issue of patents to seven Indian
allotments as directed by the act of 1905." The next item under the
general heading is, "Railroad fare and hotel, self, in first attempt,
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1591
$200," and the last item is, ''Second attempt, seK and delegation
interested Indians, $450."
Do you know how many you had in that delegation ?
Mr. Bentley. I do not recall.
The Chairman. You had an item there of $650 for personal ex-
penses and expenses of the delegation of Indians, and an item of
$850 for fees paid to attorneys in attempting to get those patents
issued .
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Were the patents issued ?
Mr. Bentley. Those patents were never issued until the Senate
passed a resolution demanding the Secretary of the Interior to report
to the Senate why he had not complied with the law. It was following
that that the}^ were issued, but until the Senate took it up they were
not issued.
The Chairman. You did not understand at the time that act of
1 905 was passed that these Indians were competent ?
Mr. Bentley. I never made any such representation.
The Chairman. Do you know how that item got into the confer-
ence report ?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir; I positively have no knowledge. I at-
tempted to suggest a few moments ago that my representations in
the records will show that I persisted they were wild blanket Indians
at all times. No, sir; I am not responsible for that in any way.
The Chairman. Was Okemah one of those Indians ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Thackery. This man here is one of them.
The Chairman. Now, the next general item is, "Expenses of pro-
curing payment of lease money and other funds over opposition of
department, $1,533."
How much lease money did you procure to be paid ?
Mr. Bentley. What is that ?
The Chairman. "Expenses of procuring payment of lease money
and other funds over opposition of department." That is a general
item, and the total is $1,533. The first item under that is, "Per-
sonal trip to Washington, D. C, to intercede for Indians by request of
Indians (lease money), $275."
Do you know how long you stayed in Washington ?
Mr. Bentley. I expect that was a personal trip up here on account
of that, and probably from Mexico.
The Chairman. Do you know how long you stayed in Washington ?
Mr. Bentley. I would not be able to recall now.
The Chairman. Did you keep a record ?
Mr. Bentley. I probably did.
The Chairman. Did you keep an itemized record of your expenses
when you made these trips ?
Mr. Bentley. I kept a memorandum as nearly correct as I could.
The Chairman. "Expense one Indian, same purpose, $200."
Who was he ?
Mr. Bentley. I tliink that was "Senator" Mine, perhaps.
The Chairman. That was the Senator you have been talking about ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. To refresh your mind about that, you remember
that the other night when we asked you who that Senator was 3^ou
1592 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
stated at first you did not know, but finally concluded it was a
Kickapoo senator ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did 3'^ou the next morning after that hearing make
a statement to Mr. Kellogg about who that Senator was ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, I tliink I did. I won't be sure that I said
anything to anybody, but I may have.
The Chairman. Did you tell him who it was ?
Mr. Bentley. I think I told him that it was the Indian senator —
Johnny Mine.
The Chairman. Did you not name another Senator who was then
iji Congress ?
Mr. Bentley. Oh, I do not think so.
The Chairman. Did you not tell Mr. Kellogg the name of a Senator
who was then in Congress ^
Mr. Bentley. No, sir; I think not. I think that is a misunder-
standing, because I do not know of any such Senator. I am certain
that that is a misunderstanding. I would not want to slander any
Senator
The Chairman. I am not asking about slandering anybody. I am
asking if 3^ou told ]VIi\ O. J. Kellogg the morning after you testified
here — I asked you if you told ]Mr. Kellogg the next morning when he
inquired of you about it the name of a Member of Congress who was
then in the Senate ?
^h\ Bentley. I do not think I did.
The Chairman. Don't you know whether you did or not? How
does it happen you are uncertain about it now ?
]\Ir. Bentley. Because I do not remember having that character of
conversation. I think I may have said to Mi\ Kellogg that the mat-
ter— when that matter was mentioned, that for the moment I did not
recall who it was. I think perhaps that was it; but I remember well
now that I had no reference to any actual Senator.
The Chairman, But that is not responsive to my question. I asked
you the question
jVIr. Bentley. Not intentionally.
The Chairman (continuing) . If you told him that, it did have ref-
erence to an actual Senator.
;Mr. Bentley. No, sir; I say, positively, I did not. I did not say
anything to suggest it. If he got any such impression, it was an
inference.
The Chairman. Was Mine known around here as the "senator"?
Mr. Bentley. Oh, he was known about the National Hotel. Some-
times he would be a little full — ■ —
The Chairman. Who knew him and called him the "senator" ?
Mr. Bentley. Why, he would go around and call himself "sen-
ator." It was a joke down there about the Kickapoo "senator."
The Chairman. Do you know whether Mr. Field called him
"senator" or not?
Mr. Bentley. No. I recall, however, that Mr. Northrup used to
call him senator. I think Mrs. Grey will recall she was here in that
time. I think there are a good many in Washington who know.
John was a pretty dignified fellow, and had brains enough, I beheve,
to have been a senator.
The Chairman. That is not in controversy.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 159S
Mr. Bentley. What I mean is — I do not say it slurringlj'-.
The Chairman. I do not care what you say it for.
Mr. Bentley. Pardon me; I did not intend to
The Chairman. Did you see a telegram purporting to have been
sent from Douglas, Ariz., May 5, 1908, to George Graham by W. S.
Field i
Mr. Bentley. I do not recaU at this time whether I have or not.
The Chairman (reading):
Senator's suggestion such that better send fifteen; council here Friday.
Mr. Bentley. It seems to me I have some such recollection of
hearing about this telegram before.
The Chairman. What Senator is referred to there?
Mr. Bentley. Well, from Mr. Field ?
The Chairman. Yes; do you say you have some recollection of
that telegram?
Mr. Bentley. I have some recollection of hearing about this tele-
gram somewhere.
The Chairman. Did you understand what Senator suggested
''better send 15; council here Friday" ?
Mr. Bentley, It is my recollection now that Senator Teller had
wired Mr. Field, or written him, that there was an effort being made
to disrupt the purpose, and it is my impression now that that is who
Mr. Field probably had reference to, but he may have had reference
to some other Senator. I do not know.
The Chairman. Who is Mr. George Graham?
Mr. Bentley. George Graham is an Indian trader — a business man
of Oklahoma.
The Chairman. What had he to do with it ?
Mr. Bentley. He is a man who speaks the Kickapoo language
f airh^ well, and he is a very capable man and has great influence vnih.
the Kickapoo Indians. He has traded wdth them and been among
them a good many years.
The Chairman. Now, going back to the account again for a little
wliile, under that general head of $1,533 that we have referred to and
the item of "Personal trip to Washington, D. C, to intercede for
IncUans by request of Indians (lease mone}^), $275," and "Expense
one Indian same purpose, S200," the next item is "Expense of self
to Washington and return, on withheld annuities, $200."
Mr. Bentley. Yes; there was $211 each due certain Kickapoos,
which the}' were very eager to get. I think I came here two or three
times on that before we succeeded in getting it paid. The chsposition
of the Indian Bureau was to hold it up and not pay it at all. After
a good deal of fighting — sometimes we just had to come to get the
interest paid, and that was paid once a year — finally we succeeded
in getting all that paid.
The Chairman. How much did you succeed in getting all told ?
Mr. Bentley. I think about $16,000 went to the Indians in Mexico.
I won't be certain. I never had occasion to keep any account of it.
It was paid through a national bank down there.
The Chairman. The next item is, "Expenses, two trips to Eagle
Pass, same, $108." Then there is another item, "Expenses, 70
Indians, Muzquiz to Eagle Pass, and return (false notice), $700."
What was that ?
1594 KIOKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Bentley. A notice was sent that these checks had been for-
warded to the bank on which the Indians were to receive their money,
and they came out to receive this payment and it did not come, and
practically the whole tribe came out, and one naturally borrowed from
the other, and they came out to clothe themselves and fix up. There
was a carload.
The Chairman. "Special attorney in Washington on account of
opposition to this payment (Chester Howe), SI 50."
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; I paid him that in cash. The books, if
they can be found, will show the cash item paid, $150.
The Chairman. The next general item is, "Expenses on account
of Outcelt and the crimes. Chapman raid, $3,855."
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir. I think I overlooked a lot of items. That
ought to have been a good deal more. I have taken an affidavit of
two or three persons who received and expended money from me for
the Indians. I have one of those in my pocket
The Chairman. How much ought it to be ?
Mr. Bentley. I think it ought to be $5,000 at least.
The Chairman. Now, it happens that all of these are even dollars,
excepting one item. The first item is $170; the next, $600; the
next, $225; the next, $350; the next, $1,500; the next, $60; the
next, $400; the next, $300; and the next, $250.
Mr. Bentley. I can explain why this item is exactly $1,500,
because I wired and received the money and paid it out.
The Chairman. That is for "Subsistence of Indians and coach
hire during raid."
Mr. Bentley. That is the amount of money I got, and that is
what I sent out.
The Chairman. That just happened to be exactly $1,500?
Mr. Bentley. It came from the bank; yes, sir. I am certain
that is exactly what I received.
The Chairman. "Pay of two white men helpers to protect Indians,
$400."
Mr. Bentley. I have the affidavit here of one of them.
The Chairman. Who were they ?
Mr. Bentley. Mr. Erney and John W. Gostin. They say they
made 10 round trips from Muzquiz to Eagle Pass, and my estimate
is not half what they paid out.
The Chairman. This is an estimate?
Mr. Bentley. That was this account.
The Chairman. You say, "Your estimate." That is what I
have been asking you all through your account.
Mr. Bentley. My account showed the amount that is there,
but I believed I had advanced more than was there, and for that
reason Gostin's affidavit was taken, who spent that money, and he
says that altogether they spent probably twice that amount.
This happened: Our own Indians were attempting to get out of
Mexico, to get awa}^ from Outcelt. They came down to the railroad,
some 30 miles, and there they were arrested and railroaded back to
Muzquiz. Their horses and animals were left there to be paid for,
and a great expense grew out of that. Gostiu paid that, and that
does not show ui this account.
The Chairman. Yes; this says, "Their subsistence, car fare,
telegrams, and other incidental expenses, $300." There was
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1595
paid these two white men iielpers and $300 lor subsistence and
other expenses to them, making $700 paid to them according to this
accomit.
Mr. Bentley. I think I paid them more.
The Chairman. Wliat makes you think so ?
Mr. Bentley. Because that was so.
The Chairman. Wliy did you not keep it accurately?
Mr. Bentley. In fact, I coukl only keep it as it was reported to
me. I could not go into Mexico, mind you.
The Chairman. You got this item Irom those men, did you not '?
Mr. Bentley. I got it from such memoranda as I kept at the
time.
The Chairman. You coidd have kept a memorandum while you
were out of Mexico just as well as while you were in Mexico ?
Mr. Bentley. That is true; but a great many times I failed to
charge things I should have charged, paid with my money.
The Chairman. "Expenses to Mon^terey and Saltillo with Indian
delegation and appeal to Government for protection, $250."
Was that an estimated or actual expense?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir; it cost me a little more than $250.
The Chairman. How much more ?
Mr. Bentley. Probably $150 more.
The Chairman. Wliy did you not put that in ?
Ml'. Bentley. In making up these accounts I find from memory
frequently that I did not have a memorandum of all the things.
Things occurred to me that I did not have any memorandum of.
The Chairman. Now, the next general head is, "Expense affecting
false testimony offered by Good as to alleged forged indorsem.ents of
Treasury warrants." That aggregates $3,510. The first item is^
"Witnesses and subsistence, $35." The next, "Attorney fees before-
grand jury Del Rio and expenses self and witnesses attending before
grand jury, $575."
How much of that was attorneys' fees ?
Mr. Bentley. I won't attempt to say how much of it was.
The Chairman. Who was that attorney?
Mr. Bentley. I think there were two of them — Judge Douglass
and Joe Jones, of Del Rio, Tex. I would like to explain about that
attempt to indict me.
The Chairman. I am not asking about that.
Senator Townsend. You have testified on the subject, have you
not, Mi-. Bentley?
Mr. Bentley. As to this
Senator Townsend. As to these thing'-;?
Mr. Bentley. I do not recall ever having testified in this mamer.
I have testified in a general way.
Senator Townsend. I did not want to interrupt the Sei\ator, but
what I wanted to get at is, have you gone over this ground before the
whole connnittoe recently in the Senate?
Mr. Bentley. Xo; not item by item; (»idy irs a general v/ay.
The CHAIR^rAN. What I am a'^king about now is the account. I
am taking it for granted that the statement liere is correct, and I am
looking now into the items of this account.
Mr. Bentley. The attempt to indict me at Rel Rio is probably —
that is a correct estimate of the expense.
1596 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
The Chairman. You say it is ]>rol)ably correct?
Ml'. Bentley. I think it is probably an accurate estimate.
The Chairman. You say, "estimate'' again.
]VIi\ Bentley. What I mean by that is this: These items show in
various phices in my accounts. And you can not, in making up this
account — the expense on account of a grand jury or some phice in
court may have been from two or three sources, two or three
memoranda.
The Chairman. The next item is, "My imprisonment at the in-
stance of the United States attorney and the imprisonment of
Indians, Muzquiz, Mexico, attorney fees to Mexican attorneys,
SI ,700."
How much of that $1,700 was fees and how much expenses con-
nected with your imprisonment?
Mr. Bentley. My recollection is this, that one of the attorneys —
no; I am mistakeii. I tliought that was the instance where they
attached the Kickapoo lands for attorney fees, but it is not. The
attorney lees in that instance — one of them wiis S500, paid to Mi'
Field. He came theie during fA\o time I was in prison. I could
not say offhand
The Chairman. What I want t,o know is why that item is in there
that way. Was that $1,700 all fees?
Mr. Bentley. Fees and expenses, probably.
The Chairman. Why were the expenses and fees run together as
on^, item? You do not generally do that.
Mr. Bentley. There was so much of that stuff you would want to
boil it down as much as you could.
Now, there was a lot of attorneys mixed up in this. I paid the
expense of the vice consul, or the American consul, who came there.
There was a half dozen attorm^ys came there. There was some ex-
penses connected with that that I really would not want to te-tify
to that was real attorneys' fees.
The Chairman. Why wouldn't you?
Mr. Bentley. I was there in prison, and I wanted to get out
The Chairman. Nobody blames you for that.
Mr. Bentley. And when you are in Mexico you have to do as the
Mexicans do to get out. That item is in getting away, or connected
with that. Persons were paid only those sums that were neces^-aiy
for my defense, to save my life, and get out of there.
The Chairman. I know, but if you expect the Government to
pay it to you you ought to show the Government to whom it was ])aid.
Mr. Bentley. Senator, this account was not made up along the
lina of attempting to show every cent. This account figured up to
;-ome $50,000, and there was not
The Chairman. The next item is, "Expense Mexican officials to
investigate detenticm, $250."
Mr. Bentley. Well, I think that was the item that was paid in
getting certain — will yon read that again, please?
The Chairman. ''Expense, Mexican officials to investigate deten-
tion." I would understand it to be that you paid the expense of
some Mexican officials to investigate your detention.
Mr. Bentley. I think that item relates to the expense of endeavor-
ing to — I paid one Sanchez to endeavor to decipher the telegrams
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1697
that were in cipher, trying to locate who got the money, so I could
get that before President Diaz and get them deposed.
The Chaieman. Did you succeed in getting them deposed ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; the governor went out, and a judge, too.
The Chairman. So part of this money was used that way?
Mr. Bentley. Yes.
The Chairman. In getting you out of jail?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. "Police service, spies, $125."
I^Ir. Bentley. That was police service guarding the camp against
the bunch that came there and later robbed them.
The Chairman. '^\merican attorney from Washington, D. C, fees,
expenses, etc., 40 days' time, S650."
Who was he ?
Mr. Bentley. ^Ir. Field.
The Chairman. Why did you not put his name in there?
Mr. Bentley. I don't know why.
The Chairman. You designate hmi as "American attorney." It
would have been simpler and easier to say ''W. S. Field, attorney."
What was your object?
Mr. Bentley. I am certam I had no thought of not telling who the
attorney was. ''American attorney" is probablv whv it was not
given as "W. S. Field"
The Chairman. Mr. Field prepared this himself, did he not ?
Mr. Bentley. I furnished him =
The Chairman. You furnished him the memoranda, and the made
up the statement, and in making the statement he omitted his own
name and put it "American attorney." Do you know what his
motive was in doing that ?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir; I do not; unless it may have been so that
the account would show who was an American attorney or Mexican.
The Chairman. You wiU notice, that with the exception of the
names of Howe and Everest, the names of attorneys do not appear in
the account. It is "Mexican attorney" or "Anierican attorney."
"W. S. Field" would have identified hun as not being a Mexican
attorney.
Mr. Bentley. Well, I gave him three checks of S200 eacli.
The Chairman. What was that other 850 for?
Mr. Bentley. Sir?
The Chairman. You say you gave hun three cheeks of S200 each ?
Mr. Bentley. I gave hini three checks of $200 each that I recall.
The Chairman. And you charged up $650.
Mr. Bentley. I think probably the other was some expense about
Muzcjuiz that was ])aid in cash.
The Chairman. "Wife and son to Mexico to assist, $175." That
was your wife and son ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The next general item is "Expenses on account
of court, personal civil action brought at department's suggestion,"
aggregating $1,135.
What was that action ?
Mr. Bentley. I rather think probably that referred to the trial
in Oklahoma, at Tecumseh, probably — the Kah-kah-to-the-quah
case, probably. I think that was more, though.
1598 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Senator Lane. When was that?
Mr. Bentley. 1910, 1 thmk.
The Chairman. You say that suit was brought at the suggestion
of the department ?
Mr, Bentley. Yes, sir; if it is the Kah-kah-to-the-quah case.
The Chairman. Was not that the case you stated the other day
the department fought you in ?
Mr. Bentley. No, I think not. I will have to explain that.
There had been appointed first and last in these Kickapoo cases three
special assistant attorney generals of the United States. First was
J. Henry Shepherd, then Ormsby McHarg, and last was Francis
Kearful. One of those suits was brought at the instigation or advice
of the Assistant Attorney General, and we fought it desperately, I
employed the best attorneys I could find. The trial lasted several
days. I brought witnesses from Mexico and everywhere. I paid
that boy right there — Murdoch — S8.60, if I recollect correctly.
The CiiiViRMAN. That does not go very far.
Ml'. Bentley. I think he brought a couple of witnesses in there.
The Chairman. Let us go on \\-ith this next it^m: "Oklahom'a
witnesses, depositions, etc., $350."
Wliat amount of that was for witnesses, and what amount for
depositions ?
Ml'. Bentley. I would not attemi^t offhand to say.
Tlie Chairman. Was that just estimated, or was that an accurate
statement of an amount paid out ?
Mr. Bentley. My best judgment is that that schedule is actual
amounts i>ai(l out.
The Chairman. And it happened to be just $350 ?
Mr. Bentley. It might have been $350.15, and it probably was
not put on there. I do not know.
The Chairman, Now, the next item is, "Attorneys' fees, $500."
Who was that attorney ?
Mr, Bentley. Is it attorney fee or fees ?
The Chairman. '^Utornoys' fees, $500."
Ml'. Bentley. If this is the case I have in mind — of course, I am
only testifyinj': from my best recollection here at this time, but there
were several attorneys. This ca':e J. H. Wood took part in, and a
man by the name of Pendleton, a man by the name of John H. Wall,
of Shawnee, and it seems to mo there was another one. It was a very
stubbornly contested ca-^e, if that is the one. There are so many of
these things.
The Chairman. Anticipating i\ little, I see that in a subsequent item,
to which I will call your attentiosi directly, you have specifically named
all those attorneys — Everest, Green, Wall, Pendleton, and Blakeney — in
an item amounting to several hundi'cd dollars, in a civil suit o.gainst the
community. Did you also have them emi^loyed in this other case ?
Mr. Bentley. I will tell you^ — yes, there were several of those
suits. There was a strange kind of suit brought that cost me a
lot of money. It was claimed by somebody on the part of the
officials that when T, as trustee, deposited the money I had drawn
out of the treasury, as I did, that belonged to a minor that I became
liable to the court or Okemah, and therefore would have to account.
And 1 think I was sued for $30,000.
The Chairman. What official ?
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1599
Mr. Bentley. It might have been Mr. Thackery. I think he
advised or encouraged the suit. I was told he did.
The Chairman. Now, you are testifjdng. You say, "It luight
have been" ?
Mr. Bentley. I have other people's word, of course, for that. I
am testifying as near as I can to what I know about it.
The Chairman. You can not teU me, then, to whom that attorney
fee was paid unless you have already told me ?
Mr. Bentley. I could not \\ithout reflection, or Avithout knowing
the case.
The Chairman. In that connection, in making up this account, why
did you not state what case that was ? That would not identify the
case to anybody in the world but you or somebody else that knew the
history of it, and I want to ask why you did not identify the case?
]\Ii'. Bentley. I really am unable to give any reason at this time
for not being any more definite. I suppose it was made briefly.
The Chairman. "Traveling expenses to and from Mexico taking
depositions, $250; court costs, $35."
^Ir. Bentley. That was depositions taken at Monclova. There
is a great big stack of them that high [indicating].
The Chairman. What case was it ?
!Mr. Bentley. Numerous cases. They were taking depositions
several times there. The expense of it Mr. Field kept himself. He
kept a memorandum of the expense.
The Chairman. The next general head embraces several items
aggregating $1,615, "Expenses of my escape from Mexico, occasioned
by prosecution of Outcelt ^^dth expense of defending Indians arrested
and making deeds." The fu'st item under that head is, " Paid chattels,
coach, trainmen, police, etc., $250."
That was an estimate, I take it ?
j^.Ii-. Bentley. No, sir: that was not an estimate. I recall the
items; that is, I could sit down and tell you now. Those things are
very vivid in my mind. Of course I prepared a memorandum of my
expenses in getting away from there. I think I can furnish it. I
think I have it yet. I am very certain that among my papers here
is a complete diary of that getaway, who I paid, and what I paid.
The Chairman. " Expense of taking 70 Indians to border to make
deeds, $1,000."
'Sh. Bentley. Yes, I thmk that is correct. You see, the American
consul was forbidden, through the efforts of the Indian Ofhcc, as the
report on affairs of the Mexican Kiekapoo Indians ^^dll show — they
were forbidden to take acknowledgments for me. Otherwise there
would have been no necessity for any Indian coming to the border.
The Chairman. How far is it to the border?
Mr. Bentley. Oh, the expense in and out of Mexico — the car
fare — I think, is about $10, is my recoUection. I won't be sure. It
is 150 miles.
The Chairman. Is that gold or Mexican ?
Mr. Bentley. That would be — a first-class ticket, if I recollect, in
and out of there is $9.
The Chairman. Is that gold or Mexican ?
Mr. Bentley. That would be gold. It is about $4.50 gold first
class, is my recoUection about it.
1600 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
The Chairman. "Expenses occasioned by arrest of Pah-ko-tah,
Jim Deer, Okemah, and others, first time, S150." That was expenses
you paid out for them ?
Mr. Bentley. For them. I sent an attorney there.
The Chairman. How much of that was attorneys' fees ?
Mr. Bentley. I think $100.
The Chairman. What was the other ?
Mr. Bentley. $50 was money given him to give to the Indians
who were in prison.
The Chairman. Who was that attorney ?
Mr. Bentley. Judge Douglas, of Eagle Pass, Tex., now district
judge of that district.
The Chairman. The next item is ' 'Attorney fee same and expenses,
$90." Evidently the attorney fee was not embraced in that $150.
Can you tell us what the $150 was ?
Mr. Bentley. I may have sent them $150 instead of $50. As I
told you, I am only testifying from my best recollection. I know I
sent him money, and I sent the very ablest attorney.
The Chairman. You did not pay Mm but $90 for fee and expenses,
according to this statement.
Mr. Bentley. Perhaps that is correct, but whatever expense I
have shown there I am very certain is correct.
The Chairman. I am not asking you general questions. ''Arrest
Okemah and party at Sabinas, $125." What was that?
Mr. Bentley. Okemah and a party of some 14 or 15 others were ar-
rested vA, Sabinas and taken back to Muzquiz. The railroad had washed
out, and they had to make a ])art of the trip on foot through the mud.
Some children and women v.^ere with them. I gave Mr. Erney, my
recollection is, $100, and he followed them all the way around and
bought them ])rovisions, and got such transportation as he could
arrange for for the women. The mud was knee-deep, I was told.
The Chairman. You say you recollect giving him $100 ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What was the other paid for?
Mr. Bentley. I recollect giving him $100 for the use of the
Indians. As to the other $25 I am unable to say — expenses, probably.
The Chairman. The next general item amounts in all to $2,960,
"Exjjenses before grand juries at Eagle Pass, Texas, in indictment of
Grimes et al." The first item under that is, ''Carfare and subsistence
thirty Indians forty-two days first grand jury, first hearing, $1,220."
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The next item is, ''Eight Indians returning,
Muzquiz, $50. Pay eight witnesses, $40."
What became of those other 22 Indians ?
Mr. Bentley. They went on around. They did not go back to
Muzquiz; they went on to Marfa, if I recollect, and there they were
freighted down the Rio Grande 90 miles to rejoin the others in the
desert. We were there three times before that grand jury before we
succeeded in getting indictments. Very unfortunately, once the
grand jurv did not convene when it was set to, ar,d we had to wait
there, and expenses were very heavy.
The Chairman. "First grarid jury, second hearing, witness ex-
penses from Shawnee, $250." How mnny witnesses did you take
aowu there, Mr. Bentley?
I
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1601
Mr. Bentley. Oh, 1 think, including the iiiter})reter, there were
seven or eight of them, is my recollection. Of course, we probably
included the pay of the interpreter, but I won't be sure.
The Chairman. "Expenses, second grand jury, witnesses' travel
and expenses, $800."
Mr. Bentley, Yes; I think that is correct.
The Chairman. "Special attorney before grand jury, -$600."
Who was that ?
Mr. Bentley. Mr. Field.
The Chairman. Why did he not put his name in there ^
Mr. Bentley. I do not know; I have no explanation to offer,
unless — let me see. That might have been Joe Jones. I paid a
Del Rio attorney $500 — one Joseph Jones. But I think Mr. Field
came there from Washington that second time and that is his ex-
penses and his fee.
The Chairman. The next aggregates $16,150, and relates to
"Expense of removal of entire tril)e from Muzquiz, Mexico, to
Sonora, Mexico, beginning May 6, at Muzquiz, Coahuila, and ter-
minating November 7, 1909, at Douglas, Ariz." The first item is,
"Salary and expenses Gostin, including guides at various places,
$1,150.'"
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How much salary did you pay Mr. Gostin ?
Mr. Bentley. I would not be able, without consulting some memo-
randa I have, to tell you just what I paid him in salary during that
time.
The Chairman. Do you know how many guides he had ?
Mr. Bentley*. The customs officer at Presidio, Tex., furnished
fuides. The Indians were lost there three weeks in the desert, and
sent that man money, and he sent out couriers into the desert hunt-
ing the Indians. They came very near perishing.
The Chairman. How much money did you send him?
Mr. Bentley. To the customs officer ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Bentley. I think $50 one time, and some more another time
that I sent to him. Some bills came there later that Gostin had made
in making arrangements to carry water from one water hole to
another.
The Chairman. The next item is, "Permission to pass through
Mexican properties, $275." Did you have to pay that?
Mr. Bentley. Mr. Gostin says that away exceeded that. He says
the money I furnished him to pay that^ — that I must have misunder-
stood his report, because it was much more. You see, we had several
hundred head of stock, and we had to pay for carrying water and
other things.
The Chairman. How much was it?
Mr. Bentley. He says it is in excess of $500 that we paid.
The Chairman. Did he not tell you how much it was? He just
said it was more than $500 ?
^Ir. Bentley. He says he paid more than that.
The Chairman. "Self two trips into interior to supply funds,
$300." Did it cost you that ?
Mr. Bentley. Indeed it did. One of those trips cost me more than
that — more than $150. There was about two weeks that I was
1602 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
where the Orient Railway crosses the Concho River. The Indians
were supposed to be in the desert. They crossed 50 miles below.
They might have crossed the night they arrived at the river, but
they foolishly camped on the wi'ong side, and the river came up
during the night and they could not get across. I had to make
some expensive hack trips to finally get them located, and I came
near being killed in the meantime.
The Chairman. "Sending 20 Indian witnesses from grand jury to
Presidio, S600." Where was that? Presidio, Cal.?
Mr. Bentley. No; Texas. We had them at Eagle Pass, these wit-
nesses, until the grand jury would convene. Then we had to send
them to Spofford Junction, then around to Marfa, then 90 miles by
hack to the river; then we held them there a long time. I had to
wu-e and get an interpreter to come from Shawnee. We had a lot of
expense on account of that.
The Chairman. The next item is "Subsistence, $7,825."
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman, Did you keep accounts of that?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; I kept an account of the money I sent
there for that purpose. Of course, I could not keep any account any
other way.
The Chairman. Have you that account now that you kept?
Mr. Bentley. I think I can furnish it.
The Chairman. I wish you would let me see it.
Mr. Bentley. I think it is among my papers.
The Chairman. How many Indians were there in that group ?
Mr. Bentley. About 200.
The Chairman. ''Loss of 300 horses dead from heat and lack of
water on this trip, $6,000."
Mr. Bentley. Of course, that is what is reported to me.
The Chairman. How did you figure that the Government should
ay that ? You did not pay for those horses ?
Mr. Bentley. No; I am not asking the Government to pay me
that. I am asking that money to be reimbursed to the Indians,
But, if the Indians were, through the connivance of some Federal
officials, compelled to give up their home and make this trip of a
thousand miles through a desert country, and this was brought about
and made necessary by the bad faith on the part of the Government
officials and the United States was indirectly responsible for the loss
of those horses, I think it ought to pay for them. Of course, I am
only giving my best judgment as to that. I would not claim that as
anything paid by me.
The Chairman. Would not less than half that amount have taken
them around by rail ?
Mr. Bentley. Oh, yes ; but here was aU their horses — no ; it would
not; I do not think so; and you could not have got them to go that
way. They would not leave their stuff behind. We had one carload
that we did ship around, and that cost $475, so I think we did probably
the only thing.
The Chairman. The next is, "Pay of expenses incurred in trial of
civil cases in the district court, Pottawatomie County, Okla., includ-
ing the pay of Indian witnesses from Mexico, attorn«^ys fees, and other
incidental expenses, $2,400."
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1603
Have you an itemized statement of that ?
Mr. Bentley. I think I can fnrnisli an itemized account of that
trial and everything connected with that.
The Chairman. "Expenses in Federal cases, civil suits in Okla-
homa for the purpose of protecting title. Clerks fees filing 27 cases,
$405."
That is the filing fees, is it ?
Mr. Bentley. $300 of that was paid to J. H. Everest for preparing
and filing the answers, as I recall, and $105 was the clerks' fees in
filing those suits. Those items were paid by check.
The Chairman. The next item is, "Clerks' fees, deposited as de-
fendant, 43 actions, $215."
Mr. Bentley. That is my recollection; that is correct.
The Chairman. There are several small items I am not going to
ask you about, but there is a large item embraced within that general
head: "Expenses of attorneys and interpreters and Bentley taking
depositions Eagle Pass, Muzquiz, and Mondova in 23 cases, $1,250."
Is that an accurate statement, or is it estimated ?
Mr. Bentley. I think it is an accurate statement, and I am quite
certain that I can furnish the memoranda upon which that is based.
The Chairman. "Attornevs fee in local courts, Oklahoma, Everest,
$300."
Mr. Bentley. The chances are that there was a mistake. I want
to be perfectly frank. That might be a mistake. I might have
charged that item twice. If I have, I want to correct it.
The Chairman. Then that was embraced within the $1,250?
Mr. Bentley. I am quite certain that is an error, but it may not
be. If it is I want to correct it.
The Chairman. "J. 11. Woods, $150."
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. "W. S. Pendleton, $450."
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. "J. H. Wall, $250."
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. ''W. W. Ives, court costs, $500."
Mr. Bentley. That is correct.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, that item of court costs is
merely estimated, is it not?
Mr. Bentley. No; Mr. Ives furnished me a memorandum of the
sums that he — -Indian witnesses would come to Shawnee, Okla., and
would have to be fed. Maybe they would arrive in my absence, and
Ives took care of them in my absence, and he kept account of that.
The Chairman. Did it amount to exactly $500 ?
Mr. Bentley. Well, it either amounted to that or more than that.
It might have been a few cents over. If it was, the way this account
was made up it would not have been put on.
The Chairman. Now, when you first made out this account you
first put that July, 1907, did you not, and afterwards revised your
account so as to sliow 1908 ?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir. After this account was rendered, or made
uj), or I should say before it was brought before the conference com-
mittee, it was discovered that an error had been made in it as to a date,
and Mr. Field corrected that; I had nothing to do with that.
1604 KIOKAPOO INDIANS.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, was not that correction made
because Mr, Burke, who was on the conference committee, insisted
that the act of 1908 settled all that ?
Mr. Bentley. That is true, but on the other hand, I think the
correction was properly made. I think it was a mistake as to the
date. I am quite certain that while I had nothing to do with making
the change in the paper, I think Mr. Field was justified. I think it
was in error before, and I think it is correct now.
The Chairman. It became necessary to change a number of the
other dates in the same connection, did it not ?
Mr. Bentley. I do not know as to that. I only recall the one.
Whatever changes there may be, I had nothing to do with.
The Chairman. Why did you have four attorneys in those cases?
What was the idea of that ?
Mr. Bentley. This last case I
The Chairman. The case I have just been asking about; the
Federal cases where 27 cases were filed. It seems there were 43
actions in which Indians were defendants.
Mr. Bentley. Why, I suppose — some were in one county and
some were in another — for various reasons different attorneys were
employed.
Ihe Chairman. I see you have embraced in this statement an
item, ''Pay of incidental expenses, travelmg expenses self and attor-
neys during committee investigation, $500.''
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; that is true.
The Chairman. You traveled \\dth the committee, did you not?
Mr. Bentley. I was with the committee during its entire trip;
yes, sir.
Ihe Chairman. You did not pay any railroad fare?
Mr. Bentley. No; no railroad fare was paid by me.
The Chairman. "Expenses incurred in spring of 1909, trip self
and Field to Mexico on account of Mark Goode and others together
with attorneys' fees (civil suits against community).''
The items under that are: "Cost of trip, $400; attorney fees, same,
Everest, $150; Green, $25; Wall, $100; Pendelton, $150; Blakeney,
$100; total, $925."
What did you want with so many lawyers there?
Mr. Bentley. Well; I will tell you. As I recall it, the fee of
Blakeney was where this suit liad been brought against me as trustee
in behalf of the creditors of certain mmors, and they had it tied up.
I had $20,100 of this community fund, and had deposited it in Wash-
ington and Shawnee, and a part of that fund wtis attached, and my
recollection is now I paid Blakeney $150 to go to Chandler, and argue
that case. Blakeney's theory prevailed, and I got the money out of
that.
The Chairman. I concede that the fee was probably reasonable
in view of tliat statement, but what I asked was why you had so
many attorneys. There were four attorneys there in that connec-
tion.
Mr. Bentley. They were not always employed in tlie same case,
Senator. There were so many of these easels. One in particular —
Blakeney is a very able attorney, and tlie amounts involved there —
I tliought Jie could })reseut it better than Everest or some of the others.
He succeeded anyway in getting the money loose.
1
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1605
The Chairman. Why did you not let Blakeney attend to all tJie
cases ?
Mr. Bentley. Well, it is a peculiar relation. Ben Blakeney was
attorney for the men who robbed the Kickapoos, and had been my
attorney, yet when a difficult point is to be argued in court and a fee
is contingent he is the best lawyer in Oklahoma, and notwitlistanding
he had been unfaithful to me, I did employ him in certain cases where
I believed it required that cJiaracter of ability. Take the whole array
of attorneys, however — Everest, Goode, Wall, and Pendelton — I
believe there is no better in the State, I mean as to their standing
as men.
The Chairman. The last general item is, "Expenses caused by
active opposition prior to San Bernardino Council. Extra trip, Doug-
las, Al-iz., to Shawnee and return, witliinterpreter, $175. Livery,$25."
What is that for ?
^'Ir. Bentley. The livery charge was when Mark Goode and an
agent of the department came to Douglas, Ariz., and took a police-
man in full gear from Douglas into the interior, some 40 or 50 miles,
to ajiparently awe the Indians with this man in the costume of an
officer. W_ien I learned that I provided Gostin with a suitable rig
and sent him in there to see that nc^ advantage was taken of the
Indians. Notwithstanding that, he did kidnap and take away some
of the weaker ones; I think, some 25 or 50. That was one of the
expenses.
The Chairman. "Clerk to Muzquiz and return, $50." What was
that ?
Mr. Bentley. That was Mr. Erney, I think, who Avas sent down
there for something. I do not recall thai.
The Chairman. From where ?
Mr. Bentley. Probably from here.
The Chairman. He could not go to Muzquiz and back for $50,
could he ?
Mr. Bentley. Well, then, it must have been
The Chairman. You do .not know, do you ?
Mr. Bentley. I do not recall at tliis time just what the clerk men-
tioi^ed was.
The Chairman. "Extra support Indians, $275." What was that?
Mr. Bentley. If I could refresh my memory — that was probably
some necessary expense that I do not at this time recall.
The Chairman. "Defense in Wah-nah-ke-tha case, $565." What
was that for?
Mr. Bentley. There came a time in the Wah-nah-ke-tha case
when the attorneys who had a contract with him to receive a fee of
a part of his land had no funds. Depositions had to be gotten within
a specified time or the old man would lose his case. Notwithstanding
his attorneys were bitter er:emies of mine, rather than that he should
lose his case on their appeal, I furnished the money to get these depo-
sitions. In the account I have, approved by their attorney, I have
his receipt for $565 — or his statement, at least. That was actual
money.
The Chairman. You have verified these several items about which
I have asked you as a just, correct, and true statement of the expenses
incurred by you, etc. ?
35601— PT 13—14 4
1606 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Bentley. To the best of my knowledge; yes, sir. I believed
then, and do now, that they aie true, except that possibly there may
be an error of I3C0. If there is, I should be very frank to admit it.
The Chairman. You looked over this affidavit on the front page a
while ago ?
Mr. Lentley. Yes, sir; I think that is as I drew it.
The Chairman. That will go in the record without reading it.
(The affidavit referred to is as follows:)
District of Columbia, ss:
Personally appeared before me, the undersigned authority for and within the
District aforesaid, Martin J. Bentley, who being by me first duly sworn, deposes and
says: That since the year 1896 he has been continuously associated with and in charge
of the Kickapoo Indians either as an agent of the United States or as their agent and
trustee by their election, acting for and with them both in the United States and in
old Mexico.
The item of $41,000, being Senate amendment 111 of the Indian appropriation bill,
includes the sums of money actually and necessarily expended by me or through me
and out of the community fund of the Mexican Kickapoo Indians.
That the Mexican Ki( kapoo Community in Mexico are not indebted to any attor-
ney or attorneys, nor is there any known demand to me on the part of any attorney or
attorneys, or claim of any kind or character for legal services due from or claimed to
be due from said community; that not $1 of said $41,000 would be paid to any attorney.
It is a reimbiusement to the Kickapoo fund for cash already paid and expended in
the defense of the Kickapoo Indians and the Kickapoo Community occasioned by
the interference and persecution of said community, its members ancl helpers, by the
Indian Bureau in its efforts to deprive these Indians of their liberty, to destroy their
property rights, and to by indirection defeat the objects of the laws of Congress enacted
lor the benefit and in the furtherance of their efforts to establish themselves perma-
nently in the Republic of Mexico.
(Signed) Martin J. Bentley.
District op Columbia,
City of Washington:
Sworn to and subscribed before me, a notary public in and for the District of Colum-
bia, this 31st day of July, A. D. 1912.
[seal.] (Signed) R. B. Nixon, Notary Public.
My commission expires December 16, 1915.
The Chairman. You say you do not know anything about the
accounts of Mitscher and Fitdd ?
Mr. Bentley. I do not, unless I can look them over. It is possible
there may be something there
The Chairman. I see in one of these accounts there is a fee charged
to you of $200. Did t ither Mitscher or Field pay ytm a fee ?
Mr. Bentley. It might be termed a fee, perhaps. That item —
after I had tiu'ned over, as I believed from my records, all the money
I had, and a little more, to my cotrustees, and $100 was readvanced to
me to come here to Washington and make this settlement, I was paid
$100.
Representative Burke. What is the aggregate of that?
The Chairman. The aggregate of your statement appears to be
$48,523.
Mr. Bentley. I think that is correct.
Senator Townsend. May I ask a question there ? All this money
was expended by you prior to the appropriation of the $215,000?
Mr. Bentley. Most of it; not all of it.
Senator Townsend. What portion of it was expended after that?
Mr. Bentley. Well, Senator, I wouJd Jiave to refresh my recollec-
tion and figure it over to tell you. A good (knil of it. The most of
it, I think, was before I received any of the $215,000.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1607
Senator Townsend. Where did you get the money that you paid
out prior to the time this $215,000 was appropriated?
Mr. Bextley. Senator, I sold farm land, 1 sold town lots, I col-
lected mortgages. I got money — borrowed it. I got it anywhere
and everywhere I could.
Senator Townsend. You spent your own money ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; I spent my own money, too.
Senator Townsend. Thousands of dollars ? And you at that time
had no assurance you were ever going to get anything for the Indians ?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir; I took chances.
Senator Townsend. So you spent $30,000, we will say — $32,000,
if I have it correctly — prior to 1908 of your own money?
Mr. Bentley. Either my own or that I had pledged my credit for.
Senator Townsend. Well, it was your money.
Mr. Bentley. My money; yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. At that time how much were you worth ?
Mr. Bentley. Well, the $30,000, or approximately that, that I
would have been held for at that time had I been compelled to meet
these obligations myself out of my own funds and my property at
forced sale — I don't suppose it would have left me anything.
Senator Townsend. So you spent, either what you had or on
credit, more than you were worth ?
Mr. Bentley. More than I would be worth at forced sale; yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. And you had at that time, I repeat, no assur-
ance that you were ever going to get a dollar back ?
Mr. Bentley. None in the world, sir. I simply had done this: I
simply had promised to these Indians that if I lived I would secure
them a home in Mexico. And if any man ever endeavored to keep
an agreement or to follow out a thing that he had attempted to do,
in the belief that it was right, I did it in this case. The only wrong
I have done in that is to my family.
Senator Townsend. Now, is it not a fact that the Indians lost
more — because nearly all these items you have mentioned here have
been items of expense either paid to attorneys or in law suits for
witnesses, bringing men back and forth from Mexico — is not this
loss more than the Indians would have lost if you had not touched
that at all ?
Mr. Bentley. No. Oh, you mean had I r.ever had anything to do
with that?
Senator Townsend. Yes.
Mr. Bentley. No. Had this whoJe $215,000 gore to them for the
purpose that it was intended for, ard had I not been interfered with
and cf;rried out my plan, they would have been two or three hundred
thousa'd doihirs better off.
Senator Townsend. You could have gotten that $215,000 without
all of these expensive lawsuits and other things and going down to
Mexico.
Mr. Bentley. Yes; but, Senator, their land -or at least the value
of $250,000 — they had been robbed of it, and this expc se was im-
curred hirgely in recovering that. Tlie Ui:itcd States was responsible
absolutely for these titles being taken away from them. Had they
been given the sam.e protection that other citizens of the Ui ited
States had in a foreign country they never would have been robbed,
1608 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
but through the counivance of the Indian Bureau they were denied
consular protection. We were denied all those rights and privileges
that go to a foreigner in a foreign country.
Senator Townsend. You induced them to go to Mexico ?
Mr. Bentley. No indeed, vSenator. I never induced them to go.
They seduced me into taking them.
Senator Townsend. They would not have gone there if it had not
been for you.
Mr. Bentley. Oh, I think they would. They would not have
stayed in Oldahoma so long. Here is what would have happened,
Senator. The original money that came into my hands, of theirs,
to move them mth — an Indian would get $3,000 or $4,000 and give
me that in trust. I gave him my note, and ultimately paid it all
back. But I have served him, I have moved him down there, and
fed him, and clothed him, and let him have the money as soon as he
needed it until it was all paid back. Any part of it that I used were
those who had no money unless this $86,000 fund, or land-sale fund,
would have come into my hands. Do I make that clear?
Senator Townsend. Very clear.
Mr. Bentley. All the sums received by me from them as indi-
viduals were turned back to them except one note. I owe one In-
dian yet $800.
Senator Townsend. I realize that. I am assuming that all that
is true. You stated, I believe, in your testimony that when you were
agent for the Indians they were in a prosperous condition?
Mr. Bentley. When I left them; yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. When you left them they were in a prosperous
condition. Then commenced the movement into Mexico ?
Mr. Bentley. Not immediately.
Senator Townsend. How soon ?
Mr. Bentley. I left the service in September, 1901, and they began
moving to Mexico in January, 1903, or 1904. They had a good,
thorough trial of the new agent and new officials. I have the date
here on a letter I wrote to Senator Quay when the first bunch left.
Senator Townsend, I do not care to go into any argument about
that.
Mr. Bentley. I just want to supply the date.
Senator Townsend. I will assume that it is somewhere in 1903 or
1904.
Mr. Bentley. Yes.
Senator Townsend. At that time the Indians were propserous ?
Mr. Bentley. No; when they began to leave there and go to Mexico
they had fallen into a state of disaffection again. They were fighting
among themselves. A good deal of then property had been stolen —
their mules. They w^ere not in the condition then that I had left
them in a year and a half or two years before that.
Senator Townsend, Do you consider those Indians better off to-day
financially than they were when you took them into Mexico, or when
they went into Mexico ? »
Mr, Bentley. Yes. '
Senator Townsend. Do you consider that they have obtained a
value sufficient to warrant aU these expenses which you have incurred
to them ?
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1609
Mr. Bentley. Oh, no, Senator. If they had been paid for all they
suffered, or were I to be paid for all I have suffered, I would not —
$86,000 would not be anything.
Senator Townsend. What I am getting at is this: Was this invest-
ment of $48,000 a good one for the Indians ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes; in this way: Looking at it from the Indian's
standpoint, to have remained where he was, he could not; he would
have perished there, and he knew it. He was seeking self-preservation.
They were seeking to get away where they might perpetuate them-
selves, and from that viewpoint it was weU invested. They are
growing now rapidly.
Senator Townsend. There are 40 of them, or such a matter down
there in Mexico who are not living on the reservation or the property
you obtained. They are, as I understood you to say, in a desperate
condition ?
Mr. Bentley. There is no doubt as to that.
Senator Townsend. How about the Indians who remained in
Oklahoma ?
Mr. Bentley. Senator, you will find them in the ditches. You will
find them drunk on the streets of Shawnee. You will find that they
are not living well. Thev have not got from dav to day as much to
eat as my Indians have in Mexico who are making their own living.
It is my contention— and I base it upon this fact — that the reservation
that I secured for these Indians in Mexico I could have sold to the
Mormons for the purpose of colonization and ]noved my Indians on
somewhere else and gotten $45,000.
Senator Townsend. I want to ask you this question, Mr. Bentley.
It is rather a remarkable thing to me that a n^an that had $30,000
should expentl all that and obligate himself to pay n^ore on a v>rosi>cct
that (lid not seem very bright, at least, of ever getting a dollar back.
I want to ask you if tliere was nobody, either you or anybody cc n-
nected with you, who was interested in any manner of speculation
as to land in Mexico or elsewhere in that project ?
Mr. Bentley. Not that had any active connection with it; no, sir;
at no time, in no way.
Senator Townsend. You talked this matter over with certain gen-
tlemen before you purchased the land down there — bankers and
somebody else ?
Mr. Bentley. Before the tiip.e I had a"{(uired any money sufFicient
to enable me to buy land, I did confer with certain bankers with the
idea of getting them, if I found no other way, to advance the money
necessary, or to buy a piece of country until a time would come when
the restrictions of the Indians would be removed automatically, or
could be removed, so that their estate here coidd be converted into
something to pay for that. If we had gone that route, necessarily
a banker woidd have had to make something out of it. But so far
as I am concerned individually it has not been a matter of s])ecula-
tion with me. I did not do this for money.
Senator Townsend. I am curious to know if the bankers were
influenced by that same humanitarian view that you had.
Mr. Bentley. I am very certain they were not. If I had had any-
thing to do with them, they would have had to be paid liberally for
anything the}^ did. It was a matter with them of investment.
1610 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Senator Townsend. How did you expect to pay them when you
went to talk to them ?
Ml'. Bentley. These bankers ?
Senator Townsend. Yes.
Mr. Bentley. I expected to do this, had they bous^ht a piece of
country suitable for the settlement of these Kickapoos, to have agreed
to pay them some certain stipulated price, allowing them, such a profit,
if we could agree, as should be agreed upon, upon the purchase of the
land, believing, of course, that sooner or later we would get money
some way to pay for it. There was no other way. The Indians were
determined to go, and my effort was to provide a home for them.
Senator Townsend. And you did not think you could provide that
home in Oklahoma ?
Mr. Bentley. Oh, there is no place there left for Indians, Senator —
real Indians.
Senator Townsend. They had property there at that time ?
Mr. Bentley. They have it yet, fortunately. And I am asking
the full committee of the Senate to extend those restrictions for 25
years so they may continue to have it. It is their only salvation.
Senator Townsend. Is not that the land on which you were asking
to have the restrictions removed ?
Mr. Bentley. Oh, yes; but at a time when, had they been removed
and I had been let alone— land was high then in Oklahoma — and with
the funds those lands would have brought I could have acquired for
the Kickapoos 238,000 acres with more than 10,000 cattle, and that
would have made them an ideal home. It was my idea to go to San
Antonio, Tex., and spend practically the rest of my lifetime there.
To me that is an ideal country.
Senator Townsend. Originally you wanted the restrictions re-
moved, because you thought you could take the money that could
be obtained from their lands and invest it to better advantage in
Mexico for the Indians ?
Mr. Bentley. As to just a few of them. As to those seven; I had
no intention at first of getting any restrictions removed from any
but the seven. I secured those deeds to all those pieces of land —
their homes — or somebody associated Avith me. Had the department
followed the law, which was mandatory, and directed the Secretary
of the Interior to immediately issue thosL' patents — but they did not
do it. The land had fallen in value. Had I not been interfered with
and had tlie patents issued, as the evident intention of the law must
have been, then I could have readily gotten money enough to have
made a payment on this tract of land of 238,000 acres.
Senator Townsend. Your intention in the first instance was to
get the restiictiors removed from those seven allotments
Mr. Bentley. Only.
Senator To"\vnsend. And you were going to t;ike that money and
invest it where ?
Mr. Bentley. To buy a pr()])erty kno-sAni i:s Pedro Blanco in the
Stiite of Coj'huila, Mexico.
Semi tor Townsend. Whoso property was that to be ?
Mr. Bentley. That was to be the ])n)j)erty of the Irdians.
Semi tor Townsend. What Iiulians?
Mr. Bentley. The Kickapoo Indians. You mean, from whom
was I to purchase it ?
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1611
Seriutor Toavnsend. No. The money you obtair.ed from the sale
of the allotments of these seven Indians was to be invested in Mexico
and the land was to belong to all the Indians ^
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Sciiator TowNSEXD.. Did those seven Indians consent to that?
Mr. Bentley. They did, and their testimony is found in that record
taken under the process of a JMexican court, where they each so testi-
fied that they turned tlieir land over to me so it might be exchanged
for Mexican land.
Senator Townsend. Was not that the money that you expended
down there that you are accounting for here ?
Mr. Bentley. Very little of it, if an}'^; $21,500 of that money was
immediately invested in a piece of land, and that part of the money
received from the sale of those lands was advanced to the owners of
the lands — to Okemah and his wife and to No-ten. It was largely
expended for those indiviciuals. But they were perfectlywilling then,
and are now, that the whole tribe might live on the piece of land
bought with the $21,000 — well, that was Mexicaji monev, of course.
I received at first only $15,000.
Senator Townsend. In gold ?
Mr. Bentley. In gold. And of that, $10,000 or $11,000— prac-
tically $11,000, with expenses — went into a piece of Mexican land.
Had the Secretary issued the patents, we would never have bought
that little piece of lantl at all, but when this fight came up it was the
only thing I could do. Mexico would not tolerate the Indians there
unless they lived upon their own land, and that still belongs to those
persons whose money it was purchased with.
Senator Townsend. Those seven?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir; because those seven never put anything
into it. That land was bought by three of them.
Senator Townsend. Three of the seven ?
Mr. Bentley. Three of the seven, and they still own that land.
It is a desirable property, too.
Senator Townsend. 1 think that is all, Mr. Chairman. I just
wanted to get it straight in my mind where that money came from.
Mr. Bentley. The money that is in that, very little, if any, of
that came from the sale of those seven allotments, because that
money was used to buy a temporary home with, and large sums of
it were paid to the persons whose land I sold; and very little of that
$15,000, or $18,000 and something, that was received from those
three allotments was ever used in this instance.
Sonator Lane. Is this the statement you made to the congressional
committee before they authorized you to expend $8(5,000 of the
Indians' money without bond ?
Mr. Bentley. No.
Senator Lane. You made this afterwards ?
Mr. Bentley. This account was made up after that.
Senator Lane. Did they ask you what expenditures you had made
before they granted you this authority ?
Mr. Bentley. I was asked for two things. One was a schedule of
my individual transactions — what had been received by me, what
had been returned by me, and how much 1 still owed.
S{>nator Lane. That is not what I am asking you. Did you make
them any statement of the amount of money which you say you
1612 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
had voluntarily expended — as I understand, something like $30,000
of your own money ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Did you make a showing to the congressional com-
mittee before this legislation passed which authorized you to expend
more of their money?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Was it some such accounting as this ?
Mr. Bentley. It is in the record of Affairs of the Mexican Kickapoo
Indians. That account showed at that time that I had expended
$45,000 for the Kickapoos.
Senator Lane. And was it itemized in a manner similar to this
and in the same method of accounting as this ?
Mr. Bentley. Largely; it was made in an abstract way.
Senator Lane. Was there any investigation made by them; did
they ask you for a detailed statement concerning it ?
Mr. Bentley. It was gone over very carefully by the clerks of the
committees.
Senator Lane. You say that is in some report ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; it is in the Aff aii-s of the Mexican Ejckapoo
Indians,
Representative Burke. This statement that Senator Robinson
has been interrogating him about was a statement made in 1912,
when he was seeking an appropriation of $215,000.
Senator Lane. I am just wondering what that congressional com-
mittee had before them in the way of a statement to justify them in
giving him more money.
Mr. Bentley. They had this before them. They had a record
here of 2,300 pages, where they had gone into all the affairs which
the resolution of Congress directed them to. They had taken testi-
mony from everybody who knew anything abou* it, and they cer-
tified to the Senate, or to Congress, in their report that they found
that, while I had luindled large sums of money, I had been ever
diligent and honest.
Senator I/x\ne. Who certified to this?
Mr. Bentley. The committee of the Senate in their report so
certified, that I had been ever dihgent in protecting the Indians,
and honest with them.. And no doubt the fact that this legislation
passed under a plan that would permit this money to come into my
hands largely grew out of the confidence of those men who did
investigate and did report to (Congress that I had lieen honest and
square with the Indians in my dealiu^js.
And I want, if you will permit me, to say this: There has never
been from the beginning to the end of this transaction any person
connected with me not of the best reputation. If you will take the
attorneys, if you will take the trustee I selected, you will find every-
one of them to be the cleanest and most reputable people. There
are no drunkards and no gamblers among them.
Senator Townsend. You have been testifying here of items of
expense, many of whicli have been for railroad fare. Did you always
pay your railroad fare ?
Mr. Bentley. I did this time. When I was in tlio Indian Service
I had annual passes — the first year, I think. After I went out of the
service, of course, I lost those privileges and I had to pay my fare.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1613
Senator Townsend. Did you never ask for any privileges from the
railroad company ?
Mr. Bentley. This is true: One company — the Missouri, Kansas
& Texas Railway Co. — gave me transportation, and also the Southern
Pacific for a time; but a time came when the law was changed. I
only had trip passes on the Southern Pacific.
Senator Townsend. That was 1906.
Mr. Bentley. And those privileges were cut off.
Senator Townsend. Did you pay railroad fare prior to 1906?
Mr. Bentley. Over some roads sometimes I did. When I was
with a carload of Indians, of course, I paid no fare. It was a kind
of matter of honor. I had a 20-ride book that would take you from
one division to the other on the Missouri, Kansas & Texas.
Senator Townsend. Did you charge the Indians for your railroad
fare?
Mr. Bentley. I did not charge the Indians where I did not pay
it. If I had been using that book all the time that I went up and
down the Missouri, Kansas & Texas Railroad they would have cut
me off from that privilege. Many times I did pay my fare. I could
not ride continuously, or my book would not have held out.
Senator Townsend. You had a pass all the time ?
Mr. Bentley. I had a pass all the time. It is probable that a
good many trips I made I rode on those passes, but not after the
law was passed cutting that off.
Representative Carter. Do you mean to say that there was a
limitation placed by the railroad company on the number of trips ?
Mr. Bentley. That was not an annual pass, Mr. Carter. It was
a 20-ride book.
Representative Carter. You said they would have cut you off if
you had ridden too much. Was there any such restriction?
Mr. Bentley. What I mean to tell the committee is this. Had I
abused the privilege they would not have given me another book.
I think you will find that railroad companies are pretty strict. If
you abuse a privilege extended to you, it will not be extended very
long.
Representative Carter. I rode on passes and books too for a
long time, and I never heard of any such limitation on them.
Representative Burke. I have a pertinent inquiry I would like
to make. I understand you vv^ant this committee to understand
that at the time you got the $215,000 you had expended of your
own money something like S30,000 without any means of reimburse-
ment, and that it would be a loss to you if that -1215,000 was not
appropriated ?
Mr. Bentley. It is a question whether it would have been a loss
or not. I had no security.
Rcpresi ntativo Burke. You have stated to Senator Lane and
also to Senator Townsend, and, I think, to Senator Robinson, that
you had expended this amount of your own funds?
Mr. Bentley. I mean to say by that, if you consider the amount
that I had pledged my credit for, that I had.
Repn sentative Burke. And you would have been out that much,
would you, or a considerable sum?
Mr. Bentley. That would depend.
Representative Burke. Can't you be specific ?
1614 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Senator Townsend. Ho stated that.
Mr. Bentley. I know, but an explanatory answer might be proper.
Reprc St ntative Burke. Let us have the explanatory answer.
Mr. Bentley. I w^ant to be square with this committee. Had I
taken advantage of taking the lands of the individuals, of this old
man's land here, and those individual lands to have paid it all, I
might have rcimburs;fd mys.lf to some ext, nt, but I would not have
done it.
Senator Lane. As a matter of fact, you did, did you not, from the
Indian sitting there ?
Mr. Bentley. Wah-nah-ke-tha ?
Senator Lane. He had property worth about $45,000, had he not?
Mr. Bentley. It w^s at one time, and had the patent issued it
would have brought tliiit; but at the time the ])atent issued it would
not have Ijrought it.
Representative Blrke. I want to call your attention to your
testimony at the time you got this $21.5,000 appropriation:
The Chairman. In what capacity do you represent these Indians now?
Mr. Bentley. I represent them as trustee and attorney.
The Chairman. \AQiat have you to show for that?
Mr. Bentley. Well, I have a written authority which I will be glad to file with the
committee.
The Chairman. Who is it signed by?
Mr. Bentley. It is signed by the chief and the council of the Mexican Ivickapoo
Tribe of Indians in regular council. It is printed in the record of the subcommittee
of the Senate investigating the affairs of the Kickapoo Indians in volume 1, pages
34 and 35.
The Chairman. Are you representing them as friend or employee?
Mr. Bentley. I am representing them in this capacity: My agreement has been
with the Kickapoo Indians that I would be fair with them, and that I should be
paid what was reasonable and just, and that any personal money that I had expended
for tliem should be returned to me. I want to say to you in all frankness that I have
not been paid a dollar for all of the labor I have given to these Indians, covering a
period of seven years. I have been here 13 winters in their interest, and so far have
not been paid anything.
The Chairman. Have you a contract Avith them as to getting a certain percentage
on what you collect for them?
I^fr. Bentley. None whatever; my agreement is, as I have stated, that I shall be
reasonably compensated, and I will accept at any time the judgment of any three
Senators of the Indian Committee of the Senate, who have knowledge of the fact as to
Avhat my compensation shall be vrlien the time comes for me to be paid. I wish to
say, however, that I have ample property and estate of the Kickapoos in my posses-
sion to reimburse myself for the money I have personally expended for them and to
pay myself. In fact, I rely upon the honor of the Indians. They will be fair and
reasonable with me, because they appreciate my disposition toward them.
That was your statement then?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Representative Burke. You gave us the impression, if I under-
stood you, that you had been regularly advancing money to these
Indians; that was practically gone unless this appropriation was
made.
Mr. Bentley. I had.
Representative Burke. Now, let us go further:
The Chairman. You expect compensation if this bill shall pass, do you not, for
what you have done toward securing; the pa^^sage of the bill?
Mr. Bentley. I expect compensation to a greater or less extent in any event. I
have i>ro])erty in my j)ossession which would secure me ordinarily, but if the Indians-
were impoverished or were in distress 1 coidd not take it in Aiew of this. At their
solicitation I have tried to hel]) them, because I thought and in fact knew that their
condition would be bettered were they to move, but in view of their condition over
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1615
there I would not feel warranted in payino; myself anything at the present time, nor
until their affairs are in such a condition that they are at lea4 comfortable.
The Chairman. The reason I asked you the question is because it has been fre-
quently asked upon the floor of the Senate whether any portion of the money is going
to a claim agent.
Mr. Bentley. This claim carries no such feature with it — none whatever.
Mr. Bentley. I meant, of course, the item that I was talking on.
Kepresentative Bubke. Now, you stated that you had paid Mr.
Sam Powell $12,250?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. Because you agreed to pay him one-
half of what you got?
Mr. Bentley. That was in the original agreement when we were
going to the Court of Claims, when we expected to get $1,000,000 or
$1,800,000.
Representative Burke. Do you think the committee undei'stood
that there was any such an agreement at that time, in view of that
statement that is made there ?
Mr. Bentley. I surely do; yes, sir. They did know what I had
reference to, and if you read the item there the item carried no such
thought with it. It did not provide for any attorney fee. I was
wilUng to leave it to the Indians, or any tliree Senators
Representative Burke. You did not say to the Indians. Now, I
want to call your attention to one further statement:
The Chairman. Have they authorized you to settle all their claims and demands
against the Government for $300,000?
ilr. Bentley. I have had authority from them time and time again, which appears
in these records, binding themselves to ratify my acts, and this bill looking to a final
settlement that you have before you will, if it becomes a law, be a receipt when the
Indians accept the money from the United States. The bill was so drawn that the
Government will be absolutely protected against any future claim of these Indians,
and they in good faith understand clearly and fully what the proposition is.
Mr. Bentley. Of course, that was the tribe.
Representative Burke. You said these Indians.
Mr. Bentley. I meant the Kickapoo tribe.
Representative Bltrke. Now, in your final statement you said:
The payment of the small sum will enable the Government to satisfy a large and very
embarrassing claim for an amount far less than the sum due. At the same time it will
rid itself finally and for all time of all supervision over and responsibility for the
affairs of these oft-reputed "unreasonably stubborn, nonprogressive" people. They
are, at the present time, in a foreign country without a home and without means to
procure a livelihood. They went there by the advice of the United States Senators.
They will not return.
Mr. Bentley. That is true.
Representative Burke. Now, do you not think you gave the com-
mittee to understand by that language and what I read previously
that that was a final settlement ?
Mr. Bentley. Not as to the band of the Kickapoos.
Representative Burke. You say "these Indians."
Mr. Bentley. Of course, that had reference to the whole tribe of
Indians.
Representative Burke. Notwithstanding those statements and
notwithstanding the provisions in that act, you did come to Congress
with this claim of $48,000
Mr. Bentley. For them.
1616 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Representative Burke (continuing). And attempted to get Con-
gress to appropriate the amount.
Mr. Bentley. I surely did ; and if you will bear with me a moment
you will agree with me, I think. They never got the $215,000. Had
the Government but stayed away and let them alone the Kickapoos
would now be in Mexico. Had I received that amount of money I
could have bought with it a home big enough for all of them, and it
would have been a final riddance of the whole Kickapoo affair; but
the Indian Bureau came down there and ran the Indians back to
Oklahoma.
Representative Burke. But you stated early in the evening that
you did not expect the American portion of the tribe to get all the
$215,000.
Mr. Bentley. That is true. I expected to provide a home for all of
them; but I expected it would be a joint reservation. These in Okla-
homa were just as keen to go as the others. There is 4,000 of them
there now want to go. If they had any way to go, they would go and
join the others.
Representative Burke. Among all the different times you have
been here seeking legislation affecting the Mexican Kickapoo Indians,
have you at any time appeared before a committee of the House of
Representatives and presented any of these matters that you did
present to the Senate committee prior to the time when this $41,000
was incorporated in the Indian appropriation biU of 1912?
Mr. Bentley. If I did, I have no recollection.
Representative Burke. That is all.
Representative Carter. Why did you not do that, Mr. Bentley?
Mr. Bentley. The only reason was this: Any item, I believed, that
the Senate might pass in relation to these Kickapoos would pass the
House.
Representative Carter. What makes you think that ?
Mr. Bentley. It is the only way I have known of getting Indian
legi-lation. The different items I have gotten have always been put
on in the Senate, and went tln-ough. I have known no other way.
Representative Carter. You never heard of any items passing the
House and then pa sing the Senate afterwards?
Mr. Bentley. Oh, yes; but it has been the custom here, as you
know, for many years that items of legislation have been put on in
the Senate.
Representative Carter. I will say frankly that it has been the
custom where claims came out of these complicated matters that had
not had proper consideration — that they were not taken up with the
House committee. That is very true.
Mr. Bentley. Of course, I am free to say I know of no reason why
I would not have presented a claim of any kind to the House com-
mittee.
Mr. Chairman, may I add just a word? Otherwise I may be
placed in a false light here. It has been said here that at the time
1 made this argument I had title to this old Indian's land here. I
did not have it. His deed had been forged at that time, and I had
no claim on that land whatever. And the Kickaj^oo lands that were
in my hands at that time that I converted into money would not
have been any reimbursement at all. I am absolutely correct in my
statement.
i
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1617
Senator Lane. I understood you to say at the hearing before the
full committee that at one time you had— —
Ikli". Bentley. That was prior to this hearing. When this hearing
was had, that old Indian's name had been forged to a deed and had
gotten into court, and the land had depreciated.
Senator Lane. But it was prior to the legislation of 1908, was it
not?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. That is what I was asking you.
Mr. Bentley. There was nothing in my hands then that would
have reimbursed me.
Whereupon, at 11.50 o'clock p. m., the joint commission adjourned
to meet Wednesday, May 13, 1914, at 8 o'clock p. m.
WEDNESDAY, MAY 13, 1914.
Joint Commission to Investigate Indian xIffairs,
Washington, D. C.
The joint commission met in room 128, Senate Office Building, at
8 o'clock p. m.
Present: Senators Robinson (chairman), Townsend, and Lane;
Representatives Stephens and Burke.
TESTIMONY OF MARTIN J. BENTIEY— Eesumed.
Representative Burke. Mr. Bentley, in connection with the ob-
taining of the legislation in 1905, at which time the restrictions were
removed from seven Kickapoo Indian allottees, was there any money
paid to any person or persons for services rendered with relation to
obtaining that legislation ?
Mr. Bentley. If there was, I do not recall it now. There may have
been^ — no; there was not, so far as I know.
■ Mr. Burke. That is all.
Mr. Bentley. I would like to say this to the commission: If the
commission please, I was examined rather exhaustively on the Kick-
apoo reimbursement before the Committee on Indian Affairs, and
before the record shall leave that feature of this case I would like to
either go into the record or offer for the record some affidavits that
were taken of persons who have knowledge of the expenditures.
Thej^ are very prominent persons.
The Chairman. All right. Go ahead and do that now.
Mr. Bentley. Thank you.
The Chairman. Let us look at that before you read it. [After
examining the affidavit.] This is an affidavit of John W. Gostin?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Go ahead and read it.
(The clerk to the commission thereupon read the affidavit, as
follows :)
State op Arizona, County of Cochise, ss:
John W. Gostin, being duly sworn, says that he first went into the employ of the
Kickapoo community in Mexico in the month of June, 1906; that at that time the
Indiana were living near the town of Muzquiz, in the State of Coahuila; that he wa8
1618 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
employed at that time by M. J. Bentley, who was actin.o; as the agent or business
manager of these people.
Affiant further states that at the time of his employment he was residing near Fort
Smith, in the State of Arkansas; that Mr. Bentley requested him to go immediately to
Muzquiz and that he did so. That on his arrival there he found the Indians in a
badly alarmed condition on account of the action of the agents of the United States
Government, who were then present and apparently aitling the Grimes-C'hapman
people in their attempt to secure titles to the lands of the Indians of Oklahoma; that at
the time the Indians had then planted upon the San Francisco ranch, owned by them,
sometliing like five or six hundred acres of crops, the most of it being corn; that the
crop was then in good condition; that Mr. Outcelt, the United States attorney, was
constantly informing the Indians that they had no titles to these lands and that the
Mexican Government would put them out and that they all would be arrested. As a
partial verification, fjuite a number of them were repeatedly arrested at his request,
so that the Indians from that time were in such a state of alarm that they failed to
properly cultivate their crop and practically abandoned their land in*that State, so
that the c rop of that year was practically a total failure.
Affiant further states that during the time when the above-mentioned Government
officials and others were in the neighborhood of Muzquiz, that they caused the arrest, not
only of many of the Indians, but also caused the arrest of Mr. Bentley, and that during
this entire time,' on account of the Indians being in such an alarmed condition, they did
not work, but remained almost constantly in the city of Muzquiz or in that immediate
vicinity and were of necessity supported entirely out of their community funds.
That under ordinary circumstances they have always during affiant's acquaintance
been able to support themselves when not interfered with.
Affiant further states that he has no figures showing the amount of money expended
by Mr. Bentley out of the community fund of these people for the purpose of protecting
them against unlawful acts, but that he knows some of the items expended and he
himself secured quite a proportion of the provisions used in their support, and after
having examined the account rendered by Mr. Bentley of ' 'Expenses on account of
Outcelt and Grimes-Chapman raid," he is tlioroughly satisfied that the account is
altogether too small, particularly that item entitled " Subsistence of Indians and coach
hire during raid, $1,500."
Affiant states in relation to said item that he personally purchased and handled more
than that amount of provision 5, and clothing alone during said raid.
He further states that he made repeated" trips from the town of Muzquiz to Eagle
Pass, Tex., the number of which he can not state, but thinks that he made at least
12 round trips at an expense of not less than $10 for each trip.
Affiant further states that one Edward P. Erney was employed by Mr. Bentley
at that time as clerk and that he, in the protection of said Indians, made at least 10
round trips during said raid from Muzquiz to the border at an expense of not less
than $10 per trip; that a portion of these trips was made during the time when Mr.
Bentley was in confinement and that a portion of them was made after Mr. Bentley
had escaped, but was unable to return to the protection of the Indians personally,
and that all matters of detail were intrusted to this affiant and to the said Erney.
Affiant therefore says that item in said account entitled "Their subsistence, car
fare, telegrams, and other incidental expenses, $300," is altogether too small for rail-
way expenses alone must have been near this amount, and that in addition thereto
there was coach hire of not less than $100, hotel bills for 60 days, and numerous other
expenses which were constantly occurring and must of necessity be met in order to
secure any protection whatever from the Mexican officials.
Affiant further states that the two items in said account referred to, he is thoroughly
convinced, ought to be more than $3,000 instead of $1,800.
Affiant farther says that to his personal knowledge that during one week when Mr.
Bentley was confined in jail two sums of money aggregating, he thinks, $1,000 gold,
were sent to Mr. Bentley from the United States and that he knows that said sums
had all been expended prior to the time of Mr. Bentley reaching the border at Eagle
Pass and that thereafter he ])aid numerous bills at various stores, the aggregate sum of
which it is impossible for him to state, but that he knows it is far in excess of the
account here rendered.
Affiant further states that he was in charge of the remoA^al o this community from
the State of Coahuila to the State of Sonora during the summer of 1907, and that the
item in said account under the heading of "Expense for removal of entire tribe from
Muzquiz, Mexico, to Sonora, Mexico," etc., item entitled, "Permission to pass through
Mexican properties, $275, " is entirely too small, for this item should include amount
paid fur use of water and camping privileges, as well as the amount passing through
various properties, and if these amounts were added to, should be not less than $500.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1619
Affiant further states that the only knowledge he has of the expenses incurred in
the trial of civil action in Oklahoma is from the number of witnesses taken from
Mexico to Oklahoma, and that he knows that there was a large number of witnesses
80 taken and that their expenses were paid out of the community funds.
Affiant further states that a large expense was incurred in the "taking of depositions
in cases pending m the Federal courts of Oklahoma; that these depositions were
taken on the part of the Indians by W. S. Field and were taken on two or three differ-
ent occasions at Monclova, Mexico, and at Eagle Pass, Tex., that in the taking of these
depositions there was no representative of the Government of the United States
present.
Affiant further states that he had charge of said community in the year 1908 at the
time of the passage of the act provided for the payment of the Kickapoo Indians of
, 1215,000; that at this time and prior to the passage of the act Marc Goode claiming
to be a representative of the Interior Department, was in the United States and Mexico
I in the neighborhood of said community for a long time and that his business seemed
I to be to, if possible, induce members of said community to return to Oklahoma;
j that he began his operations some 30 days prior to the date of the passage of the act; of
I the holding of the council provided for in said act; that he, during that time, frequently
I visited the camp of said community; that he took with him one time a policeman in
uniform from the city of Douglas, and although the Indians had all prior to that
visit refused to even talk to him, yet at that time by some means he took from the
camp four boys and one young woman. These people he marched over 35 or 40 miles
, to the international border in the nighttime and put them aboard an eastbound train
; at a little flag station 20 miles east of the city of Douglas, and returned them to Shaw-
j nee, Okla. ; that thereafter said Goode openly boasted that his only purpose had been
I to break the majority of the Kickapoo Tribe as theretofore held by the community
; of Mexico. ■'
[ Affiant further says that in the attempt to protect this communitv against these
; unlawful proceedings there were large sums expended, the total of which he is entirely
i unable to give, but that he is thoroughly convinced tliat the statement of said account
; being the last one m the Bentley account, is entirely too small; that the first item^
i ^J^^^tled '■F.xtra trip, etc.," does not cover the railway expenses of that matter at
;aJ.l, lor Mr. hield was compelled by the developments to come from Washington to
the city of D(.uglas and return and to remain in the citv and its neio-hborhood for
something like 30 days and during said activities of Mr. Goode, there were repeated
, tnpsinade by affiant and Mr. Field from the citv of Douglas to the cam]) of said com-
I munity, a distance of more than 50 miles, aud that the item of said account of " Liverv
I $25," is entirely insufficient and that said item ought to be at least $100, and that in
I said account there is no item for hotel bills and supi)ort of this affiant and Mr. Field
land JMr. Bentley and his interpreter and their incidental expenses during the time
I when they were in Douglas, as above stated, and that there should be added therein
to said account an item for such bills aud that the .same could not be loss than .?400.
John W. Gostin.
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 20th day of December, A. D. 1912.
Whicht W. Law HON,
n, . . . Notary Public.
My commission expires February 16, 1916.
Senator Lane. Mr. Bentley, do you claim that you have expended
imore money for the Indians than is accounted for ^
I Mr. Bentley. I claim I have spent more than this schedule of the
; different items presented here or to the Indian Committee- spent more
|money tl an is accounted f(H- there; yes, sir.
, Senator Lane. 1 hat is what I understand.
i Mr. Bentley. And in support of that I have an affidavit from the
Ivice consul of the United States down there, who was there all the
(time, and who came to Muzquiz during both raids to protect me and
I the Indians.
i Senator Lane. Mr. Bentley, don't you know exactly how much was
i^pont and did you not keep your books in such shape and your
;accounts, so you would expend neither more nor less than vou ousht
[to expend ? ^ ^
1620 KICKAPOO INDIANS. j
Mr. Bentley. It was awfully difficult in the confusion to keep the
accounts. In making up these accounts I have had to take them
from every memorandum, and I have assembled them as best I could,
being careful never to get in any more than I did expend ; but naturally
there were expenditures made of which I did not keep any account —
numerous telegrams that I sent and, oh, various things.
Another affidavit that I especially would like to have appear in the :
record is that of J. N. Shafter. He was the customs agent of the
National Kailways of Mexico, stationed at the port of entry where I
went and come in doing business for the Indians. He was a scholar
in both Spanish and English and something of a lawyer. He is a
brother of Gen. Shafter. He had been stationed there for many
years, and I frequently in vaiious troubles appealed to him to interpret
and intercede, and probably no man is so familiar as he was with
these affairs. He was an officer of the bank through which I trans-
acted l)usiness, and this is a vohmtaiy affidavit by him, and it is
signed "J. N. Shafter" and sworn to.
Representative Stephens. What is the date of that?
Mr. Bentley. The 29th of March, 1913.
The Chairman. It may be read if it is not long.
(Thereupon the clerk to the commission read the affidavit, as
follows:)
State op Texas,
County of Maverick, ss:
J. N. Shafter, being duly sworn, says that he is customs agent of the National Rail-
ways of Mexico, and has been acting in such capacity since the year 1883 to the present
date, and that from the years 1902 to 1908 he was in the capacity above set forth,
located at the town of Ciudad Porfirio Diaz, in the State of Coahuila, Republic oi|
Mexico, and that during said years he frequently saw M. J. Bentley, who was thai
acting in the capacity of agent or trustee for a community of Kickapoo Indians, whicl
removed about the year 1903 from (3klahoma to a point iu the State of Coahuila, nea|
the city of Muzquiz; that in such removal these people and the property which thev
brought with them passed through the Ciudad Porfirio Diaz port of entry; that because
of his relations with the National Railways of Mexico affiant was thrown into contact
with the said Indians and their agent, Mr. Bentley, very frequently, and that during
these times Mr. Bentley talked frequently with liim and advised wdth him in regard
to the financial and business management of the said community; that affiant spoke
the Spanish language and diu-ing said period had a large personal acquaintance in
the part of the country where this community was located, and for tliis reason was
frequently called upon by the said j\I. J. Bentley to transact for him and with him
business connected with the affairs of said Kickapoo community, and that as a result
of his observation of his relations existing between the said M. J. Bentley and these
Indians and the manner in wliich the said Bentley handled their affairs, he had at all
times the utmost confidence in the said Bentley and in his good intention toward the
said Kickapoo community, and that one of the principal chiefs said to him one day:
"Bentley stick to us; we stick to Bentley." That he was during the times above
set forth a stockholder in the Border National Bank, of Eagle Pass, Tex., where the
said Bentley carried his deposits, and that the said bank had the utmost confidence
in the said Bentlev; and because of his relations to the said bank, this afiiant made
himself more familiar with the details of the affairs of the Kickapoo community as
conducted by the said Bentley than he otherwise probably would have done, and
that he always understood that the transactions had by the said Bentley with the said
bank were the transactions of the Kickapoo community and not the individual busi-
ness of Mr. Bentley for the reason that the said M. J. Bentley had no biisiness connec-
tions or associations in the neighborhood of Eagle Pass or Ciudad Porfirio Diaz other
than his connections with the said Kickapoo community for which he acted as agent
or trustee.
Affiant further states that on two or three different occasions Federal officers from theii
United States visited that portion of Mexico in which the said community was located,|
and pretended to investigate the affairs of these Indians, and in the process of suclii
pretended investigation induced the Mexican authorities to imprison the said M. JL'
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1621
Bentley and a number of the Indians under his charge, and that at the same time it
was understood fraudulent deeds were obtained by these persons, and by other persons
cooperating with them, to the lands of these Indians located in the United States;
that on one of these occasions affiant personally assisted the said Bentley to escape
from the Republic of Mexico in order to avoid rearrest after he had once been discharged,
and that through this interference and the connivance of these Federal officers of the
United States with dishonest Mexican officials and land sharks from the United
States a condition developed wherein this Kickapoo community found it impossible
to longer maintain its existence in that locality, and it wa^ compelled to remove from
the State of ( 'oahuila, and in the process of such removal a portion of the property of
this community was shipped in bond through this port of entry to Douglas, Ariz.,
enabling this affiant to learn of the facts connected with such removal.
Affiant further states that he is informed, and from authoritative sources, that thia
community was the owner of a valuable tract of irrigated land upon which they re-
sided, near the \'illage of Muzquiz, and that during the trouble above set forth their
crops were almost, if not quite, a total failure on account of the arrests and interfer-
ence above mentioned, and that the said community was under an extremely
heavy expense because these Indians and the said Bentley were continually harassed
and persecuted, it was claimed, at the instance of the Indian Department of the United
States, and that these actions were taken on the part of Federal officers apparently
for the purpose of preventing the said community from successfully establishing itself
in the Republic of Mexico. That from what source Mr. Bentley received his funds for
the continuation of this work and the protection of himself and these Indians affiant
does not know, but he does know from personal observation that he was under a con-
stant heavy ca^h expenditure covering the period referred to.
Affiant further states that during this entire time he frequently saw the said Bent-
ley in company with numerous Indians traveling back and forth from the home of
the said community to the Territory of Oklahoma for the avowed purpose of attend-
ing various trials growing out of the affairs herein referred to, and that on at least two
occasions large numbers of said Indians together with Indians from Oklahoma and from
other places, and together with white witnesses, were present before the grand jury
in Eagle Pass in connection with the presentation to said jury of some of the frauds
practiced upon some of these Kickapoo Indians, and that the expense attending all
these transactions must have been many thousands of dollars.
J. N. Shapter.
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 29th day of March, 1913.
A. P. Simpson, Notary Public.
The Chairman. What was the object of procuring that affidavit?
Mr. Bentley. Wliy, to show that I had no other business in that
country, from some one who laiew and who was disinterested, what
my actions were.
Tlie Chairman. What was under investigation at tliat time that
prompted you to obtain the affidavit in March, 1913 ?
Mr. Bentley. I thinli I was prompted to get the affidavit from a
letter that came into my hands, that Mr. Sliafter had WTitten some-
body, along this Hne, and then it was that he was asked for a state-
ment— a voluntary statement.
I The Chairman. Was the expenditure of this $215,000 fund under
jinvestigation then by anybody ?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir.
The Chairman. What I want to know is, how you came to procure
this affida%dt when there was at that time apparently no question
about how you had handled the fund ?
Mr. Bentley. This pertains to reimbursement, not to the $215,000,
land these affidavits were taken from persons wdth the idea of sho^ving
ithe necessity of those expenditures, and that it was because of the
i.nterference of the officers of the United States that I was compelled
to make these expenditures.
35601— PT 13—14 5
1622 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Representative Burke. Wait a minute. Was not some of the
money that you expended, for which you were asking reimbursement
in 19i2, a part of the S8(),000, which was a part of the S215,000?
Mr. Bentley. Well, that may be; tli at probably is true, that some
part of the $86,000 may have been used in some of this expense;
that is probably true, some small part of it.
Now, I hope I will not exhaust the patience of the commission, but
I have one more affidavit that I feel is very important, by a well-
known cfficer of the Government, who was thoroughly famihar with
the conditions.
The Chairman. What is Ms name?
Mr. Bentley. J. A. Bonnet, vice consul.
The Chairman. What is it about?
Mr. Bentley. It relates to the same subject; and probably no one
had a clearer personal knowledge of all I did in that country. He
was friendly in various places when our trouble was, and he came
there as a United States officer.
(Thereupon the clerk to the commission read the affida\4t, as
follows:)
Eagle Pass, Tex., January 20, 1913.
I, J. A. Bonnet, of Eagle Pass, Tex., being duly sworn, depose and say: I am well,
acquainted with Martin J. Bentley; learned to know him in January, 1905; swore a
number of witnesses in a case of M. J. Bentley v. Thackery et al. on January 12 and 13,.
at Muzquiz, Mexico.
I have had much to do with the Kickapoo Indians from 1905 to 1908 at the request
of Bentley, as I was at that time vice consul under Consul L. A. Martin at Ciudad Por-
firio Diaz, Mexico, and Bentley as also many of the Indians were being harassed
and put in jail. I was called on and went to Muzquiz at Bentley's expense some six
or seven times to intercede for Bentley and the Indians, the authorities having put
Bentley in jail for trying to prevent the Indians from being robbed of their lands in
Oklahoma.
Some time during the year of 1905 and 1906 a number of sharpers from Oklahoma
went to Muzquiz for the purpose of buying the lands of these Indians for about one-
fifth of the value, to which Bentley objected; these sharpers allied themselves with
Mr. Conine, of Muzquiz, who spoke good Spanish, and in due course of time the
authorities of Muzquiz were enlisted in behalf of the sharpers of Oklahoma. About
that time there arrived in Muzquiz a gentleman, who represented himself as being a
deputy United States district attorney, and showed his credentials therefor. This
United States deputy attorney aligned himself with these sharpers, and under the
guise of an officer with power opposed Bentley and favored the sharpers. Thus it was
an easy matter to frighten the Kickapoos into anything the sharpers wished. This
attorney pretended to investigate the status of the Indians, but in fact was assisting,
the sharpers to defraud the Indians out of their lands.
During this time Alberto Guajardo was presidente and jefe politico (which means
in plain English a man clothed with absolute power), was appealed to by the sharpers
to assist them in procuring titles to the Indians' lands. He lent his official power
and also the deputy United States attorney, and the three powers combined did just
as they pleased. Mr. Guajardo told me that he would jail anybody that the said
attorney wished to have incarcerated. I had previously received from the State
Department a telegram which read: "Neither you or Vice Consul John A. Bonnet
should take acknowledgments for Martin J. Bentley for Kickapoo Indians." This
telegram was opened by me as the consul; L. A. Martin was absent at the time and I
was in charge of the office (consulate). The day following this telegram two of the
gang called at the consulate and wanted me to take acknowledgments to Kickapoo
lands. I refused to do so; they insisted, saying that the telegram I had received did
not apply to them, and was meant only for Bentley. I refused to comply with their
request; they finally went off threatening to report me to the Department of State for
refusing. This would make it appear that even the State Department had been
imposed on, as it seemed that Bentley was the only one who was barred by the tele-
gram, while Bentley was risking his life and spending his money to keep the Indians
from being defrauded out of their lands by these sharpers.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1623
Bentley and the Indians were repeatedly put in jail for nothing except that Bentley
was trying to keep the Indians from selling their lands for little or nothing. I was
called on repeatedly to come to Muzquiz and get them out of jail, Bentley paying the
expenses — he to the best of my knov/ledge paid me about $400 for making tt e six or
seven trips, as Consul Martin would not approve of my sending in a bill for these
expenses. Bentley was all this time making trips and spending money to keep the
Indians from being defrauded out of their lands, and was furnishing the Indians with
money back and f jrth to the American consulate for their protection, and I imagine
it must have cost him fully $25,000 during these two or three years of embroglio.
Once I was ordered to go to Muzquiz, a^ there were some 90 Kickapoo Indians that
wished to leave Muzquiz and return to the United States. I went and on my arrival
called on the authorities and told them that I had come to escort the Kickapoos out
of Mexico, as they had been told that they could not leave; that if they had any
charges against any to file them. The authorities said that the Indians were at perfect
liberty to go when they pleased; so I informed their chiefs that all that were ready
to leave to be at the depot next dav. Next day, just before train time, some 85 had
gathered at the depot ready to embark for the United States; while waiting for the
train to start I overheard the chief of police instruct his men to permit no Indian
to embark. I asked him by whose authoritv he was going to keep them from going;
he replied he had orders from higher authorities. I then asked the conductor to hold
the train a short while until I could find the presidente, while I went to look for the
authorities, but none could be found, as they had hidden. I took the train for Las
Esperanza=!, for I was afraid to remain there, as my life had been threatened. Next
day I returned and reported to the authorities, who told me I could take the Indians.
I then learned that the evening I left the authorities had driven all the Indians to
the pre.sidente's office and there made them sign away their holdingj in Oklahoma
lands. One woman who had been dead six years even wa^ one of the signers. Bent-
ley had to leave Mexico or he woidd have been put in jail again. The authorities
himted him all over the comitry for nothing else except that he tried to keep the
Indians from being robbed-.
Some time after this a lot of the same Kickapoos wanted to leave Muzquiz overland
by way of ( hihualiua, when some petty officer told them they could not leave unless
they paid him .$1,200. I again went to IMuzquiz and this time I bluffed the author-
ities, for I saw that the whole gang were trying to get the last cent out of them.
I finally, on the third day after my arrival, saw them leave in a body for Sonora,
overland by the way of Chihuahua. Bentley had bought a tract of land for these
Indians near Muzquiz, for which I was told to communicate with Bentley and offer
him $10,000 for it. I do not know what ever became of the land.
J. A. Bonnet.
Sworn to and subscribed before me this 20th day of January, 1913, at Eagle Pass, Tex.
H. A. Bonnet,
Notary Public, Maverick County, Tex.
My commission expires June 30, 1913.
Mr. Bentley. That affidavit was voluntarily made and in the
man's own language, and told in his own way.
The Chairman. When was it written?
Mr. Bentley. It was written by him, I think, in his own office, his
own statement.
The Chairman. How did he come to prepare and furnish you with
this affidavit ?
Mr. Bentley. He was requested to give his version of it.
The Chairman. By whom?
Mr. Bentley. By me, I think; I wrote him. a letter?
The Chairman. You requested him b}' letter ?
Mr. Bentley. I wrote him a letter and asked him would he not
kindly make an affidavit covering the {.ffair, in his own way, and I
think that [indicating] or this one is the one that followed — there are
two of them. He may have made one
The Chairman. It is dated January 20, 1913. You wrote him a
letter tcUing him that you wanted an affidavit from him ?
1624 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Bentley. I wrote him and asked him to make a statement and
attest it.
The Chairman. Have you a copy of the letter that you wi'ote him?
Mr. Bentley. I think I have; I won't be certain, but I think I
have. I think it is among my papers.
The Chairman. Have you it with you ?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir. •
The Chairman. Did you get a letter from him accompanying this
affidavit, when he sent it to you ?
Mr. Bentley. I think that the statement was prepared, and I
received a letter from Bonnett saying that he had prepared the affi-
davit and handed it to Mr. Field, is my recollection. I think Mr.
Field
The Chairman (interposing). Do you know whether or not Mr.
Field prepared the affidavit?
Mr. Bentley. I am very certain he did not.
The Chairman. Why ?
Mr. Bentley. Because I asked Bonnett to prepare it himseK in
his own language and in his own way. I do not think Mr. Field pre-
pared it.
The Chairman. How did he happen to hand it to Mr. Field ? What
did Mr. Field have to do with it ?
Mr. Bentley. Mr. Field was down at Eagle Pass, is my recollec-
tion of how he came to hand it to him.
The Chairman. Do you know of your own knowledge who prepared
this affidavit ?
Mr. Bentley. Of course, I did not see it prepared. Senator, but I
believe it was prepared by Bonnett himself, because it sounds like his
way of telling things.
The. Chairman. Who prepared the Shaffer affidavits?
Mr. Bentley. I think himself.
The Chairman. Did you help prepare it ?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir; I had nothing to do with it.
The Chairman. How did he come to send you an affidavit? Did
you write to him for it ?
Mr. Bentley. I think that grew out of a letter that somebody
handed me that he had written. I think he wrote to Senator Curtis.
The Chairman. What did he have to do with it ?
Mr. Bentley. Senator Curtis ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Bentley. Shaffer had known Senator Curtis when he was a
boy, I think, and some inquiry from somebody in Kansas had been
made of Sliafter, and he evidently took the matter up and wrote a
pretty complete history of the Kickapoo matter, when they were
taken out of Muzquiz, and a lot of data in relation to it, and later he
was asked to prepare an affidavit. But, now, whether he prepared
that, or somebody else, I do not know.
The Chairman. Was Senator Curtis interested in getting this
appropriation made ?
Mr. Bentley. Oh, no; he had no interest in it, but he was one of
the investigating committee who were to investigate it.
The Chairman. That was six years before, and he was out of the
Senate then, was he not ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1625
The Chairman. How did he come to be getting up proof to sub-
stantiate this claim for reimbursement appropriation ?
Mr. Bentley. He did not. A letter came to my notice.
The Chairman. Who sent the letter to you ?
Mr. Bentley. I think I picked up the letter, if my recollection is
correct, in Mr. Field's office. I think I may have a copy of it here,
the letter that I have reference to.
The Chairman. Who was the letter addressed to ?
Mr. Bentley. The letter had been addressed by Mr. Shafter to
Senator Curtis.
The Chairman. How did it got into Mr. Firld's office ?
Mr. Bentley. That I do not know. Tliat is whore I saw it first.
I do not think I have the letter hero that I had in mind. I thought
it was among those papers [indicating].
The Chairman. Do you know wlieth' r or not these two affidavits
you have just introduced into the record were prepared by Mr. Field
and in his office ?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir. I have not any knowledge as to whore they
were actually prepared, other than as I have stated.
The Chairman. Did you send the follov/ing telegram? [Reading:]
St. Louis, Mo., March 4, 1905.
Roman Galan, Muzquiz:
Bring Okeraah and wife, Notaii and wife, Jim Deer and wife, Pah-ko-tah and his
sister Tah-pah-the-a; Ne-cou-o-pit and wife to Diaz next Tuesday. Don't iross river
until you see me or let them sign anything. Money for them.
M. J. Benti.ey.
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; I sent that.
The Chairman. What was the object of that tel gram?
Mr. Bentley. The object was that I had been advised by tele-
graph at St. Louis, that the restrictions had l)een removed, and the
object was to get them out there and get their deeds and get them of
record, so that they might not be held up by somebody.
The Chairman. How much money did you pay them ?
Mr. Bentley. I paid the woman referred to as Tah-pah-the-a S300
Mexican money.
The Chairman. What was her land worth ?
Mr. Bentley. I think Mr. Thackery has since sold it and can tell
you.
Senator Townsend. Sold for how much did you say ?
Mr. Bentley. It was worth then about $3,000.
The Chairman. What did you pay Notan?
Mr. Bentley. I think at the time — March, that was — 1 paid
Notan $100.
The Chairman. What was his land worth?
Mr. Bentley. My recollection is that it was sold for $3,000, that
piece.
The Chairman. And Jim Deer, what did you pay him?
Mr. Bentley. Jim was paid, if anything, very little. He had
plenty of money, and my recollection is he did not want any money
at that time, but I may have paid him $100. I may have done that;
I won't be certain.
The Chairman. What wa.^ his land worth?
Mr. Bentley. Well, at that time, I should say about $6,000. I
ultimately paid him $6,500 for it, I think.
1626 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
The Chairman. For whom did you take these titles ?
Mr. Eentley. I think four of them was taken to Mr. Ives, two to
Mrs. Bentley, and one to J. H. Everest.
The Chairman. Who furnished the money to pay these sums that
were paid ?
Mr. Bentley. My recollection is, it was my own money; I am very
certain it was.
Ihe Chairman. Were you reimbursed for this fund?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; later it was — in a way it was reimbursed to
me. It was charged to the Indians.
The Chairman. It was charged to the community in that state-
.ment you made, was it?
Mr. Bentley. I do not think so. I do not think there is any-
thing charged there.
The Chairman. Whj was it not ?
Mr. Bentley. Because it was a different transaction. Out of
those lands a temporary home was bought for all the Indians and they
moved onto it.
The Chairman. Where ?
Mr. Bentley. Near Muzquiz, Mexico, a tract of land known as
the "San Franci co Ranch," and only three pieces of the lands were
sold in any reasonable time. The allotment of Pah-ko-tah went back
to him; the Ne-con-o-pit and Tah-pah-the-a was held by us and finally
deeded back to the Government or to Mr. Thackery; I have forgotten
ju-t how that was arranged. The allotment of Noten was sold, I
think, for about S3,000.
The Chairman. Did you send this telegram (reading):
St. Louis, Mo., March 4, 1905.
Roman Galan, Muzquiz:
Feed Kickapoos one hundred dollars flour and meat. Good news. See me soon.
M. J. Bentley.
Mr. Bentley. I expect I did.
The Chairman. What was "the good news?"
Mr. Bentley. Well, I have really forgotten, Senator. Roman
Galan was a merchant at Muzquiz and we traded a great deal with
him, and I exp;^ct the Indians were hungry, and I had sent the tele-
gram wanting them fed.
The Chairman. Did you send this telegram? [Reading:!
San Antonio, Tex., March 6, 1905.
Roman Galan, Muzquiz:
Bring also John Mine. Wire me, Eagle Pass, how many coming.
Bentley.
I
Mr. Bentley. I have no recollection of such a telegram.
The Chairman. Who was John Mine ?
Mr. Bentley. That is an Indian name.
The Chairman. Was that the "Senator" you have been talking
about so much here ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, su-, f,
The Chairman. What did you want with him ?
Mr. Bentley, I have not any recollection now, unless it would be
as int(Tpreter. A great many of them insisted that John act as
interpreter.
I
M
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1627
The Chairman. Did you receive this telegram? [Reading:]
Washington, D. C, March 9, 1905.
M. J. Bentley,
Care of Roman Galan, Muzquiz:
Remain there until I come. It is important. Leave to-day.
W. S. Field.
Mr. Bentley. At the moment I have no distinct recollection of
having received it, but it is more than likely I did. I do not at this
tune recall the circumstances.
The Chairman. Do you know an Indian b}" the name of Roy
Ejckapoo ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes; I think I did.
The Chairman. Did you get him out of jail along in 1908 some
time ?
Mr. Bentley. Well, if I did I have forgotten it , there were so many
of those circumstaiK-es.
The Chairman. I hold in my hand a letter, purporting to be
written by Roy Kickapoo to Henry Pierson, as follows [reading]:
Dot;gl.\s. Ariz.. April SO, 7908.
Mr. Harry Piersov, Shawnee, Okla.
Dear Sir: I will be around in few days. You know that time I was in the jail.
M. J. Bentley pays me out, and he send me way out here at Douglas, Ariz. I never
think he would do that, but I come in before long, and I'll puy you then.
Yours,
Roy Kickapoo.
Mr. Bentley. I recall now the circumstances.
The Chairman. Tell us about that.
Mr. Bentley. Well, this Indian was in jail at Shawnee and
wanted out, and I paid his fine and got him some clothes and shipped
him out to his fatlier in Arizona.
Mr. Thackery. His father?
Mr. Bentley. It may be — you are speaking of Roy Kickapoo?
We may be getting Indians mixed here.
Mr. Thackery. He had no father.
The Chairman. Why was he sent to Arizona?
Mr. Bentley. Because he wanted to go. His folks we'^t out there.
They belonged there.
The ChaiRxMan. That letter indicates he was sent there against his
will. ])o you know anytliing about tliat ?
Mr. Bentley. Why, Senator, they were all of them not only keen
to get out of jail, but keen to get to go to Sonora. I bought tickets
and sent them. You could not any more get an Indian on the train
at Shawnee by any force to send him anywhere than yon could a
white man.
The Chairman. Do you know Mary Pen-e-tho ?
Ml'. Bentley. Mary Pen-e-tho? Yes, sir; she is a Kansas Indian.
The Chairman. Did you borrow money from her?
^Ii-. Bentley. I had of her money at one time $7,000.
The Chairman. Did you have $8,000?
Mr. Bentley. No; I don't think so. She came to me, my recol-
lection is, with about $10,000 in money. I recall well the time. She
brought it to the National Bank, and I had the cashier count it, and
it was deposited there.
The Chairman. How much was it?
1628 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Bentley. She was in debt a good deal. I paid her debts, and
I think the deposit was $10,000, or about that ; and I sent some of the I
money to people she owed in Kansas, at her request, bought a draft j
and sent $300 and three years' interest to somebody who had be- I
friended her. '
The Chaikman. In whose name did you deposit it ?
Mr. Bentley. In my own. 't,
The Chairman. Why ?
Mr. Bentley. She came to me and said, "Take my money and be
responsible." , i
The Chairman. What did you give her ? '
Mr. Bentley. I gave her, after paying her debts and giving her such
money as she wanted to take with her, I gave her my note.
The Chairman. For how much ? j
Mr. Bentley. $7,000. You will find it in the record of the '
"Affairs of the Mexican Kickapoo Indians," and a copy of the note.
The Chairman. Did you pay that note ?
Mr. Bentley. I paid it in full; yes, sir — that is, I never paid that-
identical note, but I paid the account to her in full. m
The Chairman. What do you mean by that ? • f
Mr. Bentley. I mean this: Mary came to me one time, when I '
arrived at Shawnee, and said she had signed some paper, and got into !
court — sometliing about the money that I owed her, and that her
husband was drinking and wanted the money to gamble it off. She
did not want the money. She did not want to make me any trouble,
and wanted to leave the money witli me. So the suit was dismissed.
The note, I think, was never returned to me. But I then gave her^
made her a payment, my recollection is, of $500; and then gave her
a series of notes due each six months to cover the period until the
money would finally be paid out; and tliose notes I met and paid all
of tliem, and usually a little in advance, which m.ade a tJiousand dol-
lars she received each year until they were paid out, and I liave paid
them all.
The Chairman. You did not take up the $7,000 note?
Mr. Bentley. I never did.
The Chairman. Wliy ?
Mr. Bentley. Well, a lawyer, Judge Wood, had brought this suit,
and she had delivered tlie note to him, and he lield it. He has gr^t it
yet, I expect. But, notwitlistanding tliat, I felt .
Tlie Chairman (interposing). What was the suit lirought for?
Mr. Bentley. It was just brougjit because somebody Jiad fooled
tlie woman into g( ing there and having the suit brought against me
when til ere was no necessity for it.
The Chairman. What was the suit ? Were you sued on that note ?
Mr. Bentley. Sued me on that note.
The Chairman. How long after you gave the note ?
Mr. Bentley. Oh, my recollection is the note was due some several
m.onths; jiossibly a year — I don't know.
The Chairman. And you settled the suit 1)V executing new notes
for $500 each, did you ?
Mr. Bentley. No. The first thing I did^ — she went and dismissed
the suit, and then it was I said to her, " You are sjiending your money
too fast. I am going to now j)ay you $1,000 each year, $500 each
six months, " and I gave her a series of notes to cover each six months
I
I
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1629
until the entire amount was satisfied, and those notes were made and
"paid, all of them.
The Chairman. Do you know We-ah-che-kah ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you get money from her ?
Mr. Bentley. I had of her money S4,000 or $6,000, 1 have forgotten
which.
The Chairman. Did you not have S8,000 of her money ?
Mr. Bentley. I do not think that much. I might have had for a
few days, perhaps.
The Chairman. When did you get that, and how did you come to
get it ?
Mr. Bentley. She came and brought it voluntarily and turned it
over to me.
The Chairman. What did you give her ?
Mr. Bentley. I gave her notes, I think. My recollection is that
those were in denominations of $1,000 each, but she took up several
thousand of it very rapidly. She was being urged by somebody to
get her money, and her husband was inclined to spend it. My recol-
lection IS there were six $1,000 notes, and those have all been paid
but one; she still has one note of $1,000 against me, with an indorse-
ment of $200 and something on it. A year ago— probably two years
ago— I paid off next to the last note, the last time I ever saw her.
The Chairman. When did you make that note to her ?
Mr. Bentley. My recollection is I made the notes when I received
the funds.
The Chairman. I know, but when was it ?
Mr. Bentley. I will have to refresh my memory. That must
have been m 19— somewhere m 1903, I think, but I will not be cer-
tain.
The Chairman. When was the note due?
Mr. Bentley. Oh, the notes ? I have forgotten the date. I think
they nm a year, but I won't be sure.
The Chairman. Were you ever sued on them or not ?
Mr Bentley. The balance of them, I don't think so; I have no
recollection of any suit.
The Chairman. You still owe a part of that ?
Mr. Bentley. I owe $800 on the last note.
The Chairman. Do you know Emma Garland ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How much money did you get from her?
Mr. Bentley. I would not want to state from memory, but my
recollection is it was origmally— she brought to my home,' it seems
to me that there was left with me $4,500, somewhere in that neigh-
borhood; it might have been $5,000.-
The Chairman. When was that?
Mr. Bentley. Well, all tliese sums were brought probably within
a period of a year. It was along about the same time, my recollec-
tion IS when 1 received the money from Maiy Penetlio, We-ah-che-kah,
and other money.
The Chairman. How did you use these moneys that you borrowed
irom tiiese Indians, or received from them ?
Mr. Bentley. I took tliese sums of money and gave them my
note or some evidence of tlie indebtedness, and I took tliosc funds in
1630 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
general and used them for the benefit of all the Indians, notwith-
standing the sums had to be ultimately returned. If I used any
money at any time for myself it mi^ht have been that I bought a
piece of land, in which some of their money may have been for a
short period of time, but of all the sums I have ever received from
any individual, notwithstanding I used the individual funds that
I was personally responsible for for all of them, those funds have
all lieen returned, so far as I know, or excepting the one payment of
$800, for which there is now an outstanding note. There are no
notes or other evidence of indebtedness outstanding, to my knowledge,
except the note referred to, on which I was sued, and which I think
Judge Wood still had. If there is any other, I have no knowledge
of it.
The Chairman. Did you get any money from Okemah and his
wife?
Mr. Bentley. Well, I got money from them.
The Chairman. How much ?
Mr. Bentley. Well, my recollection is that probably first and last,
S20,000.
The Chairman. Did you not get $32,000?
Mr. Bentley. No, no. I sold, or their allotments through other
parties were sold, so that I should have received $32,000, but $15,000
in cash was paid at the time of the sale. Later one of the notes that
were given as security on the land, on their two allotments, which
is 154 acres, $5,000, I think, was paid to me. That money is the
money that was used to buy the ranch in Muzquiz, known as the San
Francisco Ranch, and which is the property on which the whole
community came and lived.
The Chairman. I thought you bought that property out of the
$86,000?
Mr. Bentley. No, no; it is the property in Sonora. This had
been bought before that; this was bought out of that first seven
allotments, growing out of the sale of three of the first seven allot-
ments ill 1905.
The Chairman. Did you ever settle with Okemah and his wife
for that?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
I would like to state to the commission while we are on the Okema
matter exactly what I did.
The Chairman. You know No-ten, do you?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How much money did you get from him?
Mr. Bentley. I could not give the exact amount from mcmoryi
I think about $3,000; that is, that belonged to him for which I was
accountalde to him.
The Chairman. A\^iat did you do with that?
Mr. Bentley. I supported No-ten a good many years. Plis testi-
mony will b(> found in volume 3 of the record, and as to his own state-
ment I would like to offer it at this stage of the proceedings.
The Chairman. I asked you, what did you do with his money?
You Ciin answer that question. Did you use it to pay yourself lor
som(>thing he owed you, or what disposition did you make of his
money ?
Mr. Bentley, I gave him moiu^y from time to time to live on.
S
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1681
The Chairman. Before you got this $3,000 or after?
Mr. Bentley. Both before and after.
The Chairman. How much did he owe you when you got th-
.$3,000?
Mr. Bentley. It was very little, if anything, that he owed me.
The Chairman. Did you pay it out for him after that ?
Mr. Bentley. I either paid it all out for him or protected him,
but in any event I did that in his interest in the land that I bought
with his money. I bought the San Francisco ranch with the funds
of Oke-mah and his wife, and with the funds derived from the land
of No-ten, and No-ten has an interest in that land with them.
The Chairman. What did you pay for the San Francisco ranch ?
Mr. Bentley. I paid what in American money at the time of pur-
chase would be about $11,000— $10,000 and something, or $10,500
and something.
The Chairman. Where did these Indians get all this money they
were letting you have ?
Mr. Bentley. They got it from the sale of dead land.
The Chairma-n. What ?
Mr. Bentley. They got it from the sale of dead lands, where their
relations had died and they had inherited the lands.
The Chairman. Did you sell thee lands for them?
Mj\ Bentley. No, sh; I had nothing to do M-ith that.
The Chairman. But they brought the money to you and asked
you to take it and handle it for them ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know how much money, all told, you
handled in that way ?
Mi\ Bentley. I have a memorandum that would show. I haven't
it with me, but I can supply it
The Chairman (interposing). About how much?
Ml". Bentley. Tliat passed through my hands ? I have got neces-
sarily to make an explanatory answer to your question. For in-
stance Pequa came and gave me $2,000. He did not want to receive
it at Shawnee, but he wanted to receive it at Eagle Pass. I simply
dejiosited it in one bank, and when I arrived there I checked it out
thi-ough the other. The money simply passed through my hands,
and there was a good deal of money of that character; but the
moneys that I received and kept for any considerable time I do not
think exceeded $20,000. That would be my judgment now — I mean
out ide, of course, of what is known as the "first seven" transac-
tion.
The Chairman. Do you remember a Mr. Clark?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; Joseph Clark; I remember him well.
The Chairman. Did you write him, in postscri])t to a letter under
date of October 23, 190:3 [reading]:
P. S. — Wire me in case the fair-ground money comes. I encouraged We-ah-che-kah
to come south to hold a key to the situation. They can not pay it out until she comes.
She and Pen-a-tho will loan me S10,000 if it comes in time, and that will let us in on
the deal we want. Don't be afraid to use the wire to keep me advised if the money
comes.
M.J. B.
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
1632 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
The Chairman (continuing) :
Please tell Sol to call for letter at post office and to say nothing about what it con-
tains.
What was the deal that you and Mr. Clark wanted to put through?
Mr. Bentley. Wliy, we had located a tract of land over in the
Creek Nation, I think, that we believed had oil under it, and it was a
good purchase in agricultural value, and my recollection is that at
that time I intended to use those Indian funds, such as they were
willing to let me have for that purchase.
The Chairman. To buy land for you and Clark?
Mr. Bentley. Oh, no; it was a mere speculation.
The Chairman. What did you mean by " and that will let us in on
the deal we want" ?
Mr. Bentley. I had reference to the oil-land deal over in the Creek
Nation, probably.
The Chairman. Let me understand whether or not that was a deal
that you were personally interested in or was it a deal you were mak-
ing for the Indians ?
Mr. Bentley. It was this way. Senator: My agreement with these
Indian women was that if they would leave their money with me to
buy these lands, if possible, from the Chickasaws or Choctaws, over in
the oil country, that when their "dollar" came back, if I made any-
thing I would make a fair division with them; and had they left their
money with me and not been importuned to harrass me eternally I
could have made them some money.
The Chairman. I thought you said a whUe ago that they brought
this money to you and asked you to use it.
Mr. Bentley. They did.
The Chairman. It appears from this statement that you were
offering them inducements to let you have the money.
Mr. Bentley. Notwithstanding that, I received the offer of money
from Mary Pen-e-tho, the $10,000 which she brought to me volun-
tarily in a blanket, and the cashier — the son of the president of the
bank — I called him back in the president's room and he counted the
money; that was brought to me vc^luntarily.
The Chairman. Who was "Sol," whom you had told Clark to have
call at the post office and say nothing about what the letter contained ?
Mr. Bentley. That was Sol WiUiams, who was a stone mason and
mechanic.
The Chairman. What were you writing him that you wanted to
keep a secret ?
Mr. Bentley. Something about a mineral
The Chairman (interposing). Have you got a copy of that letter?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir; I have not.
The Chairman. What was your object in coupling it with the other
transaction, in having him tell Sol to say nothing about what the
letter contained ?
Mr. Bentley. Well, my recoUcction now is that he had written
Sol in regard to a mineral deposit, and thc^re was traiUng around with
him a fellow named Bartow, a very mouthy Uttle fellow, and I did
not want Bartow to know anything about the mineral deposit that
I wanted Soloman to go and investigate. Bartow was a crank on
minerals; Sol. Williams was a prospector and stone mason; and I
M
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1633
know of no other thing that I have cautioned Clark to tell him to
remain quiet about.
The Chairman. What did you do with that $10,000 you o-ot
from this Indian Pen-e-tho ? ^
Mr. Bentley. I did not retahi the S10,000, Senator.
The Chairman. You did not retain the $10,000? How much
did you get?
Mr. Bentley. My recollection is that there was left in my hands
about $7,000— there might have been $8,000— but whatever there
was I secured her with a note; paid her debts.
The Chairman. How much clid you get? Did you pny out some
of it?
Mr. Bentley. I paid out a good deal. I sent money away to
Kansas, where she had debts. She had local debts, and she carried
away a good deal of that money. I would r;ot be able from memory
to say exactly, but I know I gave her in the way of evidence of
indebtedness a note for the {i mount that was due her.
The Chairman. How much did you get from her iii all before you
paid out anythhig or sent anything out ?
Mr. Bentley. My recollection is she brought to me $10,000
^ The Chairman. That was the same $10',000 that you sjioke of
111 your postscript to Clark that you were going to use to get in on
that deal, was it?
Mr. Bentley. I expect— no, what I had reference to there was
hers and We-ah-che-kah's money. I apprehended they probably
would leave with me— the two women — as much as $10,000. I did
not figure that they would— I want to make myself clear— I want
to say 111 those days I was— I was trying to keep the Indians from
wasting their money.
The Chairman. How did you know they were going to bring you
that money ? You were writing here in advance of the time the^ did
bring it.
Mr. Bentley. I knew the deed was pending here in Wadiino-ton
and that the money would be paid shortly, f knew what the hmds
had sold for. They had sold $39,000 worth of lands— a bunch of
heirs, two or three women. I did not receive but a small part of it
a third of it. '
^ The Chairman. As a matter of fact, Mr. Bentley, did you not
intend and contemplate in advance of procuring these sums from the
Indians you have named that you would obtain loans from them,
and is it not a fact that you did receive loans from them rather than
their voluntarily bringing this money to you ?
Mr. Bentley. Not^in that sense; no, sir.
The Chairman. Well, in any sense ?
Mr. Bentley. They brought their money to me; but if any Kick-
apoo m tnose days had drawn a large sum of money I should have
tried to get possession of it and conserve it for him and i)rotccted
mm. It should be borne in mind I was trustee, by their selection:
I was their agent.
The CHAIRM.4N. You were not trustee for these individual Indians
*^ to individual sums that were coming to them, were you «
Mr. Bentley. I was in this i)osition
The Chairman (interposing). Except for such purposes as borrow-
ing money ?
1634 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Bentley. Tluit is unfair to me, Senator. Behind all this
there is something that if I was to tell it, it would make this clear to
peo])le.
The Chairman. Wliy did you not tell me ?
Mr. Bentley. If you will p' rmit me, I will. Then you will
und'n-stand why these Indians canv\ I can t(ll you part of it.
After I went out of the service of the United (States, these Kicka-
poo people, under a superstition they had, came and gave themselves
to me. That is why I controll-^d them absolutely.
Here came a man and liis wife, and women and children, and said,
"Take us, and take car'^ of us and take what we have got." And
God knows I have been faithful to thoir trust. I have sp< nt their
money and my own protecting them. Thers arc certain church
secrets in regard to the Kickapoo Indians that I can not tell this
commission.
The Chairman. Certain what ?
Mr. Bentley. Church secrets — certain superstitions that have a
whol'' lot to do with Indians trusting white men. There arc certain
secrets that should have b?en borm^ in mind, that before the Kicka-
poo Indians -"ver saw white men tb_ey kn» w Masonry. They have a
secret organization clear back l)efore they ever heard of the white
man.
The Chairman. Did you belong to that organization ?
Mr. Bentley. I would not want to say whether I did or do or do
not. I do not want to testify as to that.
The Chairman. Wiiy?
Mr. Bentley. Because there are certain secrets connected
The Chairman. I have not asked you anything about the secrets.
Mr. Bentley. I say that is why I would not want to testify
The Chairman (interposing) . You mean to say whether or not you
joined that organization ?
Mr. Bentley. Well, it don't come about in that way. I don't
belong to it in that way, but this I will say^
The Chairman. In what way do you belong to it ?
Mr. Bentley. This I will say to you: I have no church and no
lodge, and I could not have and never will have. I believe that the
Kiclvapoo's religion is a better one than the white man's, and I know
it — I believe I know it is; that anything that may exist among nigh
of kin, which makes women virtuous and men truthful and honest,
that tiling or kind of thing we call '' religion," that causes the parent
to have that control over his offspring that he will be absolutely
obedient forever without chastisement is to me a grand thing.
The Chairman. You have wandered from everything I have asked
you. At the time you procured these loans from these Indians, did
you belong to this secret order, of which you have spoken, with them ?
I am not asking you what the secrets of the order were?
Mr. Bentley. I belonged to this extent, and I believe now — they
adopted me and I adopted them, and I want to say to you that had
I ever at any time or would I now take a penny from those Indians
I would be the most contemptible scoundrel on tlie face of this earth.
The Chairman. You arc wandering again. I simply asked you
the question, whether or not at the time you took the money or bor-
rowed the money from these Indians you belonged to a secret order
with them?
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1635
Mr. Bentley. I can only answer
The Chairman. And if you did what was your object in joining
that order ?
Mr. Bentley. Because the Indians beheved in me and wanted
me to be their friend and to be a member of their organization. I
did not seek it.
The Chairman. That may have been the Indians' object in invit-
ing you to join the order. What was your object in joining it?
Mr. Bentley, Senator, my object was that that is ever apparent
in the nature of men. All men accept leadership of somebody who
trusts them, and I accepted it. I did not seek them; they sought
me.
The Chairman. How long have you belonged to that secret
order ?
Mr. Bentley. Well, you do not state it properly so I can answer
you. It is a delicate proposition.
The Chairman. There is nothing delicate about that. When did
you adopt them and when did they adept you, if you want to put
it that w^ay ? I do not care how you put it.
Mr. Bentley. Soon after I left the service of the United States
these Indians came and, in their way of puttmg it, they gave them-
selves to me and I gave myself to them, and that is as far as I shall
testify here or anywhere else while I live, and that is sufficient.
The Chairman. I have not asked you to testify as to the secrets
of the order. I asked you when that occurred.
Mr. Bentley. That was soon after I left the service of the United
States,
The Chairman. About when was that?
Mr. Bentley. Probably m the year 1902.
The Chairman. Does W. S. Field belong to that same order?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir; I don't know anything about that.
The Chairman. How do you know he does not ?
Mr. Bentley. If he does, I do not know it.
The Chairman. Do 5^ou knovv' whether he was invited to join it by
the Iniiians?
Mr. Bentley, I do not think he was. I think there are certain
peculiarities about Field that he never would have been invited.
The Chairman. You do not think he was eligible?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir.
The Chairman. Are there any other white men that you know of
who belong to that organization, in that way ?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir; I do not think there is any white man on
the face < -f the earth that will ever know it.
The Chairman. You think you are the only white man who ever
belonged to that ?
Mr. Bentley. If there is any other, I do not know of him. I have
no knowledge of it.
The Chairman. Did that relationship, you think, prompt these
Indians to bring their funds to you and ask you to take care of it for
them ?
Mr. Bentley. No; they are neither distrustful of me nor I of them.
We are supposed to be in one with each other.
Representative Burke. You mentioned the name of Roman
Galan. Where did he live ?
1636 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Bentley. Roman Galan is a Mexican living at Muzquiz, in
Coahuila.
Representative Burke. Did you at any time while in Washington
representing these Indians have some of the stationery and letter-
heads of this man, Roman Galan ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; I did.
Representative Burke. Were you in the habit of writing letters
on that stationery and mailing them to Mexico and then having them
signed by some Indian and mailed from there to the Indian Office,
with reference to matters that concerned Indians ?
Mr. Bentley. In a way.
Representative Burke. In a way? Did you, or not ?
Mr. Bentley. I do not know any other way to answer you. If I
answer your (Question and say ''Yes," I will be admitting something
I did not do; if I say "No, " I would not be warranted in saying that.
I do not Icnow how to answer, except to explain what I did. I am
willing to tell you exactly what I did.
Representative Burke. Tell us what you did.
Mr. Bentley. If a letter came here from some Indian who did not
understand English, written in a way that looked like it would not
be intelligible to some person not familiar with the subject, I have
prepared a letter along the lines that an Indian would write a letter
if he came in fomewhere and dictated it, and sent it down there for
signature and to be returned here.
Representative Burke. Returned to whom?
Mr. Bentley. To the person to whom it was addressed.
Representative Burke. And to whom were they addressed?
Mr. Bentley. Well, such letters as those to Chester Howe, of this
city, who was the attorney, in a way, of the Kickapoos. He looked
up various matters for them.
Representative Burke. Were not some of those letters addressed
to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs or the Secretary of the Interior?
Mr. Bentley. They may have been; I will not be certain. I do
not recall positively as to that; they may have been.
Representative Burke. Did you or did you not write such a letter,
or cause such a letter to be written, here in Washington, in the office
of Chester Howe, or elsewhere, upon this stationery, and date the
letter back, and you yourself sign the name of an Indian to it, anel had
it mailed to the Inelian ?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir; I do not think I ever did anything of the
kind.
Representative Burke. Did you ever write letters for Indians here
in Washington and mail them to Mexico, and those letters were then
mailed from there?
Mr. Bentley. I rewrote them, putting them in such shape as had
proper application to the thing the Indian wanted.
Representative Burke. When that letter was remailed to the
department, did it contain the original lett(^r written by the Indian ?
Mr. Bentley. Oh, certainly not.
Representative Burke. W(>re these Indians who carried on corre-
spondences with the Indian Office able to write themselves?
Mr. Bentley. No, down there in Muzquiz they have typewriters
do it.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1687
Representative Burke. They would get somebody else to write
the letter?
Mr. Bentley. It would be, of course, ktiv/ou to the Indian OiRce
that the Indian did not prepare the letter hims(»lf in any event.
Representative Burke. You thought you could improve on the
letter, and therefore you rewrote it and sent it down to Mexico and
had it mailed up here; is that the way you did?
Mr. Bentley. I did it because I could set out the object and make
it more intelligible to the department.
Representative Burke. If the Indian in Mexico wrote a letter to
the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and mailed it to the commissioner,
then how did you have information as to what was in that letter, so
that you could improve on the form of the letter and re\vi'ite it and
have the Indian sign it and mail it up here ?
Mr. Bentley. An Indian would write me a letter, or perhaps wi-ite
Howe a letter, wanting something looked up or something done about
his money, what ever it may have been. Then a letter, in proper
form, addressed to the commissioner or the officer, whoever it prop-
erly might have been, was prepared and sent to him.
Representative Burke. How did you get that stationery that
you had?
Mr. Bentley. I either got it when ] was in Muzquiz, or wrote down
and had it sent up.
Representative Burke. Did you not wi-ite?
Mr. Bentley. That I will not be certain of. I may have brought
it with me. The Indians' testimony will be found where they state
they signed the letter. I have in mind particularly where Noten
said a letter was received by him and signed by him and his mother,
and they got their money. His testimony was taken.
Representative Burke. Who delivered to you the Shaffer affi-
davit that you have had read into the record ?
Mr. Bentley. It seems to me that Mr. Field handed me that affi-
davit.
Representative Burke. And Mr. Field handed you the other
ailidavit of tiie vice consul, which was also read into the record?
Mr. Bentley. I feel quite certain he brought it.
Repre -tentative Burke. At any rate he delivered them to you,
no matter how lie got them ?
Mr. Bentley. 1 wiU not say he delivered them both to me. Tiie
Shaffer affidavit may have come to me m cave of Mr. Field's office.
I will not be certain as to that, but I think Mr. Field Iianded them
to me.
Representative Burke. Do you n(*t, flunk he handed both of them
to you, as a matter of fact?
Mr. Bentley. I can not remember, i would not say positively
Wiiether he did or not.
Represejitative Burke. Earlier in tfie evenhig I asked you a
question, whether there wa'^ any money expended in coiuiection
witli the legislation that resulted in the. restrictions behig removed
from the seven allotments, and you stated there was not. Now, you
stated the oiher evening there was considerable money expended
after the legislation in trying to get the Secretary <jf tiip Interior to
issue those patents.
35601— PT 13—14 6
1638 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Bentley. Well, we spent SI, 500.
Representative Burke. And that money was accounted for in
this statement that you testified to, was it not?
Mr. Bentley. Do you mean the statement
Representative Burke (mterposing). The statement that Senator
Robmson interrogated you about the other evening contained various
items for attorney's fees in connection with proceedings that were
mstituted to try and compel the issuance of those patents ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; I think that $1,500 in there was expended
in an effort to get the Secretary to issue those patents.
Representative Burke. Why was it that in your statement it did
not appear that you had paid some of these Indians at the time you
took those deeds the sums of money that you testify to-night you
did pay — $300 in one case ?
Mr. Bentley. That had nothing to do with the issuance of the
patents.
Representative Burke. It had to do with the fund, did it not?
So you will understand it, after the legislation you immediately had
these Indians meet you somewhere ?
Mr. Bentley. Sure.
Representative Burke. And they executed deeds ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes.
Representative Burke. And you paid to those Indians various
sums of money, as you have testified ?
IVIr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. A little later you paid out in expenses here
in Washington and perhaps elsewhere for service of attorneys and
others in trying to get the Secretary of the Interior to do what that
act of Congress directed him to do and issue the patents ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes; I did.
Representative Burke. And you charged up that money in this
statement that you testified; but why did you not put in the moneys
you had paid those Indians ?
Mr. Bentley. Why, because — we took the land in trust, to be sold
for the Indians, and made them such advances as their immediate
necessities required, and the Indians got that money and had the
benefi-t of it. That would have no pro])er place in this.
Representative Burke. The moneys you were paying tliose at-
torneys you were advancing ?
Mr. Bentley. That is a ditt'erent proposition.
Representative Burke. It aU had to do witli the same proposition ?
Mr. Bentley. It was different entnely. The Indian had deeded
Iiis land to me in trust, and I was to make payments to liim, and con-
tinued to pay liim until I paid several thousand dollars to them.
That had nothing to do mtli the expense of getting tlie patents; that I
would not be a proper charge in that account in any way.
Representative Burke. Tlie money paid for getting tlie deeds
would not be a proper account, altJiough you assumed to account for
the moneys that you had received? .A
Mr. Bentley. I do not understand you. w
Representative Burke. In your testimony the other night you
went on in detail and testified how mucJi money you received — i
$32,000
Mr. Bentley (interposing). Oh, no.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1639
Representative Burke. And $3,000, 1 tliink, for another gentleman.
Ml'. Bentley. You are mistaken. I never testified I got $32,000.
Representative Burke. You said to-night, $20,000
Mr. Bentley. I tliiiik about $20,000 of it was paid. But the sum
of money I paid those Indians when they made the deeds, and the
sum of money I paid to get the department to follow the law and
issue the patents are two separate and totally different ])ropositions,
entirely. One has nothing to do with the other, absolutely.
Representative Stephens. How long had these affidavits that you
presented to-night been in your possession ?
Mr. Bentley. They had been among my papers some little time.
I got a letter from John A. Bonnet, in which he said he was preparing
an affidavit and would forward it soon. I think I have that letter
over at the office.
Representative Stephens. How did you get the Shafter affidavit?
Mr. Bentley. I think I got that at Mr. Field's office, or received
it through his office up there.
Representative Stephens. The other affidavit — I beUeve you pre-
sen.ted three here?
Mr. Bentley. The Gostin aflfidavit, I think, was among some
papers that Mr. Field handed me; that is my recollection.
Representative Stephens. Are either orie of those affidavits in the
evidence taken before the Senate Committee?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir — no; those are all new.
Representative Stephens. This is the first time these have ever
been presented ?
Mr. Bentley. This is new testimony.
Representative Stephens. You know of the facts and matters
stated in those affidavits?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Are they true or false ?
Mr. Bentley. They are true to the best of my knowledge and be-
lief. All of them set out the transactions and conditions at the time
that they refer to.
Representative Stephens. Are those transactions and conditions
mentioned in the printed documents and evidence taken by this
Senate investigating committee at Muzcjuiz and on the border of
Texas ?
Mr. Bentley. The report of the committee to Congress sustains
all the things alleged in these affidavits; the report of the American
consul himself sustains the statement that these Federal officers
came to cooperate with somebody else that robbed the Indians.
Representative Stephens. Who are the men he mentions as hav-
ing come down from Oldahoma for the purpose of getting these In-
dians' lands ?
Mr. Bentley. There were three of them — the men who came to
rob the Indians ?
Representative Stephens. Yes.
Ml'. Bentley. He had reference to Grimes-Chapman-Conine com-
bination, I tliink. There were some five or six of them. They are
the men that the investigating committee of the Senate found had
been brutal and criminal in the treatment of the Kickapoos.
Representative Stephens. Is it a fact that they did, in t)rder to
get hold of these lands, have those Indians thrown in jail?
1640 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Bentley. They had them held in jail 14 days. They were
arrested some distance from camp, dragged them up in the mud and
held them in jail 14 days, and there were 14 of them.
Representative Stephens. Did they get deeds to the land ?
Mr. Bentley. The day the headmen of the tribe were brought in
irons from the Federal prison to the home of the judge in the suburbs,
where these forgeries were committed, it appears the others were
assembled and brought there, when these were brought down in irons,
so that it w^ould frighten them.
Representative Stephens. What about the Government official
who went down there ?
Mr. Bentley. He was responsible for them being in, and he was
under the pay of the United States — George A. Outcelt, assistant
United States attorney.
Representative Stephens. What report was made by this investi-
gating committee with reference to his actions in the matter ?
Mr. Bentley. The language, or nearly so, is this: That his appear-
ance there — unfortunate appearance there — materially aided the rob-
bers. That is the report of the committee.
Representative Stephens. What was said with reference to your
connections in this matter?
Mr. Bentley. The report to Congress of that committee is that,
while I had handled large sums of money, I was found to be honest,
and I had ever been diligent in protecting the Kickapoo Indians.
Representative Stephens. Who were the men who made this re-
port?
Mr. Bentley. Senator Teller is chairman, and Senator Curtis and
Senator La Follette.
Representative Stephens. How long were they investigating this
matter ?
Mr. Bentley. It covered a period, I think, of nearly three months.
Representative Stephens. WTiat years ?
Mr. Bentley. That was in 1907 and 1908. They began, I think,
in December, coming to the border of Mexico at Eagle Pass, Tex.,
and from there westward to Douglas, Ariz.; and then they came to
Shawnee, Okla., and from there to Washington.
Representative Stephens. They took evidence in all these places?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Were ever any of these parties who
were interested in trying to get these lands away from the Indians
indicted in Texas for any crime ; if so, what and where ?
Mr. Bentley. In connection with the forgery of the names of the
Kickapoos to deeds and the alleged payments, they were indicted
140 times by count against Grimes, Conine, Chapman, and Brown
and some Mexican who cooperated with them. These indictments
were returned in Maverick County, Tex.
Representative Stephens. Were the cases ever brought to trial ?
Mr. Bentley. No, sir; the governor of the State of Oklahoma
would not surrender these parties to the governor of Texas, and
Texas was unable to apprehend them.
Representative Stephens. Did the governor of Texas make
demand on the governor of Oklahoma ?
Mr. Bentley. Twice. The governor of Texas sent an agent to
Oklahoma for them.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1641
Representative Stephens. Have they ever been brought to trial
for those crimes ?
Mr. Bentlet. No, sir; those indictments, through some agreement
with the Federal Government, or at the request — I believe when the
lands had been returned to the Indians the indictments were dis-
missed, is my information.
Representative Stephens. Then these deeds that were forced from
the Indians in this manner were put on record in Oklahoma?
Ml'. Bentley. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. And suit afterwards brought and those
deeds set aside ?
]VIr. Bentley. Suits were brought in the Federal courts and dis-
trict courts of Oklahoma — several cases were brought. The Federal
courts held the deeds invalid, but what resulted in the return of the
lands to the Indiand and the accounting for the rents and profits
while these parties had them were : These parties, after being indicted
in Texas, and Texas being unable to get them, they were then in-
dicted in Mexico, and, of course, when the agent of Mexico came to
Oklahoma for them, that was a matter between the United States and
Mexico, and then it was that they were imprisoned in the Federal
prison at Guthrie. After remaining ther some nine weeks and Mexico
being in a state of war, they proposed, or a compromise was made,
and they deeded back the land.
Representative Stephens. To whom?
Mr. Bentley. To the Indians, and accounted for the rents and
profits durmg the time that they had had them.
Representative Stephens. What mterest did 3^ou have in pro-
tecting the Indians and enabling them to get the land back ?
Mr. Bentley. From the day I came out of prison and landed in
Texas, up to the time that the lands were turned loose, I was in some
way actively engaged in either the criminal prosecution of the parties
or in the same way or manne-r endeavoring to get the lands returned.
I was in Washington frequently, and tiiree Assistant Attorney Gen-
erals of the United States were from first to last appointed, and I
cooperated with them, and I had three times large numbers of Indians
before the grand juries of Texas; co\ermg a period from 1906 to
1909 I was continually on the move of some kind, and remained so
until tlie time that Kearful came to Shawnee, Okla., and held a
conference with me, and was there several days, and at hi^ suggestion
a little difi^erent policy was pursued, after he came in. Mr. Kearful
said that certain officers of the Government were persistent in the
theory eternally that this was a fight between Grimes and I over the
lands, and that he believed I could be more useful, in view of the
peculiar situation, to aid him rather in a quiet w^ay than in the open —
than in the way I had worked theretofore, and Kearful impressed me
as being a very able man, and was inclmed to follow my suggestions
and follow out the policy I had formulated to ultimately force them
to let go these lands, and I very readily acquiesced in that idea.
Representative Stephens. Was it a matter of compromise then,
when they turned the lands back ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; purely a matter of compromise.
Representative Stephens. Did the Indians then get the lands after
this compromise was effected ?
1642 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Bentley. Every allottee's land, my recollection i~, was deeded
back. There was complaint, of course, that these parties who had
forged their names should not have been paid for the improvements
they put upon the land after they had taken it in that way. In some
cases it was shown they had actually paid money. It was agreed by
the Government that the lands and profits of the lands should go to
those men until that sum should be paid out. But when that settle-
ment was made I was not present. Mr. Kearful and the United
States attorne}" for Oklahoma and certain Government oflicials made
those arrangements. I had nothing to do with that feature of it.
The Chairman. That is all, Mr. Bentley.
TESTIMOlfY OF MR. FRANK A. THACKERY.
The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.
The Chairman. You have already made a statement before the
Committee on Indian Affairs concerning this Kickapoo matter?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You did not, in that statement, go into your dis-
position of the fund you received as trustee for the Oklahoma Kicka-
poos?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir.
The Chairman. It is about that that I particularly want to ask
you to-night. You received how much as that trustee ?
Mr. Thackery. $100,851.06.
The Chairman. Was that the proportionate part of the $215,000,
after the $28,000 fee that was paid to Mr. Bentley was taken out,
that went to the Oklahoma Kickapoos?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; 82 in number; 82 out of 157.
The Chairman. How long had you been connected with the
Kickapoo Indians in Oklahoma?
Mr. Thackery. How long had I been-at that time ? I took charge
there on the 1st day of October, 1901. That was 1908.
The Chairman. It had been about seven years, then?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Something over seven years ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What did you do with this fund that you so
received ?
Mr. Thackery. I endeavored to take it up officially under bond
in order that I might better control or have authority over its ex-
penditure. But the Comptroller of the Treasury held that I could
not be made to account for it officially, under the act appropriating
the money, and I therefore held it indi\'idually, and later I took up
part of it as guardian.
I expended it — in the first place, I paid it to them by check; had
every check read to the order of the Indian entitled to receive it.
As far as I could I sought to have it expended in the improvement of
their Oklahoma homes. I built somewhere between 1 1 and 20 houses
on different allotments. We bought a large number of stock and
wagons, conveyances, and such things as that. They paid up what
debts they owed, which was quite considerable, and it cost them
about — in the neighborhood of $7,000 to attend the council provided
under this act. They had to go from Oklahoma to Mexico and back.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1643
The Chairman. How was this fund paid over to you ?
Mr. Thackery. It was paid by one warrant from the Treasury of
the United States.
The Chairman. Paid to your order?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What did you do with it?
Ml". Thackery. I indorsed it and cashed it, and deposited the
money to my credit as trustee.
The Chairman. In what bank?
Mr. Thackery. The most of it was m the Shawnee National Bank.
I checked it, I think, all thi'ough that bank, but for short period-
while I had a considerable amount of it I had smaller amounts scats
tered in one or two other banks — the Oklahoma National and the
State National, and possibly another one. I am not sure about that.
The Chairman. What was your object in handling it that way?
Mr. Thackery. Well, -no particular object, other than to divide it
up between the banks. I checked it, as I say, on the one bank, and
when the account ran down I transferred from the other banks to
the Shawnee National, on which I was checking.
The Chairman. Have you an itemized statement of the fund
and the disbursements of it up to date ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. I have not an itemized statement, but
I have my book showing the account of each Indian.
The Chairman. Did you open an account with each individual
Indian of the 82 ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you take receipts for all sums that you ex-
pended ?
Mr. Thackery. I paid it by check to them, to their order. The
check itself is the receipt. I have practically all of the canceled
cliecks.
The Chairman. Has your account ever been gone over by any
ofTicer ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir.
The Chairman. Wliat amount of funds have you now on hand ?
Mr. Thackery. I do not know exactly, but $300 or .'«;400.
The Chairman. It is all paid out but S300 or $400 ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I believe you stat<^d that you first sought to take
up the money with a bond ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And you were not permitt'xl to make a bond, or
not required to make a bond ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir.
The Chairman. You took up the fund then without any security
whatever ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What was your personal financial condition at
that time ?
Mr. Thackery. Wliy, I was wortli about $6,000, I guess.
The Chairman. Did you call the attention of the Treasury officials
to that matter ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I did not.
1644 KI0KAP(30 INDIANS.
The Chairman. Wliom did you take up the question with of
making a bond ?
Mr. Thackery. At the Indian Office, with several people there.
I remember paiticularly the then Chief of the Education Division,
Mr. Dortch.
The Chairman. Wliy did you not take it up with the commissioner
himself ?
Mr. Thackery. I think I did, but I will not be positive. I dis-
cussed it with four or five there in authority. The commissioner,
I know, preferred that I give a bond, and it was after discussion
with him, either by myself or by the men with whom I had dis-
cussed it in the office, that we prepared a bond, and I believed
I signed it and sent it in for approval; and then it was that, pending
a decision of the comptroller because of the peculiar and rather unusual
wording of the act it was a question whether under the act I could
be required to account for it. His decision was that I could not,
and nothing more was said about the bond.
The Chairman. The Comptroller of the Treasury held that under
that act of 1908 no accounting whatever was required, and therefore
no bond was required of you as disbursing officer ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. I have here an authenticated copy of
his decision, which I keep in this book [handing paper to chairman].
The Chairman. You occupy the same legal relationship to the fund
which you received for the Oklahoma Indians as Mr. Bentley did for
the Mexican Kickapoos ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. He held that under the act of 1908 you and Mr.
Bentley became collecting agents for the Indians, and were not
required to give any bond for the funds that were paid to you ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Let that go m the record.
(The decision referred to is as follows:)
Appeal No. 15286.]
Treasury Department,
Office of Comptroller op the Treasltry,
June S, 1908.
The Auditor for the Interior Department, on .lune 4, 1908, by certificate No. 5393,
made a settlement in favor of —
0-ke-mah and Martin J. Bentley for $86, 273. 94
To Martin J. Bentley 26, 875. 00
To Frank A. Thackery 101, 851. 06
Under and in pursuance of the following act of Congi-ess, approved April 30, 1908:
"That there be, and hereby is, appropriated, out of any money in the Treasury
not otherwise appropriated, the sum of two hundred and fifteen thousand dollars,
for the fulfillment of certain treaty obligations to the Mexican Kickapoo Indians for
differences arising out of the stipulations of article four of the treaty of June twenty-
eighth, eighteen hundred and sixty-two, and for all other differences growdng out of
any and all treaties and agreements heretofore made between said Indians and the
United States. Said sum of two hundred and fifteen thousand dollars shall be paid
by the Secretary of the Treasury as authorized and directed by a majority of the
members of said Mexican Kickapoo Tribe in council assembled. Such council shall
be composed of a majority of those surviving members of said tribe, male and female,
heretofore allotted in Oklahoma. The authorization above mentioned and the pro-
ceedings of said council shall be attested by a clerk of the United States district
court of the Territory of Arizona. Said sum shall be immediately available and the
indorsement of the warrant issued in payment thereof shall be deemed and shall be
a receipt in full for all claims of every kind whatsoever of the said Mexican Kickapoo
Indians against the United States."
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1645
The Mexican Kickapoo Indians in cuuiu-il assembled on the San Bernardino
ranch, Arizona, on the 19th day of ilarch, 1908, adopted a resolution in regard to the
payment by the Secretary of the Treasury of said sum of $215,000, as in said resolution
set out, and which resolution reads:
"Be it resolved, That the Secretary of the Treasury be, and he hereby is, authorized
and directed in making payment to the Mexican Kickapoo Indians of the sum of two
hundred and fifteen thousand ($215,000) dollars pursuant to said act of Congress to
issue the warrant in payment of said sum to 0-ke-mah, of Bavispie, Mexico, Martin
J. Bentley, and Frank A. Thackery, of Shawnee, Oklahoma; and the said persons
are hereby authorized and empowered to receive the said warrant and receipt for and
endorse the same for and on behalf of said Mexican Kickapoo Indians."
It appears from the reports on file in this case and by the certificates of the clerk
of the district court of the second district, Arizona Territory, that a majority of the
members of said Mexican Kickapoo Tribe, in council assembled on the 19th day of
May, 1908, said council being composed of a majority of those surviving members of
said tribe, male and female, heretofore allotted in Oklahoma, directed and author-
ized the payment of said sum of $215,000, as in said auditor's settlement set out, and
to the persons therein named, and to the amounts therein specified. A question has
arisen under the terms of said act and the authority granted by the said Indians in
council, whether the persons- so authorized to receive said appropriation by said
Indians m council as aforesaid should be required to give bond and account to the
Treasury Department for the proceeds of said appropriation coming into their hands
on warrants herein above mentioned .
The Frank A. Thackery named in said settlement and warrant, and one of the per-
sons so authorized by said Indians to receive said warrant, is superintendent and
special disbursing agent for the Indian Training School, Shawnee, Okla , and now
under bond as such agent in the sum of $40,000. The Secretaiv of the Treasury,
I because of said question being raised on the 6th day of June, 1908, 'has directed me to
review the said settlement of the auditor before the warrants have been issued and
1 paid thereon with a view to determining whether the persotis so directed to receive
! the proceeds of said settlements and warrants are trustees for the Indians, or should
give bonds for the faithful discharge of their duties as such, and account to the United
States for said moneys paid out on said warrants.
_ I have no hesitancy in answering each of said questions in the negative. While
it IS true that Indian agents are responsible to the United States under their bonds
for all moneys that may come into their hands, under the law, and are trustees there-
I for, yet it is only for such Indian moneys as the United States places in their hands
I as the agents of the United States to carry out some trust obligation of the United
States owing to the Indians. These moneys are not placed in the hands of the per-
sons designated by these Indians under the act. supra, as the agents of the United
States to carry out a trust obligation of the United States with" these Indians, but
the appropriation is paid to them by the United States as the collecting agents of
these Indians, under the sanction and authority of specific law, and when "so paid
to them, such payment is full and complete acquittance to the United States of the
obligation of debt recognized in said act to the Indians, and all other monetary obli-
gations which the United States may owe to these Indians.
I am therefore of opinion tliat no bond should be required of the persons selected
/ u ■^^'^^^"^ ^s aforesaid on account of their collection of this appropriation, and
that they should not be required to account to the Treasurv for the proceeds of these
warrants.
Respectfully,
R. J. Trace WELL,
Comptrolle7\
i The Chairman. Have you prepared an itemized statement for the
irecord of your account ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I have the book here from which I could
prepare it. There are 82 accounts. I would be glad to prepare one.
The Chairman. I wish you would do so, and prepare to explain the
disbursements that you have made.
I Mr. Thackery. Would you like an individual account of each one,
or the total ?
j The Chairman. I would like an itemized statement of the account,
j30 that I may ask you about it if there is anvthing alwut it that I do
'Hot understand.
1646 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
(In response to the foregoing request the witness subsequently sub-
mitted the following statement:)
[Not submitted.]
Senator Lane. Is that your original book of entry ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Is this the only book you kept ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Wliile we are discussing this point I wish you
would explain how you kept this account.
Mr. Thackery. After the council in Arizona I came here to Wash-
ington and received this warrant. Then I returned to Oklahoma and
had a council of the Oklahoma division of these Kickapoos. They
wanted to divide this fun.d with five other Kickapoos; five other full-
blood Indians who had resided with them for a long while. They
wanted these five to share equally with them, or nearly all of them
did. I took down those council proceedings I now refer to, and it is
a part of that book account in v/hich they agreed for these five to
share in the $101,000.
I then drew checlvs, according to the agreement of these 82 allottees,
prorating the timount that each of the 82 was to give to the five home-
less India,ns, in order that they might share equally. I did that in
order to relieve myg^lf. I drew checks payable to their order and let
them then indorse these checks over to the account of these other
five homeless Ir.dians. The amount divided up between the 82 was
$1,198.25 in some cases and $1,198.24 in other cases.
Then I drew checks to defray the expense of their trip to Douglas,
Ariz., to attend this council. At the tim.e they had to go to this
council many of them had no funds and they borrowed from others
w]io did have funds; and so the account there will show that the two
first checks in almost every account was $75 and $71 and some cents.
The $75 represented the cost of one persoji from Sliawnee, Okla., to
Douglas, Ariz., and on out to the camps some 20 or 30 miles by
team, and back to Oklahoma. The $71 and som^e cents represented
the amount that each one was giving to these five homeless Indians,
which was also taken up ard accounted for in the same manner as
this.
Now, the balance I used the best I could. I had them use it the
best I could, with what little authority over it I had, in the improve-
ment of their home conditions — their farms.
The Chairman. How did you determine what Indians were entitled
to share in this fund ?
Mr. Thackery. The act itseh said that it was to go to the Kickapoo
aUottees, or words to that effect — those formerly allotted in Okla-
homa, of which I had 82. There w^as 157 living at the time of this act,
and of that 157 I had 82 and I believe Mr. Bentley had 75.
The Chairman. All of them had been allotted ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; all these 157 were allottees.
The Chairman. You had a list of them, ditl you ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; an allotment roll.
The Chairman. And knew who was entitled to share in this
distribution ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1647
The Chairman. How did you determine when you would pay an
Indian his part of this fund ?
Mr. Thackery, Well, there was no established method of deter-
mining. He would come and ask for funds for a particular purpose,
and if I thought it was right I would give him a check for it. If I
thought it was improper, I would try to talk him out of it. Had I
held it officially, I could have used more authority over him. In many
cases I was compelled to pay it and run the almost sure probability
of having a suit filed on me individually for the land.
The Chairman. When you paid one Indian something, difl you
make a distribution to other Indians, or just pay it to them as you
tliought they needed it?
Mr. Thackery. Just as I thought they needed it.
The Chairman. Did you pay everything by check?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; except in one case. There is one lone
case where I paid a small amount, I think about SI 61, to an Indian
for his medical care and clothing, and one thing and another, when he
was about dead with tuberculosis.
The Chairman. Could these Indians write?
Mr. Thackery. Some of them.
The Chairman. How would you determine when an Indian had
cashed his check, or whether he had or not? How would you know
about that? Did you issue checks to the individual Indians, or did
you give them to some one else ?
Mr. Thackery. They were issued to the Indians themselves, to
their order, making it necessary for them to mdorse the check. And
many of their cliecks were witnessed by some person knowing the
Indians.
The Chairman. Did you have any fixed way of handlmg that so
as to laiow whether an Indian had in fact indorsed his check — an
Indian that could not write and v/hose signature, if he could write,
you did not know?
Mr. Thackery. Of course, those that could write, we Avould know
their indorsement on the clieck as soon as the bank matle its state-
ment. As to the others, there was no fixed plan of determining this
question you raise.
The Chairman. Did you know of an}^ cases where you gave checks
to the Intlians on this fund where the checks were cashed by white
men or others-for less than the actual amount of the check ?
Mr. Thackery. There was no such case ever came to me. I ha-1
not heard of it.
The Chairman. I will state to you that in some conununilies
that has been quite a common practice in dealing with the Intlians.
I wondered whether you ha<^l ever encountered anything of the sort.
^Ir. Thackery. Many of our checks would be handled this way :
Suppose the Indian wanted to buy a team. I would let liim go and
look up the team. He would liave the seller bring it to the agency
headquarters and we would examine the team. If we found the team
all right, and the price satisfactory, we would issue a check payable
to the order of the Indian and help him to put the proper indorsement
on it, ^nd then he M^ould turn it over to the person from whom he
had bought the horse.
The Chairman. You knew of the transaction itself as well as the
way the check was made ?
1648 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Thackery. Yes. Some of them, however, were given to
them, and they took them themselves and cashed them at the banks.
The Chairman. Now, in the disbursement of this fund, did you
pay every one of these 82 Indians the same amount ?
Mr. Thackery. They got $1,198.24 or 25 cents, in order to make
the ('listribution come out even.
The Chairman. And after paying that amount you still have
about $300 of the common fund undisbursed ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, something like that ; I do not know the exact
amount. I sent for my last bank statement, but I did not get it.
It is all the same, excepting these five that are marked "homeless."
They are the five whom the other people took in. This, you see, is
not the same [indicating], but the amount represented here is accounted
for in this.
(The witness here exhibited to the commission the account book
referred to, and explained certain entries therein.)
Mr. Thackery. Practically all of the 82 signed that agreement, but
when you get over toward the back you will find two or three that
agreed to all except one, so the amounts were a little different.
The Chairman. Is this an original document, representing the
actual signatures ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Tlie Chairman. Who signed those names where the Indians signed
by mark ?
Mr. Thackery. Those were signed by myself. This is my writing.
The Chairman. You signed the names that are signed by mark ?
Mr. Thackery. Some of them I did. They were witnessed by
persons attending the council.
The Chairman. That was all done there in the council, was it, Mr.
Thackery ?
Mr. Thackery. All of the first ones were done in the council, and
some of these who declined to sign came into the office a day or two
later and signed to take care of two or three of the five. Practically
all of them were signed at the council.
The Chairman. What did you do about that as to those who did
not sign for all ?
Mr. Thackery. There were no disbursements made until tliis was
all signed.
The Chairman. Some of them did not agree.
Mr. Thackery. They all agreed, but some did not agree to dividing
up with aU of the five homeless Indians.
The Chairman. I understand. How did you handle that?
Mr. Thackery. It shows here [indicating]. "I agree to the above
excepting the payment of $330 to Pe-ah-mah-ske."
The Chairman. Did you go ahead and pay them?
Mr. Thackery. Oh, no; if you turn to their accounts you will
find that their check is less.
The Chairman. That is what I wanted to know. So your effort
was, as to those homeless Indians, to carry out the wishes of the
Indians themselves as expressed in this agreement ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. It was carried out just that way.
Senator Townsend. lias there been any complaint about that
settlement ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I have not had any.
KIOKAPOO INDIANS. 1649
The Chairman. I have not heard of any.
Representative Burke. Was there any interest ever paid on these
deposits ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; there was interest paid at first, when it
was first deposited in the bank, about $098; and then later I took
it all up in every case where I was guardian of these adult Indians.
You know, they were mostly adults, and I had been appointed
guardian, and the guardian accounts then drew interest.
The Chairman. What did you get for your services in handling this
account ?
Mr. Thackery. I used some of that interest that I speak of — $698.
The Chairman. You say you used it.
Mr. Thackery. I appropriated it to my own use. I paid some
expenses whicli I coukl not take care of as Government expenses
and the rest I used myself. Then when it was put in as a guardian
account — you will notice that a good many of these [indicating] have
a check drawn to me as guardian. The interest on all those guardian
accounts went to the person for whom I was guardian.
The Chairman. Now, how much did you receive in all for your
services as trustee in handling this fund of $101,000 ?
Mr. Thackery. Well, it was less than $698. The exact amount I
do not know. I would have to look it up.
The Chairman. That includes the interest item that you speak of?
Mr. Thackery. Y^es, sir.
The Chairman. How long a period did that accounting rmi over,
Mr. Thackery ?
Mr. Thackery. About two and a half or three years. Of course,
I was receiving a salary as superintendent during that time.
The Chairman. You say that that appropriation was to the Kick-
apoo allottees ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Are you certain of that ?
Mr. Thackery. Well, it is certainly implied by the act itself.
The Chairman. I know, but what does the act say ?
Mr. Thackery. I think I had better refer to it [reading]:
That there be, and hereby is, appropriated, out of any money in the Treasury not
otherwise appropriated, the sum of $215,000 for the fulfillment of certain treaty obliga-
tions to the Mexican Kickapoo Indians for differences arising out of the stipulations
of article four of the treaty of June twenty-eighth, eighteen hundred and sixty-two,
and for all other differences growing out of any and all treaties and agreements here-
tofore made between said Indians and the United States. Said sum of $215,000 shall
be paid by the Secretary of the Treasury as authorized and directed by a majority
of the members of said Mexican Kickapoo Tribe in council assembled.
The Chairman. Now, that says ''Kickapoo Indians." How many
Kickapoo Indians are there in Oklahoma, or were there then ?
Mr. Thackery. Counting children and all ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Thackery. I could not tell you, but there is, I should say,
over 100.
The Chairman. How did you reach the conclusion that the fund
should be paid to the allottees only?
Mr. Thackery. Because further down it provides:
Said sum of $215,000 shall be paid by the Secretary of the Treasury as authorized
and directed by a majority of the members of said Mexican Kickapoo Tribe in council
1650 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
assembled. Such council shall be compcised I'f a raajurity of those surviving members
of said tribe, male and female, heretofore allotted in Okiahoma.
In other words, it was put into their hands to say how it should
come to them. It was left with them. First, in a council where both
factions were together they said I should receive the part belonging
to Oklahoma Indians. Then the Oklahoma Indians met in council—
which is described in this proceeding to which I have called your
attention in my account book — and further directed how theirs
should.be paid. So that while it was not paid direct to children of
these allottees it did go to the parents and the children necessarily
benefited; and more than that, it went to the parents by direction
of the tribe who were given authority by this act to say how it should
be paid.
The Chairman. How did you keep your accounts with those banks;
or did you let the banks keep the account?
Mr. Thackery. They rendered a statement.
The Chairman. How did you know what funds you had in the
respective banks? Did you keep it in this book?
i\ir. Thackery. I kept only the account of the Shawnee National
Bank on which I checked in this particular book. I have the bank
statements of the other banks. They held it only a short time.
Practically the whole amount is in the Shawnee National Bank,
Shawnee, Okla.
The Chairman. Have you those bank books that contain those
accounts ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I have not. I wdred as soon as I came for
everything pertaining to this matter.
The Chairman. What interest did the banks allow you on those
deposits ?
Mr. Thackery. I do not remember. It was an open account, and
I think it was either 3 or 4 per cent for a short-time deposit. Later
when it was taken up and accounted for as guardian it was more.
Senator Townsend. What was it then ?
Mr. Thackery. I think it was 5, but I would not be positive. [To
Supt. Buntin.] What do you get?
Mr. Buntin. Four per cent.
Mr. Thackery. Under a bond ?
Mr. Buntin. On daily balances; yes.
Mr. Thackery. And the bank, in addition to its ordinary security
as a bank, gives an additional surety company bond ?
Mr. Buntin. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you undertake to see how the Indians spent
this money when you paid it to them. ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; I did everything that I could, under
existing conditions, to have it judiciously spent.
The Chairman. There was nothing in the law requiring you to do
that?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir.
The Chairman. So far as the act itself goes, you could have paid
the entire amount to each Indian at once without regard to what dis-
position he might make of it?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Were those Indians, in fact, competent. Mi'.
Thackery ?
I
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1651
Ml". Thackery. No, sir; I would not call any of them competent to
judiciously spend that amount of money — the total amount due each
one, I mean.
The Chairman. How did you determine what payment ought to
be made to an Indian ?
Mr. Thackery. By an acquaintance \vith the Indian himself for a
number of years as his superintendent, and by knowang what his
allotment needed in the way of improvements, and what proper
debts he had that should be paid, or what he needed in the way of
stock or farming implements.
The Chairman. How many of them used this fund in making
improvements on their allotments?
Mr. Thackery. I have marked on that book 20 who used it par-
tially, at least, for houses. Of that number I am sure that 11 built
new houses, costing from S800 down to — the least I recall was a S300
house. Others bought wire and put up sheds, and in one or two cases,
I believe, a well was dug.
The Chairman. Are you famiUar with the condition of these
Indians now, Mr. Thackery ?
Mr. Thackery. I have not seen them for about two j^-ears.
The Chairman. Wliat was their condition when you left them?
What per cent of them or what number of them could farm success-
fully?
Mr. Thackery. If you mean by successful farming the standard of
a white farmer, there was not very many of them that were farming
successfully. They had been farming for a number of years — well, I
would say from 5 to 15 or 20, and some few a 40-acre tract of land
each year.
The Chairman. How is that ?
Ml*. Thackery. They had been farming all the time I was there,
and before that and since that, from 5 to 40 acres each, a number of
them; I would say 25 to 30 of the men.
The Chairman. How long were you superintendent of that agency ?
Mr. Thackery. From October 1, 1901 to
Mr. BuNTiN. June 15, 1911 ?
Mr. Thackery. June 15, 1911.
Tlie Chairman. Nearly 10 years then?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What do you say with reference as to whether
they were forward or backward in their ordinaiy affairs of life ?
Mr. Thackery. I think they were forward. However, they did
not go forward as much as they would have gone had it not been for
this agitation. There was agitation there during most of the time I
was superintendent, and that interfered.
The Chairman. How many of them were actually farming when
you left them ?
Mr. Thackery. I do not know accurately, but I should say there
was — of these 82 allottees tliere would be at least half that number of
men. I should say that at least 25 of them had farms and were cul-
tivating small tracts.
The Chairman. Were you a stockliolder in the bank at Shawnee ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I was not.
The Chairman. Did you owti any stock at all ?
1652 KIOKAPOO INDIANS.
1
Mr. Thackery. No; not there. I owned a little bank stock with
a cousin of mine at a little town a distance away, but I had no
ofiicial deposit in it.
The Chairman. You distributed this fund, amounting to $101,000,
among the allottees on the theory that the children of the allottees
were not entitled to share in the distiibution?
Mr. Thackery. On the theory, at least, that under the law the
Indians had directed the manner in which I should spend it, thinking
they had a right under the law to say how it should bo spent, and
also thmking that their children, who might have a right under some
other theory of the law, were cared for by the parents usmg the money
in their behalf.
The Chairman. To what mcmbei-s of the tribe were the allotments
originally made ? Do you know ?
Representative Burke. Who were they ?
Mr. Thackery. All of them— men, women, and children. There
was an enrollment made, and every Kickapoo was supposed to receive
80 acres at the time the allotments were made, 1894.
The Chairman. Now, you closed a number of these accounts with
these individual Indians by charging the balance off to yourself as
guardian ?
Mi\ Thackery. Yes, sir. i •, i
The Chairman. Do you know in how many cases you did that ?
Mr. Thackery. I did it in every case where I was guardian. I
not only did that, but I accounted for the whole amount m my
guardian accounts, under bond, to the court. In other words, my
guardian account shows the total amount — the $1,198.25.
Senator Lane. Is the guardian account in this book?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; the guardian account is filed with the
courts in three different counties in Oklahoma.
The Chairman. Have your accounts all been approved, Mr.
Thackery ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Have you copies of those accounts as guardian i
Mr. I'hackery. The copies are on file at the Indian agent's office (
at Shawnee.
The Chairman. How much of tliis fund is still in your hands as i
guardian of these respective Indians ?
Mr. Thackery. None whatever; I have turned it over to my suc-
cessor— Supt. Buntin.
The Chairman. You have settled all those accounts ?
Mr. I'hackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What was the object in closing these accounts by
checking out to yourself as guardian? I did not quite understand
what the purpose of that was. i o i.
Mr. Thackery. I did that under advice of the United States
attorney.
The Chairman. Who was he?
Mr. Thackery. John Embry. You see, I had been appointed lor
all those adult Indians, not ynth. the idea of taking their funds over
and handling them as guardian, but the idea of, through this appoint-
ment as guardian, making it impossible for any land speculators to
take them from Oklahoma to Mexico, make them nonresidents, and
get deeds under this 1906 act. I took them before the court, the
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1658
adult Indians and asked the court to examine them and enter a
decree as tovvhether he found them competent or incompeteat He
foutid them incompetent and appointed me as their euardian— adults
mind you. '
The Chairman. And your object in doing that was to~
Mr. Thackery. To make it im])()ssible for peoj)lo to make them
nonresidents, to take them to Mexico and make them nonresidents
under the act of 1906, and then take deeds to their land as non-
residejits. I as guardian, a]ul the court having found them incom-
petents, would put It m a condition where they could not get a good
The Chairman. The act of 1906 apparently removing the restric-
tions. It an Indian who was then resident in Oklahoma had been
induced to go to Mexico he could have deeded his property away
I but lor the fact that he had l)een declared incompetent by a court
I there and you had been appointed guardian?
j Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
j The Chairman. And was that your object?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. And after I had proceeded with those
disi)ursements of this money for several months the United States
attorney suggested that in veiw of the fact that I had been appohited
guardian and was receiving this money for these people, even though
they were incompetents, and I had not originally expected to handle
.their func s, m order to have it straight I had better account for
those funds as guardian, which I did.
I 7^^^;9i"^i«M^N. Well, did you take any deeds to any of the prop-
jerty ol the Indians for whom you were acting as guardian or trustee «
, Mr I hackery No, sir; except in the final settlement. Mr
Bentley and Mr Ives and the Chapman-Grimes people, prior to the
decision of the Federal court annulling this act, quitclaimed back to
me whatever title they may have acquired under the 1906 act Thev
did that under mstruction or advice from the United States at-
torney
The Chairman. To what land «
• ^^-^ Chairman. Were those the aUotments of Indians still resid-
ing m Oldahoma that were deeded back to you, or aUotments of
Indians who had gone to Mexico ?
Mr. Thackery. Mostly in Mexico, but a few of them in Oklahoma
/is soon as the court rendered its decision that this 1906 act did not
make It possible for them to convey \vithout the approval of the
becretary, then I quitclaimed back to the Government, I think, in
trust for the Indians, so that the title was then in its original stite.
I I he Chairman. Did you sell any lands that were conveyed to
jTOu, or did you undertake to sell them?
j Mr. Thackery. No, sir-well, I sold one of the aUotments from
jvnich the restrictions were removed under the 1905 act-one of the
Tr* u!i. <^he settlement that was quitclaimed to me as trustee.
. did seU that, and I have a part of the fund and a mortgage on the
and tor the balance in that particular case. The part of the fund
, nave and the unpaid notes })ear 7 per cent interest
i Senator Lane. Are you stiU acting as guardian in that case?
35601 — PT 13 — 14 7
1654 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Thackery. As trustee, not as guardian, in that case.
The Chairman. What was the consideration of that deed?
Mr. Thackery. $2,650.
The Chairman. What amount of that have you still on hand?
Mr. Thackery. I have received one payment of $560, I think — a
thousand of it, anyway. But of that amount I have, I should say,
about $415 or $420 m the Salt River Valley Bank in Mesa, Ariz.
For the balance I have notes bearing 7 per cent interest, secured by a
mortgage on the land.
Senator Lane. How long have those notes been running?
Mr. Thackery. I should sa}" about a year; possibly not quite a
year — 9 months or a year.
Senator Lane. You made this sale about a year ago? .
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. \
Senator Lane. Were you. on the reserve at the time?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir.
Senator Lane. You were still guardian for them and had moved^
somewhere else ?
Mr. Thackery. No; not guardian; I was trustee for this one
allottee only. l
Senator Lane. How did it happen that you remamed trustee whea]
you were not there any longer ?
Mr. Thackery. I did it by dhection of the Interior Department.,
This was a case where the title — the restrictions had been actualm
removed. It was one of the seven. Had it been in the same class ais*
the 1906 act I would have reconveyed and the Government would
have held it in trust; but as it was the title was naturally vested in
the Indian, and it was necessary for me to hold it as trustee. The
Indian lives in Mexico, in Sonora, and has a son where the superin-
tendent resides. I am willing to turn it over. I would be very glad,
to get rid of it.
The Chairman. You were superintendent of that agency when you
were made trustee ? i
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sh.
The Chairman. You objected to the moving of the Indians to
Mexico ?
Mr. Thackery. I advised the Indians against it, because I did not
have any faith in the proposition.
The Chairman. Did you go down to Mexico at any time when
those parties were trying to get deeds from the Indians for the Okla-
homa allotments ?
Mr. Thackery. I was in Mexico when the act of June 21, 1906, was
passed. This was in Eagle Pass, Tex.
The Chairman. What were you doing there?
Mr. Thackery. I had been sent down to assist the assistant United
States attorney in procuring evidence with relation to the deeds taken
on the seven allotments under the act of March 3, 1905, in the hope
that those deeds, which we then believed to be improper, might be
set aside and the rights of the Indians protected. While we were
there this other act became a law.
The Chairman. Did you un<lortake to get deeds or induce Indians
to make deeds to any of their lands ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I did not.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1655
The Chairmax. Did you have any part in the aUeged attempts to
despoil them that we have heard so much about ^
Mr. Thackery. Xone whatever.
The Chairman. Did you know of that being dcme? What do vou
know about it ?
Mi-. Thackery. I was in Eagle Pass part of the tml<^ and most of
these alleged frauds were committed some 70 to 100 miles away in
Mexico— some 70 miles or 100 mihs distant from Ea^rl^ Pass ' in
Mexico. I knew very little peisonally of these transactions— almost
nothing, but when I first reached Muzquiz a bunch of these Oklahoma
men were there waiting for this bill, then pending, to become a law.
A the time I firs visited Muzquiz the Bentley faction was appa-
rently m control of the situation. They seemed to have the good will
and cooperation of tlie Mexican officials, and I did not like the looks
ot that situation. And it was not more than a matter of two or three
weeks until he had been dethroned and the other fellows were in con-
trol. I advised the department fully of the whole condition, and
urged particularly that the whole Indian bill, if necessary, should b^
vetoed. j^
The Chairman. Plow did you advise that ?
Mr. Thackery. By wire and by letter. There f.re 1.5 or 20 letters
and more than that number of telegrams in the record
: The Chairman. Were all of them put in the record by the com-
I mittee «
Mr. Thackery. I won't be sure that all of them were, but many of
them are there. They are scattered through the record If tley
^^Si n ^ consecutively they would show clearly what I did
TTr rr,^*^^^*^^^'- ^^^^^ you copies of all that correspondence ^
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you want to put it in the record «
Mr. Thackery. I should be very glad to.
The Chairman. You may furnish them to the stenographer if
vou please Furnish copies of the communications you had at tliat
time, and furnish them in chronological order.
(The correspondence subsequently submitted by tlie witness in
response to the foregoing request is as follows:)
Office of the United States Attorney,
District of Oklahoma,
Hon. Frank A. Thackery, ^'''^''"^ ^^^"■'' -" '''^-
Superintendent and Special Disbursing Agent,
Shavnee, Okla.
TT^f^^c^^"' ™^ °^^^ ^■- ^^ receipt of a letter from the Attorney General of the
^ ena ion m-'ffi "'^'''^' '"' '^""i f^'"]'''''' "^ «"^ Tenitoiy, the restrk-tion. upo^
,11 lenation ot ^duch were removed by the act of Conaress approved March 3. 1905
UveAi^t'r^ ^T'""^ directs me to assign an assistant attormn- to make a thorough
C exSw ," ,?': 'f ft ^"^ •' ''''^' "*■ ''^'''" ■'^"^•^^ ■''''^'' ■'' ■^"^^>- »^« fo"»d propter
hio.d?l d t •" P'o/f ^th« I'^dians, or to prosecute Mr. Bentley if the investigations
^orv n ntfT- ^"^^ ^'^, ^'^S ^o™™J»ed an offense against the United States, the Terri-
'vt?ort? CcnZl'l'lh'''' ff%''\^^^^^- In compliance with the instructions of he
nvn • \- ^ ^ ^^^'"^ fletailed Assistant Attorney George A. Outcelt to make the
ni,esligation, on account of his experience with Imlian affairs
Tpv 'y!T"vf' ^'.^^"^''^1 suggests that tlie assistant attorney should go to Eagle Pass
iofcxico V, hT""' ^"^V*™""^' ^^^ Kickapoo Indians Bentley induced to remove
■lavprn.! /^ • ^T"""'''',''" r",^'""^ personally acquainted with these Indians, and
uve made a trip or two to the locality wlioro they arc located, 1 think it of the utmost
1656 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
importance that yoii accompany Mr. Oiitcelt on this trip, and asfsiot him in securing
the statements of the Indians. You should take with you an interpreter upon whose
honesty you can rely, to the end that every statement you obtain may be relied
upon. It will also be necessary to secure in Mexico some person who can speak the
Spanish language to assist you. The honorable Secretary of the Interior, in his letter
transmitting the papers in this case to the Department of Justice, states that the De-
partment of the Interior will render all of the assistance possible in this investigation,
and I am quite sure that if you will advise your department that you have been re-
quested by me to accompany Mr. Outcelt and assist in the investigation, and that it
will be necessary to have the interpreters suggested above, you will be instructed
to go with Mr. Outcelt and to employ such interpreters as you will find necessary.
I trust you will take tliis matter up with the honorable Commissioner of Indian
Affairs at once, to the end that an early investigation may be made.
Very respectfully,
J. W. SCOTHOEN,
United States Attorney.
United States Indian Agency,
Shawnee, Okla., April 21, 1906.
The Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. C.
Sir: I have the honor to inclose herewith a letter just received from Hon. John W*
Scothorn, United States attorney for Oklahoma, which refers to the matter of Mr.
Bentley's connection with the removal of the Mexican Kickapoo Indians of this agency
to Mexico. He desires that I be authorized to accompany his assistant United States
attorney and to employ an Indian interpreter from here to go with us to Mexico, and
to employ a Spanish.interpreter after reaching Mexico. I can get an Indian interpreter
for $2.50 per day and his expenses, but for a Spanish interpreter I should be authorized
to pay $4 per day and his expenses. In order to properly investigate the matter of
any proposed title to land claimed by Mr. Bentley on behalf of the Kickapoos, I should
be authorized to go to such places in Mexico as found necessary.
In this connection I would respectfully refer to your letter dated January 19, 1906,
directing that I withhold all money due the Mexican Kickapoo Indians residing in
Mexico. It is probable that we would find the Kickapoo in a condition not conducive
to our getting much evidence from them unless this order as to paying them their
money might be temporarily suspended and I be authorized to pay them the lease
money or monthly allowance of inherited Indian land money now due them from this
office. It might be found advisable not to make any payment, but it would seem
proper that I be given some discretion in the matter, so that we could better meet
conditions as we find them upon our arrival there.
I think it is advisable that the United States consul (and such other representa-
tives of the United States as you may suggest who might be able to aid in the case)
be requested, through the proper channels, to give us every possible assistance in
getting at the fat-ts of this whole matter. I would ask that this matter be made spe-
cial, since it is important that as much evidence as possible be secured wliile Mr.
Bentley is still in Washington, for with his presence with the Indians in Mexico it
would be very difficult to get anything out of the Kickapoo Indians. If it is thought
advisable that I go with the assistant United States attorney I should be wired to
that effect, so that preparations can be started at once.
Very respectfully,
Frank A. Thackery,
Superintendent and Special Disbursing Agent.
Department ok the Interior,
Washington, May 7, 1906.
The Commissioner op Indian Affairs.
Sir: In compliance with your recommendation of the 3d instant, authority is
hereby granted the superintendent of the Shawnee Indian School, Oklahoma, to pro-
ceed to such points in the Republic of Mexico as may be necessary to assist Mr. George
A. Outcelt in making an investigation for the Department of Justice in relation to
the connection of M. J. Bentley with the transfer of certain Kickapoo allotments;
also to employ one Indian interpreter at not to exceed $2.50 per day and one Spanish
interpreter at not to exceed $4 per day; also to pay the traveling and other neces-
sary expenses incuiTed by himself or on behalf of the interpreters employed and to
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1657
expend for these purposes not to exceed ?500, payable " Continsrencies, Indian De-
partment, 1906," which yon state will not be exceeded if these expenditures are
authorized.
Authority is also granted said superintendent to make such payments of lease
money or inherited-land money to Indian allottees or their heirs in Mexico as he may
think advisable from funds due them and now on deposit to the superintendent's
official credit as individual Indian moneys.
The inclosures of your letter are herewith returned .
Very respectfully,
E. A. Hitchcock,
Secretary.
[Telegram.]
Shawnee, Okla., May 18, 1906.
Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. C:
About 20 Kickapoo Indians were deceived into secretly leaving for Mexico yester-
day, the object evidently being to make them nonresidents and get deeds for their
allotments under supposed legislation by this Congress.
Thackery, Superintendent.
[Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service.)
United States Indian Agency,
Shawnee, Okla., May 18, 1906.
The Commissioner of Indian .\ffairs,
Washington, D. C.
Sir: In confirmation of my telegram of even date, which reads as follows:
"Commissioner op Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C:
"About 20 Kickapoo Indians were deceived into secretly leaving for Mexico yes-
terday, the object ex-idently being to make them nonresidents and get deeds for their
allotments under supposed legislation by this Congress " —
I have the honor to state that this matter was reported to us this morning by a dele-
gation of Kickapoo Indians, who are very much aggrieved and discouraged over
the matter.
l'>om their report to me it is learned that one Louis C. Grimes, of Harrah, Okla.,
assisted by Cal Moore, also of Harrah. Okla., visited all the Indians residing in the
locality of the towns of Harrah and McT.oud, Okla., on the 16th and 17th instant
and advised them that there was to be a big payment in Mexico in the near future
and that I had directed that these Indians go at once to be present at this payment.
A great deal has been published in the papers of late with reference to the removal
of restrictions from the Kickapoo allotments of this agency, and also of the amend-
ment to the Indian bill providing for payment of certain moneys to the Kickapoos.
These Kickapoos were evidently led to believe that the Indian appropriation bill
had passed and. as a ( onse(iuence, the payment would be made in the near future.
There are still about 60 members of the Kickapoo Tribe residing at this plate and
every effort is now being made to have them removed to Mexico, it being the general
supposition that the restrictions udll be removed from their allotments in the very
near future.
This matter is referred to you for your information in connecti.iu with the proposed
legislation with reference to these Kickapoos and with the further view of asking your
adWce as to any possible means of protecting these Indians.
I have about exhausted my persuasive resources in endeavoring to persuade these
Indians not to desert their valuable allotments at this agency, as well as not to be
deceived into sf hemes of their designing neighbors.
Very respectfully,
Frank A. Thackery,
Superintendent and SpccinI Disbursing Agent.
1658 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
[Telegriuri.]
MuzQuiz, Mexico, May 29, 1906.
Commissioner Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. C:
We find no title of record for Kickapoo Indians for land in Mexico, notwithstanding
Bentley's statement before Senate committee.
F. A. Thackery, Superintendent.
[Telegram.]
Eagle Pass, Tex., June 1, 1906.
Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. C:
Mexican authorities at Muzquiz refuse to recognize Outcelt and myself as Oja'a
representatives of the United States until they receive proper directions from Mexican
Government. We visited Kickapoo camp May 30, and were ordered away by police-
men, who were acting under written direction of chief politico of Muzquiz munici-
pality. Later we interviewed said oflicial and there had his order interpreted, finding
that in reality it places Bentley in full control of the land upon which Kickapoos
reside, with several policemen at Bentley's command. We find eight Oklahoma men
at Muzquiz to buy Kickapoo land, in case restrictions are removed. Bentley's
evident object in securing official order mentioned above is, first, to prevent our
investigation, and, second, to make it impossible for an outsider to purchase Kickapoo
lands, excepting through Bentley.
It is further reported with apparent truthfulness that the vice American consul is
to go to Muzquiz to take acknowledgments to deeds for Bentley. If restrictions are
removed this should be prevented, thus making it necessary for Indians to go to Eagle
Pass to acknowledge deeds where there would be competition for their lands. It is
evident that Mexican laws have been violated in dealings with Kickapoos, and
Outcelt and myself urge that authority be granted to expend not exceeding $500 in
employing Mexican attorney to prosecute violations of Mexican laws in dealing with
Kickapoos. This action would better open up the case for prosecution in United
States. Collector of Customs Dowe could render us valuable assistance if he couki be
authorized to go with us. He is well acquainted in Mexico and understands their
laws and ways. Wire me whether to wait (here) or elsewhere for further orders.
Thackery, Superintendent.
United States Customs Service,
Port of Eagle Pass. Tex., Mne 2, 1906.
The Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
Washington, 1). C.
Sir: I have the honor to refer to my telegram of yesterday with reference to the
Mexican officials refusing to recognize Mr. Outcelt and myself as representatives of the
United States until they received proper directions fr;jm the Mexican Government and
to explain the rpatter further as follows:
We left Shawnee on May 21, arriving here on the 23d of May. Upon our arrival
here we called upnn (JuUector of ('ustums R. W. Dsiwe, who luis been exceedingly
kind and helpful to us in our work. He advised us of the difficulties he has had with
Mr. W. A. B(mnett, president of the Border National Bank of this place, in the way of
smuggling diamonds and other valuable articles across from Mexico in order to avoid
paying duty. Mr. Dowe has other apparently conclusive evidence against Mr. Bon-
nett along the .same line, which is not mentioned in the copy of his letter which I
mailed you a few days ago. Mr. Bonnett's connection with this snniggling a^jpears to
date back several years and is believed to have been quite extensive.
That there is an improper connection with this Mr. Bonnett and his father, J. A.
Bonnett, vice coii.'^ul at this place, on one .'^ide and Mr. Bentley on tlie other, I have but
little doubt. The general re])Ulation of these two men (Mr. Bonnett and his son)
here where they have lived for many years is not very good. It is evident, then, that
any mon(^ys due the Indians of this locality should be paid to them through some other
source than the Border Nationiil Bank, as is, or was, originally specified in the Indian
bill now pending before Congress. As suggested in my telegram, it was arrangi'd by
Mr. Bentley for the ^'ice consul, J. A. Bonnett, to go with Bentley to the Indian camp
near Muzciuiz, Mexico, for the purpose of taking the ackTiowledgments to deeds in the
I
I
KIOKAPOO INDIANS. 1659
event that the restriction^; are removed fr.an the Kickapoo and other allt'tniente.
This should be taken up with tlie State Department w-ith the view of having Mr.
Bonnett directed not to take the acknowledi^niciits t > these deeds.
Before leaving: Eagle Pass, an<l by the assistance of Mr. Dowe, we secured letters of
introduction from the Mexican federal judge of the Muzquiz district to the authorities
at Monclova and Muzquiz, Mexico. Monclova is the town where all deeds and land
transactions are recorded for the whole district wherein the Indians propose to pur-
chase lands and reside. We went from here to Monclova, and after the authorities
there had made a careful search of the records (three daji^'search^ the official in charge
of the land office gave us a certificate showing that nothing had been recorded in his
olfice showing title of any description to any lands in his district, either in the name of
Mr. Bentley or of the Indians. We then proceeded to Muz(iuiz. and on the morning
of May 30 called at the office of the highest official of that locality. He was not there,
so we left our card and went out to the Kickapoo camp, about J 2 miles distant, not
having met the official. We reached the Indian camp about 3 o'clock p. m., and
found the Indians mostly all dancing. We did not bother them, nor even talk to-
them more tlian to greet those who spoke to us. or to answer the few questions asked
of us. With the exception of John Mine and his brother, Wah pe che quah, the Indians
seemed pleased to see us, inviting us to stop at their camp and eat with them.
In a few moments after reaching the camp we joined some other white men where
they were fishing in the Sabinas River near by. We returned to the Indian camp
about dark and found Wah pe che quah waiting for us. Upon approaching close to
him he adA'ised us that we must leave their camp, and that the Mexican officials had
80 directed. We advised him that we would obey the Mexican officials, but not him.
Soon after reacliing the camp the Mexican policemen (I think there were four) ap-
pci-ired and stated that they were directed by the chief politico to request us to leave
the Indian camp immediately or we would be arrested. This order included all white
men on the grounds. Henry Jones, our Indian interpreter, and a Mr. Beaty then
stated that the Mexican policemen had, a short time previously, showed them the
order, and that it was signed by Martin J. Bentley rather than by the chief politico.
We then asked the policemen to permit us to see the order, but they would not, or at
least did not, show it to us. They insisted, however, that it was from the chief politico
at Muzquiz, whereupon we agreed to leave the Indian camp and land. We went to
Muzquiz that night and called upon the chief politico the following morning. He had
an interpreter (Dr. Long) read us his order in English. The order, as interpreted to us,
amounted to the placing of Mr. Bentley in full control of the land where the Indians
are located, with several policemen at Bentley's command. No person, therefore,
can see or talk to one of the Indians unless he do so through Mr. Bentley or take the
risk of being arrested by the Mexican jjolicemen.
It is AX'r\' evident that Mr. Bentley's ■ol)iect is to prevent our investigation, and to
make it impossible for the other white men who are there to buy laud to deal with
the Indians excepting thmugh him. We found eight Oklahoma men at Miizciuiz
for the purpose of buying Kickapoo lamls in the eA'ent of the removal of the restric-
tions. These eight men represent many other men in Ok!ahf>ma who have sent the
cash here to pay the Indians for their lands. While they expect to get it cheap, I
am convinced that they will ])ay three or four times the amount that Mr. Bentley
exi^ects to ])ay them. A further part of Mr. Bentley's scheme seems to be. as referred
to liefore, to have the American vice-consil, J. A. I'onnett, go to this land where Mr;
Bentley has the Indians so completely under his control, to take their acknowledge-
ments to deeds, thus avoiding a jxissibility of Mr. Bentley I'ot being able to purchase
every Kickapoo allotment in Oklahoma. If Mr. Bonnett is j^revented from ,going
over there to take these acknowledgements, then the Indians must coiue to Eagle
Pass to acknowledge these deeds, and whenever they get into our country there will
he sharp coin])etition for the purchase of their lands. This competition seems to
be exactly what Mr. Beniley wants to avoid. Since telegraphing you ye.'^terday
Mr. Do\ve informs me that Vice-ConsuI Bonnett called at his ofhce last evening and
8])()ke of the lientley-Kickapdo ca.sc, stating that Bentley wanted him (the vice-con-
sul) to go to Muzciuiz to t,ake the acknowledgements to the Kickapoo deeds. Mr.
P<onnett wanted Mr. Dowe's advice in the matter, and Mr. Dowe urged him to have
notliing wlialexer to do with the acknowledgments t,o the deeds even if Mr. Bentley
and the Indians called upon him at his post of duty, which is just across the river in
Mexico from this town (Eagle Pass). Mr. Bcmnett promised, or gave Mr. Dowe to
understand, that he would have nothing further to do with the matter.
In my telegram of yesterday I urged that authority be granted to employ a Mexican
attorney to prosecute violations of Mexican laws in this Kickajioo case. Both Mr;
Outcelt and Mr. Dowe concur with me in this plan. It seems very essential in order
to get a proper start for prosecution in the Ignited States. It is furtlier advisable as a
1660 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
means of i>rotectioii to both the United States and Mexico, because I am convinced
that unless some decisive steps are taken (assummg that the restrictions will be re-
moved from the Kickapoo and other Indian lands) to protect the rights of these Indiana
under the laws of both the United States and Mexico they are going to lose everything
they have in the United States without acquirmg anything in Mexico. They will
then be paupers on the hands of either the United States or Mexico. The question
for our country to decide at this time seems to me to be which country is to be bur-
dened with them as such paupers. It seems to me that the United States should now,
before it is too late, have such an understanding with Mexico as will definitely settle
this point.
If these Indians are to lose all that we have given them in our country, we do not
want Mexico to call upon us to take these Indians back to the United States as she
has already done once about 35 or 40 years ago. If they are to settle in Mexico as her
citizens, it should be to the interest of Mexico to see that they acquire a proper title
to some land upon which to live and work out their subsistence. The United States
should have an equal interest in their getting a proper title to land in Mexico, in order
that they may not drift back upon us penniless. Again, it is my opinion that the men
who are back of this scheme of removing Indians from the United States to Mexico
fully expect to make it a wholesale business, covering as many tribes of Indians as
they can persuade into their trap. I urge, therefore, that the part of the United States
in this matter be thorough. We should have the fullest support possible in the way
of authorities, and any assistance that your office can secure for us through the Treasury
Department or through the State Department with the Mexican oflicials should be
given at once.
Mr. Dowe states that he would willingly go with us into Mexico and assist us, if
authorized to do so by his department. He has been in this country many years,
and has a large acquaintance with both Mexicans and United States officials of this
locality. He speaks Spanish, and is well acquainted with Mexican laws and ways.
He would be of great assistance to us further, as his whole heart seems to be bent on
the exposure of crookedness and the purification of political and Government matters
generally.
Very respectfully, .Jl
Frank A. Thackery, IB
Superintendent and Special Disbursing Agent.
[Telegram.]
Eagle Pass, Tex., June 2, 1906.
Commissioner Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C:
Message just received from Outcelt, at Muzquiz, as follows:
"Murdock and three other Indians arrested. Murdock was put to work on street
as soon as Bentley learned he was employed as our interpreter. Bentley made a
speech at camp last night, in which he stated that he would have every Indian sent
to jail who did not deed him their land. Field is here. Wire department full par-
ticidars.
"Outcelt."
Authority should be granted at once to employ Mexican attorney and assistant of
Mexican officials secured at earliest possible date.
Thackery, Superintendent.
Eagle Pass, Tex., via Diaz, June 2, 1906.
George Outcei,t, Muzquiz:
Do not pay any debts of Indians at present. Letter follows:
[seal.] Thackery.
Muzquiz, Jinie 2, 1906.
Frank A. Th/u.-kkry, Eagle Pass, Tex.:
Arrested MunJock and three other Indians. Murdock was put to work on street
as soon as Bentley learned he was employed as an interpreter. Bentley made a
speech at camp last niglit in which he stated that he would have every Indian sent
to jail wIk) lid not deed him their land. Field is here. Wire department full
particulars
[.seal] Outcelt.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1661
Eagle Pass, Tex., via Diaz, June ^, 1906.
UuTCELT, Muzqun:
Your message forwarded to Washington. I am ordered to wait further instructions
here. Do all that you can to get Murdock out
[SEAL.] Thackery.
[Telegram.]
Eagle Pass, Tex., June 3, 1906.
Commissioner Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C:
Have just had a long consultation with most eminent and reliable Mexican attorney
of northern Mexico. After fully understanding the whole Kickapoo matter this
attorney urges that Outcelt and myself take delegation of five Indians to Mexico City
and lay whole matter before President Diaz, asking Diaz to send a Government
commission to Muzquiz immediately, with full authority to act in this whole matter
because of apparent connection of Bentley with local officials at Muzquiz The
above plan is the only proper solution of the difficulty. Mexican attorney here is
certain that Diaz will promptly comply with joint request from Indians and our
Government. This will bring whole matter fairly before Mexican Government.
Uurbtate officials should be directed to arrange matters for us in Mexico City. Should
Indian bill pass with provisions for payment of money or for removal of restrictions
the President should be urged not to sign bill at least until proposed Mexican Gov-
ernment commission reaches Muzqtiiz
Thackery, Superintendent.
Eagle Pass, Tex., June 4, 1906.
Dear George: Have not received any further instructions yet from department
Kussell Johnston did not send your message to Mr. Scothorn until he reached here
and turned It over to me to send. I took the liberty of adding a little to it in order to
have bcothorn better understand matters here and with mv recommendation'- to
Interior Department. The message I sent read as follows:
Scothorn, Guthrie, Olcla.:
Bentley interfering with our work every way possible. Arrested interpreter to-dav
Claims to have been sent here by Government. Best Mexican attorneys urge that
we visit Mexico City with small delegation of Indians and lay whole matter before
Diaz, requesting that he appoint a commission to go to Muzquiz immediately and
take up whole matter under Mexican laws. Thackery has made similar request to
Interior Department. This would open up matters for prosecution in the United
States.
Outcelt, Assistant Attorney.
On Sunday morning I had a conversation of several hours with Mexican district
attorney for this part of northern Mexico. He requested that our conversation be
strictly confidential; but after fully understanding whole situation at .Muzqui/ he
said not to employ an attorney, but to keep whole matter strictly to ourselves and
shp out a few (five, say) of most reliable Indians who have been residing at Muzquiz
for some time and take them immediately to see Diaz, asking him to send a commis-
sion to take full control (for Mexican Government) of whole Kickapoo situation at
Muzquiz. The district attorney is very sure that Diaz will readilv respond to this
request when he understands the whole situation.
No person but you and I should know of this plan for the present. In the mean-
time you should get as many of the Indians up here to Eagle Pass as possible bv work-
ing Avith those other white fellows at Muzquiz.
Grimes would be your best helj) in getting the Indians out. The district attorney
8ugge.^ted that they take the train at Sabinas rather on the quiet. The one man should
be there to get them on the train and one up here and that the others should remain at
Muzquiz ignorant of the whole matter. All proper debt will be paid at Muzquiz, but
^.y he desire to have them properly investigated by this commission before thev are
paid, lie very careful what you do. I think that a good delegation to take to Mexico
i'lty would be Pah po ah she (the man who drove us in from Indian camp). Ah ne-
Tk i"^^ "*^,' ^^^^'^^ Murdock (now here), Chah ko sot. and either Ah ten v tuck or*
Aft kis kuck. We would have to take either Mack Johnston or Thos. Alford as inter-
preter—preferably the latter. As stated before, it is of particular importance that
no one know of this trip until our mission is accomplished, for it would just give them
achance to better fortify themselves. i- - j ^
Sincerely,
Thackery, Superintendent.
1662 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
ITelegram.]
Eagle Pass, Tex., June ',, 1906.
Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C.:
Vice-Consul Bonnett has declined to go to Muz(iiiiz to acknowledge deeds, but
has arranged for Consular Agent M. O. Harsh, of Sierramojada, Mexico, to go in his
place.
Thackery, Superintt'iident.
ITelegram.]
Eagle Pass, Tex., June 5, 1906.
CoM.MissiONER OF INDIAN Apfairs, Washinr/ton, D. C:
Reliable Indian informs me to-day that Bentley now has all roads to Indian camp
guarded and wilh assistance of Mexican policemen no person is allowed to enter or
leave Indian camp, except by Bentley's permission. I sincerely hope in behalf of
Indians that resti'icticjns will not be rem(>ved and no money paid Indians at present.
TfiACKERY, Superintendent.
Eagle Pass, Tex., via Diaz, June 5, 1906.
George Outcelt, Muzquu:
Forward my mail hci'e; ex])ect definite instructions soon.
[seal.] Thackery.
ITelegram.]
Eagle Pass, Tex., June 6, 1906. -
Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Wa^liinglon, D. C:
U Indian bill passes removing restrictions from Indian tribes named therein as
affiliating with Kieka])oos Bentley and associates exjject to remove said ti-ibes to
Mexico as soon as possible, and ahead}' have their jjlans well arranged to accomplish
this work. The allotments of all of said tribes are valuable for farms, and Cherokee
Shawnee allotments are especially valuable for oil. I again urge that President be
asked to veto Indian bill if neces.sary to prevent consummation of this scheme.
Thackery, Superintendent.
C. Porfirio Diaz, via Diaz, June 7, 1906.
George Outcelt, Hotel Central, Muzquiz:
Wire me immediately if everybody is all right. If not, give particulars.
[seal.] Thackery.
Muzquiz, June 7, 1906.
Frank A. Thackery, '''. /'. Diaz.
Yes. Authorities weakening. Boys go to camp to-night.
[kealI Outcelt.
~ i
Dei'Artment of the Interior,
Washington, June 11, 1906.
.Tlie Chair.man o.f the Committee on Indian Affairs,
United States Senate.
Sir: Referring to department letter of June 7, 1900, in connection with amendment
No. 136 to the Indian appropriatino bill, H. R. 15331, calling attention to certain tele-
grams received from Superintendent Thackery, in charge of the Kickapoo Indians^
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1663
wherein the hope was expressed that the restrictions relatinc; to the sale of Kickupoo
lands will not be removed and that no money be paid said Indians at present, I have
the honor to tran>-init herewith a copy of a report from tlie Acting Commissioner of
Indian Affairs, dated the 8th instant, t|uolin2 a further telesrram from Superintendent
Thackery, gi^'in.^■ additional reasons why, in his judgment, the restrictions on tlie sale
of Kickapoo lands should not be removed.
Very respectfully, E. A. Hitchcock,
Sefretnrii.
Eagle Pals, Tex., via Diaz, June 12, 1906.
&E0RC5E OUTCELT, Muzqvi!:
To-day"s paper reports taat Senate accepted conference report on Indian bill.
[seal.] Thackery. Supermtendent.
United States Customs Service,
Port of Eagle Pass, Tex., June 15, 1906.
The Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. C.
Sir: I have been shown a copy of your letter of recent date to the honorable Sec-
retary of the Interior,' having reference to the Bentley-Kickapoo matter, and in which
you refer in part to the connection of Mr. J. A. Bonnett, vice American consul, in said
matter. In order that the fullest information may be had in this matter when it is
taken up, I have the honor to make the following suggestions for your further consider-
ation in the case: First, I would state that I have no definite knowledge of the report
made by Supervisor Charles H. Dickson relative to the connection of Mr. Bonnett in
the Bentley matter, but I do know that Mr. Bonnett has told various persons, to wit:
R. W. Dowe, collector of customs this place; Russell Johnson, assistant cashier of the
State National Bank, of Shawnee, Okla., and Doc Beaty, a saloon man of Oklahoma
City, Okla., and others, that the report of Supervisor Dickson was false from begin-
ning to end, or something to this effect.
Mr. Bonnett has exerted an undue influence in this Bentley matter against both
Mr. Dickson and myself, and it must follow that such influence was also against the
best interests of the Interior Department that we represented. From the best informa-
tion I can get Mr. Martin, the consul at this place, is not at fault in the matter. He
has the confidence and good will of the people of this locality and is generally believed
to be an honest and conscientious official. Mr. Bonnett, the vice consul, on the other
hand, does not bear this general good reputation. That Mr. Bonnett has made
improper statements, and thus done his part in creating a wrong impression in this
locality and in Mexico, as to the position of the Interior Department in its actions
relative to this Indian matter is evident. That he has likewise made improper state-
ments about Mr. Dickson and myself, without knowing or even attempting to ascertain
from disinterested persons or from anyone other than Mr. Bentley or his confederates
the real facts or the truthfulness of the statements he made, is also evident.
Whether or not Mr. 15 nnett acted within his pr. per nfficiul capacity when he went
to Muzquiz, Mexico, list year during the Dicks m investigaticm and there interested
himself in behalf of Mr. Bentley I do n ^t know. But as an official of the United States
Government, as was als > Mr. Dickson, it seems to me that Mr. B nnett might have
tiken the time to hive thr.ughly understood the position of the Interior Department
bef' re rendering the as.sistance he did render ti Mr. Bentley. In doing what he did
he (ifficially opposed the interests of the United States, which interests were entitled
to his assistance as against the interests of a single individual, the rction cf win in the
United States questioned as to their being pr per. It is generally known tint, foll'iw-
ing this Dickson investigatini, both Mr. Dickson and myself were sued by Mr. Bentley
in the sum of $200,000." Some time after this, in January of this year, the plaintiff
Served n itice of their intention ti take dep';siti ns in the case at E?gle Pass, Tex.,
and at Muzquiz, Mexico. Myself and J. H. "Woods (of Shawnee, Okln.. att' rney (;f
Dicks ,n and myself) appeared in persi n at the taking of depositions at Ijoth places
above named.
At Eagle Pass the dep )sitions were taken before "W. A. Bonnett (a son of J. A. Bonnett
afi.resaid ), and among the witnesses examined at Eagle Pass was Mr. J. A. Bonnett, the
vice C('nsul, who a])i)eared at the request of Mr. Bentley, and as one of his witnesses.
Later, when we went from Eagle Pass to Muzquiz, Mexico, to take further dep:,Biti( ns
in the case, it was arranged that the balance of the depositions should be taken bef* re
1664 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
J. A. Boniiett, vice consul, and I think that he (J. A. Bonnett) was appointed by the
district judge of the third judicial district of Oklahoma, in some capacity, upon the
request of plaintiff, to take the depositions in Mexico. At any rate, the depositions
were taken before Mr. Bonnett at Muzquiz, and among other witnesses to appear for the
plaintiff was the presidente of the Muzquiz municipality. When tliis witness was called
Mr. Bonnett left the room where the depositions were being taken. I thought nothing
of his lea^dng, as the taking of depositions had been temporarily suspended.
I had that day received a letter from Mr. Dickson inclosing a letter addressed to said
presidente, Math the request from Mr. Dickson that I present said letter to the presidente
and ask him to appear as a witness for Mr. Dickson and myself. When the taking of
depositions was suspended, as before stated, Mr. Woods and myself called at the office
of the presidente to present Mr. Dickson's letter, this being after the plaintiff had
announced the presidente as his next witness, and as we entered the oflice of the
presidente we found Mr. J. A. Bonnett and the presidente standing near together,
where the presidente had evidently come from his office chair to greet Mr. Bonnett.
The presidente was reading a letter that from all appearances had just been handed
him by Mr. Bonnett. Mr. Woods, Dickson, and myself were the defendants in thia
case and as such defendants we had a right to seek such evidence as would better their
case; but, if Mr. Bonnett had given the presidente this letter in question in the in-
terests of either j^laintiff or defendant, he was doing a wrongful act, both as the person
appointed to hear the evidence and as vice consul of the United States. The actions
of Mr. Bonnett in this Bentley matter from the beginning to the present time tend to
show thit this letter was given to the presidente in the interests of Mr. Bentley.
A few days ago Mr. Russell Johnson and Doc Beaty called at the office of the vice
consul (J. A. Bonnett) at Ciudad Porfirio Diaz, Mexico, they having come here from
Oklahoma for the purpose of buying a part of the Kickapoo land in Oklahoma in the
event that the restrictions were removed from said lands. These men called upon
Mr. Bonnett (having heard that he was going to Muzquiz for the purpose of taking
acknowledgments to Indian deeds) to ascertain if he would go to Muzquiz to take
acknowledgments for all persons who were there to buy land or of any particular per-
son or firm. Frova the question they first asked Mr. Bonnett he seemed to infer that
they were friendly to Mr. Bentley, and stated that it would be impossible for him to
go to Muzquiz for the reason that the consul, Mr. Martin, had gone away sick and left
him in charge of the office. Mr. Bonnett stated, however, as these men inform me,
that if Mr. Martin returned before the work at Muzquiz was done he (Bonnett) would go
to Muzquiz.
Mr. Bonnett stated that he had just written Mr. Bentley a letter at Muzquiz, stating
that he would probably not be able to go to Muzquiz, for the reason above stated,
and referring him (Bentley) to a consular agent named M. Q. Marsh, of Sierra Mojada,
Mexico, whom he advised Mr. Bentley to see and make arrangements for him to go
to Muzquiz to take the acknowledgements to the Indian deeds. He (Mr. Bonnett)
read parts of his letter to Mr. Bentley to Johnson and Beaty. I suggest that copies
of Mr. Bennett's correspondence with Mr. Bentley should be asked for, as well as the
correspondence of Mr. Bentley to Mr. Bonnett or his office. I do not want to appear
unduly active in this matter, but will state that, for my own protection, as well as the-
protection of Mr. Dickson, I will make affidavits to confirm what I have above said.
The situation at Muzquiz is unchanged from what has heretofore been reported, ex-
cepting that I am informed that the other parties at Muzquiz (for the purpose of buy-
ing land) have for the time being secured the good will and assistance of the Mexican
officials, thus turning Bentley down by installing into practice the methods originated
and started by Mr. Bentley.
Just how these arrangements are made or what is done to bring them about is a
question that Mr. Bentley and the other Oklahoma citizens, as well as the Mexican
officials, should be required to answer. It is evident that no good will come to the
Indians as the result of such arrangements. Now that it seems assured that the re-
strictions are to be removed from these Indians' land in the United States, it seems im-
portant to me that our Government should explicitly relieve itself of any further
responsibility as to any of these Indians and see to it that Mexico now understands
that if she receives these Indians now she is not to expect nor ask the United States to
take them back or care for them in the event that she (Mexico) later finds them un-
desirable.
I have the honor to be, yours, very respectfully,
Frank A. Thackery,
Superintendent and Special Disbursing Agent.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1665
[Telepram.]
Eagle Pass, Tex., June 21, 1906.
Commissioner Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. €.:
Will leave here for Muzquiz, Coahuila, Mexico, next Saturday evening at 4 o'clock.
Please wire me of final action on Indian bill, as many of the Indians wish to return
to Shawnee immediately if bill does not pass, and they want me to arrange for their
transportation. It will be a great mistake if these Indians are permitted to sell their
lands to anybody under the pending Indian bill.
Thackery, Superintendent .
W" Department of the Interior,
United States Indian Service,
Eagle Pass, Tex., June 23, 1906.
Maj. C. F. Larrabee,
Indian Office, Washington, D. C.
My Dear Sir: News reached here yesterday that President Roosevelt had signed
the Indian bill, ^\-ith the amendment removing the restrictions from the nonresident
Kickapoo and other Indian lands.
Mr. Bentley's success in getting this legislation gives him a much increased influ-
ence over the Indians interested in the matter. Assistant United States Attorney
Outcelt is investigating, as well as the citizens of Mexico who are most familiar
with his dealings with these Indians. Thus it will be difficult and probably impossible
to get testimony that would justify legal actions in behalf of the Indians direct. I
mean that, as an instance, it would not seem advisable to start any action for the
recovery of an allotment for an Indian unless the Indian himself be enough interested
in the case to start and assist in the action. ^Miile the Indians directly interested
in the "seven-allotment" legislation of last year freely admit that they received but
very little for their land and did not know that they were selling the same, yet they
do not want to be known in an action looking to the recovery of their land. It is
evident that they have been led to believe that whatever the United States does in
the matter would look to their forcible return (if necessary) to the United States to be
followed by the stealing (as they state) of their children to be placed in school. In
several instances and upon their urgent request I have started suits in the proper court
in their behalf for the recovery of money from Mr. Bentley. In each of such cases
they have later appeared at court and asked that the suits be dismissed. No doubt
that Mr. Bentley had pursuaded them to dismiss the cases, though they had faithfully
promised that if I would start the actions they would not have the cases dismissed
unless Mr. Bentley made full settlement with them, which they afterwards state he
did not do.
Up to date I have not used half of the $500 authorized in my assisting Mr. Outcelt
in this investigation. I do not know what plans, if any, the commissioner may have
as to further steps relative to the removal of United States Indians into Mexico, but
I do know that the schemes for this purpose are well and deeply laid, and that if any
steps are taken it should be as early as will be consistent. The connection (appa-
rently unmistakable) of certain Mexican oflicials with this deal should receive notice.
If it is intended to go into this matter of moving Indians to Mexico further I would
suggest that my authority to assist Mr. Outcelt be so modified as to permit me to go
over this matter with you personally. I have plenty of work to do at Shawnee and do
not wish to go to Washington unless I can be of assistance in this matter.
Very respectfully,
Frank A. Thackery,
Superintendent and Special Disbursing Agent.
[Telegram.]
United States Indian Agency,
Shaivnee, Okla., July 31, 1906.
Lewis C. Grimes, Harrah, Okla.:
I am informed that plans are being perfected to take more Kickapoo Indians to
Mexico. I have been appo nted legal guardian of the adult Kickapoo Indians in
1666 KICKAPOO IXDIAISTS.
Oklahoma by the proper court, and as such guardian give warning to all ])arlies that
these Indians be not removed.
Frank A. Thackery,
Acting United States Indian Agent.
Department of the Interior,
United States Indian Service,
United States Indian Agency,
Shawnee, Olda., August 1, 1906.
The Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. C.
Sir: I have the honor to advise you that on the 23d day of July, 1906, the probate
judge of this (Pottawatomie) county appointed me legal guardian of 44 adult mem-
bers of the Mexican Kickapoo Indians of this agency who are now residing here and
do not want to go to Mexico. Applications are now pending in Oklahoma County
for 4 more similar appointments and in Lincoln County for 10 similar appointments.
Thet;e appointments were made upon my own application after having consulted
and secured the assistance of the United States attorney for this district. All sorts
of schemes were being prefected for the removal of these Indians to Mexico in order
that the purchase of their allotments at this agency might be consummated under
the provisions of the act of Congress approved June 21, 1906. The Indians had
repeatedly appealed to me to protect them, urging that they had no desire to remove
to Mexico and wished to remain here on the land set aside for them by the United
States Government. They stated that they did not understand neither the language,
ways, nor laws of their white neighbors and that under the pro\'ision of the last Indian
bill they were convinced that the Kickapoos now remaining here would be enticed
off to Mexico, few at a time, until they would be left "paupers in the road" with no
place to call a home.
After listening to a number of their councils and being convinced that they were
in great earnest in their desire to remain on their Oklahoma allotments, I suggested
to them that under existing conditions, and taking into consideration the fact that
they were ignorant of the language, ways, and laws of the white men, that they were
full-blood Indians and did not know the value of their Oklahoma lands, it might be
that the probate judge would declare them incompetents. Asst. United States Attor-
ney ilc Knight was sent here to aiTange the matter, and after counseling with the
Indians in his presence the petitions were filed. The United States attorney's office
was held temporarily by Hon. John W. Scothorn. ^\'Ticn the probate judge of thia
county understood the conditions, he gave the move his full assistance and appointed
me in every case applied for. If the plan meets with your approval, I would be pleased
if you would address a letter to Mr. Scothorn and Judge Maben (the former at Guthrie,
Okla., and the latter at Tecumseh, Okla.), expressing your appreciation of their
services in behalf of the Indians. I assure you that the step was taken solely as a
matter of protection to the helpless and ignorant Indians, who otherwise would soon
have been led off to Mexico imder false promises of all kinds and their lands taken
ii-om them for a mere pittance. The expense of these appointments amounted to
1170.50 in Pottawatomie County, which amount I have paid from my personal funds.
These Indians are poor and have no means of reimbursing me at this time. There
was no time to refer the matter to your office before acting, as I was not aware of the
full situation here until my return from Mexico, where I had been sent to assist in an
investigation, and had I waited to refer the matter before acting it would have been ■
too late to have received my appointment prior to the removal of some of the Indians.
Kindly advise me if you have any fund from which I could be reimbursed the actual
cost of these appointments. The cost was reduced to the lowest amount possible,
the judge allowing us to appoint the members of any one family all on one applica-
tion, thus making the cost of the family the same that it would ordinarily be in a single
case. There were 31 cases in this county, at a cost of $5.50 each. I inclose herewith
my receipt for the same, which please return with your reply.
Very respectfully,
Frank A. Thackery,
Superintendent and Special Disbursing Agent.
KICKAPOO INDIANS.
1667
List of cases where Frank A. Thackery was appointed guardian of incompetent Kickapoo
Indians, showing the date of application for appointment and date of appointment.
POTTAV,-ATOMIE COUNTY.
I
Peah-twyh-tuck
We-sko-peth-o-que .
Ah-kothe
Wah-ne-ma-quah
Mah-she-nah
Mush-sho-qua-to-quah.
Wah-tah-tah
Kah-ka-nah-che-kah
Kah-ke-ne-peah
Pe-nee-she
Men-ah-pe.
Medk-ke-kah
Ah-na-tho-the
Sho-e-nah-quah
Ma-kothe-wuah
Ma-nah-the-quah-qua-ah .
Wah-sha-ko-skuch
Ah-na-tho-huck
Me-na-mesh
Shah-kah-tih
Miich-p-nen-e
Miit-t wa-ah-quah
Me-nah-quah
Mesh-ah-quot
Pah-ke-che-moke
Ki-yah-squah
Wali-nah-ke-tha
Pv-o-tho
Petition for
appointment
filed.
July 13, 1906
do
-do.
-do.
-do.
-do.
-do.
.do.
-do.
.do.
-do.
do.
do
do
do
do
do
do
do
do
Julv 16, 1906
...".do
do
July 16,1906
do
....do
....do
do.
Pe-ke-to-no-quah "'[ jq
Wah-pah-pen-neah I do
Ke-ke-e-quah \[[.......\ i An
Quen-nep-pe-that ".[.[[..... I do
Wali-que-tah-no-quah i j„
Kish-ke-ton '.'.'.'.'.'.".
Ko-ke-kah-huck
Pen-mo-pah-hone-wah '.'...'.'.....
Ne-pah-liah ..!.'!..'!.!!
Pen-e-thah-ah-quah
Nah-she-pe-eth !.".'!!!..!!!!!.'.'!
Wah-pe-pah ........W
Wah-ko-nah-ka-ka ....'.'. .'.'..'.\\\.\
Kish-ke-ton-o-quah ....\] .[..]]
Mah-mah-tome-ah
She-pah-tho-quah \ .'...'.'.'. ..'..'.
do
do
do
....do
do
....do
....do
July 18,1906
....do
July 13,1906
Julv 16,1906
Appointment
made.
July 23, 1906
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
July 23,1906
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
LINCOLN COUNTY.
Peah-mow-ske
Wah-pah-nah-pe-quah .
Pah-nah-ka-quah ,
Ta-pah-she ,
Ah-kah-tah-she-ma
Pen-ne-ah-kah-qua
Mi-e-nah
Ke-ma-si-quah
Pem-ma-ho-ke
Marko-the-quah
Aug. 13,1906
do
do
do
do
do
do
do
do
do
Oct. 4, 1906
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Do.
Hon.
United States Indian Agency,
T T^ Shawnee, Okla., December 17, 1906.
John Embry,
United States Attorney, Guthrie, Ok la.
Dear Sir: I have your telegram of the 1.5th instant, which reads as follows: "Cause
everyone inducing Kickapoos to leave to be. arrested under latter part section 2113
Ke\-ised statutes. Make separate arrest for each Indian."
Prior to the receipt of this telegram I had talked the matter of preventing these
inclians trom being taken away by prospective purchasers of their allotments over
witft United Mates Commissioner W. R. Asher, and also with Probate Judge Maben
1668 KICKAPOC TNDIANS.
The latter advised me that, if I would present an action in proper form asking for an
injunction, he woiild grant same. I immediately employed the law firm of Pendleton,
Abernathy & Howell to prepare the petition, and I inclose herewith copies of both
the petition and the injuction order, which are self-explanatory.
Immediately upon receipt of your telegram I went before United States Commis-
sioner W. R. Asher, at Tecumseh, Okla., and made complaints against Martin J.
Bentley, L. C. Grimes, R. C. Conine, and George Kishketon. Warrants for the arrest
of these parties were issued without delay by Mr. Asher and were at once turned over
to Deputy United States Marshal J. P. Jones, who just advises me by phone that they
have been served in each case, excepting that of R. C. Conine.
In the case of Mr. Bentlev he is charged with alienating, etc., Ne pah had, Mexican
Kickapoo allottee No. 244,who was allotted the N. J of the SE. J of sec. 12,T. 10 N.,R. 3E.
On July 26, 1906, the probate court of Pottawatomie County, this Territory, declared
her incompetent and appointed me as the legal guardian of her person and estate.
Subsequently (about one month ago) she left this county and Territory for Mexico and,
upon her arrival at Eagle Pass, Tex., is purported to have executed a deed in favor of
one Ida B. Bentley and W. W. Ives, conveying the above-described allotment to them
for a purported consideration of $2,000. This deed is dated November 20, 1906, and is
purported to have been acknowledged before A. W. Bonnett, a notary public of Maver-
ick County, Tex. I have been told by the Indians that Mr. Bentley purchased the
ticket for this woman and accompanied her to Mexico just prior to the date of the
aforesaid deed.
In the case of R. C. Conine, he is charged with alienating, etc., one Py-a-tho,
Mexican Kickapoo allottee No. 232, who was also, on July 23, 1906, declared an
incompetent by the probate court of Pottawatomie County, this Territory, and I
was likewise appointed as the legal guardian of her person and estate. Her allot-
ment is the W. A of the SE. \ of sec. 10, T. 10 N., R. 3 E., and is easily worth |3,000.
I think it can be established that she accompanied R. C. Conine from this vicinity
to Eagle Pass, Tex., where she is purported to have executed a deed in favor of said
R. C. Conine on November 24, 1906, for a consideration of $1,000. The records show
that this deed was acknowledged before T. J. Murray, of Maverick County, Tex.
The deed is also signed by An-nah-no-tha, purported to be the husband of said Py-a-
tho. It is reported to me that Mr. Conine had this woman and man lawfully married
while in Eagle Pass, Tex., but that neither the man nor the woman knew nor under-
stood what was taking place during the marriage ceremony. The husband has
always been a resident of Mexico, and the marriage is believed to have been arranged
for by Mr. Conine for the purpose of establishing, as he thought, the legal residence
of' said Py-a-tho in the Republic of Mexico in order that she might convey her land
under the act of June 21, 1906. This woman Py-a-tho also has an interest in the
allotment of her deceased father. Mah-sko-ta-a-tah, Mexican Kickapoo allottee No^
231, who was allotted the E. ^ of the SE. i of sec. 10, T. 10 N., R. 3 E.
The heirs of said allottee had petitioned me to advertise said allotment for sale
in accordance with the rules of the Interior Department. Their petition had been
granted, and the bids for this allotment were opened by me on December 1, 1906.
at which time the highest bid received was that of A. J. Perkins, of Shawnee, Okla.,
at $3,330. Mr. Conine (as shown by the records at the register of deeds in this county)
has taken a deed for a one-third interest in said land from said Py-a-tho and her
pm-ported husband for a consideration of $300. This deed is dated November 12,
1906, and is acknowledged before T. J. Murray, of Maverick County, Tex. It would
appear that in the taking of this latter deed by Mr. Conine it may have been his
object to discourage anybody bidding upon this allotment as advertised tlirough
this office. I am of the opinion, however, with reference to the connection of Mr.
Conine in this whole matter, that he is acting with and upon the advice of L. C.
Grimes. It will be remembered that this Mr. Conine is the same man who was
employed as a Spanish interpreter by Assistant United States Attorney George A.
Outcelt while making his recent investigation of Kickapoo matters in Mexico. He
has since been actively connected with prospective buyers of the Kickapoo allot-
ments under the act of June 21, 1906.
Mr. Grimes and George Kishketon are charged with having alienated, etc., Men-
ah-pe, who has not as yet left this county for Mexico. In this case, I would state
that three Kickapoo Indians calknl at my residence very soon after daylight on last
Sunday morning (the 16th instant) and advised me that the above-named woman,
Men-ah-pe, had been forcibly taken from camp by George Kishketon and Mack John-
son, two Kickapoo IndiaTis (both of whom are believed to be employed by and work-
ing under the direction of L. C. Grimes). Said Men-ah-pe is purported to have been
held under lock and key at some rooming house in Shawnee during the greater part
of .Saturday night (the 15th instant), and there is but little doubt but that the intention
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1669
was to take lier to Mexico on the moniiiig train of the Misyonri, Kant^as & Texas
Railway, leaving Shawnee at 9 o'clock a. m. The warrant for tlie arrest of Mr. Grimea
having been served late Satnrday evening, this woman was released and returned to
camp sometime prior to daylight of Sunday morning.
In connection with this whole matter, please advise me if, in your opinion, an
action could be sustained under article 3 — Kidnapping — of the session laws of Okla-
homa, 1901, which reads as follows:
"Every person who. without lawful authority, forcibly seizes and confines another,
or inveigles or kidnajis another, for the purpose of extorting any money, property,
or thing of value or advantage from the pei-son so seized, confined, imeigled, or kid-
napped, or any other person, shall be guilty of a felony, and upon conviction thereof
shall be punished by imprisonment in the Territorial prison not less than ten years.''
As stated to yoti over the phone, these Indians do not want to go to Mexico aiid will
not go unless they are inveigled and scared into it. They are simple-minded and
jhave no self-reliance, and have but little, if any, conception of the value of their
property.
I shall be pleased to take any further action you may suggest in this matter ttnd to
! render any possible assistance in an earnest effort to prevent these Indians from being
fleeced of their property. Unless some decisive action is taken at this time in their
I behalf these Indians will soon be paupers upon this community, dependent upon
the citizens thereof.
Very respectfully, F. A. Thackery,
Superintendent and Special Disbursing Agent.
[Telegram.]
Oklahoma City, Okla., January 31, 1907.
iCoMMissiONER Indian Affairs, IFas/^m^T^o/i, D. C:
i _ Press dispatches report provision in Indian bill directing Attorney General to inves-
jtigate Kickapoo land sales in Mexico. If that provision is finally adopted it should
pe made to cover all purported sales by Kickapoos under act oi' June 21 last. All
isales to Bentley are .said to have been made in United States, while sales to other
parties were mostly made in Mexico.
Thackery, Superintendent.
Department of the Interior,
United States Indian Service,
U. S. Indian Agency,
Shawnee, Okla., February 1, 1907.
The Commissioner op Indian Affairs,
Washinytov , D. C.
Sir: Confirming my telegram of last evening sent you from Oklahoma City, Okla.;
.vliicli read as follows:
"Pres.='. dispatches report pro\'i.sion in Indian bill directing Attornev General to
nve.stigate Kickapoo land sales in Mexifo. If tliis provision is finally adopted it
should be made to cover all purported sales by Kickapoos under act of June 21 last.
\11 sales to Bentley are said to have been made in United States, while sales to other
)arties were mostly made in Mexico. (Signed) Thackery, Su])erintendent."
I now have the lionor to inclose herewith pages 1 and 2 of the Dailv Oklahoman
pf January ;il, 1907, in which will be found press dispatclr referred to^ wherein the
jollowing statement appears:
I "Tlie Attorney General of the United States is directed to investigate conveyances
}")urporting to have been executed in Mexico of lands in Oklahoma a fid found to have
)een procured by fraud, to begin proceedings to have them set aside. He is also
nstructed to prosecute parties to the frauds, if any were committed."
I am very glad indeed to have tliis whole matter investigated and hope that the
nvestigation, if made, will be placed in thoroughly reliable hands and that it will
)e thorough. My reason for telegraphing you as above was that, in case the word-
ng of the provision above quoted is correctly given in the newspaper dispatches it
pould seem not to retiuire an investigation of the purported purchases bvMr. Martin
I • Bentley and his friends, most of which were made in the United States at Eagle
ra.«8, Tex. ^
j 3r>601— PT 13— 14 8 "=3
1670 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
I also inclose a press dispatch clippin.e from a Kansas City daily paper of Jamiary
28, 1907, in which the following sentence appears in the last clause thereof:
"It is stated that these disclosures involve certain officials of the Interior Depart-
ment."
I will be glad to have my whole connection with this matter thoroughly gone into.
However, if any hearings are to be given in the matter before the Senate or House
Committee on Indian Affairs, in which I am officially iuA^oh-ed., I deem it only a
matter of justice that I should be ordered before the committee.
Very respectfully,
Frank A. Thackery,
Superintendent cmd Special Disbursing Agent.
The Chairman. Now, did you advise that that legislation be not
passed, or that the bill be vetoed?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; because I believed, from what I had seen
there before the bill became a law, that the Indians would suffer no
matter who controlled them.
The Chairman. Did' you have anvthiag; to do with the framing
of that legislation?
Mr. Thackery. None whatever.
The Chairman. Did you approve of it?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir.
The Chairman. Why?
Mr. Thackery. Because the interests of the Indians were not
properly safeguarded.
The Chairman. It appears that the object of the act was to remove
the restrictions so that the Indians might dispose of their property
at will. Tlie court afterwards held that that could not be done
without the approval of the Secretary of the Interior, that the lan-
guage of the act was insufhcient to permit it to be done without
approval.
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; that is right.
The Chairman. Were you at Eagle Pass when Mr. Outcelt was
down in Muzquiz ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes; part of the time.
The Chairman. Did you know of his being there ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; I went to Mexico with him.
The Chairman. Do you know how he came to go there?
Mr. Thackery. He went, by direction of the Attorney General,
to get further evidence as to those seven allotments — the deeds to
the seven allotments.
The Chairman. Do you know whether or not he was there while
these Indians were alleged to have been coerced into signing deeds?
Mr. Thackery. He was there.
The Chairman. Did you learn of his presence there and his alleged
participation in those transactions at that time ?
Mr. Thackery. I learned of it when the subcommittee made the
investigation.
The Chairman. But not before ?
Mr. Thackery. I knew that Bentley had claimed that he had
assisted these other fellows, but I never knew the details of it until
the matter was under investigation by the subcommittee.
The Chairman. Do you know Mr. Field ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know what his relationship has been to
Mr. Bentley, whether that of an intimate or otherwise?
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1671
Mr. Thackery. I should say that it has been very intimate.
The Chairman. For how long?
Mr. Thackery. Ever since I have known them; since 1901.
The Chairmax. Have they had many transactions together?
Mr. Thackery. Well, whenever any Kickapoo business has come
up of any importance they have always showed u]i together there in
Oklahoma.
The Chairman. Do you know whether or not Mr. Field is the
authorized attorney for the Kickpaoo Indians, or any of them ?
Mr. Thackery. There is some of the faction in Mexico, I have
heard say, that at one time asked him to represent them, but he has
never been so recognized by the authorities of the Government. I
think if he is their attorney it would be necessary for them to have
an approved contract.
The Chairman. He did not claim — if I am correctly informed — to
represent the Oklahoma Kickapoos, that branch of them that stayed
with you, did he, as attorney?
Mr. Thackery. I do not know. My understanding has been that
he claimed to have some sort of agreement, verbal or otherwise, to
represent all of the ^lexican Kickaj^oos.
The Chairman. Do you know of the International Trust Co., of
Delaware ?
Mr. Thackery. I have seen some of the papers of that organization.
The Chairman. Do vou know Mr. John W. Field, the son of W. S.
Field ?
^^Ir. Thackery. I do nf)t think I have ever met him.
The Chairman. Were you in Shawnee at the time that corporation
was organized to do business in Oklahoma City ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know anything about the extent of its
operation or business ?
Mr. Thackery. I do not. I know only what the evidence shows
here, that they received .SI 7, 500.
The Chairman. Mr. Field stated that the company was organized
at his suggestion, for two purposes, if I remember correctly. The
first was to administer on estates in Oklahoma and the second was to
receive this 817,000, being the balance of the trust fund, or approxi-
mately the balance, in the hands of Mr. Bentley at the time Mr.
Bentley resigned as trustee.
Do you know O. A. Mitscher ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. He was mterested in that International Trust Co.?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; one of the officers.
The Chairman. He is treasurer of the Mexican Kickapoo Com-
mimity Co. ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know Mr. Gostin?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What was his relationship to the International
Trust Co., and what are his connections with the Mexican Kickapoo
Community Co. ?
Mr. Thackery. I do not know whether he was mentioned in the
International Trust Co. or not. Not that I know of. But he is, I
1672 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
think, secretary of the Kickapoo Trust Co. at Douglas — the Com-
munity Co., or whatever they call it.
The Chairman. The Mexican Kickapoo Community (Inc.). Who
is the president of that corporation ?
Mr. Bentley. Okemah, I understand.
The Chairman. Do you know? :m
Mr. Thackery. Okemah. We have a certified copy of their ^
The Chairman. Their articles of incorporation ? Will you let me
see it ? Have you a list of the stockholders ?
Mr. Thackery (handing papers to the chairman). I have not
looked it over carefully, but I think it shows the stockholders.
The Chairman. When did you get that ?
Mr. Thackery. Gen. Scott got the one I have when he was in
Douglas.
The Chairman. Is it authenticated ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Where is it incorporated?
Mr. Thackery. In Douglas, Ariz.
The Chairman. I was not talking aljout the Mexican Kickapoo
Community Co.; I referred to the International Trust Co.
Mr. Thackery. No; I have not a copy of that. I have seen a
copy of it, but it was three or four years ago.
The Chairman. Do you have any interest in the Mexican Kickapoo
Community Co. ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; none whatever.
The Chairman. Or are you in any wise connected with its organi-
zation or management ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sh\
Senator Lane. Didn't you keep a book of accounts showing your
guardianship expenditures ?
Mr. Thackery. That was not kept officially.
Senator Lane. I know, but didn't you keep a blotter or ledger
account ? .,
Mr. Thackery. It is kept in a sort of ledger; yes, sir. \
Senator Lane. It does not show here. a
Mr. Thackery. No; that is the trustee account oidy.
Senator Lane. It is marked on the outside, ''Trustee and guar-
dian. Department of the Interior. U. S. Indian Service."
Mr. Thackery. It does not contain the guardian accounts.
Senator Lane. I know it docs not. How much money did you
take over altogether as guardian ?
Mr. Thackery. I could not tell you without figuring it up. ^
Senator Lane. Haven't you some idea ?
Mr. Thackery. .1100,000 — I could run through there and do it.
Senator Lane. I thought perhaps you would know. When was
this -SI 01, 000 turned over to you as trustee?
Mr. Thackery. It was some time the latter part of May, 1908.
Senator Lane. I notice that quite a number of these accounts begin
in July, 1908, and they close in November, December, and October,
in the same year, running only three or four months.
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; that is no doubt true with some of them.
Senator Lane. Now, I notice in all of them that there are blank
charges without any explanation whatever of what tlie mone}' is
expended for.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1673
Mr. Thackery. That is true. The check, as I explained, was
drawn to the Indian himself, pavable to his or her order, and they
indorsed the check. I did that to relieve myself of responsibility as
trustee.
Senator Lane. What attracted my attention to it was your state-
ment that these people were incompetent.
Mr. Thackery. Well, I have also explained that I did whatever I
could do, \nth what Uttle authority I had under that law, to guide
the use of the money for proper purjjoses.
Senator Lane. It does not show here what it was expended for,
whether they were proper or impro])er; not one single indication of
what the money was expended for. Did you keep no accounting of
that? For mstance, if he bought a horse, "^ would you not indorse on
the check "To pay for a horse," 'and then make an entry to that
effect in your book ^
Mr. Thackery. I think I made some notation on many of the
stubs of the checks.
Senator Lane. Why did you not make it in the book here so it
would show without looking over all the individual checks?
Mr. Thackery. You must remember that this work was additional
to the regular ofhce work which I had, without any additional clerical
force.
Senator Lane. I know, but you accepted the responsibility?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; I did.
Senator Lane. You took the money and accepted the responsi-
bihty to render a full and complete account ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Without bond ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. And, consequently, your accounts should be checked
very closely and accurately for that'reason. Now, there is not one
statement here or explanation that I find anywhere of what this
money has gone for.
]Mr. Thackery. I can furnish you with a statement of a very lars-e
part of it. ^ ' ^
Senator Lane. You may, yes; but this is all you are presenting
here now ?
Mr. Thackery. That is all I am presenting. That book shows the
date, the number, and the amount of every check I paid. I have the
canceled checks, which may give a little additional information, and
1 can produce the stubs, upon some of which at least are notations as
to the purpose for whicii the check was drawn.
Senator Townsend. Who drew the money on the checks?
Mr. Thackery. The Indians.
Senator Townsend. Did you spend the money for the things the
Indians bought ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; they bought it themselves. I gave them
the money for certain purposes. In most cases I had some idea of
what they were going to use the money for. The}- would come and
say, as I have exj^lained, that they would want 'to buy a team of
horses. I would advise them to go and biing the team there with
the man who wanted to sell it. We would look it over, and if we made
an agreement. I would give the Indian a check.
1674 KIOKAPOO INDIANS.
Senator Townsend. Did you follow the horses after that to know
what he did with them ?
Mr. Thackery. As nearly as we could; yes.
Senator Lane. Here is an account, the account of Wah-nah-ke-
tha, page 24. "By check to self," running from Jul}^ 9 to November
14 — the money is all gone.
Senator Townsend. Whom do you mean by "self"? Were the
checks drawn to yourself or to the Indians ?
Mr. Thackery. To the Indian in every case.
Senator Lane. He gave the Indian the check. And in 4 months
here an incompetent has used up $1,198, without a scratch of the pen
to show what it was spent for.
(The witness here made a further informal explanation of certain
entries.)
Senator Lane. Now, this book was submitted to whom?
Mr. Thackery. It has not been submitted to anybody.
Senator Lane. Has anybody checked this over ?
Mr. Thackery. Nobody but myself ?
Senator Lane. The account has been accepted by somebody.
You have not made any report on it ?
Mr. Thackery. Never; except the cases where I am guardian and
the court has gone over it.
Senator Lane. These expenditures in here have never been
checked by anyone ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; except in the guardianship cases.
Senator Lane. Nor have they been approved ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir.
Senator Lane. These are not guardianship cases in here ?
Mr. Thackery. Some of them.
Senator Lane. I thought you said the guardianship cases were
not in here.
Mr. Thackery. They are not; but what I am saying is that in
every case where I was guardian I transcribed that into my guardian
account .
Senator Lane. Nor is there any memorandum anywhere of what
the money has been expended for.
Mr. Thackery. Well, I say I have a memorandum — I can prepare
one.
Senator Lane. But there is not in this book in which you kept the
account of the trust fund, and the other you will have to hunt here,
there, and yonder for.
Mr. Thackery. Some of it is on the check stubs.
Senator Lane. And some of it is not. How much of it is on the
check stubs ?
Mr. Thackery. I could not tell j^ou without checking it through
Senator Lane. Half of it ?
Mr. Thackery. I think more than that.
Senator Lane. And was that your method of keeping the accounts
of this $101,000 fund — on the stubs of your checks?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; my method was to take it up officially
under a bond and account for it.
Senator Lane. But you did not give a bond. '^ '^
Mr. Thackery. I did not, because the act was so worded as to
make it impossible.
\
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1675
Senator Lane. And you have made no accounting for it, and all
you have to show is your notations made upon some checks ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir: I have every canceled check with the
indorsement of tlie Indian to whom the money was paid on the back
of the check.
Senator Lane. I never saw accounts kept that way before.
Representative Stephens. About how many guardianship cases
did you have in the courts ?
Mr. Thackery. Of that 82 there were probably 60.
Representative Stephens. That would leave 22 then that got the
money outside of the probate courts ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Now, when you went to the probate
court did they require you to give bond there?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. And then when you made your final
settlement did you get a release from the court?
Mr. Thackery. The court approved the accounts when I made
my final report. It is, of course, aU in the probate court record.
Representative Stephens. Then there are no cases open in the
probate courts between yourself as guardian and your wards ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir: they are all closed.
Senator Lane. Didn't you know that when you kept your accounts
that way without a more careful system of bookkeeping you made
yourself liable to be accused of having misused these funds, and that
for your own protection it was necessary for you to kee]) a more
complete set of books ?
Mr. Thackery. As I have said. Senator, I have practically every
check that I issued bearing the indorsement of the Indian ; and if
there is any question about what those checks were for it is very easy
to take the check and trace it down, and if there is anything wrong to
locate it b}' mean>^ of these checks — the check itself, when you make
a payment, is the best possible evidence.
Senator Townsend. You never accounted, as I understood you,
to the Government for that money ? You gave a receipt for $101 ,000 ?
Mr. Thackery. I did not give any receipt, excepting my indorse-
ment on the warrant.
Senator Townsend. Then you were to spend this as directed by
those 82 Indians i
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. Did you ever make an accounting to tliom I
To the 82 Indians (
Mr. Thackery. I have gone over these separate accounts with the
'different Indians.
I Senator Townsend. But never with the tribe in council ?
j Mr. Thackery. No, sir.
j Senator Townsend. So that, wliile you were directed to spend this
as thosp 82 Indians autli()riz<'() you to do. you never made any
^accounting to them ?
I Mr. Thackery. They mi't in council and authorized me to divide
,it pro rata, by the council proceedings which will you find in the back,
'I (lid divide it up according to that council proceeding. Then I did
jaccount to (\ich indivithiid Indian i'nr tl\e amount so divided u]>.
1676 KICKAPOO IXDIANS.
Senator Townsend. Has there ])eeii any complaint of any one of
those Indians that you did not settle properly (!
Mr. Thackery. No, sir.
Senator Lane. Did you make a final statement with each Indian
when you quit ?
Mr. Thackery. No, not in writing. We went over all the accounts.
Senator Lane. You did not take a release from him ?
Mr. Thackery. His check is a receipt.
Senator Lane. I mean a final closing up ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I have no receipt excepting his check.
Senator Lane. You did not suhmit him a final statements
Mr. Thackery. No, sir.
Senator Townsend. Was any one of these checks ever questioned.
That is, did any one of the Indians deny that he had received money
from you ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; in no case at all. There is one case where
there was one of the men died, one of the persons receiving part of
this money. His wife afterwards came in to see me and wanted to
know if he had received all of the money before he died. That is the
only case where there was any question raised at all. And when she
went over the account and it was explained to her she was, as far as I
know, entirely satisfied.
Senator Townsend. That leads to the question I was just going
to ask. Did any of these Indians die — you said there was one. Did
more than one die before the settlement was made?
Mr. Thackery. I do not think any of them died before the settle-
ment was made. I do not remember the names, but there are
several of them that have died since then. There is one case there —
the case of John Snake. I paid out the small end of his account
after he was too sick to sign a check.
Senator Townsend. Now^, I wish you would explain what you
meant by saying that you were having trouble over the Mexican
situation durhig the time you were agent at Shawnee ? Did I under-
stand you to say that ?
Mr. Thackery. I said, in answer to a question by the Chairman
as to the farming activities of these Indians, that during all of the
agitation growing out of these various acts of Cvngress the}' were
in a state of turmoil, and they did not settle down and farm as
well as they might have done had that agitation not existed.
Senator Townsend. What agitation do you refer to ?
Mr. Thackery. Well, there was this agitation about then- leaving
Oklahoma and going to Mexico. They were unsettled; they were
gohig back and forth, spending money for railroad tickets and travel- I
ing expenses, which they might otherwise spent in improving a home
had this agitation not existed.
Senator Townsend. You have been to Mexico several times ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. How does the condition of the Kickapoo
Indiars in Mexico compare with the condition of thos(^ in Oklahoma?
Mr. Thackery. I think the Oklahoma Indians are in better finan-
cial condition and no worse ])hysic!il condition.
Senator Townsend. Are the Okhdionia Indians con.tente<l (!
Mr. Thackery. Ai)parently; yes. Since this matt(M- has settled!
down the hist three or four years, they have been farming betterj
than ever l)efore. .\
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1677
Senator Townsend. Were you active in tryintr to prevent tlieir
going into Mexico ?
Mr. Thackery. I advised them not to go. I told them when they
pressed the question that under any hiw I knew of they had a right
to go if thoy wanted to, but I thought it was the wrong method and
advised them to stop.
Senator Townsend. Did they have confidence in your advice ?
Ml'. Thackery. They did finally and they have now. They did
not the first two or three years after I took charge at Shawnee.
Senator Tow^NSEND. You tt stifled fully before thf whole Senate
Committee on Indian Affairs, did you not ?
Mr. Thackery. It is hard to say what you would call fully on a
matter which has lasted some 12 or 15 years. It would take two or
three wcfks to tell it all.
Senator Townsend. Were you in Mexico the tinu- this special
senatorial committee visited there?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I did not see anything of tlie committee
until they came to Shawnee. They were there two days. I guess.
Senator Townsend. Who were there (
Mr. Thackery. Senator Curtis, Senator La FoUette. Mr. Field, Mr.
Bentley, and Mr. Hannan.
Senator Townsend. Who is that ?
Mr. Thackery. Senator La FoUette's secretary. Tlien tiiere were
two or three stenographers. Mr. Gait was one of them, and a Mr.
Nortlirup with Senator Teller, I believe. There might have been one
or two others.
Senator Townsend. Did you know that there were some of these
"land sliarks," as some have called them, down in Mexico trying to
get deeds for the Oklahoma property from the iSIexican Kickapoos '?
Mr. Thackery. In 1906?
Senator Townsend. At any time.
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; I knew they were there in 1906.
Senator Townsend. Do you say now that it was your understand-
ing that they were there to defraud the Indians out of their land ?
Ml*. Thackery. Well, of course, I believed at that time that the
Indians were going to get very much the worst of the deal. Lhider
that act they were going to buy the land as cheaply as they could get
it. I did not know at that time that they were going to resort to the
measures which it finally appeared they did resort to, but I felt sure
from what I had seen the few days I was there that the Indian would
come up minus any land or any money. And I laid that matter fully
before the department in many telegrams and letters.
Senator Townsend. You thought it was a sort of strife between
Bentley, Field & Co. on one side and the other fellows on the other
side, to get the Indians' land ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. I did not think the Luhans would have
proper treatment at the hands of either faction.
Senator Townsend. And you reported these things to the depart-
ment ?
Mr. Thackery. I did. And immediately following the passage
of that act of 1906 I returned to Oklahoma and took these Indians,
as I have stated, before the court. The court declared them incom-
petent, and I was appointed their guardian to prevent their being
1678 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
removed to Mexico where the deeds would be taken on their land as
well as those then in Mexico.
Senator Townsend. Are you satisfied that Bentley and those
people did actually defraud the Indians who did go to Mexico out of
any of their property ?
Mr. Thackery. There is no question in my mind about their de-
frauding them (Uit of the funds which they have held. I do not
think it is even properly accounted for.
Senator Towxsend. Do you have any specific instance in mind
that leads you to make that statement ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; there are several items in that account
that Senator Robinson examined Mr. Bentley on the other evening.
Senator Townsend (handing a paper to the witness). Here they
are. I think those are copies of his account.
Mr. Bentley. If the Senator will permit me, that is not my
account at all. That is simply various items made up and submitted
to the Senate committee, asking reimbursement. My account is a
totally different instrument from that. That is my expenditures
and disbursements.
Senator Townsend. Have you your account?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir.
S?nator Townsend. Just hand him that.
Mr. Bentley. I was testifying in relation to those items, it is
true, but that is not my account rendered of the Kickapoo money.
Mr. Thackery. This is sworn to.
Mr. Bentley (exhibiting a paper). This is my account.
Senator Townsend. What is that sworn statement that you tes-
tified about the otlun- night?
Mr. Bentley. That is the sums that I disbursed in the protection
of myself and the Indians during the time we were being interfered
with and being persecuted and prosecuted in Mexico and elsewhere.
Senator Townsend. Very well. Mr. Thackery, do you know
anything about those items that he swore to that leads you to make
the statement that a proper accounting was not made?
Mr. Thackery. Well, in that connection, I wUl say that the first
item, various <\xpenses, the total of which is $475, being the alleged
expenses growing out of the attachment against Pah-ko-tah, the
Kickapoo Indian — I would ask permission to get a certified copy of
their court record in Oklahoma in connection with that case, and
submit it to the committee to compare with this account. I have
every reason to ])"'lieve that no such amount was expended.
Mr. Bentley. If you will let me interrupt you
Mr. Thackery. The next item is, ''Expenses caused by various
indictments of nwself and John Williams." That is the same case,
and amounts to an additional $2,825. The court records in those
cases will show everything, I think, unless it would be the attorney's
fees. I would like to get an authenticated transcript of the court
record in those cases and submit it to the committee tor comparison.
Mr. Bentley. Mr. Thackerey, please let me interrupt. Do you
mean to say that the court record would show the number of witnesses
I brought ? These witnesses were in Mexico. They did not sub-
poena my witnesses. There is no record to show how many witnesses
I brought, or anything about it. It only says what the Ignited States
did. I was the defenihint in all those cases.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 16 7^
Mr. Thackery. I tried, Mr. Bentley, when you were testifying to
this to get you to name the witnesses. The fact is here that the
Government brought most of those witnesses.
Ml". Bentley. The Government never brought any of my witnesses
at any time.
Mr. Thackery. This is what I mean by that. I was present at.
the trial, and I know what Indians testified
Mr. Bentley. There never was any trial in the Pah-ko-tah case.
We kept coming, term after term of court. Had we not been there
they would have forfeited our bond, and when were there ready for
trial they would not try us.
Mr. Thackery. There are a lot of cases here where there was a
trial and where the witnesses were brought, and I believe if you would
name the witnesses— —
Mr. Bentley. I would not attempt at this time. Hero are 15 or
20 witnesses or more — —
Mr. Thackery. There was the Kah-kah-to the-quah trial.
Mr. Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Thackery. Did you pay the expenses or did the Government?
Mr. Bentley. I paid every dollar.
Mr. Thackery. Name the witnesses.
Mr. Bentley. I won't attempt to do that oif-handed
Senator TowNSEND. Now, can't you find out? You say ''off-
hand." Suppose wo take one case hero. If this thing is right, it can
be established, and if it is wrong, this committee has the means for
finding it out.
Mr. Bentley. Surely, I want to do that.
Senator Townsend. Now, can you by taking time think who your
witnesses were at that particular trial ?
Mr. Bentley. By taking time — by returning to where my papers
are I can give nearly every one of those cases. Probably I have many
of the canceled checks.
Senator Townsend. Why can you not get your papers here I Is
it not cheaper to get your jiapers here than to go where your papers
are?
Mr. Bentley. At this time it is impossible for me to ^ot them
unless I go hoxne for them or Mrs. Bentley goes. Our home is ])roken
up and Mrs. Bentley has moved to another place. Our original home
is vacant. Part of our effects are there. To bring all my papers
here- — it would be a wagonload of them. It would take a trunk to
bring them hero. It is a groat desk full of papers that pertain to
various stages of this thing.
Senator 'Townsend. Have you anything else to suggest, Mr.
Thackery ?
Mr. Thackery. An item in the account of Mr. Field, dated October
10, 1911, reading: "Oklahoma supplies for Indians and expenses
visiting Douglas, Ariz., to complete settlement, $800."
Superintendent Buntin, who is present, and myself were present
at this particular meeting in Douglas, and we wont with Mr. Field
from Douglas into the Kickapoo camp near Bacerac, and camo back
out with the Indians, and Mr. Buntin has a Government voucher
whore ho paid for their camping ground and paid for the meals which
those Indians ate on that trip.
1680
KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Bentley. Now, of course, that has nothing to do with my
account.
Mr. Thackery. They asked about Mr. Field and Mr. Bentley.
Mr. Bentley. I want it understood he is testifying about what ,
Mr. Field did. I^ was not there. I made no claim or charge. I
don't know anything about those things.
Mr. Thackery. Superintendent Buntin, as the agent of the Gov-
ernment, paid their expense that was necessarily incurred by the
Indians who came up at this particulai" time.
Senator Townsend. Is that in Mr. Bentley's account ?
Mr. Thackery. This is Mr. Field's account.
Senator Townsend. We have not had Mr. Field.
Mr. Thackery. You asked, if I understood you, as to Field and
Bentley.
Representative Burke. It is included in that statement, is it not?
Mr. Bentley. Do you mean to say that Mr. Buntin subsisted
those Indians up there and provided them with subsistence to return?
Mr. Thackery. He has vouchers showing it.
Mr. Bentley. He bought a few dollars' worth of groceries at
Douglas. It was a mere trifle that he paid, according to what the
Indians told me.
Mr. Thackery. You think he paid more than S800?
Mr. Bentley. I think that is a very large sum to have been paid
on that occasion. I am not contending that that was not paid, but
I think the sum paid by the Government at that time was a mere
trifle, and I would like to have the record of that expenditure by the
Governm'^nt shown.
Mr. Thackery. Have you that with you, Mr. Buntin?
(The voucher referred to was subsequently submitted by Mr.
Buntin, and is as follows:)
[Copy.)
Department of the Interior
U. S. Indian Service
f"onn approved by Comptroller of the
Treasury October 30, 1907.
Voucher No.
5— 335 b
VOUCHER OR CLAIM FOR TR.WELING KXPENkSES.
(Extra sheet.) 409- A
December 30th, 1911.
The United St.\tes,
To John A. Buntin, Dr.
(Give poat-office address) Shawnee, Oklahoma.
Date.
1911.
Items.
Sub.
Vou.
No.
Amount.
Oct. 1st
2iid
Breakfast, Douglas, .A.rizona
Dinner, "
Supper, ''
Transfer, Douglas to Agua Prieta and return
" 3 Indians, Agua Prieta to Douglas
" 3 " Douglas to Agua Prieta
Breakfast, Douglas, Ariz. — Thos. W. ,\lford ,
Dinner, " "
Supper, '■ "
Laundry, " "
Auto hire, Agua Prieta — "
Breakfast, Douglas— self
Dinner, " "
Supper, " "
Transfer, " to Agua Prieta and return
" 2 Indian women, Douglas to .\gua Prieta.
$0.35
.50
.50
.50
.75
.76
.35
.50
.50
.70
.50
.35
.9
.35
.50
.50
KICKAPOO INDIANS.
1681
Date.
1911.
Items.
Sub.
Vou.
No.
Amount,
Oct. 2nd
3rd
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
ISth
27th
Dec. 8th
9th
10th
12th
16th
Acknowledging 15 powers of attorney and 2 deeds
Photographing two groups of Indians and 2 schedules.
Camp yard and house for Indians, 10 days at $1.60
47 meals of Indian witnesses—® 25<!!
126 " " " " @25(t
Breakfast
Dinner
Supper
Transfer to Agua Prieta and retm^n
Telegram to Shawnee, Okla
Transfer, Thomas W. .\ Iford to Agua Prieta
" " from "
Breakfast, "
Dinner, "
Supper, "
Breakfast, "
Dinner "
Supper, "
Laundry, "
Lodging, self, 3 days, al.?l..")(i
Transportation, Douglas, .\rizona to Eagle Pass, Texas
" " " " T. W. Alford, Shawnee, Okla.
3 days' use of room, @ S2.50 — Thomas W. Alford
Breakfast, "
' ' self (on diner)
Dinner, Del Rio
Transfer, Eagle Pass> Texas, depot to Hotel Dolch
Supper, lodging and breakfast, Eagle Pass, Tex
Transportation, Eagle Pass, Texas to Shawnee, Okla
Dinner, Spoftord, Texas
Supper, El Paso, Texas
Transfer, Dolch hotel to station
Parlor car fare, SpolTord to El Paso, Texas
Breakfast en route
Dinner, Denison, Texas
Telegram to Shawnee, Okla
Supper.
Express on 22 Indian checks to Eagle Pass bank, Texas.
Recordings deeds to Frank A. Thackery
Transportation, Shawnee to Oklahoma City, Okla
Supper, "
Lodging, "
Breakfast, '•
Transportation, Oklahoma City to (Uithric
Dinner, "
Supper, "
Transportation, Guthrie to Oklahoma City
Lodging, "
Transportation, Oklahoma City to Shawnee
Recording quit claim deed & 34 powers of attorney
Transportation, Shawnee to Oklahoma City '. ,
Dinner, "
$4.23
5.00
16.00
11.75
31.50
.35
.70
.35
..50
.25
.75
.50
.35
.35
.35
.35
.75
.75
.70
4.50
24. 35
31.20
7. .50
.95
.70
.25
.25
1.50
19.30
.40
.60
.25
.70
.25
.60
.25
.55
.70
3.00
1.10
.55
1..50
.50
.95
.50
.75
.95
1.00
1.10
2.5.00
1.10
.,35
Senator Townsend. Mr. Thackery, what particular thing can you
testify to that was'done by Mr. Bentley or Mr. Field that made you
believe at the time that they were going to defraud the Indians
out of their property ?
Mr. Thackery. In the first place, the wording of the legislation
itself would lead anybody to think that it was not open and above
board. It is so worded as -to leave the Indians without proper pro-
tection. It takes the control of their trust property out of the hands
of any Government authority and places it in other hands without
any ordinary provision for its proper management.
Senator Townsend. That applied to the portion that went to
you, the same as it did to the portion that went to Mi\ Bentley?
Mr. Thackery. Yes; but I was in no way instrumental in getting
the legislation. I did not want the fund. It would have been very
difficult to have gotten rid of it. I tried to account for it ofTiciaUy,
but under the wording of the act, which was procured at their in-
stance, I could not do it.
1682 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Now, there were a number of other things. For instance, the re-
ceipt which has been several times referred to, wherein he gives an
Indian a receipt for $2,000 payable at the convenience of the payor.
That was a little lead-pencil receipt, but it seemed to me to indicate
fraud on its face. 'He says that he had given a proper note previous
to this which, he says, she had lost, and he gave this in place of it.
Now, the note— she denied ever having had any such note. She
was a girl that had been to school, and when she turned the money
over she wanted to have something to show for it, and she gave that,
paper to me later on. She came to me and told me the story, and
showed me this as being the only thing which she had ever received
for this money, and wanted me to help her get her funds back.
There were several receipts oi that character which came into my
hands.
Mr. Bentley. Have you any more to offer now ?
Mr. Thackery. There was one introduced into the record, which
is included in the report of Supervisor Dickson. I do not remember
the name of the Indian.
Mr. Bentley. I would like to interrupt you, Mr. Thackery, if
you will permit it.
Mr. Thackery. There were a number of cases of that kind, which
did not indicate to me a desire on his part to handle their money
by checks or by some accounting wliich could be followed up and
traced to ascertain whether it liad been proper or not.
Then, the transactions with reference to his attempts to buy, if
you please, the testimony of Dr. Conine
Mr. Bentley. Now, gentlemen, that
Senator Townsend. Wait, Mr. Bentley, just a minute; you will
have a cliance to testify. I want the witness to complete his state-
ment so I can get an answer to my question. You can testify to
this same thing, if necessary.
Mr. Thackery. Well, as I liave said, these other men — the acts
x){ these other men were undoubtedly very bad. Still Mr. Bentley
goes and enters into an arrangement* with them whereby, according
to the testimony, he agrees to pay one of the men who had been
working in opposition to him $3,000, I beheve, to come over and
desert these other fellows.
Mr. Bentley. Please state tlie testimony that is your authority
for that. Tell tlie committee on whose authority
Mr. Thackery. I would Hke to ask the committee to examine
Jack Kellv, city poHceman in the city of vShawnee, who held the
money — five $10 bills— paid on tliis contract. I tliink he holds it yet;
he did the last time I saw liim. Conine was the man that was to
give the testimony and receive the $3,000.
Mr. Bentley. You have admitted, tliough, the whole matter was
a frame-up ?
Mr. Thackery. I have admitted that, but you indicated, m con-
nection with it, that you were wilMng to enter into it and buy a
man's testimony.
Mr. Bentley. I have not admitted it. In fairness to myself, 1
want to explain in this record now
Representative Burke. Mr. Chairman, why not let one witness
testify?
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1683
The Chairman. Go ahead, Mr. Thackery, and testify, and tJien
you will be permitted to make any statement you desire, Mr. Bentley.
Mr. Thackery. These men got him into that condition because he
had deeds of certain lands which they had deeds on. And after they
got him into that fix and had him indicted, then they come to him,
as the case would show, and make some arrangement whereby he
quitclaims on the cases where he had
Mr. Bentley. Do not use the term ''case." You know there were
no cases.
The Chairman. Do not interrupt, JVIr. Bentley.
Ml'. Thackery. He has admitted that these quitclaim deeds were
executed by himself or wife, or both, and immediately following that
this indictment was dismissed.
Then, there is the case, already shown in the record, of Inspector
McLaughlin, wherein he enters into a similar deal with one L C.
Grimes, one of the most notorious in the alleged fraudulent deeds
under the act of 1906 — he enters into a deal with that Mr. Grimes
Mr. Bentley. That is the man you arranged with Outcelt to get
the Indians out of Mexico.
Mr. Thackery. No; I did not arrange with Outcelt. That has
not been shown.
Mr. Bentley. Your letter shows it.
Mr. Thackery. He enters into a deal with this man Grimes to turn
to him sufficient votes of the Kickapoo Irdians
Mr. Bentley. May I ask if he testified in person about it ?
The Chairman. Stop interrupting, Mr. Bentley. I have stated
you will be permitted to reply.
Mr. Thackery (continumg). Grimes is to turn to him sufficient
votes of the Kickapoo Indians, under the act of April 30, 1908, to
control this council that is to determine the disposition of this
$215,000. And for his services in doing that he is to receive — 1 be-
lieve it is equal to $10,000; and, according to the affidavit of Mr.
Grimes and his attorney, who was present and heard the agreement,
$100 was paid, or about $100 was paid on that contract, and Mr.
Bentley purchased this man Grimes and took hinr from Shawnee,
Okla., to Douglas, Ariz., for the purpose of carrying out this arrange-
ment whereby Grimes was to throw him enough votes, because of his
influence — to throw him a majority so he might control the dispo-
sition of that money.
Now, that, mind you, is with the man who, before this subcom-
mittee of the Senate which made this investigation, he charges
perhaps more than any other man with all this crookedness; still
when he gets into a p'nch he is willing to enter into an agreement
with him.
Those things, I say, led me to believe that theii- methods were not
what they ought to be. There was other tilings of that character,
but those illustrate in a general way what led me to that conclusion.
Senator Townsend. Were you in sucJi a frameup, as ]u> calls it,
witli tliis man Outcelt?
Mr. Thackery. Absolutel}^ no; none wJuitever.
Senator Townsend. What were your relations with Outcelt in tJiat
matter ?
Mr. Thackery. I was sent tliere in my capacity as superintendent
at Shawnee to assist him in procuring any evidence which might be
1684 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
available as to transactions growing out of the deeds taken under the
act of March 3. 1905, witli reference to the seven allotments. And
while I was there this 1906 act became a law; it passed, and these
other transactions took place.
Senator Townsend. Did you know tliat this 1906 act was being
considered at that time in Congress ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. You knew that when you went down there?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; I learned it just a little while before.
These otlier parties took away about 15 or 20 Kickapoos, thinking
the act was going to become a law, no doubt, for the purpose of
making them nonresidents in order that they miglit get deeds, and I
wared the office to that effect.
Senator Townsend. Did you go down to Mexico for anything that
had anything to do with that proposed act ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir.
Senator TownseNd. You went down there solely in connection
witli the seven cases ?
Ml'. Thackery. Yes, sir. W]ien the arrangements was made for
our going I don't think the 1906 act was known of at all. This 1906
matter was reported in the newspapers later on, after our arrange-
ments to continue the investigation of the seven allotments had
been made.
The claim lias been made by Mr. Bentley that Outcelt used the
same interp'reter, and that happened in this way: There are very few
interpreters in tliis particular locality, and I had authority to employ
a Spanish and an Indian interpreter; but on going to Mexico we first
went to the town of Muzquiz to examine the land records there, or
whatever records we could find as to the title to any land which he
claimed he had bought from the funds coming from these 1905 trans-
actions. We came to Muzquiz, and I stayed there, I think, over one
night, and when I saw the way the matter was shaping around I left
there immediately and went to Eagle Pass where I could take the
matter up, as I tHought, to better advantage by wu-e with the depart-
ment.
I had not employed aii}^ Spanish interpreter at that time, but when
I left I told Mr. Outcelt that if he found need for an interpreter he
might secure one under this authority which I had. We later did
employ Dr. Conine, who, from the record, I judge, also acted as the
interpreter for some of these other men.
Senator Townsend. Did you succeed Mr. Bentley as superintend-
ent or agent out there of the Kickapoos ?
Mr. Thackery. I succeeded Mr. Bentley and two other people.
The work tliat had formerly been under Mr. Bentley and a part of the
work that had been done at the school and the superin tendency of the
Shawnee Inchan School — the three positions were consolidated, and
I took the vv(^rk.
Senator Townsend. Were there some frauds committed upon the
Indian^ whil<^ you were agent there?
Mr. Thackery. You mean in M<'xico ?
Senator Townsend. No; in Oklahoma.
Mr. Thackery. I do not recall any particular frauds. These
Kickapoos were imdoubtedly defrauded m these transactions growing
out of this legislati<m.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1685
Senator Townsend. As I understood Mr. Bentley — he can correct
me if I am wrong — one of his reasons for wanting to get out of Okla-
homa with the Indians was because they were not treated fairly and
could not be treated fairh^; they were being imposed upon almost con-
stantly, and some of their property, as I understand it, was taken
away from them. Is that correct ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, su\
Mr. Thackery. What property do 3^011 refer to ?
Mr. Bextley. These people would come and interfere wdth them.
Their mules were bemg stolen and their stock rim off. Drunken rene-
gades would come there and fight with them
Mr. Thackery. There was no considerable amoimt of that; no.
There might have been an occasional disturbance oyer drunkenness.
There is always more or less of that m Oklahoma aroimd those towns,
both among the Indians and the whites.
Senator Townsend. He stated sometlihig, as I recall it, about a
fake pohceman that would go out among the Indians
Mr. Thackery. That was before my time there, long before I went
there, and I knew nothuig about it.
Mr. Bentley. That was m the early days, before allotment, or
about that time. A deputy marshal would go and arrest an Indian
who had property, on any kind of a paper, and he would compromise
it and take liis property.
Senator Townsend. He has testified that while he was agent there
the Kickapoo Indians were satisfied and doing well, but afterwards
things went wrong. How were they changed ?
Mr. Thackery. Well, of coui-se, I do not know how weU they did
under hun, because I was not there, but there was a good deal of
agitation amongst them at the time or very soon after I took charge.
And the uneasiness of the Intlians, so far as I could tell, was caused
entirely b}" stories which were circulated amongst them that since
their agent had been taken away and a superintendent put in his
place the intention of the Government was to force their children
into school. They were opposed to their children attending school,
and that was a very strong point with them. They did not want
their children in school, and they came to me a number of times away
in the night. It had been reported to them that I was out in the
night after their children, and they would come to my home to see
if 1 reaUy was there. They were aU uneasy.
Senator Townsend. Bid you try to force them into schools?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir.
Senator Townsend. Did you not establish scb.ools among the
Indians ?
Mr. Thackery. We had a boarding school there, and I finally,
when I gained their confidence, put a large number of them into
school. I say a large number; there were not very many. I had 10
or 15 in school when I left there, but for the first several years I did
not dare to mention school, because it would have had the eft'ect of
scaring them all oft' to' Mexico. They were made to feel that the only
way they could avoid the education of their children was to take them
and go to Mexico.
Senator Townsend. Now, Mr. Thackery, one of the things that
this commission wants to find, if it exists, is this — and it wants to
35601— PT 13—14 9
1686 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
find it ill your case as well as in any other, and will use every means it
can to get at tlie facts in your case just the same as it will in the others.
What we would like to know is whether there is anything in your
knowledge that this commission ought to know in reference to the
conduct of Mr. Bentley or anybody else in connection mth this
$86,000 fund, or any other fund that the Government has appropri-
ated for the Kickapoos, that has not been regular or that indicated
that there has been a wrong done the Indians.
Mr. Thackery. I should be glad to have a little time to go over
this statement to call your attention to whatever may appear.
Senator Townsend. I think the committee would be glad to hava
you do so.
The Chairman. Yes; I \vish you would do that.
Mr. Thackery. I had never had an opportunity to go over thia!
until lately, and to consider this properly vnW require a comparison
with the accounts of Supt. Buntin and myself, as well as the records
of the court.
Representative Burke. Mr. lliackery, when you received this
$101,000 you were the superintenncnt at the agency and in the employ
of the Interior Department ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
RepresentatiA-e Burke. And you have been at a]l times since then
and during the tiaie you were disbursing the fund?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. The Interior Department knew you had.
this $101,000, and that you expected to disburse it?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. Has the department or the Bureau of
Indian Affairs ever made any inquiry of you with reference to the
fund as to whether you had disbursed it, and to what extent? |j
Mr. Thackery. Mr. Kearful, of the Department of Justice, looke<Ji
over my account at one time, and said that he did so at the request
of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. i
Representative Burke. He looked over your account ? Wliat doB
you mean by that ?
Mr. Thackery. He inquired into the manner in which I was pay-
ing it out, whether by cheek or just handing it out in casli.
Representative Burke. You have never received any written com-
munications from or sent any communications to any branch of
the Interior Department that had reference to this disbursement?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; not that I recall.
Representative Burke. Now, when you took the Indians over to
Douglas, Ariz., for the council, I beheve you stated there was an ex-
penditure of about $7,000?
Mr. Tha(;kery. Yes, sir; something like that.
Representative Burke. Was that expended from the amount of
money that you received, or was that expended from the $215,000?
Mr. Thackery. Some of the Indians had funds to defray tlieir
own expenses, and those who had funds loaned those who (Ud not
have funtls sufficient to make the trip on. After we received the
$215,000, or my part of it, they i)aid — the ones who had borrowed
from other ln<hans ])aid it l)ack from their share of this $215,000.
Representative Blirke. Then the $101,000 that you received, in
round nund)ers, was (Uvided ecjually, without any amount being de-
ducted for expenses that were paid out on account of that trip ? i
i
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1687
Mr. TiiACKERY. Yes, sir; it was divided equally.
Representative Burke. Now, these Indians were allotlcMl, as I
understand it, in 1894?
Mr. Thackery. About that time — ^1893.
Eepresentative Burke. And all Indians li\'ing at that time were
allotted ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. Then in 1908, when the $215,000 appro-
priation was made, there must have been some minors among the
Indians, were there not, who were allottees ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes; there was.
Representative Burke. Some of them as young as 14?
Mr. Thackery. The youngest vrould be about that; yes.
Representative Burke. Now, when you credited, as I understand
you (hd, each Indian with one thousand one hundred and ninety-
eight dollars and twenty-five or twenty-four cents, as the case might
be, did 3^ou credit each minor the same as each adult ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. Now, how did you expend the money of
the mincu" ?
Mr. Thackery. It was mostly expended as guardian. The young-
est, I remember, was a girl named Anna Hale. I tliink she was the
youngest allottee. The account wiU show for itself. In tliis case of
Anna Hale this $71.05 represented the amount she gave to these five
homeless Indians.
Representative Burke. How old was she at that time?
Mr. Thackery. I should say she was 14 or 15 years old.
Representative Burke. She signed a check the same as the adult
Indians ?
Mr. Thackery. Y^es, sir.
Representative Burke. And is that true as to other disbursements
that were made on her account ?
Mr. Thackery. Excepting the last check, which was for $1,072.51.
Representative Burke. In this case of the $1,198.24 you accounted
lor $1,072.51 as a guardian, having been duly appointed?
Mr. Thackery. Y'^es, sir.
Representative Burke. Now, were there any other cases where
the money was paid out to minors where you were not appointed
^ardian ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; not any considerable amount.
Representative Burke. Now, in 1894 these Indians were allotted,
and in 1908, 14 years afterwards, there were living 82 in Oklahoma
and 75 in Mexico. This was in 1908; that would be 14 years after-
ft'ards. Do you mean to say there was only one minor?
Mr. Thackery. They are all marked here. The book of accounts
shows each case where it was a minor [indicating].
Representative Burke. Now, in this case [indicating], how old
svas this Indian ? Vvliat is that name ?
Mr. Thackery. Pe-ah-puck-o-he. I should say he was about 17
3r 18.
Representative Burke. Of his $1,198 you have expended $880 as
?uar(Uan ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
1688 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Representative Burke. The balance you have paid the same' as
you would pay to an adult ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. Now, in paying money to the minor in
any case, what would that be paid for ? I do not suppose that would
be for building houses or farm implements or horses?
Mr. Thackery. In the case of both of these I speak of a house
was later built out of the fund I took up as guardian.
Representative Burke. Of the $300 and some odd, $71, I under-
stand, went to the homeless Indians. But the other items - have you
any information as to how that was expended ?
Mr. Thackery. $71.06 was his share that went to the five home-
less Indians. The next check is a $5 item, which is the amount to
pay a certain debt the tribe ov/ed to a man named Much-e-ne-ne.
Representative Burke. You would not use the money of a minor
to pay a debt of the tribe ?
Mr. Thackery. The tribe paid it pro rata. The tribe made a
trip to the city. $52.19—1 do not recall just what that item was.
The amount expended in that v\^ay, in every case of a minor, was
small.
Representative Burke. You stated in response to a question asked
you by !3enator Townsend that the relations between Mr. Bentley
and Mr. Field 3'ou considered had been rather intimate ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. Do you recall being here in 1912 when you
testified before a conference committee, at which time you made
some statement about there being some period when the relations
between Mr. Field and Mr. Bentley were not as cordial as they had
been ?
Mr. Thackery. Well, they botli at times, especially during the
past four or five yeare, came to me and complained of each other,
apparently having had disagreements, having fallen out. But when-
ever it comes to a show-down they always get together all right.
Representative Burke. To refresh your recollection, and perhaps
you can refresh mine, I recall some statement you made that Mr.
Field liad talked with you quite freely at a time when he and Bentley
had fallen out over an allotment made to one Jim Deer. Do you
recall anything about that?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, I do. I do not remember the details of it, but
I know that Mr. Field related to me that he was having much diffi-
culty in getting Mr. Bentley to handle this particular case the way he
wanted it. TJie allotment in question was that of a deceased daughter
of Jim Deer, from which the restrictions were removed in the 1905
act, and the difference between them was over the handhng of the
funds coming from tlie sale of tliat allotment. They did have at one
time, according to the statement Mr. Field made to me, quite a little
difference about that case.
Representative Burke. Was that over the money involved ?
Mr. Thackery. Over the money involved, as I rememl)er it; yes,
sir.
Representative Burke. Did Mr. Fi(Od toll you the details of the
difference, so that you can relate them ?
Mr. Thackery. No; I do not recall it now. Wliat he told me was
on a trip, I think, into Bacerac, where the Indians resided. I would
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1689
not attempt now to relate the details of the conversation, but I know
that according to his story there had been Quite a difference.
Representative Burke. From your recollection, was there any-
thing about that transaction that would strengthen the opinion that
you had formed that either or both of these gentlemen were not
dealing squarely and honestly -with the Indians ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. Can you relate anything about what gave
you that impression ?
Mr. Thackery. Well, it was the statement that Mr. Field had
made that he could not get Bentley to account, I think, to this Inter-
national Trust C'O. of Delaware. He wanted Bentley, as I remember,
to turn over the funds so that it might he taken up hi that inter-
national company. I would not be sure at this time, but it was
something along that order, and he related the details.
Representative Burke. Do you remember what the amount
involved was 'i
Mr. Thackery. My recollection is that it was very nearly $8,000.
Senator Lane. Now, Mr. Thackery, you were trustee of those
Indians. Was it not your duty to see that their money was expended
properly, and to follow up the transaction ?
Mr. Thackery. As far as I could; yes, sir.
Senator I^ane. You say that you gave no bojid for this, and con-
sequently you left the inference that there was not much responsi-
bility. There has been no one yet to whom you have been held
respondble for this expenditure. Congress made an appropriation
and intrusted it to you, and you are now going to be held re ;]H)n ;ible.
Mr. Thackery. Congress intrusted it, as I understand it, to the
Indians.
Senator Lane. The money has been passed over to you, and
you are now going to be held responsible for it, and there has been
some question about it; I will sa}^ that to you. I am going to ask
you now to file a full statement of your expenditures here, showing
each individual transaction, and your vouchers for the same, if you
can possibly do so.
Mr. Thackery. Of course I would not want to give up my checks.
I am willing to turn them over to you for examination.
Senator Lane. Both of this trust fund and your administration
fund. I want a full and complete statement of it, the same as you
would hand in to a bank in any other business transaction.
Mr. Thackery. What do you mean by the "administration"
fund?
Senator Lane. Where you acted as administrator; I mean, as
guardian.
Mr. Thackery. Of course, the guardian accounts are accounted
for in the courts. That would necessitate a trip to Oklahoma to
get those.
Senator Lane. You filed an accounting with the court, did you
not?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. WeU, you can charge it off to the court, or wherever
it goes. Free yourself of it.
Representative Burke. You do not ask him to account to us in
detail for what the court has approved ?
1690 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Senator Lane. No; we have nothing to do with the court.
Representative Burke. Do 3'OU not think, Mr. Thaekery, for your
own protection, after yon submit these vouchers it would be desirable
from every standpoint to have those vouchers deposited with the
Interior Department in order that they may be preserved ?
Mr. Thackery. I am perfectly wiUing to do that.
(Thereupon at 11. '5 o'clock p. m-. the joint commission proceeded
to the consideration of executive business, and at 11.55 o'clock
p. m. adjourned to meet at the call of the chairman.)
MAY 18, 1914.
Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. C.
FUNDS OF THE MEXICAN KICKAPOO INDIANS.
The joint commission met in room No. 128, Senate Office Building,
at 9.30 o'clock a. m.
Present: Senators Robinson (chairman), Lane and Townsend;
Representatives Stephens, Carter, and Burke.
TESTIMONY OF ME. FEANK A. THACKEEY— Eesumed.
The Chairman. ]\Ir. Thackery, what was the balance you had on
hand when you made the settlement with your successor as superin-
tendent of the Shawnee Agency ?
Mr. Thackery. Well, this account was not balanced and settled
with him. i • a
The Chairman. Did you not turn over a part of the fund to hnn «
Air. Thackery. The funds I received were turned over in this way:
Where I was guardian, he either assumed in a few cases the guardi-
anship himself or I closed up the guardianship and gave the minor^
or the adult in many of these cases — the amount due. And in those
cases, in many of them, we encouraged them to go to Sui)t. Buntin
and turn it over to him as superintendent.
The Chairman. Your accounts with reference to this fund have
been checked over by the clerks of this commission and representa-
tives of the Indian Bureau ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Has a statement of the amounts transferred to the
guardianship account, as shown by your ledger, been prepared ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; that shows the cash transferred.
If I might (explain that a little, this account which you have there
would show a transfer hi cash to the guardianship account of $419.63.
Th(^ Chairman. Whose account is that?
Mr. Thackery. Pc-ah-mah-ske. Now, for this particular Indian,
in addition to that cash, I accounted in my guardianship account for
the total amount which I had previously paid him. That is, as I
remember now, I took his reci ipt for all th(> amount reprcstntod in his
full account, cxceptnig the $419.()3, and included that recipt in my
settlement as guardian, and then took up the cash which I then had
on hand — $419.03 — in the guardian account.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1691
The Chairman. So, as to that Indian, the whole amount-
Mr. Thackery. Was accounted for as guardian under my guar-
dianship account. That is true ^f every account whert^ I was guardian.
The Chairman. How many of th(^ accounts were you guardian in?
Is this a statement of them ? [Exhibiting a paper.]
JVIi*. Thackery. No, sir; that is not all of them. It was approxi-
mat ly 68 or 70 accounts out of 85.
The Chairman. What is that statemi nt '(
Mr. Thackery. This is the cash on hand at the time I transferred
these differc nt accounts to my guardian account, but it does not show
the amount which I had previously paid to the Indian and for
which I took a receipt and which I accounted for in my guardian
accounts in the final setth ment.
The Chairman. Was this amount turned over to Mr. Buntin?
Mi-. Thackery. No, sir; that amount was finally turned over to
the Indian; and, in som^e cases, no doubt, the Indian left parts, at
least, of that money with Mr. Buntin as superintendent, and he took
it up in his official capacity, especially in cases, where tliey were
minors.
The Chairman. Did you turn any of these funds over to Mr.
Buntin ?
Mr. Thackery. I could not be sure, but I do not think I did
directly. We did not find any paper in the Indian Office — papers
which he signed when he receipted to me which showed that he
actually received it from me.
Representative Burke. Just to clear up that point, was there any
way that you could do so ? You had been made trustee, as I under-
stand it, under an act of Congress
Mr. Thackery. No, sir. The comptroller's opinion precluded him
taking it up in his official capacity, although we have another law or
provision that a voluntaiy deposit by an Indian may be taken up by
the superintendent.
Representative Burke. I understand; but, as trustee, you had no
authority to delegate someone else without the consent of the parties
that made you trustee?
Ml'. Thackery. No.
Representative Stephens. Mr. Thackery, if you did turn over any
of these funds to Mr. Buntin did you take a receipt for them ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Have you those receipts, or was it all
in one?
Mr. Thackery. If there were such receipts — if such funds were
turned over the receipts would be on file in the Indian Office, and we
found receipts there where he had receipted for a lot of individual
Indian money; but it is impossible to say positively whether some
of those individual funds represented funds here or not. However,
this is true, that in every guardianship account my guardian account
shows the disposition of the whole amount under my guardian bond,
which has been audited— — -
Representative Burke. That is, in those cases did you account in
your settlement in the local county court for the moneys you had
disbursed of the amount due the ward before you were actually
appointed guardian?
1692
KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Thackery. Not before I was actually appointed guardian; no.
I accounted for all funds which I received durmg the time that I was
guardian. , |
The Chairman. Now, is this a correct list of the amount trans-'
f erred to your guardianship accounts as shown by your ledger?
Mr. Thackery. That is a correct account of the cash transferred]
to the guardian account; yes, sir. |
The Chairman. Let that go in the record. I
(The statement referred to is as follows:)
List of amounts of cash transferred to guarrlianship account of F. A. Thackery, as shown
by his ledger accounts.
Page.
Indian.
Check No.
Amount.
2
10
16
24
40
42
44
58
66
72
82
84
86
90
92
94
96
102
104
IOC
110
114
118
120
124
126
136
138
144
146
150
152
154
164
168
Emma Klckapoo
Me nah quah
Quen me po that
Wah na ke tha
Peah Maw ske .
Peah puck o he
Ah ko the
Henry Murdock
She we nah quah
Men ah the qnah
Mut twuh quah
Wah ne mah wuah
Wah pah nah pe quah.
She pah tho quah
Pen me ah kah quah. .
I nesh kin
Pah mah ka quah
Puck ke shin no
Ke ke e quah
Pah ke che moke
Meek ke the quah
Tah nah ke
Effle Douglas
Mamie Down
Wah que tah no quah .
Kich ke tan o quah
Ah che tha to quah
Mary Neal
Jennie Stevens
Anna Hale
Py ah tho
Purt Peah che that . . .
Mah teck que net nee.
Ko ke ki equah
Nah she pe eth
1027
977
994
995
996
971
998
814
815
997
999
1000
1001
1002
1003
816
1011
972
817
818
873
1012
1013
1014
1015
lOlfl
1017
786
1018
953
934
973
819
1019
974
975
1030
828
1041
SIO.OO
345. 00
12.00
240.00
419.00
880.00
300.00
8.89
5.00
300.00
400.00
549. 34
470.00
200.00
650.00
8.00
575.00
405. 70
10.00
10.00
2.78
79.00
300.00
650. 00
300.00
50.00
525.25
10.00
150.00
920.00
10.00
,072.51
10.00
10.00
577. 84
966. 69
250. 10
10.00
110.00
Total.
11,802.73
Representative Stephens. Do not the probate laws of Oklahoma
provide^ that when accounts are wound up there shall be an older
entered in the record ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Has that been done in these cases?
i\lr. Thackery. I think it has, in every case.
Representative Stephens. Could you get us those orders of
discharge ?
Mr. Thackery. I can, at a considerable expense. I suppose you
would want them certified to. 1 should be glad to get a statement in
any form that you desire.
Re))rescntative Stephens. Most of the piol)nto courts that I have
had anything to do with enter an order of final disc harge.
M
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1693
Mr. Thackery. ^^^lat I meant was that to get it authenticated
would cost in each case possibly a dollar or two.
Representative Stephens. I did not suppose they would charge
you
Ml'. Thackery. I should be glad to get whatever you want.
Representative Stephens. That would be the only way to know
whether or not you had been finally discharged ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes. It was suggested the other day that I could
get a certified copy of the final report, which would show the discharge
and the accounting as well.
Representative Stephens. If we had the final discharge it would
be presumed that the court had passed upon all these accounts.
;Mr. Thackery. Yes. I shall be glad to ^et that if I can. The
accounts are in three different counties in Oklahoma.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, what is the object in having
those records ? If he has been filially discharged what is the use of
going to that expense ?
Representative Stephens. I did not suppose it would be necessary
to go to any great expense.
Representative Burke. In the absence of any suggestion of any
improper conduct in those cases, I do not see why it sliould be necea-
sary.
The Chairman. That is my idea.
Ml-. Thackery. I would be glad to give you a list of the guardian-
ships in the three different counties, and then, if you like, you may
correspond with the judge in each county and find out.
The Chairman. Is not that a list of them right there?
IVlr. Thackery. That is not a list of all of them. That is a list
of the cases where I took up cash.
The Chairman, ^^^lat I want to ask you is, if you found it neces-
sary and thought it proper to account for a part of this fund as
guardian, why you did not do it as to all of them.
Mr. Thackery. I did do it as to all of them. I have not made
myself clear there. Take this account [indicating]. This shows
it has been transcribed to the guardian account. In fact, there is
no cash in this case actually taken up as guardian, but I went to the
court and showed I had received $1,198.25 in this particular case,
and then I produced receipts from the Indians for that amount, and
accounted for it under my guardian bond.
The Chairman. Did you take out letters of guardianship in all
cases ? In what cases did you become guardian ?
Mr. Thackery. I became guardian in tlie cases wherever the Indian
at the time the act of 1906 was passed was still Uving in Oklahoma,
for the pur])ose of preventing liim from becoming a nonresident umler
that act and selUng his land. I did not take those guardianships for
the ordinary purpose, but to protect the Indian's title to his land.
Then when I came to close up these guardianships it was suggested
that, although I had not intended to handle liis funds at all— these
Indians were adults — it was suggested that, in order to have my
guardianship account straight and complete without question, I
should account for these funds. That suggestion did not occur to me
until after I had paid out a lot of this money as trustee; but in order
to put the responsibihty on myself as guardian, under my bond, I
included a statement of what I had received and the receipts therefor
1694 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
in this account, and became responsible for it under that bond to the
court. The court has examined those accounts and given a final
discharge in every case so far as I know.
The Chairman. Now, at the request of the commission, the clerks
of the commission and the representative of the Bureau of Indian
Affairs, Mr. Murphy, went over the vouchers which j^ou have pre-
sented here showdng your payments on account of this fund, and
made a memorandum taking exception to certain items; that is,
calling attention to certain apparent objections to them.
I find in the account of Aiuch-e-ne-ne, check No. 226, July 11, 1908,
for $51.75, that that check is missing. Do you know how that
occurred ?
Mr. Thackery. No, I do not at this time. I recall that that check
was to pay an indeh-tedness he had for clothes, dry goods, etc.
The Chairman. To whom?
Mr. Thackery. I think it was to Johnson & Dickson, Shawnee,
Okla.; but just Avhere the check is now I do not know.
The Chairman. Have you the stub of the check?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. To whom was it payable?
Mr. Thackery. They were all payable to the Indian,
The Chairman. In every case the check v/as made payable to the
Indian ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do 3'ou know whether the check was ever re-
turned to you or not?
Mr. Thackery. I could not be sure.
The Chairman. What bank was it drawn on ?
Mr. Thackery. The Shawnee National, in all cases.
The Chairman. You have no further recollection of the trans-
action ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir. I shall try to locate the check; I think
I can.
The Chairman. In the case of Wah-pe-ke-che it a}:)pears that
there is a discrepancy there of $25. Do you know anvthing about
that ?
Mr. Thackery. I did not know about it until we added up the
account on the adding machine here.
The Chairman. Have you verified that to see whether or no
there is a mistake of (hat kind ?
Mr. Thackery. I think it is a mistake in addition. Wlien the
Indian came in for his last check he, no doubt, said he wanted to
draw the balance due, and in adding it up I evidentl}^ found that
there was $100 due, whereas it should have been $125.
The Chairman. The mistake was then $25 in your favor?
Mr. Thackery. Yes; I owe the Indian, in other words, $25 in
that account.
The Chairman. Now, as to Wah-sko-tak, page 18 of your ledger,
I find a memorandum that he was overpaid $50. How did that
occur, if it is true?
Mr. Thackery. In the same way, I presume.
The Chairman. Have you any personal recollection about thatt
Mr. Thackery. No; I have not.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1695
The Chairman. Have you traced that up smce your attention
was called to it ?
Mr. Thackery. I assisted the clerks here.
The Chairman. And you found there was
Mr. Thackery. That there was a mistake there of that amount;
yes, sir.
The Chairman. And you had overpaid him $50 ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now, as to Stephen Mohawk, page 38 of your
ledger, I find a memorandum here that his check for $300 does not
appear to have been legally indorsed. What do you know about
that ?
Mr. Thackery. I know that the indorsement is not his, but, on
the other hand, it is that of his wife.
The Chairman. Do you know that?
Mr. Thackery. Yes; I know her signature. She writes English.
The Chairman. Will you let us see that if it is convenient to find it ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. He was about dead at that time with
tuberculosis, and my idea would be that he was too sick to attend to
the matter himself, and she signed his name for him. [Handing cheek
to the chairman.]
The Chairman. What was that issued for ? Does your stub show ?
Mr. Thackery. I will look and see. I do not know.
The Chairman. The number is 235.
Senator Lane. July 15, 190S; Stephen Mohawk; for support, $300.
That is the way the stub reads.
Mr. Thackery. His wife was formerly known as Effie Douglas, and
she was an educated girl.
The Chairman. Is that her personal handwriting ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; that is her writing.
The Chairman. I note an indorsement on the back which appears
to be in your writing, I take it, below her indorsement, "paid cash to
Stephen Mohawk."
Mr. Thackery. No; that is not mine.
The Chairman. Who wrote that ?
Mr. Thackery. I do not know. I presume it was the bank. It is
not my writing.
Representative Burke. Did that check for $300 pass through the
bank, and was it returned to you as having been paid ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; it has the stamp of the bank, marked
"paid" on it.
The Chairman. Now, I find three other checks: One numbered
486, for $33.19; another numbered 550, for $224.65; and still a third,
numbered 779, for $25. It is noted in this memorandum that those
chocks were not indorsed by Stephen Mohawk himself. Have you
examined those checks since this was called to your attention ?
Mr. Thackery. I do not believe I have.
The Chairman. That appears to me to be in the same writing as the
indorsement of the check for $300 that you have just spoken of and
which you said was indorsed by his wife, formerly Efhe Douglas.
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. When did he die?
Mr. Thackery. He died — I do not know the date. It must have
been 1909 or 1910; somewhere along abt>ut that time.
1696 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
The Chairman. Did you know him personally at that time?
Mr. Thackery. I did.
The Chairman. What was his physical condition?
Mr. Thackery. He died with tuberculosis, after lingering for some
months.
The Chairman. Was he confined to his bed at the time you speak
of?
Mr. Thackery. Part of the time.
The Chairman. What I am trying to find out is why his wife
indorsed the check instead of him.
Mr. Thackery. I presume it was on account of his sickness. I
think he signed by mark.
The Chairman. The check for $300 has also her indorsement on it.
The other three checks that I have last called to your attention have
not her indorsement. All the four checks to Stephen Mohawk are
stamped as paid by the bank.
Mr. Thackery. I am sure of this, that the checks were all issued
to him prior to his death, and I did not know until this examination
about those indorsements.
The Chairman. Your attention has never been called to them ?
Mr. Thackery. No.
Representative Stephens. Would not the presumption be that the
bank officers themselves would not have paid the money out had
they not been properly indorsed?
The Chairman. It is apparent they were not properly indorsed;
but I think the assumption is he would not know about it if the
bank chose to pay it out on a bad indorsement.
Mr. Thackery. When the bank stamps it "Paid" it assumes the
responsibility, and if the indorsement is not right the bank would be
responsible to me, because they were in each case payable to Steve
Mohawk.
The Chairman. Now, in the case of Peah-puck-o-he, check No.
409, for $52.19, exception is taken to that check because the indorse-
ment docs not appear to have been witnessed.
Mr. Thackery (examinuig the check). It does not show any
witness.
The Chairman. This check is hidorsed by a mark and not wit-
nessed. The check is marked, "Paid" by the bank, July 17, 1908.
The date of the check is July 16, 1908. Have you any personal
knowledge of that indorsement, Mr. Thackery ?
Ml". Thackery. No, sir; I have not.
The Chairman. In the case of Mack Johnson, check No. 221, for
$21, it is stated here that the check is missing.
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know how it happens that you have not
that check ?
Mr. Thackery. I tliink the check was introduced in a case in
court to verify his signature. He wrote his own name.
The Chairman. Do you know whether or not it was ever cashed?
Mr. Thackery. I would not be positive, but my recollection is
that it was cashed, and he was a witness in court in a case in which
an attempt was made to impeach his testimony, and that I was
asked to prodnce his signatuie on vaiious papei-s. I did that, at
least, in several cases, and 1 think this was one. He was an inter-
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1697
preter in that 1906 trouble, and he was used as a witness in a good
many cases.
The Chairman. Now, as to John Snake, it appears that on Novem-
ber 27, 1909, 3^ou took credit for a cash payment of $161. Did you
take any voucher for that?
Mr. TiiACKERY. I did not. I think I can procure receipts from
the doctor and the merchants from whom I bought provisions and
clothing for him during his illness. That was done at a time, I
think, when he was almost dead with tuberculosis.
The Chairman. Did you pay the money to the doctor or to these
creditors ?
Mr. Thackery. In som^e cases I paid the money and in the others
I paid his doctor bill and the bills to grocei-s, etc.
The Chairman. Did you take receipted bills ?
Mr. Thackery. I did not at that time.
The Chairman. How did you know^ what you were paying out?
How did you keep the account ?
Mr. Thackery. I paid the little items as they came along out of
my personal fund^, as I recall it now, and later reimbursed myself.
The Chairman. How did you keep the account?
Mr. Thackery. I had a little memorandum of it.
The Chairman. Have you that here ?
Mr. Thackery. No; I have not. I have not it here.
The Chairman. Let us see your entry on your ledger with refer-
ence to that. [Examining the ledger.] The entiy appears to have
been made November 27, 1909. When were the payments made, if
you know ?
Mr. Thackery. They were made prior to that, but I could not give
you the date.
Representative Burke. Before leaving that account, that seems
to be one whore a payment of $161 was made without any voucher.
Now, is that part}^ dead ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes.
Representative Burke. When did he die ?
Mr. Thackery. He died — I do not know the date, but it must
have been the latter part of 1909 or the first part of 1910.
Representative Burke. What became of the balance of his $1,198 ?
Mr. Thackery. I have checks for all the balance, paid to him
du-ect.
Representative Burke. Whom did he leave*, if you know, in the
way of heirs ?
Mr. Thackery. He left this Joseph Murdock that was before your
commission— no; he left Joseph Murdock's wife — Joseph Murdock is
his brother-in-law — and three other sisters, I believe.
Representative Burke. Has any person at any time ever called
upon you with reference to his account or raised any question with
regard to it ?
Mr. Thackery. Nobody has raised any question with it. I went
over it with a number of people. In fact, his sisters came to me dur-
ing his illness, and I went with them to the camp and made payments
and t(wk him provisions at the suggestion of and with his sisters and
relatives.
Representative Burke. Subsequent to his death has any person
raised any question?
IQQS KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; none whatever.
Representative Stephens. Were you his guardian appointed by the
court? .
Mr. Thackery. Not for this particular Indian; no.
The Chairman. Now, let us go on to check No. 993, to No-sha-she,
for $50. Let us see that check. [Examining check.] That does not
appear to have been stamped "paid" by the bank; but there is writ-
ten, in pencil, across it the word "paid." Wh&t do you know about
tliat? ^ .^ . „ - ^
Mr. Thackery. I did not know that was done until it was called to
mv attention the other day. I want to call attention to the witness
on the back, John W. Jones, who was cashier of this Shawnee National
Bank. He was then and is now cashier of that bank, and he witnessed
the check, and he has evidently written "paid" across the face of the
check, but did not stamp it. • i i
Representative Stephens. It is the custom to stamp it; but do
they sometimes neglect it ? .
jilr. Thackery. There are three or four cases where there is no
stamp, although I think it bears in each case the witness of the
cashier to the signature.
Representative Burke. Do you know whether this check came
back to you through the bank and was charged to your account?
Mr. Thackery. It did.
The Chairman. How do you know that?
Mr. Thackery. I would not have had the check unless it had.
All these checks came to me from the bank — ah that I have.
Representative Burke. I notice it appears to have been on a
spindle.
Representative ^Stephens. Did the bank furnish you a statement
showing the number and the amount of the checks, such as they
usually is ^ue at the request of the depositor, showing the amount of
money on depo.it, the amount of the checks, to whom drawn, and
all that ? ^ ,
Mr. Thackery. When they do submit a statement and return these
canceled checks, it would show the balance on hand and the checks
drawn from that time back to the previous statement.
Representative Stephens. Was this charged again-,t you on the
bank's statement?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. . ^
The Chairman. Dofou know who wi-ote that word "paid ' across
there in pen- il ?
Mr. Thackery. I do not; no, sir.
The Chairman. Do you personally know John W. Jones?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; I know his signature.
The Chairman. Did you ever ask him about this before?
Mr. Thackery. I did not know it until Mr. Keating called m
attention to it the other day. I had never seen it before.
The Chairman. The next check was to this same Indian, No. 610,
for SI 75, and that appears to be in the same condition, not marked
paid by the bank. , , n
Representativo Burke. Before you knxve No. 993, I sliould hkc
him to state, if he knows, what that was for.
The Chairman. Do you know what that was for?
ti|j
4p KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1699
Mr. TiiACKERY. Not without lookiiig it up. [Examining stub
book.] No, I do not. I presume it was oiven to him in cash. The
stub does not show any notation.
Senator Lane. Did you not keep an account of what they were f or ?
ISIr. Thackery. Not in every case; no, sir. I ])aid it in cash in
some cases where they demanded it, and trusted it to them.
The Chairman. This check for $175, No. 610, to jNIo-sha-she, does
not ap]iear to have been stamped or marked paid at alL Do you know
about that ?
Mr. Thackery. I do not.
The Chairman. On that check you are one of the witnesses to the
mark of the Indian, and R. F. Andeison is the other. His indorse-
ment also a])pears on the check. Do you know what that check was
for and whether it was ever paid ?
Mr. Thackery. It was for a horse — I looked it up yesterday, at
the recjuest of ^Ii\ Keating, and the stub shows, I think, that it was
for a horse and something else. I remember this man R. F. Ander-
son was a farmer. I presume he is still living in that locality, but why
the check is not stamped paid I do not know. I know it went to the
bank and came to me. [Examining stub book.] The stub is marked
"one-half on a team and harness."
The Chairman. Have you any recollection of the transaction
further than you have stated ?
^Ir. Thackery. No, sir; I have not.
The Chairman. The next is the case of Tah-pah-she, page 68 of
your ledger. I find here a notation that he was oveipaid -SIO.
a\Ii-. Thackery. It was just an error in addition. I tried to collect
that money, and never got it back.
The Chairman. You discovered that error?
JMr. Thackery. Yes; I had a notation here of that.
The Chairman. In the case of Na-mah-che-tha-quah, check No.
1137 for $25 appears to be missing. Have you any recollection of that
transaction ?
]\Ir. Thackery. No, sir; there are two checks in her account for the
same amount missing.
The Chairman. The other check does not appear to be numbered
from the stub.
jVIt. Thackery. What is the page, please ?
The Chairman. It does not appear what page it is.
jVIi". Thackery. The checks are both missing. I do not have any
personal recollection about that at this time. I am satisfied I can
und the checks in the bank. They were drawn in August, 1910.
The Chairman. What date ?
Mr. Thackery. August 6, 1910. They were payable to two heirs.
This woman had died, and they were payable to her two daughters.
Representative Burke. Is that all in that account?
The Chairman. Yes.
Representative Burke. Were those the last two payments made?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. Is the accoimt closed ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. And no claim has been made of any balance
due?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir.
1700 KICKAPOO INDIANS. ^
The Chairman. In the case of check No. 992 for $30 to Me-thup-
pe-hah, it appears that this check was supposed to be witnessed by
the cashier and not marked paid by the bank on which it was drawn.
Do yon know about that ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; nothing more than what the check
shows.
The Chairman. Tlie check was charged to you ?
j\ir. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Of course, you have no means of knowing whether
the amount of the check was ever actually paid to the Indian?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir. I know it went through the bank,
because it is witnessed by the cashier. It has the signature of the
cashier of the bank on the back of it, and it shows it has been punc-
tured by the spindle on which they stick their checl«, but it is not
marked paid by the bank.
The Chairman. The next check is No. 1052, for $20, to Ke-check-
ko-thah. That check was not marked paid by the bank. Is it
indorsed ?
Mr. Thackery. That check went through our own office and evi-
dently was cashed in our office.
The Chairman. That bears your signature as superintendent to
the mark, and your stamp as superintendent and special disbursing
agent.
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Have you any recollection about it?
Mr. Thackery. No; I have not.
The Chairman. Does 3'our record show what it was for? Have
you any record of what it was for?
Mr. Thackery. I do not think I have that stub here.
Senator TownsenI). This check was drawn on the Shawnee
National Bank?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; aU of them were. It shows here to have
been ])unctm-ed by the spindle.
Senator Townsend. But there is nothing there to show that the
bank ever ]);ud it?
Mr. Thackery. No; there is nothing there. My statement will
show that, I am satisfied.
The Chairman. Your statement from the bank?
Mr. Thackery. My bank statement; yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. You have not that here?
Mr. Thackery. No; I v/ired for it; but for some reason it was not
included with these papers. I M'irofl for everything pertaining to this
matter, and I presume Mrs. Thackery did not find it.
Representative Stephens. This identical matter has been charged
up against you ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; it has been charged against me.
The Chairman. How do you know? Have you ever checked that
account ?
Mr. Thackery. I would not have had the check unless it had
come through the usual channel.
Senator Townsend. You paid this check at the office there ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; tliat is what I should suppose from the
indorsement.
I'hc Chairman. How, did it ever get to the bank, then?
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1701
Mr. Thackery. This must have been deposited in the Bank of
Commerce, in Shawnee, where I kept my official deposit.
Representative Burke. You took cash out of the ch-awer, as I
understand it, and then used this ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. We did that in a number of cases, and I
think in every case where this rubber stamp- I think in every case
of that kind we cashed the check for the Indian at the office, and then
this check went throuijh the Bank of Commerce and around through
the Shawnee National Bank. But why it is not stamped I do not
know.
The Chairman. It appears that several checks were issued to
Mah-ka-tah-ko-thah: No. 35 for $20, No. 36 for $10, No. 39 for $15,
No. 40 for $10, and No. 41 for $95. AH these checks are missing. Do
you know about that '^
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I do not. I only know I have not got
them.
The Chairman. Have you the stubs ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; I think I have — for most of them, any-
way.
The Chairman. Number 35 is the first. [Reading from stub.]
"Expense of trip to Douglas, Ariz., and return, $75.75."
Mr. Thackery. It should be No. 1135.
The Chairman. How much was that for ?
Mr. Thackery. $20; No. 1136, $10; No. 1139, $15; No. 1140, $10;
and No. 1141, $95.
The Chairman. Does your record show what that was for ?
Mr. Thackery. No, it does not.
The Chairman. Have you a stub of it ?
Mr. Thackery. No, I have not.
The Chairman. Do you know how it happens you have neither
stub nor check ?
Mr. Thackery. No; I have the stub, but I have not got it here.
It was apparently overlooked.
The Chairman. In the case of Mah-squah-ko, page No. 112 of your
record, check No. 1068 for $100, that check is not marked paid by the
bank.
Senator Townsend. All these checks that are not marked paid by
the bank are still claims against the United States Indian agency,
are they not ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; they are claims against me as trustee.
Senator Townsend. You drew these in the name of the United
States Indian agency ?
Mr. Thackery. No; they were drawn by me as trustee in every
case. Most of these that are not stamped paid. Senator, have the
signature witnessed by the cashier of the bank. I am sure that the
failure to stamp the check paid on its face is simply an oversight or
an error of the bank.
Representative Burke. It is a very common thing. I can show
you one or more checks in my bank account every month that are
not stamped.
The Chairman. This is witnessed by John W. Jones, who is sup-
posed to be the same cashier who witnessed the other checks, is he
not?
35601— PT 13—14 10
3^702 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Page No. 142 of your ledger, the account ol Mack
Downs. Check No. 881, it appears, was for $100, " to correct error."
IVhat error was that ?
Mr. Thackery. I do not recall now.
The Chairman. Have you any memorandum concerning it?
Representative Burke. It does not show anything here on the
fstub,
Mr. Thackery. There is no notation here.
The Chairman. What does your account show with reference to
that ?
Mr. Thackery. It shows that after his account was closed $100
was deposited and $100 checked out. I do not recall now why that
was. ^ p , •
The Chairman. Have you any way of refreshing your memory
Mr. Thackery. I do not know what it would be, unless I talked to
iiim or his brother.
The Chairman. What is this pencil note there?
Mr. Thackery. "Transcribed to guardian account."
Representative Stephens. Was his estate being administered upon
hy you? . tn p ,i •
'Mr. Thackery. I was his guardian; yes, sir. AU ot this was
accounted for in my guardian account. , , „
The Chairman. Check No. 617 for $82.50. Have you that check?
Do you know Mack Downs's indorsement when you see it ?
Mr. Thackery. He signs by mark.
The Chairman. This is not signed by mark?
Mr. Thackery. No.
The Chairman. Do you know who wrote that indorsement on
Ithere ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I do not.
The Chairman. What was that for?
Mr. Thackery. I think that check was for a buggy and harness at
.& hardware store— the J. L. Roebuck Hardware Co. . . ,
The Chairman. It appears that the check is marked paid by th|
bank. I
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. T
The Chairman. You have no further knowledge of the trans-
duction than that ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I have not.
Representative Stephens. The stub shows it was for a buggy and
"11 Rrn Bss .
The Chairman. Page 150 of your ledger, in the account of Pv-ah-
tho, check No. 712 for $2.50 appears to be missing. Then check
No.' 711 for $40 appears to have been indorsed by mark, but no mt-
ness to mark. Do you know about that ?
Senator Lane. What number was that?
The Chairman. Numbers 712 and 711 were $2.50 and $40,
respectively. The smaller check is missing, and the $40 check was
indorsed by mark, not witnessed.
Senator 'Lane. Are there not a large numl)er, or a good many, oi
>those checks here that have no witness to the mark?
The Chairman. I am going through all of them.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1703
Mr. Thackery. I am not positive about that woman, but I do not
think she could write her name. I think she signed by mark alto-
gether, and 1 do not know whose signature that is
Representative Burke. Can you tell in these cases whether there
was a guardianship or not ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. I wish you would state that in each
instance where these checks are referred to.
Mr Thackery. I was guanhan in this case, and I accounted for
the whole amount as guardian.
Representative Burke. That is important in connection with all
these cases.
The Chairman. Page 134, Milhe Stevens, check No. S26, for $150
It appears that this check was not marked paid. Will you let me see
^f ^7/1 '«/>nT"A'rn-'^if'^-' ^ ^"^^ ^ notation on this check
^o. 826 lor $loO to MiUie Stevens, not marked paid by the bank
Recovery of land and court costs." The check bears the indorse-
ment, apparently of Millie Stevens in her own handwriting, and the
Shawne^ National Bank, of Shawnee, and the First National Bank of
Lloucl, (Jkla. Do you remember al)out that check ^
Mr. Thackery. I would not say that I do especially, more than
It IS my recollection that the check was drawn to provide her with
money to make a tender back to whoever claimed to have purchased
her land. In cases where we fded a suit to recover the land ; that is
m cases where it appeared the Indian had actually received any
money, m hJing a suit we tendered the money back.
The Chairman. Were tlie amounts accepted ?
Mr. Thackery. I do not think they were accepted in any case.
Ihe Chairman. What became of the money then «
Mr. Thackery. If the amount was small, they kept it
Ihe Chairman. In cases of that sort, where it was $150, was it not
repaid to the trustee ? Or was it ever done ?
Mr. Thackery. I would not be sure, now. There were only four
or five cases of that character. I do not think any of it was repaid
Representative Burke. The stub of check No. 826 has this memo-
randum: Recovery of land, $120; court costs, $30." Can you state
whether or not that $120 was for services of attorneys ?
Mr. Thackery. It was not.
Representative Burke. The $30 court costs would be money paid
^ If K''^^'^"'''' and that would not be returned to anybody, would it «
Mr. Ihackery. No, sir. ^ j; •
The Chairman. In the case of Andrew \\Tiipple, is there still a bal-
ance due him ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How much ?
Mr. Thackery. $250.
M^^'r?^'^^^^^'^^" ^^y ^^^ ^^^ account not been settled?
accn.;Ji''.''''''^u''\^'^u''V'^ V^""^'^:''^ Kickapoo, and at the time his
no^o^V T '"^''f /'' ^' '^'''•;^ ^'I^ '^ ^'^^« discovered that he had dis-
Kn wbl^' 'V' ^r\"] 'V^""^'^ 7'^^' ^^' Government brand on
SoV.^. M ^^'^^^"l'^^'f^;l ^»^- l^jm to do, and I refused to pay him the
uu Tfh •' jTlTil^'' "^^^ S^^'^ ^^t^^' that he disappeared,
"1(1 at the time I left Shawnee he had not been heard of yet
]^704 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Senator Lane. Did he take the mules with him ?
Mr. Thackery. He had sold them before he left.
Senator Lane. Did the Government recover them?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir.
The Chairman. What were they worth?
Mr Thackery. $250 is the amount the Government had paid lor
them. They were bought and issued to him with the Government
brand on them. • , . ^i •,
The Chairman. And he had not paid lor them < -,. ,u
Mr Thackery. No; they were issued to him m trust with tne
Government brand. He was not allowed to dispose of them.
Senator Lane. What are you going to do with that lundj
Mr Thicker Y. Mr. Buntin tells me he knows where the leLlow is.
It was finally discovered that he joined the Army. Mr. Buntin tells
me he has heard of that.
Mr. Buntin. He is at Pueblo, Colo. . ,^,• •, +1,.
Senator Lane. What was your intention ? To cover this into the
"^Mr. ^Thackery. My intention was simply to make him bring back
the mules. , . ^ x • i ^.u ,,^,. »
Senator Lane. But he did not do it, and you retained the money i
Mr. Thackery. I retained the money.
Senator Lane. Where is that money now?
Mr Thackery. It is in the Mesa City Bank, Mesa City, Ariz.
Senator Lane. And it never was turned into the Treasury?
Representative Burke. It could not be.
Senator Lane. And it wiU stay there indefinitely, wiU it ^
Representative Burke. It is just another incident connected with
leo-islation that Congress has enacted.
Senator Townsend. How could the Indian return the mulesj
Mr. Thackery. He could go and settle with the man he had sold
Senator Townsend. Do you know who bought the mules ?
Mr. Thackery. No; I do not. , ,,
Senator Townsend. He did not have a right to buy them, anyway i
Mr. Thackery. No, sir. „
Senator Townsend. Did you ever attempt to prosecute the telloAv ?
Mr Thackery. I could not find out who he was. Ihis leliow ad-
mitted seUing them somewhere in the Indian Territory, but I could
^"^Senato? hlS^. Are you sure he sold them ? How do you Imow he
sold them? d
Mr Thackery. He said he did. ^ fl
The Chairman. I see a smaU check, No. 717, for $6.90, to Joseph
Murdock, which does not appear to be among your vouchers here
Is that the same Joseph Murdock that has been here as an inter-
^^m. Thackery. Yes, sir. I was legal guardian in his case and
accounted for all his funds. ,1 ^ , +i,^ ofntntr^
Representative Burke. Before you leave that, does the statute
which makes it an ofi'ense to purchase I. D. property from an Indiac
extend to the Indian himself selling it ?
Mr. Thackery. I am not sure about that.
Mr. Bentley. No; it does not.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1705
Representative Burke. Then this Indian could not have been
prosecuted ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir. He was an adopted Indian and, to every
practical purpose, a white man, and I believe he should be required
to return the mules.
Representative Burke. There is no question about that.
The Chairman. Page 180 of vour ledger, the following checks to
Wah-pah-no-kah: Check No. 1079, $25; No. 1057, $20; No. 104S,
$40; No. 1088, $40.10; and No. 922, $69.40. It appears that these
were indorsed b}^ mark, but that there was no witness to the mark.
Senator Lane. Here is check No. 1079. I have been picking some
of these out. Here is a check drawn in favor of Wah-pah-no-kah
with no witness to his mark. Is that all right ? Is that proper ?
]\Ir. Thackery. No, sir; it is not proper.
Senator Lane. That is not the only one; I notice a number pay-
able to Wah-pah-no-kah. There are five of those, and there is no
sign there that Wah-pah-no-kah ever received that money, and there
is no evidence that he knew anything about that transaction.
. Mr. Thackery. It is true that none of those are witnessed. How-
ever, they are all marked paid by the bank and the bank would be
responsible to me if the payment is improperly made.
Senator Lane. Yes, but you are responsible to the Indian and to us ?
Mr. Thackery. I drew this check payable to the order of this
Indian and gave it to her, and it bears not only the stamp of the bank
showing that it was paid, but it has the puncture there in the check
also, showing that it had been through the bank. Now, if it can be
shown that the Indian did not get the money, the bank is responsible
for it.
Senator Lane. Yes, but it would be a rather difficult thing to
show that. It ought to show on the check that the Indian did get
the money.
Mr. Thackery. Of course, I was located 2^ or 3 miles from town
and I could not follow every Indian over there.
Senator Lane. No, but you could make a request of the bank
that they have these signatures verified ?
Mr. Thackery. Well, we did that, but in a case where there are
so many checks
Senator Lane. There are not any large sums; I think the highest
is $69, but there is nothing on the check that shows that that Indian
ever received the money, or what it was given to him for. What did
he buy with this, do you suppose ? AVhat was this issued for ?
Mr. Thackery. I could not tell at this time.
Senator Lane. What do you suppose?
Mr. Thackery. They were used for her provisions and support.
I think this woman — her husband built a house on her husband's
allotment.
Senator Lane. Were these payments on a house?
Mr. Thackery. I know that payments out of this particular fund
helped to build a house. The indorsement on these checks is in the
handwriting of an officer of the Shawnee National Bank, which can
be easily established.
Senator Lane. If they had purchased any groceries they would
have received a bill for it, would they not ? Did you not have bills
turned into you ?
1706 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; we did not go that far with it. I could
not assume so much responsibiUty as that in connection with the
other work which I had.
Senator Lane. Are these all made out in your handwriting?
Mr. Thackery. The face of them ?
Senator Lane. Yes.
Mr. Thackery. Most of them are.
Senator Lane. Did you have a clerk to help you ?
Mr. Thackery. Not in this particular matter, with the exception,
perhaps, of a very few occasions.
Senator Lane. How many checks are there in all here in your
trusteeshin •
Mr. Thackery. I should say 1,500 ur 2,000.
Senator Lane. Running over a period of how many months?
Mr. Thackery. Possibly two years.
Senator Lane. That wo\dd not entail a great deal of clerical work.
To keep pretty close track of that number of checks would not tax a
man's time very greatly ? ...
Mr. Thackery. If you are going to go into every little item the
Indian wanted to purchase, it would take a great deal of time, espe-
cially when we were already burdened with all the work we could do.
Senator Lane. Would you pay this to the Indian after he had made
a purchase of groceries or give him the money to make a purchase
with ?
Mr. Thackery. Where an Indian was going to buy groceries, we
asked them as they came in for their money, "Wliat do you want it
for?" and if it was a matter of groceries or household supphes we
gave them a check without saying much more about it.
Senator Lane. Had you ever thought of the idea of giving him an
order on the grocer, stating that it would be good for a certain amount'
at any grocery store, and having that returned to you O. K.'d?
Mr. Thackery. I did not thir.k then and I do not thitdv no\y that
that would have been advisable, because that would have subjected
us to charges of favoritism. If we gave it to the Indian
Senator Lane. I said, to any store.
Mr. Thackery. I understand, but it would not have mattered what
store we would have given that on, we would have been charged with
favoritism.
Senator Lane. That is not a fair answer to my question.
Mr. Thackery. You are asking if this thing occurred to me. It
did occur to me, but it was not followed for the reasons which I am
trying to give. In handUng small amounts of money I suppose the
Indian acquires a business experience or education, and I do noo ihink
that he can be placed upon his own responsibility if you are going to
follow him up and see to every little bit of expenditure. Perhaps it
may be that being cheated once in a while will be the best experience
that can come to him.
Senator Lane. He has been cheated consistently for a long time,
and he ought to be an experienced business man by this time if that is
true.
Now then, did you, on the other hand, make any request ol the
grocers or the Indians that the receipted bills be returned to you for a
voucher in any case ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 170T
Senator Lane. You gave him a check, and then he went to the
bank and drew the money, did he ?
Mr. Thackery. Not in all cases.
Senator Lane. I find mostly that he did, though, did he not?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; not most of them.
Senator Lane. Do you find many of the grocers' indorsementSj,
and other business men's indorsements on these checks ?
Mr. Thackery. A good many of them; yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Very many?
Mr. Thackery. A large number; yes, sir.
The Chairman. About what proportion, would you suppose?
Mr. Thackery. I should say three-fourths of them bear the in-
dorsements of merchants or farmers.
Senator Lane. I had not noticed that.
Mr. Thackery. The ones you have there are the ones the examin-
ing committee took exception to. Every one you are speaking of is
noted on this list.
The Chairman. Those are the checks I have just been asking;;
about.
Representative Burke. In connection with this Indian, Wah-
pah-no-kah, was there a guardianship in this case ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir.
Representative Burke. She was one of the homeless Indians.
The other Indians contributed the amount shown. Has Wah-pah-r^
no-kah or anybody for her ever made any claim to you that she did
not receive the money represented by these checks ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; none of them have. I have been away
from there for two years and a half, and Sui)t. Buntin, who is present^
has had charge of that. I shoukl be glad if the committee would
inquire of him.
Representative Burke. I will ask the other gentleman, then^
whether or not this Indian has made any claim or representation
that she did not receive the money that that check represented ?
Mr. Buntin. She has not to me.
The Chairman. Did you ever hear her say anything about the
checks ?
Mr. Buntin. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know of your own knowledge whether
such checks were ever issued or not ?
Mr. Buntin. No, sir; I do not.
Senator Townsend. Did these Indians know what was coming-
to them ?
Mr. Buntin. I believe they did. A number of them have talked
to me about it.
Senator Townsend. Do you think that the Indians universallji"
knew how much money was due them out of this trustee fund ?
Mr. Buntin. A number of them have told me the amount that was.
due them.
Representative Stephens. Do you know this woman, Wah-pah-
no-kah ? ,
Mr. Buntin. No, sir.
Representative Carter. Mr. Thackery, I want to ask you a ques-
tion about the payment of these checks. How far (hd you say youf
agency was from the bank ?
1708 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Thackery. About two miles and a half.
Representative Carter. You gave the check to the Indian, as a
rule, and he took it to some other person to be cashed ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. You only cashed the small checks where
you gave the Indian money for his immediate use ? Or did you do
that %
Mr. Thackery. We cashed a few at the office at the request and for
the convenience of the Indian, but they were in all cases, so far as I
recall now, small checks. We did not carry much cash on hand.
Representative Carter. You told the Shawnee National Bank, on
which these checks were drawn, that you wanted the Indian to have
his mark witnessed, did you ?
Mr. Thackery. Oh, yes; we called their attention to that in a
number of cases. I know in the first few bank statements that came
back there were a few that I did not consider properly witnessed, and I
returned them to the bank and called their attention to it, and told
them that they must assume the responsibility in those cases. These
others that came back came at a later day, and they have not been
reviewed by me until this examination.
Representative Carter. What was done when you returned them ?
What do you mean by turning them back ?
Mr. Thackery. I asked the bank officer who had signed the
Indian's name on the back to put his name with it as a witness. I
did that in a few cases.
Representative Carter. But he has not done it in these cases.
Mr. Thackery. These have not been called to his attention, I
suppose.
Representative Carter. When did you first notice that these were
not properly indorsed ?
Mr. Thackery. Two or three days ago, when Mr. Keating, Mr.
Williams, and Mr. Murphy here in this room w^ere examining them.
Representative Carter. I ffiid one check here for $100 to Wah-
pah-no-kah that has not any indorsement on it at all, and it is pay-
able to order.
Mr. Thackery. Yes; it has the stamp of the bank on the face,
marked "Paid."
Representative Carter. It has the stamp of the bank, but they
did not have it properly indoreed. You disclaim any responsibility
for the bank doing that ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; the bank is responsible to me for the
wrong pajmient of the money.
Senator Lane. I notice here the case of Ah-ten-y-teck. Do you
know sucli an Indian ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes.
Senator Lane. Is that his name ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes.
Senator Lane. A check is paid to him. In many cases lie has
signed by mark with a pen, and in a large number of otliers he has
signed his own name.
Mr. Thackery. You will find tJiat in several cases. He can sign
his own name.
Senator Lane. WJiy should h(^ not do so at all times?
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1709
Mr. TiiACKERY. Just because ho prefers not to if he cashes his check
with somebody that does not know that he can sign it.
Senator Lan'e. Wlio was W. F. Dickens ?
Mr. ThackerY. He was a clerk in the office.
Senator Lane. Your office ?
Mr. TuACKERY. Yes sir.
Senator Townsend. Did every one of these Indians understand
how much money was coming to th.em ?
Mr. TiiACKERY. You mean, did they understand the amount com-
ing to them in each case? Yes, they did.
Senator Townsend. And do they now ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, they understood tlie amount that was coming
to them, and ahiiost every time when they came in to get a check they
would ask ]iow much they had left.
Senator Townsend. They would not know?
Mr. Thackery. Tliey would not know accurately, no. They would
have a sort of way of keeping track of an account, mostly by memory.
They can not read or write.
Senator Townsend. But there was an op})ortunity to defraud
Indians who did not know how much money they had and kept no
track of what they had due them?
Mr. Thackery. There was.
Senator Townsend. Then it was of the utmost importance that
every possible check should be employed, was it not?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. Now, here are some checks that have not been
indorsed, checks that have not been witnessed where the signature
was by mark, checks that the bank's "paid " stamp is not on. It would
be possible, would it not, for those checks to have been issued by you
and payments never made to the Indians at all ; and unless they were
able to prove that they had not received the money, or not knowing
that they had the money coming, should never make any attempt
to prove it, they would be defrauded out of their money?
Mr. Thackery. That would be possible; yes, sir. But I call your
attention to the fact that the number of checks and the amounts
represented in those checks to which any exception has been taken
are very small compared with the whole account. They represent
comparatively a very smaU part of tlie total, and in the cases you
speak of where some of the checks are not stamped ])aid by the bank
the indorsement of the bank is witnessed by the cashier of the bank,
and it is evident that his failure to stamj) it paid was simply an over-
sight.
Senator Townsend. Even in that case it might have been paid
to the wrong man.
Mr. Thackery. There is always that possibility in any of our
financial dealings with the Indisuis.
Senator Townsend. I see that, and that is what im])resses me
very strongly with the need of every possible check in order to dis-
close whether this money was properly distributed.
Mr. Thackery. You understand, I think, that I realized that in
the beginning. In the first place, I did not want to assume the
trusteeship, and at the council which decided who was to receive this
money and dispose of it for the Indians — at which council there were
present Inspector McLaughUn, of the Interior Department, and Gen.
1710 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Hugh L. Scott, of the Army — we all tried to get those Indians, the
Oklahoma Indians, to name Secretary Garfield, then Secretary of the
Interior, as their trustee; and they objected to that because he was so
far away, and insisted that some one at Shawnee should have their
money where they could go and get it as they needed it without delay.
Then, after it was decided by unanimous vote of those people that I
should be trustee for those in Oklahoma, I came here to Washington
and executed an official bond to cover this total amount, and asked
for its approval ; but the act of Congress had been so worded that the
.comptroller held that that could not be done.
Senator Townsend. I understand that. Now, supposing some
lawyer, some claim agent, or somebody else goes out among those
Indians, and makes out some pretty good cases to the effect that they
have not received their money, what protection have you ?
]Mi'. Thackery. I have all of these vouchers, these canceled checks,
and the bank statements, showing that it was paid in accordance with
this act of Congress.
Senator Townsend. Have you settled with the banks ?
Mr. Thackery. Not entirely; no.
Senator Townsend. Have you statem'^nts from the banks stating
they have paid all these sums representing these checks here ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. Do you think the bank would be responsible
to the Indian, then, on these checks?
Mr. Thackery. The bank would have to be responsible for any
wrong payment on any check which bears their stamp.
Senator Townsend. But those which do not bear their stamp
Mr. Thackery. In those cases I presume I am responsible as
trustee, but the amount in those cases would not be over $200 or $300
at the outside.
Senator Lane. How did the Indians make their mark^ in signing
by mark ?
Mr. Thackery. At that time the practice was simply to touch the
pen.
Senator Lane. Merely touch the pen ?
Mr. Thackery. The person signing their name would write it, and
then put the X there, and hold the pen there while they touched it.
Senator Lane. The Indian would not make the cross at all ?
Mr. Thackery. He did not actually make the cross.
Senator Lane. I noticed that. These marks are made, the major-
ity of them, by one person.
Senator Townsend. I do not know what the law is there, but with
u> the law is that anybody can authorize another to sign his name.
If that can be shown
Senator Lane. But it would have to be shown in each individual
case.
The Chairman. There are a few more checks here that you have
not been specifically asked about. Check No. 477 for $36. SC, page
180, was given to Ke-nah-ke-the-quah. (After examining the check.)
That does not appear to have been indorsed by the Indian at all, but
is indorsed by James H. Wood. Do you know him '(
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I do not know him. The check stub in
that case shows it was for a sewine: machine.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1711
The Chairman. Now, page 162 of your record, check No. 859 for
$199.50, to Nah-mah-go-the. That is indorsed by mark, and the
mark is not witnessed. [After examining the check.] That appears
stamped paid by the bank, October 14, 1908, but the mark of the
payee is not witnessed. You have no personal knowledge of that
transaction other than stated ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I know that the Indian could not sign hia
name.
The Chairman. You know him, do you?
Mr. Thackery. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you know what that was for?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I do not. He was a nonresident Indian
who lived at the Kiowa and Comanche Agency. He was one of the
homeless Indians that the other Indians took care of. I only knew
him slightly. He made a trip over there on that occasion and drew
the balance of his money. I do not know what it was for. He went
back home with it.
The Chairman. The following checks were drawn to Me-she-kah-
tah-no: No. 1045, $100; No. 1032, $50; No. 920, $200; making in
all $350. All those checks appear to have been indorsed by mark and
the mark not witnessed. Do you know who actually indorsed that,
Mr. Thackery ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; I do not.
The Chairman. Do you know whose wi-iting that is in the indorse-
ment ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir.
The Chairman. Or this check, No. 1032?
Mr. Thackery. I could not be sure. I am reasonably sure it is a
man named Askew, assistant cashier in the Shawnee National Bank.
The Chairman. Are they both apparently indorsed by the same
person ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. There is one more yet, and that, apparently, is
indorsed in the same way by the same person ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; they are all marked "paid" by the bank.
As to why they were not witnessed, I do not know.
The Chairman. In the account of Tah-nah-ke-ah, page 148, it
appears that there was an error there of $50. Is that in your fav.or or
in the Indian's favor ?
Mr. Thackery. Mine.
The Chairman. Do you know how that happened?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; excepting that it must have been a mis-
take in addition.
Senator Lane. What was the total amount of his account?
Mr. Thackery. $1,198.24.
The Chairman. Now, in your ledger accounts it appears that two
items have been disclosed where mistakes were made in your favor
and two other items where the mistakes Avere in the Indians' favor.
Did you undertake to verify the computations as to these accounts ?
What verification did you make of them ?
Mr. Thackery. They have not been added on a machine until the
accounting a few days ago. The additions previous tb that had just
been by running up the column personally. There were four mistakes
found in the 85 or 90 accounts.
1712 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
The Chairman. Wliere these checks were issued by you, what
precautions, if any, did you take to see that the Indian actually
received the money or the benefit of the check ? Did you undertake
to follow the check or the money into the hands of the Indians and
see what they did with it ?
Mr. Thackery. As to the larger amounts, yes, we did do all we
could to see that it went to a good purpose. If they were bujnng
stock or implements of any considerable value we required the per-
son from whom they were to purchase the goods either, in the case
t)f stock, to bring it to the agency and we would send an employee
out to inspect it, or, in the case of hardware, we would send some-
body to look it over to see that the Indian got value for his money.
In the case of improvements on their land, that was usually super-
vised by one of the district farmers or other employees of the agency.
We built some 15 or 20 houses. We also built a number of sheds and
fences and other improvements of that character, all of which was
supervised by some employee.
Senator Lane. What would be the average cost of the houses ?
Mr. Thackery. About $550 to $600, or something like that.
They were mostly four-room houses, frame, usually having two
porches at least, and th^y were finished with plaster.
The Chairman. How often was your account as trustee balanced
with the S.hawnee National Bank ?
Mr. Thackery. I do not think it was at any regular period. I
remember asking for a balance several times, and I think they only
furnished it at irregular periods.
The Chairman. What investigation did you make to determine
whether or not the bank was keeping a correct account, and whether
or not the checks which you issued w^ere actually being paid ?
Mr. Thackery. I had a man named Grecian — Isaac Grecian — to
go over the larger bank statements and check them up mth my
stubs and this book which I have here.
The Chairman. Did he discover any of these checks that were not
properly indorsed, or any of them that were not marked paid by the
bank?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; he found a few of them.
The Chairman. "What did you do about that ?
Mr. Thackery. We called the attention of the bank to it. I do
not remember discovering any that had not been stamped paid, but
I do remember we discovered a few that had not been properly wit-
nessed on the back.
The Chairman. WTiat did you do about that ?
Mr. Thackery. We took them over to the bank and asked them,
whoever had written the Indian's name to witness it.
Senator Lane. Was it not your more important duty to look out
for that portion of the check wherein the Indian's signature was
attached to it, rather than to the bank's statement ?
Mr. Thackery. We called the Indians in and asked them, in many
cases. Senator, and the check was there, and they had received the
money.
Senator Lane. It would seem to me that as a trustee for the Indian
it would be your duty to protect him even against the bank, if it was
necessary.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1713
Mr. Thackery. Certainly.
Senator Lane. And even though the mark of the bank showed that
they had paid it, if it was not properly indorsed, would immediately
put you to work finding out how the Indians had been represented in
the matter.
Mr. Thackery. We inquired of the Indian in any case where there
was any question of that kind.
Senator Lane. I think you have stated here that the stamp of the
bank that it had been paid and the fact that it had been filed was
sufficient evidence to you
Mr. Thackery. No, I did not intend you to understand me that
way. What I intended to say about that was that the stamp of the
bank made the bank responsible to me or to the Indian if a mistake
could later be shown.
Senator Lane. If it could be shown, but it would be very hard to
show that at this time, would it not ? You have a large number now,
Mr. Thackery. It is not a large number, Senator ■
Senator Lane. You have a large number where the name has not
been properly certified ?
Mr. Thackery. I do not consider it a large number in comparison
with 2,000 checks. I consider it very small. There are not over 10
or 15 at the outside, to which any exception is made.
The Chairman. You are mistaken about that.
Mr. Thackery. The list shows
Reprosentative Burke. You mean 10 or 15 Indians?
Mr. Thackery. Ten or fifteen accounts.
The Chairman. There are more than that. There are 25 accounts,
and some of those accounts cover as many as five checks that are
excepted to. Some of them have only one that is questioned.
Mr. Thackery. Some of those, however, show overdrafts. There
are a couple of them.
The Chairman. Yes, there are two overdrafts, as I pointed out
before; two mistakes in favor of the Indians and two against them.
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Wliat I want to find out is, when you discovered
that a check you had given one of these Indians had not been prop-'
erly indorsed, what action did you take to find out why the Indian
had received the money ?
Mr. Thackery. We inquired of the Indian about it, and then talked
with the btmk also.
The Chairman. Do you remember the explanation that was
offered as to any of these checks?
Mr. Thackery. I remember that in no case did I find that the
Indian had not received the money named in the check.
The Chairman. And when that fact was ascertained, that tlie
bank was paying money illegally and their attention was called to
the error they had made, was it not then corrected ?
Mr. Thackery. It was done in the cases we called their attention
to. These checks come in after this.
The Chairman. Notwithstanding you had raised this question
as to the propriety of the manner in which they were paying these
checks, after that the checks which we have called your attention
to here were paid ?
1714 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Thaokery. Yes, sir. There were some 8 or 10 employees in
this particular bank, and these mistakes you call my attention to
The Chairman (interposing). Did you find any instance where
the check was cashed and the Indian only received a part of the
money ?
Mr. Thackery. I do not recall any case of that kind.
The Chairman. By way of illustration, I will state that at some
banks elsewhere the custom appears to be quite general of taking
an Indian's note for, say, $100, and giving him actually S50, or taking
his check for $200, and paying him actually $100; that is a practice
that is quite common at some banks, not, however, so far as I know,
any bank that you had dealings with. Did you find any case of
that sort?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; not in that way.
The Chairman. It seems to be a systematic method of dealing
with the Indians.
Representative Burke. That is, that the Indian brings his check
to the bank and the bank gives the Indian the note ?
The Chairman. No; if the Indian takes a check to the bank to get
It cashed, if the amount of the Indian's check is $100, the bank cashes
it and gives the Indian $50; if the Indian borrows $100 from the
bank, he gives a note for $200, and pays interest to the bank at 10
per cent, or 4 per cent in excess of the legal rate, and sometimes the
interest is taken out in advance.
Representative Burke. That is a revelation to me ; I did not know
anything of that kind was transpiring.
The Chairman. Nevertheless, it apparently happened at certain
banks in Oklahoma ; however, not at the Shawnee National Bank.
Representative Burke. Mr. Thackery, I assume that the checks
that you issued to these Indians, as a rule, were presented to the bank
upon which they were drawn within a very short time after the check
was issued, were they not ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. So that when you received a statement
with canceled checks, you would receive practically all of the checks
that had been issued up to that time.
Mr. Thackery. Practically all, yes ; there were a few exceptions.
Representative Burke. You seem to have your checks here, nearly
all of them, and have them in very good order. Where are the state-
ments that the bank made you when they returned canceled checks
from time to time ?
Mr. Thackery. They are either at Shawnee, Okla., or at Sacaton,
Ariz.
Representative Burke. Can you produce those statements ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; I shall get them and send them to this
commission at once.
Representative Burke. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that unless those
statements are produced that the bank be called upon to furnish a
statement from his account.
Mr. Thackery. They can do that.
Representative Burke. It is a matter that can very easily be
cliecked up.
Mr. Thackery. Before leaving Shawnee they were turned over to
this Mr. Crecian, whom I mentioned, to go over the account and check
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1715
them all up, but whether or not he gave them back to me and whether
I took them with me to Arizona or not I do not know. But I do
know that in telegraphing for every account to be sent on, I supposed
they would send all they could find, but those are not included with
those that came.
Representative Stephens. Did you transfer your account from
Shawnee, Okla., to Sacaton, Ariz., your trust account that you speak
of?
Mr. Thackery. Yes. There is only a small amount left, however.
■ Representative Stephens. About what balance was it that you
transferred ?
Mr. Thackery. I do not remember exactly; I wall have to look
that up.
Representative Stephens. Have you paid out any funds since
you came to Sacaton?
Mr. Thackery. Not on this trust fund.
Representative Stephens. Have any of these Indians whose
checks seemed to be irregular ever demanded payment of you ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir.
Representative Stephens (addressing Mr. Buntin). Has any de-
mand been made upon you for any of these checks which seemed to
have been irregular ?
Mr. Buntin. Only one Indian ever questioned that.
Representative Stephens. Who was that ?
Mr. Buntin. Wah-sko-tah, who had been married, and who was
the widow of Wah-squah-ko.
Representative Stephens. How much was that amount in ques-
tion?
Mr. Buntin. Wah-squah-ko was killed by the train, the women's
first husband, and she came down with her husband and claimed that
he did not believe that the full amount had been received. He did
not know, he said, because the man was killed by the train, and they
wanted me to make inquiry whether or not Mr. Thackery had paid
the full amount before he was killed, as they did not know. That is
the only one they ever questioned.
Representative Stephens. Did you make the inquiry?
Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir; I made the inquiry.
Representative Stephens. What did you ascertain about it ?
Mr. Buntin. Well, the information was that the account had been
paid in full.
Representative Stephens. How did you get that information?
Mr. Buntin. From Mr. Thackery. I just took it up with Mr.
Thackery and made inquiry of him, and then I have gone over his
books to see and to notice the checks. This inquiry was recently
made.
Representative Stephens. Then what report did you make to the
Indian ?
Mr. Buntin. I have not made the Indian any report. It has not
been six weeks since the check was called in question.
Representative Stephens. What was the amount involved?
Mr. Buntin. The Indians told me that they knew that they had
received S600, and did not know whether any more had been received
or not or had ever been paid to the man before he was killed.
Representative Stephens. Something like $600 ?
1716 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. BuNTiN. Something like that. They did not know for sure,
and wanted to know whether he had got all his money before he was
killed. That is the only account they ever called in question.
The Chairman. Is there any objection to this statement going into
the record ?
Representative Stephens. I think not.
The Chairman. Here is a condensed statement of the items that
have been criticized.
Mr. Thackery. I have no objections.
Representative Stephens. It is the matter we have been investi-
gating all day.
(The statement here submitted by the chairman is as follows:)
MEXICAN KICKAPOOS — EXCEPTIONS TO THACKERY's ACCOUNT.
Page.
4. Much-e-ne-ne, check No. 226, July 11, 1908, $51.75 missing.
8. Wah-pe-ke-che, short on account $25.
18. Wah-sko-tak, $50 overpaid.
38. Stephen Mohawk, check No. 235, $300, not legally indorsed.
38. Stephen Mohawk, check 486, $33.19, payee's name indorsed by another person.
38. Stephen Mohawk, check No. 550, $224.65, payee's name indorsed by another
person.
38. Stephen Mohawk, check No. 779, $25, payee's name indorsed by another person.
42. Peah-puck-o-he, check No. 409, $52.19, no witness to indorsement.
60. Mack Johnson, check No. 221, $21, check missing.
64. John Snake, November 27, 1909, $161.09, cash payment.
6. Mo-sha-she, check No. 993, $50, not marked paid by bank drawn on.
6. Mo-sha-she, check No. 610, $175, not marked paid by bank drawn on.
68. Tah-pah-she, overpaid $10.
70. Na-mah-che-tha-quah, check No. 1137, $25, missing.
70. Na-mah-che-tha-quah, check (no number), $25, missing.
74. Me-thup-pe-hahm, check No. 992, $30, witnessed by person supposed to be
casliier and not marked "paid " by the bank on which it is drawn.
88 Ke-check-ko-thah, check No. 1052, $20, not marked "paid" by the bank.
lOo! Mah-ka-tah-ko-thah, checks 1135 for $20, 1136 for $10, 39 for $15, 1140 for $10,
and 1141 for $95, all missing.
112. Mah-squah-ko, check No. 1068, $100, not marked "paid" by bank.
142. Mack DoAvns, check No. 881, $100, to correct error, can not find how error
occurred.
150. Py-ah-tho, check No. 712, $2.50, missing.
150. Py-ah-tho, check No. 711, $40, no witness to indorsement by mark.
134. Millie Stevens, check No. 826, $150, not marked "paid" by bank.
160. Andrew \Mupple, balance on hand in Ms favor of $250.
170. Joseph Murdock, check No. 717, $6.90, missing. .«,„ ,^
180. Wah-pah-no-kah, checks 1079 for $25, 1057 for $20, 1048 for $40, 1088 for $40.10,
992 for $69.40; no witness to mark indorsement.
180. Ke-mah-ko-the, check 945, $100, no indorsement. , t tt
180. Ke-mah-ko-the, check 477, $36.80, no indorsement. Indorsement by Jas. H.
Wood. Thackery does not know Wood.
162. Nah-mah-go-the, check 859, $199.50, no witness to marked indorsement.
176. Me-she-kah-tah-no, check 1045, $100, no witness.
176. Me-she-kah-tah-no, check 1032, $50, no witness.
176. Me-she-kah-tah-no, check 920, $200, no witness.
148. Tah-nah-ke-ah, $50 short.
Senator Townsend. What steps did you take to find out w^hether
that man had received all of his money or not ? ■
Mr. Buntin. I took it up with Mr. Thackery to learn whether he
had received all his money or not.
Representative Stephens. Was there a letter from Mr. Thackery
that he had received all his money.
i
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1717
Mr. BuNTiN. Yes; and then I examined his account on his books
there to see just how it had been paid out.
Representative Stephens. Did jou explain it to the Indian then ?
Mr. BuNTiN. I have not. No; it was just recently the matter was
taken up with me.
The Chairman. Both Mr. Thackery and Mr. Buntin were to leave
the city to-day. 1 would Hke to complete the examination of both
of them before they go.
Senator Lane. It is going to be a httle difficult to do that.
I notice check No. 235. Do you know who that was to— "Stephen
Mohawk, for support, $300." That is what your stub shows. What
do you mean by that ? Let us see the check.
(At this point Mr. Thackery handed to Senator Lane a check.)
It says, "Paid cash, $300, for Mohawk"— this is in lead pencil—
and charged up to support.
Mr. Thackery. I do not know delmitely. 1 could not testify as to
that now. As i have said, in some of these cases the Indian insisted
on receiving cash, and under this law that appropriated this money
he had undoubtedly a right to receive it that way, and I had not
sufficient authority to compel them to spend it for purposes whicli 1
thought he ought to spend it. ^
Senator Lane. Why did you mark it "paid for support" ?
Mr. Thackery. Because he told me what that was for. He had
been in Mexico for some time, and he had left bills here and there
that had not been paid, and he wanted to pay up Ids biUs here and
there.
Senator Lane. And you really did not know much about it when
you paid him?
Mr. Thackery. I had his word for it. I did not know much about,
perhaps, just what he would use it for.
Senator Lane. I was taking that as an indication. It means more
to me than it would to some others, for the reason that I have handled
such accounts as these myself, individual accounts, in large numbere,
but I could not understand from such an indefinite explanation how
the expenditure of the sum of $300 was made. There is not a
voucher or a bih, or anything, to accompany it; no requisition and no
O. K'd bih, but just a statement "for support" in lead pencil on the
stub and the check indorsed by the Indian. You submit this as
trustee of an incompetent person. I beheve you stated these Indians
were aU mcompetent, but I see they can write, and some are not so
incompetent but what they can write.
Senator Townsend. The trouble about that is, the law turned
this money over to him to spend just as he pleased.
Senator Lane. I know that
Mr. Thackery. Not as I pleased, but as the Indians pleased.
Senator Lane (continuing). But the manner of keeping his ac-
counts— ^lie owed it to himself to keep them so he could explain them ;
he owed that debt to himself; it was the gi-eatest debt that he owed
mmself, greater than any other obligation of any other sort; and h^
also owed it to the Congress. Under existing conditions, anybody
can conie in here maliciously, if they want, and accuse him of having
used this money personally, and he caii not disprove it.
Mr. Thackery. Yes, I can, Senator.
35601— PT 13—14 11
1718 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Senator Lane. You can do it with that chock?
The Chairman. These checks of Stephen Mohawk were not in-
dorsed by him at all, although his name is on them. The writing
was done by his wife, who was formerly Effie Douglass, who appeared
to have signed all the checks of Stephen Mohawk.
Mr. Thackery. Not all of them. ;
The Chairman. That have been questioned here? '
Mi\ Thackery. Yes.
The Chairman. And there are three of them, if I remember cor-
rectly. On the first she signed his name and then hers; and on the
other two, she signed his name.
Senator Lane. These are questioned, you know. Mi". Thackery.,
There has been a question raised concerning them, and so we are
entitled to an explanation of them, without prejudice.
Mr. Thackery. My contention along that line, Senator, is this:
That if this act of Congress had given me any authority at law where i
I could compel an Indian to spend his money for any particular pur-
pose, then I would have had some authority on which to stand, and I
made a better showing, but under that law the Indian could come in I
and demand his money, and I was compelled to give it to him or
stand a personal suit.
Senator Lane. Is that true under the law?
Senator Townsend. The law provides
Senator Lane. The law did not compel that Indian to give him a
receipt?
Representative Stephens. This was a special act.
Senator Lane. He has a right to demand a receipt under any law.
The Chairman. There can be no question about his right to take a
voucher in any reasonable form, desired.
Senator Townsend. He is only Uable as to whether he did pay this
money over to them or not. If it can be shown that he did not do it,
he is liable for it.
Senator Lane. Nobody was trying to make him liable. 1 was,
trying to get an intelligent synopsis of these expenditures, so that wOj
might report upon them.
I notice here in check stub No. 516, which is stated to be a debt
to the agent of Sac and Fox Agency. Who is 516 according to you^
boc^k?
;Mr. Thackery. 516 in favor of Pen-e-she, $2.50.
Senator Lane. What did he owe the agent of the Sac and Fox? _
Mr. Thackery. I could not tell you now. I do not recall. It is
marked there debt to an agent Sac and Fox.
Senator Lane. Can an Indian become indebted to an agent?
Mr. Thackery. This Pen-e-she lived at Sac and Fox for many
years. He was married to a Sac and Fox Indian, and I do not recall
now what the account was for. Possibly he was up there and the
agent gave him $2.50 to get home with.
Senator Lane. Did you get an order from the agent asking you
to pay this, or from the Indian to pay ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; that check was made payable to the
Inelian. • i u- j u+
Senator Lane. Then, you do not know whether he paid his deDt
there or not ?
bt;
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1719
Mr. Thackery. He probably indorsed the check and we sent the
check to the agent.
Senator Lane. You sent the check to the agent?
Mr. Thackery. I will look it up.
Senator Lane. Do you remember about 713 to Py-ah-tho?
Ml". Thackery. I remember about that one.
Senator Lane. Who is Wilson?
^£i'. Thackery. He was a special eye doctor in the city of Shawnee.
I think he is still there.
Senator Lane. Did you take a bill from him — a receipted bill?
Mr. Thackery. That check is his receipt. It has his signature
to it.
Senator Lane. There is no bill there showing the number of treat-
ments received, or anything of the kind.
Mr. Thackery. Oh, no. This woman was nearly blind and he
treated her eyes for quite a time.
Senator Lane. Did he cure her ?
Mr. Thackery. I do not know. I do not recall about that. I
think he did; certainly he helped her.
Senator Lane. I have not had time to look these over; I have not
had time to go through them. You want to get away to-night, do
you?
Mr. Thackery. To-night or to-morrow; and I wanted to go
to-night.
Senator Lane. There are quite a number of these checks, I noticed,
made in favor of a man named Graham,
Mr. Thackery. There are none made payable to Graham; no.
Senator Lane. He has indorsed them?
Mr. Thackery. Yes.
Senator Lane. Who is Graham?
Mr. Thackery. He was a merchant.
Senator Lane, What kind of business was he in ?
Mr. Thackery. General merchandise.
Senator Lane. Did he handle stock?
Mr. Thackery. Horses, do you mean, and cattle ?
Senator Lane. Yes.
Mr. Thackery. Yes; he handled some.
Senator Lane. Did he sell a good many horses to the Indians?
Mr. Thackery. Wei), not so very many.
Senator Lane. There was complaint made that he had or seemed
to have the bulk of the trade in that line with the Indians, and that
he sold them horses for fully all that they were worth, and -then later
on would buy those horses back from the Indians for much less and
sell them again to other Indians, the same horses passing through
hiS hands a number of times; that when the Indians got hard np they
would sell them back to liim. He sold them buggies and harness, too,
did he not ?
Mr. Thackery. He sold them some buggies and harness; yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Did you ever hear any complaint of that kind
against his transactions ?
Mr. Thackery. I do not recall of any with the Kickapoos. There
were some with the Shawnees. There were a few cases where he took
back the horses, but there were not very many such cases.
1720 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Senator Lane. Was he in any way connected with the Indian
Department, or any of the people working under him connected
with it ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir. He had been in the mercantile business
at Sac and Fox a number of years before that, where he may have had
connection with the Government, in that he was a licensed trader
there, but at Shawnee he was not a licensed trader at all.
Senator Lane. When you gave the Indian the money to purchase
the horse and buggy and harness, he would come and tell you what
he wanted, would he ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, >^ir.
Senator Lane. What did they usually cost them? What were
horses worth down there, buggy hors s ?
Mr. Thackery. A buggy hor&e ?
Senator Lane. Yes.
Mr, Thackery. It depends entirely on the horse, Senator. You
could buy a horse for $50, or you could pay .$200 for buggy horees.
We usually paid an average price of, I should say, $250; in some
cases we paid more than that.
Senator Lane. For a horse ?
Mr. Thackery. For a team.
Senator Lane. About $125 apiece ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes. In some cases we paid as high as $350 for a ,
farm team, but they were first-class horses.
Senator Lane. Did you know cases where the Indian would buy a,
horse and buggy and harness, and then it would go right back into
the hands of the dealer from whom he bought it, and then be sold to
other Indians ?
Mr. Thackery. Ver}^ few such cases.
Senator Lane. You know of some such cases ?
Mr. Thackery. None were taken back and sold over agam.
Senator Lane. Did you look over these horses yourself before they
were purchased ?
Mr. Thackery. Not all of them. Myself or some of the district .
farmers or other Government employees did so.
Senator Lane. You thought they had good value for the money ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, -ir." There were only a few of those trans-
actions by Mr. Graham, the man of whom you speak. The mer-
chants or the farmers over the country sold more to the Indians than
he did. They would buy direct from the farmers hi many caset
Senator Lane. I understood there were other traders there who
complained that Graham had the bulk of the business in that
respect.
Mr. Thackery. They never complained to me. The only person
who ever complained about that is Mr. Bentley, who is here.
Senator Lane. Mr. Bentley, do you know anything about that?j
Mr. Bentley. I do not recall having done so.
Senator Lane. Did you ever hear of any complaint being made ?
Mr. Bentley. The dealers in Shawnee complained to me.
Mr. Thackery. Which one ?
Mr. Bentley. Cover in particular complained to me that hia
stock did not seem to meet the Kickapoo requirements; that Grahan^
might have something to do with it. There was a good deal of
complaint to me.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1721
Senator Lane. Now, in the purchase of a horse, buggy, and harness
they ought to pay about $350, you say ?
Mr. Thackery. I suggested that an average price of a buggy
team would be possibly $250.
Senator Lane. In a case of that kind, would you take a receipted
bill from the merchant, or voucher showing it, or some statement
from him in writing that he had sold this to the Indian ?
Mr. Thackery. I think we usually took a bill of sale to guarantee
the Indian against mortgage on the team or anythhig of that kind.
Senator Lane. But you did not take any voucher for this ?
Mr. Thackery. The check itself is a receipt.
Senator Lane. You depend entirely on the check — you say you
depend entirely on these checks and what they show.
Mr. Thackery, Not entirely, but largely.
Senator Lane. And they show nothing."
Mr. Thackery. They show in nearly every case the indorsement;
that is the best receipt I know of.
Senator Lane. It wiU be very hard to identify that.
Senator Townsend. Mr. Thackery, did you give a bond to the
department for the expenditure of all Indian funds that come into
your hands ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. Does not that bond require you to account for
this money?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir. I prepared this bond that you speak of
covering expenditure of Indian funds, and asked to have it approved
so that I might so account for the money, and the comptroller ren-
dered a written decision that we could not do so.
Senator Townsend. I want to ask you, now, again: Does not your
bond, as a representative of the department out there, require you to
account for all moneys that come into your hands belonging to the
Indians ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. This was considered to be an exception
at that time. There may be special acts of Congress which would be
excepted from this bond. You say, does the bond require it ?
Senator Townsend. Yes.
Mr. Thackery. I am not sure about that. The regulations of the
office, I think, require that we account for those moneys. I do not
know just what the bond does require. Mr. Murphv, no doubt, could
tell you.
Senator Townsend. Do you beheve that the bond that you give
to the Government to account for all Indian moneys which come into
your hands could not be construed to cover all moneys that were
turned over to you for those Kickapoos ?
Mr. Thackery. In this particular account, it could not, according
to the written decision of the comptroller, which I understand
prevails.
Senator Townsend. It might not under the act, but under the
general provisions of your bond, do you think your advice is to the
effect that you could not be held accountable under that bond for
this Kickapoo money?
Mr. Thackery. I do not think I could. However, I am perfectly
willmg to be held.
1722 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Senator Townsend. The reason I ask the question is because that
is the most important thing with me in this investigation, whether
after we have discovered all that we want to discover, it can be made
a foundation for our report.
Senator Lane. I want to ask you a question, Mr. Thackery: In
spending money for the Indian, as regular agent- or supeiintcndent,
I believe they are now called — were you not in the habit and by the
rules and regulations of the department compelled to take vouchers
and make requisitions for all your expenditm-es and return them here,
and make full accounting to the department ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; we are required to make a full accounting,
but in paying an Indian money, the office, I think, considers his
indorsement on a check payable to his order as the best possible
voucher. . . .
Senator Lane. And does not require you to keep any requisitions
or vouchers or anything of that sort ? , • i,
Mr. Thackery. It would require quite a little time to explam that, ^
we handle so many different funds. If I was buying a team of horses
for the use of the agency, we would call for bids first, and we would
then prepare a voucher of the kind you refer to, and the successful
bidder would sign that and he would receive a check in payment;
and all those papers would be filed with our accounts. But if I were
paying an Indian individual lease money from his account, say, we
would issue him a check.
Senator Lane. You would have a lease to show, would you not—
a written lease of some sort, or would it be a verbal lease ?
Mr. Thackery. Always a written lease.
Senator Lane. There would always be a written lease as a voucher i
behind that check. In other words, for all the accounts of moneys '
you handle for the Government you have to give a close accounting,
much closer than you did in the expenditure of tbese funds ?
Mr. Thackery. I do not think so, no, not in all cases. The check
itself is susually the method. For instance, in paying my salary, I
do not sign any receipt excepting my indorsement on that check.
Senator Lane. And that salary is a matter of record in the office,i
do you not see on the pay roU ? • ■, ■ I
Mr. Thackery. Of course, the amount of money I receive here is^
of record for those Kickapoos, and papers are filed here which tell
me to receive it.
Senator Lane. Your salary is a certain amount payable on a cer-
tain day of the month, but these are irregular payments.
Mr. Thackery. I could have fully reheved myself. Senator, underi
this law by giving the Indian one check for the total amount. -\
Senator Lane. You might have done so; you could have donSj
that. You do not consider, then, that you were very tightly boun(|
in the expenditure of that money, according to that ?
Mr. Thackery. I do; I am perfectly \vi\Ymg to be bound as tigh
as you want. . j
Senator Lane. The explanations which you give us here impart^i
no information on which we can afford to spend time or detain you.[
I can not make much out of i t, and it is unfortunate for this commis-,
sion to be placed in the position of having to report that this i^
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1723
another one of the accounts whicli can not be investigated. I do
not know how it coukl give it an intelHgent investigation.
Mr. Thackery. If any one of those checks is questioned, you can
go to the Indian to whom it was paid.
Senator Lane. If there was a question here as to $50, I could go
down and hunt up the Indian ?
Mr. Thackery. Suppose I had a voucher, you might question that.
Senator Townsend. I can see the thing which Senator Lane has in
mind, but still I can not see any delinquency on the part of Mi*.
Thackery, the way he did business, provided the money was actually
paid to these Indians.
Senator Lane. We have no way of establishing whether it was or
not. You see here what the difference is. I do not know whether
you people ever handled much of that kind of work. If you have a
requisition first for an article, and then you have an O. K'd bill from
someone, you can go back and trace down the identical article.
Senator Townsend. Surely you can.
Senator Lane. Which is corroborative, and it works out syste-
matically, and it is the method by which they should handle accounts.
Unless Mr. Thackery did that he did not properl}^ protect himself.
There are many cases which we do not understand, and he would be
able to make an explanation of where he bought, say, two horses and a
buggy, totaling $300. That is r[uite a respectable sum of money, and
he should have had a receipted biU for that amount properly made
out and O K'd and turned it in with his accounts; the bank should
have had these signatures properly indorsed, and ihej did not do that.
Mr. Thackery. They did it in a very large majority of cases.
Senator Lane. In those cases in which they did not, it \vi[\ b(»
called in question, and for his o\\^l protection it is necessary tha^ it
should have been done. I am not saying that his accounts are in-
correct, but I would not certify to any of them.
Mr. Thacpiery. I am not dodging responsibihty for those checks
that are not indorsed.
The Chairman. Are there any further questions, Senator Lane ?
Mr. Bentley. Mr. Chairman, before the committee adjourns, at
the conclusion of the last hearing, Mr. Thackery
The Chairman. We want to take Mr. Bun tin's testimony now.
Mr. Bentley. I thought you were about to adjourn.
The Chairman. No; Mr. Buntin wants to go away, and I thou«-ht
we might try to serve his convenience.
Mr. Thackery. May I make a statement of about 10 words? In
answer to a question that you put soon after I took the stand the
other night, 1 stated that there were 82 of these accounts; that is,
that the total amount I received was divided into 82 parts. I should
have said 85 parts. I just wanted to correct that m the record. There
were 154 h\'ing allottees, of which I had 85, and Mr. Bentley had 72.
The Chairman. Have you a list ol those you had ?
Mr. Thackery. I have it in this book.
The Chairman. Will you furnish it to us ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
(Not furnished.)
1724 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN A. BTJNTIN.
(The witi ess was duly sworn by the chairman.)
The Chairman. What official position do you hold ?
Mr. BuNTiN. Superintendent of the Shawnee Agency.
The Chairman. How long have yoii served in that capacity?
Mr. BuNTiN. Since June 15, 1911.
The Chairman. Are you fr-miliar with the affairs of the Kickapoos
at preserit ar.d their condition?
Mr. BuNTiN. Yes, sir; that is, the Oklahoma Kickapoos.
I'he Chairman. Do you know about how many of them there are?
Mr. BuNTiN. There are in Oklahoma, counting men, women, and
children, about 170, who have been living there.
The Chairman. Do they live in the Immediate neighborhood of
Sin. wnee ?
Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir. The center of population, I believe, is
about 21 miles northwest of Sha\\a:ee.
The Chairman. What is the principal occupation of these Indians,
if any.
aIt. Buntin. Farming.
The Chairman. How miitiy of them, would you say, are successful
farmers ?
Mr. Buntin. Successful?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Buntin. As successful farmers there are only a few, probably
half a dozen, who are supporting themselves by farming wholly through
their eft'orts as farmers.
The Chairman. What is the total Fiumber actually engaged in
trying to farm?
Mr. Buntin, I believe there are about 44 men, among those that
livo in Oklahoma, and I beliov'^ that at l^ast 35 of them have in a
crop this year.
The Chairman. What do they grow ?
!Mr. Buntin. They raise corn, cotton, alfalfa, kafir corn, milo
maize, and then they raise a great many beans.
The Chairman. How are they supported ?
Mr. Buntin. They are supported from what they raise on their
farms, and the lease money.
The Chairman. Do all of them own allotments ?
Mr. Buntin. Not all; nearly all of the adult Indians have allot-
ments.
The Chairman. What numb(u- of them have not allotments of
adult Indians ?
Mr. Buntin. There must be of living allottees about 80 at this
time in Oklahoma. There are probably 204 Kickapoo allotments.
A number of those are heirship allotments.
The C'HAIRMAn. How are those supported who do not farm and
do not get lease money?
Mr. Buntin. They are supportt d by th(^ other Indians.
The: Chairman. Do you pay out their lease money?
Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How do you handle that fund ?
Mr. Buntin. We usually have the payments made semiannually,
and immediately after collecting them disbuise it to the Indian.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1725
The Chairman, How do you disburse it?
Mr. BuNTiN. By chock.
The Chairman. To the Indian himself ?
Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is he permitted to spend it in any way tiiat lie
wants to ?
Mr. Buntin. The lease money is usually disbursed to tliose w}io are
competent v^dthout supervision; that gives him a right to spend it as
he pleases.
Tlie Chairm.\x. Those that are not competent ?
Ml'. Buntin. Those that are not competent we endeavor to super-
vise their purchases.
The Chairman. How many of them liave you among tjiese Kick-
apoos ?
Mr. Buntin. There are probably one-third of them tluxt we class
as incompetent to handle their mone}" received from rentals in lump
sura without supervision.
The Chairman. Wliat is the condition of tJiese Indians witli refer-
ence to education ?
Mr. Buntin. Their education is very hmited.
The Chairman. How many of them, would you say, can read and
wTite ?
Mr. Buntin. Out of the 170, I would estimate that 40 probably can
read and wTiti^
The Chairman. What school facilities are provided for the children
of these Indians ?
Mr. Buntin. We have the Shawnee School.
The Chairman. Is that an Indian school?
Mr. I^UNTiN. That is the Shawnee Indian Boarding and Training
School. Then they have access to the nonreservaticui schools.
The Chairman. Do you know how many of the Kickapoo cliildron
are in school ?
Mr. Buntin. I do not know the exact number, but I will estimate
that there are in the Shawnee schools between 20 and 25.
The Chairman. Wliat is the total number of school population of
the Kickapoos in Oklahoma?
Mr. Buntin. I believe there must be between 30 and 35 children
there; that is, eligible to school.
The Chairman. Something over half of them are then actually
attending school.
Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What progress do they make, in general ?
Mr. Buntin. They are getting along very well.
The Chairman. Did you receive anv part of this trust fund from
Mr. Thackery?
Mr. Buntin. The only part that I have knowledge of receiving
was some he turned over to Annie Hale, and Annie made a voluntary
deposit.
The Chairman. What do you mean by "voluntary deposit"?
Mr. Buntin. In this way, an Indian can make a voluntary deposit
at any time he wants to at the agency. I received Mr. Thackery's
money in a lump sum, approximately S65,000.
The Chairman. That was when his account as superintendent
was closed ?
1726 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Ml-. BuNTiN. Yes, sir; had any of this money been turned in to
him to be paid out, but as a turn-back, as a deposit, it might have
been taken up as individual Indian money and I might have received
it in that way.
The Chairman. And you would not be able to segregate the trust
funds that came into your hands in that way; it would not be in trust,
except in your hands as superintendent ?
Mi\ BuNTiN. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You never undertook to handle any fund, then, as
trustee ?
Ml". BuNTiN. Not as trustee.
The Chairman. In the sense that Thackery handled it?
Mr. BuNTiN. None as trustee. This check I received from Annie
Hale was sent to her through me by Thackery to settle her account in
full. She was a pupil m an Indian school, and I advised her she did
not need that nmch money at that time.
The Chairman. How much was it?
Ml'. BuNTiN. Between $500 and S600. She voluntarily turned the
check over to me and made a deposit and has since used the larger
part of it in equipping herself with household goods.
The Chairman. Do you know how much she has on hand ?
Ml'. BuNTiN. My recollection is she has between $100 and $140.
The Chairman. Wliat do you say with reference to whether these
Indians are progressing or going backward ?
Mr. BuNTiN. They are progressing at this time.
The Chairman. What are the evidences of their progress?
Mr. Buntin. They are increasing their farm operations very
noticeably, and getting on a much nearer self-supporting basis than
before. Many of the Kickapoos who have heretofore refusedjto allow
tlieir children to go to school, who have strictly opposed school, have
brought their children down since I have been there and put them
in, and a number of them have insisted on not letting them go home
too much, and they have taken up farming, and many of them have
planted crops. Under the authority of the Indian Ofhce I have been
selhng them hogs on payments. They take them, handle them very
well, and make prompt paymcMit. The same way with alfalfa seed,
and there is an unu-ual display of interest in their farm operations.
The Chairman. You said, during the examination of Mr. Thackery,
if I und(-i-stood you, that you thought practically all of these Inelians
knew how much of tliis trust fund was due to them in the beginning.
Upon what do you base that statement? How do you know they
did?
Mr. Buntin. A number of them came in, and in talking over their
business I asked them how much of that money they got. This has
been a question very mucli discussed, for the rea^-on that th«)se in
Mexico denied receiving their part, and a number of tliem have told
me the amounts that they were to receive, and that they had received.
Tlie ( 'hairman. Do you account to tlie department for these funds
which you receive anel depo>^it for iTidivichnJ Indians?
Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Tliackery, I believe you have already stated
that you did not make any accounting to the department in regard
to this trust fund.
Mr. Thackery. No, sir; 1 did nol.
KIOKAPOO INDIANS. 1727
The Chairman. That the comptroller held that you could not do so.
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. I would like to ask if Mr. Thackery has struck off
a balance here and submitted it to us.
Mr. Thackery. The committee, I believe, that examined the
account did, Senator.
Senator Lane. Wliat committee ?
Mr. Thackery, The clerks of this commission.
The Chairman. The clerks of the commission and the accountant
from the bureau. I did not understand that they undertook to bal-
ance your account.
Mr. Keating (secretary to the commission). No, sir; we did not.
Mr. Thackery. Mr. Murphy had the account.
The Chairman. What was this $11,802.73?
Mr. Murphy. That is the corrected amount, as shown by the
ledger, that was transferred to the guardianship account.
Mr. Thackery. In cash ?
Mr. Murphy. Yes; that is not supported by checks payable to the
Indians.
The Chairman. The}^ were accounted for through the court, these
funds ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What is the total amount of funds you have on
hand now for the benefit of the Kickapoos as superintendent ?
Mr. BuNTiN. I could not answer that question.
The Chairman. Do you know about how much ?
Mr. BuNTiN. For the benefit of the Kickapoos, without supervi-
sion— I have individual Indian money, about $55,000, in my account,
and a large majority of that belongs to the Kickapoos.
The Chairman. Where do you keep it ?
Mr. Buntin. That money is held in the Shawnee National Bank,
the First National Bank of Tecumseh, and the Treasury of the L^nited
States.
The Chairman. Do they pay interest on it?
Mr. BuNTiN. Yes, sir; the two banks — they do.
The Chairman. How much?
Mr. Buntin. Four per cent on daily balances.
The Chairman. Who gets the benefit of that interest ?
Mr. Buntin. The Indians.
The Chairman. Did the banks, Mr. Thackery, pay interest on this
trust fund ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; I explained that in the record. They
paid me about $600 interest before it was transferred into the guar-
dian account.
The Chairman. And that represents your compensation in the
matter ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; and expense.
The Chairman. What about the balance of $11,000 and something
that was disbursed through the guardianship account ?
Mr. Thackery. The interest on that went to the Indians.
The Chairman. Went to the Indians ?
Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And that was all accounted for in your settlements
with the courts ?
1728 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Ml-. Thackery. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Mi-. Buntin, what is the condition of
health of these Indians?
Mr. Buntin. They are in vei-y good health, better than the average
Indian.
Representative Stephens. About how many have trachoma or
eye trouble ?
Mr. Buntin. I will estimate
Representative Stephens. Wliat per cent ?
Mr. Buntin. I will estimate that not less than 25 per cent on the
Shawnee Agency, including Kickapoos, have trachoma.
Senator Lane. Are they young people and children ?
Mr. Buntin. They average that.
Representative Stephens. Is it increasing or decreasing?
Mr. Buntin. I do not believe it is on the increase any — about a
standstill .
Representative Stephens. Do they keep it out of the school ?
Mr. Buntin. We keep it pretty well out of the school. If we get a
case we treat the case.
Representative Stephens. Have you boarding schools?
Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Do you keep those infected with tra-
choma separated from the other students ?
Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir; as soon as one conies in with trachoma,
it is injiiie iiately treated for the trachoma, and it is segregated from
the others until it gets in condition where it would be safe, and then
they have to wash under a stream of water antl have individual
towels.
Representative Stephens. About how many students have you iu
this boarding school ?
Mr. Buntin. The capacity of the school is 110, and it is usually
just about full.
Representative Stephens. How is it that you only have 25 pupils
in the school ?
Ml'. Buntin. I said 25 per cent is my estimate. I will explain
that. This is the Kickapoos. And now, we have the Shawnees
and then we have the Pottawatomies. They come from these other
tribes.
Senator Lane. About how many Pottawatomies ?
Mr. Buntin. The Shawnees were originally, I think, about 600.
They were allotted 556, and Pottawatomies probably 900.
Senator Lane. All under your charge ?
Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. About how many Kickapoos are under
your charge in the boarding school?
Mr. Buntin. Between 20 and 25.
Representative Stephens. Then have you day schools ?
Mr. Buntin. There are just public schools, but no Indian day
schools. We have mission schools which take a number of Potta-
watomies.
Representative Stephens. Is the Government paying for that?
Mr. Buntin. No, sir.
Representative Stephens. About how many have you in the day
schools of the Pottawatomies and others under your charge?
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1729
Mr. BuNTiN. The large majority of the Pottawatomies are in
pubuc schools.
Representative Stephens. The pubhc schools of the State «
Mr. BuNTiN Yes sir; they are considerably mixed with the white
blood. Ihe white blood really predominates.
Representative Stephens. Tell us whether there are any Kickapoo
Indians m the day schools of the State with the white children
Mr. BuNTiN. There have been a few.
Representative Stephens. About how many «
Mr. BuNTiN. Two is all I know of.
Representative Stephens. Is it not very satisfactory when vou
can get them to go to these schools ?
Mr Buntin. It is very satisfactory, and we encourge it all we can
to get them into the day schools.
Representative Stephens. It is a better system than to sesre^ate
them and put them into the Indian schools?
Mr. Buntin. Oh, yes; where we can get them in and make them
regular attendants. The trouble is they will start in and then so a
few days and then quit, but two of these Kickapoos have been o-oin^
very regularly the past year. ^ ^
StftT^"^^^^"^^^^^^"^ Stephens. Are any Kickapoo Indians voters in the
Mr Buntin. None of them vote, that I know of, or take part in
the election. ^
_ Representative Stephens. Arc they not competent to vote?
Would they not bo permitted to vota if they desired aft^r the land
has been allotted them ?
Mr. Buntin I do not believe they could stop them from votine if
they go up and demand a vote.
Representative Stephens. But they have never been taueht to
vote ? ^
Mr. Buntin. Very few of the Shawnees vote.
Senator Lane. I want to ask you what percentage of tuberculosis
you have among those Indians ?
Mr. Buntin. 'The percentage of tuberculosis is smaUer among the
tribe ol Indians on this reservation than any I have been on
Senator JjANe. About what is it ?
Mr. Buntin. It would only be an estimate, but of the number of
deaths that occur among the Indians we see that less than 50 per cent
is caused by tuberculosis— less than half of them.
Senator Lane. Is it incr(>asing or decreasing ?
Mr. Buntin. I think it is decreasing.
Senator Lane. Are you doing anything to stamp it out «
Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir; we are doing all we can.
Senator Lane. What are you doing ?
Mr. Buntin. Well, when an Indian is affected with tuberculosis we
either get the farmer to go to them or take it up with them them-
selves as to how toprevent it spreading.
Senator Lane. What does he do ?
Mr. Buntin. He will usuaUy go and instruct them to have no one
!3leep with them, to expectorate in water, and take it off and bury it
and use every sanitary precaution. '
Senator Lane. They still live in the same house and conthaue to
occupy the same house?
1730 KICKA.POO INDIANS.
Mr. BuNTiN. They oftentimes do that.
Senator Lane. It is hard to prevent it ?
Mr. BuNTiN. Very difficult.
The Chairman. I want to ask about the number of these Indians.
You say there are about 400 Shawnees, 900 Pottawatomies, and 170
Kickapoos, according to your estimate ?
^li\ BuNTiN. Those are supposed to be present. If we go and
gather up the Pottawatomies that are scattered throughout the coun-
try— originally there were 1,371 allotted there. Many of them live
in Kansas and never have lived there in Oklahoma — there would be a
great many more; probably, if not nearly, 2,400 listed. If you were
looking at the annual report, you would find those Kickapoos down in
New Mexico are added on with the Indians in Oklahoma, with the
Kickapoos there.
The Chairman. I find in the statement furnished the House com-
mittee, in its hearings in 1912, absentee Shawnees number 445.
Wliat does that mean ?
Ikli-. Buntin. They distinguished those from the Kansas Shawnees.
The Chairman. That is, the Shawnees that are actually there,
is it?
Mr. Buntin. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You say you think there are about 400?
Mr. Buntin. Tom Alfred, the head man, rates them at 600. No
recent enumeration has been made.
Tlic Chairman. How is it you rate them 200 lower than the head
man?
Mr. Buntin. My estimate is about 600, taken from Alfred's re-
port, but that includes Shawnees not Uving there. Of the Shawnees
that are living there, probably an estimate of 400 to 500 would be
about right.
The Chairman. Is there no accurate or nearly accurate census of
them ?
Mr. Buntin. No; we have not any accurate census, because they
are mixed with the Indians and are constantly moving back and
forth.
The Chairman. In that same hearing it appeared there were
citizen Pottawatomies, 1,655. Was that based upon information
which tliat agency furnished the office ?
Mr. Buntin. Probably it was, but that would include the Potta-
watomies scattered throughout the country.
The Chairman. How many are scattered and how many are in
Oklahoma?
Mr. Buntin. I estimate about 900 Pottawatomies are living in
that part of the country at this time.
The Chairman. Where are tlie remaining 755 ?
Mr. Buntin. The larger portion are in Kansas, and then they are
scattered throughout the United States.
The Chairman. That is just an estimate, then?
Mr. Buntin. Just an estimate.
The Chairman. Upon what is that estimate based?
Mr. Buntin. That is based upon the best information that we can
get from the head men of the tribe.
The Chairman. I see in that hearing there are listed Mexican
Kickapoos at 243.
I
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1731
Mr. BuNTiN. I think that there are more than that. I have had
the Kickapoos counted, and their count at the time I had it made was
170, and I estimate those in Mexico at about 130 at last count.
The Chairman. How do you go about estimating an Indian popu-
lation? I am curious to know liow you get these figures. What is
done when you go to make up these estimates ? What steps are taken
to get at the number.
Mr. BuNTiN. Those in Mexico, the estimate was made from the
number of allottees living and the number of families, by going over
it with the members of the Kickapoo Tribe that Imew.
The Chairman. At home, how do you get the 170?
Mr. BuNTiN. Well, that was the 'count. I had the field agent
count them.
The Chairman. You have a list of them, have you ?
Mr. BuNTiN. They have a list of those.
The Chairman. Will you furnish that to us ?
Mr. Buntin. Yes, I can send that to you.
The Chairman. Have you a list of the Pottawatomies in your
jiu-isdiction ?
Mr. Buntin. No, sir; I have not.
The Chairman. Have you a list of the Shawnees?
Mr. Buntin. A very nearly correct list of the Shawnees can be
furnished.
The Chairman. I wish you would furnish that too. How does it
happen that no list of the Pottawatomies has been made?
Mr. Buntin. The Pottawatomies are more white than Indian, and
many of them you would never suspect of being an Indian to look
at them, and they have moved around just like civihzed people, many
of them, from place to place, and had their families scattered out.
Many of them left there and never lived there.
(List above not furnished.)
The Chairman. Mr. Bentley, gentlemen, wants to make a state-
ment in reply to something Mr. Thackery said on a former occasion.
TESTIMONY OF MR. MARTIN J. BENTIEY— Resumed.
Mr. Bentley. My statement, now, gentlemen, is in reply to the
concluding statement of Mr. Thackery the other night, in which he
gave you the reasons why he was distrustful of me.
At page 48 of the typewritten record, foHo 2949, Mr. Thackery
began giving to you his reasons why he was distrustful of me, and
he again for the fifth to the tenth time brought forward the matter
of my having given an Indian woman a receipt for $2,000, payable
at my convenience.
Wliile I regret to say this, I am compelled to make the statement
now that Mr. Thackery has willfully falsified to you in this matter.
Probably no man has had reason to or has had more occasion to read
the record "Affairs of the Kickapoos" than has Mr. Thackery. At
page 587, volume 1 of that record, is the testimony of William A.
Bonnet, president of the Border National Bank, and in regard to the
funds of Emma Garland having been paid to her, Mr. Bonnet testified
as follows:
Mr. Benti.ey. Since the subject of Emma Garland is in the record, I would like to
ask Mr. Bonnet if 1 ever paid her any money there in his liank?
1732 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Mr. Bonnet. Ye.«, sir; she drew some money from you.
Mr. Bentley. Do you recall any particular amount that you had occasion to look
up in your books?
Mr. Bonnet. She drew at one time, to the best of my recollection, $2,000. I do
not know whether that was yours or not. I know she drew a thousand. You gave
her a check on one occasion because I remember the $2,000 paid her. She came in
perhaps two or three months after that, the time she was homesick and tried to talk me
into letting her have the money to get back to Oklahoma with.
All of the testimony is in the record of the president of the bank.
Mr. Thackery. Wliat page is that?
Mr. Bentley. Page 587. That I paid the woman through his
bank $2,000, and I went into court and settled it all, but notwith-
standing
The Chairman (interposing). You went into court and settled it.
What do you mean by that?
Mr. Bentley. Settled it with, the agreed amount, mth the ad-
ministrator.
The Chairman. How much ?
Mr. Bentley. Seven hundred dollars and some odd.
Continuing further, the schedule of individual Indian moneys,
showing the sums received by me from individuals and returned by
me to them, page 2295, third volume "Affairs of the Kickapoos,"
shows that I originally had of this woman's money $4,000; that I had
returned to her or her heirs $3,600. That statement is true, notwith-
standing that Mr. Thackery, in the knowledge of this record, had his
farmer, one Ratzhff, appointed administrator for the heirs of Emma
Garland, whose Indian name was Ah-them-esk-kah-mo, and whose
name so appears in the record referred to, and this administrator
sued me for $6,000, or about that, for a large sum more than I ever
had of the woman's money. At the time of the bringing of this smt
my account showed that I did not owe this woman, or her heirs, in
excess of $400.
However, I had not paid her any interest, and when the time came
for trial I said to Mr. Thackery, who was responsible for this condi-
tion, "If you put me to the trouble of going to Eagle Pass to take
depositions and of procuring other witnesses, I shall fight this to a
finish. But rather than be in htigation, I mil pay all I owe, with
reasonable interest," wliich I did. I drew a check for $700 and some
odd, payable to the administrator, as an acceptance by him for all
demands on the part of Emma Garland, or her heirs. And notwith-
standing that I deUvered tliis check into the hands of Mr. Thackery
for deUvery to the administrator, and that he returned it to me,
suggesting "some revision or correction, which was made by me and
then the check returned to him, and further, that there was a con-
siderable contention as to w^ho should pay the costs in tliis unwar-
ranted suit, that, if I recall, was adjusted by each paying one-half
the costs, he went deUberately before a committee of Congress, mak-
ing the oft-repeated allegation and citation about this scandalous
receipt, and stated that the suit was still pending and that I had re-
fused to settle with her heirs.
The exact language will be found beginning at page 10 of the trans-
script of the testimony given by Mr. Thackery, August 14, 1912, before
the Committee on Indian Affairs of the House c^f Representatives — and
i
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1733
I think, Mr. Chairman, you haA^e it now there before you — wliich in
part, is as follows:
The Chairman. How do you know?
Mr. Thackery. Mr. Graham told me and the girl showed me a receipt which read
approximately as follows:
"Due Emma Garland the sum of — naming the money; I don't remember that
amount, but I think it was $2,000 — -to be paid her at the convenience of the pa-yer,
written in his o^^^l handwriting and signed Martin J. or M. J. Bentley."
We sent that to the Indian Office and it was forwarded and used in a case in court
and it is now a part of the record in that case. He got, in all, $6,000. He gave a
receipt for a less amount.
The Chairman. What was the amount named in the receipt?
Mr. Thackery. That is what I say, I don't recall, but I think it was $2,000. It
wasn't less than S2,000 I am positive, from the reading of it. I can later get the
original receipt, which is in his handwriting, as stated.
The Chairman. Is this Indian still in Oklahoma or Mexico?
^Ir. Thackery. This girl is dead. She later died and had never recovered her
funds. An administrator was appointed and he has been attempting for her heirs to
get a settlement, and he has had a suit pending against Mr. Bentley for an accounting
in that case.
The Chairman . Is that still pending?
Mr. Thackery. So far as I know, it is.
He knew it was not; he knew it was settled. The above testimony
is not only a deliberate perjury, but the mahcious, vicious kind that
I do not Ivelieve fair-minded men can overlook. I defied Mr. Thack-
ery then, and I defy him now, to attest the statement that he then
made. I have endeavored to take up one positive, concrete instance
that is insusceptible of any possible construction other than that he
who made it did it falsely and for a malicious purpose.
Throughout the entire record this man Thackery has endeavored
to distort and has had no regard for the truth. In testifying before
the House Committee on Indian Affairs
The Chairman. I do not think that is proper language to be put
into this record.
^Ir, Bentley. I will be pleased to modify it.
The Chairman. You must modify it.
Mr. Bentley. I am citing you the record.
The Chairman. Cite the record and it is for the commission to
determine the credibility of the evidence. You are under oath and
that kind of language, you know, is not parliamentary.
Mi\ Bentley. I am stating it in an orderly
The Chairman. Go ahead with your statement and make your
answer as a statement of fact.
Mr. Bentley. I wnll modify the answer to agree w4th your sugges-
tion, but I wish to continue my statement a little further.
The Chairman. If it is untrue, you are entitled and privileged to
say it is not true.
Mr. Bentley. Mr. Thackery testified and it is in that record — no,
in testifying before the House Committee on Indian Affairs, August
14, 1912, when it was claimed that the Kickapoos should be reim-
bursed for the expense they w^ere to in moving from southeast to
northwfst Mexico, Mr. Thackery testified twice in that record that
the move was a trivial matter; it w%ns only a distance of 200 or 300
milrs. But when he came before the Senate committee with his
coached Indian witnesses for the purpose of showing the committee
what staunch, determined men they were, he testified that when they
n.inOl— PT 13—14 12
1734 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
became iiisurrectos and left tlie Soiiora colony to return to Muzquiz, i
which was the startmg point and destination in the fust instance, he
stated that it was a most tortuous trip, covering a distance of more
than a thousand miles. Simply going back over the old road the
others had come — only 200 or 300 milts.
I might take the great record, comprising thousands of pages, occa-i
sioned by this man Thackery's prejudice and insincerity, and repeat
similar instances, but I shall feel that the two cited, showing deliber-:
ate, willful — you say to leave that language out
The Chairman. I do not think that adds any matter of knowledge
to the commission.
Ml-, Bentley. The other matters I know you will not object to.
He tells you that he was distrustful of me and my purpose in 1906,
because I had been under numerous indictments and of my association
with Grimes. He does not tell you, however, that the indictments,
the only indictment ever brought against me in the State of Oklahoma
durmg my residence there covering 30 years, was brought through his.
connivance and at his instance prior to 1906.
He does not tell you that Grimes and I long prior to the time thatj
he became agent, and at all times thereafter, were the most bitter
enemies.
He does not tell you that from the time that he became agent until
the investigation by Congress disclosed the Kickapoo forgeries, that
Grimes was the agency favorite, his bosom friend. That it was
notorious in the neighborhood of the agency and at Harrah, Okla.,
that Grimes had a stand-in with Snpt. Thackery because he was help-
ing Thackery to persecute me. And in support of this statement I
shall ask to quote briefly from the report of Inspector Jenkins to the
Secretary of the Interior under date of October 12. 1905, as shown
on pages 2112, 2113-14, and 2115, third volume, "Affairs of the Kick-
apoos." The inspector said in part:
* * * lu the first place I find practically all the charges against Grimes to be
true. He is a bully and "bluffer," and ha i monopolized the leasing of these lands
since the country opened. He is not a farmer, but a speculator; he employs men to
farm the lands for him. His leases are not well improved. Fences are poor, clearing
not thoroughly done, and there is evidence of much waste in timber cutting. I saw
many places where he had cut large trees from allotments (not necessarily for clear-
ing), and find that he is hauling and shipping wood by the carload from other allot-
ments. This has been going on for years. Several sawmills have been in operation
in the vicinity for six years or more" past. * * * That he is a hard drinker, and
frequently becomes intoxicated, and when in that condition is quarrelsome and
dangerous. * * * Supt. Thackery admits that Grimes is not a proper man to
give a lease; that he does not farm the lands, but hires men to do the work; that he
drinks excessively and is quarrelsome; that he does not farm the land well or make the
improvements called for in the leases; also that he has more land than should be
allowed any one man. His excuse is that when he (Thackery) came here he thought,
Grimes had been unfairly dealt with by Bentley, former agent, and that he has been
endeavoring to repay Grimes for the bad treatment accorded him at the hands of
Bentley.
Through an order of court, as guardian of an Indian boy, I had
executed a lease to one L. J. Pipher. Unfortunately for Pipher, he
was an enemy of Grimes and a friend of mine. And, notwithstand-
ing that Pipher was an excellent farmer, having moved from the farm-
ing regions of IlUnois, Thackery was determined to deprive Pipher ol
these lands in the interest of his friend Grimes, and Pipher was per-
secuted in the interest of Grimes by Tliackery at Government ex-
pense to such an extent that he was linancially ruined, notwithstand-
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1735
ing the character of Grimes being the worst and that of Pipher the
best. In relation to this matter, the inspector, in his report, stated
as follows :
Wliile Mr. Tliackery and Pipher disagree as to the conversation between them
concerning the necessary steps to be taken for the api)roval of this lease, it would seem
to have been the duty of Mr. Thiickery to be very explicit; also that he should have
written Mr. Piplier fully in order that there could l)e no opportunity for a misunder-
standing. It also savors of spite work ou the part of Mr. Thackery against Mr.
Bentley (iri which Mr. Pipher is an innocent sufferer) in rushing the appointment
of a natural guardian through and getting the lease approved for Grimes on the land
in controA'crsy. It is the apparent hatred of Bentley and favoritism shown Grimes
on Mr. Thackery's part that lias caused so much unfavorable comment in the com-
munity, and apparently not without some groujid. * * *
I want to show you it was notorious that Grimes had stood in with
the agent, Thackery; it was scandal throughout the community.
Representative Stephens. Wliat year was that ?
Mr. Bentley. 1902, 1903, and 1904, and along there. This in-
spector's report is dated October 12, 1905.
Representative Stephens. Wliat year did you go out of the service ?
Mr. Bentley. 1901.
Representative Stephens. Wlio were you succeeded by ?
Mr. Bentley. By Thackery.
Mr. Thackery didn't tell you when he referred to the affidavit of
Grimes and Joe Adams, the attorney of Grimes, that Grimes attrib-
uted the 30 or 40 indictments for forgery against him in Texas pend-
ing at the time he made the affidavit, to my efforts. That Joe
Adams was the attorney for the Chapman-Grimes-Conine combi-
nation.
Neither did he tell you that it was immediately following my ob-
servation of himself and Grimes, holding a conference after 10 o'clock
at night, in an alley in Shawnee, that I became suspicious that he
was procuring the services of Grimes to aid him (Thackery) in secur-
ing the vote of the criminal element of the Kickapoos. Up to that
time Grimes had controlled absolutely by whisky, lewd women, and
otherwise, about 12 of the Kickapoos, and I believed then and have
since been told by Grimes that Thackery was seeking influence with
them because their number would determine the result. That Thack-
ery was conferring with Grimes in an alley; that the conference sud-
denly terminated when they found they were observed, one going
one way and one another, I can prove by the most substantial
testimony.
To pursue the argument any further in the light of the facts already
stated I feel would be an imposition on the intelligence of this com-
mittee, and an unwarranted consumption of its time. This is prac-
tically the third tribunal or inquisitorial body that has gone ex-
haustively into the matter now under investigation. Many thou-
sands of pages of testimony have been taken. The affairs of the
Kickapoo Indians and my conduct of their affairs was under investi-
gation by the full committee of the vSenate, covering days of time, in
1905. In 1906, and in 1907, 2,300 pages of testimony was taken,
out of which grew the record now known as "Affairs of Kickapoos,"
which is in three volumes. Then came the investigation before the
House Committee, consisting of Mr. Ferris, Mr. Stephens, Mr. Carter,
and Mr. Burke. I feel that I am entitled to say that by that com-
mittee I was given a full acquittance, because my contention was
1736 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
sustained. In 1912, hearings Nos. 4, 5, and 6 of the Senate Com- I
mittee on Indian Affairs will show arguments made by me, and No ,
6 was the answer or showing by the Indian Bureau in rebuttal and i
responsive to the demand of the committee for information relating ;
to my allegations, which occasioned another investigation as to my
conduct of the affairs of the Kickapoos. '
My statement before the full committee of the Senate was in
behalf of all the Indian people of the country, in an endeavor to bring !
to the notice of Congress the fact that, of the great gratuities to
the Indian people, 90 per cent was expended in salaries in getting
less than the other 10 per cent to the Indians; that the great Inchan
estates of this country were being exploited through the prejudice
and lack of capacity or sincerity of the Indian Bureau; that in
one instance more than 80 per cent of the entire area of an original
allotted area of 301,000 acres had been absorbed by speculators,
through the connivance of agency ofTicials, and that in value less
than fo per cent remained, because the 20 per cent of the area remain-
ing was sand hills, overflow, or land so eroded that it had no value.
This line of argument had a disquieting effect on the Indian
Bureau, and the then Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Mr. Valen-
tine, convened his board of review, directing them to make a
finding of fact " as to the character and capacity of Martin J. Bentley."
After many weeks of deliberation and apparently exhaustive
labor, the board of review reported to the honorable commissioner
that they were utterly unable to make a finding of fact; that the
record was of such volume and in such conflict that they could not
decide. Their remarks, however, citations for and against, covered
36 typewritten pages. Thus it will be observed that, so far as the
Indian Bureau tribunal is concerned, my character and capacity is
beyond their capacity of determination.
But this tribunal that I am now addressing surely owes it to me
to say whether I have been honest or dishonest. In fact, I fee)
entitled to demand at your hands, not only a finding as to my
character, capacity, and purpose toward the Indian people, but
to determine the sum to which I am entitled over and above the
$86,000 received by me from the Treasury of the United States,
Otherwise I should feel that an injustice had been done me, and
I ask this, to the end that peace may be had and further investigator
may end. I thank you.
The Chairman. When did you receive the $4,000 from Emms
Garland ?
Mr. Bentley. By looking at the records I could tell you exactly
Senator.
The Chairman. About when ?
Mr. Bentley. I think it was in 1903 or 1904.
The Chairman. What did you do with it?
Mr. Bentley. I gave her, in the first instance, a note covering
the whole amount. She brought the money in cash, in gold— $2(
gold pieces — to my home, and we counted it over, and all in excess o.
$4,000 she took away with her.
The Chairman. Did she do that voluntarily or had you sohcitec
her to deposit that with you or leave it with you ?
i
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1737
Mr. Bextley. I would have to leave that to the commission.
I was over to the agency, and my team had gone on, and Emma
Garland solicited me to go to the traders to settle her account,
figure it up and settle it, and I went there, and I was invited by her
husband to ride with them to Shawnee, and when we got there they
voluntarily hitched the team, and they got out and carried the
money in there, and I gave her my note for the full amount.
The Chairman. When was that note payable ?
Ml*. Bentley. Those notes were almost always made payable in
one year.
The Chairman. Have you that note?
Mi-. Bentley. I do not know what became of it, Senator, when I
paid it. She was a terrible spendthrift, and kept coming to me for
money — and each time I would indorse it on the note.
The Chairman. Did you have the note, or did she keep it ?
Ml'. Bentley. She had the note and kept it in her pocketbook, and
I insisted that she bring the note in when I made payments, so that I
coidd indorse it on the note. The last time she brought that note in,
there was a balance of $300 in excess of $2,000 on that, and I gave her
a new note for $2,000.
The Chairman. What did you give her a new note for $2,000 if
only a balance of $300 remained ?
Mr. Bentley. I mean, giving her the $300, leaving $2,000 due, is
what I mean to say. Here were all of these indorsements, paid from
time to tim.e when she came, and so I took up the old note and gave
her a new one. The report she made to me, when I m.et her one time
later in Mexico, was that she had lost that note, and also that the $300
had been stolen from her.
The Chairman. You mean the money?
Mr. Bentley. The money and the note; but the first time I ever
saw her after that, and she called my notice to.it, I gave her the famous
recei])t in lead pencil which has been referred to so often in the record,
"Pay at my convenience." I did not know but what somebody
would show up with the note. And finally I paid her some small
sums, and she died. When she died, I paid her sister-in-law for the
caring of her baby; when the baby died I continued to support her
husband. As Mf. Thackery well knows, I bought in one instance a
splendid horse, and paid $150 for it, from Joe Clark.
Mr. Thackery. I do not know anything about that.
Mr. Bentley. I think you do.
The Chairman. You go ahead and testify. You are a lawyer and
you know that while under oath you ought never to appeal to some-
body else to support you. You know that is not proper. Go ahead
and testify.
Mr. Bentley. The husband finally came to Shawnee, Okla., and
Mr. Clark came to me and I gave Mr. Clark $100. The Indian
had been in and asked for $100, and I gave it to Mr. Clark, and he
went up town and paid it to the Indian. And the Indian got into a
crap game and broke it, and they followed him out into the suburbs
and shot him to death, and. when the body was brought into the
morgue there was not a cent on his body. Mr. Thackery sued me,
1738 KICKAPOO INDIANS,
as administrator, for practically the whole sum that the woman had
originally received, some $6,000.
The Cpiairman. Just wait a minute. I want to ask you about
this $2,000 note. You say that you did give her a pencil memo-
randum in the nature of a due bill "payable at your convenience?"
Mr. Bentley. After she had reported she lost the note; but,
mind you, I did that in a country where there was no proper form
available.
The Chairman. Of course, you knew how to draw a note?
Mr. Bentley. Even if I had, I would have given her nothing
different, the note being outstanding. I merely gave her a positive
evidence of there being outstanding $2,000.
The Chairman. What was the object of making it payable "at
your convenience ? "
Mr. Bentley. For fear she might take it and cash it. This note
was out.
The Chairman. You wanted to give her a nonnegotiable instru-
ment.
Mr. Bentley. Sure, I did, until I could determine something
about it.
The Chairman. Why did you not specify in the face of the note
that it was nonnegotiable for the reason that the note was out-
standing ?
Mr. Bentley. There was a great big customhouse room full of
Indians, baggage being inspected, and this w^oman came to me in
the worst confusion, and I grabbed a piece of paper — the train was
waiting.
The Chairman. You knew that that was an unusual form of
obligation ?
Mr. Bentley. Had it not be?n for the note having been lost, I
would have given her a note in the proper form. It was not my
custom to give any sucti notes as that.
The Chairman. You sa}^ you paid the balance of that $2,000
Avith interest. What interest did you pay ?
Mr. Bentley. When the settlement actually was made I only
owed her $400, and my recollection is the check I gave in settlement
included the interest I should have paid, and it was $700 and some
odd. I have forgotten exactly.
The Chairman. When was that settlement ?
Mr. Bentley. I do not remember the date, but 1 think Mr.
Thackery mil, if you will pardon me.
The Chairman. You are testifjdng, and not Mr. Thackery. If
you do not know, that is the answer.
Mr. Bentley. I can only give the date approximately. It was, I
think, the last year that Mr. Thackery was superintendent.
The Chairman. What year was that?
Mr. Bentley. That must have been in 1910, I think, or 1911.
The Chairman. And the money was received in what year ?
Mr. Bentley. Oh, the original money was received back in, I
think, 1894— or 1904—1903 or 1904, somewhere along there.
The Chairman. Then when was this note for $2,000 given i
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1739
Mr. Bentley. 1 am a little out of the record. I could not give
very definitely the date. The first $2,000 on the original note was
paid quickly. She would come in every few days wantmg money,
and I did not pay her any interest. Now, the next note may have
been given — I expect it was three or four years from the tmie that I
made the settlement, but most of that period there was onl}^ actually
due $400 on that note, but I paid approximatel}' the difference be-
tween $300 and $700 finally in mterest and costs, to be out of the
confusion with it and have it settled.
Tlie Chairman. With reference to vour vouchers for the disburse-
ment of this $86,000 fund
Mr. Bentley (interposmg). Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Have you obtained them yet ?
. Mr. Bentley. No, su*; they are not here.
The Chairman, Have you any information as to whether you will
be able to get them or not ?
Mr. Bentley. It is a question. Senator, of my returning to Okla-
homa or Mrs. Bentley coming here.
The Chairman. The matter of most particular interest m this
subject now is the disbursement of that $86,000 fund, as I have
stated several times, and we would like an opportunity to examine
your vouchers, if they can be procured.
Mr. Bentley. If you will take the schedule upon which my set-
tlement was made here, every item in that settlement, with the
exception of one or two, was sustained by receipted bill or check.
The Chairman. We would like to see the receipted bills or checks;
that is the pouit I am making.
Mr. Bentley. I am verj^ \\'illing and anxious to do that as quick
as I can, but I am willing to be interrogated in any item in that
account.
The Chairman. We can not very well interrogate you further now.
Senator Lane. There is one little item I want to inquire about.
Mr. Bentley stated in his testimony that he sold the allotments of
two Indians for $32,000, and only gave a note for $20,000. What
became of the rest of it ?
^Ir. Bentley. We never got the money, Senator. The parties to
whom we sold were to have
Senator Lane. I was asking about the remainder of this $20,000,
relative to which you testified the other night.
Mr. Bentley. The land sold for $32,500, and it is true that the
other night I ac(^ounted for $20,000 only, because somebody cut me
off. The other $12,000 of that $32,000 was largely— some of it was
paid to the Indians, the part that may have been received, but the
balance of it was simpl}^ vacant town lots adjoining Shawnee, and no
money has ever been gotten out of them as yet, but as a settlement
of that matter I executed to my cotrustee an agreement by which in
lieu of those town lots and that property lemaining, that I should pay
him $,50 the first Monday of each month for 10 years, and at the
expiration of that time I v/ould account to him or his heirs for
$10,000.
Senator Lane. How much money was turned over to 3^ou by
Okemah which wont to the Internaticmal Trust Co. — what other
1740 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
accounts belonging to individuals have gone into the hands of that
company? .
Mr. Bentley. There was actually turned over to the international
Trust Co., indirectly, through me, $17,500. As I understand it
Senator Lane. Turned over to you by Okemah?
Mr. Bentley. Turned over by Okemah, my cotrustee, to the Inter-
national Trust Co. I saw the credit on their books, S17,500. Then,
as to the amount that was deposited ^\ith them tlii-ough Congress,
it is my information SI 5,000 more was deposited. Well, no; I am
getting" off — there was deposited with the International Trust Co.
$17,500, and then I was compelled to turn individual money in to
them, $4,500, I beUeve, and deed some land, but in all, I think, some
$23,000 or $24,000, perhaps, that I know of, of Indian money has gone
into the hands of the International Trust Co. since I resigned or was
released as trustee of the Ivickapoo community. Since it has been
incorporated, everything going to it goes into the hands of the treas-
urer of the corporation.
Senator Lane. So the balance of the $32,000 went into the hands
of the trust company ?
Mr. Bentley. Senator, it did indirectly.
Senator Lane. Have they accounted for that money ?
Mr. Bentley. I have not any idea. The obhgation that I owed
Okemah, wherein I paid liim"^from month to month $50 for 10
years. The treasurer of the Kickapoo community brought a
ipower of attorney and threatened suit against me, and in heu of the
$8,250 that he should have paid Ives out of the $15,000, they re-
ceipted to me for the sum I owed Okemah and therefore I have no
knowledge of what they did with the $15,000, other than the
sum of $25 that was sent Mr. Mitscher, treasurer of the commumty,
to pay a stenographer. Otherwise I have no knowledge of it.
Senator Lane. I have a letter here signed ''Martin J. Bentley,"'
dated February 8, 1913, addressed to lh\ Joseph Clark, Shawnee,-
Okla. Did you write that letter at that date [handing paper to
Mr. Bentley] ?
Mr. Bentley. That is my signature.
Senator Lane. Was it ^\Titten at that date ?
Mr. Bentley. Yes, sir; I feel very certain it was [reading]:
Wasitinoton, D. C, FehruaniS, 191.1.
Mr. Joseph Clauk, Shawnee, Okla.
My Dear I^kiend: It is a matter of very great regret to me that 1 have been unable
to secure for vou the $500 that I expected would be paid to you out of the Kickapoo
appropriation So far the Ives warrantees, for which the money was appropriated
to pay, have not been paid out of this money, though the treasurer of the Kickapoo
Corporation authorized by Congress was formed and the money promptly dra^\•n l)y
Mr. Field's partuer. 0. A. Mitscher, of Oklahoma City.
It appeals that Mr. Mitscher was very much in need of these funds, and insteaci ot
the money being used for the purpose for which Congress appropriated it it is being
used for the benefit of Mr. Mitscher. However, it is insisted Irom day to day that
they are going to pav, but from the information received from Oklahoma dty I am
led to believe that they are unable to raise the money, or that it was put into the
business of the Miller-Mitscher firm, and they are unable to get it out.
It had been may intention if the Ives warrantees were taken care of to pay you out of
my own funds rather than see you disappointed, but I have had to pay the warrantees
myself abotit seventy-seven hundred dollars, and was required to sell my property
at a sacrifice, even after the money had been paid by the Treasury to the treasurer of the
Kickapoo Corporation. The whole situation is to be regretted, but I feel that 1 have
done my part and tliat the reward for mv effort is the payment of sevent,y-s(>ven
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1741
hundred dollars and the satisfaction of seeing the Kickapoos" money used for the
benefit of white people to whom the Kickapoos are under no obligation, rather than
for the settlement ot their debts and obligations.
Most respectfully,
(Signed) Martin J. BENTLEr.
I was mistaken in one statement in that letter, however The
«?o^n^ ^ / 1 }^}'J'^^^ warrantees when approximately figured was
$8,250 instead of $7,700.
Mr. Thackery. May I have about two minutes?
The Chairman. Yes, sir.
TESTIMONY OF FRANK A. THACKERY-Resumed.
Mr. Thackery. As to whether or not I have been truthful or
untruthful, I leave that to those who have heard my testimony to
judge Mr. Bentley has referred rather persistently to mv statement
or rather my introduction of evidence, which is a part of the report of
Inspector McLaughlm, showing that he entered into a deal with this
man Grimes in the year 1908 for the purpose of securing throudi
Grimes enough votes to control the council which was to determine the
disposition of this $215,000. Notwithstanding his statements to the
contrary, 1 must say that I was never on particularly friendly terms
with this man Grmies. At the time I took charge of the Shawnee
Agency reheving Bentley, I found a number of five-year leases
executed under Bentley's authority, drawn up, aiVd Mr. Grimes had
signed them and his bondsmen had signed them, and in sending tliem
in to the department for approval they were recommended for
approval for one year instead of five. The leases mostly called for
an improvement ^ consideration— improvement of allotments, and
Mr Grimes, soon after I took charge, came in and complained that
It his leases were to be approved for one year he could not afford to
put all of the unprovements on these lands which he had agreed to
at the time he signed the lease, and at the time his bondsmen had
signed It, with the understanding that he was to hold them five years.
In that matter I did take his case up with the office and represent it
that li he was to hold these lands under these leases which he had
tbf " !f for five years for only one year, he should be consulted in
the matter; the office should not arbitrarily reduce his period of occu-
pancy of this land to one year when he Jiad made a contract under
bond expecting to hold it five years. That was all there was to my
friendly attitude toward this man Grimes. ^
T J^ *^. ^i.^ frequent reference to the Emm a Garland note of $-^ 000
1 do not think the record wiU show that I have attempted to do more
than to impress upon the commission the wording of that note
which I say IS bad on its face, which says that it is -payable at the
frEr''."^ V^'iPl^T"' H'""^ ^'^' ^^'^ ^^^"^g tl^^t I was attempting
.«t. ] ^f ^r r^i ""''^'^ ^'^^?''^ the commission. This girl had been edu-
annP.lp.l f ""' '''''^ u'^ T^^ reasonably good EngHsh, and she
of^tbt i t ' ^1 I'^^l^'' "^ ^"'^^f v^°- 1^^"^"^^ f«^- l^e^ ^ settlement
^ht Z \ -'^^ "^cu"^^" ^^'^ ^'™^- The matter was started
S\ta^?ei- W ctath"!^^^^^^ ^^" ''''' '''''''''' ^^ ' ~^-'
Mr. Bentley. You are mistaken.
nrn;p;Jtnt''''';'-r-.^'''''^^'''^^ ^^'^ f ^^ appointed, and the suit was
prosecuted until it was finaUy settled, just how I do not remember.
1742 KICKA.POO INDIANS.
He says he gave a check in settlement. I do not remember a thing
about^ such a check. I do not think it went through me. The
attorney was Roscoe C. Herrington, of Tecumseh, now living, and
he handled the whole matter for this Indian woman or her heirs, and
.the check, I assert positively, never did go through my hands, and
that would make no difference.
The Chairman. That is just what I am wondering, why either of
you should (juibble about that. The point is whether the suit was
settled, and if it was settled whether fairly settled.
Mr. Bentley. If the Senator wiU pardon me, Mr. Thackery came
before that committee and took it upon himself to say the suit was
pending, when he himself was a party to the settlement of it.
Mr. Thackery. However that may be, this particular case was
brought up to show the bad wording of the note.
The Chairman. That has been stated several times.
Senator Lane. I want to ask you, were you ever interested in any
of these banks in which Indian funds were deposited ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir.
Senator Lane. You never held any stock in those banks or in
interlocking directorates, or anything of that sort ?
Mr. Thackery. No, sir.
TESTIMONY OF THOMAS F. MUSPHY, OF THE INDIAN OFFICE,
DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR.
(The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.)
Senator Lane. What is your position in the service ?
Mr. Murphy. I am a clerk in the ofhce of Indian Affairs at present.
Senator Lane. In the Indian Bureau ?
Mr. Murphy. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Are you still a civil-service employee ?
Mr. Murphy. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. How long have you been with the Government?
Mr. Murphy. Very close to eight years.
Senator Lane. And connected in the same capacity you are now ?
Mr. Murphy. Well, I have been in charge of some agencies and
handled individual Indian money in the field, have had service as
clerk in the field and worked in the office as a clerk.
Senator Lane. You are in the accounting department ?
Mr. Murphy. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. And have charge of the bookkeeping ?
Mr. Murphy. The iise of appropriations and all funds.
Senator Lane. You made an examination of these accounts here
of Mr. Thackery 's?
Mr. Murphy. Together with the other two gentlemen, secretary
and clerk to the commission.
Senator Lane. At whose request ?
Mr. Murphy. At the request of Commissionei- Merritt, I came down
here. I do not know at whose instance.
The Chairman. Senator, let me make an explanation.
Scnatoi- Lane. Yes.
The Chairman. The other day, I think it was after you left,
Senator, Senator Townsend and perhaps Representative Burke sug-
gested that the clerks of the commission go over these checks of Mr.
KICKAPOO INDIANS. 1743
Thackery's, iu conjunction with some one from the Indian Bureau,
and I had the clerks request the commissioner to send some competent
accountant down here to go over these checks to examine them.
Senator Lane. These accounts have never been submitted to your
department ?
Mr. MuKPHY. No, sir.
Senator Lane. You say they are kept in the manner you keep them
up in the bureau, \vith the same accuracy '(
Mr. Murphy. No, sir.
Senator Lane. I understood you to say that.
Mr. Murphy. I said that a legal indorsement to an individual
money check was accepted as a voucher.
Senator Lane. Such indorsements as are upon these checks?
Mr. Murphy. Such as some of those, not all of those; not those we
have taken exception to. Exception would have been taken to those
in- checking up our individual Indian money.
Senator Lane. What would be done with them ?
Mr. Murphy. We would have either made the bank or the superin-
tendent correct them.
Senator Lane. What do you mean by ''correct them?"
Ml*. Murphy. Get a proper indorsement, or in the absence of that
charge it back against the bank.
Senator Lane. How would you be able to ascertain whether it was
a proper indorsement or not ?
Mr. Murphy. The same way we ascertain the indorsement by mark
with no witnesses.
Senator Lane. If it has witnesses, you consider it proper, and if
you send it back and they obtain* some one to witness the signature,
then it becomes proper, does it ?
'Mr. Murphy. I would like to make a statement rather than to make
an answer to your direct question there. The individual Indian
money checks do not pass tlirough us. This individual Indian money
is deposited in a bank to the credit of the individual, and the super-
intendent holds the money as trust funds. He, however, must get
authority from the Commissioner of Indian Affairs before he can
expend it, and he states in his request for the authority whether or
not he wishes to give the Indian the money, or for what particular
purpose he w^ants it, how much stock, harrow, or plow^s, or whatever
he intends to buy for the individual, and upon the approval of that
authority he issues checks in pajaiient of the indebtedness, which
check is signed by the individual Indian and countersigned by the
disbursing officer or agent. Then those checks, when received and
paid by the bank, are forwarded direct to the Auditor of the Treasury
lor the Interior Department, wJio passes upon the indorsement and,
as far as lie knows, the first indorsement of the Indian being correct
and legal, is accepted as a voucher; but the superintendent or agent,
in addition to that, usually gets a receipted bul for his own files, so
that in case anything came up to find out about what tliis check was
used for, he might be able to produce this receipt where lie did not
give the check to the individual for cash.
Senator Lane. You do not require him to do that — kee}) those
vouchers ?
Mr. Murphy. I do not know of any written instructions to that
effect, but as a general rule they do that. I always tlid.
1744 KICKAPOO INDIANS.
Senator Lane. When he reports, at the end of the month, or when-
ever the time is, does he not send in an account showing expenditures ?
Mr. MmiPHY. HQs account merely shows a statement of this
Indian, showing outstanding checks that were brought forward and
checks drawn during the period, with the authority under which they
were drawn.
Senator Lane. No explanation at all as to what expended for?
Mr. Murphy. It is up to the insp.ecting officials to see the progress
that is being made in the field.
Senator Lane. But you do send some one down to inspect that
account ?
Mr. Murphy. The bureau inspecting officials are supposed to take
that up whenever they reach this agency.
Senator Lane. That is a part of their duty, then ?
Mr. Murphy. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Then, you do have a full accounting!
Mr. Muhphy. To that extent.
Senator Lane. Do you ffiid in that case anything of that sort?
Mr. Murphy. I do find these checks that were called to my atten-
tion were not properly indorsed, were not witnessed.
Senator Lane. Mr. Thackery states that he took no bills and issued
no vouchers, except the checks. You require more than that in the
expenditure of Government funds ?
Mr. Murphy. Only in going back to the disbursing officer to find
out what he used the money for, and then he would either produce
these bills or else show that he paid it.
Senator Lane. Mr, Thackery states that he kept no receipts, but
the agents do have to do that as a rule.
Mr. Murphy. I do not know of a!iy written instructions telling
them to do that.
Senator Lane. Would you accept it if it were not done in the
department ?
Mr. Murphy. The auditor never receives any information as to
whether or not it is or is not done.
Senator Lane. If he ffiids it, it is merely indirectly and by hearsay?
Mr. Murphy. If he finds it, it is by complaint or otherwise. The
first indorsement of the Indian on that check or the signature of the
Indian to the check is deemed a receipt for value received.
Senator Lane. And no inquiry is made by the department as to
the expenditure of the money?
Mr. Murphy. Not by the auditor. ^
Senator Lane. By the bureau, the accounting department? ^
Mr. Murphy. Only the inquuy made through its inspecting force
Senator Lane. It has inspectors for the purpose of seeing if moneys
have been properly expended ?
Mr. Murphy. No; they have inspectors who are particular to
inspect the schools, and others to inspect the farming operations, and
others to inspect accounts. They have two inspectors that inspect
accounts.
Senator Lane. Then the accounts are inspected and you know the
methods by which the insp(^ction is made. What is considered an
inspection ?
Mr. Murphy. No, sir; I do not know
KIOKAPOO INDIANS. 1745
Senator Lane. Do they certify them in to the department as being
correct or incorrect ?
Mr. Murphy. As far as I know, these inspectors go to the agency
and check up the accounts of the disbursing officer and make a report
as to any discrepancy or any irregularities.
Senator Lane. That is still another department from yours?
Mr. Murphy. Another branch of the Indian Ofhce.
Senator Lane. And you have nothing to do with that ?
Mr. Murphy. No, sir.
The Chairman. That is all. That closes the hearing for this
morning.
(Thereupon, at n.05 a. m., the joint commission stood adjourned
to meet at the call of the chairman.)
TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION
SERIAL ONE
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
JOINT COMMISSION OF THE
CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES
SIXTY -THIRD CONGKESS
SECOND SESSION
TO
INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS
MAY 25. 1914
PART 14
Printed for the use of the Joint Commission
■<§m
'•SI
WASHINGTON
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFPIOE
1914
Congress of the United States.
JOINT COMMISSION TO INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS.
BBNATORS : RB3PRESBNTATIVES :
JOE T. ROBINSON, Arkansas, Chairman. JOHN H. STEPHENS, Texas.
HARRY LANE, Oregon. CHARLES D. CARTER, Oklahoma,
CHARLES E. TOWNSEND, Michigan. CHARLES H. BURKE, South Dakota.
R. B. Keating, Arkansas, Secretary.
Ross Williams, Arkansas, Clerk.
XL
I
TONGUE EIVER RESERVATION.
MONDAY, MAY 25, 1914.
Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs,
Washington^ D. G.
The joint commission met in room 128 Senate Office Building at
7.30 o'clock p. m.
Present: Senators Kobinson (chairman) and Lane; Representa-
tives Carter and Burke,
TESTIMONY OF JOHN R. EDDY, SUPERINTENDENT AND SPECIAL
DISBURSING AGENT, TONGUE RIVER AGENCY, LAME DEER,
MONT.
(The witness was duly sworn by Senator Lane.)
Senator Lane (presiding). Please give your name to the ste-
nographer.
Mr. Eddy. John R. Eddy.
Senator Lane. Wliere are you from?
Mr. Eddy. Lame Deer, Mont.
Senator Lane. And what is your occupation?
Mr. Eddf. Superintendent and special disbursing agent.
Senator Lane. Of what ?
Mr. Eddy. Of the Tongue River Agency.
Senator Lane. What tribe of Indians?
Mr. Eddy. The Northern Cheyenne Indians.
Senator Lane. And how long have you been in that position?
Mr. Eddy. Since December, 1906.
Senator Lane. How many Indians have you there?
Mr. Eddy. One thousand four hundred.
Senator Lane. Wliat is the state of their health ?
Mr. Eddy. Comparatively fair; but not as good as it has been.
Senator Lane. What is the trouble?
Mr. Eddy. Tuberculosis, trachoma
Senator Lane. Is tuberculosis increasing?
Mr. Eddy. I expect it is.
Senator Lane. Why?
Mr. Eddy. Due to the housing conditions of the people.
Senator Lane. AVhat are the housing conditions?
Mr. EuDr. Conditions that are bad for them, that make for tuber-
culosis. The Indians live in log cabins that were built largely by the
white settlers who formerly lived in that country, and they do not
permit of good ventilation in their homes.
1747
1748 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION.
Senator Lane. Are there any of them living in tepees?
Mr. Eddy. To some extent. They live in tepees, all of them, in
the summer time.
Senator Lane. What do you find to be the difference in their
health living in the tepees and in the log huts?
Mr. Eddy. It would he better for them to live altogether in tepees,
I believe, than in illy ventilated log huts, but it would doubtless be
better for them to live in well-constructed houses than in tepees, if
fireplaces might be provided.
Senator Lane. Why fireplaces?
Mr. Eddy. For enforced ventilation.
Senator Lane. Do 3^ou think a fireplace makes for good ventila-
tion?
Mr. Eddy. I really do; and if a fireplace were fitted in a log hut
with a swinging crane so as to afl'ord a camp inside of the house, we
would get ventilation in the Indian home by accident.
Senator Lane. Is there any way of ventilating their cabins at
small expense?
Mr. Eddy. We know of no good way to ventilate the Indian homes.
The Indians tend to stop up windows and doors.
Senator Lane. What do you have in the way of ventilation? AVhat
is it; just an ordinary log cabin?
Mr. Eddy. With but a single door oftentimes.
Senator Lane. Do you not have any opening up near the roof at
both ends?
Mr. Eddy. There have not been openings of that sort.
Senator Lane. Did you ever think of putting them in ?
Mr. Eddy. We have thought particularly of the fireplace idea.
Senator Lane. You know about these other openings, do you not,
that can be put in under the ridgepole ?
Mr. Eddy. We know they do put in such.
Senator Lane. Did you ever see them ?
Mr. Eddy. No.
Senator Lane. They are very easy to put in. All you have to do
is to cut a hole in there next to the ridgepole and you can put a trap
door to it. In fact, that is what they have to do in Alaska and those
cold countries.
Mr. Eddy. I see the point of that.
Senator Lane. Do you think tuberculosis is increasing? You have
1,400 Indians ; how many cases of tuberculosis have you ?
Mr. Eddy. There are varying reports, some physicians reporting
that there is little and others that there is much. I suspect it is fair
to state that there would be tuberculosis of some sort in nearly all of
those people.
Senator Lane. What are you doing to prevent it?
Mr. Eddy. We are planning to develop the economic status.
Senator Lane. What are you doing now ?
Mr. Eddy. We are improving the economic status.
Senator Lane. In what way?
Mr. Eddy. By developing the resources of the reservation.
Senator Lane. In what way ?
Mr. Eddy. In the the development particularly of the horse and
cattle business and now of the agricultural interests.
i
TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1749
Senator Lane. That will not help them out with tuberculosis, will
it, unless you provide proper living quarters?
Mr. Eddy. I believe so, Senator, because it will afford us funds to
provide better housing facilities. These Indians have been in de-
cidedly destitute circumstances.
Senator Lane. How much trachoma have you?
Mr. Eddy. There is a great deal of trachoma upon the reservation;
possibly 50 per cent.
Senator Lane. Is that increasing or diminishing?
Mr. Eddy. That is being held. We have instituted a very vigorous
trachoma campaign. We provided three nurses last year who stimu-
lated the Indians very considerably. We now have one nurse upon
the reservation devoting her time exclusively to trachoma work —
with very good results, by the way.
Senator Lane. Are not the Indians perfectlj'^ willing to adopt
measures which will cure them and prevent tuberculosis and also
trachoma, if it is explained to them?
Mr. Eddy. They do not readily— Indians as backward as the
Cheyennes — see the point in some of the information we give them.
Senator Lane. In wdiat way do you give them information?
Mr. Eddy. We haA^e had lectures before the Indians and have re-
peatedly pointed out to leading Indians, in talks at the home and in
the schools and at the agency, measures that should be taken to pre-
vent tuberculosis; and we have employed an Indian — ^one of the
better men on the reservation — to take up the matter of providing
better homes, with a view to checking in this way the spread of
tuberculosis.
Senator Lane. How many children are there in these 1.400?
Mr. Eddy. About 350.
Senator Lane. How are they being educated ?
Mr. Eddy. In the reservation boarding school; there are some 67
there now. The capacity of that school is TO to 75. At the Catholic
mission school there are some 38 children now enrolled, and at the
Birney day school there are some forty-odd children. «
Senator Lane. What school is that?
Mr. Eddy. That is a day school where we have two teachers. And
at the Lame Deer day school there is accommodation for about 30
children.
Senator Lane. Hoav many are there of school age who do not at-
tend school?
Mr. Eddy. There would perhaps be 75.
Senator Lane. Why do they not go to school i
Mr. Eddy. There are no school facilities for the others.
Senator Lane. Why not?
Mr. Eddy. Our recommendations in the past to provide them have
not been carried out.
Senator Lane. To whom did you recommend that?
Mr. Eddy. To the Commissioner of Indian Affairs.
Senator Lane. For what reason were they not carried out? Do
you know?
Mr. Eddy. For lack of funds.
Senator Lane. Have these Chevennes anv funds ?
1750 TONGUE RITER IlESERVATION.
Mr. Eddy. They have no funds now. The single fund — the share
they had in the Sioux fund has been capitalized, at our recommenda-
tion, for the purchase of more cattle — some $48,000. The cattle were
purchased this year.
Senator Lane. Now, there are about 75 that do not go to school?
Mr. Eddy. About 75. Well, some of those, perhaps 30, are de-
fectives.
Senator Lane. In what way?
Mr. Eddy. Deaf, dumb
Senator Lane. Is there that percentage?
Mr. Eddy. No ; I mean that with other causes.
Senator Lane. Thirty defectives out of 350 children ?
Mr. Eddy. Probably there might be 60 out of 350 children.
Senator Lane. How do j'^ou account for that?
Mr. Eddy. Possibly in breeding, to an extent — the gi-eat conserva-
tism of the Cheyennes as against any other Indians we know of in the
Northwest.
Senator Lane. Where are these Cheyennes from originally?
Mr. Eddy. They were in the Sioux country up until about 1868.
Senator Lane. In what State?
Mr. Eddy. Throughout the Black Hills country of South Dakota.
They also ranged more or less in their present country. They
claimed quite an extensive territory.
Senator Lane. Is there any syphilis among them?
Mr. Eddy. No syphilis.
Senator Lane. Have they ever had it ?
Mr. Eddy. They have never had it. They are a singularly clean
and moral people.
Senator Lane. What are their habits about drinking?
Mr. Eddy. I have not seen a drunken Indian in eight years on
the reservation. Perhaps there might be three Indians who would
drink off the reservation.
Senator Lane. Are they honest ?
Mr. Eddy. Wonderfully so.
Senator Lane. Will the}^ work?
Mr. Eddy. They will work.
Senator Lane. Do they like to?
Mr. Eddy. They do when they are well paid for their labor, when
they have a market for their labor.
Senator Lane. How long did you say you had been with them?
Mr. Eddy. Eight years. Six months as clerk.
Senator Lane. Seven and a half years as superintendent? How
much land have they ?
Mr. Eddy. Four hundred and sixty thousand acres.
Senator Lane. How much of it do they cultivate?
Mr. Eddy. This has always been considered a nonagricultural
country, up until about three years ago.
Senator Lane. Why?
Mr. Eddy. All of that section was considered nonagricultural,
except small irrigated portions.
Senator Lane. For what reason ? Is it arid ?
Mr. Eddy. It was presumed to be too arid.
Senator Lane. What grew on it before ?
Mr. Eddy. Good grass.
i
TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1751
Senator Lane. Nothing but grass?
Mr. Eddy. That was all.
Senator Lane. What kind of grass?
Mr. Eddy. Buffalo grass — this gramma grass.
Senator Lane. You mean gramma when you say Buffalo?
Mr. Eddy. Yes.
Senator Lane. That is good feed?
Mr. Eddy. There is blue grass, also, in the bottoms.
Senator Lane. That was then a grazing country ?
Mr. Eddy. Yes; so considered.
Senator Lane. And you have, you say, about 460,000 acres?
Mr. Eddy. About.
Senator Lane. Plow much are they tilling now ?
Mr. Eddy. I should judge 3,000 acres this spring. They have
started a remarkable agricultural development this year.
Senator Lane. How many Indians are farming?
Mr. Eddy. I should say 300 able-bodied Indians working.
Senator Lane. Have they made any money in that business?
Mr. Eddy. This is the first year they have gone after agriculture
with any considerable interest. Last year was their best year in
grain. I think this j^ear they are largely interested, because we
thrashed all of their grain last year for the first time.
Senator Lane. How much did you get last year?
Mr. Eddy. We probably got 200,000 pounds; not a very large
development.
Senator Lane. That is 3.000 bushels, is it not?
Mr. Eddy. Something of that sort.
Senator Lane. A little over. How have they made their living
heretofore ?
Mr. Eddy. They eked out a very miserable existence up until about
eight years ago. They had to subsist almost exclusively upon sub-
sistence provided by their treaty funds. There was no labor market
in the country.
Senator Lane. They have a treaty fimd now?
Mr. Eddy. They do now.
Senator Lane. How much does it pa}^ them a year per capita?
Mr. Eddy. The total that they get is a share of about $53,000 each
year.
Senator Lane. Among 1,400 Indians?
Mr. Eddy. One thousand four himdred Indians.
Senator La^e. That is about 300 families?
Mr. Eddy. Well, almost 400. They are very small families.
Senator Lane. That allows them about how much per capita?
Did you ever figure it out?
Mr. Eddy. We use about $28,000 of that for subsistence, which
does not give them much over $25 per capita.
Senator Lane. What do you do with the balance?
Mr. Eddy. That is used for the purchase of equipment — bulls, for
instance, for the herds, and for roads and bridges.
Senator Lane. You say they have lived mostly on this $25 to $50
a year heretofore?
Mr. Eddy. Heretofore. By the way, that accounts for a great deal
of their tuberculosis.
Senator Lane. It Avould not support them ?
1752 TONGUE BIVER RESERVATION.
Mr. Eddy. They were starving people. j
Senator Lane. They were always a little undernourished ? |
Mr. Eddy. That is the point; that is always the point.
Senator Lane. That is the case now with a good many ? '
Mr. Eddy. To a less extent, but still to a degree.
Senator Lane. You say you have only 300 Indians there that are
working and maldng a living from farming ? That leaves you 1,100
Indians?
Mr. Eddy. Yes; but of course they get their returns from their
sales of horses and cattle.
Senator Lane. How long. have they been making money out of ■
cattle? i
Mr. Eddy. For seven years. -
Senator Lane. How much would that amount to?
Mr. Eddy. They have, from an investment of not to exceed $75,000
by the Government, netted in cattle $240,000.
Senator Lane. In what length of time ?
Mr. Eddy. They have been receiving receipts for the last seven
years.
Senator Lane. That is, $240,000 total?
Mr. Eddy. Total.
Senator Lane. That would be about $30,000 a year average?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. The most of that came in during the latter portion
of the term ?
Mr. Eddy. The last five years.
Senator Lane. So you would have to cut that estimate again? _ It
would not average more than $20,000 a year for the whole period,
would it?
Mr. Eddy. Then the sales of pony stock would give them another
income.
Senator Lane. Have you ever figured that out to see just what
their income would be, tosee what one of those Indians would have to
support his family ?
Mr. Eddy. We have figured they would not have over about $80
apiece per year.
Senator Lane. What do you suppose it averages now ?
Mr. Eddy. Over all, probably $12.5.
Senator Lane. $125 a year for the head of a family of man, wife,
and one or two children ?
Mr. Eddy. Well, no ; about $100 apiece over all.
Senator Lane. That makes it better. Do you irrigate that land ?
Mr. Eddy. An irrigation system was provided about seven years
ago. Work was started on Tongue Kiver and about 1,200 acres of
land put under the ditch, divided into 20-acre allotments, the old
owners allowing the allotments to be made in this way, sacrificmg
their holdings in the interest of the common good. These Indians
are doing right well upon their allotments. The inspection that has
been made of the irrigation work throughout the country credits the
Cheyennes with making as good use of their opportunities as any
Indians in the Northwest— that is, in irrigation.
Senator Lane. The rest of the land is farmed under a dry-farming
process
TONGUE KIVER EESEEVATION. 1753
Mr. Eddy. Then on the Rosebud country, which is a very fine val-
ley, which we are now finding will groAV alfalfa without irrigation,
there was an irrigation s,ystem there of a sort that called for fairly
high-class management. It took flood waters rather than any nat-
ural supply. The Indians are doing quite a little there on the
Eosebud.
Senator Lane. With alfalfa ? •
Mr. Eddy. With alfalfa.
Senator Lane. How man}^ acres have they in alfalfa, do you sup-
pose ?
Mr. Eddy. There are probably 1,000 acres in alfalfa ; let us say 800
acres.
Senator Lane. How many crops does it produce per year?
Mr. Eddy. Two good crops.
Senator Lane. How much do you get out of an acre of alfalfa?
Mr. Eddy. They can get from 3 to 4 tons per acre, with fair care.
Senator Lane. What is the alfalfa hay worth?
Mr. Eddy. In the stack, $6
Senator Lane. Whom do they sell it to?
Mr. Eddy. They have not had a market for their hay, except as
the Government has bought about 200 tons a year.
Senator Lane. What became of the rest of it?
Mr. Eddy. They have used that largely to subsist their pony stock.
Senator Lane. Do they have any cattle up in that country where
they have the alfalfa?
Mr. Eddy. There has been no demand for our hay from the outside.
Senator Lane. Do you have any chance to develop one?
Mr. Eddy. We feel we ought to develop it now by tribalizing the
herd which the Indians own, and feeding all our hay into this Indian
herd rather than allowing it to run as a range proposition.
Senator Lane. What do you mean by " range proposition " ?
Mr. Eddy. Allowing the cattle to run at large on the range and
shift for themselves for the winter.
Senator Lane. Do they want the cattle run as a tribal herd?
Mr. Eddy. They have done a very remarkable thing recently.
When we took this matter up with them the Indians declared they
were willing to forego the use of beef as a ration in order to tribalize
the herd and to raise hay and grain to subsist it, and to permit of
the funds being used to pay for all the hay and grain they used. And
if this plan will work as the commissioner tells me he is pleased to
have it work, I feel that the Cheyenne problem is solved.
Senator Lane. In what way? Do you think that will provide for
them?
Mr. Eddy. A labor market is provided for tlieir industries.
Senator Lane. You mean that the cattle will support them?
Mr. Eddy. The cattle and horses will support them. Of course we
are asking for many more cattle, because outside interests now are
using part of the range that should be stocked with Indian cattle.
Senator Lane. How does that happen?
Mr. Eddy. We lease it. We get $3.40 a head for the outside leasing,
for 5,0Q0 head.
Senator Lane. Whom do you lease that to?
1754 TONGUE RIVEE RESERVATION. |
Mr. Eddy. To C. M. Taintor, of New York. There was no leasing
until six years ago. The lessees would not come in upon this reserva-
tion, these Indians had such a reputation as cattle killers.
Senator Lane. Were they cattle killers?
Mr. Eddy. Mr. McPherson, of the Indian Office, said he had re-
ceived more complaints of cattle killing from Tongue Eiver than
from all the reservations combined.
Senator Lane. He has how many cattle ? ;
Mr. Eddy. Five thousand head.
Senator Lane. What do you do with that money ?
Mr. Eddy. That is known- as " Indian moneys, proceeds of labor " ;
and that, like the treaty funds, is available for the pay of employees,
and in this case that goes almost exclusively to Indian employees.
Senator Lane. What do they do?
Mr. Eddy. They serve as line riders.
Senator Lane. What do you mean by " line riders"?
Mr. Eddy. The reservation is fenced.
Senator Lane. Why do you have to have a line rider?
Mr. Eddy. To see that the fence is kept up, and that it is not broken
down.
Senator Lane. How many miles of fence have you ?
Mr. Eddy. About 125 miles.
Senator Lane. And that surrounds the reservation?
Mr. Eddy. That surrounds the reservation.
Senator Lane. How many line riders have you?
Mr. Eddy. Eight.
Senator Lane. What do you pay them? ■
Mr. Eddy. $60 a month. ■
Senator Lane. That is $480 a month. You pay $("..000 a year foF
line riders to guard that fence ?
Mr. Eddy. Of course, they do many other things. They serve as
round-up crews.
Senator Lane. They round-up for whom?
Mr. Eddy. The Indian cattle and horses.
Senator Lane. Do they round-up for Mr. Taintor ?
Mr. Eddy. No; he pays his own expenses.
Senator Lane. Does he have any of these men to check him?
Mr. Eddy. We do check very carefully.
Senator Lane. How do you do that?
Mr. Eddy. By sending a rider in each case— one or two riders,
perhaps three.
Senator Lane. Do you furnish him grub?
Mr. Eddy. On the occasion of coming in, as a rule, the Taintor
outfit would have its wagon with them, and the habit of the country
would be for them to subsist each other.
Senator Lane. And for the Indians to do a lot of roundmg-up,
too?
Mr. Eddy. They really do none of that. Senator.
Senator Lane. You get $17,000 for the rent of this land, and then
you turn around and spend $G,000 of it— one-third of the money—
for people to ride over the range and guard a fence?
Mr. Eddy. Guard a fence, and guard the range against fire, and
act as forest crews and general helpers.
Senator Lane. Does anybody ever break through the fence?
TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1755
Mr. Eddy. Oh, the Indian reservations are subject to depredations
all the time from the outside.
Senator Lane. What do they come in there for ?
Mr. Eddt. Perhaps to take cattle and horses.
Senator Lane. Do they ever steal them ?
Mr. Eddy. We suspect they do.
Senator Lane. Do you take careful count of your cattle ?
Mr. Eddy. Very carefully. We took an individual inventory of
the cattle two years ago, putting them through the chutes and
bobbing their tails.
Senator Lane. Do you brand?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. What is vour brand ?
Mr. Eddy. I. D.
Senator Lane. Did you ever see the I. D. brand changed ?
Mr. Eddy. I imagine it might be changed.
Senator Lane. You do not know that you lose manv cattle or
horses that way?
Mr. Eddy, the line riders protect a great many of them; and
keeping them branded up very close saves them to a" large extent.
Senator Lane. Now, these Indians are living in houses illy venti-
lated; and you think by improving their financial condition they
will be able to build better houses with ventilation ?
Mr. Eddy. I think that is all there is to it.
Senator Lane. As far as ventilation is concerned, Mr. Eddy, you
could get that in any cabin you have there now with an axe?
Mr. Eddy. We would be very happy to do that.
Senator Lane. And just as good ventilation, just as beneficial to
the Indians, as if you imported an expert on that subject and put
it in in some more expensive manner.
Mr. Eddy. Do you mean that your ventilation hole there will stay
open in the winter? It can be seen, can it not?
Senator Lane. The way I have seen them jn some cabins, in the
peak of the roof, they just saw out a little square opening at both
ends and then put a little door there that they' can slide back and
forth with a string on each side. You would" get all the ventilation
in the house you would want by sawing a hole in it.
Mr. Eddy. But they would not keep the hole there.
Senator Lane. Then they would not pay any attention to your
better class of house either, would they ? "^
Mr. Eddy. Well, you see, there would be more windows and more
doors, and more accidental chances of ventilation.
Senator Lane. Then it would be purely accidental ?
Mr. Eddy. I think that is all there is to it.
Senator Lane. Then you will have to do something different from
that; that will not save them. And you need not breed cattle or
take much care about increasing their "financial condition if you are
going to depend upon accident to cure tuberculosis, for it will not
do it. The old-fashioned tepee is a better habitation than any medi-
cal gentleman has been able to invent. It was the simplest and best
type of ventilation that has ever been invented. The fact is. it is
nothing more or less than the same principle that was used in the
old cupola furnace, which, until they invented the blast furnace,
was used for melting iron.
1756 TONGUE EIVER EESERVATION. M
Mr. Eddy. We are not (iiscouragiii^- the Indians in the use of
tepees.
Senator Lane. I think it would pay you to encourage them. You {
will get rid of your tuberculosis; that is, if you teach them to bei
careful about reinfecting one another. {)f course, that you will have i
to look out for.
Mr. Eddy. The Cheyennes, on advice, would stay in their tepees.
Senator Lane. They like to live in them? ,
Mr. Eddy. Yes.
Senator Lane. And if they will make them with double Avails,
and build a modified tent, something after the style of the Sibley
tent, with a cap, leaving this center hole like that [indicating: with
a sketch], you will have then absolutely the best type of ventdation
there is.
Mr. Eddy. Certainly.
Senator Lane. So you think the Cheyenne Indians are doing well,
and better than the average Indians in their improvement and in
their work as farmers?
Mr. Eddy. I think the Cheyenne Indian presents an interesting
example of the hopeful Indian who has done poorly and who be-
lieves that he is now doing well. I can not make comparisons. I
do not know a great deal about the condition of the other Indians.
Senator Lane. Are they happy and contented ?
Mr. Eddy. They have always seemed so to me; singularly so — •
speaking now of the thoughtful Indians.
Senator Lane. What kind of education are you giving them?
Common school ?
Mr. Eddy. They get the common-school education.
Senator Lane. How is the health of those children in that first
school, where you have 75 in the boarding school ?
Mr. Eddy. Very much better than that of any other children on the
reservation.
Senator Lane. Is there much tuberculosis among them ?
Mr. Eddy. Of course the tuberculosis has made its seat among the
Indians probably years ago.
Senator Lane. You can not segregate those ? Are there any active
cases of tuberculosis there ?
Mr. Eddy. No, sir ; they are kept out.
Senator Lane, Now, in the Catholic school?
Mr. Eddy, That is in about the same condition.
Senator Lane. They are in good condition there, you mean ? You
keep the active cases out ?
Mr. Eddy, Yes; the doctor is instructed to allow none of the active
cases or serious diseases to remain,
I might mention, if you would like to know it, that goiter has
settled among those people to the extent, probably, of 30 per cent.
Senator Lane, What does the doctor attribute that to ?
Mr. Eddy, Of course, they now say the alkaline waters
Senator Lane. They have it just as much where they have soft
water as they do where they have alkaline waters.
Mr. Eddy. I understand the southern Cheyennes are not afflicted
with goiter.
Senator Lane. Where are they located ?
Mr, Eddy. In Oklahoma.
TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1757
Senator Lane. There is alkali there; lots of it. A'^liat do voii do
for that ?
Mr. Eddy. Of course we have encouraged those Indians that would
listen to the proposition to go off to have it treated. Just recently
we sent a young man, the agency interpreter, to the Mayo brothers,
and they took a large amount of flesh from his throat.
Senator Lane. How is the Indian getting along now ?
Mr. Eddy. Famously.
Senator Lane. Can not your physician operate on them ?
Mr. Eddy. I do not suppose so in those serious cases. We have not
a hospital. They are planning to give us a hospital this year, but I
suspect in that case the agency physician would not care to"^ undertake
that.
Senator Lane. What did it cost you?
Mr. Eddy. He happened to have funds of his own. He happened
to be related in Oklahoma, and perhaps has a considerable fortune.
He paid some $250.
Senator Lane. There are many of these Indians that have no
money and no way of securing relief?
Mr. Eddy. Well, we would make a way if we could interest them
to go. They are very conservative. I have asked this young fellow
to become a missionary in that field and endeavor to get Indians that
can not afford to go to be willing to go at Government expense.
Senator Lane. The Government would do that, would it?
Mr. Eddy. In every case where I have picked the cases up and sent
them they have paid afterwards.
Senator Lane. How far are you from Mayo Bros. ?
Mr. Eddy. About a day's ride
Senator Lane. That makes it quite convenient.
j Mr. Eddy (continuing). On the train. Of course, we are 65 miles
jfrom the rail.
Senator Lane. Now, you are of the opinion that the general condi-
tion of the Northern Cheyennes is improving in every wav except
physically? " ^
. ^^'- ^,^P^: 'That is my opinion ; yes, sir. That is the general opin-
ion of thinking people who^ave lived in that country for years.
Senator Lane. How many employees are there there?
Mr. Eddy. I have a list liere [handing a paper to Senator Lane].
Senator Lane. There is $9,540 expended in the boarding school.
How many employees are there in the boarding school ?
j Mr. Eddy. About 10.
Senator Lane. How many in the day school?
I Mr. Eddy. Five.
' Senator Lane. What do you mean by " forest "?
I Mr. Eddy. Forest guards — two.
j Senator Lane. " Farm; " that means farmers?
j Mr. Eddy. Farmers.
Senator Lane. How many farmers ?
! Mr. Eddy. Five.
Senator Lane. You farm 3,000 acres of land. That is one farmer
0 600 acres. What do vou pav those farmers ?
Mr. Eddy. Two get $1,200; three get $720.
Senator Lane. What is their work? What do these farmers do?
2^758 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. ;
\
Mr. Eddy. Farm.
Senator Lane. They do farm?
Mr. Eddy. They supervise the farming.
Senator Lane. In what way ?
Mr. Eddy. They go among the Indians and interest them to de-
velop their farming tracts.
Senator Lane. How do they do that? ^
Mr. Eddy. By being constantly with them as advisers.
Senator Lane. And talk with them? -, i. • ^i, '
Mr. Eddy. Largely so; and getting right down and showmg them
how to farm. .
Senator Lane. What crops do they raise i
Mr. Eddy. Oats
Senator Lane. What else ?
Mr. Eddy. Alfalfa, corn; that is, we are starting corn.
Senator Lane. How much corn did you raise last year i
Mr. Eddy. Probably 150 acres.
Senator Lane. How much did it grow ?
Mr. Eddy. It is sqnaw corn.
Senator Lane. How much did you get out ot it i
Mr. Eddy. Not over 25 bushels.
Senator Lane. What else do you raise?
Mr. Eddy. Gardens in every case.
Senator Lane. In every case?
Mr. Eddy. Practically every case.
Senator Lane. What do they raise in the gardens i
Mr. Eddy. The ordinarj^ garden produce : Potatoes, beets
Senator Lane, How is it for potatoes?
Mr. Eddy. A very excellent potato country.
Senator Lane. How many can you raise to the acre i
Mr. Eddy. Two hundred bushels.
Senator Lane. Good potatoes?
Mr. Enor. First-class potatoes.
Senator Lane. How many bushels of potatoes do you suppose yoi
raised last year? ^ „ . , . . _
Mr Eddy. We bought 50,000 pounds from them this spring.
Senator Lane. That is about 800 bushels. What do you use those*
for ' 1
Mr. Eddy. To issue to the Indians generally as seed. ^
Senator Lane. How many Indians raised these potatoes i »
Mr Eddy. We bought those from probably 20 Indians. J
Senator Lane. You know, then, of 800 bushels raised. How mucM
more than that was raised ; do you know ? .
Mr. Eddy. Why, probably 2,000 bushels. J
Senator Lane. What are they worth up there i M
Mr; Eddy. We paid $1.25. P
Senator Lane. A bushel?
S^nafoTL'ANE.^What do you mean here by "house construction "1
Mr Eddy:^ One Indian engaged in the work of teachmg the Indian,
to construct homes.
Senator Lane. A head carpenter ?
Mr Eddy. You might call him that; yes.
TONGUE EIVEK RESERVATION. 1759
Senator Lane. Now, these five farmers— you have five fanners for
3,000 acres of land. I am interested in getting at what those
farmers do.
Mr. Eddv. Well, Senator, with those backward people it takes
much hammering
Senator Lane. Are these farmers entirely engaged in that work ?
Mr. Eddy. Entirely now; yes, sir.
Senator Lane. What do they do in the wintertime ?
Mr. Eddy. This winter a number of the farmers have helped on
house construction at the agency.
Senator Lane. How many months did they do that?
Mr. Eddy. Probably three months this winter.
Senator Lane. Then there are nine months in the year they work
on the farms with the Indians. It is impossible for them to do that
m the winter?
Mr. Eddy. Yes.
Senator Lane. Do those Indians put up any ensilage?
Mr. Eddy. No ; they have not arrived at that point yet.
Senator Lane. They put up hav though ?
Mr. Eddy. Alfalfa hay; yes.
Senator Lane. Do they make any butter?
Mr. Eddy. No butter. They are keeping some milch cows though
Senator Lane. Do they have milk ?
Mr. Eddy. They are just beginning to keep milch cows.
Senator Lane. Is there any tuberculosis in the cattle?
Mr. Eddy. We presume not.
Senator Lane. Have you tested them?
Mr. Eddy They have not been recentlv inspected, but they were
inspected before they were brought in there.
I Senator Lane. Do you raise chickens?
Mr. Eddy They are beginning to keep chickens. These were a
nomadic, shifting people, you know.
Senator Lane. Do they have any musical instruments among
Mr. Eddy. Phonographs only.
Senator Lane. Do they enjoy those?
Mr. Eddy. Very much.
Senator Lane. "Do they have dances ?
Mr. Eddy. To some extent, but not at all as they used to.
Senator Lane. I do not mean the savage dances. Do they dance
the white man's dances?
[ Mr. Eddy. At the schools only.
I Senator Lane. The tango, for instance?
Mr. Eddy. I have not noticed the tango.
I Senator Lane. Are they religious people ?
, Mr. Eddy. After their manner.
I Senator Lane. In what way ?
I Mr. Eddy. They are very religious as Indians, you know. They
Ihave great respect for their concepts; that is, the missionaries do not
imake much of a dent on the Cheyennes.
Senator Lane. What is their religion ?
I Mr Eddy. Well, it is a very devoted appreciation of nature, I
I'^^ould imagine. '
1760 TONGUE RIVEE RESERVATION.
Senator Lane. Have you inquired into it in any particular way?
Mr. Eddy. No; I have not, not as a study; but Dr. Grinnell, who
has studied these people for 23 years, states that the Cheyennes are
perhaps more thoroughly religious than any Indians in the United
States.
Senator Lane. You do not know in what way?
Mr. Eddy. Well, I suppose in respect at all times for the occur-
rences of the day, as things change — the shadow crossing the path,
the sun, the stars — whatever comes to a native people by signs.
Senator Lane. Each one has a meaning?
Mr. Eddy. To them.
Senator Lane. They attach a significance to it?
Mr. Eddy. Very markedly. If you cross before a tepee door at a
certain time it is significant
Senator Lane. Either good or bad luck ?
Mr. Eddy. Yes.
Senator Lane. That is superstition, so called by others who do not
believe in it.
Now, the total of your pay roll is $42,236. How much is that per
capita ?
Mr. Eddy. It would be about $28 ; $17,000 of that, you will notice,
is paid to Indians.
Senator Lane. '\'\Tiat are those Indians doing?
Mr. Eddy. Police interpreters, farmers, school physicians
Senator Lane. Well, it is going into salaries just the same. That
is $30 a year for each Indian's suiyervision ?
Mr. Eddy. The $17,000, of course, filters back into the tribe.
Senator Lane. Yes ; there is $17,000 that comes back into the tribe.
Now, you have " health" here. How many physicians are there?
Mr.EDDY. Two-allowed.
Senator Lane. How many nurses?
Mr. Eddy. One now.
Senator Lane. You have a little hospital there, you say ?
Mr. Eddy. None. We ought to have one.
Senator Lane. Could you not put up some tepee hospitals for your
tubercular cases? What do the doctors think of it?
Mr. Eddy. Very favorably. I think the commissioner's plan is
something of that sort.
Senator Lane. Does it cost much to put up a tepee ?
Mr. Eddy. Very little.
Senator Lane. How much do you think?
Mr. Eddy. $30.
Senator Lane. Now, you have here " stock, $8,760.
Mr. Eddy. That is, employees engaged with stock— the superm-
tendent of live stock , i q ^tti ^ j
Senator Lane. You have a superintendent of live stock i What do
you pay him?
Mr. Eddy. $1,500.
Senator Lane. What does he do?
Mr. Eddy. He supervises generally the live-stock mdustry.
Senator Lane. In what way does he supervise it?
Mr. Eddy. He gets right out and lives with it on the range.
Senator Lane. Watching the cattle?
Mr. Eddy. And the horses and the line riders.
I
TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1761
Senator Lane. How many cattle are there?
Mr. Eddy. Something over 6.000 head.
. Senator Lane. How many horses?
Mr. Eddy. Probably 7.000 head. There are 100 draft breeding
studs in that.
Senator Lane. That is for improving the stock. How is the stock?
Is it getting better?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir; very much better.
Senator Lane. Do these 100 improved stallions run on the range?
Mr. Eddy. They run on the range.
Senator Lane. Do they fight ?
Mr. Eddy. They do not.
Senator Lane. They do not kill one another?
]\Ir. Eddy. Not that we notice.
Senator Lane. You have 13,100 head of stock, and you have a
superintendent. Then you also have how many line riders?
Mr. Eddy. Eight.
Senator Lane. That is nine men to take care of this stock.
Mr. Eddy. There are 10 ; there is another man.
Senator Lane. Is not that almost too many?
Mr. Eddy. The present superintendent of live stock thinks he can
keep them wonderfully busy.
Senator Lane. What would the cattlemen do about that ?
Mr. Eddy. They would have many more.
Senator Lane. How many would they have?
Mr. Eddy. Probabh^ three times as many.
Senator Lane. For that many stock?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. You see it takes almost as many men to loo!:
after that much stock on that reserve as if it was full of stock.
Senator Lane. Is it on account of the character
Mr. Eddy. The character of the ranee all over the country — spread
all over the 460,000 acres.
Senator Lane. Under "irrigation" you have $900 for a man?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir; he is a supervisor.
Senator Lane. What does j^our irrigation amount to? What does
it cost the Indians?
Mr. Eddy. That amount each jear.
Senator Lane. AAHiat did it cost them to put in a plant?
Mr. Eddy. $125,000.
Senator Lane. Has that been paid?
Mr. Eddy. That has been paid. That was constructed under the
supervision of the irrigation division exclusively.
Senator Lane. $125,000 for 1,200 acres of land ?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir; I might say that the chief engineer, Mr. Code,
reporting upon this proposition, stated originally that merely as an
engineering proposition he could not recommend it by reason of the
excessive cost that would be entailed, but as the people in this particu-
lar group were 75 miles from a railroad, had had no advantages since
they had been there for 30 years, and there was very little irrigable
land available, it was worth while as a laboring proposition to un-
dertake the work at great cost.
Senator Lane. You employ Indians a good- deal ?
Mr. Eddy. Exclusively now.
.•;.')001— PTl4— 14 2
1762 TONGUE RIVEK EESEKVATION.
Senator Lake. This land is divided into 20-acre allotments? Every
Indian on the reservation has 20 acres?
Mr. Eddy. No; just as many as the land will run. There are about
fifty-seven 20-acre allotments, I think.
Senator Lane. Did the Indians, Avho secured these allotments, pay
for this cost ?
Mr. Eddy. No ; that was a gratuitous appropriation.
Senator Lake. How did they happen to get the allotments in
preference to anyone else? How did you settle that?
Mr. Eddy. We called the Indians there in council— those who held
the larger tracts through which the canal ran — asking them if they
would not consent to the subdivision, saying that the watered 20
acres would be worth more than the unwatered 100 acres. Theirs is
a communal spirit, and the Indians, after a council, agreed to move
out and allow their neighbors to come in.
Senator Lane. The Indians are all socialistic in that way, you
know.
Mr. Eddy. Very.
Senator Lane. 'Have they had any potlatches there smce you have
been there?
Mr. Eddy. I do not know of any, Senator.
Senator Lake. What would you say is the actual value of those
houses they live in— these log cabins'? What does it cost to build
them ?
Mr. Eddy. The old houses they live in would be valued at probably
$100 or $150.
Senator Lake. What are they built of— logs?
Mr. Eddy. Just logs.
Senator Lane. What kind of logs?
Mr. Eddy. Pine logs. We have a fine timber country— the Mon-
tana mountain pine.
Senator Lake. Not the lodge pole? , i -o- tt
Mr. Eddy. No ; that grows about 100 miles away in the Big Horn
country.
Senator Lane. It would be worth about $100 i
Mr. Eddy. About $100.
Senator Lake. How many rooms?
Mr. Eddy. One or two. o * , i j; -i «
Senator Lake. How many will live in one room ? A whole family «
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. -,■ t ^^ . • ^u^
Senator Lane. That ought to be stopped. They did that in the
tepee, but the tepee ventilated itself. ^ j
What kind of quarters have you? 1
Mr. Eddy. Very good quarters.
Senator Lane. What did your house cost, do you supposed
Mr. Eddy. The value of the house that was built for the super-
intendent would be about $6,500.
Senator Lane. Are you a married man?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Any children?
Mr. Eddy. Two children. , ,, -r^n <>
Representative Burke. I would like to ask Mr. Eddy a few ques-
tions, although I have no information aB to what this inquiry n
leading to.
TONGUE EIVER EESERVATIOJf. 1763
Senator Lane. It is to ascertain what the conditions are on that
reserve so we may compare it with others in a general way.
Eepresentative Burke. Mr. Eddy, in speaking of tepees, do you
have in mind the Indian tepee and not a tent?
Mr. Eddy. I really meant both by tepees, Mr. Burke.
Representative Burke. To what extent are the Indians discon-
tinuing the use of the old tepee and living in the ordinary tent?
Mr. Eddy. To a very considerable extent. There are many more
tents than there are tepees.
Eepresentative Burke. The younger Indians take to the tent
rather than to the tepee, do they not ?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. And the tepee gradually is disappearing?
Mr. Eddy. It is gradually disappearing.
Senator Lane. That is a mistake on the part of the Indians.
Representative Burke. These log houses you have described, have
many of them ceilings?
Mr. Eddy. We have a planer that we got last year, and we have
planned to ceil these one or two room houses for the Indians.
Representative Burke. Are any of the cabins there now ceiled?
Mr. Eddy. None of them.
Representative Burke. Then, if the openings for ventilation were
put in at each end of the cabin, in the gable, as suggested by Senator
Lane, it would furnish ventilation if you could keep it open?
Mr. Eddy. It would; yes, sir.
Representative Burke. Now, you stated your idea of ventilation
was to have them live in houses and have fireplaces?
Mr. Eddy. That has always appealed to me since I have studied
the proposition as the most practical thing to urge generally through-
out the Indian country
Representative Burke. It would be difficult for them to shut oflf
the ventilation ?
Mr. Eddy. That is the point exactly.
Representative Burke. Would it be desirable, in your opinion, to
encourage the Indians to live as they did originally, in tepees, which
means whole families occupying one apartment?
Mr. Eddy. It would not, of course, be progressive to encourage
them to do that, as that would not be inculcating ideas of good moral
relationships, as we understand them, in the one-room tepee. But un-
questionably, from the standpoint of health, it would be better for
the Indians to have the well-ventilated tepee.
Representative Burke. What are the climatic conditions there in
the winter?
Mr. Eddy. Very severe, at times.
Representative Burke. How severe?
Mr. Eddy. It is sometimes 40 below for two or three days at a
time.
Representative Burke. Do you have much snow ?
Mr. Eddy. Not so much snow, but considerable at times. For
four winters up until two years ago we had a good deal.
Representative Burke. Over what period of time does that ex-
treme cold last?
Mr. Eddy. In my experience, it has lasted for 30 days at a stretch,
but generally not more than 5 or 6.
1764 TONGUE EIVEK EESEEVATION.
Representative Bui^ke. But during a period of how many months?
Mr. Eddy, Four months.
Representative Burke. During the winter months is there a ten-
dency on the part of these Indians to get together, more than one
family in a cabin, living in one house ?
Mr. Eddy. They tend to congregate somewhat, but not as much
perhaps as you have noticed among some other Indians.
Representative Bueke. What do they use for fuel ?
Mr. Eddy. Wood, mainly.
Representative Burke. Can they get an abundance of fuel?
Mr. Eddy. A great abundance.
Representative Burke. Your reservation contains 400,000 acres?
Mr. Eddy. Yes.
Representative Burke. How are the Indians located upon that
reservation with relation to the agency ?
Mr. Eddy. They are very widely dispersed; up and down the
Rosebud Creek, a stream about 40 miles long, a third of them are
located ; on the various side creeks on the reservation another third ;
and on Tongue River about a third.
Representative Burke. AVhen you say a third here and a third
somewhere else, does that mean that they are divided into three
bands, living along different rivers or creeks?
Mr. Eddy. They are really divided into five rather distinct bands.
They do not mingle much as between bands. And two of these bands
would be strung along that Rosebud Creek.
Representative Burke. How long a distance?
Mr. Eddy. Forty miles.
Representative Burke. What is the farthest point from the agency
where there is any Indian living?
Mr. Eddy. About 32 miles.
Representative Burke. Is the agency located so it is reasonably
near the center of the reservation?
Mr. Eddy. The location is perhaps as good as it could be, the roads
being as they are.
Representative Burke. One of these schools is located at the
agency ?
Mr. Eddy. One at the agency.
Representative Burke. Where is the Catholic school?
Mr. Eddy. That is 25 miles from the agency.
Representative Burke. Where is the Birney Day School ?
Mr. Eddy. That is 2.5 miles in a different direction, and 25 miles
from the Catholic school.
Representative Burke. Where is the Lame Deer School ?
Mr. Eddy. At the agency.
Representative Burke. That is the agency school?
Mr. Eddy. But the Busby School is the training school, 18 miles
from the agency. All the schools are separate from each other.
Representative Burke. Do any of the Indians attend nonreserva-
tion schools?
Mr. Eddy. We have had very poor success with nonreservation
schools. The first year I took charge I was struck with the back-
ward condition of the children, and thought it would be well to send
a good many of them off, and I sent 35 to Carlisle the first six months,
TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1765
but the results were so disastrous I could not bring myself again to
encourage the Indians to go great distances.
Senator Lane. In what way was it disastrous?
Mr. Eddy. There was such a tremendous death list — sickness —
homesickness.
Representative Bueke. Do any of these Indians attend the schools
in North Dakota or South Dakota?
Mr. Eddy. Some of them have attended the Rapid City schools —
to good advantage, by the way.
Representative Burke. What number of children belonging to this
reservation were in nonreservation schools this last year, if any ?
Mr. Eddy. Not over 10. I think it should b^ made clear to the
committee why that should be so. The Indians have not got over the
Carlisle and Haskell experience.
Representative Burke. Of the amount of money that was appro-
priated under the 1877 treaty for subsistence, has any portion been
used to pay for Indian labor instead of purchasing subsistence and
issuing it to the able-bodied Indians?
Mr. Eddy. The way we have handled that has been to recognize
that at our isolated point the treaty funds w^ould buy twice as much
subsistence for the Indians as if we gave them labor out of the treaty
funds, and then they used the proceeds to buy subsistence. And
because of that fact we have thought it was good administration,
in the face of criticism at this end, to feed practically all of those
Indians and support two basic industries which have developed at
a rate which will very soon mean absolute independence for the
Northern Cheyennes if these policies are supported.
Representative Burke. Now, briefly, what were the conditions that
obtained upon this reservation when you first went there, about eight
years ago, I think you said?
Mr. Eddy. Eight years ago. The Indians were in an absolutely
disheartened state. They had no resources other than as you pro-
vided them in the treaty funds. They could not get any grazing
funds, of course, although they had no cattle, because their reputa-
tion was such that the white lessees would not come in. On that
proposition I had to make a year's personal canvass in that country
to induce the people to come in, although now they jump over each
other. There was very little work in the local country for those
people, and the Indians were disheartened and poor.
Representative Burke. What educational facilities did they have
at that time?
Mr. Eddy. They had the Catholic school, and this boarding school
had been constructed about two years previous to my going there,
and this Lame Deer school. There was no school at Birney in this
Tongue River district.
Representative Burke. Then, at that time they were practically
subsisting largely upon what the Government issued to them in ra-
tions? Did they do any hunting or fishing?
Mr. Eddy. Game had been pretty well worked off. They, of course,
got a few prairie dogs, and they did fish a little, but they had very
little to eat.
Senator Lane. Did they eat prairie dogs?
Mr. Eddy. Oh, yes; they eat dogs.
1766 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION.
Representative Burke. When was it that you first began the crea-
tion of a herd of cattle or other stock on this reservation?
Mr. Eddy. The first stock provided for was by the act of May 27,
1902, and we got 1,000 heifers and 40 bulls in July, 1903, as the result
of that legislation, costing $28,000.
Representative Burke. That was before your time?
Mr. Eddy. Yes; but there had been no sales from that group.
Then, in 1906, due perhaps to the pressure we put upon the propo-
sition, we got under the act of June 21, 1906, another 1,000 heifers
and 40 bulls. As a matter of fact, it should be stated that of the first
1,000 heifers 370 of them were not breeding heifers, making really
only 1,700 heifers that have been provided those people by the Gov-
ernment.
Representative Burke. Was there not some spayed stock in there ?
Mr. Eddy. Yes; that was the point.
Representative Burke. You say that for eight years you have
produced from stock about $240,000, and a large part of it the last
five years
Mr. Eddy. In net results; and we have, in addition to that, a de-
tailed inventory taken on the range of $300,000 value, which makes
a cattle showing of $500,000 returns and better.
Representative Burke. What were the returns of last year of
which you have an account ? M
Mr. Eddy. About $48,000. . 1
Representative Burke. How did that compare with the preceding
year
Mr. Eddy. An increase, I think, of $6,000.
Representative Burke. And how that year over the year before?
Mr. Eddy. About $38,000.
Representative Burke. Do you know whether or not this idea of
purchasing stock and encouraging Indians along industrial lines,
as we are rapidly developing, began anywhere else than upon this
reservation ?
Mr. Eddy. Really, I do not know that; it may, of course, have
been done, but perhaps not distinctively as a stock proposition.
Representative Burke. Have you been advocating this policy, and
have you appeared at any time before either the committee of the
Senate or the committee of the House with reference to this propo-
sition? ^ ^ .p .1 /-,
Mr. Eddy. I have recognized, Mr. Burke, that if the Congress
would see fit to stock this reservation the Indians would be very soon
altogether self-supporting. I have recollection in 1908 of having
directly recommended to the attention of the commissioner that he
provide 3,000 cows with calves at side, from funds to be made reim-
bursable, indicating from the showing we had made that such appro-
priations might be returned to the Treasury in a very short time, and
these Indians would be entirely beyond need of gratuitous relief. _
Failing in that, I have interested myself in interesting Mr. (jrin-
nell and "others to endeavor to get philanthropic funds, at 4 per cent
if need be, to quickly stock this reservation, knowing that health,
education, and the general advance of these Indians would come if
we had the monev to support the industries that were needed tl^ere.
Representative Burke. Have you not appeared subsequent to 1908
before some of the committees of Congress advocating this idea ?
i
TONGUE EIVER EESEEVATION. 1767
Mr. Eddy Yes, sir. Mr. Abbott, Mr. Valentine, and Mr. Leupp
have pennitted me to boost for these propositions ever since I have
.nTte^^. T r^''\' r^ \ ^f T'^ \ have talked to you about tLese
^AnW« \ 7 \^''' ^''^^'^^ ^?*^^ ^^'- -^^ondell, Mr. Carter, Mr.
Stephens, Senator Myers, and others of the Senate, so as to aive
nS\ern Sy^nef '" ^''^^"^ ^' '''' ^^^^^^"^^^ ^^P-*-^ ^« ^1-
Mr. Eddy. Their capital share was about $48,000
Kepi^sentative Burke. My question was: Didn't they have?
Mr. Eddy. They did.
Representative Burke. Did not Congress recently— I think, per-
haps, last year-aiithorize the withdrawing from the Treasury of
their share of that fund for the purpose of adding it to the other
vato? ^n^i^ns and increasing the herd of cattle on that reser-
Mr. Eddy. They did.
Eepresentative Burke. And what was that amount?
Mr. Eddy. $48,000.
Representative Burke. Do you remember appearing before the
Indian Committee of the House when you recommended and advo-
cated that that be done?
Mr. Eddy I do, once or twice, on the petition of the Indians that
we urged them to get behind four years previously. We showed
them they could get 40 per cent rather than 4 per cent if they would
put that money into cattle.
Representative Burke. How much money has the Government
■^ff^Wropriatmg annually for the last 10\years under the treatv
01 lo77 t
Mr. Eddy. $99,000 over all, to be divided between the Northern
Cheyennes at Lame Deer and the Arapahoes at Wind River, out of
which we got our pro rata share. We have 1,400 Indians- thev
have something over TOO Indians.
Representative Burke. I understand. How much has it been an-
nually at this reservation?
Mr. Eddy. About $53,000.
Representative Burke. What is going to be the outcome, in vour
opinion, if you continue this plan that has been adopted and whi. h
prevails there to-day with relation to the tribe ultimatelv becomin.-
self-supporting; and if so, when?
?^^i?,°^^^ ^ believe in six years we can take those Indians entirelv
out 01 the Treasury.
Representative Burke. Are you familiar with the treaty of 1877^
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. What does it provide?
Mr. Eddy. It provides that those Indians shall be supported bv
the (jovernment until they are capable of self-support
Representative Burke. Then there will be no obligation restiiK'
upon the Government under that treatv to continue the oratuUv
appropriations when they do become self-supporting «
Mr. Eddy. None. ^ '
Representative Burke. When was this reservation fenced?
1768 TONGUE EIVER RESERVATION".
Mr. Eddy. About 10 years ago three-quarters of the reservation
was fenced, and 8 years ago the last quarter.
Representative Burke. How was that paid for?
Mr. Eddy. The last quarter by a special act of Congress, thi act
of May 27, 1902.
Representative Burke. The cattle that you sa}^ have been ranging
there, owned by Mr. Taintor — do they run generally over the reser-
vation in connection with the tribal herd ?
Mr. Eddy. Mixed with the tribal herd — not the tribal herd; this
is run individually in 460 separate brands now, but we hope to have
it merged.
Representative Burke. Is the reservation divided by fence?
Mr. Eddy. Not by fence.
Representative Burke. How do you keep the cattle separate?
Mr. Eddy. We do not attempt to.
Representative Burke. You have them ranging in together?
Mr. Eddy. They range together.
Representative Burke. And at the round-up time they are sepa-
rated, I suppose, and when they are shipping they cut out their
cattle which are branded?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir; the permittee brings in his outfit, and we liave
our outfit. They all work together but feed apart.
Representative Burke. Is it your intention to continue this leasing
proposition indefinitely ?
Mr. Eddy. I have always been against the leasing proposition, ex-
cept as it was the second best thing. ^
Representative Burke. If the tribal herd increases, I presume you
will have to discontinue it?
Mr. Eddy. We have really made a provision in the present per-
mit to reduce the number of lessee cattle, provided that Congress
provides the money for additional cattle as asked.
Representative Burke. How do you determine who the lessee is
to be and what rate he is to pay ?
Mr. Eddy. By competitive bids, opened in the Indian Office.
Representative Burke. How long are those leases made for?
Mr. Eddy. Now, three years ; formerly, one year.
Representative Burke. Have you had any trouble on account of
differences between the Indians and the employees of the cattle com-
pany by reason of the fact that this lessee is in the reservation?
Mr. Eddy. No great amount on that account, but they are troubled
on their accounts with the permittees.
Senator Lane. In what way?
Mr. Eddy. Only last year we had three investigations resulting
from the differences that arose between two partners on that reser-
vation which cost us a great deal of money and which netted no good
to the reservation and have stirred the Indians badly.
Representative Burke. Differences between lessees?
Mr. Eddy. Partners falling out themselves and calling upon the
Government to settle their differences.
Representative Burke. What differences?
Mr. Eddy. One permittee charged, through his foreman, that the
other had put on some 1,300 head of cattle by stealth, and three in-
vestigations were ordered to determine whether or not this was a
TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1769
fact. The investigations determined really nothing; nothing could
be proved.
Eepresentative Burke. Have you had any trouble with fire on
that reservation?
Mr. Eddy. We have been very fortunate in being able to suppress
practically all fires as soon as started in the last eight years.
Representative Burke. Have you had any fires started due to any
feeling between Indians or the reservation against these permittees?
Mr. Eddy. None at all. The Indian feeling has been a good feel-
ing. There have been no differences up until a year ago between
whites and Indians that I have noticed.
Eepresentative Burke. Are all these Indians allotted ?
Mr. Eddy. None of them. This is an unsurveyed reserve.
"Representative Burke. The only allotments then are these
Mr. Eddy (interposing). Tentative allotments that the Indians
are
Representative Burke (continuing). These irrigible 20-acre tracts?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. Pardon me, there was a large fire, Mr. Burke,
about five years ago through the forest.
Representative Burke. Of this amount that was expended at the
boarding school, does that include subsistence and clothing?
Mr. Eddy. No; this amount is the salary — the ordinary salary list
that obtains at most boarding schools.
Senator Lane. These cattle, you say, run together on the range?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. How can you separate the increase in the stock of
the Indians from the lessees's cattle?
Mr. Eddy. We provided against that by determining at the start
that the lessee should not have anything but steers on the reservation.
Senator Lane. So he gets no increase?
Mr. Eddy. He gets no increase. And one of the provisions of the
contract is that all mavericks upon the range are Indian-owned
cattle.
Representative Burke. There is one other question I wanted to
ask. To what extent do these farmers perform any services in con-
nection with the cattle of the Indians or having to do with branding
or rounding up, or in any other respect ?
Mr. Eddy. In the past, previous to two 3'ears ago, when farming
was less active than it is at the present time, we used the farmers to a
very considerable extent in connection with the stock work. We
have not had these Indian line riders except for about a year. This
has been to turn the Indians into their own work.
Representative Burke. Did we not use to make an appropriation
specifically for a line rider?
Mr. Eddy. Two line riders. That was because of representations
that there was a great deal of cattle killing down in that particular
corner of the reserve where they were supposed to ride.
Senator Lane. What is the percentage of full bloods as to breed?
Mr. Eddy. That is shown by stating that there are probably not
more than 10 intermarried whites on the reserve. It is practically a
ftill-blood proposition.
Senator Lane. What kind of tribal organization do they have?
Do they hold councils? Do they have a business committee?
1770 TONGUE EIVER RESERVATION.
Mr. Eddy. They have a business committee.
Senator Lane. Do they take an interest in the business affairs?
Mr. Eddy. They really do. Everything is put to them of interest
to the tribe.
Senator Lane. You have a field matron?
Mr. Eddy. One field matron.
Senator Lane. AVhat is her work?
Mr. Eddy. Serving as best she can to accomplish what good she
can with the Indian women.
Senator Lane. How does she go about that work?
Mr. Eddy. She is provided with a saddle equipment and a buggy.
Senator Lane. She visits the Indians in their homes?
Mr. IEddy. She visits the Indians in their homes — a very indus-
trious woman.
Senator Lane. What does she teach them?
Mr. Eddy. As best she can among those backward people, that it is
well to clean their houses, to care for their bal)ies, to wash their
clothes, and she encourages them in the use of funds they may have.
Senator Lane. You were talking about tepees a while ago. You
understand a tepee, then, to be any kind of tent?
Mr. Eddy. I really do not. Senator, but it is generally used that
way.
Senator Lane. The Indians, you say, are virtuous ?
Mr. Eddy. They are.
Senator Lane. Were they always so?
Mr. Eddy. They always have been so.
Senator Lane. 'Even when they lived in the tepees ?
Mr. Eddy. Eather better so.
Senator Lane. Then you do not think that if they moved back into
the tepees— I mean tepees, not tents — that they would suffer in any
way? Their health would, perhaps, improve and their morals would
be just as good ?
Mr. Eddy. No; you know there is a general deterioration — there
must be always among a people subject to the strictures of reserva-
tion life.
Senator Lane. I mean, it would be as good as it would be in one-
room cabins?
Mr. Eddy. Oh, as good as in a single-room cabin; but we aim,
Senator, to have two or three rooms, and separated, so that they may
be easily cleaned.
Senator Lane. With regard to goiter, has that been on the increase
under Government control?
Mr. Eddy. I suspect they always tended toward goiter; I do not
know that.
Senator Lane. Did you ever inquire?
Mr. Eddy. I did not happen to inquire.
Senator Lane. I did not know how it was either. Now, you say
they have not been specifically allotted ?
Mr. Eddy. They have never been allotted — never been surveyed.
Senator Lane. "I thought you said there were 20-acre allotments.
Mr. Eddy. By that I man we arranged for the Indians to take
tentative allotments, which, doubtless, ultimately will be awarded to
them as their home sites.
Senator Lane. Twentv acres of land that is irrigible?
I
TONGUE EIVER RESERVATIOlSr. 1771
Mr. Eddy, Yes.
Senator Lane. And has water available? There is a good deal of
surplus land there — is there, do jou think?
Mr. Eddy. We would like very much to stock it.
Senator Lane. If you stocked it, how many head of stock would
it carry?
Mr. Eddy. ^Ye think we could carry 30,000 head with winter feed-
ing. That would give them an increase of nearly $30,000 a year.
Senator Lane. Are those Indians increasing in numbers?
Mr. Eddy. Oh, they are holding their own.
Senator Lane. There are about as many deaths as there are births?
Mr. Eddy. About a stand-off. There is a great deal of infant
mortality.
Senator Lane, '^^'liat is that due to — summer complaint?
Mr. Eddy. Well, I suppose, in large part to the fact that the Indian
mother there among those Indians will give the child watermelon
rind, perhaps, or other indigestible things.
Senator Lane. That will produce indigestion?
Mr. Eddy. I think it is that more than anything else.
Mrs. Laura J. Kellogg. May I ask Mr. Eddy a question?
Senator Lane. Certainly.
Mrs. Laura J. Kellogg. I want to ask Mr. Eddy how many fam-
ilies he has on the reservation?
Mr. Eddy. About 400.
Mrs. Laura J. Kellogg. Does one field matron do all the work for
the 400 families?
Mr. Eddy. Unhappily we have but one.
Mrs. Laura J. Kellogg. You said a while ago there were great dis-
tances between various families.
Mr. Eddy. Yes.
Mrs. Laura J. Kellogg. Does she cover all that?
Mr. Eddy. Oh, no. She only aims to work within the radius that
would be tributary to one station.
Mrs. Laura J. Kellogg. She goes from band to band then at dif-
ferent seasons of the year?
]\fr. Eddy. No; she stays at the agency and works the country that
would be tributary to the agency location.
Mrs. Laura J. Kellogg. Do you not consider, Mr. Eddy — I am in-
terested in your ideas — that this field matron's work is the most
practical social conservation work that can be done on the reserva-
tion?
Mr. Eddy. I can not think of anything that will be more helpful
to the Indians than the spread of the field matron service where you
get actual social-service workers.
Mrs. Lauka J. Kellogg. Has that ever been suggested, do you
know ?
Mr. Eddy. I have recommended, I think, that we have five field
matrons at our place. I believe in that sort of thing, Mrs. Kellogg.
Mrs. Laura J. Kellogg. In my knowledge of Indians, I think that
is the most effective thing there is in the way of really practical social
service.
Mr. Eddy. Surely.
Mrs. Laura J. Kellogg. What is her salary?
Mr. Eddy. $720 per annum.
1772 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION".
Mrs. Lauka J. Kellogg. Do you consider that adequate to get a
woman — for instance, a woman who has had training in domestic
science ?
Mr. Eddy. I do not consider it adequate. A thousand dollars
would appear to me to be a standard that would be respectable.
Mrs. John M. Simpson. May I ask Mr. Eddy a question?
Senator Lane. Yes.
Mrs. John M. Simpson. We had some experience in social work
which we found very successful in Oklahoma. We did not go in
and tell them they must clean up their houses, but we went in and
told them we were going to hold a party at their house— perhaps tell
them through an interpreter. My husband was there in the interest
of agriculture, and I believe I may take the liberty of referring to
the Member here who, I think, said once that my husband was the
first, or among the first, to introduce agriculture in that State.
We would hold a meeting and call it an agricultural club or the
Indian farmers' club, or some other name that sounded impressive
to them. We would advertise it in the paper, and send them the
paper. The children could usually read the paper. We would tell
them what time it was going to be. They called in their neighbors—
their tenants, who were often white people— and they cleaned up
their houses, baked their cakes, cooked their turkeys, and set their
table, and we had a photographer there and we had a picture taken.
We usually had the babies in front. And there was nothing they
gloried in so much as to have one of those pictures on the wall
somewhere. We found that had a stronger influence, a greater
influence in tending toward a better way of living than any other line,
of work we took up. We took that up voluntarily ; it was my propo-
sition really, and the ladies took as much pride in preparing for
that reception as many of our Cabinet officers do.
Senator Lane. Now, your idea is to stock that reservation with
cattle, and that it will carry 30,000 head ?
Mr. Eddy. Thirty thousand head; you will have to eliminate horses
when you get that many cattle.
Senator Lane. How many acres of that land have you that you
could raise feed on for winter ?
Mr. Eddy. We believe 30,000 acres.
Senator Lane. You think you have 30,000 acres that you could
raise alfalfa on?
Mr. Eddy. Good feed. Much of that is high-divide land that
might raise alfalfa. It certainly would raise grain.
Senator Lane. You would have to farm 30,000 acres, or about
that, in order to carry your stock through the winter ?
Mr. Eddy. We would; but in many places we could cut wild hay
and spread it in the corrals about the reserve, convenient for feeding.
Senator Lane. That is crowding it, of course, to the limit?
Mr. Eddy. Not with winter feeding, you see. It would be if it
was run as a straight range proposition.
Senator Lane. You issue rations how often ?
Mr. Eddy. Once a month.
Senator Lane. They do not raise enough to subsist them now, do
they ? You were telling me that before.
Mr. Eddy. Hardly enough. They may this year. ^
Senator Lane. They never have ? p
TONGUE EIVER RESERVATION. • 1773
Mr. Eddy. They never have.
Senator Lane. Now, ]Mr. Bostwick — I notice his name there, in
the automobile business — who is he ?
Mr. Eddy. Mr. Bostwick was a contractor.
Senator Lane. Where is he now ?
Mr. Eddy. At the Crow Agenc}^, running a sawmill.
Senator Lane. At the Crow Agency?
Mr. Eddy. Crow Reservation.
Senator Lane. Is he any kin to Mr. Bostwick the cattleman ?
Mr. Eddy. No kin ; this a Black Hills man.
Senator Lane. You said 3'ou were rationing about 1,300 Indians?
Mr. Eddy. Practically all the Indians.
Senator Lane. And the beef contract, you said, was owned by
whom ?
Mr. Eddy. Willis M. Spear.
Senator Lane. Who is he ?
Mr. Eddy. He is a wealthy cattleman residing in Sheridan, Wyo.,
one of the lessees on the Crow Reservation.
Senator Lane. How do 3'ou get beef from him? Does he drive
it in and butcher it there ?
Mr. Eddy. He brings in beef monthly for several months, and
then the winter beef is brought in in December.
Senator Lane. And then frozen ?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. It might be interesting to know that the
Indians pledged themseh'es about two months ago to eat no more
beef, believing that they can not afford to, and that they ought to
put that into other subsistence to attack that tribal stock-growing-
proposition.
Representative Burke. I wish you would develop how long they
have been using that cold-storage proposition?
Senator Lane. Will you answer that?
Mr. Eddy. A few months.
Representative Burke. They were killing monthly before that?
Mr. Eddy. For the last five years we have been slaughtering in
December or Januarj^, carrying just as much as we could through,
to save all the winter feed we could, and also to prevent shrinkage.
We have always bought cows, because the Indians boil their beef
and ship the better steers to market. It was not a good business
proposition to buy cows from the Indians.
Senator Lane. You mean to say that you buy beef of Mr. Spear,
who raises it over on the Crow Reservation? Is that right?
Mr. Eddy. I imagine he raises it there.
Senator Lane. Yes; he is one of the men that have a large lot of
stock there. He ships it over to your reservation, and at the same
time you sell cattle of your own to the market?
Mr. Eddy. Yes; we raise much better cattle than are raised any-
where in the country, and command the highest prices on the Chi-
cago market, and that being the case it pays us to buy the cheaper-
cows, which the Indians use and boil, rather than use this expensive-
beef.
Senator Lane. How much do you pay for beef?
Mr. Eddy. Now, 6 cents.
Senator Lane. What do you get for your cattle?
Mr. Eddy. Seven and eight cents.
1774 . TONGUE EIVER RESERVATION. '
Senator Lane. So you make a profit by selling your own and
buying the other man's ?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir. Of course, 6 cents is only the recent price.
Representative Carter. You only get 7 and 8 cents?
Mr. Eddy. We have got 8^, but generally 7 and 8.
Representative Bubke. That is a good price for grass cattle.
Mr. Eddy. They are all grass cattle. We are now feeding them
some grain.
You mentioned the superintendent's house and the social service
work. In connection with that I think it ought to be known that,
although that house represents a considerable cost, it was built very
largely as a social center for Indians and whites on the reservation. _
Representative Caktek. How many Indians have you on this
reservation ?
Mr. Eddy. About 1.400.
Representative Carter. How many acres of land are there in the
reservation?
Mr. Eddy. About 460,000 acres. 1
Representative Carter. How much of it is in the so-called 20-acre
allotments ?
Mr. Eddy. Along the Tongue River ditch there are about 57 of
those 20-acre allotments.
Representative Carter. Would there be sufficient irrigable land to
give each Indian a 20-acre allotment?
Mr. Eddy. There are about 7,000 acres of irrigable land on the
reservation that it would take about $300,000 to develop. It is very
expensive. It runs for 35 miles, and the canal would be for about a
mile parallel to the river.
Representative Carter. How many acres have you now that is
being used for pasturage?
Mr. Eddy. Four hundred thousand, about.
Representative Carter. That will pasture about how many cattle?
Mr. Eddy. About 30,000. We have the best grazing land, probably,
in Montana.
Representative Carter. Do you think it is a better plan to have an
Indian tribal herd than to have the cattle individualized and let
everv man own his own portion of them?
Mr. Eddy. Ultimately the Indians must individually own their
cattle. We have planned, however, to stock the reservation, so that
when that time came the reserve would be stocked with cattle, and it
would be an unanswerable argument to those who wanted to diminish
the reservation.
Now, it is readily seen that if we tribalize the herd we can arrange
for winter feeding by buying every pound of grain and hay that the
Indians raise from the sales. That gives every Indian a liberal mar-
ket, and the value, you see, will come back to the Indian again when
the cattle are sold, because the stock will be so much heavier and
better. And to get more money immediately — which has been our
work and aim there — we have felt it best, and the coimnissioner has
believed it best, to tribalize the herd under the situation we now
liave.
Representative Carter. How many have individual cattle now?:
Mr. Eddy. About 400 to 450.
TONGUE EIVER EESEEVATION. . 1775
Kepresentative Carter. Aiid your policy now is to take av^aj those
cattle they have individually and place them all in a tribal herd?
Mr. Eddy. That is the plan; and that having been presented to
the Indians, they are practically unanimous in approval of the idea.
Kepresentative Carter. Hoav are those Indians getting along that
have their own small herds?
Mr. Eddy. Fairly well; but of course the Indian is not in the cat-
tle business as he is in the horse business. His relation with his
horses is intimate. With cattle it is not an intimate relation.
Representative Carter. I take it from what you have said you
think the Indians have not yet reached the point where they could
be trusted to have the cattle individualized?
Mr. Eddy. The}^ really have not. These Indians are backward.
Kepresentative Carter. Do you not think these Indians who have
their individual herds might take a step backward when you bring
them into a tribal ownership ?
]Mr. Eddy. Really I do not, because the horse herds will remain as
individual property, and they will take a step forward in that they
will go to work upon their farms and have a market for their labor.
Representative Carter. Are these herds horses or cattle, or both?
Mr. Eddy. They are both.
Representative Carter. How much have you in the tribal herd
now?
Mr. Eddy. None in the tribal herd ; they are all individualized.
Representative Carter. How much will it cost to build up this
tribal herd that you are speaking of?
Mr. Eddy. We had hoped — we did present to the commissioner a
proposition that $200,000 be at once set aside to fully stock the ranee
at once. But we have $48,000 worth of cattle that will come this
sjDring — 1,100 head, about — and the provision of the bill calls for a
$50,000 purchase of cattle. We think this, with the 6,000 we have,
Mr. Carter, will put us, as I say, very well along at once.
Representative Carter. There is $50,000 in the present bill ?
Mr. Eddy. There is $50,000 in the bill for this purpose.
Representative Carter. That, you think, will be sufficient for the
present wants ?
Mr. Eddy. I would rather have $200,000.
Representative Carter. I would rather have $200,000 than $50,000
myself, but that is not the question. Will the $50,000 enable you to
do what you want to do ?
Mr. Eddy. Not all we want to do.
Representative Carter. But it will enable you to start the system?
Mr, Eddy. It will enable us to start the system.
Representative Carter. I am not very strongly in favor of tribal
ownership, I am frank to sa}'^, if we can get the ownership in the in-
dividual, because my opinion is that the hope of the Indian is to give
him individual responsibility at the earliest possible moment.
Mr. Eddy. I believe in that generally, Mr. Carter. You see, if the
Indians keep their herds down upon their small ranches, caring for
them in the winter at home, there is so little pasturage about the
home acreage that the cattle are likely to die there through a short-
age of forage, and once being started on hay, if there is not enough in
1776 TONGUE EIVER EESERVATION.
that small place it will go hard with them. Tribally we could put
stacks all about the reservation and care for them, we think, better.
Eepresentative Carter. What reservation is this ?
Mr. Eddy. This is Tongue Eiver — the Northern Cheyenne In-
dians— in Montana, Rosebud County.
Representative Carter. How long do you have to feed there?
>.fr. Eddy. We feed probably three months — January, Febraury,
and March.
Representative Carter. Can you get along with that little feed ?
Mr. Eddy. Yes ; we do not have so much snow there.
Representative Carter. The cattle will go through on the range,
on grazing for eight months, will they ?
Mr. Eddy. They really have always gone for 12 months. They
have never been winter fed.
Representative Carter. Under what act were these 20-acre allot-
ments that you speak of set aside?
Mr. Eddy. No act; just an arbitrary arrangement.
Representative Carter. Then there are no arrangements made ?
Mr. Eddy. Not definitely.
Representative Carter. How were the homes placed on them?
Mr. Eddy. By the Indians themselves.
Representative Carter. In case of death of one of the occupants of
one of these allotments, how do vou arrange about the descent of
that?
Mr. Eddy. That is determined by the good nature that prevails
among those people, and their willingTiess to allow the next oldest
supporter in the family to take the tentative right. There is no
legal status to the proposition.
Senator Lane. Now, you were talking about putting those Indians
into the stock business, putting 30,000 head, if you could, on the
reservation, putting them into that business exclusively. Do you
not think you would be running a terrible risk there ? There might
come a hard winter, like the Blackfeet had in which they lost pretty
nearly all of their cattle, five or six years ago, and you would be in
bad shape there if you got a winter with 40 below, and blizzards, and
your cattle drifting before the storm. You might make a heavy loss
some winter, and might bankrupt those Indians.
Now, is it not a fact, Mr. Eddy, that those Indians are really horse-
men, and they would do well raising, say, a good breed of these
ICnglish coach or percheron horses? They like a horse, and a horse
likes the Indians. You know what they will do with their little
cayuse ; give them a good horse and they will do better. And a horse
will paw through the snow for grass when a steer can not. You
had better look into that carefully. Would they not do better with
horses than with cattle? You have the cattle business to teach them,
whereas they have been horsemen for years.
Mr. Eddy. As I stated, the Indians are more seriously on their
own account in the horse business.
Senator Lane. That is their natural inclination? 4
Mr. Eddy. Their natural bent. 1
Senator Lane. Would it not be a little safer for them, and better,
perhaps, to take that into consideration? For that thing which a
man loves he will do well, and that which he has not so much interest !
in he will not always succeed with. ^
TONGUE EIYER EESEEVATION. 1777
Mr. Eddy. As evidence of the interest I have taken in that I mi^ht
show you contracts I have secured of outside stockmen to put^in
horses and mares and get his pay in colts from the Indians
Senator Lane. How does it work?
lAIr. Eddy. Wonderfully well. I asked Mr. Linnen (,ne mornino-
to go out with me to inspect mares and the proposition I had up
because I realized it would be looked upon as a grafting proposition!
and 1 invited his opinion as to whether or not it was a safe thin^r and
I am glad to say that he looked upon it as a good proposition^'
Senator Lane. I will say I would not put up much money to stake
you to put those Indians into the cattle business, but I would not be
afraid to back those Indians in a horse proposition.
Mr. Eddy. That is very interesting. Senator, but you know two
years ago— three winters ago we had the worst winter in 40 years
and although the losses were as heavy as you said they would be
outside the reserve, inside— because the conditions are so^ different—
although we did lose considerable, and I could have made a better
showing had we not had that hard winter, we did not lose to any
such degree as one would expect.
Senator Lane. What was the percentage of loss among horses, as
compared with cattle, during that hard winter?
Mr. Eddy. Of course, very much less.
Senator Lane. And does "not that tell the story?
Mr. Eddt. No; I do not think so, completely; because we did not
do any feeding that winter.
Senator Lane. You fed neither the horses nor the cattle?
Mr Eddy. Yes ; we did feed the horses. The Indians care for
their horses.
Senator Lane. Won't they always do that?
Mr. Eddy. Yes. You see', under the new plan we plan to feed the
cattle.
Senator Lane. Did you ever feed cattle, and did you ever feed
horses ? Have you been out on a winter day and had' to feed cattle
when it was 30 or 40 below ?
Mr Eddy. Of course, we fed cattle there in the winter before we
had the winter storage.
Senator Lane. It is very hard work, and not the kind of work the
A^ i^^J^ whereas he will keep his horses pretty close around.
And a horse will live out when it is 50 below, and live where a steer
will die. Horses have been known to winter in the Koyukuk coun-
try m Alaska above the Arctic Circle, and get fat.
Mr. Eddy. These pony mares, worth only $15 or $20, will produce
a colt on the first cross that would be worth $50 or $60 at two or
three years old.
Senator Lane. And if you take a better breed of horses
Mr. Eddy. They are worth more.
Senator Lane. Percheron horses will live out that way in Alaska.
I would like to have you take that into consideration.
(At this point Senator Robinson took the chair.)
Senator Robinson (presiding). You say these Indians are all en-
gaged m farming, practically?
Mr. Eddy. They are now.
Senator Robinson. ^Yhat number of them receive rations?
35601— PT 14—14 3
1778 TONGUE EIVER RESERVATION.
Mr. Eddy. Practically all of the Indians.
The Chairman. How does it happen if they are farming that they
all have to have rations?
Mr. Eddy. We feel the money is best expended for rations, Senator,
to subsist them while they are being encouraged to develop as far-
mers and stockmen.
The Chairman. What amount of rations does each Indian draw?
Mr. Eddy. Practically $25 worth per capita per year.
The Chairman. What does that consist of?
Mr. Eddy. Beef, bacon, beans, flour, corn meal
The Chairman. How long have you been in charge of that agency?
I suppose you have already stated.
Mr. Eddy. Seven and one-half years.
The Chairman. AVhat is the amount of rations now issued com-
pared with what was being issued Avhen you took charge?
Mr. Eddy. Wiien I took charge of the agency 800,000 pounds of
beef were authorized each year. Last year we issued but 350,000
pounds and next year we will issue no beef.
The Chairman. Why?
Mr. Eddy. Because we have enlisted the interest of the Indians to
forego the use of all beef, as it costs too much, and to take other
cheaper substitutes while it is necessary and proper to give them
rations at all. \
Senator Lane. "What will those substitutes be? j
Mr. Eddy. It will be flour, bacon, corn meal, coffee, sugar, baking
powder, salt
Senator Lane. What will vou use to take the place of beef?
Mr. Eddy. The flour.
Senator Lane. It will not do it.
Mr. Eddy. Of course, we plan to have butcher shops upon the
reservation, so that with the increasing return from the stock busi-
ness the Indians can buy at the lowest possible rate such meat as
they desire to buy.
Senator Lane. You have tuberculosis among those Indians. I
suppose 100 per cent of them, almost, are tubercular?
Mr. Eddy. Most of them.
Senator Lane. None of them free entirely. If you are going to
substitute flour for beef I warn you, as a physician, to beware and
to get something more nutritious.
Mr. Eddy. The Indian Office, Senator, has taken the position that
we should not issue to exceed 150,000 pounds of beef and that is'
almost negligible. It would not give more than 3 pounds a month,
you see, per capita.
Senator Lane. Even that would be better than doing entirely
away with it and using flour in place of it. If you put in lentils
Mr. Eddy. We have beans, pardon me.
Senator Lane. Or cheese to take the place of it, you will make an
approach.
The Chairman. What number of them were farming when you
went there ?
Mr. Eddy. Very few of them.
The Chairman. What is the total area of land cultivated now by
these Indians?
Mr. Eddy. About 3,000 acres.
TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1779
The Chairman. What is the number of them?
Mr. Eddy. One thousand four hundred.
The Chairman. Wliat crops do they grow ?
Mr. Eddy. Alfalfa, corn, potatoes, barley, garden produce
The Chairman. Are any of them self-supporting?
Mr. Eddy. Some few are self-supporting.
The Chairman. How many and who are they, if the number is not
too great ?
Mr. Eddy. Perhaps 20.
The Chairman. Among that 1,400, only 20 are self-supporting?
Mr. Eddy. I do not think more than 20.
Kepresentative Cari^r. Are any of the 20 being issued rations?
jNIr. Eddy. I believe we are issuing to those 20.
The Chairman. You are issuing rations to those that are self-
supporting? What is the object of that?
Mr. Eddy. There is $2.5 extended to them, and we have felt, as a
matter of policy, there being so few that were self-supporting, that
the good feeling that came generally because of that would make it
well to put them on that basis until we have funds enough to cut them
more generally. They get so little, of course, anyway.
The Chairman. How many forest guards have you there?
Mr. Eddy. Two.
The Chairman. What are their names?
Mr. Eddy. Mr. Postle and Mr, Hendersen.
The Chairman. Is that the number you have had throughout your
administration?
Mr. Eddy. I had one other — Mr. Adams.
The Chairman. What were the circumstances connected with his
employment?
jNIr. Eddy. Mr. Adams is a brother-in-law of the former assistant
commissioner, Mr. Abbott. On the occasion of his visit to the agency
in the fall of 1911 1 asked him if he could name a financial clerk.
He stated that a brother-in-law, Mr, Adams, he thought, would serve,
but that he was a man of out-door experience and that, though he
had been a merchant, he believed that he desired eventually to get
out-of-door employment. He had had experience in the lumber busi-
ness. On his recommendation I w^as pleased to recommend that Mr.
Adams come to us.
The Chairman. Was he in the service ?
Mr. Eddy. He was not.
The Chairman. How did he get into the service?
Mr. Eddy. That is a non-civil-service appointment.
The Chairman. Financial clerk?
Mr. Eddy. Financial clerk.
Senator Lane. Have you a financial clerk there now ?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What was afterwards done with Mr. Adams?
Mr. Eddy. Mr. Adams was later appointed forest guard.
The Chairman. Was he paid a per diem ?
Mr. Eddy. He was paid a per diem of $2 a day.
The Chairman. Were the other forest guards paid that?
Mr. Eddy. They were not.
The Chairman. Why was he paid a per diem when the others were
not?
1780 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION.
Mr. Eddy. At the time of the appointment of Mr. Adams there i
was present upon the reservation a supervising forester and, at the ■
same time, two representatives of the Bureau of Entomology, who j
were investigating the depredations of the mountain-pine beetle. It ;
was considered that the forest value of $900,000 was jeopardized. i
Mr. Dunston stated we should have a man whose particular busi- j
ness it would be to cooperate with the Bureau of Entomology in ,
suppressing this infestation. Mr. Adams having had this lumber I
experience, he was consulted, and it was determined among us that 'j
he would be the proper man. I recommended that he be appointed ,
at a salary that had been previously authorized without any knowl-
edge upon my part for a forest assistant at $1,500, with travel ex-
penses. I recommended that Mr. Adams be appointed, having the
concurrence of the supervising forester, and he was appointed. Ad- 1|
vice came to us by wire asking if it would serve as well to have a '
forest guard appointed at $1,000 and a per diem of $2 a day. As the
matter originated with the Indian Office and the office was aware of
all the circumstances, I stated that it would be proper, and he was
duly appointed by the office to fill that position upon that under-
standing.
The Chairman. You say he had a field man, and had had some
experience in the lumber business? How long did he serve as finan-
cial clerk?
Mr. Eddy. About four months.
The Chairman. Why was he transferred from that position to thei
position of forest guard?
Mr. Eddy. Because of the desire upon the part of the Forestry!
Division to have upon the reservation a man to cooperate with thei
Bureau of Entomology.
The Chairman. What was the character of his services as financial i
clerk? Were they satisfactory?
Mr. Eddy. He served fairly well, but I recognized he would make,
a better outside man than inside man. ■
The Chairman. Why? *
Mr. Eddy. There is so much detail and regulation in the Indian
Service that I find a man from the outside is not as well adapted to
that as a man that is trained.
The Chairman. You knew that when you recommended that hei
be employed?
Mr. Eddy. Not altogether.
The Chairman. You knew that he was an outdoor man and had
bad experience as financial clerk?
Mr. Eddy. Not as financial clerk ; but I knew he had been in the i
banking business and in the mercantile business, according to his
brother-in-law.
The Chairman. What did he do as forest guard ?
Mr. Eddy. He cooperated with the Bureau of Entomology in sup- :
pressing this infestation.
The Chairman. Well, what did he do?
Mr. Eddy. He traveled about the range, inspecting the work of the i
men who were peeling some 10,000 trees — one of the measures that is
adopted by the bureau in this control work — and he assisted in the
arrangement of the lumber piles, we having had a contract to saw
up some 5,000 feet of lumber. Mr. Adams supervised the burning of
TONGUE EtVER EESERVATION. 1781
the slabs at the mill — one of the provisions of this control work, that
the insects in the slabs might be burned.
The Chairman. How long did he continue in that service, in the
suppression of the insects?
Mr. Eddy. Throughout his time.
The Chairman. How long?
Mr. Eddy. From March, I believe, until the 1st of February fol-
lowing.
Senator Lane. I would like to ask you there, what is the supervi-
sion that is necessary to take care of a pile of burning slabs?
Mr. Eddy. Why, the slabs, of course, were thrown off this runway
close to the mill. That is, of course, a dangerous proposition at
best, at any time, close to a mill, and fire protection is afforded by
supervision.
Senator Lane. Was that all? Just fire protection, to keep the
mill from catching fire ?
Mr. Eddy. Not exclusively; but to see, of course, that they were
all burned, and that the slabs were run into the pile and not taken
out and put upon other piles of slabs that might come from trees
that might not be infested.
Senator Lane. Did you separate them?
Mr. Eddy. They were separated, of course.
Senator Lane. What did you do with those that were not infested?
Mr. Eddy. They were burned, more or less, or carted off.
Senator Lane. They were all burned?
Mr. Eddy. No.
Senator Lane. What did you do with those that were not burned?
Mr. Eddy. Some carted to the agency for wood.
Senator Lane. Were you ever around sawmills much ?
Mr. Eddy. Not much. We have had three there.
Senator Lane. You have seen slab piles burning?
Mr. Eddy. Yes ; but not in any great western way.
Senator Lane. It does not take much supervision to keep track of
a pile of slabs, does it? They do not have a superintendent for it?
Mr. Eddy. Of course, that was an incident of his work.
Senator Lane. That was rather a queer kind of job.
Mr. Eddy. That is as I understand it.
The Chairman. Do the forest guards all live there at the agency?
Mr. Eddy. Yes.
The Chairman, What part of the time do they spend in the field,
and what area of land do they watch over?
Mr. Eddy. The forest guards, while they have been there, have
been employed as helpers at the mills, being paid additional.
They have also assisted in such work as assisting the Indians in
their farming, etc.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact then, they do not stay out in
the forest and run the lines and look after the forest ?
Mr. Eddy. We have so many line riders that do the same sort of
work.
The Chairman. How many of them have you?
Mr. Eddy. About eight.
The Chairman. Why do you call these men forest guards?
Mr. Eddy. That is the designation, of course, that employees paid
from that have been run under.
1782 TONGUE EIVER RESERVATION.
The Chairman. Do you understand that throughout the service
forest guards perform similar services to those which are performed
by forest guards at your agency?
Mr. Eddy. I do not know the general practice, Senator.
The Chairman. Has it been true ever since you have been at that
agency that they Avorked about the mill there?
Mr. Eddy. They have had general service — performed general
service.
The Chairman. Ever since you have been there ?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir; including, of course, particularly mill service
whenever there was mill service to perform.
The Chairman. Did jon ever knoAv of a forest guard other than
Mr. Adams receiving a per diem?
Mr. Eddy. I did not.
The Chairman. Pie was afterwards transferred to Shoshone,
Wash.?
Mr. Eddy. To Shoshone, Wash.
The Chairman. Do you know why that Avas?
Mr. Eddy. There were no school facilities at Lame Deer, and Mr.
Adams had three children of school age. The work in the timber
was through at Lame Deer, the control work on this insect infesta-
tion Avas through, and it Avas not desirable to hold him longer there.
Senator Lane. Are you free of that beetle now ?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir; that was a very successful campaign. Dr.
Hoplrins says it was the most successful of any experiment he has
known in the country.
The Chairman. Noav, it appears from the records that you Avere
absent during the period from April 1, 1912. to September 30, 1913;
about 242 days absent from the reservation — being 20 days at Crow,
32 days at the training school at Busby, and 190 days otherAvise
absent.
How did it happen you Avere gone so much ?
Mr. Eddy. Might I refer to a record I have here?
The Chairman. Yes; if you can not state it from memory.
Mr. Eddy. I can not [producing memoranda].
For the fiscal year 1913, or beginning with the first quarter, from
August 23 to August 25, purchasing stallions for Indians in Sheri-
dan, Wyo., under authority 85168, 1912.
From July 6, 1912, to 19th, consulting with and escorting liquor
officer to Sheridan, Wyo.
Senator Lane. Hoav many stallions did you purchase?
Mr. Eddt. On that occasion, in the contracts had with Mr. Selway,
copies of which are here, I have purchased at different times different
numbers. I do not just recall how many.
Senator Lane. Did you open bids for them ?
Mr. Eddy. No; in that case this Avas a private arrangement
whereby a wealthy stockman going out of the horse business was
willing, under the terms of the contract, to afford the Indians the
opportunity of getting the studs. Perhaps you Avould like to read
that peculiar contract [referring to memoranda.]
Consulting Avith and escorting liquor officer to Sheridan, Wyo.,
authority 85186, 1912.
August 30 to September 5, accompanying cattle shipment to mar-
ket at Chicago. I might state I have made it an invariable rule to
TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1783
accompany the cattle to Chicago. There are so many brands it is
highly desirable that each individual brand be clearly designated so
that the Indians will get their money. Authority 81036, 1912.
August 20 to 21, consulting with the Assistant Commissioner at
Crow Agency, authority 85168, 1912. That was a visit that the com-
missioner made to Crow Agency.
August 28 and 29, consulting relative to said transaction on behalf
of the Northern Cheyenne Indians. Authority 85168, 1912.
September 20 to 22, to arrange for the printing of the programs
for the Northern Cheyenne Industrial Fair. Authority 85168, 1912.
Kepresentative Cari-er. How long was that ?
Mr. Eddy. Tavo days. Sheridan is 80 miles away.
Representative Carter. How did you go up there?
Mr. Eddy. By automobile. The Government car, you know. I
might state that on the occasion of every visit I have made away
from the agency on a purpose like that I have made it mv business.
to acquamt myself with the possibilities of purchasing stock. We are
so far inland that it is only by getting out and mixing with the local
interests that we are able to do business in a large way for those
Indians [referring to memoranda].
October 4 to November 1. October trip to Pumpkin Creek to select
mares, and trips to Miles City and Butte in connection with insane
Indians m the Warm Springs Asylum. Authority 85168, 1912.
November 23 to December 19, conferring with the Acting Com-
missioner in the interests of the Northern Cheyennes, and a confer-
ence with Dr. George Bird Grinnell at New York, concerning legisla-
tion affecting the Northern Cheyenne Indians. Authority 124409
and authority 9553, 1913. '
Representative Carter. How long was that?
Mr. Eddy. From November 23 to December 19.
Representative Carter. Twenty-six days?
Mr. Eddy. Twenty-six days.
The Chairman. Did you go to Omaha and to Lincoln during any
of those absences from the reservation ?
Mr. Eddf. On the occasion of my return to the reservation.
The Chairman. Were you making any of these trips in the interest
of any candidate for Commissioner of Indian Affairs?
Mr. Eddy. Not at all. sir.
The Chairman. Did you take any active interest in working up
a sentiment for any candidate for commissioner ?
Mr. Eddy. In a small way, I had hoped to receive recognition on
personal account^a small candidacy for the position of assistant
commissioner.
The Chairman. Was that the object of some of your visits, to pro-
mote your own cadidacy for assistant commissioner ?
Mr. Eddy. In no way. The file of indorsements lodged with the
Secretary, I think, consists of six letters from private individuals.
The Chairman. I asked you if during the occasion of this ab-
sence of 223 days
Mr. Eddy. For a year and a half.
The Chairman. Two hundred and forty-two days — the period
which I indicated a while ago — during that time were you advocating
any candidate for commissioner?
Mr. Eddy. Not as a special object of any trip.
1784 TONGUE RIVEE EESERVATION.
The Chairman. Were you advocating a candidate for commis-
sioner? I did not ask anything about a special object; I asked you
if you were on those trips advocating a candidate for commissioner.
Mr. Eddy. I was favorable to the retention of the then acting
commissioner.
The Chairman. I did not ask you whom you were favorable to; I
asked you if you were advocating a candidate.
The charge has been made that a part of your absence from your
reservation for this long period was occasioned by the fact that the
Assistant Commissioner of Indian Affairs had called you to Wash-
ington, and sent or permitted you to go to divers places, including
New York, Omaha, and Lincoln, with the implied understanding
that while you were there transacting other business, perhaps, you
were attempting also to work up a sentiment for him.
While you were in New York seeing Dr. Grinnell did you discuss
with him, or did the question arise of the propriety of Mr. Abbott
being appointed Commissioner of Indian Affairs?
Mr. Eddy. It is probable that I did. Senator.
The Chairman. How long did you remain in New York?
Mr. Eddy. I think the record will show possibly three days.
The Chairman. You were gone from your reservation 26 days
on that trip. How did it happen that a man in New York — Dr.
Grinnell — was so important in legislation or affairs relating to the
Northern Cheyenne Indians? What did he have to do with the
Northern Cheyenne Indians?
Mr. Eddy. JDr. Grinnell has been a constant worker in behalf of
the Northern Cheyenne Indians for 23 years. He has appeared here
consistently at his own expense, advocating legislation in behalf of
these Indians for 16 years.
The Chairman. What legislation were you discussing?
Mr. Eddy. At that time legislation particularly affecting a reim-
bursable item of $100,000 for the purchase of cattle, and also affect-
ing a $48,000 item that had been in the bill for two years, and,
moreover, to take up with him a plan we had been discussing for
many years to raise 4 per cent philanthropic capital in New York
in tlie event Congress did not see fit to make appropriation.
The Chairman. Had he been directly connected with the admin-
istration of the affairs of these Indians at any time ?
Mr. Eddy. He has served as commissioner. I think, for several
Presidents
The Chairman. On the board of commissioners?
Mr. Eddy. No, sir; as private commissioner at times on several
important commissions affecting the Indians in your State, Mr.
Burke, and the Blackfeet
The Chairman. I do not know what you mean as private com-
missioner.
Mr. Eddy. He has been designated to do private work for Presi-
dent Cleveland, for instance, in the settlement of matters of dispute
on some of the reservations. He has been called into consultation by
Mr. Eoosevelt. as I understand it, for some purpose.
The Chairman. And you went to New York to talk to him about
a reimbursable appropriation Congress should nuike to buy stock for
these Indians?
TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1785
Mr. Eddy. Not only this time, Senator, but four years ago also
under Mr. Leupp's administration or Mr. Valentine's.
The Chairman. You made another trip, then?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir ; that entered into my accounts in the same way.
The Chairman. How many visits did you make to Omaha and to
Lincoln during this period I have mentioned ?
Mr, Eddy. One, as I recall, coming and going on the occasion of
my visit to and from Washington.
The Chairman. Did you discuss the appointment of a commis-
sioner or assistant commissioner on those trips ?
Mr. Eddy. I believe I did, sir.
The Chairman. Did you on your other trips that you made during
that period, or at or near the time a commissioner was to be ap-
pointed, discuss the matter wherever you went?
Mr. Eddy. I did discuss it, as a matter of interest, but not as a
matter of particular interest.
The Chairman. You were in the civil service ?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you have authority from Assistant Commis-
sioner Abbott to present his claims for appointment as commissioner?
Mr. Eddy. No, sir. All acts were upon my own initiative, Senator.
The Chairman. Did you inform him that you were doing that?
Mr. Eddy. He was aware of it.
The Chairman. Did you communicate it to him by letter, or tele-
gram, or communicate with him regarding the matter while you were
engaged in it?
Mr. Eddy. I may have done it — not by telegram; possibly as an
incident of correspondence.
The Chairman. What do you mean by " as an incident of corre-
spondence " ?
Mr. Eddy. Why, I would advert to that as one item of interest in
correspondence, possibly, Senator.
The Chairman. While you were seeking the promotion of Mr.
Abbott he was also seeking your promotion, was he not?
Mr, Eddy. No, sir: absolutely not.
The Chairman. Did you know that he had sought to advance you
to the position of supervisor of the work of superintendents in the
reservations of the Northwest?
Mr. Eddy. I knew that Mr. Leupp had in mind to appoint me an
inspector, and knew that Mr. Valentine had in mind to appoint me
supervisor, and knew that Mr. Abbott had in mind to appoint me.
The Chairman. Do you know how it happened that, if all theso
'Commissioners had it in mind, they did not do it ?
Mr. Eddy. I think it was because
The Chairman. Did you know that May 24, 1913, Mr. Abbott
entered a memorandum in connection with your name : ''A valuable
mrsn to supervise the work of superintendents in the reservations of
the Northwest " ?
Mr. Eddy. I did not know anything about that as a memorandum.
The Chairman. Did you expect promotion in the event he became
commissioner ?
Mr. Eddy. I hoped for it in any event.
1786 TONGUE KIVER EESERVATION.
The Chairman. What position were you seeking? I believe you
said you were seeking the appointment as assistant commissioner,
but not seriously.
Mr. Eddy. Seriously, but not aggressively.
The Chairman. Who has the selection of the assistant commis-
sioner? The commissioner himself, has he not?
Mr. Eddy. No, sir ; the Secretary of the Interior.
The Chairman. But. as a matter of fact, it is done at the sugges-
tion of the commissioner, is it not ?
Mr. Eddy. Really, I do not know.
Representative Burke. He is appointed by the President.
The Chairman. But I presume the suggestion is mads by the
commissioner.
Mr. Eddy. I stated I would be glad to be a right-hand man to tlie
commissioner.
The Chairman. If Mr. Abbott had been appointed commissioner,
you hoped to be assistant commissioner?
'Mr. Eddy. Not in that way. If anybody were appointed I would
be very happy to serve as assistant commissioner.
The Chairman. You wanted to be assistant commissioner any-
way? You stated you did not think it would promote your chances
to be assistant commissioner if Mr. Abbott were appointed commis-
sioner?
Mr. Eddy. I do not believe it woukl have seriously alfected my
chances — or, rather, materially affected my chances.
I think, perhaps, if it is proper to state it, since the charge of
])olitical activity is adverted to, that I have no political status. I
have never voted. I lived in the District of Columbia here for eight
years after becoming of age. and then on Federal territory, and
have never in anyway affiliated by party.
The Chairman. When was that blanket authority given you to
expend the proceeds of the individual Indians for such purposes as
you deemed in the best interest of the Indians ?
Mr. Eddy. That was given about three years ago, after a direct
argument with Mr. Adams, the then Assistant Secretary of the In-
tel i or. He had a fast rule that would exclude such an authority as
I asked; but I took it that the position of the Indians v/as different
at Tongue River, as they are individual Indian moneys nnd come
entirely from earnings the result of cattle sales. Taking that po.^i-
tion, the Secretar.y agreed, and practically directly dictated this let-
ter giving a different authority from the one ordinarily in force.
The Chairman. Now, that is unusual, is it not, Mr. Eddy?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, --ir.
The Chairman. Did you ever know of another superintendent
being given that broad discretion?
Mr. EuDY. I do not know of another one being interested to go
directly to the Secretary.
The Chairman. Did you ever know of another one having it, if
he was?
Mr. Eddy. I do not; no. I discussed that. hoAvever, with the
Indian Office officials, and asked if it would be proper to grant that.
They said they did not believe it would be. I asked then if there
was objection if I would take it directly to the Secretary, and they
TONGUE EIVER RESERVATION. 1787
said no, they would be glad to get it to his attention. AYith those
assurances I went to him.
The Chairman. Now, every ration day you pay out about $8,000,
do you not?
Mr. Eddy. We do; yes.
The Chairman. How are 3- our checks made payable?
Mr. Eddy. To the Indians.
The Chairman. In all instances?
Mr. Eddy. In practically all instances.
The Chairman. Are you in the habit of signing check books in
advance, and leaving the rest to the clerks?
Mr. Eddy. I have done that to some extent.
The Chairman. But, as matter of fact, did you not always sign
two check books in advance and leave them to the clerks to fill out ?
Mr. Eddy. The practice has been on issue days, the days the Indians
come in for rations, to sign the approval line on the checks so that
the clerks may be free to send out the checks.
The Chairman. You sign those checks in advance, and then the
bills are brought in afterwards, and the bill is O. K'd b}^ the clerks?
Mr. Eddy. I do not understand what you mean by the bills, Senator.
The Chairman. The bills which you pay for the Indians. The
bills which you pay under this broad authority here in making pur-
chases for the Indians.
Mr. Eddy. We pay very few bills. I do not know of a dozen cases
of bills being paid.
The Chairman. Do not the Indians bring in all kinds of bills from
the stores?
Mr. Eddy. I do not know of a dozen being brought in in two years.
Senator Lane. Would you know whether they were or not ?
Mr. Eddy. I believe I would, Senator. There would be a few
brought in at times from a local trader, but so few as to appear
negligible. The idea in giving the Indians a liberal allowance is that
they may be free to go and spend it at will.
The Chairman. I believe you have been asked about the stock on
the reservation and the manner of handling that?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, Senator.
The Chairman. How many checks are you in the habit of signing
in blank, and who is authorized to fill out those checks ?
Mr. Eddy. Both clerks; Mr. Cassidy handles the individual In-
dian moneys and Mr. Green the regular agency receipt roll. I have
made it a practice to sign no checks in advance, practically speaking,
for Mr. Green on salary and agency account, but Mr. Cassidv. who is
an experienced clerk and who has especially requested that I sign
these checks for him. and whom I have confidence in — I have, to
facilitate liis work, signed a number of checlis for him. I think that
is a common practice.
Senator Lane. How much are those for, usually ?
Mr. Eddy. Twenty-five or fifty dollars.
Senator Lane. Is that stated " not over $25 " before you sign it?
Mr. Eddy. You see. the Indian actually signs the check. The sign-
ing that the Senator refers to is a countersignature. The Indian him-
self draws his own check against his account.
The Chairman. You countersign a check in advance ?
1788 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION.
Mr. Eddy. I have; a few.
The Chairman. And the Indian comes in in your absence and
signs it and gets his money? How in the world can you know in
advance what account that check is filled out for in advance?
Mr. Eddy. I would not know in advance.
The Chairman. So if the clerk and the Indian should conclude to
fill it out for any sum within the amount which the Indian had, it
would be paid and you would have no check on it except the stub ?
Mr. Eddy. That has been the case. Fortunately it has resulted
in no loss to the Indians.
The Chairman. You would not know whether the Indian himself
had signed the check, would you? The object of the regulations re-
quiring you to countersign the check is to validate the Indian's sig-
nature and the purpose for which it is drawn. Now, if you counter-
sign in advance and leave it to some one else, how can you safeguard
the right of the Indian and keep some one else from signing the
Indian's name?
Mr. Eddy. Of course, the thing we depend upon is the clerk whom
the civil service sends to us, and we have depended upon him in the
past, as I say, with no loss to the Indians in any case.
The Chairman. How do you know ?
Mr. Eddy. None have ever been reported.
The Chairman. You would know if they were reported, but you
would not know unless they were?
Mr. Eddy. I never knew an Indian that ever lost a cent who did
not make it a matter of continued agitation.
The Chairman. If he knew it. How many farmers have you?
Mr. Eddy. Five.
The Chairman. And two forest guards?
Mr. Eddy. Two forest guards.
The Chairman. What do those farmers do? Have you been over
that?
Representative Burke. Yes ; Senator Lane went over it quite fully.
The Chairman. Has the department criticized your expenditures
there?
Mr. Eddy. Somewhat, Senator. But in what particular way do
you mean? Generally, do you mean?
The Chairman. For making expenditures without authority, for
instance.
Mr. Eddy. We have sometimes made unauthorized expenditures
where we were assured of having funds to our credit that would not
revert to the Treasury and remain there.
The Chairman. What is the idea in doing that?
Mr. Eddy. That has been an exigency to facilitate work.
The Chairman. How would that arise?
Mr. Eddy. It would arise, for instance, in orders we got in one case
to expend $300 for stock-protection work, incident to a belief that
permittees were driving cattle off the reservation. In order to make
that supervision effective we found we would need more, and we
hired it.
The Chairman. Your automobile there was destroyed by fire last
year?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, Senator.
The Chairman. How did that occur?
TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1789
Mr. Eddy. We had an Indian who had become very unruly — I
should say dangerous — and a number of the employees were with
me in consultation, and we decided it would be advisable to go down
and consult with the county attorney that night as to ways and means
of handling this Indian. I asked the chauffeur to prepare the car,
which he went to do — that is, the laborer there — and while we Avere
in consultation at the doctor's office the car caught fire, as he stated,
from a lantern some 8 or 10 feet outside of the building; the theory
being, as it was developed by an inspector, that the gasoline, being
heavy and low, floated out to the lantern and burned up the car.
The Chairman. Did you keep the gasoline there Avith the car, and
in that building?
Mr. Eddy. The gasoline. Senator, Avas in a building about 8 feet
from the car. We took the Indian to jail the next day, in another
car, and he served for a number of months.
The Chairman. Do you know hoAV the employees at the agency and
the Indians on the reservation regard your capacity as superin-
tendent ? Do you know hoAV they feel toward you ?
Mr. Eddy. I know that every delegation of Indians that has been
here for the last 8 years has seen fit to speak approvingly.
The Chairman. I did not ask anything about delegations that were
sent here by the reservation. I asked about the Indians on the reser-
vation, and the employees.
I will just state for your information that delegations who have
come to Washington from the reservations most always represent, as
you must know, the views of the agency. What I am anxious to
know is whether you are informed of the fact that there has been
general complaint by the Indians that you are incapable as superin-
tendent ?
Mr. Eddy. Of course, I am not aware of that. I have always felt
that the response the Indians have given to efforts that we have un-
dertaken in their behalf has been so hearty as to assure me they must
have coiifidence in my management.
The Chairman. Take, for instance, the case of those five farmers.
Are their services satisfactory to you in promoting farming among
the Indians?
Mr. Eddy. There is, of course, now a new agricultural activity
upon the resevation.
The Chairman. Since when?
Mr. Eddy. This spring. Of course, last year there was a very
marked advance over previous years.
The Chairman. What was the total value of crops, last year, pro-
duced on the reservation?
Mr. Eddy. Perhaps $20,000.
The Chairman. How does that compare Avith the amount pro-
duced the year before you went there, if you know ?
Mr. Eddy. There was practically nothing produced the year before
I Avent there.
The Chairman. There Avas no farming at all ?
Mr. Eddy. Practically no farming at all. It Avas generally sup-
posed that no farming could be done in that countrj^ It was not
until three years ago that it was ever assumed that farming could be
done in that country.
1790 TONGUE EIVER RESERVATION.
The Chairman. Three thousand acres in cultivation on that reser-
vation, five expert farmers in charge — — -
Mr. Eddy. Two expert farmers.
The Chairman. Five farmers ; you designate 2 of them as experts,
and the other three as nonexperts — five farmers on the 3,000 acres,
produced $20,000 worth of crops last year, according to your esti-
mate?
Mr. Eddy. I should judge.
The Chairman. That is an average of a little over $6 an acre.
Mr. Eddy. These people, of course, have been stock-growing people,
and have made their success in stock.
The Chairman. By the way, is that good farming land?
Mr. Eddy. We believe it is, Senator.
The Chairman. Don't you know whether it is? You have been
there seven and a half years.
Mr. Eddy. It is.
The Chairman. Wlien did you discover that it was good farming
land?
Mr. Eddy. I think I discovered it the first year.
The Chairman. Why did you say a moment ago that you now
believe it is?
Mr. Eddy. I believe it is, and I stated further that it is.
The Chairman. Good farming land ought to produce more than
six and a third dollars an acre.
Mr. Eddy. It would, of course, if whites were doing the farming,
but where backward, non-English speaking Indians are concerned
they are making a remarkable comparative showing.
The Chairman. How many line riders did you say ?
Mr. Eddy. Eight.
The Cpi AIRMAN. What do you pay them?
Mr. Eddy. They are paid $720 per annum.
The Chairman. What do they do?
Mr. Eddy. They ride the lines and act as far as may be as forest
patrols. They join in the round-ups, keep the fence up, and act as
general stockmen under the superintendence of Mr. Ferris there, the
stockman on the reservation.
The Chairman. What was the total increase of stock on the reser-
vation, if you know ?
Mr. Eddy. I think we branded 1,500 calves. We probably had
as many colts. We Avould have had many more had not the worst
winter in 40 years preceded three winters ago, which did considerable
damage among the she stock on the reservation.
The Chairman. Did the stock on the reservation increase more
year before last than last year ?
Mr. Eddy. It did.
The Chairman. What was the increase for that year ?
Mr. Eddy. Just before the big winter freeze we had 2,300 calves.
Then, as I say, the worst winter in 40 years came and struck in
hard on the calves and the she stock, very materially putting us back.
Outside of the reservation that year in many herds 50 or 60 per cent
were lost, and in some up to 90 per cent, so it is obvious that with
all that shock that herd will have to start again to maintain its
aforetime ratio of progress.
TONGUE EIVEE RESERVATION. 1791
The Chairman. Have you explained the facilities provided on the
reservation for caring for stock in severe winter?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What would you say was the increase in value
of the stock on the reservation last year ?
Mr. Eddy. We sold $48,000 worth last year.
The Chairman. Of course, that was not all increase ?
Mr. Eddy. It would probablv be $15 on 6,000 head— $80,000 or
$90,000.
Eepresentative Burke. I would like to ask a few questions. How
old are you, Mr. Eddy ?
Mr. Eddy. Thirty-eight, Mr. Burke.
Representative Burke. Where were you educated?
Mr. Eddy. In the Boston grammar and high schools, and at the
Massachusetts Agricultural College at Amherst.
Representative Burke. Under what circumstances and when did
you enter the Indian Service?
Mr. Eddy. I had been employed here in Washington as landscape
gardener at the Zoological Park for eight years. I was associated
with Robert Lincoln O'Brien, the editor of the Boston Herald, and
I lived with him here. He was a partner of the former commis-
sioner, Mr. Leupp, I believe, in the newspaper business, and at the
instance of Mr. Leupp, as I have the information, I was brought
to his attention by Mr. O'Brien and transferred from the Smith-
sonian Institution.
Representative Burke. Were you then in the classified service?
Mr. Eddy. I was in the classified service.
Representative Burke. In what capacity did you begin your
service in the Indian Bureau?
Mr. Eddy. As clerk here in the Washington office for about four
months.
Representative Burke. What was your next employment?
Mr. Eddy, I went then to assist in the opening of bids at St. Louis,
about two months. Then I went to the southwest w4th the general
supervisor of the reservations, and surveyed with him and traveled
with him about the reservations of the southwest.
Representative Burke. Then what did you do?
Mr. Eddy. I spent five months as clerk at the Uintah Agency in
Utah.
Representative Burke. Then w^hat ?
Mr. Eddy. Clerk at Tongue River for six months, and the past
seven and a half years as agent.
Representative Burke. Who made you superintendent?
Mr. Eddy. Mr. Leupp, at $720.
Representative Burke. What salary do you now receive?
Mr. Eddy. $1,900. I have had six promotions, I believe, in that
time.
Representative Burke, When did you come to Washington on this
occasion ?
Mr. Eddy. On this occasion, over two weeks ago.
Representative Burke, Under what circumstances did you come
here?
Mr. Eddy. Peremptory wire to come immediately to Washington.
Representative Burke. From whom? . ;
1792 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION.
Mr. Eddy. From the present Commissioner of Indian Affairs.
Eepresentative Burke. Were you informed upon your arrival here
what you were brought here for?
Mr. Eddy. No; I was not informed. But Monday morning Mr.
Linnen, the inspector, took me to one side, and he held a preliminary
examination, taking up
Eepresentative Burke. An examination of what kind?
Mr. Eddy. There were certain charges, in which, by implication,
I was involved, affecting the assistant commissioner, Mr. Abbott.
They were first brought to my attention by Mr. Linnen, and a num-
ber of anonymous letters that charged me with this, that, and the
other
Representative Burke. What were you charged with?
Mr. Eddy. A rather indefinite line of inquiry, Mr. Burke; among
other things, telling the Indians that they could kill white men's cat-
tle on the reservation, but they must not kill Indian cattle, and with
incompetency.
Representative Burke. In what form were those charges pre-
ferred ?
Mr. Eddy. They were not preferred. They were merely questions
asked me. Mr. Linnen would state. You are charged with this, that,
and the other, and I would aswer the charge.
Representative Burke. You said something about favoring Mr.
Abbott for commissioner, I believe. What capacity was he acting
in at the time you refer to? What position did he hold in the Indian
Office at that time ?
Mr. Eddy. He was assistant commissioner.
Representative Burke. When was this?
Mr. Eddy. In February of 1913.
Representative Burke. That was last year ?
Mr. Eddy. Last year.
Representative Burke. I believe you have stated that he did not
solicit you to interest yourself in his behalf?
Mr. Eddy. No, sir.
Representative Burke. Did any other aspirant in connection with
the Indian Office solicit your support in any way ?
Mr. Eddy. Well, there were quite a number of candidates, Mr.
Burke. Why, the then law officer, the present Assistant Commis-
sioner of Indian Affairs, invited me to join in behalf of. his can-
didacy.
Representative Burke. For what?
Mr. Eddy. For commissioner.
Representative Burke. In what way ?
Mr. Eddy. Why, to get busy with the superintendents whom I
knew, and to go to Senators, who were specified by name, and to
generally take an active part in the business of making him Com-
missioner of Indian Affairs.
Representative Burke. Who was that person, by name?
Mr. Eddy. Mr. Meritt.
Representative Burke. The present assistant commissioner?
Mr. Eddy. The present assistant commissioner.
Representative Burke. In what way did the matter come up be-
tween you and Mr. Meritt that he asked you to interest yourself in
his candidacy ?
TONGUE EIVtE EESERVATION. 1793
Mr. Eddy. AVhy, on the occasion of a visit to JNIohonk, where I was
invited to make a short address — in which I made open advocacy of
the stocking of the reservation and the use of reimbursable funds —
Mr. Meritt asked me what my politics were, and I stated, as I have
stated here, that I was without political attachment; and he stated
that he planned to run, and invited my cooperation. I was pleased
to accord him the friendly interest that I have and had for him.
Representative Burke. It did not occur to you that there was any-
thing especially reprehensible in some man in the Indian Office hav-
ing the ambition to become commissioner, did it?
]\Ir, Eddy. It seemed to me perfectly proper that everybody should
endeavor to advance himself as he best could.
Representative Burke. I judge from what you have stated here
that you thought that sometime you yourself might hold a position
in the Indian Office of more importance than you now hold ?
Mr. Eddy. I had that hope.
Representative Burke, During your administration as superin-
tendent at the Tongue River Agency have you occasionally had
from time to time visits from inspectors and supervisors from the
Indian Office?
Mr. Eddy. Very numerous.
Representative Burke. Have you ever had any serious complaints
made against your administration, or have you been required to
respond to charges at any time during that period?
Mr. Eddy. Never. As I understand, the comments of visitors have
been complimentary. I have never been called upon to answer
charges, except in the case where one Indian had stated that he had
not got all that was coming to him in a certain lumber transaction,
but the record in the case in response to those charges showed that
the transaction was as it should be. But I have never had any
charges originate from this end.
Representative Burke. Have you any knowledge of any charges
pending at the present time that have not been directly brought
to your notice ?
Sir. Eddy. I was advised by wire the other day that a group of
the employees, taking advantage of the difficulties that have beset us,
were cooperating to make things unhappy for us, and are filing
charges which will be here very shortly.
I may say that just prior to leaving the reservation I talked
with all of these several employees, telling them what to do, and I
was unaware they had signed a round robin — some four — against
my interest. When I got here I found that such a circular had
come into the Indian Office, not through open channels but indirectly,
and now, simply because I am here and they are there, these other
charges are coming. They will be here in a few days.
Representative Burke. When Avere you supposed to return?
Mr. Eddy. At the pleasure of the committee.
Representative Burke. You believe that there are charges going to
be brought to the attention of this commission ?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir ; but I do not know.
Representative Burke. I sav, have you any reason to believe that
there are?
35601— PT 14—14 4
1794 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION.
Mr. Eddy. I have no reason to believe there are, unless what is
presented here to-night would be
The Chairman. I will state that the commission was informed
that Mr. Eddy was in town, and at the suggestion of Senator Lane
the meeting was called.
Representative Carter. What makes you think there are charges?
Mr. Eddy. I got a wire from the chief clerk, and I have discussed
the matter with Mr. Linnen, and he advised me that he had sent a
wire to the chief clerk asking him to have certain testimony sent
here.
Representative Carter. Who advised you?
Mr. Eddy. Mr. Linnen, through the commissioner, I take it.
Representative Carter. What was this wire you say you got from
the chief clerk?
Mr. Eddy. He sent me a wire that was a copy of the wire he said
he sent to the Indian Office, we will say, 15 days ago, in which
wire
Representative Carter. Have you that message there ?
Mr. Eddy. I may have.
(The Avitness here examined certain papers before him, but did not
produce the message referred to.)
Representative Burke. Now, I want to ask one or two questions.
The chairman has suggested that you are charged with having been
active and having traveled about the country promoting the interests
of a man who did aspire to be Commissioner of Indian Affairs.
Now, have you been confronted with a charge of that kind?
Mr. Eddy. No, sir; other than Mr. Linnen — you might perhaps
call that a confrontal.
Representative Burke. Mr. Linnen informed you that there had
been that charge made against you?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. And he, perhaps, interrogated you with
reference to the circumstances?
Mr. Eddy. The implications.
The Chairman. You stated that Mr. Meritt also asked your assist-
ance to help make him commissioner. Did he write you about it ?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Have you a copy of the letter?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Have you a copy of the letters you wrote to and
received from Mr. Abbott concerning the same matter?
Mr. Eddy. I have not.
The Chairman. Where are they ?
Mr. Eddy. They were not.
The Chairman. They were not? You stated awhile ago that
you did discuss it in some letters as an incident to the correspond-
ence. I remember distinctly that statement. Where are those letters?
Mr. Eddy. I may have some.
The Chairman. You have just stated " they Avere not." What do
you mean by that ?
Mr. Eddy. My impression from your question Avas
The Chairman. You have no right to take an impression other
than the question asked. I asked you first Avliere were the letters
you had received from Mr. Abbott, and you stated " they Avere not."
TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION. 1795
Then I reminded you of the fact that you had previously stated that,
as an incident of some of vour correspondence, you had discussed
the matter in some of your letters to Mr. Abbott. Now, I again ask
you, if you know, where are those letters that you discussed the
matter of his candidacy in ?
Mr. Eddy. I am not sure that I hold any such letters. I have none
with me.
The Chairman. You are not sure that you hold them? What
have you done with them ? That is what I am trying to find out.
Mr. Eddy. Why. Senator, I would do with them precisely what I
would do with many letters; I would burn them.
The Chairman. How did you happen to burn Mr. Abbott's letters
and keep Mr. Meritt's letters?
]Mr. Eddy. Just a mere accident. I do not know that I have Mr.
Meritt's letter with me.
The Chairman. You said a while ago you had.
Mr. Eddy. It is in Washington ; it is here.
The Chairman. How do you know the Abbott letters are not in
Washington ?
Mr. Eddy. I do know it is not.
The Chairman. You do know they were not burned?
Mr. Eddy. I do know it is not in Washington.
The Chairman. How do you know that?
Mr. Eddy. I did not bring them.
The Chairman. Do you loiow where they are?
JNIr. Eddy. I do not know. I admitted frankly, don't you know,
that letters bearing upon that proposition had come to me.
The Chairman. Yes; that is what I understood, and then I did
not understand what you meant when you said " they were not."
Mr. Eddy. I meant I did not have specific letters making the can-
didacy a special point. Senator, as w^as the case in this letter which
I do happen to hold.
Representative Burke. Did he not state formerly that adverted to
Mr. Abbott's candidacy in letters he wrote to Mr. Abbott?
The Chairman. He did.
Representative Burke. Now, do I understand you had letters
from Mr. Abbott soliciting your support ?
Mr. Eddy. I had letters that touched upon the candidacy — the
condition of the candidacy — not special letters, but letters that
might mention that in connection with other personal matters. I
had a close personal association with Mr. Abbott.
Representative Burke. Did you ever have any letters from Mr.
Abbott in which he specifically asked you to perform any act pro-
moting the interests of his candidacy?
Mr. Eddy. I believe I did.
The Chairman. What did you do with those letters?
Mr. Eddy. I may have them ; I may have burned them.
Representative Carter. Why did you burn them?
Mr. Eddy. I attached no special importance to them, Mr. Carter.
Representative Carter. How was it you attached enough im-
portance to one man's letter about his candidacy to save that and not
enough importance ro another man's letter about his candidacy to
save that, when the other man, j^ou admit, you were friendly to?
1796 TONGUE EIVER RESERVATION.
Mr. Eddy. The point is this, you see: These charges that by im-
plication involve my name were published in January, and as the
charges were made by a person who had no knowledge on his own
part
Representative Carter. Who made them?
Mr. Eddy. Mr. Johnson, I believe.
Representative Carter. Who is Mr. Johnson?
Mr. Eddy. Mr. Johnson w\as formerly special liquor officer in the
Indian Bureau, and it occurred to me that somebody must be fur-
nishing him with information, since he had never been to my agency
and would know nothing about forest guards or house building or
any other activity upon my part, because I had been directly threat-
ened that if I did not get busy in behalf of the candidacy of Mr.
Meritt I would be hamstrung when he was in a position to do busi-
ness. I did sail through my files to see if there was anything there
that would in any way show that the activities I was making on
behalf of one man were of like sort as those I was asked to make on
behalf of another.
The Chairman. Who was it made that threat?
Mr. Eddy. Mr. Meritt stopped me on the street here one day. He
said, "Eddy, you're in wrong; you're with a loser. I would like to
see you get right."
The Chairman. When was that?
Mr. Eddy. During the time I was here in Washington.
The Chairman. I know ; but when ?
Mr. Eddy. Last year.
The Chairman. About when last year ?
Mr. Eddy. We will say in February of last year.
The Oiairman. We will not say it unless it was.
Mr. Eddy. It was.
The Chairman. It was in February? How many times were you
here last year?
Mr. Eddy. Twice that I recall.
The Chairman. When did you burn the Abbott letters?
Mr. Eddy. At various times when I was cleaning my files.
The Chairman. Can you give us the dates?
Mr. Eddy. I really can not. Senator. I imagined that I burned
many of them upon receipt. I do not mean by " many " that many
of them contained matter affecting his candidacy, but I did have a
running correspondence with Mr. Abbott upon matters affecting the
Indian Service.
Senator Lane. Would you burn those that pertained to the Indian
Service?
Mr. Eddy. They were personal letters; they were not official.
Senator Lane. Letters that came to you by frank ?
Mr. Eddy. By stamp.
Senator Lane. And you replied to them with a stamp?
Mr. Eddy. By stamp.
The Chairman. Did they relate to your duties on your work?
Mr. Eddy. They were friendly exchanges between friends.
The Chairman. You were carrying on a social correspondence?
Mr. Eddy. A social correspondence.
The Chairman. You did not destroy any of the correspondence
that related to anything you were doing or engaged in?
TONGUE KIVER RESEEVATION. 1797
Mr. Eddy. None of the official correspondence.
The Chairman. What do you mean by ''official correspondence"?
Mr. Eddy. Regular official correspondence, coming to me under
f 1 ank.
The Chairman. You think that a letter that is not franked is not
official correspondence if it relates to matters affecting your public
duties ?
Mr. Eddy. I have taken the position that letters that were sent to
me personally by officials were not official letters.
The Chairman. How many personal letters did you receive from
Mr. Abbott during the time he was candidate for commissioner?
Mr. Eddy. During the time Mr. Abbott was in office I may have
received 50 personal letters from him.
The Chairman. You destroyed all of them, did you?
Mr. Eddy. I destroyed many of them.
Tlie Chairman. Why did you not destroy them all ?
Mv. Eddy. No reason for not destroying them all.
The Chairman. What reason was there for destroying any?
Mr. Eddy. No reason for destroying any.
The Chairman. You said in answer to a question by Mr. Burke
that the inspectors had been in the habit of visiting your agency
frequently. How often have they come there ?
Mr. Eddy. There have been inspectors every year. Of course it is
a remote point.
The Chairman. Once a year?
Mr. Eddy. Last year seven times.
Tlie Chairman. What inspectors were there last year?
Mr. Eddy. Mr. Kneale, Mr. Jenkins, Mr. Goodall, Mr. Reed, Mr.
Hanna, Mrs. Newton, Mr. Young, Mr. Rosenkrans — I think that is
eight.
The Chairman. What did they do; how long did they stay; and
what service did they perform ?
Mr. Eddy. Why, Mr. Jenkins was there perhaps a month. Senator;
Mr. Kneale, a month ; Mr. Goodall, a month; Mr. Reed, a week; Mrs.
Newton, three or four days ; Mr. Young, over night ; Mr. Rosenkrans,
about a week.
The Chairman. Where did they stay while they were there?
Whom did they stop with ? You ?
Mr. Eddy. I think that Mrs. Newton stopped at the house. Mr.
Charles was also there.
The Chairman. Where did the other supervisors stop?
Mr. P]ddy. Mr. Kneale stopped at the hotel, Mr. Young at the
hotel, Mr. Goodall on the round-up, Mr. Rosenkrans at the hotel — •
if I recall — I am not quite sure. I do not know that I was there,
perhaps, for a couple of days.
The Chair:man. Do you know a young man by the name of Logan
that is employed there?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir.
The CHAiR:NrAN. What capacity is he emploj^ed in?
Mr. Eddy. He was supervisor of ditches on the Tongue River '
irrigation project.
The Chairman. Was he also appointed a receiver for a cattle com-
pany?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir.
1798 TONGUE EIVER RESERVATION".
The Chairman. During the time he was serving as superintendent
of this irrigation project ?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Was that upon your recommendation?
Mr. Eddy. No, sir; upon a direct presentation of the facts and
a request that the department determine whether or not it was
proper to have him stop. I, of course, was very glad that they had
him stay. There was a vahiable irrigation project built on land
that melts like sugar. Mr. Logan had been with the construction
since its inception, and he was the most skilled irrigator in that
country. The receivership wan supposed to be of a temporary nature
and with the express understanding that he w^as to have no connec-
tion other than administrative, and that it would require none of his
time in connection with the receivership, and the department per-
mitted him to hold both places.
The CnATRisrAN. How could he perform the functions of a receiver
if it would not require any of his time?
Mr. Eddy. The cattle, of course, were ranging for the greater
part of the receivership, or for all the time I imagined originally
that the receivership would hold, but it did hold longer than I an-
ticipated, because of the difficulties between these partners.
The Chairman. You recommended to the department that he be
permitted to hold both places?
Mr. Eddy. I did not: I merely made a showing of facts and asked
the department to determine.
The Chairman. Did we get all this conversation between you and
Mr. Meritt on the street at the time he said '' You're in wrong " ?
Mr. Eddy. I told Mr. Meritt that it seemed to me that loyalty de-
manded that I stay with the man who was running the ship until
the ship went dow-n. And Mr. Meritt himself realized later that his
position was w^rong, and just before I left for the West he came
to the hotel and threw^ his arm around my shoulder, and he said,
" Eddy, it was wa-ong for me to do what I did. I should never have
accused you of being in a deal with Wanamaker. It is all right
to stand for your friends. Now, shake hands, old man, and go
back." And I shook hands on that proposition and went back.
The Chairman. There has been no feeling between you since?
Mr. Eddy. Nothing but the best of feeling on my part.
The Chair:man. Now. at this time, 1913, there was a pretty bitter
strife in the Indian Office between Mr. Abbott, the then assistant
commissioner, and Mr. Meritt. who was the law clerk, was there not?
Mr. Eddy. There was strife, and I was invited by Mr. ISIeritt to go
in and rectify that strife. He says, "■ Eddy, you're a friend of us
both. I wish you would endeavor to make good feeling." And, as
I have ahvays done, I endeavored to make an adjustment there be-
tween them. AVhen there were charges to be preferred to the Secre-
tary, as I overhead in the office of the commissioner, on my own
initiative I stepped in to say, " Don't do it ; it does not look right."
The Chairman. They Avere both aspiring to the same position at
the same time ?
Mr. Eddy. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Were they? Was not Mr. Abbott desiring to be-
come commissioner?
TONGUE KIVER RESERVATION. 1799
Eepresentative Burke. Xo.
Representative Carter. What charges were to be preferred?
Mr. Eddy. That was preferred against Mr. Meritt. as I overheard
m tlie office of the assistant commissioner. Of course, I had no
knowledge of the truth of these charges that Mr. Meritt had for six
weeks or more exchisively used a stenographer in behalf of his can-
didacy, writing letters to superintendents everywhere, and to Sena-
tors and Eepresentatives, and employees of the Government; and
when that was brought to my attention, in view of the fact that
Mr. Meritt had a splendid record for overwork and everybody knew
he was industrious, and because I presume everybody does that sort
of thing in a pinch like that, I said it did not seem to me it was
quite right.
Eepresentative Carter. Who was preferring the charges?
Mr. Eddy. The stenographer, I understand, brought the charges to
the attention of Mr. Abbott.
Representative Carter. Who was the stenographer?
Mr. Eddy. Miss Warner.
Representative Carter. Who was preferring the charges?
Mr. Eddy. Mv. Abbott, as I miderstand. Let me make this clear.
As I was in the office I understood the commissioner to say to Mr.
Holcombe that this was a serious situation, that this stenographer
had come and told him that she was greatly w^orried, that as a Gov-
ernment employee her time was being used in personal service for
Mr. Meritt.
Representative Carter. Who was commissioner then ?
Mr. Eddy. Mr. Abbott — assistant. And the proposition appealed
to me as a Avrong one for Mr. Abbott to take up, and I told him so.
I do not think those charges ever went to the Secretary. That is
exactly the relation I have had with every man in the service since
I have been in it. I have tried to play fair.
The Chairman. Do you know whether or not the charges were
sent to the Secretary?
Mr. Eddy. I do not know. I think they were not. They were
not at the time I left Washington, of Avhich I have any information.
Representative Carter. You spoke of a trip to New" York, Lincoln,
and other places. How long were you on that trip — 20 days?
Mr. Eddy. Not that trip. I did not explain. In going West, to
the reservation, I stopped off at Omaha on that trip
Representative Carter. "NMiat I want to know is how many days
were spent on that trip. Twenty-six days ?
Mr. Eddy. That was the total time.
Representative Carter. Where did you go Avhen you left the reser-
vation ?
Mr. Eddy. I think possiblv I stopped in Lincoln overnight to see
Mr. Selway.
Representative Carter. Don't you know ?
Mr. P]ddy. I have the record.
Representative Carter. Who is Mr. Selway?
Mr. Eddy. He is the man I have $30,000 worth of contracts with.
Representative Carter. What kind of contracts?
Mr. Eddy. Contracts to i)urchase horses and mares for Indians.
Representative Carter. Where did you go next?
1800 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION.
Mr. Eddy. Directly here, stopping, I believe, at Omaha or Chicago
en route.
Representative Carter. What did you stop at Omaha for?
Mr. Eddy. To see the superintendent of the Omaha warehouse, and
also the superintendent of the Chicago warehouse, with whom we
had business.
Representative Carter. What did you want to see them about ?
Mr. Eddy. To consult as to the status of the business we were
doing.
Representative Carter. Then, from Omaha you went to New York?
Mr. Eddy. No; then I came here.
Representative Carter. What did you do here?
Mr. Eddy. I was here to present, for Mr. Abbott, to the Members
of Congress argument, if you please, on behalf of reimbursable ap-
propriations, on our own account and for the Indians of the country.
We had made a success with the reimbursable appropriations that
has been remarked upon by this office as the most remarkable success
with those funds.
Representative Carter. Where did you go when you left here?
Mr. Eddy. Then I went directly home, stopping at Omaha over-
night.
Representative Carter. And then you went to New York ?
Mr. Eddy. I did. Then I came back here.
Representative Carter. Where did you go when you first came
here ?
Mr. Eddy. I either remained here or went to Ne^* York directly.
Representative Carter. I thought vou said j^ou ^id go to New
York.
Mr. Eddy. I did on the occasion of a visit, but I do not know
whether it was immediately on coming here or some time during my
stay.
Representative Carter. 1 ou left Washington and went to New
York to discuss Indian legislation?
Mr. Eddy. I have letters here from Mr. Grinnell to prove it.
Representative Carter. What liad Mr. Grinnell to do with legis-
lation?
Mr. Eddy. He has had a great deal to do with Indian legislation,
in presenting arguments to members of the committees handling
Indian legislation for many years.
Representative Carter. Has he done so very often in the last 10
years ?
Mr. Eddy. I do not know how often. He has, I believe, done a
good deal of business with Mr. Burke for many years.
Representative Carter. What did you expect Mr. Grinnell to do
in the way of getting legislation?
Mr. Eddy. Why, to write letters to Mr. Carter and to Mr.
Burke
Representative Carter. Was it your opinion that the Indian Office
was not capable of getting the legislation that was necessary and
presenting the matter strong enough to Congress, and that an out-
sider, like Mr. Grinnell. had to be called in to persuade Congressmen
to do their duty?
Mr. Eddy. I think the point is that he woidd merely be an inter-
ested and an intelligent adviser. He woidd not hope to influence
legislation except as he sliowed the need of it and the good of it.
TONGUE EIVER RESERVATIOISr. 1801
Representative Carter. AVhat was the result of your conference
with Mr. Grinnell? Did he agree to help you and write letters to
Congressmen about legislation?
Mr. Eddy. I am not sure, but he came down shortly after. He has
made several visits here in behalf of the Indians in recent years.
Representative Carter. I am not passing upon your motives, or
attempting to impugn your conduct, even if you were working for
Mr. Abbott; but the thing I can not understand is how it is you
should leave AVashington, where legislation is being done, and go to
New York,
Mr. Eddy. I had done all I could here, and wished to interest some-
body else to do all they could, too.
Representative Carter. Then you did think the Indian Office was
incapable of getting legislation for the protection of the Indians at
that time?
Mr. Eddy. I know that the Commissioner of Indian Affairs had no
assistant at that time, and he saw fit to use me to assist in presenting
arguments on those two points.
Representative Carter. You wanted Mr. Grinnell to bring his in-
fluence to bear on Congressmen to ^et the legislation that was neces-
sary?
Mr. Eddy, I do not think anything like that. I wish you knew Mr.
Grinnell.
Representative Carter. I know who he is very well. I have read
several of his books.
Mr. Eddy. AVould you like me to read a letter or two
Representative Carter. The point I am trying to get at is Avhat he
knew about legislation ?
Mr. Eddy. He probably had been influential in getting all the cat-
tle these Indians ever got by coming down here and hammering the
needs of the Indians upon Congress.
Senator Lane. Did he have anything to do with the cattle that are
going on the reserve?
jNIr. Eddy. He has never had anything to do with that. He is writ-
ing a history of the Northern Cheyenne Indians, and has been busy
on it for 23 3'ears.
' Representative Carter. AAHiile you were with Mr. Grinnell you dis-
cussed only your duties?
Mr. Eddy. I admitted here that
Representative Carter. You said you may have done it?
Mr. Eddf. I do not recall, really. Mr. Grinnell has a different
type of mind than Ave ordinarily meet with — interested in this public
service in this way. I regarded him so differently.
Re]iresentative Carter. Was this the customary manner then of
the Indian Bureau getting legislation through Congress?
Mr. Eddy. Oh, I think not.
Representative Carter. That was out of the ordinary then?
Mr. Eddy. It was out of the ordinary for an agent to interest him-
self in the way I have interested myself, so far as I am able to observe.
Representative Carter. At whose suggestion did you call on Mr.
Grinnell ?
Mr. Eddy. At my own initiative, and as I stated, four years ago,
for other legislation. I also went to New York to consult Mr. Grin-
nell.
1802 TONGUE EIVER EESERVATION.
Representative Carter. It Avas not an exceptional case then? It
was a customary case?
Mr. Eddy. It* was a thino; I had done before, before I ever knew
of Mr. Abbott.
The Chairmax. I asked you a while ago about the case of Mr.
Logan. I believe he was removed from the service for some transac-
tion in connection with that receivership ?
Mr. Eddy. Yes. Unfortunately, against my advice, he tendered
money to one Harvey Wilcott and in the course of inquiry at For-
sythe I found he had accepted such money. I immediately brought
it to the attention of the department, and Mr. Wilcott was sus-
pended— they were both permitted to resign.
The Chairman. What did he give him money for?
Mr. Eddi'. This man Wilcott was our stock inspector. At the time
of this receivership at Tongue Eiver they were removing the cattle
from the reservation, and Wilcott, an expert range man, was solicited
by one of these partners to look after their interests while he was look-
ing after ours. I stated to Wilcott when he put the proposition to me
that it would be wholly impracticable that he could be engaged, but
we could do it by an arrangenlent whereby we could make for the
Government so niuch per head in handling the cattle of this dissolv-
ing firm. But he saw fit to accept the tender of money from the
receiver, wholly unknown to me, and when it was brought to my at-
tention it was then brought to the attention of the department.
The Chairman. Why Vas it proper for Logan to be in the employ
of both, and not for Wilcott?
Mr. Eddy. As I have stated, Mr. Logan had nothing but an admin-
istrative connection with the receivership.
The Chairman. You have just shown that he had, and that his
conduct made it necessary for him and another employee to be re-
moved.
Mr, Eddy. Was not that administrative?
The Chairman. Perhaps it was administrative, but you have just
shown that his connection with it made it necessary for him to be
removed from the service, as was also another employee.
I asked you a while ago if you did not recommend that Logan be
permitted to take that employment, and you said you did not?
Mr. Eddy. I feel that I did'not. Without the record before me
The Chairman. I will ask you if, in a letter of July 18, 1912, you
did not say, referring to the character of the services he was to per-
form:
In view of the foi-e.iioin.i,' circnmstiiuces. iiiasiuufli ns there seems to be no
reason why .Mr. Lojiaii should not have the benefit of the compensiition that
comes to liim as receiver. I recommend that authority l)e ^'ranted for his con-
tinuance as supervisor of ditclies until the end of the shipping season, when
probably the business of the company he serves will be settled and no longer
require the services of a receiver.
Mr. Eddy. That is my language. It was my impression, of course,
when I answered that question to Mr. Linnen, Avithout any records
before me and Avithout any records to be ansAvered, that I had not
made any recommendation.
The CiiAHoiAN. Whom did you talk Avith about coming before the
commission? Who Avas it suggested your name to Senator Lane?
Do you know?
TONGUE EIVER EESERVATION. 1803
Mr. Eddy. Mr. Bentley.
Senator Lane. Did you know that he was going to do so ?
Mr. Eddy. I knew this: I had talked with Mr. Bentley at the hotel,
and I knew that Mr. Bentley had a groat interest in Indian affiairs,
that he was impressed, as he stated,, by the showing we have made on
the Tongue lliver Reservation ; and he stated to me that "" that is a
showing that should be presented to the committee, and I would be
very much interested to see it get before the committee " — absolutely
at his own initiative.
Senator Lane. And then you knew that he came to me and sug-
gested the same idea ?
Mr. Eddy. I had that in mind; yes, sir.
Mr. Bentley. ]\Ir. Chairman, will you permit me to offer a word ?
The Chairman. I do not care anj^thing about that.
(Thereupon, at 11.10 o'clock p. m., the joint commission stood ad-
journed to meet AVednesday, May 27, 1914, at 7.30 o'clock p. m.)
The following letters, etc., were submitted by Mr. John R. Eddy :
Tongue River Agency,
Lame Deer. Mont., Xorcnthcr .'/. 1908.
Subject : Grazing matters.
Hon. Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
WashiiigtoiK D. C.
Sir: Referring to land 44410-190S. October 29, 1908, I have to advise that
during the early fall, while on a visit here, Mr. George Bird Grinnell, who has
much influence with these Indians, and who is interested in their economic
condition, went with me to the home of Mr. Joseph T. Brown, one of the per-
mittees now grazing cattle on this reservation, for the purpose of discussing
grazing matters. Mr. Brown is the gentleman who agreed to put on 10,000
liead of cattle at $1.50 per head i)er year, providing the Indians would give
their consent to the arrangement. After a full discussion of the matter Mr.
Brown agreed to extend his present pasture if agreeable to the Indians and to
the Government, so as to allow him to put on about 3.000 head, for which he
would pay .$2 per year per head. I was much gratified at the generous dispo-
sition of 'Slv. Brown, and felt confident that arrangements could be made for
getting an unreserved consent from the Indians. JNIr. Grinnell made full notes
and intended advising the commissioner personally of the status of the matter.
]\Ir. Brown was, ]ierh;i]is. the only man in the country who at the time we dis-
cussed matters with him would be willing to put on any considerable numbers
of cattle here. The settlers, while admitting that tlie Indians are killing
practically no cattle without the bounds of the reservation, are slow to believe
that their cattle would be unmolestetl if put on the reservation. I regret ex-
ceedingly that since Mr. Grinuell's visit Mr. Brown has died. I recently dis-
cussed grazing matters with Mrs. Brown, who is administering ilr. Brown's
estiite. and I am inclined to think that she will let the matter of increasing the
size of the leased pasture on the reservation rest for a while. It is probable,
however, that ]Mrs. P>rown witli Mr. Brewster will request permission to hold
the present leased pasture for another year. Mr. Brown's death is a severe
blow to the plans that we were forming with a view to having all of the range
utilized. Though interest will be maintained to try to have others bring cattle
on this range. I do not think that we will find anyone who will go as far in
the matter as Mr. Brown was disposed to go.
Having in mind that the Cheyennes have netted :il)out $30,000 in sales of
increase from the I. (MM) head purchased for issue to them five years ago, and
that there is at least .$7."i.000 worth of stock on the range developed from the
purchase of 1,000 head made five years ago. including original stock and in-
crease, I deem it an ji.ltogether reasonable move to recjuest that the deiiartment
consider the proi)osition of recpiesting of the Congress an approi'riation of
$100,000 to be devoted to the purchase of approximately 3.000 head of cows
1804 TONGUE RIVEE EESERVATION.
with calves by their sides for the northern Cheyennes, with the proviso that
the Government be fnlly reimbursed for the expenditure involved from the
initial sales of increases from said stock. In this connection I invite attention
to Voucher No. 20 of the cash account for the first quarter 11)08, which shows
that these Indians received about $12,000 net from the sale of ISO head of
3 and 4 year old steers (increase of the issue herd of 1,000 head purchased
five years ago). It will be seen from the unusually heavy weights of the
animals accounted for on said voucher that this is unquestionably the best
possible range for beef steers.
It seems hardly likely that the Congress could be persuaded to make a large
appropriation as that cited as a gratuity, and our experience here justifies
the belief that the increase from the herd of 3,000. the purchase of which is
proposed, would allow for full reimbursement to the Government at the end
of six or seven years. There would then remain on hand, providing no unusual
winters interfered or fatal epidemic disease occurred in the herd, a very large
number of animals for distribution among the heads of families. In order,
to make the policing of the reservation effective during the time the cattle
were being held by the Government, a deputy United States marshal should
be here to have general oversight of the police and of the range and the
cattle. Our reservation is completely fenced. The winter protection is per-
fect. It is pronounced as the best range for cattle in ^Montana. To make the
proposed plan effective, I would gladly consent to remain to give it free play.
In case the purchase was arranged for, and it should develop that our plans
for the protection of the cattle did not prove effective against the lessening
tendency of the Indians to kill cattle, then the animals could be sold and the
proceeds deposited in the Treasury with a comparatively small loss to the
Government, when it is considered what a substantial benefit would result
both to the Go\erninent and the Indians, should the proposition work out as
it seems reasonable to expect it might. If the above plan finds any favor with
the ofiice. I would be glad to go into it further, as I have thought much about
it and personally regard it as feasible.
Very respectfully,
J. R. Eddy.
^iipt. and S. D. A.
Tongue Rivfr Agency,
LdDicdcer, Mont.. Anfjin^t 20. WV2.
Mr. W. A. Jones,
Mineral Point, ir/.s\
My Dear JNIr. Jones: I am happy to have the kindly exi>resslons contained in
your letter of July 27. It would have pleased all of us greatly had your plans
permitteil a number of da.vs with our round-up outfit.
We anticipate a large gather of iirime beeves foi* shipment early in September
and at the astounding prices now being paid for beef cattle can not fail of re-
turning to the Cheyennes a goodly sales account.
The Cheyennes have refrained steadfastly from cattle killing in the last
six years that their herd is now worth $350,000, and they have already netted
from it $125,000, and all from an initial investment of $60,000. These results
have stimulated us to hope that we may in their interest form a stock company
that will undertake to stock the range to its reasonable limit, with the under-
standing that 4 per cent only shall be paid, and the balance of returns after
paying interest and other charges go to reimbursing stockholders their invest-
ments, so that when our helpers are fully paid out the residue of the herd
shall be distributed among the Indians of the reservation.
;Mr. GrinnoU. conservative always, as yon know, believes that this thing can
be made to go, and I shall undertake to float the proposition this fall. The
department is favorable. The herd to be purchased will be branded in the
stock company brand and will remain with the company as security for the
fulfillment of our jnirposes.
This sort of thing for a tribe like the Cheyenne is well worth while. These
sturdy people, the best Indians in the Northwest, .according to Gen. Miles, have
since subjection been a very poorly equippeil tribe econcunieally.
TONGUE EIVER RESEEVATION. 1805
I trust that in another season you may feel able to visit the Chevennes for
they would be glad to meet the commissioner who first realized the need for
furnishing them with breeding cattle.
With kind regards, I remain, sincerely, yours,
J. R. Eddy,
agreement — contract sale.
Tongue River Agency,
Lamedeer, Mont., August 2J,, 1912.
This agreement evidences that R. R. Selway. of Sheridan, Wvo and J R
Eddy, superintendent and supervising distributing agent of the Tongue River
Agency, Lamedeer, Mont., for and on behalf of the undersigned Black AYolf a
member of the Northern Cheyenne Tribe of Indians of said agency hereby con-
tract and agree as follows:
Said R. R. Selway agrees to deliver to the said Black Wolf. Indian through
the superintendent, on September 15, 1912, at , Mont., or such other point
as shall be designated by the superintendent, one draft-bred stallion, described
as follows :
Color, brown-bay; age, 3 years; estimated weight at maturity, 1,300 pounds:
and branded thus b on right jaw. '
Which stallion is to be run by said Black Wolf with 20 or more mares now
owned by him ; and it is agreed that within 10 days after receiving the above-
described stallion said Black Wolf shall castrate all studs now runniu" with
the mares owned by him ; and that all stud colts foaled from mares owned
by him during the period covered by this contract agreement shall be castrated
within two years after foal.
It is agreed that no mares owned by the said Black W^olf shall be sold by
him within the period covered by this contract except with the consent of the
superintendent, and the proceeds from the sale of such mares as may be sold
shall be applied in payment of the cost price of the above-described stallion,
which is hereinafter specifietl.
It is agreed by R. R. Selway that the above-described stallion shall be de-
livered to J. R. Eddy, superintendent, on behalf of said Black Wolf at a con-
sideration of $380, with interest at 10 per cent per annum, which consideration
with interest, shall be due and payable September 1, 1915; but any portion
of said consideration may be paid in cash at any time prior to said date and
interest shall cease on the amount paid; and R. R. Selway agrees to receive
cash, or horses, as hereinafter specified, in lieu of cash, in^ settlement of such
portion of the above-specified consideration, with interest, as may be due Sep-
tember 1, 1917, viz : All mares or gelding not less than 3G months old on Sep-
tember 1, 1917. as in the judgment of R. R. Selway shall have been sired by
the above-describetl stallion, to be selected by R. R. Selway at a value of $70 per
head, and such horses as R. R. Selway, or his agent, shall judge not to have
been sired by the said stallion, if offered by said Black Wolf to apply in pay-
ment of said consideration shall be received by R. R. Selway at the market
price of said horses, the market price to be determined by R. R. Selway, or his
agent, and J. R. Eddy, superintendent, on behalf of Black Wolf, or by three
disinterested appraisers, one chosen by R. R. Selway, or his agent one^by the
superintendent, and the third by the persons chosen, and their decision shall
be final and binding as to the market value of the horses in question
It is agreed by the said Black Wolf that all mares and geldings 'offered in
satisfaction of the consideration and accrued interest will be tied up with
flve-eighth-inch rope halter and not a hard twisted lariet and tameil for one day
during the summer that they are 1 year old, and that they will be delivered
to R. R. Selway on or about September 1. 1917, in good condition or fat,
solid colors, free of blemishes and tamed to the extent that they will not be
man shy."
It is agreed that all horses received in payment of the consideration and in-
terest named in this agreement by R. R. Selway shall be delivered to him on or
about , at ; and it is agreetl that the above-described stallion shall
remain the property of R. R. Selway until fully paid for as hereinbefore set
forth, and in the event payment has not been made in full of the consideration
:md interest named herein by Black Wolf, J. R. Eddy, superintendent, on behalf
or said Black Wolf, hereby agrees to turn over to said R. R. Selway a suthcieiit
1806 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION.
number of horses, the properly of said lilack Wolf, at their inarliet v:ilue, as
shall be required to complete satisfaction of this Kbiipition in full, including
Interest at 10 per cent per annum from date until jiaid.
Signed in good faith, but no tin.iiicial obligation is assured by reasou of this
agreement by the superintendent or the United States Government.
R. R. Selway,
J. R. Eddy,
SuperintriKlciit Toiifjuc River Af/cnrii. Mont., for
and on hehaJf of the Undersigned, lilaek Wolf.
Black Wolf (his thumb mark).
Witnesses : " .
Milton Whitman,
Lomedeer, Mont.
E. H. Hale, -
Lamedeer, Mont. 5
I, Milton W^hitman, hereby certify that I have truly interpreted the foregoing
Instrument to Black Wolf and that he has agreed to and fully understands the
intents and purposes of the same.
Milton Whitman, Interpreter.
November 6, 1911.
Gen. Nelson A. Miles,
Lieutenant General United States Army, Washinffton, D. C.
My Dear Gen. Miles : I feel greatly indebted to you for your letter of Novem-
ber 4, in which you express intei'est to supi)ort the i)roposition w^hich may take
the form of a request for new legislation in the interest of a development of
the cattle business of the northern Cheyennes.
The record that the Cheyennes have made in the past six years as cattle
raisers is an astonishing and commendable one, and is sutficient basis, it would
seem, to urge in their interest legislation that will secure for them advances to
be used in the purchase of more cattle, so that the business may be at once put
on a very productive foundation.
It is a pleasure to me to read the tribute that you offer the tribe. Their
splendid courage makes all people interested to become their champions.
Thanking you for the kindly consideration you have given the Indian delega-
tion and this' highly valued letter which was written in their interest. I remain,
Very truly, yours.
(Signed) J. R. Eddy,
Superintendent Tongue River Indian School
Washington, D. C, yoxemher Ji, 1911
Mr. J. R. Eddy,
Agent Northern Cheyenne Indians,
Lame Deer, Mont.
My Dear Mr. Eddy: I understand that a recommendation has been made that
the Government advance $50,000 out of the appropriations guaranteed to these
Indians during a term of years. The importance of this measure would be that
the sum thus advanced to them could be used in the purchase of cattle to stock
their reservation in addition to what they now have, and the yearly increase
would be of the greatest benefit to this tribe. This would be no additional cost
to the Government and is a measure that I would earnestly recommend in order
to promote the welfare of these people.
The Northern Cheyenne Indians are certainly entitled to most favorable con-
sideration by the Government. They were at one time one of the strongest and
most intelligent tribe of Indians on the frontier. After the severe campaigns of
187(>-77 they were the first to accept the conditions of the Government and
pledge themselves to maintain peace in that territory. A number of their
Iirominent men — White Bull, Brave Wolf, and others — gave themselves as
hostages for the faith of the tribe, and when they came in with the Sioux to
surrender they gave up their rifles and also a large number of their war
ponies. The latter were sold and the proceeds returned to them in domestic
stock. Since that time they have complied with the directions of the Govern-
ment and led peaceful lives. They furnished young men to act as guides and
scouts and trailers, who accompanied the troops on their campaigns against
the hostile tribes led by Lame Deer and Chief Joseph. They were most enter-
TONGUE EIVEK KESERVATION. 1807
prising, daring, and faithful. Some of them were wounded in the different en-
gagements. They also rendered good service while employed in Iiuildiug roads
1 and other work m which they were engaged. They cultivated the ground and
i for several years niised very good crops at Fort Keough. .Alont. I am very glad
to know that the Government has reserved for them their present reservation
and I hope their people may continue in possession of it for all time The fact
; that they have remained at peace for more than 30 years and 'under the
most embarra^uig circumstances have increased their domestic stock by good
I care and attention shows that they are worthy of encouragement, and I VeSom-
meud that everything be done that can be done for their welfare
^ ery truly, yours,
•
Nelson A. Miles,
Lieutenant General, United States Army.
Tongue Rivee Agency.
Lamcdeer, Mont., August 21, 1912
Dear Mr Leupp: It gave me much pleasure to extend to Dr. Grinnell your
I compliments and now I am very sure tJiat it will be made a point with him to
advise you more frequently as to his whereabouts. He has dropped active
,connec-tion with Forest and Stream and is now bu.sying himself with
writings. His Cheyenne Tales are yet in the making with no definite word
from the author as to when they will be given out. I know that Dr. Gri nell
.would be glad to have you spend a part of one of your summer outings he^^e
,aud It would p ease us mightily, if it strikes you agreeably, to consider coming
! to Lamedeer while we are here. Our hill country is quite like that of the Beii
shires as to contonnation and is quite as beautiful as to forest cover, though
our growth is coniferous rather than deciduous
^/^.^5*t k"*-'^^; ^^'^;it success will follow our efforts, but backed by Dr. Grinnell
and with the already secured assent of Mr. Valentine and Mr. Abbott I plan
'to secure. If possible, this fall in the East $200,000 to 'stock the rese'rvadon.
; The Idea is to form a stock company to be formed of business philanthropists
,who will be requested to subscribe in $10,000 allotments. The cattle purchased
; will become the security of the investors and be carried in a company brand
until sales of increase reimburse investor.s, who will receive 3 or 4 per cent
on their money while in use. ^
! Secured in this way and in view of our actual results during the past six
.years on this range it does not seem that we should find it hard to secure the
icapital. In brief, to date we have the following record with Indian cattle-
lien years ago the Government invested $30,000 for breeding heifers- five
jyears ago you secured an additional $30,000 for the same purpose I 'have
QiT fnn VT'^'^'''^^ ^'■'''." '^'^'^ ""^ increase from these heifers and have netted
ri-:^,''^^^; '-^^^ 'ly 'Actual inventory this summer have tallied a herd, the result
ken n<^'^ '''■'' luvestment, of $300,000. In other words, our total investment of
$60,000 has realized for us $425,000. It is positively amazing how profits pile
iup from beef cattle on such a range as this. Now, then, we lease to outsiders
inori^'"/''^^"^, ""^ running about 7,000 head and our range would stand about
10 000 head above the I. D. herd. It seems to me that our Indians, in their peculiar
situation, should get the full benefit of their range as they would do if a stock
company is formed and privileged to run a herd at 3 or 4 per cent until paid
|0Ut. After paying out we would have a large herd in the company brand to be
jdisposed of by pro rata issue to the heads of families on the reservation and
,from this herd together with the I. D. herd the range would be fully stocked in
the Indian interest and the Indians of the reserve would be practically self-
supporting.
Some of the most successful stockmen of the local country, men who respond
splendidly when asked to pass upon the practicability of a "scheme of this sort
eome forward to say that under our unique conditions the proposition is abso-
;lutely safe and sane. I trust that it will seem so to those to whom it will in
|good faith, be presented.
j Our condtions are ideal. The reservation is not yet even surveyed; allotment
will doubtless be as much retarded here as anywhere in the country- the reser-
^atlon is fenced: it is unusually well watered; it has ideal "winter pro-
itection; hay can be readily grown for winter protective feeding- there are
no railroads nearer than 50 miles; our Indians have been taught, to' refrain from
'•attie killing; our lessees are anxious to again lease the grazing privileges, thus
snowing practicability of growing foreign cattle; the market is higher than ever
ibetore in the history of the stockyards; we grow the heaviest and the best beef
1808 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION.
brought to the Chicago markets; these ludiaiis are worth while doing the
uuusual thing for.
I will be glad if you like the tenor of the plan as outlined above to have
your valued support in putting forward.
I have securetl in the past three years from various sources some 90 draft-
bred studs for these Indians and I wish I could point out to you directly on
the ground the splendid economic results from this step to improve the horse
stock of Indians. The more I live in this good grass country the better I real-
ize what great opportunities for increased wealth are lost to the Indians through
lack of use of good stallions. I find that the $15 Indian mare on the first cross
with a well-selegted stud can readily bring as a 4-year-old under present
mai'ket conditions $75, and many thousands of such animals can be grown on
each reservation. We are noted now for good studs and in consequence the
reputation advances to our Indians the price received even for their run-of-the-
range stuff.
You see I am writing as though you were still in harness and, in fact, as ftir
as goes, I am satisfied that you will never wean yourself away from constructive
concern in the Indian.
I expect to take a large shipment of cattle to market in Chicago September
1 and then to return to perfect plans for the foray outlined above, which will
be undertaken in November.
Mrs. Eddy joins me in best wishes.
Sincerely, yours,
Mr. Francis E. Leupp,
Tyringham, Mass.
CONTRACT AGREEMENT.
This agreement evidences that R. R. Selway, of Sheridan, Wyo., and J. R.
Eddy, superintendent of the Tongue River Agency, Lame Deer, Mont., for and
on behalf of the undersigned. John Redheads, a member of the Northern Chey-
enne Tribe of Indians of said agency, do hereby contract and agree as follows:
Said R. R. Selway hereby bargains, sells, and delivers to the said John Red-
beads, Indian, two mares, described as follows: Color, bay (4), gray (2);
weight, 1,100 pounds: age 4 and 2: branded (Y) on right jaw; for a total con-
sideration of $300, to be paid by the said John Redheads within 24 months from
date hereof out of any moneys received by said John Redheads, Indian, from
sale of his cattle or from any moneys earned by said Indian during the time
that the above debt or any portion thereof remains unpaid to said R. R. Selway^
and it is hereby mutually understood and agreed that there is to be no interest
charged on this account except on such portion as may remain unpaid on No-
vember 1, 1914, which portion to draw interest at the rate of 10 per cent per
annum from November 1. 1912. Aiid said John Redheads. Indian, and said
J. R. Eddy, superintendent, for and on behalf of said John Redheads. Indian,
hereby acknowledge having received the above described animals on November
1, 1912, which is the date of this agreement. And it is hereby mutually under-
stood and agreed that the above-described mares and their increase are to re-
main in the possession of said John Redheads, Indian, and subject to the control
of J. R. Eddy, superintendent, as security for the payment to R. R. Selway of
the consideration herein stated. And said R. R. Selway is to be kept fully
advised as to the number of increase from above mares and their brands they
are branded.
And we, the undersigned, hereby accept this contract as binding and signed
in good faith, but no financial ^ibligation is assumed by reason of same by the
superintendent or by the United States Government.
R. R. Selway.
J. R. Eddy, ^iijicriHtcndcnt,
For ami on behalf of the under signed —
John Redbeads (his thumb mark).
Witness :
Frank A. Nelson.
I, Willis Roland, a member of the Northern Cheyenne Tribe of Indians, of
Lame Deer, Mont., hereby certify that I have truly interpreted the foregoing
instrument to the undersigned, .ifohn Redbeads, and that he understands the
intents and purposes of said instrument, and is agreed to same.
Willis Rowland, Itifcrpreter.
TONGUE ElVEE KESERVATION. 1809
[Personal. J. R. E.]
Dfoember 9. 1012.
Mr. George Bird Grinnell.
23S East Fifteenth Street, New York City, N. Y.
Dear Mr. Grinnell : I have your letter of December 7, and regret that
engagements prevent your coming here early this week, and if it proves im-
practicable for you to come to Washington before Tuesday evening of next
week I will at once, upon hearing from you, return to Lame Deer.
Mr. Abbott has just advised me that the House threw out of the Indian bill
the $100,000 item but allowed the Pine Ridge matter to stay in the bill. He
is much disappointed that the $100,000 was cut, and suggested, that I urge upon
you the advantage your presence would be before the committee at this time if
it is practicable for you to join with us in seeing the committee. A great deal
of cut has been made throughout the Indian bill, which goes to the Senate at
once, and it is reported that the Indian bill will be the first of the large appro-
priation acts to be disposed of. I have received from Lame Deer a detailed
report individually showing what 250 beneficiaries have received and made re-
payments upon. This report makes a splendid basis for appeal to the committee
for further funds of the same sort, and there is much sympathy with our project
right here in the office.
Aware that your custom prevents you from making use of Fridays and Sat-
urdays, I hardly dare hoiie that you may feel free to come before next Tues-
day evening, aud I would not make this last mentioned of the matter we have in
mind if it were not that any action to be had this session must be promptly
given to be effective on account of the early anticipated passage of the Indian
act. All of our matters are receiving good attention, and I feel well rewarded.
With best wishes to Mrs. Grinnell and yourself, I remain,
t Sincerely, yours,
[Personal. J. R. E.]
December 11, 1912.
Mr. George Bird Grinnell.
23S East Fifteenth Street, Neiv York, N. Y.
Dear Mr. Grinnell: I received your letter of the 10th this morning, and
can well understand how it is difficult for you, without advance notice, to leave
New York, but it is pleasing to feel that some time ]iiter you may find it con-
venient to visit Washington.
I will leave on Thursday or Friday evening, having done all that could be
done here ; very well satisfied with the results of the visit. Yesterday, at
Mr. Abbott's suggestion, I took the report of use (if our reimbursable fund
to Mr. Mundell, of the Appropriations Committee, had an hour and a half with
him, and was able to set forth our situation to him. He expressed much in-
terest in what was being done, and seemed to look upon it as a good business
proposition for the Government to allow the Indians the $100,000,000 that we
asked for, and I feel sure that if later you see him you will feel that he has
a business sympathy at least with our proposition.
It seems probable that we will be able to have our grazing funds set aside
for general-purpose improvements rather than for school support, a prospect
which is indeed a pleasing one. It looks, too, as though we would have a freer
hand hereafter in the use of our cattle moneys.
I saw Mr. Newell this morning, showed him something of the work that is
being done; he is much pleased with It also, and expressed the hope that you
would call on him at any time when you come to Washington.
Hale, fortunately for us always efficient, reports that the schools are full,
and that conditions are generally happy. I find from the bureau here that the
superior of the mission is not to be transferred, but that hereafter the business
charge of the school will rest with the rector of the mission.
I will write you again just before I leave Washington, to let you know of
any definite developments that happen in the next few days.
Supervisor Peairs, of the Indian schools, has shown great interest in Mr,
Mintz's pictures, and will doubtless write to Mr. Mintz in a few days, with a
view to securing use of his negatives for slides which will be shown throughout
the service in stereopticon talks.
With best wishes to you and to Mrs. Grinnell, I remain,
Sincerely, yours,
35001— PT 14—14-
1810 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATIOISr.
I
February 14, 1913. ^
Mr. George Bird Grinnell,
238 East Fifteenth Street, New York, N. Y.
Dear Mr. Grinnell ; I regret exceedingly that after starting out upon the
pilgrimage eastward, poor old White Bull found it necessary to turn back and
give place to Black Wolf, whom the tribe unanimously chose as substitute for
him. We are glad, indeed, to have good Black Wolf, than whom there is no
better Indian, but I had counted much upon the coming of White Bull, who
is so unique among men.
Mr. Hale wired that the delegation previously named, with the above noted
change, was to start last night, and I assume that they are now happily rolling
this way. For some reason, Milton Little Whiteman comes along too. There
is certainly no dearth of interpreters for this delegation. It would appear
that each of the honored members of the delegation has a special message and
a special interest to have it uttered by a special interpreter. We could hardly
have a better delegation, and I nm satisfied that Black Wolf will make an
appeal to the commissioner that for breadth of view and sense can not be bet-
tered. Black Wolf is really splendid in every way. and I will enjoy taking these
fine fellows about. Of course, old Two Moons now rambles in his thoughts,
and he is therefore hardly likely to make a very progressive display. I look
for great things from Wooden Leg. If the Indians have not finery enough,
would it be easy to borrow from the New York museums? I will see Dr. Hodge
and Mr. Mooney here so that nothing will be passed to make the nativity of the
Indians apparent.
I believe arrangements can be made for the stay of the Indians at the New
Capital Hotel, at corner of Third Street and Pennsylvania Avenue.
Reports from Lame Deer indicate continuing cold weather, but no distress
among Indians, and general good health among all. I suspect that tongues are
wagging among the Indians left behind as to what this new call upon it for
a delegation is all about, and from the fact that no wrangling ensued as to
the make-up of the delegation, or with respect to the settlement of its bills,
that the feeling among the members of the tribe must be good indeed.
I feel as you do as to the importance of the Pine Ridge legislation, but on
account of its being merely an authority to transfer from one fund to another
amounts now due the tribe it hardly seems that we will have any difficulty.
Sincerely, yours,
Department of the Interioh.
Office Assistant Commissioner of Indian Affaiks,
Washington, March IS, 1913.
My Dear Gen. Allen : In connection with other matters which Supt. Eddy,
of the Northern Cheyenne Indian Reservation, has Ijeen called to Washington
to take up is that of conferring with me upon the practicability of the plan
formerly prepared for breeding cavalry horses on Indian re.servations. This plan
was formulated several months ago after a conference between former Com-
missioner Valentine, Dr. Melvin, of the Bureau of Animal Industry, and a repre-
sentative of the War Department. Mr. Eddy has been successful in crossing
draft stallions with Indian pony mares on the Northern Cheyenne Reservation.
I shall appreciate any time that you feel able to give to Mr. Eddy in working
out the details of this important proposition.
Sincerely, yours,
F. H. Abbott.
Acting Commissioner.
Brig. Gen. James Allen,
Chief Signal Officer, War Department, Washington, D. C.
I
Departmf-nt ok the Interior,
United States Indian Service,
Washington, D. C, March 13, 1913.
My Deab Dr. Melvin : [a connection with other matters which Supt. Eddy,
of the Northern Cheyenne Indian Reservation. ha.s been called to Washington
I
TONGUE EIVER EESEEVATION. 1811
to take up Is that of conferriug with me upon the piacticabilitv of the plan
prepared by you for breeding cavalry horses on Indian reservations This plan
was formulated several months ago after a conference with you by former Com-
missioner Valentine and a representative of the War Department Mr Eddy
has been successful in crossing draft stallions with Indian pony mares on the
Northern Cheyenne Reservation. I shall appreciate anv time that you feel able
to give to Mr. Eddy in working out the details of this i'mj-ortant proposition
Sincerely, yours,
(Signed) F. H. Abbott,
^ . .r^ ,, -Acting Conimif^ftioncr.
Dr. A. D. Melvin,
GJiief Bureau of Aninuil Industry, Washingion, D. C.
Note.— Mr. Rommel: I think we should take this matter up now with Mr
Eddy, for I believe we can go ahead. I have discussed it some with him.
(Signed) A. D. Melvin.
Department or the Interior.
Office Assistant Commissioner or Indian Affairs,
Washington. March 13, 1913.
My Dear Dr. Melvin : In connection with other matters which Supt
Eddy, of the Northern Cheyenne Indian Reservation, has been called to Wash-
ington to take up is that of conferring with me upon the practicability of
the plan prepared by you for breeding cavalry horses on Indian reservations
This plan was formulated several months ago after a conference with you by
former Commissioner Valentine and a representative of the W^^r Department.
Mr. Eddy has been successful in crossing draft stallions with Indian pony
mares on the Northern Cheyenne Reservation. I shall appreciate any time
that you feel able to give to Mr. Eddy in working out the details of this im-
portant proposition.
Sincerely, yours,
F. H. Abbott. Acting Commissioner.
Dr. A. D. Melvin,
Chief Bureau of Animnl Industry, Washington, D. C.
Mr. Rommel : I think we should take this matter up now with Mr. Eddy, for
I believe we can go ahead. I have discussed it some with him.
A. D. Melvin.
,. , „ New York, N. T.
Mr. John R. Eddy, Washington. D. C.
Dear Sir: I wrote you that I could not go to Washington this week but I
had some hope that I might be able to go down there on Tuesday. That hope
has been shattered, as I have an important meeting for Tuesdav at 10.30 a. m.,
while Wednesday and Thursday are also taken bv engagements" that can not be
broken.
I am very sorry that I can not be in Washington and see the Secretary while
you are there, but this can not be. 1 am not without some hope that Congress
may give our Cheyennes the $100,000 reimbursement for which Mr. Abbott has
asked. If we can not get it from Congress, then it will be necessary to try
other means.
You will be interested. I think, as I am, to see that the New York Herald
IS apparently making strong drive for the betterment of Indian conditions. It
is good that a paper of the wide circulation of the Herald should show interest
in the subject. If Congress declines in this short session to give the Cheyennes
the money they need, it may he necessary for you to come on again and see
whether this sum can be raised through private philanthropy.
I trust that you will succeed in getting the grazing moneV turned back to
some use better than the school. That should be supported from school funds
1 feel that this grazing money ought to be put into live stock, preferably cattle
Please write me from Washington and report such progress as seems visible.
Let me know also when you are likely to leave for the West.
Yours, sincerely,
Geo. Bird Grinnell.
1812 TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION.
[Extiact EroQi Mohonk Conference, October, 1911.]
!{! * V ••;■! * * *
passer, but I will alwjiys be in tlie position of passing tlie saucer. [Applause.l
The Chairman. We will be further entertained by a discussion on Farming
and Stock Raising among the Indians, by Supt. Eddy, of the Northern Cheyenne
Reservation.
Mr. Eddy. Mr. Chairman, ladies, and gentlemen. I knew but this morning that
the subject named by your chairman would be assigned me. But as stock rais-
ing and farming are interests that properly should be of vital importance on
nearly all Indian reservations of the Northwest, perhaps this is as interesting
a topic as could be given.
The Indian Commissioner is laying particular stress upon the need of the field
men of the service stimulating the Indians to industry. As evidence of this, I
may refer to a meeting of the reservation superintendents of ^Montana, author-
ized by Commissioner Valentine, held two years ago on the Crow Reservation,
at which Assistant Co:nmissioner Abbott, who previously, as regent of his
State university, had oversight of the Agricultural College of Nebraska, and,
therefore, naturally interested in reservation agricultural development, strongly
endeavored to impress upon the assembled superintendents a sense of their
great responsibility to make the best use. in the interest of the Indians, of the
resources of their respective reservations.
All the Indian re.servations of the Northwest should be self-supporting. With
immense areas, with fertile land, and with good nnu-kets the opportunities are
abundant to enable the Indians, under intelligent direction, to attain economic
independence.
To illustrate these possibilities, may I speak of what the Northern Cheyeunes
are doing with the splendid grazing range of their reservation?
Dr. George Bird Grinnell, well known to all members of this conference, has
for many years been actively interested to have the Government recognize th6
desirability of stocking the Northern Cheyenne Reservation with cattle, and
only yesterday spoke to me of the many satisfactory exchanges had between
himself and our honored chairman at the time of the Vice President's connec-
tion with the Indian Committee of the House of Repre.sentatives.
In 1903 Congress gave these Indians 1,000 head of breeding heifers and in
1907 1,000 more. The total investment for breeding stock was within $60,000.
Up to date the.se Indians have actually received $125,000 from sale of the in-
crease of these animals and they have in addition over $250,000 worth of
cattle upon the range. These satisfactory results are the more remarkable
that they were achieved by the Northern Cheyeunes, who have always been
popularly regarded as the most voracious beef-eating Indians of the North-
west. It is a fact that these Indians have recognized, as they have annually
received proceeds from the sale of their cattle, that it is to their best interest
to leave their cattle alone; and this they are doing. To those who know the
cattle business, when told that 2,300 calves were branded upon the reservation
this year, being increase from the heifers previously mentioned as having been
given them by the Government, the conclusion must be that these Indians are
making a good showing in their cattle business.
On other reservations similar opportunities might be given Indians to make
headway. Only two or three weeks ago, in a council held at the Crow Reserva-
tion, a respected chief rose in the presence of the assistant commissioner to say,
" We want all our available receipts turned into cattle for us, that we may be
enabled to enjoy prosperity here." It is just possible that the Crows, mixing as
they do at times with the Cheyennes, have come to realize that the best use they
can malve of their reservation, which they own, is to turn it into a grazing
pasture for the raising of cattle for themselves.
I believe for the encouragement of industry that it is practicable to consider
the feasibility of providing uoncitizen Indians everywhere with Government
funds to be reimbursable, so that at appropriate seasons each year, as required,
backward Indians may be permitted to purchase seeds, implements, and work
stock. The Indians will soon realize the signifieance of such funds .ind will
hasten to be benefited by their use. The experience had with such funds for
the past few years in Montana has been satisfactory. Of course such funds
have to be handled with discretion so as to insure their ultimate return to the
Treasury. The idea is lo have Congress appropriate a certain considerable
amount which, in the discretion of the Secretary of the Interior, shall be
available for a tixed term of years for the purchase of equipment destined to
assist worthy Indians to reach self-support. The beneficiaries of the fund
TONGUE RIVER RESERVATION", 1813
agree to make full repayment of the advances made to them within a fixed
time. I am pleased to invite the conference to consider the advisability of
suggesting that the privileges of such funds be extended fijrther, as a means
of encouraging industry among Indians of the country.
Irrigation with some of the Indians is almost a new proposition ; and though
some of the plains Indians are not naturally farmers I am glad to state that
the Northern Cheyennes, for whom the Government has recently put 800
acres of land under irrigation ditches, which has been allotted in 20-acre tracts,
are making commendable use of their irrigated lands. All of the allotments
have been fenced, and nearly all of the 40 allottees have built root cellars
and stored them full of products for winter use. The advent of a root cellar
on an Indian allotment is a most encouraging sign, indicating that the Indian
farmer is giving some thought to the future.
I believe that Indians generally should be encouraged to carry on both stock
raising and farming on their allotments. Caring for the stock makes it neces-
sary for the Indian to put up forage for his stock, and as Indians are prover-
bially improvident, it is desirable to inculcate ideas of providence in dealing with
him, and he naturally becomes provident if obliged to put up forage for the
horse and cattle stock that he is interested to raise.
The holding* of agricultural fairs on Indian reservations has been encouraged
during the past few years by the administration, and it is believed that the
same fruitful results follow to the Indian interested in these fairs as come to
those of us interested to attend our customary county and State fairs. The
Indian fair can be used as a means of persuading Indians inclined to leave
their ranches during the cropping season to stay at home so that they may
be prepared to make a good showing when the big fair festival takes place
in the fall after the harvest of crops. In order that Indians may not get into
the habit of going from one reservation to another to attend fairs, and thus
have the fairs fail of serving their real puriwse, it seems desirable that they
should be held as far as practicable upon simultaneous dates. The reserva-
tion fair has demonstrated its worth as a means of arousing competitive interest
among Indian farmers and stockmen, and any unprejudiced observer will be
impressed that the Indian prize winner is as happy with his trophies as any
successful white exhibitor at a regular county fair could ipossibly be. [Ap-
plause.]
(Notified that his time had expired.)
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION
SERIAL ONE
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
JOINT COMMISSION OF THE
CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES
I
SIXTY-THIRD CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
TO
INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS
JANUARY 26 and 27, FEBRUARY 3, MARCH 17, 18, and 31,
MAY 27, JUNE 4 and 17, and JULY 14, 1914
PART 15
Printed for the use of the Joint Commission
WASHINGTON
QOVRRNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
1914
1
Congress of the United States.
JOINT COMMISSION TO INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS.
Senators : Representatives :
JOF T ROBINSON, Arkansas, Chairman. JOHN H. STEPHENS, Texas.
HARRY LANE, Oregon. CHARLES D. CARTER, Oklahoma.
CHARLES E. TOWN SEND, Michigan. CHARLES H. BURKE, South Dakota.
R. B. Keating, Arkansas, Secretary.
n
CONTENTS.
W. W. Scott, superintendent Crow Indian A^enev -.o^r ,o-o ^*^®"
Mrs. Helen Pierce Grev_ luuicin Agency 1815^ 1852^ jc^^
John A. Booz. cattleman I-"r~"rZ~~:""~: 1838,2010,2054,2148
R ■ r^'IZf; .^^'""^ if Pecto'r h-ri"gat"ion7fndran~5fflce::: ^ooq
w n w ' •''• ^^•,'^'^ •''I'J' ^o the commission If^l
WD. \A eekley, clerk. Indian Office- _ ^^^'^
H. ^ . Campbell, clerk. Indian Office__ ~~ _V_ SS1^
E. R. Lmiien. chief inspector, Indian OfBce on-o
Z. Lewis Dalby, attorney --- 20d2
?on Cat^'o Spn'i'V^^'^'^^"^?* c7mm-i7sion«"iMra"n Affarrsi:::::----- ''''' SJ^J
Hon. cato Sells. Commissioner Indian Affairs 17111111" ^117
m
CROW AGENCY.
JANUARY 26, 1914.
Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Ateairs,
Washington, D. C.
The commission met in its office, room 128, Senate Office Building,
at 7.30 o'clock p. m.
Present: Senators Robinson (chairman), Lane, and Townsend:
Kepresentatives Stephens and Carter.
The Chairman. The superintendent of the Crow Agency Mr
Scott, is here this evening and will testify.
STATEMENT OF W. W. SCOTT, SUPERINTENDENT CROW INDIAN
AGENCY.
(W. W. Scott, being duly sworn by the chairman, was examined
and testihed as follows:)
The Chairman. You are the superintendent of the Crow Agency?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How long have you served in that capacity, Mr.
Mr. Scott. I took charge there in 1910— July 1.
The Chairman. Wlien did you enter the Indian Service, Mr.
Scott ? '
Mr. Scott. I entered the Indian Service first about 11 years ago.
Ihe Chairman. In what capacity were you employed before vou
became the superintendent of the Crow Agency ?
Mr. Scott. I was chief of Field Division of the General Land
Umce at that time.
' J?^ Chairman. ^Vhat other positions have you held in the service «
Mi\ Scott. My first work in the Indian Service was as a clerk for
the Dawes Commission at Muskogee, Okla. Later on I was trans-
I A^^ *? *^^^ ^'^^^ Service as special agent for the General Land
I Uthce. I occupied that position— the position of Chief of Field Di-
; vision— for the same bureau seven vears. At the end of that time
I 1 was transferred to the Indian Service as superintendent at Crow
^ Agency.
! The Chairman. What is the total number of emplovees that vou
I nave at that agency, and what are their duties?
I Mr. Scott. The number varies. We have eight clerks in the -office,
I Whose duties are in connection with the office work, the handlino^ of
stock Indian moneys, etc.; the leasing and sale of Indian land, leas-
png of the tribal ranges, and the general care of the individual In-
dians.
i
1 1815
1816 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
The Chairman. Have each of those clerks special work to do, or
do they do the work generally and together ?
Mr. Scott. Each one has his specific duties.
The Chairman. Tell briefly what each one does.
Mr. Scott. The financial clerk
The Chairman. What is his name?
Mr. Scott. O. M. Boggess, who is carried as lease clerk. At this
time, however, he is taking care of the financial division nf the office.
The Chairman. Just state, in this connection, what that is.
Mr. Scott. Keeping the books; looking after the individual Indian
accounts. They have mone}'^ in the bank to their individual credit.
Mr. Boggess looks after that. He makes up the quarterly reports,
covering all financial transactions, looks after the authorities to be
secured from the office, and keeps, in short, the financial records of
the office.
The Chairman. Do you have any books of accounts kept at that
agency that he does not keep? If so, what are they, and who keeps
them?
Mr. Scott. We have property accounts.
The Chairman. He does not keep the property record, then ?
Mr. Scott. No, sir.
The Chairman. Who is your property clerk?
Mr. Scott. Harry Throssel.
The Chairman. How is that account kept?
Mr. Scott. He makes a quarterly return of all property on hand,
keeps a record of all issues and all purchases, and has general over-
sight of the Government property charged to the agency.
The Chairman. Does he keep a record of the Government prop-
erty— a ledger or just on the quarterly account? J
Mr. Scott. He keeps the ledger account. 1
The Chairman. Is that required by the department, or do you
know?
Mr. Scott. I do not know. I am inclined to think it is not.
The Chairman. How long has he been keeping that ledger account
of the property?
Mr. Scott. I can not say, sir. The system, with some modifica-
tions, was in effect when I took charge of the agency.
The Chairman. Did you change the manner of keeping the prop-,
erty account when you went there?
Mr. Scott. Not materially; no, sir.
The Chairman. Now, in addition to the financial and the property
clerk, what other clerks have you?
Mr. Scott. W. P. Squiers, who handles the leasing and sale of
land. We have now J. B. Kitch, a special examiner of inheritance,
whose duty it is to determine the heirs of deceased Indians.
The Chairman. Well, is he an employee of the office or of the
Indian Bureau proper? I mean is he employed by the agency or
employed by the Indian Bureau?
Mr. Scott. He is employed by the Indian Bureau.
The Chairman. That is what I thought.
Mr. Scott. It is only a position recently created.
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Mr. Scott. We have an assistant to the lease clerk, Mr. Shick, who
is also a stenographer. We have two Indian girls, stenographers.
That, I believe, constitutes the office force.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1817
The Chairman. That completes vour list of clerks. Do you re-
quire three stenographers to do the work there?
Mr. Scott. Those stenographers are carried as assistant clerks.
Ihe Chairman. They do other clerical work besides stenographic
work 5 ^ '-
Mr. Scott. Oh, yes, sir.
The Chairman 'You have eight clerks whom you have designated.
What other employees have you, and what is the total nunTber, if
you Imow? '
Mr Scott. We have six farmers— men whose duty it is to super-
vise the farming operations of the Indians.
The Chairman. Do they all stay at the agency?
Mr. Scott. No.
The Chairisian. Where are they located or stationed?
Mr. ScoTr The reservation is divided into six districts, each with
its farmer One farmer only is located at the agency; the others are
at difterent points over the reservation.
The Chairman. What is the total area of that reservation?
Mr. ScoTT. Oh, approximately two and a half million acres— the
dimmislied reserve.
The Chairman. Ha A-e you had six farmers there ever since vou
became superintendent ?
Ml-. ScoTT. Xo, sir: there was a time when we had only five, one
man having charge of two districts. "
The Chairman. What is the total number of Indians on that
reservation ?
Mr. ScoTT. One thousand seven hundred, in round numbers.
Ihe Chairman. What is the actual number of Indians on the res-
ervation engaged m cultivating the soil— about «
^ Mr. Scott. All of the able-bodied Indians are engaged in cultivat-
"^§^1 /^*^ ' ^°"^^ *^ ^ greater, some to a less extent.
Ihe Chairman. Do you mean to say they are all actually farmers?
Mr. Scott. Xo, sir; I do not mean to say that. There ^re a good
many of them who do not farm, but all have their allotments and all
rarm m so far as we can get them to do so.
The Chairman. What is the total area of cultivated land on the
reservation ?
Mr. Scott. The total area cultivated last year was about 12,000
acres; that includes the hay land.
The Chairman. What part of the land is in hay?
Mr. Scott. Probably half of that area.
The Chairman There are, then, about 6,000 acres in cultivation of
other crops than hay ?
Mr. Scott. Approximately that; the cultivation of hay consists
merely in irrigating it and cutting the hay.
The Chairman. Wild grass, is it«
Mr. Scott. Wild hay ; yes.
The Chairman. And requires no cultivation whatever?
Mr. Scott. No.
The Chairman. Then you have one farmer to about 1,000 acres of
cultivated land, each farmer supervising on the average about that
number oi acres (
Mr. Scott. That was last year.
The Chairman. Yes.
1818 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. •
Mr. Scott. You understand that the area cultivated varies each
year. We get each year a repoi-t ; we tabulate a statement.
Tlie Chairman. Was it less last year than for the year 1912, or
greater ?
Mr. Scott. It was about the same.
The Chairman, And what was the comparative amount culti-
vated for 1911?
Mr. Scott. The year 1911 was — I can not say exactly how much
was cultivated that year.
The Chairman. Do you think it was more or less than was culti-
vated last year?
Mr. Scott. It was — all practically the same ; there would not be a
great difference.
The Chairman. What do j^ou think would be the area cultivated
this year, if you have any means of knowing?
Mr. Scott. I think the area would be less this year than any year.
The Chairman. So that with six farmers, men whose duties it is
to instruct and give demonstrations on farming on that agency, the
actual area of cultivated land is diminishing each year under your
administration. How do you account for that?
Mr. Scott. No, sir; I think that is not the case.
The Chairman. Then you just said so.
Mr. Scott. There was a time some years ago when the Indians
raised more grain than they do now. At that time they lived in
villages and worked the community farms. They all worked to-
gether, and in that way you can get more work done than where each
Indian is supposed to work his own allotmi-nt.
The Chairman. Well, I did not ask you anything about that. I
asked you about the area of lands actually cultivated on tlie reserva-
tion. It is a fact that you expect a less aiea will be cultivated this
year than any year since you have been there?
Mr. Scott. I think so.
The Chairman. Now, tell me just exactly what those farmers do — ■
those six men.
Mr. Scott. They put in their time looking after the Indians, doing
what they can to get them to farm, instructing them, keeping their
machinery in order, and in addition to that they appraise land that
is offered for sale.
The Chairman. "Wliat salaries are paid the farmers?
Mr. ScoiT. $720 is the usual salary; one or two of them get $900.
The Chairman. So, I suppose the amount actually paid them ap-
proximates $5,000 for the six farmers — between $1,000 and S5,000 a
year. What efforts do they make to encourage the Indians to pur-
sue agriculture?
Mr. Scott. They go around to each individual Indian, urge him to
work, lay out generally the land that he should cultivate, advise him
as to what crops he should put them in. When I say " put them in,"
and how it shall be done, w^e have found the most effective means of
handling that is to have the farmer go and measure off the amount
of ground that he thinks the Indian can cultivate with his equip-
ment. We tell the Indian to plow that much land, and in that way
we have been able to get more land under cultivation than when it is
merelv left to the Indian himself to determine how much land.
i
CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1819
The CnAiiniAN. How long has that been in progress?
Mr, Scott. Two years.
The Chairman. But you liave not been able to get more cultivated
than was cultivated under the community process?
Mr. Scott. No; we have not been able to raise more grain. I
think, if you will permit me, that more land is cultivated, but it is
not as well cultivated. Under the community system the farmer
stayed right with them, got a number of Indians to work, and stayed
right with them all day and watched the plowing. As it is now, he
can not do it; he must go from one Indian to another, from one
farm to another, and start the Indian in, and then leave him to his
own devices.
The Chairman. What is the relation existing between the In-
dians generally and these farmers? What is the feeling between
them?
Mr. Scott. In some cases it is very cordial, and in others it is
not. Generally speaking, I believe, the feeling is quite cordial. I
know of only one farmer who is somewhat impopular with the
Indians.
The Chairman. How do you explain the fact that the area is
growing less, aside from the explanation you have already given,
instead of increasing, if these six farmers aVe working diligently to
try to induce the Indians to farm and if the Indians appreciate their
services ?
Mr. Scott. I do not admit that, on the whole, that the area is
growing less; on the contrary, I think that it is growing greater;
there may be an off year.
The Chairman. You said it would be less this vear than it was
last year, did you not?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
The Chairman. And you have said, in answer to my questions,
a while ago, when asking especially as to the vears 191 i, 1912, and
1913, it was ap]jroximately the same — 6,000 acres?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
The Chair3[an. Why?
Mr. Scott. Because certain influences have induced the Indians to
drop their farm work.
The Chair^ian. What influences do you refer to?
Mr. Scott. Mrs. (jrey's influence.
The Chair^ian. You think Mrs. Grey's influence has caused the
Indians to quit farming?
Mr. Scott. I know it.
The CiiAiRJiAN. They were not farming very much before Mrs.
Grey was there?
Mr. Scott. Very much more than thev are now.
The Chairman. I do not suppose, as'^a matter of fact, Mr. Scott,
there is any farming going on there now?
Mr. Scott. They have been doing absolutely nothing this fall.
The Chair:man. Has there been any public work going on on the
reservation?
]Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What kind of work?
Mr. Scott. Irrigation work, work on the irrigation system.
The Chairman. Do you employ the Indians on that\vork?
1820 CROW INDIAN RESEKVATION.
Mr. ScoTi'. We employ all we can get ; yes, sir.
The Chairmax. Is it a fact that you refused to employ Indians?
Mr. Scott, It is not.
The Chairman. And employed only white men?
Mr. Scott. On the contrary, we have used every effort to induce
the Indians to work.
The CHAiRisrAN. How many Indians have 3^011 employed there now?
Mr. Scott. I do not know the exact number. There are two or
three small gangs working on a fence that is being constructed.
The Chairman. Who has control of that?
Mr. Scott. Mr. J. E. Jenkins.
The Chairiman. Is he one of the farmers?
Mr. Scott. No ; he is live-stock inspector.
The Chairman. Two or three small gangs?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
The Chairman. Do j^ou know anything about how many are
employed ?
Mr. Scott. They emplo}^ — each gang has probably six or eight
men. Then there are — when I came away, about 10 days ago, there
were five or six Indians working on a dam that was being con-
structed at the agency.
The CiiAiRJiAN. Do jou laiow how many white people arc em-
ployed on the fence and on the dam ?
Mr. Scott. There are no white people employed practically — prob-
ablv three or four — on the fence, and probably 30 or 35 on the dam.
The Chairman. Well, now, of course Mrs. Grey did not have any-
thing to do with the area of land that was cultivated for 1913, did
she. because that was done before she went there?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And with all your six farmers you did not in-
crease the area that was cultivated in 1911 and 1912, according to
your statement a while ago. which was that the best you were doing
was holding your own in that particular. What did she do to stop
them from working; how did she stop them?
Mr. Scott. I do not l^now what she did; I only Imow that after
the councils that she held with the Indians they absolutely refused
to work. We could not get one of them to go on the fence w^ork.
The CiiATRJiAN. How many did you have working prior to that,
and who were they?
Mr. Scott. I do not Iniow.
The CHAiR:\rAN. Who was it quit work or refused to work that
had been willino- to work or had been working before on account of
Mrs. Grey being there?
Mr. Scott. I can not give the names; I do not Icnow.
The Ctiair:man. How did you learn that that was the reason that
they had refused to work?
Mr. Scott. The information came to me from Mr. Jenkins and
from various Indians.
The Chairman. You did not know of 3-our own knowledge, only
what was told you, I suppose, about that?
Mr. Scott. I do not know personally.
Senator Lane. Were you out on the line when they were building
the fence?
Mr. Scott. Was I there ?
Senator Lane. Yes. 1
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1821
Mr. Scott. Yes; I have been out there.
Senator Lane. Since or before they quit?
Mr. Scott. No.
Senator Lane. Neither ?
Mr. Scott. They did not quit; we were iu^t QfnrHt.o- fi. ^
that time, and we'conld not get U,em to go' o V„ri''fknow S 1
am mfonned tl,at Mrs. Grey brought an"attorney n to co7sul wUh
the Indians as to how they could prevent the fLce being built I
Wid to tt Ihe t "'' '"r' *';"' ^''^ T'^"' '" ™^ o* thoTfam s and
states thafsome of hi f' 'Vf''. ''"'*' ,""'^ ^ ''^"'^™ 'hat nffidarit
rr^ A ^* *"^ ^^^^^' ^id stop work.
The Chair^tan. What fence was that, Mr. Scott?
Mr. Scott. What fence ?
The Chaiioian. Yes.
calf ' Etnge^No-T'' " ^"'''' '^''' '' ^'^"^ constructed aci-oss what we
(The CnAiR.ArAN. What is that being built for
^ Mr. Scott. I mean what we call the " ID Ran^e "
1 he Chairman. How long is it ?
Mr. Scott. The fence is 34^ miles long.
Ihe Chair^ian. For what purpose is it being built?
Mr. Scott. To segregate the land on which it is proposed to run
the Inchan cattle from that leased to F. M. Heinrich
I suppos^r'"''*''^'' ^""^ "'" ^''"^'^"'^" ^^'"^ ^'^"^ ''''^^' ^^'^ I^di'-^n f^»^d,
Mr. Scott. From the proceeds of the sale of Crow ceded lands
The Chairman. Still, it belongs to the Indians ?
Mr. Scott, i es, sir.
The Chairman. The Indians were then building the fence Did
they want the fence and did you consult them about it^
Mr. Scott. They were not consulted; no, further than
Ihe Chairman. The treaty under which the Government chose
that reservation requires that those acts shall be approved by the
Indians in their council before it shall be done, does it not «
Mr. Scott. A treaty of 1904 set aside the sum of $40,000, or as
much of It as might be necessary, for fencing the reservation and
ZCt^^^ ^^ ^""^ '" *^'* *^'' *'"'' ^' ^''''^ constructed under thai
n Iurt£'^T^''^''' ^ir '' ''''^ ^^-'''^"^ ^^'^ reservation; this is putting
J^n \'T ^""^ ^'' i-eservation. You would not construe an in
stiuction to fence the reservation to be a fence siniplv to cut the
reservation in two. would you-is that vour construction ?
Mr Scott. I would not understand it that way, no; at the same
time I presume that building any necessary fences on the reservation
might be construed as " fencing the reservation."
l«3.^/fiF?^'"'^'^'''' '^^"! ^f''"^®, ^^ ^^^"^ constructed to segregate the
Cf ^'^ ??" ^''-T^'^ *^^"^ *^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ™ ^iieir cattle oni^-om the
lands that Hemrich runs his cattle on ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
^.Ilf wi:'?''''''- }^^'^^ ^^'"'^^ y^" *« d^^^^e tl^^t tl^^t was neces-
Z c '^^ consideration prompted the building of that fence?
Mr. Scott. Mr. Heinrich has under lease or permit at the present
time ^^dIat IS known as the "ID Range." It is the lands lyinfbe-
tween the Big Horn and the Little Big Horn River. Under his con-
1822 CROW INDIAN EESERVATION.
tract he was to relinquish, when called upon to do so, any part of
that range that might be needed by the Indians. It was determined
last fall to buy a large number of cattle for the Indians. The Sec-
retary of the Interior and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, in
pursuance of that plan, appointed a commission to go to the Crow
reservation and formulate plans for cari-ying out that enterprise.
They came there and went over the reservation thoroughly, and
formulated a ])lan, drew up their rej)ort, which was adopted, and
the building of the fence was a part of that plan.
The Chairman. Who composed that commission, if you loiow?
Mr. Scott. Col. Long, of Cleburne, Tex., an old cattle man, a man
who had had experience in cattle both in Texas and in Montana ; Dr.
Tracy, from the Bureau of Animal Industry; John Goodale, stock
supervisor at large, Indian Service; James E. Jenkins, live-stock
inspector, Crow Agency; and Richard Wallace, a Crow Indian.
Senator Lane. AVere the Indians called into council about it at
that time, when they were there?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. "Wliat is the Heinrich lease, of a definite area, or
how do you determine what he is entitled to ?
Mr. Scott. Yes — his lease is described by metes and bounds.
The Chairman. Does this fence cut off any of the land that he was
entitled to in his lease ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What area?
Mr. Scott. Something over half of it.
The CHAiR]\rAN. Cut the lands that were leased to him. Why was
that done?
Mr. Scott. Because it was thought by these gentlemen that the
land cut off for the use of the Indian cattle would be ample for their
use.
The Chairman. Ample for whose use?
Mr. Scott. For the use of the Indians.
The Chairman. I asked why, after a contract had been made with
Heinrich, was his area diminished by one-half ?
Mr. Scott. Under the terms of his contract
The Chairman. Oh, I understand that they have the power to take
as much lands as may be needed for the Indians, but did it con-
template they might take all of it if they desired to do it?
Mr. Scott. Yes; certainly.
The Chairman. And still collect the rent from liim ?
Mr. Scott. No.
The Chairman. Does he pay the same rent as he would if he had
the whole area?
Mr. Scott. No, sir.
The Chairman. How do you determine what rent he pays ?
Mr. Scott. He is to pa}^ rental on the entire tract up to the 1st of
February; after that the rental that he is to pay is to be adjusted.
The Chair:man. Who is going to adjust it — who has the power to
adjust it, you?
Mr. Scott. No, sir; that will be done by an Indian officer.
The Chairman. Did he consent, or do you know whether he con-
sented ?
CROW INDIAN EESEKVATION. 1823
Mr. Scott. He consented; yes; as he was obliged to do under the
terms of his contract. He was quite willing to do it, I think.
The Chairman. Does he run cattle there or does he run sheep.?
Mr. Scott. Nothing but cattle.
The Chairman. How man}^ cattle does his contract permit him to
run on that range?
Mr. Scott. I am unable to say from memory.
The Chairman. Well, you specify an average, do you not, under
that contract ?
Mr. Scott. He pays for an average; yes, sir.
The Chairman. I will ask you if it is a fact that sometimes he has
more than three times as manj^ cattle as the average ?
Mr. Scott. I think not.
The Chairman. I will ask you if it is not a fact that a large part
of the year the range is valueless?
Mr. Scott. Valueless?
The Chairman. There is no grazing there now, is there ?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
The Chairjian. Good grass there now ?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
The Chairman. Throughout the entire year?
Mr. Scott. Certainly.
The Chairman. Is it a pretty cold climate?
Mr. Scott. May I explain?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Scott. The grass in that country dries up — cures on the
ground — and it is just as good as if cut and put in the stack.
The Chairman. So that the range is just as good one month as an-
other?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What kind of grass is that, Mr. Scott?
Mr. Scott. We call it wild hay. I do not know what it is properly
called. The grass on the upland ranges is much more valuable than
that in the valleys.
Senator Lane. Why, Mr. Scott, do you not know what kind of
grass it is?
Mr. Scott. It is a species of buffalo grass.
Senator Lane. It is not wild rye?
Mr. Scott. Oh, no, sir.
Senator Lane. Nor bunch ?
Mr. Scott. No.
Senator Lane. Nor grama ?
Mr. Scott. No ; it is buffalo grass, I would call it.
Representative Carter. Mesquite?
Mr. Scott. No.
Representative Carter. It is not red top ?
Mr. Scott. I would like to say that there is a part of the range
that is not available during the winter on account of snow; that is
up in the mountains.
The Chairman. How much of it, would you say?
Mr. Scott. Oh, possibly one-fourth or less.
The Chairman. Is that on the Indian side of the fence or on Hein-
rich's side ?
Mr. Scott. It is on Heinrich's side of the fence.
1824 CROW INDIAN EESERVATION.
The Chairman. He gets all of the range land that is not available
in the winter ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Have Eae Bros, a lease there?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman, What area have they and what is their range?
Mr. Scott. They have what we call " Range No. 3," which is west
of the Big Horn Eiver. It is very much the same kind of country
as the land reserved for the Indians on the Idea range ?
The Chairman. What about the area of the other range?
Mr. Scott. About 400,000 acres.
The Chairman. All of these leases on Crow Reservation have the
average clause in them, permitting a certain number as an average
number ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That permits the lessee to run under the average
number of cattle this month and twice as many as the average next
month if he wants to ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I will ask you if under that clause it has come to
your knowledge that the lessees have run four or five times as many
sheep some months as the average number of sheep authorized in the
lease ?
Mr. Scott. I think not.
The Chairman. Have you ever looked into that; has it ever been
called to your attention ?
Mr. Scott. I have; yes, sir. We require affidavits of the number
of head run. Then, in their own interest, they could not possibly
afford to overstock the range like that. These people must have a
range on which to throw all new stock that they bring in to run after
shipping stock out. A lessee will ship out very closely ; in fact, there
is not a sheep on range No. 3 to-day, but it will shortly have filled up.
The Chairman. Yes ; and he will put a great many more than the
average number on there, will he not?
Mr. Scott. He can under his lease.
The Chairman. Yes; and he does do it. Do you not know that
he does?
Mr. Scott. I do not know it.
The Chairsian. You say the only way you find out about how
many sheep or cattle are running there is the affidavits filed by the
stockmen themselves ?
Mr. Scott. No; that is not the only way. We have our stockmen;
we have a superintendent of live stock, who is traveling on the range
practically all the time, and among his duties is that of keeping tab
of the cattle on the range and the sheep on the range. Every time
that a carload of stock is brought onto the range we have a report
from the lessee on whose range it goes; whenever a shi]iment is
made, we have a record of that. The cattlemen notify us when they
expect to receive or ship cattle, and we have our stock superintendent
to meet that shipment, and inspect the cattle that go out; keep a
record of the Indian stock tliat are shipped, and the new stock
brought in, and cattle shipped to market belonging to the
The Chairtman, Has it ever been called to your attention by the
Indians on that reservation, and is it not a fact, that great trouble
CROW INDIAN EESEBVATION. ig25
has arisen there, and serious pln«Vinc o«^ ,-^ *i
«nd by subletting t^othe partifs fnrl w^-»""'> ^"'"^ on there
ti.es . .an, cattle on i^'S ^ i::^':^^:^ X:^^^
S™^i^-^^ ----»-' He^Heb, a^
The CHAirniAN. All right, tell us that.
an^li^Seml'a^i^i:^^^^^:::^^^ brings them in ther.
have noticed the brands ndfLov the ^h^^^ ""'7' "^r^,*"^^^'
thing to the contrary. ^ ^^ ^^ indicate any-
di.Ss'is*^goodJs it?^''' ^''"°^' *'''^"' '^^''™^" I^«"ri»h -d the In-
Mr. Scott. No; it is not.
^^=ytfJ^-:j^,X!-^ HeinHeh .as
bittelyop,»secUoHein"i;h^''"'"'«" ''^"^ "* ""- Indians are
The Chairman. Why«
more. ''''^ ""^ *^'^ ^^^^^^r leases— a great many
Senator Townsexd. Indian employees?
Mr. Scott. No sir; Indians themselves.
mT Scott ""ti ^ ^'..T^ " '''^ P^i^^>^«"« district, I suppose
InLte/of Indans SrHei^./^'"S""^ T'^™^^^ " «'T large
t^T/th;ei\"isk^r^^^^^^
Igained uJ.! i^f.^^^. ^!;;|.'iSf .""n'^aT Clf ™^' ' """''' ''^
1 ine Chairman. Sir?
Mr. Scott. Heinrich'is not a diplomat.
Ig26 CEOW INDIAN EESEKVATION.
Senator Townsend. May I ask a question, to get it clear in my
head? You say there are more Indians on his lease. Does he lease
the land that has been allotted to the Indians?
Mr. Scott. The unfenced grazing land is mcluded in his range.
Senator Town send. Even that which has been allotted to the
Indians ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir. ^ -,..•, i i i q
Senator Townsend. So his lease is not confined to tribal lands?
Mr Scott. Not entirely ; much the greater part of it is tribal land.
The small tracts of land that have been allotted to Indians as their
grazing allotment, as it is called, constitute a very small part of the
range as a whole.
Senator Townsend. You would not expect those Indians to engage
in much farming if the Government leased their land to Hemrich?
Mr Scott. Their farming land is not leased, Senator. The farm-
ing lands lie down in the valley. Under the law each Indian allot-
ment is to consist of as nearly as maybe half and halt irrigable
agricultural land and dry upland— grazing land.
'Senator Townsend. But they live on this grazing land?
IVTv Scott N^o sir.
Senator Townsend. I thought you said they lived on this land
that was leased to Heinrich ? , ,, . ■^^. ^
Mr Scott. No, sir. Their grazing land and their agricultural
lands are both within the boundaries of the lease, but the larming
lands are practically all fenced and so are not subject to lease at ail.
Senator TowNSE>D. Were tliose particular Indians consulted whose
allotments had been leased to Heinrich?
Mr Scott. The tribe was consulted as a whole.
Senator Townsend. But those particular Indians were not ?
Mr Scott There was no individual consultation or consent given.
Representative Carter. Senator, let me ask some questions?
The Chairman. Yes. ■ 4. f u^^f
Representative Carter. You say their allotments consist of halt
irrigable and half grazing land ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir. , .
Representative Carter. You do not mean they get as much ir-
rigable land as they do grazing land, do you?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir. . , ^ , 1 i -1 4-9
Rei)resentative Carter. How much irrigable land do they get'
Mr. Scott. Under the law under which the first allotments were
made, each head of a family got 320.
Representative Carter. Of irrigable land^ ,-
Mr Scott No, sir. One-half to be irrigable land and one-half
to be 'grazing land. Later on it was provided that each "Vliyidual
should get 160 acres of land, 80 acres of which should be irrigable
and 80 acres of which should be grazing land and that is a perma-
nent arrangement, although the irrigable land is all taken now
Senator Lane. Does Heinrich have any trouble with the Indians
on account of his stock breaking through into their crops, mside of
iheir fences?
Mr. Scott. Occasionally ; yes, sir. .^ ^o
Senator Lane. That makes bad feeling, does it not?
Mr. Scott. Oh, yes.
fl
CROW INDIAIST EESEEVATION. 1827
Senator Lane. In relation to these lands, how much per acre does
he pay for lands for grazing purposes, do you know ?
Mr. Scott. All of those leases are dilt'erent.
Senator Lane. I was referring to Heinrich.
Mr. Scott. And I am unable to recall the terms.
Senator Lane. About? You would have an idea of about what
the average rate he pays per acre for his leased lands, and all the
others ?
Mr. Scott. I can give you the information, sir, but I would rather
not attempt to say.
Senator Lane. Can you not tell approximately how much he pays
an acre for the land? What would you consider a fair price?
Mr. Scott. I do ; yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Could thej^ get more for their lands? Have these
Indians who have these allotments made leases to other persons?
Mr. Scott. The individual Indian who happens to have allotments
along the streams could get moi'e; yes, sir.
Senator Lane, And that makes for bad feeling, does it?
Mr. Scott. If we wore to allow the Indians to lease their allot-
ments in groups, as they would like to do, to outside stockmen, the
water of the reservation would be immediately fenced up and the
large range would necessarily have to be abandoned.
Senator Lane. I see; that would be the reason Avhy they have to
have access to water? The water, as I understand it, is not on the
grazing lands, but the streams are on what is irrigible land?
Mr. ^:oTT. It runs through all parts of the grazing land.
Senator Lane. There are large parts of that land where there is
no water?
Mr. Scott. The princi]3al streams are the Big Horn Eiver; and
smaller streams, you readily understand, flow into these two rivers.
Senator Lane. These people who have been allotted land along
the stream, have they acquired allotments to all of the lands along
all of the streams so they could not get water?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. So Heinrich has to use allotted land in order to
utilize his range; is that true?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir; that is true. Very often, if vou Avill allow
me to explain, a family or a group of Indians are allotted along a
small stream, taking that stream for miles. It frequently happens
that a stockman comes in from the outside — and they are always
anxious for any opportunity or excuse of getting their cattle on the
reservation — come in there and go to these Indians and say they
will give them so much — give them a certain sum of money for the
use of their land and that of their relatives for a certain length of
time. The Indians naturally want to get what they can personally,
and they would like to do that. The stockman would like to run a
fence around the entire group, naturally shutting off the Avater; and,
as I say, if that were alloAved Ave Avould liaA^e to abandon the large
ranges.
Senator Lane. And you think it is more profitable to the Indians
to operate the Avay you do?
Mr. Scott. Unquestionably.
Senator Lane.. And you do not knoAv how much per acre you get
for the land under this rate^
35G01— PT 15—14 2
1828 CROW INDIAN EESEEVATION.
Mr. Scott. I would rather not say, sir. I am not certain about
the amount.
Senator Lane. Do 3'ou get a dollar an acre or half a dollar an
acre ?
Mr. Scott, Oh, no. r,
Senator Lane. Not as much as that — a few cents an acre?
Mr. Scott. I will furnish you wdth the information. I would
rather not make a guess.
Senator Lane. This lease to Heinrich, as I understand it, is a
permit ?
Mr. Scott. It is a permit; yes, sir.
Senator Lane. How long does it run?
Mr. Scott. Three years.
Senator Lane. When did that term begin?
Mr. Scott. It began a year ago the 1st of February.
Senator Lane. You are building a fence and fencing Heinrich out
and the Indians in, is that right?
Mr. Scott. Rather vice versa.
Senator Lane. Fencing them away from one another?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. You say the fence is about 35 miles long?
Mr. Scott. Thirty-four and one-half miles long.
Senator Lane. What will it cost?
Mr. Scott. Between $11,000 and $12,000.
Senator Lane. Then you do contemplate leasing those lands out
or giving permanent permits to them, as a permanent proposition,
or else you would not put up a fence for a few years.
Mr. Scott. I presume, of course, the upper portion of the range
will be leased until such time as the Indians may require it for their
own use.
Senator Lane. In putting this fence across the reserve, that is
done to keep Heinrich's cattle from getting in onto the Indians or
the Indians' cattle from getting out onto Heinrich ?
Mr. Scott. Both ; to keep the cattle from mixing and to keep the
cattle owned by the Indians from drifting. Some of the Indians are
above the fence and some are below it. All have more or less stock
that they would naturally desire to keep near home, and this fence
prevents them drifting.
Senator Lane. Have the Indians many cattle ?
Mr. Scott. Not a great many.
Senator Lane. How many would you suppose, on the average, per
family ?
Mr. Scott. They have 1,400 to 1,500 head altogether.
Senator Lane. All told? m
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir. "^
Senator Lane. How do you estimate the number that Heinrich has
on his land?
Mr. Scott. Heinrich runs practically 2,000 head, approximately.
Senator Lane. Then it would be more to Heinrich's advantage to
have his cattle drifting in on the Indians than it would be for the
Indians to have their cattle drift out on Heinrich ?
Mr. Scott. It is proposed to put a herd of some 9,000 or 10,000
head belonging to the Indians on their portion of this range in the
spring.
CKOW INDIAN EESEEVATION. 1829
Senator Lane. If they got out onto Heinrich's land, they would
eat .his grass, and that would damage him ?
_ Mr. Scott. Naturally they would eat his grass if they got on his
side of the fence.
Senator Lane. What I was trying to get at is that the fence will
be as much benefit to Heinrich as it is to the Indians; is that not
true '(
Mr. Scott. Yes; I think so.
Senator Lane. Does he pay anything toward the building of it?
Mr. Scott. No, sir.
Senator Lane. The Indians are paying for that? Then they are
paying somewhat for the protection of Heinrich's range ?
Mr. Scott. Yes; it might be put in that way or it might be said
that they are paying for the fencing in of their own range.
Senator Town send. This is all on Indian property, is it not, any-
way?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. The line on which you place that fence was arbi-
trary and not a defined boundary, was it not?
Mr. Scott. It was run out a line along the legal subdivision; it
runs along the township lines, between two townships, the greater
part of the way.
Senator Lane, Is it a straight line or does it meander?
Mr. Scott. It is a straight line the greater part of the way; to-
ward the eastern end it dips to the south, like that [illustrating].
Senator Lane. How far?
Mr. Scott. For a mile or two.
Senator Lane. Why does it do that?
Mr. Scott. Then it runs like that [illustrating].
Senator Lane. Why does it make those jogs?
Mr. Scott. To take in water for the Indian side of the range.
There are streams running down here.
Senator Lane. Where does the water rise, on the Heinrich side of
the fence or on the Indian side of the fence, and where does it run
with reference to the fence?
Mr. Scott. On the Heinrich side.
Senator Lane. He has the head of the water courses?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Well, I have understood the Indiansto make some
complaint about that, too, and they are not satisfied with that. You
have heard that, have you not?
Mr. Scott. No; I have not.
Senator Lane. You can understand how it would be if somebody
got upstream on your water rights?
Mr. Scott. Well, you understand that those streams rise in the
hills.
Senator Lane. Yes; I suppose so.
Mr. Scott. Naturally the head is much less important than lower
down. As a stream flows, it grows larger. We could not take in
all of it; we could not go up and head those little streams, but we did
go down and take in as much of the streams — take in water enough
to water this range. Over here for instance [indicating] we have
the Big Horn River, and an irrigation ditch; and over here, for
instance [indicating], we have the Little Bighorn River.
1830 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Senator Lane. What is there between the two points — is this east
and that west and that north and that south?
Mr. Scott. That is east [indicatino-].
Senator Lane. You fenced from one fixed point to another fixed
point, but what keeps the cattle from getting around into that area —
the fence begins nowhere and ends nowhere, does it?
Mr. Scott. It goes over here to the raih^oad [indicating].
Senator Lane. To the raih'oad track?
Mr. Scott. To the railroad fence.
Senator Lane. It joins that?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Senator Lane. What is over here [indicating] ?
Mr. Scott. Over here it joins the settlement fences; in fact, it runs
up to Avhat we call the " Black Canyon," a deep gorge that runs along
there [indicating], and that forms a natural barrier there.
The Chair:n[an. Does Heinrich own any private land in there?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How much?
Mr. Scott. Oh, several thousand acres; I do not know how much.
The Chatriman. Where is that with reference to some of this land?
Mr. Scott. Heinrich's land is south of the fence.
The Chairman. Does it touch Heinrich's land?
Mr. Scott. No, sir.
The Chairman. Is it or is it not on the Indians' side?
Mr. Scott. No.
The Chairman. It is on the Heinrich side?
Mr. Scott. Heinrich's private holdings — the bidk of them are on
the range, but he has to retain
The Chairman. So you are actually fencing a part of Heinrich's
private land there, are you?
Mr. Scott. The fence does not touch his land, as I understand.
The Chairman. It does not make any difference. You are shut-
ting his land up from the Indians' land and giving him a fence for
his private lands, so far as the Indians' land is concerned, in addi-
tion to fencing his lease for him.
Mr. Scott. Heinrich's land is not in a body ; it lies in small tracts.
The Chairman. But it is all embraced within the range that he
is using in conjunction with the Indians' lands.
Mr. Scott. Not all of it. He has some on both sides. The bulk
of it, I believe, lies south.
The Chairman. That is his side?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You say that fence will cost about $10,000?
Mr. Scott. Something more than that.
The Chairjnian. What kind of a fence are you building, Mr. Scott?
Mr. Scott. Building a fence micler the specifications laid down in
the treaty to which I referred a moment ago.
The Chairman. Yes; but what sort of a fence is it?
Mr. Scott. It is a wire fence, cedar posts, set 30 inches in the
ground; the posts are 8 feet long: it has six wires, and there are two
metallic wire stays between each two posts.
The Chairman. How wide are the posts apart?
Mr. Scott. Sixteen feet.
The Chairman. That is a little over $300 a mile, if I understand
you; $10,000.
CROW INDIAN RESEEVATION. 1831
Mr. Scott. We never figured the cost per mile. Allow me to say
that a part of that fence is built over a very rough country; for quite
a distance the post holes had to be blasted in the rocks, and at other
places we had to cross deep canyons, and the fence there has to be
swung below, and it was expensive to haul the material out there.
Senator Laxe. Under the agreement made with Heinrich or these
other lessees are they allowed to sublease?
Mr. Scott. There is nothing in the contract to prevent it.
Senator Lake. Nothing to prevent it?
Mr. Scott. No.
Senator Laxe. You allow them to do as they please about it ?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Senator Lane. And does Heinrich sublet?
]\Ir. Scott, No, sir.
Senator Lane. Do any of them?
Mr. Scott. Some of them do.
Senator Lane. Is the length of their leases the same as Heinrich 's?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. All of them are coterminous?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir; though there is one lease that expires the
first of the coming February.
Senator Lane. How do you ascertain the rate of terms — do you
receive bids for these ranges upon free and public bids?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. You advertise?
Mr. Scott. We advirtise.
Senator Lane. Do you get a large number of bids, and did you
get a large number this last time?
Mr. Scott. No. We get, in some cases, probably two or three or
four bids for one range, and for other ranges, possibly, one or two.
The last leasing Heinrich's bid was the only one received for his
range.
Senator Lane. Do you know what "collusive" bidding is?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Is there anj'' of that kind of bidding?
Mr. Scott. Not to my knowledge.
Senator Lane. Is there anything which looks like " straw "
bidding?
Mr. Scott. No, sir.
Senator Lane. Now, then, after settling the matter in your own
mind, you have to pass upon the bids, do you not?
Mr. Scott. No, sir.
Senator Lane. Who does ?
Mr. Scott. That is passed upon by the Commissioner of Indian
Affairs.
Senator Lane. Where does he receive information as to whether
it is advisable, to lease at the price offered — from you?
Mr. Scott. We submit the bids when received, with our recom-
mendations.
Senator Lane. You recommend?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir
Senator Lane. The commissioner really depends upon you for
his information?
Mr. Scott. He depends upon me.
1832 CROW INDIAN EESERVATION.
Senator Lane. When a man submits a bid for one of your dis-
tricts numbered one or two Dr three or four, something of that sort ?
Mr. Scott. They are numbered on the leases.
Senator Lane. How much was Heinrich's bid the last time?
Mr. Scott. I say I am unable to tell just what it was.
Senator Lane. You are unable to tell the total amount?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Senator Lane. How much was anybody else's?
Mr. Scott. I remember range No. 4. The bid was $! 0,100.
Senator Lane. How many acres was there in that?
Mr. Scott. Approximately 400,000; the next highest bid for that
range was $25,000.
Senator Lane. Was that from a new man or one who had it
before ?
Mr. Scott. A new man.
Senator Lane. The successful bidder was a man who had had it
before, or was he a new man ?
Mr. Scott. Yes ; he had
Senator Lane. He was holding the lease at the time?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. How long had he held that lease and what lease
was it?
Mr. Scott. That is lease No. 4; he was running sheep there, as an
employee of the man who held it prior to my time.
Senator Lane. He w^as familiar with the situation ?
Mr. Scott. Shortly after I went there he bought o& the lessee, and
then when the range came up for lease again he bid on it in his own
name.
Senator Lane. What I want to find out is how you ascertain
whether the man who oil'ers you $40,100 is paying you about what
the land is worth, or whether he is not paying you enough or paying
you too much. How do you find out about that ?
Mr. Scott. There is some evidence he was paying too much, from
the fact that he has recently gone broke on the proposition.
Senator Lane. That was the only evidence you had, was it?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Senator Lane. That was the only reason you had to believe he was
paying too much — was because he had gone broke on it?
Mr. Scott. No. In comparing what he proposed to pay with what
others did on the same range.
Senator Lane. You do not loiow the value of the range yourself;
you depend upon these bids ?
Mr. Scott. I consider the value of what it will bring in the open
market. It might be remembered that these men that have the range
stock have quite a large amount of money invested there; for in-
stance, this man had two shearing plants. I am unable to say what
they cost, but they are expensive plants. He had the. range stocked,
and was almost oliliged to have it to prevent serious loss.
Senator Lane. In Heinrich's case, how many bid against him ; no
one?
Mr. Scott. There was none.
Senator Lane. Did he bid more than last year or the same as under
his former lease?
Mr. Scott. He bid more than formerly.
CEOW INDIAN RESEEVATION. 1833
Senator Lane. How did you ascertain whether that was the right
price ? What induced you to recommend it ; what was the reason that
he bid the right price ?
Mr. Scott. I had no means of knowing what the lease was worth,
other than what it would bring. The leasing was widely advertised
in several of the principal cities and in the stock journals, so that
it was ver}^ generally understood among the stockmen.
Senator Lane. Then you are handling the leasing, as I understand
it, on a number of hundred thousand acres of land or a million acres
of land ?
Mr. Scott. Something like that.
Senator Lane. For grazing purposes?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Senator Lane. Part of it cattle and part of it sheep ?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Senator Lane. Is there not some established rate at which those
lands may be leased, about an average run throughout the country,
and are not those figures obtainable ?
Mr. Scott. Oh, yes. We are getting more, lunderstand, than is
being paid on any other reservation, except one— more per head.
Senator Lane. As much as they do for lands under the Forest Re-
serve, do you suppose?
Mr. Scott. A great deal more than that.
Senator Lane. More than they do under the Forest Reserve?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Then you really think you are getting a high rate
for your land?
Mr. Scott. I believe that we are getting all that the stockmen can
afford to pay, from the fact that they say they will give it up before
they Avill pa}^ any more.
Senator Lane. Well, would you be surprised if you were to learn
you were getting very much less?
Mr. Scott. Than it is worth?
Senator Lane. Than the average price that the Government is
getting for other land of that nature throughout the country?
Mr. Scott. I would be; yes. My information on that point came
from an inspector of the department who was there sometime ago.
I never made a comparison of it myself, and had no opportunity to
know what other ranges were bringing.
The Chairman. Mr. Scott, do you know the Rae Bros.?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. They are running sheep on one of the ranges there,
are they?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir; No. 3.
The Chairman. Their average number is 50,000 that they are per-
mitted to run, is it not ?
Mr. Scott. The general rule in force out there is 30 acres to one
head of large stock and five head of sheep is supposed to equal a cow
or steer.
Representative Stephens. Six acres to each sheep, according to
that?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is the average number they are permitted to run
specified in their lease or permit?
1834 CROW INDIAN EESERVATION.
Mr. Scott. No. The minimum number for which they are to pay
is specified, so that no matter whether they have their minimum or
whether they have none at all, they are to pay a certain minimum
rate.
The Chairman. Do you know whether or not it is a fact that Rae
Bros, during the last season or the season preceding instead of
running 50,000 head ran from 100,000 to 125,000 head of sheep on
that range?
Mr. Scott. I think it is not a fact.
The Chairman. Do you know whether it is or not?
Mr. Scott. I do not know.
The Chairman. You have no knoAvledge concerning it ?
Mr. Scott. I have no personal knowledge. I have only their state-
ment for it.
Senator Lane. I would like to ask you if you took any other means
to ascertain and individually tried to ascertain whether those figures
were correct?
Mr. Scott. I have, as I say. required a report and have had our
stockmen
Senator Lane. To specially take it up?
Mr. Scott. To take it up. I have required sworn statements from
them.
Senator Lane. And you depended on that?
Mr. Scott. Yes; it w^ould be impracticable for me to go out and
count their cattle.
Senator Lane. Would it be practicable to go out and look at them
once in a while?
Mr. Scott. I do that.
Senator Lane. Can you estimate bands running 50,000 and other
bands which would make 125,000?
Mr. Scott. A band of sheep is supposed to contain 3,000 head.
Senator Lane. Then there would be that many more bands in
125,000 than there would be in 50.000 and would resolve itself into a
matter of counting the number of bands, if they run an average of
about so many, w^ould it not?
Mr. Scott. How is that?
Senator Lane. If they ran in bands of 3,000, if there was 50,000
there would be fewer bands than there would if there were 150,000?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Senator Lane. They run so many keepers or helpers or herders
to a band?
Mr. Scott. They have one man, usually, with each band.
Senator Lane. And they give that man all the sheep he can handle,
which is supposed to be about 3,000?
Mr. Scott. Nov*-, if I saw a band of sheep I could tell without
counting them whether there were 3,000 or 20,000 sheep there; I
would know, b}^ looking over the herd, if it were increased to that
extent.
Senator Lane. Would you have to jump that far before vou could
tell the difference? Could you tell a 3,000 bunch from a 6,000
bunch ?
Mr. Scott. I think I could.
Senator Lane. You think vou could?
"CROW INDIAIS- EESERVATION. 1835
Mr. Scott I know the general appearance of a band of 3,000
sheep and while I have never counted them, I know in a general way
^ rri ^*^^^^^ ^'^^^ "*om the amount of country they cover
1 he Chairman. Did you make a lease last summer, along about
August a year ago, and was that the time when the Heinridi lease
was made ?
Mr. Scott. The Heinrich lease took effect the 1st of February.
Ihe Chairman. When was it made?
Mr. Scott. I do not remember the date.
The Chairman. Did you receive instructions from the office here
to make tnat lease on Form 5-731; that is, a form for leasing that is
kept hv the department and used by it? "=
Mr. Scott. I do not remember the number of the form,
form? ^^^"^^^'^^^'' -^^* y^^ ^^^ receive instructions to make it on a
Mr. Scott. We got instructions to draw that lease on a form that
accompanied the instructions.
The Chairman. Did you do that?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
The Chairman. Is it not a fact that instead of doing that you
merely issued grazing permits? ^
Mr. Scott. It is not.
The Chairman. Do you Imow whether or not Rae Bros, claim
openly m the community there the right to run under their contract
an average ot oO,000 sheep at certain seasons and 100,000 to 1-^5 000
eLeecn^o'oOoT'' '"^ ^''''^ ^' *^^ ^'^^'^'^' *'''" *^^ whole year does 'not
Mr. Scott. There was nothing to that effect in the lease.
that rio-h^r''^''^'''' ^''''''''' ^"^ '^"^ "''''' ^'''''''' whether they claim
Mr. Scott. I never heard the claim made.
Jrlldng'St ^'"' '"'™ -''"'"' ""^' •^■°" ""^ "» '™^^'«'g« "f
Mr. Scott. I have no knowledge.
The Chairman. Spear Bros, have a lease there, have they not?
Mr. Scott. Ices, sir.
The Chairman. What is the area of their lease «
Mr. Scott. It is something near the size of the other— near the
acreage of- the other.
The CiiAiR^iAN. That is a sheep range, is it not ?
Mr. &COTT. Spear Bros.? No, sir; cattle range.
Ihe Chairman. Do you know that Spear Bros, have sublet to a
??or,n'''"'^ Simmons, and that he is running between G0,000 and
75,000 under his sublease?
Mr. ScoTT. Simonson?
The Chair^lin. My information is that it is Simmons.
iMr. Scott. Ihe name is Simonson. They have sublet a portion of
the range to Simonson. f ^ ^i-
The Chairman, How many is Simonson running?
Mr. Scott. It is up in the Wolf Mountains.
Ihe Chairman. How many do they run?
Mr. Scott. Their flocks vary; I do not remember what they have.
i\.oV y'l^^''^'''''- Well, do you know whether they are exceeding
tne limit they are permitted or authorized to run ?
1836 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Mr. Scott. They are not, so far as I know. As I say
The Chairman. Do you know the number they are entitled to run
under their sublease?
Mr. Scott. No.
The Chairman. How do you know they are not exceeding it, then?
Mr. Scott. It is not the — the maximum number is not fixed.
The Chairman. Can they run any number they want to?
Mr. Scott. They can, yes; under their lease.
The Chairman. I understand that one who has a lease on one of
those reservations can run any number he pleases ''
Mr. Scott. The only provision in the lease is that tl e,y shall not
run their stock on a range to its detriment.
The Chairman. I will ask you if it is not a fact that the sheep
range especially is being overstocked, and that especially during the
summer it has been eaten down low and in some places destroyed?
Mr. Scott. It is not a fact.
The Chairman. It is not?
Mr. Scott. I say that emphatically.
Senator Lane. How do you ascertain whether it has been detri-
mental or not?
Mr. Scott. You can tell by riding over a range whether it has been
overstocked.
Senator Lane. Did you do that to ascertain ?
Mr. Scott. I did ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. When were you over the Spear lands?
Mr. Scott. I was out there some weeks ago; I do not remember
the exact dates.
The Chairman. How many times were you over it during the last
year?
Mr. Scott. Oh, I am out there every few weeks; different parts
of it.
The Chairman. Did you make any inspection of the range to as-
certain its condition and to ascertain how they are treating the range?
Mr. Scott. I always do that.
The Chairman. How many times did you do that the last year?
Mr. Scott. I always know the condition of the range in riding
over it.
The Chairman. How many times did you do that during the last
year ?
Mr. Scott. I could not say; I have occasion to go out there for
various purposes, and always in riding over the country naturally
know the condition of the range.
The Chairman. You made some reference awhile ago to Mrs. Grey
being out there and causing the Indians to quit work, or refuse to
work, rather. Did you have any disagreement with her while she
was out there?
Mr, Scott. We did not agree on all points.
The Chairman. Did you threaten to put her off the reservation?
Mr. Scott. I did not.
The Chairman. Did you threaten or use any form of intimida-
tion toward any Indians who are alleged to have given information
to her while she was on the reservation?
Mr. Scott. Emphatically no.
CKOW INDIAN RESEKVATION. 1837
i ■ The Chairman. Bid you wire to the office here that she was inter-
fering with your administration out there and ask for authority to
expel her from the reservation? ^
Mr Scott. I did not ask authority from the office to expel her
from the reservation; I reported-whether by wire or not I am un-
able to say-I reported by letter, at any rate, the situation,
tion^^ Chairman. Why did you object to her being on the reserva-
inf s tiiXdi^r ''' '^^^ *'^' '^^ p^'^^^^^^ ^^^^- -- ^--^^i-
The Chairman. How?
Mr. Scott. Resulting in their utter refusal to do any work, either
to farm their allotments or to work for wao-es
The Chair^lan. Now, Mr. Scott, what time did she get out there^
Mr. Scott. The latter part of September, I think it was. '
Ihe Chairman. Was that farming time?
Mr. Scott. That was at the time when the Indians were attending
their annual fair. cii^ucnainj^
The Chairman. Was that the farming season «
Mr. Scott. It was the time when they should be plowing; yes; and
when they should be thrashmg their grain. The fall is thi busy time
jus"t\irGr:rdid/°''' '^'^ *^ '^^^ ^^^^ ^^ °^ ^^^ ^^^^^^-^
of W^T'^- ^^'' Y'^ ""^r.?^^" ''^^^I' *^' ^^^^i^^^' tl^^ gist and trend
of her talk being abuse of the employees and giving to the Indians
the impression that they were being abused and robbed and mal-
treated and arraying them against the office-against all authority.
feenator Ioavnsend. How do you know she did that«
Mr. Scott. I heard her.
Senator Townsend. How ?
Mr. Scott. I heard her do it.
Senator Townsend. What did she do and what did you hear her
bdy .
Mr Scott. I could not repeat the words. Senator. There is a
record of one of those councils The record of one of those meetings,
I presume is m your files That is typical of the whole thing. She
took an attorney named McNally from Sheridan to St. Xa?ier, on
Ithe reservation; and while I am aware this is hearsay and would not
,be received in court, if I may, I will tell what he said to me about ft
I Senator Townsend. Cxo ahead. You are repeating what was told
'^^omefolT\^}^flC'' ^^' '^^^ i^"'; ^^'^ ^''^'^ ^^i^ ^t Sheridan to
.ome down ; that there was some law business there. She was to meet
aim at the county seat town of Hardin with an automobile and go
rom there a distance of some 25 miles to St. Xavier Mission. He
•io^ wr.?M n'^'''^ '''' T\ ^^''^' ^"^'"^^ «"^ ^^^^ ^^ent to the mis-
sion where Mrs. Grey was holding meetings with the Indians. He
i^d^pf"^""? S^^^d/f t<ltalk, especially to tell them how they
ent hfr^ hnTr ^'''''-f' «ff the reservation; how they could pre-
iletnvffb 1^ '",^^ ^'''^ ^^'^y ^«"1^^ obtain citizenship.
hat^Mr MVt^ information he could. About that time I learned
jhat Mr. McNally was over there, and wrote him asking for an ex-
1838 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
planation of his presence on the reservation on that errand, and I
think he left shortly after that; but the reports of these meetings
came fi-om many different sources.
The Chairman. Was Mrs. (jrey present when you were at the
council ?
Mr. Scott. Who ?
The Chairman. Mrs. Grey.
Mr. Scott. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you hear her statements?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Was that the meeting of which you say I have a
copy of the record ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I will ask you to look at this and see if this is the
meeting to which you refer [handing paper to witness].
Mr. Scott. This appears to be a copy of the proceedings; the date
is correct.
The Chairman. This is a record of the proceedings which you
say illustrate the interference of Mrs. Grey in your administration
there ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Is there any objection to that going into the rec-
ord? That will show what was said and done by all of you there.
[After consultation with Mrs. Grey.] Mrs. Grey has said that the
record was altered, so I presume it would not be proper to introduce
it until it is ascertained if it is authentic.
Do 3^ou know it is an authentic copy of the record?
Mr. Scott. That is authentic.
The Chairman. How do you know it is?
Mr. Scott. I know that the copy sent in was authentic.
The Chairman. How do you know ?
Mr. Scott. I only know it from the fact that the stenographer, in
whom I have every confidence, swore that it was authentic.
The Chairiman. Have you seen that, Mrs. Grey?
Mrs. Grey. Yes, sir ; I have copies of it.
The Chairman. I will ask Mrs. Grey some questions. You say,
Mrs. Gre}^
Mr. Scott. May I ask that Mrs. Grey be sworn ?
The Chairman. Yes; she may be sworn.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. HELEN PIERCE GREY.
(Mrs. Helen Pierce Grey, being duly sworn by the chairman, was
examined and testified as follows:)
The Chairman. Did you state that a part of the record of the
council proceedings held at Crow Agency, Mont., October 6, 1913,
had been eliminated?
Mrs. Grey. It had been eliminated — one Avhole speec^i had been
eliminated.
The Chairman. Whose speech was that?
Mrs. Grey. Sees With His Ears. When I obtained a copy of the
record which gave the names, they took this, and that is what he
wrote as being the speech that had been cut out.
The Chairiman. Do you remember what Sees With His Ears made I
a statement there ? !
CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1839
Mr. Scott. What statement?
The Chairman. At that council meeting.
Mr. Scott. I think he ^Yas on the floor at different times.
The Chairman. Different times?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir
Mrs. Grey. Another Indian by the name of Two Leggins was there
during the whole meeting, and he is the one they considered the high-
est chief and the president of the council. There is nothing in the
record to show that.
Eepresentative Carter. Is the part of the record that is there
correct ?
Mrs. Grey. N"o, sir ; it is not.
Kepresentative Carter. What is wrong about the part that is there?
Mrs. Grey. A number of things; what Frank Bethune said is not
there.
Kepresentative Carter. Is it not there?
Mrs. Grey. No.
Eepresentative Carter. Is the part of the record correct as to
what you said ?
Mrs. Grey. I could not say just exactly what I said there, but I
said in substance what is there.
The Chairman. That is, all that is material in your statement. If
there is no objection upon that ground, the statement alluded to
here as being the record of what took place at the council meeting
October 6, 1913, may go into the record here for that purpose.
(Record of council meeting October G, 1913, is as follows:)
council proceedings held at crow agency. mont., october c, 1913, at 11
o'clock a. M.
(Mr. Russell White Bear rends the following letter:)
The Superintendent of the Crow Reservation,
Croio Agency, Mont.:
Mrs. Helen Pierce Gi'ey represents certain Crow Indians who desire to pre-
sent their case to the Senate commission to investigate Indian affairs through
her. It is therefore requested that you and your employees furnish her facil-
ities and information and extend to her such courtesies as may promote her
convenience in the performance of her services.
Very truly, •
Jos. T. Robinson, Chainnan.
Mr. Scott. Now, my friends, we want to get down to business. I will be
glad to hear from you anything pertaining to the business of the tribe; any-
thing for the good of the Crows. Speak out freely and fully.
Two Leggins. I would like to have you put on record that we request Mr.
Jenkins to be present at this meeting. Mr. Campbell, who has been here for
the past 20 years, should be here also, and we request his presence.
Mr. Scott. Mr. Campbell is witness at court at Plardin, and will be back as
soon as possible.
Two Leggins. In any important meeting of this kind, Mr. Campbell should
be here, but it seems that he is always absent.
Sees With His Ears. Please take down everything that we say.
Yellow Head. I want to know why several stakes have been placed at
intervals fi-om Hardin up the Big Horn Valley, here and there.
Mr. Scott. There is a company organized for the purpose of constructing a
railroad from the mouth of the Big Horn Canyon, from Hardin to Custer,
find to construct a canal on the other side of the Big Horn River. That com-
pany secured the consent of the Secretary of the Interior to make a survey.
That does not necessarily mean that the railroad or the canal will be built.
It is only a survey to determine whether the project is practicable. If they~
]^840 CROW INDIAN EESERVATION.
find that it is, and the company is strong enough to put in the railroad and
the canal, then they will go ahead and ask for a right of way.
Yellow Head. We have never been informed, and yet they have planted the
stakes and we have never had a meeting on the matter.
Mr. Scott. If the project comes to anything, then it will be taken up with
the Indians. ^ .^. ,
Yellow Hea.d. Very often certain matters have been under proposition and
they do not let the Indians know anything about it, and when they get it
through it is too strong to stop the progress of it, and that is why I wanted to
find out before. . ,^ -r i • i r
Two Leggins. This short man, the fence builder [meaning Mr. Jenkins], I
heard that Mr. Jenkins made the remark that the Indians have nothing to
hold council about, and he has gone and skipped from here. In this proposed
■council, why did he run away? , ^ ^-^ ^ -^
Mr Scott. The time was fixed for 9 o'clock, and Mr. Jenkins thought that it
would be uncertain when it would be held, and he has gone. He was here at 9
o'clock. ^ , 4.. *
Two Leggins. He ought to have understood that we requested a meeting for
to-day As far as I am concerned, if I am told that some matters are to be
brought up, no matter how busy I am, I will look ahead to be present at that
meeting.
Bird Above. Yesterday I suggested at our meeting across the river, as it was
muddy and bad, that it was not necessary to leave for our homes and that we
get together to-day for a council. This is the proper time to have a meeting,
and whenever we have anything to say we want to tell it to you. No doubt
Mr Jenkins understood what I said, as he was on my left-hand side at the
meeting yesterday. He is here as an inspector, and I do not see why he would
be absent when he knew the meeting was to be here.
Spotted Rabbit. Mr. Harris, I would like to ask you a question. Did the
Commissioner of Indian Affairs authorize you, or the Secretary of the Interior,
or the committee authorize you to be here?
Russell W. Bear. Mr. Harris hands me the credentials which I shall read to
the Indians [reads] :
" To ichom it may concern:
"The bearer, Mr. H. Harris, is authorized to visit Indian reservations in
Montana to examine records, make investigations, and take statements of
witnesses for and on behalf of the Joint Commission to Investigate Indian
Affairs. _ ^, • ,.
" Jos. T. Robinson, Chairman."
Spotted Rabbit. Are you one of the Senators?
Mr. Harris. I am not.
Spotted Rabbit. Were you just recently appointed?
Mr. Harris. I was. • *'•
Spotted Rabbit. From what source are you paid?
Mr. Harris. I am paid from the committee.
Spotted Rabbit. That is all. I wanted to say something to Mr. Jenkins. 1
wanted to ask him something.
Mr. Harris. Ask him if he has been told in private that I have no authority
on this reservation and that I was only here to bleed the Indians.
Spotted Rabbit. You said in your statement yesterday that j'ou did not want
a nickel from us. . tt ^-^ ^^f
Mr. Harris. I have refused to take presents, such as moccasins. He did not
answer my question.
Russell W. Bear. He said no. ^ ., . ^ „.
Knows the Ground. I wish to repeat some of the things I said yesterday,
in fact, all that I remember. I want to have a thorough understanding of it.
I want to know what instructions were given to you when you were appointed
as agent by the Indian Department. , f t
Mr Scott I had no specific instructions; merely to come and do what i
thought was right. The Secretary said to me at that time that this reserva-
tion had lieen in an uproar for four or five years and that he hoped I would be
able to quiet things down.
Knows the Ground. From what source of revenue are you paid.' i^rom
what money? *,,„.. ^y.ir^h
]\[r Scott. I am now paid from "Indian moneys, proceeds of labor, .wnicn
menns money to the credit of the tribe from grazing leases, etc. That is ouiy
within the past year. The change was made last year.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. Jg^]^
Knovvs the Ground. What wns llie chan-ev
^^J^l^Sf^nil^'^^''-^' ""O fi-o- -»"ey appropriated fr„,„ the
Mr. Scott. Wliite nniu's uionej- i.p'eo that time
iui. i>coTT. jrie does not nnrtpr'^tniiri tt.^ ^^ i i. ^•' •
from the white man's money; hen he Vutloritief in (v'^'^^^'^ '''''''^ '^""'^
money and „nt me on the r o 1 of eSoyeef m rf frnn7r ^^""^'^'^'^ ^^''^
get one salary. employees paid from Indian money. I only
As you look at me, I have lon^ hali % ? ? ^o" would look after our affairs.
Crows-.-,nd if I comnnt a cnn e hlo^-l n. ?!„ , f" "^^^ interested ^vith the
on the reservation. Instead of decidi, t mt ^o "^^ ^ '^"^'^'^^ ^^ ^'^ punished here
should stand the conseque ce2- Sp '^^ Hei-e-and if I am guilty and
Mr. Scott. That is a m- tt% thnt ? dn .nf^ '"? ",'^ ^^'^ ^^^^ -^«"d »>e kvvay.
offenses th.t we may handl^hei in H I re'er'S' T^'"'' ^""^ ^^^^^^'" ^"^^^^
such as bringing in whisky, stealin" WseS l .' lYn Tn^ '"'''''' ''''"""^ ^^■""««'
J^r c^i.^ ^^-^ - th/.nited'^tr^ -- ^^^udLdT^eX^S
aff^?^^irh:?t tSs:; ^^;;rc!;jrs\5^^3n?^if r^-^f ^ ^^ ^-^^^^
as our agent, should prevent the trnnsfer of «nrh ^way from here, and you,
to assist us. why do vou remain here? ''^'•'^'' *'''*^ '^ 5^°" ^° ^«t want
Mr. Scott. What has he in mind*?
lo^^wh^ ;a;ete:rn;rLZve';to'^fe^?..r%V- -7-- ^^ ^ '^^ «f I-r fel-
of money, and it look^^s thonc^h vo f nm. V'"*^'""^'*''' '"'^ '^ ^°^^« ^^^^"^ ^ l«t
violations Of t^.e Federal law '" ^"'"" '" '^^ ^^^^""^^ ^«"^-t ^b^^t have not been
if ^;^^^nr^^rs;t «is^^^st^s^jri'^^v^-^^' - ^^-^- *^-
it. That is why I ask you That is alf *'''"'^^"^^^ y«" ^'-^^'e the power to do
to Kno^S^he'^Ground's taSThis monSn" ' V^'"^' '''■ ^^'^"^ ^^^ ^^^-^^
th-'tintl)en:ostiH"ortant .^^sftwni^^P^^^ You informed Knows the Ground
court. If vou have Luthoritv to ind h "71^ f''i"«fer them to the Federal
henring on^-mportant Ss Jhv rffd lon^^^^^ ^^'^'"-^^ ^«"rt of
he caine before thrudiafs ami fire^^^ b™"^^^"« '^^^ ^h^n
look after that? The only ones who shonfr. '''''''■'' ^^^'" • "^^^ '^'^ .^«" ^ot
the Fed^; a tZ n^Ses^' Those\r the sf •^' ^^" '^^^' ^^^"^ ^^ *'-^'-" "P ^^
refers t,>.vith reference to Frank HSurS's'lLTlTe? ' '' ""'' '""^ ^^'^^ ^^
Jr?; UlTve^^^o ste^'hinrSs^A^/^S'^ ^"'"^ '^"^ ^^ ^^^ -- -^^^^- «"d
back to their hon es Heiir cb'^Tm; f ^^'Z,^'''-^y some meat, and on the way
Cur.y's wagon one of the men 'ot \nto T. wf"' "" '^ '''''''■ ^'''''' "^^-^ "^«t
rich-s brother got his Am out nnd.w n n Tr^''" '''"'^ searched it while Hein-
should be taken uj^ Why So you not HI pH,.^ ^'"^^i"; '^ "'='"^^ ^^ ^'^^^ '^i"d
the Federal court v ^ ^ "°* *'''^'' '^^^ "P '"^^^i l^ave them appear before
thP'wS^^L^ilmLSlfi °?;^SSI^:,-!^- , ;^^;t^"'^ not b. a thing
C^r^^^Z SeTSSlf eSaSr^ /^^^^ "^-S^
bin, of stealing The meat ^^^^P^^i^t «bout it, because they did not accuse
Hein?eh's7n;n'';\o''rre no^on^^l^l^^^^^ ^* 'S '^ }' -^ ^'^"^^^ that some of
and do shooting We do not wnnf ^.'^^ ^^f^' ^^'""''^ ^^•'^^'^l^ Indians' wagons
Mr. SCOTT. Who Sircherf the waton. """''''' '" "^' reservation.
looked up to to look after snch tlS^^^ISt m.^^e^^i^^S^'Sit^h^s^^S
1842 CROW INDIAN EESEEVATION.
ovei-lookeil by the jiutliorilios. I liuve a right to say something about it for Ihe
welfare of the Indians.
Mr. Scott. There are a great nuiny things of that kind that take phice on the
reservation ithat we can not help, things for which different people are to blame.
We can not take them up and prosecute them, because they do not conslitute
a crime and all we can do is to try to keep them down as closely as possible.
If I took up all the little matters and followed up all the small complaints, we
would need to have a much larger police force than we have and it woukl keep
the Indian court busy all the time. . . , ,,
Seks With His Ears. I have just told you that any matter that impaired the
Indian's position I have a right to discuss it with the authorities. In regard
to the dead allotment money, instead of when we ask for authority from Wash-
insrtnn, we would like to have it so arranged that as soon as the Indian sells
his buid that all the money be turned over to him, and the Indian will use
the money according to his 'discretion, and put it in the bank if he wants to.
Mr Scott That would involve a change of policy on the part of the Indian
Office and that is something I can not do. I can not change their policy. I '
have to take orders from the office. The reason for that is that a great many
Indians as soon as they get money send it; no matter how much there is of it
they will immediately "get rid of it. So they want this money to do the In-
dians as much good as possible. It is .iust like giving you a fee patent for
your land When you get a fee patent you can go and sell that land and you
■"•et the money in your hand, then you are at liberty to si)end it just :is you
please ITiider the'biw the department can grant a fee patent to an Indian who
is competent to handle his own affairs, but he must first make a showing to the
deiiartment that he is competent to handle his affairs before we can turn his
^'^ SErS wixH ms Ears. I am not speaking of the fee patent. That question
!'=• not'in my talk at all. I am simply asking that you would use your influence
to secure permission from the department to change that regulation, so that
the Indians who have dead allotments and have sold dead allotments and have
money in the otiice, that each one that wanted to take it out and spend it or
nut it in the bank, it is all right.
Air Scott The office is growing more liberal all the time, ^^e can get more
money 'now. 'money for what we call '" unrestricted use'' and it is working more
alon- that direction. I would be glad to see them do that, and I like especially
the idea of the boys putting their money in the bank where they can draw it
themselves It teaches them to keep money on hand so they can get it when
thev need' it A few are doing that now and they are making rapid progress.
Skfs With His E\rs If it would benefit some, and that it would be a good
thin-" why not all of us have that privilege? If we had the money in our
nos4ssion we could deposit it in the bank and we could go and draw at our
felsum The policy to-chiy is that we have to await authority from Washington.
^^Mr^ScoT? They might embody that in their request to the office.
Skfs With His E\rs. I wish to talk about one more thing that we are worry-
in- about The way we understand in regard to the school regulations, is we
r^ told that it is the policy of the Indian Office to have the children in the
school to the age of IS years, and then after that they are entitled to be dis-
charged from the school, but at the present time there are some that are of
that age, so it is our request tha.t every one of the school children who ni-e over
18 ma? be turned over to their parents so they could go home and be with their
^'M^'st'oTT-'S'soo'jns school children reach the age of IS they are turned
out miless it' is at the middle of the term, and then they are kept until the close
of the term Their ages are determined according to the records of the office.
We have the age and time when each child was born i)i,it down on i.aper at the
time they were brought in to be enrolled, and yery generally that record is
correct "The father and mother may lose the count. They have nothing to go
by but 'their memory, so to make it fair to all we go by the record in ^^^^f}]';^:
Sees With His Ears. Let us have a thorough understanding on tl at m the
future Several have complained that their children have reached the age ot
IS, and they go to the office and consult you in regard to their ages, and it you
"■ive it to them they will not molest you in the meantime.
" Mr ScoTT. We will give them the age any time they ask for it.
Sees With His Ears. That is all on that matter. We are going to talk on
the cattle question to-day. We are of the opinion that we want in^^ividual
herds but we fear that the department is scheming to have the cattle .n a com-
CROW INDIAN EESERVATION. 1843
luon herd. Next spring as soou as tbp cattle are inirchased and brought here
and unloaded from the cars we want them to be issued to us individually so we
can take them to our own homes and take care of them.
Mr. Scott. I have reconiniended that. I have told the office that the Indians
were unanimously in favor of that. I want each man to have his own cattle
and to be responsible for them. Each man to see what he can make out of them.
Sees With His Ears. That will go down on this record and go to the office
as the sentiment of this meeting. As a body of people it is our aim to looli
forward instead of looking .sideways or backwards, and it is our interest that
we look after our cattle, and when it is time to ship cattle and want to sell
our steers we should do so. so we can get money that will be of some benefit to
us. That is the reason we are oi)posed to the common herd. Any matter like
that we want to discuss it thoroughly to the end. That is all on that matter.
We are all ojiposed to the building of the fence. I am one of the main ones
against tlie building of that fence.
Mr. Scott. As I explained to you yesterday, that plan was adopted by a com-
mittee selected by the office. The idea was to divide the range to be occupied
by the Indian cattle from the range that is to be retained by Frank Heinrich —
to keep the cattle from mixing up and causing trouble between Heinrich and his
men and the Indians.
Sees With His Ears. You have had your say. I want my speech on the
record and I want to talk until I get through. I want to know whether the
parties who have been appointed by the Indian Bureau, whether it was proper
to segregate Heinrich's cattle and the Indian cattle, has consulted with the
Crows, and we are anxious to know, and we protested against that building
of the fence and we do not know anything about the scheme. It has always
been the trouble with the Indian Bureau and the department to come on tiie
reservation to suggest and plan matters without consulting the Indians. They
simply come on the reservation and do as they please. This place does not
belong to them. It is ours. Whenever a matter is brought up it should be
brought to a council, and if it is approved by the Indians it .should be carried
through, but very often they push things through without our consent. You
are building a fence cutting off the nice springs at the headwater of the creeks,
and Heinrich's cattle will naturally manure the places above the fence and our
cattle will be deprived of the good water. It seems you are building the fence
for Heinrich instead of for the benefit of the Crows. Some time you asked me
personally what my opinion was in regard to the construction work the rail-
road people were about to construct at Wyola, to have an underground water
pipe, and I told you we had better have a general council of the matter, and you
never said anything about it and now, I understand, it has been carried through.
Mr. Scott. This pipe line runs all the way through allotted land. Tlie peo-
ple who owned the allotted land were called on, and each one was paid 2^ cents
for each foot of the length of the pipe.
Frank Bethune. I want to know whether the Great Father has sent you here
to assist me or not.
Mr. Scott. Sure.
Frank Bethune. As I look over the ground here, some of them are chiefs
and some of them are old. For an illustration, they are like work horses.
When they were young they could work, but now they are old and can not work.
Whenever any of these Indians sell their dead allotments their money should
be paid over to them right away. They know something about banking. If
they spend all of the money they derive from the dead allotment sales it does
not hurt you any. If they want to spend it let them spend it at their discre-
tion. They all think they are smart, so let them have the money, and they
will place a dollar before them and they will look forward to increase the value
of that dollar. I am begging you and pleading to you to use your influence to
secure the right that we should get all of our dead-allotment money and try
us and see who is the best man and see who will keep their money and who
will spend it. When they issued the cattle to us yeai's ago I saw that some
of them looked after their cattle and herded them, and here is one man — this
man, Shavings, looked after his cattle, and he had as many as 80 or 90 head.
He went so far as to herd them on foot. They took these cattle away from
him and other Indians and placed them in the common herd, and from then
they did not look after their cattle, and the cattle were all stolen ; and Shavings
has no cattle and is among one of the poorest of the Indians to-day. When they
purchase these cattle they should issue them out individually, and if they kill
35601— PT 15—14 3
1844 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
them and are not capable of liandlmg them it is uot your fault. They do not
belong to you. They belong to the Indians. Use your influence so that we
could get the cattle individually instead of the common herd.
Mr. Scott. I will do that.
Frank Bethune. They are our cattle, and give them to us, and if we do
not care for them it is our own fault. They do not belong to the department.
Issue them out to us. This reser\ation is like a cracker, it is breaking here
and there and is going away, and when you issue the cattle to them and get the
dead-allotment money they can go buy cattle with it. They might buy pigs
and chickens. I have got a dollar here. It is mine, and I see it and am
scheming how to spend it or increase it, and that is what I want for these
Indians here.
Hoop on Forehead. I have cut some hay this summer. While I was out
cutting hay Frank Shively came to my home and searched my place. I have
got some cattle. Whenever I have any meat at home I use my own cattle. I
always get along well with you. Frank Shively told me that you gave him
orders to search my place, and told Frank that I had a lot of meat there. No
doubt that everybody has heard of the matter. I have always treated you
right and used you as a friend. For the benefit of Mr. Harris and Mrs. Gray,
I want to say something about it. I have been used as a scout in following the
Sioux some years ago. I was with Gen. Crook during the campaign, and I was
in the fight on the Rosebud, but they have not paid me anything. What is the
reason they did not give me anything?
Now I have only four head of cattle near my place. All the rest are scat-
tered in the mountains and over the reservation. When we eat any beef or
any of these Indians kill their own cattle, it is right that we kill our own beef.
The white men are not the only ones who have beef.
Bird Above. I want to ask you a question. Have you ever instructed your
farmers, with circulars or verbally, to search Indian houses, etc.?
Mr. Scott. No ; I never have.
Bird Above. Our boss farmer, Foster, has done that trick of searching some
of the Indians' houses, and I want to know whether it is by your orders or the
Indian OtHce.
Mr. Scott. There has been a good deal of cattle killing over on the Bighorn.
The farmers have been instructed to keep a close lookout to prevent it, if pos-
sible, and to find out who did it when killing did occur. They were never told
just how to go at it, but were allowed to use their own judgment. It is the
practice everywhere when the oflicers have reason to think that evidence of
killing cnn be found by searching a house to search it. When a crime has been
committed it is to the interest of everybody to know who did it, so if he searches
your house and finds nothing, that would seem to clear you of suspicion. You
can see if the officers were not allowed to search for evidence they could not
fasten the crime on anyone. It is the duty of every good citizen to help the
officers in every way they can to uncover crime and not to throw obstacles in
his way and shield a criminal.
Bird Above. I have reason to believe that Heinrich has committed some of
the killing himself in order to accuse the Indians of the killing, and he went
with the farmer to search the Indians' house. I believe that Heinrich has paid
that boss farmer to work against us.
Mr. Scott. If you bring me proof of that, we will have another boss farmer.
Bird Above. I do not kill any cattle at all. I always consider myself among
the best Indians here, yet Foster came and searched my place without any
reason at all. All of us over on the Bighorn are anxious to see Mr. Foster
discharged right away. If you should get up and ask the Bighorn Indians
whether they want Mr. Foster discharged, they will say in the affirmative. Will
you ask whether they want to retain Mr. Foster or not?
Mr. Scott. Is that all the charge he has to bring against him?
Bird Above. There are a lot more.
Mr. Scott. The way to get at that is to present your charges against him in
writing, saying just why you want him discharged and just what he has done.
Foster has always been considered one of the very best farmers on the reser-
vation. The way to measure a farmer is by the way he does his work.
Bird Above. We all think lie is the worst farmer on the reservation.
Mr. ScoTT. The fact must be considered that Bird Above was discharged as a
policeman at Foster's request ; and, of course, he does not like Foster.
Bird Above. The reason I do not like Mr. Foster is that, without having any
search warrant, he came and searched my place to assist Heinrich. That is
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1845
why 1 do not like him. He has not been a good farmer. He has done a lot of
wrong over there, and, even if you do not remove him, we do not like him any
more.
Coyote Runs. At one time the Crows owned all this country. They owned
all these different animals. They had plenty to eat at that time, and even
then an important matter of this kind they would bring it up for discussion. My
former resources and livelihood are gone, such as buffaloes, antelope, etc. They
are all gone. My only resource is from my land to-day. In other words, I
depend on what my land produces. You might have placed me on very fine
land. No, I am living on a very small reservation. My land is so decreased
that it is small in comparison with the other days. When the department
wants to do anything on my reservaion they should have a general meeting,
and if the Indians decide in favor of their proposition, all right; and if not,
they decide in the negative. I own this land, and whenever I say anything I
want it to be so and not have anyone else judge for me. I am speaking of
former leading chiefs at the time the Governmeut made treaties with them.
One is Long Horse and the other is Blackfoot. I have not been paid for the
lands they have taken from me. If I have been paid it may have been a nickel
or 10 cents, but if I have been paid I do not know anything about it. Now, I
have only a small piece of laud and I do not want to be molested and keep what
is left. I have ceded over to you that portion of land lying in the Clarks
Fork, Old Agency, and about Billings. The white men has taken that laud and
I have made you rich — and the wealth you have piled it up sky high. I have
ceded a big strip over to you and the owners of the land to-day are very
wealthy; and yet, instead of progressing I am going backward and have not
received the proper compensation. All our former experiences teach us not to
let any more land be ceded, and to provide for future security I must hold to
my land. The reservation is small, but somehow or other Heinrich is very
anxious to put his cattle on the reservation. It does not matter how you
handle stock or where you place the stock, there is always danger of natural
death coming to your cattle. When he finds any of his cattle dead he tries to
blame it on some one all the time. I have heard a great deal of Heinrich.
I have never met him. but he seems to bother my people and my land a whole
lot. In the future, if Mr. Heinrich does not wish to lose any more of his cattle,
he should move off the reservation, as there is lots of other land, and we request
that he move off the land, as we do not want him here any more. I ask the
Indians whether they agree to my sentiments and whether they want Heinrich
removed from the reservation. [General show of hands.]
Two Leggins. Where is Jenkins?
Mr. Scott. He did not know you wanted to talk to him.
Russell W. Bear. I told him this morning that they wanted to talk to him,
but he said he had nothing to talk about and that the Indians were crazy. I
have a matter myself to talk to him about.
Spotted Rabbit. I want to know of Mr. Harris if he will have a copy of this
and present it to the committee?
Mr. Harris. I want it if I can get it.
Mr. Scott. You can have a copy.
Spotted Rabbit. We would like to have a copy of it. We want cattle. Next
spring, when the cattle are issued to us. we want to look after them individually.
We want to have the increase for our future livelihood. In former years we
had a common herd, and it is a bad policy and it has not accrued us anything,
and by our former experiences we are afraid of the danger of a common herd.
Many of our children who have been born recently and have not been allotted
we want them allotted.
Mr. Scott. Right there. Spotted Rabbit, there is no law now under which we
can allot children. If we ask Congress to make a law providing for the allot-
ment of children, these people who are wanting to open the reservation will
immediately add a provision opening the rest of the reservation after the allot-
ments are made That is what we are up against. All of the children have
selections of land, and when the time comes for allotting, they will get the land
that is selected for them. We can not tell when that will be.
Spotted Rabbit. I want that to go on record. During Hatchett's time some
of the Indian children's allotments that were selected have never been allotted
to them and have died before any definite arrangements have been made and
any papers that have been given to them ; we want them to have the land now,
and those that have been born since, we want them allotted also. The surplus
land of our reservation has been districted off to lessors in one, two, three, four,
1846 CROW INDIAN EESERVATION.
five, and six districts. Every time we have a meeting Heinricb's name has
been hronght np, and we have bad a great deal of trouble with him. and search
each other's places, etc. I made a reason for protesting against the building
of the fence, because we want to use that money for our own benefit for build-
ing the fence. For instance, yesterday, when you presented the bill of Robert
Tellowtail for the $30 he wanted to collect from the Indians. You see we love
our money and do not want to spend it for building such things as fences. You
are building that fence for Heinrich, as the best springs are on the other side of
the fence. You have already witnessed the Indians have raised their hands
that they do not want Heinrich any more.
i\Ir. Scott. Let me give him an item of the money that is building the fence.
The treaty that became a law on April 27, 1904, provided that the Secretary
should spend $40,000, or as much of it as might be necessary, for fencing the
reservation. That money came from the sale of the ceded land, and it can not
be spent for anything else without an act of Congress.
Spotted Rabbit. That is a matter that does not do us any good at all, yet you
are all leading toward it, and you have reached that point. The time when
we had that council we said we wanted the fence built around the reservation.
We did not say we wanted it built through the reservation. I was one of the
men at that council, and I know just what we said. You assist Heinrich and
keep him here, and in another year or so there will be some murder going on
here.
Mi: Scott. Now. let me tell you about that. A year ago the Heinrich lease
expired. The range was put up for lease to the highest bidder for a term of
three years. Frank Heinrich was the highest bidder, and so the lease was made
to him. I do not care the least little bit who has the range. Frank Heinrich
thinks I am hard on him ; you think I am working for him. I am between two
stones. He is giving up a part of that range now, and my understanding is
that as soon as he can get rid of his stock he intends to get out entirely. Now,
the thing for you people to do is to give him a square deal, treat him as you
would a man, and get along with him the best you can until he gets out of there.
Spotted Rabbit. If he gets away from the reservation soon that is the only
way he can get away from here without any trouble. If he stays any length
of time no doubt there will be some trouble. Now is the time. It is fiill and
his cattle are fat. and it is a good time to ship cattle, and he can ship his cattle
away and there will be no trouble at all. and we want that l;ind for next spring.
He simply comes there himself and throws things aromid and searches jilaces
and shoots dogs. Nobody would do that. For instance. I go outside of the
reservation and shoot some of your white men's dogs down. What would you
do to me? When these Indians sell their dead allotments and they think they
are going to get money, and they know they have money, and they get per-
mission to buy horses you give them an order for $400 or $500. They know
a horse's value, and when they go out to a man and he knows it is ready cash,
he gets an old team of horses that are not worth anything.
Mr. Scott. I will tell you how the trouble came in that: That was the prac-
tice for quite a while, to give an authority to buy a team for so much money.
AVe found that in nearly every instance these old Indians would take that
kind of an authority — say for $.'500 — they would buy an old pair of skates worth
about $150, and they would get a little cash, and the result was they were
getting cheated on their horses, and we had to adopt the practice of having the
stockmen and farmers ins]iect the horses they were buying and the price they
paid for them.
Yellow Head. We all know that it is important that, no matter who they are^
they are willing to work and they should have teams. We know good teams
when we see theuL I am contemplating on buying a team 4 years old, a wagon
not quite a year old, and a set of harness not a year old. I brought them over
to the office to have you inspect them, and asked you about buying them. You
did not say a word, but got up and left.
Mr. Scott. Yellow Head came to the office some time ago and said that he
was blind and was not strong and could not work and that he wanted a
monthly allowance so he could buy grub for his money. AVe made that ar-
rangement for him, and he has since that time been drawing $25 a month.
When we ask for permission to buy a team for an Indian we have got to say
that that Indian can make some use of it, and it would have been inconsistent
to ask for a work team for a man who says himself that he can not work.
Now, Yellow Head does not work. He came to me with a team, as he says, and
wanted to buy it some time ago. He wanted to buy of a man who was passing
CROW IN])IAN EESERVATION. 1847
tlirougli the coimtry. and who. if he sold the team, he must have the money
right then and there. It talies from 10 days to 2 weeks to get authority from
Washington. I explained all of that to Yellow Head many times. I never
in my life refused to answer an Indian when he si3oke to me.
Spotted Rabbit. From now on give the Indians their dead allotment money
so they can take care of it themselves.
Mr. Scott. In that case, Spotted Eahbit. take Yellow Head's case. He has
about $400. Suppose we gave him all that money, and he would go and buy
a team with it. He has nothing to eat, and he would have no money to buy
grub.
Spotted Rabbit. He is not too old to work. If you gave him that $400 the
chances are that he would buy a team and work with it. You see lots of old
white men that work.
Mr. Scott. You have to judge what a man will do by what he has done in
the past.
Spotted Rabbit. It is their money, and if they wash to purchase cattle or
horses, or anything they want, it is their money, and they have the* right to
.spend it as they see fit. If the money was given to them now they would
improve their places.
Mr. Scott. I do not know about that. His wife has a good team.
Spotted Rabbit. I am speaking for the Crows. I am not speaking for Yellow
Head alone.
Mr. ScoTT. I am taking Yellow Head as an illustration.
Spotted Rabbit. Over on Big Horn Basin lies Black Foot, an uncle of mine.
Over there in this northern direction lies River Crow claim. I would like to
have an attorney look after those places. I have been trying to get a lawyer
to get compensation, to get the money that has not been paid us for the
River Crow district and the Big Horn Basin, and I would like to have Mr.
Harris take this up and present it to Congress so that it would get these claims
through.
Mr. Scott. I made a request to the office some time ago that they employ an
attorney to search the records to see if there was any claim in favor of the
Crows that could be enforced. I am not in favor of employing an attorney by
the year, but I would employ them to do a certain thing, pay them for that and
let them go.
Spotted Rabbit. We would not con.sent to or we do not ask Congress or the
Indian Bureau to make a selection of a lawyer. We Indians will decide on
what lawyer to employ. Since I mention this matter, I will stay by my word
and continue asking for a lawyer until I get one. That is all on that matter.
With regard to the school children. There is some misunderstanding on that.
They are our children. They were born, and we know when they were born, and
we know their age. Right now there is a new moon. We have a way of count-
ing years by the moon and we know just exactly the length of time. Whenever
the moon is full seven times, it is a year, according to our comi)utatiou. You
have twelve times in your year. Now. since the matter has been brought up in
regard to the school children, we ask that those who are IS years old be let out
of school, and the girls that are IS also he let out without waiting any longer.
. Mr. Scott. We have that understanding. There Is no misunderstanding at
all. but that we have to go by our records. I am glad you told us about the
moons. It may explain the difference between our records and the time as the
parents remember it.
Bull Dont Fall Down. I would like to have Mr. Harris and Mrs. Grey pay
especial attention to what I say. It will not be very much. You look at me.
My flesh is not iron ; it is soft, but I have made peace with you and I have
worked for you and have been on friendly terms with you. When I was 17
years old. it* was the first time they established an agency. The Sioux were
trying to take this land away from me here around this locality. You see
that my flesh is soft, yet I work bard to retain the land for my people, so that
the white people who come in this part of the country may travel in peace.
Now you are doing it. As an illustration, I am like the killdeers who lay their
eggs on the rocks. When we go near them they do not like to leave their eggs.
I have treated you likewise. I have stayed by you. It was my aim that I
would like to see everybody, white man and Indian, live here in peace, and I
have worked hard in that interest, and I am glad it is so. When the depart-
ment wanted us to cede a certain part of the land, I refused, but when the ma-
jority of the Indians consented, I also consented. Now. I ceded a portion of the
reservation over to you. You have paid me partially, still you are grabbing
I
1848 CROW INDIAN EESEEVATION.
over it and trying to talje my reservation away from me. If you open the
reservation, tlie cbildren now and tlie ones tliat are growing up, if tliey have
children in the future, what are they to do for land when you have taken all
our land. Some of the biggest portion of my land that I had in former years,
which lies beyond the Musselshell, and some on this side that I have ceded to
the Government, some of it has not been paid for.
Mr. Scott. Let me say a word there. Under the treaty the Government
guaranteed the Indian $1.25 per acre. The greater part of the land has been
sold, but there is still quite a good deal left. That is held because there is coal
under it. Now, instead of getiug $1.25 per acre, as the Government guaranteed
you, you will get more than twice that much. The payment for this land j^,
divided into five equal parts, one year apart. As fast as it comes in it is put
in the bank at Washington to the credit of the tribe. It is that money that
will go to pay for these cattle that you will get this spring.
Russell W. Bear. Are you referring to the River Crow Claim or the Ceded
Strip? .
Mr. Scott. Ceded Strip.
Russell W. Bear. He refers to the River Crow Claim and the Ceded Strip
also.
Bull Dont Fall Down. You are looking to other reservations for heirs to
this land. We have relatives on this reservation and do not want you to look
to the other reservations. I have already stated that I have assisted you
white people and have been peaceable and I would ask you to use your in-
fluence to look after my affairs and get some benefit for me.
Sees With His Ears. I would like to have a copy of this for Mr. Harris and
Mrs. Grey.
Russell W. Bear. Sees W^ith His Ears told the Indians that he was one of
the main instigators of many petitions that have been framed at the office, or
elsewhere, to prevent Mrs. Helen Grey from coming on the reservation, but
since she has been permitted by the Senate committee to come, that the Indians
you see have raised their hands and voted to put Mrs. Grey on salary and
they hav chosen her as their legal representative of their affairs in the future.
Puts on Antelope Cap. When they bought the land in the Yellowstone Valley
I was one of the main chiefs. They were in council like this and the majority
of the chiefs were willing to relinquish that portion of the land, and I was
one that protested, yet the majority carried the day. After the council we
chiefs returned to, the reservation and told the Indians that they promised
us several million dollars for that portion of the reservation we ceded and
we were very glad that we were to get a large sum of money, but a large part
has never been paid us, and a great many of those Indians are dead. When we
were getting the annuity of $12 per year each, many of our relatives died and
we were paid their share. Now. when a payment is paid to the Indians we
do not get any of their money, even when they have their names already regis-
tered. When we were first moved here from the old agency they promised us
they would issue rations to us for 29 years. A short time after we were moved
here the rations were cut off. Why did not they carry out their agreement?
The surrounding tribes of Indians around us. they are getting rations. They
are having trouble with the white people. The Crows have always been peace-
able with the white people. You have cut us off from rations. It is customary^
that at the age of 17 or 18 years our children are considered of age and are men*
and women. Now, when they are 20 and 22 they are kept in school.
George No Horse. There have been so many complaints in regard to the
partition fence, and I want to tallv about the fence. Anybody in bnikling a
fence, they would build it on a straight line. In laying out the poles for the
line they dodge water holes and take in all the heads of springs. It looks as
though they were going to fence all of the water holes out of the Indian range.
Mr. Scott. Tell him that it is a mistake; that it goes to the south in order to
take in water holes on the Indian side of the fence.
George No Horse. That is not so. I see it with my own eyes. All the Indians
protest against the division fence for Frank H'einrich. Another reason why we
do not like Frank Heinrich on the reservation is that his cattle has been de-
stroying our crops. I came on the train this morning and saw cattle destroying
stacks. The reason that we have not been able to take Frank Heinrich off the
reservation is that he is assisted by our agent, W. W. Scott, and binding him
so that we can not put him off the reservation. ]\Ir. Scott, we do not wish you
to assist Frank Heinrich. even if we were awarded $1,000,000 that he should
stay any longer. Frank Heinrich has a bad temper himself. Will Heinrich is a
OEOW INDIAN EESEEVATION. 1849
bad fighter, and Matt Tschirge is a bad man. Right now there is a fourth man
in with these three men. The fourth man that comes to assist these men is
Inspector Jenliins, from the Indian Department. I wonder if that inspector
was sent out here to inspect Indian affairs on this reservation through quarrels
or profane language. I wish that inspector was present right now, so that I could
talk to him right in front of his face, but he is not present at this time. We
call him the fence builder. Frank Heinrich, Will Heinrich, and Matt Tschirge
all carry an Army gun. They are dangerous weapons. If the bullets from this
gun slightly touch the ground they will go quite a ways. If Frank Heinrich and
his two relatives lay down their arms and go about just as though they were
in peace it would be better, but if they continue to carry arms there will be
trouble. Some of these days they will kill some of us. Mr. Scott, we are tired
of this on our reservation, and we want to get rid of Frank Heinrich.
Russell W. Bear. I have been deprived of standing before Maj. Scott and
present to him my grievance. To-day I am glad I have that chance. Mr. Scott
is our agent. He is sent here as our guardian to help us and assist us, but he
has not helped us a particle. I am a Crow Indian. If he has ever helped me
in a single instance I want him to tell me right now.
Mr. Scott. All right. Just a short time ago I wrote the Indian Office, asking
them to give. Russell an appointment. They replied by wire asking him if he
would accept position as disciplinarian at the Busby School. I asked Russell
about it. and he said he would take it, and I replied to the office to that effect
A few days later they wrote Russell that they could not consider him for that
place. It is Russell's record and not the superintendent that stands in his way.
Now, if you want any more I will give the record as I have it in the office.
Mrs. Grey. Tell him to do it.
Russell W. Bear. I will be glad to get all those papers that tend to blacken
my character.
Mr. Scott. It is quite a record.
Mrs. Grey. I will make it a part of the investigation.
Russell W. Bear. What has my character outside of the reservation anything
to do with the Crow Indian affairs?
Mr. Scott. It has to do with his own character and not with the reservation.
Russell W. Bear. Just right now I want to talk about what Mr. Scott has
not done for the Crow Tribe. We are talking about the entire Crow Tribe; we
are not talking about any one person, but if he wishes to darken my character
he can get up and do so. Frank Heinrich has caused a whole lot of trouble with
these Indians, and he has not assisted the Indians in any way. Now, there has
been some talk about the division fence of Frank Heinrich. but I want to talk
amout it some more. The agent is here to help all the Crow Indians. He is
supposed to help me and not to attack me personally.
Frank Bethune. If the agent wants to talk about every person in the Crow
Tribe and their individual character he can do so. I will also talk personally
with the agent about his character. Mr. Scott, please sit down; we want to talk
to you.
Russel W. Bear. If Mr. Scott does not like me to si^eak. I will sit down.
Mrs. Grey. I want to say that I am glad that you show me so much con-
fidence. As for what I am going to try to do, Mr. Scott said, you can only judge
what they are going to do by what they have done. That is one time I agree
with Mr. Scott, and I only say I am going to ti'y to do in the future pretty
near as much as I have done in the past. I won't promise to do as much be-
cause I don't believe I can. What I have tried all the time to do is to get yon
Crow Indians a chance to say what you want done. That is what I am going
to try to do in the future. Now, you remember last night when I came into
the tent down at the camp that Mr. Scott was attacking me. Just as soon as
I talked to him face to face and say what he says is not true, he takes it back.
There has been altogether too much of that going on and that is what is the
matter with the Crow Indians. They don't come out and say before your face
and give you a chance to answer, but the.v say it to your back, and when you
come they run. The kind of a man the Indian Bureau likes, and the major
likes is Frank Shively. You all know that he is drunk most of the time, both
here and at Washington. Commissioner Abbott knows he gets drunk, but he is
the kind of a man they like. So I am glad they do not like me. and Russell,
you can be glad they do not like you. Now. when I was in Washington I found
out some things that Russell had said. I wont go into it all now, but when the
investigation comes, I am goin to try to get the letter that Russell wrote the
Indian Bureau to E. P. Holcombe, that some things that were very, very bad
1850 CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION.
on the reservation be improved. I found Ids letter and on tlie outside of the
letter was a note by Mr. E. P. Holcombe, " File without action," and it was filed
and no action was taken, and he gave proof of very bad things that ought to
be looked into. Just a little while afterwards Senator Curtis, who has been our
strong gootl friend right through, sent for me. He said to me, " Here is a
letter from Russell White Bear and he is in jail, and I do not see why he should
be in jail for selling his dead allotment and I do not see how any Indian could
be fooled by selling his dead allotment." I think Miller bought the dead allot-
ment. Now, I think it would take somebody smarter than Russell White Bear
to fool Fred Miller by selling him a dead allotment on the reservation. I told
Senator Curtis about the charges that Russell made and he said, " I guess it
was the charges and not the dead allotment that is the matter with Russell."
I took Russell's part and went to the commissioner and Secretary and he got
out of jail and was given a flue position at Haskell. Now, that meant one of
two things, either they were very careless about making charges against Russell
or they were very careless about putting teachers at Haskell. Now, there are
other things here.
I am very glad that all of this has been taken down to-day. There are very
many things that have been said by Mr. Scott that I do not agree with, because
when I found things like this council in Washington that had been said here,
I said " That is not so." That is the reason they sent me here, and they have
sent Mr. Harris to be the judge and to see whether there is anything here or
not. Now, there are very many things, but I am going to take up but one
thing, as it is getting late. I am going to be on the reservation a long time.
There is a thing that is very near to your hearts — the allotment of the children
since 1906. One of you asked Mr. Scott to have your children allotted, and
Mr. Scott made his reply. It is written down in the records of this meeting.
Now, I am going to tell you about that, and it will be written down in the
records of this meeting. When this committee comes here they can read
what Mr. Scott has said, and they can read what I have said. Now, under
the act of 1904 Congress ordered that this reservation be allotted to the Crow
Indians. Your children are Crow Indians. When Congress made that order
it did not say to stop the allotment in 1910, 11, 12, or 13. It did not say any
time, but to go on forever as long as there are any children. The act did not
say to go on forever, but that is the custom on all the reservations like this,
where there is plenty of land and children being born, and so strong is the
wish of Congress that all the children be allotted every year and the rolls
be kept perfect that every year the Indian bill carries a great appropriation —
I think around a million dollars every single year — so that the Commissioner of
Indian Affairs and the agent may survey the land for the children that are
born, and that they allot them. Now, let me tell you what Maj. Scott added
to that. He said that we can not allot the children until we can get ready
to open the surplus land.
]Mr. Scott. No, I did not say at.
Mr.s. (iREY. Now. that is all 1 will t:;]k ;ib<!ut this. I want to talk in par-
ticular about the Heinrich lease. Heinrich has no lease on this reservation.
He has a permit. He had a lease the last time, a good, strong, well-drawn lease.
It was gotten by fraud. When I came here he was paying about $1,800 a
year for all that land up above the ID range — what we call the Heinrich pasture.
I don't believe he was paying that much, but that was as much as Mr. Dalby
could make it appear that he was paying. Now, you all remember my friend
Mr. Dalby. After several years I managed to get him out of the Covernment,
and within 20 days after he got out he became the attorney for Mr. Heinrich
in Washington. He is there yet. Now, Dalby was the one with Mr. E. P.
Holcombe, Mr. Abbott, and Maj. Scott who put through the lease that was
made, I think, three years ago. It is just the kind of a job you would expect
them to do. I have got the papers here, and when the committee conies I
am ready to show them how it was done. You Indians had always reserved
the ID range for your cattle. Frank Heinrich wanted that range. Mr. Dalby
was his attorney in Washington, and that lease was approved. He paid, I
think, if46,.SO0 a" year. That is the difference from $40,800 and $1,800. That
was what he offered. He knew he had that many cattle. The lease of the
ID range was approved in Washington before it was ]mt up to you Indians.
It could not be leased without your consent. So Connnlssioner Abbott wrote
to Mr. Scott to call those Indians together and get permission for this l(>ase.
That was after it was approved. I have got a copy of that letter with me.
CROW IXDIA2^ RESERVATION. 1851
Maj. Scott wrote back that the bad Indians were in the n.aioritv on this reser
vation and would not consent to this lease
Mr. Scott. Have you a copy of at letter''
Mrs. Grey. Yes.
Mr. Scott. I would like to see it
Mrs. Grky. You have seen it.
Mr. Scott. I wnnt to say I never wrote that letter
Mrs. Gray. That is a part of the Ben No Horse case.
n.^rin"thr;S.^;ir" ^'^'^ ' "^^■^^' ^^''^ ^^^ ^^^^ ^"^"-- -- ^" ^he
Mrs. Gray. So Mr. Abbott wired Mr. Scott not to do anvthins until Wv Wni
combe got here: that he would come out here and l^^l a cZac tint wmiM
gne the proper consent to making the ID lease: and to make i riA t lu^-e o
make the council right. Mr. Abbott wrote the minutes of the council nwj^h
Mr4oTT"l wonfd 'T''r' ""''''■ -'"''' ^^ "^^-^"^^^ them alon^'with him '"'^
^ui. »>coTT. 1 would nko to say a word.
Mrs. Gray. Just a minute. They were signed on the reservation as the ic
ual mmutes of the council, leasing the ID range, and that was the wav the IB
range was leased I had copies of the pai^rs made in the Indian Office aU
Ir Sco^T'The iTrnn^p' ^'^'^^'^\^? tj- ->--ittee when they'cZ hem
hJ^ n ^|iP ir> i-'ini^e was leased before I ever came to the country I
had no nng whatever to do with it. Mr. Holcombe has never been to this
reservation since I came here. ^ ^
f^j!!^7'/"^'''T'-^Z.^''^^' ''^ ^^^^ '"^ concerned. I know nothing Mbont it What I
find I found m the records at Wa.shington. and have them readv to present to
the committee when they come here. A good many of vou Indians savvou
never gave consent to the leasing of the ID range. Is not "that so" ^ ^
Blake T\ KITE Bear. Mr. Scott, when that letter came I was a clerk in the
^SZ'''''\7 ''^'i- ^^nV'T ^^'^^^ '"'-'' ^^"^^- ^^^"^^ I l^^i^dled and filed a he
hou'hV H ,f-; • ^^^ ''" ^ll^ ^'''^^''^'^■" t^^^^f^^^- '-'"^^ l^ave a council." and I
thought that It was proper that the Indians should know what the office was
doing Before that Big Medicine told me that if I knew anything L the oScI
to notify him and the Indian.s. and I did. and a day or two afterwards you
called me into the office and you .shut the door and used profane language and
said. Look here: I don't want you to tell anything that is going on in this
office; It not any of the Indians' business." He said. "You are holdin" a re-
sponsible position." and a few days after I went out of the office The Lord
help me; it is true. -i^j^u
Mr. ScoTT. That lease, as I remember it. was dated February 1 ]910 I
came to the reservation and took charge the 1st of July that year "
Mrs. Gray. I want to say to Blake that I did not'know Blake when I saw
lT^ I, ?t'?* '"''''' ^''.'^^- "" '"^^'■^' *^ *^^ ««^^^- There is a whole lot more,
Blake, that I have not told, is there not?
Blake White Bear. I have a copy of that letter
Mrs. Gray. That will all come out later. Now. I want to tell you about
telling the truth. I never saw Blake, and did not know him. Remember that
when you come to give testimony. I have come to it that I can get up before
a hundred men. I have done it more than once. Now I will go back to where
I stopped about the Heinrich lease. I think Mr. Yegen was the highest bidder
against Mr. Hemrich. and I think the lease should have been awarded to him
I have his protest to his attorney in Wa.shin.gton. That will be called to the
attention of the committee. Under the terms of Heinrich's lease as it was
made at that time, in 1910. he could not sublet any of his lease It Is written
m the lease that if he does sublet any part of his lease he forfeits his lease
\\hen_I was here two years ago I had a hearing in the office on Ben Spotted
Horses steer. I gue.-^s you all know about it. The steer had a brand on it
that made it look very much as though Heinrich was stealing Ben Spotted
Horses cattle. While we were discussing that, it came out in the hearing in
Mr. Scott s office that Charles Heinrich was subleasing from Frank Heinrich
1 called on the commissioner, in Washington, to cancel his lease because Hein-
rlc^h signed his agreement that if he subleased that it would be forfeited I
did not know at that time that Mr. Dana and Matt Tschirge and, I guess two
other men were running their cattle with Frank Heinrich's cattle Of course
your agent and your stock inspector both knew it. because Frank Heinrich
was shipping cattle all the time, and every brand is taken down, and it was
their duty to know every single brand that was shipped out or shipped in or
that was on the range. Now, instead of obeying the law and canceling Hein-
1852 CEOW INDIAN EESEEVATION. '
rich's lease, when the lease was made the last time — it was not a lease at all,
but it was a permit. Now let me tell you how a permit acts. Mr. Heiurich
can sublease all the land he wants to. He pays you, we will say, $48,000. I
think Heinrich realizes probably five times that much out of the lease, besides
running his own cattle. The Indian Bureau is absolutely opposed to that,
and I believe if Secretary Lane knew just this very one thing he would do
what he has the right to do, because Heinrich has a permit. He took his
chances on the permit. He has the right to cancel this permit right now If
he wants to. Now, that is one of the things that I want to try to prove that
Mr. Heinrich is subleasing and making money out of the lease, besides running
his cattle, and try to have his permit canceled, not next year but right now,
this fall.
Now, one thing more about Heinrich. Heinrich has no more right to carry a
gun and hold it up to an Indian than an Indian has to carry a gun and hold it
up to Mr. Scott. Not one bit more. If one of you Indians were to meet Mrs.
Scott in their automobile out on the road and search it for any of the cattle
that Mr. Heinrich branded for you and shoot her dog, you know what would
happen to you. You would be murdered right on the spot. Now, I tell you
Indians, they have no more right to hold up Mrs. Curley and shoot her dog
than you have to hold up Mrs. Scott and shoot her dog. Now, I want you to
help me prove the things I have heard. I have heard it all over the reserva-
tion that Heinrich goes in your houses and searches your wagons. He took
Amy Leider's husband up to Hardin, and they fined him $58, and he does not
know what it was for. They can not do those things. I know it is done, because
I have heard it over and over and over again. Different ones have told me.
I want to get a few cases I can prove positively and we will put them before
this committee and we will see if it can be done or can not be done. Because
Heinrich is doing those things is another reason why we should get together
and have him put off this fall. Now, there is another thing that Heinrich has
done that is enough to put him in the penitentiary, and if one of you Indians
would do it it would put you in the penitentiary. The law is the same for
Heinrich as it is for you, and that is he is branding the Indian cattle. The
Indians know they used to have some cattle, and they know they have been
mixed in Heinrich's herd, and they know they have no cattle now. That is
proof, because the cattle used to be here and they are not here now. They say
the Indians ate them, but the Indians did not know where they were, and I do
not see how they could have eaten them if they did not know where they were.
My experience is that you can not eat a steer until you find it. Now, over in
George Pease's corral he has a steer that has his brand on and that has the
antlers brand on. I am going to keep that steer. You Indians have hides that
have those brands on, and if you have them I want you to bring them in. You
bring them in and we will put them before the committee, and we will ask
them if they want a cattle stealer to stay on the reservation this winter. Now,
it is quite late and I will not talk any more, but there is a great deal more I
want to say. There are a great many things on the reservation I want to see
before the committee gets here. I will see a great many of you in your homes,
and I want you to write to me. I think if we all stand together there will be
some changes in this reservation after the investigation has been made.
TESTIMONY OF W. W. SCOTT— Resumed.
The Chairman. The Indians had not been consulted about the
building of that fence, and under the treaty they had the right to be
consulted, did they not?
Mr. Scott. If it should be held that that treaty did not authorize
the building of a cross fence, they should have been consulted.
The Chairman. What was your objection to their having an attor-
ney there, if they wanted one ?
Mr. Scott. Having what?
The Chairman. What was your objection to their having an attor-
ney there, if they wanted one?
Mr. Scott. Simply objecting to stirring up the Indians; creating
excitement on the reservation.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1863
The Chairman What excitement? They were all complaining
The council was called because of some complaint ^^mp^aining.
Mr hcoTT. A very few were complainincr. When anvone o-nes to
an Indian reservation to inquire into conditions invaHably thf ?e are
a few who have complaints to make That is inpv tnWo ,v.
community that woulJl be found. Those Se he'fnSs' 'who ^r^
heard; the Indians who are going along attending to their own biS!
co^mmrillV^^^^^^^^^^^ '^ -^^-' ^^y -^1-^- TherneH^r
Senator TowNSEND. While Mrs. Grev was on the reservation did
she do anything to prevent the children' from going oschoof"^ ^
Mr. Scott. Not to my laiowledge.
C1.0 T if'"''/.''''!?'''''"- ^'"^ y^" ^''^^ charge that she did do that-that
she talked to them and said that the superintendent d?d notliave
any/^^ithority to send the children to school «
Mr. Scott. I do not remember that I ever made a charge of that
kind. It has been reported to me that she said that.
whrardfd tierdoT" ^'" "'' ''^^ ''^ '^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ *« --k-
Mr. Scott. Nothing.
Senator Towxsexd. Did they remain right on their allotments «
Mr. Scott. No sir; they were travelin| around visiting holding
councils, and gathering in camps during the fall noiaing
wintTn "" ^°^^^^^«^^^^°- What is their condition for entering the
Mr. Scott. It is not good.
Senator Toavnsend. What is the trouble?
.^^^monf^;lS^^^
winter'^" Townsend. What are you going to do with them this
^ Mr. Scott. They are not in want. Those Indians have auite an
income from different sources. There are several hundledTi^^ate
leases m effect from which they get money We are se lino fn
herited Lands all the time, and tli proceeds afe being dWded aiton.
the Indiaiis. They are selling stock and getting nTonev from that
source. The tnbe is very closely related, atd as long ^s^one ind an
has anything they are al supplied. They are, by hiheritance and
mstmct. communists, and as long as on'e ha^ anything they all
brokTf """ ^^^^^^^^^^^- ^« you feel they are going into the winter
Mr. Scott. Practically ; yes, sir.
spring'^" '^^''^^^'^^^- ^^^' *h^^ y«^ have got to help them before
Mr Scott. I think I will have to help them. That is one of the
objects of my visit to Washington at this time.
Senator Townsend. To get help for them?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. About how much grain did they raise
X^XoU^aSe^^^ ^^^^ ^-'--^ -^ ^^' f--d abo^tir
I
1854 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Mr. Scott. I have not the figures in my mind.
Representative Stephens, Did you not keep any figures?
Mr. Scott. We have a record of all the grain raised.
Representative Stephens. Can you approximate how much they
raise ?
Mr. Scott. No; I can not.
Representative Stephens. How much hay did they bale — how
many tons of hay?
Mr. Scott. They do not bale hay.
Representative Stephens. What do they do with it?
Mr. Scott. They put it up in stacks and sell it in the stacks.
Representative Stephens. Have you any estimate of how much
they sell?
Mr. Scott. We have a record of how much they put up.
Representative Stephens. How much is that?
Mr. Scott. I do not know that I can even approximate that. We
keep an individual record, and on this we note the amount of hay
put up by each Indian.
Representative Stephens. Do they have as much as $1,000 worth
of hay?
Mr. Scott. Oh, yes ; many thousands.
Representative Stephens. How much?
Mr. Scott. I can not say.
Representative Stephens. Do they have as much as $1,000 worth
of grain?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Do they have any corn up m that
country ?
Mr. Scott. No, sir.
Representative Stephens. Wheat and oats?
Mr. Scott. Wheat and oats principally; they grow alfalfa very
largely.
Representative Stephens. Now, you can not even estimate as to
the value? i t t
Mr. Scott. I can not ; no, sir. There are several hundred Indians,
and there is. as I say, a record of how much each one has put up.
Every fall when the haying is completed we measure the hay of each
Indian, making a recorod of the kind of fence he has around it, so
that in case the hay is destroyed we will know what damages to ask.
Representative Stephens. Are the hay lands fenced?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir; generally.
Representative Stephens. And are the farming lands, what we
call the "irrigable" lands, fenced?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. The grazing land is not fenced i
Mr. Scott. The grazing land is not fenced.
Representative Stephens. This fence that you speak of as being
34^ miles in length cuts off the Indians' land, as I understand it, from
the leased lands; is that correct? , u •
Mr. Scott. No. sir: it divided Avhat has heretofore been held in
one range. ...
Repi-esentative Stephens. Following the old subdivisions ot the
reservation : and you have left some Indians in those six subdivisions?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. I855
Representative Stephens. What was the object of building the
fence— was It for any benefit to the Indians? xumg me
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. To what extent?
Mr. Scott. It keeps their cattle from straying into the mountains
and enables us to lease the land on the south side of the fence
^^Rq^resentative Stephens. Are there any Indians in the moun-
Mr. Scott. . Very few
Representative Stephens. Wait a minute, Mr. Scott. So you sav
It enables you to lease the land on the south side. I thought you
said awhile ago you had already leased the land to nSch ^for
three years, and that without a fence « ^^miica ror
Mr. Scott. That is true; but if we turned the Indian cattle in
there Hemrich would have to give up the entire lease; by fenc Wi^
he lues not have to. He can retain enough to run the stock that he
will hold. He shipped out very largely this fall ^
, Representative Stephens. Do you mean to say the new policv
inaugurated by the department of buying a large number of 3
made that fence necessary in the interest of the Indians ^
j^ Mr. Scott. 1 es, sir.
^n^rmSSI;;:?'^^^"^^^- ^'^ ^"^^^^ ^^^^^' - ^ -^-^-^ it, is
Mr Scott. No, sir; the summer range is in the mountains.
Repi^sentative Stephens. And that is the range that vou DroDo^^
to put the cattle on that you buy for the Indians.^ Is that coiS
^hpl^r^onf ' f?' '"'' ""'^ P'"''!'^"^ *^ l'"<^ ^^'^ ^^t^le that we buy for
tne Indians on the open range *^
ra^^'forT'"'"' ^^^'''^^^- What are you reserving the mountain
fn h!'i i^.T'^''- ^^f, ""? not reserving that. We are allowing the lease
to hold those on that portion of the range ^
fence^"'"'''^'^'''" ^''^^«^^^«- ^hen what is the object of building a
tho^W'the We.'"^^ '^" '^'''^ ^^ '''' ^-^-- f-- ---g -ith
Representative Stephens. Do you find that it gets up trouble be-
tween the Indians and the lessees if the stockmen's cattk get to the
farms and advance lands of the Indians? ^ .
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. How is it with reference to the Indian
stock trespassing upon the leased lands; does that get up trouble?
Jill'/,. ^''' %'' ^^'^'' *^'" '^^^^^^* ^^^h Indian f^amily is per-
Kd of cattle.''^"'' ''^''' range-that is, on the leased lands-ToO
Mn ScoTT^ Ye's^s'ir'''^'''' ^"^ ''''^ ""^ ^^'"^ ^^"'"'^ ^^^^ ^"^^"^<^-
Representative Stephens. Then what arrangement do you make
when they have over the amount permitted?
Mr Scott. We have never made any arrangement about it; that
thZtu "7^\"^fd^ ^J^y ch'-^^'ge, from the fact that so many of
«^em fall so far below that amount that the lessee has never de-
manded any reduction of his rental.
I
1856 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Representative Stephens. Then, in the aggregate, the Indians
have not as much stock as they would be entitled to under the con-
tract?
Mr. Scott. No, sir.
Eepresentative Stephens. Then, you have no complaint from that
source. The only complaint is that the cattlemen want to keep their
cattle away from the farms of the Indians; is that correct?
Mr. Scott, And away from the grazing land that is now reserved
for the Indians.
Representative Stephens. That is now reserved for the Indians?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Do the Indians object to that?
Mr. Scott. Some few object to the building of the fence; yes.
Representative Stephens. Do they have councils? Do the Indians
have any tribal arrangements, or was that all broken up,
Mr. Scott. They have their councils; yes.
Representative Stephens. Are those leases made irrespective of
the wishes of the Indians by the department?
Mr. Scott. No, sir; they are consulted. Wlien it is proposed to
malve a lease, the Indians are called together in council. The proposi-
tion is stated to them and they are asked to express their wishes in
the matter. Heretofore they have always consented that the Secre-
tary should lease their lands to the best advantage or interest of the
Indians.
Representative Stephens. When these leases now in existence were
made, were they consulted and did they agree to the terms of the
leases now existing?
Mr. ScoTT. No, sir.
Representative Stephens. Why were they made then over their
protest ?
Mr. ScoTT. They did not protest ; there was no protest filed against
them.
Representative Stephens. But they had no chance either to affirm
or authorize these leases now in existence, as I understand you?
Mr. Scott. They authorized the Secretary to lease the lands in his
discretion.
Representative Stephens. Have you a copy of one of those leases
that you could put into this record ?
Mr. ScoTT. Not here ; no, sir.
Representative Stephens. Does the department keep a duplicate
of it?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. You said it was on Form 5-731, Mr.
Heinrich's lease. Were all the rest on that form?
Mr. ScoTT. A lease is one form ; a permit is another.
Representative Stephens. I understood you to say that this was
not a permit, but a lease?
Mr. Scott. No, sir; it is a permit. Under the permits of that
form the department can retain any or all of a certain portion of
the range; under lease it might be different.
Representative Stephens. Then, this is a permit?
Mr. ScoTT. Yes.
Representative Stephens. Is it just a grazing permit by the head
or by the acre ?
OEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1857
Mr. Scott. Is it in Heinrich's case?
Representative Stephens. Yes.
Mr. Scott. It is a lump sum for the range.
Representative Stephens. For the use of a certain amount of
land?
Mr. Scott. That is my information.
Representative Stephens. That was to be cut off. AVas it in the
contract or lease that this should be cut off by the fence?
Mr. Scott. No, sir.
Representative Stephens. Who first mentioned it and who got up
that fence idea ; who suggested that first ?
Mr. Scott. The commission appointed by the Secretary and com-
missioner to formulate plans for running the cattle.
Representative Stephens. That was done, then, under the rules
and regulations of the Indian Bureau ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. That these commissioners were ap-
pointed ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Did these commissioners designate
where this fence should be put ?
Mr. Scott. They did ; yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. And the character and kind of a fence?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir. As I said awhile ago, they followed the speci-
fications contained in the treaty, providing for fencing the reserva-
tion.
Representative Stephens. Then it is strictly a fence built by the
department under the rules and regulations of the department, is it
not?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. And whether the Indians were con-
sulted or not, it would still be a legal fence, as far as the Govern-
ment is concerned, w^ould it not ?
Mr. Scott. It was built under the rules and regulations and terms
of the lease.
Representative Stephens. But it is not in accordance with the
treaty ?
Mr. Scott. I would say it was ; yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Has the fence been accepted?
Mr. Scott. No; it is not complete. It is not being built by con-
tract.
Representative Stephens. Who has the building of it?
Mr. Scott. By day labor. We purchased the material by making
bids. Then it is hauled out to the line in wagons, and men are em-
ployed to dig the holes, set posts, and string the wires, under the
supervision of an employee of our office.
Representative Stephens. You said that this body of land was
under lease for three years?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Is it a written lease — a recorded lease?
Mr. Scott. It is not recorded ; no.
Representative Stephens. It is a lease between the Government
and individuals?
1858 CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. It is a permit ; not a lease at all.
Representative Stephens. Does not the permit authorize the own- |
ers of the stock to use that land, for a sum of money, for a certain |
specified time ^
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Eepresentative Stephens. How much of that time is yet to run?
Mr. Scott. Two years.
Representative Stephens. One year has already passed?
Mr. Scott. That is, two years after the first of the coming month.
Representative Stephens. Part of the permit, then, is to the effect
that if the land is overstocked and injured at any time you have the
right to stop such injury to the land?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir; at any time.
Representative Stephens. Who is the person who interferes; who
has that authority? Do you have it?
Mr. Scott. I would have it.
Representative Stephens. Have the Indians ever complained to
you that the land was being overstocked?
Mr. Scott. There was a complaint some two or three years ago
that the Spear lease was overstocked.
Representative Stephens. Any other complaints?
Mr. Scott. No, sir; I have never had any complaints that any
other lease was overstocked. They have never been overstocked, and
consequently there has been no complaint.
Representative Stephens. You stated that these grazmg areas
were leased and not held under permits ?
Mr. Scott. Some of the contracts in effect are leases and some are
permits. To my mind there is not very much difference between a
lease and a perniit. It is simply a contract between the Government
and the party leasing the land or permitting.
The Chairman. Are you familiar with the form of lease that is
used by the bureau?
Mr. Scott. Oh. I have read them many times.
The Chairman. That lease contains an express stipulation that if
the lessee shall sublet anv part of the land that has been leased it
shall work a forfeiture of the lease. Did you Imow that?
. Mr. Scott. Some of them do ; I know that.
The Chairman. Do you loiow whether or not the leases that are
in force on that reservation are upon Form 5-371 ?
Mr. Scott. I do not ; I do not remember the form numbers.
The Chairman. You ought to know that a number of these lessees
were subletting. I believe you said Spear had sublet to a man by
the name of Simonson?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir. ^ j.-. t j-
The Chairman. Did you hear any complaint among the Indians
about that matter?
Mr. Scott. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you not know, as a matter of tact, that it is
quite general among them that a great many of them are complam-
intr about that ? Do you not Imow that that is one of the grounds of
complaint— that the administration of the agency has permitted the
subleasing by the lessees of large areas, in express violation of the
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1859
terms of the leased The hmgiiage of the lease form that I have re-
ferred to is as follows :
It is iilso expressly asi'eed between the p-'.rties hereto that ueitlier the lands
covered by this lease, nor any p:;rt thereof, sh.all he subleased or sublet in any
manner whatever without the written consent of the council siieaking for the
tribe, and the approval thereof by the Secretary of the Interior, and that any
violation of this provision shall ipso facto work a forfeiture of the lease.
Were those subleases approved by the Secretary of the Interior?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir. Oh, no; not the subleases; no. There has
never been a formal sublease filed with us at all.
The Chairman. Do you mean to say that you let Simonson, in
fact a sublessee, run sixty or seventy thousand head of sheep on that
range without even a formal sublease?
Mr. Scott. He has not run that many sheep on there.
The Chairman. You said, in answer to my question a while ago,
that you did know the Spears had subleased to a man by the name
of Simonson, and you corrected the name when I called it Simmons.
Mr. Scott. I know that.
The Chairman. You say, as a matter of fact, they have no formal
sublease?
Mr. Scott. I do net know whether the}'^ have a contract or not. I
am net sure. The contract is between themselves. "We have laiown
that Mr. Simonson was running sheep on Mr. Spear's lease.
The Chairman. When did you first learn that?
]\Ir. Scott. He has not sublet any part of the range.
The Chairman. W^hen did you first learn that Simonson was run-
ning sheep on Spear's lease?
Mr. Scott. That arrangement was in effect when I went to the
reservation.
The Chairman. Did you call it to the attention of the Secretary
of the Interior?
Mr. Scott. No; I did not.
The Chairman. Why did you not do that?
Mr. Scott. It never — because I thought the arrangement was un-
derstood.
The Chairman. You knew that they had no right, under the
written contract, did you not? Because you said you were familiar
with this form. You knew that if you did call it to the attention
of the Secretary of the Interior they would forfeit that lease?
Mr. Scott. My understanding of that provision is that the lessee
can not set aside portions of his lease for the use of other stock-
men. I do not understand that taking in a number of stock, whether
sheep or cattle, by the lessee, when he can do so without overstock-
ing the range, and allowing them to run these cattle over his rang-
is a viohition of that provision.
The CHAiR:\rAN. You think not?
^Ir. Scott. I have not so considered it.
The Chair:man. What do you think the purpose is of the Govern-
ment in putting that stipulation in the lease if it is not to prevent
the very thing that you are permitting? Under j^^our construction
of it. every man in jSIontana could put his sheep or his cattle on a
lease that was granted to Heinrich, provided they did not violate the
provision that they must not overstock the range. Is not that true ?
35G01— PT 15—14 4
1860 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Mr. Scott. To my mind, as long as the lessee does not turn over
his lease or any part of it to another man, he is not violating the
terms of his contract.
The Chairman. Do you not know that that is an evasion of that
provision in the lease to permit some one other than the lessee to
run his cattle or stock on the range? Do you not know that that
is the very object of that stipulation in the lease, to control who
shall run their stock on the range?
Mr. Scott. The lessee is responsible; he is responsible for the
treatment of the range. As long as he keeps the letter of the law
as to that, I do not feel that he has violated his contract. There
are times when the stock owned by the lessee will be a very small
part of the capacity of the range. I think that we could not ask
him to let the range lie idle when he might just as well have some
one come in there and help him to take care of it.
The Chairman. No; that is where I think you have made a very
grave mistake. Your idea is to give the greatest benefit possible
to the lessee
Mr. Scott. No, sir; the greatest possible benefit for the Indians.
The Chairman. How does it help anyone for you to encourage the.
lessee to cause others to bring their stock in there and consume the
range ?
Mr. Scott. Because, if he were not allowed to do that, he would
not pay what he does for the range.
The Chairman. How do you know that? Is it not equivalent to
permitting him to sublet the range to permit him or encourage him
to permit others to use the range and get the benefit of his con-
tract? Do you not think it w^ould be better to have a formal sub-
lease, so that you could know just what was going on?
Mr. Scott. We know what is going on. And, Senator, suppose
you lease a farm, and in 3^our contract you provide that you will
not sublet that farm or house or any property, if you please. There
is nothing in that lease that would preclude you from taking in
somebody in that house there, as long as
The Chairman. You think not?
Mr. Scott. So long as you could let some man come in and occupy
a part of it. You pay for the use of the property.
The (^HAiRMAN. I think your position is absolutely absurd and
in contravention to the only purpose that could be in the mind of the
Government in putting that stipulation in there. But that is a
matter of argument.
Senator Tow^nsend. Do you have many of those leases in that
wa.y? Is that a common thing?
Mr. Scott. No; it is not common. The one lease, that of the
Spear Bros., is the only one in that condition.
The Chairman. Do you not know that Heinrich is doing the same
thing all the time?
Mr. Scott. I think he is not, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know Mr. Harry Harris, the inspector
thnt visited out there this summer?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir; I do.
The Chairman. Did yon talk with him about the Henrich lease?
Mr. Scott. I had very little conversation with INIr. Harris. I
do not I'omember whether the subject of the Heinrich lease was ever
mentioned.
i
CKOW INDIAN EESERVATION. 1861
The Chairman. Did he call attention to the fact that Heinrich
was especially practicing the subletting system?
Mr. Scott. There may have been some conversation as to that;
I do not recall it.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, you told Heinrich that it
was your general policy to encourage this plan, did you not?
Mr. Scott. I think you misunderstood me. I did not intend to
say that we encouraged that. In fact, we would much prefer if
that was not done, and we discouraged it as far as possible.
Senator Town send. Do you not think that there are quite a num-
ber of those subleases in that way — call them by what name you
please ?
Mr. Scott. I think not.
Senator Townsend. Was the Heinrich lease cut down?
Mr. Scott. It will be on the 1st of February.
Senator Townsend. Is that because he had been subleasing part
of it?
Mr. Scott. No, sir.
Senator Townsend. That is not true?
Mr. Scott. No, sir; not at all. I want to say that I asked Mr.
Heinrich only a short time ago if he had any arrangement under
which anyone was running stock on his range, and he assured me
very emphatically not. And, as I say, I have a great deal of con-
fidence in Mr. Heinrich.
Kepresentative Stephens. Is this 34^ miles of fence that you men-
tioned sheep proof, so that sheep can not get through it ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. It is wire fence?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Do stock in that country, such a cattle
and horses and sheep, drift during the cold storms and blizzards that
you have in that country and mix Avith other stock?
]Mr. Scott. Oh, yes. Well, they drift more in pleasant weather,
I think, than in storms. In storms they get into the brush as far as
possible.
Representative Stephens. Would this fence prevent the mixing of
the Indians' cattle and Heinrich's or other persons' cattle and sheep ?
]Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. In that way it would be a benefit to the
Indians as well as to the owners of the lease?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir. To my mind, it would be impracticable to
run a herd of the size that we expect to put in there for the Indians
\)n the same range with the Heinrich cattle. Another thing: If we
put those cattle in there on the same range, jSIr. Heinrich would be
obliged to pull out, and we Avould lose perhaps the cost or more than
the cost of that fence every 3^ear.
Representative Stephens. You have been in that range country a
long while?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Is it not a fact that the men who use
the public douiain usually have Avhat they call drift fences to prevent
the mixing of stock, the intermingling of stock ?
Mr. Scott. That is very common.
k
1862 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Representative Stephens. Do you remember several years ago
that quite a (xnitroversy arose between the public hind office here
and the persons who control the public lands and the men who had up
those fences, and they w^ere required to take them down?
Mr. Scott. I remember that that w^as the case. I Avas at the time
a special agent of the General Land Office, and in the only case in
wdiich I remember to have been concerned, I reported favorably in a
case of that kind, saying that the fence that had been constructed
was not upon public land, and so far from being an injury, it was a
benefit to the settlers in that community. That was in eastern Colo-
rado.
Eepresentative Stephens. And it is still a recognized fact among
the range men that these fences are a benefit to the range as well as
to the people who own the cattle in that country, to prevent the
mixing of herds ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir ; it is a very common practice.
The Chairman. There is a stipulation in the lease that I observe
here, on the form that I referred to a while ago — and I know of no
other form — 5-371, to the effect that "the number of cattle
to be grazed on the territory described shall be limited to
head, and that any excess of 10 per cent over and above such number
for a period of 30 years at any one time shall ipso facto work a for-
feiture of the lease."
If that is a fact, that some of these lessees are running three or
four times as many as the maximum to be allowed, on the theory
that they are entitled to run an average number, that would work a
forfeiture of the lease at the option of the Government, I take it;
that is, considering that lease w^as in the form that I referred to
here. I notice in the grazing permit that there is an express stipu-
lation that the permittee shall not ask any rebate on account of not
having run the full number of stock that he is authorized to run.
Mr. Scott. That is, not having stocked the range up to the
minimum.
The Chairman. Up to the maximum?
Mr. Scott. Up to the minimum.
The Chairman. There can be no minimum. If he did not run
more than one, the Government could not be hurt by that. The
Government w-ould not object if he saw fit to run the range at the
maximum, running 25,000 head of cattle, or if he saw fit to run 25.
It Avould be foolish to put a minimum limit in there.
Mr. Scott. Under a recent advertisement for bids on one of our
ranges it is stated that they shall not run more than a specified
amount, a stipulated number of head at any one time.
The Chairjian. And if they do run 10 per cent more than that for
80 days they forfeit their lease?
Mr. Scott. The lease has never been made up under that advertise-
ment, so I do not know what the specific provisions Avill be.
Senator Townsend. Has he identified that lease?
The Chairman. No; he states it was made on a lease form, and I
have saved that question by assuming that this is the form. Of
course, Ave Avill get copies of the lease.
Mr. Scott. It Avas made on a form provided by the department.
While Ave do the clerical work, the contract is approved in the Indian
Office, and the terms.
CROW INDIAN KESEKVATION. 1863
The Chairman. I want to pass now from the leasing matter to
some other matters. What is the condition on that reservation with
reference to drinking among the Indians, Mr. Scott? Do von have
much clriinkenness ?
Mr. Scott. We have ^ery little drunkenness for a reservation of
that size and location.
The Chairman. You are not troubled much by intoxication amonff
the Indians f ^
Mr. Scott. Not a great deal.
The Chairman. Have you any prosecutions pending now that
you knoAv of? x ^ «i,
ft
Mr. Scott, les, sir; we have two or three men under bond.
Ihe Chairman. What is the disposition of the Crow Indians with
reference to drinking? Are many of them disposed to drink «
Mv Scott. Xo; a very small proportion of them. I am much
gratihed to be able to say that there is less drunkenness amono- the
Crov,s noAv than I have ever known, and I am satisfied that tlfe re-
tormation is due very largely to a sentiment worked up amono- the
Indians themselves against it. There is quite a strong sentiment
against drmkmg on the reservation, and the Indians have some
pretty prompt measures to suppress it.
The Chairman. If it becomes general, you will have very little
trouble with liquor, where the Indians themselves are opposed to it
or the greater number of them. As to the schools: V^liat are the
school facilities on that reservation ?
Mr. Sxott. The school facilities are greater than the demand.
Ihe Chairman. What is the school population among the Crow
Indums?
:Mr. Scott. Something less than 300.
The Chairman. What schools have you ?
Mr. Scott We have two boarding schools maintained bv the Gov-
ernment. Ihere is one boarding school maintained by the Catholic
mission, also one day school maintained bv that npssion; two day
schools maintained by the Baptist Home Mission Society and one
maintained by the American ^Slissionarv Society.
The Chairman. What is the number of pui)ils in each of those
schools, approximately ?
Mr. Scott. The boarding schools, each of them, have approxi-
mately oO pupils. Ihe day schools will run about from 20 to 30.
^■1 ^"^^ ^"^^^ ^ number of pupils in our reservation schools.
Ihe Chairman. What is the total number in the schools on the
reservation ?
Mr. Scott. I could not say without figuring it up. I know just
about the enrollment of each school. I have never figured it up' ex-
actly. ("After a calculation.] We have an enrollmeirt of about 267.
The Chairman. State, as briefly as you can, but as clearly as possi-
ble, what IS taught m the boarding schools and the progress that is
bemg made?
Mr. Scott. Instruction is given up to the sixth grade, following as
clo-ely as possible the course of study laid down by the State school
board.
The Chairman. How high do they go in the boarding school?
Mr. Scott. To the sixth grade.
I
1864 CROW INDIAN EESEEVATION.
The Chairman. Do they teach agriculture there? Do you give any
instruction in farming?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The CiiAiRiNrAN. Any instruction in domestic science or housekeep-
ing, or anything of that sort ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How do the pupils take to those studies?
Mr. Scott. They are very apt. We keep them until they are 18
years of age. They are sent out to a nonreservation school, such as
Carlisle.
The Chairman. How many pupils could you accommodate in the
reservation schools, including the Catholic institutions?
Mr. Scott. About 400 pupils. That includes the capacity of the
mission schools.
The Chairman. What are the genei'al health conditions among the
Crow Indians?
Mr. Scott. The health conditions are good, except that many of
them are affected with tuberculosis, and trachoma is quite prevalent.
The Chairman. What percentage of them do you think have
tuberculosis ?
Mr. Scott. It is hard to say. A physician, a tuberculosis specialist,
who was there three years ago, made the statement that he thought
that 90 per cent were affected to some degree.
Senator Townsend. Not with tuberculosis?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir. In most of those cases the disease was only
latent and the lesions were closed and the disease had apparently
been overcome. My impression is that the percentage of those who
have tuberculosis to a noticeable degree is rather small. Yet a
tubercular test will disclose the fact that they have been or are
subject to the disease.
The Chairman. What percentage have trachoma, if you know?
Mr. Scott. A small percentage ; a very small percentage have it in
a noticeable degree, but a great many more have the disease in an
incipient form.
The Chairman. AVhat medical facilities are you provided with
on that reservation?
Mr. Scott. AVe have three physicians. One is located at the
agency, having as his district the Litte Bighorn Valley across the
entire width of the reservation. Another is located at St. Xavier
Mission, having the Bighorn Valley. The third is located down
on the west end of the reservation, at the Prior boarding house or
farm headquarters. That physcian is also the district farmer.
The Chairman. What is being done on that reservation to prevent
the s])read of tuberculosis and trachoma? Have you any special
facilities, any hospitals, or anything of that kind? M
Mr. Scott. We have a hospital; yes. ■
The Chairman. Is that a school hospital or a reservation hos-
pital ?
Mr. Scott. Both. It is open to all; all members of the tribe.
The Chairman. How many patients attend it on an average? i
Mr. Scott. Very few. AVe have in there, probably, on an averag^e, |
three or four patients. AVhenever we can get a tuberculai- patient in
the jtdvanced stages of the disease to come in and stay we provide
hiui with a box tent for the purpose of having him near the physician
CKOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1865
who can do what may be done for liini and to isohite him and to pie-
vent the spread of the disease, sneh as wonkl result if you would live
at home.
Kepresentative Stephens. What is the capacity of the hospital '.
Mr. Scott. AVe have a capacity of only half a dozen.
Representative Stephens. Do you have more than that on your
ha rids at once?
Mr. Scott. Very seldom v.e have to turn anyone away. The In-
dians will net go to a hospital if they can help it. However, they
are i^atronizine; the hos])ital now more freely than e\ er before, and 1
have noticed a very decided tendency to come to the hos]Htal in con-
finement cases.
Representative Stephens. What is the cost of this box-tent hos-
pital that you speak of?
Mr. Scott. About $30. We put a wood floor there and then box
up the side, and we put in a stove and a few pieces of furniture; the
object, of course, is to give them the benefit of all the fresh air p< s-
sible. We think it is better for them and certainly better for others
with whom they might come in contact, and keep them separated.
Representative Stephens. That hospital is at the agency, is it?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Do the Indian pupils attend the public school on
that reservation?
Mr. Scott. Very few. The public-school authorities decline to
admit them.
The Chairman. On the theory that they are not entitled to admis-
sion ?
Mr. Scott. On the theory that they are not entitled to the privi-
leges of the public schools. The Attorney General takes the ground
that a pupil can net be an Indian and a white man at the same time,
and that as long as they are members of the tribe they are Indians,
and are net entitled to the privileges of the public schools.
The Chairman. Do any of the Indians pay a county school tax?
Mr. Scott. Yes ; we have a few of wdiat we call fee-patent Indians.
Very few of them, however, have any property, any taxable property.
They pay very little tax.
The Chairman. Notwithstanding they pay a school tax, they are
barred from the schools; that is, their children are barred?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And that is under the decision of your State offi-
cials in charge of the matter?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
RejK-esentative Stephens. Are these same men voters and capable
of holding office?
jNIr. Scott. They would be; yes, sir. We have no voting precinct
on the reservation.
Representative Stephens. But they would be entitled to vote?
Mr, Scott. They would be entitled to vote; yes, sir. That is, a
certain portion of them.
The Chairman. Going back again, and perhaps for the last time,
to the Heinrich lease, you said a wdiile ago that you were instructed
to make that on a lease form furnished by the bureau?
1866 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Mr. Scott. We were instructed to make out the lease on a form
furnished by the bureau ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, you did not make a lease, at
all: you made a. grazing permit, did you not?
Mv. Scott. I can net recall.
The Chairman. Look at the instrument which I hand you, which
is a pait of the record in the files of the Bureau of Indian Affnirs,
and see whether that is the lease made November 8, 1912, to Hein-
rich, on lands on the Crow Reservation [handing paper to the wit-
ness] .
Mr. Scott. This is a grazing permit. Yes, sir; that appears to
be the instrument.
The Chairman. That was signed by you, as superintendent, and
Heinrich ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And j^ou did not make it on the form that the
commissioner instructed 3'ou to make it on, did you?
Mr. Scott. I am unable to say, but my recollection is that we did.
I know the instrument was forwarded to the office and approved by
them.
The Chairman. You were sure, when I first asked you about it,
that it was a lease and not a permit, were you not?
Mr. Scott. It is very hard to remember. We have half a dozen of
those leases or permits.
The Chairman. How do you know whether the others are leases
or permits?
Mr. Scott. I do not knoAv.
The Chairman. You do not know, do you?
Mr. Scott. No, sir. As I say, I think in effect there is no differ-
ence, the effect of the lease being governed by the terms of the con-
tract ; or, in the case of a permit, the same thing.
Senator Lane. What date does that begin?
The Chairman. It was executed November 8, 1912, and took effect
E'ebruary 1, 1913, and expires February 1, 191G.
Senator Lane. There was some complaint about the date being
changed to the worst time of the year for a new lessee to move his
cattle on, in the midwinter when he could not drive and have range
grass; and it would also be a bad time for the old lessee to get out.
There was some complaint handed in that it effectually prevented
any new man from making a bid, that he could not get there in mid-
winter with 20.000 head of cattle; that it is a hard game.
Mr. Scott. May I say that no one would think of stocking a range
out there at that time of the year; but having the lease take effect
at that time, they can make their preparations to put their stock on
in May, early in May, as we expect to do next year.
Senator Lane. It is claimed also that the holder of the lease, being
already there, would claim that it was unjust to make him get off on
the 1st of February, and that the new lessee would be paying rent
for land which the old lessee would be using. One could not get off
iind the other could not get on. You would have a kind of a plea
in equity, for the man already there to remain longer and continue
indefinitely, for the reason that you are asking him to do an impos-
sible thing under the terms of that lease.
CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1867
Senator Totn'nsend. How did it happen to be on that date?
Mr. Scott. I do not know.
The Chairman. Who did fix the date?
Mr. Scott. It Avas fixed in the Indian Ofiice.
Senator Lane. Was it not on your recommendation?
Mr. Scott. No, sir; it was not.
Senator Lane. Were there any complaints made to yon about it
by cattlemen?
Mr. Scott. The lessees themselves ha^e made complaint on the
ground that you state: tliat they could not g-et out there that time of
the year. I think the complaint is not well taken, for the fact that
they will know several months ahead whether they are going to have
the lease again, and they can make their arrangements accordingly.
The Ch.air3ian. When did the old lease expire, Mr. Scott?
Senator Lane. About July, was it not, or June 1?
Mr. Scott. No, sir; my impression is that the old lease expired
the same time, and that other leases were made to expire on Febru-
ary 1, so that all would take effect and expire simultaneously.
r Senator Lane. July 1?
' Mr. Scott. I am not familiar with it.
Senator Lane. Mrs. Grey says she can explain, if you want to
hear it.
I The Chairman. Certainly.
IMrs. Crey. The change was made after the hearing here in Con-
gress. The amounts were raised, and instead of letting them in
July, it was changed from July to February. There was only one
which tliey extended for seven months for less than they liad been
doing before.
The Chairman. I see here a lease in the files, commencing July
1, 1911, and expiring January 31, 1914.
Mr. Scott. The present lease on Range No. 3 was made for two
yo.irs and seven months.
The Chairiman. Why?
Mr. Scott. In oi-der to make it expire with the others.
The Chairman. What is the benefit of having them expire at that
time of year?
Mr. Scott. What was the object in doing that? I am unable to
say, sir.
The Chairman. You had nothing to do with that?
Mr. Scott. I had nothing to do with that.
The Chairman. That was pursuant to a policy established in the
office, I take it, from your statement?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Under the terms of the Heinrich lease in force —
that is, the one that is now in force — I find the following :
a minininm avernge number of 1,500 liearl of cattle with the privilege of
inf Tensing this nuuiber to a niaxinuun of 1.800 head for a period of three years
from February 1, 1913, to February 1, 1.916, at the rate of $2.25 per head per
annum, etc.
Senator Lane, Is that hundred or thousand head?
The Chairiman. One thousand and eight hundred in this par-
ticular lease.
Mr. ScoTT. That is range No. G.
1868 CKOW INDIAN KESEKVATION.
The CHAiKMAaN. I also find this provision in the lease relating to
the application of the lessee, or permittee, rather :
Ask no credit or rebiite in ctis^e tlie full niunber of stock is not grazed under
this permit; but if the number is exceeded, without previous authority therefor,
the permittee agrees and shall be required to pay, in addition to the regular
ch;!i-ge as provided in the permit, a penalty equal to 25 per centum thereof for
such excess of stock, and to pay for calves —
And so forth.
Have you collected ai\ything from these lessees on account of their
running a number in excess of the number authorized by the lease ?
Mr. Scott. Ko, sir ; we have not.
The Chaikman. The stipulations in the permit are not the same as
those in the lease, are they?
Mr. Scott. There is some difference in the form, I believe.
The Ciiair:man. Can you say Avhy the permit form was used in-
stead of the lease form after you were instructed to make it on the
lease form?
Mr. Scott. The impression I have is that that form was used, hav-
ing in view the probable necessity of canceling the lease as to part, or
possibly as to the whole, of the range. I am satisfied that that fol-
lowed the instruction of the office as to the blank form upon which
that lease was written.
Senator Lani:. I think I remember your having written in for in-
structions, or your having had some correspondence about it.
Mr. Scott. There w^as some correspondence. I did not personally
draw the lease. It was drawn by the office.
Senator Lane. I think you recommended it for some reason or
other ; I do not Imow what it was.
Representative Stephens. I would like to ask if you can furnish
the commission with the record of the instructions you had from the
department ?
Senator Town send. They are on file with the department.
Representative Stephens. Could you furnish them?
Mr. Scott. I could, so far as they are shown on our records — my
correspondence with the office?
Representative Stephens. Yes. Did they furnish you with a
statement of what they should put in that permit or lease?
Mr. Scott. They instructed us generally as to the terms of the con-
tract. We drew up the lease, following as nearly as possible the in-
structions received, and submitted it to the office for approval. The
lease was not binding at all ; it was not complete until approved by
the Secretary of the Interior.
Representative STEPIIE^s. And they approved your vrork?
Mr. ScoTT. Yes, sir.
The Chairman, You were instructed to take that lease to Hein-
rich, which was made for something over $3,000. Your instructions
from the department, as appear from your letter of November 8,
1912, were to take it for not less than $8,000. It appeai-s from the
Bame letter that you said :
After a full investigation, it was deterniiued that this district could not
carry the amount of stock contemplated. The error was made by including in
the acreage estimate all the allotted land. In that district, deducting this
amount, we have an acreage of only 30,000 acres. There are, moreover, a large
number of Indian cattle whose range is in that district, and it is found the
usual estimate of 20 acres to each animal will be the maximum number whicb
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1869
would be placed on the r;.ni:e. Tbis ranse wus leased at one time for $8,000
to Mr. Edwards, and lie found it impracticable to run a sutticient amount of
stock to justify the payment of that amount, and arranged with Spear Bros.
Cattle Co. and Mr. Ileinrich to take the le;ise off his hands. Both Speir Bros,
and Heinrich assert that they have lost money on the range, and do not feel
that they can take it at the minimum mentioned.
So that that lease was made for a gi-^at deal less than it had been
leased to EdAvards, for the reasons which you have stated ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir; that was a correct statement of the case. I
wrote that letter personally.
The Chairman. The amoimt of the lease is govei-ned by the num-
ber of cattle that are on it; is that true? It is so much per head?
Mr. Scott. Sometimes it is computed on a head basis and some-
times in a lump sum for a given i-ange.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, in all of these leases that are
lOw in force, the Spear Bros.' lease and the Heinrich lease, is it not
t,rue^that it is stipulated that the rate shall be, in the Spear lease,
$2.57 per head per annum for eacli and every head of cattle grazed
on district Xo. 2, and in the Heinrich lease, for grazing district No.
6, at the rate of $2 per head per annum for eacli^and every head of
cattle grazed on said district Xo. 5 in excess of the maximum number
stated above^ There seems to be a discrepancy there in the number of
the district.
Mr. Scott. Xo. 5 is the Heinrich district. It is known as the ID
range also.
Senator Lane. Why is it called " ID '' ?
jSIr. Scott. Indian Department.
The Chairman. If it is true that these lessees have been running
tmder their leases a number of cattle far in excess of the number
which they contracted to run, they should pay, in addition to the
amount that they are paying, a stipidated sum per head for the excess
numljer. Is not that true ?
Mr. Scott. Yes. sir.
Representative Stephens. I want to ask you if you know, or
whetlier it has been reported to you by any of your employees, that
they are running a number of sto'^ck in excess of the lease?
Mr. Scott. Xo, sir. As I stated a Avhile ago, we have a record,
which is as nearly correct as we can possibly make it. of the number
of cattle lirought in and shipped off from each range. In addition
to that, we have the sworn statement of the cattle firms as to the
number they have run. The practice is to allow them to pay their
stipulated sum. assuming that there has been no overstocking, the
first payment: then, at the end of the year, if their sworn statement
and our records show that the number has been exceeded, then they
are to pay the excess.
Representative Stephens. You say that the cattle are brought
in and you have a chance to number them. Do you actually num-
ber them when they are brought into the range and shi]>ped off?
Mr. Scott. They are shipped in. We know^ the numbers; yes.
Representative Stephens. How do you know that?
Mr. Scott. We have a man to watch the unloading. He counts
the cars, and knoAvs how many cattle are in a car.
Representative Stephens So when they are shipped in or shipped
out you count the cars, and you know the number of cattle coming
1870 GROW INDIAiV [{ESl<:riVATION.
in and going out of the range, and your records do not disclose at
any time an excess in the amount named in the lease?
Mr. Scott. Not on an average.
Senator Lane. Do they ever come in in any other way than by
train? Do they ever drive them on foot?
Mr. Scott. No, sir.
Senator Lane. None at all?
Mr. Scott. I think not.
Eeprcsentative Carter. Does the railroad run into the pasture?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. They are unloaded in the pens, right in-
side of the pasture?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir. The railroad track is practically the dividing
line between the Spear and the Heinrich leases.
Representative Carter. And they have a station there and cattle
pens, where they unload them?
]Mr. Scott. They have a number of stations.
Representative Carter. Do you have a man to watch each one of
these stations?
Mr. Scott. Yes. They seldom unload at more than one point in
one day. When it happens that they are unloading at different
points Ave have different men to go and supervise the work.
Senator Lane. Do they notify you when the cattle are coming?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. That is the way you ascertain?
Mr. Scott. We have such an agreement, and also with the rail-
road company, to notify us when cattle are loaded or unloaded.
Senator Toavnsend. Have there been any payments made, to your
knowledge, to the Government for excess stocking there ?
Mr. Scott. Not to my knowledge.
The CiiAiRMxVN. It would be collected through your office, would
it not?
Mr. Scott. Yes. sir. Wiat I mean is that there has never been ;in
excess payment so far as I knov/. I know there has not during my
administration.
The Chairman. It is clear that the only reason for the Govern-
ment's ])utting in those leases or permits the minimum number to be
run is so that the total amount that shall be paid under the lease
shall not be less than what they think the smallest amount should be
for which the area should be leased. Tliat is the reason for the mini-
mum number of cattle. I find from the department letter to you, of
date July 13, 1912, that you were instructed as folloAvs:
On district No. 2 tlie same eoiDiii'.iiy offers .$2.57 per heiul for ;ivei'age ninnber
of cattle grazed, and requests tbnt the mininmni be reduced to S 211 bead, and
the nla^-inu^nl to 9 211 bead, as opi^osed to lO.OOO minimum .nnd 11.000 maximum,
wbicli is now tbe e.stimated cai);tcit.y of tbis district. It is recommended tbnt
the bid be accepted and tbe reduction made as requested.
If that area, district No. 2, had been leased pursuant to these direc-
tions, it could not have brought less than $16,122. What was it actu-
ally leased for?
Mr. Scott. I do not remember the figures.
The CiiAiRisrAN. As a matter of fact, it was leased for less than
Mr. Scott. Now, let me say that thei-e is always a great deal of
sparring and bargaining at the time these contracts are made. We
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1871
endeavor to get everything possible out of them. The lessee, of
course, tries to make the most favorable bargain he can, and in every
case there is more or less correspondence and suggestions of changes
that should be made in the specifications.
The Chairman. Do you know what they are actually paying?
Are they paying any more than the minimum?
Mr. Scott. JSo, sir.
The Chairman. They never have paid any more than the min-
imum ?
Mr. Scott. No, sir.
The Chairman. So, as a matter of actual practice, the minimum
number governs the amount of the runs, no matter how many of them
actually run?
^Ir. Scott. In case the statements and the records at the end of
this jear show that they have run more than their allowance, then
they will pay more. It is understood that the number to be paid for
IS the yearly average. We can not get at that until the close of the
year. Consequently, they are allowed to pay their min.mum, the
first payment, that is, at the beginning of the year. They ])ay six
months in advance, and then the adjustment has to be made with the
second payment, which is now due within a few days.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, are the adjustments always
based upon the average number or the minimum number?
Mr. Scott. The adjustment will be made on the average number.
It will be made, as I say, at the end of the year.
The Chairman. On the average number?
Mr. Scott. On the average number for a run during the year.
. The Chairman. So that if they have, as a matter of fact, run a
little more than the average number, or a great many more than the
average number, your ottice has no knowledge of it, and j^ou only
collect the average number?
Mr. Scott. At the end of the year?
The Chair:man. Yes.
]Mr. Scott. But we will have knowledge of it.
The Chairman. How^ do you know^ you will?
I^lr. Scott, Because we keep a record of the cattle that are brought
in and those that are taken out. We have that record, and it is sup-
plemented by the sworn statement of the lessee. We can not go very
far wrong.
The Chairman. Not unless he wished to lie about it.
Mr. Scott. They must bring their cattle in by rail. There are no
markets in the immediate neighborhood.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, you take their representation
as to what they bring in, do you not? You do not go down to the
pens and count the stock?
;Mr. Scott. W^e do not count the stock ; w^e count the cars.
The Chairman. You count the cars?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Tow^nsend. Supposing your records disagreed. Do they
ever disagree?
Mr. Scott. I do not remember that there has been any disagree-
ment to amount to anything.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, do you not rely on them to
furnish you with the information as to how many cattle they bring
in?
1872 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Mr. Scott. No, sir.
The Chairman. You do not undertake to check them up, do you ^
Mr. Scott. We do, absolutely. i
Representative Carter. You say you do not remember whether
your records disagree or not?
Mr. Scott. So tar as I know, they do not.
Representative Carter. Do you not think you would probably re-
member it if they did disagree ?
Mr. Scott. I think I would. If our record showed that they had
brought in a greater number than they were allowed to run, then we
would require either proof that our record was wrong, or payment
for the excess number.
Representative Carter. Has that ever been done?
]Mr. Scott. No, sir. We have never required them to pay any-
thing, and our records have never shown that they had more cattle
than they were entitled to.
Representative Carter. That is where we wanted to get a positive
statement, and your answer was that you did not remember.
Mr. Scott. What I mean, sir, is that there may be a small differ-
ence. For instance, a car may contain from IG to 20 animals, owing
to the size of the stock.
Representative Stephens. Owing to the length of the car, too?
Mr. Scott. The cars are generally the same size, but the difference
in the number would be so small as to be almost immaterial, and
they would probably not change the total.
Representative Stephens. I want to find out how you make your
records. Tell us, Mr. Scott, how you make up tliese records.
Mr. Scott. The superintendent of live stock meets every train that
comes in — everv stock train. He counts
Senator Lane. How far is that from the reservation, before you
get anv further?
Mr. "Scott. There are several loading pens extending nearly across
the reservation, probably 15 or 20 miles apart.
Representative Carter. How far is the farthest one from the office
in which the superintendent of live stock has his office? He has his
office at the agency?
Mr. Scott. Yes. sir.
Representative Carter. How far is the farthest loading station
from the agencv?
I^Ir. Scott, they usuall yload no farther south than the Little
Horn loading station.
Representative Carter. How far is that?
Representative Carter. About 30 miles south of the agency.
Representative Carter. How far is the farthest one?
ISIr. Scott. That is the farthest one.
Representative Carter. There is no other beyond that?
Mr. Scott. There is no other on the reservation that is ever used.
Representative Carter. Do they ever unload off the reservation,
beyond that ?
JNIr. Scott. No, sir; they do not.
Representative Carter. Go ahead and tell lis about it.
llr. Scott. They do not unload and drive on to the reservation.
Then we have the" farthest loading pen in the other direction to the
north. It is 12 miles north of the agency.
Representative Carter. How many loading pens are there?
CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1873
Mr. Scott. There are six.
Eepresentative Carter. Your live stock agent goes to the pen when
they unload and he puts that number down on a book, does he not?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Eepresentative Carter. What is the next thing he does then?
Mr. Scott. He makes a written report to the office of the number of
cattle unloaded, the date, and by whom, and the point where un-
loaded.
Representative Carter. And the pasture they go into?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Are they required to inspect them to
see whether they have ticks on them or not, in order to avoid the
Texas fever?
Mr. Scott. They have to stand an inspection by the State officer
before they are shipped.
Representative Carter. Do you transfer that to another record in
your office, or do you keep that as the record?
Mr. Scott. We transfer that to another record.
Representative Carter. And do you report that to the Commis-
sioner of Indian Affairs or is that the end of the report?
Mr. Scott. That is the end of the report.
Representative Carter. You use about the same process as regards
cattle going out?
Mr. Scott. Exactly.
Senator Lane. Do you make a report in any other way as to the
number in and out of those cattle to the department ?
Mr. Scott. We do at the end of the year. We will make a report
in case it shows an excess.
Senator Lane. Otherwise, no report?
Mr. Scott. Otherwise we do not.
Senator Lane. You say nothing more about it ?
Ml'. Scott. No, sir.
Representative Carter. Do you keep these records also for cattle
in pastures where you have a lump sum required?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir; wo keep a record of all cattle received on the
reservation and of all cattle shipped off of it.
Representative Carter. No matter whether the pastures are rented
by the head or by a lump sum?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. Then you ought to be able to tell from
your records exactly whether the pastures have been overstocked or
not?
Mr. Scott. We can.
Senator Toavnsend. Do you keep any track of the calves born?
Mr. Scott. No, sir.
Senator Townsend. For instance, here is a three-vear lease— — -
Mr. Scott. No, sir; we can not do that.
Senator Toavnsend. Is not the herd increased materiallv bv the
birth of calves?
Mr. Scott. On the ITeinrich lease the herd is increasing. He
depends on the increase rather than buying and shipping in. " Spear
Bros, do not. They ship out close every fall and restock in the
spring.
1874 CROW INDIAl^Q IIESEEVATIOX.
Senator Toavnsend. How do you find out how many cattle there
are on a ran^e where they depend upon the natural increase for th"
supply of cattle?
Mr. Scott. We have what is called a branding round-up ever„
spring. That round-up is made by the cattlemen, who start out
waeons and they brand all calves. With each Avagon we have a
representative, an Indian, who goes along, sometimes two or three
of them, who go along with the wagon to see that the branding is
honestly done, and to see that no Indian calves are branded, and to
make a tally of the number of animals branded.
Senator Lake. Is he an employee of the agency, this Indian?
Mr. Scott. A temporary employee.
Senator Lane. Do you furnish him an outfit, grub, and every-
thing? .
Mr. Scott. We furnish him— no; we pay him a certain per diem
01^ monthly salary. He furnishes his own outfit.
Senator Lajte. He does not go along as a guest of the company,
or anything of that kind, does he ?
Mr. Scott. I do not know about that.
Senator Lane. Did you ever inquire to see?
Mr. Scott. He is naturally with the wagon.
Senator Lane. As a mxatter of fact, he is their guest, as far as his
provisions are concerned?
Mr. Scott. I presu.me in actual practice he pays a round-up rent.
Eepresentative Stephens. Is it not a fact that all of these leases
are made, with the exception of the one that is separated by the
railroad track, and there is nothing to prevent the cattle from rang-
ing from one part of the range to the other and the cattle mixing
together ?
Mr. Scott. The railroad track is fenced on both sides.
Eepresentative Stephens. How many of these leases run together
as a common pasture? Are any of them separated except by this
railroad fence?
IMr. Scott. Well, the Bighorn Eiver separates the I. D. range
from ranges 4 and 5. Eanges 4 and 5 are separated by a fence thatj
has been there for many years. ;
Eepresentative Stephens. Then they are all practically separatedj
Mr. S.coTT. Yes, sir; they are practically separated. Eanges 1 and
2 are net separated, except by a fence that was built by the lessees
themselves; and that is another illustration of the value of the fence
(hat we are building. Those people have built at their own co^
and knowing that as soon as their lease expires, as soon as they leavj
the range, they must either take the fence up or leave it there and
be out the cost of it; but they conclude that the fence is worth whalS
it will cost them for such time as they may stay there. It is exactly]
the same proposition that we are putting in now on the ID range. ;
Senator Lane. I want to ask you about these calves that the Sen-i
ator was speaking of. There are very many calves which were, of
course, branded, and you count them in; then you tally them agaift
when they are shipped off?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. And the same with the cattle?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
GROW INDIAN EESERVATION. 1875
Senator Lane. In this way you Imow the number that there is on
the range; that is, the number shipped out and the number branded.
There is a chance in there, is there not, for quite a number of cattle
being on the reservation that are not accounted for ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir; that reservation is a very large one. It em-
braces a great deal of country, some of it very rough ; in fact, there
is a part of that reservation that never has been explored, and an
actual count by our emploj^ees would be a physical impossibility.
Kepresentative Stephens. Is it not a fact that the owners of the
cattle object to their being rounded up i
Mr. Scott. The}' certainh' would.
Representative Stephens. I know I would. I have had some ex-
perience along those lines.
Representative Carter. If you kept track of those calves, by this
Indian with the chuck wagon, would not that give j^ou an accurate
count ?
Mr. Scott. I think so.
Representative Carter. But you do not do that ?
Mr. Scott. We do it; yes.
Representative Carter. You keep track of every calf that is
branded ?
Mr. Scott. Of everything that is branded. Our representative —
we call him a " rep " — makes a return of everything that is branded.
They also make a return of all the Indian cattle that are taken in.
The Indian cattle are gathered, naturally, with the others.
Representative Carter. How many pastures have jou for stock
cattle ?
Mr. Scott. The Heinrich lease is the on\j one that is devoted ex-
clusively to stock raising, as against mere handling of stock.
Representative Carter. The others are more for fattening and
steer cattle raising?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. Do all of the others have stock cattle?
Mr. Scott. They all have more or less; but the Spear brothers,
who are the largest operators in that part of the country, give their
attention principally to merely buying and selling. They do not
depend on the increase of their herds.
Senator Lane. These Indians that go out and represent you on
these round-ups, do they help the other boys and work along with
them?
Mr. Scott. If they are so disposed; yes, sir. They generally do
take a hand in it.
Senator Townsend. LTnder the leasing provision, is not the lessee
obliged, or obligated, rather, to pay for this expense?
Mr. Scott. No, sir ; he is obligated to do the work.
Senator Townsend. If he is obligated to do the work, why does
the Government pay these men for doing the work ?
Mr. Scott. To satisfy us and the Indians that the work is honestly
done — merely a supervision.
Senator Townsend. I would construe the provision in there that
the lessee was to do the work, the work that was necessary for the
Government's benefit, and that that meant that he was obliged to
35601— PT 15—14 5
1876 CROW INDIAN EESEBVATION.
pay for doing the work, and that the Government was selecting the
men to represent it in that matter.
Mr. Scott. We have our own representatives there, Senator, for
our own satisfaction. The lessee does not ask us to put them there.
He will do the work and ask no help from us ; but we put our repre-
sentatives there to see that the work is properly done.
Senator Lane. The fact is, you furnish him a hand ?
Mr. Scott. Sometimes they work and sometimes they do not.
Senator Lane. As a matter of fact, they most all do?
Mr. Scott. They generally do more or less work. They take a
pride in their skill in that work, and would rather do it than not.
They are not hired, however, to help do the work.
Representative Stephens. Is it not a fact that there are some In-
dian cattle with these cattle?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir ; certainly there is.
Senator Lane. The Indians have about 1,500 cattle, altogether?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. There w^ould not be a great many, then?
Mr. Scott. Not a great many.
Representative Carter. Are those Indian cattle branded right along
with the others?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Representative Carter. So that the Indian does his work on the
old plan of the cowman, in addition to watching the interests of the
Government, because, working on the old plan of a cowman and
being a man from another ranch, working with a chuck wagon, to
brand these cattle, he sees that the Indian cattle are branded?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir. The Indians insist that he be given the work.
They want to see it done, and we want them to see it done. We want
them to look after their own interests to that extent. He sees that
the Indian cattle are branded right along with the others.
Represenative Carter. So that he really could not be considered a
hand at a white man's chuck wagon any more than he could in the
employ of the Indians branding their cattle ?
Mr. Scott. Any work that our representative does there is gra-
tuitous.
Representative Carter. I understand that.
Mr. Scott. I want to say to you gentlemen that I have only been
on that reservation three and a half years. Naturally, we learn by
experience. We are each year getting the work better systematized.
We are getting a more thorough organization and are handling the
work much more to our own satisfaction each season.
Senator Lane. Are there two men to each wagon ?
Mr. Scott. Sometimes there are one and sometimes two.
Senator Lane. The average would be about one and a half, would
it ? It must be.
Mr. Scott. It depends, sir, on the locality in which the wagon is
worldng. If it is in a locality where there are a great many cattle,
we have two. If only a few are being gathered, we have one man.
The Chairman. How many Indians are residing within the ID
range?
Mr. Scott. I should say two-thirds of the tribe. That is merely
an estimate.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1877
The Chairman. Do you know of a protest that was sent to the de-
partment under date of February 25, 1913, signed by a large number
?v I'T^T^ ^^^^""^^ *^'^ revocation of the Heinrich lease and asking
that the ID range be reserved for them ?
Mr. Scott. I do not remember such a request; no, sir. And I want
to say, as to petitions and remonstrances and papers of that kind
coming from the Indians, that any Indian can go to another Indian
and get him to sign just about what he pleases.
The Cpiairman. Is that any more true of an Indian than it is of a
white man ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir; it i^. The Crows are, as I have said before,
one great family. They will not refuse a request. It is almost impos-
sible tor one Indian to refuse the request of another. I have had
them hold councils in our office. Some man would make a proposition
to which they would all agree. Then, as soon as it was over, a number
ot them would come into my office and want me to turn it over I
•i u?i?'' why they did not vote against it at the time, and thev
said. Oh, we did not want to do it then."
^ Senator Lane That is true in signing treaties, just as it is in sien-
mg petitions and protests ? ^
Mr. Scott. That is true ; yes, sir.
Senator Lane. It works both ways.
The Chairman. I have a communication here, under date of Feb-
ruary 2o 1913, purporting to be signed by 106 Indians, setting up
that the Heinrich lease covers all of their farming lands as well as
their grazing lands, alleging also that this area Imown as the ID
range had been set aside as grazing land for the Indians, and asking
the Government to purchase a herd of cattle for them and let them
use this range for that herd and for their own benefit. This petition
appears to be signed by 106 Indians.
Mr. Scott. All those names are the names of Indians who live in
one district only— the large grass district.
The Chairman. Is it a fact that their farming lands are leased?
Mr Scott. No, sir; it is not. Their farming lands are fenced,
almost without exception. The department is bound as guardian of
these Indians to make the most out of their property. It would be
foolish for them to set aside that entire ID range for the use of the
Indians when they only need about one-half of it and when they can
lease the remainder for a substantial sum.
Senator Lane. I want to ask you, Mr. Scott, right there, if you
are a judge of the matter— and you must be— if you consider 10
cents an acre or 12i cents an acre, at the outside, as a substantial
return to these Indians for the use of the land. I laiow some that do
not pay that much.
Mr. Scott. It is along the average.
Senator Lane. I think you are very much mistaken about that.
i have a report from the Forestry Department to a different effect
1 did not think to bring it to-night ; but it seems to be a very, very
small sum of money for the use of an acre of land.
Representative Carter. How many acres of this land does it take
to pasture a 4-year-old steer?
Mr. Scott. Thirty acres.
1878 CEOW INDIAN EESEEVATION.
Senator Toavxsend. Is not some of the land included in this pas-
turage irrigated land?
Mr. Scott. No, sir.
Senator Townsexd. None of that?
Mr. Scott. None of it.
Representative Stephens. How do you know that the number of
cattle are not on the range that is claimed here for these different
ranges? Is it not a fact that it would be impossible to count these
cattle b}'^ riding over the range, v\'ithout rounding them up and with-
out having a man stationed and letting the cattle pass and having
him count them? Is not that they way that the cattleman knows
the number of cattle on the range?
Mr. Scott. He gathers these cattle and holds them in a herd, a
close herd, until they are branded and turned out. Then they pass
on. They pass over the country, picking up the cattle as they go
and branding them and leaving them behind. It would be equally
impossible for anyone, without making some count or without having
some record, to say that we have four or five times as many cattle
on that range as are supposed to be there.
Representative Stephens. Could these cattle be rounded up and
counted without you or some of your employees knowing it?
Mr. Scott. They could not.
The Chairman. I want to direct your attention to another matter
that has not been mentioned. There is an apparent discrepancy of
$156.56 in your account and the miller's account as to the flour
ground at the mill. Who is your miller there?
Mr. Scott. The present miller is Mr. Mitchell.
The Chairman. How long has he been there?
Mr. Scott. He has been there about three months.
The Chairman. It appears that he reported to 3^ou, under date of
July 13, 1913 :
Grinding 645.900 iiouuds of flonr for traders, lessees, and otliers, at 30 cents
per liundred, $1,937.90.
It appears from your report to the department that you reported
by quarters an aggregate sum of $1,781.34. Has your attention been
called to that?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How does that arise?
Mr. Scott. That arose from the fact that we grind for the In-
dians and we sell their product for them and turn over the money
to them.
The Chairman. I do not understand that.
Mr. Scott. We grind for the Indians, and the account is kept by
our property clerk, and I took the matter up with him at the time,
and he explained it to ni}^ satisfaction at the time. I have forgotten
just the transaction.
The Chairman. I find this item in the same memorandum; that is,
the propertv clerk's communication to you, under date of Julv 13,
1913:
Grinding 273,129 pounds of wlieat for Indians free, computed at 30 cents per
hundretlweiglit, $819.39.
In the other item, which he makes $1,937.90. it does not appear
that any grinding was done for Indians. It appears that this grind-
ing was done for lessees, traders, and others. Your report shows a
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1879
total of $1,781.34, which is a difference l.etween the amount he
l^'P^'/^f ^? you and the amount you reported to the ck'partment of
$l.)6.o6 I ani trying to find out how that discre|)ancv iK-curred
Mr Scott. I went over that with Mr. Harris, and afterwanls took
It to the property clerk and the cashier who handk'd the matter and
they explained it to my satisfaction. I have forrrottcii the e.xact
details of the transaction.
The Chaik3ian. You do not know now which is correct^
Mr. Scott. The statement as reported to the ottice was contact
The Chairman. To which office?
Mr. Scott. To the Indian Office.
The CiiAiiniAN. The statement you made is correct and the state-
ment that the property clerk made was incorrect?
Mr. Scott. The property clerk in accounting in some way for work
done for the Indians and for flour sold for then— I do not' rememl.er
the details of the transaction. It is a thing that I did not handle
personally, and w-hile I investigated the matter when Mi-. Harris
called my attention to it, I do not remember just how it came about.
The property clerk has been there for many years, and I consi<ler him
entirely competent.
The CiiAiRisrAN. Whose mistake did you find it to be — the property
clerks or the miller's?
Mr. Scott. The property clerk's. It could hardly be called a
mistake.
The Chairman. The two items ought to balance.
]\Ir. Scott. It was a wrong showing between the property clerk
and the cashier.
Senator Lane. Did you make a report balancing it later ^
Mr. Scott. It was correctly balanced at the time.
Senator Lane. But the statements do not balance. You made an
explanation afterwards, so that it would be satisfactory to the
department ?
Mr. Scott. The department never called on us for any explana-
tion at all.
The Chiarman. The department never saw the property clerk's
report to him: they only had his report to them.
In the thrashing season, did yow have a thrasher for the use of the
Indians? Do you own a thrasher or do the Indians own a tlirasher?
^Ir. Scott. We have several thrasher outfits; yes, sir.
The Chairman. To w^hom do they belong?
Mr. Scott. They belong to the Indians, having been purchased by
Indian money.
The Chairman. They are kept at the agency for the use of the
Indians?
Mr. Scott. One is kept at the agency and others at different points
on the reservation.
The Chairman. Do you rent it or hire it out to white men?
Mr. Scott. We thrash for white lessees.
The Chairman. How much of that did you do last year?
Mr. Scott. Not a great deal.
The Chairman. Were you thrashing for them at the time the
Indians needed it and wanted to use the thrasher?
Mr. Scott. No, sir; we were not.
The Chairman. Did they not complain to you about that?
1880 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Mr. Scott. No, sir; I complained to them because I could not get
them to come and do their own thrashing.
The Chairman. Do you have an agency farm there?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. A school farm? .
Mr. Scott. That is, we have ground cultivated by agency em-
ployees ; also what we call a school farm.
The Chairman. How much did you cultivate last year on those
two farms?
Mr. Scott. Well, there is some of it in hay, some of it is in
grain-
The Chairman. How much did you cultivate in all?
Mr. Scott. In the neighborhood of a hundred acres.
The Chairman. Have you not a more definite idea about it than
that? How much hay did you have in?
Mr. Scott. I do not remember the figures.
The Chairman. How much hay did you make?
Senator Lane. How many tons did you cut last year ?
The Chairman. I thought I would find out how much he made
and whether he cut it or not.
Mr. Scott. I cut the hay. Some of it is alfalfa; in fact, ail the
hay that is grown on the farm is alfalfa. We cut that hay whenever
it IS ready to cut. Sometimes we get two cuttings, sometimes three.
We stack it for the use of the school, and the product of the school
farm is stacked and fed out to the school stock. The same way with
the agency.
The Chairman. Do you not keep any count of what you are grow-
ing on that farm, so that Congress may know whether we are wasting
money in keeping you running the farm? Do you not think we
ought to know something about that?
Mr. Scott. I make an annual report.
The Chairman. Now tell me, how much did you grow on the farm
last year?
Mr. Scott. I do not remember.
The Chairman. You have information as to just exactly what
you grew?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir. The exact ilumber of bushels of grain, tons
of hay raised; also the number of bushels of potatoes grown and
dug, and the value.
The CiiAiR]\iAN. Have you not an idea about the acreage that you
had in these respective crops?
Senator Lane. What does alfalfa run. on an average per year,
per cut?
Mr. Scott. Two and a half to three tons.
The Chairman. Do you sell anything off the farm?
Mr. Scott. No, sir; we use it.
The Chairman. Do you keep any account of that, any book ac-
count of that farm proceeding, so that the department niav know
and Congress may know how you are getting along with it, and
whether it is a desirable enterprise?
Mr. Scoi-r. We have a report made by the school farmer, by the
agency farmer, and that report is included in our annual report to
the commissioner. That report consists of some hundred thousand
questions asked by the department. It is a tremendous job to get
it up.
CROW INDIAN REREBVATION. 1881
The Chairman. Do they not ask the question, how much iu hay
how much in corn, how much in potatoes, and so on (
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How far were those crops from your affcncy <*
Mr. Scott. They were in the immediate vicinity. ^
The Chairman. Did you not take enough interest in that enter-
prise, the demonstration of that work to the school there, to know
approximately what was going on on the farm ?
Mr. Scott. I knew all about what Avas going on. I was right
there.
The Chair3ian. You have forgotten it?
Mr. Scott. I have forgotten the number of bushels and tlie num-
ber of tons of hay. I can not say at all, at this time. The fields are
irregular. We have never had occasion to measure them exactly to
know just what was in them.
The Chairman. How many employees did you have working
there? How many did you Avork, if any, on those crops ^
Mr. Scott. AVe have what we call a yard force of three or four
men who are at work around the plant.
The Chairman. I am not talking about the plant at all, but about
the crops. I Avant to find out something about the crops. If I un-
derstand it, you are running in that school, in the neighborhood of
that agency, what is in the nature of a demonstration farm.
Mr. Scott. Yes ; Ave had employees there.
The Chairman. They are for the purpose of teaching these In-
dians, not alone those at the school, but those Avho come in off the
reservation, how to farm. I Avant to knoAv whether your service is
worth anything to the Indians or not, and I Avant you to tell some-
thing about what you are doing there. AVhat is it tiiat you intend
to do ? AVhat are your plans for next year 'i
Mr. Scott. That farm work is done by that agency force. They
will work when they can spare the time, and Avhere the Avork has to
be done, they will go out there and do it.
Eepresentative Carter. If that Avere your OAvn farm, do you not
think that you Avould knoAv approximately hoAv many acres there are
and hoAV many acres had been planted and Avhat it amountetl to,
how much had been raised, and hoAV much each crop had amounted
to? Do you think that if that Avere your farm you Avould know that?
Mr. Scott. Oh, yes.
Representative Carter. Do you not think that the obligation you
took as superintendent of the "agency imposed upon you the super-
vision of that matter the same as if it Avas your OAvn ?
Mr. Scott. I do knoAv that, sir.
Eepresentative Carter. The Senator has asked you to appi^'Xi-
mate.
Mr. Scott. I can approximate it.
Representative Carter. That is the last question he asked you.
The Chairman. Now, tell me about hoAv many acres you had in
corn, peas, hay, and potatoes, and Avhat demonstrations you woul.l
make there to these Indians?
Mr. Scott. We had on the school farm about— probably .'JO to .U
acres in alfalfa. AVe had a garden plat of .5 to 8 acres: probably
half of that was in potatoes, the balance in dill'eront vegetal)les. We
had one field of 15 or 20 acres in oats on the agency farm. U e have
some land there that is used for pasturage.
1882 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
The Chairman. How much?
Mr. Scott. Fifty or sixty acres.
The Chairman. Tell me about what amount of those products you
raised last year.
INIr. Scott. I would say we had in the neighborhood of — we got
perhaps 75 tons of alfalfa. We pastured some of it. We only make
two cuttings this year. We grew potatoes enough to last the school
for one year.
The Chairman. About how many ?
Mr. Scott. Oh, we had six or seven hundred l)ushels.
The Chairman. If you can not approximate the amount, how do
you know you grew enough to last you a year? It has not been a
year since you gathered the crop.
Mr. Scott. We knew that much. We have it in stock, and we
know.
The Chairman. If you have it in stock, you must have first decided
how much it was going to take.
Mr. Scott. We did: but I have forgotten the exast figures — several
hundred bushels.
Senator Lane. How many people have you at the agency school ?
Mr. Scott. Fifty pupils.
Senator Lane. What does the agency do ?
Mr. Scott. They supply their own provisions.
Senator Lane. They buy their own potatoes ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How much oats did you grow?
Mr. Scott. Eight or ten hundred bushels.
The Chairman. How is it that you can not remember, if these are
demonstration farms that are kept for the purpose of showing that
the white man can teach " Lo, the poor Indian " how to farm ; why
is it that you can not remember anything definitely that you did
there on that demonstration farm last year?
Mr. Scott. I never charged my mind with the exact figures.
The Chairman. You did not take enough interest in it to do it.
Senator Lane. How many horses have you ; the horses that you
have to feed oats to, for instance?
Mr. Scott. We keep about 20 horses. Some of them are out on
different parts of the reservation.
The Chairman. We will adjourn now, gentlemen, until 2 o'clock
to-morrow afternoon.
(Whereupon, at 11.20 o'clock p. m., an adjournment was taken
until to-morrow, Tuesday, January 27, 1914, at 2 o'clock p. m.)
JANUARY 27. 1914.
Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. 0.
The commission met in the oflice of the Senate committee on In-
dian Affairs at 2 o'clock p. m.
Present: Senatois Robinson (chairman) and Lane; Representative
Carter.
The Chairman. We will now resume the testimony of Mr. Scott.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1883
TESTIMONY OF W. W. SCOTT-IUsumed.
Senator Lane. I want to ask Mr. Scott some (juestions here in a
general way.
You testified last ni^rht that permits instead of h-ases were U8ed
on account of some chan^^e which was c<)ntemi)hite.l in the future
m some way or other rehitin":, I suppose, to the maiia^^ement ^Ou
gave permits, I understood you to say. for the rea.son that thev wouUl
be more easily revoked. That is right, is it not i
Mv. Scott. My impression of that is that under the i)tMniit foiin—
the provision desired by the office, providing a wav whe'ivby we may
cancel a part or all of the contract could be moreVeadilv in.serted. "
Senator Lane. Why would you Avant to do that ?
Mr. Scott. In view of the proposed purchase of cattle?
Senator Lane. In view of the proposed purchase of cattle?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. But you were already contemplating that (
Mr. Scott. "VVe were not.
Senator Lane. Not at that time ?
Mr. Scott. The fund for building the fence
Senator Lane. That came up afterwards, did it not?
Mr. Scott. It came up later on.
Senator Lane. How long has that fund been in existence for the
building of that fence? How long has it been authorized?
Mr. Scott. The fund has been growing for several years.
Senator Lane. When was it provided for?
Mr. Scott. By the treaty of 1901.
Senator Lane. This is 1914 — pretty nearly 10 years. You said there
was some contemplated change. What did you mean by that — in
connection with issuing the permits instead of taking leases? Was
it only this matter of purchasing cattle?
Mr. Scott. Only providing for a relinquishment by the lessee of a
part of the range at such time as the Indians might want it for their
own use.
Senator Lane. Is there any project that you know of for the dis-
posal of those lands?
Mr. Scott. I know of none.
Senator Lane. About the springs. The land which fenced off
from the Indians, the range, as I understand it. in the winter, where
the wind keeps the snow off, as it does in that country, on the south
hillsides, is pretty good picking — bunch gi-ass and othei- wild gra.^ses
all winter, wherever the cattle can get at the grass it is good feed ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir ; there is god grazing land.
Senator Lane. Excellent.
Mr. Scott. On both sides of the fence.
Senator Lane. That, I say. depends upon circumstances. In a
deep ravine, where the snow covers it up. where the cattle can not
get at it, it is not so: but out on the hillsides they do?
Mr. Scott. Yes. sir.
Senator Lane. But, in the summer, where is the driest and poorest
part of the range ?
Mr. Scott. The poorest part of the range is a small section
Senator Lane. Xo; I mean in a general way. in respect f(. (he hind
on the highland or lowland?
1884 CEOW INDIAN EESERVATION.
Mr. Scott. On the highlands. That is, understand me, the upland
grass is much better than that of the lowlands; the nutritive quali-
ties are much greater, while the grass in the valleys grows ranker, it
has not the value of the finer-blad^d grass of the uplands.
Senator Lane. Is it not a fact that the range up in the mountains
where these springs rise is beter summer range than the lowlands?
Mr. Scott. I think not, sir.
Senator Lane. Is it not a fact that cattle and deer and elk and
all animals do range back up in the mountains in the summer and
down in the valleys in the winter ?
Mr. Scott. They keep to the mountains.
Senator Lane. They naturally take to the mountains, do they not?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Senator Lane. Not because the grass is poorer or less of it, but
because it is better feed; is that right?
Mr. Scott. The mountains afford shelter and protection.
Senator Lane. Shelter from what?
Mr. Scott. For the game. The mountains are not inhabited.
Senator Lane. And for that reason cattle feed there, too?
Mr. Scott. They naturally take the isolated regions. They are
held up there during the summer.
Senator Lane. They are held?
Mr. Scott. Yes; by the lessees.
Senator Lane. Why?
Mr. Scott. To utilize that range that can not be utilized during
the winter.
Senator Lane. In the summer there is good range in the moun-
tains and sufficient to feed the cattle, is there not ?
Mr. Scott. There is good range everywhere in the summer.
Senator Lane. Just as good below in the summer?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir. _
Senator Lane. And in the fall?
Mr. Scott. Oh, yes.
Senator Lane. As it is in the mountains— and in the spring?
Mr. Scott. Just as good.
Senator Lane. It does not differ?
Mr. Scott. I think there is not an appreciable difference. Of
course, there are spots here and there that are good, others that are
not good, but I can not say that one section is better than the other,
as far as that goes.
Senator Lane. You said last night that you rented or leased a
tract— I don't remember the number of it— of some 400,000 acres to
some one. Do you remember whose lease that is?
Mr. Scott. For $40,100.
Senator Lane. Wliich one was that?
Mr. Scott. That was the west end of the reservation— range No. 4.
Senator Lane. That would be how much an acre?
Mr. Scott. Approximately 10 cents.
Senator Lane. Who leases that?
Mr. Scott. Charles McDaniels.
Senator Lane. Is it a permit or a lease?
Mr. Scott. I am unable to say on which form that contract was
drawn.
Senator Lane. When did you let it?
CKOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1885
Mr. Scott. A year ago the 1st of the coming February.
Ibenator Lane. For how long?
Mr. Scott. For three years
Senator Lane What does he carry there, sheep or cattle?
Mr. Scott. Sheep.
Senator Lane. .How many?
Mr. Scott. He has none there at all now.
Senator Lane. I beg your pardon.
Mr. Scott. He has none at all there now.
Senator Lane. He has none?
Mr. Scott. He has shipped out; in fact, it is understood that Mr.
McDaniels has failed.
Senator Lane. What did he have?
Mr. Scott. He had sheep.
Senator Lane. He has paid his rent?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. He has paid his rent up to what time?
Mr. Scott. Up to the 1st of next month.
Senator Lane. Then you expect him to go on ?
Mr. Scott. We have notified him to remit promptly the payment
that will be due the 1st of the coming February.
Senator Lane. He has always remitted promptly in the past ?
Mr. Scott. Always.
Senator Lane. And do you always give them notice?
Mr. Scott. We notify all the lessees some days in advance, ad-
vising them and calling their attention to the fact that their semi-
annual payment wdll be due at a certain time, and asking them to
remit promptly.
Senator Lane. The same as the bank does about giving notice on
a note?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. That is not an unusual thing, then, in giving him
notice to that effect?
Mr. Scott. Not at all ; we give all of them notice.
Senator Lane. But you think he will not have any more cattle on
there ; is that right ?
Mr. ScoTT. I do not know what arrangement he expects to make.
We look, of course, to his bondsmen in case he is unable to meet his
payment.
Senator Lane. The total leased acreage on your reservation is how
much; do you remember, about?
Mr. ScoTT. Something over a million acres, all told.
Senator Lane. How much over a million would you think?
Mr. ScoTT. I would have to consult the leases.
Senator Lane. You would have to what?
Mr. Scott. I would have to consult the leases to get the exact acre-
age of it. I know it approximately.
Senator Lane. Could you give a general estimate?
Mr. Scott. Yes. Approximately the five ranges are considered as
400,000 acres each. One range, No. 6, has 30,000 acres; it is a small
tract.
Senator Lane. I mean in all— about how many acres of leased land
have you on the reserve?
1886 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Mr. Scott. According to our estimate, the six ranges embrace
1,030,000 acres. I do not give that as the exact acreage, but would
have to consult the leases.
Senator Lane. You do not know much about it, then, really. Can
you give us just a general idea — have you been surveying?
Mr. Scott. I would not attempt to say just how. many acres.
Senator Lane. Did you ever hear anybody say?
Mr. Scott. Oh, yes; the leases all specify or estimate the number
of acres contained in the certain tract.
Senator Lane. Did you ever have those added up to see how much
there would be in all?
Mr. Scott. I never have.
Senator Lane. I notice in some statement or report by a man by
the name of Linnen
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Senator Lane. The total acres leased is 1,950,000, or pretty nearly
2,000,000.
Mr. Scott. I think there is some mistake about that.
Senator Lane. You think that is not right?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Senator Lane. This money that you received for the leases, how
much did you get for it?
Mr. Scott. A total of $159,000.
Senator Lane. AVhat did you do with the money; what use did
you make of it?
Mr. Scott. A large part of it is devoted to the building and main-
tenance of irrigation work.
Senator Lane. You do that? Does the law provide for the ex-
penditure of the money that way?
Mr. ScoTT. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Is it an act of Congress?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir ; the treaty made that provision. Then, after
that, we pay the salaries of certain employees from that.
Senator Lane. You pay salaries out of that, too?
Mr. Scott. We pay some salaries out of that.
Senator Lane. That is under what heading — what expenditure
do you put that under, and how does that come in your bookkeep-
ing, and how do you account for that?
Mr. Scott. We pay it from the fund designated by us as " pro-
ceeds, Indian labor at Crow."
Senator Lane. Then what do you charge it to?
Mr. Scott. We charge it to that fund?
Senator Lane. You charge it to the fund?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Senator Lane. ^Vlien you pay it out?
Mr. Scott. Indian moneys, you know, are placed to my credit,
and under the insti-uction of the Indian Office, we pay certain
salaries from that fund: certain other salaries are paid from a
gratuity appropriation provided for under the treaty with the
Indians.
Senator Lane. But I should think that if you took money out of
a fimd that you would give that fund credit.
Mr. Scott. We do.
CROW INDIAN KESERVATION. 1887
Senator Laxe. I understood you to sav vou charged it to it. You
then credit it to one fund and charge it to' another^
Mr. Scott. We charge the fund when we receive the nioiiev on
that. We deposit it to the credit of that fund; naturally, when we
pay out we check against that fiuid.
Senator Lane. And give it credit for it. Now, then, what fund
do you charge this money to that you pay out for sahiries?
Mr. Scott. Some salaries, as I say, are paid from that fund. We
merely check against the amount to our credit.
Senator Lane. You do not keep any particular account against
it; is that rights Is it an expense account, current expense?
Mr. Scott. It is our monthly pay roll.
Senator Lane. Y^ou charge it to the pay roll?
Mr. Scott. Oh, sure.
Senator Lane. Y'ou said last night that you had some allidavits
against Mrs. Grey, didn't you?
Mr. Scott. I do not remember having said so.
Senator Lane. I understood you to say there had been charges
filed against Mrs. Grey.
The Chairman. Y^ou just handed me what purported to be an
affidavit, and since you came in you asked if it might go in the
record.
Mr. Scott. Y"es; I think the matter was not mentioned last night.
Senator Lane. Did j^ou have one to-day?
Mrs. Grey. I think tw'o affidavits were mentioned last night.
Senator Lane. Mrs. Grey says she understood two affidavits were
mentioned last night, but you have some now?
Mr. Scott. I have a paper or two I would like to put into the
record.
(Witness later referred to certain affidavits and copy of telegram
which are attached to this testimony as exhibits.)
Senator Lane. How many emploj^ees have you on the agency
in all?
Mr. Scott. You mean those employed at the school and the
agency in all departments?
Senator Lane. All on your pay roll.
Mr. Scott. Do you want the exact number?
Senator Lane. About; approximately.
Mr. Scott. Our pay roll varies.
Senator Lane. The average.
Mr. Scott. At the present time, I suppose, it carries about 200
names.
Senator Lane. What is the amount of your pay roll, on the
average — what was it last month?
Mr. Scott. I do not remember; I can not remember what it was.
Senator Lane. Do you pay off the pay roll?
Mr. Scott. I do not do the clerical work ; no, sir.
Senator Lane. Is not the pay roll sul)mitted to yon for yoiir O. K.?
Mr. Scott. Certainly; for my signature. We have certain em-
ployees at a stipulated salary. "That salary is jiaid to them every
month at the same rate. Then, in addition to that, we have a
large number of laborers employed in the construction of irrigation
ditches and other public work.' The number employed vanes ^Mth
the season. In the summer, when the work is in full swing, there
1888 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
may be 400 or 500. At one time our pay roll aggregated something
like 600. It may be said that on that roll a great many names ap-
peared several times — that is, Indians who would come on and work
tor a day or two and quit, go off and come back in a day or two
later, go in again, working a few days at a time.
Senator Lane. What did your pay roll amount to for last month?
Mr. Scott. I do not remember.
Senator Laxe. You have to certify to the payroll, do you not,
before it can be paid?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. You have to approve it?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Do you not look it over to see what it amounts to?
Mr. ScoTT. I do that every month.
Senator Lane. Do you not make a comparative estimate in your
mind and weigh it as against the funds you have to draw from,
and note what the average has been for the year, and keep track of
it that way ?
Mr. Scott. We have a cash statement that is made up every
month, and I know from that how the funds are at any specific
time. We have quite a large number of funds from which we draw,
and I can at any time ascertain how much we have to our credit in
any specific fund.
Senator Lake. The reason I asked you was, it was my assump-
tion perhaps you fix the general idea in your own mind as to how
the funds ran, how much you have to go on, how much you have
expended, the amount of the pay roll, etc., and that you had a
general idea of it all.
Mr. Scott. I Ivnow in a general way when we have funds enough
to our credit to meet the coming expenses. For instance, say, the
fence pay roll, the pay roll to meet the cost of this fence that we are
building; I knew that we would need about $1,200 to meet the pay
roll at the end of this month, and I knew that we did not have that
much on hand. Consequently I arranged to have it placed to our
credit. I know the same thing as to the funds for irrigation; I
know that we have enough on hand. In other departments the
funds vary, and I can tell, to my own satisfaction, whether we have
funds enough on hand to meet the coming expenses, but further
than that I do not keep the record in my mind.
Senator Lane. Then, I want to ask you about this matter of leas-
ing again. Is it or is it not a fact that the lessees who pay $2.11 or
$2.25 for cattle sublet at $5 a head to others?
ISIr. Scott. No, sir; it is not a fact.
Senator Lane. That is not true?
Mr. Scott. It is not true.
Senator Lane. You know that positively?
Mr. Scott. I am satisfied it is not true ; I never heard of the asser-
tion of the question before, but I Imow enough about the range and
about those people to know it is not true.
Senator Lane. At any time did Frank Heinrich sublet to Charles
Heinrich ?
Mr. Scott. To who?
Senator Lane. To Charles Heinrich.
CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. Jggg
Mr Scott. Xo; he does not sublet to Charles Heinriph ru. i
Heinrich is interested with Frank Hein rich in n i r^^'"^
Hemrich is a brother of Frank, andV^^.^t ^ethe^.'^" ^'"^-^^
Senator Lane. Which is the lessee?
Mr. Scott. Frank.
his^rrotherV'"'- ^"""^ ^^''^'' ^'^ '^''^' "" '^^'^ ^^ connection with
theri' ^'''''"' ^^ ^""^ ^'' ^'''^^^' ^""^ *^' ^''"^^~^' '•"" ^'^"J« together
Senator Lane. Sort of a partnership, is it?
Mr. Scott I do not know ^hat the arrangement between them-
Ue there. "" ^' ""^ ^^''''^'^' ^^''''''''^' has s^me cat-
Senator Lane. As to the general health of the Indians on the res-
ervation, Mhat percentage did you say of tuberculosis you have there
or did you say? *^ '■"cio,
Mr. Scott. I said that sometime ago we had a physician there-
tuberculosis expert— who estimated that 90 per cent of the Indi-ins of
the reservation were or had been affected by tuberculosis, to a greater
or less extent. ^
Senator Lane. Were or had been?
Mr ScoTT. Were or had been. In manv cases they were what thev
call closed lesions." I am not a physician.
Senator Lane. How many were actually suffering from tuber-
culosis at that time, do you remember, from what he said— with
active tuberculosis?
Mr. ScoTT. I think the estimate was about 30 per cent, but I am
unable to say positively.
Senator Lane. What about trachoma?
Mr. Scott. Trachoma is quite prevalent.
Senator Lane. To what extent?
Mr. Scott. And in the same way, there is a large percentage in
which the disease is active, and others where there is merely in-
cipient.
Senator Lane. Trachoma?
Mr. Scott. Yes,
Senator Lane. What percentage would you think have active
trachoma ?
Mr. Scott. It would be only an estimate, sir.
Senator Lane. You could only guess at it, you mean?
Mr. Scott. That would be all.
Senator Lane. How much would you guess?
Mr. Scott. The active cases?
Senator Lane. Yes; how much in proportion to the population?
Mr. ScoTr. Oh, it would be rather small. I would say that — to
take those cases that would be noticeable, those whore you would
notice in casually meeting one, that eye trouble existed.
Senator Lane. Do you not do more than take, just as you say,
casual notice whether they have trachoma or not? Do vou ever go
out and investigate for yourself what the conditions are?
Mr. Scott. I am with them a great deal, and what I speak of is
that anyone meeting them casually would notice — cases that it would
be noticed by anyone meeting another casually, not having their
mind on it at all.
1890 CBOW INDIAN EESERVATION.
Senator Lane. Do j^ou not have it in mind?
Mr. Scott. I have a great many things in nw mind, sir.
Senator Lane. Too many to attend to that?
Mr. Scott. I will say this, that whenever T find an Indian suffer-
ing from trachoma, I always urge him to go to the doctor, and very
frequently I take him personally to the doctor.
Senator Lane. Do you have a hospital there?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Of how many beds?
Mr. Scott. We have three wards.
Senator Lane, How many in each?
Mr. Scott. And there are usually two beds in each ward.
Senator Lane. Three wards — that would be six beds.
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Senator Lane. Is it full most of the time?
Mr. Scott. No ; I think it would not — the average would probably
be three or four, not more than three, perhaps.
Senator Lane. lAHiat type of medical men do you get there, high-
class, good men?
Mr. Scott. We have good average physicians.
Senator Lane. What do vou pay them?
Mr. Scott. One is paid $1,200 and the other is paid $1,400.
Senator Lane. You have two physicians?
Mr. Scott. We have three. Another is paid $1,500, but has in
addition to his work as physician the position of agency or of district
farmer.
Senator Lane. District farmer and physician?
Mr. Scott. And physician ; yes, sir.
Senator Lane. How does he combine those two offices?
Mr. Scott. They combine very readily, as he has occasion to be
traveling over his district in the capacity of both physician and
farmer.
Senator Lane. And does he receive separate pay for each ?
Mr. Scott. No, sir ; he has just a salary. He is carried as physician
and farmer, at a salary of $1,500.
Senator Lane. There was handed to me a photograph of a child
whose leg was broken and was treated there sometime past, I do not
know by whom or how long ago, and that was the result of the union
of the bones [exhibiting photograph to the witness and to the joint
commission].
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Senator Lane. Do you remember that case?
Mr. Scott. I do; I know all about it.
Senator Lane. Did you see this, Mr. Carter? There is a broken
leg treated there, and that is why I am asking about the character
of the physicians. There is a photograph showing how the leg
united.
Representative Cahter. Did the agency physician treat this?
Senator Lane. That is what I am told. Is that right?
Mr. Scott. The first I knew of that was a call to Dr. Lorenz, the
agency physician, to go to see that case.
Senator Lane. Is he the one who is physician and farmer — Dr.
Lorenz ?
CROW INDIAN KESERVATION. Iggi
Mr Scott. No sir; he is the one at the agencv. He was c-illo.l in
go and see that child It was a distance of'sonie 40 miles T le all
came just about night He started innnediatelv, an<l, as he af er-
.vards told me got out there sometime between midnight and m rn-
mg He went m and set the leg, fixed the child up in proper ape,
with the necessary appliances, and returned the next div. Vs I iet
the story, these people called in an Indian doctc.r-what we" c-dT i
medicine man He took off the bamlages. displaced the wei-hts
and went over the business himself, with the result as vou see tliere
[exhibiting photograph]. AVhen, finallv-iust at th'at time the
physician located on the Big Horn, Dr. -Keily. had been app.nnted.
but had not yet arrived; he was expected, and came a dav or two
later. He went out there and found this medicine man tii'ere and.
as I understand, declined to have anvthing to do with the case un-
less they would agree to keep the Indian doctor awav from him.
Ihe child was later on taken to the hospital at Billings' and another
operation was performed. Unquestionablv the appearance of the
Indian medicine man was responsible for "that. Dr. Lorenz would
never set a leg or bone in that shape.
Senator Lane. The Indians make the complaint, and I give it to
you for what it is worth, that when the parents of the child mformed
you that the bone had not been properly set that vou net only re-
fused to aid them, but threatened them and told them that voii did
not want any trouble.
Mr. Scott! May I ask where that comes from ?
Senator Lane. It came from the reservation in a letter. I think.
Mr. Scott. The only trouble with the statement is that it is abso-
lutely and wholly false.
Senator Lane. It may be. I am not saying it is true. I just
wanted to let you know, and so, naturally, you see why I brought
the matter up.
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. How much was your appropriation last year for
support and civilization; do you remember?
Mr. Scott. We get no gratuity money except as provided under the
treaties — a few salaries that are" provided for by treaty.
Senator Lane. How much was set aside by Congress? Tiiat must
have been appropriated for that purpose.
Mr. Scott. The amount set aside hy Congress is for the entire
service. It is apportioned to several Indian reservations by the In-
dian Office.
Senator Lane. I do not think so. I think there was a general
fund. Is there not a fund for the support and civilization of Indians
on your reservation?
Mr. Scott. No, sir.
Senator Lane. There is not?
Mrs. Grey. There is a fund of $6,000.
Mr. Scott. Oh. that is for the fulfillment of treaties. It applies
to these salaries that you speak of.
Senator Lane. Do ,vou understand that that is provided for by
treaties; and if it were provided for by treaties
Mr. Scott. The appropriation is made in pursuance to treaty
stipulation.
.35601— PT :irt—i4 6
1892 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Senator Lane. How much do you expend, upon the Indians, per
capita, for support and civilization per year; do you remember,
Mr. Scott?
Mr. Scott. I hardly know how to get at that, because we do not
expend it in that way. We pay the physician, we pay the miller and
the blacksmith from that fund, as agreed by the treaty.
Senator Lane. You keep no book account of a fund called *' For
the support and civilization of the Indians"; is that what I under-
stand 3^ou to say?
Mr.ScoTT. We have money from that appropriation phiced to our
credit for the purpose of paying these salaries.
Senator Lane. Xot under the head, as I understand you, for sup-
port and civilization?
Mr. Scott. Yes; we check on it under that head; but you under-
stand that the appropriation is made for the purpose of paying these
salaries. Then we call on the Indian Office to have put to our credit
under that fund money enough to meet these monthly payments.
Senator Lane. That is what I wanted to find out — how you car-
ried on that account. It appears in the bill as so much for " support
and civilization," and I desired to find out whether it is expended for
that purpose.
Mr. S(()TT. It is expended in that way.
Senator Lane. Do you spend am' of it for the support of the
Indians?
Mr. ScoTT. Xo, sir.
Senator Lane. Xone?
Mr. ScoTT. That is merely a title for the
Senator Lane. Do you spend much on their civilization \
Mr. ScoTT. If the maintenance of schools might be called-
Senator Lane. No: there is a special appropriation, I think, for
schools. Mr. Scott, independent of that, if I remember. There is for
most of them ; I don't know whether it applies in your case or not.
Mr. Scott. The entire business is for the civilization of the In-
dians.
Senator Lane. Yes; but they are under different appropriations.
You do not know whether that is divided from the school fund or
not; is that what I understand?
Mr. Scott. That is separate.
Senator Lane. It is kept separate?
Mr. Scott. It is separate; j^es.
Senator Lane. You keep it separate?
Mr. Scott. We draw on a separate fund, a certain fund. As I say,
we pay all expenses from different funds. Whenever we draw a
check, we draw it on a certain fund; whenever we ask to have funds
placed to our credit, we ask that it be placed from a certain appro-
priation that is applicable.
Senator Lane. How many reallotments were made this last year,
if any, on your reserve?
Mr. Scott. There were no reallotments.
Senator Lane. No reallotments?
Mr. Scott. No, sir. _ '
Senator Lane. You issue rations to the Indians?
INIr. Scott. No, sir.
Senator Lane. None at all %
CROW IXDIAX RESERVATION. I893
Mr. Scott. Xo. sir.
Senator Laxe. Under no circumstances ''
Mr. Scott. Only in cases of destitution, where perliaijs an „ld
person ' * '
Senator Laxe. That is what I mean
Mr. Scot;!-. Is destitute. In that case we pay for supplies: we find
their supphes tor them; we do not issue rations.
Senator Laxe. And then vou charge that to what ^
Mr. Scott. We get authority from the Indian Ottice to expend that
necessary amount of m(»ney from the fund.
Senator I-^^-E. I think you are right about that. This .seems to
differ from the others. I do not see anything in tliere for support
and civilization.
Then, do you have a system of issuing what is called "rations"
to those who are in distress? Or do vou buy them just what vou
think they need ?
Mr. Scott. We procure fr(mi the Indian Office authority to e.xpeiul
that necessary amount of money. When that authority 'is received,
and sometimes before, if the emergency demands, we go'to our trader
and arrange to have him supply the needy person with necessaries.
Senator Laxe. Do you Imow Inspector Xorris?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Laxe. When was he out there ?
Mr. Scott. A year and a half ago.
Senator Laxe. Did you see the report he made in regard to viola-
tion of contract?
Mr. Scott. Did he make such a report?
Senator Laxe. I think so.
Mr. Scott. I do not know^
Senator Laxe. Did you say you Imow of no subleases on the
reserve?
Mr. Scott. No what ?
Senator Lane. You know of no subleases or do you Iviiow of any
subleases ?
Mr. Scott. I do not.
Senator Laxe. You said last night cars contained 16 to 20 head of
cattle, depending on the size of the cars, and you counted the cattle
out in that way?
Mr. Scott. Yes: and in addition to that the shii)pers always know.
They tally their cattle, and laiow how many they are getting in
and out.
Senator Laxe. You count the cars and then vou estimate them as
16or 20, which?
Mr. Scott. That is the usual size, depending somewhat on the car.
Our stockmen are practical and experienced men in the business.
They can tell what a car will hold very closely.
Senator Laxe. Do they count the cattle or count the cars^ Vou
said they counted the cars.
Mr. Scott. I think the usual j^ractice is to count the cai-s.
Senator Laxe. Did you ever go out and check that up youi'seif '
Mr. Scott. Frequently.
Senator Laxe. You fieciuently do? So you know something alnnit
that — that that is done carefully and well: is that right?
Mr. Scott. That is right.
1894 CROW INDIAN EESEEVATION.
Senator Lane. Why do the Indians, you think, refuse to work on
this proposed fence? Is it prejudice merely or because they think it
is contrarj' to treaty, or what are your views in regard to that?
Mr. Scott. They do not give any reason ; they simply say they will
not work.
Senator Lane. Do you want to let Mrs. Grey ask any questions
or not?
The Chairman. I have no objections to hearing Mrs. Grey.
Senator Lane. Have you anything you want to get in here?
Mrs. Grey. May I ask some questions?
The Chairman. Do you want to ask the witness some questions?
Mrs. Grey. I would be very glad to.
The Chairman. I first desire to ask the witness a few questions.
How many cattle did the Indians own when you went onto the
reservation, approximately? Do you know?
Mr. Scott. No ; I do not.
The Chairman. Do you know how many they own now?
Mr. Scott. Between 1,400 and 1,500.
The Chairman, Do they own more now than they did then?
Mr. Scott. The number has not varied greatly in that time.
The Chairman. About the same that they owned then?
Mr. Scott. Possibly; they are buying and selling all the time.
The Chairman. Did Heinrich ship cattle in September during the
fair at Hardin?
Mr. Scott. I do not remember whether he did or not.
Mrs. Grey. That was Spear Bros.
The Chairman. That is not the information I have. Do you
know Spear Bros, shipped cattle in September, during the fair at
Hardin ?
Mr. Scott. I do not.
The Chairman. Do you know whether Heinrich or Spear were
shipping cattle in September, while the Indian stock inspector, whose
business it was to check them up, was at a fair at Hardin? Do you
know anything about that?
Mr. Scott. I do not remember the occasion ; no.
The Chairman. You have no personal knowledge as to whether
they were shipping cattle at that time, and their statement as to what
they were shiping was taken instead of the statement of the stock
inspector?
Mr. Scott. We do not take their statements for what they ship.
The Chairman. How do you know you do not ?
Mr. Scott. Because we have a man there to look after it.
The Chairman. Yes; but suppose a man goes to a fair and stays
there while the cattle are being shipped and he takes the statement
of Heinrich or the Spears and returns it ; would you have any way of
checking him and knowing whether he was doing his duty or neglect-
ing it?
Mr. Scott. That man has been on the reservation in his present
position for a great many years — 15 or 20 years — I do not know how
long. I have worked with him all the time since I have been there,
nearly four years, and I have entire confidence in him. I do not
believe
The CiTATRiNrAN. So you would rely upon any statement he wovdd
make. You do not check him up to see whether he is doing his duty,
then? That is Avhat I wanted to know.
CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1895
Mr. Scott. I have never heard liini (luestioned. never heard
him
The Chairman. I will state to you that the commission has some
inlormation that that occurred. I am trving to find out whether it
IS withm your knowledfje or without vour' knowledge.
Mr. Scott. I have no knowledge of "anything of the kind occurring.
Ihe CiiAiRMAX. lou believe that he is verv diligent in the dis-
charge of his duty because he has been there a long time (
Mr. Scott. No, sir; because I have known of his work.
The Chairman. What is his name ?
Mr. Scott. A. A. Campl)ell.
The Chairman. Have his reports to you ever di tiered from the
reports of the stockmen themselves as to the amount of cattle received
or shipped ?
Mr. Scott. The stockmen do not make a report of their specific
shipments.
The Chairman, They do not?
Mr. Scott. No.
The Chairman. All the information your office gets is through
him ?
Mr. Scott. Through our representatives who are there.
The Chairman. You do not require them to file an affidavit oi
statement as to the amount of stock shipped or received ?
Mr. Scott. No.
Senator Lane. I understood you to say last night that you did.
The Chairman. That is exactly what I understood him to say, and
that is the reason I am asking him now\
Mr. Scott. We require them to submit an affidavit of tlie numl)er
run on the reservation.
The Chairman. You do not require any affidavit as to the mnul)er
brought in or taken off the reservation ?
Mr. Scott. No.
The Chairman. How often are those affidavits as to the numl)er
run required to be taken ?
Mr. Scott. At the semiannual payments.
The Chairman. Wliat is the form of that affidavit? Does it show
the number run at a definite time or just the average number?
Mr. Scott. It shows the average. I have forgotten the form of
the affidavit. It is in such form as we can get the number run.
They have run — they state under oath that they have run on the
range during the past six months so many cattle.
The Chairman. Just a general statement as to the number run?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, the number varies greatly
during that six months, does it not?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And how is that number arrived at, if you know?
How do they reach a conclusion as to the number run if it varies
greatly during that time? Do you know whether or not they keep
a record of the cattle brought in and the cattle removed, and try to
reach an average, or hoAv is it done?
Mr. Scott. They keep their records. They know how many cattle
they have brought in and how many
i
1896 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
The Chairman. Have you any means of ascertaining whether their
statement is true or untrue, correct or incori-ect?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What is your means?
Mr. ScoiT. Why, taking the cattle as they are received and
shipped.
The Chairman. Suppose your inspector is not there and does not
in fact check them, has no knowledge that a shipment has come in,
you would not be able to do it then?
Mr. Scott. In that case we would have to take the statement of the
shipper ?
The Chairman. Do you know the condition of that range last
March ?
Mr. Scott. I Imew it at the time; I do not know whether I can
say now.
The Chairman. Do you remember whether or not an inspector
was there and investigated the condition and reported that it was
barren and that that barren condition was due to the grasshoppers?
Mr. Scott. I do not loiow that such a report was made.
The Chairman. Did you have any trouble with grasshoppers at
that time ?
Mr. Scott. I do know that a small portion of the country where
the range was was damaged with grasshoppers; it was not universal,
however, by any means.
The Chairman. Would that affect the condition of the range ma-
terially in March?
Mr. Scott. I think not; I think the damage was not sufficiently
extensive to be noticed at all.
The Chairman. So that if the range was barren it would not be
due to grasshoppers, would it, especially in March?
Mr. Scott. Oh, no, no.
The Chairman. What season of the year are the grasshoppers
especially damaging to the range?
Mr. Scott. I have never before known of grasshoppers to damage
that range at all.
The Chairman. If grasshoppers damaged the range, it is not
within your knowledge?
Mr. Scott. No.
Representative Carter. You said you had no way in the world of
knowing whether these affidavits were correct or not if your men
did not check them in and out. That was your answer to the Sen-
ator's statement. Did you not state last night that you also got
reports from the railroad company as to the number?
Mr. Scott. We get notice from the railroad company when ship-
ments are to be made; that is what- 1 said last night.
The Chairman. Do they drive cattle in that country on and off
the range?
Mr. Scott. Oh, no.
Questions by Mrs. Helen Pierce Grey:
Mrs. Grey. When Heinrich was shipping he was shipping at
Lodge Grass; and, Mr. Scott, were you not at Hardin with Camp-
bell during that fair time, and were they not shipping the cattle
from Lodffe Grass?
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1897
Mr. Scott. I was with Mr. Campbell at the fair.
Mrs. Grey. Were you not in a saloon there at Hardin ?
Mr. Scott. At Hardin— I was there about two hours one dav.
Mrs. Grey. You were there in the evening ?
The Chairman. The material point about it is, do you know
whether or not the lessees were shipping cattle at that time, and did
you have any information about it?
Mr. Scott. I do not. I do know very distinctly that Campbell
would not go off to a fair and neglect a shipment.
The Chairman. That is an opinion. You can not know what
another man would do. You do well enough to know what vou do
yourself.
Senator Lake. Is he a drinking man ?
Mr. Scott. Campbell ?
Mrs. Grey. Yes, sir.
Mr. Scott. He takes a drink of beer occasionally. I have never
known him to be intoxicated or to drink to excess at all.
The Chairman. Is there anything else?
Mrs. Grey. Mr. Scott, do you remember the hearing that was held
in your office on October 11, when I was there?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Mrs. Grey. Do you remember Mr. Campbell was asked what
records he had as to the number of stock that were on the reserva-
tion, and do you remember that he replied that he had none; and
when I asked him if he kept records on shee]:), he said, " No ; sheep
were not stock." and that he did not count them?
Mr. Scott. I Vemember that hearing and remember that Campbell
was on the stand, but I do not remember his testimony.
Mrs. Grey. The record is here, and that is the statement.
Do you remember that Mr. Norris went out there, and did you
see the report that Mr. Norris made on that matter?
Mr. Scott. I did not.
Mrs. Grey. Mr. Norris's report will show that he found that Mr.
Campbell was guilty of dealing in horses, drank, and that his in-
spection was no inspection.
The Chairman. Perhaps it would be best to produce the report of
the inspector.
(The report referred to is as follows:)
ExHir.iT 1.
As to section 13, wherein it is cbarsed that the Indian herds are not properly
cared for, and that there is no sufficient supervision over the branding:, .sather-
ing, and shipping of cattle, and that there is no proper inspection or report on
the number of cattle and sheep grazed on the range and no proper inspection
of general conditions on the rauge. I find, after careful consideration, that said
complaints are true.
*******
As to section 17, wherein charges and complaints against Superintendent of
Live Stock Campbell and Additional Farmer Schrooder are considered. I find—
1. That said Campbell is guilty of dealing in horses with Indians.
2. That said Campbell is guilty of using intoxicating liquor on the reservation,
and that said use has to some extent destroyed the confidence of the people
with whom he has business, and inii)aired his efficiency and usefuln(>ss.
3. That in view of all the surrounding circumstances, I recommend such
clemency as may be consistent with good service.
4. That Additional Farmer Schrooder be severely reprimanded for his con-
duct in drinking liquor in the presence of or with Indians mi the n^servation
or at times when, by so doing, it may become known (o the Tndi.Miis.
1898 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Mrs. Gkey. He has been trading with horses since 1884.
The Chairman. Was Campbell dealing in stock on the reservation?
Do .you know ?
Mr. Scott. No ; I do not.
Senator Lane. You do not know, you say?
Mr. Scott. He never did, to my knowledge.
Senator Lane. Would you know whether he was or not?
Mr. Scott. I think I would.
Mrs. Grey. He found back in 188-1 a statement, when Senator
Lamar w'as Secretary of the Interior, where he was dealing in stock,
and permitted to do so by the agent, and he has been dealing in stock
ever since.
The Chairman. Mr. Scott, did you have some affidavits that you
wanted to go into the record?
Mr. Scott. I want to make a statement, with your i^ermission.
The Chairman. All right. That is what you are here for.
Mr. Scott. I am very loath indeed to say anything that might re-
flect on the conduct of Mrs. Crey. It is extremely distasteful to me.
The Chairman. Mr. Scott, the commission is not asking any state-
ment of that sort. If you want to make the statement, go ahead and
make it. If you do not, we are not requiring you to do it. We want
all the information that is available and is of value.
Mr, Scott. I feel that my duty to the Indians compels me to say —
to give you something of the history of Mrs. Grey's connection with
the Crow Indians. She came there seven or eight years ago.
The Chairman. Wait a minute. Were you there?
Mr. Scott. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know that of your own knowledge?
Mr. Scott. I did not see her there.
The Chairman. Very well, you need not go into such historical
statements as are not within your own knowledge.
Mrs. Grey. Senator Robinson, will you not let the statement go
into the record, and give me an opportunity of answering? These
things are being contiually referred to, and I feel it is right to me
that I should have an opportunity to answer them. They are false.
The Chairman. Very well, if it is not objectionable to the other
members, we will hear any statement you want to make.
Senator Lane. Mrs. Grey, you must remember that Mr. Scott can
jiot say what happened when he was not there.
Mrs. Grey. He has something which has l^een fixed up. I would
like to have him put it in the record. I can tell him where it was
fixed up.
Mr. Scott. I have the history of Mrs. Grey when she was there
seven years ago.
Mrs. Grey. Eight years ago.
Mr. Scott. I know at that time the Indians were demoralized
almost beyond repair.
The Chairman. All right. How do you know that?
Mi-. Scott. By the testimony of people who were there during the
entire time.
The Chahjman. AVhat do you mean by ''testimony"? Do you
mean statements?
Mr. Scott. Statements : ves, sir.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1899
The Chairman. I can not take hearsay statements. I will state
this: This commission is not primarily concerned with the contro-
versy between you and Mrs. Gre3^
Mrs. Grey. I have no controversy \vith him.
Mr. Scott. I have no controversy with Mrs. (irey.
The Chairman. I am not entirely satisfied that either of those
statements are correct.
Mrs. Grey. I have not, in the least, Senator Robinson.
The Chairman. I am not willing to allow an investigation that is
designed for the improvement of the service to descend to inquire
into transactions that are entirely irrelevant to the investigation.
I have no objection, Mr. Scott, to your proceeding with your state-
ment, if you will make it brief.
Mr. Scott. Then, to come down to the last visit of Mrs. Grey.
I was notified by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs that Mrs. Grey
would come and was requested
The Chairman, Is that in writing?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Just submit that and we will put it in the record,
?nd you need not state what is in it ; it will show for itself.
(Witness did not submit letter referred to.)
Senator Lane. Who was commissioner at that time. Mi-. Scott ^
Mr. Scott. Mr. Sells. I believe I have not that letter. I have a
letter from Mr. Sells advising me that he is inclosing a copy. ])ut I do
not find the copy. May I state from memorandum what that letter
contained '(
The Chairman. No: you will produce the letter itself.
Mr. Scott. Later on Mrs. (xrey arrived, and showed a letter ad-
dressed to me by the chairman of this committee, asking me. as I
remember it, to afford her opportunities for investigation. Mrs.
Grey showed me the letter, but declined to leave it with me, saying
she wanted to use it on the reservation. She was coming in in the
evening. The next day she came to the office, and again showed me
the letter, making the same statement that she wanted to use it on
the reservation. I told her that unless she filed the letter 1 could not
recognize her, but I did allow her free run of the reservation. Mr.
Harry Harris was there and filed his credentials, and was allowed to
take anything that he wanted. A man was directed to Avait on him and
give him and Mrs. Grey, who was working with him, anything that
Mr. Harris asked for. They were there a few days and went around
over the reservation, and it Avas immediately apparent that a change
had taken place among the Indians. Tliey began holding conncils,
and stopped their work.
Eepresentative Carter. Their work? What were they doinir^
Mr. Scott. The usual work around the reservation.
The Chairman. What, though?
Mr. Scott. Just at that time— that was during the fair: tlicy wore
doing nothing at that time.
The Chairman. Then thev did not stop doing anything^
Mr. Scott. We were not then able to get them to go to woi'k again.
Mrs. Grey. Where were they holding the councils?
Mr. Scott. There were councils held in the Uig Horn.
Mrs. Grey. Where?
1900 CROW INDIAX EESERVATION.
Mr. Scott. That is 1'2 miles, at the home, I understand, of Ties His
Knees.
Mrs. Grey. There was no council there.
Mr. Scott. And the usual result followed. We were unable to get
the Indians to do any work durins; the fall ; they absolutely refused
to plow, the tirst time in my administration there that such a thing
has happened. They refused absolutely to work for wages, and, as
a consequence, they have gone into the winter with little or no funds
except such as comes to them from the inheritance and from private
leases.
Senator Lane. I beg your pardon right there, Mr. Scott. Would
they accumulate funds by plowing?
Mr. Scott. No, sir: but they would prepare for the next year's
crops.
Senator Laxe. But you said if they did not plow and quit plowing,
which they had always been accustomed to do, that they Avould go
into the winter with little or no funds, as though they would make
their money by plowing.
Mr. Scott. They went into the winter with little or no money, for
the reason that they would not work on the ranges.
Senator Lane. Not from lack of plowing?
Mr. Scott. Not plowing.
Senator Lane. That will come next 3^ear?
Mr. Scott. They will suffer from that next year.
Under the ruling of the chairman, there are some things I had
intended to submit
The Chairman. Let us see what they are. You have not offered
anything.
Mr. Scott. There [indicating paper] is a copy of the affidavit that
I have.
The Chairman. HaA'e you the original affidavit ?
Mr. Scott. The original. I believe, is on file in the Indian Office.
I will not offer that.
The Chairman. Wait a minute. That does purport to be signed,
or is it written ?
Mr. Scott. It was signed and sworn to in my presence. That is a
copy.
The Chairman. The document that you have in your had does
not appear to be signed by anybody.
Mr. Scott. This is merely the carbon copy.
The Chairman. Answer my question. Does the document which
you have in your hand appear to be signed by anybody ?
Mr. Scott. No, sir.
The Chairman. Of course, that will not be admitted.
Mrs. Grey. There is one in the Indian Office, Senator Kobinson.
The Chairman. Wliat?
Mrs. Grey. There is an affidavit on file in the Indian Office. If
you have seen the files there, going through them, as I have, there is
not any place on earth from which they could get an affidavit that is
not obtained and put on file against me. They are just as false on
their face as they can be, and they laiow they are false.
The Chairman. If you want it to go in, I will let it go in.
Mr. Scott. There is an affidavit of Charles Clawson, touching the
matter about which I spoke last night.
CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1901
mt^offl^f '>''• i^^lrS^' t^^'^'^^ ^^ submitted in evidence.
(Ihe caflidavit submitted by Mr. Scott is as follows:)
State of Montana, Big Horn County, ss:
hJ' ^«''"'^;^ Clawson. of lawful age, resident of above-named county and State
being first duly sworu. on my oath depose and say l"i"uj auu biate,
That during the early part of the month of October, or possibly the last of
September I was employed as a foreman in the construction of a line of fen?e
being built across the Crow Indian Reservation by the Oovernnen under the
general supervision of Mr. .1. E. .Jenkins; that at that time one HeleuP
Grey came to a point where I was at work with my gang, being brought out
by Georg-e Pease m an automobile from Lodge Grass. Mrs. Grey inqui?^
whether his was a ditch camp. I told her no. She then said. -This ?en!e
building has got to stop"; that she was going to have it canceled. She told
mejhat 1, being a Crow, should stick to the tribe; that I ought not to build the
Mrs. Grey circulated among the Indians spreading the impression that the
work was to be stopped; that the boys who were doing the work would not
be paid; that she would have the work stopped. In consequence of her talk
some of my force stopped work, and many others who otherwise would have
worked refused to do so. rendering it extremely difficult for us to procure suffi-
cient help and very seriously delaying the work.
I am a Crow Indian and have lived on the Crow Reservation all my life.
I have been familiar with Mrs. Grey's connection with the tribe from the
first, and it has been my observation that every time Mrs. Grev comes to the
reservation the same thing happens, namely, the Crows stop' work, neglect
their farms, failing, as a consequence, to raise anything. Mrs. Grey's influence
with the Crows has always been for the bad, and she has set the tribe back
many years.
Charles Claw son.
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 1st day of January, 1914.
W. P. Squires,
Notary Puilic for the State of Montana,
Residing at Crow Agency, Mont.
(My commission expires January 25, 1916.)
Mrs. Grey. I have never spoken to him and do not know him.
The Chairman. Do not interpolate remarks into the statement
of the witness. We must proceed with due order.
Mr. Scott. I made the statement last night that ]Mrs. Grey's
presence on the reservation interfered with the work. I submit
that affidavit in support of it.
I take the ground that Mrs. Grey habitually will bring charges
against anyone, denounce anyone who does not happen to fall in
with her ideas, and in support of that I will offer an affidavit by
Joe Cooper, of Lodge Grass.
The Chairman. All right, let it go in.
(The affidavit here submitted by Mr, Scott is as follows:)
Department of the Interior,
United States Indian Service.
Soap Creek, Crow Reskrvation,
January 1.), tOl'i.
J. W. Cooper, being first duly sworn, on his oath deposes and says that he
is a member of the Crow TTibe of Indians and has resided on the Crow Reser-
vation for 30 years last past; that he is familiar with Crow Indian aff.-iirs and
has kept posted on the Indians and their progress: that he knows IIoUmi Tierce
Grey and has talked with her frequently during her last (recent) visit to the
reserv.ition ; that while the said Helen Pierce Grey was here recently alliant
heard her say on two or three different occasions, in the presonc(^ of other
members of the tribe, that Mr. Harris, secretary for the Congressinii:il Iiidian
investigation committee, was "crooked"; that he was no man at all: that he
"stood in" with Agent Scott and the "clique" and was only Ihf political
1902 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
manager for Senator Robinson. Affiant further states that he worked with the
said Mrs. Grey in previous years and found her to be irresponsible, and be-
lieves she was not worliing for the Indians' interests, but for her own private
gain; also in the interest of grafters. Affiant further states that the said Mrs.
Grey has drank whisky in his presence.
J. W. Cooper.
Witness :
E. M. Haynie.
Subscribed and sworn to before me and witnesse<l this 14th day of January,
1914.
James E. Jenkins.
United States Stock Inspector.
Mr. Scott. As an indication of the experience of our office with
Mrs. Grey
Senator Lane. What do you mean by " our office " ?
Mr. Scott. The Crow Indian Agency office. I w^ill state that in
the year 1907 Mrs. Grey was put off of the Crow Reservation by or-
der of the Secretary of the Interior. Later on she was prosecuted
for returning. I have here
Senator Lane. For what?
Mr. Scott, For returning.
The Chairman. Is that within your knowledge, or are you testi-
fying to things you heard?
Mr. Scott. I have here the original telegram.
The Chairman. How do you know it is original ?
Mrs. Grey. He gets that from Dalby, the attorney for Heinrich.
The Chairman. Mrs. Grey, you keep still.
Mr. Scott, I got that from our files.
The Chairman, You have no means of verifying and knowing
whether it is correct or not?
When did you first go to the Crow Agency ?
Mr, Scott. I arrived there June 27, 1910.
The Chairman. What is the date of that telegram?
Mr. Scott, The date of that telegram is June 3, 1907.
The Chairman, ^VTiere were you when that telegram was sent?
Mr, Scott, I was in Colorado,
The Chairman, Are you willing to swear — and you understand
you are swearing now — that telegram was sent and that you know
it to be a correct copy of the original telegram that was sent?
Mr. Scott, I can not do that; I can merely testify that I found
this telegram in our official files.
The Chairman, Oh, very well. You are to understand that that
is not competent testimony anywhere in the world. Let it go in,
however,
(The telegram here submitted by Mr, Scott is as follows:)
[Received at 5.15 p. m., 6/3, 1907.]
Washington. D. C, June 3, W07.
Reynolds. Agent Crow Agency:
It being jiKlgment [probably evident] that the continued presence Helen
Pierce Grey in the Indian country on the Crow Reservation is detrimont.-il to
the peace and welfare of the Indians. I hereby direct, with the approval of
Sec'y of llif Interior that yon remove said party from the Crow Indian Reser-
vation inidor and in accordance with the in-ovisions of section twenty-one hun-
dre<l and forty-nine of the Revised Statutes of the United States.
Laribee, Actg. Commr.
Approved :
Garfield, Secy.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. I9Q3
to be put in the way of swearing that',^^,.t?t>4T,.:':orcrdo'
Mr. Scott. All right, sir; no.
My object in introdiicing these things i^ tn hi-inrr +1,^ ** ^•
the commission-to call tlfeir atLS to the f Jl^ ! u 'V'" ^^
J..t to the Crow Eeservation has worked, ^^^ l^H^^ l^!;-'^. ^I^ .^^^^
Senator Lane. In what Avay «
i.fli f'^'"''; ^^'" ''^ ^^^^"^ b'-^^k; they have stopped work- thov h-ive
tailed to make any progress. - ^
Senator Lane I want to ask you right there: Up until that time
had their condition been improvinc^«
Mr Scott. Up until the time oOIrs. Grey's arrival last Septem-
ber, they had steadily improved from the time that I went t e -i
They were ge tmg along very amicably; there were no far ions
aniong them; they were working each year a little more
Aow, It will be remembered that last night the (piestion came up
as to whether they were mak ng any progress, and some c • iici m
was expressed as to why we did not show an increase of land cuTtT
vated each year. I want to call attention to the fact that we have
the same numbei' of people working each year; that is. there are the
same number of farmers or able-bodied Indians on the reservation
ihey will do about so much, and while we urge them all the time to
increase their acreage it is, as all of us who know anvtliino- about
Indians are aware, a very slow process, and when anvthing comes in
to distract their attention and to agitate them— get' them excited—
they simply quit work.
I am very sorry that this commission did not visit that countrv
1 would have been glad to introduce some testimonv in support of
these statements; to have shown you some things along that line
K^^,,., *^ ^^^^ ^'^11^^ before you the representative Indians
ot the tribe— the better men, the men who are going along attendino-
to their own business, and who take no stock in this sort of thin|
I Avould like to have called before vou the prominent and reliable
white men of that country.
Senator Lane. Mr. Scott, right in there, I would like to ask vou
whether they Mere prosperous before Mrs. Grev came there— pi-os-
perous, healthy, happy race of people, and that' thev have departed
from that condition now?
Mr. Scott. They were prosperous.
Senator Lane. They were not healthy.
Mr. Scott. They were happy as Indians alwavs will be happv
if they have half a chance.
Senator Lane. They were not verv healthy if 30 per cent actuallv
were suffering with tuberculosis.
Mr. Scott. I did not charge Mrs. Grey
Mrs. Grey. She was the first one to call it to the attention of
Washington, that that was the condition, though.
Senator Lane. Have they prospered in the same proportion that
the stockmen have, in the average, who have had the lands leased-—
financially ?
Mr. Scott. The Indians have not grown rich.
1904 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Senator Lane. Have some of the stockmen?
Mr. Scott. Some of the stockmen, I presume, have prospered.
Senator Lane. I would not be surprised that that is why it would
be easy to create a disturbance among them. It would not be hard
to attract their attention to that fact, nor to disturb them after
their attention was called to it.
Mr. Scott. The statement was made last night that Mr. Heinrich
had four or five times as mam^ cattle on that range as
The Chairman. Can we finish with the witness'^
Senator Lane. I do not know.
Mrs. Grey. Won't you permit him to put all that stuff in ^
The Chairman. It is not competent under any theory.
Mrs. Grey. Am I going to have an opportunity to answer them *.
Senator Lane. All the opportunity you want.
The Chairman. Very well. Senator Townsend said he wanted to
ask you some questions, Mr. Scott.
Mr. Scott. I will be either at the Indian Office or the National
Hotel.
(Whereupon, at 3.25 o'clock p. m., the joint commission adjourned
to meet at the call of the chairman.)
FEBRUARY 3, 1914.
Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. G .
The commission met in the office of the Senate Committee on
Indian Affairs at 2 o'clock j). m.
Present: Senators Kobinson (chairman). Lane, and Townsend;
Representative Stephens.
TESTIMONY OF W. W. SCOTT— Resumed.
Senator Townsend. There were one or two matters the other night
that I did not quite finish up. I did not suppose you were keeping
the witness over for that purpose. They were not anything par-
ticularl}^ important.
At a previous hearing on this Crow Reservation matter, it was
stated that the schools out there were being supported to some extent
by Federal appropriation and to some extent by appropriations from
the tribal funds ; is that correct ?
Mr. Scott. That was true at that time.
Senator Townsend. What time was that?
Mr. Scott. At the time of that period.
Senator Townsend. A year ago?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. Is it true now?
Mr. Scott, No, sir.
Senator Townsend. When was the change made?
Mr. Scott. For the fiscal year 1914.
Senator Townsend. So this year that plan has been discontinued?
Mr. Scott. This year all salaries are paid from the Indian fund;
that is, the salaries of all the school employees.
CROW IXDIAX RESERVATION. 1905
Senator Townsend. You h^^\(^ incf- ,.,,<. ^ £ ,
rJtl^d^&fZu^%''^r"""' ""■ <'"-""-"t -as to fur
.J™tt olr-Si S;.t;rtl^rnof'r'- "■>■>• -- "-' i'-
Mr. Scott. Not those positions.
Senator Lane. Xot what (
Mr. Scott. The positions that I had iiisr .n,..itw>,, . i i
been paid from thArihal funds, so i^'.^^'^ know f r Lminlv'n^t
since I haA-e had charge of the reservation. ^ficaniix not
Senator Townsend. What was thp nhi'pr.<- ..+' .i;„« *•
tri^ iSTa.^^:^^^^^ r.S.:or .:i;f tii: /iti^Js
should appropriate money to carry on the work \vl i e the nd
themselves were abundantly able to pay for the employees who oper
ated the school for their oMn children. ^
Senator Townsend. What is your opinion. Mr. Scott, as to the
advisability of purchasing cattle for the Indians and putting them
on as tribal herds— running them all too-ether ^
Mr. Scott. I feel that it is a matter that, so'far as being a matter
of money IS concerned, we will make more of them if theT are held
as a tribal herd ; as matter of advancement of the Indians, the de
velopnient of their business capacity, I .would sav that thev should
be ^distributed among them.
Senator Townsexd. Each one have his own herd '
Mr. Scott. Each Indian made responsible for his own herd
Senator Townsend. That is the great object of the administration,
to develop the Indian, is it not?
Mr. Scott. I so consider it.
Senator Townsend. Do you know what the policv is now in refer-
ence to that matter— wliat has been adopted with reference to it '
Mr Scott. My understanding is that the policv of the department
is to hold the herd intact: that is, to hold it as\i common herd, at
least for the present.
Senator Townsend. Believing that thev can make more monev for
the tribe m that way; is that their reason?
Mr. ScoTT. Partially, and also with the idea that the cattK' can be
better protected; that they can be protected from shiughter and from
surreptitious selling.
Senator Tow^nsend. By whom ?
Mr. ScoTT. By the employees who have charire of tlie herds.
Senator Towxsexd. I mean the sale and slaughter.
Mr. Scott. The sale by the Indians tliemselves? If an Indian lias
a herd of his own cattle he is very prone to turn it into cash— to
slaughter the cattle, when in need of meat, and it is imiiossihle to
prevent that entirely.
1906 CROW INDIAN EESERVATION.
Senator Town send. Does he have any right to do that? Can an
Indian sell his cattle if he wishes?
Mr. Scott. We hold that he has not; that he has no right to dis-
pose of any stock or any property that is purchased with trust funds.
Senator Townsend. But he is violating that rule, is he?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. To great extent?
Mr. Scott. It has been violated very largely ; yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. To whom does he sell?
Mr. Scott. Principally to the butchers in the neighboring towns,
but the greater amount of the killing is done for meat for the Indians
themselves. When an animal is slaughtered they divide it — divide it
out among a number of families. No Indian ever keeps an entire
carcass for his own use.
Senator Townsend. Where they do sell to the outside butchers — •
" neighboring butchers," I think you called them — and when you
learn about the sale, what do you do about it?
Mr. Scott. We have called them up and warned them against it,
but it is almost impossible to do anything. I do not know that we
could prosecute even if we could prove the fact.
Senator Townsend. You do not think there is any law for prose-
cuting them?
Mr. Scott. The cattle are stolen at night, j^ou know, and the prac-
tice is to sink the hides in the river, and it is very difficult, indeed, to
detect it.
Senator Townsend. For instance, here is a reservation Indian
whom you allow to have money to buy a team with. Supposing he
trades that team off, do you not go and look after it and get it back?
Mr. Scott. Yes; we do that.
Senator Townsend. There is a law for that, is there not?
Mr. Scott. I have always asumed we have the right to do that.
Senator Townsend. Do you think there is a different law that
applies to property of that kind — for example, a team — than applies
to cattle?
Mr. Scott. No, sir; I would think that it would be the same.
Senator Toavnsend. Have you, during your administration, made
any attempt to punish these " neighboring butchers " or anybody else
for purchasing stock of the Indians ?
Mr. Scott. Oh, yes; we do that all the time; we are watching for
it all the time.
Senator Townsend. You have made prosecutions?
Mr. Scott. We have. In one instance we prosecuted and con-
victed, and the parties were sentenced, but were paroled and no sen-
tence was enforced; but, as I say, the great bulk of the stock that
is killed is killed for the use of the Indians themselves. We of course
occasionally issue permits for the sale of cattle; that is, allow the
Indian to sell to the butchers, give him the written form, authorizing
a butcher to buy a certain-described animal, bearing certain brands,
and on that blank there is a form for return — statement of the pur-
chaser as to what he bought and what he paid for it — and that
return blank is filed with our permits.
Senator Townsend. Do these Indians ever sell to the big stockmen
out there?
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1907
Mr. Scott. No, sir; the stoclonen would not biiv from them.
Senator Townsend. Do any of the cattle of the' Indians pass into
the hands of the stockmen ?
Mr. Scott. Xo, sir; I am satisfied they do not. and I can tell von
why: There has been occasionally a charfrc that the stockmen liave
misbranded cattle, and it is to avoid anythinfi; of that kind. AVe
never issue a permit to an Indian and do not allow him to sell stock
to anyone to be run on the reservation under other ownership. The
permits read that the Indian may sell for immediate slaughter or
shipment, but not to run on the reservation; that is to avoid the con-
fusion that might arise from animals bearing the ID brand running
at large, belonging to some one else.
Senator Town send. Did you state the other night, Mr. Scott, about
how many stock the Indians on the Crow Reservation had ?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Senator Townsend. I thought you did. Can you repeat now how
many?
Mr. Scott. Our last return was from 1,400 to 1,500.
Senator Townsend. About how many Indians oAvn these 1,400 or
1,500 cattle?
Mr. Scott. There are two or three who own quite large herds, a
hundred or more, and the others are divided among different Indians,
a great many oAvning two or three or half a dozen, and so on; but
there are onl}^ a few, perhaps a dozen, who have herds of any im-
portance.
Senator Townsend. Do they have their allotments for their pas-
turage fenced separately ?
Mr. Scott. No, sir ; the cattle run at large.
Senator Tow^nsend. The cattle run at large?
Mr. Scott. Yes. You understand, the lands allotted to the In-
dians are supposed to consist of half allotments in irrigable or agri-
cultural lands and one-half grazing lands ; naturally these two classes
of lands do not lie together, and no one Indian has enough grazing
land to maintain any considerable herd of cattle.
Seator Townsend. That is what I was leading up to. Supposing
it was agreed by the department that each Indian should have his
own herd of cattle
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Senator Townsend. Would he have enough land of his own to sup-
port that herd if it was of any considerable number, say 20 ?
Mr. Scott. No, sir; he would not. They would have to run on the
open range as they do now.
Senator Townsend. Could they run these cattle on the tribal lands
and occupy it to advantage to the Indians?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. But the herds of the individual Indians would
have to be mixed ?
Mr. Scott. Yes; they would have to run together.
Senator Lane. Well, Mr. Scott, are they any differently situated
in that respect than are the lessees? Is not that true of the lessees—
they do not have any lands of their own, do they— enough to run
their herds on?
35601— PT 15—14 7
1908 CROW INDIAN EESERVATION.
Mr. ScoTi'. The lessees have certain pastures and they confine their
herds to those pastures.
Senator Lane. Could not that be done with the Indians, too ?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Senator Lane. That is what I thought. The situation is about the
same. Go ahead.
Senator Townsend. When they sell their cattle for shipment, who
is the purchaser?
Mr. Scott. They are shipped by the lessees with their stock, under
a provision of the lease or permit ?
Senator Townsend. That is, if a lessee ships several carloads of
cattle, he includes in the carload some of the Indians' cattle ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir; in rounding up cattle for shipment all the
Indian stock that is ready for market is carried right along with it
and tallies are made of It and it goes to market. The commission
men return the proceeds of sale to us and they are paid over to the
Indians at once.
Senator Townsend. Are they weighed separately — the Indians'
cattle?
Mr. Scott. Each
Senator Townsend. Are they separated from the herds of the
lessees of the stoclvyards or at any other place ?
Mr. Scott. Oh, yes; each animal is — the value of each animal is
returned separately with a statement as to the amount:— the charges,
freight, yardage, etc., and the brand.
Senator Townsend. What I want to get at is, you weigh each one
of the animals separately?
, Mr. Scott. We do not ; no, sir.
Senator Townsend. Who does?
Mr. Scott. They are weighed in Chicago in the market.
Senator Townsend. They do not weigh at Chicago the individual
cattle, do they? They run them in onto the scales to the extent the
scales or dock will hold, do they not?
Mr. Scott. My understanding of that is that they — and I gather it
from their returns — that so many cattle are of such weight, and they
are valued accordingly — the cattle are handled exactly as are those
of the lessees, in that respect.
Senator Townsend. I see that, but let us take a practical example.
You have 300 head of cattle out there on the range and I have 20
head, and they are put into the cars and shipped to Chicago all to-
gether. How do I know what my 20 weigh, except as an average?
If you had a hundred and I had 20, do I get twenty-one-hundred-
and-twentieths of the weight of the cattle ; is that it ?
Mr. ScoTT. I am unable to say just what the process is there. I
have noticed in the market reports of the receipt of cattle, so many
cattle from, say, Frank Heinrich, weighing so much; so many from
the same man weighing another amount. Now, how they arrive at
that weight, I am unable to say.
Senator Townsend. Are those cattle usually sold at Chicago?
Mr. ScoTT. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. Do you know who the purchaser is at Chicago?
Mr. Scott. There is a certain commission company to whom we
ship there. I can not recall the name just at the moment.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1909
Senator Townsend. Are they all shipped to the same cominission
merchant there?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsexd. Are you, as agent for the Indians, positive
Mr. Scott. Only by the market reports, and that is one advantage
of shipping with the lessees, we get the benefit of the highest price
paid.
Senator Townsend. We hear all kinds of rumors, Mr. Scott. I
want to ask you if you have ever heard that there was any collusion
between any of these big stoclanen out there and these commission
merchants, like Armour & Co., or any concern in Chicago or else-
where ?
Mr. Scott. I have never heard that suggested before.
Senator Townsend. You have never sent anybody with the cattle?
Mr. Scott. No; we have not.
Senator Lane. Are they in any way connected in business or have
any business relations with one another — these packers who pur-
chase cattle in Chicago and the lessees who raise the cattle on the
reservation and run them on the reservation?
Mr. Scott. I do not know of any connection. I know that some of
the lessees ship to different points.
Senator Lake. Take Heinrich, for instance. He is your largest
lessee, is he not ?
Mr. Scott. No; the Spear Bros, are the largest shippers. They
ship sometimes to Chicago and sometimes to Seattle.
Senator Lane. How about Heinrich; is he in any way connected
with these packers or associated with them?
Mr. Scott. Not to my knowledge.
Senator Lane. You were speaking about schools a while ago.
You say the Indian children are, or are they not, welcome into the
public schools?
Mr. Scott. No.
Senator Lane. They are not?
Mr. Scott. The public-school authorities object to receiving them.
Senator Lane. For what reason ?
Mr. Scott. They take the ground that an Indian or a member of
an Indian tribe is not entitled to the privileges of the public schools.
Senator Lane. And are the Indians taxed for the support of those
schools ?
Mr. Scott. We have very few Indians who pay taxes.
Senator Lane. Is that the only objection made against them?
Mr. Scott. Such taxes as they pay naturally would be their pro-
portion of the public-school fund. . .
Senator Lane. Are those Indians who have allotments citizens or
J. Q
Mr. Scott. Some of our Indians are citizens— about 42.5, but they
have never exercised the right of franchise, from the fact that we
have no voting precinct in that part of the country.
Senator Lane. They are scattered all around over the reserve, are
they — these citizens' children?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
1910 CROW INDIAN EESERVATION.
Senator Lane. They are not objected to except on account of the
expense they would put the county to; is that the only objection made
to their admission into public schools or not?
Mr. Scott. Well, there is objection by some on the ground of
health and also on the ground of moral inclination.
Senator Lane. Are the Indians not so healthy, do they claim, or
more healthy?
Mr. Scott. They are not so healthy as the white children.
Senator Lake. And their morals are not so good, they claim?
Mr. Scott, Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. What is your opinion in relation to those two ob-
jections?
Mr. Scott. I think that claim is correct.
Senator Lane. You think that is right?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. They are not so healthy nor are they so moral?
Mr. Scott. No, sir.
Senator Lane. And their habits are not so cleanly; is that ob-
jected to?
Mr. Scott. No; it is reasonable to suppose that they would be
neither so healthy nor of as high moral character, nor of as cleanly
habits.
Senator Lane. Why would that be reasonable?
Mr. Scott. Because they would not have the training; their home
conditions are entirely different.
Senator Lane. How long have these Indians been a public charge
and confined to a reservation — this band of Indians of whom you
are superintendent?
Mr. Scott. Many years.
Senator Lane. How many, do you suppose?
Mr. Scott. Forty years. The agency, I think, was first estab-
lished some 40 years ago.
Senator Lane. Then, you know from your experience with Indians
whether their health is better or worse than it was when the Gov-
ernment first took charge of them ?
Mr. Scott. I have only been familiar with the Crows during the
ijast three and a half years, and I think the health of the Indians
generally is distinctly better than it was at that time.
Senator Lane. Forty years ago?
Senator Townsend. Three and a half years ago.
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Senator Lane, How do you think it would compare with 40 years
ago?
Mr. Scott. I only know by the fact that the membership of the
tribe has steadily increased during that time.
' Senator Lane. Morally what do you think about it, compara-
tively speaking?
Mr. Scott. I think the morals are no better now than they were
40 years ago.
Senator Lane. There is, then, this complaint against them, that
they are not cleanly and that they are not so healthful, and also
that they are not so" moral, and that the white children would suffer
in those respects if brought into association with the Indians?
Mr. Scott. You might add to that the fact that the school facili-
ties for the whites on the reservation are so limited that if the
CROW IXDIAN RESERVATION. 1911
fw tor^"^^ Permited to attend the schools there would not be room
Senator Lane. There are some of these Indians who do pay taxes
tor the support of schools?
Mr. Scott. There are some of the Indians who pay a small amount
or tax.
Senator Lane. Do their children go to school ?
• Mr. Scott. No, sir.
Senator Lane. They are excluded for the same reasons tliat the
others are?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. There have been statements made— all we want
here is to find out the facts, Mr. Scott, without prejudice— to the
effect that the lessees do sublease their land in some cases, also that
there is a pretty close business association between the large interests
who purchase cattle in the large stock markets at Chicago and
elsew'here.
Mr. ScoTT. As to the subleasing, the Spear Brothers have taken on
a number of sheep. AVe have not considered that a sublease, and
the fact that they do not set aside any certain proportion of the
range, but merely took in the sheep, allowed them to run in lieu of
that many cattle, the sheep man paying into the office his proportion-
ate share of the rental.
Senator Lane. Individually?
Mr. ScoTT. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Separate from the man who has the lease?
Mr. ScoTT. He is paying it into the office separately.
Senator Lane. Without a lease or permit ?
Mr. Scott. Without a lease.
Senator Lane. Or permit?
Mr. ScoTT. And with no agi'eement on file in the office, merely an
understanding. That understanding and practice has been in effect,
I am unable to say how long. It was in effect when I went there.
Senator Lane. And has been going on continuously since you have
been there?
Mr. Scott. Has been going on continuously'.
I want to add to that, so far as I have been able to ascertain — and
I have been at some trouble to make the inquiries — none of the o(her
lessees have any such arrangement.
Senator Lane. Xone of the others?
Mr. Scott. None of the others.
Senator Lane. And this then must be in the nature of a ])rivate
agreement ?
Mr. Scott. It is a private agreement— —
Senator Lane. If I understand you.
Mr. Scott. That has been acquiesced in by the office.
Senator Lane. I beg vour pardon. .
Mr. Scott. It is a private agreement that has been acquiesced m
by the office. Mr. Spear's contract provides that he sliali_pay for a
certain minimum number of cattle at a certain rate— $"-*.a( ihu- head.
Well, it has not been for the most iiart iH-acticable for him to nm
the minimum amount of cattle and for that reason he has taken in
this sheep man.
Senator Lane. To helj^ him use the range?
1912 CEOW INDIAN EESEEVATION.
Mr. Scott. To help him use the range. I know of no arrangement
whatever between the lessees and the commission houses, and would
be very much surprised, indeed, to laiow that there is such an ar-
rangement.
Senator Lane. Between them and the packing companies, such as
Swift & Armour ?
Mr. Scott. I know of no such arrangement at all. •
Senator Lane. I beg your pardon.
Mr. Scott. I know of no such arrangement. Our lessees are men
of high standing, and it would require very substantial proof to con-
vince me that they resort to trickery for the purpose of making a few
dollars at the expense of the Indians.
Senator Lane. I will ask you whether or not any of these lessees
who run sheep or cattle on the range, have been connected up in a
business way with the large packing interests, say, at Omaha, or
elsewhere, that you loiow of ?
Mr. Scott. The Spear Bros., I understand, are backed by Omaha
capital. Just what the connection is, I am unable to say. I know
that Mr. Bostwick, who, as I said recently has been president of the
Spear Bros. Cattle Co., is or was in the banking business at Omaha.
Senator Lane. What bank was he in ?
Mr. Scott. I do not know.
Senator Lane. Do you know whether or not that bank is a bank
belonging to the packing companies, the largest part of the stock
of the bank being held by the packers?
Mr. Scott. I do not laiow who helds the stock.
Senator Lane. If Ave show that the bank was a subsidiary corpo-
ration in close business association with large packing companies,
and that Bostwick and the Spear Bros, were being backed by
that bank in their handling of the range and the cattle on the range,
and then their cattle and the Indians' cattle together were shipped
to Omaha or Chicago, and sold to these identical packers at the price
set by themselves — as I understand, you do not set the price, do you?
Mr. Scott. The price is controlled by the market.
Senator Lane. The market is controlled by the large packers, is
it not? Then it would be a case where the large packing com-
pany would be controlling both ends of the situation, would it not?
Mr. Scott. I would consider that a very undesirable combination.
Senator Lane. That, hoAvever, would be a hard and fast combina-
tion, would it not?
Mr. Scott. Yes; but I have every reason to believe that the Spear
Bros. haA^e no connection, other than as cattlemen, Avith the bank.
In the handling of large herds it is necessary for them to borrow
very largely. Their investment represents an immense sum of
money. They are unable to carry it without occasionally call-
ing on the banks. A short time ago Mr. Willis Spear, Avho is
the principal manager of Spear Bros, in Montana, told me that
in order to stock a certain range that he Avas trying to lease it Avould
be necessary for him to borroAV a large sum of money, and that the
way the money market Avas at this time he was very doubtful about
being able to do it. The Spear Bros. Cattle Co. has recently been
dissolved. The younger brother, William Spear, retiring, and an-
other partnership being formed; and as to Avhcther Mr. Bostwick
is ]Dresident of the ncAv organization, that I do not know. I have
not seen their papers.
CROW INDIAN EESERVATION. 19] 3
Senator Lane. What connection has Bostwick Avith the reserva-
tion other than as a lessee? it^ n%a
Mr. Scott. None. He is not connected as a lessee
Senator Lane. He was not ?
Mr. Scott. My understanding is that they merely carried the
paper of this cattle firm. "^ «^aiiicu uie
Senator Lane. Spear Bros. ?
,l.^'';^ Scott Yes; that they loaned to them when necessary, and
that that is all the connection that I have known between tliem
Senator Lane. Ion do not know, then, whether or not the "Beef
Trust, as it is called— the large packing combine— are the actual
lessees operating on your reserve, through these other men, who are
their agents and partners ?
Mr. Scott. I have good reason to believe they are not, from the
fact that the Spear Bros, are cattlemen, pure and simple They
have lived on the reservation, or in the States of Montana and Wyo-
ming, all their lives, and have grown up from a small beginning to
the best proportion of their business.
Senator Lane. The Indians, to the number of about 100, have
signed a complaint asking that Heinrich be removed from the res-
ervation. Do you laiow anything about that ?
Mr. Scott. There has been quite a prejudice against Heinrich. As
I stated the other night, a very large part of the Indians of the
reservation live on the range that is occupied by Heinrich. Naturally
there is more or less friction between them. Heinrich accusing them
of killing his cattle
Senator Lane. Accused them of what?
Mr. ScoTT. Accuses them of killing his cattle and of various other
things, and an ill feeling has groAvn up in that way.
Senator Lane. Then, after the Indians preyed upon his cattle and
ate them ; I presume that is what you mean ?
Mr. Scott, Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. They would not, in the very ordinary course of
reasoning, be anxious to get rid of him on that account. They
would not lodge that as a complaint against him, would they, with
any show of reason?
Mr. Scott. The feeling against him has grown until it is quite
serious. It originated, I think, in the prosecution of some Indians,
1 think, by Heinrich for cattle killing.
Senator Lane. For cattle killing?
Mr. Scott. Yes. And I want to say that this feeling has been
worked up by the Indians who had their grievance a^ain him,
whether real or fancied, and it is characteristic of the Indians to all
go together.
Senator Lane. But they never charged that, as alleged, as a cause
for his removal, that they were killing his cattle?
Mr. Scott. Oh, no.
Senator Lane. Do they not allege, on the contrary, that he was
driving away their cattle?
Mr. Scott. There has been two or three cases where charges of
misbranding have been preferred. We have, in each case made a
very thorough examination, and have discovered nothing whatever to
substantiate the charge; and, in fact, the charge has lieen clearly dis-
proven. As I said a while ago. Mr. Heinrich conkl not a fiord to
1914 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
trick the Indians to make a few dollars. He could not afford to go
out and brand a calf that does not belong to him, and turn it loose
on the range where it would be sure to be discovered, just for the
possibility of gaining possession of that calf. It is unreasonable to
suppose that he would do a thing of that kind. We have very care-
fully and very thoroughly examined into all these cases.
Senator Lane. The Indians, you say, have refused to work upon
the fence. I understood you to say that the other night.
Mr. Scott. They did for quite a while. We delayed the work for
two or three weeks trying to get them to work.
Senator Lane. Did j'^ou delay paying them their annuities until
they did go to work?
Mr. Scott. No, sir ; that has nothing to do with it.
Senator Lane. There has been some complaint made by the Indians
that something of that sort happened.
Mr. Scott. It has been customary to make a fall annuity payment,
but it was not made this fall.
Senator Lane. Why did you defer that payment last fall? Did
you have the money to pay it with ?
Mr. Scott. No.
Senator Lane. What was the reason, Mr. Scott?
Mr. Scott. We had to use quite an amount of money for irrigating
purposes. I requested the office to furnish me with funds sufficient
to make a $25 payment, and was advised — —
Senator Lane. $25 per capita?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir; and was advised that the money was not
available at that time.
Senator Lane. When was this — -when did you do that ?
Mr. Scott. That was about the 1st of November.
Senator Lane. When do you. usually pay that annuity?
Mr. Scott. LTsually in November or December.
Senator Lane. And about that time you began to spend the money,
you say, for irrigation?
Mr. Scott. We had, owing to some damage to the ditches by
flood — we had been obliged to use quite an amount of Indian money.
Senator Lane. Annuity money?
Mr. Scott. No. Well, it is money — it is from the same fund from
which the annuity is paid or part of the annuity. Under an agree-
ment with the Indians we pay them part from the proceeds of the
sale of ceded lands, and partly from Indian moneys, from a fund that
we call " Indian moneys, proceeds of labor," which includes the graz-
ing moneys.
Senator Lane. At this time, then, when you set aside this money
to pay for damages done to the irrigation ditches, I understood you
to say that you did not have enough money on hand to also pay
them their annuities?
Mr. Scott. No, sir ; I think not.
Senator Lane. Are you real sure? Did you inquire?
Mr. Scott. I made requisition on the office for the money.
Senator Lane. At that time?
Mr. Scott. At that time.
Senator Lane. For the purpose of paying the annuity ?
Mr. Scott. For the purpose of paying the annuity, and was ad-
vised that we did not have the money. A part of that money is
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1915
expended from the Indian Office direct. It does not all come through
our office, and consequently I could not know at that time iiist what
we had.
Senator Lane. Do the annuities come to you to be paid out always?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. You handle the annuities?
Mr. ScoTt. Always.
Senator Lane. And also the money for paying for irrigation re-
pairs ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. In the last analysis, you handle the moneys there?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. You being in closer touch with the Indians than
anyone else naturally know their needs. You stated here a day or
two ago that the Indians this season would go into the winter under
distressed conditions for lack of funds, for lacks of means to carry
them through the winter, I understood you to say ?
Mr. Scott. I think I did not use the word " distressed."
Senator Lane. I understood you to say " short."
Mr. Scott. Broke, or something of that kind.
Senator Lane. " Broke " ; that is a distressing condition.
Mr. Scott. We paid no annuity, and they refused to work for
wages ; conseqently they had no money, except such as came to them
from the sales of land and from private lessees — the lessees of allot-
ted lands.
Senator Lane. Private persons, in small tracts?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Having failed to plow and to work and earn the
money during the summer and fall season, they were, as I understood
you to say the other day, entering upon a winter season when they
needed money with less money than was necessary to carry them
through with comfort?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. And just at that time you were anxious to got them
at work on the fence, and also just at that time the annuity did not
come along or failed to arrive, so that added to the condition of their
want, did it not?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir — yes ; were it not for the fact that the traders
extend credit, we would be obliged to help them.
Senator Lane. In the case they got into great distress, and assum-
ing that the traders refused to extend credit, Avould these Indians
starve before they would get that annuity, or could you hustle around
and secure it for them ?
Mr. Scott. We would have to see that they got something to eat.
We always do that in individual cases of want that occur occa-
sionally.
Senator Lane. Have you any idea when that annuity will be paid
to them ?
Mr. Scott. No, sir; I expect to take the matter uji with the com-
misioner.
Senator Lane. Have you inquired since you have been here?
Mr. Scott. No; I have not had a conference with the commis-
sioner.
Senator Lane. Have you seen him?
Mr. Scott. Only for a moment.
1916 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Senator Lane. Only for a moment since you have been here?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Have you seen anyone else in the office ?
Mr. Scott. Not about that.
Senator Lane. About any other business?
Mr. Scott. Oh, yes.
Senator Lane. And you did not inquire concerning that?
Mr, Scott. Not as to the annuity, because I wanted to take it up
with the chief.
Senator Lane. It is stated by the Indians that this line of fence
makes a jog of a mile or two or several miles, and then comes around
and incloses or fences off from the reservation practically lands
which are now either owned or held by one of the big cattle com-
panies, and apparently makes that jog from a straight line to include
those properties, and then goes on in a straight line again; what
about that ?
Mr. Scott. The only jogs made in the line are to reach a country —
are to accommodate that fence to the contour of the country, or to
take in on the Indians' side certain water courses.
Senator Lane. For the purpose of taking in water for the benefit
of the Indians ?
Mr. Scott. For the benefit of the Indians ; yes, sir.
I have a map, if you would care to see it, showing all that.
Senator Lane. Is it like this one [indicating blue print map pre-
sented by Mrs. Grey] or larger ?
Senator Townsend. I notice sometimes you speak of the " Henry "
lease and again of the Heinrich lease; are they both the same?
Mr. Scott. The name is spelled " H-e-i-n-r-i-c-h," but is pro-
nounced " Henry."
Senator Townsend. I thought it w^as the same person, but I was
not sure.
Mr. Scott. Would you care to look at this [indicating map] ?
Senator Lane. Yes; suerely we want to see about that fence.
Mr. Scott. There is the fence [indicating on map] and this is the
jog to the south.
Senator Lane. How many miles?
Mr. Scott. As I remember it — I drew that from memory, and am
not absolutely sure it is correct — ^but the fence does jog down here
to take in this water.
Senator Lane. Takes in this water here?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. The land lying on the other side, who does it fence
out and form a line of fence for, any private person ? »
Mr. Scott. I do not know.
Senator Lane. Have you ever ridden over that line?
Mr. Scott. Not entirely.
Senator Lane. Who checks it for you?
Mr. Scott. Mr. Jenkins.
Senator Lane. And who is Mr. Jenkins?
Mr. Scott. Mr. Jenkins is stock inspector, designated by the com-
missioner to build the fence, the line — the location of the fence.
Senator Lane. This [indicating blue-print map] seems to be the
same thing you have there ?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1917
Senator Lane. Some one has run this off down at the office, I sup-
pose ? ^
Mr. Scott. That is the same thing.
Senator Lane. Where is this Heinrich land?
Mr. Scott. I do not know where Heinrich's line is.
Senator Lane (to Mrs. Grey). Do you know where it is?
Mrs. Grey. Yes.
Mr. Scott. The location of the fence was decided upon by a board
appointed by the Secretary and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs.
Senator Lane. Do you know where Joe Cooper's land is ?
Mr. Scott. Yes; approximately. I do not remember the section.
Mrs. Grey. Here it is on the map [indicating].
Senator Lane. And it forms a line of fence?
Mrs. Grey. Yes ; there is a line of fence.
Senator Lane. From this main line? Does it jog to get to that?
Mrs. Grey. No; it is an air line. Then, Heinrich has got quite a
lot in here [indicating] , I think, and I think he owns quite a lot in
here [indicating].
Mr. Scott. Heinrich owns land on both sides of the fence.
Senator Lane. All right, now. Then, it seems to me
Mrs. Grey. The fence makes an actual boundary of Heinrich's
land. It actually fences the land a long distance.
Senator Lane. The Indians, as I understood you to say, have less
cattle now than they had a number of years ago ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. They are in almost a condition of want at this time?
Mr. Scott. They are out of money.
Senator Lane. Why? Buying on credit?
Mr. Scott. They are well provided for in other respects; that is,
they have — they are well clothed. They have plenty of agricultural
implements, plenty of horses.
Senator Lane. But food supplies
Mr. Scott. But their food supply is short.
Senator Lane. Then, I will modify that statement. They have
fewer cattle than they formerly had?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Senator Lane. Their health is not so good or no better ?
Mr. Scott. I think their health is no worse; in fact, I believe it is
better.
Senator Lane. Better, you think?
Mr. Scott. I think so.
Senator Lane. But not good enough so the whites want them to
associate with their children, for fear they will be contaminated with
disease; the Indians have a larger percentage of tuberculosis than
the white children?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Senator Lane. And also trachoma?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Senator Lane. They are a little short of food. Their condition,
then, evidentlv has not been improving?
Mr. Scott.' Their condition has improved steadily since I Imew
them until this past— until this time. It is characteristic of the In-
dian to spend his money as fast as he gets it.
Senator Lane. Mr. Scott, about that right there
1918 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Mr. Scott. If the source of supply is cut off, they soon run out of
money.
Senator Lane. From your experience in life, not as an Indian
agent or sviperintenclent, is not that the natural tendency of most
people, to spend their money ?
Mr. Scott. I think it is not as pronounced as with the Indians.
Senator Lane. I think perhaps that is true. The Indian does not
pay as much heed or have as much regard for money as most of the
whites.
The Indians claim that this fence gives the majority of the water
to Heinrich and that the Indians' range, in the event that you pur-
chase this herd of cattle, will be, comparatively speaking, a " dry "
range, a range where the cattle will have to go a long distance to get
water, and consequently not so advantageous, and will be a poor
range for cattle. Do you laiow whether that is true or not?
Mr. Scott. That is not true.
Senator Lane. That is not true?
Mr. Scott. No, sir.
Senator Lane. Mrs. Grey, you wanted to ask Mr. Scott some ques-
tion. Do you care to do that now ?
Mrs. Grey. Yes. Mr. Scott, you say that Mr. Bostwick is just a
cattleman?
Mr. Scott. No ; I did not say that.
Mrs. Grey. Is he not a very big banker ?
Mr. Scott. I said that Mr. Bostwick was a banker: I did not say
that he was a cattleman.
Mrs. Grey. He is the man who has the money that is in the Spear
Bros. Cattle Co., is he not?
Mr. Scott. Bostwick was president of the Spear Bros. Cattle Co.
at one time. I do not know whether he is now or not. The Spear
Bros. Cattle Co. has been dissolved, I understand.
Mrs. Grey. The Spear Bros. Cattle Co. has been dissolved, and it
has been reformed, and it is now the Spear-Zimmerman Cattle Co.,
is it not ; and they are all in the company except Willis Spear, who
is down on the Powder River ?
Mr. Scott. The only members of the company that I know are Mr.
Willis Spear and Mr. Zimmerman. I do not know who composes
that company other than that.
Mrs. Grey. Mr. Bostwick is still a member of the Spear Bros.
Cattle Co. ?
Mr. Scott. I do not know.
Mrs. Grey. In the Rand-McNally's Bankers' Directory, which I
got from the library, I found that these [indicating paper] were the
members of the bank of which Bostwick was president [handing
paper to witness].
Mr. Scott (examining paper). Yes. I have no knowledge of that
fact at all.
Senator Lane. Read those names so that we' may hear ^Yho they
are, Mrs. Grey.
Mrs. Gkey. Mr. Keating is here, and he will remember where we
got this list. Mr. Bostwick is the president of the Stock Yards
National Bank, South Omaha. The stockholders are J. O. Armour,
F. W. Clarke. R. C. Howe, E. M. Morsmau, jr., K. C. Barton, H. C.
Bostwick, J. C. French, E. C. Cudahy, jr.. Barton Millard, E. Buck-
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1919
ingham R J Dunham J S King, C. F. Coffee, E. A. Cudahv, jr.,
J. D. fetandish, T. Buck, C. E. Yost. ^ ' j '
Senator Lane. These are members of what, do you say«
Mrs. Grey. Of the Stock Yards National Bank, of South Omaha,
Senator Lane. Are they connected with the Spear Bros.?
Mrs. Grey. In examining the testimony that was taken when In-
spector Norris Avas there it was shoAvn that Inspector Norris went to
this bank to find out how many cattle both Ileini-ich and Bostwick
run— Hemrich and Spear Bros, run on the reservation. The re-
turns were made from the Eosenbaum Bros, to the South Omaha
Stock Yards Bank for both.
Senator Lane. That did not connect them up necessarily ?
Mrs. Grey. Yes ; Mr. Heinrich did not know until the end of the
year how many cattle there were.
Senator Lane. And he received his information from the bank?
Mrs. Grey. From the bank.
Senator Lane. What else have you to ask him ?
Mrs. Grey. Mr. Scott, who has No. 6 at the present time?
Mr. Scott. Frank Heinrich is running No. 6.
Mrs. Grey. He has 400,000 acres on No. 6, has he not?
Mr. Scott. No ; there is not 400,000 acres in that.
Mrs. Grey. Then, who has got No. 3 ?
Mr. Scott. The Rae Bros, had No. 3 leased up to the 1st of
this month.
Mrs. Grey. Who gets it now?
Mr. Scott. It is not leased.
^ Mrs. Grey. Then, as it stands at present. Spear Bros, and Hein-
rich control all of the reservation except No. 3, do they not?
Mr. Scott. No. 4 is leased to McDaniels.
Mrs. Grey. Just now you said Heinrich had that.
Senator Lane. You said Heinrich leased that; now does he or not?
Mr. Scott. Used to.
Mrs. Grey. Has there not recently been a deal between Frank
Heinrich and McDaniels by which Heinrich gets that range?
Mr. Scott. Not to my knowledge.
Mrs. Grey. You do not know anything about it?
Mr. Scott. I know that Heinrich bought some cattle from Mc-
Daniels.
Mrs. Grey. Yes; and are not the cattle running down on that
range ?
Mr. Scott. I believe they are. They were the last I knew. Mc-
Daniels has failed, I understand, and the matter is in process of
adjustment.
Mrs. Grey. And Heinrich has arranged to put the cattle on to that
range ?
Mr. Scott. I do not know about that.
Mrs. Grey. He has an application before the department for it,
has he not?
Mr. Scott. Not to my knoAvledge.
Mrs. Grey. You say there are no subleases on the reservation
except that of Lee Simonson?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Mrs. Grey. Has Charles Heinrich any cattle running on the res-
ervation ?
1920 CROW INDIAN EESERVATION.
Mr. Scott. Who?
Mrs. Grey. Charles Heinrich?
Mr. Scott. Not to my knowledge; I can not tell. There may be
some cattle
Senator Lane. If there were, you would know it?
Mr. Scott. He might have cattle on the extreme end of the range,
without my knowledge. He owns some land inside the reservation.
Senator Lane. Then he would be a trespasser, would he not?
Mr. Scott. If he had cattle outside of the land that he owns, he
would. He has a pasture on the south side.
Senator Lane. I know, but if he was on the reserve with cattle he
would be trespassing ; is that what you understand ?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir ; unless he was there by some arrangement with
the permittee.
Senator Lane. Oh, well, now. I understood that if he did that he
would be a sort of a sublessee, would he not, and subletting?
Mr. Scott. He would be what?
Senator Lane. He would be there with the permission of the
lessee. Would not the lessee have to give you notice to that effect?
Mr. Scott. They are supposed to give us notice.
Senator Lane. Do they not forfeit their contract, if they do
not?
Mr. Scott. Not under the permit; no, sir.
Senator Lane. They can do this under the permit?
Mr. Scott. Under the permit.
Mrs. Grey. At the present time, for when the last permits were
let there was no restriction on subleasing on any permit on the Crow
Reservation ?
Mr. Scott. No.
Mrs. Grey. Why was the clause taken out of the leases?
Mr. ScoTT. I do not know.
Mrs. Grey. Has E. L. Dana any cattle running on the reserva-
tion?
Mr. Scott. Not to my knowledge.
Mrs. Grey. Has Jack Kennedy?
Mr. Scott. No.
Mrs. Grey. Has Mr. Snidow?
Mr. Scott. No.
Mrs. Grey. Has Mr. Booz?
Mr. Scott. No.
Mrs. Grey. You are positive of that?
Mr. Scott. Mr. Booz has been trying very industriously to get
some cattle on the reservation through a private deal with some
Indian, and, on the advice of Mrs. Grey, I understand, has taken
the matter up with the office, but so far he has not succeeding in
getting
Mrs. Grey. You are positive he has no sublease on the reservation?
Mr. Scott. I have such a report from our stockman.
Mrs. Grey. Who would that be — Mr. Campbell ?
Mr. Scott. No ; Mr. Haney made that report.
Mrs. Grey. Where Avould the cattle be shipped from on those lower
ranges on the Heinrich and the Spear ranges ?
Mr. Scott. They are shipped from different points.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1921
Mrs. Grey. Is Aberdeen on the reservation ?
Mr. Scott. No.
Mrs. Grey. Aberdeen is not on the reservation ?
Mr. Scott. We do not ship from Aberdeen.
Mrs. Grey. Aberdeen is on the reservation, is it not?
Mr. Scott. I do not know just where the Aberdeen station is.
Senator Lane. I beg your pardon.
Mr. Scott. I do not know where the Aberdeen station is.
Mrs. Grey. Is not that where Frank Heinrich always ships from?
He ships from Lodge Grass but very seldom.
Senator Lane. Is that where he always ships from?
Mr. Scott. We ship from different stations — Lodge Grass, Little
Horn Station, and what we call Big Horn Y.
Mrs. Grey. Is not this Aberdeen on the map? [Shows map and
points out town marked "Aberdeen."]
Senator Lane. Do you not know?
Mr. Scott. I do not.
Senator Lane. You do not know where Aberdeen is?
Mr. Scott. I do not Imow just where the station of Aberdeen is;
no.
Mrs. Grey. It could not be below Parkman, could it?
Senator Lane. Just a moment. Could such a place as Aberdeen
be shown on the map as on the reserve without your laiowing it?
Mr. Scott. We do not ship from Aberdeen.
Senator Lane. Could there be such a place as Aberdeen on the
reserve without your Icnowing it ?
Mr. Scott. It might be merely a whistling point.
Senator Lane. Mr. Scott, Senator Townsend and I have never
been on the reservation, and neither of us have seen it, and we Imow
nothing of these descriptions, and when Aberdeen is given as a point
on the reservation it seems to me that it could not exist there without
your knowing it.
Mr. ScoTT. I do not loiow just where the station of Aberdeen is; I
have never had occasion to locate it at all.
Senator Lane. Did you ever hear of it ?
Mr. Scott. I never had occasion to stop there.
Senator Lane. Did you ever hear of it ?
Mr. Scott. I have heard of Aberdeen; there is a pasture down
there at Aberdeen.
Mrs. Grey. Is that on the reservation ?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Mrs. Grey. Whereabouts?
Mr. Scott. In the southern part.
Mrs. Grey. Do you Imow who the Basin Cattle Co. is?
Mr. Scott. No ; I do not.
Mrs. Grey. Look at that [exhibiting paper to the witness]. Is that
a shipment of cattle from Aberdeen ?
(Mr. Scott examines papers.)
Mrs. Grey. You can tell at a glance. You Imow that it is, do you
not?
Mr. Scott. It appears to be.
Mrs. Grey. It could not possibly be anything else, could it ?
1922 CROW INDIAN EESERVATION.
Senator Lane. Let me see it.
(The paper in question was handed to Senator Lane.)
Mrs. Grey. It is a shipment of $40,000 worth of cattle from Aber-
deen.
Senator Lane. Is it or is it not ?
Mr. Scott. That purports to be a shipment ; yes.
Senator Lane. From Aberdeen?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Senator Lane. Which is on the reservation or not?
Mr, Scott, As I say, I do not know. It is near the State line, and
I am unable to say whether it is on the reservation or oif of it.
Senator Lane. Was this shipment made by the Basin Cattle Co.?
You laiow nothing about this, then, at all ?
Mr, Scott, I know nothing about that.
Senator Lane. Bvit if it was shipped from Aberdeen, it was
shipped from within the lines of the reserve; would that be true or
not?
Mr. Scott. I say I do not know where the station Aberdeen is.
It is merely a stockyard.
Mrs. Grey. That is the map of the Crow Reservation [indicating
map] .
Senator Lane. Just a minute. I do not know whether it is on the
north or the south side of the line. Is it on the line of the railway?
Mr. Scott, It would be ; it is a point that cuts no figure whatever
in our business there.
Mrs. Grey. That is Heinrich's principal shipping point; that is
on the reservation, you see, and on the Heinrich pasture [indicating].
Senator Lane. It is marked here on the map found in Senate doc-
ument, volume 27, Sixtieth Congress, first session, 1907-8, Hear-
ings Relative to the Crow Indian Reservation, and there is a point
marked here which I want you to identify, if you can — whether these
are the lines of the reservation or not, around here, and if that point
marked "Aberdeen " there is a station. Do you know where Wy-
ola is?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. And did you ever hear of a place called Little
Horn?
Mr, Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Did you ever hear of Parkman ?
Mr, Scott. Yes.
Senator Lane. Aberdeen seems to lie between Wyola and Park-
man, inside the reserve.
Mrs. Grey. Inside the Heinrich pasture, is it not ?
Senator Lane. That Avould be inside?
Mr. Scott. That I take to be the reserve line [indicating].
Senator Lane. Is that now the reserve line?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. If there were cattle shipped from Aberdeen, they
would be shipped from inside the lines of the reserve. Would any-
body else ship cattle there except lessees?
Mr. Scott. Thev do sometimes; yes, sir.
Senator Lane. They do that?
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1923
Mr 8coTT. Yes. sir: they suiiietimes ship cattle from the Bur
Horn Y. - •=
Senator Laxe. Did you ever hear
Mr. Scott. They get permission from us to come in and cross the
line for the purpose of shipping.
Senator Lane. If they shipped from a station called Aberdeen
inside the line, they would have to have permission from you to law-
fully do so?
Mr. Scott. They could either get that from us or the lessee. It is
his grass they would use; and when Ave have calls for such permits
I always refer them to the man who is paying for the f^rass.
Senator Lane. Then the lessee has a right to give permits also to
ship from within the reserve lines?
Mr. Scott. He has the right to give permits to allow stock to
cross his
Senator Lane. And be shipped from a station within the reserve
lines?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. And does not have to ask you to countersi'm or
O. K. that?
Mr. Scott. That is for the convenience of shippers. This point
here [indicating] is probably more convenient for people having
cattle along here [indicating] in Wyoming, as you see, it is only a
short distance inside the line.
Mrs. Orey, Would not they be inspected if brought o\ er the line ?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Mrs. Grey. Do they not always avoid that where they can? Would
there be any reason for taking the cattle up on the reservation and
past another station?
Mr. Scott. Oh, yes: that is frequently done.
Senator Lane. The}^ would still be subject to inspection if they got
over the line?
Mr. Scott. I think they would be: yes. I think the matter of
inspection is a very small matter.
Senator Lane. They would not have to come to you for a permit?
Mr. Scott. They would not ; no.
Mrs. Grey. Then there are subleases on the reservation that you
would not know anything about?
Mr. Scott. No ; that is not a sublease at all.
Mrs. Grey. These people have a sublease on the reservation — the
Basin Cattle Co. are leasing Avhat is called the "dry corner" on the
reservation, and this was their shipment last August.
Mr. Scott. That is merely a statement, INIrs. Grey.
Mrs. Grey. Well, there is their shipment from the reservation.
Mr. Scott. Mr. Chairman. I suggest that it is only fair that you
should require some proof of the statements made by Mrs. Grey.
Senator Lane. Oh, yes. This is her assertion, you know, and it
goes for what it is worth. It would have to be be verified.
Mrs. Grey. I submit that for the record — this shipment receipt.
35G01— PT 15—14 8
1924 CROW INDIAN EESEEVATION.
(The paper here submitted by Mrs. Grey is as follows:)
[Rosenbaiim Bro.^. & Co. due. », live stock commission merchants. Union Stock Yards,
Chicngo, 111., 9/1. 191:;. Sold for account of Basin Cattle Co. Sale No. 37838.
Shipped by . From Aberdeen.]
Purchaser.
Number and kind of cattle.
Weight.
Off price.
Amount.
212 steers
252,210
20,730
53,150
63,950
13,540
5,750
7,790
87,050
92,980
36,000
19,770
880
3,040
J8.00
7.50
7.15
7.15
7.15
8.00
7.50
6.60
7.65
7.65
6.25
5.25
$20,176.80
Do
20 steers..
1,554.75
S & S. Co
47 steers
3,800.22
Do
4,572.42
11 steers
968.11
Do
5 steers
460. 00
7 steers
584.25
Cndahv
88 steers
5,745.30
87 heifers
7,112.97
Do .
38 heifers
2,758.59
S. & S. Co
19 cows
1,334.47
Do
1 cow
46.20
1 steer (dead).
595
656,900
49, 120. 08
Total $49, 120. 08
Railroad charges :
Freis'ht (including feed on thf' road) $3,543.94
Yardage 148. 7.5
Hay : 59. 40
Fire insurance (10 cents per car) 2.80
Commission 304. 33
4, 059. 22
Net
proceeds 45, 060. 86
Cy.
45, 180. 86
450. 00
44, 730. 86
[Duplicate.]
Farmers & Traders Bank, Billings, Mont.
Mrs. GREY^ Mr. Scott, you said that the Indians slaughtered their
cattle. What evidence have you of that ?
Senator Lake. Their own cattle, you mean?
Mrs. Grey. Yes ; their own cattle or any cattle on the reservation.
Do not the Indians deny that?
INIr. Scott. No ; they do not deny it.
Senator Lane. Have you ever seen any cattle they had slaughtered f
Mr. Scott. There? i i i jq
Senator Lane. Have you ever seen any cattle they had slaughtered?
Mr. ScoTT. I have had them tell me that they did it, frequently.
Senator Lane. Have you checked it up to see whether it is true,
and ascertain the facts as to whether they had killed them or not?
Mr. Scott. I never had any reason to deny it — I have never had
any reason to doubt it. I should say. Many cases have been reported
by"^ the stockmen and farmers, and on calling the Indian out and
inquiring he would acknowledge it was true.
Senator Lane. You have done that, have you?
Mr. Scott. I have done that frequently.
Mrs. Grey'. You say you have warned the butchers not to buy from
them. Gan you give the name of one butcher that you have so
notified?
:Mr. Scott. McDaniel & Wood, of Hardin.
JNIrs. Grey. AVas that the prosecution that you had m mmd?^
T^Ir. SroTT. There was a prosecution there for— yes; that is the
prosecution.
CROW INDIAN KESEHVATION. 1925
Mrs. Gkkv. AVas it an Indian that was prosecuted?
Mr. Scott. There is an Indian
Mrs. (trey. Who Avas it?
INIr. Scott. John Whiteman.
Mrs. Grfa-. Was he convicted?
Mr. Scott. He was; but
• Mrs. Grey. Was John Whiteman convicted ?
Mr. Scott. He was allowed to go.
Mrs. Grey. McDonald was convicted, but not Whiteman?
Mr. Scott. McDonald was convicted.
Mrs. Grey. Whiteman Avas not convicted, was he?
Mr. Scott, That is my recollection.
Mrs. Grey. In all these years, have you ever convicted another
Indian ?
Mr. Scott. We have never prosecuted the Indians for killing their
own cattle.
Mrs. Grey. Not in any instance at all '( How about the arrest of
Enos Light ?
Mr. Scott. Enos Light killed some cattle belong to his Avife, but
he has never been prosecuted.
Mrs. Grey. He has never been prosecuted?
Mr. Scott. No.
Mrs. Grey. Did he never pay a fine?
Mr. Scott. Not to my knoAvledge.
Mrs. Grey. You never heard anything about it?
Mr. Scott. No, sir.
Mrs. Grey, You were not present at the council, then, when you
were presiding?
Senator Lane. When Avho presided?
Mrs. Grey, The matter Avas brought up in the council.
Senator Lane. Just information is Avhat Ave are after. We are not
here to settle any dilficulties betAveen you tAvo.
Mrs. G;iEY. I have not mentioned — he said that there had been
no
Senator Toavnsend, This strikes me as A^ery unusual proceeding,
Mr. Chairman.
Senator Lane, In what way?
Senator Toavnsend, I want Mrs. Grey to ask questions on any-
thing that informs us. I Avould protect Mrs. Grey as I Avould any-
body else, but I Avant to get at the facts in reference to tliis stfvk.
For instance, if it is true that this stock is handled in connection
with the "Beef Trust," I Avant to knoAV tliat— those facts, or any-
thing else that Mrs. Grey has; but Ave have not time to go into any
contests here over any matters of personal dilFerence.
Mrs. Grey, There "have been no matters of personal di (Terence.
Senator Lanvi. In fairness to all, Avithout prejudice, I Avant Mrs.
Grey and Mr, Scott to understand that the commission does not
want anybody to indulire in personalities,
Mr. Scott." I Avould like to go on record as asking this commission
to investigate fully the connection, if any, betAveen the stockmen
and the purchasei-s of the cattle.
Senator Toavnsend. That is one thing Ave are after, Mv. Scolt;
and Mrs, Grey has some ideas in reference to the matter, and wo
M^anted— I assume that is Avhat the commission had in mind— that
1926 CKOW INDIAN KESERVATION.
she would ask those questions ratlier than to write them out and
have us ask them over again; and I woiikl like, and I am sure the
chairman would, to have Mr. Scott answer the questions, and I
would like to have Mrs. Grey ask just such questions as simply per-
tain to the facts and not necessarily pursue a method of cross-exam-
ining, as though we were tr^dng to convict somebody, when we are
not, any more than I permitted it when she was on the stand. I
want to get at the facts. Just ask questions in relation to anything
that will bring out the facts. If you have in your mind the idea
that the " Beef Trust," or anybody else, is interested in those ranges
and the cattle, let us ask the questions to apply directly to that sub-
ject, and any other subject that you have in mind.
Mrs. Grey. The reason I was asking that question was this: It is
admitted that the Indians have now practically no cattle. The In-
dians contend that the reason that they have no cattle is that the
lessees have branded their cattle and have overstocked the range.
Senator Town send. Ask questions on that and let us find out if
he knows anything about that.
Mrs. Grey. Suppose you ask him the questions. Senator Town-
send.
Senator Townsend. I thought we did, but I thought we could
hurry matters if we did not go into details.
Mrs. Grey. As long as they have prosecuted, they have never
convicted one single Indian of killing Heinrich's cattle, or killing
any of their own cattle.
Senator Townsend. He testified to that when he was being ex-
amined.
Mr. Scott. That is not quite correct.
Senator Townsend. That is what I understood joii to say, with
the exception of one, and that man was paroled.
Mrs. Grey. And that was a white man.
Mr. Scott, She refers to the killing of lessees' cattle.
Mrs. Grey. There is a rule when they arrest the Indians — they are
not allowed to kill their own cattle.
Senator Lane. Has there ever been any complaint made to you by
the Indians that the lessees have driven off any of their cattle?
Mr. Scott. No, sir; there was, as I said a while ago, two or three
complaints of misbranding of calves.
Senator Lane. Were they true or not — did you investigate them
to see?
Mr. Scott. Sir?
Senator Lane. Were they true — the complaints founded on facts
or not?
Mr. Scott. They were not true. I personally investigated one of
them two or three different times. Inspector Norris, you know, in-
vestigated that same case; Chief Live Stock Supervisor Goodall in-
vestigated the same case, and all came to the same conclusion, that
thei'e is nothing to it.
Mrs. Grey. Have you seen the steer that George Pease has now in
his corral at Lodge Grass?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Mrs. Grey. Is there any question but what that is his steer?
Mr. Scott. There is a very serious question.
CKOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1927
Senator Toavnsexd. Right there, voii did not quite finish in ref-
erence to this shipping bill. It is marked '' duplicate."' Assuniiui;
that that is a duplicate of a bill that is a true bill, \vhere did tho.se
cattle come from ?
Mr. Scott (examining paper). I would sav that they came from
Wyoming, from the ranges along the north portion of the State.
Senator ToAv^'SE^'D. That can be easily traced out, can it not, to
ascertain where those cattle came from?
Mr. Scott. It can, undoubtedly.
Senator Town send. You think that this Basin Cattle Co. has no
business on the reservation?
Mr. Scott. They have nothing whatever in there; their range is
down here [indicating on map] in Wyoming.
Mrs. Grey. Do you know who they are ? You said before you did
not know.
Mr. Scott. There is what they call the " Basin Co.," and I have no
doubt these people belong in there.
Senator Townsend. I repeat, there is no such cattle company on
the Crow Reservation out there?
INIr. Scott. There is not.
Senator Town send. Their cattle, therefore, must have been
shipped from outside?
JSIr. Scott. Yes.
Senator Tow^nsend. And we can trace that out to find out whethe!-
that is so or not?
Mr. Scott. Certainly. I can learn all about it, and can furnish
this information.
Senator Townsend. It seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that is a nuitte:-
we can veiy easily learn from the department. We can check it up
from that and tell what there is about it and ascertain something
about the truth or falsity of the statement.
Mrs. Grey. Now, about overstocking of the range. AVas the i-ange
overstocked — has it been?
Mr. Scott. No.
Mrs. Grey. Never? Is it true that the Indians have fewer cattk'
than they had, say, three years ago?
Mr. Scott. I imagine that they have some less than they had three
years ago. They buy a few^ occasionally, and kill and eat all the
time.
Mrs. Gref. When the ranges were really overstocked 3'ou did not
recommend — I have a letter here. Shall I put it in ?
Senator Lane. What is it about?
Mrs. Grey. I have a letter here written by W. W. Scott, superin-
tendent, to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, dated June 27, 1912.
Senator Lane. Very well.
Mrs. Grey. And it' is a part of "Indian Files 6G090— 1912; Crow
Agency, 321."
Senator Tow^nsend. Perhaps the quickest way would be to read
it, and then if w^e do not think it is proper we Avould not have to
print it.
Senator Lane. Just read the salient features of it.
Mrs. Grey (reading) :
It will be noted that the letter .•iceoiiiiiniiyiiiR the hid of Sjtenr Hros. Cnttle
Co. proposes to reduce the niiniimnn nunil)t>r of :inini:ils :ind incrensos (he rnte
per head. Thov stnt' that dnriiifj; the past two years their range has been
1928 CROW INDIAN BESEEVATION.
overstocked, although they did not actually cari-y the niininiuni number. This
stateuieut was made, as to number of head, at the time of their last semiannual
payment.
It is true that their range was overstocked last year, due to the shortage of
feed; another season the same number might not be too many.
That is signed " W. W. Scott." Now, was not district No. 6 cut
down for the same reason ?
Senator Town send. Is it stated in there that the lessee said they
did not have the minimum number?
Mrs. Grey. Yes. You will see by looking at the leases that they
are all much less now than they were at any time heretofore.
Senator Lane. What is your contention, Mrs. Grey?
Mrs. Grey. Why, that the range has been overstocked to such an
extent that now it is bringing in less than it has before; and, more
than that, that the Indians' cattle are dying on account of the range
being overstocked.
Senator Town- send. Wliat do you mean by "overstocked," ISIrs.
Grey ? Do you mean more than the contract called for or more than
they ought to put on it?
JNlrs. Grey. More than the contract called for and more than the
range would carry.
Senator Towissend. That letter does not quite state that?
Mrs. Gref. No.
Senator Town send. That letter states that less than the minimum
number? i
Mrs. Grey. Yes; here is what I am contending for: The range
would have carried more cattle than it does now, because it has been
overstocked and the range has been eaten off.
Senator Townsend. Then, that is due, is it not, to the fact that
the contract permitted too many cattle on there rather than a viola-
tion of the contract?
ISIrs. Grey. Well, from the contract — but I think the fact is that
there have been very, very many more cattle there than ever were
covered by the contract.
Senator Townsend. That letter does not say that.
Mr. Grey. It says it was overstocked.
Senator Townsend. Yes, because of the bad year; but it says that
the minimum number was not exceeded, if you Avill notice. So that,
if the idea you have in mind is that the laws had been violated, that
letter does not prove that.
Mrs. Grey. It proves that the range had been overstocked, though.
]Mr. Scott. Mr. Chairman, I protest against the utterly unwar-
ranted assertions of Mrs. Grey.
Senator Lane. I do not think you need to allow that to annoy you
iit all. That will all be weighed.
Ml-. Scott. I wish to call the attention of the commission to the
fact that she has absolutely no knowledge of the facts. She offers
no proof whatever in support of the assertions, while I, who have
been there right along and know the situation, submit that my word
is eiiiially as good as hers, and assure you positively that what she
says is not true.
Mrs. Grey. I was reading from your own letter, ^Ir. Scott.
Mr. ScoTT. My letter does not support the contention.
Senator Lane". This will all be sifted out. without prejudice; you
may be assured of that, so far as I am concerned.
CBOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1929
Mr. Scot'.
•OS.
-r. If there is anything I can put \ou in possessi
^ r r. t^^e.'l^f^al facts, I will be only too glad to do so.
Mi-s. GrREY. \Vho has district Xo. (Si
Mr. Scott. I think that lease Avas awarded to Spear Br.
Mrs. Grey. It is the old Dana lease, do you remember^
Mr. Scott. Heinrich and Spear, of course, trade together in a wa\
1 hey assist each other wherever they can. but not in the way to de-
fraud the Indians or to work any hardship on them whatever.
May I point out to the chairman the Xo. G range? I would like
to show you that.
Senator Lake. I would be very glad to see it.
Representative Stephens. Is there any fence between Heinrich
and Spear?
Mr. Scott. Xo, sir.
Senator Toavnsend. There is one thing I can not understand, Mr.
Scott, and that is, you say they work together, and they put the sheep
on wliere they have a contract for cattle. I can not understand wliy
3^ou have a hard and fast lease or permit, and then it means nothing-^
that is, you can change it over and put sheep on it oi- vou can'^let
another man come in with his stock, although you are jH-esumed to
prohibit that thing.
Mr. Scott. Let me say that the only case in which stock has been
grazed on another man's land is that"^of Mr. Simonson, who is run-
ning sheep on the range under hint. Here [indicating] is range
Xo. 6. It lies on the Little Horn River. It contains about 31,000
acres. Some part of that acreage is occupied by farms under that
ditch and along the creek. For purposes of permit that range is
estimated at 30,000 acres, and Mr. Heinrich submitted — I am a little
uncertain as to the details of the leasing of that. At any rate, they
are allowed to run from a minimum of l.oOO up to a maximum of
1,800 head of cattle on a per head basis of $2.35.
That range really belongs to Xo. 5. Thei-e is no reason why we
should have a little range down in here, and when this fence is
completed and the Ind'ans take possession of this part of the range
I want to include all of them in one. from the fact that this country
up in here is rough and during the winter is uninhabitable on
account of snow. So for a year-round range there is not enough
summer pasturage as it stands now.
Senator Tow^nsend. The chief reason you do not Icnow who occu-
pies Xo. 6 is because you do not carry it in your head, you nie.iu to
say?
Mr. Scott. We have a record of it. These leases wcic uiade souie-
thing over a year ago, and I have had no occasion to lecall the dot-.ils
since that time. When the payments are due we call on them and
require them to furnish an affidavit as to the number of cattle run.
the money is collected bv the cashier, and that is all there is to it.
Senator Townsend. Do you have any complicated joint leases
down there as to running on each other's leasehold?
Mr. Scott. Xo, sir.
Senator Townsend. Do vou have any trouble with Indians com-
plaining that the lessees are pasturing their cattle contrary to the
leases?
Mr. Scott. We sometimes have claims for hay destroyed.
Senator Townsenu. What do you do about them?
Mr. Scott. We adjust them as best we can.
1930 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Senator Townsend. How do you adjust the claims. Here Js an
Indian claims that Mr. Heinrich's cattle have destroyed his hay
Mr. Scott. In that case the farmer goes and makes a personal
investio-ation and reports to our office, and I call upon Mr. Heinrich
or Mr. Spear or whoever it is to pay the amount.
Senator Toavnsekd. And he usually does?
Mr. Scott. They do. Almost always the Indian will claim more
damage than is really coming to him, and it is the subject of adjust-
ment between the Indian and the lessee.
Senator Toavnsend. Does the farmer represent the Indian?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Senator Townseisd. So it is a matter of adjustment between the
farmer and the lessee?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir. It is to satisfy the Indian and get the lessee
to pay an amount that will satisfy him. When the hay is cut in the
fall the farmer goes and measures every stack and makes a record
of how much hay is in it. He makes a record of the character of
the fence surrounding it. That record is reported to the office, and
in the cases where he reports that the fence is insufficient, as it very
often is, we require the Indian, or notify him, to improve his fence.
In that way we have the complete record of the hay owned by the
Indians and have something on which to base our claim.
Senator Toavnsetsd. Go ahead, Mrs. Grey, and ask your questions,
and let us finish this up.
Mrs. Grey. Mr. Scott, what is the price that No. 6 is bringing
now; do vou recall?
Mr. Scott. No. 6?
Mrs. Grey. Yes.
Mr. Scott. No. 6 is estimated at 30.000 acres. It has to run 1,500
head of cattle, at $2.35 per head.
Mrs. Grey. What does that amount to?
Mr. Scott. Something over $3,000.
Mrs. Grey. $3,375, is it not? What did that range bring when it
Avas let the last time?
Mr. Scott. That range at one time brought $8,000.
Mrs. Gret. AVhat was the reason it was relet for only $3,000?
Mr, Scott. Because it was overestimated in the first place.
Mrs. Grey. It was let on a competitive bid when it was let at
$8,000?
Mr. Scott. Oh, yes; I presume it was; but that was before my
time.
Mrs. Grey. When it was let the second time for $3,000 was it let
on a competitive bid?
Mv. Scott. Yes.
Mrs. Grey. Who bid against Mr. Heinrich?
Mr. Scott. I do not remember.
Mrs. Grey. You are quite sure there was no other bid ?
Eeprescntative Stephens. I suggest that we went through this
matter before.
Senator Townsend. That part "was testified to before.
ISIrs. Grey. He said it was not overstocked and it was not let for
less.
Senator Tow^^sE^'I). The question was not asked him why it was
let f Dr $3,000 this time and for $8,000 before, but the fact that it was
CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1931
let for $8,000 and later on for $3,000, and tliat there were c-oinnetitive
bids, he testified to the other night. There is no use spending unv
time " ''
Mrs. Grfa'. Accepting that as the real situation on the reserva-
tion—that the Indians had no cattle; not that the Indians are eating
their cattle.
Senator Lane. What is 3^onr question now ^
Senator Townsend. The pertinent question was — if you are satis-
fied with your answer; it was not quite satisfactory to in'e: Mrs. dicv
asked you wl^at the prior lease price was, and you answered $m.(>()6,
and this time $3,000. and your statement was that it was ovei-Jet the
fifst time, but you did not go on and tell why and how tliey happened
to let it for $8,000 at one time and later on to let it for'$3,()()().
Mr. Scott. I do not know by what arrangement it was let for
$8,000. I was not there at the time, but I do know we were unal)le
to get anything like that when the matter came u]) for again gi-.mt-
ing the contract.
Mr. Townsend. Do you know of anybody that wonld take that
lease and pay more than $3,000 for it?
Mr. Scott. I do not. Wq had the lease to sell, ami athciti^rd
far and wide for bidders, and let it to the highest biddei-.
Senator Townsend. Do the Indians want that ranged
Mr. Scott. No, sir; they have no use for it.
Senator Tow^nsend. (to ahead. Mrs. Grey.
Mrs. Grey. We will leave the leases and take u]) some allotments.
Mr. Scott, have there been any allotments to Indians of the pul)lic
domain since you have been on the reservation?
Mr. Scott. No.
Mrs. Grey. Have you ever leased any Indians land that must liave
been made on the public domain?
Senator Lane. Has he done what?
Mrs. Grey. Leased any Indians allotments that nuist have lieeu
made on the public domain.
Mr. Scott. I do not know of any Crow that is allotted on the
public domain.
Mrs. Grey. I have here farming lease No. 239, on allotments Xos.
398 and 401, in favor of James B. Quest, for five years from Murch
1, 1913. The date the lease was made was December 9. 191i>.
Senator Lane. Do you assert that that is on i)uhlic .IcMuain. Mr-.
Grey?
Mrs. Grey. Yes.
Senator Lane. What would it amount to if he had '.
Mrs. (trey. These are the allotments of Lo(»ks-Back: Knox LooUs-
Back, son. ased 5 vears: Lucille LooUs-Piack. a daughter, aL'c'l^ 8
years; Eugenia Looks-Back, a daughter, died July <',. 190:.. 'Phe
justification for the lease is that the lessors are unable to work this
land by reason of its being on the ceded strip some 2.) mile^ from
their home. i r i i
Mr. Scott. If it is on the ceded strip, it can not be (.ii public hm.l.
Mrs. Grey. When was the ceded strip opened ?
Mr. Scott. I do not remember.
Mrs. Grey. You know what act it was?
Mr. Scott. T said I did not remember. . . \\
Mrs. Grey. The ceded strip was taken in 1901. Is that a fa-t, Mr.
Scott? Could it have been any other tune?
1932 CROW INDIAN EESEKVATION.
Senator Lane. He said he did not remember.
Mrs. Grey. It could not.
Senator Toavnsend. Is this land located on that ceded strip?
Mrs. Grey. These are the allotments of four children who were
allotted from the ceded strip after the ceded strip was opened to
settlement, and they could not possibly be legal allotments unless
they were allotted under the public-domain act. It would be im-
possible that they could be otherwise.
Senator Toavnsend. Supposing they are located there; what would
you say about that, assuming that is true?
]\Irs. Grey. Well, here is the lease; it is Mr. Scott's own lease.
The allotment is illegal.
jMr. Scott. There have been no allotments since I went onto the
Crow reservation. I know there are a number of allotments on
the ceded strip, or in the ceded portion of Avhat was formerly the
Crow Reservation, but those allotments were all made before I went
there, and there has never been a question raised as to their lega iity,
so far as I know.
Senator Lane. Why, Mr. Scott, would it be illegal for you to lease
allotments on a ceded strip?
Mrs. Grey. That is not the idea. The idea is this. Here is the
deed made by Mr. Scott
Senator Lane. I know; but briefly, what is it?
Mrs. Grey. These allotments are illegal ; they could not exist.
Senator Lane. Who made them?
Mrs. Grey. They were leased by Mr. Scott. The minute I saw it
1 knew' they could not be legal.
Mr. Scott. We also collected some damages for
Mrs. Grey. They were all after the act of 1904.
Mr. Scott (continuing). For a ditch that w^as run through these
allotments.
Senator Lane. You do not claim that Mr. Scott made these allot-
ments ?
]Mrs. Grey. He made the leases, and I do not see how he could
help seeing
Senator Lane. If there are illegal allotments there that were made
contrary to the law — which I knoAV nothing about — what do you
know of it?
Mr. Scott. There are no illegal allotments, to my knowledge, any-
where on the Crow- Reservation or to Crow Indians. I have never
heard the legality of any Crow allotment questioned.
Senator Lane. Is there any illegal allotment to white people?
Mr. Scott. There have been some allotments to white people.
No — yes; there have been some allotments to white people who Avere
adopted members of the tribe. That was before I was connected
with the reservation.
Senator Lane. W^ould they be justly entitled to that under the
act?
Mr. Scott. Under the rulings of the department they are entitled
to them.
Mrs. Grey. These children are entitled to allotments.
Senator Lane. You are governed by the rules of the department
in that respect?
INFr. Scott. Certainly.
CROW ^^•UIA^■ hesehvation. I933
Mrs. Gket. These ehildien are all entitled to aliotinenls, but not
there.
Senator Town SEND. Are these people livino; on their allotments
on this strip «
Mrs. Grey. Xo, sir.
Senator Townsend. They are not livin<r there at all ^
Mrs. Grey. No, sir.
Senator Townsend. Where are they livin"-^
Mrs. Grey. They are farther down.
Senator Townsend. They have allotments somewhei*- dsef
Mrs. Grey. Not these children ; no.
Senator Townsend. I am talkino: abont these children. Do thev
have any other allotments than those (m this strip?
Mrs. Grey. I do not know. I ha\e never seen the allotment books,
but the Indians complain that favoied Indians like those ha\e as
much as 500 acres allotted to them. But the point I was makinjr was
that on these allotments are to three children allotted on the ceded
strip. The strip was o])ened to settlement before anv of these chil-
dren were born, and under the act they could not possibly be allotted
there.
Mr. Scott. I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that Mrs. (irev be re-
quired to furnish the dates of those allotments, as a matter of record.
Mrs. Grey. Mr. Scott knows I am not permitted to see any of
these records. He would not let me see any when I was out there.
Senator Lane. Where are these records?
Mrs. Grey. Some here and some at the Indian Office. But here is
the record itself
Senator Towksend. That is a matter Ave can find out about.
Mrs. Grey. Senator Townsend, don't you see what I mean there?
Senator Townsend. 1 see very clearly. That is a matter of proof:
it can be substantiated.
Mrs. Grey. Here is the proof right here; this is a part of the
lease. Don't you see, this child Avas born in 1905 and died in 1005.
The land was opened in 1904, and she was allotted after 1905.
Senator Toavnsend. You have here an affidavit of heirship. All
this paper shows is who were the heirs of Lillian Looks-Back. That
is what this affidavit of heirship is for.
Mrs. Grey. "For the minor children, Knox Looks-Back, Lucille
Looks-Back" — don't you see?
Senator Townsend. Well, now, what proof have you that thoso
allotments mentioned in this paper are not on land which could
properly be allotted to the Indians?
Mrs. Grey. In the lease that is made here the justification is that
the lessors are unable to work this land by reason of its being on the
ceded strip and for the reason that Knox Looks-Back is aged 0 and
Lucille Looks-Back is aged 9. The date of this is 191i.'. Now, from
1904 to 1912 would make every one of these children born after the
act of 1904. .
Senator Townsend. Now. let me see if I can get this straight.
This is a letter signed " W. W. Scott, superintendent. Crow Rest^rva-
tioii."
Mrs. Grey. If you will begin at the back, you get at it more regu-
larly.
1934 CROW INDIAN EESEKVATION.
Senator Townsend. I am talking about this letter. [After exam-
ining papers.] You go ahead, Mrs. Grey, and I will look at this —
and I will look at this and get it straightened out.
Mrs. Grey. I will tell you one thing, Senator Townsend. The
act which Avas passed in 1004 took everything exce])t the allotted land
and provided that the future allotments should be made on the
diminished reservation. Now, the Indians who were living on the
ceded reservation were permitted to keep their land, but of course
they could not allot their children born after that act, except under
the act to allot them on the public domain.
Senator Lane. And you say this has caused complaint?
Mrs. Grey. Oh, the Indians complain bitterly of it.
Senator Lane. Are there many cases of it in your country?
Mrs. Grey. Very many; yes, sir; I think.
Senator Lane. And the}^ complain?
Mrs. Grey. This is the petition that is sent. You see how many
names are signed. It is a universal complaint that the children of
the Indians are not allotted, excepting those who are favored, who
will leave their lands to people like Mr. Quest
Mr. Scott. That has no more foundation than
Mrs. Grey. I object to Mr. Scott making those statements. If I
am not permitted to do so, I do not think he should be permitted to.
Senator Townsekd. It is better to state what the facts are without
characterizing what anybody else is saying. The commission wants
to get at the facts and does not care about anything else.
Mr. Scott. I want to say there is no law in eifect now at all under
which Crows can be allotted ; that in lieu of allotments we are now
allowing the parents to make selections, which acts merely to segre-
gate the land against the time when an allotting agent will be sent,
when provision will be made for allotting this land, and these selec-
tions will then ripen into allotments. There has been no case in
which an Indian has been hampered in any way whatever as to his
selection. He is allowed to select wherever he will, and is given all
the assistance that can be rendered him to make his selection.
Senator Lane. Go ahead, Mrs. Grey.
Mrs. Grey. You say there is no law — now, I will not ask this as a
question. I think every appropriation bill carriers a large ai)pro-
priation for making allotments on reservations "VThere allotmentts
are to be made each year, and they were directed to go ahead, and
the reason they will not make them on the Crow. I think vou will
find, is right here in a letter I have which was written by ISIr. Scott.
I got this at the agency when I was there.
Senator Lane. What date is it?
Mrs. Grky. It is No. 6682, August 28, 1912. You see here it is
marked, "A true copy. H. H. Harris." Mr. Harris was there with
me.
Senator Lane. Read the letter, please.
Mrs. Grkv. It is dated "Crow Agency. Mont., Au<mst 28, 1912.
Commissioner of Indians Affairs, Washington, D. C. Sii'."
This is the crux :
Also tliat. tlicro is no stntiiloiy provision for further allotnient of ImikIs to
them. I j)resuni(> they iiiten<leil to ask tliat the onactinent of leiiislation pro-
viding for sucli allotments l)(> secureil.
CKOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1935
When we wore having this council lie stated, as the c(,uncil nuiuites
will show, that they could not ask for this legislation without takin«'
up the matter of opening the rest of the reservation. *"
Senator Lane. Do you mean to say thev are holding up the allot-
ments until the Indians will agree to open^
Mrs. Grey. Unquestionably.
Senator Lane, that is what the Indians complain of?
Mrs. Grey. You see their petition
Senator Lane. I had forgotten it.
Mrs. Grey. Now, Mr. Scott, you say you have made no allotments
to those who were adopted since you were there? When was Kmma
Record allotted?
JNIr. Scott. I do not know. What I meant was that there had heen
no allotments made de novo. There have been some cases in which it
was determined by the office that certain persons were entitled to the
allotment and were a-jthorized to make the allotment.
Mrs. Grey. A very large number of those, are there not '.
Senator Toavnsend. On the ceded strip?
Mr. Scott. No, sir; that would be on the diminished resei-ve.
Mrs. Grey. There is a large number, is there net, Mr. Scott?
Mr. Scott. No ; I think not. There is not a large number ; there
is a small number.
Mrs. Grey. Emma Record is one of them?
Mr. Scott. p]mma Record is one of a batch of 17 adoptions by the
tribe.
Mrs. Grey. Listen to this: this is exceedingly im[)ortant.
Mr. Scott. I do not remember when she was allotted.
Mrs. Grey. She is not a Crow Indian ?
Mr. Scott. She 'has some Crow blood, I think. I do not know how
much.
]\Irs. Grey. You are not sure of that, however?
Mr. Scott. No.
Mrs. Grey. Isn't she a Crow Indian?
Mr. Scott. I think not.
Mrs. Grey. She is married to a Dr. Lieurance at the present time,
is she not?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Mrs. Grey. You assigned her a very tine allotment, did you not?
Mr. Scott. I had nothing to do with the selection of the allotment.
Mrs. Grey. AYell, you approved the allotment?
Mr. Scott. No; I w^ould not have that authority. I do not re-
member anything about that particular case. I know that she has
an allotment out in the Wolf Mountains— no: I will take that back.
Mrs. Grey. She has an allotment in the AVolf Moimtains. It is
a verv valuable mineral allotment.
Mi\ Scott. There is a question up now about her allotment and the
allotment of her little boy.
Mrs. Grey. Is he an Indian?
Mr. Scott. My recollection of it is that the allotment has never b<«on
approved, and it is onlv quite recentiv that the (juostion as to whether
she was entitled to KiO acres or 3-20 acres came up. If she were the
head of a family at the time of her allotment she would he entitled
to 320 acres, or would have been : if not. to only IGO. 'I hat quest u.n
1936 CROW INDIAN RESEKVATIOX.
was referred to the Indian Office, and they advised us, if I remember
right, that she was entitled to allotment as the head of a family.
Senator La]s'e. Now. would that be the case if she was a Crow In-
dian?
Mr. Scott. If they are adopted by the tribe and the adoption is
approved, as in her case, by the Secretary of the Interior, it makes
no difference whether she is a Crow or what.
Mrs. Grey. Then she is not a Crow ?
Mr. Scott. I do not know.
Mrs. Grey. And her son is not a Crow ?
Mr. Scott. Her son is the son of a white man. My recollection is
that the woman herself claims to be of Crow blood.
Mrs. Grey. May we have those papers, Senator Lane — her allot-
ment and her son's allotment, from the Indian Office ?
Senator Lane. I suppose so.
Mrs. Grey. They must have been with the council proceedings.
The Indians complain that there are allotments of that kind to most
of their valuable land. They are illegal and improper.
Senator Lane. What is the value of this land?
Mrs. Grey. It is mineral land.
Senator Lane. What kind of mineral?
Mrs. Grey. There is probably some very fine mineral on the Crow
Rerservation, and this is one of those allotments.
Senator Lane. Do you know anything about that, Mr. Scott?
Mrs. Grey. They are in the Wolf Mountains, though, aren't they?
Mr. Scott. The selection is located in the Wolf Mountains. I
never heard that there is any valuable mineral in that locality.
Mrs. Grey. Do you know E. J. Booz, in Hardin?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Mrs. Grey. Has he a permit to prospect on the Crow Eeservation ?
Mr. Scott. Not to my knowledge.
Mrs. Grey. You know where his office is in Hardin?
Mr. Scott. Pie has no office in Hardin.
Mrs. Grey. He has, in Mr. Hunter's office, hasn't he?
Mr. Scott. No; he is in my office.
Senator Lane. In whose office?
Mr. Scott. In our office at the agency.
Senator Lane. Who is this? •
Mrs. Grey. E. J. Booz. Has he been in your employ long?
Mr. Scott. About three months, I think.
Mrs. Grey. When I was out there he was not in your employ
regularl3^ He Avas helping to make out the record, wasn't he, and
acting as clerk to Mr. Hunter, in Hardin?
Mr. Scott. I don't know.
Mrs. Grey. You were in town there?
Senator Lane. He said he didn't know.
]\Irs. GnEY. The point I Avas making is that in the window of Mr.
Booz's ollice are some magnificent mineral specimens — galenite —
unquostionablv of very fine quality, and the land lies in tlie Wolf
Mountains. That is one of the reasons the Indians object par-
ticularly to this fence [indicating on blue print]. The land is
mai-ked " unsurveyed," you see. It is, in fact, very fine, the finest
kind of mineral land, and many of these white allottees are allotted
to that mineral land.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1937
Mr. Scott. Will you name some of them?
Mrs. Grey. You said there were 17.
Mr. Scott. I did not say there \Yere 17 white.
Mrs. Grey. You said there were 17 adoptions at the time she was
adopted.
Mr. Scott. Yes; all of those, however, were not approved. Some
of them were rejected.
Mrs. Grey. There was a council proceeding went on there, wa.sn't
there? Were the council proceedings sent on here with thoM" 17
adoptions ?
Mr. Scott. I think so. That occurred before I went to the ("row
Reservation.
Mrs. Grey. Dr. Lieurence w^ent there after vou did didn't ho?
Mr. Scott. No.
Mrs. Grey. Mrs. Record is now the wife of Dr. Lieurence, isn't
she?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Mrs. Grey. Now, I have one more allotment. Mr. Scott, do you
knoAv of Indians being removed from their allotments forcibly and
those allotments given to somebody else ?
Mr. Scott. I do not.
Mrs. Grey. You never heard of such a thing?
Mr. Scott. I never did.
Mrs. Grey. I have here the allotment of Knows-His-Coos. Here is
the description. Now, on the present rolls one of these allotments —
this description here — was reallotted to Wrinkle Face.
Senator ToAv^'SE^:D. It had been a]lf)tted previously to whom; to
Knows-His-Coos ?
Mrs. Grey. Yes. Here it is; the southwest half of the southwest
quarter of section 28
Senator Toavnsend. Of township 8 south, range 35 east. Where
do you get the " east '' ?
Mrs. Grey. I get it from the map.
Senator Toavnsekd. I presume that is right.
Mrs. (4rey. Containing 320 acres, a^ou see. That land was reall<tteil
to Wrinkle Face, and it has his number on the present rolls, and this
land is now owned by Mr. Reynolds. This land was vacant. Mr.
Miller now has that.
Senator Townsend. Now, I can ask these questions to get what we
want in the record about that, and I think it will mean a little bit
more. That is one thing I wanted to ask you ^
Mrs. Grey. Just let me explain, before you begin. Senator Town-
send. There are probably 20 allotments exactly in the same condi-
tion as this one is, lying "near Wj'ola. It is a flat jiiece of land, and
it is on that land tliat they are now spending money for irrigatidu.
The Indians Avho are the "real members of the tribe are not getting
any irrioation; it is going on to this land.
Senator Townsend. And this land was originally allotted to the
Indians?
Mrs. Grey. To many Indians. I have only this one proof: but as
I rode along the reservation I saw the old fences— I saw two old
camps, and the Indians claim thev never gave that nwny.
Senator Towxsend. Now, Mr. Scott, it w.as charged here at the
hearings last year of the Indian Connnittee that land luul been al-
1938 CBOW INDIAN KESEKVATION.
lotted to certain Crow Indians years back, and that afterwards that
hind was in some way taken from the Indians and reallotted to other
people, and that it finally found its w^ay into the hands of white
owners. I can understand how it w^ould be possible for it to get into
the hands of white OAvners, but what I can not understand is this, and
I would like for you to explain it
Mr. Scott. I should like to inquire of Mrs. Grey the names of the
white owners, so that I can locate the land.
Senator Town send. We have a description here of a piece of land
which Avill describe it better.
Mr. Scott. I would not know it by description so well as by the
name.
Mrs. Grey. You know where Mr. Eeynolds's house is ?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Mrs. Grey. Mr. Eeynolds's house is on one portion of this land.
Mr. Reynolds was agent at the time KnoAvs-His-Coos was forcibly
removed from this land. Mr. Miller was chief clerk, and Mr.
Throssel was, and still is, employed in the office. All the land now
in this one belongs to those three men and their families, and no
Indian there is getting any irrigation at all. It stops exactly on
Stick's land. Of course. Miller and Thrcssel have since been
adopted, but it has never been settled, and the Indians protest, and
there is no council proceeding to show they were properly adopted.
Senator Tow^nsekd. She says that one of these allotments is now
occupied by Mr. Eeynolds; his house is on part of the land.
Mr. Scott. That matter all took place before I went there. I,
sometime after going to the agency, requested the Indian Office to
send an inspector to go into the matter fully and determine whether
there had been frauds, as somebody had charged, in connection with
the adoption. They declined to do that, on the ground that if any-
one claimed fraud they were at liberty to initiate the action, but that
the office would not on its ow^n motion investigate the matter to de-
termine whether an action that they had taken was tainted with
fraud.
Senator Townsend. That is, the guardian of these incompetent
people out there was not willing to show up wdiether they had
made a mistake or had done Avrong or not?
Mr. ScoTT. They assumed that if anyone made the claim it was
up to them to submit the proof.
Senator Townsend. If some ignorant Indian had been perhaps
defrauded by his claim, the great big Government of the United
States says : " You have got to show us before we will proceed to
inquire into the matter"?
Senator Lane. That is it.
Mr. Scott. I will just give you the facts, Senator.
Senator Toavnsend. I am not questioning your facts.
Mr. Scott. As to Knows-His-Coos, I do not know anything about
his having been put off his land. I know the Indian, and he has
never said anything to me about it.
Senator Townsend. Now, is it possible for an Indian to be allotted
a piece of land, and then that land afterwards legally allotted to
some other Indian?
Mr. Scott. I should say not, certainly.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1939
Senator Townsexd. How couUl it 1k' iUmv ( What is tuc rir-
cumlocution that would be followed, in voiir mind, if that is- a fact?
Siippcse Knows-His-Coos had thi> land all. itcd and wanted it al-
lotted to somebody else. How eonld it he done le<rallv (
Mr. Scott. In case the aUotment were ineirallv niade in the first
place, when the roll is approved, natin-allv the "work eonld not he
undone. I want to sugge-t that it would" be well to get the facts
from some rehable source, from the records, or to call on some on6
wdio was familiar with the facts at the time, as I was not.
Senator Lane. AYould the records necessarilv show?
Mr. Scott. Unquestionably they would sliow. If a grant has
been made and later on had been cancelled, certainly the record
would show it.
Senator Towksend. What ought to be done with this statement is
to find the history of that particular piece of land.
]Mrs. Grey. Now. I have the record of the inspector who made the
inspection that Mr. Scott is speaking of. That was Inspector Norris,
was it not ?
Mr. Scott. I do not know whether Mr. Norris investigated that
matter or not.
Mrs. Grey. This is his report
Senator Townsend. You did not get through, ^Ir. Scott. I wanted
to know- whether there was anything further on this subject. That is
a very interesting subject to me. If it is true that Indians have been
allotted lands, and then the lands were wanted b}^ somebody else
because they were valuable, and the Indians have relocated some-
where else, and that land allotted to a favorite — assuming that that
is so, I want to know how it could happen, and why.
Mr. Scott. As I say. I have no personal knowledge of the case at
all ; and net knowing the facts, I can not say.
Senator Toavnsend. Have you ever had any experience with any
similar cases?
Mr. Scott. I never have; no, sir.
Senator Townsend. Then, of course, you would not know.
Mrs. Grey. I will say, Senator Townsend, that there are hundreds
of just such claims.
Senator Townsend. The way to find those is to get the case and let
this man or somebody else get the record of the case. We will know
who had it in the first place, how it happened to be allotted again to
somebody else, and then it is up to the department to make an expla-
nation.
Mrs. Grey. There you have that special piece of land that Key-
nolds has now, allotted to Knows-His-Coos. There must be some
record of that transfer.
Senator Lane. That is what the Senator says. What else do yon
wish to ask? ,• *
Mrs. Grey. Mr. Norris reported in reference to that, readmg fmm
his report, "As to the so-called Miller and Throssel adoption and
allotments, I find that you would be justified in ordermg si)ecial
investigations in all matters relating thereto."
Senator Lane. Who does he address that to?
Mrs. Grey. The Secretary of the Interior.
Senator Lane. Of what date is that letter?
35601— PT 1 5—14 9
1940 CROW INDIAN KESERVATION.
Mrs. Grey. October 12, 1912. I will read another from the same.
Shall I give the history of this, so as to connect it up ?
Senator Lane. Now, Mrs. Grey, are you going to give us testimony
of your own ?
Mrs. Grey. No ; I want to ask Mr. Scott.
Senator Lane. That is all right, then. But I wanted to say that
if we are going to examine Mr. Scott, we ought to confine ourselves
to the matters with which he is familiar. If you are going to testify,
we ought to have that separate. I would like to confine this exami-
nation to matters that Mr. Scott knoAvs about.
Mrs. Grey. In reference to this piece of land that Reynolds is on,
that land is now under the ditch, is it not? The new ditch where they
are spending the money at the present time, where Mr. Reed is
working ?
Mr. Scott. We are not doing any work on that ditch at the present
time.
Mrs. Grey. You were last summer. You were in September.
Mr. Scott. My recollection is that the Reynolds land is not under
the ditch.
Mrs. Grey. You have been over that. You ride along, and here
vou see the flume coming down, and then it stops just there; and
here is Stick's place right next. It is the only piece of cement work
on the reservation.
■ Senator Lane. Do you remember about the cement work on that
ditch?
Mr. Scott. We have a ditch there that is partially completed.
Senator Lane. Were you working on it last summer?
Mr. Scott. I was out there during last summer. We had some
little work there in the summer, but not a great deal.
Mrs. Grey. May we have the expenditures there? It is the finest
piece of work
Senator Lane. Two can not testify at once, Mrs. Grey.
ISIrs. Grey. The finest piece of work that e\ev went on the reser-
vation.
Mr, Scott. Our work was confined to a ditch lower down where
we lost a dam last year by pressure. Anyway, we did very little
but repair work last year.
Senator Toavnsend. Was that irrigation plant put in for the ben-
efit of the Indians?
Mr. Scott. Yes, sir.
Mrs. Grey. Can you name an Indian who is getting water un-
der it?
Mr. Scott. I do not know the Indians under that ditch well.
Mrs. Grey. You can not recall one Indian that is getting water
•under that ditch ?
Senator Lane. Are any white people getting water from it?
Mr. Scott. There is some land under that ditch that has been sold,
but I do not recall now to whom.
Senator Lane. Are they getting water from that ditch?
Mr. Scott. Anyone is getting water who has land under the ditch.
Senator Lane. But you do not recall any
Mr. Scott. I do not recall the names of the people.
Senator Lane. There are Indians there getting water?
Mr. Scott. Oh, certainly.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1941
Mrs. Grey. There are Indians getting water?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Mrs. Grey. But yon can not remember the names of any of them?
Senator Lane. That is what he said.
Mr. Scott. We have quite a huge numl)er of ditches.
Senator Lane. How many Indians are there on the n'servationf
Mr. Scott, About 1,725 or 1,730.
Senator Lane. How many families, sav?
Mr. Scott. Probably between 500 and GOO. That is just a "-iiess.
Senator Lane. How long have voii been there? *'
Mr. Scott. I went there July l", 1910.
Senator Lane. Don't you know the names of all these families'
Mr. Scott. Of all the Indians? No, sir; I do not. I know thorn
in a way. If you would give the name of anv Indian on the reserva-
tion I could probably tell you whether that Indian is on the allot-
ment roll, but I can not recall their peculiar names, as you dis-
covered. "While I am reasonably familiar with the Indians them-
selves, I can not recall their names.
Senator Lane. You ride up and down those irrigation ditches
and notice what is going on every season, do you?
]\Ir. Scott. Oh, yes.
Senator Lane. And do you know that Indians are getting water?
Mr. Scott. I do know that every one under there, as far as the
ditch has been completed, is getting water. Last year we did some
rush work in there in order that some Indians might get water
under that ditch.
Mrs. Gkey. The ditch at Reno — is that a completed project or is
it a projected project?
JSIr. Scott. It is a completed project.
IVIrs. Grey. On the map it is marked a projected project.
Mr. Scott. There was some talk of building a ditch higher up.
The matter was referred to the Indian Office, and they advised that
when the Indians had shown a disposition to cultivate the land under
the lower ditch they could consider the other project, but up to this
time there has been nothing done on the upper ditch.
Mrs. Grey. Which do you mean by the upper ditch?
Mr. Scott. The ditch that is projected.
Mrs. Grey. Under the Eeno ditch— are the Indians getting any
water nnder that ditch?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Mrs. Grey. Do you Imow of a sluiceway that was built there where
you go on Frank Shane's allotment?
!Mr. Scott. I do not remember.
l^Irs. Grey. You know where Lee Simonson's house is?
]\Tr. Scott. Yes.
Mrs. Grey. He is getting water from that ditch?
Mr. Scott. He is under the ditch.
Mrs. Grey. Wlien you stand at his house and look right down into
the field— it is 500 feet awav, this sluiceway. It is a new plank
structure. It cost $29,000, did it not? Haven't you ever seen it ?
Mr. Scott. I do not know the structure to which you refer nt all
I will say to the committee that while T have general oversiglit of
the construction work, we have an engineer of irrigation wlio has
the immediate charge of the work.
Mrs. Grey. Then you do not loiow
1942 CROW INDIAN EESERVATION.
Mr. Scott. I do not remember what any of the hundreds of struc-
tures over the reservation cost.
Senator Lane. Don't you keep a pretty close tab on that?
Mr. Scott. I do; yes, sir. But I am satisfied Mrs. Grey is mistaken
as to the cost of the structure to which she refers. There is no struc-
ture of that magnitude in that locality.
Mrs. Grey. There is a structure there, isn't there ?
Mr. Scott. There are numerous small structures.
Mrs. Gkey. This structure I refer to is intended to take the water
out of the canal and throw it back so it can not go on the Indians'
land. And is not Mr. Simonson trying to buy all that land as dry
land, when in fact it is irrigated?
Mr. Scott. Oh, no.
Mrs. Gkey. And is he not leasing all of that — occupying it ?
Mr. Scott. He has one lease down there.
Senator Lane. How large a lease is that?
Mr. Scott. He is leasing some land from an Indian known as
The-Other-Medicine.
Mrs. Grey. Are net all the family lands in there ?
Mr. Scott. I do net know how much land he has leased. This
man Other-Medicine has quite a large family, and all are allotted
Mrs. Grey. And he is occupying nearly all of it — I think all of it.
Mr. Scott. We require each Indian to kee]3 for his own use at
lease 40 acres of land on which the home place is located.
Mrs. Grey. I think the records would show that there is a head
gate there.
Senator Lane. If it cost $29,000, it would be a considerable struc-
ture?
Mrs. Grey. It is very considerable of a structure.
Mr. Scott. There is no structure of that character down there
at all.
Senator Lane. A plain difference of opinion.
Mrs. Grey. If you would go to the reservation, you could see it.
You could not stand in the door of Mr. Simonson's house and not
see it. I will read from the report of Inspector Norris, made Octo-
ber 25, 1912. This says:
As to section 13. wlierein it is charged that the Indian herds are not prop-
erly cared for, and that there is no sufficient supervision of the gathering,
branding, and shipping of cattle; that there is no proper inspection or report
of the number of cattle and sheep grazed on the range, and no proper insi)ectiou
of general conditions on the range, I find, after careful consideration, that said
complaints are true.
Who would make that inspection of the cattle and keep the num-
ber of the sheep and cattle grazed, Mr. Scott? What official of the
reservation ?
Mr. Scott. That matter, gentlemen, was gone into very thor-
oughly the other night.
Senator Lane. Yes; he answered that the other night.
Mrs. Grey. You remember that Senator Robinson asked me a
cniestion, and he said he Avould like to have the record to put in.
This is the record to which he referred :
As to section 17 * * * I find that said Campbell is guilty of dealing in
horses with Indians; that said Campbell is guilty of using intoxicatiug licpiors
on the reservation; and that said use has to some extent destroyed the confi-
dence of the people. * * * In view of all the surrounding circumstances,
I recommend such clemency as may be consistent with good service.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1943
He is still on the reserve, isn't he?
Mr. Scott. Yes ; he is still there.
Senator Lane. Have you read this rejiort befoie^
Mr. Scott, No, sir.
Senator Lane. Did you have any information in re-rard to this?
Mr. Scott. Certain portions of it were referred to our ollice
Mrs Grey, lou were not directed to reor-rauize vour inspection
after this?
Mr. Scott. No. As I stated to the couimittee the other ui'rht we
have been gradually improving our svsteui of inspection alul'the
handling of stock, and while there might have been and was duriijT
the first year or two of my administration same ground for criticisnf,
that condition has gradually been improved, and I feel now that we
have it in vei\y good shape.
Mrs. Gref. Mr. Campbell still has charge of it, hasn't he<
Mr. Scott. Mr. Campbell has his duties, as he alwavs had; yes.
Senator Lane, The same as before?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Mrs, Grey. Was he drunk at Lodge Grass with a woman called
"the fairy'' just a Aveek before you came away? Was not Mr.
Campbell picked up dead drunk?
Mr. Scott. No ; he was not.
Mrs. Grey. Well, the woman was brought there, wasn't she, to the
agency ?
Mr. Scott, Not to my knowledge,
Mrs, Grey, Isn't there a scandal all over the reservation on account
of the doings of Campbell ?
Mr, Scott. No ; there is not.
Mrs, Grey, There unquestionably is. His appearance is that of a
dissolute drunkard.
Mr, Scott, That, gentlemen, is — -Mrs, (irey was cautioned a few
minutes ago.
Senator Lane, Mrs. Gre,y makes the statement that he is a drunk-
ard, and possibly with a little heat. It is also reported in there bv
somebod}^ b}^ the name of Norris that he is a drinking man. Such
reports have been made to the department, so it is possible tiiat the
man may drink
]Mr', Scott. I have known Mr. Cam])bell and have i)een thrown
with him many times — all the time, constantly. He is now living at
the agencj', and I see him verv frequently. I have never known him
to take a drink on the reservation of anything, I have never known
him to bring anything en the reservation, and I have never .seen iiim
in any degree under the influence of li(|uor. I know he is one of the
most "consx;ientious, energetic, hard-working mcTi that T ever saw in
that position.
Senator Townseno. How do you account for Mr. Norris's report?
Mr. Scott. Mr, Norris's report was l)a.sed on the evidence of an
Indian whom Campbell had arrested
Mrs, Grey, What for?
Mr, Scott (continuing). And who afterwards. I am inf<>rnu'd, told
Mr, Norris that he made his statements maliciously. That is all
hearsay, but so far as T know that wouhl .seem to account for it.
Senator Lane, What did he arrest the Indian for? Do you
remember ?
1944 CROW INDIAN EESEEVATION.
Mr. Scott. No; I do not. They frequently arrested that Indian
for drunkenness.
Mrs. Grey. That was Jim Carpenter, wasn't it ?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Mrs. Grey. Where did he get the whisky? Didn't Campbell give
him the whisky ?
Mr. Scott. No.
Mrs. Grey. He certainly did.
Mr. Scott. Campbell states under oath that he did not. That is
all that I know about it.
Mrs. Grey. Mr. Campbell is still in charge of the inspection of the
reservation
Senator Lane. He said so.
Mrs. Grey (continuing). And no change has been made since
Norris's report was made?
Senator Lane. He says he still remains there.
Mrs. Grey. And Mr. Schraeder is the same, isn't he? Mr.
Schraeder is still in charge?
Mr. Scott. Mr. Schraeder is a farmer of one of the districts.
Senator Town send. Have you ever taken any trouble to investi-
gate any of those charges that are made against Campbell?
Mr. Scott. I have made inquiries; yes, sir. I have never gone
into it by way of a hearing, because Mr. Norris went into the matter
thoroughly.
Senator Townsend. Do you know whj'^ Norris recommended that
leniency, as he uses the word, should be used in this man's case ?
Mr. Scott. I do not know, but I suppose it was because he recog-
nized him as a valuable employee.
The Chairman (Senator Robinson presiding). Is there anything
further? I want to have an executive session now. If there is not,
Mr. Scott, you may be excused.
(Thereupon, at 5.15 o'clock p. m., the committee proceeded to the
consideration of executive business.)
MARCH 17, 1914.
Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. 0.
The joint commission met in the committee room of the Senate
Committee on Indian Affairs at 12.30 o'clock p. m.
Present: Senators Lane (acting chairman) and Townsend, and
Representative Stephens.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN H. BOOZ, PAEKMAN, WYO.
(The witness was duly sworn by Senator Lane.)
Senator Lane. Now, Mr. BoozJ you are a cattleman, as I under-
stand it, and you have been located and doing business for a great
many years on and about the Crow Indian Reservation?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. That is in Montana ?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. I945
Senator Lane. We are trying, Mr. Booz, to ascertain the facts
only without prejudice to any one and in fairness to all, as t e v
exist on that reservation There have been a c.o(.d ,„anv comphun J,
and we want to find out what tlie real, true sTtuati.n is. Art vu a
sublessee on the Crow Reservation?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. You are a sublessee.
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. How loner have you run cattle on that v.iwn^t
Mr. Booz. Since 1902. *" '
Senator Lane. Have you been a sublessee all that tinier
Mr. Booz. No; for about four years. i
Senator Lane. For four years you have been a sublessee? :
Mr. Booz, Yes, sir. . ,
Senator Lane. From whom do you sublease?
Mr. Booz. From Frank Heinrich.
Senator Lane. Is his name Henry or Heinrich?
Mr. Booz. Heinrich.
Senator Lane, And they call him Henry?
Mr. Booz, Yes, sir. Did you want to see these letters to show
that I was a sublessee ?
Senator Lane, Yes; leave them here, and you can explain them to
me, Mr, Booz. Do you pay Mr. Heinrich more for the range of your
cattle than he pays the Government for the use of his?
Mr. Booz. I do not understand exactly
Senator Lane. Do you pay more per head?
Mr. Booz. I don't know exactly what he pays.
Senator Lane. What do you pay?
Mr. Booz. It is something between $3 and $4.
Senator Lane. As nearly as Ave can ascertain he pays about $2.25.
Do you pay something like that ?
Mr. Booz. No ; mine is between $3 and $4.
Senator Lane, How much do you have to pay for your cattle on
the forest reserve?
Mr. Booz. Seventy cents a head for the period of 110 days.
Senator Lane. Seventy cents a head for 110 days?
Mr. Booz. About that; sometimes they come off before (he 110
days.
Senator Lane. How does the range j^ou su))lease from Mr. Hein-
rich compare with the rest of the land on which Mr. Heinrich ranges
his cattle?
Mr. Booz. There is no comparison. His range is a year-round
range, and mine is just a winter range, used dui-ing the winter.
Senator Lane, You pay that much per head just for the winter?
Mr, Booz, Just for the winter.
Senator Lane, For half the time?
Mr. Booz. Just about half the time.
Senator Lane. Wlien your cattle mix with Mr. Heinrich s and he
ships them, Avhat does he charge you? . , .., ^
Mr. Booz. He charges me $1.50 a head, till Mrs. Grey came out
and had a kind of meeting— I don't know what it was, but after that
he took off the $1.50 a head and did not charge me any more.
Mrs. Grey. He means $4.50.
1946
GROW INDIAN BESERVATION.
Mr. Booz. Three dollars and fifty cents a head. He charged me
$3.50 a head for shipping. He figured it so much for gathering them,
SO;much for the range, and it made $3.50, j^ou know. I have not got
one of his cards here with his shipping on it, but I can show you
here — well, I can show yon right here on the shipping bill.
Senator Lane. That is, when he collects, is it when you ship?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir; it is held out in Chicago. Here is some that
he shipped [producing shipping bills].
Senator Lane. Now, explain this to me. This is a bill
Mr. Booz. That is a shipping bill after Mrs. Grey came. Before
Mrs. Grey came there was an '' M Y " steer or cow, so many head of
them — there was $3.50 for shipping expenses and range expenses, but
as soon as she came they seemed to have a fear of her some way; I
don't know why ; I never found anything that what she done but was
fair and square — and they discontinued charging me for shipping the
cattle. Before that it was $3.50 for range, feed, and shipping.
Senator Lane. That was collected at the Union Stock Yards in
Chicago 'i
Mr. Booz. In Chicago, held out of my shipping.
Senator Lane. And you are a member of the Basin Cattle Co.?
Mr. Booz. Yes ; I am one of the oAvners of that.
Representative Stephens. Are 3'ou manager of the cattle company?
Mr. Booz. I am secretary and manager.
Senator Lane. We will put these on file.
(The papers referred to are as follows:)
[Rosenbauni Bi-o.s. & Co. (Inc. i, live stock cooiniission merchants, Chicago, Soutli Omaha,
Sioux Citv.]
Union Stock Yards,
Chicago, III., August 27, 1913.
Mr. .ToHN Booz. Parkman, Wyo.
Dear Sir : — Herewith account sale of 1 steer shipped by Doc Spear, proceeds
to Huntley Stnte Bank.
Yours, truly,
Rosb;nbaum Bros. & Co.
W.
I Rosciibauiii I'.ros. \ t'n. ilnc.i. livi- -itock coiumi^siou merchants. J
Union Stock Yards,
Chicago. Ill, August 25, 1913.
Sold for account of lUisin Cattle Co.
[Sale No. ."."(ii)!). Shipped b,\ 1 loc .Spear, from Benteen.]
Purchaser.
Cattle.
Weight.
Price.
Total.
ITammond
1 steer
PouTids.
Ctni".
6.95
5.82
. 25
.11
.07
.57
$79. 23
Hay
Com
6.82
72. 4L
1
Huntley State Bank, Huntley, Mont.
CROW INDIAN KESERVATION. ]<)47
I Koseubauiu Bros, i^: Vo ( Inc , n.-.. .....i- . .
>.v vu. Hill..). live ,tock ciunilssloii inerclmuiH. j
I'NioN Stock Yards,
iiold for account of Basin Cattle Co. ^'"'''"*"'' '"- «^''<<^""'<^'- ^«. ^OIS.
[Sale No. 3S:^,70. Shi,;ped by K. M. iiolnrich. from Wyola.)
Purchaser.
S. <C'S Co
Keller
Morria
Total (4).
Cattle.
1 steer..
? sicers.
1 heifer.
Weight.
Pounds.
l.'.'tfl
l.WH)
1,41.0
Prif«.
Crtit*.
7. SO
fl.HS
7. SO
Amount.
Charges— Freight (including reed on the road) . . »„ ..
Y:irlai;e «.'J..v>
Hay W] .[[['.'.'.'..'. '•**
Commis-sion ^
2. 1«
Net proceeds.
I"! <a
1G5 00
332.74
i7.n
305.09
Huntley State Bank. Iluntlcy, Mont.
Senator Lane. You have none of your old bills where this char*^
was made? ''
Mr. Booz. No, sir.
Senator Lane. Have you some at home?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir; I have some in the bank.
Senator Lane. Will you send us one?
Mr. Booz. If I can get hold of them.
Senator Lane. Why can you not get hold of them?
Mr. Booz. I have written for them several times, but could not get
them.
Senator Lane. You wrote for them several times?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. To whom?
Mr. Booz. To Snidow.
Senator Lane. Who is Snidow?
Mr. Booz. He is my partner. He never sent them to me. Ho
never said why.
Now, here is the returns. All my cattle returns has always been
sent to Huntle}'. You see here now it is sent to the Farmers &
Traders' Bank, of Billings. I could not understand that. Still
eA'er3^thing was all right. I never made any inquiries. His little
bank down there has alwa.ys been a mighty nice trade bank, and one
of my particular friends from Georgia was a manager in the bank.
In this, you see, they are less than there. Senator. I could not under-
stand that. I did not ask Snidow to explain.
Senator Lane. He managed this, then i
Mr. Booz. Yes; we both w-as in Chicago then.
Senator Lane. He is your partner?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Shall I put. that in?
Mr. Booz. Yes. sir.
1948
CEOW INDIAN EESEEVATION.
(The paper referred to is as follows:)
[Rosenbauin Bros. & Co. (Inc.), live-stock commission merchants.)
Union Stock Yards,
Chicago, III., September J, 191S.
Bold for account of Basin Cattle Co.
[Sale No. 378:58. Shipped by —
, from Aberdeen.)
Purchaser.
Cattle.
Weiffht.
Price.
Amount.
Armour
218 steers
20 s( ecrs
•I7'«teers
55 sieers
11 steer.s
5 steers
Pounds.
252,210
20, 730
53, 150
63. 950
13,540
5.751.
7,790
87,050
92, 980
3G.0(i0
19, 770
880
3,010
Cen/y.
8.00
/.SO
7.15
7.15
7.15
8.00
7.50
6.(i0
7.65
7.65
6.75
5.25
S'>0 17C.80
Do
1 554 75
S. & S Co
3' 800 '0
Do
4 57*^. 4*'
Armour
96S. 11
Do
4*^0 00
Law lor
5S4 -'5
Ciiflahy
88 steers
87 lieifers
.SSheilers
19 cows
5 745.30
Armour
7 IP. 97
Do
■\ 758. 59
B. <t S. Co
1,334.47
46. 20
Do
Btate Board
3 steers held...
1 steer dead
,543.94
148. 75
59. 40
2.80
304. 33
Total (595)
650, 900
$3
49 120.08
Charges —Freight (inoludine feed on the road)
Yardage ".
nny
Fire insurance (10 cents por car)
f:nmTnis<<inn
4,059.22
f-y.
45,960.86
120.00
45.180.86
4.50.00
44,730.86
Farmers & Traders Bank, Billings, Mont.
Senator Lane. How long ago was that charge made?
Mr. Booz. It was made this year.
Senator Lane. $3.50?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Did you have to pay that in addition to some usual
charges fcr commission men?
Mr. Booz. Oh, yes.
Senator Lane. You paid the commission men in addition to that?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir. Let me show you now
Senator Lane. That is really a fee for the use of the range, then?
Mr. Booz. Yes; and for taking the cattle to the range.
Senator Lane. Do you drive them there?
Mr. Booz. No ; the}^ drive them and do the shipping.
Senator Lane. Is that expensive work on their part?
Mr. Booz. Not if they would take care of the cattle all of the time.
You see, he runs up into the reservation that contains the forest re-
serve, and there is no fence between us, and the cattle go from the
forest reserve and get mixed with his, and his with mine.
Senator Lane. Don't you designate what cattle you want to go to
market?
Mr. Booz. No; we always ship whenever they are fat and matured.
It doesn't matter where thev are.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1949
Senator Lane. Does he take them?
Mr. Booz. Yes; he takes them. I am not theiv.
Senator Lane. He drives the cattle, then, oil a <;iveii raii^Tf. ami
selects such cattle as he thinks ought to go to nuirket?
Mr. Booz. On his range; everything that is on his range.
Senator Lane. He acts, then, as vour agent in that respect, does
he net?
Mr. Booz. I don't known whether he is an agent, hut that is the
custom of the country. When a steer or cow is mature we send it to
market. You can see here on these hills where it is so nuich for
feed, so much for shipping
Representative Stephens. The bills will show that l.»'tter than
anything else.
Senator Lane. Do you charge him for shipi)ing his strays?
Mr. Booz. No; I never have.
Senator Lane. Why don't 3'^ou?
Mr. Booz. It is not customary for cow men to charge each other.
Senator Lane. Is that right, Mr. Stephens?
Representative Stephens. On the outside range, you know, tliev
have different rules. This is leased land, and the lease wo\dd de'-
termine as to wdiat should be done. This is a sublease, and 1 ])ie-
sume that there is some understanding between them there.
Senator Lane. Is there an understanding between you and him
that you shall charge him ?
Mr. Booz. None whatever. I brought down '23 of his big fat
cattle oil my range, and shipped them in August — the iiSth of Au-
gust. I shipped m}" cattle instead of shipping his. You see, he
sent me word to turn his cattle loose, that he W(;uld ship them later—
that he has grazing on the reservation that he had leased. I turned
loose 23 head of his that I brought from the mountains about 40
miles, and they go right back to my })lace over the uiounlains. .'5.") or
40 miles, and when I got back home the 23 head is back over there.
Why he would not allow me to ship his cattle when he was shipping
mine I could not understand.
Senator Lane. He has not the confidence in you that you h:ni' in
him apparently?
Mr. Booz. I don't know.
Representative Stephens. Did you ever ask him anything about it?
Mr. Booz. I never did. I have not seen Frank neinri<-h for over
a year. A year ago last February I had a check book there, and I
said, " Let's settle up this lease and get it straight.' He .said. " Wait
until I see Snidow% and we will get together ami settl.;- it." Sni.jow
and Heinrich met in Billings and settled it— $ir),333 for about four
years, for the lease.
Senator Lane. When you shipped his cattle, to whom did he tell
you to have the payment made?
Mr. Booz. Well, this was Will Heinrich. His brother attended to
the shipping. He told me to send it to the bank at Omaha, the
Bostwick Bank. I have forgotten the name of the nnui. Init I told
the commission man to send the money to the baidc at Omaha.
Senator Lane. Do you understand that Mr. Bostwick has control
of these cattle? , , , ,, i u •
Mr. Booz. Well. Mr. Bostwick told me that he an.ll' rank Hein-
rich owned the outfit, and he says. " When you get rea.ly t.. sel v-ur
outfit give us a chance at it." That was three years ago hx^t .hilN.
1950 CROW INDIAN RESEKVATION.
Senator Lane. Is it your understanding that Mr. Bostwick con-
trols the entire range on the reserve'^
Mr. Booz. His mone}' does. I am confident of that — the biggest
part of it. We don't do business with Bostwick; still he has tried
me several times to lend me money. I thanked him and told him
that I did not need it.
Senator Lane. Who is Mr. Bostwick?
Mr. Booz. He is a banker. He is interested there in Omaha in a
big business there, a packing outfit. The bank belongs to a packing
outfit.
Senator Lane. Is it your impression, from your experience there,
that this cattle ranging and the leasing system and the management
of affairs in that connection on that reserve is controlled by Omaha
and other packers? I mean, your impression?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. That is vour opinion?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir; because Bostwick is as strong a man as there
is in, the Omaha stockyards, and he told me in his bank that he and
Frank Heinrich would Avant this, what we call the " drj' corner "
over on the west side of the mountain. He told me that in Omaha
last September.
Senator Lane. That is, where you were?
Mr. Booz. Where I was — in his private office.
Senator Lane. I mean, is that where your range was?
Mr. Booz. Yes; the dry corner, between the Big Horn Mountains
and the Bighorn River. I Avent in his bank and told him I wanted
to see him on some private business, and I told him my corner over
there had not been settled for, and I wanted to fix it up. " AVell,"
he says, " me and Frank Heinrich want that range." " Well," I said,
" Mr. BostAvick, I Avill tell you what I Avill do. I will just Avrite to
the department and see if they won't lease me some of the allotments
OA-er on the other side of the mountain," and he says, " Don't you do
anything like that. You see Frank Heinrich and see if you can't fix
it up."
Senator Lane. What objection Avould he have to your leasing these
allotments on the other side? Would that interfere Avith his range?
Mr. Booz. Oh, in a way; something of that kind. I had some
rented from Mrs Peters and her family.
Senator Lane. Are they Indians?
Mr. Booz. Her husband is a white man. That has been eight years
ago this last winter, and they had it fenced, and ]Mr. Heinrich neA'er
bought the hay, so they leased it to me and I used it, and also been
using it since.
Senator I^ane. How many cattle Avould you keep in there, about?
Mr. Booz. I would not keep them in there but a little Avhile. I
feed out in Wyoming and keep them there six Aveeks or tAvo months,
and then take them over the mountain on the forest reserve. I bought
his hav last fall Avith the intention of feeding it this Avinter, and Mr.
Scott "notified me not to put any cattle there. I bought 123 tons of
hay from him.
Senator Lane. At how much a ton?
Mr. Booz. $G.
Senator Lane. What kind of hay was it?
CROW INDIAN RESEBVATION. I95I
Mr. Booz. Wild hay.
Senator Lane. In the stack «
the lull length and feed on both sides
sik^seT Who ^r^They'"" " "" """^ °* "'^ «™ f-" «""- y-
Mr. Booz. Frank Heinrich is the man I lease from
benator J^axe. Have you a copv of the leased
Mr. Booz. No, sir; I wanted it; but I did not get it.
Senator Lane. 1 ou never got a lease? It is just verbal, is it?
Mr. Booz. No; it is just a kind of lease. I read it. Mr. Kcvnolds
drew It up. I said, - Tom, who drew this up?" and he sai'd Mr.
Iveynolds drew it up.
Senator Lane. Who is Tom?
Mr. Booz. Tom Snidow. It was just so nuicli luonev for so many
cattle for such a length of time. Our dry range is a couutrv tliat we
do not keep them on only in the winter season— fall and winter
Ihat was the way it figured up. You will see in this letter here what
we paid the last payment.
(Senator Lane read the letter referred to, which is, in full, as fol-
lows:)
IT. A. Suldow, nilliiiu's, Mont]
Billings, >roNT., Mtin-h 7, /.'»/!.
Mr. J. H. Booz, Parlcman, Wijo.
Dear John: Yonr letter of March 3 rec'eiveil jiiul :,iii sorrv to hoar of you
being in such bad shape. Charley Moore can look after the Basin for :i wliile
and you c:in leave a good man in your phice : t Shick. ami you 1i;m1 luMter «<» to
the springs and rest a while. I will try and come down the first of the week.
I am not one bit surprised at us not getting the Peter's p.isture. I h:ive
known for a long time that Helen Grey was going to get you in !)a(l. but you
would not listen to me. But for God's sake don't lay down. Keei> a stiDf
upper lip until I come down.
You ask me for a statement of the notes given liy the Itasin Cattle Co.:
I K. i\IcNutt, balance on hand. $7.3.33.33, due in October. 11)14. C per cent: n(»te
to J. P. Snidow, November 7. 1913. 6 moiitlis. at 8 per cent. .•v.'J.UOO, sigiio<l by
B;isin Cattle Co., b.v T. A. Snidow. president; note to J. P. Snidow. Jaini:iry 2,
3914, 6 month.s, at 10 per cent. $3,000, signed by Basin Cattle C ).. by T. A. .Sni-
dow. president. This note was given to J. P. Snidow to get money to pay your
checks that come in on .vour trip to Georgia ; alsj to pay checks given to Indians
and Mr. Peter for hay that come in while you were in Ge.irgia. Note to .\nieri-
ean National Bank. Helena, for $11,000. February 4, (i months. S per cent, signed
Basin Cattle C;).. by T. A. Snidow. president. This was given to get money to
settle back pay due Frank Heinrich on winter range. March 2 we liiid in tlie
Huntley Bank'$3,749.i'i9. and we hold about $2(lO(i worth of noies and niortkM;:o9
due the company, and as to the horse sale, I will bring the book down when I
come and you can look it over. I will be down as soon .is I can get awny.
I hojie you will be feeling better when you get this letter.
Yours, very truly,
T. .\. Sniihiw.
I will talk over the matter of your Bankers Loan & Mortgage .stock with -Mr.
Omara and see if he can handle it and let you have the money.
T. A. 8.
Representative Stephens. He is yom- partuer, is ho?
Mr. Booz. Yes. Now, he gave the check for $4,333, besides what is
there
1952 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Representative Stephens. What is that for?
Mr. Booz. That was for a lease of the Heinrich range.
Representative Stephens. And it is not mentioned here?
Mr. Booz. No; that was a check given separate. And I wrote to
him to bring the check down, and he must have had business that he
could not come down, but I never got the check.
Senator Lane. Now, he says in there that your friendship for
Mrs. Gray has got you in bad. Got 3^ou in bad with whom does
he mean?
Mr. Booz. With the Senators, I suppose. That is my business
down here. If I have done anything in the world that I am in bad
I would like to straighten it up, because I have always been trying
to be straight.
Senator Lane. Are you under the impression, and is he, that your
friendship for Mrs. Grey has got you in bad with the department
and the Government?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. And that on account of that you are liable to lose
your lease ?
Mr. Booz. I think so. You see, he says he w^as not surprised at
my not getting the lease; that he told me time and again
Senator Lane. What is your shipioing point?
Mr. Booz. Aberdeen.
Senator Lane. Where is Aberdeen?
Mr. Booz. It is just 5 miles from the Wyoming and Montana line,
on the reservation.
Senator La>.'e. Is there much shipping done there?
Mr. Booz. There has been quite a lot.
Senator Laise. Is it a known stopping place for trains?
Mr. Booz. Oh, yes; one of the first shipping points on the reser-
vation.
Senator Lane. And there are cattle pens there and driveways?
Mr. Booz. Yes. sir.
Senator Lane. Who else ships there?
Mr. Booz. Me and Heinrich and Spear — the whole outfit used to
ship there.
Senator Lane. Does the Government inspector for cattle come
down there and watch 3'^ou ship?
Mr. Booz. I have never seen the inspector or a sheriff since I have
been on the reservation with my cattle.
Senator Lane. You never saw him inspecting cattle?
Mr. Booz. Never saw him inspecting mine or anybody else's.
Senator Lane. Have you been around where you could see it your-
self, where you could see the shipping going on?
Mr. Booz. Oh, yes; I generally load the cattle myself — I help to
load them.
Senator Lane. AMien the agent was here he said he knew of no
shipments being made from Aberdeen. He did not know where
Aberdeen was. Now, I want to ask if any outside cattlemen drive
cattle to Aberdeen and ship from there?
Mr. I^ooz. They have for the last, say 12 or 15 years; yes, longer
than that — 17 or 18 years that I know of by my own experience, and
1 have been shipping there for 13 years, and all the men around ship
there. But now lately there has not been so much shipping done, but
still there is quite a little.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. J 953
Senator Lane. Could the RiQin (\^^t^r^ n
,ro. Aberdeen without th^uJ^^Teji^^
Mr. Booz. Oh. yes.
Senator Lane. How far is it from the a-encv*
Mr. Booz. About 30 or 35 miles, I suppose
yoS'l^.nget''''''" ^^'''' '^'' '""'P'''^' '''''^'''' '^'^ "t'^^'"" ^'^il'-'-nts on
Mr. Booz. No, sir.
wifh^ote'i-pe'o'pleP''" '" '^P-'--™" ^o nut know .„at ho does
Mr. Booz. No.
Senator Lane. When you ship cattle of a brand not vour o^^ ... ho^f
IS the return made ?
Mr. Booz. It is uiade like these. biHs. I ship ID cattle vou
Imow, and It is sent to Mr. Scott, but I don't know in what form
^ou see, when anybody ships one of ours, we -et a card notifvin- U3
that It IS shipped and by whom, and the feed is taken out and'the
weight ot the steer and the price and everything on the card Now
T belong to the stock association in AVvomin<r and Montana hut i
suppose the Indians don't. Whether the inspector would take tlie
same precaution to fix the Indians that way I don't know, but the
Indian money has always been sent to the agent.
Senator Lane. They could all be made the same way, could they I
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Has anyone else ever used the range vou now own,
and have Indians' cattle ever been lost there?
Mr. Booz. Yes. Mr. Sam Garvin had it when the 745 Indian cattle
was supposed to have been stolen and put over there bv tliem. They
served a term in the penitentiary — Mr. Garvin and Bob Lee— for
stealing the cattle.
Senator Lane. The Indians' cattle?
Mr. Booz. Yes. I think that Mi-. Morse used it a year i)rior to
the time I used it.
Senator Lane. Is there anybody else in that country subleasing
that you knoAv of?
Mr. Booz. Mr. Dana is still using the Herford pasture adjoining
the Wyoming line and also running down into the reservation ad-
joining his farm.
Senator Lane. That is reserved land, is it?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir; that is on the reser\ation.
Senator Lane. He would have to have a pei-mit, wouldn't he^
Mr. Booz. Mr. Willis Spear told me while he had it under control
he never charged for it. He said thei'e was quite a lot of aUotnientg
inside of this Herford pasture that Dana was using on tiie reserva-
tion, and I laughed and said, "That is something funny.'' lie said,
"AVell, that is what we ha^e done, but I don't know anything about
what Frank Heinrich is charging."
Senator Lane. They had a tribal herd there at one time?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir. I was with the herd at the time Mr. Watson
was agent, and it seems that he would receive the cattle, and (iiey
knew what he was doing, how many he had. and they counted the
cattle. That has been several years ago, and as near as I onn recol-
lect they branded around 4,000 calves that year, and counted out
1954 CKOW INDIAN EESERVATION.
about 13,000 head of cattle. That is as near as I can toll now. It
has been so long I may have forgotten.
Senator Lane. Was the tribal herd successful?
Mr. Booz. No, sir.
Senator Lane. Why?
Mr. Booz. There were seAeral reasons. They were thrown in with
the white men's cattle. Another thing, the range was overstocked,
and three years ago last fall I think the most of them died.
Senator Lane. Overstocked by Indians?
Mr. Booz. No; white men's cattle.
Senator Lane. On the Indian range?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Did they pay for the use of that range or not?
Mr. Booz. I don't know whether they did or not. I come over the
mountain in June, about the 5th of June, and I was not out of sight
of der.d cattle there for several miles. I crossed the reservation
where some had died, where they had them penned up in certain
quarters they kept for winter range.
Senator Lane. Was this land leased to anybody?
Mr. Booz. I could not say. Frank Heinrich was using it.
Senator Lane. Using it in connection with the Indians?
Mr. Booz. His cattle and the Indians' were both running — ^no;
this w^as a place where they did not allow any Indian cattle. He
held this for his own private use in the fall, for cattle that he was
going to winter and keep them where he could get them — the poor
cattle and the cows and calves.
Senator Lane. Were these dead cattle his cattle or the Indians'
cattle.
Mr. Booz. I could not say.
Senator Lane. You say the Indians had a herd there at one time,
but the range became overstocked. How did that happen?
Mr. Booz. Thev. had the ID range between the Bighorn and
the Burlington Ridge.
Senator Lane. That is what I wanted to find out. Were they over-
stocked with the Indians' cattle?
Mr. Booz. Other people's cattle.
Senator Lane. Did the Indians' cattle die, or the other people's
cattle ?
Mr. Booz. I think some of both ; they did not all die, but they had
quite a loss of both. Most everybody in the West had quite a loss.
Senator Lane. Was that calamity due to weather?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir — deep snows.
Senator Lane. Who brands the ID stock?
Mr. Booz. Well, we had a fellow — when I was with them three
years ago they had a fellow — Joe Martinez. The}^ rounded up and
branded a few ID's.
Senator Lane. Did the Indians brand them?
Mr. Booz. No, sir; some white men. They represented the Gov-
ernment.
Senator Lane. Does Heinrich brand your strays?
Mr. Booz. I never saAv him brand any.
Senator Lane. Will he permit you to brand his, or to keep a man
of your own with his wagon?
Mr. Booz. No, sir.
CEOW INDIAN KESEBVATION. 1955
Senator Lane. He does not permit .vou to keep a nmn witii his
wagon? '
Mr. Booz. He never has I sent a man o^ er, and lie sent him back.
Senator Lane. Why is that? Is not that the custom over there I
Mr. Jiooz. No, sir; not with cow men.
Senator Lane. Why not?
Mr. Booz. You mean
Senator Lane. Sending a man along?
Mr. Booz. That is the custom of the cow men. I thouglit vou said
it was the custom not to let the man go with the wagon. ' I don't
know what his idea is in sending my man back.
Senator Lane. So you are not permitted to have a man alon"- when
he is brading where your cattle are? "^
Mr. Booz. Well, he is branding where his cattle are, and mine
would get over there. I try to keep my cattle at home on my side of
the mountain.
Senator Lane. Xow, there was a (juestion came up about branding
cattle, that the (xovernment sent a man along with these lessees, to
assist in branding the Indians' cattle. Do you know anything about
those men, or anything about what kind of men they are,' or wlio pays
their wages?
]Mr. Booz. Well, they had one white man "along. He said Camp-
bell gave him his check. It was paid out of Indian funds, I suppose.
I could not say.
Senator Lane. Do they help Heinrich handle the cattle?
Mr. Booz. ID cattle?
Senator Lane. His cattle?
Mr. Booz. Yes.
Senator Lane. They go along as sort of guests, and at the same
time help him out?
Mr. Booz. Yes.
Senator Lane. ^Alio pays them while they are out?
Mr. Booz. They are with Heinrich's outfit.
Senator Lane. Now, when you first went on the range, what was
the condition of the Indians in relation to their material welfare?
Mr. Booz. Good.
Senator Lane. How does it compare now with then ?
Mr. Booz. Mighty poor.
Senator Lane. You think the Indians' condition now is poor?
Mr. Booz. The worst I ever saw.
Senator Lane. Are they short on food ?
Mr. Booz. They are short on food and work horses and saddle
horses— — ■
Senator Lane. And clothing
Mr. Booz. Clothing and everything. In fact, the U yoming jieople
along the line has complained about the Indians beggmg and being
a nuisance along the line.
Senator Lane. On account of poverty?
Mr. Booz. Poverty ; yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Are they a bad lot? , • , j •
Mr. Booz. A good lot of people if they are treated right and given
a show. . , , ^ , 0
Senator Lane. If you do not treat them right, what happens I
35601— PT 15—14 10
1956 CROW INDIAN KESEEVATION.
Mr. Booz. Well, there has been something happened — or if there
hadn't been some mighty good people to take them.
Senator Lane. In what way?
Mr. Booz. Hostile — that is what I think.
Senator Lane. You think that is due to the way they are treated?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. You think that if they were treated kindly and
justly there would be no trouble?
Mr. Booz. And let them have their stock, and not try to let them
farm. They are not farmers ; they are good stock men.
Senator Lane. You do not think they are farmers ?
Mr. Booz. No, sir. Give them alfalfa feed and let them sow hay,
and they will put up hay, because they know when they put up hay
it will bring money, and when they raise oats and other things they
know they have to haul it, and that is the last of it.
Senator Lane. Now, then, you think their condition has deteri-
orated and gone doAvn since you have been there?
Mr. Booz. Oh, yes.
Senator Lane. You can see that?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. What will be the ultimate result with those Indians
if conditions go on as they are?
Mr. Booz. I think most of them will be in the penitentiary or
killed the way they are working. They put out rew^ards there for
anybody stealing their cattle, and they come to me and ask me,
" What will we do ? We have nothing to eat. Wliat would you do ? "
I said, " I would eat as long as there was anything on the reserva-
tion." That is all I can say.
Senator Lane. Now, they are killing off some of these lessees'
cattle?
Mr. Booz. I expect once in a while they kill some.
Senator Lane. Do they kill any for you?
Mr. Booz. No, sir'; they never bother my cattle. I say,- when they
are hungry they come to me. I have been giving them potatoes and
one thing and another.
Senator Lane, When did you do this?
Mr. Booz. A few weeks ago.
Senator Lane. AVhy did you give them potatoes?
Mr. Booz. I had so many, and they were not worth anything.
Senator Lane. Did they need them particularly?
Mr. Booz. I should say they did.
Senator Lane. Did you think they were hungry?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Do you think there has been much suffering on
the reservation?
Mr. Booz. Yes ; more than ever was known.
Senator Lane. Have they any rations issued to them?
Mr. Booz. No.
Senator Lane. How do they make a living?
Mr. Booz. They don't live much; they were kind of existing.
Senator Lane. Are they still in that condition?
Mr. Booz. They were when I left. The trading stores had all
shut down on them. They could not buy on credit. They owed
them so much now and they did not know whether they were going
CROW INDIAN BESERVATION. 1957
to get any more annuity money and did not know whether tlieir
credit was good.
Senator Lane. The outlook for the Indians, then, under the pres-
ent conditions, you think, is rather unfavorahle^
Mr. Booz. Unfavorable; yes, sir. Just for instance, now, to show
you what the reservation is, take my bills here and see what I have
done when the outfits is all fighting me.
Senator Lane. What do j^ou mean by that?
Mr. Booz. Heinrich and the other fellows on this side of the moun-
tain. You can take my bills and see when I crossed the river with
307 head of cattle in 1902 and what my shipping bills is now and
what I have got. I have got about 2.000" head of cattle. I paid $200
for 53 bulls a year ago, and my cattle is all three-quarters and Vull
blood, very few scrubs in the bunch. And with this little 45.000 or
50,000 acres, and Avith a start 13 years ago with 307 head, if I can
ship $55,000 or $60,000 worth of stock, and sell horses and cattle to
that amount it looks like there is mighty poor mantigeinent that
the Indians can not live when they ov.n the whole outfit.
Senator Lane. When they own the grass?
Mr. Booz. Wlien they own the grass. And you can look right
there
Senator Lane. Then, you think that as the lessee there has pros-
pered the Indian has gone in the other direction?
Mr. Booz. Well, there is five considered to be millionaires, and I
know good and well by my own experience of being with them that
they have made a fortune right off the reservervation.
Senator Lane. How many cattle did you say the Indians had
when vou first went there?
Mr. Booz. About 3,500, I would suppose, or maybe more. They
branded about 3,500 calves.
Senator Lane. When you first went there?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. How many cattle would that represent?
Mr. Booz. That would represent between 12,000 and 13,000.
Senator Lane. How many have they now?
Mr. Booz. Very few now.
Senator Lane. How many do you suppose they would have, on an
estimate?
Mr. Booz. I would not think over 700 or SOO or 1.000 head. It
ought to be on record. They paid a man to count them last summer.
That is what he told me— he said he was paid to count the cows.
Senator Lane. Will you get that record?
Mrs. Grey. I tried very hard to get it, Senator Lane. I do not
think it would be here. Two vears ago we had a hearing in the
Indian agency office, and Mr. Scott said they did not have any data
in the office to show how many cattle there were, and that the chief
inspector said he was not .counting them and they had no data to
show. , ,Tr • 1-
Mr. Booz. These Indians have allotments along the Wyoming hne,
and they won't allow us to lease them. If they would allow us to
lease them they would have money to buy what thov wanted to
eat. For instance, I paid Mr. Peters $800 or $000. 1 hey got my
money, and the hay is standing over there, and the grass is iminn to
waste, and I can't feed it.
1958 CROW INDIAN EESERVATION.
Senator Lane. You have leased the land of him ?
Mr. Booz. And paid him; yes.
Senator Lane. And they won't let you use the hay ?
Mr. Booz. No, sir.
Senator Lane. Why?
Mr. Booz. They said it interfered with Mr. Heinrich. It would
cut a few thousand dollars out of his pocket, I suppose.
Senator Lane. They were afraid your cattle would leak out
through the fence?
Mr. Booz. His leak in, you know. I had 209 head in there, and
when I shipped I had 4 head out and he had 23 head inside. He will
put the checks in later. I have the checks where I paid the Indians.
Senator Lane. Do you know of any range that any of these lessees
have fenced in on which they will not permit Indians' cattle to
range ?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. And is it in the lease that they should permit the
Indians' cattle to range there?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir; I suppose so. I could not say as to that. It
is on the range that he used all the time.
Senator Lane. Where is that range?
Mr. Booz. It is from the Little Horn Eiver to the Black Canyon,
a country about — it is between 12 and 15 miles long, and that country
all lays up from this Eim Kock back to the mountains. He cuts
everything out of there in the spring and throws it below the Kim
Rock, and saves this country to throw his cattle in in the fall so they
Avould be safe in case of a big storm, so he can take his men and go
and round them up and take them to hay. They even cut my cattle
out. I was going through the range — I go right through the range,
riding backwards and forwards. I said, " Have you fellows got any
of my cattle? " They said, " Yes; there is a few down there." And
I went down to the ID cattle and what they call the " stray
bunch." They were going to throw them below the Rim Rock,
where the cattle had fattened — his winter range. They had some of
my cattle going there, to throw them over with these Indians' cattle
and what they call the " strays." I said, " Fellows, I want my cat-
tle," and I got 13 of my cows out, and in the bunch was a heifer, and
the fire was still burning, and there was not a scratch on her.
Senator Lane. They were driving them over onto the " starva-
tion" range. Is that right?
Mr. Booz. Well, the feed was not extra good.
Senator Lane. They were driving them off the good feed and onto
the poor feed?
Mr. Booz. Yes.
Senator Lane. That all goes in the cattle business?
Mr. Booz. Yes. They say out there, " How is it you have built
up so with your herd over there? " I said, "By good management
and staying with them, and figuring on the losses and increases.
You fellows with your feet up against the stoves in the banks and
offices don't know what is going on, and I do. That is why I have
prospered." I had quite a talk in the hotel there. They patted me
on the shoulder and said, " You are right." These bankers know
how much a man owes them, but tli^y don't know how much he has
got, and that it is how it occurs there are so many failures in the
West.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1959
Senator Lane. Yes; you are right about that. You say Heinrich
has fenced his range and won't let Indian cattle go on it?'
Mr. Booz. Well, he cuts them out. I have helped him time and
again.
Senator Lane. Maybe it is leased.
Mr. Booz. It is, part of it— allotments.
Senator Lane. Does he drive the Indians off their own allotments
and fence their allotments up?
Mr. Booz. I helped him to drive them off.
Senator Lane. Off their own allotments?
Mr. Booz. Belov^ the Rim Rock. It is allotted along the creek,
or very near it. There is one place in particular which they are
holding for a summer reserve that is not allotted.
Senator Lane. That is more of a cattleman's reservation th:in it
is an Indian reservation?
Mr. Booz. Oh, yes; decidedl3\
Mrs. Geey. Right there, the records show that there are 2.300 of
these allotments that are so controlled by the lessor, and the Indians
are prohibited from occupying.
Mr. Booz. I don't know. Mr. Scott and none of his men has told
me, but I have been told by others that has tried to lease their allot-
ments that every 40 has to be fenced separate if you lease the allot-
ment. That was done, I suppose, by the cowmen to keep the little
men out.
Senator Lane. I have a letter from the agent, I thinlc. or from
the department to that effect.
Mrs. Grey. We have a very recent one that Mr. Meritt issued about
six weeks ago, more stringent than any before.
Senator Lane. What kind of land is this?
Mr. Bcoz. It is good hay land. It could be watered very easily.
Senator Lane. Now, if the Indians are not permitted to use their
allotments and can not use the range, how do they make a living?
Mr. Booz. They exist: they don't live.
Senator Lane. Have they any tools to farm with?
Mr. Booz. Very poor, and what they buy they buy the very poorest
of machinery.
Senator Lane. Is that on account of poverty ?
Mr. Booz. I don't know.
Senator Lane. Or on account of their lack of judgment?
Mr. Booz. They don't buy it. They have been getting it from the
agent.
Mrs. Grey. What the trader furnishes.
Senator Lane. Is it what the trader furnishes?
Mr. Booz. Yes; Avhat the trader furnishes.
Senator Lane. What do you mean by "poor"?
Mr. Booz. Poor quality of tools?
Senator Lane. Yes.
Mr. Booz. Take their very poorest make of a mower: it wouhi last
a year.
Senator Lane. What is that?
Mr. Booz. A mower to mow grass. .
Senator Lane. "Wliat make is the pooi- mower? Or what is a good
machine ?
1960 CROW INDIAN EESEEVATION.
Mr. Booz. The McCormick is the best — McCormick and Deering.
I don't know the poor ones, because I never used one of them.
Senator Lane. What do they cost?
Mr. Booz. $65.
Senator Lane. AVhat does a poor one cost?
Mr. Booz. They cost the Indians about $75.
Senator Lane. What does it cost vou?
Mr. Booz. $65.
Senator Lane. For a poor one?
Mr. Booz. No; I never buy a poor one.
Senator Lane. They used to ha^e to pay more than you did?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir: they do at present. I went into Chicago and
bought blankets there — a lot of pack blankets. I bought them there
for 34 cents a pair. T went right to the agency and said, " ^Vliat is
these blankets worth ? '' and they told me $2.25 apiece.
Senator Lane. Wool or cotton?
Mr. Booz. They were cotton — cheap blankets.
Senator Lane. Are these allotments that are included in the big
leases dry land or well watered?
Mr. Booz. Some of them are well watered — most of them.
Senator Lane. Do the Indians complain about them?
Mr. Booz. Quite a little.
Senator Lane. Reliable Indians?
Mr. Booz. Yes; some of them mighty reliable — the best Indians on
the reservation.
Senator Lane. How many farmers, stockmen, inspectors, and line
riders are there on the reservation?
Mr. Booz. I could not say how many. I know part of them.
Senator Lane. How many do you suppose?
Mr. Booz. I would think there would be somewhere around 10, as
near as I could figure it.
Senator Lane. Would they have an idea what was going on there
if they were bright, able fellows?
Mr. Booz. They would if they were the right kind of men.
Senator Lane. Could they well avoid knowing?
Mr. Booz. They could not if they would get out. If they are going
to sleep until 8 or 9 o'clock I could go and steel a herd
Senator Lane. There is no way of their not knowing it if they are
fairly good men, is there?
Mr. Booz. None whatever.
Senator Lane. How many Indians are really making a living out
of farming do you suppose?
Mr. Booz. I guess about one-third of them, as near as I can say.
Senator Lane. What do they raise?
Mr. Booz. They raise grain and a little hay.
Senator Lane. Where is their market for grain?
Mr. Booz. They do not sell very much; they use it themselves.
The, traders buy most of it.
Senator Lane. Where do they ship it?
Mr. Booz. They sell it back to the Indians in the spring.
Senator Lane. The other Indians that do not raise it?
Mr. Booz. The Indians that don't raise it. They generally sell
them the feed — been selling it to these big sheep outfits.
Senator Lane. Is anybody allowed to farm on these big leases ?
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1961
Mr. Booz. Not that I knoAv of. There is some farming where there
has been some allotments leased.
Senator Laxe. I mean on the big leases.
Mr. Booz. No; they don't farm there.
Senator Lane. They do not allow it? It would interfere with
the grazing?
:Mr. Booz. The grass is the best crop they consider that they grow
Senator Lane. What kind of grass do you have? AMiich is
the best? Bunch?
Mr. Booz. Bunch and blue grass. Blue grass is better than
bunch grass.
Senator Lane, Do you know anything about gramma (
Mr. Booz. There is some there.
Senator Lane. That is the best of all, is it?
Mr. Booz. Yes ; that is fine.
Senator Lane. Did you ever Imow of any lessees cutting the In-
dians" wire fences?
Mr. Booz. I have drove through and rode through where it was
cut, but I didn't see them cut it. The Indians have complained
frequently about their driving their herds through their allotments,
and I have seen the fence cut and thrown around.
Senator Lane. Is the big fence that was recently built a benefit
to the Indians, in your opinion?
Mr. Booz. No, sir; there has been more dissatisfaction among
the Indians since the ID range was cut into by this fence
Senator Lane. "\'Miy is that?
Mr. Booz. It cuts them off from the allotments and from the sum-
mer resorts that they use up in the mountains where they go for
an outing in the summer. And they have been told that their cattle
and horses would be rounded up and put below this fence, on what
we have always called the " desert."
Senator Lane. That is not the best range, then?
Mr. Booz. No, sir.
Senator Lane. You would not select it for your OAvn cattle?
Mr. Booz. No, sir.
Senator Lane. You would rather be up in the mountains?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir; where they get food. AVe never have a
drought there in the mountains.
Senator Lane. As a cattleman, you would not put your cattle
below the fence? You would not do it?
Mr. Booz. Not if they let me do it for nothing. Not under tiie
circumstances, no. There has been sheep on it since November.
Senator Lane. Wliose sheep are they?
Mr. Booz. Lee Simonson's.
Senator Lane. Who is he?
Mr. Booz. He hns been leasing there.
Senator Lane. What effect would that have on the range, having
these sheep going over it all last fall and winter?
Mr. Booz. It would kill the grass out.
Senator Lane. It would not improve the range?
Mr. Booz. It would make it useless for another year.
1962 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Senator Lane. Do you consider the fence of any benefit to the
lessees — this fence across there? You say it did not benefit the
Indians.
Mr. Booz. Yes ; it would be a benefit if they would round up what
Indians' cattle there is above the fence and throw them below the
fence on what we always called the '' desert." It would be a benefit
to him, because it would take the Indians' cattle and horses off his
good feed on the mountain, where he Avants it for his own cattle.
Senator Lane. It seems, then, that the fence is just as much for
the benefit of the lessees as it is for the Indians ?
Mr. Booz. Yes; that is right.
Senator Lane. Or is it right?
Mr. Booz. That would be my opinion.
Senator Lane, And you are a practical stockman? That is your
opinion of it?
Mr. Booz. I have been handling them a long time.
Senator Lane. Was there a fence on this same land before this was
built?
Mr. Booz. Part of the way ; I could not say how far.
Senator Lane. Who built that and what was it built for?
Mr. Booz. Dana built it. It was kind of, I think, a drift fence,
as near as I can remember.
Senator Lane. To keep the cattle from drifting off before stormy
weather ?
Mr. Booz. To keep them from drifting off.
Senator Lane. What has become of it?
Mr. Booz. I could not say.
Senator Lane. It just disappeared?
Mr. Booz. It is gone.
Senator Lane. Was it the property of the Indians?
Mr. Booz. I suppose so. All the fences on the reservation was
supposed to be left there.
Senator Lane. Do all the lessees build their own fences?
Mr. Booz. I could not say. I have built my own, I know.
Senator Lane. Are there any gates in this new fence?
Mr. Booz. I have never been along, but I have been informed that
there were in places.
Senator Lane. Has it been cut, do you know?
Mr. Booz. I don't know that it has been cut. I have heard it was
cut, but I could not say.
Senator Lane. Do you think these lessees would change their range
in the hills or on the other side of the fence, acre for acre, with the
range left to the Indians?
Mr. Booz. North of the fence ; change it for the north side ?
Senator Lane. Yes; for the desert side?
Mr. Booz. I don't think they would under any consideration.
Senator Lane. You said awhile ago you would not take it.
Mr. Booz. I would not take it as a gift.
Senator Lane. The present condition of the Indian range below
the fence is what?
Mr. Booz. Below the fence?
Senator Lane. Yes.
Mr. Booz. It is miglity bad. There has been sheep on it ever since
last November.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1963
Senator Lane. You don't think it will fatten cattle if they put cat-
tle on there for the Indians next spring^
Mr. Booz. I don't think so.
Senator Lane. It would keep a few, I suppose?
Mr. Booz. A few, of course.
Senator Lane. How much of a tract is it ?
Mr. Booz. That would be hard for me to figure on in the desert.
Senator Lane. About how much ?
Mr. Booz. I think it is about 20 or 25 miles long, and 15 or 20
miles north and south.
Senator Lane. Is it well watered?
Mr. Booz. No.
Senator Lane. Do the cattle have to go a long way for water?
Mr. Booz. Quite a way.
Senator Lane. Would the Heinrich range sustain a new herd for
the Indians?
Mr. Booz. No, sir.
Senator Lane. AA^iy?
Mr. Booz. It is stocked to full capacity now. That is my opinion,
by riding over it — the grass that is on it and the cattle, you* sec.
Senator Lane. In your opinion, would the Indians eat the cattle
up if they were given to them in individual herds ?
Mr. Booz. I don't think so.
Senator Lane. Are they pretty good cattlemen naturally?
Mr. Booz. They are good stoclanen naturally.
Senator Lane. Better stockmen than farmers?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane, Have you employed Indians at this kind of work?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Are they good workers?
Mr. Booz. Good; just as good as any bunch I ever hired.
Senator Lane. They are reliable?
Mr. Booz. Reliable!
Senator Lane. Are they honest?
Mr. Booz. As far as I know.
Senator Lane. Do they treat you square; do they do their work
and not loaf on you?
Mr. Booz. Oh, yes.
Senator Lane. Do you think if the Indians were given control of
their own allotments they would be able t<^ make a living?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir; I do.
Senator Lane. You have heard the Indians talU about the leasing
of the "ID" range?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Are they satisfied with the method of handling it?
Mr. Booz. No, sir; thev are badlv dissatisfied.
Senator Lane. Why? 'They think it is to their detriment?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. And you think so, too?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. You think there is no doubt ab«)U( it ?
Mr. Booz. No doubt whatever.
1964 CROW INDIAN EESEEVATION.
Senator Lane, Now, I have a statement here from the department
that there were 20 head of cattle belonging to the United States and
2,159 head of cows belonging to the Indians. You said when you
first went there they branded how many calves?
Mr. Booz. About 3,500.
Senator Lane. That would give them a herd of about how many ?
Mr. Booz. About 13,000 or 14,000, without the calves. That is as
near as I can recollect, you laiow.
Senator Lane. And 7,291 horses and cattle belonging to the In-
dians.
Mrs. Grey. Do you think there are that many there ?
Mr. Booz. No.
Senator Lane. Could the lessees overstock the range without the
inspectors knowing it was overstocked?
Mr. Booz. If they go amongst them they could.
Senator Lane. Don't they go amongst them ?
Mr. Booz. I would not think they went much. I have been right
where I am for going on 14 years, and I have never seen one of them
over on my side, and I have rode from my place over to the railroad
on the reservation line and rode across the reservation line going on
14 years and they have never been there. And over there where there
was 745 head of cattle stolen I have invited them over and tried to
get them to come over there and they have never come. The line
rider that was drawing wages — ^lie told me Mr. Scott was paying the
w^ages — riding the line along the south line of the reservation in
Wyoming, I never saw him the whole summer, and I crossed the
reservation from three to live times a month, and the only time I
would see him was down at his own house.
Mrs. Grey. What is his name?
Mr. Booz. Dave Stewart — I think it is Dave, but it is Stewart.
Senator Lane. Now, if these big ranges were cut up into smaller
tracts and leased out to smaller stockmen, would it bring better
prices, do you think?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. It would be better for the interests of the Indians?
That would be better, of course, for the Indians ?
Mr. Booz. Yes; I would think so.
Senator Lane. Now, an inspector is a man that is supposed to
know the condition of the range and whether it is overstocked?
Mr. Booz. That is what he is supposed to laiow.
Senator Lane. That is what he is hired for?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Do you think the range is overstocked ?
Mr. Booz. It is stocked all it wnll hold at present. I was going to
say, I never saw the reports, but I have been told that the inspector
said there was enough there. The grasshoppers had ate all the
range up. There is my bill shows where 200 head of cattle brought
8 cents riglit on the forest reserve, and Frank Heinrich's — outside —
some of his cattle brought $1.35 right off the range.
Senator Lane. Did Heinrich at one time refuse to accept a check
in payment for your sublease?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir; twice.
Senator Lane. IIow did you pay him finally?
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1965
Mr. Booz. Paid him in cash. I suppose. Snidow paid him. Yen
can see m this letter— paid him one check for $i,333.
Senator Lane. Hoav h^ng ago was this?
Mr. Booz. That was three years ago in Februar}-.
Senator Lane. Did he accept checks formerly?
Mr, Booz. I don't know how Snidow, mv partner, settled witli liim
Mrs. Grey. It was in September. He was afraid to take the ch.'ck
because I was there. You see the date of it.
Senator Lane. September 18, 1913.
(The letter referred to is as follows:)
[T. A. Snidow, nillinas. Mont.]
SETrKMnF.B IS. 1913.
Mr. John H. Booz. Parkman, Wyo.
Dear John : I was at Lodge Grass to-day, and when I arrived home I recplve<l
a letter from yon, also a wire. Mrs. Snidow mailed yon clieck bonlc this eve. ns
I thought she had when she arrived home. I had a letter from Mr. Ilelnrleh
Monday to come to Lodge Grass to-day, and I went down to see him. I sup-
posd he wanted us to settle for what we owed him, but he would not take a
check, and I can't write in this letter wJiat he had to say. But will Ite down
Sunday on 42 train, and want to have a talk with you.
Yours, truly, T. A. s.mdow.
Senator Lane. These men sent out l\v the Government, they are
helping the lessee and being paid by the Government?
Mv. Booz. Y^es; when you round up a bunch of cattle they brand
everything — these fellows that are paid by the Government. You see,
they brand everj^thing.
Senator Lane. And they are there to guard the Indians?
Mr. Booz. They are supposed to.
Senator Lane. And they help the other fellow do the work. They
do not have a separate range division?
Mr. Booz. They are not permitted to; not of late days.
Senator Lane. He says in this letter :
Bul he would not take a check, and I can't write in this letter wimt lie hid
to say. But will be down Sunday on 42 train, and want to have n talk with you.
Mr. Booz. Heinrich said he would take off this $3.50 for what cattle
he had shipped, and would not charge us for shipping.
Senator Lane. Did he charge you?
;Mr. Booz. No.
Senator Lane. Was that the time Mrs. Grey was on the re.servn-
tion 'f
Mr. Booz. Yes; she went down on the train as Snidow and I
went in.
Senator Lane. Before that they had charged you and accepted
youj- checks?
Mr. Booz. They would charge me— it is taken out, yon sec [refer-
ring to a shipping bill]. There is the steer that is shipped, and they
have taken out $3.50 for shipping expenses.
Senator Lane. They had always done that before?
Mr. Booz. Yes.
Senator Lane. And this time they did not?
Mr. Booz. No.
Mrs. Grey. This letter does not refer to that check. They did n.»t
accept the check for $13,000.
Mr. Booz. No ; it was later.
1966 CROW INDIAN EESEKVATION.
Senator Lane. They refused to accept the $13,000 check from you
in payment of the range and shipping expenses ?
Mr. Booz. You see, Snidow is the man that said they would not
take no check. I don't loiow whether it was the check or was cash.
You see there by the letter it was $7,000.
Senator Lane. There was evidence before the commission a while
back that the farming lands of the Indians were fenced, almost with-
out exception.
(The witness also submitted the following:)
[T. A. Snidow, Billings, Mont.]
January 8. 1914.
Mr. John H. Booz, Parkman, Wyo.
Dear John : Tour two letters received about some cattle, and will say In
reply you are the cow man and anything you do is all right with me in handling
the cattle. As to the cattle market they seem to be going down a little all the
time. Our money is all gone out of the Huntley Bank, and I borrowed $3,000
last week and put in Huntley Bank for running expenses. We will have to
rustle money to pay Heinrich when he gets ready to settle. And I have .just
received notice from the United States marphal that yon and I are subpoenaed
to appear before the United States District Court of Wyoming for illegal fencing.
I don't know what the outcome of this will be, whether it will be a fine or im-
prisonment, or both. I think we had better come up and we will talk matters
over and see what is best to do. I have asked for a little more time. I wanted
to see you and find out what the trouble is. Come up as soon as you can.
Yours, truly,
T. A. Snidow.
(Thereupon, at 2.05 o'clock p. m., the joint commission adjourned
to meet to-morrow, Wednesday, March 18, 1914, at 7.30 o'clock p. m.)
MARCH 18, 1914.
Joint CoM^tissiON to Investigate Indian Affairs.
Washington. D. C.
The commission met in its office, room 128, in the Senate Office
Building, at 7.30 o'clock p. m.
Present: Senator Lane (acting chairman) and Representative
Stephens.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN H. BOOZ— Resumed.
Senator Lane. Mr. Booz, you are familiar with conditions on the
reservation up there, for the reason that you have lived there a good
many years ?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. I will tell you, Mr. Booz, there have been com-
plaints made to this commission that the interests of the Indians are
not being given the first consideration. The Indians and others have
made that'complaint, to the oiTect that the interests of the white men
who ha>e stock on the range and other interests of that sort are con-
sidered and given greater consideration than are the interests of the
Indians. "We are only concerned ^vith finding out the facts without
prejudice to anybody. Of course, naturally, ve want the Indians to
get exactly what belongs to them, nothing more and nothing less.
There has been more or less suffering among the Indians this
winter ?
Mr. Booz. More than I e\er saw in 21 years.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1967
Senator Lane. And I think I understood you to say the other day
that they were really short of food supplies^
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Do you know whether or not they received their
annuity this j^ear?
Mr. Booz. Several told me they had not l)efore I left home.
Senator Lane. What Mere they eating when you left, tliose you
were acquainted with?
Mr. Booz. It was mighty poor. I did not see it. hut honorable
Indians told me that some of the tribes were eating dogs, not alto-
gether— they said some of the Indians were eating dogs.
Senator Lane. To help pull themselves through {
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. For the actual necessities of life— and what else
would they have to eat? I think you said they were eating Hour?
Mr. Booz. Potatoes and flour. Some of the Indians have been a
nuisance along the Wyoming line.
Senator Lane. Begging, you mean?
Mr. Booz. Begging of the settlers.
Senator Lane. Were those Indians who had allotments — they were
allotted Indians?
Mr. Booz. Most of them, maybe all of them; I could not say, be-
cause I do not keep any tally of the ditferent Indians who are allot-
ees, or anything like that.
Eepresentative Stephens. Most of them are allotted, are they not?
Mr. Booz. Most of them are allotted; some are not. Mrs. Dillon
told me she was allotted up at Huntley, but her allotment was can-
celed.
Representative Stephens. They were alloted good lands, were they
not?
Mr. Booz. Mrs. Dillon had the finest place on the Yellowstone,
where Huntley is now.
Senator Lane. The allotments of these Indians, you say, is pretty
good land?
Mr. Booz. Most of it.
Senator Lane. What is it good for?
Mr. Booz. It is good for farming and grazing land; it is extra
good grazing land.
Senator Lane. W^hat is farming land worth there, about, in the
open market?
Mr. Booz. Land of the white men or the Indians?
Senator Lane. White men and the Indians, if you were going out
to buy it? 1 J. *-, -,r»A
Mr. Booz. I bought a place adjoining the allotted land for !>2,200
and held it — I could not say whether it was 14 months or 10 montlis—
and sold it for $4,800, and the B Company got hohl of it. They
gave $21,500 for it; I think it was either 14 or 15 years after I had
bought it for $2,200.
Senator Lane. How many acres were in that?
Mr. Booz. One hundred and sixty.
Senator Lane. Land is worth there about how much an acre, goixl
farming land, allotted like it wouhl be?
Mr. Booz. You mean off the reservation, or on the reservation!
Senator Lane. On the reservation.
1968 CEOW INDIAN KESEEVATION.
Mr. Booz. I would think $25 to $35, irrigated land, with water on
it under ditch.
Representative Stephens. What do they raise — potatoes, corn, and
vegetables?
Mr. Booz. Some of them do. There are not many of them who
farm — about one-third. As I stated yesterday, Mr. Stephens, one-
third of them made a living by farming. I will say this : By " farm-
ing " I mean with their stock included, you know. They would sell
a horse or two or a beef or two with the stuif they would raise on
the farm — their hay and such as that.
Representative Stephens. You raise potatoes yourself, do you not,
for your men?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. How many men have you on your
ranches ?
Mr. Booz. On the two ranches I have six men and two lady clerks.
Representative Stephens. Eight persons, then, all the time?
Mr. Booz. Very near all the time.
Representative Stephens. Do you have to buy any potatoes?
Mr. Booz. Oh, no.
Representative Stephens. How many men do you have raising
those potatoes?
Mr. Booz. We raise a garden and potatoes with the other things.
T had potatoes in my cellar to sell, but there is no sale for them. I
have been giving them to the Indians.
Representative Stephens. How much can you raise to the acre?
Mr. Booz. Potatoes?
Representative Stephens. Yes.
Mr. Booz. Oh, good acres raise 150 bushels.
Representative Stephens. Does it take very much labor to raise
150 bushels to the acre?
Mr. Booz. Not very much.
Representative Stephens. One hundred and fifty bushels would
keep a family a year ?
Mr. Booz. Quite a while.
Representative Steppiens. How many days' work would they have
to put in to raise an acre of potatoes?
Mr. Booz. About 10 or 12 days.
Representative Stephens. Is there anything to prevent them rais-
ing potatoes on their own land, if they would work just a little bit?
Mr. Booz. If they had the seed, there would not be.
Representative Stephens. The Government furnishes seed when
they want it, does it not?
Mr. Booz. I could not say.
Senator Lane. Do they have teams to plow the lands?
Mr. Booz. Very few of them have teams — good teams. Some have
teams, but very few have extra good teams that the}^ can farm with.
They are pony teams, most of them. Some of them have as good
teams as anybody, for which they pay as high as $500 for a team.
Senator Lane. And those people who have teams, do they raise
potatoes?
Mr. Booz. Well, I could not say how many of them raise potatoes;
they raise potatoes on the reservation.
CROW INDIAN RESEEVATION. 19 69
Eepresentative Stephens. If white men were in the same condition
as the Indians having as good hind as they have, do voii think the
Grovernment should support them and raise potatoes for them?
Would not the white man work or starve?
Mr. Booz. The white men would raise potatoes.
Eepresentative Stephens. They would have to work ..r starve.
Are the Indians any better than the white men '.
Mr. Booz. I do not know that they are.
Senator Lane. What were you going to explain?
Mr. Booz. I was going to explain the situation on the hv^itn ation
when I went there.
The Indians have been spoken of many times as having abo\it
25,000 or 30,000 head of horses and 1l>,000 or 13,000 head of cattle.
I could not say just exactly what number thev had, but to-day they
have scarcely any horses or cattle. I do not" see them when 'l ride
across the reservation. I have a ranch over here 50 miles from the
railroad, just adjoining the reservation, and I cross the reservation
coming to Parkman during the summer on an average of three or
four times in the month, and in crossing the reservation over this
way [indicating] and the other way, going out toward Billings, I
do not see any stock like I did years ago when I first went in, or
before when the country was lined with horses, and in riding across
the reservation you were hardly ever out of sight of horses and cattle.
Senator Lane. They have farmers there to show them how to
farm, do they not?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Do you laiow how many?
Mr. Booz. I could not say exactly. I think six or seven employees.
I do not know whether they are all farmers — what the}' do ; some of
them farm.
Senator Lane. Have they improved their farming methods since
you came there?
Mr. Booz. They have.
Senator Lane. What do the Indians live in — houses or tents? ^
Mr. Booz. They live in houses part of them and part of them live
in tents.
Senator Lane. Have they thoroughly good houses?
Mr. Booz. Fairly good. Most of them are pretty fair shacks or
shanties, small houses, and some of them around the agency have
very good houses. Mr. Scott, in his testimony, said that the range
below the fence in the summer time was just as good as above the
fence up in the mountains. I asked him if in the sunmier there was
as good range to feed cattle, and he said there was good range every-
where in the summer, and I asked him if it was just as goocl gra/.mg
on the lowland in the summer and in the fall, and he replied 'M)h,
yes," and I further asked, "As it is in the mountains and in the
spring? " and he said, " Just as good." I asked, " It does not dilTer ?
and he replied, "I think there is not an appreciable dilTerence. Of
course there are spots here and there that are good; others tiiat are
not good, but I can not sav that one section is better than the other
as far as that goes." And he did not seem to know, and he said liim-
self he did not know much about it; that he was not a cattleman.
Reperesentative Stephens. Is that the reservation where they have
two farms and six farmers?
1970 CHOW INDIAN EESERVATION.
Senator Lane. I think so ; I think that is the place.
Mrs. (trey. The Indians are not permitted to occupy their allot-
ments.
Senator Lane. Mr. Booz said that if the Indian goes into farming
he has got to fence up tight.
I do not know but what Mr. Booz's evidence has covered pretty
nearly the whole ground that I had in mind when I called him in
the first place the other day, and that was to find out more par-
ticularly about these leases.
I want to ask you, Mr. Booz, if you know of any cases where the
Indians' cattle have been branded by the lessees ?
Mr, Booz. You mean the ID cattle that were sold to the white
men?
Senator Lane. Branded.
Mr. Booz. The white men branded them?
Senator Lane. Yes.
Mr. Booz. I could not say; I have heard that. I never saw it
myself.
Senator Lane. I want to know if you know anything about
Scratches-his-Face's fence and his cattle being scattered or anything
about that ?
Mr. Booz. Yes.
Senator Lane. Was that done intentionally ?
Mr. Booz. I could not say whether it was. I have ridden through
his fence where it was cut, and the wire throwed around, but I can
not say whether it was cut intentionally or not. I have seen his
cattle on the mountains when he tried to keep them in his pasture.
I could not say whether they followed other herds out there. You
understand that a cow will naturally go to a mountain where there
is good range and fresh water in preference to staying on the low-
land in the summer ; that they drift to the low ground when the snow
and storms come.
Senator Lane. Do any of the Government employees run cattle
on the range that you laiow of for their own private benefit ?
Mr. Booz. I could not say. I have heard they did; I have
heard so.
Senator Lane. We only want what you laiow of your own
laiowledge.
Mr. Booz. I could not say whether they do run cattle.
Senator Lane. We do not want any hearsay. It would not be
fair to you or them either.
Are the lessees permitted to buy Indians' cattle and ship them
without inspection?
Mr. Booz. They do. I do not know whether they are inspected or
what is done with them.
Senator Lane. They buy cattle from the Indians and ship them
without inspection?
Mr. Booz. Heinrich does, or the company or whoever is represent-
ing him.
Senator Lane. Is that the proper procedure?
Mr. Booz. I do not know whether it is or not.
Senator Lane. Mrs. (irey, do vou know what the rules are about
that?
Mrs. Grey. They are very strictly against it.
Senator Lane. Whose rule is that?
CROW IKDIAX RESERVATION. 1<j7]^
^^ Mrs. Gkkv. I think it .s an Indian Allai.s or Interi...- Departn.ont
Senator Lank. AVhy i.s there buch a rule'
Mrs. CxREV. Becanse. if the lessees <.wn t'he same l.ran.l as the In-
dians. It gives the lessees an opportunitv of disposing of hid';;.
Senator Lane Would there be any record of the Indians" hran.is
Mr Booz. There oucrht to he. Vov instanre. there is an Indian's
brand there. I would buy that bran.l: and. sav. he ha.l 40 he;, of
eattle. and I woukl put my brand on that " ID;'' what would prevent
me putting my brand on 15 or 20 of those " ID - steers belongin- t<.
the Indians when they are scattered ovej- :}0().0()() ,„• 4()0,()()() a.-res and
shipped in large herds and train loads going to market' Ihive
never owned an " ID " steer with " MY "" on it.
Representative Stephens. Is it customary anmn'-r the cattlemen to
counterbrand (
Mr. Booz. They all do: ves. sir.
Representative "Stei'iiens. Do thev do that on the Indian^• reserva-
tion {
Mr. Booz. No, sir: I have never saw one iu-and since I have been
there. I do not think they allow it on the i-eservation. I do not
think they allow the "ID" brand to be monkeyed with, burnt or
anything like that — counterl)randed.
Senator Lane. Mr. Sloan informs me they ])rosecute them up in
his country.
Mr. Booz. AVould you gentlemen just let me show you how thev
work the "'ID" brand?
Representative Stephens. I know ; i)ossibly the Senator does not.
]Mr. Booz (making pencil sketch). There [indicating] is the "ID"
burnt this Avay and there is the " Co." burnt this way. only they do a
better job than I have done. They i-un this down through there and
that through there.
Representative Stephens. It is what is called "liurnt brands" on
the range?
Mr. Booz. Oh. yes. I owned the ranch, toi-e down the chute
-.vhere they branded. I believe they counted 74."i of them.
Senator Lane. Where they had been branding^
Mr. Booz. And they have had me branded as a thief and beggar
ever since I bonght them ont and persuaded the (lovernment ofticers
to come over and see my outfit; and my branders aiv men that I pay
so much a head on everything I shij). and they never have found any-
thing that was wrong witii my herd, and I have i)een woi-king and
building it up in the 14 years.
Senator Lane. You say there havt- l)een 700 of those reiirandcd *.
Mr. Booz. Seven hundred and forty-five head counted out of that
place before I got it. Garvin and Lee are the men who served the
term in the penitentiary for burning out the brands.
Senator Lane. They punished those fellows?
Mr. Booz. Thev got one year and $1,000, and they took the pau|>cr's
route for the fine and did not have the $1,000 to pay. T understand.
;^uG01— PT 1.5—14 11
1972 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Senator Lane. That was some time ago?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Has there been anything of that kind happened
lately?
Mr. Booz. Nothing in there.
Senator Lane. Do you know of any more of it anywhere else?
Mr. Booz. No, sir.
Senator Lane. Is there any complaint?
Mr. Booz. I have not seen any.
Senator Lane. Is there any complaint?
Mr. Booz. Yes ; there has been some complaint.
Senator Lane. Not a great deal ?
Mr. Booz. There have been several cases.
Senator Lane. Isolated instances?
Mr. Booz. Yes.
Representative Stephens. No more instances than there would be
among the same number of white men?
Mr. Booz. Not any more.
Representative Stephens. It is a very common thing on the range
to have cattle rebranded so as to change the original brand.
Mr. Booz. They do not brand them out.
Representative Stephens. What they call " burnt " brands or
" changed "■ brands.
Mr. Booz. They do not change them; they are not allowed to
change them by law.
Representative Stephens. I understand, but they sent those fellows
to the penitentiar}" for that very thing and do prosecute all the cases
they get proof on, as far as you know ?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Have you ever bought any Indian
cattle ?
Mr. Booz. I never have.
Representative Stephens. Have there been any burnt cattle on
your range?
Mr. Booz. I shipped some of these mashed [O].
Representative Stephens. What else did you want to say about
that?
Mr. Booz. About the cattle on the reservation?
Representative Stephens. Yes.
Ml\ Booz. I have heard the Indians complain about the Heinrich
Co. branding cattle, but I never saw the cattle.
Representative Stephens. And you do not loiow of your own
Imowledge anything about it?
Mr. Booz. I do not know of my own knowledge that it was done, be-
cause I did not see the cattle they have complained to me about being
branded. The department ought to know something about it; I
think they have had quite a lot of investigation.
Representative Stephens. You run steer cattle altogether?
Mr. Booz. Oh. no.
Representative Stephens. Do you raise cattle?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir ; I believe I made the statement about crossing
the river with 307 head in 1902, did I not, Senator?
Senator Lane. I do not remember.
Mr. Booz. I crossed the Bighorn River in 1902 with 307 head of
mixed stock, mostly she stock.
I
CROW INDIAX RESERVATIOX 1973
Eepresentative Stephens. Since that time you have Inrii raisintr
irom that stock c " ^
Mr. Booz. I have been Imjing and raising, and to-dav wr have in
the neighborhood of 2,500 head, cattle and horses, and, "as I want to
explain, my partner, Mr. Arnold, and I went in together. Sniduw
bought m with us three years afterwards— no: four vears afterwards
I would not be positive— three or four vears afterwards— and wo run
together about a year, and Snidow bought Mr. Arnold out. 'Ihat
gave us two-thirds interest in the Basin Cattle Co. 1 paid all the
notes out of the cattle since that time. I think he said that he put
in $25,000 or $2G,000— I could not say exactly how miu-h: about that
much in money— and since that I have paid all of the joint notes out
of the Basin Cattle Co.'s steers.
Representative Stephens. The Indians, you say, had this common
brand: they were not allowed to brand with individual brands^
Mr. Booz. The Indians' cattle— the (■omi)any cattle wore the
ID Co.; the individual cattle wore their own brand with II) on them.
Representative Stephens. Were their cattle stock cattle— year-
lings, cows, and all kinds?
]\Ir. Booz. Mixed cattle ; yes.
Representative Stephens. What kind do they sell — vearlings,
2-year olds, or steers, largely '.
Mr. Booz. I could not say. I w as on the corral looking through
their cattle, what they called the " stray bunch," and I think it was
two loads, and quite a lot of yearlings and 2-year olds and mixed
cattle — Indian cattle — mixed through these. I was looking to see if
any of mine were being shipped oft' the range.
Representative Stephens. Do they ship the heifers?
Mr. Booz. These were heifers; mixed cattle. The record in Chi-
cago ought to bear me out in what I said by the weights of these
cattle. These yearlings and 2-year olds ought to be there on the rec-
ord with the ID brand, and the weights, and where the money went,
and everything. Whether it is or not, I could not say.
Representative Stephens. The State has inspectors?
Mr. Booz. We pay our inspector, and I suppose the Montana men
do the same.
Repiesentative Stephens. Then there would be a record made of
all these Indian cattle that would be shipped ?
Mr. Booz. There ought to 1 e.
Representiptive Stephens. Both there and at the points where they
are received?
Mr. Booz. I am especially interested in seeing that I get my money.
If I ship "I D" cattle I Veport to the Indians who shipped them
and state what they bring, and tliey get the money.
Representative ^^tephens. Do you have better i-ange tiian the In-
dians' range?
Mr. Booz. I have got what is called the -dry corner " of the resei
vation, on the west side of the Big Horn Mountains.
Representative Stephens. Is your range crowded?
Mr. Booz. Not so very much; not on this dry corner. "\^ ithout
this dry corner I wouldhaye to practically go out of the cow busi-
ness. . ,
Representative Stephens. Do you kno\v whethei- the Indians
range has been crowded so the range would be injured?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
1974 CROW INDIAN EESEKVATION.
Representative Stephens. Have there been some ''die outs"?
Mr. Booz. Yes; quite a lot of them.
Representative Stephens. Have some lost 50 to 90 per cent?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Do you know the Herring Cattle Co.?
Mr. Booz. No, sir.
Representative Stephens. Do you know of any Texas companies
that were raising cattle and lost 50 to 90 per cent 'i
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir. Guggle & Simpson, I understood, lost 75 to
80 per cent of their cattle.
Representative Stephens. They came through with very few.
They had crowded their ranges, had they not?
Mr. Booz. They had crowded their ranges, and there was no grass
in the fall for them to pick up. I used to work for Guggle &
Simpson.
Representative Stephens. Would not that be about the same case
if the Indians' range was crowded; their cattle would die the same,
w^ould they not?
Mr. Booz. If they were not prepared to take care of them with hay
and feed.
Representative Stephens. The IndiaJis do not take very good care
of stock, do they?
Mr. Booz. They love a cow and a horse better than the white man.
Repi'esentative Stephens. Do they take care of them in the
winter ?
Mr. Booz. If they would fix it so they could put the land in hay
instead of trying to make farms, good stockmen could be made out
of them and they would be all right.
Representative Stephens. Do they ever put up hay to take care of
cattle ?
Mr. Booz. I have the checks here to show what I paid for Indian
hay.
Representative Stephens. For their own cattle, I mean.
Mr. Booz. They have not got much to feed. There [exhibiting
papers] are checks that I paid for Indian hay.
Representative Stephens. They have got the native grass on the
range ?
Mr. Booz. Would you let me explain about the reservation — about
the cattle business there?
Representative Stephens. Yes. Have they not got the low
grounds ?
Mr. Booz. The white men have got that.
Representative Stephens. How do they get it? Is it leased to
them ?
Mr. Booz. Leased to them. Take myself, here, for instance. I
crossed the river with 307 head of cattle, and to-day they are worth
$250,000, or around that. I have made that, although they have
fought my business ever since I crossed the river. A\liat could I
have done if they said, "Booz, you may take this Peters place; you
can have 1,;3'20 acres in that; you can put up a kind of an experiment
place and let the Indians see Avhat you are doing." I could not get
the Peters place, and right hei'e was Frank Heinrichs. who went over
and leased (Jeorge Pease's place at the same time I was trying to get
this, and to-day he owns it.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1975
Eepresentative Stephens. Who was the ajjeiit he U':is(>.l fmiu'
Mr. Booz. Mr. Reynolds.
Representative Stephens. Where is he now ".
Mr. Booz. Billino:s.
Representative Stephens. Is he out of the Indian Serviced
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. How lon^ did he lease for (
Mr. Booz. I could not say how lon<r. He owns it now and lias a
deed for it.
.^Representative St.ph..s. It w„s .,K, .f.env.nls „„.l ,„• ,,„„.l,t
Mr. Booz. He leased it and then houjxht it.
Representative Stephens. AVhen it was sold, he l)ou<rht it?
Mr. Booz. (Jeoro:e Pease's place and his wife— he <;ot^that. and the
other he leased until the boys become of aire, and they are usinir that
themselves.
Senator Lane. As I understand you. then, the Indians have no
cattle to feed the hay to if they put uj) the hay ?
Mr. Booz. They have very few cattle. They had a man counting
them last year, which ought to be on record. " He is considered the
man who ought to count them. He had a fair show to count them.
I said. ''How many cattle of mine did you count T'— Mr. Scott said
he was going to hold my cattle for trespassing— and he said, " We
counted 20 of yours that had drifted from the ivscrve out to Hein-
rich's or the reservation." So I supposed he was taking and count-
ing— taking a correct count of them.
Senator Lane. Some of the hay they do raise, then, they i-aise for
market, do they not?
Mr. Booz. I understand the lessees were to buy it.
Senator Lane. That is their only market for it. is it?
Mr. Booz. I could not say. They might sell it to other iieo)>le.
Senator Lane. Who else would they sell to and how far wouhl
they have to haul it?
Mr. Booz. There are 123 tons that I bought and ])aid for. the hay
which is standing there, and I can not feed it.
Senator Lane. Why can you not feed it?
Mr. Booz. Mr. Scott forbid me putting any cattle down theiv.
Senator Lane. Do these other lessees need the hav for their cattle^
Mr. Booz. ^Y[\o is that?
Senator Lane. Ileini-ich and othei's: do they need the hav?
Mr. Booz. We do not need much hav this year.
Senator Lane. So there was not much of a mai-ket for iiay ?
Mr. Booz. Not much of a market for hay.
Senator Lane. If the Indians have no cattle to iovA their hav to.
and can not sell to the lessees, they are left with it on theii- hands?
Mr. Booz. That is right.
Senator Lane. Is there much hay left on the reserve this yeai?
Mr. Booz. I could not say how much of it was bouglit. I havi-
not been amongst them verv much. I know tliere are 123 tons that
is paid for and which is supportinir a lot of little papoos.'s with
feeding grub and wearing clothes which that money bought, and I
can not feed the hay.
Senator Lane. Can vou not haul it?
Mr. Booz. Oh, no: I could not haul it out at all.
1976 CROW INDIAN KESEEVATION.
Senator Lane. Could you not sell it to anybody else?
Mr, Booz. No, sir.
Senator Lane. Why not^
Mr. Booz. Bostvvick and Heinrich's cattle are around there to
eat it.
Senator Lane. If joii can not find a market and the Indians can
not find a market, why do you not sell it? Could you not ship it to
Billings '(
Mr. Booz. Oh, no ; it is 15 miles by railroad.
Senator Lane. The lessees have a contract to buy this hay them-
selves, do they, from the Indians; that is in their contract?
Mr. Booz. I have never read the contract.
Mrs. Grey. It is in every contract made; the}" must buy it at the
market price.
Senator Lane. I do not think that was in the contract that we saw.
Mrs. Grey. It is in every one of them, Senator Lane.
Senator Lane. I did not see it. Have you got a copy of those
contracts here?
Mr. Keating. We have a copy of all those contracts.
Senator Lane. You had better make that statement. As you
understand it and told it to me, and as you have written to me, if
the Indians were allowed to sell their hay which is inside of their
fence lines to the highest bidder who would come inside the fence
lines and feed it to his cattle, that the Indians would not be in the
state of destitution they are now in?
Mr. Booz. That is right.
Senator Lane. And you have offered in several instances to buy
this hay and feed your cattle and keep them off of the lessees' range?
Mr. Booz. That" is right.
Senator Lane. That is the complaint that Booz and the Indians
make.
Representative Stephens. How many Indians have got hay in
that position?
Mr. Booz. There are 6. I think, that own hay in those 123 tons
[exhibiting checks] .
Eeprcsentative Stephens. How many acres of land would the
six Indians have?
jMr. Booz. I think they own about 2,600 or 2,700 acres — that is,
they and their families.
Representative Stephens. About how many cattle would that take
care of during the winter?
Mr. Booz. The feed that is in there, if they put it up in good
shape — lots of it they did not put up. It was late, and we had
early snows in September. It would take care of 500 head of cattle.
Representative Stephens. How much a head would that be when
fed to cattle?
Mr. Booz. I consider every ton of hay you put in a steer to make
the value of about $5.
Representative Stephens. It would be Avorth $2,500, then?
Mr. Booz. Yes.
Senator Lane. Are there more places on the reser\ation besides
these six?
Ml'. Booz. I should say, plenty of them.
Representative Stephens. These receipts here indicate that.
CKOW IXDIAX RESERVATION. 1977
Senator Lane. I Avaiit to know how nianv otluT place.v^ thore are
where the Indians could put up hay aud bcll it this wav if the out-
siders were allowed to come in and feed it. 1)„ vou know how many?
Mr. Booz. A pile of them. *
Senator Laxe. As many as 15 or 20?
Mr. Booz. Fifty or sixty.
Senator Lane. Do you know of anv cases of destitution there that
have o-one so far that the children of the Indians have heen si<-k in
consequence or maybe lost their li\es?
Mr. Booz. Only one case. He is a ]:>articular friend of mine. I
have taken quite a lot of interest in him. lie is a mi<rhty <,'o()d num,
part Sioux; he married a half-breed Crow. His little j?"irl was .sick.
The house is on my road across backwards and forwards, and I
stopped several times. The little iiirl was sick, and her father had
come from the store Avith a little grub. I loaned him $10. and he
went down and got some grub, and in the bill of gmb thei-e was
several cans of condensed ''Carrie Xation'' milk, which .stands that
high I illustrating], and the mother took it and gave it to the child,
and it drank nearly the whole can of milk. It died in a few days.
I made the remark, ''That little child will drink so nun-li of that
condensed milk that it will make it sick." and Mrs. Dillon >he took
it awa.y. and when I went back it was dead of indigestimi of the
bowels.
Senator Lane. That came from gorging itself. Was it hungry
before that?
Mr. Booz. Mrs. Dilbm told me they were living on potatoes and
Hour mixed with water. She said they did not have any lard or
sugar. I said, ''I will shoAv you where my heart is good." and I
loaned her $10, and they went down and got some grul). That was
the time they came up with stuff they had bought, when the child
got a hold of the milk. The child had been sick (juite a while. I
could not say the condensed milk killed it. understand me.
Senator Lane. Mr. Booz says that the condition of the hulian.s.
Judge, has been going down hill ever since he has l)een there, and
it is worse now than at any time in his exj^ei-ience in 14 years, and
gradualh^ getting worse. On the other hand, the lessees have grown
wealthy off of it.
Representative Stephens. Including Booz himself. If the In-
dians were permitted to sell their hay. Mr. Booz. would that relieve
the distress among them?
Mr. Booz. Oh, ves.
Representative Stephens. About how nuich have they pnt up. do
vou think?
Mr. Booz. I would suppose on the i-eservatton they must have
around 1,500 and 2,000 tons.
Representative Stephens. That would i)c $10,000. at $5 a ton ^
Mr. Booz. Yes. , , ,. , ,
Representative Stephens. Is it not a fact that the Indn.n- fences
are very poor? r i i
Mr. Booz. They are very poor, most of them: s(.n)e ol them lui\e
good fences. , , , 4»i •„
Representative Stephens. Suppose you slunild i>ut y.ur rattle in-
side some of those bad fences?
1978 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Mr. B(^oz. I am man enough to fix the fence — buy Avire and fix
them.
Representative Stephens. Suppose otiier men should buy the grass
up besides you?
Mr. Booz. Tliey would get out on the reservation.
Representative Stephens. Do you suppose they would build up
the fences?
Mr. Booz. They have a contract with the Indians, and the Indians
would see they did build it up.
Representative Stephens. Is not that the objection of the other
lessees ?
Mr. Booz. It is the objection of them; but my cattle were in a
1,700-acre pasture, with good fences, and when I put in my 209 head
of cattle — when I rounded them vip to put them on the cars to ship,
I was out 4 head, and Bostwick and Heinrich had 23 head of cattle
in with my beeves. Thei-e were 23 of the company's cattle inside of
the Indian pasture and 4 of mine outside.
Representative Stephens. Did you complain to Mr. Scott about
these Indians not l)eing permitted to sell their hay ?
Mr. Booz. I could not complain to Scott.
Representative Stephens. Why?
Mr. Booz. I am mighty near what you call a *" peon." I could not
get off my Wyoming ranch anyway vvithout coming across Scott's
domain, and he would say, " Booz, you keep off of this reservation "' ;
and how would I get backward and forward from one home to an-
other and to the post office?
Representative Stephens. Did he know that you had bought this
hay?
Mr. Booz. I sup])ose so. He sent me a telegram — it ought to be on
record here somewhere ; I sent it to Washington — where he told me
to put my cattle over there and keep them inside.
Representative Stephens. That would be a fail- proposition, would
it not?
Mr. Booz. That was fair; I have no objection.
Representative Stephens. Why did you not do it?
Mr. Booz. I did; but after I put these cattle there and agreed to
buy this hay and ship them I had cattle over at my home ranch, right
across the reservation line, and I wanted to put them on to feed this
hay, and he forbid me to put any more on. He said the stockmen
were going to hold my cattle, Avhat few drifted over there, for tres-
passing.
Representative Steppiens. Had they trespassed on their ranges?
Mr. Booz. Oh. yes; a few, maybe — 15 or 20. The Government man
Avho was counting u]) the Indian cattle was counting mine, and he
said he counted 20; but when I rounded u]) my beeves on the forestry
range, over 50 miles from the railroad, I brought 53 of Bostwick's
and Ileinrich's cattle — big fat cattle, ready to ship — and he sent a
man and told me to turn them loose over near the i-aili-oad in one
of his pastures, which I did. I did not shij) them. I never charged
him a cent for shi])ping cattle since we have been neighbors. He has
chai'ged me i|^3.50 for range fees and shipping fees.
Reju-esentative Stephens. That is a row between you and Hein-
rich, the other lessee?
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1979
Mr Booz. Thut is all riofht. I nr,u>ss I iumim- kicked about tliat I
have been making money. I am not down heiv trviii"- to irnifl or
get graft All I am trying to get is a fair, s<,uare dnil, arui eome
from my home where I have lived, trving to get a right so I can .^.t
from my ranch out to the road backward and forward fi(.m tlu-
ranch to the railroad, and from the ranch over across the other wav
to the post office, where I have to go across the reservation. Siippo.se
Mr. Bostwick or Mr. Heinrich, whoever owns the biand. woidd sav,
"You order Booz to stay off that reservation." wiiat woidd I (h>? " '
Representative Stephens. Do they icfuse t(. h-t voii haul hay
home?
Mr. Booz. I could not haul it; it is 15 miles.
Representative Stephens. He did refuse to k't you put the cMtth'
into the pasture and eat the hay ?
Mr. Booz. Yes.
Representative Stephens. I thought you said a wliik- ago y<.u put
the cattle in and fed it?
Mr. Booz. You misunderstand. This was a i)unch in the spring
that I brought over and shipped. When I ]Mit the cattU- in I toM
^he Indians I would feed the grass off and take this •_'()'.> head that I
^ad in there, and was going to ship all but <> or 7, and I wouM j)ay
lo cents for pasture and $5 a ton for the hay, and wlien 1 wouhl get
these cattle to the market Scott notified me not to jMit any cattle
over there. The stockmen had made a complaint, and he said he
was going to hold my cattle for trespassing, what few there were
over there. There were four head out of tliese 'iOi*. and "JH of llein-
rich's in the Indian pasture that we rounded up: and 1 work niigiity
good men, most of them men of families and all honoi-ablc men.
Senator Lane. When you came back to feed this fall, you wei-e
not allowed to do it?
Mr. Booz. This fall when I was going to bring these cattle over
and feed and stay until 1 could throw them over the mountain in
May or the 1st of June, he forbid me putting them over there. lie
says, " You can rent that Indian land for farming i)urposos, but you
can not put any stock over there." "What would I do witii hay over
there 15 miles" from home and I could not put my cattle there to
eat it?
Representative Stephens. And the hay is there yet (
Mr. Booz. The hav is there yet: yes, sir.
Mrs. Gret. There'are hundreds of sublessees, and Mr. 15. .o/. is oidy
one.
Senator Lane. Do vou know about the lands that aie oil u|) m the
mountains, as to whether thev contain mineral or not?
Mr. Booz. T am quite a poor judge of mineral. It looks to mo
something like rock— it glistens, and there are all kinds <»f coloi-s.
Senator Lane. Is it coal ? , i i i ,
Mr. Booz. No: it is iron and coi)pei- or soiucthmg. I <-oul'' '""
sav what it was. I would not sav: it is mineral of some kind.
"Senator Lane. How many cattle do you estimate Hemn.h is run-
ning there on the range? . .i .i . i i
Mr. Booz. Well, I would say. judging Irom the cattle that I vuu
through-I was amongst the cattle five davs hunting some l'''ll^ ' ;;''
had got awav, and I suppose that they had somewhere Mr-.nn.l ...000
or 22,000.
1980 CHOW INDIAN EESERVATION.
Senator Lane. How many have Spear Bros.?
Mr. Booz. I could not say.
Senator Lane. Do you know anything about Bair's cattle?
jMr. Booz. I do not know much about Bair's cattle. 1 have just
rode through them.
Senator Lane. Do 3^ou know anything about Dana?
Mr. Booz. I do not knoAv anything about Dana. I do not think
he has but yerj few cattle — some scattering cattle.
Senator Lane. Do they lease or are they sublessees?
Mr. Booz. They have got a pretty good pasture that Dana has
used ever since he built it. I do not know whether he has subleased
or how he gets it.
Senator Lane. What does he do with it?
Mr. Booz. I do not know.
Senator Lane. Are there any ex-employees of the reserve who are
now on allotments on the reserve; do you know?
JMr. Booz. Well, I could not say they are on them, but have them
rented. Miller's brother — Miller used to be a clerk there — is holding
a place. I have been told he owns it; I never saw the deed or patent
papers or anything like that, but he claims it.
Senator Lane. Do the Indians claim these other allotments?
Mr. Booz. I could not say.
Senator Lane. Has the agent got any lands on the reserve?
Mr. Booz. I could not sa_Y; I never saw the papers.
Mrs. Grey. Has not Eeynolds got a place? You have been on his
place ?
ivir. Booz. I do not know whether he has or not; I never saw his
papers.
Mrs. Grey. You know where he lives on the reservation?
Mr. Booz. Yes.
Mrs. Grey. He lives there, does he not, in a house ?
Mr. Booz. I could not say that he owned it ; he might be leasing it.
Senator Lane. Are there any of these grazing allotments under
the ditch so that they could be watered — anv of this grazing land?
Mr. Booz. That Miller owns?
Senator Lane. Yes; or anybody else.
. Mr. Booz. It is all under the ditch out of the Little Horn; it is
between the Little Horn and the ditch. It is all under the ditch.
Senator Lane. Do you know what men there are getting water out
of the ditch?
Mr. Booz. Joe Boyd and Miller and the Throssel outfit.
Senator Lane. Do you know what they paid for the water?
Mr. Booz. Mo, sir; I do not.
Senator Lane. Are any Indians getting water there?
jSIr. Booz. David SteAvart, a half-breed, farms about 25 or 30
acres of the watered land.
Senator Lane. Do you know anything about a sluice built near Lee
Simonsons's. for turning water out of the river?
Mr. Booz. I just saw it passing by.
Senator Lane. Is there one there?
Mr. I'ooz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. What does it do — turn water out of the ditch into
the river?
Mr. Booz. I jnst saw it.
CROW INDIA^ KESERVATION. 1981
Senator La>;k. Did you know why it was put in?
Mr. Booz. To turn water out of the ditch.
Senator LA^-E. Is that shiice so you could see it olf some distance?
Mr. Booz. Oh, yes.
Senator Laise. How many of the Indians get water off of the
reservation, do 3'ou know?
Mr. Booz. I could not sa3^
Senator Lane. Do you know a man by the name of .Mike Pfeifer?
Mr. Booz. I should say I do.
Senator Lane. Did he use to work for you {
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. What is his business?
Mr. Booz. Drinking whisky, most of the time.
Senator Lane. What is he doing now?
Mr. Booz. He is on the reservation.
Senator Lane. Is he a good farmer?
Mr. Booz. I fired him ; I did not give him tiuie.
Senator Lane. Is he farming now on the reservation?
Mr. Booz. I do not know whether he is or not. He was bcfoi-e I
hired him. I had the two brothers of them. They were both
farmers on the reservation.
Senator Lane. Is Inspector Campbell a sober and industrious citi-
zen or is he a drinking man?
Mr. Booz. He might be when he w^as not in towu. I never saw
him in town but when he was pretty well loaded up.
Senator Lane. Was he in town often?
Mr. Booz. In town every time I aui there. Init that is not very
often.
Senator Lane. He is a drinking man — -what is known as a " booze
fighter " out in that country ?
Mr. Booz. That is what he is considered — one of the best friends
the saloon has.
Senator Lane. What does Schraeder do on the reservation?
Mr. Booz. Rests most of the time when I have seen him.
Senator Lane. What is his position?
Mr. Booz. He is boss farmer, or supposed to be.
Senator Lane. Do you know Burbank?
Mr. Booz. Yes.
Senator Lane. What does he do?
Mr. Booz, Lays around the agency is all I ever saw hini (h>.
Senator Lane. Wliat is his official position ?
Mr. Booz. Boss farmer.
Senator Lane. Do you ever see Dave Stewart riding the line?
Mr. Booz. I never saw Dave Stewart until last -unuuer riding tlic
line; that was the first time. I went by his house one day and he was
at the house, and I says, "Hello, Dave; what are you doing? " He
says, "I have got a Government job." I said, "Is that so?" He
said, "Yes; it pays prettv good. Me and Scott is niighly go.Hl
friends now." I said, "Do you think you will hold it?" He sai< .
"I don't know. I am all right." I said, "What doing? " He sjii.l.
" I am riding the line up there." I .^^aid, " I have never seen you at
my camp." He said, "I seen you going backwards and forwards.
I saw vou ffoinir across with a stallion once. " I said. " ^^ by didn t
1982 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
you come to see whether I had stolen him or not?" He said, "I
don't know." That is his answer. He saw me, but I never saw him
on the line.
Senator Lane. He probably sees you first ?
Mr. Booz. Yes.
Senator Lane. What do you know about Ed Wolf Lays Down?
What caused his death?
Mr. Booz. Ed Wolf Lays Down was a mighty god man, and he
said to me : '' John, why don't you come over here and lease some of
our land along Lodge Grass, along the mountains, so you will have
a place to stop with your cattle and horses?. I have logs, and you
can build a house and have the use of it, if you will put up the
house." I said, I didn't think that would be fair. " Frank Henry
is over here with his outfit and you better rent it to him." He said:
'• He won't pay us nothing for our allotments and we are not getting
nothing for them. You rent it." I said : " The agent would not
let me have it." He said: '' It is ours, and it looks like we ought to
do what we please with it." That was along late in the summer,
and that fall I went down in Georgia, and when I came back the
next spring I saw Ed and he says : '' Why didn't you come back to
see about the allotment? We had it all arranged for you to rent a
lot of our land along the mountains u]) there above the rim rock,
where Heinrich kept winter pasture." I said : " I don't know.
Henrv will pay you." He said : " ^o ; he don't. We will rent it to
somebody, if we have to get sheep in there." I said : " Don't spoil
the country with sheep. This is all the country left for cattle, right
in here on the reservation." He said : " We had all lined up to let
you have it, and the agent said to bring you. and fully fence our
allotments, and you could have it." I went off to Georgia, and T
said no more to them about it, and that was the last I said anything
to Ed. and the next thing I heard was that he died mighty sudden.
Senator Lane. That did not kill him, did it?
Mr. Booz. I do not know. He died down in the reservation, near
Lodge Grass.
Mrs. Grey. What kind of rumors were there about his deatli?
Mr. Booz. The rumors Avere that he was poisoned.
Senator Lane. What for.
Mr. Booz. I could not say; I do not know.
Senator Lane. For putting on sheep ^
Mr. Booz. I do not know. He was a mighty infiuential Indian
and had lots of sense and tried to run his business, and he was an
Indian who could get along with white men. negroes, or anybody else,
because he would hold his own with them.
Senator Lane. Was that the little Dillon girl you were speaking
about a while ago that drank too much milk?
Mr. Booz. I did not say the milk killed her.
Senator Lane. Did Mrs. Dillon send for the doctor?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane, And did he refuse to come or not?
Mi-. Hooz. Mrs. Dillon said he had a white lady he had to wait on
in Wyola.
Senator Lane. And he did not come to see her when she was sick?
Mr. Booz. The doctor did not come at the time, but he come later,
and the child was gasping its last when he got there.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1983
Senator Lane. How far was it from the doctor's office'
Mr. Booz. About 3 or 4 miles down to AVyola— from tlu- du(i„r-s
office. His office was in Crow Agencv. It was Wvola w iiere lie was
attending on the lady; was between 4 and r> miles. '
Senator Lane. Yes; but to the Indian girl (
Mr. Booz. Down to the agencv whciv he lived it was lT) or 30
miles, I guess — to the Crow Agency.
Senator Lane. Have the Dillons" aiiv land f
Mr. Booz. They say they have not any.
Senator Lane. Have they any means 'of su|)i)ort (
Mr. Booz. Only working by the day's worU.
Senator Lane. Are they full-blood Indians'^
Mr. Booz. No; Mrs. Di'llon is a half-breed, and 1 could n<.t say
how much Indian there is in her husband.
Senator Lane. Are there many Crows in the vaiiie condition '.
Mr. Booz. Quite a lot of them.
Senator Lane. Would it be possible for an Indian who had no
land under his control to take care of his stock under present con-
ditions ?
Mr. Booz. No, sir.
Senator Lane. Do you know anything about a l»ig >hii)mcnl of
horses belonging to the Crows made a while back (
Mr. Booz. It was made quite a while back.
Senator Lane. How long ago was that (
Mr. Booz. Oh, let us see — it must have been 1.") years ago.
Senator Lane. As much as that I
Mr. Booz. Yes.
Senator Lane. What did they sell for, do you remember^
Mr. Booz. No, sir; I do not. but I heard they brought less than a
dollar apiece — a dollar a head.
Senator Lane. Apiece?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. What did you get for yours;"
Mr. Booz. I shipped two loads, ami my horses brought $70 a iiead.
Senator Lane. Ahead ^
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Were they as good horses as yours C
Mr. Booz. They claimed they picked the best liorscs on tlw rc-ei\:i-
tion. I did not see them : I could not say.
Senator Lane. You do not know about it '.
Mr. Booz. No.
Senator Lane. Did vou see anv ol' ileinrich's lirand on iIiom*
''I D" stock?
Mr. Booz. Yes. sii-: horses and cattle.
Senator Lane. Why do the Indians prefer to sell to somebo«ly
near by rather than to ship them (
Mr. Booz. You Avant me to exi)lain ^
Senator Lane. Yes; go ahead.
Mr. Booz. I had $r)0 in cash, and I laid it over here | dlu>tratingb
I said : " Here is a note for $1,000. I will lay that here." There were
quite a crowd of them and thev could not talk very good Knglish.
I said: ''I will give you this bill. $:)0 cash, or I wdl give you tins
note for $1,000. and vou can get it in six months. It is just as good
as this bill six months from now. Which will you takeT' Kvery
1984 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
one said, " I will take the $50." I said, " Now, why is that? " They
replied, " We know we get the $50 and we do not know whether we
are going to get this note or not."
Senator Lane. A "bird in hand"?
Mr. Booz. They were the average of the Crow Tribe. They said :
" The white men will tell ns one thing to-day and do another to-
morrow, and that is why Ave have not got any confidence in any of
you. Booz, you are pretty good ; we can eat with you. but maybe
you have some object in feeding us."
Senator Lane. Do they ever ship yearling Indian stock olf the
reservation 't
Mr. Booz. I saw a bunch of them shipped three years ago the 28th
of last x\ugust.
Senator Lane. What was the object of shipping yearling stock?
Mr. Booz. To keep them from eating the Indian grass is the only
reason I could see.
Senator Lane. They would not get as mi'.ch for them as if they
had kept them until 3 years old ?
Mr. Booz. A yearling 3 years old would bring, last spring 5i cents
and weigh 600; keep him until he was 4 years old and he would
weigh 1,400 and bring T^ or 8 cents. Mine brought 8 cents. That
is last December.
Senator Lane. Have you ever tried to lease Indian allotments?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Have you ever succeeded in doing it?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. How many times?
Mr. Booz. I leased allotments on Clarks Fork on the ceded strip.
Senator Lane. What did you pay for it ?
Mr. Booz. I paid $1.50 apiece.
Senator Lane. Did you employ the Indian?
Mr. Booz. No, sir ; I put up the hay myself. Do you want to ask
me what become of the hay allotments?
Senator Lane. Yes.
Mr. Booz. Edwards and Campbell and the clique run me off.
Senator Lane. How did they do that?
Mr. Booz. Campbell come over with the police and said, " John,
you didn't get your allotments according to law. You have no right
to put cattle on there. You went to the agent and got Edwards and
got an agreement to lease those allotments, and if he did not, you
could not have got them." I said, " I paid the Indians and they have
the check to show for it." He said, "• Now, I am going to put your
cattle out of there." I said, " Campbell, they are there. Go ahead,
but I forbid you putting them cattle out of there." He said, " What
will you do to the police if they put them out? " I said, '" I won't do
nothing, but I will bring something to you and Edwards. I will
bring a civil suit against you to see if you can do that." He said,
"John, don't let us fuss. Let them stay, and we will try and fix it some
way." They did not want the pasture, but they did not want the
cattle started in on the reservation where the sheep were. The sheep
and the cattle men never agreed verj^ well. So they sent an old
fellow up there with two bands of sheep to put in on the allotments
to eat the grass, and I forbid him putting them on there. I said, " I
will throw your herd over the bank and tr}- to drown them if you
CBOW IKDIAX RESERVATION. 19g5
ever put them on '" I went to Blair and said. - Dmi't put them sheep
m I dont want a fuss. He said, - Col. Waters is eoniinjr .ip there
and maybe you and hmi can settle it." So Col. AVaters come tip and
says, Booz we don t Avant any fussing about allotments. I have -„t
them through Charley Bair. He says you are a prettv white-headed
man. 1 don t know whether you are or not. Can "we ai-raii'^e in
some way so I can buy that hav and put them in there ' '* I said •' I
will sell vou the hay and get out rather than fnss with von" He
said, ^-What will you take foi- the havT' I had ai)()ut COO <,r TOO
tons of hay. I said, "I will take $5 for the hav. And he sai-l " 1
would give $3.50 for part of it over on the white man's land."
The Indian hay I had put up mvself. So, he said. " I am going
up town, and when I come back by here I will see voii." and wliile
he was gone I had a boy who was working for me scribble a note and
sign it by somebody that they want the hav and wouhl give $5,
pasture and all; and the sheepman come back, and he said.'"" Booz,'
what about the hay? " I said. "I can sell it to some sheepmen up
toward Absarokee;" and I had gone to bed, and the note was laying
on the table, and I lit the lamp, and Col. Waters came in and picked
up the note and put on his glasses. He said, "I will take all that
hay and the pasture and clean you out on the allotments." I said,
" That is a deal." He said, '' I will give you something down. How-
will $100 do? " I said, " I will want $500." He gave me a check for
$500, and I caught the train the next morning and went down and
got my $500, and he tried to back out. I had his $500, and I said,
"You can take the hay or keep off of the allotments." So he paid
me, and that settled that trouble. This particular troulde over here
with the hay on this side is the second trouble, and if I get out of this
I guarantee you fellows in Washington I will never get into more
trouble.
Senator Lane. What do the Indians get for the allotments when
included in the big leases?
Mr. Booz. They do not get anything I have heard of. They have
complained a whole lot about that. I have got -100 acres leased from
a lady in Sheridan. I gave her $350 there mighty near adjoining
the reservation, and it will run 100 for seven months in the year. I'^or
instance, I have got 1,080 acres of land riglit there adjoining the
reservation. It cost me $27 an acre. I put $1,000 worth of improve-
ments on it. You can figure up the interest on the money. I coidd
go over and lease the allotments and buy the hay and run my cattle on
these allotments cheaper than I can own the land, and the Indian
will have his money, and he will have a living and I will Inne fat
cattle.
Senator Lane. Is there any good lumber timi)er on the rc>ei\ at ion *
Mr. Booz. Fine.
Senator Lane. What is paid for lumber by the agency people?
Do they cut any of it ?
Mr. Booz. No; there is no sawmill up where I am.
Senator Lane. What do thev have to pay for lumber^
Mr. Booz. I think I paid, for just common rought Inmber. y^-2i\ or
$27 a thousand.
Senator Lane. They have no way of cutting it. howevei- .
Mr. Booz. The Indians?
Senator Lane. The Indians or the Government.
1986 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION,
Mr. Booz. There is no sawmill there. They could put in a sawmill
and saw it mighty reasonably.
Senator Lane. Would that be an advantage to the Indians on the
reserve ?
Mr. Booz. A wondei-fid advantage.
Senator Lane. It would cost a good deal to put in a mill?
Mr. Booz. Oh. no. I spoke of putting in a mill on my side, and I
figured with sawmill men, and they said I could put in a good mill
at that time that would saw all the lumber I possibly needed at be-
tween $800 and $1,000.
Senator Lane. One of these portable mills {
Mr. Booz. A small mill.
Mr. Sloan. I would like to get an idea of what becomes of the hay,
if the foreigners are not permitted to feed on it?
Senator Lane. What does become of that hay?
Mr. Booz. Mine is standing there and rotting down, because Frank
Heinrich and his brother and his men have fought this — the father
of the breeds and his daughters' children — they have fought him ever
since he has been there. He is a shrewd cowman and horseman, and
they have had it in for him ever since he moved on the reservation,
and they will not bu^^ his hay.
Senator Lane. Who is this. Peters?
Mr. Booz. Peters.
Senator Lane. Do they have grudges there that they hold against
them ?
Mr. Booz. They have grudges at quite a number. Tom Doyles' hay
standing there, a big lot; I think he has quite a lot; I could not say
how much of it.
Senator Lane. Doyle?
Mr. Booz. Yes. I guess they have got him where he won't need
any hay.
Senator Lane. Is there a grudge against Doyle?
Mr. Booz. It seems so.
Senator Lane. On the part of whom?
Mr. Booz. I do not know. They had him in jail several times,
and had him in trouble, and he took a little whisky — his father was
an old soldier, and he took some whisky up there on Christmas, and
they all had a Christmas frolic, and they went up and got him.
Senator Lane. It is against the law to take whisky on the reserva-
tion?
Mr. Booz. It is for an Indian: a white man can take it.
Senator Lane. Any white man?
Mr. Booz. I have the awfullest time with my cowpunchers, when
they come up there hunting, to keep them sober. In one instance,
they had a 5-gallon keg fastened on the Avagon with a band around
it, with a spout run out here [illustrating], with a tin cup attached
with a chain, and a card here [illustrating], "Free to everybody,"
right on the reservation.
Senator Lane. Who sold it?
Mr. Booz. They purchased that as they came uj).
Senator Lane. Is there discriminaticm that way in favor of some?
Mr. Booz. If I would get drunk — they would catch me drunk — I
think I would serve a term in the pen. They seem to have a grudge
against some.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1987
Senator Lane. Are you bad when you are drunk?
Mr. Booz. I never get drunk.
Senator Lane. You would probably be a wvy bad man
Mr. Booz. As for proving this, this keg looked like a .-.-gallon
keg, but It might have been n gallons. 1 might have had teare in
my eyes because I could not get at it.
Eepresentative Stephens. Do you think it would be a good idea
to fire the agent and divide all this land up among the Indians and
turn them loose?
Ml. Booz. If you did, you would see a inightv healthy lot of
Indians.
Representative Stephens. We see yourself and those other lease
men having so much money.
Mr. Booz. I am Avilling to split mine in two if they will make the
others do the same.
Representative Stephens. Would not that be the best solution
of it?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir. And I tell you they will take care of them-
selves. You give an Indian his allotments and his rights and ho
will take care of himself. He is now too scared to do that. He can
not even carry a gun, because he is afraid somebody is g;)ing to l)lanie
him with trying to kill a beef. Whenever you put a reward on any-
body's scalp, to get it, it makes trouble. I was right in the heart of
the Johnson war.
Representative Stephens. How long have you been among those
Indians out there?
Mr. Booz. Twenty-one j^ears.
Representative Stephens. It is your idea the}' Avill do much better
turned loose without an agent or supervision ?
Mr. Booz. If you would put in an Indian's agent instead of a
white man's agent, the Indians would be all right.
Representative Stephens. Would they be competent to select their
own agent and own employees?
INIr, Booz. They say every man has got his price.
Representative Stephens. Do you think the Indian's price is
higher than the white man's price?
Mr. Booz. He has got more money.
Representative Stephens. They could not do any worse than the
white men are doing?
Mr. Booz. How could they?
Representative Stephens. The Indians have not got anything,
and it is getting worse all the time.
Mr. Booz. They have not got anything, and it is getting worse
all the time.
Representative Stephens. It is about time to quit supervising, is
it not?
Mr. Booz. Give them the money that it takes to run the Indian
Department and see where they come out; that is, our Crows; I
could not say about the others.' The Crows are naturally n smart
people. I can not cheat them: they can cheat me. If tiiov have a
ponv that is not anv account, thoy will turn him out until he gets
big 'and fat and bring him over to me and skin me. I never trade
with them. I have learned to let them alone.
35601 — PT ] 5—14 1 2
1.988 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Mrs. GiJEr. Mr. Booz, do you think those Indians, if they were
permitted, would choose a good man?
Mr. Booz. I would think so. I would think to put it to a vote
before the Indians and let them vote on it that they would have the
right man.
Mrs. Grey. They could select a good man ?
Mr. Booz. Give them the privilege, and when they caught him
doing anything that was not suitable, they would say, " You are not
working to our interests; we will just let you go."
Senator Lane. If there is anything else you want to tell us, we
will be glad to hear your.
Mr. Booz. As I have told you, there is Lady Grey, who has been
fierfectly straight in all her dealings, and she has slept with the
ndians and ate with them in their tepees. They always fix her a
nice bed. She knows about how the Indians are treated.
Gentlemen, I have as good teams as men ever drew a rein over
and as good a cook as ever rolled a biscuit. If any AVashington
man comes to me, or any four of you, I will guarantee to feed 3'ou
on trout and let you eat chicken, and take you over the reservation,
and I can show you the grass that I have, which my cattle are forbid
to eat after my paying $15,333, and there has not been a thing on it
for three years, 1,000 acres of it.
Senator Lane. Did Bostwick and his outfit bring that whislcy
on that you told about?
Mr. Booz. Not only Bostwick, but the outfit from Billings; the
fellows were all Elks and sports, and of course they were up there
for a time. They got my men drunk.
Senator Lane. Were they fishing and hunting?
Mr. Booz. They Avere hunting.
Senator Lane. What kind of game is there in there?
Mr. Booz. Prairie chickens, grouse, and sage hens.
Mrs. Grey. Was Mr. Abbott ever along with them when they
were up there?
Mr. Booz. I never recollect seeing Mr. Abbott.
!Mrs. Grey. You heard of him being up there?
Mr. Booz. Oh, yes; he spent sevei-al weeks out there.
Representative Stephens. Did Mr. Abbott approve of those
leases ?
INIr. Booz. I could not say; I suppose so.
Mrs. Grey. Yes; he did.
(The commission thereupon proceeded to the consideration of
other business.)
MARCH 31, 1914.
Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs,
Washington^ D. C.
The joint commission met in its office, room 128, in the Senate
Office Building, at 8 o'clock p. m.
Present: Senators Robinson (chairman) and Lane.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1989
TESTIMONY OF WENDELL M. REED, CHIEF INSPECTOR OF IRRL
GATION OF THE INDIAN SERVICE.
(The witness was dul}- sworn by the chairman.)
The Chairman. State your name, the ollicial position vou occupv
and how long yon have held it. '
Mr. Reed. I am chief inspector of irrigation of the Indian Service
and have been so since September, 191-2.
Senator LA^'E. What were you doing before that? Were vou in
the Indian Service?
:Mr. Reed. No, sir; I was in the Reclamation Service for 10 years.
Senator Lane. You have heard some talk about this subject of
irrigation in the committee hearings. Do you know anvthing about
the irrigation Avork on the Crow Reservation?
INIr. Reed. About the irrigation work; yes.
Senator Lane. Have you had charge of it?
JNIr. Reed. Recently — general supervision since I came in.
Senator Lane. Is that a reimbursable appropriation?
Mr. Reed. It comes from the funds of the Crow Indians.
Senator Lane. And it is reimbursable?
Mr. Reed. It is reimbursable to the Government; yes.
Senator Lane. You have had experience in this line of work be-
fore 3'ou entered the Indian Service?
JNIr. Reed. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Are joii a civil-service employee?
Mr. Reed. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. When were vou covered into the civil sernce?
Mr. Reed. About 1903 or 1904.
Senator Lane. You have been personally in charge of irrigation
on the Crow Reservation?
]\fr. Reed. No, sir; not personally in charge, but general super-
vision.
Senator Lane. Wlio has personal charge?
Mr. Reed. INIr. John Lewis had personal charge until about a
year ago, I believe. I would have to look up the records to be ac-
curate; and then INIr. Clvde LcAvis since that.
Senator Lane. And you have been attending closely to the Crow
work. Have vou been "disbursing the moneys there?
Mr. Reed. Oh, no. My work pertains to the whole West.
Senator Lane. A^Hio does the disbursing on the Crow Reservation!
Mr. Reed. The superintendent. Mr. Scott.
Senator Lane. Do you employ the people who work on the
proiects?
INIr. Reed. No, sir.
Senator Lane. ^V[\o does that?
Mr. Reed. ]\Ir. Scott.
Senator Lane. He is the agent?
Mr. Reed. He is the superintendent ; yes, sir.
Senator Lane. There are some things about a certain map here
which we do not understand. Did you prepare a map of the irri-
gation projects on the Crow Reservation? »„,, ^^
Mr. Reed. No. sir. The maps are prepared in the field. An> re-
cent map would have been prei)ared by Mr Lewis.
Senator Lane. Would it be countersigned by youY
1990 CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Mr. Eeed. The plans of work are approved by me; not all the
maps.
Senator Lane. Do you ever check them up to see whether they are
rirrht or not?
Mr. Eeed. The structural plans ; yes, sir.
Senator Lane. I mean the maps.
Mr. Reed. No ; I have not.
Senator Lane. You certify to them as being correct without check-
ing them off ^
Mr. Eeed. As to the maps?
Senator Lane. Yes.
Mr. Eeed. I do not know that I have ever approved a map in that
way. I do not recall it.
Senator Lane. You have naturally to depend on those under you
anyhow ?
Mr. Eeed. Oh, yes ; because I am not familiar enough with the de-
tailed surveys to lay them out.
Senator Lane. No; I presume not; you could not be. I have a
map here that we got a hold of some time ago. We discovered it
in hunting up some allotments and ditches, and we could not make
out what it was. I wish you would look at that map and see if j^ou
are familiar Avith it [exhibiting blue-print map to the witness].
Mr. Eeed. That is drawn by Mr. Lewis evidently from its date.
Senator Lane. It bears the inscription " W. M. Eeed, chief engi-
neer"?
Mr. Eeed. It is not a signature.
Senator Lane. No; it is not a signature, but it is charged up to you.
Mr. Eeed. As under my general supervision.
Senator Lane. But that is the map showing the irrigation scheme
of that reservation, is it?
Mr. Eeed. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. And that is supposed to be a true outline of it?
Mr. Eeed. Approximately; yes.
Senator Lane. So that a person could take that map and go out
and identify the projects?
]Mr. I>EED. I could.
Senator Lane. I mean anyone.
Mrs. Grey. You have been on the Crow Eeservation?
Mr. Eeed. Yes ; I have been over most of that.
Senator Lane. Does it show all the irrigation plans and establish
the contemplated projects on the reservation?
Mr. Eeed. I believe so.
Senator Lane. It is marked there that it does.
Mr. Eeed. Eeferring to this coloring, the red is the area where
earthwork and structures are completed on main canal and laterals,
and the yellow gives the different stages of construction.
Senator Lane. That is what I supposed.
ISlr. Eeed. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Will you point out on this map what work you
are now engaged ui^on there, from the color scheme?
Mr. Eeed. At the present moment there is only being done some
work over here [indicating] on the Big Horn. It is repair work,
not new work, and then I think there are three flumes, and I guess
CKOW INDIAN RESERVATION, 1991
the last one is completed by this time on the Big I loin (\nial: then
at the agency dam— that was put in last winter.
Senator Lane. What was the object of that?
Mr. Keed. It was removed a year ago bv Hood.
Senator Lane. Freshet repair work^
Mr. Keed. Yes; it was reconstruction.
Senator Lane. How much of a crew have you on this work?
Mr. Keed. We have had doing this work (juite a construction crew.
For a short time there were employed on that dam as higii as 100
men.
Senator Lane. Who were they; Indians?
Mr. Reed. Not many Indians.
Senator Lane. Why not Indians?
Mr. Keed. They do not want to or would not woi-k on the struc-
tural work, which was done in the winter time; and niv reports are
that they did not care to take hold of that kind of work!
Senator Lane. What do you mean by '"structural"?
Mr. Keed. It is a concrete dam.
Senator Lane. Do they understand that kind of work?
Mr. Keed. Some of them do quite well. AVe have had some of
them on such work who did quite well.
Senator Lane. Are they pretty good workers?
Mr. Keed. Tliev vary like all humanity: some good ones and some
bad. ' '
Senator Lane. Were there some Cree Indians at work on this
dam?
Mr. Keed. I understand there have been a few Crees. I do not
see the pay roll and do not know the personnel of all the forces, but
I have understood from time to time there have been a few Crees in
there. There are a few^ of those Indians in the country.
Senator Lane. Why would they employ Crees in preference to
Crow Indians? The Crees do not belong on that reserve, do they?
Mr. Reed. No.
Senator Lane. Do they emplo}^ outside Indians to woik on the
reserve ?
Mr. Keed. No; not as a rule. It is not the intention. Sometimes
they employ them as they had to at this dam, wiiere they had to
take anybody they could "^get. Labor was scarce foi- a little while,
and the.y had to take anybody.
Senator Lane. Is it not true that the Crows object to having Cives
working on this project, and that it has been a cause of dissatisfac-
tion ?
Mr. Keed. I have heard it was.
Senator Lane. And the Crows protested against it. Why would
they do this, and in spite of the protest of the Indians whose reserva-
tion it was and whose land the project is to irrigate employ a hostde
band? They were alwavs hostile Indians.
Mr. Reed." As I understand the situation from those in charge,
there was not recently many Crees— possibly two or three, although
I do not remember of noticing any or hearing them mention any
names— but the Crows, for some reason, did not take kindly to that
work in the water. I was there on the ground at the time.
Senator Lane. They did not want to ^et their leet wet?
Mr. Reed. I do not know as I blame them much.
1992 CROW INDIAN EESEEVATION.
Senator Lane. About how many Crow Indians did you have work-
ing there last summer?
Mr. IvEED. I was there in ApriL We had a band then over on the
Big Horn. So, I could not say; it was a big camp; there must have
been 30 or 40 workmen in there.
Senator Lane. That was last spring ?
Mr. Reed. Yes.
Senator Lane. They were willing to work in the spring, but not
the fall or winter?
Mr. Reed. They hauled the sand and gravel; they did that; they
worked on the dry ground all right.
Senator Lane. Was not that a time when they should have been
working on their farms?
JNlr. Reed. Well, this was in the early spring. They could perhaps
have been plowing some, but it was before the season really opened.
Senator Lane. Do you keep water tables to show what water is
used and who uses it ?
Mr. Reed. No; that has not been worked out on that reservation
yet. There is a table of the flow in the canal, but the measurement
to the individuals has not been defined yet.
Senator Lane. You do not know how many Indians you turned
on for?
JNIr. Reed. I could tell at the office, but I can not tell here; I am
not familiar with the names.
Senator Lane. Has there been any complaint in regard to the
amount of water they get or about discrimination on the part of the
Indians?
Mr. Reed. You mean discrimination one against the other?
Senator Lane. Yes; or as against Avhites or anybody else.
Mr. Reed. No ; I do not think there is between whites. There have
been some recent requests, or statements and requests, for more water
on what is known as the Reno ditch?
Senator Lane. Which is the Reno ditch?
Mr. Reed. The Reno ditch is over on the Little Big Horn.
Senator Lane. Is it on this map ?
Mr. Reed. Yes; right here [indicating].
Senator Lane. There was water turned on for those Indians?
Mr. Reed. The history of that ditch is this: That is the oldest
ditch on the reservation. It was built when the troops were in there
and built under Army regulations, and it has grown up and filled up,
and the structures have become bad. I am having a history of that
ditch prepared now, but it is perhaps 25 or 30 years o^ i.
Senator Lane. How many acres does this cover, do you know?
Mr. Reed. Oh, there are several thousand acres it covers, but very
feAv hundred that it irrigates.
Senator Lane. Is that mostly in the hands of the Indians or white?
Mr. Reed, It is mostly in the hands of the Indians. I think there
is some leased land, but I am not sure whether that is leased from an
Indian or not. I do not have charge of that. I believe there are a
couple of .Taps leasing some land.
Senator Lane. Japs?
Mr. Reed. Yes.
Senator Lane. I had not heard of that. Is there not a good part
of this irrigated land leased to white men throughout the reserve?
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1993
Mr. Reed. No.
Senator Lane. Do you know what rent they pay for irrigated
Mr. Reed. No, I do not; that does not come under mv jurisdirtion
at all.
Senator Lane. Are there white men who own land under the
projects?
Mr. Reed. A few.
Senator Lane, How many do you suppose?
Mr. Reed. Oh, I could not say.
Senator Lane. Do you know what water ri<;hts they Inive?
Mr. Reed. That is a peculiar condition there.
Senator Lane. In what way?
;Mr. Reed. Up to the present time there has been no charpe to white
men on account of maintenance or operation.
Senator Lane. Why?
;Mr. Reed. Under the conditions, the work that has been put on main-
tenance has really gone as a charge against the project, and white men
who happened to be fortunate enough to get in there and get some of
that Indian land have, to the best of my knowledge. ne\ (m- had to pay
any maintenance or operation fees.
Senator Lane. Do you know whether the Indians have complained
about that?
Mr. Reed. No; I do not Imow that I heard the Indians complain,
but I discovered this, in studying the situation.
Senator Lane. AVhy should that condition exist? Is there a law
to that effect, or has it gone by laches?
Mr. Reed. There is no lavr against it, I guess.
Senator Lane. It has merely been suffered?
Mr. Reed. Yes; that is the condition not only there, but it is a con-
dition that has prevailed and a condition that the present adminis-
tration is trying to get out of.
Senator Lane. Was it not the agent's duty to see that that condi-
tion did not exist?
Mr. Reed. There is no law at the present time for making those col-
lections. Somebody should have seen it and called attention to it and
had a law passed or a rule or regulation fornudated. I am not sure
that it could not be controlled, perhaps, through the bureau or
through the Secretary of the Intel ioi.
Senator Lane. Thev have absolute control of it?
Mr. Reed. I am not sure whether they can collect or not under the
present law, but we hope to have a law that will not only allov l)ut
make it absolutely necessary. , ^ > ♦!
Senator Lane. "Where is the record of those cases kept wIum.' the
white men use the watei- without paying any maintenance charge, do
•"^^'inREED. I do not know that there is anv clear and precise record
It is all, vou might sav. tied up in the dilTerent laws and .lifreront
regulations that have been passed f r< ni time to time.
Senator Lane. This maintenance does cost something .Ines it
Mr. Reed. Oh, sure.
Senator Lane. And the Indian pays for it ^
Mr. Reed. Undoubtedly. That ha., been a p.int ^ ;=>t ^^^ \'^<^
past to have been overlooked by the Indian Office-tl.at tlu- m nntc-
nance and operation cost anything. They fre.,nently nuule lea.^s
1994 CEOW INDIAN EESEKVATION.
and attached to them "* with free water right." 1 took the position
in a memorandum, very early in the game, tliat there was net any
such a thing as free water right, and that somebody had to pay it.
Senator Lake, Are there any of these white men who have taken
out ditches and run them across the Indian land ?
Mr. Reed. I believe in the upper end, away over in here [indicat-
ing] somewhere, there are some private ditches, which I discovered
hist year myself. This is tlie Little Bighorn. There are some up
in here made by Spear, I think, the cattleman. I never met the man.
1 discovered this ditch from the railroad, wherever it is.
Senator Lane. He was taking water out of the Indian ditch to
run across his land?
Mrs. Grey. All of these [indicating] and two or three in here.
Mr. Reed. What Avas the question?
Senator Lais:e. I asked you if this white man was not taking this
water from the Indians' irrigation ditch and running it across the
Indians' lands and using the w^ater to irrigate lands of his own?
Mr. Reed. He is taking it from the creek and crossing Indian
lands.
Senator Lane. That is what I am told, Mr. Reed. You have no
authority to put a stop to that at all, have you ?
Mr. Reed. No, sir.
Senator Lane. The Indians complain about this.
Mr. Reed. The jurisdiction there is entirely within the superin-
tendent.
Senator Lane. This commission is proceeding without prejudice
in this matter. We are not trying to find am^body guilty nor pun-
ish any enemies or reward any friends. At the same time, there are
complaints coming in. It is the hope of the commission to find out
what are the actual conditions. If the conditions are right, it is
hoped to approve them. We are merely hunting this information
without prejudice. I want you to understand that.
The Chairman. Why is it that no maintenance charges are made
against the lands or the users of the lands on this reservation, do
you know?
Mr. Reed. No. The charges are not made, and the matter was
brought to the attenticn of the office some time ago, and it is now
being considered. You will note there is a bill or amendment in
which allows the Secretary to apportion maintenance and operation
charges to those receiving the benefits.
The Chairman. Do you know whether the bureau takes the view
that it has no power to prescribe the maintenance charge?
Mr. Reed. It has seemed to feel that way in the past.
The Chairman. On many of the reservations a maintenance charge
is prescribed?
Mr. Reed. Yes; that is ti'ue.
Senator Lane. Is that under special legislation or under the gen-
eral law?
Mr. Reed. Usually by special legislation. That is permissible on
the Yakima, permissible on the Fort Hall Agency. A charge is made
to the whites on Uintah, and, I think, that is about all, as I remem-
ber it.
The Chairman. Do you remember about how long this system of
requiring the Indians to pay the maintenance expense, the benefits
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1995
of which have been enjoyed by white men. has prevailed on these
various reservations?
Mr. Reed. On the Crow ever since there was a ditch and since tliere
was a white man to take advantage of it.
The Chairman. Do you know of any theorv on which that kind of
practice can be justified?
Mr. Reed. It is not a practice that is used an v where else that I
know or.
The Chairman. Do you know of anv theorv on which that kind of
practice can be justified?
Mr. Reed. No; not to benefit the white man who has purchased in
here. The theory that has. been advanced bv some for not makin'»
a specific charge against the individual, where it is an Indian, is tha't
it is still tribal to that extent; that they are all being benefited, and
therefore it could come out of their joint funds.
The Chairman. Of course, that is not true on many reservations,
because on most of the reservations a few Indians enjoy the benefits
actually, and it is so manifestly unfair to me that I am reallv look-
ing for some theorv on which it could have been justificMl i)v any
fair-minded man. That is what I really want to know. It seems to
me there must have been some theory in the minds of those who have
practiced it and permitted it to go on indefinitely. It would be bad
enough to require you to pay for benefits that' I enjoy : it is bad
enough to require the tribe to pay for benefits that particular Indians
enjoy, but it is absolutely indefensible, in morals or law or upon any
other theory I can comprehend, to require a tribe of Indians to pay
for benefits which are enjoyed bv white persons.
Mr. Reed. I agree with you perfectly on that.
The Chairman. Can you tell me about how many reservations this
practice has been going on besides the Crow?
Mr. Reed. That is perhaps the most flagrant case.
The Chairman. I have not found anybody else that could justify
it or that even sought to justify it. But what I am looking for now
is to find how such a thing ever grew up, how it ever could be perpet-
uated for any considerable length of time, and why it was, if you
please, that neither the bureau nor Congress have taken steps to
correct it.
Mr. Reed. Well. I can not tell you. T know that it is one of the
first conditions that attracted my attention.
Senator Lane. Did you report or pr(>test against it i
Mr. Reed. There are numercus menirrandinns in there, and I wdl
say that we are moving toward something.
The Chairman. When did y<.u begin making that inovi-m.-nl m
the bureau? .,
Mr. Reed. About a year ago. Not much was done, liowi'ver. until
soon after Mr. Sells came in. I do not know what called it to his
attention, whether he had found a memorandum or not. but it was
soon after he came in when I arrived from the field and ho called
me in and asked me about this, and I gave him a verbal statement
of the conditions— not specific, becau.se I did not have details at t uit
moment before me. He asked me then to make a report. an(l I dul,
showing the various reservations that had taUen any notice of main-
tenance and operation, and the rest were in the other class.
1996 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
The Chairman. Can you furnish, supplemental to your remarks
ard to be attached to them, so that we may print, that statement
which you furnished the commissioner, or will you ask him to send
it down to me?
Mr. Reed. I am goinji" away to-morrow.
The Chairman, I will do it then.
Mr. Reed. If you ask him, I think he will be glad to give it to you.
The Chairman. When did you furnish him that, Mr. Reed; do
you know?
Mr. Reed. Let us see; I should judge it was in July or August.
The Chairman. Of last year?
Mr. Reed. Yes.
The Chairman. When did you file the first memorandum in the
bureau in the nature of a protest against this, or suggest the correc-
tion as to this method of requiring the maintenance charges to be
paid out of the Indian tribal funds for the benefit of white persons?
Mr. Reed. I would not call it a " protest." It was more of a memo-
randum calling attention to it. It was in the winter, a year ago?
The Chairman. Winter of 1912-13?
Mr. Reed. Yes.
The Chairman. And how long have you been in charge of this
service ?
Mr. Reed. I came in in the September before.
The Chair:man. So that within a few months after you took charge
of the service you did that?
Mr. Reed. As soon as I commenced to find these conditions.
The Chairman. As scon as you found these conditions you called
attention of the Indian Bureau to it, and nothing was done until
after Mr. Sells took charge, and then he called you in and you made
a verbal statement, and the bureau then began to consider the correc-
tion of those conditions?
Mr, Reed. There was nothing done. I had two or three conversa-
tions with Mr. Abbott on the matter.
The Chairman. AVhen he was acting commissioner?
Mr. Reed. Yes; when he was acting commissioner.
The Chairman. What did he do about it?
Mr. Reed. I do not know that he did anything positively. We dis-
cussed it several times, and he finally agreed to my position, that
there should be charged maintenance and operation, and that those
receiving the benefits should pay for it.
Senator Lane. AVho was in charge of this w-ork before you went in,
do you know?
Mr. Reed. There was a blank space in there for something over a
vear — Mr. Code.
The Chairman. William H. Code, now of Los Angeles?
Mr. Reed. Yes. I think he had resigned and had been out some-
thing over a year.
Senator Lane. How long had he been in charge of the work?
Mr. Reed. Several years; I do not know.
Senator Lane. Would he have known of this in the ordinary
routine of his duty?
Mr. Reed. Yes. To explain that, I do not think perhaps he could
have changed it, more than called attention to it, because when the
engineering work was done the jurisdiction was really in the hands
; f the superintendent on the ground.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 1997
The Chairman But if it had been called to the attention of the
Commissioner of Indian Atlaiis he would suielv have directed the
nipenntendents to make a more e(|uitable and just aiTan-t-URMit than
that, Avould he not? Ot course, that is merely a matter of opinion,
but IS It not what anybody would have done? ' I am still lookin-r for
tome reason or justihcation for this process. I want to know iFvoii
can tell me, on what theory it was permitted to continue for u ino-
ment. It is so manifestly unjust and unfair to the Indian that I can
not understand how that kind of condition could have prevailed
AVhat is the total area of irrigated lands or land under irri'mtion
by these projects? "
Mr. Eeed. You mean actually under ir ligation or possible of irri-
gation?
The Chairman. Actually under irrigation.
Mr. Reed. Somewhere, if I remember, around 18,000 or 19,000.
I do not want to go on record as to that.
The Chairman. Acres?
Mr. Reed. Yes.
The Chairman. Going back to this method of assessing mainte-
nance charges against the tribal funds, the construction charges are
also payable out of the tribal funds, I take it ?
Mr. Reed. Yes.
The CHAiR:\rAN. So that no matter now much land is used by the
whites, the Indian pays for the construction of his irrigation works
and for the maintenance of the irrigation charges?
^Ir. Reed. I think there might be some excuse for that theory,
because I think when they started construction and began this work
that there was no white land; if there Avas, it was such a small quan-
tity that it might have been overlooked.
The Chairman. How much land is now owned or controlled bv
white persons within this 18,000, approximately, acres?
Mr. Reed. I can not tell you. I have tliat in the office, and if I
had known what I was being called here for I would have brought
you the data.
The CHAiR:NtAN. I have been so busy myself that I did not have
the opportunity of taking it up with you. I have been working since
9 o'clock this morning without a moment's intermission.
Mr. Reed, I did not know what I was coming for.
The Chairman. You have that information?
Mr. Reed. That w^as in my annual report.
The Chairman. Is that a reimbursable fund out of which these
works are constructed and maintained? ^^ ^
Mr. Reed. Yes; it all comes out of the Indian uioney. ^ The dov-
ernment appropriates it, but it comes out of the Indians' funds de-
rived from leases and everything else.
The Chairman. You are sure about that?
Mr. Reed. I think that is so.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, is it not payable out of the
individual Indians' fund on the Crow? , r i i *
Mr. Reed. I think not. I think it comes from the fmuls that are
accumulated as tribal funds. I do not see how it could be applied
from individual funds in that way. , , , , v .
The Chairman. I am not asking you how it could be done. 1 ou
have not been able to explain to me how this other thing could be
done, but it is done.
1998 CKOW INDIAN R?:SERVATION,
Mr. Reed. It is done, but I think the auditing clerk would catch
the other.
The Chairiman. The auditing clerk for what?
Mr. Reed. The auditing department Avould be apt to catch any use
of individual funds. I do not disburse that money, but I understand
at least that it comes
The Ciiair:man (interposing). From the tribal fund, and is a re-
imbursable fund or appropriation. Do you know what the irrigation
works that have been constructed on the Crow Reservation have cost
the Indians?
Mr. Reed. That is all in the same report, right up to the 30th day
of June.
Tlie Chairman. Of this last year?
Mr. Reed. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Have there been any extensive works constructed
since tlien ?
Mr. Reed. Since the 30th of June?
The CHAiR:\rAN. Since you made your report.
Mr. Reed. This dnm that Avas Avashed out has been put in.
The CHAiR:\rAN. AVhat did that cost, approximately?
Mr. Reed. Probably $20,000. _
The Chair^fan. That was paid out of the tribal fund?
Mr. Reed. Out of the same funds. Then the repair work is all
out of the same fund.
The Chairiman. Is the irrigation work on Crow all under one sys-
tem. Mr. Reed, or how many systems are there?
Mr. Reed. Oh. numerous. There are the two or three small sys-
tems over on the Little Bighorn: then there is the svstem on the
Bighorn, which is not only the diversion from the Bighorn itself,
but from tributaries; and then away over here [indicating on msip],
in the extreme Avest end, is another system. I have not visited that
exti-eme west end yet.
The Chairman. What is that w^est end system called, or how would
you designate it; do you know?
Mr. Reed. I think it has the name right on it in the map — Pryor.
The Chairman. What area is irrigated under that; I mean already
under irrigation ?
Mr. Reed. I can not remember it, and not having been there I can
not eA^en guess it. That is in the same annual report.
The Chairiman. What is the total area of lands that can be irri-
gated undei" all of the systems on the Crow ReserA'ation ?
Mr. Reed. If I remember rightly now. it is between 70.000 and
75,000 that is possible of irrigation.
The Chairman. Does you report shoAv tlie area of these lands that
are in the possession of the whites and that are in the possession of
the Indians?
Mr. Reed. It shoAvs the area cultivated by Avhites and culliAuted by
Indians.
The Chairman. Are any of these lands patented to a Avhite person?
Mr. Reed. I think so. I think they are purchases from heirship
lands.
The Chairman. Do you kuoAv Avhat area belongs to that class?
Mr. Reed. No.
CKOW INDIAN KESERVATION. 1999
The Chairman. What will it cost to complete these several systems
on the Crow Keservation, do you know ^
Mr. Reed. The systems are mostly completed. I have that over
there at the office, but I can not tell you. 'I'liere is something on the
Little Horn that is to be done yet; the Bijriu.rn is aimosrwh(,lly
reconstruction. This, you see. was built 20 rears ago and built of
wood, and not used and kept up to the condition it ought to be; it is
decaying and the work there is aimo-t all reconstruction. There is
some new construction there on the Little Bighorn.
The Chairman. When did the construction of irrigation worlcs
on the Crow Reservation begins
Mr. Reed. A little over 20 years ago, except lor the Reno Ditch,
which was put in by the soldiers when they were in there.
The Chairman. Do your records show, or do ytui know personally,
whether the Crows in their tribal council approved these con.-truc-
tions cr whether the bureau put them in without regard to the views
of the Indians themselves^
Mr. Reed. I do not know. I loiow now that last fall when I was
there the branch known as the Reno Indians lived up uiuler this
Reno Ditch. They came in and in a small council requested that
further work be done on their ditch, but the rest was away before
my day. As I say, I am having a history of this ditch prepareil,
and I may be able to find a great deal of this data you are asking
for and I hope to have it.
Senator Lane. What did they say was the reason for wanting this
work done on Reno?
Mr. Reed. They wanted to improve their lands. The old ditch
was not giving full service.
Mrs. Grey. Was not a sluice built on the ditch and they were losing
Avater rights, and was net that the reason they asked it i
Mr. Reed. I do not believe they mentioned water rights. They
did mention the fact that they wanted to improve the lands and raise
more products. The ditch at the pre-ent time is more of a sluice-
way than an3^thing else, in some phices.
Senator Lane. Did somebody but in a special sluiceway to conduct
the water away from the Indians?
Mr. Reed. No: not in there. There is a ditch, but I do not know
whether you would call it a wasteway.
Senator Lane. They call that a wing dam.
Mr. Reed. Every ditch must have some waste.
Senator Lane. A wing dam would tuin the water oflf so that they
could get it over onto the white man's land?
Mr. Reed. If that condition exists, I do not know it: it may.
Senator Lane. That is Avhat we are told.
Mr. Reed. They did not mention it in their talk with me. They
did not call attention even to that.
Senator Lane. Do you know Avhether tliat was in the nature of
a head gate, a gate for turning the water out of the Indians* ditch
and away from their irrigated lands, so that it would carry by and
go somewhere else onto the white man's land?
Mr. Reed. I do not remember it that way. Any sluiceway is for
the purpose of getting rid of the waste water: to take it up near
the supply it is not needed.
2000 GKOW INDIAN EESEEVATION.
Senator Lane. This would take all the water at a diversion gate?
Mr. Reed. That could be done on the ditch at the present time in
two or three places.
Senator Lane. Has it not been done in one place, where you saw
the construction?
Mr. Reed. At Simonson's.
Senator Lane. Did you notice that? There has been testimony
before this commission that there is such a structure, but whether
it does I do not know, Mrs. Grey or somebody else says it turns
the water way, but we have evidence from others that there is such
a structure, a gate which turns water from the Indians' land and
puts it on the white man's land.
Mrs. Grey. Puts it back into the ditches; that is the course of
water that the Indians want.
Mr. Reed. The ditch at the present time, as we get lower down,
would not give any service, anyway.
Senator Lane. It would give less if the water was turned out
near the head?
Mr. Reed. Sure, if the required amount of water was not there.
Mrs. Grey. Did not the Indians ask the agent to let them turn
it out onto the land and explain that they were willing to clean the
ditch themselves?
Mr. Reed. I do not Imow.
Mrs. Grey. Tliey did, and he would not permit them to do it.
It is now called a " projected project."
The Chairman. AVhat is called a "projected project"?
Mrs. Grey. This old project, by putting the sluiceway in and
turning the water back into the river.
Mr. Reed. The ditch was first built by the Army officers. I do
not know which one you have reference to. I have been pretty
well around Reno.
Mrs. Grey. Right at Reno, on the road.
Mr. Reed. Oh, yes; I know where it is.
Senator Lane. It appears they are turning the water off there and
using it on the white man's land, and keeping it from going below,
for the reason that they divert it and let it go back into the river,
without letting the Indians use it, and they are now going ahead
and rebuilding the ditch.
Mrs. Grey. There is not enough water in the Little Big Horn to
put water into the new projects; they are now putting water wholly
on the white man's land, so thpy are killing the old ditch that watered
the Indians' land.
By putting in the sluiceway they are turning the water out of the
Indian ditch back into the river about 10 miles from the head gate.
The Chairman. How long is that sluiceway?
Mrs. Grey. About as wide as that table [indicating the commission
table] and extends across the river.
The CiiAiRiMAN. And cuts the water out of the Indian ditch and
runs it back into the river, and farther down the river it is taken out
and diverted on the white man's land?
Mrs. Grey. Down here; this is the place it is going to be put
[indicating on map].
Mr. Reed. The Reno is away down here. This is the Reno [indi-
cating] .
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2001
Mrs. Grey. All out of the Little Bighorn Kiver
Mr. Reed. This is the Crow Agency here. This is the Keno ditch
coming in here, about there |indicating|.
The Chairman. AVhat is the capacity of that stream— how nuich
water i
Mr. Eeed. Oh it is a flood stream. It gets low and it gets higli.
I do not know the maximum capacity, but I have seen it down as
low, I should say, at the agency, as 100 second- feet.
Mrs. Grey. There was almost no water in it in Sei)tember.
Mr. Eeed. And the maximum is all over the country.
The Chairman. Do you know the Two Leggins ditch?
Mr. Eeed. Yes.
The Chairman. Who built that (
Mr. Eeed. The Two Leggins ditch was built by a corporation.
The Chairman. AVhat corporation^
Mr. Eeed. I have been writing that name so many times 1 (jught
to remember it— it is the Two Leggins Ditch Co.
The Chairman. Did it have a right of way?
Mr. Reed. I think not, to start with.
The Chairman. Has it now?
Mr. Eeed. I think so.
The Chairman. How did it get it?
Mr. Eeed. By a contract with the bureau in which they bought an
interest in the ditch.
The Chairman. The bureau bought an interest?
Mr. Eeed. For the Indian land to be served by it; yes.
The Chair3ian. Was that after you were in charge of the .service?
Mr. Eeed. That contract was up and had been executed, but I
believe had not been paid for, when I came in, because I remember
that is one of the first things I ran against.
The Chairman. Did you approve it?
Mr. Eeed. It was already approved; it was just a matter of getting
the mone}' then.
The Chairman. Do you know whether or not the former ciiief
clerk, Mr. Miller, became the manager of that ditch before it had
been approved — the ditch running through the 34 miles of Indian
land?
Mr. Eeed. No ; I do not.
The Chairman. Do you know Mr. F. E. Miller?
Mr. Eeed. I met a man in Hardin by the name of Miller, and I
presume that is his initials. They said he was formerly employed in
the Indian Service.
The Chairman. You do not know whether he took charge of that
ditch before it had been approved as to its right of way?
Mr. Reed. No; I do not. That is a matter, I suppose, of record.
The Chairman. Do you know who estimated and paid the dam-
ages for the right of way on account of this— Mr. Miller is still in
charge of that ditch, I believe.
Mr. Reed. I do not know who is manager of the ditch. Ihc clitcn
has been turned over to the water holdeis imder it. That is com-
pleted now, but I do not know who is their local inanagor.
The Chairman. I think my question is misleading. I tlunU he is
not now in charge. t u- i
Mr. Reed. He is now a county officer, I think.
2002 CROW INDIAN EESERVATION.
The Chairman, Or United States commissioner and a dealer in
Indian lands.
Mr. Reed. I remember, now. I believe he is a county officer, but I
have not seen him but once. " »
The Chairman. When the Two Leggins ditch was turned over
to the white and Indian landowners, the whites employed a man by
the name of Nolan to look after their interests against the company?
Mr. Reed. A lawyer?
The Chairman. I do not know whether he is a lawyer or not.
Mrs. Grey. Yes. a lawyer; a partner of Senator Walsh.
The Chairman. Did the Indians have anybody to look after their
interests ?
Mr. Reed. Do you mean
The Chairman (interposing). Any attorney?
Mr. Reed. I think not.
The Chairman. Have you a recorded table of water rights of the
Indians who have acquired water rights under this Two Leggins
ditch ?
Mr. Reed. There is a list, I believe, in the office.
The Chairinian. Is it recorded ?
Mr. Reed. You mean in the county offices there ?
The Chairman. Yes; and in the bureau?
Mr. Reed. Oh, it is a matter of record in the Indian Bureau.
The Chairman. Do not they require that that be recorded before
they attach the lands?
Mr. Reed. That would be recorded as ditch interests, but whether
the individual piece of land would be recorded I am not sure, but if
that law is the same as some of the old laws it would not be necessary
if the ditch company had applied for certain waters and stipulated
(he areaAvhich it was to cover, then it would not be necessary for the
individual to come in again. I do not know that that is the law, but I
know that that is the i:)ractice or was the practice a few years ago in
some of the Western States.
The Chairman. Nearly all of the States require some sort of rec-
ord to be made, so as to enable the public, as well as the parties inter-
ested, to ascertain just w^hat the water rights are.
Mr. Reed. Oh, yes; and more especially now in the last few years.
The Chairman. Was there an appropriation made to buy water
for these Indian lands?
Mr. Reed. I think the money has been paid.
The Chairman. How mnch money was used in this way?
Mr. Reed. I think the amount was $12.50 an acre, but I do not
remember the acreage.
The Chairman. How do you determine how much shall be paid —
by the water actually put on the land, or is it estimated for by the
people who are connected with the Two Leggins ditch?
Mr. Reed. As a rule, a water right carries with it a minimum use
of water — that is, that it shall be not less than a certain amount fur-
nished, and frequently not more; that is, in acre-feet.
The Chairman. How much do they pay for it there; do you Imow?
Mr. Rred. I think they intend to give there 3 acre-feet per acre.
I believe that was the intention, and their water rights cost $12.50
an acre. Of course there will be a maintenance expense, which will
be pro ndn of the general upkeep.
CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2003
Mrs. Grey. A large portion of that land does not get water and
can not get water. It is impossible that it ever can. l-ut I am told
they are pajdng for the water nevertheless.
The Chairman. Paying for the water they do not get^
Mrs. Grey. That they do not get and can not get.
Mr. Eeed. They have paid for the water right.
The Chairman. They have a water right and do not get water?
Mr. Reed. I do not know whetiier they are asking for it. I could
not say as to that. The superintendent could tell you more about
that than I can; but I know there is a large area o/ Indian land in
cultivation over there, but nowhere near the amount of water right
held. That may not be altogether the fault of the ditch; it may be
the fault of the people who use it. Some of that land is inherited
and is not leased or no one to farm it.
The Chairman. Is there a ditch known as the "Farmers' ditch"?
Mr. Reed. Yes.
The Chairman. Has it a right of way'^
Mr. Reed. That was up not long ago. I think in one sense it has
and in another it has not. I believe the owners of the Farmers'
ditch agreed with the various individual Indians that they could
apply to make it a right of way, but it would liave to be api)roved
by the office, and I think it is not
The Chairman (interposing). Xot approved^
Mr. Reed. Yes.
The Chairman. What had the Farmers' Ditch Co. asked for
water ; do you laiow ?
Mr. Reed. $7, I believe.
Mrs. Grey. As against the other one. $12.
Mr. Reed. $12.
Mrs. Grey. And they give more water, do they not?
Mr. Reed. They shall measure out a certain amount; I think so.
The Chair3ian. Would it be cheaper and better for them to take
water from that ditch, those that lie under it?
Mr. Reed. There is a large portion that can not get it. of course.
Mrs. Grey. The Two Leggins ditch runs a long distance. The
Farmers' ditch comes down here [indicating]. They are going to
take the water out of the Two Leggins ditch, carry it over the
Farmers' ditch, 5 miles from the Two Leggins ditch, and put it
onto this land at a cost of $12 an acre, besides this expensive work,
whereas they could get it for $7 by taking it from the Farmers' ilitch.
The Chairman. Is that correct?
Mr. Reed. No, sir; there has been no agreeuicnt at all. Thei-e
are about three propositions up before the office of water right for
additional land. I can tell it to you, because I read it over re-
centlv. The Farmers' Ditch Co.— I do not remeuiber what they
call themselves— agree to sell their water at $7 an acre for the
land that can be served by their ditch. There is another ditch far-
ther down. Thev agree to sell their water for a small amount— M'
acres, I believe^at $12 an acre. The Two Leggms agree to si- 1
for all the land, because thev are the highest up and can soj-ve it all,
at $12 an acre; or if thev onlv sell for that portion wluch is ahove
the other ditches, and can be served only by them, 5^2.) an acre.
35601— PT 15—14 13
2004 CEOW INDIAN BESERVATION,
Those propositions stand before the office to-day, and have not had
action.
The Chaikman. Have the Farmers' Ditch Co. made an offer to
the department, through you, to furnish water to these lands?
Mr. Eeed. No; not through me. Naturally it would not come
through me. They made it right straight to the commissioner.
The Chairman. To the commissioner himself?
Mr. Reed. Yes.
The Chairman. Have you been called upon to report upon their
offer or to investigate it?
Mr. Reed. Yes.
The Chairman. Have you made a report?
Mr. Reed. Not since they made their last offer; no.
The Chairman. Do you know when their last offer was made?
Mr. Reed. The man was here not long ago.
The Chairman. Recently?
Mr. Reed. Yes.
The Chairman. How is the Two Leggins ditch constructed?
Mr. Reed. It is constructed of concrete, with wooden gates.
Mrs. Grey. Is there any concvete in the Two Leggins ditch?
Mr. Reed. Oh, yes.
Mrs. Grey. Have you seen it?
Mr. Reed. I saw it less than a year ago.
Mrs. Grey. There was not any in it in September when I saw it.
Mr. Reed. It is a very good structure. I can not conceive it going
out except by dynamite. Then there is a revetment toward the
river, made w^ith the use of sacks filled with sand or gravel.
Mrs. Grey. That is to keep the bank from washing out?
Mr. Reed. Yes.
Mrs. Grey. The whole force of the river is right toward the head
gate, and there would be nothing to prevent it going out if they
had not built the bridge there.
Mr. Reed. It is held in place. The head gate is in a good place.
It would not be sufficiently protected if in a bad place.
The Chairman, Do you laiow of the bridge that is built acros.«i
the Bighorn?
Mr. Reed. Yes.
The Chairman. Was that built to accommodate the Indians or to
protect the Two Leggins headgate?
Mr. Reed. I do not know. It was there when I came on to the job.
The Chairman. Do you know how long it has been there?
Mr. Reed. Why, not long. I should judge three or four years.
The Chairman. What does it accomplish?
Mr. Reed. It does accomplish this, that it connects the two sides
of the Bighorn during high water, an undertaking which is highly
commendable. Whether or not it is in the exact location it ought to
be, I am not prepared to say, but that they do get a connection across
and a bridge across that river I do not think anybody will dispute.
The Chairman. Will there have to be a bridge near Hardin?
Mr. Reed. I should think so. We can say this: This serves those
Indians living on the Bighorn. They can come down and get
into Hardin that way. But the Indian who happens to live on the
Little Bighorn is up against the proposition of having to go a good
many miles out of his way to get across.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2005
Mrs. Grey. How about the people of Hardin?
Mr. Reed. Well, they will have to stay at home
Mrs. Grey. The fact is, Senator liobeinson, here is Hardin and
nflinnm% ff^T'? ^indicating]. There was an appn.priation
of $10,000 from the Indians and $10,000 from the pecple of each of
the two aajoming counties. They supposed the bridge wo.dd be
built at Hardin where it would accommodate everybody Instead of
that it was built 8 miles above so that the abutment exactly prutects
the Two Leggms ditch. Charley Bair, who was the Kepublican
boss, said— and the word went out— it " went there or went nowhere."
I have some photographs of it that I will put in.
The Chairman. Under what project is the Reynolds, Miller, and
Throssel land?
Mr. Reed. Reynolds is away up on the Little Bighorn.
The Chairman. Is it a fact that the agent, chief clerk, property
clerk, and assistant property clerk, when that ditch was projected,
are now interested in the ditch ?
Mrs. Grey. And own the land.
The Chairman. And own the land?
Mr. Reed. I know Reynolds. I met him. He owns some land, I
understand. I am not familiar with the title of the lands. I have
understood a man by the name of Miller owns some land.
Mrs. Grey. You know Throssel ? He is the property clerk.
Mr. Reed. I Icnow a Throssel.
Mrs. Grey. You know Dick Throssel. He is assistant property
clerk.
Mr. Reed. No; I do not know but one Throssel. I do not know
whether that is Dick or not.
Mrs. Grey. There are two of them.
The Chairman. What about the construction work on that project
as compared with the others on the reservation ?
Mr. Reed. In what way ? Is it good or bad ?
The Chair3Ian. Yes; compared with the others.
Mr. Reed. It is newer, and the newer work is really better than
the old Avork, I believe.
Mrs. Grey, Is it not the only construction on the Crow Reservation
that is built of concrete?
Mr. Reed. You might say the whole system. This system is mod-
ern and up to date; but this can be said of the old system — that at
the time that was built they were not using concrete.
Mrs. Grey. There was no concrete used or in use excepting on th\a
land that is now used by the employees who were in control wiion tlio
ditch was projected.
The Chairman. How long since it was projected?
Mrs. Grey. In 1909, 1 think.
The Chairman. Recently, comparatively.
Mrs. Grey. Yes. You see, it is not completed.
The Chairman. What Indians get water under that canal, if any f
Mr. Reed. That I could not tell you without taking tlio records
of the office. , ... ,
Mrs. Grey. As you drive along the road you see this long canal
One of those flumes, a beautiful piece of concrete, a splendid puve of
work, lies like this [indicating] . Here is Throssel s land. Reynolds a
2006 CROW INDIAN EESERVATION.
fence runs like this along the end, and there, right exactly at the end
of his fence, is the end of the construction ; the same on the other end
where Throssel's land is.
The Chairman. The benefit of that ditch has gone to the whites.
Senator Lane. Who has paid for it ?
Mrs. Grey. All the Indians have paid for it. It was formerly
allotted to other Indians, and the Indian allotments were canceled
while Reynolds was agent.
The Chairman. How long ago was that ?
Mrs. Grey. The cancellation was made in 1906 or 1907.
The Chairman. You were not in the service then?
Mr. Reed. No.
The Chairman. Do you know what Reynolds pays for his water
right?
Mr. Reed. I think he is like all the rest. No one has paid anything
for water right or maintenance.
The Chairman. What is his business now on the reservation?
Mr. Reed. The only business I know of is a trading store.
Mrs. Grey. Is he not buying hay?
Mr. Reed. He is farming.
The Chairman. Do you know the Red Wolf land ?
Mr. Reed. No ; I do not laiow it by that name.
The Chairman. You do not know that has been mired with waste
water from the Throssel ditch?
Mr. Reed. No; I do not know.
Mrs. Grey. There has been a great deal of complaint.
Senator Lane. Is there any land you have noted in that con-
dition ?
Mr. Reed. It would be a remarkable irrigation system that there
were not some land that way.
The Chairman. How much land have those employees and ex-
employees under that ditch?
Mr. Reed. I have not the least idea. This ditch was projected and
the only thing I have had to do with it since I came on was, instead
of using old lumber that would rot out in about seven years, I put in
a little better stuff.
Mrs. Grey. It is a beautiful structure ; I have never seen a finer one.
The Chairman. What is the size of the irrigated allotment on
Crow Reservation?
Mr. Reed. The land actually allotted or the allotment?
The Chairman. The allotment.
Mr. Reed. If I remember rightly, most of their allotments are 160
acres.
Mrs. Grey. They were 160, but they have been canceled and made
80 acres, and I want to know by what authority ?
The Chairman. Wlien was that?
Mrs. Grey. That is what I am working on to find out. The act
was passed about 1910, but the cancellation occurred long before
that. And then I think that the act compels them when they cancel
Indian allotments to pny the Indian for the land that they take from
him. That has never been done on Crow.
The Chairman. It was done under authority of an act of Con-
gress ?
CROW INDIAN RESEBVATION. 2007
Mrs Grey. The authority for doing so was not procnwod for cer-
tainly four or five years after the cancellation. It was done before I
went there.
The Chairman What is the Bi^ Horn Improvement Co.? Is
that a project on the Crow Reservation?
Mr Reed. There is some company, and I believe that is tlie name,
that has been in correspondence with the oflic-e in re«rard to a power
•and irrigation scheme. There was a report made upon that before
1 came m. I never had occasion to make any report on it I can tell
you their scheme in a moment. As I understand their plan it is to
put m a high dam al)ove what we call the Bigliorn Dam now And
raise this water and also developing power.
The Chairman. Have they any land along the canal thev propose
to build?
Mr. Reed. I do not know they have anything anvwhere.
The Chairman. They have no wate'- rights in the river anywhere
above ?
Mr. Reed. No; I think not.
Mrs. Grey. The right of way was approved.
The Chairman. When was that done?
Mr. Reed. Xo; I think not.
Mrs. Grey. They were surveying when I was there.
Mr. Reed. They were given authority to go on and siirxey, but
there has nothing been approved. I am pretty confident about that.
The Chairman. Is there an extensive water power to be devel-
oped by the plans of this company?
Mr. Reed. That is a question. A few years ago they made sur-
veys in there, and their report was kind of a straddle.
ISIrs. Grey. This present survey is really a resurrection of the old
survey. They are establishing the old survey.
Mr. Reed. What survey is that?
Mrs. Grey. The survey made about 1906.
Mr. Reed. Well, they did not ask for that; maybe they are
doing it.
Mrs. Grey. I was up and watched them; that is exactly what they
are doing.
The Chairman. Their project hag not been approved (
Mr. Reed. No, sir.
The Chairman. Will it be submitted to you for approval?
Mr. Reed. I think it will. I think it is more of a promotion
scheme, perhaps, than anything else as yet.
The Chairman. To whom would the water power belong if they
were permitted to cany out their scheme?
Mr. Reed. It would have to be a concession by the Indians and
the Indian department in order to put the power into use.
The Chairman. The Indians have not consented^
Mr. Reed. Not that I have ever heard of.
Mrs. Grey. Thev have objected very vigorously. It is the old
flaw. AMien I first went there they wei-e ti-ying to lease Crow Res-
ervation for 25 vears to the beet -sugar people, and that is where I
got into mv trouljle. This is the same old plan, and the same i)e<|plo.
The Chairman. It is perfectly apparent that, taking the whole
course of the matter from 20 years ago down to the present, that it
has not been handled directly in the interest of the Indians there,
2008 CROW INDIAN EESERVATION.
has it? You would not say that the trusteeship of the Government
had been administered with diligence under all the circumstances.
Is it necessary to have legislation to protect the rights of these In-
dians and to prevent them from being deprived of water rights they
have acquired, or has the bureau power to do that under existing
law?
Mr. Reed. I think there is very little danger of loss of water
right, even without any legislation. It may come to the time, and *
it would not be bad to have the clause put in that was put in several
of the bills, because farther up on the Bighorn, in Wyoming— the
Bighorn, Big Wind, Little Wind, Shoshone, and a few others —
the}' are constantly increasing their appropriations even to the extent
of a large storage proposition, and probably would have been able
to finance it if it had not been for that failure of the Pittsburgh
bank during last year.
The Chairmax. That will undoubtedly go into the bill, and, of
course, it is subject to a point of order. The Indian Affairs Com-
mittee of the Senate, I am sure, will put that provision in the bill,
but will it be necessary also to have legislation to readjust those
maintenance charges so as to make people who are actually bene-
fited pay a fair maintenance charge — or can the department do that
without legislation?
Mr. Eeed. That is a matter of law which I do not feel competent
to pass upon, but I will say this, that it should be accomplished if it
requires legislation.
The Chairman. Is there i\nj authority now in the bureau to con-
trol the amount of water that may be taken out of the Big Horn
River and the Little Horn River by diversion through the ditches
controlled by the white people?
]Mr. Reed. I think not. I think the control of the waters, especially
of those taken outside of the reservation, is entirely in the hands of
the State.
Mrs. Grey. Both of those you referred to are on the reservation
and they are Indian lands.
Mr. Reed. The Two Leggins is nov*' on the ceded portion.
Mrs. Grey. This is the Two Leggins land right in there [indi-
cating] ?
Mr. Reed. Yes.
Mrs. Grey. Hardin is on the reservation.
Mr. Reed. It is on the ceded portion.
Mrs. Grey. No, sir; it is not. It was dead allotments and sold.
It is all on the reservation.
Mr. Reed. That is a matter of law.
The Chairman. I realize that is a matter of law that would per-
haps be for someone else to determine, but I thought perhaps you
had a theory.
JMr. Reed. I could give my ideas.
The CiiAiRTvrAN. I would be very glad to have them, not as govern-
ing consideration, but with a view of throwing light on it.
Mr. Reed. I believe a ditch, like the Two Leggins, that takes out
below the appropriations of the Indians, that by beneficial use they
will acquire right to that Avater to so much as they do beneficially
use. The same would apply in any other place where it did not con-
flict Avith Indian rights. There is some decision bv the courts, such
CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2009
as the Winter's decision, that protects the Indians to a greater extent
than the white man, but to what extent and how far lliat can bo
invoked is a question that is bevond me.
Senator Lane You remember those allotments we were lookinc
for? lou would know about that?
Mr Reed. I would say here that I would not know so much about
the allotments. If you would give it to me in sections we could
find it.
Mrs. Grey. This is what we were working on. We found Indian
allotments here [indicating].
Mr. Reed. On Pass Creek?
Mrs. Grey. Yes; and up in this portion, and other places, too,
were leased for less to white men than what would be the cost of
maintenance, and it is irrigated land and they are getting the water.
The Chairman. Indians Avere paying for the maintenance?
Mrs. Grey. Yes.
The Chairman. What are they leased for?
Mrs. Grey. Some of them as low as 15 and 20 cents an ar-ro.
The Chairman. What area is rentec} that low?
Mrs. Grey. I have not traced it all out. There is nothing on the
lease to show. I have to take the leases and trace out tlie locations.
I examined particularly this portion up here [indicating] and this
portion here. I do not believe those Indians are using any water.
I do not knoAV of a single Indian getting water on the Crow Res-
ervation as he wants it.
The Chairman. Do you know of any using water on the rci^erva-
tion?
Mr. Reed. Yes.
Mrs. Grey. Could you give the names of any?
Mr. Reed. No ; but I could take you to the places.
The Chairman. How many are there?
Mr. Reed. There are quite a few scattering Indian.- over on the
Big Horn. They are not using it to the extent I should like to see
them.
The Chairman. Have you any idea about how many?
ISIr. Reed. Oh, there are not many.
Mrs. Grey. You can not name five on the reser\ation.
Mr. Reed. I can not name any, because I do not know the Indians.
I go by land: that is all.
The CHAiR:\rAN. Could you give me an idea about how many you
think are using water?
Mr. Reed. Several hundred acres. I could give it better to you in
acres.
The Chairman. How many aci-es, then?
Mr. Reed. Oh, several hundred.
The Chairman. That is ]^i-etty indefinite.
.Mr. Reed. Up to a thousand.
Ihc Chairman. Several thousand?
Mv. Reed. Oh, no, no.
The Chairman. Up to a thousand?
Mr. Reed. Yes. I have the farmers' records on that. 1 woiihi not
sav from my own records. I have been getting this data all (og.-t her.
I am trying to find out mvself where we are. and I iiav.. t<. g.-t tins
information from anv source po.ssible. and I can gn- •» <•• v""- "^
2010 CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION,
it can be obtained from the office if you will ask the coinmissioner,
as to the amount of land that is being farmed by the ^Yhite men and
the amount of land that is being farmed by the Indians.
The Chairman. All right. We will get that from the bureau.
Mrs. Grey. Have you anything to show when the water is turned
onto the land and when turned off? The Indians can sometimes get
water in July, when their crops are all dead, and I saw one place
where the ditch was dammed right across, up at the old Horn place —
a farmer b}^ the name of Barnett — about a mile and a half from the
agency to the dam.
Mr. Reed. You mean the Reno?
Mrs. Grey. No; on the agency ditch, up in here [indicatiiig on
map].
Mr. Reed. Above, you mean?
Mrs. Grey. Right in here.
Mr. Reed. The canal takes out right there at the agency.
Mrs. Grey. You know where Bompart's place is?
Mr. Reed. I do not know by the name : no.
The Chairman. It is now 9.30. I have a subcommittee of the
Committee on Rivers and Harbors which meets in a few moments,
and Senator Lane is ill. We will not have any further hearings to-
night. I understand there are some others here who would like to be
heard, but we will have to hear them at another time.
The commission will now stand adjourned subject to further call.
(Wliereupon, at 9.30 o'clock p. m., the commission stood adjourned
to meet at the call of the chairman.)
WEDNESDAY, MAY 27, 1914.
Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. G.
The commission being in session in room 128, Senate Office Build-
mg, for the consideration of other matters, proceeded to the considera-
tion of the Crow Indian Agency.
Present: Senator Lane (presiding) and Representatives Stephens
and Burke.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. HELEN PIERCE GREY.
(The witness was duly sworn by Senator Lane.)
Senator Lane. Mrs. Grey, you said that you had some matters
which you wanted to present to this commission. Will you state
what they are and the nature of what you have that you think we
ought to know?
Mrs. Grey. Last August Senator Robinson gave me authority to
go to Crow Reservation, representing certain Crow Indians, and to
investigate certain matters there and report to the commission. Since
that time I have been investigating certain matters on Crow Reserva-
tion with reference to the leases and to the lands, and have also been
working on the accounts rendered by the agent.
Some little time ago — about three months ago — I made a written
statement for the commission with reference to the large leases, and
that I do not suppose you want me to go into to-night. I had in
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2011
mind more especially to go into the curront leases, the two leases that
have been recently made on the reservation.
Senator Lane. All right; whatever you think would interest the
commission.
Mrs. Grey. That is what I thinlv you suggested to do
benator Lane. I did not make any suggestion of that sort I
wanted to know if you had found out what the terms of those leases
were, and if you have I would be very glad to know what they are
Mrs. (jREY. I think the best way to begin is to show vou which
lands the leases cover.
This is a map of the Crow Reservation [referring to map upon
wall of commission room] . There are about 3.000.000 aV-rcs in all in the
reservation. This [indicating] is the Big Horn River, and this is
the Little Bighorn River, and this portion in between the two is
known as No. 5. That has been recently cut down about one-half,
the lessees being moved to the south half and the Indians' cattle being
put to the north half. A fence has been built which comes in just
about here [indicating], crossing over there, cutting this lease in here,
known as No. 5, just about in half.
Li 1910 this entire lease was made to a man by the name of Hein-
rich. Prior to that time he had been running cattle on that range
[indicating] under irregular permits, permits evidently made 1^'-
tween himself and the agent, and for which no accounting was made
to the Indian Office and no record was made. The hearing that was
had before the Senate committee in 1908 brought out the fact that
the^y were paying almost nothing for this land; in fact, the l)est they
could make was $3,000 when the leases were relet in 1910. After this
hearing Heinrich voluntarily made a bid of $14,800 a year on much
less range than he had been paying for prior to that time only $3,000
a year. Since that time he has been occupying this range | indicat-
ing]. He has never paid the full amount, because in one way and
another it has been diminished; and the last time it was let. instead
of being let for the entire range it was stated that the i-ange had been
so overstocked that it would not now cany the nmuber that it had
heretofore, so the number was diminished, and instead of renting l»y
the range the lease w^as let bv the head, and the lessee was to pav
$1.95 a head.
Senator Lane. When was this lease entered into?
Mrs. Grey. This lease was made in 1913.
Senator Lane. For how long a period?
Mrs. Grey. To run three years. The point is that \\hou tlu-y
changed it that there was no provision for consent of Indians at all
on the district. I made a complaint just about three years ago, after
I had been at the reservation, that that A. A. (\ampbell. who wa< the
stock inspector, had testified in the agent's office that thei-e was no
data in the office at all of any description to show how many cattle
or sheep were on this lease or on any part of the reservati(Ui: that
although there were a large number of sheep on the reservation tlmt
Avere paid for by the head, thev did not count sheep because they
were not " stock."" Right along in that line, I find, the office is pre-
paring to cut down this permit at the present tune; the number of
cattle" on that range is estimated in pencil by the lessee himself, no
one else paving any attention to it at all. He just puts in a pencil
statement of the number of cattle that are there.
2012 CROW INDIAN EESEEVATION.
Senator Lane. The estimate, you say, is made by the lessee, and
not by the Government ?
Mrs. Gret. It is made by the lessee himself.
Senator Lane. How do 3^ou know that to be true ?
Mrs. Grey. It is signed by the lessee; it does not purport to be
anything else. One peculiar thing about the statement to be signed —
it is signed at Lodge Grass, you see [exhibiting paper to the com-
mission].
Senator Lane. What document is this?
Mrs. Grey. Document 66990; 1912.
Senator Lane. And this is 1913?
Mrs. Grey. Yes; but this file runs from year to year, and the
statement that I have is dated September 27, 1913.
Senator Lane. Wliat part of the statement?
Mrs. Grey. It is called " Relative to the extension of certain privi-
leges on Crow Reservation."
Senator Lane. Is that an official document belonging to the Indian
Bureau ?
Mrs. Grey. What I am showing you is the official estimate of the
number of cattle on the reservation, as you see.
Senator Lane. I will read [reading] :
Lodge Grass, Septemher 27, 191S.
I hereby certify tbat the following- is a true and correct statement of the
number of cattle and other live stock i^razed on the Crow Reservation under
the terms of the lease covering the territory embraced in grazing districts Nos.
5 and 6, as follows:
Number of cattle on hand Jrji. 1, 1913 (about) 23,000
Number of other live stock on han.d Jan. 1, 1913 250
Number of cattle on hand July 1, 1913 (about) 23, 500
Number of other live stock on hand July 1, 1913 250
Average number of cattle grazed during the 6 months ended July 1, 1913- 23, 250
Average number of other live stock grazed during the 6 months ended
July 1, 1913 250
Kind of live stock other than cattle grazed, horses.
Frank W. Heinrich. Manager.
Subscribed and sworn to befoi-e me this 27th day of September. 19] 3.
William A. Petzeld,
Notary Puhlic, Lodge Grass, Mont.
My commission expires January 29, 1916.
(Above figures and signature of Heinrich in pencil.)
Lodge Grass, Mont., January 26. 191 If.
Dear Mr. Scott : In compliance with your request of recent date that the
office is anxious to collect the lense payments promptly. I inclose checks for the
amounts due. Also statement of the number of cattle ranged on lease No. 5
since the Government has in part revoked this lease. My contract with the
Government called for a maximum average of 23,000 cattle on lease No. 5.
The figures enumerated in the statement are the number of stock that have
been and are ranging on this lease.
Very respectfully,
F. W. Heinrich.
(The above letter in pencil.)
CKOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2013
Lease No. 5.
1913.
On range Feb. 1 to Aug. 1, cattle, 16,240, at S1.95__ sir, cqj .^
On range Feb. 1 to Aug. 1. borses, 250, at $1.95 '^ '-mv' 7^
On range Apr. 1 to Aug. 1, cattle, 5,700. at $1.95-__ -5 7„Vf\o
On range May 1 to Aug. 1, cattle. 1,300, I-"III-I"I1IIII G33! 75
Amount due Aug. 1 "mlTfTnO
Paid 22. 425. 00
Rebate 2, (X)8. 5C
On range Aug. 1 to Oct. 1, borses and cattle, 23,490, at $1.95 7 c'S 2'-.
(Error; $G sbort.) ..u-0.^0
On range Oct. 1 to Feb. 1, borses and cattle, 18,293, at $1.95 11, 890 45
On range Jan. 1 to Feb. 1, calves, 3,200 '520.00
Amount due Feb. 1, 1914 20 (KW 7o
Paid I__II"II 22I 425! 00
Rebate 0, 380. 30
Cattle on band Feb. 1, 1914, loss 493 21,<HK>
Off on feed on average of 3 montbs 0,000
On range Feb. 1 to Aug. 1, 1914, 15,000, at $1.95 14, 625. 00
Additional on range May 1 to Aug. 1, 1914, 6.000, at $1.95 2,925.00
Total 17, 050. (Ml
Less rebate paid F. M. Heinricb 4, 394. 80
Amount due 13, 255. 20
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 2Stb day January, 1914.
W. P. Squires,
'Notary PuUic for the State of Montana,
Residing at Crow Agcncn. Mont.
My commission expires January 25, 1916.
(Note. — The above letter is in pencil.)
Mrs. Grey. Before you go any further I want to show you some-
thing about this. This, ofcourse, is a private paper, or supposed to
be. That is made on Government paper. You see all the estunates
there are just put in lead pencil.
Senator Lane. AVhat is this other paper?
Mrs. Grey. That is the recapitulation.
Senator Lane. Is that to be read?
Mrs. Grey. I am merely showing this to show you how they esti-
mate cattle on Crow Reservation. "This is the only account (here is.
Senator Lane. This is the only account, and it is furnished by the
man himself? . .
Mrs. Grey. It is not verified bv anybody; it is merely accepted
as the final proof of the number of cattle on the reservation.
Senator Lane. What is the payment for that lease, do yon k.iowr
Mrs. Grey. $44,850.
Senator Lane. How much a head?
Mrs. Grey. Afterwards it was made $1.95 a head.
Senator Lane. This was $44,850?
Mrs. Grey. $44,800.
2014 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Senator Lane. On what basis was that made? May be they do
not care anything about the number of cattle. They were charging
him for the number of acres of hxnd at that time?
Mrs. Grey. No; it was merely taken
Senator Lane. You say they were not basing it on the number of
cattle?
Mrs. Grey. No. They let the ranges — such a range was let to the
highest bidder, and he bid so much.
Senator Lane. There was competitive bidding?
Mrs. Geey. There was competitive bidding, but it was not let to
the highest bidder.
Senator Lane. Who was the highest bidder?
Mrs. Grey. The highest bidder was Peter Yegan.
Senator Lane. What did he bid?
Mrs. Grey. It made quite considerably more.
Senator Lane. How do you know that?
Mrs. Grey. The statements are here.
Senator Lane. Was he responsible and reliable?
Mrs. Grey. Oh, yes, indeed; more responsible than the man who
got it.
Senator Lan^e. I do not see that you show that by this statement?
Mrs. Grey. I will read the letter.
[Hamilton, Colbert, Yerkes & Hamilton, attorneys and counselors at law, Union Trust
Building.]
Washington. D. C. September 23, 1909.
The Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. C.
Sir: Keferriiig to tlie umtter of tlie recent lease of districts in tlie Cx'ow
Indian Keservation, State of Montana, for grazing purposes, we desire to file
a protest against tlie .-iwards made by yonr office witli regard to districts Nos.
4 and 5. in said Crow Indian Reservation.
The notice calling for sealeil iiroposals directed that all proposals should be
filed by 2 p. ni., on August 2. 1909, in the Office of the Commissioner of Indian
Affairs, this city.
Various sealed proposals were forwarded to your office, and at the time ap-
pointed the bids were opened in the i)resence of the bidders, and it appeared
that with regard to district No. 4, the bid of Fred Iual)it, who was our client,
was the highest bid. he havhig offered 8 cents an acre for the district, esti-
mated to contain 400,000 acres. The next highest bid was that of C. M. Bair,
who offered 6i cents per acre, with $1,000 additional for construction of
reservoir.
The opening of the bids for district No. 5 disclosed that Christian Yogen,
who was our client, was the highest bidder for the whole of said district, and
that Fr.ink 31. Ileinrieh also fileil a bid for a portion of said district.
At the time the bids were opened the bidders were advised by Mr. Valentine,
acting commissioner, that the bids would be considered and the award prob-
ably made in about a week thereafter, but nothing more was heard by us from
these bids until August 9, when the acting commissioner requested us to obtain
for him information as to Mr. Inabit's experience in dealing with Indians, and
as to his financial responsibility, and that he would have to have such informa-
tion by 12 o'clock on August 11.
On August 11 we were advised by the commissioner's office that the informa-
tion which they had called for on the 9th was not what they desired, but that
they did desire to know how many sheej) 1\Iy. Inabit intended to run on the
range, and that they would have to have that information by the 13th of August.
The proi)osals for bids did not reipiire the bidder to state either the class
of animals he proposed to run on the range, or the number, and in view of the
short time allowed us to obtain the information desired by your office, it had to
be accomplished, if at all, by telegraph.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2016
* . *-■ * ^1 ^ grazing sheep, but did exi)ect to use the muuu-
tainous portion of the range for finishing mutton lambs
On August 13 the acting commissioner announced that he would award tiie
ease for district No 4 to C. M. Bair, who was the second hi^ st bidderTt
the time the proposals were opened, but who, it seems, was subst-uueuily per
niitted to put in a bid for this district under the permit system, and for a nmch
larger sum than his first bid. The bid of liair. as read out by the a.i'ic
commissioner, was a bid under the lease system, accompanied by a lunu m .i.
ment that some sort of combination had been formed aj^alnst him for the i. i
pose of depriving him of the lease, but which certainly did nut amount to a bid
under the permit system, and he was permitted to make the subseiiueni bid
under the permit system without the knowledge of Mr. Inabit or of ournelvea
as his representatives, and without giving him an opportunity to also put iu a
bid under the permit system.
We believe also that the lease was awarded to Bair without the knowledge
on the part of the Commi.ssiouer's OtHce. iu the belief by the aclluj,' .-oiunds-
sioner that Bair had been an entirely satisfactory tenant so far as ihc I'mw
Indians were concerned, and that the Indians as a nation desired the lease to
be given to him. Our information is, and we believe that any falr-mindi-d iu-
vestigatiou will show that the Crow Indians as a nation are oppo.sed to the
granting of the lease of district No. 4 to C. M. Bair, and that be has not been
at all satisfactory to them as a lessee. So much for district No. 4.
On August 13. at the time that the acting commissioner awarded district No.
4 to Bair. he announced that Christian Yegen, who was th.- highest bidder for
district No. 5, would be entitled to the lease, but he stated thai h<- was in
doubt as to whether or not Mr. Yegen understood the bouuilary lin.-s of the
district which he would get, and that his doubt arose from the largeness of his
bid, and we were requested to ascertain from him his understanding as to ex-
actly what territory his bid covered, and to advise him that the portion of the
district whicli was know^n as Heiurich's pasture was not included iu the por-
tion intended to be leased.
It then developed, according to Mr. Abbott's statement, that the officials of your
office were without knowledge themselves as to the boundaries of district No. 5.
and apparently did not know^ what ground they intended to lease, and on
August 23, when we called upon Mr. Abbott and stated to him positively that
Mr. Yegen would accept' the lease for the district No. 5 as described in the pro-
posals on tlie terms of his bid, we were advised by him for the first time that
all of the bids on No. 5 had been rejected, the reason given by him for reject hig
the bids w^as that because at the time the proposals were prepared the Indian
Office was unadvised as to the proposed bounds of district No. 5, and that such
information as they had had proved incorrect and misleading, and, secondly,
because since the proposals were issued protests had been received by the otUce
from Indians objecting to the grazing of sheep on portions of the range.
He also stated that Mr. Yegen would be given permission to take a lease on
portions of the ground as described by the Indian Office, and he proceeded
then to write out the propositions which he would agree to lease ou. These
propositions were as follows: •
Will take $4,500 under lease for the land south of a line running from the
mouth of Black Canyon to its head; thence to the head of UoUen (Jrass
Creek; thence to the head of West Lodge Grass Canyon; thence along said
canyon to its junction with the main Lodge Grass Canyon; thence up said
Main Lodge Grass Canyon to the Wyoming-Montana boundary line. Number
of sheep to be limited to 17.500.
Will take $8,500 under permit for lands south of a line runulng from tlie
mouth of Black Canvon to its head; theuce to the fence commencing on the
east side of Rotten Grass Canyon near the head of Rotten (Jrass Creek; thence
northeasterly along said fence to the Rim Rock; thence along the Rim Itock
in a southeasterly direction to the fence of district No. 0 on the east side of
Lodge Grass Creek. Number of sheep to I)e limited to •JL'.CKX).
These descrijitions were gotten by the acting conmiissioiier from the attorney
for Frank M. Heinrich, and cover such jiortions of the I. I>. range as HelnnolJ
was not particularly anxious to lease himself, although llelnrlch hlm.'«eir lm«l
put in a bid for the whole I. D. range since the opening of the bids and
notwithstanding the fact that there had been no proposals asking for bids on
the whole range.
2016 CROW INDIAlSr EESEKVATION.
Having obtained information that the Indian Office was considering Hein-
rich's bid for the whole range we asl^ed Mr. Abbott if Mr. Yegen would be
permitted to bid on the whole range, and were advised by him that such bid
would be received, but that it would have to reach him not later than August
28, 1909.
We again took up the matter with Mr. Yegen by telegraph, and although he
was unable to consider the proposition with any degi'ee of care within the
time limited, he did telegraph that he would bid $40,000 for the whole I. D.
range, which bid was submitted to the acting commissioner.
On August 28 the whole I. D. range was awarded to Heinrich for $44,850.
This lense awarded in irregular manner and without proposals or proper time
being allowed for consideration of the proposition, as above indicated, was, we
believe, awarded by your office under the belief that Heinrich was desired
as a tenant by the Crow Indians and was in every way satisfactory to them.
We believe the fact to be, and that you will be so convinced upon a fair
Investigation, that the Indians as a nation are bitterly opposed to Heinrich as
a tenant. In addition to that it seems to us that the method of awarding the
bids on both districts No. 4 and No. 5 were irregular, illegal, and unfair to our
clients, and that by reason of the change of position by the Indian Office on
several occasions, our clients were not allowed proper and sufficient time to
meet the new propositions advanced by your office, and that for these reasons
they lost the leases for which they were bidding.
We submit further, that both Mr. Inabit and Mr. Yegen are men of high
standing, of financial responsibility, are in every way satisfactory to the
Indians of the Crow Nation, and are the parties that the Indians desired to
have the leases on their lauds, and we submit that if the proposals for leases
and subsequent award thereof had been conducted with some regard, at least,
to the legal requirements and the rights of the bidders, that we would have
received the leases for which our clients were bidding.
We respectfully call these matters to your attention to the end that the
leases which have been granted to Mr. C. M. Bair and Mr. Frank M. Hein-
rich shall be set aside, and that all parties be given a fair opportunity to bid
for the grazing lands in question.
Yours, very truly,
Hamilton, Colbert, Yeekes & Hamilton,
By John J. Hamilton.
Senator Lane. Just a moment. It appears they let this land for
a lump sum of $44,850, and took his estimate for about the number
of cattle on there. They evidently were not leasing it on the basis
of the number of head of cattle to be grazed.
Mrs. Grey. No; they were not. They could put on as many cattle
as the range could carry, but they were not permitted to sublease, and
they did sublease.
Senator Lane. You were trying to prove by this that this was all
the estimate that the office had. It would be all they need.
Mrs. Grey. I have not made myself clear. In 1914 they changed
the way of letting the lease from letting it by the range to letting
it by the head, and this was the estimate upon which it was let by
the head.
Senator Lane. This is the estimate by the head?
Mrs. Grey. It was estimated in 1913. This was to be the estimate
by the head.
Senator Lane. I see.
Mrs. Grey. And no one had anything to do with making the esti-
mate except the lessee himself, and then he subuiitted his estimates,
all in pencil, in this w^ay, do you see? This might be altered at any
time. The letting of that lease I take up in that former report, and
if you want to ask me any questions I had better go back and read
the report, because I had the documents and I quoted from the
records.
Senator Lane. Go ahead.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2017
?^''^;n?r.T-- ^^ ''''^^ ^^ ^ ^?"S Statement: I can assnre vou of that.
In 1913 this range .vas let at so much a head, but 'there was no
accounting of the numbers that were on tlie ran-e. Last year-in
Apnl ot 1913-it was decided by the Indian OHiee to purchase a
herd lor the Crow Indians. In order to accommodate the new herd
a fence was built, starting from this point here [indicating on map
on wall], running right over here, then down, and over here to the
railroad.'
Representative Burke. East and west and dividing that area ?
Mrs. Grey. Jnst about in half. You will see at the >:\u\v lime
this is mountainous, but it is not a winter range only. Thev are
not high mountains. The mountains are such that the cattle run
there all winter long. If you go a little further down here, vou
come to a place where they can not cross over to the Garvin Basin
but at this point they can range all the year. This point is the
very cream of the range. It is broken up 'in such a wav that it is
one of the most perfect ranges possible. Down here [indicating the
Indians' range], you will see, there is very little water. Tins'"! In-
dians'] does not compare at all with this [lessees']. This is where
the Indians' cattle go, and the Indians are objecting strenuously
about this fence.
Representative Burke. Let me understand you. The tribal herd
was ranged north of this fence which runs east and west, and be-
tween the two branches of the river, or the main Big Horn River
and the Little Big Horn?
Mrs. Grey. Yes ; it is to be ranged — —
Representative Burke. I understand; but the lessees' cattle are to
be kept south of that east and west fence.
Mrs. Grey. That was the understanding. This man Heinrich, who
signs himself "manager" there [indicating], is not in fact the
owner of these cattle at all. He signs himself as '* manager." In
testimony that was taken when Mr. Holcomb made an investigation
back, I think, three or four j'-ears ago, Mr. Heinrich, when he was
asked a question about how many cattle he had shipped, testified, "I
do not know until the end of the year, when I get it from the bank,"
which is proof to any cattle man that he is a manager and not an
owner of those cattle. The real owner of those cattle is H. C.
Bostwick or the Stock Yards National Bank, of South Omaha.
That is the bank that is owned by the Armours and Cudahys. In
a prosecution of an Indian for killing cattle about two months ago,
the animal that was killed bore the brand of the "Omaha Backing
Co," which is the Cudahys, of Omaha. Consequently those cattle-
there is no question but what those Omaha Backing Co. cattle are
up there. It has been testified to repeatedly that tlm^c nn- the
cattle.
Representative Burke. Is that material?
Mrs. Grey. Very material, bocause H. C. Bostwick, at the present
time, I believe, is absolutely in control of Crow Reservation. T be-
lieve that with the making of this new No. 3 lease, he tlion control.s
all except this portion between the two rivers— not op^'^'y- !'"^. !"
association with other men, as, for instance, here he is with Ileinnch.
Mr. Heinrich, in estimating the cattle there, signs himself "man-
ager" ; he does not even pretend to own these cattle.
Representative Burke. How is the lease signed?
2018 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION,
Mrs. Grey. The lease is signed by Heinrich, but the surety is
Bostwick, and the accounting for the cattle when they are sold at
Rosenbaum's is made to the bank, and the checks that go to pay the
lease come from this bank. I do not think there is anybody who will
deny that Bostwick is back of Heinrich.
Kepresentative Burke. Assuming that to be true, I have not seen
the point as to what difference it makes whose cattle they are, if
there is a lease and there are so many cattle paid for at $2.25, whether
they are Bostwick's or Heinrich's cattle.
Mrs. Grey. There would be no reason, except for the fact that Mr.
Heinrich leases it, and he is under contract not to sublease ; whereas,
in fact, if you will examine conditions on Crow Reservation, you will
see there is a great power that is absolutely autocratic. You will see
the employees of these men going around with guns. They are able
at any time to hold an Indian up and search him, search his house,
break into his house, and do anything that they want to, and there
is no check upon them.
Representative Burke. Do they do those things?
Mrs. Grey. Yes, indeed. This range has been divided, and a new
arrangement has been made by Heinrich by which he in fact was
making a new permit to take effect very shortly. He paid $44,800
for the entire range. He is getting the best half of it for $15,000.
There is no competition, no bids, and I know of no reason why it
should be cut down, because it is the best part of the range, and you
see he is getting it for considerably less than half.
Rei)resentative Burke. Now they have abandoned the $2.25 and
another lease has been made?
Mrs. Grey. And another lease has been made, and he gets it now
for $15,000. There has been no official estimate, of course, of the
number of cattle that liaA^e been run there.
Senator Lane. When was the lease entered into?
Mrs. Grey. I have it here and I think I will read it.
Representative Burke. What amount was the check for under the
lease at $44,850?
Mrs. Grey. It has not been settled. He sent a check to the com-
missioner and the commissioner returned it, because they could not
come to a positive agreement as to what was due.
Representative Burke. What was the amount of the check?
Mrs. Grey. It is in here, if I just could find my papers. Wliat was
the question you asked ?
Representative Burke. What was the amount of the check that
was tendered and returned under the lease that provided for the
payment of $2.25 per head ?
Mrs. Grey. I think I had better find that for you. The price of
the permit was cut down without competition, so that he paid only
$15,000 per annum, but he agreed to pay $2 per head per annum
for any stock grazed in excess of the average of 7,500. Now, he him-
self makes the estimate of the number of cattle that are there, con-
sequently that amounts to nothing. In the new form is this clause
[reading] :
The permittee further ngrees to purchase at its market value all surplus
hay put up by Imlians in this district and offered by them for sale. Such hay
is to be properly stacked and fenced before its purchase. Fence to conform
to the requirements of the laws of Montana.
CHOW IXI.IAX HKSKKVATIOX. OQIQ
Representative BuKKE It has not been finally approved?
of ,1 at Ythinl V; I " '•■" been finally ap|M■„^li,'b';,. I „^ not sn,,
01 tliat. i think it has been. But it contnin^ fhic ..l..,.c,. „i \ W
purchasing of the hay. One of the gr^^tl^Zl^i;^^^^:^^
1. that the Indians are down in these districts awav from the r
road and they are not permitted to sell their hav to anv no except
the lessee. He in this permit, is not compelled to pay any f vTd
price; merely the market value; and instiad of paViiig ti e ,'^
market value he has heretofore, and all of these lessees Tuive, on iv
paid $4.o0 and $o, whereas when the agent buvs hav he b.ivs at J^IO
and the market price even goes up very muci; higher, as von know'
It is made entirely in favor of the permittee. This rindicatina
paper], as it is written out here, also contains a clause which will
permit the lessee to sublease. Xow, this matter of sui)leasin^ has
been under discussion for a long time with reference to Crow
Eeser^■atlon. One man would get a lease and then he would sub-
lease, and sublease and sublease and sublease again, niakin" many
subleases. For instance, Heinrich was pavinir $-2.25 a head'~for his
cattle. He was subleasing to John Booz "in such a way that John
Booz was paying something more than $4 a head for half a year
Then they were also subleasing to John Kendriclc, to E. L. Dana,
and to a great many others for very much more than the lessee was
paying. This has been going on continually, and is of course very
unfair for the Indians, showing they are liot beinir paid what the
range is worth. And then, again, the permit contains this item
Senator Lane. What is the date of that new permit?
Mrs. Grey. March 11, 1914 [reading] :
The permittee shall have the privilese of snbleasiii?, with tlie approvnl of
the superintendent of Crow Keservjition nnrl tor not in excess of flio ninonnt
p.-iid by him. that part of tlie above-descrilied lands sontli of tlie nionntains
knowii as the Garvin Basin and estimated to contain SO.OOO iicics and to sniv
port l.nno head of stock. All stock grazed in this baslu to bo counleil with
permittee's stock in making above average.
Senator Lane. At what rate per head
INlrs. Grey. There is none given.
Senator Lane (continuing). Per acre?
Mrs. Grey. It simply says, "sliall not pay more than the lessee."
Senator Lane. AMiat does the lessee ]")av?
INIrs. Grey. I can not tell; there is no way of telling.
Ixepresentative Btrke. He is to pay $1').000,
Mrs. Gray, Xo; Heinrich is to pay $ir).nOO for the whole thing,
but he is to sublease this at the rate for entire range-— ir>,0()0 head of
stock and 30,000 acres. There is no way of checking him so that
he shall not get more for the subleased range than he i"^ paying.
He is getting very much more now, and it is the only sublen.-«e that
is acknowledged, whereas there are, in fact, very many.
SuGOl— PT 15—14 14
2020 CKOW INDIAN KESEKVATION.
Eepreseiitative Burke. Let me ask you, are you apprehensive that
unless this commission now, at this time, investigates this matter,
that an improper lease is going to be approved by the Secretary of
the Interior?
Mrs. Grey. I think that very much misinformation has been given
to the commissioner, and I think that there is going to be a very
great error made there unless immediate action is taken.
I was down in the Indian Office a few days ago, on March 2
Kepresentative Burke. March 2?
Mrs. Grey. May 2, I mean, and I had at that time with me a num-
ber of files copied from files and letters, and I went over this matter
with Mr. Linnen, who is here, and the result of our conversation was
this memorandum, which I will read. The memorandum dees not
give evidence. It is a memorandum made from evidence, and the
evidence is not here. We went over the papers, and I do not think
there is anything here
Representative Burke. It is a synopsis, is it ?
Mrs. Grey. Rather a synopsis and memorandum. It was prepared
for the commissioner. No action has as yet been taken upon this,
and time is passing when action can be taken, and unless action is
taken it is going to be cause for very serious loss financially to the
Crow Indians, and a great many deaths. A number of those
Indians have starved to death this last winter. I personally know
of two who have actually died of Avant.
The point in this lease is that in making the leases on the Crow
Reservation, and in particular this lease to Frank Heinrich on this
range, the rights of the Indians are entirely lost sight of. There
are on that range a large number of Indian allotments that are the
only means of support that the Indians have, and what I am say-
ing now applies just as much to No. 3, wdiich come just about in
here [indicating on map], down here, and parallel with the Big
Horn River.
Repersentative Burke. West of the Big Horn?
Mrs. Grey. Yes. This No. 5 has been completed but not ap-
proved. This No. 3 I think has been approved but not gone into
effect yet. The point is that the Indian allotments are put in for
nothing, and this great power controls them.
Representative Burke. Just a minute. This lease that is now
pending, about which you have information, you have gone over
the matter with Mr. Linnen?
Mrs. Grey. Yes.
Representative Burke. A memorandum has been prepared for
f^ubmission to the commissioner, and the lease will not be approved
by the Secretary until the commissioner has first approved it, and
until the commissioner acts, is there anything for this commission
to do? I want your opinion about that.
Mrs. Grey. Well, the matter was under investigation by this com-
mission, and this matter was before this commission, and is before
this ccmmission, rather than before the commissioner.
The point that really should come more before this commission
than any other is both with reference to leasing of a portion of
No. .5 and No. 3. The method in which the Indian allotments are
included in the lease, that is the point that I particularly want to
bring before the commission, because that is the vital point.
CROW INDIAN i:i.SKItVATI.).\. 2021
The whole reservation is inchide,! in theso .»...•„,;♦ \' i
of the hind is allotted and the Ii li . ^. |)enuit.. \ ery much
their allotments. TheiV Tllotn en s 1 ^l^/'^ '\' "^
.ets the beijefit of those )li jridi^^Lnir^uhiiiit ";.i:;^^:;^
lor them The result is that the Indians are in a state'o '^j.! ,
Vr'Ji" 1 ^^ ^'T' ^f s«"'«thing like a half ndllinn -res of,
lor wh ch they do not pay a cent, and in that wav the U-ssoes v o
are on the inside can a ways overbid anyone from the ou id^
Senator Lane I call Mr. Burke's attention at this time ., this
statement, made by Indians and th, se who represent ti.e u : T 'v
refused to work upon this fence. Thev objected to it. Thev s icf
This puts us onto the bad lands." and they had nothin. to do w th
it, and that is verified by the commissioner and others
Mrs. Grey. More than that, they threatened to kili'anvl,odv who
did AYork on It, and I think if I had not sent the petition in" there
would have been murders committed.
Senator Lane. They claim, in ccnse(|uen<'e of that, that th.- de-
partment held back their annuity and did not pay them— their only
means of support was the sale of their hay, it seems, and tiiev cbiim
that the lessees had refused to buy their hay because thev would not
work on the fence, and that the superintendent refused to tjiye (hem
their annuity for the reasons that they would not work on the fence,
and the last winter they got en to very short raticns; they were
living;, a good many of them, on potatoes and flour mixed up with
water, and Avere trying to buy, one of them, at least, any such dead
cattle as they could find on the range and asking permission to use
them for food for their families, and that all this wa> dene in order
to force them to do this work en the fence. Thev made the claim also
that the cattle, when they Avere shipped and "sold by this lessee-
shipped to the packers in Chicago and Omalia— that he cr the
packers set the price for them and made the weights and returns in
every way, and that those packers Avere, in fact, partners of the
lessee on the range.
RepresentatiA-e Burke. I do not knoAv anylhinir abont the c( iidi-
ticn in Montana. Those conditions do not obtain in our Slate on the
reservations, and we maintain stock inspectors in Chicago wIjo keep
track of all cattle that come in.
Mrs. Grey, Does he keep track of the Indian cattle?
RepresentatiA'e Burke. All cattle.
Mrs. Grey, He takes the last brand only, does lie not ?
Representative Burke. I suppose. Anybody's cattle will ooca-
sionally get in with a shipment, and the idea is to see that the owner
gets the pay for that number.
Senator Lane. The Indians had no one to represent I hem. Thfir
cattle Avere shipped and placed in the hands of (he packers in Chi-
cago or Omaha, Avherever they were sold, and claim (hat (he men
handling the cattle on the range Avere employees of (he packcis.
That Avas the complaint.
RepresentatiA'e Burke. I protest<'d against it when they leaded
reservations in our State; protested until it became somewhat im-
plea.sant for me, and to-day the dejiartment itself is notifyiu!?
lessees that they Avill be required to remove their cattle, (enninatin;?
their leases, not renewing them.
2022 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Senator Lane. There was another complaint made, which was
that these leases were made to begin and expire on the 1st day of
February, and the Indians set up the contention that it prevented
anyone on the outside — any new bidder — from coming in and bid-
ding on it with any reasonable hope of success, for the reason that
he could not put cattle on there at that time of the year, nor could
the lessees get off very comfortably, and so it was favorable to the
man occupying the land.
Representative Burke. If you did not start earlier than some time
in February or March, you would not get a lease that would do you
any good that year.
Senator Lane. They claimed they were forced to take possession
at an unfavorable time of the year. You can not drive cattle in
February in any part of this country that I know of. You would
have to ship them on the train. That was the specification that
was put up to bidders, that they must take possession on the 1st
of February instead of allowing them to come in when the grass
was good. That is the contention of the Indians. They thought
lessees should be permitted to place the cattle onto the range in
June, when they could do so easily and in good shape. You can not
drive cattle either on or off- the range in February. It is not the
time of year for that.
Representative Stephens. Do they not ever put the cattle on in
the spring of the year?
Senator Lane. They would have to pay two or three months and
get no pasturage. The Indians claimed that that was a discrimina-
tion in favor of the men who were already on the reservation.
Mrs. Grey. The last permit has been changed on account of the
work of this commission, so that particular permit now goes back to
the old time.
Senator Lane. The old lease began the 1st of July, and it was
changed a number of years back.
Representative Stephens. This one you speak of has been changed
this^ month?
Mrs. Grey. Yes; for No. 3 on No. 5. This is not really the mak-
ing of a new permit. This is the making over of an old permit
rather than the making of a new permit. This is a substitute for
the old permit.
Representative Burke. Let her confine herself for a moment to
the question of the allotments.
Mrs. Grey. That is the most important matter.
Representative Burive. And tell us what the conditions are with
reference to that.
Mrs. Grey. The permits contain the statement, all of them, that
the lease is void as to the allotted lands; it is always so, I thiilk.
Representative Burke. That is what I thought.
Mrs. Grey. The Indians have been trying for a long time to get
control of their allotments. Mr. Burke, you can remember when I
first came before the committee in the House, about five years ago,
when you and Mr. Stephens were both there, and that was the state-
ment I made at that time as to the conditions on the reservation, and
you introduced a resolution to investigate it.
Representative Burke. Yes; I remember that.
Mrs. Grey. That same thing is going on still.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2023
In Xo. 3 care these
Representative Blrke. When von smv - \m -^ " ,.
S or district No. 3 or lease No. 3 ? ' ' ""'' '"''"" '•"'''' ^'''
Mrs. Grey. District No. 3.
^.Representative Burke. That is the west portion of the racrva-
Mrs Grey. That is the west portion of the reservation and runs
down to this portion here [indicatiixr] «>.iuon ana nins
Representative Burke. That is the portion about midway between
the Big Horn River and the west line? ' oeiween
Mrs. Grey. And the west line.
Representative Burke. And east to the Big Horn River?
tainons * "' ^^'''' ""^ '* '" ^''^ '"'"^^ watered; it is not moun-
Representative Burke. That is what you call " No 3 "?
Mrs. Grey. It is No. 3 and comes just about here and runs down
the line It contains probably more allotments than any other part
ot the Crow Reservation. " *
Representative Burke. Can you tell us approximately how many
acres are in that area? "^
Mrs. Grey. Four hundred thousand acres, I think. It is estimated
very roughly in that way.
Representative Burke. Is there a separate lease with somebody for
that area ?
Mrs. Grey. Yes.
Representative Burke. And who is that lessee?
Mrs. Grey. At the present time it is Rea Bros.
Representative Burke. When w^as that lease made and what were
the terms of it ?
Mrs. Grey. Their permit, I think, expired January 31, 11)14, and
they are just making a new permit, and they just now come to the
terms on it.
Representative Burke. What was the old lease?
Mrs. Grey. The old permit was for
Senator Lane. How long and when did it expire?
Mrs. Grey. January 31, 1014. I will just read this letter
Senator Lane. Can you not read the lease?
Mrs. Grey. This is the letter describing the lease, and it is ap-
proved by Assistant Secretary Adams [reading] :
Representative Burke. When did that lease begin that that has
reference to?
Mrs. Grey. That begun in 1911.
Representative Burke. At what time in the year?
Mrs. Grey. It must have begun in June.
Representative Burke. That is one of them that did not begin in
February ?
Mrs. Grey. This Avas the one that did not go with the otlier five
leases. This was separate and expired at a different time and begun
at a different time. '
Representative Stephens. IIow long did it run?
Mrs. Grey. Three years.
Representative Burke. Was there any collusion between this lessee
and Bostwick, that you say dominate the reservation?
2024 CKOW IXDIAX KESERVATIOX.
Mrs. Grey. There Avas at the time, but it was not ai)pareiit then.
In the present permit it is apparent. The lease was made to Rea
Bros., and Rea Bros, come from Forsyth and from St. PaiiL and I
have no proof that I can submit, although I know positively who
they are. But of the present lessees, one is a practicing attorney
in Omaha, to Avlirm the lease is supposed to be made, and the other
is David Zimmerman, in Pennsylvania, and those are the old B. Z.
cattle, wdiich I think you have a great deal of trouble about. You
know Avho he is.
Representative Burke. I know him.
Mrs. Grey. He is the surety. The lease is to McGee & Zimmer-
man ; that is the new lease No. 3.
Rejjresentative Burke. You started to make a statement about the
area of No. 3 and described it and the number of acres, and you
said most of the allotments w^ere in there, and we asked you some-
thing else about when that lease was made, and you answered it was
made in 1911, for threo years, to Rea Bros., and that has expired?
Mrs. Grey. That has expired. I made the statement that Bost-
wick w^as really in control of the reservation.
Senator Lane. What was the matter w^ith that lease which began
in 1911 and expired in 1913?
Mrs. Grey. It went in at 50,000, and the estimate of the agent
that it would carry 96,000. Sheep were not counted and no record
Avas kept of them. If you read the bids, you will see one man, Mr.
Rea, says he is bidding more than the thing is w^orth anyway, but
"no matter what anyone else bid, he will bid $600 more" and put mi
the extra $600 for two years with his bid, because none of the out-
siders knew anything about those thousands and thousands of acres
of Indian allotments that they were getting for nothing.
Senator Lane. You mean, then, to say that in securing this land
they would secure possession of other allotted lands to wdiich they
were net entitled and which
Mrs. Grey (interposing). Yes; and of which other bidders wore
not supposed to haA''e information.
Senator Lane. How much of that allotted land was there on this
No. 3 ?
^Irs. Grey. I can not tell you on No. 3, because there w^as no way
of knowing; but Agent Scctt estimated, in a statement he made, ihat
there were 2,300 such allotments in all, which would make .•.b')at
half a million acres of land, according to the estimate that Mr.
Linnon and I made of it.
Senator Lane. On No. 3?
Mrs. Grey. No ; on the whole reservation.
Senator Lane. What proportion of that would be on No. 3?
Mrs. Greiv Well, I should say probably about one-fourth of that
would be on this No. 3.
Senator Lane. That would be about 125,000 acres? ■
Mrs. Grey. Yes; that they pay nothing for, notliing whatsoever.
Senator Lane. That is a serious charge and if you prove that it
will show either gross negligence or criminality.
Mrs. Grey. I take a sentence out of this paper. It seems to be so
f.onfused
Senator Lane. Just stick to that now. and follow that out. You
have made an assertion; can you show that to be true?
CROW IXDIAX RESERVATION. 0(^05
Mrs. Grk.. Yes; T can. if y. u will Uuw pati.-Mrc- an.l ;:iv.. ,„. ;, .
(. do It; but I will have to take a senten.-e out of oue file an.I a ^....■
tence out of anotlicr letter, as vou know.
Mr LiNNEN. I suorcrest that the information she is j.x.kin- for
possibly IS not contained in that.
]\rrs. Grey. It contains it but not in su<-h form as the committee
wants it, but as a memorandum. (Readin<r:)
All allotments to be niaclo with the advice of cur n-.Mit ..r s.i.h ..ili.-r , ^. •■
as the Secretary of the Interior u,ay desi,n..,te for tl.Tt mi-pos ",:.„'
.on. h,.Mds of fannlies selectingr for their «,i„.,r chiUhv,,. n.i.l .he m.-u. „,
the all..tmen for each orphan child. The title to he a.-(,uired bv us. and l.v ail
menibors of the Crow Tnbo of Indians, shnll not be snbj..,-t to niio.,:mM„ li,," '
on luciunbrance. either by voluntary conveyance of the ^'nn.lee or bis belrH or
by the nid?nient, order, or decree of any onrt. nor snb.),.<-f t.. taxation ..f hmv
char:;cter, but shall be nnd remain inalienable. and not subject J., tiixatloii fo'r
the period of 2.5 year.s. .-md nntil snch time tliereafter j's tlie President iiinv w-e
fit to remove the restriction, which shall be incorporated In e:H-li inti-nt ' « •"»
Stat., 3G.) '■
Senator Laxe. Now, you charjje that this land was used
Mrs. Grey. And is used at the present time.
Senator Lane. Given to Rea Bros, by the Indian Department?
Mrs. Grey, By the Indian Department.
Senator Lane. And they knew of this law, and in doing so they
were criminally negligent of the interest of the Indians?
Mrs. Grey. That is exactly what I do charge; not only with re-
spect to Rea Bros., but with respect to ev.ery single lease on Trow
Reservation to-day — every one of the six.
Senator Lane. Hoav are you going to prove that ?
Mrs. Grey. On Mav 13, 1912, in an official document numbered
"Indian Office files 41014, 1908, Crow, 3-21. Interior Dej)artment,
United States Indian Service, contracts 147T9. 12 grazing lea-ses." I
find this letter. This copy has been verified, but I can net locate it
exactly in the files. I have picked this out from all over the files. I
will read this series of letters, and I will afterwards verify it for
the reporter.
Representative Burke. You are reading from a reported co|)y ?
Mrs. Grey. I am reading from a copy made at the Indian ()ffice,
as Mr. Linnen will remember, and I am not reading from the origi-
nal, but it was verified from the original, so that you will get what
is unquestionably the original. This letter is dated May 1. 1911
[reading] :
[Indian liiirfiiu file No. 39.n5!t. I'.ni. i k.a ...i ,
.M\^ 1. nil!
Mr. W. W. Scott,
Indian Supenntendent, Crow Ayciici/, Mont.
Mv Dear Mr. Scott: While I was in Omaha last week .Mr. Willis .<!|HMir .md
Mr. Frank M. Heinrich. lessees on the Crow Ueservation. took np with Mr.
Holcombe and me what they nnderstood as .a new leasing policy on tin' Crow
Reservation. As I recal' it. tlicir statement of the case is Itrielly tlil»: Tliat
yon have approved several grazing lea-scs covering individual :ilIotments. Tliey
referred especiallv to one at least of l.OOO acres. 'I'he fence al>out ttds hind,
they contend, incloses a sprins which heretofore has w:itore<l not only the
stock of the Indians owninir the allolnients but also a ninnl)er of other sfiK'k
Thev make the point that if tins policy is conlinuwl, the c;tpacity of tlio Minec
will" be verv greatlv depleted, and that they will have lo dtn-rease tbeir 1
becanse there will "be insnflicient water; and also that then" will be cnir
friction, inasmnch as the stock on these !i!lotments will break into the ;,..■;
ment ])astures.
2026 CKOW INDIAN KESERVAIION,
They make the point also, that by exchuliug Indians' cattle from the allot-
ments where they have grazed and secured water in the past, it will cause
them to drift out ou the lange, so far away that the Indians will be unable to
look out for them; that in this way the leasing policy which they say you are
adopting will tend not only to reduce the gross income from the tribal lands
by forcing a reduction in the number of the head of stock grazed by them,
but that it will tend to reduce the size of the Indian herds themselves. They
also make the point that this policy will place on the reservation an inferior
breed of stock and prevent the Indians from receiving the benefit from the high-
class breeding animals, the use of which the Indians now enjoy.
Having no personal knowledge of the new policy to which they referred, and
not knowing whether the office had approved the leases in question or not. I
advised Messrs. ypear and Heiurich to take the question up fully with you on
their return to Crow Agency.
Of course, if you have jiresented the matter fully to the office, and the office
has approved your action, there will be nothing for you to do but to make
such i-eport as the facts warrant when the matter has been fully presented to
you by these gentlemen.
I wish only in this letter to remind you of the very great importance of in-
vestigating fully all sides of the question before inaugurating any sort of leas-
ing policy on the Crow Reservation. The office, as you know, is averse to indi-
vidual able-bodied Indians securing their living from any sort of leases, whether
farming or grazing leases, until they have made use of at least 40 aci'es of
agricultural land or otherwise have become self-supporting by their own efforts.
Of course it is not the business of the office to protect the lessees except in so
far as equity and contractual rights demand, unless it is clearly shown that
the welfare of the lessees and that of the Indians lie in the same direction.
Of course, therefore, the only question for you to decide is whether the Indians
as a whole will receive more or lesss real benefit from making grazing leases on
Individual allotments.
I have my own personal ideas about the proper policy to follow in this matter
on all the western reservations, but the only one of my ideas I wish to express in
this letter is that every Indian should be encouraged to fence and use his own
allotment, whether for farming or grazing purposes, if he makes use of it
himself.
I feel sure that whatever your final recommendation may be. it will be based
upon a careful investigation of all the facts. I am sending a carbon of this
letter to the office with the belief that your conference with Mr. Spenr and Mr.
Ileinrich will result in a full understanding of the situation and that no im-
portant question will be raised which it will be necessary for the office to
decide.
Yours, very truly,
F. H. Abbott, Assistant Commissioner.
Department of the Intektob,
United States Indian Service.
Crow Ayencii, Jlont., May 3. t9U
The Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. C.
Sir: Following my telegram of this date — "Please withhold approval of
leases Hill family to Tompkins, recommended Apri 25; letters follows" — I
have to report on those leases as follows:
These leases were approved by this office, as it seemed that Geoi-ge Hill, a
competent IiuVan, wIjo made those lenses for himself and family, was getting
a fair jn-ice for the land au:l was making an endeavor to improve bvs allolment
by having the consideration, the fencing of his land. This seems to conform
with rules issued by your office March 9, 1905. requiring that all leasing of
unfenced allotuipnts should have the provision for fencing, and it seems that
it is also the idea of your ofhce thit Indians should be encouraged and urged
at all times i^o improve and fence lands allotted to them.
Objection has been made to these lenses and other similar •
Spear and Ileinrich, lessees of the open range or tribal lands, on the grounds
that it fences up the water holes. In regard to this I would refer you to
Assistant Commissioner .Abbott's letter of May 1 to me after his conference
with said gentlemen in Omaha last week.
CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2027
apin-oved this block of laud will all be fe)K-e.l. an I as all" huuls aluuK t he rl er
are fenced both north and sonth of these leases beiuK faruiiu« lauds, there Is
no way to the nver for water in handling cattle.
On tlie Hill land allotment 14G< is a running spring, and the whole ohjec-tioD
seenis to be the fencing up this spring, as the lessees of the open range. SiS r A
Heiunch, wish this water in handling their stock when shipping
The shipping corral and loading chutes are located on White Won.an allot-
w1"l- 4 """'^^ '^ '^""^ pending with Mr. Spear to secure three years' usi- of
A\hite V^onian and One Star allotments, in order that they n.ay liaxe an
unfenced strip to the loading corral. I have suguested to .Mr SiK'ar th it ha
include the east 40 of While Woman allotment in his lease in onler that he muv
have access to the river at that point.
The argument under present arrangements is that with the water on the
Hill allotment fenced, the cattle will have to be thrown back 3 miles to I <KlBe
Grass Creek for water; and by the time they are back to the corral thev ni-ed
water again, and that in shipping there are always Indian cattle with their
ov>-n cattle, making the Indians as a tribe suffer along with them.
It appears from the tribal lease of Spear and Heinrich that the lease is void
as far as the Indian allotments are -concerned.
Following this argument it appears to be a question of whether the benent
of the tribe as a whole, through what cattle that may be with the s.iid Icsset's"
cattle at shipping time, will be greater than tha individual riirlits of the Hill
family in leasing the lands which to them, and whether the Hill
family in this instance are to be deprived of the rights as alottees, which have
been granted to other Indians on the reservation.
I would respectfully request the consideration of these leases with thp point
of establishing precedent for future guidance.
Very respectfully,
W. W. Scott, Suix iiuk ii'irnt.
Ckow Ackncy. Mo.nt.. !/(/;/ .?. If) 1 1.
The CoMMrs.siONKR of Indi.\n Affairs,
Washington, D. C.
Sir: I am to-day in receipt of a letter from Assistant Commissioner Ablnitt,
dated Denver, May 1. 1911, a copy of which was transmitted to your ofTu-e by
Mr. Abbott, in which he discusses the question of leasing allotted givizing lands.
It apiiears that Messrs. Spear and Heinrich, who are lessees of unallotted graz-
ing districts on this reservation, called the matter to his attention personally?
during Mr. Abbott's recent visit to Omalia.
Messrs. Spear and Heinrich are under the impression that such lenses are a
new departure and protest against them on the ground that as the allotnitMits
always cover watering places where possible, leases of this character, if made
in great extent, will greatly decrease the value of the public range.
Commenting on tliis I desire to pay. first, that we have not inaugurate*! a new
policy. I find from the records of this office that such leases liave been made
for several years back; that the Indians have been allowed to lease their surplus
lands under department;! 1 regulations, whether agriculturil or gra/.hu;. .\ble-
bodied Indians are required to retain at least 40 acres of land for their own
use.
Mr. Abbott speaks of the lease of l.GOO acres mentioned by Mes.srs. S|iear and
Heinrich as being of the objectionrble class. This probrbly refers to groups
of leases now under consideration. One by George Hill ami family to Tompkins,
and the other by Bright Wings et al. to Rosa I'elers. Tlnvso Uv^s.-s are sulv
ject of letters addressed to your office to-day. copies of which ar.' utti-.-lied
hereto, setting out the facts in detail. We have not completed any l«>j«'»es
of any considerable quantity of allotted grazing bind up to ibis time.
There are two sides to tlie question raised. On llie one band the less.'o or
permittees who are paying for the privilege of grazing the uuallottotl tnicts
will suffer by the leasing of the allotted gmzlng l:inds; not only by the loss of
the grass, but what is more important by being shut out in many cas«'s from
access to water. As stated above, in selecting allotnuMits those embrncinK water
supply are always secured where it is possible. Then. too. when small Krnring
2028 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
tracts ai'e leased the lessee will almost invariably put on more stock than bin
holding will carry, depending on poaching on the open range for the deficiency.
We have heretofore arbitrarily refused to sanction leases which we had reason
to believe werje of this character.
On the other hand, the Indians claim the privilege of leasing any lands
which they can not use, and contend that they should not be required to allow
them to lie idle in the interest of the cnttle and sheep companies. The
regulations contemplate such leases, and in the lense contracts of the cattlemen
It is especially provided that "in case of the allotment of lands in sevenilty it
is figreed and understood that this lease shall be void as to the lands so
allotted."
From a legal standpoint it seems clear that the Indian may inclose and im-
prove his entire allotment — the grazing as well as the agricultural lands — and
he may do so either personally or by menus of a tenant.
In our business dealings I have found Messrs. Spear and Heinrich entirely
fair and reasonable. They are paying $110,000 annually for their range, and
I feel that it is only fair to afford them all protection consistent with proper
regard for the rights of the individual Indian. All the members of the tribe
share alike in tbe benefits of the lease mentioned, and if the ranges are reduced
by reason of these small gmzing leases all would suffer alike, while a very few
comparatively would be benefited.
I do not apprehend that the objection urged by Messrs. Spear and Heinrich.
that the cattle belonging to the Indians would be scattered, is well taken.
The grazing allotments are not fenced and are not occupied by the Indians,
consequently are not their grazing headquarters. The " I. D." cattle, if tliey
have any hendquarters at all, are looked after from the agricultural land
occupied by the owners and not adjacent to the grazing lands. It is possible
that a deterioration in grade would result from the introduction of inferior
stock by the small ]es.sees.
On the whole I conclude that we should exei'cise our discretion In the matter
of approving leases involving the alloting of grazing lands, and th;it such con-
tract presented should be carefully scrutinized and should be approved where
it is apparent thnt it will depreciate the value of the range, while those vrhich
apparently would have that tendency be disapproved in the interest of tlie
tribe as a whole. We would be pleased to receive such instructions as your
office may deem proper.
Very respectfully,
W. W. Scott. Sii!)eriii!(ii(Uiti.
[Indian Office file 41014, 1908. Crow 321.]
Department of the Interior,
United States Indian Service,
Croio Agency, Mont.. May 13, JO 12.
The Commissioner of Indian Affairs.
Vvasli'inf/ton, D. C.
Sir: In couueetion with the re-lensing of the Crow grazing ranges next
spring, and for which advertisements will soon be published. I desire to suggest
thiit advantage be taken of the opi)ortunity to eliminate the vexetl question as
to the leasing of allotted grazing lands. There are on this reservation iibout
2. "00 such allotments, r.-inging in size from 40 to 240 acres. Generally family
selections lie together, while the agricultural allotments of the same family
are situated at distance so great as to render the use of the two together im-
practicable. About a year ago the Indians very generally conceived the idea
of le.ising their grazing hnuls in groui»s of allotments, ranging from 1,000 to
2J)<M or n;ore ticres, to stockmen from the outside, generally from Wyoming,
who i)roi)osed to inclose the whole under one fence, thus inclosing the water
along the sti'eams on which the allotments are located. One such lense was
ex(vuted last year before its pernicious character was realized, and wns the
subject of a protest by Messrs. Spear Bros, and F. M. Heinrich. lessees, to
Assistiint Comniissioner Abbott, on the occasion of Mr. Abbott's visit to Omaha
last year. The corresjiondence on the subject will be found in your files.
Tito situation is this: If those ]o;ises are allowed they will absorb all the
water now available and the large tribal lessees will be forced to retire, and in
their steiid we will have to deal with some scores of small operators, who will
use the allotments for a base and forage over the entire range.
CROW INDIAN RKSKHVATION. 2029
After the most earefnl cnsi.lon.ti.m. with :, i..ini.l.. kiiuul...!^... ..f ,1.,. si.n.-,
tion ana bavnig in nnnd the go.Kl ,.f the trih,. as a wlw.le. we .-..n.-hule Hut
to \er.v serious objection, ainoiig which is the eiM.rin..ns .•.iimiuit ..f wurk wlil<-h
the arrangement would entail. Ahout 7(X) of the '2:\m allotments are now
"dead Indian lands," and in all of these heiujn^.s would he ii..r...Mirv hi .-nler
to determine the heirs to whom the rental wotdd have to h.. |mhl frtHiiu-iitly in
sums so small as to be out of all proiiortion to the work n-.|nlretl InxeHilRa-
tion would be necessary to determine whether eaelj spe-ilic inu-t was ..r \vu»
not fenced. Whenever a tract was fenced a new apiiortioiuiient woidd b- net-PH-
sary. and .in individual account would be reqiiiiwl f.ir nearly every member of
the tribe.
As stated above, in a vast majority of cases, the ;:razliin ami aurlcultuml
allotments are not contiguous and can not be used togetlier. as a very penernl
rule the grazing lands are not fenced or used in any wav by tl)»'> owners.
This was, of course. ::pi:arent at the time of allotment and i't would Hceui
that the idea then had in mind was that these lands siioidd be set aside «s uo
asset r;'ther than as a i;art of the farming or stock-raising etiuipment. hence
we do not feel that any special injustice is done tiie allottees by refiislii« to
allow them to fence off a part of the range to their own small" itersonal n<l-
vantage and to the great disadvantage of the trilie as a wlmb'. N.. Indian
uses his unfenced grazing lands for his own stock, but uses the (ipt-n range.
If be is allowed to lease his land his stock must f-ed on the triiail lands to
which he contributes notliing.
It is impossib'e to formulate a system which will wuik exact equity to each
individual member of the tribe: and. therefore, we must resort to tliat wlilch
will result in the greatest good to the greatest number. In the jmlgment of
this ofiiee the best and most jnacticable arrangement would be to have it uniler-
stood that the large grazing jtermits include the allotted grazing lands which
are unfenced. Witli this understanding the lessees would be willing to pay a
higher rental, being assured that the water which is now open and available.
would remain so during the term of their lease. An onh'r from the depart-
ment. ])rohibiting the leising of grazing allotments, especially in groups, which
is practically the only way in which they can be leased, during the life «)f the
tribal leases, would be accepted and acquiesced in by tlie wlade tribe, and
would settle the question permanentl.v and satisfactorily.
It is respectfully recommended that the matter be giv(>n consideration with
a view to the issuance of such an order.
Very respectfully.
W. \V. Scott, Siijk liiitmdi uI.
(Carb'on copy to Mr. F. 11. Abbott, assistant conuni.ssioner. t
.May L'T. 1:»1L'.
Mr. W. W. Scott,
Superintendent Crow School.
Sir: The office has received and considered yom- letter dated May 13,
regarding the leasing of individual grazing allotments within llie limits of the
tribal grazing districts on the reservation under your supervision. In n>n-
neetion with the leasing of the tribal pastures, your judgment is that thi- nioMt
practicable arrangement would be to have it underslodd that the large gni^lng
permits include the allotted grazing lands which are unfenced and yon rtvon»-
mend the issuance of an order by the department prtddbiling I lie leasing of
graziiig allotments, especially in groups during tiie life of the tribal ieasiit.
Under th<^ terms of the exi.stiiig leases and iiermits covering tlie lands In
question, all unused and unleased individual alloiments (imt separately fenccNl)
are included, the proceeds going into the tribal fuml. At a hearing In (hi*
ofii- i' on March 27, 1012, a delegation of Crow Indians to whom the qneMluni
of the grazing policy were submitted voted in favor of continuing llie pret«pnt
system (only one vijting in the negative), and voted imanUnonsly in fiivor of
putting up the leases for competitive bids.
2030 CROW INDIAN EESERVATION.
On Mny 1, 1912 (34781-1912), the department authorized the publicalion of
advertisements calling for bids for grazing privileges under the leasing system
on diftrlcts Nos. 1 to 6, inclusive (except No. 3), for a three-j^ear period be-
ginning February 1, 1913. The bids are to be received until 2 p. m. June 24,
1912, at the Crow Agency, and immediately thereafter opened and forwarded
to this oflice, with appropriate recommendations, as per the approved form of
proposal, a sujiply of which was sent you for distribution.
In view of the foregoing and the conditions rep.orted by you, this letter will
be your authority for prohibiting leasing of individual allotments for gi-azing
within the territory embraced in the tribal grazing districts during the terms
of the leases and permits now in effect or that may be hereafter approved.
It is believed that this procedure is best for the interests of the tribe as a
whole and that the Indians will readily acquiesce and conform thereto. You
will please make the order known to all interested parties, and esi)ecially
acquaint prospective bidders for tribal grazing privileges with its purport, to
the end that the best possible offers may be obtained.
Every effort should be mride, however, to encourage the Indians to fence
their grazing allotments for the use of their own stock.
Respectfully.
F. H. Abbott. Assistant Commissioner.
May 24, 1912.
Land Division :
A paragraph should be added to this letter stating that every effort should
be made, however, to encourage Indians to fence their grazing lands within
the pastures for the use of stock owned by the Indians themselves, but where an
Indian fences his individual grazing land he should not participate in the income
to the tribe from grazing.
F. H. A., Assistant Commissioner.
The Hill leases have since that time been approved, Mr. Tompkins
being the lessee. It will be found on investigation, however, that
Mr. Tompkins had made his peace with Spear Bros, and Ileinrich,
in tliat he now pastures their thoroughbred yearlings.
There are very many stockmen living adjacent to Crow Reserva-
tion who make offers to the Indians and formally to the Indian Bu-
reau like the following.
Further reply to these letters has been made in the following
order :
Department of the Interior,
United Statfs Indian Service,
CroiD Agency, Mont., January 3, 191-^.
Circular letter to the farmers, Crow Reservation. Mont.:
Tour attention is again called to the matter of informal contracts being made
with Indians of the Crow Reservation whose lands are held under trust patents.
It appears it has been the custom of a great many Indians on the reservation
who are trust-p:itent Inrlians but feel that they are competent to handle their
own affairs to make contracts themselves with outside parties for the leasing
of their lands for grazing purposes. By this method a great many small stock-
men have introduced cattle on these allotments.
You are directed to give th's matter your special attention and see that no
stock is introduced on the reservation under contracts or len.ses of this kind.
This matter has been the sub.iect of considerable correspondence with the
Indian Oflice, and we are in receipt of a lettei", under date of December 19. in
which I quote as follows:
" In view of the conditions now reported, j'ou are instructed to invoke the
authority previously given you regarding this matter and to prohibit the leas-
ing by allottees their allotments in groups for grazing purposes. You will
take i)ronipt action in all cases of th's character that may come to your notice
and cause to be removed from the reservation any stock belonging to the out-
eiders found grazing without proper authority, reporting the facts to the oflice."
A short time ago we sent you loose-leaf binders in which we placed leaves,
giving a description of leases made in your district. As fast as new leases
CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2031
are made extra leaves will be sent you for insertion i„ this b(H)k. thus yo„ will
be kept posted in regard to all leases made in vonr district
It has been the custom for people livlns .,n the reservaUun to make a con-
ract with an Indan to cut bis bay for a share of it and then contract \o br^ng
Lis stock on the land to eat up the hay. This is. in reality, the method to get
around making a formal lease with this olHce and yet secure the grazing or
grass for cattle which have no right on the reservation
As more and more land is being sold on the reservation the percenting of
informal leases and informal contracts with Indians, who wish some ready
money, is becoming more difficult, but for the protection of the ln;liMiis :,nd the
lessees the making of informal leases must be stopped.
You are directed to report imuiediately to this otUce all cases in your dis-
tricts in violation to the above instructions.
There are a. great many mixed bloods and full bloods who feel that they are
competent to handle their own affairs and yet they wish to hold their land
under a trust patent in order to avoid the payins of taxes. These i)arties if
they wish to make their contracts and handle their own business without ref-
erence to this office, should at once make application for a fee patent to their
allotment.
You will inform all such parties in your district whose land is still held
under a trust patent that no informal leases shall be made on trs'st land nud
no leases of any kind made without the approval of the superinto ident. The
making of contracts with trust-i)atent Indians without the approval of the
superiutenaent is unlawful and in violation of the act of June li.".. IPKt.
The above instructions in no way affect the leasing of fanniug lands, except,
that they must be made through this o\.Mce with the approval of the suiter-
inteiulent, and each able-bodied Indi:;n is required to keep at least 4(1 acres of
his farm land for his own use. Please publish the substance of this order
among the Indians.
Very respectfully,
\V. \V. Scott, SiiiKriiitcmJcnt.
This correspondence shows an entire change of heart (in the part
of Agent Scott. The following letter will slunv the influence that
was brought to bear to bring this change of heart :
Lodge Grass, Mont., May 6, 1911.
Dear Mr. Abbott: Mr. Spear and myself had a meeting with Scott, and after
thoroughly discussing the matter Mr. Scott admitted thit he thought to lease
the choicest tracts out of the grazing districts would work harm to the Indians
as a whole. And that no more such grazing leases would be made.
Also, th:!t he had called off the Peters-Waisner sheep lease and had orderetl
tlie sheep off.
Mr. Scott is a very conscientious man and absolutely on tho square. I llnd
that he wants to do the right thing by both the Indian and the les.see.s. And
those are the kind of men needed in his position.
Hoping to meet you here next summer, and with very best wishes.
Very truly,
F. M. IlEINIUCII.
Note by Helen Grey.— They did go hunting and have a good time.
This change of heart on the part of Agent Scott began immedi-
ately after the receipt of this letter. At the present time it rosiilt.s
in removing from Indian allotments lessees whose leases have
been heretofore permitted and whose money has been paid in ad-
vance. There is a rule of the Indian Bureau that competent Indians
may sign leases for themselves and for their children. 'Ihese com-
petent Indians are nevertheless included in this sweeping ohUm- of
Agent Scott that the stock must be removed in the middk> of (he
winter, even thonsh the rent has been paid in advance an( tlie hav
purchased. The Indians are too poor lo repay what thev have hud
in advance. The transaction leaves the Indian further (bsciT(b(ed,
and further kills any remaining opportunity that he may ever ix^
2032 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
permitted to do husiiiess as the law premits him to with hi^^ white
neighbors.
Senator Lane. Ivight there I will state to Mr. Burke that that was
complained of by the Indians, that they were not allowed to fence
their own individual allotments, for the reason that it interfered
with the grazing privileges of the lessee.
Representative Burke. Who signed that?
Mrs. Grey. W. W. Scott, superintendent.
Bepresentative Burke. That man has a pretty good idea of the
situation, I think, do you not?
Mrs. Grey. How?
Representative Burke. As I understand it, he recommends that
the Indians' allotments be permitted to be used by the lessees, and
unless you do it is going to cause confusion and dissatisfaction, and
from an equitable standpoint the Indians have all shared pro rata
in the proceeds of these leases.
Mrs. Grey. No, sir; they did not share in the proceeds.
Representative Burke. How did they share?
Mrs. Grey. In the first place, the entire fund this last year was
expended by the agent, contrary to law. The Indians did not get a
dollar of it last year. They got no annuity fund. So it does not
really come back to them anyway at all. ISIore than that, it is con-
trary to law, because the allotments are all made on Crow Reserva-
tion, with the restriction in them that the}^ are not subject to lease,
alienation, or taxation.
Representative Burke. What does an allotment consist of up
there ?
Mrs. Grey. Three hundred and twenty acres.
Representative Burke. What is it — 320 acres of grazing land?
Mrs. Grey. Grazing 160, and agricultural IGO acres. Mr. Burke,
just consider a moment: He calls this "grazing land." At the same
time he says " fencing off the water." They do not put grazing al-
lotments on the water, do they?
Representative Burke. I do not know what the conditions are on
this reservation.
Mrs. Grey. They certainly do not. This includes all of the land
that the Indians have got on Crow Reservation.
Senator Lane. The Indians say, and the lessee does, too, that if the
Indians were allowed to fence these lands and make use of them
themselves, or to rent them to somebody else, it would keep the lessee
from having access to the water. They must have water.
INIrs. Grey. They can not possibly be grazing lands, and they are
not.
Senator Lane. It is all creek bottoms?
INIrs. Grey. That is exactly what it does include.
Representative Burke. If you were to lease all of those allot-
ments along the streams, and fence them off, as suggested, then you
could not lease the divides at all to anybody.
Senator Lane. How is that?
Representative Burke. You could not lease the lands away from
the streams — the "divides," we call them.
Senator Lane. Maybe not.
ReiDresentative Burke. Nobody would lease them.
CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2033
Senator Lane. There were offers to lease u nuinlKT nt tlic..., fr..,,,
small cattlemen — to lease them seriatim.
Kepresentative Burke. He makes the slaleniei.l a-ainst thai, ihat
if that IS permitted the lessee of the ;L>U acres, f.,r lUhlance, would
range his stock on the tribal lands.
Mrs. Grey. Yes; but he does not do it.
Senator Lane. And the large lesst^e did not want that done.
and neither did the agent, but the Indian did want it done; if that
was done he would get the money for the use of his lands.
Representative Burke. On the basis of these leases he would not
get much for 320 acres.
Senator Lane. He would get something; if it was onlv lu rents-
he would get the dime. Li this way lie did not get anvihing. f<.r
the reason that the money was expendeil in iniiiati<;n srhenier and
he again claims he did not get the" use of the water. Thev to-.k the
water from them, and he lost all around.
Mrs. Grei'. I have been examinin«r the accounts, and 1 lind they
tpent money for everything on the face of the earth except for the
Indians.
Senator Lane. You see the money is expended, not for the .sup-
port of the Indians, it seems, but is expended for irrigation si-henies,
with the result that Avhile there was $4S.():,0 received last year from
Heinrich and something from the others, the Indians went hungry
and were eating potatoes and Hour mixed up with water, ami (hey
do not like the proposition.
Mrs. Grey. They are actually dying of star\ati<in on the reser-
vation.
Senator Lane. And all this money coming in and an annuity bc-
,sides, and thev go hungry; it is the general complaint.
Mrs. Grey. It comes right down to the question
Representative Burke (interposing). Do you think we can make
any investigation of the Crow Reservation unless we go onto the
ground ?
Senator Lane. I do not know whether you can or not. You ran
begin here and then go on the ground, but if you neither begin hero
nor go on the ground, you will net get an^'where. We are not get-
ting very far now. AYe are scattering too much.
Mrs. Grey. Are you satisfied to include in the Indian leases the
individual allotments, and let the Indians starve to death?
Senator Lane. No.
Mrs. Grey. The lessee does not pay a cent for them. Ineluding
them in this way, as has been done for years on the reservation,
brings about that the reservation is reserved for (he big le.ssees and
not for the Indians.
Representative Burke. You have been making an argument that
sustains my contention that yen can not have tlioe leases in any
way that will amount to anything without creating dis.satisfaction
and confusion. .
Mrs. Grey. I do not think they can, either. But cortanily if it
ic an Indian reservation, it shoidd not be a reservation frr (lie
lessees before the Indians. As it is now it is a reservation for the
lessees, because the authority was granted by Mr. Abbott.
Senator Lane. Put (his in the record: I will .'^ay this for the in-
formation of the commission: There were individuals wlu» offered
to lease this land and fence it and pay cash rental for it, nml also
2034 CBOW INDIAN EESEEVATION.
to buy such hay as the Indians raised upon the better portion of it,
down in the flat near the water, at the rate, I think, of $6 a ton, was
it not ?
Mrs. Grey. Eight dollars a ton.
Senator Lane. Six or eight dollars a ton.
Mrs, Grey. Eight dollars a ton and fence the Indian's land.
Senator Lane. Eight dollars a ton and take all the hay that he
would raise, and that offer was submitted to the agency and to the
department here and refused.
Representative Burke. Simply because they never made such a
lease with which they did not have trouble, because they will not
confine their stock to the leased land.
Mrs. Grey. The big lessee does not confine his stock. That is the
great trouble. We have had testimony to that effect. I have seen
it myself on the Crow Reservation. The lessee, if he wants to go on
the other side, will cut the fence and go right through.
Representative Burke. That is the reason why they should not be
there.
Mrs. Grey. I do not think they should be there ; I think the reser-
vation should be for the Indians.
This is a letter written to the Indian Bureau, a copy of an appli-
cation for a lease that v/as sent to Senator Lane [addressing Sen-
ator Lane]. They sent you the copy of the application and the ap-
plication was sent to the Indian Department and that is in here [indi-
cating other papers], but this is the copy that was sent to you.
Senator Lane. Is that the original?
Mrs. Grey. The original is in with all of the files. It is up here.
T do not think I have got it here to-night.
Senator Lane. Read that.
Mrs. Grey. Mr. Linnen has seen this original [reading:]
Lodge Grass, Mont., November 26, 1913.
To the Senators of Indian Affairs.
We Indians want to lease onr land to John H. Booz. We hnve 840 acres,
all fenced grazing land. He will give ns 20 cents per acre for it by the year for
five years. Please help us as we are so bad in need of money to get us some-
thing to eat. Our cattle are gone with Heinrich and we can not find them.
]Mr. John H. Booz said he would give my father work iu the spring at $40
per month.
JNIr. Booz said my father is pretty fair hand with cattle or stock of any kind.
My father has worked for Booz and he gave him $2 per day to help him ship
his cattle, and he says Booz is honest with us.
Your friend.
Mr. SCRATCHESFACE.
Mrs. SCRATCHESFACE.
Nellie Scratchesface.
Mrs. Grey. This is one lease that was recently made by the Indians
themselves. It is a mighty good contract for fenced land. They are
not permitted to use tliis land. Heinrich is using it to-day, and they
can not get a dollar for it — 840 acres. I have been on that range
myself.
Here is another one [reading] :
Wyola, Mont., December IS, WIS.
The Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. C.
Dear Sir : I hereby request your consent to lease to Mr. John Booz allot-
ments belonging to myself and family for three years (description of allotments
attached). Mx*. Booz agrees to pay me 20 cents an acre for all of land he
CROW [XniAN RESIRVATION
1>U35
pastures, and agrees to pay me market prices f„r all nf the cats I ean r— ■,!
the granary, and .$G per ton f„r all the hay I ran put up. He will p.\ '
per month for my team to feed the stock. My land is all fen.-.M with , •..
wires. Mr. Hemrich does not lease my laud, and .Mr. John Hn.,z has uMde
a good otter for my pasture and I want hin. tn tak.. it as suou as ,K.KMlle
I want Inm to pay the lease money <Iirei-t to u.e ;,nd .„.i il.n.u^'l, tl... : «,m.i n»
I need the money badly for the winter.
Yours, truly,
rr. 1,- ^^ n ., o„ I-'''"Ti.K (Little Nesfs mark) NfzsT.
Township >o. 9 south, range 33 east.
892 Little Nest has kits 2, 3, 4. and the S. half N\V. stv. 1. nls«, lots 1 3 4.
sec. 2. K. 9 S. 33 E. 894 Mary Little Nest has U.t L see 1 «» s "« '»
896 Killed the Sorrel Horse Itider lias the S. half N. h.i'lf stv " OS Xi B
895 Pretty Enemy has the N. half SE. and the NE. S\V sec •'' 9 s' '« B.
890 Bull Goes Hunting has the SW. and the W. half SE. see "l 9 s :w E.
893 Mary La Forge luis the S. half NE. sec. L and lot 2 se<' •' 9 S 33 H.
891 One Buffalo Calf has the E. half SE. se<-. 1. !• s. :•,:< ]■]. ' " ' '
Mrs. Grey. He was refused.
Senator Lane. Who was that?
Mrs. Grey. Little Nest. This Little Nest has been in siidi des-
perate straits this winter that one of the babies of his fatnilv. a ncice,
died, as a direct result of havino: n(Khino: to eat. and vet thev own
this splendid piece of land, have it all fenced, and Ileinrich ii.ses it
all winter, and he has not paid one dollar for it.
Representative Burke. Let me ask you riirht here in re<:ard to this
case: How does Heinrich tret his cattle onto this land that is feuccti?
Mrs. Grey. He cuts the fences. ]Mr. Booz, you reineinber how he
testified, that he had seen the wire cut and rolled back. You will
find it all over the reservation — 2:0 any place you like.
Senator Lane. The Indians made the charirc that they cut tiie
fence, and a big bunch of cattle would go through, and tJuit it did
not take long to clean up the grass and destroy the hay.
Mrs. Grey. And if an Indian was holding his cattle on his own
range his cattle w^ould go with the lessees.
Senator Lane. And if he had any cattle in theie they went out
■with those of the lessee.
Mrs. Grey. Yes. The question is. Are you going to hold the
reservation for the lessee or the Indians? The Crow Keservation
should be held for the Indians and not for the les.sees. I do not
know what the income of that reservation may be. It is .sometliin«?
enormous. Nevertheless, the Indians are actually dving of starva-
tion and want to-day. They are huddled in tents. Tiiey are unable
to get onto their allotments; they have practically no cattle and no
horses; they are subjected to every form of persecution from the-^o l)ij»
lessees that can be conceived of. They are subject to arrest by the
lessee. The employees of the lessees go around with their guns and
everything of that kind.
Here is another one, signed by Rosa Peters. She begins her letter
freadingl :
Wyol.\. .Mont.. Dccrmbcr S, t'JlS.
Mrs. Helen Obey.
Madam: I am senrling you a copy of our letters to you to Seerptnry I.nne
and Commissioner Sells. We herehy request .vour ronse-it to lease .•illotiiH-ut
Nos 12*^9 Mrs Kose Peters. .320 acres; 1290. Arthur refers. ir.(194 n«T»>«: 1-.»1,
Elsie Peters, IfiO acres; 1292. George Peters. 1.W.9S nm-s; 1293. Ali.-e Vlern.
ICO acres; 1294, Eunice Peters, ir.7 acres: 1295. Ernest Peters. I^.ul«. I etem,
147 acres.
.35601 — PT 1 n— 1 4 1 ^
2036 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Mr. John H. Eooz ngrees to pay us 20 cents i)er acre for all the land that he
'pastures and agrees to pay us market price fur all the oats we can raise at
the granary ami {{^G per ton for nil the hay we can raise, and agrees to pay us
%5 per day for our teams to feed said hay.
Mr. John Booz agrees to put a good 4-wire fence and posts and take out
of lease money to pay for fence, till paid for, so much each year till the fence
Is paid for.
AVe will say in regard to Mr. John Booze, he is a practical business man;
he knows what he is talking about. Had it not been for Mr. Booz quite a
number of us peop'e would have suffered a great deal more than we have.
AVe have been doing business with Mr. Booz for several years. AVe find him
strictly honest.
Mr. F. M. Heinrich has refused time and again to buy our hay and pasture
for several years, and the only way in which we can make a living is oif this
land. The allotment of Mrs. Rose Peters and family are fenced with a G-wire
fence.
AA'e request that the money for the land be paid to us; not to Supt. AV. AV.
Scott.
This allotment is found in township No. 8 south, range No. 55 east, allotment
No. 1293, township No. 8 south, range No. 34 east meridian.
(Signed) Rosa Peteks.
Mrs. Gray. That was turned cIoan^ii. The family lived all winter
in a tent and had absolutely no means of support whatsoeA'er.
Here is another one that was sent to me [reading] :
Wyola, Mont., December 8, 1913.
Mrs. Helen Grey.
Madam: I am sending you the copies of the letters we are sending to Secre-
tary Lane and Commissioner Sells.
AA^e hereby request your consent to lease allotment Nos. 936, Young AVolf;
034, Mavis Bright AVing; 935, Mustle Bright AA^ing; 930, Bright AVing; 932,
Sings on the Horse; 931, Horse Stay all the Time; 931, Maria Bright AVing.
Mr. John H. Booz agrees to pay us 20 cents per acre for all the land that
he pastures, and agrees to pay us market price for all the oats we can raise,
at the granary, and $G per ton for all the hay we can raise, and agrees to pay
$5 per day for teams to feed said hay.
Mr. John H. Booz agrees to put up a good 4-wire fence and post and take
out of lease money, to pay for fence till paid for, so much each year till
paid for.
Bright AVing.
Mr. F. M. Heinrich refused to buy our hay for a good number of years.
We have never received anything for the use of those lands.
AA'e request that the money be paid to us for the land and not to Supt. AV. W.
Scott.
AVyola, Mont., December 8, 1913.
Mrs. Helen Grey.
Madam : I am sending you a copy of our letters to you to Secretary Lane and
Commissioner Sells.
' AA'e hereby request your consent to lease allotment No. 1291, Mrs. Jennie
Martinez.
Mr. John H. Booz agrees to pay us 20 cents per acre for all the land that
he iiastures, and agrees to pay us market prices for all the oats we can raise,
at the granary, and $lj per ton for all the hiiy we can raise, and agrees to
pay ^5 per day for our teams to feed said hi-.y. Mr. Booz agrees to put up a
good 4-wire fence and posts and take out of lease, to pay for fence till paid for,
so uuich each year till paid for.
Mr. F. M. Heinrich refu.sed to buy our hay for a good number of years.
We have never received anything for the use of those lands.
Mrs. Maria Bright AVing.
W^e request that the money for the land be paid to us and not to Supt W. W.
Scott.
This allotment will be found in township No. 8 south, range No. 34 east.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2037
Mrs. Helen Grey. ^^''■"'•'- ^'"•■'"'- '^'<-""(>^' .s. /.',/.?.
This land is selections for my elnhlren. Mr. Jul,,; x." "hooz agrees to my us
20 cents per acre for all tiie land that he pa.tnr.s. an.l a^rrees t . ,m , s m , rk"?
price for all the oats we can raise, at the granary, and .1=0 per ,.u f . r \\ul
hay we can m.se, and agrees to pay us .$5 per day for t,.anis ,o feed .^nid h y
Mr. John Booz agrees to put np a good 4-wire fenc- and p..sts and lake nii
of lease money to pay for fence till paid for, so much each year till fe li-e ■
paid for. * !»."« c io
Mr. F. M. Heinrich has refused to buy our hay and pasture twice and
again for several years, and (he only way m which wo can nialie a livit.- is off
this land. " "
We request that the money for the land be paid to us. not to Sunt W W
Scott. I .
Allotment found in Township No. S south, range 34 east, meridian.
El.SIK I*. ('AIRh:.
Department of the I.nteriok.
United States I\pi.\.n Sekvick,
Croic Agency, Almtt., Xomnbrr G, J0I3.
Miss Rose Peters, Wyola, Mont.
Dear Miss Peters: I have 5'ours of the 0th instant, in wliirh you s:iy you
wish to lease to John Booz your lands, and wish to Icnow whether it will* be
all right or not. In reply, I have to state that this lease will have to lie made
through this office, and as to whether it could he approved by this ollice will
depend upon what use Mr. Booz wishes to make of the land. If .Mr. P.ooz
wishes to farm this land, or an amount enough to make a farming lease, we
will be very glad to make the lease for you, but any stock propusition wherein
there would be danger of stock runniug on the outside ranges could not l»e
approved by this oltice.
A'ery respectfully,
W. W. Scott, Siii)erintcnilcnl.
Mrs. Grey. That was also turned down. It was all fenced, and so
it goes on. And there are a good many thousand acres here tliat
were covered this way. None of them were permitted to occupy
them and none of them were permitted to use their hi ml. hecaiise
they had nothing that they can use them for. None of them have
any cattle, and the land lay there and Heinrich u.sed it and paid
nothing for it.
Now, in this No. 3 lease, which has been in existence a long time.
I have got the section map showinfr the allotments that are inchided
in this lease No. 3, for Avhich nothing whatsoever is paid. Y<tu can
look at this [referring to map] and you can see at a glance what is
there. That is nearly all alh)tted [indicating].
Representative Burke. That represents a township?
Mrs. Grey. Each square represents a township. They are in that
lease. ....
Here is another one: You see here is the TVig Horn Kivcr [indi-
cating], and all that is in the lea.se and all covered by the aUotmcnts.
Here [indicating] is the same; that little corner is in the lease; it is
all covered by the allotments. This [indicating] is in the lease
Then that is in the lease. You see, that is all covered by the iillot-
ments. This whole thing is in the lease. It is all in the lease from
there [indicating] west. These are not grazing allotments at ull.
2038 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Representative Burke. The lease covering the area included in
the townships, for which you have plats, show lands that are allotted
in each township expressly provides that the lessee does not have the
right to use the allotted lands, does it not?
Mrs. Grey. It does.
Representative Bukke. Your contention is that that is not in force,
and, as a nuitter of fact, the lessee does use the allotted lands, and
the Indian Department refuses to allow the allottee to receive any
direct benefit from the leasing of his allotment?
Mrs. Grey. Yes. And you can see from these plats that practically
or nearly all of No. 8 is allotments.
Senator Lane. How^ many plats have you there and what are they
numbered? Is there anything about them to identify them?
Mrs. Grey. Yes. I went over them all to-day, and Mr. Keating was
with me.
Representative Burke. How many townships are there?
Mrs. Grey. These are tlie townships on this paper [indicating].
Mr. Keating. I think there are 12 townships in this lease.
Senator Lane. About how many allotments have you here?
Mrs. Grey. It is very hard to figure them out. In the first place,
not all of the allotments are on these papers.
]\Ir. Keating. There are more than 40 or 50.
Mrs. Grey. Oh, yes. You have tliat many right here. All of these
are in it. Those are not grazing allotments.
Mr. Keating. Township (> range 31 east. In this township there
are about 10 full sections of land allotted. Township 1 south, range
30 east, contains about 14 sections. Those are not marked on this
particular map, Senator.
Mrs. Grey. No. In looking up the agricultural list, you remember,
Mr. McBride. we frequently found they were not on this [indicating^.
There was nothing there to show it.
]\Ir. McBride. Yes.
Mr. ICeating. Township 3 south, range 33 east, contains about 8
sections. Township 2 south, range 33 east, contains about 17 sections.
Township 3, range 32 east, contains about 19 sections.
Senator Lane. Have you shown on these plats here that they are
entirely separate, each township, which contains allotted lands and
which it is contrary to the law to lease?
Mrs. Grey. I have the law here.
Senator Lane. They have been leased and the lessees have had
the use of this for how long?
Mrs. Grey. I suppose for 20 years.
Senator Lane. Without paying anything?
Mrs. Grey. Not a dollar.
Senator Lane. And do you claim that the Indian has been denied
the use of it for his benefit in any way?
Mrs. Grey. In any way whatsoever.
Senator Lane. And, in the meantime, he has been going down hill
in a financial way and his health has been deteriorating?
Mrs. Grey. In every way.
Senator Lane. And you are making these claims, which you are
able to substantiate with these maps?
Mrs. Grey. And with the applications for these allotments and the
refusal of them.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2039
Senator Lane. That is one of the charges which von wish f. make?
Representative Burke. Slie dees not claim they are leased
benator J^ane. I beg vour pardon.
Representative BuRivk She has not claimed thov are leased- on
the contrary, she claims they are excluded specificallv fn.m'thc
leases but the lessees are, in fact, permitted to use them' against the
protest of the allottees. *'
Senator Lane. You are right about that.
Representative Burke. And in that conucction I woul.l like to
make this suggestion: Mr. Linnen. as T understand i(. states that
in the new leases it is proposed to eliminate such a ndition.
Senator Lane. We were not going into that.
Representative Burke. I know, but I want to make a statement in
reference to it. I would rather discuss it some time when Senator
Robinson and Senator Townsend are here, because they are both
lawyers. The Department of the Interior, in mv judirment, can not
make a blanket lease for allotted lands without the consent of the
allottees, and if they propose to make a lease and eliminate tiie alh t-
ments — that is. include the allotments— they can not make a valid
lease under the law.
Mrs. Grey. I ha^-e said that for 8 years.
Senator Lane. That is Mrs. Grey's contention.
Representative Burke. Because the allottee has a vested right
that Congress has not the power to disturb or affect by legislation
without his consent.
Representative Stephens. I would like to make a statement along
that line that the complaint seems to be hei-e that these lessees go
onto the allotted lands and cut the fence down and use the land
without the consent of the Indians. Now, each (me of those Indians
would have a cause of action against the lessee and criminal and
civil action for damages, and the courts are open to them, aufl it is
the duty of the agent at that place to see that the Indians' jiroperty
is protected, and these men having given bond for the purpose of
carrying out the leases would be responsible both civilly and crimi-
nally, and I do not see any reason why these suits have not been
brought. I understand the agent has been removed or will xton bo
removed, and there wnll be no cause for any action on the part of
the commiasicn that I know of that will affect this matter. These
leases have run out.
Mrs. Grey. No; they are still going on.
Representative Stephens. Some of them are in ell'ect cniy one?
Mrs. Grey. Six of them. All of them are in effect with that
provision, and you have now made the contention I have been mak-
ing ever since I have been here in AVashington.
Representative Stephens. Has there never been any attempt made
to prosecute these lessees ?
Mrs. Grey. Xot a single one.
Representative Stephens. AVhose stock has destroyed the hay f
Mrs. Grey. All the lessees' stock. And here is the statement made
by Indian after Indian that the lessee refuses to buy his l):\v, and
you go up there to-day and vou will find the lessee refuses to buy.
It is in his lease contracts not to sublea-e, and if he do<*s .Miblease,
that his lease is forfeited, and he subleases right in the fare of the
Indian. We found in the accounts of the committee, you know,
20-10 CROW INDIAN EESERVATION.
how they ship. Here will be the account of an Indian steer being
shipped by John Kendrick from AVyola on the reservation. John
Kendrick must be shipping from the reservation. Then there will
be another one by Dana, and he must be shipping from the reserva-
tion, and he is not a lessee.
Senator Lane. Then, I understand you to say that it is against
the laAV for the Government
Representative Stephens. For the lessee or anyone else to go in-
side the allottee's fence for any purpose, and if he does, that there
is cause of action, both civil and criminal against him.
' Senator Lane. And it has been done, and yet there has been no
action taken, and in consequence the Indian has been deprived of
an opportunity to support himself, and in consequence has suffered
to the extent that has caused death. Is it not witliin the function
of this commission to investigate that?
Representative Stephens. We will investigate it, so far as that is
concerned, but the leases having expired and nothing having been
done with it, what are we going to do?
Mrs. Grey. The leases have not expired.
Representative Stephens. And then we could reach the parties
through the courts. How could this commission carry into effect
any decree we might make?
JNIrs. Grey. "What I have always wanted, Mr. Stephens, was for
this commission to take cognizance of those things and ask the de-
partment to prosecute them.
Representative Stephens. Is not that the duty of the department
and not the duty of Congress? We have no jurisdiction of that.
Mrs. Grey. We have been taking it up with the department for a
good many years, and I am the only " criminal " they have ever been
able to find.
Representative Stephens. They could be prosecuted in the court
of appeals.
Mrs. Grey. I have appealed elsewhere. I will go further than
that, that they can not lease the allotments, and neither can they
make the big tribal leases vfithout the consent of the tribe. There
is not a lease on the Crow Reservation that is valid, for here is the
law. Here is a quotation from the Statutes at Large, page 44, and
this is the only authority for leasing the lands on the Crow Reserva-
tion [reading] :
Third. Tluit if at any time hereaftei* we, as a tiMbe, shall consent to permit
cattle to be driven across our reservation or grazed thereon, the Secretary of
the Interior shall fix the amount to be paid by i;arties so desiring to drive or
graze cattle; all moneys arising from this source to be paid to us under such
rules and regulations as the Secretary of the Interior may prescribe.
(The above from 22 Stat., 36.)
Mrs. Grey. It has always seemed necessary, for some reason, to get
what appears to be the consent of the tribe. The Indians, in fact,
have protested in every w^ay they know how, against these leases.
The law says they must consent.
Senator Lane. They have appealed to the Indian Bureau, and
the Interior Department for relief, and not having secured it, they
are now appealing to Congress, through this commission, to see
whether Congress has any power within its reach which will afford
them relief, or point out some way by which they may get relief.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2041
If they can not get it here-this is the court of hist rescrl-tlu-v are
certainly in a deplcrable condition.
Representative Stcpiiexs. I am sure that the (lenartmeiit will
take this matter up and see that these corrections will be properly
made, and see about all these agents, and if the agent has u'en deni
hct, there is nothing to do but let him be removed, or some investi-
gaticn made, or put a proper man in his place.
Representative Burke. It appears from this record that the de-
partment was approving this method in these leases?
Representative Stephens. Yes.
Mrs. Gref. AVhen Superintendent Scott went there, he immedi-
ately approved one of these leases, as a matter of course, to let them
have the land. Spear and Heinrich immediatclv were in council in
Omaha with Mr. Abbott and Mr. Holcomb. the result was that
Mr. xVbbott wrote Mr. Scott to withhold the approval that he had
already mailed to Washington. Mr. Scott then wired to Washing-
ton to withhold that approval, and wrote a very indignant letter,
and said the Indians were absolutely right in making those leases,
and that it was unjust to the Indians to make them any tlillerently.
That letter is included in this record.
Representative Burke. Of course, whenever you enforce the terms
of such a lease as Mrs. Grey has described, you will not make any
leases except such leases as may be made by individuals of desir-
able allotments. It means that much of the reservation will go
probably unleased.
Mrs. Grey. Ko; on the contrar}^, Mr. Burke, the gra/.ing lands
around the reservation are so scarce that right acre ss the bonier —
here will be the line of the reservation — they pay 50 cents an aero,
while on the reservation they pay 5, and less. If the Indian lands
were thrown open to lease, so that the settlers who live arouml could
get onto this reservation they could help the Indians. That is the
great contention the}^ make. They have to support the Indians, he-
cause the Indians are begging and destitute, unless they can have the
benefit of their land, and if the settlers were permitted to go in and
make more leases, the reservation would lease for very much more
than it does.
Senator Lane. They have been leasing tl)osc lands under tlie old
leases at 5 cents an acre.
Mrs. Grey. When I went there first the rate was 1 cent for 11
acres, irrigated land. That was wluil Cha.lcv Bair was jiaying.
$7,000 for 400,000 acres. These ditches run through this land, and
then thev take the Indian's money to help to pay for tho.se diiches,
and more than that, the law says that this money must Ih' paid to
the Indians, and instead of paying it to the Indians, they are iisinj?
it to run the reservation.
Representative Burke. Senator. I want to make this observation:
It is admitted that— I do not think there is any contention as to the
facts in relation to these leases on that reservation- before we in-
quire more in detail, I would like to have a meeting of this commis-
sion, when we are all present, with the representatives of the depart-
ment and the legal representatives, for the purpose of disru^sing the
legal phase of this situation, and I think the Indian Oflire would
welcome it, before they make any further leases, especially if it 18
contemplated making a lease that eliminates this provision that was _
2042 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
put in these former leases, on the theory that they did not have the
right to lease them, and consequently the}^ excepted them from the
provisions of the lease. Then the question of remedy can be dis-
cussed, as to whether or not these lessees are not liable, as Repre-
eentative Stephens has suggested, in damages to these allottees, and
if steps are taken to enforce it, it will be like the cutting of illegal
timber by large corporations; they will come in and settle it in most
instances, in my opinion.
Mrs. Grey. Mr. Burke, eight years ago, when I started to Wash-
ington— I had been over the reservation at that time, and was cor-
respondent for large newspapers — with a petition of the Indians to
investigate Charley Bair's lease. He was running sheep. He vol-
untarily took his sheep up and took them off the reservation before
I got to Washington. He took them GO miles up the trail at the
end of April, abandoned his hay that he bought on the reservation,
trailed them up to Forsyth. He had his sheep to shear; his pro-
visions were all there. He knew" he was liable for a lot of money for
tresspassing, and what was the result ? After he had taken his
gheep off voluntarily he w^as invited back by the Indian Office. He
came back under the same terms. This man Cambpell is the stock
inspector. In going over the accounts of the agent for last quarter
I found $60 for pasture paid to A. A. Campbell. The check was
signed "A. A. Campbell." When I made complaints about two
years ago Inspector Norris went there, and he reported that Camp-
bell was guilty of dealing in horses; that his inspection was no in-
spection; and that he had used intoxicating liquors so much before
the Indians on the reservation that his influence had been dissipated;
land yet that man is in office still.
Senator Lake. I had the same idea that you had, and I invited
Mr. Meritt to come up to-night, and he said he had another engage-
ment and could not come, but he said he would send the representa-
tives of these departments; and I presume maybe it is these gentle-
nien here wdio are in charge of these leases and do that business for
the Government, and who know more about the details of it than
Mr. Meritt himself. I do not remember the names. If those gentle-
men are here, we will put them on the stand and get some evidence
from them.
Mrs. Grey. May I make a little statement before Mr. Linnen be-
gins? I have been in Washington eight years pounding away at
this thing. Two weeks ago I figured this up with Mr. Linnen, and
we spent several hours on it, and he is the first Indian Office official
who has ever been willing to acknowledge this, and I came back and
told Senator Lane that it was the first really happy thing I ever
found in the Indian Office.
Senator Lane. Who is it that represents the department?
Mr. Linnen. I believe Mr. Weekley might be able to give as much
information as anybody with reference to the records.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM D. WEEKLEY, CLERK, INDIAN OFFICE.
(The witness was duly sworn by Senator Lane.)
Senator Lane. What kind of clerical work do you do?
Mr. Weekley. I am engaged just now in handling the leases of
the tribal lands.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2043
Senator Lane. How Ion- have you been en-a-e.l in thai w„rU ?
Mr. ^^ EEKLEY. Here lately for the last three or fo„r ,nonths-I
was on it tor about two years, from 1901) until 1!)11
Senator Lane. Are you familiar with the conditi.Hi in Crow Reser-
vation ? ^
Mr Weekley Well, fairly so. I have handled part of them. I
handled the one lease in favor of Rea Xo. 3.
Senator Lane. Did yon handle any of tlie leases of Heinrich ?
Mr. A^EEKLEY. AAell as I remember that. I submitted the lease
which had expired m favor of Heinrich for approval, but I was not
on the desk at the time
Senator Lane. When did it expire?
Mr. Weekley. It expired February 1. 11)13.
Senator Lane. Did you have anythincr to do with the new leases
made for three years followin<r that time?
Mr. Weekley. Xo: not the one that was approved. I liave han-
dled the correspondence with roirard to the diuiiiiishiu'; of his district.
Senator Lane. The terms of the lease of 1011 ?
Mr. Weekley. From 1010 to 1013. his three-vear lease.
Senator Lane. You are familiar with that lease of Rea ?
Mr. Weekley. Oh. of Rea ? I thought you meant Heinrich.
Senator Lane. Heinrich or anyone. AVhat were the terms of that
lease and what was the rate per acre?
Mr. Weekley. For which?
Senator Lane. Any one.
Mr. Weekley. The terms of the lease, as I remember, for district
No. 3 were for two years and seven months from Jidy 1. 1011. The
annual rental was a little over $17,000; I do not remember the exact
figures.
Senator Lane. How many acres?
INIr. Weekley. Something over 300.000 acres, as I recolle<-t it.
Senator Lane. How much would that l)e an acre?
Mr. Weekley. It runs about 5 cents. I believe.
Senator Lane. Over or under 5 cents?
^Ir. Weekley. I do not recall just the exact acreage. ScMiatoi'.
Senator Lane. About 5 cents?
Mr. Weekley. About 5 cents: somewhere along there: I can not
say the exact figures. He was to have an average of 50.000 sheep per
annum on the district.
Senator Lane. Was there any allotted lands in that?
Mr. Weekley. I do not understand there is.
Senator Lane. Was there at that time?
Mr. Weekley. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Was anv exception made about it?
Mr. Weekley. The lease form contains the provision that the lease
is void as to allotted lands. It is customary, however, to allow them
to use all the unfenced lands in the district, and the Indians wcr«'
allowed to carrv whatever stock thev had on the unfenced lands.
Senator Lane. Then, the Indians' unallotted land was allowed to
go into the general range?
Mr. Weekley. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Where it was not fenced?
Mr. Weekley. That is right.
2044 CEOW INDIAN EESEEVATION.
Senator Lane, Were the Indians allowed to fence after the lease
was made up?
Mr, "VVeekley. As I recall, there was nothing in the lease about
that ; but so far as I know they were always to fence anj' lands they
wished to use themselves; that is, they could fence their allotments
any time.
Senator Lane. Was the lessee allowed to sublease?
Mr. Weekley, The lease contains the provision against subleasing.
, Senator Lane. Was that provided in the lease?
Mr. Weekley. It was provided that the land might not be sub-
leased Avithout the consent of the department.
Senator Lane. When was the leasing sj^stem changed to a system
of permits?
Mr, Weekley. The grazing privileges on the Crow Reservation
now are let under the permit system.
Senator Lane. Why?
Mr. Weekley. I do not know, sir, just why the change was made.
I did not know anything about it then.
Senator Lane. AVhat is the difference between one of those per-
mits and the lease?
Mr. Weekley. The permit merely allows stockmen to bring so
many head of cattle on the range and to pay for them at a stipulated
price per head.
Senator Lane, Did you ever figure out to see what was the aver-
age per acre for the land ?
Mr. Weekley. It runs about the same as formerly
Senator Lane. AVhat was the object in making the change?
Mr. Weekley. It gave the department the opportunity of cancel-
ing a permit any time they saw fit; that is, the permit itself contains
provision that it is revocable in the discretion of the Secretary of
tlie Interior.
Senator Lane. Do you know of one ever being revoked?
Mr. Weekley. We are revoking Heinrich's district No. 5, as to
part of it.
Senator Lane. What was the reason?
Mr. Weekley. Because the Indians needed part of their district
for their OAvn cattle which they were going to put on this summer.
Senator Lane. For the new herd?
Mr. Weekley. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. What leases are now in force, if you know,
on the Crow Reservation, and what permits?
Mr. Weekley. There is no lease of tribal land in force at present.
Their permits cover districts Nos. 1 and 2, and there is the per-
mit on district No. 4, and one on No. 6, and the question of read-
justing of the permit on No. 5 is now under consideration. We have
fllso entered into negotiations for granting a permit on district No.
8, but that is not completed.
Representative Burke. I understand you to say that notwith-
standing the provision in the Rea leases that were made and other
similar leases containing that provision, it was the policy and the
practice of the department to allow the lessee to use the unfenced
allotments the same as tribal lands?
Mr. Weekley. Yes, sir; it is the practice to do that, because it
was impracticable to attempt to keep them off of the allotments.
J
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2045
Kepresentatiye Bdrke. ^Vhat information, if anv. have Mm as to
whether or not the office has a system hv which' thev know h..w
many cattle a lessee has npon the reservation. nncU'i- the permit
system, so as to know whether he pays f..r all the cattle he has upon
the reservation, and what that system is i
Mr. AVeekley. The permit form contains the provision that the
permittee aviU twice a year, either himself or bv competent foreman,
make sworn aflidavit as to the number of cattle on the ran-^e at the
beginning of the six months' period, the number kei)! on it the
number at the end of the six months' period.
Representative Burke. Is that checlved 'I
Mr. AVeekley. Yes; there has been on a few reservations. I ilo
not know whether it has on the Crow. If you have any reason to
doubt the correctness, you can put someone on and count and ^et
the correct number.
Representative Burke. As a general proposition, a large cattle
company would be unable to state definitely how manv catUe there
might be on the reservation, and it would be practically impossible
for the office itself to ascertain definitely. It would' have to be
estimated to some extent, and then the number would ultimately
be verified probably by the shipments. Do they keep any account
of the shipments?
]Mr. AVeeklev. I do not know whether they do at Crow or not.
Representative Stephens. Is it not a fact that there is a railroad
running through this reservation that cattle arc shipped in (»n and
shipped out?
Mr. AVeekley. Yes; I believe there is.
Representative Stephens. Are there not inspectors up there to
see that cattle are healthy when they are brought into this reser-
vation?
Mr. AA^eekley. I can not say as to that. I do not kno\v.
Representative Stephens. That is the evidence heretofore, and
these are steer cattle, are they not, which are put on under lease ar-
rangement for pasturing by the head, those that are brought from
the south?
Mr. AA^eekley. I do not know; as to that, either.
Representative Burke. Do these leases contemplate under the j)er-
mit system that the cattle may be put on the reservation ?
Mr. AA^eekley. AVell, they provide that in this way— it seems they
would. The permit form contains the provision that calves under
6 monts cf age will not be charged for, but after that age they will
be counted.
Mrs. Grey. It is all mixed up.
Representative vStephens. If the cattle are shipi)ed in on trains,
it would be an easy matter for the inspector to count them. Do
thev count them as they come off the train?
Mr. AA^eeklev. Indeed, I can not say as to that. I do not remem-
ber that part of it.
Representative Stephens. And when shipped out to market are
they also counted? They know the number of cars m the train
and know the number of cattle they put in each car. do they not '.
(No response.) , . i »
Representative Stephens. As a matter of fact you do not know f
Mr. AA''eekley. I do not know.
2046 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Representative Stephens. That is the evidence heretofore, I re-
member distinctly. Now, there is a division fence, which has been
spoken of to-niglit. that divided the lands, I think, of district No. 3.
Mr. Weekley. District No. 5.
Representative Stephens. District No. 5, from where the main
body of the Indians had their allotments, did it not?
Mr. Weekley. No, sir; it is not my understanding. They put
the Indian cattle on what is knowm as the I. D. range, and that is all
under permit.
Representative Stephens. Indian cattle, I mean?
Mr. Weekley. Yes, sir. That was formerly imder permit to Hein-
rich. We are diminishing his range, compelling him to take all of
his cattle south of this fence, and the Indian cattle are being put to
the north of the fence, so as to keep them entirely separate.
Representative Stephens. The object was to keep the Indians'
cattle separate from the lessees' cattle?
Mr. Weekley. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Then it was for the benfit of the Indian
as well as for the benefit of the cattle owner that this fence was built?
Mr. Weekley. I think so.
Representative Stephens. And that was the object of building it?
Mr. Weekley. That was the object of building it.
Representative Stephens. How many cattle did those Indians
own of their own — cattle, horses, and sheep, etc.? Do they own a
lot of stock?
Mr. Weekley. I could not tell how many.
Representative Si'ephens. Do they run on the commons in connec-
tion with the lessees' cattle?
Mr. Weekley. They have been running in connection with the
permittees' cattle.
Representative Burke. In this division of what you call "Area
No. 5," have you any information as to which portion of it is the
most desirable?
Mr. Weekley. Well, I do not know as to that. It is claimed that
the southern part allotted to Heinrich would carry an average of
7,500 cattle. His permit formerly called for 23,000. So, according
to that, the northern part would be the much more desirable. I do
not know the country myself.
Representative Burke. You do not Imow what prompted the
division to be made at the point where the fence is located, and why
the Indians were to be assigned the portion north of the fence?
Mr. Weekley. No, sir; I do not know just why that was made.
Representative Burke. Do you have any information as to the
contemplated plan of making leases now without including this pro-
vision that has heretofore been in leases?
Mr. Weekley. Well, we have no leases at present up there on
Crow. This permit form contains no provision as to the allotted
land, and no provision as to subleases.
Representative Burke. Then, that provision is not put in the
leases made to what you call "permittees"?
Mr. Weekley. No.
Representative Burke. On the theory that you have the right
Mr. Weekley. To revoke at any time.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2047
Mr. Weekley. No, sir.
Representative Burke. Is there any sngj^restion to the permittee
Allotted lands? ^''^'^''^^'^ ^"^ '*"'^''' ^^'^ ^^"^^^ ^" range on un fenced
Mr. Weekley. No sir; it has been the custom to allow the permit-
tee to range his cattle on all unfenced land, either allotted or un-
allotted.
Representative Burke. It is the intention of the oflice. wiien they
lease to a permittee, to allow him to use these unfenced allotments i
Mr. Weekley. That has been the ( ustouL
Representative Burke. You are not a lawver?
Mr. Weekley. I can hardly call mvself a lawyer.
Representative Burke. AVliat do you think about the legal |)ropo-
sition as to whether or not it can be done legally ?
Mr. Weekley. I do not see hardly how you" could keep the cattle
off; that is the point, Mr. Burke.
Representative Burke. That is not the question; that is another
matter. The question is, Have we a right to do it?
Mr. Weekley. Have w-e the right to lease the allotted lands with-
out the Indians' consent? I do not think so myself.
Representative Stephens. Do you think the lessees would have the
right to cut the Indians' fences and let their stock go in and destroy
the Indians' hay?
Mr. Weekley. Certainly not.
Representative Stephens. And would they not have the right of
suit against them for trespass?
Mr. Weekley. They would.
Representative Sitiphens. Would it not be the duty of the agent to
prosecute and recover civilly?
Mr. Weekley. It w^ould.
Senator Lane. And if the department never did anything of the
sort, could you see how the Indian would benefit?
Mr. Weekley. Would not benefit?
Senator Lane. Would not be a benefit to the Indian in that — if that
has never been done it might as well not exist, so far as the Indians
are concerned?
Mr. Weekley. So far as the Indians are concerned it would give
them no benefit unless the department followed the maitcr up.
Mrs. Grey. Did you ever know^ of a prosecution of that kind on
Crow ?
Mr. Weekley. I have never handled a case of that kind on Crowf
Representative Burke. You would hardly expect the department
to bring proceedings when they have authorized the lessee to go on
there uncomplained of. • • i / •
Senator Lane. Not to cut the fen-e and use the grass inside of it.
Representative Burke. That would be difllcult to prove.
Senator Lane. And destroy the hay and cut fences, of course,
would be taking the personal propertv of the Indian.
Representative Burke. You and I know all the i)ig companies do
it. This is onlv confirming the same state of facts.
2048 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
TESTIMONY OF H. V. CAMPBELL, CLERK, INDIAN OFFICE.
(The witness was duly sworn by Senator Lane.)
Senator Lane. What is your position?
Mr. Campbell. I am a clerk in the Indian Office.
Senator Lane. Have you had anything to do with the leases dis-
cussed here?
Mr. Campbell. I was on the desk for a period of about two years,
Senator, up until about three or four months ago.
Senator Lane. Do you know anything about these individual
leases that have been made with Heinrich, Kae Bros., etc.?
Mr. Campbell. I am somewhat familiar with the permits on dis-
tricts Nos. 1, 2, 4, and 5 and C ; yes.
Representative Burke. Do you know anything, Mr. Campl-ell,
with reference to the conditions that pertain on this reservation
with reference to any character of lease that will add to statements
that have been made by Mrs. Grey and Mr. Weekley?
Mr. Campbell. I hai-dly think so. I think Mr. Weekley covered
the ground pretty well from an Indian Office standpoint. I suppose
that I was called up here for the reason that I handled these grazing
matters between the time that he gave up the desk and when he
assumed it again.
Representative Burke. Can you give us any information more
definitely than he did with relation to system that obtained in the
Indian Office looking toAvard the collection of the amounts that les-
sees may owe under this permit system, as to just how that is done,
so that the lessees will pay for all the stock that they put on the
reservation?
Mr. Campbell. The permit system calls, as Mr. Weekley testified,
for payment either annually or semiannually at so much per head,
and the permit also has a clause penalizing the permittee for over-
grazing. So far as the collection of the amounts due on those per-
mits is concerned, of course I am not familiar with the system
employed by the superintendents. I only assumed that the super-
intendent makes the proper collection and uses the necessary methods
in determining whether the man is abusing his privileges. In the
Indian Office, of course, it is for the accounting department. The
disbursing agents submit liability cards along with permits executed,
calling for so much money, and they in turn subsequently sulmiit
quarterly reports, and those matters are all checked up in the ac-
counting section or division, with which I have nothing to do.
Representative Burke. Do you know whether the legal phase of
leasing has been considered with reference to the right of the de-
partment to lease or allow lessees to use the lands that are allotted
to individual Indians Avithout their consent?
Mr. Caisipbell. No, sir; I do not know, for the reason that I did
not have anything to do with the leasing of allotted lands, and the
matter was never called directly to my attention until Mrs. Grey
recently took the matter up with the Indian Office.
Reiiresentative Burke. But the lease provided that the lessees
should he bairod if the lessee did use the allotted lands, did they not?
That has been stated here.
Mr. Campbell. I am not entirely sure that that is so. Of course
the lease form will speak for itself.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2049
Representative Burke. Have you any information as to whether
or not it Avas the jjractice of the oilice to consent that the lessees
mio-ht use these unienced allotments?
Mr. Campbell. That is my understanding. Mr. Burke, that that
was allowed.
Eepresentative Burke. But you have no information us to whether
the legal phase of it was considered, as to whether it was within
the law.
Mr. Campbell. I have no information or knowledge on that point
I have myself never considered that proposition of whether it wus
legal.
Representative Stephens. Mr. Campbell, the leasing system has
been in vogue for a good many years, has it not, by tl»e Indian I)e-
partment, on a good many reservations?
Mr. Campbell. I have been in the Indian Ottice for about four
years, and it was in vogue when I went in, although I did not have
anything to do wdth that work from the beginning.
Representative Stephens. It permits the person owning the stock
to put so many head of cattle on for a year's time. It is for a year,
is it not ?
Mr. Campbell. Are you speaking of the permits?
Representative Stephens. The permittees.
Mr. Campbell. Under the present system contracts are entered
for a year or such other period as the Secretary might determine.
Representative Stephens. It might state the kind of stock, whether
horses, cattle, or sheep.
Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. And the number.
Mr. Campbell. The kind of stock and tlie number and the rato
per head.
Representative Stephens. And the rate per head, you ^lo that?
Mr. Campbell. And the rate per head.
Representative Stephens. With the usual clause to prevent over-
stocking.
Mr. Campbell. How is that ?
Representative Stephens. With the usual clause in all these per-
mits that the land shall not be overstocked.
Mr. Campbell. Exactly.
Representative Stephens. And when you lease l)y the acre or by
the bulk, they have this other provision in it that it .shall not be sub-
leased?
Mr. Campbell. The lease form has that provision against sub-
leasing.
Representative Stephens. The permit form. Woidd it be i>o5siblo
to carry into effect the other form of lease? The lease form would
be different. You have got to have a different form.
Mr. Campbell. Entirely different.
Representative Stephens. You can not use the same form!
Mr. Campbell. You can not use the same form.
Representative Burke. Do you know,Mr.Campl)ell— if you do not
1 would like Mr. Weekley to state what he knows about it— as to tho
system that has recently been put in operation for the leasing of
surplus Indian lands that are open to homestead entry under con-
gressional act that authorizes the disposition of the surplus lands?
'2050 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Mr. Campbell. I could give the commission some information on
that probably.
Representative Burke. Make a brief statement. I would like to
get some information about that as that is connected with this sub-
ject.
Mr. Campbell. In 1912, along in July, the department ap-
proved some regulations provided for the leasing or rather the
use of grazing lands within Indian Reservations where the Indians
had ceded the lands. As a matter of fact, they are not actually
ceded, as I understand it. In other words, they are lands that the
Indians have agreed to sell or dispose of, and the Government acts
as trustee to sell such lands.
Under the decision of former Secretary Adams it was held that
such lands — in other words that the Indian title was not extinguished
until the lands were finally entered and sold by the Government for
the Indians. So, following tlie promulgation of those regulations,
the Indian Office and the department undertook to lease all — -or I
should say the form under the permit system allows the use of such
lands for grazing purposes on the various reservations and, so far
as I know, that system is in effect on some reservations now.
Representative Burke. Do those leases provide that when a home-
stead entry is made that the lessee then ceases to have the right to
graze upon that much of the area ?
Mr. Campbell. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. On the same theory that you exempted
from the terms of the leases that were made a few years ago the In-
dian allotments?
Mr. Campbell. Somewhat.
Senator Lane. What about the rental? Do you know anything
about the price they are paying for those lands ?
Mr. Campbell. The rate per head there is according to the char-
acter of the land.
Senator Laise. What would it average per acre, about, if you
know? Did you ever figure it out?
Mr. Campbell. Senator, it is usually on a per capita basis, from
$1 to $2.50 a head for large stock per annum.
Senator Lane. That would include a definite and certain number
of cattle and by a little figuring you would find out. Did you ever
figure out to see what you are getting for that?
Mr. Campbell. I do not recall, but I think 5 or 10 cents an acre.
Senator Lane. That is the general average?
Mr. Campbell. That is about the average.
Senator Lane. Throughout the United States?
Mr. Campbell. Throughout the seven or eight reservations that
were involved.
Representative Burke. That is in the Northwest?
Mrs. Grey. We counted it up on the Crow Reservation and found
it was 5i cents.
Representative Burke. On reservations in our State it is from 4
to 0 cents an acre.
Mrs. Grey. They are very different kinds of range.
Representative Burke. A cattleman will take a calf 1 year of
age and mature it to 4 years at $3 per head per year. Those are the
prices in our country.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2051
Senator Lane. That is very reasonable
Mrs. Grey. They pay that?
Kepresentative Burke. Yes.
Mrs. Grey. But 'on Crow it was estimated that wla-n a calf eata
grass It was worth $45, and it would increase $20 a year on j;rass.
Senator Lane. I do not know anytiiini? about that. It seems to
be a pretty good increase.
Mrs. Grey. I had the figures from a cattleman nn the reserve who
said he would be willing to pay $20 a year a head and that he could
make it pay at that also.
Representative Burke. One thing I would like to find out fur our
information— we may want to go into this thing in detail— as to
what becomes of the money that is received from these leases.
Mrs. Grey. There you have got it.
Senator Lane. I think you can get all the light vou want on that
Mrs. Grey. I think you will be perfectly astounded when you see
where the money goes to.
Senator Lane. Do you know anything about the prices of grazing
land which belongs to the Indians compared with the prices which
the Government obtains for forest-reserve lands for grazing^
Mr. Campbell. From the information I have had and from all I
have heard and read, I think we get about 100 per cent more tlian
the Forest Service charges.
Representative Stephens. I will state that we have in our State a
leasing system, and have had for 20 years, and all of our public
lands — school lands now so declared — leased for 4 cents an acre, and
a man can lease from 1 to 4 sections of land, and there is between
20,000,000 and 30,000,000 acres leased.
Representative Burke. I think in the Osage Reservation, in Okla-
homa, they lease for about 50 cents an acre.
Representative Stephens. That is much better grass.
Representative Burke. Yes.
Representative Stephens. Our country is semiarid.
Representative Burke. I think, as a general proposition, that the
Indian Office has been getting pretty good rentals.
Representative Stephens. I think so.
Representative Burke. That has been my observation.
Representative Stephens. I do not know what they are getting in
the Mescalero Reservation. We went out there last fall and ran
over that reservation. It seems to me they are getting 80 cents there.
I think some cattleman told me he was paying that. That is in New
Mexico.
Senator Lane. Mr. Linnen, can you add anything to what has al-
ready been said ?
Mr. Linnen. I hardly think so, Senator, for the reason that I
have just recently gone over to the Indian Oflice, within the past
couple of months. I have never made an investigation on (Vow
Reservation, and my information that I have obtained so far has
been obtained solely "througli the records of the office. I have made a
memorandum for the commissioner with relation to the granting of
further permits, a copy of which Mrs. Oi-ey has. If yon care t(. have
that in the record I would be very glad indeed to put it in.
35601— PT 15—14 16
2052 CROW INDIAN RESEEVATION,
Representative Stephens. I think it would be advisable for that
to go in.
Mrs. Grey. I think it should go in ; that is what I intended to use
as a basis of my talk, but it was ruled out.
Mr. LiNNEN. If you care, for the benefit of the members, I will
read it.
Representative Burke. Is it very long?
Mr. Linn en. It is very short.
Senator Lane. I have not seen it.
Mr. Linn EN. It is a memoranda relative to Crow Reservation,
made by Inspector E. B. Linnen, for Commissioner Sells, is dated
May 2, 1914, and reads as follows (reading) :
MEMORANDtTM RELATIVE CROW RESERVATION, BY INSPECTOR E. B. LiNNEN.
May 2, 1914.
The act of Congress approved April 11, 1882, as contained on pages 42 and
43 of volume 22, United States Statutes at Large, specifies that allotted lands
to members of the Ci'ow Tribe of Indians shall not be subject to alienation, lease,
or encumbrance, either by voluntary conveyance of the grantee or his heirs, or
by the judgment, order, or decree of any court, nor subject to taxation of any
character, etc., for a period of 25 years and until such time thereafter as the
President may see fit to remove the restrictions, which shall be incorporated
In each patent.
I am informed that the original allotment roll of allottees under this act has
disappeared from the files, and it is contended by Mrs. Grey that allotments
of lands other than the original lands allotted have been substituted, and
patents issued under what is known as the Burke Act of 1906.
It is also contended that the original allotment papers under the acts of 1882
and 1891 were in the hands of Chief Supervisor Holcombe, having been turned
over to him by the then Secretary of the Interior Ballinger. It also appears
that office letters have been written to the various Indians who desired to make
individual private leases to one John Booz or others, prohibiting such leasing
or fencing of their allotments, and that the general lease of tribal lands has
Included these allotted lands of various Indians, for which no compensation
has been received and no moneys paid to the Indians whose individual allot-
ments are so used.
It is stated that the lease contracts of the cattlemen especially provide that
" in case of the allotments of land in severalty, it is agreed and understood that
this lease shall be void as to the lands so allotted." This exclusion of the
allotments, a very large majority of which are unfenced, permits the lessees
to graze their herds over these allotted lands free of cost, and according to
the present superintendent there are about 2,300 of these allotments of 320
acres each.
Instances have occurred where the Indians could lease their allotments but
are prohibited from doing so, or from fencing same for such purpose, or leasing
those which are fenced. This policy was outlined by the superintendent and
approved by the Indian office for the stated reason that these leases of individual
allotments to small stockmen would interfere with the large lessees, and that
to fence off a part of the range to the personal advantage of allottees would
work a great disadvantage to the tribe as a whole. " In the judgment of this
office the best and most practical arrangement would be to have it understood
that the large grazing permits include the allotted grazing lands which are
unfenced. With this understanding the lessees would be willing to pay a higher
rental, being assured that the water which is now open and available would
remain so during the term of their lease."
When it is taken into consideration that the leases are made at so much
per each head of stock, and that the number of head of stock permitted to be
grazed is based on the estimated area of the tribal lands and does not embrace
about 2,300 allotments of 320 acres each, it is readily seen that the allotted
Indians are not receiving payment for a very large area of land, and neither
Is the tribe receiving such payment, and further, the bids do not provide for
the actual acreage, and generally the only persons acquainted with these facts
and this advantage to be thus gained are the lessees who have been taking
advantage of same for years past.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2053
The present leases in vogue likely extenrt f..i- .... .i>
appears tbat leases eoukl he ma le hv or for , ' ^^ ' ' ^'V •'■^''•■^- ^' ""^^
allottees whereby thev n'gl t sSe ^^o, .iJoUu^^^ ""'"I"'" "^ """^ '''"»•
and it further appears that certain ne ■'.on sw.n? •u-""' ^'T '"'■•' '•'"^"'•
ments so leased for a term o^vi x -^S n, o f "'^ '" ^^'''*' ^^'' •'"•"■
at the termination of. say, tive ^:;;rs: ^^IX ^1 .JS'^ITtu; ^iZZl::' """"'*
th^^s^^!.^? tiSs^r-^nsiS^;:: re^^,^i;r^;.r "iirrr' '-l-H-nns or
ments and sale of hay which ndihrbec.f„? 'n..,'"?!''^' "' '^Tl ""V''
benefit of these Indians. Hourly tSal^^^^li^^ ^^'.Ij^^^lllll..'^^: -
a milhon acres of individual Indian allotmenis s., eflVrteil k , w h, l"
ment is made by the present lessees who have had th/iTi s J or a ny
years back free of any expense. "lany
Further, the present permits on Crow contain n„ provision i.n.hlbithit; sub-
easmg, as I am advised, the former leases provided for. and c. „s . „e v s b-
leasing is carried on by the present lessees who receive .m.p.es 1 a h nn
increased price per head over that which they are paving. In this c neJ-tlon
see affidavit of John Rooz. who is subleasing from mV. Ilein'lh '1-^ m aS
should receive ful value and the lessees not be permitted to sul)let at a pr fit
as IS now unquestionably being done. i ui a i loui,
Furthermore, it appears that^lr. John Booz is now willing to pav for certain
grazing lauds which he is now suldeasing from Ileinrieh at a nuK-b gre-.ter
price to the Indians than they are receiving from said Ileinrieli. an.l in view of
same it would seem to be a matter of justice to tlie Indians and good business
judgment of this office to permit such leases which will bring the highest terms
to the Indians.
(Signed) K. n. Lin.nkn.
Chief Inspector.
Special note.— I very much doubt the wisdom of furnishing a coi)y of the
affidavit made by John Henry Booz to Z. Lewis Dalbv. attorney for M"r. Ilein-
rich, or to Mr. Heinrich, for the reason that this affidavit was given in conlidence
to the joint commission of Congress. I believe that .Mr. Heinrich sln.nld be
called upon to furnish information as to the exact amounts of money lie has
collected from said Booz for subletting grazing permit. I believe the furnish-
ing of said confidential affidavit will simply create trouble between these gentle-
men which is unnecessary and should be avoidal, and further I believe the fur-
nishing of a copy of said affidavit would be displeasing to the joint cou]iuis.sion
of Congress.
E. B. Lix.VEN. Chief Inspector.
(Special.)
.May 1. I'.tll.
Hon. Cato Sells,
Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C.
My Dear Mr. Commissioner: You will recall that when Mr. F. M. Heinrich
and I were in your office about two weeks ago you referred to some coniiilaint
of some kind filed by a man nsmed Booz, which you state<l you desired to take
up with Mr. Heinrich while he was in the city. Subsequently, however, wiien
Mr. Heinrich was about to leave for Montana you informed us that you were
not yet rejidy to take the matter up with him, and I ropliiHl on his behalf that
whenever you should be ready to do so I should be glad for you to conuiiunl-
cate with me. as Mr. Heinrich's attorney, regarding the matter. Since then I
have not heard from you ui)on the subject.
Being without any information as to the nature of the complaint to wlilch
you referred. I do not desire to press the matter unduly upon your attention,
but merely to confirm in this way my informal statement t<> you tliat I slinll
be glad to take the subject up with you on Mr. Ileinrieli's behalf wlienever you
are ready to give it your attention.
In the meantime, I beg to inquire whether there is on (lie in your olllce any
alleg.ition or charge by one John Booz in relation to Mr. V. M. Ileinrieli which
would, if true, injure or tend to injure Mr. Heinrich; and if s<i. to rnjuest o|v
portunity to examine the same with a view to such action as it may be right
and proper that Mr. Heinrich should talce in reference thereto.
Very respectfully,
Z. T-Kwis I>Mnv.
Attorney for /•'. M. Heinrich.
2054 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Senator Lane. The commission will now adjourn, to meet at the
call of the chairman.
(Thereupon, at 11 o'clock p. m., the joint commission stood ad-
journed to meet at the call of the chairman.)
TH^JESDAY, JUNE 4, 1914.
Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs,
Washington^ D. G.
The joint commission met in room 128, Senate Office Building, at
7.30 o'clock p. m.
Present: Senators Lane (presiding) and Townsend and Represen-
tatives Stephens, Carter, and Burke.
FURTHER STATEMENT OF MRS. HELEN PIERCE GREY.
Senator Lane. Mrs. Grey wanted to call attention to individual
cases, and tie up her evidence together — some other contracts with the
one which was considered the other night. What did you want to
take up to-night?
Mrs. Grey. In discussing this matter the other night we did not
get down to the present time, and to show that this policy is still in
operation I thought I would read the last letter that I can find on
the subject, of January 3, 1914, into the record, to show that it is still
continuing and that it is still the policy of the Indian Bureau, and,
in fact, more strenuous now than it ever has been before.
Senator Townsend. What letter do you refer to?
Mrs. Grey. A letter that was written by the Indian Office, signed
by Mr. Meritt, to Little Nest, of Wyola, Mont.
Senator Townsend. To whom is it written?
Mrs. Grey. Little Nest, who is an Indian on the reservation.
Representative Burke. Have you Little Nest's letter to him ?
Mrs. Grey. Yes.
Representative Burke. Let us have his letter first, if you have it
there.
Mrs. Grey. I have.
(The witness read the letter referred to, as follows:)
Wyola, Mont., December 13, 1913.
The Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. C.
Dear Sir : I hereby request yonr consent to lease to John Booz allotments
belonging to myself and family for three years (description of allotments at-
tached). Mr. Booz agrees to pay me 20 cents an acre for all of land he
pastures, and agrees to pay me market prices for all of oats I can raise at the
granary, and $6 per ton for all the hay I can put up. He will pay $30 per
month for my team to feed the stock. My land is all fenced with three wires.
Mr. Heuirich does not lease my land and Mr. John Booz has made good offer
for lease my pasture, and I want him to take it soon as possible. I want him
to pay the lease money direct to me and not through the agent, as I need the
money badly for the winter.
Yours, truly.
Little Nest (thumb mark).
CEOVV INDIAN KESEBVATION. 2055
2, towusbip 9 soutli, rauge 33 east. "' ""^ ""'"' "»" '"^•"''"
895, Pretty Enemy has the norfli )i-iif ^f fi,« „ ..i
east quarter of the southwest qii^e'e^^^^^^^^ t^l T''^^ ""^ "'" ""'•^'>-
S90, Bull Goes Hunting has the soiSxi 7... Vo^' ,?""'• ''""K^ •*« ^-nst-
southeast quarter sectional, toJ^^mlXZl^V'S^^l^t:''' ""^ '"'' "' ^*^«
lof ^'s^SS;.^tSS ^SS;^^;;:;: ^^ ;^-o5l.east -^tarter section .. an.
toShf;^ stS'^rante 33^:ast.^ ^'"^ ""''' ^' ^'^ ^^'"--^ ""-ter section l.
Mrs. Gret. An illegal sublessee.
someMydse'r ^''^'"^' ^" '" ^"bleasing under this Iloinric-l. or
T^^""^' nS^^\7''' ^^'- ,^^^^ originally leased direct fron. the
Indian Office the range that he is now using, what tliev call the
dry corner." It is a section of about 50,000 acres, with the moun
tains between him and the rest of district No. 5, so. to ^et to this
dry corner, you have to go clear around through Wvomim- and as
they have to pay a certain inspection tax, of course nobody on the
reservation could possibly use that land. Until about lOlo it was
held separately, but when Mr. Bostwick came in and took control
ot the reservation Mr. Booz was compelled to pay a verv lar'^e price
for the land, about $4 a head, for his cattle for half 'of the vear
But It IS only a winter range, and Mr. Heinrich only pays ^2.1!) to
the Indians for a whole year's range, and as Mr. Heinrich charges
Mr. Booz for shipping he is making a very good thine; indeed off'^of
Booz m the corner. To get away from that Mr. B(m>z wants to
lease direct from the Indian Bureau and the allottees.
(The witness then read the following letter:)
[Land contracts, 148075-1:^. Application to lease]
.Tani'aky li. r.il4.
Little Nest, Wj/ola, Mont.
My Friend: I have received and considered your letter, diitinl December
]3, 1913. requesting that you be allowed to lease .voiir allctnieiit and several
other allotments belonging to members of your family, to Mr. .Tolm 15<»oz,
for a period of three years, on certain terms ar.l coiidilion.s.
It appears from a report recently received from the siqierliiteiideiir at
Crow Agency that you submitted a similar :n>pl'<"i''"" t" him, wiiich was
denied. The office has also recently received a commimicalion fnaii .Mr. \\(M)z
applying to lease a number of Crow allotments in a Imdy for grazing purpo.-^os.
Some time ago the office instructed the superintendent at Crow Agency to
prohibit all leasing of allotments in groujis for grazing ptirposos simatotl
within the tribal pastures. This decision was re.iched after tiie matter iind
been very carefully considered, the principal ol)jection l)eing tliat if such
leasing were permitted outsiders would .secure control of groniis of ailolnienls
taking in favorable wntering places, which would damage the Interests of th»'
tribal permittees. The danger of cattle breaking out and straying from the
inclosures onto the tribal pastures would also be very great. If Mr. Itooz «»r
any other responsible applicant should desire to lease the allotments in »piPH-
(ion for farming purposes, the otfice would consider such a|»|'litatlon. but for
the reasons above given you are advised that the otiice deems it for Jhe best
interests of the Crow Indians, as a tribe, to deny the application stibmlfte*!
by you.
Your friend,
R H. Mkritt.
(12-A. N. B.-27. ) Assistaul C'lmmisxioncr.
2056 CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Parkman, Wyo., December 10. 1913.
Hon. Commissioner Sells :
You can see by these papers that the Indinns and families of these lands
want to lease me these allotments. I will comply with these terms if you see
that the Crows will be benefited. I am anxious to get this laud. Can give you
any kind of bond that is required.
Respectfully,
John H. Booz.
[Laud contracts 146735-1913. H. Y. C. Application to lease.]
December 27, 1913.
Mr. John H. Booz, Parkman, Wyo.
Sir: Receipt is acknowledged of your letter dated December 10, 1913, inclos-
ing what purports to be the application of a number of allottees on the Crow
Reservation. Mont, to lease their lands to you under certain terms and con-
ditions. You say that if the lands are leased to you. you will comply with the
terms named, and that you can give any kind of bond that is required.
In response I have to advise you that the olhce recently received a report
from the superintendent, touching upon this matter, wherein it was stated,
among other things, that some of tlae Indians named in the communication
inclosed by you had made application to lease their lands for grazing purposes.
It appears that the allotments in question lie in a contiguous group close to and
along the river, and that it was proposed to fence them in one body and run
stock thereon. Innsmuch as the office has heretofore issued instructions to the
superintendent prohibiting the leasing of allotments in groups for grazing
purposes, your application will necessarily have to be denied.
The reason for this is that the allotments are within one of the tribal pastures
now under permit, the holder of which has the right to all the range not sep-
arately fenced, including allotted lands. It would be unfair to the permittee to
allow the leasing of allotments in groups within his pnsture controlling favor-
able watering places, which might result in much damnge to his interests.
Aside from the mere occupation of the lands, it would be almost impossible to
prevent the stock from running on the tribal pasture. The office will be glad to
consider any leases covering these allotments or others similarly situated for
farming purposes only, and if you are interested in securing any leases for sucE
purpose it is suggested that you take the matter up direct with the superin-
tendent at Ci'ow Agency, to whom a carbon copy of this letter is being sent.
Respectfully,
B. B. Meritt,
Assistant Commissioner.
(12-H. V. C.-23.)
[Land contracts, 14.3525-13. H. V. C. Unauthorized leasing by allottees.]
December 19, 1913.
Mr. Winfield W. Scott,
Superintendent Croiv School.
Sir: The office has received and considered your letter of December 4 last,
with reference to informal grazing leases being made by some of the allottees-
holding land under your jurisdiction without advice or .-ipproval and contrary
to the order contained in office letter of ISIay 27, 1912 (49059-12). to which you
refer. It is understood thr.t in some cases these informal leases or agreements
are made by Indians who have control of a group of allotments beionging to
mei^ibers of their families, and that in such cases the tract embraces favorable
watering places, being first fenced and thereby excluded from the area included
in the permits covering the several tribal pastures. You refer to several
specific cases which have come to y<>ur attention, saying that the practice is
rapidly spreading over the reservation, and you recommend that the jiravious
authority of May 27, 1912, be approved.
As stated by you, previous to the date of the authority above referred to, the
matter was fully reported to the office, and after careful consideration action
was taken as indicated. It was believed then that such action was for the
best interests of the tribe in general without regard to any i)articular allottee,
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2057
and that it was only fair to tlie parties liokling permits .m tril.-,l l-.nds whi.-h
of course, include a 1 lands not under fouoa t/fV, ""» ''i».ii l.lnu^. wUk-h,
that the Indians should be encoTO^^^^ ''I'"' •^r'* •''•'"«"»
the use of thpir nwn cfnT.!- nrT/i ^-l ^ . ^^ ^''^" >-''■»'•'"« iillotnuMitK for
cne use or tneir o\\n stock, and you were instructed iici-ordiuclv
In view of the conditions now reported you are instiuctt;i" to Invoke the
authority previously given you regarding this matter, a 1 to .r I hit he
leasing by allottees of their allotments in grou,.s for grazi, g pu rp, i^^ Y.,n
win take prompt action in all cases of this .-hanu-ter that im.y c nr'to you?
no ice, a«d cause to be removed from the reservation any stock belonging "J
outsiders found grazing with.mt proper .•Muh^ritv. reporting tbe f-.'i" t th«
office. •• iiiw
Respectfully,
K. H. MKUiri.
(12-H.V.C.-17.) ■lvW.^n,M-o.,.,-.W
Mrs. Grey. Now, this application was made in ilie v. ini.itiiiie.
Since then the family of Little Xest have suffered to siicli an extent
that two members of the family have died of starvation. They have
starved to death, and yet they all should be verv ricli, becaun' this
land is very valuable. It lies alone: the railroaJl and coiihl not be
better land. And they are thoroughly competent people: they are
honorable people and honest people, and if they were permitted to
have the use of their allotments, they would be prosperous. I know
them all personall3^
Now, that is one who was forbidden this last winter, •.\nother
one was Tom Doyle. Tom Doyle has seven diildren. They live up
on the reservation farther up, but not in the same district. The
lessee has occupied Tom Doyle's land for about 15 years. He is a
white man, married to an Indian woman, and a man a<j:ain.st wlicm
they have not been able to get anything until very recently, ahhougli
he has been subjected to every form of persecution because he wouhl
not submit easily to allowing them to use his family land. Diu'ing
this last winter he killed a cow with one of the Omaha Packing Co.^
brand on it.
Representative Burke. Who did?
Mrs. Grey. Tom Doyle — just a little while after this. The cow
was on his land illegally. The Omaha Packing Co. has no permit
on the reservation. The Omaha Packing Co. is, of course, owned
by the Cudahys in South Omaha.
His family was absolutely destitute; they had nothing in the
world to eat; the snow was deep; it was midwinter there. Wis
children were excluded from the county schools, althougli he was
paying a special school tax. His family lands are iUegally taxed;
he is paying a heavy tax; and 1 mile from his hou.se was a county
school where they were paying $00 a month to the teacher and there
were only four children in the school, and yet his chihlreii were ex-
cluded. 'He killed one cow and he is now in the penitentiary. He
was given the highest i^entence they could give, and ahhoiiiih you,
Senator Lane, asked Commissioner Sells to emph)y a hiwyer for
him, that was not done. He employed his own attorney, and
although the jury recommended that he be paroled, the ju<lge gave
him the fullest sentence he could. , , •
His familv now have moved down farther on .some of their «itlier
land. Mrs. Doyle wrote me a little while ago, and .she has n baby
that is only a week old now. Mr. Doyle has been in the peniten-
tiarv about a month. She wrote me tliat the U'.'^.^eo s emp!oy.vs
2058 CROW INDIAlSr eeservation.
were putting salt around her tent. She had taken this tent and put
up a little fence, trying to raise some vegetables, and this lessee's
emplo3''ees came and put salt around the tent to bring the cattle
there.
Senator Lane. I want to put in the record at this time that the
information came to me that the Doyle family were starving and
that this man Doyle had gone out and killed a range cow in order to
keep his family from starving to death ; that many of the other In-
dians, I had information, were hungry and were living upon mashed
potatoes and flour ground together
Mrs. Grey. That Mr. Booz had given much of it to them.
Senator Lane (continuing). That one man was offering to buy
such dead cattle as were to be found on the range and pay for them
when he had money. So I wrote the commissioner and said, " If
this man has killed a steer to keep his children from starving to
death, and if that is really true, I would ask that the department
send an attorney there to represent him in the matter." For if my
family were starving and a steer came along, I would kill it myself —
if that is the truth of it.
Mrs. Grey. There is no question of that being true.
Senator Lane. That is why I interceded for him and I would do
it again under the circumstances.
Senator 1'ownsend. Have you any other evidence of these things
you are saying?
Mrs. Grey. I have a letter from the attorney himself who tried the
case, and he said the judge was so prejudiced against him — I think
Mr. Linnen saw that letter. Wasn't it you?
Inspector Linnen. I do not remember seeing it.
Mrs. Grey. Anyway I had a letter from the attorney himself, and
I had a clipping from the newspaper that I gave to Senator Lane.
There is not a question about it. I have had it from many differ-
ent people there.
Representative Stepens. You stated it was a steer belonging to the
Indian ?
Senator Lane. No; it belonged to some lessee.
Mrs. Grey. The Omaha Packing Co.
Senator Lane. It was not his steer; he had no right to kill it,
even though he starved to death, I suppose.
Eepresentative Burke. What about this man's land? Did he have
the use of his allotment?
Mrs. Grey. No ; he never has been able to get the use of his allot-
ments.
Kepresentative Burke. Were they ranged over by the lessee ?
Mrs. Grey. Yes; and have been probably for 15 years. He has
never had but $100 that E. L. Dana paid him, and he got that only
after I asked Dana to pay it.
I will say further that Mr. Doyle was in such a desperate condi-
tion— his wife had a fee patent on her land, and she borrowed money
from a man by the name of Sheridan, a money lender, and he charged
them 12 per cent a montli interest, and when it had amounted to about
half the value of the land he foreclosed and sold it — the agent knew
all about it — and this man Hunter is lending to other Indians at the
same rate.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2059
Senator Toavnsend. Do you know whether the clej)artment has in
vestig-ated any of these charoes or not« "iiment nas m-
Mrs. Grey They have been before the department as thorouffhlv
as they could be, and Senator Lane, I think, t,.ok it up er^ ful v
with the commissioner. ' l'«-ih»jnuiiy
Senator Lane. I presented these facts to the department.
Mrs Grey. I have talked personally to the commissioner a n.im-
ber of times about it. I even had pictures of the Dovle c-hiMren
arid took hem to him and showed them to Mr. Linnen", and asked
that something be done for them.
Representative Stephens. Are they good lands?
Mrs Grey. Beautiful lands. They are underhiid with e..al, ri.'ht
upon the border of the reservation, just over from Wyomin-r The
whole country is settled up and range is very scarce; they are'^pavine
50 cents an acre just over the line. ' • &
Eepresentative Stephens. Was it leased for farming purnoses '
Mrs. Grey. No. «= i i • •
Representative Stephens. Has not the department let liim Umm- it ?
Mrs. Grey. No ; and he can not fence it.
Representative Stephens. The department would let him work
it if he would do it, would they not?
Mrs. Grey. No; he has tried to put in a ditch— the wav thev got
rid of him at the time, they would not let him have the' thrashing
machine. He was putting in wheat, and they would not let him have
the thrashing machine, and at the same time Heinrich, the lessee,
used the thrashing machine, and it burned up on his place. They
told Doyle he would have to haul his oats about 40 miles over the
hills.
Representative Stephens. So they would not let him work, and
they would not give him work to do?
Mrs. Grey. No.
Senator Lane. Or tools to work with.
Representative Stephens. He can get employment, can he not ?
Mrs. Grey. Yes; but he wanted to farm his own land.
Representative Stephens. Then he should have been able to make
a living?
Mrs. Gref. Oh, he did; in any but the wintertime. 'J'om has al-
ways made a good living. He went outside and hired a thrasher on
the outside, and came in and thrashed the Indians' grain.
Representative Stephens. There was no necessity lor his fiunily
to starve then?
Mrs. Grey. No; but he has been in jail since last December.
Representative Burke. I thought you said he went into jail be-
cause he stole something to keep them from starving.
Mrs. Grey. He did; but there is no work in the winter. Tliey
went up there in the wintertime.
Senator Townsend. Is this Mr. Booz the man wiu* was «lown
here sometime ago?
Mrs. Grey. Yes, sir; the same man.
Senator Townsend. He had some troul)le. or fcur of (ronbip. with
Heinrich ?
Mrs. Grey. Why, yes. He came down here and gave some infor-
mation, and right" after that Mr. Dalby— anyhow Mr. Heinri.-i> <">♦
here right off, and he knew all about it.
2060 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Senator Townsejsd. What was it? I have an indistinct recollec-
tion that Mr. Booz came into my office, and, I think, with you.
Mrs. Gref. Yes.
Senator Townsend. What was he fearful of?
Mrs. Grey. Why, he was subleasing, and they ordered him to get
his cattle off of the range in the middle of the season, and he could
not get them off without just losing everything.
Representative Burke. What is confusing me is what the duty
of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs was in the case of a white
man arrested on an Indian reservation — why, the Indian Office
should furnish him counsel and see that he had a defense.
Senator Lane. They probably did not have any more to do with
it than this, that if his family were under the control of the Indian
Office, and the Indian Office had charge of those lands
Eepresentative Burke. The Indian Bureau, however, could not
rightfully have any charge of lands that had been granted to an
Indian in fee.
Senator Lane. But if they had usurped charge of them, and in
consequence of his failure to obtain any profit from them his family
were going hungr}^ and he went out and killed a steer or cow, I can
see where a good Commissioner of Indian Affairs might, if it was in
his power, ask for a fair trial for that man.
Mrs. Grey. There was another point there. The children are all
minors. They are all under the supervision of the agent, and their
lands were being ranged over
Representative Burke. That is the part I am especially inter-
ested in.
Mrs. Grey. They were ranged over by a steer bearing the Omaha
Packing Co.'s brand, which has no lease on the reservation.
Representative Burke. Of course, if the Secretary of the Interior
grants a patent in fee to an Indian, it is not the duty of the Indian
Office to see that that compentent person does not dispose of his
estate for an inadequate consideration?
Mrs. Grey. No. But it is the childrens' land ; there were seven
children. They were, in fact, living on one of the boys' land — Rob's
land. It was on Rob's land where it occurred.
Senator Townsend. Are you familiar with this situation up there
at present?
Mrs. Grey. Very familiar ; yes, sir ; personally.
Senator Townsend, Now, suppose this Indian — what did you say
his name was ?
Mrs. Grey. Mrs. Doyle.
Senator Townsend. No ; the one you mentioned first.
Mrs. Grey. Oh, Little Nest.
Senator Townsend. Suppose Little Nest had leased his land to
Booz, as he wanted to do, and that Booz was a good lessee, and
had paid just as he agreed. Would that intefrere with the rights
of other Indians in their lands?
Mrs. Grey. Not at all; very much the contrary, because there is
scarcely an Indian on the reservation who is not trying to get control
of his land, and they can not do it. As I have ridden over the
district I have seen on Bright Wings's place — that is up on Rotten
Grass Creek — seven years ago I saw miles and miles of cedar posts,
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2061
where he came in and tried to put up a fence on his own land, and
he has not been permitted to do it.
Senator TowjsEXD Mr Meritt's letter that vou read indicated
that if this hand was leased, and other lands similarly situated, the
lessees under those leases from the Indians would Wt possession
of the water holes, or the water, and thus render without value
the rest of the land.
Mrs. Grey. Yes.
Senator Towksend. Is it possible that that could be done ^
Mrs. Grey. No; just look at the map. [Indicatinfj.]
Senator Townsekd. I am not trying to justify the act, because I
do not think they have any right to make them lease this land with-
out their consent.
Mrs. Grey. There are 3,000.000 acres in this reservation, and only
about one-third is allotted. You can see from the map that there is
water everywhere. This is not a dry country.
Representative Burke. Let me ask you a 'question right there. Is
it your idea that the Indians can individually be permitted to lease
their allotments, and that it would still be practicable for the Indian
Office to lease to large lessees the unallotted lands?
Mrs. Grey. Unquestionably.
Representative Burke. You think there would not be any con-
fusion result from it ?
Mrs. Grey. More than that, I think where they are getting $1 for
the reservation they would get $10 if they would let it that way,
because this is a very rich country. Montana and Wyoming are
great cattle and sheep countries. It is settled up. The railroad
goes right through this reservation. If they would let the local men
come in and lease — of course, you would have the question of the
old cattle barons right over.
Another thing, I would not want to see the Indians permitted to
lease their allotments to anyone who would not put a fence around
the allotment. Now, Mr. Booz, wherever he has offered to lease
an Indian allotment has agreed — and in all of these applications
you will find the agreement — that he will fence the allotment, then
lease it for five years, and turn it back with the fence on it. By
that time the Indian has been j^etting quite a little money, and he
has a place where he can hold his own home and his own stock. lie
is in quite a different position from what he is where the big lessees
occupy his land.
Senator Townsend. Are there any of those leases now in existence
where they run for a term of years?
Mrs. Grey. Yes; but they are all permits that can be terminated
at will. They all can be terminated.
Representative Burke. They are changing from the leasing system
to the permit system, are they not?
Mrs. Grey, they have been changed. The old lea.ses were very
strong and much more favorable to the Indians.
Senator Townsend. Now, if the department should terminate the.se
leases or permits, so as to allow the Indians the right to lease their
allotments, these large lessees would have no right of action, you
think, against the Indians?
Mrs. Grey. None whatever; because in every one of the permits
is that clause. Moreover, Senator Townsend, in every one of the
2062 CROW INDIAN EESERVATION.
permits there is the clause that the permit is void as to the allotted
land. That goes through every one of them.
Representative Burke. Mrs. Grey, have you the letter that was
read the other night, that was written on a former occasion with ref-
erence to the attitude and policy of the Department in refusing to
allow Indian allottees to lease, because it was stated it would inter-
fere with the large lessees ?
Mrs. Grey. Yes ; I have it here.
Representative Burke. Let Senator Townsend have that letter.
Senator Townsend. Before you get to that I want to get this
clear in my mind. What is done with the money that is obtained
from the lessees?
Mrs. Grey. It is, illegally and in violation of the law, used to pay
the agent, the farmers- — everything on the face of the earth.
Senator Townsend. Does any of it go to the Indians?
Mrs. Grey. I do not think they had an annuity payment out of
last year's money at all.
Senator Lane. They got the payment on April 16.
Mrs. Grey. Yes. I think they had none at all last year, so last
year they got nothing from it.
Representative Burke. You have that other letter there?
Mrs. Grey. Yes.
Representative Burke. The superintendent wrote a letter, and
then his recommendations were concurred in, as I remember. It is
right in line with the other letter you have already read.
Mrs. Grey. Shall I read it ?
Representative Burke. Yes; read it for Senator Townsend's
benefit.
(The witness read the letter referred to, as follows:)
[Lati'l couli'rtcts, 49059-1012. H. V. C. Crow grazing leases. 1
Department of the Interior,
Office of Indian Affairs,
Wn^hingtnn. May 27. 191S.
Mr. W. W. Scott,
Superintendent Crow School.
Sir: The office bas received and considered your letter dated May 13, regard-
ing the leasing of individual grazing allotments within the limits of the tribal
grazing districts on the reservation under your supervison. In connection with
the leasing of the tribal pastures your .iudgment is that the most practicable
arrangement would be to have it understood that the large grazing permits
include the allotted grazing lands vrhich are unfeneed. and you recommend the
issuance of an order by the department prohibiting the leasing of grazing allot-
ments, especially in groups, during the life of the tribnl lease.
Under the terms of the existing leases and permits covering the lauds in
question, all unused and unleased individual allotments (not separately fenced)
are included, the proceeds going into the tribal fund. At a hearing in this
office on March 27, 3912, a delegation of Crow Indi;ms to wliom the questions
of the grazing policy were submitted voted in favor of continuing the present
system (only one voting in the negative), and voted unanimously in favor of
putting uj) the leases for competitive bids.
On Mny I. 3912 (.34781-1912), the department autliorized the publication of
advertisenionts calliug for bids for grazing privileges under the leasing system
on districts num!)er('d 1 to (>, inclusive (except No. .3), for a three-year
period, beginning IVbruary 1, 1913. The bids are to be received until 2 p. m.
June 24, 1912, at the Crow Agency, and inunediately thereafter opened and for-
warded to this oflice with appropriate reconunondations as per the approved
form of proposal, a supi)ly of which was sent you for distribution.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2063
believed that tins procedure is bes^ ^r uie UU r^so tie .;:':;:„• w".,^
and that the Indians will readily acquiesce and c.,nf,.rn (hereto YouwU
r?rec?Svfbdcl^?"tr'\';T'l !:; ''^" '■^^"••^^1"^ ^"^'- ""^ esSr.ly 'ncqna^u
Every efiort should be made, however, to encouraKe the Iiufians to fence
their grazing allotments for the use of their own stock
Respectfully,
(5-HVC-'>7 ) ^' ^^' '^""^^''"' • I "*"«'••''"»' C'o»iwi*j«»<on<T.
Mrs. Grey. In other words, if one fences his cwn Ian. I he can not
have any annuity.
Now, here is tlie agent's letter
Representative Burke. He recommended substantiallv what you
read. Read that portion of Mr. Scott's letter where hJ states why
he thinks it is impracticable.
Mrs. Grey (reading) :
The situation is this: If these leases are allowed, thev will abs.>rb all the
water now available and the large tribal lessees will be V<. reed to retire, and
in their stead we will have to deal with some scores of small operators, who
will use the allotments for a base and forage over the entire range.
****♦•,
About 700 of the 2,300 allotments are now "dead Indian lands," and in all
of these hearings would be necessary in order to determine the heirs, to whom
rental would have to be paid, frequently in sums so small as to be out of nil
proportion to the work required. (Letter of W. W. Scott, superintendent.
Crow Agency, Mont., to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, dated May 13
1912.)
Senator Townsend. I think I understand clearly tlie conte.st be-
tween the department and the Indians on that proposition.
Mrs. Grey. Now, they say he may fence it all for his own stock.
The Crow Indians have no stock. I have the disbiir.sements iiere
from the Treasury to show the number of st(!ck that they have sold
in the last two years, but it would not be what 20,000 acres would sup-
port; so that they have no stock. That is solely Ix'cau.se they have no
place to put their stock. They can not get their allotments. Then,
in 1910, without the consent of the Indians — which was illegal — they
leased their grazing land to Heinrich, so that now lleinrich has tlie
land where their cattle have been running heretofore, and he brantls
and ships and handles their cattle for them.
Senator Townsend. Did not the Indians that were here want to
buy cattle, or want the Government to buy cattle for theni (
Mrs. Grey. The Indian Bureau is buying cattle for the Indians, I
suppose, to be delivered — probably being delivered now. They are
being thrown right in here [indicating on the map|. All «if this was
originally their range.
Senator Towxsend. Was there not opposition by somebody to their
buying cattle up there?
Mrs. Grey. I objected to their buying cattle last year, becau.se the
range had been fed over bv sheep all the winter, and because they
woiild have to throAV their" cattle right in with the Heinrich cattle.
It was Senator Stone who made the suggestion to Secretary Lane
that they put off the purchase. That was the time they said the
range had been eaten off bv the grasshoppers.
2064 CEOW INDIAN EESEEVATION.
Representative Burke. Hoav many cattle are on tlie reservation, or
have been, under permit or the leasino; system ?
Mrs. Grey. Nobody knows, Mr. Burke.
Representative Burke. About how many?
Mrs. Grey. I would not dare to try to guess.
Representative Burke. Several thousand?
Mrs. Grey. Oh, up in the neighborhood of 50,000. That was one
thing I was going to take up to-night. The number of cattle is never
counted. Nobody knows how many cattle are there. They are put
on and taken off all through the year. There is no data to show what
there is there.
Senator Lane. Have you more cases like the Little Nest case ?
Mrs. Grey. Yes. Bright Wings
Senator Lane. Can you call attention to them?
Mrs. Grey. I did the other night. It is every Indian on the reser-
vation practically.
Senator Lane. Mrs. Grey brought up the point that in leasing or
giving a permit for the use of this land, the land is let on the basis
of so much per head. Is that right ?
Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. And that the only means they have of knowing how
many head are going to be put upon the range is the estimate fur-
nished, not by the Indian Bureau or checked by any of their repre-
sentatives, but the statement of the lessee. That is accepted by the
oflEice, so far as the records show. That is what you were saying
to me?
Mrs. Grey. Yes.
Mr. jMeritt. We also take into consideration the recommendation
of the superintendent and the report of the superintendent.
Senator Lane. Not on the number of cattle, except the statement of
the lessee.
Senator Townsend. When Mr. Scott was here he testified on this
subject, and he said that the Indians themselves furnish men in the
branding and shipping seasons, etc., to go with them — —
Senator Lane. That is not the point. Senator Townsend. The
point Mrs. Grey makes is that in entering into these new permits,
which were entered into this year, and now accepted — ^are they not?
Mr. Meritt. Yes.
Senator Lane (continuing). That the only estimates thej^ have of
the number of cattle are the estimates furnished by the lessee, with-
out any countercheck or O. K. b}' any official of the Government, so
far as official documents show. Is that what you were making a
statement about?
Mrs. Grey. Yes; I have some testimony here. I would like to
answer Senator Townsend's statement there. They have two men
with each round-up wagon. How many of them were there ? About
eight. I think. They were all chosen by Heinrich, and they live at his
camp, and they are everyone of them men that the Indians do not
want there. In all these permits the lessee himself agrees to pay the
expenses. He should do it, but in spite of that they pay it out of
the Indians' fund. The Indians have practically no cattle there that
they are handling; they are handling the lessees' cattle.
Mr. Meriti\ I may say, Mr. Chairman, that on the Crow Reserva-
tion, as well as on other reservations, we have what are known as
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2066
round-ups. The cattle are counted by representatives of the lessees
as well as a representative of the Government ; and the lessees are
also required to submit affidavits as to the number of rattle thev have
on the reservation.
Senator Lane. What Mrs. Grey was callin*,' atteniion to wa- that
after making permits for this year you gave sucli permit for havinir
a round-up Avithout having counted in the cattle, but on tUo mere
statement of the lessee.
Mrs. Grey. And we have the affidavits here.
Senator Lane. And there is no check anywhere.
Mr. Meritt. Those cattle will be rounded up, and they will be
checked up, and if there are any surplus cattle on the reservation the
lessee will be required to pay for the surplus cattle.
Representative Stephens. They can not be rounded up uniil the
proper season.
Mrs. Grey, These cattle come in from the outside, and it has been
charged for the last 20 years that they run cattle there, and there
has never been any action taken, and nobody knows how many
cattle are on that reservation.
When I was there, two year ago, Indians came into the agent's
office, and this was the statement of the agent himself. I want to
read this into the record to show wdiat has been done. This evidence
was taken October 25, 1912. I went over the reservation at that
time; it was while I was with the Graham committee. I went over
the reservation at that time with the Indians, and there was such
complaint everywhere about these lessees' cattle. Mr. Scott was just
a new man there, and I wrote him a letter telling him I thought it
was unfair for me to be going around and seeing this, and I would
like to have him set a time to see these Indians in his office and listen
to the complaints they were making to me, and this hearing grew out
of that meeting.
I want to read the evidence that was taken the next day. This was
the stock inspector's evidence. Mr. Scott first questioned the wit-
ness
Senator Townsend, Who was the witness?
Mrs. Grey. Mr. Campbell. (Reading:)
(Mrs. Grey questiouing:)
Q. Mr. Campbell, what is your occupation?— A. Superintendent of live Fl.>ok.
Q, Your salary? — A. $100 a mouth.
Q. Are vnu a farmer, too?— A. Wliy. I am anything.
Q. Well", I don't understand what you mean.— A. It is this way: We have
work here that has got to he done, and there is no one to carry out th:it speohil
work, so I feel it is my duty that when anything cc-mes up. regar.lles.s ..f whnt
mv title is, that it is my duty to do the work when I can. , ., , ^ ,
Q. You say you have a title. What do you mean, exactly?— .\. Superin-
tendent of live stock. _ ,. , , . . ,n i „»
Q. What are the duties of the superintendent of live stock .'—A. To insi.cct
all live stock that is sold here by the Indians; to insi.ect before horses leave
Q, Y^ou never fail to inspect? You are never attending to soniething H»e
when horses or cattle are shipped?— A. I try to be there.
Q. Then, when the lessee is putting his cattle on the reservation, you are not
expected to count them? — A, Yes.
Q. You don't count increase in a lease?-A F irst year: no
Q. I mean the cattle paid for.-A. There they have the cattle that v>.Te In
't^BufyrSruo idef how many cattle you have on the reserv„„on?-A. I
do not know if I could give the number of cattle on the reservnlU.n.
2066 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Q. As au inspector, you should know? — A. Cattle counted at all should have
the number
Q. There are some lessees who care to pay for the maximum. Have you ever
read the lease? — A. I have seen copies of them. Mr. Spear has one and Mr.
Heinrich has the other.
Q. Do you inspect sheep? — A. Stock does not include sheep.
Q. Are you an inspector for the entire reservation? — A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Don't you Ivuow how they pay for their sheep? Has it never been called
to your attention as superintendent of live stock? Are you supposed to know
what the leases are? — A. Yes.
Q. You should know, then, what sheep are put off and what sheep are put
on. How can you inspect the stock unless you know these things? — A. I didn't
believe it is my duty. I know my duties.
He did not inspect any of the sheep on the reservation, because the
sheep were I'ot " stock." At another place he said, and the agent
agreed, that they had no data of any kind whatsoever to show how
many cattle or sheep were on that reservation.
Senator Lane. You made a complaint to the effect that in throw-
ing on these cattle for the Indians they would go in among the cattle
of the lessees?
Mrs. Grey. Yes.
Senator Lane. And then your complaint was, as I understood it,
that inasmuch as they had not counted the cattle of the lessee and
had only his count for it they would not know when they came to
separate them how many cattle he really had on there and they were
liable to lose
Mrs. Grey (interposing). Especially as it is the history of that
reservation that the Indians' cattle have disappeared and are disap-
pearing all the time.
Senator Lane. Now, is it not a fact that they made a lease for a
number of cattle which they do not count or estimate ?
Mrs. Grey. I do not know of any time since I have known of the
Crow Eeservation that there has been an official count made in the
Indian Office.
Senator Lane. Was there any in this last lease ?
Mrs. Grey. No, sir.
Senator Lane. Are the Indians' cattle going on to the same land
as these cattle?
Mrs. Grey. So far as I know they are going on there with this
man Campbell as live-stock inspector, and Jenkins is no better as
superintendent of live stock.
Representative Burke. Is it not the intention to put the Indians'
cattle up in this area north of that fence that ia being constructed ?
Mrs. (jREY. Yes ; but Heinrich's cattle have not been removed from
below the fence yet, they are in there and defy the Indians to get
them off.
You had the letter, Senator Lane, where he will have until July
to get them off. They will give Heinrich the right to ship off from
that land, and there is a universal charge against Heinrich that he
brands the Indians' cattle. We have a hide on the way here now
with the brand on it. There is no question that it is an Indian's
steer branded with Heinrich's brand.
Mr. Meritt. I might say that the Commissioner is requiring Mr.
Heinrich to remove his cattle now in order to make room for the
cattle purchased for the Indians. Mr. Heinrich has been required-
to remove his cattle by June 1, but I believe he said that would be
CKOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2067
physically impossible-he was getting the cattle elf as fast as he
could. The Commissioner exteixknl the time t(. .June 15, if I re-
member. \\ e are expecting the Indians" eattle to be shipped there
at almost any time. I do not know whi-ther thev are on the reser-
vation at this time or not.
Senator Lane. That is the comphaint Mrs. (Jrey made that tlie
lessee s cattle remained on the same range.
Mr. Meritt. I think that is not true. Mr. Chairman. The Indians'
cattle were not dumped in with the cattk^ of Mr. Ileinrich.
Senator Lane. I know; but thev are all on the same range are
they not?
Mr. Meritt. :Mr. Heinrich is required to move hi.s .atde above
the fence.
Senator Lane. But not until the last of June, and in the meantime
you are throwing cattle on the same side of the fence that his cattle
are now on?
Representative Burke. I do not think that is serious. They would
all be branded.
jNIrs. Grey. They are not all branded: and if the man has been
stealing the Indians' cattle
Representative Bi rke. You do not mean to say they are putting
Indian cattle on there without branding them?
INIrs. Grey. In my abstract of cattle sales there is $7,000 worth of
cattle, I think, of which pretty nearly $2,000 is unbranded : that i.s,
those that were shipped. Is not that right?
Senator Lane. Whom are you confirming this by?
Mrs. Grey. The Assistant Auditor from the Treasury.
Representative Stephens. Has he seen the cattle?
INIrs. Grey^. We have the abstracts of disbursements.
Representative Stephens. Whose cattle is it that are not branded?
Mrs. Grey". The Indians' cattle. They are branded " I D," but
nothing else.
Representative Burke. It would be easily determined that they
were not Heinrich's cattle, if they have the "ID" brand on them.
Representative Stephens. Is not the last brand the holding bran<l?
Mrs. Grey'. That is the idea; yes. These were not pro|)erly
branded, because "ID" is not the Indians' brand. If you were an
Indian, would you be satisfied if your Indian cattle had merely " I D "
cm them?
Representative Burke. You are speaking of Indian cattle?
Mrs. Grey. Yes. They are all Indian cattle-
Representative Stephens. Do you state that these cattle belong to
the individual Indians, not to the tribe?
Mrs. Grey. Yes: vou have got my idea. The cattle that wore
shipped with no name on them except'" I D " were shipped two years
ago, and this last vear thev are receiving shipments. The cattle that
are coming in will' be branded " I D," but the cattle that were shij)ped
were all Indian cattle. There was no trouble there until these cattle
were put on. i- i i i ■ • r
Representative Stephens. How do the Indians brand their mkIi-
vidual cattle? , , , . ,., rri
Mrs. Grey. They are not permitted to brand their own cattle. 1 he
cattle run with the lessees', and the lessees brand them.
35601— PT 15—14 17
2068 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Eepresentative Stephens. How do you know that Heinrich or the
lessees get the Indians' cattle unless the Indians' cattle were branded;
unless they knew them by the flesh marks?
Mrs. Grey. The Indians' cattle are gone.
Eepresentative Stephens. Well, but do they not die up there; do
they not run away ? Because they are gone, is that any evidence that
they have been stolen by Heinrich?
Mrs. Grey. When you see an Indian steer occasionally with a
big calf brand of the individual Indian and the little tally mark of
Heinrich, you feel pretty sure that there has been a change of brand.
I have seen a number of them, especially when the brand is not
healed. Horses the same. And when the Indian cattle have abso-
lutely no increase, and never do have, and disappear, and the lessees'
cattle — Heinrich went there in, I think, 1898, with 75 head of cattle.
He is now running on two big ranges ; he has increased that much —
23,000 on No. 5 and 1,500 on No. 6.
Eepresentative Stephens. I knew a man that went there with
8,000 head of cattle and did not get out 500 the next spring.
Mrs. Grey. Was it on the Crow Eeservation ?
Eepresentative Stephens. No ; but it was in the same country. It
was in Montana. His name is C. C. Herring.
Mrs. Grey. The Crow Eeservation differs from that. They have
the Chinook winds on Crow, and the waters up in this range — they
have the warm springs and they do not freeze. This is different from
that range up toward Glenclive, an altogether different range.
Why, Mr. Stephens, when I was out there it was generally stated
by big cattlemen there that Eosenbaum offered Frank Heinrich
$1,000,000 flat for the cattle he had on the reservation, and he would
not take it.
Senator Lane. What do you want to present here? You were
going to mention some other lease?
Mrs. Grey. I wanted to find that letter of the commissioner, if I
could.
Senator Townsend. What was it about?
Mrs. Grey. About letting Heinrich keep his cattle there through
July— 2,000 head.
Eepresentative Stephens. This year?
Mrs. Grey. Yes ; after the Indian cattle get there. That is what
Mr. Meritt said.
TESTIMONY OF MR. Z. LEWIS DALBY.
(The witness was duly sworn by Senator Lane.)
Mr. Dalby. Mr. Chairman, I happen to represent Mr. Heinrich.
I do not rise for the purpose of making a statement of fact, but
for asking the committee if I might make a statement for Mr. Hein-
rich. Of course I will swear that what I say is true as an attorney
knows the facts relating to his client's business. I think I might
enlighten the committee as to this particular situation under dis-
cussion.
Senator Lane. I think we had better get through with Mrs. Grey.
Mr. Dalby. The matter was up, was why I rose at this time.
Mrs. Grey. It miglit be a good plan to let Mr. Dalby make his
statement, and I will answer him out of the record.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION, 2069
Mr Dalby. 1 merely thought 1 could exphiiu this cattle situa-
tion—the introduction of new cattle
Senator Towisse>.-d Can you answer what Mrs. Grey is trvin- lo
Isfof JuTy?'' ^'' permission to use this ran^e unlirihe
to yJu.^^""'" ^ ^^'""^ ^ ''"• ^ '^""^' ^ ''''' ^'-^l^'^'i'^ ^''"^ ^'^""'i'^"
Senator TowNSEND. You might answer, if you know, what time
he IS permitted to remain on this land
Mr. Dalbv A letter such as Mrs. Grey has descrihed was writien;
that is that Mr Heinrich should have his cattle ..If the ran-e north
ot the fence by the 1st of July, but if it shoul.i not he imssihTe i
them olt by that time they should all be oil", except a margin of ■' ■ ■
which must be removed during the month of Julv. TluPt letter wus
wa^itten on the 24th of April.
Subsequent to that letter, however, Mr. Heinrich was directed to
proceed at once with the removal of his cattle and tu gel them olf
by the 1st of June, without any leeway whatever. Mr. Heinrich has
proceeded, as soon as he could get his equipment together, after re-
ceiving that communication, to remove his cattle. You th)ul)tlesb
know that it is a difficult matter — perhaps you may know it is an im-
possible matter to remove 15,000 head of cattle within a few ihiys
without notice. He had to gather his equipment. As soon as he
gets his equipment together he can work. He is now at work remov-
ing those cattle.
Senator Lane. The Indians complain that they stayed on tiiere
long enough to eat up a lot of the spring grass, and then during the
dry end of the season their cattle would be without grass.
Mrs. Grey. May I ask Mr. Dalby if Heinrich has only had u few
days' notice to get his cattle up?
Mr. Dalby. The notice I referred to was dated the 8th of May.
It was in a letter addressed to me as his attorney. I communicated
with the bureau as soon as I received that letter, which was the l»th
of May. On the 20th of Ma}^ — he did not receive my wire until, I
think, about the 13tli or 14th — he was engaged in the herculean ta>k
of readjusting his herds to the new conditions imposed upon him.
He was here and there, and, as far as po&sible, everywhere on that
range, endeavoring to meet the requirements of the department.
When he received that communication, however, he got to work.
He began removing those cattle on the 20th of May, although the
conditions were not right for removing them, although the removal
of them will involve to him an immense loss; although he had pro-
ceeded in good faith, under the arrangement negotiated with the
Government to which Mrs. Grey has referred, dated the 21th of
April, w^hereby he was allowed until the 1st of July to get his cattle
off, with a possible margin of 2,000, that being set as the irredueihlo
minimum within which that readjustment could be made without a
sacrificial loss to Mr. Heinrich.
Mrs. Grey. Mr. Dalby, was not Mr. Heinrich notified to remove
his cattle last year in April, a year ago?
Mr. Dalby. No.
Mrs. Grey. He certainly was, before the fence was huili. lie
Imew the fence was being built, didn't he?
Senator Lane. Yes; but he had the old leases, Mrs. Grey.
2070 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Mr, Dalby. Yes; he knew the fence was being built.
Mrs. Grey. Yes; but he has paid nothing for that range for
months. His rate was reduced, and the fence was built, and they
have been paying a line rider with Indian money to keep his cattle
up above the fence for several months. It is not a new question at
all. The matter was up, and the cattle were ordered purchased last
April a year ago. At that time Heinrich knew these cattle were
coming there. He never had that lease legally anyway, and never
had any right to be on that land.
Well, now, as to the price Heinrich has been paying, it has been
very much reduced — the range had. Might Mr. Dalby be asked to
tell what Heinrich is paying for the range?
Senator Lane. That is in the terms of the lease, is it not? That
was $2.25 a head, was it not?
Mrs. Grey. Yes; but it amounts to $15,000, and how many head
is he running there?
Senator Lane. Do you know, Mr. Dalby?
Mr. Dalby. He has on the reservation now about 21,000 head.
His original permit covered an average of 23.000 head. After he
was advised of the intention of the department to purchase cattle, he
got in touch with the Indian Office, through myself as attorney, last
spring, and signified to the office that he was ready to meet the views
of the Government in the reduction of his range; and he simply
asked that he be informed as soon as possible what those views were
in order that he might have as much opportunity as would be possi-
ble to meet those conditions without a serious financial loss to him-
self in having to ship his cattle off upon an unready market with the
cattle unready for market.
At that time the Indian Office stated that they expected to buy
some cattle in the fall, and that Mr. Heinrich w^ould not be permitted
to replace the cattle which he shipped off in the fall. Subsequently,
when the bids were opened, in August, they were all rejected, and
after that new bids were called for, and, as I understand, some time
in the winter — in December, I think it was; November or Decem-
ber— contracts were made for additional cattle, not for additional
cattle, but for cattle for the Indians, some 9,000 head. Mr. Heinrich
has never received any official notification to reduce his holding
beyond that informal notification when I came in contact with the
department last spring, which was to the effect that he would not be
permitted to replace the cattle which he shipped off in the fall. He
did not replace the cattle that he shipped off in the fall.
More than that, he had at that time under contract for delivery,
upon the reservation about, I think, 1,800 head of cattle in order to
make up the average to which he was entitled under his permit.
Upon learning the wishes of the department, that he would not
be allowed to replenish his herds after shipping out, he made other
arrangements for that 1,800 head, turned them over to somebody
else, and they never went on that range. So that he now has no
cattle upon that range except the remnant of his stock herd, and the
increases, of course, which have occurred since that time. He has
brought no cattle on since he learned of the intention of the depart-
ment to reduce his holdings.
CROW INDIAX RESERVATION. 2071
Representative Burke. What rental is lie paving now for the
cattle he has there? *
Mr, Dalby. He is paying the permit rate, sir.
Representative Burke. $2.25?
Mr. Dalby. Whatever that is.
,K^nr^''f^^''^h.^^^'^''- ^^""^^ "^* ^^'''^ P^""'^ '""it the M.nnlu.r to
15,000, estimated?
Mr. Dalby, Xo, sir.
Mrs. Grey. He pays $15,000.
• ^^-^-i ^^^^'' ^^^^ p'ermit is, in effect, for 23.000 head. That permit
IS still in effect. It has been modified bv the reduction of his Vuiijre
so that he can not run 23,000: but all that are (here are subject to
that permit, and he pays that permit rate on them.
Senator Laxe. What rate ?
Mr. Dalby. The rate covered in the permit.
Senator Laxe. How much is that ?
Mr. Dalby. There are tAvo permits. There is a permit on iiui<'e
No. G for $2.25.
Mrs. Grey. This is No, 5.
Mr. Dalby. On No. 5, as I recall, the rate is $1.95 per head
Mrs. Grey. Why is there that difference?
Mr. Dalby (continuing). And $2 for the numl>er that he runs in
excess.
Representative Stephexs. When does the lease on No. 5 ter-
minate? ^AHiat is the end of the lease year?
Mr. Dalby. The 1st of February. Both permits began the 1st
of February, 1913, and both run for three years.
Now, let me show you on the map, gentlemen, about this i-hange.
Last August and September Mr. Heinrich began gathering his catllo
and throwing them up — -although this is down on the map, it is up
in the country. The country rises, this way (indicating) toward the
mountains. He began throwing his cattle up from the junction of
the rivers there, and got the range clean to about that point, as I
recall, by last August or September, I think it was — in the shipping
season.
Since that time he has himself been line-riding that place. Per-
haps it is lower than that; I am not sure. At any rate, it is aI)out
150,000 acres of range that has been cleared since last August or
September. There are no cattle at all there of the Indians or of Mr.
Heinrich, because they were thrown up here to malcc room for the
new cattle purchased.
The arrangement that we discussed, at the re<|Ut'si of the coimnis-
sioner, when Mr. Heinrich came here in April for that pur|)ose, witii
Mr. Davis, the stock inspector, and Mr. Campbell, and Mr. \\'eelvley,
who are here this evening, was that as soon as the conditions should
be riirht for that, as soon as the cattle should have sudlciently shed
off for the brands to be distinguished, and the grass had sufli- •
ciently grown, and the cattle had actpiired sulFu-ient strength to
justify milling them in the round-up, he would begin his round-tip.
He would begin working at this edge of his range ( indirating). and
would clear — that is. at the western edge, next the Big Horn ho
would clear that off in successive stages as (juiikly as |)(..^sil)l(': so
that when the Indian cattle came in here, after having had time to
rest and be branded and be driven up here. Mr. Heinriclj would havo
2072 CROW INDIAN EESERVATION.
cleared a sufficient area of range next to the Big Horn here for
the permanent location of those cattle. He would continue his work,
and by the time the next drive of cattle was ready to come he would
have sufficient range for the location of them. And, as well as we
could calculate, reasoning as closely as we knew how, by the 1st
of July it was problematical vvdiether it would be possible for him
to have gotten all those cattle off that range without injuring the
cattle in the too-precipitate movement of them. Hence the leeway
alknved at that time of 2,000. But, at any rate, he would have this
range up here next the fence cleared.
Senator Tov^^ksekd. What benefit would that range be after you
had cleared it? Could the Indian cattle be supported on a range
that had been fed off by Mr. Heinrich's cattle?
Mr. Dalby. The range would not have been eaten off. Senator.
The grass is growing at this time of the year. He has taken them off
while the grass is growing. Of course, if it were true that the range
had been eaten off, it would be a bad place to put the cattle, but that
is not true. The range is sufficient there to support more cattle than
the total number that Mr. Heinrich has and the number that the
Indians are bringing in this season.
Mrs. Geey. How can you make that statement? Didn't they cut
down the numbers on that range materially, all this range over here
[indicating], because it had been overstocked?
Mr. Dalby. That is not Mr. Heinrich's range.
Mrs. Grey. Now, then, to come back to another thing, Mr. Hein-
rich pays $16,000 for the range he is on now, does he not ?
Mr. Dalby. He pays for the range that he has now, under the
existing permit.
Mrs. Grey. I mean under the permit that is in existence ; the one
that has just been negotiated?
Mr. Dalby. Well, that permit relates to the range south of the
fence, the diminished range. The fence line, I believe, is marked
here correctly [referring to the map]. It will come up to that fence
on the south.
Mrs. Grey. Will you show where that fence comes?
Mr. Dalby. The mark is here [indicating] ; I do not know whether
that is correct.
Mrs. Grey. Yes ; it is.
Mr. Dalby. I think it goes on the township line.
Mrs. Grey. A little south of the township line.
Mr. Dalby. Wherever it is, he comes up to that fence.
Mrs. Grey. What does he pay for this range down here?
Mr. Dalby. He would pay $2 a head.
Mrs. Grey. What does it amount to ?
Mr. Dalby. 7,500 head is the capacity.
Mrs. Grey. And it amounts to how much ?
Mr. Dalby. $15,000.
Mrs. Grey. You say 7,500 head ?
Mr. Dalby. Yes.
Mrs. Grey. Do you remember the old southern range that Heinrich
had when you first went on the reservation?
Mr. Dalby. I remember generally.
Mrs. Grey. Do you remember about where it was?
Mr. Dalby. Yes.
CKOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2073
lik^Ihis^'"^^' ^^"'" '' '^' ^^^' "°"- ^^'' ^«"t^^^^" ^---S^ -^s about
Mr. Dalby. No; I think you are mistaken about that.
Senator Townsend. What difference does that make'
Mrs. Geey. He IS paying about one-half of ^vhat he sh.,uld pav,
and if you will allow me I Avill prove it * '
Senator TowxsEXD. If there is a line there that has been estab-
lished, that IS enouo-h for us.
Representative Burke. If that range south of the fence is only
capable of supporting 7,500 head of cattle, what is lie -oing to da
with the difference between 7,500 and the number that be iiajgot in
that area « ^
Mr. Dalby. He has to get rid of them.
Eepresentative Burke. When is he going to get rid of them?
Mr. Dalby. Well, he has to get them offlhat range.
Eepresentative Burke. He is getting them off tl^e range north of
the fence?
]\Ir. Dalby. Yes, sir.
Eepresentative Burke. Where is he going to put them when ho
gets them off?
^ Mr. Dalby. Well, I can not answer that question. That is a very
difficult problem. That property is probably valued at upward of
a million dollars.
Eepresentative Burke. I appreciate all that. What T am ti-ving
to find out is if he only pays $15,000 on the theory that he is only to
have 7,500 head of cattle there, cloes he continue to pav on a greater
number than 7,500 for such time as he has them there at the rate
that the permit requires?
Mr. Dalby. There is grazing there for 7,500 head. After that
grazing is eaten out there will be no grazing there for the other
cattle such as he carries there. Afterwards he will have to have feed
for them.
Eepresentative Burke. You say he is going to get them off soon ?
Mr. Dalby. As soon as he can ; yes.
Eepresentative Burke. Where will they be when they are off?
Mr. Dalby. I say I am not prepared to answer that. They will
probably have to go to market in their unfinished condition, the
effect of which, you realize, Avill be disastrous.
Eepresentative SrEriiENS. Does it not greatly depend upon the
kind of season as to whether the grass is early or late? If there is
plenty of rain and there is an early spring he will have plenty of
grass. If there is no rain you can not work them before July or
August.
Mr. Dalby. That is the usual experience. You can begin about
the 1st of June ordinarily.
Eepresentative Burkr.' Mr. Dalby. is it not to the intere.^t of Mr.
Heinrich, inasmuch as he has 21.000 head of cattle and his new |>cr-
mit only allows him to have 7,500, to keep the cattle above (he fence
just as long as he can and save the range south of the fence?
2074 CKOW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Mr. Dalby. Naturally.
Senator Lane. Do yon know what he pays for that?
Mr. Dalby. I think he paid $13,000 and some odd.
Senator Lane. That was on an estimate of 7,500 head of cattle at
$2 or thereabouts?
Mr. Dalby. No, sir; that was on the basis of the number of cattle
he had on and expected to have on up to August 1. That payment
was made on the basis of the then supposition that he would use this
range for a reasonable length of time, not interfering with the Indian
cattle this season.
Senator Lane. Over what period of time did that give him the
use of the land?
Mr. Dalby. From the 1st of February until the 1st of August.
To that should be added, Mr. Chairman, an amount that had been
paid under the permit last season in excess of what was due.
Senator Lane. No; I am talking about the new permit that is now
in force — the last one. What was the payment?
Mr. Dalby. The one I have stated, sir. That is the only payment
he has made on this
Senator Lane. And that is under the permit?
Mr. Dalby. No; that is for the present season.
Senator Lane. Under the terms of the new permit?
Mr. Dalby. The present season. He has made no payment under
the new permit. Tt has not been approved yet.
Senator Lane. Let us see that record there.
Mr. Dalby. The payment was made under the original permit.
Senator Lane. Now, in tiiis permit, dated February 1, 1914, it
says that for an average of 7,500 head of horses and cattle, for a
period of two years, from February 1, 1914, to February 1, 1916, the
mininRun amount due under this permit is $15,000 per annum.
Mr. Dalby. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. And the permittee further agrees to pay at the rate
of $2 per head per annum for any stock grazed in excess of 7,500
head. That is right, is it?
Mr. Dalby. Those are the terms of that permit; yes, sir.
Senator Lane. That is No. 5. That permit has been accepted, has
it not ?
Mr. Dalby. Not to my knowledge. I do not know of its approval.
Mrs. Grey. What are you working under there then ?
Mr. Dalby. Under the original permit.
Mrs. Grey. Well, the Indian cattle are being delivered now.
Mr. Dalby. This permit is simply, as I suppose, a new instru-
ment in lieu of a modification of the original instrument. The origi-
nal instrument would continue in effect until this actually takes
effect. I suppose it is merely a matter of convenience, substituting
one instrument for another, but the terms are identical so far as
they go.
Eei)resontative Burke. The Heinrich cattle, vou sav, number
about 21,000?
:Mr. Dalhv. At present. I said 20,000 or 21,000.
Representative Bxtrke. How many cattle, if you know, are on
the reservation inider a sublease with Heinrich of people who may
have cattle there?
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2075
Mr. Dalby. Mr. Heinrich has never made a .sublease, :^Ir. Com-
missioner.
Kepresentatiye Burke. There are no cattle th(>re over the 21 000
that Mr. Hemrich is responsible for ?
Mr. Dalby. That 21,000 includes all that are on the ra.iL'e ,.ther
than the Indian cattle. Now, among that 21.000 which Mr Hein-
rich reports in his affidavit and carries under his i)ermit. are a num-
ber of 1,500 head that are run down here | indicatint?] in what ia
Imown as Garvins Basin, by Mr. liooz, or rather by the Basin Cat-
tle Co.
Representative Burke. Is the Basin Cattle Co. there under a
lease or permit from Mr. Heinrich ?
Mr. Dalby. No, sir.
Representative Burke. How do they happen to ]k> tliere?
Mr. Dalby. They are simply there*^; and Mr. Hi'imich has taken
cognizance of their being there, and has collected from them, and
has turned their cattle in in his report to the Government.
Representative Burke. They pay him the same rate?
Mr. Dalby. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. Does not his lease provide that he shall
not sublet?
Mr. Dalby. He does not sublet, and his lease does not have that
requirement.
Representative Burke. What do you call it, if he is collecting a
rental and shipping cattle that belong to somel)ody else, and ac-
counts for them, and pays the same rate on them that he is paying
to the Government ?
Mr. Dalby. I should not so regard it. It has not l)een the cus-
tom
Representative Burke. How would you consider it if it is not a
sublea.se ?
Mr. Dalby. There is not any provision of that kind in the present
permit, Mr. Commissioner.
Representative Burke. I am more concerned in what has trans-
pired than in something that is pending that we have not begun to
operate under.
Mr. Dalby. Well, we have begun to operate under that since last
February a year ago.
Representative Burke. Under what ?
Mr. Dalby. That permit that is now in effect.
Representative Burke. How long has this Basin Cattle Co. I)een
there, or Mr. Booz ?
Mr. Dai-by. I could not say exactly.
Mrs. Grey. Wasn't he there when you fii-st went on the reserva-
tion?
Mr. Dalby. I do not know.
Mrs. Grey. You ordered him to take his cattle off'
Mr. Dalby. I never issued such an order.
Representative Burke. Do you know whether or not the Basin
Cattle Co., or Mr. Booz, has paid to Mr. Heinrich the same amount
per head and no more that Mr. Heinrich pays to the Government ?
Mr. Dalby. And interest on the money. Mr. Heinrich having paid
it in advance and having collected from them three years afterwards.
Representative Burke. How much more does he pay. then?
2076 CEOW INDIAN EESEEVATION.
Mr. Dalby. Whatever that interest amounts to.
Representative Burke. You say he ships the cattle and looks after
them?
Mr. Dalby. No ; I do not say that, Mr. Commissioner. Mr. Hein-
rich does not handle these cattle. They are upon a part of the range
that is inaccessible to him.
Eepresentative Bueke. They are on a part of the range that is
included in the original Heinrich lease, are they not?
Mr. Dalby. Yes ; it is covered in the original lease.
Representative Bueke. They did not go on there without Mr.
Heinrich's permission ?
JNIr. Dalby. Yes, sir ; he found them there.
Representative Burke. He found them there when he enttered on
the reservation?
Mr. Dalby. A'^lien he entered on the reservation, after his lease
was made, and he reported those always in his affidavits.
Representative Burke. I understand. I am not questioning the
fact that he paid the Government the same rate per head that he
was paying on his own cattle, but I want to find out whether or not
he was getting a profit from the Basin Cattle Co. or from Mr. Booz
for those cattle.
Mr. Dalby. I can answer that question unequivocally no; he was
not.
Mrs. Grey. Xow, Mr. Burke, Mr. Dalby is under oath. He knows
perfectly the facts in this matter. He is deliberately making a mis-
statement. Mr. Booz brought here the bills. He brought the ship-
ping receipts and the letters showing what he was paying, and he
estimated he was paying over $4 a head.
Representative Burke. Whom did he bring that to ?
Mrs. Grey. To this commission. It was put in his testimom^, and
it is part of this record.
Representative Burke. Were you here, Mr. Stephens ?
Representative Stephens. I was here when he was here. I think
he was here two or three nights. I was here only one night when he
was here.
Representative Burke. Were you here, Mr. Dalby ?
Mr. Dalby. No, sir. I had notice of the last meeting, and that
was the first I knew of it.
Representative Burke. 'V'^Tiat I wanted to find out is this. The
lease provides that there shall be no subletting. I want to find out
if there was, and then what the terms were with the sublessees.
Mr. Dalby. V^ould you be able to define what would be a sub-
lease under that ?
Representative Burke. I should call it a sublease; I do not know
what else you would call it. It is a very common thing in our
country where a company leases pastures, as we call them, and pays
so much per acre, as was the custom until a new arrangement was
made, for that lessee to take from other people cattle at so much
per head. I would call it subleasing, but I think it was permitted
in the cases I have in mind.
Now, I understand that this lease did not provide for any sub-
letting, and I wanted to find out, if I could, under what arrange-
ment the Basin Cattle Co. or Mr. Booz was operating.
Mr. Dalby. You say it was permitted ?
CEGW INDIAX RESERVATION. 2077
Representative Burke. I think it was there.
Mr. Dalby. The same form has been used throughout the service,
I am advised.
Mrs. Grey. Mr. Dalby, you knoAv perfectlv well it was not per-
mitted.
Representative Burke. It was not permitted under this lease; I
know that. I do not know anythincr about these other leases.
Mr. Dalby. The practice, as' I am advised, in all these permits or
leases, has been that a man will have cattle belongin<r to other men
on the same range with his, but he alone is responsible to the (iov-
ernment. The Government knows him only ; it does not know any-
one else, and it is not material to the Government that A owns the
cattle and that B accounts to tjie Government and runs them.
Representative Burke. Then, I understand, that it is your con-
tention that with such a lease as Mr. Ileinrich had, which' jn-ovided
that he should not sublet, he was expected or permitted to take in
other cattle on any terms that he saw fit. and that it would nc.t be a
violation of the lease?
Mr. Dalby. No; I would not make that contention. T would not
feel that I would have to make that contention, as Mr. Ileinrich
certainly never did that.
Representative Burke. You say it has been the custcm for a man
to make the lease with the Indian Office on the theory that it pre-
ferred to do business with one individual, and that it was imma-
terial whose cattle were there so long as they were paid for it ?
Now, if that is true, and if it was immaterial, then the department
must have acquiesced in it and said to the lessee. "You ha\e that
right under your lease." And that you do not think is subK-tting?
Mr. Dalby. The department, I think, has substaptiallv d(.ne that
in many cases on the Crow Reservation, and jNlr. Heini ich ma;v have
fallen into a practice that is common there.
Representative Burke. I am not saying anything about the sys-
tem; I am trying to find out what it is. I can readily understand
that if I owned the land myself I might be disj^osed to make one gen-
eral lease at so much per head to a responsible party, rather than to
be dealing with numerous individuals; but I want to find out what
was done.
Mr. Dalby. Mr. Heinrich has run his own cattle upon this range.
This is a peculiar situation, down in this Garvin Basin across the
Big Horn Mountains. It is inaccessible from the rest of the re.«;er-
vation, except for a short time dui-ing (he sunun<'r. If ^\v. Ileinrich
of anyone else using this range north of the mountjuns should get
cattle' over in the Garvin Basin and get them cauglit there, and did
not get them back the same season, they would be inclosed there, and
there would be no way to take care of them unless you had a base of
supplies on the other side of the mountains.
Now, it happens that this Basin Cattle Co. has such a base ()f
supplies across there, and thev had. prior to Mr. llemnch's tanng
up this question, used this, apparently for a good many years without
any compensation, judging by Mr. Booz's testimony, which 1 have
gone over.
Mrs. Grey. :Mr. Booz never made such a statement.
2078 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Mr. Dalby. Now, since Mr. Heinrich has been there he has col-
lected for those cattle and turned the money over to the Government
that he has collected, so there has been a revenue there from that part
of the reservation that did not arise before.
Senator Lane. How is that ? That he paid
Mrs. Grey. That he never had paid anything, whereas Mr. Booz's
statement was that he paid the agent directly for everything he had.
Senator Lane. Here is his testimony here.
Eepresentative Burke. Does he testify that he paid it direct?
Senator Lane. Yes.
Representative Burke. What does he say?
Representative Stephens. Who was on this range first — Booz or
Heinrich ?
Mr. Dalby. Mr. Heinrich has never occupied that range down in
the Garvin Basin.
Senator Lane. Is he the lessee for it ?
Mr. Dalby. Yes ; it was covered in his lease for which he paid the
Government beginning in 1910. Now, at that time he would have
had the right to go down there and say to Mr. Booz, " This is my
range ; you must get off of it." He would have been able to take ad-
vantage of Mr. Booz and could have taken his cattle away from him,
but he did not do that. They had the cattle down there. Mr.
Snidow and Mr. Booz were working together. I believe; and out of
consideration. I think, more for Snidow than Booz. Mr. Heinrich per-
mitted them to continue as they were, provided they would save him
whole to the Government. Now, that is exactly all that he did.
Representative Stephens. Then, do you mean to say that the Gov-
ernment has never put him into possession of that tract of land that
Mr. Booz has?
Mr. Dalby. Not in th.e sense of excluding a previous trespasser ;
no, sir.
Representative Stephens. There was a trespasser on the la]id tiiat
he leased? Tliat trespasser has never been dispossessed, and he is
there yet?
Mr. Dalby. So I am advised. But since Mr. Heinrich has been
collecting from that trespasser he has turned the money in to the
Government.
Representative Stephens. Does his affidavit sliow those facts?
Mr. Dalby. I do not know whether it shows that these people
were trespassers in the Garvin Basin. I do not think the affidavits
have ever gone into details of that character.
Representative Stephens. As a matter of fact, has he ever had
actual possession of that piece of land that Mr. Booz has?
Mr. Dalby. No, sir.
Representative Stephens. He has never had cattle on it? Mr.
Booz has had it all the while?
Mr. Dali'.y. Yes. sir; that is my information.
Representative Stephens. That is the way I understood Mr. Booz's
testimony. It is cut off entirely from the rest of the range and has
nothing whatever to do with it. It is a piece of range that this Mr.
Heinrich has never had possession of.
Senator Lane. He has been collecting rent on it. has he not?
Mrs. Grey. Yes; he has.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2079
Representative Stephens. It was thp <lnfv «f tk« n
put him in possession of it in the H,st plac" ^ Go^^-n^nt to
oenator Lane. At the samp fiino fi.i ^' i
in possession of it ; vet it S VZow^ V^' T T"^ '"~
benator Lane. He could not mllpr-f r,.,.f ^ m^" •
not in possession of, coui/i^ei' \t\v:uid no 7,.r;;r,';,x";,:,r
self, would you, as an attorney « • "«> i".u \.)ur-
Mr. Dalby. I have stated exactly what was done,
feenator Lane. Here is what Mr. Booz says:
Representative Siephens. Did jou ever ask Lin/anvlhinL' „l,out it'
xMr. Booz. I never did. I have not seen Fr-ink- h..,,.. i.%
year ago last February I had a cSk in ok Se.v d r^.H"* ^V'r" ^^"l "'
this lease and get it straight."' He ^ <l ' W. ft mt'lM sL <. i' , ^' ** r"'*-* "^
It — Jt'lo.ooo for about four years, for the lease ^eluea
Senator Lane. When you shipped his cattle,' to wlion. did he tell yon to have
the payment madeV ^ nine
TTo^.''ni?°''^- .^'''"- ?'f ^-^is Will Heinrioh. His brother attendo<l to the shinning
He told me to send it to the bank at Omaha, the Rostwi.k I'.auk I h" e f r
fo"S bank'lT Ozm=h'' "■•'"• '"^ ' ^""^ '''' ^■'•"'"'^-'^^" "'- ''' ^"^ »»- "'-'v
cat^ttef ""' ^"^^''' ^" ^""^ "H'lerstand that Mr. Hostwi.-k lias control of tiieHe
,J^^'- J?°^- X*^"' -^^'■- Bostwick told me that he and Frank Ileinri.h uwn.^1
.^•f'"*^*'v,''^°^ ^^ ^=^'^^' W^^'^ y^" set ready to sell your outfit give U8 a chance
at It." That was three years ago last July.
Senator Lane. Is it your understanding that Mr. liostwick controls the
entire range on the reserve?
Mr. Booz. His money does. I am confident of that— the biggest part of it
We don't do business with Bostwick : still he has tried me sever.il time to lend
me money. I thanked him and told him that I did not need it.
Then in another place he says:
Senator Lane. How does the range you sublease from Mr. Ilelnrich compare
with the rest of the land on which :\Ir. Ileiurich ranges his cattle?
Mr. Booz. There is no comparison. His range is a year-round range, and mine
is just a winter range, used during the winter.
Senator Lane. You pay that much per head just for the winter?
Mr. Booz. .Just for the winter.
Senator Lane. For half the time?
Mr. Booz. Just about half the time.
Senator Lane. When your cattle mix with Mr. Heinrich's and he ships them,
what does he charge you?
Mr. Booz. He charges me $1.50 a head, until Mrs. Grey cnme out and hud a
kind of meeting — I don't know what it was, but after that he took off the
$1.50 a head and did not charge me any more.
Mrs. Grey. He means $4.50.
v,tiu ouuw you licit; well, J. Lilll Oliuw ,>uu 11,^111 inrn; mu mt .-•II
Senator Lane. That is, when he collect.s, is it. when you ship?
Mr. Booz. Yes, sir: it is held out in Chicago. Here is some tliat he shipped
[producing shipping bills].
Mr. Dalby. Mr. Chairman, I looked over this pretty carefully, and
I did not see any items in there corresponding to his statement. 1
might call your attention to the statement he makes there that what
he has is a winter range, as distinguished from an all-year round
range. If a range is gocnl in the winter it must be good in the
2080 CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION.
summer. If it is a winter range it is the best kind of range. The
fact that he can use it in winter as wintering quarters for his cattle
that he may range elsewhere during the summer enhances the value
of that range.
. Senator Lane. You mean to sa}^ that if he can range on it in the
winter he can range on it in the summer ?
Mr. Dalby. Ordinarily I think that is true, Senator.
Senator Lane. It may or may not be true.
Representative Stephens. I understood his testimony to be that
they had some other range in the summer, and they reserved this
part of this tract of land, which is pretty well up in the mountains,
for a winter range,
Mrs. Gkey. This is a winter range; it is up in the mountains.
Mr. Dalby. That is the point. You use in the summer what you
can not use in the winter, and that is the character of this Garvin
Basin.
■ Mrs. Grey. I have Mr. Booz's affidavit here as to how much he
paid. Mr. Dalby said Mr. Booz was paying nothing for the range.
This is from Mr. Booz's affidavit :
I leased first from the Government through the agent, Reynolds, at Crow
Agency, and paid the sum of $250 a year, I think it was, going in on the lease
with 307 head of cattle.
So Mr. Booz testified at that time that he never was, as Mr. Dalby
said, on the range without paying for it.
Mr. Dalby. I will say to the commission that my statement that
he had not made a payment prior to that time was based on my
understanding of his own testimon3^ If I am mistaken in that, I
give you the basis of my statement.
Senator Lane. The meat of the statement made by Mr. Booz was
that Heinrich leased the land from the Government for $2 a head
and Mr. Booz paid him $3.50.
Mr. Dalby. That is not true.
Representative Burke. Senator, I notice that at a former hearing
the chairman interrogated Mr. Scott, and it developed that a lease
of one Spear, I think, who was running sheep, did allow sheep to be
ranged on the area that he had leased, and Mr. Scott took the posi-
tion that he did not think that was subletting, and the chairman
commented and said it was an evasion, and Mr. Scott made the fol-
lowing statement :
The Chairman. Did he call attention to the fact that Heinrich was especially
practicing the subletting system?
Mr. Scott. There may have been some conversation as to that; I do not
recall it.
The Chairman. As a matter of fact, you told Heinrich that it was your
general policy to encourage this plan, did you not?
Mr. Scott. I think you misunderstood me. I did not intend to say that we
encouraged that. In fact we would much prefer if that was not done; and we
discouraged it as far as possible.
Senator Townsend. Do you not think that there are quite a number of those
subleases in that way — call them by what name you please?
Mr. Scott. I think not.
Senator Townsknp. AVas the Heinrich lease cut down?
Mr. Scott. It will be on the 1st of February,
Senator Townsend. Is that because he had been subleasing part of it?
Mr. Scott. No, sir.
Senator Townsend. That is not true?
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2081
stock on his range and £ nssnirt ,n! ""'•f '"'''"'• •"'•^■^"^' "•«>* '-.im.ink
I have a great cie?l' oTconMence S m" SS'^^'"""-^' "'"• •'"^'' "^ ' ->^
That is the statement of Mr. Scott
^r^ ^ff^- The^yo^i ^^^ill recall that I -ave in the shinninir re-
ceipt for the Basm Cattle Co. from Aberdeen, and Mr. Sc 7,1 no
know where Aberdeen was; he could not reccg.Uze it us a shi np ^^
receipt. He said there was no such thin'^ ther? • "ippwig
lowj-^r ^^'^'^^^^ submitted the affidavit referred t.. in full, as fol-
I have been on the Crow Reservation ulf and on for -m v ..,■•■ .... i
member of the Basin Cattle Co. The coLiHons",? h^S ^ 'S.^ I'^w^r;;
^^%'%^nn^.^'''''^' ''''^ ^^^y ^'^^ ^^o"t 13,000 head of ..attle ai 1 bet c",, '" »So
and 30,000 horses estimated. At the pre.sent tin,e tb. 1 ulia s a re .T .sil ,??
condition and I have been told by other Indians that tl>ev are eui...' loL
Horses are scarce, the cattle is very near gone, and the reason is . v X h'e
range has been overstocked by the lessees. The Indians are poor be ■. se tJ ey
can not have control of their allotments ^
The lessees gather big herd.s of cattle and got to the road in the nearest way
hoH .n?" ""'V *^? ''''Y\ ^^"'^ ""'^ "" -''^^^- '^^'^y ^"^ the wire and tlu-ow
back and go through. I have seen Indians put in gardens and have the... in
nice shape: go back across the reservation and they would be full of .-attle and
everything trampled down. The gardens would be full of les.see's ivttle The
lessees hold certain parts of the reservation tor winter pasture aud drive o.it the
Indian cattle.
The Indians are poor because the lessees will not buy all the surplus hay
from the Indians. They refuse to buy hay from some of the Indians and tlie
squaw men. When the lessees would drive big herds across the range they
would leave the fences cut, and the cattle would scatter for 25 miles ii-om their
ranges to the top of the mountain.
Tlie lessee rounds up and brands cattle in the spring and summer. The
Indians do not run a wagon. The lessees round up the Indians' and their own
cattle. The lessees leave cows aud calves uiibranded on the range. In the
spring they round up, and the calves that they leave on the nmge in.brandtHl
are yearlings the following summer and fall, and the lessees put tlieir own in-
dividual brand upon them.
Three years ago last August, the 28th, the P.asin Cattle Co. ami Will Ilpin-
rich had shipments from the Crow Reservation in the yard at Lincoln. Nehr..
feeding. There were two carolads of mixed stuff .shipped from the C.-ow Reser-
vation by Heinrich— I D cattle mixed with the two loads. The two loada
were called the stray bunch. They were p.'.rtly I D cattle, fi-oni yearlings
up. The records of this ought to be shown on the record brand books in Chi-
cago, and the weight of the cattle will show the age.
Campbell is inspector on the reservation. I have never soeni him inspect
any cattle in the 13 years past, nor horses either. There have been sent to the
Crow Agency circulars of horse sales. Campbell has never been prese.it at a
sale that I have heard of. When I was sliii.ping cattle off the reservation
Campbell has never inspected anything in the cattle sliipiuents or any other
employee. I am always present at the shipiiing. Campbell is a nia.i who likes
whisky mighty well. I have seen him drunk more th;in I li.ive sihm. bin. sober.
The boss farmer of this district is Schrader. He is a n.igl.ty worthless niiiii;
that is my opinion of him. I have never seen him n.e.isuri.ig hay or helpli.B
the Indians in any way, shape, or form. I have seen him lying around In sum-
mer resorts along the creeks.
I am subleasing from Frank Heinrich. My ninge is what is called tin* <lry
2082 CEOW INDIAN RESEKVATION.
About four years ap;o Heiurich notified me that he had the reservation and
that I could still hold the dry corner by paying hiiu. Nothing was said until
he demanded $4,333, wiiich the Basin Cattle Co. paid. The Basin Cattle Co.
paid him $11,000 more besides the $4,333 check, and he still claims that we
owe him $1,500, due August 1. which makes $16,853 for the use of about 45,000
acres. Since 1910 this range is used only for winter — five or six months of the
year — because it has no water in summer. I pay for 1,400 head of cattle on
the foi-est reserve 27 cents a season a head, from 90 to 120 days, and also use
the public domr.in. When Heinrich shipped my cattle he charged me $3.50 up
until September 1. From that on he never charged me anything. I ship his
cattle and do not charge him anything at all. as is customary between cowmen.
This $3.50 was a range fee and did not include the expense of shipping.
The others I know who are running cattle on the Heinrich range are Oscar
Wilson, Paikman, Wyo. ; George T. Shirgy and Matt Shirgy, Parkman, Wyo. ;
Jack Kennedy : Will Heinrich. I.odgegrass, Wyo. ; Charlie Heinrich. Lodgegrass,
Wyo.; E. L. Diina, Pai-kman, Wyo.
The range has been divided recently by a fence, running from the IJttle Horn
River to a canyon connecting with Black Canj'on, in order to cut the range in
two to divide the Indian cattle from the lessees' cattle of the Heinrich lease.
In a big storm the cattle will drift ;ind break through any kind of a fence
built on the range. The range below the fence is what the cowmen would con-
sider a desert. The country below the fence is sbeeiied out and very poor at
the present time. It would be a very poor place to turn a herd in the spring.
I would not take it as a gift to turn my cattle. With a dry season it would
carry scarcely any cattle this simimer.
Above the fence I have known it for 21 j'ears; there never has been a drought
and they shipped fine beef. There is plenty of water everywhere up there.
They have been able to cut grass on the open range, and it has been considered
the garden spot of the reservation. Anyone will find what it is by asking
Heinrich to trade ranges with the Indians.
I have had the Indians to help me off and on for 14 years as cow hands.
They have proved good. They never deserted me in time of need. I paid them
just the same as I did white men. I trusted them just as far. I think if the
Indians were issued cattle now they would take care of them and prosper the
same as their white friends.
I have never heard of the I. P. range being leased initil Heinrich made the
lease in 1910. The Indians said they never consented to the leasing of the I. D.
range and protested against it ever since up to the present time. The Indians
have lost their cattle and horses because the range has been overstocked by the
lessees. For a sample of the trouble on the range, there is Mr. Peters. Mr.
Peters is married to an Indian woman; has a family and grandchildren; in
all there are nine of them. He has about 2,700 acres allotted to his family.
He has about 35 head of stock and does not use all the hay he has. I have
been using his surplus range off and on for seven or eight years. Last April
I paid him 15 cents an acre and $6 a ton for his hay, and his cattle to run
in the pasture with my stock and be fed with my stock. I paid him $5 a day
for the use of his team and wagon. I have not been able to feed the hay. Mr.
Scott forbid me taking cattle on the allotments. He said my cattle would get
out and trespass on INIr. Heinrich's range. When I shipped there were 4 of
mine out and 23 of Mr. Heinrich's in on the allotments. Scratch His Face has
some land fenced and wanted to lease his pasture and was forbidden from
doing it. Bright Wing also. Little Nest, and others, too.
Heinrich accuses the Indians of killing his cattle. Peters told me that they
offered $1,500 if they caught him and convicted him of killing his cattle. My
cattle have been with Peters off and on for seven or eight years. I have never
caught him killing anything of mine. He has always treated me fair and
sqiiare in all dealings we have had.
Tom Doyle is married to an Indian woman, who, with his children, are al-
lotted. Their allotments lie within the Spear Bros, lease. Doc Spear told me
that he had Tom Doyle in jail for killing one of his cattle. Tom Doyle has
been nj) to my place and stayed all night and said, " I have not sold my hay,
Booz." I told him I had all the hay I possibly could feed. His family is de-
pending on his produce raised on the range, the hay being the most important.
I have heard off and on that Henry had branded Indians' cattle, in particular
a yearling that George Pease, of Lodegrass, has in his corral. When I go
home I will try to get George Pease to kill the steer, tan the hide, and send
*t to Mrs. Gray, so you can see the two brands on it.
1
CKOW INDIAN RESERVATION. OQgg
All of the lessees seem to be toiretliPi- " r{r.of„.;^i. it
Spear Bros. Cattle Co., told me tb ft bi^nul iS- f.^ n •*" ^^"•^«'•l^'" ^f the
use the dry corner. Theu I told hhi tw t ' Heinric-b would bave to
meats, likJ Peters, eiigM VinL' aM Li le Nest ^^'f;:, r V.v ^ ^T 'Y '^''T
that. Go and see Heinricb and^x I? u^S^^,;;^'u^£l^: ^"= ^""^ <^°
c u -1 ^ , John IIknby Booz.
ington!'S C ' '''''™ '" '^''"'' ""'^ ''''' -^^^ "=•>■ «^ ^J'-'-^l^- 191^. at Wash-
[seal] ,, ,, ,.
Helkn v. Hbidqe,
My commission expires August 9, 1915. yotary Public.
Washixgto.n, D. C, March 20, J9I4.
Mr. Booz is subleasing what is called the dry corner, about 4.'i.00() acres.
just over the \\ yomuig line. The mountains, which are practi<-,,llv in.passabl.
durmg most of the year, separate this from the rest of the range " It is at the
present time a part of district No. 5. The lessees bave never used it In order
to prevent the subleasing of this range it will be necessary to separate it from
>,o 5. If this could be done, and the range as a separate district let to the
highest bidder, it would be to the advantage of the Indians. If tbis district
were called district No. 7. the boundaries would be: Beginning at the Wyondntf
hne, running northwest along Bull Elli Creek, through Bull Elk canvon to the
mouth of Bull Elk Creek in the Big Horn River, south along the*Big Horn
River to the Wyoming line, east along the Wyoming line to place of beginning
as shown on the map attached.
Mr. Booz wants permission from the Indian Office to feed the hay for which
he has paid, the checks being attached. He also wants a right of way from
one ranch to the other, to pass backward and forward with his cattle, the
way the rest of the people do.
Helen Grey.
Mrs. GREr. I want to say I know all these people, and at the time
we were at Crow Agency and had that hearing Charley Ileinrich
had been accused of branding one of the Indian's cattle, and he said
in the hearing that he had a permit to nm 1,000 head with Frank
Heinrich, and E. L. Dana, we found in the accounts, had been ship-
ping from Wyola and from this same range.
Mr. Dalby. Will Mrs. Grey point to the testimony by Charlea
Heinrich that he had a permit to run 1,000 head?
Mrs. Gref. Yes
Eepresentative Burke. "Well, we are not getting anywhere.
Mrs. Grey. Plere is what I wanted; that Mr. Heinrich is paying
for 7,500 head of cattle on this range.
Mr. Dalby. That is the basis of the new permit whicli has not yet
gone into effect.
Mrs. Grey. But when he has taken all his cattle below the fence,
or north of the fence, he will then be running 7.500?
Mr. Dalby. When the readjustment has been completed.
Mrs. Grey. And that will be the limit of that range?
Mr. Dalby. That is the limit of tlie range, and will include Gar-
vin Basin; and as to that Mr. Heinrich has .said to the Government,
in view of the comments that have been made upon that situation,
that he is including that 1,500 head in order to meet the requirements
of the Government in that connection; and— I think, at the sug-
gestion of the agent — that it is perfectly immaterial to him whether'
the Garvin Basin is cut out and the permit reduced proportionately,
or whether he lets these people still u.so it and pay him and he paV
the Government. It is immaterial to him.
35G01— PTl5— 14 IS
2084 GROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Mrs. Grey. Do you remembel* the old southern district that Mr.
Heinrich had when you first went to the reservation as inspector that
you passed upon?
Mr. Dalby. Yes.
Mrs. Gkey. Now, will you look at this map, Mr. Dalby, and say
if this is not the old southern district that is marked on this map?
It is your map? [Indicating on map contained in Senate committee
hearings of 1907-8.]
Mr. Dalby. That is as near as I could determine it at that time.
Mrs. Grey. Is not that just about half what there is now? You
see it comes clear up here [indicating]. Just say what proportion
you think it is. I reckon it is just about half.
Mr. Dalby. I will look it over and give you my best judgment on
it. Looking at it just by the map it appears to be considerably more
than half, but you must take into consideration the fact that all this
blank part here is very inaccessible, and, at best, accessible only for
a short time in the summer. This Garvin Basin, if you take that
cut, then what Mr. Heinrich had at that time was about half of what
he would have now.
Mrs. Grey. That is to say of the good range
Mr. Dalby (interposing). According to the showing on the map.
Mrs. Grey. That is the good range, the range that would be acces-
sible all the year round now is about twice what he had on this
map — the old southern district ?
Mr. Dalby. Yes; not including the arrangement he had with cer-
tain individuals at that time. That went down to the mission — —
Mrs. Grey. What they call the southern district ?
Mr. Dalby. The limestone quarry.
Mrs. Grey. You say he has a range he can use all the year around
under this new arrangement, below the fence, containing twice as
much land as he had in the old southern district ?
Mr. Dalby. No, not below the fence; it is all above the fence.
Mrs. Grey. Well, what is the difference ?
Mr. Dalby. It is up in the mountains.
Mrs. Grey. Just answer the question so we will get it straight in
the record.
Mr. Dalby. It is up in the mountains south of the fence.
Mrs. Grey. About twice as much as he had in the old southern
district?
Mr. Dalby. Just speaking roughly.
Mrs. Grey. That is not counting in any of this mountain district?
Mr. Dalby. Approximately that.
Mrs. Grey. Now, you say he has 7,500 head, all that will carry^
T,500?
Mr. Dalby. It will not carry that many.
Mrs. Grey. That is what he is going to pay for ?
Mr. Dalby. That will include the 1,500 head over here in the
Garvin Basin ; ().000 head is the average capacity of that range.
Mrs. Grey. Well, now, Mr. Dalby, in 1909 Mr. Heinrich was oc-
cupying this southern range. He had 11.000 head on that range and
was paying for them. Here is the telegram
Mr. Dalby. Can you state the boundaries of the range he occupied ^
at that time?
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2085
_^Mrs. Grey. Yes. This was the okl southern boun.lary | iiulicat-
Mr. Dalby. That was 1907.
Mrs. Grey. This is the map furnished in 1908 by the In<lian Ofliee.
Ml^ Dalby That was the map I drew in 1907, an.l slM.wed the
boundaries withm which he was at that time rangin-, under permit,
about 3,500 head. 007 1 ,
Mrs. Grey. Was that the southern rano-e?
Mr. Dalby. In 1907?
Mrs. Grey. Yes; in 1907. How long did Ids perndt run at that
time ?
Mr. Dalby. He had a permit by the year at tliat time
Mrs. Grey. Yes; running until 1908. It was renewed again for
1909. Anyway, Mr. Dalby, let us not quibble about it.
Kepresentative Burke. I do not know what you are trvinir to
get at. . . h
Mrs. Grey. In 1909 he had 11,000 head on onc-lialf of what he
has 7,500 head on now.
Mr. Dalby. I do not wish to admit anything of the kind, btvause
no such facts are Avithin my knowledge.
Mrs. Grey. AVell, here is a telegram. There is a telegram here
that asked Mr. Reynolds to see how many cattle he liad on his
range. The reply from Mr. Reynolds is dated April 30, 1909 (read-
ing) :
[Telegram.]
Crow Agency, Mont.. .1 /);■// 29, 1U0D.
Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. C:
Heinrich has 11,000 bead of cattle on south end of reservation, or will liave
when he puts back these that are yet beinj? fed hay. Says 4.000 of these will
be sent to market between August 1 and November t. Thrw thousand of
the remainder will be gathered when winter he.L'iiis and fed liay until spring
opens. Hay fed will mostly be purchased from Indians. Will never have on
range at one time in excess of 11,800 head. Will give $12.(i(H) to date next
spring, satisfactory to your office. .Tames I>. Ash offers advance of Ifl.Ol" for
district No. 2. Dana offers $000 increase of district No. G.
Reynoi-DS, l^uiKrinlrnilt'iit.
Mr. Dalby. Does he in that telegram state that they are witliin (he
boundaries described here?
Mrs. Grey. Yes, sir; that is the only place that lie had a permit
at this time. He was running cattle up above, but this telegram wa.s
when they were reallotting those ranges.
Representative Burke. What are you trying to e.'^tablish, .Mr.s.
Grey?
Mrs. Grey. That he had 11,800 head on half the range that he says
will run 6,000 head now.
Representative Burke. What difTerence docs it make if they are
only going to allow him to run so many?
Mrs. Grey. If the limit of the range is 11,800 head f«.r half, the
limit of the range he has got will be l'L>,000 head, and he is turning
21,000 head below, and he is paying for 7,500 head. I f (he h.-nl wa.s
counted . xt i-» 11 a
Representative Burke. You say yon made this map, Mr. Dalby (
Mr. Dalby. Yes, sir.
2086 CROW INDIAN RESEEVATION.
Representative Burke. Under what circumstances did you happen
to be making this map ? What position, if any, did you hokl ?
]\ir. Dalby. I was an Indian inspector.
Representative Burke. How much time did you spend on the res-
ervation, and when was it ?
Mr. Dalby. I was there from May until August.
Representative Burke. Of what vear?
Mr. Dalby. Of 1907.
Representative Burke. What was the purpose of your mission?
Mr. Dalby. Investigating conditions, particularly charges made by
Mrs. Grey.
Representative Burke. And whom did you find there ranging cat-
tle at that time ?
Mr. Dalby. Mr. Heinrich, Mr. Dana — I believe the rest of the
ranges were then occupied by sheep.
Representative Burke. Was Mr. Booz or the Basin Cattle Co.
there at that time?
Mr. Dalby. If they were I do not recall it. I did not go over into
the Garvin Basin. I may have known of that permit by the agent
to which reference is made. I will state that there were a number of
informal permits prior to that time that I recall, but the details of
them I do not recall, and this may have been one of them, but that
was in accord with the practice at that time. And, while I am not
sure, I think my report calls attention to some of those matters.
Representative Burke. Was Mr. Heinrich at that time confining
his cattle to this area that you call the south part of the reservation,
which would be south of the fence that is now being constructed or
has been constructed?
Mrs. Grey. He has had his own fence, and this line follows, ap-
parently, the Heinrich pasture.
Mr. Dalby. In heply to that, these dark lines [indicating] outline
the boundaries of his regular range as near as I could determine them.
This dotted line here represents what I think Mrs. Grey refers to as
the Heinrich fence, and that was made by an informal arrangement
with the allottees within this territory by which he ran cattle in
there — about 1,000 head altogether — and he paid them directly. In
my report I recommended that he should be required to make such
arrangements in future through the agent ; so that subsequent to that
time unquestionably the agent, in obedience to the instructions based
upon that recommendation, ran all this country, and subsequently
that [indicating] was his range.
Representative Burke. It was all down in the south part, in the
hills?
Mr. Dalby, Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. And it has been subsequent to that time
that he has obtained other leases or other permits to run cattle
farther north?
Mr. Dalby. In 1009 the suggestion was made by a gentleman in
the Indian Office that the I. D. range be leased. I had then recently
resigned the position of Indian inspector.
Representative Burke. When was that ?
Mr. Dalby. In 1009, after the opening of the bids for the ranges
which had previously been leased. Mr. Baker asked me if I did not
think it Avould be a good idea to lease that I. D, range. My reply
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2087
was to caution him against the leasing of the I. D. ran-e at k-ist
until he ^as sure that he had reserved sufficient for the Iiulian Avrk.
But I said If after going into that situation and safcguardin.r the
interests of the Indians, you determine that vou are -roin.r t.,1ra.e
gat I. D. range I would like to have an (.pporh.nit^- f? ,,„t Mr.
Hemrich s offer before you. ' Mr. Heinricli did make a.. ..tier, and
he did make the best offer that was made, and the laiirre was le-ised
to him under conditions which, in the opinion of tiic Indian Office
safeguarded the interests of the Indians.
Representative Burke. When did vou become the attoriiev of Mr
Hemrich ?
Mr. Dalby. In 1909, subsequent to mv separation lr.,m the tJox-
ernment service.
Representative Burke. How soon after vou retired from the (Jov-
ernment service?
Mr. Dalby. Very shortly, sir.
Senator Townsend. Had you made arrangements before you re-
tired ?
Mr. Dalby. I had not, sir. I will state that the matter was sug-
gested to me first by Mr. Spear. Mr. Spear said to me that they
seemed to be getting ready to throw Mr. Heinrich olf the reservation.
He said that he was going to suggest to him that he i-etain me as his
attorney. I said to Mr. Spear, "I have had a very bitter tight with
the Indian Rights' Association. They endeavored to in-event my
confirmation as Indian inspector. They will oppose me in the In-
dian Office if I represent Mr. Heirich, and I am unwilling to repre-
sent Mr. Heinrich without his knowing that situation and deliber-
ately choosing to retain me."
Mrs. Grey. He did know it, didn't he ?
Mr. Dalby. I said. "I will see Mr. Mondell." Mr. Mondell. as
the Representative from that district — Mr. Heinrich being then a
resident of Slack, Wyo. — had presented to the Indian Office the
interests of his constituent, Mr. Heinrich. I went to Mr. Mondell
and said that Mr. Spear had made this suggestion to me. but that
this was my position, and that I did not care to get into that situa-
tion and bring Mr. Heinrich an injury, and it was up to him and
Mr. Heinrich. If they thought I could help, I would be glad to
help, but I would not do it until Mr. Heinrich had knowledge of that
situation.
Mr. Heinrich then wired me — I think it was some time in August;
probably the 5th or 6th of August. ]\ry resignation took elfect the
1st of August. The matter was mentioned to me first by Mr. Spear
after the opening of the bids, which, I think, was the ;5d of .Vugust,
I did take that up, and subsequently I did represent Mr. Heinrich,
and I have represented him ever since.
Representative Burke. And he got a permit after \""! ^vr.- re-
tained as his attorne}'^ ?
Mr. Dalby. He did ; he got a lease.
Representative Burke. Well, a lease.
Mr. Dalby. It is substantially the same thing. In l'a<-t, the com-
missioner said to us when he accepted Mr. Heinrich's bij. " I will
give you either a lease or a permit for three years." Mr. Ileiiirich
said he would prefer it on a lease, and the commi.ssioner gave it to
him as a lease instead of a permit.
2088 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION".
Senator Townsend. Do any of those Indians on that range have
title in fee to any part of it ?
Mr. Dalby. I could only answer that, Senator, on information.
At that time there were perhaps half a dozen to whom the fee patents
had been issued, but I am not absolutely sure even of that. I know
that fee patents had been issued.
Senator Townsend. Did you help prepare this bid of Mr. Hein-
rich's ?
Mr. Dalby. In 1909?
Senator Townsend. Yes.
Mr. Dalby. No, sir.
Senator Townsend. Did you know what it was?
Mr. Dalby. I helped him prepare his bid for the I D range. That
was made in August after I was his attorney, and he came here to
Washington for that purpose.
Senator Townsend. You say you resigned after the bids were
opened ?
Mr. Dalby. No, sir; I resigned long prior to that — the bids for the
letting of the Crow ranges which were opened, as I recall, on the
2d or 3d of August. I won't be sure as to the date.
Senator Townsend. I ask you again. Did you know anything
about those bids before they were opened ?
Mr. Dalby. I did not just catch the drift of your question. Senator.
Senator Toavnsend. Did you know what Mr. Heinrich's bid was
going to be before it was opened by the department?
Mr. Dalby. No, sir.
Mrs. Grey. You were his attorney.
Senator Townsend. Not at that time. You did not help draw
them, and you knew nothing about what the bids were until they
were opened?
Mr. Dalby. No; Mr. Heinrich was indiscret enough to put his bid
in " cold " as the saying is. It was opened in Washington, and I did
not learn anything of the situation until afterwards.
Senator Townsend. You were interested in having Mr. Heinrich's
bid accepted?
Mr. Dalby. When I became his attorney I certainly was ; not prior
to that time.
Senator Townsend. You were down there three or four months?
Mr. Dalby. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. How did you happen to go down there?
Mr. Dalby. I was ordered by the Secretary of the Interior.
Senator Townsend. Were you acquainted with any of the condi-
tions or any of the men before you went down there ?
Mr. Dalby. No, sir.
Senator Townsend. You were not acquainted with Mr. Heinrich
before you went there ?
Mr. Dalby. No, sir.
Senator Townsend. You did not approA'^e of this leasing of Indian
land in this way ?
Mr. Dalby. You mean this arrangement in this territory that I
speak of [indicating on the map] ?
Senator Townsend. Yes.
Mr. Dalby. No, sir; and I specifically recommended that this
arrangement be made through the agent. I did not see anything
CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2089
morally wrong, but I saw that it opened the wav for arrancementa
that wonld be open to criticism. That is, if any men were allowed
to go in there and deal directly with the Indians for the leasing of
their lands there would be opportunity for criticism if not for
wrongdoing; and to safeguard the interests of the service I recom-
mended that those arrangements be closed up. and if any correspond-
ing arrangements were made in the future that they be made through
the superintendent and with his approval, and I'presume that was
done.
Senator Kp^E. I would like to hear Mr. Meritt or some gentleman
who is familiar with this leasing proposition.
Mrs. Grey. Before we leave this I want to say that none of you
seem to have got the idea that the present number of cattle on this
range does not compare with the number that Mr. Tleinrich had.
that he acknowledged when he was paying $1 a head. Instead of
paying $1.5,000 he should be paying about twice that mucli. The
others on the reservation are paying $2.25 a head.
Eepresentative Burke. Mr. Dalby says— and that is my under-
standing— that until the new arrangement begins, he pays for his
cattle on the basis of whatever the existing permit calls for for the
number of cattle he has.
Mrs. Grey. No; he is not paving that: he is paving $1.05 a head.
Mr. Dalby. $1.95.
Mrs. Grey. Why is he paying $1.95 when everybody else is paving
$2.25?
Mr. Dalby. I can answer that in a general way. Mr. Heinrich
occupies the range on which the Indian cattle range. lie furnishes
the bulls for all the cattle upon that range. He bears the round-up
expenses. He bears the shipping expenses
Mrs. Grey. He does not, though.
Mr. Dalby. Upon the basis of the number of cattle tliat the
Indians had at that time, which the Indian Office ascertained, and
the value of those surveys, it was estimated at that time that that
would make his payment of $1.95 upon the same basis as the Spear
bid.
Mrs. Grey. Does not the Indian Bureau put two men on every
round-up there?
Mr. Dalby. I could not answer that.
Mrs. Grey. So Mr. Heinrich is not at the expense of shipping the
Indians' cattle; it is the other way around.
Mr. Dalby. In this permit, as I understand— I have not examined
it recently — he is under contract to provide food or a bed or wha^
ever mav be necessary
Mrs. Grey. To ship and handle without expense to tlie Indians
their cattle, and he goes on that basis.
Mr. Dalby (continuing). For the representative of tho Indians on
his round-up. They furnish their representative, l)ut he provides
for that representative in the ordinary way that round-ups enter-
tain representatives of other interests. Those repre.sentatives are
there engaged in the round-up, as I understand it.
Senator Lane. They help in this work?
Mr. Dalby. They engage in tlie round-up, I prcsurn.-. Senator.
They are representatives. I could not testify ns to that.
2090 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Senator Lane, Now, in making this round-up in their represent-
ative capacity, they help gather his cattle the same as his own em-
ployees ?
Mr. Dalby. I could not testify on that point, Senator. Mr. Hein-
rich could answer that.
Senator Lane. How many cattle do the Indians have in the
round-up ?
Mr. Dalby. I could not state that except upon information. At
the time the arrangement was made the Indian Office, I think, as-
certained that there were 4,000 or 5,000 head, but I can not state
that except upon my recollection of v.hat they said.
Senator Lane. How many would Mr. Heinrich have on one of
these round-ups?
Mr. Dalby. How many men?
Senator Lane. No; cattle. I want to find out what the differ-
ence is.
Mr. Dalby. He would have on the round-ujD the number of cattle
that he has on the range. A round-up is for the purpose of working
the range
Senator Lane. How many cattle would he have? We know what
the purpose is. How many would there be?
Mr. Dalby. He would be doing that now. Senator.
Senator Lane. How many cattle did he have the last time?
Mr. Dalby. I could not tell you without examining the record. I
do not have it in my mind. Under his permit he was entitled to
have an average of 23,000 head.
Senator Lane. How many do you suppose the Indians had?
Mr. Dalby. I could only guess. Senator; I do not know.
Senator Lane. Mr. Scott, the agent, testified that the Indians
assisted Mr. Heinrich in making the round-up, and the principal
part of the work in making the round-up was the rounding up of
the cattle of Mr. Heinrich, not the Indians' cattle. The Indians
had a few cattle.
Mr. Dalby. Oh, I catch the drift of your question. Unques-
tionably Mr. Heinrich has vastly more cattle than the Indians have.
Kepresentative Burke. When they were rounding up 23,000 head
of cattle somebody had to be there to see that the Indians' cattle were
cut out?
Senator Lane. Yes; but the Indians were there, it developed in
the hearing, as guests of Mr. Heinrich.
Mrs. Grey. They were white men ; there was not an Indian among
them.
Representative Burke. I did not understand him to say they were
there as the guests of Mr. Heinrich. The Indian Service furnished
two or three, or whatever the number of representatives was, who
were paid by the governor, and they simply provided them with
food and kept them while the round-up lasted.
Senator Lane. And they assisted in the round-up the same as the
employees of ]\Ir. Heinrich.
JSIrs. Grey. .Vnd at the same time Mr. Heinrich agreed to do all
that without expense to the Indians.
Senator Townsend. Do you think, Mr. Dalby, that that arrange-
ment was a protection to the Indians?
Mr. Dalby. You moan to have the representative there?
CKOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2091
teenator rOAVNSEND. Do von thinl- H.of fK 1
Mr. Dalby. I do not, sir.
thelrc^aUlef'''''^''''- ^''" ^" ""' ''^"^^^ ^^^^>' «PP^-0P"aied any of
Mr. Dalby. I do not sir; I do not, very decidedlv. I shuiiM like
to have an opportunity to meet any cliarges of that kind
nrXTih\ ''^^''''- T^f '^ '''^' ^"^ opportunity there, was there not,
under that arrangement? '
Mr. Dalby. I do not see how there would be, Senator
benator TowKSEND. You have great faith in Mr. Ileinricli, and I
know nothing about him. I do not, want to make anv cliarcres
against him at all But suppose he were a dishonest man.' Sunnose
he wanted to defraud the Indians. Do you think an arran.rim-nt
whereby some men that he toolv in charge and feil, and IiouscmI and
kept wath him for a time— the chiss of men they have out thero—
would be a proper protection against a designing or dishonest man '
Mr. Dalby. I do not know of any other way of protecting the
Indians than by a representative of the Government.
Senator Tow^nsend. Did the Government select these men to "•,)
out there? "
Mr. Dalby. Unquestionably; if it did not it did not act up to its
rights.
Senator Townsend. Who selected them as the representative of
the Government?
Mr. Dalby. I presume, the superintendent. I can only slate that
upon information, however, Senator. I know that is tlie provision
of the contract, that Mr. Heinrich is to take care of the representa-
tives of the Government upon that round-up, and they are to he
there for the purpose of seeing that the terms of the permit are car-
ried out, and that the interests of the Indians are protected, and I
do not know any other way in which that could be acconiplisiu'd.
Senator Townsend. While you were out there did you hear any
complaints from the Indians that their i)roperty was l)eing confis-
cated in this way?
Mr. Dalby. I do not recall that I did. I remeinlter the (■(»ni])laints
of the Indians at that time of Mr. Ileinrich's cattle coming, as they
said, outside the Henry fence; that is. going farther north tluui they
should have gone. I may state — and I did state then in my report —
that I believe those complaints were all instigated at that time. I
do not believe that those reports arose from the belief in good faith
of the Indians.
Mrs. Grey. By Avhom were they instigated?
Mr. Dalby. Largely by Mrs. (irrey.
2092 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Mrs, Grey. Right along that line I have this charge, the same
charge that I made in the Indian Offica some time ago that resulted
in sending Inspector Norris to Crow Reservation to investigate that
identical charge; and this is his report, if I may read it into the
record :
As to section 13, wherein it is cliai-;;ed tluit the Indian herds are not properly
cared for, and that there is no sufficient supervision of tlie gathering, branding,
and shipping of cattle; that there is no proper insi)ection or report of the number
of cattle and sheep grazed on the range; and that there is no proper inspection
of general conditions on the range, I find after careful consideration tliat said
complaints are true.
Mr. Dalby. I should like to be permitted at this point to call the
commission's attention to the fact that that can not possibly be con-
strued into a criticism of Mr. Heinrich. Mr, Heinrich has lived up
faithfully and honestly to the terms of his contract. If the Govern-
ment has failed to supervise that contract properly, Mr. Heinrich can
not be charged with fault on that account. But, notwithstanding any
failure on the part of the Government, I take the responsibility of
saying that Mr. Heinrich has not injured the Indians or violated
his contract in any way.
Mrs, Grey. Mr. Dably went there as a representative of the Gov-
ernment, and after he had been fighting this matter for five years,
within three days from the time he was confirmed as inspector he
resigned to become attorney for Mr. Heinrich.
Mr. Dalby. I wish to contradict that statement positively. I did
not resign on any such condition. I resigned because I was ready
to quit the Government service. There was no condition whatever.
And I did not resign within three days after I was confirmed,
Mrs. Grey. Senator Townsend, you recall that Senator Paynter
corroborated my statement on the floor of the Senate ?
Senator Townsend. Why were you anxious to be confirmed if you
had made up your mind to resign so soon afterwards ?
Mr. Dalby. I had not made up my mind to resign so soon after-
wards.
Senator Townsend. When did you make up your mind?
Mr. Dalby. In the winter of 1908 and 1909, The fight on my
confirmation had been going on since the spring of 1908, Through
an oversight on the part of the appointment clerk of the Interior
Department my confirmation was overlooked at the first session of
the Senate after my appointment, and before it was taken up by the
Senate in regular order along in the spring the Indian Rights Asso-
ciation had begun its fight upon me.
Mrs. Grey. It was not the Indian Rights Association; it was Mrs.
Grey.
Senator Townsend. How does your compensation as attorney for
Heinrich compare with what you were receiving from the Govern-
ment ?
Mr. Dalby. I charge Mr. Heinrich for the time I pue in for him,
sir, and I charge him a reasonable rate. I charge him more than the
Government ever paid me as Indian inspector. If that statement
is not full enough, I am willing to go further.
Senator Townsend. That is sufficient. You found it to your finan-
cial advantage, then, to take a position with Mr. Heinrich?
Mr. Dalby, I do not catch the drift of your question. Senator.
I
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2093
Senator Towksend. You found it to your financial advant-.Ec to
HeinrichT' ™"'' ^'"1''°^™"' »^ '"^P^'^^or and engage witifllr
t.'een t^Two^venS' ^'''°'"'^''' ""'• ^''^^^ '^ ^ — '-» >-
Senator Towxsend. Why did you do it?
Mr. Dalby. I have stated the reason. I was rcadv to quit tho
Government service. I did not quit the service of the Government
in order to represent Mr. Heinrich. I state that without tiuulifica-
tion. '
Senator Townsekd^ Would Mr. Heinrich have employed vou if you
had not been in the Government service previously, do yoii think '
Mr. Dalby. He probably never would have hear<Y()f nle. He made
niy acquaintance and I made his upon the occasion of mv investiga-
tion of the Crow Reservation.
Senator Townsend. Now, do you think this plan of leasincr huuK- or
giving permits to men to lease lands of the Indians under The condi-
tions of these contracts is a good plan or the best plan that could
be devised?
Mr. Dalby. Now, are you asking me that question as Mr. Hcin-
rich's attorney or as a former Indian inspector?
Senator Townsend. I am asking you that as a man under oath
and testifying here.
Mr. Dalby. I did not agree to testify as to my opinions, thougli I
am perfectly willing: but anyway that would be" a matter of opinion.
Representative Burke. I think if he is attorney for ]Mr. Heinrich
he vrould hardly be expected to give an unprejudiced opinion.
Senator Tow^^SEND. That is probably true.
Mr. Dalby. I am willing to give my opinion, if the Senator
wishes it.
RepresentatiA^e Burke. "V^^iat position, if any, did you hokl in the
Indian Department before you were inspector?
Mr. Dalby. None. I was not in that department. I came (o the
Interior Department at the urgent request of Secretary (larhehl.
Representative Burke. And he had been in the Department of
Commerce ?
Mr. Dalby. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. And were you there with him?
Mr. Dalby. I was his private secretary at one time, and subse-
quently a special examiner in the Bureau of Corporations.
Representative Burke. And you came to the Interior Department
when he came to the Interior Department?
Mr. Dalby. Yes, sir.
Mrs. Grey. Right here I want to make a statement as to wluit Mr.
Heinrich has been paying for these cattle as tiie years Avent by.
This is Mr. Dalby's statement in his report: Mr. Heinrich came to
the reservation August 14, 1899, with 75 head. He paid $S a head.
Then he paid $1 a head the next year; then $3.2:>; then $1 : then $1;
then $1.33.
Senator Lane. I would like to haveMr. Meritt or some rcpresenta-
tive of the department here. I want to take up this matter of these
new permits.
2094 CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION.
TESTIMONY OF MR. E. B. MERITT, ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER OF
INDIAN AFFAIRS.
The witness was duly sworn by Senator Lane.
Senator Lane. We have been going into the question of these
leases. The complaints, I will state for your information, are these:
The Indians have complained that their allotted lands are included
in the leases to these large lessees for grazing purposes, and that the
Indians are excluded from the use of the lands or from anj^ profit
from them. They receive none of the revenue obtained from them,
nor or they allowed to rent these lands to other persons. That under
the agreement with the lessee — this gees away back into the past and
continues up to the present time— the lessee agrees to buy the hay
from them at the market rate, yet he does not do so, and they have
no other market for it, and their livelihood largely depends upon
their hay lands. They are not allowed to fence them if the super-
intendent does not see fit to give them permission to do so. That
in addition to that their only method of making a living is depend-
ent upon a certain annuity which is granted them under the terms
of some treaty of this Government, and that they do not always
receive that, and that they suffer greatly in consequence of that.
They claim, in addition, that these moneys that are acquired from
the leases are expended by Government agents in a way — ^a good
deal of it is expended in the payment of employees who are of no
particular benefit to them, and some of it is used in repairing ditches
and headgates and carrying on the irrigation work of white settlers
on the reservation, which expenses are paid for out of their funds,
as I understand — it is one of those reimbursable funds — and that
those waters are used by the white settlers, and that the Indians
themselves are excluded from the use of the water in many cases,
and that, as a consequence, their condition is deplorable.
Now, if these things are true it is a very serious condition of
affairs, and it is our duty to look into it. We find, as a matter of
fact, and it is conceded by everybody, I believe, that the Indian
Bureau does allow these lessees to use the allotted lands; that they
are not included in the price which they pay for the general lease;
that they secure the use of them for nothing, practically. The Gov-
ernment does not benefit nor does the Indian, and they are not listed
in the acreage which is estimated in the deeds.
Do you know whether that is the condition of affairs or not?
Mr. Meritt. I think that condition does, practically, exist.
Senator Lane. And that it is contrary to law ?
Mr. Meritt. I am not sure about the law. The Indian allottee
can lease his allotment, under existing law, with the approval of
the Secretary of the Interior.
Senator Lane. And also, whether you know it or not. that this
amounts to something like 400,000 or 500,00 acres of the best land on
the CroAv Reservation. Did you know that?
Mr. Mermt. I know that there are about 2,300 allotments, and it
amounts to 100,000 acres of land allotted to those Indians.
Senator Lane. Yes; the very heart of the reservation. And here
are people who are suffering for the use of this land, and here is
the Government acting as their guardian and holding over them the
arbitrary power of saying whether they can use it or not, depriving
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2095
them of the use of it and they in a condition of want. That is a
condition which has been brought to the notice of this • mn uis
sion and I think it is the duty of the commission to ascert in
whether it is true or not and, if it is true, to see that it is cLiured
11 it is m our power. ^imii^Lu,
.J^,""^' ^^"""^ you have made permits to Zimmerman & McKee and
that you have received from them the sum of $11,550 as the first', av
ment on lease on Crow Reservation, district No. 3. and vowr siS-
tures to that statement is here. Is that right « "
Mr. Meritt. I think that is correct.
T ^^A^ii^'l ^^''^- ^'^ poking «^'er the terms of that lease or permit
I find that It was made to Jerome H. McKee and D. B. Zi.nmerinan, of
Omaha Nebr., and Somerset, Pa., to hokl and graze live stock on tlie
Crow Reservation, and then it gives the district wliere it slmll be
grazed.
Do you know how much, if any, allotted land there is in tliat?
Mr. Meritt. I think probably there are some alloted land< Tliere
are allotments scattered over the greater part of the reser\ation.
Senator Lane. Do you know how many acres?
Mr. Meritt. I would have to look that up at the office.
Senator Lane. Now, it says they are allowed to graze 50.(»00 shi-ep
or 10,000 head of cattle, and that they pay for the sheep 95 cents
a head— that is what it figures out— and for the cattle $4.50 a head,
which makes an average of 3.3 cents per acre for the use of the land!
That is as nearly as I can figure out the terms of the lease, and
I have figured it over pretty carefully.
Do you know whether that is right or not ?
Mr. Meritt. I have not figured it out, Senator, but T suppose your
figures are correct.
Mr. Dalby. If the Senator will pardon the interiuption I can
enlighten him. I happen to have represented Mr. Ray, who was the
prior holder of that range, and on his behalf I negodated that ar-
rangement for him. But he was unable to make his arrangements
to make the payment, and he did not get the range; and if (hat is
as I understood it was, the same terms to McKee and Ziinnicrman
as to Ray, that Avas for the whole period, so the 95 cents wouKl be
for the whole period and not per annum, and the $4.50 for (lie cattle
would be for the whole period.
Senator Lane. You say 95 cents for the whole period. What is the
period ?
Mr. Meritt. x\bout two years.
Senator Lane. That would be 47^ cents?
Mr. Meritt. About $2.25 a head for the cattle per annum.
Senator Lane. At the rate of about 3.3 cents per acre ?
Mr. Meritt. About 40 cents a head for sheep, I tliink, is about the
rate.
Senator Lane. Do you know whether that is a fair price?
Mr. Meritt. I Avould say that would be a fair price. The <"om-
missioner entered into this contract, and he discussed (he ura((t'r with
me rather hurriedly just before he left the city, and he advised me
that this was the highest price that ever had been j)aid for cattle on
the Crow Reservation. I believe that statement is true. We arc
receiving a somewhat higher price on one other reservation for
2096 CROW INDIAN EESERVATION.
cattle, but $2.25 per head is considered a very good price for grazing
on Indian reservations.
Senator Lane. How, then, does it come that Mr. Heinrich gets his
for $1.95, and this man pays $2.25 ?
Mr. Meritt. Mr. Dalby explained that a few minutes ago. I never
have had anything to do with these leases or permits in the past. It
is a matter I am not thoroughly familiar with. We have two repre-
sentatives of the office here who have handled these leases and per-
mits on the Crow Reservation, and if I am unable to answer any
questions I believe they could answer them.
Senator Lane. Now, then, I notice that under the new permits
they are allowed to sublease.
Mr. Meritt. Not without the approval of the Commissioner of
Indian Affairs.
Senator Lane. Yes ; but with his approval they are ?
Mr. Meritt. With his approval ; yes.
Senator Lane. LTnder the old lease system they were not.
Mr. Meritt. There was no provision in the old permits, if I re-
member correctly, regarding subleasing.
Senator Lane. There was a provision in there distinctly stating
they were not allowed to, was there not ?
Mr. Meritt. I do not think there was, in the permits, at all.
Senator Lane. In the leases?
Mr. Meritt. There were provisions in the leases ; but there were no
provisions at all in the permits, as I remember.
Senator Lane. I mean the old leases. They were distinctly for-
bidden to sublet. I notice that restriction has been removed. Do
you know why that was clone ?
Mr. Meritt. That is the usual restriction in leases on all Indian
reservations, and I know of no particular reason why that provision
should be in this permit.
Senator Lane. Now, in the permit or lease to Mr. Heinrich — there
is one executed or about completed with Mr. Heinrich, is there not,
for another tract separate from this one I am mentioning?
Mr. Meritt. That permit is in process of completion now. We
telegraphed for the completion of the permit to-day.
Senator Lane. And the terms of it are stated in this document
that is here, are they not?
Mr. Meritt. It seems to be.
Senator Lane. That is No. 3. Is that what it is called?
Mrs. Grey. No. 5.
Senator Lane. No. 5.
Mr. Meritt. No. 5 is the permit with Mr. Heinrich, and No. 3 with
Mr. McKee and the other permittee.
Senator Lane. It is for 320,000 acres, and 7.500 head of cattle are
allowed to be ranged on it at a price which Mr. Dalby states, and
which I see is confirmed here, to be $1.95, or about $2. , I notice that
under the terms of the lease he has the privilege of subleasing certain
portions of it, and that also under the terms he has to purchase hay
from the Indians at the market price. That is for the protection of
the Indians?
Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. But it does not say who is to determine the market
price. How is that ascertained? Who is to set that market price?
I
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. OQC^-J
Mr. Meritt. The superintendent and the perniitt.v
Senator Lane. And the permittee?
Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. It does not say so in the pernni, ,I.,i^ it '
Mr. Meritt. I do not recall that it does. '
Senator Lane. And it does not say anywhere in the pern... a. i.,
when he shall purchase it. He may leave the Indian with the huv
on his hands until late the next sprin- and in the meantime muler tlie
permit the Indian has to keep the fence around it in -n,,.! order
Did you notice that ?
Mr. Meritt. The commissioner entered into the>e iK-in.ii^. and I
am not familiar with their terms.
Senator Lane. Then there is no use bothering; you jihoiit it Hut
I want to call your attention to that fact, that tliat seem- to \n- the
terms of the lease.
Senator Townsend. Eight in that connection, may I interrupt you ?
Prior to yoirr acting as assistant commissioner vou'were the hiw <.fii-
cer for the department, were you ?
Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir.
Senator Townsend. Did you not have to pass on these things?
Mr. Meritt. I did not pass on this permit winch has rec-eiitlv been
entered into by the commissioner. He handled that personally.
Senator Lane. You would only pass on it in regard to its form and
legality, would you not?
Senator Townsend. Ycu were asked a question a little while ago as
to whether you thought it was legal. Mr. Burke, I think, asked you
the question whether you thought it was legal to lease the allotments,
or to include these allotments in these leases. Was that ([uestion ever
submitted ?
Mr. Meritt. No, sir. Mr. Burke brought the question up the other
day for the first time, and I have considered the question somewhat
hurriedly since then. It is my opinion that we are depriving the
Indian of a treaty right when we go ahead and lease the reservation
and permit the lessees to allow their cattle to roam over the aHotment
of the Indian.
Senator Townsend. That question was never submitted to you in
the leases ?
Mr. Meritt. No, sir.
Senator Lane. Novv', then, it says in this permit that the per-
mittee further agrees to purchase, at its market vahie, all surplus
hay put up by the Indians in this district and oifered by tiiem for
sale, such hay to be properly stacked before it is purchased. The
Indians claim that those terms are so loose that if tlie lessee does
not come in the fall and buy their hay they may have to keep it
until late in the spring, and the Indian is storing that hay for the
other man's use at his own risk, and that the wire fences sometimes
becomes cut and the cattle get in, and after they have gone througli
his land he has no hay to sell, and the lessee's cattle are out <.n the
other side of the fence again, and he has no recbvss. An. he
thinks— some of them do at any rate— that if the hay is to he lied
there at such a risk, the lessee ought to be made to take the risk.
You can readily see how it might happen.
Mr Meritt. I can see that. That would hapi)eii, Mr. Cliairman,
very frequently if we did not have a vigorous superintendent on that
2098 CROW INDIAN EESEEVATION.
reservation — and I am willing to admit that we have not had a
vigorous superintendent on the Crow Eeservation during the last
three years.
Mr. Dalby. I want to make a statement on that point, if I may.
Senator Lane. We will get to you in just a minute. Now, the
Indians also claim that under this agreement there is no place agreed
upon for its delivery, and that the lessee may demand of him that
he deliver the hay some place far away.
Mrs. Grey. Thirty or forty miles away, and he has done it.
Senator Lane. He demands it of him, and if the Indian does not
do so he can, for that reason, refuse to buy it of him, and that hap-
pened last year in a number of cases and left the Indians with the
hay upon their hands. That complaint has been made to the de-
partment. Their attention has been called to it before, I called
their attention to it, and I know of others who did so.
Mr. ]\Ieritt. I believe that interpretation would not be a fair one
to give that language.
Senator Lane, I know; but under it it can be done. The lessee
can demand that the Indian deliver it at any place, and it has been
done, and it is very unfair.
Mr. Meritt, We have recently placed in charge of the Crow Reser-
vation a superintendent who would, I believe, enforce that language
along the lines that would be beneficial to the Indians.
Senator Lane. Yes; but you see how it can be worked by a man
who is not interested in the Indians. He could allow these severe
conditions to be applied under an agreement so loosely drawn. It
should be specially provided that the hay should be tendered to the
lessee and that he be compelled to accept it at the stack.
Mrs. Grey. Within 30 days or 60 days.
Senator Lane. Yes. They also say they are not compelled to buy
the hay until it has settled and at a time when it measures the lease.
Mr. Meritt. It is apparent that that language could be made
more specific.
Senator Lane. That is a loose provision there, and I had hopes
it would not get into any new agreements with any of the lessees.
Mrs. Grey^ The market value should be more carefully estab-
lished, too, because right at Sheridan and at Wyola hay went up
there one winter as high as $8, and on the Crow Reservation they
were only paying $4.50 to the Indians. When they were buying
hay there at $10 Heinrich was only paying $5, and if Mr. Heinrich
said the hay was not any good, he would not buy it at all.
Representative Burke. Mrs. Grey, do you contend that the Indian
is compelled to sell his hay to this lessee, and is deprived of the
privilege of hauling it and selling it?
Mrs. Grey. Absolutely.
Representative Burke. Is that true?
Mr. Meritt. I should say that if the Indian did not receive an
adequate price for the hay
Representative Burke. But do you intend by this lease to say that
the individual Indian allottees are required to sell their hay to the
lessee at the price that may be determined, and are not permitted to
take that hay and sell it where they can get the most for it?
Mr. Meritt. No, sir; that would not be my interpretation of the
contract.
CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2099
Eepresentative Bueke. Well, but is it done ?
Mr. Meritt. I am not familiar with the local conditions. The
department would not have authority to compel the Indian to sell
his hay or his personal property to any particular person.
Representative Burke. Do you supervise everything that the
Indian sells?
Mr. Meritt. If he is a noncompetent Indian, we do.
Representative Burke. Now, if he has got a stack of hav, I want
to ascertain whether this lessee has arl)itrarily tlie right to'take that
hay at any time he sees fit, under the conditions that Senator Lane
has indicated as to the measurement and the place of delivery.
Mr. Meritt. Not without the consent of the allottee, of the 'Indian
himself.
Senator Lane. It has been done in the past, has it not? It has
been claimed by the Indians in many instances that that is exactly
what has happened : in fact, that tenders have been made to them for
their hay at a price in excess of the price which was named in the
permit or lease, and they were not allowed to sell it to the intending
purchaser, nor did they ever sell it at all.
Representative Burke. Because the lessee did not take it.
Mrs. Grey. Last winter Mr. Booz paid about a thousand dollars
to the Indians, and he was not permitted to use that hay nor to carry
it away. It had to stand there, and it is standing there^ to-day,
Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, we realize that conditions have not
been favorable on the Crow Reservation. For that reascm we have
found it necessary to change the superintendent there, and we have
sent a new superintendent to that reservation within the last IT) davs,
and he is one of the most vigorous superintendents in the Indian
Service ; and if he is not able to handle the Crow Reservation satis-
factorily, we have not a man in the service who can.
Senator Lane. That is all right; I know you are trying to improve
it. I believe that, Mr. Meritt; I am sure of it. But here you have
entered into an agreement with the lessee in which the terms are as
loosely drawn as the}^ ever were in the past under conditions about
which great complaint has been made.
Do you knoAv how much land they have there?
Mr. Meritt. How much altogether?
Senator Lane. In this lease Xo. 5. It says 320,000 acres here.
Mr. Meritt. Something over 300,000; I do not know the e.xact
number of acres.
Senator Lane. Is there not a great deal of land not estimated in
here, bringing it up to about 400,000 acres?
Mr. Meritt. I do not know about that.
Senator Lane. There may be?
Mr. Meritt. It is possible that there is a large acreage of allot-
ments within that area.
Senator Lane. Here are 800 or 1,000 acres of land not accounted
for, or maybe more, not recognized in this lease at all
Representative Burke. Is there anything in that lease similar to
the former lease that excludes the allotted land?
Senator Lane. I do not see it; I will look it over.
Mrs. Grey. There was in the old ones, but not in these.
35601— PT 15—14 19
2100 CEOW INDIAN EESERVATION.
Senator Lane (referring to map). Here the map says 400,000.
Is this No. 5? You see, that is a hirger area. It looks like it is half
as large again. There is something like 100.000 acres, perhaps 200,000
acres, unaccounted for in this permit. There is something wrong
about that. There is absolutely something wrong with this permit.
I am going to say right now, in a kindly spirit, that I challenge this
document as being unlawful. There is some mistake. Your depart-
ment has not had the proper information presented to it in order to
make a proper lease.
And I notice further that you have taken the estimate of Mr.
Heinrich, apparenth% for tlie number of cattle that go onto it, and I
find no check by anyone else as to whether that is true or not.
JNIr. Meritt. There will be a round-up, Mr. Chairman, and those
cattle will be counted by representatives of the Indian Bureau.
Senator Lake. I was wondering how you would know when you
gave him this permit for 7,500 cattle, for a figure of $15,000, how
many cattle he was going to put on there.
Mr. ]\Ieritt. Well, if he puts on more than the amount named in
the permit we will require him to pay for the additional cattle.
Senator Lak^e. How are you going to find it out?
INIr. Meritt. There will be a round-up; probably two round-ups
each year.
Senator Lane. And you send j-our representatives out?
]\Ir. JNIeritt. Representatives of the agency to count the cattle.
]\Irs. Grey. This man Campbell.
INIr. Meritt. The superintendent, Mr. Estep, will be there at that
round-up. He is the new superintendent.
Senator Lane. Now, I Avant to call your attention to the fact that
you are getting apj^arently somewhere between 3 and 4 cents an acre
for the use of that land.
I want to call your attention to a letter I received a while back
from Mr. Graves, the Forester. There were some sheepmen out in
my State — not altogether m my State; some were u]:i m Idaho — ^who
wished to lease land for grazing sheep on a forest reserve, and they
wrote to me to see if I could secure them a price. December 1, 1913,
I had this letter from the head Forester :
United States Department of Agriculture,
Forest Service,
Washington, December 1, 1013.
Hon. Harry Lane,
United States Senate:
By letter of August 2 Mr. Montie B. Gwinn, secretary of tbe Malheur Live
Stock & Laufl Co., solicited your assists uce in securing a reduction in the
fees clinrgetl for grazing i)rivi]eges within the national forests. My letter of
August 1(5, in reply to yours of August 11, stated that the matter would be
taken under consideration by the Secrelary and a definite decision reached as
soon as other Senators and Kepresentatives from Western States had had an
opportunity to express their views.
After giving careful consideration to the various representations which have
been submitted, tbe Secretary has decided that no general change in fees will
be adopted at the i)i'esent time, and has authorized me to es'ablish grazing fees
for the season of 1!)14 on the same general basis as the present season. With
a few unimportant changes, the fees which I shall establish will be exactly
.the same as those charged during the season of 11)13.
In 1011 the Forest Service made an exhaustive study of tbe prices charged
for grazing privileges ui)on private, railroad. State lands. Indian Reservations,
and lleclamation Service withdrawals. Approximately 1,500 cases were re-
er-
a
CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. O^Ql
ported by the field officers, aud after eliiiiiiviiiiK^ .,11 ....c,. , , ,
fenced or where other conditions nrpvin/v^^^ "^"^ "■'"'''' "'^' ''""'-^ ^^■^''•«
lands, a total of 000 casef emaLe^^^^^ ^^''^'^ "''' f-'^'^t
was found that on the private or other controllon r"" " ^^'. '"^' '"">>'- ^'
age rate per month wai 3.6 cents per head fur he^'/nd'^T ''''' V''
for cattle. In other words, the avera-e ch M-."e no, ?u .. , r V' '"''"•'' '''''■ ^^'''
cent of the average per head of c-mif 'n ^!.,'J! '• ''^ T''*''''* "■''•'* •*<^' >'*
the Forest ServicS for the jeiuaon^ feriods nroTiT'^^ ^''^' ostnl.iishtHl l.y
basis of 30 per cent of the'^a? cTn^ ^^fo'c o 'vf ;r",i;'"M'""'. •'/"
was made the average charge per monti fur the use of thl u aiu. 'f.. ^ f "^/
was 1.4 cents per head for sheep and 3.0 cents p?r^Vdf< re m^'o-ss and
83.3 per cent, respectively, of the average ch-ir-P^ f.,,- tiw. , -J / . "
other Government lands. * 'since thaJTiS uleVS J^ ! Selvul"!!;;;;; IJ
6 ock have been brought into closer adjustment by a slight mluVtfun ., hi
charge for sheep and a slight increase in the charge for c.-mie
The permittees using the national forests for grazing purposes are h..Ine
granted very valuable privileges at purely nominal rates.' Uodrsprtf
between tne fees paid for the use of the national forests and the fees a ,r
other grazing land is so great that I feel strongly that any oluui^-e in . 1.. In
the fees should be in the nature of an incre.-.se ntther than"; reducUu,; i.,,v°
ever, I reccgnize that the stock growers are now confronted with .■ertain con-
ditions which may possibly have an adverse influence upon their indu-trv and
because of this fact. I have recommended that no changes be made in the
fees now charged.
Very truly, yours,
H. S. Graves, Forester.
Now, these are for lands which are used just half the time, and
some of them only a third of the time, and it seemed to me that your
rates where you are throwing in 100,000 or 200,000 acres were not
in projoer proportion.
Mr. Meritt. I believe the figures will show that we are getting
anywhere from 50 to 100 per cent more for leasing on Indian reserva-
tions than the Forest Service gets on forest reserves.
Senator Lane. But you lease by the full year, and most of their
lands are leased for two or three months, and, in addition to that,
you apparently throw in on the Crow Reservation a third more land
than you collect pay for.
Mr. Meritt. Those allottees should be permitted to lease tlieir
allotments. My attention has been called to this matter which Mrs.
Grey has read into the record this evening, and after studyin<; the
matter, and after the matter was presented to me by Mr. HiuKe, it
is my opinion, as a matter of law, that those allottees shoiiUl be per-
mitted to lease their allotments; provided, of coiir.«e. if their aUot-
ments are leased, that either the allottee, or the permittee or lessee
should be permitted to fence that allotment.
That letter that I signed was written by Mr. Camjibell, who
handled the lease desk, and is a continuation of the policy adopted
three j'-ears ago. I might say that I am not in sympathy witii that
policy. I think the allottees should be permitted to lease their allot-
ments, and the}^ should be permitted to receive compensation from
those leases.
Representative Burke. Mr. Meritt, in view of the fact that the
original leases, up to the time that the permit .system began, con-
tained a provision expressly excludinir from the lease t!ie allotted
lands of Indians if the lessee has used them, is he not liaide to the
Indians for the use of those lands?
Mr. Meritt. It seems to me that we could claim from the les-^ee
an amount sufficient to reimbur.se the allottee for the gra^< ImKi-h off
his allotment.
2102 CROW INDIAN EESERVATION.
Representative Burke. What do you think about the propriety
of the department attempting to collect from a lessee what it tacitly
and in fact allowed the lessee that privilege, and it was understood
that he might have that privilege?
Mr. Meritt. I do not believe that was tacitly agreed to or under-
stood in these permits entered into by Commissioner Sells.
Representative Burke. The letter that was written by Mr. Abbott
in 1912, following the letter of Mr. Scott and the letter signed by
you that Mrs. Grey read earlier in the evening, seemed to contem-
plate that that was understood.
Mr. MERirr. Since you raised the question the other day, I am not
satisfied with the letter I signed prepared by Mr. Campbell, of the
Land Division.
Mrs. Gret. I want to ask Mr. Meritt whether the department ia
going to continue to allow subleasing?
Mr. Meritt, In regard to subleasing, I might say, Mr. Chairman,
that I signed a letter to-day to the superintendent requiring him to
submit reports and get affidavits from each lessee and permittee on
the Crow Reservation showing what subleases had been made by
each lessee or permittee, and giving detailed information regarding
the amount received and the number of cattle, and general informa-
tion. I shall be glad to furnish this commission a copy of that re-
port when it is received.
Senator Lane. Can you not also find out what proportion of
allotted lands they have that the Government is receiving no pay for?
Mr. JMeritt. I think we can, and if it is possible to obtain that in-
formation— and I think we can get it — I shall be glad to submit it.
Senator Townsend. Have you ever been on the reservation?
Mr. Meritt. No, sir.
Senator Tow^nsend. I notice some testimony here to the effect that
some of the Indians raise hay and fence it. I evidently am not
clear in my understanding of this, as I had supposed that these
Indian allotments had been included in the leases. Evidently some
of the land is not included in the leases and not used by the lessee.
Is that correct ?
Mr. Meritt. The amount that is allotted is not included in the
leases, but the lessees get the benefit of the allotments of the Indians
if they are not fenced ?
Mrs. Grey. May I explain how that is?
Senator Townsend. Yes.
Mrs. Grey. On the range, you see, the grass begins to grow in the
spring. The cattle may not come to that allotment until much later.
So in the spring and up to June and July they cut the hay and fence
it up. Then when the lessee comes and buys his hay he buys it on
the condition that he may use the range from which it was cut.
Senator Townsend. Then the lessee does make an arrangement
with the allottee for the use of his land ?
Mrs. Grey. And pays him nothing for it. The allottee makes
objection to his doing it, but he always does do it.
Senator Lane. They have the agreement in here that he shall have
his hay.
Mrs. Grey. But wdien he does come and buy his hay he always
uses all the range that there is, with the result that the Indians now
have very little hay to sell.
CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2103
Mr. Meritt. Since this question has been raised, Mr. Chairman I
am going to have the question gone into very carefully by our h.w
force m the office and by the superintendent, and if it is n()s,sible
tor the office under the law and under the leases, and under the
permits, to collect for the benefit of these allottees the value of their
grazing lands, that action will be taken.
Mrs. Grey. And also as to their overstocking the range. Now on
this Heinrich range he was acknowlediiinc. I think, 3,000 head—
$3,000 a year, at $1 a head. AVhen Mr^Dalbv came 'in 'as attorney
they voluntarily came in and paid $44,800, and it was said at that
time on the reservation that they put no more cattle on. Conse-
quently they must have had a 'large overstocking. There is no
question that they had. When they were trying to send me up at
Helena that was Mr. Dana's testimony. It was the testimony of the cat-
tlemen around there that Mr. Heinrich had nine or ten times as many
cattle as he was running. It would be a very easy matter, because
there are notes in here — you see, he is not tlie owner of the cattle.
Mr. Heinrich is the manager. Mr. Bostwick is supposed to be the
owner. If that is so, all those cattle are held on a mortgage.
Senator Tow^-SEND. "Was not your attention called to these matters
before this permit was made?
Mr. Meritt. This last permit? The commissioner handled that
personally.
Senator Townsend. The department's attention was called to it,
was it not? You knew that there were complaints and that there
had been some committee hearings? I think it was brought up at
the last year's committee hearings.
Mr. Meritt. This matter of the leasing and the rights of the
allottees was not called to my attention directly as a legal matter
until Mr. Burke spoke to me a few days ago.
Mrs. Grey. Oh, I called it to your attention, INIr. Meritt.
Senator Townsekd. My recollection is that this was before the
committee a year ago. These matters were discussed, but not in de-
tail as they are now. Mr. Meritt was the law officer at that time,
and I was trying to find out if the matter had not been fcirmally
called to the attention of the department so that Commissioner Sella
knew of it.
Mrs. Grey. Senator Townsend, here is a hearing of 1908 where
identically the same charges were made. I gave the names of the
Indians who were trying to use their allotments and could not.
Senator TowKSE^'D. I am very clear on that, that that is not a new
matter, and that it has been before the department, at least, since
I have been interested in Indian matters. I have not known the de-
tails of it, but I have known that complaints have been made and
filed. At least they have been given to the department.
Senator Lane. Before this permit?
Senator Townsend. Before this permit.
Senator Lane. Oh, yes; I sent in a number of them myself.
Mrs. Grey. Mr. :Meritt, do vou remember my coming down and
talkincT to Commissioner Sells before I went West, and how many
hours and hours we put in? That was one of the things we were
talking about. , . ^,
Senator Lane. Now, Mr. Meritt, I want to ask you, Is the money
obtained from leasing reservation lands given to tlu- Indians?
2104 CEOW INDIAN KESEEVATION.
Mr. Meritt, Part of the money is used for administrative pur-
poses, and part of it paid to the Indians, and part of it deposited to
their credit.
Senator Lane. Is there any money paid to the Indians from this
leasing ?
Mr. Mekitt. There was a per capita payment made to the Indians
this year. I do not know whether any of this lease money was used
in making that per capita payment or not.
Senator Lane. AVas that not the annuity which was due last Oc-
tober ?
Mr. Meritt. There is certain money required to be paid to the
Crow Indians, and I would have to look it up in the finance division
to find out what money was used.
Senator Lane. I think you will find that none of this money was
paid to them, and that they did not receive their annuity money last
year at all.
Kow, would the interest of the Indians be better served by elimi-
nating the leasing of their lands to outsiders and letting them go
into the stock business themselves?
Mr. INIeritt. I think it would be to the interest of the Indians to
stock their reservation with cattle. It would take an enormous
amount of money to stock that reservation, however.
Senator Lane. It would cost them no more than it would cost any-
body else, would it?
Mr. Merttt. No. I think there are about 50,000 head of cattle on
the Crow Reservation, and it would take a great deal of money to
buy that number of head of cattle for the Indians.
Mrs. Grey. The annuity did include not only the grazing money,
but also a lot of money that came from the sale of lands.
Mr. Meritt. The Crow Indians have a large amount of money to
their credit at this time.
Senator Lane. How much have they?
Mr. Meritt. The Finance Division got up a statement this after-
noon, and, if I remember correctly, they have something like $900,000
to their credit.
Senator Lane. Is it not a queer condition of affairs that some of
them should be actually in a starving condition with $900,000 of
money belonging to them and hundreds of thousands of acres of
land?
]\Ir, Meritt. It is a rather unusual condition.
Senator Lane. I wrote to Commissioner Sells about the condition
of those Indians being pitiful and their having written me asking
if there was not anything to be done for them, and I asked him about
the annuity, and in this letter, dated April G, he informs me that —
By reason of the long delay and tlie discouraging telegrams sent out by tliis
office, the superintendent had evidently informed the Indians that the annuity
payment would not be made, for he states:
"All of our ludiiins have profited by the withholding of the usual annuity
payment and have awakened to the fact that they will of necessity have to
make some effort to support themselves. Not since I have had charge of the
reservation has there been so general an inclination among them to get to
work."
Mrs. Grey. And that is so mean, too, Senator Lane, that he should
write things like that.
Senator Townsend. Who wrote that ?
CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2105
Senator Lane. That was from the superintendent, Mr. Scott
Mr. Meritt. I might say it is reco-uized that small annuity Dav-
ments are never beneficial to the Indians as a class. I belieu' Mr
Burke s experience in the Sioux country will bear that statement out*
Senator Lane, les; if you provide these Indians ^vith land and
irrigate it, and then give them tools Avith which to work, and some
inducement to work, the annuity need not be paid them; but if you
do not provide them with farm implements, and they are unable to
work the land, and the lessee will not buy their hav until he ''cts
ready, or not at all, or if his cattle come through the /ence and eaT it
and the Indian has nothing, then an annuity would come in very
handy.
Mrs. Grey. Senator Lane, I was out there last fall, and the In-
dians' thrasher was being used by the lessees. The Indians could
not have it until the snow had lain on their wheat until away into
February. If an Indian goes in and improves a place he has to
move; som.e of those Indians have been moved live times. If an
Indian makes a good place, he has to move off. Look at the land
Heinrich has got en that reservation. It is not the Indians' fault
Senator Lane. Has Mr. Heinrich acquired title?
Mrs. Grey. Oh; thousands and thousands of acres. 1 want to
show you some of his titles before we get through.
Senator Lane. Do vou know whether that is true or not. Mr.
Meritt ?
Mr. Meritt. About 2,300 Indians have been allotted. About one-
third of those Indians have died. Under the Burke Act the depart-
ment has authority to issue patents in fee to competent Indians, and
under the noncompetent Indian act we can sell the land of the
allottees on their application. We can also sell, under the act of
1902, the allotments of deceased Indians, and undoubtedly quite a
large acreage of the allotted lands on the Crow Reservation have
been sold.
Senator Lane. How do you sell them?
Mr. Meritt. To the highest bidder.
Mrs. Grey. Now, Mr. Meritt, they are supposed to. be, but very
frequently there is but one bidder, and if anyone else bids they don't
get it; that is all.
Representative Burke. It is appraised?
Mr. Meritt. The lands are appraised, Mr. Chairman, and then
they are advertised for sale to the highest bidder. If the bid ecjuals
the appraisal, the bidder gets the land.
Mrs. Grey. But they are very frequently sold at private sale.
Mr. JNIeritt. There are not very many private sales of land made,
Mrs. Grey.
;Mrs. Grey. There should -not be, but there are.
Mr. Meritt. It is a rare occasion.
Representative Burke. Mr. Meritt, are you prepared at this time
to give us the amount of money that has been received annually from
rentals on this reservation for the last five years consecutively?
Mv. Meritt. We are receiving about $150,000 a year at this time
for grazing on the Crow Reservation. I am not prepared to give
you the exact figures. I remember, however, that CoiumisMoticr
Valentine increased the amount received from grazing almost twice
the amount that had been received prior to his turning down the
bids and readvertising.
2106 CKOW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Eepresentative Burke. How much was that annuity payment
that was made this year, per capita? Do you know?
Mr. Meritt. About $15, I think; between $12 and $15, if I re-
member correctly.
Rej^resentative Burke. Now, this money that is received from
these leases, does that go into the Treasury to the credit of the tribe
and go into their funds in the Treasury, and then is it expended for
administrative and other purposes on the reservation?
Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. Can you tell us what proportion of the
money received from rentals has been paid to the Indians per
eaj^ita ?
Mr. Meritt. It is my impression that we are paying out some-
thing less than $100,000 a year for administrative expenses on that
reservation.
Senator Lane. How many Indians are there ?
Mr. Meritt. Two thousand three hundred.
Representative Burke. Then you are paying about two-thirds of
the amount received from rentals in maintaining the expenses inci-
dent to the administration of the agency ?
Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir.
Mrs. Grey. I think it is more than that.
Representative Burke. Now, Mr. Meritt, what is your opinion, as
a practical proposition, as to whether or not it would be feasible to
lease this reservation if the lessee were required to absolutely keep
off of the individual allotments of the Indians? Would it be prac-
ticable ?
Mr. Meritt. It would be rather difficult, Mr. Burke.
Representative Burke. Do you think any lessee would make a
lease if he understood that he would be required to literally live up
to the terms of his lease and keep his cattle off these individual
allotments ?
Mr. Meritt. It would be practically impossible for him to do
that.
Representative Burke. And if that were required you would
probably be unable to lease it?
Mr. Meritt. Except to small cattle owners.
Representative Burke. Now, there are about 3,000,000 acres of
land in this Crow Reservation and about 2,300 allotments?
Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. And have substantially all of the Indians
been allotted?
Mr. Meritt. There are Indians born since the allotment rolls were
closed who have not been allotted.
Representative Burke. But, outside of new-borns, the Indians
have been allotted ?
Mr. Meritt. Practically all of them.
Representative Burke. Now, what do you think is the possibility
of the Indian to make any progress if this s^'stem of leasing is con-
tinued and 50,000 head of stock are to be ranged upon this reserva-
tion, as is the case at the present time?
Mr. Meritt. I think it would be difficult for the Indians to make
any progress along agricultural lines. And I believe further that it
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2lU7
should be the policy of the department and the Indian Office to en-
courage the Indians to make use of their allotments
Representative Burke. And is that possible while vou maintain
this leasing system?
Mr. Meritt. It would be rather difficult
Representative Burke. What has been the positicm, if vou know,
of the office on this legislation that has been pending at dilTerent
times in Congress with reference to doing as has been done on the
reservations generally— disposing of the unallotted and surplus lands
to white settlers?
Mr. Meritt. My position on that has been to oppose the opening
of the Crow Reservation at this time, for the reason that the Crows
have a large amount of ceded land that has not been dispose.l of.
Representative Burke. And pending the disposition of the land
that has been ceded, it is your idea that the reservation ought to be
kept as it is without opening up any portion of it ?
Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. And on account of the fact that the
Indians are not using these lands, the office has been endeavoring
to secure a revenue therefrom by a system of leasing?
Mr, Meritt. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. Well, now, if it is found that you <an not
under the law continue this system of leasing, what would you sug-
gest ought to be done ?
Mr. Meritt. I would suggest that we prepare an allotment act
along the lines of the Osage act, allotting all the land within the Crow
Reservation to the Crow Indians.
Representative Burke. What is the title of the Crows, if you
know, to their reservation?
Mr. Meritt. It is a treaty reservation, I think.
Representative Burke. They do not have the fee? They merely
have the possessory right, do they not?
]Mr. Meritt. They have a possessory right, but they also have a
property right in that land.
Representative Burke. It is your judgment that the proceeds of
those lands, no matter how they are disposed of, should go to the
Indians?
Mr. Meritt. Yes, indeed.
Representative Burke. To be paid to him outright ?
Mr. Meritt. I would not say that the money should be paid to
the noncompetent Indians. Tlie money should be paid to the com-
petent Indians and used for the benefit of the noncompetent.
Representative Burke. You have $900,000 in the Treasury now to
the credit of the tribe from the proceeds, I presume, of the sale of
surplus lands?
Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. Wliat do you do with that UK.nev?
Mr. Meritt. We are buying cattle for them, expeiuling about
$400,000, if I recollect, for cattle which are being placed on the
reservation this month.
Representative Burke. A tribal herd?
Mr. Meritt. That is a tribal herd: yes, sir.
Mrs. Grey. There w^as an act passed in 1901 under which the tribal
herd ceased to exist. It is illegal.
2108 CEOW INDIAN EESERVATION.
Representative Burke. Now, Mr. Meritt, is not this true, that the
only person that would be inclined to purchase lands of competent
Indians and noncompetent Indians, and deceased Indian lands, would
be the lessee?
Mr. Meritt. Yes, sir; to a large extent they would be the prin-
cipal purchasers.
Representative Burke. In other words, with the present leasing
system in operation, an outside individual would not consider it a
desirable investment to purchase a small tract of land in this area?
Mr. Meritt. No, sir.
RepresentatiA'e Burke. And therefore the lessee, to quite an ex-
tent, dominates the conditions on that reservation?
Mr. Meritt. That is true to a large extent.
Representative Burke. And is it not your experience that if any
effort is made to reduce the reservation by disposing of any portion
of it for the purpose of homestead settlements, etc., they oppose
anything of that kind? Do they not want the same conditions to
obtain?
Mr. JNIeritt. The lessees might want the land thrown open so
they could purchase it at its appraised value.
Representative Burke. Oh, if it was all going to be sold. But
if we were going to authorize the sale of a portion of this area under
the homestead law, as we have other reservations, the lessee would
oppose it, would he not?
Mr, Meritt. He would oppose the homestead feature, undoubt-
edly.
Representative Burke. Do you know, or have you any informa-
tion by which you can give us any information as to whether or not
when bills were pending contemplating the opening of some part of
this reservation, delegations of Crow Indians came here who were
paid to come here by some of these lessees?
Mr. Meritt. I have no positive information on that subject.
Representative Burke. Have you any information as to whether
or not attorneys, paid by these lessees, have come before committees
of Congress claiming to represent the Indians, and accompanied by
Indians, and claiming they were representing them, and filing pro-
tests?
Mr. Meritt. I Iniow that there were bitter fights before the com-
mittees of Congress in connection with the opening of the Crow Res-
ervation.
Representative Burke. Do you know that attorneys have been
before committees of Congress claiming they were representing the
Indians, and that it was the wish of the Indians that these lands be
not opened?
Mr. Meritt. There has been a great deal of misrepresentation
along that line.
Mrs. Grey. Pardon me, however. The Indians that came here
and the lessees all wanted the reservation opened. Keppler &
Merillat's bill was to open the reservation. I never heard of one
that did not. And every delegation of Indians that came here
wanted it opened.
Mr. Meritt. The local people have recently held meetings up in
that country and have petitioned that the reservation be opened.
CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2109
Kepresentative Burke. Was it net the intention of the allotment
act, m allottmor lands individually to Indians that after the allot-
ments were made then the surplus lands should he disposed of to set-
tlers in order to get white people in among the Indians?
Mr. Meritt. That, I believe, was the intention of the drafters of
the original allotment act, and has been the practice to a lar"e extent
of the Indian Bureau in opening reservations. '^
Eepresentative Burke. Well, an individual allotment, undt-r the
conditions that obtain on the Crow Reservation, with a few excep-
tions, is of practically no value to the Indian from any standpoint?
;Mr. Meritt. Not as it has been conducted in the past.
Representative Burke. And you can not make it so where they
have 50,000 or 100,000 head of cattle.
Mrs. Grey. I, for one, have been making a very vigorous fi«;lit
against the opening of the Crow Reservation, for the reason that you
can not get any title. They have not a decent roll on tl^it reserva-
tion. The Indians have been moved so many times that they are not
on their original allotments, and I bejieve" the whole Crow roll is
forged. Those allotments have been illegally canceled and sold
in such a way that the Indian title has not been extinguished, and
yet they have been taken up as homesteads.
Senator Townsexd. How do you propose to liandle these cattle
you are putting on the reservation up there?
Mr. Meritt. We intend to handle them as a tribal herd, Senator;
to restrict them within a certain area, and let the Indians get the ben-
efit of the grass on the reservation rather than lease it to white
lessees.
Senator Toavnsend. Do you propose that this herd shall run over
the allotted land the same as the others do?
Mr. Meritt. Unless the allotments are fenced they probably will
run over the allotted lands.
Mrs. Grey. Are the Indians in favor of the tribal herd?
Mr. INIeritt. I think the majority of the Indians are in favor of it
Mrs. Grey. I have never heard of one Indian on the Crow Reser-
vation willing to have a tribal herd.
Senator Lane. I want to ask 5^ou how many additional employees
you will have to hire to take care of this herd; have you figured on
that?
Mr. Meritt. Very few additional employees.
Senator Lane. You will take care of them with the pre-ent force?
]\Ir. Meritt. Well, with probably some line riders ami herders.
Senator Lane. Have you made any provision for storing hay for
these cattle for next winter when the hard weather conies?
Mr. Meritt. We will get the hay from the allottees.
Senator Lane. AVill they have enough to carry these cattle?
Mr. Meritt. The allottees will undoubtedly prefer to give the hay
that they raise to the Government so as to protect their own cattle
rather than sell it to the lessees. , . . ,
Senator Lane. Will you buy it of them or will they give it to youT
Mr. Meritt. We expect to buy it.
Senator Lane. Is this wild hay?
Mr. Meritt. It is natural hay; yes.
Senator Lane. Are you making any effort to set out alfalfa, or to
raise grain hay, or any other kind of hay?
2110 CROW INDIAN EESERVATION.
Mr. Meritt. There has been very little agricultural work on that
reservation,
Mrs. Grey. The wild grass is worth much more than the alfalfa.
Senator Lane. I know, but it does not produce so much to the acre,
does it ?
Mrs. Grey. Yes ; the wild hay there grows as high as my head.
Senator Lane. What is it?
Mrs. Grey. It is what they call blue stem.
Senator Lane, Is not alfalfa more valuable for cattle feed than
blue stem?
Mrs. Grey. You take these good cattle men, and they will irrigate
the wild hay and cultivate that much rather than anything else.
Senator Lane. I am of the opinion^and you can take it for what
it is worth — that you will not make an entire success of cattle with
the Indians. I will tell you why. There will come a hard winter when
you will have to haul feed to your stock. That is very hard work,
and the Indian does not like it. They will have to go out and work
all day iii the coldest weather of winter, in the storms.
The Indian is a horseman. Give him horses, a horse can and will
paw through the snow, and will live almost anywhere. They take to
horses, and they take care of them, and they like them better than
cattle. By raising enough cattle to eat and raising horses for profit,
I think they will do better than they will with cattle alone.
Mrs. Grey. The Crows have had large bunches of cattle until Mr.
Heinrich came along and took the cattle away from them.
Mr. Meritt. The cattle proposition on the Crow Reservation would
not be a success if the cattle were issued to the individual Indians,
but if the cattle are continued as a tribal herd I think they can be
made a success.
Mrs. Grey. I want to differ very decidedly. The history of the
reservation will show they have had tribal herds on that reservation,
and they have never prospered. When the Indians were permitted
to run their own cattle, the receipts will show, the Indians had lots
of cattle.
Mr. Meritt. The Indians will eat their cattle, Mr. Chairman -,
Mrs. Grey. That is a story that has been told here, and it is not
true.
Mr. Meritt (continuing). And for that reason a large number
of them will not increase their herds.
Mrs. Grey. Where do you get your information?
Mr. Meritt. General information that comes to me.
Mrs. Grey. It is very general, but it does not come from the In-
dians themselves, and it is not so.
Senator Townsend. It seems to be practically admitted that what
leasing has been done there has been illegal. I think, if that is true —
and I am inclined to believe it is true, and I so believed a year ago —
1 think somebody is responsible. Somebody owes the Indians some
money; land has been taken without compensation. Now, we are get-
ting testimony of these facts as to delinquencies and defects in the
administration of their affairs. When it comes to settling upon a
policy that we want to report on, that is a matter we will take up in
executive session, probably. I must confess, so far as I am con-
cerned, that I see many difficulties in almost any plan you have a
mind to adopt.
CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. O]]]
I think it has been the consensus of opinion of the commis.si.„i that
we ought to do something that is goin- to in.pn.ve the In.liau not
only financially but as a citizen and n.ai^e him independent i w v.
The present plan will not do it. This phui w. have now certainly
has no tendency in that direction, as 1 hx.k at it, but I am not pre
pared to-mght to suggest oft'-hand a better phui. I can .VtWlse
things, and it is one of the objects of this commission to find out about
the administration of the aliairs of the Indian Bureau, and to-night
particularly with reference to the Crows. Anything we have bi'ir-
ing on the conduct of their affairs, of course, is 'proper, an.l we ou-ht
to have It, but we have a big job before use when we get down" to
work and take up these matters of administration and recommend
the thing that ought to be done in the future.
Mr. Dalby. Mr. Chairman, it is not my desire to make any sug-
gestion to the commission with reference to matters of policy 1
would simply say on that point that, as far as Mr. Heinrich is' con-
cerned, he would have the same attitude toward any change of policy
which you gentlemen may determine upon that he annou'iiced to the
Commissioner of Indian Affairs with respect to the purchase of In-
dian cattle and the consequent reduction of his range. He will meet
any change in the conditions, simply asking that he have reasonalilc
notice of the change in order that he may accommodate himsell" to it.
But I do wish to say that I have listened to a great many statements,
and I have read a good many statements since I have had an oppor-
tunity to examine the record in the past week, and, so far as they re-
late to Mr. Heinrich, I should be very glad to set the true facts before
your commission, in order that you may consider them in connection
with other facts in reaching your final conclusion. With a view to
making that sort of statement I would like to take the liberty of sug-
gesting that the record, as far as it has thus far been pi-epared m
these hearings, should be printed; and, on Mr. Heinricli's behalf, I
will promise to put before you such facts as affect him, or the facts
in respect to the matters that have been alleged affecting him.
Mrs. Grey. Eight there, Mr. Chairman, does the oath you take here
amount to anything at all — to tell the truth ?
Senator Lane, It is presumed to.
Mrs. Grey. If people come before this commission and make false
statements, is there any recourse to be had ?
Senator Lane. A very severe penalty is attached to it.
Mrs. Grey. Now, I have been making a good many statenients
here. This matter has been thrashed out over and over. The Senate
committee had Mr. Dalby down before it and refused him his con-
firmation for five sessions on account of his false .statements. Xo\y,
if he comes before this committee and makes false statements, or if
I make false statements, I want it known.
Mr. Dalby. May I be permitted to contradict that statement? It
is without foundation in fact.
Senator Lane. I do not see how we can prove it, if you jieople will
not agree in any of your statements. We would have to take outside
testimony on that. 'Would there be any way of getting Mr. Hein-
rich here?
Mr. Dalby. Mr. Heinrich has at present about as much as any one
man can possibly do, but when he is able I am sure he would be glud
to meet vour commission. At present he is up against the proposi-
2112 CEOW INDIAN EESEEVATION.
tion of readjusting a property that is worth upward of a million
dollars. That property, as has been called to your attention, is nec-
essarily carried partly on borrowed capital. The necessity to close
that property out, practically without notice, subjects him to a
shrinkage in value which on the most conservative estimate may be
10 per cent.
Senator Lane. Does Mr. Heinrich own these cattle?
Mr. Dalby. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Is he the sole owner?
Mr. Dalby. He is the owner, sir.
Senator Lane. Is he in partnership with Mr. Bostwick, or anyone
else that you know of?
Mr. Dalby. I do not know of his having any partner at all. I
know that he has borrowed capital in his business, and there is no
cattleman in the West that I know of that has not borrowed capital
in his business.
Senator Lane. Do 3'ou know whether Mr. Bostwick is interested
in the Heinrich Cattle Co. or not?
Mr. Dalby. There is no Heinrich Cattle Co.
Senator Lane. Well, Mr. Heinrich?
Mr. Dalby. F. M. Heinrich is the owner of the herds upon that
lease.
Senator Lane. Is he the sole owner?
Mr. Dalby. As far as I know, he is?
Senator Lake. Do you know whether he is?
Mr. Dalby. That is my information, sir. I have never investi-
gated. That is Mr. Heinrich's statement to me.
Senator Lane. Do you know whether Mr. Bostwick is interested!
Mr. Dalby. I understand that he is not.
Senator Lane. You do not know whether that is true?
Mr. Dalby. I can only state it on information.
Mrs. Grey. Mr, Heinrich signs there as manager.
- Mr. Dalby. Will you show me that signature, Mrs. Grey?
Mrs. Grey. Senator Lane had it there.
Senator Lane. It says, " Frank M. Heinrich, manager." Now,
that was September 27, 1913. This is a certificate sworn to before
William A. Petzolclt, notary public, Lodge Grass, Mont. He is not
the owner at all. He does not claim to be owner.
Mrs. Grey. Mr. Heinrich testified that when he shipped cattle
Mr. Dalby. If I may make a statement about that, Senator, I
should be glad to do so. •
Senator Lane. Yes.
]\fr. Dalby. You will observe that the statement appears to be
a form. It is a requirement, as I understand, in all the permits
tliat the permittees shall furnish to the superintendent on the 1st
of June and the 1st of December an affidavit by himself or by his
manager as to the number of cattle run during the preceding six
months, and this form, I presume, is prepared by the agency in con-
temi)lation of that, and that "manager" is written in in typewriting
as the rest of the form is written in in typewriting, and Mr. Heinrich
has simply signed that and not crossed that out. He is his own
manager. He is not manager for anybody else.
Senator Lane. But he signed as manager when he was the owner?
CBOW INDIAN BESERVATION. 2113
Senator Lane. Of coiirsp flnf wrvni^ »,„* n •
rend it with the idea tlJk^^^^^ZZl^i^'"''' ■■"'"^^' ""^ "'"'
Mr. I' *■'= "''*° "'« o"'"'-''' f">- himself?
Mr. Ualby. i es, sir.
M? Drivel' ^^^^'^^-.J.^^r theory is that this is a l.hink?
Mr. Ualby. I presume it is.
Representative Bukke. It rarely happens tliat the owner of cattle
diaige ""^" """^'''' ''''^' ^^ ^^'' ^"^^""'^^^^ 1^=^^' i-^ personally in
M?. Dalby. I think that probably is the situation.
.Senator Townsen^d. I think there might be good ground f..r Mr
Dalby s suggestion on that, because pai? of this is trnewr te . nd
he different blanks are filled in. I take it that that s aten u cou d
have been made either by the owner or bv the mana-n-r
Mrs. Grey When they Avere questioning :\Ir. Iirinrich about the
number of cattle he had another time he ,5iid he did not 1 now how
many were shipped, that the receipts from Chicago went to the bank
at South Omaha, and he did not know until the end of the vear
If he had been a partner even of a large owner, a duplicate bill
would have been sent to him, would it not? It alwavs is done
Senator Lane. I do not know how that is.
AT^^^'>^^^^^''^; ^ ^"^ "^^ acquainted with the circumstance to which
Mrs. Grey refers, but I hope I can explain that situation.
Mrs. Grey. The trouble is, Mr. Dalby, you can explain so many
things. ■ •'
Mr. Dalby. Mr. Heinrich makes his shipments at certain periods,
usually m August, and from then until October, and the accounts are
kept by his commission merchants in Chicago and Omaha or where-
ever the cattle are sold, and the remittances are made to his bankers.
JSow, the accounts of sales are sent through the baidcs. and I pre-*
sume that there is his most convenient j^lace for getting the.se re-
turns. Unquestionably he has a check upon that.
But Mr. Heinrich has not an elaborate business system. ITe has
not a set of bookkeepers. He has not an office. lie tran.'^act.s his own
business himself, and carries it in his own head, so that i)robabIv he
does not have it in a way that he can state those facts offhand, bu't he
does have it so that he can determine them, and that is the way in
which he would undoubtedly in that situation determine it.
Mrs. Grey. He said he did not know how his cattle were shipped,
and had no returns from his cattle excepting at the end of the year.
It would be exactly Avhat a manager would have.
Representative Burke. I was about to ask you what particular
point you had in mind that you Avished to rebut, if (here is any testi-
mony that affects Mr. Heinrich. With us Mr. Heinrich i.", in n largo
sense, an incident. Consequently I am not concerned especially about
what Mr. Heinrich may say as to some of these details.
Mr. Dalby. From that point of view, I am glad to sav that ^fr.
Heinrich is ready at any time to meet any change in i:)oIicy, sinijdy
asking that he have reasonable notice.
2114 CROW INDIAN RESEBVATION.
Representative Burke. I know that a man that has a million dol-
lars' worth of cattle on the Crow Reservation must do what any other
human being would do — he is looking after his interests there.
Mr. Dalby. The best he knows how.
Senator Lane. How long has he been running cattle on the Crow
Reservation ?
Mr. Dalby. About 15 years.
Representative Burke. He started with a ver}^ small herd.
Mrs. Grey. Seventy-nine head.
Mr. Dalby. I stated those facts pretty fully.
Representative Burke. And, in my judgment, if Mr. Heinrich
lived long enough, and if this system continued that has obtained
there for the last 10 years, he would ultimately own pretty nearly the
whole thing. I am not charging him with any bad intentions in
that; it would just be the natural thing. He owns there now a lot of
land, does he not ?
Mr. Dalby. He does, for which he has paid the highest price that
has been paid.
Representative Burke. Undoubtedly. He is buying it because he
can use it and nobody else can use it.
Mrs. Grey. They can not on that range.
Representative Burke. And if we maintain conditions on that res-
ervation as they are, and if the lands of those allottees are sold as they
die, and if Mr. Heinrich continues there, he will acquire them when
they die. That is natural.
I have stated for years that I am opposed from any standpoint to
these large leases to large cattle owners on Indian reservations, be-
cause it will not serve to promote the interest of the Indians. On the
contrary, it demoralizes them, and it will afford an opportunity for
an individual or a corporation ultimately to acquire a great area of
land that, in my judgment, is not desirable in one ownership. That
is my position. I think Mr. Meritt will say that the present policy
of the Indian Bureau is to discontinue this leasing system; that is,
in many of the reservations where they have had leases you are noti-
fying tiiem that they must vacate at the earliest possible time without
sustaining too much loss?
Mr. ISIeritt. That is our policy at the present time.
Representative Burke. I am not censuring Mr. Heinrich; Mr.
Heinrich is doing probably what I should do if I were in that busi-
ness.
Washington, D. C, June 12, 19tlf.
The Joint CammifiHon of the Congress of the United States to Investigate In-
dian Affairs, Washington, D. C.
Gentlemen : Having received notice thronsih the courtesy of your secretaiy,
I attended the hearings before your honorable body on the evenings of May 27
and June 4, and between those date I examined the record of previous hearings
on tlie same subject held on January 26 and 27, February 3, and March 17 and
18, 1934.
At each of the hearings above reforied to misstatements were made to you
which were clearly calculated and intended to reflect discredit upon the char-
acter of Frank M. Heinrich and bring in question the integrity of his dealings
with the Government and the Indians under the permits granted him to graze
cattle upon the Crow Reservation.
At the hearing on June 4 I pointed out some of the misstatements made at
that hearing and in a measure corrected them. Many of the statements made
to you regarding Mr. Heinrich are evidently based upon hearsay only, unsup-
ported and u'lcorroborated by any competent evidence, and many of them can
be directly shown to be untrue. None of the allegations of wrongdoing on Mr.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION,
2115
Heinrich's part appear to have been proved, an.l I am o.ntiileiit that none of
them can be proved, for his rehitions with the Covernniont and the liuliaus ia
coniicetion with his permits have been honest ai:d ni)rii:ht in ovory particular
Mr. Heinrich has performetl faithfully and well every obli;;a;'ion lui|»o«ed
upon him by his contracts with th^ Government, and in miinv instJintvs. in liln
earnest endeavors to meet the wishes of the Indians and of the t:ovenuuent.
his actions have even gone far beyond the strict requirement of his bare legal
obligation and partalcen of the nature of substantial liber-ilitv.
I am sure you do not wish to do injustice to any. and I sliall be plnd ou
Mr. Heinrich's behalf to place before you the facts in relation to all niatteru
brought to your attention adversely to liini wliich you may <kH'm worthy of
your consideration or of any action by the Government.
Very respectfully,
Z. Lewis Dai.ijy.
Attorney for F. M. JIfinrivh.
Copies to Hon. Joe T. Robinson. United States Senate; Hon. Harry I^iie.
United States Senate: Hon. Charles E. Towusend. United States Senate; Hon.
John H. Stephens. House of Representatives; Hon. Charles I). Carter. House o(
Representatives; Hon diaries II. Buvlce, House of Representatives.
Department of tiii': Interior,
Office of Indian .\ffaih9.
Washingtfjn, August .}, 19H.
Hon. Joe T. Roeinson,
Chairman Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs.
United States Senate.
My Dear Senator: Referring to my testimony before your commission with
reference to the question of the leasing of grazing districts on the Crow Reser-
vation. Mont.. I have the honor to advise you that graziug privileges wore let
in 1909 as follows:
District.
]
2
4
5 an.i I D
ranee.
6
Lessee or permittee.
Spear Bros. Cattle Co .
.do.
C. M. Bail
F. M. Heinrich
Tno. E. Edwards A- Co.
Number and kind of
stock.
15, 000 to 20,000 cattle...
10,000 to 11,000 cattle..
45,000 sheep.
23,000 catilc.
Rate.
$2.17
2.11
./S
i.as
Annual
lentaL
;>S32,5oe
t '43,400
( '21. too
\ «2;4..'IO
33, 750
8,000
Minimum.
» Maximum.
A permit was also sranted Mr. Heinrich for pasturing from 2.000 to r>.
r a period from October IT.. 1909. to Fcbru.iry 1. 1910. at
000
tli«
head of cattle for a per
rate of 37A cents a head: minimum fee, $700; maxuinnn. !?l,s,...
On district No. 3 grazing privileges were let to William Rea. jr., for - years
7 months, from July 1, 1911. for pasturing 50.000 sheep at an annual rental of
$17 000
Graziug privileges were let in 1912 for three years from February 1. 19i:i. n»
follows :
District.
5 and I D
range.
6
Permittee.
Sp^ar Bros Cattle Co.
C. McDaniels
F. M. Heinrich
.do.
Number and kind of
stock.
« Minimum.
35601— PT 15—14 20
12,700 to 17,700 cattle..
R,211 lo9,2'.l cattle....
45,000 shsep
2:t,O0Oc-atllJ
1,500 to 1,800 entile....
« Maximum.
Rate.
Annual
renlaL
«2.67 I
•I32.««
.DO
l.ns
a.?s
4«). 100
41. V4)
' .1. 178
•4.0M
2116
CROW INDIAN KESEEVATION.
Tlie records of the office show the following amounts deposited from grazinc
sources during the last five years:
Fiscal year —
1909 ^52, 441. 26
toil 113, 649. 40
iaT9 l^'S, 090. 00
1Q1Q 157, 250. 00
lyirf j5g^ 3Q_ g^
Total ggrj^ 33g -^Q
Following is a statement showing annuity payments made to the Crow Indians
for the fiscal years 1909 to 1913, inclusive :
Fund.
1909
1910
1911
1912
1913
Total.
Indian moneys, proceeds of labor
(grazing fees)
$17,880.00
21,522.00
$31,914.00
21,282.00
$35,416.00
21.258.00
$17,600.00
54,385.00
$17,380.00
45,764.10
6, r80. 05
2,0a8.8o
11.00
Proceeds ol Crow ceded lands
Crow fund
$120, 190. 00
164,211.10
Interest on Crow fund
2,098.85
11.00
Fulfllling treaties with Crows
Total
39,402.00
53,196.00
56,674.00
71,985.00
71,934.00
293,191.00
..J 1 total lumiber of allotments made to the Crow Indians as shown by the
records of the office is 2.439. covering 479,182.07 acres. There are at the present
time approximately 350 Indians who have not received allotments
From a report dated .May 26, 1914, of James B. Kitch, examiner of inheritance,
It IS shown that there are a total of 1.05S heirship cases on the reservation
TT -i^ ri'^ -^^' -^^-^^' ^^^^'^ ^'^'^'^ the following balances in the Treasury of the
United States to the credit of the Crow Indians :
Proceeds of Crow ceded lands, act of Apr. 27, 1904 (33 Stat L 35'>) •
Purchase of cattle '__ _- $400,000.00
Purchase of ewes 40,000.00
Purchase of stallrons, etc 5 930 qq
Erection of hospital izi::::::::: loiooo.'oo
Delegation expenses 9 r-97 o()
Fencing ;:' I^q 'qq
School _ buildings lOo! 000.' 00
Beneficial objects 27. 202 01
593 45S ''7
For other purposes 309^462.96
Total 902.462.23
luaian moneys, proceeds of labor (Crow Indians) : Proceeds of grazing etc
nothing. *'
Money belonging to individual Indians of the Crow Agency is deposited in
but one bonded bank— the Merchants National Bank of Billings, Mont The
monthly st;'tenient of deposits, signed by the cashier of the bank, shows that
there was deposited to the credit of the individual Indians the sum of
$89,411.72 on April 30, 1914.
The report of the Crow superintendent for the quarter ended March 31, 1914
showK th;!t there were 208 individual accounts, of which 9 were for smns of
less ti.:iii ^10 each, 82 for more than $10 and less than $100 each, 97 for more
than $100 and less than $1,000 each, and 20 for sums in excess of $1000 the
highest being $4,081.31.
Since Jriimary 1, 1909, 7,337.10 acres of Crow lands have been purchased bv
Frank M. Heinrich.
Following is a list showing apin-oximate number of allotted tracts within each
grazing district, and the approximate allotted acreage in each district :
District.
Allotted
Ur.cU.
Acreage.
District.
Allotted
tracts.
Acreage.
1
521
346
586
58,944.70
38,921.54
46,683.35
4
727
1,774
303
80,542.84
199,532.23
34,084.47
2
3
(')
CROW INDIAN KLtiEIlVATION, 2117
The number of tracts iu each district wore counted as iiccuniteiy :.s |.us^ible
from the information in this otfice relating to the boundaries of the «r;izi!iK
districts. The entire number of acres of allotted laud was divided ttv the
number of tracts and the amount of allotted land in each district avtTage.I
This includes allotted lauds sold to whites and laud under fence, as well an
unfenced allotted lands. The number of tracts of allotted laud as\:iven iiboxe
is in excess of the number of allotnients on the Crow Reservation, for the
reason that in many cases the laud of au Indian was not jillottetl In one con-
tiguous body. The land ou the diminished rei-ervation west of the HIk Horn
River, in T. 1 s., R. 33 E., and about four sections in T. 2 S.. U. 33 K.. are not
included within the limits of any grazing district. Practically all this land in
allotted.
The total amount of money expended for irrigation iiun«).ses on the Crow
Reservation to June 30, 1913, is $1,185,151.98. During the tiscal year to April
30, 1914, $86,227.24 was exi.ended. making a total of $1,271,379.22. "Ditches have
been built to deliver water to GS.75G acres of laud, at au average cost of le&s
than $16 for construction.
On June 30, 1913. 11.376.5 acres are reported as being cultivated l.y 32,'i
Indians; 3.517 acres by lessees; and 2.347 acres by white purchasers.
Should any further information be desired for the use of the couimlsslou the
oflace will be pleased to furnish it.
Very truly, yours,
E. B. Meritt, Asiifstunt Commissiomr.
(Thereupon, at 11.20 o'clock p. in., the joint coininission adjournetl
to meet at the call of the chairman.)
WEDNESDAY, JUNE 17, 1914.
Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs,
Washington^ D. G.
The joint commission, being in session, proceeded to the considera-
tion of conditions on the Crow Reservation, Mont.
TESTIMONY OF HON. CATO SELLS, COMMISSIONER OF INDIAN
AFFAIRS.
(The witness was duly sworn by Senator Lane.)
Senator Townsend. Before you proceed, Mr. Commissioner, have
vou investigated this case of Mr. Simpson?
Commissioner Sells. I did not make a personal investigation of it
It was presented to me after a hearing had been had before .Mr.
Dortch. Mv understanding, however, is that the matter to which
they have just referred, concerning the use of narcotics was in no
manner a matter of consideration. This is the first I have ever heard
of that. „ ^ .. cp • \ . »
Senator Townsend. It was a report of Government oflicials to youT
Commissioner Sells. Yes, sir; Mr. Dortch. ,,•*•,
Senator Townsend. I suppose yon would coP.sider tiiat. if it was
not true, such an act on the part of an official would certainly not
entitle him to your favorable consideration. •„,,,..... .t
Commissioner Sells. My understanding. Senator, is tha the nat-
ter concerning the use of narcotics was not at issue '>t all ImNc
never heard that at all until I heard it here at this table t-'mr •
Senator Lane. But in the event such charges had bc-n hle.l .,..mi ^
this woman, she not being an employee of the (.oven.ment. m.I .1..
2118
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
charges were false, that woiikl not be a nice thing for the Govern-
ment employee to do ?
Commissioner Sells. No, indeed ; it would not ; it would be wholly
unfair and improper, but I do not understand that Mr. Dortch had
anything of that sort before him. I think the charges at issue were
those of leaving the agency without permission, insubordination, and
those only.
You are now referring to Nicholson. The part I did not under-
stand fully is that Nicholson is the superintendent of the agency at
Kashena, where all the mills
Representative Burke. Menominee?
Commissioner Sells. At Neopit, one of the big affairs of the In-
dian Service.
Senator Townsend. What can you imagine he had in mind or what
business he had in writing you a letter making these charges against
these people?
Commissioner Sells. I do not know. I am wholly unable to make
any statement concerning it. I know nothing about it ; I never saw
the letter.
Senator Townsend. These letters appear in your files, and have
been brought here before this committee.
Commissioner Sells. The only matter I recall concerning it where
the charges read by Mr. Simpson, concerning his conduct, and I
think, incidentally, Mrs. Simpson was involved in it; but as to the
details I do not recall them, except I do recall that Mr. Simpson
was given a hearing before Mr. Dortch, and the letter was subse-
quently presented to me, and on the general presentation the finding
was had, as he has read to you and told you about.
Senator Lane. Mr. Sells, you are probably aware this commission
is appointed bj'^ Congress to investigate the affairs of the Indian
Bureau, and I wish to say to you on behalf of the commission, so far
as I may speak for it, that they, as members of Congress, at least,
I, as one, feel under obligations to do our full duty by those people
whom we represent. It is a matter concerning the Indians, which
has been intrusted to us to draw up legislation in their behalf and for
the conduct of the affairs of the bureau of which you are the official
head. There are certain complaints being made in regard to the con-
duct of the department, which we have felt it our duty to look
into, and it is in pursuance of that duty without prejudice to any-
body, that we are making the present inquiries.
Commissioner Sells. That is entirely commendable.
Senator Lane. It is very good on our part, and shows that we are
very good people, but it was not said for that purpose. It Avas just
to show you that we had no prejudice in the matter, and that it be-
came our duty in this instance to call upon you for some informa-
tion relating to some charges which had been filed with the com-
mission some time ago. There are many charges; there are many
complaints coming in from all over the United States. Some of
them are rumors and perhaps do not amount to much and some do
not materialize. There are so many of them that the commission is
unable to take ahold of all of them, but there are some that are
specific, and among others there has been the case of the Crow
Agency, of which you have heard, and a question has been raised
about the manner in which the business affairs of that agency have
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. J 1 1 9
been handled for some time past. There has been coniphuiii -aiul
this antedates your connection ^vith the department— on tho part of
the Indians that their affairs are not conducted in their interest
Ot course, the only representative thev have, the man who stands in
relation to them as a guardian, is the Commissioner of Indian Vf-
fairs, and so it interests you.
They charge that their affairs have not been handk'd to tlieir
beneht; that while they have a large amount of hind, some of which
is good land, some not so good, that they secure no beneHts from it;
that it IS used and the returns fi-om it have gone mostly to the benefit
of the white man; that in some instances white men have grown
wealthy from the use of their lands; that during the hist winter, for
instance, they went hungry, though at the same time there was money
in the Treasury to tiie credit of them as a tribe, and that hist year
they did not receive a certain annuity, which if they had reieivJd it
would have kept some of them from going hungry; that owing to
the fact that they did not have enough to eat some of them died—
not many of them, but a few; that in other cases they used flour and
potatoes mixed together into a sort of paste, which they cooked,
and it was all they had to live upon; that in one instance oiie Indian
became so destitute that he begged permission from one of the stt>ck-
men to purchase from him any dead cattle which migiit have died
from starvation or from disease and which lay upon the plain.-.
They also made a complaint to the effect that wliile they had some
things which they could sell in the way of hay, that they were not
allowed to sell it; and the lessee, who had a permit from the (iov-
ernment to use the range and wdio was under contraet lo purchase
that hay, refused to do so; that they had an op])ortunity, in some in-
stances, to rent their lands for a cash rent, and that the department
refused to let them do so; that at the same time some of those allotted
lands which belonged to tliem "were unlawfully included in leased
lands to a large lessee whom they claim treats them with a great deal
of harshness and unfairness.
Now, in looking over these matters, we have not been nble to run
them all down, but the lease question was brought up here a few days
ago, or a short time ago, at one of our hearings, and it was ascer-
tained from the evidence given here that the department did leat^c
these lands to certain large lessees, or rather let them out i:nder the
permit system and included in that had allowed the permittee <)r
lessee to use the allotted lands of the Indians, for whidi the Tndinn
received nothing and from which the Government received no
benefit. Those were the same lands which the Indians were not
allow^ed to use for their own benefit. In one case, it seems, iH-rhnps.
that a third of the land which one large lessee uses is allotted land
and amounts to 80.000 or 100.000 or 200.000 acres, of which (lu'ic is
nowhere rendered any account so far as we arc able to a.scertain, and
which apparently is unlawful and contrary to the provisions of the
law. Do you know anything about that? , , • /
Commissioner Sells. You are giving me a great deal of !nf..niui-
tion, Senator. . * i •
Senator Lane. And. then, I was going to say further, in i great
many instances this information had been filed with you.
Commissioner Sells. You mean at the oirice ?
2120 CBOW INDIAN RESEEVATION.
Senator Lane, Your oiRce and to you in person, had been pre-
sented to you by mail and in written communications, and ihe com-
plaint had been filed with you.
Commissioner Sells. Will you be a little more specific and per-
haps we can get at it better? What lease do you refer to. Senator?
Senator Lane. Any of tlieni or all of them.
Commissioner Sells. Let us be a little more specific. There are
on the Crow Eeservation, as I recall it— you will understand that I
can not speak of the details very thoroughly — leases covering what
we call or rather permits covering Nos. 1 and 2, which are on the east
side of the agency, and have been held for some little time under
same lease by Spear Bros. Then there is what is known as No. 3,
Avhich is west — I do not know the name of the river — but on the west
side of the reservation. That lease expired some little time ago. It
was, I think, held by Eea Bros. West of that is a lease known as
permit held by one McDaniels, which is known as No. 4, 1 think. Then
there is a lease known as No. 5, which has been held recently by one
Heinrich. I think that is, in part, the leases, Senator. Which one
do you refer to ?
Senator Lane. I think the same conditions, perhaps, obtain in all
cases, as far as I know.
Commissioner Sells. I suspect that that can not hardly be true
Senator Lane. Nearly all of them.
Commissioner Sells. Although I could not speak in detail.
Mrs. Grey. I think it is very true.
Commissioner Sells. I think it could hardly be true, as I said, if
you will pardon me
Senator Lane (interposing). Mrs. Grey, you are not on the stand.
Mrs. Grey. I thought he was looking toward me.
Commissioner Sells. Only generally, including you in the general
vision.
Mrs. Grey. I thought you were looking right at me and were
asking me the question.
Commissioner Sells. For the reason, as I recall that; I can not
speak of details — the leases known as 1 and 2 I do not think have a
great many allotments on them. The large part of the allotments
nre on what has been known as the Heinrich lease. I think there are
not many on the lease known as No. 3, and I presume there are none
on what is knovN^ as No. 4. I do not speak with accurate knowledge,
however.
The lease known as Heinrich lease has been in existence for some
time. It does not properly expire, except by revocation, until 1916.
That lease, however, has been diminished very considerably and is in
the process of adjustment, although it has not properly expired
except by revocation. I think that you are perhaps right. I only
speak generally, ,you understand, because I could not recall the de-
tails, it not having been called to my attention before. These general
permits have been made, including individual allotments of Indians,
for which they have not received compensation, other than they have
been paid out of the tribal funds for this rent, and I must say to you
that I think that is wrong. I think, too, that the diminished lease,
as it now is in process of construction, does not include but very few
of those allotments. Senator.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2121
Senator Lake. Do you know whether it inchules a .l<./.i-n i.r how-
many «
Commissioner Sells. A very few, a few ah.n- the hranches. along
the small streams but very few; that is my general information.
Senator Lane. It it includes any that is contrary to the law, which
specihcally provides '
Commisdoner Sells. That lease, however, is of some two veare
duration and does not expire properly, except l.v revocation, 'until
191G.
Senator Lane. AVhen was it made.
Commissioner Sells. Something like tw«. or three vears ago- I
do not know. " '
Senator Lane. Has there been a new lease or permit iinide in
which that has been taken up?
Commissioner Sells. There is one in the process of execution,
covering the very south end, and in that there has been very few
allotments.
Senator Lane. But there are some?
Commissioner Sells. I suspect there are a few.
Senator Lane. That is a new permit, is it not, and takes up the
old lease?
Commissioner Sells. That would be a new permit, but it is a
concession on the part of all concerned, in that it is a part of the
old one.
Senator Lane. Then there has been a new lease or permit given
Heinrich ?
Com-missioner Sells. There has been none approved.
Senator Lane. Is it not here already approved?
Commissioner Sells. No; you will not find one approved.
Senator Lane. Is that right?
Commissioner Sells. There is one in the process of execution.
Senator Lane. I understood Mr. Meritt to say the other night,
according to my recollection, it has been accepted and the transac-
tion w^as closed.
Commissioner Sells. I think not.
Senator Lane. Then, there was one given to some one, a firm of
McGee
Commissioner Sells. McGee & Zimmerman?
Senator Lane. Yes.
Commissioner Sells. That is in the process of execution. Tn that
lease, Innvever , there are very few allotments, as I now recall.
Senator Lane. Are there not a large number of acres of land in-
cluded in either that or the other one? Do you remember which
one it was which contained the allotments?
Mrs. Grey. No. 3.
Commissioner Sells. That would be the McGee lens(>.
Senator Lane. Do you know about how much allotted land thoi-e
is included in that lease? ^ . , o x 'n
Commissioner Sells. I do not know definitely, Senntoi-. I liere is
a small amonnt. There arc some allotments, perhaps. 11. .it lease,
let me sav, if you care to hear it a little more fully expired, 'think,
last February. It was .supposed to contain .scmething like 1(M),(H)0
acres. In fact it contains a little over .^00.000 a<Tes inucli to niv
surprise, ceded land at the north en<l. next to the ^Milwaukee Knil-
2122 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
road, and includes less than 1,000,000 acres — I am not advised ex-
actly— and it has been rented heretofore as including the ceded land,
and was about to be at this time, when it came to my attention that
we had no legal right — I will not assume to adjudicate it at this
iime — to include it and to insist upon pay for the ceded portions.
That No. 3 was advertised at the proper time and bids were made.
Under the old lease on No. 3, I think, the amount the Indians re-
ceived for the use of that was $17,000 annually.
The result of the advertisement was that after the bids were in
I did not think it was enough, although it was considerably more
than $17,000, and I rejected the bid, and we readvertised, and on
reaclvertisement for some reason, for which I have never yet had a
satisfactory explanation, it was considerably less, and I was quite
concerned, and you may imagine felt somewhat indignant about it,
and declined to accept bids, and the result of it was I attempted
to negotiate. Ab time was passing and it was about to be lambing
season, a time when the stock should be put on the lease, if they were
going to have the benefit of the use of the grass for the season, I
was quite concerned although I was trying to conceal my concern
while I was attempting very vigorously to accomplish a new con-
tract that might save us the use of the land durhig this season. 1
did succeed in making a contract that I thought right favorable in
increasing the amount to be received by the Indians for No. 3 some-
thing like $7,000 or $8,000. However, after considerable negotiations
and a great deal of resort to activity in the way of accomplishing
the best price obtainable, I found that the men to whom we bad
made the tentative lease would not be able to comply, and almost
accidently I made it known to some other parties and I saw pros-
pects of securing a new tenant who would take the permit, and I
teetered for several days quite dexterously, I thought, in my aggres-
sive effort not to let go of an opportunity to let the grass be used
during the season, and keeping one man waiting at the door while
another man was telegraphing and his representative was calling
constantl}^ over his telephone, and I was trying to be fair toward
all, and sure I was protecting the Indian, as I was all through, and
I was quite aggressive about it.
I finally saw that I was going to lose the man on hand unless I
closed with him, and I was fearful if I lost him I would not get
the other, and it was getting so late I proposed to close with the last
man, and then even at that late liour, for one year and nine months,
I was successful in making a contract for $45,000 for the lease, with
the understanding that the diminished portion taking out the ceded
part, should not mitigate against the Indian, and so stated in the
lease, which amounted to $24,000 a J^ear, against $17,000 on previous
years. I thought I had accomplished something quite worth while.
The lease has been teetering in the balance since. I got $11,000 pay-
ment on it. and thought I had it cinched so it could not get aAvay,
and I haA'e the $11,000 in our possession, with the prospect of closing
the lease fully and am permitting them to put on their stock, be-
lieving, as I do. that we will finally pull out and save the lease.
That is a brief scattered history of the lease No. 3. as we have been
attempting to secure it.
Senator Lane. That is No. 3 ?
Commissioner Sells. That is No. 3.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2123
Senator Lane That is the lease to McGee & Ziminernmnf
Commissioner Sells. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. And what did they pay?
Commissioner Sells. $45 000 for one year and niiu- nmnths, which
would oe $24,000 a year, or $2,000 a month, as against $17,000 a year
previous. ' ^
Senator Lane. Do you know how many allotments there are in
[iitir ^'
Commissioner Sells. I do not know. Senator, l.ut mv understand-
mg was that there were very few.
Senator Lane. Mr. Keating, did you look that up at the la,st
meeting «
Mr. Keating. Yes, sir; we have it entirely, Senator. I could not
tell you how many allotments. There are a good many of (Jiem
Commissioner Seli^. On No. 3?
Mr. Keating. The whole reservation.
Commissioner Sells. I was speaking of No. 3.
^ Mr. Keating. I just looked them all up. The records are up in
Senator Kenyon's office.
Commissioner Sells. There are some in there.
Mrs. Grey. I think fully two-thirds of No. 3. I compared them
with Mr. Keating and I had the allotments.
Commissioner Sells. Certainly you are very grossly mistaken.
That is beyond the river to the west.
Mrs. Grey. We will show you where it comes. It comes about that
way [indicating on the map].
Mr. Keating. We have the records; I would not like to sav how
many.
Commissioner Sells. There may be considerable in there.
^h\ Keating. There is considerable.
Commissioner Sells. I want to say to you this, in that connection,
Senator, there may be more. My attention has not been called to
that until now. If that be true, it would be the first time it has
been specifically called to my attention. In the making up of the
details of these leases I did not write the leases. 1 can not give my
close detailed attention to all of the details of the lease; but. Senator,
I want to say to you that, generally speaking, it would occur to me
as an entirely righteous suggestion that an Indian who has land
that has been allotted, when leased he should receive some compen-
sation for his allotted rights in addition to his sh:n<' in i'"- nili-d
funds, generally.
Senator Lane. Yes; but, Mr. Sells, here was a case.
Commissioner Sells. And there is no reason why he shoidd not.
Senator Lane. Here is a case Avhere the Indian (lid not receive any
compensation, where he had opportunities to rent the laml to othei-s,
made application to do so, and was refused the right and privilege,
and complains, and it seems, as a matter of fact, that his land has
been illegally and unlawfully withheld from him and other people
alloAved to use it who paid no rental-^ —
Commissioner Sells. That is not right.
Senator Lane. That is not right. If that condition has existe«l. it
is more than ''not right "; it is worse than " not right "; it is (h'ailly
wrong.
Commissioner Sells. Yes.
2124 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Senator Lane, And in the same case the same Indians who own
this land have been in a state of destitution. That complaint has
been made, and it has been filed here and it has been filed in your
ofHce, and we find that despite that fact that a new permit has now
been entered into which again apparently
Commissioner Sells. Which one do you refer to now?
Senator Lane. The McGee permit.
Commissioner Sells. McGee has never had a permit
Senator Lane. Has he not one now?
Commissioner Sells (continuing). Before.
Senator LAiS;E. Since these facts have been filed and brought to
the attention of the Indian Bureau a permit is noAv being made out
allowing McGoe & Zimmerman to go ahead and do the same thing
with the Indians' land.
Commissioner Sells. Senator, if it becomes apparent that allot-
tees on permit No. 3, if their land is being used in the gen-
eral lease, there is no reason why in the payment of the rental that
they shall not share in proportion as they have acreage, and in
addition to their general interest in the tribal funds.
Senator Lane. It is against the law to do that.
Commissioner Sells. While I suspect that there is a question as
to wdiether or not there is a legal point involved there, I think it
would perhaps be best to consider that. It is very helpful to have
these things suggested, and I gladly welcome them. I think that it
would be entirely proper, Senator and gentlemen, that regulations
should be pronnilgated covering that particular thing and going
further than that very much. I see no reason Avhy an Indian on
such a lease holding — I speak now of a large one — should not at his
pleasure inclose it. I insist that he have the right if he asks for it.
It is his right that he should be protected in, and that if he wishes
to lease it to anyone it is his privilege that no one has the right to
deny him, and that if he sees fit to allow it to go into the general
lease or permit, he should receive compensation in addition to the
amount that he might receive from the general fund paid for the
whole lease, compensating him individually for the portion he owns
fts an allottee.
Senator Lane. Here is a letter from your department, dated Jan-
uary 3, 1914, from Little Nest, of Wyola, Mont. :
I Land contracts, 148975-13. Application to least'.]
.Tanuary 3. ]914.
Little Nest, Wyola, Mont.
My Friend: I have received and considered your letter dated December 13.
1913, requesting that you be alloAved to lease your allotment and several other
allotments belonging to members of your family, to Mr. .John Booz, for a
period of three years on certain terms and conditions.
It appears from a report recently received fmm the superinteiidnnt at Crow
Agency that you submitted a similar application to him, which was denied.
The office has also recently received a communication from Mr. Kooz applying
to lease a number of Crow allotments in a body for grazing purposes.
Some time ago the office instructed tlie superintendent at Crow Agency to
prohibit all leasing of allotments in groups for grazing purposes situated
within the tribal pastures. This decision was reached after the matter had
been very carefully considered, the principal objection being that if such
leasing were permitted, outsiders would secure control of groups of allotments
taking in favorable watering places, which would damage the interests of the
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2125
tribal permittees. The dim"-er of r-.tti,. k-^.i-
enclosures „u,„ the tnb;;;''pis«u^s'' 1 ij' ^ 't;e^;rv''^reT'-'l7x[r'',', ""'
or any other respousible anulicMiif «imni,i iX • *^/^V *'''-''t- " -^'•- J^ooz,
question for faru/ing i°ui. ; ef thfoffi. e wnnfr'"' '^ ''''"'' '^" """f"e;.t.s i„
for the reasons above^i en vou Le adv se ,;;^n;^'^H^ '"'^
best interests of the Crow In.l ■is m^ . n •. , ^ ,'' *'''''""* " ^"'' ""^
mitted by you. ''^ *' ^''''*' '^* ''*'">' f'»»^ »l>p!i<-aliun sul.-
Your friend.
K. 1!. .Miiirrr.
(12-A. N. B.-27. H. 17 ■) ' ^■'^■'^ixt'iiit ComniiMxioiHr.
Here is a case, and there are many others, where the In.lian.s were
receiving nothing for the use of their aUotnients, an.] the (Jovern-
ment was receiving nothing, apparently, for the use of them, beinc
used by the large lessee or permittees, or whoever had control of thein
i do not know which lease that is on.
Commissioner Sells. That would be the lease under what is known
as the Heinrich lease.
Senator Lane. Where the Indians were in need of monev and in
distress, and desired to secure the use of their land, and where the
man wished to rent it and to buy their hav at a better price than
they were receiving, and otfered to fence their land, in the manner
provided for by the laws of Montana, they were denied the right
to do so, and at the same time, as I say, they were in an impoverished
condition and receiving nothing for the use of it and the permittee
had the use of it for nothing. That is the condition which has oc-
cured m other instances. It is not singular ; in fact, there were (|uite a
number of them, and it struck me there were somethinir wrouL' al)out
a condition where Indians who were wards, helpless and destitute,
and their affairs should be managed in that way and they be refused
the right to receive any compensation for property belonging to
them, which has been assigned to them, and the land on the other
hand used by some one else for nothing.
Commissioner Sells. I should suspect not " used by some one else
for nothing," but I suspect the individual received no nioiv compeuMi-
tion than participation in the general fund.
Representative Bukke. For the connnissioner's information just at
that point, I desire to inject a report from the superintendent just to
show you that this is the policy and it prevailed when that k'tt^-r wa?
signed by Mr. Meritt.
Commissioner Sells. I was about to come to that: 1 was al>t»nt to
say that.
Representative Burke. I am not going to read it all. Imt the super-
intendent says (insert 4746) :
It is impossible to formulate a system wliic-h will work exact »'(|iiity to each
Individual member of the tribe; and. tlierefore, we must re.sorl ti» th il wlilob
will result in tlie greatest good to tlie gre.itest number. In the ji'd;:iiuMit of
the ofBce the best and most practicable arr.-iugement would be to liave it iimler-
stood that the large grazing permits include the allotted grazing lands whlfh
are unfenced. With this understandiiig tlie lessees would !>e willing to pay ii
higher rental, being assure<^l that the water which is now oi>eii and ;ivail.Mhle
would remain so during the term of their lease. An order from the deicirtnient
prohibiting the leasing of grazing allotments, especially in proniis. wlib-h Is
practically the way in which they can be leased, during the life of tlio trlb.-il
leases, would be accepted and acquiesced in by the whole tribe, and would
settle the question permanently and satisfiictorlly.
Commissioner Sells. By whom is that signed ^
Representative Burke. That is signed by Mr. Scot I.
2126 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Commissioner Sells. The late superintendent?
Representative Burke. Yes. Now, Mr. Abbott, after referring to
this, says:
In view of the foregoing and the conditions reported by you; this letter will
be your authority for prohibiting leasing of individual allotments for grazing
within the territory embraced in the tribal grazing districts during the terms
of the leases and permits now in effect or that may be hereafter approved. It
Is believed that this procedure is best for the interests of the tribe as a
whole and that the Indians will readily acquiesce and conform thereto. You
will please make the order known to all interested parties, and especially
acquaint pro.spective bidders for tribal grazing privileges with its purport, to
the end that the best possible offers my be obtained.
Every effort should be made to encourage the Indians to fence their grazing
allotments for the use of their own stock.
Now, in 1914, Mr. Meritt, in passing squarely upon the application
of Little Nest, who was offered, so he stated, 20 cents an acre for
his 320 acres, which would be $64, denied his application, because the
policy of the department was not to permit grazing leases within this
area covered either by the permit or by the large leases. The land
was leased for 3 or 4 cents an acre, so that Little Nest, if he received
his pro rata share, would not be getting what he could have gotten
for his 320 acres.
Commissioner Sells. I understand that had been the policy for a
number of years, and this letter you read is in harmony with that
long-established policy. It is no reflection upon Mr. Meritt that he
followed that out. However, I am quite inclined to the opinion that
a new policy is the proper thing.
Senator Lane. Now. if these lands have been let, and it seems that
they have been — that is, the lessees have been allowed to use them
and they have not been included in the number of acres contained
in the leases — they have had free use of them, in other words
Commissioner Sells. T think you are wrong about that, Senator.
Senator Lane. I say, if they have
Commissioner Sells. The general leases coA^er it, but the tribe
would be the beneficiary, and the individual allottee would share in
it only as he was a member of the tribe.
Representative Burke. Now, the original leases had a provision
by which the lease was to be void as to the allotted land, indicating
that it was not included, but by common consent it was under-
stood
Commissioner Sells. That would avoid the law question then.
Representative Burke (continuing). It was understood they were
to have the use of it, and when the individual demanded the right to
lease his land and have it fenced, then this prohibition was brought
to his notice.
Commissioner Sells. T see. That has not been brought to my at-
tention before. I presume that is history, is it not?
Representative Burke. Well, here is the Little Nest case
Commissioner Sells. I mean the principle you suggest.
Representative Burke. It goes back to 1911. Here is the applica-
tion in the case of Scratches-his-face, November 26, 1913; that is
under your administration ; and then the Little Nest cases, and Rosa
Peters
Commissioner Sells. You understand, gentlemen, that letters of
that sort do not come to my attention — any matters of detail of that
kind. We try to reach them as fully as we may be able.
CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2127
haps; but not this particular matter *= """" '''"'*'*' ''*'-
Senator Lane. I think so.
Commissioner Sells. If so it mnv n,.. ;...
attention. ' ^ ''""^ ^'''''* '^'"^' ^" '"^ P^'i'^onal
Representative Burke On November 4 the superintendent Mr
went'on'tol/:'' "" '' ^'"^ ^"^^^^^" ^^^'^^ ^ have^ust rcSdto"
whereiu there would be dangS- ol stocl «.. ' '' n" ""•' f'^"'^ PruiK^sItioD
not be approved by this office ^ '"' '^'^ '"'^"''•*' '"""K^ <^«»»d
prfseiTt time." '' '''' '^"''^''''' '^'"^ ^^''' ^'"'^ '^^' P^'''^'^ "'^ ^" ^'^«
Commissioner Sells. I think so.
r!L ^ } ^'I'^'^^rS^^^'i?^'- ^^'^^'^^ ^^'- Scott, superii.tendent
Crow School, by Mr. E. B. Mentt, assistant commissioner, li says :
[Land contracts, 143525-13. II. V. C. Unauthonzod leasing by allottees. 1
,r,. Tir », T,r c December 19, 1913.
Mr. WiNFiELD W. Scott,
Superintendent Crow School.
Sir : The office has received and considered your letter of December 4 last,
with reference to informal grazing leases being made bv some of the allottees
holding land under your jurisdiction without your advice or approval and con-
trary to the order contained in office letter of May 27, 1012 ( -11)050-12), to
which you refer. It is understood that in some cases these informal Teases
or agreements are made by Indians who have control of a group of allotments
belonging to members of their families, and that in such cases the tract em-
braces favorable watering places, being first fenced and thereby excluded from
the area included in the permits covering the several trii)ar pastures. You
refer to several specific cases which have come to your attenlion, saying that
the practice is rapidly spreading over the reservation, and you recommend
that the previous authority of May 27, 1912, be approved.
As stated by you, previous to the date of the authority above referre*! to, the
matter was fully reported to the office, and after careful consideration action was
taken as indicated. It was believed then that such action was for the best Inter-
ests of the tribe in general without regard to any particular allottee, and that it
was only fair to the parties holding permits on tribal lands, which, of course,
include all lands not under fence. At the same time it was tiionglit that the
Indians should be encouraged to fence their grazing allolnients for the use
of their own stock, and you were instructed accordingly.
In view of the conditions now reported j^ou are instructed to Invoke the
authority previously given you regarding this matter, and to prohibit the
leasing by allottees of their allotments in grou|)s for grazing i)urposos. You
will take prompt action in all cases of this character that may come to your
notice, and cause to be removed from the reservation any stock belonglnj; to
outsiders found grazing without proper authority, reporting the facta to the
office.
Respectfully,
E. B. Mebitt. Asaintant C(>tnmiK:<i>>ncr.
(12-H. V. C.-17.)
Commissioner Sells. That is following out tlic old nnlicy.
Senator Lane. Yes. Now, that is the condition wliich has been,
as I say, complained of by the Indians among other tilings. They
claim that it does them a great deal of injustice, and it seems that
that policy is still being followed in these new permits.
2128 CEOW INDIAN EESEEVATION.
Commissioner Sells. You are not entirely right, and yet measur-
ably so, in that. The Heinrich lease — which you include in your
suggestion, I take it, and which is now under consideration — is a
part of an existing lease which does not expire until 1916 and which
has been in operation for something like two or more years.
Senator Lane. His was in the same condition.
Commissioner Sells. That was an existing lease, Senator.
Senator Lane. I know it is.
Rejiresentative Burke. Let me refresh his memory a little further.
Under date of November 20 Senator Lane brought this matter to
your attention, and on December 8 you wrote Senator Lane — that
IS, your name is signed to the letter :
Replying further to your letter of November 20, 1913, relative to John Booz,
I have the jionor to advise yon that a report has been received from the super-
intendent of the Crow Agency, copy of which is inclosed herewith. From the
contents of the superintendent's report it would appear that the complaint
made to you on behalf of Mr. Booz is not based on good grounds.
Now, that was with relation to these people who had complained
that Mr. Booz had offered to rent their land, and he said :
Mr. Booz has nevei*, to my I^nowledge, been in this office, and we have had no
communication from him
Commissioner Sells. That is from Mr. Scott?
Representative Burke. Yes.
Commissioner Sells. I think I recall that.
Representative Burke (continuing reading) :
Stockmen from the outside are constantly attempting to gain a foothold on
the reservation through private arrangement with Indians. The plan adopted
is to lease a small tract, and, with that as a base, poach on the ranges leased to
the large stockmen. Two years ago this same man Peters brought in sheep from
Wyoming, etc.
Now, there can be no doubt that the office has adopted the fixed
policy of refusing to entertain applications from small lessees who
wanted to lease these lands for grazing purposes.
Commissioner Sells. I think that has been the policy for a good
while. It is only recently that my attention has been called to these
matters.
Representative Burke. "\^liat we are trying to ascertain is whether
you have the right under the law to make such leases.
Commissioner Sells. If you direct the question to me as a law
question, I would have to say to you, without serious reflection, that
I have grave doubt about it. I think, however, a set of regulations
can be worked out that will cover all of this, so it will be entirely
equitable to the allottees. I can see where it might work some harm
to the tribe in procuring the best price for the lease if it covers too
many of the big water holes, but I do not see even then where it
should be prejudicial to the man who actually owns the property.
Senator Lane. Now, do j^ou presume there would be any way by
which the.se Indians could receive pay for the land during the time
it has been used and during which they have been deprived of the
use of it?
Commissioner Sells. That is a very much more serious matter.
I do not know but what they might properly recover from the tribal
funds their pro rata share for their acreage as compared vjiih the
whole.
CROW INDIAN KESEKVATION. 2129
Senator Lane. If these Indians have sutfered deprivaiiu.i ai.d U^s
on account of the fact, in part, that they have been deprived of the
revenues which they could have derived from the use of their prop-
erty IS It not clue to them and have they not a just chum n;.Min.>:t tlu-
united btates? "^
Commissioner Sells. I should not care to pass on that at th-s
time, but I should be ghul to give it consuk'ration.
Senator Lane. If this policy is goini? to continue the (Jovcrnment,
throudiits representatives who are the guardians of the Indians, will
be building up a set of claims against this Government wiiich the
Congress will have to appropriate money to pay for.
Commissioner Sells. I suppose they have the nmnev, if it has «rone
into the tribal fund. ' ' "^
Senator Lane. That would not relieve the situation at all
Commissioner Sells. The money would be there to i)ay out again.
Senator Townsend. Here is the difficulty with that". Mr. Sells.
Your lease actually excepted these allotments, although your under-
standing has been that it included them. The terms of your lease
exclude the allotted land, so they are not a part of the lease, and the
man can say, " I did not lease that." You can not go back of your
written contract, but nevertheless it has been understood tliat he was
to have the whole range.
Commissioner Sells. I can see that. However, those ai-e not
leases that have been made during my incumbency. No lease has
been made on the Crow Reservation during my incumbency.
Representative Burke. These permits contemplate the same thing,
except that the terms do not include, as I understand it, this pro-
vision that was in the former leases, which expressly did except the
allotments.
Commissioner Sells. I am not sufficiently advised at this moment
to speak on that.
Senator Lane. Your permits are broader and allow a larger lati-
tude. The permits permit subletting
Commissioner Sells. I do not think there is a subletting clause
in any of them.
Senator Lane. No ; and there always was in the others.
Commissioner Sells. That they should or should not?
Senator Lane. They are permitted to sublease now, aiul formerly
they were always denied that privilege.
Commissioner Sells. By affirmative covenant?
Senator Lane. Yes.
Commissioner Sells. I think not. Senator.
It would follow, as a matter of legal consideration, tliat where
there is no prohibition the right to sublease maintains as a niatti-r of
law.
Senator Lane (addressing Mrs. Grey). Can you find a copy »>f that
last permit to McGee?
Commissioner Sells. I should be glad to have you call my atten-
tion to anything in those permits that might seem like they ought to
be amended
Representative Birke. The query with me is. suppose you should
IHerally try to exclude them; could you make tliesc leases at all »
Commissioner Sells. You mean covering the allotments?
Representative Burke. Yes; would it be practicable^
2130 CROW INDIAN EESEEVATION.
Commissioner Sells. You remember I remarked a moment ago I
had grave doubts about the legality, and it is a very serious question
whether it would be practicable or not. But whether it is practi-
cable or not, if there is a legal inhibition and the right maintains,
and the allottee asserts his right, he could enforce it.
Senator Lane. Here is one dated February 1, 1914, signed by
W. W. Scott, superintendent, to F. W. Heinrich, sole permittee, Crow
Agency, which savs, " The permittee shall have the privilege of sub-
leasing, with the approval of the superintendent," whereas heretofore
it has always been denied.
Commissioner Sells (examining the paper referred to). It is not'
approved by the office. That is the diminished lease that is being
proposed. How is that dated?
Senator Lane. February 1, 1914.
Commissioner Sells. That is the expiration. That is an old lease,
a void lease.
Senator Lane. This saj^s the payments are to begin the 1st day of
Februarj^ and the 1st day of August in advance. Where is the one
you did approve? Is it in this file?
Commissioner Sells. That was one submitted and disapproved,
and there is one pending which has not yet been approved. I think
that is a correct statement of the fact. The clause to which you
refer was stricken out.
Senator Toavnsend. What are they operating under now?
Commissioner Sells. They would be operating under the old lease,
which does not expire until 1916 — until such time as the one being ne-
gotiated now shall have been executed.
Senator Town send. Is it customary to make this two years and a
half?
Commissioner Sells. Two or more ; ordinarily more. Senator.
Representative Burke. Mr. Commissioner, suppose that one of
these individual allottees assented that this blanket lease might in-
clude his allotment and he would be satisfied to take his pro rata
share of the lease money as a member of the tribe. And suppose he
is a full-blood Indian, such as we commonly speak of as noncompe-
tent ; do you think he would be estopped from asserting later his right
to compensation for the use of his land?
Commissioner Sells. That would be a very doubtful question
again. There are a good many complications involved and serious
legal questions.
Representative Burke. I ask that question because there are those
who assert that the Indian must always assent to whatever may be
done with relation to his property. Now, if he does assent is it of any
benefit to him if he has any substantial right that he has been de-
prived of?
Commissioner Sells. I understand the force of your question, but
I would not now undertake to dispose of it.
Representative Burke. I hardly think a guardian would get very
far in accounting to a court for mismanagement of an estate that
had been dissipated by showing that his ward, who might be a 12-
year-old child, had assented to all the acts he may have performed.
Senator Townsend. I think it is a very serious proposition; it
is full of trouble.
Commissioner Sells. And nice complications. Senator.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2131
Senator Townsend. I think that before any Upases aiv n.a.lr tliat
ought to be worked out very carefullv.
Representative Burke. l"want to ask you in that conm'ctioii. what
do you think about the policy of having an area of a few million arrea
of land, as I believe there is in the Crow Reservation, with 'J.:U)0 allot-
ments scattered about through the reservation belonging to individual
Indians, and expecting to get those Indians individiiallv t<. make vitv
much progress so long as there are leases and stock t./tlu- number o'f
60,000 head ranging over the lands of which their alh^tmcnt- aiv a
part ?
Commissioner Sells. Mr. Burke. I presume I could answer that
best by telling you the policy that we are inaugurating, with which
you are familiar, over on the Sioux, the Lower Brule, the Cheyenne
River, and the Standing Rock Reservations. We have there tluMiues-
tion which you suggest, and which, measurably, is in harmnnv with
the questions raised here. I have come to the'<-onclusi(in over there,
having taken great pains to ascertain the will of the Indians, that
the larger lease holdings there have been vastly to the disadvantage
of the individual allottee, and that we will at least try out the idea
of seeing that the Indian has the opi)ortunity of not only working
his own allotment and grazing such portion of it as he may see fit,
but doing it even to the extent of refusing to make leases at all, if
necessary, being first sure that the Indian himself is satisfied with his
opportunity to develop his allotment both by way of agricultiu-e and
of stock.
Representative Burke. I want to call your attention right there to
this Crow situation. It was stated the other night, and admitted,
that Mr. Heinrich has obtained by purchase a large number of tracts
of land that have been sold, known as inherited lauds, and lamls «>f
noncompetents. Now, does it not follow that he buys the land really
without competition, in fact, because no one else would care to buy
160 or 320 acres of land where the conditions are as they exist in that
reservation?
Commissioner Sells. It practically makes competition impo-sihle.
Representative Burke. Yes.
Commissioner Sells. There is a great deal of force in that, and
the condition you suggest there is in a measure significant of the very
satisfactory conditions which exist in Oklahoma where the !e:isi>s are
made of tlie individual allotments prior to a sale. With a long-time
lease existing on the allotment, the man who owns that lease is almost
without a competitor in his purchase. That might be measurably
true in these instances.
Representative Burke. Do vou not think that in the Crow Re.ser-
vation— take the portion that is leased to ^U: Heinrich— if ho stayed
there long enough, and if he lived long enougii, he would ultimately
own most of the land?
Commissioner Sells. In the course of human events, takmi: nito
consideration the trend of human nature, the probabdities are that he
Avould be prosperous under those circumstances. .
Representative Burke. Yes. Now, does not that all g.» t.> tlu> .pies-
tion of whether or not we ought not to .stop that policy of those larpc
leases to these large cattle companies?
35601— PT 15—14 21
2132 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Commissioner Sells. The suggestion appeals to me as having much
merit.
Senator Laxp:. Mr. Sells, there has been a fence placed across the
Crow Reservation to divide it into two tracts. The part on one
side is occupied by one of the permittees, and the remainder of the
tract on the other side of the fence is to be used by the Indians for
the tribal herd. Does that fence cut across the reservation in such
a manner as to throw a number of these allotments on the side which
is occupied by the permittee and thereby cut off the Indian from the
use of the land, practically giving it over to tlie use of the ])er-
mittee ?
Commissioner Sells. One of the first things that came to my at-
tention after assuming the duties of Commissioner of Indian Af-
fairs was the matters and things involved in your suggestion. I
think the first file sent over to me from the Secretary's Office was
one that had been transmitted over there before my incumbency,
and was returned to me for consideration in connection with the
purchase of these cattle which had been authorized.
There is a treaty stipulation with which, I presume, you are all
familiar, providing for the purchase of $240,000 worth of heifers —
tribal property — for the Crows, and such further purchases as may
be within the discretion of the Secretary of the Interior. That pur-
chase had been authorized just before my incumbency, and it had
been delayed until such time — not having taken the oath of office
until the 4th of June, that time appealed to me as being very late to
do a good job and get the cattle on before it would be so late in the
year that the grass would have been practically exhausted and they
would have to feed them through the winter.
So, as a matter of what I considered good business judgment, I
selected three men — one of them as good a cattleman as there is in
the United States, I expect, in sound judgment, personal integrity,
and extent of experience. The three men were designated as rep-
resentatives of the department and the Indian Bureau to proceed
to the Crow^ Reservation and make a personal investigation as to
the grass conditions, the protection, and everything pertaining to
the matter of the time when and how and under what circumstances
the purchase should be made.
They proceeded there, and the result was a recommendation that
the stock should be purchased that fall for spring delivery. That
would be this spring. They made an affirmative recommendation as
to the conditions on the old reservation, including especially the
grass, and also the question as to segregation. This whole old
reservation [indicating on the map] was at that time under lease
to Mr. Frank Heinrich, which lease does not expire until 1916.
Please keep that in mind, that the lease does not properly expire
until 1916 although there is a revocation clause in it. The result was
that when the report was made by this commission they recom-
mended that a fence be built. I can not indicate it exactly because
this is only a small portion of the reservation.
Mrs. Grey. It is drawn on this map [indicating].
Commissioner Sells. I think that is about right.
Mrs. Grey. It was put on from the exact descriptions.
Commissioner Sells. The recommendation of a fence was made
and that it be constructed so that the -stock could be placed on there
I
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2133
this spring. Consequently advertisements Avere made for the pur-
chase of the cattle, there being 7,000 2-vear-ohl heifers, 1,000 '>-vear-
old steers, 1,000 1-year-old steers, and 250, I think, 2-vear-old llere-
tord bulls— and that the fence proceed to construction'
In that connection jNIr. ITeinrich suggested that if it was the desire
of the office he would build a fence. We told him no. we di.l not
want him to do it. We expected that the Indians would occupv that
land, not only the north end but the south end soon, and if a' fence
was built there it should be built by the Indians and be Indian prop-
erty. It was thought to be wise in that it would not only segregate
the present ownerships but in the future it would segregate the
ownership of the Indians and they would have their breeding stoc-k
on one side of the reservation and their fattening stock on the other
and inasmuch as a large oAvnership would ultimately result if
properly handled, and with such accumulations as wculd naturally
come about, and Avhich I expect to bring about if it is possible for
me to do it, the whole of that old reservation will be oceujjied by
the Indians' cattle.
NoAV, the result of that was that this fence was built by the bureau.
It cost more than I expected it would, I am frank to say to you.
However, in that connection, I might somewhat relieve the situation
by stating that, although I was very much out of i)atience when I
realized the amount that the fence cost, four-sixths of the entire cost
of the fence was expended for labor. The very large i)art of it went
to the Indians themselves.
However, the fence was built, and the cattle are now l)eing put on
there. That resulted in pushing Mr. Ileinrich's cattle below the
fence, which would bring them down into this section | indicating].
They were pushed south of the fence, or, rather, were to be pushed
south of the fence, the changed lease covering the southern portion
permitting Mr. Heinrich to put on there 7,500 head of hoi-ses and
cattle at a fixed compensation per annum per head, with the same
charge in excess of the amount which he was to pay for the T.5(){).
The question of making the terms of the permit under the changed
conditions has been in negotiation, and the permit is jjractifally
ready, or where it is ready to be passed upon.
The question, however, that has been troublesome in that connec-
tion has been the desire of the Indian Office to get full possession
of the land north of the fence for the Indian cattle at the earhest
possible date, so that there could be no question not only about the
Indians having the grass during this season, but, as I view it from
experience, more grass than they needed and no trouble al)out having
too much, that they might have winter pasturage.and that they might
have plenty of hay to take them through the winter. And yet it was
bothersome, for the reason that Mr. Heinrich had some cattle north
of the fence, which it was talked of at various times trying to reach
some satisfactory conclusion by which the cattle as they come in
when they are purchased by the Government for the Indians should
start in at the north end of the reservation, and, going to the wvst
side, come down onto the grass, while the cattle belonging to Mr.
Heinrich should be driven toward the southeast, and leave the resiT-
vation of the pasture entirely free for the use of the Indian herd.
That is being rapidly done.
2134 CBOW INDIAN RESERVATION.
There have been several reports made that I might be absolutely
certain to commence the segregation at the earliest moment after the
brands were discernible. Yon know, you can not segregate until you
can separate, and as soon as it was possible to separate, the separa-
tion was to commence. It has been going on, and I expect has been
pretty well accomplished. If not quite, it will be very soon. So that
hereafter all of Mr. Heinrich's cattle that are now above the fence
will be below the fence, and the entire pasture above will be occupied
by the Indian cattle and horses and the new herd being placed there.
Representative Burke. It was stated the other night by Mr. Dalby,
representing Mr. Heinrich, that there are 23,000 head of cattle above
the fence, and that they will be out of there between now and the 1st
or 15th of July.
Commissioner Sells. They will be out earlier than that.
Representative Burke. He can only put 7,500 head below the fence.
Commissioner Sells. Or pay $2 a head for all he has in excess of
that.
Representative Burke. Now, upon what basis is he paying, up to
the time he does get them off, for the 23,000 head ?
Commissioner Sells. That are above there?
Representative Burke. Yes.
Commissioner Sells. Under the old lease. I answer that rather
quickly, but that is as it now impresses me.
Senator La^-e. The old lease runs for two years yet?
Commissioner Sells. Until 1916, it is my recollection, Senator.
I did not know exactly what -you wanted to talk to me about, and I
am speaking only as I recall these things.
Senator Lane. The lease rims for about two years.
Commissioner Sells. Subject to revocation.
Senator Lane. Now, this land on the Heinrich side of the fence —
below or above, whichever it is — contains more or less Indian allot-
ments ?
Commissioner Sells. A few, I think, Senator.
Senator Lane. About what proportion of that do you suppose
is allotted lands?
Commissioner Sells. Well, you might surprise me. I do not know
exactly.
Senator Lane. As a matter of fact, you have built a fence at the
expense of the Indians with the expenditure of their mone}'^ and
fenced them off from the use of their allotments ? Is not that true ?
Commissioner Sells. Oh, no.
Senator Lane. Will they have the use of them over there?
Commissioner Sells. Whatever rights they would have above they
would have below. The fence can not change their rights.
Senator Lane. Will they not be upon one side of the fence with
their herds and denied access to their allotted land, so far as any right
to sublease or rent it to any one else is concerned?
Commissioner Sells. No; I think there is no difference at all. It
does not change their legal status at all.
Senator Lane. But this fence does separate them?
Commissioner Sells. It may, a few, Senator.
Senator Lane. And if this land is leased to Mr. Heinrich and h«
has possession of it
Commissioner Sells. He has for two years.
i
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2135
Senator Lane He will have possession of this for two vears'
Commisisoner Sells. Below the fence .j^"'^.
Senator Lane. Wherever his side of the fence is 'i
Commissioner Sells. That is the presumption
Senator Lane. As a matter of fact, they are being f.ncecl up
fK ^^f 'f'^'ir ^^"li'- ^^'^^ '" "^ conformitv, liowever, it was
thought by the gentlemen that made the examination, with the
wishes of all concerned Oh, I have, perhaps, heard soniebodv sug-
gest that the land might be otherwise arranged. "
Senator Lane. But the Indians object to Tt.
Commissioner Sells. There mav be some who do.
Senator Lane. I think it is pretty general. I am told thev object
to it not only lor that reason but for another reason, and that is that
the side of the fence which they occupy in the sununer is the desert
land
Commissioner Sells. The best pasture in that reservation is north
of the fence, right down there [indicating].
Senator Lane. That is disputed
Commissioner Sells. The commission that went there and other
men of large experience so report to me.
Senator Lane (continuing). By some stochnen.
Comniissioner Sells. I have not heard it. That may be true. I
am not immune to mistakes, yoi\ know.
Senator Lane. I am just telling you what is the record here.
Representative Burke. Mr. Sells," you have probably considered
and can answer offhand, I presume, under what authority you are
proceeding in putting upon that reservation a herd of cattle to be
known as the tribal herd.
Commissioner Sells. The statute which you have before you.
Representative Burke. I have the act of May 27. 1002.
Commissioner Sells. If you will turn to volume 33, jiart 1, Public
Laws, page 357, you will find that portion of the treaty.
Senator Lane. While you are looking that up let nie finish this,
please. Now, in confirmation of the statement of the Indians and
some others that that land is dry land and not the best grazing land,
there is an estimate here — I do not know whether it applies to thi.s
or not — for the building of reservoirs to provide an ade(|uate water
supply for the live stock.
Commissioner Sells. That may be entirely possil)h» in that
country almost anywhere.
Senator Lane. Then, if it is necessary to build reservoirs to hob!
water for the cattle, it would look as if it were not a well-watered
country, would it not?
Commissioner Sells. That might be true, and yet if you will turn
to the report of the commission that made the investigation and
report, you will find that the line is where they reconnnended. We
certainly acted in good faith and to the best of our judgment a.s
we were then enlightened.
Senator Lane. Probably; but here is an estimate f<.r $'20,000 for
that purpose— $20,800.24. If it is going to me dry. you ha<l better
be getting busy.
Commissioner Sells. You are recalling to my mind a condition
with which I am not at this moment familiar.
2136 CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Senator Lane. There is another thintr I want to ask you about.
There was a complaint made by the Indians — and I think it has
been forwarded to yon — that that fence which was built with Indian
money has been arbitrarily placed contrary to their wishes. They
have protested against it a good deal, and the money was appro-
priated by Congress to built a fence for no such purpose but to
surround the reservation for the purpose of excluding cattle of out-
siders.
Commissioner Sells. If you will turn to the page to which I have
referred, you will find the portion of the treaty which is a denial of
the idea you have in mind.
Senator Lane. And it was to provide for a fence across the reser-
vation, was it?
Commissioner Sells. No, sir ; not necessarily ; but for " fencing
the reservation."
Senator Lane. Fencing the reservation?
Commissioner Sells. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Fencing the boundaries of it?
Commissioner Sells. It makes an appropriation of $40,000 for
fencing the reservation.
Senator Lane. And that was to inclose the reservation ?
Commissioner Sells. I beg your pardon; that is a construction.
The other construction is just as tecable as the construction you sug-
gest.
Senator Lane. I wonder if that is entirely true.
Commissioner Sells. I think so.
Senator Lane. Either one?
Commissioner Sells. That might be a matter of difference oi
opinion.
Senator Lane. It would be. But in all similar cases of appropri-
ations that I can get track of the money has been expended with the
understanding that it was to surround the reservation with a fence.
.Commissioner Sells. I do not knov\' just why that question should
be raised. It has been done in good faith. It has been done for the
betterment of the Indians and, we hope, profitably so.
Senator Lane. And the Indians have protested
Commissioner Sells. Oh; some of them may.
Senator Lane. Quite a number.
Commissioner Sells. Well, not numerously. You know it is
pretty hard to have a condition in which there is not some difference
of opinion. But in the general disposition gf this, as other matters,
I think you will bear me out that we are trying to do pretty nearly
the right thing.
Senator Lane. I do not know anything about that r
Commissioner Sells. I did not mean to suggest that I thought you
would be critical at all.
Senator Lane. I am trying to be fair.
Commissioner Sells. I am sure that you do want to be fair, and
I trust you realize that in the administration of these very burden-
some and som^etimes unnecessarily contentious conditions, in which
there are legitimate differences of opinion, that need solving there
may be some legitimate mistakes; but I think the general solution
of this particular problem has all the earmarks of good business ad-
ministration.
4
4
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2137
Senator Lane. The Indians in the past and up until n<.\v havo
been m the most distressed condition— thev were hun<rrv le^- than
90 days ago— and the business administration of the affairs of il.o^e
Indians does not reflect credit upon anybodv. It has been a reflec-
tion upon Congress and everybody else that has been connecteil with
it. The condition has been pitiable.
Commissioner Sells. Nobody's heart aches more than miiu' when
I discover those things.
Senator Lane. That is what I am interested in, and I am going to
continue to take a lively interest in it until it is changed.
Commissioner Sells. That is commendable. Now, let luo .say
something wdiich comes to me and which I think you would bo glad
to hear me state. I have realized since I took tlie oath of oIlii-T' as
Commissioner of Indian Affairs that one of the great problems con-
fronting the Indian Bureau and all who are interested in the solu-
tion of its many troubles is involved in the conditions you mention
on the Crow Reservation; and I believe that if I can measurably solve
the Crow problem I will have made an object lesson to every other
reservation in the 24 States where they exist that will indicate de-
cided progress.
I realize that on the Crow Reservation there have been many,
many indefensible things, and I commend you most highly for calling
them out, and I think you have been patriotic in attempting to .solve
them, and I praise you for it. For years there have been things
there that I would not want to put my stamp of approval on.
I have felt that the first thing to do in handling masterfully the
Crow situation was to put a masterful man in charge of the imme-
diate condition there. I have not been satisfied with the capacity
of the management heretofore. I believe we now have a superin-
tendent there who is the pick of the superintendents of all the reser-
vations of this countiy. He was selected Avith that in view, after
weeks of thought and serious consideration. I believe we have the
man who is masterful, who has had experience in all of the various
ramifications that go to make a successful superintendent of a great
Indian reservation— and this is truly a great one. The conditions
as I have obesrved them there— although I have not been altle to
make a personal visitation, as I hope to do before a great while-
have involved not only the business side which you suggest but in
a magnified form the' human side. They have not got the results
from their irrigation that they should. Tliey have not got the results
from their agriculture that they should: that has been but little bet-
ter. Their stock conditions have been almost if not (luite a failure.
There have been men thereabouts who have profited largely— I am
not prepared to sav at this moment whether honestly or otherwise—
by the conditions of which they have taken advantage.
While these material conditions have been thus unsatisfactory, the
human side has been even more so. The Crow c-onditions (..-day
present to the new superintendent and to the Indian ()fli<-e a pn^blem
almost, if not quite, insurmountable. But, my won for it. with ti.e
new superintendent there, with the new oflicers below him as they
are being appointed— and we have only recently sent one new farmer
there and expect to, send another one there and more new boo.
there-when it is reorganized, as it will be, and w len new "'dn>lnal
conditions are started, as they are about to be started, so that the
2138 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
irrigation conditions will be taken advantage of, I hope that in place
of living in villages the Indians will live on their farms and be in-
duced to build better homes. And I consider that, having secured a
strong superintendent — probably the most important consideration —
the industrial conditions will follow. Because you must first give a
man an inspiration. He must have some hope before he will resort
to the thing that makes him a self-supporting citizen. And with the
combination of conditions developing there now, in which I hope to
have the support of every person who is interested in the Crows — ■
and I believe I will have — we will be able to solve all these things,
and, I believe, solve them so well, so effectively, that we will provide
an object lesson for every other reservation in the United States, and
that, having redeemed Crow, others will be comparatively easy.
Senator Lane. I do not think you are going to do it with your
permit if it follows at all the lines of the sample copy we have here.
Now, I want to call your attention here, if I may, to the matter
that was discussed before the Indian Committee of the Senate, that
the expense of maintenance for all the water supply of the whites is
charged up to the Indians. The Indian funds pay for that, and the
white man does not pay a quarter of a cent for keeping up the ditches
that supply his land. There is a condition that is complained of and
that will have to be changed.
It is absolutely criminal; nothing short of it. Here is the money
of the Indians taken for the use of their grazing land, and they are
deprived — these are hard, cold facts — of the use of their allotted
lands. They are not allowed even to fence some of them, because it
keeps some of these large lessees away from the creeks. And they
get not one penny of their money. It is put out in keeping up irri-
gating ditches for a bunch of white settlers who use up their water
supply.
Senator Townsend. Do I understand that on those leases there are
white settlers?
Senator Lane. Not on the leased land, but on some of the allotted
lands along the irrigation system wdiicli they have in there, for which
a great deal of Crow money has been spent. The Crow money is
spent to keep up those ditches for the use of the white men, and .all
expenses are paid by the Crow Indians. At the same time the Crow
Indians are living on potatoes and flour mixed together, and eating
the dead cattle off the plains.
Commissioner Sells. You are speaking of the exceptions.
Senator Lane. I am speaking of the exact facts which have been
certified to and sworn to before this commission and the Appropria-
tions Committee.
Commissioner Sells. The conditions to which you refer about
irrigation are being investigated. We have a man there now who
will get the facts before us.
Senator Lane. The facts have been known and complained of for
years. You are putting cattle onto that land, and you are going to
have those Indians dependent upon cattle for their living hereafter.
Are you making provisions for putting up hay to keep those cattle
through the winter?
Commissioner i-^KLi.s. The strongest instructions that have been
sent to the new superintendent were that from the time he reached
the reservation he should say to the Indians. "We want you to com-
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2139
mence getting ready to put up hav, and then put up wow luiy, and
then put up more hay, and see that you luive plenty of liay to take
the cattle through the winter.'
Senator Lane. I have not a great deal of conlident-e in vour rattle
scheme, for the reason that the Indians are not cattlenien. With
horses they are all right. When you get into zero weather, in a bliz-
zard, the Indian is not going to go very far to earrv hay to cattle.
Commissioner Sells. I am sorry to hear you say that. 1 hear so
many people say the Indians are not faruiers. You say they are not
cattlemen. If they are not farmers and if they are nnt good stock-
men, it makes the problem harder.
Senator Lane. When you give theui no tools to farru with, they
will not farm very well, and if you run cattle on their ranges without
making provision for hay they are going to lose their stock. But
horses will take care of themselves when cattle will not. And the
Indian is naturally a good horseman. The horses like the Indians.
And ,you Iviiow, too, if you have been in a cattle country, that in a
blizzard you have to haul hay to the cattle and feed them and round
them up and get that hay to them, whereas you can drive a hor>e
Commissioner Sells. One of the most successful cattle iesei-\ ations
in America is within -10 miles of the Crows. A trainload of white-
faced steers that topped the Chicago market last spring canic from
within 40 miles of the Crows.
Senator Lane. From what place?
Commissioner Sells. The Tongue River Reservation.
Senator Lane. What tribe is that?
Commissioner Sells. The Northern Cheyennes.
Senator Lane. That is the one that Mr. Eddy is in charge of ^
Commissioner Sells. Yes. There are cattle there, and horses too.
Now, there is lots of truth in your suggestion that if you try to
have the Indians farm without tools, without ])lows, without horses,
without cattle, and without a house, they can not farm, and I am
determined that shall be remedied, t have said before that to build
a great irrigation plant and make it a lien on the property of the In-
dians, and then give the other fellow a long time in which to make
his payments, and in the meantime give the Indian his allotment
and tell him he must put it under water within a limited period and
give him no money witli which to i)uild a house or buy a i)lo\v or a
cow or a team or wagon, is a travesty.
Senator Lane. That is what v»e said to-day in the Senate, and we
had a row over it.
Mrs. Grey. You do not give him his land on Crow.
Commissioner Sells. We ought to do that first. There can be no
argument with me on those things.
Senator Lane. Complaint came to me a day or two ago— there
was a gentleman here who was a sul)lessee on one of those lea-^ed
tracts who had been sul)leasing, I think, from Mr. Ileinrich. and
his name was Booz. Mr. Booz gave evidence here a while back in
relation to conditions in the reserve. He informs nu« now, or I got
information from him, to the effect that since coming down here lie
has found himself in a rather bad situation on the Cn-w Keservn-
tion. He has had to sell his cattle and get off the reservation at a
loss of about $25,000, for the reason that he has been refusi-d the
right to drive his cattle acro.ss the reservation on a trail from one
'2140 CROW INDIAN EESEKVATION.
range to another; and at the same time these other lessees or per-
mittees are allowed the use of thousands of acres of allotted lands
unlawfully. He considers that he is being discriminated against.
Commissioner Sells. That is a complaint, I understand, of long
standing.
Senator Lane. He is off now, I understand.
Mrs. Grey. The trouble was that Mr. Heinrich took his range away
from him. He went home from here, and they told him to get off.
Commissioner Sells. It is a matter concerning which Mrs. Grey
and Mr. Booz came to the office, and I made an arrangement for you
to make the presentation to Mr. Meritt, I think.
Mrs. Grey. Yes ; and Mr. Linnen. And Mr. Linnen made a memo-
randum for you.
Commissioner Sells. The matter was brought to my attention,
and I said to Mr. Meritt and also to Mr, Linnen that, from the state-
ment you had made to me personally and as I had learned of it, it
seemed to me to have some merit.
Mrs. Grey. Don't you remember the affidavit Mr. Linnen gave
you that day ?
Commissioner Sells. I remember something about it; yes. In
response to that I said to them, " I want this matter promptly, ag-
gressively, and thoroughly investigated." I have been away for a
great part of the time since.
Mrs. Grey. Mr. Booz has been squeezed out by Mr. Heinrich, and
he has been compelled to sell his cattle, and he is the third on the
Crow Eeservation in the last six months who has been squeezed out.
Commissioner Sells. Who is the other?
Mrs. Grey. Mr. McDaniels and Lee Simonson.
Commissioner Sells. Those are old lessees you refer to, I pre-
sume, who have failed and are out of business.
Mrs. Grey. Lee Simonson was the one who made the bid that
would have amounted to $43,200.
Commissioner Sells. For which we got $45,000.
Mrs. Grey. $45,000 for a year and a half.
Commissioner Sells. He made the old lease for two years, and for
one 3^ear and nine months we got $45,000.
Mrs. Grey. The six months' payment was $11,000.
Commissioner Sells. His was not a bid sufficient to be considered.
He failed.
Mrs. Grey. He did not fail until several months afterwards.
When he made the bid he was perfectly solvent. He bid 45 cents a
head for the sheep, and the estimate was 96,000, and the acreage
would have made 80,000 sheep, and it would have made $43,200 a
year, which would be very much more
Commissioner Sells. Mrs. Grey, you are not acquainted with the
facts.
Mrs. Grey. I have the records right before me, Mr. Commissioner.
Commissioner Sells. The prices finally accepted on the lease hold-
ings are far in excess of any that has ever been made on lease No. 3.
Mrs. Grey. Perhaps I am mistaken, as you say, but I have taken
my figures out of the files of the Indian Bureau.
Commissioner Sells. I have the figures made for me by people in
the office who know figures and who know those facts, and in whom
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2141
I have confidence. You may be right, but the ].n.babilitie.s are that
you are wrong.
• wi ^fir\?^'; Commissioner, I have not taken a thing but wlmt
IS m the files that came from the Indian OlKce
Commissioner Sell^ You do not mean to sav that $4.-i,000 is not
the highest bid ever oifered ? .,11.
Mrs. Grey. No; I think Mr. Simonson's bid was materiallv hicrher
Commissioner 8ells. It was materiallv less, as I am*a(h1v;o(l
lou know we are all liable to be mistaken, as you were alx.ut the
hide or the cow
Mrs. Grey. The hide of the cow is there | indicating a hide <.n the
iloor of the committee room].
. Commissioner Sells. You say it is not branded ?
Mrs. Grey. I never said so. 'l say it is l)randed by tlie le.s.see.
Commissioner Sells. Then I misunderstood you. Tiuit is the
impression I got from your statement over the telephone.
Mrs. Grey. It carries two brands, and three men admit
Commissioner Sells. It is not a question of ''admit.''
Mrs. Grey. It is just the subject covered bv Dr. Tracy in his report
July 9, 1913; he said, " I did not go into the^ matter of * * * calf
branding by the permittees * * * and did not believe it was ex-
pected. There are a few lines of doggerel that fit the case—
" There was a young lady of Niger
" Who smiled as she rode ou a tiger.
"They came hack from the ride
" With the lady inside
" And the smile on the face of the tiger."
It is admitted on the reservation
Commissioner Sells. It is not a question of "admit"; it is just a
question of fact. I thought you told me over the telephone to-day
you found it was not as you thought it was.
Mrs. Grey. No, sir.
Commissioner Sells. I very much misunderstood you, then.
Mrs. Grey. We have the hide here if we ever come to it.
Senator Lane. What is the matter with the hide ?
Mrs. GRt:Y, It has Heinrich's brand and the Indian's brand on it
Senator Lane. What of that?
Mrs. Grey. They are there.
Senator Lane. Does it prove the Indian took Ileinrich's cattle?
Mrs. Grey. No; it does not; the reverse.
Senator Lane. Is there anyone here who can tell us about those
brands ?
Mr. Keating. I think Kobert Hamilton can.
Senator Lane. Mr. Hamilton, do you know anything about those
brands ?
(The hide in question was displayed on the iloor of the committee
room for examination.) 1 1 • r
Mr. Robert Hamilton (examining the hide). Ihis braml | nuli-
catinir] is put on with a fixed iron when the animal was a ca f.
That brand [indicating] was put on with the running mm when the
animal was grown up.
Senator Lane. Whose brand is that? , , , ti *
Mr. Hamilton. I do not know anything alx.ut the brand.s. 1 hat
brand is a running brand when the animal is grown np.
2142 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Mr. Keatikg. That is, the rib brand is said to be Heinrich's brand.
The brand on the right hip is supposed to be Pease's.
Mrs. Grey. There is something more pertinent than the skin about
this matter of branding.
Commissioner Sells. You do not want to go into that.
Senator Townsend. Let us finish up this subject of the leases.
Mrs. Grey. I have been talking about that for the last seven years;
that the reason the Indians have no cattle is because the lessees steal
them.
Senator Lane. She is making the charge, and she says, too — she
has made it frequently to me — that the lessees have taken the Indians'
cattle and she offers this hide in evidence as proof of her assertion.
That is what she is driving at now. ,
Commissioner Sells. I presumed it was something like that, but
I know nothing more about this particular matter.
Mrs. Grey. I want to say something else in connection with the
branding of the calves.
Commissioner Sells. Senator, I really do not care to stay here to-
night to go into a matter that will be prolonged.
Senator Lane. We will take that up again.
Senator Townsend. Let us finish the leases. You said somebody
had made a better offer for that portion of the reservation than the
party to whom the lease is made?
Mrs. Grey. I think the interruption came about by Mr. Sells in-
forming me that I was generally wrong. I am not generally wrong;
I am said to be wrong because I am never permitted to show my
side of the case.
Senator Lane. We will take it up later, and the hide is here in evi-
dence.
Mr. Dalby. May I ask that when this hide matter is taken up I
may have an opportunity to examine, on Mr. Heinrich's belialf, the
witnesses who testify, and take it up regularly?
Senator Lane. Oh, yes; all right.
There is something on that lease No. 3 — I understood Mr. Meritt
to say the other night something to the effect that those permits
bad been perfected. Did you or did you not, Mr. Burke?
Representative Burke. No; I do not think Mr. Meritt stated that
any permit had been finally approved. They were all in process
of consideration.
Senator Lane. I understood him to say they had been approved.
Eepresentative Burke. That is my recollection. I am not stating
that positively.
Senator Lane. It was on that understanding I was going to go
into it.
Mrs. Grey. Now, I have a letter here. This letter is written by
Lee Simonsen to the honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs
Commissioner Sells. I might say in that connection — I do not
recall whether it was Simonsen's bid or not, but there was one of
those bids so uncertain that it could not be considered in a way that
would amount to a bid.
Mrs. Grey. That is exactly the point I wish to make. ITe bid 45
cents a head for sheep, and was willing to accept the number esti-
mated by the Indian Office which would be proper. Mr. Simonsen is
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2143
a perfectly responsible man-he was at that time; of course, iw.w he
IS bankrupt, but at that time
Commissioner Sells. Are you testifying, Mrs Grev?
Mrs. Grey. I am. '
Commissioner Sells. Shouldn't you be sworn?
Mrs. Grey. I have been.
(Mrs. Grey was duly sworn as a witness bv Senator r.aiu- )
Mrs. Grey. I wish to say I am willinir totake the conseciuences if
1 perjure myself.
Commissioner Sells. That is not the point, von know, but if it is
going into the record
Mrs. Grey. It does not amount to a thing, because people c(.nu' liere
and make absolutely false statements, and it does not amount to more
than a breath.
This is a letter written October 22, 1913, to the honorable Commis-
sioner of Indian Affairs, found in Crow files 6G990-1912, Crow 312.
Senator Lane. What is the date of it ?
Mrs. Grey. October 22, 1913. I was on the Crow Reservation at
the time this letter was written [reading] :
[Tlie Big Horn Sheep Co. (Inc.). Capital, $75,000.]
Crow Agency, Mont., October 22, 19JS.
Honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
Washinc/ton, D. C.
Sib: In connection with my proposal for grazing privileges on district No. 3,
Crow Reservation. Mont., for two years from February 1, 1!>14, submitteil to
Supt. W. W. Scott and opened at the Crow Agency office October 20. in accord-
ance with advertisement of September 12, 1913, I wish to state that I am willinR
to agree to a minimum number of TiO.OOO hend of sheep to be grazed on district
3, which will make the amount of my bid $22,500 per annum. I am now in-
formed that the present lease on this district carried a provision limiting this
district to the number of sheep stated above.
Your attention is respectfully called to the fact that my check accompanying
the bid was for $2,000 only, for the reason that I did not understand at tlint
time that your office had already determined the number of sheep this range
would carry. However, I will be glad to remit the balance of this de|K)slt at
any time it may be called for by your office. My bid at 45 cents per bead iK?r
annum being the highest proposal submitted, I believe the department will not
consider an oversight as to the amount of deposit sutHcient reason for the re-
jection of my offer.
Respectfully submitted.
Lke Simonsen.
Now, as this map of the reservation [indicating a blue-print map]
will show, it is estimated at 400,000 acres. You sec it docs not go
into the ceded portion at all.
Commissioner Sells. As a matter of fact, there is a little over
300,000 acres.
Mrs. Grey. It has always been carried at 400.000.
Commissioner Sells. For which we may some tunc have to rume
to an accounting. , . , , • i #
Mrs. Grey. I started to estimate this, and I think that instead of
beino- less than 400.000 vou will find it is nearer nOO.OOO.
Commissioner Sells. ^Our latest information is contrary to tlint.
I hope vou are right about it.
Mrs Grey. If vou will take a map that goes like that, with the
sections on it, you will find that there is considerably more. Also
2144 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
if you take the number of acres accounted for in the leases you will
find you are very much short in the total acreage of the reservation.
Commissioner Sells. You may be right, but our information is to
the contrary.
Mrs. Grey. As I have said before, you. have a great deal of mis-
information given to you, but I am sorry to know it.
Commissioner Sells. It is entirely possible I am not alone in that.
Let us go back to the statement you made a while ago concerning
the bid. I think, as I recall your reading it, the bid was $22,500
per annum, and that he excused the fact that he had not made
sufficient deposit.
Mrs. Grey. He offered to make the increase.
Commissioner Sells. In the first place, of course you will under-
stand that deposits must be made at a certain time, or the bids, under
the regulations, are not to be considered. But, even waiving that
Mrs. Grey. He did make a bid.
Commissioner Sells. But, waiving the deposit feature, $22,500 for
a year would be just $1,500 a year less than the bid that has been
accepted.
Mrs. Grey. But the $45,000 is not for one year.
Commissioner Sells. One year and nine months, and this is for
two years. And that bid was rejected, Mrs. Grey, at a time when I
felt the bids were not sufficient, and I was straining every nerve in my
body to increase them.
Mrs. Grey. I think, Mr. Commissioner, when you come to find out
you will find that he bid considerably more.
Commissioner Sells. Regardless of that, it may be answered and
we will save further time in this connection if it should go into the
record that, that being the first bid, I felt it was not what it ought
to be, and I was apprehensive that there was some understanding
between bidders, and I rejected all the bids and readvertised to try
to get more. I did not get it, and had to reject them again and then
proceeded after that and did finally get more than was ever bid.
Mrs. Grey. That we will take up at another time, and we will take
the exact figures
Commissioner Sells. I do not see any occasion to take it up now
or hereafter.
Mrs. Grey. I may probably be mistaken, but my figures are taken
from the actual files here. Now, in the proposal for the bids there is
nothing stated as to the amount of the check that shall be ])ut up
Commissioner Sells. Mrs, Grey — Senator, I do not quite like this
sort of bickering. Mrs. Grey probably means this in good faith
and all right
Mrs. Grey. I think I do.
Commissioner Sells (continuing). And I do not want to criticize
her for it, but I have said repeatedly that the bids of which that
was a part were all rejected.
Mrs. Grey, And I say, improperly rejected. It was utterly wrong,
and you would have thought so yourself if you were an Indian or
Mr. Simons(m. It is a fact that any man that attempts to go against
H. C. Bostwick— man, woman, or child, Indian or white man — has his
life made absolutely miserable for him, and with the protection of the
Indian Bureau behind Mr. Bostwick.
CKOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2145
Commissioner Sells. Mrs. Grey, you are talking of somethincr of
which you know nothing, and whicli I deny, and which I repudilito,
and wlijch 1 do not want you to iej)eat.
Mrs. Grey. And of which you do not want me to submit the proof
Senator Lane. Ladies and gentlemen, let us see if we can not get
along peaceably. You are both sincere, I know, and must have
credit for that.
Commissioner Sells. I do not care to have you reflect upon the
conduct of the office in the administration of its duties, when thev
are so earnestly, so seriously, and so determinedly being perf.inned
in matters about which you are now speaking.
Mrs. Grey. I have taken the statements I^have made right out of
your own records.
Commissioner Sells. I did not come here to bicker with you, and
I am not going to do so.
Senator Lane. Oh, yes
Commissioner Sells. Those first bids were rejected because I felt
they were not sufficient. I had hoped to raise them. T rejectetl them.
I readvertised, and they came back even less, to my great Innuiliation,
and then I proceeded, as I have said in my eailier statements, dicker-
ing and dickering and using every effort of which I was capable, from
my long business experience — and, perhaps, I may say somewhat
successful business experience — in acquiring the bid we have and
trying to work it out, and I hardly think it is tenable here to go into
a question of that sort.
Kepresentative Burke. Whose bid was that of $45,000 ?
Commissioner Sells. The one that is now being negotiated ?
Representative Burke. Yes.
Commissioner Sells. McGee & Zimmerman; $45,000 for nine
months.
Senator Lane. In the meantime has the land been leased or used
by anybody?
Commissioner Sells. They are paying for it. They have made an
$11,000 payment on it.
Senator Lane. And they are using the land before the permit is
issued ?
Commissioner Sells. I am doing everything I can to make it
stick. I prefer not to discuss that, because I am trying to make it
stick.
Senator Lane. Now, there is nothing further that I know of
to-night, and w^e will call another meeting. • r i »
Commissioner Sells. Is there any occasion for anything further?
Mrs. Grey. You realize we were going to take nj) a wliolly .hlfer-
ent matter to-night.
Senator Lane. What was that? , ,, • • ,
Mrs. Grey. You remember we said we would leave toe lleim-ich
leases and go on, because I did not care to say they were all bad
leases. The other leases were just as bad.
Senator Lane. You want to leave No. 3 ?
Mrs. Grey, No. 4. . . • . .
Commissioner Sells. That lease has been in existence tw<, years
now, and it does not expire for two years or more.
Mrs. Grey. Has there not been recently a change m (hat by wlu.-h
Heinrich is running his cattle on that?
2146 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Commissioner Sells. I do not know as to that.
Mrs. Grey. McDaniels failed and went out of business ?
Commissioner Sells. I think he did. 1 do not know what has be-
come of him myself.
Mrs. Grey. I think you will find that Mr. Heinrich has the lease.
Senator Lane. Do you know whether he has or not?
Mr. Dalby. I will state that Mr. McDaniels failed, and his sure-
ties have sold a part of his holdings to Mr. Heinrich.
Mrs. Grey. I think you will find there is not a single lease on the
Crow Reservation at the present time that Mr. H. C. Bostwick is not
back of.
Commissioner Sells. I do not know Mr. Bostwick in any lease.
Mrs. Grey. Zimmerman is there.
Senator Lane. I will say for your information that Mrs. Grey con-
tends that almost the entire Crow lands are under the control of one
set of individuals, and that they are pretty closelj^ associated, and
that the money is paid through and the affairs are handled through
a certain banking house which is in direct connection v ith the large
cattle and packing interests in Chicago and Omaha.
Commissioner Sells. That may be possible.
Senator Lane. And when these little fellows come in. like Mr.
Booz and those other men who failed, and they interfere in their
plans, it is Mrs. Grey's theory they get squeezed out.
Mrs. Grey. And the Indian gets it just the same. I have an awful
case that has come in to-day. This new agent, he is working right
with the rest.
Commissioner Sells. You do not think he is a good mnn^
IMrs. Grey. I do not.
Commissioner Sells. AVho ever was on the Crow Reservation that
you thought was a good man?
Mrs. Grey. I have never seen one yet. There is a i-otten ring
there.
Representative Burke. You will be forixetting youj-seUes if you
are not careful.
Mrs. Grey. Mr. Reynolds went out — he is now on the reservation —
a very rich man. He is handling cattle with Mr. Heinrich. I think
it was my agitation here that put him out of office. I thirdv the com-
mission will admit the hearings here put Mr. Scott out
Commissioner Sells. The hearings have had nothing to do with
Mr. Scott being put out. I have for some time thought that Mr.
Scott was not the man to handle that reservation.
Before I go any further I want to say that all these former leases
about which you may complain — there may be much of merit in
what she says and I am not controverting it.
Mrs. Grey. It is going on to-day.
Commissioner Sells. I know it is not.
Mrs. Grey. I have a matter right here to put to you. It is the
action of this Mr. Estep within the past week. There has never been
anything so mean done on the Crow Reservation as done in the last
week by Mr. Estep. i
Senator Lane. What is it, Mrs. Grey? It must be something
startling.
Mrs. Grey. It is. I think it is one of the worst cases I ever heard
of. It is the matter of that little Frances Doyle — we have the case
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2147
here. It has been a case of persecution for years hack, luM-aiKc her
father would not submit to let Spear Bros, have his faniilv lands for
nothing. He has protested continually not to let them have his lands
Ihey have him m ,]ail now for Uillino: a cow. Your inspcc-K.r .'(.es
out there and says it is an admitted fact that the U'ssees linmd
the Indians' cattle and they can not cret anv relief aL'ainst that. Ix-t
an Indian do it and he goes to the penitentiary.
Moreover, Mrs. Doyle, after her husband was in the penitentiary,
sold her allotment, which was the home of her family, because they
had been driven so they had been borrowing money "at 1'2 per cent
a month from this man Hunter. She sold it for $8,000 and had only
$1,000 left, and she took her family, her children, and her little new-
born baby and went onto her allotment, and the S|)ear Bros, people
put salt around her tent in order to call the cattle theiv. and she ha.s
had to live there and fight them off. She sent for hei- l)roth(M- to (-((iiie
oyer there to try to put up a fence, and she had a little IC-year old
girl — a very beautiful child. She sent her over to the agency, and the
next thing this man Jenkins, who I can show from his accounts — it
will show the reason why that fence cost so much
Senator Lane. Who is Jenkins ?
Mrs. Grey. The man in charj^e of building the fence. Tlis accounts
were crooked. He carried a Mrs. Burbank as a laborer on the fence
rolls and paid her checks as a laborer. If you would look through
them you would find a lot of things of just the same kind.
He made the charge — and he kept the girl in the school and took
the girl away from her mother and won't let her go home, bcfause
he said there were improper relations between the child and her
uncle, and there is no foundation on earth for it except to keep this
man (her uncle) from fencing the land that Spear Bros, have got
Thev have ruined that child's reputation in every way and scattered
it all over the reservation. The same stories have been told about
Indian woman after Indian woman. They told them about me,
because I dared to come here and say what was going on in spite
of you. It is a common practice. That has boon done by Mr.
Estep. I have had several accounts of it. I have the accounts right
here. It is done to protect Spear Bros, in using the allotments of
this family. .
Commissioner Sells. I do not want to go into a mnttor Avitli which
I am wholly unfamiliar
Mrs. Grey. But don't you think that is an awful thing if it is true?
Commissioner Sells. There may be something wrong in that.
Mrs. Grey. If it was your daughter, wouldn't you think it was a
terrible thing?
Commissioner Sells. Why, if it was anythmg that rono<-(od upon
anv woman that I could protect, I would do it. , i r
Mrs. Grey. Here is the child— her fatlior has been lockoil up tor
doinjT infinitely less than that rich man did.
Commissioner Sells. I do not want to give credence to any rellec-
tion upon Mr. Estep, who has spent a life of usefulness. I will got
other information.
Mrs. Grey. Not on his life of usefulness.
Commissioner Sells. You are the first person I have ever heard
make even an insinuation against ihat splendid man.
35G01— PT 15—14 22
2148 CEOW INDIAN KESEKVATION.
Senator Lane. I want to find out what became of Mr. Scott.
Commissioner Sells. Mr. Scott was transferred and demoted to a
comparatively small salary, and is now superintendent at Cheyenne
and Arapahoe, Okla.
Mrs. Grey. If his accounts were crooked, why was he not put out?
Senator Lane. If he made a failure and did such bad work on the
other reservations, Avhy should he be put in charge of other Indians?
The Indians are complaining of just such things.
Commissioner Sells. Senator Lane, I wish I could change jobs
with you for a few^ days. Mr. Scott w^as not the man for that
great undertaking; but I think, generally speaking, he would be
regarded as a man who would make a good superintendent where
he is now. We have to fit men to the places they occupy. There has
been no charge of corruption.
Mrs. Grey. I charge he has altered official records.
Commissioner Sells. Your charges have been put into proper
hands with instructions to investigate them.
Mrs. Grey. They never did investigate them.
Commissioner Sells. You do not charge Mr. Linnen, when I tell
him to do a thing, with not doing it?
Mrs. Grey. Well, I don't know.
Commissioner Sells. Please acknowledge that somebody has some-
thing good in them.
Representative Burke. You are forgetting yourselves again.
Mrs. Grey. I don't think I have found anybody in connection with
the Crow Reservation investigations, which have been going on for
eight years, that has any good in them.
Commissioner Sells. There is one thing I am being constantly
convinced of. You know. Senator, when you adopt a child you find
that the whole neighborhood is quite given to suggesting how you
shall manage the child. They concede to you the management of
your own children very readily. The Commissioner of Indian
Affairs is a good deal in the position of the man with the adopted
child. He has a great deal to contend with.
Senator Lane. He has hold of a pretty live question.
(Thereupon, at 10.45 o'clock p. m., the joint commission ad-
journed.)
TUESDAY, JULY 14, 1914.
Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs,
Washington^ D. G.
The joint commission being in session proceeded to the considera-
tion of conditions on the Crow Reservation, Mont.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. HELEN PIERCE GREY— Resumed.
Mrs. Grey. At the last hearing there was some controversy about
the permits and the conditions on what is known as district No. 3
and district No. 5. I shall not make any comments on the last hear-
ing, but what I have to say I shall read from the records of the In-
.CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2149
dian Office. I shall begin by reading the first letter of William
Rea, jr., who was the last permittee on district No. 3 :
Billings, Mont., January <), 1913.
F. H. Abbott, Esq.,
Acting Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C.
Dear Sib : I am the lessee of district No. 3 on the Crow ludian Reservatiou,
in Montana. My term expires in one year from February 1, 1913. Last June
the lessees on the balance of the reservation had their terms extended for three
years beginning February 1, 1913.
I aslv you to liindly extend my lease so that it will expire with the others. If
you will do this for me, it will help me out in my plans. If you can not extend
the time, we will have to plan on cleaning up all our sheep by next fall.
I will make a trip to Washington and talk the matter over fully with you
If you think best.
Thanking you, I am.
Yours, very truly,
Wm. Rea, Jr.
The Indian Office refused to extend this permit Avithoitt advertis-
ing for other bids. The agent — Scott — in a letter dated January 28,
1913, wrote to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, in which letter
he thus describes this district :
Department of the Interior,
United States Indian Service,
Crow Agency, Mont., January 28, 191S.
The Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. C.
Sir: Receipt is acknowledged of copy of office letter to William Rea, jr., of
Billings. Mont., with reference to his request that his permit on range No. 3,
this reservation, be extended two years from date as at present, Fel)ruary 1,
1914. You direct report and recommendation.
District No. 3 contains approximately 400,000 acres, for which Mr. Rea is
paying $17,000, or 4i cents per acre, annually.
The Indian Office, on the 13th of September, prepared the follow-
ing proposals for leasing this district. I shall not read the entire
proposal, but they were to be opened at Crow Indian Reservation
School, Mont., by 2 o'clock p. m. on Monday, October 20, 1913. The
district is described in this way :
The estimated acreage of district No. 3, as shown by map on file in the
Indian Office at Washington, D. C, and duplicate thereof on file at Crow Agency,
is 400,000 acres. All necessary information may be obtained on application to
the superintendent of the Crow Indian School, Mont. The successful bidders
will be required to pay six months' rental in advance and to furnish acceptable
bond to guarantee payment of the remainder in subsequent semiannual install-
ments in a sum equal to one year's rental.
Another condition of the proposals:
Each proposal must be accompanied by a certified check or draft upon some
United States depository or solvent national bank, payable to the superintend-
ent of the Crow Indian School —
I wish you to notice that this is not to the commissioner, but to
the superintendent of the Crow Indian School; and the superin-
tendent therefore actually makes the lease so far as the executive
part goes. Of course, it must be approved by the commissioner
fii'st [continuing reading] —
for at least 10 per cent of the amount of the rental for one year. Tlie check
or draft of a successful bidder will be forfeited to the United States for the use
and benefit of the Indians on the Crow Reservation in case such bidder sliall
fail to enter into the prescribed permit within 30 days after the award. Tlie
amounts deposited by unsuccessful bidders will be returned.
2150 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
On this proposal there were three bids received. The first is by
Lee Simonsen:
LThe Big Horn Sheep Co. (Inc.). Capital, $75,000.]
Crow Agency, Mont., October 20, 191S.
Maj. W. W. Scott,
Superintendent, Crow Agency, Mont.
Dear Sir : lu accordauce with your advertisement for bids for grazing privi-
leges on district No. 3, Crow Reservation, I berewitli respectfully submit the
following :
I hereby agree to pay 45 cents per head for sheep and $2.55 per head for
cattle for such number of said stock as can be grazed on said district No. 3 for
a term of two years from February 1, 1914.
Inclosed herewith please find check for $2,000 as a guaranty of good faith.
The amount of this bid is to be. determined by the average number of stock
grazed on this lease per annum.
Yours, respectfully, Lee Simonsen.
Now, this bid is much higher than any of the bids that were in
existence on Crow Reservation or any that are now in existence
there. The highest previous bid, I believe, for cattle was $2.25.
This bid is $2.55. He makes this bid per head, and is willing to
run as many sheep as the Indian Office estimates the range will
carry. Now, there are 400,000 acres involved in the proposal — it is
estimated at 400,000 acres. Twenty acres is required to a cow, ac-
cording to the Indian Bureau estimate, and 5 sheep to 1 cow, which
would make 4 acres to a sheep. Consequently this district would
run 100,000 sheep, according to the Indian Bureau estimate; so that
would make $45,000 a year just for the sheep, which is very much
higher than the other.
Senator Lane. Has range No. 3 been let yet to anyone ?
Mrs. Grey. Yes ; it has been let. There is somebody on it, and pay-
ment has been made, though Commissioner Sells says it has not been
let.
Senator Lane. I understand they may have recalled that.
Mrs. Grey. They can not, because the sheep are on that range.
Senator Lane. They can make a new lease, or alter the terms of it,
and I think that is about what has been done.
Mrs. Grey. Well, there is nothing here to shoAv it.
Senator Lane. Perhaps not here ; it may have come in in the last
few days. If that is true, this would be no proof of present condi-
tions, don't you see, Mrs. Grey? They may have learned that they
would receive a better bid or something of that sort.
Mrs. Grey. Well, the Indian Office was asked
Senator Lane. Was that No. 3 ?
Mrs. Gret. Yes, sir; No. 3. They said it had not been let.
Senator Lane. Who said that?
Mrs. Grey. Commissioner Sells. Mr. Meritt said it had been let.
The commission — you yourself — wrote to Commissioner Sells and
asked him for the record showing everything in connection with this
bid. After the last hearing, which was two weeks ago. Commis-
sioner Sells asked for his file that I am now using, and it was sent
to the Indian Office with all my notes in it, and if there were any-
thing new or any later papers connected with it it would have been
proper for them to put it into this file and call it to the attention
of this commission that there Avas some change. As long as he has
not done so, I shou.ld infer that there was no change.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2151
Senator Lane. Commissioner Sells telephoned me to-night that
there was something about these permits that he wished to take up
with me at the first opportunity. I do not know which one it is,
but there must have been some other negotiations.
Mrs. Grey. Why doesn't he just come before the commission?
Senator Lane. He said he had a prior engagement. I do not
know whether it was this lease, or not.
Mrs. Grey. There are two. I should like to put into the record
what I find about both of them.
Senator Lane. Very well.
Mrs. Grey. I am only taking up No. 3 to-night. The second bid
was made bv a Mr. Massev, and is written on the paper of the Bank
of Commerce, of Sheridan, Wyo., dated October 18, 1913. This
Mr. Massey is the nephew of H. C. Bostwick and is his representa-
tive in Sheridan. ^Ir. Bostwick, at the time this nephew was mar-
ried, built him a verv fine house in Sheridan, and he represents him
in tiiis bank. He is recognized out there as the representative of
Mr. Bostwick. His bid is :
Sheridan, Wyo.. October i.S. 7.9/3.
Superintendent Crow Indian School,
Crow Agency, Mont.
Deab Sir : I herebv bid the sum of $21,.500 per annum for the privilege of
grazing cattle or sheep on range No. 3, Crow Indian Reservation. :Mont.
Inclosed find draft No. 50750 on Stock Yards National Bank. South pmaha
Nebr for 10 per cent of the above-mentioned amount, being the sum ot .>^-.l.w
to meet requirements of oflicial proposal herewith attached, the terms of which
I hereby agree to.
Very truly, yours, ^ ^ ^L.ssy.r.
The other bidder on the reservation is William Rea, jr. I want
to call vour attention to the fact, Senator Lane, that m all ot the
other bids the figures are incorporated in the bid m typewriting the
same as the rest of the letter. In the Rea Bros.' bid they ai;e not so
incorporated. The figures are given separately m pen and ink, and
the rest is tvpewritten. I want to call your attention to this tact,
because when Rea Bros, bid the vear before it was believed they were
not the highest bidders, and they were permitted to raise their bid,
which charge is f requentlv made against bidders m the Indian Ullice .
and this form of bid would show that this might have been done, m
that the figures are all written in. .,.,,. ^^ „^^
Senator Lane. Oh, I do not know, Mrs. Grey, that that Proves any-
thing. Thev might have made it out in typewriting, and 'eft the
blank to be" filled in, leaving the sum blank until the minute they
sealed the bids. I would do that myself. , ^..i f^
Mrs. Grey. The bids are sealed, and they are not supposed to
^"^Srnlo^' Lane. But just before they sealed it. they might have put
^^Mrs^GREv!" It mav be ; but at the time of the previous bid McComb
Bros., who bid against them, were very vehement in saying that they
altered their bids at the last minute.
Senator Lane. Before they sealed them ^
Mrs Grey. No. That thev knew what his bid was, and they said
the Indian Office let them fill their bid in so it would be just enough
higher.
2152 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Senator Lane. A pretty harsh charge.
Mrs. Grey. Well, you can see there must have been a pretty con-
siderable juggling with these permits.
Senator Lane. Go ahead.
Mrs. Grey. His bid is as follows:
Billings, Mont., Octoher 20, 191S.
Hon. W. W. Scott,
Superintendent Crotv Indian Scfiool, Croio Ageney, Mont.
Sib: I hereby propose to lease range No. 3 of tlie Crow Indian Reservation,
Mont., for the purpose of grazing cattle or sheep under the permit system for
the period of two years, beginning February 1, 1914, and agree to pay therefor
n rental at the rate of $20,000 per annum, according to the terms of the adver-
tisement by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs.
Although the said advertisement does not put any limitation upon the number
of sheep or cattle to be grazed on the said range, I hereby offer as a part of
this bid to enter into a stipulation in the lease not only generally that I will
not at any time overstock the said range, but also specially that I will not
graze more than an average of 50,000 head of sheep or of cattle in the proportion
of 1 mature steer or cow to 5 head of sheep during any one year.
In the event that any proposals be made you for said range at a higher rate
than mine, submitted by parties not personally thoroughly familiar with said
range, and who are under the mistaken impression that it will support a greater
number of head of stock than is deemed best for the good of said range, I
submit that if any proposals which may be made at a liigher rate than mine
be unaccompanied by a corresponding offer to stipulate as to the number of
head of stock to be grazed, then my bid should be deemed the best bid, even if
it should not be the highest bid, and it should be accepted. I respectfully
request that I be permitted the opportunity to meet such higher bid for the
reason that it is to my interest to meet such bid rather than suffer the disad-
vantage of having to remove my stock and equii)inent from said range within
the short space of time now remaining of the present lease, necessarily causing
me great expense and loss; and also for the further reason that I am in
possession of three sections of land immediately adjacent to said range No. 3
and contiguous to the right of way of the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy Rail-
way, on which are located stock yards, loading pens, and sheep-shearing plant,
and in the event my bid was not accepted I should have no further use for this
property and wou^d be compelled to dispose of it at a great sacrifice.
Herewith I inclose certified check on the Yellowstone National Bank of
Billings, Mont., for $2,000, payable to your order, which is for at least 10 per
cent of the amount of the rental for one year.
Respectfully,
Wm. Rea, Jr.
You note he expects to be permitted to meet the highest bid.
Senator La:ne. Well, that would be a provisional bid, you know.
Mrs. Grey. Well, the agent sent a resume of the bids to the Indian
Office in a letter dated October 21, 1913 :
Department of the Interior,
United States Indian Service,
Croio Aiiency, Mont., Oeiober 21, 191S.
The Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. C.
Sir: I have the honor to report that, in accordance with instructions issued
from your office, proposals for grazing privilege on grazing district No. 3,
this jeservation, were opened in this oflice on the 20th instant, which proposals
are transmitted herewith, together with abstract of same.
William Rea, jr., the present permittee, submits an offer to pay $20,000 per
annum, and to agree that he will not run more than an average of 50,000 sheep,
and will not at any time overstock the range to its detriment. Mr. Rea con-
tends that, other things being equal, he should be accorded the preference. I
feel that there is some force in his contention.
Mr. C. R. Massey, vice president of the Bank of Commerce, Sheridan, Wyo.,
submits a flat proposal of $21,500 per annum.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2153
Mr. Lee Simonsen, of the Big Horn Sheep Co., offers 45 cents per head for
Bheep and $2.55 for cattle, the total payent to be determined by the yearly
average number of stock run. No minimum or maximum is mentioned, tile pro-
posal reading " Such number as can be grazed." Mr. Simonsen's accomp.mving
check for $2,000 implies a proposed payment of $20,000 per annum. The i-ange
will carry 50,000 head of sheep. (Mr. Simonsen's check was not certified, as
required, but is unquestionably good, and has been transmitted to the bank for
deposit.)
All bidders are reliable and responsible men, and will unquestionably jirove
entirely satisfactory permittees.
It is respectfully suggested that the contract to be entered into with the suc-
cessful bidder provide an average minimum number of stock to be grazed, equal
to the capacity of the range, liberally estimated at 50,000 sheep, or their
equivalent in cattle, and that payment should be made on a head b:isis. It
should also stipulate that at no time shall the number placed on the range at
one time exceed a certain percentage above the rated capacity. This to guard
against damage to the range by overstocking. Subletting should be only upon
written consent of this office, approved by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs.
Sworn statements as to number of stock run to be furnished semiannually and
report furnished this office of all shipments, either in or out.
It is respectfully requested that the matter be given prompt attention.
Very respectfully,
W. W. Scott, Superintendent.
Now, when this range was let the time before they wired Agent
Scott asking him what the capacity of the range was. His reply was
96,000 head of sheep.
May 30, 1911.
Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. C:
Your telegram yesterday. District No. 3 will carry maximum 90,000 sheep,
figured on accepted ratio of 5 sheep to 1 cow.
Scott, Superintendent.
You see, when they let the range, instead of letting it for 90,000
sheep they let it for 50,000 sheep. You can see that that would allow
them to run nearly 50,000 sheep for nothing.
Senator Lane. Do you mean to say that they let it on the basis
that 50,000 head is all it will carry, but that, as a matter of fact, it
will carry more than that, and that the lessee does carry more than
50,000?
Mrs. Grey. Oh, yes; it is well known that Rea. Bros, have had
on that range 150,000 sheep.
Senator Lane. And paying for only 50,000?
Mrs. Grey. Paying for 50,000. I will come to that again as I go
along.
Senator Lane. Is that deliberately done, do you think?
Mrs. Grey. Oh, yes. I think there is an arrangement made for it
in the permit that was made before. If you like I will show you
how it is.
Senator Lane. If that was done it would be to the disadvantage
of the Indians, because the revenues go to the Indians?
Mrs. Grey. Yes; just about one-half.
Senator Lane. And the Indian would be deprived of one-half of
the revenue?
Mrs. Grey. $50,000 a year.
Senator Lane. That is a very grave charge. AVhat have you to
substantiate it?
Mrs. Grey. I have it in this [indicating the telegram last readj.
Senator Lane. You have the statement of the agent himself?
2154 CKOW INDIAN EESERVATION.
Mrs. Grey. Of the agent himself, lie says tliat a generous esti-
mate is 90,000 head. He says there are 400,000 acres. The proposal
is 400,000 acres in the advertisement.
Senator Lane. And they figure on 4 acres to a sheep ?
Mrs. Grey. It is different. 1 think here he gives it as 5 acres, and
tliere are others where they give it as 4.
Senator Lane. Then it would be a difference in the actual revenue
they get there on that reservation, according to your figures from
these statements in the record, of somewhere between 30,000 and
50,000 sheep that the lessee would be feeding free of cost ?
Mrs. Grey. Yes, sir. Then besides that, Senator Lane, there is a
very great deal of hay raised in this district. There is a great deal
of irrigated land in the district, and they raise very large amounts
of hay there. In that way, you see, they could run a great many
sheep to one acre, feeding them hay.
Senator Lane. Do the Indians complain about that ^
Mrs. Grey. Very much.
Senator Lane. You have heard the Indians complain?
Mrs. Grey. Very, very much. That was one of the first com-
plaints that was ever made to me on the Crow Reservation, that
they were vastly overstocking the range. The range that Charley
Bair had was one special case* That was No. 4, which -I will take
up later.
Senator Lane. Have you ever called the attention of anybody to
this?
Mrs. Grey. Oh, that was what the old hearing in 1908 was about,
and it was on account of those charges which I made and proved
that every lessee on the reservation raised his prices very materially.
Charley Bair was on No. 4. He was paying $7,000, and he volun-
tarily raised it to $33,000.
Senator Lane. It is not likely, however, is it, that the present
officials would know about it?
Mrs. Grey. I talked over all these things with Commissioner Sells
before I went to Crow Eeservation. I did not want to go to him
after I had heard of certain things there, and Senator Stone ar-
ranged for me to go to him, and told Commissioner Sells I could
tell him more about Crovv- Eeservation than anybody else, and he
made the appointment for me to go. I spent a good many hours
with Commissioner Sells going over this very thing, so he has had
plenty of it.
The telegram says, " 9G,000 sheep, figured on the accepted ratio of
five sheep to one cow." That makes four acres, and that would make
100,000 on the 400,000 acres, as advertised in the bid.
Senator Lane. The range advertised was 400,000 acres, and the
superintendent said that 4 acres would carry a sheep, and they
estimated in this contract or permit, or whatever it was, 50,000?
Mrs. Grey. Fifty thousand ; not a flat 50,000 even, but an average
of 50,000. You know, there are many months of the year when they
do not have any sheep on the reservation. Here would be the way
they could do. They could run any number they wanted for four
or five months, and they could eat as much hay and grass in that
way, and they are paying at so much a head, don't you see? There
is only one crop of grass a year.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2155
Senator Lane. If they ran 100,000 for six months
Mrs. Grey. It is just the same as running 100,000 for a vear
Senator Lane No; if they ran none for the bahmce of the year.
Mrs. Grey. Ihere is only one crop of grass. If they can eat it all
m one month it does not make any difference.
Senator Lake. They do not range therein the Avinter, then?
Mrs. Grey. Yes ; they do, but they can not range in the winter un-
less they have left feed. That is just one time they do range on
Crow. They are feeders ; they are not breeders.
If you estimate, Senator Lane, 100,000 head of sheep at 45 cents a
head, you can see what was lost right there, because Mr. Simonsen
offered 45 cents a head for as many head as the range would run.
Senator Lane. I see; and you claim it will carry 100,000?
Mrs. Grey. No ; it will not carry 100,000 ; I will take that up after-
wards. But this is according to their bids.
Now, after the bids were opened evidently Mr. Simonsen realized
that it was^ajarger range than he had thought and that his check
and deposit was not sufficient, so he writes a letter to the Commis-
sioner of Indian Affairs, which I will read next :
[The Big Horn Sheep Co. (Inc.). Capital, $75,000.]
Crow Agency, Mont., October 22, 19J3.
HOU. COMAIISSIONKR OF INDIAN AFFAIRS,
Washington, D. C.
Sir: In connection with my proposal for grazing privileges on district No. 3,
Crow Reservation, Mont., for two j-ears from Febrnary 1, 1914, suljmitted to
Supt. W. W. Scott, and opened at tlie Crow Agency otfice October 20, in accord-
ance with advertisement of Seiitember 12, 1913. I wish to state that I am willing
to agree to a minimum number of 50,000 head of sheep to be grazed on district 3,
which will make the aqiount of ray bid $22,500 per annum.
You see, he knew he was paying on 400,000 acres. Le^ Simonsen
is an illegal sublessee on Crow Reservation, on the Spear Bros, lease.
You know it was admitted that he was there. So he knew what he
was doing [continuing reading] :
I am now informed that the present lease on this district carries a provision
limiting this district to the number of sheep stated above.
Your attention is respectfully called to the fact that my check accompanying
bid was for $2,000 only, for tlie reason that I did not understand at that time
that your office had already determined the number of sheep this range would
carry. However, I will be 'irlad to remit the balance of this deposit at any time
it may be called for by your ofllce. My bid at 45 cents per head per annum being
the highest proposal submitted, I believed the department will not cmisider an
oversight as to the amount of deposit sufficient reason for llio rejection of my
offer.
Respectfully submitted,
Lee Si-monsen.
The supervisor, Charles L. Davis, of the Washington office, mada
a memorandum for the commissioner on these bids, which I wdl
read :
[Mcraoi-anflum.]
October 29, 1913.
According to abstract of bids received by Supt. S<-ott on district 3. Crow Reser-
vation, William Rea, the present lessee, bid $20,000, on a b:isis of .-,0,000 sheep
or 10 000 cattle. C. R. Massev bid $21,500, without specifying the class of live-
stock or the number to be grazed. Lee Simonson bid 45 cents per head for sheep
or $2.55 per head on cattle, without specifying numbers.
2156 CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION.
By letter of October 27, Mr. Rea, believing that Massey's bid was the highest,
makes a supplemental offer of $22,000, uuder a clause in the original bid, where-
in, being the present lessee, he offers to meet the highest bid.
By letter of October 22, Mr. Simonson makes more definite his original bid by
agreeing to pay on a minimum of 50.000 head or $22,500 per annum for the lease.
He says that his check deposited with the bid was for $2,000 only, which would
be less than the required amount on a bid of $22,500. In my judgment, this is
immaterial, and should not work a forfeiture of his offer.
As the offers now stand Mi-. Simonson would seem to be the highest bidder,
but Mr. Rea's letters indicate that he would meet that bid .lust as readily as he
raised Massey's bid if he knew that Simonson had so modified his former bid as
to make the amount exceed Massey's.
The question may arise whether it is right and proper that these later offers
should be entertained, but I am of the opinion that they should be, as each of
them is really forecasted in the original bids. In his bid Mr. Rea speaks of
owning lands nearby on which he has shearing pens, etc. Whether this means
that these shearing pens are so located that the excess grazing ai'ound them
would be confined to his own lands, is not clear from the coi'respoudence. If
such should be the case, it would be in his favor, inasmuch as the excessive
grazing around the shearing and dipping pens is quite injurious to the land.
Mr. Rea would also have a moral claim to preference by reason of being the
present lessee, in good standing, though there is nothing in the record that
would give him more than a moral right to such claim.
In my judgment, this pasture is worth more than any of the bids offered.
I am also of the opinion that the specifications should be a little more definite
in some matters, particularly as to when the lambs should count as old sheep,
both for permit purposes and as against the maximum allowed on the range.
It is probable that Rea and Simonson will each insist on the acceptance of
his bid, in which ease it will probably be advisable to reject all bids and give
all parties an opportunity to make new offers.
As the records now stand, Mr. Simonson would seem to have the best bid,
taking all things into consideration, but there is no doubt but what Mr. Rea
will raise it if he gets an opportunity.
Chas. L. Davis, Supervisor.
On November 7, 1913, Commissioner Sells, in* writing to the Sec-
retary of the Interior, wrote as follows :
Department of the Interior,
Office of Indian Affairs,
Washington, November 7, 1914'
The Secretary of the Interior.
Sir: On September 12, 1913, the department authorized the advertising for
bids for grazing privileges ou District No. 3 of the Crow Reservation for the
two-year period beginning February 1, 1914. In response thereto bids were
received and opened at Crow Agency on October 20. 1913.
There is now submitted all the papers in the case, including the letter of
the superintendent, dated October 21. abstract of bids, and several letters sub-
mitted by and on behalf of the several bidders, three in number. For the
reason tliat the bids are considered unsatisfactory, in that they are more or less
indefinite in their terms, and for the further reason that some of the bidders
have submitted supplementary propositions, indicating that the bidders did not
consider their first bids full value for the privileges offered, it has been decided
by this office to reject them all and readvertise. The superintendent and the
several bidders have been so advised.
A form of advertisement has been prepared for insertion in the following-
named papers, at an estimated cost of $100, to be paid from " Indian moneys,
proceeds of labor, Crow Indians."
Now, the payment for this advertisement from this fimd is illegal.
" Indian moneys, proceeds of labor. Crow Indians," I find on looking
over the accounts of the agent in the Treasury, is from the sale of
ceded land. It is a strictly restricted fund, and this is one of the
illegal expenditures of this "fund of which I have complained a good
many times.
Senator Lane. They expended it for advertising?
Mrs. Grey. For advertising.
CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2157
Senator Lane. Where could they have derived the money ?
Mrs. Grey. Why, they have an income from the grazing— $170,000
a year, approximately.
Senator Lane. How do you know it is charged to that fund?
Mrs. Grey. It is so stated here: "At an estimated cost of $100, to
be paid from Indian moneys, proceeds of labor, Crow Indians.' "
In examining the accounts of the Crows I found that the " In-
dian moneys, proceeds of labor," is the sale of ceded lands.
Senator Lane. That is not proceeds of labor.
Mrs. Grey. I know, but it is covered in under that head in order
to avoid the restriction.
Senator Lane. What restriction?
Mrs. Grey. In the abstract of the accounts you will find that there
is always a note at the head of the account which will show to which
fund it is charged, and this "Indian moneys, proceeds of labor,"
from that account, I find, is the sale of ceded lands. That can be
taken up later.
I call your attention to the fact that in advertising for bids the
second time the bid was made on November 7. and the time of the
lease, you see, was almost up. They really hardly had time to make
a bid, because the lease expired on the 31st of January, and there
was only one bid. This might be used as an argument against the
bids except in midsummer. In midsummer they got three bids,
and this time only one bid, which was really not a bid. He only
bid on one part of the range, and Commissioner Sells rejected it.
Senator Lane. How much was it for?
Mrs. Grey. Supt. Scott wired:
One bid only received on district No. 3. Twelve thousand dollars for the
south two-thirds of district. Letter to-day.
Senator Lane. Who bid that?
Mrs. Grey. Lee Simonsen.
Senator Lane. And he had bid higher?
Mrs. Grey. He did bid higher; he did bid what Avould have
amounted to probably three times that much. All his sheep were
on the reservation, and he needed a place to put them, and these
other men wanted it, and yet there was only this one bid.
The next thing is a telegram :
December 1;'. 1913.
William Rea. Jr.,
Billings, Mont.
Please wire approximate number sheep you now have on Crow Ransre No. 3.
Give wethers aijd ewes separately.
Cato Sell.s.
I call your attention to the fact that he wires to the les.see for the
number of sheep that are on the reservation, instead of wiring to
the agent or to any of the about 10 employees who are being paid
for nothing exce]3t to keep track of the stock on the reservation.
Senator Lane. He may have done that to confirm some information
he had received from them.
Mrs. Grey. Yes: but you will remember that wo have had bcfciro a
statement that the chief inspector on the reservation said that lie did
not count sheep because they were not stock; and he was the inspec-
tor on the reservation and the only one who would keep track' of this
number of sheep.
2158 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Senator Lane. Then you claim that the only information that the
commissioner had in rea:ard to the number of sheep on the ran^e, in
this instance, was the information that he received from the lessee?
Mrs. Grey. When I was on the Crow Reservation there was a hear-
ing held at the agency office, and the agent himself testified that there
was no data on the reservation in his office to show how many cattle
there were there or how many sheep. The chief ins]Dector of stock
(Campbell) said he did not know. After a hearing, after about a
year in the Indian Office, they sent Inspector Norris out there, and he
reported the same thing, and said that the matter of branding and
keeping account of the lessees' stock was very poorly done, and that
this man Campbell — you remember the record against him, that his
inspection was practically no inspection; that he had been drunk so
many times on the reservation, and drank before the Indians; that
he had lost his efficiency, and that he was guilty of dealing in horses.
There is everything in the world possible against him, and yet he is
retained on the reservation, and he is to-day helping in receiving this
new $500,000 worth they are buying.
Senator Lane. The deduction which you wish made is that the man-
agement of the business of the Indians is careless, inasmuch as the
employees of the Government do not know how much stock there is
ranging on there, and through that carelessness the affairs of the In-
dians are mismanaged, and they lose money by it?
Mrs. Grey. Unquestionably they lose money. They are receiving
shipments from outside, I think, of half a million dollars' worth of
cattle just now.
Senator Lane. I mean in regard to this sheep matter.
Mrs. Grey. Yes; there is no account at all of the sheep or cattle on
■ that reservation. No one knows, no one has any idea how many cattle
or sheep there are there.
Senator Lane. That is the point you wish to make ?
Mrs. Grey. Yes. I reported that two years ago to the Indian
Office, and they sent Inspector Norris out, and he confirmed that re-
port very strongly.
Senator Lane. You have made this complaint before?
Mrs. Grey. Yes; I have made this complaint for the last eight years.
Senator Lane. And it was confirmed by some inspector?
Mrs. Grey, The first time I made it was to the Senate Indian Com-
mittee. I made it to the grand jury at Helena first, and then I made
it to the Senate Indian Committee, and the result of my making my
charges to the Senate Indian Committee was that the lease money
was changed from about $40,000 a year to $170,000 the next time they
were let. Since that time, as you go through these leases you will see
that they have let it down until it has gone back very materially.
The next letter to show any action in regard to these leases is from
Mr. Z. Lewis Dalby to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, as
follows :
[Z. Lewis Dalby, attorney at law, 425-429 Bond Building.]
Washington, D. C, February 11, 1914.
Hon. Cato Sells,
Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C.
My Dear Mr. Commissioner : Following our conference yesterday afternoon,
I telesraphed Mr. Rea that I had accepted, subject to his approval by this
morning, your offer of the grazing privileges on grazing district No. 3 of the
Crow Reservation, and I am .iust in receipt of a telegram from him in which
CKOW INDIAN RESEBVATION. 2159
he says : " I approve your acceptance of Commissioner Sells's ofifer to lease
rm • {^i^]^^''^^ o"e year nine niontlis, until November 1, 3915, for total $45 000"
Xhis, I believe meets the point squarely, and appears to make the agreement
final, leaving it only to be reduced to writing and duly executed
Mr Rea, however, makes the further suggestion '(not as a condition of his
acceptance of your offer, but as a suggestion for your consideration) that in
view of the fact that it will not be possible for him now to get much use of
this range before spring opens up. you let the term expire at the end of Novem-
ber, instead of at the beginning of that month. I trust that you may see your
way clear, under the circumstance.s, to grant this concession.
On Mr. Rea's behalf I am ready at any time to proceed with the preparation
of the new lease, which I understand will be similar to the old one except In
the matter of price. '
Very truly, yours, Z. j^e^vis Dai.by.
Attorney for William Rca, jr.
This is dated February 11, 1914, 11 days after the lease under
which Mr. Rea was working had expired. This letter shows that
conferences were held in person in the office between the attorney for
Eea Bros, and Mr. Sells.
The next paper is a grazing permit; it does not seem to have a date.
It says:
By authority of the Interior Department permission is hereby granted Wil-
liam Rea, jr., of Billings, Mont., to hold and graze live stock on the Crow
Reservation, on the territory usually known or described as follows —
and then it goes on :
Estimated area, 400,000 acres. * ♦ * Average maximum number of sheep,
not to exceed 70,000.
You see, they have raised the number of sheep.
Senator Lajse. It was 50,000 in the others?
Mrs. Grey. It was 50,000 in the others. Now it is not to exceed
70,000.
Senator Lane. It was raised 20,000 ?
Mrs. Grey. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. That lease runs from February 1 ?
Mrs. Grey. From February 1. This was not completed, but there
are matters I want to take up in connection with it. You see, this
was made on the 1st of February
Senator Lane. Where did that originate ?
Mrs. Grey. Here in Washington, and is evidently the lease de-
scribed in Mr. Dalby's letter. It is $45,000 from February 1 to
July 1.
Senator Lane. February, 1914, to July, 1915; is that what it is?
Mrs. Grey. From Febriiary 1, 1914, to November 1, 1915.
Senator Lane. That has not been entered into?
Mrs. Grey. It was in a way, but in a way not. I will just read it
to you.
The next is a letter written by E. B. Meritt, assistant commis-
sioner, to Mr. AV. W. Scott, February 14, 1914. This was 14 days
after the lease had expired, and Mr. Kea was holding the range at
that time [reading] :
Fkuru.\bv 14, 1914.
Mr. W. W. Scott,
Suvcrintendcnt Crotv School.
My Dear Mr. Scott: Referring to your letter dated December 3, 1913. nnd
previous correspondence regarding the letter of grazing i»rivil.>gos on district
No. 3 for a period of two years, beginning February 1, l!t14, tlifre is inclosed
for your information a copy of letter dated February 11, 1914, from the attor-
ney for William Rea, jr., accepting on behalf of Mr. Ren an oCfer to lease the
2160 OEOW INDIAN RESERVATION.
district for a period of one year and nine months, commencing February 1 of
this year, for a total consideration of $45,000.
There is also inclosed a permit in four parts which has been tentatively ac-
cepted by Mr. Ilea's attorney. You are instructed to sign the same in quad-
ruplicate on behalf of the Indians and forward it to Mr. Rea at his address at
Billings, Mont., for his signature. It is understood that a surety company bond
will be furnished, and for this purpose Mr. Rea will return the papers to his
Washington attorney.
When the department shall have taken action on the permit and bond a copy
will be furnished for your file, and at the same time you will be definitely
instructed regarding the disposition of the deposit submitted by Mr. Rea. In
the meantime you will return to all other bidders the amounts received in con-
nection with their bids on this range.
Very truly, yours,
E. B. Meritt, Assistant Commissioner.
(Carbon to Z. Lewis Dalby, Bond Building, Washington, D. C.)
Now, evidently Mr. Rea made the proper deposit of 10 per cent.
The range Avas awarded to him, and not to anyone else, and the
time of awarding had passed, and this check was put up as a forfeit.
Senator Lane. Was that all made subject to advertisement — were
bids advertised for?
Mrs. Grey. It should have been, but it was not, you see. This
range should have been let to Lee Simonson. It was not so let, but
at the same time the check was put up as a deposit, as Mr. Meritt
says. In other words, the deposit submitted by Mr. Rea was put
up as a deposit to be forfeited ; of course, it could not have been put
up for anything else. If they did not complete the bid as it had
been awarded to them, that would be the only reason there could have
been a check deposit, because it was not in payment of the lease. It
was put on deposit, as Mr. Meritt says.
I examined the accounts of Agent Scott, and I find no record where
this bid was forfeited, although the time for letting the lease has
passed, and the award was made to Rea Bros, for the 1st of Feb-
ruary, and no other award was made until the 1st of April. Con-
sequently, the Indians lost the time of February and March, and,
estim.ated at the rate that Mr. Simonson bid, that was quite a heavy
loss. I am not sure that the bid was not forfeited, but I can not
find any record.
Senator Lane. The check ?
Mrs. Grey. Yes, sir. I could not find any account of the check.
April 1, 1914 — two months later — Commissioner Sells wired to
Agent Scott, superintendent of Crow Agency, Mont, (reading) :
Apeil 1, 1914.
Scott, Svpcrintendcni, Croto Agency, Mont.:
Your telegram March 31. Rea has not submitted permit here. If he fails
to complete agreement you will be authorized to negotiate permits for grazing
sheep this year at 45 cents a head. You will be notified in few days what
action to take.
Cato Sells.
The next is a telegram from Mr. Scott, which should really pre-
cede the other. It is dated March 31, 1914, to the Indian Office,
Washington, D. C. (reading) :
Crow Agency, Mont.. March 31, Wl.'/.
Indian Office, Wasliingtnn, D. C:
Request advice as to st;itus Rea permit, range No. 3. Indications Rea will
not be able to carry out agreement. In case this proves to be correct, could
probably permit to other pnrties if immediate action is taken.
Scott, Superintendent.
CROW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2161
The next is a telegram dated April 4, 1914, from Cato Sells, com-
missioner, to Scott, superintendent Crow Agency [reading] :
Scott, Superintendent Crow Agency, Mont.: *^^''''^' "*' ^^^*'
Does grazing district No. 3 include ceded lands bet\veeu line of diminished
reservation and Burlington Ilailroad fenceV Wire innnediately »""""^"ea
Cato Ski.ls.
Mr. Scott's reply is [reading] :
T ^ ,.. , . Ckow Agency, Mont., .l/;/(7 5 I'JIf,
Indian Office, Mashmgton, D. C: ./•',■"/•
Tour wire 4tli. No ceded lands included in range 3.
Scott, Stipcrintcndcnt.
You will remember, the commissioner said that it did include the
ceded lands the other evening.
The next paper in the file of this district No. 3 is what seems to be
a permit to James P. Magee and D. B. Zimmerman, of Omaha,
Nebr., and of Somerset, Pa. It is just a blank form, and it is for
a minimum of 50,000 head of sheep or 10,000 head of cattle, an aver-
age not to exceed 70,000 sheep and 12,000 head of cattle, and it is for
$45,000, a total payment running from April 1, 1914, to January 1,
1916, and the first installment to be paid in four equal installments
of $11,250 cash; and on October 1, 1914, and April 1, 1915, and
October 1, 1915. There are no restrictions connected with it at
all of any kind. There is no consent of the Indians. It is the
first permit I have ever seen for Crow Agency which wholly disre-
gards the law, that the Indians must consent to the lease of these
ranges. The Indians had permitted it to be leased before, but every
other lease that I have ever seen on Crow Reservation has had some
kind of an action by the Indians, as the law requires. This contains
none. This is simply overriding the Indians absolutely.
Senator Lane. But it is not signed.
Mrs. Grey. It is not signed ; no.
Senator Lane. Maybe it was merely a tentative leases.
Mrs. Grey. It might be a tentative lease, Senator Lane, but there
was an acceptance of money on the permit.
Senator Lane. Money accepted on it?
Mrs. Grey. Yes ; the money was accepted.
I will just compete that.
Senator Lane. All right, then.
Mrs. Grey. There is a telegram missing, but this is a reply to a
telegram. It is dated April 6, 1914, from the Crow Agency, Mont.,
signed by W. W. Scott, superintendent, to the Hon. Commissioner
of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. (reading) :
Department of the Interior,
United States Indian Service,
Crow Agency, Mont., Apiil 6, 19t.'i.
The Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. C.
Sir: Referring to your wire of even date, I have this day wired you ns
follows :
" Your wire to-day. Close estlniate 330.000 acres exclusive of sold or fenceil
land in range 3. Mailing map and description."
Inclose herewith map showing range 3. The McCormick fence mentioned la
old leases was removed many years ago, so I think thnt this description
ghould be more definitely described. The following description is given to
2162 CKOW INDIAX EESERVATION.
cover district No. 3, the western boundary is given as nearly as possible on
the line of the old McCormick fence.
" Beginning at the point where the Big Horn River crosses south line of
reservation, thence west to middle line sec. 14, T. 7 S., R. 28 E., thence north
along half-section line to south line of T. 5 S., R 28 E., thence east to middle
line sec. 35, T. 5 S., R. 28 E., thence north along half-section line to the north
line of sec. 11, T. 5 S., R. 28 E., thence in a northeasterly course to a point
where the north boundary of the reservation crosses the center line of sec. 2,
T. 2 S., R. 30 E., thence east along reservation line to section line between sees.
3 and 4, T. 2 S., R. 33 E., thence south to the Big Horn River, thence up Big
Horn River to place of beginning."
Very respectfully,
W. W. Scott, Superintendent.
You see, this in no wise takes account of the allotments that they
had in No. 3. It is only of the land that is fenced and also what
has been sold, and it leaves 330,000 acres.
Senator Lake. How much allotted land would there be in there, do
you suppose ?
Mrs. Grey. Well, I have here with me
Senator Lane. Well, approximately?
Mrs. Gray. I have only 8 townships, and in the map which I
have made of this district there are 15 townships. I have only an
account of 8 townships, and I estimate 85,000 acres by the allot-
ments that are here. I have only half — that would make one-third
of this allotted land, at least, and I should say there is more. In ex-
amining these allotments from the individual leases, I found that
very frequently land was allotted and did not show on these records
here. Right here is Booce Creek [referring to map]. I know that
all of this is taken up by allotments. Nothing here is shown. I
think that a large proportion of this range is allotted.
Senator Lane. And that Avould be unlawful ?
Mrs. Grey. Yes. The allotments are not subject to a lease or alien-
ation of any kind.
Senator Lane. Is it against an}'' provision of the law ?
Mrs. Grey. That is the law; that the title to be acquired to the
land allotted to the Crows is not to be subject to lease, alienation, tax-
ation, or decree of any court.
Senator Lane. Then, if that lease had been entered into, it would
not have been one that could have been enforced; it was illegal?
Mrs. Grey. It is illegal on two points. It was not submitted to the
Indians
Senator Lane. Does the law require it should be ?
Mrs. Grey. Yes; the law requires that it shall be and it always has
been.
Senator Lane. How do you know it was not submitted to the
Indians?
Mrs. Grey. There is nothing here in the lease to show it.
Senator Lane. Should the lease show that?
Mrs. Grey. Yes; every permit and every lease I have seen before
have been accompanied with what appears to be the action of the
council of the tribe. The older leases all contain a form of council
proceedings that Avere embodied in the lease until they changed it and
made the permit instead of the leases. But this is the first time I
liave ever seen a permit made on Crow Reservation that wholly
ignores the Indians. The Indians are bitterly opposed to cattle on
this district, because they are running a good many cattle here, and
CROW INDIAX RESERVATION, 2163
they have their own hmds. They have been trying Xaj Unm. This is
bench land here; it is one of the finest land sectio.is tliat there are
in that country, and you can see for voui-self how well watered it is
It is not at all dry land; and they are running their own stock, tlieir
horses, and farming quite a little up there. A good nianv Indians
have taken out ditches of their own, and they object to cattle because
the cattle break through their fences. See all the trouble and annoy-
ance they avoid. They would ha^•e nothing but sheep there, and they
have nothing but sheep there. Eea Bros, run only sheep. But this
bid is for either cattle or sheep.
Senator Lane. Have any cattle or sheep been placed on there ^
Mrs. Grey. Yes; and I understand there is a very lai-ge number of
sheep and that the cattle are there, too. Several of the Indians have
written that to me.
The next paper is a paper that is signed by Mr. Meritt, assistant
commissioner, and dated April 6, 1914 (reading) :
April 6. 1914.
Received of Jerome P. iNIagee cheek for $11,250. first p.ijinent on lease ou
Crow Keservatiou grnxing district No. 3. dniwn in favor of t lie snperiutendent
of tlie Crow Reservation, check nn<ertified and drawn on the t'nited States
National Bank. Onialia. Nebr.
E. B. Meritt,
Assistant Commissioner.
This was the first payment. Xow. Jerome 1*. Magee is not, in fact, a
cattleman; he is an attorney. I show you here his letterhead [exhib-
iting paper to the commission ]. This is the same man.
Senator Lane. What does it say?
Mrs. (trey. " Attorney at laAv."
Senator Lane. There may be many attorneys who are cattlemen,
Mrs. Grey. Yes. He is a very well-knoAvn man in Omaha. He
goes by the name of '' Rome '' Magee. and lie is the nephew of Mar-
shall Field, and was one of the heirs. He inherited a large sum from
the estate.
Senator Lane. Well, were the}' not cattle people?
Mrs. Grey. They were cattle people: that is. their investment in-
cluded cattle.
Senator Lane. Well, he is probabh'- used to dealing in cattle?
Mrs. Grey. Yes; stock. But he is, as you see, a lawyer in Omaha.
The point I want to make is. Senator Lane, that the lease was let
to D. B. Zimmerman, and Zimmerman is of the firm of Spear-
Zimmerman Cattle Co., which was a reorganization of the Spear
Bros., of which H. C. Bostwick is president, and that this range is,
in fact, let to Bostwick, and Magee came on to Washington as the
attorney and made the lease here in person, and made the deposit for
the first payment.
Senator Lane. It has been advertised, has it not?
Mrs, Grey, No, sir.
Senator Lane. Does the law require it to be advertised, or do they
do as they please about that? They usually do advertise?
Mrs. Grey. They are supposed to advertise these ranges.
Senator Lane. But they do not have to, do they ; they are not com-
pelled to, I mean ?
Mrs. Grey. I^'ntil that hearing in 1908 I think they did not ad-
vertise them, but I think that after that time — I do not know whether
85001— PT 15—14 23
2164 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
an order was made or liow it was done — I think I :un right about
that. In fact, I kniiw they did. Yes: I think they have always heen
advertised.
The next is a letter dated April 7. 1914. signed by Cato Sells, com-
missioner, and addressed to AV. AV. Scott, superintendent Crow
School [reading! •
Ai'Kii. 7. iin-4.
Mr. W. W. ScoTi',
Suiierintvjidcnt Vrow School.
My Dear Mr. Scott: In ftntlier lesiKnise to .vour U'legraiu of .Manb ol. tlieie
is inclosed a j)erniit in quadrujiHcate in favor of .lerouie P. .Magee and D. B. Ziiu-
mermau for grazing stock on district No. 3 for a period from April 1. ]»14, to
January 1, 1916. at a total consideration of .$45,(XX). This permit has been
signed by Mr. Magee and there is inclosed a check iu your favor for $11,250,
covering the first payment. You are requested to sign all parts of the permit
aud forward it to Mr. Magee, 644 Brandeis Building. Omaha, Neln-.. in order
that a bond may be furnished and for the signature of Mr. Zimmerman.
Mr. Rea's attorney has been notified that the offer to grant him grazing priv-
ileges on district No. 3 has been withdrawn.
Very truly, yours,
Cato Sells, Coiiiiiilssloncr.
That, you see, was just about two months after the range had been
aw arded to Rea Bros., and Rae Bros, had put up a check as a deposit
in good faith.
The next is a telegram signed by Cato Sells, dated April 22, 1914,
and addressed to Scott, superintendent. Crow Agency, INIont.
(reading) :
April 22, 1914.
Scott. Superintendent Croiv Aiieuey, Mont.:
Advise office what action has been taken on permit to Zimmerman and Magee
for district 3. Has check covering first semiannual payment been collected?
Cato Sells.
To which Agent Scott replied (reading) :
Crow Agency, Mont.. AprU 23, 191.^.
Indian Office, Washington. D. C:
Office wire 22 permit for district No. 3 mailed McGee April 13. Check mailed
depositary to-day for collection.
Scott, Superintendent.
Mrs. Grey. That is all.
Senator Lane. That is all you have to-night?
Mrs. Grey. That is all of district Xo. 3.
Senator Lane. It is your contention, as I understand it, that these
leases have not been regularly entered into; that they include lands
■which are illegally rented, if they are rented at all, and that it is
done without advertisement at private bid and at a less price than the
land is worth overstocked?
Mr. Grey. At much less than it is worth; much less than the
actual bid was made by responsible men who had sheep on the reser-
vation. Between the time that Mr. Lee Simonson made his bid and
the time that Mr. Magee came here and made the bid for Zimmerman
they had closed out Lee Simonson, and he is supposed to have gone
into bankruptcy. I think, in fact, the sheep are still on the reserva-
tion ; I think he broke into the ring ; I think that is what happened.
Senator Lane. You do not Imow anything about that ?
Mrs. Grey. I know his sheep, and I know he is shipping a large
number of sheep from Billings.
Senator Lane. Simonson?
Mrs. Grey. Yes.
CEOW INDIAN RESERVATION. 2165
St'iititor Lane. Yon think he has made some sort of an arrange-
ment '{
Mrs. Grey. Yes : I think he '' broke into the ring."
TESTIMONY OF Z. LEWIS DALBY— Resumed.
Senator Lane. Do you want to make any remarks, Mr. Dalby?
Mr. Dalby. On this. Senator?
Senator Lane. Yes.
Mr. Dalby. No; I have no desire to say anything on this subject,
Lut I will be very glad to giv.e you any information I have if you
desire to ask me any question.
Senator Lane. Do you know anything about this?
Mr. Dalby. Oh, yes ; I know a good deal about it.
Senator Lane. You were sworn the other night?
Mr. Dalby. Yes.
Senator Lane. What is the condition about that matter of Magee?
Was that lease made to Magee along about this time?
Mr. Dalby. That is my information. I do not represent Magee
and have that only on the statement of others. I think this, there
is no question of the fact that it was given to Magee. I represented
Mr. Rea up to that time and he w^as endeavoring to make his arrange-
ments to meet the requirements and did not succeed.
Senator Lane. What happened to Rea ?
Mr. Dalby. He was not able to come to the scratch with his money.
Senator Lane. Was it advertised the last time?
Mr. Dalby. The last time it was advertised was, I think, in October
or November.
Senator Lane. And this, then, was let without public bidding —
open competition?
Mr. Dalby. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. The custom has been that it should be by open
bidding and advertised for, has it?
Mr. Dalby. I think so. I think it always has been. As the com-
missioner explained to you the other day, he was up against a con-
dition of getting that range used; and, as it seemed to me as the
attorney for Mr. Rea, he drove a mighty good bargain under the con-
ditions'that then existed. Mr. Rea was in the position of having
stock on feed in the Yellowstone Valley, which he wished to provide
range for, having removed all his stock from the Crcnv Reservation
before. You w^ill find a telegram in the files to that effect.
Mrs. Grey. Yes; the telegram is there— that they had no stock on
the reservation.
Mr. Dalby. He had no stock on the reservation, but he had stock
on feed in the Yellow^stone Valley, and it was necessary for him to
provide range for those, and it was a crucial condition for him. and
under those conditions he made a very much higher arrangement as
to price than he would have made under other conditions, but he was
not able to finance it. It was too high. „ , , ^, .
Senator Lane. If they were to advertise for those leases, so that
the sheep and cattlemen could go on there in midsummer, ratlier
than in the dead of winter, it seems to me they would receive more
bids. . , . c J.
Mr. Dalby. It would be a more logical time, benator.
2166 CROW INDIAN RESERVATION.
Senator Lane. This idea of trving: to move cattle or sheep onto-
a range at the 1st of February is simply out of the question.
Mr. Dalby. Senator, it ought to he either in the spring oi- the
fall, at one end of the grazing season, and as you will see in his
arrangement with Mr. Eea, that change was made at the suggestion
of Mr. Eea, made through myself, and the commissioner changed it
to the 1st of November, and Mr. Rea felt that that was a little bit
early, and we tried to get him to move it up to the last of November,
and he declined to do that, after having adopted our suggestion as to
making it end earlier, and having fixed that date earlier than we
wished it fixed, he adhered to his original date.
Senator Lane. But if the cattle were taken off of there, assuming
that Rea's lease expired February, 1911, and he had gotten off by the
middle of February, and then you would begin a system of advertis-
ing that somebody shall have possession the 1st of June or July, and
advertised freely, and then people could come on there all right, and
there would be plenty of grass?
Mr. Dalby. Oh, yes. This is really the situation : The term ending
February 1 made it necessary for Mr. Rea to do as he did, to take his
sheep off in the fall. Then the new man could not get on until the
spring, you see.
Senator Lane. I see. If they had advertised for bids to everybody,
free and open competition, that they could enter on there in time for
the spring range, instead of having to come on there in the winter;
it seems to me they would have had a number of bids.
Mr. Dalby. Anybody would know that, that they could get on any
time that the range was suitable for his stock after he had made his
lease, but he could not come on before he made his lease, and the
office could not permit him to come on before making a lease.
Senator Lane. But there would be more bids for the use of the
range if it was so that the lessee could get onto it in the season when
he could feed.
Mr. Dalby. In reply to that, I would say. generally. Senator, I
think it would be better to have it at some other time, and the com-
missioner recognized that.
Senator Lane. I do not see how anyone could expect to get much
competitive bidding where the lessee has to take possession of the
range in midwinter.
Mr. Dalby. It does not really affect it from that point of view,
Senator, because whenever the term begins and ends it is a range,
and there is competition for that range and everybody meets the
same condition. There would be competition just the same, but it is
not as good a time for changing concessionaires.
Senator Lane. I would not think so.
We will now adjourn until a later time.
(Thereupon, at 10.15 o'clock p. m., the joint commission stood
adjourned.)
MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AKEAIP.S
SERIAL ONE
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
JOINT COMMISSION OF THE
CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES
SIXTY-THIRD CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
TO
INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS
JULY 13, 1914
PART 16
Printed for the use of the Joint Commission
"Yk
WASHINGTON
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OrPIOE
1U14
Congress of the United States.
JOINT COMMISSION TO INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS.
Senators : Representatives :
JOB T. ROBINSON, Arkansas, Chairman. JOHN H. STEVENS, Texas.
HARRY LANE, Oregon. CHARLES D. CARTER, Oklahoma.
CHARLES E. TOWNSEND, Michigan. CHARLES H. BURKE, South Dakota.
R. B. Keating, Arkansas, Secretary.
Ross Williams, Arkansas, Clerk.
It
MEDICAL SEHVirE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS.
monday. july 13. 1914.
Joint Commission to Inaestigate Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. C.
The joint commission, being in session and having had other mat-
ters under consideration, proceeded to hear the following testimony :
Present: Senators Lane (acting chairman) and Townsend.
TESTIMONY OF MISS LITCRETIA T. ROSS.
The witness was duly sworn by Senator Lane.
Senator Lane. Xow, your name in full is what ?
Miss Koss. Lucretia Thompson Ross.
Senator Lane. Where do you reside, Miss Eoss?
Miss Ross. I have no home. I call my home w-ith my sister, at
New Richmond, Ohio.
Senator Lane. What is your occupation?
Miss Ross. Trained nurse.
Senator Lane. Has that been your occupation of late?
Miss Ross. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Where have you been at work?
iVIiss Ross. I ha^'e been supervising nurse in the United States In-
dian Service.
Senator Lane. Supervising nurse ?
Miss Ross. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. That means a nurse who has supervision over w^hat?
Miss Ross. I was emploA^ed to travel at large throughout the service
to visit all schools and .reservations, to instruct field matrons, to
instruct school nurses, to help them to more scientific work, to organ-
ize classes, and give a course of lectures to all large girls in the schools
on sex hygiene, the care of the new born, and similar things.
Senator Lane. How^ long were you engaged in that ?
Miss Ross. As supervising nurse ?
Senator Lane. Yes.
Miss Ross. I was employed as supervising nurse May 17, 1909.
Senator Lane. You are employed by the Government now ?
Miss Ross. ISTo, sir.
Senator Lane. When did vou sever your relations?
Miss Ross. July 11, 1914.
Senator Lane. Just a few days ago?
Miss Ross. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. What was the occasion? . .
Miss Ross. I was asked to resign by Hon. Cato Soils, ('oinmissioner
of Indian Affairs.
21H7
2168 MEDICAL SERVICE, BUKKAU KNUIA^" AFFAIRS.
Senator La>'e. Do ,you know of any reason why?
" Miss Eoss. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Will you state it?
Miss Boss. I have here with me all evidence in the case, all the
letters I submitted, and all the letters from Mr. Sells, and I ask
your permission to offer these as evidence and have them entered in
the record.
Senator Lank. They Avill be accepted. Do you Avish to make a
verbal statement in connection with them, or just hand over the
documents ?
Miss Ross. I wish to make a statement.
Senator Lane. Very well ; go ahead.
Miss Ross. I was detailed to White Earth Reservaticn Auj^ust,
1912, after the Graham investigating committee had visited White
Earth and had discovered such a dreadful condition of affairs among
the Indians on the White Earth Reservation, especially the full
bloods. They recouimended that some of the schools be closed and
hospital work be begun instead. The boarding school at Pine Point
was closed as a school, I think in April, and opened as a hospital.
They did some work during the summer, and in August I was detailed
to the White Earth Reservation to assist in trachoma work over the
reservation and to get the hospital in shape.
I visited Pine Point, went to the hospital — which was the old
school building — and I found things in a fearfully unsanitary condi-
tion— an unsightly, filthy condition. The teacher of the school, who
had taught there the year previous, still had her room on the second
floor of the school building, and the stench wdien we got to the head
of the stairs W'as nauseating. I had her removed over to the em-
ployees' quarters in order to clean up the hospital building, and, in
company with the field matron, took three large pailfuls — which
would fill a tub almost — of ashes and debris from the stove in the
teacher's room, that was packed down wdth urine and other debris.
There was no screen on the entire plant. The flies sw^armed every-
thing. There was a large room that had been used as a schoolroom,
one corner of which was stacked with old sehoolbooks, and along the
side were stacked a dozen or more old double mattresses that had been
used for years with Indian children. There were four or five old
double beds, without a sheet on them, across the other side of the
room, and Indians in different stages of disease occupied those beds,
and food, and other debris littered the floors. The flies literally
swarmed that place.
Senator Lane. Were these patients?
Miss Ross. These were patients ; yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Was some one in charge of them ?
Miss Ross. The field matron was supposed to look after them._
Across the hall in another room was the worst case of syphilis I
have ever seen — actually dying, and flesh falling from the bones — and
there were no screens there, and flies swarmed. The privies were
mere earth closets, and the flies flew out of them by the score. The
wells were little 10 or 15 foot wells that acted merely as drains for the
adjacent privies and slops.
That was the condition I found at Pine Point hospital— the United
States Hospital for the Indians. There was not a blind in the build-
ing. There was not a sash curtain in the building. I think I counted
MEDICAL SER\^CE, BUREAU IXDIAX AFFAIRS. 2169
72 or 74 towels, some of them 1 8 inches in length, for the entire plant.
They had been used all year for school children. Everything else was
the same way.
I tried to get supplies to make curtains, to make pillow cases,
sheets, and blinds. I got into the commissary after awhile, and
found that we had ample supplies to make 200 opaque window
blinds— I mean 100 blinds; 1 covmted the number of feet. There
were ample supplies to make 200 pairs of sash curtains, but I had
difficulty in getting anything, because the farmer of the plant was in
charge.
Senator Lane. Xow. by that do you mean in charge of the en-
tire
Miss Ross. Of the plant: yes, sir. There was a doctor there—
Dr. Thomas H. Rodwell — ^but he was unable to get a thing.
Senator Lane. Why? It seems to me he would be the one who
would be in chai'ge.
Miss Ross. Oh. I am simply stating the facts.
Senator Lane. I understand. The farmer was running the hos-
pital 't
Miss Ross. The farmer was running the whole plant, hospital,
and all.
Senator Lane. Go ahead.
Miss Ross. I wrote to my chief, Dr. Murphy, and explained the
difficulty that I experienced in getting supplies. He sent my letter
to Maj. John R. Howard, superintendent of the reser^•ation, with a
request to know wh}^ these things were. Maj. Howard became in-
tensely indignant over it. I am told by people wlio heard it — Dr.
Polk Richards is the man who reported it to me — that he cursed me
in the open office, and said I had " gone off half-cocked,'" and im-
mediately set to work to head ofl' every movement to do good work
at that place.
They had a lot of laborers repairing the buildings of the plant.
They put every one of the laborers into the hospital room. That
took one of our big rooms. The field matron had her quarters in the
hospital building. That took another room. The sewing room v,as
Kept in the hospital building, and that took another room.
And all the buildings in the entire plant Avere torn up. They
toi-e out all the floors at the same time. They did not fix one buihl-
ing. They tore up everything. The kitchen floor was torn \\\). the
windows were torn out," the doors were off. The diuing-rooui floor
was torn up. They stacked lumber in there so we had no i)Ia('e where
we could take care of patients.
Senator Lane. They dismantled it so it could uot be used as a
hospital ?
Miss Ross. Made it so we could not get them m. We just ran
them from one place to another— old. blind people, and people in
every stage of affliction. We did our very best uiuler tliose con(b-
tions. Dr. Rodwell was transferred from that place
Senator Lane. Does Dr. Rodwell Imow these facts?
Miss Ross. Yes. Senator. Dr. Rodwell was transferred, and Dr.
James L. Ballon was sent there to be superintendent of the hospital
and plant. Dr. Ballon was a splendidly trained young man. He got
to Pine Point, and was snubbed to death, and not allowed to have au-
thority in anything. He had to ask tlie farmer for a puM-c of u-e, or
2170 MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS.
for a yard of muslin, or anything else. In confirmation of this I have
here an exhibit that I have marked " No. 1."
We went on doin^ the best we could, working against such odds
as that until the 8th day of November, when Mai. Howard came
over from White Earth and ordered the hospital closed. He said
no authority had been received for having one, and they were going
to open it up as a school.
Senator Lane. Who ordered you there in the first place?
Miss Eoss. Dr. Joseph A. Murphy, my chief.
I submit Exhibit No. 1. I use this because in the charges against
me Mr. Sells makes some statements, as you will hear after a bit.
(The secretary to the joint commission read the letter referred to,
as follows:)
Exhibit No. 1.
Department of the Interior,
United States Indian Service,
Ponsford, Minn., November 9, 1912.
Dr. .Joseph A. Murphy,
Washington, D. C.
Dear Sir : I wish to say a word in regard to the hospital at this place. We
have at present 17 patients in the house (all we can care for, because of lack
of supplies), and .several who come in twice a day for treatment. Others are
waiting to come in. Several of these cases are old Indians who are waiting
for operations; one of them is totally blind and has to be led around.
Friday ]Ma.i. Hovt^ard came up here and ordered the house filled with children
and a school started. Said that no authority had been received for a hospital
at this place.
The farmer this morning (Saturday) excused the only person detailed here
besides the field matron, sent the policeman (who carried the wood and water)
to AVhite Earth. He to-day told the field matron, who is detailed here, that she
was foolish to do this work — that he would not do it. The farmer's wife (not
an employee) has endeavored to get the employees to l)and together and protest
against tlie weekly inspection of buildings.
Conditions are .iust the same that they were when the whole country was
aroused over conditions at this place, and some provision should be made to
better conditions. We have only been allowed the team one afternoon in which
to look up patients since Dr. Ballon came here.
If hospital is not authorized here, T should like to know it and be detailed
elsewhere.
Respectfully,
(Signed) L. T. Ross.
Supervising ISfursr.
Miss Eoss. I would like to speak right here, please. The 'next
morning another patient had come into the house, and the farmer
very seriously objected to his being admitted. I did not know what
to do with my people, so I went down and sent this telegram to
Dr. Murphy.
(The secretary to the joint commission read as follows:)
PoNsFORD, Minn., Noremhcr 10, 1912.
Dr. J. A. Murphy, Washington, D. C:
Eighteen patients in hospital and more asking admission. Ma.i. Howard
Friday ordered house filled with children and school started. Says hospital has
not been authorized. Letter follows. Wire orders in regard to patients.
Ross.
From Nunn's residence to Malmomen.
Miss Eoss. The school was filled with children. They were diseased
and needed attention, but we had one patient in the house who could
not be put out. She was desperately ill, and we had to keep her
MEDICAL SEBVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS. 2l7l
there— kept her until she died, in fact. 1 was extremely solicitous
about this patient, and I will submit Exhibit No. 2, which will de-
scribe something of the conditions under which we worked. I wish
you would remember, when you read the statement in regard to
this second patient that 1 call attention to, that we did not have
gauze to dress that awful case. I used all the old sheets on the place.
I begged old sheets and pillow cases from the Indians, and when the
case got so bad I used up all the old newspapers in every Indian home
in that community to wrap up that arm with. That was in a United
States Government hospital for Indians.
(The secretary to the joint commission read the letter referred to
as follows:) *
Exhibit No. 2.
Department of the Interior,
United States Indian Service,
Ponsford, Minn., November 10, 1912.
Dr. Joseph A. Murphy.
Washington. D. C.
Dear Sir: I wish to call your attention to some badly needed changes in
regard to the buying of drugs on the White Earth Reservation. There is no
provision made for buying any drugs in the open market, and great suffering
is the result.
When I came to Pine Point in August there was a women in the house being
cared for by the field matron. She was an old syphilitic — top of head one solid
scab, nose and lips eaten away, and loose teeth protruding, from halfway from
her knees to her toes on both feet was a solid putrid sore, without 5 inches of
whole skin on that entire surface. Her treatment consisted of inunctions of
citrine ointment and mercury protriodide by mouth. In September she had
to be moved to her shack, as the room for isolation could not be spared here.
The 1st of September Dr. Richards ordered salvarsan (606) for her. I
visited her a week ago and found her the same wretched ol^ject, slightly im-
proved, and they are now giving her grand medicine.^
Up to date the salvarsan has not been received. October 17, 1912, an Indian
woman, 38 years of age, mother of three small children, was admitted to the
hospital at this place with a bad cellulitis of the right hand. Septicemia r;ii>-
idly developed, and in spite of everything that could be done death was
imminent.
The husband borrowed $12, and Dr. Ballon ordered antistreptococus serum
(60 c. c)- There was a decided change for the better at once: fever was greatly
reduceed. and the blackened, horribly swollen hand and arm began to improve.
There are IS holes in the forearm and hand connected by and through drain-
age. The pus which has literally poured from the part has been gre.itly di-
minished and every symptom improved.
Now erysipelas iias developed in the entire right shoulder (front and back)
and is spreading across the back. Fever is high accompanied with nausea an<l
other manifestations. Serum would doubtless entirely eradicate the trouble,
but we have none, can not get any. and because of this the woman's life will
in all probability be sacrificed.^
I could mention other cases that would illustrate the need of proper medicine
at the proper time, but these are sufficient.
1 recommend that authority be given physicians to purchase in the oi)en
market the drugs needed or those not furnished by the department.
Respectfully.
(Signed) UrcRiniA T. Ross.
Supervising \urnr.
Miss Ross. The last of November I had never heard anything
whatever about my plea for medicines, and the last of NovoinbiM-
iDied shortly afterwards. Medicine ordered was never supplied.
2 I called Mr Howard up on the telephone and told hlra that medicines would JUHt hnve
to be secured for This cas.? Tie said he had no authorlt.v to do it, but I Insisted hat or
the sake of the three little children we musi -iv.- the woman a rhance for her life, lie
then said to get tho medieino wp needed.
2172 MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS.
Dr. Murphy and 8upei\ isor Peiice — Charles F. Peirce — visited Pine
Point and ^vent over the needs of the phace. The school was in ses-
sion at the time, and the adult Indians had no hospital facalities.
They recommended that a temporary hospital be constructed, and
urged that teams be provided for the doctors. I will say to you
that on that large reservation a doctor would be located so he would
have from 25 to 35 miles to travel to see his patients, and no team
was furnished him at all.
Dr. Ballon entered the service a yonng man, and about 10 days
after his advent on the reservation he was called out to see a very
sick patient one night. A man came for him, and he went out and
took care of his patient, and it was raining as it can rain only in
Minnesota, and the man went on and left him, and Dr. Ballon walked
7 miles in the middle of the night, carr3dng his two cases with him,
because a team could not be furnished the doctor. That was the
case with all the doctors over the reservation. I am simply naming
one case.
I assisted the doctor to operate on as many children as needed at-
tention. I took the temperatures, pulse, and respiration, and assisted
in making the examinations, and I think we found one sound pair
of lungs m the bunch.
Senator Lane. How many did you examine?
Miss Ross. Every child that was there.
Senator Lane. How many would that be?
Miss Ross. I can not just give you the number; I think about 35,
possibly. And the one girl that had sound lungs was completely
blind in one eye and almost in the other from trachoma. Everybody
else has trachoma also.
Senator Lane. Everybody else has tfachoma? That was a real
nice place up there.
Miss Ross. December 11 I was ordered to Red Lake, Minn., and
left White Earth Reservation. I was at Red Lake from December 11
to March 8, when I was ordered to return to "White Earth Reserva-
tion— that the new hospital w'as completed and ready for occupancy,
and I was to go there and get it started.
I arrived on the scene, and they had retrograded. The place was
as filthy as it was before, almost. Very few children attended the
school, and the doctor could not even get them to come in for treat-
ment if the farmer decided it was not necessary. I reported condi-
tions to my chief, and I submit exhibit No. 3.
(The secretary to the joint conmiission read the letter referred to,
as follows:)
Exhibit No. 3.
Department of the Interior,
United States Indian Service,
Ponsford. Minn.. March — , 1913.
Dr. Joseph A. Murphy,
Washington, D. C.
Dear Sib : I arrived at Ponsford more than a week ago and reported to Dr.
Ballon tor duty.
I am treating the children dally, but that is all I do, owing to the fact that
we liave no place to work and no assistance in the housework, even though the
building were ready for occujiancy.
Of all the poor things I ever saw this shack, designated an "eye hospital,"
is the worst. It is located back of the main buildings, in a low. marshy place
where tlie water stands several inches deep in tlie spring ;ind summer. :md
MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAX AFFAIRS. 2173
not a tree nor n i.article of shade near it. Ou the opi-osite side of the eauinus
IS dry. rollms.'; land, and beantiful pine trees for shade.
The building is of upright boards for sides and roof covered with tar
paper on the outside and red building paper on the inside.
No roof other than tar paper, although it rains in a deluge here in the
summer.
The building consists of two wings for wards 16 by 32 feet, with three
windows and an outside door in each. The middle room, which is for a
sitting room, is IG by 3S feet, and has a door in Ihe front and back, two
windows opposite each other are placed 10 feet from the back door; stove' is in
the same region.
The walls are dark-red building paper, and the room is dark and unsani-
tary, no way of ventilating except two small windows placed opposite each
other in the back part of the room.
When one steps into any of the rooms the floors oscillate all over the build-
ings. A large opening is along the floor between the wall and the floor.
When one considers the total cost of the building the character of the
structure is at once apparent.
Hauling lumber $150
Labor for building 120
Total 270
The doors, windows, and hardware were on hand from improvements made
here last fall. JMaj. Howard chose the site because of the proximity to the
dining room and water, but as the only wells here are surface wells about 10
feet deep, which act as drains for the adjacent privy and slop pit, a well can be
put down in less than half a day.
The eye work at this place is almsot altogether surgical ; yet there is not a
spot that can be utilized as an operating room — no place for drugs nor
appliances.
It does seem that the medical department of the Indian Service should be
consulted in the matter of building hospitals, but such is not the case here.
Dr. Ballon was here all the time, but he was never consulted in regard to
the location or arrangement of the building. The school here does not amount
to anything to speak of. Very few children attend at all, and they only
report when they feel so inclined. Ten were absent from school and treatment
yesterday, so the trachoma and school work here is a mere farce.
Dr. Ballon is sincere and earnest in his desire to help these people, and I
believe he has their confidence and good will, but no team has been furnished
him to visit the Indians, so he works under a great disadvantage.
I have been in Minnesota, most of the time on the White Earth Reservation,
since the latter part of August. 1912, and in that time have not done as
much work as I have previously in a month, although the entire time has been
spent among people who are sorely afflicted and need help very badly.
I have delayed asking for a transfer to a field matron's position, hoping that I
might be able to be of assistance to these people in their poverty and misery,
but it seems a futile hope.
Very sincerely.
r Signed) Lucrktia T. Koss.
Supervising Nurse.
Later sent pictures of this building surrounded by water as it has been
for about a week. t m r>
Li. 1. ti.
Miss Ross. I sent the whole set of pictures showintr the builflinjr in
the water and the reflection of the buiklinofs m the watei-. ^A e called
it " the marine hospital." i i r n ■ \
^The secretary to the joint commission read the tollowin*;:)
DK!'.\r.TMi:NT OK TIIK I.NTKRIOK.
OiFicK oi Indian Akfaiks.
Wdshitit/tnii. Mnnh IS. /."/.■<.
Miss Lucrktia T. Ross.
IncUun t^cliooJ. Pons ford. Minn.
Madam: I wish to acknowledge the receii-t of >;''''; ';;'''''; ''^vl■^."''l.''^n
I have called on Suj.!. Howard to have hin. instru.-t Dr. Ball.m t-. ..h.se me lu
2174 MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS.
detail of the exact couditicns at Pine Point, with sncli reconiniendations as he
may nialve. On receii)! of this I'eport I will jiresent the entire matter to the
conunissionei'.
Very sinceiely.
(Signed) Joseph A. Mukphy,
Medical Sui)crrisor.
Senator Lank. Who was commissioner at this time?
Miss Ross. At tlie <;;me that Avas written? I think Mr. Abbott was
acting.
(The secretary to the joint commission read the following:)
r)f:paktment of the interior,
United States Indian Service,
ronsford. Miini.. March 28, 1913.
Dr. .TosEPH A. ^Mukphy,
Waslii Hilton. D. C.
(Through Maj. John R. Howard.)
Dear Sir: Your letter of March ISs aslcing information in regard to condi-
tions at Pine Point is received.
The numher of itupils under treatment for trachoma has been very limited
during most of the winter, owing to the small and irregular attendance at school,
but for the past two weeks has been increasing, until 30 pupils are under
tre^itment.
Several pupils have contracted trachoma during the year; and no precautions
have been taken against the spread of the disease in the school until last week.
Separate towel r.-icks have been ]u-ovided for the girls' dormitory, according to
my instructions given early in Novemlier. None, however, have been provided
for the boys' building.
Three pupils are under treatment for tuberculosis. Precautions against the
spread of this disease consist in rejecting pupils found to be suffering with
advanced active pulmonary tuberculosis or open suppurating glandular or
osseous tuberculosis lesions. Pupils are enrolled without the physician's exami-
nation.
There are no facilities for the treatment of adult Indians at the school. The
new building, which was reported ready for occupancy two weeks ago, was
found to be unfit for use as a temporary hospital and is now undergoing al-
terations. Its location is most undesirable, being in a low, marshy place where,
I am told, water stands several inches deep most of the spring and summer.
There are no trees near the building for shade or protection. The roof is made
of tar pai^er, which certainly is not sufiicient to resist the hail storms that are
not infrequent in this locality.
There is no conveyance provided for visiting and treating Indians at their
homes. Many Indians come to the office for assistance, but prescribing has to
be done on the symptoms recited by the ignorant parent or friend calling for
the medicine.
I submit the following recommendations: That all applicants for admittance
to the boarding school be submitted to the physician's examination before en-
rollment; that .separate towel racks be provided for the boys' building; that
milk and eggs for the incipient tuberculosis pupils be supplied according to
estimate sulmiitted some months ago : that a deep well be installed and surface
wells abandoned; that all buildings connected with the plant be screened; that
the hospital building be removed from its present insanitary location to a
position among the pines on the opposite side of the campus where it is dry,
placed on a suitable foundation, roofed, ceiled or plastered inside, and weather-
boarded outside: and that a team expressly for the physician's use be furnished.
Yours, very truly.
(Signed) .Tames L. Baelou.
Department of the Interior,
• United States Indian Industrial School,
Valentine, Ariz., April 30, I91S
Miss LucRETiA T. Ross.
Ponsfonl, Minn.
Dear Miss Ross: Your letter of April 19 is just received. I do not see why
you can not still accomplish a great deal of good at Ponsford. and will continue
MEDICAL SER\^CE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS. 2175
you there if tlie work would suffer should you be assignetl elsewhere I have
sent iu a report to the office on the matters reported by Dr. Ballou and your-
self with the comments which were made by Maj. Howard and others. I have
however, made some definite recommendations, and if the office directs that
these be carried out. I see no reason why things should not be very favorable to
the work there. Please keep me advised as to what you are doing weekly,
^'ery sincerely.
(Signed) .Joseph A. Mukphy,
Medical Supervisor.
Miss Ross. As you have heard, the report of the doctor shows that
the attendance had increased in the last two weeks — I had been tliere
that length of time— and that sanitation had improved. Thev beat
the brush and got the children in when I got there, fearing they
would be reported. Things went on in this way until about the 1st
of April, wdien Miss , a real pretty young mixed-
blood Indian girl, who had been acting as assistant matron tempo-
rarily at ^^Tiite Earth, was sent over to take the housework in the
new hospital. It was not ready for use; it could not be used. If you
will think of that structure being in a climate where it goes down to
40° below zero and stays that way for weeks at a time, and that you
have winter 11 months in the year, you can imagine how satisfactory
such a structure would be to put old, decrepit, helpless people in. I
asked for a flat boat or something to transport the patients from the
" marine hospital " over to the dining room.
Senator Lane. How deep was the water standing?
Miss Ross. I do not know; I wish you would call for that list of
pictures and just satisfy yourself.
Senator Lane. How Icng did it stand on the grounds?
Miss Ross. That was there at that time: I judge when we took the
pictures it had been there about 10 days.
The first of April Miss was sent there, as I have said, and
in about two or three days Mr. J. A. Xygren was appointed ])rincipal
and reported at '\^niite Earth.
Senator Lane. Principal of the school?
Miss Ross. He was sent there as principal of the school.
Senator Lane. How many students were there at that school i
Miss Ross. I judge at that time there must have been about 35.
possibly. I am only giving you an estimate.
Mr. Nygren was very energetic, and he tried to clean up the filth
and dirt' and to svstematize things, and I stood by him loyally. Dr.
Ballou stood by him loyally. He was a little indiscreet from the
very day he got there. He irot there in the morning. I think, and he
had Miss — in his office most of the afternoon: and. of cour.'^e.
with the reputation that Pine Point had already it made just a little
talk. ^Vlien he had been there about a week there was considerable
gossip. He would wrestle with Miss in the dmmg room in
the presence of people. One dav. I recall, she took his piece of pie
and ran out of the dining room with it. and he j limited from the
table and ran after her and chased her across the campus, and caught
her and shook her. and of cour.se they talked about it.
Senator Lane. Was pie scarce there? , i i •
Miss Ross. Yes. At niirht Miss stayed a good deal in
the office. I am not saving there was a particle of harm in tt. but it
was injudicious and indiscreet in view of the reputation that 1 ino
Point iiad acquired under tlie two previous principals. There wa?
2176 MEDICAL SERVICE, BUHEAU INDIAjS' AFFAIRS.
an employee at the school as laundress — INIr. Chairman, I am going
to ask that the names of these women that I mention be not put down
in the report.
Senator La>;e. Very well; their names will be left blank. The
reporter will take them, however, for reference.
Miss Boss. There was an employee at the school — the lamidress,
Mrs. . She was a Sioux Indian. It seemed from what
I heard that during the winter she and the policeman — husband of
the teacher — had been quite intimate, and there had been a great deal
of gossip and trouble around there. I Imew nothing of it.
Mr. Nygren came in to me one morning when I was treating the
patients, and he said that the night before he had had Mrs.
and Mr. Daydodge together and talked with them about the wrong
of doing that kind of thing and bringing disgrace upon the school,
and they had promised never to do another thing that could be criti-
cized. He said he did not know Avhy, but he felt constrained to go
out on the campus about half an hour later, and ran right into them,
about 11 o'clock, where they had a meeting. He came and told me
about it. and I said : " JSIr. Nygren. as your friend. I am going to
tell you something. That lady has not a good reputation, and do
be ver}^ careful. Do not give her any chance at all to call your name
into anything."
About three days later I was treating the patients in the afternoon
in the treating room, which just adjoined the office, and somebody
was singing in the office. Thei'e was a man and a wonum. and the
door Avas open — somebody went through and went in and left it
open — and Mrs. was sitting on Mr. Nygren's desk, swinging
her feet and singing, and Mr. Xygren sat here [indicating], and that
went on, I think, for 15 or 20 minutes. A day or two later Mr.
Nygren, Mrs. . and Miss came into the dining room —
the public dining room — and were seated for dinner, and during the
progress of the meal the butter gave out. ISIr. Nygren reached over
to Mrs. 's plate and took her butter. She was seated here [indi-
cating], he there, and I here. She reached ovei" and gral)bed his
bread, and scraped the butter off. and put it in her mouth, and that
caused quite a little comment.
A short time later — I beg your pardon, ladies and gentlemen, for
retailing such stuff as this, for it is dreadful, but it is made use of
later. Just two or three days later, one evening, the matron, whose
room adjoined mine, was going out to develop some pictures, and
ISIiss came over and asked to write some letters in her room.
She said all right. Miss ■ went over to the doctor's to develop
pictures, and there were guests in the other room that talked and
laughed and were having a good time. When it was pretty nearly 10
o'clock and time for me to go to bed, I went down stairs to get a
pitcher of water, and the door was slightly ajar, and I saw it was Mr.
Nygent and Miss . I did not say one word. I got my water,
went on, and v.ent to bed. They both left in a very few minutes.
The next day Miss came into my room and asked me if I
knew that Mr. Nygent Avas in her room the night before, and I said
yes. She said that she saw an ink spot on her talile. and asked
Miss how it got there, and she said Mr. Nygren upset the ink.
She was Aery indignant, and said. " I Avill not tolerate that." So she
MEDICAL SEEVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS. 2177
went to Mr. Xygent and told him not to ever again make her room a
meeting place. She also went to Miss and told her She told
her, " 1 Gil will get a bad reputation if you do it," and Miss
said, '^ I don't care at all ; he is the candy kid."
After this Dr. Ballon, one of his be"st friends, went to him pri-
vately and warned him to be discreet. He said, " The Indians and
whites on the reservation are criticizing you. Be discreet and care-
ful."
About :May 1 Mrs. , who had been the matron at tlie
school the year before, returned. One day Ave were doing an opera-
tion, a very critical one, on an eye. Dr. Ballon and myselt when Mr.
Nygren and Miss went tearing through the operating room
into the office and had a violent quarrel. I never heard anvthing like
•it ; it was dreadful. AVe heard it, both of us, and the patient hea'i-d it,
and the patient's sister, who sat there, heard it. We neither of us
knew what the cause was. We both heard her say, " Whv didn't you
let me go v.'hen I wanted to? You hung around me then and would
not let me go." We neither of us knew what it was about, and neitlier
of us mentioned that.
In the afternoon Mr. Xygren came to my room and ask'ed me if
I had heard that, and I said yes. And I said, " Mr. Xygren, be
careful. That does not reflect credit upon you for any woman to
talk to you that way." Afterwards he went to see Dr. BaHoii and
asked him if he had heard it, and the doctor said yes. The doctor
went over that afternoon to his office and begged him to be careful
and not do anything that would cause trouble.
All this had taken place when Mr. Xygren had been at the school
about six weeks. There came up another very, very painful thing.
It seemed that Mrs. went to Mr. Xygren one morning — she
was mess manager — and reproved him for being late at his meals.
She said the cook would not stay if he did not come on time. lie
flew mad and said that Miss Ross or Dr. Ballon had put her up to
that. She protested that he had not. We spoke to Mr. Xygren
about it. She told the doctor, and we called Mr. Xygren in and
talked to him. I did not believe it and neither did the doctor, but
Mr. Xygren said yes, he said that.
The next day I heard, just on the campus, a voice say, " If you
don't watch out vou will get tarred and feathered, and run off the
grounds, just as Mr. Xygren wants to do with Dr. Ballon and Miss
Ross." I stepped to my window and said, Mrs. , I heard what
you said. What did you mean by that?" She said yes she said that.
I said, " That is all iNvanted to ask of you." I knew who it was she
spoke to. I went down to Allen Shepherd's room and I said, " Mr.
Shepherd, I am going to ask you a question. Just, please, answer
yes or no. Did you hear Mr. Xygren recommend or suggest that
Dr. Ballon and 1 should be tarred and feathered, and run off the
grounds?" and he said "yes." I said, "Are you two people the only
ones that heard it?" He said, " Xo; he said it before
and a clerk or laborer."
Even then I went and told the doctor about it, but we said noth-
ing. We were amazed beyond words. We had been loyal to the
letter to him, and could not realize why it should be done.
That afternoon Mrs. lightly threw that \ip to me. I was
going downstairs. She said, "Is that you, Miss Ross? I thought
2178 MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS.
maybe you would be tarred and feathered by this time.'* And Mr.
Nygren came running through the hall — I was looking over the
bannisters — and grabbed her by the arm, and I ne\er heard such a
row. I never heard anything like it. Not only invself and every
employee around there. l)ut two Indians who wen' standing on the
piazza heard it, and I heard her swear at him and tell him not to
get so smart, that he was not taking up Miss \s dress at that
time and taking her garters off, and a lot more stuff. She said,
" You are not smoking with us now. Don't get so smart.'*
I was horror stricken. I never dreamed such a thing could hap-
pen. I went over to the doctor's house and sat down. Before that,
I will say that Mr. Nygren, when she said that to him, never re-
turned a word. lie went out of that oflice and went out and sat on
the stile, and there he sat.
I went over to the doctor*s oflice and I said, '' In spite of every-
thing there is a scandle here.*" and I called over to
me and I said, " What did you mean by saying such a dreadfid
thing to Mr. Nygren?" She said, "It is the truth, and everybody
here knows it." I am under oath, and I say that is the first time I had
ever heard tell of that.
I wrote a little note to Maj. Howard, superintendent of the res-
ervation, the next morning, and just simply said to him: "A scandal
similar to that of last year is receiving comment at this school. As
the superintendent, I feel that you should know it, in order to save
the civil service any further disgrace at this place." And I signed
my name. I heard nothing whatever from that, and the conditions
went right on. Different employees would throw that same thing
up to the superintendent.
In June got sick, and I took her over to White
Earth to the hospital. Mr. Nygren refused to allow her to go when
the doctor pleaded to have her taken. I was to go East, and the
woman would die without care — it was pneumonia. And with six
Government horses on the ground doing nothing and two Govern-
ment wagons — that is, road wagons — Mr. Nygren absolutely refused
to allow a conveyance to be taken to take that desperately sick woman
to the hospital. I finally hired a team
Senator Lane. Would it be Mr. Nygren's place or the superin-
tendent's ?
Miss Ross. Mr. Nygren was in charge of that work, and when the
doctor made a requisition he should have immediately done as he
was asked.
Senator Lane. Was there a requisition made for a team for the
doctor ?
Miss Ross. Yes, sir ; the doctor went to him time and again, and he
said to him, " You go and hire a team, if you want to." I hired the
team and started with that desperately sick woman to the hospital.
When we had gone halfway I had to stop and take her out and let
her lie down on the side of the road under a bush and give here a
hypodermic, and I gave her whisky, and I thought " Certainly you
are going to die here." But I went on with her. After a while she
) ecovered somewhat, and I got her in the wagon and we started on.
When we were within 3 miles of White Earth she turned and said,
'' I can go no farther," and I had to get her out on the ground again ;
irnd I thought she would certainly die that time.
MEDICAL SERVICE, BUKEAU INDIAN AFFAIRS. 2179
When I got her to the hospital at White Earth I was denied ad-
mission. They said she was having hemorrhages and she conkl not
be admitted there. I said, "What shall I do? Shall I take this
woman back? " They said she could not be admitted there. I said,
" This hospital w^as put up at a cost of $25,000 for tuberculous In-
dians on this reservation. Why can't she be admitted? " They said,
"Because it is contagious, and they have decided they won't take
anything contagious."
Senator Lane. How many miles did you travel in the wagon ?
Miss Ross. I drove here 35 miles in the wagon. It happened. that
Dr. J. N. Alley, superintendent of the National Tuberculosis Hospi-
tal at Fort Lapwai, Idaho, was visiting there. It just happened so,
and I went to him and I went to Dr. Janney — Dr. Guitard was in
charge and had refused me admission — and I said, " Something must
be done." So they said after a while that I could let her stay all
night, but she would have to be removed in the morning. Then I
went to Dr. Alley and I said, " If this woman must be removed, you
will have to take her to Fort Lapwai with you." The three doctors
went up to examine her to see whether or not she could go to Fort
Lapw^ai, and tlie}^ came down anii Dr. Alley said to me she would
not live to get her as far as the station, 5 miles, and he doubted
very much whether she would live through the night. One lung
was completely flooded, and the heart was put to a tremendous strain,
and she simply was having heart failure. They could not turn her
out, and I stayed until she began to improve a bit. Then I went
back to White Earth — I was going East. While I was there
told this smoking and garter tale that she had thrown up
to the principal.
Senator Lane. This was the same woman?
Miss Ross. This was the same woman.
When I got back to Pine Point I received a letter from Maj.
Howard in response to my letter to him notifying him that a scan-
dal was there a month before, and he asked me please to give him
detailed information on which he could base an investigation. That
very day I went to each individual employee on the grounds and
said, " The major has asked me to send him a little statement. Have
you heard of any scandal here? " "Yes." "Will you make a little
statement, please?" Each employee made a little statement, and I
sent that to the major in the return mail. I never heard anything
from it.
I went East the 1st of July, and about the middle of July
sent an affidavit to me in regard to the thing. In August
I returned to White Earth Reservation. I went over to Pine Point
to get some supplies I had left there and was told that
, the assistant laundress— I beg your pardon, ladies and gen-
tlemen, for mentioning these things to you— that ; , a
full-blood Indian girl, 18 years of age, had produced an abortion in
her own room at the employees' quarters, that she had cxintracted
blood poisoning following it and had to be taken into the scliool
building and be operated upon to save her life; that she was then
suffering from an acute attack of syphilis, and that she made tlie
statement to the doctor and the nurse that she contracted both
troubles right there on the school grounds.
2180 MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS.
In September 1 was told that had gone to the doctor
for an examination, and he had discovered that she was several
months pregnant, and nrged her to resign, and she did so, to take
effect the 1st of October.
In October Miss married. She married a yonng man whom
she hud met less than a month previous. They had to drive about
30 miles before they could get married, and half vvay that distance
the father of the groom — the rector of the Episcopal church — called
them up. That is, he called up the half-way house and had them
stopped when they got there and begged his son not to marry the
girl; that it was reported she was pregnant, and they called the
doctor 15 miles to make an examination, and he made an examina-
tion and begged them not to get married then, to wait a while and
let nature tell its own story. He told me he said, " She will be a
mother.'"
Mrs. , the teacher, had in the meantime resigned. She had
contemplated doing so for six months. Maj. Howard recommended
the reinstatement of , who had resigned because of
illegitimate pregnancy, and he also recommended the reinstatement
of . I here submit exhibit No. 4 in proof of my state-
ments.
I beg your pardon; I have missed one. Mr. Sells accuses me of
maliciously trying to assassinate the character of Mr. Nygren.
He says that I wrote a letter to my chief and sustained Mr. Nygren,
and that when I heard of his wanting us to be tarred and feathered
I tried in revenge to ruin the man, which is very Avrong. This is the
letter, exhibit No. 5, to which Mr. Sells refers :
(The secretary to the joint commission read as follows:)
Kx 11 1 BIT JSo. 4.
i>kpartment of the interior,
United States Indian Service,
Ponsford, Minn., May 6, 1913.
Dr. Joseph A. Mukphy,
Denver, Colo.
Dear Sir: Your letter of April 30 is just received, aud iu accordance with
your instructions will report weekly on my work at this place. There is no end
to the work needed in this locality, hut every move is uphill and iu the face of
opposition, so that little is accomplished.
Mr. J. A. Nygren has heen appointed principal at this place, and the farmer
who has served iu that capacity all winter has been relieved from the school
work. Mr. Nygren is cooperating with Dr. Ballou and allows him the use of
one of the rooms upstairs for patients who come here for treatment.
We have at present six patients; two are totally blind, and the others are in
bad shape. One case was operated for cataract last week and is doing very
well, considering the fact that he is above 90 years of age.
To-day we did an iridectomy on an old woman above 90 years old. I think it
1.5 a success.
One patient, female, is under treatment for mitral and aortic regurgitation.
She has poor vision, dne to double pterygium, which will be removed in a short
time. It is quite a task to care for cases such as these, but the matron and
new field matron render all the assistance needed, and the work goes along very
nicely.
Under Dr. Nygren the school is taking on new life; 40 children are in attend-
ance, all of whom are under daily treatment for trachoma, and about 15 are
getting cod-liver oil three times a day. I have weighed all the children twice
since I returned here and have taken the temperatures twice a day for a week
each month.
MEDICAL SEEVICE, BUREAU INDIAN APFAIRS. 2181
A few of the children have gained in weight during the month, but all who
have run a high temperature have lost in weight. Two boys lost 4 pounds each
during the month, and yet I am unable to Iveep the children who are running
high temperatures and losing in weight from being detailed to work in the
laundry.
The matron, who was sent here last December, tells me that at White Earth
Maj. Howard instructed her to assist Dr. Ballou in every way si.e could, but
when she got to Pine Point Mr. Ellis told her that she was not to assist Dr.
Ballou in any way whate\er; that Maj. Howard had left explicit orders in
regard to that. She says that Mrs. Fowler was kept here during the time of
her vacation to watch her and see that she did not assist the doctor. That
explains many of the difficulties here. Miss Higley has cooperated in every way
possible and renders very efficient service since Mr. Nygren came here. Is'o
team has been allowed the doctor thus far, ;.nd when Mr. iNygren came here he
was told by Mr. Ellis not to allow Dr. Ballou to use the school team.
Several adult Indians have asked to come in for operations, and we hope to
do more in the next mouth than we have done thus far.
Very sincerely.
(Signed) Lucretia T. Koss,
Supervising Nurse.
Miss Eoss. Now, I had made this statement that Maj. Howard
recommended the reinstatement of these two women that he knew
were immoral. Mr. Sells in his letter to me says, " Knowing as you
did the immoral character of that woman, when Mr. Nygren asked
her resignation you came to her rescue, though you knew so much
about it."' I now submit the resignations of these two women, with
my notations thereon. I said, and emphatically say, I never did
such a thing.
(The secretary to the joint commission read as follows:)
Exhibit No. 6.
Pine Point Boarding School,
Ponsford, Minn., September 9, 19 IS.
Maj. John R. Howard,
White Earth Agency, White Earth, Minn.
Dear Sir: I hereby tender my resignation as laundress at the Pine Point
Boarding School to take effect the 30th of September, 1913.
Very respectfully,
( S igned )
Respectfully forwarded to the Commissioner of Indi.in Affairs with the rec-
ommendation that this resignation be accepted and that should Mrs.
care to reenter the service at some future time that her app1ic:itlon for
reinstatement bo given consideration. I have no one to recommend at the
present time to succeed Mrs. in the position of laundress at the Pine
Point School.
Very respectfully,
(Signed) John R. Howard.
Superintendent.
This case is referred to as Exhibit C in the letter which I sent to :\rr. Brosius
November 7. 1013.
The m;>jor recommended this vile woman for reinstatement, fully aware of
the f;'ct that she was Imving to resign to give birth to an !Hogitinvit<^ child.
These characters are the example that has been afforded the full-blood Indians
at Pine Point and will agfin drag down a dPgr.'ded people just as soon as
nature will allow her to return to the service. In the name of decency I protest
against the Indian Service being made a dumping place for immoral characters.
Lucretia T. Ross.
35001— PT. 16—14 2
2182 MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS.
Pine Point Boarding School,
Pousford. Minn., 8cjitcinber 15, 1913.
Hon. COMMISSIONEK OF INDIAN AFFAIRS.
Washington, D. C.
(Tliroujrli M:i.i. John K. Howard, sui>ei'inteudeiit, White Earth Agency.)
Sib: I hereby tender luy resignation as teacher at the Pine Point School to
take effect Septeail»er 30. 1913.
Very respectfully,
( Signed )
Respectfully forwarded to the Coniiuissioner of Indian Affairs with the rec-
ommendation that same be accepted, and should Mrs. at any time
in the future nialve application for reinstatement in the service I recommend
that her application be given consideration. I have no one to recommend as a"
successor to Mrs. , and I request tliat the vacancy be filled immediately
by your ofHce.
Respectfully,
(Signed) John R. Howard,
Supciintcndent.
Three years ago (white, 35 ye.irs) was employetl as teacher
at Pine Point. She was accused of gross innnorality with one of the pupils,
Charles Daydodge. T'he situation w;is so scandalous that she was forced to
resign. Afterwards the boy married her.
A year later Louis Page, principal, recommended her reinstatement and she
was again employed as the teacher. As a teacher she is an absolute failure,
and every Indian on the reservation knows her as a degraded woman. This
white woman is recommended for reinstatement by Maj. Howard.
Senator Lane. Did you send that in to Mr. Sells?
Miss Ross. No; all in the world that I did, in writing a letter to
Mr. Brosius I mentioned the fact that they were recommended and
asked him to look it up.
Senator Lane. This note was put on
Miss Ross. In my letter to Mr. Brosius. Let me say right here
that when that resignation went in the financial clerk in the office,
or one of the head clerks in the office. Miss , Avas present, and
she begged Maj. Howard not to recommend that woman again and
told him why, and he said she was no worse than any other Indian.
The assistant superintendent was there, and he heard it. And when
Special Agent Christie went there they were put under oath, and
they both told that. And yet Mr. Sells in his letter to me takes up
that fact and says, "You say that afterwards I^laj. Howard was
asked not to recommend her, and it is not the truth."
He said he had nobody to recommend as Mrs. successor,
and so he appointed Mrs. to the position of laundress
in the school. had been the children's cook at the
school the j^ear before and was accused of contributing to the delin-
quency of girls in the village and was asked to resign because of
pregnancy, and her illegitimate child was born about four months
after she" left the school, and Maj. Howard filled the appointment
vacated by by this woman. At the same time she was
living with the man that was acting as disciplinarian at Pine Point
in open adultery.
Senator Lane. At the time she was appointed ?
Miss Ross. Yes.
Senator Lane. When did this happen?
Miss Ross. That all happened last October and November. In
October I sent these papers to Mr. Lovett, who was coming to Wash-
ington. He was the assistant superintendent. I said, " Hand them
to Mr. Sells. He will certainly give tjie fidl-blood Indians some
MEDICAL SEKVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS. 2183
Letter example than tluit " They did not reach Mr. Lovett until
after Ins return to White Earth, and they were returned to me a-ain.
And I thought "I wonder if it will ever be possible to give tlu^se
poor souls anythmg better than that." So, November 7 I rolled up
the roll of papers, and I wrote a letter accompanving them and T
sent them to the Indian Bights' Association, to J^Ir. lii-osius! an<l I
asked him, VV ill you take these to the commissioner? It is the last
desperate way to remedy these awful conditions, and I hope that
humanity and not political expediency will i)revail in this case "
I hereby offer Exhibit No. 5. Now. these statements from the
employees that I had sent the major in June preceding ai-e here.
(The secretary to the joint commission read as follows:)
Exhibit No. 5.
\ovi:m]!i:r 11. Ifn.S
Hon. Cato Sells,
Commissioner of Indian Affairs.
My Dear Commissioner: In regju'd to the statements wliicli I made t<» you
on yesterday affecting the management of the White Earth Indian Agency,
Minn., I will state referred to alleged conditions at Pine Point Indian School!
which, is under the care of the superintendent of White Earth.
I am citing herein statements contained in a letter dated Novemher 7, lOlS,
received from Mrs. Lncretia T. Ross, sniiervising nurse. Ignited States indian
Service. I also inclose signed statements and affidavits referred to as exhibits
numbered from A to G, inclusive. The statements given herein, both by Mrs.
Ross find myself, are based upon information and belief only and submiited to
you for investigation with a desire for the bettei-ment of conditions in the
Indian Service.
Miss Ross says :
" N. B. Hurr was principal at Pine Point three years ago and while acting In
that capacity took a white prostitute into his home and lived with her. his wife
meanwhile living in adultery with any man who jiresented himself, lying out
with several of tlse boy pupils at a time. lie and his wife w(M'e divorced finally,
and he m:irried the prostitute with whom he had been living.
■' Hurr w;is succeeded by I^ouis Page as jtrincipal, and was accused of adultery
with the matron, Mrs. . One .year ago Page left the school with
her and lived with her for quite a while; afterwards went back to live with his
wife and little child.
"After P;\tre left the school (vdiich haj)i>ened while I was there), C. .M. Ellis,
expert farmer, acted as principal during the winter of W12-1H, ;iiid during that
time the school was a hotbed of gambling and other vices. Tbe boys, large and
small, with Indians from the village, opeidy beat the tombe and gambled in the
school building day and n.ight.
"They put out their money and gambled without fear m- hindrance in the
room adjoining the office of the principal. So pernicious did it become th;it
Rev. George Smith, full-blood Indian, went to Dr. .lames Palbui and asked him
to use his influence to have the gambling in the school building discoid iiined.
"In April, 1913, J. A. Nygren was apijointed iirinci]ial at Pine Point. I have
marked the inclosed papers Exhibits A, B. etc., and will refer to tbem in
that way.
"Remember that I secured these papers at the request of Mj]. Ilowanl. sent
them to him. and expected that he would lake some action."
Exiimrr A.
dlpartmknt ok tmk intkkiok.
United States Indian Service. White Earth ,\oen(y.
U7//7r I'Jarih, Minn.. Jiinr ^t. nn.i.
Mrs. Lucretia C. Ross,
Supervising Nurse. United Stales Indian Srrrirr.
Ponsford. Minn.
Dear Madam: Your favor of recent date, informing me "tliat a scandal of
the same type as that of last year is receiving a great deal of cnniment nt this
2184 MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS.
school " was the day followinj; its receipt at this office forwardeil to J. A.
Nygren, principal of the Pine Point School, with request that he make a thor-
ough investigation of this and forward rue a report with return of inclosures.
Air. Xygren in his report states that he has no knowledge of a scandal tran-
spiring at the Pine Point Boarding School.
Will you please give me more detailed information as to the matter or matters
referred to in your letter, to enable me to give this a personal investigation?
Very respectfully,
(Signed) John R. Howard,
Supt. and Spl. Dish. Agent.
" 'A scandal of the same type as that last year ' would menu thnt the ]>rincipal
and matron were accused of improper conduct, yet Maj. Howard sent my letter
to the principal for investigation — set the man to investig;'te his own conduct.
After a month has elapsed he asks me to send him detailed information. All
this time he was only 35 miles away and could have reached the place in one
day."
Exhibit B.
Letter accompanying statement from employees, sent to Maj. Howard :
Department of the Interior,
United States Indian Service.
Poufiford, Minn., June 25, 1913.
Maj. John R. Howard.
White Earth, Minn.
Dear Sir: I have your letter of June 21. relative to the letter which I wrote
to you some time ago in which I told ,vou that a scandal of the same type as that
of last year was receiving a great deal of comment at this school.
You say you forwarded my letter to Mr. Nygreu with a request that he make
an investigation and report to you, and that he reports th-it he has no knowledge
of a scandal transpiring at the Pine Point Boarding School.
As you ask for more detailed information, I am sending to you the inclosed
statements.
Mrs. , who was matron at this school last year is leaving Pons-
ford for Oneida, Wis., tomorrow.
Mrs. is leaving for a couple of months at the same time, so I am
sending you their statements.
I gre;"'tly regret that this unfortunate state of affairs exi.sts, J)ut felt that you
should know it in time to save the service any further scandal at this place.
Very respectfully,
(Signed) Lucretia T. Ross.
Supervising Nurse.
Exhibit C.
Sworn statement of , laundress of Pine Point School.
Department of the Interior,
United States Indian Service,
Ponsford, Minn., July I'l, 1911.
Statement of Mrs. regarding the conduct of J. A. Nygren of
the Pine Point School.
One Wednesday morning in May one of my laundry boys and myself took a
basket of clothes to the girls' building and as we wont upstairs I called to the
girls and asked where Miss was, and Mr. Nygren answered from her
room and s;;id, " Oh, come in and behave yourself." I excused the boy and went
in. Mr. Nygren was sitting on Miss bed and she was standing by the
table. She told me to sit down and I sat on her trunk, and we visited quite a
while, and he snid, " AYell, I will have to go and take care of the mail for it is
mail time," and then he said to me, " Mrs. , you better get to work,"
and .so I said, "No; you have been visiting quite a while and I am going to
visit now," and then he took me b.v the arm and pulhxl me out of the room, and
then he told Miss to go to work, and she refused, and then I heard them
scuIHing and I saw him push her out of the room. He then came out, helped
MEDICAL SERVICE, BUKEAU INDIAN AFFAIRS. 2185
me to carry the basket of clotlies to the clothing room. All the time Miss
was picking at him. In tlie clothing room tliey got to wrestling, and lie said,
" If you don't leave me alone I will unclasp your supporters." but she kejit
teasing him anyway, and he crawled under the table and caught lier and threw
her on tlie table where they kept some blankets, and then lie pulled up her
dress and unclasped her supporters. She got off the tuble and R:\id, "Oh, you
dirty, nasty thing." All this time I was sitting on a box watcliiug them, and I
said, "Weil, I'm going to get out of here," and then lie said, "Why didn't you
help me, Mrs. ?" and tried to push me over and Miss tried to pull
tiim away, and he grabbed her and threw her on my lap, then I pushed her
away, took my basket, and went out, Mr. Nygren following me, and he lieljjed
me to carry the basket to the bmndry.
One Saturday in May I went to Miss "s room. Mr. Nygren was there
lounging on the bed smoking a pipe and she was sitting on the table. Presently
j^ljgg aslvcd Mr. Nygren to let her smoke liis pipe, and he snid, "Oh, no,
girlie you don't want to smoke my pipe," but she insisted that .she did. Mr.
NY"ren said I had seme cig^irette papers in my room and for me to go and get
them T v^•ent for them and when I returned Miss took the tobacco from
Mr Nvren and made a cigarette and gave the tobacco to me and I made one;
then we li<^hted them and smoked. About the time we had finished smoking the
dinner bell rang and Mr. Nygren suggested that we return after dinuM- for
another "dessert," meaning a cigarette. The next morning (Sunday) I went to
Miss — 's room again and found Mr. Nygren and Mrs. ■ there. Mr.
Nygren lav on the bed smoking a pipe, and he gave us tobacco for cigarettes.
Miss '— and I rolled ours, but as Mrs. did not know how Mr.
Nvgren rolled one for her and we all smoked.
(Signed) •
Subscribed and sworn to before me. a notary public for Keeker County.
Minn. My commission expires September 24, 191^^.^^^^^ j ^^ ^^^^_
"This woman was divorced by her husband for immorality two years ago.
and her conduct at the school has been immoral in the extreme. /;>'^^ ;1;""\ .
ately enticed CO diaries Daydodge. policeman at the school and husband of
^^"(The^teacher was dismissed because of immorality two years before but
afterwards married the boy, who was her pupil, and at the request of Louis
Page she was employed again as teacher at the school.) ^f.n„d-,l-
" In April and May, 1913, Mrs. and Mrs. lad tbe most scana.i
ous quarrels out on the campus in the hearing of the pupils and employees, m
which the called each other vile names. ^,. . ,„^„ «?i,« is now living
» -vr,.,, resigned from the service October 1, 1913. She is no^^ umii,,
carefvn ii his relations with her. He deliberately chose her intimate soc.etj
and told her that I had warned him to be careful.
Exhibit D.
Statement from Dr. Ballon, who in friendship urged Mr. Nygren to be dis-
creet, as the Indians and whites were criticizing him :
Dkpartment ok tiik Intkuiok,
United States Indian Skkvk'e,
Ponsford, ^Ji^ln., June ^'>, lOJS.
To whom it may concern: ^^^ ^,^^^ ^^,^,^.
Soon after Mr. J. A. Nygren ^«"f ^f^ th^Ime T' t ^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^
Sir rSd^?lim^i^Vl^^^tS;S about the o.Uce; tliat I was kept bus.
-T^^x:^ told Mr Nf--^'",.;-;,!;;- -;.^;;--;;.;;^';.;^;t:;u!;r^^^
Nygren to be careful.
2186 MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS.
One day, while doing a very delicate operation on an eye, Mr. Nygren and
Miss went tlirongh the operating room into the office, which was ad-
joining. There they had quite a violent argument, in which I heard Miss
'■ — say, " Why didn't you let me go when I wanted to ; then you hung
around me and would not let me go."
I have heard numerous reports from the school employees and also from
those who are not connected with the school regarding Mr. Nygren and Miss
-, but have discouraged it as much as I could.
(Signed) James L. Ballou, M. D.,
Agency Physician.
Exhibit E.
Statement of Mrs. , former matron at Pine Point School.
Department of thk Interior,
United States Indian Service,
Ponsford, Minn., June 2Jf, 1913.
To whom it may concern:
This is to certify that one Sunday morning in May Miss
invited me to her room, and I went.
Mr. Nygren came in pre.sently, and afterward Mrs. ■ — -, Mr. Nygren lay
on Miss 's bed, and during the course of our conversation he gave us
tobacco for cigarettes.
Mrs. and ]Miss rolled theirs, but as I did not know how to roll
a cigarette, Mr. Nygren rolled one for me; we then smoked them together.
Miss told me that one day Mr. Nygren and Mrs. put her on
n pile of blankets and ]Mr. Nygren raised her dress and unfastened her sup-
porters. She said she was angry and Mr. Nygren afterward apologized for it.
This is a matter of public comment at this school and in this vicinity.
(Signed)
" This woman was accused of adultery with Louis Page, principal, a few
months previous to this time, and when she left the school went and lived with
Page as his wife.
" Mr. Nygren knew all this and deliberately sought her society."
Exhibit F.
♦
Statement of Mrs. , former seamstress, now matron of school.
An Oneida Indian of good reputation. The matron, a white woman who has
recently transferred to Greenwood, S. Dak.
Department of the Interior,
United States Indian Service,
Ponsford, Minn., June 25, 1913.
To whom it may concern:
This is to certify tliat I and my detail of girls.
and , were at work in the sewing room one morning
in May. In the dormitory adjoining were Mrs. , Miss , and Mi'.
Nygren.
Mr. Nygren and Miss were scutlling and the sewing-room girls went
to the door and looked at them. I told the girls to close the dooi% and then
Mr. Nygren and Miss scuffled along to the clothing room.
We did not hear anything further until Mrs. said, "I am going to
get out of here." They both followed her as she went out, and Miss
said, "Oh, you dirty thing!" Then Mr. Nygren said to Mrs. , "Why
didn't you help me? "
Mr. Nygren and IMiss ^ — then laughed and scutlled in the dormitory for a
short time, after which Mrs. and Mr. Nygren went down to the laundry.
I have heard it commented upon at the school that Miss was fre-
quently in the office and that Mr. Nygren was often in her room.
MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS. 2187
I have also heard that Mr. Nygren lay on the betl in Miss 's room, ami
that he smoked cigarettes with Mrs. , Mrs. . and
Miss . Have also heard It reported that Mr. Nygren one day put Miss
on a pile of blankets and unfastened her hose supporters.
(Signed) ,
Seamfitrcfis. Pine Point hnJian S'cltool.
Exhibit G.
Department of the Intekior.
United States Indian Service,
Ponsford, Minn., June 27, 1913.
To irhom it may concern:
ATr. J. A. Nygren entered on duty as principal of the Pine Point School the
first week in April, and in less than two weeks was criticized hy oini>loyees
and others because of his conduct with Miss , such ;is wrestliuf? in the
dinini? room and on the campus, and keepln.ff her in the olFice a ijreat deal of
the time.
One night after 11 o'clock Miss Ross called me and said tliiit some man was
watching Mr. Nygren's office. I dressed and went down to the office to tell hin\.
and found Miss there with him. I told him that he was being watched
and then went back to my room.
A short time later he escorted Miss to the building where she was in
charge of the girls.
About the same time Miss came to my room to write letters, and I
was going out for a while in the evening; she remained, but when I returned
she had gone to her building. The next day I learned that Mr. Nygren had
spent the time in my room with her.
I explained to jNIr. Nygren and also to Miss that I would not have any
more company nor meetings of any kind in my room, as T did not want my
name associated with any talk that might follow.
I have heard the comments relative to Mr. Nygren raising INIiss 's dress
and unfastening her hose supporters, also that he spent a Sunday morning
smoking with her and Mrs. and Mrs. .
(Signed) ,
Matron Pine Point Indian School.
" was detailed as assistant matron at the school in April. ir)i:>;
she is a mixed-blood Indian, 23 years old, and is of very unsavory reimtation.
She was in the office with Mr. Nygren almost day and night. My room while
at the school was over the oflice, and at night they would wrestle until it
seemed they would knock things to pieces.
"The first week in Otcober. 1013, she was married to a young man whom
she had known less than a month. The day of the marriage her husband was
told that she was reported pregnant: he sent for a physician and tb(>y de-
manded an examination. She will be a mother in the course of a few m.ailhs.
" All this is known to the pupils as well as the adult Indians.
.' , assistant laundress at Pine Vomt Sc-hool. full-blood Imlian.
IS years of as-e, produced an abortion in her room at tlie employees' liuilding
in August, 1913; she had blood poisoning following it and was tak(>n into the
school' building for an operation to save her life. At the same tune she w.-is
suffering from an acute attack of syphilis.
" She later resigned from the school, ,•,,...
<« the present laundress at the Pine Point School, was < hil.lien s
cook at that place last vear: she was .accused of contributing to the delinquency
of girls in the village and was dismissed because of pregnancy. Her illegiti-
mate child was born in a short time afterwards. .
"She is a low, immoral woman and is accused of livnig in adulteix with
the nrn who i-^ acting as disciplinarian at the school now.
"This is the moral atmosphere that is furnished the full-blood Indians at
Pine Point bv the United sJates Indian Servi<-e. The people of that section
are low and immoral, drunken, and debauched in every way.
"They are blinded and fearfully afflicted with trachoma, and th.- n.vag.'s ..f
tubercuiosis is carrying them off rapidly.
2188 MEDICAl. SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS.
" lu the name of coiniiion Innnaiiity let lis arouse and seek to give tlieni a
better exami'le. give them a chance to become something better than the In-
dian Service has thus far given them.
"I am sine that Mr. Sells will do all in his power to remedy this condition
when he knows of it."
Trusting that the foregoing will receive your early and very careful con-
sideration,
Very cordially,
(Signed) S. M. Brosius,
Agent Indian liighU Association.
Miss Ross. I wish to snv right now that T hope you noted in every
one of those statements that they recounted that garter episode and
the smoking. Mr. Sells says that was never suhmitted to l^Taj. How-
ard and he never knew of it, and that I did it to assassinate a man's
character.
Senator LaiNf,. These statements were submitied, however, to Maj.
Howard ?
Miss Ross. Every one of them but the one that sent. She
was a patient in the hosnital and told it there. She sent it forward,
and every employee that made the statement told that they had heard
the same thing. I never had heard it in my life until I had heard it
in that quarrel the night before I notified the major.
Senator Lane. It seemed to be, then, you think, a matter of
common rumor?
Miss Ross. Oh. the statements, I think, certainly indicated that it
was. They all said they had heard it.
On the receipt of these communications by Mr. Sells he suspended
Mr. Nygren as principal and sent Special Agent Christie to White
Earth to make an investigation. Mr. Christie went to White Earth
and went to Maj. Howard's home as his guest. He thereby disquali-
fied himself for making an impartial examination, and the Indian
Service rules expressly prohibit such a thing.
April 18 I received a letter from Mr. Sells, and I offer it as
Exhibit 7.
(The secretary to the joint commission read as follows:)
Dkpartmknt ok the Tntkrior.
Office of Indi.\n Affairs,
Washington, Aptil .18, JDl'i.
Aliss TjUCRktia T. Kosn,
Salt Lake City, Utah.
Madam: Thorough consideration has bei>n given to your charges against Mr.
J. A. Nygren, the principal of the Pine Foint Seh(X)!. A very full and conii)lete
investigation was made by Special Agent Christie, and it api^vears fr-nn the
report and the evidence secured that Mv. Nygren was not guilty of any moral
turpitude or v.-rongdoing, as charged by yon.
It appears that about May 24. 1913, Mr. Nygren had a dispute with Mrs;
, who was then mess manager. Mrs. called him to task for
arriving late at his meals. He remarked to Mrs. that he sujiposed ."Miss
Ross and Dr. Ballou had put her up to making the complaint, and later said to
the carpenter, with whom he was working, that persons who interfered with
liim in his efforts to clean nj) Fine Foint should be tarred and feathered and
driven off the grounds. Mrs. repeated this to you in such a way that
you received the imi»ression that Mr. Nygren had said that you and Dr. Ballou
should be tarred and feathered and run off the grounds.
The next day you wrote to Maj. Howard, superintendent of the White Earth
Reservation, calling his attention to the existence of a scandal at Fine Point
and suggesting that he make an investigation. Later, you said to Mr. Christie
that the tar-and-feather incident was what made you change your attitude
MEDICAL SEEVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS. 2189
toward Mr. Nygren. You also said you would not forfrive him in 10 years
although the principal apologized, which you yourself adniitte<l.
The evidence shows that on May 6, 1013, you addressed n letter to Dr. >[ur-
phy in which you approved of Mr. Nygren, this letter being d;ited severalweoks
subsequently to the occurrence of the events which you afterwards assigned
as the reasons for your charges. It is also shown that the entire case against
Mr. Nygren is predicated upon the evidence of JNIrs. , whom you
yourself allege to have been grossly immoral. You also allege that
. . i'"d are grossly immoral, and in each ca.se
you give an outline of the women's character. The statonients of these three
persons, together with that of Sirs. , were transmitted by you to
Supt. Howard in support of your charges.
It appears from the record that you delibera.tely preferred charges against
Mr. Nygren with a view to securing revenge on him for his attitude toward you
at the time Mrs. spoke to him about con.ing to his merils late. It is also
shown that you placed a distorted version upon the statement of Jliss ,
which was overheard by Dr. Ballon, even though Dr. P.allou, who heard this
statement as well as some of the remarks preceding it, informed you that Mr.
Nygren was repriuuinding Miss for inattention to her duties.
It is also shown that you asked Dr. Ballon to prepare his statement, and it
was typewrtiten from manuscript, but that you made some slight additions and
changed the phraseology somewhat, although it appears that Dr. Ballon gave
you i)ermissiou to do this.
Your charges did not reach the ofhce until Novenjber, 1913, six months after
you made your complaint to Supt. Howard, and you had ample opportunity
to ascertain that conditions were steadily improving at the school and that
no scandal had come to the sui-face in all that time. In spite of tliis fact
and the further fact that your charges were based upon the evidence of a woman
you yourself alleged to be grossly innuoral, you persisted in pusiung your
charges.
It also appears that you had previously warned Mr. Nygren about Mrs. ■ ,
telling him what you knew about her reputation, and you also told Mrs. to
pay no attention to anything Mrs. said.
Although your charges against Mr. Nygren were made in the interests of
decency and right living, yet wlien Mrs. resignation, on account of im-
morality, was requesteii by Mx'. Nygren, you came to her aid, even though you
knew so much about her character, as shown by your warin'ng to Mr. Nygren
and your advice to Mrs. .
The hose-supporter incident, wliich played such an important iiart in the case
against Mr. Nygren, was never submitted to Superintendent Howard. It was
first told verbally to Miss and yourself, taken stenographically by Mrs.
Jessie K. Janney. and afterwards put into the hands of .Mr. Lovett, assistant
superintendent, every one of whom is unfriendly to Su])printendent Howard.
Yet you stated to the special agent that all of tlie papeis were sent to .Maj.
Howard.
In your letter to Mr. Brosius of December 9, you say: "I have in my pos-
session a copy of a letler written by ]Mrs. to Ma.i. Howard SeiMember 30,
1913." Later, when Mrs. resigned because of iiregnancy (illegitimate)
Maj. Howard recommended her resignatitm in the Indian Service, although he
was urged not to do so. A copy of Mrs. 's resignation with Maj. How-
ard's notation is dated September 9, and your statement that the superintendent
was later urged, etc., is untrue.
Mrs. states that you tried to i)ersnade her to sign a paper or
petition about something she knew nothing about.
You charge that Miss . with whom IMr. Nygren was accused of l)eing
unduly familiar, married a ma.n after a few months' arquaintance. and tlmt on
the day of her marriage it was alleged that she was pregnant, and her husltand
demanded an explanation. Dr. Ballon, who examined hei-. refused to testify,
yet you did not hesitate to say, " She will be a mother in the course of a few
months."
It is shown that in your telegram to Dr. Murphy jou misrepresented condi-
tions at tlie Pine Point Hospital l)y saying " IS patients in hospital," when it
is shown that tliere were only 2 patients in the hospital, and 1G called every day
for treatment for trachoma.
You state that was detailed as assistant matron at the scliool
In April, 1913; that .she is a mixed-blood Indian, 23 years old. and of very
2190 MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS.
unsjivory reputation. Yon state she was in the oftit-e with ;Mr. Xygi't^n almost
day and night ; that yonr roiini while at the school was over the ollice ; and that at
night they would wrestle until it seemed that they would knoek things to pieces.
It is shown hy the evidence that ]\Iiss was at the ofhce only on infre-
quent occasions, and there is nothing in the evidence to show that these visits
to the ofhce were not entirely proper in every respect. It is shown that for
quite a period the watchman slept in the office, and the noise which you alleged
was caused by the ))rineipal and the assistant matron wrestling was probably
caused by the setting up of a fohling cot upon which the watchman slept.
You stated to Mr. Christie that before 'Slv. Brosius submitted the papers in
this case to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs he obtained from the commis-
sioner the i)romise that no one in the Indian Service would suffer because of
furnishing the information contained in the papers. "While I told Mr. Brosius,
and will tell anyone else, that he will be i>rotected in furnishing information, it
must be the truth, and if mistaken it must be in good faith.
It appears that some time in November, 1!>13, while you, Dr. Shoemaker, and
Dr. Polk Richards were at the Lac due Flambeau School, an Indian by the
name of Guyette fell under a moving train at a station south of Lac du Flam-
beau, receiving a badly crushed foot, and was brought to the school hospital for
treatment. Upon the arrival of the patient at the hospital it became evident to
the surgeons present that an amputation would be necessary. With the pres-
ence of Dr. Shoemaker, Dr. Richards, and yourself, together with Dr. Pinch,
the school physician, it would appear that sutlicient professional aid could have
been rendered this Indian. However, you declined to nurse the case, for the
reason, as you stated, that you were supposed to do only eye work. Upon your
refusal the doctors were unable to proceed, as no other nurse was available
locall.v, and the patient was therefore sent to the hospital at Rhinelander,
where the operation was performed by Dr. T. P. ]McIndoe, thus causing an un-
necessary delay in securing for this Indian the attention that was urgent, prob-
ably prolonging his suffering, to say nothing of the surgeon's expen.ses and hos-
pital fees to which the office was sub.1eeted.
You are directed to make proper explanations in the cases mentioned herein,
and 10 days fiom the receipt of this letter will be given you for the purpose of
preparing your reply, showing cause why you should not be dismissed from the
service or reduced in salary, as the entire record may seem to require.
Respectfully,
(Signed) Cato Sells,
Conunissioner.
Senator Lane. What was the date of that letter?
Mr. Keating. This was dated April 8, 1914.
Miss Ross. On April 22 I replied, and my reply is exhibit No. 8.
Senator Townsend. That is in answer to the letter of the com-
missioner ?
Miss Ross. Yes.
(The secretary to the joint commission read as follows:)
I^XHIBIT No. S.
Salt Lake City, Utah, April 22, 1914-
The Honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs.
Washington, D. 0.
Sir: Your letter of April 8 is at hand and I have the honor to reply to the
following :
" My Nygren was not guilty of any moral turjiitude or wrongdoing as charged
by you."
Mr. Nygren was not charged by me personally with moral turpitude or wrong-
doing, as I simply informed Maj. Howard that a scandal similar to that of last
year was rife at the school, saying that as superintendent he should know it
in order to s:ive the service any further disgrace at that place. Thnt I was amply
justified in bringing the matter to the attention of the superintendent was borne
out by the statements of the various employees at the school.
" Relative to remark of Mr. Nygren that Dr. BaTou and Miss Ross ought
to be tarred and feathered and run off the grounds," which remark was made
In the presence of , Allen Shepherd, Clark, and . and
MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS. 2191
Mrs'^V-^imi'wfn'sl'lThf.^^^ '''■'^'" ""^^ "'•^•«*^1^ i" "le presence of
iviis. ixijiou, will state tbat I asked him why he made sncli -i vpiumvI- ..n<i 1,0
i^phed that he did not know, that he .iust tlew zmfd^n Isa d it He €u -the .ad
I am sorry for it it was the remark of a dog. He said he knew t* L we ha
snpiiorted him and asked us to continue to counsel with and su po r him So
far as I was concerned this closed the hu-ident m.til hn.uoht to nn aUentinn
by Special Asent ('hristie. at New Richmond, Ohio. At the t n.e of is y sk
I was conyalescing from a severe illness and was unah c' to s^4k bove i
whisjier. 'iv-<iiv tiuu\t; ,1
My honest recollection of this part of the conversation is "that occurrence
was so di-eadful ha I have tried to forget all about it and never want to
think ot It again." I hope that Special Agent Christie, when his memory s
refreshed, will do me the justice to confirm this «- n^ ■!,
My letter to Dr^ MiuT.hy, dated May (5, 1!)13, was relative to the building up
of the school by Mr. Nygren, who had only taken charge about a month pre-
vious and did not refer to the scandal which was then in its incipiency as
such matters do not come under the .jurisdiction of Dr. Murphy \t tlie re-
quest of Maj. Howard (see Exhibit A, Nov. 11. 191.3). whose business it was
to investigate such matters, I sent to him statements fn.m the following persons
together with a letter of transmission from myself: '
Exhibit B. Letter of transmission
Exhibit D. Letter from Dr. Ballon.
Exhibit E. Letter from Mrs. -.
Exhibit F. Letter from ]\Trs.
Exhibit G. Letter from Miss .
^Mrs. (Exhibit C) was at tliat time a patient at the White
Earth Hospital and verbally rejtorted the condition of affairs at Pine Point
School to several persons. After she was dismissed from the hospital she
returned to Pine Point and there wrote out her own statement, took it to a
notary public and swore to it. and then had it forwarded to me. I took the
precaution of keeping copies of all the papers in trder to intelligently protect
myself if tlie necessity arose.
I consider that immoral characters who are good enough to be kept in the
Indian Service are good enough to make a statement in regard to conditions
where tliey are employe<l.
" It aiipears from the records that you deliberately preferred charges
against Mr. Nygren with a view to securing revenge on him for his attitude
toward you at the time Mrs. ' — spoke to hiin about coining into his
meals bite."
In answer to this will state that it is impossible for me to comprehend your
inference in this instance, since the record show (see Exhibit B) that at the
req'^est of ]\Ia.i. Howard I secured the statements and sent them to him for
investigation.
" It is also shown that you placed a distorted version upon statement of
Miss , which was overheard by Dr. Ballon, even though Dr. Ballon,
who heard this statement as well as some of the remarks preceding it. in-
formed you that Mr. Nygren was reprimanding Miss for inattention
to her duties."
Aj'nin I sti^te that I am unable to -comin-ehend your inferences in this par-
ticular, since Dr. Ballon and I were at work performing a surgical operation on
the eye of a patient at the time the quarrel took place. Dr. B.iUou and I both
henrd the remarks, but neither of us knew the reason for them until Mr. Nygren
later came to my room and asked me if T heard the remarks. I said yos. and
he renliel. " She" was mad because I did not want her to go to a ball game with
me at Osage, Minn."
Dr. Bnllou at no time made any remark to me as you credit him with making,
and his signed statement does not indicate any such thing.
" It also is shown that you asked Dr. Ballon to prepare his statement, and it
was typewritten from manuscript, but tbat you made some slight adilitions and
changed the phraseology somewhat, although it appears that Dr. Ballon gave
you permission to do this."
It does not appear to me necessary to make any explanation to this, since the
slieht addition (Physician. Pine Point School) under his signature was made
with Dr. Ballou's consent.
"Your charges did not reach the oflice until November, 101.3, six nidiiths after
you made your coinplaint to Supt. Howard, and you had ample opjiortimity to
ascertain that conditions were steadily ii..[)roving at the .school, and no s<'andnl
2192 MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS.
had come to the surface in all that time. In spite of this fact and the further
facts that your charges were based upon the evidence of a woman whom you
yourFelf alleged to be grossly immoral, yon jierslsted in pushing your charges."
I fail to see how conrlltions could be considered imitroving and thit no scan-
dal l.ad come to the surface in all that time (May to November), since in August
the assistant laundress, , had produced an abortion in her room
at the school ; the laundress, , had resigned September 9, to take
effect October ]. because of pregnancy; the position of laundress had been ^led
by an innuoral woman, — — , who was reported living with the acting
disciplinarian at the school ; and the teacher and policeman of the school, hus-
band and wife, separated because of his connection with the laundress: the
girls" ni- trcn , accused of pregn.-incy and on the d; y of her mar-
riage stopped halfway to Detroit while her husband called a physician 15 miles
to examine her.
If that means that conditions were steadily improving, then I confess I do not
know what constitutes immorality.
" When ?.Trs. 's resignalicai was requested by Mr. Nygren, you came to
her aid, even though you knew so much about her character, as shown by your
warning to Mr. Nygren and advice to jNIrs. ."
Please examine the records and indicate to me in what manner or at what
time I ever went to the aid of Mrs. . I emphatically say that I never
did. When she was ill in July I took her to a hospital for care, .iust as I would
any poor crenture who needed medical attention, but I strongly protested against
her retention in the Indian Service.
The hose-supporter incirlent, you say, was never reported to Ma,1. Howard.
Plerse carefully read exhibits which were submitted to ISIaj. Howard, and each
one of which refers to that incident: especially read Exhibit E in regard to that.
"A copy of ]Mrs. resign;ition with INI^'.i. Howard's notation is dated
September 9, and your statement that the superintendent was later urged, etc.,
is untrue."
I can have sent to you an affidavit from thnt she, in the pres-
ence of another person, urged him not to recommend her reinstatement and
gave as her reason that pregnancy was the cause of her resignation and my
statement is true.
" Mrs. : states that you tried to persuade her to sign a paper
or petition she knew nothing about."
I did not ask her to sign a petition, but simply asked her, in common with
other employees, if she had heard any scandal. She said no : and this ended
the matter.
" You charge that Miss — , with whom Mr. Nygren was accused of being
unduly familiar, married a man after a few months acquaintance and that
on the day of her marrige it was alleged that she was pregnant and her hus-
band demanded an examination. Dr. Ballon, who examined her, refused to
testify, yet you did not hesitate to say " she will be a mother soon."
As you say. Dr. Rallou asked not to testify in the case, but my information
was given me b.v Dr. Ballon in a letter.
Relative to telegram to Dr. Murphy on conditions at Bine I'oint Hospital I
positively sr.;',e that the hospital and dining-rotm records will hear me out
in the st:itement that there were IS patients enrolled and taking their meals at
the hospital.
"It is shown by the evidence that Miss was at the office only on in-
frequent occasions, and there is notliing in the evidence to sliow that these
visits to the office were not entirely proper in every respect. It is shown that
for quite a period the watchman slept in the office and the noise you allege was
caused by the setting up of a folding cot upon which the watchman slept."
I do not know what " evidence " you refer to, as the exhibits, especially
F and G. do not convey any such impression.
"While I told I\Ir. Brosius, and will tell anyone else, that he will he ju-o-
tected in furnishing information, it must be the truth and if mistaken it
must be in good faith."
I notified Maj. Howard that a scandal existed at the Pine Point School
similar to that of the year before. The statements sent him at his request
proved beyond any shadow of doubt that the scandal existed, and my state-
ment was the truth, also it was given in good faith and in order to protect
the Indian Service from any further disgrace at that place.
" It appears that sometime in November, 1913, while you, Dr. Shoemaker.
and Dr. Polk Richards were at Lac du Flambeau, an Indian was brought to the
MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS. 2193
school hospital for treatment * * *. However, you ileclined to nurse this
case for the reason, as you stated, that you were supposed to do only eye
work, etc' j j^
A short time before this case a policeman at the aKencv. St (Jerniaine met
with a severe accident. I went to the assistance of Dr. IMnch and helped him
to dress the wound, and offered to do auythiuK in my power to be of .service
Dr. Pinch told nie that owing: to the fact that they were not equlpptnl for sucli
patients at the hospital (which was not used as a hospital at all, part of the
building being used by the domestic art classes and the other rooms used as
living 'quarters for employees) that they sent their patients to Khinelauder.
Wis., for hospital treatment. He accompanied St. (Jermalne there at once
as he later did Guyette. Dr. Pinch was absent on another pjirt of the reserva-
tion when Guyette was brought by Dr. Richards to the ho.si>ital, but returneil
in a short time.
I did not then, and do not now, consider it respectful to the physician in
charge to take over the general work of the agency when the plivsici.in is on
the grounds. We were sent to do special work, not to usurp the worlc of the
regular physician. However, I rushed my work to the limit in onler to assist
in the operation, and yi^hen Dr. Pinch came in the room asked him how soon
he wanted to operate. He replied, " We are not equipped to do the work here,
and I am going with him to Ilhinelander," which he did.
I cared for Guyette constantly until he was taken to the train.
I am perfectly willing to stand or fall on my record as a worker since I
entered the Indian Service. My work at T.ac du Flambeau will l)e;ir the
closest scrutiny, as I did my utmost to be of service to every child there.
That tuberculin was given by order of Dr. Richards to ;iO children as an
experiment in the treatment of phlyctenular con,iunctivitis. and resulted so
di.sastrouslj^ in lighting up tubercular lesions in so many children was no fault
of mine. I simply carried out orders. Dr. Pinch counter mancied the order the
very day Dr. Richards left, but not before the children were ruiniing high
fever and exhibiting every symptom of tuberculosis. It will always be a
grief to me that I in any way contributed to anything but good to Indian
children.
In further evidence of my work since assuming the position of supervising
nurse will refer you to Indian Office files:
December 31, 1009, W. H. Harrison.
July 8. 1911, Dr. Murphy (Mr. Nellis and Dr. White).
July 20, 1911, Dr. D. W. Murphy.
June 6, 1912. Dr. G. A. Landes.
June 30, 1913, Dr. James L. Ballou.
Trusting that these explanations will be deemed sufficient to clear up all
misunderstandings, I am,
Respectfully,
Supervising Nurse.
(The witness also submitted the folloAving letters, which were or-
dered to the placed in the record:)
[Recommendations referred to in Exhibit No. 8.]
Dkp\rtmi:nt of the Intekior,
United States Indian Sekvice.
Dr. J. A. M., Washington, D. C.
Sir: I wish to say that for all-round competency, energy, and industry as
a nurse. Miss L. T. Ross, who has assisted me since July 1, 1909/excels any
other person that I ever saw.
When I am through with my operation work and my patients are left In
her care, I have in every instance found my instructions carefully and fully
carried out. In the few instances where the cases were not doing as we had
outlined, she at once recognized the condition and called my attention to
them.
I recommend her to anyone needing the services of a first-class nurse.
Very respectfully,
(This is a copy of the recommendation sent to Dr. Mvirphy.)
2194 MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS.
Santa Fk, N. Mkx., December 31, 190i).
Miss Ross : I am inclosing herewith a copy of a recouiniemlation I am now
mailing to Dr. :Muri)hy. Hope it will do you no harm. Never said a word
about my salary; suppose it will not be increased. Hope you early success in
3'our increase.
Very respectfully,
W. H. Harrison.
Think I'll resign soon, unless they recognize me. I do feel that I am not the
least competent man in the service, although I may be.
H.
Department of the Interior.
Office of Indi\n Affairs.
IlEAnQUARTERS FlELD SUPERVISORS.
Denver. Colo.. July 18, 1911.
Miss Lucretia T. Ross.
Supervisinfi Xiirse, Pawnee, Okln.
Dear Mtss Ro.ss : I have within the past week received a letter from Mr.
Nellis, at Pawnee, and a report of Dr. D. AV. White on his work at Pawnee.
For your interest I will quote statements made by Supt. Nellis and Dr. White.
" Supt. Nellis: In this connection I would like to express my appreciation
of the work done by Miss Ross at this agency. It has l)een most excellent.
She has worked night and day. and the results in cases where there has been
sufficient time to secure definite results are certainly very gratifying. I
would ask nothing better than to be able to retain her if this were possible.
The outside Indians, the pupils, and the employees will always remember her
stay at this school with pleasure and with gratitude. She has at all times
and in all waysJieen most kind, considerate, and helpful."
Dr. White says: "Through Supt. Nellis. Miss I.. T. Ross, supervising nurse
of Indian Service, has been detailed at I'awnee for over five months treating
the eyes of the Indians through the kindness of Supervisor Dr. Joseph A.
Murphy. I desire to say Miss Ross has been the most efficient trained nurse
I have ever had the pleasure to work with. She has the confidence of the
Indians and al.so gives honest time and ability for their welfare."
I am sending the above quotations because they show the estimation of the
superintendent and the special physician of your work at Pawnee. It is grati-
^ing to feel that one's work has been not only done well but has been
appreciated. Both of the above quotations have become official records.
Very sincerely, yours,
Joseph A. Murphy,
Medical Supervisor.
Department of the Interior.
United States Indi.vn Service,
Cantonment, Okla., July 20. 1911.
It is with much pleasure and honor to be fully able to commend Miss Uu-
cretia T. Ross, supervising nurse of the Indian Service, for the high degree of
practicable and scientific training she possesses.
I have served an interneship of over three years in New York City and
Pennsylvania hospitals, and during that time I can honestly state I have not
worked with any nurse more capable than Miss Ross. She is an exception.
She has been without a doubt the ablest nurse I have worked with in the
Indian Service.
One quality above all others I admire ^liss Ross for is her duty and her
persistence for the health of the Indians. She has their entire confidence,
which is only natural after the amount of good she has accomplished. She
has performed an excellent work along eye diseases, but I am sure if she
pursues her position of supervising nurse the training she could impart to
other nurses in the service along tuberculosis and trachoma lines, and also
hygiene and sanitation, would be invaluable to the Indian and employees of the
service.
Daniel W. White, M. D.,
United States Indian Service.
Graduate Jefferson Medical College, Philadelphia, Pa.
MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS. 2195
Cantonmknt, Oki.a.. .7m/// 20, 191J.
Father Henry Keicham.
Catholic Bureau of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C.
Dear Father Ketcham : I received a letter to-ilay from Miss Lucretia T.
Ross, supervising luirse, IiKlinu Service, concerning her expected visit to Wash-
ington this month. She is desirous of meeting you. I gave her a letter of
introduction, which she v.ill present on arrival, if' she will receive it in time.
When I brought attention of the Indian Department to the existence and
prevalence of trachoma among the Indians of the United States, my stanch
supporters in the service at that time were very few. The majority were
afraid to assert themselves, but I am glad to say Miss Ross came out' in the
open and fought with me for what was right, and I hnve no doubt her assist-
ance Wiis one of the reasons why the department was compelled to take up the
«ye fight.
lam sorry to say Miss Ross intends to resign if her requests are not granted.
I expect to be out of the service by October, as my increase in salary b:is not been
granted. I believe the eye fight will continue, and I feel the responsibility of
my own can now be shifted to other shoulders for its continuance. This is all
I wanted to accom])lish before I left the service. As for the remuneration for
the work I do is only a gift for special eye work, I do not consider it a salary.
The Indian Office will have to be trained what special work means before
they can realize its importance, though they have general physicians in the
service all over the coinitry who are not capable of doing eye work, and if any
eye work is to be done an oculist has to be called in.
I expect to reach Washington before winter and shall be glad to see you.
j\ny thing you c;in do for Miss Ross will be a favor.
Very sincerely, yours,
(Signed) Damh. W. Wiiiti:, .M. D.
Department of the Interior,
United States Indian Service,
Cantonment, Okla., July 20, 1911.
Father Henry Ketcham,
Catholic Bureau of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C.
My Dear Father Ketcham : It is a delight to introduce the bearer. Miss
Lucretia T. Ross, supervising nurse of the Indian Service.
It is beyond my power to state how highly I hold Miss Ross; her honesty
and character are in-eproachable. The good work she has iiccomi»lished for
the Indian is a revelation to i^ll upright and conscientious people in the service.
I trust, Father, if you can further her good work with your valuable assist-
ance, you will do me a favor.
Very sincerely, yours.
(Signed) Daniei. W. White, NL D.
Department of the Interior,
United States Indian Service,
Office ok District Ac.knt,
Stihccll, Okla.. June 6, VJU.
Joseph A. Murphy, Washington. D. C.
Sir: I have been associated with Miss Ross in the eye work now for 10
months. She is a capable nurse and a hard and untiring worker. Slie has
had excellent training and a vast amount of practical experience, and I think
without question the most competent and l)est equipped nurse in the service.
Therefore I have no hesitancy in recommending that she receive $1,500 per
annual, $3 per diem, and traveling expenses.
Respectfully, . , , . ,
(Signed) (Ji-ORdi; .^. Landis. Opinnhnologist.
2196 MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS.
Department of the Interjor,
United States Indian Service,
Ponsford, Minn., June 30, 1913.
Dr. Joseph A. Murphy, Washington, D. C.
Dear Sir: Owing to the lack of quarters for patients at Pine Point, the
operative work among the adult Indians has not been as voluminous as I
desired. I have, however, been able to do quite a number of major operations
on patients at their homes, and on tliese I have been able to get admitted to
the school buildings.
In this work Miss Ross has been of inestimable value to me — she has been
very attentive to the duties assigned her and has proven herself exceptionally
proficient in her work, being kind to the patients and loyal to orders given
her.
Respectfully,
(Signed) James L. Ballou, M. D.,
Agency Physician.
Miss Ross. June 13 was a letter demanding my resignation,
which I submit as Exhibit No. 9.
(The secretary to the joint commission read as follows:)
Exhibit No. 9.
Department of the Interior,
Office of Indian Affairs,
Washington, June 13, 1914-
Mrs. Lucretia T. Ross, Supervising Nurse
(Through Dr. Joseph A. Murphy, Medical Supervisor).
Madam: Your answer of April 22. 1914, to charges against you growing out
of the investigation of the Pine Point (Minn.) School by Special Agent
Christie, the report of Mr. Christie, and partly out of the reports of Siipt.
Sickels, of the Lac du Flambeau School, Dr. F. Shoemaker, Dr. Polk Rich-
ards, and Dr. J. W. Pinch in reference to your refusal to assist in the treat-
ment of an Indian who had a crushed foot and who should have been operated
on by these phynicians when at I^ac du P'lambeau, Wis., have all been carefully
considered.
This record justifies the conclusion that you were insincere and unfair to
Principal Nygren, of the Pine Point School, and that your charges against
him were made for personal re-' sons and not for the good of the service.
Your refusal to assist Dr. Shoemaker and the other physicians when an
Indian was brought to Lac du Flambeau School with a crushed foot mani-
fested a deplorable lack of professional and humanitarian interest incom-
patible with the position you hold; in other words you failed to respond
to an emergency which must at some time meet every Indian Service em-
ployee— more especially a professional nurse.
In the light of the record I deem it inadvisable longer to continue you in the
service, find will accept your resignation if tendered at once, otherwise you will
be relieved.
When I told Mr. Brosius, in connection with the information given to him
concerning the Pine Point case, that you would be protected in doing so, it was
with th? undei'st-inding tli'^t this inform.ntion must be the truth, or that if you
were mistaken it should be given in good faith. This record clearly shows that
you did not act in good faith in your information regarding Principal Nygren.
Respectfully,
(Signed) Cato Sells, Commissioner.
Senator Lane. Now, you say in re^-ard to that case where the man
came in with a crushed foot that there Avere no instruments there?
Miss Ross. There was not an instrument of any kind, not even a
butcher knife.
Senator Lane. So they could not have operated?
Miss Ross. Why, no.
Senator Lane. Do the doctors verify your statement as to that?
MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS. 2197
Miss Ross. I do not know whether they will or not Dr Pinch
will know, certainly. I will come to that in a few minutes anyway.
Senator Lane. What operation was necessary in that case?
Miss Ross. To amputate a part of the foot.
After the receipt of this letter of June 13— and, by the way it was
sent through my chief. Dr. Murphy, and I did not receive" i't until
the night of the 2()th of June— I immediately asked for my 15 davs'
annual leave that were due me, and said, " Resignation' will take
effect at that time." I then started from Salt Lake City and
traveled 2,000 miles at my own expense to come here and talk it over
with Commissioner Sells. July 9, at 4 o'clock, I was granted an
interview with him, and I said, "Mr. Sells, I have come fo talk this
over with you." I said, " Surely, Mr. Sells, you did not write this
letter." '^ No, ma'am, I did not; but I am perfectly satisfied with
the man that did." I said, "Who did write it? " "I can not tell
you. It was w^ell reviewed, and everyone of us would agree to the
same thing."
I said, "Mr. Sells, will you tell me who reviewed it?" "No,
ma'am, I will not." I said, "Won't you reconsider it? Won't you
look into it ? Surely you do not want your name to go down on such
a letter as that. In the face of the evidence that was submitted,
surely you do not." " No, ma'am." I arose from my chair, and I
said, " You will not look at it then, " Then he reached over his hand
and said, " Yes, give me the paper ; I will look at it," and he began
immediately to talk about other things.
He said, " In the first place, you maliciously tried to assassinate the
character of that man," " Why," I said, " Mr. Sells, what a?-e vou
talking about? I submitted to you the evidence that I gave Maj.
Howard at his own request in order that he might make a personal
investigation. They all tell the same thing. Hoav could 1 assassi-
nate his character? There is not a word of it from me; it is the
employees that you put there." He said, "They were a low, im-
moral bunch, and you knoAv it." "Well, sir," I said, "I grant you
that statement, but it is all you provided, and I could not ask better
people than you furnished at that school."
He then went on to say that Mr. Nygren was a splendid young man,
and that he had cleaned out the whole immoral bunch and that he
should be sustained, no matter what came. I said, " I gi-ant you
that he is a good worker, and I am glad to hear you say that lie has
cleaned up things. I think that he saw the folly of his way, and I
am glad that he changed, but I say to you, sir, that he did riot clean
up the whole bunch. The people referred to who were so immoral
were and and "
Senator Townsend. Were those all Indians?
Miss Ross. Yes, sir.
Senator Toavnsend. And employees?
Miss Ross. Yes, sir. Mrs. , after an examination by Dr.
Ballon, was requested by Dr. Ballou to resign, and he kept quiet
about her pregnancy, and she resigned and was given a clean bill of
health by Maj. Howard — you read it
Senator Lane. Maybe Maj. Howard did not know — oh, it had been
reported to him, had it?
35601— PT. 16—14 3
2198 MEDICAL SERVICE, BUEEAU INDIAN AFFAIES.
Miss Koss. It had been reported under oath to him, of course it
had. Avhen he went to sign it. That is in Mr. Christie's statement — in
his investigations under oath. — and William J. Lovett
both swore that Miss implored him not to recommend that
woman for reinstatement, and told him what was the reason, and he
said. "I don't care; she is no worse than any other Indian.". And
jet Mr. Sells, with that evidence before him — that evidence was given
under oath — says that he will do it. He says it in just these words:
" Your statement is not true." He gave a clean bill of
he;alth. You will agree Mr. Nygren did not clean that up.
Mrs. , a white woman, the one who had married the Indian
boy, resigned for personal reasons. She had contemplated the same
for six months. She was an absolute failure as a teacher, and I
described to yo'i the condition of her room when we cleaned it for
her, as well as being a woman wdio was guilty of such gross im-
morality— she a woman of 35 and the boy about 20. Yet vhen she
resigns Supt. Ploward gives her a clean bill of health and recom-
mends her reinstatement. ]Mr. Nygren did not clean that up.
eliminated herself by marriage. Mr. Nygren did
not clean that up.
was given a clean bill of health when she had cre-
ated the scandal in the school eight months previous to that time.
She was given a clean bill of health by Maj. Howard, and was rein-
stated in the service. Her little child died, and she brought it back
to Pine Point to bury it, is how she came to be there and tell all
these tales about her smoking and all those things with Mr. Nygren.
She went home for the summer with a sick sister, and has been rein-
stated at Browning, Mont. Mr. Nygren certainly did not clean
that up.
Senator Lane. IVliat position does she hold in Montana?
Miss Ross. Assistant matron.
The position of laundress that was vacated by re-
signing because of pregnancy was filled by Maj. Howard with a
woman of the same class who had been forced to resign the year
before because of pregnancy, and at the time he appointed her she
was living in open adultery with the man who was acting as dis-
ciplinarian at the school. Mr. Nygren afterwards made the two of
them get married, but that does not change the condition at all.
The Indians know that.
I submit these facts to you, and however much Mr. Sells says Mr.
Nygren cleaned up the whole thing, I differ with him.
Senator Toavnsend. Do you know that last statement to be true, of
your own knowledge?
Miss Ross. Wliich?
Senator Townsend. About the couple that had been living in
adultery.
Miss Ross. I think you will find that statement ; yes. At any rate,
I will tell you this. Mr. Christie told me that — Special Agent
Christie.
Senator Townsend. Then, you are testifying from hearsay on that ?
You do not know that yourself ?
Miss Ross. I expect that I could swear to it. They are married.
Mr. Christie, the special agent, who went there and investigated, said
that Mr. Nygren made them marry, and I can swear, because I
MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS, 2199
assisted in the examination the year before when she was examined
and declared pregnant and had to resign and get off the grounds
that atternoon. And I also went to her when her baby was born;
It had very sore eyes, and I went to her and helped care for her
baby s eyes after that.
So tliat conditions were not so greatly changed. Mr. Sells further
says that all these charges were predicated upon the statement of
one verv immoral woman that I knew to be immoral, and that I had
warned the principal about her. and yet when she was requested by
Mr. Nygren to resign that I went to her rescue. There is not a word
of evidence that could be produced on this wide earth to substantiate
such a claim as that. I never did it. I have not seen
since I left her in the hospital last June, and I have never written
her a line in my life. Further than that, the evidence was not all'
by low, immoral people. Dr. James L. Ballou, who gave his state-
ment and who went to Mr. Nygren in friendship twice, is a good,
clean, upright man. Miss , the matron who gave her
testimony and spoke of going down to warn Mr. Nygren id)out some-
body watching him, and spoke of the meeting in her room, and spoke
of them being wrestling on the campus, and things like that, is a
good, clean, moral woman. , the seamstress, who gave
her evidence as to her and her detail being engaged when they were
doing this wrestling, and hearing the confirmation of ]Mrs. — 's
testimony, is a full -blood Oneida Indian, and her word is as good
as gold. She is clean and straight, and she is an example to Avhite
and Indian in all that country. They Avere not all low, vile people.
Those three were good peoi^le.
Mr. Sells says he has cleaned out that whole thing. I submit to
you, gentlemen, that if I found a case of smallpox in this room, and
there was more than one infected with it, and I started one of you
to Minnesota, another to Florida, another one to California, and
another one to Maine, I would not clean up smallpox ; I would dis-
seminate it where A'er you went.
NoAV, I come to the Lac du Flambeau case. I had been given
orders, the strictest orders, not to meddle in any other thing but my
own line of work. At the Lac du Flambeau school the Ignited States
Indian Service decided to abandon hosj^ital work there two or three
years ago. The little cottage that was erected for hospital work was
used as private quarters for employees, and the one largest room
w^as used for the domestic art classes. There were four small rooms
used for the storing of drugs.
I went there, told to assist in treating the eyes, and I faithfully
carried out orders. There was a man in chai-ge of the work — Dr.
Pinch — and we were not sent there to usurp his work at all. AVe
were there to do specific work, and that alone.
Dr. Eichards was only there 10 days when he was sent to Xett
Lake, and was kept there for six weeks, and I carried all of the eye
work of every kind. More than that, the children who Avere sick
had to be cared for in the dormitories, and I went to Dr. Pinch and
asked if I might bring them over to the hospital. There was one
room there. I said, "May I bring them over and care for them?"
He said, "Miss Ross, we are not allowed to have hosi)ital work here,
but if you feel that way, all right." So every child that was sick
2200 MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS.
was brought there and cared for by me until Dr. Pinch dismissed
them, and they went back to their quarters.
When T had been there about two months, I judge, their chief of
police on the reservation met with a very severe accident. A shot-
gun was discharged 10 feet behind him, and it just blew the whole
side of his leg off. It was an awful accident. I got a carriage and
went to the man just as quick as I could get there. I assisted Dr.
Pinch in that awful dressing — the man was crazy.
I said, "Doctor, what do you do with such people? They cer-
tainly need attention. This man certainly must have hospital atten-
tion." I said, "What are you going to do? " He said, "Miss Ross,
we are not equi])ped to do this work up there, so we take these cases
to Rhinelander.^' I stayed with him and helped him and offered to
^ome back that night and hel]) him get the man on the train, but he
said he could get along. Then, when Dr. Richards came back from
Nett Lake, we finished the operations at the school, and I carried all
the treatments. Dr. Richards was not careful in taking the work
that belonged to the agency physician. Sometimes it was not very
pleasant to have the cases that he was treating taken right out from
under his hands and another man take them in and change the treat-
ment.
Senator Lane. He was the eye specialist?
Miss Ross. Yes. It got so tire Indians came, and he Avould tell
them to come and tell me to give them things. I said, " Doctor, I
can not do it. It puts me in such an ugly position to Dr. Pinch.
Now, if he will send me a little notes and ask me to prepare such and
such a prescription for a patient, most gladly will I do it ; but I can
not come in here, open his drug room, and indiscriminately give out
his drugs. It is not proper courtesy to the man."
I had done that; Dr. Richards had ordered the tuberculin and in-
discriminately had taken 31 children, w^ithout ever taking the tem-
perature, without ever taking the opsonic index, without ever taking
the pulse or respiration — he took those 31 children and, as an experi-
ment, injected tuberculin into them. He had not only injected tu-
berculin into them, but doubled the dose.
Senator Townsend. What did he do that for?
Miss Ross. As an experiment, to see if he could control little sores
that broke out on an eye — pure, unadulterated experiment. I tell
you, our children went to pieces. When I said to Dr. Pinch, " Shall
I continue this?" he said, "No, ma'am; nvot another dose. Our
school is shot to pieces." One of the little girls, just as well as I am,
to all appearances — a little, round-faced, sweet child — had had, her
mother told me, a sore eye when she was 4 years old that left a little
white patch on the eyeball. She was one of them. She developed
ocute tuberculosis within two weeks. We had to just dismiss the
children and take them out of work here, there, and everywhere. We
just simply shot them to pieces. I took their temperatures, pulse,
and respiration morning and afternoon, and I had Dr. Richards
examine some of them ; I had Dr. Shoemaker examine some of them ;
I had Dr. Pinch examine some of them. I took their findings and
recorded them, and then I made up that chart and took that for at
least eight pupils to the superintendent's office and asked that these
children be gotten into a tuberculosis sanitarium. I never breathed
MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS. 2201
it to those people that we had deliberately put that death into their
veins.
Senator Townsend. They had not been suffering from tuberculosis
prior to that?
Miss Ross. No, sir.
Senator Lane. Latent cases, you know.
Senator Townsend. It was not given for tuberculosis, but for eve
trouble ? ^
Miss Eoss. Yes, sir; purely and simply as an exi)eriment, and it
was certainly a hazardous thing.
In addition to the fact that this hospital work had been discon-
tinued, when Dr. Richards brought Guyette to the hospital Dr.
Pinch was absent just across the lake seeing another patient. Dr.
Richards came in to me and said, " Miss Ross, Ave will have to operate
at once. Get the instruments ready." I said, "Doctor, there are no
instruments here." "Where are they?" "I do not know," ''Are
they in the doctor's office? " I said, "I do not knovv'. There is not
one here. There is not an instrument of any kind but the ones that
I possess that are little, delicate instruments for eye operations."
I said, " Wait until you see Dr. Pinch. There was a case just like
this came up three weeks ago. and he told me they could not do it
here ; that he takes them to Rhinelander." He said, " We need to
operate here; you get the instruments ready." Again I said, "But,
Doctor, there are no instruments here." But I went in and got my
clean sheets and towels and two pitchers of water just as fast as I
could go. Then I began my afternoon treatment of 50 children Avho
came to me for special treatment. While I was rushing to get
through Dr. Pinch came in, and I said to him, "Dr. Pinch, when
do you want to operate? " He said, " We can not do that here; I am
going to take him to Rhinelander."
I cared for the man just as carefully as I could. He Avas A'ery
drunk, and he insisted upon sitting up in the bed and singing. I
had to have a boy sit right by him. He Avas smoking and Avould drop
his pipe doAvn in the bed. I cared for him faithfully, and finally
gaA'e him, under Dr. Richard's orders, a hypodermic. T had nothing
whatever to do with the lack of hospital work there. I Avould gladly
haA^e taken care of the man had I been giA^en an oppoi-tunitvto do so.
Senator Tow^nsend. You did not refuse to take care of him?
Miss Ross. No; I did not. I neA^er haA'^e done it for anybody.
That Avas dragged in by the ears.
Senator Townsend. Did you CA'er have any trouble Avith Dr.
Richards?
Miss Ross. No. sir; not a word, only that I did o1)ject to the giv-
ing of the tuberculin. He knew that. " But beyond that I have never
had one Avord with Dr. Richards.
Senator Toavnsend. Was there any trouble betAveen Di-. Richards
and Dr. Pinch ?
Miss Ross. No, sir ; not that T Imow of. Not a thing. Dr. Richards
sort of looked down on Dr. Pinch and made fun of him. but there
were no words between them that I ever heard tell of. There were
no Avords but of admiration betAveen Dr. Shoemaker ami mvself.
And I must sav for Dr. Pinch that the three months I Avas there I
2202 MEDICAL SEEVICE, BUEEAU INDIAN AFFAIBS.
was shown every courtesy, every consideration that a Avoman could
be. And I hear from him very frequently.
Senator Townsend. Is he still in the employ of the Government?
Miss Ross. Yes, sir; he is the contract man there and has that
work.
I wish to return now to the statements in regard to "^ATiite Earth.
I want to say here that Mr. Nygren, in my estimation, was not re-
sponsible for the kind of employees, for the immoral characters that
were the kind afforded the Indians at Pine Point. Mr. Nygren had
nothing to do with that, nothing whatever. Maj. Howard — in the
nine years that he has been here, these three scandals came up. First,
there was Hare staying right on those grounds with that awful con-
dition. I can not tell you the awful things I have heard the Indians
tell about that place. The next— and Hare was succeeded by Louis
Page— occurred under Supt. Howard, and the third one occurred
under the same man.
Senator Townsend. Is he still there?
Miss Eoss. Yes, sir; he is still there. All these things have hap-
pened under his administration, and when a scandal occurs he gives
them a clean bill of health, and he sends the smallpox on.
Senator Lane. They go to other reservations?
Miss Ross. Yes, sir. Not only does Maj. Howard provide immoral
employees there and keep them there and give them clean bills of
health to go to other places, but he refuses hospital treatment to the
Indians. In support of that statement I will submit exhibit No. 10.
Senator Townsend. What is that, before we have that put in the
record ?
Miss Ross. That is just simply taking up the fact
Senator Townsend. A statement by you ?
Miss Ross. It is a letter by me to my chief, the medical supervisor
of the department.
Senator Lane. Put it in the record.
Senator Townsend. Let it go in just the same as if you had read it.
Senator Lane, These immoral conditions, you think, have a per-
nicious effect on the children?
Miss Ross. Oh, undoubtedly. That is one of the most corrupt
places I have known. One night after 11 o'clock, while Miss
was out some place, there was a drunken fellow came up from down
town and said, " Your girls are all down here in the woods with a lot
of boys." They climb out over the roof and go out. Yes; the
influence is bad. Senator.
This simply speaks of the men who are still walking, trying to
take care of their cases.
Senator Lane. The physicians?
Miss Ross. Yes.
Senator Lane. Not provided with proper conveyances?
Miss Ross. No, sir.
Senator Lane. That makes it impossible for them to give good
medical attention?
Miss Ross. May I just read this?
Senator Lane. Yes.
MEDICAL SERVICE, BUEEAU INDIAN AFFAIRS. 2203
Miss Ross (reading) :
EXIBIT No. 10.
Department of the Interior.
United States Indian Service,
White Earth, Minn., Au/just 25, 1913.
Dr. Joseph A. Murphy, Crow Creek, 8. Dak.
Dear Sir: I am just in receipt of your letter of August 12, which was for-
warded to me from Ohio ; also your letter of August 19, which contained the
letter which I am returning.
Your telegram directed me to report at White Earth, not Ponsford so I
came on here.
I sent a letter to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs tlirough you a few
days ago, and will remain at White Earth until I hear from it. I am now
assisting Dr. Janney, who i.s at work nisht and day. I am taldng the dis-
pensary worlv while he takes the outside work. Dr. Guitta.rd lias only the
hospital work and that leaves all the dispensary and outside work for Dr.
Janney.
Dr. Lewis has been transferred from Elhow Lake, so that leaves Elbow Lake,
which is 25 miles away, for Dr. Janney also.
Last Thursday evening, after a day of constant work, walking to visit his
patients, Dr. Janney was caled to Elbow Lalce :u!d also to Waul)un, which is 11
miles distant.
I took the trip to Waubun and gave special treatment and medicine, remain-
ing until the patient began to improve. I got back from my trip at 11.80 p. in.,
and Dr. Janney traveled half the night to reach his iiatient ;;nd did not get
back until noon the next day. He will ride until midnight to-night to reach
Elbow Lake again.
The buggies which were bought for tlie doctors of this reservation .-ire here
at the agency, the horses are here also and have been for several months, but
Drs. Ballon and Janney still walk to visit their patients.
One of the buggies was used yesterday by the farmer and stenographer on a
hunting trip, and two of the horses meant for the doctors were driven to Elbow
Lake sometime ago by the police of this place and during the night wore cut
so badly in a wire fence that they have not been able to be brought here since.
With this reservation alive with tuberculosis and tlie hosi)ital at this place
built for that purpose, not a case is admitted.
Several people have come here asking admission since I have been here, but
they have had to turn back and do as best they could.
That shack put up for an "eye hospital'" at Pine Point li;is been roofed and
used as living quarters for the police at that place, and the adult Indians of
that place have no place for treatment for trachoma, tuberculosis, nor any-
thing else.
A few months ago Ma.i. Howard told Dr. Ballon not to dare call that a hos-
pital; that it was never built for one and was only put up to shut the mouths
of the Indi;ins and keep them from asking for a hosi)ital.
A field matron is at work at Pine Point, but Dr. Bnllou writes nie that he Is
very busy. I will go over and assist him in any special work tliat may come up.
Very sincerely,
(Signed) Lucretia T. Ross.
Senator Townsekd. What is the date of that letter?
Miss Eoss. It is August 25, 1913.
I am going to say something else that Avill sound har.'^h possibly.
Maj. Howard not only allows immorality among the employees and
prevents treatment of the Indians, but he is a blackguard in his
speech, and as such I am going to offer as evidence Exhibit No. 11.
May I read this?
Senator Lane. Yes.
2204 MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS.
Miss Ross (reading) :
Exhibit No. 11.
Department of the Interior,
United States Indian Service,
White Earth Boarding School.
White Earth, Minn., August 23, 1913.
Dr. Joseph A. Murphy, Denver, Colo.
Dear Sib: I am inclosing to you a letter to the Commissioner of Indian
Affairs anrl hope that it will he forwarderl to him at once.
It is self-explanatory, but I have no words to voice the indignation I feel.
I have endured a great deal at the hands of men since I entered the Indian
Service, but this is .lust the last I will endure.
Very respectfully,
(Signed) Lucretia T. Ross,
Superxnsing Nurse.
Depap.tment of the Interior,
United States Indian Service.
White Earth Boarding School.
White Earth, Minn., August 23, 1913.
The honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. C.
(Through Dr. Joseph A. Murphy.)
Sik: I was sent to the White Earth Agency in August, 1912. to assist in tra-
choma work among the Indians of the reservation.
The work was opposed by Ma.i. Howard in every way possible, and the physi-
cians with whom I have worked (Dr. Polk Richards, Dr. J. L. Ballon, Dr. J. G.
Janney, Dr. Thomas Rodwell) have, as well as myself, had to endure indignity
and abuse at the hands of Ma.i. Howard.
In April, while Chief Supervisor Holcorabe was at White Earth, I wrote him
a letter asking -him to come to Pine Point (copy of which is inclosed), as I felt
it would be for the good of the service for him to do so. He never came, neither
did he reply to my letter.
I had become aware of the fact that the Indians believed that Maj. Howard
had made some improper remarks to me, or had made some indecent remarks
about me. and I wished to speak to INIr. Holcombe in regard to it.
Sunday, April 20. N. B. Herr (a full-blood Indian), former principal at Pine
Point School, asked Dr. Ballon if it was true that jNIaj. Howard had made inde-
cent proposals to me or in regard to me. He snid that the Indians were under
that impression, and if it were true they were going to report him to the Indian .
Office for it.
Dr. Ballon asked me about it and I told him that I believed it to be an utter
falsehood — certain it was that he had never made an imy)roper remark to me.
Since my return to this reservation, August 15, 1913. the subject has been
brought to my attention several times, so I wrote a letter to Mr. W. .7. Lovett,
assistant superintendent at this place, and asked him if he had ever heard the
reports.
His reply (which I am inclosing) is a confirmation of the rumors that are
current.
I do not know v.'hat the obscene remarks are that he has made in regard to
me. but Mr. Lovett tells me that he (being present and hearing it) reported
it to the office in writing and also made a verbiil report of it to Mr. Holcombe.
I now request that this matter be examined into by the Indian Office, and,
if it is true, that the sei'vice be freed from a man so low that he will befoul
and blacken the name of a woman.
I have in all things conducted myself with prudence and discretion, and I
consider it an outrage that my name has been used to emphasize the low
obscene remarks made by this aged senile man, and made publicly before a
number of men, one being an Indian.
Another woman, a teacher at White Earth, has had her name dragged in the
mire by this same man during the year.
Very respectfully,
(Signed) Lucretia T. Ross,
Supervising Nurse.
MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS. 2205
Department of the Intekior,
United States Indian Service,
White Earth Agency,
,r ,Tr T ^ . . White Earth, Minn., August 20. 1913
Mr. W. J. LovETT, Assistant SupeKintendent, . y «>' -(/. ui^.
White Earth, Minn.
ntP^Ttn^fn^'-f P-"^%'-^r" ?^' }^^^' ^- ^- ^^^''' '"='*1^ '^^ appointment with
Dr Ballon at Piue Point ami asked him to find out from me if Mai Howard
had ever maae any improper proposals to mo or any improper remarks con-
oerniiig me at which I had taken offense. Ke said the Indians understood that
Maj. Howard had made improper remarks about me and, if so, thev wanted to
know It and they would take the matter up with Supervisor Holcnube. who was
then at A^ hite Earth. I as.sured Dr. Ballon that the statement was utterly
false, and he so informed Mr. Herr. I now find that such a story is Renerally
reported and I have been asked about it several times. Have you ever heard
any intimation of such a report which is being circulated among the Indians
or have you ever heard Supt. Howard make anv improper remarks concern-
ing meV
Very respectfully,
(Signed) Lucretia T. Ross,
Supervising Nurse.
Department oi the Intekior,
United States Indian Service,
White Earth Agency,
White Earth, Minn., August 20, J 9 13.
Miss Lucretia A. Ross,
Supervising Nurse, White Earth, Minn.
My Dear };Iiss Ross : Replying to your letter of this date relative to any
slanderous reports that may have been circulated among the Indians regarding
yourself by Supt. Howard, I have to advise you that I have no knowledge of
any such reports being current among the Indians.
It might be possible that the vulgar remark which Mr. Howard made in the
presence of C. M. Ellis, B. F. Carr, Frank T. Carr, Louis Blue (Indian), and
myself in the office of Mr. Ellis, at Pine Point, had been repeated by Louis Blue
to some of the other Indians and enlarged upon by them. I was very much
surprised at the time that Supt. Howard would so far forget the dignity of
his official position as to couple your name with a vile, filthy remark, especially
in the presence of an Indian.
The thought expressed by Mr. Howard was of too obscene a nature for me
to repeat here, but I did make a verbal report of same to Chief Supervisor Hol-
combe after having called same to his attention in writing. I, of course, do not
know what action was taken by Mr. Holcombe regarding same, as after rejiort-
ing the matter to him I felt my duty ended.
Very respectfully,
(Signed) \V. J. Lovett, Asst. Suijcrintcndcnt.
That is what I sent Mr. Sells.
Senator Lane. Have you his answer ?
Miss Ross. Yes. [Reading:]
Department of the Interior,
Office Commissioner of Indian Affairs,
Wusliinglon, September 8, 19IS.
Dear Miss Ross: I am in receipt of your letter of August L'.";, coniaining com-
plaint against Supt. Howard, and advise you that the matter was inquired into
by Mr. Holcombe when he was at White Earth, and lias been the .subject of a
report by him to me, which is now under considoration in connection with other
matters pertaining to the administration at White Earth.
Very truly, yours,
(Signed) Cato Sells, Commissioner.
Miss Lucretia T. Ross,
Supervising Nurse, care Pine Point Day Sehool, Pon.sfonl, .]tinu.
Mr. Sells in his talk to me was very emphatic. He could not and
would not even consider going; over his statement and his decision
2206 MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS.
that he had reached, because 1 had assassinated a man's character,
and yet Mr. Sells has known for 11 months that that man tried to
blacken me in the vilest sort of way before six men, one of them an
Indian.
Senator Tow^nsend. Are yon referring to IMaj. Howard or to Mr.
Nygren ?
Miss Eoss. To Mr. Nygren.
Senator LA^'E. Yon do not know the character of the remark?
Miss Eoss. I do not, further than what this man said, that it was
too obscene even to repeat. I took it up, and nothing has been done.
He knew of that assassination of character 11 months ago and it has
just gone on. In talking with Mr. Sells I said, " Mr. Sells, won't you
look over these recommendations that I have for a lifetime of work?
This is an awful imputation to put on a woman that has tried to
be true." I said, "Won't you look over these things? Here are
little references that deal with mv whole life. They are from
the schools that I have attended. They are from the people I have
known, and there is not but one person of them that is dead. Won't
you look them over ? " And then I handed him these recommenda-
tions from every man that I have worked with since I have been in
the Indian Service. I said, "Mr. Sells, won't you look over those?"
He just looked at one thing and dropped it doAvn.
I said, " Mr. Sells, if I have done Avrong, I am sorry. If I have
unwillingh^ done wrong, unconsciously, I am sorry. I will never do
it again. I will do my level best. Won't you look over it and re-
consider your verdict ? " " Xo, ma'am ; I will not. A woman who
will assassinate a character is beyond any thought of sympathy or
sentiment" — those two words. I said, "God pity 'us if that is the
case." He said, " More than that, you knew of that wrong. You
knew of that wrong and you never opened your mouth to correct it,
and .vou knew that all those Aveeks until, in spite and vinclictiveness,
you heard what that man had said about you and you went after him
to ruin him. You condoned his offenses that he had committed."
And he said, " For such persons there is no quarter but to instantly
dismiss them."
I said, " Mr. Sells, w ould you take that stand in regard to a
fraud or anything like that? " " Yes, ma'am ; I would do it." I said,
" How long would it take you to reach such a stand as that ? " "I
would do it immediately." I said. " Are you sure that you would do
it immediately ? " He said. " Yes, ma'am." Then he stopped. Then
he said, " Miss Eoss, I might be a little while gathering up evi-
dence and getting it into my hands, but I would come to it, and
a man or woman who had committed a fraud or had condoned it
would receive no quarter from me." I said, " Would it take joii three
months? Do you think you could make up your mind in three
months?" "Yes, ma'am." I said, "Could it possibly take you six
months? " " No; I would get hold of it before that."
I said, "Mr. Sells, could it by any possibility take you a year to
make up your mind ? " He said, " No, ma'am." I said, " You did it.
You knew a solid year ago of the awful fraud practiced in the ap-
pointment of our medical chief, and it has embarassed and hampered
and crippled us all this time, and you have never taken any action
about that, and a^ou have condoned that."
MEDICAL SER\^CE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS. 2207
^i,^1?'""J^^^^ i"l^ °^^* ""^ ^^^^ ^^^^""' ^^^ 1^6 sf^i^^' "How do you Im
that i 1 said, ' I know it. I know the men that brought vou
madence. ' He said, " Who were they ? " I said, " They were Sena
Imow
the
^ ^ T. ^ -' ■ 5 They were Senator
Overman, Congressman R. L. Doughton, and Hon. Robert L. Ballou,
on the lith day of July, 1913. And they brought you more than
that. Ihey brought you the Congressional Record; they brouo-ht
you an affidavit from George L. Landis showing that he was turned
down and not allowed to take the examination; and they told you
the requests of Daniel W. White were on file here showing he had
been turned down. You have condoned that for a year."
Senator Lane. What did j^ou mean by that fraud ?
Miss Ross. The fraud in the position is clearly outlined in the
Congressional Record that was made during the Graham investiga-
tion. It shows how Mr. Leupp, when he was getting ready to get
out of office, wanted to get Dr. ^Murphy, who was then a temporary
employee, a standing under the civil service in that plant. Mr. Val-
entine was made the goat in that case, he answered, and said, " We
have decided we will call for an examination." I can refer you to
the congressional report. At any rate, they decided they would make
experience a large relative weight, and they took that doctor and
sent him all over the country, so he would examine a lot of tubercu-
losis and trachoma, and they absolutely refused men to take the ex-
amination other than that.
" Now," he said, " if any man really qualified should take it, why,
we will appoint him to regular physician's work until we come to the
name of Dr. Murphy. Then we will appoint him at a lower amount,
say for two or three months, and then Ave will put him over." That
is all in the congressional report.
That was taken to the commissioner, and he promised he would
take it up. But that was not so important as it Avould be in a w(nnan
where she is falsely accused of laiowing a scandal existed— for I
hereby say I never knew it until the night before I notified the major.
I did not know it and condone it.
Owing to the fraud in the Indian Service, owing to the fraud in
the appointment of our chief, the whole work has had to suffer. Our
chief has not been able to take a stand against any man. Xo matter
how much he opposed anything that was done, our chief has not
dared to stand out, because his own position was so precarious: and
so we have had to be crippled.
In proof of my statement that our chief has not dared to act in the
face of wrong, where he Imew wrong was being done, I offer as evi-
dence these two papers. Exhibits Nos. 12 and 13, showing plainly, in
the doctor's own handwriting, where he knew of wrong being done
and work being crippled, and an extract from the Singleton report
which gives a letter that he wrote to the men that he knew had done
that, saying, "I think you have been sincere; that you have helped
in the work all you could."
Senator Townsend. Have those letters been filed in tlie depart-
ment?
Miss Ross. No, sir ; those are my own. I am making a plea tor my
name.
2208 MEDICAL SERVICE^ BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS.
(The letters referred to are as follows:)
Exhibit No. 12.
Department of the Interior,
United States Indian Service,
Navajo Agency, N. Mex.,
Fort Defiance, Ariz., June 11, 1910.
Miss LucRETiA T. Ross, San Ildefonzo, N. Mex.
Dear Miss Iloss : I wish to acknowledge receipt of your letter of .Time 1
and also of two previous ones, which I have not yet answered, in which you
report the progress of the work. I had delayed answering or taking any action
because I expected to stop at Santa Fe on my way West. Mr. Abbott wired
me to meet him here and my plans have necessarily been changed, so that I
will be unable to reach Santa Fe for a number of weeks yet. It may be
possible that if you take your leave early in July that I might not be able to
get there before you go; I will try to do so. however.
I am inclosing a blank on which you will make your request for leave, and
at present see no reason why it should not be granted. In case you do not
hear from me in time, it will be safe to take your leave as requested, since I
will approve as soon as the blanks reach me. If, however, you wish to take
leave without pay the blank will first be forwarded to the office for approval.
The conditions which you report in regard to the teachers haviug received
DO instructions to continue the trachoma work and also the difficulty which
they have had in obtaining supplies I wished to investigate on the ground
in order to avoid further trouble between yourself and the superintendent, for
I felt that if I reported to him by letter what you said in the matter it migtit
serve to make matters more unpleasant for you in case he felt that you were
reporting to me " things which did not concern you." Although this is not
the case, and I wish to have a full report on all matters relating to your work
given with as much freedom as you have always done, I have still delayed
taking action in the matter for the reasons given above. I will, however, visit
the Pueblos and go into the local conditions carefully within a very short time.
Very respectfully,
Joseph A. Murphy, Medical Supervisor.
EXTRACT FROM SINGLETON REPORT.
" Crandall refers to the vast amount of good done at the Santa Fe school for
trachoma by Dr. Harrison, Miss Ross, Dr. A. Dunn, and Dr. R. D. Holt. Cran-
dall sends as an exhibit a letter from Dr. Joseph A. Muri^hy, head of the
medical department of the Indian Bureau, commending the interest Crandall
had expressed in the trachoma treatment and also stating his belief that
Crandall was sincere."
Exhibit 13.
DRUG supplies AT PUEBLOS.
The following invoice of drugs was taken, that I might know where to look
for supplies in treating an emergency when it arose.
The drug supply for the day school should be selected by a physician or
one tr.nined in the use of drugs, not by a layman who is totally unfamiliar
with their properties. The drugs should also be supplied in tablet form
wherever practicable. In case of rheumatism, of what avail is a pound of
sodium salicylate powder when there is not a pair of drug scales within a
radius of 25 miles and the teacher does not know the properties nor dose of
the drug?
Efficiency in treating malaria, malarial dysentery, typhoid fever, scarlet
fever, pneumonia, tuberculosis, inpetigo, and trachoma can not be found in
such drugs as powdered alum, sodium bicarbonate, cream of tartar, aromatic
ammonia, and tincture of arnica flowers, no matter how liberally they may be
supplied.
MEDICAL SEEVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS. 2209
Assisted by the liousekeepei- at Taos day scliool, I invoiced the stock of drugs
October 0, 191U. The school is well supplied with drugs, esj)ecially cathartics,
of which they have —
*******
Dr. Martin in his request for drugs for 1911 names, among other things,
ichthyol, citrine ointment, and mercurial ointment. These much-needed drugs
should be liberally supplied to every school. The following is a complete list
of drugs :
The drugs supplies consisted of a few unimporttmt things. There were no
disinfectauts of any kind. Nothing with which to treat the skin eruptions
which were prevalent. No cough mixtures nor any medicines with which to
make them. I supplied the argj-rol, bichloride of mercury, toothpicks, and medi-
cine droppers with which to threat the eyes. At my last visit a pound of
cotton and four ounces of boracic acid have been sent there. No castor oil
was to be liad for sick children.
SAN JUAN.
During the epidemic of malarial dysentery which prevailed the latter part
of September and tirst of October 1 spent several days in the village. No
castor oil was on hand, and in case of sick children who were put on calomel
it was a necessitj'. 1 found the housekeeper, Mrs. Schriever, had been buying
castor oil for the sick children, and during the entire epidemic she supplied the
castor oil out of her meager salary. Very little quinine was on hand and that
was used up in a few days. I took a bottle of 1 ounce quinine from Santa
Clara to meet their needs, but there were no capsules in which to dispense it,
and raw quinine is not calculated to quiet the nausea which accompanies the
disease. We were forced to put the patients on fluid extract cinchona aro-
matic. A slow, and inefficient means to check malaria that was accompanied
by complications that rapidly sapped the vitality. The teacher made requisi-
tion for castor oil, quinine, and capsules September 26, and October 3 I per-
sonallj' urged that the medicines be supplied, but was told that no castor oil was
on hand. These drugs were not supplied until sometime later. Dr. liivera
took charge of the work October the 4th and handled it successfully. The fol-
lowing is a list of drugs invoiced by help of the housekeeper October 8, 1910 :
SAN ILDEFONZO.
In January, 1910, at the request of the teacher, Miss Richards, I invoiced the
drugs, and as she, in common with other teachers, knew nothing of the uses,
properties, and doses of the drugs, she asked me to write the name of each
drugs, give its properties, name the diseases for which used, and the do.se, both
for adults and children. All this I did. putting the work in practical shape.
I left it in the di-speusary for its use, hence have no invoice with me at i)resent.
The school is liberally supplied, and the drugs I designated as needed were
pormptly sent.
NAMBRE.
During the year considerable sickness has i)revailed at Nambe. Several
children have died and many have had long attacks of illness which simple
remedies would have speedily cured. The housekeeper and teacher asked me
repeatedly for castor oil, as so many little children had cholera infantum and
kindred illnesses during the year. I advised the teacher to ask the superin-
tendent for all medicines needed. He did so, especially urging that castor oil
be sent. He was told that none was on hand and that " they surely ate castor
oil at 2\ambe." After five children had died I secured a bottle of castor oil at
Sia and personally took it to the school at Nambe. The drugs at Nambe are
inadequate. One 'woman has suffered from erysipelas during the past month,
and when she finally secured the attendance of a physician he could only do
2210 MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS.
the best he conld, as there were no nierlicines ou hand to trent erysipelas. I
ha\e snpiilied the argyrol, medicine droppers, and most of the cotton for treat-
h\^ tlie eyes dnring the year. The following is the invoice of drugs:
^ ***** *
TEStTQUE.
No Government employee is at this village, and there are no drngs of any
kind supplied. During the year there has been considerable illness and
several deaths. The Indians have come to me for medicines and help in their
suffering. I used my own judgment in deciding wh;it should be done, as no
pTiysician was provided them. I personally visited the hosi)ital at the Santa Fe
Indian School and thei'e obtained medicines needed in several instances. During
a recent visit to Tesuque. December 15, 1930, I was asked to visit some people
■who were sick. I found the following cases:
Francesquita Romero. — Temperature, 103.4; pulse, 102; respiration, 36; she
was under treatment of Dr. Holt.
Mrs. Silvaria Duran. — Temperature, 103; pulse, 108; respiration, 34; right
side of pharynx covered with white p.;tch.
Cornoto Suaza. — Temperature, 102.8; pulse, 98; respiration, 30; follicular
tonsillitis.
The last two urged me to give them some medicine, but I had nothing, no
purgative, nothing with which to make gai-gle, nothing with which to relieve
the intolei-able aching. I promptly reported the conditions to Supt. Crandall,
and asked that a physician he sent there. I described the condition of the
throats, and said that one case so closely resembled diphtheria that it should be
clo.sely watched. Two days later I again visited the pueblo and found the con-
dition unchanged. Mrs. Duran reproached me for not bringing medicine to her.
I could only assure her that I had reported her illness and asked that a
physician be sent. Three days after I had reported this case to Supt. Crandall
Dr. Holt visited the village. He found the same temperatures and general
condition that I had reported, but he was not informed of the sore throats and
consequently never examined for them. He did not know that such a condition
existed until I reported it to him in San Juan December 21, 1910. I supplied the
argyrol, cotton, toothpicks, copper suli)hate, and all supplies for treating the
eyes during the year. Adequate medical supplies should be furnished every
pueblo.
SANTO DOMINGO.
No Government employee is at this village, and no drugs are supplied to my
knowledge.
COCHITI.
During the year much sickness has prevailed and many deaths have resulted.
Two epidemics of scarlet fever have sown seeds of disease for continuance of
the same. No physician was supplied for a considerable period, and the drug
supply with which to treat diseases of various kinds was totally inadequate.
" Cochiti fever," a dreadful scourge among these people, has also claimed its
quota.
The teacher, Mrs. Gallup, is most efficient and conscientious, but her useful-
ness was greatly curtailed by lack of supplies. She asked me in October if I
could not arrange for some castor oil to be sent to Cochiti. She had requested
it, but as none was supplied she had purchased the oil for the pueblo at the
little village store until the supply was exhausted. The same reply was always
given, " None is on hand." In October she visited Santa Fe and voiced her great
need of castor oil. She was promptly given a quart by an employee from the
supply that was on hand. While there was plenty on hand and children were
dying for lack of it, yet if it should be discovered that some person had humanity
enough to try and fill the need that person's po.sition would be made vacant,
hence the donor is nameless. Below is a complete list of drugs taken November
8, 1910 :
The drug supply is extremely limited, and that supplied is not of practical
benefit. The medical supply on hand that is used for the sick in the pueblo is
furnished by the Catholic Church.
MEDICAL SERVICE, BUEEAU INDIAN AFFAIRS. 2211
SIA.
The drug stock at Sia is small and consists largely of tincture of arnica and
a few botries of powders. During the year the teacher, desiring to continue
the treatment of trachoma in her school, asked for cotton and nuHlicine
droppers with which to do the work. After waiting and asking repentodly for
supplies she bought and paid for them he:-self. in order to trent a disease' tliat
the Government is anxious to have treated. No cough sirup was supplied, and
she has been unable to secure sirup of squill and glycerin with which to make
it. She bought the glycerin and sirup of squill last year and made cough
medicine for the Indians. In No\ ember a bottle of sirup of white-i)ine com-
pound was sent he:-, but was so poorly packed that it was broken in transporta-
tion, and but about 4 ounces of the medicine was saved.
LucRETiA T. Ross, Supercisitig Nurse.
December 31, 1910.
Miss Ross. More than that, our chief, because he has been crippled
by the fraud by Avhich he was put into office, lias been unable to —
or has not taken up things that should have been taken up. I have
reported faithfully. There was a long time I had to report daily
everything I did, everything in connection with my work. Then,
again. I liad to leport weekly. I must report on every case I visit,
every patient I handle, what their condition is, and I must keep re-
porting and reporting. That is Avhy all these voluminous reports are
there, and. of course. I must keep a copy of everything. I have re-
ported conditions and reported them, and have failed to get a word
in reply.
Senator Towxsexd. To whom did you report?
Miss Ross. To my chief.
Senator Townsend. Who is he?
Miss Ross. Dr. Joseph A. Murphy, medical supervisor, United
States Indian Service.
Senator Townsexd. In Washington?
Miss Ross. Here in Washington; yes, sir — sometimes in the field.
In support of that I olf'er here Exhibit N'o. 14.
(The letter referred to is as follows:)
Exhibit No. 14.
April 11, 1914.
Dr. Joseph A. Murphy, Wasliington, D. C.
Sir: I wrote you in February in regard to the conditions at Washakie, T'tah.
and requested that a field matron be stationed at that place. I have not heard
one word in regard to that matter; neither has the receipt of the letter been
acknowledged.
About the middle of February I sent you a letter containing copy of requi-
sition for drugs to be used among the scattered bands of Indians in Utah, and
asked your advice in regard to them. The receipt of the letter h.!s never been
acknowledged, neither have I heard anything in regard to tlie drugs. As I am
having to do the work among these Indians as both physician and nurse it is
important that I know something about the drugs. I am now almost at a
standstill in my work. I have thoroughly instructed the female industrial
teacher at Skull Valley and those Indians are under treatment, but not one
thing is being done at any other point.
The Mormon Church offered a building, rent free, at Washakie that could be
used as a dwelling for the field matron or worker sent to that place. The build-
ing is unfurnished, and no word has been received in regard to a worker or
accommodations for a worker at that place.
The school at Deep Creek has been closed and there are no quarters at that
place where a worker could be accommodated even though one were appointed.
I reported fully the condition of the Cedar City Indians to you some time ago,
also the Indians at Milford, but have not had an acknowledgment of the receipt
of the letter.
2212 MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS.
1 t'xptK't ill the iieiu- future to visit Wiishakie uiul then go soutli to Kanab,
Kanosh, and Koosliareni. Tliis will entail a travel of about 1(50 miles by stage
after leaving tlii' railroad. The Indians in these isolated places have neither
medical attention nor medicines. ^\t erery point that I have visited the Indians
have come to me bringing their sick and diseasetl, asking for help for numerous
ailments and conditions. I have had to almost invariably promise help that
has not been forthcoming.
I will report the conditions as I find them at these different jioints that I
visit, and if no means can be devised whereby work may be done among them,
would request that I be assigned to some field where I may do something of
value.
Very sincerely.
Supcnifiing Nurse.
Miss Eoss. That, Mr. Chairman, closes the exhibits I shall now
offer.
Senator Townsend. Is that also a letter from you?
Miss Ross. A letter from me to my chief. Shall I read it ?
Senator Townsemd. You see, this will all be printed, and the
commission will look it all over. It will go in the record just the
same as if you had read it.
Miss Ross. I am going to say here that Mr. Sells in my talk with
him said to me, "I appreciate you. Miss Ross. I think you are a
woman of ability; I always did like you. No man has ever said
a word against you to me. No man has ever said a word against
you to me, but,'" he said, " I can not excuse a woman wdio wdll con-
done a wrong, who will assassinate a man's character, who will be
so untrue to her trust as you were up there." And I begged him
with tears in my eyes only to go over the record again. He would
not do it. He said he would not under any circumstances; he does
not ever intend to shield a w^rongdoer. And yet he has known for
one year — he takes a very advanced stand on prohibition, and yet
he has known for the whole year he has been in the service that
Clinton J. Crandall, while he was superintendent in Santa Fe,
promoted a drug store that was a blind tiger, and was recreant to
every trust he had; that he took $1,500 — by his own statement — of
money donated by starving Indians, and put it onto an automobile
speedway. And yet he is held in the service to-day — the superin-
tendent at Pierre, S. Dak.
I do not know what to say about it at all. I am not asking a
thing for myself, gentlemen; not a thing.
Senator Townsend. Do you admit you have done any wrong in
that matter?
Miss Ross. No ; I do not admit that — no ; I do not. I have shown
you proof that I have not.
Senator Townsend. I was wondering at your statement you made
to Mr. Sells that you were willing to acknowledge that you had done
wrong and wanted to be forgiven.
Miss Ross. Why, I would do that any time — any time.
Senator Tow^nsend. Did you have anything in mind at that time
that you might have done something wrong.
Miss Ross. Not a thing on this earth ; only I thought " Here is a
man who is honest in his mind and he thinks I have done wrong.
I Avill apologize for the wrong, even if he simply thought that in his
mind." No, sir.
MEDICAL SERVICE^ BUREAU INDIAN APFAIKS. 2213
Senator Town send. How long were you in the serviced
Miss Ross. I have been in the service eight years.
Senator Townsekd. Where did you enter the ser\ice^
Miss Ross. I entered the service at Jacksonville, Fla.'
Senator Toavnsend. You went into the sei-vice down there.
Miss Ross. I took the examination there. I took the competitive
civil-service examination early in the spring of 1006. I was certi-
fied to and was appointed to Carlisle, and went on duty there in
October, 1906. I remained there until 1907— December IT. 1907,
when I was transferred to Haskell Institute. I was at Haskell
Institute about 14 months. I think, when I was made chief nurse in
the service and was sent to Pheonix, Ariz., to oi)en up the first eve
hospital that we decided to have in the service, and I was there for
six Aveeks. I cleaned up the place: and then I was made supervising
nurse, and I have been in the field ever since.
Senator Townsexd. Have you evev been reprimanded or criti-
cized by the department for any of your service at any other time?
Miss Ross. Never for one thing on earth but for reporting condi-
tions similar to those. When I went to Carhsle — you want me to
explain to you, do you. Senator?
Senator Townsend. Yes; I want to know about it.
Miss Ross. '\Anien I went to Carlisle I found the things were going
along very nicely. The man who was at the head of it at the time
was a kind man to the children, and he was a man who Avanted to
have his school right in the forefront. I was there for quite a while,
Avhen I asked for a transfer, because I was having trouble with
my ear in the Cumberland Valley and had been in the care of a
specialist six weeks at Harrisburg, and he advised me to go to
the ^Middle West, where he thought I would get all over the trouble,
which I did when I went to the AYest. I asked the department for
a transfer, and they arranged to transfer me to Haskell and to send
the nurse from Haskell to Carlisle. She was having trouble at
Haskell and had preferred charges against the superintendent,
Mr. Peairs.
Three weeks before I left Haskell Institute — ^not that long ; about
two weeks before I left Carlisle, not Haskell Institute — I had some
news brought to me by a couple of women that I even refused to
hear at all. I admonished them that they were telling things that
were dreadful, and asked them Avhy they ever brought such news
to me, and I said, "Do you know you are laying yourselves liable
to suit for libel; that you will lose your positions; that di-ead-
ful penalties may attach'^to the telling of such tales as you are tell-
ing?'' Thev said, "It is the truth, no matter what the penalties
might be." '"Well," I said, "now, look here. You are the mother
of little daughters of vour own. If you are willing to take the stand
for your child, if you should be taken away and your child left to
make its way along in the world— if you are willing to take the stand
for some other mother's child that you Avould like another woman to
take for vour child— under those circumstances you shoidd go home
and talk 'this over with your husbands just what I say: and if you
know it is the truth and vou are i-eady to stand for the triith, V()ti
come back to the school and I will see what I can do." And they did :
they came and gave theii- affidavits. At the same time tliere was
35601— FT. 16—14 4
2214 MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS.
«notliei' yoiiiio^ woman who had been sent home, after having been
at Carlisle eight or nine years, and the major had asked her to
•come back — had written her mothei- and asked her to have her
'daughter to come back and he would give her a good position in
the Indian Service. She also told some very incriminating things.
1 never mentioned them, and I swore them to secrecy never to tell
such a thing or let it out. I thought I would like to quietly hand
that to Mr. Leupp, who was then commissioner, and let him see to it.
But the day I went to leave, the superintendent came to me and
asked me or told me he had heard it some way, and begged
me not to go. I was not going first to Mr. Leupp; I was going
to take it to some Senators I knew and ask their advice about it,
«nd he begged me to go to Mr. Leupp. He said, "I Avill resign
and get out of the Indian Service if you ever let that get out. For
the sake of my wife and children, for Heaven's sake do not let that
get out" — the debauchery of an Indian girl right there on those
grounds. I told him that he would have to give me some little
statement to take with me. and he declared that he could not; it
would have to be one man to man. and that he would do it. And
Mhen I got off the grounds he A^ent in and threatened to shoot these
people if they did not at once take back their affidavits, and the
husband of the woman ran to me and caught me before I got off on
the train, and I called up the major, " You had better just write
that little statement I asked you for," and he w^rote it out and I
went down to Washington and gave it to INIr. Leuj^p. and he put
him out of the service. That was held against me dreadfully.
Senator Townsp^nd. Who held it against you?
Miss Eoss. Mr. Leupp, the Commissioner of Indian Affairs.
Senator Tow^nsend. Although he had let the man out?
Miss Eoss. He could not do otherwise. The man had sent in his
resignation.
Senator Tow^nsend. Wliich he accepted?
Miss Eoss. "N^Hiich he accepted with a great eulogy. (To Senator
Lane.) I have every word of that thing in my possession; I have
all those affidavits — I have his resignation ; I have the letter wa-itten
by Mr. Leupp.
Senator Townsend. I do not care to go into that further, but I
^vanted to know if you had had any other trouble
Miss Eoss. Yes, yes. I read a letter written by Mr. Leupp to Dr.
Murphy. He took it and showed it to me. It was written May 17,
1909. and he said : " Miss Eoss is a square peg, and the next thing
•she does out she goes."
Senator Townsend. She is what— a square peg?
Miss Eoss. A square peg, and the next thing she does out she goes.
Senator Lane. A square peg in a round hole, as the saying goes.
Miss Eoss. And he says, "the next thing she does, out she goes."
The " thing " referred to was the referring to this large licentiousness
of the superintendent of Carlisle, and the next thing w^as the report-
ing the awful condition of tuberculosis at Haskell Institute, and
the insisting that Indian children be given a chance for their lives
when we take them away to give them an education.
Senator Lane. "Wlio was the commissioner at that time?
Miss Eoss. Franci E. Leupp.
Senator Lane. What was the condition in regard to tuberculosis?
MEDICAL SERVICE, BUREAU IXDIAX AFFAIRS. 2215
Miss Eoss. At Haskell ?
Senator Lane. Yes.
Miss Ross. The records are all in the Indian Office. It was in
bad condition. When I ^Yent there they Avere having an epidemic
of pneumonia, and I found afterwards that the children were going
to pieces; I never saw anything like it, and I went to work in hearty
sympathy with the doctor— the contract doctor who was there— and
we had so many cases that were failing and going to pieces that they
finally got a compound microscope for me. I am a graduate phar-
macist, and have had a good course in bacteriologv. and wanted ta
help Dr. Anderson. Mr. Peairs bought a fine compound microscope
and I made all of the microscopic examinations for the school. The
sanitary conditions were dreadful. The children were just herded
together like sheep. Children who had hemarrhages and running
high temperatures were kept in a bed with some girls who did not
have any trouble. They would have a bunk made with possibly
30 children sleeping in it, head to head — all the heads put here
together (indicating), two girls in a bed — single beds. I took the
names of seven girls who were having hemorrhages and running
high temperatures — tubercular — to the otRcial matron one day and
begged her to change those girls, to take them away from the others
and not contaminate them all, and I could not get it done. She
said, I would break up the company. They all answered in com-
panies ; they were dressed in companies, and they slept in companies.
Senator Towxsend. You reported all that, did you?
Miss Ross. I did ; and out of that came the appointment of Joseph
A. Murphy to the Indian Service — out of that fight I put up for
eight long months, and was called everything under heaven but an
honest woman, and he finally sent a man there who was not con-
nected with the service at all, to make an examination and see
whether or not " that woman lied." I said, " We have sent home 50
cases of tuberculosis in the eight months I was there" and 10 or 15
of them were dead at that time; and I was unwise enough to make
the statement that I believed that there were 25 cases of tuberculosis
on the ground, and they had a man sent out there — Mr. Peirce. Of
course, he said I was trying to disrupt the school, making any such
statement as that. When Dr. Murphy came there and Avent over
that school and examined it carefully, they sent home more than 50
children in que day in the third stages of tuberculosis; and about
two vreeks after he got there, and they put 69, I think it was. undt^r
special observation, and sent them home Avithin the next two Aveeks.
They found altogether in the different stages of tuberculosis 21+
cases on the grounds, and out of the big dairy herd that Ave had— T
had asked and begged to have the dairy herd examined for tubercu-
losis and Avere told, '' We haA'e the finest herd in the State of Kan-
sas " — we Avere left with 7 coavs — everything Avas alive Avith tuber-
culosis.
Out of that greAv the little bit of supervision Ave ha\e had ahmg
medical lines.
I vvas made supervising nurse, and I haAe in my possession orders
from Mr. Valentine to be sent out, and if I reported tuberculosis at
a place to get out and clean it up: and if I ro]Ku-ted trachoma at a
place to get out and clean it up. But I Avas summaiMzed as the
"square peg, and the next thing she does out she goes," that is in
2216 MEDICAL SERVICE, BUHRAU INDIAN AFFAIRS.
Dr. Joseph xV. Murphy's file, signed '" Francis E. Leupp," and dated
May IT, 1909. The next "Miss Koss is a square peg and the next
thing" she does out she goes,'' was that I reported the whisky activity
of C. J. Crandall at Santa Fe, and I have been a marked woman
along those lines. T looked at the Singleton report, or extracts from
the Singleton report, and found where Mr. Abbott and Mr. Norris,
M'hen they went out to investigate Crandall, the record that Mr.
Singleton made was that they examined Mr. Ferris, the financial
clerk, and ]Miss Eobinson, the nurse, not to find out what about the
school, but to see if they could not find out something about Miss
Eoss. That is in the Singleton rej^ort. And as thev go on further
they sa3% "Miss Ross is a woman who has exceptional ability, is very
much interested in Indians, and doing a great work for them," or
something like that, "but she has meddled in other things, and she
lias reported about other things," — just like a decent woman would
be sent to a place like that up there and told " You are to close your
eyes, and if you can not do it, and everybody is opposed to you, shut
your mouth and draw your salary. What is it to jou if those people
are ruined body and soul ? Shut your mouth and go on." And now
I have paid penalty for it.
Senator Townsend. That will be enough.
Miss Eoss. I guess I have finished.
Senator Lane. There are some matters relating to general condi-
tions which I want Miss Ross to tell about. AYe will take them up
at the next session, and we will now adjourn until to-morrow night.
Miss Ross. I Avant to go back to-morrow to Ohio.
Senator Lane. To-morrow?
Miss Ross. I am here at a big expense on my own personal account.
There is one othei' condition I would like to refer to. [To the
stenograi)her.] You may take this down, if you choose. Am I
under oath yet ^
Senator Lane. Oh, yes.
Miss Ross. I want to speak of the conditions I consider very wrong
and an injury to the Indians? I am leaving the work now and this
is my last say.
Pretty nearly three years ago — just three years ago — the teacher at
San Ildefonzo, X. Mex., in the Santa Fe Agency was asked to come
up to Santa Clara. The Indians loved her beyond anything I ever
saw, and she is certainly one of the best women I ever Iniew — one of
the most thoroughly qualified for her work. She was a teacher
there; she had been a public-school teacher for years, and after the
death of some of here loved ones, she took up missionary work for
the Congregational' bureau among the Spanish-speaking people.
After she had been thei-e a year or two she felt she did not knoAV
enough about methods, and so resigned and went to the ITniversity
of Chicago and took a two-years' course in sociology, and then
entered the Indian Service, and I tell you she is one magnificent
woman and a splendid worker, and the Indians absolutely swear by
her. She has done such good work. She had been two years at San
Ildefonzo. and the people at Santa Clara asked to have her trans-
ferred u]:> to them, and so she was transferred. They had a very
nice building they were using then for a school building, but for some
reason or other — I think because the owner of the building testified
in the whiskv case ajrainst Mr. Crandall — thev decided not to use
MEDICAL SERVICE, Bl'REAU INDIAN AFFAIRS. 2217
that building any more, and they just moved the school into the
little adobe building- with a mud roof. It was very poorly lighted
and not at all ventilated.
Senator Lane. Who is Mr. Crandall i He was the superintendent
of Santa P^e?
Miss Ross. No, sir ; he is the " blind-tiger man.'' They moved them
all into that little inadequate place. Most of the children have poor
eyes; many of them are diseased along other lines; they are scrof-
ulous and in bad condition. There was not the light nor' ventilation,
and a bad storm came on and it rained two or three days and they
were just drowned out and that teacher almost lost her life. She
was sick for weeks and weeks and had to be taken away, at big ex-
pense, to get over that piece of neglect. When she got "so she could
get up she wrote me a letter and'told me about it, and asked me if I
could not help her to get some other position where she could get
her health back, and I at once sent her letter on to my chief. I must
report all of these health conditions to my chief. I at once sent her
letter on, with the recommendation that — I made a protest against
the Indian children being made to suffer any such conditions as that.
I said, " Why do they not get the proper kind of a place to house
those children in school?" Dr. Murphy took that up with the Indian
Office, and I received a letter a short time afterwards sayincr that
they had — the plans were then underway to build a fine new school
plant at Santa Clara, and the next thing I heard was in a letter T
had from Miss Richardson, and she said, "Oh, Ave have a beautiful
plant under construction here," and I have not heard from her for I
do not know how long: I do not know when I have heard. I just
came across some information a few days ago, which I learned came
through an Indian; that the Indians knew of it and were ]:)rotesting
about it; and that in spite of it all the woman has had another awful
sick spell, due to exposure, the rain coming down and with just a
mud roof wetting everything. There was not a thing spared, and
she had an av,^ful sick spell as the result of it. These Indians have
occupied that mud shack, illy lighted, illy ventilated, with that mag-
nificent plant standing there completed for years. Mr. Brosius, the
Indians have taken that point up. have they not?
Mr. Brosius. Yes.
Miss Ross. That has been filed here : the inf oruuition has been tiled
here and is on file.
Mr. Brosius. It was filed to-night.
Miss Ross. That is an awful wrong to those people.
Senator Townsend. Do you know why that building stood idle?
Miss Ross. I think so. The Indians gave their reasons why. This
woman has opposed immorality in the village, so the Indians say.
I am right, am I ?
Mr. Brosius. Yes.
Miss Ross. The present superintendent took his cousin and put
him into the village to suppress the liquor traffic, and that is the
one village in which there are more than 300 teetotalers — where they
have a fine temperance organization. He sent him in there to sup-
press the liquor traffic and he got drunk and gave whisky to the
Indians; and he did more than that, he' took a woman right there in
the village and lived with her and introduced her as his
Senator Townsend. Who did this?
2218 MEDICAL SERVICE) BUREAU INDIAN AFFAIRS.
Miss Eoss. Why, the cousin of the superintendent.
Senator Townsend. Was he an employee of the Government?
Miss Eoss. He was there to suppress the liquor traffic. I suppose
you would call him a special agent.
Senator Lane. We have a special appropriation of $150,000 each
year for the payment of special agents who go around suppressing
the liquor traffic, and I have heard of similar occurrences on other
reservations.
Miss Eoss. You can verify what I am saying. It is on file here
in your own office. He took a woman and lived with her there and
introduced her as his sister, and she was not his sister at all, and the
Indians took it up and did the same thing, and they went to hunting
up for promiscuous wives also, and it seems that that teacher pro-
tested with all her might against that man coming into their vil-
lage, and as a result they have run on in their little mud shacks and
that fine place has stood idle.
Senator, you can find out whether I am telling you the truth on
that or not, because that is filed here.
Senator Townsend. I can not still understand why the department
would refuse to occupy that building.
Miss Eoss. You are getting at the thing now that all the rest of
us wonder at. That has been under our present commissioner; that
has not been under some man way back yonder.
Senator Townsend. Is it finished so they could use it?
Miss Eoss. Oh, I suppose so; it must be. It is a beautiful build-
ing. ^Vhy should they not finish it ?
Senator Townsend. Is it completed ?
Miss Eoss. Wliere is that report ? It is here.
Senator Townsend. The report itself will show. I thought you
yourself might loiow something about it.
Miss Eoss. I have not heard from that teacher since I don't know
when, because every letter she has written has been misinterpreted
and she has been classed as a square peg also. So we have sort of
drifted apart for mutual protection.
Senator Lane. We will now stand adjourned until to-morrow
night.
(Thereupon, at 11.25 p. m., the joint commission stood adjourned
to meet to-morrow. Tuesday. July 14. 1914, at 7.30 o'clock p. m.)
X
THE FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
JOINT COMMISSION OF THE
CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES
SIXTY-THIKD CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
TO
INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS
JULY 14, 1914
PART 17
Printed for the use of the Joint Commission
WASHINGTON
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFIOB
1914
Congress of the United States.
JOINT COMMISSION TO INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS.
Senators : Representatives :
JOE T. ROBINSON, Arkansas, Oftat/»«7». .JOHN H. STEPHENS, Texas.
HARRY LANE, Oregon. CHARLES D. CARTER, Oklahoma.
CHARLES E. TOWNSEND, Michigan. CHARLES H. BURKE, South Dakota.
R. B. Keaxi?;g, Arkansas, Secretary.
Ross Williams, Arkansas, Clerk.
II
THE FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES.
Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. C, Tuesday, July 11^, 19H.
The joint commission met in its room, No. 128, Senate Office Build-
ing, at 7.30 o'clock p m.
Present: Senator Lane (acting chairman).
Present also: Kedbird Smith, chief, and John R. Smith, inter-
preter, Cherokee Indians, representing the Kee-doo-wha Society.
STATEMENT OF CHIEF REDBIRD SMITH. OF THE KEE-DOO-WHA
SOCIETY, THROUGH JOHN R. SMITH, INTERPRETER.
Senator Lane. These Cherokees want to be heard? They have
been to the commissioner?
Mr: Keating. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. And they want
Mr. Kjcating. To present their case to the commission, I under-
stand. Senator.
Senator Lane. How long are you going to be in town?
Chief Kedbird Smith. I don't want to be here too long.
Senator Lane. Why?
The Interpreter. We are short of means.
Senator Lane. You can not afford to stay long?
The Interpreter. No.
Senator Lane. Have you come up here to present your matter to
this commission?
Chief Redbird Smith. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Did you come here with the intention of present-
ing your difficulties to this commission or to the Commissioner of
Indian Affairs?
The Interpreter. We presented our complaint to the commis-
sioner.
Senator Lane. I know; but what was your intention when you
came here? Your object in coming here was to present your troubles,
to the commissioner. Is that right?
Chief Redbird Smith. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Then why did you come to tliis commission ?
Chief Redbird Smith. Our reason is that where we live we are
crowded down, pressed down, to where we are. in a most destitute
condition, and the Government being our guardian, that is why we
come before the commission to present our true condition and our
wishes.
This delegation would suggest that its wishes would be for this
commission to visit our people to see for themselves the conilitiou
and what they want.
2219
2220 THE FIVE CIVILIZED TEIBES.
Senator Lane. Are any of your people destitute?
Chief Kedbikd SMrrn. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. How many did you tell me there were of your
people in Oklahoma where you live?
Chief Redbiud Smith. Yes, sir; in Oklahoma.
Senator Lane. How many?
Chief Redbikd SMrni. AVe have enrolled about 2,400.
Senator Lane. Two thousand four hundred?
Chief Eedbikd Smith. Yes; men, children, and women.
Senator Lane. Enrolled into a society?
Chief Redbikd Smith. Yes; the Kee-doo-wha Society.
Senator Lane. Vv^hat does that mean? What does that word
mean?
The Interpreter. That means several things to come together as
one.
Senator Lane. Working for a common object? Is that what you
mean?
The Interpreter. This word?
Senator Lane. Yes.
The Interpreter. That is all VvC know Avhat it means; several
things to come together as one.
Senator Lane. I see; a kind of "get-together club." Then your
condition is unsatisfactory?
Chief Redbird Smith. Yes ; it is not satisfactory, and it is a hard-
ship on us that we can not labor under, under the present conditions.
Senator Lane. You think it vrill result in the extermination of
your tribe?
Chief Redbird Smith. Yes, sir.
Senator Lane. Now, the Government has paid you for your lands,
has it not, and dissolved you as a tribal organization ?
Chief Redbird Smith. Yes, sir.
Mrs. Kellogg. As I understand it. Senator, it is not entirely ]jaid.
It is allotted them, and they still have some funds. Some of these
people have drawn the funds instead of the land, and some have not.
It is not entirely completed, as I understand it. Is not that true?
The Interpreter. Well, some of them have land. Some of them
didn't get no land ; they got money instead of land. Some of them
didn't get no land, neither money, and didn't even get all the land.
Senator Lane. Some of these 2,400?
The Interpreter. Yes; the most of these 2,400.
Senator Lane. They were left off the rolls?
The Interpreter. That is, I mean what is left off belongs to this
society.
Senator Lane. Now, did not the Government some years ago dis-
solve the nation ?
Mrs. Kellogg. Yes; they have just recently dissolved the whole
Cherokee tribal relationship.
Senator Lane. This gentleman you are talking to is a chief, is he?
Chief Redbird Smith. Chief of the Kee-doo-wha Society.
Senator Lane. Is he one of the tribal chiefs? Is he a Cherokee
chief ?
Mrs. Kellogg. He is the head chief of the several clans of the
Kee-doo-wha Society- -a religious organization.
THE FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 2221
CHiEy Redbird Smith. Not of the Cherokee Nation, but of the
Ivee-doo-wha Society.
Senator Lake. It is a sort of religious society, is it?
Chief Redbird Smith. Yes, sir.
Senator Lake. What religion are they working for? Are they
Christians, or not ?
Chief Redbird Smith. To worship God and live up to God's law.
We, as a God-fearing people, believe God has made law for the red
race of people, and given the color and language and the ways of
worship. That is God's law.
Senator Lane. Is it any different from the law He gives to the
Avhite men ?
Chief Redbird Smith. And the Avhite man's religion was given by
God, and the color, and the language, and the ways to worship CJod,
and that is his. That belongs to the white man, and I respect that,
and also I W'ant my own to be respected.
Senator Lane. Then you do not follow the same doctrine as the
white man? I am only asking this for information — not criticizing
you at all.
Chief Redbird Smith. No; we are not folloAving the white man's
religion. We respect it as a brotherhood, as one Father.
Mrs. Kellogg. Let me add this: In their society they proliibit
liquor and are absolutely effective about it. They do not allow tlieir
society to dissipate. They will not allow illegitimacy nor mixing
with the colored or pale-faced people.
Senator Lane. Now, then, as a religious association and for your
benefit financially, you wash the Government to allow you to organize
this society and secure lands for yourselves and go there and live
thpre? Is that right?
Chief Redbird Smith. Yes.
Senator Lane. As I understand it, you wish the Government to
assist you in this by giving you lands?
Chief Redbird Smith. Yes.
Senator Lane. That is what you came here for?
Mrs. Kellogg. They did not understand that. They already have
the land. They want the (government to take back these allotments
and sell it as a Avhole and buy them some other property, for them
to have the title in their own name, to have a community ]u-operty.
Senator Lane. Is that riglit?
Chief Redbird Smith. Yes.
Senator Lane. That is what it is?
Chief Redbird SMiTiL-And if it so that the Government can do
that, we wish the Kee-doo-wha Society to say where they should be
located.
Senator Lane. Well, have vou selected any place that you prefei*?
Chief Redbird Smith. We have not; but, then, if that is granted
by the Government, we can investigate and locate •» suitable phice.
Senator Lane. I see. The Kickapoos took a great liking to Mexico
and moved down there, about a thousand mik's iiiside of the lioundary
line. Would you like to go down in that country?
Chief Redbird Smith. No; we would not like to go to Mexico.
Senator Lane. All right, gentlemen. Now, then, the Kickapoos,
you may tell your father, did not like the white man's ways, nor his
2222 THE FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES.
religion, and a whole lot of other things about him, so they packed
their grips and struck out for the interior of Mexico.
Chief Redbird Smith. AVell, we don't dislike the white man's
ways. We are only contending for our rights.
Senator Lane. As I understand you, you have not enough money
to stay here very long and use up much time in presenting your peti-
tion. Is that true ?
Chief Redbird Smith. Yes; we want to be on as little expense as
possible. We are from the very poorest class of people, and can not
afford much expense.
Senator Lane. And you came here especially to present this peti-
tion to secure this right?
Chief Redbird Smith. Yes, sir. We would be more glad to see
the Government commission come there amongst us and see the
exact, true condition and the wishes of the people. It is the main
thing we would be glad to see.
Senator Lane. The main thing was to get the commission to go
down there?
The Interpreter. Yes.
Senator Lane. This commission?
The Interpreter. Yes; to see if that is the condition.
Chief Redbird Smith. If the commission should so decide to
visit us, this society would get together at one place somewhere and
come in.
Senator Lane. Well. I will say to you that this commission has
not the power to grant your Avishes. All the commission could do
would be to recommend it to Congress, and I presume that the com-
missioner himself — Commissioner Sells — has not the authority to
give you what you ask. It would have to be done by an act of Con-
gress. I think I am right in that, although I am not sure. So it
will be slow.
(The foregoing statement was interpreted to Chief Redbird
Smith.)
Senator Lane. Now, you people having been allotted your lands,
you are citizens now, are j^ou not, and voters?
Chief Redbird S:mith. We have not voted since statehood.
Senator Lane. But you could Aote if you wanted to?
Chief Redbird Smith. Yes.
Senator Lane. Are you held as wards of the Government ?
Chief Redbird S:mith. Yes.
Senator Lane. Can you sell your property?
Chief Redbird Smith. Yes; we can sell portions of it. They are
selling land all the time.
Senator Lane. And give deed to it?
Chief Redbird vSmith. Yes.
Senator Lane. Why don't you sell your land and go and form
your society?
The Interpreter. We could not sell all of our land.
Senator Lane. "WHiv?
The Interpreter. That is the way they hold us.
Senator Lane. Then here are people, as I understand it, who are
held as Avards in part. Their property is held for them by the Gov-
ernment. They have no right to sell it and dispose of it and go anf'
form their association and move off to themselves. Is that right ^
THE FIVE CIVILIZED TRIBES. 2223
The I>'TERPRETER. They can sell certain portions of it; that is. the
surplus land, but the homestead we are not allowed to sell.
Mrs. Kellogg. The holdings in Oklahoma are different from other
holdings.
Senator Lane. Are these what they call restricted Indians?
Mrs. Kellogg. Are you still restricted since this new law went
into effect?
The Interpreter. I don't know anything about that.
Mrs. Grey. The restrictions Avere just removed the 1st of July.
An order was made to sell all of the tribal land, and they have $i5
apiece that will come to every member of the ti-ibe. I think they
can sell everything excepting their homesteads. There is a resti'ic-
tion on the homesteads.
Senator Lane. Then they are partly restricted and partly nnie-
stricted ?
Mrs. Grey. No; they are entirely unrestricted excepting that one
thing. The tribe is no more a tribe.
Senator Lane. It is an ex-tribe, but they have not become full-
fledged free men yet?
Mr. Kellogg. Senator, they are given trust patents and not fee
patents. They can not do that until the time expires.
Senator Lane. How long is that?
Mr. Kellogg. I do not know.
Senator Lane. I was in the committee room of the Committee
on Claims the other day, and there came in a claim against the Gov-
ernment for. I think, about $1,000,000, and the Government had an
offset to it of $1,000,000, one of $500,000 against the State of Georgia,
and the same amount against the State of Tennessee, where many,
many years ago, sometime before the Civil "War. they loaned those
States $1,000,000 of Cherokee money, and I have been unable to get
track of it in the department yet. They say they will have to go
through all the old files and books to find out where that is. It has
been lost sight of. you know, by the Indian dej^artment.
I will present this matter to the commission here, and also the
commissioner, myself. I do not knoAv what they will do about it.
(The foregoing statement was interpreted to Chief Redbird
Smith).
Senator Lane. How many days are you going to remain in town?
Chief Redbird Smith. Well, we want to go right away.
Senator Lane. What do you mean -by " right away "? To-morrow,
or the next day?
Chief Redbird Smith. Yes: we would like to go to-morrow or the
next clay.
Senator Lane. How long have you been here?
Chief Redbird Smith. We came hei'e on the 2nd.
Senator Lane. I presume, so fai- as your matters are concerned,
you may as well go.
Chief Redbird Smith. Under the present condition our lands,
when an allotment is sold they have them divided up among the heirs
of the allotment, and our coming generation, the way it is going,
will have no homes, no lands. So if we can sell our allotments and
buy a piece of land somewhere, and live there in common as a whole,
we Avould have a home for the coming generation, all e(|ual. Tiiat
is the intention — to make a living as far as we can.
2224 THE FIVE CIVILIZED TKIBES.
Senator Lane. All right. I suppose that as far as this commis-
sion is concerned, and anything they can do for you, you may go
home any time you want to. I will present the matter to them.
(The foregoing statement was interpreted to Chief Kedbird
Smith.)
Senator Lane. We have no authority. We would have to present
it to Congress.
Mrs. Kellogg. This delegation wants to go back with a definite
message.
Senator Lane. What did Commissioner Sells tell you to do ?
Chief Redbird Smith. We asked the commissioner to segregate
the Kee-doo-wah Society, and he answered that we w^ere citizens of
the United States, and told us that he did not see it was necessary
to send any commission out there to investigate. He said the only
way he seen for us to do was just to go on living like a white man.
Senator Lane. Do you want to do that?
Chief Redbird Smith. No, sir.
(Thereupon at 8 :15 o'clock p. m. the joint commission proceeded to
the consideration of other business.)
X
m
SEKIAL ONE
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
JOINT COMMfSSION OF THE
CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES
SIXTY-THIRD CONGRESS
THIRD SESSION
TO
INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS
DECEMBER 16, 1914
PART 18
Printed for the use of the Joint Commisaion
WASHINGTON
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFPIOB
1914
Congress of the United States.
JOINT COMMISSION TO INVESTIGATE INDIAN AFFAIRS.
Senators : Representatives :
JOE T. ROBINSON, Arkansas, Chairman. JOHN H. STEPHENS, Texas.
HAURY LANE, Oregon. CII \RLES D. CARTER, Oklahoma.
CHARLES E. TOWNSEND, Michigan. CHARLES H. BURKE, South Dakota.
R. B. Keating, Arkansas, Secretary.
Ross Williams, Arkansas, Clerk.
II
CHEEK NATION.
Part 18, Serial No, 1.
WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 16, 1914.
Joint Commission to Investigate Indian Affairs,
Washington, D. C.
The joint commission met in the committee room of the Committee
on Indian Affairs of the United States Senate, Capitol Building, at
2 o'clock p. m.
Present: Senators Robinson (chairman). Lane, and Townsend;
Eepresentatives Stephens and Burke.
The Chairman. Judge Allen, attorney for the Creek Indians, is
present and desires to present two matters of interest to this com-
mission,
STATEMENT OF HON. R. C. ALLEN, ATTORNEY FOR THE CREEK
NATION.
Mr, Allen, Gentlemen, I want to present to this commission the
reasons why I think a joint resolution introduced in the House by
Mr. Murray and in the Senate by Senator Owen should be enacted
into law ; also why a resolution that has the sanction of the Indian
Department, and which will be introduced this afternoon in the
Senate by Senator Owen, should be enacted into law.
Representative Burke. What is there about this proposition that
brings it before this joint commission, which does not initiate or
report legislation, instead of having it presented to the committees
of the House and Senate that have the jurisdiction of the subject?
The Chairman. I will answer that. As to one of the matters, at
least, a very extensive investigation will be necessary before the facts
can become known. It may not be necessary so far as the i)assage of
the resolutions is concerned, but it is necessary as to the obtaining
of the facts, and that necessity will appear as we proceed.
Representative Burke. This has only come to my notice for the
first time to-day, I find it is a joint resolution, and I infer, from
what Mr. Allen stated in his brief preliminary, that he was to
make an argument on the supposition that this was a committee,
sitting here with authority to act with reference to this resolution.
The Chairman. He understands that this commission only has
power to recommend and that it has no power to rejwrt legislation.
Mr. Allen. I simply want to get the members of this commission
interested in the passage of this resolution, if they feel about this
matter as I do,
2225
2226 CREEK NATION.
Representative Stephens. This is now before both committees, the
committee in the House and also in the connnittee in the Senate.
Mr. Allen. I came here at the invitation of Senator Robinson.
The Chairman. ]Mr. Allen was talking to me about it the other
evening. He said he wanted to present the matter to some tribunal
that would hear it. I told him we would give him a hetiring before,
this commission. One of these resolutions contemplates an extended'
investigation. I do not Imow whether it would be possible for this
commission to make the investigation or whether it will only recom-
mend that legislation for a special investigation be made.
Representative Bukke. Suppose this commission should hear ^Ir.
Allen, at much length, and it should conclude, in its wisdom, that
the enactment of the resolution wase desirable: then the resolution
comes before the Senate Committee on Indian Affairs, which it
would have to be in order to be reported
The Chairman. Certainly.
Representative Burke. And some Senator, not a member of this
commission, who was seeking light, wanted to know something about
it. Would not the matter have to be gone over again?
The Chairman. That is true of any investigation this commission
makes that contemplates legislation. If we were to make investiga-
tions on the theory that some other tribunal might also investigate it
we would never get any investigation completed.
Representative Burke. I do not want to be technical, but I do not
want to spend a lot of time on this matter in one tribunal when I
will have to spend an equal amount of time in another one. Here is
a proposition that is pending in Congress
The Chairman. At the time he was speaking to me about it there
were no propositions pending. We discussed the propriet}^ of it.
and upon the faith of his statement to me as to what the facts were,
I suggested to him that he either have the resolutions introduced or
legislation introduced covering it, so as to get the matter before
Congress.
One of the matters he wished to refer to or has in mind relates
to what he alleges to be the double enrollment of a large number of
Creek Indians, by which property to the value of many millions of
dollars has passed into the hands of certain Indians who had already
been allotted. That is certainly a matter proper here and appropri-
ate to the investigation of this commission. Here is a chance to
recover back something; here is a chance to make an investigation
that will aid the Government in preserving a part of the assets of this
tribe of Indians. I think it is of infinitely more importance to make
that sort of an investigation than to make one that would be fruitless.
Representative Burke. If the statement he wishes to make is for
the purpose of bringing to this commission a subject that he thinks
the commission ought to investigate, that is a different proposition;
but I understand him to say that he is here to make an argument in
favor of the passage of this resolution.
The Chairman. I do not think it makes any difference wdiat his
purpose is in bringing the facts before the commission. If the facts
concern a matter that ought to be investigated by the commission,
then we will determine whether or not we should investigate it fur-
ther. That is my idea. Of course, if the commission does not want
to hear him, that is the end of the matter. I think from the state-
CREEK NATION, 2227
ment he made to me that somebody should hear him in order to get
the matter before Congress.
Mr. Allen. I want to say this briefly, Mr. Burke: That I have
been treated in a spirit of absolute fairness by every member and
with more consideration than anyone deserves' by the chairman of
both the House and Senate committees. I am not complaining. I
do not Avant this appearance to be indicative of any complaint of
my treatment by either of those committees. I have not urged a
meeting of either of the committees upon this special program. I
believe that there is now great danger of millions of dollars' worth
of property that now belongs to the Creek Nati(m either being lost
ultimately, and soon, to the tribe as a whole or to individual meml^ers
of the tribe. I believe that by Congress giving assent to this program
I can recover for the Creek Nation, within a period of the next year
or so, several millions of dollars, and I want to get the support of
every man that I can for this proposition.
Representative Stephens. The first sentence of this resolution, I
think, indicates that the Secretary of the Interior has the right to
make this investigation himself. I find in this resolution this:
That the Secret;u-y of the Interior be, and he is hereby, juilhorized and
directed to causa to be made an investigation concerning duplicate and fraudu-
lent enrollments and allotments of members of the Creek Tribe of Indians in
Oklahoma.
Has he not already the right to do that? And you appropriate
later in this paper $25,000.
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Representative Stephens. Is there not a sum that we appropriate
in all of our annual bills, a lump sum that can be used for this
purpose ?
Mr. Allen. There is not a dollar available for this purpose.
Representative Stephens, That can be be used for an investigation
of this kind through the department or through its agent?
Mr. Allen. No, sir.
Senator Toavnsend, The way I look at it is this : I see the point
from Congressman Burke's standpoint, that so far as the passage of
this resolution is concerned this commission is not so much interested
in that as it is in the facts. The witness has already stated that the
Creek Indians are in danger of losing their property. That must
be because of some fraud or mismanagement somewhere. This com-
mission is interested in knowing those things. So far as that is con-
cerned, if there is anything going on out there with reference to these
tribes, or the individuals, why, this commission should know that,
because that is one of the things it was created to determine;
although, I say as Mr. Burke says, that we are not particidarly inter-
ested in some resolution pending in Congress, unless there is back
of this something that ought to be disclosed.
The Chairman. That is exactly what I thought about it. We
have nothing to do with the resolution, unless it subsequently ajipears
that they are in the proper form and will accomplish the thing we
think ought to be accomplished.
Representative Burke. So far as I have been informed, I have
been very strongly of the opinion that the resolution similar to this
ought to be passed and reported. I have not learned very much that
would seem to indicate that there would be any serious objection to
2228 CREEK NATION.
it; but I can not see why this commission should be sitting on this
resohition any more than on any other bill.
The Chairman. We are not sitting on the resolution. We are sit-
ting for the purpose of hearing a statement of facts. He has seen
fit to bring the matter up in that way, and that is all there is about
that. I did not even know that the resolutions had been prepared,
nor did I know what form they had taken. I suggested to him that if
his statements to me were correct, there ought to be some congres-
sional action, and a mere investigation would not be sufficient.
Shall we hear Mr. Allen or not?
Senator Tow^nsend. I think we ought to hear him, Mr. Chairman,
as long as you have called him here. We can see where the thing
drifts, and we can tell after a while whether it is a matter that we
care to discuss.
Representative Stephens. How long Avill it take you, Mr. Allen?
Mr. Allen. I am going to consume but a \ery little time.
Senator Lane. I do not know anything about this resolution. I
have not seen it. I do not know what it purports to be or intends to
do; but if he has any facts to present which are of any benefit to the
situation we are investigating I believe that we should give him free
license to go ahead and state them.
The Chairman. Shall we hear Judge Allen for a while?
Eepresentative Stephens. It strikes me, Mr. Chairman, that we
will be duplicating work, but I am perfectly- willing to spend a few
minutes on it.
Mr. Allen. I am willing to do whatever this commission wants
done. I want to familiarize this commission with the matter as
much as I can.
The Chairman. You may proceed with your statement. You need
not present the resolution, but you may just state the facts.
Mr. Allen. In the Creek Nation, gentlemen, lies the Cushing oil
field, the Glenn pool, and nearly all of the oil-producing pools of that
State. There is at least three-fourths, and maybe mere, of the oil
that is produced in Oklahoma to-day produced in the Creek Nation.
During the last 10 years there has been sold approximately $500,-
000,000 worth of oil from the Creek Nation alone.
When these lands were allotted, what is now the Cushing field, the
most valuable oil-producing field in America, probably, was consid-
ered of little or no value, and there were very few of the citizens of
the Creek Nation that selected allotments in that vicinity. Congress
authorized the arbiti'ary enrollment of those who refused to receive
an allotment or to select an allotment, which resulted in an arbitrary
alloting of nearly the entire Cushing field. Hundreds of Indians and
of freedmen who had received allotments in other sections of the
Creek Nation under their Indian or their English names Avere foiuid
upon the old 1890 and 1895 rolls, and the Dawes Commission, find-
ing that those names had not been contained in a list of the citizens
who had selected allotments, arbitrarily allotted them. In that mat-
ter many have received tw^o allotments and several have received
three allotments. A great many have been allotted v,'ho w^ere living
in 1890 and 1895 but who died prior to April 1, 1899.
It is to recover those allotments that we are instituting suits in the
United States Court for the Eastern District of Oklahoma.
CEEEK NATION. 2229
Several years ago a suit Avas brought by the Creek Nation to recover
the allotment of Barney Thlocco, upon the theory that he had died
prior to April 1, 1899. Numerous citizens in the Creek Nation made
affidavit and some appeared before the commission and testified that
he died prior to April 1, 1899. Upon that proof the suit was brought.
There was no answer, and judgment by default was entered against
the heirs of Barney Thlocco, canceling that allotment. About that
time it was proven of oil value by the production in that vicinity, and
then numerous people, claiming to represent Barney Thlocco as his
heirs, came in and filed a motion to vacate and set aside that judg-
ment. The judgment was vacated and set aside.
Senator Towkse>;d. In what court was that brought?
Mr. Allen. In the United States Court for the Eastern District of
Oklahoma. That case is now pending. Three wells have been drilled
into the sand on that allotment. They came in with flush produc-
tions of seven and eight thousand barrels a day each. The man who
is operating that property testified net long ago, under oath, in the
United States court at Muskogee, that it would support 36 wells, and
that he could see no reason why anj^ of them Avould fall short of the
wells alread}'' drilled in and upon tlie premises.
Eepresentative Stephens. What was the number of acres?
Mr. Allen. One hundred and sixty acres. The estimated value of
that allotment is $2,000,000.
On the roll opposite the name of Barne}^ Thlocco, who was arbi-
trarily given this allotment, was the notation: "Dead, 1900." Sev-
eral of the men, including the United States superintendent at Mus-
kogee, will swear that that is the w^orcl that appears there. Recently
in looking over those records we discovered that instead of t!.v' word
"Dead, 1900" is the word "Died, 1900." In that case there are
some 75 citizens of the Creek Nation who are claiming to be the heirs
of Barney Thlocco, all claiming under different rules of descent.
Some time ago, by virtue of the fact that some of those people
were conflicting with others in the testimony the}'^ were giving on
other points, it was seen that they were going to be confused to such
an extent that their testimon}^ would not be believed as to the date of
the death of Barney Thlocco. The}'^ all had a meeting at Muskogee;
they went into the United States court and secured an order from
the court — and I think the court properly made the order — permit-
ting them to withdraw all of their answers and file one joint answer
joining issue with the Creek Nation upon the question of the date of
the death of Barney Thlocco, and then, in the event of the defeat of
the Creek Nation in that case, to litigate among themselves the ques-
tion of who are the heirs of Barney Thlocco.
I think, conservatively, there has been spent in the employment of
detectives and of special agents by the defendants in that case over
$100,000 to-day, besides the employment of the best legal talent in
Oklahoma. There are at least 25 of the leading lawyers in that State
in the case on the side of the defendants to defeat the claim of the
Creek Nation.
Representative Burke. Is there any question involved in that liti-
gation other than the fact as to the date when this allottee died ?
Mr. Allen. We recently went to the circuit court of appeals in the
Hawkens case, United States v. Hawkens, and I have the opinion
2230 CREEK NATION.
here. The court in that ease held that Avhere the allottee was dead
at the time of the issuance of the certificate that no title had passed
out of the Creek Nation. Before the rendition of that opinion all
of the defendants had filed their answers in this case, in which they
had alleged that he died in May, 1899, three or four years before the
issuance of the certificate. If the circuit court of appeals does not
reverse itself, or is not in turn reversed by the Supreme Court of the
United States, we can win it upon the law. But I think it is danger-
ous to undertake to stand upon the law in the case.
Representative Burke. I do not want to interrupt your argument,
but is the purpose in stating what you have just stated that you
want Congress to authorize the use of some of the Creek funds in
order to more effectively prosecute that suit? Is that your propo-
sition ?
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. Is there anything else involved in it that
suggests your presenting it here at this time ?
Mr. Allen. That is all; and to show to the commission what is
being done by the defendants in this case to defeat the Creek Nation.
Senator Lane. Who are the defendants, please?
Mr. Allen. There are 60 or 75 of them.
Senator Lane. Are they Creek Indians or white men?
Mr. Allen. Of course they are all Indians.
Representative Burke. Negroes, mostly, are they not?
Senator Lane. But they are all members of the nation?
Mr. Allen. Yes: they are all citizens of the Creek Nation.^ Nearly
all of them, though, have either sold or leased to oil companies.
The Chairman. Is there any effort being made to conceal the testi-
mony or to confuse the Government in its effort to get testimony ?
Mr. Allen. We think so ; and a number of the witnesses who testi-
fied heretofore and made affidavits that Barney Thlocco had died
prior to April 1, 1899, are testifying that they never made such
affidavits and that the fact is that he died in May, 1899. They are in
the pleadings in that one case.
The Chairman. How many cases are there, all told, that are pro-
spective or that have already been brought?
Mr. Allen. Fifty-four that I now have on my desk in Muskogee,
and you could not pile the papers in those cases on the table here.
The Chairman. Do you know whether there are other cases nec-
essary to be brought or not?
Mr. Allen. I think so. They keep coming in my office at the rate
of five or six a week.
The Chairman. In talking this matter over with me, you will
recall, you said it would be necessary to have a considerable fund for
the investigation of these cases.
Mr. Allen. I am going to reach that in just a moment.
The Chairman. Very well ; go ahead in your own way, then.
Senator Townsend. Do you claim that there was anything irregu-
lar in the action of the department in forcing the allotment upon
these Indians ?
Mr. Allen. I claim that in doing it they allotted to many of the
Indians in the Creek Nation who had received allotments and many
who had died prior to April 1, 1899. They acted honestly in making
these allotments, however.
CBEEK NATION. 2231
do'^L^ C^^^«^^^- Explain to Senator Townsend how they came to
Mr. Allen. The commission met at Okmulo-ee the cUv i.pfnvo ih^
ra .fication of the agreement of 1901, I beJI^eTt wL "TW ound
\hf.7F ,^3tizen of the Creek Nation who was not enrolled before
thp rt^ht'f'''' "^ /''* agreement would thereafter be deprived of
the right to an allotment in the Creek Nation Th^^r f^^i 1 {J
1890 and 1895 rolls of the Creek Nation andTey pTit 'o'n hose'ron^-
on he roll approved by the Creek council-every peison that thev
could find on either the 1890 or 1895 rolls who had not Sected .Hot
ment. In that way they enrolled thousands withoutly ev den^
all as to their present status. ^ ti^iuence ai
Representative Burke. That was probably on the theory that fliPv
could e immate, but if they did not enroll them t would "L too hte
to enroll them at some future time.
Mr. Allen. Yes, sir.
Representative Burke. There were a number of Indians or citi-
«<?' r 'li^V^^f' 5"/^^^^' ^^"^^ «f ^^'l^on^ ^ere denomiL^ted as
tn ..If ' .^^^S^i^hT^ t« \c«ept allotments, and the commission h'd
to arbitrarily allot them. Is that not true?
Mr. Allen. Yes; and it was upon the theorv of the refusal of
granted ^''''^^'^ '''' allotment that that authority was
Representative Burke. And in this matter that you are now dis-
cussing, at the time the lands were allotted, they were of very littie
It any value : that is, they were not valuable lands, were not known
to be valuable?
Mr. Allen. That is the reason thev were not selected.
Representative Burke. You do not claim anv irregularity as far
as any officials of the Government are concerned" in a way that would
suggest malfeasance in office, do you ?
Mr. Allen. I am not impugning the motive of anv officer of the
Government who made those allotments.
Representative Burke. I understand. You are simply discussing
the conditions that exist there, and you think we would be justified in
using some of the Creek Nation funds to conduct an investigation and
carry on litigation which would be desirable to the interests of the
nation ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Senator Tow^nsend. Do you think that thev acted within their
legal powers?
Mr. Allen. I think so. But, like a court, where they made mis-
takes, those mistakes can be corrected, but only by the' decree of a
court of competent jurisdiction. I do not think the Secretary of the
Interior has any right to cancel a single one of those allotments. I
know he has not.
Representative Stephens. Is it not true that a great many of the
Indians have both English names and Indian names, and tliat these
duplications came up, in many instances, by giving an Indian an
allotment in his English name and afterwards giving him an allot-
ment in his Indian name?
Mr. Allen. Yes. I am going to bring up one of those instances
in just a moment.
Representative Stephens. That is what I thought.
2232 CREEK NATION.
Mr. Allex. Following up this Barney Thlocco case, a freedman by
the name of David Bowlegs filed upon this allotment. Upon the
affidavit of the mother of David Bowlegs and numerous other affi-
davits, to the effect that he was not living and that this man who had
tried to file was Davis Bowlegs, and that he w^as impersonating Davis
Bowlegs, his name was stricken from the roll.
Senator Townsexd. Whose name?
Mr. Allen. The name of David Bowdegs. Mr. Mott and Mr.
IMeserve and other lawj^ers representing David Bowlegs recently
filed a mnndamus proceeding in the Supreme Court of the District
of Columbia to compel the Secretary of the Interior to allot to David
Bowlegs the Barney Thlocco lands upon the theory that the Secre-
tary of the Interior was without authority or power to strike his
name from the roll, and that this allotment deed is void which was
issued to Barney Thlocco. and that it being a part of the domain of
the Creek Xation, as a citizen of that tribe he has a right to allot it.
The Supreme Court of the District of Columbia decided that case
adversely to David Bowlegs and he has appealed to the court of ap-
peals. He says that he is coming to the Supreme Court of the
United States with that case. Numerous others are contemplating
like procedure now.
The Emma Coker case is another case of vast importance. That
allotment is Avorth approximately $1,000,000. One Lula Butler, a
Creek freedwoman, has tried to file upon that allotment. Emma
Coker was allotted under the name of Ilettie Lena.
Representative Stephens. Was that her Indian name?
Mr. Allex. That was her English name. She drcAv her allotment
in 1895 under her Indian name of Emma Coker. The Daw^es Com-
mission at Okmulgee, finding that name upon the roll, furnished her
an allotment in the Cushing field. We are bringing suit now — I
have the bill prepared but have not filed it — to cancel that allot-
ment. Lula Butler, as a Creek freedwoman, as I say, has tried to
file upon that allotment; also a minor freedman by the name of
Quentin Garrett has filed upon a portion of this allotment. I have
yesterday's Times-Democrat, which contains this notice:
W. V. Thraves bought two 20-acre filings at the court sale in Muskogee, pay-
ing therefor $100 bonus and one-fourth royalty, agreeing to pay the costs of
any suits in defense of the title. One is a part of the Tommy Atlvins allotment
in section 4-18-7 and the other the Emma Coker aloltment in section 16-18-7. Mr.
Thraves holds considerable interest in the Barney Thlocco litigation through a
lease on 150 acres from Jack E. Wilson.
The Thomas Atkins allotment is worth $1,000,000. All of the
people that are trying to file, and that I am trying to keep from
filing, have already sold or leased their interest in the Creek Nation.
Senator Towxsexd. Who has charge of the filing?
Mr. Allex. The Dawes Commission at Muskogee. The Secre-
tary of the Interior has power to review it.
Senator Towxsexd. Does he loiow about these facts?
Mr. Allex. Yes. He is urging immediate action upon these joint
resolutions, withdrawing them from allotment.
Representative Stephexs. This resolution does not do that.
Mr. Allen. The Secretary of the Interior is declining to permit
them to file upon these allotments.
Senator Townsend. That is what I was g;oing to. say, that he can
protect them.
CREEK XATIOX. 2233
Kepresentative Burke. I presume the theory of Judge Allen is
that no matter if the Secretary does that, if the applications are
AYithm the law they might acquire a vested right.
The Chairman. The question is whether or not the lands, which
have a great oil value, as he has stated, should be permitted to be
allotted by any individual member of a tribe or whether they should
be held as an asset of the tribe.
Representative Burke. As you Imow, there has been an effort made
to take two or three million dollars out of the Treasury of the United
States to equalize the Creek allotments on the basis of $1,04:0 because
of the fact that there were a lot of newborns there, and it was
claimed there was not enough land left; that there were lands that
were allotted fictitiously or erroneously 10 or 12 years ago. My
notion would be, offhand, that instead of allotting them now to
claimants who may have a technical right that they ought to belong
to the tribe as a whole : that they could be sold to produce the money
necessary to make up the equalization, instead of coming to the Fed-
eral Treasury and asking us to do it-. Another thing; it was never
intended for people to be permitted to take an allotment of land
worth $2,000,000. If there is any way to save this property for the
nation, it ought to be done.
The Chairman. Their proposition is that the Secretary of the In-
terior has no discretion in the matter. When they apply they have
the legal right and they acquire it. If that is the case, somebody
ought to act promptly. My information is that in all probability a
decision in the Barney Thlocco case will be rendered very soon, in
which event they expect to immediately have their rights fixed under
the present law.
Mr. Allex. They can secure vested rights through filing.
Representative Burke. And have those persons who are seeking
these allotments any rights different from tliose of the thousands of
applicants that are down there ip the Five Tribes seeking to get on
the rolls? In other words, was not the enrollment complete under
the legislation that was enacted for the allotting of that land, so that
everybody is supposed to have been allotted?
Mr. Allex. These people have a different status, by reason of the
fact that they are enrolled citizens of the Creek Tribe.
The Chairman. And they are entitled to allotment.
Mr. Allex. We are contending that this David Bowlegs is an
impersonation of the real David Bowlegs, and that he is not entitled
to allotment; but as to Quintin Garrett, as to Lula Butler, and as
to Jack Elton Wilson, they are newborn freedmen. who filed upon
some other land. They had a contest over their allotment that re-
sulted adversely to them.
Representative Burke. Assuming there is no dispute at all, and
that these lands were open to be disposed of without action by Con-
gress, are they eligible to be allotted under existing laAv ?
Mr. Allex. Yes; I think so; unquestionably.
Representative Burke. We included in the Indian appropriation
bill passed in the last session of Congress authority to enroll a nuiu-
ber of them.
Mr. Allex. Sixty-five.
Representative Burke. There were a number in the tribes, and
among them 65 in the Creek Nation. Wasn't that because they were
2234 CREEK NATION.
entitled to allotment, but had been overlooked, and we authorized
that they might be enrolled ?
Senator Townse^;d. Those were ones found to be entitled to enroll-
ment, but who did not get in in time.
RepresentaiA'e Burke. Yes. They are not enrolled and these are.
Is that the idea ?
Mr. Allen. I will explain that. I knew at that time the value of
these lands. I had not been attorney for the Creeks at that time
very long. I did not know there was an unallotted citizen in the
Creek Nation, and in providing for those 05 I provided in that
amendment that they should receive, in lieu of allotment, $800 in
cash. That keeps them from getting an allotment.
Representative Burke. I want to ask you one question, because it
is on my mind. Would it be feasible to permit the lands that are un-
allotted in the Creek Nation — would Congress have the power to
legislate that the surface might be allotted?
Mr. Allen. I have no objection to that.
Representative Burke. That could be done, could it not?
Mr. Allen. It has been done Avith the Chickasaw, Choctaw, and
Osage people. If that had been done in the beginning with the
Creek Nation the Creek Indians would now be the wealthiest tribe
of Indians in the world.
Representative Stephens. Would not that be a question of a reso-
lution? Could we not pass a resolution in both Houses that would
have the effect of law, that hereafter all allotments made to Creek
Indians should be surface allotments and should not carry either coal,
oil, or asphaltum?
Mr. Allen. That would be entirely satisfactory.
The Chairman. One of those 160-acre tracts has 36 wells on it.
It would not be a very attractive proposition if you only got the
surface. Of course it is the coal and oil that they want.
Representative Stephens. Would not that reach the very vital
point you are after, a resolution of that kind? I do not think a reso-
lution of that kind would meet with any opposition in either branch
of Congress, because they have followed that policy in the Choctaw
and Chickasaw country. The general idea of conservation all over
the country is to reserve to the United States Government and the
Indian tribes the coal, oil, asphaltum, etc. Would that not be a
happy solution of this matter?
Mr. Allen. It would meet with just as much opposition as the
present bill is meeting with.
Senator Townsend, You have stated that there have been dupli-
cate enrollments. Has that been a matter of good faith, just simply
a mistake made in doing it, or has there been fraud employed in en-
rolling these people under those names?
Mr. Allen. It has been a matter almost entirely of mistake, I
think. I can say to the credit of the men who have been engaged
in the work at Muskogee that there never has been any intimation of
fraud flowing from the administration of affairs by the Indian offi-
cers there. I think that they acted in perfect good faith, as did also
the Indians. They were given these allotments without their knowl-
edge or consent.
The Chairman, Thev were really forced on them.
CKEEK NATION. 2235
Mr. Allen. They were just arbitrarily allotted.
Eepresentative Burke. Assuming there were a good many of
them, as I presume there were, were they not mostly corrected by
voluntary acts on the part of the allottees or by subsequent action of
the department?
Mr. Allen. In this Emma Coker case, she came into the depart-
ment voluntarily and offered to surrender the Emma Coker allot-
ment, and that is worth over a million dollars.
The Chairman. She did that after it became worth that much?
Mr. Allen. After it became worth that much.
The Chairman. That is very gratifying.
Representative Burke. About how many cases do you think there
are ?
Mr. Allen. I have some evidence in 54 cases, and I think a
thorough investigation will disclose between 150 and 200 cases,
probably, in the Creek Nation. I made a speech to the Creek Council,
in which I urged every member of the council to give me all the
information he could obtain in his community as to the duplicate
allotments of members. Since that time Emma Coker and a number
of others have voluntarily come in.
Representative Burke.^ Of that number how many are there Avhere
claims are being made on the part of persons who are seeking to have
the land allotted to them?
Mr. Allen. Four.
Representative Burke. Only four?
Mr. Allen. Four. There are only four unallotted citizens in the
Creek Nation. . ,
Representative Burke. There are only four unallotted citizens?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. Thev are all after it, are they not?
Mr. Allen. Yes. They would give $10,000 apiece to find some
more, but they can not be found.
Representative Burke. I want to ask one more question while we
are on the subject for information. Assuming that these people are
entitled to allotment, and assuming that the law gives them the land
where they claim it, then, what can they do, under the law, with
regard to disposing of it, leasing it, or sellmg the right to take the
oil from it, etc., without the supervision or the authority ot the
Government? j. i. • x j
Mr. Allen. These are freedmen, and they are not restricted.
Representative Burke. They are not restricted?
Mr Allen. They have already sold. They would not be benefited
now by legislation that would permit them to receive these allot-
There is just one more case, that of Thomas Atkms, a case that I
think is one of the most flagrant cases that we have in the Creek
Nation In that case there are some 20 witnesses who have already
testified that he is the son of Minnie Atkins; she has testified posi-
tively that she gave birth to this child, giving the time and circum-
stances There are about as many witnesses who have sworn posi-
tively that he is the son of Nancy Atkins. Nancy Atkins swears
that she gave birth to him and gives the circumstances, the time and
place They both swear that he is is dead, and the oil companies
2236 CEEEK NATION.
have leased from both of these mothers. He has four fathers and
two Thomas Atkins have executed leases. This allotment is worth
$1,000,000.
1 think, gentlemen, if Ave are to be benefited by legislation that
we must get it soon. I wish that this committee could go to this oil
field, when this Congress adjourns, summons before it some of the oil
companies who are operating in the Creek Nation, and get, at first-
hand, the character of their dealings in Indian lands in that nation.
I believe it would be an education to this committee that would be
worth the trouble and the expense of the trip.
Senator Townsend. What do you know about the character of it?
Mr. Allen. I am not prepared to say, Senator. I have not been
given an opportunity, on account of the many other matters that re-
quire my immediate attention, to make the investigation that I want
to make and that I intend to make in the Creek Nation. I do know,
from the facts developed in the Thomas Atkins case, that they have
been employing every means, foul and fair
Senator Townsend. Who have?
Mr. Allen. The oil companies — that could be employed to ac-
quire these valuable allotments in the Cushing oil field.
Representative Stephens. If we were to give you the funds you
could institute these inquiries yourself and bring suits without any
congressional investigation?
Mr. Ali.en. Yes ; and I expect to do that.
Representative Bukke. I will say to you that there is not a doubt
in my mind, if you will pre])are a proper amendment to the Indian
appropriation bill, authorizing the use of a reasonable amount of the
Creek funds, that it will be incorporated in the bill at either or both
ends of the Capitol^ — the right given to use some of the money to
properly prosecute these cases and defend the rights of the Creek
Nation in these lands.
Mr. Allen. I Avas hoping that I could get you gentlemen suffi-
ciently interested in this matter tc hurry a special bill through Con-
gress in order that this fund might become available within a short
time for this purpose. I am not going to stay here this winter. I
have g(^t to be at home at work on these cases. We need this fund
to carry on this investigation now.
Representative Stephens. I think the Indian appropriation bill
will pnss as soon as we get a resolution through on it, and that is the
quickest and easiest way.
Ihe Chairman. They have the bill ready to report now, I under-
stand.
Representative Burke. We could not get action on an independent
mntter in the House, possibly, in tlie present session.
Representative Stephens. It wnll be passed right away
Mr. Allen (interrupting). What do you think about progress
that could be made with a resohition to withdraw the lands from
allotment ?
The Chairman. I think that ought to be done before any rights
have become vested.
Representative Burke. If there are only four persons who are
entitled to allotment it is not very important, although I am in-
clined to think it ought to be done.
CKEEK NATION. 2237
Mr. Allex. But those four allotments are worth possibly
$5,000,000.
llepresentative Burke. But no other person except those four
haAe any status, as I understand it?
Mr. Allen. No: but those four allotments will more than equalize
all the allotments in the Creek Nation. I think they are the four
most valuable allotments in the Creek Nation.
Representative Stephens. WHiatever rights those four allottees
have to this land have become vested in them, and any legislation
that we would pass now would not affect their interest in them.
Mr. Allen. No, sir. If this legislation is delayed until after the
decree of the United States court cancelling the outstanding patents
to these allotments, we can not affect them.
Kepresentative Burke. Is there anything in the claim that rour
proof of erroneous allotments of these lands depends upon these
claimants to the tracts?
JSIr. Allen. They have based that conclusion upon the fact that
we have no fund that v.e can resort to to make this investigation. If
3'^ou will give me that fund then there can be no merit in such a con-
tention.
Representative Burke. It is your idea that you could get the evi-
dence independent of those claimants?
Mr. Allen. We can get the evidence if we can get the fund to use
for that purpose.
Representative Burke. It does not seem to me that it ought to be
very hard to prove the date upon which a person has died ?
iVIr. Allen. I do not want to use the evidence, and would not use
it, as I have told several of the people who are getting testimony
in behalf of these people who are trying to file, because I have not
confidence in one of the leading men who is getting this testimony,
one Coody Johnson, a Creek frcedman, whose time has been entirely
employed for the past year in securing testimony in some cases to
defeat the right of the Creek Nation by proving the allottees died
since April 1, 1899, and in others to bolster up the case of the Creek
Nation in order to vest title in the persons who are filing upon the
allotments.
The Chairman. Your idea is that some action should be taken at
least toward withdrawing these allotments from entry as soon as
possible?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
The Chairman. Otherwise, from the decision in the case you have
referred to, at least part of them will probably be lost thereby ?
Mr. Allen. Yes.
Ehe Chairman. We will see if we can do anything toward that
end. As to your suggestion about this commission making an in-
vestigation, we have that matter under advisement.
]N[r. Allen. I have a memorandum that I will have copied and
presented to you. You can use it in the record, if you so desire. It
shows the status of the four people who are trying to file upon these
allotments.
The Chairman. I think we would like to have that in the record.
You may furnish that to the stenographer and it .will be incorpo-
rated in the record.
2238 CEEEK NATION.
Now, if there is nothing further, we would like to have a brief
executive session.
(Whereupon, at 3.30 o'clock p. m., the joint commission entered
into executive session.
The memorandum submitted by Mr. Allen and ordered incor-
porated in the record is in the words and figures following, to wit:)
Valuable Oil Lands Sought in Allotment by Allottees of Creek Nation —
2,495 Acres Unallotted Creek Tribal Lands Avafiable for Allotment
Not Valuable for Oil and Gas.
It is of the gravest importance to tlie Creek Nation to determine tlie right
of citizens of the Creek Nation who have not secured an allotment to now file
upon allotment lands ceded, relinquished or reverted to the Creek tribe which
have proven to be of great value as oil producing projierty.
Should the Department adopt a policy of permitting filings at this late day
declared unallotted at the appraised value as made for allotment purpose's
twelve years ago, where the land has since enhanced in value, hundreds of
thousands of dollars, by reason of oil and gas developments, which were un-
known when the land was originally appraised. For instance, the allotment of
Barney Thlocco, deceased, described as the NVv'. 4 of Section 9, T. IS N., R.
7 E., 160 acres of land in the heart of the Cushing Oil Field, on which two wells
are now producing 3.000 barrels daily, and the entire allotment valued at
$3,000,000. and which was appraised at $550 for allotment purposes, is not being
attempted to be talven in allotment by various claimants, who are attempting
to show that Barney Thlocco, deceased, who was enrolled as a Creek citizen
by blood (Roll No. " S592, Tlilocco, Barney, Canceled Dec. 13, 1906, See
1093777-1906"), died prior to April 1, 1S99, and his enrollment was can-
celled and the suit was brought by the United States Attorney for the Eastern
District of Oklahoma aginst the unknown heirs of Barney Thlocco. deceased,
proceeding by publication of notice, and no heirs having entered an appearance
a decree by default was entered July 29, 1911, cancelling the patents, Creek
home.stead and allotment deeds Nos. 9450 and 9451 issued in the name of
Barney Thlocco, deceased.
Thereafter, Lulu Walcott, now Butler, who theretofore had an allotment but
lost it in a contest to C. W. Garrett, by an adverse decision of the Oklahoma
Supreme Court, and immediately made a tentative allotment of the lands
allotted Barney Thlocco, deceased, now estimated at a value of $3,000,000,
and which had been advertised to be sold at public auction at Tulsa, Okla-
homa, on June 26, 1913, to the highest bidder, as unallotted lauds of the Creek
Tribe, and which were withdrawn from sale by the Secretary on account of a
telegram and letter from Charles E. Morgan, of Wewoka, Oklahoma, who
claims to have found an heir of Barney Thlocco, and also because of an ap-
plication of David Bowlegs, a Creek Freedman, noted on the rolls as dead,
but who it is alleged is still living, and he seeks through his attorney to allot
the land of Barney Thlocco, deceased, and has filed suit in the District Court
of the United States for the Eastern District of Okl-homa, entitled David
Bowlegs, a minor, by his guardian, J. P. Davis, vs. Bessie Wildcat, a minor,
et als.. Equity No. 2091. iiniying the cancellation of the enrollment of Barney
Thlocco. an allotment of land due him, or his heirs, and that title to the lands
be quieted in him. Furthermore. David Bowlegs through his attorneys, Mott,
Ward & Meserve. sought a writ of mandamus from the Supreme Court of the
District of Columbia in December, 1914. to compel the Secret;iry of the Interior
to allot the Barney Thlocco land to their client, David Bowlegs, on the ground
that the Secretary after March 4, 1907, had no authority to make a notation
on the rolls that* David Bowlegs died prior to April 1, 1S99, not entitled to
allotment.
A motion has been made to reopen the decree by default against the heirs of
Barney Thlocco, deceased, in the United States District Court of the Eastern
District of Oklahoma, which was granted, and an amended complaint entitled
the United States of America, complainant, against Bessie Wildcat, et als. No.
2017 E, reviving the case against Barney Thlocco. deceased, and praying for
the recovery to the Creek tribe of the land allotted Barney Thlocco, and declar-
ing that allotments made to him are null and void, and asking that his
enroUement and allotment be canceled. A great deal of testimony has been
taken in the Barney Thlocco case, pending the outcome of trial Judge Ralph E.
CREEK iSATION. 2239
Campbell, of the United States District Court at Muskogee, Uklahoma on
April 17, 1914, appointed J. F. Darby receiver, and authorized iiim to make
a lease ou said lands with the Black Panther Oil & Gas Company to conseive
the oil output under the lease till the final determination of title to the land.
Four witnesses, who were citizens of the Creek Nation, made affidavit in 1904
and 1905 that Bainey Thlocco died prior to April 1, 1899, at a time when the
land was not known to be valuable lor oil, when the witnesses most probablv
spoke the truth. Since the discovery of oil every effort will be made to show
that Barney Thlocco died after April 1, 1899. His death is said to have oc-
curred during an epidemic of smallpox in the e;irly part of 1S99, Jan., in a
pest camp on Hilhibee Creek, Creek Nation, as will appear from the records
of Sac and Fox Agency.
It also appears that Linda Harjo, a daughter of the sister of Barney Thlocco
is an heir to his estate, and David L. Borryhili, Creek by blood, Kofi No. 103
of Oknmlgee, Oklahoma, who claims to be the sole heir of Barney Thlocco has
executed an oil and gas mining lease ou commercial form covering the lauds
allotted Baiuey Thlocco. It nlso appears that William Frank, on June 16,
1913, a Creek by blood, Roll No. 7024, made tentative application to take in
allotmeufr the W/2 of the NW/4 of the NW/4 of Sec. 9. T. 18, N., R. 7 E.,
containing 5 acres of the allotment.
Thus we have Linda Harjo, David L. Berryhill. David Bowlegs, William
Frank, Lulu Walcott, all applying for the laud of Barney Thlocco. One freed-
man and one citizen have made two tentjitive applications prior to that of
David Bowlegs for the Barney Thlocco All't.
CBEEK BOLL, CEEEK FBEEDMEN.
No. 790. Bowlegs, David. (Died prior to March 4, 1902; not entitled to
allotment; I. T. 64573/07, 7/30/07.)
Age 2; Male; Card No. 742.
Api>roved by Jesse E. Wilson, Assistant Secretary of the Interior, February
28, 1907.
David Bowlegs, newborn Creek freedman, Roll No. 796, enrolled under the
Act of March 3, 1905 (33 Stat. L., 1048), as 2 years of age on March 4. 1905.
having been born November 11. 1902. which provided for the enrollment of
minor children born subsequent to May 25, 1901, and i)iior to IMarch 4, 1905,
and living on said latter date as the minor child of enrolled parents.
Application for his enrollment wns filetl April 20, 1905. and his enrollment
was approved by the Secretary on February 28, 1907. The mother of David
Bowlegs on July 18, 1907, filed an affidavit with the Commissioner to the Five
Civilized Tribes thnt Dfivid Bowlegs died about September. 3903. Opposite his
name and roll number appear on the final approved roll of Creek citizens this
notiition. made July 30, 1907: "Died prior to jNIarch 4, 1905; not entitled to
allotment."
Dnvid Bowlegs never having been allotted land as a Creek freedman. applied
through his acting guardian on June 17, 1913, to take in allotment the lands
allotted Barney Thlocco, deceased, excepting 5 acres, to wit :
The E/2 of the NW/4, and the E/2 of the NW/4 of the NW/4, and the SW/4
of the NW/4 of the NW/4 and the E/2 of the NW/4 of the NW/4 of the NW/4
and the E/2 of the SW/4 of the NW/4. and NW/4 of the SW/4 of the NW/4
and the E/2 of the SW/4 of the SW/4 of the NW/4 of Section 9, Twp. 18 North,
Range 7, East in Creek County, Oklahoma, being a part of the allotment of
Barney Thlocco, deceased, described as the NW/4 of Section 9, Twp. 18 N.,
Range 7 E.
CREEK CITIZENS BY BLOOD.
Alleged duplicate enrollment :
No. " 8514. Coker, Emma, 30, F, Full, 2974."
No. "4634. Lena, Hettie, 30. F, 1/2, 1452."
It is claimed that Emma Coker, a full-blood Creek, Is Identical with Hettie
Lena, a one-half blood Creek, the father of Emma Coker being a Seminole In-
dian, name unknown, while her mother was Loskey, a Creek citizen, while the
father of Hettie Lena is Lena, a Seminole citizen, and her mother Loskochee, a
35601— PT 18—14 2
2240 CKEEK NATION.
Creek citizen. Hettie Lena claims to have had seven children, three of whom
were named Sallo and Ella Coker, new-born Creeks, Roll Is'os. 1178, 1179, and
Annie Coker, enrolled minor Creek No. 470, and claims to have been the wife of
Charlie Coker of Little River Tulsa Town, who the census card shows was the
husband of Emma Coker, full-blood Creek No. 8514. Hettie Lena, who says her
nickname is Emma, and who claims to have had three husbands, her present
husband being Isaac Taylor, and her two former husbands, being Charley Coker
and Mose Larney, says that she is a one-half blood Seminole and a one-half
blood Creek; that she received allotments, both under the name of Hettie Lena
and Emma Coker. She desires to retain as her allotment the homestead of
Emma Coker, described as the SE/4 of NE/4 of Sec. 16, T. 18 N., R. 7 E., and
the surplus allotment of Hettie Lena, described as the N/2 of SE/4 and the
SE/4 of the SE/4 of Sec. 29, T. 12 N., R. 7 E., and has executed a quit-claim deed
to the Creek Nation conveying back her surplus allotment as Emma Coker, de-
scribed as the N/2 of the NW/4 and the SW/4 of the NW/4 of Sec. 16, T. 18, R.
7 E., and the homestead as Hettie Lena, described as the SW/4 of the SE/4 of
Sec. 29, T. 12 N., R. 7 E., thus retaining the 40 acre homestead of Emma Coker,
and the surplus allotment of Hettie Lena of 120 acres, retaining a full allotment
of 160 acres. ^
Under the name of Hettie Lena she has sold 120 acres of the allotment of
Emma Coker, on which a lease was originally made to Robert Oglesby, and
assigned to E. P. Harwell, and there appears to be also an oil and gas lease
on the homestead of Hettie Lena in favor of Marvin K. Colver, which she
has ceded to the Creek Nation. It is a suspicious circumstance that Hettie
Lena, as Emma Coker, relinquishes to the Creek Nation the oil lands imder
lease, the most valuable of her holdings, for which an application has been
made by Lulu Walcott, now Butler, a Creek freedwoman through her attorney
W. P. Thraves, an oil man, who seeks to file as her allotment the W/2 of the
NW/4, and the NE/4 of NW.4 of Sec. 16, T. IS, N. of r. 7 B., containing 120
acres. Lulu Walcott, now Butler, previously filed a tentative application on
the allotment of Barney Thlocco, deceased, during the pendency of contest pro-
ceedings over her original allotment, which was decided adversely to her by
the Supreme Court of Oklahoma. She now withdraws her application on the
Barney Thlocco, deceased, allotment, and seeks to select an allotment of the
above allotted land of Emma Cokei', thus contesting with Charles Garrett,
the allotment he selected for his three minor children, which he Anally won in
the Supreme Court of Oklahoma by her dismissal of her appeal in order to
tentatively file on the allotment of Barney Thlocco, deceased, which she later
withdrew to file on the oil lauds under lease relinqui.shed by Emma Coker as
her surplus and as Hettie Lena, her homestead. It is seriously doubted
whether Emma Coker, as Hettie Lena, can relinquish a part of each allotment,
and at the same time retaining a portion of each allotment, as each allotment
of Emma Coker and Hettie Lena are separate and distinct allotments, and both
cannot be treated as one allotment, nor can Emma Coker elect what portion of
each allotment she prefers to relinquish or retain.
J. George Wright in his report of July 22. 1914, expresses the opinion that
Emma Coker and Hettie Lena are one and the same person, and that it is a
case of duplicate enrollment and allotment, whereas the heirs of Emma Coker
insist that Emma Coker is a different person from Hettie Lena. Lulu Wal-
cott, now Butler, has filed suit through :Messrs. Mott, Ward and Sturdevant to
determine her right to take in allotment 120 acres of land allotted Emma
Coker. Charley Coker is a fugitive from .iustice. There is evidence that he
had a child named Emma Coker which died in infancy about 1900 or 1901 by
being burned to death at the home of Ottawa Cain, near Holdenville. Okla-
homa. Grave doubts exist as to whether any such person as Emma Coker ever
existed, and if she did exist whether she died prior to A])ril 1, 1S99. The land
allotted Enmia Coker is described as the NE/4 of the NW/4 and Lot 2 of SE/4
of NW/4, and SW/4 of NE/4 of Sec. 12, T. 15 N., R. 17 E.. which land lies near
the allotment of Barney Thlocco, is in the heart of the Cushing Oil Field and
has one well producing 3,000 barrels of oil daily.
DOUBLE ENROLLMENT AND ALLOTMENT.
Nancy Grayson, full blood Creek citizen, Roll No. 4449, enrolled as 21 years
of age, a female, was allotted 160 acres in Sec. 28. T. 11 N., R. 12 E.. and later
CREEK NATION. 2241
was ji Hotted under the uaiuo of Lete Kolvin, full-blood Creek, Roll No. 8092,
21 years of age, a female, IGO acres, in Sec. 6, T. 18 N., R. 7 E., in tlie Gushing
Oil Field, and is very valuable on account of its oil producing properties.
The 'rbouiMS Atkins allotment is located in the Gushing Oil Field, and is of
great value as an oil producing property.
CREEK KOI.L, CREEK FREEDMAN, NEW-BORN.
Age Sex Gard No.
Roll No. " 219, Garrett, Queutin, 2, M, 138."
Through his guardian G. W. Garrett, applied on October 28, 1914, to take in
allotment all of the land allotted Thomas Atkins, except Lot 4, being his home-
stead. It appears that the allotment of Quentin Garrett has been involved in
litigation for several years with the Bacone University, and the United States
Supreme Gourt awarded the land to said university, and Quentin Garrett now
seeks to select 120.85 acres of the allotment of Thomas Atkins, wliom he charges
died prior to April 1, 1899, and therefore his lands are in truth unallotted lands
of the Creek Nation.
On October 31, 1914, Messrs. Mott and Ward, John B. Meserve, and Messrs.
Benjamin and Villard Martin, Attorneys for Quentin Garrett, filed suit in the
U. S. District Court for the Eastern District of Oklahoma against Charles Page
and forty other defendants, asking that he be decreed to be the owner of 120.85
acres of the allotment of Thomas Atkins, deceased, described as the SW/4 of
the NE/4 and Lot 2 of See. 5, and the SW/4 of NW/4 of Sec. 4, T. 18 N.,
R. 7 E., Greek County, Okla. Case now pending.
CREEK CITIZENS BY BLOOU.
No. 7918. Atkins, Thomas, Age 10, Male, 1/2 Blood, Census Card #2707.
Approved by Thomas Ryan, Assistant Secretary of the Interior, May 21. 1904.
June 30. 1902, the Dawes Commission issued certificate No. 169S3. in name
of Thomas Atkins, Roll No. 7913. for the SW/4 of the NE/4 and Lot 2 of Sec. 5:
SW/4 of NW/4 and Lot 4, Sec. 4, T. 18, R. 7 E., containing 162.01 acres, of
which Lot 4 was designated as his homestead, and allotment deed was ap-
proved May 8, 1903. It is claimed that Thomas Atkins died prior to June 27,
1902, the date of the issuance of his certificate of citizenship, that he was born
about 1889 or 1890. and died at about the age of ten years; further, that he
died prior to April 1, 1899, the date on which he had to be living to be en-
rolled. It is believed that his mother, Minnie Atkins, now Folk, wife of
Harry, or Henry, Folk, a musician in the United States Army, stationed at
Fort Lawton, Seattle, Washington, was induced to give his name as her child
in making up the 1895 Creek pay roll for the purposes of receiving his share of
money due him, which the record shows she did receive, and it is questionable
whether any such person as Thomas Atkins ever lived, although it is alle.ged
in suit filed that Thomas Atkins died in the year 1903 or 1904 at Wagoner,
Oklahoma, leaving surviving him as his sole and only heir at law, Nancy
Atkins, his mother.
Vatxtable Oil Lands Sought in Allotment By Allottees of Creek Nation.
2495 Acres Unallotted Creek Tribal Lands Available for Allotment not
Valuable fob Oil and Gas.
It is of the gravest imimrtance to the Creek Nation to determine the right of
citizens of the Greek Nation who have not secured an allotment to now file upon
allotted lands ceded, relinquished or i everted to the Creek tribe which have
pro' en to be of great value as oil producing property.
Should the Department adopt a policy of permitting filings at this late day
on lands der-lared unallotteil at the appraised value as made for allotment pur-
poses twelve years ago, where the land has since enhanced in value, hundreds
2242 CEEEK NATION.
of thonsauds dollars, by reason of oil and fxas developments, which were un-
known when the land was originally appraised. P'or instance, the allotment of
Barney Thlocco, deceased, described as the NW/4 of Sec. 9. T. IS N., R. 7 E.,
160 acres of land in the heart of the Gushing Oil Field, on which two wells are
now producing 3,000 barrels daily, and the entire allotment valued at $3,000,000,
and which was appraised at $550,000 for allotment purposes, is now being at-
tempted to be taken in allotment by various claimants, who are attempting to
show that Barney Thlocco, deceased, who was enrolled as a Creek citizen by
blood. Roll No. "8592, Canceled Dec. 13, 1906, See Thlocco,, Barney 109377—
1906 35 M Full 3021," died prior to April 1, 1899, and his enrollment was can-
celed and the suit was brought by tlie United States Attorney for the Er. stern
District of Oklahoma against the unknown heirs of Barney Thlocco, deceased
proceeding by publication of notice, and no heirs having entered an appearance
a decree by default was entered July 29, 1911, cancelling the patents. Creek
homestead and allotment deeds Nos. 9450 and 9451 issued in the name of Barney
Thlocco, deceased.
Thereafter, Lulu Walcott, now Butler, who theretofore had an allotment but
lost it in a contest to C. W. Garrett by an adverse decision of tlie Oklahoma Su-
preme Court, and immediately made a tentative allotment of the lands allotted
Barney Thlocco, deceased, now estimated at a value of $3,000,000, and which had
been advertised to be sold at public auction at Tulsa, Oklahoma, on June 26,
1913, to the highest bidder, as unallotted lands of the Creek tribe, and which
were withdrawn from sale by the Secretary on account of a telegram and letter
from Charles E. Margan of Wewoka, Oklahoma, who claims to have found an
heir of Barney Thlocco, and also because of an application of David Bowlegs,
a Creek freedman, noted on the rolls as dead, but who it is alleged is still living,
and he seeks through his attorney to allot the land of Barney Thlocco, deceased,
and has filed suit in the District Court of the United States for the Eastern
District of Oklahoma, entitled Daivd Bowlegs, a minor, by his guardian, J. P.
Davis, vs. Bessie AVildcat, a minor, et als. Equity No. 2091, praying tlie can-
cellation of the enrollment of Barney Thlocco. an allotment of land due him. or
his heirs, and that title to the lands be quieted in him. Furthermore, David
Bowlegs througli his attorneys, Mott, Ward &, Meserve, sought a writ of man-
damus from the Supreme Court of the District of Columbia in December, 1914,
to compel the Secretary of the Interior to allot the Barney Thlocco land to tlieir
client, David Bowlegs, on the ground that the Secretary after ]March 4, 1907,
had no authority to make a notation on the rolls that David Bowlegs died prior
to April 1, 1909, not entitled to allotment.
A motion hns been made to reopen the decree by default against the heirs of
Barney Thlocco, deceased, in the United States District Court of the Eastern
District of Oklahoma, which was granted, and an amended complaint entitled
the United States of America, complainant, against Bessie Wildcat, et als. No.
2017 E, reviving the case against Barney Thlocco, deceased, and praying for
the recovery to the Creek tribe of the land allotted Barney Thlocco. and de-
claring that allotments made to him are null and void, and asking that his
enrollment and allotment be canceled. A great deal of testimony has been
taken in the Barney Thlocco case, pending the outcome of trial. Judge Ralph
E. Campbell, of the United States District Court at Muskogee. Oklahoma, on
April 17, 1914, appointed J. F. Darby, Receiver, and authorized him to make a
lease on said lands with the Black Panther Oil & Gas Company to conserve the
oil output under the lease till tlie final determination of title to the land.
Four witnesses, who were citizens of the Creek Nation, made affidavit in 1904
and 1905 that Barney Thlocco died prior to April 1, 1899, and as the land Avas
not then known to be valuable for oil the witnesses most probably s])oke the
truth. Since the discovery of oil every effort will be made to show that Barney
Thlocco died after April 1, 1899. His death is said to have occurred during an
epidemic of smallpox in the early part of 1899, Jan.. in a pest camp on Hillabee
Creek, Creek Nation, as will appear from the records of Sac and Fox Agency.
It also appears that Linda Harjo, a daughter of the sister of Barney Thlocco,
is an heir to his estate, and David L. Berryhill. Creek by blood. Roll No. 103 of
Okmulgee, Oklahoma, who claims to be the sole heir of Barney Thlocco haa
execr.ted an oil and gas mining lease on conunercial form covering the lands
allotted Barney Thlocco. It also appears that William Frank, on June 16. 1913,
a Creek by blood. Roll No. 7024. made tentative application to take In allotment
the W/2 of the NW/4 of the NW/4 NW/4 of Sec. 9. T. 18 N.. R. 7 E., containing
5 acres of the nlldtinent.
CREEK NATION. 2243
Thus we have Linda Harjo, David L. Berrj-hill, David Bowlegs, William
Frank, Lulu Walcott. all applying for the laud of Baruey Thlocco. One freed-
man and one citizen have made two tentative applications prior to that of David
Bowlegs for the Baruey Thlocco All't.
CREEK CITIZENS BY BLOOD.
Alleged duplicate enrollment :
No. " S514, Coker, Emma. 30. F. Full, 2974."
Ko. "4G34, Lena, Hettie, 30, F, 1/2, 1452."
It is claimed that Emma Coker. a full-blood Creek, is identical with Hettie
Lena, a one-half blood Creek, the father of Emma Coker being a Seminole In-
dian, name unknown, while her mother was Loskey, a Creek citizen, while the
father of Hettie Lena is Lena, a Seminole citizen, and her mother, Luskochee,
a Creek citizen. Hettie Lena claims to have hnd seven children, three of whom
were named Sallo and Ella Coker, newborn Creeks, Roll Nos. 117S, 1179, and
Aunie Coker, enrolled minor Creek No. 470, and claims to have been the wife
of Charlie Coker of Little River Tulsa Town, who the census card shows was
the husband of Emma Coker, full-blood Creek, No. 8514. Hettie Lena, who says
her nickname is Emma, and who claims to have had three husbands, her present
husband being Isaac Taylor, and her two former husbands, being Charley Coker
and Mose Larney, says that she is a one-half blood Seminole and a one-half
blood Creek ; that she received allotments, both under the name of Hettie Lena
and Emma Coker. She desires to retain as her allotment the homestead of
Emma Coker, described as the SE/4 of NW/4 of Sec. 16, T. IS N., R. 7 E., and
the surplus allotment of Hettie Lena, described as the N/2 of SE/4 and the
SE 4 of the SE/4 of Sec. 29, T. 12 N., R. 7 E., and has executed a quit-claim deed
to the Creek Nation convej'ing back her surplus allotment as Emma Coker,
described as the N/2 of the NW/4 and the SW/4 of the NW/4 of Sec. 16, T. 18,
R. 7 E., and the homestead as Hettie Lena, described as the SW/4 of the SE/4
of Sec. 29, T. 12 N., R. 7 E., thus retaining the 40-acre homestead of Emma
Coker, and the surplus allotment of Hettie Lena of 120 acres, retaining a full
allotment of 160 acres.
Under the name of Hettie Lena she has sold 120 acres of the allotment of
Emma Coker, on which a lease was originally made to Robert Oglesby, and
assigned to E. P. Harwell, raid there appears to be also as oil and gas lease on
the homestead of Hettie Lena in favor of Marvin K. Clover, which she has
ceded to the Creek Nation. It is a suspicious circumstance that Hettie Lena,
as Emma Coker. relinquishes to the Creek Nation the oil lands under lease, the
most valuable of her holdings, for which an application has been made by Lulu
Walcott, now Butler, a Creek freedwoman, through her attorney W. P. Thraves,
an oil man, who seeks to file as her allotment the W/2 of the NW/4, and the
NE/4 of NW/4 of Sec. 16, T. IS, N. of R. 7 E., containing 120 acres. Lulu
Walcott, now Butler, previously filed a tentative application on the allotment
of Barney Thlocco, deceased, during the pendency of contest proceedings over
her original allotment, which was decided adversely to her by the Supreme
Court of Okhihom.-i. She now withdraws her application on the Barney Thlocco,
deceased, allotment, and seeks to select an allotment of the above allotted land
of Emma Coker, thus contesting with Charles Garrett the allotment he selected
for his three minor children, which he finally won in the Supreme Court of
Oklahoma by her dismissal of her appeal in order to tentfitively file on the
oil lands under lease relinquished by Emma Coker as her suii^lus and as Hettie
Lena, her homestead. It is seriously doubted whether Emma Coker, as Hettie
Lena, can relinquish a part of each allotment, and at the same time retaining a
portion of each allotment, as each allotment of Emma Coker and Hettie Lena are
separate and distinct allotments, and both cannot be treated as one allotment,
nor can Emma Coker elect what portion of each allotment she prefers to relin-
quish or retain.
J. George Wright in his report of July 22, 1914, expresses the opinion that
Emma Coker and Hettie Lena are one and the same person, and that it is the
case of duplicate enrollment and allotment, whereas the heirs of Emma Coker
insist that Emma Coker is a different person from Hettie Lena, Lulu Walcott,
now Butler has fded suit through Messrs. Mott. Ward and Sturdevant to deter-
mine her right to take in allotment 120 acres of land .allotted Emma Coker.
2244 CEEEK NATION.
Charley Coker is a fugitive from justice. There is evidence that he had a child
named Emma Coker which died in iufancj' about 1900 or 1901 by being burned
to death at the home of Ottawa Cain, near Holdenville, Oklahoma. Grave
doubts exist as to whether any such person as Emma Coker ever existed, and
if she did exist whether she died prior to April 21, 1909. The laud allotted
Emm.i Coker is described as the yE/4 of the NW/4 and N/2 of NW/4, and SW/4
of NW/4 of Sec. 16, T. 18 N., R. 7 B., which land lies near the allotment of
Barney Thlocco, is in the heart of the Gushing Oil Field and has one well pro-
ducing 3,000 barrels of oil daily.
DOXIBLE ENROLLMENT AND ALLOTMENT.
Nancy Grayson, full blood Creek citizen, Roll No. 4449, enrolled as 21 years
of age, a female, was allotted 100 acres in Sec. 28, T. 11, N. R. 12 E., and later
was allotted under the name of Lete Kolvin, full-blood Creek, Roll No. 8092, 21
years of age, a female, 160 acres, in Sec. 6, T. 18, N. R. 7 E., in the Cushing Oil
Field, and is very valuable on account of its oil producing properties.
CBEEK CITIZENS BY BLOOD.
No. 7913. ATKINS, THOMAS, Age 10. Male. 1/2 Blood, Census Card #2707.
Approved by Thomas Ryan, Assistant Secretary of the Interior, Nov. 14, 1904.
June 30, 1902, the Dawes Commission issued certificate No. 16983, in name of
Thomas Atkins. Roll No. 7913, for the SW/4 of the NE/4 and Lot 2 of Sec. 5;
SW/4 of NW/4 and Lot 4, Sec. 4, T. 18, R. 7 E., containing 162.01 acres, of
which Lot 4 was designated as his homestead, and allotment deed was approved
May 8, 1903. It is claimed that Thomas Atkins died prior to June 27, 1902,
the date of the issuance of his certificate of citizenship, that he was born about
1889 or 1890, and died at about ;e age of ten eyars; further, that he died prior
to April 1. 1899. the date on which he had to be living to be enrolled. It is be-
lieved that his mother, Minnie Atkins, now Folk, wife of Harry, or Henry. Folk,
a musician in the United States Army, stationed at Fort Lawton, Seattle. Wash-
ington, was induced to give his name as her child in making up the 1895 Creek
pay roll for the purpose of receiving his share of money due him, which the
record shows she did receive, and it is questionable whteher any such person as
Thomas Atkins ever lived, although it is alleged in suit filed that Thomas
Atkins died in the year 1903 or 1904 at Wagoner. Oklahoma, leaving surviving
him as his sole and only heir at law. Nancy Atkins, his mother.
The Thomas Atkins allotment is located in the Cushing Oil Field, and is of
great value as an oil producing property.
CREEK BOLL, CREEK FREEDMAN, NEW-BORN.
Age Sex Card No.
Roll No. " 219. Garrett, Quentin, 2, M, 138 "
Through his guardian C. W. Garrett, applied on October 28, 1914, to take in
allotment all of the land allotted Thomas Atkins, except Lot 4, being his home-
stead. It appears that the allotment of Quentin Garrett has been involved in
litigation for several yea.rs with the Bacone University, and the United States
Supreme Court awarded the land to said university, and Quentin Garrett now
seeks to select 120.85 acres of the allotment of Thomas Atkins, whom he
charges died prior to April 1. 1899, and therefore his lands are in truth unal-
lotted lands of the Creek Nation.
On October 31. 1914, Messrs. Mott and Ward, John B. Aleserve. and Jlessrs.
Benjamin and A'illard Martin, Attorneys for Quentin Garrett, filed suit in the
U. S. District Court for the Eastern District of Oklahoma against Charles Page
and forty other defendants, asking that he be decreed to be the owner of 120.85
acres of the allotment of Thomas Atkins, deceased, described as the SW/4 of
the NE/4 and Lot 2 of Sec. 5, and the SW/4 of NW/4 of Sec. 4. T. 18 N., R. 7 E..
Creek County, Okla.
Case now pending.
CREEK NATION. 2245
CKKKK llOLF,. OKEKK FUEEDMKN.
No. 796. Bowlegs, David. (Died prior to March 4, 1901i ; not eutitled to al-
lotment, I. T. 64573/07, 7/30/07.)
Age 2, Male, Card No. 742.
Approved by Jesse E. Wilson, Assistant Secretary of the Interior, February
28, 1907.
David Bowlegs, newborn Creek freedniau. KoU No. 796. enrolled under the
Act of March 3, 1905 (33 Stat. L., 1048), as 2 years of age on March 4, 1905,
having been born November 11, 1902, which provided for the enrollment of
minor children born subsequent to May 25, 1901, and prior to March 4, 1905,
and living on said latter date as the minor child of enrolled jiaretits. Api)lica-
tion for his enrollment was filed April 20, 1905, and his enrollment was ap-
proved by the Secretary on February 28. 1907. The mother of David Bowlegs
on July 18, 1907, filed an afhdavit with tlie Commissioner to the Five Civilized
Tribes that David Bowlegs died about September, 1903. Opposite his name and
roll number apiiear on the final approved roll of Creek citizens tliis notation,
made July 30, 1907. " Died prior to March 4, 1905; not entitled to allotment."
David Bowlegs never having been allotted land as a Creek freedman. applied
through his acting guardian on June 17. 1913. to take in allotment the lauds
allotted Barney Thlocco, deceased, excepting 5 acres, to wit :
The E/2 of the NW/4, and the E/2 of the NW/4 of the NlV/4, and the SW/4
of the NW/4 of the NWV4 and the E/2 of the NW/4 of the NW/4 of the NW/4
and the E/2 of the SW/4 of the NW/4, and NW/4 of the S\V/4 of the
NW/4 and the E/2 of the SW/4 of the SWV4 of the NW/4 of Section 9, Twp.
18 North, Range 7. East in Creek County. Oklahoma, being a part of the allot-
ment of Barney Thlocco, deceased, described as the NW/4 of Section 9, Twp.
18 N., Range 7 E.
CREEK CITIZENS BY BLOOD, MINOR CHILDREN, ENROLLED UNDER ACT OF APRIL 26,
190C (34 STAT., 137).
" No. 110, Wilson, Jack Elton, 1. M. 3/8, Card No. 147."
On March IS, 1907, R. B. Wilson, father of Jack Elton Wilson. Creek minor,
Roll No. 110, made tentative application to take in allotment for his son land
allotted one Eli Tiger, Creek by blood. Roll No. 825, whose name was stricken
from the roll by the Secretary on March 4, 1907.
June 29, 1910. the father, learning that the lands sought had been sold by the
heirs of Eli Tiger, and considering it extremely doubtful whether or not a
.suit could be successfully maintained to cancel the patents thereto issued to
the heirs of Eli Tiger, applied to relinquish the tentative application made by
him to take in allotment for his son. Jack Elton Wilson, the lands allotted in
the name of Eli Tiger, and on the same day that he relinquished, he made a
tentative application to take in allotment certain lands that had been allotted
Sampson McGilbray, Creek freedman. Roll No. 5637, who died prior to April
1, 1899. Opposite whose roll number and name a notation had been made by
the Secretary on July 11, 1911, as follows: "Died prior to April 1, 1899; not
entitled to land or money."
A suit to cancel the patent to Sampson McGilbray, deceased, was filed, and it
appearing that Sampson McGilbray had sold the land allotted in his name to
innocent purchasers on February 25, 1014, the United States Judge for the
Eastern District of Oklahama, awarded the land to the innocent purchasers.
Following that adverse decision, R. B. Wilson, the father, on February 28,
1914, made tentative application to take in allotment for his son, Jack F'-'-on
Wilson certain land allotted Joe Grayson, deceased Creek freedman No. J464.
J. C. Denton, his attorney, filed a brief in support of the tentative application,
claiming that the patents issued in favor of the heirs of Joe Grayson, deceased,
were null and void, charging that as Joe Grayson died before allotment and
having left no heirs living, the title to the land continued in the CreeK Nation,
and was public domain thereof, and that the will made by Joe Gnyson on
March 14, 1901, conveying said land to Sanniel Grayson of Eufaula. Oidahonia,
was void for want of power to execute said will. The devisee under the will
applied to select a portion of the allotment of Joe Grayson, deceased, and
patents were issued to the heirs of Joe Grayson, on October 21, 1905, and were
recorded and delivered to Samuel Grayson at Eufaula.
2246 CREEK NATION.
R. B. Wilson has attempted to allot land for his son which had been allotted
to Eli Tiger, Sampson McGilbray and Joe Grayson, wliose enrollments were
cancelled, and he applied at a time when there was a considerable area of
unallotted lands of the Creek Nation which he could have selected for his son
without litigation, and of which he was advised.
The Joe Grayson allotment is valuable for oil, having several producing wells
located thereon at this time on all of the land which he has applied for his son,
and there are improvements thereon which the father does not own or claim
to own. It is apparent that R. B. Wilsn is simply being used as a stool pigeon
by designing people interested in oil development to procure valuable oil allot-
ments where it is possible to recover same through litigation and when there
are 695 acres of unallotted Creek tribal lands for which he could apply, and
if the allotments of Eli Tiger, Sampson McGilbi'ay and Joe Grayson are un-
allotted lands, they should be declared and recovered as unallotted lands of
the Creek tribe. The Creek Nation should receive the fruits of litigation in-
stead of Jack Elton Wilson, an unallotted member, receiving a most valuable
allotment.
W. B. Thraves, an oil man, seems to be the sponsor for selections made on
behalf of Jack Elton Wilson.
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