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HEA^GSjlEGARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGEIN THE
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
, , HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTIETH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
Public Law 601
(Section 121, Subsection Q (2) )
;'ULY 31 ; AUGUST 3, 4, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 16, 17, 18,
20. 24, 25, 26, 27, 30 ; SEPTEMBER 8 AND 9, 1948
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
1 1
HEARINGS REGARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN THE
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTIETH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
Public Law 601
(Section 121, Subsection Q (2))
JULY 31 ; AUGUST 3, 4, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 16, 17, 18,
20, 24, 25, 26, 27, 30; SEPTEMBER 8 AND 9, 1948
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
80408 WASHINGTON : 1948
OCT 221948
s?;?
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
J. PARNELL THOMAS, New Jersey, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN S. WOOD, Georgia
JOHN Mcdowell, Pennsylvania JOHN E. RANKIN, Mississippi
RICHARD M. NIXON, California J. HARDIN PETERSON, Florida
RICHARD B. VAIL, Illinois F. EDWARD HUBERT, Louisiana
Robert B. Stripling, Chief Investigator
Benjamin Mandel, Director of Research
NOTE. — These hearings begin with page 501, in accordance with the system of consecutive
numbering adopted by the committee during the second session. Eightieth Congress. Page Nos.
1-500 are contained in Hearings on Proposed Legislation to Curb or Control the Communist
Party of the United States.
II
CONTENTS
July 31, 1948 : ^^^^
Testimouy of Elizabeth Terrill Bentley 503
August 3, 1948 :
Testimony of David Whittaker Chambers 563
August 4, 1948 :
Testimony of —
Nathan Gregory Silvermaster 5ST
Elizabeth T. Bentley 604
Louis J. Russell 612
August 5, 1948 :
Testimony of —
Hon.'Fred E. Busbey 625
Alger Hiss 642
August 7, 1948 :
Testimony of David Whittaker Chambers 661
August 9, 1948 :
Testimony of —
Alexander Koral 674
Victor Perlo 677
p:iizabeth T. Bentley 687
"Victor Perlo (resumed) 693
Gilda de Fi'ank Burke 701
Alexander Koral (resumed) 704
Louis J. Russell 711
August 10, 1948 :
Testimony of —
Duncan Chaplin Lee 715
Elizabeth T. Bentley 725
Duncan Chaplin Lee (resumed) 733
William Ludwig Ullmann 761
Robert T. Miller 778
August 11. 1948:
Testimony of — •
Henry H. Collins 8r;2
Elizabeth T. Bentley 810
August 12, 1948 :
Testimony of —
Charles Kramer 818
Abraham George Silverman 835
August 13, 1948 :
Testimony of —
Lauchlln Currie ." 851
——Harry Dexter White 877
Bela Gold 906
Sonia Gold 912
Frank Coe 915
Donald Hiss 928
August 16, 1948 :
Testimony of Alfter Hiss 9?15
August 17. 1948:
Testimony of Alger Hiss (Whittaker Chambers) 975
August IS, 1948 :
Testimony of —
Nelson Frank 1003
Isaac Don Levine 1005
Mrs. Alger Hiss 1011
111
IV CONTENTS
August 20, 1948 :
Testimony of — Page
John J. Abt 1015
Lee Pressman 1022
Nathan Witt 10^>8
August 24, 1948 :
Testimony of —
Louis Budenz 1035
Martha Pope 1013
Joseph Cherner 1052
Samuel A. Mensh 1060
Henry J. Gertler 1063
W. Marvin Smith 1071
August 25, 1948 :
Testimony of —
Alger Hiss 1076
Whittaker Chambers 1078
Louis J. Russell 1111
Alger Hiss (resumed) 1115
Alger Hiss (resumed) 1118
WJ'ittaker Chambers (resumed) 1176
August 26, 1948 :
Testimony of William Rosen 1207
August 27, 1948 :
Testimonv of —
Leon Cherner 1223
Henry Cherner 1227
Flovd Rhoda Brewer 1229
Samuel Bialek 1232
Robert Bialek 1240
Whittaker Chambers 1255
August 30, 1948:
Testimony of —
Alexander Stevens (real name Goldberger; also known as
J. Peters) 1267
Whittaker Chambers 1271
Alexander Stevens (real name Goldberger; also known as
J. Peters) (resumed) 1271
Whittaker Chambers (resumed) 1278
Adolf A. Berle, Jr 1291
September 8, 1948 :
Testimony of — ■
Mrs. Addie Rosen 1301
Louis Rosenberg ^^^"l
Irvin Augustus Farrell 1316
Henrv Cherner 1319
September 9, 1948 :
Testimony of —
William Rosen 1329
Maurice Louis Braverman 1342
Index 1363
HEAEINGS RECTAEDmrT COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
SATURDAY, JULY 31, 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. C.
The committee met. pursuant to call, at 10 : J:5 a. m., in the commit-
tee room of the Committee on Un-American Activities, Hon. J. Parnell
Thomas (chairman) presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives J. Parnell Thomas
(chairman). Richard ]M. Xixon, John McDowell, Karl E. Mundt, John
E. Rankin. J. Hardin Peterson, and F. Edward Hebert.
Staff members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator;
Louis Russell. William A^Hieeler, Donald T. Appell, and Robert Gaston,
investigators; Benjamin Mandel, director of research ; and A. S. Poore,
editor, for the committee.
The Chairman. The meeting will come to order.
The record will show that those present are Mr. Mundt, Mr. Mc-
Dowell, Mr. Xixon, Mr. Rankin, Mr. Peterson, Mr. Hebert, and Mr.
Thomas, and a quorum is present.
Mr. Stripling, the first witness.
Mr. Stripling. The first witness, Mr. Chairman, will be Miss Eliza-
beth T. Bentley.
Miss Bentley, will you stand and be sworn?
The Chairman. Miss Bentley, please stand and raise your right
hand.
Do 3'ou solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God (
Miss Bentley. I do.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling, before you start asking questions,
the Chair would like to make a short statement.
Over a year ago this committee started to investigate espionage in
the Government. We have had many witnesses in executive session, all
of whom testified on this subject.
The testimony received by us confirms in great detail the conclusions
drawn by your investigative staff, and confirms the fact that there is a
tremendous need for such an investigation and exposure and a convic-
tion in many cases in this country.
We regret that the matter has not been prosecuted long before this.
We believe that the matter should be prosecuted without further delay,
and the committee recommends that a special grand jury be convened
in Washington, D. C.. in order to give special attention to the matter
of espionage in the Government, and to bring the matter to an early
conclusion.
501
502 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Rankin. Let me say at this point that this committee exposed
years ago those Communists who have been indicted in New York and
showed by their own testimony that they were members of the Com-
munist Party, which was dominated by the Communist International,
and dedicated to the overthrow of this Government,
That has been known to President Truman and Governor Dewey of
New York all this time. It is about time that they got behind this
committee and helped to clean this proposition up and drive these rats
from the Federal, the State, and the municipal pay rolls.
So I agree with the chairman that these prosecutions should be
speeded up as much as possible in order that we may weed out those
enemies within our gates here and in New York and everywhere else
who are plotting constantly for the overthrow of this Government.
That includes the members of the New York council as William Z.
Foster, and everyone else who has joined in this international move-
ment to wreck this Government, I think the grand jury should be
convened at once.
Mr. MuNDT. I would like to have included in the record this state-
ment: That the evidence which is before the grand jury in New
York and the recent disclosures it has made and findings being made
oil the other side of the Capitol in connection with espionage in Gov-
ernment and the sale of war materials to Kussia, and tlie information
we are going to get this morning indicate that the provision of the
so-called Mundt-Nixon bill, reported unanimously by this committee,
passed by the House by 319 to 56 and now before the Senate, may have
to be revised in the nature of strengthening those provisions instead
of weakening them in order to make them fully effective.
It is entirely jiossible that the Eighty-first Congress will pass a
version of this bill which is much more stringent and which is
strengthened considerably even over that portion which has already
passed the House, and that some of the "bleeding hearts" of the coun-
try refer to as having been too drastic a measure.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Chairman, do I understand from your opening
statement that you will use this testimony today as the basis of a
formal presentation to the United States attorney in the District of
Columbia to request him to convene a special grand jury?
The Chairman. That is correct. This testimony today and other
testimony we have received from other witnesses.
Mr. Hebert. Coming from this committee the United States attorney
will be formally requested to convene a special grand jury to investi-
gate the matter of communism in the Government.
The Chairman. That is correct. Does any other member have any-
thing they would like to say?
Mr. MuNDT. I think in connection with that request, Mr. Chairman,
we should also request the Attorney General to consummate these
hearings being lielcl in New York and have the proper indictments at
this time, because there is a verv obvious effort to delay and slow
down the findings of that New York case until after November.
The Chairman. I tliink, Mr. Mundt, that is one of the main rea-
sons— I don't say after November — but one of the main reasons why
we want a new grand jury convened in the District of Columbia is
because nothing has been handed down by the grand jury up in New
York.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 503
«
Mr. Hebert. You don't mean a grand jury, but you mean a special
blue-ribbon grand jury.
The Chairman. Special blue-ribbon grand jury.
Mr. Hebert. That will devote its efforts entirely to this matter.
Tlie Chairman. That is correct.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, in that connection let me make this
inquiry. The gentleman from Louisiana says investigate the Com-
munists connected with the Federal Government. Some of these Com-
munists that have been indicted are connected with the State govern-
ments, or the city government in New York, and if they are on any
pay roll of the Federal Government, State government, or city govern-
ment, or county government and plotting the overthrow of this Gov-
ernment, they ought to be investigated by this grand jury.
Mr. Hebert. Of course, that statement is accepted because the Dis-
trict of Columbia is a Federal Government.
The Chairman. Well, gentlemen, we have a witness here and we had
better start.
Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Very well.
TESTIMONY OF ELIZABETH TERRILL BENTLEY
Mr. Stripling. Miss Bentley, you are here in response to a subpena
which was served upon you on July 23 in the St. George Hotel by Mr.
Donald T. Appell ; is that correct ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. To appear before the committee last Wednesday ; is
that correct ?
Miss Bentley. Tliat is correct.
Mr. Stripling. At your request
The Chairman (interposing). The Chair would like to say that we
are going to finish this at this session if we have to stay here all day
and all night and all day tomorrow. Go ahead.
Mr. Stripling. At your request the subpena was continued until
today; is that correct?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. You are here before the committee in response to
that subpena ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct ; yes.
Mr. Stripling. Will you please state your full name?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; Elizabeth Terrill Bentley.
Mr. Stripling. Wliat is your present address ?
Miss Bentley. My present address is the Hotel St. George in
Brooklyn.
Mr. Stripling. When and where were you born ?
Miss Bentley. I was born in New Milford, Conn., 1908.
Mr. Stripling. Can you give the committee a resume of your educa-
tional and occupational background?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Don't go into too much detail.
Miss Bentley. I graduated from high school and then from Vassar
College. I have an A. B. from Vassar College.
Mr. Stripling. Wliat year did you graduate from Vassar?
504 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Miss Bentley. 1930. I have a master's from Columbia University
in 1935. I had a year's study at the University of Florence in Italy,
and a sunnner's study at the University of Perugia in Italy. I think
that completes the educational qualifications.
I taught 2 years in the Foxcroft School in Middleburg, Va.
Positions which I held in the business world were secretary in
import-export firms, publicity firms, translating. I was vice president
of United States Service and Shipping for 6 years. For the last year
I was secretary in an import house.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever been out of the United States?
Miss Bentley. Yes. I have been out of the United States.
Mr. Stripling. What countries did you travel to ?
Miss Bentley. I have been in England, Belgium, France, Switzer-
land, Germany, Austria, Italy, one day in Algiers.
Mr. Stripling. When did you travel in Europe?
Miss Bentley. The summer after I graduated from Vassar I went
on a guided musical tour. That was the one that took me to most of
the countries. Then in 1931, 1 think it was, I studied in Perugia. In
the year 1933-34 I was in Florence.
Mr. Stripling. Miss Bentley, were you ever a member of the Com-
munist Party of the United States ?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I was.
Mr. Stripling. When did you join?
Miss Bentley. March 1935.
Mr. Stripling. Who recruited you into the Communist Party?
Miss Bentley. The two people who signed my membership card
were Mrs. Lee Fuhr and Dr. James P. Mendenhall.
Mr. Stripling. Will you please spell Mrs. Fuhr's name?
Miss Bentley. F-u-h-r.
Mr. Stripling. Will you identify Mrs. Fuhr?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Would you do so?
Miss Bentley. I don't know where she is just now, but she was a
nurse and, as I understand it, the first American nurse who went to
Spain during the Spanish civil war. I have lost track of her for many
years and don't know exactly where she is now.
Mr. Stripling. Could you identify Dr. James Mendenhall ?
Miss Bentley. Yes. At that time he was a professor in the Lincoln
School, which is a part of Teachers College, Columbia. Since then I
believe he went into the OPA, but I have also lost track of him
recently.
Mr. Stripling. Would you tell the committee the circumstances
under which you were recruited into the party?
Miss Bentley. Yes. I had come back from a year in Italy quite
upset about Fascist conditions there. On my return I met a number
of Communists of whom those two are a part, and they got me into
the American League Against War and Fascism, which was interested
in my impressions of Italy.
After that they gradually got me into the Communist Party.
Mr. Stripling. Were you active in the Communist Party or were
you a rather passive member?
Miss Bentley. I would say just about medium; not too active,
just an average run-of-the-mill member.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 505
Mr. Stripling. Did your activity increase at any particular period?
Miss Bentley. Yes; but not open party activities, if that is what
you mean.
Mr. Stripling. Miss Bentley, are you acquainted with an individual
or were j^ou acquainted with an individual named Jacob Golos ?
Miss Bentley. Yes; I was.
Mr. Stripling. AVhen did you first meet Jacob Golos ?
Miss Bentley. In October 1938.
Mr. Stripling. Would you give us the circumstances under which
you met him, please?
Miss Bentley. Yes. I think about 3 or 4 months before I met
him I had, through Columbia University, obtained a position with
the Italian Library of Information, which I had discovered to be a part
of the Italian Government Propaganda Ministry. I had discovered
they were circulating Fascist propaganda, and I had gone to Com-
munist Party headquarters and requested someone who could use this
information to be distributed to anti-Fascist organizations for their
use.
I was then introduced to Mr. Jacob Golos.
]Mr. Stripling. At that time what was Mr. Golos' occupation?
Miss Bentley. I didn't know until a year after I met him, but
actually he was at that time and up until his death, president of World
Tourists, Inc.
Mr. Stripling. Will you describe briefly the type of organization
World Tourists was ? What did it do ?
Miss Bentley. My understanding is it was set up in 1927 with funds
supplied by the Communist Party as a travel agency, and that Mr.
Golos came into the organization in the early thirties, when it was
financially on the rocks, took it over, made its prime purpose sending
individuals and tourists to Russia, and made quite a bit of money dur-
ing those boom travel years.
Then in tlie late thirties, when travel fell off, they got a concession
from the American office of Intourist, which is the Soviet agency in
charge of parcels and packages going to the U. S. S. R., and their main
business became sending packages to individuals in Russia.
Mr. Stripling. In connection with World Tourists, Miss Bentley,
did you ever know a person by the name of Gerhart Eisler ? Did you
ever meet him?
Miss Bentley. No ; I didn't.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever know of anyone by the name of Samuel
Liptzen ?
Miss Bentley. No.
Mr. Stripling. I mention that, Mr. Chairman, because in the hear-
ing before this committee on Gerhert Eisler it was brought out that
Mr. Eisler traveled to the Soviet Union under a passport in the name
of Samuel Liptzen. He carried with him a letter signed by Jacob
Golos which he presented to a Soviet agent in Paris, which arranged
for him to go to the Soviet L^nion. The passport which he obtained
under the name of Samuel Liptzen did not indicate that he intended
to go to the Soviet Union.
I have the letter here and would like to read it into tlie record at this
point in order to identify Mr. Golos and World Tourists.
The Chairman. Without objection, it is so ordered.
506 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. The letter is dated June 17, 1935, addressed to In-
tourist, Inc., Paris, France. It reads :
Deak Mr. Toloteav: This will introduce to you Mr. Samuel Liptzen, a good
friend of mine, who will ask you to arrange a trip for him to the Soviet Union
via the Soviet steamer from Dunkirk, France, to Leningrad. Will you kindly use
your influence to secure the best accommodations for him and give him your best
attention.
With personal best wishes, I remain,
Very truly yours,
World Tourists, Inc.,
Jacob Golos, Manager.
Mr. Rankin. That is the same Eisler that the Negro witness Nowell
testified was an instructor in the Communist School of Revolution in
Moscow when he was over there; isn't that right ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes ; that is the same one,
Mr. Rankin. Where is this Golos now ? That is what I would like
to know.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Golos is deceased.
Mr. Rankin. Oh, he is dead.
Mr. Stripling. Miss Bentley, you say you first met Mr. Golos in
October 1938?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. Did your acquaintance with him in connection with
the activities of World Tourists increase to any degree, or was he a
casual acquaintance of yours ?
Miss Bentley. At first he was only a person to whom I gave infor-
mation about the Italian Library of Information and its Fascist activi-
ties. After I left there in the spring of 1939 I continued to have him
as my contact. I suppose now because he thought I was valuable
material that could be used in the future.
I did odd jobs for him like collecting material in the library for use
in what he said were articles in the New Masses, or receiving mail at
my address for him, and that sort of thing.
Mr. Stripling. Do you recall whether or not j'ou ever received any
mail from Mexico addressed to Mr. Golos ?
Miss Bentley. Oh, yes.
Mr. Stripling. Addressed to you but to be delivered to Mr. Golos?
Miss Bentley. No. Canada, not Mexico.
Mr. Stripling. Did any of that mail come from Fred Rose ?
Miss Bentley. I can't state of my own knowledge, Mr. Stripling,
because I didn't look inside the envelopes, but I suspect it may have
been.
Mr. Stripling. Do you recall what year it was you transmitted mail
from Canada to Mr. Golos?
Miss Bentley. Yes. I can tell you almost exactly. It was 1939,
1940.
Mr. Stripling. Did Mr. Golos ever ask you to perform any special
duties for him in connection with any work that he was doing for the
Communist Party in behalf of the Soviet Union ?
Miss Bentley. Later on, yes ; but do you mean in this period ?
Mr. Stripling. Any period.
Miss Bentley. Later on ; yes.
Mr. Stripling. When was that?
Miss Bentley. At about the start of the Russian-German war which
would be around June or July of 1941.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 507
]Mi'. Stkiplix(J. What did lie ask you to do?
Miss Bextley. He asked me to take charge of individuals and
groups. This was a gradual process, not all at once. It was to take
charge of individuals and groups who were employed in the United
States Government and in positions to furn.ish information.
JNlr. Striplixg. What kind of information?
Miss Bentley. All sorts of information — political, military, what-
ever they could lay their hands on.
Mr. Striplixg. Was he operating or had he set up a so-called
espionage organization to obtain information from Government em-
ployees and Government ofiicials to be transmitted to the Soviet Union ?
j\Iiss Bexteey. I think that he set it up. I rather doubt that he had
operated it before that. Of course, I can't state definitely.
Mr. Stkiplix^g. It was in operation, however, when you knew him ?
]\[iss Bex^tley. Yes.
Mr. Striplixg. Would you tell the committee how this espionage
organization operated and 3'our participation in it?
Miss Bex'tley. It started with actual Government emploj'^ees in
about July 1941. when he told me that he had received from Earl
Browder the name of a man working for the United States Govern-
ment, who was interested in helping in getting information to Russia
and who could organize a group of other Government employees to
help in this work.
Mr. Rax^kix'. What kind of employees?
Miss Bex^tley. Government employees.
Mr. Striplix-^g. Did he tell you the name of the individual?
Miss Bextley, Yes.
Mr. Striplix'g. Who Avas the individual?
Miss Bex'tley. N. Gregory Sih^ermaster.
Mr. Striplixg. Did you know him also as Nathan Gregory Silver-
master? Was that his first name?
Miss Bextley. I think he told me his first name was Nathan, but
he had never used it. I believe that is it.
Mr. Striplixg. In what agency of the Government was Mr. Silver-
master employed at that time?
Miss Bextley. He was with the Farm Security Administration in
the Agriculture Department, and then in 1943, briefly, perhaps 6
months or so, he was in the BEW.
Mr. Striplixg. The Bureau of Economic Warfare?
Miss Bextley. Yes.
iVIr. Striplixg. Mr. Chairman, I have INIr. Silvermaster's employ-
ment history, which I would like to put into the record at this point.
However, I do not want to interrupt her testimony right now.
The CiiAiRMAx. May I ask a question right there for the record?
Was Mr. Silvermaster ever a witness before this committe or a
subcommittee of this committee in executive session ?
INIr. Striplix^g. Mr. Silvermaster — Do you mean was he ever a
witness before this committee?
The Chairmax. In executive session.
Mr. Striplixg. Mr. Silvermaster testified before the committee,
Mr. Chairman, on May 25 of this year. If you would like, I can read
his own testimon}^ as to his employment history in the Government.
The Chairmax^. Do you want to just put it in the record?
508 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Rankin. I want to know where he is now.
The Chairman. All right, put it in.
Mr. Kankin. Read it. Is he on the Federal pay roll now?
Miss Bentley. I have been told he is out of the Government. I
think Mr. Stripling would know more about it than I.
Mr. Rankin. Let's bring the investigation down to date.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Rankin, he resigned last year when his salary
was cut from $10,000 a year to $8,000.
Mr. Rankin. He resigned what position?
Mr. Stripling. I will give you that. iVt the time he resigned he
was in War Assets.
Mr. Rankin. You mean he was a member of the Communist Party
at that time ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. An agent of the Conununist International?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I think you would call it that.
Mr. Rankin. And was employed by the War Assets Administration
here in Washington ?
Miss Bentley. He was employed by the War Assets Administration
after I knew him.
Mr. Rankin. I am talking about last year, within the last year.
As I understand from your testimony, this man was on the Federal
pay roll, was employed by the War Assets Administration and was
a member of the Communist Party and an agent of the Conununist
International ; is that correct ?
Miss Bentley. I haven't seen him since the end of September 1944.
I can only tell you what he was up to that date. He was, during the
time I knew him ; yes.
Mr. Rankin. He was an employee, then, of the War Assets Adminis-
tration.
Miss Bentley. Not at that time; no. He was back in the Agri-
culture Department when I said good-by to him.
Mr. Rankin. But he was in the employ of the Federal Government?
Miss Bentley. That is correct; yes.
Mr. Rankin. He was a member of the Communist Party, you say ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Rankin. And an agent of the Communist International ?
Miss Bentley. Probably an agent of the NKVD would be more
correct.
Mr. Rankin. That is the Russian Communist secret police?
Miss Bentley. Tliat is correct.
Mr. Rankin. And the Communists are dedicated to the overthrow
of this Government; is that right?
Miss Bentley. That is right.
The Chairman. Will you read that, please?
Mr. Stripling. This is in regard to the question asked about his em-
ployment in the Government.
He was first employed in the California State Relief Administra-
tion. Then, he testified that in August of 1935 :
I was offered a position in Wasliinuton with the Resettlement Administration.
I was with the Resettlement Adnnnistration from 19.35 on. In 1937, I believe, I
left Resettlement to accept a position with tiie United States Maritime Uabor
Board, and then in 1938 I went back to Resettlement, which was then the Farm
Security Administration, where I headed the Labor Division. Then, I believe it
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 509
was June of 1942 or 1943, I transferred to the Office of Surplus Property of the
Procurement Division, and from there, by administrative changes, to the Com-
merce Department Office of Surplus Property, and from there by reorganization
to RFC.
Mr. Stripling. Did you say "by reorganization"?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Yes. Surplus Property Administration has gone through a
series of administrative evolutions, you might .say, and the Office of Surplus
Property of Procurement was moved from Procurement. It had handled con-
sumer goods. The consumer goods was in one agency and capital and producer
goods was in another agency. I was with the consumer goods in Procurement,
Treasury Procurement, in the Office of Procurement, and then the Commerce De-
partment, and then RFC, and finally War Assets, which integrated all of the
units under one administration.
Mr. Rankin. Did the investigator ask him at that time if he was
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes; he was asked that question.
Mr. Rankin. What did he sa}'?
Mr. Stripling. He refused to answer that question, Mr. Rankin, on
the grounds that he might incriminate himself.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know where Mr. Silvermaster is employed now?
]Mr. Stripling. He is not employed in the Government. He is under
subpena of this committee, and I think the committee will have him
here.
Mr. MuNDT. Has he any connection with the United Nations?
]Mr. Stripling. No, sir.
Now, Miss Bentley, will you continue with your testimony?
We were at the point where Mr. Golos had told you there was an
individual in the Federal Government who was to furnish information
to him.
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. Were there other people in the Government in this
group that Mr. Golos referred to ?
Miss Bentley. This was the first group of Government employees,
the first Government employees which Mr. Golos had taken on, and
which I, in the position of courier
Mr. Stripling. You were a courier ?
Miss Bentley. I v.as the person who made trips to Washington and
picked up the material and brought it back to Mr. Golos.
Mr. Stripling. How often did you come to Washington ?
Miss Bentley. About every 2 weeks.
Mr. Stripling. Can you name any other individuals that you know
of your own knowledge were members of this group, this espionage
group ?
Miss Bentley. Yes. Mrs. Silvermaster aided in it, although she
gave no information. She helped with the photography end of it.
William Ludwig Ullmann.
Mr. Stripling. Was he in the Air Corps at that time ?
Miss Bentley. The first time I knew Lud he was in the Treasury
Department.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know what position he held in the Treasury
Department ?
Miss Bentley. No; I don't.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know whether he was ever in the Air Corps
or not ?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; he was.
510 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. During tlie war?
Miss Bentley. Yes; he was stationed in the Pentagon most of the
time.
Mr. Rankin. Is he a Communist?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Could you name any other members of the group
who were employed in the Government ?
(No response.)
Mr. Rankin. May I ask where this man Ulhnann is now ?
Is he still with us ?
Is he still operating in the Pentagon ?
_Mr. Stripling. From the investigators who have been working on
his case, I learn that he is no longer in the Treasury Department.
May I ask you, Miss Bentley, was one Solomon Adler a member of
this group?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; he was.
]\Ir. Stripling. Was he a rather active participant?
Miss Bentley. Rather remotely, Mr. Sti'ipling, because at the time
I had charge of that group he was in China.
Mr, Rankin. Mr. Stripling
The Chairman. We had better continue.
Mr. Rankin. I want to find out about this.
The Chairman. We had better let the chief investigator ask her
any questions, and then we can ask questions later, because we have
got a long way to go.
Mr. Stripling. Miss Bentley, did you collect the Communist Party
dues for Mr. Adler and turn them over to Mr. Silvermaster? Do
you recall doing that?
Miss Bentley. Mr. Silvermaster gave me the dues for his complete
group and I take it for granted those included Mr, Adler, Since he
was in China, I am not too sure about it,
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet Mr. Adler yourself?
Miss Bentley, No ; I never did.
Mr. Stripling. Did you understand that he at any time worked with
this group ?
Miss Bentley, Yes ; I did understand that,
Mr, Stripling, Do you know where Mr, Adler is employed at the
present time ?
Miss Bentley, No; I am afraid I do not,
Mr, Stripling, Mr, Chairman, according to our investigation Mr,
Adler is presently employed by the United States Treasury Depart-
ment in the Office of International Finance,
Are there any other persons who were employed in the Government
at that time who were members of this espionage group?
Miss Bentley, Yes, William Taylor,
Mr, Stripling, Where was he employed ?
Miss Bentley, William was in the Treasmy,
Mr, Stripling. Do you know what position he held in the Treasury?
Miss Bentley. No"; I don't. He had a number of positions and
he was also sent abroad at various times, I believe he went to China ;
I believe he was sent to Portugal at one time.
The Chairman. By the Ti-easury De]iartment?
Miss Bentley. By the Treasury; yes.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 511
Mr. Striplixg. Were there any other individuals in the Treasury
Department who were working M'ith your group ?
Miss Bentley. With the Silvermaster group?
Mr. Strii'ling. Yes.
Miss Bentley. Yes; Harry Dexter White.
Mr. Stripling. What was Mr. White's position ?
Miss Bentley. I believe he was Assistant Secretary of the Treas-
ury. Is that correct, or do you call him an Under Secretary? I am
not sure.
Mr. Stripling. Assistant Secretary of the Treasury
The Chairman. The witness says she believes. What was he ? We
want to know.
jNIr. Stripling. He was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury and
head of Monetary Research, as I recall.
Mr. Rankin. Is he a Communist ?
JNIiss Bentley. I don't know whether Mr. White was a card-carrying
Communist or not.
Mr. Stripling. What was the extent of his cooperation with your
group ?
Miss Bentley. He gave information to Mr. Silvermaster which was
relayed on to me.
Mr. Stripling. At this junction, give us the mechanical operations
of the Silvermaster group. Before you do that, in order to clarify the
expression "Silvermaster group," were there other groups operating
within the Government collecting information on behalf of the Soviet
Union ?
Miss Bentley. I had one other group that I handled, and I had every
reason to believe there were other groups also.
Mr. Stripling. What was the other group that you handled ?
Miss Bentley. We called it the Perlo group. It was actually an
ex-Communist Party unit that I believe had been set up in Washing-
ton in the early thirties, and I gather, from what the members of tlie
group told me, that they had been in a minor way collecting informa-
tion for some years but not in an organized fashion.
IVIr. Stripling. Do you know this other group that you refer to
which you said was set up in the early thirties — Vvas that the group,
or did you ever hear it was the group, set up by Hal Ware ?
Miss Bentley. No; I never heard of that angle of it before.
Mr. MuNDT. You call it the Perlo group?
Miss Bentley. I call it the Perlo group because the ostensible leader
of it was Victor Perlo.
Mr. Stripling. AVhere was Mr. Perlo employed at that time ?
Miss Bentley. In the WPB.
Mr. Stripling. Could you tell us what kind of position he held in
the War Production Board ?
Miss Bentley. I can't tell you the title which I didn't know, but
he was in a position that was handling aircraft production figures, be-
cause he had ready access to those.
Mr. MuNDT. Did he supply you with those figures ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. Were any Members of the Congress, House or Senate,
in that group ?
Miss Bentley. No; I am sorry; no.
512 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Miss Bentley, when was this you were in contact
with Victor Perlo when he was in the War Production Board — '43 and
'44?
Miss Bentley. I took that group over in about, I think, March of
1944.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, if the committee desires, I shall read
into the record the employment history of Mr. Perlo.
Tlie Chairman. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Mr. Stripling. All right.
The Chairman. The committee w^oulcl like to have the employment
record of each one of these read.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I shall read other information re-
garding his background, which has been obtained by the investigation
conducted by the staff of this committee :
Victor Perlo : The above-named individual was born on May 15, 1912, in New
York City. His parents were both born in Russia. His father's name was Samuel
and his mother's name was Rachel. Mr. Perlo attended scliool in Flushing, N. Y.
In 1931 he received an A. B. degree from Columbia University, and in 1932 he
received an M. A. degree. From June until July 1930 Mr. Perlo was employed
as a bank clerk in New York City. In 1931 and 1932 he was employed by a boys'
camp in Massachusetts. From September 1933 until June 1935 Mr. Perlo was
employed by the NRA. From June 1935 until Octol)er 1937, Mr. Perlo was em-
ployed by the Federal Home Loan Bank Board. From October 1937 until Sep-
tember 1939 Mr. Perlo was associated with the Brookings Institution. From
September 1939 until September 1940 Mr. Perlo was employed by the Depart-
ment of Commerce. From November 15, 1940, until February 17, 1943, Mr. Perlo
was employed by the Advisory Council on National Defense of the OPA. From
February 17, 1943, until May 1, 1945, Mv. Perlo was employed by the War Pro-
duction Board. From May 1, until December 14, 1945, Mr. Perlo was employed
by the Civilian Production Administration. Beginning December 14, 1945, Mr.
Perlo was employed by the Treasury Department, Office of Monetary Research,
which was the agency Harry Dexter White headed.
Mr. Mundt. Do you know where he is now ?
Mr. Stripling. We do not.
Mr. Rankin. Was he a Communist all during that time?
Miss Bentley. I would rather imagine so, Congressman, from what
he told me when I met him in '44. He told me he had been a Com-
munist over 10 years, so I imagine so.
Mr. Stripling. Did Victor Perlo turn information over to you?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; he did.
Mr. Stripling. Information which had been obtained from people
who were employed in the Government ?
Miss Bentley. Yes; either he or members of his group turned it
over ; yes.
Mr. Stripling. Could you name other members of his group before
we go on with the Silvermaster group ?
Miss Bentley. Yes. 1 will try to remember them. Allan Rosenberg.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know where he was employed ?
Miss Bentley. Yes; he was in the FEA.
Mr. Stripling. In what ?
Miss Bentley. I don't know what those initials are.
Mr. Stripling. Was it the Board of Economic Warfare?
Miss Bentley. It was originally BEW, but then it became FEA,
Foreign Economic Administration. It was an amalgamation, I under-
stand, of several agencies.
Mr. Stripling. Can j^ou name any other member of the group?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 513
Miss Bentlet. Donald Wheeler.
Mr. Stripling. Was that Donald Niven Wheeler?
Miss Bentley, I don't know his middle name ; I am sorry.
Mr. Stripling. Was it Donald or David?
Miss Bentley. Donald.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know where he was employed ?
Miss Bentley. OSS.
Mr. Stripling. Office of Strategic Services?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. Any other members of the Perlo group ?
Miss Bentley. Charles Kramer.
INIr. Stripling. His real name was Charles Krevitsky. Did you
know that ?
Miss Bentley. I have been told that ; yes.
Mr. Stripling. Where was he employed at that time ?
Miss Bentley. I believe at the time I first met him he was in between
jobs. Then I believe he went with — is it Senator? — Kilgore. I am
not sure whether he was a Congressman or Senator. Later he went
with Senator Pepper.
The Chairman. Where is he now?
Mr. jNIundt. Is that Kramer the man you are talking about now ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Is Kramer a Communist ?
ISIiss Bentley. Oh, yes; of long standing, according to the story he
told me.
Mr. Stripling. I think that is rather certain, Mr. Chairman. If I
may read from the testimony which we took from him on July 2 —
I believe Mr. McDowell took the testimony
Mr. Mundt. I would like to have that testimony.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Kramer first gave his employment record. He
said :
My last Governmeut employment was with the subcommittee of the Com-
mittee on Education and Labor of the Senate. Prior to that I worked for
the Office of Price Administration, and prior to that I worked for the National
Labor Relations Board, and prior to that for the United Mine Workers of
America ; prior to that for another subcommittee of the United State Senate
Committee on Education and Labor ; prior to that for the National Youth Admin-
istration ; prior to that for the Agricultural Adjustment Administration and
prior to that for the Institute of Social and Religious Research ; prior to that for
New York University.
Mt, Kramer, when asked if he was a member of the Communist
Party, refused to answer on the grounds tliat he might incriminate
himself.
Mr. Mundt. The two who were named just before Kramer — you
neglected to ask if they were Communists.
Mr. Stripling. Allan Rosenberg and Donald Wlieeler.
Miss Bentley. Yes ; they were.
Mr. Mundt. Both of them were Communists?
Miss Bentley. They were both Communists.
Mr. Stripling. Can you name any other members of the Perlo
group ?
Miss Bentley. Edward Fitzgerald.
Mr. Stripling, Edward J. Fitzgerald?
Miss Bentley. I don't know his middle initial, either.
80408—48 2
514 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
INIr. Stripling. Do you know where lie was employed ?
Miss BENTI.EY. WPB.
Mr. Stripling. Was he a member of the Communist Part}^ ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Are there aiij- other members of the Perlo group ?
Miss Bentley. Yes. I don't recall his first name, because I only
met him once — Magcloff.
Mr. Stripling. Harry Magdoff ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct ; 3'es.
Mr. Mdndt. Where was he employed ?
Miss Bentley. At the time I first met him he had just returned from
the Mayo Clinic in Kochester after a serious operation, and I believe
he didn't take any job for a bit, and then he went into the Commerce
Department.
Mr. Stripling. I have his employment record.
Mr. MuNDT. Was that during the time Henry Wallace was head
of the Commerce Department ?
Miss Bentley. I think probably part of the time; yes. I am not
too clear on when Mr. Wallace went in there.
Mr. McDowell. Do you know if this man is now employed in the
United States Government service?
Miss Bentley. No ; I wouldn't know. Most of these people I have
completely lost track of, but I imagine the committee probably knows
where they are.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling, are you going to develop what kind
of information was turned over by these groups to this witness?
Mr. Stripling. Yes, Mr. Chairman; but I want first to identify
the people that comprised these groups. Then we will move from
that to the type of information turned over; what the witness did
with the information after it was turned over.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Stripling, will you be able to show that these
groups are still operative ^
Mr. Stripling. I would ratlier not say at this time, Mr. Eankin.
I would like to complete this testimony.
Mr, Rankin. That is what I am mostly interested in.
Mr. MuNDT. I think we should take it up in chronological order
and not jump to conclusions.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, do 3^011 want the employment record
of Mr. Magdoff?
The Chairman. Yes,
Mr, Stripling, April 1936 — rather, from October 11, 1931, until
May 31, 1935, Magdoff was employed by the Silk Textile Code Au-
thority, NRA, New York City. In the year 1935 he is reported to
have been ill. From April 1936 until May 1940 Magdoff was em-
ployed by WPA as a statistician and on the national research project.
From October 1, 1940, until August 15, 1941, he was employed in the
Statistical Division of the War Production Board and Office of Emer-
gency Management. August 16, 1941, until May 17, 1943, he was
employed by the War Production Board in its Bureau of Research
and Statistics. From May 18, 1943, until July 3, 1944, he was em-
ployed by the Tools Division of War Production Board. July 4,
1944, to March 1946 he was employed in the District of Columbia
by the Bureau of Foreign and Domestic Commerce. Magdoff was em-
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 515
ployed by the Office of the Secretary of Commerce about April 1946
uiit'il December 17, 1946. Since the latter date he has been employed
by the New Comicil of American Business in New York City.
Did you ever collect any dues from Mr. Magdoff ?
Miss Bextley. The dues were brought to me by whicliever member
of the group came to New York City, and Mr. Magdoff's dues were
among them; yes.
Mr. SxRiPLmG. What did you do with his dues when they were
turned over to you?
Miss Bentley. I turned them over to Mr. Golos during his life-
time.
Mr. Stripling. Now, have you named all the participants in the
Perlo espionage gi'oup?
Miss Bentley. No. There was Harold Glasser, of the Treasury.
Mr. Stripling. All right.
Mr. Muxdt. Is Harold Glasser a Communist?
]\Iiss Bextley. Yes; they all were. This was an ex-Communist
Party unit, which means automatically they were Communists.
Mr. MrxDT. '"Ex" — that means previous.
Miss Bextley. It means before that they had been tied up only, as
I understand it, with the Communist Party, but then they were turned
over to me. Maybe I am using the wrong phraseology.
Mr. Muxdt. Thank you.
Mv. Striplixg. Would you like his employment record ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Strip^^ixg. This is Harold Glasser. This individual was born
November 23, 1905, Chicago, 111. His parents were Myra Glasser
and Rachel Olswang. Both of them were born in Russia.
F]-om ld'2'2 until 1928 Glasser studied at the University of Chicago.
From 1929 until 1930 Glasser studied at Harvard University. From
1930 to 1931 he studied at the University of Chicago. During part
of 1931 until 1932 Glasser was attached to the Brookings Institution
in AVashington. D. C. From 1932 until 1933 Glasser was attached
to the Labor Bureau of the Midwest in Chicago. From 1933 until
1935 Glasser taught at the Peoples Junior College in Chicago. On
August 16, 1935, Glasser became employed bv the WPA. This em-
ployment lasted until April 16, 1936. On May i, 1936, Glasser be-
came an employee of the Department of Agriculture, Minneapolis,
Minn. November 21, 1936, Glasser's employment with the Depart-
ment of Agriculture ceased, and he became an employee of the Treas-
ury Department in Washington. He was attached to the Division
of Monetary Research. On June 15, 1940, Glasser was loaned by the
Treasury Department to the Government of Ecuador. He served in
this capacity until May 1942, at which time he returned to the Treas-
ury Department. On November 30, 1942, Glasser was loaned to the
War Production Board, where he remained until January 10, 1943.
From February 1943 until September 1943 Glasser was an adviser on
the North African Affairs Committee at Algiers, North Africa.
Are there any other members of the Perlo group that you have not
named. ^liss Bentley?
Miss Bextley. There is just one more who didn't give any infor-
mation, but I know he belonged to the group, and that is Lischinsky —
Sol Lis-hinskv. He was with UNRRA.
516 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. What was his first name ?
Miss Bentley. Sol. I suppose it would be Solomon.
Mr. Stripling. Did you name everyone in the Silvermaster group ?
Miss Bentley. No.
Mr. Stripling. Would you continue to name them?
Mr. Kankin. Let's get something on this last man she named. Let's
get the facts on him.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Rankin, we don't have any information on this
gentleman ourselves.
Mr. Rankin. Maybe she has some.
Miss Bentley. I have very little. I did not meet him personally.
I just know what they told me about him and he never produced any
information, so we didn't consider him too valuable.
Mr. Rankin. You don't know where he is now ?
Miss Bentley. No ; I know where very few of these people are right
now.
The Cpiairman. Will the chief investigator get this information?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Peterson. I would like to ask a question. We want to be sure
we are not unfair to anyone.
With reference to the employment of Kramer, I believe the state-
ment was made that he had been employed by Senator Kilgore and
Senator Pepper. I believe the employment record did not refer to
that but referred to a committee. Do you know whether they were
employed individually by the Senators or by the committee of which
they were members ?
Miss Bentley. I don't know that. I know he simply referred to
it in that way, and I don't know exactly whether he was an employee
of the Senators personally or of the committee.
Mr. Peterson. You don't know of your own knowledge that he
was employed by either of the Senators ?
Miss Bentley. No.
Mr. McDowell. If I recollect, Mr. Peterson, he testified he worked
in Senator Pepper's office.
Mr. Peterson. I didn't hear that testimony at the time, but I notice
in that he referred to committee employment.
Mr. Rankin. When was that testimony taken?
Mr. McDowell. While you were out.
Mr. Rankin. This morning?
Mr. McDowell. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. I didn't hear it.
Mr. Stripling. According to our investigation, Mr. Kramer actually
worked in Senator Pepper's office while he was on the pay roll of the
Subcommittee on Education and Labor. I think you will find that
he was quite active.
Mr. Rankin. Didn't he work in some other Senators' offices and
wasn't he insti'umental in trumping up the charges for the persecution
of Senator Bilbo?
Mr. Stripling. I don't know a thing about that, Mr. Rankin.
Mr. Rankin. I think we should have some information on that point.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 517
The CHAiR:\rAX. Mr, Striplin<>:. you may proceed.
Mr. STKiriAXG. Miss Bentley. will you now go back to the Silver-
master group and name any individual who was a part of that group
that has not already been previously mentioned?
IMiss Bextley. George Silverman.
Mr. Stripling, George Silverman?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Where was he employed?
Miss Bentley. Originally in, I think you call it, the Railroad Re-
tirement Board.
Mr. Stripling. Yes,
Miss Bentley, And when the war came he was given a quite im-
portant post with the Air Corps as a civilian in The Pentagon. I be-
lieve he was offered a colonelcy, but he turned it down and remained a
civilian employee there.
Mr. Stripling. Was Silverman a member of the Communist Party ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling, You collected dues from him?
]Miss Bentley. Yes.
]Mr, Stripling. Did he furnish information to your group?
Miss Bentley. Oh, quite prolific information.
Mr. Stripling. Before we go on with what was furnished, would
you tell the committee whether or not there is anyone else in this group
that you have not named ?
Miss Bentley. Frank Coe.
Mr. Stripling, Where was he employed?
Miss Bentley. In the Treasury.
Mr. Stripling. Do you Icnow what his position was ?
]\Iiss Bentley. No; I am sorry. All these people Mr. Silvermaster
took care of, and I simply knew they had important jobs in the
Treasury, but I couldn't tell you what it was.
]\Ir. Stripling. He was a member of the Communist Party, accord-
ing to j^our information?
Miss Bentley. According to my understanding; yes.
Mr. Stripling. x4.nyone else?
Miss Bentley. William Gold.
Mr. Stripling. G-o-l-d?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Wliere was he employed ?
Miss Bentley. I believe it w^as then the FEA. I can't recall whether
BEAV or FEA, but it was that same outfit.
Mr. Stripling. Was he a member of the Communist Party ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr, Stripling, Did he furnish mformation to your group?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; he did.
Mr. Stripling. Is there anyone else you haven't named?
Miss Bentley, Yes ; his wife, Sonia Gold,
Mr, Stripling. AVas she an employee of the Government?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; in the Treasury.
Mr. Rankin. Let me ask about this man Kramer. I was out when
you were testifying about him. Do you say Kramer was a member
of the Communist Party?
Miss Bentley. He told me he had been a member for a good many
years.
518 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Ml'. Raxkix. That is all I wanted to know. My recollection is he
was one of the chief men who dug up those charges for the persecution
of Senator Bilbo, who was dying of cancer and fighting on the floor
of the Senate against this communistic program they are trying to
put through now, and I think this man Kramer was one of the chief
men in that conspiracy.
Mr. Stripling. Are there any other members. Miss Bentley, of the
Silvermaster group ?
Miss Bentley. Let's see, now, did I mention Irving Kaplan I
Mr. Stripling. You did not mention Mr. Kaplan. Where was he
employed ?
Miss Bentley. He v/as employed in the WPB. He was in a very
peculiar position because he was paying his dues to the Perlo group
and giving his information to the Silvermaster group. Somehow the
two groups got a little scrambled at that point.
jNIr. Stripling. Are there any others ?
The Chairman. When you have an employment record on any of
these people, we would like to have it read.
Mr, Ra.nkin. Wasn't this man Kaplan a member of this so-called
FEPC that was set up here in Washington by Executive order?
Miss Bentley. I am sorry, I don't know that.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know an individual by the name of Herbert
Schimmell?
Miss Bentley. No, I am sorry.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know John Abt?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
]Mr. Stklpling. Was he a member of either group ?
Miss Bentley. John Abt was the man who took charge of the Perlo
group before I had it.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know whether John Abt was employed in
the Government ?
Miss Bentley. No; I know very little about him except I believe
he was with the PAC at one time. Oi- the PCA.
Mr. Stripling. He is with Mr. Wallace noAv.
]Mr. Rankin. Get that PAC. That is very important. You mean
the CIO-PAC? Is that what you are talking about?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. Is he still with them ?
Miss Bentley. I know very little about Mr. Abt. I only met him
twice and then only for the purpose of his introducing me to the
members of the Perlo group so that I could take it over.
Mr. Rankin. You do know he was a Communist ?
Miss Bentley. Oh, yes.
Mr. Stripling. Are there any other members of the Silvermaster
group ?
Miss Bentley. Yes, Norman Bursler.
Mr. Stripling. Whei-e was he employed?
Miss Bentley. Antitrust Division of the Department of Justice.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know whether John Abt was ever employed
in the Department of Justice ?
Miss Bentley. I know practically nothing of John Abt's back-
ground, I am sorry.
Mr. Mundt. Mr. Chairman, before it slips my mind I would like
to suggest that our staff bring the employment record on all names
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 519
mentioned here today down to date, iiu'luding tlie present positions
they hold either in pnblic or private life.
The Chairman. Withont objection, it is so ordered.
jNlr. Striplixc. Mr. Chairman. 1 have certain information here on
Mr. Abt, but with the Chair's permission I would like to present it to
the committee in executive session, because of an investigation which
we have going on.
The reason, Mr. Mundt, that we do not have the employment record
of all these people is we have not previously interviewed this witness
in any way. We have not been in touch with her at all. The reason
these matters coincide is because we already had through our inves-
tigations the information that these people were involved.
ISlr. MuNDT. I am interested, Mr. Stripling, in getting their employ-
ment records down to date, because our experience on another com-
mittee of the House has been that, especiall}^ where Communists have
been employed in the State Department and then removed because of
loyalty charges, they have gravitated to the United Nations. I want
to find out if some of these other people have had similar experience.
Mr. Stripling. Yes, sir. We will begin working on that.
Are there any other names. Miss Bentley, of the Silvermaster group
that you have not mentioned?
Miss Bentley. Just one. The man was not a Communist but he
did give information. Lauchlin Currie.
JNIr. Stripling. What type of information did he give ?
Miss Bentley. Well, being in the position he was in, he had inside
information on Government policy,
Mr. Stripling. Was he a secretary to the President of the United
States?
Miss Bentley. I believe that was his title. I am not sure. I knew
he was one of that circle around the President ; yes.
Mv. Stripling. He was employed in the White House, was he not?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. What information did he furnish? What type?
Miss Bentley. He furnished inside information on this Govern-
ment's attitude toward China, tow^ard other governments. He once
relayed to us the information that the American Government was on
the verge of breaking the Soviet code, various things.
Mr. Stripling. But Mr. Currie was not a member of the Communist
Party to your knowledge?
Miss Bentley. Not to my knowledge ; I don't believe so.
Mr. Mundt. Wliere was he employed?
Miss Bentley. In the White House.
Mr. Stripling. Secretary to the President.
Mr. Mundt. President Truman?
Mr. Stripling. President Roosevelt.
Mr. Rankin. When was that?
Mr. Stripling. What year was that?
Miss Bentley. That was in 1943, 1944 — I believe he was there in
1942 also. I think in 1944 he moved into the FEA. At least, he had
a high-up position there.
Mr. Rankin. As a matter of fact, Mr. Mclntyre was secretary to the
President at that time, wasn't he ?
Miss Bentley. I don't know what Mr. Currie's title was, but I
think he is sufficiently well known so that someone would know.
520 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Rankin. If I remember correctly, Mr, Mclntyre was succeeded
by Steve Early.
Miss Bentley. Not that type of secretary. If he was a secretary at
all, he was an adviser to the President and not a secretary.
Mr. Rankin. I see. You tell the committee that this man Currie,
while he was employed in the White House, was giving your Com-
munist organization secret information?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. Why did you wait so long to report that ?
Miss Bentley. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Rankin. Why did you wait so long to report that information
to a committee of Congress ?
(No response.)
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Can we develop that a little later?
Mr. Rankin. It is very important. You were charging that there
was a Russian spy in the White House, and I would like to get the facts
about it now.
Mr. Stripling. The reason as to why she didn't report this earlier,
Mr. Rankin, we are coming to that.
Mr. Rankin. All right. I don't want to interrupt the gentleman's
procedure.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, in connection with Lauchlin Currie,
we have the file of the Civil Service Commission on Nathan Gregory
Silvermaster.
The Chairman. By the way. How do you spell that name?
Mr. Stripling. L-a-u-c-h-1-i-n C-u-r-r-i-e. The Civil Service Com-
mission had under investigation Nathan Gregory Silvermaster over a
long period of time. We have a file about this tall [indicating].
Mr. Rankin. What was that statement?
Mr. Stripling. We have a very voluminous file which the Civil Serv-
ice Commission accumulated on Nathan Gregory Silvermaster. From
time to time they would hear him regarding his alleged Communist
affiliations. We have a memorandum which states that after hearing
Mr. Silvermaster they were referred to Lauchlin Currie to get the true
facts on Silvermaster. After conferring with Lauchlin Currie, Mr.
Silvermaster remained in his employ. That is according to the files of
the Civil Service Commission.
Miss Bentley. May I say something, Mr. Stripling?
The Chairman. Miss Bentley.
Miss Bentley. It was definitely from my own knowledge due to Mr.
Currie's influence that Mr. Silvermaster was not ousted from his job
in the BEW but was permitted to return to the Agriculture Depart-
ment without any stigma on him.
Mr. Stripling'. Mr. Chairman, it is quite evident from examination
of the file, which I should be glad to place before the committee, that
there was some influence involved because the record was very straight
as to Mr. Silvermaster's long Communist associations and he was never
dismissed from the Government for that reason.
To clarify a point, Mr. Rankin, which we have checked, Mr. Charles
Kramer, whose name is Charles Krevitsky, was staff director on the
Education and Labor Committee, according to our information, and
Senator Pepper was chairman of the subcommittee.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 521
Mr. Kankik. I want to ask one more question.
AVas this man Cnrrie, whom you say was empk)yed in the White
House — was he under David K. Niles ?
Miss Bentley. I don't knoAv whether he was under Mr. Niles or
whether he worked as a coworker with Mv. Niles.
jNIr. Raxkix. But I understand from your statement that they were
associated.
Miss Bextley. From what I have heard, yes; they were associated,
but I don't know the relationship between them.
Mr. RAX'KIX^ Was Mr. Niles mixed up in all this movement that you
are talking about?
Miss Bextley. Not to my knowledge. From what I have heard of
Mr. Niles he wasn't, but I can't state of my own knowledge.
Mr. Raxkix . I see.
The Chairman. The chairman would like to make a statement at
this time. The committee will go into executive session at this time
and then shortly after that we will recess and convene again promptly
at 1 : 30 with Miss Bentley as a witness at that time.
Miss Bentley, will you stay there, please.
Mr. StripliX'G. Mr. Chairman, could we reconvene at 1:15?
The Chairman. All right, we will make it 1 : 15.
The committee will now recess. We will go into executive session.
(Whereupon, at l^J : 01 p. m., the committee retired into executive
session.)
afternoon session
Mr. Mux-^DT (presiding). The committee vrill please come to order.
Mr. Stripling, you may proceed with the interrogation.
Mr. Striplix-^g. Miss Bentley, when the committee recessed at noon,
I believe you had just completed naming the members of the Silver-
master espionage group, as well as the members of the Perlo espionage
group, who were employed in the Government.
Now, are there any other individuals who were members of either
group that you had not named tdda}- ?
Miss Bextley. No ; I don't believe so.
Mr. Striplixg. Could you tell me whether or not at any time the
group attempted to have a Government official transferred to a differ-
ent job in order that he might secure certain information ?
Miss Bentley. Yes: I understand that it was the general policy of
that group and also other groups to transfer anyone in what we would
call a "nonproductive"' job into a job that would be of more use. I
understood that in many cases they had conspired or finagled to move
people into better spots.
Mr. Stripling. Now that we have completed the naming of the
personnel which comprised each group, I vrish you would describe
to the committee the mechanical operation of the group, just how they
operated, what you did. what the group did.
Take the Silvermaster group first.
Miss Bentley. It was my policy to come down almost regularly
every 2 weeks. I would go to the Silvermaster home, very often have
dinner with them, spend the evening, and collect from the'm the infor-
mation which they had previously collected from the members of the
group.
Mr. Stripling. AVhere did he live ?
522 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Miss Bentley. I can't remember the exact street. It was out just
before you get to Chevy Chase Circle. I think it was Thirty-fourth or
Tliirty-fifth Street. I have forgotten the address right now.
Mr. Stripling. Was it in the District of Coknnbia or was it in
Maryland?
Miss Bentley. It was within the District line ; yes. • I will tell you,
it was just about a block from Mr. Curley's
Mr. Stripling. Curley, C-u-r-1-e-y?
Miss Bentley. The former Governor of Massachusetts, was he not'^
Mr. McDowell. You mean Congressman Curley.
Miss Bentley. I believe it was just about a block from his house.
Is that Thirty-second Street ?
Mr. McDowell. There is no attempt here, I judge, to link Mr.
Curley
Miss Bentley. No. It is just that it is hard for me to remember
streets. I remembered how to get there, but it is hard for me to tell
you the street.
Mr. Stripling. Would it be Thirty-fifth Street?
Miss Bentley. No; I think it would be nearer Thirty-second. I
think it would be Thirty-second Street.
Mr. Stripling. We have it here, Mr. Chairman ; we will locate it.
Miss Bentley. I could take you out there, but I cannot remember
the number of it.
Mr. Stripling. What type of infoimation did Mr. Silvermasier
turn over to you ?
Miss Bentley. He turned over whatever members of his group se-
cured, which was varied, depending on the spot the person was in.
Mr. Stripling. What type of information was actually turned over
to you, and which you transferred to Mr. Golos?
Miss Benti>ey. Military information, j)articularly from the Air
Corps, on production of aii'planes, their destinations to the various
theaters of war and to various countries, new types of planes being
put out, information as to when D-day would be, all sorts of inside
military information.
Mr. Stripling. How would you transmit this information, yourself,
acting as a courier for the group ?
Miss Bentley. That depended. In the very early days they either
typed it out or brought me documents. Later on they began photo-
graphing it.
Mr. Stripling. Where was the photographing carried out?
Miss Benixey. In the basement of the Silvermaster house.
Mr. Stripling. They had the equipment there to do it ?
Miss Bentley. Yes; they did. They had a Contax camera, and
had the set-up all ready for putting the documents in and holding the
documents in place.
Mr. Stripling. What did jon do with the photographs or documents
once you received them ?
Miss Bentley. I gave them to Mr. Golos.
Mr. Stripling. I mean, how did you take them back to New York?
Miss Bentley. Well, whatever way was practical. If I had a large
pocketbook and there was room in that, I took them, or in a knitting
bag or a shopping bag or whatever was handy, depending on the size
of the collection.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 523
Mr. Stripling. Did you have large packages of material to take, or
were the}^ usually small ?
Miss Bentley". Yes; toward the end ; yes. Toward the beginning it
was just starting, as you realize, and there was not too much material.
Also at that time we did not have anybody in the Pentagon, but then,
as the war progressed, and as we got people into the Pentagon, the
volume increased quite heavily.
Mr. Stkiplixg. Are you familiar with any specific plans or docu-
ments which came from the Pentagon which you delivered to Mr.
Golos?
Miss Bentley. Most of those documents were photographed and,
therefore, I do not remember the documents.
Mr. Stripling. Well, do you recall any particular photograph, any
particular plans for any aircraft?
JSIiss Bentley. I remember information on the B-29, some of which
was photographed, some of which I typed out.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, to go back to the address of Mr.
Silvermaster, it was 5515 Thirtieth Street.
Is that correct?
Miss Bentley. It was a street next to Thirtieth Place; that would
make it Tliirtieth; yes.
Mr. Stripling. How many trips would you say you made to Mr.
Silvermaster's home to collect information?
Miss Bentley. Well, I went every 2 weeks, and I knew them until
the end of September 1044. I don't know how many that would make,
added to which oftentimes they came up to New York in the mean-
while, and when they came they brought things, so it is, I mean, hard
to figure out exactly how many it would be.
Mr. Mundt. Wliere would they meet you in New York ?
Miss Bentley. Various places. Very often, one or the other of
them stayed in the Hotel Victoria or the Hotel Times Square, and I
would meet them there, or I would have breakfast w-ith them at
Schraffts on Times Square, you know, at Forty-third Street — all sorts
of places we went. We didn't always go to the same place.
Mr. Stripling. Did you meet anyone in Washington besides Mr.
Silvermaster in relation to the Silvermaster group?
Miss Bentley. Yes; I met his wife, Mrs. Helen Silvermaster.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you meet her ?
Miss Bentley. At the house.
Mr. Stripling. Now, you stated that photographs were made
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. In the Silvermaster's basement.
Do you know who made these photographs ?
Miss Bentley. Wlien Mr. Ullmann was available, he did it, because
he made himself into an expert photographer. When he was away,
or if it was just too much for him to handle, Mrs. Silvermaster worked
W'ith him.
Mr. Stripling. Did any of these people mentioned in the Silver-
master group ever come to the Silvermaster home while you were
there ?
Miss Bentley. Just once.
Mr. Stripling. Who was that?
Miss Bentley. George Silverman.
524 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. George Silverman? When you obtained the mate-
rial, you M'ent to New York and you turned it over personally to Mr.
Golos?
Miss Bentley. Yes; until his death; yes.
Mr. Stripling. What did Mr. Golos do with the material ?
Miss Bentley. If the material was nonmilitary, of a political char-
acter, he first took it down to Mr. Earl Browder to show it to him, and
then passed it on to his Russian contact.
Mr. Stripling. Who was the Russian contact?
Miss Bentley. I think that his Russian contact was called Charlie,
but I don't know anything about that. We never kne^^■ them by any
other names than these nicknames.
Mr. Stripling. Did you see Charlie?
Miss Bentley. No, sir; not to my knowledge,
Mr. Stripling. Do you have any idea where Mr. Golos met Charlie ?
Miss Bentley. No; I don't. He was very discreet about his con-
nections.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know by what means Charlie relayed this
information to the Soviet Union ?
Miss Bentley. No ; I don't.
Mr. Stripling. In other words, your job ended when you delivered
it to Mr. Golos ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct ; yes.
Mr. Stripling. Did Mr. Golos ever discuss with you in any detail
the method through which he transferred information ?
Miss Bentley. No ; he was very close-mouthed.
Mr. Stripling. During your activities in the Communist Party
and also during the period you were active as a courier in this espionage
ring, did you have any connection or contact with Louis Budenz?
Miss Bentley. Yes; I did.
Mr. Stripling. He was the general manager of the Daily Worker ?
Miss Bentley. I think that was his title. I thought he was one of
the editors.
Mr. Stripling. Managing editor, I am sorry.
Miss Bentley. He was one of the editors, I know.
Mr. Stripling. What was your relationship with Mr. Budenz in
connection with this work?
Miss Bentley. Well, I was introduced to him about 6 months or so
before Mr. Golos' death, because Mr. Golos was getting quite feeble
then and could not take care of it. He told me that Mr. Budenz was
of great value inasmuch as he had access to contacts who might be
useful to us, and also that he was in contact with people who could
give us useful information.
Mr. Stripling. Did you thereafter meet Mr. Budenz at any time?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Stripling. Did he give any information to you or did you give
any to him?
Miss Bentley. Yes; he did give me information.
Mr. Stripling. What did you do with the information?
Miss Bentley. Brought it back to Mr. Golos as long as he was alive.
Mr. Stripling. What type of information was it that Mr. Budenz
gave you ?
Miss Bentley. He was a friend of Louis Adamic, the well-known
Yugoslav writer, and Mr. Adamic had some unofficial — I. don't believe
morning
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 525
he Mas paid — connection with the OSS which was then interested in
Yuiioslavia ; and Mr. Adamic gave this information to Mr. Budenz.
Mr. Budenz relayed it to me.
Mr. Rankin. What is the name of that man we mentioned this
?
Mr. Stripling. Charles Kramer.
Did you have any personal contact with Earl Browder himself?
Miss Bentley. Yes, I did; but in a business capacity only, after
Mr. Golos' death. Before that it was purely social. In other words,
when Mr. Golos went up to visit Mr. Browder at his summer place at
Monroe he would take me along, and I would talk to Mrs. Browder
and have dinner, but there was no business involved.
Mr. Stripling. Going now to the Perlo espionage group, who turned
the material over that that group collected?
Miss Bentley. I did not quite get that.
Mr. Stripling. Who was it in the Perlo group who turned the mate-
rial over to you?
Miss Bentley. Well, it depends. Whoever was coming to New York
on business or to see their family, or who was selected, came up.
Mr. Stripling. In other words, you did not come to Washington
for the purpose of collecting information from the Perlo group?
Miss Bentley. No ; I did not.
Mr. Stripling. Only the Silvermaster group ?
Miss Bentley. Yes; that is correct.
]\Ir. Stripling. Who, in the Perlo group
Miss Bentley. Well, I met Victor Perlo, Harry Magdoff, Edward
Fitzgerald, Charlie Kramer, Donald Wheeler, Allan Rosenberg.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you meet these people, do you recall ?
Did you have a regular meeting?
Miss Bentley. Yes; I first met them, at least the four I first men-
tioned, I met the first time in Mr. Abt's apartment on Central Park
West.
Mr. Stripling. John Abt ?
Miss Bentley. About One Hundred and Third Street, I think it is.
I don't know the exact number.
Mr. Stripling. But your regular job, so to speak, as a courier, was
in collecting the information from the Silvermaster group here in
AVashington.
Miss Bentley. From the Silvermaster group and various indi-
viduals.
Mr. Stripling. Could you elaborate on the military information
Avhich you secured from the Silvermaster grouj) ?
Miss Bentley. Well, the military information came largely from
George Silverman and Ludwig Ullmann, and, as I said, it was infor-
mation of the most varied things you could think of. We had com-
plete data as to almost all of the aircraft production in the country,
as to types, how many were being produced, where they were allocated,
and so on. We had all sorts of inside information on policies of the
Air Corps. As I said, we knew D-day long before D-day happened,
and we were right. Practically all the inside policies that were going
(m inside the Air Corps. We got quite a bit of information about the
General Hilldring's activities.
Mr. Stripling. Would you identify General Hilldring?
526 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Miss Bentley. Well, I am not quite sure myself what his status was
in there.
Mr. Stripling. What was the type of information that you got
regarding General Hillclring ?
Miss Bentley. Mostly inside policy data on what we were planning
in the way, as I said, of invasions and action in Europe.
Mr. Stripling. Going back for a moment, you gave John Abt's ad-
dress as Central Park West. Was it 4M Central Park West. New
York City?
Miss Bentley. It could have been. I don't remember. I only went
there twice I think it was. It was around One Hundred and Third
Street. Would that be about right?
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet an individual by the name of
Edward Newhouse ?
Miss Bentley. No ; I am sorry.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet an individual by the name of
Louise Bransten?
Miss Bentley, Yes ; I went to college with her.
Mr. Stripling. Did you have any subsequent acquaintance with her
after you left college ?
Miss Bentley. Not in any way that would affect this. I bumped
into her, I think in 1935, clown in Communist Party headquarters,
where we both expressed mutual surprise, and I know that she was a
very good friend of Helen Silvermaster, because Plelen Silvermaster
was always telling me about Louise and her past acquaintance with lier.
Mr. McDow^ELL. You went to Vassar College ?
Miss Bentley. Yes. I understand, from what Louise Bransten
told me, that she went there 2 years and left at the end of the second
year. I don't remember her too well from college.
Mr. Stripling. Miss Bentley, did any of the people who were in-
volved in any of these groups receive any money from the Communist
Party or from yourself or from Mr. Silvermaster that you know of?
Miss Bentley. No; they received no money. They received only
traveling expenses if they had to come to New York.
Mr. Stripling. They did receive traveling expenses ?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; that is correct.
Mr. Stripling. From wdiom did they receive money?
Miss Bentley. Mr. Golos gave it to me, and I gave it to them.
Mr. Stripling. Why were these people furnishing information to
Mr. Golos?
Miss Bentley. Because they had been told that it Avas their duty as
Communists to do it, and they had been told that Russia was our ally,
that she was bearing the brunt of the war, that she was not being
properly treated as an ally, and it was their duty to do something about
it.
(The Chairman, Hon. J. Parnell Thomas, assumes the chair.)
Mr. Striplin*;. Did you receive any money from Mr. Golos in
connection with your activities?
Miss Bentley. No; only expenses.
Mr. Stripling. Where w^ere you employed during this period?
Miss Bentley. In the United States Service and Shipping Cor}).
Mr. Stripling. What was the United States Service and Shippinu"
Corp.? ^
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 527
Miss Bentley. That was an oi-ganization which had a contract
W'ith Intoiirist JMoscow for the forwarding of packages to individuals
in the U. S. S. R.
Mr. STRirLiXG. You have no information as to how this informa-
tion was transmitted to the U. S. S. R. other than that it was turned
over to an individual by the name of Charlie?
Miss Bextley. That was during Mr. Golos' lifetime.
Mr. Stripling. Yes. After Mr. Golos died, what did you do with
the information ?
Miss Bentley. During the years 1941, 1942, and 1943, before Mr.
Golos died, he made alternate arrangements for me to meet contacts,
off and on, just in case anything happened to him and I would have
to carry on, and I had an appointment with one of these individuals
a few clays after Mr. Golos' death. Then I met her, and she said that
she had a new boss for me to meet, and introduced me to an individual
who called himself Bill.
Mr. Stripling. Bill?
Miss Bentley. And I continued to give the stuff to Bill.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know now who Bill was ?
Miss Bentley. Xo ; I don't.
Mr. Stripling. Have you seen him in recent years ?
Miss Bentley. No.
Mr. Stripling. When did you break with the Communist Party?
Mr. MuNDT. Was Bill a Russian or an American?
Miss Bentley. I would say from his accent and his physiognomy
that he was a Russian, although I could not swear to that.
The Chairman. Bill who ?
Mr. Stripling. That is the onh^ identity the witness has. Where
did you meet Bill ?
Miss Bentley. I met him on Park Avenue, about Fiftieth Street,
and he Avas coming one way on the street and we came the other, and
we met there.
Mr. Stripling. And you handed the information to him then?
Miss Bentley. That night I had no information. I had simply
to meet him in order to establish future relations.
Mr. Stripling. Did you meet other individuals who you were to
work with in the event something happened to Mr. Golos?
Miss Bentley. I had up to the end of September 1944, two con-
tacts, Bill and the original girl who had introduced me to Bill, an
American who Avent under the name of Catharine. I usually saw
Bill, but when Bill could not make it, Catharine got there.
Mr. Stripling. During this time did you visit the Communist Party
headquarters?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I went down ever so often to see Earl Browder.
Mr. Stripling. Was it in connection with these espionage activities
or not?
Miss Bentley. Yes; it was. It was in connection with these, be-
cause whenever I received material I continued Mr. Golos' practice
of taking it to show to Earl Browder.
Mr. Stripling. You showed all this material to Earl Brow^der?
]\liss Beniley. Except for the military. He did not wish to have
the military.
Mr. Stripling. The military was turned over to Mr. Golos?
528 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Miss Bentlvy. Well, I understood you were speakino; about after
Mr. Golos' death.
Mr. Stripling. Well, let us get this straight now. Before Mr.
Golos died you turned everything over to him.
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. After he died — — •
Miss Ben I LEY. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. You turned only political material over to Mr.
Browder ?
Miss Bentley. I did not turn it over to him. I took it down and
let him look at it, and then I brought it back, and put it back with
the rest of the material, and passed it on to the Russians.
Mr. Stripling. But you did not show him material that was mili-
tary, any military material?
Miss Bentley. On his own request.
Mr. McDowell. It would be interesting to know why he did not
want to see military material.
Miss Bentley. There probably are a number of reasons, one of
which was that he did not want to be involved too deeply in it. I
don't know.
Mr. McDoavell. He had knowledge, however, that you had that
material ?
Miss Bentley. Oh, yes; but he just did not want to know it,
Mr. Rankin. That is the reason the Cominform ordered him re-
moved and this fellow William Z. Foster was put in his place. That
is testimony brought out before this committee.
By the way, who is this Catharine you referred to ?
Miss Bentley. I don't know.
Mr. Rankin. You do not know her other name?
Miss Bentley. No.
Mr. Rankin. Was she Russian, too?
Miss Bentley. We never knew the other names, and as far as I
know, no one knows.
Mr. Rankin. What did she look like?
Miss Bi^NTLEY. She was either Scotch or Irish, of Scotch or Irish
extraction. I would say she was about 5 foot 8, long and slender,
blond curly hair done in one of these — what do you call them — wind-
blown bobs, light hair, light eyes.
The CiiAiRMXN. If j'^ou saw a picture of her, you would recognize
her?
Miss Bentley. Oh, yes.
Mr. MuNDT. While Mr. Stripling is getting ready for another
question, Miss Bentley, you said a little while ago that when you came
to Washington you contacted either Mr. Silvermaster or other in-
dividuals, indicating there might be some individuals outside of the
Silvermaster group whom you contacted.
Miss Bentley. Yes, there were.
Mr. MuNDT. Were they in the Government?
Miss Bentley. Yes; they Avere in the Government.
Mr. Mundt. Have you given us those names this morning?
Miss Bentley. No; Mr. Stripling has not asked me for them yet.
I was waiting for him to ask.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 529
Mr. MuNDT. I think we ought to complete the roster, if the list is
not too long, and I think you should furnish those names now so we
will have the names before us.
Mr. Stripling. You are referring now, Mr. Mundt, to Government
employees who were not members of either the Silvermaster or the
Perlo group.
Miss Bentlet. Would you like for me to start with that?
Mr. Stripling. Yes ; give those names to the committee.
Miss Bentley. Duncan Lee.
Mr. Stripling. Duncan Lee?
Miss Bextley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Where was he employed?
Miss Bentley. He was one of the legal advisers to Gen. William
Donovan in the OSS.
Mr. MuNDT. Was he a Communist?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. And he was an assistant to whom?
Miss Bentley. Well, there was a circle of lawyers around General
Donovan in the OSS, and he was one of them. He had worked with
General Donovan in his law firm before he went into the OSS.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question at this
point. This is with regard to the names on the list that have already
been covered. I would like to ask a question about the list that has
already been covered. I would like to ask that before you go ahead
with this list, if you want to.
The Chairman. We would rather follow in chronological order and
continue with this list.
Mr. Mundt. Is that all the information you have on Duncan Lee,
Miss Bentlej^ ?
Miss Bentley. What else would you like to know about him?
Mr. Mundt. Wliat kind of information can you give us ?
Miss Bentley. All types of information were given, highly secret
information, on what the OSS was doing, such as, for example, that
they were trying to make secret negotiations with governments in the
Balkan bloc, in case the war ended, that they were parachuting people
into Hungary, that they were sending OSS people into Turkey to
operate in the Balkans and so on. The fact that General Donovan
AN-as interested in having an exchange between the NKVD and the.
OSS, all sorts of information.
Mr. Mundt. Inasmuch as Duncan Lee was not a member, apparently,
of the Silvermaster group, how did you establish the first contact
with him ?
Miss Bentley. Well, Duncan Lee was a member of the IPR, or
Institute for Pacific Relations, in New York, and through that he
knew Mildred Price, who was Mary Price's sister. And when Duncan
Lee was sent down to Washington to join the OSS, Mary came to us,
told us about him, and we were to take him on. Mar}" took care of
him for awhile, and then Mary left Washington, and I took him over
at that ])oint.
Mr. MuxDT. Just how did you establish your first contact with
Duncan Lee when vou first came down? You said, "I am tlie gal
who IS going to be your contact?
80408 — 48 3
530 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Miss Bentley. Well, he had been dealing with Mary. He knew
Mary personally, you see, through her sister, and Mary had told him
about me, and the name I had gone by, which was Helen, and I just
walked into his apartment and said, ''I am Helen," and spoke about
things that only the two of us would know, and that is how we made
our contact.
Mr. MuNDT. So you met him in his apartment to get the informa-
tion?
Miss Bentley. Well, all of this varied. It started with his apart-
ment, and then he got very nervous and wished to meet me in the
street, so we would meet in drug stores, and so on. All of this varied.
There was no standard practice. Sometimes it was one place and
sometimes another.
Mr. jMundt. Who else, then, besides Duncan L^e, in this group of
miscellaneous individuals, belonged to neither group '\
Miss Bentley. Helen Tenney. She worked in the — well, I would
guess you call it the hush-hush division of the OSS, in the Spanish
Division, and then when that sort of dried uj). why, she was handling
the Balkans, too, at one time.
Mr. MuNDT. She was a Communist ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Who else ?
Miss Bentley. J. Julius Joseph.
Mr. MuNDT. Where did he work?
Miss Bentley. Well, originally he was in the predecessor to the
War Manpower Commission. Then he went into the War Manpower
Commission; then, when he was about to be drafted, he pulled strings
through a friend of his, whose name I don't know, and got himself
pullecl out into the OSS, where he was in the hush-hush Japanese
Division, which was right next door to the Russian Division, so in
addition to things on Japan, he also had information on what they
were doing about Russian activities.
Mr, MuNDT, Is he a Communist ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you collect dues from him ?
Miss Bentley. Yes; his wife also worked for the OSS, for about
6 months, in the Publicity Division, the division where they used to
23ut together these films to show to the General Staff.
Mr. MuNDT. She also was a Communist?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Mundt. Who else ?
Miss Bentley. Maurice Halperin. He was head of the Latin-
American Division. He was head of the Latin-American Division
Research and Analysis Branch of the OSS.
Mr. MuNUT. Was he a Communist?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Mundt. Did you collect dues from him ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Mundt. What kind of information would he give you?
Miss Bentley. Well, in addition to all the information which the
OSS was getting on Latin America, he had access to the cables which
the OSS was getting in from its agents abroad, world-wide informa-
tion of various sorts, and also the OSS had an agreement with the
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 531
State Department whereby he also coukl see State Department cables
on vital issues.
Mv. MuNDT. How did j'ou- establish your first contact with Mr.
Halperin?
INliss Benti.ey. Well, Mr. Halperin got stranded in Washington
without a contact, and he was a friend of Willard Park, who has not
yet been mentioned, and the two of them got together and got in con-
tact with Bruce Minton, whose real name is Richard Bransten, and
asked him what to do, and he came to New York, and saw Mr. Golos,
and arrangements w^ere made for me to go to Mr. Park's house and
meet the two of them.
Mr. JNIuNDT. Bruce INIinton made that arrangement?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Who is Bruce Minton ?
Miss Bektley. I don't know what he is right now, but at that time
he was writing for the New Masses.
Mr. JMcDowELL. He was one of the editors of the New Masses.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, in connection with Willard Z. Park,
our investigation shows that he resides at 36 Poplar Avenue, Takoma
Park, Md. He was employed at the time in the office of the Co-
ordinator of Inter-American Affairs, and a cousin of Richard Brans-
ten, alias Bruce Minton, formerly editor of the New Masses.
On January 2, 1944, Louise Bransten vv-as a gTiest at his home; he
was also active in the American Peace ^Mobilization in 1940, which or-
ganization, as you recall, was picketing the White House.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you also make a contact with Mr. Park?
INIiss Bentley. Yes, I did, but he did not last too long. He was
in the CIAA, that Nelson Rockfeller outfit, and he was not a Com-
munist Party member. He was what we called a sympathizer, and
was not too ready to help, and he was rather temperamental, and his
information was not too valuable, besides which we had two other
people in the same office, so we did not carry on wdtli him very lono-.
Mr. MuNDT. Who were the other two people ?
Miss Benixey. One was Robert Miller, who was the head of the
Research Division of the CIAA, and the other was Joseph Gregg, who
Avas one of his assistants.
Mr. MuNDT. Was Mr. Miller a Communist ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you collect dues from him ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. jNIundt. How did you spell Gregg ?
Miss Bentley. G-r-e-g-g.
Mr. MuNDT. Was he also a Communist?
Miss Bentley. Oh, yes; he had fought in the Spanish civil war.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you collect dues from him ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Mundt. How much dues would these fellows pay ?
Miss Bentley. That depended entirely on their income, and on
the Communist Party scale of dues at that time. Both of them
changed considerably.
Mr. Mundt. In general terms, what was the donation, small or
large, that they made?
532 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Miss Bentley. Well, they had a sliding scale, going up to about
$5,000 a year, and after that they imposed a surtax of about 20 per-
cent, I think it was.
Mr. MuNDT. That is an excess-profits tax? [Laughter.]
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. McDowell. What would be Silvermaster's payment on $10,000 ?
Miss Bentley. I don't know. He was paying quite a bit, and he
was paying certainly over $5 a month. He figured out the whole
amount of dues, and collected the dues from his interior group, and
we left it up to him to be sure that it came out right, but he was our
heaviest contributor to our fund.
Mr. Kankin. What was the name of Gregg?
Miss Bentley. Mr. Joseph Gregg.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know his wife Ruth ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, at this point I would like to intro-
duce— have you completed naming the outside members?
Miss Bentley. Not quite.
Mr. Stripling. Are there any others that you have there?
Miss Bentley. Yes; Bernard Redmont.
Mr. Stripling. If you have a list there, you may refer to it if j^ou
want to refresh yourself on it.
Miss Bentley. I was trying to, it is too hard to remember all. Ber-
nard Redmont, who worked for the CIA A, but the information he
gave me I would not classify as b?ing secret, because he was in the
pi'ess division, and I don't believe tliey had anything that was secret.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, we also have certain information
here regarding Mr. Remington, but the committee of the Ser.ate under
Senator Ferguson is holding hearings on that matter, and so, if the
Chair desires, we will not go into that at this time.
The Chairman. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Mr, Stripling. Are there any other names?
Miss Bentley. I don't believe so. I think that just al)Out com-
pletes the list of Government employees.
Mr. MuNDT. I would like to ask a question.
The Chairman. Before you read anything, I just would like to sug-
gest to the members of the committee that we go on in chronological
order, and that we let the chief investigator ask as many questions
as he has there, and after that bring in any other questions we may
have, but if you have got something special here, why, go ahead.
ISIr. MuNDT. This deals with the employment record of Maurice
Halperin, which I think we should have in the file, r* roni 11)41 to 1946,
during that period, he was Division Chief in the Office of Strategic
Services, and also in the Department of State, in charge of Latin
American research and analysis. I think that you told us that much.
Also tliat he maintained under him an active direction of 50 staff
members — specialists, including political scientists, economists, geog-
ra])hers, historians, and anthrojjologists; research })]anning and super-
vision of over GOO reports dealing with basic jioliticai, economic,
geographic, and militaiy problems and conditions in all I>atin-Amer-
ican countries.
He has a loiig list of employment with the Government, Mr. Chair-
man, and I think it should be placed in the record.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE . 533
The C'JiAiRMAN. Without objection, so ordered.
(The data on Maurice Halperin is as follows:)
:»lAUi:lCE IIALPEKIN
Office : Room 1401. 521 Fifth Avenue, New York 17, N. Y. Telephone MU 2-7197.
Home: 438 Crown Street, Brooklyn 25, N. Y. Telephone: SL G-9U58.
Personal:
Born in Boston, Mass., 1906. A. B., Harvard, 1927; A. M., University of
Oklalioma, 1929. Doctorate, Sorbonne (Paris), 1931, major: Letters; minor:
International relations, economics.
Family: Wife, 2 children (age 11 and 16).
Employment
University teaching (1927-41) : American lecturer, Sorbone (Paris), 1930-31
(North American Civilization), instructor, assistant and associate professor of
Romance languages; University of Oklahoma (specialization: Latin American
civilizatioii. modern French literature and civilization) ; visiting professor. Uni-
versity of Florida, summer, 1941 (resigned before assuming post to enter Govern-
ment war service).
War service (1941-46) : Division Chief in Office of Strategic Services (Septem-
ber 1941-October 1945) and in Department of State (October 1945-June 194G), in
charge of Latin-American research and analysis.
Maintained active direction of staff of 50 regional and functional specialists,
including political scientists, economists, geographers, historians, and anthro-
pologists; research planning and supervision of over 600 reports (approximately
75 of major scope) dealing with basic political, economic, geographic, and military
problems and conditions in all Latin-American countries.
Chairman of special joint Army-Navy-OSS intelligence project, under direc-
tion of Joint Chiefs of Staff. Addressed plenary session of Inter-American
Defense Board ; lectured at Military Government School, University of Virginia ;
served on several interagency committees. Participated in United Nations Con-
ference on International Organization, San Francisco, April-]\Iay 1945. •
Consultant to the Economic and Social Council of the United Nations repre-
senting the Coordinating Board of Jev.'ish Organizations (American Jewish Con-
ference. Board of Deputies of British Jews, South African Jewish Board of
Deputies).
Concurrently secretary of the coordinating board ; foreign relations specialist,
American Jewish Conference.
As United Nations consultant, attends sessions of major United Nations bodies ;
maintains liaison with the delegations of the member states and with officers of
United Nations Secretariat.
Prepares and submits memoranda on human rights, genocide, status of
refugef^s, and related matters to various United Nations bodies and specialized
agencies such as IRO and UNESCO.
Presented oral statements on proposed international group libel statute at
second session of the Subcommission on Freedom of Information and the Press,
Lake Success, January 21 and January 28, 1948.
Initiated with the Department of Public Information, and assisted in organ-
izing the first United Nations broadcasting service in the Hebrew language,
beamed to Palestine.
As secretary of the Coordinating Board of JewLsh Organizations, organized
New York secretariat, negotiated with United Nations for consultative status,
under provisions of article 71 of the United Nations Charter ; maintains secre-
tariat of the board and liaison with its American, British, and South African
affiliates.
As foreign-relations specialist of the American Jewish Conference, advises
on drafting of submissions to governments in matters relating to the peace
treaties, restitution of and indenmification for loss of life and property in German-
dominated Europe, the Palestine question, etc.
Maintains liaiscm with Department of State, including direct contact with
Seeretai'y of State and chief officers of the American delegation to the United
Nations. Represents conference at meetings of American voluntary organiza-
tions, including Citizens Committee on Displaced Persons, American Association
for the United Nations, Common Council for American Unity, etc.
534 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. Now, go ahead, Mr. Stripling, and keep going.
Miss Bentley. Excuse me, Mr. Stripling, there was one more that
I forgot about, Michael Greenberg.
Mr. Stripling. Michael Greenberg. Where was he employed ?
Miss Bentley. He was working for Mr. Currie, and whatever Mr.
Currie
Mr. Stripling. Lauchlin Currie ?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; he was a specialist on China.
Mr. MuNDT. Was he a Communist?
Miss Bentley. He was not a member of the party here because he
was an Englishman, English born, and subsequently, I believe, became
an American citizen. But at that time the Communist Party would
not accept aliens — for what reason, I do not know — and, therefore,
although he had been a member in England, I understand he was
not a member of the American [Communist] party at that time.
Mr. MuNDT. They would not accept aliens. Of course, those aliens
could not become American citizens under our statutes, and for that
reason they did not and do not take them as members.
Miss Bentley. That is right.
Mr. Rankin. AVhat is his name ?
Miss Bentley. Michael Greenberg.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask a question or two.
In the first place, I don't think we ought to skip this fellow Reming-
ton. We have long- since depended on the other body — too long now —
to make these investigations. This committee has had to do such
investigating, and I am in favor of going on through with it.
The Chairman. Mr. Rankin, I assure you that Mr. Remington will
not be skipped.
Mr. Rankin. I do not think we ought to skip him today. Another
committee called for information on people in his category, and gave
information on every one of them except this man Remington. He
is on the Federal pay roll, and I understand he is on the pay roll, and
if he is a Communist, I think we ought show it up.
The Chairman. How long will it take you to take up Remington ?
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, as you know, we issued a subpena
for Mr. Remington for July 8, but since the committee of the Senate
is investigating, I think we should examine their record before we
proceed with what we have here.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Chairman, I think our chief investigator is abso-
lutely right. As long as a committee of the Senate is dealing with this
matter, there is no reason for us to intrude ourselves in that particular
case and we should let them go ahead and dispose of it.
The Chairman. Well, I agree with that, but there is one very special
reason why I agree with Mr. Rankin. Mr. Remington lived in my
congressional district, and I don't want anybody to think that for one
moment we are not taking up Mr. Remington because he lives in the
town next to mine. In fact, if I had my way, we would start off with
Mr. Reminiiton.
Now, how do you feel about it ?
Do you want to take up Mr. Remington now ?
Mr. Rankin. I want to say this: When Senator Bilbo was dying
of cancer, standing on his feet, wearing his life away fighting this
so-called "civil rights," this Communist progi'am, this element trumped
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 535
up a persecution over there because of his fight against this commu-
nistic movement, and some of the names that have been mentioned here
today vrere mixed up in it.
Now, the Senate, the majority of the Members of the Senate, at that
time participated in that lynching of Senator Bilbo, and I am not
willing to turn over to a Senate committee the prerogatives of this
committee to investigate people on the Federal pay roll who are known
to be Communists and plotting the overthrow of this Government. If
this man Remington is a Communist, I think we ought to bring the
facts out here. Communists picketed Senator Bilbo's residence, within
2 blocks of the Senate Office Building, for months and months and
months, and nothing was done about it. I am not willing at this time
to abdicate our prerogatives and pass them on to a committee that
has waited all these years and let the Dies committee and this Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities do the investigating. I think this
man Eemington should be investigated now. and I want to see it done.
The Chairmax. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chairman, I think we are aware of the fact that
the Senate committee is investigating Mr. Remington and his con-
nection with this group at the present time, and in view of the fact
that they are conducting that investigation, I think that in the interest
of getting as much information as we can on matters that are not under
investigation that it would serve our purposes best to go ahead with
other items and other individuals, rather than Mr. Remington, and
then come back to him in the event that we have additional informa-
tion that is not brought out in the Senate investigation.
There are certainly no members of this committee who want to
leave any stone unturned in regard to Mr. Remington or any other
individual, but I do think, in the interest of getting as much done as
possible in the time that we have, that it would be a duplication ; so
I would suggest that the Chair rule, if possible, that we should go
ahead now with other individuals, other than Mr. Remington.
The Chairman. Let me ask this question of the chief investigator.
Is Mr. Remington under subpena now?
Mr. Stripling. No, sir.
The Chairman. Then, I want a subpena issued for Mv. Remington.
How many witnesses are there under subpena here ?
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Sil verm aster is under subpena, Mr. Kramer is
under subpena, Mr. Magdoif is under subpena, and there are several
subpenas which have already been issued, but we have not been able
to serve them.
The Chairman. All those who have been issued, have them served
just as promptly as possible, and I will sign subpenas for all the other
names of the persons that were mentioned here today, who have not
already been served, or who we have not subpenaed, or have not sub-
penas made out for them, and we will have them all in, and they can
all be heard, and we will have one right after another in a public
hearing.
Now, as far as Remington goes, the Chair regrets to have to rule that
while the present situation exists we will not take up the Remington
case right at this time.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Chairman, in connection with your ruling, may I
suggest that the Remington employment file be inserted right here the
53G COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
same as all these other people — I mean the same as all these other
people named.
The Chairman. That is so ordered.
(The employment record referred to is as follows :)
WILLIAM WALTER REMINGTON
This individual was born October 25, 1917, in New York City. He graduated'
from tlie Ridgewood, N. J., liigh scliool in 1934. He received an A. B. degree
from Dartmouth College in 1939 and in 1940 he received an M. A. degree from
Columbia University. Remington's parents, Frederick Clement Remington and
Lillian Sutherland, were born in Ridgewood, N. J.
From September 1936 until April 1937, Remington was employed by the TVA
at Knoxville, Tenn.
From April 1937 until August 1937, Remington was associated with the Workers'
Education Committee in Knoxville, Tenn.
From May 1940 until June 1941, Remington was employed by the Natural
Resources Planning Board in Washington, D. C.
From July 1941 through January 1942, Remington was employed by the OP A.
From February 1942 until April 1944. Reniluglion was employed by the WPB.
From April 1944 until January 1945, Remington was in the Navy school at
Boulder, Colo., from which institution he received a commission as ensign.
From February 1945 until June 1945, Remington was attached to the United
States Navy in Washington, D. C, as a Russian translator.
From July 1945 until November 1945, Remington was employed in the Ameri-
can Embassy in London, England, by the Economic Affairs Mission.
From December 1945, Remington was employed by the Office of War Mobiliza-
tion and Reconversion.
Subsequently, Remington was employed by the Economic Affairs Committee
executive office of the President and by the Department of Commerce.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, in connection with the people who
have been mentioned, who have been named by this witness as being
involved in this espionage ring, I should like to point out that we had
Nathan Gregory Silvermaster before a special subconnnittee of this
committee on May 25 of this year. Now, Mr. Silvermaster had been
called before the New York grand jury and, I believe, you, Miss Bent-
lev, were also a witness before the New York grancl jurv; were you
not?
Miss Bentlet. Yes ; that is correct.
Mr. StriplinCx. I would like to read into the record at this point,
Mr. Chairman, the testimony of Mr. Silvermaster, and call your atten-
tion to the answers that he gives when we asked him if he knows certain
people. I will read from Mr. Silvermaster's testimony.
Mr. Hebert. May I, before Mr. Stripling does that, and for the sake
of orderly procedure, inquire if you do not think that these parts of
the testimony that a man has given before — that he should be con-
fronted with that testimony in open hearing ?
Mr. Striixing. As a witness?
Mr. Hebert. As a witness.
Mr. Stripling. This is testimony before our committee that I am
reading.
Mr. Hebert. I recognize that. But if you go into what Mr. Silver-
master testified in executive session here, would that have any bear-
ing on what the witness testified about Silvermaster ?
Mr. Stripling. That ties right in.
Mr. Hebert. I am sure Mr. Stripling knows what I have in mind,
and I want to avoid that. I want to avoid that if that is going to be
brought into it.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 537
Mr. STRirLiNG. I am not going to ask the witness any questions
based on what I shall read.
Mr. McDow^ELL. You are not going to read all the testimony.
Mr. Stripling. No.
Mr. Kankin. Mr. Chairman, right on that point, we are not sup-
posed to bring all these men who are charged with treason or con-
spiring to overthrow this Government before this committee. This is
a form of grand jury by a committee of the House of Representatives.
No grand jury ever calls a defendant. You have not had a single
Communist, with the exception of a, little group consisting of William
Z. Foster and Ben Davis, that crowd, to admit before the committee
that they were Communists, but, as a rule, they have refused to testify.
Now, we don't have to bring them in here. If this witness has in-
formation that this man Remington or these other men are Commu-
nists, we have a right to ask those questions now.
The Chairman. Just a minute. We want to hear these people;
we have got some new names today and consequently we want to have
them in as witnesses, just as we have had Silvermaster and these others
in executive sesssion. We might as well, now that it has gotten this
far in the open — we might as well have the whole thing in the open.
Mr. Hebert. I want to make this observation. I want to disagree
with my colleague from Mississippi that this is a grand-jury inves-
tigation. If anybody puts in jeopardy an individual who is charged
with being a Communist, I think, in fairness, that this individual
should be allowed his day in court here in public hearing as well.
Now, if you were in a secret session or in executive session, and these
names were used, then we owe them no obligation, but the minute
that we allow a witness on the stand to mention any individual, that
individual has a right to come before this committee and have his day
in court, and every man or woman mentioned here this morning has
a right to be subpenaed to come here.
The Chairman. Mr. Hebert, I will promise you that they will have
_ their day in court.
Mr. Rankin. Nobody has asked to come here.
The Chairman. They will have their day in court.
Mr. Rankin. It certainly is putting the cart before the horse when
you have the witness before you who has the testimony.
The Chairman. Now, what about this man Silvermaster? What
do you want to read from the record ?
]Mr. Stripling. I want to read certain excerpts of his testimony
in the record at this time.
The Chairman. You know what part Mr. Hebert does not want?
Mr. Hebert. I am fully aware of that.
Mr. McDowell. Before we go into that, I am in agreement with the
position taken by Mr. Mundt and Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Stripling. As I say, Mr. Chairman, Silvermaster testified on
May 25, 1948- before a subcommittee of this committee. He was asked
this question :
Ml'. Stripling. Are you a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Silvermaster replied :
I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Stripling. Are you a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question, sir, on the grounds stated
previously.
538 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The grounds stated previously, Mr. Chairman, are :
I refuse to answer the question on the grounds that I might incriminate myself.
The testimony continues :
Do you know Victor Perlo?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I ret'usc to answer this question on the same grounds.
Mr. Russell asked him ?
Do you know Harry MagdofE?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I refuso to answer this question, sir, on the same grounds.
Mr. Russell. William Walter Remington?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I rcfusc to answer this question on the same grounds, sir.
Mr. Russell. Joseph Gregg?
IMr. SiLVERMASTER. I rcfuse to answer the question, same grounds.
Ml-. Russell. Ruth Gregg?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I rcfuse to answer.
Mr. Russell. John Abt?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I rcfuse to answer, sir.
Mr. Russell. Charles Kramer?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I rcfusc to answer, sir.
Mr. Russell. Edward J. Fitzgerald?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I rcfusc to answer the question.
Mv. Russell. Louise Bransten?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I rcfusc to answer this question on the same grounds, sir.
Mr. Russell. Donald Niven Wheeler?
• Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. RussELL. Harry Dexter White?
Mr. SiL\'ERMASTER. I refusc to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Russell. Maurice Halperin?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I have to refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Russell, still questioning the witness, asked :
What was your address when you resided in Washington, D. C?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. 5-515 Thirtieth Street.
Mr. Russell. Have any of the persons whom I have named ever visited you
at that address?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I refuse to answer this question on the same grounds, sir.
I should now like to read into the record the testimony of Mr. Charles
Kramer, who testified before this committee on July 2, 1948, in execu-,
tive session,
]\lr. Nixon. One moment there. Do I understand that the witness
refused to answer questions concerning the various people that you
named in this testimony on the grounds that he might incriminate
himself ?
Mr, Stripling. He refused to say whether or not he knew these par-
ticular people, most of whom this witness has named and involved in
this espionage ring, on the ground that he might incriminate himself,
and he was supposed to be the head, according to her testimony — the
head of this group in Washington.
Mr. Kramer testified that he also appeared before the grand jury in
New York. He was asked by Mr. Russell :
Were you acquainted at any time during your life with an individual named
Harold Ware, who is now deceased?
Mr. Kramer. That is a question that was put to me before the grand jury, and
I made the answer then, I make the answer now, that I must decline to answer
, on the grounds that this might be self-incriminating.
Mr. Russell asked the witness :
Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party of the
United States?
Mr. Kramer. The same answer on the same grounds to that question.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 539
Mr. RrssELL. Mr. Kramer, did you ever confer with Harold Ware regarding
the formation of Communi.st cells in Government agencies in the District of
ColumhiaV
Mr. Kramer. The same answer to that question.
Mr. Russell. Are you acquainted with Kuth Gregg?
Mr. Kra:mer. No.
Mr. Russell. Are you acquainted with Daniel Melcher?
JMr. Kramer. No.
Mr. Russell. Are you acquainted with Nathan Gregory Silvermaster?
Mr. Kramer. Tlie .same answer to that question.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever visited Nathan Gregory Silvermaster?
Mr. Kramer. The same answer.
Mr. Russell. Did you ever request him to reproduce any documents for you
through means of certain photographic equipment which Mr. Silvermaster had
in his possession?
Mr. Kramer. The same answer to that question.
He was then asked. Mr. Chairman, was he acquainted with or did
he know certain individuals, to which he answered the question if he
did or did not know. I see no point in bringing their names into this
particular hearing.
But later he was asked whether or not he knew certain people whom
the witness has named here today, and he refused to answer on the
grounds of self-incrimination.
Miss Bentley, do you know James Roy Newman ?
Miss Bentley. No.
Mr. Rankix. Mr. Chairman, while Mr. Stripling is conferring, I
would like to ask the witness a question about this man Currie.
oNIiss Bextley. Yes.
Mr. Rankix. Lauchlin Currie was one of the names in the Congres-
sional Directory for 1943, and it shows that he was one of the adminis-
trative assistants in the White House. Is that the man you are talking
about 'i
Miss Bentley. That is right ; that is the man.
Mr. Raxkix. Another administrative assistant was William H.
McReynolds; others were Lowell Mellett and David K. Niles. They
all seemed to hold a coordinate position.
Do you know anj'thing about the records of these other men ?
Miss Bextley. No ; I am sorry ; only what I have read in the news-
papers or magazines.
Mr. Mt'XDT. Mr. Chairman, I would like to make an observation.
The Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
Mr. MuxDT. I think it would be interesting for a matter of record
for you to tell us the actual steps you took by which you changed from
being simply a member of the Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee
and became an actual Communist. You said that a lady, and a former
professor at Columbia University under whom I am ashamed to say
I once studied as a student at Columbia, introduced 3'ou to communism.
Miss Bextley. Yes.
Mr. MuxDT. What were the overt steps you took by which you be-
came a Communist ?
Miss Bentley. I am afraid that is an awfully difficult question to
ansAver. Tliinking back on it, it is rather hard to remember my state
of mind at that particular moment. As I said, I was quite infuriated
with what I liad learned about fascism in Italy, and the only people
who would listen to me were the people in the American League
Against War and Fascism, and, as I said, I gradually got into that, and
540 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
gTadually there I met Communists, both in Columbia and downtown,
and gradually my ideas began to change. I suppose, in a vray, I was
a very confused liberal, and, unfortunately, we confused liberals have
a tendency to look for guidance some place and a tendency to admire
efficient people who know where they are going and seem to be doing
a good job in the right direction,
Mr. MuNDT. Did you finally take an oath of allegiance or sign a
document, or something of that kind ?
Miss Bentley. No ; I did not.
Mr. MuNDT. You simply started paying your dues ?
Miss Bentley. I simply started paying dues ; yes.
Mr. IMuNDT. To the Communist Party?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; that is correct.
Mr. MuNDT. I don't think you told us this morning, either, how you
established your first contact with Mr. Silvermaster. When you came
down here as a courier, how^ did you establish your first contact ?
Miss Bentley. Mr. Silvermaster came to New York to see Mr. Golos
at the behest of Earl Browder, and after Mr. Golos had had a prelimi-
nary meeting with Mr. Silvermaster, he came back to me and said that
Mr. Silvermaster was remaining 2 or 3 days, and that arrangements
had been made for me to go to Washington — to go directly to the
Silvermaster house and make the acquaintance of Mrs. Helen Silver-
master so that they would know who I was and realize that I was the
person who was going to make the contacts in the future, and then
later on
Mr. MuNDT. What did you tell her at that time to identify yourself
as the specific person who was to get the information ?
Miss Bentley. I was told to say I was Helen and I was to tell her
that her husband had arranged for me to come down. I v/ent to her
house, made her acquaintance, and we talked about various things,
and it was arranged that I would come down every week and visit
them.
Mr. IMuNDT. I have one other question. Miss Bentley. I think — I
take it you are no longer a Communist ?
Miss Bentley. No.
Mr. MuNDT. When did you quit the party, and why ?
Miss Bentley. I actually stopped paying dues to the party in July
of 1944, but it took me about a year to more or less get it out of my
system and get to the point where I could get in the frame of mind
of going to the authorities about it. As to' why: Having worked
with Mr. Golos, whom I took to be a great idealist, a man who was
working for what I considered to be the betterment of the world, I
had been terrifically shielded from the realities behind this thing,
and when he died I was thrown in direct contact with Kussians who
had just come over from Eussia — at least as I understand it.
They thought that I was much more sophisticated than I was.
They thought that I knew what was going on, and unfortunately
they landed on me with both feet, made no bones of the fact that they
had contempt for American Communists with their vague idealism,
no bones of the fact that they were using the American Communist
Party as a recruitment for espionage, and, in general, they were about
the cheapest type of person I have ever seen — the gangster type.
Added to which I had never known anyone high up in the American
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 541
party before. But at Mr. Golos' death, I was thrown in contact with
BroM'der. Up to then, I had greatly admired Browder. I was like a
lot of people in the American Communist Party, revered him as a
wonderful leader and all, and it was quite a shock to find that when
I went to him for help, because I did not like this set-up, and I began
to realize what it was, and I wanted his help in getting the people
that I was taking care of out of it, he hemmed and hawed, and rather
pretended to take my side, I think, probably to protect himself. I
think he did not like getting mixed up in espionage, and finally
Moscow pulled the strings, and he just fell out from underneath me
and told me that there was nothing that he could do. He made it
painfully obvious just what was going on.
JNIr. MuNDT. Shortly after that it was that you quit paying the
dues ?
Miss Bentley. I immediately quit paying my dues. Then came
the period of wanting to know what to do about it. Then came the
period in trying to see if I could get any of these people out without
endangering m.yself. There came the period of trying to see what
could be done there, and then I finally realized that I was one person
fighting a vast machine. There was nothing I could do. I could
eitlier walk out and forget it had happened, or I could go to the
agency that was handling counterespionaire, the FBI, and it took me
quite a while to make the decision, and I finally walked in there.
Mr. MuxDT. You went to the FBI, then, about 1945 ?
Miss Bentley. August 1945 ; yes.
Mr. MuxDT. With this information?
Miss Bextley. Yes.
Mr. MuxDT. What were you doing during the year after you quit —
during that interim?
Miss Bextley. I continued with the Russians until I had handed
over the contact or else had taken — in other words, had settled up
the contact. Either I had told the Russians they were no good, and
there Avas no use continuing or had turned them over, but I was still
in contact witli the Russians. They wanted to put me on ice for 6
months or a year. They said that Golos had conducted his activities
so badly that there were leaks here and there, and that I was in
dangerous position, so would I kindly go out of circulation as far
as those activities were concerned for 6 months or a year. Then,
they proposed to set me up in another little organization, either in
a travel business or what not, in some large town, and they would give
me other Government contacts to take over.
Mr. Mundt. Who do you mean "they" ?
Miss Bextley. The Russians.
Mr. Mundt. Can you name those Russians ?
Miss Bextley. The only Russian whose real name I know was the
first secretary of the Russian Embassy, and I did ^ot know that until
much later on after I had ceased seeing him.
Mr. MuxDT. He talked with you personally in trying to induce
you to continue this espionage?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; because after they had tried to bribe me, and
had tried all sorts of tricks on me, they finally brought in their highest
man to see what he could do.
Mr. Mundt. What was this man's name?
Miss Bentley. Anatol Gromov.
542 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. MuNDT. Where would lie contact you ?
Miss Bentley. Well, about half the time I saw him in Washing-'
ton, the other half of the time he came to New York.
Mr. MuNDT. Would you see him in the Russian Embassy here ?
Miss Bentley. No.
Mr. MuNDT. Where would you see him ?
Miss Bentley. In inconspicuous places. I met him at Herzog's,
down on the waterfront here.
Mr. McDowell. That is a restaurant ; is it not ?
Miss Bentley. Yes. I met him in a drug store on M Street and
Wisconsin in Georgetown. I met him in a movie house on Broadway
at about Broadway and One Hundred and Third Street — various spots.
Mr. MuNDT. What have you been doing since 1945 ?
Have you been employed since, during the period of the last 3
years ?
Miss Bentley. I was asked to continue on with tlie U. S. Service
and Shipping Corp., because it was feared that that possibly might
be a danger spot, a covering-up agency, and I was asked to continue
on in there until either something happened or the business broke
its contract and liquidated itself, which it proceeded to do in Feb-
1 uary of 1946.
Mr. MuNDT. Were you asked by the FBI ?
Miss Bentley. 1947. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. And from 1946 on, what have you been doing?
Miss Bentley. I am sorry ; 1947.
Mr. MuNDT. Have you had any employment since then ?
Miss Bentley. No; I walked out of the whole thing and, of course,
could not use any business contacts I had made, so I went into an
employment agency and got myself a position as a secretary.
Mr. Mundt. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDowell. I have only one or two questions.
You feel that the American Communists have been made suckers
of by the Russians ?
Miss Bentley. With the exception of that small group of people
who actually run the American Party, I would say that the vast
majority of the rank-and-file people in the Communist Party are;
yes.
Mr. McDowell. Suckers?
Miss Bentley. Right.
Mr. McDowell. Don't you think, perhaps, that some Of America's
leading Communists are leading the Communist cause because it pays
them to do that? They get pietty good salaries. I noticed you re-
ferred awhile ago to Earl Browder going to a sunnner home. These
people are proletariat and are not supposed to have summer homes.
Miss Bentley. Well, he also had a car with a private chauffeur.
Mr. McDowell. Struggling for the working class.
Miss Bentley. That is right. I think it is partly that money; I
think for a lot of them — and I think it applies particularly to Brow-
der— they have a particular lust for jiower. I mean they are show-
offs; they love to feel that sense of power that they have.
Mr. McDowell. I hope all the foggy-minded liberals in America
who are i)laying with this thing read this evidence.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 543
I liave no further questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Rankin ^
Mr. Raxkin. What year did you say vou quit the Communist
Party ^
Miss Bentley. I stopped paying dues in July of 1944.
Mr. Rankin. You said that you did not get any satisfaction out
of Earl Browder at that time?
Miss Bentley. No.
Mr. Rankin. It was the next year, was it not, that you understand
that Duclos, the leader of the Comintern in Paris, wrote the letter
removing Earl Browder and putting William Z. Foster in his place?
Miss Bentley. Yes; I think that was in May of 1945. I am not
too sure of the date on it, but it was some time along in there. I think
he was actually deposed in July of 1945. I think the final session that
put him out was in July of 1945.
Mr. Rankin. I wonder if that had any bearing on his reluctance
to talk with you at that time ? Did he know that this change would
happen?
Miss Bentley. No; I don't believe so. because that was almost a
year previous to that. I rather doubt it.
jVIr. Rankin. You say that the majoiity of the Communists in this
country were born in foreign countries ?
Miss Bentley. No; I did not, because I have no way of knowing.
Mr. Rankin. Well, a great leader testified before this committee
the other day — a short time ago — Mr. Bullitt, that 60 percent of the
members of the Communist Party in this country were foreign born.
Would you say that that estimate is too large?
Miss Bentley. Frankly. Mr. Congressman, I do not know, because
I was not too closely connected with the top of the party that would
count tliose statistics. I do not actually know that.
Mr. Rankin. You knew the Communist Party was dedicated to the
destruction of this Government, did you not?
Miss Bentley. I did not at the time I was in it. That was one of
the reasons I got out.
Mr. Rankin. When you found that out, you quit. Yoti learned that
the Communist Party was plotting the overthrow of this Government?
Miss Bentley. I would say that was correct; yes.
Mr. Rankin. And that that was one of the chief planks — we will
say of the platform — or one of the chief elements in their program?
Miss Bentley. I don't know if it is in their open program, but it
certainly is in their basic secret program ; yes.
Mr. Rankin. I am not talking about the open program, because
we do not get that, you understand. Now, you knew also that it was
dedicated to the destruction of what they called the capitalistic sys-
tem— that is, the right to own private property ?
Miss Bentley. That would be correct, yes.
Mr. Rankin. You learned that in Russia they have taken over the
land and that private enterprise has been reduced and that the people
of Russia have been reduced to the status of slaves. You found that
out before you quit them ; is tliat true ?
Miss Bentley. I do not know that I exactly found it out; but judg-
ing by the Russians with whom I dealt, it would be extremely plausi-
ble ; yes.
544 ' COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr, Rankin. You know it now, do you not?
Miss Bentley, I certainly do.
Mr. Rankin. You know now that every Russian farmer is a slave
of some commissar?
Miss Bentley. That is right.
Mr. Rankin. He is told where he shall live, what kind of work he
shall do, and whether or not he shall move. That is correct, is it
not?
Miss Bentley, Yes
Mr. Rankin. In other words, it is nothing but a system of abject
slavery, dominated by a racial minority that has seized control, as
members of the Politburo ; is that correct ?
Miss Bentley, I am not clear about the racial minority,
Mr. Rankin, I am. Now, I do not know how far I am to go ; but
as a creative member of this committee, I want to ask you about this
man William W. Remington. You say he was a Communist?
The Chairman. That question is overruled. The committee has
decided that the Remington testimony will not be brought up at this
time, in deference to the Senate committee.
Mr, Rankin. The Chair has no right to block the investigation of
this man who is in this key position.
The Chairman, I am not blocking any investigations, and you
know how to overrule the Chair if you want to overrule the Chair,
and all you have to do is make a motion,
Mr. Rankin. I want to call attention to that man as being a director
of export program, of the staff of the Bureau of Foreign and Domestic
Commerce. If he is in this key position and is a Communist, belong-
ing to an organization dedicated to the overthrow of this Government,
it is the duty of this committee to investigate that.
The Chairman, Do not think for a moment that we have not inves-
tigated it. We have investigated this man Remington thoroughly.
The only thing that is embarrassing to me is that Remington comes
from my district.
Mr, Rankin, I was afraid of that.
The Chairman. Then we will bring out the Remington testimony
and bring it out right here, because we are not going to have a charge
against me about covering it up.
Mr. Rankin. Then I will bring out the Remin^on testimony.
Mr. McDowell. I object ; and I believe the majority of the mem-
bers object, in deference to a Senate committee.
The Chairman. I do not want Mr. Rankin or anybody else to make
any kind of a remark, or intimate that the reason that we are not
bringing out Remington is that because he comes from my congres-
sional district we are covei'ing him up.
Mr. Rankin. I did not say that.
The Chairman. Well, you came pretty close to saying that.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Chairman, I think that anybody who knows your
record in the Un-American Activities Committee is not going to assume
even such a charge, and I think your ruling is perfectly sound ; but to
make it emphatic, I move that it be the sense of this committee that
we do not discuss the Remington case — the Remington testimony —
at this time, by virtue of the fact that the Senate is presently engaged
in such investigation.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 545
Mr. McDowell. I second the motion.
Mr. Hebekt. I want to be heard on the motion. It was my under-
standing, wlien I suggested that the Remington employment file be
put in at this time, that the Remington matter would be treated in the
same way in which the names of every other person mentioned here
this morning would be treated, and that is still my understanding. If
it is the purpose of Mr. INIundt to move that this witness cannot be
asked concerning Remington, then, of course, I cannot support the
motion.
Mr. jMi^NDT. I said "at this time."
]Mr. Hebert. In other words, with all due deference to the Senate,
and the knowledge that they have Mr. Remington before them, I think
we have possession of this witness at this time; and if she has any
knowledge of Remington to submit, or John Brown, or Jones or
Smith, or anybody else, she should be permitted to answer questions
concerning that.
The CHAiRaiAN. Let me ask this question of the committee : When
will it be possible for the committee to sit and hear Remington as a
witness ?
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I will be glad any time after we get
through investigating to see whether or not Mr. Remington is a Com-
munist,'and if so, if he is still on the pay roll of the Federal Govern-
ment and in the key position where he can render great injury to the
American Government; then if he wants to come and testify, all
right. But I think, and I know, that I am not for digging a storm
cellar for Remington at this point.
The CHAiR:\rAN. I get word that Remington is informed by the
Senate committee that he will be recalled for testimony before that
committee on Monday. Is it agreeable to the committee members to
have Remington here on Tuesday ?
Mr. Rankin. I want to hear this witness before we hear Remington.
Mr. Hebert. The fact that Mr. Remington is to appear before us
does not have any bearing on the present situation, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Yes; it has. Not only Remington, but all these
other names that were mentioned are such that it is a question of
association. You will find that these people were not only asso-
ciating but they were associating with others that we have had men-
tioned— that this committee has mentioned from time to time; and
before we get through we will find that these others, and these people,
are all in the same category. They have all been active in espionage ;
and some of them about whom we are going to have the public hear-
ings were active unknowingly, we will say, or innocent, but they
have been active, and they have been guilty of association.
Mr. Hebert. I agree with that; but the point I make, Mr. Chair-
man, is that we cannot question Remington or probe into Remington's
activities as to what this witness knows of her association with Rem-
ington unless we have this witness place into the record at this point
what her association with Remington is.
The Chairman. All right ; we will recess for 10 minutes, and the
committee will go into executive session.
(Whereupon, the committee retired into executive session, after
which the following was had in open session :)
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
80408—48 4
546 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Kankin. Mr. Chairman, I was questioning the witness awhile
ago when the meeting broke up.
The Chairman. I believe, Mr. Kankin, there was a motion. Will
you repeat your motion, Mr. Mundt ?
Mr. Mundt. My motion was, Mr. Chairman, that the committee
do not go into the Remington case at this time because the Senate is
now exploring that case.
Mr. McDowell. I second the motion.
Mr. Rankin. I want to be heard on the motion.
The Chairman. You have heard the motion duly seconded. Is
there any discussion? Mr. Rankin.
Mr. Rankin. Yes; I want to be heard. The witness testifying has
information which she has presented to the committee which is very
alarming. I never saw her before, but the testimony that she is
giving here has been most astounding. She has information, I under-
stand, that this man Remington is a Communist. He is now in the
Bureau of Foreign- and Domestic Commerce, Director of the export
program staff. I don't know how many people he has under him.
All I want to do is to ask the witness some questions about this man
Remington's being a Communist, wdiat she knows about his being a
Communist, and to bring out the same facts with reference to him
that you have brought out with reference to this man Currie, who
used to be one of the assistants in the White House, and these other
individuals. I want to try to get that infornuition.
To try to block this investigation at this time, when this may be
the only opportunity that we may have to question this witness, is
certainly back-pedaling so far as the record of this committee is con-
cerned. Her testimony has shown an interlocking with the Commu-
nist International of people on the Federal pay roll. Some of them
are in key positions and evidently in sympathy with their program
to wreck this Government. To say that you are going to refuse to
investigate — in the vague hope that a Senate committee will do your
work for you — to me, that is pathetic.
During all the years that the Dies committee and this Committee on
Un-American Activities have been investigating and exposing these
Reds, this is the first time so far as I know that any investigation has
been made by a Senate committee, and so far as I am concerned, I am
going to vote against the motion. To try to close the lips of this wit-
]iess on this man Remington, and to ])revent the members of this com-
mittee from asking questions about him and his afliliation with the
Communist Party — if he is in the position that she has described these
other Communists, he is dangerous, I mean, if he has the same attitude
that they had, and then he is dangerous to the welfare of the Govern-
ment and ought to be removed.
I am not wnlling to abdicate my prerogatives to make these investi-
gations merely because the Senate committee proposes to make a simi-
lar investigation, seeing that they have gone on all these years without
taking such a step.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I am going to vote against the motion. I
only regret that all the othei- minority members are not here to join us.
The Chairman. Are there any other remarks?
Mr. Rankin. I am waiting for a ruling of the committee. If you
want to whitewash this man or dig him a storm cellar, I think it is an
outrage, and I will take it before the House at the proper time.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 547
The CiiAiKMAX. Does any other member desire to be heard?
Mr. McDowell. I desire to be lieard. With all due respect to the
gentleman from Mississippi, I think he has entirely misinterpreted
the motion and the desire behind the motion. There is no intent, so
far as I am concerned, or I doubt that the other members of the com-
mittee have any — there is no eifort at all to whitewash any person or
TO dig a storm cellar for any person. So far as I am concerned — and
I shall vote for the motion — this man is not a constituent of mine.
If he was, it would not make any difference. If he is a Communist,
I think he ouglit to be removed from the Government, but in defer-
ence to the operation now going on on the other side of the Capitol,
and in tlie other body, I feel that the best interest of good government
would be served by merely postponing for a day or two or a few hours,
if necessary, the investigation into the person whose name has been
under discussion.
I shall vote for the motion.
Mr. IIankix. Will the gentleman yield?
Mr. McDowell. Yes.
Mr. Rankiist. Does the gentleman propose that this witness who
has come down for this purpose, going to this committee, does he
propose to sunmion her back to answer the questions that she can
answer in o minutes now ?
Mr. INIcDowELL. Mr. Chairman, I feel, in view of the high impor-
tance of this witness, that she is liable to be available to this commit-
tee or any* other congressional committee for quite a long time, and
that calling her back would cause her to suffer no inconvenience or
hardship or be any lack of good proper government.
Mr. Rankin. It certainly would be a hardship on the committee
to have to come back for this one thing which can be settled in 3
minutes.
The Chairman. Is there anything more to be said on the motion ?
Mr. McDowell. Question, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. All those in favor of the motion will signify by
answering "aye" when their names are called.
Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Mi NOT. Aye.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDowell. Aye.
The Chairman. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Aye.
The Chairman. Mr. Rankin.
Mr. Rankin. No.
The Chairman. Mr. Hebert.
Mr. Hebert. No.
The Chairman. The vote is 3 to 2, and the motion is carried.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I think we should apologize to the
lady, then, for bringing her down here and wasting her time at this
time.
The Chairman. If it will make you feel any better, Mr. Rankin, I
would be very ])leased to express my regrets to the lady for not being
al>le to answer nil of the questions that you propounded here.
Mr. Rankin. You do not have to apologize to her. She can answer
it if you let her.
The Chairman. Do you have any more questions ?
548 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
_ Mr. Eankin. No; if I am g'oing to be dictated to as to wliat ques-
tions I shall ask about these Communists who are here trying to under-
mine the Government, I submit the committee might as well adjourn.
The Chairman. Mr. Rankin, you and I have served on this com-
mittee for a long time. We have had our disagreements, and we have
agreed on many things. You know, Mr. Rankin, well down deep
in your heart that this committee is not going to whitewash anybody
or anything, and you also know that this committee has done a very
big job — a very big job — and especially a big job in the last 2 years.
We have been unearthing your New Dealers for 2 years, and for 8
years before that.
Mr. Rankin. I know the Senate is busy now nagging the white
people of the South, and all of the FEPC, and all this communistic
bunk.
The Chairman. Have you any questions that you want to ask this
witness ?
Mr. Rankin. Not unless I am able to ask her the questions that I
want to.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Chairman, I would like to pursue further the
questions that Mr. Mundt propounded in connection with the wit-
ness' activities in joining the Communist Party.
Were you persuaded to join the Communist Party by members of
the party ?
Miss Bentlet. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. What arguments did they use with you in persuading
you to join? Let me interrupt you and tell you the reason for that
question. Tlie reason is this : I believe that the best method of pro-
cedure is that an ounce of prevention is wortli a pound of cure. Tliis
committee has been trying to find out what makes the Communists tick,
and why they are spreading, as they are spreading. It is my belief
that education — we know what appeals the Communists are making
to native-born Americans like yourself well able to combat the evil.
That is the reason I ask you the question: What persuaded you, a
native-born American, an American citizen, a highly educated Amer-
ican citizen, who should have known better, educated in the schools
that you were educated in, what persuaded you join up with the Com-
munists ?
Miss Bentlet. It is so long ago that I am trying very hard to
remember the arguments that they did put to me at that time. They
were the same arguments, I think, that they put to almost any liberal
who is dissatisfied with various conditions in this country which, of
course, exist, and there is no denying them.
Their final argument was, "If you feel like a liberal, and if you feel
that these conditions are bad, then you should ally yourself with the
group that will be strong and disciplined and intelligent and that
could really do something about these conditions.'"
As for whether it was American or not, they represented themselves
to be an American party.
Mr. Hebert. How did they propose to overcome — to impose their
system on the American people, without the overthrow of the American
form of government?
Miss Bentlet. That was not mentioned at all in those days, possibly
because that was during Earl Browder's regime, at which point you
will remember they did not come out in the open with any revolutionary
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 549
inogiani. We were told that the only solution was education, that
people must be taught, so that we would finally get a majority of
American people to vote that particular regime into power.
JMr. Hebijrt. You mentioned that you were very much exercised
about the growth of fascism?
Miss Bextley. Yes; I was.
Air. Hebert. What is your distinction between a dictatorship of
fascism and a dictatorship of communism?
Miss Ijextley. I see very little difference right now.
Mr. Hebert. Why did j-ou go to communism, when you now call it
fascism ?
Miss Bextley. Because that was not the way communism was repre-
sented to me.
Mr. Hebert. Then it was purely an idealistic appeal to you ?
Miss Bextley. That is right. I was told that the Communist Party
was a democratic party, that everyone was democratically elected from
the bottom up, from the smallest units to the section and the top.
Mr. Hebert. And these clandestine meetings, and secret maneuvers,
did they appeal to you as something democratic, something in the
open ?
]Miss Bextley. No ; but you must remember that I had lived a year
in Italy, under a Fascist government, where almost everyone sneaked
around corners and whispered in everybody else's ears.
Mr. Hebert. But you had lived long enough in America, and you
had been educated in American schools?
Miss Bex^tley. Yes ; that is correct.
Mr. Hebert. And that education had so little influence on you?
Miss Bextley. I knew so little about American Government, and I
was so very little schooled as to the American Government.
Mr. Hebert. You say 3'ou knew verj' little about the American
Government ?
Miss Bextley. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. Did they not have courses in Columbia ?
Miss Bextley. No ; they did not teach it.
Mr. Hebert. What was your elementary education?
Miss Bextley. The same as anybody else's, but I changed schools
so often due to the fact that my family moved, that I seemed to avoid
American history and civics courses.
Mr. Hebert. So you grew up as a typical J^oung woman, an Ameri-
can child in American schools, went to a very renowned institution,
Vassar. and went to another famous institution, Columbia, and
through all those years, you were never exposed, or put in contact with
what American history was, what America stands for, and what our
form of government was ?
Miss Bextley. No ; I never was.
Mr. Hebert. That is what I am trying to find out — where our fault
is in the system of education.
Miss Bextley. I think it is the fault that runs straight through it
because there are numerous people like myself who have been brought
up like myself, who have not the slightest comprehension of what
America is really like, nor what it means to live in a democratic coun-
try under a democratic system.
550 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Hebert. I tliink that is a great contribution which yon have
made there in that statement, and that is exactl}^ ^Yhat I am trying to
arrive at.
Now, let me ask you one other question. In this desire of yours to
live the idealistic life and bring a better world about, did it ever
appeal to you, with your intelligence, with your education, even
though not educated in the Ameiican form of government or the
democratic form of government, did it ever appeal to you that you
were doing something wrong Avhen you were meeting people and
handing them secret information during the war?
Miss Bentley. No; it did not.
Mr. Hebert. That never appealed to you?
Miss Bkxtley. Not until I discovered what sort of a thing I was
jnixed up in.
Mr. Hebert. How old were you when you started this maneuvering,
this espionage?
Miss Bentley. That was about 7 years ago.
Mr. Hebert. Well, you were above 21 — I will not ask yon for your
exact age — but I want to know whether or not you were a mature
individual.
Miss Bentley. I think you may be physically mature, but many
times you are not mentally matui'e.
Mr. Hebert. I do not think that Columbia or Vassar would like
that for their graduates to say that they were not mentally mature
after their graduation, do you?
Miss Bentley. It might be correct in a number of cases.
Mr. Hebert. And it never did come to you or dawn upon you that
you were going to these secret meetings, and this super-duper secret
stuff that you engaged in, that you were performing a disservice to
your Government ?
Miss Bentley. No; I w^as thoroughly sold on the conviction that
no matter what happened in my lifetime I was building a decent world
in the future.
Mr. Hebert. Even if it was betraying your own Government in
time of war?
Miss Bentley. I did not think it was betraying my own Govern-
ment.
Mr. Hebert. Wliat did you think these people wanted this infor-
mation for about our Air Force ? Did it not occur to you as a normal
individual, with more than normal education, that Russia was sup-
posedly our ally in this war, and they did not have to resort to these
means to get secret information ?
Miss Bentley. It never occurred to me that way because I think the
mistake you make when you look at communism is that you take it as
an intellectual process. It is not. It is almost a religion and it gets
you so strongly that you take orders blindly. You believe it blindly.
That accounts for the fact that no real Communist is religious, nor
has any religion.
Mr. Hebert. You say "you" take it. You do not mean to infer that
the members of this committee take it that way. We recognize it
for what it is, and that is what we are trying to combat. We do
believe it is a religion, and a godless religion.
Miss Bentley. That is correct, but in the process 3'our intellectual
faculties cease to function in a critical sense.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 551
Mr. PIebert. But would yoii say that these confused liberals, as you
describe them, lack the mentality to arrive at a logical conclusion?
Miss Bentley. No; I would say they have that mentality, but that
that mentality has been dulled by this emotional process.
Mr. Hebert. Who spurred tliis emotionalism on you? Was it this
man Golos?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. Was it that you were devoted to him so much that you
followed him blindly and were blind to everything else?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Hebert. So, then, it was an individual case of a personal devo-
tion that swayed you ?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; it was.
Mr. Hebert. And blinded you to your traitorous acts against your
own country?
jMiss Bentley. That is right.
Mr. Rankin. I do not want to see you get too far out on a limb on
this education proposition. But almost every high educational insti-
tution— every institution of higher learning in this country — ^lias a
Communist professor on its pay roll, and they are poisoning the minds
of the students of this Nation today, so I am not sure that it is purely
a question of education. I noticed that some of the smartest ones we
have seen, and some of those — this Professor Adler, whose name I
tried to bring out this morning — going around and preaching that we
must get rid of the United States.
Mr. Hebert. I am not getting out on a limb. I am nailing the limb
firmly to the tree.
Mr. Rankin. What I am trying to say is that we have a world of
Communist professors in our educational system, and they are poison-
ing the minds of the young students of this country.
Mr. Hebert, That is absolutely correct, and I want to find out where
this education starts. It is to our own indictment that in our elemen-
tary schools we do not take the child up and teach the child what
Americanism is, and when he otows up and gets to a school of higher
learning, such as Vassar or Columbia — and I think General Eisen-
hower has a big thing to do to clean that place up
Mr. Rankin. Do you see where the Communists have established a
scholarship there ?
Mr. Hebert. That is criminal. I think as Americans who are in-
terested in this, without any fanfare or fireworks or anything, to get
down to the meat of the coconut, I think it is incumbent upon us right
at this time as far as we can as individuals in our own individual
community, that we should start during the week end to take our
children from the time that they can speak to show them what Amer-
icanism is, and what it stands for, and I was vevy much interested to
find this out from this Avitness today, that she was so devoid of knowl-
edge as to what her country meant to her that she was ready to commit
acts of treason against her country in time of war. She says she did
it under the guise of devotion. I will take her word for that, but I
cannot conceive in my own mind of any witness or any individual or
any person with the educational background of this witness not know-
ing right from wrong.
Mr. Rankin. Not even Remington.
[Laughter.]
552 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The Chairmatst. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Miss Bentley, you have testified that you
Mr. Hebert. May I interruj^t one second to bring this to the atten-
tion of the committee, which I am sure the chairman will be inter-
ested in. That is this very fine pamphlet prepared by the chief in-
vestigator, which is the first of a series and which shows what I mean,
the 100 Questions of communism,^ which is being distributed to the
New Orleans public and parochial schools by the archbishop of New
Orleans, and the superintendent of public schools in New Orleans, so
that the children will immediately be cognizant of what communism is,
and they will know the evil forces at work. And I may say this, too,
in connection with our higher schools of learning : I am from Tulane,
and to my chagrin there are more Communists who infest that place
than Americans. There is one man named Franklin, in that connec-
tion, Mr. Mundt — one man named Franklin who taught the Comnnmist
line to the students of Tulane University, and who is now on leave
from that university on an appointment to the United Nations, and I
cannot find out who put him there,
Mr. Rankin. When you say the university, you mean the professors.
Mr. Hebert. The professors.
Mr. Nixon. Miss Bentley, you testified that among those with whom
you had some dealings during the period that you were working with
this ring was one Lauchlin Currie, who was in tlie White House, on the
White House staff, at that time, I believe?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Do I understand that you met Mr. Currie personally?
Miss Bentley, No ; I did not.
Mr. Nixon, What connection did you have with him ?
Miss Bentley. The information that he gave was generally given
to George Silverman who relayed that to Mr. Silvermaster or Mr. Ull-
mann or Mrs. Silvermaster, and I picked it up when I went to the
Silvermaster house,
Mr, Nixon. How did Silverman get it; did he get it directly from
Mr, Currie?
Miss Bentley, Yes; I understand that they went to Harvard to-
gether, and were great friends.
Mr, Nixon. Was Mr. Silverman connected with Mr. Currie the same
way ? Did they work in the same office ?
Miss Bentley. No; I do not believe so. Mr. Silverman was first
with the Railroad Retirement Board, and later with the Air Corps, so
I do not see how there could be a job connection,
Mr, Nixon, How did you know that Mr. Currie gave this informa-
tion to Mr. Silverman?
Miss Bentley, Because I was told that by Mr, Silvermaster and Mr.
Ullmann.
Mr. Nixon. I see. And the information that was received from Mr.
Currie via Mr. Silverman was taken by you and turned over to the
Russian agents?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon, That is correct. As to any specific information that was
obtained in this manner, is it my understanding that you testified that
^"100 Things You Should Know About Communism in the U. S. A.," pamphlet issued by
the Committee on Un-American Activities. June 1948.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 553
the information concerning the breaking of the Russian code was ob-
tained through Mr. Ciirrie?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
]\lr, Nixon. How do yon know that?
Miss Bentley. Well, Mr. Silverniaster told me that one day Mr.
Currie came dashing into Mr. Silverman's house, sort of out of breath,
and told him that the Americans were on the verge of breaking the
Soviet code. Mr. Silverman, of course, got immediately — in due
course, got in touch with Mr. Silvermaster.
Mr. Nixon. And Mr. Silvermaster conveyed that information to
you?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. NisoN. Was there any other information, specific information,
that you know of that was obtained through Mr. Currie?
ISIiss Bentley. Yes ; some of the information on our relations with
China — I mean whether this Government would support Chiang Kai-
shek, or the Eighth Eoute xlrmy people. His value also lay, as I said,
in helping Mr. Silvermaster into his job and easing him out of his job,
and so on. He was sort of a friend of court.
Mr. Nixon. He was a friend at court in seeing that the members of
the ring obtained positions in Government where they could be produc-
tive. As you indicated.
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Currie was the man who the .members of the ring
went to see in the event they were attempting to get a transfer to a
productive agency ?
Miss Bentley. He was one of the people ; yes.
INIr. Nixon. Where there others who assisted in that particular
thing?
Miss Bentley. I do not know who those other people were. They
were upper people. Mr. White, of course, helped get people into place*
and som.e of the others.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know whether Mr. Niles participated in that
activity or not ?
Miss Bentley. Not to my knowledge. I know next to nothing
about Mr. Niles.
Mr. Nixon. When you obtained this information, as you have in-
dicated you have from various people who were in the ring, who at that
time were employed in the Government in responsible positions, did
they know that you were going to take this information and turn it
over to the Soviet agents?
Miss Bentley. Some did; some did not.
Mr. Nixon. Well, now, those who did not know, why did they give
you the information % Why did they think they were giving to it you ?
For what purpose?
Miss Bentley. That is a question I do not know the answer to. I
know that both the Silvermasters and Ullmann knew exactly where
it was going. From what they said, Mr. White knew where it was
going but preferred not to mention the fact. They were undecided
as to whether Mr. Currie knew or not. but they suspected that he did.
Others of them, I am not sure about. Some of them may have thought
it was going to the Communist Party headquarters for use by Earl
Browder, or others may have guessed" the truth. It just was not dis-
cussed, and, therefore, I cannot give you the answer.
554 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixox. You mean that some of these people might liave given
this information for the purpose or what they thought was the purpose
of merely aiding the Communist Party in the United States ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct, yes ; that was esi)ecially true of the
individuals that I contacted, because they were told by Mr. Golos
that this information was for the personal use of Earl Browder in pre-
paring books and in preparing policies of the Communist Party.
Mr. Nixon. And then, as a matter of fact, once Mr. Browder ob-
tained the information, or once you obtained the information, how-
ever, it was turned over directly to the Soviet agents ?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; it was.
Mr. Nixon. So, we have a situation then where those who furnished
the information might not have been aware
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. Of the fact that it was going to a Soviet agent in every
case ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. At the time that these events were occurring, that you
were in this particular activity, the Russians at that time were allies of
the United States ; were they not ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct ; yes.
Mr. Nixon. Those people who clid know, as you testified some did
know, that this information was going
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. To the Soviet agents, as far as they were coricerned, did
they realize that by giving that information, making that information
available to the Russians, it was not in the best interests of the United
States?
Miss Bentley. I would say that their point of view was roughl}' the
fact that as Communists they were interested in Russia because Rus-
sia already had a Communist government. They wished for a Com-
munist government in this country. Therefore, they felt that it was
their duty to aid a country vshich had a Communist govermnent. They
also felt that Russia was bearing the brunt of the war — you remember,
the Germans drove straight through — that she was inadequately^ pre-
pared, and they told me that in the course of their dealings with the
American Government they felt that thei'e were elements in the Ameri-
can Government who were blocking aid in Russia at the time when they
felt it was absolutely necessary for her survival.
Mr. Nixon. Were they aware of the fact that by furnishing this in-
formation to Russia they were violating the laws of the United States?
Miss Bentley. I would think so, because I imagine most of them —
hadn't they signed affidavits or something when they took these secret
jobs that said 3'OU should not give out that information?
Mr. Nixon. In other words, as far as these people were concerned,
they were placing the interests, during the war — they were placing the
interests of the Soviet Government above that of their own Govern-
ment ?
Miss Bentley. I would say that was correct ; yes.
Mr. Nixon. And when they furnished this information, they knew
that they were doing something which was not in the best interests of
the Govermnent of the United States as it then existed, and as they
w^orked for it.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 555
Miss Bextley. I hardly know how to answer that, because they felt
they were acting in the best interests of the American Government ;
that is to say, the elements which they approved of.
]Mr. Nixon. I see.
Miss Bentley. But they felt that they were acting against the ele-
ments who were anti-Russian, so it is hard to break the thing down.
Mr. Nixon. They knew they were not acting in the best interests of
the non-Communist American Government?
Miss Bentley. That is correct ; yes.
IVIr. Nixon. And they would act in the best interests of the American
Government where they felt that that Government was serving com-
munistic purposes; isn't that the case?
Miss Bentley. That is correct; yes.
Mr. Nixon. And wherever the interests of this Government came
in conflict with the Communist Government, in effect, they would be
willing to do anything for the purpose of aiding Communist Govern-
ment where its interests conflicted with those of the non-Communist
American Government ?
Miss Bentley. I would imagine so, up to a point. It would de-
pend. I don't know how far these people would have gone.
Mr. Nixon. Well, certainly, they were willing to erigage in this type
of activity that you have indicated.
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. Of violating their oath of office, and obtaining secret
documents.
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. And seeing to it that it got into the hands of a foreign
government.
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. Miss Bentley, were you aware of the fact when you de-
cided to turn this information over to the Federal Bureau of Investi-
gation that you ran a considerable personal risk in doing so?
Miss Bentley. Yes: I was quite aware of it. I also realized that
there would be a considerable mud-slinging campaign from the left,
which was also unpleasant.
]\Ir. Nixon. Were you awai-e of the fact that in'addition to the mud
slinging you might run a risk greater than that?
Miss Bentley. Yes;T knew that.
Mr. Nixon. And you were willing to take that risk in doing so?
Miss Bentley. Certainly, because I felt that since I had been mixed
up in this thing it was my duty to unscramble it, so to speak.
Mr. Nixon. And that is the reason that you did turn this informa-
tion over to our investigative authorities?
Miss Bentley. That is correct ; yes.
Mr. Nixon. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman, but I would
like to say — well, I have just one other question.
How long have you been working with the investigative authorities
of our Government ?
Miss Bentley. Since I went in to see them.
Mr. Nixon. And when was that ?
Miss Bentley. The latter part of August 1945.
Mr. Nixon. In other worcls, the investigative authorities of this
country have been aware of this testimony that you have given to
us today since August of 1945?
556 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Miss Bentley. Well, possibly later, because there was so miicli of
it that had to be taken down and gone over, so I would set the final
date a bit further than that.
Mr. Nixon. About how much later?
Miss Bentley, I do not know exactly.
Mr. Nixon. Well, say 3 months?
Miss Bentley. Three or four months, yes, because all of it had to
be taken down in great detail and had to be gone into.
Mr. NixoN. Well, at least, by February of 194G, which would be
4 months :
Miss Bentley. I should think so.
Mr. Nixon (continuing). The investigative agencies of this coun-
try, the Department of Justice, were fully aware of all this testimony
that you have given to us today.
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. And it was in the files of the Government?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. In other words, it is quite apparent, Mr. Chairman,
that this information has been available as to these Government em-
ployees for a period of almost 2 years.
Mr. MuNDT. It is also quite apparent that we need a new Attorney
General.
Mr. Rankin. Does that apply to Remington, too? [Laughter.]
Mr. Nixon. Well, from that standpoint, Mr. Remington is still
on the Government pay roll. I would like to say, Mr. Chairman,
that I have no further questions.
I think that, although obviously we would be critical of any person
who would, of course, indulge in the type of activities which the people
involved in this ring did indulge in — that certainly this witness de-
serves the commendation of the members of the committee and, I think,
of the American public generally for the courage which she has dis-
played once she saw what was happeniiftg in coming to the investigative
agencies of this country and now in open session and telling her story.
I think that those of us who have been dealing in this field with
Communist espionage, and who know the ends to which the Commu-
nists would go in attempting to see that such information does not
reach the agencies that might prosecute them, certainly know that
she did take a considerable risk, and I certainly believe she deserves
commendation from all of us for having taken that risk.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I have one or two questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Rankin.
Mr. Rankin. You say that you never met Mr. Currie ?
Miss Bentley. Not personally; no.
Mr. Rankin. You never saw him?
Miss Bentley. No.
Mr, Rankin. You would not know him if you saw him ?
Miss Bentley. I think I have seen his picture in the papers, but I
do not know if I would recognize him.
Mr. Rankin. Now, this information that came to you through a
man named Silverman
Miss Bentley. That is right.
Mr. Rankin (continuing). Was passed on to a man iiiamed Silver-
master.
Miss Bentley. Or Mr, Ullmann, depending on the situation.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 557
]\Ir. Kankix. It came to you third hand?
Miss Bentley. Correct.
Mr. Eankin. Now, Silverman, you say, is a Communist?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. And Silvermaster is a Communist?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr R \NKiN. And no Communist has any regard for the truth, has
he?
Miss Bentley. Well, it depends on the situation.
Mr. Rankin. That is what I say. They have no regard for the
truth. When it suits tlieir purpose to lie they just as soon lie as tell
the truth; is that not right?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Rankin. Now, the thing that disturbs me is that you take the
testimony, the statement of two men. Silverman and Silvermaster, re-
layed from one to the other, about what this Scotchman in the White
House, 'Sir. Currie, said about communism.
Did you ever investigate to find out whether or not Silverman or
Silvermaster were telling the truth?
Miss Bentley. Well, for one thing, in espionage rings you cannot
investigate. Thej^ are built up on this particular type of flimsy con-
nection.
Mr. Rankin. Well, here we have gone on all day — here is what is
disturbing me — I would not know Mr. Currie; I am fairly familiar
with the incumbents of the White House and have been for the last
15 or 20 years. I do not know him. I know Mr. Mclntyre and Steve
Early, and all those gentlemen, but the thing that disturbs me is that
here we are voting by a vote of 3 to 2 to keep from inquiring about one
man, and yet we have put this committee — we have put in the whole
day accepting from an ex-Communist, which you admit you are, tes-
timony relayed through two Communists as to wliat this man Currie
in tlie White House is supposed to have said.
Now, that looks to me as if we are going pretty far afield wlien we
take tliat kind of testimony and charge all this up to Mr. Currie.
When I glance over the list I see several that seem to me who would be
more lilcely to have given that information than Currie, who occupied
similar positions. But here we put in a whole day, a whole day,
smearing Currie by remote control through two Communists, either
one of whom you admit would swear to a lie just as soon as he would
swear to the trutli if it suited hisi)urposes, and relayed to you, who at
that time was a member of the Communist Party. We have come in
jiere and put in a whole day with that kind of testimony about a man
wlio liappened to occupy a rather responsible position in the White
House, and yet we shy around and we are denied the opportunity or
the right to ask a question about this man Remington, who is still on
tlie pay roll.
^liss Bentley. Might I say just one thing in that respect? It is
quite true that Communists lie to the outside world. It is not true
tliat they lie within th.e party, particularly to the person whom they
regard as their superior. They do not do that. That was what was
told me by Mr. Silvermaster. I liave every reason to believe that he
Avas telling me the truth. I have no desire to smear anyone. I have
simply told the facts as they were told to me. It is up to the committee
to decide whether or not that is credible or not.
558 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Rankin. You certainly have an unlimited credibility. If yoii
would take the word of any Connnunist, Silverman or Silvermaster,
or both of them, and I believe you named another one, whom you re-
layed it through, who was also a Communist, if you take that testi-
mony as to what this man Currie, as I said, a Scotchman, has said
about the Communists — it just looks to me as if we have gone pretty
far afield here to smear this man by remote control, instead of getting
someone who heard him or who knew that he had made any state-
ment.
Now, I am not defending anybody. Every Communist in the
United States ought to be shipped out of this country. Instead of
opening the gates of immigration, they should put them in reverse
and ship out by boatload until we get rid of these Communists in
this country, those should be shipped out. That is how strong I feel
about it. If this man Currie was doing this, he ought to have been
shot, and if he was not, Silverman ought to have been shot, and Silver-
master ought to have been shot. If they were making up this stuff,
if it was to their benefit to smear Currie, they ought to be shot.
The Chairman. We will leave the shooting up to somebody else.
Mr. Rankin. I would like to ask, and I am denied the right to ask
you, one question about Remington.
The Chairman. Any questions, Mr. Hebert?
Mr. Hebert. No, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. MuNDT. I have a question. I wonder. Miss Bentley, have you
ever had occasion to read the Communist-control bill which was re-
ported out by the House, and referred to frequently as the Mundt-
Nixon bill, in the newspaper, which was passed by the House?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I studied it quite thorough!}'. I was very much
interested in it.
Mr. MuNDT. From your knowledge of how the Communist espio-
nage activities take place, and how the Communists opei-ate in this
country, do you feel that that would be an effective piece of legislation
if it ultimately wins Senate approval ?
Miss Bentley. I do very definitely because without putting them
underground, it brings them out in the open and makes them stand
up and be counted; and I think that if all propaganda was labeled
where it came from, and people were labeled as to what they are, that
the real face behind the mask would come out in the open, and a lot of
naive dupes who have been taken in by this would certainly not be
taken in any longer.
Mr. MuNDT. And it certainly would not make it more difficult, even
with an Attorney General of the kind that we have now, for a Com-
munist to hold a ])osition with the Federal Government if he recog-
nized that it would be a penitentiary offense?
Miss Bentley. Exactly. I imagine that the Attorney General and
the authorities have been hampered by present regulations on com-
munism, since they must be guided by laws.
Mr. MuNDT. I think that is right. But the thing that disturbs us
in the committee is that the same Attorney General, who says he is
liampered by present legislation, seeks to hinder new legislation that
vould do the job.
Mr. Rankin. If you will get your leader in the United States Sen-
ate to make a motion to discharge a bill from committee and get it
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 559
before the Senate for passage, he will get it ready to be passed this
week.
Mr. MuNDT. I will try to do that. He is awfully busy working on
your poll-tax bill. [Laughter.]
The Chairman. ]Mr. Nixon, do you have any more questions?
Mr. Nixon. No.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell, do you have any more questions?
Mr. McDowell. I have no more questions, Mr. Chairman, but I
A^ouid like to say something in view of tlie questions that have been
asked and the position that the witness has been placed in.
It is very familiar to all of us in the committee that intelligent edu-
cation is no bar to being a Communist; that actually thousands of the
leading Communists of America and the world are highly educated
people who, by some means, become Communists.
In your case, it was a matter of your emotions which led you into
this dismal world, and I think the committee should recognize, and
that all Americans should recognize, that when you discovered what
it was, you did the only proper, good, and decent thing that you
could do.
I would like to point out to tlie members of the committee that here
in "Washington and elsewhere in the United States on the pay roll of
the United States are former members of the Communist Party who
discovered their error, and when they got fair jobs, and good jobs,
and decided that that sort of life was comfortable and easy, they slid
out of connnunism, and did nothing to rectify the damage that they
did.
Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, here is an American
citizen who delved into this business, and now has the courage to walk
tlirough the valle}' of the shadow of publicity that she is doing now,
and I want to commend her, and I think that every member of this
committee will properly join me in that, and I would like to make
this point, Mr. Chairman, that I assume that her subpena will be
extended for perhaps another hearing to be held in the future, and I
would like to point out to all the members of this committee, and all
the members of the staff of this Committee on Un-American Activities,
they know that she has placed herself in a highly dangerous position.
We all know, all of us on the committee, that young women have dis-
appeared from the face of the earth here in the United States because
the Connnunists thought they betrayed the Communist Party.
We know that they murder, they slaughter, and do everything;
and I would like to suggest, Mr. Chairman, that in your closing re-
marks you order the operators of the committee to be available to her
if she should need them, that the marshals in New York City, or wher-
ever she should be, should be alerted, and the Attorney General, and
the FBI.
Mv. Rankin. I just want to say that I commend the lady very
highly for coming here and giving this information, and one of the
last witnesses that I know of who turned and exposed the Communist
Party before this committee was a Negro. They had taken him to
Moscow to teach him how to do revolutionary w^ork, how to burn ware-
houses, how to blow up dams and essential materials, and he sat in
that witness stand, and I realized that he was going through the same
danger that you are going through now^ I know^ that better than any-
560 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
body else oil the committee, because I get more threats than any other
Member of Congress, and not only did I try to keep the Dies committee
alive, but I created this committee as a standing committee of the
House. It has done more to expose the Communists in this country
than any other agency, or all of the agencies of the Government com-
bined.
I congratulate you on coming and making this statement, regardless
of the errors, and I think you are rather late in seeing the light, but
better late than never, and I commend you on the statements that you
have made, and I am sorry I cannot ask you any questions on Reming-
ton.
The Chairman. I had olie or two questions.
When you had these meetings with the Assistant Secretary of the
Soviet Embassy, in what year were they held ?
Miss Bentley. Well, I met him originally in October 19i4, and the
last time I saw him was late in November 1945.
The Chairmax. How did he contact you?
Miss Bentley. The contact I had at that time arranged for me to
meet him, that I was to meet him at a drug store on ]M Street and Wis-
consin Avenue, and I have forgotten the word we used, but I was to
carry a copy of Time magazine, I think, and he was to come up and
ask me if I was not his old friend Mary, and I was to say, ''Yes," I
believe.
The Chaieman. I mean, how did he contact you so that you would
have the meeting? Was it by telephone?
Miss Bentley. Oh, no ; it was through a contact that I had at that
time, another Russian contact made the engagement.
The Chairman. Do you recall what his name was?
Miss Bentley. I do not know his real name. He was known as
Jack.
The Chairman. Now, you mentioned, and this is one more point that
I have and the only point that I have reference to, you mentioned
that Silverman or Silvermaster, I guess it was, knew about D-day
before anyone else that you had conferred with. Why did you make
a point of that ?
Miss Bentley. I suppose because it just stuck in my mind out of
all the other things.
The Chairman. Well, did he know about D-da}^ many days before
Ol'
Miss Bentley. Yes; it came actually from Mr. Ullmann, not from
Mr. Silvermaster.
The Chairman. And Mr. Ullmann said that Silvermaster knew all
about D-day before?
Miss Bentley. No; Mr. Ullmann was in the Pentagon with the
Air Corps, and through his connections with General Hilldring's
office he had learned the date, and I remember it distinctly because
with that knowledge he was betting with a friend of his when D-day
Avould be and, of course, he won tlie bet, since he knew it ahead of
time.
The Chairman. When you were interrogated by the FBI, did they —
I assume they looked over all of your correspondence and papers, and
iinything that you had?
Miss Bentley. I did not have any papers.
i
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 561
The CiiAiRMAN. Did you have any written contacts at all with
any of these Russians or with any of these Communists?
Miss Bentley. Written contact with the Russians? No.
The Chairman. Did you have any long-distance telephone conver-
sations Avith any of them?
Miss Bentley. With the Russians? No.
The Chairman. Did you have any long-distance telephone con-
versations with Silvermaster?
Miss Bentley. Yes. Helen Silvermaster called me once long dis-
tance in the fall of 19J:1, 1 recall.
The Chairman. She called you from Washington ?
Miss Bentley. She called me from Washington at my home.
The Chairman. Your home? Where was your home then?
Miss Bentley. 58 Barrow Street.
The Chairman. New York City ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you remember any other long-distance tele-
phone calls that you got from any of these people ?
Miss Bentley. I think those were the only ones that I knew of,
yes. That is tlie only one. I might explain that very few of these
people knew my real name and my phone number, so that it would
not have been possible for them to call me, and I never made a prac-
tice of calling people long distance, so that accounts for that fact.
The Chairinian. Does anyone else have any questions?
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chairman, the chairman made reference to the
Federal Bureau of Investigation in his interrogating of the witness.
I think that we all recognize that the testimony that we have received
today, of course, would need some corroboration. The only witnesses
that we have indicated as yet that we are going to have are those
that have been named as having participated in the ring. I believe
that the chair could well take under consideration the question of
calling before the committee the Director of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation to obtain any corroborative evidence that he may have
as to these activities.
The Chairman. I want to say a word about that. The closest rela-
tionship exists between this committee and the FBI. I cannot say
as much as between this committee and the Attorney General's office,
but the closest relationship exists between this committee and the
FBI. I think there is a verv ffood understanding between us. It
is something, however, that we cannot talk too much about. 1 am
quite certain that if they felt that they could give us anything,
without endangering their own position, or in any way endangering
their sources of infoi-mation. they would be glad to cooperate.
Now. I want to say this to the witness before something else : We
appreciate very much your being a witness before this committee,
and we fully realize that you have had a gruelling time of it over the
past years, particularly the past few months. Your ability to stand
up under it in the way you have is certainly something to be proud of.
I thank you very much for coming, and you will remain under our
subpena. however, and ^'•ou should expect to be called back at an
early date.
In the meantime, we shall keep in touch with you, and we would
appreciate it if you would advise Mr. Stripling on how you could be
80408—48 5
562 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
reached at all times, and where you can be reached, and always di-
rectly, through no intermediary.
So, we will probably see you in the near future, and we thank you.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, you mentioned General Hilldring
of the Air Corps.
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. You do not know his first name ?
Miss Bentley. No ; I am sorry, I do not, but I believe his name was
in all the papers at the time, and I believe he is a fairly famous in-
dividual.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I ask that we be permitted to put his
full name into the record, if you can ascertain it. We have attempted
to do so at this time.
The Chairman. Whose full name?
Mr. Stripling. General Hilldring. If there was a General Hill-
dring connected with the Air Force during that period, we would like
permission to insert his full name into the record.
The Chairman. Without objection it is so ordered as to putting
the full name in.
(Full name inserted in record: Maj. Gen. Jolm H. Hilldring,
retired 11)46.)
Are there any other questions?
Now, the Chair would also like to announce that the committee
will go into executive session just as soon as possible to determine
who the next witness will be, but from now on, most of the witnesses,
as far as I am concerned, all of the witnesses will be heard in public
hearing, and we will have Silvermaster and your friend Remington,
and many of the other witnesses who were invited today, and they
will all be given an opportunity to be heard, and we will be given
an oppoitunity to question them at length.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, I want to comment on what you said
about the FBI. I agree with everything you say about the FBI.
I think Edgar Hoover is one of the great men of this country, but
I do think that the FBI ought to be made an independent agency, and
I have a bill pending in this House for that purpose.
The Chairman. Is there anything more to bring up today by any
member of the committee or Mr. Stripling ?
Mr. Stripling. Not in open session.
The Chairman. If not, we will adjourn.
(Whereupon, at 3 : 45 p. m., the committee adjourned.)
heaeinCtS regarding communist espionage in
the united states government
TUESDAY, AUGUST 3, 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. G.
The committee met, pursufint to notice, at 11 a. m., in the hearing
room of the Conmiittee on Ways and Means, New House Office Build-
ing, Hon. Karl E. Mundt, presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives Karl E. Mundt, John
McDowell, Richard M. Nixon, John E. Rankin, J. Hardin Peterson^
and F. Edward Hebert.
Stall' members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator;
Louis Russell, William Wheeler, and Donald T. Appell, investigators ;
and A. S. Poore, editor, for the committee.
Mr. Mundt. The hearing will come to order. The members present
are Messrs. McDowell, Nixon, Rankin, Peterson. Hebert, and Mundt.
Mr. Stripling. The first witness, Mr. Chairman, is JSIr. Whittaker
Chambers.
Mr. Chambers, will you stand and raise your right hand and be
sworn, please?
Ml'. Mundt. Do you solemnly swear that tlie testimony you are
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. Chambers. I do.
TESTIMONY OF DAVID WHITTAKER CHAMBEES
Mr. Stripling. ]\Ir, Chambers, you are here before the committee
in response to a subpena that was served on you j-esterday by Mr..
Stephen W. Birmingham. Is that correct?
Mr. Chambers. I am.
Mr. Stripling. Will you state your full name ?
^Ir. Chambers. My name is David Whittaker Chambers.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chambers, will you raise your voice a little^
please ?
What is your present address ?
Mr. Chambers. 9 Rockefeller Plaza.
Mr. Stripling. That is your business address ?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. What is your present occupation ?
Mr. Chambers. I am senior editor of Time magazine.
Mr. Stripling. When and where were you born ?
563;
564 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Chambers. I was born April 1, 1901, in Philadelphia.
Mr. Striplixg. How long have yon been associated with Time
magazine ?
Mr. Chambers. Nine years.
Mr. Stripling. Prior to that time what was yonr occupation ?
Mr. Chambers. I was a member of the Communist Party and a paid
functionary of the party.
Mr. Stripling. When did you first join the Communist Party?
Mr. Chambers. 1924.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Chambers, people at the press table still feel they
can't hear you. Will you please speak louder?
Mr. Chambers. 1 will speak as loud as I can.
Mr. Stripling. Will you repeat when you joined the Communist
Party?
Mr. Chambers. I joined the Communist Party in 1924.
Mr. Stripling. How long did you remain a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Chamber. Until 1937.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you join the Communist Party?
Mr. Chambers. In New York City.
Mr. Stripling. When did you disassociate yourself with the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Chambers. I should like to read a statement if I may.
Mr. Stripling. A statement you have prepared yourself ?
Mr. Chambers. That I have myself prepared.
Mr. Stripling. I suggest the witness be permitted to read this. He
has shown it to me.
Mr. Mundt. I take it the statement you are about to read will
indicate why you did disassociate yourself from the party?
Mr. Chambers. I will try to do so.
Mr. Rankin. And we will be permitted to question him after this
statement ?
Mr. Mundt, Yes, sir.
You will be permitted to read it.
Mr. Chambers. Almost exactly 9 years ago — that is, 2 days after
Hitler and Stalin signed their pact — I went to Washington and re-
ported to the authorities what I knew about the infiltration of the
United States Government by Communists. For years international
communism, of which the United States Communist Party is an
integral part, had been in a state of undeclared war with this Re-
public. With the Hitler-Stalin pact, that war reached a new stage.
I regarded my action in going to the Government as a sim])le act of
war, like the shooting of an armed enemy in combat.
At that moment in history, I was one of the few men on this side of
the battle who could perform this service.
I had joined the Comnuniist Party in 1924. No one recruited me.
I had become convinced that the society in which we live, western
civilization, had reached a crisis, of which the First World War was
the military expression, and that it was doomed to collapse or revert
to barbarism. I did not understand tlie causes of the crisis or know
what to do about it. But I felt that, as an intelligent man, I must do
something. In the writings of Karl Marx I thought that I had found
the explanation of the historical and economic causes. In the writ-
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 565
iiigs of Lenin I thought I hiul found the answer to the question, Whtit
to do?
In 10;]T I repudiated Marx' doctrines and Lenin's tactics. Experi-
ence and the record had convinced me that communism is a form of
totalitarianism, that its triumph means shiver}' to men wherever they
fall under its sway, and spiritual nioht to the human mind and sonl.
I resolved to break with the Connnunist Party at whatever risk to my
life or other tragedy to myself or my family. Yet, so strong is the
hold which the insidious evil of communism secures on its disciples,
that I could still say to someone at the time : "I know that I am leaving
the winning side for the losing side, but it is better to die on the losing
side than to live under communism."'
For a year I lived in hiding, sleeping by day and watching through
the night with gun or revolver within easy reach. That was what
imderground commimism could do to one man in the peacefi»i United
States in the year 1938.
I had sound reason for supposing that the Communists might try
to kill nie. For a number of years I had myself served in the under-
ground, chiefly in Washington, D. C. The heart of my report to the
United States Government consisted of a description of the apparatus
to which I was attached. It was an underground organization of the
L^nited States Communist Party deA'eloped, to the best of my knowl-
edge, by Harold Ware, one of the sons of the Communist leader known
as "'Mother Bloor.*' I knew it at its top level, a group of seven or so
men, from among whom in later years certain members of Miss Bent-
ley's organization were apparently recruited. The head of the under-
ground group at the time I knew it was Xathan Witt, an attorney for
the National Labor Relations Board. Later, John Abt became the
leader. Lee Pressman was also a member of this group, as was Alger
Hiss, who, as a member of the State Department, later organized the
conferences at Dumbarton Oaks, San Francisco, and the United States
side of the Yalta Conference.
The purpose of this group at that time was not primarily espionage.
Its original puri)ose was the Communist infiltration of the American
Government. But espionage was certainly one of its eventual objec-
tives. Let no one be surprised at this statement. Disloyalty is a matter
of principle with every member of the Communist Party. The Com-
numist Party exists for the specific purpose of overthrowing the
Government, at the opportune time, by anj^ and all means; and each
of its members, by the fact that he is a member, is dedicated to this
purpose.
It is 10 years since I broke away from the Communist Party. Dur-
ing that decade I have sought to live an industrious and God-fearing
life. At the same time I have fought conmuuiism constantly by act
and written word. I am proud to appear before this committee. The
j.ublicity inseparable from such testimony has darkened, and will no
doubt continue to darken, my effort to integrate myself in the com-
munity of free men. But that is a small i)rice to pay if my testimony
helps to make Americans recognize at last that they are at grips witli
a secret, sinister, and enormously powerful force whose tireless pur-
pose is their enslavement.
At the same time, I should like, thus publicly, to call upon all ex-
Communists Avho have not yet declared themselves, and all men within
566 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
the Communist Party whose better instincts have not yet been cor-
rupted and crushed by it, to aid in this struggle while there is still
time to do so.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chambers, in your statement you stated that
jou yourself had served the underground, chiefly in Washington, D. C.
What underground apparatus are you speaking of and when was it
established ?
Mr. Chambers. Perhaps we should make a distinction at the begin-
ning. It is Communist theory and practice that even in countries
where the Comnuniist Party is legal, an underground party exists
side by side with the open party.
Tlie apparatus in Washington was an organization or group of that
underground.
Mr. Rankin. When you speak of the apparatus in Washington you
mean th^ Communist cell, do you not?
Mr. Chambers. I mean in effect a group of Connnunist cells.
Mr. Rankin. A group of Communist cells when you speak of
"apparatus" ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Was a plan devised by the Communists to infiltrate
the Government of the United States for the purpose of using these
cells for the benefit of the Soviet Union ?
Mr. Chambers. I would certainly say that that would be an ulti-
mate objective.
Mr. Stripling. What about the particular apparatus to which you
referred in your statement?
Mr. Chambers. Do you mean was it a Soviet agency?
Mr. Stripling. Was it established for the purpose of causing people
in the Government to serve the ultimate objectives of the Soviet Union ?
Mr. Chambers. I think you could only say that in the extreme sense
the American party is an agency which serves the purpose of the
Soviet Government.
Mr. Stripling. Who comprised this cell or apparatus to which you
referred ?
Mr. Chambers. The apparatus was organized with a leading group
of seven men, each of wdiom was a leader of the cell.
Mr. Stripling. Could you name the seven individuals ? ,
Mr. Chambers. The head of the group as I have said was at first
Nathan Witt. Other members of the group were Lee Pressman, Alger
Hiss, Donald Hiss, Victor Perlo, Charles Kramer
Mr. MuNDT. What was Charles Kramer's correct name?
' Mr. Chambers. I think his original name was Krevitsky, and John
Abt — I don't know if I mentioned him before or not — and Henry
Collins.
Mr. Rankin. How about Harold Ware ?
Mr. Chambers. Harold Ware was, of course, the organizer.
Mr. Stripling. Harold Ware was the son of Ella Reeve Bloor, the
woman Communist?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know where in the Government these seven
individuals were employed?
Mr. Chambers. I did at one time. I think I could remember some
of them.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 567
Henry Collins was in the Department of Aoricnlture, Al<2:er Hiss
at that time I think was in the Munitions Investigation Committee or
wliatever the official title was, and Donald Hiss I think is in the Labor
Department, connected with innnig-ration.
I don't know otfhand what the others were doing.
JNIr. Stripling. Do yon know whether or not Nathan Witt was
employed in the AAA, the Agricultural Adjustment Administration?
INIr. Chambers. A nnmlier of these men had been in the AAA. I
think at that time Witt had already entered the National Labor Rela-
tions Board.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know whether or not Lee Pressman was also
in the AAA ?
Mr. Chambers. He was at one time.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I have a document here which shows
the employment history of Lee Pressman.
Mr. MuNDT. Will yon identify the document, please?
Mr. Stripling. It is Who's Who.
Mr. Rankin. Who's Who in American Jewry ; isn't it ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes ; Who's Who in American Jewry. He was as-
sistant general counsel of the Agricultural Adjustment Administra-
tion, Washington, D. C, from 193H until 1935, appointed by Secretary
of Agriculture Henry A. Wallace. Then he was general counsel in
Works Progress Administration from 1935, appointed by Harry L.
Hopkins. Then he was general counsel of the Resettlement Adminis-
tration, 1935, appointed by Rexford G. Tugwell. He was general
counsel, June 1936, for the Committee for Industrial Organization and
for the Steel Workers' Organizing Committee. General counsel,
March 1937, for Textile Workers' Organizing Committee.
Mr. Chairman, that completes his employment with the Govern-
ment service prior to his going with tlie CIO.
Do you know where John Abt v:as employed?
Mr. CiiAaiBERS. No; I don't. I have forgotten where he was at that
time.
jMr. MuNDT. Do you have his employment record ?
Mr. Stripling. According to Who's Who in Labor, INfr. Chairman,
he gives his Government service as follows :
Chief of Litigation, Agricultural Adjustment Administration, 1933
to 1935: assistant seneral counsel of the WPA in 1935; chief counsel
of the La Follette Civil Liberties Committee, 1930 to 1937; special
assistant to the LTnited States Attorney General, 1937 and 1938. He
is ]iow with the Progressive Party of Mr. Wallace.
Mr. Rankin. You mean this Lee Pressman is supporting Mr. Wal-
lace for the Presidency ?
, Mr. Stripling. He is associated in an official capacity with the
Progressive Party.
kMr. MuNDT. Mr. John Abt also.
Mr. Stripling. He likewise is associated with Mr. Wallace.
Mr. Hebert. There is no secret about the tie-up between Wallace and
the Communists. There is no need to pursue that.
1 Mr. Stripling. Do you recall where Donald Hiss was employed at
the time of this infiltration?
Mr. Chambers. I believe he was in the Department of Labor con-
nected with Immigration.
568 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, according to our check — I liaven't
checked back that far — but he is listed as an employee of the vState
Department February 1, 1988, to March 2(), 11)45.
Mr. MuNDT. Is Donald Hiss a brother of Alaer Hiss ?
Mr. Chambers. Younger brother of Alger Hiss.
Mr. Stripling. I have here the employment record of Alger Hiss.
Mr. MuNDT. I think you should read that into the record, including
liis present employment.
Mr. Stripling. 1929 to 1930 he was secretary and law clerk to a
Supreme Court justice. From 1980 until 1988 lie engaged in the
practice of law.
Mr. Rankin. May I ask what Supreme Court justice Avas he clerk
for?
Mr. Stripling. I will furnish you that, Mr. Bankin.
Mr. Rankin. I would like to have it in this record right here and
now. Can you give me that information ?
Mr. Stripling. I will furnish you that.
From 1933 to 1985 he was employed by the Agricultural Adjustment
Administration. However, during the year 1984 he was also attached
to a special Senate committee investigating the munitions industry.
In 1935 he was employed as a special attorney by the Department
of Justice. September 13, 193C), he was appointed an assistant to the
Assistant Secretary of State. That is the information that I have as
of this time.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you have the record of when he left the State De-
partment ?
Mr. Stripling. That information will be forthcoming very shortly.
Mr. MuNDT. And why. Do you have the reason why he was re-
moved from the State Department?
Mr. Stripling. I have no information that he was removed, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Chambers, in connection with tliis apparatus operating liere,
what was your participation or your function in connection with it?
Mr. Chambers. Originally I came to Washington to act as a courier
between New York and Washington, which in effect was between
this apparatus and New York.
Mr. Stripling. You Avere a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Chambers. I was.
Mr. Stripling. Were you a paid functionary of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Did you meet with all these men you mentioned?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you meet with them?
Mr. Chambers. At the home, the apartment of Henry Collins,
which was at St. Matthews Court here in Washington.
Mr. Stripling. Did this apparatus have a so-called headquarters?
Mr. Chambers. It wasn't called a headquarters, but the St. Mat-
thews Court apartment was the closest thing to a headquarters it had.
Mr. Stripling. Did Hal Ware also have an apartment where you
met from time to time ?
Mr. Chambers. No; he undoubtedly had an apartment, but no one
met there tliat I know of.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 569
Mr. Stripling. Did his sister have a studio near Dupont Circle?
Mr. Chambers. His sister had a violin studio near Dupont Circle,
■which was used as a kind of casual meeting place or rendezvous for
members of the group.
Mr. Striplix(;. Would you say most of the meetings were held in
Henry Collins' apartment?
Mr. Chambers. All the group meetiugs were held there, not in
tlie studio.
Mr. Stripling. Henry Collins' apartment?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. Who was the woman who ran the studio?
Mr. Chambers. Helen Ware.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chambers, when you met with these people at
Mr. Collins' apartment, did you collect Communist Party dues from
them?
Mr. Chambers. I did not, but the Communist Party dues were
handed over to me by Collins, who was the treasurer of that group.
Mr. Stripling. Were all of these people members of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Did an individual by the name of J. Peters have
jtnything to do with the operation of this group ?
Mr. Chambers. J. Peters was, to the best of my knowledge, the
head of the whole underground United States Communist Party.
Mr. Stripling. Did he from time to time come to AVashington?
Mr. Chambers. He did.
Mr. Stripling. Was he responsible for the setting up of this group?
Mr. Chambers. Ultimately he must have been. He was certainly
Harold Ware's superior.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know what J. Peters real name is?
Mr. Chambers. I have been told, I think it was Goldenweis, or
some such name.
Mr. Stripling. Goldberger?
Mr. Chambers. Goldberger.
Mr. Rankin. What was his given name?
Mr. Chambers. He was known to me for 3'ears simply as Peters.
Mr. Stripling. His name, Mr. Rankin, is well known in Communist
Party circles. He has gone under the name of J. Peters, also under
the name of Alexander Stevens, and has traveled on false passports
under the name of Isidore Boorstein.
On October 30, 1946
Mr. Chambers. May I interrupt?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Chambers. Peters told me at one time that he had been a petty
officer in the Austrian Army during World War I. After the Bela Kun
revolution in Hungary he was a member of the Soviet Government of
Hungarv, I think, in the agricultural commissariat.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, the Committee on Un-American
Activities on August 19, 1947, issued a subpena to be served upon J.
Peters calling for his appearance before the committee on October 30
of that year. We made a very diligent effort both in New York City
and in up-State New York to serve this subpena. We have never
been able to locate him and ^xe. have asked the assistance of the Depart-
570 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
ment of Justice and Immigration authorities, but still we have been
unable to serve a subpena upon this individual.
In Communist Party circles, according to our investigation, he has
for years been known as the head of the underground.
Was that your understanding, Mr. Chambers?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; it was.
Mr. Stripling. When you were in the party ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. You say this man was formerly a member of a foreign
army and served as a member of the commissariat of a foreign gov-
ernment. Do you know whether he ever became an American citizen ?
Mr. Chambers. No; I do not know. I think the presumption is
probably he did not.
Mr. MuNDT. He did not?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. The presumption is that the top direction of these
espionage activities carried on throughout our governmental depart-
ments was conducted by a man who was not an American citizen.
Mr. Stripling. He is not an American citizen, Mr, Chairman.
Mr. Chambers. I am not surprised.
Mr. Stripling. Deportation order has been issued against him in the
last year, but his whereabouts is still unknown to us. He is a very
important witness.
Mr. MuNDT. Has the Department of Justice ever been able to locate
him?
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Thomas, the chairman of our committee, com-
municated with officials of the Justice Department this year, as well
as last year, in an effort to locate Mr. Peters, and so far we have not
received information as to where he is.
Mr. MuNDT. They will have to modify that statement that they
always get their man and add "with the exception of Mr. Peters."
Mr. Rankin. You understand, Mr. Chairman, in the State of New
York under their present FEPC law you can't ask a man who applies
for employment what his name was before it was changed or where
he came from, so that it is a veritable storm cellar for people of that
character.
Mr. Stripling. We have in our possession a passport issued October
7, 1931, which was used by Peters to travel to the Soviet Union.
The name on the passport is that of Isidore Boorstein.
Mr. MuNDT. How does a man who is not an American citizen get
a passport for travel abroad?
Mr. Chambers. Maj^ I interrupt? Peters once explained to me his
process of securing false passports.
Mr. MuNDT. I wish you w^ould go into that in some detail because
there have been many instances and it has become veritable racket
where these Communists get passports to visit Soviet Russia.
Mr. Chaimbers. He told me with great amusement because of the
simplicity of the scheme. He had sent up to the genealogical division
of the New York Public Library a group of young Communists, I
presume, who collated the birth and death records; that is, they found
that a child had been born, let us say, in 1900 and died a month or so
later or several months later.
The party through some members then wrote to the proper authori-
ties in New York for issuing birth certificates and asked for a birth
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 571
certificate in the name of that dead chikl. The certificate was forth-
coming and a pass])ort Avas tlien applied for under that name by some-
one using tliat birth certificate.
Mr. Striplixg. AVe have an example, Mr. Chairman, of a passport
being obtained through that ^ame technique by the Communist Party
in South Carolina.
Mr, Rankin. Under the FEPC law in New York, you couldn't even
ask that man for his birth certificate or where he came from if he
applied for emplojanent.
Mr. ]\IcDowELL. For the present record it ought to be said that many
Chinese have entered the United States by that same method in the
last 15 years.
]Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chambers, when you would meet at the apart-
ment of Mr, Collins and he would turn over Communist Party dues,
would he turn over any other information to you, any other dues or
information other than from these seven people i
Mr, Chambers. Well, the dues were not simply from the seven
people, I believe. Dues were from the whole apparatus, cells which
were headed bj^ these seven people,
Mr. Stripling. How much money was turned over to you from time
to time ?
Mr, Chambers. That I don't know.
Mr, Stripling, Was it a considerable sum ?
Mr. Chambers. M}" impression was that it was and I believe I heard
that because at that time the dues were 10 percent of whatever the
individual's salary was.
Mr. MuNDT. Miss Bentley testified before our committee and said
that in her capacity as courier between Communist headquarters in
New York and Washington, I think chronologically she followed you
as courier and did that work, she mentioned that she also brought
Communist litei'ature and instructions from New York to Washing-
ton. Did you also do that ?
Mr. Chambers, I did.
Mr. MuNDT. You did that, too?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Stripling, When Miss Bentley testified before the committee
last Saturday, Mr. Chambers, she mentioned the name of Victor Perlo
as being the head of an espionage group. You have named Victor
Perlo as a member of the apparatus.
Mr, Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. At that time do you know whether or not Victor
Perlo was employed in the Government?
Mr, Chambers. I believe at that time Victor Perlo was employed
by the Brookings Institution.
Mr. MuNDT, I think we read his employment record into the record
of the hearing while Miss Bentley was testifying, did we not ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes, ]Mr. Chairman. I have his employment his-
tory here. It is already in the record,
Mr, MuNDT, He was employed with the Govermnent several times?
Mr. Stripling, That is true, and was with the Brookings Institution,
also.
Would you tell the committee, Mr. Chambers, whether or not you
ever held any important positions in the Comnumist Part}'?
572 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr, Chambers. I would hesitate to fall them important. I was for
a number of years the actual editor of the Daily Worker. Tlie nomi-
nal editor was Robert Minor.
Mr. Stripling. Robert Minor?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Durino- what period was that?
Mr. Chambers. I should think from about 192() until 1929, when I
broke with the Communist Party for 2 years, but I broke with it on a
matter of tactics and not on a matter of philoso]5hy.
Mr. Stripling. When you left the Connnunist Party in 1987 did
you approach any of these seven to break with you ?
Mr. Chambers. No. The only one of those people whom I ap-
proached was Alger Hiss. I went to tlie Hiss home one evening- at
what I considered considerable risk to myself and found Mrs. Hiss
at home. Mrs. Hiss is also a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Mundt. Mrs. Alger Hiss?
Mr. Chambers. Mrs. Alger Hiss. Mrs. Donald Hiss, I believe, is
not.
Mrs. Hiss attempted while I was there to make a call, which I can
only presume was to other Communists, but I quickly went to the
telephone and she hung up, and Mr. Hiss came in shortly afterward,
and we talked and I tried to break him away from the party.
As a matter of fact, he cried when we separated; when I left him,
but he absolutely refused to break.
Mr. McDowell. He cried?
Mr. Chambers. Yes, he did. I was very fond of Mr. Hiss.
Mr. Mundt. He must have given you some reason why he did not
want to sever the relationship.
Mr. Chambers. His reasons were simply the party line.
Mr. Hebert. I think there is a differentiation there that the wit-
ness has said he broke not because of his philosophy, but because of a
disagreement as to tactics. What is the differentiation?
Mr. Chambers. It is not of very great importance, but Stalin liad
recently come to power in Russia in the Connnunist Party. Here in
the United States something entirely new happened within the party.
Until then there had always been a majority and a minority group
whose equal rights in debate vrere recognized. With the coming to
power of Stalin and the Browder-Foster group in the United States,
which represented the Stalin group, that was no longer true. Democ-
racy disappeared from the Comnuniist Party and the minority group
was liquidated. In fact, it was the majority group.
Mr. McDowell. Was that group that was liquidated the
Trotskyites ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; it was the Lovestoneites.
Mr. Hebert. But as I understand your testimony, under Lenin you
had democracy; is that right?
Mr. Chambers. No.
INIr. Hebert. You said with the coming of Stalin democracy was
wiped out.
Mr. Chambers. There was in the Communist Party before Stalin
the possibility of open argument between two groups of Communists,
so that within the Communist framework there was a kind of
democracy.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 573
Mr. Hebekt. You only quit because of the tactics and niecliaiiics
of the party, and not because of a change in philosophy ?
Mr. McDowell. The Lovestoneites were headed by Jay Lovestone*
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. McDowell. Is he still a member of the party?
Mr. Chambers. He was expelled in 1929.
Mr. Rankin. If it had not been for those changes m tactics, would
you still be a member of the Connnunist Party?
Mr. Chambers. At that time I was still a Communist, and I did not
leave because I had ceased to be a Communist. I left because of a
difference in tactics and a difference in atmosphere.
Mr. Rankix. When did you cease to be a Communist because of your
convictions ?
Mr. Chambers. 1937.
Mr. Rankin. Was Louis Budenz ever with you?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. Rankin. Do 3^ou know him ?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. MuNDT. As communism is now directed by Stalin from Moscow
and as his tactics are now carried out, how would you differentiate
between Stalin's communism and Hitler's nazism?
Mr. Chambers. I should find that very difficult to do. I would saj
that they are most totalitarian forms of government, if you like. I feel
quite unable to answer that.
Mr. MuNDT. Would you say they are both different facets of
fascism ?
Mr. Chambers; I think that would lead us into a very long discus-
sion.
Mr. MuNDT. Would you say the differentiation between fascism and
communism is a distinction without a difference?
Mr. Chambers. It can be said loosely that communism is a kind of
fascism, I think.
Mr. MuNDT. It is pretty hard to find any basic distinction between
fascism and communism as communism is practiced by the Stalinists
in JNIoscow and as they direct the activities of the American Communist
Party.
Mr. Chambers. I think you have raised a philosophical and intel-
lectual point which would require almost a book. It would require
almost a book to develop and interpret that.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know of any vital distinction between com--
munism as practiced in Russia and fascism as we generally understand
it to be ? I know the committee would be very glad to find that distinc-
tion because we have been unable to get it from any other witness.
Mr. Chambers. I don't feel qualified to emphasize the distinction,
Mr. Rankin. Communism is atheistic, is- it not ?
Mr. Chambers. It is.
Mr. Rankin. One of its basic principles is the wiping out of the
Christian church throughout the world?
Mr. Chambers. Wiping out of all religion. Every Communist is
ipso facto an atheist.
Mr. Rankin. It is also dedicated to the destruction of this Govern-
ment and to the wiping out of the American way of life ; is that cor-
rect?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; it can be said.
574 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Kankix. And also the wii:)ing out of what it calls the capitalist
system '?
Mr. Chambers. Certainly.
Mr. Kankin. The right to own private property ?
Mr. Chambers. That is true.
Mr. Rankin. In other words, communism would make a slave of
every American man, woman, and chilc^ excepting the commissars
that dominated them ; is that correct ?
Mr. Chambers. That is.
Mr. Rankin. And would close every Christian church in America?
Mr. Chambers. Well, the Russian Church seems to have some kind
-of unhappy existence.
Mr. Rankin. I understand, but you know that they closed every
church in Russia and they were closed at the time you quit the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Chambers. It can be said quite simply that communism is com-
pletely atheistic and is the enemy of religion in every form.
Mr. Rankin. In other words, they would close all churches of all
iinds ?
Mr. Chambers. Mohammedan mosques, Jewish synagogues, as well
as Christian churches'.
Mr. MuNDT. Go ahead, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chambers, Miss Bentley testified last Saturday,
and she named Harry Dexter White as a person who worked with the
espionage group. Did you know Harry Dexter Wliite?
Mr. Chambers. Yes, I did.
Mr. Stripling. Is Harry Dexter White a Communist? Was he a
Communist, to your knowledge?
Mr. Chambers. I can't say positively that he was a registered mem-
ber of the Communist Party, but he certainly was a fellow traveler so
far within the fold that his not being a Communist would be a mistake
on both sides.
Mr. Stripling. Did you go to Harry Dexter White when you left the
Communist Party and ask him also to leave the party?
Mr. Chambers. I did.
Mr. Stripling. You considered him to be a Communist Party mem-
ber, then ?
Mr. Chambers. Well, I accepted an easy phrasing. I didn't ask him
to leave the Communist Party, but to break away from the Communist
movement.
Mr. Stripling. What did he tell you?
Mr. Chambers. He left me apparently in a very agitated frame of
mind, and I thought I had succeeded. Apparently I did not.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you later have reason to feel that you had failed
in that effort?
Mr. Chambers. Miss Bentley's testimony and certain things I heard
from other sources assured me that I had failed.
Mr. MuNDT. Assured you that you had failed ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. McDowell. I think we should have Mr. White identified.
Mr. Stripling. He was identified in the record the other day as
Assistant Secretary of the Treasury and head of Monetary Research.
Mr. Hebert. This man White is the same man Wliite Miss Bentlej'
talked about; is that correct?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 575
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT, His employment record was read into the record on
Saturday.
Mr. Striplixo. Do you know an individual by the name of Harold
Glasser, who was associated with
Mr. Chambers. I think I was introduced once or twice to Glasser.
Mr. Stripling. He was also named, Mr. Chairman, by Miss Bentley.
How many times would you say you met Victor Perlo?
Mr. Chambers. It would be very difficult to say, but I knew him over
a period of
Mr. Stripling. Did yon know him rather well?
Mr. Chambers. Not very well. I didn't specially like him. He
seemed to be a rather sullen and shallow kind of man.
Mr. Rankin. Do yon know where he came from ?
Mr. Chambers. No; I don't.
]\Ir. Stripling. Do you know an individual named Owen Latimer?
Mr. Chambers. No ; I don't.
Mr. Mundt. You met Victor Perlo at this same Henry Collins'
apartment where you met these other gentlemen?
Mr. Chaivibers. That is right. It is, in fact, the only place I ever
saw him. I might add in that group he was a very minor figure.
There was some kind of a struggle going on among these people for
headship of the group because at one point Nathan Witt resigned, I
suppose, and the headship of this group was elected within the group.
Mr. Mundt. After your period as courier at the time Miss Bentley
took over, at that time Perlo had attained the leadership of one group
and Mr. Silvermaster the other, which was the result, I presume, of the
struggle you mentioned taking place within the apparatus at that time;
is that correct ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; I don't think there was any connection. The
rivalry was between John Abt and Victor Perlo, and, as I remember
it, the only person who voted in that meeting for Perlo was Perlo.
Mr. Stripling. Who was the actual head of the group ?
Mr. Chambers. The actual head of the group — well, the elected head
of the group was either Witt at one time or Abt, and the organizer of
the group had been Harold Ware. The head of the whole business was
J. Peters.
Mr. Stripling. Harold Ware was employed in the AAA, was he not ?
Mr. Chaisibers. I don't know whether he was or not. If I have
known, I have forgotten. My impression is he wasn't.
Mr. Stripling. Do you recall what happened to Harold Ware ?
Mr. Chambers. He was killed in an automobile accident.
Mr. Stripling. Here in Washington?
Mr. Chambers. No ; I think in Pennsylvania.
Mr. Rankin. What was his real name?
Mr. Chambers. As far as I know, Harold Ware. T neve.r knew him.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet Aubrey Williams?
Mr. Chambers. No; I never did.
Mr. Rankin. You say you are now with Time magazine ?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. Rankin. Are there any other Communists or ex-Communists in
key positions with that magazine?
Mr. Chambers, I would say that, like the American Government,
Time magazine has had its problems with communism.
576 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Rankin. You mean it still has them connected with it?
Mr. Chambers. No; I think being a smaller enterprise we have got
rid of our Communists.
Mr. Rankin. I see a name, William Schlamm. Do you know that
man?
Mr. Chamber^s. William Schlamm was an Austrian Communist who
broke with the party in 1929.
Mr. Rankin. Is he connected with Time magazine ?
Mr. Chambers. He is connected with Time, Inc., I believe.
Mr. Rankin. Time magazine has been rather relentless in its at-
tacks on this committee all along, and I was wondering what was the
motive behind it. Can you give us any answer to that.
Mr. Chambers. No; I don't feel qualified. That department of the
magazine in wdiich such news would appear I am not connected with.
Mr. Rankin. I see. Certainly it is no affection for communism.
Mr. S'lRiPLiNG. You said j'ou never met Aubrey Williams?
Mr. Chambers. That is true.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever hear Aubrey Williams' name discussed
at any of these meetings?
Mr. Chambers. I can't say definitely that I did, but I have heard
Communists mention Williams as a friend of the Communist Party.
Mr. Stripling. But 3'ou don't know whetlier or not he was a member
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. Stripling. He was considered by Communists to be friendly to
tlieir cause?
Mr. Chambers. That is true.
Mr. Hebert. Did you hear the name of Clark Foreman mentioned?
Mr. Chambers. No, I didn't.
• Mr. Hebert. At any time.
Mr. Chambers. No ; I am not familiar with that name.
Mr. Hebert. Can you at this time elaborate more on your connec-
tion with White?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; I can.
Mr. Hebert. In other words, you actually talked to AVhite?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; of course.
Mr. Hebert. You discussed matters with him. I think it would be
of interest to the committee to know what you discussed with him.
Mr. Chambers. After I had been in Washington a while it was very
clear that some of the members of these groups were going places in
the Government.
Mr. Hebert. What year is this?
Mr. Chambers. I should think about 19;')(). One of them clearly was
Alger Hiss, and it was believed that Henry Collins also might go
farther. Another w^as Lee Pressman. So it was decided by Peters,
or by Peters in conference with people whom I don't know, that we
would take these people out of that a])paratus and separate them from
it physically — that is, they would have no further intercourse with
the peo])le there — but they would be connected still with that apparatus
and with Peters through me.
It was also decided to add to this group certain other people who
had not originally been in that api)aratus. One of those people was
Harry AYliite.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 577
iVIr. Rankin. You referred to a man a while ago by the name of
Kramer.
Mr. Hehkkt. ]Mr. Rankin, would you mind letting him finish with
Mr. White?
Mr. Rankin. Very well.
Mr. Chambers. Do you care to question me about White?
Mr. Hebert. I want to finish concerning White.
Mr. Chambers. I thought I had.
Mr. Hebert. Was he considered as a source of information to the
Communist cell ?
Mr, Chambers. No. I should perhaps make the point that these
people were specifically not wanted to act as sources of information.
These people were an elite group, an outstanding group, which it was
believed would rise to positions — as, indeed, some of them did — notably
Mr. White and Mr. Hiss — in the Government, and their position in
the Government would be of very much more service to the Communist
Party -
jMr. Hebert. In other words, White was being used as an unwitting-
dupe ?
Mr. Chambers. I would scarcely say "unw^itting."
Mr. Hebert. Did he know what he was being used for ?
Mr. Cha^ibers. I doubt w^hether the word "used" is even proper.
Mr. Hebert. Employed?
Mr. Chambers. He was, as nearly as I know, perfectly willing to
cooperate.
Mr. Hejjert. In your connection with White and your conversations
with him — you met him personally and talked with him?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. From your conversations with him and his knowl-
edge of the information that the Communist group was securing, or
attempting to secure, and liis knowledge of the whole set-up, the whole
apparatus, w(juld you say from that — in your opinion — that would
elicit from him the exclamation over the week end, "This is fantastic !
It is sliocking !" that he w^as connected with the Communist group?
Mr. Chambers. He made this remark when he was asked
Mr. HEiiERT. It was reported in the press that when informed of
Miss Bentley's charges against him — and, mind you. Miss Bentley
says she never saw^ White and cannot connect White except by hear-
say evidence — that when he was confronted wnth Miss Bentley's testi-
mony and the statement she made before the committee last Saturday,
his exclamation was "It is fantastic ! It is shocking !"
From your information and personal knowledge, do you think that
is a spontaneous outburst of surprise that he was connected with such
a group in any way, even by remote control, as Mr. Rankin has said?
Mr. Chambers. After my evidence — my testimony — I should think
he would have to find some more adjectives.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chambers, would you say, then, that the pur-
pose of the Communist Party
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Stripling, is he finished with his questions in regard
to Mr. White?
Mr. Stripling. I want to make an observation in connection with
what he said.
Mr. Nixon. All right ; and I want to follow that.
80408 — 48 6
578 COMMUNIST ESPIOXAGE
Mr. Stripling. I want to get clear the status of tliis select group
that infiltrated the Government.
Would you say the purpose was, on the part of the Communists,
to establish a beachhead or a base from which they could move further
into the Government and obtain positions of power, influence, and
possible espionage?
Mr. Chambers. I would say power and influence were the para-
mount objectives. • .
Mr. Stripling. At that time?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; at that time. You must remember you are
dealing with the underground here in a formative stage, with Com-
munists many of whom had not been in the party more than a year
or so.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chambers, I want to ask you about this man you
referred to a while ago, Charles Kramer. How do you spell that?
Mr. Chambers. I believe it is spelled K-r-a-m-e-r.
Mr. Rankin. What did you say his real name was ?
Mr. Chambers. Krevitsky.
Mr. Rankin. Where did he come from?
Mr. Chambers. I haven't the remotest idea.
Mr. Rankin. Was he a Communist ?
Mr. Chambers. I did hear. I think he came from New York City.
He was an NYU man.
Mr. Rankin. Was he a Communist ?
Mr. Chambers. Of course.
Mr. Rankin. Is that the same man who it was testified worked in
the office of Senator Pepper at one time and Senator Kilgore at
another ?
Mr. Chambers. I believe he was ; yes.
Mr. Rankin. Do you know whether or not he was one of the men
connected with the trumping up the persecution of Senator Bilbo?
Mr. Chambers. I am not familiar with that.
Mr. Rankin. You knew tliat Communists picketed Senator Bilbo's
boarding house within two or three blocks of the Senate Office Build-
ing for months and months, did you not?
Mr. MuNDT. I object to the designation of ""boarding house." That
is an apartment house, in which I live.
Mr. Rankin. Very well. We will call it an apartment house since
Mr. Mundt objects to calling it a boarding house. However, he did
have to hold his nose in order to get through that picket line.
You said a moment ago when you quit the Communist Party you
carried a gun.
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Rx\NKiN. Why did you carry that gun?
Mr. CiixVMBERs. I carried the gun because I believed that the Com-
munists might attempt to kill me.
Mr. Rankin. That is their program, is it, disposing of the men who
quit the Communist line?
Mr. CiiAMP.ERS. No; I wouldn't say it was an invariable program.
They never did kill me.
INIr. Rankin. I understand; but you were prepared for it?
Mr. Chambers. It seemed to me that they might very well make
the attempt.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 579
"Sir. Raxkix. You were doing it because you knew your life was in
(lano;er?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Eankix. And you knew that if they did get an opportunity to
bump you oif without getting caught, tliat would probably be the
course Ihey would pursue ?
Mr. Chambers. It seemed the natural thing.
jMr. MuNDT. Mr. Chambers, I am very much interested in trying to
check the career of Alger Hiss. I know nothing about Donald Hiss ;
but as a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee, the personnel com-
mittee, I have had some occasion to check the activities of Alger Hiss
while he was in the State Department.
There is reason to believe that he organized within that Department
one of the Communist cells wdiich endeavored to influence our Chinese
policy and bring about the condemnation of Chiang Kai-shek, which
put Marzani in an important position there, and I think it is important
to know what happened to these people after they leave the Govern-
ment. Do you know where Alger Hiss is employed now ?
Mr. Chambers. I believe Alger Hiss is now the head of the Carnegie
Foundation for World Peace.
Mr. MuNDT. That is the same information that had come to me- and
I am happy to have it confirmed. Certainly there is no hope for world
peace under the leadership of men like Alger Hiss.
Mr, Rankin. Where is the headquarters of that organization?
Mr. Chambers. I do not know.
Mr. ISIcDowELL. New York.
Mr. Rankix. Under the New York FEPC law, you can't ask this
man whether he is a Comnnniist or not, or where he came from, or what
his name was before it was changed. You can't even ask for his photo-
graph. Of course, he can get into an institution of that kind in New
York, l)ut he couldn't do it in Mississippi.
Mr. Chambers. May I interrupt ?
Mr. ]\Iux"DT. Proceed.
Mr. Chambers. I think Mr. Donald Hiss, who was also in the State
Department, is now in Mr. Corcoran's law firm.
Mr. MuxDT. In Washington?
Mr. Chambers. In Washington ;'and was connected with the negoti-
ating of the loan to Poland.
Mr. MuNDT. Tommy Corcoran, of the Corcoran-Cohen team?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. MuxDT. Do you know where any of the other seven people are
employed ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; I couldn't say.
Mr. Raxkix'. Right at that point, don't you think Mr. Carnegie, the
rich Scotchman that developed this foundation, would turn over in his
grave if he knew that kind of people were running the foundation?
Mr. Chambers. I am afraid he would.
Mr. McDowell. I w^ould like to observe to the committee that — re-
ferring back to Mr. White, who was surprised and shocked at the
testimony given by Miss Bentley — that the Secretary of the Treasury
has more skilled investigators and detectives and various people who
are supposed to be able to develop in^formation than any other depart-
ment of the Government except the Attorney General ; and it is pass-
580 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
ingly strange that this man could associate and be connected personally
with this gang of international conspirators for as long a period as he
was and then still not know what he was doing.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chambers, you indicated that 9 years ago you came
to Washington and reported to the Government authorities concerning
the Communists who were in the Government.
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. To wdiat Government agency did you make that report?
Mr. Chambers. Isaac Don Levine, who is now the editor of Plain
Talk, approached the late Marvin Mclntyre, Mr. Roosevelt's secretary,
I believe, and asked him what would be the most proper form in which
the information I had to give could be brought before President
Roosevelt.
Mr. Mclntyre told Mr. Levine that Mr. A. A. Berle, the Assistant
Secretary of State, was Mr. Roosevelt's man in intelligence matters.
I then went to see Mr. Berle and told him much of what I have been
telling you.
Mr. MuNDT. That was in 1937?
Mr. Chambers. That was in 1939 about 2 days after the Hitler-
Stalin pact.
Mr. Nixon. When you saw Mr. Berle then did you discuss generally
tlie people that were in Government, or did you name specific namas ?
Mr, Chambers. I named specific names, Mr. Hiss among others.
Mr. Nixon. Did you name Mr. Witt?
Mr. Chambers. I certainly did.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Pressman?
Mr. Chambers. Mr. Pressman.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Perlo ?
Mr. Chambers. I think so.
Mr. NixoN. Mr. Kramer?
Mr. Chambers. Probably.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Abt?.
Mr. Chambers. Certainly.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Ware ?
Mr, Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Collins?
Mr. Chambers. Yes, I think so.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. White?
Mr, Chambers. No; because at that time I thought that I had
broken Mr. White awav, and it was about 4 years later tliat I first told
the P^BI about Mr. White.
Mr. Nixox. You told the FBI 4 years later when you had become
convinced you had not broken him away ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Collins was also in the State Department?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; I think he went in during the war.
Mr. MuNDT. He belonged to the Alger Hiss cell in the State Depart-
ment ?
Mr. Chambers. He did.
Mr. McDoAVELL. Mr. Berle, is he the present head of the Liberal
Party of New York State?
Mr. Chambers. I am not sure whether he is or not. "
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 581
Mr. MGDo^^■ELL. Wiis he the A. A. Berle who became an Ambassador
to one of the South American countries?
Mr. Chambers. Brazil, I believe. He is an anti-Communist, it
should be said, and a very intelligent man.
Mr. Raxkix. Mr. Berle?
Mr. Chambers. Mr. Berle is an anti-Communist.
Mr. Nixox. ]SIr. Chambers, were you informed of any action that
was taken as a result of your report to the Government at that time?
Mr. Chambers. No; I was not. I assumed that action would be
taken right away which was, of course, rather naive of me; and it
wasn't until a great deal later that I discovered apparently nothing
had been done.
Mr. Nixox. It is significant, I think, that the report was made 2
days after the Stalin-Hitler pact at the time, in other w^ords, when we
could not say by any stretch of the imagination that the Russians were
(jur allies; and yet, apparently, no action was taken.
Mr. Chambers. Well, we are here in an area of government which I
am not qualified to talk about.
Mr. Raxkix. What is that ?
Mr. Chambers. We are here in an area of government policies I
am not qualified to talk about.
Mr. Nixox. I understand.
Mr. MuxDT. At the time you reported these names to Mr. Berle, you
had reason to believe that Communist Russia might well become an
active enemy of this co'untry rather than a friend through that Stalin-
Hitler Pact"?
Mr. Chambers. I never supposed Russia at any time was anything
but an enemy of this country. It is an enemy of all democratic coun-
tries.
Mr. Raxkix. I would like to ask about this statement. In your
statement which vou read to the committee awhile ago vou use this
statement :
"Disloyalty is a matter of principle with every member of the Com-
munist Party.''
That was true back in the days when you were a member, was it?
Mr. Chambers. It was true from the time of the First International.
Mr. Raxkix. You knew it was true then?
Mr. Chambers. Of course.
Mr. Raxkix. You say the Communist Party exists for the specific
purpose of overthrowing the Government at the opportune time by
Mr. Raxkix. Now, you mentioned a while ago Kramer. He is
a member is dedicated to this purpose. That was the case when you
were a member and that is the case today ?
^Ir. Chambers. That has been the case for just 100 j^ears.
^Ir. Raxkix. In other words, every Communist who is now meeting
in New York is dedicated to the destruction of this Government?
Mr. Chambers. Yes. I refer you to the words of INIarx and Lenin.
Mr. Raxkix. Now, you menticmed a while ago Kramer. He is
the fellow Krevitsky we referred to before?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Chairman, may I ask the witness:
Did you know a man named Saposs?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; I know of him. I do not know tliat he is a
Connnunist.
582 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr, Hebert. What do you know about his activities?
Mr. Chambers. I know nothing about his activities. I knew him
3^ears ago as the author of a rather dull book on labor problems.
Mr. Hebert. You don't link him with these activities ?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. Hebert. What was Mr. Berle's attitude when vou turned this
information over to him?
Mr. Chambers. Considerable excitement.
Mr. Hebert. What did he tell you ?
Mr. Chambers. I don't know that he made any very sensational
comment, but he said among other things that we absolutely have to
have a clean Government service because we are faced with the pros-
pect of war. I am paraphrasing that. That is not an exact quota-
tion.
Mr. Hebert. In view of the statements of Mr. Chambers at this
time may I suggest that this committee invite Mr. Berie to come here
so we can get the background and also corroborate this testimony. I
think it is most important that every chain be linked with the other
chain in this situation.
Mr. Mundt. Is he in this country ?
Mr. Hebert. If he is in the cou.ntry. he should be invited to come.
I have every reason to respect the integrity of Mr. Berle.
Mr. Mundt. The Committee will take that up in executive session.
Mr. Rankin. ]\lr. Berle testified befoi'e the committee last year.
Mr. Hebert. During tlie discussions on the Mundt-Nixon bill. But
the purpose now is to have him corroborate this. What I am most
interested in is that this committee is not witch hunting or Ked bait-
ing, but is trying to get the facts of what is going on. Since this is
a public hearing, I think all these matters should be brouglit out in
full public gaze and for full public interpretation and appreciation
of what we are trying to do; and for that reason I think every indi-
vidual mentioned should be brought before the committee to either
corroborate the testimony or impeach it.
Mr. Berle's attention was directed to this matter, and I think it is
of interest to the connnittee and the people at large to know why
methods were pursued.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chambers, you indicated a moment ago that it was
approximately 4 years after you had spoken to Mr. Berle that you
went before the FBI.
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. NixoN. At that time you did give the FBI information concern-
ing White?
Mr. Chambers. White, that is right.
Mr. NixON. Also did I understand you to say that Donald Hiss
in his connection with Mr. Corcoran was active in negotiating the loan
to Poland?
Mr. Chambers. I have been told that.
Mr. Mundt. Is that all, Mr. Nixon ?
Mr. NixoN. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Hebert mentioned a while ago the fact that this
committee had been accused of ''Red baiting." It has only been accused
of "Red baiting" by the Reds, their stooges, and fellow travelei-s.
No intelligent American who Imows the facts has ever accused this
committee of "Red baiting."
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 583
Mr. MuNDT. Any other questions?
Mv. Hebert. May I pursue just one more?
Mr. MuNDT. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. What is your educational background?
Mr. Chambers. I went to tlie public schools and then went to Co-
lumbia University for a year and a half.
Mr. Hebert. It is interesting to note that every time we talk about
communism we hear about Columbia University.
Mr. CnA3iBERs. There wasn't any in Columbia at that time. I be-
came a Communist after I left the university.
Mr. Kankix. How about comnumism in that institution now?
jNIr. Chambers. I am not qualified to discuss it.
Mr. Hebert. You became a Communist through no persuasion of
anybodv else but purely through your own conclusions, in trying to
follow jihilosophical thinking — you thought it was something to make
a better world, to make the world a better place to live in, and nobody
persuaded you to become a Communist ; is that right ?
Mr. Chambers. That is true.
Mr. Hebert. Were you familiar Avith the American history and
American government during your elementary schooling?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. Did that impress you?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. You threw that over?
Mr. Chambers. I had reached the conclusion, particularly as a result
of the war, that the whole system which we now know as capitalist
societ}^ was in a very bad waj^ and something very drastic had to be
done to keep the whole thing together.
Mr. Hebert. You thought it was a new system?
Mr. Chambers. I thought a new system was evolving.
Mr. Hebert. Pursuing INfr. Rankin's question, in connection with
your statement that Conmiunists are disloyal per se, did you consider
yourself disloyal to your Government?
Mr. Chambp;rs. Certainly.
Mr. Hebert. You remained an American citizen and yet you joined
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Chambers. All Communists do that.
Mr. Hebert. You are an intelligent individual and well educated.
You said members of the Communist Party were disloyal. Did it ever
occur to you that you were disloyal to your own Government? Why
didn't you renounce your citizenship?
Mr. Chamber. No Communist would ever think of doing such a
thing.
Mr. Hebert. You knew you were being disloyal to the American
Government ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. You preferred to be disloyal to gain the end that you
thought you would make a better world ?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. Rankin. Were you a member of a church at that time?
Mi\ Chambers. No ; I was not.
Mr. Rankin. You never had been?
Mr. Chambers. I am now.
584 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Raniv:in. A inenibei- of a Christian chuirli now?
Ml'. Chajibers. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Before releasing the witness, the Chair would like to
announce that we have gotten in touch with Mr. Silverniaster, who
has responded to our subpena and is in the city. Now he claims he
has asthma, which he may or may not have, because I can't believe
these Communists, but since he claims he has an asthma attack, we
are going to defer hearing Mr. Silvermaster until 10:30 tomorrow
morning.
The Chair would like to say, Mr. Chambers, in conclusion, that we
sincerely appreciate the testimony you have given here today. It
is a tremendously difficult job to probe the thinking of the American
Communist mind, and it is from men like you, Mr. Budenz, women
like Miss Bentley, who have been down into the valley of the shadow
and seen the error of the Communist philosophy and had the courage
and good patriotism to renounce communism openly and to make
available to the law-enforcement and investigating agencies of the
(lovernment your information — it is because of that that slowly but
surely Ave are piecing together this pattern of the Communist con-
spiracy and helping to educate a rather gullible America to the fact
that it can ha})pen here and will happen here unless it alerts itself.
Mr. Chamhers. It is happening here.
Mr. MuNDT. It is happening here now, and this committee and the
FBI are at least two agencies of Government doing the best they can
at the moment to try to stop it.
We appreciate the fact that it is not a pleasant assignment for
you, sir. We thank you very much for coming here and cooperating
so wholeheartedly on this problem.
Mr. Chambers. Thank you.
Mr. Rankin. S])eaking for the minority, I want to say that the
gentleman has made a splendid witness, and I only regret that every
])atriotic American could not be here to hear his testimony.
Mr. Chambers. Thank you, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. I hope that the other Communists who hear your testi-
mony will change their minds and come here and share with us their
thinking and their ex])erience also.
Mr. Rankin. You failed to mention one fellow a while ago that
in my mind made one of the finest witnesses that ever came here, and
that was a Negro by the name of Nowell that told about being taken
to Moscow and learning how to blow up bridges, blow up waterworks
and powerhouses and carry on a revolution whenever the word came
down. He came here at the risk of his "own life, gentlemen.
Mr. Chambers. May I say the general name of that is "zersotzuf-
fusteil." That means an apparatus for destroying.
Mr. Rankin. He made a good witness.
Mr. Mundt. Thank you very much for your cooperation, Mr. Cham-
bers. The committee will recess until tomorrow morning at 10:30.
(Whereupon, at 12:15 p. m., the committee recessed until 10:30
a. m., Wednesday, August 4, 1948.)
i
HEARINGS EEGARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 4. 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Acttvities,
Washington,, D. C.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 : 30 a. m., in the
caucus room, Okl House Office Building, Hon. Karl E. Mundt
presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives Karl E. ISIundt, John
McDowell, Richard M. Nixon. John E. Rankin, J. Hardin Peterson,
and F. p]dward Hebert.
Staff members present: Robert E. Striplmg, chief investigator;
Louis J. Russell, William A. "VVHieeler, Robert B. Gaston, Donald
Appell, investigators; Benjamin Mandel, director of research; and
A. S. Poore, editor, for the committee.
Mr. Mundt. The committee will come to order, please.
Before proceeding with the hearing, the Chair would like to read
two telegrams which have been received this morning in response to
the statement made by the committee that we would be glad to hear
anybody whose names have been mentioned during these hearings,
that we would accord such persons the same opportunity to testify in
public and before the press as the hearings at which their names are
placed into the record.
We have received only 2 requests so far from the 25 or 30 people
whose names have been mentioned. I shall read these two telegrams
at this time.
The first is from Pittsburgh :
Charges by Miss Bentley apparently directed against us are shocking and
completely untrue. The woman is entirely unknown to us and in all fairness
we urgently request earliest possible opportunity to testify publicly and under
oath to the utter falsity of her charges. It is our earnest hope that as much
public attention will be given to clearing those that are innocent as has been
given to these sensational allegations.
Signed, "Dr. and Mrs. Bela Gold, 619 South Crest, Pittsburgh, Pa."
I think the testimony taken dealt with the doctor and Mrs. William
Gold, but they are probably the same people.
Mr. Stripling. William and Sonia Gold.
Mr, Mundt. We assume these are the same people and we will be
glad to hear them in i^ublic session as soon as Ave can arrange the
hearing.
The second telegram comes from New York :
My attention has been called by representatives of the press to statements
made about me before your committee this morning by one Whittaker Chambers.
I do not know Mr. Chambers and insofar as I am aware have never laid eyes
585
586 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
on him. There is no basis for the statements made about me to your committee.
I would appreciate it if you would make this telegram a part of your com-
mittee's record, and I would further appreciate the opportunity to appear before
jour committee to make these statements formally and under oath. I shall be
in Washington on Thursday and hope that that will be a convenient time from
the committee's point of view for me to appear.
Signed, "Alger Hiss."
The committee will hear Alger Hiss in public testimony tomorrow
morning at 10 : 30.
And now, Mr. Stripling, who is your first witness this morning?
Mr. Stripling. The first witness, Mr. Chairman, will be Mr. Nathan
Gregory Silvermaster. However, before proceeding I would like to
read a brief statement.
Mr. MuNDT. You may read it.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, Public Law 601 of the Seventy-ninth
Congress, second session, and House Resolution 5, of the Eightieth
Congress, provide the authority for the Committee on Un-American
Activities, United States House of Representatives.
Public Law 601 (sec. 121, subsec. (q) (2) ) states :
Committee on Un-American Activities as a whole or by subcommitteee is
authorized to make from time to time Investigations of (i) the extent, character,
and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States; (ii)
the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion ; and (iii) all other qnestions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in
any necessary remedial legislation.
Pursuant to this mandate the committee has been conducting an
investigation in the past several months into alleged Communist in-
filtration, of Communist agents, into the Federal Government and
tiie operation within the Government of certain persons who were
collecting information to be turned over to a foreign government.
The hearing this morning is for the purpose of pursuing this in-
vestigation. , Nathan Gregory Silvermaster, a former employee of
the Government, who was subpenaed to appear before the Committee
on Un-American Activities on May 25, 1948, is before the committee
this morning in connection with the above-mentioned inquiry. All
questions propounded to Mr. Silvermaster will be pertinent to the in-
quiry and he shall be required to answer them.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Stripling, what you are reading there is from
the rules of the House, is it not?
Mr. Stripling. That is Public Law 601, Mr. Rankin, adopted as
rules of the House beginning with the Eightieth Congress.
Mr. Rankin. That was my resolution to create this committee as
a standing committee of the House.
Mr. Stripling. I believe that is the language; yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Is Nathan Gregory Silvermaster in the room ?
Mr. Stripling. He is on the witness stand.
Will you stand and be sworn?
Mj-. MuNDT. Mr. Silvermaster, will you stand and be sworn, please?
i)o you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Silvermaster. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. You may be seated.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 587
TESTIMONY OF NATHAN GREGORY SILVERMASTER
Mr. SxRiPLiNd. Mr. Silvermaster, are you accompanied by counsel?
Mr. Silvermaster. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Will counsel please rise? AVould you identify
A'ourself first, please?
Mr. Reix. David Rein, 1105 K Street, Washington, D. C.
Mr. Striplixg. Do vou desire counsel, Mr. Silvermaster?
Mr. SiLATERMASTER. Yes, slr.
Mr. Striplixg. Mr. Rein is your counsel?
Mr. Silver:master. Mr. Rein is my counsel.
Mr. Striplixg. Is that agreeable with the chairman ?
]Mr. MuxDT. That is jierfectly all right.
Mr. SIL^T.RMASTER. Mr. Chairman, may I have your permission to
read the prei^ared statement before this committee?
Mr. MuxDT. You will sometime during the course of the hearing,
that is correct. We want to identify you first as the witness, but you
will be given a chance to read the statement.
Mr. Striplixg. Will you state your full name?
Mr. Silvermaster. My full name is Nathan Gregory Silvermaster.
Mr. Striplixg. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Sil%'ermaster. I was born in Odessa, Russia, in the year 1898.
Mr. Striplixg. What is your present address?
Mr. Sil^t:rmaster. My present address is Harvey Cedars, N. J.
Mr. Striplixg. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that we examine his state-
ment, that he submit his statement to the Chair at this time before
proceeding.
Mr. MtixDT. Very well.
(The statement was submitted and examined.)
Mr. JNliTXDT. The statement is perfectly pertinent to the inquiry
and may be read at the proper time.
Mr. Rankix. Let me call attention to a discrepancy there.
Mr. MuxDT. We will go into the discrepancies at a later time.
Mr. Striplixg. There is one portion I would like to call attention
to. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. MuxDT. I tliink we probably should take the statement as a
whole and not out of context. We had better wait until the proper
time.
Mr. Stripling. The witness indicates he is not going to testify, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. MuNDT. We will cross that bridge when we come to it. Pro-
ceed with the questioning. We will have the statement read at the
proper time.
Mr. Stripling. The chairman says you may read your statement at
the proper time and Ave will proceed with the questioning.
Mr. Silvermaster, you appeared before this committee on May 25,
]948, didyounot?
Mr. Silvermaster. That is correct.
^Ir. Stripling. In executive session.
Mr. Silatsrmaster. Executive session.
Mr. Stripling. At the conclusion of your testimony on that date
you were advised that the subpena which had been served upon you
calling for your appearance before the cemmittee was continued in
effect. Is that true?
588 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. That is true.
Mr. Stripling. You are appearing before the committee today by-
virtue of a telegram sent to you on August 2, 1948. which called for
your appearance before the committee on August 3, 1948?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. That is true.
Mr. Stripling. When did you first arrive in the United States, Mr.
Silvermaster ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER, III 1915.
Mr. Stripling. What was the port of entry ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Sail Francisco, Calif.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have a brother by the name of Arkady Sil-
vermaster ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Where does he reside ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Los Augeles.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have a sister by the name of Pauline Wogg?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Where does she reside at the present time ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Ill Sail Francisco.
Mr. Stripling. Are you married, Mr. Silvermaster?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I aiii married.
Mr. Stripling. What was your wife's maiden name ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. My wife's maiden name was Helen Petrova
Witte.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Silvermaster, would you furnish the commit-
tee with your record of employment since your arrival in the United
States, in chronological order, insofar as possible, to the best of your
recollection ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. May I read the statement at this point, Mr.
Chairman?
Mr. MuNnT. Not at this point. You may refer to any notes you
want to as far as answering that particular question is concerned.
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I give a very brief summary of my employment
record with the Government in the statement. If the committee
wishes, I can elaborate on my employment record in general more
Mr. Stripling. Mr- Chairman, perhaps if he will give his em-
ployment record with the Federal Government and limit it to that,
that will be satisfactory.
Mr. MuNDT. Limit your answer to the employment witli the Federal
Government.
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I began my employment with the Federal G(A'-
ernment in Aujjiist of 1985. I came to Washington to accept a posi-
tion with the Resettlement Administration, offered me by Dr. George
Mitchell, at that time Director of the Labor Division of the Resettle-
ment Administration. I was with the Resettlement Administration
in the capacity of labor economist from 1935 to around 1938, with
maybe some minor discrepancies as to dates. I do not recollect them,
but they will be close enough.
In 1938 or thereabouts, on the basis of a civil-service examination
at which I was one of the top candidates, I received employment with
the Maritime Labor Board and served as the chief economist for that
Board. In 1939 I transferred to the Farm Securitv Administration
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 589
to accept a position there as Director of the Labor Division of Farm
Security Achiiinistration, a position which I held from 1939 to 1944.
During this period for several months, between 1941 and 1942, 1 was
on the detail with the Board of Economic Warfare, where I helped to
or<ranize and to supervise the work of the Europe and Africa Division
of that organization.
I might mention that in the Farm Security Administration, Labor
Division, I was largely responsible for developing and organizing the
program for the migratory farm workers. That was the principal
work in Farm Security Administration.
During the war my principal effort there was in helping to solve
the problem of farm-labor transportation in order to overcome the
farm-labor shortages during that period.
In 1944 the work of the Labor Division of the Farm Security Ad-
ministration came near an end and I transferred to the Office of
Surplus Projierty, Consumer Goods Division, which at that time
was under the Procurement Division of the Treasury Department.
Soon after that, that Office of Surplus Property, Consumers Divi-
sion, was transferred from the Procurement Division of the Treasury
to the Commerce Division. There I held the post of chief economist
nnd Director of Market Research Division.
Later on this Office of Consumer Goods was transferred to the RFC
and still later to the War Assets Administration, where I was em-
ployed as Director of the Economic M-irket Research Division until
the time when I resigned my position with them in November, I believe
it was, of 1947.
That, in brief, is my employment record with the Government.
Mr. Strii'lixo. What have vou lieen doing since vou left the Gov-
ernment ?
Mr. SiLVKKMASTEK. Siucc I left the Government, for a while I did
nothing. Then I moved to Harvey Cedars, N. J., and have been
employed there, se]f-em])loyed, building houses.
Mr. Striplixo. Mr. Chairman, before proceeding any further, I
would like for the witness to read his statement.
Mr. ]\Ii"xi)T. Very well. Mr. Silvermaster, you-may read your state-
ment at this point.
Mr. Silvermaster. I shall read it in full.
Mr. MuxnT. You may read it in full without interruption.
Mr. SiEVER^i ASTER. Tluiuk you.
My name is Xathan Gregory Sjlvermaster and my present residence
is Harvey Cedars, N. J. I was born in Odessa, Russia, on November
27, 1898, and came to the United States in 1915. I was naturalized as
an American citizen in 1927.
I received the degrees of bachelor of arts from the University of
Washington in 1920 and doctor of jihilosophy (economics) from the
University of California in 1932. I was professor of economics at
St. Mary's (\)llege. Calif., from 1924 to 1930. In 1931 and 1932 I was
a member of the Governor's connnission on unemployment and later
was director of research and surA^eys of the California State Relief
Administration.
From 193;") to November 1940, I held various responsible positions
• with the Federal Government in the Resettlement Administration,
i Maritime Labor Board. Farm Security Administration, and Board of
Economic Warfare and tlie War Assets Administration.
590 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
In these agencies I helped establish a program of camps for migra-
tory farm workers and promoted fair-labor relations in the construc-
tion and maritime industries. During World War II, I directed
studies of the enemy's economic potential and helped cut the flow of
strategic materials to Axis countries.
I am proud that in all the positions which I have held in tlie Federal
Government I have fought consistently for the interest of the American
people as a whole and particularly of farm and industrial labor. I
am especially pi'oud that during the war I w^as able to strike effective
blows in the Government service at our Fascist enemies.
Because I have never attempted to conceal my strong advocacy of the
rights of the underprivileged and of all New Deal principles, I have-
been constantly harassed by groundless accusations of disloyalty. I
was under investigation during almost my entire 12 years of Govern-
ment service. I Avas cleared by various agencies, including the Chief
of the Secret Service and Secretary of War Patterson, among others.
I left Government service late in 1946 because the harassment con-
tinued. Since then I have been investigated by the FBI and have
been the subject of a year- long investigation by the grand jury in
New York.
Neither the FBI nor the New York grand jury have taken any
action against me, although they heard the same witnesses as this
committee has produced and, I am certain, thoroughly investigated
the charges made against me by Elizabeth Bentley.
The charges made by Miss I3entley are false and fantastic. I can
oidy conclude that she is a neurotic liar. I am and have been a loyal
American citizen and was a faithful Government employee. I am not
and never have been a spy or agent of any foreign government.
I consider the proceedings which have gone on before this com-
mittee as a continuation of the harassment w^iich has plagued me and
interfered with my work and livelihood for years. I consider them
to be motivated by political considerations on the eve of a Presidential
election and the necessity to conceal from the American people the
failure of Congress to act upon such matters as housing and inflation.
If I committed a cnme, I should be indicted and prosecuted in the
courts. Without such indictment and prosecution, my reputation
should not be smeared.
In view of the continuance of the investigation by the New York
grand jury and the fact that this committee has indicated that it
intends to call for still another investigation before a so-called blue-
ribbon grand jury in the District of Columbia, I must protect myself
against this diabolical conspiracy. Upon advice of my counsel, I shall
stand upon the constitutional right of every American citizen and shall
refuse to testify further on matters relating to Miss Bentley's charges
in the exercise of my constitutional privilege against self-incrimination
under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Silvermaster, in listing your Government serv-
ice, I didn't notice that you made any reference to the Bretton Woods
Conference. Did you attend the Bretton Woods Conference in any
capacity ?
Mr. Silvermaster. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. What was the
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 591
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I did not include this in my record because I
was not able to carry out the task that I was supposed to have done
there,
Mr. Stru'ling. What was the task you were supposed to have done I
Mr. Silvermaster. I went there upon the invitation of Mr. Harry D.
iVhite, who at that time was the Assistant Secretary of the Treasury,
to help him to translate any documents that he may have had to deal
with submitted to him by the Russians.
It so happened that when I got there I had a very severe attack of
asthma. I stayed there for 2 days and only 1 day of the Conference
and returned back to Washington.
Mr. Streplixg. Mr. Silvermaster, are you now or have you ever been
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Silver:\iaster. I refuse to answer this question on the grounds
which I have already stated.
Mr. MuxDT. Which grounds are those?
Mr. Silvermaster. On the ground that any statement I may make —
I refuse to answer the question on the ground that any answer I may
make to this question may tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Silvermaster, do you know Earl Browder?
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman^
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Stripling asked a question.
Mv. Rankin. I understand, but he refused to answer the question of
whether or not he is a Communist on the ground that his answer
might incriminate him, which would indicate that his answer would
be, if he told the truth, that he was a Communist.
Mr. MuNDT. Go ahead, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Sir. Silvermaster, do you know Earl Browder?
]\lr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the same
grounds.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Jacob N. Golos ?
Mr. jNIundt. What do you mean by "the same grounds"? Kindly
explain which grounds.
^Ir. SiLX'ERMASTER. Oil the ground that any answer I may give
before this committee to questions asked may be self -incriminating, on
the ground that
Mr. MuNDT. That is a constitutional defense. Proceed.
Mr. Silvermaster. The fifth amendment.
Mr. Mundt. If you are going to use the constitutional defense, spell
it out and don't just say "same grounds."
]\Ir. Stripling. Do you know Jacob Golos?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
]\Ir, IVIuNDT. I want you to explain the grounds each time you answer
the question.
Mv. SiLvERiM ASTER. Oil tlic grouiid that the answer to this question
may tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. Mundt. That is a satisfactory answer. Proceed, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Silvermaster, do you know Gerhart Eisler?
Mv. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may make to this question may be self-incriminating.
Mr. Mundt. Proceed, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Silvermaster. would you kindly turn around
and. Miss Bentle}^ would you please stand?
(Miss Bentley stands in audience.)
592 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
mg?
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Elizabeth T. Bentley, who is stand-
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I refuse to answer the question on tlie ground
that any answer I may give may be self-incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. You are aware, Mr. Silvermaster, that Miss Bentley
lias made very serious charges against you before this committee. You
refuse to answer whether you even know her; is that correct?
Mr. Silvermaster. That is correct, sir. I refuse to answer this
question on the grounds that any answer I may give to this question
may be self-incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. Do'you know Solomon Adler?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the same
grounds that any answer I may give to this question may be self-
incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I have a number of questions here
Mr. MuNDT. Proceed with your questions.
Mr. Stripling. I think if the record is made clear that when he says
"same grounds"' he means
Mr. MuNDT. I prefer to have him answer the question as the Chair
has indicated.
Mr. Stripling. Very well.
Do you know Lauchlin Currie?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may make to this question may tend to be self-
incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Norman Bursler?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may give to this question may tend to be self-
incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Alger Hiss ^
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may give to this question may be self-incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know" Frank V. Coe?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may give to the question may be self -incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. Edward J. Fitzgerald ?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answ^er I may give to the question may be self-incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. Harold Glasser?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may give to the question may be self -incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. SoniaGold?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may give to the question may be self -incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. William J. Gold?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may give may tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. Joseph B. Gregg — fi-r-e-g-g?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may give to the question may tend to be self-
incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. Victor Perlo?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that an}' answer I may give to the question may be self-incriminating.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 593
Mr. Snai'i.iXi;. Charles Kramer?
Mv. SiLVEK:yiASTER. I refuse to answer this question on the oround
that any answer I may irive to the question may tend to b3 self-
incriminatniir.
Mr. STRirLixG. Duncan C. Lee?
Ml-. S]l\kr:mastkr. I refuse to answer this question on the oround
that any answer I may jjive to the question may be self-incriminatinjji;.
Ml'. SrinrLixci. Harry MagdotJ'?
]Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may give to the question may be self-incriminating.
Mr. .Stru'lixo. William W. llemington?
Mr. SiLVERjiASTER. I am sorry to say I have to refuse to answer
this question on the ground that any answer I may give to the question
may tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. Striplixg. ^laurice Halperin?
^Iv. SiLVERMASTER. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may give to this question may be self-iiicriminating.
Mr. Stripling. Alex Koral ?
^Ir. SiLVERMASTER. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may give to the question may be self-incriminating.
>[r. Striplixg. Did von ever furnish anv documents from Govern-
ment files to Elizabeth T. B?utley ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I refuse to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may give to this question may tend to be self-in-
criminating.
■Mr. Ptriplixg. Did you have photographic equipment in the base-
ment of your home in Washington, D. C, for the purpose of photo-
gra'phing Government documents?
^Ir. SiLVERMAS'n:R. T refuse to answer on the ground that any answ^er
1 may give may be self-incriminating.
Mr. I\Idx'dt. It is very difficult to see how the answer "no"' would be
self-incriminating as to that question, but we will accept the consti-
tutional defense.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Mr. William Ullmann ?
]Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I kuow Mr. Ullmann.
Mr. Striplixg. How well do you know Mr .Ullmann?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Mr. Ullmannn has resided with me since 1937.
Mr. S'lRiPLTXG. Is Mr. ITUmann a member of the Communist Party?
]\Ir. SiLVTRMAi- Ti R. I ref use to answer this question on the ground
that any answer I may give may be self-incriminating.
Mr. Striplixg. JNIr. Chairman, it is evident that the witness does
not intend to answer any questions which involve the evidence which
has been presented to the committee. After the committee has com-
pleted its questions of the witness, I should like for him to step aside
and place other witnesses on the stand.
Mr. MuNDT. The chairman w'ill call on the members of the com-
mittee for questions. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. ]\IcDowELL. I have no questions.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Rankin.
Mr. Raxkix\ Ml". Silvermaster, you refuse to answer these ques-
tions on the ground that if you did answer them, it would incriminate
you. That is correct; is it?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I liave refused to answer these questions on
tliese grounds and explained the reason for taking this position in the
80408—48 7
594 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
statement ■which I made before this committee in my prepared state-
ment.
Mr. E.AXKIN. If you had committed no crime, your testimony would
not incriminate you. I have been a prosecuting attorney and I liave
never seen a man refuse to answer questions on the ground that they
would incriminate him except when he had committed a crime himself.
Mr. SiLM^RMASTFj!. I do uot loiow the legality of the situation, sir,
l)ut I do know that I have been under investigation for some alleged
crimes and these investigations have been going on for some time.
Mr. Rankin. You know the Communist Party is dedicated to the
overthrow of this Government; do you not?
Mv. SiLVERMASTER. I do uot kuow what the Communist Party is
dedicated — that the Communist Party is dedicated to the overthrow of
this Government.
Mr. Rankin. Weren't you a member of it?
]Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I have already stated I refuse to answer this
([uestion, sir.
Mr. Rankin. If you are not a member of the Communist Party, then'
3'our answer would not incriminate you. This seems to be a storm
cellar that some of j'ou witnesses ti'y to use to keep from getting your-
selves cliarged with perjury. If you were not a member of the Com-
nuniist Party, it would certainly not incriminate you to say "No."
Xow, why do you refuse to answer that question ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I liave already given my reasons in the prepared
statement.
Mr. Rankin. In other words, you are afraid that if you answer
"No," we will prove you were a member and then you would be subject
to indictment for perjury. That is my construction.
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Not uecessarily ; no.
Mr. Rankin. That is alL
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Nixon, any questions?
JNIr. Nixon. Yes, I have a cpiestion on your statement, Mr. Silver-
juaster. You stated in the third paragraph from the last as follows:
The charges made by Miss Bentley are false and fantastic. I can only conclude
that she is a neurotic liar.
Now, you have indicated in previous questions that you would not
iinswer any question concerning whether you knew Miss Bentley on
the grounds that they might incriminate you, but in your statemen.t
here you have made the charge that Miss Bentley's charges are false
and fantastic and that she is a neurotic liar. On what do j^ou base
this conclusion ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I base this conclusion, sir, on reading the testi-
mony that was presented before this committee by this said person.
Mr. Nixon. Wliat facts do you have which would contradict that
testimony and which would allow you to make the charge that she is a
neurotic liar?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I am under no obligation. I am not asked to
contradict the testimony. There was no testimony presented; there
were allegations made.
Mr. NixoN. On what facts do you base your charge that she is a
neurotic liar which would contradict those allegations?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. That is the impression that the statements made
concerning me made upon me.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 595
]\Ir. Nixox. You have made the coiichision in this j-tatenient that
i\Iiss Beiitley's charges are false and fantastic. Yon stated that out-
right, not as a supposition, but as a conclusion, and you stated that she
is a liar.
Now, I think that under the circumstances you shoidd indicate to
the committee in \yhat instances in Miss Bentley's testimony you con-
sider that she has made misstatements of fact and on what facts you
base this statement that she is a liar.
Mr. SiLVEKMASTEK. I luid the right to make the statement in the pre-
pared statement that I have made, and I shall reserve the right to
make further statements when any allegations she has made against
me are taken up in courts.
MV. Nixox. Mr. Silvermaster, Miss Bentley before this committee
cited certain facts concerning activities. You have stated that these
facts are false. You have the same right that she had to cite the facts
upon which you base the charge that her statements of facts are false.
"Will you indicate to the committee what facts in your knowledge
you have that would contradict the facts she has presented here in
her statement ''.
Mr. Silvermaster. I have stated my position in my prepared state-
ment. I refuse to answer questions pertaining to the charges made
against me.
JNIr. Xixc>x\ In other woi'ds, you have made the statentent that jMiss
Bentley 's statements ai'e false and yet you refuse to give any testimony
to indicate why they are false or in what
Mr. Silvermaster. I have stated the reasons, why I liave refused
to answer questions.
Mr. Nixox. Don't you fear that by making the statement as you have
in vour statement that Miss Bentley's charges are false that that mioht
mcrnnmate you 5
Mr. Silvermaster. No.
Mr. Nixox. You just a moment ago refused to answer any questions
concerning your activities with Miss Bentley. Now. either you knoAv
Miss Bentley or you don't; either you know these facts are true or
you don't.
You have indicated in your statement these facts are false, wliir-h
Avould indicate you have knowledge concerning Miss Bentley. Do
you want to retract the statement that her statements are false, or do
you want to state the facts?
Mr. Silvermaster. I refuse to answer tlie question on the ground
that any statement I may make at this time may tend to be self-
incriminating because of the statement I have given in my prepai'ed
statement. This whole thing has been under investigation.
Mr. Striplixg. INIr. Nixon, in connection with your statement, I
should like to point out that Mr. Silvermaster was a Avitness before
our committee on May 25, at which time we did not know Miss Bent-
ley. had never heard of Miss Bentley. and he gave the same ansAvers
on that date to these questions as to whether or not he Avas a member
of the Communist Party and did he know this person and that person.
That was before Miss Bentley testified and before we even knew
Miss Bentley.
Mr. Nixox^ Mr. Chairman, in this connection I think that the state-
ment of the witness to the effect that Miss Bentley's charges are false
596 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
and fantastic and that she is a liar should be stricken from the record.
I am not going to move that they be stricken from the record, for I
feel that under the circumstances the record will speak for itself, but
I think it is perfectly apparent that this witness is making this
charge — in other words, is willing to testify only on those facts that
would serve his own purposes and that his refusal to testify concern-
ing Miss Bent ley on other facts is because he realizes those would
incriminate him in fact.
I have no further questions.
Mr. Rankin. I would not agree to have any of these statements
stricken from the record because if the Department of Justice does its
duty, it will file a petition to cancel his citizenship and deport him
from this country. A man who comes here and refuses to answer
whether or not he is a Communist or whether or not he knows these
Communists Avho are plotting the overthrow of this Government has
no right to crawl into a storm cellar like that and ask the protection
of the Government of the United States.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Peterson, do you have any questions?
Mr. Peterson. No questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Hebert, any questions?
Mr. Hebert. Yes.
Mr. Silvermaster, what year did you come to this country ?
Mr. Silvermaster. 1915.
Mr. Hebert. How old were you at that time ?
Mr. Silvermaster. Sixteen.
Mr. Hebert. Why did you come to this country ? What prompted
you to come to this country ?
Mr. Silvermaster. I came to this country in order to get an educa-
tion and because I wanted to become an American citizen.
Mr. Hebert. There were no educational facilities available in
liussia ?
Mr. Silvermaster. There were.
Mr. Hebert. Why couldn't you get your education in Russia?
Mr. Silvermaster. Because my secondary education I received in
an English school and because I did not want to live in Russia. I
wanted to come to the United States.
Mr. Hebert. Why didn't you want to live in Russia ?
Mr. Sil\termaster. Because I disliked the form of government
they had there.
Mr. Hebert. What form of government did they have at that time?
Mr. Silvermaster. They had an absolutist czarist government.
Mr. Hebert. In 1915?
Mr. Silvermaster. 1915.
Mr. Hebert. They had a czaristic government at that time, you
c
%
Mr. kSiLVERMASTER. That is right.
Mr. Hebert. Would you have remained there if Lenin had been in
power and the Communists had taken over?
Mr. Silveriniaster. That is a question that I cannot answer. I had
no idea at the time wdiat government they would have in the future
•ind whether or not I would like or would not like that kind of govern-
ment. I had no basis.
Mr. Hebert. Do you like that form of government? Will that
incriminate you to tell me that?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 597
Mr. SiLVEHMASTEH. It wouldirt incriminate nie.
Mr. Hebert. Would you tell us whether you like the communistic
form of government?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. It is the kind of government they want to have.
]\Ir. Hebert. I asked you if you like the communistic form of
government.
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I would like the kind of government we have
here.
Mr. Hebert. I didn't ask you that. Will it incriminate you to tell
me and tell this committee?
Ml". SiLVERMASTER. No.
Mr. Hebert. Yes or no — do you like the communistic form of gov-
ernment or don't you I
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I (lou't.
Mr. Hebert. You don't.
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. That is riglit.
jMr. Hebert. Why don't you ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. It is a pretty long story, I suppose.
Mr. Hebert. Let's hear it.
Mr. SiLVER:srASTER. I haven't had an opportunity to live under a
communistic form of government, and it is very difficult for any indi-
vidual to say whether or not he would like a particular government
if he liasn't had any experience with it.
]Mr. Hebert. Do you like what it stands for? You know what it
stands for. You are an educated man.
Mr. Sil^t:rmaster. It all depends on what you mean by "what it
stands for." Every government stands for many things.
Mr. HiiBERT. I will tell you my appreciation of them and see if you
agree.
My appreciation of what the Communists stand for is the destruc-
tion of the free enterprise system of government, the destruction of
caj)italism, the capitalistic system, and the destruction of all religion
and churches, and the establishment of a complete totalitarian form
of government in Avhich the dignity of the individual is violated and
under which no man has an opportunity to advance himself on his own
and in which everything that is repulsive and indignant to what we
in America believe.
That is my conception and appreciation of communism, and I think
it is the general conception of the Communist form of government.
Do you believe in it?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. No, I dou't. My whole attitude to this question
would be somewhat different from yours for the simple reason
i\Ir. Hebert. I want to know what you think about it.
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I ouly liavc in mind one kind of government, and
that is the kind of government they have in Russia today. That kind
of g vernnent you h:ive in Russia was born as the result of certain
events. That kind of government in Russia today was born as the
result of certain events. These events pertain only to that particu-
lar country and that kind of government came into being in response
to the conditions there and developments there.
Now, whether the answer that the present Government gave to the
problem of the Russian peo])le is good or bad is something I am not
in a position to evaluate. I am not living there, but I want to point
598 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
out, the point I want to make is that the Government they have there
was a result of certain historic conditions, which historic conditions
did not obtain in this country.
I know, for example, that there has been terrific dissatisfaction
among the common people of Russia with the czarist regime. There
has been starvation, there has been oppression, and as a result of these
conditions certain things happened which produced the revolution
which led to the establishment of a certain type of govermnent, which
may or may not have solved the problems.
Mr, Hebert. You say you left Russia in 1915. Russia was at war.
Why weren't }■ ou in the army ?
Mr. SiLVER3iASTEK. I was too youug to be in the army at the time.
As a matter of fact, I was in China at the time, in Shanghai.
Mr. Hebert. You weren't in Russia?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. In 1915.
Mr. Hebert. You say when you left in 1915 ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. No ; 1 wasu't in Russia proper, no. I was at-
tending school. My parents were living at the time in the Far East.
]\Ir. Hebert. How long had you been in China at that time?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. My folks from the year 190G to the time I left
lived in the Far East — in the Russian part of the Far East, Man-
churia, and in 1912 I was sent to school in Shanghai, to an English
school.
Mr. Hebert. When?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. 1912. Froui 1912 to 1915, but every summer 1
would go back home for vacation, so that my legal residence was
Harbin, which at that time was under Russian domination; so I re-
ferred to it as part of Russia. Actually I sailed from Shanghai and
not Harbin because Harbin is not a port.
Mr. Hebert. During this time did you participate in any revolu-
tionary movements in Russia?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I was toD youug to participate in any movement.
Mr. Hebert. In Russia — when did you become an American citizen ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Ill 1927.
Mr. Hebert. Where?
Mr. Silverjiaster. San Francisco.
Mr. Hebert. You had been here 12 years at that time ?
Mr. Silvj:rim aster. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. And you say that you did not participate in any
movement heie in this country of communistic leaning?
Mr. Silver:master. I didn't say that.
Mr. Hei'.ert. What did you say?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. You asked me wuth reference to the things that
I had done in Russia.
Mr. Hebert. I am asking you about America.
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. If I participated — I have already given you
the answer. I will refuse to answer any question of this or similar
character.
Mr. Hebert. In other words, you are perfectly willing to discuss
before this committee any subject matter that might not incriminate
you. but you refuse to discuss anything which will tend to incriminate
you?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 599
Mr. SiLVERMAs'iER. I wiU refui^e to discuss anytliinjj;- which iiiay have
a bearinoon the things that have been under investigation by the grand
jury and the FBI concerning myself.
^fr. Herert. ^Vhv did vou refuse to testify before the committee
Avhen you first appeared as directed by Mr. Stripling? You were not
before the grand jury at that time, were you ?
^Ir. SiLVERMASTER. For the same reasons.
Mr. Hebert. You were not before the grand jury at that time?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. ]My case was before the grand jury.
Mr. Hebert. It was before the grand jury?
]Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Certainly.
Mr. Hebert. And the grand jury is still meeting on your case,
isn't it?
IVIr. SiLVERMASTER. As far as I know.
jNIr. Hebert. As far as you know, then, it is not a closed case?
iVIr. SiLVERMASTER. That is right, sir.
Mr. Hebert. And the mere fact tliat you have not been indicted
as of this time does not indicate you are innocent of the charges made
by Miss Bentley ; is that correct ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. That is all.
Mr. MuNDT. ]\Ir. Silvermaster, I have just a question or two.
Are you a lawyer ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. No, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. You are not an attorney?
Mv. SiLVERMASTER. No, Sir.
Mr. INIuNDT. I am not a lawyer either, so I w^onder if as one layman
to another you could explain to me how it would be self -incriminat-
ing for you to tell this committee that you did not have photographic
apparatus in your basement in which Government documents were
photogra])hed for delivery to a Russian spy ring. If the answer were
no to that question, how would it incriminate you?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I dou't kuow law.
]Mr. jMuxdt. I don't know law either.
Mv. SiLVERMASTER. I liave vei'y little understanding about it, but
I understand the chai'ges, allegations, or charges, under which the
grand jury was deliberating involve conspiracy matters and that con-
spiracy matters are so broad that anything may be included in it,
any fact that you may know or not know about may somehow^
Mr. MuxDT. Just between a couple of fellows wdio are not law-
yers, how would it be incriminating to a man who had been charged
with having photographic apparatus in his basement and working
through the night taking pictures of Government documents to trans-
mit to New York? It is asked whether you have that photographic
apparatus in your basement and you say, "I don't dare tell you because
it might incriminate me." How would it incriminate you if you said,
'T don't have anvthing like that, of course not"? How would that
incriminate you ?
Mr. SiL^T2RMASTER. Sir, the FBI have investigated me. They have
come to my house and they have ask.ed me a lot of questions and I
hav^^ answered their questions in full. lender normal circumstances
that was the proper thing to do. I haven't hesitated for a moment to
600 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
answer them, all the questions that were asked me. But soon after
that somethin^i else hapj^ened.
Mr. MuNDT. What happened then ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I mean
Mr. MuNDT. The grand jury?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. The whole thin<r began to assume the character
of a conspiracy against me almost to the point of looking like a pos-
sible frame-up, for all I knew.
Mr. MuNDT. A conspiracy by the FBI?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I dou't kuoAV by whom. I don't say that.
Mr. Mltndt. Not by us; not a conspiracy by this committee?
Mr. SiLVER^kiASTER. Of coiu'se not.
Mr. Mundt. When you appeared before the grand jury up in New
York. I presume they asked you questions, and T wondered if you
used your constitutional defense there to say, 'T won't give you any
information because it might incriminate me."
]Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I rcfuse to answer this question on the ground
that anything I may sav may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Mundt. It wouldn't be very informative to the grand jury if
that is all you told them,
Mr. McDowell. IVIr. Chairman.
Mv. ;Mundt. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDow'ELL. Mr. Silvermaster, you w^ent to Bretton Woods to
act as an interpreter and you were overcome with asthma and didn't
act ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. That is right.
Mr. McDowell. Were there no official interpreters there at Bretton
Woods?
Mr. SiLATRMASTER. There probably were.
Mr. McDowell. Were you an official interpreter?
Mr. Sil\t!:rmaster. No ; I was not an official interpreter.
jNIr. McDowtsll. Why would Mr. White decide to have some person
in excess of the ordinary number of interpreters?
Mr. Siiat'^rmaster. As I understood it at the time, the Treasury did
n.ot have an interpreter.
Mr. McDowell. The Treasury?
Mr. Sil\t.rmaster. The Treasury Department. The interpreter was
provided by the State Department.
Mr. McDow^ELL. And they decided to take you ?
Ml'. SiLVERMASTER. They decided to take me and not only because of
my knowledge of Russian, but also because of my knowdedge of eco-
nomic matters. I am an economist.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Silvermaster, would it offend your constitu-
tional sensibilities if I inquired if you had any knowledge of photo-
gra])hic equipment ? Do you know how to operate it ? Do you have
any skill in it?
iVIr. SiLVERMASTER. I refuse to answer the question.
Ml. McDowell. That is all.
Mr. Mundt. IVIr. Silvermaster, I have one more question which I
don't think you will find embarrassing. It is a matter of straightening
out the record.
When you talked to the FBI and the FBI talked with you, you were
not then testifvinc; under oath. Is that correct?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 601
Mr. SiLVKH.AiAsTKK. I beg your pardon?
Mr. MuNDT. When yon testified to the FBI and talked to the FBI,
jon were not testifying nnder oath?
INfr. SiiA'KioiAsTEK. That is riglit.
Mr. MuNDT. You were not then testifying under oatli before the
FBI ?
Ml'. Sii.vnuMAs'i'KK. Xo, sir.
]\Ir. 8tkiplix(j. I have one more question.
In your statement. ]Mr. Silvermaster, you say:
I was cleared b.v various agencies, iuclnding the Chief of the Secret Service
and Secretary of War I'atterson, among otliers.
Why was Secretary Patterson called upon to clear yon. Were you
ever assigned to the War Department?
Mr. Silvp:rmastkk. I would be very glad to submit to this commit-
tee this particular case and the letter from Secretary Patterson con-
cerning the case.
Mr. Striplixg. Do you have that letter with you?
Mr. Silvermaster. I have that letter.
Mr. Hebert. That won't tend to self-incriniinate you, will it — the
submission of Mr. Patterson's letter ?
Mr. Silvermaster. I am submitting the letter, sir.
Mr. Hebert. That won't tend to self-incriminate you, will it?
Mr. Silver^iaster. This question is a matter of job record.
^Ir. Hebert. Tliat letter clears you and won't tend to incriminate
you, will it?
Mr. Silvermaster. That is a job record, sir.
Mr. Hebert. That will clear you and won't incriminate you. Is that
why you answer it ?
Mr. Silvermaster. I have not refused to answer anything on the
job record.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, we have been endeavoring to get this
letter for a long time.
Mr. Silvermaster, will you tell me whether Mr. Lauchlin Currie
went to see Mr. Patterson in your behalf ?
Mr. Silvermaster. Yes. As a matter of fact, the case called for
action on my i)art to get justice, and I have asked people to request
that Secretary Patterson look into accusations made against me per-
sonally because those accusations were false, untruthful, and I didn't
want my name to be besmirched. I have every right to ask whoever
I could for this assistance. I didn't ask to be cleared. I only asked
that someone with an unbiased mind look into my record and develop
whether or not the accusations made against me at that time were or
were not true.
Mr. Stripling. You w^ere assigned to the Board of Economic War-
fare?
Mr. Sila'ermaster. Yes, sir.
]\Ir. Stripling. And on the pay roll of the Farm Security Admin-
istration ?
Mr. Silvermaster. Yes. sir.
jSIr. Stripling. Did Military Intelligence make an objection to your
employment with the Board of Economic AVarfare?
Mr. Silvermaster. I think it was Xaval Intelligence.
]\Ir., Stripling. They asked your removal?
602 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. They asked for my removal.
Mr. Stripling. You tlien went to Laiichlin Ciirrie?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. They wrote a letter — and I have the correspond-
ence of this letter. They wrote a letter concernino- me which indicates
that I should not be — that I am a Connnunist — that I am this or that —
and that, therefore, I should not be entrusted with work with the
Board of Economic Warfare.
Obviously, a'letter of this sort was an insultin<T letter to me. It was
a smear letter, it was not justified, and I asked for an investigation.
I asked the Board of Economic Warfare to take this matter up with
the AVar Department. The intelligence communication was trans-
ferred to the Board of Economic Warfare by the War Department,
by Xaval Intelligence.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Stone, of the Board of Economic Warfare, gave
3'()u a copy of the Xaval Intelligence protest against y<ni '.
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. He gave it to you ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. You answered that report yourself?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I auswcrcd the report.
Mr. Stripling. You yourself answered it?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. Where was your report submitted?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Submitted to Mr. Stone.
Mr. Stripling. What did ]Mr. Stone do with it ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I dou't kuow. I dou't really recall now.
Mr. Stripling. What is Mr. Stone's first name ? '
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I dou't recall now. I believe William.
Mr. Stripling. What was his position?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. He was Assistant Administrator of the Board
of Economic Warfare, who had jurisdiction over the Division I was
connected Avith.
Mr. Stripling. William T. Stone?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I aiii not sure ; I believe so.
Mr. Stripling. Did Secretary Patterson ever ask you whether oi-
not you were a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. No ; he did not.
Mr. Stripling. Did Lauchlin Currie ask j'ou whether you were a
member of the Communist Party?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. No ; he did not.
Mr. McDowell. You went to Mr. Currie to get him to write a letter
to Secretary Patterson?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. I beg your pardon?
Mr. McDowell. You went to Mr. Currie to get him to write a letter
to Secretary Patterson?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. No. All I did was to ask Mr. Currie if he could
get somebody in the War Department to make an unbiased investiga-
tion of the accusations made against me.
Mr, McDowell. Did you ao to anybodv else ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Ycs ; I have asked Mr. Baldwin.
Mr. McDowell. Who?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Mr. Baldwin, of the Farm Security Adminis-
tiation.
COMMUNIST i:SPIONAGE 603
Uv. McDowell. Would that be C. B. Baldwin?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. C. B. Baldwiii. He was my boss in the Farm
Security Administration.
Mr. Stripling. These gentlemen, I presume, were both your friends?
jVIr. SiLyERMASTER. I had known them both.
Mr. ]\IcDowELL. How long?
Mr. SiLyERMASTER. For quite a long while.
INIr. McDowell. How long haye you known Mr. Currie ?
Mr. SiLyERMASTER. I liaye known Mr. Currie since, I belieye, 1938
or 1939.
Mr. jSIcDowell. I haye no further questions.
Mr. Striplixo. Mr. JNIcDowell, the witness preyiously refused to
answer that he knew Mr. Currie, on the ground that it might in-
criminate him.
Mr, SiLyERMASTER. I haye answered this because it had a direct
relationship to my job record.
Mr. Rankin. I haye a question or two. Who did you say issued
that recommendation that 3'ou be remoyed?
Mr. SiLyERMASTER. I bcg your pardon?
Mr. Rankin. Who did you say issued that recommendation that
you be remoyed ?
INIr. SiLyERMASTER. The recommendation, as I recall it. for remoyal
came from Nayal Intelligence.
Mr. Rankin. And gaye as its reasons that you were a Communist?
Mr. SiLyERMASTER. It didn't giye reasons. It merely gaye alle-
gations.
Mr. Rankin. Allegations that you were a Communi.st ?
(Mr. Silyermaster nods head affirmatiyely.)
Mr. Rankin. And that yo>i were a member of the Communist
Party — did it make that allegation?
Mr. SiLyERMASTER. I dou't haye the letter before me.
Mr. Rankin. You said in response to Mr. Stripling's question that
(he statements made in that recommendation were false, didn't you?
Mr, SiLyERMASTER. In that letter ; yes.
Mr. Rankin. In other words, when that letter accused you of being
a Communist — is that what you haye reference to ?
Mr. SiLyERMASTER. That is right.
Mr. Rankin. Why should you refuse to answer the question now
whether or not you are a member of the Communist Part}"?
Mr. SiLyERMASTER. Because I refuse. There are different circum-
stances.
Mr. Rankin. I don't think it is a different subject. I think it is
a different storm cellar.
Mr. MuNDT. Any other questions?
Mr. Peterson. You stated that they furnished you a copy of the
lettP'' that Xayal Intelligence had written to them.
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. That is right, sir.
Mr. Peterson. Who furnished you a coj^y of that letter?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Mv. Stoue.
Mr. Peterson. Mr. Stone gaye you a co|)y of the letter ?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. Of the charges against me; yes.
j\Ir. MuNDT. Haye we any further identification of ]Mr. Stone?
604 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. STKirLixG, William T. Stone, Assistant Administrator of the
Board of Economic Warfare. Do yon know if he is in the State De-
partment now?
Mr. SiLVERMASTEK. I don't know.
Mr. MuxDT. Is he in the Government now ?
Mr. Stripling. I think he is with the Voice of America.
Mr. Nixon. Will 3'on listen to this qnestion carefully, because it
bears upon the accnracy of yonr statements? Yon said the charges
made by Miss Bentley are false. One of the charges made by Miss
Bentley was that yon maintained a photograj^hic laboratory in your
home. Do you mean by yonr statement that that charge is false?
Mr. SiLVERMASTER. 1 rcfuse to answer, sir, this question, on the
ground that I have stated in m}' prepared statement and for the reasons
I have given in my prepared statement.
Mr. Nixon. I think the record on tliat point speaks for itself.
Mr. Stripling. jNIay I ask the witness to step aside?
Mr. MuNDT. Before the witness steps aside, the chairman wants to
make a short statement to the witness.
You are a man of considerable intelligence and a long educational
background. I think you must realize that coming before this com-
mittee, refusing to answer specific questions such as this one about the
photographic apparatus in your basement, which can either be or not
be substantiated by the testimony of witnesses — refusing to answer
that, which plays a key part in this whole hearing, on the ground that
il is self-incriminating, and refusing to do so because you are testify-
ing before us under oath, where all the laws of perjury apply, and
saying you have talked freely with the FBI, where there is no law of
})erjury applying — that puts you in a very bad light ; and I wonder
if, in consideration of those facts, you would not like to tell us the
answer to these direct questions — not whether or not you are a Com-
munist but wdiether or not you did maintain in your basement photo-
graphic apparatus for the purpose of photographing Government
documents.
Would you like to reconsider your answer, Mr. Silvermaster ?
Mr. Silvermaster. My answer will be the same as I have given in
my prepared statement.
Mr. MuNDT. Very well ; you may step aside.
Call the next witness.
Mr. Stripling. I will call Miss Elizabeth T. Bentley.
Mr. Mundt. Miss Bentley, will you stand and be sworn? Raise
your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
tlie truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Miss Bentley. I do.
Mr. MuNDT. You may be seated.
TESTIMONY OF MISS ELIZABETH T. BENTLEY
Mr. Stripling. Miss Bentley, you have previously been identified
before this committee.
In the testimony w^hich you gave last Saturday, you stated that an
individual by the name of N. Gregory Silvermaster was the head
of a group within the Government that was collecting information
[
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 605
Avhich tliey turned over to you, and you in turn turned over to Mr.
Jacob N. Golos, and which information eventually was turned over
to an agent of the Soviet (Tovernnient.
Is the person who just left the witness stand the N. Gregory Silver-
master that you knew?
Miss Bentley. Yes; that is correct.
Mr. Stripltxo. At the hearing the other day the committee did not
have sufficient time to go into detailed associations in connection with
yourself and Mr. Silvermaster. Would you tell the committee now
how well you knew Mr. Silvermaster, how many times you saw him,
whether or not you ever were a guest in his home ?
Miss Benti.ey. 1 originally met Mr. Silvermaster and Mrs. Silver-
master in July of 1941, and I came to Washington approximately
every 2 weeks from that date on until the end of September 1944;
so that I don't know exactly how many times that makes.
Added to which, whenever Mr. Silvermaster or Mrs, Silvermaster
came to New York, which may have been three or four times a year,
I also saw theui in New York.
Mr. Striplixg. You came to Mr. Silvermaster's home for the pur-
pose of collecting information?
Miss Bextley. That is correct.
Mr. Stkii'lix(}. Which he had obtained from these people in the
Government ?
Miss Bextley. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Striplixg. You also obtained from him certain Communist
Party dues?
Miss Bextley. That is correct.
Mr. Striplixg. That you transmitted to New York?
Miss Bex^tley. Yes.
Mr. Striplixg. Did you ever spend the night in INIr. Silvermaster's
home ?
Miss Bextley. Yes; I think three or four or five times, when it was
quite late, when I finished talking to them, and it was impossible to
get a taxicab or bus back to town, I stayed overnight in their house;
yes.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Mrs. Silvermaster well ?
Miss Bextley. Very well.
Mr. Striplixg. Is Mrs. Silvermaster a Communist ?
Miss Bextley. Yes.
Mr. Striplixg. Do you know Mr. Ullmann?
Miss Bextley. Yes; I do. He was residing with the Silvermas-
ters at the time I met him.
Mr. Striplixg. That was William L. Ullmann?
Miss Bextley. That is William Ludwig Ullman.
Mr. Striplixg. Was his nickname "Lud"?
Miss Bextley. Yes. I always called him "Lud'"; and I called Mr.
Silvermaster, ' Greg"'; and Mrs. Silvermaster, Helen.
Mr. Striplixg. Could you give the committee some details regarding
the photographic equipment maintained in Mr. Silvermasters base'^
ment and whether or not ^Ir. Ullmann had anything to do with it?
Miss I^extley. Yes. They had set up in the basement a home-made
apparatus for photographing documents, for microfilming documents,
in their cellar, which had ])een. I understand, put together by Mr.
606 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Ullmaiiii, who is quite clever as a mechanic, and had a rack on the top
which the camera was stuck into and pointed down, and they had
a rack in tlie bottom where the papers were put in.
Mr, MuNDT. You actually saw" them using this apparatus on Gov-
ernment documents, did you ?
Miss Bentlet. Yes ; I did.
Mr. MuNDT. And Mr. Ullmann has seen it, has he?
Miss Bentley. Mr. Ullmann was the principal photographer. It
was he who learned photography when it became necessary to photo-
graph documents, and it was he who operated it, except for those
times when he Avas either away or when there was too much to be clone
by one person alone.
At that time ]Mrs. Silvermaster also learned photography and helped
him with it.
ISlv. MuxDT. Ydu have seen Mr. Silvermaster in the basement of
his home watching this apparatus photographing Government docu-
ments ?
Miss Bentley. Not Mr. Silvermaster. I was in the basement with
Mr. Ullmann and Mrs. Silvermaster while Mr. Silvermaster was up-
stairs. It was not thought wise for everyone to be in the basement
sinniltaneously.
Mr. STKirLiNG. When Mr. Ullmann's name was mentioned Saturday,
we did not have his employment record. I would like to put it in
the record.
Mr. MuNDT. You maj^ read it.
Mr. Stkiplixg. William L. Ullmann, Government Form 57, executed
by the above individual on April 4, 1946, reflects that he was born
in Springfield, Mo., on August 14, 1908, that the form was executed
by William Ullmann upon his return from the United States Army
reauesting employment in the United States Treasury Department.
He resigned from his position in the Division of Monetary Research
as of']\Iarch 21. 1947, to enter private industry. The records indicate
his address as 5515 Thirtieth Street NW., telephone Emerson 6720.
This, Mr. Chairman, is the same address as Nathan Gregory Silver-
master.
He listed his immediate supervisor as Frank V. Coe, Director of
Monetary Research. His references on the aforementioned form were
Mr. Harry W. Blair, lawyer. Tower Building, Washington, D. C. ;
Lauchlin Currie, International Development Co., 19 Rector Street^
New York; Henrietta Klotz, 285 Madison Avenue, New York City,
assistant to the ex-Secretary of the Treasury, Mr. Morgenthau. Mrs.
Klotz was Mr. Morgenthau's personal secretai-y.
His employment record is as follows : July 1932, to August 1934,
Ullmann Bros., real estate business, Springfield, Mo.; September
1934 until January 1935, salesman for ]\Iacy Bros., New York City,
receiving $15 a week; Januar}^ 1935 to March 1935, Central Tennis
Supplies, New York City, owner of business; April 1935 to June
1935, NRA Consumers Advisory Board, Washington, D. C, receiving
$2,000 per year, inunediate supervisor, Mrs. Emily Newell Blair;
July 1935 to February 1939, Farm Security Administration, starting
salary $2,000 per annum, ending salary $3,800 per year; February
1939 to October 1942, Treasury Department, Division of Monetary
Research, Washington, D. C, immediate supervisor, Harry D. White;
COMMUNIST ESPIOiSrAGE 607
October 194:2 to October 1945, United States Army, dischtir<;cd us !i
major, serial number 0-r>79514.
Education: Harvard University, Cambi'idge, Mass., Octol)er \^-2()
(o June 1927: Diiiry Colleoe. Springfield, Mo., October 1927 to Jur.e
1980; Harvard School of Business Administration, ()ctcb3r 1980 to
June 1932.
Mr. MuNDi\ Mr. Stripling, do you have any papers there show-
ing the references that Mr. Silvermaster had when he secured employ-
ment with the Government ?
Mr. Stripling. Mv. Chairman, we have endeavored to secure his
file from the Archives but it is not there. We are trying to locate it.
Mr. MuxDT. You mean the file has disappeared ?
Mr. STiurLiNG. I beg your pardon?
* ]\Ir. MuNDT. You say the file has disappeared ?
]Mr. Stripling. That is true ; yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Disapi^eared from where?
Mr. Stripling. Archives.
Mr. McDowell. Whose archives?
Mr. Stripling. National Archives.
Mr. MuNDT. Where it should properly be kept ?
]VIr. JNIcDowELL. Oh !
Mr. MuNDT. What defense does the Archivist give his loss of the
files of Mr. Silvermaster?
Mr. Stripling. Well, they advised Mr, Wheeler, the investigator
who went to the Archives, that they were the custodians of all the
files of the Board of Economic Warfare and FEA, but that Mr. Silver-
master's file was not there. Other individuals who were employed in
the agency, their files were there, but not Mr. Silvermaster's.
Mr. MuNDT. Will you keep our investigators at work until they
locate the files or the man who let them get away ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes, sir. Further information in the file of Mr.
Ullmann refiects that Thomas E. Blaisdell, Jr., Securities and Ex-
change Commission, was interviewed January 12, 1939, in a routine
investigation conducted by the Treasury Department, and stated:
"I don't know Mv. Ullmann. My impression is he is a forward-
looking and fairly able person."
That is all we have on Mr. Ullmann.
Mr. Nixon. That state'ment was by whom?
Mr. Stripling. Thomas E. Blaisclell, Jr.
Mr. Nixon. In regard to Mr. Ullmann?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Proceed, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. When did you first meet Mr. Ullmann ?
Miss Bentley. I met Mr. Ullmann, I think, toward the end of July
1941, shortly after I made the acquaintance——
Mr. Stripling. What did you learn of his background?
Miss Bentley. I had learned that he came from an upper-class
family out in, I believe, Missouri; that he had never had a tre-
mendously big position until he met the Silvermasters, but he liad had
various positions — I understand he was a tennis professional and gave
tennis lessons at one time and had other sorts of jobs until he came
lo Washington, and I believe the Silvermasters met him when he was
employed by the Treasury.
608 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Their description of his job at that time was that of a clerk. I don't
Ifnow if that was the tj'pe of work he did.
The Silvermasters entertained a great deal and frequently had
parties at their home, and I understand that someone, I don't know
who, brought Mr, Ulhnann to one of these parties. He made the ac-
quaintance of the Silvermasters. They discovered that he was a very
able person, very intelligent person, in spite of the position that he
was then holding in the Treasury, and they thought that he would be
a very good prospect for pushing on up in the Government where he
could be useful.
Therefore, according to them, anyway, through their efforts Mr.
UUmann was pushed from job to job until he got into some quite
important ones.
He also came to live with them as a boarder and had a room witlv
them, and I believe ate most of his meals with them.
Mr. Stripling. Miss Bentley, in your discussions with Mr. and
Mrs. Silvermaster, did either one of them ever tell you that they were
acquainted with Earl Browder?
Miss Bentley. Yes; they did.
Mr. Stripling. Did they tell you the circumstances under which
they met Earl Browder?
Miss Bentley. I don't know exactly when Gregory Silvermaster
met Mv. Browder, but I know when ^Irs. Silvermaster did. I believe
that Mr. Silvermaster had known Earl Browder prior to the general
strike in San Francisco in the early thirties. Was that 1933 or 1934,
along in there? Eai'l Browder had come to San Francisco because of
the strike, and tlie vigilantes at that time were looking for him in a
house-to-house search, and Mr. Browder came to the Silvermasters'
home, where he w'as greeted by Mrs. Silvermaster, who hadn't met
him, and he asked for sanctuary.
Slie didn't recognize him and was frightened and refused to let
him in until her husband had returned home and identified him. Then
they hid him out in tlieir house for several days while the vigilantes
were looking for him.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Avhether or not Nathan Gregory Sil-
\ermaster was personally acquainted with Jacob N. Golos?
Miss Bentley. Yes, I do; and I believe their acquaintance dated
back at least to the early thirties because he knew Mr. Golos' wife and
their son, and I believe that their acquaintance, although interrupted
several times, was quite a deep one.
Mr. Stripling. At any time when you were at ^Ir. Silvermaster's
home here in Washington did you meet an individual l)y the name of
George Silverman ?
Miss Bentley. I would hardly call it meeting. I Avas sitting in the
kitchen, Mr. Silverman had come in the front door with some material
and was leaving by the kitchen door, and he went past very hurriedly.
I was introduced by some name, I do not recall, as being a friend of
Mrs. Helen Silvermaster, and he went out the kitchen door.
Mr. Stripling. Did any discussion ensue among the Silvermasters
and yourself regarding Mv. Silverman's visit and what his business
was?
Miss Bentley. Yes. They said that as usual he had come to bring
material and they were quite u])set that I was there. Usually, you
see, they kept their house clear the night I was coming there because
I
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 609
they didn't \vant luo to meet other members of the group, and particu-
larly George Silverman was extremely nervous and they said if he
realized Avho I was, he would probably fall to pieces — I believe Avas
the expression they used.
Therefore, they felt that if he had to see me in the kitchen, it was
better to pass me off as a friend of Helen Silvermaster's and gloss over
the situation.
Mr. STRirLiNG. Did they indicate to you that Mr. Silverman was
quite concerned with Avhat he was engaged in?
Miss Bentley. Yes; they said he was very much concerned over it.
Mr. Stripling. During this period that 3^011 acted as courier and
that this information was being furnished to you. were you all very
apprehensive or what was your altitude?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I would say every one of us was.
Mr. Stripling. Did you sus})ect surveillance was being kept on you?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Did you take precautions?
Miss Bentley. Definitely.
Mr. INIuNDT. Miss Bentley, while the investigator is gathering his
notes, I want to find out from you as complete a list as possible of
])eople who actually have seen this photographic apparatus in the
basement of ISIr. Silvermaster. Will you list them for us, the people
who should be able to testify under oath that it was there.
Miss Bentley. Mr. Gregory Silvermaster, Mrs. Gregory Silver-
master, Mr. Ullmann.
Mr. MuNDT. Just those three besides yourself ?
Miss Bentley. I can definitely say only those three. It is possible
that one or two others may, but not to my knowledge.
^Ir. McDowell. If they were all apprehensive about all these goings
on, how come thej^ took you down and showed j^ou this business?
Miss Bentley. I only went down there just once, toward the end
of the time I knew them, and they had not taken me down before
because they thought it would be bad if someone found me and the
apparatus simultaneously. But I had asked them about it. I was
very curious about it, and they took me down one evening to show me,
Mr. MuNDT. Go ahead.
Mr. Stripling. INIr. Chairman. I would like for this witness to step
aside at this time. I doii't want to go into these other individuals.
Mr. Hep.ert. May I ask a question ?
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Hebert.
]Mr. Hebert. Miss Bentley, this time you say they took you down
to see the photographic set-up downstairs and that they didn't want
you to be discovered with the photographic equipment — what did they
say that would give you that impression? What was j'our conversa-
tion?
Miss Bentley. They had been constantly saying each time I was
there or every so often that they did not think it was a good idea for
me to be down in the basement, and not a good idea for all of us to be
down there simultaneously.
Mr. Hebert. What I am trying to get from you is v.hat did they
say? Not your words, but their language. What did they say ? Did
they say, "Helen,"' or whatever they called you, "we have got some
80408 — 48 8
610 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
photog-raphic equipment .doAviistairs for the purpose of pliotograph-
mp: these docunrents and we don't want you down there T'
Miss Bextley. Nothing ^vas ever put that plainly in espionage.
They merely said it was not a wise thing; it is taking chances.
Mr. Hebekt. Not a wise thing, taking chances, doing what?
Miss Bentley. That was understo(xl, that we did not take extra
chances.
Mr. PIebeut. Doing what? How do you know there was a photo-
graphic set-up down there?
Miss Benti>ey. I had known it ever since it was set up.
Mr. Hekekt. Who told you?
Miss Benteey. Mr. Ullmann and the Silvermasters told me origi-
nally when they set it up.
Mr. Hebert." What did they tell you?
Miss Bextley. They told me they had set up this apparatus in the
basement to photograph documents.
Mr. Hebert. They told you they had set up photographic equipment
to photograi)h these documents?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Hebert. You w^ere down there on one occasion only ?
Miss Bextley. That is correct.
Mr. Hebert. Describe that equijiment to us.
Miss Bentley. It is rather dilhcidt because I don't know too nuich
about photographic apparatus, but any photographer could describe
it better.
^Ir. Hi^:BERT. Did they have pans with acid?
Miss Bentley. They were photographing only and not developing
the films.
Mr. Hebert. The microfilms, the little ones?
Miss Bentley. They had a Contax camera. Without drawing it I
don't know how to describe it.
Mr. Hebert. These documents you handed them to photograph ; did
you witness them photographing the documents?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. What were those documents?
Miss Bentley. I can't tell you which particular ones they Avere
photographing. They had a whole stack.
Mr. Hebert. Didn't you look at some of them?
Miss Bentley. No.
Mr. Hebert. Your curiosity was not aroused, that you didn't look
at these secret documents?
Miss Bentley. I only looked at them when they asked me. That
was one of the principles. You didn't want to know.
Mr. Hebert. You looked only when they asked you?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Hebert, When did they ask you ?
Miss Bentley. Many times we would go through the documents and
see which I felt were important enough to be photographed. You
have so much film and have to be economical with it, and we were
therefore going through these stacks of documents to see which ones
we thought would be valuable.
Mr. Hebert. It was on 3'our judgment?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 611
Miss Bentley. Not entirely. In lots of matters I dichrt know
enough about the material to jndoe, and I took their word for it, but
it some cases they took my word.
Mr. Hebert. These documents ; were they statistical reports on writ-
ten letters or interoffice communications or memoranda?
Miss Bentlet. All sorts of things. They were letters; they were
production statistics, airplane statistics; they were practically every
type of document.
Mr. Hebert. Did they have any stamp on them marked secret or
confidential?
]\Iiss Bentley. Some were marked secret and some confidential.
Mr. Hebert. You saw the stamp on them?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I did.
Mr. AIcDowELL. Miss Bentley, in your conversations about this
photographic equipment, was it ever indicated where the other end of
this stuff was — where they were developed ? Would it be New York,
INIoscow, or would you have any idea ?
Miss Bentley. Originally when they were making — I should say
l^ack at the end of 11)41 or possibly 1942 when they were doing not too
much photographic work, ]ust starting, they developed their own film
when they took three or four rolls.
When the bulk increased it was obviously impossible for them to
j)hotograph and develop. It took too much time. They were told
to give me the film as it was without being developed and I would take
it to New York.
Yes. it was discussed, because they often asked me how the film
came out and whether or not it had taken well, because in many cases
they had carbon copies, which I understand are rather difficult to
photograph well.
^Ir. McDowell. Would you have any idea where the other .enc^ of
tliis was? Did you see the films after they were developed in New
York, ever ?
Miss Bentley. No; I did not. They were turned over to a Russian
contact. He told me they were developed in this country and he
would tell me whicli ones were bad and which good so we could dupli-
cate them if one didn't turn out.
Mr. McDowell. Sometimes you would be tolcl to do it again?
]\riss Bentley. If it €ould be obtained again, we did- Sometimes
that document was passing through somebody's desk and wouldn't
return and they couldn't grab it, and sometimes it went to a file.
]Mr. McDowell. It was absolutely sure that there was another unit
of this spy ring, somebody in New York developing these pictures?
Miss Benti.ey.. I don't know what you mean by a unit, but it Avas
probably the Russian consulate or Russian Embassy.
Mr. :^icDow^ELL. That is all.
Mr. MuNDT. You may step aside.
Mr. Stripling, call your next witness.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Russell.
Mr. INIuNDT. INIr. Russell, will you be sworn ?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be -
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Russell. I do.
612 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
TESTIMONY OF LOUIS J. ETJSSELL
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Russell, will you state your full name.
Mr: Russell. Louis J. Russell.
Mr. Stripling. You are an investigator for the Committee on Un-
American Activities ?
Mr. Russell, I am.
Mr. Stripling. When were you appointed?
Mr. Russell. May 15, 1945.
Mr. Si rifling. Are 3'ou a former FBI agent?
Mr. Russell. I am.
Mr. Stripling. How long were 3^011 with the FBI ?
Mr. Russell. For 10 years.
Mr. Stripling. In connection with your duties as an investigator
for the Committee on Un-American Activities, were you instructed
last year to begin an investigation of Nathan Gregory Silvermaster ?
Mr. Russell. I was.
Mr. Stripling. With particular reference to his employment in the-
Federal Government?
Mr. Russell. I was.
Mr. Stripling. And his involvement with alleged Soviet espionage
activities ?
Mr. Russell. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Would you now detail to the committee the results of
your investigation as you obtained them from the Government files
and upon the investigations of investigators who worked under you in
tliis particular case.
Mr. Russell. I will, omitting certain phases of the investigation,
Mr. Stripling. That is agreeable.
Mr. Mundt. Yes.
Mr, Stripling. AYe don't want to go into certain phases of this re-
port at this time, and if it is agreeable with the Chair, he will skip
over that part.
Mr. Mundt. Very well.
Mr. Russell. Nathan Gregory Silvermaster was born in Russia in
1808. He entered the United States from China where he had attended
school.
Silvermaster became a naturalized citizen of the United States in
1927. He received an A. B. degree from the University of Wa^^hing-
ton, which is located in Seattle, Wash., in 1920. In 1932 he received a
Ph. D. degree from the University of California.
Silvermaster was employed as a professor bv St. Marv's College at
Oakland, Calif., from 1924 through 1931. From 193^ to August 1935
he was employed intermittently by the State of California. From
August 1935 until November 1938 he was employed by the Farm Se-
curity Administration of the United States Government. From No-
vember 1938 to July 19-10 he was employed by the Maritime Lab )r
J3oard in Washington, D. C. From July 1940 until December 28. 194 k
lie was employed by the Department of Agriculture. From December
29, 1944, to April 30, 1945, Silvermaster was employed by the Treasury
Department of the United States Government as an economist. On
February 1, 1945, Silvermaster was ])romoted to a position i)aying
$8,000 per annum with the Procurement Division of the Ti'easuiy
Department. From Ma}' 1 to November 4, 1945, he was employed ])y
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 613
the Department of Commerce in the Surplus Property Office. From
November 5, 1945, to ]March 24, 1946, Silvermaster was employed by
the War Assets Administration.
While Avith the War Assets Administration, Silvermaster was em-
ployed at a salary of $10,000 per annum. Shortly before his resigna-
tion from the War Assets Administration in March 1946, Silvermaster
received a reduction in grade amounting to $2,000 per year. Because
of this reduction in salary, he resigned from his position with the War
Assets Administration and gave as the reason therefor the following
statement :
Having performed outstanding service in the field of surplus property disposal
since July 1944, I have refused to accept an arbitrary demotion in status from
that of Director of tlie Economic and Market Research Division, Office of Planning
and Policy, to that of Deputy Director, Planning and Researcli Division, Office of
Ileal Property Disposal.
On February 25, 1944, the Special Committee on Un-American Ac-
tivities, popularly known as the Dies committee, subpenaed certain
records from the Civil Service Conmiission. Among the reports sub-
mitted to the Special Committee on Un-American Activities in com-
pliance with the subpena were reports dated from May 6 to December
^, 1942. These reports had been submitted to the Civil Service Com-
mission as a I'esult of an investigation which the Commission had con-
ducted at a time when Silvermaster was under consideration for trans-
fer to the position of head economic analyst, Board of Economic War-
fare, at a salary rating of $6,500 annually. Silvermaster, at the time
of this investigation, desired to transfer from the Department of Agri-
culture. Farm Security Administration, where lie was employed as
Director of the Labor Division.
The following is based upon reports contained in the Civil Service
Commission file which was subpenaed February 25, 1944, by the
Special Connnittee on Un-American Activities, popularly known as
the Dies committee.
Contained in one of the reports subpenaed from the Civil Service
■Commission in 1944 are the following statements:
There is considerable testimony in the tile indicating that about 1^20. the
applicant was an midtrsrnund agent for the Ccnununist I'arty. From that time
he has bt'en, according to the testimony of numerous witnesses, everything from
a fellow traveler to an agent for the OGPU (Russian Secret Police). He has
been known and listed in tlie files of the Seattle Police Department, the Thirteenth
Naval District, the San Francisco Police Department, the subversive unit of the
American Legion at San Francisco, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation, an
a member and leader of the Communist Party.
Several score of witnesses were interviewed at the various points of investiga-
tion and the testimony was overwhelmingly to the effect that from the time
that the applicant entered this country t<i the present date, he has chosen as his
clo.se fi-iends and associates, men and women who were either members of the
Communist Party, or who by their membership and affiliations in subversive and
front organizations, indicated their sympathy for the aims and polices of the
Communist Party. Those facts were confirmed in part by the applicant at the
time of .special hearings. He admitted his close association with the persons
referred to in the testimony of various witnesses, among whom are well-knowa
Communists. He admitted that he is aware of the fact that Richard Bransten,
alias Richard Brandstein, alias Bruce Minton, is a member of the Conununist
Party and is at present an editor of New Masses. He stated that Bransten is
one of his close.st social fri.Mids at this time and that he and his wife wer' ?;u"sta
in the Bransten home along with Paul Robeson and Lee Pressman, 2 weeks befor<»
the hearing.
014 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The appliotint stated that his only conta.t with Earl Browder was when they
met at a huiclKM)n of the Commonwealth Club at San Francisco in the summer
of 11)37. He stated that he was a regular attendant at the meetings and par-
ticipated in the projiram of this club.
It should be noted that numerous witnesses and the tiles of various subversive
units allege that the applicant was a member of the Fillmore section of the Com-
munist Party at San Francisco.
Various witnesses and the files of various subversive units allege that the
applicant was clo.sely associated with Sam Darcy and Harry Bridges, and
alternated with Bridges in talking to the waterfront strikers in San Francisco.
Mr. Stripling. You referred to various subversive units. Would
you amplify the statement? Were you referring to files of various
agencies ?
Mr. KussELL. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Yen are referring to Government agencies?
Mr. KussELL. That is right.
The applicant at tlie si)ecial hearing denied talking to the strikers during the
water-front strike and explained that his association with Darcy and Bridges
became necessary because of the position he held with the Maritime Labor Board.
There is considerable testimony, however, that he was in close contact with
them before he was appointed to tlie Maritime Board and the applicant admitted
that he had been a guest at a party given by Sam Kagel at which Bridges was also
present and that Harry Bridges and Sam Kagel were guests of his home within
the last few months.
I might say that in view of the fact that there are so many persons
identified in here no further identifying data other than that given in
the Civil Service Commission reports have been included at this time.
Mr. Stripling. Have you stated, Mr. Russell, that this civil-service
file — that file, Mr. Chairman, was subpenaed in 1944 by the Special
Committee on Un-American Activities. It is not a complete file. The
Civil Service Ccmimission refused at the time to honor the subpena by
furnishing the entire file, u])on the direction of the President of the
United States, because he said it would not be in the public interest
to do so. We did receive that nuich of it, however, and a number of
these quotations, which Mr. Russell is giving, are from that file based
upon their investigations and information they received from other
Govermnent agencies.
Mr. Russell. This is also from the Civil Service Commission repoi't :
The title of the applicant's thesis when he received his Ph. D. at the University
of California in l'Xi'2 was Lenin's Contribution to Economic Thouglit I'rior to
the Bolshevik Revolution. This, in itself, would not necessarily be signiticant
of his political philosophy but when considered witli the testimony of the witnesses
relating to his C< mmunist activities, it appears to be liiglily signiticant.
Tlie applicant denied that he was an agent of the OGPU or a member of the
Comnumist Party. Former members of tlie Communist I'arty state that when
a Communist is asked as to his membership in the party, he at that moment ceases
to be a member until he answers in the negative. After he makes answer }iis
niemliership is reinstated according to Connnuiiist doctrines.
It is possible that some of tl^e testimony in this case is unreliable but granting
such, the overwhelming amount of testimony from the many and varied witnesses
and sources, indicates beyond reasonable doubt that Nathan (Jregory Silvermaster
is now. and has for years, been a member and a leader of tiie Ctmimunist X'arty,
and very probably a secret agent of tlie OGPU.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Russell, you are quoting from the Civil S?rvice
i'e]:)ort ?
INIr. Rt^ssELL. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. Is that last statement you made from tlie Civil Service
leport ?
\
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 615
Mr. llussELL. That is in the Civil' Service Commission report.
Mr. MuNDT. Tlie Civil Service Commission says he probably is a
member of the OGPU. which is the state secret police agency of the
Communist Party of Russia?
Mr. KussELL. That is right ; better known as the XKYD, and since
then as the MVD. but it is the same thing.
Mr, SxRirLixG. Would j^ou identif}- the person who prepared that
memorandum i
Mr, Russell. There were so many it will be difficult to locate them,
but I can find it.
Mr. Striplixg. Mr. Chairman. I will be glad to show this to the
connnittee. However, since this man is still an agent of the investi-
gatoi-y body of the Federal Government, I don't think it would be
wise to make his name public. I will submit it to you.
Mr. MuNDT. Show us his name later.
]\Ir. Russell. Based upon a statement which I read as contained in
the Civil Service Commission files, the following recommendation was
made by the investigator :
It is hereby recommended that the applicant be declared ineligible for the
jjosition of head economist. Board of Economic Warfare. It is further j-ecom-
mended that all of his eligibilities be canceled and that he be debarred for 3-
years or for the duration of the emergency. whiehe\er be the longer. It is
further recommended that the Secretary of Agriculture be advised as to the
derogatory information received concei'ning the applicant in the course of this
investigation.
. As a result of the statements mentioned above, Mr. R. E, Green-
field, a rating and reviewing analyst for the Civil Service Commission^
made the following recommendation on July 16, 1942 :
Ineligible, cancel Mr. Silvermaster's eligibilities on the senior social .-science
analyst register, cancel any and all other pending applications or eligibilities
he may haA'e, and bar him for the duration of the national emergency.
Another section of the Civil Service Commission reports, as set
forth under a heading "Evidence of Disloyalty,'' contains the follow-
ing statement :
Tliere is considerable testimony in the file indicating that about in 1920
Mr. Silvermaster was an underground agent of the Communist Party. From
that time until the present, according to the testimony of the witnesses, he has
been everything from a fellow traveler to an agent of the OGFU.
He is listed in the files of the Seattle police department as follows : "Gregory N.
Silvermaster, alias Gregory Masters, alias Nathan Masters, as a nation;il com-
mitteeman at large of the Communist Party, U. S. A. * * * Silvermaster
was former agitation propagandist of the Fillmore subsection in the San Fran-
cisco, Calif., Thirteenth District Communist Party."
Another section of the Civil Service Commission report states:
The Thirteenth Naval District files show "Original name, X. Zeilberneister,
member of Communist Party in Seattle, \Yash. (no date), completely under-
ground in 1920."
Another section of the Civil Service Commission reports, which, as
stated, were subpenaed in 1944. contains this statement :
A great many witnesses were interviewed during the investigation iu this
ease and the testimony is overwhelmingly to the effect that from the time Mr.
Silvermaster entered this country to the present time, he has chosen as his
clo.«e friends and associates men and women who are either members of the
Communist I'arty or who by their membership and affiliation in subversive and
fi-ont organizations indicate their sympathy for the aims and policies of the
Communist Party. At the hearing Mr. Silvermaster admitted various associa-
616 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
tious with approximately 50 persons listed by the witnesses in the investigation,
among whom are well-known Comnnuiists. Harry Bridges, according to Mr.
Silvermaster, was in Washington "early this summer" (1942) and contacted
Mr. Silvermaster officially and also came to his home regarding certain opera-
tions of the waterfront on the Pacific coast. The list of persons i-eferred to
included the names of 32 jiersons listed as Communists or alleged Communists
by the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Military Intelligence, or various police
departments. As an indication that Mr. Silvermaster has continued such asso-
■ciations up until the present time, he listed Mrs. Emily Blair, Mr. Harry Blair,
Mr. Harry D. White, Mr. Lee Pressman, and Mr. Richard Bransten, alias Bruce
Minton
Mr. STRiPLiNrx. Have all these people been previously identified in
connection with this particular hearing?
Mr. Russell. Mrs. Emily Blair was identified when the record of
Ullmann was read into the record this morning as having been tlie
employer of Ullmann.
Mr. Stripling. Richard Bransten has been identified i^reviously?
Mr. Russell. Previously identified.
Mr. Stripling. And also in the Hollywood investigation.
Mr. Russell. Yes. His first wife, Louise Bransten, was also iden-
tified. Her name appears subsequently.
Mr. Stripling. Don't read any names which have not been brought
into this particular hearing.
Mr, Russell. All right.
"^te*
He admitted that he knows that Mr. Bransten is an avowed and open Com-
munist and the editor of New Masses.
Other comments contained in the Civil Service Commission file are
as follows :
It is considered that the developments in this case which include information
from many and varied witnesses and sources raise beyond any i-e.'isonable doubt
a question of Mr. Silvermaster's loyalty and as that doubt should be resolved
in favor of the Government, it is recommended that he be rated ineligible, that
his eligibilities on the senior social science analyst register as well as any and
all other pending applications or existing eligibilities he may have, be canceled
and that he be barreil for the duration of the national emergenc.v.
Mr. Mundt. What date was that statement written by the Civil
Service Commission?
Mr. Russell. There were a great number of investigative reports in
that file.
Mr. Mundt. I want to get the year.
Mr. Russell. 194^.
Mr. Mundt. 1942?
Mr. Russell. That is right.
Mr. Mundt. I want to get the chronology of this thing clear. As
I understand it — and it is almost beyond my comprehension — as I
understand it. that Civil Service report stating "on the basis of our
oflicial investigative bodies of the Government — FBI and Civil Service
and Intelligence offices — "that the Civil Service Commission felt
Nathan Gregory Silvermaster not only was a Communist of long-
standing but jn-obably a member of the NKVD or OGPU, the Russian
Secret Police Society" — find after that report was made available to
the emuloyment agencies, he continued in Government employment,
Mv. Russell. That is correct.
Mr. Mundt. For how long after?
Mr. Ri'SSELL. E.xcuse me for a moment. It was until 1946. Toward
the conclusion of this report there is a statement covering that.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 617
Ml'. MuxDT. To a country boy from South Dakota where we don't
do things like that, that is ahnost beyond comprehension, but as long
as you have the files of the Civil Service Connnission there and are
reading from them, and we have the testimony of Silvermaster him-
self, plus the (xovernment record that he was employed until 1946^
we must accept it for fact.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chairman, I think it wouhl be helpful if the^
agencies by whom Silvermaster was employed after the date of this
report could appear in the record at this point so that the people, in
other woj-ds, who emploj^ed this man with knowledge of this particular
report — that certainly should be focused at this point in the record if
it is not done so later on.
Mr. JNIuxnT. Without objection, the staff will place that record in at
this point.
We have the record of the Silvermaster employment many different
times, but you can break it down chronologically to show with whicli
(jovernment agency he w^as employed subsequent to the time the Civil
Service Commission indicated him as a member of the Russian secret
police.
(The data referred to is in the files of the committee.)
Mr. Hebert. I think it significant to show that this committee did
not come into cognizance of Silvermaster until after these reports were
made by other Government agencies. Is that corre(5t?
Mr. ]\IuxDT. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. The Committee on Un-American Activities.
Ml'. Hebert. I am talking about the Committee on Un-American
Activities, the old Dies committee. How long was the Dies committee
investigating ?
Mr. Stripling. They started in 1938.
Mr. Hebert. That was prior to the time he came under the sur-
A'eillance of the Civil Service Commission.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Dies tried to get him fired.
i\Ir. Hebert. He was already in government?
]Mr. Stripling. That is right.
Mr. Hebert. Prior to the time that former Congressman Dies tried
to get him fired for his communistic activities, was the Govern.ment
cognizant of the fact that he had these associations?
Mr. Stripling. Here is the record, ]\lr. Hebert. They were ; yes.
Mr. Hebert. I am tr^nng to establish this : Silvermaster indicated
that this is just another link in a smear campaign by this conunittee
against him.
Mr. Stripling. No, sir.
Mr. Hebert. I want the record to show that the Government agency-
was actually cognizant prior to the activities of this committee of
Silvermaster's communistic attachmeaits and affiliations.
Mr. Stripling. According to the record, the reason he wasn't re-
moved was because he went to the White House and got Mr. Currie to
go to Mr. Patterson in his behalf.
Mr. Hebert. I want to establish the fact that the cogniz mt (jovern-
ment agency had known of his communistic attachments and aflilia-
tions prior to the investigation instituted bv the old Dies committee.
Mr. Stripling. I will have to check into it to see if it was prior to
1938.
'618 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. MuxHT. For the purpose of correctino- the record, Mr. Hebert,
when the Chair asked Mr. Silverniaster whether he thought this con-
spiracy to smear him, of which he spoke, was initiated by and con-
ducted by this committee, he said "No." I then asked him whether
it was the FBI, and he gave a rather vague and indefinite reply to
that question but did not say this committee was endeavoring to smear
him,
Mr. Russell. This statement is a quotation from the Civil Service
Commission report :
Silvermaster, of course, denied any implications tliat he is a Communist.
In my opinion, sucli denials sound indeed empty in the face of the cumulative
evidence that he is a Communist of great importance.
The opinion expressed is by the Civil Service Commission, not
mine.
It will be noted that the testimony linking Silvermaster with communism
and with the OGPU (tlie Russian secret police) comes not only from persons
without any ax to grind who have made a study of Communist activities and
personalities, but from persons who are themselves in the Connnunist movement
or members of the Communist Party and in the best position to furnish informa-
tion concerning Silvermaster.
As in all such cases, the evidence is circumstantial. It is so strong, however,
that I am convinced, after reading the file, that Silvermaster is in fact a Com-
munist and a worker for the Communist cause.
This [the following] is not a quotation. This is an investigative
report of the committee:
With reference to the proposed transfer of Nathan Gregory Silver-
master to the Board of Economic Warfare from the Farm Security
Administration, which was the basis for the Civil Service Commis-
sion's investigation, it should be noted that the Civil Service Com-
mission received a communication from the Board of Economic
Warfare which stated, in part:
* * * action looking to Mr. Silvermaster's employment in such a position
has been discontinued, and any investigations which might now be in progress
can be canceled.
A memorandum in the Civil Service Commission file regarding
the request for termination of the Silvermaster investigation by the
Board of Economic Warfare contains this statement :
This, of course, ends the matter insofar as the Board of Economic Warfare
is concerned. As the Commission may recall, we have made an exceedingy
comprehensive investigation of Mr. Silverniiister at aljout half a dozen localities
in this country. The case was regarded as a very close and important one.
The last di^tei-mi nation was that it would probably be necessary to make even
furtlier investigation.
It is doubtful if in view of the turn the case has taken we have a good basis
lor proceeding with the investigation. It is believed, however, tliat we should
invite an inspection of the tile by officials of th> Department of Agriculture,
Mr. Silvermaster apparently still being in tbe Faim S-^curity Administratidn.
In tliis connection it might be pointed out that much of the evidence in tlie
case points to the fact tliat ?.Ir. Silvermaster is one of the really imijortant
operatives of the undercover Communist Party in the I'nited States. II? has
been employed by tbe Farm Security Administration for a niunb n- oi years,
i-pecilically from IDS") to 193S, and iSI-io to date.
Mr. Hkber^'. May I interrupt^ I want to get this straight in my
own mind. What you are reading is quotes from the Civil Service file
repoits, and is not an expression of your opinion or the o]")inioii of
anv member of the committee'^
]\[r. Russ?:ll. That is right.
\
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 619
Mv. Stripling. This is tlie Civil Service.
Mv. Ri'ssELL. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. The letter you read in connection with tlie barring
of Silvermaster from eniph)vment by the Government, was that an
official act of the Civil Service Commission ?
Mr. Russell. That was.
Mr. Stripling. In other words, the Civil Service Connnission — and
T am speaking- of the Civil Service Commission and talkhig of tlie
Commission itself, the top three — under their authority wrote an order
telling the Government not to employ Silvermaster because of the
confirmation in their minds of these conclusions which you are reading
from their report, in addition also to the report from Naval Intelli-
gence.
Mr. Russell. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling, That is correct?
Mr. Ri'ssELL. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. Then after the Civil Service Commission formally
and officially instructed the governmental agencies not to employ
Silvermaster, he then went to Lauchlin Currie. who in turn w^ent to
Secretary Patterson, who in turn wrote the letter which has been
introduced in evidence removing the bar of the Civil Service Com-
mission and allowing him to be employed bv the Government ; is that
right?
Mr. Rltssell. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. That is it ?
INIr. Russell. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. There was an official action by the Civil Service
Coitimission overridden. by the then Secretary of War through the
intercession of an administrative assistant from the White House.
Mv. Russell. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. I think the record should show that administrative as-
sistant w^as Lauchlin Currie, because there were several administrative
assistants.
Mr. Stripling. In that connection does the file show, Mr. Russell,
that Nathan Gregory Silvermaster gave Lauchlin Currie as a ref-
erence?
Mr. Russell. In the interview which the Civil Service Commission
conducted with Mr. Silvermaster there is a statemet to the effect that
he is a friend of Lauchlin Currie.
INIr. Stripling. Who else did he list as a reference or friend?
Mr. Ri'ssELL. He listed Harry D. White as a social acquaintance as
well as Mr. White's wife. He also listed Nathan Witt, and there are
numerous individuals whom he identified during the course of his
interrogation by the Civil Service Commission whom he would not
identify when he appeared before this committee.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, Investigator William Wheeler of the
committee staff is prepared to testify that the Civil Service in making-
its investigation connnunicated with Lauchlin Currie as to the fitness
and loyalty of Mr. Silvermaster. Mr. Currie recommended Mr. Sil-
vermaster.
Now, I don't want to exi)ose the investigator or the people who
handled that for the Government agency, but Mr. Wheeler has a
direct statement to that effect and will so testify, if necessary.
620 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. MuxDT. We have the name of tlie CIahI Service investigator
who made that statement ?
Ml'. Stripling. We do.
Mr. MuNDT. So if necessary, if Mr. Currie comes in nnder oath and
denies that, we can snbpena him.
Mr. S'J'RiPLiNO. He is ah-eady nnder subpena.
Mr. MuNDT. The Chair wonld like to annonnce while counsel is
conferring that J. Peters, alias Alexander Stevens, alias Isidore
Boorstein, who has been bronglit into this liearing as one of the key
lignres and one of the master minds of the whole cc^ispiracy and
whom we have been trying to locate for a long time so we conld serve
a subpena on him, we have just received word from Mr. Watson B.
Miller, Commissioner of Immigration, that they will locate this man
for us now so we can serve a subpena upon him and we shall serve it
forthwith.
Is that all, Mr. Stripling, for this morning?
Mr. Stripling. We would like permission to include the entire
memorandum, an analysis of the Civil Service file, as well as our own
investigation, into the record nnless the committee wants to hear
all of it.
Mr. MuNDT. I think the committee has heard enough and you can
put the whole statement into the record so that we will have the whole
thing entirely in context.
(The information referred to is as follows:)
Record of J. Peters, Aiso Known as J. Peter, J. V. Peters, Ai^xandek ( Jold-
BERGER, Roberts, Steve Lapin, Pete Stevens, Steve Mtt.ler. Isador Boorstein.
Steven Lapur, Alexander Stevens
*
J. PETERS
J. Peters is the author of a pamiihlet entitled "'The (\iiiiiiiuiiist Party — A
Manual on Orjianization" published hy the Workers Library Publishers in .July
1932 and described his experiences in his I)ook, I Was a Soviet Worker (Dutton).
The I'arty Or.iianizer was for a time an internal oi-gan of the ronnnunist Party.
USA, devoted to matters of oi-gaiiizatiou. It was circiilated only within party
ranks and its contributors were restricted to members of the party. .T. Peters
contributed articles to this magazine in its issues of .Tune 1931, page 1 ; July 1934,
page 26 ; February 1987, page 7 ; September 1933.
The Communist was for a number of years the official, theoretical, monthly
organ of the Communist Party, USA. Its contributors were resti-icted to mem-
bers of the party. Articles by .1. Peters are to be found in the Communist for
September 1933, page 948, and October 1935, page lODfi.
Andrew Smith was an American Comnuniist who visited the Soviet Union in
1932 and descri))ed his experiences in his book I Was a Soviet Worker (Dutton).
In the appendix of this I)ook are facsimiles of two documents, one certifying to
the relial)ility of Andrew Smith as a Communist and also anncuncing his trans-
fer to the Soviet Union. The first is dated March 7, 1932 and the second is dated
March 17, 1932. Both are signed by .T. Peters as the "Acting Representative, CP
USA, E. C. C. I." (the abbreviations stand for Communist Pai-ty, USA, Execu-
tive Committee of the Comnuniist IntinTiati<'nal ).
The Krumliein Training Scliool was organized in 193<I for the purpose of train-
ing Conununist leaders. It was named in honor of Ciiarles Krumbein. a Com-
munist leader now deceased. The I)aily Worker of .lune S, 193(5, page 5, shows
that J. Peters was an instructor at the Ki-umbein Training School.
On October .30, 1947, Louis .1. Russell, investigator for the Ccnunittee on Un-
American Activities, subujitted the following testimony regarding the act vi ties
of .1. Peters :
''On May 3, 1942, Alexander Stevens, also known as .1. Petei'S, and whose real
name is Goldberger, visited Los Angeles, Calif. When he arrived in Los Angeles
he was met ))y Herbert Riberman at the Union Station. During that day a
meeting was held bv Alexander Stevens, Waldo Salt, and H Mbert Bib^rman.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 621
* * * Also on that same date a third meeting was held hy Alexander Stevens,
J. I'eters, R. Goldherser. as he is known, Morton Grant, John Howard Lawson,
and Vera Harris, the wife of Lou Harris, a screen writer.
"During the evening of May 3, 1VA2, another meeting was held in Herhert
Bib.ernian's home between Stevens or I'eters. John Howard Lawson, Lester Cole,
^Madeline Ruthven, and Herta I'erkvitz. Lester Cole is a screen writer while
Ruthveu I'erkvitz are Connnuiiist Party functionaries in Los Angeles, Calif.
Ruthven, Lawson. Stevens, and Salt also held a meeting on the same date, late
at night, in the home of Waldo Salt. During this visit, among other things,
Stevens was working on the Communist-inspired movement to secure the release
of Earl Browder. Communist Party president at that time, from a Federal
penitentiary, whei'e he had been incarcerated on a charge of using a false pass-
port to travel to the Soviet Union. ~
"Stevens also had a very succes.sful tinancial trip since he collected $1,500, or
furnished this sum to Communist Party functionaries in California, which he
had re<-eived from Louise Brausten. He also received the sum of !j<2,200 from a
Ruth Wilson, whom 1 can identify in executive session, * * *
"Mr. Stripi.ixg. Mr. Chairman, with reference to J. Peters, or Stevens, I should
like to state that the committee issued a subiiena calling for his appearance
before the conunittee yesterday. However, we have b^-en unable to serve the
subpena. It was issued several months ago. He was arrested by the inuiiigra-
tion authorities about 3 weeks ago in Poughkeepsie. N. Y.
"The conunittee has evidence to show that J. Peters, or Alexander Stevens, or
Isadore Boorstein, as he is also known, has for years been the leader of the under-
ground section of the Communist Party in the United S'tates.
"The committee has the passport, a fraudulent passport, by the way, on which
he traveled to the Soviet Union on October 7, 1931, under the name of Isadore
Boorstein. When and if we can obtain Mr. Peters and have him before the
conunittee we will go into great detail concerning his activities. * * *
"Mr. Stkipi.ixg. Can yoti tell the committee- whether your investigation dis-
closed whether or not Peters was, or Alexander Stevens was. very successful in
raising funds among various peop'e in the motion-picture industry when he was
out there in behalf of Earl Browder?
"Mr. Russell. Yv'ell, the donations that I know about are those received from
Louise Bransten and Ruth Wilson. However, it is known that Bransten — or, that
Stevens, or Peters, as he is known, visited a bank with Herbert Biberman and that
Biberman entered a safety deposit box in the bank. However, I can't state
whether or not he got money from the bf)X.
"Mr. Stripling. He did enter the bank with Peters?
"Mr. Russell. That is right" ( pp. r)17-510. Hearings Before the Committee on
Un-American Activities, House of Representatives, Regarding the Communist
Infiltration of the Motion-Picture Industry).
On February 6, 1947, Mr. Louis F. Budenz submitted the following testimony
before the Conunittee on Un-American Activities:
"You can understand then that Mr. Berger-P^isler's power, in part, is the fact
that he is the receptacle of the line and of the orders as they come from Moscow.
"But there are others. J. V. Peters. I would like to mention that gentleman
because he will undoubtedly appear again. J. V. Peters, known as Roberts, known
as Steve; in fact, having so many different names that, as I say. he made me
dizzy trying to keep track of them, he also was part of this apparatus" (p. 46,
Hearings Before the Committee on Un-American Activities on Gerhart Eisler,
Investigation of Un-American Propaganda Activities in the United States).
On November 22. 1946, ^Ir. Louis F. Budenz testified before the Committee on
Un-American Activities, in part : "there was a Peters — the last man changed his
name so much tliat it kept me busy trying to remember what the name was.
"I was frequently embairassed as to what I was to call him — J. V. Peters,
Ja -k Roberts, or whatever the new name might be. * * *
"Now, as a matter of fact, the Peters mentioned had written a pamphlet for
the Communist Party long ago under the name of J. V. Peters, and that places
him. As a matter of fact, it was Peters who introduced me to the idea of the
conspiratorial apparatus of the Communist Party. He is a plea.sant man, too,
so far as that goes. He told me that the Communist Party is like a submerged
submarine ; the part that you see above water is the periscope, but the part
underneath is the real Communist organization ; that is the conspiratorial ap-
paratus" (pp. 13, 14, RevLsed Hearings Before the Committee on Un-American
Activities, Investigation of Un-American Propaganda Activities in the United
States).
622 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The Daily Worker of ^lay 27, 1929, pages 1 and 5, refers to J. Peter as follows :
"Unreserved acceptance of the decisions contained in the Comintern, letter
is pledged in the resolutions adopted by the Hungarian Bureau of the Commu-
nist I'arty at its meeting. Thursday, May 23, and sent to the Central Committee
of tlie party through J. Peter, secretary."
The Daily Worker of May 24, 1929, page 1, carried the following statement
of J. Peter :
"From Hungarian Bureau Secretary.
"I fully and unreservedly endorse and accept the Comintern letter and the
Polcom's unanimous decisions. I pledge my full supiwrt to the Central Commit-
tee tightiug against all factionalism, for building the mass Communist Party
in the United States. I will do all in my power to mobilize members to sup-
poi-t the Comintern letter and the unanimous decisions of the Central Committee."
"J. Peter,
"Hungarian Bureau, Communist Party."
J. I'eter contributed articles to the Daily Worker on October 10, 193.'>, and
October 11, 1933.
J. I'eters contributed articles to the Daily Worker on May 30 and 31, 1933.
STEVE MILLER
Steve INIiller is mentioned as a speaker at special meetings held during the
week of April 9, 1940, on The Struggle for Peace and Building the Communist
Party. According to the Daily Worker of April 9, 1946, these meetings were
arranged by the New York County of the Conmiunist Party.
According to a confidential report in our files. Steve INIiller was a delegate to
the New York State .special convention of the Communist Political Association
held on August 10. 11, and 12, 1945.
Ml". MuNDT. The hearing will stand in recess until tomorrow morn-
ing at 10 : 30, at which time we will hear Alger Hiss.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 40 p. m., the committee recessed until 10 : 30
a. m., Thursday, August 5, 1948.)
i
HEARINGS REGARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IK
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT •
I
THURSDAY, AUGUST 5, 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. C.
The committee met. pursuant to notice, at 10 : 30 a. m., in the caucus-
room, Old House Office Buildinti:, Hon. Karl E. Mundt presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives Karl E. JNIundt, John
]\IcDoAvell, Richard M. Nixon, John E. Rankin, and F. Edward
Hebert.
Staff members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator ;^
Louis J. Russell, William A. Wheeler, and Robert B. Gaston, investi-
gators, and A. S. Poore, editor, for the committee.
Mr. Mundt. The committee will come to order, please.
Mr. Rankin. Mr. Chairman, before starting, I have a request 1
want to make. It has been testified that a large number of these indi-
viduals who are charged with being Communist spies were working
in the Department of Commerce during the time that Henry A.
Wallace was Secretary of that Department.
Since these individuals were evidently appointed by him, I suggest
that Henry A. Wallace be subpenaed to come before the committee
and tell us why these Communists who were plotting the overthrow of
the Government were placed in key positions in his Department at
a time when our j^oung men were fighting and dying on every battle
front in the world for the protection of this country.
Mr. jNIundt. The Chair will say the conmiittee is going to have an
(xecutive session this afternoon and that request will be considered at
that time.
Mr. McDowell has a statement to make.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Chairman
Mr. Rankin. I would like to submit this for the record.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Chairman, I received this morning a telephone
call from a conscience-stricken employee of the Government, discuss-
ing in some detail the transfer of American currency plates to the
Soviet Government. It is well known to many that that cost, in the
occupation zones over there, the United States Government many
millions of dollars.
Since I received the call I have been thinking over a number of
things, and I think I should state this at this time publicly — that I
have been a member of a special subcommittee that was appointed
sometime ago by the chairman of the full Connnittee on Un-American
Activities. This committee has been sitting in executive session for
Fome time.
623
624 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The committee, I feel, was appointed without even tlie knowledge
of some of the members of the C'onnnittee on Un-American Activities.
We have been taking testimony on many things leading up to the
j>resent hearings today.
As the widespread ramifications of this intense espionage ring-
begin to unfold here, 1 feel that .the American people should know
what is coming to be well known to all who observe the situation^ —
that we most certainly won the war and are most rapidly losing
the ])eace.
I have left my home in Pittsburgh a number of times to rush down
here and take testimony. Among other things that I will reveal
now is that at the very height of atomic research in 194:3, at the most
desperate part of the American war effort, there were two shi})ments
of uranium compound, the most substantial element of atomic energ-y,
made to Russia after tremendous pressure on all j^hases of the Ameri-
can Government on the part of Russian agents, some of them known
and acknowledged as Russian agents and others who had established
themselves by surreptitious methods in the American Government.
These shipments were made from a small, obscure airfield in the
United States, the. first one of o()() ]:)ounds and the second of 1,000
pounds.
We have established almost beyond question that a shipment of
heavy water was sent to Russia, under ]:)ressure ]:)artly from legitimate
and legal sources and partly from the pressure exerted by members
of this ring, whether they were known or unknown members of the
ring. We know that a factory was flown entirely to Russia.
Mr. Rankin. Will the gentleman yield?
Mr. McDowell. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. The gentleman says these plates for the printing of
American money were sent to Russia. Were those Federal Reserve
plates? And what was being printed — was it Federal Reserve notes
being printed over there?
Mr. McDowell. I am unable to answer the gentleman's question
other than they were currency plates from the United States Depart-
ment of the Treasury.
Mr. Rankin. We have that bill before the House today, to amend
the Federal Reserve Act. It seems to me that this is a very vital
question. If they have been printing Federal Reserve money and
making it legal tender at the expense of the United States, I think it
ouffht to be brought out on the floor.
Mr. McDowell. The gentleman from Mississi])pi has noted this
morning that the Commerce Department was heavily infiltrated by
these people — the story is beginning to be unfolded here — and this is
only the beginning of the story. It might be well to point out to the
gentleman from Mississippi and all the rest of the members of this
committee that we have discovered that the infiltration is also deep in
the State Department, deep in the Department of the Treasury, deep
in the War Production Board, deep even in the OSS of the United
States Army during the hostilities.
Mr. Rankin. How about the last two political conventions?
Mr. McDowell. I W'ould like to say that in the testimony that has
been taken in executive session, some of the highest and most beloved
and most honored citizens of the United States have appeared and
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 625
gladly testified to the activities that they knew about and were willing
to give their Government at this period.
That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Stripling, who is your first witness ?
Mr. Stripling. I would like to call Congressman Busbey, of Illinois,
for the purpose of putting into the record a letter which he received
from the Commissioner of Civil Service, Mr. Flemming. It relates
directly to the Silvermuster matter, and I think it is pertinent to be in
the record.
Mr. MuNDT. Is Congressman Busbey in the room ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Eankin. I would like the record to show that Representative
Busbey was an honored and very effective and very valuable member
of the Committee on Un-American Activities when Mr. Dies, of Texas,
was chairman.
Mr. MuNDT. Will you stand and be sworn, Mr. Busbey?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Busbey. I do.
Mr. MuNDT. You may be seated.
TESTIMONY OF HON. FRED E. BUSBEY, A REPRESENTATIVE IN
CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF ILLINOIS
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Busbey, will you give your full name, please.
Mr. Busbey. Fred E. Busbey.
Mr. Stripling. You are a Representative in Congi-ess from the State
of Illinois?
Mr. Busbey. Representing the Third District in the Eightieth Con-
gress.
Mr. Stripling. ]\Ir. Busbey, in connection with your official duties
as a Member of the House, did you investigate, last year, the activities
of Nathan Gregory Silvei master while he was employed in the Federal
Government ?
Mr. Busbey. I did.
Mr. Stripling. Would you give the committee any information at
this time which would be jjertinent to the inquiry uncler consideration.
Mr. Busbey. I think, Mr. Stripling, I should state at the beginning
that I have been interested in running down subversive activities in
the United States ever since 1921.
I was a member of the Seventy-eighth Congress ; I was not reelected
for the Seventy-ninth Congress, and I was elected for the Eightieth
Congress.
One of the first things I did, upon being sworn in as a ^Member of
the Eightieth Congress was to write Mr. Arthur Flemming, one of
the Commissioners of the United States Civil Service Commission, a
letter regarding Carl A. Marzani and Nathan Gregory Silvermaster.
If the committee will permit, I have dictated a memorandum lead-
ing up to these letters that I would like to read as I go along and
then put the letters into the record.
INIr. Stripling. Is that agreeable to the chairman?
Mr. MuNDT. That is perfectly all right.
80408—48 9
626 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. BusBEY. Mr. Chairman, the people of the United States are
wondering- just how far the Communists have infiltrated into highly
confidential Government positions. For the past several days we have
listened to and read with amazement the stories related by former
Communist functionaries. One in particular spent the war years in
getting secret information to be sent to a foreign government. While
we are at a loss to understand why an American would furnish military
or otherwise confidential information to the agent of a foreign gov-
ernment, we should be more concerned as t o how persons of such weak
character were placed in Government positions.
I have given considerable thought and study to this question, and
the only conclusion I have been able to reach is that the fault lies
squarely on the shoulders of the Civil Service Commission. What
caused me to reach such a conclusion ?
To begin with, the Civil Service Commission is the employing agency
for the Federal Government. One of its duties is to determine the
fitness and suitaliility of those persons seeking Government employ-
ment. Loyalty to our form of government was generally presumed,
but in the early day of the preparedness program the Civil Service
Commission no longer presumed applicants for Government posi-
tions to be loyal. On May 29, lOlO, the Commission issued the follow-
ing press release :
The United States Civil Service Commission has decided officially that as a
matter of policy it will not certify to any department or agency the name of any
person Avhen it has heen established that he is a member of the Communist Party,
German Bund, or any other Communist or Nazi organization.
A restatement of this policy was made by Arthur Flemming, a
member of the Civil Service Commission, on December 12, 1940, when
he testified before a subcommittee of the Committee on Appropriations,
House of Representatives, Seventy-seventh Congress. 5lr. Flemming
said:
In connection with all our investigations, we are keeping this policy in mind :
If we find anybody has had any associations with the Communists or the German
Bund, or any other foreign organization of that kind, that person is disqualified
immediately. All doubts are being resolved in favor of the Government.
Now, gentlemen, let me impress that one sentence on you. That
is a statemeiit by Mr. Flemming of the Civil Service Commission on
December 12 before the Appropriations Committee :
All doubts are being resolved in favor of the Government.
On September 7, 1941, Hon. Martin Dies, chairman of the Committee
on Un-American Activities, House of Representatives, charged that
Leon Henderson, Price Administrator, had employed at least 50 per-
sons with records of affiliations with Communist front organizations.
Specificall3% Mr. Dies named — I am not going to read this portion
to the committee, but ask permission that it be incorporated at this
point in the record. It has to do with one individual particularh-,
a Tom Tippett, and showed how the committee did not resolve these
things in favor of the Government.
(The material referred to above is as follows :)
Tom Tippett, Assistant Chief, Rent Section, $o,(iOO per annum.
E. J. Lever, principal field representative, $5,(t00 per annum.
Mildred Brady, principal specialist, $r).(300 per annum.
Robert A. Brady, head consultant, $7,500 .per annum.
Dewey H. Palmer, consultant, $20 per day.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 627
I do not intend to enter into a discussion of the Communist front
affiliations of these five persons, but I do Avant to mention something
about Mr. Tippett. The record shows Mr. Tippett was a member
of the National Executive Committee of the Conference for Pro-
gressive Labor Action. The letterhead of this organization carries
the following statement of purpose :
It aims to inspire the workers to take control of government and industry,
to abolish capitalism, and to build a workers' republic.
In addition, Mr. Tippett was among the sponsors of a banquet
given Ella Reeve Bloor, affectionately referred to by Connnunists
as ''Mother Bloor." He was a member of the American Committee
for the Defense of Leon Trotsky. He was a staff writer for the
Comnumist Daily Worker. Together with Earl Browder and Wil-
liam Z. Foster, he w^as a speaker at a meeting of the Workers Party
in Chicago in 1923. He was a speaker at a meeting of the Com-
munist Trade Union Educational League wdiere he was introduced
by Foster. If not an actual Communist, Mr. Tippett certainly could
be classified as having had association with Connnunists, who, accord-
ing to Commissioner Flemming, were disqualified immediately. Mr.
Tippett was disqualified by the Commission. But Mr. Leon Hender-
son interceded on behalf of Mr. Tippett and the Civil Service Com-
mission, utterly disregarding their statement of policy to Congress,
rated Mr. Tippett eligible. The Commission said that Mr. Tippett
had been indiscreet and sometimes unwise in his associations and
utterances.
From there on the record of similar actions by the Civil Service
Commission in permitting Communists and their fellow travelers to
obtain important Government positions is almost endless and con-
tinues to the present day.
I want to submit proof of how the Communists and Communist
sympathizers obtain important and confidential positions. On Jan-
uary 6, 1947, I wrote Mr. Arthur S. Flemming of the Civil Service
Commission asking for information on two persons then employed
in the Government service. They were Carl Aldo Marzani and
Nathan Gregory Silvermaster. On January 8, 1947, I received the
following reply :
United States Civil Service Commission,
Washington 25, D. C, January 8, 1947.
lion. Fred E. Busbey,
House of Representatives, Washington, D. C.
Dear Congressman Busbey : Reference is made to your letter of January 6,
1947, regarding the recommendations and final action taken by the Commission
in the cases of Carl A. Marzani and Nathan Gregory Silvermaster.
In the case of Carl A. Marzani, ineligibility was recommended by the rating
examiner of the Investigations Division, which recommendation was concurred
in by the reviewer and the chief of the Investigations Division. His case was
reviewed by two staff members and the Executive Director and Chief Examiner,
all of whom recommended ineligibility. The Commission rated Mr. Marzani in-
eligible, and from this rating, Mr. Marzani appealed and was given a hearing
before the Board of Appeals and Keview, at which time Messrs. H. C. Barton,
chief of the Presentation Division. Emil Despres of the Board of Analysis, Pi*of.
Edward S. Mason of the Board of Analysis, and Maj. D. Thompson of the Army
Service Forces, all of whom were fellow employees, with the exception of Mr.
H. C. Barton, who was the supervisor under whom Mr. Marzani was employed,
and all of whom were with the Office of Strategic Services, testified emphatically
regarding Mr. Marzani's loyalty. Thereafter, the Board of Appeals and Review
recommended eligibilit.v, and the case was again reviewed by two staff members,
one of whom recommended ineligibility and the other eligibility, the eligible
62 S COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
rating being concurred in by the Executive Director and Cliief Examiner. Tlie
Commission tlien rated Mr. Marzani eligible.
Additional information regarding Mr. Marzani has recently come to light,
and the entire file regarding Mr. INIarzani was referred to the Department of
Justice for tlieir consideration. Subsequent to the receipt of your letter of
January 6, 1947, a conference was held with the Department of Justice regarding
Mr. Marzani's case, at which time the Department of Justice expressed the
desire that any information whatsoever regarding him be lield in strict confidence.
That concludes the part of the letter in reference to Carl A. Marzani.
I would like to say in that connection that ^Ir. Flemming delivered this
letter to me at my office in person and we had a discussion of this
Marzani case and the Silvermaster case for an hour and a half.
Mr. Eankin. What is the date of that letter?
Mr, BusBF.Y. January 8, 1947. Mr. Flemming pleaded with me not
to expose the information I had at that time on Mr. Marzani, and he
also stated that if I did not expose it, that he was almost certain they
could bring about an indictment of Mr. Marzani.
I served what was in effect an ultimatum on Mr. Flemming that I
would give them exactl}^ 14 days to indict Mr. Marzani. Twelve days
after this conference Mr. Marzani was indicted and, as you know,
was convicted. Unfortunately, he was only convicted for falsifying
his statements to the State Department and not convicted for his Com-
munist activities, because notwithstanding the fact this letter was
1947, the Civil Service Commission had a record of Mr. Marzani in
their files as far back as 1942 after his Communist affiliations were
known and under his Connnunist Party name of Tony Wales.
Reading further from the letter :
With regard to the case of Nathan Gregory Silvermaster, this case first came to
the attention of the Commission when the Board of Economic Warfare requested
his transfer from the Department of Agriculture. While Mr. Silvermaster had
been in the Federal service since 1935, he held excepted positions and was not
under the Commission's jurisdiction. The rating examiner of the Investigations
Division recommended ineligibity, which recommendation was concurred in by
the reviewer and the Chief of the Investigations Division. Two staff members
reviewed the file and concurred in the recommendation of ineligibility. The
Executive Director and Chief Examiner likewise recommended ineligibility. At
this point, further investigation was decided iipon. Before this was completed,
the Board of Economic Warfare advised the Commission that they were no longer
interested in Mr. Silvermaster, and the investigation was discontinued because
we no longer had jurisdiction.
Mr. Silvermaster's case again came to the attention of the Commission when
the Procurement Division of the Treasury Department requested his transfer
I'rom the Department of Agriculture. The case was referred to the Loyalty
Rating Board for consideration. The Loyalty Rating Board requested further
investigation. Upon review of this case, the Loyalty Rating Board examiner
recommended ineligibility, and the Loyalty Ratina Board concurred in the
reconunendatiou of ineligibility.
The Commission, in reviewing this case, relied chiefly upon the testimony con-
tained in the files of the Military Intelligence Division, which revealed that the
then Under Secretary of Wai'. .Indue Robert P. Patterson, on July 3, 1942, wrote
to the Honorable Milo INn-kins, P>oard of Ectinomic Warfare, Washington, D. C,
to the effect that "I have personallv made an examination of the case and have
discussed it with Major Gen. G. V. Strong, G-2. I am fully satisfied that the
facts do not sliow anything derogatoi-y to Mr. Silvermaster's character or loyalty
to the United States, and that the charges in the report of June 3 are unfounded."
The Commission relied on the further fact that on July 1, 1944, the President's
Interdepartmental Connnittee advised the Department of Agriculture as follows:
"It is the opinion of the Committee that the record as submitted does not con-
tain sufficient infoi-niation to warrant charges pursuant to the statutes which
prohibit the retention in Government sei'vice of a person who is a member of an
organization which advocates the overthrow of the Government of the United
States by force or violence, or wlio personally so advocates."
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 629
The Commission rated Mr. Silvermaster eligible for transfer to the Treasury
Department.
Prior to tlie date of your letter of January 6, 1947. the Commission authorized
the review of borderline cases in order that they may be i-eviewed in the light of
present-day standards. The Silvermaster ease was included among those to be
reviewed. Upon review, the Commission will inform you of any action it may
decide to take.
Very sincerely yours,
Arthur S. Flemming,
Commissioner.
Later I received a letter dated February 24, 1947, in which Mr.
Flemming stated, and I read his letter :
Dear Mr. Busbey : In a previous communication addressed to you I indicated
that the Commission was reviewing the case of Nathan Gregory Silvermaster and
that I would provide you witli a report of the action taken as a result of this
review.
A majority of tlie Commission has decided tliat inasmuch as Mi\ Silvermaster
is no longer in the Government service, it is not now necessary for the Commis-
sion to reconsider its previous action, but that his name should be flagged so that
if he does come into the Government service again, the qiiestion of his suitability
can be given further consideration.
Tlie minutes of the Connnission will show that I dissent from this action on
the ground that he should in my judgment be barred at this time for an indefinite
period from Federal employment.
Very sincerely yours,
Arthtje S. Flemming,
Comrnissioner.
I want to call attention to one especially significant part of Mr.
Flemming's letter of January 8, 1947. He said that the examiner on the
Loyalty Rating Board and the Loyalty Rating Board itself recom-
mended ineligibility but that the Civil Service Commission in holding
that Silverma.ster was qualified for Government employment on the
question of loyalty relied chiefly on the recommendation of the Under
Secretary of War, Robert P. Patterson, and further relied on the
opinion of the Interdei^artmental Committee. Mr. Flemming did not
advise me that he knew the basis for Secretary Patterson's recom-
mendation or the opinion of the Interdepartmental Committee. There-
fore, I am bound to conclude that he did not know why such favorable
recommendations were made. This case is proof of the fact that the
Civil Service Commission ignored the recommendations of its quali-
fied personnel and succumbed to the whims and wishes of those of
higher authority.
Before I leave Mr. Flemming's letter of January 8, 1947, I want
to call attention to one thing that seems to me is the key to the question
as to how persons of questionable loyalty secured Government posi-
tions. Mr. Flemming says that the Commission authorized the review
of border-line cases in the light of present-day standards.
As I stated earlier, ]Mr. Flemming told Congress on December 12,
1940, that the policy of the Civil Service Commission was to resolve
all doubts in favor of the Government.
I will leave it to the committee after the testimony they have
already heard from witnesses as to whether that was a true statement
or not.
Several years later when questioned before the same subcommittee
as to this statement of policy, Mr. Flemming stated that it was still
in effect. If the rule in 1940^ and 1943 was to disqualify immediately
all persons who had any association with Communists or the German
630 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Bund, Mr. Flemming should be called upon to say when the rule was
changed and why.
Referring now to Mr. Flemming's letter of February 24, 1947. It is
most interesting. He says that inasmuch as Mv. Silvermaster is no
longer in the Government service it would not be necessary for the
Commission to reconsider its previous action but a majority of the
Commissioners agreed to flag Mr. Silvermaster — in the event he does
enter the Government service again his case will be given further
consideration.
Mr. Flemming called my attention to the fact that he dissented
with the majority as he thought Mr. Silvermaster should be barred
from further Government employment for an indefinite period.
What I would like to know is when Mr. Flemming changed his mind.
He should be called before this committee and asked to explain why
he agreed that Silvermaster was suitable for Government employment
one day and of the opinion he should be barred indefinitely another
day, all on the same record. Is not this ample evidence of the incon-
sistency of the actions of the Civil Service Commission and does it not
show tiiat the Civil Service Commission is not the proper Government
agency to administer a loyalty prosram?
If the records of the Civil Service Commission were made available
to a committee of Congress we would learn how the Tippetts, the
Thomas I. Emersons, the Nathan Gregory Silvermasters, the Jose-
jjhine Herbsts, the Donald Wheelers, the Carl Marzanis, the Michael
Greenbergs, and hundred of such ilk were approved for Government
employment.
I might say that on November 29 and December 2 of 1943 I made
two speeches on this very subject on the floor of the House, which
were responsible for my being asked to go on the Committee on Un-
American Activities at that time, and the information was denied
us on some hundred-odd employees we had under consideration at
the time. We were denied access to such information. The Civil
Service Commission does not want such record exposed to the light of
publicity. They do not want it to become known how totally unquali-
fied they were to administer an adequate loyalty program. One of the
most outstanding examples of the ability of the Communists to en-
sconce themselves in highly confidential Government positions is the
case of Carl Aldo Marzani. The Civil Service Commission knew
that Marzani had been an organizer for the Communist Party on
New York City's East Side ; they knew he had signed and circulated
Communist Party nominating petitions and in fact they had all the
information that was later introduced in the trial of Marzani. Yet the
Civil Service Commission put its stamp of approval on Marzani.
This, in my opinion, is the grossest kind of malfeasance and the per-
sons who ignored the evidence and recommended and rated Marzani
eligible should be indicted.
The record of the Civil Service Commission reveals all too plainly
that they placed incompetent and unqualified persons in positions
that enabled them to nullify the outstanding work of a corps of able
investigators.
On November 29, 1943, from the floor of the House I revealed the
instructions issued by the Civil Service Commission to its investi-
gators. Those instructions had the effect of hamstringing the loyalty
I
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 631
inquiries. I later learned that these instructions were prepared by
Alfred Klein, the chief attorney for the Civil Service Commission.
JNIr. Hebert. Mr. Chairman, will Mr. Busbey yield and allow me
to ask a question in order to identify the member of the Civil Service
Commission'^
Mv. Busbey, Yes.
Mr. Hebert. Was he a Republican or a Democrat ?
Mr. Busbey. I am very sorry to say he is supposed to be a Re-
publican appointee on the Civil Service Commission, but in my judg-
ment, in view of his record, I have never recognized him as such.
[Laughter.]
Mr, Hebert. But he was the Republican member of the Commis-
sion ?
Mr. Busbey. Well, the Republican Party had nothing to do with
recommending or sponsoring or O. K.'ing Mr, Flemming's appoint-
ment to the Commission, It was done on the absolute authority of the
President of the United States at that time, Franklin Delano Roose-
velt, without consulting anyone, and Mr, Roosevelt picked him up as a
Republican.
Sir. Hebert, Of course, Mr. Busbey, we southerners have much
sympathy with such problems as you Republicans have.
Mr. Rankin. Governor Dewey was appointed by a Democratic
mayor of New York, you will remember.
Mr, Bi^sBEY, Mr, Chairman, I would like permission of the chair-
man to allow me to incorporate into the record at this point the
entire instructions to the investigators of the Civil Service Commis-
sion, released on November 3, 1943. I do not want to take the time
of the committee to read the entire document but there are just one
or two paragraphs of instructions that I think are very pertinent to
what vou are investigating.
Instruction No. 3 says :
Do not ask any question whatever involving* the applicant's sympathy with
Loyalists in Spain. This means that the investigator should avoid not only
asking about the applicant's sympathy with the Spanish War, but no reference
should be made to any such organizations as the Abraham Lincoln Brigade or
any other of the many Spanish relief groups. The whole matter of the war in
Spain should be scrupulously avoided by the investigator as having any bearing
on procommunism.
Now, anybody that knows anything about the Spanish situation
knows that the Loyalists in Spain and the Abraham Lincoln Brigade
were definitely 100-percent Communist outfits. The Veterans of the
Abraham Lincoln Brigade has been on the list of Attorney General
Tom Clark as one of the Communist-front organizations.
I may say in passing that while this instruction 3 on this instruc-
tion sheet refers to the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, on Tom Clark's
list it appears as Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. The
reason it appears as Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade is that
those who are not veterans didn't come back.
No. 4 reads :
Do not ask any quest lop about membership in the Washington Book Sliop or
any book shop in any city similai" to the Washington Book Shop.
Now, mind you, gentlemen, these are the instructions of the Com-
mission to those investigators that prohibited them from finding out
632 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGP]
anything about any Communist activities of anyone they were in-
vestigating.
Mr. Rankin. Will the gentleman yield?
Mr, BusBEY. Yes.
Mr. Rankin. The same rule applies under the FEPC in the State
of New York. You can't ask a man those questions. A man who is
employing employees under the law of that State can't ask a man
Avhere he is from or what his name was before it was changed or what
organizations he belongs to. This is following in the wake of that.
Mr. MuNDT. You may proceed.
Mr. BusBEY. Instruction No. 5 reads :
In asking an applicant whether he knows a certain individual, that individual
should not be characterized in any way so as to show the individual's views
or leanings. For illustration, an applicant should not be asked : "Do you know
Jolni Jones, reputed to be a Communist?" Tlie question, if at all necessary,
should be : "Do you know John Jones, and what has been the nature of your
association with him?"
Rule 6 reads :
Do not ask a husband, who is an applicant, questions about his wife and do
not ask a wife, who is an applicant, questions about her husband. Ask the
applicant only as to matters liaving to do with himself but not with members
of his family or others.
I am going to show you in just a moment where that is essential
because there is a certain person in a key position in this Government
whose wife has been a Iniown Communist out in the open for many
years.
Mr. Rankin. That same regulation is written into the FEPC law
in New York.
Mr. McDowell. What is the difference?
Mr. Rankin. It is just this: The Communists seem to have got
their hands in this FEPC in the State of New York and all over the
country and it is just the same old pattern. They have written those
regulations, just exactly what the gentleman from Illinois has read
there. They have written the same regulations into the law of the
State of New York, which was signed by Mr. Dewey with 22 pens.
Mr. BusBEY. Skipping down to instruction 8 :
In speaking to the applicant or to a witness, do not characterize an organiza-
tion as communistic or Fascist. Do not characterize it at all. Do not say, "We
have information that you have been active in the Intei-national Labor Defense, a
Communist organization." Say, rather: "We have information that you have
been connected with the International Labor Defense. Have you been asso-
ciated with this organization ard what has been the nature of such as.sociation?"
I will read just one more instruction, No. 9 :
Do not ask a witness any question in such form that the witness may derive
information regarding the applicant which he otherwise would not have.
Just get that, will you ? Just let me read that again :
Do not ask a witness any question in such form that the witness may derive
infttrmation regarding tlie applicant which he otherwise would not have.
To continue with the balance of No. 9 :
Remember that your task is to obtain information:and not give information.
Do not ask a witness whether John Jones, the applicant, is a Communist unless
you immediately follow with the question whether John Jones is a Fascist or
pro-Nazi. The same applies with respect to the questioning of the applicant
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 633
Gentlemen of the committee, I might say that that document is the
basis for the Conmuniists coming into the Government and hamstring-
ing any investigation. As a result of that investigation going out
to the investigators in the field, practically all of the good investigators
of the Civil Service Commission were so disgusted with having their
hands tied, men who had been in this field for many years, they
quit the Commission and they had nobody down there who knows
anything about the subject of communism.
(The instructions to the regional directors follow:)
United States Civil Service Commission,
Washington, D. C, November 3, 1943.
Regional Directors:
The Manual of Instructions on Loyalty Investigations, which was fully dis-
cussed with regional directors and a copy of which was placed in the hands of
every regional director and investigator in charge for the guidance of investi-
gators, contained detailed information regarding methods of investigation and
questions to be avoided. Previously definite instructions had been issued that no
questions should be asked regarding union membership or activities. It has
i-ecently come to the attention of the Commission that investigators have been
asking persons under investigation, and witnesses, questions which the Commis-
sion had specifically directed should not be asked. In order that such offenses
be not repeated, there is set forth below a list of the things investigators should
continually have in mind. Copies of these instructions should be immediately
placed in the hands of every investigator.
1. Under no circumstances should any question be asked of an applicant or
a witness involving union membership, union associations, or union activities.
Not only should the applicant not be asked about membership in a union but any
question should l)e avoided which might elicit from the applicant or from a witness
union membership or activities.
2. If in the course of the investigation witnesses say that a certain person is
a Communist because he has associated with certain persons in a union known
or said to be Communists, the investigator should not ask the applicant about
his association with these particular individuals, since the asking of such ques-
tions would expose the Conunission to the charge tliat this is an indirect way of
connecting the applicant with union activities. In other words, the question of
unionism should not be brought up in any way in an investigation, either directly
or indirectly.
3. Do not ask any question whatever involving the applicant's sympathy with
Loyalists in Spain. This means that the investigator should avoid not only ask-
ing about the applicant's sympathy in the Spanish war but no reference should
be made to any such organizations as the Abraham Lincoln Brigade or any otlier
of the many Spanish relief groups. The wliole matter of the war in Spain should
be scrupulously avoided by the investigator as having any bearing on procom-
munism.
4. Do not ask any question about membership in the Washington Book Shop
or any book shop in any city similar to the Washington Book Shop.
5. In asking an applicant whether he knows a certain individual, that indi-
vidual should not be characterized in any way so as to show the individual's views
or leanings. For illustration, an applicant should not be asked : "Do you know
Jolm Jones, I'eputed to be a Communist?" The question, if at all necessary,
should be : "Do you know Jolm Jones, and what has been the nature of your
association with him?"
6. Do not ask a husband, who is an applicant, questions about his wife, and
do not ask a wife, who is an applicant, questions about her husband. Ask the
applicant only as to matters having to do with himself but not with members
of his family or others.
7. During the special interview never argue with the applicant or indicate that
you think he is evasive. Simply ask the question and record the answer. If it
is your opinion that the applicant is evasive or untruthful, you may say so in
your report and give the basis for your statement.
8. In speaking to the applicant or to a witness do not characterize an organi-
zation as communistic or Fascist. Do not characterize it at all. Do not say :
"We have information that you have been active in the International Labor
634 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Defense, a Communist organization." Say, rather : "We have information that
you have been connected with the International Labor Defense. Have you been
associated with this organization and what has been the nature of such asso-
ciation?"
9. Do not asls a witness any question in such form that the witness may
derive information regarding the applicant which he otherwise would not have.
Remember that your task is to obtain information and not give information. Do
not ask a witness whether John Jones, applicant, is a Communist unless you
immediately follow with the question whether John Jones is a Fascist or pro-
Nazi. The same applies with respect to the questioning of the applicant.
10. Under no circumstances ask any question or make any statement to the
applicant or to a witness relating directly or indirectly to the color, race, creed,
or religion of an applicant or witness.
11. Obtain all available information from witnesses which will help establish
whether the applicant was a Communist Party line conformist. Do not discuss
the party line with the applicant or with witnesses. Familiarize yourself thor-
oughly with the party line test and ask questions which will s]iecifically bring
out whether the applicant changed his views at certain periods but do not men-
tion party line unless the witness offers the information that the applicant did
follow the Communist Party line. In.that event ask the witness specillcally what
statement or actions on the part of the applicant he has in mind or knows
about which leads him to the conclusion that the applicant was a party line
follower. Again, have in mind it is not your function to argue or give informa-
tion but merely to elicit information. Attached hereto you will find a statement
which will help you to understand what is meant by the Communist Party line.
12. Do not ask any question regarding the type of reading matter read by
the applicant. This includes especially the Daily Worker and all radical and
liberal publications. Remember that the mere fact that a person reads a certain
publication is no indication that he believes in the principles advocated by such
publication. Citizens are free to read anything they like.
13. Do not ask any questions as to so-called mixed parties, that is to say,
whether the applicant associates with Negroes or has had Negroes in his home.
14. Do not ask regarding membership or interest in the Lawyers Guild, the
American Civil Liberties Union, the Socialist Party, the League of Women
Shoppers, or the Harry Bridges Defense Committee. This is not a complete
list of organizations about which no questions should be asked, but investigators
should avoid asking any questions regarding any organization unless it has
been authoritatively designated as subversive. If the investigator is in doubt the
best policy is not to ask the question.
15. Do not ask general questions regarding the political philosophy of the
applicant, such as, whether he believes in capitalism or what his opinion is re-
garding certain events of a current or historical nature.
16. Do not ask intimate personal questions. Do not ask such questions as
come under the category of "snooping."
17. Exercise intelligence. Keep in mind what you are looking for. Remember
that you are investigating the loyalty of the applicant to the United States. You
are not investigating whether his views are unorthodox or do not conform with
those of the majority of the people. What you are looking for is to determine
whether there is evidence that the applicant's interest in the welfare of another
country transcends his interest in the welfare of the United States. Remember
that a question of an improper nature will result in criticism of, and embarrass-
ment to, the Conmiission. Do not ask any question which is immaterial and
has no bearing on the ultimate issue involved.
18. The investigator conducting a loyalty investigation should also conduct
any special hearing which may be required. However, newly employed investi-
gators or investigators without experience in loyalty cases should discuss the
questions to be asked during the special hearing with their supervisors. Where
feasible an investigator thoroughly experienced in loyalty matters should sit in
on all special hearings in which derogatory information relative to loyalty is
to be discussed.
From time to time you will receive additional instructions as to what to do
and what not to do in the course of investigation of loyalty cases. The foregoing
instructions are to be rigidly observed and any deviation therefrom will be
cause for disciplinary action.
L. A. MOYER,
Executive Director and Chief Examiner.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 635
Mr. Alfred Klein, who wrote those instructions, is the same Klein
whose decision in one case has been so widely quoted. Mr. Klein said :
If I had to express an opinion as to whetlier the applicant is a Communist, my
reply would be in the afiirniative. However, I am constrained to recommend
that the applicant be rated eligible.
]Mr. Klein should be called upon to tell who or what constrained him
to recommend eligibility for a person he believed to be a Communist.
However, Mr. Klein is one of the men whose opinions on loyalt}^ cases
the Civil Service Commission considered essential. Such infantile
remarks amply demonstrate the unfitness of this Commission official
to judge any case involving loyalty. It is my opinion that it is safe to
say that the records of the Civif Service Commission contain many
such idiotic remarks by Mr. Klein.
Mr. Raxkin. How do you spell that name Klein?
Mr. BusBEY. K-1-e-i-n.
]\Ir. Rankin. Is that Alfred Klein?
Mr. BusEEY. Yes. Call it malfeasance, misfeasance, nonfeasance, or
what you will, it supports my contention that the Civil Service Com-
mission bungled the job of keeping undesirables from the Government
service.
Now that these disloyal and potentially disloyal persons did succeed
in getting into Government positions, the question arose after VJ-day
of how to get them out.
On March 21. 1947, the President issued an Executive order prescrib-
ing procedures for the administration of an employees loyalty program-
in the executive branch of the Government. This orcler placed the
responsibility on the Federal Bureau of Investigation for conducting
all lo3'alty investigations. It placed the responsibility on the Civil
Service Commission to see that disloyal persons were not permitted to
obtain Government positions and it placed the responsibility on the
head of each department and agency to see that disloyal employees
are not retained.
The Executive order also established within the Civil Service Com-
mission "'a Loyalty Review Board of not less than three impartial
persons."
Congress was then asked to appropriate funds to carry out the provi-
sions of this Executive order. To date Congress has appropriated
$7,000,000 to the Civil Service Commission to be used exclusively on
the loyalt}' program as enunciated in the President's Executive order.
Half of this amount was appropriated for the fiscal year of 1948 and
the other half for the fiscal year of 1949. Thus we know that the
Civil Service Commission has spent at least 314 million dollars during
the fiscal year of 1948 in ridding the Government service of persons of
questionable loj^alty.
Xow, let's look at the effectiveness of the manner in which this loyalty
program has been administered. I'll give but two examples, one case
under the jurisdiction of the Civil Service Commission and the other
case under the jurisdiction of the liead of an agency.
The first case is that of William Remington. This man was per-
mitted to transfer from one Government agenc}^ to another without
any clearance from the FBI. According to the recent testimony of
Miss Elizabeth Bentley, she informed the FBI in 1945 of her associa-
tion and the activities of Remington. Now one of two things oc-
■636 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
ciirred — either the Civil Service Commission permitted tlie transfer of
Eemington without benefit of a report from the FBI or they per-
jnitted the transfer without regard to the information from the FBI.
In either case the Civil Service Connnission erred.
The other case is that of Jesse Epstein, employed by the Federal
Public Housing Committee.
Incidentally, if you want to read the record of Mr. Jesse Epstein,
I recommend a reading of the first report of un-American activities in
Washington State that is just off the press. His whole history is in
there.
Mr. Epstein was identified as a member of the professional unit of
the Communist Party in Seattle, Wash. The loyalty board of the
Federal Public Housing Authority, acting under the Presidential di-
rective of March 21, 1947, cleared Mr. Epstein and the Loyalty Review
Board of the Civil Service Commission approved it.
These tAvo cases, standing alone, show the ineffectiveness of the
Civil Service Commission and the Executive order. Further proof is
the statement of the chairman of the Loyalty Review Board made
several days ago that no Government employee had been removed
from the service under the provisions of the Executive order.
That is quoted in the Washington News of July 28. He admits
that not a single person has been removed from tlie pay rolls under
this Executive order, notwithstanding the fact they have spent,
or I should say squandered, these millions of dollars of the tax-
■ p)ayers' money.
Mr. MuNDT. Can you identify the man who made that statement ?
Mr. BusBEY. The man referred to in the paper as having made that
statement is Mr. Seth Richardson, of the Loyalty Review Board.
Mr. MuNDT. Thank you.
Mr. BusBEY. The Federal Bureau of Investigation is spending the
funds Congress appropriated in the manner contemplated. They have
conducted thousands of investigations as provided by the Executive
order and they are still making investigations. In view of the recent
disclosures before two congressional committees, no one can be heard
to say that the FBI is without information about the questionable
activities of Government employees. But what good has it done ?
The Civil Service Commission has failed miserably in its duty and
the Executive order has proved to be worthless as an instrument to
rid the Government of employees of questionable loyalty.
The Civil Service Commission cannot be heard to say that they did
not have sufficient funds to carry out the part assigned to them by the
Executive order.
Mr. Chairman, I am leading up to simply this: On March 22, 1947,
President Truman issued Executive Order 9835, ostensibly for the pur-
pose of ridding the Federal Government of Communists, Communist
sympathizers, fellow travelers, and anyone considered disloyal or
subversive.
The following day, Sunday, March 23, 1947, papers were carrying
big headlines to the effect that they would be removed, and I quote
from the Washington Post. "Truman wants disloyal employees fired";
the Times-Herald carried a big headline on the same date, "Truman
wants reds fired from U. S. jobs." In the Washington Star of the
same date appeared the headline, "Truman Avants FBI to weed out
all disloyal Federal workers."
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 637
The people of the United States were exceedingly happy over this
turn of events and thought the President sincere in his announcement.
Under Executive Order 08o5 a Loyalty Keview Board was set up in
the United States Civil Service Commission to handle these cases;
but, notwithstanding the fact that Congress to date has appropriated
over; $17,000,000 for this specific purpose in cooperation with the
President, in the hope that he was sincere in his statement, the results
so far are zero. It is my personal opinion that outside of the work
done by the FBI and the records they have compiled from the amount
that was allotted to them, the money has been squandered and abso-
lutely no results obtained.
It is not surprising to me that this Loyalty Review Board has done
nothing, because if you will look over the 23 names originaly appointed
to this Board you will readily come to the conclusion that not a single
one of them is qualified to pass on cases of loyalty or security risk. It
is my belief that if the President of the L^nited States had been sincere
in wanting to rid the Federal Government of the hundreds of unde-
sirables he would have insisted that a board of coiupetent and experi-
enced men in the field of communism be appointed.
It was shameful and disgraceful to have misled the American people
into thinking that something was going to be done by the present
administration to clean out all of these undesirables in order to detract
their minds from the fact that the Civil Service Commission had not
performed its duty in declaring these people ineligible and removing'
them from the pay roll.
I am well aware of the terrific smear campaign carried on against
this committee and its members by tlie Communists of this country
in order to discredit the work you have been doing to see that only
people whose loyalty cannot be questioned remain on the pay roll. The
l^eople of this countrj^ owe undying gratitude to this committee for the
wonderful work being done at the ]iresent time.
It is my further opinion that if President Truman was sincere in
his desire to rid our Federal Government of employees from high
places in important key positions who are definitely a security risk
to the future welfare and security of our Government, in light of
present-day conditions, he would want all departments of Govern-
ment to make available immediately all information in the files of
the various departments, the FBI, and the Civil Service Commission,
to all proper congressional investigating committees. The fact that
he has thrown every possible obstacle in the wa}^ of this committee, as
well as other committees, from obtaining information that is rightly
due them can only lead to one conclusion, in my mind, and that is that
he does not want the truth to come out because it would be em-
barrassing to the present administration and reflect on the heads of
the various departments who, notwithstanding the fact that they
have had information given them which is in their files at the present
time, have not had the courage to take the necessary steps to sever
these individuals from the pay roll or have willfully neglected to do
so for political reasons. The investigation your committee is now
conducting is far above any partisan consideration. Loyalty to one's
country comes ahead of any political part3\
One more suggestion and I am through. I think this Committee
to Investigate Un-American Activities should constantly appeal to
the conscience of other people like Miss Bentle}^, Professor Budenz,
638 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
and Mr. Whittaker Chambers to repudiate their Communist comrades
and come forward to give testimony in behalf of our country.
In view of the little we have learned of the activities of the Civil
Service Commission in placing, or allowing to be placed, Communists
and Communist sympathizers in important Government positions,
I am firmly convinced that if President Truman was sincere h\ his
desire to remove from the Government service all persons of ques-
tionable loyalty, he would not have delegated any authority under
his Executive order to the Civil Service Commission.
jVIr. MuNDT. I have no questions. The Congressman has made a
very excellent statement here.
I would like to say that if he or any other person should go down
to the chambers of the Committee on Un-American Activities now,
they would probably find four or five agents of the Civil Service
Commission down there checking the files of the committee in tlieir
loyalty investigation. They will also probably find several FBI
agents there, and also agents from the Navy, the State Department,
the Treasury Department, and every other agency of the Govern-
ment. Those men have been there, if I am correct, about 22,000
times since those files were made available to all proper agencies of
tlie United States Government.
In view of the fact that it is becoming more and more difficult
for committees of either the House or the other body to get any
information from the executive branch of the Government, I am
wondering if it wouldn't be a good idea for the committee to over-
haul its thinking on those matters, and I intend to suggest that at
our executive meeting this afternoon.
That is all I have. Are there any questions ?
Mr. BusBEY. I can personally testify to the correctness of your
statement or observation, because I am in the files of your committee
nearly every day, and I see these people working there from these
various agencies of Government.
Mr. McDowell. That is right ; and I check them every day.
Mr. Eankix. Mr. Chairman, this committee has consistently sup-
plieil information to the various departments of the Government, and
until tlie FBI is made an independent agency, the various departments
of the Government are going to have to look to this committee for
such information, and I don't think we should withhold it from them
if they are honestly attempting to secure it.
Mr. BusBEY. Mr. Chairman, in connection with this matter I think
it would be well if I would be so bold as to suggest to the committee
that when Mr. Wallace was Secretary of Agriculture and the AAA i^ro-
gram was established, you will find many of these individuals whose
names are coming out in this investigation were members of that AAA
program. Such names as Lee Pressman, Alger Pliss, Nathan Witt, and,
as you will recall. Professor Tugwell were down there at that time.
From my observations and my conclusions I would say that while the
AAA program was established in the Department of Agriculture un-
der Henry Wallace, that could rightfully be termed the spawning
ground of all Coinmunists in Government, because from this little
group in the AAA, they fanned out into all branches of Government.
I respectfully suggest that it might be worth while to go back into
the old rolls in 1033. One of the key movers down there was a
Harold Ware, the son of Ella Reeve Bloor, affectionately known among
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 639
tlie Comniiinists as Mother Bloor, and he was one of the keymen at
that time in bi-inoiug- Communists into this Government, and they
were fanning out from the spawning ground down there in the AAA.
I might respectfully suggest not only to the committee but to every-
one that they read the remarks of Chairman Rees, of the Committee
on Civil Service and Post Office, in yesterday's Record, on page 9935.
They are quite enlightening on this subject.
Mr, Mi^NDT. Ml". Nixon.
■ Mr. Nixox. Mr. Busbey, I understand from j^our statement that
Gregory Silvermaster is still eligible for Government employment;
and that as far as the Civil Service Commission is concerned, the door
is still open for him to come into the Government.
jNIr. Bi 8BEY. As far as I know, there is nothing in the Civil Service
Commission files that would prevent him coming back. There is
information which, in my opinion, should prevent him coming back
to the Government, but they would take the case under consideration
if he applied again.
Uv. 3.IUNDT. :Mr. Hebert.
]\Ir. Hebert. No questions.
Mr. MuxDT. ;Mr. Rankin.
Mr. Rankin. If they go to New York and they ask for employment,
they can't even ask a man whether he is a Communist, and so he can
find a safe storm cellar.
]Mr. MuNDT. Is there anything further?
Mr. Busbey. Mr. Chairman, I request permission to have inserted in
the record this clipping from the Washington News of Wednesday,
July 28, 1948, and also an article from the Washington Post dated
Wednesday, February 6, 1935.
(The two clippings referred to above are as follows :)
[From the News (Washington), Wednesday, July 2S, 1948]
(Front page:)
Rees To Name United States Workers Who Ought To Be Fired
truman's loyalty check is ineffective, he says
(Page 3:)
Representative Rees To Name Disloyal Workers
(By United Press)
House Post Office and Civil Service Committee Cliairman Edvpard H. Rees
(Republican, Kansas) said today he will name on the House floor sometime in
the next few days some disloyal Government workers who should be dismissed.
He made the statement in charging President Truman's loyalty check on Fed-
eral employees has been ineffective. His Civil Service Committee, he added, in-
tends to find out why.
Repi-esentative Rees said he was particularly concerned about the 5,510 Federal
job holders whose loyalty was investigated by the FBI in full-scale field inquiries.
He said as far as he can find out, not a single Federal worker has been fired
under the President's $12,000,000 year-old program.
Under the program, the FBI is obliged to investigate the loyalty of any Federal
employee about whom it has derogatory information in its files.
"Aside from the 43S employees who resigned from their positions during FBI
investigations," said Rees, "the program has been ineffective."
Representative Rees set no date for hearings. He said he hopes to get started
during the special session of Congress. If this is not possible, a subcommittee
■ may take over the job after adjournment.
640 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Meantime Rees promised to name on the House floor sometime in the next few
days some Government workers who, he said, ought to be fired. He emphasized,
though, that the overwhelming majority of Federal workers are loyal.
The Kansan said loyalty officials, acting under orders from President Truman,,
have refused his request for information on 5,510 cases in which full FBI investi-
gations have been ordered.
(Chairman Seth Richardson, of the Loyalty Review Board told the United Press
that in cases appealed to his top-level board, no worker has been discharged. He
said he did not know offhand whether individual loyalty boards, within Govern-
ment agencies, had prompted any firings.)
"For more than 3 years," said Rees, "I have urged the executive branch to
eliminate Federal employees who advocate Communist Party doctrines and be-
lieve in the forcible overthrow of our form of government. On numerous occa-
sions I have advised Congress as to the continued employment of persons about
whom there was a reasonable doubt of their loyalty to the United States. In
each instance the executive branch has refused me information."
New Loyalty Inquiry
Representative Ed Rees (Republican, Kansas) says his House Civil Service
Committee will hold hearings on the progress of the Federal employee loyalty
program. And in all probability, these hearings will take place during Congress.
Mr. Rees charged today that, except for the 438 employees who have resigned
while under FBI investigation, the loyalty program has been ineffective.
He said "no information is available" on 5,510 employees found suspect by the
FBI who still remain on their pay roll.
President Truman, Mr. Rees pointed out, has given strict orders that Federal
agencies must not release loyalty case data to Congress without prior approval
from the White House. He implied that this is the reason no information is
available on the 5,510 cases.
During the committee hearings, INIr. Rees said, agency loyalty boards will be
asked to give full details on their policies, procedures, and accomplishments. He
added :
"Unless the FBI investigations are seriously considered by the loyalty boards
and disloyal employees removed from the pay roll, the $12,000,000 spent on the
loyalty program will have been wasted."
[From the Washington Post, Wednesday, February 6, 1935, pp. 1 and 3]
Frank Loses Post in AAA Shake-up
counsel's JOR abolished, duties transferred ; HOWE, ALSO LEFT-WINGER,
BELIEVED ELIMINATED FROM KEY POSITION ; REORGANIZATION VIEWED VICTORY FOR
DAVIS OVER TUG well's FACTION
A drastic shake-up was announced by the Agricultural Adjustment Adminis-
tration last night, resulting in elimination of Jerome Frank, one of the best-known
New Deal legal lights and a close associate of Under Secretary of Agriculture
Rexford Guy Tugwell.
Frank's post as counsel for AAA was abolished and its functions transferred
to the office of the Solicitor of the Department of Agriculture.
Another well-known left-winger, Frederic C. Howe, consumers' counsel, appears
to have been shuffled out of his key position. His post was merged into a new
operating council. It was understood he would not retain his position, but
whether he would remain in some other capacity was not clear.
Three others in the Administration are understood to have resigned, two of
them members of Frank's legal staff. They are Victor Rotman, Chief of the
Marketing Agreement Section, and Francis M. Shea, Cliief of the Opinion Section.
The third resignation was that of Howe's assistant, Gardner Jackson, who was
recently mentioned by Representative Hamilton Fish as having contributed,
among others, to the rank and file committee seeking to promote a bonus march
on Washington.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 641
It was uncertain as to what another of Frank's assistants, Alger Hiss, would
do. It was understood Mr. David would be glad to retain him. He was recently-
assigned to assist Senator Nye's connuittee in its munitions investigation.
Lee Pressman, another member of Frank's legal staff, may resign.
TJie regTouping brought a number of subordinates into the new operating
council, which will function under Chester C. Davis, AAA Administrator.
Tliis development, which has been brewing for some time, appeared to be a
blow at the Tugwell wing in the Agriculture Department. Dr. Tugwell himself
is in Florida. In some quarters it was said he had no advance notice of the
reorganization. The shift was interpreted as indicating a victory for Mr. Davis
in an internal struggle with the brain trust left-wingers.
Officials said no specific thing caused the reorganization, but there was a con-
flict in personal views with Chester Davis and as was said lie had encountered
resistance in attempts to have his policies carried out.
Davis has held the function of the consumers' counsel was to analyze policies
and criticize them from the point of view of the consumer, reporting to the Admin-
istrator. It was said that Davis had been displeased in a number of instances
where the consumers' counsel chose to champion its views through publicity, thus
carrying its battle to the public instead of confining the discussions to officials
in the AAA.
Numerous clashes liave occurred over the AAA milk policies, with the con-
sumers' counsel charging that the Administration was too lenient with the middle-
men and distributors. The consumers' counsel challenged the action of the AAA
in dismissing two subordinate officials. Tlie counsel alleged the men were dropped
because of activities in fighting middlemen, while AAA officials insisted that they
had been impractical and visionary in attempts to handle the milk problems.
The .shake-up was reminiscent of a previous explosion more than a year ago
when George N. Peek was forced out as co-Admhiistrator of AAA after a bitter
controversy with Jerome Frank, who was bacl^ed by Dr. Tugwell. Brain trust
forces lost that battle, just as they appear to have lost ground in the present
shake-up.
Davis has insisted on a more conciliatory attitude toward business interests
involved in AAA policies, while Frank and his group insisted upon more drastic
regulatory measures.
The following announcement was issued at 7 o'clock last night :
"Reorganization of the Agricultural Adjustment Administration was announced
today by Chester C. Davis, Administrator.
"Mr. Davis announced that the reorganization follows several months of study
of ways and means to make the Administration a more efficient operating unit
of the Department of Agriculture.
CONSOLIDATION OF UNITS
"The reorganization will consolidate the AAA I^gal Division with the Office
of the Solicitor of the Department of Agriculture, will subdivide the Commodi-
ties Division into several smaller divisions reporting directly to the Adminis-
trator's office, and set up an operating council lieaded by tlie Secretary of Agri-
culture and the Administrator, with other executives as members.
"Effective at once and in conformity with the practice otherwise obtaining
in the Department of Agriculture, the legal work of the Agriculture Adjustment
Administration will be performed under the supervision and direction of the
Solicitor of the Department.
"In addition to the Secretary of Agriculture and the Administrator, members
of the operating council with their divisions include A. G. Black, in charge of
all livestock, including corn-hogs, cattle, and sheep ; Ward M Buckles, finance,
with the Office of the Comptroller transferred under his direction ; Cully A.
Cobb, cotton ; Victor A. Christgau, commodities purchase, agricultural labor,
drought, and other emergency programs ; J. B. Hutson, tobacco, sugar, peanuts,
and rice; George A. Farrell, wheat, flax, barley, rye, and other grains; Alfred D.
Stednian, information ; Jesse W. Tapp, dairy and other marketing agreements
and licenses, general crops, and field investigation; H R. Tolley, planning; Seth
Thomas, Solicitor of the Department .of Agriculture; the consumers counsel.
"The reorganization will group the sections of the Commodities Division into
six smaller divisions, each covering closely related activities."
80408 — 48 10
642 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
BROUGHT IN BY TUG WELL
Frank was brought into the AAA by Tugwell, to whom he had been recom-
mended by Felix Frankfurter, the Harvard legal light who has delivered many
proteges to the New Deal legal staff.
Secretary Wallace and Tugwell attempted first to make Frank Solicitor of
the Department, but this was blocked by Postmaster General Farley. Where-
upon, Secretary Wallace made him general counsel to»AAA, which the Secretary
had kept out of the general patronage market.
Mr. MuNDT. The Chair wishes to express the appreciation of the
committee for your testimony. You have gotten into a phase of this
investigation which is of very pertinent significance, and that is the
manner in which these Communists and espionage agents have been
able to weasel their way into Government, escape detection, and secure
promotion after they have been there.
What you have said has been very helpful. I have no other (jues-
tions.
The Chair wishes to say that there is something rather strange
and unusual about the fact that we are living in an era when the
executive departments have 22,000 times consulted the files of Un-
American Activities — we are glad to have the executive agencies do
that — ^but it is more than passing strange in my opinion tlfat in this
same era the President's loyalty policy has prevented the Members of
Congress from consulting the loyalty files of the executive department.
Mr. BusBEY. Mr. Chairman, in conclusion, I would like to state that
if it were possible to get into the files of the Civil Service Commission
you would find that they gave clearance to many Communists, Com-
munist sympathizers, and fellow travelers during the war witliout any
investigation whatever.
Mr. MuNDT. Thank you very much, Mr. Busbey.
Call the next witness, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Alger Hiss.
Mr. MuNDT. Are you Mr. Alger Hiss ?
Mr. Hiss. Yes; I am.
Mr. MuNDT. Please stand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Hiss. I do.
Mr. MuNDT. Be seated.
TESTIMONY OF ALGEE HISS
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Chairman, may I be permitted to make a brief state-
ment to the committee?
Mr. MuNDT. You may.
Mr. Stripling. Before you proceed, I want you to give the com-
mittee your full name and your i)resent address.
Mr. Hiss. My name is Alger Hiss. My residence is 22 East Eighth
Street, New York City.
Mr. Rankin. AVill you please give your age and place of birth?
Mr. Hiss. I was born in Baltimoi-e, Md., on November 11, 1904. I
am here at my own request to deny unqualifiedly various statements
about me which were made before this committee by one Whittaker
Chambers the day before yesterday. I appreciate the committee's hav-
ing prompt 1}^ granted my request, t welcome the opportunity to an-
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 643
swer to the best of my ability any inquiries the members of this
committee may wish to ask me.
I am not and never have been a member of tlie Communist Party.
I do not and never liave adhered to the tenets of the Communist Party.
I am not and never liave been a member of any Communist-front or-
ganization. I have never followed the Communist Party line, directly
or indirectly. To the best of my knowledge, none o" my friends is a
Communist.
As a State Department official, I have had contacts with representa-
tives of foreign governments, some of whom have undoubtedly been
members of the Connnunist Party, as, for example, representatives of
the Soviet Gt)vernment. My contacts with any foreign representative
who could possibly have been a Communist have been strictly official.
To the best of my knowledge, I jiever heard of Whittaker Chambeis
until in 1047. when two representatives of the Federal Bureau of In-
vestigation asked me if I knew him and various other people, some of
whom I knew and some of whom I did not knoAv. I said I did not know
Chambers. So far as I know, I have never laid eyes on him, and I
should like to have the opportunity to do so.
I have known Henry Collins since we were boys in camp together.
I knew him again while he was at the Harvard Business School while
I was at the Harvard Law School, and I have seen him from time to
time since I came to Washington in 1933.
Lee Pressman was in my class at the Harvard Law School and we
were both on the Harvard Law Review at the same time. We were
also both assistants to Judge Jerome Frank on the legal staff of the
Agricultural Adjustment Administration. Since I left the Depart-
ment of Agriculture I have seen him only occasionally and infre-
quently. I left the Department, according to my recollection, in
1935.
Witt and Abt were both members of the legal staff of the AAA. 1
knew them both in that capacity. I believe I met Witt in New York
a year or so before I came to Washington. I came to Washington
in 1933. We were both practicing law in New York at the time I think
I met Witt.
Kramer was in another office of the AAA, and I met him in that
connection.
I have seen none of these last three men I have mentioned except
most infrequently since I left the Department of Agriculture.
I don't believe I ever knew Victor Perlo.
Except as I have indicated, the statements made about me by Mr.
Chambers are complete fabrications. I think ni}^ record in the Gov-
ernment service speaks for itself.
Mr. MtKTDT. Does that conclude your statement, Mr. Hiss?
Mr. Hiss. It does.
Mr. MuNDT, jVIr. Stripling, have you any questions ?
]\Ir. Stripling. JNlr. Chairman, while the witness answered some of
my questions, I wish to proceed to ask direct questions and get direct
replies.
Mr. MuNDT. You may proceed.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Hiss, would you give the committee a resume
of your educational background, please.
Mr. Hiss. I was educated in the public schools of Baltimore. I
spent 1 year after leaving the Baltimore City College, a high school,
644 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
after graduating there at a preparatory school in Massachusetts. I
then entered Johns Hopkins University from which I graduated with
an A. B. degree in 1926. I then entered the Harvard Law School
from which I graduated in 1929.
Mr. Stripling. Would you now give the committee a brief resume
of your Federal employment.
JNIr. Hiss. My first employment with the Federal Government was
immediately after my graduation from law school when I served as
a secretary to oie of the Associate Justices of the Supreme Court of
the United States. I then went into private practice in Boston and
New York for a period of 3 years or so, and came to Washington on
the request of Government officials in IVIay 1933 as an assistant general
counsel to the xVgricultural Adjustment Administration.
Mr. Eankin. Will you give the name of that Justice, please.
Mr. Hiss. The Justice was Oliver Wendell Holmes.
Mr. Nixon. Would you please give the names of the Government
officials who requested you to come to Washington with the AAA?
Mr, Hiss. Yes. Judge Jerome Frank was general counsel. He
requested me to come to Washington to be an assistant on his staff.
Mr. Nixon. You said it in the plural. Was he the only one then ?
Mr. Hiss. There were some others. Is it necessary? There are so
many witnesses who use names rather loosely before your committee,
and I would rather limit mj^self .
Mr. Nixon. You made the statement
Mr. Hiss. The statement is correct.
Mr. Nixon. I don't question its correctness, but you indicated that
several Government officials requested you to come here and you have
issued a categorical denial to certain statements that were made by
Mr. Chambers concerning people that you were associated with in
Government. I think it would make your case much stronger if you
would indicate what Government officials.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, regardless of whether it strengthens my case
or not, I would prefer, unless you insist, not to mention any names in
my testimony that I don't feel are absolutely necessary. If you insist
on a direct answer to your question, I will comply.
Mr. Nixon. I would like to have a direct answer to tlie question.
Mr. Hiss. Another official of the Government of the United States
who strongly urged me to come to Washington after I had told Judge
Fi'ank I did not think I could financially afford to do so — and I am
answering this only because you ask it — was Justice Felix Frank-
furter.
Mr. Nixon. Is that all ?
Mr. Hiss. That is all I care to say now.
Mr. Nixon. Tliere were other officials, however?
Mr. Hiss. When I came to Washington for interviews with respect
to my proposed appointment, I also talked naturally to the Admin-
istrator of the Agricultural Adjustment Administration, who would
have been my main chief. His name was George Peek. The co-
Administrator was Charles Bryan. Both of them urged me to
join the legal staff.
Mr. Nixon. That completes the group ?
Mr. Hiss. That completes it as far as I am concerned. I might"
think of a few others.
i
I
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 645
Mr. Stripling. Would you continue then with the chronology of
your Government employment ?
Mr. Hiss. A Senate committee known as the Committee Investi-
gating the Munitions Industry, of which Senator Nye was the chair-
man, formally requested the ibepartment of Agriculture to lend my
services to that committee in its investigations as their counsel. That
permission was granted and I served on the staff of the Senate com-
mittee. I haven't checked the dates recently, but my recollection is
that this w^as either early in 1934 or the latter part of 19oo. I think
it was early in 1934 when I first started on that committee.
Mr. Stripling. Wliat was your capacity ?
Mr. Hiss. I was counsel. The technical title was legal assistant.
Mr. Stripling. Go right ahead.
Mr. Hiss. AVhen I left the Senate committee I was next employed
in the office of the Solicitor General of the United States at my request,
Mr. Nixon. I apjjlied to the Solictor General for a position. There
was then before that office the constitutionality of the Agricultural
Adjustment Act. I was much interested in that, having worked on
many legal and administrative phases of the act, and I desired to work
on that case.
The then Solicitor General hired me. I remained until that case was
through.
Mr. Rankin. Who w^as the Solicitor General at that time ?
Mr. Hiss. Now Mr. Justice Stanley Reed. While I was still in the
Solicitor General's office, one of the cases I was working on involved
the constitutionality of the Trade Agreement Act. Mr. Francis B.
Sayre, then Assistant Secretary of State in charge of the Trade Agree-
ments Act, asked me to come to his office as his assistant to supervise the
preparation within the Department of State of the constitutional argu-
ments on the Trade Agreements Act. I did so and I remained in the
Department of State in various capacities until Janu;uy 15, 1947.
I entered the Department of State, I think it was, in September,
1936. I resigned in January, 1947, to accept the appointment to my
present position in private life to which I had been elected the preced-
ing December.
Mr. Rankin. What is that?
Mr. Hiss. I am president of the Carnegie Endowment for Inter-
national Peace.
Mr. Hebert. May I ask the witness a question in connection with
his present association ?
Mr. Mundt. Proceed.
Mr. Hebert. Do you know^ Mr. John Foster Dulles ?
Mr. Hiss. I do. He is the chairman of my board of trustees.
Mr. Hebert. Did he assist you in any way in getting your present
position?
Mr. Hiss. He urged me to take my present position.
Mr. Hebert. Then you are in your present position through the
urging of Mr. John Foster Dulles ?
Mr. Hiss. And other members of the board of trustees.
Mr. Hebert. But in particular, Mr. Dulles?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Dulles and others.
Mr. Hebert. But in particular Mr. Dulles ?
Mr. Hiss. I am afraid I cannot answer it exactly in those terms.
646 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Hebert. AVas he the leading urgency?
Mr. Hiss. He was the chairman of the looarcl of trustees. I don't
think he was more nrgent for my services than some of the other
trustees.
Mr.HEBERT. But he first approached you?
Mr. Hiss. He first approached me.
Mr. MuNDT. In that connection, Mr. Hiss, I would like to ask a
question. Did you know at the time you were appointed to this posi-
tion that you hold with the Carnegie Foundation, did you know at the
time you were being considered for that position about the fact that
Chambers was supposed to have told Secretary Berle that you were a
member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Hiss. I did not.
Mr. MuxDT. You had not heard that ?
Mr. Hiss. I did not.
]Mr. McDowell. Mr. Chairman, in that connection so much has been
said in the last 4 da^^s that I have forgotten entirely what charge was
made by Mr. Chambers. Would the chief investigator enlighten me?
Mr. MuNDT. I was going to interrogate the witness about that and I
will do that at this time for the benefit of Mr. McDowell.
Have you seen a transcript?
Mr. Hiss. I carefully read the entire transcript of Mr. Chambers'
testimon}^ before I came to this committee.
Mr. MiTNDT. Then I don't have to go into that in so much detail.
Mr. McDowell. I want to find out what was said.
Mr. MuNDT. I am getting to it. I want to say for one member of
the committee that it is extremely puzzling that a man who is senior
editor of Time Magazine, by the name of Whittaker Chambers, whom
I had never seen until a day or two ago, and whom you say you have
never seen
ISIr. Hiss. A:; far as I know, I have never seen him.
Mr. MuxDT. Should come before this committee and discuss the
Communist apparatus working in Washington, which he says is trans-
mitting secrets to the Russian Government, and he lists a group of
seven people — Nathan Witt, Lee Pressman, Victor Perlo, Charles
Kramer, John Abt, Harold Ware, Alger Hiss, and Donald Hiss
Mr. Hiss. That is eight.
Mr. MuNDT. There seems to be no question about the subversive
connections of the six other than the Hiss brothers, and I wonder
what possible motive a man who edits Time magazine would have for
mentioning Donald Hiss and Alger Hiss in connection with those
other six.
Mr. Hiss. So do I, Mr. Chairman. I have no possible understand-
ing of what could have motivated him. There are many possible
motives, I assume, but I am unable to understand it.
Mr. MuNDT. You can appreciate the position of this committee
when the name bobs up in connection with those associations.
Mr. Hiss. I hope the committee can appreciate my position, too.
Mr. MuNDT. We surely can and that is why we responded with
alacrity to your request to be heard.
Mr. Hiss. I appreciate that.
Mr. MuNDT. All we are trying to do is find the facts.
Mr. Hiss. I wish I could have seen Mr. Chambers before he testified.
Mr. Rankin. After all the smear attacks against this committee
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 647
and individual members of this committee in Time magazine, I am
]iot surprised at anything that comes out of anybody connected with it.
[Laughter.]
iVIr. INIuNDT. I believe that answers the situation as far as Mr. Mc-
Dowell is concerned.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman,
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Striplixg. I would like to ask the witness : Mr. Hiss, when did
YOU first hear of these allegations on the part of Mr. Chambers?
Mr. Hiss. May I answer that this way, Mr. Stripling? By saying
that the night before he testified a reporter for a New York paper
called me and said he had received a tip that Chambers was to testify
before this committee the next morning and that he would mention
me and would call me a Communist.
Mr, Stripling. You say you have never seen Mr. Chambers?
Mr. Hiss. The name means absolutely nothing to me, IMr. Stripling.
]Mr. Stripling. I have here, Mr. Chairman, a picture which was
made last Monday by the Associated Press. I understand from
people who knew Mr. Chambers during 1934 and '35 that he is much
heavier today than he was at that time, but I show you this picture,
]Mr. Hiss, and ask you if jou have ever known an individual who
resembles this picture.
Mr, Hiss. I would much rather see the indiA'idual. I have looked
at all the pictures I was able to get hold of in, I think it was, yester-
day's paper which had the pictures. If this is a picture of Mr.
Chambers, he is not particularly unusual looking. He looks like a lot
of people. I might even mistake him for the chairman of this com-
mittee. [Laughter.]
Mr. Mundt. I hope you are wrong in that.
Mr. Hiss. I didn't mean to be facetious but very seriously, I would
not want to take oath that I have never seen that man. I would like
to see him and then I think I would be better able to tell whether
I had ever seen him. Is he here today?
Mr. Mundt. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Hiss. I hoped he would be.
Mr. Mundt. You realize that this man whose picture you have just
looked at, under sworn testimony before this committee, where all
the laws of perjury apply, testified that he called at your home, con-
ferred at great length, saw your wife pick up the telephone and call
somebody whom he said must have been a Communist, plead with
you to divert yourself fi;om Communist activities, and left you with
tears in your eyes, saying, "I simply can't make the sacrifice."
Mr. Hiss. I do know that he said that. I also know that I am
testifying under those same laws to the direct contrary.
JSIr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, could I pursue one point ?
IMr. Mundt. Go ahead.
Mr. Stripling. You say you first heard of Mr. Chambers' accusations
against you, concerning you, the night before he testified?
Mr. Hiss. I would like to amplify that by saying I also had heard
in the course of last winter indirectly that a man named Chambers
was calling me a Communist. I heard that while I was in New York
last year, but I did not know
Mr. Stripling. Did the FBI investigate you?
Mr. Hiss. Two agents of the FBI, as I stated in my initial state-
ment, came to see me in my office after I had left the Government.
648 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
I think it was in May 1947. They asked me about various indi-
viduals. They also asked me if I was a Conununist. They asked
me a number of questions not unlike the points Mr. Chambers testified
to in the course of their investigation. They asked me if I knew the
names of a number of people.
One of those names was Chambers. I remember very distinctly
because I had never heard the name Whittaker Chambers. They asked
me first if I knew anyone named Chambers, and I did.
• Mr. Stripling. Were you investigated under the loyalty program ?
Mr. Hiss. I am afraid I don't know.
Mr, Stripling. You went to the FBI and made a statement ?
Mr. Hiss. In 1946, shortly after I came back from London where
I had been at the first meeting of the General Assembly of the United
Nations, Mr. Justice Byrnes, then Secretary of State and my chief,
called me into his office. He said that several Members of Congress
were preparing to make statements on the floor of Congress that I
was a Communist. He asked me if I were, and I said I was not.
He said, "This is a very serious matter. I think all the stories center
from the FBI. I think they are the people who have obtained what-
ever information has been obtained. I think you would be well
advised to go directly to the FBI and offer yourself for a very full
inquiry and investigation."
He also said he thought it would be sensible for me to go to the top
man, and I agreed.
I immediately went to my own office, put in a call for Mr. J. Edgar
Hoover, who was not in town. I was courteously received by his
second in command. I think it was Mr. Tamm in those days. I
saw Mr. Tamm fairly shortly after that at his convenience. He
arranged an appointment. I am not absolutely sure he was the one
I saw. He was the one I called and talked to.
I told him my conversation with the Secretary of State and said
I offered myself for any inquiry. They said did I have any state- "
ment to make? I said I was glad to make any statement upon any
subject they suggested, and they had no specific one initially. So I
simply recited every organization I had been connected with to see if
that could possibly be of any significance to them. They asked me if
I knew certain individuals. Among the names I remember was that
of Lee Pressman. I told them how I had known him and the extent
to which I had known him as I have before this committee. They did
not mention the name Chambers, I am quite sure.
Mr. Stripling. Did they mention Whittaker Chambers?
Mr. Hiss. I am quite sure the first time I ever heard that name was
in May 1947 when two other agents of the FBI came to my office— I
was not then in Government — at 700 Jackson Place and interro-
gated me.
Mr. Stripling. You were not aware that Mr. Chambers had given
this affidavit to the Federal authorities ?
Mr. Hiss. I was not.
Mr. Stripling. In which your name and that of your wife was
connected ?
Mr. Hiss. I certainly was not.
Mr. Rankin. When was it you were called into Justice Byrnes'
office ?
Mr, Hiss. I think it was about March or April 1946, Mr. Rankin.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 649
jNIr. ]VIcDt)AVj:LL. Mr. Hiss, didn't you call on me early this year?
Mr. Hiss. I did, Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDowell. I recall now.
Mr. Hiss. Under very different connections.
Mr. jMcDowell. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. JSIr. Berle never told you anything of his conversa-
tions ?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Berle never spoke to me about this subject.
Mr. Hebert. Never discussed the possibility that you were a Com-
munist or the charges that you were a Communist ?
Mr. Hiss. No ; he did not.
Mr. ]\IuxDT. Can you think of anything which might throw any
light on the reason why these charges have been made, either by Cham-
bers or by some Members of Congress? Anything in your association
other than the fact that you were thrown in connection with Pressman
as a part of your official duties ?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Chairman, as to the Members of Congress, I have the
same impression the Secretary of State had — that their information all
came from the same source. As to the FBI information, it seems in
the light of Chambers' testimony that they, too, had only that source
of information. I have no basis, as I said before, for imagining why
he should have used my name.
JNIr. jMundt. Have you ever belonged to any of the organizations the
Attorney General's office has listed ?
Mr. Hiss. I have not, Mr. Chairman, and I so stated in my opening
remarks.
Mv. Mundt. Has your wife ever belonged ?
Mr. Hiss. She has not, to the best of my knowledge — and I think I
would know.
Mr. Mundt. She has never been a Communist ?
Mr. Hiss. She has not. Again I must say under oath, to the best
of my knowledge. I think my knowledge is better than Mr. Chambers
on that.
Mr. MuNDT. Especially about your wife.
]Mr. Hiss. That is what I am saying.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Hiss, do you know Nathan Gregory Silver-
master ?
Mr. Hiss. No ; I do not. As far as I know, I have never seen him.
Mr. RaxkijV. Before you get to that, may I ask you if you are a
member of a church ?
Mr. Hiss. I am. I have been an Episcopalian all my life.
Mr. Rankix. Is your wife a member of a church ?
Mr. Hiss. JSIy wife is a member of the Society of Friends.
Mr. Rankix. That is what we call the Quaker Church, is it not ?
Mr. Hiss. That is correct. It isn't a church exactly ; it is a society,
a religious society.
Mr. Raxkix. a religious society ?
Mr. Hiss. It is, indeed.
Mr. Striplixg. Mr. Hiss, where were you residing in 1935?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Stripling, I am afraid I would have to consult copies
of old leases and things.
Mr. Striplixg. Did you ever live in Georgetown ?
Mr. Hiss. I have lived in Georgetown most of the time I have been
in Washington.
650 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Did you live on P Street ?
Mr. Hiss. I owned a house on P Street the last few years I was in-
Washinglon. That was the only time I ever owned property in Wash-
ington. I was a renter before that.
Mr. Stripling. I would like to refer to the testimony Mr. Chambers
gave on Monday and read it to the witness :
Mr. Stripling. When you left the Communist Party in 1937, did you approach
any of these seven to break with you?
Mr. Chambers. No. The only one of those people who I approached was Alger
Hiss. I went to Hiss' home in the evening at what I considered considerable
risk to myself and found Mr. Hiss at home. Mrs. Hiss was also a member of the
Communist Party.
Mr. MuNDT. Mrs. Alger Hiss?
Mr. Chambers. Mrs. Alger Hiss. Mrs. Donald Hiss, I believe, is not. Mrs.
Hiss attempted \thile I was there to make a call, which I can only presume was
to other Communists, but I quickly went to the telephone and she hung up and
Mr. Hiss came in shortly afterwai'd and we talked and I tried to break him away
from the party. As a matter of fact, he cried when we separated. When I left
him, he absolutely refused to break.
I\Ir. McDowell. He cried?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; he did. I was very fond of Mr. Hiss.
Mr. MuNDT. He must have given you some reason why he did not want to
sever tlie relationship.
Mr. Chambers. His reason was simply the party line.
Now, Mr. Chairman, in the affidavit which Mr. Chambers made to
the Federal authorities a few years ago, he stated that he went to Mr.
Hiss' home in Georgetown. You neA^er recall any individual, whether
under the name of Chambers or any other name- coming to your home
in Georgetown and such a conversation as this?
Mr. Hiss. I certainly do not.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, there is very sharp contradiction
here in the testimony. I certainly suggest Mr. Chambers be brought
back before the committee and clear this up.
Mr. MuNDT. It Avould seem that the testimony is diametricallv op-
posed and it comes from two witnesses whom normally one would as-
sume to be perfectly reliable. They have high positions in American
business or organizational work. They both appear to be honest.
They both testify under oath. Certainly the committee and the coun-
try must be badly confused about why these stories fail to jibe so
completely.
I think we have neglected to ask you, Mr. Hiss, one other possible
clue to this situation. It could be that Mr. Chambers has mistaken
you for your brother. Would you know if he would testify under
oath whether your brother has ever belonged to any subversive or-
ganizations or is a Communist?
Mr. Hiss. I am not a qualified witness to testify absolutely. I
would like to say that absolutely in my opinion he is not and never
has been.
Mr. IVIuNDT. So far as you know.
Mr. McDowell. Is he your younger brother.
Mr. Hiss. He is a younger brother.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know he has never belonged to any of the or-
ganizations listed?
Mr. Hiss. So far as I know he has never belonged to any organiza-
tion that could be called a Communist front organization.
Mr. MuNDT. Unless there ai'e other questions from the committee
members
fe
I
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 651
Mr. Rankin. Have you ever belonged to any Comnnmist front or-
ganizations^
Mr. Hiss. No, Mr. Rankin. As I testified at the beginning of my
testimony, I have not.
Mr. Rankin. You are not a member of tlie Soutliern Conference
for Human Welfare, then ?
Mr. Hiss. No ; I am not.
Mr. MuNDT. ]\Ir. Nixon ?
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chairman, I think in justice to both of these wit-
nesses and in order to avoid what might be a useless appearance on
the part of Mr. Chambers, when arrangements are made for his being
here, that the witnesses be allowed to confront each other so that any
possibility of a mistake in identity may be cleared up. It may be
that Mr. Chambers' appearance has changed through the years but
it is quite apparent that Mr. Hiss has not put on much weight. He
must have been very thin before if he did.
I think if there is mistaken identity on Mr. Chambers' part he will
be able to recall it when he confronts Mr. Hiss.
Mr. Stripling. JNIr. Chairman, may I ask a few questions here?
I have a list of people here I would like to ask the witness if he is
acquainted with.
Mr. MuNDT. Surely.
Mr. Stripling. First, I would like to go back to your statement,
Mr. Hiss, in which you referred to jouv friendship with Henry
Collins.
Mr. Hiss. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. It was at Henry Collins' apartment in St. Matthews
Court in Washington, D. C, that Mr. Whittaker Chambers testified
that the members of this Conmiunist apparatus within the Government
met. Did you ever go to Mr. Collins' apartment in St. Matthews'
Court?
Mr. Hiss. I am not sure I ever went to any apartment he had in
St. Matthews Court. I have in the course of the years been to a number
of apartments and dwelling houses where Mr. -Collins resided and
lie has been to my house.
Mr. Stripling. At any time that you were at Mr. Collins* home, was
Mr. Lee Pressman present ?
Mr. Hiss. I couldn't be sure that he wasn't. He may well have
been.
Mr. Stripling. Was Mr. Nathan Witt present ?
Mr. Hiss. Not to my recollection.
Mr. Stru'Ling. Was Mr. Harold Ware present?
Mr. Hiss. Not to my recollection.
Mr. Stripling. I believe you testified you didn't know Victor Perlo.
Mr. Hiss. I don't believe I know Victor Perlo.
Mr. Stripling. Was John Abt present ?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my recollection.
Mr. Stripling. Was Charles Kramer present?
Mr. Hiss. Again not to the best of my recollection. Certainly not
in recent years.
Mr. Stripling. We are not referring to recent years. We are re-
ferring back to the period 1934 through 1037.
Mr. Hiss. To the best of my recollection I do not recall the men
I have already testified about in answer to your questions being present.
652 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss, did you testify earlier that you did or did
not know Mr. Ware?
Mr. Hiss. I hadn't been asked the question. I did know Mr. Ware
while I was in the Department of Agriculture. My recollection is
that he was an agricultural specialist and I think he had been a member
of an unofficial mission according to my recollection that went to
Russia in connection with studying large-scale wheat farming. My
recollection is he came into my offices in the Department of Agriculture,
as many callers did, on several occasions. I do remember hearing of
a wheat mission which was studying large-scale wheat farming with
combines and tractors and things of that sort, and I think I remember
Mr. Harold Ware in that connection.
Mr. Nixon. Your testimony in effect is that your acquaintance with
Mr. Ware w^as only casual in the course of your employment.
Mr. Hiss. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. And not otherwise.
Mr. Hiss. And not otherwise.
Mr. Stripling. You were very closely associated with Mr. Pressman
at the time you were both with the AAA ; is that right ?
Mr. Hiss. W^e had the same status, that of assistant general counsel.
We were the two assistant general counsels, as I recall it.
Mr. Stktpling. Were certain members of the staff of AAA removed
by Jerome Frank ?
Mr. Hiss. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. You don't recall Mr. Pressman resigning from the
AAA?
Mr. Hiss. ^lay I ask you a question? Perhaps you are thinking
some of them w^ere removed by Secretary Wallace and not by Mr.
Frank. Mr. Frank was one of those removed.
Mr, Stripling. They were removed. Is that correct ?
Mr. Hiss. I 'on't know the details. I believe they were asked to
resign. I don't think they had to be removed. I think the mere
request for their resignation was all that was necessary.
Mr. Rankin. Who requested their resignation ?
]Mr. Hiss. My understanding is it was the Secretary of Agriculture,
who was then Mr. Henry A. Wallace.
Mr. Rankin. What year was that?
Mr. Hiss. 1934, 1 would guess, and 1935, I am not absolutely sure.
Maybe Mr. Stripling knows the dates.
Mr. Stripling. Why did Secretary Wallace ask them to resign?
Mr. Hiss. I can only speak from hearsay and my recollection of
various events that occurred there with which I am personally familiar.
My own experience with that situation began when Mr. Chester Davis,
who was then the Administrator — he had succeeded Mr. George Peek —
of the AAA called me into his office. He was in a high state of per-
turbation and he said :
"Alger, did you approve this opinion about distribution of benefit
payments under the cotton contracts?"
i said, "Yes, Chester; I did."
He said, "How could you? It is a dishonest opinion."
And I said, "Chester, if you thiuk any legal opinion I have approved
is dishonest, I am no longer your lawyer, I resign ; I cannot serve any
client wlio does not have confidence in me."
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 653
He immediately said, "Oh, I don't mean that," and that he had con-
fidence in me. I refused at that time to withdraw my resignation.
In the course of that day an announcement was made that Secretary
Wallace had asked for the resignation. My resignation was never
asked for. He asked for the resignation of certain members of the
staff of the Agricultural Adjustment Administration. I think Mr.
Frank was one of them. I believe Mr. Gardner Jaclison was one of
them. I don't recall the details, but the three or fi,ur men whom I
knew— one of them was my chief, Mr. Frank, whom I knew very well —
and it was my understanding that it was not really over a question of
law because subsequently Mr. Chester Davis apologized for calling it a
dishonest opinion and said he did not question my integrity.
I think it was the culmination to a long period of disagreement on
substantive political issues between Mr. Frank and some of his staff
and Mr. Chester Davis, the Administrator.
Mr. Stripling. ]Mr. Hiss, I have a list of names here and I am
going to ask you if you are acquainted with them. The first is John
J. Abt.
Mr. Hiss. I am acquainted with Mr. Abt as I testified at the be-
ginning of my statement. I met INIr. Abt first in the Legal Division
of the Agricultural Adjustment Administration. We were both em-
ployed in that office.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know an individual by the name of Solomon
Adler?
Mr. Hiss. I do not.
Mr. Stripling. Norman Bursler, B-u-r-s-1-e-r?
Mr. Hiss. Would you spell that again ?
Mr. Stripling. Norman Bursler, B-u-r-s-1-e-r.
Mr. Hiss. No ; I don't think I have ever heard of him.
Mr. Stripling. Frank V. Coe, C-o-e ?
Mr. Hiss. I have known a Mr. Coe in Government service. Could
you identify him ? I don't remember the first name.
Mr. Stripling. In the Treasury Department, Division of Monetary
Research, on June 17. 1946, a position with the Monetary Fund.
Mr. Hiss. I know that Mr. Coe.
Mr. Stripling. How well do you know Mr. Coe ?
Mr. Hiss. I have only known him officially while I was in the De-
partment of State. I have also known him since he has been with
the International Fund ; or is it the bank?
Mr. Stripling. International Fund.
Mr. Hiss. Since he has been with the International Monetary I und
because I have been interested in all phases of United Nations activities,
I do know Mr. Coe.
Mr. Stripling. Do you Icnow Mr. Lauchlin Currie ?
Mr. Hiss. I know Lauchlin Currie very well and have a high regard
for him.
Mr. MuNDT. May I ask, since you are qualifying your relationships,
do you have a high regard for Lee Pressman?
Mr. Hiss. I knew Pressman first at law school and I have seen very
little of him recently. I liked him and admired him as a law student,
and knew him and admired him as a fellow lawyer in the Agricultural
Adjustment Administration.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Edward J. Fitzgerald ?
654 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Hiss. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Harold Glasser, G-1-a-s-s-e-r?
Mr. Hiss. I know Mr, Glasser. He was an official of the Treasury
when I knew him and I was in the State Department and knew him
officially, and I think only officially.
Mr. Stripling. Sonia S. Gold, G-o-l-d?
Mr. Hiss. I think not.
Mr. Stripling. Mrs. William Gold or Mrs. Bela Gold?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my recollection.
Mr. Stripling. She was secretary to Harry Dexter White.
Mr. Hiss. I knew Mr. White and may have met Mrs. Gold in going
into his office if she was his secretary. I don't recall.
Mr. Stripling. Do yon know William J. Gold?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Jacob Golos ?
Mr. Hiss. No ; definitely not.
Mr. Stripling. Joseph B. Gregg — G-r-e-g-g?
Mr. Hiss. There was a Joe Gray in the State Department.
Mr. Stripling. Resigned from the Department of State April 1,.
1946.
Mr. Hiss. Was this the Joe Gray
Mr. Stripling. That is spelled G-r-e-g-g.
Mr. Hiss. I thought you meant G-r-a-y, excuse me. Excuse me for
dragging the name in.
Mr. Stripling. Michael Greenberg ?
Mr. Hiss. I did know a Michael Greenberg. He, according to the
best of my recollection, was an assistant to Mr, Carrie at the time I
knew him.
Mr. Stripling. Was he in the Department of State at any time?
Mr. Hiss. Not so far as I know.
Mr. Stripling. According to the Civil Service records, Michael
Greenberg was separated for reduction in force from the Department
of State June 15, 1916. He resided at '2700 Eighth Street South,
Arlington, Va. Do you know that Michael Greenberg?
Mr, Hiss, I never went to his house, so the address doesn't help me,
jSIr, Stripling, It is done for the purpose of identification.
Mv. Hiss. I did know a Michael Greenberg as a State Department
official. I remember quite well a yoinig assistant, I think, to Mr, Currie,
who was a specialist on the Far East,
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Maurice Halperin?
Mr. Hiss, I do not, to the best of my knoAvledge.
Mr, Stripling, Do you know an individual by the name of Julius
J, Joseph ?
Mr, Hiss, Not to the best of my knowledge,
Mr, Stripling, Charles Kramer ?
Mr. Hiss. I do, and I have already referred to Kramer as an official
of the Department of Agriculture in a different office. He was not a
lawyer, I knew him officially,
Mr, Stripling, When did you last see Charles Kramer?
Mr, Hiss, I couldn't be sure, I have probably seen him on the
street. He is a rather distinctive looking person. Do you know him?
Mr. Stripling. I know him.
Mr. Hiss. He has reddish hair, very distinctive. I think I recall
having seen him, though not to talk to, in Washington sometime
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 655
ill the last couple of years. I don't think I have seen him to talk
to since I left the Department of Agriculture.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know an individual named Irving Kaplan?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of 1113^ knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Duncan C. Lee?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Harry Magdoff — M-a-g-d-o-f-f ?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Robert T. Miller ?
]Mr. Hiss. Would you identify him ? There was a Mr. Miller at the
Department of State whom I did know officially.
Mr. Stripling. Resigned from the Department of State on Decem-
ber 13, 1946.
Mr. Hiss. Was he an information officer? An information spe-
cialist ?
Mr. Stripling. I don't have that information.
Mr. Hiss. According to my recollection, there was a Mr. Miller in
the Department of State who was what was known as an information
officer, and I knew him officially in the Department of State, if that is
the same individual.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Willard Z. Park?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
i\Ir. Stripling. Victor Perlo?
Mr. Hiss. I have already said I don't believe I know Mr.. Perlo.
I noticed his name in Mr. Chambers' testimony. May I say, Mr.
Stripling, that I have been in Washington about 14 or 15 years.
I have met casually a great many people. I am testifying to the best
of my recollection.
Mr. Stripling. The committee wants to know whether or not you
know these people. We are not interested in whether or not you have
just met them.
Mildred Price?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Bernard's. Redmont — R-e-d-m-o-n-t?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. William W. Remington?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Allan — A-1-l-a-n — R. Rosenberg — R-o-s-e-n-
b-e-r-g?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Abraham B. Silverman — S-i-1-v-e-r-m-a-n?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Nathan Gregory Silvermaster?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know why Mr. Silvermaster would refuse
to answer the question when he was asked whether he knew Alger
Hiss, he replied, "I refuse to answer this question on the grounds
that any answer I may give to this question may be self-incrimi-
nating" ?
Mr. Hiss. I certainly do not.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know William H. Taylor, T-a-y-1-o-r?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge. Can you identify him ?
Taylor is a very familiar name.
656 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Strtplincj. Mr. Taylor was with the Treasury Department,
resigned December 14, 1946, to accept a position with the International
Monetary Fund.
Mr. Hiss. I think I know that Mr. Taylor. Have you seen him ?
Do you know what he looks like?
Mr. Stripling. No; I don't.
Mr. Hiss. I think I did know him officially.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Helen B. Tenney, T-e-n-n-e-y ?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Do you knovc William L. Ullman, U-1-l-m-a-n?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Donald N. Wheeler?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. /Stripling. Harry D. White ?
Mr. Hiss. I do know'Mr. Harry D. White.
Mr. Rankin. But you don't know Mr. Remington?
Mr. Hiss. I do not.
Mr. Stripling. That is all the c|uestions I have at this time, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. MuNDT. ]NIr. Hiss, you have gone into some detail concerning
your work and responsibilities in the Department of Agriculture. I
would like to ask you a few questions concerning your work and re-
sponsibilities while working for the Department of State.
Mr. Hiss. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you participate in the Yalta Conference?
Mr. Hiss. I did, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you draft or participate in the drafting of parts
of the Yalta agreement?
Mr. Hiss. I think it is accurate and not an immodest statement to
say that I did to some extent, yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you participate in those parts which gave Russia
three votes in the Assembly?
Mr. Hiss. I was present at the Conference and am familiar with
some of the facts involved in that particular arrangement.
Mr. MuNDT. You would say you did participate in the formation
of that ])art of the agi'eement ?
Mr. Hiss. I had nothing to do Avith the decision that these votes
be granted. I opposed them.
Mr. MuNDT. You opposed them?
Mr. Hiss. I did.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you participate — I am glad to hear that
Mr. Rankin. Let's get that answ^er straight. You opposed the
Yalta agreement?
Mr. Hiss. I opposed the particular point that the chairman referred
to by which the United States agreed to sui)pftrt Soviet Russia's
application for votes in the Assembly and membership in the United
Nations Organization to Byelo Russia and the Ukraine. I did not
oppose the Yalta agreement as a whole— quite the contrary. I still
think the political agreement was a very valuable agreement for the
United States.
Mr. MuNDT. I congratulate you on your opposition to that particu-
lar section. Did you participate in the ]iortion of the Yalta agree-
ment which gave Russia control of the chief Manchurian railway?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 657
Mr. Hi!S8. That was not part of the political agreement. I knew
nothing of that until many months later. That was in the military
talks in which I did not participate.
Mr. MuNDT. As an employee in the Department of State, did you
have anything to do with the departmental policy which was pro-
claimed on December 15, 1945, before General Marshall went out to
Chma?
Mr. Hiss. No; I did not. I had been connected with far eastern
affairs, before, but about February 1944, I was assigned to United
Nations work and specialized entirely in that field thereafter.
Mr. MuNDT. Referring especially to that portion of the Secretary's
proclamation which said that we must have peace and unity with the
Communists in China.
Mr. Hiss. I was not consulted on that. It was not in my area of
activity at all.
Mr. Rankin. Wlio was Secretary of State at that time ?
Mr. Hiss. In 1945, 1 think Mr. Byrnes.
Mr. MuNDT. The Yalta agreement, which wrote out, according to
my information, quite well the text of the United Nations charter deal-
ing w^ith the veto provisions — did you participate in the drawing up
of those veto provisions?
Mr. Hiss. My best recollection without consulting the actual records
is that the text of what is now article 27 of the Charter was drafted
in the Department of State in the early winter of 1944 before the Yalta
ConlereiKe, as^ part of tlie negotiations preceding that Confertnice, was
dispatched by the President of the United States to the Prime Minister
of Great Britain and to Marshal Stalin for their agreement and repre-
sented the proposal made by the United States at the Yalta Conference
and was accepted by the other two after some discussion. I did par-
ticipate in the Department of State in the drafting of the messages I
have referred to that President Roosevelt sent in, I think, December
1944 prior to the Yalta Conference.
Mr. MuNDT. Those were the messages which described the veto
provisions ?
Mr. Hiss. My recollection is they set out an actual suggested draft
and that the variations between that draft and the present language
of the Charter is immaterial.
Mr. MuNT. What I was trying to get to is whether you participated
in the creation of the draft.
Mv. Hiss. I did participate in the creation of the draft that was sent
by President Roosevelt to Churchill and Stalin, which was the draft
actually adopted at Yalta and actually adopted at San Francisco.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you lend your influence in the direction of having
the veto provision included in that draft ?
Mr. Hiss. I did. That was practically the unanimous position of
the American Government, I might add.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you have a question, Mr. McDowell?
Mr. McDow^ELL. Mr. Hiss, do you feel you have had a free and fair
and proper hearing this morning?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. McDowell, I think I have been treated with great con-
sideration by this committee. I am not happy that I didn't have a
chance to meet with the committee privately before there was such a
80408 — i8 — —11
658 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
great public press display of what I consider completely unfounded
charges against me. Denials do not always catch up with charges.
Mr. McI)o\\t:ll. I am very familiar with that, but I think they will
in your case, Mr. Hiss, because you have the same radio facilities, the
same news-reel facilities, and the same press facilities as the man who
made the charges. You will appreciate that this committee has no
way of reading into a witness' mind what he is going to say. Some-
times we are greatly surprised, too, in reading over a list of people
whom we have reason to suspect are Communists or espionage agents,
there is brought in a name which many Americans, including members
of this committee, hold in high repute.
Mr. Hiss. I would rather not comment on that particular point. I
don't think I am in the best frame of mind to comment on that right
now.
Mr. MuNDT. I think that is probably correct. Mr. Nixon, do you
have further questions ?
Mr. Nixon. From your experience in the State Department, is it
your opinion that every effort should be made by the investigative
authorities of the Government and by the connnittees of Congress to
look into the alleged subversive activities of Communists in the United
States? -
Mr. Hiss. Was j^our question "every effort"? Every effort which
is compatible with the protection of the reputations of innocent per-
sons, I certainly do.
Mr. NixON. In other words, you feel then that there is definite
danger to the security of the United States from Communist under-
ground activities which requires investigation?
Mr. Hiss. I think it would be very unwise for the Government to
employ anyone in whose loyalty it did not have complete confidence,
and it should establish its judgment as carefully and reliably as
possible.
Mr. NixoN". For that reason since it is essential that the Government
have complete confidence in its employees that investigation — and I
am referring now to Communist activities because that is what both
Senate and House committees are interested in — the investigation of
Communist activities, having in mind the rights of individuals con-
cerned, as you have indicated, should proceed so that we can protect
the national security from the activities of American Communists who
will be serving the interests of a foreign government.
Mr. Hiss. I do. I think some distinction should be made with re-
spect to so-called sensitive positions and other types of positions, but I
am not an expert on that type of personnel problem. It is just my
offhand impression.
Mr. MuNDT. Are there any positions in Government where you feel
that Communists should be employed ?
Mr. Hiss. As I say, I am not an expert on that question. Whether
someone who is sweeping the halls or a charwoman — I really don't
know.
Mr. MuNDT. If you were in charge
Mr. Hiss. I wouldn't make the same kind of investigation, I would
say that.
Mr. MuNDT. If you were in charge of an executive agency would you
employ a Communist as a charwoman if you knew it ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 659
Mr. Hiss. That is what President Roosevelt used to call an "iffy"
question.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you want to give an "iffy" answer?
Mr. Hiss. I don't think I shall ever have that decision to face. I
think, trying to answer your question very responsibly, I would not.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Rankin.
Mr. Rankin. I have two questions. I believe you said you were
recommended for your present position by Mr. John Foster Dulles.
That is correct, isn't it ?
Mr. Hiss. That is correct.
Mr. Rankin. Now, Mr. Muiidt questioned you about your attitude
on the veto and the United Nations Charter.
Mr. Hiss. Yes, sir.
Mr. Rankin. And you say you favored it ?
Mr. Hiss. I did.
Mr. Rankin. Now, whose interest did you have at heart and in mind
at the time, the interest of the United States or the interest of a foreign
power ?
Mr. Hiss. The interest of the United States and of the United Na-
tions Organization. I think without the veto there would have been
no United Nations Organization. I think it was highly desirable to
the interest of the United States that there be such an organization in
which the United States participated.
Mr. Rankin. You think that veto is in the interest of the United
States?
Mr. Hiss. I think, Mr, Rankin, that various changes and modifica-
tions could helpfully and desirably be made in the veto provision. I
think on the question of enforcement in particular, on the calling out
of contingents of armed forces supplied by member states, that in the
present state of the world that each of the major powers, including
particularly the United States, must reserve its own judgment as to
whether it thinks its own troops should move in a given case.
Mr. Rankin. That is all.
Mr. MuNDT. The Chair has one additional question. I think counsel
neglected to ask you, Mr. Hiss.
During the time you were employed with the State Department,
before or since, did you ever see or meet Carl Alclo Marzani ? ,
Mr. Hiss. I did not.
Mr. MuNDT. The Chair wishes to express the appreciation of the
committee for your very cooperative attitude, for your forthright
statements, and for the fact that you were first among those whose'
names were mentioned by various witnesses to communicate with us
asking for an opportunity to deny the charges.
Mr. Rankin. And another thing. I want to congratulate the wit-
ness that he didn'tt refuse to answer the questions on the ground that
it might incriminate him, and he didn't bring a lawyer here to tell him
what to say.
Mr. MuNDT. The committee will meet in executive session at 3
o'clock this afternoon.
("Whereupon, at 12 : 35 p. m., the committee adjourned.)
HEARINGS RECtARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
SATURDAY, AUGUST 7, 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Special Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
New York, N. Y.
executive session ^
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10 : 30 o'clock in room
101, Federal Courthouse, 2 Foley Square, New York, N. Y., Hon.
Richard M. Nixon presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives Richard M. Nixon,
John McDowell, and F. Edward Hebert.
Staff members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator;
Louis J. Russell, Donald P. Appell, and C. E. McKillips, investiga-
tore, and Benjamin Mandel, director of research for the committee.
Mr. Nixon. Let the record show that this is an executive session
of a subcommittee appointed by the acting chairman of the Un-
American Activities Committee, Karl Mundt, on August 5.
Mr. Stripling, will you call the first witness?
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I think the record should show those
present.
Mr. Nixon. Let the record show Mr. McDowell, Mr. Hebert, and
Mr. Nixon are present.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Chambers. I do.
Mr. Nixon. Be seated.
TESTIMONY OP WHITTAKER CHAMBERS
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chambers, you are aware of the fact that Mr.
Alger Hiss appeared before this committee, before the Un-American
Activities Committee, in public session and swore that the testimony
which had been given by you under oath before this committee was
false. The committee is now interested in questioning you further
concerning your alleged acquaintanceship with Mr. Alger Hiss so
that we can determine what course of action should be followed in
this matter in the future.
Mr. Hiss in his testimony was asked on several occasions whether
or not he had ever known or knew a man by the name of Whittaker
Chambers. In each instance he categorically said "No."
At what period did you know Mr. Hiss ? What time ?
2 Testimony taken in executive session and released during public hearing, August 25,
661
662 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Chambers. I knew Mr. Hiss, roughly, between the years 1935
to 1937.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know him as Mr. Alger Hiss ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Did you happen to see Mr. Hiss' pictures in the news-
papers as a result of these recent hearings ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; I did.
Mr. Nixon. Was that the man you knew as Alger Hiss ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; that is the man.
Mr. Nixon. You are certain of that ?
Mr. Chambers. I am completely certain.
Mr, Nixon. During the time that you knew Mr. Hiss, did he know
you as Whittaker Chambers?
Mr- Chambers. No, he did not.
Mr. Nixon. By what name did he know you?
Mr. Chambers. He knew me by the party name of Carl,
Mr. Nixon, Dicl he ever question the fact that he did not know your
last name?
Mr. Chambers. Not to me.
Mr. Nixon. Why not?
Mr, Chambers. Because in the underground Communist Party the
principle of organization is that functionaries and heads of the
group, in other words, shall not be known by their right names but
by pseudonyms or party names.
Mr. NixoN. Were you a party functionary?
Mr. Chambers. I was a functionary,
Mr. NixoN. This entire group with which you worked in Washing-
ton did not know you by your real name?
Mr. Chambers. No member of that group knew me by my real name.
Mr, NixON. All knew you as Carl?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. Nixon, No member of that group ever inquired of you as to
vour real name?
Mr, Chambers. To have questioned me would have been a breach of
party discipline, Communist Party discipline.
Mr. Nixon. I understood you to say that Mr. Hiss was a member
of the party.
Mr. Chambers. Mr. Hiss was a member of the Communist Party.
Mr, NixoN. How do you know that ?
Mr. Chambers, I was told by Mr, Peters,
Mr. Nixon. You were told that by Mr. Peters ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes,
Mr. Nixon. On what facts did Mr. Peters give you ?
Mr. Chambers. Mr. Peters was the head of the entire underground,
as far as I knoAv.
Mr. Nixon. The entire underground of the Commmiist Party ?
Mr. Chambers. Of the Communist Party in the United States,
Mr. Nixon. Do you have any other evidence, any factual evidence,
to bear out your claim that Mr. Hiss was a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Chambers. Nothing beyond the fact that he submitted himself
for the 2 or 3 years that 1 knew him as a dedicated and disciplined
Communist,
Mr, Nixon, Did you obtain his party dues from him ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 663
Mr. Chambers. Yes, I did.
Mr. Nixon. Over what period of time?
Mr. Chambers. Two or three years, as long as I knew him.
Mr. Nixox. Party dues from him and his wife ?
Mr. Chambers. I assume his wife's dues were there ; I understood
it to be.
Mr. Nixox. You understood it to be?
Mr. Chambers. Mr. Hiss would simply give me an envelope con-
taining party dues which I transferred to Peters. I didn't handle
the money.
Mr. Nixon. How often 'i
Mr. Chambers. Once a month.
Mr. Nixon. What did he say?
Mr. Chambers. That Avas one point it wasn't necessary to say any-
thing. At first he said, "Here are my dues."
Mr. Nixon. And once a month over a period of 2 years, approxi-
mately, he gave you an envelope which contained the dues?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. NixoN. What did you do with that envelope ?
Mr. Chambers. I gave it to Peters.
Mr. Nixon. In New York ?
Mr. Chambers. Or Washington.
Mr. Nixon. This envelope contained dues of Hiss and other mem-
bers of the group ?
Mr. Chambers. Only Hiss.
INIr. Nixon. You collected dues from the other members of the group
individually ?
Mr. Chambers. All dues were collected individually.
Mr. Nixon. I see. So this money could not have been money from
anybody but Hiss ?
Mr. Chambers. Only from Hiss.
Mr. Nixon. Couldn't have been giving you dues for his wife and not
for himself ?
Mr. Chambers. I suppose it is possible, but that was certainly not
the understanding.
Mr. Nixon. The understanding was it was his dues?
Mr. Chambers. The understanding was it was his dues. Not only
that, but he was rather pious about paying his dues promptly.
Mr. Nixon. Is there any other circumstance which would substan-
tiate your allegation that he was a member of the party ? You have
indicated he paid dues, you indicated that Mr. Peters, the head of the
Communist underground, informed you he was a member of the
party before you met him the first time.
Mr. Chambers. I must also interpolate there that all Communists in
the group in which I originally knew him accepted him as a member
of the Communist Party.
Mr. Nixon. Referred to him as a member of the party?
Mr. Chambers. That doesn't come up in conversation, but this was
a Communist group.
Mr. Nixon. Could this have possibly been an intellectual study
group ?
Mr. Chambers. It was in nowise an intellectual study group. Its
primary function was not that of an intellectual study group. I cer-
tainly supplied some of that intellectual study business, which was
664 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
part of my function, but its primary function was to infiltrate the
Government in the interest of the Communist Party.
Mr. Nixon. At that time, incidentally, Mr. Hiss and the other mem-
bers of this group who were Government employees did not have party
cards ?
Mr. Chambers. No members of that group to my knowledge ever
had party cards, nor do I think members of any such group have party
cards.
Mr. Nixoisr. The reason is
Mr. Chambers. The reason is security, concealment.
Mr. Nixon. In other words, people who are in the Communist un-
derground are in fact instructed to deny the fact that they are mem-
bers of the Communist Party?
Mr. Chambers. I was told by Peters that party registration was
kept in Moscow and in some secret file in the United States.
Mr. Nixon. Did Mr. Hiss have any children?
Mr. Chambers. Mr. Hiss had no children of his own.
Mr. Nixon. Were there any children living in his home?
Mr. Chambers. Mrs. Hiss had a son.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know the son's name?
Mr. Chambers. Timothy Hobson.
Mr. Nixon. Approximately how old was he at the time you knew
him ?
Mr. Chambers. It seems to me he was about 10 years old.
Mr. Nixon. What did you call him ?
Mr. Chambers. Timmie.
Mr. Nixon. Did Mr. Hiss call him Timmie also ?
Mr. Chambers. I think so.
Mr. Nixon. Did he have any other nickname?
Mr. Chambers. Not that I recall. He is the son, to the best of my
knowledge, of Thayer Hobson, who I think is a member of the pub-
lishing house of William Morrow here in New York.
Mr. Nixon. What name did Mrs. Hiss use in addressing Mr. Hiss?
Mr. Chambers. Usually "Hilly."
Mr. Nixon. "Hilly"?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Quite often ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. In your presence ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Not "Alger"?
Mr. Chambers. Not "Alger."
Mr. Nixon. What nickname, if any. did Mr. Hiss use in addressing
his wife?
Mr. Chambers. More often "Dilly" and sometimes "Pross." Her
name was Priscilla. They were commonly referred to as "Plilly" and
"Dilly."
Mr. Nixon. They were commonly referred to as "Hilly" and Dilly"?
Mr. Chambers. By other members of the group.
Mr. Nixon. You don't mean to indicate that was simply the nick-
names used by t'ac Communist group?
Mr. Cha]mi5::us. 'I h.s was a family matter.
Mr. Nixon. In (^ther words, other friends and acquaintances of theirs
would possibly have used these names ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 665
Did you ever spend any time in Hiss' home?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Did you stay overnight?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; I stayed overnight for a number of days.
Mr. Nixon. You mean from time to time ?
Mr. Chambers. From time to time.
Mr. Nixon. Did you ever stay longer than 1 day?
]\Ir. Chambers. I have stayed there as long as a week.
Mr. Nixon. A week one time. What would you be doing during
that time ?
Mr. Chambers. Most of the time reading.
Mr. Nixon. What arrangements was made for taking care of your
lodging at that time ? Were you there as a guest ?
Mr. Chambers. I made that a kind of informal headquarters.
Mr. Nixon. I understand that, but what was the financial arrange-
ment ?
Mr. Chambers. There was no financial arrangement.
Mr. Nixon. You were a guest ?
Mr. Chambers. Part of the Communist pattern.
Mr. Nixon, Did the Hisses have a cook ? Do you recall a maid ?
Mr. Chambers. As nearly as I can remember, they had a maid who
came in to clean, and a cook who came in to cook. I can't remembei
they had a maid there all the time or not. It seems to me in one or
two of the houses they did.
In one of the houses they had a rather elderly Negro maid whom
Mr. Hiss used to drive home in the evening.
Mr. Nixon. You don't recall the names of the maids ?
Mr. Chambers. No; I don't.
Mr. NixoN. Did the Hisses have any pets ?
Mr. Chambers. They had, I believe, a cocker spaniel. I have a bad
memory for dogs, but as nearly as I can remember it was a cocker
spaniel.
Mr. Nixon. Do you remember the dog's name ?
Mr. Chambers. No. I remember they used to take it up to some
kennel. I think out Wisconsin Avenue.
Mr. Nixon. They took it to board it there ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes. They made one or two vacation trips to the
Eastern Shore of Maryland.
Mr. Nixon. Thej' made some vacation trips to the Eastern Shore
of Maryland ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes, and at those times the dog was kept at the
kennel.
Mr. Nixon. You state the Hisses had several different houses when
you knew them ? Could you describe any one of those houses to us ?
Mr. Chambers. I think so. It seems to me when I first knew him
he was living on 28th Street in an apartment house. There were two
almost identical apartment houses. It seems to me that is a dead-end
street and this was right at the dead end and certainly it is on the
right-hand side as you go up.
It also seems to me that apartment was on the top floor. Now, what
was it like inside, the furniture ? I can't remember.
Mr. Mandel. What was Mr. Hiss' library devoted to ?
Mr. Chambers. Very nondescript, as I recall.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall what floor the apartment was on ?
666 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Chambers. I think it was on the top floor.
Mr. Nixon. The fourth?
Mr. Chambers. It was a walk-up. I think the fourth.
Mr. Nixon. It could have been the third, of course ?
Mr. Chambers. It might have been.
Mr. Nixon. But you think it was the top, as well as you can recall?
Mr. Chambers. I think it was the top.
Mr. Nixon. Understand, I am not trying to hold you to absolute
accuracy.
Mr. Chambers. I am trying to recall.
Mr. Nixon. Was there any special dish they served ?
Mr. Chambers. No. I think you get here into something else. Hiss
is a man of great simplicity and a great gentleness and sweetness of
character, and they lived with extreme simplicity. I had the impres-
sion that the furniture in that house was kind of pulled together from
here or there, maybe got it from their mother or something like that,
nothing lavish about it whatsoever, quite simple.
Their food was in the same pattern and they cared nothing about
food. It was'not a primary interest in their lives.
Mr. Mandel. Did Mr. Hiss have any hobbies ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; he did. They both had the same hobby —
amateur ornithologists, bird observers. They used to get up early in
the morning and go to Glen Echo, out the canal, to observe birds.
I recall once they saw, to their great excitement, a prothonotary
warbler.
Mr. McDowell. A very rare specimen ?
Mr. Chambers. I never saw one. I am also fond of birds.
Mr. Nixon. Did they have a car ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; they did. When I first knew them they had
a car. Again I am reasonably sure — I am almost certain — it was a
Ford and that it was a roadster. It was black and it was very dilapi-
dated. There is no question about that.
I remember very clearly that it had hand windshield wipers. I
remember that because I drove it one rainy day and had to work those
windshield wipers by hand.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall any other car?
Mr. Chambers. It seems to me in 1936, probably, he got a new
Plymouth.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall its type ? •
Mr. Chambers. It was a sedan, a two-seated car.
Mr. Mandel. What did he do with the old car ?
Mr. Chambers. The Communist Party had in Washington a service
station — that is, the man in charge or owner of this station was a Com-
munist— or it may have been a car lot.
Mr. Nixon. But the owner was a Communist ?
Mr. Chambers. The owner was a Communist. I never knew who
this was or where it was. It was against all the rules of underground
organization for Hiss to do anything with his old car but trade it in,
and I think this investigation has proved how right the Communists
are in such matters, but Hiss insisted that he wanted that car turned
over to the open p.irtv so it could be of use to some poor organizer in
the West or somewhere.
Much against my better judgment and much against Peters' better
judgment, he finally got us to permit him to do this thing. Peters
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 667
knew where this lot was and he either took Hiss there, or he gave Hiss
the address and Hiss went there, and to the best of my recollection
of his description of that happening, he left the car there and simply
went away and the man in charge of the station took care of the rest
of it for iiim. I should think the records of that transfer would be
traceable.
Mr. Nixon. Where was that?
Mr. Chambers. In Washington, D. C, I believe; certainly some-
where in the District.
Mr. Nixon. You don't know^ where ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; never asked.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall any other cars besides those two?
Mr. Chambers. No, I think he had the Plymouth when I broke
with the whole business.
Mr. Nixon. You don't recall any other hobbies he had ?
Mr. Chambers. I don't think he had any other hobbies.
Mr. Nixon. Did they have a piano ?
Mr. Chambers. I don't believe so. I am reasonably sure they
did not.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall any particular pieces of furniture that
they had ?
Mv. Chambers. The only thing I recall was a small leather cigarette
box, leather-covered cigarette box, wdth gold tooling on it. It seems
to me that box was red leather.
Mr. Nixon. Red leather cigarette box with gold tooling?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall any particular pieces of bedroom furni-
ture they had ?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall possibly what the silver pattern w^as, if
any? Was it sterling ?
Mr. Chambers. I don't recall.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall what kind of chinaware they used ?
Mr. Chambers. No. I have been thinking over these things and
none of that stands out.
Mr. Nixon. What kind of cocktail glasses did they have?
Mr. Chambers. We never drank cocktails.
Mr. NixON. Did they drink ?
Mr. Chambers. They did not drink. They didn't drink with me.
For one thing, I was strictly forbidden by the Communist Party to
taste liquor at any time.
Mr. Nixon. And you didn't drink?
Mr. Chambers. I never drank.
Mr. Nixon. As far as you know, they never drank, at least with you ?
Mr. Chambers. He gave cocktail parties in Government service.
Mr. Nixon. Could you describe Mr. Hiss' physical appearance
for us ?
Mr. Chambers. Mr. Hiss, I should think, is about 5 feet 8 or 9,
slender. His eyes are wide apart and blue or gray,
Mr. Nixon. Blue or gray ?
Mr. Chambers. I think they change.
Mr. Nixon. Sort of a blue-gray ?
Mr. Chambers. Blueish gray, you could say. In his walk, if you
-watch him from behind, there is a slight mince sometime.
668 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. A slight mince ?
Mr. Chambers. Mince. Anybody could observe.
Mr. Nixon. Does Mrs. Hiss have any physical characteristics?
Mr. Chambers. Mrs. Hiss is a short, highly nervous, little woman.
I don't, as a matter of fact, recall the color of her eyes, but she has a
habit of blushing red when she is excited or angry, fiery red.
Mr. Mandel. a picture of Hiss shows his hand cupped to his ear.
Mr. ChamberIs. He is deaf in one ear.
Mr. NixoN. Mr. Hiss is deaf in one ear?
Mr. Hebert. Wliich ear ?
Mr. Chambers. I don't know. My voice is pitched very low and
it is difficult for me to talk and make myself understood.
Mr. Nixon. Did he wear glasses at the time ?
Mr. Chambers. I think he wore glasses only for reading.
Mr. Nixon. Did he tell you how he became deaf in one ear ?
Mr. Chambers. I don't recall that he did. The only thing I re-
member he told me was as a small boy he used to take a little wagon —
he was a Baltimore boy — and walk up to Druid Hill Park, which was
up that time way beyond the civilized center of the city, and fill up
bottles with spring water and bring them back and sell it.
Mr. Nixon. Do you remember any phj^sical characteristics of the
boy?
Mr. Chambers. Timmie?
Mr. Nixon. Yes.
Mr. Chambers. Timmie was a puny little boy, also rather nervous.
Mr. Nixon. This is Mrs. Hiss' son ?
Mr. Chambers. Mrs. Hiss' son by Thayer Hobson, who I think is
one of the Hobson cousins, a cousin of Thornton Wilder. It is possi-
ble I could be mistaken about that.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall anything else about the boy? Do you
recall where he went to school ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; I do. I don't know the name of the school
he was attending then, but they told me that Thayer Hobson was pay-
ing for his son's education, but they were diverting a large part of
that money to the Communist Party.
Mr. Nixon. Hiss told you that ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Did he say how much he was paying ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; I don't know how much he was paying.
Mr. Nixon. Did he name the Communist Party as the recipient ?
Mr. Chambers. Certainly.
Mr. Nixon. He might not have said simply "the party"? Could it
have been the Democratic Party or Socialist Party ?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. Hebert. Hobson was paying for the boy's education ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; and they took him out of a more expensive
school and put him in a less expensive school expressly for that pur-
pose. That is my recollection.
Mr. Nixon. When would that have occurred ?
Mr. Chambers. Probably about 1936.
Mr. Nixon. Did they change in the middle of the year ?
Mr. Chambers. I don't recall. He was a slightly effeminate child.
I think there was some worry about him.
Mr. Stripling. Do you remember anything about his hands ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGL 669
Mr. Chambers. Wliose?
Mr. Stripling. Alger Hiss'.
Mr. Chambers. He had rather long delicate fingers. I don't remem-
ber anything special.
Mr. Mandel. How is it he never wrote anything publicly ?
Mr. Chambers. Well, he came into the underground like so many
Communists did — this was a new stage in the history of American
Communists.
Mr. Mandel. He was never in the open Communist Party ?
Mr. Chambers. He was never in the open Communist Party, came
in as an underground Communist.
Mr. Hebert. Did he have any other brothers or sisters besides
Donald'^
Mr. Chambers. He had one sister, I believe, living with her mother
in Baltimore.
Mr. Hebert. Did he ever talk about her ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; once or twice, and mentioned his mother. He
once drove me past their house, which as I recall, was on or near
Tiinden Street.
Mr. Hebert. What did the sister do ?
Mr. Chambers. I don't think she did anything besides live with
her mother. Whether he had any more than that I don't know.
Mr. Hebert. Yon know he referred to at least one sister?
Mr. Chambers. He did.
Mr. Hebert. Do you recall her name ?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. Hebert. And you don't recall what the sister did ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; I don't think she did anything.
Mr. Hebert. Did it ever come up in conversation that the sister
was interested in athletics ?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. Hebert. Was he interested in athletics ?
Mr. Chambers. I think he played tennis, but I am not certain.
Mr. Hebert. With the sister now — it is very important — you don't
recall the sister?
Mr. Chambers. We merely brushed that subject.
Mr. Nixon. You never met the sister ?
Mr. Chambers. No; nor never met the mother. My impression
was his relations with his mother were affectionate but not too happy.
She was, perhaps, domineering. I simply pulled this out of the air
in the conversation.
Mr. Stripling. Did he go to church ?
Mr. Chambers. He was forbidden to go to church.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know whether he was a member of a church ?
Mr. Chambers. I don't know.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know if his wife was a member of a church ?
Mr. Chambers. She came from a Quaker family. Her maiden name
was Priscilla Fansler before she was married. She came from the
Great Valley near Paoli, Pa.
Mr. Nixon. Did she tell you anything about her family ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; but she once showed me while we were driving
beyond Paoli the road down which their farm lay.
Mr. Nixon. You drove with them ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
670 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
•
Mr. Nixon. Did you ever go on a trip with them other than by
automobile?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. Nixon. Did you stay overnight on any of these trips?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. Hebert. Did she ever refer to her first husband ?
Mr. Chambers. I hope he will never hear this. She referred to him
almost with hatred.
Mr. Hebert. What did she call him, what name?
Mr. Chambers. Probably Thayer.
Mr. Nixon, You don't recall ?
Mr. Chamber's. No.
Mr. Nixon. When did you meet Donald Hiss?
Mr. Chambers. Probably within the same week in which I met
Alger Hiss.
Mr. Nixon. Did you ever stay in Donald Hiss' home?
Mr. Chambers. No. my relation with Donald Hiss was much less
close. I can make that point now, if you will permit. My relation-
ship with Alger Hiss quickly transcended our formal relationship.
We became close friends.
Mr, Nixon. Donald Hiss — what relation did you have with him?
Mr. Chambers. A purely formal one.
Mr. Nixon. He knew you as Carl ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Did you collect dues from him ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon, Did you meet his wife ?
Mr. Chambers. I think I met her once, not very often.
Mr. Nixon. Where did you collect the dues from him. at his home?
Mr. Chambers. Probably in Alger's house. He frequently came
there.
Mr. Nixon. He came there to see you ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall anything significant about Donald Hiss,
as to personal characteristics, hobbies?
Mr. CiiAiMBERS. No. Something else is involved there, too. Donald
Hiss was married, I think, to a daughter of Mr. Cotton, who is in the
State Department, She was not a Communist, and everybody was
worried about her.
Mr. Nixon, (netting back to Alger Hiss for the moment, do you
recall any pictures on the wall that they might have owned at the
time?
Mr. Chajibers. No; I am afraid I don't.
Mr. Nixon. Donald Hiss — do you know any other characteristics
about him, can you recall any?
Mr. Chaimbers. Except I can give you the general impression. He
was much less intelligent than Alger. Much less sensitive than his
brother. I had the impression he was interested in the social climb
and the Communist Party was interested in having him climb. At
one point I believe he was fairly friendly with James Roosevelt.
Mr. Nixon. Did you have any conversations with him you can recall
that were out of the ordinary ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; one I think I can recall. He was working in
the Labor Department, I believe in the Immigration Section, and it
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 671
■was the plan of the Communist Party to have him go to California,
get himself sent b}^ the Government to California, to work in the
Bridges case.
At that moment he had an opportunity to go into the State Depart-
ment as, I think, legal adviser to the Philippine Section, which had
]ust been set up.
It was the opinion of the partj^ that he should do that and not the
Bridges matter. It was his opinion that he should continue in the
Bridges matter and there was a fairly sharp exchange, but he sub-
mitted to discipline and went to the State Department.
Mr. Nixon. Did you make an affidavit concerning Mr. Alger Hiss?
Mr. Chambers. I made a signed statement. I should think it was
about 1945. Before that I had reported these facts at least 2 years
before to the FBI and 9 years ago to Mr. Berle and mentioned Hiss'
name.
Mr. Nixon. Nine years ago, are you certain that you did mention
Hiss' name to Berle '.
Mr. Chambers. I certainly mentioned Hiss' name to Berle, I was
there with Berle precise!}' because — may we go off the record?
Mr. Nixon. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Nixon. Have you seen Hiss since 1938?
Mr. Chambers._ No ; since the time I went to his house and tried to
break him away, I have never seen him since.
Mr. Nixox. AYould you be willing to submit to a lie detector test on
this testimony '.
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; if necessary.
Mr. Nixon. You have that much confidence?
Mr. Chambers. I am telling the truth.
Mr. Nixon. Thank you. I have no further questions.
Mr. Hebert. I am interested in the houses he lived in. You said
several houses. How many houses? Start from the beginning.
Mr. Chambers. As well as I can remember, when I first knew him
he was living on Twenty-eighth Street and when I went to see Mr.
Berle it struck me as strange, because Mr. Berle was living in Stim-
son's house on Woodley Road near Twenty-eighth Street. From there
I am not absolutely certain the order of the houses, but it seems to me
he moved to a house in Georgetown — that I know: he moved to a
house in Georgetown — but it seems it was on the corner of P Street,
but again I can't be absolutely certain of the streets.
Mr. Hebert. It was on a corner ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; and as I recall, you had to go up steps to get
to it.
Mr. Mandel. How many rooms were there in that house?
Mr. Chambers. I don't know offhand, but I have the impression it
was a three-story house. I also think it had a kind of a porch in back
where people sat.
Then if I have got the order of the houses right, he moved to a
house on an up-and-down street, a street that would cross tlie lettered
streets, probably just around the corner from the other house and
very near to his brother Donald.
Mr. Hebert. Still in Georgetown?
Mr. Chambers. Still in Georgetown. I have forgotten the reason
lor his moving. That was a smaller house and, as I recall, the dining
i
672 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
room was below the level of the ground, one of those basement dining
looms ; that it had a small yard in back.
I think he was there when I broke with the Communist Party.
Mr. Hebert. Three houses ?
Mr. Chambers. But I went to see him in the house he later moved
to, which was on the other side of Wisconsin Avenue.
Mr. Hebert. Three houses in Georgetown ?
Mr. Chambers. One on Twenty-eighth Street. |
Mr. Hebert. The last time you saw him when you attempted to *
persuade him to break away from the party
Mr. Chambers. That was beyond Wisconsin Avenue.
Mr. Hebert. Did you ever see their bedroom ; the furniture ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; but I don't remember the furniture.
Mr. Hebert. Did they have twin beds or single beds ?
Mr. Chambers. I am almost certain they did not have twin beds.
Mr. Hebert. In any of the four houses ?
Mr. Chambers. I can't be sure about the last one, but I am reason-
ably sure they did not have twin beds before that.
Mr. Hebert. This little boy, Timmie — can you recall the name of
the school that he went to ?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. Hebert. But you do recall that he changed schools ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; as nearly as I can remember, they told me they
had shifted him from one school to another because there was a saving
and they could contribute it to the party.
Mr. Hebert. What year ?
Mr. Chambers. Probably 1936.
Mr. Hebert. Or 1937, but probably '36?
Mr. Chambers. It is possible.
Mr. Hebert. We can check the year.
Mr. Chambers. The school was somewhere in Georgetown. He
came back and forth every day.
Mr. Nixon. Is there anything further? If not, thank you very
much, Mr. Chambers.
The hearing is adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 1 : 10 p. m., the subcommittee adjourned.)
HEARINGS REGARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
MONDAY, AUGUST 9, 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Special Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. C.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 : 30 a. m., in the
caucus room. Old House Office Building, Hon. Richard M. Nixon
presidino;.
Committee members present : Representatives Richard M, Nixon
(presiding), John McDowell, and F. E'dward Hebert.
Also present : Representatives J. Parnell Thomas (chairman of the
full committee) and Karl E. Mundt.
Staff members present : Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator ;
Louis J. Russell and AVilliam A. Wheeler, investigators; and A. S.
Poore, editor, for the committee.
Mr. Nixon. The hearing will come to order.
This is a meeting of a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities appointed by the acting chairman, Karl E. Mundt, on
August 5. The record will show that the following members of the
subcommittee are present. Mr. McDowell, Mr. Hebert, and Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Stripling, will you call the first witness?
Mr. Stripling. Alexander Koral.
Mr. Forer. Mr. Chairman
Mr. Stripling. Just a moment.
Mr. Koral, you are here in response to a subpena which was served
upon you on August 6 in New York City, directing you to appear
before a subcommittee in the Federal Building in New York City at
7 p. m., on August 6, the said subcommittee being composed of Mr.
Nixon of California, the chairman, Mr. McDowell of Pennsylvania,
and Mr. Hebert of Louisiana.
You api^earecl at the Federal Building in response to that subpena,
did you not ?
Mr. Koral. I did, sir.
Mr. Stripling. At the conclusion of your testimony you were di-
rected to appear before the subcommittee at 10 : 30 a. m., this morning,
here in the caucus room. Is that correct?
Mr. Koral. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Stripling. I believe the subpena directed you to appear at room
226, but the hearing has been removed to this room. You are here in
response to that subpena ?
Mr. Koral. I am here in response to that subpena. I was supposed
to appear in room 13.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Koral, do you have counsel with you ?
80408—48 12 673
674 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr, KoRAL. No, sir ; I haven't.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Stripling, if the witness is going to testify to some-
thing, I want him sworn at this time.
Raise your right hand, Mr. Koral.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. KoRAL. I do, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Be seated, sir.
TESTIMONY OF ALEXANDER KORAL
Mr. Stripling. Do you have counsel with you, Mr. Koral ?
Mr. KoRAL. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Forer, do you have a statement you would like
to make ?
Mr. FoRER. My name is Joseph Forer. I am an attorney. I do
not represent Mr. Koral except for a very limited purpose, which I
shall now explain. This morning, at home, at about 8 : 40 or so, I
received a telephone call from Boston from Mr. Leo Praeger, who is
counsel for Mr. Koral, with Avhom I happen to be acquainted. Mr.
Praeger told me over the phone that he was coming down from New
York to be counsel for Mr. Koral at this hearing, but, unfortunately,
he had taken the wrong plane and ended up in Boston instead of in
Washington. He called me to ask if I would get in touch with the
committee, explain that he had caught the wrong plane, and to inform
the committee that he was getting a plane from Boston to Washinglon
which would get him here at about 12 : 80, and asked me if I would
ask the committee if thej^ could postpone Mr. Koral's appearance until
early this afternoon, when Mr. Praeger would get here.
I telephoned Mr. Stripling and conveyed that information to him,
and Mr. Stripling suggested that I appear before you at this time to
convey Mr. Praeger 's message.
Mr. Nixon. Do I understand, Mr. Forer, that Mr. Praeger will be
here in Washington at 12 : 30 this afternoon?
Mr. Forer. Yes ; I understand that. He told me the plane he had
gotten space on was due to arrive at about that time.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Koral, do I understand you want Mr. Praeger to
represent you in these proceedings ?
Mr. KoRAL. I do, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that you now direct the
witness to appear at 2 o'clock and to appear at that time before the
full committee.
Mr. Hebkrt. Mr. Chairman, may I interrupt before you rule on
Mr. Sti'ipling's request ? I think the record should show that in New
York at the time this witness was instructed to appear here, his at-
torney at that time tried to get a delay and was refused by the com-
mittee. I am perfectly willing to let him come here at 2 o'clock —
that is all I'ight with me — but as I recall, in New York, he wanted
just a few hours' delay, and to accomplish the same purpose that is
being accomplished here now.
j\[r. NixoN. Mr. Koral, you are here, as you understand, in answer
to the subpena. You are directed to appear in answer to that subpena.
lioro at 2 p. m. this afternoon Avitli your attorney.
Mr. KoRAL. Yes, sir. May I make a remark, please ?
Mr. Nixon. Yes.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE ' 675
Mr. KoRAL. I believe, if m,y memoi\y serves me cori-ectly, that my
attorney, Mr. Leo Praeger. asked for a delay of a couple of days, not
for a couple of hours.
Mr. McDowell. He asked for both ; a couple of days and a couple
of llOUl'S.
Mr. KoRAL, That may be so. I recall he spoke of a number of days.
Mr. Hebert. a day, and then when we insisted on his being here
this morning, he asked coUldn\ it be the afternoon. It is perfectly all
right. I just wanted to make the observation, Mr. Chairman, just to
keep the record straight. I am particularly interested in the fact that
the witness has such an active memory that he can remember things
in detail.
Mr. Nixox. Mr. Koral, I shall direct you now, when j'ou return at
2 o'clock, that you shall appear at that time before the full committee
which will be sitting in this room at 2 o'clock. You understand the
directions?
Mr. KoRAL. Yes.
Mr. Xixox. The witness may step down.
Mr. Stripling, is there another witness to be heard at this time before
the subconnnittee?
Mr. Stkiplixg. Mr. Victor Perlo. Mr. Perlo wasn't directed to
uppear until 11 o'clock but it is 5 minutes to 11 now.
Mr. Xixox. In view of the fact that Mr. Perlo is not here and was
not directed to appear until 11 o'clock, the subcommittee will recess
until 11 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 10:53 a. m.. a recess Avas taken until 11 a. m., at
which time the following occuiTed :)
Mr. Nixox. The meeting of the subcommittee will come to order.
Mr. Stripling, will you call the next witness.
Mr. Striplixg. Mr! Victor Perlo.
Do you have counsel with you, Mr. Perlo?
Mr. Perlo. Yes.
Mr. Striplixg. Will counsel identify himself?
Mr. GoLLOBix. Ira Gollobin.
Mr. Striplixg. And your business address?
Mr. GoLLOBix. 1441 Broadway, New York.
Mr. Striplixg. Mr. Perlo. you are here this morning in response
to a subpena which was served upon you on August 6, by Donald T.
Appell. in New York City, calling for your appearance in room 108,
Federal Building, New York City, on August 7, at 10:30 a. m. ; is
that correct ?
Mr. Perlo. Yes.
Mr. Striplixg. You were directed at the conclusion of your testi-
mony on t4iat date to appear before the subcommittee headed by Mr.
Nixon, of California, the chaiinian; Mr. McDowell, of Pennsylvania;
and iMr. Hebert, of Louisiana. They directed j'ou to appear before
this suljcommittee in Washington in room '22C) at 11 a. m. You are
here in response to that direction from the authorit}' of the subpena?
Mr. Perlo. That is correct.
iVIr. Nixox. Mr. Perlo, I now direct that you appear before the full
Connnittee on Un-American Activities at this time.
The meeting of the subcommittee will adjourn, and we will now go
into a full committee meeting.
(Whereupon, at 11 : 10 a. m., the subcommittee adjourned.)
i
HEARINGS REGAEDINCt COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
MONDAY, AUGUST 9, 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. C.
The committee met, pursuant to call, at 11 : 10 a. m., in the caucus
room. Old House Office Building, Hon. J. Parnell Thomas (chair-
man) presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives J. Parnell Thomas
(chairman), Karl E. Mundt, John McDowell, Richard M. Nixon, J.
Hardin Peterson, and F. Edward Hebert.
Staff members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator;
Louis J. Russell, William A. Wheeler, investigators ; and A. S. Poore,
editor,~ for the committee.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. The record will
show that those present are Mr. Nixon, Mr. McDowell, Mr. Mundt,
Mr. Hebert, and Mr. Thomas. A quorum is present.
Mr. Perlo, will you please rise and be sworn ?
Raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give here before this
committee is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Mr. Perlo. I do.
The Chairman. Sit down. Mr, Stripling, you take the witness.
TESTIMONY OF VICTOH PEELO (ACCOMPANIED BY IRA GOLLOBIN,
COUNSEL EOE THE WITNESS)
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, Public Law 601 of the Seventy-ninth
Congress, second session, and House Resolution 5 of the Eightieth
Congress provides the authority for the Committee on Un-American
Activities, United States House of Representatives. Public Law 601
states in part :
Committee on Un-American Activities as a whole or by subcommittee is au-
thorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent, character,
and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, (ii)
the diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and
attacks the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitu-
tion, and (iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in
any necessary remedial legislation.
Pursuant to this mandate the committee has been conducting an
investigation for the past several months into alleged Communist in-
677
678 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
filtration of Communist agents into the Federal Government, and the
operation within the Government of certain persons who were collect-
ing information to be turned over to a foreign government.
The hearing this morning is for the purpose of pursuing this inves-
tigation. Victor Perlo, a former employee of the Government, who
was subpenaed to appear before the Committee on Un-American Ac-
tivities today, is before the committee this morning in connection with
the above-mentioned inquiry. All questions propounded to Mr. Perlo
will be pertinent to the inquiry and he shall be required to answer
them.
Mr. Perlo, will you please state your full name?
Mr. Perlo. Mr. Chairman, before going into the questions I wish
to announce that I have a statement to read to the committee and to
present as testimony at this hearing. I wonder if I may be permitted
to.
Mr. Stripling. We will be glad to take the statement under consid-
eration at the proper time, Mr. Perlo. We would like to have you
identify yourself and I would also like to get your employment back-
ground.
Will you please state your full name?
Mr. Perlo. Victor Perlo.
Mr. Stripling. What is your present address?
Mr. Perlo. 39 Park Avenue.
Mr. Stripling. Is that your business address?
Mr. Perlo. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. What is your home address?
Mr. Perlo. I gave the committee my home address in executive ses-
sion and I would prefer to leave it out of the public hearing if it
doesn't make any material difference.
Mr. Stripling. That is agreeable with me.
The Chairman. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Mr. Stripling. What is your present occupation ?
Mr. Perlo. I am an economist,
Mr. Stripling. Where are you employed ?
Mr. Perlo. By the Progressive Party.
Mr. Stripling. What is the address of the Progressive Party?
Mr. Perlo. 39 Park Avenue, New York, N. Y.
Mr. Stripling. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Perlo. I was born in the county of Queens, New York State,
May 15, 1912.
Mr. Stripling. Where were your parents born ?
Mr. Perlo. My parents were born in towns in what is now the coun-
try of Poland. I wish to state in further development of that question
that both of my parents came here at a very early age, that they are
honored and respected American citizens, that my father has been a
practicing attorney for 43 years and was a member of the Selective
Service Board during World War II for 5 years.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Perlo, would you now detail for the committee
in chronological order your employment in the Federal Government?
Mr. Perlo. In 1933 t went to work for the Federal Government in
Washington for the National Recovery Administration. I was en-
gaged there in doing statistical research, economic research, into vari-
ous questions of the operation of the economy that were wanted by
those officials that were making decisions on certain of the operating
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 679
jjroblems connected with the NRA codes and other regiihitions con-
cerning working hours and other factors under the NRA.
Mr. Striplixg. When did you leave the NRA '^
Mr. Perlo. In 1935.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you go ?
Mr. Perlo. I went to the Home Owners' Loan Corporation.
Mr. Stripling. How long did you remain there ?
Mr. Perlo. For 2 years.
Mr. Stripling. What type of work did you do for the Home Own-
ers' Loan Corporation ?
Mr. Perlo. At the Home Owners' Loan Corporation I was engaged
primarily in statistical research involving, for example, the establish-
ment of statistical analyses of the properties mortgaged to the Home
Owners' Loan Corporation and a projection of the financial accounts
of that agency over a long period of time and similar problems that
were of interest to the officials of the agency.
Mr. Stripling. How long did you remain with the Home Owners'
Loan Corporation?
Mr. Perlo. Two years.
Mr. Stripling. Then where did you go ?
Mr. Perlo. Then I went to the Brookings Institution.
The Chairman. May I interrupt^ I would like to have the record
show that Mr. Peterson is present.
Proceed, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Perlo. At the Brookings Institution I assisted in the prepara-
tion of a volume on wages, production, and national income, which
was an economic analysis of important factors in our economy.
Mr. Stripling. How long did you remain at Brookings Institution?
Mr. Perlo. For 2 years.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you go then ?
Mr. Perlo. Commerce Department.
Mr. Stripling. Do you remember the date you went to the Com-
merce Department ?
Mr. Perlo. It was in 1939.
Mr. Stripling. September 1939?
Mr. Perlo. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. How long did you remain in Commerce?
Mr. Perlo. I remained in Commerce for approximately a year and a
half.
Air. Stripling. While you were in Commerce, were you a special
agent, senior economic analyst in the Bureau of Foreign and Domestic
Commerce ?
Mr. Perlo. That might well be the case. I haven't looked at that
record in some time and I don't recall my exact title, but those may be
the proper titles.
Mr. Stripling. When you left Commerce, where did you go?
Mr. Perlo. I went to the Office of Price Administration. It wasn't
yet named the Office of Price Administration, but it was soon given
that name. At the Office of Price Administration I was Chief of the
Statistical Analysis Branch of the Research Division. I participated
in the analysis of the inflationary pressures developing as w^e got into
a war economy and consequently forming the basis for decisions as to
the necessity for price control.
680 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
In short, in the course of my work there, I think in my own small way
I helped a little bit in preventing ruinous inflation during the war.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you go after you left OP A?
Mr. Perlo. I went to the War Production Board.
Mr. Stripling. Wliat position did you hold at the War Production
Board?
Mr. Perlo. In the War Production Board I was one of the analysts
in the Office of Progress Reports. It was my specific responsibility to
analyze problems involved in the production of aircraft and to pre-
pare reports w^hich I trust were of some small assistance in helping
to increase and accelerate the production of military aircraft during
the war.
The Chairman. May I interrupt right there ? Mr. Stripling, you
didn't get the date w^hen he started with WPB.
Mr. Stripling. Was that February 17, 1943 ?
Mr. Perlo. That sounds about right, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. When you were in the War Production Board, did
you work with the Resources Protection Board ?
• Mr. Perlo, I don't remember for sure, to tell you the honest truth.
Perhaps you can help me out on that. Do you know whether that was
]3art of the War Production Board?
Mr. Stripling. Yes, it was made up of War Production Board per-
sonnel assigned to the Resources Protection Board, which consisted
of a general representing the Army, an admiral representing the Navy,
a colonel representing the Air Forces, a colonel representing Civilian
Defense and an official representing the Provost Marshal General of
the Army and one official representing the War Production Board.
Mr. Perlo. Come to think of it, I probably never did then. I did
have some contact, very minor contact, with an agency that had to do
with production of war plants. Whether that was the same one, I
don't know. In any case, it was a minor and secondary contact.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know Robert A. Graham ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel and on my rights under the fifth
amendment of the Constitution I refuse to answer that question on the
ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Robert A. Graham was employed, was he not, by
the Resources Protection Board ? Didn't Mr. Graham give you spe-
cial permission to examine the secret data in the files of the Resources
Protection Board?
Mr. Perlo. I don't recall any such incident.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Robert A. Graham ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my constitutional rights
under the fifth amendment and refuse to answer this question on the
ground tliat it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
The Chairman. Mr. Perlo, how will this incriminate you? How
will it incriminate you by answering as to whether or not you know
this person ?
Mr. Perlo. It is my understanding that it is not necessary to de-
fend one's use of the fifth amendment to the Constitution in refusing
to answer questions on the ground that they might tend to incriminate
one, and I have to adhere to that position on these questions.
The Chairman. We will get back to that later. You go ahead.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Perlo, where did you go when you left the War
Production Board?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 681
Mr..PERLO. I went to the Treasury Department.
Mr. Stripling. When did yon go to the Treasury Department ?
Mr. Perlo. I went to the Treasury Department in, I guess, about
December of 1945.
Mr. Stripling. Who requested you to come to the Treasury
Department?
Mr. Perlo. Well, nobody exactly requested me to come to the Treas-
ury Department, as I explained to you Saturday. I was informed
that I had been recommended by various people to Mr. Harry D.
White, then I think an Assistant Secretary of the Treasury, and I went
to see him. Subsequent to that conversation I was hired by the
Treasury Department.
Mr. Stripling. That is Harry Dexter White, the head of Monetary
Research ?
Mr. Perlo. He was not head of Monetary Research at that time.
He was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury.
Mr. Stripling. You accepted employment in Monetary Research?
Mr. Perlo. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. How long did you remain in Monetary Research?
Mr. Perlo. Oh, for about a little less than a year and a half, I guess.
Mr. Mundt. Who recommended you to Mr. White ?
Mr. Perlo. I don't know.
Mr. Mundt. You said you went to see Mr. White on the recom-
mendation of somebody.
Mr. Perlo. I said somebody told me. I don't remember who now,
frankly. Somebody told me that various people had recommended
me to Mr. White and that Mr. White was looking for people to in-
crease his staff and replace people with, and suggested that I call him
up and go around and see him. That is what I did.
Mr. Mundt. Did those people tell you who it was that recommended
you to Mr. White ?
Mr. Perlo. As a matter of fact, I am not sure. I think I may have
been told but I don't retain that information in my memory if I was.
Mr. Stripling. While you were in the Treasury Department were
you a member of the Committee for Reciprocity Information?
Mr. Perlo. That is right. The Committee for Reciprocity In-
formation— I was officially — I will explain my duties there a little bit
in connection with that.
I think I was officially an alternate member on the Committee for
Reciprocity Information and the Trade Agreements Committee, w^hich
were identical or substantially identical in membership. These were
interdepartmental committees which took care of all of the technical
work in the preparation of trade agreements under the Reciprocal
Trade Agreement Act and also to a certain extent a lot of prepara-
tory work for the International Trade Organization.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Perlo, are vou a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that question
both on my rights under the first amendment of the Constitution and
on my rights under the fifth amendment of the Constitution on the
ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party at any time ?
682 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Perl.0. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that question
on the ground that it might infringe my rights under the first a*mend-
ment to the Constitution and also under the fifth amendment, on the
ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. During the years you held these various posts with
the Government were you a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel. I stand on my constitutional rights
under both the first and fifth amendments and decline to answer this
question on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade
me.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Perlo, will you stand up and turn around,
please.
Miss Bentley, wnll you please stand up and take off your glasses.
Do you know Elizabeth T. Bentley? Do you know Elizabeth T.
Bentley, who is standing, Mr. Perlo?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that question on
the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever seen Elizabetli T. Bentley before in
your life?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that question
on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Perlo, have you ever given Miss Bentley any secret
or confidential Government information?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel, I stand on my constitutional rights
under the fifth amendment and refuse to answer that question on the
ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Perlo. do you know Henry Collins ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment of tlie Constitution and refuse to answer that question
on the ground that it might tend to incrimi]iate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know John Abt, A-b-t?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that question on
the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Sonia Gold, S-o-n-i-a G-o-l-d?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer that question
on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know William Gold, or Beta. B-e-l-a, Gold?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my constitutional rights
and refuse to answer that question on the ground that it might tend
to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Veet Bassie, V-e-e-t B-a-s-s-i-e?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that question on
the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever in the apartment of Henry Collins
when he was residing in St. Matthews Court in Washington D. C,
in 1935 ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment of the Constitution and refuse to answer that ques-
tion on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Alger Hiss?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my constitutional rights
under the fifth amendment and refuse to answer this question on the
ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE • 683
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Donald Hiss?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer that ques-
tion on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
]Mr. Stripling. Were you ever at the home of Alger Hiss on P
Street in Georgetown in 1935 or 1936 ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my constitutional rights
and refuse to answer this question on the ground that it might tend
to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Whittaker Chambers?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my constitutional rights
under the fifth amendment and refuse to answer this question on the
ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Steve Nelson ?
]Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my constitutional rights
and refuse to answer this question on the ground that it might tend
to incriminate or degrade me.
Mv. StiRIPling. Do you know Gerhart Eisler ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my constitutional rights
and refuse to answer this question on the ground that it might tend
to incriminate or degrade me.
]\Ir. Stripling. Do you know George Silverman ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my constitutional rights
and refuse to answer this question on the ground that it might tend
to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Allan Eosenberg?
]\Ir. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this ques-
tion on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Donald Niven Wheeler ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this question
on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know William H. Taylor, formerly em-
ployed in the Treasury Department ?
]Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my constitutional rights
and refuse to answer this question on the ground that it might tend
to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Eobert T. Miller ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my constitutional rights
under the fifth amendment and refuse to answer this question on the
ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Perlo, while you were employed in the Federal
Government were you ever investigated as a security risk or upon
your loyalty to the United States ?
Mr. Perlo. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever asked to resign from the Government
of the United States?
Mr. Perlo. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Did you resign ?
Mr. Perlo. I resigned.
Mr. Stripling. Did you resign as the result of that request or
resign because vou were a security risk?
Mr. Perlo. No ; I resigned of my own volition.
684 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. How much later after you had been asked to resign
did you resign of your own volition ?
Mr. Perlo. About 4 or 5 months.
Mr. Stripling. Could you reenter Government employment today
if you wanted to ?
Mr. Perlo. I don't want to, and I don't know what would happen
if I tried.
Mr. Stripling. You didn't resign with prejudice, did you?
Mr. Perlo. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, the circumstances regarding his
being invited to resign I would like to lay before the committee in
executive session.
The Chairman. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Perlo, were you ever turned down for a passport
to leave the United States ?
Mr. Perlo. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever apply for a passport to leave the
United States?
Mr. Perlo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. When did you apply ?
Mr. Perlo. Approximately March or April of 1947.
Mr. Stripling. Where w^ere you going ?
Mr. Perlo. Going to England.
Mr. Stripling. What was the purpose of your business in. going
to England ?
Mr. Perlo. To take employment there.
Mr. Stripling. With an agency of the Government ?
Mr. Perlo. No.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever offered a position with the Interna-
tional Governmental Committee on Refugees?
Mr. Perlo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you accept that position ?
Mr. Perlo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you leave the United States in connection with
your work for that committee ?
Mr. Perlo. No, sir; because before I did so I was informed that
steps were being taken to have the offer of the job w^ithdrawn.
Mr. Stripling. Why was the offer of the job going to be withdrawn ?
What information did you have on that?
Mr. Perlo. I don't know. You will have to ask the people over
there in England.
Mr. Stripling. Was it because you couldn't get a passport to leave
the United States?
Mr. Perlo. I don't loiow. The people in England never communi-
cated with me about that. After the passport application I ultimately
withdrew it after I learned there wouldn't be any job over there.
Mr. MuNDT. How long between the time you applied for the passport
and the time you withdrew your application ?
Mr. Perlo. I don't remember. It might have been a few weeks or
a month.
Mr. MuNDT. Could it have been more than a month ?
Mr. Perlo. It could have been.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 685
Mr. MuNDT. Could it have been 2 months ?
Mr. Peklo. I doii"t know.
Mr. MuNDT. It coukl have been ?
Mr. Perlo. I doubt if it would have been that long, but it might
have been.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Perlo, do you know an individual by the name
of Charles Kramer?
]Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel, I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer that ques-
tion on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you recommend him for a job with the Office of
Price Administration?
Mr. Perlo. I wish to consult with my attorney.
(Consultation between Mr. Perlo and Mr. Gollobin.)
The Chairman. Just a minute, Mr. Perlo. I would like to suggest
to the attorney that he should advise the witness as to the constitu-
tional riglits. Go ahead.
(Consultation betw^een Mr. Perlo and Mr, Gollobin.)
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel, I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answ^er this question
on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
The Chairman. Now, Mr. Stripling, will you repeat that question?
Mr. Stripling. I have other questions, Mr. Chairman, I would like
lo proceed on.
The Chairman, Proceed.
Mr, Stripling. Do you know Nathan Gregory Silvermaster?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel, I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment and refuse to answer that question on the ground
that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling, Did you know an individual by the name of Harold
Ware?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel, I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer that ques-
tion on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know an individual by the name of Harry
Magdoff i
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel, I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer that ques-
tion on the ground tliat it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know an individual by tlie name of J. Peters
or Alexander Stevens or Isidore Boorstein?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel, I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this ques-
tion on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Solomon Adler ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel, I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment of the Constitution and refuse to answer this ques-
tion on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Lauchlin Currie?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this question
on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Tripling. Do you know^ an individual by the name of William
Ludv/ig Ullmaii, U-1-l-m-a-n ?
686 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Perlo. Oil advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this question
on the ground that it miglit tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Harold Glasser?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this question
on the ground that it might tend to incrimi-nate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Edward J. Fitzgerald^
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this question
on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Did Allan Kosenbei'g ever turn any information
over to you ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this question
on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Did Donald Wheeler, of the Office of Strategic
Services ever turn any information over to you?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this question
on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Did Charles Kramer ever turn any information
over to you ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this question
on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Did Edward J. Fitzgerald ever turn any informa-
tion over to you ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this question
on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Did Harold Glasser, of the Treasury Department,
ever turn any information over to you?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fiftli amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this question
on tlie ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Did Sol Lischinsky, L-i-s-c-h-i-n-s-k-y, who was
with UNRRA organization, ever turn any information over to you?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer this question on
the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I ask that the witness step aside for
a few moments.
The Chairman. Mr. Perlo, will you step aside, please.
Mr. Stripling. I call Miss Elizabeth T. Bentley.
The Chairman. Miss Bentley, raise your right hand.
Miss Bentley, do you solenmly swear the testimony you will give
before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Miss Bentley. I do.
The Chairman. Sit down.
COMMUNIST ESPIOiSrAGE 687
TESTIMONY OF ELIZABETH T. BENTLEY
Mr. Striplixg. INIiss Bentley, you have previously been identified
in the record.
Do you know Victor Perlo, the witness who just left the stand?
Miss Bextley. Yes ; I do.
Mr. Striplixg. When did you first meet Victor Perlo ?
Miss Bextley. I first met Victor Perlo in the apartment of John
Abt on Central Park West in INIarch 1944.
Mr. Striplixg. In your testimony which you gave before the com-
mittee last week — I believe it was August 3 — you stated that Victor
Perlo headed the so-called Perlo group of Government employees who
were furnishing information to you which you in turn furnished to
the Russian Government or representatives of the Russian Govern-
ment.
Miss Bextley. That is correct.
Mr. Striplixg. Is the person who just left the witness stand the
Victor Perlo who headed that group ?
]SIiss Bextley. Yes ; it is.
Mr. Striplixg. Did Victor Perlo turn information over to you?
Miss Bextley. Yes : he did.
Mr. Striplixg. How many times did Victor Perlo turn information
over to you ?
Miss Bextley. You mean personally, Mr. Stripling? Or by other
people ?
Mr. Striplixg. How manj^ times did he personally turn information
over to you ?
Miss Bextley. I would say seven or eight or nine times, roughly.
INIr. Striplixg. Where did you meet Mr. Perlo wiien he turned this
information over to you ?
Miss Bextley. I met him twice at the apartment of Mr. Abt and
the other times at the apartment of Miss Mary Price in New York
City.
jMr. Striplixg. Do you have the address of the apartment where you
met Mr. Perlo, the apartment of Mary Price?
Miss Bextley. I can't give you the exact street number, but it was
on West Eleventh Street between Seventh Avenue and Hudson Street.
Mr. Striplixg. Did any other memljcrs of the Perlo group turn
information over to you?
Miss Bextley. Personally, you mean?
Mr. Striplixg. Yes.
Miss Bextley. Yes. Do you want me to name them?
Mr. Striplixg. Yes".
Miss Bextley. Charles Kramer, Edward Fitzgerald, Allan Rosen-
berg, Donald Wheeler.
Mr. Striplixg. What type of information did Mr. Perlo furnish
to you ?
Miss Bextley. Mr. Perlo, I understood from him, was a statistician
who was employed in that part of the WPB which handled secret
information on aircraft, and that was the type of information which
he turned over to me. That consisted of production figures listed by
688 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
types of planes — fighters, bombers, transports, photographic planes,
and so on.
Mr. Stripling. Just a moment. Mr. Chairman, at this point I
would like to refer back to the witness' refusal to identify Robert A.
Graham and to state whether or not he had obtained information from
the Resources Protection Board and to advise this committee what
the Resources Protection Board was.
Mr. Chairman, we are prepared to show that Victor Perlo, an em-
ployee of the AVar Production Board, was given special permission
to copy secret data on aircraft production, location of plant-making
engines, wings, struts, aircraft arnuiment, B-29 synclironized turrets,
and automatic computing aircraft gunsights, as well as other similar
data. He was given permission to copy this data from the secret
records of the Resources Protection Board.
The Resources Protection Board drew in secret information from
all phases of the war program, on shipbuilding, artillery development,
tanks, explosives production, bombsights, key chemical production,
aircraft production, and chemical, as well as mechanical, components
for the above. Much of this information was obtained from the
Army, the Navy, and the Air Forces, with the understanding that
(1) the information would remain classified as secret; (2) tliat it
would not bs disseminated to personnel in the War Production Board;
and (3) that it would be used only in a specified manner, which is de-
scribed below :
The Resources Production Board consisted of a general represent-
ing the Army, an admiral representing the Navy, a colonel represent-
ing the Air Forces, a colonel representing Civilian Defense, an official
representing the Provost Marshal General of the Army, and one offi-
cial of the War Production Board. A special staff who were, for
pay-roll purposes, employees of the War Production Board, but
who had unique liaison arrangements with the armed services and
all sections of the War Production Board, Maritime Commission,
et cetera, had access to secret information, compiled and focused this
data to show at a glance the most strategic and vulnerable and key
points in the entire war-production program. For example, their
data would show how many F4F fighters were made by (xrumman
at the Long Island plant this month, how many v:ere scheduled for
next month, for the next year; the location at which engines, pro-
l>ellers, and valves for this plane were produced, with many schedules
of such pi'oduction ; when and where the B-29's would come into
production, and the schedules of future production. The location
of each ordnance plant; of every strategic chemical plant, of each
aluminum plant, et cetera, with the volume produced at each and
schedules of production in future months; the number of freight cars
across vulnerable railroad bridges, and the crippling effect their de-
struction Avould have upon the war program.
These estimates of the need for protecting the key points in our
industry were transmitted back to the armed services under the classi- f.
fication "secret" under armed guard to the extent of about 20 copies,
so that the Army, Navy, and Air Corps could make a sound distribution
of forces and measures to protect the vital points of production and
transportation against destruction.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 689
Victor Perlo received permission to copy this data, Mr. Chairman,
and I don't think it is necessary to detail any further the strategic im-
portance of such information.
The CiiAiRMAX. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Mr. Stripling. Is it your testimony Mr. Perlo turned such infor-
mation over to you ?
Miss Bentley. Yes. I think that covers it with the exception of
bridges over which freight cars went. I don't recall that being in the
information.
Mr. Stripling. Did he ever give you any information regarding
B-29's?
Miss' Bentley. Very little.
Mr. Stripling. When you received this information from Mr. Perlo
and members of his groui), what did you do with it?
Miss Bentley. I took the information with me, read through it,
and in cases where it was handwritten or cases where it was badly
typed, I recopied it and then turned it over to my Kussian contact.
Mr. Stripling. What was the name of the Russian contact that you
turned it over to ?
]\liss Bentley. At first, the first one I had during the days when I
took on the Perlo group, the name of that contact was Jack — Bill, I
am sorry — and later on I was shifted to another contact whose name
was Bill.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever see Mr. Perlo in Washington, D. C. ?
Miss Bentley. No ; I never did.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever call him ?
Miss Bentley. Yes; just once. We had missed connections and I
was in Washington. I called him at his home one evening and we
arranged a connection.
Mr. Stripling. But you didn't see him?
Miss Bentley. I never saw him in Washington.
Mr. Stripling. Was he disturbed because you had called him?
Miss Bentley. I think so. He was rather nervous about the whole
business.
Mr. Stripling. I have no further questions at this time.
Mr. Hebert. Before the witness leaves, may I ask a question?
Miss Bentley, did you ever collect Communist Party dues from
Victor Perlo?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Hebert. And the Victor Perlo you collected Communist Party
dues from is the same Victor Perlo who was just on the witness stand ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Hebert. Where did you collect the Communist Party dues from
him?
Miss Bentley. I collected them from him where I met him, in Mary
Price's apartment in New York City.
Mr. Hebert. When you called him on the telephone in Washington,
how did you identify yourself?
Miss Bentley. I said that this' was Helen calling. I said, '"You
must remember me," and he did.
Mr. Hebert. That is all.
80408 — 48 13
690 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
Mr. MuNDT. No questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Miss Bentley, you have said you turned this mforma-
tion over to your Russian contacts. The names of those contacts were
Jack and Bill. How do you know they were Russian contacts?
Miss Bentley. You mean whether they w^ere Russians or
Mr. Nixon. What led you to make the statement that they were
Russian contacts ? What let you to believe they were ?
Miss Bentley. Because I was introduced to them as such.
Mr. Nixon. Who introduced them to you as such?
Miss Bentley. Originally Jack was introduced to me by a girl con-
tact I had at that time whose name was Catharine, and after Mr.
Golos' death Catharine introduced me to Bill as my new boss.
Mr. Nixon. Did she introduce them to you just as your new boss, or
did she say, "This is your new Russian contact" ?
Miss Bentley. They never mentioned the name "Russian." They
were very careful about that.
Mr. Nixon. You have mentioned it here now.
Miss Bentley, Yes.
Mr. Nixon. You say it is a Russian contact because your previous
boss was a Russian contact ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct ; yes.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Golos ?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. That is the basis for you making the statement ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct ; yes.
■ Mr. Nixon. You don't mean that these people in fact were Russians?
Miss Bentley. If you mean by "Russian" tlie way it is used as
against Lithuanians, and so on, no, because I believe one of my con-
tacts was a Lithuanian instead of being a straight Russian, but if you
mean did they represent the Russian police; yes.
Mr. Nixon. Do you loiow whether they were American born?
Miss Bentley. They were definitely not Americans. They each
had an accent and in the case of Jack he told me he was a Lithuanian
who had been sent from over there here.
Mr. Nixon. I see.
Mr. Hebert. May I interrupt to elaborate more on what Mr. Nixon
has said?
Miss Bentley, in other words, the wdiole pattern of the apparatus
as you understood it from your first contact with the man Golos, the
whole picture was given to you that your future contacts — in other
words, you started with Golos and you knew he was a Russian emis-
sary ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Hebert. He told you in the future whenever you have any con-
tacts
Miss Bentley. That is right.
Mr. Hebert. That these contacts would be introduced to you only
by first names?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Hei^ert. And this was in the sequence of the original instruc-
tions given to you ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 691
Mr. Hebert. So that there was never any doubt in your mind that
A\hen you met Bill, Jack, Paul, or Joe that was in accordance with
3'our original instruction?
Miss Bentlet. That is correct.
Mr. Hebert. And that you followed through and there was no
reason for you to doubt at any time that these were not the proper
individuals who would ultimately turn the information which you
give to them over to the ultimate Russian
Miss Bextley. Yes. In fact, Jack once remarked to me that they
had difficulty in getting the information to the Embassy, so of course
that would bear that out.
Mr. Hebert. There is no doubt in your mind it was set up in the
complete apparatus that has been described?
Miss Bentley. There is no doubt about it in my mind. I wouldn't
have dealt with them in that manner if there had been a doubt in my
mind.
Mr. Hebert. I wanted the committee to get the clear picture that
you didn't just meet Joe, Paul, or somebody and say, "Here is a
package."
INIiss Bentley. They were introduced to me and from that, from
my previous instructions, I recognized that they were my Russian
contacts.
Mr. Hebert. That is all.
Mr. Nixox. Did you discuss the information with them that you
gave to them at any time? Did you discuss the type of information?
Miss Bextley. You mean discuss with the Russian contacts?
Mr. Xixox'. Yes.
Miss Bextley. Oh, yes. certainly ; because they had to give me guid-
ance on what type of material my contacts in the Government should
look for, and they would evidently go throngh it after I handed it to
them and then they Avould conie back with suggestions that this was
good or this was rather worthless and with additional instructions,
evidently, from their superiors as to the type of information they
were searching for.
Mr. Xixox. You in turn gave those instructions to people like Mr.
Period
Miss Bextley. That is correct : yes.
Mr. Nixox. They were supposed to carry out those instructions and
get you the kind of information these people had asked you for?
Miss Bextley. That is correct.
I\Ir. Hebert. Did you tell ]\Ir, Perlo, "I want plans and statistics
on production"?
Miss Bextley. ]Mr. Perlo had alreadv produced those at the first
meeting. What I did was to tell him that particular statistics were
extremely valuable and to intensifj^ his search for more of the same.
Mr. Hebert. You did tell him that, though?
Miss Bextley. Oh. yes.
Mr. Hebert. What did he sa}'?
Miss Bextley. He said he would do his very best.
Mv. Hebert. That is all.
The CiiAiRMAX". ]\Iiss Bentlev, where was this first meeting held ?
^liss Bentley'. Tlie first meeting at which I met Mr. Perlo, includ-
ing others, was at the apartment of Mr. John Abt on Central Park
West. It is near One Hundred and Third Street in New York City.
692 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. Who else was present at that meeting besides Mr.
Perlo and Mr. Abt and yourself '1
Miss Bentley. Edward Fitzgerald, Harry Magdoff, and Charles
Kramer.
The Chairman. Was it at that meeting that the plans w^ere laid
for you to be a courier for this group ?
Miss Bentley. That is correct; yes.
The Chairman. You got your instructions at that meeting?
Miss Bentley. It was rather the other way around. In addition
to being a courier I was the one who was to be in complete charge of
handling that group's operation, and actually it wasn't so much l)eing
a courier because they were the ones who were couriers and brought
it to New York to me. But at that meeting I went over as completely
as possible the type of position each one held in the Government and
the type of position that the rest of the group held, what type of in-
formation was available from each of them, the relative value of such
information, and more or less it was a straightening out of what was
available and giving them instructions on what to look for.
The Chairman. Did Mr. Perlo and these others seem very enthu-
siastic about helping in these espionage rings?
Miss Bentley. Mr. Perlo certainly did. There were possibly one
or two others that were not terribly enthusiastic.
The Chairman. But Mr. Perlo did show his enthusiasm in an effort
to get information about our war effort for the Russian Government?
Miss Benti^ey. I would say he was the most energetic one in that en-
tire group.
The Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Mtjndt. Did Mr. Perlo know what use you were going to make
of the information he gave you ?
Miss Bentley. I rather gather so from the remark he made to me
at that first meeting, because he turned to me and said, "Is Joe getting
all this stuff safely?" And there was an embarrassed pause and no-
body answ^ered his question.
Mr. Mundt. By "Joe" you think he meant Joe Stalin.
Miss Bentley. Oh, yes.
The Chairman. Any other questions ?
Mr. Hebert. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
Miss Bentley, during these hearings two specific groups have been
-joamed — one, the so-called Perlo group, and the other, the so-called
kSilvermaster group, which encompasses the names of about 20 in-
dividuals, at a haphazard guess.
Miss Bentley. I would say so, roughly.
Mr. Hebert. Would you say that those are the only two such groups
in operation, or that there were other groups of which you have no
knowledge ?
Miss Bentley. I would imagine from what I had heard very indi-
rectly that those were only tw^o of a good many other groups.
Mr. Hebert, That there were many other groups operating in the
Government similar to the Perlo and the Silvermaster group?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I would definitely say so.
Mr, Hebert. The reason I ask you that is to have it very clear that
this whole espionage could not possibly have been carried on by just
these two groups, the so-called Perlo group and the so-called Silver-
master group.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 693
Miss Bextley. I do know from my Russian contact Jack, who told
me of other people that he had been contacting in the Government,
not by name and position, but he mentioned there were other people,
so I take it for granted there must have been.
Mr. HEBf^RT^It would be perfectly logical for this committee to
assvmie that while the Perlo group and the Silvermaster group have
been identified, there are innumerable other groups under similar cir-
cumstances wliich operated under similar heads to Perlo and Silver-
master that we haven't found out about yet ?
Miss Bentley. I would think it extremely likely from what I have
heard; yes.
Mr. Hebert. Tliat is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stru'ling. I will ask Miss Bentley to step aside and ask Mr.
Perlo to take the stand.
The Chairman. Mr. Perlo, will j^ou take the stand?
TESTIMONY OF VICTOR PERLO— Resumed
]\fr. Strit'eing. Mr. Perlo, did you furnish any information to
Elizabeth T. Bentley?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
6fth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer this question
on tlie ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have a statement, Mr. Perlo?
Mr. Perlo. Yes, sir.
Mr. McDowell. Is this the same statement you had Saturday?
Mr. Perlo. The same one.
Mv. McDowell. Is it changed in any way ?
Mr. Perlo. It has been amended to indicate it is being submitted
to the full committee today.
Ml". McDowell. Is that the only change ?
Mr. Perlo. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. If the committee is going to accept the statement, I
want the witness to read it into the record.
Mr. Nixon. At this time ?
Mr. Stripling. At this time, if they are going to accept it.
The Chairman. Just a minute.
Mr. Nixon. There is one point about which I would like to question
the witness before reading the statement.
Mr. Perlo. this is the same statement except for, as you say, chang-
ing the name of the subcommittee to the full committee; is that cor-
rect ? The statement you submitted in New York ?
Mr. PEitLO. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. I refer you to your statement, to the sixth paragraph,
to this sentence :
I vigorously deny the charges which have been leveled against me.
Were you in the room when Miss Bentley just testified now?
Mr. Perlo. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Those were the charges which Miss Bentley made against
you, previously in testimony before this committee. She repeated
those charges now. Do you mean by this statement that you intend
to read that you vigorously deny the charges that Miss Bentley made
then and that she made today before this committee ?
694 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr, Perlo. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. You deny the charge that Miss Bentley made that you
gave her secret information ? That is untrue, isn't it ?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel
Mr. Nixon (interposing). Just a minute. You said that you deny
the charges Miss Bentley had made. Do you deny the charges or don't
you deny the charges?
(There was a short pause by the witness.)
Mr. Nixon. Answer the question. You answered the question "yes"
before. Do you wish to change the answer to the question ?
]\Ir. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution
Mr. Nixon. Finish your statement.
Mr, Perlo. And refuse to answer the question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. NixoN. Mr. Perlo, I quote again from the statement that you
have submitted to this committee to read under oath :
I vigorously deny the charges which have l>een leveled against me.
Do you at this time repudiate that part of your statement and want
to take it out of your statement ?
Mr. Perlo. By no means do I wish to repudiate that statement. I
want to point oiit that my refusal to answer questions on the ground
of possible self-incrimination involves no hesitation or shame on my
part. The fifth amendment to the Constitution is designed not to
])rotect the guilty but to protect the innocent, especially from charges
leveled and discussed under conditions of near hysteria such as have
surrounded the w^hole handling of these hearings in the press and
elsewliere.
Mr. McDowell. A parliamentary inquiry, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDowell. Do I understand it to be the ruling of the Chair
that this fifth paragraph remain in tlie statement and that it become
an ofhcial part of the records of this committee and that if these charges
are proven, Mr. Perlo is subject to prosecution for perjury?
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell, I am not a parliamentarian and I
Avill just have to give my humble opinion. My opinion is he would be
subject to perjury.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, in that connection, if the committee
is considering possible i)erjury, I suggest that a direct question be put
to the witness and a direct reply made. In making the general state-
ment— I am not sure it would come within the category of perjury.
The Chairman. Mr. Nixon has the floor.
You may proceed.
Mr. Nixon. I again refer you to your statement :
I vigorously deny the charges which have been leveled against me.
One of the charges which has been leveled against you is that you
gave secret Government information to INIiss Bentley. Do I under-
stand you to say now that you vigorously deny that charge?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the fifth
amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer that question on
the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Nixon. Then, you do not wish to keep this particular statement
in, because this statement is not true; is that correct?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 695
Mr. Perlo. I wish to keep the sentence in the statement.
Mr. Nixon. You vigorously deny the charges made against you and
yet you refuse to testify on the ground th.at you may incriminate
yourself when asked about a specific charge. Is that it?
Mr. Peklo. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. NixoN. On what grounds ?
Mr. Perlo. On the ground that it might tend to incriminate or
degrade me.
Mr. Nixox. Mr. Perlo, another of the charges which has been leveled
against you is that you obtained secret information from the agency
in which you worked and that you gave that information to miauthor-
ized people — namely, to Miss Bentley.
You have heard those charges made here today just as they were
made to the committee by Miss Bentley in public session a few days
ago. I understand that now, although you wish to have that state-
ment read into the record in which you deny these charges categori-
cally, without making any exceptions, nevertheless you will refuse to
answer "yes'' or "no" as to the truth or falsity of the major charge
against you. Is that correct?
Mr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I stand on my rights under the
fifth amendment to the Constitution and refuse to answer the question
on the ground that it might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Nixox. Mr. Chairman, I think that is a pretty good indication
of how much credence the committee can give to all of the statements
made by Mr, Perlo in this statement that he is submitting to the
committee.
Mr. Perlo. I must express resentment against that statement, con-
sidering that as a witness I have merely stood on my constitutional
rights, which I have emphasized before are designed not to protect
the guilty but to protect the innocent, and it doesn't seem to me a
judicial type of procedure to rebuke the use of the Constitution of the
United States by a witness in a hearing.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Perlo, by making the statement that you deny the
charges you, in effect, are saying that Miss Bentley perjured hei'self.
You have the right to say that before this committee if you can back
it up with facts, but when we question you in regard to what respect
Miss Bentley has made false charges against you, you refuse to testify.
We are not attempting to badger you as a witness. We simply want
to get the truth. You have the right to plead self-incrimination on
any particular matter, and you will note that the committee has never
questioned that right, but certainly now, as a member of the commit-
tee, I question the right of any witness to come before this committee
and make the categorical charge that the charges made by another
witness are false and still refuse to answer questions concerning those
specific major charges.
That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Chairman, before you rule on that, there is another
part of this fifth paragraph in which the witness says :
The Government has already spent a half million dollars on them.
How do you know that to be a true statement, Mr. Perlo?
Mr. Perlo. It was reported in various newspaper reports and I
am not sure whether or not it was mentioned in President Truman's
statement.
696 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Hebert. You don't know that of your own knowledge ?
Mr. Perlo. No ; I don't.
Mr. Hebert. But you make the statement in here of your own
knowledge.
You don't know, do you?
Mr. Perlo. No ; I don't know for a fact that the Government has
spent that.
Mr. Hebert. Now, let me read another sentence :
A grand jury sat for over a year investigating them and found no basis for
Indictments in ttiose charges despite improper nevs^spaper pressure for such
indictments.
How do you know that is a true statement ?
Mr. Perlo. I know that is a true statement, the first part of it, be-
cause the President stated that this was the case, that the grand jury
sat for a long time and considered these charges and found no basis
for indictment.
Mr. Hebert. Do you linow of your own knowledge that the grand
jury has found no basis for indictments?
Mr. Perlo. I assume the President's word on this is accurate.
Mr. Hebert. I am not talking about the President's word. I am
asking: Do you know? The President can speak for himself, and I
want 3'ou to speak for yourself. Do you know ?
Mr. Perlo. I assume— —
Mr. Hebert (interposing). You don't know. I am not asking for
assumptions. I am asking if you know that the grand jury in New
York has found no basis for indictments.
Mr. Perlo. You ask me if I know something, and anything which
I think I know or which you laiow is based on what you know of a
situation. What I know about the situation is that I know they worked
for a long time, just fi'om the newspaper stories about their activities,
but they were working, and I know the President made the state-
ment—— -
Mr. Hebert (interposing). I am not talking about the President,
Mr. Perlo ; I am asking what do you know about it?
Mr. Perlo. I know these facts about it, and these facts are sufficient
for me to draw the conclusion
Mr. Hebert (interposing). Do you know as a matter of fact that
the New York grand jury has found no basis for an indictment against
you ?
Mr. Perlo. Sir?
Mr. Hebert. Do you know for a fact the New York grand jury
has found no basis for an indictment against you, Victor Perlo ?
Mr. Perlo. I think I am justified in coming to that conclusion by
the actual development of events ; yes.
Mr. Hebert. Do you know that the New York grand jury is still
sitting on this case ?
Mr. Perlo. That I don't know. I read that the grand jury had
been recessed.
Mr. Hebert. Do you know that the grand jury has never returned a
no true bill against one Victor Perlo?
Mr. Perlo. That this
Mr. Hebert (interposing). You know these other things so specif-
ically ; why don't you know that ?
Mr. Peulo. Well, my answers weren't related to the question of a
no true bill.
Mr. Hebekt. I am asking you the question : Do you know that the
grand jurj^ in New York has or has not returned a no true bill against
you, Victor Perlo?
Mr. Peklo. No, sir ; I don't know that.
Mr. Hebert. Then, you don't know.
Mr. Perlo. No, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Then, you do know that the grand jury is only in
recess and can still return an indictment against you, Victor Perlo?
Mr. Perlo. Yes, sir; if that is the legal situation, that is the case.
Mr. Hebert. So then you are not absolved by, as of this date, the
fact that the New York grand jury has not indicted Victor Perlo?
Mr. Perlo. I don't know what the legal status is.
Mr. Hebert. You know all about the other legal statutes. I am just
trying to find out what you know about this.
Mr. Perlo. I do not claim to be a legal expert about this.
Mr. Hebert. Have j^ou ever appeared before the New York grand
jury?
Mr. Perlo. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. The Chair would like to interrupt right there. The
witness has presented a statement. The committee has no objection
to his reading the statement. I think the witness should proceed and
read the statement, and then, after he has finished reading the state-
ment, I think it would be proper for the members of the committee to
ask questions at that point.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Chairman, may I say there that I originally agreed
to let the witness read the statement, but I want it thoroughly under-
stood in the witness' own mind that if he reads this statement he is
reading it under a perjury shadow, and I, for one, will assume that
if he denies anything in here, as general as it might be, that he is
subject to perjury charges, and Mr. Nixon has tried futilely but vigor-
ously to get this witness to say specifically what he means and what
he doesn't mean. I do not believe he should come in here under the
cloak of a general politicalized statement, which will be developed if
he does read it in an effort to make a political speech, in an effort to
make statements without foundation, when he is given the opportunity
to back up his statements he refuses to do so and he conducts the smear
campaign.
The Chairman. I think we can ask the witness questions after he
has read his statement.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Chairman, before he reads his statement, I want
to be sure that the witness understands his legal status before this
committee.
You understand — and you have counsel available if you do not
understand — that the laws of perjury apply to the statement you are
about to read.
Mr. Perlo. Certainly.
Mr. MuNDT. You understand that ?
Mr. Perlo. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. You understand also that the charges have been made
that you know Miss Bentley. The charges have been made that you
know Charles Kramer. If you read this statement saying specifi-
cally that you deny all charges and it can subsequently be proved that
you have known or met either Miss Bentley or Mr. Kramer, you are
then subject to perjury. You understand that, don't you? I want to
know that you understand that before you read it.
Mr. Perlo. I question whether
Mr. MuNDT. There is no question. I want to be sure you under-
stand your rights before this committee. You can talk to your counsel
about it.
Mr. Perlo. Yes.
(Consultation between Mr. Perlo and Mr. Gollobin.)
The Chairman. Are you ready to answer the question, Mr. Perlo?
(Consultation between Mr. Perlo and Mr. Gollobin.)
Mr. Perlo. I refuse to answer this question on the ground of my
constitutional rights under the fifth amendment in that answering it
might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. MuNDT. Nothing about that answer would incriminate vou. I
want to know whether you understand that you are testifying under
the laws of perjury and that if what you read is subsequently proven
to be false in any respect you are subject to the laws of perjury. Do
you understand that before reading your statement?
Mr. Perlo. Yes; although I can't say that I agree with every in-
terpretation of the law of perjury which the gentleman makes. In
other words, let me give you an example
(Consultation between Mr. Perlo and Mr. Gollobin.)
Mr. Perlo. All right.
Mr. MuNDT. Counsel doesn't want you to give the example. Is that
right ?
Mr. Perlo. I will give it. It doesn't make any difference. I am
sure he won't be mad at me for giving it.
To draw the thing to a ridiculous extreme, you can say that part of
the charge was that I worked for the Government in Washington and
that by vigorously denying the charges I am denying that I worked
for the Government in Washington, and I got the impression from
some of the points that j^ou made that this warning you vrere giving
me was really warning me about things that were not essential parts
of any charges leveled against me.
Mr. MtTNDT. It is highly essential whether or not you have met Miss
Bentley, whether or not you have met Mr. Kramer. I mentioned
those two things specifically. The matter about your working for the
Government is a matter of government and not a matter of a charge
by anybody.
If you understand fully the situation in which you find yourself and
wish to read yovir statement as it is under those conditions, you may
do so.
(Consultation between Mr. Perlo and Mr. Gollobin.)
The Chairman. Are all members willing to have him read his state-
ment ?
Mr. Hkbert. He hasn't made up his mind.
Mr. Perlo. I have made up my mind, and I am ready to read it any
time.
Mr. Hebert. You have made up your mind that you realize you are
subject to perjury if you make a statement there and specifically what
Mr. Mundt and Mr. Nixon has asked you about — I am not interested
in ad absurdum charges — I am interested in those specific things.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 699
You said under oath you did not know Miss B?ntley.
jNIr. Striplixg. He didn't testify to that.
]Mr. Hebert. I mean he refused to answer the question. He woukl
if lie reads this; that is what I want to point out. If he reads that.
Mr. Stripling. It wou.kl have to be a direct question, Mr. Hebert,
for perjury to be sustained.
Tlie Chairman. Go ahead, ]Mr. Perlo, and read your statement.
(Consuhation between Mr. Perlo and Mr. Gollobin.)
Mr. Stripling. ]\Ir. Perlo
The Chairman. Just a minute. He is talkinjj to his counsel.
(Consultation between Mr. Perlo and Mr. Gollobin resumed.)
Mr. Perlo. After consultation with counsel and in view of the inter-
pretation which the members of the committee, the detailed interpre-
tation which they make of the sentence in question, I will delete that
one sentence from the statement before reading it.
The Chairman. You may do so. That is the sentence which begins,
"I vigorously deny the charges" ?
Mr. Perlo. That is right.
The Chairman. You go ahead and read now.
Mr. Perlo. O. K.
The Chairman. Go ahead, Mr. Perlo, and start reading.
;Mr. Perlo. My name is Victor Perlo. I was born in 1912 in Queens
County, N. Y., where I now reside. I graduated from Columbia
College in 1931, and received my master's degree in mathematics at
Columbia University the following year. I have contributed to vari-
ous technical publications on economic, statistical, and mathematical
subjects. I did '2 years of research in wage and price economics at
the Brookings Institution.
From 1933 through 1937 I served at the NRA and the Home Owners'
Loan Corporation, helping in my humble way to carry out the great
New Deal program under the leadership of Franklin D. Roosevelt.
From 1939 through 19i7 I served at the Commerce Department, the
Office of Price Administration, the War Production Board, and the
Treasury. I contributed my small i)art to the establishment of the
price controls which prevented ruinous inflation during World War II,
to the acceleration of war production necessary for victory, and to the
development of peaceful world trade after the war.
I am now a consulting economist in New York, employed for the
current campaign by tlie Progressive Party.
The lurid spy charges of the Bentley woman and of Chambers are
inventions of irresponsible sensation seekers. The Government has
already spent a half million dollars on them. A grand jury sat for
over a year investigating them and found no basis for indictments in
those charges despite improper newspaper pressure for such indict-
ments. Therefore it is the height of legal and moral impropriety
for this committee to rake up these charges which have been fully
sifted by normal judicial processes.
I am a loyal American citizen, and I categorically assert that I have
never violated the laws or interests of my country.
I am proud of my record of service to the people while in Govern-
ment employment.
I am particularly proud of my present opportunity to contribute
to the' great campaign of Hein-y Wallace for peace, against inflation,
and for decent living standards and full democratic rights for all
700 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
people. Nothing will deter me from continuing to make my small
contribution to building an abundant and prosperous America.
It is becoming increasingly clear that despite headline spy sensa-
tions, the people resent the failure of the special session of Congress
to act on the urgent problems facing the country. The people will
echo Mr. Wallace's call for more red meat and less red herrings.
The people will increasingly demand election of a Congress and
Government which will bring prices down and incomes up, which
will provide housing, education, health, and peace.
I am confident that public sentiment will be revolted by witch
himts, and will demand instead the investigation of war instigators,
of fomenters of race hatred, of those who are truly endangering our
very civilization today.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell, do you have any questions?
Mr. McDowell. No.
The Chairman. Mr. Hebert, any questions?
Mr. Hebert. No questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling, do you have any more questions?
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I ask that the witness remain under
subpena.
The Chairman. Without objection, it is so ordered.
You are excused.
Mr. Perlo. All right. There is one other point I wanted to come
back to briefly, if I might.
That is to get the record straight on aspects of my Government
employment record which were brought into the testimony. What
is the name of this agency concerning which there was read into the
record a long description of its duties, and so forth and so on ?
Mr. Stripling. The Resources Protection Board.
Mr. Perlo. The Resources Protection Board ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Perlo. I just want to state for the record, since you asked me
at one stage about my connection with it, that as I said earlier I don't
remember any details. This is probably the same thing I have as-
sociated in my mind as Plant Protection Board, or something like
that, with which I had very trivial relations and concerning which
all this talk about highly secret and complicated information, and
so on. and so forth, which were detailed here and which I believe even
Miss Bentley had something to say about, I knew nothing of.
There is one other little point I would like to get straight for the
record.
Mr. Nixon. Just a moment. On that statement you just made do
I understand that you indicate you had no access to secret and con-
fidential information; is that correct?
Mr. Perlo. I didn't say I had no access to any at all, but that all
of these things, most of which I had never heard of before that were
discussed in the report of this agency, were — I didn't have any access to.
Mr. Nixon. You had access then to some secret information ?
Mr. Perlo. That is right, sure.
Mr. Nixon. In that connection I want to refer you just briefly to this
one statement in the statement you have filed :
I have never violated the laws of my country.
You, of course, are familiar with the law which makes it a crime
to divulge any secret information to any unauthorized persons. Do
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 701
3'Ou mean by tliis statement that you have never divulged any secret
information to any unauthorized person?
JMr. Perlo. On advice of counsel I have to refuse to answer that
question.
Mr. Nixon. That is all.
The Chairman. You are excused, Mr. Perlo.
JMr. Perlo. May I make just one other point?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Perlo. I wisli to make it clear that I came to this hearing volun-
tarily, received a subpena for same willingly, and I would like to see
corrected grossly misleading reports which were contained in some
of the more sensational press.
The Chairman. Mv. Perlo, we haven't anything to do with that.
The lecord will stand for itself.
JMr. Hebert. I think for the record also Mr. Perlo said he came
voluntarily to this committee meeting.
The Chairman. He added that he was subpenaed.
JMr. Hebert. But he did not come to the committee until he was
subpenaed, nor did he ask to appear until he was subpenaed.
The Chairman. I think the record is clear on that point.
We will recess until 2 : 30 this afternoon.
( Whereupon, at 12 : 27 p. m., the committee recessed, to reconvene
at 2 : 30 p. m. of the same day. )
afternoon session
The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
The Chair would like to announce that beginning with tomorrow
these meetings will start promptly at 10 o'clock, and close at 12, and
recess until 2, and then close at 4 o'clock in the afternoon.
The first witness this afternoon is Mr. Alexander Koral.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, before we hear from Mr. Koral, I
have one brief witness, and I just want to ask a few questions. It
will not take too much time, and she has to go back to her office.
Miss Burke, would you please stand and be sworn.
The Chairman. Will 3'OU raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you will give before this
committee is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God ?
Miss Burke, I do.
The Chairman. You may sit down.
TESTIMONY OF GILDA DE FRANK BURKE
Mr. Stripling. Miss Burke, you are here before this committee in
response to a subpena which was served upon you, are you not ?
Miss Burke. Yes.
JMr. Stripling. Will you please state your full name and present
address.
Miss Burke. Gilda DeFrank Burke, Old Dominion Gardens, Alex-
andria, Va.
Mr. Stripling. Where are you employed. Miss Burke ?
Miss BuiiKE. War Assets Administration.
Mr. Stripling. How long have you been employed there ?
Miss Burke. March 25, 1946.
702 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Striplinq. How long have you been employed in the Federal
Government ?
Miss Burke. Since December 3, 1941.
Mr. Stripling. Since you have been employed in the Federal Gov-
ernment, were you ever assigned to Nathan Gregory Silvermaster as
his secretary?
Miss Burke. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Would you tell the committee during what periods
you were assigned to Mr. Silvermaster as a secretary ?
Miss Burke. 1943, and from 1944 to 1946 as his administrative
officer.
Mr. Stripling. In 1943 he was employed in the Farm Security Ad-
ministration; is that correct?
Miss Burke. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. In 1944 to 1946, he was in Surplus Property ?
Miss Burke. That is right.
Mr. Stripling, And you were his secretary and administrative as-
sistant during that period ?
Miss Burke. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have the telephone directory or the finder
which you used while you were employed as Mr. Silvermaster's
secretary ?
Miss Burke. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Will you hand it to me, please ?
(Telephone directory handed to Mr, Stripling.)
Mr. Stripling. Will you look through that list and tell me whether
or not the name of Frank Coe appears therein ?
Miss Burke. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know whether or not Mr. Silvermaster ever
communicated with Frank Coe ?
Miss Burke. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Will you also look in that list and tell me whether
the name B. Gold or Bela Gold appears ?
Miss Burke. YeSv it does.
Mr. Stripling. Did he also communicate with Bela Gold ?
Miss Burke. Yes, sir.
Mr, Stripling. Will you also look up the name of Harold Glasser?
Miss Burke. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Did he communicate with Harold Glasser?
Miss Burke. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Harry Magdoff ?
Miss Burke. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did he also communicate with Harry Magdoff?
Miss Burke, Yes ; he did.
Mr. Stripling. Is the name of Lee Pressman in the telephone book
finder?
Miss Burke, Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. Stripling, Did he communicate with Lee Pressman?
Miss Burke, Yes, sir,
Mr. Stripling, Will you look up the name George Silverman?
Miss Burke, Yes, sir.
Mr, Stripling, Did he also communicate with George Silverman?
Miss Burke. Yes ; he did.
JNIr. Stripling. Will you look up the name William Ullmann?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 703
Miss Burke. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did he communicate with William Ullmann?
Miss Burke. Yes ; he did.
Mr. Stripling, Is the name of Harry Dexter White in the tele-
phone directory?
Miss Burke. Yes ; it is.
Mr. Stripling. Is it listed as Harry White or Harry Dexter White?
Miss Burke. Just Harry White.
Mr. Stripling. Did he communicate with Harry White?
Miss Burke. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Is the name of David Wahl also in that directory ?
Miss Burke. Yes ; it is.
Mr. Stripling. Did he communicate with David Wahl?
Miss Burke. Yes ; he did.
Mr. Stripling. Is the name Keeney listed in the directory?
Miss Burke. Yes ; it is.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know whether or not he ever communi-
cated with an individual by the name of Phillip O. Keeney?
Miss Burke. I have just Keeney here; I do not recall what the
first name was.
Mr. Stripling. What number does it give?
Miss Burke. FEA-229T.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I ask that the telephone locator be
received by the committee, as thei'e will be subsequent questions about
it at a later session, when several of these witnesses appear.
Now, I would like to ask the witness one more question.
The Chairman. Without objection, so ordered.
(The telephone locator referred to was received by the committee
and will be found in the files of the committee.)
Mr. Stripling. During the time that you were employed as Mr. Sil-
vermaster's secretary, did he ever ask you or send you to deliver a
package to Lauclilin Currie?
Miss Burke. It was not exactly a package; it was in a letter en-
velope, and I did deliver it.
Mr. Stripling. You did deliver it. Where did you deliver this
package, this envelope?
Miss Burke, The second floor of the old State Department Build-
ing.
Mr. Stripling. Do you remember approximately when you deliv-
ered it '.
Miss Burke. It was while he was in Agriculture — it must have been
in 1943.
Mr. Stripling. 1943. Do you know what was in the envelope ?
Miss Burke. No ; I do not.
ISIr. Stripling. At that time did you type Mr. Silvermaster's letters ?
Miss Burke. Yes, sir; I did,
Mr. Stripling. But you are not aware of what was in this particular
envelope ?
Miss Burke. No, sir,
Mr, Stripling. Those are all the questions I have at this time, Mr.
Chairman, The witness will be called back when Mr, Ullmann
testifies.
The Chairman. Does any member have any questions ?
Mr, Stripling, do you have any more questions ?
704 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Not at tliis time, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Then you are excused, Miss Burke. You will be
called at a later date.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, we would like to get this information
regarding the Silvermaster case, because certain witnesses who will
appear tomorrow will be questioned concerning this.
Several days ago when Mr. Silvermaster was here, Mr. Hebert
questioned him rather closely regarding a photo laboratory, or about
photographic equipment, which was in the basement of his home.
Mr. Hebert has a very pertinent piece of evidence there which we
would like to receive at this time.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Chairman, with the permission of the committee
I want to direct attention to a copy of the Washington Star of Satur-
day, May 3, 1947, page B-2, which is the real-estate section of that
newspaper, and direct the committee's attention to an ad in the paper
headed "Chevy Chase, D. C." The site is by the new St. John's College,
and then there is a picture of .a residence, a single detached residence,
identified by the street number 5515 Thirtieth Street NW., and the
description of the house which is listed by Frank S. Phillips, real
estate, priced for a quick sale, and Frank Phillips, the real estate man,
is listed as being at 927 Fifteenth Street NW., and his telephone
District 1411, and I read the description of the house :
The interior of this fine brick home must be seen to be appreciated. Custom
built 9 years ago, contains nine rooms and three baths, including den on first
floor, and four sleeping rooms and two baths on the second floor, containing
completely finished and heated third floor. Basement contains maid's room
and bath —
and I direct the committee's attention to the next description of the
house —
In the basement an excellent photographic room, workshop, gas hot-water heat,
detached garage, slate roof, copper tubing, storm sash, beautiful lot 135 feet deep,
with highly productive vegetable and fruit garden.
I direct the committee's attention particularly to the "excellent
photographic room" and also to the testimony of Miss Bentley that
the house did have a fine productive garden in the back of the house
of tlie Silvermaster house that she knew, visited, and stayed at.
I ask that that be placed in the record, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. It is in the record.
The next witness, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Alexander Koral.
The Chairman, Will you stand, Mr. Koral, and raise your right
hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Kcral. I do.
The Chairman. Sit down, sir.
TESTIMONY OF ALEXANDER KORAL
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Koral, you have counsel with you?
Mr. Koral. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Boston lawyer?
Mr. Koral. New York lawyer.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 705
Mr. Praeger. 'My. Chairman
Mr. Stripling. Will you identify yourself, please?
Mr. Praeger. Mr. Chairman, I cannot let that go unnoticed.
Through some mistake of the air lines, I found myself in that cradle
of American liberty, Boston, Mass., and then b}^ painful stages worked
myself down to AVashington.
I apologize to the committee for causing this delay, and it certainlj^
was unintentional.
Mr. Stripling. Would you fully identify yourself, please, for the
record ?
]\Ir. Praeger. Boston address or New York address, Mr. Stripling ?
Mr. Stripling. Both.
Mr. Praeger. Leo Praeger, 401 Broadway, New York City, late of
Boston, early this morning.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Koral, will you please state your full name,
and talk into the microphone.
Mr. Koral. Alexander Koral.
Mr. Stripling. When and where were you born, Mr. Koral ?
Mr. Koral. London, England, April 18, 1897.
Mr. Stripling. What is your present address ?
Mr. Koral. 209 Empire Boulevard, Brooklyn, N. Y.
ISIr. Stripling. Is that 209 or 290 ?
Mr. Koral. I am sorry, 290 Empire Boulevard.
Mr. Stripling. What is your present occupation?
Mr. Koral. Assistant engineer for the bureau of construction of
the board of education of the city of New York.
Mr. Stripling. How long have you been employed there ?
Mr. Koral. Save for a lay-off of about 21 months, I have been there
continuously since January 1922.
Mr. Stripling. Are you married, Mr. Koral ?
Mr. Koral. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Do joii have any children?
Mr. Koral. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. How old are the children ?
Mr. Koral. I will have to figure that ; 24 is the oldest.
Mr. Stripling. Would you identify him, please?
Mr. Koral. That is Richard — the full name is Richard Lee; and
the younger boy, Gilbert Roy, is a year and 5 months younger.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Koral, are you now or have jou ever been a
member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer that question on the ground that
my answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Koral, have you ever been acquainted with an
individual known to you only as Frank?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer that question on the ground that
the answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. In 1939, did you meet an individual that you knew
only by the name of Frank?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know an individual by the name — the first
name being Gaik, G-a-i-k, and the last name S-o-v-a-k-i-m-i-a-n?
80408 — 48 14
706 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. KoRAL. I decline to answer that question on the ground that it
may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, that individual was arrested on May
5, 1941, and June 6, 1941. He was held on a warrant as a Soviet for-
eign agent on $25,000 bail. He resided at Dean Brook at 97 Brooklyn
Avenue, Brooklyn. He was released and allowed to return to the
U. S. S. R. in October 1941. _ . ^ ^
Mr. Praeger. Mr. Chairman, may I say something at this point?
I think that in view of the fact that this gentleman that Mr. Stripling
has identified in the record has no connection with Mr. Koral that
the inference is unfair that the person so identified has any connec-
tion with Mr. Koral.
Mr. Stripling. Well, Mr. Counsel, I asked him if he knew this in-
dividual and he declined to answer on the ground that it would tend
to incriminate him.
Mr. Praeger. Well, he stood on his constitutional rights, which he
has a perfect right to do, and I think it is. an unfair way of presenting
the record on something.
Mr. MiTNDT. The Chair will say that there is nothing to prevent
the witness from saying that he does not know this individual and
thus it would not be necessary to answer that it would tend to degrade
and incriminate him.
Mr. Praeger. The only point that I make, Mr. Chairman, is that
there can be an unfair inference, because by reference there might be
some connection between this individual and Mr. Koral.
Mr. MuNDT. There can be no unfair inference if the witness de-
cides that he does not know somebody who has an acquaintanceship
which might be self-incriminating.
Mr. Praeger. Then, I take it, Mr. Chairman, that you are over-
ruling my objection on this particular point.
Mr. MuNDT. That is correct.
Mr. Praeger. I thank you.
Mr. Stripling. This individual that you knew only as Frank, how
did you first meet him, Mr. Koral ^
Mr. KoRAL. I decline to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. What did he tell you when he first contacted you?
Ml'. Koral. I decline to answer that question on the ground that it
might tend to degrade and incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did he ask you to become a courier for him in con-
nection with certain work that he was performing?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer that question on the ground that it
may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Praeger. May I consult with my client for a moment, Mr.
Chairman?
Mr. MuNDT. You may consult with him.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Koral, do you laiow Earl Browder?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer that question on the ground that it
might incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know or do you know Jacob N. Golos?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer that question on the ground that
it might incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Koral, would you kindly stand, please, and
turn around.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 707
]Miss Bentley, would you staud up. please?
(Mr. Koral and Miss Bentle3% respectively, comply.)
Mr. SxRirLiNG. Mr. Koral, this lady in black standing to your right
is Elizabeth Bentley. Have you ever seen Elizabeth T. Bentley?
Have you ever seen her before ?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer on the ground that it might in-
criminate me.
]Mr. Stripling. Do you know Elizabeth T. Bentley?
Mr. Koral. INIay I turn around?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Koral. I decline to aiiswer on the ground that it might incrimi-
nate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you contact any individuals in Washington,
D. C, in October 194:5, as a result of the instructions received from
an individual known to you as Frank?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer on the ground that it might in-
criminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you exchange packages at that time wath an
individvial known to you as Greg?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer on the ground that it might tend
to incriminate me.
]Mr. Stripling. Did you know^ an individual by the name of Greig
or Greg in Washington ?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer on the ground that it might in-
criminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever make a trip to Washington, D. C. ?
]Mr. Koral. I decline to answer on the ground
The Chairman. Just a minute. I think that is something a little
far afield. When the chief investigator asks you if you ever made a
trip to Washington, I do not see how that would incriminate you.
]NIr. Praeger. Mr. Chairman
The Chairman. Just a minute. I am asking the wntness. You
keep quiet a few seconds.
How does that incriminate you?
Mr. Koral. Mr. Thomas, I have been instructed by my counsel that
courts have ruled that what is considered incriminating is something
that the individual that is being questioned must answer.
The Chairman. But this is a very simple question : Did you ever
make a trip to Washington ? It could be : Did you ever make a trip
to Boston, or New^ York, or some other place? I do not see how it
would
Mr. Praeger. Mr. Chairman
The Chairman. No.
ISIr. Praeger. If I may
The CiTAiRMAN. I am talking to the witness. Now, you just keep
quiet for a few seconds, and then we will let you talk.
Mr. Praeger. The reason I attempted to interject myself at this
point
The Chairman. I said : You will please be quiet.
Nov,-, you go ahead, Mr. Witness. How does that incriminate you?
In what way would the trip to Washington incriminate you?
Mr. Koral. I am not a lawyer, Mr. Thomas, and I have placed my
legal case in the hands of an attorney ; I respect his judgment.
708 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The Chairmmst. Then, you refase to answer that question on the
ground that it will incriminate yon because you have been advised to
answer it that way ; is that it ?
Mr. Pkaeger. Mr. Chairman, if I may
The Chairman. No; just a minute.
Now, I will ask you the question : Have you ever made a trip to
Washington?
Mr. KoRAL. The same answer, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. That it will incriminate you if you answer it that
waj^ ?
Mr. KoRAL. It may incriminate me.
The Chairman. And that you answer it that way because you have
been advised by counsel to answer it that way ?
Mr. KoRAL. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Go ahead, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Strxpling. Have you ever made a trip to Niagara Falls. Mr.
Koral?
Mr. Praeger. Mr. Chairman
Mr. Stripling. I want him to answer the question.
Have you ever made a trip to Niagara Falls?
Mr. KoRAL. I decline to answer that question on the ground that it
might inci-iminate me.
Mr. Chairman, may I say something at this point?
The Chairman. Do you want to make a statement ?
Mr. KoRAL. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You have a written statement ?
Mr. Koral. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you have a written statement that you would
like to present?
Mr. KoRAL. No, sir.
The Chairman. Don't you think it would be better for the chief
investigator to continue the questioning, and then you can make your
statement?
Mr. Koral. All right.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever receive a package from an individual
by the name of Grig, G-r-i-g or G-r-e-g, in Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer on the ground that it might incrimi-
nate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you receive any money for transporting a pack-
age from Washington, D. C, to Brooklyn, N. Y. ?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer on the ground that it might incrimi-
nate me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Gerhart Eisler ?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer on the ground that it might incrimi-
nate me.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I am ready for the witness to make
a statement, so far as I am concerned.
The Chairman. Mr. Witness, would you like to make a statement at
this point?
Mr. Koral. No, sir.
The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I have here a picture which was
taken by the Acme Photo and which appeared in the Washington
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 709
Tiiiies-Heiald on Thursday. August 5. This picture was taken on
August 4, 1948, Avhen Nathan Gregory Silvermaster appeared before
tlie Committee on Un-American Activities.
The caption in this picture states : "Nathan Gregory Silvermaster,
former otlicial of the Board of Economic Warfare, is shown as he
testified before the House Un-American Activities Committee yester-
day."
I show you this picture, Mr. Koral, and ask you if you have ever
seen tliis individual [showing Mr. Koral a photograph] ?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer on the ground that it might incrimi-
nate me.
Mr. Striplixg. That is all that I have of the witness. Those are all
of the questions that I have of the witness, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. :Mr. Mundt ?
Mr. Mundt. No questions.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell?
]Mr. McDowell. No questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Hebert?
Mr. Hebert. ]\Ir. Koral, have you ever given a statement in connec-
tion with your activities in the so-called espionage ring to the Gov-
ernment ?
Mr. Praeger, ]\Ir. Chairman, may I again object to that question
at this point ? Anything that has gone on
Tlie Chairman. No, no, no.
Mr. Praeger. Just a moment, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. It is up to the witness to object, not counsel, and
Avill counsel please be quiet while members of the committee are in-
terrogating this witness.
Proceed, Mr. Hebert.
Mr. Hebert. Mv. Koral, have you ever given a statement to the
Government in connection with j^our activitie's in what is known as
the espionage ring in cooperation with tlie Kussian Government?
Mr. Koral. I testified before the grand jury.
Mr. Hebert. Wait now. I do not want you — you cannot tell what
you said before the grand jury. I am not asking you to say that. I
am not identifying any individual. I said "the Government," and
I do not want you to violate the rules of the grand jury, as I under-
stand them.
I asked you : Have vou ever given a statement to the Government
in connection with your activities of an espionage ring as related
to the Soviet or the Russian Government?
Mr. Praeger. Mr. Hebert, I wish you would clarify your question.
>Vnien you say "Government," I frankly could not answer that ques-
tion, because I do not know what branch of the Government you are
referring to.
The Chairman. Now, Mr. Counsel, I just told you before that you
will please be quiet. This witness can ask that the question be clari-
fied, not you.
Mr. Praeger. May I ask, Mr. Chairman, if I may consult with my
client ?
The Chairman. I just want you to be quiet.
Mr. Praeger.- I have a request to make of the Chair.
710 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. Well, if you have a request to make of the Chair,
you just wait a little while. There is a question which has been asked
of this witness.
Mr. Hebert. I may say, Mr. Chairman, that I appreciate counsePs
attempt to protect his client, but at the same time, the Chair is in
this instance, and the committee's attitude at all times, has been that
counsel could confer with his witness and not answer for his witness.
Mr. Praeger. I appreciate that.
Mr. Hebert. Because there is no attempt here at any time to cut
off the witnesses from having the advice of counsel. That is clearly
understood, and the chairman has so ruled in each instance in order
to keep it within the lines of our accepted manner of testimony.
Now, Mr. Koral, I again ask you : Did you ever make a statement
to the Government in connection with your activities as a member
of an espionage ring as related to the Soviet or Russian Government?
Mr. K(»RAL. I decline to answer that question on the ground that it
might incriminate me.
Mr. Hebert. I now ask you, Mr. Koral, if at any time, at any time,
you ever signed any statement confessing to your part in the espionage
ring as related to tlie Soviet Government ?
Mr. Koral. I decline to answer that question on the ground that
it might incriminate me.
Mr. Hebert. You do not deny, it, then, that you may have signed
such a statement, to anybody. Government or otherwise — any state-
ment ?
Mr. Koral. Is that a question, Mr. Hebert?
Mr. Hebert. I asked you that as a question.
Mr. Koral. The same answer, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Hebert. You do not deny it, then, on the ground that it might
incriminate you ?
Mr. Koral. I do deny on the ground that it might incriminate me.
Mr. Hebert. Then you deny that you ever signed such a state-
ment ?
Mr. Koral. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that it
might incriminate me.
Mr. Hebert. Then you do not deny it ?
Mr. Koral. I neither deny — I neither deny or affirm ; I simply am
iiot answering the question.
Mr. Hebert. You neither deny nor affirm that you have signed a
confession about your activities on the ground that it might tend to
incriminate you ?
Mr. Koral. I am not a lawyer, and I cannot unravel the intricacy of
that question.
Mr. Hebert. I am not a lawyer, either; and I am not trying to
involve you. I am trying to ask you a simple question, because if I
told you, Mr. Koral, that I know you signed a confession, what would
you say to that ?
Mr. Koral. I would not say anything about that.
Mr. Hebert. You would keep quiet on that. You would not deny
it or affirm it. Then, I say to you, Mr. Koral, that I have every reason
to know that you did sign a confession. Do you still want to stand
on your constitutional rights and not have this opportunity of denying
it and proving that you did not sign such a confession ?
Mr. Koral. I will stand on my 'constitutional rights.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 711
Mr. Hebert. Then, I will leave it this way, that I know from
good authority that you did sign a confession.
That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The CiiAiKMAN. Mr. Nixon, do you have any questions?
Mr. Stripling^
]Mr. Stripling. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. You are excused.
Mr. Strh'ling. Not excused. We want him to remain under subpena.
We will call liim when he is needed. We will notify him and give
him o days' notice.
The Chairman. You are under subpena, and we will call j^ou when
we want you again.
j\Ir. KoRAE. Thank you.
The Chairman. The next witness.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Kussell.
The Chairman. Mr. Russell, wnll j^ou be sworn ?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony 3'ou are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God ?
Mr. Russell. I do.
TESTIMONY OF LOUIS J. RUSSELL
Mr. Stripling. My. Russell, you are an investigator for the Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities?
Mr. Russell. I am.
Mr. Stripling. How long have you been a member of the investi-
gative staff of the Committee on Un-American Activities?
Mr. Russell. Since May 1945.
Mr. Stripling Were you ever connected with the Federal Bureau of
Investigation?
Mr. Russell. I was for a period of 10 years.
Mr. Stripling. As a special agent ?
Mr. Russell. I was.
Mr. Stripling. Have you, as an investigator for this committee,
along with other investigators attached to the committee, conducted
an investigation regarding certain persons connected with an espionage
ring operating between New York Cit}^ and Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Russell. I have.
Mr. Stripling. During the course of the investigation, did you and
other investigators for the committee receive any information regard-
ing Alexander Koral, and his participation in espionage activities?
Mr. Russell. Yes ; we did.
Mr. Stripling. Would you give the committee a summary, deleting
certain confidential information, regarding Alexander Koral, and his
connection with an individual by the name of Frank, and an individual
by the name of Greg, who will be subsequently identified.
Mr. Russell. Yes ; I will. Alexander Koral was born in London,
England, on April 18, 1897, and came to the United States during
the year 1900. Koral resides at 290 Empire Boulevard, Brooklyn,
N. Y. He is employed by the New York City Board of Education in
Brooklyn, N. Y.
During the year 1939, Koral was approached by a man named
"Frank,'' who told him that mutual friends had advised him that he,
712 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Koral, was in need of funds. Koral at the time of this contact had a
son who was ill, and had a large amount of hospital and medical bills.
Koral subsequently became a courier for Frank and made 12 contacts
for him. These contacts were made with persons known to Koral as
Al, George, or Henrj^, at several different places. The contacts were
made at a seafood restaurant located south of Eighty-sixth Street and
Lexington Avenue, One Hundred and Thirty-fifth Street and Third
Avenue, and at Broadway and Ninety-sixth Street.
Mr. Stripling. These are all in New York City ?
Mr. Russell. Yes, sir. When these contacts were made, Koral
would carry a magazine, such as Time or Life, and the persons con-
tacted by Koral would also carry a copy of the same magazines. The
persons contacted by Koral at the request of the person known by
Koral as Frank would, during the contact, turn over to Koral certain
unidentified material, in a box or a package, similar to a candy box.
Koral would then take the package home, and Frank would come
by and pick it up.
In October 1945 Koral was aproached by Frank, who told him that
he wanted him to go Washington, D. C, and meet a man whom he
called Grig. The contact was to be made in front of a movie house.
Koral made the trip to Washington and contacted Greg and Greg's
wife in front of a movie house, in accordance with Frank's instructions.
Koral turned a package over to Greg during his contact and received
one from him in return. Koral carried the package back to New York
City and turned it over to Frank.
Koral, when this contact was made with Greg, used the name "Al."
The man and woman whom Koral contacted in Washington in October
1945 were Nathan Gregory Silvermaster and his wife, Helen.
In December 1945, upon instructions, Koral again returned to Wash-
ington and met Greg in accordance with a prearranged plan. Upon
the occasion of this meeting Koral advised Greg that there would be
no more visits upon instructions receiA^ed from Frank.
Upon the occasion of this meeting Koral received a package from
Greg and returned to his home at 290 Empire Boulevard, Brooklyn,
N. Y.
Mr. Stripling. Did Frank subsequently pick up the package?
Mr. EussELL. Yes ; 2 days
Mr. Stripling. How many clays later ?
Mr. Russell. Two days later.
Mr. Stripling. Was this the last contact that he had with Frank?
Mr. Russell. That is the last known contact.
Mr. Stripling. Did he receive any funds from Frank?
Mr. Russell. Koral was paid by Frank upon six different occasions
for the work which he had performed as a courier for Frank.
Mr. Stripling. How did he receive this money ?
Mr. Russell. It was usually paid in $10 bills.
Mr. Stripling. How much money did he receive?
Mr. Russell. The exact amount is unknown to me.
Mr. Stripling. Approximately how much did he receive or do you
know?
Mr. Russell. I do not know the exact amount or the approximate
amount.
Mr. Stripling. Go ahead, Mr. Russell.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 713
Mr. Russell. The additional information is that Koral thought the
material which he delivered and collected for Frank contained infor-
mation regarding Government contracts.
Mr. Stripling. Now, Mr. Chairman, there is certain other infor-
mation which we have regarding Mr. Koral, which we desire to keep
in confidence at this time, because of certain future witnesses wdio are
to appear.
The Chairmax. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Stripling. Are there any questions of Mr. Russell ?
The Chairman. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. No questions.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDowell. No questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Mundt. No questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Hebert.
Mr. Hebert. No questions.
The Chairman. I have no questions.
Mr. Stripling. The next witness, Mr. Chairman, will be Duncan
Lee.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling, would you come up here, please ?
(Discussion off the record.)
The Chairman. The Chair would like to announce that it will be
impossible to finish with Mr. Lee this afternoon, so we are going to
ask Mr. Lee to wait over until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock, and
the members will go into executive session down in their chambers on
the second floor.
We will meet at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. The meeting is
adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 3: 25 p. m., the committee adjourned, to reconvene
at 10 a. m. of the following day, Tuesday, August 10, 1948.)
HEAEINGS KECtAEDING COMMUNIST ESPIONArxE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOYEKNMENT
TUESDAY, AUGUST 10, 1948
United States House of REPRESENTATn^s,
Special Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. G.
The subcommittee met. pursuant to call, at 10 a. m., in the caucus
room. Old House Office Building, Hon. J. Parnell Thomas (chair-
man) presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives J. Parnell Thomas
(chairman), Karl E. Mundt, John McDowell, and F. Edward
Hebert.
Staff members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator;
Louis J. Russell, William A. Wheeler, investigators; Benjamin Man-
del, director of research; and A. S. Poore, editor, for the committee.
The Chairman. The meeting will come to order. The record will
show Mr. ]\IcDowell is present, Mr. Hebert is present, Mr. Thomas is
present. The subcommittee is sitting.
The chair wishes to announce that just as soon as our committee sub-
penas are served on Mikhail I. Samarin and his wife, the committee
will announce that the subpenas have been served. At the present time
the subpenas are out but the subpenas have not yet been served at this
minute.
Mr. Stripling, the first witness.
]Mr. Stripling. Duncan Lee.
The Chaieman. Mr. Lee, take the stand, please. Raise your right
hand.
]Mr. Lee, do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give
before this committee is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Lee. I do..
The Chairman. Sit down.
Mr. Stripling, your witness.
TESTIMONY OF DUNCAN CHAPLIN LEE
Mr. Lee. Mr. Chairman, I have a brief statement which I would like
to read to the committee.
Mr. Stripling. Just a moment. We will take that under consid-
eration.
Will you please state your full name, Mr. Lee?
Mr. Lee. Duncan Chaplin Lee.
Mr. Stripling. When and where were you born ?
715 •
716 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Lee. Nankiiio-, China, December 19, 1913.
Mr. Stripling. You are here before this committee in response to
a siibpena served upon you by Eobert Gaston ?
Mr. Lee. Tliat is correct.
Mr. Stripling. When did you come to the United States, Mr. Lee?
Mr. Lee, The firet time I came to the United States I was about 6
months old.. That would put it in the spring of 1914, I imagine.
Mr. Steipling. Can you give the committee a resume of your educa-
tional background ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir. I went to various elementary schools. I attended
the Woodbury Forest School in Virginia, then went to Yale for 4
years where I took a B. A. degree in 1935. I was then selected a
Rhodes scholar to Oxford from Virginia and studied there for 3
years, taking both the B. A. degree in jurisprudence and a bachelor
of civil law degree. I spent 1 year doing graduate work at the Yale
Law School. I think that pretty well winds it up.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever employed in the Federal Govern-
ment?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir. I was employed in the Federal Government for
1 month in the Office of Strategic Services as a civilian and I was in
the Army for nearly 4 years.
Mr. Stripling. When did you first enter the Office of Strategic
Services ?
Mr. Lee. Around the 1st of July 1942.
Mr. Stripling. When did you enter the Army ?
Mr. Lee. Around the 1st of August of the same year.
Mr. Stripling. Did you receive a commission when you entered
the Army ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr, Stripling, What was the commission ?
Mr. Lee. As a first lieutenant.
Mr. Stripling. When you were discharged what was your com-
mission ?
Mr. Lee. Lieutenant colonel.
Mr. Stripling. Did you spend all of your Army career in the OSS,
attached to OSS ?
Mr, Lee, That is correct, sir,
Mr. Stripling. Since you left the Army, where have you been em-
ployed ?
Mr. Lee. I have been practicing as a lawyer independently in Wash-
ington since I left the Army,
Mr. Stripling. What is your business address in Washington?
Mr. Lee. 1016 Investment Building. That is my present address,
I have had several.
Mr. Stripling. Are you married, Mr. Lee?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir,
Mr. Stripling. Any children?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir; four,
Mr, Stripling, What is your wife's name ?
Mr. Lee. Isabelle Scott Lee. Her maiden name was Gibb.
Mr. SiTJiPLiNG. Are you acquainted with a person named Mary
Price?
Mr. Lee, I am, sir.
Mr. Stripling. When did you first meet Mary Price ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 717
Mr. Lee. I tliink probably in 1940—1939 or 1910.
Mr. Stripling. Are yon acquainted with a person by the name of
Elizabeth T. Bentley?
Mr. Lee. I am acquainted with a person who I now understand is
Miss Elizabeth T. Bentley; yes.
Mr. Stripling. Can you identify Miss Bentley? Miss Bentley, will
you please stand?
Mr. Lee. Yes; I identify her.
Mr. Stripling. Is that Elizabeth T. Bentley ?
Mr. Lee. She wasn't known as that to me, but I understand that is
her name.
Mr. Stripling. What did you know her as? By what name?
Mr. Lee. I knew her by the name of Helen Grant.
Mr. Stripling. Helen Grant?
]Mr. Lee. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. When did you first meet Helen Grant?
Mr. Lee. I think it was in October 1943, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you meet her ?
Mr. Lee. At the home of Miss Mary Price.
IMr. Stripling. Where was Mary Price residing at that time?
Mr. Lee. She had an apartment on H or I Street near Twenty-first —
near Twentieth or Twenty-first.
Mr. Stripling. I show you a photograph of 2038 I Street and ask
you if this was where Mary Price resided ?
Mr. Lee. I believe it was.
Mr. Stripling. On the third floor at 2038 I Street ?
Mr. Lee. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Stripling. You met Mary Price at this point ?
]Mr. Lee. No ; I met Mary Price in New York.
Mr. Stripling. Did you meet Miss Elizabeth Bentley at this apart-
ment ?
Mr. Lee. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Stripling. How many times did you meet Elizabeth T. Bent-
ley?
Mr. Li.E. I think my wife and I knew Miss Bentley over a period of
about a year and a quarter. Exactly how many times we saw her
during that time I am not certain. I would say perhaps 15 times.
Mr. Stripling. How well did you know Mary Price ?
Mr. Lee. She was a good friend of both my wife and me.
Mr. Stripling. Where was she employed at the time ?
Mr. Lee. At the time I first met her, which, as I say, was in 1940,
I believe, in New York, I think she was employed as secretary to Mr.
Walter Lippmann.
Mr. Stripling. Was Miss Price a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Lee. I wouldn't know, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Are you a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr, Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Political Association?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
718 ' COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever been a member of tlie Young Com-
munist League ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. STRipr:iNG. Did you ever pay any dues to Elizabeth T. Bentley ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever pay any dues t,o Helen Grant ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Would you relate to the committee the various ad-
dresses that you lived at in Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Lee. As well as I can, sir. I lived at only two addresses, that
is, where I actually had a house or had an establishment, I rented a
room when I first came to Washington near Eighteenth and Colum-
bia Road for a few months until I found an apartment. That apart-
ment was on Dent Place, the exact number I am not sure of. It was
about half a block to the west of Thirtieth Street.
Mr. Stripling. Can you tell me at which one of these places j^ou
resided ?
Mr. Lee. 3014 Dent Place. The two look exactly alike.
Mr. Stripling. There are two apartment houses which are iden-
tical, Mr, Chairman. One is at 3014 Dent Place, and the other is
3020 Dent Place, One is the Irving, and the other is the Holmes.
Now, I will ask you, Mr. Lee, which of these apartment houses did
you live in ?
Mr. Lee. The Irving, the one nearest Thirtieth Street.
Mr. Stripling. 3014 Dent Place NW. Did you live in apartment
18?
Mr. Lee. I believe that is right, sir.
Mr. Stripling. At 3020 Dent Place NW. ?
Mr. Lee, 3014.
Mr. Stripling, Yes, Four flights up?
Mr, Lee, That is right,
Mr, Stripling. You enter, turn to your right, go up four flights
of stairs, turn to your left, and it is the last apartment ; is that correct?
Mr. Lee, That is right,
Mr, Stripling, Consisting of a living room, medium-sized dining
room, kitchen, bedroom, and bath ; is that cori-ect ?
Mr, Lee. There were two bedrooms, I believe.
Mr. Stripling. Two bedrooms ?
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet Helen Grant or Elizabeth T.
Bentley at that apartment?
Mr, Lee, She came to visit us there ; yes.
Mr. Stripling. How many times?
Mr. Lee. At the apartment I wouldn't be prepared to say, I think
seven or eight times.
Mr, Stripling, Where else did you live in Washington?
Mr. Lee. 1522 Thirty-first Street NW,
Mr, Stripling, Is this a photograph of the residence in which j'ou
resided ?
Mr. Lee. That is, sir,
Mr, Stripling. Did Elizabeth T. Bentley or Helen Grant ever
meet you at 1522 Thirty-first Street?
Mr, Lee, I believe she did ; yes, sir.
Mr, Stripling. How many times?
Mr, Lee, I would say only a couple of times.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 719
]\Ir. Stripling. I band you a photograph and ask you if you can
identify this individuaL
Mr. Lee. I am not certain, Mr. Stripling, but I think I dp.
Mr. Stripling. Who is this individual?
Mr. Lee. He was the friend of ISIiss Bentley, who I met on two
occasions very casually in her company.
Mr. Stripling. What was his name when you met him?
Mr. Lee. His name was John something or other. His last name
escapes me. I understand, though, it was Golos,
Mr, Stripling. Jacob N. Golos?
Mr. Lee. That is what I understand.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you meet him?
Mr. Lee. I met him, I believe, first at a restaurant on Fifteenth
Street, known as the 823 Restaurant.
Mr. Stripling. I show you a picture of the 823 Restaurant. Is that
the place you met Golos?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir ; that is my recollection.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Lee, I show you a picture of Georgetown Phar-
macy at Wisconsin Avenue and O Street Northwest, and ask you if
you ever met Elizabeth T. Bentley or Helen Grant at this pharmacy?
Mr. Lee. I can't say positively, sir. I believe I did.
Mr, Stripling. You believe you did ?
Mr. Lee. Yes. I met her at one or two pharmacies in Georgetown.
]\Ir. Stripling. I show you a picture of the Triangle Luncheonette
at Wisconsin Avenue at Thirty-fourth Street Northwest, and ask jou
if 3^ou ever met Elizabeth T. Bentley or Helen Grant at this place?
Mr. Lee. I believe so ; yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. How many times?
Mr. Lee. Once, as far as I know.
Mr. Stripling. I show you a picture of the Dumbarton Theatre on
Wisconsin Avenue at O Street and ask you if you ever attended this
theater with Elizabeth T. Bentley or Helen Grant?
Mr. Lee. Not to my recollection.
Mr. Stripling. You don't recall attending that?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. I show you a picture of Martin's Restaurant at Wis-
consin Avenue and N Street NW., and ask you if you ever met Eliza-
beth T. Bentley at this restaurant ?
Mr. Lee. I believe so on one occasion.
Mr. Stripling. Will you repeat for the committee the first time you
met Miss Elizabeth T. Bentley?
Mr. Lee. I said, Mr. Stripling, to the best of my recollection I first
met Miss Bentley at the apartment of Miss Price sometime in October
1943.
Mr. Stripling. Did she tell you what she was doing when you first
met her ?
Mr. Lee. At some time in our early acquaintance, probably then, I
was given to understand by Miss Bentley that she was employed in
an executive capacity in some business in New York. I believe she
said the leather business. It was a selling business, as near as I can
recall.
Mr. Stripling. When you met Jacob N. Golos, what were you told
as to who he was and what he w' as in Washington ?
720 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Lee. Mr. Stripling, may I go into a word of background in.
reply to that ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Lee. When I met IMiss Bentley at Miss Price's, we found her,
as others have, attractive, well informed, a well-educated woman. We
found her attractive and she seemed to find us attractive and we had
a pleasant chat. She said she knew very few people in Washington
and would like to know us better and would like to look us up when
she next came to town.
She did so some weeks later. I think perhaps the second time she
called us up she said she had a friend with her and would like to
have us come down and meet her for drinks at this 823 Restaurant.
It is my recollection that at that time we first met this man. He
doesn't make a very strong impression on me. He was quite obvious-
ly ill. I am reasonably certain Miss Bentley described him as a
refugee writer.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling, I would like to interrupt a second.
The record will show that Mr. Mundt is present.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Lee, will you explain to the committee youi
duties in the OSS ?
Mr. Lee. My duties fell into two phases, Mr. Stripling. When
I first went to the OSS', I went partly as legal adviser — assistant gen-
eral counsel, I think, was the actual title — and partly as a member of
the so-called secretariat. That involved partly administrative work
and partly legal work.
By legal work I mean drawing contracts, negotiating leases, seeing
that the way we spent our money was in line with the way the Gen-
eral Accounting Office wanted it and that sort of thing.
Mr. Stripling. Who brought you into OSS ?
Mr. Lee. General Donovan.
Mr. Stripling. Had you known General Donovan before you en-
tered OSS?
Mr. Lee. Yes ; I was employed in his law firm for 3 years.
Mr. Stripling. Did General Donovan and the OSS ever send you
on a mission to China ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir ; on two occasions.
Mr. Stripling. What were the dates of those two missions?
Mr. Lee. The first was a 3-month period beginning about the 1st of
July 1943 and going to the end of September. On that occasion I
didn't get to China.
The second was in 1945 when I went out with General Donovan,
about the middle of July, and got back in the first week of October.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever tell Miss Bentley anything that you
learned in a confidential capacity while you were in OSS ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. You never discussed it with her ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Why did you meet Miss Bentley at the drug stores
on Wisconsin Avenue?
Mr. Lee. I will be glad to tell you, sir, but again I would like to
give this background.
As I say, wlien my wife and I both met Miss Bentley, we found
her an extremely attractive person. I think that maybe was partly
to
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 721
due to the fact that she seemed to find us even more so. We were glad
to see more of lier and were glad when she called ns up.
A^'e saw her, as I say, from time to time sporadically over a course
of maybe 15 months. For perhaps 10 months we continued to enjoy
Miss 13entley's company and it was only over a period of time that we
came to revise our opinion of her.
But after knowing her a good deal better than we did at first we
came to a quite contrary opinion of ]Miss Bentley. We came to the
conclusion that she was a very lonely and neurotic woman, that she
was a frustrated wom.an, that her liking and apparent ardent liking
for us Avas unnaturally intense. AVe began to feel she was an emo
tional weight around our necks and that really there was nothing in
the acquaintance that justified the intense way she did follow us up.
There was one other factor which I will also mention.
]Mr. Stku'lixg. Just a moment. Why did you meet her in the drug
stores on Wisconsin Avenue?
Mr. Lee. I-am coming to that, Mr. Stripling..
]\lr. Stripling. All right.
Mr. Lee. One of the factors I would like to mention is when we
first met Miss Bentley she posed as a person who was a moderate
liberal, and that was one of the things we liked about her. As we got
to know her better her views l)ecanie increasingly left wing and in-
temperate and extreme. Frankly, I felt that it was a relationship
which for that reason might ju'ove embarrassing in my position. I
didn't want })eople to say that a friend of mine was talking in quite
as extreme a way as Miss Bentley was.
Xow, sir, to answer your question specifically, in October 1944 or
thereabouts my wife and I decided that this acquaintanca had to be
ended primarily because Miss Bentley had become a personal nuisance
to us, but also because of other reasons.
One evening when she called on us I put it to her quite bluntly that
we thought we should not see her any more. I decided to put it on
the grounds that her views and her expressed views were apparently
a good deal more extreme than we had originally thought.
Now, generally speaking, Mr. Stripling, I don't inquire too closely
into the political views of my friends and I consider it their business,
and as I say, in my position it seemed to be a situation that could be
c|uite embarrassing, and that is the way I put it to Miss Bentley.
Mv. Stkiplin(;. When was that ?
Mr. Lee. This was about October of 1943, 1 think,
Mr. Stripling. Where was it?
Mr. Lee. 1944— excuse me, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Where was it ?
Mr. Lee. It would have been at our house.
Mr. Stripling. I still want to know why you met her at the drug
stores.
Mr. Lee. Mr. Strijiling, I am coming to that, sir.
When we told Miss Bentley this her reaction was quite violent. She
cried, she protested that we meant a great deal to her. She said she
was intensely fond of us and she had to go on seeing us and she did
carry on, if I may put it that way, for about a half hour. Finally, she
suggested that, all right, if we felt it was unwise for her to continue
8040.8—48 15
722 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
visiting us at our home, would we continue to meet her occasionally
( lutside at some public place ? In order to get her out of the house, Mr.
Stripling, we agreed to do it.
Now, after that I think we met Miss Bentlej', at the most, three
times. I know that on one occasion my wife and I had dinner with
her at Martin's Restaurant, and I believe on two occasions after that
Avhen Miss Bentley called, she called from a neighboring drug store,
and on both those occasions either we couldn't get a sitter or my wife
didn't want to go out and simply told me to go out and see her and
get rid of her as quickly as possible, which I tried to do.
Mr. Stkiplixg. When 3'ou met her in the drug stores, did you walk
up to her and greet her?
Mr. Lee. I suppose so, sir. This was a long time ago and I can't
recall the exact circumstances of how I met her.
Mr. Stripling. How many times did you meet her in the drug
stores ?
Mr. Lee. As far as I can recall, only twice.
Mr. Stripling. You are speaking of the Triangle Luncheonette?
Mr. Lee. I am pretty clear that we had coca colas once at the Tri-
angle Luncheonette,
Mr. Stripling. How many times did you meet her at the George-
town Pharmacy?
Mr. Lee. Only once, so far as I know.
Mr. Stripling. How many times did Miss Bentley come to your
liome ?
Mr. Lee. I can't recall that precisely, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. When you lived on Dent Place, how many times did
she come to your apartment?
Mr. Lee. I think I have already said about six or seven times. I
can't be exact on that.
Mr. Stripling. When she first came to your apartment did you ask
your wife to leave the room?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Ml-. Stripling. How many times did she come to your home?
Mr. Lee. Two or three times, to the best of my recollection. As
J say, 1 cannot recall back that far and tell you exactly.
Mr. Stripling. You never gave Miss Bentley any Comnmnist Party
dues?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever give her any contributions?
Mr. Lee. No, sir; I did not.
• Mr. Stripling. Did you ever give her any money ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever give her any information verbally or
in written form?
Mr. Lee. No, Mr. Stripling; I did not.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have a statement?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir; t do.
The Chairman. May we see the copy of the statement, please?
Mr. Lee. I have given some copies out.
The Chairman. Is that the same as the copy we saw yesterday?
Mr. Lee. I believe so, sir.
The Chairman. That is all right, you may proceed.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 723
Mr. Lee. jNlr. Chairman, Miss Elizabeth Bentlej' in her recent tes-
timony before the House Un-American Affairs Committee has ac-
cused me of being a Comnumist and of supplying her with secret
information concerning the OSS.
I want to say categorically that I am not and have never been a
Communist and that I have never divulged classified information to
any unauthorized person. I had been an assistant in the legal offices
of (leneral Donovan before the war ; I had come to the OSS with him
as his assistant; and I was therefore particularly aware of a require-
ment of personal loyalty to him in such matters along with my loyalty
to the service of the United States.
During the war my wife and I met Miss Bentley socially at the
home of a friend. We met a great many people at this time. There-
after we saw ]Miss Bentley off and on for a little over a year. Our
acquaintance was entirely a social one.
I made it a rule during my service with OSS never to discuss any-
thing tliat had not previously appeared in the newspapers, and then
oidy to the extent made public. I certaiidy kept strictly to this rule
in any talks I ever had with Miss Bentley.
I Avas in the Army and in the OSS for nearly 4 years and during
that time worked day and night, both in Washington and overseas,
to further cur war effort. I am sure that (xeneral Donovan and the
other officers under whom I served will confirm the fact that my war
record is one of which I can feel justly proud. While in the Army
I rose from the rank of first lieutenant to lieutenant colonel. I have
received sevei'al official commendations. I know that I have served
my country with complete loyalty and to the best of my ability and it
is a profound shock to find my name and war recoixl attacked by the
irresponsible charges of this woman.
It is liard for me to believe that Miss Bentley 's statements are those
of a rational person. In trying to recall my acquaintance with Miss
Bentley I have been puzzled that I do not remember that she ever tried
to get any information out of me. In view of that fact I am tempted
to believe that Miss Bentley used her social relationship with me merely
to help her misrepresent to her employers for her own personal
l)uild-up that she had access through me to someone of the importance
of General Donovan.
Thank you, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Going back to this meeting you had with Golos,
Avhen did you say you first met Mr. Golos?
Mr. Lee. My impression is that it was in the fall of 194:3, Avithin
])erhaps 6 or 8 Aveeks after I met Miss Bentley.
]Mr. Striplixg. What Avas his name Avhen you met him ?
Mr. Lee. I think it was John something or other. The last name
I no longer recall.
Mr. Stripling. When did you meet him the next time ?
Mr. Lee. Some montlis later in XeAv York.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you meet him in Xcav York?
Mr. Lee. I met him at a restaurant. I didn't know I was going
to meet him. I called Miss Bentley up. This was at a time Avhen
Ave Avere on very friendly terms Avith Miss Bentley. I gaA'e her a ring,
as she had asked me to do Avhen I came to Xew York, and slie susg-ested
•fefc^
724 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
tlifit we have dinner together. When I fjot to the restaurant this
man was there.
Mr. Stripling. Were yon introduced to him at that time again?
Mr. Lee. It was assumed that I knew him ah-eady. It was only a
few months before. I think she ma}^ have said, "You will remember
John," whatever his name was.
Mr. Stripling. Were you in uniform at the time?
Mr. Lee. Certainly, sir; I was always in uniform.
Mr. Stripling. What rank did you have at the time?
Mr. Lee. Either captain or maior, probably major.
Mr. Stripling. AVasn't the OSS a so-called "hush-hush" organiza-
tion?
Mr, Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Conducting highly confidential and secret work in
the war effort ?
Mr. Lee. It certainly was; yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. You were closely associated with the director of
OSS, General Donovan; is that correct?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you make it a habit of going around and meet-
ing people and having dinner with people when you didn't know who
they were ?
Mr. Lee. I did know v,ho they were — at least I thought I knew who
they were.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know that Jacob N. Golos was a Soviet
agent ?
Mr. Lee. I did not ; no, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you make an investigation to determine who
he was ?
Mr. Lee. Mr. Stripling, I don't usually make investigations to de-
termine who every casual social acquaintance might be.
Mr. Stripling. But when you were a high official of the OSS, I
think it would be advisable.
Mr. Lee. Well, sir, I will take your advice under advisement.
Mr. Stripling. Did you make any investigation to determine who
Elizabeth T. Bentley was?
Mr. Lee. Not particularly. I had no reason to.
Mr. Stripling. In other words, j^ou just associated wuth Mary Price,
Elizabeth T. Bentley, Jacob Golos, meeting strange people in drug
stores, and it didn't make any difference.
Mr. Lee. Mr. Stiipling, I have explained why I met Miss Bentley
at drug stores. It was an effort to break an acquaintance as painlessly
as possible.
Now, sir, as far as inquiring as to who Miss Bentley was — you met
]Miss Bentley, you know she appears to be a very cultured, well-edu-
cated, high-type person. Without any evidence to the contrary, I
don't think there was any reason for me to make any investigation
of her.
Furthermore, as I said — and I want to say this again — Miss Bentley
to my knowledge never asked me for any information and I certainly
never gave her any.
Mr. Stripling. I will ask the witness to step aside at this time, Mr.
Chairman. He will be brought back to the stand.
The Chairman. All right. Step aside for just a few moments.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 725
Mr. Stripling. JNIr. Lee, please sit here close where you can hear the
testimony.
]Miss Bentley, will yon take the stand, please.
The Chairman. IVIiss Bentley, do you solemnly swear the testi-
mony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Miss Bentley. I do.
The Chairman. Sit down.
TESTIMONY OF ELIZABETH T. BENTLEY
Mr. Stripling. Miss Bentley, are you acquainted with the witness
who just left the witness stand?
Miss Bentley. Yes, I am.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever seen him before ?
Miss Bentley. Yes, I have.
Mr. Stripling. When did you first meet Mr. Duncan Lee?
Miss Bentley. To the best of my knowledge it was in either Janu-
ary or February of 1943.
Mr. Stripling. Relate to the committee the circumstances surround-
ing your first meeting of Mr. Lee.
JNliss Bentley. Do vou want me to go into the background of it,
Mr. Stripling?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Miss Bentley. When Mr. Lee secured his position with the OSS
in Washington back in June or July of 1942
The Chairman. May I interrupt a moment ?
Mr. Lee, 3^ou are hearing the witness ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir; I certainly am,
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Miss Bentley. At that time Miss Mary Price was working for Mr.
Golos and myself. She was employed by Mr. Walter Lippmann and
she was giving us information which she had taken from Mr. Lipp-
mann's files. We had told Miss Price that if she ever found any likel}^
prospect for giving information, she should let us know.
I think in May or June of 1942 she informed us that she knew Mr.
Lee through her sister. Miss Mildred Price, and Mr. Lee was being
transferred to Washington and that she felt he would be a good con-
tact for us. We told her then to have him disconnected from the
party in New York and when he came to Washington he should contact
Miss Price and keep in contact with her.
Miss Price continued to contact him until she was ill with virus
pneumonia in about December 1942, at which time she came to New
York and was ill, I think, 2 or 3- months. Since she couldn't contact
Mr. Lee, I went down to Washington on one of my trips, walked up
to JMr. Lee's apartmeiit on the fourtli floor of, I think it is 3014 Dent
Place, introduced iny;-e]f as Helen — he had previously been told who
I was by Miss Price — and that was the first time I saw him.
Mr. Stripling. Did you explain to him why you had contacted him ?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I explained that since Miss Price was incapaci-
tated and ill, I would take her place temporarily.
Mr. Stripling. Temporarily doing what?
Miss Bentley. Well, we had expected tliat Mary would recuperate
and come back to Washington and renew the contact with him.
726 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. When you first met Mr. Lee, was anyone present in
the room ?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; his wife was there.
Mr. Stripling. Did he ask her to leave the room ?
Miss Bentley. At first we had a rather social chat and then when
Ave came to discussing business he asked her to go to the kitchen.
Mr. Stripling. What business did you discuss ?
Miss Bentley. I discussed tlie fact that he had been giving infor-
mation from the OSS to Mary Price and I said that I would continue
witli tliat. I discussed with him what type of information would be
valuable, and so on.
Mr. Stripling. How long were you at his apartment?
Miss Bentley. The first time ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Miss Bentley. I should say I was there possibly an hour and a half
or 2 hours.
Mr. Stripling. When did you see him next ?
Miss Bentley. I continued to see him at the apartment on Dent
Place I should say possibly that spring before he went to China, I
should say four or five times. I can't be sure of that.
Mr. Stripling. Do you recall bringing Mr. Golos to Washington
or meeting Mr. Lee?
Miss Bentley. Yes, I remember distinctlj^ because it was about a
month or so before Mr. Golos died and he was quite an ill man at that
time. Mr. Golos died on November 25, 1943. That would make it
either the end of October or the early part of November of that year.
Mr. Stripling. What occurred at this meeting between Mr. Lee and
yourself and Mr. Golos?
Miss Bentley. I had told Mr. Golos about Mr. Lee, and he thought
that the ]n"ospect was very interesting. He wanted to meet him per-
sonally. Tlierefore, I had asked Mr. Lee wjiat would be a convenient
place for us to meet because I knew he knew so many people in Wash-
ington we would have to find a rather obscure place. He suggested
this German beer place at 823, Fifteenth Street, I think it is.
I remember it distinctly because it has a terrific flight of stairs going
down, and jNIr. Golos had a bad heart and I was worried whether he
could make the stairs going up and down.
At this meeting we sat and I think we drank beer, and Mr. Golos
introduced himself as a high functionary of the Communist Party,
explained that they were very much interested in the material Mr.
Lee was furnishing, and had a long chat with him on the type of in-
formation that was available and what he should look for.
Mr. Stripling. Was Mr. Lee in uniform at the time?
Miss Bentley. Yes, I recall that he was ; yes.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Lee referred to a second meeting with Mr.
Golos in New York. Do you recall that meeting?
Miss Bentley. I don't recall any such meeting in New York. That
was only about a month before Mr. Golos died, you see, when he met
him. Mr. (toIos died November 25 of that year.
Mr. Stripling. Did Mr. Lee ever call you in New York and arrange
a meeting and dinner at which Mr. Golos was present ?
Miss Bentley. I don't see how. he could because he didn't know my
telephone number.
Mr. Stripling. He never called you in New York?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 727
Miss Bentley, No, unless of course he was given it subsequently
by someone else, but I never gave it to him.
Mr. SxRirLixG. He never called you, as far as you know'^
Miss Bentley. Xo.
Mr. Stripling. As far as you know, he never met Mr. Golos and
yourself in a restaurant in New York?
Miss Bentley. Not that I recall : no.
Mr. Stripling. Did ]\Ir. Lee ever furnish you any information which
you in turn furnished to the Russian agents?
]Miss Bentley. Yes, he did.
Mr. Stripling. What type of information?
Miss Bentley. I would say it was various types of information that
was valuable to us. One type was checking on whether the OSS had
spotted any of our people who were then working for the OSS.
Mr. Stripling. What did he tell you about that ?
Miss Bentley. Originally in the fall of 1943 Miss Price had applied
to the OSS for a position there. She was turned down. They gave
her some routine excuse with no bad implications, but we asked Mr. Lee
to check and find out, if he could, the real reason. He told us, I think
2 or 3 months later, that he had checked through the files there and
found out that she had been turned down because of past Communist
affiliations and connections.
]Mr. Stripling. Did Mr. Lee ever discuss with you a meeting at
which a proposal was submitted that the United States exchange 12
OSS agents for 12 NKVD agents with the Soviet Union ?
Miss Bentley. I think that was the number. It might have been
10 or 11, but it was around that number.
Mr. Stripling. Will you tell the committee the information you
have ?
Miss Bentley. I believe it was in the spring of 1944 that I met him
one evening outside his house, I believe, in one of the drug stores. He
was very much upset because he had found out that General Donovan
was interested in making an exchange of NKVD agents with OSS men.
He said this had been brought up in a meeting of, I should say, the top
command of the country — the top man from the Navy — Admiral Leahy
was there, J. Edgar Hoover, of the Federal Bureau, was there, I think
a representative of Roosevelt, and all the top people. He described
that meeting in detail to me. He even went into such details as the
fact that Admiral Leahy was definitely against such an exchange.
Mr. Stripling. ]Mr. Chairman, I don't think any interest would be
served in relating to us what was said by the officials. I think the
committee should hear that in executive session.
The Chairman. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Mr, Stripling. I think there is no purpose to having it in the record.
What other information did Mr. Lee give you ? Did he ever discuss
China policy?
Miss Bentley. Yes; he did. I believe it was just before he went to
China in 1943 that he gave us the information that the OSS had
through, I believe, the Navy in China made a deal with Die Lee, who
was-; at tliat time head of the Chinese secret police, in which deal Mr.
Die Lee was to furnish information to the OSS and the OSS was to
provide arms and money to Die Lee.
As ]Mr. Lee told it to me, Mr. Die Lee was not keeping his part of
the bargain and he was getting arms and money and not giving the
728 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
information. It was my understanding that that was one of the rea-
sons that Mr. Lae was sent to China — to unscramble this thing.
Mr. Stripling. Did he ever tell j'oii anything about OSS operations
in the Balkans ?
Miss Bentley. Yes; he did.
Mr. Stripling. AVhat information did he relate to you regarding
that?
Miss Bentley. He had a number of pieces of information in regard
to Rumania. Bulgaria, and other Balkan countries. There were liberal
groups who were anxious not to have the Russians come in when
Germany was defeated, and these groups were carrying on secret
negotiations in many cases via Switzerland with the OSS. He told
me about those.
He told me about the OSS group that was stationed in Istanbul,
Turkey, as a jumping-oif point for operations in the Balkans.
Mr. Stripling. Did he ever tell you anything about Oak Ridge,
Tenn.?
Miss Bentley. Yes. Toward the end of the time I knew him, which
I would say would be November 19J:4, he told me that he had word that
something very secret was going on at that location. He did not know
what, but he said it must be something supersecret because it was
shrouded in such mystery and so heavily guarded.
The Chairman. What was that date again ?
Miss Bentley. I would say it was near the end of the time I knew
him. The last time I saw him was the end of December 1944. This
must have been October or November, I would say, along in there.
The Chairman. When he told 3'ou that about Oak Ridge, where was
that meeting?
Miss Bentley. That was one of our meetings where we met in the
drug store and walked around the neighborhood.
Mr. Stripling. Do you want to question Miss Bentley now? I
Avould like to call Mr. Lee back.
The Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
]\Ir. Mundt. You heard the testimony of Mr. Lee a feAv moments
ago?
Miss Bentley. Yes, I did.
Mr. MtTNDT. You recall his statement of your calling at his home
(iue night and he telling you that because of your Communist views
they were going to break off the acquaintanceship. Was that part
of his statement correct? Can you corroborate that part of his state-
nient ?
Miss Bentley. I am sorry, that didn't happen. That never
happened.
Mr. Mundt. That never happened?
Miss Bentley. No ; it never happened.
Mr. Mundt. You don't recall any stage of your acquaintanceship
with Mr. Lee where he made known to you that he may have suspected
you were a Commmiist ?
Miss Bentley. He knew all along I was a Communist. There was a
stage when he suspected I Avas a Soviet agent, if that is what you
mean,
Mr. Mundt. Up until then, though, he didn't feel that being a
Communist might in any way give you an association with the Soviet
Government?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 729
Miss Bextley. Up until about the spring of 1944 I couldn't state
definitely. I just don't know.
Mr. MuxDT. From the spring of 1944 on he knew you were both a
Communist and a Russian agent ?
Miss Bentley. I imagine so. because that was apropos of that pro-
posed transfer between NKVD and the OSS, and I remember he was
quite frightened because he said, ''If they come over here, they will
come up to my house, knock on the door, shake my hand, and say
'Comrade, well done.' '"
I remember that distinctly. Tliat, of course, gave me the impres-
sion tliat he did believe I was, and he got very nervous during that
period. It was impossible to see him sometimes.
Finally his wife arranged a meeting for the thi'ee of us toward the
end of that summer. I believe, 1944, and he asked me point blank
if this was going to Russia or whether it was going to the Communist
Party, and I said it was going to Earl Browder.
Mr. MuNDT. The information?
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. That is all.
The Chairman. Mr. ISIcDowell.
Mr. McDowell. AVas the name of Capt. George Lubetnitch ever
brought into the conversation ?
Miss Bextley. Who?
Mr. McDowell. George Lubetnitch.
]Miss Bentley. I am sorry, I didn't hear that.
Mr. McDowell. That is all.
The Chairman. Mr. Hebert.
Mr. Hehert. When did you first meet Mr. Lee ?
Miss Bentley. I would say January or February of 1943.
]Mr. Hebert. 1943, January ?
Miss Bentley. January or February ; yes.
Mr. Hebert. 1943?
]Miss Bex'tley. That is correct, after Miss Price had come up to
New York with virus pneumonia.
Mr. Hebert. When did you say he first became suspicious that you
were a Soviet agent?
Miss Bex^tley. I would place that in the spring of 1944. I mean,
obviously so. I don't know what he thought before that.
Mr. Hebert. But he gave no indication before that that he thought
you were a Soviet agent, until about 1944?
Miss Bentley. Yes : that is correct.
]\Ir. Hebert. Is Mr. Lee a Communist?
Miss Bentley. To the best of my knowledge ; yes.
Mr. Hebert. What does that knowledge entail ?
Miss Bex-^tley. I brought him Communist Party literature, I col-
lected his Communist Party dues. I was told he was a member in
New York and that he was made a member at large in charge of Mary
Price. I have never seen his party card, but I had every reason to
believe he was.
Mr. Hebert. Where did you collect his party dues from him?
Miss Bentley. Wherever I happened to meet him — in his apart-
ment or on the street sometimes, or at his house.
Mr. Hebert. Weren't these party dues collected periodically over
a certain period?
730 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Miss Bentley. They should have been, but in lots of cases they
let them ])ile up a bit and then collected them for that period.
]\Ii'. Hebert. AVho checked on whether it was the right amount or
not?
Miss Bentley. I am afraid to tell you that no one ever checked
on these things. It was Mr. Golos" responsibility to turn this money
in. I don't believe anyone ever checked on it. He simply took the
money down to headquarters and got receipts for it, but I don't be-
lieve anybody ever checked.
Mr. Hebert. Mary Price was the first one to tell you Mr. Lee was
a Communist and a member of the party ?
Miss Bentley. Mary Price was the first one ; yes,
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Stripling, has Mary Price been supenaed?
Mr. Stripling. No; she has not.
Mr. Hebert. I suggest that Mary Price be subpenaed.
The Chairman. I might say to Mr. Hebert that everyone whose
name has been mentioned will be subpenaed if they have not already
been subpenaed.
]\Ir. Hebert. Very good.
Now, Miss Bentley, did you ever meet Mr. Lee in Xew York?
' Miss Bentley. Yes; I did meet Mr. Lee in New York, I think I
met him in New York three or four times in all.
Mr. Hebert. What was that occasion? What year was that?
When?
Miss Bentley. Well, the last time I met him in New York was to-
ward the end of December 1944, or possibly the first few davs of Janu-
ary 1945.
Mr. Hf^BERT. '\^nien was the first time you met him in New York?
Miss Bentley. That I can't tell you offhand.
Mr. Hebert. Approximately?
Miss Bentley. I think toward the end of 1943, but I am not entirely
sure of that.
Mr. Hebert. Did you meet him in New York before you met him in
Washington ?
Miss Bentley. I met him in Washington first at his apartment. The
onl}^ reason for meeting him in New York was that we had the policy
of meeting all Washington people in New York if they came up.
Mr. Hebert. What led up to your meeting him in New York on sev-
eral occasions?
Miss Bentley. I don't quite understand your question,
Mr. Hebert. What led up to you meeting him in New York on
several occasions?
Miss Bentley. In common with the otliQr people, when Mr. Lee
came to New York on business or on vacation or passing through New
York, we made it the policy to take all our people out and entertain
them, take them to dinner, and so on.
Mr. Hebert. How did you know he was in New York ?
Miss Bentley. Because he would let me know ahead of time that
he was coming up to New York or he would send word through JNIary
Price, who moved up to New York in November of 1943.
Mr. Hebert. But he never telephoned you in New York?
Miss Bentley. No ; he did not. He did not know my number that
I know of.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 731
Mr. Hkhert. Tlierefore, any time j'Oii mot liim in Ne^v York it was
tlirough another party?
^liss Bentley. It was either through another party or prearranged
in Washington.
Mr. Hebert. And the place you would meet him would be desig-
nated ?
Miss Bfntlet. It varied according to where he was and which was
most convenient. I met him once at Longchamps on Fifth Avenue
and Twelfth Street, and once at Longchamps on Fifty-seventh Street.
Mr. Hebert. Is Longchamps a very secretive place in New York?
Miss Bentley. The policy was not to meet at a secret place. The
Ijolic}' is to pick as respectable a place as possible.
Mr. Hebert. You said a few minutes ago he suggested meeting at
a place where he wouldn't be seen with you.
• Miss Bentley. That isn't quite what I was trying to say.
]Mr. Hebert. What were you trying to say ?
]Miss Bentley. I was trj'ing to say that in general espionage agents
tried to be seen in respectable places provided those places are not a
jjlace where you would meet someone you knew.
Mr. Hebert. At Longchamps you wouldn't meet anybody you
knew?
Miss Bentley. I didn't know anyone in the neighborhood and I pre-
sume Mr. Lee didn't either.
Mr. Hebert. It is one of the largest restaurants in NeAV York,
isn't it ?
Miss Bentley. It certainh^ is, but I knew of no one who lived in that
neighborhood or who frequented it.
Mr. Hebert. Let us get back to the first time you met Mr. Lee. You
knocked on the door and said, "This is Helen'" ?
Miss Bentley. I knocked on the door, Mr. Lee opened it, and I
said, ''Good evening, Duncan, this is Helen. I think Mary Price has
told you about me." He said, "Yes,'' and asked me to come in.
Mr. Hebert. That was in 1943 ?
Miss Bentley. That was either in January or February of 1943 ;
yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. You met under those circumstances and in your opin-
ion Mr. Lee didn't think you were a Soviet agent when you were using
a code name ?
Miss Bentley. At that time I don't believe he did because it was
common practice among Communists to know people by pseudonyms
and first names.
Mr. Hebert. What would be j'our reason for meeting him if you
weren't an agent?
Miss Bentley. In common with lots of other Communists down
here. I think they actually believed the material was going to the
Conmumist Party. I can't figure their mental processes any better
than that.
]Mr. Hebert. Let's differentiate now between the Communist Party
and the Russian agent. Is there any difference in your mind?
Miss Bentley. There is no difference in my mind because I know
what the Communist Party stands for, but a good many people who
did join the Communist Party did make that distinction."^
Mr. Hebert. Why would they be passing secret information to the
Connnunist Party ?
732 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Miss Bentley. Because they believed it would be useful for the
Communist Party in Communist strategy.
Mr. Hebert. What would that strategy ultimately be?
Miss Bentley. That strategy ultimately would be the overthrow
of this Government, but I don't think they believed that.
Mr. Hebert. I can't quite follow you, Miss Bentley.
Miss Bentley. I think it is quite difficult, Mr. Hebert, for anyone
to follow the processes of the Communist mind unless you have at one
time been one and been under the influence.
Mr. Hebert. By that statement probably none of us would ever
r.nderstand the machinations of the Communist Party unless we had
been a member.
Miss Bentley. I rather doubt it because it is very hard to explain.
Mr. Hebert. Didn't it seem very strange to you that Mr. Lee didn't
think you were a Communist agent, a Russian agent, when you intro-
(]uced yourself to him as Helen, a code name, called him by the code
name of Duncan, and then discussed the information that would be
given to you? Mr. Lee impresses me at this time, the first time I have
seen him, as an intelligent man, his background is certainly intellectual.
What quirk of his intellect would indicate at that time that you
were just Helen, a nice "gal" to laiow ?
Miss Bentley. I don't know how I could have impressed him as
]i0t being a Communist. I still don't think at the beginning he knew
I was a Soviet agent.
Mr. Hebert. Then he was passing this information on to you just
for the purposes of the Communist Party ?
Miss Bentley. That was my understanding at first. Later on I
believe he did have a question in his mind, as I have explained.
Mr. He;bert. That was in 1944, you say ?
Miss Bentley. I believe it was the spring of 1944; yes.
. Mr. Hebert. For a year these contacts continued and still he never
tliought or he never indicated to you that he thought you were a Com-
]nunist agent ?
Miss Bentley. He did indicate he thought I was a Communist.
He did not indicate he thought I was a Soviet agent.
Mr. Hebert. In 1944?
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. Hebert. Now, Miss Bentley, you heard Mr. Lee describe a
scene in his home, a very emotional scene. Did that ever take place?
Miss Bentley. That scene never took place.
Mr. Hebert. That never did take place; nothing like that ever
happened?
Miss Bentley. No.
Mr. Hebert. So, we get down to it, either you or Mr. Lee is lying
today.
Miss Bentley. I guess that is the only conclusion you can draw.
Mr. Hebert. Both of you cannot be telling the truth.
Miss Bentley. It would seem so.
Mr. Hebert. That is all.
The Ckairman. Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. I would like to ask the witness regarding these meet-
ings in the drug store.
Miss Bentley. Yes.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 733
Mr. Stkipi>ix(;. Did you meet, as Mr. Lee said, you would go in and
Lave a Coca-Cola together?
Miss Bextley. No ; on the contrary, I would usually get there first
i^nd be drinking a Coca-Cola when Mr. Lee came in to buy cigarettes.
Mr. Stripling. Would he recognize you ?
Miss Bentley. No; he would look at me and walk out, and I would
follow him for about three or four blocks until he slowed down and
1 cauglit up witli him.
Mr. Stripling. But you never sat with him in the drug store and
had a Coca-Cola ?
Miss Bentley. I do not recall having done so. I may have in the
earlier days Avhen he was not quite so frightened, but I do not recall
doing so.
]\Ir. Stripling. Mr. Lee became so frightened — —
Miss Bentliy. Yes ; definitely, after that incident that I spoke of
lie became very frightened.
Mr. Stripling. I have no further questions at this time.
The Chairman. Does any member have any further questions ?
Mr. MuNDT. Not at this time.
The Chairman. Not at this time.
iSIr. Stripling. Mr. Lee.
TESTIMONY Or DUNCAN CHAPLIN LEE— Resumed
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Lee, j^ou have heard the testimony of Miss
Bentley.
Mr. Lee. I certainlj^ have, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Do 3'ou deny or affirm it?
Mr. Lee. I deny it; and in every respect in which it is contrary to
the testipnony I have previously given.
The Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Mundt. ]Mr. Lee. it would seem to me that if you were in tlie
OSS and being approached by a woman with Communist views
who had displayed an unusual intensity, you said, in trying to pursue
your W'ife and you, and cultivate your acquaintance and maintain
your friendship, tliat she had done that over a period of montiis,
and perhaps years, you had b?en alarmed and disturbed by her pro-
nounced Communist tendencies, so much so that you created — you
said that she created a very emotional scene in your home, accord-
ing to your testimony, And you were an officer of the OSS, certainly
if that part of your testimony is correct, you reported those facts
at that time to some one of your superior officers. To whom did you.
re])ort that ?
Mr. Lee. Excuse me, sir. I tried to make it clear in my testi-
mony, Mr. ]Mundt, that the major element which led my wife and
me to want to break our relationship with Miss Bentley was a purelv
personal one. She was becoming a personal nuisance to us. Now. I
thought her views were too advanced, as w^e got to know^ her better. l)Ut
that Avas a very minor element.
Mr. jNIundt. What do you mean by advanced views ?
Mr. Lee. Perhaps, that was not the best word. I mean too extreme,
too left wing, too communistic. I had no knowledge that she was
in fact a Communist, and she had done nothing to lead me to suppose
734 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
that she was a Russian or a Communist agent. As far as I know, and
to the best of my recollection, she never sought any information
from me.
Mr. MuNDT. But you do recall that she had made herself more or
less a personal nuisance by her persistency in trying to cultivate and
then retain the friendly association with your wife and you.
Mr. Lre. Yes, sir ; but we thought that was
Mr. MuNDT. And you do recall that you became disturbed about
the fact because her views were so proconnnunistic.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. IMuxDT. So, as a consequence of a lady whose views were pro-
comnuniistic, pressing herself upon you so frequently and so forcibly,
you sought t-o break the relationship.
Mr. Lee. Mr. Mundt, I tried to explain, we gave Miss Bentley the
reason that her views were so left wing as a reason tliat we wanted
to break off tlie relationship.
Mr. Mundt. But you testified before us that you had observed her
views to have become procommunistic.
Mr. Lee. But that was a very minor element and she had done
nothing to lead us to suppose so.
jSIr. Mundt. I am not saying that she had done anything. But you
testified a few moments ago that you and your wife had observed her
views becoming left wing, as far as you were able to observe.
Mr. Lee. That is right.
Mr. Mundt. And finally they became so definitely procommunistic
that you felt tliat you did not want a lady of that type pressing herself
on your person.
Mr. Lee. That is right.
Mr. IMuNDT. So, 3'ou decided to break the relationship.
Mr. Lee. That is"^right.
Mr. Mundt. Certainly, then as an officer of the OSS whose job, in
part, was counterespionage, you must have reported that strauge
sequence of events to some one of your superior officers. You did not
keep that secret to yourself. Surely, you must have told someone
and I am trying to find out to whom, as a subordinate officer, you re-
ported this strange sequence of events which finally became apparent to
you and your wife.
Mr. Lee. JNIr. jNlundt, I must respectfully disagree that there was
anything that happened in our relationship with Miss Bentley that
led me to believe that I should report it to anyone. We considered
this to be entirely, if not primarily, a personal problem.
Mr. Mundt. Mr. Lee, a man of your eclucation and fine intellect
must surely have felt that there was something curious about the
fact that a pro-Communist woman should pursue you as an officer of
the OSS to press upon you her presence so frequently, to seek to meet
you at drug stores, to try to find occasions to contact you, whether
she had asked you for information or not. Surely, you must have
thought there was something peculiar about this communistically
inclined woman pressing herself upon yon.
Mr. Lee. She did not pursue me, sir, as an officer of the OSS, as far
as I knew then.
Mr. Mundt. You were an officer of the OSS ?
Mr. Lee. I was. That is perfectly true, sir.
Mr. Mundt. How could she pursue you in any other capacity?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 735
Mr. T.EK. Slie pursued my wife and me as personal friends; that is,
nt least, what we understood.
Mr. jMuxdt. That is what she gave you to understand?
Mr. Lee. Tliat is what she gave us to understand.
Mr. jNIundt. But surely a man who had the capacity in OSS to rise
up to the rank of lieutenant colonel had the capacity to figure out
that something was unusual; that this woman over a period of time
liad pursued you, either as an individual or as an oflicer in the OSS;
t ither way, you were in the OSS. and gradually it dawned upon you
tliat this woman was a Comnuuiist, so, "^ly wife and I should have
no more to do with her." But then you did not tell it to j^our superioi"
officer.
Mr. Lee. No. sir.
A[r. Mi'XDT. You did not report it to anyone.
Mr. Lee. Excuse me ; that is not the reason we decided not to have
anything more to do with her. The reason we decided was because
slie was a personal nuisance: the reason we gaA^e her was that because
we thouglit it would be kinder to her and hurt her less. It was an
im])ersonal reason.
Mr. MuNDT. You mean if she v>-as a little less persistent, even though
slie was a Communist, you would be perfectly willing to pursue the
association?
Mr. Lee. Unless I kn.ew in fact that she was a Communist. All I
knew, her views were too left wing, and I say that I never drew the
conclusion.
Mr. MuNDT. All I can say is that whatever else comes from this
testimony, that I am bitterly disappointed to find out that that is the
way the OSS operated under Mr. Donovan.
The Chairmax. Mr. Lee, I am going to review the record, or at least
I am going to have you review the record.
After vou jyraduated from Yale, what did vou do?
Mr. Lee. After I took my bachelor of arts degi'ee at Yale?
The CiiAiRMAX. Yes.
Mr. Lee. I went to Oxford for 3 years, sir.
The Chairman. And then you graduated from Oxford in what
vear?
Mr. Lee. In 1938.
The Chairman. What did you do after that ?
Mr. Lee. I took 1 vear of graduate work at the Yale Law School.
The Chairman. 1939. What did you do after that ?
Mr. Lee. I then went to work in General Donovan's law firm in
New York.
The Chairman. And you were with that law firm for how long a
period of time ?
Mr. Lee. Until I came to Washington in June of 1942 — the end of
June 1942.
The Chairman. So, in that period of 3 years, when you were in
New York, what organizations did you join?
]Mr. Lee. The only organizations that I can be sure that I joined at
that time — I was an associate, I think they call it, of the New York
City Bar Association. I served as counsel to two relief organizations,
and I believe that is all, sir. I was a member of the American Society
of Rhodes Scholars.
The Chairman. What are those relief organizations?
736 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Lee. One was the Russian War Relief and the other was known
as the China Aid Council, and the American Committee for Chinese
War Orphans.
The Chairman. How long were you counsel for the Russian War
Relief?
Mr. Lee. I do not recall exactl}^, sir. I should think about a year.
The Chairman. Why did you not continue as counsel for the Rus-
sian War Relief ?
Mr. Lee. Because I was coming to Washington to work for the
Government.
The Chairman. How did you get the position as counsel for the
Russian War Relief?
Mr. Lee. My services were recjuested by Mr. Carter, the president
of the organization, who asked General Donovan to release me part-
time to do that w^oik. It was not a job, I might say, that I sought.
The Chairman. Had you known Mr. Carter prior to that time that
he approached you to take the position?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir; I met him before.
The Chairman. Where did you meet Mr. Carter ?
Mr. Lee. I do not recall precisely. I knew his Avife in this Chinese
relief organization; she was the head of that, and I worked with her.
The Chairman. How long had 3'ou known jNIr. Cailer?
Mr. Lee. Since sometime in 1940, Mr. Chairman. I would guess it
Avas that time — it might be 1939.
I'he Chairman. Did you ever attend any meetings with Mr. Carter?
Mr. Lee. I have attended various board meetings of the Russian
War Relief with him.
The Chairman. I mean, prior to the time that you went as counsel
to the Russian "War Relief. Did vou attend any meetings with Mr.
Carter?
Mr. Lee. I do not recall any, sir.
The Chairman. Well, it is not clear to me just how Mr. Carter
liappened to select you as the person to be the counsel for the Russimi
War Relief.
Mr. Lee. I had met Mr. Carter through his wife, and I had for
some months prior to the organization of the Russian War Relief
worked for the Chinese relief organization and had put through a
consolidation of two separate relief organizations that had previously
existed and had done other legal jobs for them, and I imagine tliat
Mrs. Carter suggested that I was someone who could help him if he
Avanted help.
The Chairman. Did you belong to any other organizations in New
York, any civic organizations ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
The Chairman. Or patriotic organizations?
Mr. Lee. No, sir; not to my recollection.
The Chairman. When you came to Washington, did you join any
or<i:anization here in Washington?
Mr. Lee. During the war; no, sir. Since the war, I haA^e joined, I
think, the Institute of Pacific Relations, in 1946.
The Chairman. What Avas the name of that?
Mr. Lee. Institute of I'acific Relations. At that time, I Avas working
on Cldnese matters, and I Avanted to take the literature Avhich they
l)ut out currently on the Far East.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 737
The ('iiAiKMAX. Have you joined any other orounizations in
Washington besides that?
Mr. Lee. No, sir; not to ni}' recollection.
The CiiAiR3iAN. Yon mentioned that Miss Bentley was a pergonal
luiisance.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. In what way was she a personal nuisance?
Mr. Lee. It is hard to describe this too precisely, sir.
What I am tryino- to say is that Miss Bentley, as we got to know he:
over a period of months.' seemed to us to rely too much emotionally
u])on us, as though we were an emotional crutch for her.
The CiTATinrAx. That is not clear to me. I would just like to havt^
you explain tlnit. Assuming that I am Miss B?ntley, how would
i —
(Laughter.)
]Mr. Lee. Well, sir. I see the difiiculty, Mr. Chairman. For one
tiling. Miss Bentley protested her affection for us too nnich; she called
us up, we felt, more often than the acquaintance justified.
The Chairmax. Well, would anybody be a personal nuisance jusb
because they called you up more times than were justified?
Mr. Lee.' I might mention one other thing in that connection, sir.
As I say, when we first met Miss Bentley we felt that she was an
unusually interesting and well-informed person. As we got to know
lier better, we revised our opinion in that respect as well. AVe found
her somewhat dull.
The Chairman. So, when you found her dull, and then you thought
it essential to meet her in a drug store and tell her that she was too
chill ?
Mr. Lee. I was careful not to tell her that, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Well, was it necessary to go out of the house and
go to a drug store to sever the friendship?
Mr. Lee." Mr. Chairman, I suppose people have different ways of
getting rid of an emotional friend. It is a difficult problem, I think,
in each case. I am not sure that we handled it in the best possible
way. But we did vdiat we considered at that time to be the kindest
and the easiest way. We felt that we had here an extremely tense,
emotional situation that might result in a scene anyway, and we
wanted
The Chairman. Well, aside from her calling you a number of times,
in what other ways was she a nuisance ?
Mr. Lee. She protested her fondness for us too much.
The Chairman. She protested fondness ?
Mr. Lee. She kept saying how fond she was of us when she was
with us, and she said it too often and too much. It seemed to us
unnatural and unhealthy.
The Chairman. I do'not quite understand that, but maybe you are
right. [Laughter.]
Then, when you went to the drug store, just relate the conversation
that you had with Miss Bentley at the drug store?
Mr. Lee. Well, I cannot recall the precise conversation, Mr. Chair-
man. I do know that the two meetings that I recall having with Miss
Bentley in a drug store were the last two times that 1 ever saw her, and
80408—48 16
738 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
1 went to meet her for the purpose of persuading her that we should
end this acquaintance, and as near as I can recall. Miss Bentley was
concerned to see to it, as far as possible, that she should continue it,
and kept asking whether we had not changed our mind, and that sort
of thing.
The Chairmax. Would it not have been more natural if your wife
had gone to the drug store and met Miss Bentley ?
Mr. Lee. As I say, sir, my wife and I both met Miss Bentley on one
occasion at Martin's Restaurant after the incidents that I have pre-
viously described. The other two times my wife just did not want to
go or else we did not have a sitter. I do not recall precisely why.
The Chairman. When you went to the drug store the first time,
what did you discuss with Miss Bentley? You said there were two
meetings in tlie drug store.
Mr. Lee. As far as I recall, Mr. Chairman, we discussed the same
thing on both occasions.
The Chairman. And the approximate date ©f the second meeting
was when?
Mr. Lee. I would say that both meetings occurred possibly one in
November and the other in December of 1944.
The Chairman. Now, you said her views were too extreme.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Please explain in detail to the committee just what
you mean b}' tlie statement that her "views were too extreme."
Mr. Lee. I mean just this, sir, that as we got to know Miss Bentley
better, she seemed to prefer ai-guments with us on such issues as the
rights and wrongs of the Soviet cause and the Russian-German pact.
As to whether the second front was delayed in coming, as to whether
the Soviet regime in Russia was a good thing for the Russians or a
bad tiling for the Russians, were some of the things she discussed,
and since we did not see eye to eye on those points, the discussions
liecame, on the whole, less enjoyable.
The Chairman. Have you ever been in one of the Longchamps
Restaurants ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Which one?
Mr. Lee. I have been in various Longchamps Restaurants.
The Chairman. Have you been in the one down at Twelfth Street?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir; I recall meeting Miss Bentley on one occasion.
The Chairman. You said that before, I take it ?
Mr. Lee. Sir?
The Chairman. I say, you admitted that before.
Mr. Lee. I do not believe I was asked that before.
The Chairman. When you met Miss Bentley down in the Long-
champs Restaurant before, what was the purpose of that meeting?
Mr. Lee. I, at that time, Mr. Chairman, believe that our relations
with Miss Bentley were good, and we still were fond of her. She
liad said to call her up whenever I was in New York, and I think
I did on two occasions. One was the dinner which I described,
and one was this meeting, and all I can recall about it was that we
had a drink.
The Chairman." What time of the day was that?
Mr. Lee. About the cocktail hour, 5 o'clock or 6 — somewhere around
there.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 739
The Chairman. How long did you stay at the Longchainps Res-
taurant^
Mr. Lee. I cannot recall exactly, sir. I think enough time to have,
perhaps, two Martinis.
The Chairman. Just you two alone?
■ Mr. Lee. Yes, sir ; as near as I can recall, I am quite sure of that.
The Chairman. You had Miss Bentley's telephone number ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What is her number — what was her number?
Mr. Lee. I do not remember now, sir. I no longer have it. I
think the exchange was Watkins.
The Chairman. Did you have her telephone number in both New
York and AVashington?
Mr. Lee. I did not know she had a Washington number, Mr. Chair-
man.
The Chairman. Did you know where she stayed in Washington
when she came to Washington ?
Mr. Lee. No; I think I was under the impression that she fre-
quently took night trains back to New York.
The Chairman. Then, how did you get in touch with Miss Bentley
when you wanted to meet her in the drug store ?
Mr. Lee. She called us, sir.
The Chairman. She called you ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir. I would say that except for two occasions when
1 called Miss Bentley in New York, at a time when there was a genuine
friendship there, neither my wife nor I ever took the initiative of seeing
]Miss Bentley.
The Chairman. Well, now, you admit that you met her twice in
a drug store in Washington ; you admit that you met her in a Long-
champs Restaurant down at Twelfth Street, New York City.
JNIr. Lee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What other times did you meet Miss Bentley, and
where?
Mr. Lee. I think we have covered in this testimony all the other
times that I have ever met Miss Bentley.
The Chairman. Well, you just tell me.
Mr. Lee. Well, that would be, sir, the meetings that you describe,
the ones we had dinner together at Martin's once, the three of us
The Chairman. Martin's? Where is that?
Mr. Lee. INIartin's Restaurant in Georgetown. That was in George-
town, Mr. Chairman, and the other meetings, as far as I can recall,
were in our house or in our apartment.
The Chairman. There were no other meetings in New York City ?
INIr. Lee. Only the ones that I described.
The Chairman. That is the one at Longchamps ?
Mr. Lee. That is right.
The Chairman. What was the other one again ?
IMr. Lee. That was in a restaurant on the west side.
The Chairman. What is the name of that restaurant ?
Mr. Lee. I am not sure I recall now, sir. All I can say is that it
v.as very far to the west, nearly at the Hudson.
The Chairman. Do you know the name of that restaurant?
Mr. Strh'ling. Was that the one at which Golos was present?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
740 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Wlien was tliis ?
Mr. Lee, My recollection is that it would be some months after first
meeting Miss Bentley. I imagine that would be the early spring of
1944.
Mr. Striplixg. "Well, he died in Xovember 1943.
Mr. Lee. Well, then, it must have been earlier.
The Chairman. All right.
Now, when you met Mr. Golos. what was the purpose of that meet-
ing with Mr. Golos and INIiss Bentley ?
Mr. Lee. There Avas no purpose as far as I was concerned. He was
someone along with her, and I had not expected to see him.
The Chairman. So, if he died when he did, Mr. Stripling — when
did he die?
JSIr. Stripling. November 1913.
The Chairman. November 1943, it must have been earlier than that.
Mr. Lee. Mr. Chairman, may I say one thing? We are talking
about events that occurred 5 years ago, and I do not pretend to be
precise.
The Chairman. I realize that. Who arranged for that meeting
between Mr. Golos, Miss Bentley, and yourself?
Mr. Lee. Which one, sir, the meeting in New York ?
The Chairman. The meeting which you had in New York.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir. I called Miss Bentley when I got to Nev\' York
on this occasion, and I forget whether I suggested that we have din-
ner or whether she did. I think she did. And when I got to the
restaurant, Mr. Golos was there present. He was there with her.
The Chairman. Had you ever heard of Mr. Golos before that
time?
Mr. Lee. My recollection is that this was the second time I saw him ;
I had met him in Washington previously.
The Chairman. Where did you meet Mr. Golos in Washington
previously ?
Mr. Lee. At this 823 Kestaurant.
The Chairman. Did you know that at that time or did you know
at the second meeting that Mr. Golos was a member of the Communist
Party?
Mv. Lee. I at no time — at no time did I know that until I was so
informed several years later.
The Chairman. At these two meetings at which JNIr. Golos and Miss
Bentley were present, what was the purpose of the meeting, and what
did you discuss, generally ?
Mr. Lee. Well, sir, I cannot recall what the precise topics of discus-
sion were ; it was entirely a social meeting.
The Chairman. I see.
Mr. Lee. And we talked about whatever was being talked about at
the time.
The Chairman. Then, when you later discovered that Mr. Golos
was a Comnumist. did you know Miss Bentley at that time, or were
you having contacts with Miss Bentley at that time?
Mr. Lee. No, sir. I had learned Mr. Golos was a Communist" and
IMiss Bentley was at the time I was asked to testify in New York a
year ago.
The Chahjman. Those are all the questions I have. Mr. Hebert.
Mr. Heisert. INIr. Lcc
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 741
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
^Ir. Hebert. Tell us again when was the first time that you met
JNIiss Bentley, where, and on what occasion?
Mr. Lee. My recollection is that it Avas after I got back from the
Par East in 19-'U, which would put — excuse me, in 19i3, which would
l)ut it in October.
Mr. Hebert. Of 1943?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert, Where did you meet her ?
]Mr. Lee. At the apartment of Mary Price.
Mr. Hebert. Where is Mary Price's apartment?
Mr. Lee. It is at, I believe — between Twentieth and Twenty-first,
on Ej'e.
Mr. Hebert. In Washinoton ?
]Mr. Lee. Yes. sir. The location was given a short time ago.
]Mr. Hebert. Didn't Miss Price live alone ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. What was the occasion of your meeting with Miss
Bentley ?
Mv. Lee. We were just asked to drop in for drinks, as I recall.
^Nlr. Hebert. ]Miss Price asked vou and your wife to drop in for
drinks?
Mr. Lee. Yes. sir. I believe there were several other people present.
]\Ir. Hebert. Name some of the people present.
Mr. Lee. I do not recall who they were, sir.
]Mr. Hebert. You realize that is important?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir ; but it is also 5 years ago.
Mr. Hebert. But you do realize it is important for the sake of
veracity right now.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir, if I knew I was going to be questioned about it
5 jears later, I would probablj^ have made a memorandum, but there
was no reason to think so.
]\f r. Hebert. You were a member of the OSS, were you not ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. And the OSS is quite steeped in caution and suspicion,
is it not? I would say oversteeped in caution and suspicion.
Mr. Lee. OSS tried always to be cautious, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Didn't you try to be cautious?
]Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. And out of all of these people — how many people were
present in Mary Price's apartment?
Mr. Lee. I can not recall, sir ; maybe two, maybe three.
ISIr. Hebert. You mean to tell me that a man in OSS, even 5 years
later, 10 years later, or 20 years later, on an occasion like this, which
is so memorable, cannot tell me whether two, three, four, or five people
were present in Mary Price's apartment when you met Miss Bentley?
Mr. Lee. I am afraid I will have to say that, yes.
Mr. Hebert. Definitely Mary Price could say whether or not you
met Miss Bentley there?
yiv. Lee. I assume she could.
3,Ir. Hebert. Your wife could say whether she met Miss Bentley on
that occasion?
Mr. Lee. Yes. sir.
]Mr. Hebert. And nobodv else ?
742 CdMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Lee. Well, there probabh- are otl\er people, sir, but I do not
know who they are now,
i\Ir. Hebert. Nobody else in that gathering of intellect impressed
you as JNIiss Bentley did?
Mr. Lee. No, sirl
Mr. Hebert. She was an outstanding woman in that crowd?
Mr. Lee. She seemed to be ; yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. And that is why she so impressed you?
Mr. Lee. She talked to us most of the time, as I recall.
Mr. Hebert. And if there had been anybody there of equal intellect
or of attractiveness, you certainly^ would have remembered it.
Mr. Lee. Well, nobody else was there of equal intellect or otherwise,
Congressman, who appeared to find us attractive enough to follow us
up in the Avay Miss Bentley did.
Mr. Hebert. Now, looking back in retrospect, you think Miss
Bentley had a purpose in following you up?
Mr. Lee. That may be, sir.
Mr. Hebert. What do you think ?
Mr. Lee. I am frankly completely bewildered. Congressman, by
Miss Bentley's testimony. I know one thing, that from her testimony
of today she has an extremely vivid imagination. As to how far her
description of activity is true, I really cannot say. I know they are
not true as far as I am concerned.
]Mr. HioBERT. Then I will ask you the same question I asked Miss
Bentley. You have both told diametrically opposed stories, and one
of you is lying.
Mr. Lee. That is right, sir.
Mr. Hebert. You are not?
Mr. Lee. Th;-t is right, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Now, jou say Miss Bentley called your apartment,
and your wife said that you should go down to meet her in a drug
store.
Mr. Lee. Well, I do not think I consulted my wife on that point.
Miss Bentley had called the apartment after we had made it clear
she was not to be seen by us any more, and after we had very re-
luctantly agreed that we would meet her in public occasionally.
Ml-. Hebert. I think the testimony will show that wdien you origi-
nally testified this morning you said that Miss Bentley called, and
probably your wife did not have a sitter or could not go down,
jind she told you to go down and see Miss Bentle}' and get rid of her
just as quickly as you could.
Mr. Lee. That "is right.
Mr. Hebert. That is not what 5'ou now said.
Mr. Lee. You asked if I was given permission.
Mr. Hebert. Let us not banter Avith Avords. You know what I mean.
Mr. Lee. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. Tell me what happened.
Mr. Lee. Just as I say, Congressman, Miss Bentley called and asked
if I could meet her. My wife said in elfect, "I don't want to go," or
"I can't go. and you go down and get rid of her."
Mr. Hebert. So, she told you to go down to the drug store and get
rid of her.
jNIr. Lee. Yes, sir.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 743
Mr. Hebert. Yoli are an old OSS man, steeped in suspicion and
caution, you had your uniform on. You did not want to see Miss-
Bentley because you were afraid of her communistic leanings.
Mr, Lee. No, sir ; that is not why I did not want to see Miss Bentley.
Mr. Hebert. Wh}^ did you not want to see her?
Mr. Lee. Because she was a j^ersonal nuisance to me.
Mr. Hebert. Didn't you say that you could not agree with her left-
wing leanings?
Mr. Lee. That is right, sir. That was a very minor factor.
^Ir. Hebert, You. an OSS man, say it was a minor factor that you
were associating with an outspoken Communist?
JMr, Lee. I do not know she was a Communist; I thought her views
were too far to the left.
Mr. Hebert. Well, you described in detail about some of the discus-
sions you had about the second front, the German-Russian pact.
Mr. Lee, Yes, sir,
ISIr, Hebert. You just did not pass that off en passant. You dis-
cussed that at length.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. You know what her feelings were?
Mr. Lee, Yes, sir.
Mr, Hebert. You knew she was extremely to the left?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir,
Mr, Hebert, You knew she was extremely pro-Soviet?
Mr, Lee. Yes. sir. A great many people were at that time,
Mr, Hebert. Then, you, as an OSS man, consider that as a minor
thing?
Mr, Lee, I did not consider that it proved tliat she was a member
of the Communist Part3^ and certainly did not consider that it proved
she was a Russian spy,
Mr, Hebert. But you say, you did not want to see her any more
on account of these leanings, and on account of the personal aspect,
Mr, Lee, As I say, this was a minor reason. In fact, the major
reason was that she was a personal nuisance to us. and we did not
want to see her.
Mr. Hebert. In other words, the fact of her leftist leanings had
really no importance at all.
Mr. Lee. If she had not been a personal nuisance to us, and I had
no i-eason to suppose she Avas actually a member of the Communist
Party, I imagine Ave would have continued to see her.
Mr, Hebert. Then, it did not have anything to do with her rela-
tionship?
Mr. Lee. It was an element.
Mr. Hebert. A very minor element. Did you not testify this morn-
ing that you did not want to be seen in public Avith her?
Mr. Lee. As I say, sir, that was a very minor element. The only
problem here. Congressman, is the degree of importance that these
two motives had. I tried to make it as clear as possible.
Mr. Hebert. But a'ou did testify you did not want to be seen in
public with her.
Mr. Lee. I do not think I said that, sir, I said I thought it was a
possible source of embarrassment to have as a knoAvn friend of ours
someone who was now talking as left-Aving as Miss Bentley was.
744 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Hebert. Repeat that so I can get it clear. I am a little dull.
I want you to repeat what you just said.
Mr. Lee. What I believe I said, sir, was that I considered it a possible
source of embarrassment in my position to have as a friend someone
who was as outspokenly left-wing as Miss Bentley had by then become.
Mr. Hebert. That is what I thought you said.
Mr. Lee. That is right, sir.
Mr. HEiiERT. But yet, in the same breath, you tell us that that was a
minor consideration.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir ; because I had no reason to suppose that she was
a member of the Communist Party, and certainly no reason to suppose
that she was seeking information for the Communist Party.
Mr. Hebert. But you did think it woukl be embarrassing to be seen
with Miss Bentley because of her communistic leanings.
Mr. Lee. I thouglit it might be.
Mr. Hebert. And yet you met her in a public place.
Mr. Lee. That is right, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Was that the last time you met her ?
Mr. Lee. The last time I met her was in a drug store in Georgetown ;
yes, sir ; to the best of my recollection.
Mr. Hebert. After the phone call to your residence, and when your
wife told you to get rid of her, your wife told you to go out and get
rid of her
Mr. Lee. That is right.
Mr. Hebert. You never saw her after that ?
Mr. Lee. Not until yesterday.
Mr. Hebert. Not until yesterday. She never called your home
iigain ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Hebert. She never in your estimation annoyed you any more ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Never attempted to contact you ?
Mr. Lee. No.
Mr. Hebert. When was that now ?
Mr. Lee. This was at the very end of 1944 or early January 1945. I
could not be exact about that.
Mr. Hebert. But all of this matter which was being discussed now
is something that you did not come into knowledge of when this hear-
ing opened, is it?
Mr. Lee. How is that, sir?
Mr. Hebert. This matter that we are discussing now, this is not
your first knowledge of it Avhen these hearings opened ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir. I was questioned nbout it a year ago.
Mr. Hebert. What was the occasion of that ?
Mr. Lee. I was questioned on one occasion by two agents of the FBI,
and somewhat later last summer I was questioned by the grand jury in
New York.
Mr. Hebert. In this same connection ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mv. Hebert. Now, you say ^liss Bentley was a very emotional
person and created a scene in your home.
Mr. Lee. She did on that occasion ; yes, sir.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 745
Mr. PIebert. Did it occur to a man of your intelligence that she
might create a scene in a public place such as a drug store if you went
out to see her ?
Mr. Lee. I hoped I could avoid having her do that. I want to make
clear one thing, sir, that, though we wanted to end this relationship
with Miss Bentley, we had been fond of her, and we wanted to do it so
that it would not hurt her — to do it in a way that would hurt her a&
little as possible. We were not motivated entirely by a fear that she
would create a scene. We simply wanted to take her oS our list of
acquaintances.
Mr. Hebert. Now, when you were questioned previously on this
matter, were the same facts or the alleged facts presented to you as
charges by INIiss Bentley against you?
Mr. Lee. Miss Bentley Avas not present when I was questioned pre-
viously, sir, and I am not sure just how far I should testify.
Mr. Hebert. I am not asking 3'ou to do that. I recognize that.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. As far as the grand jury is concerned, as far as the
FBI is concerned, you are free to say anything you told. AVas Miss
Bentley's name projected into your questioning before this date I
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. How long ago ?
Mr. Lee. About a year ago.
Mr. Hebert. Then, for 1 year you have had the knowledge that you
have been charged by Miss JBentley or others ; certainly you have had
the knowledge, that you have been under suspicion to the degree that
you have been questioned.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. In connection with A^our activities during the Avar.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mv. Hebert. Noav, this Eussian society of — Avhat do you call it^
that business that you Avere counsel of I
Mr. Lee. Russian War Relief.
Mr. Hebert. Yes. What kind of a society or an organization Avas
it?
Mr. Lee. It Avas a private relief organization.
Mr. Hebert. Who sponsored it ?
Mr. Lee. A great many people. I can submit for the committee,
if it does not already have the information, the m?mbers of its board
of directors and sponsors, and so on. I do not have that information
Avith me. I can merely say this, that they Avere, to the best of my
knoAAdedge, all extremely respectable conservative people.
Mr. Hebert. What Avas the purpose of that organization ?
Mr. Lee. To raise money for Russia.
Mr. Hebert. Then, to raise money for Russia
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir. Russia Avas at that time carrying, I think, most
people felt, the brunt of the Avar. This Avas in 1941 and 1942. A great
deal of money Avas raised for Russia.
Mr. Hebert. And how Avas that money expended?
Mr. Lee. Sir, I do not think that is something that I am in a posi-
tion to testify to.
Mr. Hebert. AVell, during your services in the high executive posi-
tion
746 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Lee. I would merely say this, that there were public reports
made to the Presideut's Committee on Relief Organizations and other
comjjetent authorities, and those reports are available.
Mr. Hebert. This was in 1941 or 1942 that you were associated
with them ? Well, the early part of the war.
Mr. Lee. I think it was organized in 1941. Congressman, and I
continued my association until I left New York in 1942.
Mr. Hebert. In your duties then you came in contact with many
JRussian peojDle, undoubtedly.
iNIr. Lee. Not very much ; no, sir.
Mr. Hebert. You did not ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Did you come in contact vcith any Communists?
Mr. Lee. I would not know, sir. Most, of the people I came in
contact with were either Wall Street bankers or Wall Street lawyers.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Hebert. That would be in your general duty. I mean in your
duties as an executive of the Russian society.
Mr. Lee. Well, those are the people I dealt with, sir; those were
the members of the board and the top executive officers.
Mr. Hebert. Well, you did not come in contact with people who
were — and mind you I do not cast any aspersion on the Russian who
wants to be a Communist if he wants to be that ; that is his business —
but you did not come in contact Avith any of these Communists, these
official representatives of the Russian Government who ipso facto
have to be Communists?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Hebert. You never came in contact
Mr. Lee. I w^as invited during the time I was on that board once
to a leception in the Russian Embassy in Washington, as was every
member of the board. I did not attend that since I was in New Yoi-k.
Ml'. Hebert. But after you got into the OSS, were you not in-
structed in the ways and means of sort of recognizing Communists
or s])ys or espionage agents, or w^as that not in your field ?
Mr. Lee. I w^as doing administrative or legal work, sir. I was not
an agent in that field, and had nothing to do with operations until
considerably later.
Mr. Hebert. But you came in contact with a great many individuals
in OSS who were well schooled in that art.
Mr. Lee. Yes. sir. And there was careful
Mr. Hebert. From 1 eing exposed to contact with them, didn't you
discuss Russian agents and Communists and espionage agents?
Mr. Lee. At that time, sir, we were more inclined to discuss German
agents.
jNIr. Hebert. The OSS was never suspicious of Russia even at that
time ?
INIr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mv. Hebert. Tliey were suspicious?
jVFr. Lee. I would assume so.
Mr. Hebert. Well, you l:now. sir. do you not ? Didn't you discu=;s it ?
ISIr. Lee. Yes, sir; I am sure there were discussions. But I cannot
recfjll anv pai'ticular discussions.
INIr. Hebert. But you were on the qui vive all the time, were you
not?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 747
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Wh}' is it that you missed Miss Bentley, an emo-
lional woman?
Mr. Lee. Well, sir, being an emotional woman cannot strike me and
■does not now, as showing that she was a Russian espionage agent.
Mr. Hebert. Then you are surprised to find now that she was a
Russian espionage agent?
jNIr. Lee. I was surprised to find it when I first learned of it.
]Mr. Hebert. And that was the first inkling when you were first sum-
moned for questioning ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Was that the first time that you heard that Golos was
a Russian espionage agent?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
iVIr. Hebert. You say you are not now and have never been a mem-
ber of the Communist Party?
Mr. Lee. That is right, sir.
Mr. Hebert. You heard Miss Bentley testify she collected Com-
munist Party dues from you.
Mr. Lee. I heard that; yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Is that true or not true ?
Mr. Lee. That is not true.
Mr. Hebert. You heard Miss Bentlev describe her first meeting
and going to your apartment and introducing herself as Helen, and
the first time she met you ?
IMi". Lee. I heard that, sir.
j\Ir. Hebert. Is that true ?
]Mr. Lee. That is not true.
Mr. Hebert. You knew her previously to that?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Have you ever been a member of any organization
whicli was later described as a front organization for the Communist
Party?
My. Lee. Not to the best of my knowledge, sir. I am sure I was not.
]\Ir. Hebert. Can you ascribe any reason why Miss Bentley should
tell such a fabrication, as you submit that she has told to this com-
mittee and to otlier Government authorities on different occasions,
and involve you?
Mr. Lee. I certainly cannot, sir, except for the reason I suggested
in my statement.
Mr. Hebert. Repeat it.
Mr. Lee. I will just read this paragraph, if I may :
It is har/l for me to believe that Miss Rentley's statements are those of a
rational person. In trying to recall my acquaintance with Miss Bentley I have
been puzzled that I do not remember that she ever tried to get any information
from me. In view of that fact I am tempted to believe that Miss Bentley used
her social relationship with me merely to help her misrepresent to her employers
for her own i^ersonal l)uild-up that she had access through me to someone of the
importance of General Donovan.
Mr. Hebert. Is that the only reason you can ascribe?
Mr. Lee. There may be personal spite, I do not know.
Mr. Hebert. Is there any reason for her to have personal spite
against you?
Mr. Lee. She may have been angry because we broke off the rela-
tion.ship.
748 ^ COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Hebert. Is there anvbodv else other than Miss Bentley who ever
associated with 3^011 who was in espionage activities c
Mr. Lee. No, sir; so far as I know, sir.
Mr. Hebert. And now, reviewing your Avhole testimony, reviewing
the whole situation, you are prepared now under oath to say that all
of these charges, all of the statements as directed against you, are not
true?
Mr. Lee. I am prepared to say that, sir. and may I add one thing
at that point regarding some of the information that Miss B:ntley
has said that I gave. I want to say also for the record that opera-
tions of the OSS in Turkey and in the Balkans were something that I
had nothing to do with, and knew nothing about, except in the most
general way. And as far as an exchange of NKVD-OSS agents goes,
I knew generally about such a thing, but so did a great many other
people in Washington, and the whole story has been told iii' consider-
able detail in General Donovan's book.
^Ir. Hebert. Is that one particular thing, about the swapping of
the agents?
Mr. Lee. As I understand it, sir, it was not a swapping of agents,
in the first place. It was a swapping of missions.
Mr. Hebert. But Miss B?ntley described it as a swapping of
agents and Avas indefinite as to the number, and said that was discussed
with you. Was that ever discussed with you?
Mr. Lee. That was never discussed with me, sir.
Mr. Hebert. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDoavell. Colonel Lee, will vou tell me the various ranks
you had in the OSS ?
Mr. Lee. The various what, sir?
Mr. McDow^ELL. Ranks, your army ranks.
Mr. Lee. First lieutenant, captain, major, and lieutenant colonel.
Mr. McDow^ELL. All four of them?
Ml-. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. McDowell. All officers of your various ranks in the OSS, I
presume, were given schooling and a briefing in the methods and the
operation of the OSS.
Mr. Lee. It W'Ould depend on what the job was, sir. There was
special training for different types of jobs. As I say, my job was at
all times administrative.
Mr. McDowell. Well, in your administrative jobs — understand. I
am making no effort at all to pry into the secrets of the OSS
Mr. Lee. Right, sir.
Mr. McDowell. But I do not w^ant you to answ^er any of those.
In your various administrative jobs, you would have other officers,
and perhaps, other men under your command?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. McDowell. Did you ever make any effort to assure yourself
that these people were cautious and fearful of the various secret
material that would pass over your desk and would be within your
jurisdiction?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir. The OSS, as every agency of its sort during
the war, had very strict security procedures relating to the handling
of classified material, when they should be disclosed, and so forth, and
there was generally A'ery clear and very thorough security instructions.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 749
Mr. McDoAVELL. Colonel, would you, in your various ranks up to
lieutenant colonel, ever make any effort to assure yourself of the people
under you and whom they associated with ?
Mr. Lee. That was the responsibility, sir, of the Security Office
of OSS. I did not make a personal effort to find out who every indi-
vidual I associated — who might have served under me was associating
with in private life : no, sir.
Mr. McDowell, Would it be your responsibility?
Mr, Lee, It was not my responsibility.
Mr. McDow^ell. Now, 5 years after all of this, does it not occur
to you that it was strange, very strange, that a now known Soviet
spy, recognized espionage agent, had at least two meetings with you
at odd places, restaurants, while 3'ou were a responsible officer of the
hush-hush organization ?
Mr. Lee, Xo, sir ; it does not seem to me strange under the circum-
stances that I have given,
Mr, McDowell, This Golos, it appears, was a highly important
Soviet agent,
Mr, Lee, So I am given to understand, sir.
Mr, McDowell, Do you believe he was ?
JNIr, Lee, I know nothing, sir, except what I have read in the news-
pai)ers, I certainly would not have gotten that impression from
meeting him. He was, on the whole, a very colorless character, and,
iis I say, very ill.
Mr. McDowell, Would his conversation with you at these various
restaurants verge into politics, left-wing affairs, Soviet affairs?
Mr, Lee. I do not recall that they did ; no.
]\Ir. McDowell. Never discussed any second front or anything of
that kind?
Mr. Lee. He may have touched on it. That was being discussed
all tlie time, but only in the way anyone would have discussed it,
]Mr. McDowell. I think it would not violate any important secrets
if you would answer this. In the ranks of lieutenant colonel and
major and captain and first lieutenant, you were not required to indi-
cate to some person, some superior, some security officer, whom you
are associated with
]\Ir. Lee. We were never — so far as I know, no one was ever required
to give a list of every acquaintance he had. Of course, everyone who
had the reason to suppose that he was seeing or had an acquaintance
witli a suspicious person was under the duty to report it. That goes
without saying, sir.
Mr. McDowell.. Well, now, Mr. Chairman, here, for, I believe,
the first time since the conspiracy of Aaron Burr, a high officer of
the Army has been accused publicly of the violation of the Articles
of War, which he must certainly realize the penalties of and the pun-
ishment. The questions which are flooding my mind at this moment,
I feel, should not be given here, I have no further questions now.
The Chairmax, Mr, Mundt,
Mr. Mundt, As I remember correctly, Mr, Lee, you said that you
had first met Miss Bentley in the home of Mary Price. .
Mr, Lee, Yes, sir,
Mr. Mundt, In October of 1943.
Mr. Lee, To the best of my recollection that is the date, I am
positive about the year.
750 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. MuNDT. You are positive about the year?
Mr. Lee. I am positive about the year and about the place.
Mr. Mi'NDT. It might be a discrepancy of a month or two?
Mr. Lee. Oh, certainly, sir.
Mr. MuxDT. How long after you first met Miss Bentley did you
first meet Mr. Golos ?
Mr. Lee. I think it was 6 to 8 weeks afterward. I cannot — it was
early in our acquaintance; I know that. I cannot say positively.
Mr. MuNDT. Six or eight weeks ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. iNlt NOT. How long after your first meeting with Mr. Golos did
you meet Mr. Golos for the second time?
Mr. Lee. It was some weeks later. I do not remember how long^
Mr. MuNDT. Approximately how long?
Mr. Lee. I am afraid I do not recall that, Congressman.
Mr. MuxDT. You must have some idea.
Mr. Lee. Well, I would say i or 5 weeks, maybe. It was whenever
I Avas in New York next and called Miss Bentley.
Mr. MuNDT. When did Mr. Golos die, Mr. Stripling?
ISIr. Stripling. November 1948.
Mr. MuNDT. NoM% you have testified that you met him first — that
you met Miss Bentley first in October 1943, and that 6 or 8 weeks later,
which would be so)netime in November or December 1943, you met
Golos for the first time, and a month or so later, which would take us
at least 2 months beyond the time of his death, you met him the second
time. How do you explain that discrepancy?
Mr. Lee. That was to the best of my recollection, sir. As I say, this
was 5 years ago, and I cannot be positive of these dates.
Mr. MuNDT. You realize that if you first met Miss Bentley in Octo-
ber 1943, as I say you say you did, then your story is not correct as
to the meeting of Mr. Golos.
Mv. Lee. If he died in November, I realize that there certainly is
a discrepancy there. Maybe I met Miss Bentley before that! I
thought it was in October, directly after I came back from the Far
East.
Mr. MuNDT. That is the date which we might be able to substantiate,
} ou believe, by talking to Mary Price.
Mr. Lee. Well, the reason I remember the date is I thought it was
f.fter my trip to the Far East.
Mr. ]\IuNDT. I am sorry ; I did not get the answer.
Mr, Lee. Excuse me, sir. I say the reason I have given the date is
on account of the fact that I believe it was directly after my trip to
the Far P^ast. I do not recall having met Miss Bentley before that.
Mr. Mfndt. Were you on official business at that time so that, per-
Invps, some voucher that you put in for an expense trip to New York
iniglit indicate the exact time of your meeting with Miss Bentley?
Mr. I^EE. It is possible, sir. 1 made a great many trips to New
York.
Mi-. Mi^xDT. Were you on an official business trip to New York at
tliat time?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir; I am quite sure I was.
Mr. MuNDT. To Avhom did you submit your travel vouchers for re-
imbursement for pay?
COAIAIUNIST ESPIONAGE 751
Mr. Lee. I am trying to recall now just what the procedures were.
Jt lias been some time since I did that. To the finance officer in OSS.
Mr. MrxDT. Could that be made a matter of public record as to the
\ouchers that you submitted for pay during 194-3 to the finance officer
of OSS?
Mr. Lee. I assume it could be. sir.
Mr. MuxDT. We would have your i)ermission to check the records?'
Mr. Lee. Oh, certainly, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. The Goyernment's permission
Mr. Lee. Certainly, sir.
Mv. Hebert. ]May I interpose and say that we may not be able to get
the Goyernment's permission?
Mr. MrxDT. I understand that the Ferguson committee has run into
an iron curtain, and we may. too. so I want to know if the witness is
'- -illing to giye us his permission, so that if we cannot get the record
I'.ecause of the willful obstinancy on the part of the administration,
it will be that, and not because of failing to get the permission of the-
witness.
You realize, of course, that that is a vevj important link in this
testimony, because of the death of Mr. Golos in November of 1943,
which should be a matter of record, there should be a matter of record
;is to whether or not — you should be able to substantiate whether or
I'ot you met her in October 1943.
Mr. Lee. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Now, we know that he died in November 1943. Does,
that help you refresh 3'our memory, to change your testimony in any
connection with what you have said about Mr. Golos?
]Mr. Lee. All I can say, Mr. Congressman, after 5 years, to the best
of my recollection, when asked, it was in October. Now, I am per-
lectly prepared to admit that my recollection could be faulty, and
tiiat I met Miss Bentley several months before.
Mr. MuNDT. I think you testified that among the organizations to
which you belonged in New York was the Institute of Pacific Rela-
tions.
Mr. Lee. Not when I was in New York, sir. I did not join the
Institute of Pacific Relations until 1946.
Mr. MuxDT. Are 3^011 present!}' a member of the Institute of Pacific
Relations ?
Mr. Lee. I am, sir; y«s.
INIr. MuxDT. Is that the organization of which Mr. Edward C.
Carter is the president?
]\Ir. Lee. Yes, sir; I think he is called the executive secretary.
]Mr. MuNDT. Executive secretary.
Mr. Lee. At least, he is the head of it.
Mr. Mux^DT. That is correct. Are you reasonablj- familiar witk
the members of the board of directors of the Institute of Pacific
Relations?
Mr. Lee. No, sir; I am not. I became a member of the Institute of
Pacific Relations principally to subscribe to the research studies and
other literature which they put out. I take no active organizational
part.
]Mr. MrxDT. But you ha^-e known Edwavcl C. Carter?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir ; personally.
Mr. MuxDT. Do you know Mr. Frederick V. Field?
752 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Lee. No, sir ; I have never met Mr. Field.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know whether he is a member of the board of
clii'ectors of the Institute of Pacific Relations?
Mr. Lee. I seem to recall that I have heard tliat he is, but I am not
sure.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know that Mr. Frederick V. Field is a Com-
munist ?
Mr. Lee. I do not know Mr. Field, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. That was not my question.
Mr. Lee. I do not know whether he is a Communist or not, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. There is no reason to believe he is a Communist?
Mr. Lee. I know practically nothing about Mr. Field, except that
I have heard his name. That is all,
Mr. MuNDT. I have just one final question, which to me is the part
of your testimony which I wish you could tie together, at least, to
i.etter satisfaction, as far as I am concerned.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Tliat is the fact that certainly your whole sequence of
experience with Miss Bentley nuist, to a young man of your intelli-
gence, have seemed unusual by the time that you desired, on consulta-
tion with your wife, to terminate it.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. It is not the normal kind of sequence of friendship
which the average person has.
Mr, Lee, No, sir ; I hope I never make another friendship like it.
Mr. MuNDT, Eight.
Mr, Lee, It was unusual, sir, in a personal sense. I can merely re-
peat again that there was nothing in my acquaintance with Miss
Bentley to lead me to suppose that she was a Russian or a Communist
agent.
Mr. MuNDT. But you did testify that there were many indications
that led you to believe, near the time that you terminated your friend-
ship, that she was pro-Communist; she was talking the Communist
line, about various incidents that you described, the specific items
which led you to distrust her.
Mr. Lee, Yes, sir, that is true. But a great many people have held
such views without, so far as I know% being concerned with any such
activity as Miss Bentley claims she is concerned with.
Mr. MuNDT. But none of them had persistently endeavored to im-
pose themselves upon you, and to associate with you ?
Mr, Lee. No, that is true.
Mr. MuNDT. But in view of all of that, you still insist that you
never discussed this whole sequence in any way, shape, or form with
any of your superior officers ?
Mr, Lee. I certainly do,
Mr. MuNDT. Wliy not ?
Mr. Lee. What is that, sir ?
Mr. MuNDT. With any of your superior officers ?
Mr. Lee, No, sir, I did not because I thought there was nothing, as
far as I knew — there was nothing that would justify reportiug Miss
Bentley, As far as I was concerned, she was a neurotic friend which
presented a personal probl^em, and there was no occasion to make any
such report, I have known various friends of mine who have lefter
views than mine. It would never occur to me
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 753
Mr. MuNDT. You had other friends at that time whom you felt
might be Communists, who were seeking to impose themselves upon
you?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. INIuNDT. She was the only one ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuxDT. But still you made no mention of that?
]\Ir. Lee. I assumed she was seeking to impose herself upon us for
personal reasons.
Mr. INIuNDT. It did not occur to you that the fact that she was so pro-
Communist had anything to do with it ?
Mr. Lee. I do not believe that anyone who has talked to Miss Bentley
would get the impression that she could be engaged in any such activity.
Mr. INIuNDT. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question? Mr. Lee, what
is your attitude toward the Soviet Union as of this moment?
Mr. Lee. Well, frankly, sir, I don't like a great deal about the
Soviet Union. I do not like its political system, and I do not like its
conduct in foreign affairs.
Mr. Hebert. Have you ever criticized the Soviet Union ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir ; many times.
Mr. Mtjndt. Then, in the event of a war, whom would you be loyal
to, America or tlie Soviet Union ?
Mr. Lee. America, sir.
Mr. Hebert. That is all.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell, do you have any more questions ?
Mr. McDowell. I have no more questions, Mr. Chairman, but in
view of the testimony which has been given here today, and in the last
several days, it strikes at the very heart of America, its security. It
has finally gotten into the United States Army. Now, despite the
lack of success this committee has had in getting vitally important in-
formation from the executive branch of the Government, and despite
the lack of success the Senate committee has experienced, I think once
again that we should appeal to the executive branch of the Govern-
ment to supply us with that material which we need to further this
investigation; and I think that the chief investigator should be in-
structed to once again appeal to those agencies of the Government that
can give us information which will aid in solving this conspiracy that
undoubtedly has, and did, fasten itself on our Government. I am
going to continue making that demand just so long as these hearings
go on, and if the demand is not met with so far as this committee is
concerned, which has furnished some 22,000 times information to
the executive branch of the Government, those responsible for the
refusal must face the wrath of the American people.
The Chairman. The Chair would like to say right at that point
that this committee will seek information from various agencies of
the Government in the next few weeks in the course of these hear-
ings, and in the course of other hearings, and there will be no question
but that we will not hesitate to seek the information. We will go
after the information, all right, and we have a lot of information that
we would like to get, and we will not hesitate to request it.
Mr. Hebert. In connection with what has been said by you and
Mr. McDowell, let me make this point, which I think is most im-
80408—48 17
754 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
portant at this time. That forgetting whatever else has been de-
veloped at these hearings, forgetting the implications of this far-flung
espionage ring which exists, there is no doubt in anybody's mind, and
forgetting whether we have been able to adduce the facts and the truth
in connection with them, there is one thing that is self-evident, and
that is the fact that a crime or a violation, a criminal violation, of the
law has been committeed before this committee. These hearings are
filled with perjured testimony. There can be no doubt about it.
Witnesses have made diametrically opposed statements under oath
which, of necessity, makes one a perjured witness, and in furtherance
of your opening statement when these hearings started, that this mat-
ter was going to be turned over to the Department of Justice, and
asked to be placed before a grand jury for full investigation, there is
one fact that the Department of Justice cannot escape, that is, that
perjury has been committed here, and it is entirely their responsibility,
and they cannot evade it, that when their attention is called to this
matter, there must be prosecution for perjury on the part of the De-
partment of Justice as to these witnesses.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Chairman, I would like to associate myself with
the statements just made by Mr. Hebert, and to point out one further
fact, that in the interest of justice, that is all this committee is inter-
ested in, and in the interests of national security, that primarily at
this point in the interest of justice, either some very innocent-sounding
people are guilty of some very infamous crimes, or else some innocent
people have been injured by some highly infamous testimony ; and I
think that the executive agency owes it to the public, just as this
committee owes it to the public, to try to get at the facts and see which
of the two horns of that dilemma is accurate. The only way it can
be done is to have cooperation instead of stubborn, obstinate conceal-
ment by the executive agency, and I hope we will press for that kind
of cooperation and insist that this thing be tried out to the final, last
element of truth.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Mundt, I agree with you, but I do press the point,
that regardless of the excuses given for not furnishing us with in-
formation, which we rightly and justly deserve, in connection -with
justice, and that is all I am interested in, I frankly tell you I do not
know who is a liar and who is not a liar, but I am going to find out,
and I want to find out. I hold no brief for either side except in the
integrity of this committee, and in the integrity of any congressional
committee, and forgetting any excuse or lack of desire on the part of
Government officials to prosecute, they cannot escape the fact that
perjury has been committed before this committee; and I, for one,
insist and demand that the Department of Justice take steps to pros-
ecute the guilty individual or individuals who have committed perjury
before a congressional committee.
Mr. MuNDT. I agree 100 percent.
The Chairman. Now, Mr. Lee.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
The CiiAiRMAX. I want to get back to the meeting at the Price
apartment in, I think you said it was, October 1943.
.Mr. Lee. That was my recollection, sir.
The Chairman. Who contacted you, who invited you to that
meeting ?
Mr. Lee. Miss Price,
I COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 755
The Chairman. Miss Price did?
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, would you let the record show that
this is a subcommittee sitting?
The Chairman. The record already shows that.
Mr. Stripling. All right.
The Chairman. Was Mr. Golos present at that meeting?
Mr. Lee. No, sir. I am quite sure I met Mr. Golos later.
The Chairman. The only ones that you can recall are Miss Bentley
and Miss Price.
Mr. Lee. And my wife was there.
The Chairman. And your wife.
Mr. Lee. And my impression is that there were several other people.
The Chairman. Your impression is that thei-e were several other
people.
Mr. Lee. Yes, two or three other people were probably there, too.
The Chairman. You cannot recall the names of one of those other
persons ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir; I cannot.
Mi\ ^NIuNDT. Were there any other men there? You were at a
meeting entirely surrounded by women?
Mr. Lee. Well, I do not have the recollection, Mr. Mundt, that there
Avas. I think probably if there were I probably woidd have noticed it.
Mr. Mundt. You probably would have recalled if you were the only
man there.
Mr. Lee. Well, I might. I just do not remember.
The Chairman. Was that meeting at the apartment during the
da.ytime or in the evening?
Mr. Lee. I believe it was in the evening, sir.
The Chairman. What was the reason for the meeting?
Mr. Lee. We were asked to drop in for drinks, as I recall it.
The Chairman. You know, if you could recall the name of one other
person, it would helj) you.
Mr. Lee. I have tried to. sir. and I cannot.
The Chairman. Can't jonr wife recall the name of any other
people ?
Mr. Lee. I do not believe so, sir.
The Chairman. But 3^011 seem to be so clear about all these other
meetings, and so foggy about this one.
Mr. Lee. Well, this was the furthest back, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Lee, did you ever furnish any information, oral
or written, to Mary Price?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. At no time ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. When did you meet Mary Price first ?
Mr. Lee. I met her in New York at our apartment, where her sister
Mildred brought her, I think, in 1940.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know her very well ?
Mr. Lee. We got to know her quite well ; yes.
ISIr. Stripling. You never at any time gave her any information ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
jSlr. Stripling. Was she a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Lee. I do not know, sir.
756 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. We]], liow often did you see Mary Price ?
Mr. Lee. Weli. we only really remained friends of Mary Price's
Av]ien we came to Wasliington and knew very few people.
Mr. Stripling. How many times would you saj^ that you saw Mary
Price ?
Mr. Lee. I have no idea. sir.
Mr. Stripling. Ten times ?
Mr, Lee. I sliould think at least tliat.
Mr. Stripling. Ten times. From the conversation tliat you had
witli Mary Price, would you gatlier tliat slie miglit be a Communist?
Mr. Lee. I really would not care to say, sir. I know that she had
very lilieral views, but you would not say she was a Communist.
Mr. Stripling. Did 3'ou make any effort to determine whetlier she
was a Communist?
Mr. Lee. No, sir; I assumed slie was not.
Mr. Stripling. Wliat otlier friends did you have in Washington
beside Mary Price?
Mr. Lee. I had a great many friends in Washington as we stayed
tliere longer and met more people.
Mr. Stripling. Do you Icnow" Donald X. Wheeler ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. You have known him a long time ?
Mr. Lee. I have known him since 1935.
Mr. Stripling. Did you go to school together?
Mr. Lee. We first met on the boat going to England in 1935.
Mr. Stripling. Did he work in the OSS?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. When did he enter OSS?
Mr. Lee. I think
Mr. Stripling. OSS employment.
Mr. Lee. I thinly lie entered OSS employment, I think, in the very
beginning of the COI, wliich was tlie predecessor organization.
Mr. Stripling. Did lie precede you?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir ; he did.
Mr. Stripling. While he was in OSS, were you closely associated
with him?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever see him?
Mr. Lee. Oli, yes ; I tliought you meant in a business way.
Mr. Stripling. Did you see liim socially?
Mr. Lee. Yes; I saw him socially.
Ml'. Stripling. Where is he now?
Mr. Lee. He is on the west coast, in Washington, I believe. I thinlc
lie lias bought a farm there.
Mr. Stripling. Is Don Wlieeler a memlier of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Lee. I do not believe so, sir, but I do not know.
Mr. Stripling. Did your conversations Avitli him — did you ever de-
termine whetlier or not lie ]iad Communist views?
Mr. Lee. Donald Wheeler was a very argumentative individual, who
would usuaHy take tlie opposite side of whatever was the prevailing
opinion in any group, so sometimes he took left-wing views, and some-
times very conservative ones usually for tlie pleasure of arguing.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 757
Mr. Stripling. Did he ever tell you that he belonged to three organi-
zations which the Attorney General said were subversive organi-
zations?
Mr. Lee. No, sir ; he never did.
Mr. Stripling. He admitted, Mr. Chairman, before the Civil Serv-
ice Commission, February 12, 1942, that he was a member of the Amer-
ican League for Peace and Democracy, the Washington Committee to
Aid China, and the Washington Bookshop, all of which were Commu-
nist front organizations, and so found by the Attorney General.
Were j^ou ever active in the Washington Committee to Aid China ?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. But vou were not aware that Mr. Wheeler belonged
to these Communist front organizations?
Mr. Lee. I do not believe I was. sir : no.
Mr. Stripling. You never furnished any information to Marv
Price?
Mr. Lee. No, sir. Nor to any other unauthorized person.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever hear of World Tourist?
]\Ir. Lee. I do not think so ; no.
Mr. Stripling. You did not know that that was an official Soviet
agency ?
Mr. Lee. As I said. I do not belieA^e I have ever heard of it.
Mr. Stripling. You did not know that Mr. Golos was connected
with it?
Mr. Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Is there any statement that you want to make to
the committee at this time in connection Avith the testimony that has
been received ?
]Mr. Lee. There is only one request that I have to make of the com-
mittee at this time. I would appreciate it if the committee would put
in the record of this hearing a telegram which was received, dated
August 5, from IMr. O. C. Doering, who is one of General Donovan's
officers and the executive officer of OSS, and my immediate superior.
I had hoped that I miglit know sufficiently in advance when I was
to testify so that Mr. Doering could be present. Pie has requested
an opportunity to testify, and I believe that General Donovan would
like to testify.
Mr. Stripling. Just a moment. You have a telegram?
Mr. Lee. I have a telegram ; yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Is that Otto C. Doering of Chicago?
Mr. Lee. He lived in Chicago at one time — from Wisconsin.
Mr, MuNDT. Is that the Mr. Doering who used to be with Sears,
Eoebuck ?
JNIr. Lee. Well, that may be his father. This Mr. Doering lias
been
Mr. MuNDT. I know an Otto C. Doering who was vice president at
one time of Sears, Roebuck.
Mr. Lee. That is the name, sir. and this is Otto C. Doering, Jr.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Lee. when the telegram Avas received I talked
to you about it, did I not ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
758 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Did I not suggest to you to have Mr. Doering come
here ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. And sit with you or not as your counsel ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir. I explained, sir, that Mr. Doering was in Wis-
consin and I would try to get him heie if I could be told sufficiently
in advance.
Mr. Stripling. But we suggested that you bring him here.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir; but not without a date certain having been set.
You may recall, Mr. Stripling, that I also wrote the committee asking,
if possible, to be given 48 hours notice so that I could get Mr. Doering
here.
Mr. Stripling. Well, you had, I believe, 4 days after you were sub-
penaed to appear.
Mr. Lee. No ; I talked with you, Mr. Stripling, and you said that on
9 : 30 Monday morning you would tell me when to appear.
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Lee. On 9 : 30 INIonday morning. I believe, I was told to appear
at 2 o'clock, and then it was far too late to get Mr. Doering present.
Mr. Stripling. But you were subpenaed to appear on Thursday of
last week.
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. And you appear now on Tuesday. I mean, you
had sufficient time to get Mr. Doering here.
Mr. Lee. For all I know, Mr. Stripling, I might not have been heard
for weeks.
Mr. Stripling. But you did not bring ]Mr. Doering here.
The Chairman. Well, I think that is a little beside the point.
Mr. Stripling. Yes, I agree; but I want the record to show that
I suggested that he bring Mr. Doering here and sit with him and act
as his counsel.
The Chairman. Would you like that in the record ?
Mr. Lee. I would like it in the record, and I would like to say what
Mr. Stripling has said — Mr. Doering is on vacation, and I tlid not
want to ask him to come here until a date certain had been fixed, and
no date certain has been fixed for him to be present.
Mr. MuNDT. Is this telegram in response to a communication that
you made to Mr. Doering?
Mr. Lee. No, sir. I informed Mr. Doering on the telephone of
what had happened.
Mr. MuNDT. You talked with him on the telephone ?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. And it is after that telepho'iie call that he sent you this
wire ?
Mr. Lee. That is right. He did not send it to me. He sent it to the
chairman.
The Chairman. Without objection it will be placed in the record at
this point.
(The telegram referred to reads as follows :)
Washington, D. C, August 5, 19^8.
Hon. .T. Parnkll Thomas,
Chairman, House Un-American Affairs Committee,
Old House Office Building, Washington. D. C:
While on vacation in north Wisconsin I have just seen newspaper accounts
regarding Duncan Lee. As former executive officer of OSS I vrould be glad to
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 759
testify before your committee regarding Lee. I want to say now that I knew
his work during the war and I completely belieA'e in his loyalty to the OSS and
to his country. I have absolute faith In his innocence of the charges made
against liim by Elizabeth Bentley.
O. C. DOERING,
Care of Donovan, Leisure, Netvton, Lomhard d Irvine, Washington, D. C.
INIr. Hebeut. Where is Mary Price today?
INIr. Lee. I do not know, sir. I saw somewhere in the newspapers
where she was in North Carolina.
]\Ir. Hebert. Is that the same Mary Price who was organizing the
Wallace- for-President group down there?
Mr. Lee. I assume so, sir.
Mr. Hep^ert. And Mr. Wallace has been backed, or rather has been
taken in completely by the Communist Part}^ ?
Mr. Lee. Is that a question, sir?
Mr. Heber'^v I will make that as a statement. I will not ask you
that. I just wanted to establish that, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. I think that is well established, and you do not have
to reestablish it.
]Mr. Hebert. I just want to establish that the same Mary Price —
if it is the same individual
Mr. Stripling. It is.
Mr. Hebert. It is the same individual ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr, Hebert. And INIr. Lee knew Miss Price and failed to recognize
in her her Communist leanings and tendencies.
The Chairman. Do you have any more questions ?
Mr. Stripling. No.
The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Lee.
Mr. Lee. Thank you.
The Chairman. The next witness will be who? Mr. Robert T.
Miller III, and we will recess until 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 05 p. m., the subcommittee recessed until 2 p. m.
this day, at which time the subcommittee merged into the full com-
mittee.)
HEARINGS REGARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
TUESDAY, AUGUST 10, 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington, D. C.
The committee met, pursuant to call, at 2 p. m., in the caucus room,
Old House Office Building, Hon. J. Parnell Thomas (chairman)
presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives J. Parnell Thomas
(chairman), Karl E. Mundt, John McDowell, Richard M. Nixon, and
F. Edward Hebert.
Staff members present: Robert E, Stripling, chief investigator;
Louis J. Russell, William A. Wlieeler, investigators ; Benjamin Mandel,
director of research ; and A. S. Poore, editor, for the committee.
The Chairman. The meeting will come to order.
The record will show that those present are Mr. Mundt, Mr. Mc-
Dowell, Mr. Nixon, Mr. Hebert, and Mr. Thomas, a quorum of the
full committee.
INIr. Stripling, the first witness.
' Mr. Stripling. William Ludwig Ullmann.
The Chairman. Mr. Ullmann, will you take the stand. Raise your
right hand.
Mr. Ullmann, do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about
to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Ullmann. I do.
The Chairman. Sit down.
The Chair would like to announce that subpenas were served on
Mikhail Samarin and ItIs wife at 11 : 55 this morning.
Proceed, Mr. Stripling.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM LUDWIG ULLMANN
Mr. Stripling. Will you state your full name, please.
Mr. Ullmann. William Ludwig Ullmann.
• Mr. Stripling. When and where were you born, Mr. Ullmann?
Mr. Ullmann. I was born in Springfield, Mo., 1908. I would like
to submit a statement, if I may.
Mr. Stripling. Just a moment. Are you represented by counsel?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. ^Vlio is your counsel ?
Mr. Ullmann. Mr. Rein.
761
762 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Will you identify yourself?
Mr. Rein. My name is David Rein.
Mr. Stripling. And your address in Washington?
Mr. Rein. 1105 K Street.
Mr. Stripling. You say you have a statement?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, before any action is taken on the
statement, I would like to ask the witness certain preliminary ques-
tions.
The Chairman, Without objection it is so ordered.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Ullmann, would j^ou outline to the committee
any Federal employment you have had.
Mr. Ullmann. Yes ; I came to work for the Government first in 1935
in the spring. I worked with the NRA, the National Recovery Ad-
ministration.
Mr. Stripling. The year 1935 ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. How long did you remain there ?
Mr. Ullmann. I worked there for only a few months, until mid-
summer, when the Supreme Court decision came out regarding NRA.
Then I went to work for the Resettlement Administration.
Mr. Stripling. When did you go with Resettlement ?
Mr. Ullmann. In either June or July of 19P>5. I stayed with the
Resettlement Administration until February 1939.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you go then ?
Mr. Ullmann. From the Resettlement Administration I trans-
ferred to the Treasury Department, where I stayed until I resigned
from the Federal Government in 1947, in March, with the exception
of a period that I was on military leave and was in the Army.
Mr. Stripling. What branch of the Treasury were you employed
in?
Mr. Ullmann. I was employed in the Division of Monetary Re-
search.
Mr. Stripling. From whom did you obtain your employment?
Mr. Ullman. I applied for a position to Mr. Harr}^ White.
Mr. Stripling. Harry Dexter White?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Do you recall who you gave as references when you
applied for that position?
Mr. Ullmann. I don't recall : no, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you give Lauchlin Currie as a reference ?
Mr. Ullmann. I don't recall, sir.
Mr. Stripling. You say you took leave of absence ?
Mr. Ullmann. Military leave.
Mr. Stripling. Military leave of absence. When did you take that ?
Mr. Ullmann. In October 1942 and it extended until Septembey
1945.
Mr. Stripling. What branch of the service were you in ?
Mr. Ullmann. As an enlisted man I was in the Antiaircraft. As an
officer I was in the Air Corps.
Mr. Stripling. Would you outline your military history?
Mr. Ullmann. I was drafted in October 1942, and served as an
enlisted man until January 1943, when I went to officer candidate
school. I graduated from officer candidate school in iVpril 1943 with
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 763
the commission of second lieutenant. I was assigned to Wright Field,
Materiel Command. Dayton. Ohio.
Mr. Stripling. Whatwas your assignment at Wright Field? What
were your duties there?
Mr. TjLL^irANN, I was only there for a f eAv days and then I was trans-
ferred to Washington.
JNIr. Stripling. AVliere were you stationed in Washington?
Mr. Ullmann. I was stationed at the headquarters of the Air Corps,
the ^Materiel and Service DiAdsion.
Mr. Stripling. How long did a'ou remain there ?
Mv. Ullmann. For the duration of the period I was in the Army.
Mr. Stripling. What was your highest rank?
]\Ir. Ullmann. Major.
Mr. Stripling. When you left the Army you were a major?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. You were assigned to the Air Corps. Were you
stationed at the Pentagon?
Mr. Ullmann. I was stationed at the Pentagon. That was my
headquarters. I traveled occasionally.
Mr. Stripling. How old were you in 1942 ?
Mr. l^LLMANN. In 1942 I was 34.
Mr. Stripling. Did you receive any deferments when you were in
this first employment?
Mr. Ullmann. I did.
Mr. Stripling. Who obtained tliose deferments for you?
Mr. Ullmann. The administrative assistant to the Secretary. If I
recall, Mr. Norman Thompson.
Mr. Stripling. How many deferments did you receive?
Mv. Ullmann. I don't recall exactly. I think two.
Mr. Stripling. Were a'ou married at the time?
Mr. Ui'LMANN. I was not.
Mr. Stripling. Are you mari-ied now ?
Mr. Ullmann. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Wlien vou resided in Washington where did you
live?
Mr. Ullmann. Well, since 1938 I lived at 5515 Thirtieth Street NW.
Mr. Stripling. Is that the home of Nathan Gregory Silvermaster ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Nathan Gregory Silvermaster?
Mr. ULLiMANN. Yes. I do.
Mr. Stripling. How long have you known Nathan Gregory Silver-
master ?
]Mr. Ullmann. Oh, I have known him since 1935, as I recall.
Mr. Stripling. Was he responsible for getting you employment
in the Federal Government ?
Mr. Ullmann. No, he wasn't. I was in the Federal Government
before he was here.
Mr. Stripling. Did he ever assist you in getting any position with
the Federal Government ?
Mr. Ullmann. Not that I know of.
The Chairman. Is your answer "No" or "Yes" to that question —
not, "Not that I laiow of."
Mr. Ullmann. I would say "No."
The Chairman. You would say, "No." All right.
7.64 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. MuNDT, Mr. Stripling, have you ascertained his present resi-
dence ?
Mr. Stripling. No ; I was going to get to that.
. Would you state your present residence?
Mr. Ullmann. Harvey Cedars, N. J.
Mr. Stripling. Do you live with Mr. Silvermaster ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes; I do.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Ullmann, do you know Elizabeth T. Bentley?
• Mr. Ullmann. Well, for reasons stated in the prepared statement,
I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that it might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Would you stand up, please. Do you recognize
this woman standing here as Elizabeth T. Bentley?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Stripling. You refuse to state whether you ever saw her before ?
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Stripling, he said he just refused to answer the
question. On what ground ?
Mr. Stripling. He just refused to answer.
Mr. Ullmann. On the ground that it might incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Ullmann, are you a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Ullmann. For the same reason
Mr. Stripling. State your reason.
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. You mean you were a major in the Army attached
to the Air Corps and you refuse to state whether or not you are a
member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Ullmann. I have refused.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever a member of the Communist Party
at any time ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the same ground.
The Chairman. State the ground, please, in each case.
Mr. Ullmann. On the ground that it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Striplinq. Did you know Jacob N. Golos ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did Mr. Golos ever give you a camera ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. What was the last question ?
Mr. Stripling. I asked if Mr. Golos ever gave him a camera.
The Chairman. How would that incriminate you, the fact that you
were getting a camera ? How would that incriminate you ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question, sir.
The Chairman. Did anybody give you a camera ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you assist Nathan Gregory Silvermaster in pho-
tographing (Tovernment documents in the basement of his home at
5515 Thirtieth Street?
Mr. Ullmann. That point is covered in the statement I prepared.
Mr. Stripling. Will you answer the question ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 765
Mr. Ullmann. I did not assist in taking any pictures of Govennnent
documents.
Mr. Stripling. You did not assist in taking pictures of any Govern-
ment documents ?
Mr. Ullmann. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. In the basement of Nathan Gregory Silvermaster's
home ?
Mr. Ullmann. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. Did you exQr furnish any documents to Nathan
Gregory Silvermaster?
Mr. Ullmann. Did I ever furnish any documents ?
Mr. Stripling. Any documents to Nathan Gregory Silvermaster.
Mr. Ullmann. No.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever furnish any information to Nathan
Gregory Silvermaster obtained in your official capacity in the Army?
Mr. Ullmann. No.
Mr. Stripling. Are you a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Elizabeth T. Bentley ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did 3^011 ever furnish any information to Elizabeth
T. Bentley?
Mr. Ullmann. No.
The Chairman. I would like to ask one question. In this statement,
you call Miss Bentley a liar, I believe. How do you know Miss Bentley ?
Mr. Ullmann. Just by the statements tliat have been made before
this committee.
The Chairman. Is that the person who made the statement before
this committee that you saw a few seconds ago ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. JNIcDowELL. On Avhat ground?
Mv. Ullmann. On the ground that it might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. But you do say that Miss Bentley is a liar. How
do you come to that conclusion ?
Mr. Ullmann. I have read the newspapers.
The Chairman. And you saw Miss Bentley's pictures in the news-
paper too, didn't you ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That is true ?
Mv. Ullmann. Yes.
The Chairman. All right. If you saw Miss Bentley's pictures in
the newspapers, is that the person whose pictures were in the news-
papers ?
Mr. Ullmann. As far as I can tell from newspaper pictures, that
is the person whose picture was in the newspapers.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Nixon. INIr. Ullmann, in answer to Mr. Stripling's last ques-
tion you said, "No." The question was: Did you ever furnish any
Government documents to Miss Bentley ? You answered "No."
Obviously, that means that you know Miss Bentley. Is that true ?
Mr, Ullmann, No ; I don't follow the reasoning.
766 ' COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr, Nixon. You gave a categorical answer "No" to his question as
to whether or not you had furnished any Government documents to
Miss Bentley. You said, "No."
Well, in order to give the answer "No" or "Yes" to that question, you
would obviously have to know Miss Bentley. Is that correct?
Mr. Ullmann. No.
(Mr. Ullmann conferred with Mr. Rein.)
Mr. Nixojsr. Did j'ou give any Government documents to Miss
Bentley ?
Mr. Ullmann. I replied.
Mr, Nixon. What is the answer?
Mr. Ullmann. No.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know Miss Bentley ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground
Mr. Nixon. How w^oulcl you know whether or not you have ever
given any Government documents to Miss Bentley unless you knew
her?
Mr. Ullmann. Because I haven't given Government documents to
any unauthorized person.
Mr. Nixon. Your answer to the question is that you haven't given
Government documents to any person; is that correct?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. You know^ you haven't given any Government docu-
ments to Miss Bentley ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. McDowell. The witness answered Mr. Stripling's question:
Did you ever assist Mr. Silvermaster in photographing Government
documents? Your answer was "No." Is that correct ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. McDowell. Did you ever photograph any Government docu-
ments yourself, not assisting anyone ?
Mr. Ullmann. I did not.
Mr. Hebert. Miss Bentley, will you rise and stand where the witness
can see you ?
Will you rise, Mr. Ullmann ? You see a lady standing there, don't
you ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. You know her by sight right now. You are looking
at her. Did you ever give that lady there any Government documents ?
Mr. Ullmann. I did not.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Stripling, proceed.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Ulhnann, did you ever furnish Bela, or other-
wise known as William, Gold a camera?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground
that it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Was it a Leica, L-e-i-c-a, camera?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. How many cameras did you have while you were
in the Army ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 767
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever loan or permit Nathan Gregory Silver-
master to use one of your cameras for the purpose of photographing
Government documents '?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Steipling. AVhen you obtained a commission in the Army, who
did you give as 3'our references?
Mr. Ullmann. I don't recall, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Lauchlin Currie of the White House ?
]\Ir. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. STRiPLiN(i. Do you know Mr. Irving S. Friedman, United
States Treasury Department ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that cjuestion on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
jSIr. Stripling. Do you know JNIr. A. G. Silverman. United States
Army Air Forces Materiel Command, Munitions Building?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mv. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, the names that I have mentioned,
according to the Army records, were given by Mr. Ullmanu, as
references.
The Chairman. What was that, Mr. Stripling?
Mr. Stripling. Those individuals were given by him as references
and they recommended him for receiving a commission in the Army.
The Chairman. Did you get that from the official records?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Ullmann, you executed Form 57 on April 4, 1046. On that
form you gave as your references Lauchlin Currie, International De-
velopment Co., 19 Rector Street, New York Cit}'. Is that correct?
iVIr. Ullmann. I don't recall.
Mr. Stripling. You also gave Miss Henrietta Klotz, 2.85 Madison
Avenue, New York City, assistant to ex-Secretary of the Treasury
Morgenthau. Is that correct?
Mr. Ullmann. I don't recall.
Mr. Stripling. You also gave Mr. Harry W. Blair, Tower Build-
ing, Washington, D. C. Is that correct?
Mr. Ullmann. I don't recall that.
Mr. Stripling. You don't recall whom you gave as references in
1946 on a Form 57?
]Mr. Ullmann. I don't.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever set up or place in operation any pho-
tographic equipment in the basement at the premises located at 5515
Thirtieth Street NW., in Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I ask that the witness be permitted
to read his statement at this point.
The Chairman. All right. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Go ahead, Mr. Witness, and read your statement.
Mr. Ullmann. My name is William Ludwig Ullmann. I was born
in Springfield, Mo., in 1908. I was educated at Philips Exeter Acad-
768 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
emy, at Harvard College, and at Drury College. I received a degree
of bachelor of arts from Drury College in 1930. I received a degree
of master of business administration from Harvard University in
1932.
From 1932 to 1934, I worked in my father's real estate office in
Springfield, Mo., and also organized a wholesale tennis-supply busi-
ness in the same town. In the fall of 1934 I went to work for R. H.
Macy & Co. in New York. I came to Washington in April of 1935 to
work for the NKA. I later worked for the Resettlement Adminis-
tration, and in February 1939 I transferred to the Division ,of Mone-
tary Research in the Treasury Department. I worked there until
1947, with the exception of the period from October 1942 to Septem-
ber 1945, when I was on military leave. I went to officer candidate
school and was commissioned in April 1943. I held the rank of major
when I left the service.
The scurrilous charges made against me by Miss Bentley bef.ore
this committee are false. I state categorically that she is a liar. I
am and always have been a loyal American citizen. I never have be-
trayed any confidence reposed in me by my Government. I am not
and never have been a spy or an agent of a foreign government. I have
never photographed any Government documents.
In view of the fact that the charges against me are under investiga-
tion before a grand jury, and since this committee is ixot, m my opin-
ion, a tribunal before which a citizen may adequately defend himself,
I shall, on advice of counsel, refuse to answer any questions relating
to charges against me under the constitutional right against self-
incrimination guaranteed by the fifth amendment.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Ullmann, while you were in the Air Corps did
you have access to any information regarding the B-29 ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. That is all the questions I have at this time.
The Chairman. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Ullmann, you say the charges Miss Bentley made
are false.
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. One of the charges she made was that you gave her
secret Government documents. You say tliat charge is false; is that
correct ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Another charge she made was that you photographed
Government documents. Is that charge false?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Another charge she made was that you helped set up
a ])hotographic laboratory in Mr. Silvermaster's home. Is that charge
false?
INIr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Ullmann, you realize that by giving answers to
the first two questions, which you have categorically stated those
charges are false, and by refusing to answer the third question, you
have left an implication which is pretty clear that you cannot give
the answer "No" to the third question and not incriminate yourself.
You recognize that; do you?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 769
Mr. Ullmanx. No, I don't recognize that.
]Mr. Nixon. You recognize, in other words, that you can waive
the right of self-incrimination by going into the subject at hand.
Mr. Ullmann. By going into what^
Mr. Nixon. By going into the charges that are made. You have
made the categorical statement that all charges are false. I have
been questioning 3^011 about some of those charges. Some of those
charges — you willingly gave the answer "No" to some of the charges
made. On other charges you say, "I refuse to answer on the ground
that the answer I might give might be self-incriminatory." That
obviously casts an implication upon your statement that all these
charges are false. Do you still maintain that all these charges are
false ?
Mr. Ullmann. I do; yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. In other words. Miss Bentley's charge is false that you
helped set up a photogiaphic laboratory in Mr. Silvermaster's base-
ment ; is that true ?
Mr. Ullmann. That statement I refuse to answer on the ground
that it might be self -incriminating.
Mr. Nixon. Miss Bentley's charge is false that you gave her confi-
dential information; is that true?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Miss Bentley's charge is false that you helped photo-
graph Government documents?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Her charge is false that you orally gave her informa-
tion on Government business; is that true?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. You have never talked to Miss Bentley ; is that true?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. Nixon. You never discussed any Government business with
Miss Bentley; is that correct?
Mr. Ullmann. That is a broad term — any Government business.
Is that your question, sir?
Mr. Nixon. Did you ever discuss your work with Miss Bentley
at all?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self -incriminating.
Mr. Nixon. You are with Mr. Silvermaster at the present time in
New Jersey ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. You lived with him in Washington previous to that
time ; is that correct ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
IMr. Nixon. In the basement of that home in Washington was a
photographic laboratory; is that correct?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. Nixon. That is all at this time.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell ?
Mr. McDoW'ELL. Did you ever see Miss Bentley at the Silvermaster
home ?
80408 — 48 18
770 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. McDowell. Were you ever in the basement of the house, of
the Silvermaster home, with Miss Bentley ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self -incriminating.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Ullmann, do you have any knowledge of the
technique of photography at all?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self -incriminating.
Mr. McDoAVELL. Mr. Ullmann, can you play tennis ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground
that [Laughter].
Mr. McDowell. That is all, JNIr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
jVIr. ]\IuNDT. In your statement, Mr. Ullmann, j-ou state that you are
now and, I believe, alwa^^s have been — "I am and always have been a
loyal American citizen." Do you believe a man can be a loyal Ameri-
can citizen and a member of the Communist Party at one and the same
time?
]Mr. Ullmann. That is a question I haven't considered, Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Ml'ndt. Consider it now and give me an answer.
(The witness conferred with his attorney.)
Mr. NixoN. Let the record show, when the witness consults with
counsel, that he ie consulting with counsel.
Mr. Ullmann. I just don't feel competent to give an answer to the
question.
Mr. JNIiNDT. Even after consulting with your very competent coun-
*sel?
Mr. ITllmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mundt. In other words, as a retired major of the United States
Army, a man who has been entrusted with a lot of high governmental
responsibilities, as a mature citizen and a graduate of two colleges,
you don't consider yourself competent to declare whether or not a man
can be a loyal American citizen and a member of the Communist
Party at one and the same time?
Mr. Ullmann. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Mundt. How long did you live in the Silvermaster home while
vou were in Washington?
Mr. Ullmann. Ten years, approximately.
Mr. Mundt. Ten years. During the course of those 10 years, were
you ever in the basement of the Silvermaster home ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground of
possible self-incrimination.
Mr. Mundt. What was there so mysterious and incriminating about
the basement of the Silvermaster home that you dare not admit that
in the course of 10 years you ever once entered the basement?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. Mundt. Tliat is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chaii;man. Mr. Hebert.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 771
Mr. Hebekt. Mr. Ullniann, in your prepared statement, which you
read, you say :
In view of the fact that the charges against me are under investigation before
a grand jury —
by that you don't mean to imply that you ha\e been given a no true
bill by the New York grand jury before whom you a})peared?
Mr. Ullmann. No true bill '.
Mr. Hebekt. I mer*?it by that statement you do not mean to imply
that you have been investigated and absolved of any wrongdoing?
Mr. Ullmanx. I don't mean to imply that ; no sir.
Mr. Hebekt. Because, as a matter of fact, the New York grand
jury is only in recess, as I understand it, and at any time can return a
true bill against you for violation of the Federal espionage laws.
Is that correct ?
^Ir. Ullmann. I gather it is; yes, sir. The statement says "are
under investigation."
]\Ir. Hebekt. It is an open cas'e right now ; it is not a closed case.
That is what I am trying to get at.
Mr. Uli,maxx. As far as I know, it is still an open case.
Mr. Hebekt. It is still an open case ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes.
]\Ir. Hebekt. And the mere fact that you have appeared before them
does not indicate that up to this time they have cleared you or given
3'ou a clean bill of health ?
]\ir. Ullmann, That is my impression.
Mr. Hebekt. As a matter of fact, it is true ?
Mr, Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebekt. Wh}' is it that you will answer some questions and
refuse to answer others, standing on your constitutional right of self-
incrimination %
Mr, Ullmann. Well, I refuse to answer that question on the ground
of self-incrimination.
Mr. Hebekt. You refuse to answer it on the ground of self-incrim-
ination i'
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir,
Mr. Hebekt. I ask you, as a man who has given his educational
background, as a former Army officer, a major in the Army — and I
think you are perfectly competent to answer this question, because it
is an opinion, and I ask your opinion — do you think that any individual
can belong to a group or an organization dedicated to overthrow the
American Government by force and violence and at the same time be
a loyal American citizen \
Mr. Ullmann. No, sir ; I don't.
Mr. Hebekt. You do not?
Mr. Ullmann. That is correct.
Mr. Hebekt. Therefore, if the Communist Party is an organization
dedicated to the overthrow of the American Government by force and
violence, you could not be a member of that party and be a loyal
American at the same time?
JMr. Ullmann. That is correct,
Mr. Hebekt. You have said in your statement that you always have
been a loyal American.
772 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Ullmann. I have.
Mr. Hebert. Then, have you ever been a member of the Commvmist
Party?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. Hebert. Suppose you justify that answer in your own words.
I have put the basis for the question. You have answered it. Now,
you answer me. You say you are a loyal American citizen. There-
fore, if you are a loyal American citizen, and I presume you are a sane
and rational man— therefore, if you are a loyal American citizen, you
could not have been a member of the Communist Party at the same
time. Now, were you a member of the Communist Party i
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. Hebert. Are you a loyal American citizen?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes; I am.
Mr. Hebert. Why don't you stand o]i your constitutional rights
there and say that might be self -incriminating?
Mr. Ullmann. Is that an official question?
Mr. Hebert. Why, certainly it is an official question. I am trying
to probe your mental thoughts at this time, if possible.
Mr. I^llmann. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Hebert. You refuse to say why you defend your American cit-
izenship on the ground that it might incriminate you?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. You realize, Mr. Ullmann, that you are absolutely
within your rights to stand upon that answer?
]Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. As you have done. You realize also that you are sub-
ject to the laws of perjury if you lie at this time ?
Mr, Ullm\nn. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. For the purpose of establishing the veracity of the
witness, Mr. Chairman, I again ask Miss Bentley to rise.
Miss Bentley.
(Miss Bentley rises.)
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Ullmann, I again ask you to rise.
(Mr. Ullmann rises.)
Mr. Hebert. This lady standing there — have you ever known her,
talked to her, had any conversation with her, discussed any matters
with her relating to your Government employment, discussed any
matters of the Soviet Union and its relationship to America ; have you
had any relationship with her under the name of Elizabeth T. Bent-
ley, under the name of Helen Grant, under the name of Helen John-
son, or under the simple name of Helen?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
Mr. Hebert. Now, remain standing. Miss Bentley, please.
I want to establish this :
Have you ever given to that lady, in regard to whom you just re-
fused to answer the previous question on grounds of possible self-in-
crimination— have you ever handed into that lady's hands any pack-
ages, any documents of an official nature of the Government for trans-
mittal to other people?
Mr. Ullmann. I have not.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 773
Mr. HUBERT. You have not.
Have you ever paid to that lady standing there any dues of the
Communist Party?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground of
possible self-incrimination.
Mr. Hebert. The record speaks for itself, Mr. Chairman. That is
all.
The Chairman. I would like to ask a couple of questions.
Mr. Ullmann, you were interrogated by agents of the FBI, were you
not ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Didn't you tell the FBI that you had been a mem-
ber of the Communist Party ?
]\Ir. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
The Chairman. Well, we really don't have to have the answer to
that question because the record may speak for itself. But didn't you
tell the FBI that you had been a member of the Communist JParty?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question, ]\Ir. Chairman.
The Chairman. Didn't you tell the FBI agents that you did have
photographic equipment ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
The Chairman. Supposing I said that the FBI had told me that
you had photographic equipment. What would you say to that ?
Just a moment, Mr. Counsel. Let the witness answer. Go ahead,
Mr. Witness.
Mr. Ullmann. There is nothing to say to that. If they told you,
they told you.
The Chairman. Would you say they told me the truth or not the
truth ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
The Chairman. Did the FBI ask you whether or not you had been
in the basement of the Silvermaster house ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self-incriminating.
The Chairman. In your statement you claim you are a very loyal
American. In fact, you use the words "loyal American citizen." Don't
you think that a loyal American citizen would be very willing to an-
swer the question: Are you a member of the Connnunist Party?
Let's look at it aside from the legal standpoint ; let's look at it from
the common-sense standpoint. You were a major in the Army and
fought for your country and here you are being asked whether or not
you are a member of the Communist Party. Don't 3^ou think as a
loyal American citizen that it is your duty to answer that question ?
Mr. Ullmann. Mr. Chairman, my statement has given the grounds
on which I am standing on my constitutional rights on these questions.
The Chairman. I just do not see how the question — I might see
how the question of constitutional right bears on this question of com-
munism, but on the question of whether or not you possessed a camera,
or whether or not you were in the basement of Mr. Silvermaster's home,
I just do not see how you can bring in that constitutional question
there, because I don't see how it would incriminate you.
774 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
In what way would it incriminate you ?
Siipposins we ask you : Have you ever been in tlie basement of this
building:? Would that incriminate you?
Mr. Ullmann. It might, sir.
The Chairmaist. Suppose we asked you : Have you ever been in the
basement of your own home? "Would that incriminate you?
Mr. Ullmann. It might.
The Chairman. It might. That is just the reason why you won't
answer the question in regard to the Silvermaster home because you
know what was done in the basement of that house. There was photo-
graphic equipment down there, and you know it better than anyone
else in this room, and that is why you don't answer the question.
Mr. McDowell. How long have you lived with Mr. Silvennaster in
New Jersey ?
Mr. Ullmann. Since May of 1947.
Mr. McDowell. That is a little over a year,
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Are you two fellows maintaining any photographic
equipment in the basement there, too?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
it might tend to be self -incriminating.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have a Reserve commission as a major in
the Army?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir ; I do.
Mr. Stripling. You still have it?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. But you won't answer as to whether or not you are
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr, Ullmann. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Ullmann, as a loyal American citizen, j^ou, of
course, believe H is essential that we do everything we can to protect
the security of the country from espionage activities, do you not ?
Mr. Ullimann. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. You, of course, have read in the newspapers the charges
Miss Bentle}^ made, have you not ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes, sir,
Mr. Nixon. If those charges are true in regard to espionage activi-
ties, they would constitute a considerable clanger to the country, would
they not? If they are true. You said they are false, I unclerstand.
But I am asking you that, assuming what she said was true, it would
constitute a danger to this country, would it not?
Mr. Ullmann, Yes, sir,
Mr. Nixon. So, a conunittee of Congress, the courts, all the agencies
that have to do with the protection and securitj^ of this country, should
do everything they coulcl to establish whether or not those charges are
true or false. You understand that, can j-ou not?
Mr. Ullman. The courts; yes.
Mr. Nixon. In other words, you believe we should attempt to estab-
lish— that it should be estr.blished whether those charges are true or
false by some agency of the Government?
Mr. Ullmann. By some agency.
Mr. Nixon. Now, having in mind the fact then that it is necessary
for the security of the country that the truth of those charges, all of
them, be established, or the falsity of those charges, I point to your
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 775
istatement in which 3^011 have stated, in attempting to help this com-
mittee in findincr the truth or falsity of those charges, you state cate-
gorically : "The charges made by Miss Bentley are false."
Xo^y, so that we can have the record clear, will you please take up
each indiA'idual charge that you are referring to when you say that
the charges made by Miss Bentley are false. Which charges did she
make that are false?
Mr. Ullmaxn. That is in my statement.
Mr. Nixon. No; in your statement you say: "The charges made by
Miss Bentley are false."
Mr. Ullmann". The charges made against me are false.
Mr. Nixox. The statements made by INIiss Bentley against you per-
sonally are false?
Mr. Ullmanx. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. You mean all the charges made by Miss Bentley against
3'ou are false ? Is that correct ?
Mr. Ullmann. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Including the charge that you are a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Ullmaxx. I had not recognized that as a charge.
Mr. Nixox. I see. Then you do not say that the charge made by
Miss Bentle3' that you were a member of the Communist Party is
false?
Mr. Ullmax^n. I don't say that in this statement.
Mr. NixoN. You don't mean to say that in this statement. All right.
You have said that as far as this statement is concerned — I think it is
essential then that you should point out to the committee what charges
made by Miss Bentley you say are false.
Mr. Ullmaxx. That is written into the statement.
Mr. Nixon. The statement speaks for itself. You just say in the
statement that all the charges are false.
Mr. Ullmax'X^ I say that I never betrayed any confidence reposed in
me by my Government, that I am not and never have been a spy or
an agent of a foreign government, I have never photographed any
Government documents.
Mr. Nixox. Then the only charges made by Miss Bentley that you
by this statement are saying are false are those that you have photo-
graphed Government documents and that you have been a spy and that
you have been disloyal. Those are the charges that you say "are false?
Mr. Ullmann. I say those are false; yes, sir.
Mr. NixoN. By the same token, you are not saying in this state-
ment that the other "charges made by Miss Bentley are false; is that
correct ?
Mr. Ullmax^n. I am not sure I have heard the other charges.
Mr. Nixox. You have already indicated that you did not mean by
this statement that Miss Bentley's charge that you were a member of
the Communist Party was false. The record will speak for itself on
that one.
Now. one of the other charges made by Miss Bentlev was that you
lielped to set up some photographic equipment in the Silvermaster
home. Do you mean by your statement that that charge is false?
Mr. Ullmann. Will you repeat that statement — that I helped to set
up photographic equipment ?
776 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. I want you to understand the question exactly, Mr.
Ullmann, because it is very important to you, as well as to the
committee.
You stated in your statement that all these charges were false that
Miss Bentley made about you. Now, we have gone into some of the
charges and you have indicated what you thought about some of them.
Now, one of the charges made, and one of the serious charges made,
by Miss Bentley that was carried in the newspapers — and I am sure that
if you read the newspapers, you read this one — was that you helped
to set up photographic equipment in the basement of the Silvermaster
home in Washington.
Do you mean by this statement that that charge is false?
Mr. Ullmann. 1 have not recognized that as a charge.
Mr. Nixon. In other words, by your statement you are not indicating
that that charge is false ?
Mr, Ullmann. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. That is all.
Mr. MuNDT. I am interested. Mr. Ullmann, you did not consider
the statement by Miss Bentley that you are a member of the Com-
munist Party as a charge. You didn't consider that a charge.
Mr. Ullmann. That is correct.
Mr. MuNDT. Why don't you consider that a charge? Don't you
feel it is a charge against a man's loyalty to be labeled as a Com-
munist ?
Mr. Ullmann. I had not recognized that membership in the Com-
munist Party has as yet been considered an unlawful act.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you realize that under the decision of the judiciary
in the State of New York that it is considered libelous per se to charge
a man as being a Communist unless it can be substantiated?
Mr. Ullmann. I didn't know of that decision.
Mr. IMuNDT. That is a decision. Knowing that decision, then, do you
not consider it a charge to be labeled as a Communist ?
Mr. Ullmann. Well, if that is the decision
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr, MuNDT. I am sure his counsel is familiar with the decision and
I hope he advises him properly.
(Witness again confers with counsel.)
The Chairman. The Chair would like to say to those in the cham-
bers that this is a congressional committee sitting on a very important
matter, that those of you in the audience are the guests of the com-
mittee, and the committee would appreciate just as little applause as
possible. In fact, if you can get along without any applause at all for
one side or the other, we would api^reciate it because we have got a long
way to go and can't possibly finish these hearings this week, and we
just have to rush things along as best we can. We must have order.
Proceed.
Mr. MuNDT. Are you ready to answer the question ?
Mr. Ullmann. That decision of the court I gather still does not make
it a criminal offense to be a member of the Communist Party, and in
this statement I am referring to cliarges as criminal offenses.
]\Ir. INIuNDT. It does make it libelous, per se, to call a man a Com-
munist, if he is not a Communist. INIiss Bentley called you a Com-
munist. That is a charge according to legal interpretation.
Now, do you intend to include that charge in your statement as false?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 777
Mr. Ullmanx. I state here that I am including in my statement
charges of criminal activities.
JVIr. MuNDT. Yon would not consider membership in the Communist
Party in that category ^ .
JNIr. Ullmanx. Would not consider it what?
INIr. INIuNDT. The charge of communism in that category.
Mr. Ullmann. That is right.
]\f r. MuNDT. As a Reserve officer you must know and associate with
several other officers in the Army, is that correct ?
Mr. Ullmann. Not recently.
Mr. ]\IuNDT. Have you any friends who are Reserve officers ?
Mr. Ullmann. I have some; yes, sir.
Mr. jMundt. Among your circle of friends who are Reserve officers,
is it considered unwise to state that they are not members of the
Communist Party ?
]Mr. Ullmann."^ Well
Mr. JMundt. Is that the general attitude of your friends who are
generally Reserve officers?
JNIr. Ullmann. Unwise ? Will you repeat that ? I am sorry.
]\Ir. JMundt. Yes. In your particular group of associates who are
members of the Reserve, do they consider it unwise to declare that
tliey are not members of the Communist Party when asked?
JMr. Ullmann. No.
Mr. JMundt. You are rather an exception to that rule, then, is that
right?
Mr. Ullmann. I guess I am an exception to that rule.
Mr. MuNDT, How do you explain it ?
Mr. Ullmann. In these particular circumstances
Mr. MuNDT. How do you explain that you are an exception to that
rule ?
Mr. Ullmann. Well, as far as I know
JMr. JMundt. What is there in your background that makes you such
an exception to that rule ?
Mr. Ullmann. Well, as far as I know, it happens to be circum-
stances at present.
Mr. JMundt. What circumstances?
JMr. Ullmann. These circumstances.
Mr. Mundt. The circumstances would be much less incriminatory
if you could testify under oath whether or not you were not now and
had never been a member of the Communist Party. You realize that,
do you not ?
Mr. Ullmann. That is your interiDi-etation, I gather.
Mr. Mundt. That is my question. What is your answer?
Mr. Ullmann. No ; I cannot see it
Mr. JMundt. Do you still seem to think that there is something about
membership in the Communist Party which is credible and desirable
and commendable ?
Mr. Ullmann. I do not recall stating anything to that effect.
Mr. Mundt. Well, the implication is to that effect.
Mr. UrxMANN. That is the implication.
Mr. JMundt. Very well. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman, Are there any other members who have any ques-
tions ?
Mr. Stripling.
778 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. No questions.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Ullniann, you indicated a moment ago that member-
ship in the Communist Party was not a crime, which is correct, in-
cidentally, and that thei-efore j^ou did not consider that to be a charge.
Then, obviously, the question and the answer to the question : "Are
you a member of the Communist Party?" could not incriminate you,
could it?
You, yourself, say it is not a crime to be a member of the party.
This committee agrees. Now, I ask you again : Are you a member of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Ullmann. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that
it might tend to degrade and incriminate me.
Mr. Nixon. That is all.
Mr. Stripling. I ask that the witness be reminded that he is to
remain under the authority of the subpena, and we will ask him to
appear again.
Mr. Rein. But he may return to New Jersey?
Mr. Stripling. If you desire, you may be notified through Mr.
Rein.
Mr. Rein. Perhaps you had better notify him directly.
The Chairman. The next witness, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Robert T. Miller.
The Chairman. Mr. Miller. Do you solemnly swear that the testi-
mony you will give before this committee will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Miller. I do, sir.
TESTIMONY or ROBEET T. MILLER
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Miller, will you j^lease state your full name,
please ?
Mr. Miller. Robert Talbot Miller.
Mr. Stripling. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Miller. April 5, 1910, Pittsburgh, Pa.
Mr. Stripling. Will you give the conmiittee a resume of your edu-
cational background?
Mr. Miller. I graduated from Kent School in Connecticut in 1927,
and Princeton University in 1931, and with a master of arts degree
from Princeton University Graduate School in 1932.
Mr. Stripling. And would you also identify your counsel?
Mr. Miller. My counsel is Mr. Bertram Bakerman.
Mr. Stripling. I did not understand you. Will counsel stand up
and identify himself before the committee? ■
Mr. Bakerman. Certainly. My name is Bertram Bakerman.
Mr. Stripling. And your address ?
Mr. Bakerman. 2G1 Broadway, New York City.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Miller, were you ever employed in the Federal
Government ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Would you give the committee a resume of your
Federal Government service?
Mr. Miller. From Sei^tember 1941 to June 1944 I was head of
l^olitical research in the Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs; from
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 779
June 1944 to December 1946, 1 was employed in the State Department
on two different jobs. Do you want me to give them to you?
Mr. Stripling. Yes ; I wish you woukl.
Mr. Miller. One was, I was a member of the information service
conunittee phiced in the Office of Near Eastern Affairs. That was
my first job; and the second job was as Assistant Chief of the Division
of Research and Publication in charge of publications.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever study in the Soviet Union? ^
Mr. Miller, No, sir ; no formal study.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever been to the Soviet Union?
Mr. Miller. I lived there for 2% years.
Mr. Stripling. What were you doing when you were in the Soviet
Union ?
ISIr. Miller. Originally, I went over with the intention of entering
a business office which, however, did not succeed, so I remained as a
journalist.
Mr. Stripling. Representing what newspaper ?
Mr. JNIiller. Almost entirely a series of British newspapers: the
Manchester Guardian, the London Daily Guardian, Reuters News
Agency, and so on.
Mr. vStripling. When you were employed in the State Department,
did you have access to secret and top-secret information?
JNIr. Miller. Secret, yes ; and some top secret.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Elizabeth T. Bentley ?
Mr. ]\IiLLER. Yes; I can identify this woman as someone I knew
some years ago under another name.
Mr. Stripling. Would you stand up, please, and. Miss Bentley,
vrould you stand up ?
(Mr. Miller and Miss Bentley stood up.)
Mr. Stripling. The lady standing is Elizabeth T. Bentley. Have
vou ever seen this person before ?
Mr. Miller. Yes : a number of times under the name of Helen Johns.
Mr. Stripling. You have seen her a number of times under the
name of Helen Johns. Was that your answer ?
Mr. Miller. John, or Johns ; yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Miller, are you now or have you ever been a
member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Miller. No. sir.
Mr. Stripling. You never have been a member of the party ?
Mr. Miller. No.
Mr. Stripling. At no time ?
Mr. Miller. No.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever furnish any information to Elizabeth
Bentley or Helen Johns ?
Mr. Miller. No,
Mr. Stripling. AVould jo\i tell the committee your addresses for
the last 5 years ?
Mr. Miller. Five years back from now would be what ?
Mr. Stripling. Take it from 1940.
Mr. Miller. From 1940. From 1940 to the summer of 1941, 1 lived
at 10 Monroe Street, in New York City; from the sunnner of 1941
until the fall of 1944, 1 lived at 3000 Porter Street, Washington, D. C. ;
780 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
and from the fall of 1944 until February of the current year, I lived
at 3223 Northampton Street, Washington, D. C.
Mr. Stripling. Would you give the AVashington address again?
Mr. Miller. 3223 Northampton Street NW.
Mr. MuNDT. What is your present address?
Mr. Miller. 2731 Palisades Avenue. New York.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet Elizabeth Bentley at the last two
addresses at Washington ?
Mr. Miller. At the first, but not at the second.
Mr. Stripling. That was at 30G0 Porter Street NW., Mr. Miller?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Is this a picture of the residence at 30G0 Porter
Street NW.?
(Photograph shown to witness.)
Mr. Miller. Yes ; I see it has the number on it.
Mr. Stripling. You did meet Elizabeth Bentley at that address?
Mr. Miller. Once or twice ; I would say not more.
Mr. Stripling. What was the purpose of the meeting ?
Mr. Miller. Social.
Mr. Stripling. Are you acquainted with an individual by the name
of Jacob Golos ?
]SIr. Miller. I think I can identify the person who introduced me
to Miss Bentley as Jacob Golos, but this man was known to me as John
Friedman, and I never knew the name of Golos till very recently.
Mr. Stripling. I will show you a picture of him. Is this the indi-
vidual you knew as John Friedman?
(Photograph shown to witness.)
Mr. Miller. I would say it was John Friedman,
Mr. Stripling. You would say it was ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
Mr. Striplix •. How long did j^ou know Mr. Golos?
Mr. Miller. I met Mr. Golos first in the latter part of 1940.
Mr. Stripling. How did you meet him ?
Mr. Miller. He visited — I was a publisher of a news letter on Latin
America in New York City at that time. I say I was a publisher of
a news letter on Latin America in New York City at that time, and
numbers of people visited our office to become acquainted with the
publication, and exchange information, and so on. He was one of
these people — this man whose picture you have shown me. He visited
this office, represented himself as a man named John Friedman, who
was in the exporting and importing business, so he said, and he had an
interest in Latin America, and had an interest down there, and was
interested in the publication, and we struck up an acquaintance on the
basis of the conversation of that kind at that time.
Mr. Stripling. How often did you see him after this meeting?
Mr. Miller. It is hard to say; that is so long ago. It may have
been every couple (jf months, something like that. I would not want
to give the impression that there were regular meetings. I saw liim
on several occasions after that.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever discuss the Communist Party affairs
with Mr. Golos?
Mr. Miller. No, indeed.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever discuss the subject of communism
with him ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 781
INIr. Miller. No.
Mr, Stripling. When did you first take tlie position with the
CIAA?
Mr. Mn.LER. September 1941.
]Slr. Stripling. How long did you remain with that organization?
Mr. Miller. Until June 1944.
Mr. Stripling. While you were employed with the CIAA, did you
meet Mr. Golos ?
Mr. Miller. Once or twice in New York.
Mr. Stripling. Did you give him any information ?
Mr. Miller. Passing through.
Mr. Stripling. In connection with your employment at CIAA?
INIr. Miller. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you meet Elizabeth Bentley while you were
employed in the CIAA ?
Mr. Miller. Yes; I met this woman, who is now identified as
Elizabeth Bentley.
Mr. Stripling. How many times?
Mr. Miller. It would be very hard for me to say, sir. I saw her a
number of times over a period of approximately 2 years.
Mr. Stripling. Did she ever ask you for any information ?
Mr. Miller. No ; not directly.
Mr. Stripling. Did she indirectly?
Mr. Miller. No. I mean by that we used to discuss things.
Mr. MuNDT. What kind of things would you discuss ?
Mr. Miller. Oh, Latin America, Latin- American affairs, our
friends — —
Mr. MuNDT. Any other things?
Mr. Miller. The things that any two people discuss when they
are together on a social basis. We discussed movies, books.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever employed by the Moscow Daily
News?
Mr. Miller. No, sir ; I was not. I am very happy to say I was not,
because apparently there has been an impression around that I was.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever state that you were employed by the
Chattanooga News ?
Mr. Miller. I not only stated so, I was employed by them.
Mr. Stripling. How long were you employed by the Chattanooga
News ?
Mr. Miller. I wrote a weekly article for the Chattanooga News
from Moscow for, to the best of my recollection, 6 or 8 months.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever asked to resign from the Govern-
ment ?
Mr. Miller. When I left the Government, some of these allega-
tions which are being made now apparently were current ; but I must
say tliat I did not understand the whole thing, and I discussed this
situatioji with my superiors. I was not actually asked to resign. I
decided to resign, and I had been wanting to resign anyway.
Mr. Stripling. But you were not asked to resign ?
Mr. Miller. Not directly in the way that the question suggests.
Mr. Stripling. Well, give the committee the circumstances under
which you resigned.
Mr. Miller. I have just done so.
Mr. Stripling. Go into more detail.
782 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Miller. Well, I was asked — I had been asked sometime before
I resigned about my stay in Moscow and my subsequent activities,,
and it began to appear that untrue things were being said about me,,
but things that it was ver}^ hard to combat under the circumstances.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Miller, who asked you those questions?
Mr. Miller. The investigators of the State Department.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you remember their names ?
Mr. Miller. One was Mr. Bannerman.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Bannerman. Was Mr. Murphy one of them ?
Mr. Miller. I do not recall the name. I do not recall the name of
the other man.
Mr. MuNDT. But you do recall Mr. Bannerman?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
The Chairman. Right on that question, before we go on to another
one, you requested — you were asked questions concerning your stay
in Moscow and subsequent activities.
Mr. Miller. Yes.
The Chairman. What subsequent activities?
Mr. Miller. Oh, all about this news letter I had published ; mainly
about that.
The Chairman. Well, did they object to the news letter ?
Mr. Miller. No; they did not. They just wanted to know about
it. Frankly, sir, this was, oh, roughly 2 years ago or more, and I
really cannot recall the exact line of questioning.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you have a file in your possession of the news letter
that you published ?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT, Complete file ?
Mr. Miller. Practically complete ; yes. I am sure I could make it
complete.
Mr. MuNDT. Would you be willing to supply the committee with a
complete file of the news letters ?
Mr, Miller. I would be very happy to, Mr. Mundt, and also I can
say that this news letter, although it did not turn out to be a financial
success in a subscription sense, became very well thought of in the
field of Latin-American news. So well thought of that it was sub-
scribed to — it was sent to all diplomatic posts in Latin America ; it
was subscribed to all over the Government by many libraries and
many business houses, and so on. I would be glad to give you an
analysis also of the kind of subscribers we had.
Mr. JNIuNDT. It would be helpful, but I do not think it would be
informative if we had a complete file of the news letters.
Mr. Miller. I would be very happy to do so. I may sa}^ that I
am very ]n-oud of that episode in my life because I think it was a
very good job.
The Chairman. Go ahead, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Miller, did I understand you to say that you
were a foreign correspondent of the Chattanooga News ?
Mr. Miller. I wrote for the Chattanooga News, as I say, once a
week from Moscow for 6 or 8 months in 19 — I am sorry, in 1935.
Mr. Stripling. Did the stories appear under your byline?
•Mr. Miller. To the best of my recollection they have. I could check
that, I think.
Mr. St^ripling. Well, is it your impression that they did ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 783
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Stoipling. Were you ever employed by the Reuters News
Agency ?
Mr. Miller. For a brief period, yes.
Mr. SiRirLiNG. For Ijow long?
Mv. ]MiLi.ER. Oh, 3 or 4 months ; that, I do not recall exactly either,
because Avhat happened was I replaced the regular correspondent of
Reuters, who went awa}" for a trip back to America and England, and
stayed awa}' quite awhile. It may have been even up to G or 8
months.
Mr. Stripling. Are you married?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
■ Mr. Stripling. What is your Avife's maiden name?
Mr. Miller. May I ask why that question is asked ?
The Chairman. What was the question. Mr. Stripling?
Mr. Stripling. I asked him what his wife's maiden name was.
The Chairman. I think the chief investigator is just trying to
identify you and identify your wife.
Mv. AIiller. Mr. Cliairman, that question has been asked of me, and
possibly of others from time to time, and I am sorry, but possibly
this is not the case here ; sometimes I have had the impression that it
was to bring out the fact that she was J.ewish. Her name is Jenny
Levy.
The Chairman. I want to tell you right now that if you have gotten
that idea or if anybody else has gotten the idea, it is just 100 percent
wrong. You can count on that.
Mr. Stripling. I assure you, Mr. ]SIiller, that was not the purpose
of the inquiry.
Mr. Miller. I accept your statement.
Mr. MiNDT. We do not haA-e the name.
Mr. Miller. Jenny Levy.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Miller, are you acquainted
Mr. MuNDT. Before we leave that — your wife — she was an American
citizen?
Mr. Miller. Indeed she was, born in New York.
Mr. IMuNDT. Thank you.
Mr. Miller. And is.
JNlr. Stripling. Was she a correspondent for the Moscow Daily
News?
Mr. Miller. She was on the staff of the Moscow Daily News at one
time.
Mr. Stripling. In the LTnited States ?
Mr. Miller. In the United States?
Mr. Stripling. Did she represent the Moscow Daily News in the
United States?
Mr. INIiller. Certainly not, sir. I did not know they had any repre-
sentatives here.
Mr. Stripling. Well, they have a lot of representatives that we do
not know about. [Laughter.]
Mv. Miller. Well, she was not one of them.
Mr. Stripling. She was not. Do you know Nathan Gregory Silver-
ma stei- ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
784 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. How long have you known Nathan Gregory Silver-
master ?
Mr. Miller. Oh, since some time in 1945, 1 think.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you meet Mr. Silvermaster?
Mr. Miller. At some party around Washington. I do not remem-
ber where.
Mr. Stripling. How many times did you meet him? More than
once ?
Mr. Miller. After I got to know him, you mean ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Miller. He was a neighbor of mine. We lived a couple of
blocks away from each other in Chevy Chase, and we used to see him
quite often.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever go to Mr. Silvermaster's basement?
Mr. Miller. I do not remember, sir,
ISIr. Stripling. Do you know a Maurice Halperin ?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Is he a friend of yours ?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Joseph B. Gregg ?
Mr. Miller. Sure ; I do.
Mr. Stripling. You do know him?
Mr. Miller. Yes, indeed.
Mr. Stripling. How well do you know him ?
Mr. Miller. Pretty well.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know William Ludwig Ullmann?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. How long liave you known Mr. Ullmann?
Mr. Miller. I met him at the same time that I met Mr. Silver-
master.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Charles Recht?
Mr. Miller. No.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know John Marsalka ?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you meet John JNIarsalka ?
Mr. Miller. When he Avas with the ^^Vinerican consulate in Moscow.
Mr. Stripling. When was that ?
Mr. Miller. Well, it was when I was staying there, in either 1935
or 1936; I could not say precisely when.
Mr. Stripling. Do the members have any questions at this time?
The Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
Mr. INIuNDT. I don't believe that you went into the circumstances,
Mr. Miller, of your first meeting with Miss Bentley, other tlian your
saying that you met her under some other name.
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Will you tell us under what circumstances you first
met her?
Mr. Miller. I was introduced to her by this man John Friedman, or
Golos, as lie is called here.
Mr. jMundt. In New York?
Mr. Miller. In New York; yes. I believe we went out to dinner
together.
Mr. Mundt. What did he say about Miss Bentley when he intro-
duced you ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 785
Mr. Miller. That slie was a friend of liis, and it was apparent that
she was. [Lan<2:hter.]
Mr. MuNDT. When did you next meet Miss Bentley ?
Mr. MiivLER. Shortly after that. I do not remember just when, a
month or two, maybe.
Mr. Mi^NDT. Always in connection with Mr. Golos or sometimes
without Mr. Golos?
Mr. Miller. Often without him.
Mr. MuNDT. You met her several times then at a time when you
lived in New York f
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. And when you moved to Washington, did you ever
meet her in Washington ?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Sometimes in your home?
Mr. Miller. A few times; yes.
Mr. Mundt. Sometimes downtown in restaurants or druff stores?
Mr. Miller. Yes; that is right.
Mr. Mundt. Did she at any time in her conversation lead you to
believe that she had radical or comnnmistic leanings?
Mr. Miller. No, sir.
Mr. Mundt. Did she ever seek information from you ?
Mr. Miller. No, sir.
Mr. Mi^NDT. Did you ever meet her in the Silvermaster home?
Mr. Miller. No, indeed. Actually Miss Bentley became more or
less of a nuisance to me after I had known her a couple of years, and
in the spring of lO-t-t I told her I would prefer to stop these bother-
some meetings that she insisted on having, and we did, and I have laid
no eyes on her until this verv dav.
Mr. MuNDT. I am sorry I cannot hear what you say.
]\Ir. Miller. What I am saying is important, and I want you to
hear it.
Mr. Mundt. I would like to hear it.
Mr. Miller. Shall I begin at the beginning?
Mr. Mundt. Please.
Mr. Miller. I say gradually, as this business wore on. Miss Bentley
would telephone me when she was down here from New York, and
I would go to have dinner or lunch with her, and it got to be pretty
much of a nuisance. Also she was under some nervous tension of
some kind apparently, and she had begun to drink, and she showed
up at a couple of these meetings in not a very happy condition.
Mr. Mundt. What reason would she give you on the telephone for
"wanting to see you ?
Mr. Miller. Just social reasons, as it had always been. She just
said, "Come on and have lunch."
Mr. MirNDT. And you would go ahead and have lunch with her,
meet her downtown, even though it was a nuisance with respect to her.
Mr. Miller. Well, yes. After it got to be bad enough of a nuisance
it quit, and I want to make very clear I have not seen this woman since
the spring of 1044; I would say March or April of that year.
Mr. Mi'NDT. When did you last see Mr. Golos, whom you knew
under the name of Mr. Friedman?
80408—48 19
786 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Miller. I cannot remember. It was probably sometime in
1942, 1 guess. It might have been 1943.
Mr. MuNDT. Will you detail to the committee, Mr. Miller, the
circumstances under which you first entered the Federal employment ?
How did you happen to change from private life to your first con-
nection with the Inter-American Coordinator ?
Mr. Miller. Sure. This news letter that I speak of was a partner-
ship. My partner was a man who had lived in Latin America for a
number of years.
Mr. MuNDT. Put his name in the record.
Mr. Miller. All right. He had been interested for some time in
starting a news letter on Latin America, and that more or less coin-
cided with my ideas.
I had more newspaper experience than he had, and we got together
and started this thing, and its operation depended pretty much on
our both being there. So in the spring of 1941 he encountered some
people who were working with Nelson Rockefeller to get the Coordi-
nator of Inter-American Affairs started, and he, having had a lot of
Latin -American experience and being a rather talented fellow, they
wanted him for their staff in the field, so that he was hired.
Mr. MuNDT. What was his name ?
Mr. Miller. Jack B. Fahy. He is now dead. So, he w^ent to th&
field for the Rockefeller ofhce, oh, I guess in April, May, June of 1941 ;
and after that, pretty much of the entire burden of editing and writ-
ing the thing and doing the other editorial work around there fell on
me, and it became apparent that it could not continue much longer.
At the same time, the people who had originally approached him
about going into the Rockefeller office, then approached me, saying
that they were looking for the kind of a person that I was to take over
an operation of processing news and information internally in the Co-
ordinator's office.
Mr. MuNDT. Who specifically approached you, Mr. Fahj or N&lsoii
Rockefeller or who?
Mr. Miller. Well, through Mr. Fahy I met Nelson Rockefeller,
Carl B. Spate, and Hadley Cantril and a number of other people, and
I discussed coming down there with all of them, and I finally did.
Mr. MuNDT. You worked with him for about 2 years ?
Mr. Miller. Well, from September 1941 to June 1944.
Mr. MuNDT. Wliat impelled you to change from that section to the
State Department?
Mr. Miller. Well, I have always had an approach to jobs that
Avhen they are established and going, and the best has been gotten out
of them, I would like to go on to something new and something tougher,
and we had done quite a job, I think, in setting up this information
processing operation within the Coordinator's office ; and Mr. Rocke-
feller had led us to believe that it was useful to him, and the whole
thing was running like a clock. At the same time, if you remember,
I forget who the Secretary of State was then, but that was the begin-
ning of the time of the reorganization in the State Department, and a
lot of things that we had done they had not done, and some of their
peo})le got interested in me to come over there and help work on that.
Mr. MuNDT. Who, specifically?
Mr, Miller. The person I talked to principally about that was Jack
Erhardt, who was then the head of the Office of Foreign Service.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 787
Mr. MuNDT. He is the man who is now our Minister in Vienna?
Mr. Miller. I think he is Minister in Vienna. I am not certain.
Mr. MuNDT. He approached you with the suggestion first that you
switch from that Office to the State Department?
Mr. Miller. Actually, sir, I think it was a letter from him to
Cantril or he spoke to Cantril about me, the fellow who had originally
brought me into the Eockefeller office.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Fahy ?
Mr. Miller. No; Hadley Cantril. He is professor of social psy-
chology at Princeton, and a classmate of Nelson Kockefeller's at
Dartmouth.
Mr. MuNDT. And you stayed in the State Department until this
unpleasantness developed about your past experience, and these ques-
tions, and at that time you say you had about decided to quit the State
Department anyhow, so, after a discussion about this past record of
yours, you resigned.
Mr. Miller. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. And what are you doing now, Mr. Miller ?
Mr. Miller. I am in the public-relations business in New York City.
Mr. MuNDT. Self-employed?
Mr. Miller. No ; I am working for a firm named Randolph Feltus.
Mr. MuNDT. Those are all the questions at this time.
The Chairmax. The Chair would like to announce that the com-
mittee will go into a short recess, and the witness will step back and
take a seat, and we will call him just as soon as we come back from the
recess.
(Short recess taken.)
The Chairman. The meeting will come to order. Everyone please
take their seats.
We will resume with the testimony of Mr. Miller.
Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDowell. I yield to the gentleman from California.
The Chairman. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Miller, you indicated that you lived a couple of
doors away from Mr. Silvermaster ?
Mr. Miller. A couple of blocks away.
Mr. Nixon. I see. He visited in your home and you visited in his
from time to time?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. There is one point in which the committee has been
particular^ interested in these investigations, and that is whether or
not Mr. Silvermaster did have some photographic equipment in his
basement. Did you ever see any there?
Mr. Miller. No.
Mr. Nixon. And Mr. Silvermaster — did you ever hear Mr. Silver-
master or any other people in his house discuss photographic equip-
ment that he had in his basement ?
Mr. Miller. No, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know whether he had any photographic equip-
ment in his basement or not?
Mr. Miller. No ; I do not.
Mr. Nixon. It was never discussed in your presence ?
Mr. Miller. No.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know that he did not have any ?
788 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Mii.LER. What is that?
Mr. MuNDT. Would you know whether he did not have photographic
equipment ?
Mr. Miller. I just do not know.
]Mr. MuNDT. You would not know either way.
Mr. Nixon. You indicated that Mr. Golos and you were acquainted
over a period of time.
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. But that acquaintanceship, as I understand, was purely
social, not a business acquaintanceship, in other words.
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. In other words, you were a guest at his home and he
was a guest at your home?
Mr. Miller. I never visited his home ; no, sir.
Mr. Nixoi^. I am sorry, I did not hear that.
Mr. Miller, I say I never visited his home.
Mr. Nixon. Well, but he was at your home ?
Mr. Miller. I could not recall quite precisely. I would say prob-
ably not.
Mr. Nixon. But you saw him a number of times over a period of
years.
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Where did you see him ?
Mr. Miller. We used to have dinner. We used to have dinner or
lunch. I do not mean frequently. We used to have dinner or lunch
when we met.
Mr. Nixon. And, as far as you know, the times that you met Mr.
Golos were, say, in public restaurants ?
Mr. Miller. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. And you never recall a meeting either at his home or in
your home ?
Mr. Miller. No.
Mr. Nixon. You never had any business dealings with Mr. Golos
at all?
Mr. Miller. No.
Mr. Nixon. And you never had any financial transactions with him
at all?
Mr. Miller. No, indeed.
Mr. Nixon. And you and Mr. Golos, during that period of time —
were there other guests present, in addition to Mr. Golos? You men-
tioned this person who was present on one occasion. Do you recall
any occasion in which anybody might have been present ?
Mr. Miller. No ; I do not.
Mr. Nixon. Can you say that any other people were present at the
times that you met Mr. Golos ?
Mr. Miller. None that I recall; no. I would say there was not
anybody present.
Mr. Nixon. There were not. In other words, just you and Mr. Golos ?
Mr. Miller. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. During the times that you met these meetings were
purely social ?
Mr. Miller. That is right.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 789
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall whether or not you did discuss at any
time any — I assume that you probably did discuss political matters,
from time to time.
Mr. Miller. Oh, we discussed situations in Latin America — I mean
conditions, changing conditions in dill'erent countries.
Mr. Nixon. Will you repeat that, please ?
The Chairman. Your voice has failed since we left the room.
Mr. JNIiLLER. I will try to bring it back. Why don't you get a
microphone that stands up to people 'i
The Chairman. Just talk into it.
Mr. Nixon. Just talk into it.
Mr. Miller. I say we discussed situations in Latin America ; yes,
sir; changing conditions.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Golos was very much interested in conditions in
Latin America ?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. What type of information did you give him, or did he
give you, in regard to the situation in Latin America during these
conversations ?
Mr. Miller. Well, I do not know that you could really say that —
I say I do not think you w^ould really refer to information being given,
but we would discuss things.
Mr. Nixon. What type of information was transmitted between you
two ?
Mr. Miller. It was in the form of discussions of situations in which
he would learn what I knew, and I would learn what he knew.
Mr. NixoN. He was interested in what you knew, and you were
interested in what he knew ?
Mr. Miller. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. Was that the nature of the subject that you discussed
during that period in Latin America ?
Mr. Miller. Well, I would say occasionally.
Mr. Nixon. What did you discuss about Latin America, the busi-
ness situation, the political situation ?
Mr. Miller. Yes ; in different countries.
Mr. Nixon. I see. Did you ever discuss the Comnumist Party in-
filtration into Latin- American countries by any chance?
Mr. Miller. I do not recall that ; no, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Golos was not interested in that particular subject?
Mr. Miller. No, sir ; as he represented himself to me
Mr. Nixon. You did not know whether or not Mr. Golos was a
member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Miller. No, sir.
Mr. Nixon. You did not know whether or not Miss Bentley was a
member of the Connnunist Party ?
Mr. Miller. No, sir.
Mr. Nixon. You did not know whether or not Mr. Silvermaster was
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Miller. Certainly not, sir.
Mr. Nixon. You did not know whether or not Mr. Ullmann was a
member of the Connnunist Party?
790 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Miller. I would have to say that with regard to these two they
were — Silvermaster and Ulhnann — they were both respected Govern-
ment employees of fairly high standing for a number of years.
Mr. Nixon. In other words, you were apparently quite surprised at
the implication which is that these people were members of the
Communist Party, I gather.
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. During all the time that you knew them socially over a
period of time, you never, from your discussions with them, had any
idea that they might be members of the Conununist Party ?
Mr. Miller. No, indeed.
Mr. Nixon. In fact, you mean that in all those discussions then,
you never discussed political matters; is that correct?
Mr. Miller. An informed person can hardly talk to anyone now-
adays without discussing politics in one way or the other. But cer-
tainly there was nothing in these discussions which led me to believe
that any of these people were Communists.
Mr. Nixon. Now, proceeding to your acquaintanceship with Miss
Bentley, that was over a period, do I understand, of how many years?
Mr. Miller. Between two and three.
Mr. Nixon. And you saw her on several occasions during that
period ?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Apj>roximately how long? I mean, to the best of your
recollection ?
Mr. Miller. It is awfully hard to say, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Approximately every 2 weeks, would you say?
Mr. Miller. No, not as often as that.
Mr. Nixon. Well, approximately every month, would you say?
Mr. Miller. I would not say approximately every month, because
the intervals at which I saw her were not regular, as that question
implied.
Mr. NixoN. How were these meetings arranged?' Miss Bentley
would come to town and call you, would she, at your office?
Mr. Miller. That is right.
Mr. NixoN. They were not arranged by letter, by any chance?
Mr. Miller. No, indeed.
Mr. Nixon. I see. She would call you and say that she was in town
and you would have lunch together ; is that right ?
Mr. Miller. That is it.
Mr. Nixon. On all the occasions that you met her, was it at lunch
or dinner ?
Mr. Miller. Sometimes it was for a drink, you know, during the
cocktail period.
Mr. MuNDT. I think you testified that sometimes it was in your
home, was it not?
Mr. Miller. Once or twice, I said.
Mr. Nixon. Well, now, it was sometimes at lunch, sometimes dinner,
and sometimes a drink. Were there any other occasions that you can
recall that you might have met her?
Mr. Miller. I seem to remember having had breakfast with her
now and then.
Mr. McDowell. Did you say that you did have breakfast with her ?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 791
Mr. XixoN. Are there any other occasions beside that, do you re-
■call ? For example, Avhat I am trying to get at, and it is quite obvious,
is did you ever meet lier iii your oftice?
Mr. Miller. No.
Mr. Ntxox. She never came to your office ?
Mr. INIiLLER. No.
Mr. Nixon. Did you ever meet her in any Government office?
]Mr. jSIiller. No.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you ever meet her on a street corner or on a bridge
or in a park or something like that ?
Mr. Miller. Only with a view to going some place to eat or some-
thing like that.
Mr. MuNDT. You first meet her there, and then go to some place
to eat?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr, Nixon. Mr. Miller, the occasion of these meetings, were you
always alone with Miss Bentley ?
Mr. Miller. Would you repeat that ?
Mr. Nixon. I said, on the occasions of these meetings, other than
the first meeting with Mr. Golos, these casual meetings from time
to time that you have indicated, were you and Miss Bentley generally
alone ?
Mr. Miller. Now and then my wife came along.
Mr. Nixon. Now and then your wife was there ?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. On most of the occasions, was your wife there, or on
most of these occasions were you alone with Miss Bentley; do you
recall ?
Mr. Miller. I would say that on most of these occasions my wife
was not there.
Mr. Nixon. I see ; and these meetings with Miss Bentley, as I under-
stand you to say, like the meetings with Mr. Golos, were purely
social?
Mr. Miller. Sure.
Mr. Nixon. And on these occasions Miss Bentley showed no interest
in your job or the information that you might have had in your job,
or anything of that sort; is that correct?
Mr. Miller. She never tried to get such information.
Mr. Nixon. She did not discuss that with you at all?
Mr. Miller. No.
Mr. Nixon. And you never discussed with her your job or what you
w^ere doing at work, or anything of that kind ; is that correct ?
Mr. Miller. No ; I may have talked about the regular Washington
gossip among agencies, and that kind of stuff. Outside of that; no.
Mr. Nixon. Miss Bentley was not in the Government at that time,
you understand, but you did not, you say, possibly discuss anything
but Government gossip, and that sort of thing.
Mr. Miller. The kind of thing that you read in the newspapers in
Washington all the time.
Mr. Nixon. But Miss Bentley indicated no particular interest in
what you were doing then or what information you might have?
Mr. Miller. No.
Mr. Nixon. Can you recall in the case of Mr. Golos what particular
items you did discuss at these meetings?
792 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Miller. As I have said, the conversation was general.
Mr. Nixon. General ?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. That would include, for example, political matters.
What political matters did you discuss^
Mr. Miller. I can't remember any specific thin<j.
Mr. Nixon. But you did. discuss political matters ?
Mr. Miller. We may have discussed elections in Latin America.
Mr. Nixon. Was Miss Bentley interested in what was happening
in Latin America ?
Mr. Miller. More or less ; yes.
Mr. Nixon. Did she ask you about it?
Mr. Miller. Not intensively.
Mr. Nixon. And from these discussions of political matters you
never had any indication that Miss Bentley might have had partial
Communist leanings, even partial Communist leanings?
Mr. Miller. She didn't represent herself as reactionary.
Mr. Nixon. There was no indication at all that she possibly could
have been a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Miller. No.
Mr. Nixon. Have you ever given any money to Miss Bentley ?
Mr. Miller. No.
Mr. Nixon. You have already testified you didn't give her any Gov-
ernment documents. You have also indicated that you have not dis-
cussed any matters having to do with your employment w^ith her.
That is, any matters having to do with the job you did in your office
as distinguished from others; is that correct?
Mr. Miller. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. There is one other point. The question was raised as
to whether or not you had left the Government in, I think it was, 1946.
At that time you were with the State Department ?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Did I understand you to say you resigned from the
Government ?
Mr. Miller. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall whether or not you resigned with preju-
dice?
Mr. Miller. Without.
Mr. Nixon. Without prejudice?
Mr. Miller. Without piejudice, and, furthermore, I have letters
from my superiors complimenting me on the work I had done and
expressing regret at my leaving.
Mr. NixoN. Assuming you wanted to go back to the Government,
there would be nothing to deter you from getting Government em-
ployuient at the present time ?
Mr. Miller. I would say after my appearance here today, there
might be.
Mr. McDowell. Repeat that.
Mr. Miller. I would say that there might be ; yes.
Mr. Nixon. Let's start before your appearance tcxlay. As of the
time you left, to the best of your knowledge, there was nothing to
indicate to you that you could not go back to Government employ-
ment ?
Mr. Miller. I don't
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 793
Mr. Nixon. I mean that there would be no question raised as to
your eliojibility for Government employment at the present time?
Mr. Miller. I have already said, sir, that before I left the State
Department, some question was raised about my past activities, and
1 thought that since I wanted to resign at the end of the war and go
into business anyway, that would solve the problem that way, and it
did.
Mr. Nixon. I understood you to say when you did leave you went
highly recommended by your superiors.
Mr. Miller. I did.
Mr. Nixon. Letters of recommendation were given to you ?
Mr. Miller. Letters of commendation.
Mr. Nixon. Can you recall who those people were by any chance?
Mr. Miller. One was Francis Russell and the other was E'. Wylie
Spaulding.
Mr. Nixox. Both of them gave you these recommendations?
Mr. Miller. Sure, they did.
Mr. Nixon. Thank you very much. That concludes my questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling, do you have anything?
Mr. Stripling. When did you resign?
Mr. Miller. December 13, 1946.
Mr. Stripling. When did you actuallv leave the Department?
Mr. Miller. That day.
Mr. Stripling. I have here a memorandum from the files of the
Department of State addressed to Mr. Donald Russell, Assistant Sec-
retary, from Mr. R. L. Bannerman, Office of Controls, dated July 24,
1946."^ It states:
Mr. Miller is presently employed in the Department as Assistant Chief of the
Division of Research and Pnhlications, in charge of the Pnblishing Branch ;
P-7 ; salary, $7,437.50.
The information developed by the FBI in its current investigation of Mr.
Miller supports the conclusion that his continued presence in the Department
constitutes a strong risk to the security of departmental functions and to the
classified information of this Department. It is recommended, therefore, that
his services be terminated in accordance with Public Law No. 490.
The conclusion of the report on recommendations said :
It is reconnnended that the services of Mr. Miller be terminated under pro-
visions of Public Law 490. He is regarded as a security risk.
There is some confidential material which I will not read.
Were you aware, Mr. Miller, that such a report was in the files of
the State Department ?
Mr. Miller. I was not, sir. In fact, I asked at the time whether
there was and received no answer.
Mr. Nixon. In fact, Mr. Miller, it was the same Mr. Russell to
whom this report was made who, after that report was made, gave
you a very high recommendation, wasn't it ?
Mr. Miller. There were two different Russells.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Donald Russell received this report.
Mr. Miller. He was Assistant Secretary of State in charge of ad-
ministration. Francis Russell was a different person.
Mr. Nixon. Thank you.
The Chairman. Any other questions, Mr. Stripling?
Mr. Stripling. I have nothing further.
The Chairman. Mr. Hebert.
794 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Miller, your relationship with the man Silver-
master — did you know Mr. Silvermaster's background?
' Mr. Miller. Would you specify that a little more, sir? I knew he
had been in the Government a long time.
Mr. Hebert. You knew he had been in the Government. Did you
know where he was born ?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. W^iere was he born?
Mr. Miller. He was born somewhere in Russia, I understand.
Mr. Hebert. Did you know why he left Russia?
Mr. Miller. No — well, I understood he left Russia because his
mother came here to go in business because she didn't like it in the
part of Russia she was living, or something like that. I frankly don't
know. I may have heard a casual remark.
Mr. Hebert. You did know he was born in Russia ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Did he know you had lived in Russia for two and a
half years?
Mr. Miller. Yes; he did.
Mr. Hebert. Didn't you discuss Russian conditions?
Mr. Miller. Very little.
Mr. Hebert. Now, Mr. Miller, Mr. Silvermaster testified on this
stand that he left Russia because of the conditions over there —
czaristic oppression. He felt very keenly about it and that is the
reason he came to America.
You lived in Russia for 214 years. Isn't it very strange that the
subject of Russian Government shouldn't come up for extended dis-
cussion in such an intellectual gathering?
Mr. Miller. I don't know just what intellectual gathering you are
referring to. In the second place, of course, he discussed conditions
in regard to czarist Russia and he told me he was against that.
Mr. Hebert, What did he tell you about that?
Mr. Miller. They were bad.
Mr. Hebert. Did he just say they were bad — period — the conversa-
tion is over? Let's get down to this. You have got a good back-
ground; you are obviously an experienced and able newspapeiTnan.
You know what I am talking about just as well as I do and you know
exactly what information I am trying to elicit from you. Do you
want to talk to your counsel ? He seems to have something to tell you.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Miller. Would you continue, sir ?
. Mr. Hebert. The information that not only myself but eveiy other
member of this committee is trying to get — we are trying to get at
the facts in this thing. We are trying to talk about it above the table
as much as we possibly can.
For my own part there is no political implication in this hearing
at all. I don't care whether they ai'e Republicans, Democrats, New
Dealers, or good southern Democrats with State's rights ideas. I am
interested only in the facts. I don't care whom it hurts or where the
chips fall.. The only way we are going to get at the bottom of this
whole thing — and I don't care whether these hearings go on for 10
years because they are timeless as far as I am concerned in the interest
of the American people.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 795
Now, are we going to have to sit here and drag everything out of
an intelligent man like you when you know what we want to get? We
will have to stay here for weeks on end, and I will stay here for weeks
on end.
Now, what w^as your conversation with Silvermaster discussing the
Russian system of government?
Mr. Miller. I have said, sir, there was not one conversation. I am
trying to give you the purport of casual remarks here and there over
a long period of time. I knew he didn't like the czarist government.
I knew he didn't like conditions under it.
Mr. Hebert. What did you tell him ?
Mr. ]\IiLLER. I told him from what I had known about the czarist
government it wasn't very good.
Mr. Hebert. What did you tell him about what you knew about the
Communist government ? You were living there.
Mr. Miller. We didn't discuss it much.
Mr. Hebert. Do you mean to tell me that in the social conversations,
the general conversation, that you just flung aside your experience and
your impressions of the Communist government after 2^/2 years of
living there with a man who had fleet the country because he didn't
like the czarist regime?
Mr. Miller. We didn't cast them aside, sir. They just didn't come
up much.
Mr. Hebert. How long did you know Silvermaster?
Mr. Miller. Well, as I say, I first met him in 1945, I believe. We
were neighbors. We talked about our gardens, we talked about our
houses, we talked about my children. I got a bunch of raspberry
plants from him. We exchanged cooking recipes.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you ever talk about photography ?
Mr. INIiLLER. No, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Never talked about that ?
Mr. Miller. No, sir.
Mr. Hebert. You still never discussed something which an intel-
lectual of your level would certainly consider important and certainly
as a member of the State Department involved in all these matters,
3'ou could certainly have a personal opinion without revealing any of
your official activities. You talked about Washington political gossip,
as you said.
Mr. Miller. I said that was one of the subjects with Miss Bentley.
I wouldn't say we did with Mr. Silvermaster, too.
Mr. Hebert. You made it general, that everybody in Washington
was talking about it, so you included Silvermaster in that, too. Every-
body, you said. You didn't get into a real discussion with him about
the relative merits of the two systems of government or the conditions
since he had left and you were there ?
Mr. Miller. He was against the czarist system.
Mr. Hebert. Did he say he liked the communistic system ?
Mr. Miller. No, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Your wife worked on the Moscow Daily News ; is that
right?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. How long did she work on the Moscow Daily News ?
796 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Miller. I don't remember, sir. I think it was about a year.
She was not working there when we met. She was discharged for
frivolity.
Mr. Hebert. She w^as discharged for frivolity ?
Mr. Miller. She was considered to be too much of a gay American
who wanted fun.
Mr. Hebert. How did she get to Russia? Why did she go there?
Mr. Miller. She went there during the depression because she was
interested in dancing. She considered the Russians had the best
ballet in the world.
Mr. Hebert. Would that be associated with the Academy of — INIr.
Stripling, what is the name of that science academy?
Mr. Stripling. Academy of Science.
Mr. Hebert. The Academy of Science. What is that in Russia?
Mr. Millp:r. I frankly know very little about it. It is, I suppose, an
organization where guidance is given in all kinds of scientific pro-
cedure.
Mr. Hebert. Was she a member of that academy?
Mr. Miller. Lord, no. The ballet had nothing to do with that.
Mr. McDowell. I didn't get the answer.
Mr. Miller. I said, no; she certainly had nothiug to do with that.
Some people would say that the ballet is a science, but I don't think
she would.
Mr. Hebert. Did she have any connection at all with the Academy
of Science.
Mr. Miller. No, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Do you know what the Academy of Science in Russia is ?
Mr. Miller. Only as a name which I assume means an organization
which is something like the one we have in this country where leading
men in science are employed to give guidance and that sort of thing
all over the country. I don't know a damned thing about it.
Mr, Hebert. In your two and a half years in Russia, you mean your
inquisitiveness as a newspaper reporter Avoiddn't lead you to find
out what everything means in Russia, what is going on in Russia?
Mr. Miller. Good gracious, sir ; it is a big country. I applied myself
quite diligently, I thiuk, to learning as much as I could. I just didn't
happen to hit the Academy of Science.
Mr. Hebert. AVhat did you learn about Russia, then ?
Let's see how much you did learn while you were there.
Mr. Miller. That is an almost impossible question.
Mr. Hebert. No; it is not impossible.
Mr. Miller. I left there in 1986. Since then I have done a great
many things and specialized in a great many other areas, and to ask
me at this date what I learned about Russia when I was there is a
pretty big order.
The Chairman. The Chair would like to interject at this point. It
is not clear to the Chair just what this type of questioning is leading
up to and whether it is in line with the investigation and the hearings
we have going on, the question of espionage.
Ml'. Hebert. I think it is very pertinent, Mr. Chairman. I am
trying to draw from a very reluctant witness his ideas on government.
I am trying to draw from a reluctant witness his associations with
people who were known Communists. I am trying to draw from the
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 797
witness his association with people whose names haA'e been mentioned
in this connection as members of an espionage ring.
Mr. Miller. Just a minute, sir.
(Consuhation betAA'een Mr. Miller and Mr. Bakerman.)
Mr. IMiLLER. In connection with each name j^ou have asked me,
Avhether I knew them, and I answered. I have not. knowingly, asso-
ciated with known Communists at any time.
Mr. Heijert. I am trying to elicit also from the witness exactly
what the conversations were, to develop just how far their opinions
clashed or did not clash or agree.
Who was your partner in the publication of this letter ?
Mr. Miller. Jack B. Fahy.
Ml'. Hebert. Is that the same Jack B. Fahy who was a member of
the Abraham Lincoln Brigade?
Mr. Miller. It was, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Do you know what the Abraham Lincoln Brigade is?
Mr. Miller. Yes.'
Mr. Hebert. AVhat is it ?
Mr. Miller. It was an organization of men in this country who were
stirred by what was happening in Spain and went over there to fight
for the Republican government.
Mr. Hebert. Do you know that the Abraham Lincoln Brigade is
listed as a front organization for the Communist Party?
Mr. Miller. I know that the Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln
Brigade are so listed.
Mr. Hebert. Is that the same outfit Mr. Fahy belonged to?
Mr. Miller. The brigade and the veterans would be two different
organizations. 1 am not trying to evade this question at all. I don't
know that the Abraham Lincoln Brigade at the time it was operating
in Spain was listed as a subversive organization.
Mr. Hebert. But you know that the Abraham Lincoln Brigade
was listed as a subversive organization, or rather a front for the Com-
munist Party?
Mr. Miller. Yes, long after the war in Spain ended, the veterans
thereof — so far as I know. I haven't paid much attention to it. I
have had no connection with it of anj^ kind.
Mr. Hebert. Did Mr. Fahy's political background have any interest
to you?
Mr. Miller. I was in favor of what he did in Spain ; yes.
Mr. Hebert. Did you discuss it with him ?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
JNIr. Hp^bert. Very much ?
Mr. Miller. Fairly often. You don't discuss a subject and then
come back and discuss it again once a month. We discussed it on
several occasions and then it was just left.
Mr. Heeert. What is your repl}' to the recommendation for your
dismissal from the State Department, which the chief investigator read
to you ?
Mr. Miller. I made clear, sir, that I asked whether there was any
such memorandum at the time I left, and received no reply. I am
very greatly su.rprised to hear this memorandum read today. I didn't
know of its existence.
Mr. Hebert. Whom did you ask?
Mr. Miller. Well, I will have to try and remember.
798 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Hebert. Wouldn't that be an important event in your life, to
be charged with something like that ?
Mr. Miller. Sure.
Mr. Hebert. And you would remember the individual you talked to
about it ?
IMr. Miller. I asked Mr. Bannerman the last time I saw him what
disposition had been made of the case, and he told me it had been
forwarded to Donald Eussell, the Assistant Secretary.
Mr. Hebert. Did you ask him what that report contained?
Mr. Miller. It would have been improper to have asked him that,
sir, and it would have been improper for him to reply because, as the
State Department is set up, action of that kind comes from the highest
administrative authority directly to the employee. I didn't know
about that memo.
Mr. Hebert. What is your reaction to it right now, that you know
such a recommendation was made?
Mr. Miller. I regret it very gi-eatly and do not consider it justified.
Mr. Hebert. That is all.
The Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Mundt. Did you say that you were married in New York City?
Mr. Miller. Did I say ?
Mr. Mundt. Yes.
Mr. Miller. No, I was not.
Mr. Mundt. You said your wife was born in New York?
Mr. Miller. That is right.
Mr. Mundt. Where were you married ?
Mr. Miller. In Moscow, Russia.
Mr. Mundt. Is your wife, or has your wife ever been, a member of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Miller. Certainly not, sir.
Mr. Mundt. Have you ever belonged to any of the front organiza-
tions which the Attorney General has listed from time to time as being
subversive ?
Mr. Miller. Absolutely none.
Mr. Mundt. Do you believe that a man can be a member of the
Communist Party and be a loyal American citizen at one and the
same time ?
Mr. Miller. I frankly hadn't contemplated that question, sir.
Mr. Mundt. Would you contemplate it now ?
(Consultation was had between Mr. Miller and Mr. Bakerman.)
Mr. Mundt. Your counsel will help you contemplate it.
Mr. Miller. It would seem to me to be the sort of question you
couldn't very well answer off the cuff like that.
Mr. Mundt. You lived in Russia for two and a half years. I have
been there just a little over a month. I can answer it very quickly
from my experience over there. I would think in the time you have
heen there you would now know after all these years the answer one
way or the other; or at least, perhaps to say that you don't know
whether you can answer.
Mr, Miller. No ; I don't know that the question would necessarily
refer to Russia.
Mr. Mundt. All right, forget Russia. Do you think a man can
belong to the Communist Party of the United States and still be a
loyal American citizen ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 799
Mr. Miller. I can conceive of that ; yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Have you known any people who were at one and the
same time loyal American citizens and members of the Communist
Party of the United States?
Mr. Miller. No.
Mr. MuNDT. You have never knowai a Communist ?
Mr. Miller. No.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you ever talk to any people in Russia whom you
thought might be Communists ?
Mr. Miller. Oh, sure, I thought you were talking about here.
Mr. Mundt. I did mean here. On the basis of your background of
information in Russia and your knowledge of life in the United States,
you believe it is possible then to be a loyal American citizen and a
Communist here at the same time ?
Mr. Miller. Yes ; I said I can conceive of it.
The Chairman. What was the answer?
Mr. Miller. I said I can conceive of that happening.
Mr. Mundt. What is the nature of the public-relations position and
work Avhich you now do? Do you represent a foreign country? Do
you represent a firm of exporters and importers, or what is the nature
of it ^
Mr. Miller. It is a general public-relations firm and I am an execu-
tive. I have general responsibility for such accounts as are assigned
to me.
Mr. Mundt. You handle contracts with such companies as Ameri-
can Tpbacco Co. or General Motors?
Mr. Miller. Those don't happen to be our clients ; no.
Mr. Mundt. Could you name a few of your clients ?
The Chairman. I don't think you should name them.
Mr. Mundt. If it isn't confidential ; if it is, that is different.
The Chairman. If he names liis contracts, he just opens up the firm.
Mr. iMuNDT. Let me rephrase the question. Have you ever repre-
sented any foreign governments with, your firm?
Mr. INfiLLER. Yes.
Mr. Mundt. Which ones ?
Mr. Miller. Well, along the line of Mr. Thomas' observation, need
I answer that question ?
The Chairman. Yes ; a foreign government, that is all right. It is
a matter of public record in the Justice Department.
Mr. jVIundt. May I have it ?
Mr. Miller. The account I worked for is the Dutch Government,
Mr. Mundt. The Dutch Government ?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Mundt. That is the only one for which your firm is registered ?
Mr. Miller. INIr. Feltus personally has done work for the Polish
Government. However, b}^ explicit arrangement with him, which
is also stated in writing in the registration with the Department of
Justice. I have nothing to do with that account whatever.
Mr. Mundt. In your registration statement are any other govern-
ments mentioned ?
Mr. Miller. No. sir.
Mr. Mundt. Is that the same public-relations firm that handled the
public relations for the Bretton Woods program?
800 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Miller. I don't think — well, the answer would be "No." Mr.
Feltus was in the Government at that time and didn't have a lot to do
with that. He was a Government employee and had no firm of his
own. Whether there were outside firms retained to help on that work,
I frankly don't know. That is sometimes done. But if it did happen,
it wouldn't have been his firm because his firm wasn't established at
that time.
Mr. Mfndt. The Polish Government, for which your partner or as-
sociate worked, as a registered agent for a foreign govei'ument from^
a public relations standpoint — is that the present Polish Government"
or the one that preceded the present government ?
Mr. Miller. The present Polish Government in Washington.
Mr. MuNDT. No further questions.
The Chairman. Does any other member have any questions at this
point ?
Mr. McDowell. I would like to know the names of the newspapers
you worked for while in Moscow.
Mr. Miller. I can't give them all to you absolutely chronologically
without referring to my records, but the most important were the
Manchester Guardian, London Daily Herald, Reuters News Agency,
Chattanooga News. I also wrote a few articles for the Baltimore
Sun.
Mr. McDowell. I believe you testified you did not work for the
Moscow Daily News.
Mr. Miller. No, indeed, sir.
Mr. McDowell. Were you ever in the building, the editorial offices^
of the Moscow Daily News?
Mr. Miller. On a few rare occasions.
Mr. McDowell. You never received any money from them?
Mr. Miller. Any money?
Mr. McDowell. Any money.
Mr. Miller. No ; I never did anything for them.
Mr. JMcDowELL. Thank you very much.
The Chairman. Any more questions, Mr. Stripling?
Mr. Stripling. No more questions.
The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Miller.
Mr. Stripling, do you want this witness to stay under subpena?
Mr. Stripling. No, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. The first witness tomorrow morning will be Mr.
Henry Collins. The meeting is adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 4 : 40 p. m., the conmiittee adjourned.)
HEARINGS REGARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 11, 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Special Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
and the Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. C.
Tlie committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a. m., in the caucus room,
Old House Office Building, Hon. J. Parnell Thomas (chairman) pre-
siding.
Committee members present (subcommittee) : Representatives
J. Parnell Thomas (chairman), John McDowell, and F. Edward
Hebert.
Committee members present (full committee) : Representatives
Thomas (chairman), Mundt, McDowell, Nixon, and Hebert.
Staff members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator;
Louis J. Russell, investigator: and A. S. Poore, editor, for the com-
mittee.
The Chairman. The meeting will come to order. Everyone will
please take their seats.
The record will show that the subcommittee is sitting. Those pres-
ent are : Mr. McDowell, Mr. Hebert, and Mr. Thomas, a quorum of the
subconnnittee which is present.
The Chair has this announcement to make. The witnesses Thursday
will be George Silverman, Charles Kramer, and two witnesses we are
now attempting to serve.
The witnesses Friday will be Harry Dexter White, Lauchlin Currie,
Donald Hiss, Dr. and Mrs. Bela Gold, and Frank Coe.
There will probably be a meeting on Saturday.
The Chair also Avishes to announce that a subcommittee will leave
tomorrow for New York to hear the testimony of the Samarines in
executive session in New York. That subcommittee will consist of Mr.
Mundt, Mr. McDowell, and Mr. Hebert.
The first witness today Avill be Henry H. Collins.
Mr. Collins, will you be sworn? Will you please raise your right
hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to
give before the committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ijig but the truth, so help 3'ou God ?
Mr. Collins. I do.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Collins, are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. Collins. I am.
]Mr. Strh'lino. Would you have your counsel identify himself,
l^lease ?
80408 — 48— — 20 801
802 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Lamberton. Harry C. Lamberton of the District of Columbia
bar.
Mr. Stripling. Wliat is your address, Mr. Lamberton?
Mr. Lamberton. 1645 Connecticut Avenue.
TESTIMONY OF HENRY H. COLLINS
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Collins, will you please state your full name
and present address?
Mr. Collins. Henry H. Collins, Jr., 58 Park Avenue, New York.
Mr. Stripling. What is your present occupation ?
Mr. Collins. Executive director of American Russian Institute.
Mr. Stripling. How long have you been executive director of the
American Russian Institute?
Mr. Collins. About 6 months.
Mr. Stripling. What was' your employment prior to your going
to the Russian institute?
Mr. Collins. I have been employed in the Federal Government for
about 15 years.
Mr. Stripling. Would you give the committee chronologically in
order your Federal service?
Mr. Collins. May I read a statement at this time, Mr. Stripling?
Mr. Stripling. I think it would be better, Mr. Collins, if you would
further identify yourself and give the committee the background in-
formation as to your Federal employment. They will permit you to
read your statement at that time.
Mr. Collins. My Federal employment started late in 1933 with
the National Recovery Administration. In 1935, 1 went with the Soil
Conservation Service; in 1938, I think, I went with the Department
of Labor in the Wage and Hour Division. From there, I was loaned
to the House Committee on the Interstate Migration of Destitute
Citizens, and later to the Senate Committee on Small Business, and
subsequently to the Kilgore committee, a subcommittee of the Military
Affairs Committee on war mobilization. From there, I received a
commission and went into the School of Military Government at
Charlottesville and was shortly sent overseas and spent 2 years in the
European theater, in England, France, and Germany.
Mr. Stripling. What commission did you receive ?
Mr. Collins. Captain.
Mr. Stripling. Was that the highest rank you obtained?
Mr. Collins. Major.
Mr. Stripling. And you were discharged as a major?
Mr. Collins. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Are you a major in the Reserves at this time?
Mr. Collins. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Are you a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Collins. I decline to answer that question on the grounds that
my answer might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Before you go on with any other questions, the
Chair would like to state to this witness that we expect you to cooper-
ate. This is a committee of Congress, a committee investigating
espionage in the TTnited States, one of the most serious things that
we could be investigating.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 803
We want the cooperation of everyone, not only those in the Govern-
ment and the people on the street, but we want the cooperation par-
ticularly of the witnesses, and you will be cooperating if you will be
very frank in your answers; and if you are not frank in your answers,
you will not be cooperatino; with a committee of Congress.
Do you understand that ?
Mr. Collins. Yes, sir. It is for that reason I should like to read a
statement at this time.
The Chairman. We are going to have patience with you, but at the
same time we want frank and honest answers from you.
Now, you go ahead, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Collins. May I read my statement at this time, Mr. Chairman?
The Chairman. Have you identified the witness ?
Mr. Stripling. I would like to ask him several questions before he
reads the statement.
The Chairman. All right ; go ahead, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Collins, on August 3 the Committee on Un-
American Activities received the testimony of a gentleman by the name
of Whittaker Chambers. During the course of his testimony he stated
that you were a member of the Communist Party, that you were a
member of the Communist apparatus which operated within the Gov-
ernment during the period of 1935. I show you a picture of Whit-
taker Cliambers, and I ask you if you know this individual [showing
Mr. Collins a photograph].
Mr. Chairman, this is a picture taken by the Associated Press, which
appeared in the New York Times of August 4, captioned : "Wliittaker
Chambers telling the House committee he was a Communist from 1924
to 1937."
Do 5' ou know this individual ?
Mr. Collins. I cannot recognize that man.
Mr. Stripling. You cannot recognize this man ? Did you ever know
anybody by the name of Whittaker Chambers?
Mr. Collins. I never knew a man by the name of "\Yliittaker
Chambers.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know an individual known to you as Carl
in 1935 ?
Mr. Collins. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
possible self-incrimination.
The Chairman. May I interrupt?
Mr. Stripling. Did Carl resemble this picture ?
Mr. Collins. I cannot recognize anybody in that picture,
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, for the record, I would like to state
that the picture of Mr. Chambers shows that he is much heavier than
he was in 1935.
The Chairman. First of all, the record will show that Mr. Mundt
is present and Mr. Nixon is present, and a quorum of the full com-
mittee is present.
(At this point the subcommittee merged into the full committee
and the proceedings continued as follows:)
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Collins, did you ever live at St. Matthews Court
in Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Collins. I did.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet John Abt at this apartment?
804 - COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Collins. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
possible self-incrimination.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet Alger Hiss at that apartment?
Mr. Collins. I decline to answer that question for the same reason.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet Lee Pressman at that apartment?"
Mr. Collins. I decline to answer that ques-tion for the same reason.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet an individual kriown to you as
Carl?
The Chairman. Just a minute. What is the reason you have to
give — you will have to give the reason; you cannot say ''the same
reason."
Mr. Collins. The reason that my answer might tend to incrimi-
nate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet an individual knoAvn to you only
as Carl at that apartment?
Mr. Collins. I decline to answer that question on the grounds that
it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet an individual by the name of
Donald Hiss at that apartment?
Mr. Collins. I decline to answer that question on the grounds that
it might incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet an individual known to you as
J. Peters or Alexander Stevens or Isidore Boorstein at that apart-
ment ?
Mr. Collins. I decline to answer that question on the ground that
it might incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet an individual by the name of
Victor Perlo at that apartment ?
Mr. Collins. I decline to answer that question on the grounds that
it might incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet an individual by the name of
Charles Kramer at that apartment?
Mr. Collins. I decline to answer that question for the same reason.
Mr. Stripling. You refuse to state whether or not you ever have
been a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Collins. I do.
Mr. Hebert. On what ground ?
Mr. Collins. On the ground of possible self-incrimination.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet in the apartment of Alger Hiss
on P Street in Georgetown in 1935 ?
Mr. Collins. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
possible self-incrimination. •
Mr. Stripling. May we have your statement now, Mr. Collins ?
The Chairman. Let there be order.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, before the witness reads his state-
ment, I would like to clarify one point. This committee took testi-
mony from Whittaker Chambers in New York in executive session last
Saturday, at which time Whittaker Chambers stated that at the time
he was acting as courier for the Communist apparatus operating be-
tween New York and Washington, that he was not known in party
circles as Whittaker Chambers; that he went under the name of Carl.
In the light of that testimony, Mr. Collins, I ask you, did you ever
know an individual known to you as Carl in 1935 or 1936 ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 805
Mr. Ct)Lr,iNs. I decline to answer that question on the ground of
possible self-incrimination.
Mr. Stripling. I ask that the witness be permitted to read his
statement at this time.
Mr. Hkukkt. Mr. Stripling, I would like to ask the witness to state
again, to the question : Did you know Whittaker Chambers?
Mr. Collins. I do not.
Mr. Hkbert. I direct the committee's attention to the fact that the
witness unhesitatingly says he does not know a man by the name of
Whittaker Chambers as a name under suspicion in the Communist
apparatus; but the witness then refuses to testify as to the name of
Carl, which is admittedly the code name of Mr. Chambers, and it was
not made public knowledge until Mr. Stripling just made it. So the
witness did know why he would not answer to the name of Carl,
and he would have no other way of knowing it except that it was a
code name.
Mr. Stripling. Will you read your statement now, Mr. Collins ?
Mr. Collins. Mr. Chairman, my name is Henry H. Collins, Jr. I
was born in Philadelphia, Pa., in 1905. The first I knew that my
name, or a name similar to mine, had attracted the attention of your
committee was when I read the newspapers last week. I do not remem-
ber ever having met any man named Whittaker Chambers. I have
never engaged in espionage for, nor been an agent of, a foreign powder.
I do not believe in the overthrow of the Government by force or
violence, or by any other means. As far as I know, I have never
violated any "law of the United States. On the contrary, I have
endeavored to the best of my ability conscientiously and actively to
ijerve my country both in peace and war.
Hence my public career of some 15 years. This began under Presi-
dent P'ranklin D. Roosevelt, whose progressive social ideals I espoused
and worked for. Prior to that time I was in private business. My
ancestors came from England to this country in 1640. Members of
my family have served our country in every war since the Revolution,
when one of my great-uncles was an aide to Washington. I myself
volunteered in the last war and spent 2 years in the European theater.
I received a commendation for my work in the Battle of the Bulge,
three ribbons, and five battle stars.
My support of the policies of Mr. Roosevelt is well known, as are
my politics, and my party affiliation is registered properly and I hope
privately in the courthouse of the county where I vote. My chief
outside hobby for the past 10 years has been abolition of the poll tax.
Any system that sends a man to Congress with the votes of only 2
percent of his people does more to undermine Americanism in this
country than anything I know of. To try to correct this evil I have
offered testimony before House and Senate committees over the past
10 years, and I shall be glad to do so again. I trust this blot on our
oountiy will be outlawed by the next Congress.
I resent the fact that my name and the names of others have been
defamed by the unfair methods of this connnittee in publicizing irre-
sponsible accusations. Every person mentioned in these hearings is
pilloried in the headlines from coast to coast even if his connection
with an accuser or an accused is as casual or social as was the visit
of the member of this committee who was a dinner guest at my home.
806 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
I do not believe that a person can effectively protect his good name
before this committee in view of its tactics.
On advice of counsel I shall refuse to answer questions regarding
the accusations which have been made against me and shall rest on the
constitutional rights of every American guaranteed by the fifth
amendment.
The Chairman. We would like to review the record a little bit,
Mr. Collins. You were born in Philadelphia ?
Mr. Collins. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You lived in Philadelphia up to what time ?
Mr. Collins. 1933.
The Chairman. 1933. What is your educational background ?
Mr. Collins. I went to Princeton and Harvard.
The Chairman. You need not be mad about it. Princeton and Har-
vard are pretty good places. [Laughter.]
After you graduated from Harvard, Avliat was your business?
Mr. Collins. I went into business in Philadelphia in the Collins
Manufacturing Co. I was there for 5 years.
The Chairman. And you left them when ?
Mr. Collins. 1933.
The Chairman. 1933. Then what did you do after that ?
Mr. Collins. Then I went with the NRA in late 1933, and was
wath them until 1935, when the NRA was invalidated by the Supreme
Court decision, you will remember, and then I went to the Soil Con-
servation Service in the Department of Agriculture and was there
until 1938, 1 think.
Then I was with the Department of Labor for from 1938 on until I
was loaned to the House committee, which I mentioned earlier, the
House Committee on Interstate Migration of Destitute Citizens.
The Chairman. Who was the chairman of that cominittee ?
Mr. Collins. Congressman John H. Tolan, Congressman from
California.
The Chairman. And you said you stayed with them until, how long?
Mr, Collins. I stayed with them until 1941. Then I went with
the Senate Small Business Committee.
The Chairman. Who was the chairman of that connnittee ?
Mr. Collins. Senator James E. Murray, of Montana.
The Chairman. Then, after that, what did you do ?
Mr. Collins. I w^ent to the Kilgore committee.
The Chairman. After that, what did you do ?
Mr. Collins. I went to the Army, sir.
The Chairman. After you left the Army, wliat did you do ?
The Chairman. Wliat kind of work did you do in the State Depart-
ment ?
The Chairman. What did you do in the State Department?
Mr. Collins. I was on loan there for about 5 months.
The Chairman. What kind of work did you do in the State
Department?
Mr. Collins. Dealt with displaced persons.
The Chairman. Displaced persons?
Mr. Collins. The same kind of work I had done in the Army.
The Chairman. After you left the State Department, what did
you do ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 807
Mr. Collins. I was sent on a mission by the Intergovernmental
Committee on Eefugees to the River Platte countries, Argentina, Para-
guay, Uruguay, and Brazil, in an effort to solicit their cooperation in
accepting displaced persons.
The Chairman. How long did you sta}^ there ?
Mr. Collins. Well, I was in that committee work for about G
months.
The Chairman. After that, what did you do ?
Mr. Collins. Free-lance writing.
The Chairman, What do you mean by "free-lance" writing? What
kind of writing ?
Mr. Collins. Writing a book and articles.
The Chairman. Book on what subject?
Mr. Collins. A handbook on world elections.
The Chairman. What organizations have you belonged to over this
period of time ?
Mr. Collins. On the advice of counsel, sir, I decline to answer that
on the grounds that any answers that I give might tend to incriminate
me.
The Chairman. Well, do you belong — let me ask you the names of
some of the organizations.
Do you belong to the American Legion ?
Mr. Collins. On the advice of counsel I refuse to answer that
question. [Laughter.]
The Chairman. Just tell the committee why you do not care to
answer whether or not you belong to the American Legion?
Mr. Collins. Because, sir, I cannot answer any questions regarding
membership in organizations on the grounds that they might in-
criminate me.
The Chairman. Will you please explain to me how it will incrim-
inate you by admitting that you are a member of the American
Legion ?
Mr. Collins. Sir, I cannot go further than my past answer.
The Chairman. You cannot go further, or you won't go further?
Mr. Collins. I cannot answer that question, sir, on the ground that
it might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. That would incriminate you? It is a hopeless
situation.
Go ahead, Mr. Hebert.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Collins, were you ever investigated by the FBI
for loyalty ?
Mr. Collins. I do not know, sir. I was called down and inter-
viewed by them about 6 years ago, I think.
Mr. Hebert. You know what that interview was. What was it ?
Mr. Collins. Well, it is in the record.
Mr. Hebert. I am not asking for the record. I am asking you.
Mr. Collins. Sir, I do not think I understand the question.
Mr. Hebert. "Wliat was the interview about that you had with the-
FBI 6 years ago?
Mr. Collins. Well, it was on the question of some section of the
law that required them to interview Government employees at that
time.
Mr. Hebert. What section of the law ?
808 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Collins. I do not know, sir.
Mr. Hebert. What questions did they ask you?
Mr. Collins. Well, I cannot remember. It was a long time ago, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Did they ask you about your connection with certain
organizations in Government — I mean outside of Government, but
certain organizations in the countiy ':
Mr. Collins. Yes ; that is the kind of questions that they asked.
Mr. Hebert. Did they ask you about any communistic activity ?
Mr. Coi LiNs. I do not remember, sir.
Mr. Hrbert. a man who is so interested in free elections would not
know if he were asked whether he had any communistic tendencies or
communistic connections ?
Mr. Collins. Six years ago is a long time. I cannot remember
what the questions were.
Mr. H?:bert. Well, about 6 years ago you were worried about free
elections. In other words, Mr. Collins, your attitude is you answer
when you want to, and wher. it embarrasses
Mr. C^OLLiNs. I sincerely do not know what the questions were, sir.
You can get the record from the FBI if you like.
Mr. Hp^bert. That was before the war?
Mr. Collins. It was before I went into the war; it was in 1942,
something like that.
Mr. Hebert. You made the statement that you did not want to
answer questions because they may tend to incriminate you. You did
not want to answer questions of the chairman relative to your organi-
zations. Is that your same attitude relative to individuals?
Mr. Collins. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. Why then did you readily say you never knew a man
named Whittaker Chambers?
Mr. Collins. I^ecause that was a name that was used in the accusa-
tions in the newspapers. I never knew a man named Whittaker Cham-
bers, so I thought I was entitled to say so.
Mr. Hebert. Well, it is in the record that you knew a man named
Carl. Why do you not answer that question ?
The Chairman. Are you consulting with counsel now far advice?
Mr. (\)LLiNS. Not now, sir.
The Chairman. But you just were?
Mr. Collins. Yes.
The Chairman. I want the record to show that he consulted with
counsel.
Mr. Hebert. Why won't you say whether you know Carl or not?
That is in the record.
Mr. Collins. For the same reason, sir, that I refuse to answer any
questions about knowing any individuals at this time in connection
with these accusations.
Mr. Hebert. But you just said you did not know Whittaker Cham-
bers. You are blowing hot and cold. AVhich way do you want to
blow, hot or cold? We have heard a lot of talking out of both sides
of the mouth on this, so we may as well give you a chance to do it. It
is a great acrobatic feat.
How do you justify, then, saying you do not know Wliittaker Cham-
bers ? You did answer that question.
Mr. Collins. I just go back to my previous statements, sir, in con-
nection Avitli that.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 809
Mr. Hebekt. Then you cannot justify it. You said you did not
Avant to identify individuals who were in the record because it may
tend to incriminate you. The name of Whittaker Chambers is in the
record, and you unliesitatinffly said tliat you did not know an indi-
vidual b}' the name of Whittaker Chambers. And in the next breath
you were asked if you knew a man by the name of Carl and you refused
to answer on the irrounds that it might tend to incriminate you. Now,
Ave point out that Carl and Whittaker Chambers are one and the same
man. Now, which attitude do you want to take ^
Mr. Collins. I rest on my statement.
JNIr. Hebert. What is that?
Mr. Collins. I shall rest on my statement.
Mr. Hebekt. What is the statement?
Mr. Collins. I just read it to you, sir.
Mr. Hebert. My mind is very slow. I cannot remember these things
too long.
Mr. Collins. Shall I read it again?
jNIr. Hebert. Certainly. We want the record to show that.
Mr. Collins. My name is Henry H. Collins, Jr.
Mr, Hebert. I do not mean that. You know what I mean, Mr.
Collins. Now, what I mean is — you know what I mean. Will you
answer the question now ?
Mr. Collins. I do not remember ever ha^ang met any man named
Whittaker Chambers. I have never engaged in espionage or
Mr. Hebert. Never mind ; that is enough.
Now, wh}^ do you refuse to say whether you know^ Alger Hiss or
not ? He has made no accusations against you.
Mr. Collins. I refuse to answer that question, sir, on the grounds
that my answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Hebert. All right, Mr. Chairman; the record is made and it
speaks for itself.
The Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Mundt. I Avas called out, ant I did not hear the witness' testi-
mony, so I have no questions.
The Chairman. Mr. McDoAvell.
Mr. McDoAVELL. These felloAvs are all alike.
The Chairman. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Collins, as I understand your answer in regard to
Mr. Hebert's question concerning Whittaker Chambers, it was that
you Avere Avilling to ansAver the question regarding Whittaker Cham-
bers because it was Whittaker Chambers who had made the charges;
is that correct? In other words, that is why you answered the ques-
tion as to Avhether or not you kncAv Whittaker Chambers, because
that Avas the name of the man who Avas supposed to have made the
charges concerning j^ou. Do I understand you correctly on that point ?
Mr. Collins. I think so, sir. Will you go on Avith your question?
Mr. Nixon. Well, it is true that Whittaker Chambers was the man
who appeared before this connnittee, and under SAvorn testimony made
certain charges of which a^ou were aware. The question Avas asked
you as to whether or not you kneAv Whittaker CMiambei'S, and both
in answer to that question and in your statement you stated that you
did not.
Now, it appears this morning that the man who made the charges
Avas knoAvn not only as Whittaker Chambers, but was knoAA^n as Carl,
810 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
and the committee wants to give you an opportunity now to indi-
cate whether or not you know a man by the name of Carl, since it is,
as I say, the record shows that Whittaker Chambers, also known as
Carl, is the man who made the charges. Now, you stated that you
•did not know Whittaker Chambers. Do you also wish to state that
you did not know a man by the name of Carl between the years of
1935 and 1936?
Mr. Collins. As I said, on that I refuse to answer that question on
the grounds of possible self-incrimination.
Mr. Nixon. The man Carl, known as Carl, between 1935 and 1936,
made the accusations against you before this committee ; and I under-
stand your testimony is now that you refuse to answer the question as
to whether or not you knew this man Carl, also known as Whittaker
Chambers, who made these charges ; is that correct?
Mr. Collins. If I understand you correctly, sir ; yes.
Mr. Nixon. That is all.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. I have no further questions.
The Chairman. Do you want to keep this witness under subpena ?
Mr. Stripling. No, sir.
The Chairman. You are excused, Mr. Collins.
The next witness, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Elizabeth T. Bentley.
The Chairman. Miss Bentley. While we are waiting for Miss
Bentley the committee will stand in recess.
(Short recess.)
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. Miss Bentley,
will you take the witness stand, please ?
Will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that
the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth,
.and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Miss Bentley. I do.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling.
TESTIMONY OF ELIZABETH T. BENTLEY— Resumed
Mr. Stripling. Miss Bentley, when did you first go to the Federal
Bureau of Investigation?
Miss Bentley. Sometime in the latter part of August 1945. I
believe it was around the 21st or the 22d.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you report to the FBI ?
Miss Bentley. I went to the field office of the FBI in New Haven,
■Conn.
Mr. Stripling. Why did you go to New Haven ?
Miss Bentley. I was quite terrified then of Russian agents, and
I thought that it would be much too conspicuous to go into either
the Washington office or the New York office.
Mr. Stripling. After you went to the agents of the FBI, did you
subsequently receive a sum of money from an official of the Russian
Government ?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Stripling. Approximately when did you receive this money,
:and where?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 811
Miss Bentley. I would say it was approximately around October
17, 1945, and it was on a street corner, I believe at the corner of
Fourth Avenue and Tenth Street, New York City,
Mr. Stripling. And who handed you this money ?
Miss Bentley. This money was handed to me by a person whom I
knew at that time as Al.
Mr. Stripling. Had you previously met Al ?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I had first met Al in the latter part of October
1944, in Washington.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you meet him in Washington? .
Miss Bentley. At a drug store at the corner of Wisconsin Avenue
and N Street.
Mr. Stripling. What were the circumstances of this meeting with
Al in Georgetown?
Miss Bentley. The meeting had been arranged between Al and
myself by my contact at that time, whose name was Jack, and he
liad made arrangements that I would carry a copy of Time maga-
zine, wear a hat with a red rose on it, as I recall, and Al would come
up to me and say, "Aren't you the Mary I knew in such-and-such
a place?" and I would say, "Yes."
Mr. Stripling. Did you subsequently meet him in Washington at
^ny other time?
Miss Bentley. Yes; I had met him three or four other times in
Washington.
Mr. Stripling. What was the purpose of these meetings in Wash-
ington ?
Miss Bentley. The purpose of these meetings was that I had asked
•Jack to contact me with a higher up leader, as I guess you would call
it, in the espionage ring.
Mr. Stripling. Why did you want to meet someone higher up in
the espionage ring?
Miss Bentley. Because I wanted to straighten out the whole mat-
ter of this espionage ring, and see if I could get myself and others
somehow out of it.
Mr. Stripling. Did you later meet Al in New York prior to receiv-
ing this money ?
Miss Bentley. Yes; I think I first met Al in New York, which
was around about sometime the middle of November 1944; and I met
him on Broadway in front of a movie theater around about One
Hundred and Third Street, I think it was.
Mr. Stripling. What was the purpose of that meeting?
Miss Bentley. Well, that meeting was definitely arranged by Al
through the contact which I was seeing every week or two, whom I
mentioned before, whose name was Jack, and Jack informed me that
Al had some very good news for me, and he said, "He wants to see
you and tell you personally." He said, "You will be very thrilled
by it, and I do not want to spoil his surprise."
Mr. Stripling. You met him at that time ?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I did. I met him in front of the theater and
we started walking toward Riverside Drive.
Mr. Stripling. What did he tell you ?
Miss Bentley. Well, he made a long speech, w^iich I cannot remem-
ber all of, to the effect that the supreme presidium of the U. S. S. R.
812 COAIMUNIST ESPIONAGE
on November 7 had awarded me the Order of the Red Star. This was
in reward for my extremely valuable services to the Soviet Union.
Mr. Stripling. Did he show you the Red Star or the award?
Miss Bentley. No; at that time he said it had not been sent from
Russia, but he did have in his pocket a colored picture of the Red Star,^
which he had torn out of some American magazine — I do not know
which one — and he showed that to me.
Mr. Stripling. Did he show you any other notice or registry regard-
ing the award ?
Miss Bentley. Not at that time, but I would say, roughly, 2 months
later, he turned up with the Red Star in a little box and showed it to
me, let me look at it, and at the same time showed me a little book —
I guess it was about this size [indicating] — which had my name inside
in Russian, and opposite it in Russian the Order of the Red Star and
the date.
Mr. Stripling. When you received this money from Al, you still did
not know who he was ?
Miss Bentley. No; I did not; not at that time; no.
Mr. Stripling. What did he tell you when he gave you the money?
Miss Bentley. Well, it rather dates back quite a time before that,
because from January and Febi-uary 1944 on my Russian contacts —
either Bill or Jack, or later Al — had been trying to pay me off — I guess
is the expression — and had been ijersistently chasing me to take a salary
as a member of the organization. I had refused and tlien they tem-
porarily sidetracked onto trying to give me a fur coat and an air-
conditioning machine, and then, with the advent of Al, had tried, as
I suppose, to bribe me with the Red Star.
But a few months after the Red Star, Al again had started asking
me to the effect that I must be a traitor, that there was something wrong
with me, because 1 would not accept my salary, and he told me that this
salary, although I refused it, was i)iling up in Moscoav on my behalf.
At the time I received the money he had been fairly persistent in
the last few meetings, and at this meeting I met him on the corner of
Twenty-third Street and Eighth Avenue, near that Bickford's cafe-
teria there, and he immediately took me on a long trek toward the
docks in a A^erv deserted region of New York.
The day previously I had spoken to the FBI agent I was in contact
with, had informed him I was meeting this Russian agent, and had
asked for instructions. He said, "Keep in contact with him; don't
let him know that you are suspicious, and do anything which is neces-
sary to keep in touch with us so that we can continue with the job we are
doing." Neither he nor I knew that Al would turn up with $2,000.
We walked along the water front; I was quite upset, because I
assumed, and I am quite sure I am correct, that I did have some of
the FBI agents behind to protect me, but nevertheless it was deserted,
and 1 was terribly u])set by being alone Avith him there. He kejit
pressing me and told me that unless I accepted the money that he had
in his pocket that he would consider me a traitor, and I knew what
that meant.
Finally, I got him away from the dock region, as far as Tenth
Street and Fourth Street, and he gave me the money. I gave him a
receipt for it.
Mr. Stripling. AVhat kind of a receipt did you give him?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 813
Miss Bentley. He liad broiiejht it to me in one of these envelopes,
No. 10 envelopes, and I tore off one corner of it, wrote the date, "re-
ceived $2,000," and signed it "Mary."
Mr. Stripling. What denomination of bills was this money?
Miss Bentley. Twenty-dollar bills.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know whether or not the FBI agents ob-
served this transaction?
Miss Bentley. I have every reason to believe they did. They have
not told me so, but they have not told me lots of other things, of course.
Mr. Stripling. What happened after you received the $2,000 ?
Miss Bentley. After I received the $2,000, I put it in the safe at
my office, and then turned it over to the FBI.
Mr. Stripling. Did you turn it over to two agents ?
Miss Bentley. I turned it over to two agents who transferred it
into a separate envelope, and countersigned their names on it.
Mr. Stripling. Dfd you later meet Al again ?
Miss Bentley. Yes. The last time I met Al was November 20.
Mr. Stripling. Where did that meeting take place?
Miss Bentley. At the same place, Twenty-third Street and Eighth
Avenue, in front of that Bickford's Cafeteria.
Mr. Stripling. Were FBI agents present at that time ?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I observed some of them.
Mr. Stripling. Was Al aware that he was under surveillance ?
Miss Bentley. I do not believe so, because it has been the policy
of Russian agents never to meet anyone when they believe that that
person is under surveillance.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever see him again after that ?
Miss Bentley. No; I did not. I had an appointment with him at
about January 20 of the following year, and he never appeared.
Mr. Stripling. Did you later identify this Al ?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Stripling. And who was he ?
Miss Bentley. His name was Anatol Gromov, and he was a suc-
cessively second secretary and first secretary, I understand, of the
Russian Embassy.
Mr. Stripling. That is all.
The Chairman. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. No questions.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. Stripung. Would you spell that, please?
Miss Bentley. I believe it is spelled A-n-a-t-o-1 and the last name,
I believe, is G-r-o-m-o-v.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDowell. You said. Miss Bentley, this first secretary offered
you, among other things, an air-conditioning machine.
Miss Bentley. No; that was his predecessor, Mr. McDowell, the
one I knew as Bill, who offered me the air-conditioning machine.
Mr. McDow^ELL. That is a rather odd gift. Why would he offer
that?
Miss Bentley. Because it was a very hot smnmer, and I had been
complaining of the heat, and he said, "Now, I have a friend who
has an air-conditioning machine. Why don't you let him get it for
you?"
814 ' COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. McDowell. Also, you said, Miss Bentle}', that he said if yoit
did not accept this money you would be considered a traitor.
Miss Bentley. That is correct.
Mr. McDowell. And you said, "I know wliat that meant." Wliat
did that mean?
Miss Bentley. When you are considered a traitor, it means that
you are in rather grave danger. That was a threat against me.
Mr. McDowell. Thank you, Miss Bentley. That is all I have.
The Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Mundt. Did you ever accept any money from the Russians at
any other time besides this $2,000?
Miss Bentley. No ; the only money I ever had from them was f or
actual expenses, railroad fare.
Mr. Mundt. As I understand it, at that time your meails of liveli-
hood was employment in Russian shipping; was that it?
Miss Bentley. No; it was an American corporation set up as a.
source of income, and I think you would call it, for the Comnmnist
Party. But it was run as a legitimate business.
Mr. Mundt. What was the name of that?
Miss Bentley. The U. S. Service & Shipping Corp.
Mr. Mundt. AVhat was your salary from that corporation?
Miss Bentley. It varied. I think at about in 194.5 it was around
$300, or $350, or $400 a month. In the lean years I had a very low
salary, and when, as it picked up, why, my salary became better.
Mr. Mundt. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. ]\Ir. Hebert.
Mr. Hebert. Miss Bentley, you received this money from the Rus-
sian agent?
Miss Bentley. That is correct; yes.
INIr. Hebert. At that time, you were acting under instructions and
in full cooperation with the Federal Bureau of Investigation?
]\Iiss Bentley. Yes ; that is right. In fact, that was the only con-
sideration under which I would have taken the money.
Mr. Hebert. In other words, you received your instructions on
how to conduct yourself in your continuous contacts with the Rus-
sian agents from the FBI.
Miss Bentley. Yes ; that is correct.
Mr. Hebert. And in meeting the agent, wli}-, you were carrying out
the instructions of the FBI.
Miss Bentley. That is correct; yes.
Mr. Hebert. In other words, to give the FBI an opportunity to
establish contact and tangible evidence.
Miss Bentley. That is correct. I worked for them over a year
and a half after that in an attempt to do something about this matter.
Mr. Hebert. Now, where is the $2,000, so far as you know?
Miss Bentley. As far as I know it is in the hands of the Govern-
ment.
Mr. Hebert. It has never been returned to you?
Miss Bentley. It has never been returned to me; no.
Mr. Hebert. That is all.
Mr. Mundt. That is all.
Mr. Mundt. Mr. Chairman, I have one other question.
In view of the fact that some of the witnesses have endeavored to cast
doubt upon the credibility of Miss Bentley 's testimony. I tliink it is
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 815
tremendously iinportaiit to recognize that we now have something
tangible in which everybody concerned can set his teeth. Two thou-
sand dollars is a tangible sum of money. It either has been handed
by Miss Bentley to the FBI or it has not. That is a matter of record.
I am not going to ask you to name the agents to whom you handed
this money. Miss Bentley, because I realize that the FBI agents operate
witliout benefit of the spotlight of publicity.
I will ask you this, however: AVould you be able, if necessary, to
name the two agents to whom you handed — the two agents of the FBI —
to whom you handed the $2,000?
Miss Bentley. Yes; I would be able td do that.
Mr. Mttndt. You would be able to do that?
Miss Bentley. Yes; I would.
Mr. MuNDT. So that we can confirm that definitely and specifically?
Miss Bextley. Yes; I think if you will get in contact with the FBI^
I think they can confirm that entire story ; yes.
Mr. MuNDT. Thank you.
The Chairman. Eight on that point, the Chair would like to say
that he 'has absolute ccmfirmation that Miss Bentley took the $2,000
and the $2,000 were handed over to the FBI.
Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. No questions, Mr. Chairman.
Tlie Chairman. Do you have any further questions ?
Mr. Stripling. Not at this time.
The Chairman. Do you have anything else you want to say?
Miss Bentley. Just one thing I did want to bring up, Mr. Chair-
man, and that is the question of these personal allegations that have
been brought up against me b}- various witnesses before this com-
mittee.
I would like to make it completely clear that these allegations are
false without any shadow of a doubt. I would also like to call the
attention of the committee to the fact that any person who has left the
Communist movement and has tried to expose it has been subject
to a campaign of slander, which has, as its object, the discrediting
of that witness' testimony.
I feel that I worked for a year and a half with the FBI on this story.
From what they told me, there was no piece of evidence I gave them
which they checked and found wrong. I feel that my story should
stand on its own merits, and I feel that the facts will stand and speak
for themselves.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know of any other former Communists who,
having left the party, have been subjected to a campaign of slander
similar to the one that the Communists are now launching against
you ?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; I do. I know that Mr. Budenz underwent the
same thing, even to the point of where he was accused of stealing
money from the Communist Party treasury, which was false; and
even Mr. Browder, who left the Communist Party and did not attack
it, was subjected to a campaign of the same type of slander that I have
told you about.
The Chairman, i^re there any other questions?
Mr. Nixon. Miss Bentley. I imderstood you to 'av thaf in the year
and a half that you have been workinq: Avith the FBI, and in which the
816 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
FBI has attempted to find discrepancies in your story, they have never
yet found a major discrepancy in anything that you have told them.
Miss Bentley. Yes ; that is correct.
Mr. Nixon. To date.
Miss Bentley. Yes; I have been told by several agents in the
Bureau that they have never found a major discrepancy in any of the
facts which I have told them, and which they have, of course, had a
great opportunity to check.
The Chairman. Are there any other questions?
Thank you. Miss Bentley. You are excused.
Mr. Stripling. That is all.
The Chairman. Are there any other witnesses ?
Mr. Stripling. No.
The Chairman. The Chair would like to announce again that the
first witness tomorrow morning will be George Silverman ; the second
witness will be Charles Kramer; and the committee will stand ad-
journed until tomorrow at 10 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 11 : 50 a. m., the committee adjourned, to reconvene
at 10 a. m. Thursday, August 12, 1948.)
HEARINGS RECtAEDIM COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
THURSDAY, AUGUST 12, 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Special Subcommittee of the Committee
ON Un-American Activities, and the Full
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washingon, D. C.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a. m., in the caucus
room, Old House Office Building-, Hon. J. Parnell Thomas (chairman),
presiding.
Committee members present (subcommittee) : Representatives
J. Parnell Thomas (chairman), John McDowell, and F. Edward
Hebert.
Connnittee members present (full conunittee) : Representatives
Thomas (chairman), Mundt, McDowell, Nixon, and Hebert.
Statf members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator;
Louis J. Russell and Donald Appell. investigators, and A. S. Poore,
editor, for the committee.
The Chairman. The meeting will come to order.
The record will show" that a subcommittee is sitting, consisting of
Mr. McDowell, Mr. Hebert, and Mr. Thomas.
The Chair has two short announcements to make. One is that the
Samarins will be heard by the full committee in executive session in
Washington, D. C.
The second announcement is that the United States attorney for the
District of Columbia visited our offices this morning, visited the offices
voluntarily, and requested and obtained the complete testimony of
these hearings.
The United States attorney, Mr. George Morris Fay. said, among
other things, he was particularly interested in the perjury angle. I
want to take this opportunity to compliment Mr. Fav, not only on his
alertness and energy in coming to us without our having to get in touch
with him, but also for the splendid record that he and his office have
achieved over a period of the past years in bringing these Communists
to trial, and bringing about almost and perhaps a unanimous record of
convictions of all of the Communists that have been brought to trial.
I til ink that his record stands out in Government, and certainly we can
all be very proud of it.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Chairman, may I add to what you have said in
connection with the request of the United States "attorney for the
District of Columbia in voluntarily coming into the office of the Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities to officially take cognizance of the
fact tliat perjury has been committed during these hearings.
80408 — 48 21 817
818 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
I think it most significant, and certainly a refresliing, new develop-
ment from the Department of Justice, in taking cognizance that the
law has been violated before this congressional committee and, too,^
I want to extend to Mr. Fay from this side of the Chair the highest
commendation for his activity. If we got more and similar coopera-
tion from other divisions of the Government that we are receiving in
this instance from Mr. Fay, I am sure that the work of this committee
would be expedited a great deal, and a great deal more would be
accomplished, instead of stumbling blocks and obstacles, if we would
have cooperation so that we could get to the bottom of tliis whole mess
and we would get to the bottom of this whole mess, and it is indeed a
mess, because I reiterate, as I pointed out the otlier day, that the im-
portant thing in this whole matter up to this point, the indisputable
fact is, that perjury has been committed on this stand before a con-
gressional committee.
Now, I do not know, and I do not presume to say, which witness is
lying and which witness is telling the truth. But, I believe, the
American public wants to know who is telling the truth. I am not
taking the attitude of prosecuting, condemning, or finding a verdict at
this time. I want to get at the facts which, I believe, every other
member of the committee wants to get at, the facts in the case.
If any individual has been smeared who is innocent, I am sure this
committee will do everything it can to remove that smear. The only
way we can do it is in an open forum here, with everj^body telling the
truth, and I hope that these perjury charges are prosecuted to a
decision.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling, the first witness.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Charles Kramer.
The Chairman. Mr. Kramer, raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give w^ll be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Kramer. I do.
The Chairman. Sit down,
TESTIMONY OF CHARLES KRAMER
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Kramer, will you please state your full name.
Mr. Kramer. Charles Kramer.
Mr. Stripling. Would you speak into the microphone if you can,
please.
Mr. Kramer, you have previously appeared before this committee
in executive session on July 2, 1948, have you not ?
Mr. Kramer. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. You appeared at that time in response to a subpena
which had been served upon you ?
Mr. Kramer. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. And that subpena was continued in force and effect,
and you are appearing here this morning in response to that subpena ;
is that correct?
Mr. Kramer. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Kramer, what is your present address ?
Mr. Kramer. Arlington, Va.
Mr. vStripling. What is your business address ?
Mr. Kramer. 39 Park Avenue, New York.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 819
Mr. Stripling. What is your present occupation ?
Mr. Kramer. I do research work for the Progressive Party.
Mr. Stripling. How long have you been associated with the Pro-
gressive Party ?
Mr. Kramer. Since March of this year.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever been employed in the Federal Gov-
ernment '(
Mr. Kramer. I have.
Mr. Stripling. Would you give the committee a chronological
resume of your Federal employment ?
Mr. Kramer. I started with the Agricultural Adjustment Adminis-
tration in late 1933, worked with the Consumers Council of that de-
partment, and then helped set up the first farm-labor program under
the Jones-Costigan Act, in the Department of Agriculture.
I then went to work for the National Youth Aclministration in 1935,
and helped set up their student-aid and work-assistance programs. I
then worked as an investigator for the Senate Subcommittee on Civil
Liberties for a year.
Mr. Stripling. During what period ?
Mr. Kramer. 1936 to 1937. Then, after a lapse of about 8 months, I
worked for the National Labor Relations Board in carrying out the
Wagner Act. After that I worked for the Office of Price Admin-
istration.
Mr. Stripling. What year did you go to the — what was the date
that vou Avent to the OPA ?
Mr. Kramer. In 1942. I worked there from 1942 to 1943. In 1943
T went to woik for the Senate Subcommittee on War Mobilization.
Mr. Stripling. Is that the Kilgore committee?
Mr. Kramer. The Kilgore committee,
Mr. Stripling. What was your position there?
Mr. Kramer. Economist.
Mr. Stripling. All right.
Mr. Kramer. Then, with a lapse of about 6 months, I worked for the
Senate Subcommittee on Wartime Health and Education.
Mr. Stripling. Who was chairman of that committee?
Mr. Kramer. Senator Pepper.
Mr. Stripling. During what period was that?
Mr. Kramer. 1945 and 1946.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have, or did you have any other Federal
employment ?
Mr. Kramer. No.
Mr. Stripling. Wliat is your educational background, Mr. Kramer ?
Mr. Kr/^mer. I was educated in the New York City public schools,
received a bachelor degree and master's degree in science at New York
University.
Mr. Stripling. "Wliere were you born ?
• Mr. Kramer. New York City.
Mr. Stripling. "^Vliat year ?
Mr. Kramer. 1907.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Kramer, are jou now or have you ever been a
member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Kramer. I must decline to answer that question in the exercise
of my privilege against self-incrimination under the fifth amendment,
and in the exercise of my privilege under the first amendment.
820 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Kramer, have yon been subpenaed before the
grand jnry, the Federal grand jury, which has been sitting in New
York for the past 13 months ?
Mr. Kramer. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. How many times were you subpenaed before the
grand jury?
Mr. Kramer. Just once.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Elizabeth T. Bentley ?
Mr. Kjiamer. I must decline to answer that question in the exercise
of my privilege against self-incrimination under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Stripling. Miss Bentley, would you rise ?
(Miss Bentley arose.)
Mr. Stripling. Would you stand up, please, and see if you can see
Elizabeth Bentley standing, Mr. Kramer? I ask you if you recognize
this person as a person with whom you are acquainted.
(The witness arose.)
Mr. Kramer. I must decline to answer that question for the same
reason.
The Chairman. You are not even looking at her. How can you
recognize her when 3^011 were not even looking at her? Just look at
her.
Mr. Kramer. I looked at her, Mr. Thomas.
The Chairman. Look at her again and see if you cannot recognize
her. Do you know that person right there [indicating] ?
Mr. Kramer. I must decline to answer that question.
Mr. McDowell. On what grounds ?
Mr. Kramer. In the exercise of my privilege against self-incrimina-
tion under the fifth amendment.
(A flash bulb of one of the newspaper photographers exploded.)
[Laughter.]
The Chairman. The Chair would like to announce that that is all
we needed. Proceed, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Kramer, I overlooked to ask you to identify your
counsel. I believe Mr. Gollobin has been before the committee once
before.
Mr. Kramer. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Would you identify yourself at this time?
Mr. Gollobin. Ira Gollobin.
Mv. Stripling. And your business address?
Mr. Gollobin. New York City.
Mr, Stripling. Mr. Kramer, are you acquainted with Nathan
Gregory Silvermaster?
Mr. Kramer. I must decline to answer that question
Mr. McDowell. On what — go ahead.
Mr. Stripling. Would you state your reason fully, Mr. Kramer?
Mr. Kramer. In the exercise of my privilege against self-incrimina-
tion under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Stripling. Are you acquainted with an individual by the name
of John Abt?
Mr. Kramer. I must decline to answer that question for the same
reason.
Mr. Stripling. Are you acquainted with an individual by the name
of Whittaker Chambers ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 821
Mr. Kramer. I must decline to answer that question for the same
reason.
Mr. Stripling. Are you acquainted or did you know an individual
in 1935 knownto you oidy as Carl, C-a-r-1?
Mr. Kramer. I must decline to answer that question for the same
reason, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Alger Hiss?
Mr. Kramer. I nuist decline to answer that question for the same
leason.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Donald Hiss?
Mr. Kramer. I must decline to answer that question for the same
reason.
Mr. Stripling. Do you knoAv Lee Pressman ?
Mr. Kramer. I decline to answer that question in the exercise of my
jn'ivilege against self-incrimination under the fifth amendment.
Ml'. Stripling. Do you know Victor Perlo ?
^Ir. Kra3her. I decline to answer that question for the same reason.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Kramer, were you present at a meeting in an
apartment in New York Citv occupied bj^ John Abt in the spring of
Mr. Kramer. I decline to answer that question in the exercise of my
privilege against self-incrimination under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Stripling. Who was present at this meeting at Mr. Abt's apart-
ment in the spring of 1944, and what were the subjects of discussion?
Mr. Kramer. I decline to answer that question for the same reason.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever attend a meeting in the apartment of
Mary Price on Eleventh Street off Seventh Avenue in New York
Cit/^
]Mr. Kramer. I decline to answer that question for the same reason.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Kramer, did you give Miss Bentley informa-
tion at various meetings in New York City from Victor Perlo, Edward
Fitzgerald, Donald Wheeler, Allan Rosenberg, Harold Glasser?
Mr. Kra:mer. I decline to answer that question in the exercise of my
privilege against self-incrimination under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever a member of a group known as the
Perlo group ?
Mr. Kramer. I decline to answer that question for the same reason.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know an individual bv the name of William
J. Gold?
Mr. Kramer. I decline to answer that question for the same reason.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know an individual by the name of Joseph
B.Gregg?
Mr. Kramer. I decline to answer that question.
The Chairman. INIay I interrupt for a moment? Let the record
show that Mr. Nixon is present.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know an individual by the name of Julius J.
Joseph ?
Mr. Kramer. I decline to answer that for the same reason.
Mr, Stripling. Do you know an individual by the name of William
L. Ullmann ?
Mr. Kramer. I decline to answer that for the same reason.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever been to the home of Nathan Gregory
Silvermaster at 5515 Thirtieth Street in Washington, D. C.?
822 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Kramer. I decline to answer that question for the same reason.
Mr. Stripling. I have no further questions.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDowell. No questions. •
The Chairman. Mr. Hebert.
Mr. Hebert. No questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Kramer, has Miss Bentley made any charges
against you in these hearings?
Mr. Kramer. I do not know of the character of the charges made,
sir.
The Chairman. You do not know the character of the charges ? But
have any charges been made against you?
Mr. Kramer. I do not know what they are, sir.
The Chairman. You may not know what they are, but have any
charges been made ?
Mr. Kramer. Well, you have the record, sir ; I do not have the record.
The Chairman. I know we have the record, but if charges had been
made you would know it, don't you think ?
Mr. Kramer. Just from what I read in the newspapers.
The Chairman. Yes. Well, have you read in the newspapers that
any charges were made against you?
Mr. Kramer. Yes.
The Chairman. You have read so. And what were those charges ?
Mr. Kramer. I do not recall what the charges were.
The Chairman, You do not recall what the charges were? But
she did make some charges ?
Mr. Kramer. That is right.
The Chairman. Then, you know Miss Bentley, don't you?
Mr. Kramer. I know that charges were made, according to the
newspapers, sir.
The Chairman. By Miss Bentley?
Mr. Kramer. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you want to defend yourself against those
charges ?
Mr. Kramer. I have made a statement — I have answered the ques-
tions to the best of my ability.
The Chairman. Well, I am asking you some new questions now.
Do you want to defend yourself against those charges ?
Mr. Kramer. In the proper forum, sir.
The Chairman. In a public forum ?
Mr. Kramer. I say in a proper forum.
The Chairman. Oh, in a proper forum. What sort of a forum?
Mr. Kramer. Where charges of that sort can be examined properly
by an investigating agency, by a grand jury, or by a court, if necessary.
The Chairman. I see. What charges were made against Mr.
Kramer?
Mr. Stripling. Do you want me to read them all ?
The Chairman. Yes ; read one of two of them.
Mr. Stripling. By Miss Bentley or Mr. Chambers?
The Chairman. It makes no difference which. Were charges made
against you by Mr. Chambers, too, Mr. Kramer?
Mr. Kramer. So I understand from the press.
The Chairman. Now, read one or two of those charges.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 823
Mr. Stripltxg. ISIiss Bentley. in testifying on July 31, in reply to
A question by Mr. Stripling in which he said :
Any other members of the Perlo group?
Miss Bentley. Charles Kramer.
Mr. Stripling. His real name was Charles Krevitsky ; do you know that?
Miss Bentley. I have been told that ; yes.
The Chairman. How about that charge ? Do you deny that charge ?
Mr. Kramer. I decline to answer
Tlie Chairman. No ; your counsel has got — do you deny that charge ?
Mr. Kramer. I decline to answer that charge on the grounds — on
the same grounds that I have given before.
The Chairman. What are those grounds ?
Mr. Kramer. I claim the privilege against self-incrimination under
the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. What is another charge?
Mr. Hebert. You did not mean that when he states the privilege of
self-incrimination, he means against it.
Mr. Kramer. Against it.
The Chairman. What was that charge again, Mr. Stripling?
Mr. Stripling. You want that one again ?
The Chairman. Or another one, either one.
Mr. Stripling. On August 3, Whittaker Chambers testified before
the committee that INIr. Kramer was a member of a group. Communist
apparatus, within the Government. He named members of that group
{IS Lee Pressman, Alger Hiss, Donald Hiss, Victor Perlo, Charles
Kramer.
The Chairman. All right; what have you got to say about that
■charge, Mr. Kramer?
jVIr. Kramer. Nothing, sir.
The Chairman. Well, were you ever a member of such a group?
Mr. Kramer. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds.
The Chairman. What grounds?
Mv. Kramer. I claim the privilege against self-incrimination under
the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. Then, you won't say whether you were a member
of the Communist group or not?
Mr. Kramer. I have given you my answer, sir.
The Chairman. Were you a member of the Communist group ?
Mr. Kramer. I have given you my answer to that question, too.
The Chairman. What was the answer?
]Mr. Kramer. I decline to answer the question, claiming the privilege
against self-incrimination under the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. What organizations have you belonged to in the
last 5 years?
Mr. Kramer. The American Economic Association.
The Chairman. What other organization ?
Mr. Kramer. And the Royal Economic Society.
The Chairman. What others?
Mr. Kramer. That is all.
The Chairman. Did you ever belong to the American Peace Mobili-
zation?
Mr. ICramer. No.
The Chairman. Did you ever belong to any organization that the
Attorney General classified as a Communist-front organization?
824 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Kramer. I cannot say.
The Chairman. Why can't you say ?
Mr. Kramer. I do not know how many organizations he has so
classified.
The Chairman. Then, you did belong to some other organizations.
What are those organizations?
Mr. Kramer. I do not recall any other organizations other than
those I have just given you.
The Chairman. Do you belong to the Communist Party ?
Mr. Kramer. I have answered that question.
The Chairman. You don't care to answer whether you were a
member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Kramer. I have answered that question, sir.
The Chairman. All right. Now, you mentioned Miss Bentley a
few minutes ago, so you must know Miss Bentley or you would not
iiave mentioned her. That is Miss Bentley right over there, is it not,
in the green dress?
Mr. Kramer. I have declined to answer that question on the same
grounds.
The Chairman. Well, Miss Bentley made the charges against you.
Wouldn't you know the person who made the charges against you?
Now, the question is. Would you not know the person who made the
charges against you?
Mr. Kramer. I have answered the question, Mr. Chairman, before.
The Chairman. No; you have not answered it. Would you not
know the person who has made the charges against you ?
Mr. Kramer. I must decline to answer that question.
The Chairman. You must decline to answer that question ?
Mr. Kramer. Yes.
The Chairman. Why ?
Mr. Kramer. I claim the privilege against self-incrimination under
the fifth amendment.
The Chairman. What is the fifth amendment? Now, you must
know what the fifth amendment is. What is the fifth amendment?
Mr. Kramer. The fifth amendment, among other things, guarantees
trial by jury, and also states that no person may testify or is compelled
to testify against his own interests.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Are you an attorney, Mr. Kramer ?
Mr. I^AMER. No, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Have you read the Constitution ?
Mr. Kramer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. You know that is not the fifth amendment then, don't
you ?
Mr. Kramer. I beg pardon ?
Mr. Nixon. You know that the fifth amendment does not read that
way, then, don't you ?
Mr. Kramer. Well, it reads approximately that way.
Mr. Nixon. Aren't you aware of the fact that the fifth amendment
says that a ])erson shall not be compelled, in effect, to give testimony
against himself in a criminal proceeding?
Mr. Kramer. That is correct.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 825
Mr. Nixox. It does not say then that you are not compelled to give
testimony against your own interest; is that correct?
Mr. Kramer. In a criminal proceeding.
The Chairman. Well, this is no criminal proceeding. So, let us
get back to Miss Bentley again.
(The witness conferred with counsel.)
The Chairman. Do you want to discuss this with your counsel?
Mr. Kramer. No.
The Chairman. You mentioned that charges had been made against
you by Miss Bentley, therefore you must
Mr. Krainier. Just a moment, Mr. Thomas. You mentioned those ;
you asked me whether those charges had been made.
The Chairman. Yes; but you admitted that charges had been made.
Mr. Kramer. According to the newspapers they had been made.
The Chairman. According to the newspapers they had been made;
and naturally you would want to defend yourself. Now, who is this
Miss Bentley who made these charges ? That gives you a big opening.
Well, take a look over there again. fFust look, look again, the
lady in the green dress. Is that Miss Bentley?
(Witness looks at Miss Bentley.)
Mr. Kramer. I must decline to answer that question.
The Chairman. Now, wait a minute. Your counsel is giving you
a little advice there. Go ahead, Mr. Counsel, tell him.
Mr. Kramer. Well, I say that you have identified her as Miss
Bentley.
The Chairman. That is Miss Bentley?
Mr. Kramer. You have identified her as Miss Bentley to me, Mr.
Thomas.
The Chairman. I have identified her?
Mr. Kramer. Yes ; you pointed her out as Miss Bentley.
The Chairman. When?
Mr. Kramer. Just a few minutes ago.
The Chairman. Did I say that person was Miss Bentley ?
Mr. Kramer. You did.
The Chairman. I did? Well, do you think it is Miss Bentley?
Mr. Kramer. I must take your word for it.
The Chairman. You will take my word for it?
Mr. Kramer. Yes.
The Chairman, What do you think? Do you think it is Miss
Bentley? Aside from the fifth amendment, the first amendment, and
the rest of the Constitution, is it Miss Bentley?
Mr. Kramer. I would not know of my own knowledge whether it is
Miss Bentley. I state that you have been identifying Miss Bentley.
The Chairman. You know of your own knowledge whether it is
Miss Bentley; is that correct?
Mr. Kramer. That is correct.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Kramer, did you ever, during your service in the
Government, furnish classified documents to any unauthorized people?
Mr. Kramer. I must decline to answer that question.
Mr. Nixon. On what ground ?
Mr. Kramer. I claim the privilege against self-incrimination under
the fifth amendment.
826 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. The record will show that Mr. ]\Iundt is present.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Kramer, you have been with the Government for
approximately how many years? You were in the Government for
approximately how many years ?
Mr. Kramer. About 11 years.
Mr. NixoN. About 11 years. You, of course, recognize that it is
essential for the Government to protect itself against the activities
of espionage agents, do you not ?
Mr. Kramer. I do.
Mr. Nixon. You do. Do you think that every possible step should
be taken to learn the facts about espionage activities so that we can
curb those activities in this country ?
Mr. Kramer. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. And in that interest, of course, it is also essential that
no classified documents be given to unauthorized persons. That is
true, is it not ?
Mr. Kjiamer. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Have you ever given any classified dociunents to any
unauthorized persons then ?
Mr. Kramer. I decline to answer that question. I claim the
privilege against self-incrimination under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Nixon. Now, a moment ago you said that you could only recall
that you belonged during the last 5 years to two organizations. Would
you name those organizations again ? I did not quite get them.
Mr. Kramer. The American Economic Society — American Eco-
nomic Association — and the Royal Economic Society.
Mr. Nixon. And, as I recall your testimony, you said that was all.
Mr. Kramer. To the best of my recollection; yes, sir.
Mr. NixoN. Now, that answer, of course, then, will be interpreted to
mean that you did not belong to the Communist Party during the last
5 years ; is that correct ?
Mr. Kramer. I must decline to answer that question in the exercise
of my privilege against self-incrimination.
Mr. NixoN. Well, the record in that case, Mr. Kramer, does not
speak very well for you. Your answer was a categorical "That is all,"
when you were asked as to what organizations you belonged to. Now,
the implication of that answer pretty clearly is that you were indi-
cating to this committee that you did not belong to the Communist
Party. Now, you have an opportunity to say whether you did or you
did not. Do you still claim that those were the only two organizations
that you belonged to, or did you belong to the Communist Party dur-
ing the last 5 years? Do you want to change your answer, in other
words, to that question ?
Mr. Kramer. I do not want to change my answer to the question.
I am claiming
Mr. Nixon. In other words, you are still saying — go ahead.
Mr. Kramer. I decline to answer the question. I claim the privi-
lege against self-incrimination under the fifth amendment, and I also
claim the privileges of the first amendment on that question.
Mr. Nixon. Do you still stand by your answer, then, that you only
belonged during the last 5 years to the two organizations that you
named ?
Mr. Kramer. My answer was that I belonged to those organiza-
tions, to the best of my recollection.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 827
Mr. Nixox. And that that was all. That is the way the record
reads. Do you want the record to read that way? Do you realize
what the record says, that you are saying to this committee that those
were the only tAvo organizations that you belonged to ? Now, is that
what you want the record to say? This is a material question, Mr.
Kramer, and on this question you can commit perjury. I want you to
know that. Do you want this record to say that those are the only two
organizations that you belonged to? That is the way it reads in the
record. Or do you want to change that answer at this time ?
Mr. Kramer. On that question, I claim the privilege again self-
incrimination.
Mr. Nixox. Well, the record speaks for itself then. You have
I'ef used to change your answer ; you have stated to this committee that
that is all, and in my opinion, in doing so you have committed perjury ;
you have been given an opportunity to change your answer, and you
have not done so.
Now, on the other point which I am interested in, let me say this :
You have indicated that you think it is essential to the security of this
country to do everything that we can to curb espionage activities.
Do you believe that it was in the interests of this country to give to
people, to furnish classified information to agents of the Soviet Gov-
ernment during the war at the time that they were our allies?
Mr. Kramer. I have no opinion on that question.
Mr. Nixox. Well, do you believe — I will put this question this
way — do you believe that it was wrong to furnish classified informa-
tion to unauthorized people or representatives of the Soviet Govern-
ment during tliC war at the time that they were our allies ?
Mr. Kramer. I have no opinion on the question, sir.
Mr. Nixox. You won't say then that it was wrong? You won't
say then that it was wrong even though the law of the country is
jDretty clear that classified information is not to be furnished to any
unauthorized person? You have no opinion on that question?
Mr. Kramer. That is right.
Mi\ Nixox. Do you deny Miss Bentley's charges that you engaged
in espionage activities during the war?
Mr. Kramer. I have answered that question.
Mr. Nixox^. What is the answer?
Mr. Kramer. I decline to answer the question on the grounds
that I claim the privilege against self-incrimination.
Mr. Nixox. And yet you have a real interest in attempting to pro-
tect the security of the country against espionage activities?
Mr. Kramer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixox'. And yet you refuse to answer that question on the
grounds that it might incriminate you? You realize what the record
reads in that case, do you not ?
(The witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Nixox. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairmax. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDowell. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman, but I would
like to say this : That on July 1 or 2, 1 believe, I left my home in Pitts-
burgh and came down here to Washington to take testimony from this
man, as I have done many others, many times. As I recall the testi-
mony, Mr. Stripling, it Avas taken at night; I am not sure. We had
many night sessions.
828 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
After hearing Mr. Kramer then do what he has just done for an
hour or so, that evening I read the opinion of one of the noted col-
umnists of the Nation about this committee's sneering, about it being
publicity mad, and all sorts of things of that kind, and I cannot help
but point out to the c.ommittee, Mr. Chairman, that a couple of years
ago in Canada, the Canadian officials finally rounded up and indicted
and sent to jail a great many people who were engaged in espionage
up there in connection with atomic energy.
An effort was made by the Canadians, of course, to interest the
Americans in this same investigation. It is utterly fantastic and silly
and ridiculous to think that the espionage ring up there stops sharply
at the borders of the United States, when most of the atomic affairs
were going on down here. It is utterly fantastic and ridiculous and
silly that we should sit here day after day while known members of
the Communist Party, who have wormed their way into our govern-
ment, wh.o have sat in high places, drawn the salary that should be
paid to honest, loyal, and patriotic employees. It is fantastic and silly
to sit here and see them sit here and say that they rest upon the United
States Constitution to protect themselves from going to jail.
I would like to point out to Mr, Fay and to the Attprney General,
Mr. Clark, that it is time, in the interests of the American people and
the preservation of the Constitution of the United States, that Mr.
Kramer and these men who liave been associated with him, be properly
drawn into a proper court, if that is what you are l.ooking for. I
would like to promise you, Mr. Kramer, that you are going to get
that. [Applause.]
The Chairman (using gavel). We will have to have more order.
Mr. Hebert.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Kramer, how long did you work for the Federal
Government ?
Mr. Kramer. Approximately 11 years.
Mr. Hebert. Did you sign a loyalty pledge inider oath to the
Federal Government?
Mr. Kramer. I did.
Mr. Hebert. What did that oath of loyalty to the Federal Gov-
ernment say?
Mr. Kramer. I swore to uphold the duties of my office and the Con-
stitution, as I recall it.
Mv. Hebert. You swore to uphold the duties of your office and the
Constitution of the United States?
Mr, Kramer. That is right.
Mr. Hebert. Which embraces all the laws and statutes attendant
upon the Constitution of the United States?
Mr. Kramer. That is right.
Mr. Hebert. Did you sign Form 57 in applying for your position
with the Government ?
Mr. Kramer. I believe so.
Mr, Hebert. Well, you know you did. Now, you believe so. Did
you or did you not sign it ?
Mr. Kramer. If that is the usual form of application for employ-
ment; yes.
Mr. Hebert. That was a direct question. In Form 57, which you
know you did sign, it asks: "Are you a member of the Communist
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 829
Party ^" What Avas your reply to that direct question on Form 57,
which you had to sign before you became a Government employee?
Mr. Kramek. I do not recall.
Mr. Hebert. Before you could become employed by the Federal
Government, you had to sign what is known as Form 57. You had to
answer every question, and among the questions was a direct question :
"Are you a member of the Comnumist Party?" Now, what did you
sign to that direct question ?
Mr. Kramer. I do not recall my answer to that question.
Mr. Hebert. You do not remember what you signed ?
Mr. Kramer. That is right.
Mv. Hebert. Well, if you were a member of the Communist Party,
you knew it, didn't you ? Didn't you ?
Mr. Kramer. If I were ; yes.
Mr. Hebert. If you were ?
Mr. Kramer. I said if I were; yes.
Mr. Hebert. Then, you woulcl know it.
Mr. Kramer. I would know it.
Mr. Hebert. Then, what did you sign?
Mr. Kramer. I do not recall what I signed.
Mr. Hebert. Well, then, you did not know whether you were a
member of the Communist Party or not ? Of course you knew. I am
merel}^ paraphrasing 3njur own reactions. Do you want this com-
mittee to believe that such an important question would escape your
memory right now as to how you signed it ?
Mr. Kramer. I do not recall the answer to that question.
Mr. Hebert. If you were a member of the Communist Party, then
you signed "Yes.'' Did you not do that?
Mr. Kramer. I don't recall the answer to that question.
Mr. Hebert. If you were a member of the Communist Party, then
3^ou. of necessity, had to sign. "Yes," would you not ?
Mr. Kramer. I do not recall the answer to that question, I said.
Mr. Hebert. If you were not a member of the Communist Party,
then you would, of necessity, have had to answer, "No."
Mr. Kramer. That is true.
Mr. Hebert. That is true. Why didn't you answer "that is true"
when I asked you if the same question had been put to you as to
whether you were a member of the Communist F'arty? The question
was the same. I said if you were not a member of the Communist
Party, j^ou would answer "No." You said, "That is true." I asked
you if you were a member of the Communist Party, you would have
to answer "Yes," and you said you don't remember. That is correct,
is it not ?
Mr. Kramer. That is correct.
Mr. Hebert. You signed a loj^alty pledge, too, did you not?
Mr. Kramer. That is correct.
Mr. Hebert. A few minutes ago, Mr. Nixon asked you an opinion
on the violation of the laws of this country, and you said you had no
opinion, as to whether it was right or wrong to violate the law.
Mr. Kramer. Of course, it is wrong to violate the laws.
Mr. Hebert. Well, then, it is wrong then if anybody gave informa-
tion to an unauthorized person.
Mr. Kramer. Yes ; it is wrong.
830 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Hebert. Then, you change your answer from "No opinion" to
the fact that it is wrong and a violation of the law ?
Mr. Kramek. Any violation of the law is wrong.
Mr. Hebert. I did not ask you that. I said, then, you change your
answer from that you liave no opinion to that if you did give unau-
thorized information, or any person gave information to an unauthor-
ized person, it was wrong, and a violation of the law.
Mr. Kramer. That is right.
Mr. Hebert. So, you now have an opinion on that. And if you or
anybody else did give information to an unauthorized person, you
violated the oath of loyalty that you signed under oath ; is that correct ?
Mr. Ejiamer. If I had done so, it would be correct.
Mr. Hebert. And if you did violate that pledge and that oath, you
have committed a crime against the Government of the United States ;
is that correct ?
Mr. Kramer. If I had done so, that is correct.
Mr. Hebert. If you have done so, that is correct.
In a war against England, would you defend the United States ?
Mr. Kramer. I would do whatever my country called on me to do.
Mr. Hebert. What is that?
Mr. Kramer. I would do whatever my country called on me to do.
Mr. Hebert. I said in a war against England, would you defend the
United States?
Mr. Kramer. My answer is that I would do everything that my
country called on me to do.
Mr. Hebert. You can answer that question "Yes" or "No." I said in
a war against England would you defend the United States?
Mr. Kramer. I would do anything that my country called on me to
do, sir.
Mr. Hebert. In a war against France would you defend the United
States?
Mr. Kramer. The same answer.
Mr. Hebert. In a war against France would you defend the United
States ?
Mr. Kramer. The same answer.
Mr. Hebert. Eepeat it.
Mr. Kramer. I would do anything that my country called on me
to do.
Mr. Hebert. In a war against Italy would you defend the United
States?
Mr. Kramer. I would do anything my country called on me to do.
Mr. Hebert. In a war against Kussia would you defend the United
States ?
Mr. Kramer. I would do anything my country called on me to do.
Mr. Hebert. Now, tell me, Mr. Kramer, which country do you con-
sider yours?
Mr. Kramer. The United States.
Mr. Hebert. Then why did you not answer the questions directly
before ? Would you defend the United States in a war against Russia ?
Mr. Kramer. I would defend the United States.
Mr. Hebert. It would have been much easier if you would have
.answered the questions directly before.
Mr. Kramer. All of those are direct answers to the question.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 831
jNIr. Hebert. We are trying to find out wliich country you owe
allegiance to.
Mr. IvRAMER. I owe allegiance to this country and to the people in it.
Mr. Hebert. Have you always kept that allegiance ?
Mr. Kramer. I certainly have and my record of employment with
the Government shows that.
Mr. Hebert. Well, then why won't you answer the questions if you
owe allegiance to your country and no other country ?
]\Ir. Ivramer. I have answered the questions to the best of my ability.
Mr. Hebert. To the best of your ability is not the best of your ability
Avhen you refuse to answer on the grounds of self-incrimination. Now,
you know or you don't know Miss Bentley. Why don't you answer the
question?
Mr. Kra:mer. That answer is as much a protection of the innocent
as it is of the guilty, and this is not the forum for it.
Mr. Hebert. This is no forum ; this is no trial, and we are not trying
you.
Mr. Kramer. You are trying me ; that is the whole point.
]Mr. Hebert. We are trying to give you an opportunity to defend
yourself and in the same forum in which you are accused.
Mr. Kramer. This is no forum for accusations and charges.
Mr. Hebert. This is a forum for fact finding, and that is what we
are trying to do — find the facts — and you won't help us to find the facts.
Mr. I^{AMER. You are not trying to get the facts. You are making
a circus to show up what Congress has not been doing for the people;
that is what you are doing.
Mr. Hebert. If you want to make political speeches ■
Mr. Kramer. What do you think the speeches that have been made
heretofore have been ?
Mr. Hebert. We are trying to find out whether you are engaged in
an espionage ring in the United States, and you won't answer.
Mr. Kramer. I have told you that I have answered to the best of
my ability in these questions.
Mr. Hebert. The best of your ability is that you won't answer,
because if you will, you will incriminate yourself as well as your
confreres.
Mr. Kr.\mer. You can draw any implication that you want from
that, but that is a protection of the innocent, remember that.
Mr. Hebert. I am not drawing the implication.
Mr. Kramer. You are drawing the implication.
Mr. Hebert. Yes; because we know you did, and you know it, and
you know you sold your Government down the river, and you know
it will be proved if ever the proper authorities show the desire to
prosecute.
Mr. Kramer. The proper authorities have been acting in this case,
have they not? Why don't you trust the proper authorities?
Mr. Hebert. We are trying to make the proper authorities do their
duty.
The Chairman. I think we will have to calm down a little bit, to get
down to a quieter tone.
Mr. Hebert. Now, again I ask you, Mv. Kramer, and I ask you not
to answer the question for me. but answer to the entire American
public which is interested, and has a right to know who is telling
832 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
the truth and who is not telling the truth. I ask you again, Do you
know that lady there ? [Indicating Miss Bentley.]
Mr. Kramer. I have answered that question.
Mr. Hebert. That is the question, then, that we go beyond the
confines of this committee and tell the American people, and tell
them that you will not identify the lady because she incriminated —
the lady has charged that you have participated in an espionage ring
against the Government. You don't answer to me. Now, answer to
the American public. That is a good forum.
Mr. Kramer. Well, you might answer to the American public, too.
The Chairman. The Chair will have to insist that the witness
answer the question, the question by Mr. Hebert, which was, "Do you
knoAv that lady there?"
Mr. Kramer. I have given the answer to that question.
The Chairman. Miss Bentley, stand again, please.
(Miss Bentley arose.)
The Chairman. Now, do you know that person ?
Mr. Kramer. I have answered that question before.
The Chairman. What is your answer now ?
Mr. Kramer. I decline to answer the question. I claim the privilege
against self-incrimination under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Hebert. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chairman. You made the point that the fifth
amendment is for the protection of the innocent. I gather that
your point there is that you are innocent; is that correct?
Mr. Kramer. I have made the general point, sir.
Mr. Nixon. I see. In other words, you are using the fifth amend-
ment as a defense because you are innocent. I just want to see why.
Mr. Kramer. You draw auy inference you want from that, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Are you innocent ?
Mr. Kramer. I have stuck to my — to the answers to those questions,
sir.
Mr. Nixon. Are j-ou innocent of the charges that have been made?
Mr. Kramer. I have answered all of those questions.
Mr. Nixon. Tlien, it is pretty clear, I think, that you are not using
the defense of the fifth amendment because you are innocent. You
could answer that question very simply. You are either innocent oi-
you are not innocent.
Mr. Kramer. I have answered those questions, sir.
Mr. Nixon. I think the record speaks pretty clearly on that point,
Mr. Chairman. That is all.
The Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Mundt. How did you first secure employment with the Govern-
ment, Mr. Kramer?
Mr. Kramer. Througli a Democratic district leader.
Mr. Mundt. Through his recommendation?
Mr. Kramer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mindt. Can you supply that name for the record?
Mr. Kramer. I do not recall the name, sir.
Mr. Mundt. You do not recall the name? What were the cir-
cumstances of your leaving the Government ?
Mr. Kramer. I think the appropriation for the committee for which
I was working gave out.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 833
Mv. MuxDT. Wliicli committee was that?
ISir. Kramer. The Subcommittee on Wartime Health and Echication.
Mr. MuNDT. I coukl not hear you, I am sorry.
Mr. Kramer. The Subcommittee on Wartime Health and Educa-
lion.
Mr. MuxDT. Who Avas the chairman of that conmiittee?
Mr. Kramer. Senator Pepper.
Mr. MuxDT. The appropriation gave out, and the committee Avas
dissolved?
Mr. Kramer. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. I do not know whether you have been asked the ques-
tion— I came in late — where you are presently employed.
Mr. Kramer. The Progressive Party.
Mr. MuNDT. You know Henrj^ Wallace?
Mr. Kramer. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know Henrv Collins?
]Mr. Kramer. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds
I have given before.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you believe that a Communist should be employed
in the Federal Government?
j\Ir. Kramer. I have no opinion on the subject.
Mr. MuNDT. Does the party to which you owe allegiance and for
wjiich you are a working member have any opinion on that question?
Mr. Kramer. I do not know.
Mr. MuNDT. You do not know? Surely an employee of the Pro-
gressive Party should know, and you know" that for which the part}'
stands, do you not ?
jNIr. Kramer. I do not know whether it has taken any stand on that
subject or not.
Mr. MuNDT. Then, 3'ou have no stand of your own on it?
Mr. Kramer. I have no opinion on it at this point.
Mr. MuxDT. If you were an official in the Federal Government, that
you have been — Lo ! These many years — with being a party in power,
would you knowingly appoint Communists to work under you m the
Federal Government ?
Mr. Kramer. I would consider a person's employment in terms of
his abilit^^ I would not inquire into his race or creed or political
affiliations.
Mr. MuNDT. Fi'om that, I assume, your answer is yes, that if it were
a man of ability, if he were an able Communist, you would knowingly
employ him under your department in Government ; is that right ?
Mr. Kramer. I would not inquire into his political affiliations.
Mr. MuNDT. Would you be concerned at all about his loyalty to the
American Government ?
Mr. Kramer. Yes; I would.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you think he could be loyal to the American Gov-
ernment and be a Communist at one and the same time?
Mr. Kramer. I do not see why he could not.
Mr. MuNDT. You see no reason why he could not. Ai-e you familiar
with the tenets and practices and the record of the Communist Party;
are you?
Mr. Kramer. No. sir.
80408-48 22
834 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. MuNDT. What makes yon think he could be loyal? Is this
correct, then, that the extent to which you would safeguard the in-
terests of the United States in a high position in the Federal Gov-
ernment would simply be to appoint somebody who appears to you
to be able, regardless of his
Mr. Kramer. And loyal.
Mr. MuNDT. You would inquire into his loyalty. How would you
check into his loyalty? What would he have to do to be disloyal in
your opinion? What rule of thumb would you use to determine his
loyalty ?
Mr. Kramer. That is hard to say.
Mr. MuNDT. You would say, "You are a loyal citizen, are you not ?"
and he would say, "I decline to answer on the ground of self-incrim-
ination"; you would appoint him then?
Mr. Kramer. I don't know whether I would or not.
Mr. MuNDT. The probability is that you might?
Mr. Kramer. I don't know.
Mr. MuNDT. You don't know. You have been an adviser, you say,
to Senator Pepper's committee. He must have asked your advice on
several occasions. Did you always say, "I cannot recollect, I cannot
remember, I stand on my constitutional rights?" If you did that I
am afraid you secured your salary from the Federal (xovernment
under false pretenses. We are just trying to find out the facts.
I want to know from your mind what you think are the criteria to
determine a person's loyalty to this country.
Mr. Kramer. His devotion to his work.
Mr. MuNDT. Earl Browder is devoted to his work. Do you con-
sider him loyal ?
Mr. Kramer. I have no information on the subject so I couldn't
answer the question.
Mr. MuNDT. Hans Eisler is very devoted to his work. Do you con-
sider him loyal?
Mr. Kramer. I have no answer.
Mr. MuNDT. Benedict Arnold was very devoted to his work. Do
you consider him loyal?
Mr. Kramer. He was proven disloyal.
Mr. MuNDT. That is the onlv criterion you have then, that a man
be loyal to his work, devoted to his work ; if he is, he is loyal to his
Government ; is that right ?
Mr. Kramer. That would be a good rule of thumb criterion. The
work, of course, encompassing work for the people of this country.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Cliairman, I am so bewildered by the attitude of
this witness that I certainly have no further questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling. .
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Kramer, do you know Dr. Harry Dexter White?
Mr. Kramer. I must decline to answer that question and claim the
privilege against self-incrimination.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Lauchlin Currie?
Mr. Kramer. I must decline to answer that question for the same
reason.
Mr. Stripling. Do ,vou know Irving Kaplan?
Mr. Kramer. I nuist decline to^ answer that question for the same
reason.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Solomon Adler ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 835
Mr. Kramer. I must decline to answer that question for the same
reason.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Norman Bursler ?
Mr. Kramer. I must decline to answer that question for the same
reason.
Mr. Striplixo. Do you know Frank B, Coe?
Mr. Kramer. I must decline to answer that question for the same
reason.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Sonia Gold?
Mr. Kramer. I must decline to answer that question.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Abraham G. Silverman ?
]Mr. Kramer. I must decline to answer that question.
Mr. Stripling. That is all the questions I have, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Kramer, you will remain under subpena and
you are excused at this time. Make certain that either you or your
attorney keep Mr. Stripling informed as to where you can be reached.
You are excused.
Next witness.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Silverman.
The Chairman. Mr. Silverman, please stand and raise your right
hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. SlLY-ERMAN. I clo.
The Chairman. Sit down.
TESTIMONY OF ABRAHAM GEORGE SILVERMAN
Mr. Stripling. Will you please state your full name.
Mr. Silverman. Abraham George Silverman.
Mr. Stripling. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. Sil^^rman. I am.
Mr. Stripling. Will you have counsel identify himself, please?
Mr. Jaffee. Bernard Jaffee, 52 Broadway. New York, N. Y.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Silverman, when and where were you born ?
Mr, Sil\t.rman. Poland, in 1900.
Mr. Stripling. What is your present address ?
Mr. Silverman, 255 West Twenty-third Street, New York.
Mr. Stripling. What is your present occupation ?
Mr. Silverman. I am presently unemployed.
Mr. Stripling. What was your last employment ?
Mr. Sil-^-erman. I was an executive for a large specialty store in
charge of research and plans.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever employed in the Federal Govern-
ment ?
Mr. SiLVER3iAN. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Will you give the committee the various positions
you have held with the Government?
Mr. Silverman. The last position I held with the Federal Govern-
ment was that of economic adviser and Chief of Analysis and Plans',
Assistant Chief of Air Staff, Materiel and Services, Air Forces. I
held that position from March 1942 to August 1945.
836 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The position I held j^rior to that was Director of the Bureau of Re-
search and Information Services, United States Raih-oad Retirement
Board. I held that position from 1936 until 1942.
Prior to that I was special negotiator for the United States Trade
Agi-eement, United States' Tariff Commission. I held that position
from November 1935 through March 193G, I believe.
Prior to that I was chief statistician of the Labor Advisory Board
of the United States National Recovery Administration. I held that
job from the fall of 1933 to the middle of 1934.
Those were the jobs that I held with the Federal Government.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know an individual by the name of Nathan
Gregory Silvermaster?
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel I decline to answer that in the
exercise of my privilege against self-incrimination under the fifth
amendment.
Would it be possible for me to read a statement ?
Mr. Stripling. It will be possible when we get to it.
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel I decline to answer that ques-
tion.
Mr. Stripling. As to whether or not you know Nathan Gregory
Silvermaster?
Mr. Silverman. In the exercise of my privilege against self-in-
crimination under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Stripling. When you were employed in the War Department
did you have access to classified material ?
Mr. Silverman. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Who was your immediate superior in the War De-
l^artment?
Mr. Silverman. Gen. Bennett Meyers.
Mr. Stripling. Did he recommend you for the position?
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel
Mr. Mltndt. I was interested in your answer to the previous question.
Mr. Stripling. He said Gen. Bennett ]Meyers was his superior.
Now, I ask you did General Meyers recommend you for the position
you held?
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that ques-
tion, exercising my constitutional privilege against self-incrimina-
tion under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Elizabeth T. Bentley ?
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that ques-
tion.
Mr. Stripling. Miss Bentley, will you stand up, please ?
Will you stand up, Mr. Silverman, and look at this lady standing
and tell me whether or not you can identify her as Elizabeth T. Bentley.
(Miss Bentley and Mr. Silverman arose.)
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that ques-
tion in the exercise of my constitutional privilege against self-in-
crimination.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever know her under any other name ?
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel I i-efuse to answer that ques-
tion in the exercise of my constitutional right against self-incrimina-
tion under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Silvei-man, are you now or have you ever been
a member of the Communist Party ?
COMMUNIST ESPIOXAGE 837
Mr. Silverman'. On advice of counsel I decline to answer that ques-
tion in the exercise of my constitutional privilege against self-incrimi-
nation under the fifth amendment and also under the first amendment.
Mr. Stkiplix(j. Have .you ever been in the home of Nathan Gregory
Silvermaster at 5515 Thirtieth Street NW., in AVashington, D. C. ^
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel I refuse to ans^wer that ques-
tion in the exercise of my constitutional privilege against self-incrimi-
nation under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Silverman, during the course of your official
duties with the War Department, did you have access to reports re-
lating to the B-29, the production figures concerning aircraft, loca-
tion of aircraft plants, the names and types of aircraft, and the loca-
tion and construction of aircraft material?
Mr. SIL^^:RMAN. I refuse to answer that question on the same
grounds.
The Chairman. What grounds?
Mr. Silverman. In the exercise of my constitutional privilege
against self-incrimination.
]Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I am going to ask Mr. Eussell to
ask liim if he is acquainted with certain inclividuals.
Mr. Silverman. I would like to make my statement.
Mr. Stripling. Just a moment and I think the committee will be
glad to receive your statement.
Mr. Eussell. Do you know William Ludwig Ullmann ?
Mr. Silverman. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds — that is, in the exercise of my privilege against self-
incrimination.
Mr. Russell. When Mr. Ullmann entered officer training school,
did you recommend him to the United States Army ?
Mr. Silverman. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds— that is, in the exercise of my constitutional privilege against
self-incrimination.
Mr. Russell. Did Mr. Ullmann furnish your name as a reference
when he entered officer training schools ?
Mr. Silverman. I refuse to answer that question on the same
grounds.
The Chairman. What grounds? You will have to say what
grounds.
Mr. Silverman. In the exercise of my constitutional privilege
against self-incrimination under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Russell. Do you know Edward J. Fitzgerald ?
Mr. Sil^terman. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds.
The Chairman. What grounds? You will have to say what
grounds.
Mr. SIL^^RMAN. In the exercise of my privilege against self-incrimi-
nation under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Russell. Do you know Joseph B. Gregg?
Mr. Silverman. I refuse to answer that question on advice of coun-
sel in the exercise of my constitutional privilege against self-incrimi-
nation.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever met Joseph B. Gregg ?
838 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Silverman. I decline to answer that question on the advice of
counsel in the exercise of my constitutional privilege against self-
incrimination under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Russell. Do you know Ruth Gregg?
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel in this context I refuse to
answer that question in the exercise of my constitutional privilege
against self-incrimination under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Russell. Do you know Maurice Halperin ?
Mr. Silverman. In this context on advice of counsel I refuse to
answer that question.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever met Maurice Halperin ?
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel in this context I refuse to
answer that question in the exercise of my constitutional privilege
against self-incrimination under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Russell. Do you know Irving Kaplan?
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that ques-
tion in the exercise of my constitutional privilege against self-in-
crimination under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Russell. Do you know William H. Taylor ?
Mr. Silverman. In this context, on advice of ccninsel I decline to
answer that question.
Mr. "Russell. Do you know Donald Niven Wlieelev?
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel, I decline to answer that
question in the exercise of my constitutional privilege against self-
incrimination under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Russell. Are you acquainted witli or liave you ever met Harry
D.White?
Mr. Silverman. In this context on advice of counsel I refuse to
answer that question in the exercise of my constitutional privilege
against self-incrimination under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Russell. Do you know Allan Rosenberg?
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that ques-
tion on the same grounds.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you know Henry Wallace?
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that
question.
Mr. MuNDT. Why ?
Mr. Silvi:rman. On the same grounds.
Mr. MuNDT. I asked you tlie question if you knew Henr}^ Wallace
and I didn't hear you answer the question.
Mr. Silverman. I said on advice of counsel I decline to answer
that question in the exercise of my constitutional privilege against
self-incrimination.
Mr. MuNDT. I would like to know what there is about the record of
Henry A. Wallace, who has been Vice President of the United States,
Secretary of Agriculture, and Secretary of Commerce and presently
running for the office of President of the United States as a nominee
of the newest political party in this country, Avhat is there about Henry
Wallace which would make it self -incriminating for you to admit
knowing him if you do? The country would be interested in that.
Mr. Silverman. My statement would make that clear.
Mr. Mundt. I am not interested in your statement at this time. I
want to know what there is about the recoi-d of Henry Wallace that
COMAIUXIST ESPIONAGE 839
you know that might make it self-incriminating for you to admit
knowing him.
Mr. SiLVERiSiAN. Absohitel}' nothing at alL
Mr. MuNDT. How do jou know there is nothing if you don't know
him ?
Mr. Silverman. I read about him in the newspapers like everybody
else.
Mv. MuNDi\ What is there that would make you reluctant to admit
knowing him ?
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that ques-
tion in the exercise of my' constitutional privilege against self-in-
crimination under the fifth amendment.
Mr. MuNDT. You consider it, then, a means of possible self-incrim-
ination to admit knowing a former Vice President of the United
States and a candidate for President ?
Mr. Silverman. In this context I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. MuNDT. You want your record to stand there that you think
it might be possible self-incrimination ?
Mr. Silverman. In this context I refuse to answer that question on
advice of counsel.
Mr. MuNDT. Very Avell.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Silverman, are you acquainted with Solomon
Adler?
Mr. Silverman. In this context on advice of counsel I refuse to
answer that question in the exercise of my constitutional privilege
against self-incrimination under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Russell. Are you acquainted with Norman Bursler?
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that ques-
tion on the same ground.
Mr. Russell. Are you acquainted with Frank Coe ?
Mr. Sil\^rman. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that ques-
tion on the same grounds.
Mr. Russell. Are you acquainted with or have you ever met Lauch-
lin D. Currie?
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that ques-
tion on the same grounds in this context.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Silverman, did you ever hold any meetings at
your apartment which were attended by Veet Bassie, Irving Kaplan,.
Harry Magdoff , or Edward J. Fitzgerald ?
Mr. Silverman. I refuse to answer that question in the exercise of
my privilege against self-incrimination under the fifth amendment and
also under the first.
Mr. Russell. Did you ever carry or convey any packages of any
description whatsoever to the home of Nathan Gregory Silvermaster ?'
Mr. SIL^'ERMAN. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that ques-
tion in the exercise of my constitutional privilege against self-incrimi-
nation under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Silverman, do you know Irving Russell?
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that ques-
tion.
Mr. Hebert. Do you know anything about Irving Russell that would.
make it self-incriminatory for you to know him ?
840 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that ques-
tion.
Mr. Hebert. For your information, Irvino; Russell was just made
up in my mind light now. I don't know any such man, either. I just
wanted to find out how ridiculous you were going to become.
Mr. Silverman. I Avould like to explain in terms of the context.
Mr. Hebert. You will have a chance to explain. In other words,
you just don't talk.
Mr. Silm!:rman. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that ques-
tion.
Mr. Hebert. Have you learned any other lines besides those? Will
it incriminate you to admit whether you have learned any other lines ^
Mr. Sil\Ti:rman. I refuse to answer that question.
Hr. Hebert. On the grounds that it might be self-incriminating?
Mr. Silverman. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. That is just a mental test. I wanted to find out about
your intellectual ability.
Mr. Mundt. I have a question for you, Mr. Silverman. Who recom-
mended you to your first position in Federal euiployment ? What was
the circumstance by which you went from private life to Federal
employment ?
Mr. SiLATi;RMAN. I became chief statistician of the Labor Advisory
Board on the recommendation of Dr. Leo Wohlman, presently of Co-
lumbia University, with whom I had been associated in the National
Bureau of Economic Research in New York.
Mr. Mundt. Did you say Leo Wohlman was president of Columbia?
Mr. Silverman. Dr. Leo Wohlman, now of Columbia University,
with whom I had been previously associated in the National Bureau of
Economic Research.
Mr. Mundt. How did you get your position with the National Bu-
reau of Economic Research ?
Mr. Silat>:rman. My recollection is he asked me
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Silverman. By application and by recommendation of profes-
sors on the basis of my record and technical and economic professicmal
skills.
Mr. Mundt. Could you identify any other people who recommended
you for employment ?
Mr. Silverman. Prof. Frank Taussig, Prof. Ednuuid Gay, Prof.
John H. Williams.
Mr. Mundt. They gave you written recommendations or verbal?
Mr. Silverman. My understanding is it was not done that way. I
applied for the position and recommendations weren't supplied
directly.
Mr, Mundt. What were the circumstances, then, by which you
moved from that position, which was your first one in the Federal
Governuient, to the second position, which you said you held in the
Federal Government?
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that ques-
tion in this context as explained in the stateuient of mine and in the
exercise of my constitutional privilege against self-incrimination.
Mr. Stripling. I suggest he read his statement first before any fur-
ther questions.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 841
Mr. MuNDT. One question before that. Did the witness testify that
lie at one time was employed by the Resources Protection Board?
Mr. Silverman. The which ?
Mr. Stripling. Not this witness. -Mr. Victor Perlo.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Perlo ^
Mr. Stripling. Yes,
Mr. Silverman. May I read the statement?
The Chairman. You may proceed with your statement, Mr. Silver-
man.
Mr. Silverman. My name is A. George Silverman, and my present
residence is in the city of NeAV York. I am 48 years of age, and a
citizen of the United States.
I hold the degrees of S. B., A. M., and Ph. D. from Harvard
University, and M. A. from Stanford University. Prior to 1933
I taught economics and statistics and did economic research in some
of the leading educational institutions in the United States. From
1933 until August of 1915 I held responsible technical and admin-
istrative positions in various agencies of the Federal Government^
including the National Recovery Administration, the Railroad Retire-
ment Board, and the Army Air Forces.
I am deeply shocked by the charges leveled against me, the setting
in which they have been made, and the course wdiich this investiga-
tion has taken. For more than a year a special grand jury has been
sitting in the city of New York listening to the same charges w^hich
have been presented at these hearings. I appeared and testified freely
before that grand jury in September 1947. I did so, conscious of
my own innocence, of my steadfast devotion to our country and its
principles. I was deeply thankful for our heritage of constitutional
due process of law — for a legal system designed to present the publica-
tion of malicious slanders against innocent individuals, to prevent
the vilification of their characters without indictment and trial in
open court where they would be afforded full opportunity to confront
and cross-examine their accusers.
Yet, now, incredible slanders have been given wide publicity in
the absence of indictment. I, among others, have been vilified. The
doctrine of guilt by association has been carried to its extreme. The
same stroke of the brush which has been used to smear me was used
to smear Dr. Lauchlin Currie, whose high-minded attachment to the
principles of our Constitution, selfless devotion to duty, outstanding
loyalty, and service in a critical period of our Nation's history are
matters of public record.
I consider these charges to be politically motivated. I am con-
vinced they are designed to discredit the program of the Roosevelt
administration by pointing the finger of accusation against so many
of those who have supported its program and devoted years to its
realization. These charges are calculated to conceal the achieve-
ments of that administration beneath a shroud of falsehood. In
my opinion, they have been made at this time in order to divert the
eyes of the Nation from the failure to meet the pressing needs of
the American people for economic security, for protection against
the high cost of living, for safeguarding their liberties.
My own conscience is clear. I am a loyal American citizen, de-
voted now, as always, to the principles upon which this Nation was
founded and upon which it has grown and developed to greatness.
842 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
I am proud of my humble contribution to the welfare of the American
jjeople, proud of my record as a public official, proud of the fact
that I was one of the first civilians in the Army Air Forces to receive
the Award for Exceptional Civilian Service, signed by the Secretary
of War.
I am innocent of any charges of espionage or other criminal con-
duct. With regard to my accuser, who has done me such irreparable
harm, I am compelled to conclude that only a mind distorted by fear
or greed or deej) frustration could construct an edifice of such mon-
strous falsehood.
In the light of these circumstances and in view of the fact that the
New York grand jury has not been dismissed, and this committee has
indicated that a special grand jury may be convened in the city of
Washington, my defense against the malicious charges requires the
use of those provisions written into the Constitution of the United
States precisely in order to protect the innocent against the peril of
persecution. Upon advice of counsel, I shall assert my right to refuse,
on the basis of my constitutional privilege against self-incrimination
under the fifth amendment, further to testify on matters relating to
the charges which have been leveled against me.
The Chairman. Now, Dr. Silverman, in your statement you state
that 3'ou are innocent of any charges of espionage.
Mr. Silverman. Yes.
The Chairman. That is a correct statement, is it not ?
Mr. Silverman. Yes.
The Chairman. In the next sentence you say "with regard to my
accuser." Did you mean the person who accused you of espionage?
Mr. Silverman. The person who made the accusations against me at
these hearings.
The C'hairman. The person who made the accusations against you.
Well, who is that person?
(Witness confers with his counsel.)
.Mr. Silverman. There was only one such person as far as the
newspapers are concerned : Miss Elizabeth T. Bentley.
Mr. Nixon. I raise the specific point that counsel can advise the
witness on his constitutional rights, but counsel is not here to tell the
-witness what answers to make to the questions. Botli of the last times
counsel was giving the witness the answer to the question. From now
on he should advise the witness as to his rights in each case.
Mr. Jaffee. That is all I am doing.
Mr. Nixon. You just told the witness to give the answer to the
question in each case. You have no right to do that before this
•committee or before the courts.
The Chairman. We will start all over again.
Mr. Silverman. Yes.
The Chairman. You said you are innocent of any charges of
espionage.
Mr. Silverman. Yes. ,
The Chairman. You are innocent, are you not?
Mr. Silverman. Yes.
The Chairman. Then in the ne^t sentence you say, "with regard
to my accuser."
Mr. Silverman. Yes.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 843
The Chairmax. Who accused you and made the charges of
■espionage?
Mr. SiLA-ERMAX. Miss Elizabeth T. Bentley in the hearings before
tliis committee.
The Chairman. I see.
Mr. Silverman. According to the newspapers.
The Chairman. Would you know Miss Bentley if you saw her ?
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that
The Chairman. No.
Mr. Silverman. I know her now.
The Chairman. You know her now.
Mr. Silverman. Yes.
The Chairman. Will 3'^ou stand, and Miss Bentley, you stand? Is
that Miss Bentley as you know her ?
Mr. Silverman. She says she is and you say she is, so she must be.
The Chairman. Is that Miss Bentley — you know her ?
Mr. Silverman. She says she is and you say she is.
The Chairman. Do you say she is ?
Mr. Sil^^rman. I do not know.
The Chairman. You do not know ?
Mr. Silverman. I do not know.
The Chairman. I thought j'ou said a few seconds ago that you did
know who your accuser was.
Mr. Silverman. I knew the name of my accuser.
The Chairman. Did you see any pictures of her in the newspapers,
as well as reading about her ?
Mr. Silverman. Innumerable pictures.
The Chairman. Did those pictures look like that person ?
Mr. Silverman. Sometimes yes, perhaps, and sometimes no, perhaps.
The Chairman. In your opinion did the pictures look like that
person ?
Mr. Silverman. She had many aspects in those pictures. I cannot
answer.
The Chairman. Do you think that is Miss Bentley ?
Mr, Silverman. Yes.
The Chairman. You think it is Miss Bentley ?
. Mr. Silverman. She says she is and you say she is.
The Chairman. She hasn't said anything. Do you. think it is
Miss Bentley ?
Mr. Silverman. I am told it is Miss Bentley.
The Chairman. But you say you think it is Miss Bentley ?
Mr. Sil%^rman. I think it is Miss Bentley.
The Chairman. Do you know it is Miss Bentley ?
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that ques-
tion in the exercise of my constitutional rights.
The Chairman. You know it is Miss Bentley, don't worry about
that.
Mr. Nixon.
Mr. 'Nixon. Mr. Silverman, you are deeply shocked by the charges
made against you ?
Mr. Silverman. Yes.
Mj\ Nixon. The implication of that is that the charges are false. Is
that correct ?
844 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Silverman. Yes.
(Witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Silverman (answering again). Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Is that your answer, "Yes" i
Mr. Silverman. The answer is still "Yes."
Mr. Nixon. You are innocent of the charge of espionage, you state
specifically ?
Mr. Silverman. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. You, of course, recognize that other charges were made
also by Miss Bentley?
Mr. Silverman. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. One of the charges made was that you gave restricted
documents to unauthorized people. Is that charge false?
Mr. Silverman. Yes.
Mr. Nixon, You never gave to Miss Bentley or any other person
any restricted documents?
Mr. Silverman. I never gave any certified material to any person^
any unauthorized person.
Mr, Nixon. Will the re]:»orter please read that answer back?
(Answer read by reporter.)
Mr. Nixon. You never gave to Miss Bentley any restricted
documents ?
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that
question.
Mr. Nixon. You have already answered the question, INIr. Silverman.
You have indicated that you didn't give any restricted documents to
any person. Now "any person" includes Miss Bentley, Do you want
to change that answer now ?
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel
(Witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nixon. It is too late to change the answer, counsel.
The Chairman. Let the witness go ahead.
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that
question.
Mr. NixON. The record stands that you have now testified that you
gave no restricted information to any unauthorized persons.
(Witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Silverman. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. Another charge Miss Bentley made Avas that you gave
information concerning the breaking of the Soviet code to Mr. Silver-
master. You have said these charges are false. Is that charge false?
Mr. Silverman. Upon advice of counsel I refuse to answer that
question in the exercise of my constitutional i)riA'ilege against self-
incrimination under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Silverman, you have stated in this statement of
yours, which will be spread in the newspapers tomorrow, that Miss
Bentley made false charges, that they are all false, and that she is
a liar. And, yet, when I ask you as to whether or not a specific charge
she made — I have asked about two specific charges — you refuse to say
whether those charges are false.
Mr. Silverman. My statement has made my position perfectly clear
with respect to that general proposition.
Mr. Nixon, Are all the charges made by Miss Bentley false?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 845
Mr. SiLVEKMAx. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that
question.
(Witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Nixon. Do you want to take that particular portion out of your
statement, do j'ou ?
Mr. Silverman. No.
Mr. Nixon. Then your statement does say the charges made by Miss
Bentley are false. You realize that, do you ?
(Mr, Silverman confers with Mr. Jaffee.)
Mr. SiLX'ERMAN. The statement speaks for itself.
Mr. Nixon. Since the statement speaks for itself
The Chairman. I would like to say, ]\Ir. Counsel, let the witness
iinswer these questions. Don't whisper in his ear every time that he
"wants to answer.
Mr. Jaffee. I have no intention of doing that. I was simply ad-
vising him.
Mr. MuNDT. Regardless of your intention, you have been doing it.
I have been watching what you said and the witness has parroted every-
thing you said. Wait until the witness consults you.
Mr. Jaffee. I will be glad to do that.
Mr. MuNDT. Conform your actions to your intentions.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chairman, two of the major charges that have been
made concerning Mr, Silverman by Miss Bentley were (1) that he gave
information concerning the impending breaking of the Russian code
to Mr. Silvermaster, and (2) , that he gave to Miss Bentley confidential
information which he obtained in his official position.
He has made the statement, and I quote from that statement, "I am
innocent of any charges of espionage or criminal conduct." Both of
the charges made by Miss Bentley would constitute criminal charges.
And 3'et when this witness is asked whether or not he will say that
those specific charges are false and that he is innocent of those specific
charges he refuses to answer.
Under the circumstances I think it is quite clear that this witness has
no facts whatever which he is willing to give to this committee and
to the country proving his charge that Miss Bentley's statements are
false. That is all.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDowell. Dr. Silverman, did you know prior to D-day the
day D-day would occur on ?
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that ques-
tion in the exercise of my constitutional privilege against self-incrim-
ination under the fifth amendment.
Mr. McDowell, Dr, Silverman, did you ever make a bet or win
any money on the day D-day would occur"?
Mr, SiL\'ERMAN, On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that ques-
tion in the exercise of my constitutional privilege against self-incrim-
ination under the fifth amendment,
Mr, McDowell, Did you ever discuss with any person the creation
of the B-29 plane?
Mr, Sil-verman. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that ques-
tion in the exercise of my constitutional privilege against self-incrim-
ination under the fifth amendment.
846 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Chairman, you have been on this committee
for a long time. We have all observed its activities for a long time.
I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if you can tell me if any person ever accused
of beinga Communist came before this committee who was poor and
didn't. have enough to eat or who was oppressed. Where do they get
this stuff that communism comes out of the slums and out of poverty
and out of oppression? We have had a constant parade of those ac-
cused of being Communists who were doctors of law, doctors of philo-
sophy, high Government officials, colonels, majors, captains, lieu-
tenants.
I have nothing more, Mr. Chairman, other than this: It appears
to me that all of the great educational institutions of this country
that have the power of conferring great honors, higher honors thaii
I have ever attained, on men should develop some method of withdraw-
ing these honors.
The Chairman. Mr. Hebert.
Mr. Hebert. Dr. Silverman, I read a part of your prepared state-
ment in whicli you mention — there is one paragraph before but I will
pass it because you will get the context of what I am asking you, and
I hope on advice of counsel you don't refuse to agree with what you
have read already and say that it might incriminate you.
Speaking of the indictment, you say :
* * * aud trial in open court where tliey would be afforded full opportunity
to confront and cross-examine tlieir accusers.
Do you believe in that' principle?
Mr. Silverman. I certainly do.
Mr. Hebert. Do you believe that any accused should be faced by
their accuser and given an opportunity to deny that accusation in open
court ?
Mr. Silverman. I do.
Mr. Hebert. Stand up. Dr. Silverman, please.
(Dr. Silverman arose.)
Mr. Hebert. Miss Bentley, please stand.
(Miss Bentley arose.)
Mr. Hebert. Dr. Silverman, you are now before the greatest open
court in this coinitry, I believe, beyond the confines of any limited
courtroom in this country. You are now in the presence of probably
1,000 or more people in this committee meeting room. You are in the
presence of an invisible audience of millions of American people who
listen to the radio. You are in the presence of millions of American
people who see moving pictures. You are in the presence of com-
petent and able representatives of the American press, which is free.
I now tell you, Dr. Silverman, you are facing Miss Elizabeth T.
Bentley, who may be known to you under the name of Elizabeth T.
Bentley, or ]:)erhaps under the name of Mary or under the name of
Helen. I tell you, Dr. Silverman, that this lady standing here, whom
I have described by name, accuses you in open court before the Ameri-
can people of being an esi:)ionage agent, or ratlier of having given her
secret documents, confidential documents. Avhich you. Dr. Silverman^
obtained through your connections with the Army Air Forces. She
accuses you of disloyalty to your Government, and she tells you that
you were untrue to your trust.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 847
You face your accuser, Dr. Silverman. What is your answer? Is
she telling the truth or isn't she telling the truth, and do you recognize
her?
Mr. Silverman. In my opinion, she is telling a huge web of lies.
]Mr. Hebert. You tell Miss Bentley here — that is contradictory now
to the fact that you refused to answer because it might incriminate
you. Are you waiving that now?
Mr. Silverman. With respect to the charge of espionage and any
other criminal conduct I waive.
Mr. Hebert. You waive any charges right now
(Mr. Silverman confers with Mr. Jaffee.)
Mr. Hebert. Wait a minute. You can answer by yourself. You
are a doctor of philosophy and had access to all this. You don't need
to have anybody tell you Avhat to do. You didn't ask advice of counsel
when you handed these documents to Miss Bentley, did you?
Miss Bentley has made these charges and you are familiar with
them. Now, you have your opportunity in open court to tell this lady
that you have never seen her before, that you have never received any-
thing from her, that you never knew her as Helen, Mary, or Eliza-
beth Bentley, and tell her that she never gave you any documents that
were confidential or in violation — rather, that she — you have got me
confused — [laughter] — that yf)u. Dr. Silverman, never handed to her
any documents, and you further tell her that you never gave docu-
ments to any unauthorized person with the intent and purpose of
transporting them to other unauthorized persons.
Now, you have got your cjiance.
Mr. Silverman. That is too complex. I do not consider this to
be a court.
Mr. Hebert. You are hedging. You asked for an open court. I
am giving it to you.
The Chairman. Let him go ahead.
Mr. Silverman. I didn't ask for an open court. I asked for a
court.
On advice of counsel, I refuse to answer that question in the exercise
of my constitutional privilege against self-incrimination under the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Hebert. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Mundt. Did you say in answer to a previous question that you
"were once serving under the authority of Gen. Bennett Myers?
Mr. Silverman. Yes.
Mr. Mundt. Did you testifj' in court during the trial of Gen. Bennett
Myers ?
Mr. Sil\ti:rman. No.
Mr. Mundt. You did not testify. In your prepared statement j-ou
list a long record of things of which you are proud, but at no place
do you say you are proud of any of your associates. When we ask you
about any of your associates jmu refuse to answer on the ground that
it might be seif-incriminating.
jSIr. Silverman. Yes.
Mr. Mundt. Don't you think that the average American citizen is
proud of his^associates and his friends ?
848 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Silverman. I have explained that in this context that is the
way it appears to me, and on advice of counsel in the exercise of my
constitutional privilege against self-incrimination I refuse to answer
the question.
Mr. MuNDT. You were in a position in Government — if you were
in a position in Government where you had appointive j)ower, would
you api^oint a known Communist to serve in the Federal Government ?
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that ques-
tion in the exercise of my constitutional privilege against self-incrimi-
nation under the fifth amendment and under the first amendment.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you believe that a man can be a Communist and a
loyal American citizen at the same time?
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that ques-
tion in the exercise of my constitutional privilege against self-incrimi-
nation under the fifth amendment and under the first amendment.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you believe a man can hold a responsible Federal
position and have dual loyalty to his country and another country at
the same time?
Mr. Silverman. On advice of counsel I refuse to answer that ques-
tion under the first amendment and in the exercise of my constitutional
privilege against self-incrimination under the fifth amendment.
Mr. MuNDT. When you entered the Government employment did
you make known to your employers the doubt that exists in your mind
as to whether a man can be a Communist and a loyal American public
servant at tlie same time ?
Mr. Silverman. I must decline to answer that question on advice
of counsel in the exercise of my constitutional privilege.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Chairman, those are all the questions I have to ask
the witness, but I want to read something into the record at this point
as the result of some independent research in connection with the testi-
mony of Victor Perlo, who testified, I believe, that he was employed by
the Resources Protection Board.
Mr, Stripling. He was employed, Mr. Mundt, by the War Produc-
tion Board. We are prepared to show, however, that ]Mr. Perlo was
given access to the data which were in the Resources Protection Board —
all of which was secret.
Mr. Mundt. I think, then, the country, which has an intensive inter-
est in this whole situation and the existence of this espionage ring, and
the fact that people who are either admitted Communists or wlio refuse
to deny that they are Communiss have held these important positions,
should also know something more about what employment means in
the Resources Protection Board.
I have a photostatic copy here of the way in which the Resources
Protection Board operated, the part it played in government, and the
various accesses it had to secret information, and a short statement
describing it — describing the activities of the Resources Protection
Board. I want to read that into the record at this time. It reads :
The photostated sheets presented to the Board for its judgment after the
orijiiiial information had been refined and checked by the staff, were sheets
about 24 by IS inches. They showed, for example: (1) Location of all important
plants in the manufacture of aviation gasoline and fuel oil going back to the
manufactine of the indispensable chemicals necessary fen- the cracking process;
(2) the percentage of the total United States production from each plant; (3)
the unit volume fi-om each plant; (4) the future schedule of production from
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 849
each plant: (5) notation of increasing need for the product if that were the
situation; (G) finally a symbol —
indicating the position the plant phiyed in our whole i^reparedness
program —
Some of these meant that if tlie plant at the location specified were knocked out,
a certain proportion of the industry would be dead. In some major industries,
the linockinj? out of one plant which would require 12 months to rebuild would
have killed the entire production of that industry for that period of time.
These photostated sheets are now kept in the Pentagon, probably in the
Library of the Army Intelligence, are still secret and are used by the Army in
planning for defense.
In short, tlie Resources Protection Board data, if possessed by an enemy,
would save enemy espionage agents months and years of work, would be about
90 percent reliable for a war starting tomorrow, and could be kept about 95
percent accurate by continuing work in the United States. Probably the only
sensitive data not carried in this information is the atom bomb. Even the
location of jet engine production and, equally important, the locations of the
critical components could be estimated with fair accuracy from the documents,
I think that the country — and I agree with Mr. Hebert that in hear-
ings of this type the people comprise the court, the people of America
have to decide whether legislation is needed to keep ])eople of this
type from holding secret positions in Government. We are not a
court of law ; we are not endeavoring to convict these people and place
them in jail, but we are trying to bring before the people of America
a situation existing, a situation which has been brought in by sworn
testimoi^y, all of which has been corroborated even to the point of the
transfer of money, and I want to call attention finally to the fact that
Mr. Perlo, the Victor Perlo who had access to the information which
I have just read, is the same Victor Perlo who, when having called to
his attention the laws of perjury, scratched out of his testimony before
this committee that portion of his testimony which denied that he
had been guilty of the charges made.
I think the country should know those facts.
The Chairman, Are there any more questions to ask this witness,
Mr. Nixon ?
Mr. Nixon. No.
The Chairman. Mr. Hebert?
Mr. Hebert. No.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell ?
Mr. INIcDowELL. No.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling ?
Mr. Stripling. I have no further questions.
The Chairman. Is this witness under subpena?
Mr. Stripling. He is.
The Chairman. Do you want him to remain so ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
The Chairman. Then, if either the counsel or witness will inforrr^
Mr. Stripling where he can be reached
Mr. Stripling. We will give him 48 hours' notice.
The Chairman. We will give you 48 hours before we call you again.
You are excused.
Mr. Mundt. Mr. Chairman, before we recess, I would like to make a
brief report as chairman of the subcommittee, that Mr. Samarin is
now in Washington, so we will hear him in Washington instead of
80408 — 48 23
850 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
New York. It will be in executive session in the regular connnittee
room at 2 o'clock.
The Chairma^st. The Chair would like to say that Mr. Samarin will
be heard by the full committee. The Chair would like to make this
announcement. The witnesses for Friday are Harry Dexter White,
Lauchlin Currie, Donald Hiss, Dr. and Mrs. Bela Gold, Frank Coe.
This comprises the full list of the witnesses who have requested that
they be heard.
I just want to say this : There seems to be an impression that this
investigation or these hearings may end soon. That is as far from the
truth as you can possibly imagine. This investigation and these hear-
ings and executive hearings will be continued, and continued until we
get to the roof of the situation, until we are either able to prove or
disprove that an espionage ring exists in the United States.
I want to add that many persons whose names have not yet been
mentioned, persons high in Government, persons high up in the mili-
tary, will be called before this committee at an early date.
We stand adjourned until tomorrow at 10 a. m.
(Whereupon, at 11:55 a. m., an adjournment was taken until 10
a. m. Friday, August 13, 1948.)
HEAKINGS REGARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
FRIDAY, AUGUST 13, 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. G.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a. m., in the caucus
room, Old House Office Building, Hon. J. Parnell Thomas (chairman)
presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives J. Parnell Thomas,
Karl E. Mundt, John McDowbH, Richard M. Nixon, and F. Edward
Hebert.
Staff members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator;
Louis J. Russell, William A. Wlieeler, investigators ; Benjamin Man-
del, director of research, and A. S. Poore, editor, for the committee.
The Chairman. The meeting will come to order. The record will
show that a quorum of the fidl committee is present. Those present
are Mr. Mundt, Mr. McDowell, Mr. Nixon, Mr. Hebert, and Mr.
Thomas.
Mr. Stripling, the first witness.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Lauchlin Currie.
The Chairman. Lauchlin Currie. Mr. Currie, will you stand and
raise your right hand, please ?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God %
Mr. Currie. I do.
The Chairman. Sit down.
TESTIMONY OF LAUCHLIN CURRIE
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Currie, will you please state your full name and
present address.
Mr. Currie. Lauchlin Currie, 165 Gaylor Road, Scarsdale, N. Y.
Mr. Stripling. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Currie. I was born in 1902 in Nova Scotia, Canada.
Mr. Stripling. What is your present occupation ?
Mr. Currie. My present occupation is business executive in the ex-
port-import business in New York City.
Mr. Stripling. Would you give the committee a resume of your
educational background ?
Mr. Currie. If I might. Mr. Counsel, I should request to make a
statement in which I set forth my background, experience, and full
statement relating to the various charges that have been made with
851
852 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
a full explanation of the circumstances, and I would appreciate very
much if I were permitted to make that statement.
The Chairman. Mr. Currie, we will be glad to look over your state-
ment and if your statement is pertinent to the inquiry or to your de-
fense, we will be pleased to have you read the statement.
First, however, we would like to identify you.
Mr. Stripling will ask a few questions.
Mr. Stripling. Will you state your educational background?
Mr. Currie. I took my undergraduate work in London University,
England; did my graduate work at Harvard University; took my
Ph. D in economics there, and taught at that institution.
Mr. Stripling. In your statement, do you set forth your Federal
employment ?
Mr. Currie. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that he read his statement
at this time if it is agreeable to the committee.
The Chairman. May we see the statement?
. Go ahead, Mr. Currie.
Mr. Currie. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, my name
is Lauchlin Currie; I reside at 165 Gaylor Eoad, Scarsdale, N. Y.
I appreciate this opportunity afforded me by the committee to ap-
pear at my request and to answer false statements and misleading
suggestions which have been made concerning me in prior testimony
before this committee.
First, some facts concerning my background and history. I was
born in 1902 in Nova Scotia, Canada. My father, a Canadian citi-
zen, was of Scottish descent. My mother, nee Alice Eisenhauer, also a
Canadian citizen, is of German descent. In 1911 and again in 1918
my family spent the year in the United States where I attended school.
I took my undergraduate university work at London University and
then came to Harvard in 1925 where I did my graduate work and re-
ceived my Ph. D. and remained as a teacher of economics. Shortly
after coming to Harvard I took out my first papers applying for
United States citizenship. My naturalization was completed in 1934.
While at Harvard I was offered a position in the Treasury Depart-
ment. In 1931 1 accepted it and came to Washington, where I worked
under Mr. Marriner Eccles until he was made Chairman of the Fed-
eral Reserve Board later in that year. I went with him to the Board
as assistant director of research.
In 1939 I was appointed by President Roosevelt as Administrative
Assistant to the President with special duties in the field of economics.
I retained that position until 1945, during which time I was sent twice
to China to confer with Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek. During part
of this period, in 1943^4, I concurrently held the office of Deputy
Administrator of the Foreign Economic Administration. In early
1945, on behalf of the Secretary of State, I headed a wartime trade
and financial mission to Switzerland.
In 1945 I resigned from Government service to enter private busi-
ness and I am now president of Lauchlin Currie & Co., engaged in the
export-import business, with offices at 565 Fifth Avenue, New York.
My name has been brought into the proceedings before this commit-
tee through the testimony of Miss Elizabeth Bentley and Mr. N. Greg-
ory Silvermaster. Miss Bentley admitted to you that she had never
met me and had never seen me and had never had any communication
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 853
with me. The statements made by her about me were, as noted by
Congressman Rankin, liearsay tliree times removed. I, on my part,
wish to assert unequivocally that I never met, saw, nor had any com-
munication with Miss Bentley. The first time I ever heard her name
was when I learned of the testimony which she gave the committee.
I understand that there is no accusation that I am or ever have been
a Communist. Nevertheless, I welcome this opportunity to state again
under oath, as I did before the Federal grand jury, convened in the
Eastern District of New York to investigate the charges similar to
those before this committee, that I am not and never have been a Com-
munist, a member of the Communist Party, a believer in the tenets or
doctrines of connnunism and that I have never been affiliated with
any organization or group sympathetic with the doctrines of com-
munism or engaged in furthering that cause. I have never had any
reason to believe that any friends of mine or even acquaintances or
associates were Communists.
I understand that there are three charges made against me: First,
that I stated to A. G. Silverman that the United States was about to
break the Russian code, information which he is said to have reported
to N. Gregory Silvermaster, who in turn reported it to contacts of
hers in the Russian Government. The second charge is that I was
used by persons acting with Miss Bentley on behalf of a Communist
spy ring to place or protect persons in that ring in positions in the
United States Government. Xhis charge specifically relates to my
alleged interference to save N. Gregory Silvermaster in an investiga-
tion which threatened his tenure in Government office. The third
charge is that I disclosed "inside information" about China to persons
named by Miss Bentley.
First, as regards my alleged communication to A. G. Silverman.
I knew both Silverman and Silvermaster under circumstances which
I shall relate. I wish at this point, however, to deny emphatically
that I ever stated to Silverman, Silvermaster, or anyone else that the
United States was about to break the Russian or any other code. I
did not know during the war, nor do I know now, that any branch
of the Government or of its military forces attempted to or was about
to break the Russian code. I knew nothing and I know nothing about
whatever work was done in connection with our own or foreign codes.
It is obvious that it would lend a note of plausibility to the story of
code-breaking to attribute it to someone on the White House staff.
I have stated that I knew both Silverman and Silvermaster. My
work as Administrative Assistant to the President was in the field
of economics. In the course of this work I not only came in contact
with all, or practically all, the economists in the Government, but
was called upon to work with them, to give them advice, to express
opinions regarding their competence, and to deal with such inter-
departmental matters as came into the White House involving eco-
nomic matters and economic personnel. Other assistants to the Pres-
ident had similar duties in connection with legal matters, with
political appointments, and with civil servants, and all of us found
that we were continually given as references by the persons with
whom we came in contact. During my tenure in the Foreign Eco-
nomic Administration I had several hundred economists working
under me. I mention this to make clear that, while I knew some of
854 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
the persons mentioned in the testimony before you, I also knew lit-
erally hundreds of economists throughout the Government.
I first met N, Gregory Silvermaster in lO-lO. At the direction of
the President I was looking into a reported mutiny aboard ship.
The Maritime Labor Board designated N. Gregory Silvermaster, of
whom I had never heard previously, to supply the required informa-
tion. My work with him was quickly concluded and my only re-
maining impression of it was that he was entirely competent. No
question of loyalty arose or entered my mind. I had no further
official contact with Mr. Silvermaster, but between 1940 and 1945 saw
him several times at social gatherings at which there were always
several people present.
In June 1945, an official of the Board of Economic Warfare tele-
phoned me to say that Mr. Silvermaster was working for the Board
on loan from the Department of Agriculture and that the Board had
received from Army Intelligence a copy of a report which, if sub-
stantiated by the facts, made his employment undesirable. They
asked me to inquire whether this report constituted the Army's final
opinion. I understand that Mr. Silvermaster states that he saw
and talked with me about this matter. I have no recollection of
such a conversation, although it may have occurred. In accordance
with the White House customary procedure in such matters, I re-
ferred this inquiry to the War Department. I did this by tele-
phoning the Under Secretary of War, Judge Robert P. Patterson,
told him of the situation, and asked him to have the matter reviewed
to make sure that the report represented the considered judgment of
the Department. I, myself, made no recommendations or any in-
vestigations. I did not see the report or know of its contents since
it was not my duty or function to do any of these things.
I am also informed that it has been stated before this committee
that there were at that time adverse reports on Mr. Silvermaster
in the files of the Civil Service Commission, the FBI, and in those
of the Naval Intelligence. I did not know at that time, nor did I
know until the testimony before this committee, of the existence of
any such reports, or of any reports other than the War Department
report.
Judge Patterson subsequently telephoned to me to say that the
matter had been reviewed and that in the judgment of the Depart-
ment the statements made in the report were not substantiated and
that the report was being withdrawn. According to the letter from
Judge Patterson to Mr. Milq Perkins which has been inserted in the
record of these hearings. Judge Patterson stated :
I have personally made an examination of the case and have discussed it
with Maj. Gen. G. V. Strong, G-2. I am fully satisfied that the facts do not
show anything derogatory to Mr. Silvermaster's character or loyalty to the
United States, and that the charges in the report of June 3 are unfounded.
These are the facts of the case. Upon the basis of these facts
the charge is made before this committee that I "interceded" for
Mr. Silvermaster and that this intercession resulted in an improper
disposition of the case. Such a charge is false on the facts and a
calumny both upon me and Judge Patterson as well as the officer
who wtjs the Chief of Army Intelligence. While statements from
me as to my own character would be unfitting, I can state emphati-
cally that any person who knows Judge Patterson or General Strong
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 855
knows the absurdity of the suggestion that they would permit, much
less yield to, political or other pressure in a matter concerning the
security of the United States.
I recall one further fact in connection with Mr. Silvermaster which
should be mentioned. At one time I was asked by an investigator, I
believe from the Civil Service Commission, regarding my opinion of
Mr. Silvermaster's loyalty to the United States. I replied that, so far
as I knew, he was a loyal public servant. I do not recall having recom-
mended him for any post.
I first met A. G. Silverman when I was a graduate student at Har-
vard and he was an instructor of economics at the Massachusetts Insti-
tute of Technology, I was familiar with his work as a scholar and a
teacher and believed that his technical competence was outstanding.
We renewed our acquaintance after I came to Washington when he
was an official of the Railroad Retirement Board. Except for a brief
period in 1940, when I was working at the President's direction on
legislation to be proposed to Congress on old-age and retirement-
benefit plans for maritime workers similar to those in effect for rail-
road labor, I had little official contact with him, but I always respected
his high technical ability and had no reason at any time to question
his loyalty nor had any grounds to suspect any Communist affiliation.
His reputation was that of one of the top-ranking statisticians of
Washington. I had no occasion to discuss with him any matters of
public importance and certainly none of a confidential nature; I have
no recollection of ever having done so.
Miss Bentley further states to this committee that I was the source
of inside information regarding China and our relations with China
which was relayed to her via Silverman and Silvermaster, and that
she suspected that I knew that what I said was destined for the Soviet
Government.
Taking the latter statement first, I emphatically deny that I ever
knew, believed, or suspected that any statement of mine was repeated
to any person acting under cover for the Soviet Government or any
foreign government. I have never lent, and would never lend, myself
to such disloyal action. I have frequently met and carried on negotia-
tions with accredited representatives of foreign governments, includ-
ing the Soviet, in the discharge of my official duties, and in all such
have been concerned only with the interests of the United States.
Among the thousands of loyal Americans who have been my colleagues
during my 11 years of Government service, I challenge anyone to find
one person who ever doubted my loyalty to this country.
Coming to the charge that I disclosed inside information about
China to Silverman, Silvermaster, or any unauthorized person, this
I absolutely deny..
I assume that "inside information'" means information which is con-
fidential either because it is not generally known or because it relates
to the economic or military position of the Chinese Government, or to
the plans, intentions, or proposals of either the Chinese or the United
States Governments. I was deeply conscious of the responsibility im-
posed upon me and the confidence placed in me by President Roosevelt
and never discussed matters of the type mentioned with any of the
persons mentioned. In fact, I never discussed these matters with any-
one other than officials of the Government officially charged with re-
856 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
sponsibility in connection with China. The persons mentioned above,
of course, did not fall within this category.
I have, of course, talked with a great many people about China. I do
not recall any such conversations with Silverman or Silvermaster,
but it is not impossible that the subject of China was discussed in gath-
erings at which one of them may have been present. Many persons
knew of my special interest in China. It was frequently mentioned in
the newspapers. It was generally known that I knew the Generalis-
simo, Madam Chiang Kai-shek, and members of the Chinese Govern-
ment. I admired the Chinese and was deeply sympathetic with their
struggle against Japanese aggression and with their sufferings as a
result of it. It was my official duty to assist the Chinese Government
in all ways possible and compatible with our own military effort. Con-
sequently, upon innumerable occasions people raised with me the sub-
ject of China, and I talked about the subject as freely as was com-
patible with my official responsibilities. I did this privately and with
representatives of the press, but I wish to stress again that I was at all
times conscious of the fact that my words had to be carefully con-
sidered, both from the point of view of not disclosing what should be
kept secret and from the point of view that what I said might be
twisted and given an official character. This is a position which is
familiar to all Government officials and is, of course, not unknown to
members of this committee.
In conclusion, let me state that I have spent 11 years serving the Gov-
ernment of the United States in positions of considerable responsi-
bility and clothed with a most confidential character, in the Treasury,
in the Federal Eeserve Board, in the White House, in the Foreign
Economic Administration, and on loan to the State Department. Dur-
ing this time a mass of the most confidential information went across
my desk and through my hands. Never until the present statement of
Miss Bentley have I been suspected or accused of betraying any of it
despite the publicity that surrounds the White House. Now I am
accused of disclosing one matter about which I had no information of
any sort whatever and of disclosing what is frequently described as
"inside information" about China, although no one has said, and I am
sure no one can say, what its specific content was.
I have looked back upon my 11 years of service to the Government
of the United States as a privilege and as a duty to which I gave all
that I had. I realized, of course, that public service is a rough and
tumble affair in which one cannot be thin-skinned about the give and
take of public controversy. But charges which involve one in the
activities of an alleged espionage ring are another matter. I, there-
fore, invite the most searching examination by the committee and
respectfully request that it find, as I know that it will, that these
charges are wholly untrue.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Currie, do you have anything else you want
to add to your statement at this time?
Mr. Currie. No, sir.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 857
Mr. Stripling. On pages 5 ^ and 6 of your statement, at the bottom
of page 5 you state :
I had no further official contact with Mr. Silvermaster, hut between 1940 and
1945 saw him several times at social gatherings at which there were always
several people present.
Did yon ever visit Mr. Silvermaster at his home at 5515 Thirtieth
Street NW.?
Mr. CuRRiE. Yes; I was entertained at his home several times.
There were ahvays other people present and the occasion was entirely
social.
Mr. Stripling. Conld you name the other people present, please?
Mr. CiTRRiE. I don't remember at this time all the people present.
I do remember he had his immediate superiors, people more or less of
my rank in Government, who were present, in the Farm Security
Administration and his former superiors in the Maritime Labor Board.
Mr. Stripling. Would you name them, please ?
Mr. CuRRiE. There was Mr. Bakhvin, Mr. Will Alexander, I recall
specifically ; also Mr. Louis Bloch.
Mr. Stripling. You say you were there several times, three or four
times ?
Mr. CuRRiE. Three or four times I should say.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know William Ludwig Ullmann?
Mr. CiTRRiE. Yes; I knew him as an economist in the Treasury, and
I met him at these occasions at the Silvermasters.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever go down into Silvermaster's basement?
Mr. CuRRiE. There was one occasion on which I went to the
basement.
Mr. Stripling. Who took you down there?
Mr. CuRRiE. ]Mr. Ullmann.
Mr. Stripling. Did he show you any photographic equipment?
Mr. Cfrrie. Xo, sir.
ISIr. Stripling. Did you see any photographic equipment?
Mr. Currie. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you see what could be termed a photo-room
or photographic room, a special room for that purpose?
Mr. Currie. I don't recall. I would like to explain to the commit-
tee the circumstances of the occasion.
At one of these occasions when I was at the Silvermasters we were
admiring a victrola that had been made by Mr. Ullmann, and he said
he had done it in his own workshop. My boy had his own workshop
with his own power tools and was very much interested in power tools.
So one Sunday morning I took him over to see the workshoj) and Mr.
Ullmann's power tools. That is the only occasion I remember.
Mr. Sn?iPLiNG. Did you ever meet Anatole Gromov of the Russian
Embassy?
Mr. Currie. I met him at a social occasion and was entertained at
his house on one occasion.
Mr. Stripling. You met him at a social occasion. Where was that ?
Mr. Currie. As I recall, it was in the latter part of 1944, when I was
introduced to him at a luncheon in the Hay-Adams in Washington.
^ Pp. 5 and 6 denote typed statement of witness. See p. 854, this publication.
858 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Who gave the hmcheon?
Mr. CuRRiE. Mr. Luther Gulick.
Mr. Stripling. Could you identify him, please?
Mr. CuRRiE. He was an official at the War Production Board and
what his official position was at that time, I cannot recall.
Mr. Stripling. Would you spell Mr. Gulick's name ?
Mr. CuRRiE. Yes ; G-u-1-i-c-k.
Mr. Stripling. And where did Mr. Gromov entertain you ? Wliere
was his home located ?
Mr. CuRRiE. I do not recall.
Mr. Stripling. Do you recall the year or the date ?
Mr. CuRRiE, I think it was shortly after this luncheon he invited my
wife and me to dinner and we accepted. He was introduced to me as
the first secretary of the Russian Embassy in charge of cultural rela-
tions. There was nothing in the conversation, as I recall, that would
be inconsistent with that description. He made no efforts to draw me
out; there were no leading questions, as I recall. The conversation
generally was on cultural matters, on which he was a very well-in-
formed person.
Mr. Stripling. I believe you stated in your statement you knew
George Silverman.
Mr. CuRRiE. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. Did Mr. Silverman ever ask you to recommend
William Ludwig Ullmann for a commission in the Army ?
Mr. CuRRiE. I do not recall, Mr. Stripling. I believe, according to
the records of this committee, that Mr. Ullmann listed me as a refer-
ence one or two times. He may very well have, I am sure he did have,
and he may very well have asked me, I do not recall. If he had asked
me, I probably would have given him permission because I knew noth-
ing at all derogatory to Mr. Ullmann at that time.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know whether or not you recommended
Irving Kaplan for a position in the Government ?
Mr. Currie. There again I would prefer if you would consult the
official records. I cannot trust my recollection after this lapse of time
as to who I recommended.
The Chairman. Right at that point will you help us consult the
official records?
Mr. Currie. I don't know, sir. I assume they are available in the
case of Mr. Ullmann. I notice in the testimony it was stated that I
had given my name as a reference.
The Chairman. If we call upon you for a little assistance to get some
of these recods, will you help us ?
Mr. Currie. I am only a private citizen now, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. You have some influence.
Mr. Currie. I hope so.
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Helen Silvermaster, the wife of
Nathan Gregory Silvermaster?
Mr. Currie. I met her at these same occasions I mentioned pre-
viously.
Mr. Stripling. Do you also know her son, Anatol Volkov ?
Mr. Currie. Slightly. I think he was present one of these times.
Mr. Stripling. Did you recommend him or help him to get in the
Coast Guard?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 859
Mr. CuRRiE. Not that I recollect.
Mr. SxRirLiNG. You don't recall Mrs. Silvermaster or Mr. Silver-
master fretting in touch with you regarding Anatol Volkov?
Mr. CuRRiE. I do not recall, Mr. Stripling, but I wouldn't want
to be too dogmatic because my name is used frequently in matters of
reference. I think it is a perfectly natural and human thing — I think
we perhaps have all done it — to give as references the most prominent
people we know and many times I happened to be that person, and
it may be. I cannot emphatically deny it, but I have no recollection.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever make any inquiry regarding Mr. Sil-
vermaster's background ?
Mr. CuRRiE. No ; I never did. I never felt it was my duty or my
job to make any investigation on my own. Whatever doubts had
arisen in my mind from this G-2 report would have been dispelled
by Judge Patterson's disposal of the case.
Mr. Stripling. You were the individual who brought it to Judge
Patterson's attention ?
Mr. CuRRiE. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. Now, Mr. Silvermaster's secretary. Miss Burke,
told the committee she delivered an envelope to you from Mr. Silver-
master, and I believe she said she took it to you on the second floor
of the State Department Building. Do you recall receiving an en-
velope from Mr. Silvermaster?
Mr. CuRRiE. No, sir. My office was on the second floor of the State
Department Building and t have no doubt that the lady is correct, but
I received economic material from hundreds of people in the Govern-
ment and I can't possibly remember this particular occasion.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Currie, in your statement on page 3 ^ in the sec-
ond paragraph, next to the last sentence, you say :
I have never been aflSliated with any organization or group sympathetic with
the doctrines of communism or engaged in furthering that cause.
Have you never belonged to any organizations which might be classi-
fied as Communist front organizations?
Mr. Currie. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Weren't you identified or affiliated with the Wash-
ington Committee to Aid China in 1940 ?
Mr. Currie. The only connection I had there was that I was once
solicited for a contribution to the Washington Committee to Aid
China, and I think I gave them $2.50. I was informed subsequently
that that meant my name was enrolled, but that was my only contact
with the organization.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know an individual by the name of Mildred
Price?
Mr. Currie. I believe there was a Mildred Price in connection with
China; yes.
Mr. Stripling. In connection with China or the Washington Com-
mittee To Aid China ?
Mr. Currie. I don't know. The man who solicited my contribution
was an employee of mine in the Federal Reserve Bparcl at that time.
Mr. Stripling. As a matter of fact, didn't you get in touch with
Mrs. Gifford Pinchot and ask her not to withdraw her support for a
concert which was being held at Uline Arena and in which Paul Robe-
* p. 3 denotes typed statement of witness. See p. 853, this pubUcation.
860 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
son was to be featured, and this meeting was cosponsored by the Na-
tional Negro Congress and the Washington Committee To Aid China,
and Mrs. Gifford Pinchot, upon finding Communist inspiration behind
it, threatened to withdraw — didn't you and Mildred Price get in touch
with Mrs. Gifford Pinchot?
Mr. CuRRiE. I have absolutely no recollection of that at all. This
is the first time to my recollection I ever heard of that.
Mr. Stripling. You gave no public statement regarding this
matter ?
Mr. CuRRiE. Not to the best of my knowledge ; no.
Mr. Stripling. Did you in 1942 arrange a conference between Earl
Browder and certain officials of the Government of the United States?
Mr. Cukrie. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever met Earl Browder ?
Mr. CuRRiE. I met Earl Browder on one occasion at the request of
Mr. Sumner Welles.
Mr. Stripling. Would you explain the circumstances ?
Mr. CuRRiE. I don't recall the occasion very well, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Welles once called me and said there w^as some statement about
China in the Daily Worker which he thought it was important to have
retracted. I have to search my memory, because it was a long time ago.
This statement, I believe, had something to do with the alleged
American intervention in China. He asked if I might be present at
the interview in case he wanted to call on me to refute some state-
ment made by Mr. Browder. Mr. Browder, I believe, was accom-
panied by Mr. Minor. The upshot of the conference — I took no part
in the conference — the upshot of the conference was that I believe Mr.
Browder withdrew whatever statement it was he had made previously.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Frank Coe ?
Mr. CuRRiE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling, How well do you know Mr. Coe ?
Mr. CuRRiE. I know Mr. Coe quite well. He was director of re-
search at the Foreign Economic Administration when I was Deputy
Administrator there.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know John Abt ?
Mr. CuRRiE. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Solomon Adler ?
Mr. CuRRiE. Yes.
Mr. Stripling, How well do you know Mr. Adler ?
Mr. CuRRiE. Not very well. He was an economist at the Treasury,
and he was particularly concerned with Chinese matters so that I met
him several times in connection with Chinese matters.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Norman Bursler ?
Mr. CuRRiE. I believe I have met him ; yes.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Edward J. Fitzgerald ?
Mr. CuRRiE. No.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Harold Glasser?
Mr. CuRRiE. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Sonia S. Gold?
Mr. CuRRiE. I don't believe so.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know William J. Gold or Bela Gold?
Mr. CuRRiE. There was a Gold at the Foreign Economic Adminis-
tration. That may have been the same man, I am not sure.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 861
Mr. Stripling. Did you know Jacob Golos?
Mr. CuRRiE. No.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Joseph B. Gregg?
Mr. CuRRiE. No.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Michael Greenberg ?
Mr. CuRRiE. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Maurice Halperin ?
Mr. CuRRiE. No.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Alger Hiss ?
Mr. CuRRiE. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Julius J. Joseph ?
Mr. CuRRiE. No.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Charles Kramer?
Mr. Currie. No.
Mr. Stripling. Irving Kaplan ?
Mr. Cttrrie. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Duncan C. Lee ?
Mr. Currie. No.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Solomon Lischinsky ?
Mr. Currie. No.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Harry Magdoff ?
Mr. Currie. No.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Robert T. Miller IH?
Mr. Currie. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Willard Z. Park ?
Mr. Currie. No.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Victor Perlo?
Mr. Currie. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. How well do you know Mr. Perlo ?
Mr. Currie. Very slightly. When I knew him he was an economist
at the Department of Commerce and I believe he went later with
either the War Production Board or the OPA, as you would know
by your records.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know William W. Remington ?
Mr. Currie. No.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Allan R. Rosenberg ?
Mr. Currie, Yes; he was an economist at the Foreign Economic
Administration.
Mr. Stripling. You testified you knew Mr. Silverman.
Mr. Currie. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Silvermaster?
Mr. Currie. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know William H. Taylor ?
Mr. Currie. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Helen B. Tenney ?
Mr. Currie. I don't believe so.
Mr. Stripling. You testified you knew William L. Ullmann.
. Mr. Currie. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Donald Niven Wheeler?
Mr. Currie. I am not sure, Mr. Counsel. The name is familiar but
T cannot place him.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Harry Dexter White?
Mr. Currie. Yes.
862 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Ciirrie, did you testify before the New York
grand jury which has been investigating alleged Government espio-
nage activities for the past 13 months?
Mr. CuRRiE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. How many times did you appear before the grand
jury?
Mr. Currie. Once.
Mr. Stripling. Would you be willing for your testimony before the
grand jury to be made public ?
Mr. Currie. If that is the customary thing. I have no feeling about
it. I ask for no privilege,
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever interviewed by the Federal Bureau
of Investigation ?
Mr. Currie. Yes, prior to my appearance before the grand jury.
Mr. Stripling. Did they question you regarding flie alleged state-
ment that you made to Silverman regarding the breaking of the Rus-
sian code?
Mr. Currie. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you give them a statement at that time?
Mr. Currie. I did.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have any objection to that statement being
made public ?
Mr. Currie. No.
Mr. Stripling. You have no objection?
Mr. Currie. No.
Mr. Stripling. That is all the questions I have at this time.
The Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
Mr. MuNDT. I have a few questions.
First of all, I would like to commend Mr. Currie on his attitude be-
fore the committee, which is certainly refreshing following the series
of witnesses to whom we have been compelled to listen over the past
'week. We are trying to get at the truth of this matter, which is pretty
difficult to do with witnesses who consistently conceal pertinent infor-
mation from the committee.
I don't think the question was asked — and I think the record should
show — you are a witness here this morning as a result of your own
request ?
Mr. Currie. That is right, sir.
Mr. Mundt. Now, as to some of the matters on which I would like
to ask questions, you are the first man we have had before us who has
admitted he has been in the basement of the Silvermaster home. We
are a little bit curious about tliat basement. The man wdio owned the
home advertised it for sale with the description that it included a well-
equipped photographic laboratory.
As you recall the basement of that home, was it divided up into
different rooms or was it a great big basement where, if you walked
into it, you saw the whole room as you came in, or what is your recol-
lection of the general architecture of the basement of the Silvermaster
home ?
Mr. Currie. I have only the vaguest impression, Mr. Mundt. I
personally had very little interest in this.
Mr. Mundt. I understand you went down to look at the workshop.
Mr. Currie. The conversation was almost entirely between Mr.
Ullmann and my son and was entirely concerned with the power tools
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 863
he liad and I just stood by and paid very little attention to it. So it
may very well have been equipped as you describe. I didn't notice or
it dichrt register.
M\\ MuNDT. Naturally you wouldn't be looking for it.
Mr. CuRRiE. No.
]Mr. JNIuNDT. You wouldn't be able to testify to your own knowledge
either yes or no as to the photographic equipment ?
ISIr. CuRRiE. No, sir.
Mr. MuNDT, You understand, too, of course, that none of the wit-
nesses before this committee has accused you of being a Communist
or disloyal.
Mr. C'uRRiE. That is right, sir.
Mr. INIuNDT. Your name entered the picture as a result first, I be-
lieve, of the testimony of Miss Bentley that men like Silvermaster
and Silverman, who were contacting her, had given your name as the
source of some of their information, not that she had contacted you,
not that your name was attached to it, but that they had used you as a
contact in the White House, which they claim had done two things :
(1) Given them information, and (2) helped them in the general
over-all program that Silvermaster and Perlo had worked out of
pushing their people forward in government by using reputable ref-
erences to get them in key spots.
Now, you are not clear in your own mind, of course, as to just how
many of these you have given references to or how many have used
your name as references. I suppose an administrative assistant in
the White House is guilty at times of the same kind of laxity as
Members of Congress. There are a lot of people who use your name
as reference. It is a little bit difficult sometimes to check completely
on the i^eople and the temptation is great to give them a sort of general
over-all reference which isn't too specific and pass it off in that way.
Is it possible that you may in the course of your official duties
have been guilty of that kind of laxity, which I say is something
to which Congressmen are sometimes guilty themselves?
Mr. CuRRiE. I w^as constantly consulted, Mr. Congressman, on econ-
omists and on positions. My recommendations were always given
on grounds of technical competence. The question of loyalty never
came up. I always assumed that if a person is occupying a respon-
sible position in the Government it wasn't up to me to question his
loyalty. I have made a lot of recommendations and a lot of ap-
pointments in my day. Some of them are men that would be familiar
to you all. Those I happen to remember because they stand out.
Mr. MuNDT. You would not be able to testify under oath of your
own knowledge that you had never unintentionally recommended
a man who did have a Communist affiliation because you assumed
that if they were in the Government they were loyal?
Mr. CuRRiE. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. You would not be able to testify under oath that you
had never recommended somebody who did turn out to be a Com-
munist or who was a Communist using your good name?
Mr. CuRRiE. No. All I could testify to under oath is that I never
wittingly recommended anybody who was a Communist.
]Mr. ISiuNDT. I think a lot of Americans have been under the same
illusions that if a person has a job in the Federal Government that
he is loyal. We all know now to our chagrin and regret that it is
864 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
not true, that no test of loyalty, no check on membership in the
Communist Party is made of an employee very frequently before
he secures his position. Were that not true the State Department
would not have had to discharge 134 people for disloyalty reasons.
We wouldn't have a case like Carl Aldo Marzani in the courts today,
an admitted Communist.
Out of this hearing we hope will come, if nothing else, a tighten-
ing of the employment methods of the Federal Government, some
kind of screening which will stop at the entry door people who are
Communists and who are disloyal.
Now, I would like to ask you this question, Mr. Currie, as a high
Government official, as a man in whose Americanism I believe :
You have heard or read about the testimony, I presume, of Mr. Silver-
man and Mr. Silvermaster, with whom you have been acquainted,
in whose home you have been entertained, who, when asked the ques-
tion, "Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Com-
munist Party?" said, "I refuse to answer under the fifth amend-
ment for fear of self-incrimination"; would you knowingly employ
in the Federal Government a man who gives that kind of answer
to that type of question ?
Mr. Currie. I would not employ in the Federal Government any
person whom I had reason to feel or suspect might be a Communist
in any post where there could be any conflict of loyalties that might
be detrimental to the United States.
Mr. MuNDT. Any conflict of loyalty anywhere in Government detri-
mental to the United States.
Mr. Currie. That is perfectly possible, but I would like to make
my statement more general. There may be positions in which that
might not enter. I don't know what they would be at the moment.
Mr. MuNDT. So that I am sure I understand your position, if a man
seeking employment from you or through you in the Federal Govern-
ment gave that answer to the question from you to him, "Are you now
or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?" would
jou be inclined to answer you would not employ him if it were a
position of any importance ?
Mr. Currie. That is correct, sir ; yes.
Mr. MuNDT. How well did you know Mr. Robert Miller 3d ?
Mr. Currie. I barely knew him. I think I met him once.
Mr. MuNDT. You didn't know him well ?
Mr. Currie. No.
Mr. MuNDT. I would just like to say this in conclusion, Mr. Chair-
main : Without in any way casting any reflections on the testimony of
Mr. Currie, it is interesting to me how thoroughly this whole chain of
events corroborates the testimony of Miss Bentley. Somehow or
other, she knew who Mr. Currie knew, she knew about the fact that
Silvermaster and Silverman had ingratiated themselves into the con-
fidence of Mr. Currie, she knew of the relationship of Mr. Currie to
the information in the civil-service files, she knew he had called them
at one time to the attention of Judge Patterson, she knew that Judge
Patterson had sent back a letter saying that in his opinion the person
in question was not guilty of the charges. That doesn't reflect on the
testimony at all of Mr. Currie, but it certainly does corroborate the
fact that Miss Bentley had an uncanny access to official information
in the Government, which I am prepared to believe she did not get
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 865
from Mr. Ciirrie but she |2:ot from tlie direct contacts, probably with-
out any knowledge — I think without any knowledge of Mr. Currie at
all ; they were using him as they would use anybody to further their
own nefarious purposes. That is all.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDowt:ll. No questions, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Mundt has cov-
ered those facts that I had on the matter very well.
The Chairman. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Currie, you indicated that you do not feel that a
man should be emj^loyed in government in a position in which there
might be a conflict of loyalties if he were a Communist. Would you
say that the positions held by Mr. Silvermaster, Mr, Silverman, and
Mr, Ullmann at the time that you knew them were positions of that
type ?
Mr. Currie, They were,
Mr. Nixon. They were positions in which members of the Com-
munist Party should not be employed, in other words ?
Mr. Currie. That is correct.
Mr, NixoN. You testified that you knew Mr, Silvermaster quite
well, that is, you had been at his home on 3 or 4 occasions, and also
30U knew Mr. Silverman quite well; yet, during, the time that you
knew them, you never had any reason to believe that they might be
members of the Communist Party, or in any way have Communist
sympathies.
Mr. Currie. I would like to repeat again, Mr, Nixon, the remark
that I made before to Mr, Stripling, that the only time that question
had ever come to my mind was in 1942 over the G-2 report on Mr.
Silvermaster, and the fact that Judge Patterson, in whom I had com-
plete confidence, should have reviewed that personally, and found that
unsubstantiated, and that removed whatever doubt there would have
been in my mind as a result of that charge. Unfortunately, I did not
know of any report or any other investigation or any other material
in the Government files.
Mr. NixoN. I am not referring, Mr, Currie, to Government files.
I know your testimony is very clear on that point, but you have testi-
fied that you knew these men quite well, that is, socially
Mr. Currie, Socially.
Mr. Nixon. And otherwise you had met them and, obviously, it is
to be understood that you had spoken to them from time to time about
various matters, and yet, during the time that you knew them, you
never had any suspicion that they might be members of the Com-
munist Party,
Mr. Currie. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. You never had any suspicion that their sympathies
might be on the Conmiunist line ?
Mr, Currie, That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. You never discussed i^olitics with them ?
Mr. Currie. Not that I recall.
Mr, Nixon. What did you discuss at the time that you met them
during these several occasions, socially and otherwise, that you had
conversations with them? You never discussed politics. What else
did you discuss with them, and what else do you discuss in Wash-
ington? I am just curious.
80408—48 24
866 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
, Mr. CuRRiE. It is awfully difficult to remember after 6 years what
Avas discussed,
Mr. Nixon. I understand.
Mr. CuRRiE. It was purely on social occasions, and I attached no
particular significance to them. I was entertained a great deal at
that time. I went out a great many times, and I do not remember
these occasions from others.
Mr. Nixon. If you had any suspicion that they had been members
of the Communist Party, you would not have recommended Mr.
Silvermaster ?
Mr. CuRRiE. I most certainly would not.
Mr. Nixon. Now, you also testified that, although you knew Mr.
Silvermaster socially and otherwise reasonably well, you cannot
recall whether he ever discussed with you the matter of his loyalty
investigation.
Mr. CuRRiE. No; I have read it in the testimony of this commitr
tee that he had seen me at that time, and he probably did. I do not
remember. This meant a great deal to him ; it meant very very little to
me. I was quite indifferent as to the outcome. If the report had been
upheld, I would not have lifted my finger about it. I did not inter-
cede ; I did not intervene. I referred the matter. That was my
position.
Mr. Nixon. And you cannot recall whether this man, Silvermaster,
in whose home you visited on four occasions — you cannot recall spe-
cifically whether he did or did not discuss this matter of his loyalty
with you ?
Mr. CuRRiE. No, he was very grateful for my having had this report
referred to the War Department. I do remember that.
Mr. Nixon. You do remember that.
Mr. CuRRiE. But I did no more than I would have done for any
employee of the Government or any agency of the Government. It
was a routine procedure, as far as I was concerned, and I gave it very
little thought.
Mr. Nixon. When you sent the report over to Mr. Patterson, as you
indicated, you sent it without ■
Mr. CuRRiE. Excuse me, Mr. Congressman, I did not send the re-
port to Mr. Patterson. I called Judge Patterson.
Mr. Nixon. I meant, when you asked Mr. Patterson for the report,
was that on the occasion
Mr. CuRRiE. No; I never saw the report. I asked Mr. Patterson if
he would review this report and make sure that it was the considered
judgment of the Department, and he said he would be very happy to
do so, and then he communicated directly .with Mr. Perkins later.
I did not.
Mr. Nixon. At that time or at no other time, have you ever given a
favorable recommendation to any person in Government for Mr.
Silvermaster ; is that correct ?
Mr. CuRRiE. I do not recall, Mr. Nixon, ever havin.g recommended
him for any position, but there again I have to rely upon the official
records. I do not remember having recommended him for any post.
I only recall being interviewed at one time by the Civil Service, I be-
lieve it was, under the Hatch Act provision." I am not sure. Those
interviews very frequently happened, and I always felt that I know
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 867
of no reason to question a man's loyalty unless I had a specific rea-
son, which I did not have in this case.
Mr. Nixon. Now, in answer to Mr. Stripling's question in regard
to the letter which Mr. Silvermaster's secretary is supposed to have
delivered to your office, you testified that you received economic ma-
terials from a number of Government officials.
Mr. CuRREE. Yes.
Mr. Nixox. Have you received economic materials previously from
Mr. Silvermaster, delivered by his secretary ?
Mr. CuRRiE. The only occasion I remember was the one I men-
tioned in my testimony of 1940, when I was checking into a thing, a
matter, at the President's direction. But there wns a constant flow
of material that came into me on all economic matters.
; Mr. Nixon. I understand that. That is easily understandable. But
my question is. Did Mr. Silvermaster constantly send you economic
material ?
Mr. CuRRiE. No. There would be no occasion. He was a labor
economist, and that was a field in which I never got into very much.
Mr. Nixon. In fact, you cannot recall that he did send you any
economic materials, then?
Mr. CuRRiE. No.
Mr. Nixon. At all ?
Mr. CuRRiE. No. No; I would not impugn the testimony of his
secretai-y ; I just do not remember.
Mr. Nixon. Then, as far as this particular material is concerned,
you do not know whether that was economic material or not ?
- Mr. CuRRiE. I have no recollection of it at all.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Currie, when the White House gets in touch with
a department, just as does a Member of Congress — Avhen a Member
of Congress gets in touch with a department — in regard to a case, even
though you indicate no recommendation one way or the other, the
department is pretty likely, at least, to get that particular matter from
the bottom of the pile to the top of the pile and give it special considera-
tion ; isn't that the case ?
Mr. CuRRiE. Give it consideration from the point of view of treating
the matter, not necessarily of giving one reply or another reply. It is
a routine thing of the thousands of suggestions and inquiries and com-
plaints that flow into the White House all the time, which are referred
all the time to the various departments for handling.
Mr. Nixon. Then, in other words, the fact that you would indicate
an interest in a man would not have any effect upon the disposition
of a case.
Mr. CuRRiE. I am quite certain in this case it would not.
Mr. Nixon. I see. In other words, the White House secretary for-
wards a case to the War Department, indicates that you know the
man, but you do not recommend him, and he gets the same treatment
as if it came up through channels and any other w^^y.
Mr. Currie. Yes; I do not even know, remember, whether I said I
knew the man.
Mr. Nixon. In other words, there is no reason at all to go through
the White House, is there, in these cases ?
Mr. Currie. I was trying to remember back to the circumstances,
since this has come up, and the only reason I can recall why it was not
868 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
taken up directly from the BEW to the War Department was the
peculiar position that BEW was in vis-a-vis the War Department
then. It was wartime, and they were receivinof things — they were in
a rather weak bargainino- position vis-a-vis the War Department, and
I do not think they could afford to raise any questions about anything
that the War Department was interested in. This is kind of recon-
structing the circumstances.
Mr. Nixon. I understand, Mr. Currie, but I mean if the influence of
the White House was nil in the War Department, what would it help
for the BEW to refer the matter through you ?
Mr. Currie. Just to make sure that this report was well-founded,
was substantiated, that it was the considered opinion of the War De-
partment. It was a very serious charge at that time. It reflected on
the agency against whom these charges could be made, and I think
they felt that they would like to have a little review, but were reluctant
to ask Jor it!
Mr. Nixon. One thing we have certainly learned here, Mr. Currie,
is that — and this is quite novel and interesting as far as I am con-
cerned, that is— that going through the White House has no influence-
on a department.
Thank you.
The Chairman. Mr. Hebert.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Currie, Mr. Silverman, Mr. Ullmann, and Mr..
Silvermaster refused to state whether they knew you or not on the
grounds that it might incriminate them. Do you know any reason
why knowing you would incriminate anybody?
Mr. Currie. I can imagine no reason why knowing me should in-
criminate anybody.
Mr. Hebert. You say that with respect to Mr. Silvermaster's coming^
to see you about this loyalty problem, you do not recall that.
Mr. Currie. I do not recall that he did. He says that he did, and
I think he may have ; I do not remember.
Mr. Hebert. What makes you so definite that somebody telephoned
you from the Bureau of Economic Warfare, and what makes you so
definite that you called Judge Patterson? Why do you remember
those points, those minute details, and do not remembpr the man
involved — what he said ?
Mr. Currie. I cannot account for my memory, Mr. Hebert. I do-
remember that somebody called me. I thought it was Mr. Perkins.
I checked with him, and he said he did not call me; he said it was
Mr. Stone. I do not remember who it was. Somebody called me from
the BEW.
Mr. Hebert. You do remember it was a telephone call ?
Mr. Currie. It was a telephone call, and I passed it on.
Mr. Hebert. Now, you mentioned to Mr. Nixon that the reason
they went through you was that they wanted to be absolutely certain
that it would be reviewed, since this was a very serious charge with
respect to loyalty tow^ard the Government, especially in the Bureau
of Economic Warfare.
Mr. Currie. That is not my recollection; that is my reconstruction..
I was trying to explain what that was.
Mr. Hebert. It was a very serious charge ?
Mr. Currie. Yes; that is right.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 869
Mr. Hebert. And yet, it had no effect on you that a friend of yours
"Nvas charged with disloyalty, and you dismissed it ?
]Mr. CuRRiE. He was no more a friend of mine tlian were dozens of
people scattered throughout the Government. Matters affecting
economists usually came my way.
Mr. Hebert. The fact that you had been entertained in his home,
the fact that you took your son over to his house to see the Ullmann
tool shop
Mr. CuRRiE. That, I assure you, would not affect me in a matter
affecting the security of the United States.
INIr. Hebert. But it did not leave any lasting impression on you.
Mr. CuRRiE. It left the impression
Mr. Hebert. I mean, it just left a passing fancy with you : That man
*'is being charged with being disloyal. They will clear him. So
what? So I will forget about it."
Mr. CuRRiE. No, the fact that he was subsequently cleared of the
•charge reassured me that any questions that arose in my mind as a
result of this charge were disposed of.
Mr. Hebert. And you never discussed that with him ?
Mr. CuRRiE. As I said, I testified that he said he was very grateful
to me, and I never told anybody, and there was no reason for liim to
be grateful, but he persisted in being grateful.
Mr. Hebert. You say this w^as a routine matter?
Mv. CuRRiE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. Do you recall any other incidents of anybody else's
loyalty being questioned and being referred to you ?
Mr. Currie. Offhand, no ; I do not recall.
Mr. Hebert. Then it could not have been a routine matter. This
was a single case. *
Mr. Currie. Not the charge, Mr. Congressman. The fact is that
there w^ere things referred to the AVhite House which were in turn
referred to the departments; that was the routine aspect of the case.
Mr. Hebert. In only one case was there a charge of suspected dis-
loyalty, a charge of suspected disloyalty in the Bureau of Economic
Warfare that was referred to you?
Mr. Currie. I do not remember now.
Mr. Hebert. To the best of your recollection there would be only
one case?
Mr. Currie. That is right.
Mr. Hebert. And that one case turns out to be Silvermaster, whom
you know ?
Mv. Currie. That is right.
Mr. Hebert. Nobody else ?
Mr. Currie. Not that I can recall.
Mv. Hebert. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Currie, how many times were you at the Sil-
vermaster home?
Mr. Currie. I think in the whole period, three or four or five times ;
I do not really recall exactly.
The ChairjMAN. And what were the approximate dates?
Mr. Currie. I do not remember, Mr. Congressman — Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Well, did they start in 1943 or 1944?
870 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. CuRRiE, No ; I think it came — I was invited after my first offi-
cial contact with them, which must have been in 1940, but I only
imagine that. I cannot recall from my knowledge.
The Chairman. When was the last time you were there : what year?
Mr. CuRRiE. That again I cannot recall.
The Chairman. Well, do you think it was in 1944?
Mr. Currie. I left the Government in 1945, and I assume it was
probably within a year of that time, but I really must say that that
is only guessing.
The Chairman. Within a year of 1945 ?
Mr. CtiRRiE. Yes. But that is, as I say, only guessing again ; I do
not have certain knowledge of my own recollection.
The Chairman. Can you again tell the committee, as best you can
recall, the names of the persons who were present at the Silvermasters^
home when you were there?
Mr. CuRRiE. The person I definitely recall would be Mr. C. B. Bald-
win, who was Mr. Silvermaster's boss at the Farm Security Admin-
istration; and I believe Mr. Will Alexander, who also followed Mr.
Baldwin in the Farm Security Administration, and Mr. Louis Bloch,
who was chairman of the Maritime Labor Board, who was the pre-
vious superior of Mr. Silvermaster, and their wives. I believe that is
right. I am not quite sure of my recollection.
The Chairman. You were there possibly five times, you say?
Mr. Curry. I do not remember ; several times.
The Chairman. Were there not any other people present ?
Mr. CuRRiE. Mrs. Silvermaster, Mr. Ullmann; I met Mrs. Silver-
master's brother there ; that is all I can remember.
The Chairman. Wliat was Silvermaster's brother's name?
Mr. CuRRiE. I believe it was Boris. I am ndt sure.
The Chairman. What was his business ?
Mr. CuRRiE. I do not know.
The Chairman. But you think that the last time you were there —
the first time was in 1940, and the last time was within a year of 1945 ?
Mr. CuRRiE. That should be
The Chairman. It must have been 1944 — it might have been 1946.
Mr. CuRRiE. That is my best informed guess.
The Chairman. It may have been 1944 or 1946.
Mr. Currie. No ; I left the Government in 1945.
The Chairman. So it would be either 1944 or 1945 ?
Mr. Currie. That is right.
The Chairman. What was the date when you received word on
this Army Intelligence report?
Mr. Currie. It ha^ been brought out in the testimony that was in
June 1942.
The Chairman. June 1942. So you had been at the Silvermasters'
home prior to that time and after that time.
Mr. Currie. I should imagine so, but I cannot fix the dates definitely.
The Chairman. And in reply to one of Mr. Mundt's questions you
said that you never questioned the loyalty of a person when that
person was making application for a position ; is that correct?
Mr. Currie. That is correct.
The Chairman. Then you never questioned the loyalty of a person
either when they were in the Government ; is that correct ?
]Mr. Currie. That is correct.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE " 871
The Chairman. Tlien if you never questioned the loyalty of the
person one way or the other, why did you take an interest, such an
interest, in the Army Intellio;ence report on Mr. Silvermaster?
Mr. CuRRiE. I did not take an interest in the Army Intelligence
rei)ort of Mv. Silvermaster. I never saw the report. I did not read
the report. I did not intercede. I referred it to the appropriate
official of the Government.
The Chairman. In a routine manner?
Mr. CuRRiE. That is correct. If it had been a Naval Intellig'ence
report, I would have referred it to Mr. Forrestal.
The Chairman. But it Avas a routine matter, so it would just
go — you would refer it through channels ?
IMr. CuRRiE. That is correct.
The Chairman. Isn't it a little odd that you should call the Under
Secretary of War, the next highest official in the War Department,
if it was just a routine matter?
Mr. CuRRiE. I think not. I knew Judge Patterson, and he was the
civilian in the War Department charged — who would be charged with
military intelligence matters. He would be the logical person for
me, I think, to refer anything to.
Tlie Chairman. Did Mr. Silvermaster ever talk to you about this
Army Intelligence report ?
iNIr. CuRRiE. I do not remember that, Mr. Chairman. He has stated
before this committee that he came to see me, but I do not remember.
The Chairman. You do not recall whether he talked to you about
it or not ?
Mr. CuRRiE. No. To the best of my recollection, I did not at that
time see the report at all, and I certainly would take no position on
its findings, because that was not my business. It would have been
quite improper for me to take any stand at all on the conclusions or
recommendations or evidence or findings of that report.
The Chairman. Did the FBI question you on that Army Intelli-
gence report ?
Mr. CuRRiE. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you have any idea what was in the Army
Intelligence report about Mr. Silvermaster ?
Mr. Ctjrrie. No, sir.
The Chairman. You have no idea at all of what was in it?
Mr. CuRRiE. The only thing I recall having been told was the con-
clusion, the statement that he was not a proper person to be handling
military documents or having access to military secrets, or something
like that.
The Chairman. Who told you that conclusion?
Mr. CuRRiE. Whoever it was who called from BEW, whose name,
unfortunately, I cannot now recall.
The Chairman. How long did it take, after you got word of the
Army Intelligence report, how long did it take to get word back that
Silvermaster was cleared?
Mr. CuRRiE. I do not remember.
The Chairiman. Do you tliink it was a short time?
Mr. CuRRiE. Probably within a month, but I am not sure. I am
not at all certain on this.
The Chairman. The person from BEW, the first person from BEW,
you have no idea who that person might be ?
872 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. CuRKiE. No, sir; I thought it was Mr. Perkins, but I checked
recently with Mr. Perkins, and he does not recall that he called me.
The Chairman. Well, I will just suspend my questions until there
are a couple of questions from Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Just one month, I want to tell you.
The Chairman. He said about one month, about a month later.
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
The Chairman, Mr. Stripling, if you have not already done so, the
Chair would like to instruct you to get this Army Intelligence report
on Mr. Silvermaster.
Mr. Hebert. You mean if the Army will give it to us, with the
permission of the White House.
The Chairman. At least we will try to get it anyway.
I will just read your testimony in regard to that :
Judge Patterson subsequently telephoned to me to say that the matter had
been reviewed and that in the judgment of the Department the statements made
in the report were not substantiated, and that the report was being withdrawn.
Did Judge Patterson tell you anything that was in the report ?
Mr. CuRRiE. No, sir, not to my recollection.
The Chairman. Then, you go on to say :
According to the letter from Judge Patterson to Mr. Milo Perkins which has
been inserted in the record of these hearings, Judge Patterson stated, "I have
personally made an examination of the case, and have discussed it with Maj. Gen.
G. V. Strong, G-2."
Did General Strong discuss this matter with you ?
Mr. CuRRiE. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you at any time discuss this matter with either
the civil service or Naval Intelligence?
Mr. CuRRiE. Not to my recollection, no.
The Chairman. Do you think that there is a report on Mr. Silver-
master in Civil Service or Naval Intelligence ?
Mr. Currie. I believe that in the transcript before this committee
there is a statement that there is'. I did not know of any.
The Chairman. Well, were you not asked some questions by the
Civil Service Commission in connection with Mr. Silvermaster?
Mr. CuRRiE. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You were?
Mr. Currie. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What were those questions?
Mr. Currie. The only question I can recall which was asked me was
whether I had any reason to question the loyalty of Mr. Silvermaster.
The Chairman. What was your answer?
Mr. Currie. My answer was that I had not of my own knowledge
any reason to question the loyalty of Mr. Silvermaster.
The Chairman. Did the Civil Service question you before or after
you knew of the Army Intelligence report?
Mr, Currie. I do not know, but I am sure the committee must know.
The Chairman. Well, now, that is important. Just think a little bit
about it. Did the Civil Service question you before someone in the
BEW got in touch with you concerning Mr. Silvermaster, and you
heard of the Army Intelligence report, or did they question you after?
Mr. Currie. I have just stated to you, Mr^ Chairman, that I do not
know whether it was before or after. I believe Mr. Russell appeared
before this committee, and stated that he had interviewed me in the
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 873
Civil Service and so there must be a record somewhere, but I do not of
my own knowledge know.
The Chairman, In regard to Mr. Silverman, you say that his repu-
tation was that of one of the top ranking statisticians of Washington.
How well did you know Mr. Silverman ?
Mr. CuKRiE. I knew him over a long period of years, not particularly
intimately, but for a long period. The only time I worked very closely,
intimately witli him, was in 1940 on the proposed legislation which was
designated by the Railroad Retirement Board, and he worked with me
at that time, but we did prepare this legislation, and that was the only
official contact I had with him, I believe.
The Chairmax. Didn't he contact you after 1940 ?
Mr. CtnutiE. I saw him from time to time, but we were not par-
ticularly intimate.
The Chairman. When you saw him from time to time, did you see
him in your offices, or did you se him at social affairs or where ?
Mr. CuRRiE. I do not recall the circumstances now. I remember
seeing him occasionally, but I do not remember where or how or when,
what the occasions were now.
The Chairman. Can't you recall seeing him at some social affair?
Mr. Currie. It is very possible, or at various committee meetings
in the Government ; I do not know. You see, at that time, Mr. Thomas,
I was meeting constantly with the economists in the Government, and
it is very difficult for me to say now when and under what circum-
stances 1 met any particular person.
The Chairman. On page 10 of your statement, you are referring
to "inside information." You say :
In fact, I never discussed these matters with anyone other than officials of
the Government.
Wasn't Mr. Silvermaster an official of the Government ?
Mr. Currie. I added "officially charged with responsibility in con-
nection with China."
The Chairman. Well, did you discuss this matter with any of the
persons who have been named in connection with these hearings?
Mr. Currie. I had occasion to discuss some elements of the China
program with Mr. White of the Treasury, particularly the financial
aspects of this China program. We had various meetings on that.
The Chairman, What Mr, White is that ?
Mr, Currie, That is Mr. Harry D, White.
The Chairman. Did you discuss the same matters with any officials
inBEW?
]Mr, Currie. No ; at the time when I was in BEW I w-as no longer
very intimately connected or concerned with the Chinese policy. There
were a great number, I may say, there were a great number of con-
fidential things that I handled in BEW which, apparently, have not
been talked about in these hearings.
The Chairman. Now, in conclusion, you say :
I have spent 11 years serving the Government of the Unitetl States in positions
of considerable responsibility, and clothed with a most confidential character,
in the Treasury, Federal Reserve —
And so on.
Have you seen the file on you in the Treasury Department?
Mr. Currie. No, sir.
874 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. Do you know whetlier any file exists there?
Mr. CuRRiE. No, sir. I assume there must be, because I was senior
analyst at the Treasury at one time.
Tlie Chairman. You were what ?
Mr. CuRRiE. I assume there must be, because I had the rank of
senior analyst at the Treasury for some months in 1934.
The Chairman. When was that ?
Mr. Currie. For some months in 1984.
The Chairman. Did the FBI question you before you appeared
before the Federal grand jury?
Mr. Currie. That is correct.
The Chairman. Did they question you concerning your knowledge
of Mr. Silvermaster ?
Mr. Currie. That is correct.
The Chairman. Did they question you concerning Victor Perlo?
Mr. Currie. No.
The Chairman. They did not question you concerning him?
Mr. Currie. Not to my recollection. They may have; I do not
recall the name.
The Chairman. Did they question you concerning Mr. Silverman ?
Mr. Currie. Yes.
The Chairman. Did they question you concerning Miss Bentley?
Mr. Currie. They never mentioned Miss Bentley by name. They
asked me if I knew a woman by the name of Mary, and I said I never
had. I recognize now that that is probably who was being referred
to. But I never heard of Miss Bentley or Miss Bentley's name until
the testimony spoken before this committee.
The Chairman. Those are the only questions I have.
Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Mundt. In connection with your work in China, which re-
sulted in your having several missions to China, and talked with
Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek and his wife, were you at that time one
of those who were helping to formulate our American policv vis-a-vis
China?
Mr. Currie. I think I might be characterized as one of those.
Mr. Mundt. Would you care to tell the committee whether it was
your recommendation that we permit Communists — that w^e urge,
that we insist, I guess the recommendation was, that we insist that
the Chinese Nationalists accept Communists as part of the coalition
government in China?
Mr. Currie. No; that question never arose in the time in which I
was concerned with China. I was concerned \yith China from 1941
through 1942, those 2 years. The policy of the Government at that
time was as complete a support of Chiang Kai-shek and the National
Government as was compatible with our own militai'}' necessities, and
I was specifically charged with being the person to get as much mate-
rial and to assist and help the Chinese as much as possible in that
policy.
Mr. Mundt. The time, then, that we launched on what is commonly
referred to as the "Chinese appeasement policy," you were no longer
reconnnending Chinese policy?
Mr. Currie. That is correct; yes.
Mr. Mundt. When did you first learn, Mr. Currie, that the Civil
Service Commission had reported ofhoially that Nathan Gregory Sil-
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 875
vermaster was such a bad security risk that he should be removed from
the Goverunieut ?
Mr. CuRRiE. As far as I recall, the first word I ever heard of that
was in testimony before this committee.
Mr. MuNDT. It had never come to your knowledge before that time?
Mr. CuRRiE. No.
Mr. MuNDT, What were the circumstances under which Mr. Silver-
master expressed his gratitude to you for having relayed the report
to Judge Patterson ?
Mr. CuRKiE. What were the circumstances?
Mr. MuNDT. Yes.
Mr. CuRRiE. I do not recall the occasion or the time. I just re-
member that he expressed himself as very grateful, and I said that
there was nothing that I would not have done for anybody else. There
was nothing personal in it.
]\Ir. MuxDT. I think you said that he persisted in expressing his
gratitude.
Mr, CuRRiE. I believe so,
Mr. MuNDT. It could be that perhaps Shakespeare was right when
he said, "Methinks my lord protests too much." His gratitude was
pressed upon you, there might have been some good reason why he
felt that gratitude.
The Chairman. I think we had better leave Shakespeare out of the
hearing.
[Laughter.]
Mr. MuNDT. When did you first learn, Mr. Currie, that General
Strong had cleared Mr. Silvermaster ? Was that when you read
Mr. Currie. I did not learn that until I read this letter that I be-
lieve was put in as an exhibit or part of the testimony before this com-
mittee.
Mr. MuNDT. I think that is all, Mr. Chairman, although I would
like to have the record show that Mr. Currie, in addition to having
answered questions in a forthright manner, came here without benefit
of counsel to whisper in his ear the answers he should give to the com-
mittee. I think that is very commendable.
The Chairman. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Currie, just so the record will be clear on this point,
as I understand this matter of referring the Silvermaster case to the
War Department, it was just a routine matter, as far as you were con-
cerned.
Mr. Currie. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. You had a considerable numberof routine matters that
you did refer to the War Department from time to time?
Mr. Currie. That is correct ; yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Well, would you say about how many it would run?
Would you say it would run in the hundreds a month, I suppose, mat-
ters you might have to refer, or would it run
Mr. Currie. Not very many matters came to me which I would refer
to the War Department, because, you see, I was an economist at the
White House, and most of my work had to do with economists and
economics, except for the period when I was handling the lend-lease
program for China, when I had a good deal to do with the War Depart-
ment, Apart from that, I had very little contact with them.
876 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. But you had a number of referrals to the War Depart-
ment from your department.
Mr. CuRRiE. To other departments. The routine thing, I would
like to stress, is that we try to get things from off our desk as quickly
as possible, and try to pass them on to the proper people.
Mr. Nixon. Now, this referral to Judge Patterson was in June of
1942, as I understand it ?
Mr. CuRKiE. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. As you recall, that was right at the height of the
war effort.
Mr. CuRRiE. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. And was it always your practice on a referral to call
Judge Patterson on the telephone and take him away from the busi-
ness of planning the war effort just to turn over routine referrals
that you had on a man? Did you always call him on the telephone?
Mr. CuRRiE. I can only imagine, Mr. Nixon, that I was frightfully
busy at the time, and disposed of it in that way. As I recall, from
the dates presented to the committee, I must have been just on the
point of leaving for China, and I was tremendously busy at that time.
That is one reason, perhaps, why I do not recall the whole thing
very well.
Mr. NixoN. So, on these referrals it was your practice to call the
Secretary of War, the Secretary of the Navy, or the Under Secre-
tary of War, Under Secretary of Navy, on the telephone so that
Mr. CuRRiE. You either called or referred by letter. But in any
case, I was supposed to refer to the top of the Department. I was
not supposed to communicate with an officer down along the line,
you see, on a matter of this sort.
Mr. NixoN. I understand.
Mr. CuRRiE. And I assumed it was always referred down, but
the channels were always through the top of the Government.
The Chairman. May I interrupt there at that point?
Mr. NixoN. Just a niinute, Mr. Chairman. When you made a
call like that on Secretary Patterson or you made a call to him or
to one of the other individuals, they always made it a practice to call
you back and tell you what they said or had done; is that correct,
even though you indicated no interest in the case, except as a referral?
]\Ir. CuRRiE. I do not remember, Mr. Nixon, whether they always
called me back or not.
Mr. NixoN. Well, Judge Patterson did in this case.
Mr. CuRRiE. In this case I recall that he did.
Mr. Nixon. And you called him and you indicated no particular
interest in the case?
Mr. CuRRiE. That is right.
Mr. NixoN. Thank you.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. I would like to ask Mr. Currie if he knows Henry
Collins.
Mr. Currie. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Carl Aldo Marzani ?
Mr. Currie. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. How many times did you go to China officially for
the Government?
Mr. Currie. Twice.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 877
Mr. Stripling. Were you accompanied at one time by . Emile.
Despres ?
Mr. CuRRiE. I was accompanied the first mission to China by Mr.
Despres.
Mr. Stripling. Where was he employed ?
Mr. CuRRiE. He was an employee of the Federal Reserve Board
at that time.
JNIr. Stripling. Who else accompanied you on that trip to China
except for Mr. Despres ?
Mr. CuRRiE. He was the only person. I should explain, Mr. Strip-
ling, that that first mission to China was not a political or a military
mission ; it was an economic mission. I was sent out there to advise
the Chinese on the problem that is still with them, the problem of
inflation and, therefore, I took with me an economist from the Federal
Eeserve Board.
Mr. Stripling. I see. Those are all the questions I have, Mr. Chair-
man.
The Chairman. Are there any more questions ?
Mr. Hebert. I want to ask Mr. Currie just one thing. Mr. Currie,
are you satisfied that we have accepted your invitation for a searching
examination this morning?
Mr. Currie. I am very much indeed.
Mr. Hebert. That is all.
The Chairman. You are excused. The next witness, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Harry Dexter White.
The Chairman. Mr. White, will you raise your right hand, please ?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. White. I do.
The Chairman. Mr. White, in reply to your request, I doubt if you
will be on that long anyway. If, however, you should get tired, you
just let me know, and we will give you a recess.
Mr. White. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Stripling.
TESTIMONY OF HARRY DEXTER WHITE
Mr. Stripling. Will you please state your full name, Mr. White ?
Mr. White. Harry Dexter White.
Mv. Stripling. Have you always been known by that name?
Mr. White. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. When and where were you born ?
Mr. White. Boston, Mass., October 29, 1892.
Mr. Stripling. Will you give the committee a resume of your educa-
tional background ?
Mr. White. I studied at Columbia, Stanford, Harvard. I got an
A. B. and an A. M. at Stanford, a Ph. D. at Harvard; I taught at
Harvard for some 6 years, I think, and subsequently at the St. Law-
rence University.
Mr. Stripling. What subject did you teach at Harvard?
Mr. White. Economics — international economics — at Harvard.
Mr. Stripling. Where do vou presentl}' reside?
Mr. White. 334 West Eighty-sixth Street, New York City.
%
878 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. What is your present occupation ?
Mr. White. Well, I am sort of financial and economic consultant.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever employed in the Federal Govern-
ment ?
Mr, White. I was with the Federal Government for some 13 years..
Mr. Stripling. Would you detail to the committee the various posi-
tions you held in the Federal Government ?
Mr. White. I think I began as an assistant director of research —
prior to that I was called down for a special job — then I w,as Assistant
Director of Research at the Treasury. I then became Director of
Monetary Research, which was a separate division from the Division
of Research. Subsequently I was assistant to the Secretary, and in
my last year with the Treasury I was Assistant Secretary of the Treas-'
ury, and I then served for a year as the United States Executive Direc-
tor on the International Monetary Fund.
Mr. Stripling. Are you acquainted with Nathan Gregory Silver-
master ?
Mr. White. Yes; I am.
Mr. Stripling. How w^ell do you know Mr. Silvermaster ?
Mr. White. I know Mr. Silvermaster pretty well.
Mr. Stripling. Have you visited in his home ?
Mr. White. Yes ; I was in his home a number of times.
Mr. Stripling. Has he visited in your home ?
Mr. White. Yes, sir ; he visited in my home a number of times.
Mr. Stripling. When did you first meet Mr. Silvermaster — approxi-
mately when?
Mr. White. That is hard to say. It was 8, 9, 10, or 11 years ago.
It must have been more than 8 because it was prior to the war. I
should say closer to 10.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have a statement to read, Mr. White?
Mr. White. Well, I have a brief number of things that I have-
jotted down.
Mr. Stripling. I mean, do you wish to read a statement ?
Mr. White. I should like to, if I may.
Mr. Stripling. Yes; I think it w^ould be all right to read that at
this time.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. White. I vohintarily asked to come here before this committee,,
and the committee has been kind to grant my request. I have read in
the newspapers charges that have been made against me by a Mis&
Elizabeth Bentley, and a Mr. Whittaker Chambers. I am coming
before you because I think it is important that the truth be made
known to the committee, and to the public, and I am prepared to
answer to the best of my ability any questions that any member of the-
committee may wish to ask.
I shoukl like to state at the start that I am not now and never have-
been a Communist, nor even close to becoming one; that I cannot
recollect ever knowing either a Miss Bentley or a Mr. Whittaker
Chambers, nor, judging from the pictures I have seen in the presSy
have I ever met them.
The press reported that the witnesses claim that I helped to obtairk
key posts for persons I knew were engaged in espionage work to help
them in that work. That allegation is unqualifiedly false.
There is and can be no basis in fact whatever for such a charge..
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 879
Tlie principles in which I believe, and by which I live, make it im-
possible for me to ever do a disloyal act or anythino; ajiainst the in-
terests of our country, and I have jotted down what my belief is for
the committee's information.
My creed is the American creed. I believe in freedom of religion,,
freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of the press, freedom
of criticism, and freedom of movement. I believe in the goal of
equality of opportunity, and the right of each individual to follow the
calling of his or her own choice, and the right of every individual to
an o])portunity to develop his or her capacity to the fullest.
I believe in the right and duty of every citizen to work for, to
expect, and to obtain an increasing measure of political, economic,
and emotional security for all. I am opposed to discrimination iir
any form, whether on grounds of race, color, religions, political belief,,
or economic status.
I believe in the freedom of choice of one's representatives in Gov-
vernment, untrammeled by machine guns, secret police, or a police,
state.
I am opposed to arbitrary and unwarranted use of power or au-
thority from whatever source or against any individual or group.
I believe in a government of law, not of men, where law is above,
any man, and not any man above law,
I consider these principles sacred. I regard them as the basic fabric
of our American way of life, and I believe in them as living realities,,
and not as mere words on paper.
That is my creed. Those are the principles I have worked for..
Together those are the principles that I have been prepared in the
past to fight for, and am prepared to defend at any time with my
life, if need be.
That is all I am going to say at this time. I am ready for any
qiiestions you may wish to ask. [Applause.]
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Solomon Adler ?
Mr. White. I do.
Mr. Stripling. How well do you know him ?
Mr. White. He has worked for me for some 10 years. He has
been most of that time in China, but he has been off and on in the
office.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Norman Bursler?
Mr. White. I have met him a few times ; not well.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Frank V. Coe ?
Mr. White. I know Frank Coe very well.
Mr. Stripling. How long have you known him ?
Mr. White. He and I came to the Treasury — I never knew him
before then — in 1934. I was impressed with his ability then, as I
am now, and he worked for the Treasury for several years. He
taught — I tried to get him to leave his teaching and come to the Treas-
ury, I think it was, when the war broke out. I think he did.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Lauchlin Currie ?
Mr. White. I have known Lauchlin Currie for many years. He and
I taught at Harvard together, and were students there together.
]Mr. Stripling. Do you know Soma S. Gold ?
Mr. White. Mrs. Gold; yes, I lo. She worked in the Division
for, I think, a couple of years.
Mr. Stripling. That is the Monetary Research ?
880 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. WiriTE. In the Division of Monetary Research.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know William J. Gold or Bela Gold?
Mr. White. I do not think so. Is that her husband ?
INIr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr, White. She once introduced me to her husband; said a few
words.
Mr. Stripling, Do you know Irving Kaplan ?
Mr, White, Irving Kaplan? Yes,
Mr, Stripling, How well do you know him ?
Mr, White. Fairly well. We used to play ball. He is not a very
good player, incidentally, [Laughter.]
Mr. Stripling. Baseball?
Mr, White, This was volleyball, and baseball, both, Softball.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Abraham G. Silverman ?
Mr. White. Who is that?
Mr. Stripling. Silverman.
Mr. White. Well, George Silverman ; oh, yes ; very well.
Mr. Stripling. And you have testified you knew Nathan Gregory
Silvermaster.
Mr. White. Very definitely ; yes.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know William H. Taylor ?
Mr. White. Bill Taylor; yes, he worked for me — I would not know
exactly — some 6 or 7 years. Part of that time he was in China; part,
I think he was in a prisoners' camp in China, I am not sure, but I know
him well,
Mr. Stripling. Do you know William L. Ullmann?
Mr. White. I know William Ullmann well. He also worked for
me.
Mr, Stripling. When Mr. Silvermaster testified before the commit-
tee recently he stated that you appointed him to attend the Bretton
Woods Monetary Conference in 1944, I believe it was,
Mr, White. I did.
Mr. Stripling. As the interpreter.
Mr. White, Well, more than an interpreter. We were dealing,
among some 40 nations, with the Russians, and it was very difficult to
conduct negotiations with them. Everything had to be translated
back and forth two ways. We spent months, literally months, in our
prior conversations, and I thought it would be an excellent thing to
have an economist and a man who knew Russian there to help in the
interpretation and in the discussions, and I was glad to have him
there. I asked him to come, and he got leave. I do not remember
where he was at that time with what agency, and, unfortunately, I
think he got ill, either the first or the second day, so he was of no use.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know John Abt ?
INIr. Wtiite. I have heard his name. I may have met him, but I
do not think so.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Lee Pressman ?
Mr. White. I know Lee Pressman well.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Henry Collins ?
Mr. White. I do not think I liave ever met the gentleman.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Alger Hiss ?
Mr. White. I know Alger Hiss ; not very well.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Donald Hiss?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 881
Mr. White. I know them both.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever know anyone in 1935 or 1936 who
went under the name of Carl, C-a-r-1 ^
Mr. White. I do not recollect any such name. I may have; it is a
long time ago.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever know — I believe you stated you did
not know a person by the name of Whittaker Chambers.
Mr. White. To the best of my recollection I remember no such
name.
Mr. Stripling. Now, Mr. Chambers has testified that he was the
courier for a Connnunist apparatus, operating in the Government in
1935, and 1936, and part of 1937. He testified that he was known only
as Carl to the members of that apparatus. And I ask you again, do
you remember any person in that period known to you only as Carl?
Mr. White. I have no recollection. I doubt very much whether I
would have known any man by just the first name. It would have
been very peculiar.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Victor Perlo ?
Mr. White. I know Victor Perlo ; not well.
Mr. Stripling. How many times would you say you had been at
the home of Nathan Gregory Silvermaster?
Mr. White. Oh, over the years, I suppose, half a dozen times, maybe
a little more, maybe a little less.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever go into Mr. Silvermaster's basement
at 5515 Thirtieth Street?
Mr. White. Yes; they asked me that question before, and I lis-
tened to the question being asked of Mr. Currie.
The Chairman. Whom do you mean by "they'' ?
Mr. White. Did somebody ask me something?
Tlie Chairman. Whom do you mean by "they'' asked you the ques-
tion before?
Mr. White. At the grand jury. Maybe I am anticipating, so I will
pass that. I was collecting my memory. Yes, I was at the basement.
It was at a party, and they were playing ping-pong. I fancied myself
a little as a ping-pong player, and we played a few times.
The Chairman. Just a minute, right there. Let me see that note.
One thing I cannot reconcile, Mr. White, you send me a note and you
say that :
I am recovering from a severe heart attack. I vpould appreciate it if the
chairman would give me 5 or 10 minutes rest after each hour.
For a person who had a severe heart condition, you certainly can
play a lot of sports.
Mr, White. I did not intend that this note should be read aloud.
I do not know any reason why it should be public that I am ill, but
I think probably one of the reasons why I suffered a heart attack was
because I played so many sports, and so well. The heart attack which
I suffered was last year. I am speaking of playing ping-pon^, and
I was a fair tennis player, and a pretty good ball player, many, years
prior to that. I hope that clears that up, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Yes, sir. [Applause.]
80408 — 48 25
882 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
I would say that you had an athlete's heart. Go ahead, Mr. Strip-
Hug. -
Mr. Stripling. Getting back to the question, Mr. White, whether you
were in the Silvermaster basement, did you ever notice any photo-
graphic equipment ?
Mr. White. I do not recollect. I do not think I would have paid
any attention to it. I am not at all interested in photography myself.
1 clo not think I have snapped a picture in 20 years. It might have
been ; it might not. I do know, though, that Mr. Ulmann Avas inter-
ested in photography. I do know that. He had some splendid
photographs in his home, which were, he said, done by him — Silver-
master — done by him, and they looked quite professional. And I
also remember that many years prior to that, or as a result of that,
I asked whether he would not take some pictures of my children, which
he very generously did, and they are very excellent pictures. We still
have them, and they are hanging in my bedroom.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. White, the names that I read to you a few mo-
ments ago, were the people that Elizabeth T. Bentley testified com-
prise the so-called Silvermaster group. A number of these people
worked for you. I believe you admitted knowing all but one.
Mr. White. Not admitted ; affirmed, if you do not mind, Mr. Strip-
ling.
Mr. Stripling. I will be glad to change the term. Would you tell
me whether or not you have ever had any reason to suspect that any
of those people were members of the Communist Party?
Mr. White. No, except one; and if I may cite the occasion
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. White. It was either 1942 or 1943 — I do not think it was as
late as 1944; I think 1942 or 1943 — Mr. Silvermaster spoke to me,
saying that he was being asked to resign from the Board of Economic
Warfare on the ground that he was being accused of being a Com-
munist ; and he asked whether I could not be of some assistan.ee to get
his name cleared. He had never impressed me as a Communist ; he
was an able economist and interested in world afi'airs. We had had
many discussions.
I said to him — well, I was a little taken aback, and I said, "Well,
are you a Communist" He said, "No." I said, "Well, what is there
that you can give me or show me or what charges have been made ? I
cannot do anything for you unless I know something about your back-
ground, more than I did." He said he would send me a copy of a
reply which he made, I think, to the Civil Service Commission. I am
not quite sure.
He subsequently sent me a 10- or 20-page--it was a fairly long —
statement, in which there was, prefacing each paragraph, an allega-
tion or a claim or a statement, apparently made by somebody. I
would judge from the paper that he had access to the charge that was
made. And then his reply was set up there.
After reading the reply it convinced me of the integrity of the man,
and that he was not a Communist.
I then went to Mr. Herbert Gaston, who was Assistant Secretary
of the Treasury, and o]i the Loyalty Board, and a fairer and more
conscientious man never served the Government, as anybody who knew
or who happened to know Mr. He^rt Gaston would testify. I went
to liim and I said that this man waS being asked to resign from the
St
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 883
Board — I think it was subsequent to that — and I said he was being
asked to resi<2;n now.
I can well understand and thoroughly sympathize with the view
that if there is any slightest question of a man's being a Communist,
he ought not to be in a position — ought not to hold a position where
there was any confidential information passed; that even though there
was no evidence or proof, a mere suspicion was enough. We were at
war, and there was no need for that. I said that I was not interested
in seeing him get his post back. In fact, I did not think he should.
I said that I understood that this record was such that he could not
get his old post back with the Department of Agriculture, wdiich was,
I had presmned, nothing to do with any possible confidential informa-
tion; and I said, unless there was evidence, it seemed to me that it
would be a darned shame for a man to lose his livelihood and not be
able to work for the Government unless there was a case against him,
and I said, "Mr. Gaston" — or "Herbert,'" as I called him — "would you
please look into this and satisfy yourself as to the merits of the case."
]\Ir. Gaston said he would. Mr. Gaston subsequently informed me
lie did, and I think the man was cleared. He must have been because
he got a job in the Department of Agriculture. That was the only
occasion in which there was any question in my mind raised as to any
of these men that you mention being a Communist.
Mr. Stripling. Now. we had before the committee this week Victor
Pei'lo.
Mr. White. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Perlo, I believe, testified that he worked in the
Monetary Research Division in the Treasury Department; is that
correct ?
]Mr. White. Yes ; he did.
Mr. Stripling. Were you responsible for bringing Mr. Perlo into
that Division ?
Mr. White. No; I do not think I even knew Mr. Perlo then; I
might have met him, because I probably have met almost every
economist in Washington — most of the good ones, at any rate — and
I was not in charge of Monetary Research at that time. I was
Assistant Director — Assistant Secretary — when he came on, but I
subsequently met him, and he did a number of things for me. He
Avas a specialist on United States cyclical movements of business
conditions.
Mr. Stripling. Did you employ William Ullmann?
Mr. Whiit:. William Ullmann I employed myself; yes.
Mr. Stripling. And did you employ any of the other people whom
I read to you ?
Mr. White. Well, some of them I employed myself, and I will indi-
cate, if you like, the remainder, if they worked in the Division while
I was the Director. I would have approved their employment. Not
only would I have approved their employment, but usually, unless
it was a person with a low classification, I would have interrogated
him solely for the purpose of ascertaining the technical competence,
sometimes for short periods, sometimes for a long period. It depends
on his history and his academic background.
Mr. Stripling. Now, Mr. Perlo and Mr. Ullmann, as well as your
friend Mr. Silvermaster
Mr. White. Yes.
884 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr, Stripling. Have all been accused.
Mr. White. Mr. Ullmann is also my friend.
Mr. Stripling. Make him your friend, too.
Mr. White. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. What about Mr. Perlo ?
Mr. White. Not that I would not wish him to be a friend. I just
do not happen to know him very well.
Mr. Stripling. Regardless of friendship involved, they have all
been before this committee and have all refused to state under oath
whether or not they were members of the Communist Party. Do
you have any attitude on their refusal to answer that very pertinent
question since two of them were former employees in your depart-
ment and the other a very close friend of yours whom you interceded
to keep in the Government?
Mr. White. No; I do not think I would know what the situation
is. Apparently they have had the advice of counsel. I suppose it
depends on what counsel you have. I do not happen to have any
counsel that I would seek advice of that kind from. I do my own
thinking.
Mr. Stripling. If you were still head of the Monetary Research
Mr. White. What is that?
Mr. Stripling. If you were still Assistant Secretary of the Treas-
ury, would you reemploy these people if they refused to answer that
question ?
Mr. White. Well, I should hardly do so under the circumstances.
Of course not. I mean, I would want to know a lot more about it,
and want to know a lot of the evidence, would want to turn it over
to the proper investigating authorities, and have them be extremely
careful. I should not want to injure an innocent man, and I should
not take alone myself anybody's word about anybody else being Red
or a Communist, but I certainly should want a thorough investigation
made. As a matter of fact, we did that with all cases.
Mr. Stripling. You investigated all these people?
Mr. White. I did not, no; but we have a very excellent Secret
Service in the Treasury, and all cases were turned over to them for
investigation. I say, "all," I do not think that was quite true in
the beginning. I think when I first came there, I am not sure that
that was done ; but several years later, when it was a Treasury ruling
or an administration ruling, I do not remember, that everyone should
be so investigated, they made an investigation not only of everyone
who came in, but everyone who had been in and they had to be cleared.
Mr. Stripling. And that investigation was made by the Secret
Service ?
Mr. White. It was turned over to the Secret Service of the Treasury
Department.
Mr. Stripling. And did you subsequently review their reports?
Mr. White. I did not review it. We just took their findings.
Mr. Stripling. Did they make findings ?
Mr. White. Oh, yes. I mean, they would say, if I remember cor-
rectly, it would say either "Approved" — I do not remember when
there ever was a case of disapproval. There may have been, but I
do not remember.
Mr. Stripling. You do not know of anybody who was ever asked
to resign ? i
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 885
Mr. White. I do not remember, no. I do not think there was. I
think if there had been I think I would have remembered.
Mr. Stripling, Was Mr. Perlo ever asked to resign from the
Treasury ?
Mr. White. I do not know ; not while I was there.
Mr. Stripling. Wlien did you leave there ?
Mr. White. I left the Treasury in the spring of 1946.
Mr. Stripling. Was Harold Glasser employed in your department 2
Mr. White. Harold Glasser was employed in my division; yes.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know whether Harold Glasser was ever
asked, together with Victor Perlo, to resign because of his being a
security risk?
Mr. White. That, I do not.
Mr, Stripling. You never heard of that ?
Mr. W^hite. I never heard of it.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know whether Harold Glasser was the sub-
ject of a loyalty investigation?
Mr. White, Yes : I do,
Mr. Stripling. Did you intercede in behalf of Mr. Glasser?
Mr. White. What is that, sir?
Mr, Stripling. Did you intercede in behalf of Mr. Glasser?
Mr. White. I did not intercede in behalf of Mr. Glasser, but I know
that either the Civil Service or representatives of the FBI came to see
me. I could not be sure of the date, but it was around in the forties,
and asked me about Glasser, saying they were making a loyalty proof,
and I naturally read the file that was on him.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. White, one of the members of the committee has
asked me to show you pictures of Whittaker Chambers.
Mr. White, Yes,
Mr, Stripling. Or the individual who testified that he was known
as Carl in 1935 and 1936,
Mr, White, Yes.
Mr. Stripling. The pictures I have here, one from Time magazine
of August 16, which picture was taken by Thomas McAvoy of Life,
and the other appeared in the New York Herald Tribune of August
4, which is an Acme Telefoto. I will show you these two pictures,
and ask you if you recall an individual who resembles Whittaker
Chambers. [Showing witness two photographs.]
Mr. White. I think I have seen that one [indicating].
Mr. Striplin^. I should like to state, however, that according to
our information that individual is much heavier now than he was in
1935 or 1936.
Mr, White. This one. I think, I have seen [indicating]. No ; I have
no recollection of ever having met him. Of course, that is 12 or 14
years ago.
The Chairman. What was the answer ?
Mr, White. What is that, sir ?
The Chairman. What was the answer?
Mr, White. I say I have no recollection of ever having met him.
It was 12 or 15 years ago, I must have met anywhere from 5 to 10,000
persons in the last 15 years, but I have no recollection. It may be
that he did meet me, and it may be that I did chat with him.
886 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. In the event that you had met that individual, Mr.
White, on, say, as many as three or four occasions, would you recol-
lect whether you had or had not met him ? •
Mr. White. The oftener I was supposed to have met him, the more
nearly would it be that I would have remembered. It partly depends
on where, what the conversation was. I should think so, three or four
times, I do not know.
Mr. Nixon. Well, assuming that a meeting did occur on as many
as four occasions, would your testimony be that you do not recollect
having met this person ?
Mr. White. My testimony would have been the same. I do not
recollect ever having met him. It is possible that I may have met a
chap like that in any one of a dozen conferences or cocktail parties
or meetings.
Mr. Nixon. Suppose you had met this individual on four occasions
by himself, and were engaged in conversation with him, would you
recollect whether you did or did not?
Mr. White. I should think I would — I should think I would, but
I am not sure.
Mr. Nixon. And you do not want to say then that if you had met
him on three or four occasions, whether you do or not remember hav-
ing met him?
Mr. White. I do not recollect ever having met him.
Mr. Nixon. You do not recall having met any person who was
known to you by the name of Carl during that period ?
Mr. White. No ; I do not. Something I remember very definitely,
though, judging from the papers, and I am quoting only from the
papers, or referring to the papers, that the gentleman said that he met
me and was convincing me or tried to convince me, either not to go
into or leave — I do not remember precisely — the Communist Party
or the Communist ring. That, I would have remembered. And that
I can affirm without any qualification or hesitation or shortness of
memory or breath could not possibly have been so.
Mr. Nixon. I think it might be possible, Mr. Wliite, that you are
confusing the testimony that Mr. Chambers gave in regard to you,
and that which he gave in regard to Alger Hiss. It was Mr. Hiss,
who Mr. Chambers testified that he asked to leave the Communist
Party, not you.
Mr. White. Well, that is possible.
Mr. NixoN. There is no claim, jn other words, by Mr. Chambers
that you were asked to come into the party or out of the party.
Mr. White. I am sorry, I did not read the testimony.
Mr. Nixon. I just wanted to have you understand that.
Mr. White. I happened to be out in the country most of the time,
and the local papers do not give much coverage of the news.
Mr. Nixon. Your testimony is that you did not during the vear
1935 or 1937
Mr. White. I do not recollect having met that individual.
Mr. Nixon. I am sorry, but I did not hear you. You what?
• Mr. White. I s.-'id I do not recollect having met that individual;
I am merely re]ica,;ing what I said before.
The Chairman. (]o ahead, Mr. Stripling- ;
Mr. Strip' inc. !Mr. White, did you attend the United Nations meet-
ing in San Francisco?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 887
Mr. White. Yes : I did.
Mr. StriplinCx. While you were there did you lose your brief case?
Mr. White. No.
Mr. Stripling. Was it stolen ?
Mr. White. No, not to my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. It did not disappear?
Mr. White. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Were any tiles ever missing or stolen from the Divi-
sion of Monetary Research of the Treasury Department ?
Mr. White. I recollect a case in which there were two folders con-
taining material, which had been left on the desk of somebody —
somebody had worked on them, and when he came back in the morning,
he had reported to somebody that they were no longer there.
My attention was brought to it at once. I called in the Secret Serv-
ice— I do not remember when it was, but judging from the reaction it
must have been during the wartime, because prior to that, I do not
think we would have paid much attention to it — called in the Secret
Service, and asked them to look into it, and then requested them to
suggest or recommend or instruct us as to any measures which they
regarded as necessary to tighten up on the handling of that material,
because it was a large division, and we happened to handle literally
thousands and thousands and thousands of documents, some of which
were confidential, and some of which were not. They did make recom-
mendations ; we did follow them.
That is the only occasion that I know that things were missing.
Mr. Stripling. Were those files ever recovered ?
Mr. White. Not to my knowledge. No, as far as I know they dis-
appeared.
Mr. Stripling. What were the files ?
Mr. MuNDT. Pardon me, I did not hear the question. Was it your
testimony that the files were never recovered?
Mr. White. Not to my knowledge. I do not think they were. In-
cidentally, tliey were not, as described, they were not terribly im-
portant, but the fact that two folders could disappear was a matter of
considerable concern.
Mr. Stripling. Five folders, were they not?
Mr. White. File folders ?
Mr. Stripling. Five instead of three.
Mr. White. I thought there were two, but they may have been three.
Mr. Stripling. There were five, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. White. Could you give me the year ? I am curious.
Mr. Stripling. It was March 24, 1943.
Mr. White. 1943. Your investigating agencies do very well.
Mr. Stripling. Oh, yes ; but not well enough, I am afraid. I have
the report here, Mr. Chairman, regarding these files. There is some
confidential aspect of it which I do not want to read into the record,
but I will give it to the committee, if the committee wants to look at it.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Stripling, you had better proceed
while we are looking at this.
Mr. Stripling. Go ahead, Mr. Mundt, if you want to ask some
questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Mundt. Dr. White, in your statement, or in answer to a ques-
tion, rather, you mentioned that you at one time had some suspicions
888 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
about the loyalty of Mr. Silvermaster because he came to you and said
that he had been charged with being a Communist and was about to
lose his job in the Treasury Department because of its important
nature to our national security, in view of these charges ; that you were
disturbed by them and asked him to submit what evidence he could
that he was not a Communist, and that he submitted a report of 10 to
20 pages in which he set out the allegations and his replies thereto.
Mr. White. That is correct.
Mr. MuNDT. What other evidence did you find besides the unsub-
stantiated statements of Mr. Silvermaster that the charges were false ?
Mr. White. None. My whole evaluation and appraisal of the man
was that he was not a Communist. I was a little bit shocked by what
he told me. I made no pretense at being a person who could examine
intelligently or run down the basis of them; I was sufficiently im-
pressed with his answer to be convinced myself to ask Mr. Gaston to
see that the matter was carefully examined. My suspicions arose
when he told me that ; they died when the case was cleared and when
I had read the document, and I had no suspicions whatsoever subse-
quent to that or prior to that.
Mr. MuNDT. After Mr. Gaston's investigation, if he made one, and
after it was brought to his attention, at least, what happened to Mr.
Silvermaster's employment status ? Did he remain with the Treasury
or was he then
Mr. White. He was not in the Treasury. I did that as a friend.
He was with the Board of Economic Warfare.
Mr. MuNDT. Very well.
Mr. White. And the sole concern I had was that he could get a job
somewhere in the Government where there was no question of his
having access to confidential information.
Mr. MuNDT. But he was removed from the Board of Economic War-
fare then on the basis of these charges and transferred to the Depart-
ment of Agriculture.
Mr. White. I think that was prior to when I spoke. Now, I am
not sure whether it was prior or whether he was in the process of it.
Mr. MuNDT. But, it was as a result of those charges that he was
removed from BEW and transferred to Agriculture.
Mr. White. That was my understanding; that is what he told me,
and I was quite in sympathy with that action.
Mr. MuNDT. And he apparently solicited your aid at the time he
was being transferred, because you said he did not want to lose his
means of livelihood, that you sympathized with him in that very nor-
mal, human motive. But had he already been transferred to one po-
sition from the other there would have been ho need for him to solicit
your aid.
Mr. White. I do not mean that he had already been transferred,
but I think he had been asked to resign.
Mr. Mundt. Asked to resign.
Mr. White. I think that was it.
Mr. Mundt. As of your own knowledge, you have no substantiating
evidence to confirm the statements that he made. It simply appeared
to you convincing enough so that you felt warranted in calling atten-
tion of Mr. Gaston
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 889
Mr. White. Congressman Mundt, when taken into context with
the numerous discussions that you have had with the man over a num-
ber of years before and, of course, since
Mr, Mundt. I am simply trying to establish for the record that you
are not here saying that of your own knowledge and investigation
you can categorically say that Mr. Silvermaster was not a Communist.
Mr. White. Oh, no; I never made any investigation of that.
lyir, Mundt. That was the poiat I was trying to get at.
Mr. White. If I thought he was a Communist, why, I would not
have associated so closely with him as I did.
Mr. Mundt. In your answers you said that you knew a man by the
name of Coe.
Mr. WnrrE. Frank Coe.
Mr. Mundt. You spoke very highly of him, and at some length.
Mr. White. Well, I should not want to have it thought that I
would not speak highly of a number of others that I mentioned. I
happened to speak of Frank Coe because he happened to be my
assistant.
Mr. Mundt. That is right.
Mr. White. Yes.
Mr. Mundt. I am not going to ask you to speak about a number
of others, but I wonder if you speak as highly in your praise of
Nathan Gregory Silvermaster,
Mr, White, I did not know Silvermaster as well, I know Coe
almost exclusively from his technical competence and ability, and
he is a very charming chap and a very fine chap. He has very high
technical competence, and, as I said, he impresses me as a man of fine
character, and that is in no way suggesting that I might not say the
same about others about whom you may ask me. But you are asking
me about Frank Coe.
Mr. Mundt. Now, I am asking you about Mr. Silvermaster,
Mr, White. That is right.
Mr. Mundt. You do not care to speak of him in the same high terms
tnat you do of Mr. Coe ?
Mr. White. I should not hesitate — I think that Mr. Silvermaster —
anyone who knows him would say that he is a very charming fellow ;
incidentally, a good singer, and a good musician, and a pretty good
athlete, and he is a man who has thought a great deal, has read a
great deal, his conversation is very interesting, and he knows a great
deal about world affairs, and I do not know as much about his com-
petence as an economist, because he is not in the field in which I
was in — he was in a different speciality in economics. It is like asking
a cancer specialist about how good a nose and throat man is.
Mr. Mundt. I might add that he lo&i; a considerable amount of his
charm when he appeared before this committee and refused to testify
under oath as to whether or not he was a member of the Communist
Party on the basis that his answer might incriminate him.
Mr. White. That is quite possible, but I was not a member of the
committee, nor am I here ; and I do not know how he behaved.
Mr. Mundt. Do you believe that a member of the Communist Party
can be loyal to the American Government as a public servant in a high,
important Government post and a member of the Communist Party
at one and the same time?
890 QOMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. White. I sliould not think so, Congressman. I would not have
employed anybody I knew or suspected to be a Communist tp such a
post. I might, if I were hiring people, clerks, or something where
there was no opportunity ta influence policy or to obtain information,
I believe. I do not know. I was not faced with that choice. .
Mr. MtJNDT, The difficulty. Dr. White, is that clerks are the type
of people who pick up exposed folders and steal them.
Mi'. White. Yes; but, Congressman Mundt, you are talking about
something we now know. If you go back to 1937, 1938, 1939, 1940,
1941, 1942, and those years, that was not in the forefront of our mind.
We were concerned with the ienemy, not at that time with what was
regarded to be our ally, and as a matter of fact, I know one occasion
in which there was a suspicion of somebody being in contact with the
enemy, and we took such steps as were called for. It proved that the
suspicion was unfounded. That is why I would not- want-to mention
the man's name. ' - i^;? t:;::; i ■
Mr. Mundt. Of course, during that period of tim6 that you mention,
Russia was not always an ally. That was during the time of the
Hitler-Stalin pact. ,.:^d;-;-f •
Mr. White. That is true. Wlien they made the pact with Germany,
and when they invaded Finland, they certainly were not, and I think
if you will take the record of our Department, you will find it very
hard to find anywhere in Washington or anywhere in Congress a
division or a group of meri who worked harder to prosecute — to help
the Allies, prior to our entrance into the war, than the Division of
Monetary Research and the United States Treasury. The records
will show that. I remember very well writing a memorandum — I am
kind of proud of it in retrospect; I suppose we read the memoranda
in which we were good forecasters and forget the ones in which we
guessed wrongly, but anyway, I remember this one which I had
written to Secretary Morgenthau in 1938, and repeated in 1939, the
early part of 1939, saying how necessary it was for us to strengthen
England's and France's hands, and to do what we could to strengthen
China, because I said — I will not repeat it verbatim; I do not re-
member it verbatim — but the essence of it was that Germany means to
attack, and contrary to the beliefs held in many quarters, she means
to attack in the west, and not in the east.
Mr. Mundt. The reason I asked the question about whether you
would employ Communists or whether you felt that Communists
would be loyal to the Government is to avoid any possible misinterpre-
tation of the creed which you gave as yours, which is very highly
commendable, except that you said something that may be subject
to misinterpretation when you said you were not concerned with a
man's political conviction. - •-.
Mr. White. I do not know whether I said that. Congressman Mundt.
if I did, I am happy that you corrected the impression. I should
have said this: We never asked a man whether he was a Democrat
or a Republican. I could not tell you now how many Republicans
we had on our staff or how many Democrats. Oh, in the course of
conversations, you get to know something about a man's political affilia-
tions, largely in a facetious comment, but we never inquired, and so
far as Communists are concerned, if we ever knew or suspected one,
we did not hire him, and we assume that the Secret Service would
clear all the others.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 891
Mr. MuNDT. Just how well did you know Victor Perlo ?
Mr. Whfte. Not very well. I may have met him a few times before,
he began to work in the Treasury, I think I did. I think he was a
member of some committees or some groups, and I met him, I think,
when he began working. It is quite possible ; it would have been almost
routine — not almost, but it would have been routine for the Assistant
Director, or the Director, to introduce any new man if he was not
low in the classifications, to the various officials who had concern over
his Work, and he would have been brought in and been interviewed
by me. I am pretty sure I met him a few times before that.
iNIr. MuNDT. How important were the positions that he held in your
Department?
Mr. White. Not important. He was taken on, as was explained to
me by his director, the man who employed him — he was taken on, if
I remember correctly, because they needed somebody to concentrate
on the possibilities of a boom and bust in the United States. That was
after the war. and he was supposed to be a specialist in that. I think
that is what he did over at the Department in which he worked, and
he was taken over for that reason, to my recollection.
Mr. iMuNDT. You said you had been in the country and had not been
following the hearings.
Mr. White. As closelj' as I could. There is onl}^ one local paper
where I am.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Victor Perlo is the man who, in testifying before
this committee, in bringing a prepared statement, in which he first
categorically denied the charges about his being a Communist and
about being the head of one of the espionage rings — when advised of
his status under the perjury laws of the United States, and the fact
that if those denials could subsequently be proved false, he would be
subject to perjury — after consulting counsel, he sought and received
permission from the committee to delete his denials from his prepared
statement.
' Now, as a very able and highly educated American citizen, who has
held high Government positions
Mr. White. Thank you. I sincerel}^ mean that.
Mr. Mundt. That is quite all right. What would be your reaction
to a witness who would engage in that kind of behavior, and in charges
as serious as these?
Mr. Whiti:. Congressman JMundt, I have known little about this
sort of thing prior to these hearings, and the FBI grand jury hearings,
when naturally I became much interested in them ; and I do not know
in judging somebody else where to draw the line between what they
feel is their proper conduct before a committee or before a court.
Would you mind if I digressed a little bit — I will try to be short
about this but, but 3'ou asked me a question, which is pretty searching.
If you do not care to listen, Mr. Chairman, I will stop.
The Chairman. No ; it is perfectly all right for you to digress a
bit, but please make it a bit.
Mr. White. I will try. If- 1 do not, you stop me. You know, our
country was founded, among other things, on the principle that there
shall be no star chamber proceedings. In fact, the people who wrote
our Constitution revolted against that very practice of star chamber
proceedings in which innocent people were convicted of crimes, and
they had no opportunity for a hearing, and it was because of that — I
892 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
am not telling you this because I know you know that equally as well
as I know it, if not more so ; that is your job in life. It is because of
tliat that the Bill of Rights was included, which includes the right of
trial by jury, the right to cross-question^ the right to have counsel
who can cross-examine, and all the paraphernalia that stands for
Anglo-American justice when a man is tried. That, I think you will
agree, is one of the cardinal principles of Anglo-American and Ameri-
can Government. That is what we were built on.
Now then, you ask a man — and I do not know what he thinks; I
have not seen him, but trying to put myself in his position, possibly
he feels — possibly — that there is a frame-up ; he feels he is is not getting
consideration; maybe he has attorneys who look at this in a hard-
boiled fashion, and say, "Now, look, never mind the flowers and the
furbelows ; you have certain rights and you should defend them. If
you do not want to take any chance against making statements or
any frame-up or anything of that sort" — mind you, I am not suggest-
ing for one moment that this committee is not perfectly sincere in its
investigations; that is for you to judge.
The Chairman. I do not know that this is getting anywhere.
Mr. MuNDT. I am interested in it.
Mr. White. Therefore, I say — Mr. Chairman, I can talk to Mr.
Mundt privately.
The Chairman. Go ahead ; proceed. They are interested, and they
would like to have you tell us that.
Mr. White. All I want to say, and I will wind it up, is to say that,
therefore, I would hesitate to judge any man who comes before this
committee, and I recognize that congressional committees must have
broader scope than courts, I have been before them, and I know
it is absurd to expect the kind of procedure in a congressional com-
mittee that you get in court. It would stop legislation ; it would serve
no useful purpose; it is hard enough now to get good legislation with-
out introducing a lot of routine. I recognize that.
The Chairman. I think this is beside the point of the inquiry, so
you will please direct your answers and the members of the com-
mittee will direct their questions to the witness concerning the inquiry
on espionage.
Mr. White. It is a very reasonable request, Mr. Chairman, and 1
will finish my comments to Mr, Mundt in private, if he cares to
listen.
The Chairman. That is all right.
Mr. Mundt. I do not know anything more pertinent to the inquiry
on espionage than this reference to Mr. Victor Perlo, because he is
one of the persons involved in it.
The Chairman. If you think it is pertinent, then you and this
witness can meet and talk about it.
Mr, White. It will be a pleasure on my part. [Applause.]
Mr. Mundt. Maybe we can approach it this way. Having heard
and read about the reply that Mr. Victor Perlo made to this com-
mittee, and when we gave him his opportunity, in the best court of
this country, which is the court of public opinion which
Mr. White. If it is properly presented, Congi'essman Mundt. If
the whole story is presented, I agree with you.
IVfr. Mundt. Now, I am referring, you understand
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 893
Mr. White. And the public could read something beside the head-
lines, Congressman Mundt, you know that, as well as I.
Mr. Mundt. I am referring to a statement made by Mr. Perlo, not
in answer to a question made by this committee, but one in which
he and his counsel thoughtfully schemed out and typewrote and
mimeographed and gave to the press, and then, when being asked
whether he could stand on it, and stand up under perjury, again in
consultation with attorneys, with counsel, deleted the part denying
the charges.
I want to know specifically from you now what your reaction
would be, as an average American citizen, to that kind of performance.
Mr. White. I do not know. That nonpluses me. I would have
to give that thought. I do not care to be any man's judge or the
judge of any man's behavior under conditions which prevail at the
present — I was going to say courtroom — but I mean in this committee
hearing. I would be taken aback. But I do not know, Congressman.
Mr. Mundt. You would be taken aback?
Mr. White. Yes.
Mr. Mundt. Well, I certainly was taken aback, taken aback to the
point where in myopinion either Victor Perlo is guilty of the charges,
guilty as sin. or is an unmitigated ass. I do not know which.
Mr. White. I simply mean. I did not want to associate myself with
that role. Maybe yes, maybe no.
Mr. Mundt. That is all.'
The Chairman. We will recess for 5 minutes.
(Short recess.)
The Chairman. The conmiittee will come to order. Everyone
please take his seat.-
Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. White
Mr. AVhite. May I thank you publicly, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. White, a moment ago I may have left an impres-
sion with you — I said a moment ago I may have left an impression
with you in regard to the testimony of Mr. Chambers which, upon
looking at the record, I found may have been incorrect. I indicated
to you that Mr. Chambers had testified that he had gone to see Mr.
Hiss and liad requested that he leave the party, and that Mr. Hiss
had refused.
As far as you are concerned, his testimony was not that he had
requested that you leave the party, but that he did discuss with you
the fact that he was leaving what he termed the Communist move-
ment, and that he advised apparently that you would do also.
Now, you can state categorically, I understand, that that is not true.
Mr. White. Well, I do not remember whether anybody ever told
me they were leaving the Communist movement. I think that would
have stuck in my memory, but I very definitely can say that no one
ever asked me to leave the movement, because I never belonged to it.
Mr. Nixon. As I say, there is a difference between party member-
ship and maybe adherence to the tenets of the party, and I think
that was the distinction Mr. Chambers was making in his testimony.
His indication was not, in his testimony t.t that time, that you were
actually a party member, you understand; that is the point that 1
wish to make.
894 COMMUNIST ESPION-AGE
Mr. White. Well, my statement would go for a request tliat I cease
being — what did you say — a first cousin to this movement?
Mr. Nixon. Whatever you like.
Mr. White. Whatever you like to call it.
Mr. Nixon. In other words, the point I want to clear up is that you
are stating for the record that at no time did this man by the name
of Carl discuss with you the fact that he was leaving the Commu-
nist Party, and discuss also the matter of your, shall we say, ceasing
to be a friend of the Communist Party — shall we put it that way.
Mr. White. The first, certainly, not to my recollection. The second,
I certainly would have remembered, and the answer is "No."
Mr. Nixon. There is one other comment that I would like to make,
Mr. Chairman. I was interested, as was the rest of the committee,
as were the other members of the committee, in Mr. White's testi-
mony and statement in regard to the method in which these proceed-
ings w^ei'e conducted. The members of this committee also are very
critical of star-chamber proceedings, and as Mr. White, of course,
being a rather noted scholar in various fields knows, star-chamber
proceedings were secret proceedings.
Mr. Wpiite. Precisely.
Mr. Nixon. They were conducted in such a way in which people
were not allowed to present their side of the case. They were con-
ducted secretly. A judgment was reached, and announced without
any opportunity for members of the press — if they had a press at
that time — and of course we know this was historical, or members of
the press or members of the person's family or his friends to be pres-
ent to hear the charges, and to see what they were doing, and there
has been some criticism of this committee on the ground, possibly,
that these proceedings should have been secret. I am glad lo note
that Mr. White has indicated that he does not favor secret proceedings,
and that he favors an open hearing, as we are having at the present
time.
Mr. White. Congressman Nixon, I am reluctant to pursue a point
which the chairman feels is a digression. I should not, however, like
to leave the impression that I get from your remarks that you agree
with me with respect to a certain matter. I w^as not referring to the
question of secret or unsecret hearings. I was referring to the fact
that the secret hearings frequently made a man guilty, and he had
no chance to prove his innocence, according to the kind of court pro-
cedure which our American fathers thought was necessary; and you
will note when they put into the Bill of Rights one of the rights that
a man shall have the right of trial by jury, they did not say merely
that he shall have the right to appear in an open court, that he shall
have the right of trial by jury.
I do not know, but I think, it is a reasonable assumption that you
are a lawyer, Representative Nixon, and you hesitate, possibly not —
there are lawyers on the committee — and they will recognize that
there is a very considerable difference between a witness' appearing
before a committee, with the kind of procedures which the committee
has — the committee is courteous, but I am not referring to the cour-
tesies extended to witnesses, but rather to the right that a witness
w^ould have to cross-examine through his counsel other witnesses, and
all the other protective devices which our fathers felt were neces-
COMMUNIST ESPrON-AGE 895
*
sary to surround an individual who was accused of a crime. That
is what I had reference to.
Mr. Nixon. The only thing that I wanted to get clear was that
you were opposed to having secret hearings, is that correct?
Mr. White. I would not say that. I think that hearings of this
kind should have been secret — should have been a court proceeding.
Mr. Nixon. Court proceedings are not secret.
Mr. White. Well, no — until there were grounds for evidence for
indictment, and, then, I certainly think they ought to be open, of
course. I think the public ought to know what is going on.
But, Congressman, I think you know — I am sure you appreciate
that you need to balance the need for conducting a hearing of this
kind against the dangers of doing irreparable harm to some innocent
persons. That is a precious heritage which Americans have, that a
man is presumed to be innocent until proved guilty. That has been
reiterated by every great jurist in American history, time and time
again, and certainly you would be the first to recognize that, that
in order for a man to have a fair trial, it requires all the rules and
regulations of a court hearing.
Mr. Nixon. You are absolutely correct.
Mr. White. Where a man is indicted for a crime — I am not speak-
ing about matters on which congressional inquiries are usually di-
rected about ; congressional comnrttees are admirably adapted to that.
The Chairman^ Just let the Chair say this: This is not a question
before the committee at the present time. Wliat our forefathers did,
why they did, and we have been trying to help them out ever since.
The question now is espionage, and I think that we ought to direct
our questions and direct your answers to the matter at hand. Other-
wise, we will get far afield into tennis and croquet and baseball, and
our forefathers, and everything else.
Mr. White. Do not forget volley ball.
The Chairman. All right.
I would like to ask you a couple of questions.
Mr. White. Mr. Chairman, I am at your service.
The Chairman. What position did you hold when Mr. Silvermastei-
came to you and told you about the intelligence report?
Mr. White. I was Director of Monetary Research at the Treasury.
The Chairman. You are Director of Monetary Research at the
Treasury?
Mr. White. That is right.
The Chairman. As I recall your testimony, you were very much sur-
prised that an investigation had been made, is that correct?
ivxr. VV kite, i was surprised that a question had been raised about
Mr. Silvermaster's loyalty.
The Chairman. Yes; and then I recall your saying that you asked
him whether or uot he was a Communist.
Mr. White. That is right.
The Chairman. Wliat was his answer?
Mr. White. Definitely not.
The Chairman. Definitely not. Then you decided that he was not
a Communist ; is that correct ?
896 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
»
Mr. White. AVell, that is putting it a little different from the way
I would put it. I said that I asked for some more of his background,
what were the charges, what were his answers.
The Chairman. But you asked him if he were a Communist.
Mr. White. That is right.
The Chairman. Do you think that if you asked that question of any
Comnuniist he or she would answer it ?
Mr. White. I would not know.
The Chairman. Don't you think that if you asked the question of
another employee of your Department who happened to be a card-
holding Communist, if you asked the question if he or she were a
Communist, they would undoubtedly say "No'' ?
Mr. Whiits. Probably, but that would not stop my asking.
The Chairman. Well, then, you went on to say that you looked over
the answer, the written answer, of Mr. Silvermaster in connection with
the charges that had been made.
Mr. White. Correct.
The Chairman. And Mr. Silvermaster gave you the impression —
Mr. Silvermaster said that he had seen the charges that had been made
against him; is that correct?
Mr. White. I am not sure. I said he must have seen them, because
in his- memorandum, which he gave to me, which was a copy of what,
I think he was submitting to some board or had submitted to a board,
there were on the top of each paragraph a sentence or a phrase or
sometimes several sentences, containing allegations or claims or indict-
ments, and then his answer followed, and I said I presumed he must
have had access to the charges.
The Chairman. Well, I think that is a vevy fair presumption. What
board was it that made that investigation ?
Mr. White. The investigation?
The Chairman. Of Mr. Silvermaster?
Mr. White. I do not know. You mean the board that I requested?
The Chairman. No; the board which made the investigation of
Mr. Silvermaster's loyalty.
Mr. White. I do not know. It was either the Army or the Navy
or the Civil Service. I am not sure which. I do not know.
The Chairman. And so, Mr. Silvermaster had on his answer, the
copy of which was given to you, certain allegations and then his an-
swers following.
Mr. White. Yes ; they were not in quotations, and there were state-
ments, and then there were several paragraphs, pretty long, giving
his own history and background, and a number of things.
The Chairman. So, after seeing that, seeing his answers and asking
him the question, "Are you a Communist?," you came to the conclusion
that he was not a Communist?
Mr. White. That was my feeling, yes; coupled with my many con-
versations with him on many topics over several years.
The Chairman. Yes. But, did you get in touch with the Army or
the Navy .or with the Civil Service to Hud out what their side of the
stoi-y was ?
Mr. White. No; that was not my function. The reason, I think,
that Mr. Silvermaster came to me, the reason I am sure is that he
knew — he must have known that Mr. Herbert Gaston was a member
of the board of inquiry — I do not remember how many members there
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 897
were on it — it was a Government board that was appointed at that
time to review loyalty cases; and he thought possibly I could inter-
cede on his behalf, which I was glad to do, as a friend when, after
having read his paper and knowing him as I did, I went to Mr. Gaston.
I will repeat what I said — anyone who knows Mr. Gaston, and I am
sure he knows many people
The Chairman, You said that before.
Mr. White. You wanted me to repeat it. Do you want me to
repeat it ?
The Chairman. I remember it.
Mr. White. You remember it?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. White. Fine.
The Chairman. But, you did not get in touch with the Army or
the Navy or the Civil Service to get their side of the question ?
Mr. Whiit:. Not to my recollection.
The Chairman. You just took his answers to the questions, and
you asked him. "Are you a Communist?" and then you took his type-
written copy, and then you concluded that that was a good risk, is
that correct ?
Mr. White. That was not my decision. Mr. Chairman. I did not
decide to jjut him back or not. I requested that this whole matter
concerning him be gone into thoroughly.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. White. To see that there would be no injustice done.
The Chairman. Exactly.
Mr. White. Yes.
The Chairman. You were in favor of going into the matter thor-
oughly ?
Mr. White. That is right.
The Chairman. So that justice could have been done?
Mr. White. That is right.
The Chairman. Didn't you think that if you thought it should
have been done thoroughly that you should have gotten in touch with
the Army Intelligence or Naval Intelligence to find out what they
had to say about this ?
Mr. White. It was natural for me to go to the Assistant Secre-
tary of the Treasury, who w^as the Treasury representative on that
board, wliom I knew well, and to ask him that if and when the case
came before them would he see that it was given a thorough investi-
gation, and that justice was done, and that the matter was not merely
passed over, and with the possible irreparable damage to an indi-
vidual.
The Chairman. Were there any other cases that you had like Mr.
Silvermaster's ?
Mr. White. I do not think so. I would have remembered.
The Chairman. Did you get in touch with Mr. Gaston in connec-
tion with anv other cases?
Mr. AViiiTE. What?
The Chairman. Did you get in toucli with Mr. Gaston in connec-
tion with any other cases?
Mr. White. I do not think so. I would have remembered, I think.
The Chairman. If another person had gotten in touch with you
80408 — 48- 26
898 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
and had been in the same predicament that Mr. Silvermaster was
in, would you ask him if he was a Communist, and then look at his
answers and go to Mr. Gaston, without going to Naval Intelligence ?
Mr. White. If he had been under my employ, I would have turned
this matter over to our very excellent Secret Service. This is not a
man in my employ, but this was a friend, and I did it as an act of
humanity.
The Chairman. Could it be possible that a friend of yours was a
member of the Communist Party and you did not know it?
Mr. White. I have many friends, thank heaven.
The Chairman. That is not the answer to my question.
Mr. White. How can I answer that, Mr. Congressman? How
do I know who is a Communist or not? I know many people and I
have many friends. I do not know.
The Chairman. Well, I am asking you whether it would be pos-
sible if any of your friends might be Communists,
Mr. Whiite. (a) There are Communists; (6) I have friends; {c)
those friends might be Communists. I mean, that is silly.
The Chairman. How do you feel about Mr. Silvermaster today in
view of the testimony that has been given before the FBI and Federal
grand jury ajid before this committee, and what you have read in the
newspapers? Do you think Mr. Silvermaster was ever a member of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. White. You cannot erase 7 or 8 years of friendship witli a
man that way unless I see evidence, unless the court declares he is,
and until they prove he is guilty. I believe he is innocent.
I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, this applause is not my fault.
The Chairman. That is all right.
What charges have been made by any witness before this commit-
tee that prompted you to come and request that you appear as a
witness ?
Mr. White. On Saturday a week ago Al Gregory, an acquaintance,
called me on the telephone and said that I had been accused of being
the leader of a spy ring. 1 read in the next Sunday's paper testimony
by a Miss Bentley and by — whether it was that same day or subse-
quently— Mr. Chambers of such charges, and naturally, I wanted to
appear before this committee to clear my name insofar as it is pos-
sible to do so.
The Chairman. You heard or read that you had been charged with
being a leader of a spy ring?
Mr. White. I heard that, and I think I read it, too, in the press.
The Chairman. Who charged you with being the leader of a spy
ring?
Mr. White. Either or both, a Miss Bentley and a Mr. Whittaker
Chambers.
The Chairman. Mr. Chief Investigator, what charges were made
against Mr. White ?
Mr. White. Other charges, if I might add.
The Chairman, Against Mr. White; what were they?
Mr. White. That I stated in my preliminary statement that I had
placed
The Chairman. By either Mr. Chambers or Miss Bentley.
CG^lilMUKlST ESPIOlSrAGE 899
Mr. White. That I had placed in key posts or positions men whom
I knew to be espionage agents for the purpose of furthering their
work. That charge was repeated in the papers.
Mr. Stripling. Do you want me to read it ?
The Chairman. Yes.
'■' Mr. Stripling. This is the testimony of July 31 of Elizabeth Bent-
ley. She was referring to the people in the Silvermaster group who
were in the Treasury. She was asked by Mr. Stripling :
Were there any other individuals in the Treasury Department who were work-
ing with your group?
Miss Bentlet. With the Silvermaster group? -
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Miss Bentley. Yes. Harry Dexter White.
Mr. Stripling. What was Mr. White's position?
Miss Bentley. I believe he was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury, is that
correct, or do you call him an Under Secretary, I am not sure.
Mr. Stripling. Assistant Secretary of the Treasury.
The Chairman. The witness says she believes. What was he. We want to
know.
Mr. Stripling. He was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury and head of
Monetary Research, as I know.
Mr. Rankin. Is he a Communist?
Miss Bentley. I do not knovv^ whether Mr. White was a card-carrying Commu-
nist or not.
Mr. Stripling. What was the extent of his cooperation with your group?
■ Miss Bentley He gave information to IMr. Silvermaster which was relayed
to me.
The Chairman. Did you ever give information to Mr. Silvermaster
concerning the work of your department?
Mr. White. We must have talked about the work in my department.
I would never give him any secret or confidential information.
The Chairman. Why not ?
Mr. White. I did not do it fo anybody. I did not do it to anybody
who was unauthorized. There were, of course, within the division
scores of people who worked on problems.
The Chairman. But you went to the extent of getting in touch with
Mr. Gaston to get his name cleared because he had been charged with
being a Communist, because he was a friend of yours.
Mr. White. Precisely. I will do a lot for my friends, good friends,
and that was the least any decent human being could do for a man
whom we thought was innocent.
The Chairman. Now, going back and recalling those days, did you
ever recall Mr. Silvermaster asking you for any information that
might be of a secret nature or such that you should not give it out?
Mr. AVhite. No, no; I never have. In those years we discussed a
good deal about Germany and'Hitler's activity, and the possibilities of
war, and then, after the war, the possibilities of success, those problems.
We discussed economic problems ; we ranged the field pretty well. I
do not remember his ever asking me for any confidential informa-
tion, because it would be none of his business.
The Chairman. If you were shown a photostatic copy of a Com-
munist dues-paying card or a Communist membership card with Mr.
Silvermaster's name on it, would you believe that Mr. Silvermastei"
was a Communist?
900 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. White. Well, it certainly would be strong presumptive evidence
that he was. I do not know whether those things are framed ; yes, I
should think it would be that. If that is evidence before the court, I
would accept it. The court is in a better position than I am.
The Chairman. How many of these other people whose names have
been mentioned here today by Mr. Stripling either worked under you
or with you or that you helped in some way or aiwther.
Mr. White. Well. I can remember some of the names, but I do not
remember all.
The Chairman. The names that you can recall.
Mr. White. Well, Frank Coe I have described.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. White. He came to the Treasury at the same time I did. Harold
Glasser, I employed some 10 or 12 years ago, and he came from another
Government department. Bill Taylor worked for me — who were some
of the others ? Where the checks are ?
Mr. Stripling. Blue checks.
Mr. White. Red checks would be more appropriate.
The Chairman. That is the best statement you have made.
Mr. White. I added it from your point of view.
The Chairman. I did not hear the latter part.
Mr. White. I will run down the list.
Mr. Stripling. Perhaps I should read the ones that I asked you
about.
Mr. White. Please do that.
Mr. Stripling. Just to refresh your memory. Solomon Adler.
Mr. White. He worked in the Division.
The Chairman. What was that name?
Mr. White. Solomon Adler.
Mr. Stripling. Norman Bursler.
Mr. White. He did not work for me.
,Mr. Stripling. Frank Coe, you have mentioned.
Mr. White. I have mentioned him.
Mr. Stripling. Lauchlin Currie.
Mr. White. Lauchlin Currie you know about that.
Mr. Stripling. Sonia Gold.
Mr. White. She worked for the Division for a while.
Mr. Stripling. William J. Gold.
Mr. White. No.
Mr. Stripling. Irving Kaplan.
Mr. White. I do not think so. The reason I hesitate there is that
we have a branch, a sort of subsidiary, that was called Foreign Ex-
change Control, in which there were several hundred employees. I
have a vague recollection that he might have worked for them for a
time. I am not sure. The records, I think, will show that. He did
not work in the Division of Monetary Research,
Mr, Stripling. George Silverman.
Mr. White. (leorge Silverman did not work for us, but when we
were establishing the Foreign Exchange, we were very short-handed
for excellent statisticians, and in my judgment George Silverman is
among the best economic statisticians. I asked his superior whether
he could not release him for a couple of months to get started — to
helj) us get started, and I think his superior did, and we got him over
there.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 901
Mr. Stripling. William H. Taylor.
Mr. White. He worked for us.
Mr. Stripling. William L. Ullmann.
Mr. White. He worked for us.
The Chairman. What was that last name ?
Mr. White. Ullmann.
Mr. Stripling. That is all. Victor Perlo.
Mr. White. Victor Perlo I explained.
The Chairman. Mr. White, of all the persons who have been men-
tioned at these hearings to date, 9 or 10 have worked in your Depart-
ment, and in addition to that, two others are friends of yours, and
one is a very close friend.
Now^, how do you account for that ?
Mr. White. That is one of those "when did you stop beating your
wife" questions.
The Chairman. Not exactly.
Mr. White. But let me answer. I do not know whether there were
9 or 10. There may have been.
The Chairman. Well, say 8 or 9.
Mr. White. It does not matter for our purposes where there were
7 or 11. In the first place, all of these men that worked for us are
what I would call class A and some class AA economists in the field in
which they were interested. We had working for us, or we have hired,
or I have hired, or my assistants have employed rather than hired,
probably over a hundred economists during the course of these years,
well over a hundred economists. At least one of these men was there
when I came, there were several of them who came just the way they
always come, through civil service, or through the Employment Bu-
reau, and their qualifications were suitable.
Ullmann, I employed, knowing him, myself. I would have been glad
to employ George Silverman, but he would not have worked for me.
We could not have paid him enough. I asked him. Several of them
were employed by assistant directors, recommended, and it would have
gotten my approval.
The Chairman. AYell, maybe I did not phrase my question correctly.
Mr. White. Would you mind rephrasing it ?
The Chairman. I will put the question in a different way.
Mr. White. Do, because I have not the slightest intention of dodg-
ing it.
Mr. Chairman. No. Don't you think it is strange that of the per-
sons, all the persons mentioned, either by Miss Bentley or by Whit-
taker Chambers, that of those persons mentioned, at least 8 or 9 of
them, possibly 10, worked under you, and 2 others are friends of yours ?
Mr. White. Well, it certainly is disconcerting, but I would not say
it is strange. We had probably the largest economic department;
those are economists, and most of them are, and they are economists,
most of them, in a special field in which the logical place for them to
go would be either one of two places, the Federal Reserve Board, and
the Treasury; and the Treasury at that time was expanding rapidly
because we were given responsibilities far in excess of anything we
had ; and we needed all the good people we could possibly get ; and I
have called up my colleagues that I have known in the profession, not
one, but a dozen of them, and I said, "Would you please send me the
best men you had, so that we could get them,"' and this got around,
902 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
I am sure, and anybody who was good, Wiho wanted a job, he would
come to the Treasury, and if he was good, and I think I am a pretty
good judge of the competence in that fiekli, he got the job — he or she
got the jobs. The "she's" were taken on hitei' when Secretary Morgen-
thau said that we ought to give more of the women a chance and let
the men do the work, and I thoroughly agreed*
The Chairman. All right, let's go on. Mf^::
Of these 10 people, did you hear that either the Army Intelligence
or the Naval Intelligence or the Civil Service had been investigating
their loyalty ? . ; . : ,
": Mr. White. No. 1 do not think so. i' I mentioned the case of
Glasser, I mentioned the case of Silvermastedv Those are the only
two, to my recollection. i m : 'nm:
The Chairman. Let usitake the case of Glasser.
Mr. White. Yes.
The Chairman. You learned from whom that
Mr. White. The FBI came to see me ?ibout him. I do not remem-
ber the year ; must have been close to 1940; ;;j , ^
Tlie Chairman. What was their interest in him ?
Mr. White. They wanted to know whether he was I imagine
what they were attempting to ascertain was whether he was a
Communist. . :\ .
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. White. And their questions were in that dii'ection, whether in
my judgment he had done anythinjr that could be regarded as disloyal
or anything of that kind. I said, no, that Glasser was and Glasser
is an extremely competent and able economist, one that I was very
proud to have in my service.
The Chairman. But, could he not still be a Communist? That is
a fair question. ? .
Mr. White. Certainly, it is a fair question, Mr. Chairman, and I
will give you a fair answer. I suppose any man who is above six
could be a Communist.
The Chairman. Even though he might be one of the best
economists?
Mr. White. You mean tji^tcira Communist could be a good
economist? , / ;, ,; ' - ■
The Chairman. That is correct.
Mr. White. I do not see that the two are mutually exclusive. It is
possible. I do not know. One of the economists that used to have
a good deal of prestige among economists
The Chairman. Never mind, we are talking about Mr. Glasser.
■ Mr. White. I was going to cite an instance which even probably
you know.
The Chairman. You do not have to cite an instance. You can
answer that very promptly yes or no, and the answer is very
naturally yes,
: Mr. White. What was your question ?
The Chairman. I am going to ask another question. When you
found that the FBI was inquiring about Mr. Glasser, did you get
in touch with the FBI and ask them their interest?
Mr. White. No ; they told me. I mean, they told me.
The Chairman. They told you? f .-, ■;..
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 903
Mr. White. There were a couple of men who came to see me ; there
may have been other such occasions ; there were a couple of FBI men
who came to see me, I tliink it was later. .
Tlie Chaikman. Lefs stick to Mr. Glasser.
Mr. White. x\11 right, let's. Now. what did you want to know?
The Chairman. And tliey told you that they were inquirmg about
Mr. Glasser because they had reason to believe that he was a member
of the Connnunist Part}'. ,
^Ir. White. I do not think they said that, no. They were merely
making an inquiry about whether or not he was. No, they did not,
to my knowledge, to my recollection, they did not say they hjad reason
to believe that he was a Communist. - . '•
"The Chairman. Were there any of these other people that tlje FBI
or the Naval Intelligence or the Army Intelligence or Civil Service got
in touch with you about?
Mr. Wriii-E. I do not remember any.
Tlie Chairman. iDid they ever get in touch with you about Mr.
Ullmann.
Mr. White. I do not think so. I doubt it very much. , ' ,,
The Chairman. Did the}' ever get in touch with. you about -tlie
Golds?
Mr. White. I do not think so.
The Chairman. You are certain that no intelligence agency ever
got in touch with you about any other persons ?
Mr. White. I am not certain, Mr. Chairman. I was running a big
division ; I was a very busy man. This is over a period of 10 years.
I must have seen anywhere from 10 to 30 conferences of persons in
the course of a day. I could not be expected to remember, except
unusual things, on such routine matters.
Tlie Chairman. Do you still have a copy of the report that Mr.
Silvermaster gave to you?
Mr. White. I do not think so. I think I gave it back to him.
The Chairman. You gave it back to him?
Mr. White. I think so.
The Chairman. Right at that same time ?
Mr. White. I am not sure; I do not remember. I read it, and I
imagine I gave it back to him.
The Chairman. I see. Well, will you look in j^our files and ascer-
tain whether or not you have such a copy ?
Mr. White. I will be glad to produce such of the files as I have.
The Chairman. If you do have, will you send it to the committee ?
Mr. White. If I do have it, I will be glad to send it to the com-
mittee. It will be the fall before I will have access to my files.
The Chairman, The fall will be plenty of time.
]Mr. McDowell. Dr. White, I am almost ashamed to say that up
until Miss Bentley mentioned your name I had never heard of you.
Mr. White, Well, it is nothing to be ashamed of. May I ask your
name ?
Mr. McDowell. McDowell.
Mr. White. I did not mean to be facetious. I heard your name,
but I just did not connect the face with the name.
Mr. McDowell. I understand that. You testified, Dr. Wliite, that •
you read the charge that was made against you in a country newspaper.
Have you read the record — have you had the testimony ?
904 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. White. No ; I have not. I have read the New York Times ; I
did, get the Sunday Times, where I am, and I read that thoroughly.
I did read — I was in New York for a couple of days and I read several
of the newspapers, and I read the papers pretty thoroughly while I
was here.
Mr. McDowell. But you have not read
Mr. White. No.
Mr. McDowell. The transcfife&d copy ?
Mr. White. No ; I have not.
Mr. McDowell. In making myself acquainted with you, Dr. White,
I have been told that you were the author of the famous Morgenthau
plan. I presume that is true ; is it ?
Mr. White. Did you also hear I was the author of the famous White
plan, by chance ?
Mr. McDowell. Yes.
Mr. White. You did. Apparently you did hear of me. No; I
would not quite say that. I would say that I participated in a major
way in the formulation of a memorandum which was sent to — which
was given to the President, I suppose, to the proper authorities, and
might I comment on that ?
Mr. McDowell. Well, no.
Mr. White. Or would you rather I would not?
Mr. McDowell. I would rather you would not. It is immaterial.
Mr. White. What is innnaterial?
Mr. McDowell. I would like to ask you
Mr. White. I thought you asked a question. You would not ask
immaterial questions.
Mr. McDowell. Sometimes I do.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Chairman, I suggest you instruct the witness that
it is obvious that he is a great w^it, that he is a great entertainer, and
would undoubtedly be a great entertainer socially, but I would ask
you to instruct the witness to answer the questions. He is well able to
take care of himself.
The Chairman. Mr. White, please be responsive to the questions;
leave out the side remarks, and I would like to say this to other people
in the room. You are the guests of the committee. We are conduct-
ing a public hearing ; we have got very important questions to ask, and
we are attempting to get the answers. The Chair would appreciate it
if you w^ould not applaud. Proceed, Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDowell. Dr. White, do you know Charles Kramer ?
Mr. White. I know him, yes; not too well, but I know him.
Mr. McDowell. You have talked to him ?
Mr. White. Yes ; he has been at the office a few times. I think he
was once down at my home ; I am not sure.
Mr. McDowell. He has been a guest in your home, you think ?
Mr. White. He was a guest once there when there was a meeting in
which we had — if you are interested in the subject, I will tell you;
but I think he was there ; however, I am not positive.
Mr. McDowell. You have testified that you knew Mr. Ullmann.
Mr. WiirrE. Mr. Who, sir?
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Ullmann.
Mr. White. Ullmann, yes ; I did.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 905
Mr. McDowell. And that you knew he was a very good photog-
rapher. As a matter of fact, if I recall, you testified that he took a
picture of your children ; it was a very good picture.
Mr, White. That is correct.
Mr. McDowell. Do you know. Dr. White, that Mr. Ullmann, sitting
where you are now, was asked by me if he knew anything at all about
the photographic arts, or had any skill, and he declined to answer on the
grounds that his answer might incriminate himself?
Mr. White. I did not know that.
Mr. McDowell. Don't you think that is a strange thing for him to
say ?
Mr. White. I can only repeat, Mr. Congressman, what I said before
about the attitude of witnesses.
Mr. McDowell. I would like to refer, Mr. Chairman, back to an-
other question that I asked Mr. Ullmann. and which was taken as being
entirely facetious by those in the chamber at the time. I asked Ullmann
if he knew how to play tennis. He declined to answer on the grounds
that his answer might incriminate him.
Mr. White. I noticed that.
Mr. McDowell. My question was directed because Miss Bentley
testified that this man told her he was a very expert tennis player.
Mr. White. I think he is an excellent player. I have played with
him myself. I think he used to be a tennis instructor.
Mr. McDowell. I see. Well, now, let us get back into the Silver-
master cellar. I think everyone in Washington has been in there but
me. You would know photographic equipment when you saw it, of
course. Dr. White ?
Mr. White. I think so.
Mr, McDowell. And you did not notice anything down there at all ?
Mr. White. I did not. but the fact that I did not notice, does not
mean that it was not there, because I was just looking at — it was a
pretty cluttered up cellar, as I remember. We had to chase the balls.
Mr, McDowell. Well, I have no further questions, Dr. White, but
in view of the very noble statements you have made here about the
rights of humans, star-chamber proceedings, and so forth, all of which
I agree with, and I am sure the other members do, too, but you have
testified that you knew Mr. Perlo, Mr. Ullman, Mr. Silverman, and
Mr. Silvermaster and Mr. Kramer.
Mr. White. That is right, sir.
Mr, McDowell, In the case of one or two of them, you have testi-
fied that they were friends, good friends, and you are willing to defend
them, and you have proven that you would defend them.
Mr. White. That is right, sir.
Mr, McDowell, In case we proved that these men are all part of an
espionage ring, j'our place in history is going to be changed consider-
ably, would you not think ?
Mr, White, I certainly think that I would not profit by having as
close friends people who have been of disservice to their Government.
Mr, McDowell. That is all, Mr. Chairman. '
The Chairman, Mr, Hebert.
Mr. Hebert. No questions.
The CiiAiRMAx, Mr, Stripling.
906 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman, excei)t
I would like to read into the record the testimony of Mr. Chambers,
in view of the fact that the witness has stated that he has not seen a
copy of the record ; is that correct ?
Mr. White. I have not, sir.
Mr. Stripling. And I would like to read it into the record, and ask
him whether or not it is true or not true.
The Chairman. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Stripling. This testimony was given on August 3 by Whittaker
Chambers.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chambers, Miss Bentley testified last Saturday and she
named Harry Dexter White as a person who worked with the espionage group.
Did you know Harry Dexter White?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Stripling. Is Harry Dexter White a Communist? Was he a Commuiaist,
to your knowledge?
Mr. Chambers. I can't say positively that he was a registered member of the
Communist Party, but he certainly was a fellow traveler so far within the fold
that his not being a Communist would be a mistake on both sides.
Mr. Stripling. Did you go to Harry Dexter White when you left the Com-
munist Party and ask him also to leave the party?
Mr. Chambers. I did.
Mr. Stripling. You considered him to be a Communist Party member, then?
Mr. Chambers. Well, I accepted an easy phrasing. I didn't ask- him to leave
the Communist Party, but to break away from the Communist movement.
Mr. Stripling. What did he tell you?
Mr. Chambers. He left me apparently in a very agitated frame of mind, and
I thought I had succeeded. Apparently I did not.
Mr. White, That is much of what I read. I think that I read sub-
stantially what was there.
Mr. Stripling. You had that testimony in mind when you made your
statement ?
Mr. White. Yes.
The Chairman. Are there any more questions ?
Mr. Stripling. I have no further questions.
The Chairman. Thank you very much for your presence, Mr. White.
Mr. White. Thank you.
The Chairman. The witnesses this afternoon will be Donald Hiss,
Dr. and Mrs. Gold, and Mr. Frank Coe. We will recess until 2: 15.
(Whereupon, at 1 : 25 p. m., the committee recessed until 2 : 15 p. m,
this day.)
afternoon session
The Chairman. The meeting will come to order.
The first witness, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Bel a Gold.
The Chairman. Mr. Gold, will you stand and raise your right
hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the trutli, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you Godr
Mr. Gold. I do.
TESTIMONY OF BELA GOLD
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Gold, will you please state your full name, and
present address.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 907
Mr. Gold. My name is Bela Gold. My address is 619 Southcrest
Drive, Pittsburgh.
The Chairman. May I interrupt? The record will show that the
subcommittee is sitting, consisting of Mr. McDowell, Mr. Hebert, and
Mr. Thomas.
iNIr. Stripling. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Gold. I have here a statement about my personal background
which may expedite the hearing if you care to hear it. It is a short
one.
Mr. McDow^ELL. Have you qualified the witness?
Mr. Stripling. Sufficiently. I suggest he read his statement at this
time.
Mr. McDowell. Go ahead.
Mr. Gold. The following is a factual statement about my personal
background, training, and Washington work experience.
early background and training
I was born in Hungary in 1915, came to the United States at the
age of 5, and have not been abroad since. After attending the New
York City public schools, I studied engineering at New York Uni-
versity, receiving a B. S. in mechanical engineering in 19-34, worked
for a year as a research assistant on a study financed by the Rocke-
feller Foundation, and then did graduate work in economics at Co-
lumbia University from 1935 to 1937, holding a university fellow-
ship during the latter half of this period. The following year was
spent in field research on a fellowship awarded by the Social Science
Research Council.
Mr. McDowell. Will the witness suspend for a moment. The rec-
ord will show that Mr, Nixon is present.
Mr. Gold, From 1938 to 1939, 1 was engaged in economic and man-
agement research for one of the central research agencies of the life-
insurance industry, working primarily on problems of distribution.
, WASHINGTON WORK EXPERIENCE
My first position in the Federal service involved helping to organize
a division in the Bureau of Agricultural Economics for the purpose
of conducting field studies of the problems confronting the agricul-
tural programs in order to help increase the effectiveness of such
operations. I remained w^itli this Division of Program Surveys as
assistant head until mid-1943.
Partly because I was growing restive under heavy administrative
burdens and partly because I was eager to resume direct work in my
field of specialized training — economics — I agreed in June 1943 to
being borrowed by the Senate Subcommittee on War Mobilization in
order to conduct a study of wartime food-management problems. It
is my understanding that I was invited partly because my work had
entailed appraising rather than defending agricultural program opera-
tions and, partly, because I had helped to organize some singularly
constructive hearings during the preceding fall on the possibilities of
making important savings in agricultural manpower during the war
through the application to major types of farm work of the motion-
908 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
economy principles which had been developed and used with great
profit in industry. My agreement with the committee staff provided
for my working independently — even to the point of retaining my
office in the Department of Agriculture building — and also for my
concentrating not on criticism of past shortcomings but rather on
high-lighting the problems that lay ahead and on assessing the alter-
native organizational and policy means of dealing with them.
This proved to be one of those job changes, experienced at one time
or another by most men, in which the promises proved more attractive
than the realities. In this case, the difficulties were due in considerable
measure to my own lack of experience in congressional committee work
and even to a certain reluctance, or perhaps inability, to adapt myself
to its demands. At any rate, when the hearings which I had organ-
ized were not published and when no action was taken on my own
report, it seemed appropriate to seek another position.
Having kept in touch with developments in the various agencies
dealing with food programs, I knew that the recently organized For-
eign Economic Administration was still seeking additional personnel.
Accordingly, without any of the usual folderol, I asked the Assistant
Administrator in charge of the Office of Economic Programs, whom
I had met in connection with my committee work, if he had any open-
ings in which I might be interested. After the usual preliminaries, I
was hired in January 1944 as a special assistant dealing almost ex-
clusively with organization, budget, and other administrative matters.
My next major assignment involved directing the preparation of a
report for release to the public which would summarize the functions,
problems, and achievements of the Foreign Economic Administration.
Thereafter, for the remainder of my service in the Federal Govern-
ment, my duties were concerned almost exclusively with postwar com-
modity problems, with the greater part of my time being devoted to
work on the Draft International Commodity Convention which was
later incorporated into the International Trade Charter. When the
Foreign Economic Administration was disbanded in the fall of 1945,
I was transferred along with a large section of FEA into the Depart-
ment of Commerce.
I left the Federal Government in the spring of 1946, after 6i/^ years
of progressively more responsible service. That service is a source
of considerable personal satisfaction to me. And it does not seem
unreasonable to call attention to the fact that, to the best of my knowl-
edge, there was never during that long stretch of years the slightest,
reflection on my competence, on my devotion to my duties, or on my
loyalty to the' Government. Nor do I recognize any even remotely
persuasive basis for casting such aspersions now.
PREPARATION OF BOOK ON AGRICULTURAL POLICIES
Early in 1944, some ^ or 3 months after I left the Senate subcom-
mittee, I was asked by its staff director if I would care to bring my
food report up to date and expand it into a monograph for publication
by the committee. When I agreed, the FEA was formally requested to
free some of my time for that purpose. In the course of checking
more recent development in the various sectors of agricultural opera-
tions, I called, among others, on Dr. N. G. Silvermaster, then Director
of the Farm Labor Division of the Farm Security Administration.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 909
I had last seen Dr. Silvermaster in the fall of of 1942, when he had been
included, at the suggestion of Dr. Howard R. Tolley, Chief of the
Bureau of Agricultural Economics, in the panel of witnesses invited
to the hearings on the application of motion-economy procedures to
farm work. Dr. Silvermaster was not only extremely helpful in
clarifying my understanding of newly emergent problems in his
particular field of specialization, farm labor, but agi'eed to read my
chapter on that subject upon completion. Later, as I learned that
he had for long taught economics at a west-coast college and also that
he was currently advising on the preparation of a doctoral thesis deal-
ing with agricultural problems, I prevailed upon him to read other
chapters of my own report and to advise on shaping it into a suitable
doctoral dissertation.
I saw Dr. Silvermaster some 10 or 12 times during the year that I
worked on the thesis, each time for the sole purpose of reviewing in
detail another completed chapter of my manuscript. The resulting
report was submitted to an examining board at Columbia University
in May 1945, and was approved subject to some suggested minor modi-
fications. In the course of preparing subsequent drafts of the manu-
script before committing it to print, I have, of course, consulted vari-
ous other economists and agricultural specialists. But, although I
have not seen Dr. Silvermaster for more than 3 years now, I remain
grateful for his generous help at that early stage in the undertaking.
In all fairness to him, especially in view of the grave charges which
have been so widely publicized, I want to emphasize under oath that
he never made any suggestion or expressed any view to me that any
reasonably responsible person could possibly consider subversive or
disloyal. In all of my relations with him, he impressed me as a man
of great capacity, of scholarly interests, of reserve, and of sincere
generosity.
CONCLUDING REMARKS
In concluding, I should like to emphasize that the following state-
ments are made under oath :
I have never seen the witness who has apparently put forward the
completely unfounded charges reported by the newspapers last week.
I am not and have never been a member of the Communist Party
or of any organizations associated w4th it,
I deny without qualification that I have ever disclosed any Govern-
ment documents or their contents to any unauthorized individuals.
And I am determined to do w^hatever may be possible to clear my
name of these outrageous allegations. In this connection, I can only
regret no longer being a Government employee, for authoritative ma-
chinery exists not only to investigate civil servants accused of such
charges but to give those found innocent unequivocal clearance. It
is regrettable that those who are no longer in Govermnent service do
not have access to any institutional arrangement for determining and
publicizing innocence with an effectiveness comparable to that achieved
in broadcasting unfounded charges on a Nation-wide basis.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Gold, are you acquainted with Solomon Adler?
Mr. Gold. No.
Mr. Stripling. Are you acquainted with Norman Bursler?
Mr. Gold. No. I may have seen the man once, but I am not ac-
quainted with him.
910 COMMf iSriST ESPIONAGE
Mr. StriplitJg. Frank V. Coe'^ -.■^m^u Jj
Mr. Gold. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Mr. Coe well ?
Mr. Gold. Well, I worked for him for a year.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Laiichlin Currie ?
Mr. Gold. No. I met him once.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Edward J. Fitzgerald?
Mr. Gold. I may have met him twice or three times. His wife
worked for me — not for me, but on my staff.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Harold Glasser ?
Mr. Gold. No. I met him once.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Joseph B. Gregg ?
Mr. Gold. No.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Maurice Halperin ?
Mr. Gold. No.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Alger Hiss?
Mr. Gold. No.
Mr. Stripling. Charles Kramer?
Mr. G<^LD. I guess I have met him two or three times. He worked
on this committee on which I was a staff member.
Mr. Stripling. Irving Kaplan?
Mr. Gold. Yes. He was a fellow economic adviser in the Foreign
Economic Administration.
Mr. Stripling. Solomon A. Lischinsky?
Mr. Gold. I think I met him once back in '41.
Mr. Stripling. Harry Magdoff?
Mr. Gold. I met him once wheii he turned me down for a job.
Mr. Stripling. Eobert T. Miller?
Mr. Gold. I never heard of him.
Mr. Stripling. Willard Z. Park?
Mr. Gold. No.
Mr. Stripling. Victor Perlo?
Mr. Gold. I met Perlo twice, once in '43 when he turned me down
for a job, and once in '46 when we w^ere both members of the Govern-
ment committee.
Mr. Stripling. William W. Remington?
Mr. Gold. No.
Mr. Stripling. Allan R. Rosenberg?
Mr. Gold. I beg your pardon?
Mr. Stripling. Allan R. Rosenberg.
Mr. Gold. I don't know him. I knew he worked in the same agency
in which I worked and met him once or twice.
Mr. Stripling. Abraham George Silverman?
Mr. Gold. I met him twice, I think, in a car pool.
Mr. Stripling. Nathan Gregory Silvermaster?
Mr. Gold. Yes; as I have testified.
Mr. S tripling. William H. Taylor ?
Mr. Gold. I thinlv I met him once or twice, maybe.
Mr. Stripling. William L. Ullmann?
Mr. Gold. Yes; I met him at the Silvermaster home.
Mr. Stripling. Harry D. White?
Mr. Gold. Never met him.
Mr. Stripling. Donald Wheeler?
Mr. Gold. I don't think I have ever met him. /=
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 911
Mr. Stripling. Hoav many times M-eie you, if ever, at Mr. Silver-
master's home?
Mr. Gold. I would say, rou^rhly, 10 or 12 times. It is a book 15 or
16 chapters and we would go over one chapter at a time during each
of our visits.
Mr. Stripling. You never furnished any information to Mr. Silver-
master ?
Mr. Gold. Never.
Mr. Stripling. Which you obtained in your official capacity in the
Government?
Mr. Gold. Never.
Mr. Stripling. You are not now or never have been a member of
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Gold. Never.
Mr. Stripling. You don't know Elizabeth T. Bentley?
Mr. Gold. No.
Mr. Stripling. I have no further questions.
Mr. McDowell. Were you ever in the Silvermaster cellar. Dr. Gold ?
Mr. Gold. Yes; I was there once.
Mr. McDowell. Can you describe the interior?
Mr. Gold. No. It was an odd occasion. I had admired some but-
tons that Mrs. Silvermaster was wearing when I came into the house,
and it developed that Ullmann had made them. I was a little curious
as to how, and so he showed me he had a power machine in his basement.
Mr. McDowell. Any photographic ec][uipment down there?
Mr. Gold. No.
Mr. McDowell. You feel sure that you saw no photographic
equipment ?
Mr. Gold. I can't say that I made a search for it. It is just that
being in his cellar I didn't notice anything that I would now recollect
as being ])hotographic equipment or resembling it in any way.
Ml'. SicDowELL. Did you have ^ny knowledge by word or conver-
sation that there was any photographic equipment in the cellar?
Mr. Gold. In the cellar ; no. I just knew that Ullman had, of course,
taken pictures because they had pictures hung all over the house that
he had taken. Presumably, he had a camera. That is all.
Mr. McDowell. You knew Mv. Ullmann was skilled with a camera?
Mr. Gold. I gathered that from the pictures they had hanging in
the house.
jNIr. McDowell. Mv. Nixon, any questions?
Mr. Stripling. At that point. Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask
the witness a question. Did Mr. Ullmann ever give you a camera?
Mr. (told. No. I borrowed one from him once over a week end.
Mr. 'tripling. What kind was it?
Mr. Gold. I am afraid I can not tell you what kind. All I know
was it was too involved for me to handle. One with a rangefinder
in it.
Ml". Stripling. And you returned it to him?
Mr. C-OLD. Oh, yes. I tried it for 1 or 2 days, and by the time I got
evej'ything focused the picture was gone and final]}' gave it up.
Mr. Sti'Ipling. Tliat is all.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Hebert, any questions?
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Stripling, in exactly wliich connection is this
witness charged by Miss BentJey? He has made a general denial.
912 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
but I would like the charges to be read to him from the record, and
let him deny them.
Mr, Gold. The newpapermen in Pittsburgh asked what the charges
were and there was difficulty in running them down.
Mr. Stripling. She was testifying regarding the Silvermaster
group in the Treasury and it reads as follows :
Mr. Stripling. Anyone else?
Miss Bentley. William Gold.
Mr. Stripling. G-o-l-dV
Miss Bentley. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Where was he employed?
Miss Bentley. I believe it was FEA — I can't recall whether BEW or FEA, but
it was that same outfit.
Mr. Stripling. Was he a member of the Communist Party?
Miss Bentij:y. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Did he furnisli information to your group?
Miss Bentley. Yes ; he did.
Mr. Hebert. You heard those charges, Mr. Gold ?
Mr. Gold. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. You categorically deny them as being untrue?
Mr. Gold. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. That is all.
Mr, McDowell. Dr. Gold, have you ever used anv other name
than Gold ^
Mr. Gold. Xo, and never any other name than Bela either. The
William J. comes as an alias without foundation.
Mr. McDowell, Mr. Stripling, I believe the witness is here without
subpena at his own request.
Mr. Stripling. Yes ; he asked to be heard.
Mr. McDowell. When was the i equest made ?
Mr. Stripling. I believe Mr. Gold was the first person to ask to be
heard, I think it was the following day after her testimony.
Mr. McDowell. Thank you very much. Dr. Gold.
Mr. Gold. Thank you very much.
Mr, Stripling. Sonia Gold.
Mr. McDowell. Raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give this committee
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mrs. Gold. I do.
TESTIMONY OF SONIA GOLD
Mr. Stripling. Will you please state your full name and present
address.
Mrs. Gold. My name is Sonia Gold, and I live at 619 Southcrest
Drive in Pittsburgh.
Mr. Stripling. Where were you born?
Mrs. Gold. I was born in New York City.
Mr. Stripling. Are you the wife of William Gold?
Mrs. Gold. No ; I am the wife of Bela Gold.
Mr. Stripling. Would you give the committee a resume of your
educational background ?
Mrs. Gold. I have it written in a statement if you would like to
hear it.
Mr. Stripling. May I see it, please ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 913
Mr. McDowell. Have 3^011 qualified the witness ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr, McDowell. You may proceed to read your statement.
Mrs. Gold. I was born in New York City in 1917 and attended
the New York City public schools. I received a B. A. degree from
Hunter College in 1938. I did graduate work in economics at Ameri-
can University during the academic year 1939-40 and at Columbia
University during the academic year 1940-41. I have been matricu-
lated for my Ph. D. degree in economics at Columbia University.
My graduate studies in population and migration problems led to
my first job in the Federal service, as a research assistant for the
House Select Committee on Interstate Migration in June 1941. While
with this committee, I wrote a report, Transition in the Labor Market
After World War I. When the research program of this connnittee
was curtailed, I accepted a position as a labor-market analyst with
the Bureau of Employment Security in the spring of 1942. My
division was later transferred to the AYar Manpower Commission.
In the summer of 1943, wishing to broaden my work experience
and to add another specialization to my academic qualifications and
work experience, I applied to the Division of Monetary Research.
This Division was known throughout the Government by economists
as a model division and held in great regard for its high professional
standards. I was hired by the Division in the fall of 1943 and, except
for the period of my maternity leave, stayed with the Division until
August 1947, when I resigned to accompany my husband to Pittsburgh.
During my employment at the Division I was assigned to work on a
variety of technical monetary and financial problems: inflation, ex-
change rates, and so forth.
I always considered it, and still consider it, an honor and a privi-
lege to have worked in the Division of Monetary Research. This
feeling was general throughout the staff. My superiors impressed
me as brilliant, conscientious men, earnestly devoted to the best inter-
ests of our Government. At no time during my employment did
any member of the staff or any other individual suggest or request
that I reveal any Government information to any unauthorized indi-
viduals. And I have never done so.
I came to know Dr. and Mrs. Silvermaster during the period when
Dr. Silvermaster advised my husband on the book he was writing.
Mrs. Silvermaster was a gracious hostess during our few visits to
their household, and I knew her as an intelligent woman who could
also sew a fine seam, was an expert cook, and like any mother, was
absorbed in the education of her son. Dr. Silvermaster impressed
me as an able and likable person. There was never the faintest sug-
gestion of anything sinister about their personalities, their behavior,
or their household.
I. too, wish to declare under oath that I have never seen the witness
who has apparently put forward the completely unfounded charges
against us reported by the newspapers last week. I am not and
have never been a member of the Communist Party or of any organi-
zations associated with it. I deny without qualification that I have
ever disclosed any Government information to any unauthorized
individual. I also want to join my husband in stating that we
are determined to do whatever may be possible to clear our names
80408 — 48 27
914 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
of these allegations, and that we perforce must look to the Govern-
ment to j)rovide some authoritative means of clearing those former
civil servants over whose names a shadow has unjustifiably been
cast.
Mr. Stripling. Mrs. Gold, do you know Solomon Adler?
Mrs. Gold. Yes. He worked in the Division of Monetary Re-
search.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Norman Bursler?
Mr. Gold. I know the name. I have never met him.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Frank V. Coe ?
Mrs. Gold. Yes. I worked for him.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Lauchlin Currie ?
Mrs. Gold. I have never met him.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Irving Kaplan ?
Mrs. Gold. I met him during the brief period when he worked in
the Division.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Victor Perlo ?
Mrs. Gold. I met him at the Division.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Charles Kramer ?
Mrs. Gold. I have never met him.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know George Silverman ?
Mrs. Gold. I met him once or twice in a car pool.
Mr. Stripling. Met him where ?
Mrs. Gold. In a car pool.
Mr. SjRiPLiNG. Do you know William L. Ullmann?
Mrs. Gold. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. How well do you know Mr. Ullmann?
Mrs. Gold. I don't know hini well at all. He was present in the
Silvermaster house a few times when we were there, and I, of course,
knew him in the Division, but never worked with him.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Harry D, White ?
Mrs. Gold. I worked with ISIr. White.
Mr. Stripling. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Mundt, have you any questions ?
Mr. MuNDT. No questions.
Mr. McDowkll. Mr. Nixon?
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Stripling, for my own information, will you please
clear present confusion over the names here of William Gold and
Bela Gold? As I understand it, ISIiss Bentley in her testimony used
the name William Gold. Is that correct ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Did she use the name Bela Gold?
Mr. Stripling. No; she did not. I recei^ned a telegram from Dr.
and Mrs. Gold and they signed it Bela Gold ; but I believe you made
some reference to the fact that you were probably the William Gold
referred to.
Mrs. Gold. The newspapers listed my name as Sonia Gold at the
Treasury, and I know I was the only Sonia Gold at the Treasury, so
we thought that my husband's name had been reported wrongly by
the newspaper? when not understood here, or something.
Mr. Nixon. What does the testimony show in that regard ?
Mr. Stripling. William Gold.
Mr. Nixon. No reference in the testimony to Bela Gold?
Mr. Stripling. That is right.
' COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 915
Mr. Nixon. That is all.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Hebert?
INIr. Hebert. No questions,
Mr. McDowell. Were you in the basement of the Silvermaster
home, Mrs. Gold?
Mrs. Gold. No ; I wasn't.
Mr, McDowell. Never was there ?
Mrs. Gold. No.
Mr. IMcDowELL. You are here at your own request?
Mrs. Gold, Yes ; I am.
Mr. McDowell, When was your request made ?
Mrs. Gold. I think we sent our telegram as soon as we read the-
newspapers.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Stripling, have you anything further?
Mr. Stripling. No further questions.
Mr. McDowell. The witness is excused. Call the next witness.
Mr. Stripling. Frank Coe.
Mr. McDowell. Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear
that the testimony you are about to give this committee will be the
truth, tlie whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Coe. I do.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Coe, do you have counsel ?
Mr. Coe. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. McDowell. Do you have counsel ?
Mr. Coe. Yes ; my counsel is with me .
Mr. McDowell. Will counsel identify himself ?
Mr. RoGGE. My name is O. John Rogge. My office is 401 Broadway,
New York City, and 1700 Eye Street NW., Washington, D. C.
TESTIMONY OF FRANK COE, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
0, JOHN ROGGE
Mr. CoE. Mr. Chairman, I have a statement I would appreciate
giving if the committee will allow me.
Mr. Stripling. Just a moment, Mr. Coe. The committee will be
glad to receive your statement, but we would like first to get you
identified on the record.
Will you please state your full name and present address ?
Mr. CoE, My full name is Virginius Frank Coe, but for a number
of years I have not used the first name, My address is 1918 North
Roosevelt Street, Arlington, Va.
Mr. Stripling. When ancl where were you born, Mr. Coe ?
Mr. CoE, I was born in Richmond, Va,, January 5, 1907.
Mr. Stripling. Were 3^011 ever employed in the Federal Gov-
ernment ?
Mr. CoE. Yes, sir ; I was, several times.
Mr. Stripling. Is that covered in your statement ?
Mr. CoE. No ; it is not.
Mr. Stripling. Would you outline to the committee your Govern-
ment service ?
Mr. CoE. I will be glad to. I was first employed in the Federal
Government as a temporary consultant in the Treasury in 1934 for
several months. Although I was offered employment then and sub-
sequently in the Federal Government, I left it at that time and did
916 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
not return permanently until 1939 mainly for the reason that at that
time I did not like the conditions of work.
In 1936 I was also a consultant for a brief time in the Treasury and
again in 1939. Toward the end of 1939 I was appointed financial
adviser to the Federal Security Administrator. I served in that
position until the middle of 1940, when I accepted an assignment to
form a fiscal staff in the National Defense Council or to help form such
a staff.
After several months there I was offered the position of Assistant
Director of the Division of Monetary Research in the Treasury. That
would have been in the fall or late fall of 1940.
All of these dates are approximate. I served in the Treasury until
the end of 1941. In the middle of that period of service I was sent
to London and became a special assistant to the United States Ambas-
sador in London, Winant.
I returned to the Treasury and after several months left it. Be-
ginning in 1942 and through 1942, 1943, 1944, I served on the staff of
the Board of Economic Warfare and its successor agencies, serving as
assistant to the Executive Director of the Board and later as Assist-
ant Administrator of the Foreign Economic Administration, which
was formed by an amalgamation of several agencies.
In the beginning, I believe it was, of 1945 I was offered a position
as Director of the Division of Monetary Research in the Treasury
Department, in which position I served until I left the Federal Gov-
ernment in June 1946.
At that time I became secretary of the International Monetary
Fund, which position I still hold.
Mr. Stripling. You have a statement, Mr. Coe ?
Mr. CoE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that he read his statement
at this point if it is agreeable.
Mr. MuNDT. I think he should be permitted to read his statement.
Mr. CoE. On August 5 I telegraphed your chairman asking to ap-
pear before the committee and testify under oath. I wish to say that
the allegation which Miss Bentley apparently made to this commit-
tee about my being a member of a Comnmnist espionage group is
entirely false. I do not know Miss Bentley, and to the best of my
knowledge I have never seen or talked with her. I have never been a
member of such a group as she has described. I have never been a
member of the Communist Party. I have not followed the line of
that party nor, for that matter, the line of any political party or group.
I have never given official information to any person known to me to be
a member of the Communist Party or an agent of the Soviet Union.
To the best of my knowledge I have never given official information to
any unauthorized person.
One of the members of this committee has been reported as saying
that these hearings would leave the decision to public opinion. If
public opinion is to decide, surely the committee ought to hear wit-
nesses on behalf of the accused. Such witnesses should be heard and
cross-examined, and Miss Bentley should likewise be cross-examined.
The public would not find such testimony as exciting as the original
accusation, but at least all the facts would be available.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 917
I understand that this committee has previously decided against
using such procedures on the ground that, though they may be in-
cumbent on a court, they are not desirable for a legislative committee.
It seems to me, however, that this committee does in fact function
as a criminal court. Before this connnittee there are accusers and
accused, just as in a court. The accused are punished. The grave
and sensational charges which are made here are given wide pub-
licity, and that is a cruel punishment. It hurts the accused, his
family, and his friends and associates.
The peculiarity of this court is that all who are accused before
it are punished — the innocent and the guilty alike. Under the pres-
ent methods of the committee, that resuh is inevitable. As the com-
mittee knows, these views are held by many people. I hope they will
be given consideration.
I wish to thank the committee for allowing me to make this state-
ment.
I am now prepared to answer any questions.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Coe, do you know John Abt ?
Mr. CoE. John Abt was at the University of Chicago when I was a
student there. I believe I met him at that time. I may have met
him in Washington, but I do not believe so,
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Solomon Adler ?
Mr. CoE. Yes; I do. I met him at the Brookings Institution in
1933 or 1934. He worked wnth me in the Treasury and I have seen
him from time to time.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Norman Bursler?
Mr. CoE. I may have met Norman Bursler when he did some work
in the Justice Department, but I cannot recall.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Lauchlin Currie ?
Mr. CoE. Yes; I have known Lauchlin Currie. He and I were
members of the same staff in the Treasury Department in 1933. I
worked under him and I have seen him from time to time.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Edward J. Fitzserald ?
Mr, CoE. I know Edward J. Fitzgerald. He worked on a staff
which I supervised. I have seen little of him.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Harold Glasser ?
Mr. CoE. Yes. Harold Glasser was at the University of Chicago
at the same time as I and I knew him in the Treasury Department.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Sonia Gold ?
Mr. CoE. Sonia Gold worked in the Division of Monetary Research.
She was employed there when I came.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Bela Gold ?
Mr. CoE. Bela Gold w^as employed in an office which I supervised
at the Foreign Economic Administration.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Jacob N. Golos ?
Mr. CoE. No.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know^ Joseph B. Gregg?
Mr. CoE. No ; to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Michael Greenberg?
Mr. CoE. Michael Greenberg was on the pay roll of the Board of
Economic Warfare and I knew him at that time.
Mr. Stripling. How well did you know him ?
918 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. CoE. Not very well. He was assigned from an office which I
supervised to work with Mr. Ciirrie. I saw little of him and after a
time that arrangement was discontinued.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Maurice Halperin ?
Mr. CoE. I do not believe so.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Alger Hiss ?
Mr. CoE. I have met Alger Hiss but know him only slightly.
Mr. Stripling. How many times have you met him ?
Mr. CoE. I have never met him except to bump into him in some
other company I should say two, three, not more than four or five
times.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Julius J. Joseph?
Mr. CoE. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Charles Kramer?
Mr. CoE. Yes, I have met him. He called on me in the Treasury in
1945 one or tAvice in connection with some investigation, but I don't
know him otherwise.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Irving Kaplan ?
Mr. CoE. Irving Kaplan I knew first in 1939, I believe. He was as-
signed by another agency to make a study of the wage records of
the Federal Security Agency. I saw him from time to time and later
in 1944, I believe it was, he was employed in the Foreign Economic
Administration.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Duncan C. Lee ?
Mr. CoE. To the best of my knowledge, I have never met him.
Mr. Stripling. Do you loiow Solomon A. Lischinsky ?
Mr. CoE. I met Solomon Lischinsky once or twice I believe at the
time UNERA was winding up. He came to the Foreign Economic
Administration or the Treasury Department for that employment.
Otherwise I don't know him.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Harry Magdoff ?
Mr. CoE. I have met Harry Magdoff once or twice only.
Mr. Stripling. Robert Miller, III ?
Mr. CoE. Robert Miller is a parent at the school where my children
go and I have met him there.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Willard Z. Park ?
Mr. CoE. To the best of my knowledge, no.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Victor Perlo ?
Mr. CoE. Yes ; I knew Victor Perlo slightly as an economist in the
Government and in 1945, I believe it would have been, he was em*
ployed in the Division of Monetary Research when I directed it.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Mildred Price ?
Mr. CoE. To the best of my knowledge, I have never met her.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know William W. Remington?
Mr. CoE. I don't believe I ever met him.
Mr. Stripling. Allan Rosenberg?
Mr. CoE. Allan Rosenberg was an attorney in the Foreign Economic
Administration — in the Board of Economic Warfare and held other
positions in the Foreign Economic Administration, and I knew him
there.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Abraham G. Silverman, George
Silverman ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 919
Mr. CoE. Yes; I first met Silverman in 1943, 1 believe, at the Brook-
ings Institution, knew him subsequently in Washington, and knew
him socially.
Mr. Stript>ing. Do you know Nathan Gregory Silvermaster?
Mr. CoE. Yes ; I knew Nathan Gregory Silvermaster first, I think,
in 1939. I believe I met him through Mr. Ullmann, who was at the
Treasury when I was there. At that time, in 1939 and 1940 we knew
each other socially and I have seen him from time to time since.
Mr. SriRiPLiNG. Do you know William H. Taylor ?
Mr. CoE. William H. Taylor was employed in the Division of Mone-
tary Research at two times when I was there. He is presently a mem-
ber of the International Monetary Fund.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Helen B. Tenney?
Mr. CoE. I don't believe I ever met her.
Mr. Stripling. William L. Ullmann?
Mr. CoE. William L. Ullmann was employed in the Treasury when
I was there in 1939. I saw him then.
Mr. Stripling. You were the supervisor, were you not?
Mr. CoE. I beg your pardon ?
Mr. Stripling. Were you his supervisor?
Mr. CoE. I may have been his supervisor. Not at that time, no,
sir.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever his supervisor ?
Mr. CoE. In 1945 I was his supervisor because I directed the divi-
sion. In 1941 1 was an assistant director of the division and certainly
to some extent was his supervisor.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Donald N. Wheeler ?
Mr. CoE. Donald N. Wheeler, I believe, was at the Treasury in '39,
'40, or '41 for a brief time and I saw something of him then.
]\fr. Stripling. And you know Dr. Harry D. White?
Mr. CoE. Yes. I entered the Government at the same time and
worked with him at various other times.
Mr. Stripling. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. CoE. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I may say something about the
question of knowing in the Government. A long list of names has
been read to me, as it has been before, and I have previously testified
under oath, waived immunity, and testified under oath concerning
these things.
Mr. Stripling. "^Yliere was that, Mr. Coe?
Mr. CoE. That was before a grand jury. I would like to say first
that any minor discrepancies in my statement on various occasions are
unintentional. I am speaking now as to my best recollection. I can-
not recall details about persons or dates about jjersons.
Mr. MuNDT. I take it that wouldn't hold for your printed statement?
Mr. CoE. No, sir. I thought about that quite carefully. The second
point I want to say especially, in view of the allegation that these
people comprised a group, is that so far as I can see these were never
a group in any shape or form. They never acted as a group. As the
testimony before you shows, some knew each other and some did not.
The nearest they ever came to being a group, to my knowledge, was
in the playing of volley ball. They used to meet, or a number of these
jDeople used to go out Sundays and play volley ball. I personally
920 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
didn't do it because I didn't get up that early. On the one or two occa-
sions I did go out, I saw some and not others, I could, if it were of any
relevance
Mr. Stripling. Just a moment, Mr. Coe. I would like to ask you :
Are you thoroughly familiar in detail with the lives of these people?
Can you testify as to whether or not they are a group ?
Mr. CoE. I am testifying as to my knowledge and experience of them.
Mr. Stripling. How complete is your knowledge and experience of
them?
Mr. Coe. I am willing to go into that with regard to any one of
them. I am saying first, especially since I have been alleged
Mr. Stripling. Just a moment. How many times have you been to
the home of Nathan Gregory Silvermaster ?
Mr. CoE. In 1939 or '40, 1 suppose I was there 10 or 12 times.
Mr. Stripling. How many times was he at your home?
Mr. CoE. Several times.
Mr. Stripling. And how many times were you at the home of John
Abt?
Mr. CoE. Never.
Mr. Stripling. Never there ?
Mr. CoE. No.
Mr. Stripling. Was he ever at your home ?
Mr. CoE. No.
Mr. Stripling. Wliere did you meet him ?
Mr. CoE. At the University of Chicago.
Mr. Stripling. How many times?
Mr. Coe. That was twenty-some-odd years ago. I should think
Mr. Stripling. You are not too familiar with his habits, then, are
you?
Mr. Coe. No, sir; I may say I am talking particularly •
Mr. Stripling. To continue, Solomon Adler — do you know him?
Mr. CoE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. How many times have you seen him?
Mr. Coe. I must have seen him a hundred times.
Mr. Stripling. At your home?
Mr. Coe. Sometimes.
Mr. Stripling. Have you been to his home?
Mr. CoE. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. How about Norman Bursler ?
Mr. CoE. I have seen almost nothing of him.
Mr. Stripling. You are not familiar with him. You couldn't speak
for Mr. Bursler whether he comprised a group or not ?
Mr. CoE. I can speak to this effect. This is the effect I am speaking
to : So far as I can say from my acquaintance with these people
Mr. Stripling. Now, these people
Mr. Rogge. I object to this interruption.
Mr. Coe. As far as I can see, these people did not comprise a group.
Mr. MuNDT. Just a moment.
Mr. Stripling. I want to find out, Mr. Chairman
Mr. MuNDT. You have indicated of your own volition that you knew
a great deal about how these people acted, where they went, where
they played, where they gathered together. I think counsel is per-
fectly within his rights to interrogate you specifically about them.
You brought the matter up. Go ahead, Mr. Stripling.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 921
Ml". Stripling. Laiiclilin D. Ciirrie?
Mr. CoE. I have seen him in work capacity and socially.
Mr. Stripling. How many times socially and durino- what period?
Mr. CoE. I saw most of Lauchlin Currie in the period 1939 throngh
1947. I would see him for lunch from time to time and from time to
time I would go to his house. At times he would come to mine.
Mr. Stripling. Edward J. Fitzgerald?
Mr. CoE. Edward J. Fitzgerald I have seen little of.
Mr. Stripling. Harold Glasser?
Mr. CoE. Harold Glasser I knew as a student at the University of
Chicago. I knew him when I was employed at the Treasury Depart-
ment in 1939 and at other times. I should say I have seen a good deal
of Harold Glasser.
Mr. Stripling. Sonia Gold?
Mr. CoE. Sonia (lold I knew only in 1945, 1 believe, when she worked
in the Division of Monetary Research, and I saw her from time to
time as a supervisor of her work.
Mr. Stripling. Michael Greenberg?
Mr. CoE. Michael Greenberg I saw^ several times.
Mr. Stripling. How many times?
Mr. CoE. Perhaps six, perhaps a dozen.
Mr. Stripling. You said several. A dozen is quite
Mr. CoE. I must have seen Michael Greenberg — I can't remember
the year when I saw him — he was employed in the Foreign Economic
Administration or Board of Economic Warfare, one or the other.
Mr. Stripling. About when?
Mr. CoE. I should think it was 1943 but I am not sure.
INIr. Stripling. You are not sure what year ?
Mr. CoE. No.
Mr. Stripling. You only knew him this one particular year?
Mr. CoE. That was the only time I knew him.
Mr. Stripling, How about Maurice Halperin?
Mr. MuNDT. Before we leave Mr. Greenberg, as I recall your earlier
testimony about him, you said something about the relationship or
the arrangements being terminated. I didn't know what that referred
to. You were talking about Mr. Greenberg at that time ?
Mr. CoE. As I recall, he was assigned as an assistant from our agency
to Mr. Currie, who was then at the White House on the staff. After
some time that arrangement was terminated, I believe, by Mr. Currie
because Mr. Currie found he did not need an assistant, or for some
other reason, I don't recall. I believe that later in a rearrangement
of the FEA or the BEW lie was shifted, but I do not recall.
Mr. Stripling. Alger Hiss?
Mr. CoE. I have said only several times.
Mr. Stripling. Julius J. Joseph ?
Mr. CoE. To the best of my knowledge, not at all.
Mr. Stripling. Charles Kramer?
Mr. CoE. Once or twice in the the Treasury Department onl}^, I
believe.
Mr. Stripling. Once or twice?
(Mr. Coe nods head in the aflirmative.) ,
Mr. Stripling. Irving Kaplan?
Mr. Coe. Irving Kaplan, as I said, I first knew, I believe, in 1939
when he worked on some wage-and-hour figures of the Federal Security
922 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Agency where I was employed. At that time I saw a fair amount
of him. I read his report and had to deal with him.
Mr. Stripling. Solomon Lischinsky ?
Mr. CoE. Solomon Lischinsky I met once or twice, and I believe he
was in to me about employment the last time I saw him.
Mr. Stripling. Harry Magdoff ?
Mr. CoE. Very seldom.
Mr. Stripling. Robert T. Miller ?
Mr. CoE. Robert T. Miller, to the best of my knowledge, I knew
first as a parent at the school where my children are.
Mr. Stripling. Victor Perlo?
Mr. CoE. Victor Perlo I have met once or twice before I asked him
to accept employment in the Division of Monetary Research. At that
time I saw him as a supervisor whenever it was necessary.
Mr. Stripling. William W. Remington ?
Mr. CoE. I don't believe I have met him.
Mr. Stripling. Allan R. Rosenberg?
Mr. CoE. Allan R. Rosenberg was acting in the general counsel's
office at the Board of Economic Warfare at the time I was employed
there. I saw him then. He was also in various positions in the For-
eign Economic Administration, and I saw him.
Mr. Stripling. I mean after hours, after working hours. How
often did you see these people?
Mr. CoE. Ask me about each one, and I will be glad to tell you.
Mr. Stripling. In asking for information I am trying
Mr. CoE. I believe I seldom, if ever, saw Mr. Rosenberg after work-
ing hours.
Mr. Stripling. You didn't play volley ball during working hours ;
did you ?
Mr, CoE. As I have said, I was not a volley ball player.
Mr. Stripling. You brought up the fact that these people probably
got together only to play volley ball.
Mr. CoE. I said that the group — and I was speaking of the group
about which Bentley made an allegation concerning me
Mr. Stripling. Which group ?
Mr. CoE. That was the Silvermaster group.
Mr. Stripling. All right.
Mr. CoE. I said that so far as I knew the only way in which it could
be said that those people acted as a group was in the playing of volley
ball and even there several of the people she mentioned were never,
in my judgment, or rarely present, and I was one of them.
Mr. Stripling. How about George Silverman?
Mr. CoE. George Silverman I know well ; saw socially a good deal of.
Mr. Stripling. Nathan Gregory Silvermaster ?
Mr. CoE. Nathan Gregory Silvermaster I saw in 1939 and 1940
a good deal socially. Thereafter I saw him from time to time, but
infrequently.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever see any of the people mentioned on
this list at Mr. Silvermaster's home?
Mr. CoE. I may have ; I don't recall.
Mr. Stripling. You don't recall whether you ever met any of them
or not ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 923
Mr. CoE. The time when I was at Mr. Silvermaster's home, Mr.
Chairman, was about 9 years ago now. It would not surprise me if
I had seen some of them.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you remember seeing Mr. Ulhnann in Mr. Silver-
master's home ?
Mr. CoE. I should say I could be almost certain of that.
Mr. MuNDT. Certain that you did or did not ?
Mr. CoE. I cannot remember but I am almost certain that he was
there at that time, since I certainly know now and knew then that
he lived there.
Mr. Stripling. William H. Taylor?
Mr. CoE. AVilliam H. Taylor I have not seen much of socially. Dur-
ing most of this period he has been abroad.
Mr. Stripling. Donald Wheeler?
Mr. CoE. Donald Wheeler I saw, as I stated, very little about 9
years ago — 8 or 9 years ago.
Mr. Stripling. 'Harry D. White?
Mr. CoE. Harry D. White I worked for twice in permanent posi-
tions and kept in touch with and saw from time to time at lunches
and to a certain extent socially.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I would say that with 18 names
on the list his acquaintanceship with them was very casual.
Now, do you want to continue your statement about the group,
Mr. Coe?
Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. I would like to say a couple of more things, if
I may. I noticed that there was introduced here a telephone device
for recording numbers, which indicated that my name was on a tele-
phone device which Mr. Silvermaster used.
Following that I dug out or had my secretary dig out the same
devices which were used in my office in 1945 and 1946. That is a time
subsequent to Miss Bentley's apparent activity. I found on that list
Silvermaster's name. I also found on one such device which was used
in our office 266 names, on another 200.
The point I am making is that some of these people, according to
my knowledge, were friendly to each other, some were not, some were
thrown into juxtaposition by the nature of their work, some were not,
and that inevitably in Washington, as everybody knows, you meet and
know a great many people.
In saying that I do not wish to imply that in any way any of these
people ever gave me any cause to doubt their loyalty to the United
States Government.
Mr. MuNDT. You do, however, corroborate that portion of Miss
Bentley's testimony which goes to the effect that a great number of
these people associated with Mr. Silvermaster did know Mr. Silver-
master rather intimately, so well in fact that they did move around
in groups on hiking trips and volley ball games ; and it would certainly
seem conceivable that people who liked each other so well that they
played volley ball together on Saturdays and Sundays and holidays
might conceivably know each other so well they would meet together
socially in the evening also. But at least you have provided one very
interesting corroborative piece of evidence heretofore lacking, and that
924 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
is that these people have been associating together in groups, volley
ball groups, but nonetheless in groups.
Mr. CoE. Mr. Chairman, may I say that each is, of course, entitled
to his opinion on that, but the one person — on the few times I was
out to play volley ball, the one that I did not see there was Silver-
master.
Mr. MuNDT. That is perfectly correct because the testimony was
to the effect that these people associating together gave this material
to Miss Bentley through "Mr. Silvermaster.
Mr. Hebert. I think it might be well to point out to the witness —
he has made a point of the telephone indicator which was introduced —
it may be well to point out to the witness that it was quite necessary
to introduce such a piece of evidence because with rare exceptions —
and you are included among the rare exceptions — these men refused
to talk on the ground that they might self-incriminate themselves.
Mr. CoE. Yes, Mr. Chairman. I was not making my point for that
purpose. I was making the point for the purpose of indicating that
I, at least, and I believe most other people who Avorked in fairly high
positions in Government, had very extensive acquaintances in Gov-
ernment.
Mr. Hebert. There is no doubt about that. These people were
brouglit in here and refused to answer questions. And it became in-
cumbent on the committee to get the evidence the best way we could.
Also your reference to the Silvermaster group — at no time was it
ever indicated in the testimony that this group of people got together
for social activity or volley ball as a group. One possibly couldn't
have known the other, as a matter of fact, if you want to place it that
way. It was known as the Silvermaster group to designate the cer-
tain number of peoj^le in the group over which Silvermaster presided
and through which the group contacted Miss Bentley through Silver-
master.
Mr. CoE. Mr. Chairman, I personally am unable to account for the
behavior known to me of a number of these persons if they were mem-
bers of a group in any such sense as alleged here. I know of differ-
ences between the men, I know of differences in the positions that they
took on various crucial issues in the Government, which are non-
explicable to me on the grounds such as have been brought forward
here,
Mr. Hebert. It is amazing to us also, Mr. Coe.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Coe, I would like to ask you if you are acquainted
with an individual by the name of Whittaker Chambers.
Mr. Coe, No, sir. To the best of my knowled,ge I have never met
him.
Mr. Stripling. In 1935 or 1936 did you know an individual by the
name of Henry Collins ?
Mr. Coe. To the best of my knowledge I have never met him.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know an individual known to you only by
the name of Carl, C-a-r-1?
Mr. CoE. I have never known anyone simply as Carl.
Mr. Stripling. That is all the questions I have,
Mr. CoE, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. MuNDT. The committee may have some questions.
Mr. McDowell.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 925
Mr. McDowell. Only one. Where did you play volley ball, Mr.
Coe?
Mr. Coe. It was one of the sports, Mr. Congressman, that I ex-
cused myself from because it was on Sunday mornings. It was played
in a public park, usually, as far as I know.
Mr. JSIcDowELL. Not the same place all the time?
Mr. CoE. I think it was generally the same place but, as I say, though
often invited to the volley ball games, I usually did not get up even
when ]\Ir. White was my superior in the Government.
Mr. McDowell. Was it in a school yard somewhere or something of
the kind ^
Mr. CoE. It was in a public park somewhere on Sixteenth Street,,
I believe.
Mr. McDowell. That is all.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Hubert.
Mr. Hebekt. No.
Mr. MuNDT. I am a little bit puzzled, Mr. Coe, about the fact that
you know so well and can remember so clearly the names of people
who played volley ball together in the games at which you were seldom
present, but your memory is so vague about the people who attended
the Silvermaster home in the 10 or 20 times you said you were there.
Mr. Coe. No, sir. I say I believe and I have heard that a great
many of these people played volley ball often together. I could not
say on any specific occasion or I could not even swear to the ones
who did not play among this rather extensive group. Some of the
people and some of the people who are better known to the people did
play, and so far as I knew, that was the time that they got together.
I certainly knew Mr. White at intervals at certain times when I don't
believe that during the day — I can't account for all of his days — but
I have the impression that he was not seeing certain of these persons.
It was true of some others. There were some years when they might
have been seeing each other according, I would say, to the fortunes
of the bureaucracy as to whether they were crossed, as to whether
during that time they felt like having lunch with one another or did
not. So it appeared to me.
Mr. MuNDT. During the many times that you visited in the home of
Mr. Silvermaster, were you ever in that very famous basement of his?
Mr. CoE. No, sir; to my knowledge, I was not. However, if I had
been invited, I certainly would have gone down there.
Mr. MuNDT. I wish you had gone. Maybe you could tell us what
was in it. We are trying to find out.
Mr. Coe. Lest there be a contradiction in testimony, Mr. Chairman,
on the many times in the Silvermaster home, our relationship dimin-
ished mainly because I moved to Virginia. I would corroborate cer-
tain testimony which has been given here that they were pleasant
people, friendly. I thought very human people. Mr. Silvermaster
never impressed me as having any undue interest in anybody else's job
or activities. In fact, he talked an awful lot about labor and the re-
port, or whatever the current operation would be that he was engaged
in, and about general matters. That is my impression of the Silver-
masters.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. No questions.
926 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. CoE. Mr. Chairman, I have a request to make.
If Miss Bentley is here, I would like to ask her some questions.
Mr. MuNDT. The position of this committee has been — and you ex-
plained it very clearly in your statement — that we are not functioning
as a court, don't have the power, unfortunately, that a court does have,
and so we have not made it a policy to cross-examine witnesses or to
permit counsel to do so.
Had we the full authority of a court, certainly it w^ould be easier
to get down into the disputed evidence in this particular case. Since
we do not have, we cannot adapt ourselves to part of the rules of the
court without having the authority that goes with being a court. Un-
fortunately, we cannot accept your request.
Mr. CoE. Mr. Chairman, may I ask you to reconsider that on these
grounds ? My name was brought into this by Miss Bentley. She made
a very distinct allegation about me. Perhaps she was the reason why
over several years not only myself but my friends have been inter-
rogated, and now she is certainly the reason for the very harmful
j)ublicity which I have received.
It seems to me only fair, since I believe the committee can adopt
any procedures, that you allow me to ask her a few simple questions
bearing on what I may have done or what she knows I did relating
to any of the groups that she asserts she handled.
Mr. MuNDT. Is that the extent of your renewed request?
Mr. CoE. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. The Chair will have to rule the same way due to the
unfortunate fact that while we can adopt rules of procedure, we can-
not arrogate to ourselves the power of the court, since we do not have
the authority of the court, in order to get the proper decorum and the
proper rules of evidence and rules of perjury and the rules of con-
tempt which go with court procedure. Certainly, we cannot adopt
part of the procedure without having the authority which is essential
if we are going to do that.
The witness is excused.
Mr. CoE. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. MuNDT. Go ahead.
Mr. CoE. Might I state the questions and the answers ?
Mr. MuNDT. No.
Mr. CoE. Which I would have asked her.
Mr. MuNDT. No ; because you couldn't state the answers.
How could you state the answers ?
Mr. CoE. The correct answers to the questions I would have asked
her.
Mr. MuNDT. I don't know what answers she would give.
If you want to read a series of questions, I have no objection.
Mr. Stripling. I don't believe he should be permitted to answer
those questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. CoE. I am not answering for the witness ; I am answering for
myself.
'Mr. Stripling. You have been given ample opportunity to make a
statement covering any grounds you want to in your statement.
Mr. MuNDT. Why didn't you put that in your statement ?
Mr. CoE. Because it seemecl to me it would be preferable to put it as
questions to the witness. If I can't put it as questions to the witness,
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 927
I would like to simply indicate the kind of questions. They are per-
fectly fair questions, in my judgment.
Mr. Striplixg. Mr. Chairman, I don't think this procedure has ever
been followed before a congressional committee, and I see no purpose
in permitting the witness to establish a precedent. If he has addi-
tional statements, I think he should submit that for the record. He
has had ample opportunity to be heard. I don't think this is the
time to introduce novel proceedings before committees of Congress,
Mr. CoE. May I then, sir, make an additional statement ?
jNIr. McDowell. First, let me make a statement. I would like to
point out, too, Mr. Chairman, that a subcommittee is now sitting.
Any matter relating to a change in the procedure of this committee
or any other committee of the House of Representatives should be
before the full committee.
Mr. JNIuNDT. There is no question about that. There isn't any ques-
tion also that we cannot, much as we would like to do that, get au-
thority for ourselves of a court. It seems to me the witness' difficulty
is, if he wants to make a statement, he should have made it when he
had the opportunity.
Mr. CoE. May I then, sir, make an additional statement in view of
your ruling ?
Mr. Mi'NDT. Does anybody have any objection to his additional
statement ?
Mr. CoE. Mr. Chairman, may I repeat my request?
Mr. MuNDT. As soon as order is restored [referring to hurried
exodus from the hearing room by a number of photographers].
Mr. CoE. Mr. Chairman, may I repeat my request to add to my
statement ?
Mr. MuNDT. What is your request ?
INIr. CoE. That I be permitted to make an additional statement.
Mr. MuNDT. I think your additional statement should be made the
same as your original statement, in writing; and if it is pertinent, you
certainly can make it.
Mr. CoE. I don't have it in writing. I am prepared to give it orally.
Mr. McDowell. We will be here for quite a while.
Mr. MuNDT. I suggest you prepare it and bring it in. If it is perti-
nent to the inquiry — we can't stay here for stump speeches by anybody.
Mr. CoE. No, sir; it is a statement which I believe would add, and
the statements I would have based upon that would have added, to the
committee's knowledge of the facts in this case ; also the allegations
that have been made.
Mr. McDowell. That is all right.
Mr. MuNDT. I suggest then that you prepare it, submit it in writing,
and, if it is pertinent, we will permit you to make it. We will call you
back when that time comes. The witness is excused.
Mr. EoGGE. May I ask a question ?
Mr. MuNDT, No. We permit no questions by counsel. You may
consult with your witness.
Mr. RoGGE. No ; I was going to answer one of Congressman Hebert's
questions, but if that is not permitted, all right.
Mr. MuNDT. It is not directed to you ; it is directed to the witness.
Next witness.
Mr. Striplixg. Donald Hiss.
928 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. MuNDT. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to
give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God ?
Mr. Hiss. I do, sir.
Mr. MuNDT. You may be seated.
TESTIMONY OF DONALD HISS
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Hiss, will you please state your full name and
present address?
Mr. Hiss. Donald Hiss. My residence is 3030 Q, Street, Washing-
ton, D. C. My business address is 701 Union Trust Building, Wash-
ington, D. C.
Mr. Stripling. When and where were you born, Mr. Hiss?
Mr. Hiss. I was born in Baltimore, Md., on December 15, 1906.
Mr. Stripling. Are you the brother of Alger Hiss ?
Mr. Hiss. Yes ; I am, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know an individual by the name of Whit-
taker Chambers?
Mr. Hiss. I do not, sir.
Mr. Stripling. In 1935 or 1936 did you know an individual known
to you only as Carl ?
Mr. Hiss. No, sir. I want to make it perfectly clear, sir, that I have
never known any person by the name of Whittaker Chambers, by Carl,
or any other name — the man who testified against me before this com-
mittee.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Lee Pressman ?
Mr. Hiss. I did know him, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know "Victor Perlo ?
Mr. Hiss. I do not, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Charles Kramer?
Mr. Hiss. No, sir.
Mr, Stripling. Do you know Nathan Witt?
Mr. Hiss. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Hiss, are you familiar with the testimony given
by Whittaker Chambers before this committee on August 3?
Mr. Hiss. I am, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have a statement prepared in answer to that
testimony ?
Mr. Hiss. I do, sir.
Mr. Stripling. I suggest that the committee receive that statement
at this time.
Mr. Mundt. Before reading the statement, the Chair would like to
inquire of the witness whether this is his full statement or whether it is
going to be submitted on the installment plan?
Mr. Hiss. No, sir ; this is my full statement, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. McDowell. Is this the statement yon gave originally?
Mr. Hiss. Yes ; this incorporates that statement and there is also an
additional statement made.
Mr. McDowKLL. Go ahead, Mr. Hiss.
Mr. Hiss. On August 3, 1948, upon reading the full transcript of
the testimony of Mr. D. Whittaker Chaml)ers given on that date before
the House Committee on Un-American Activities, I issued a statement
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 929
to the press denying the allegations that Mr, Chambers made with
respect to me.
On Angust 5, 1 forwarded a sworn copy of this statement to the act-
ing chairman of this committee and in the covering letter stated that.
I was —
available, willing, and anxious to appear before your committee and repeat these
denials under oath and answer any questions which you or any other member of
the committee may have.
In order that the record will be clear, I should like to repeat the
statement which I issued to the press and forwarded to the committee.
In the statement I said :
I have read the full transcript of the testimony of Mr. D. Whittaker Chambers
given today before the House Committee on Un-American Activities. Among
other things Mr. Chambers said that he knew me as a member of the Communist
Party, as one of an elite Communist group which regularly met in a certain
apartment in Washington, and as the leader of a local Communist cell. With the
exception of the facts, which he also stated, that I have an older brother named
Alger Hiss, that I have been employed in the Departments of Labor and State,.
and that, as an employee of a local law firm (other than the one he named), I
assisted in rendering legal service to tlie I'olish Supply Mission in connection
with a loan granted in 1946 by the Export-Import Bank, I flatly deny every
statement made by Mr. Chambers with respect to me.
I am not and never have been a member of the Communist Party or of any-
formal or informal organizations affiliated with or fronting in any manner
whatsoever for the Communist Party. In fact, the only organizations and
clubs to which I have belonged are the local YMCA, the Miles River Yacht:
Club of Maryland, the old Washington Racquet Club, the Harvard Law School
Association, the American Society of International Law, and college fraternities,
and athletic club.s.
I have no recollection of ever having met any person by the name of D..
Whittaker Chambers, nor do I recognize his photograph which I have seen m
the public press. I am not and never have been in sympathy with the prin-
ciples of the Communist Party. Any interested person could" easily have dis-
covered these facts by inquiry of any of the distinguished, respected, and un-
questionably loyal Americans with whom I have been intimately as.sociated.
I appreciate the opportunity to amplify this general statement
of denial. Mr. Chambers testified that I met with him and other per-
sons in the house or apartment of Mr. Henry Collins at St. MattheAvs
Court in Washington in 1937 and apparently prior to 1937. Those
other persons named by Mr. Chambers were: Mr. Collins, Mr. Witt,
my brother Alger Hiss, Mr. Pressman, Mr. Kramer or Krevitsky„
and Mr. Perlo.
I deny this categorically. I have never been in any apartment or
home of Mr. Collins at St. Matthews Court or at any place else on
any occasion in 1937 or at any other time. Furthermore, to the best
of my knowledge, I have never met, have never known, and do not
know any person by the name of Charles Kramer or Krevitsky, by
the name of Victor Perlo, or by the name of D. Whittaker Chambers.
I met Mr. Collins a number of years ago probably in 1933 or 1934.
I have seen him infrequently during this period and have known him
only casually. I have never engaged in any political discussions with
him, so far as I can remember.
Mr. Pressman and ]\Ir. Abt I met when they were with the Agri-
cultural Adjustment Administration in 1933 or 1934, and Mr. Witt
I have known since 1929 when we were classmates in our first year
at the Harvard Law School. I saw Messrs. Pressman, Abt, and Witt
80408 — 48 28
930 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
occasionally in 1933, 1934, and 1935, when they were working in the
same division of the Agricultural Adjustment Administration with
my brother, Alger Hiss.
To the best of my knowledge I have never seen Mr, Abt or Mr.
Witt since 1935. Since 1935 I have only seen Mr. Pressman a few
times and then in passing him on the street except for one occasion
in 1946 when I saw him and a number of other persons at the Polish
Embassy at a social function. I attended this function because at
that time I was working on some legal matters for the Polish Supply
JNIission.
With reference to my work with the Polish Supply Mission, it was
})er formed in the capacity of an employee of my firm until January
1917, when I became a partner. It is my understanding that the firm
was retained to render legal assistance to the mission some time in
tlie last half of 1945. The senior i^artner of the firm, Mr. Edward B.
Burling, and another partner, Mr. Charles Horsky, were in charge
of the case. In the early part of 1946, it is my recollection, Mr.
Burling assigned me to assist him due to the fact that Mr. Horsky
was in Germany assisting the United States Government in prose-
cuting Nazi war criminals. Upon Mr. Horsky's return I continued
to work on this case, as well as on a number of others. The major
])art of my time was spent on drafting and negotiating contracts and
the working out of procedures for the clearance of such contracts with
the Export-Import Bank. The work was completed in March 1947.
Most of this information with respect to the services rendered by my
firm to the Polish Supply Mission, together with additional data, is
set forth, I believe, in the reports Mr. Burling submitted to the De-
partment of Justice in accordance with the Foreign Agents Regis-
tration Act.
As for the other persons mentioned by Mr. Chambers, to the best
of my knowledge, I have never met, have never known, and do not
know any person by the name of Harold Ware, by the name of Helen
AVare, or by the name of J. Peters, Goldenweiss, or Golclberger. Harry
D. White, also named by Mr. Chambers, I have seen only three times
in my life so far as I can recall. In 1942 and in 1943 t saw him at
official State and Treasury Department meetings in connection with
the administration of Foreign Funds Control, and in the winter of
1946 I saw him at the social function mentioned above.
Finally, in conclusion, let me reiterate that I know that I have never
carried on any conversation with D. Whittaker Chambers in the apart-
ment or home of Mr. Collins. This fact I know for three reasons. In
the first ]3lace, I am not and have never been a member of the Com-
munist Party or of any formal or informal organizations affiliated
with or fronting for the Communist Party. Secondly, I do not know
and do not recall having ever met Mr. D. Whittaker Chambers, either
under that name or judging from his photographs under any name
wliatever. Thirdly, I have never been in any apartment or home of
Mr. Collins.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you have any further questions for the witness, Mr.
Stripling?
]Mr. Stripling. No ; they are all answered in the statement.
Mr, MuNDT. Mr. McDowell, do you have any questions?
Mr. McDowell. I have no questions.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr, Nixon, do you have any further questions?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 931
Mr. Nixon. Yes. I simply want to clarify a couple of matters which
have been raised in the statement.
You have indicated, Mr. Hiss, that you have never been in the apart-
ment of Mr. Collins.
Mr. Hiss. That is right, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Never been a guest of Mr. Collins at any time?
Mr. Hiss. At no time, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Have you ever been in an apartment in St. Matthews
Court?
Mr. Hiss. I did not know the place, sir, until the other day after this
story broke.
Mr. Nixon. Never met Mr. Pressman or Mr. Witt at an apartment
in St. Matthews Court?
Mr. Hiss. No, sir.
Mr. Nixon. You have seen the pictures in the press of the man called
Whittaker Chambers?
Mr. Hiss. I have, sir.
Mr. Nixon. You, of course, are aware of the fact that Mr. Cham-
bers was known by the name Carl during the period that he claims
to have known you and your brother.
Mr. Hiss. Right, sir.
Mr. NixoN. As I understand your statement, you have made an
unqualified statement that you have never known a man by the name
of Carl Mdio resembled that man.
Mr. Hiss. I have never known that man by the name of Chambers,
Carl, or any other name, sir.
Mr. NixoN. You have never seen a man by the name of Carl in the
apartment of your brother Alger ?
Mr. Hiss. No, sir.
Mr. NixoN. As far as you know — I realize you can't speak for your
brother, but the question was not raised when he was before "this
committee — would you know whether or not your brother Alger
during the period '35 to '37 ever knew a man by the name of Carl ?
Mr. Hiss. Not to my knowledge, sir ; but I don't think I am quali-
fied to answer that.
Mr. Nixon. Have you discussed that matter with him since these
hearings ?
Mr. Hiss. No, sir ; I have not seen my l)rother since the evening of
the day he testified. I have not talked to him since.
Mr. Nixon. You have not discussed this new development of the
name Chambers went under?
Mr. Hiss. I have not, sir.
Mr. Nixon. I am not asking you to say for him, but I thought
if you had discussed it you could save the committee.
Mr. Hiss. I have not talked to him since the day he testified.
Mr. Nixon. Of course, we will have to ask your brother that question
ourselves.
Mr. Hiss. Very good, sir.
Mr. Nixon. That is all the questions I have.
Mr. INIuNDT. The Chair would like to make a brief statement. First,
I would like to ask the witness whether you feel you have had a full
and fair and free opportunity today to testify before this committee
concerning the facts that you wanted to present.
Mr. Hiss. I have, sir. And I appreciate it.
932 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. MuNDT. It is obvious, of course, to people who have followed
these heariniis that constantly in connection with the testimony of
Mr. Chambers as contrasted with the testimony of Miss Bentley,.
we have run into direct contradictory statements, and it is increas-
ingly apparent that perjury is involved somewhere along the line.
Unfortunately, this committee is not a court of law. For that rea-
son the Chair was compelled to rule a few minutes ago that we can-
not permit counsel of witnesses to get up and testify because if yon
do that in a congressional hearing where the people who are conduct-
ing the meeting lack the authority to invoke the rules of perjury at
once and throw a case into a grancl jury, whicli we lack, if you permit
that to occur under a situation where you have no authority to cite at
once for contempt, an irresponsible counsel or irresponsible witness^
you have opened up hearings to conditions which would approximate
chaos.
Consequently, since a congressional committee lacks those authori-
ties, it is impossible to concluct them as you would a test in a court
case. That also jjlaces the committee under other handicaps. We
have the responsibility and the task of trying to get down to the true
facts in this case. A great many witnesses have refused dogmatically
to answer questions under oath concerning their loyalty and their
affiliations and the recognition or nonrecognition of Miss Bentley and
the validity or invalidity of the direct charges she made against them.
We have heard today all of the witnesses who have asked of their
own volition to be heard, with the exception of Mr. Alger Hiss, whom
we have heard previously at his request.
We will not hold hearings tomorrow. There will be hearings held
on Monday of a few witnesses if we can reach them with a subpena
and bring them in. The committee is going to continue to take under
advisement what it can do as a legislative committee to arrive at the
truth concerning the perjury situations which have arisen. We expect
to continue to summon what witnesses are necessary to establish the
guilt or innocence of the people involved in this espionage ring with
the hope that through what action a legislative committee of Congress
can take, the guilty will be brought to punishment and the innocent
will be absolved of the suspicion attaching to them.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chairman, in that connection, as the chairman is
aware, I have been making a particular study of that phase of the
case regarding the conflict in testimony between that submitted by
Whittaker Chambers and that submitted by Alger Hiss. It is of
course clear that perjury has been committed in this case. It is, of
course, the duty of the committee not to reacli a conclusion on this
matter. That is a matter which will have to be decided in a court.
But I think the statement should be made that not only do we have-
on the one side the very forthright statement of Mr. Hiss today and
of his brother Alger Hiss the other day denying the charges of Mr.
Chambers, factually and otherwise, but we also have the charges which
Mr. Chambers made originally and which were made by him with
knowledge of the fact that he was making those charges subject to the-
laws of perjury, which would bring a $10,000 fine and 10 years in jail
in the District of Columbia. It is not a situation where we have the
charges made by an individual who has no standing whatever in the
community, but it is a case in which charges have been made by an
individual who, if those charges are false, has undoubtedly had a
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 933
motive whicli in effect would result in destroying his own career if
it is proved that those charges were false.
In view of that fact, I feel that the connnittee in this case has a duty
to proceed to hear further from the participants involved, not from
Mr. Hiss, because he has commented on all the points at issue today,
so that we can determine what facts to lay before the District of
Columbia prosecuting authorities on this particular case.
I should also like to say that I have been informed by Mr. Chambers
yesterday that he is willing and would like the opportunity to come
before the committee again and reiterate the charges that he has made
nnder oath.
Mr. MuNDT. I would like to ask in that connection one other ques-
tion of Mr. Hiss.
Mr. Hiss. Yes, sir.
Mr. MuxDT. If it develops that Mr. Chambers' testimony is false,
then it must also follow, as Mr. Nixon has pointed out, that some highly
impelling motive must have activated a man of such high responsi-
bility, great standing, and who has made a significant success of his
career, to launch such charges against people like you and your brother
Alger. I want you to search your memory very carefully and tell the
committee whether you can think of any conceivable motive that Mr.
Chambers would have, or any other man who might resemble Mr.
Chambers would have, to come before this committee of his own voli-
tion and in sworn testimony make the charges he has made against
jou? Is there some motive you can think of that would throw some
light on this, for the benefit of the committee and for the benefit of
helping to clear you and your brother Alger, if your statements are,
in fact, true?
Mr. Hiss. I have given a lot of consideration to that, Mr. Chair-
man, and I cannot come to any answer.
Mr. INIuNDT. You can think of no reason why he might have made
the charges against your brother Alger?
Mr, Hiss. No, sir.
Mr. MvxDT. Can you shed any light on this which will help us get
to the true facts?
Mr. Hiss. None, sir ; but I do not think I am exactly unbiased. It
has been a personal attack on me : it has hurt my family, my mother
who is 81 years old, and I feel it very bitterly, sir,
Mr. MuNDT. Surely, but you are a very interested party in this and
we are all trying to get this thing unraveled so that the public will
say, "This is the truth," and everybody knows it.
Mr. Hiss. I will continue to think' about it, sir, and if I can think
of any motive I will certainly come back to the committee.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you have any suggestion whatsoever to make to the
connnittee as to what procedure you think we should follow in helping
to resolve this conflict of evidence?
We would be mighty happy to have your recommendation.
Mr. Hiss. I think Mr. Nixon's suggestion is proper; if I am lying
I should go to jail and if Mr. Chambers is lying he should go to jail.
Mr. MuNDT. There is no question about that.
Thank you very much.
The committee will stand adjourned until Monday.
(Whereupon, at 4: 10 p. m., an adjournment was taken until Mon-
day, August 16, 1948.)
HEARINGS EEGARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
MONDAY, AUGUST 16, 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Special Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. C.
EXECUTR^ session ^
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2 p. m., in the hearing
room of the Committee on Un-American Activities, Old House Office
Building, Hon. J. Parnell Thomas (chairman) presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives J. Parnell Thomas,
John McDowell, Richard M. Nixon, and F. Edward Hebert.
Staff members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator;
Louis J. Russell, William A. Wheeler, investigators; Benjamin Man-
del, director of research; A. S. Poore, editor; and L. E. Howard,
member of the research staff, for the committee.
The Chairman. The meeting will come to order. Tlie record will
show that a subcommittee is sitting consisting of Mr. McDowell, Mr.
Nixon, Mr. Hebert, and Mr. Thomas. A quorum of the subcommittee
is present.
Mr. Stripling, the first witness.
Mr. Stripling. Alger Hiss.
The Chairman. Please stand and raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Hiss. So help me God, I do.
The Chairman. Sit down, please. Mr. Stripling.
TESTIMONY OF ALGER HISS
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Hiss, you have previously appeared before the
committee in open session. You are here in response to a telegram
which was sent you last Friday ?
Mr. Hiss. That is correct. May I make an inquiry ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hiss. I would like to be advised what the arrangements are
with respect to a transcript of this particular meeting of the subcom-
mittee. Will I be entitled to receive a copy of the transcript of this
meeting ?
* Testimony taken in executive session and released during the pubUc hearing, August 25,
1948.
935
936 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. Mr. Hiss, this is an executive session, and that
speaks for itself that everything is supposed to be right within these
four walls. Therefore, we do not naturally give out the testimony
taken in executive session.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chairman, I think it should be said that in the
event the transcript or portions of the transcript are made public, you
will receive a copy in the event it is used, but in the event that it is
kept confidential and not made public, the custom of the committee
is not to furnish a transcript.
The Chairman. That is correct.
Mr. Hiss. That is all.
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I would like to identify everyone
in the room to Mr. Hiss first. Mr. Hiss, this is the official reporter.
He is with Ward & Paul, who does our official reporting.
This is Congressman Hebert; Chairman Thomas; Congressman
McDowell; Congressman Nixon ; Mrs. Howard, who is on the commit-
tee research staff; Mr. Mandel, who is director of research; Mr.
Wheeler, who is an investigator; Donald Appell is an investigator;
Mr. Russell is an investigator; Mrs. Poore is editor of the committee;
and myself. Everybody here is either a member of the committee or
attached to the staff of the committee.
Mr. Hiss. Could I get the lady's name beside Congressman Nixon.
Mr. NixON. Mrs. Howard, H-o-w-a-r-d.
Mr. Hiss. Thank you.
Mr. NixoN. As of course, Mr. Hiss, you are aware, the committee
has a very difficult problem in regard to the testimony which has been
submitted to the committee by Mr. Chambers and by yourself.
The committee feels that it has the responsibility to resolve that
problem as well as it can ; and the purpose of this hearing and of the
questions which the members of the committee will ask at this time is
to assist the committee in resolving that particular problem.
We have come to the conclusion, a conclusion which incidentally I
think had to be reached by the members of the committee under the
circumstances, that the individual who has come before the commit-
tee and has given false testimony must, if possible, answer for that
testimony.
For that reason we are going this afternoon to go into a number
of items which I can assure you have a direct bearing on that problem.
We appreciate the fact that you have come down to testify willingly,
and I trust that you will bear with me if some of the questions that I
may ask may seem to be lengthy or even going over ground previously
covered because we want the record to be absolutely straight on the
conflicts between testimony presented by Mr. Chambers and yourself,
the points at variance, and the points, if any, of agreement.
Now, when did you first hear of Whittaker Chambers ?
Mr. Hiss. The first time I ever heard of Whittaker Chambers to
the best of my knowledge was when two representatives of the Fed-
eral Bureau of Investigation called at my office at 700 Jackson Place,
I think, in the month of May 1947, and among the list of names of
people they asked me if I was acquainted with was the name Whittaker
Chambers.
I remember the name distinctly because they first asked me if J
knew someone named Chambers, and I replied that I did.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 937
I identified a boyhood friend of mine, Robert Chambers, who lived
near me in Baltimore, and who was an agent of the Bureau himself
for a while. He is now with the Customs Bureau. They said they
did not mean Bob Chambers.
They asked me if I had ever heard of the name Whittaker Cham-
bers, and I remember the name stuck in my memory at the moment
because it sounded like a distinctive and unusual name, and I said "No."
His name Avas 1 of 15 or 20, I would guess, of whom I was asked, of
whom I had never heard.
There were one or two others I was asked about at the time whose
names I had never heard before, and their names also have remained
in my memory.
Mr. Nixon. You testified when you were before the committee
before that in 1936 Mr. Byrnes had
Mr. Hiss. 1946.
Mr. Nixon. I am sorry — 1946. Mr. Byrnes had asked you to talk
to him concerning certain allegations made by Members of Congress
concerning Communist affiliations, and at that time you saw Mr. Tamm,
of the FBI.
Mr. Hiss. I think I talked to Mr. Tamm on the telephone to get the
appointment, and I rather think it was Mr. Ladd rather than Mr.
Tamm whom I actually saw, but that I wouldn't want to have to
testify to under oath. That is my best recollection.
I called Mr. Hoover, and he was out of town, and I was told Mr.
Tamm was second in command. I know Mr. Tamm personally because
he was associated with the San Francisco Conference.
Mr. NixoN. Did Mr. Tamm mention the name of Whittaker Cham-
bers ?
Mr. Hiss. To the best of my knowledge, no. If he did, it did not
click.
Mr. NixoN. Did Mr. Ladd mention the charges to which Mr. Byrnes
had referred ?
Mr. Hiss. No. Again, in testifying from recollection some years
back, my recollection is that Mr. Ladd first said did I have any state-
ment I wish to make? I told him that in the interval between my
telephone call and the day when they were able to see me, which was
at least 1 day later, I had been thinking of any possible basis for any
such charge. I was trying to think of all the associations or the
organizations that I might possibly have been connected with.
To the best of my recollection, I recited what I had been able to
recall that might be of significance. I was asked very few questions.
I do remember one or two names of individuals. I was asked if I
knew Pressman.
The Chairman. What was the name ?
Mr. Hiss. Pressman.
Mr. Stripling. Lee Pressman.
Mr. Hiss. I told Mr. Ladd and someone who was with him in that
interview what I have since said and what is the fact, the extent to
which I have known Mr. Lee Pressman.
I was asked, I think, about one or two other names, and I just
frankly don't recall who the others were, but if the name Chambers
was asked of me, I have no recollection of it, and it didn't make any
impression on me at the time.
938 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr, Nixon. You definitely say you could not possibly have heard
of the name Whittaker Chambers before that time?
Mr. Hiss. I would say I couldn't before May 1947, because my recol-
lection is so strong on it.
Mr. Nixon. You didn't hear the name Whittaker Chambers in 1939 ?
Mr. Hiss. No.
Mr. Nixon. As you have probably noted from press accounts of the
hearings, Whittaker Chambers during the period that he alleges that
he knew you was not known by the name of Whittaker Chambers. He
has testified that he was known by the name of Carl. Do you recall
having known an individual between the years 1934 and 1937 whose
name was Carl ?
Mr. Hiss. I do not recall anyone by the name of Carl that could
remotely be connected with the kind of testimony Mr. Chambers has
given. I think I know two or three people named Carl, one of whom
1 certainly knew, I would think, as far back as 1937— Carl Spaith.
1 don't at the moment tliink of anyone else by the name of Carl whom
I knew as far back as that. I know another man named Carl whom I
have known more recently.
Mr. Nixon. You knew them as well by their last names?
Mr. Hiss. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. Your testimony is then that you knew no person by the
name of Carl between 1934 and 1937 ?
Mr, Hiss. Merely by the name of Carl — absolutely,
Mr, Nixon, Your testimony, then, is that you have never known an
individual solely by the name of Carl ?
Mr. Hiss. That is correct, Mr. Nixon ; that is my testimony.
Mr, Nixon, Do you know J, Peters ?
Mr. Hiss, I do not.
Mr. Nixon. Have you ever known a man by the name of Peter ?
Mr. Hiss. I have never known anybody solely by the name of Peter.
I have known some people by the name of Peter and people whose
last name was Peters.
Mr. Nixon. Through the years 1934 to 1937, did you know anybody
named Peter?
Mr. Hiss. I would like to reply to that perhaps with clarity the
same way I did with the question about the name Carl. Between
the years 1934 and 1937 I knew no one who was known to me only by
the name of Peter. I knew no one who was named J. Peter or J. Peters.
The only people whose first names were Peter were personal friends
with no possible connection. I have known some people whose first
name was Peter.
Mr. Nixon. Now, Mr. Hiss, there is some testimony in your pre-
vious record before the committee concerning your acquaintanceship
with Henry Collins.
Mr. Hiss. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. My question is now : do you recall ever having gone to
the apartment of Henry Collins on St. Matthew's Court ?
Mr. Hiss. I certainly wouldn't want to say I had never been there
because, as I testified before, I have known Mr. Collins since we were
boys. I have visited in his place of abode, whether it happened to be
an apartment or a house, and he in mine certainly since we again knew
each other when I was in law school in 1929.
Where is St. Matthew's Court? Can somebody identify the place?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 939
Mr. Stripling. Near Dupont Circle.
Mr. McDoA\'ELL. I think it is a little north of the circle about a
block.
Mrs. Howard. Between Longfellow Building and St. Matthew's
Church.
Mr. Hiss. I think Henry Collins had an apartment in that neigh-
borhood and I think I have been in that apartment. I have no clear
recollection.
Mr. Nixon. Those were social occasions ?
Mr. Hiss. Entirely.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall your brother being there at the same
time?
Mr. Hiss. No. My brother doesn't know him as well as I do, so far
as I recall. He may not know him at all.
Mr. Nixon, You could have been in the apartment of Henry Col-
lins at St. Matthew's Court?
Mr. Hiss. That is a very fair way of stating it.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall whether on any occasion that you were
in that apartment that Mr. Lee Pressman was there?
Mr. Hiss. Again I don't want to say that that didn't occur because
I knew Pressman while I was in the Department of Agriculture, as I
had known him previously, and it might very well have been at any
number of social occasions when he was present. I wouldn't want
to testify that I wasn't at any particular one. I may very likely have
been in this apartment of Mr. Collins. I may have been in that apart-
ment at the time Mr. Pressman was also present, only on social
occasions.
Mr. Nixon. Then there were occasions when Mr. Pressman and
you were with Mr. Collins ?
Mr. Hiss. That I would not be able to testify to positively because
I don't actually recall the conjunction because my friendship with
Collins was a personal friendship and my friendship with Pressman
was what I could properly describe as a business friendship. I had
known him only as a lawyer.
Mr. Nixon. If there had been occasions, let us say, six or more occa-
sions, on which Mr. Pressman and you were together in Henry Collins'
apartment, would you remember for sure ?
Mr. Hiss. I think I would. Wliat I really have in mind, to be abso-
lutely explicit, is that if Mr. Collins had 15 or 20 people in for a drink
or cocktails, or a larger number, and Mr. Pressman had been one of
them. I would not be able to testify now positively yes; and if he
wasn't there, I wouldn't be able to testify positively now that he
wasn't.
It would not have struck me as unusual if he had been, because
various officials of the Government who were here in the early days
of the New Deal met at social parties all over the city of Washington
quite frequently, and I certainly am sure that I have been to parties
as well as official conferences where Mr. Pressman was present.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall Mr. Nathan Witt having been at the
apartment of Henry Collins when you were there?
Mr. Hiss. I have no recollection of it.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall Mr. John Abt having been at the apart-
ment of Henry Collins when you were there ?
940 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Hiss. I have no recollection of it, but again I would not want
to deny ever having been on a social occasion in Mr. Collins' apartment
when either of those men might have been present.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall Mr. Kramer ever having been there when
you were there ?
Mr. Hiss. I have no recollection.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall Mr. Perlo having been there?
Mr. Hiss. I don't even think I know Mr. Perlo. I certainly don't
recall him having been there.
Mr. Nixon, may I just interpose one thing?
Mr. Nixon. Yes.
Mr. Hiss. My recollection is that Henry Collins was living not in
an apartment but in a house with four or five roommates, four or five
young men in Government who took it together somewhere in the
Dupont Circle region at the time when he first came down to Wash-
ington.
Mr. Nixon. During the period of approximately 1934-38 did you
ever pay any money to Henry Collins ?
Mr. Hiss.' I don't recall ever having paid him any money for any
purpose, even a personal transaction, Mr. Nixon.
Mr. NixoN. I am now showing you two pictures of Mr. Whittaker
Chambers, also known as Carl, w^ho testified that he knew you between
the years 1934-37, and that he saw you in 1939.
I ask you now, after looking at those pictures, if you can remember
that person either as Whittaker Chambers or as Carl or as any other
individual you have met.
Mr. Hiss. May I recall to the committee the testimony I gave in the
public session when I was shown another photograph of Mr. Whit-
taker Chambers, and I had prior to taking the stand tried to get as
many newspapers that had photographs of Mr. Chambers as I could.
I testified then that I could not swear that I had never seen the man
whose picture was shown me. Actually the face has a certain fa-
miliarity. I think I also testified to that.
It is not according to the photograph a very distinctive or unusual
face. I would like very much to see the individual face to face. I
had hoped that would happen before. I still hope it will happen
today.
I am not prepared to say that I have never seen the man whose pic-
tures are now shown me. I said that when I was on the stand when
a different picture was shown me. I cannot recall any person with
distinctness and definiteness whose picture this is, but it is not com-
pletely unfamiliar.
Whether I am imagining that or not I don't know, but I certainly
wouldn't want to testify without seeing the man, hearing him talk^
getting some much more tangible basis for judging the person and the
personality.
Mr. Nixon. Would your answer be any different if this individual
were described to you "as one who had stayed overnight in your house
on several occasions?
Mr. Hiss. I think, Mr. Nixon, let me say this: In the course of my
service in Government from 1933 to 1947 and the previous year 1929-30,
and as a lawyer I have had a great many people who have visited in my
house.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 941
I have tried to recall in the last week or so anyone who would know
my house whom I wouldn't know very well. There are many people
that have come to my house on social occasions or on semi business
occasions whom I probably wouldn't recall at all.
As far as staying overnight in my house is concerned
Mr. Nixon. On several occasions.
Mr, Hiss. On several occasions ?
Mr. Nixon. On several occasions.
Mr. Hiss. I can't believe, Mr. Nixon, that anyone could have stayed
in my house when I was there
Mr. Nixon. When you were there.
Mr. Hiss. — Overnight on several occasions without my being able
to recall the individual ; and if this is a picture of anyone, I would find
it very difficult to believe that that individual could have stayed in my
house when I was there on several occasions overnight and his face not
be more familiar than it is.
Mr. Nixon
Mr. Nixon. Yes.
Mr. Hiss. I don't want to suggest any innovations in your procedure,
but I do want to say specifically that I do hope I will have an oppor-
tunity actually to see the individual.
Mr. Nixon. It is going to be arranged. I might say that before
arranging the meeting, we want to be certain that there is no question
of mistaken identity, as well as possible, and also that we had a clear
conflict on certain pieces of testimony that had been given by both
sides, and that we are getting now.
Mr. Hiss. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. I might say this, too : That Mr. Chambers, as you may
be aware of newspaper accounts, appeared in executive session before
us on Saturday.
Mr. Hiss. Saturday a week ago. I think.
Mr. Nixon. Just 2 days after you appeared.
Mr. Hiss. I saw newspaper accounts of that.
Mr. Nixon. At that time we went into the situation with him,
showed him pictures of you, and he declared without question you
were the man.
For that reason we wanted to be sure that you had the same oppor-
tunity before we went into open session. Obviously, as you can see,
an open session will involve a considerable amount of publicity, and
•we were thinking that if that could be avoided, that it should be
avoided. It is quite apparent now, even so far as we have gone, that
eventually that is going to occur, but I wanted to go into a few more
questions here first.
Now, you have never paid any money to Peters?
Mr. Hiss. No.
Mr. Nixon. Never paid any money to Carl ?
Mr. Hiss. Never paid any money to Carl.
Mr. Nixon. Never paid any money to Henry Collins that you can
recall?
Mr. Hiss. I can't recall it even on a personal basis.
Mr. NixoN. Never paid dues to the Communist Party ?
Mr. Hiss. No.
942 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. Your testimony now is that you are not a member of
the Communist Party?
Mr. Hiss. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. Never been a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Hiss. Never been a member of the Communist Party,
Mr. Nixon. Or of any underground organization connected with
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Hiss, Not any underground organizations connected with the
Communist Party.
Mr. Nixon. Do you have any children, Mr. Hiss ?
Mr. Hiss. I have two children.
Mr. Nixon. You have two children. Could you give us their ages?
Mr. Hiss. One will be 22 — he is my stepson — will be 22 September
19 next. His name is Timothy Hobson. He has been my stepson since
he was 3 years old. I was married in 1929.
I have one other son who is now 7. He was 7 the day when I testi-
fied publicly before this committee, August 5. He was born August
5, 1941. His name is Anthony Hiss.
Mr. NixoN. He was born after this period of 1934-37, which is in
question.
Mr. Hiss. He was born after the period you are talking about,
Mr. Nixon. Did you testify before what your wife's name was?
Mr. Hiss. Her name was Priscilla Fansler. her maiden name. Her
first marriage was to a Mr. Hobson, H-o-b-s-o-n.
Mr. Nixon. Where did she come from ? What town ?
Mr. Hiss, She was born in Evanston, 111,, but spent most of her
early life outside of Philadelphia.
Mr. Nixon. In Paoli ?
Mr. Hiss. Frazer.
Mr. Nixon. Is that near Paoli ?
Mr. Hiss. It is on the main line not far from there. She went to
school there and she went to school actually, I think, in Bryn Mawr,
as well as to college in Bryn Mawr.
Mr. McDowell. Frazer and Paoli are a few miles apart?
Mr, Hiss. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Did she live there on a farm?
Mr. Hiss. Her father was in the insurance business, and he ac-
quired a small place — I suppose it could be called a farm — from which
he commuted to his insurance business.
Mr. Nixon. Would it be possible, Mr. Hiss, for Mrs. Hiss to appear
in executive session to corroborate your testimony ?
Mr. Hiss. It would be possible for her to appear in executive session.
I believe she would corroborate my testimony.
Mr. Nixon. As you can see, the more corroboration we have for your
story, the better it is going to be from your standpoint, and also from
the standpoint of the committee. I will say that both you and Mr.
Chambers are as convincing witnesses as I have ever seen. I have so
stated publicly, but we Avould like to hear Mrs. Hiss, if that is possible.
Mr. Hiss. That certainly is possible. It is her privilege.
Mr. Nixon. Is she in town ?
Mr. Hiss. She is in Peacham, Vt., where we spend our summers.
Mr. Nixon. Would it be possible to hear her tomorrow? I realize
it is short notice.
Mr. Hiss. She would have to catch the night train.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 943>
Mr. Hebekt. I can't hear you.
Mr. Hiss. Mrs. Hiss is now in Peacham, Vt., a town about 50 miles
this side of the Canadian border in northern Vermont, It would be
possible for her to take the night train down, which is the night train
I came doAvn on last niglit. I spent the week-end in Peacham. It has.
been our custom to spend the summers in Peacham for about 10 years.
My family spends the summers there, and I try to spend week-ends
with them when I can.
Mrs. Hiss would either have to bring 7-year-old Tony with her, or
try to find someone to stay with him while she came down.
Mr. Nixon. I realize the difficulty involved and, as I say, we want to
avoid, in fact, I would say, two things: We want to avoid a public
session in this case and also we want to avoid any publicity on if, but
we would like to hear Mrs. Hiss in executive session tomorrow after-
noon, if possible.
Mr. Hiss. I think the fair thing under the circumstances would be-
for me to try to reach her by telephone. We have no telephone in the
house in Peacham. She would have to take the message in the general
store.
Mr. Nixon. If you could do that — and, incidentally, we will make-
the phone available because we want to pay the charges ourselves — it
would be greatly appreciated by the committee.
Mr. Hiss. Would you like me to telephone her now, Mr. Nixon ?
Mr. NixoN. We could do this, Mr. Hiss, Mr. Stripling has just
suggested that a subcommittee could meet Mrs. Hiss, for example, in
New York if that would be more convenient.
Mr. Hiss. The same train gets into New York at 8 : 10 when it is on
time that gets in here at 1 : 10.
Mr. Nixon. In other words, we could hear her tomorrow morning if
we were in New York.
Mr. Hiss. That is correct, and tomorrow afternoon if you sit here..
Mr. Nixon. That would mean she wouldn't have to come clear to-
Washington with the youngster and also it would mean that there
would be absolutely no publicity, which I must say we are very anxious-
about in this case. After the hearing, if you will make the call, we
could arrange to meet her in New York.
Mr. Hiss. Would you tell me where you would like to meet her, and'
I would like the privilege of calling her now because she is going to
have to make arrangements. We are about 35 miles from the train.
I am driven over by a taxi driver, and just what his engagements are
I don't know. I imagine she would want someone to stay with Tony
while she is away — one of her friends.
The Chairman. Let's not do that at this time. Let's proceed with
the questioning and then go ahead with it.
Mr. Nixon. I don't think we will take too much longer, Mr. Hiss,,
possibly 30 minutes.
Now, is your son Timothy still living with you ?
Mr. Hiss. No ; my son Timothy is now living on his own as an inde-
pendent earning male.
Mr. Nixon. Where is he at the present time?
Mr, Hiss. I think he is on his way back from California at the present
time. He was expecting to return on the 16th, and I believe today is
the 16th.
Mr. Nixon. Is he living in New York ?
Mr. Hiss. He is living in New York.
944 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon, Could you give us the address of your son in New York?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, you are asking me about a subject which is
one of rather deep concern to me.
Mr. Nixon. I understand.
Mr. Hiss. My son served in the Navy, V-12. He went in as a very
young man. AVhen he left the Navy, he did not wish to go on with
college. I did wish him to go on. He had had some college while 'a
the Navy V-12 program. He feels the need of independence of hix.
parents at the present time. He is being what people in Vermont calf
not only independent, but "indegoddampendent." That is a Ver-
montism.
I have an address from my son which I am told is not his present
address. He has not told me or his mother in the past few months
what his present address is. I expect he will do so. This is not the
first time in the last year when he has changed address and told me
after the event instead of before. I believe he tried to reach me by
telephone the night before I testified here, because a phone call came
in for me at the hotel from Los Angeles and I couldn't figure who it
was and didn't know he was in Los Angeles at the time. I have since
learned he was in Los Angeles and I believe he was calling me.
I learned from the same person who knew he was in Los Angeles
that he would be back in New York on the 16th. I don't know of my
own knowledge. I can give you the address in New York. I don't
think you can reach him there.
I wonder if you would mind if I gave you instead the address of
his doctor, because he has been consulting a psychiatrist in the last
couple of years.
Mr. Nixon. Would the doctor know where he is ?
Mr. Hiss. He will get in touch with the doctor as soon as he returns.
The doctor has his other address, and I didn't think it appropriate
to ask the doctor for his address. It is Dr. Abram Kardiner. You
will understand why this is a very difticult subject to talk about
because I love my stepson very deeply. Many people take an exag-
gerated view of what psychiatric assistance means.
Mr. Nixon. You can be sure, Mr. Hiss, that there w^ill be absolutely
no statement whatever concerning these statements.
Mr. Hiss. Dr. Kardiner is now on his vacation, but would be glad
to come to New York and would be glad to answer the telephone. I am
sure as a physician any call to his office in New York — he lives at 1100
Park Avenue, which is the corner of Eighty-ninth Street and Park
Avenue. I think I have his number in the country, but I am sure
any call to his office they will immediately tell you how to reach him
at his country place.
Mr. Stripling. How do you spell his full name ?
Mr. Hiss. A-b-r-a-m K-a-r-d-i-n-e-r.
Mr. Stripling. 1100 Park Avenue?
Mr. Hiss. 1100 Park Avenue, New York.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss, could you give the committee the name of any
servants you had during the period 1934 to 1937?
Mr. Stripling. May I interrupt? Does he go under the name of
Timothy Hiss or Timothy Hobson ?
Mr. Hiss. Timothy Hobson.
Mr. Nixon, may I raise a question at this point?
Mr. Nixon. Certainly.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 945
Mr. Hiss. I have been angered and hurt by one thing in the course
of this committee testimony, and that was by the attitude wliich I
think Mr. Mundt took when I was testifying publicly and which, it
seems to me, you have been taking today, that you have a conflict of
testimony between two witnesses — I restrained myself with some diffi-
culty from commenting on this at the public hearing, and I would like
to say it on this occasion, which isn't a public hearing.
Mr. Nixox. Say anything you like.
Mr. Hiss. It seems there is no impropriety in saying it. You today
and the acting chairman publicly have taken the attitude when j^ou
have two witnesses, one of whom is a confessed former Communist,
the other is me, that you simply have two witnesses saying conti-adic-
tory things as between whom you And it most difficult to decide on
credibility,
Mr. Nixon, I do not know what Mr. Whittaker Chambers testified
to your committee last Saturday. It is necessarily my opinion of liim
from what he has already said that I do know that he is not capable
of telling the truth or does not desire to, and I honestly have the feel-
ing that details of my personal life which I give honestly can be
used to my disadvantage by Chambers then ex post facto knowing
those facts.
I would request that I hear Mr. Chambers' story of his alleged
knowledge of me. I have seen newspaper accounts, Mr. Nixon, that
you spent the week end — whether correct or not, I do not know — at
Mr. Chambers' farm in New Jersey.
Mr. Nixon. That is quite incorrect.
Mr. Hiss. It is incorrect.
Mr. Nixon. Yes, sir. I can say, as you did a moment ago, that I
have never spent the night with Mr. Chambers.
Mr. Hiss. Now, I have been cudgeling my brains, particularly on
the train coming down this morning, and I had 3 or 4 hours on the
train between New York and Washington, as to who could have
various details about my family. Many people could,
Mr. Nixon, I do not wish to make it easier for anyone who, for
whatever motive I cannot understand, is apparently endeavoring to
destroy me, to make that man's endeavors any easier. I think in
common fairness to my own self-protection and that of my family
and my family's good name and my own, I should not be asked to give
details which somehow lie may hear and then may be able to use as if he
knew them before. I would like him to say all he knows about me
now. What I have done is public record, where I have lived is
public record. Let him tell you all he knows, let that be made public,
and then let my record be checked against those facts instead of my
being asked, Mr, Nixon, to tell you personal facts about myself which,
if they come to his ears, could sound very persuasive to other people
.^ that he had known me at some prior time.
Mr, Nixon. The questions I have asked you to date, Mr. Hiss, if
you will recall them, have all been facts that could be corroborated
by third parties. Now, the question of whether or not, the question of
who your servants were, I will tell you very frankly it is purely for
the purpose of corroboration and it will be the intention of the com-
mittee, if possible, to find one of the servants to see whether or not
they will corroborate the story,
80408—48 29
946 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Now you, of course, are under no compulsion to give the committee
the names of the servants, but the purpose is that.
Novr, the second point I wish'to make is this : Of course, there is a
very serious implication in your statement, and that is that the com-
mittee's purpose in questioning you today is to get information with
which we can coach Mr. Chambers so that he can more or less build a
web around you.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, I meant no such implication.
Mr. Nixon. You can be very sure when I say this testimony is going
to be in executive session, it will be. The same assurance was given
to Mr. Chambers.
Mr. Hiss. May I please, before that point gets cold — I meant no such
implication. You have identified a number of people who are present
m the room, A record is being kept. The people in this gentleman's
office will jDrocess the record, a number of people that none of us here
can be sure of now will see this record and will have the information
which is contained in it. You are dealing with something, Mr. Nixon,
which is very important to you as an official. You are dealing with
something which is very important to me not only as a former official
and one interested in the security of the United States, but you are
also dealing with something which affronts me personally in a way
which it does not affect the members of this committee personally.
Mr. Stripling. May I say something?
Mr. Hiss, I can assure you that as far as the members of the com-
mittee I have talked to are concerned, they have a very open mind
on this thing and I certainly do, but this testimony you speak of has
already been turned over to the United States attorney, including the
executive testimony.
Mr. Hiss. Certainly.
Mr. NixoN. Mr. Chambers' testimony has.
Mr. Stripling. We just got this picture. I listened to his testimony
in New York and I can assure you that there was no prearrangement
or anything else with Mr. Chambers, but here is what he did. He sat
there and testified for hours. He said he spent a week in your house
and he just rattled off details like that. He has either made a study
of your life in great detail or he knows you, one or the other, or he is
incorrect.
Mr. Hiss. Could I ask you to ask him some questions ?
Mr. Stripling. Here is a larger picture. Let the record show this
larger picture taken by the Associated Press photo on August 3, 1948,
of Mr. Mundt and Mr. Whittaker Chambers and, as the record previ-
ously stated, Mr. Chambers is much heavier now than he was in 1937
or 1938.
Does this picture refresh your memory in any way, Mr, Hiss?
Mr.-Hiss. It looks like the very same man I had seen in the other
pictures of, and I see Mr. Mundt and him in the same picture. The
face is definitely not an unfamiliar face. Whether I am imagining
it, whether it is because he looks like a lot of other people, I don't
know, but I have never known anyone who had the relationship with
me that this man has testified to and that, I think, is the important
thing here, gentlemen. This man may have known me, he may have
been in my house. I have had literally hundreds of people in my house
in the course of the time I lived in Washington.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 947
The issue is not whether this man knew me and I don't remember
him. The issue is whether he had a particular conversation that he
has said he had with me and which I have denied and whether I am a
member of the Communist Party or ever was, which he has said and
which I have denied.
If I could see the man face to face, I would perhaps have some
inkling as to whether he ever had known me personally.
I have met within the past week a man who said he worked on the
same staff in a confidential relationship at San Francisco that I did
who definitely knew me, and I have no recollection of ever having
seen that man.
The Chairman. May I ask a few questions ?
Mr. NixoN". Certainly.
The Chairman. Mr. Hiss, would you be able to recall a person if
that person positively had been in your house three or four times, we
will say, in the last 10 years ?
Mr. Hiss. I would say that if he had spent the night
Mr. Stripling. Ten years ?
Mr. Nixon. Fifteen years.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Hiss. I would say if he had spent the night — how many times
did you say ?
Mr. Stripling. He spent a week there.
Mr. Hiss. A whole week at a time continuously ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Hiss. And I was there at the same time ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Chairman, I could not fail to recall such a man if
he were now in my presence.
The Chairman. Wait a minute. You are positive then that if
Mr. X spent a week in your house in the past 15 years you would recog-
nize him today, assuming that Mr. X looks today something like what
he looked then ?
Mr. Hiss. Exactly, if he hadn't had a face lifting.
The Chairman. No doubt in your mind ?
Mr. Hiss. I have no doubt whatsoever.
The Chairman. Now, here is a man who says he spent a week in
your house in the last 15 years. Do you recognize him ?
Mr, Hiss. I do not recognize him from that picture.
Mr. Nixon. Did that man spend a week in your house in the last 15
years ?
Mr. Hiss. I cannot say that man did, but I would like to see him.
The Chairman. You say you cannot believe, but I would like to
have a little more definite answer if you could make it more definite.
Would you say he did or did not spend a week in your house ?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Chairman, I hope you will not think I am being
unreasonable when I say I am not prepared to testify on the basis of a
photograph. On the train coming down this morning I searched my
recollection of any possible person that this man could be confused with
or could have got information from about me.
The Chairman. Then you are not prepared to testify on this subject
from a photograph?
Mr, Hiss, I am not prepared to testify on the basis of a photograph.
I would want to hear the man's voice.
948 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. If the man himself came in here, you would be able
to say yes or no ?
Mr. Hiss. I think I would, sir.
The Chairman. You think you would.
Mr. Hiss. I can't believe a ma^n would have changed as much as that,
and I am absolutely prepared to testify that nobody, that man or any
other man, had any such conversation with me in my house or any-
where else as he has testified to.
Mr. Stripling. What conversations did he testify he had with you
in your house?
Air. Hiss. Mr. Chambers, according to the record that I read, he said
that he came to my house and pled with me to break with the Commu-
aiist Party, and that I refused, and that I had tears in my eyes, and
that the reason I gave was something about the Communist Party line.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss, let me explain this. Mr. Chambers, as indi-
cated, did testify that he spent a week in your house. He also testified
to other facts concerning his acquaintanceship with you — alleged facts,
I should sa}' — and I want to point out that the committee by getting
answers to completely objective questions from you will be in a position
to go certainly to third parties and to find out whether or not Mi".
Chambers has committed perjury.
Now, on one point it is pretty clear that j^ou have indicated that Mr.
Chambers must have committed perjury because he said he spent a
week in your house.
Now, these other matters to which Mr. Chambers has testified involve
the same type of testimony. I want to say when Mr. Chambers
appeared, he was instructed that every answer he gave to every question
"would be material and he was instructed off the record before that that
a material question would subject him to perjury. So consequently, as
you see, a matter of membership in the Communist Party is one thing
because that is a matter which might be and probably would be con-
cealed, but a matter of objective items concerning his relationship with
you, his alleged relationship with you, can be confirmed in some cases
by third parties and that, frankly, is the purpose of these questions.
Mr. Hiss. May I say one thing for the record?
Mr. Nixon. Certainly.
Mr. Hiss. I have written a name on this pad in front of me of a
person whom I knew in 1933 and 1934 who not only spent some time
in my house but sublet my apartment. That man certainly si)ent more
than a week, not while I was in the same apartment. I do not recog-
nize the photographs as possibly being this man. If I hndn't seen
the morning papers with an account of statements that he knew the
inside of my house, I don't think I would even have thought of tliis
name. I want to see Chambers face to face and see if he can be this
individual. I do not want and I don't think I ought to be asked to
testify now that man's name and everything I can remember about
him. I have written the name on this piece of paper. I have given
the name to two friends of mine before I came in this hearing. I can
only repeat, and perhaps I am being overanxious about the possibility
of unauthorized disclosure of testimony, that I don't think in my
present frame of mind that it is fair to my position, my own protec-
tion, that I be asked to put down here of record personal facts about
myself which, if they came to the ears of someone who had for no
' COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 949
reason I can understand a desire to injure me, would assist him in
that endeavor.
Mr. Nixon. This man who spent the time in 1933 and 1934 is still a
man with whom you are acquainted?
Mr. Hiss. He is not.
Mr. Nixon. And vrhere were you living at that time ?
Mr. Hiss. He was not named Carl and not Whittaker Chambers.
Mr. Nixon. AYhere were you living at that time ?
Mr. Hiss. I have again written down here to the best of my recol-
lection because I have not checked down with leases — this is something
I did on the train coming down and the leases are in my house in New
York — where I believed I lived from June of 1933 until September
1943.
Again, Mr. Nixon, if I give the details of where I was, it is going
to be very easy if this information gets out for someone to say then
ex post facto, "I saw Hiss in such and such a house." Actually, all
he has to do is look it up in the telephone directory and find where it is.
The Chairman. The chairman wants to say this : Questions will be
asked and the committee will expect to get very detailed answers to
the questions. Let's not ramble all around the lot here. You go ahead
and ask questions and I want the witness to answer.
Mr. Nixon. Your testimony is that this man you knew in 1933 and
1934 was in one of the houses you lived in ?
Mr. Hiss. I sublet my apartment to the man whose name I have
written down.
Mr. Nixon. But you were not there at the same time ?
Mr. Hiss. I didn't spend a week in the same apartment with him.
He did spend a clay or two in my house when he moved in.
Mr. Nixon. This was the apartment you lived in between 1933 and
1934?
Mr. Hiss. It is exactly that apartment— 1934 and 1935.
Mr. NixoN. Between 1934 and 1935?
Mr. Hiss. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. When you sublet your apartment ? There was no other
apartment and you can't testify as to what apartment that was?
Mr. Hiss. I can testify to the best of my recollection. If this com-
mittee feels, in spite of what I have said^ —
The Chairman. Never mind feelings. You let Mr. Nixon ask the
questions and you go ahead and answer it.
Mr. Hiss. I want to be sure Mr. Nixon definitely wants me to answer
responsively in spite of my plea that I don't think he should ask
me. But if he does — Mr. Nixon also asked me some questions in the
public hearing that I didn't want to answer, and I took the same posi-
tion that if Mr. Nixon insisted on an answer after he knew my posi-
tion. I will answer. I will give every fact of where I lived.
Mr. Stripling. Let the record show. Mr. Hiss, you brought up this
ex post facto business. Your testimony comes as' ex post facto testi-
mony to the testimony of Mr. Chambers. Hfe is alreadv on record, and
I am not inferring that you might know what he testified to, but cer-
tainly the United States attorney's office has several copies.
Mr. Hiss. I do not and made no attempt to find out.
Mr. Nixon. Not only does the United States attornev's office have
copies of Mr. Chambers' testimony before us on the subject— and you
950 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
can confirm that by calling Mr. Morris Fay of that office, because he
has two copies; he requested and received, and he will receive this
testimony today. He will receive this testimony today, because I
will tell you that he asked for it just 30 minutes before you walked
into this room, and he will get it just as soon as we have completed this
case.
Now, quite obviously, I think that you can see that we are not
attempting at this time to have you testify to facts with which we are
going to brief Mr. Chambers. What we are trying to do is test the
credibility of Mr. Chambers, and you are the man who can do it,
and you can help us out by answering these questions and, frankly, I
must insist.
Mr. Hiss. If you insist, I will, of course, answer. May I make one
observation ?
Mr. Nixon. Yes.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Chambers, I believe, appeared in executive session
before this committee before he testified publicly ; is that correct ?
Mr. Stripling. No, sir.
Mr. Hiss. There was a press report to that effect. Did he not meet
with you in executive session?
Mr. Stripling. You mean the morning of the session?
Mr. McDowell. The session lasted about 2 minutes. No testimony
other than
Mr. Stripling. The committee saw him
Mr. McDowell. It was a matter of getting his name and where he
worked.
Mr. Hiss. Did you not know his testimony — that he was going to
testify about me?
Mr. Stripling. No.
Mr. Hiss. After the public testimony, this committee met further
Avith Mr. Chambers, who was able as of that date, I assume, to add new
testimony that you did not have before, which you will excuse me for
saying, was ex post facto my testimony.
Mr. NixoN, Forty-eight hours after your testimony.
Mr. Hiss. That is right, and my testimony w^as public testimony.
Mr. NixoN. That is correct.
Mr. Hiss. He has now testified and I would assume that the United
States attorney's office will want further testimony from him.
Mr. Nixon. And from you.
Mr. Hiss. I certainly assume so and hope so. If what I testify to in
this committee today through no fault of any official of this committee
or any member of its staff comes to his attention, as my public testi-
mony, of course, came to his attention, he will again be able to testify
ex post facto to my testimony of today.
Now, I want that on the record. If you think, as I don't regard
this body as an inquisitorial body determining crime, if you wish to
ask me detailed questions and think it is your duty to ask me, it is my
duty to answer, and I have said all I want to say. I am not evading
the question.
Mr. Hebert, Mr. Hiss, let me say this to you now — and this is
removed of all technicalities, it is just a man-to-man impression of the
whole situation. I think it is pertinent.
I don't surrender my place on this committee to any individual who
has an open mind, particularly regarding you and Mr. Chambers. I
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 951
am not interested in who is lying except to the extent that it will only
give us an insight to further the case and that we are about to find out
whetlier espionage was in eli'ect in this country to the detriment of the
security of this country.
I do not take the stand and never have taken the stand in this com-
mittee that anything is involved other than to get to the facts. I
have tried just' as hard in the public hearings to impeach those wit-
nesses who are assumed to be so-called committee witnesses as I have
tried to impeach the other witnesses. I think the record will speak
for that.
We did not know anything Mr. Chambers was going to say. I did
not hear your name mentioned until it was mentioned in open hearing.
Mr. Hiss. I didn't know that.
Mr. Hebert. As I say, I am not trying to be cagey or anything, but
trying to put it on the line as certainly one member of this committee
wiio has an open mind and up to this point don't know which one of
the two is lying, but I will tell you right now and I will tell you exactly
Avhat I told Mr. Chambers so that will be a matter of record, too:
Either you or Mr. Chambers is lying.
Mr. Htss. That is certainly true.
Mr. Hebert. And whichever one of you is lying is the greatest
actor that America has ever produced. Now, I have not come to the
conclusion yet which one of you is lying and I am trying to find the
facts. Up to a few moments ago you have been very open, very
cooperative. Now, you have hedged. You may be standing on what
you consider your right and I am not objecting to that. I am not
pressing you to identify a picture when you should be faced with the
man. That is your right.
Now, as to this inquiry which you make much over, and not without
cause, perliaps, we 'met Mr. Chambers 48 hours after you testified in
open session. Mr. Chambers did not know or have any inclination
of any indication as to the questions that we were going to ask him,
and we probed him, as Mr. Stripling says, for hours and the committee,
the three of us — Mr. Nixon, Mr. McDowell, Mr. Stripling, and my-
self— and we literally ran out of questions. There wasn't a thing that
came to our minds that we didn't ask him about, these little details,
to probe his own testimony or rather to test his own credibility.
There couldn't liave been a possible inkling as to what we were
going to say about minor details, and he could not have possibly
by the farthest stretch of the imagination prepared himself to answer
because he didn't know where the questions were coming from and
neither did we because we questioned him progressively; so how he
coukl have prepared himself to answer these details which we now,
and Mr. Nixon has indicated, we are now checking and for the sake
of corroboration — for my own part I can well appreciate the position
you are in, but if I wei'e in your position, I would do everything I
humanly could to prove that Chambers is a liar instead of me.
Mr. Hiss. I intend to.
Mr. Hebert. And that is all we are trying to do here. Further than
that, I recognize the fact that this is not an inquisitorial body to the
extent of determining where the crime lies. We are not setting forth
to determine ourselves as to which one of you two has perjured your-
self. That is the duty of the United States attorney for the District
of Columbia. He is confronted with the fact that perjury has been
952 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
committed before this congressional committee, wliicli is a crime. It
is up to the United States district attorney and the Department of
Justice to prosecute that crime and that is all we are trying to do.
Now, if we can get the help from you and, as I say, if I were in your
position I certainly would give all the help I could because it is the
most fantastic story of unfounded — what motive would Chambers
have or what motive — one of you has to have a motive. You say you
are in a bad position, but don't you think that Chambers himself
destroys himself if he is proven a liar? What motive would he have
to pitch a $25,000 position as the respected senior editor of Time
magazine out the window ?
Mr. Hiss. Apparently for Chambers to be a confessed former Com-
munist and traitor to his country did not seem to him to be a blot on
his record. .He got his present job after he had told various agencies
exactly that. I am sorry but I cannot but feel to such an extent that
it is difficult for me to control myself that you can sit there, Mr.
Hebert, and say to me casually that you have heard that man and you
have heard me, and you just have no basis for judging which one is
telling the truth. I don't think a judge determines the credibility
of witnesses on that basis.
Mr. Hebert. I am trying to tell you that I absolutely have an
open mind and am trying to give you as fair a hearing as I could
possibly give Mr. Chambers or yourself. The fact that Mr. Chambers
is a self-confessed traitor — and I admit he is — the fact that he is
a self-confessed former member of the Communist Party — which
I admit he is — has no bearing at all on whether the facts that he
told — or, rather, the alleged facts that he told
Mr. Hiss. Has no bearing on his credibility?
Mr. Hebert. No ; because. Mr. Hiss, I recognize the fact that maybe
my background is a little different from yours, but I do know police
methods and I know crime a great deal, and you show me a good
police force and I will show you the stool pigeon who turned them. in.
Show me a police force with a poor record, and I will show you a
police force without a stool pigeon. We have to have people like
Chambers or Miss Bentley to come in and tell us. I am not giving
Mr. Chambers any great credit for his previous life. I am trying
to find out if he has reformed. Some of the greatest saints in history
were pretty bad before they were saints. Are you going to take away
their sainthood because of their previous lives? Are you not going
to believe them after they have reformed ?
I don't care who gives the facts to me, whether a confessed liar,
thief, or murderer, if it is facts. That is all I am interested in.
Mr. Hiss. You have made your position clear. I would like to
raise a separate point. Today as I came down on the train I read
a statement — I think it was in the New York News — that a member
of this committee, an unidentified member of this committee had told
the press man wlio wrote the article that this committee believed
or had reason to believe from talking to Chambers that Chambers
had personally known Hiss, not that Chambers had had the conver-
sation which is the issue here, that Chambers had been in Hiss' house.
That is not the issue before this committee. You are asking me to
tell you all the facts that I know of people who have been in my house
or who have known me whom I would not feel absolutely confident
are people I know all about, personal friends, people I feel I know
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 953
through and through. I am not prepared to say on the basis of the
photograj^h
Mr. Hebert. We understand.
Mr. Hiss. — That the man, that he is not the man whose name I have
written down here. Were I to testify to that, what assurance have
I that some member of this committee wouldn't say to the press that
Hiss confessed knowing Chambers?
In the first place, I have testified and repeated that I have never
known anybody by the name of Whittaker Chambers. I am not pre-
pared to testify I have never seen that man.
Mr. Hebert. You have said that.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever seen that one [indicating picture] ?
The Chairman. What is the question ?
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever seen the individual whose photograph
appears there ?
Mr. Hiss. So far as I know : no.
Mr. Stripling. You have never seen that person ?
Mr. Hiss. No.
Mr. Hebert. For the record, the issue is whether Chambers did
have the conversation witli you, that is admitted, but the only way
we can establish the fact that Chambers had the occasion to have
the conversation with you is we have to establish the fact that Hiss
knew Chambers and Chambers knew Hiss, and this is very pertinent.
The Chairman. Let's go on with the question.
Mr. Nixon. If Chambers' credibility on the question of whether
he knew you or not is destroyed, obviously you can see that this state-
ment that he had a conversation with you and that you were a member
of the Communist Party, which was made on the basis of knowledge,
would also be destroyed: and that is exactly the basis upon which
this questioning is being conducted, I can assure you, because those
are personal matters: whether you are a member of the Communist
Party and whether he had a conversation with you individually is
something that no third party can corroborate one way or the other.
But these other facts are matters which third parties can corroborate.
They won't prove, obviously, even if there is agreement on all facts,
that this man knew you, but if there is disagreement on these facts,
they will prove that Chambers is a perjurer and that is what we are
trying to find out. If we prove he is a perjurer on the basis of his
testimony now, the necessity of going into the rest of the matter will
be obviated.
Mr. Hiss. But if he is able through my action to make a more plaus-
ible story of having known me or if he has in fact known me under
circumstances very different from those he has testified to, I think
in my own self-protection I should have a chance to see him. I think
that for me to be asked details that may get back, through no fault
of yours — I can only repeat if this committee asks me to go on with
this specific line of inquiry, I will certainly do it. I do not feel com-
fortable about being in a position to protect my own reputation be-
cause I don't think knowledge of any individual is the issue here.
Mr. Nixon. I see. Now, I will say this in asking the question that
started this discussion — who were your servants during 1934 to 1937 —
that the purpose of that question is to attempt to find an individual
who could corroborate either your story or Mr. Chambers' story that
954 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
he did or did not spend time in your house between 1934 and 1937. If
you will give us those names, we will appreciate it.
Mr. Hiss. I am not sure how helpful I can be. The first maid we
had when we were in Washington as far back as 1929, I think, was
with us for a while when we returned in 1933. She was a Negro
maid. Her name was Martha Pope.
Mr. Nixon. That was in 1933?
Mr. Hiss. I think Martha returned to our service in 1933.
Mr. Nixon. She came back to you ?
Mr. Hiss. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Started to work for you in 1933 ?
Mr. Hiss. Yes. I am not positive she did and not positive how
long she stayed with us, if she did come back.
Mr. Nixon. She was there for how long?
Mr. Hiss. Some years previously.
Mr. Nixon. After 1933 do you recall how long she was with you?
Mr. Hiss. No, I cannot; and I am not absolutely sure she came
back.
Mr. Nixon. That was spelled P-o-p-e ?
Mr. Hiss. P-o-p-e.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall anybody else that you had?
Mr. Hiss. We had a servant that we got through an agency, I
think, when we lived on P Street, and I am afraid I cannot recall her
name. She wasn't with us very long. She wasn't very satisfactory.
Mr. Nixon. When you lived on P Street ?
Mr. Hiss. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. You don't recall the name. What agency did you get
her through ?
Mr. Hiss. I would have to ask my wife.
Mr. Nixon. We will ask your wife tomorrow. Do you recall any
others ?
Mr. Hiss. I don't even recall that we had a servant when we lived
on Thirtieth Street. No ; I am afraid I cannot recall the names. I
can recall more recent ones.
Mr. Nixon. That is, more recent than 1937 ?
Mr. Hiss. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. That wouldn't help us. The only name you recall is
ihat of Martha Pope and you can't say whether or not she was with
you after 1933?
Mr. Hiss. No.
Mr. Nixon. We don't have the names of any servants in the period
in question.
Mr. Hiss. I am afraid I can't.
Mr. Nixon. If you had taken one of these servants home, would you
be able to tell us where she lived, for example, from time to time?
Mr. Hiss. Yes. You mean if I had driven a servant to where she
lived?
Mr. Nixon. Yes; that is common practice. I do it, for example,
with the woman who works for us.
Mr. Hiss. I have done that.
Mr. Nixon. Does that refresh your memory ?
Mr. Hiss. I remember the area where Martha Pope lived. She
lived over near Howard University. I have been over there to ask
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 955
if she were available, if she were sick. I may have even taken her
home. I don't remember.
Mr. Nixon. You don't remember the last time you had her, the
last year?
Mr. Hiss. No ; I do not.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you live in 1934 ?
Mr. Hiss. According to the best of my memory, without checking
the leases — and I jotted these clown this morning — from June 1933
until, I think, about September 1934, I lived on O Street in George-
town. This testimony is on the assumption that what I said made
no difference to the committee and you wish to follow this line of
inquiry.
Mr. Nixon. Let me say this : The testimony as to where you have
lived is, of course, information that can be obtained by an investi-
gator in any event hj checking the leases.
Mr. Hiss. It is in the telephone book and the leases are in the
agencies.
Mr. Stripling. O Street was a house ?
Mr. Hiss. A house.
Mr. Stripling. How many rooms?
Mr. Hiss. A garage downstairs, one went up to the floor above the
street level for living quarters. It was a living room, immediately
behind it a dining room, then off into a kitchen in an L. I am not
sure that I can testify exactly as to the lay-out of the bedrooms, which
were above that.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chairman, I would like to suggest that since we have
become involved in this rather lengthy discussion, that the committee
recess for 5 minutes so that this telephone call can be made to Mrs.
Hiss. It is very important that Mrs. Hiss appear before the com-
mittee.
Now, does the committee want to discuss that ?
Mr. McDoavell. I would add to that request for immediate execu-
tive session.
The Chairman. We will recess. Mr. Hiss, will you please remain
in the other room.
(At this point there was a short executive session off the record and
with the witness out of the room.)
Mr. NixoN. The committee thought in the case of Mrs. Hiss that it
would be an imposition to have her come on such short notice; and
since there will be some members available for a week or so here in
Washington, we thought we could arrange it at her and your conve-
nience in the future.
Mr. Hiss. That is kind of you.
The name of the man I brought in — and he may have no relation to
this wliole nightmare — is a man named George Crosley. I met him
when I was working for the Nye committee. He was a writer. He
]iopecl to sell articles to magazines about the munitions industry.
I saw him, as I say, in my office over in the Senate Office Building,
dozens of representatives of the press, students, people writing books,
research people. It was our job to give them appropriate informa-
tion out of the record, show them what had been put in the record.
This fellow was writing a series of articles, according to my best recol-
lection, free lancing, which he hoped to sell to one of the magazines.
956 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
He was pretty obviously not successful in financial terms, but as far
as I know, wasn't actually hard up.
Mr. Stripling. What color was his hair ?
Mr. Hiss. Rather blondish, blonder than any of us here,
Mr, Stripling. Was he married ?
Mr. Hiss, Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Any children ?
Mr. Hiss. One little baby, as I remember it, and the way I know
that was the subleasinor point. After we had taken the house on P
Street and had the apartment on our hands, he one day in the course
of casual conversation said he was going to specialize all summer in
getting his articles done here in Washington, didn't know what he
was going to do, and was thinking of bringing his family,
I said, "You can have my apartment. It is not terribly cool, but
it is up in the air near the Wardman Park," He said he had a wife and
little baby. The apartment wasn't very expensive, and I think I let
him have it at exact cost. My recollection is that he spent several
nights in my house because his furniture van was delayed. We left
several pieces of furniture behind.
The P Street house belonged to a naval officer overseas and was
partly furnished, so we didn't need all our furniture, particularly
during the summer months, and my recollection is that definitely, as
one does with a tenant trying to make him agreeable and comfortable,
we left several pieces of furniture behind until the fall, his van was
delayed, wasn't going to bring all the furniture because he was going
to be there just during the summer, and we put them up 2 or 3 nights
in a row, his wife and little baby.
Mr, Nixon, His wife and he and little baby did spend several nights
in the house with you ?
Mr, Hiss, This man Crosley ; yes.
Mr, Nixon, Can you describe his wife ?
Mr, Hiss. Yes; she was a rather strikingly dark person, very strik-
ingly dark, I don't know whether I would recognize her again because
I didn't see very much of her.
Mr, Nixon, How tall was this man, approximately?
Mr. Hiss. Shortish.
Mr. Nixon, Heavy?
Mr, Hiss. Not noticeably. That is why I don't believe it has any
direct, but it could have an indirect, bearing.
Mr. NixoN. How about his teeth ?
Mr. Hiss. Very bad teeth. That is one of the things I particularly
want to see Chambers about. This man had very bad teeth, did not
take care of his teeth,
Mr. Stripling. Did he have most of his teeth or just weren't well
cared for?
Mr. Hiss. I don't think he had gapped teeth, but they were badly
taken care of. They were stained and I would say obviously not
attended to.
Mr, Nixon. Can you state again just when he first rented the
apartment?
Mr. Hiss. I think it was about June of 1935, My recollection is —
and again I have not checked the records — that is, I went with the
Nye munitions committee in the early winter of 1934. I don't even
remember now when the resolution was passed. In any event, I am
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 957
confident I was living on Twenty-ninth Street from December 1934:
to June 1935 and that coincided with my service with the Nye com-
mittee. I say that because one reason we took the apartment was to
reduce our living costs, because after I had been on loan from the
Department of Agriculture for some months, I thought it would only
be a 2-month assignment or so, it became evident that I was to stay
on longer if I should complete the job, and my deputy in the De-
partment of Agriculture was doing all my work and not getting my
salary and I did not feel it fair, so I resigned from the Department,
of Agriculture to go on with the Nye committee work at the Nye com-
mittee salary and contemplated that and talked it over with my deputy
in the Department of Agriculture for some time before I did it. So I
am sure, from my recollection, that the Twenty-ninth Street apart-
ment is definitely linked in time with my service on the Nye com-
mittee.
Mr. Stripling. What kind of automobile did that fellow have ?
Mr. Hiss. No kind of automobile. I sold him an automobile, I
had an old Ford that I threw in with the apartment and had been
trying to trade it in and get rid of it. I had an old, old Ford we had
kept for sentimental reasons. We got it just before we were married
in 1929.
Mr. STRirLiNG. Was it a model A or model T ?
Mr. Hiss. Early A model with a trunk on the back, a slightly-
collegiate model.
Mr. Stripling. What color ?
Mr. Hiss. Dark blue. It wasn't very fancy but it had a sassy little
trunk on the back.
Mr. Nixon. You sold that car ?
Mr. Hiss. I threw it in. He wanted a way to get around and I said,
"Fine, I want to get rid of it. I have another car, and we kept it for
sentimental reasons, not worth a damn." I let him have it along with
the rent.
Mr. Nixon. Where did you move from there ?
Mr. Hiss. Again my best recollection is that we stayed on P Street
only 1 year because the whole heating plant broke down in the middle
of the winter when I was quite ill, and I think that we moved from
2905 P Street to 1241 Thirtieth Street about September 1936. I recall
that quite specifically though we can check it from the records, because
I remember Mr. Sayre, who was my chief in the State Department,
who had been my professor at law school, saying he wanted to drive by
and see where I was living. I remember the little house on Thirtieth
Street which we had just got, a new development, was the little house I
drove him by, and it must have been September or October 1936, just
after starting to work in the State Department.
Mr. Nixon. Going back to this man, do you know how many days
approximately he staj^ed with you?
Mr. Hiss. I don't think more than a couple of times. He may have
come back. I can't remember when it was I finally decided it wasn't
any use expecting to collect 'from him, that I had been a sucker and
he was a sort of deadbeat; not a bad character, but I think he just
was using me for a soft touch.
Mr. Nixon*. You said before he moved in your apartment he stayed
in your house with you and your wife about how many days?
958 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Hiss. I would say a couple of nights. I don't think it was
longer than that.
Mr. Nixon. A couple of nights ?
Mr. Hiss. During the delay of the van arriving.
Mr. Nixon. Wouldn't that be longer than 2 nights ?
Mr. Hiss. I don't think so. I wouldn't swear that he didn't come
back again some later time after the lease and say, "I can't find a
hotel. Put me up overnight," or something of that sort. I wouldn't
swear Crosley wasn't in my house maybe a total of 3 or 4 nights
altogether.
Mr. Nixon. You don't recall any subjects of conversation during
that period?
Mr. Hiss. We talked backwards and forwards about the Munitions
Committee work. He told various stories that I recall of his esca-
pades. He purported to be a cross between Jim Tully, the author,
and Jack London. He had been everywhere. I remember he told
me he had personally participated in laying down the tracks of the
street cars in Washington, D. C. He had done that for local color,
or something. He had worked right with the road gang laying tracks
in Washington, D. C.
Mr. Stripling. Was his middle initial "L" ?
Mr. Hiss. That I wouldn't know. There may be a lease record,
must be some record with the apartment house of who the person was
who was my subtenant.
Mr. Nixon. With the apartment house ?
Mr. Hiss. I think H. L. Kust were the agents.
INIr. NixoN. You can't recall the names of any servants other than
the one you mentioned ?
Mr. Hiss. While you were out of the room I thought of a woman
I described as being unsatisfactory. She was rather sullen in per-
sonality, and I think her name was Ellen. I think we called her
"Sullen Ellen," but I may be wrong on that. I think she was our
servant when we lived on P Street.
Mr. Nixon. You gave this Ford car to Crosley?
Mr. Hiss. Threw it in along with the apartment and charged the
rent and threw the car in at the same time.
Mr. Nixon. In other words, added a little to the rent to cover the
car ?
Mr. Hiss. No ; I think I charged him exactly what I was paying for
the rent and threw the car in in addition. I don't think I got any
compensation.
Mr. Stripling. You just gave him the car?
Mr. Hiss. I think the" car just went right in with it. I don't remem-
ber whether we had settled on the terms of the rent before^ the car
question came up, or whether it came up and then on the basis of the
car and the apartment I said, "Well, you ought to pay the full rent."
Mr. Stripling. Are you hard of hearing in your left ear ?
Mr. Hiss. Not to my knowledge.
Mr, Stripling. I noticed you had your hand up to your ear.
Mr. Hiss. If I have done that, it is only when I wanted to be sure
I was hearing.
Mr. Stripling. You did that before the committee in open session
and did then. If you are having difficulty, we can all move this way.
Mr, Hiss. I am not aware of it and never heard any doctor say so.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 959
Mr. Nixon, I have a few more of these questions, which I feel will
help us a great deal if you are willing to answer them.
Mr. Hiss. I am willing to answer any question you ask.
Mr. Nixon. I assure you, as I have before, that as far as the com-
mittee is concerned the cold record, Mv. Chambers' testimony, and
your testimony are going to have to stand up together.
Mr, Hiss. We won't go into that question again.
Mr. Stripling. May I ask another question?
Mr. Nixon. Yes.
Mr. Stripling, When you had this Ford car do you remember where
you bought your gasoline ?
Mr. Hiss. No; I don't remember where we bought gas when we
were living on Twenty-ninth Street. On O Street I am afraid I don't
remember whether I had a regular place. I remember a regular place
in recent years, and even earlier, but when we first came down I don't
think we had a regular place.
Mr. Stripling. What kind of car did you get ?
Mr. Hiss. A Plymouth.
Mr. Stripling. A Plymouth ?
Mr. Hiss. Plymouth sedan.
Mr. Stripling. Four-door?
Mr. Hiss. I think I have always had only two-door.
Mr. Stripling. What kind of a bill of sale did you give Crosley ?
Mr, Hiss, I think I just turned over — in the District you get a cer-
tificate of title, I think it is, I think I just simply turned it over to
him,
Mr. Stripling. Handed it to him ?
Mr. Hiss. Yes.
]Mr. Stripling. No evidence of any transfer. Did he record the
title ?
Mr. Hiss. That I haven't any idea. This is a car which had been
sitting on the streets in snows for a year or two. I once got a park-
ing fine because I forgot where it was parked. We were using the
other car.
Mr. Stripling, Do those model Fords have windshield wipers ?
Mr. Hiss. You had to work them yourself.
Mr. Stripling. Hand operated ?
Mr. Hiss. I think that is the best I can recall.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall the voice of this fellow Crosley ?
Mr. Hiss. I was trying to recall that this morning. It was a low
voice. He speaks with a low and rather dramatic roundness.
Mr. Stripling. Would you say it is a subdued voice ?
Mr. Hiss. No ; I don't particularly think that is so. It is not very
loud, but the main thing I have in mind would be a deepness, a lowness.
Mr. McDowell, A heavy voice ?
Mr, Hiss, Lower voice than I have,
Mr, Nixon, Was he a man pretty talkative about his accomplish-
ments, et cetera ?
Mr. Hiss, That is right.
Mr, Nixon, There are matters which I wish to go into now to which
Mr, Chambers has given categorical answers, I am going to put the
questions objectively, as you can see, I am not going to try to lead
you one way or the other. It will be very helpful as the two records
look together to see how accurate he is in this case.
960 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
I want to say first of all, so that it won't come up, that I realize
that the matters which are covered are matters which third parties
could corroborate, and that is the reason we ask these particular ques-
tions. Again for the purpose of just checking the veracity of Mr.
Chambers and your testimony. It will help us to check it again.
What were the nicknames you and your wife had ?
Mr. Hiss. My wife, I have always called her "Prossy."
Mr. Nixon. What does she call you ?
Mr. Hiss. Well, at one time she called me quite frequently "Hill,"
H-i-1-1.
Mr. Nixon. What other name?
Mr. Hiss. "Hilly,'^ with a "y." .
Mr. NixoN. What other name did you call her ?
Mr. Stripling. What did you say 'i
Mr. Hiss. She called me "Hill'' or "Hilly." I called her "Pross" or
"Prossy" almost exclusively. I don't think any other nickname.
Mr. NixoN. Did you ever call her "Dilly"?
Mr. Hiss. No; never.
Mr. Nixon. Never to your knowledge in fun or otherwise ?
Mr. Hiss. Never.
Mr. Nixon. What did you call your son ?
Mr. Hiss. "Timmv."
Mr. Nixon. "Timmy''?
Mr. Hiss. Yes; and in the family he is also known as "Moby,"
M-o-b-y.
Mr. Nixon. That is in the family now ?
Mr. Hiss. Yes ; but he was "Tim" and "Timmy" most ; in the family
circle we called him "Moby."
Mr. Nixon. You testified you took your servants home ?
Mr. Hiss. I have on occasions,
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall the age of this particular woman, Mrs.
Pope, by any chance?
Mr. Hiss. Martha, I would say she was probably in her 40's and
very plump, very, very plump, large cheerful plump woman.
Mr. Nixon. Was she a cook or housekeeper ?
Mr. Hiss. Cook and waitress. We never had more than one maid at
a time.
Mr. Nixon. You don't recall any other servant after that as far as
age is concerned ?
Mr. Hiss. This woman Ellen would be in her 50's, tall and dark.
Ellen, I think, was older than Martha.
Mr, Nixon. Did you ever take her home?
Mr. Hiss. I don't think so.
Mr. Nixon. You did take Martha home?
Mr. Hiss. Yes; Martha was practically a member of the family.
Mr. Nixon. Any other cook you took home ?
Mr. Hiss. We had a cook in recent years and I can't remember how
far back it went. Certainly to the early 1940's, During the war she
left us to take employment.
Mr. Nixon. If as much as possible we can limit our testimony to the
years 1934 to 1937, it will, be helpful because there is nothing else at
issue.
Mr. Hiss. On this business of maids it is hard. You don't hire peo-
ple on an annual basis. They stay until something happens, and the
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE CgJ
one I remember taking home best I doubt if she was in our employ as
early as 1937.
One other maid, whose name was Drusilla, lived in Georgetown, I
don't recall ever having taken her home. I think we may have had her
as early as 1937 ; maybe it was 1938.
Mr. Nixon. Where did you spend 3^our vacations during that period ?
Mr. Hiss. Normally, I think I didn't begin going to Peacham regu-
larly until either 1937 or 1938 ; may have been 1937. My son went to
a camp over on the Eastern Shore of Maryland. I am partly an East-
ern Shore man myself. Part of my family came from there. When
he was at camp we sjjent two summers, I think, during this period in
Chestertown, Sid.
Mr. Nixon. On the Eastern Shore ?
Mr. Hiss. On the Eastern Shore of Maryland. He went to a camp
of friends of ours who lived just outside of Chestertown. For two
summers we took a small apartment.
Mr. Nixon. Did you have pets ?
Mr. Hiss. We had a brown cocker spaniel we had before we came tO'
Washington, was with us all during that period, and lived to be so old
she died of old age.
Mr. Nixon. What did you do with the dog when you went on your
vacations; do you recall?
Mr. Hiss. I think we took Jenny over on the Eastern Shore. I think
we took her on the Eastern Shore when we went there. She did spend
some time in the kennels when we were away.
Mr. Nixon. You can't recall for sure?
Mr. Hiss. We had a very good vet out near Rock Creek Park.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know his name ?
Mr. Hiss. No ; but I could easily ascertain it.
Mr. Nixon. That is where you would have left the dog, boarded the
dog?
Mr. Hiss. Yes ; at that time I think we left her there.
Mr. Nixon. Can you ascertain that before you leave?
Mr. Hiss. I can tell you how you get there.
Mr. Nixon. How would you get there ?
Mr. Hiss. You go right out the road that runs west of Rock Creek
Park in the Chevy Chase area, and he had a house and his kennels
elevated from the road just before you get to the end of that road that
runs parallel to Rock Creek Park and turns off in the middle of Rock
Creek Park. His name might be Dr. Evans. I wouldn't be sure.
Mr. Nixon. What hobby, if any, do you have, Mr. Hiss ?
Mr. Hiss. Tennis and amateur ornithology.
Mr. Nixon. Is your wife interested in ornithology?
Mr. Hiss. I also like to swim and also like to sail. My wife is inter-
ested in ornithology, as I am. through my interest. Maybe I am using
too big a word to say an ornithologist because I am pretty amateur,
but I have been interested in it since I was in Boston. I think anybody
who knows me would know that.
Mr. McDowell. Did you ever see a prothonotary warbler ?
Mr. Hiss. I have right here on the Potomac. Do you know that
place ?
The Chairman. What is that?
80408—48—30
962 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. Have you ever seen one 'i
Mr. Hiss. Did you see it in the same place ?
Mr. McDowell. I saw one in Arlington.
Mr. Hiss. They come back and nest in those swamps. Beautiful
yellow head, a gorgeous bird.
Mr. Collins is an ornithologist, Henry Collins. He is a really good
ornithologist, calling them by their Latin names.
Mr. Nixon. What schools do you recall your son attended in 1934
to 1937?
Mr. Hiss. Tim was in the Friends School briefly here.
Mr. Nixon. Where did he go before that?
Mr. Hiss. It is going to be hard to be sure. He went to a small
school called the Cobb School, I think, in Chevy Chase.
Mr. Nixon. Is that called the Chevy Chase School also?
Mr. Hiss. I don't think so. I think it was just called the Cobb
School. Mr. Cobb ran it.
After Friends School he went to boarding school to George School in
Pennsylvania near Doylestown, right near Newtown, Pa.
Mr. Nixon. Is the Friends School a rather expensive school, would
you say, or moderate-priced school?
Mr. Hiss. I Avould say moderate.
Mr. Nixon. And Cobb's School the same ?
Mr. Hiss. Yes. I might say Timmy's educational expenses were
paid by his own father as part of the arrangement.
Mr. Nixon. Was the Cobb School, do you recall, more expensive
than the Friends School ?
Mr. Hiss. I would guess it was iDrobably less because it didn't carry
through the grades thoroughly. It was a preschool and early primary
grades.
Mr. Nixon. And you can't recall that there was a school in between
that and Friends School ?
Mr. Hiss. I don't recall it, Mr. Nixon. He went to the Landon
School here for a while.
Mr. Nixon. That is after Friends School ?
Mr. Hiss. That is after he had been at Friends and before he went
to George School liut not between Cobb and Friends. He went to
Landon School, which is off Connecticut Avenue out when you get to
Bradley Lane.
Mr. Nixon. Is that more expensive than the other?
Mr. Hiss. That was a rather expensive school.
Mr. Nixon. More so than Friends School?
Mr. Hiss. I think so.
Mr. Nixon. You don't recall the school he went to immediately be-
fore Friends?
Mr. Hiss. No ; I don't.
Mr. Nixon. But you would say the Friends School was a moderate
priced school?
Mr. Hiss. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. Then you put him in a more expensive school ?
Mr. Hiss. Landon was more expensive than Friends. He hadn't
been getting along very well nt Friends and we consulted friends and
thought that Landon was better.
Mv. Hebert. You put him in a more expensive school?
Mr. Hiss. That is correct.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 963
Mr. Nixon. Just one moment, Mr. Hiss. I want to avoid having to
go into any more of these again.
As a boy, Mr, Hiss, did you have any particular business that you
engaged in?
Mr, Hiss, Yes,
Mr. Nixon. What was j^our business?
Mr. Hiss, I had two businesses. One of wliicli I was most proud was
the delivery of spring water in Baltimore. Baltimore people didn't
think they had very good municipal water,
Mr, Nixon, You had the spring water on your own place?
Mr. Hiss. We had to go out to the park.
Mr. Nixon. The park?
Mr, Hiss. Druid Hill Park is a park in Baltimore where there were
good springs and some of us had water routes and we carried water and
delivered it to customers.
Mr. Hebert. As a child?
Mr. Hiss. Twelve or so.
Mr. Hebert, I didn't know whether he was in the spring-water
business.
Mr. Nixon, As a boy.
Mr. Hiss. We sold spring water.
Mr. Stripling. Is Druid Hill right in the middle of Baltimore?
Mr, Nixon, It is now,
^ Mr. Hiss. It was at the edge of town then and from our house it was
10 or 15 blocks, I have always been very proud of that,
I also raised pigeons and sold squabs, I am afraid in both places
mostly to friends of my family,
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss, I have no further questions at this time. I
might say that as a result of the questions, when we see the cold record,
it presents to the committee a difficult problem again, still a contro-
versy between the two witnesses. It is one which is difficult to resolve
on the basis of third-party evidence, and as it stands at the present
time it is your word against that of Mr. Chambers.
I realize, incidentally, the feeling that you have, which I think is
natural, that your word should be given greater weight than Mr.
Chambers' word.
On the other hand, Mr. Chambers feels the same way because he
feels he volunteered the information.
Mr, Stripling. Could I ask a few questions ?
Mr. Nixon. Yes.
The Chairman. Are you finished with your statement ?
Mr. Stripling. I want to ask some questions before he makes the
statement.
Mr. Nixon. Go ahead.
Mr. Stripling. On this man George Crosley, you say you gave him
this car?
Mr. Hiss. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling, Did you ever go riding with Crosley in this auto-
mobile?
Mr, Hiss. I might very well have,
Mr, Stripling, I mean did you go around with him quite a bit,
take rides?
Mr. Hiss, You mean after I gave it to him did he ever give me a
ride?
964 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Before or after.
Mr. Hiss. I think I drove him from the Hill to the apartment.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever take any trips out of town with George
Crosley ?
Mr. Hiss. No ; I don't think so.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever take him to Pennsylvania?
Mr. Hiss. No. I think I once drove him to New York City when I
was going to make a trip to New York City anyway.
Mr. Nixon. Was Mrs. Hiss along?
Mr. Hiss. That I wouldn't recall. She may have been. I think I
may have given him a lift when I went to New York.
Mr. Stripling. Did you go to Paoli?
Mr. Hiss. If Mrs. Hiss was along ; yes.
The Chairman. Koute No. 202?
Mr. Hiss. Route 202 goes through that part of Pennsylvania, and
that is the route we would take.
Mr. Nixon. Did you ever drive to Baltimore with Crosley?
Mr. Hiss. I don't recall it. I think he moved to Baltimore froiu
here, as a matter of fact, but I don't recall that I ever drove him.
Mr. Nixon. How did you know that ?
Mr. Hiss. I think he told me when he was pulling out. He was in
my apartment until the lease exjiired in September.
Mr. Nixon. What year?
Mr. Hiss. I think it was September 1935 and I think I saw him
several times after that, and I think he had told me he moved from
here to Baltimore.
Mr. Nixon. Even though he didn't pay his rent you saw him several
times ?
Mr. Hiss. He was about to pay it and was going to sell his articles.
He gave me a payment on account once. He brought a rug over
which he said some wealthy patron gave him. I have still got the
damned thing.
Mr. Nixon. Did you ever give him anything?
Mr. Hiss, Never anything but a couple of loans; never got paid
back.
Mr. Nixon. Never gave him anything else ?
Mr. Hiss. Not to my recollection.
Mr. Nixon. Where is he now ?
Mr. Hiss. I have no idea. I don't think I have seen him since
1935.
Mr. Nixon. Have you ever heard of him since 1935 ?
Mr. Hiss. No; never thought- of him again until this morning on
the train.
Mr. Stripling. You wouldn't say positively George Crosley and
this person are the same?
Mr. Hiss. Not positively.
Mr. Stripling. You would not say positively?
Mr. Hiss. 1 think they are not. That would be my best impression
from the photographs.
In thinking this morning what I thought was that Crosley is the
only person I know who has been in my house who knows the lay-out
of any house or apartment I lived in.
Mr. Nixon. He knows the lay-out of only one house ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 965
Mr. Hiss. Only one house.
Mr. Nixon. In one house only?
Mr. Hiss. To my knowledge.
Mr. STRI^LI^^G. Do you have a collection of stuffed birds or any-
thing?
Mr. Hiss. No.
Mr. Striplixg. Pictures of them?
Mr. Hiss. I have bird books with pictures; photographs that I had
taken; no.
Mr. Stripling. Just pictures of different birds not in books?
Mr. Hiss. I have several Audubon prints hanging in my house, of
birds.
The Chairman. They are the finest pictures of birds that have ever
been made; is that correct?
Mr. Hiss. I think so. The most artistic, anyway.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chambers, of course, as I say, was very convincing
in his testimony and you certainly are very convincing in yours.
Now. frankly, the committee has a difficult problem here and I
wonder if under the circumstances for the assistance of the committee
in this matter you would be willing to take a lie-detector test on this.
I might say before you answer, so you will have full knowledge
■of what the committee knows, Mr. Chambers was asked that question
and said he would take a lie detector test.
Mr. Hiss. Shall I answer now ?
Mr. Nixon. Yes.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, several days after I testified two members of
the press told me that there had been a report that the committee
was considering asking various witnesses if they would take a lie
detector test. When I was asked if I had any comment to make on
that, I said I didn't think it was appropriate at the time to make any
comment.
Since then I have talked about that to several friends who I think
are knowledgeable. When I was practicing law actively, quite frankly
we had very little confidence in the so-called lie detector tests. I
would say that I would rather have you ask me formally if you think
]ie detector tests are valuable in terms of who would administer it,
what expert it is, what type of test, because the people I have con-
sulted— and I think I have consulted knowledgeable people — say there
is no such thing; that it is an emotion recording test; that it is not
scientific, and that nobody scientifically competent, including the
Bureau, regards it as a scientific test.
Mr. Nixon. When you speak of asking you formally, what do you
want us to do?
Mr. Hiss. I would like to know who the administrator is, whether
this is being done by someone in the Bureau who is an expert or an
individual so-called expert, what kind of a test it is. In other words,
I don't think I ought to, on the basis of the advice I have had, try
to answer it out of hand until I know and you know.
I would be surprised if this committee would want to rely on some-
thing that isn't scientific.
Mr. Nixon. Certainly. In answer to your question, the committee
has contacted Mr. Leonardo Keeler.
Mr. Hiss. Is he the man from Chicago ?
966 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. Probably the outstanding man in the country. The
test Mr. Keeler has is the polygraph machine. It is the only one, I
think, that has any broad acceptance at all.
I might say also that the polygraph machine is one whose accuracy
is dependent to a great extent upon the type of operator. In ques-
tioning Mr. Keeler about this I said that if we did have the lie detector
test, that he would have to operate it. He agreed. I might say we
have made no arrangements with Mr. Keeler because it is rather an
expensive proposition. When we do make arrangements we will, of
course, have a number of witnesses concerning which contradictory
testimony has come up. We are putting the question to you officially
now and would like for you to give us your' answer as soon as you can.
Mr. Hiss. Would it seem to you inappropriate for me to say that I
would rather have a chance for further consultation before I gave
you the answer? Actually, the people I have conferred with so far
say that it all depends on who reads, that it shows emotion, not truth,
and I am perfectly willing and prepared to say that I am not lacking
in emotion about this business.
I have talked to people who have seen, I think. Dr. Keeler's own
test and that the importance of a question registers more emotion
than anything else. I certainly don't want to duck anything that has
scientific or sound basis. I would like to consult further.
I would like to find out a little more about Dr. Keeler. As I told
you, the people I have consulted said flatly there is no such thing,
that it is not scientifically established.
Mr. Nixon. When could you give a decision on that?
Mr- Hiss. I would hope to consult in part the same people I con-
sulted last week and anyone they suggested.
Mr. Nixon. AVhen could you give a decision?
Mr. Hiss. When is it important to you to know? Would you like
to know tomorrow?
Mr. Nixon. Wednesday.
Mr. Hiss. I will try to let you know Wednesday.
Mr. Nixon. Tomorrow might rush you. Could you know by
Wednesday ?
Mr. Hiss. I certainly ought to be able to make up my mind on the
basis of the questions I ask.
Mr. Nixon. If you do decide tomorrow and let us know, it would
facilitate things, one way or the other. We have Mr. Keeler more or
less standing by. I don't mean he is here, but he has promised to
remain available for 3 or 4 days.
Mr. Hiss. To whom should my reply be addressed?
Mr. Nixon. To the chairman of the committee. I might say also
that the matter of emotion, of course, as you pointed out, enters into
the test. One thing the members of the committee both remarked
about is that Mr. Chambers is also a very emotional man.
Mr. Hiss. Have you ever had any experience with it yourself when
you were practicing, Mr. Nixon?
Mr. Nixon. No ; I have not.
Mr. Hiss. But you do have confidence in it?
Mr. Nixon. Frankly, I have made a study of it in the last week
before I put the question. In fact, for the last 2 weeks I have been
studying it and have been in correspondence with Mr, Keeler.
Mr. Hiss. You do have confidence in it as a device ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 967
Mr. Nixon, I have. Let me say this : I have confidence that it is a
factor which will be helpful in this case. I realize there is no factor
which can be conclusive in this case, and 1 don't pretend that that is
the case, but I do have confidence it would be helpful in this case to
be weiohed with the other facts in this matter.
Mr. Hiss. I will take that into account.
Mr. Nixon. I have no further questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Hebert.
Mr. Hebert, Mr. Hiss, how many children — is it just your brother
and yourself ?
Mr, Hiss, In my family there were five originally. Two are dead.
I have another brother and sister, one surviving older sister and my
brother,
]Mr, Hebert. Where does your sister live ?
Mr. Hiss. She lives in Austin, Tex., department of physical educa-
tion at the university.
IVIr, Hebert, University of Texas ?
Mr, Hiss. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. Where did she live before she went to the University
of Texas?
Mr. Hiss. In Baltimore.
Mr. Hebert. With whom ?
Mr. Hiss. With my mother.
Mr, Hebert, Just your mother and sister ?
Mr, Hiss, Yes, She went straight to Texas, I think, on graduation
from physical training school, may have had one intermediate
position,
Mr. Hebert, What year ?
Mr, Hiss. She is a good deal older than I am, I think she has been
'in Texas about 20 years,
Mr. Hebert, She has been in Texas about 20 years ?
Mr. Hiss. Yes,
Mr. Hebert, Would she have been living in Baltimore in the years
in question with your mother ?
Mr, Hiss, No, definitely no. She was in Texas at that time.
Mr, Hebert, That is all.
The Chairman. Mr, McDowell,
Mr, McDowell, Mr, Chairman, there is something I have been very
anxious to get on the record, and since this is an executive session I
think it is proper.
Do you recall, Mr, Hiss, calling on me last spring ?
Mr, Hiss, I do, indeed.
Mr. McDowell. Would you tell the committee why you called?
Mr. Hiss. The then president or director of the Carnegie Institute
in Pittsburgh, the Institute of Technology, sent word to us in New
York that a derogatory report about a Carnegie Foundation had been
received by this committee, that he thought the appropriate person for
us to talk to if we had anything to say would be Congressman Mc-
Dowell, who was investigating so-called Fascist activities.
I don't recall whether the substance of the charge came to me at
that time, Mr. IMcDowell, or only when I talked to you and you very
frankly told me all about it.
In any event, the facts, as I recall them, were that a charge had
been made that a Carnegie Foundation had made a grant of money
968 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
to one Gerald K. Smith on his own allefjation. He had told that to
intimates. He said he didn't need to worry about money, he had
Carnefjie backino; or a Carnegie grant ; that a priest who was not quite
unfrocked but was disciplined for his associations with Gerald L. K.
Smith, had become penitent under discipline, as a result of discipline,
and had entered, I think, a monastery in Florida, and it was he who
said that Gerald L. K. Smith had told him or had heard it said in his
presence that he received financial backing from a Carnegie Foun-
dation,
I came immediately to see you to see if we could get to the bottom
of it and offered you and the committee full access to all the Carnegie
files. I said I had checked my associates in the Carnegie Foundation
for the Advancement of Teaching, which is a related agency which
makes grants; the Carnegie Corp., which is the largest granting body;
had been through all our own records, though I had only come into the
position in the endowment in 1947; and was absolutely sure that there
had never been any grants by any Carnegie agency to Mr. Gerald L. K,
Smith.
Mr. McDowell. Thank you very much. I wanted that on the
record.
Mr. Hiss. I appreciate very much the coiu'tesy and the completeness
of the information you gave me.
Mr. Nixon. I was going to suggest, Mr. Chairman, that I think the
arrangements should be made now, if possible, for a hearing at which
Mr. Hiss can resolve his own mind as to whether he has seen Mr.
Chambers. I think that is essential because Mr. Hiss has indicated
in his testimony today he is not satisfied from the pictures.
The Chairman. On that point I think we all agree. I believe
though we ought to go into executive session right now and discuss it a
little bit and have Mr. Hiss wait outside for us.
Mr. Hebert. Before you do that, may I ask one more question ?
Mr. Hiss, since this matter has come to public attention and since
you have become cognizant of it, have you made any attempt to check
Mr. Chambers to find out who he is and where he possibly knew you ?
Mr. Hiss. I did consult people in New York to see if there is any
way to find out. The advice I receiA^ed is that it is not appropriate,
desirable, or very feasible for an individual solely for such a personal
reason to attempt, or attempt to have conducted, an investigation;
and so I have not persevered.
Mr. Hebert. By that answer you mean you went to a detective
agency ?
Mr. Hiss. I went to lawyers, counsel.
Mr. Hebert. You went to counsel for that ?
Mr. Hiss. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. You let the matter drop there?
Mr. Hiss. Yes; on receiving their advice.
Mr. Hebert. Can you, searching through your mind, recall or sug-
gest any reason why a man named Whittaker Chambers should give
such testimony involving you, any motive?
Mr. Hiss. I cannot, sir, and I would like to say that this is one of
the things I have puzzled and puzzled with.
Mr. Hebert. Through your connection and association with people
on Time or Life, as you undoubtedly have, did you inquire of
Chambers ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 969
Mr. Hiss. On the way down to the public hearing I ran into an
editor of Fortune whom I know only sliohtly, but the man I was with
knew him very well, and I asked him because I hadn't found anybody
who knew him. I had asked various press people who were asking me
for statements if they knew him, and they did not. I have asked
various friends who knew people on Time if they could find out more
about his personality and what he is like. I haven't heard any reply.
This man on Fortune gave an off-hand reaction.
]\Ir. Hebekt. You just didn't toss it off without trying to find out
about Chambers.
Mr. Nixon. Was Mr. Crosley a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Hiss. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. NixoN. Never discussed it ?
Mr. Hiss. No.
Mr. Nixon. You feel he might be Whittaker Chambers?
Mr. Hiss. I find it diificult to believe. I can't identify him from
the pictures and can't see any motive.
Mr. Nixon. You haven't the slightest idea what became of him?
Mr, Hiss. No ; haven't seen him since 1985.
Mr. Nixon. Where was he working at the time you knew him?
Mr. Hiss. I was working in Washington in the Senate alid he was
liere to get information in order to write articles.
Mr. Nixon. For whom did he work? Who was his employer?
Mr. Hiss. He told me he was a free-lance writer preparing a series
of articles which he had no doubt he would be able to market ; that he
had written for various magazines.
Mr. Nixon. What magazines had he written for?
Mr. Hiss. He told me he had written for American magazine; I
think he told me he had written for Cosmopolitan.
Mr. Nixon. You are sure about his telling you about writing for
American ?
Mr. Hiss. Yes; I am sure of that.
Mr. Nixon. Never indicated where he worked or who he worked for ?
Mr. Hiss. He was a free-lance writer.
Mr. Hebert. Did you ever see his name attached to an article?
Mr. Hiss. He never sold one of the articles.
Mr. Hebert. Did you ever see his name attached to an article?
Mr. Hiss. No.
Mr. Hebert. Never saw anything he wrote?
Mr. Hiss. No.
Mr. Nixon. Did he pay any rent all the time he was in your house ?
Mr. Hiss. My recollection is he paid $15 or $20, and he gave me a
rug, which I have still got.
Mr. Nixon. You had hard words when he left ?
Mr. Hiss. Yes, in the sense that I said, "Let's not talk any more
about your ever paying back. I don't think you ever intend to, and
1 would rather forget all of this, and I think you have simply w^elshed
from the beginning."
Mr. Nixon. In other words, this wasn't sufficient motive
I\Ir. Hiss. I didn't ask him to leave the house, but I practically did,
and haven't seen him since. I made it plain I wouldn't be a sucker.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know his middle initial ?
Mr. Hiss. No ; if I did I don't remember.
970 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. Would you say this would be sufficient motive to do
what Whittaker Chambers has done?
Mr. Hiss. No. That is why I say I can't believe it was the same man.
I can't imagine a normal man holding a grudge because somebody
had stoj^ped being a sucker.
Mr. Stripling. I want to ask you something. This is executive
session and don't be insulted at any of these questions.
You claim that j^ou are a very close friend of Henry Collins.
Mr. Hiss. I think it is fair to say I regard Henry Collins as a close
friend.
Mr. Stripling. I don't recall whether T asked you exactly this ques-
tion, but I think I asked you if Henry Collins was a Communist.
Mr. Hiss. I don't recall exactly what I replied if you did ask it, but
I feel sure I would have replied and I now reply, Not so far as I know.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Hiss, Mr. Collins before the committee the other
day refused to answer the question whether or not he was a member
of the Communist Party on the ground that he might incriminate
himself, and I happen to know pretty conclusively that not only is
Mr. Collins a Communist but he has been a Communist for many
years.
In fact, when he used to work in the AAA he was notorious, notorious
for sitting around talking about communism.
Mr. Hiss. I don't think I ever worked in AAA.
Mr. Stripling. And extolling the Russian system. You claim you
know Lee Pressman. Lee Pressman has been accused of being an
outright card-holding member of the Communist Party in the public
press time and time again and refuses to deny it. The same is true of
John Abt. You know John Abt.
Mr. Hiss. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. And yet you would give us the belief that none of
these people is a Communist. There is no question about John Abt
and I^e Pressman, and in my mind, on Henry Collins.
You are an intelligent person and not naive enough that you wouldn't
know a Communist if you saw one. Furthermore, I read a lot of
Government files from time to time — and I don't say this disparag-
ingly— but I have seen your name for years in Government files as a
person suspected of Communist activity.
Now, there has to be some basis for the thing. Why would Charles
Kramer refuse to say whether he knew you on the ground of self-
incrimination? Why would Henry Collins answer that way? Why
would all these people say that ?
Mr. Hiss. Are you finished ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Hiss. Do you think those are relevant questions to this inquiry ?
Mr. Stripling. I am trying to determine why a man would come
in before a committee of Congress under the penalties of perjury and
just out of the blue make up a story and then have that story check
almost in every minute detail, according to check, and then have
people come in whom we know are Communists and then ask do
they know you, and they refuse to answer. From your testimony
and your appearance I would certainly be given the impression that
you were as far removed from communism and knew no one who
could even be suspected of being a Communist, just absolutely — just
never heard of the word.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 971
Now, we are just trying to get the facts. ^ _ -
Mr. Hiss. INIr. Stripling, that had about 15 questions in it. One
question tliat I tliink I distinctly understood was that you asked me
to testify as to why certain witnesses refused to answer certain ques-
tions, i do not see how I could possibly be expected to be able to
testify on that. I haven't any idea.
Mn Stripling. Skip that one.
Mr. Hiss. You also asked me why my name appeared in various
Oovernment files. I thought that was the implication.
I do not know what was the context in which my name appeared.
The only other occasion except the May 1947 visit to the FBI agents,
the information Mr. Byrnes gave me in March or A^jril of 1946, was
sometime back in, I think, 1938 or 1939 — it may have been as late
as 1940 — I was asked to come to the field' office of the Bureau in
Washington on K Street.
The interrogator prefaced his questions with the statement that he
was proceeding under an act of Congress — I do not remember the
citation.
Mr. Stripling. Hatch Act.
Mr. Hiss. Which provided that the names of all people appearing
in the Dies committee files should be investigated by the FBI and
that an appropriation was made for that purpose, that he was ]Dro-
ceeding under that act.
He asked me a series of questions including whether I had ever
been a member of an organization which, as near as I can recall, he
described as the Washington Committee for Democratic Action. As
far as I knew, that was the first time I had ever heard of that organi-
zation. I testified then and I testify now I was never a member, as
far as I know I was not even on their mailing list.
When you receive a lot of stuff in the mail unsolicited and have to
throw it in the wastebasket, if it comes regularly enough, you are apt
to remember. I don't recall having heard the name.
I also was told that an individual in the Department of Agriculture
back in the early thirties, an old-line civil servant who is now not
living, had accused a whole lot of people over there of being Eeds,
radicals, and so on. I do know that the whole atmosphere of a lot
of new brash people coming into an old-line agency caused a great
deal of friction. I know the particular person I am now referring
to. I would not have accepted that person's judgment as being a
very rational judgment. If that person made a statement about me
and others, it could have been made way back there — this has only
come to my attention quite recently — I have no other way of knowing
why or how my name appeared in any files.
I can say that I have never had the slightest indication from my
superiors that they gave any credence to what you appear to be giving
credence to.
Mr. Stripling. Don't misunderstand me. I didn't say I gave cre-
dence to that. I said I had seen. I would just as soon have this off
the record, if you like.
Mr. Hiss. It can stay on.
Mr. Stripling. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
(A short executive session was taken off the record during which
Mr. Hiss was out of the room.)
972 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. Mr, Hiss, the committee has unanimously decided
to hold a public hearing on Wednesday, August 25, at 10 : 30 a. m.
in the caucus room on the third floor of the Old House Office Building,
at which time you and Whittaker Chambers will be the witnesses and
you will be asked questions in order to determine which one is telling
the truth, and you will have an opportunity to confront one another.
Mr. Hiss. I will be very glad of the chance to confront Mr.
Chambers.
Mr. Nixon. Would you prefer to have it done informally?
Mr. Hiss. My desire is to see the man face to face.
Mr. Stripling. Executive or open ?
Mr. Hiss. It doesn't matter.
Mr. Nixon. Where does it serve your best purpose? You just want
to see the guy ?
Mr. Hiss. It seems to me appropriate that it be done under com-
mittee auspices under the circumstances.
Mr. Nixon. We are honestly trying to get the right way. If you
have a public session, it is a show. Say it will be a meeting on the
25th in this room.
Mr. Hiss. You want me here in this room at 10 : 30 a. m. ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. I am sympathetic to your feelings about not wanting a
big show, but the other witnesses have wanted to confront accusers in
public.
Mr. Hiss. I had not expressed a preference.
Mr. Hp:bert. I wanted to clear that up. Unless you express a pref-
erence I want it public. Is a public meeting all right with you 5
Mr. Hiss. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. I want to be fair with everybody.
The Chairman. You be here at 10 : 15 on that day and we will first
go into executive session with the idea of determining after having
the executive session whether or not we will go into a public hearing.
Mr. Stripling. Can I be heard ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. I think the committee's concern is to determine who
is telling the truth, and a public session — this is a kind of unprecedent-
ed proposition, and if you say it is going to be a public session, you
know it will be ballyhooed into a circus.
From everybody's standpoint, I think it would be better
Mr. Hiss. May I speak?
Mr. Stripling. Yes. The committee could exercise much better
judgment by bringing them in in executive session. If each wants
counsel, bring them in. Let's arrive at the facts. The committee
could announce whatever action it wants, but I don't think a public
session would add anything.
Mr. Hiss. I want to be clear that I am not asking for an executive
session as opposed to public. As far as consideration to me after
what has been done to my feelings and my reputation, I think it would
be like sinking the Swiss Navy. No public show could embarrass me
5 now. I am asking to see this man.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have a preference? '
Mr. Hiss. I think it is for the committee to decide.
Mr. Nixon. Do you care ?
Mr. Hiss. I think I prefer a public session.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 973
Mr. Hebert. That is the reverse.
Mr. Hiss. I don't think I said that.
The Chairman. Which do yon want ?
]\Ir. Nixon. Let him think it over.
Mr. Hiss. May I try to give it
Mr. Nixon. We will also give Mr. Chambers an opportnnity.
Mr. Hiss. Fnrther consideration?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Just say that it will be arranged at that time, that no
decision has been made as to the type of hearing.
Mr. Hiss. In any event, you want me here at 10: 15 a. m. in this
room.
May I ask a question about the press ?
The Chairman. Yes. I want to tell you something. Every person
in this room with the exception of yourself has stood up and raised
his riofht hand and taken an oath that he will not divulge one single
word of testmiony given here this aiternoon, questions asked, so I
am going to ask you to take the same oath.
Mr. Nixon. No ; that is up to him.
Mr. Hebert. He can do Avhat he wants to do.
Mr. Hiss. I have thought of this problem and wanted to raise it
specifically. I wanted to ask the committee's views as to what they
preferred. I will be guided as far as I think I honestly can in terms
of my own self-protection by wdiat I take now to be the committee's
views that this is executive.
The Chairman. We are not going to divulge anything.
Mr. Nixon. There is one thing I think should be done in this case,
and I see no reason why it shouldn't be done. I think Mr. Hiss shoulcl
be given a copy of the testimony for his own use.
jMr. Hiss. I would like to have it.
Mr. Hebert. I agree.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Nixon. Also I made a suggestion before that only two copies
of this testimony be made, one for Mr. Hiss and one to be delivered
to the committee clerk. Mr. Hiss can have it and use it any way you
like for your purposes.
Mr. Hebert. Supplementing that, the reporter has been instructed
that he personally is to transcribe this testimony taken here today,
that nobody else is to see it, not his office or anybody else like that,
and only one copy to you and one to us. We have sworn ourselves
to secrec3\ You are on your own,
Mr. Nixon. You would have to be.
Mr. Hiss. I would like to say that I have no intention of making
any public statement in terms of self-protection. I don't want to
make a commitment that I won't because stories have appeared in the
press.
Mr. Nixon. You might have discussed it with your counsel, for
example. What arrangements can be made for the appearance of
Mrs. Hiss? Would any time be convenient between now and next
Wednesday ?
Mr. Hiss. I think I should try to reach her on the telephone.
Mr. Nixon. No hurry, but we would like to do that before the public
session on Wednesday.
Mr. Stripling. Can't we arrange it somewhere in the East ?
974 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. New York?
Mr. Stripling. Is that all right ?
Mr. Hiss. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Absolutely no publicity.
Mr. Nixon. We don't want it here.
Mr. Stripling. Is that agreeable?
Mr. Hiss. Certainly.
Mr. Stripling. That Mrs. Hiss be heard in absolutely executive
session.
Mr. Hiss. Certainly. Thank you very much for your courtesies.
The Chairman. Thank you for coming, and we will see you August
25. .
(Whereupon, at 5 : 30 p. m., the executive session was concluded.)
HEiKINGS KEriARDmrx COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
TUESDAY, AUGUST 17, 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Special Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
New York, N. Y.
executive session ®
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 5 : 35 p. m., in room
1400 Hotel Commodore, New York City, Hon. John McDowell
presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives John McDowell, J.
Parnell Thomas (chairman of the full committee) , and Richard M.
Nixon.
Staff members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator;
William A. Wheeler, Louis J. Russell, Donald T. Appell, investi-
gators; and Benjamin Mandel, director of research for the committee.
Mr. ]\IcDowell. The record will show that this is a subcommittee
of the Committee on Un-American Activities sitting now in the city
of New York in the Hotel Commodore. Those present are Mr. Nixon
and Mr. McDowell.
The first witness will be Mr. Alger Hiss.
Mr. Hiss, will you please take the oath.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you shall give this committee
will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mr. Hiss. I do.
]\Ir. McDowell. Thank you, sir. You may smoke and be com-
fortable.
TESTIMONY OF ALGER HISS (ACCOMPANIED BY CHAELES DOLLARD,
IN CAPACITY OF A FRIEND)
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Nixon, before you begin questioning
Mr. Hiss, would you have your friend or your counsel identify
himself ?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Charles Dollard, who is a friend of mine. He is not
a lawyer. He is of the Carnegie Corp. with offices at 552 Fifth Avenue,
where I also have mine.
Mr. Stripling. The purpose of the meeting is for the committee to
continue to determine the truth or falsity of the testimony which has
* Testimony taken in executive session and released during the public hearing, August 25,
1948.
975
976 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
been fjiven by Mr. Whittaker Chambers. Do you want to proceed,
Mr. Nixon?
Mr. Nixon, Yes. It is quite apparent at this state in the testimony,
as you indicated yesterday, that the case is dependent upon the ques-
tion of identity. We have attempted to establisli the identity through
pliotographs of Mr. Chambers and that has been inadequate for that
purpose. Today, we thought that since you had in your testimony
raised the possibility of a third party who might be involved in this
case in some way and had described him at some length to the com-
mittee that it would be well to, at the earliest possible time, determine
whether the third party is different from the two parties or the same
one, and so consequently we have asked Mr. Chambers to be in New
York at the same time so that you can have the opportunity to see him
and make up your own mind on that point.
Mr. Hiss. May I interrupt at this point, because I take it this
will take more than 10 or 15 minutes. Would it be possible for one
of the members of the committee to call the Harvard Club and leave
word that I won't be there for a 6 o'clock appointment ?
Mr. McDowell. I would suggest it won't take much more time
than that, but you certainly may.
Mr. Nixon. The purpose of this hearing is for the purpose of
identification only, and then if there is any question of identification,
to go into additional questions.
Mr. McDowell. There is a telephone, I believe, in the room here.
Anytime you want to call, you may.
Mr. DoLLARD. I can make the call.
Mr. Hiss. Islaj I also make a statement before you begin?
Mr. McDowell. Certainly.
Mr. Hiss. I would like the record to show that on my way down-
town from my uptown office, I learned from the press of the death of
Harry White, which came as a great shock to me, and I am not sure
that i feel in the best possible mood for testimony. I do not for a
moment want to miss the opportunity of seeing Mr. Chambers. I
merely wanted the record to show that.
I would like to make one further comment. Yesterday, I think I
witnessed — in any event, I was told that those in the room were going
to take an oath of secrecy. I made some comments before I answered
certain questions of Mr. Nixon which I had not intended as a re-
flection on the committee, but which some members of the com-
mittee thought implied that. I was referring merely to the possi-
bility of leakage of information. I would like this record to show
at this stage that the first thing I saw in the morning paper, the
Herald Tribune, was a statement that the committee yesterday had
asked me if I would submit to a lie-detector test.
I would also like the record to show at this point that on my way
down from my uptown office to keep this appointment after I got Mr.
McDowell's telegram, I read in the papers that it was understood
that in the coui'se of my testimony yesterday the committee asked me,
the subcommittee asked me, if I could arrange to have Mrs. Hiss be
examined privately. You will recall, and I hoj^e the record will show,
that Mr. Nixon assured me with great consideration that you desired
to talk to Mrs. Hiss without any publicity. This was less than 24
hours after you had been so considerate.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 977
There were other statements in the press which I read coming
down which referred to other bits of my testimony which could only
have come from the committee. Tliey did not come from me.
I would like the record to show that is why I asked if I could bring
Mr. Bollard, a personal friend, to he with me at this particular time.
]Mr. Nixon. In that connection, Mr. Hiss, I might suggest that in
order to satisfy your own mind as to how that information may have
gotten into the press that you get in toucli with Mr. Carl Levin, the
coi-respondent for the New York Herald Tribune, who wrote the
story.
Mr. Hiss. I have no reason to get in touch with Mr. Carl Levin.
The assurances 1 had came from tlie committee.
Mr. Nixon. I suggest you do so. because I think you will find that
Mr. Levin's information is that he obtained the information from
sources outside the committee and outside the connnittee staff, and I
can assure you that no member of this connnittee or no member of the
staff discussed the matter with Mr. Levin at all. That was the only
source of this information.
Mv. Hiss. Mr. Nixon. I didn't say anybody discussed it with Mr.
Levin. I said someone must have given information. How Mr.
Levin got it, I do not know. I said it did not come from me as a
source, either directly or indirectly. I don't want to say any more
about it. but like the record to show.
Mr. McDowell. The Chair would like to say something. I, too,
was greatly disturbed when I read the morning paper. Obviously,
there was a leak, because the story that appeared in the various papers
I read was part of the activities of yesterday afternoon. I have no
idea how this story got out. In my own case. I very carefully guarded
myself last night, saw and talked to no one except my wife in Pitts-
burgh. It is regrettable and unfortunate.
Further than that, I don't know what else to say other than if it was
an employee of the committee, and I should discover it, he will no
longer be an employee of the committee. As a Member of Congress,
there is nothing I can do about that. It is a regrettable thing, and I
join you in feeling rather rotten about the whole thing.
Mr. Hiss. I didn't mean to make any charges but meant to state
certain facts which have occurred which I think have a bearing on
the reason I made the statements I made to the committee yesterday
before I went on with certain parts of my testimony.
Mr. McDowell. I want to assure Mr. Dollard he is very welcome.
Mr. NixoN. Mr. Russell, will you bring Mr. Chambers in?
Mr. Russell. Yes.
(Mr. Russell leaves room and returns accompanied by Mr.
Chambers.)
Mr. Nixon. Sit over here, Mr. Chambers.
Mr. Chambers, will you please stand?
And will you please stand, Mr. Hiss?
Mr. Hiss, the man standing here is Mr. Whittaker Chambers. I
ask you now if you have ever known that man before.
Mr. Hiss. May I ask him to speak?
Will you ask him to sa}^ something?
Mr. Nixon. Yes.
80408—48— — 31
978 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Chambers, will you tell us your name and your business?
Mr. Chambers. My name is Whittaker Chambers.
(At this point, Mr. Hiss walked in the direction of Mr. Chambers.)
Mr. Hiss. Would you mind opening j^our mouth Avider?
Mr. Chambers. My name is Whittaker Chambers.
Mr. Hiss. I said, would you open your mouth?
You know Avhat I am referring to, Mr. Nixon,
Will you go on talking ?
Mr. Chambers. I am senior editor of Time magazine.
Mr. Hiss. May I ask whetlier his voice, when he testified before^
was comparable to this?
Mr. Nixon. His voice?
Mr. Hiss. Or did he talk a little more in a lower key ?
Mr. McDowell. I would say it is about the same now as we have
heard.
Mr. Hiss. Would you ask him to talk a little more?
Mr. Nixon. Read something, Mr. Chambers. I will let you read
from
Mr. Hiss. I think he is George Crosley, but I would like to hear
him talk a little longer.
Mr. McDow^ELL. Mr. Chambers, if you would be more comfortable,,
you may sit down.
Mr. Hiss. Are you George Crosley?
Mr. Chambers. Not to my knowledge. You are Alger Hiss, I be-
lieve.
Mr. Hiss. I certainly am.
Mr. Chambers. That was my recollection, (Reading:)
Since June
Mr. Nixon (interposing). Just ojie )noment. Since some repartee
goes on between these two people, I think Mr. Chambers should be
sworn.
Mr. Hiss. That is a good idea.
Mr. McDowell. You do soleninly swear, sir, that the testimony
you shall give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Chambers, I do.
Mr. Nixon, Mr, Hiss, may I say something? I suggested that he
be sworn, and when I say something like that I want no interruptions
from you.
Mr. Hiss, Mr, Nixon, in view of what happened yesterday, I think
there is no occasion for you to use that tone of voice in speaking to me,
and I hope the record will show what T have just said,
Mv. Nixon, The record shows everything that is being said here
today,
Mr, Stripling. You were going to read,
Mr, Chambers (reading from Newsweek magazine) :
Tobin for Labor. Since .June, Harry S. Ti-uman liad been peddling the labor
secretaryshi]) left vacant by Lewis B. Scbwellenbar-ji's death in hore of gaining
the maxinuim political advantage from the appointment.
Mr, Hiss, May I interrupt?
Mr, McDowell, Yes.
Mr, Hiss, The voice sounds a little less resonant than the voice that
I rerall of the man I knew as George Crosley. The teeth look to me
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 979
as though either they have been improved upon or that there has been
considerable dental work done since I knew George Crosley, which
was some years ago.
I believe I am not prepared without further checking to take an
absolute oath that he must be George Crosley.
Mr. Nixon. May I ask a question of Mr. Chambers ?
Mr. Hiss. I would like to ask Mr. Chambers, if I may.
Mr. Nixon. I will ask the questions at this time.
Mr. Chambers, have you had any dental work since 1934 of a sub-
stantial nature '.
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; I have.
Mr. Nixon. What type of dental work?
Mr. Chambers. I have had some extractions and a plate.
Mr. Nixon. Have you had any dental work in the front of your
mouth ''.
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. What is the nature of that work?
Mr. Chambers. That is a i^late in place of some of the upper
dentures.
Mr. Nixon. I see.
Mr. Hiss. Could you ask him the name of the dentist that performed
these things ? Is that appropriate ?
Mr. Nixon. Yes. What is the name?
Mr. Chambers. Dr. Hitchcock. Westminster, Md.
Mr. Hiss. That testimonj' of Mr. Chambers, if it can be believed,
would tend to substantiate my feeling that he represented himself to
me in 1984 or 1935 or thereabout as George Crosley, a free lance writer
of articles for magazines.
I would like to find out from Dr. Hitchcock if what he has just said
is true, because I am relying partly, one of my main recollections of
Crosley was the poor condition of his teeth.
Mr. Nixon. Can you describe the condition of your teeth in 1934?
Mr. Chambers. Yes. They were in very bad shape.
Mr. Nixon. The front teeth were?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; I think so.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Nixon. Excuse me. Before we leave the teeth, Mr. Hiss, do
you feel that j^ou would have to have the dentist tell you just what
he did to the teeth before you could tell anything about this man?
Mr. Hiss. I would like a few more questions asked.
I didn't intend to say anything about this, because I feel very
strongly that he is Crosley. but he looks very dift'erent in girth and in
other appearances — hair, forehead, and so on, particularly the jowls.
Mr. Nixon. What was Crosley's wife's name?
Mr. Hiss. I don't think 1 recall.
Mr. Nixon. You did testify that she on several occasions was in your
home overnight.
Mr. Hiss. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. And that you have ridden with her in a car as well as
with him.
Mr. Hiss. I don't recall testifying to that.
Mr. Nixon. Do you testify she didn't ?
Mr. Hiss. I don't recall.
980 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. But she did stay overnight in your home on several
occasions ?
Mr. Hiss. She did. I don't think I said several occasions.
Mr. Nixon. How many times did you say ?
Mr. Hiss. My recollection is that at the time George Crosley sub-
rented my apartment on Twenty-ninth Street his wife and he and
infant spent two or three or four consecutive nights in my house
because the van had not come with their furniture, and we left only
certain pieces of furniture behind to accommodate them.
Mr. NixoN. In regard to the rental agreement that was entered into
with Mr. Crosley, do you recall approximately the rental that was
charged and agreed to ?
Mr. Hiss. My recollection is that I said I would be glad to let Jiim
have the apartment for the cost to me. It was a rather moderate
rental.
Mr. NixoN. Could you say within certain limits ?
Mr. Hiss. My recollection — I can't remember just what I paid for
the apartment that far back — my recollection is it was under $75
a month. It was a very reasonable rental. That is one of the reasons
1 had taken it.
Mr. NixoN. For how long was this rental agreement ?
Mr. Hiss. I think I went into this yesterday in the testimonj^
Sometime in the spring, according to my recollection, of 1934.
Ml*. Nixon. Or did you say 1935?
Mr. Hiss. I am looking at notes I made, trying to remember the
dates. Sometime in the spring of 1935 I leased the house on P Street.
Having both a house and an apartment on my hands, I was looking
for a way of disposing of the apartment on sublease, and the occasion
of one of the talks I had with Crosley, he said he was planning to
spend the summer in Washington carrying on the researches he had
been doins in the field of the Munitions Committee investigations.
I asked him if he would like to sublet my apartment during that
period of time, that it was not too cool, but that it was up on a hill
and had a very decent location as Washington goes, that I would let
him have it for the cost to me. In the course of the negotiation he
i-eferred to the fact that he also wanted an automobile.
Mr. Nixon. Hom' many months, Mr. Hiss, approximately, was that?
Mr. Hiss. Just the summer months.
Mr. Nixon. Three months?
Mr. Hiss. I don't remember how long the lease ran. I think to
September. Maybe it ran to October. I think this conversation
probably took place in June.
Mr. Nixon. When did your lease on this apartment run out?
Mr. Hiss. I think in the fall, September or October, and I had sev-
eral months still to go after the time I had taken the other place.
Mr. Nixon. You think this lease on the apartment ran out in the
fall?
Mr. Hiss. That is my best recollection.
Mr. Nixon. You are testifying, as I understand, that the lease to
Mr. Crosley was for the three summer months approximately.
Mr. Hiss. As long as he wanted to stay during the summer period
while I still had the use of that apartment!
Mr. Nixon. It was beyond the month of Jul}^? Did it include the
month of July, do you know ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 981
Mr. Hiss. I think it inchided July and August.
Mr. Nixon. You say it did include July and August?
Mr. Hiss. Yes. We are talking about something that occurred 13
years ago. It is my best recollection.
Mr. Nixon. I understand. Was it a lease for longer than 2 months?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, I have testified that I think it took the sum-
mer months. It might have been June, July, August, and September.
It depends on how long I had the disposition of the apartment.
Mr. Nixon. Then the total rental value for the period was, if it
were for 2 months, it would have been approximately $150 ; 3 months,
approximately $225.
Mr. Hiss. It was contingent upon the number of months he would
occupy the remaining unexpired term under my lease.
Mr. Nixon. How long did he stay there ?
Mr. Hiss. As far as I know, he stayed there all summer. He cer-
tainly never said he didn't.
Mr. NixoN. Your lease did not run out after the end of the summer?
Mr. Hiss. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. He didn't stay there after that?
Mr. Hiss. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Nixon, Did he ever pay any rent at all?
Mr. Hiss. My recollection is that he paid no cash, that he once
paid in kind.
Mr. Nixon. No cash at all ?
Mr. Hiss. He also borrowed some cash in addition.
Mr. Nixon. How much did he borrow, approximately ?
]\Ir. Hiss. I don't think it got over $o5 or $40 in different transac-
tions, not at all at once. I hope it didn't.
Mr. Nixon. Did you enter into a written contract ?
Mr. Hiss. I think it was oral. It wasn't easy to sublet an apart-
ment during the summer in those days in Washington.
Mr. Nixon. How did you first meet Mr. Crosley ?
Mr. Hiss. My best recollection — I was thinking over this yesterday
morning on the way down to the committee hearing — is that Mr.
Crosley came into my office in the Senate Office Building, where I was
serving as legal assistant to the Senate Munitions Committee, as a
pressman making inquiries about the investigation, as many dozens
of other press people, authors, students, researchers did.
Mr. Nixon. That is the first time vou had ever seen him in your
life?
Mr. Hiss. The first time I had ever seen him.
Mr. Nixon. Did you immediatelv discuss this rental contract?
Mr. Hiss. No.
Mr. Nixon. The agreement that vou were entering into?
Mr. Hiss. No.
Mr. Nixox. When did that first come into the conversation?
Mr. Hiss. I think that came into the conversation in the spring of
1935 after I knew that I was going to have a house as well as an
apartment.
Mr. Nixox. How long had you known Mr. Crosley ?
Mr. Hiss. I don't remember which stage of the Munitions Com-
niittee investigation I first met Mr. Crosley and haven't even had
time to check when I actually went to the Hill. I think it was in the
fall of 1934, but I am not sure.
982 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. You had known Mr. Crosley, your testimony is, for
about 8 months before you entered into this agreement ?
Mr. Hiss. Five or six month?*.
Mr. Nixon. Then you had had several conversations with him
during that period?
Mr. Hiss. I think I must have seen him as often as I did any other
newspaperman who was particuhirly interested. I think I saw him
10 or 11 times.
Mr. Nixon. Never saw him socially during that period ?
Mr. Hiss. Never saw him socially.
Mr. Nixon. Only in the course of your business ?
Mr. Hiss. Only in the course of my business.
Mr. Nixon. Then in 1985, the spring of 1935. Mr. Crosley discussed
this matter of getting your apartment for the summer with you?
Mr. Hiss. Would you like me to state how I think it originated?
Mr. Nixon. Certainly.
Mr. Hiss. It originated by his saying he was planning to spend the
summer months in Wash. ington to complete his research and investi-
gation of the series of articles which he had been engaged upon at
the time I first met him.
Mr. Nixon. Would you refresh me on where this apartment was ?
Mr. Hiss. This was on Twenty-ninth Street.
Mr. Nixon. This is the Twenty-ninth Street apartment?
Mr. Hiss. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. And from that apartment you had moved to P Street ?
Mr. Hiss. 2905 P Street.
Mr. Nixon. House ?
Mr. Hiss. House.
Mr. Nixon. That was a house?
Mr. Pliss. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. Go ahead w^ith your recollection.
Mr. Hiss. You asked me how it originated.
Mr. NixoN. I understand.
Mr. Hiss. That I described. What else did you want ?
Mr. Nixon. That completes
Mr. Hiss. As to how it originated. He mentioned he was planning
to spend the summer months consistently in Washington. My under-
standing had been before that he came down to Washington from
New York for various hearings of the committee, for talking to the
staff, for getting material, and he said he intended to spend the
summer in Washington completing his researches and was looking
for a place to live, and I said I happened to have a place I would be
very glad to get rid of.
Mr. Nixon. So you agreed with him that he could move into your
apartment for 3 months approximately?
Mr. Hiss. That is correct.
Mr. NixoN. Which would be for a consideration of, say, $225,
roughly ?
Mr. Hiss. Whatever the actual cost to me was.
Mr. Nixon. And then there was some conversation about a car.
What was that ?
Mr. Hiss. There was. Mr. Crosley said that while he was in Wash-
ington he wondered if he could get a rented car or something, because
he would like to have it while his family were with him, get out week
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 983
ends, sometliin": like that. I said, "You came to just the right place.
I would be very glad to throw a car in because I have been trying to
get rid of an old car which we have kept solely for sentimental reasons
which we couldn't get anything on for trade-in or sale." I would be
very glad to let him have the car because we wanted somebody to make
real use of it. We had had it sitting on the city streets because we
had a new one.
Mr. Nixon. It was a '29 Ford?
Mr. Hiss. One of the first model A Fords.
Mr. Nixon. The year of this transaction would be 1935 ?
Mr. Hiss. That would be my best recollection.
Mr. NixoN. A 6-year-old Ford?
Mr. Hiss. That is right.
Mr, Nixon. You just gave him the car with this $225 rental?
Mr. Hiss. As part of the total contract. That is my best recollec-
tion.
Mr. Nixon. The rent was simply the going rate, as you indicated?
Mr. Hiss. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. And you just threw in this 6-year-old car with it?
Mr. Hiss. That is my best recollection. I don't think it figured as
a financial element in the transaction.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know the Blue Book value of a 1929 Ford in
1935?
Mr. Htss. I certainly don't. I know what the going rate was with
sellers of new cars. I think the most I had ever been offered for it was
$25 or $30 at that time, a few months before that.
Mr. Nixon. So you gave him this car.
Mr. Hiss. As part of the whole transaction.
Mr. Nixon. Then before he moved into the apartment I understand
that^you allowed him and his wife to stay with you in your home?
Mr. Hiss. My recollection of that — and this is repetitious
Mr. NixoN. We are repeating it for his benefit as well as to see if he
can recall this incident.
Mr. Hiss. I am glad he has no other way of finding out about it, Mr.
Nixon.
My recollection on that point is that INIr. Crosley said since he was
only coming down for the summer, he didn't want to bring very many
things. I said since we had rented a furnished house, w^e had more
furniture than we really needed. In fact, one of the rooms in 2905 P
Street was perpetually used as a storeroom for furniture while we were
there.
We left several pieces of furniture in the apartment for several weeks
or months, I don't remember how long, and I don't remember which
pieces, but there was a bed and a bureau and a table and a couple of
chairs.
When the day came when Mr. Crosley was supposed to move in, his
moving van hadn't arrived but his wife and baby had. We put them
up the way one would be apt to try to be helpful to people you were
subletting. You develop a kind of pseudo-friendliness over a trans-
action of that kind.
]Mr. Crosley, his wife, and infant were put up in my house for 2 or 3
days while the moving van was coming: it may have'been 4, may have
been 2. It was more than one night. I imagine my wife would testify
it seemed even longer than that.
984 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. Were those the only two apartments in which Mr.
Crosley saw you?
Mr. Hiss. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
Mr. Nixon. When did you see him after that period of the rental
agreement ?
Mr. Hiss. I saw him several times in the fall of 1935, as I recall it.
Mr. Nixon. What were the occasions of those visits?
Mr. Hiss. Some occasions — he would call — no; I think he came to
my house once or twice after that because of this establishment of a
personal relationship. I remember on one occasion he came and
brought me a rug which was part payment. He hadn't yet sold his
articles, he was hard up, he was going to make payment. My recol-
lection is I never got paid a single red cent in currency.
Mr. Nixon. What kind of a rug was it?
Mr. Hiss. It was about the color of this rug [indicating rug on
floor]. I still have it. A fairly sizable rug. My recollection is Mr.
Crosley said some wealthy patron had bestowed it upon him as a gift.
It was not a very useful rug. It had been used in the nursery. It is
in my youngest son's room now, he still being almost of nursery age.
He was 7 on the day I testified publicly before your committee.
Mr. Nixon. On these other occasions on which Mr. Crosley stayed
with you ; did he ever stay overnight ?
Mr. Hiss. I wouldn't be sure of my recollection. It is quite possible
he may have said that he couldn't get a resei-vation. Mr. Crosley was
apparently in the habit of having difficulties. He may very well have
said that he couldn't get a hotel reservation, could I put him up. Mr.
Crosley, not being someone who paid his debts, may very well have
added to his obligations in that way. That I wouldn't be sure of.
Mr. Nixon. You testified on one occasion you took him on a trip, as
I understand it, ferried him to New York.
Mr. Hiss. My recollection is that on one occasion when my wife and
I were going to drive to New York in any event, Mr. Crosley asked for
a ride. I may have mentioned when I was talking to him that I was
going to New York, or he may have said he Avas going to New^ York,
and I said so was I.
My recollection is I drove him to New York on one occasion.
Whether my wife was present or not, I am not sure. I rather think
she may have been. I would have to ask her and I haven't asked her.
Mr. Nixon. Was that after the time of this rental agreement ?
Mr. Hiss. I am afraid I can't recall.
Mr. Nixon. No further questions of Mr. Hiss at this time.
Mr. Stripling. Mi-. Hiss, you say that person you knew as George
Crosley, the one feature which you must have to check on to identify
him is the dentures.
Mr. Hiss. May I answer that my own way rather than iust "Yes"'
or "No"? .) J J
Mr. Stripling. Well, now, I would like to preface whatever you
are going to say by what I say first.
I certainly gathered the impression when Mr. Chambers walked in
this room and you walked over and examined him and asked him to
open his mouth, that you w^ere basing your identification purely on
what his upper teeth might have looked like.
Now, here is a person that you knew for several months at least.
You knew him so well that he was a guest in your home.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 985
Mr. Hiss. Would you-
Mr. Stripling. I would like to complete my statement — that he
was a guest in your home, that you gave him an old Ford automobile,
and permitted him to use, or you leased him your apartment and in
this, a very important confrontation, the only thing that you have to
check on is this denture ; is that correct ?
There is nothing else about this man's features which you could
definitely say, "This is the man I knew as George Crosley," that you
have to rely entirely on this denture; is that your position?
Mr. Hiss. Is your preface through ? My answer to the question you
have asked is this :
From the time on Wednesday, August 4, 1948, when I was able to
get hold of newspapers containing photographs of one Whittaker
Chambers, I was struck by a certain familiarity in features. When I
testified on August 5 and was shown a photograph by you, Mr. Strip-
hng, there was again some familiarity features. I could not be sure
tJiat I had never seen the person whose photograph you showed me.
1 said I would want to see the person.
The photographs are rather good photographs of Whittaker Cham-
bers as I see Whittaker Chambers today. I am not given on impor-
tant occasions to snap judgments or simple, eiisy statements. 1 am
confident that George Crosley had notably bad teeth. I would not
call George Crosley a guest in my house. I have explained the circum-
stances. If you choose to call him a guest, that is your affair.
Mr. Stripling. I am willing to strike the word "guest." He was in
your house.
Mr. Hiss. I saw him at the time I was seeing hundreds of people.
Since then I have seen thousands of people. He meant nothing to me
except as one I saw under the circumstances I have described.
My recollection of George Crosley, if this man had said he was
Oeorge Crosley. I would have no difficulty in identification. He de-
nied it right here.
I would like and asked earlier in this hearing if I could ask some
further questions to help in identification. I was denied that.
Mr. Stripling. I think you should be permitted
Mr. Hiss. I was denied that right. I am not, therefore, able to
take an oath that this man is George Crosley. I have been testifying
about George Crosley. Whether he and this man are the same or
whether he has means of getting information from George Crosley
about my house, I do not know. He may have had his face lifted.
Mr. Stripling. The witness says he was denied the right to ask
this witness questions. I believe the record will show you stated "at
this time." I think he should be permitted to ask the witness ques-
tions now or any other motion should be granted which will permit
him to determine whether or not this is the individual to whom he
is referring.
Mr. Hiss. Right. I would be very happy if I could pursue that.
Do I have the Chair's pennission ?
Mr. McDowrxL. The Chair will agree to that.
Mr. Hiss. Do I have Mr. Nixon's permission.
Mr. Nixon. Yes.
Mr. McDowell. Here is a very difficult situation.
986 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. The only suggestion I would make in fairness to Mr.
Chambers is that he should also be given the opportunity to ask Mr.
Hiss any questions.
Mr. McDowell. Of course.
Mr. Hiss. I will welcome that.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chambers, do you have any objection?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. Hiss. Did you ever go under the name of George Crosley?
Mr. Chambers. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Hiss. Did you ever sublet an apartment on Twenty-ninth
Street from me ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; I did not.
Mr. Hiss. You did not ?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr, Hiss. Did you ever spend any time with your wife and child
in an apartment on Twenty-ninth Street in Washington when I was
not there because I and my family were living on P Street?
Mr. Chambers. I most certainly did.
Mr. Hiss. You did or did not ?
Mr. Chambers. I did.
Mr. Hiss. Would you tell me how you reconcile your negative
answers with this affirmative answer?
Mr. Chambers. Very easily, Alger. I was a Communist and you
were a Communist.
Mr. Hiss. Would you be responsive and continue with your answer?
Mr. Chambers. I do not think it is needed.
Mr. Hiss. That is the answer.
Mr. Nixon. I w^ill help you with the answer. INIr. Hiss. The ques-
tion, Mr. Chambers, is, as I understand it, that Mr. Hiss cannot under-
stand how you would deny that you were George Crosley and yet admit
that you spent time in his apartment. Now would you explain the
circumstances? I don't want to put that until Mr. Hiss agrees that
is one of his questions.
Mr. Hiss. You have the privilege of asking any questions you want.
1 think that is an accurate phrasing.
Mr. Nixon. Go ahead.
Mr. Chambers. As I have testified before, I came to Washington
as a Communist functionary, a functionary of the American Com-
munist Party. I was connected with the underground group of which
Mr. Hiss was a member. Mr. Hiss and I became friends. To the best
of my knowledge, INIr. Hiss himself suggested that I go there, and I
accepted grateful 1 v.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Nixon. Just a moment. How long did you stay there?
Mr. Chambers. My recollection was about 3 weeks. It may have
been longer. I brought no furniture, I might add.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Chairman, I don't need to ask Mr. Whittaker Cham-
bers any more questions. I am now perfectly prepared to identify this
man as George Crosley.
Mr. Nixon. Would you spell that name?
Mr. Hiss. C-r-o-s-l-e-y.
Mr. Nixon. You are sure of one "s" ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 987
Mr. Hiss. That is my recollection. I have a rather good visual
memory, and my recollection of his spelling of his name is C-r-o-s-l-e-y.
I don't think that would change as much as his appearance.
Mr. STiurLixG. You will identify him positively now?
Mr. Hiss. I will on the basis of what he has just said positively
identify him without further questioning as George Crosley,
Mr. Stripling. Will you produce for the committee three people
who will testify that they knew him as George Crosley?
jNIr. Hiss. I will if it is possible. Why is that a question to ask me?
I will see what is possible. This occurred in 1985. The only people
that I can think of who would have known him as George Crosley with
certainty would have been the people who were associated with me in
the Nye committee.
Mr. Stripling. Can you name three people whom we can subpena
who can identify him as George Crosley?
Mr. Hiss. I am afraid I will have to confer with the individual
members. The people, as I recall them, wlio were on that staff — and
they were in and out of Washington constantly — were Mr. Raushen-
bush. I would like to consult Steve Raushenbiish. I don't know
whether Crosley ever called on him.
Mr. Nixon. Where is he now, Mr. Hiss?
Mr. Hiss. I don't know.
Mr. Stripling. He is in Washington.
Mr. Hiss. Robert Wohlford was one of the investigators.
JNIr. Nixon. Do you know where he is ?
Mr. Stripling. Department of Justice.
Mr. Hiss. I don't remember the name of the very efficient secretary
to Mr. Raushenbush. Miss Elsie GuUender. I think her name was.
Do you know the whereabouts of jNIiss Elsie Gullender? If his first
call was at the central office and he was referred to me. Miss Gullender
might remember him. She saw many, many people. If his first call
was directly to me, as the press had a perfect right to come to any of
us, directly and individually, and as the legal assistant, as the counsel,
I shared seeing the press with Mr. Raushenbush ; and on the particular
matters where I was the investigator and counsel presenting the case,
I saw practically all the press. In the cases he was handling, he saw
practically all the press.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss, another point that I want to be clear on, Mr.
Chambers said he wasa Communist and that j^ou were a Communist.
]\Ir. Hiss. I heard him.
Mr. Nixon. Will you tell the committee Avhether or not during this
period of time that you knew him. which included periods of 3 nights.
or 2 or 3 nights, in which he stayed overnight and one trip to New
York, from any conversation you ever had any idea that he might be a
Communist?
Mr. Hiss. I certainly didnt.
Mr. Nixon. You never discussed politics?
Mr. Hiss. Oh, as far as I recall his conversations — and I may be
confusing them with a lot of other conversations that went on in 1934
and 1935 — politics were discussed quite frequently.
May I just state for the record that it was not the habit in Washing-
ton in those days, when particularly if a member of the press called on
988 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
you, to ask him before you had further conversation whether or not he
was a Communist. It was a quite different atmosphere in Washington
then than today. I had no reason to suspect George Crosley of being
a Communist. It never occurred to me that he might be or whether
that was of any significance to me if he was. He was a press repre-
sentative and it was my duty to give him information, as I did any
other member of the press.
It was to the interest of the committee investigating the munitions
industry, as its members and we of its staff saw it, to furnish guidance
and information to people who were popuhirizing and writing about
its work.
I would like to say that to come here and discover that the ass under
the lion's skin is Crosley. I don't know why your committee didn't
pursue this careful method of interrogation at an earlier date before all
the publicity. You told me yesterday you didn't know he was going
to mention my name, although a lot of people now tell me that the
press did know it in advance. They were apparently more effective in
getting information than the committee itself. That is all I have to
say now.
Mr. McDowell. Well, now, Mr. Hiss, you positively identify
Mr. Hiss. Positively on the basis of his own statement that he was
in my apartment at the time when I say he was there. I have no fur-
tlier question at all. If he had lost both eyes and taken his nose off,
I would be sure.
Mr. McDowell. Then, vour identification of George Crosely is com-
plete ?
Mr. Hiss. Yes, as far as I am concerned, on his own testimony.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Chambers, is this the man, Alger Hiss, wdio was
also a member of the Communist Party at whose home you stayed?
Mr. Nixon. According to your testimony.
Mr. McDowell. You make the identification positive?
Mr. Chambers. Positive identification.
(At this point, Mr. Hiss arose and walked in the direction of Mr.
Chambers. )
Mr. Hiss. May I say for the record at this point, that I would like
to invite Mr. Whittaker Chambers to make those same statements out
of the presence of this committee without their being privileged for
suit for libel. I challenge you to do it, and I hope you will do it
damned quickly.
I am not going to touch him [addressing Mr. Russell]. You are
touching me.
Mr. Russell. Please sit down, Mr. Hiss.
Mr. Hiss. I will sit down when the chairman asks me.
jSIr. Russell, when the chairman asks me to sit down
Mr. Russell. I want no disturbance.
Mr. Hiss. I don't
Mr. McDowell. Sit down, please.
Mr. Hiss. You know who started this.
Mr. McDowT.LL. We will suspend testimony here for a minute or
two, until I return.
(Short recess.)
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Chairman, would you be good enough to ask Mr.
Chambers for the record his response to the challenge that I have just
made to him?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 989
Mr. jMcDowell. That has nothing to do with the pertinency of the
matter that the connnittee is investigating, and I don't feel I should.
Mr. Hiss. I thought the committee was interested in ascertaining
truth.
Mr. Stripling. What is the challenge?
Mr. McDowell. That he. Mr. Chambers, would make those state-
ments he has made before the connnittee in public where they would
not be privileged under congressional imnuniity. That I would take
it would be strictly a matter up to Mr. Chambers and Mr. Hiss, but I
don't feel the connnittee has any proper or parliamentary right to ask
such a question.
]Mr. Stripling. I don't think it is necessary that he do so. He has
made those statements many times to the Government, and that is not
privileged.
Mr. Hiss. I am advised by counsel that tliey were probably privi-
leged. Are you a lawj'er ?
Mr. Stripling. After a fashion.
Mr. Nixon. I am a lawyer.
Mr. Hiss. It is your opinion they are not privileged?
Mr. Nixon. It is my opinion if a statement is made to an investigative
officer not under subpena, but voluntarily, voluntarily by the wit-
ness, that the statement would not be privileged. If the statement
is made in this hearing, of course, it is privileged.
If we subpena Mr. Chambers, it is privileged, but if Mr. Chambers
goes to somebody in the Government, we will say, on his own, and makes
certain charges concerning you, I don't think you certainly would
claim they are privileged.
Mr. Hiss. How do I obtain the evidence of exactly what he told any
Government officials ?
Mr. NixON. The evidence is then Mr. Chambers' public testimony
before this committee in the first instance. You will recall that he testi-
fied that he did make these statements to Mr. Berle in 1939 concern-
ing you, and he testified also that he made them to Mr. Levine. Those
statements, both to Mr. Levine and Mr. Berle, would not be privileged.
Mr. Hiss. But the fact, as stated to your committee, that he made
those statements, is it self -privileged ?
Unless it is possible to get the actual statement he made under
unprivileged circumstances
Sir. Nixon. Have you asked Mr. Levine ?
Mr. Chambers. May I make a point?
^ir. Stripling. I am concerned with the statement you made be-
fore the committee of Congress in the presence of quite a few hun-
dred people that you didn't even know this person. You led the
public and press to believe you didn't knoAv such a person.
Mr. Hiss. Will you show me where that is ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Hiss. How long will it take?
I was told yesterday', I would have a copy of this. Have you
typed the transcript up [addressing reporter] ?
The Reporter. Approximately half of the transcript has been
finished au-d tw^o copies have been delivered to Mr. Nixon.
Mr. ]McDowELL. Let's proceed in the regular order,
Mr. Nixon. You may ask him about the transcript off the record,
please.
990 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE ^'-i
Mr. Cpiambeks. I hadn't made that statement to Mr. Levine. I
made that statement to Mr. Berle in Mr. Levine's presence.
Mr. Hiss. I might say where it is made to Government officials, our
counsel says there is doubt and considerable difficulty as to getting the
Government witness to testify to what was said to him or getting
documents, if any, which were the record.
Mr. Nixon. As you recall, Mr. Hiss, we instructed the reporter to
type this testimony himself and that has, of course, delayed the prep-
aration of the transcript.
Mr. Stripling. Reading here fi'om your statement, I have just
started in on it, but here is one sentence :
"So far as I know, I have never laid eyes on him, and I should like
to have the opportunity to do so."
Mr. Hiss. That is correct. I did not say that I have never seen this
man. I said, so far as I know I have never seen Whittaker Chambers.
Mr. Stripling. Never laid eyes on him.
Mr. Hiss. I wouldn't have been able to identify him for certain
today without his own assistance.
Mr. Stripling. You are willing to waive the dentures?
Mr. Hiss. I am, on the basis of his own testimony. That is good
enough for me.
Mr. Stripling. His testimony?
]Mr. Hiss. On that point. You are still looking for the statement
you said was in there ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes; go right ahead with the hearing. It is not
particularly import ajiit.
Mr. Hiss. I am glad you don't think it is important.
Mr. Stripling. You are fully aware that the public was led to believe
that you had never seen, heard, or laid eyes upon an individual who
is this individual, and now you do know him.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Stripling, you are stating your impression of public
impression.
Mr. Stripling. Absolutely.
Mr. Hiss. And you may have helped the public impression if it is
anywhere near what you describe it as.
Mr. Nixon. May I ask a question on that point, Mr. Hiss?
Mr. Hiss. You may.
Mr. Nixon. Has any member of the press ever asked you whether
Tou had known Mr. "Whittaker Chambers under this or any other name,
and, if so, what was your answer?
Mr. Hiss. I was asked if I had ever known an individual named
Carl. My answer was "No."
Mr. Nixon. Were you ever asked the question as to whether or not
you knew Whittaker Chambers by that or any other name?
Mr. Hiss. Not to my knowledge. I was asked whether any such
incident as Whittaker Chambers had testified to had occurred with
Whittaker Chambers or anv other individual, and I said, "Absolutely
5"
no.
Mr. Nixon. No member of the press then did ask you the question,
did you know Mr. Whittaker Chambers under that or any other name?
Mr. Hiss. Not to mv recollection. I have no recollection of any such
question ever being asked by any member of the press.
Mr. Nixon. Dicl any individual other than an individual with the
press ask you such a question ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 991
Mr. Hiss. Not to my recollection. If it was asked in the course of
testimony, I can only be confident that I answered I could not identify
the individual whose picture was shown to me, that I had never heard
the name Whittaker Chambers until May of 1947.
Mr. Nixon. I am not speaking of the testimony before the commit-
tee. I am speaking of whether or not an individual outside the
committee other than a member of the press has asked you whether or
not you knew this man nncter any other name.
Mr. Hiss. No ; so far as I have unj recollection.
jNlr. Nixon. And you have never given any answer to that question
to any individual you know ?
Mr. Hiss. Not so far as I know.
Air. Nixon. You have not been asked that question by any member
of the press or any individual outside this committee?
Mr. Hiss. That is true.
Mr. Nixon. The only question you have been asked is whether or
not you have known an individual by the name of Carl?
Mr. Hiss. I was asked that by the pi-ess apparently after another
secret session of this committee. The press understood that he had
been known by the name of Carl.
Mr. Nixon. You never knew this man under the name of Carl?
Mr. Hiss. I did not.
Mr. Nixon. You never paid this man any money for Communist
Party dues?
Mr. Hiss. 1 certainly did not.
Mr. Nixon. This is the man you gave the car to ?
Mr. Hiss. The car?
Mr. Nixon. Yes.
Mr. Hiss. C-a-r— yes.
Mr. Chambers. May I ask a question?
Mr. Nixon. Yes.
Mr. Chambers. Did you ever pay dues to J. Peters?
Mr. Hiss. I certainly did not.
Mr. Chambers. To Henry Collins ?
]Mr. Hiss. I certainly did not ; not even for the Audubon Society did
I ])ay dues to Henry Collins.
Mr. Nixon. Did you ever discuss your hobby, ornithology, with this
man?
Mr. Hiss. I may very likely have. My house has pictures very simi-
lar to that [indicating picture on wall]. This is an appropriate hear-
ing room.
Mr. JNIcDowELL. It was a complete coincidence.
]\Ir. Hiss. Anyone who had ever been in my house would remark
that I had an interest in birds.
]\Ir. Nixon. Do you know if this man you knew as Crosley was an
ornithologist?
Mr. Hiss. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Nixon. You have never given Crosley anything you recall
besides the car?
Mr. Hiss. I have no such recollection. I don't consider I gave him
the car. but threw it in with the whole transaction.
jNIr. Nixon. You had a lease for $225 for the lease?
Mr. Hiss. It wasn't a signed lease.
992 COMMUNIST ESPIOTSTAGE
Mr. Nixon. I understand you had it sublet for $225 and gave him
the car,
Mr. Hiss. May I say I resent the implication of the statement. I
take it it was not a question.
Mr. Nixon. That is all. Mr. McDowell ?
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Hiss, did you ever have a dinner or a meal with
George Crosley ?
Mr. Hiss. I think we fed him when he was in the house for a couple
of days. That is my custom with people staying under my roof.
Mr. McDowell. You are not sure ?
Mr. Hiss. I know I have had lunch with him, because it was my
practice, and still is, that if someone wants to talk to me about a matter
that requires relatively lengthy discussion, a luncheon discussion has
a termination. If they come to see you in your office, it is not quite
so easy to terminate it at your own convenience.
Mr. McDowell. Did this fellow have any characteristics or habits
that you can recall now ?
Mr. Hiss. No ; not of significance, except his bad teeth.
Mr. McDowell. Would you know whether — aside from his bad
teeth, would you know whether he was a heavy drinker or modest
drinker, or nondrinker ?
Mr. Hiss. I have no information about that.
Mr. McDowell. Did you ever take a walk with him ?
Mr. Hiss. That I couldn't be sure. I certainly must have walked to
lunch if we went to lunch from the Senate Office Building. You had
to walk quite a distance to get to any restaurant from the Senate Office
Building.
Mr. McDowell. It would appear to me. Mr. Hiss, of all the news-
paper men that you were in contact in your highly important jobs
with the Nye committee that you must have formed some sort of an
affection for this man to go through all of the things that you did to
try to occupy your home, take over your lease, and give him an auto-
mobile.
The record will note that the chairman of the full committee, Chair-
man Thomas, has arrived.
I would like to bring the chairman up to date as to what has just
happened with all of you present.
We liave been having considerable discussion here, Mr. Chairman,
and Mr. Hiss maintains that Mr. Chambers was the man known as
George Crosley to him. He rented his home, took over a lease, an
informal affair, nothing signed, if I recall.
Mr. Hiss insists that he paid no rent, he gave him a rug as part
payment on the house, and ISIr. Hiss included in this transaction the
gift of a 6- or 7-year-old car. a cheap car, a Ford.
He, in the beginning, examined Mr. Crosley, asking particularly
about his teeth. That was finally resolved and finally Mr. Hiss has
positively, if I am correct — positively identified Mr. Chambers as being
t\ie George Crosley referred to.
Outside of some minor things, that is about the gist of the testimony
up to the present time. I was just questioning Mr. Hiss if he had
ever taken a walk with Mr. Cliambers, and he said that he has, and
he said that he thinks it likely that Mr. Chambers has eaten in his
home, as that was the custom in the Hiss family for guests.
Now, Mr. Stripling, have you any further questions?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 993
Mr. Hiss. Have you found the testimony, Mr. Stripling, you were
referring to ?
Mr. Striplixg. I have several references here, Mr. Hiss, but, as you
stated, it is purely in my opinion based upon these. For example,
when I showed you the picture and you replied :
I would much rather see the individual. I have looked at all the pictures I
was ahle to get hold of in, I think it was, yesterday's paper which had the pictures.
If this is a picture of Mr. Chaniliers, he is not particularly unusual looking. He
looks like a lot of people. I might even mistake him for the chairman of this
committee.
Mr. Hiss. Still might, the record might show.
Mr. Striplixg. But I still say this man looks exactly like the
pictures.
Mr. Nixox. You so testified.
Mr. Hiss. I said the resemblance is not bad, particular!}^ the picture
in Life.
Mr. iSTixox^. We showed you that one.
Mr. Hiss. I saw it earlier than 3'our showing it to me. I saw it yes-
terday morning on the train.
Mr. Nixox. Mr. Hiss, I understood you to say that from the pictures
you had gathered — did I understand you correctly, and your testi-
mony, of course, will speak to this point — that from the pictures yoii
iiad the impression that there was something familiar?
Mr. Hiss. Yes.
Mr. Nixox. But you couldn't detect it?
Mr. Hiss. That is correct.
Mr. Nixox. You didn't indicate that to the committee when you first
testified.
Mr. Hiss. I don't recall. I did to several friends.
Mr. Nixox\ You were asked that question, you will recall, when you
came before the committee in public session.
Mr. Hiss. I said I could not identify this person.
Mr. Nixox. You didn't indicate any familiarity at all.
Mr. Hiss. I don't recall.
Mr. Nixox. Will you read his answer on that? I want to refresli:
his memory.
Mr. Striplix^g. This is the way it reads :
Mr. Hiss. I would much rather see the individual. I have looked at all the-
pictures I was ahle to get hold of in. I think it was, yesterday's paper which had
the pictures. If this is a picture of Mr. Chambers, he is not particularly unusual
looking. He looks like a lot of people. I might even mistake him for the chair-
man of this committee.
Mr. MuNDT. I hope you are wrong in that.
Mr. Hiss. I didn't mean to be facetious but very seriously. I would not want;
fo take oath that I have never seen that man. I would like to see him and then
I think I would be better able to tell whether I had ever seen him. Is he here
today?
Mr. MuNDT. Not to my knowledge.
Did you ask the witness whether or not George Croslej^ ever wrote
an article for American Magazine?
Mr. Nixox. Yes. He testified to that yesterday that it was your
understanding that one of the magazines for which he wrote was.
American. Am I correct in that?
Mr. Hiss. Yes ; that was my understanding from him.
80408 — 48 32
994 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever see any article which appeared in
American Magazine ?
Mr. Hiss. I never did. I noticed Mr. Crosley was not marketing
his articles with the success he had expected.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chambers, did you ever write for American
Magazine ?
Mr. Chambers. No, I never did.
Mr. Stripling. You never had any articles published in American
Magazine ?
Mr. Chambers. Not at all.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever represent yourself as a free-lance
writer writing articles for American Magazine?
Mr. Chambers. No, I never did.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Hiss, might I say it is my custom — I too have
almost constant contact with newspapermen and writers and students
as you described a good bit ago — it has been my custom, although not
the rule or law, that I always find out wdio they are writing for, who
they represent, who they work for, if they are free-lance writers
whether they have written anything.
Can you recall ever finding out any particular thing that Mr. Cham-
bers or Mr. Croslev had written ?
Mr. Hiss. No: 1 didn't, Mr. McDowelL
Mr. McDowell. Or where his things had been published other than
American Magazine ?
Mr. Hiss. I believe you are a newspaperman yourself.
Mr. McDowell. Yes.
Mr. Hiss. You might have a better basis for applying such a rule.
I think it is a very good rule, and I certainly should want to apply it in
the future.
Mr. McDowell. It is like one plumber asking another plumber
whether he has his tools.
Mr. Hiss. I am not a plumber or a writer, and so I didn't check any
newspaper people about that.
Mr. McDowell. You testified you have never read anything he
wrote ?
INIr. Hiss. I never saw anything he produced. He was a singularl}^
unproductive writei'.
Mr. McDow^ELL. Would you know, Mr. Hiss, if Mr. Crosley was in
any fashion bookish? Was he given to reading books or discussing
books or magazine articles or anything of the kind ?
Mr. Hiss. He was given to talking in quite a cultivated manner.,
according to my recollection, about a variety of subjects, as I think I
testified yesterclay.
Mr. Rl^ssell. t would like to clear the record up on one point.
Mr. McDowell. One more question.
Mr. Hiss. I was in the middle
Mr. McDowell. Go right ahead.
Mr. Hiss. You were asking me whether he was bookish.
Mr. McDowell. Yes.
Mr. Hiss. As I testified yesterday, my impression of him was a sort
of combination Jim Tulley-Jack London writer.
Mr. McDowell. I recall that.
Mr. Hiss. He had been many places. He could cap any story with
a story of his own.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 995
One story I remember and I think it is the only one I do recall. He
told me seriously — and I remember it because I think my deciding
that he Avas a four-flusher began about that time — that he had parti-
cipated in laying the rails of the first Washington street railway.
Mr. McDowell. I recall that.
Mr. Hiss. May I ask or would you ask him if that was ever men-
tioned in conversation?
Mr. McDowell. ]Mr. Chambers, you have heard
Mr. Chambers. I would be happy to testify that that is the truth,
and the company I worked for was the Engel & Hevenor Co.
Mr. Hiss. This is important.
Mr. McDowell. It appears to be. This is important as dates can
be checked as to when the streetcar rails were laid, the firm who did
the laying, and I would presume — can you recall, Mr. Chambers, in
those days, in yonv left-wing days, it might be that you used a different
name, would you recall the name that you worked under with this
company other than your right name? Could it have been some other
name ?
Mr. Chambers. It could xevj well have been. I don't recall, but I
recall perfectly well the company, and it is even possible I still have
the badge which I wore to work.
Mr. McDowell. It would be very helpful.
Mr. Hiss. Could we ask him the approximate date when the first
street railway was laid in Washington?
Mr. Chambers. Excuse me. I never told him the first street railway..
Mr. Hiss. A street railway?
Mr. Chambers. No. As a matter of fact, I think it was the W. B.
& A. Lines.
Mr. Hiss. Not in Washington ?
Mr. Chambers. In AVashington.
Mr. Hiss. The one that runs to Baltimore and Annapolis?
Mr. Chambers. I think it came down New York Avenue.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Hiss, did you ever loan Mr, Crosley any books ?
Mr. Hiss. Not to my recollection.
Mr. McDowell. Were any books missing after he was in your home ?
Mr. Hiss. I am afraid I wouldn't be able to testifj^ to that.
Mr. McDoAVELL. You can't recall whether anything was missing
of the possession you left there ?
Mr. Hiss. No.
Mr. McDowell. You testified 3'OU did leave some furniture there?
Mr. Hiss. Yes: and the furniture wasn't missing.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Russell.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Hiss, a moment ago when you arose and started
toward Mr. Chambers, you made a remark that I had touched you,
which I believe is probably in the record. Will you now tell the
chairman and the committee how hard I touched you ?
Mr.. Hiss. You didn't touch me hard. The question of physical
contact is not always a matter of the force of the contact.
Mr. Russell. I used no force whatever.
Mr. Hiss. I didn't say you did. I said it wasn't necessary to touch
me.
Mr. Russell. ]Mr. Dollard, did vou observe me when I touched Mr.
Hiss?
Mr. Dollard. Yes.
996 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr, Russell. Did I use any force ?
Mr. DOLLARD. No.
Mr. Hiss. There is no dispute. I don't like being touched.
Mr, McDowell. It was merely a touch.
Mr. Hiss. I think I used the word "touch."
Mr, McDowell. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Tliis apartment was on Twenty-eighth Street?
Mr, Hiss. Twenty-ninth Street, Mr. Nixon, to the best of my recol-
lection,
Mr. Nixon. I see. Twenty-ninth Street.
Mr. Hiss. Twenty-nintli Street.
Mr, Nixon and Mr. Chairman, may I ask how much longer you
think this is now going on, because I have another appointment? I
missed one ah-eady, thinking it would be 15 or 20 minutes.
Mr. McDowell. You are about finished,
Mr. Hiss. I will be glad to stay as long as you want, but would like
the privilege of calling and saying that I won't get to diimer.
Mr. Stripling. I don't think it is necessary at this time to con-
tinue.
Mr. Nixon. I suggest we take the mattei- up in executive session.
Mr. Hiss. I was not notified by Mr. McDowell by wire or when he
telephoned me that this would be the occasion of ni}^ having a chance
to meet Mr. Chambers.
Mr, McDowell. That is correct.
Mr. Hiss. I had been told yesterday that the meeting would be in
Washington on the 25th and that my opinion as to whether it should
be public or not was of some interest to the committee, whether it
Avould be a public confrontation.
Mr. McDowell. That is correct. That is all part of the record.
Mr. NixoN. Do you have anj^thing to say for the record?
Mr. Chambers. I don't think so.
Mr. Hiss. I wouldn't think so. I am not surprised.
Mr. Chambers. If you want to question me, I would be glad to an-
swer any questions.
Mr, Nixon, I suggest we adjourn.
The Chairman. I want to say one thing. I think you knew yes-
tei'day when you began to tell about George Crosley that there was a
very striking resemblance and you would probably be called in at a
very early date.
Mr. Hiss. That is a statement of your opinion for the record.
The Chairman, Yes; naturally, for the record. You made your
statement for the record,
Mr, Hiss. Would jou like me to say what my impression actually
was?
The Chairman. I am not interested in your impression. I am ask-
ing you if you didn't believe that you would be called much earlier
than the 25th when you built up this Mr. Crosley?
Mv. Hiss. I certainly did not. We talked about the 25th, Mr,
Chairman, at the very conclusion of our meeting j^esterday, and I
think the record will so show.
The CiiairtiIAn. Before that time you talked about Mr. Crosley.
Mr. Hiss. Well, before that time. That is the whole point,
Mr, Nixon. You did want a confrontation at the earliest possible
time.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 997
Mr. Hiss. I did.
Mr. Nixon. You asked for a confrontation.
Mr. Hiss. I did not ask for a confrontation at the earliest possible
time in connection with the committee informing me that they wanted
me to appear in Washington on the 25th. That is not correct, Mr.
Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Then you object to having had a confrontation? That
is what you want the record to show ?
Mr. Hiss. I want the record to show the nature of the preliminary
to this particular meeting. That is all.
Mr. Nixon. The record shows it.
Mr. McDowell. The record is clear.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Hiss, now that you have identified this indi-
vidual who is sitting here and who is Whittaker Chambers, I ask you,
•did you ever meet this individual in the apartment of Henry Collins
at St. Matthews Court?
Mr. Hiss. I did not.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet this individual in the company
of Lee Pressman ?
Mr. Hiss. I did not.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet this individual in the company
ofJohnAbt?
Mr. Hiss. I did not.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet him in the presence of Henry
Collins?
Mr. Hiss. I did not.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet him in the presence of your
brother, Donald Hiss?
Mr. Hiss. I did not.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever pay him any Communist Party dues?
Mr. Hiss. I have already answered the question. To him I did not.
Mr. Stripling. You don't object to answering the question?
Mr. Hiss. Isn't it rather
Mr. Stripling. I asked you did you ever pay him
Mr. Hiss. I did not.
Mr. Stripling. Let me ask the question.
Mr. Hiss. I thought you had asked it.
Mr. Striplixg. I will ask it again.
Mr. Hiss. I will answer it again.
Mr. Striplixg. Did you ever pay any Communist Party dues to
Mr. Whittaker Chambers, whom you now have identified as George
Crosley ?
Mr. Hiss. I did not and I did not pav Communist Party dues to
anybody, not being a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Chambers. May I ask a question ?
Mr. Nixon. You may.
Mr. Chambers. Did you ever meet me in the comixanv of Harold
Ware?
Mr. Hiss. I did not.
Mr. Chambers. Or J. Peters?
Mr. Hiss. I did not.
Mr. Stripling. I would like to ask the witness a question. Li fact,
I would like for tlie chairman to ask this question.
Mr. Hiss. Which question?
998 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. The ones the witness just asked.
Mr. McDowell. Did you ever meet this man in the presence of
Harold Ware?
Mr. Hiss. I did not.
Mr. McDowell. Or J. Peters?
Mr. Hiss. I did not.
Mr. Stripling. Also known as Isidor Boorstein.
Mr. McDowell. Or Isidor Boorstein?
Mr. Hiss. I did not. I have never heard of Isidor Boorstein.
Mr. McDo\MiLL. Or Alexander Stevens?
Mr. Hiss. I did not, never heard the name of Alexander Stevens
before.
Mr. McDowell. Any further questions, Mr. Stripling?
Mr. Hiss. May I ask one question ?
Mr. McDowell. Yes.
Mr. Hiss. The same question that came up yesterday before ad-
journment. What is the connnittee's present intention about publicity
with respect to this afternoon's session i I know what 3^our intention
was with respect to yesterday's session.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Hiss, I can only answer for one member of
the committee, the chairman of the subcommittee, that I don't know,
I don't know.
Mr. Hiss. Are you going to decide any time soon, because I am
interested in my own protection?
Mr. McDowell. Of course. We appreciate that, sir. I would judge
in view of the presence of the chairman of the full committee here,
that we will have an executive session shortly- after this one is over.
Mr. Hiss. Is there anyone I can telephone to to find out the nature
of your decision promptly?
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chairman, we are going to have the executive ses-
sion now, so we ?an tell these two witnesses when to come back. That
was my understanding. So you will know the decision before you
leave. It won't take us more than, I should say, 5 minutes.
Mr. Hiss. Fine.
Mr. McDowell. The committee will rise and you gentlemen make
yourselves comfortable.
(Short recess.)
The Chairman. In executive session of the subcommittee, consist-
ing of Mr. McDowell, Mr. Nixon, and Mr. Thomas, it was unanimously
determined at this meeting that from the testimony received here to-
day Mr. Alger Hiss definitely recognized Whittaker Chambers as the
person whom he knew as George Crosley during the period of the fall
of 1934 to the fall of 1935.
As a result of this testimony the committee has decided to bring
about a meeting of the full committee in public session Wednesday,
August 25, at 10 : 30 in the caucus room of the Old House Office Build-
ing, at which time both Mr. Hiss and Mr. Chambers, whom Mr. Hiss
identified as the person whom he knew as Mi-. Crosley, Avill appear as
witnesses.
Can you gentlemen add anything to that statement?
Mr. McDowell. I have nothing.
Mr. Stripling. Are you going to give the witiiesses subpenas ? Off
the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 999
The Chairmax. Completiiio; my statement, I instruct the chief in-
vest i<2:ator to serve a subpena on both Mr. Hiss and Mr. Chambers to
ajjpear on that date.
Mr. Hiss. May I make a statement at this point for the record?
The Chairman. Just a minute.
Mr. Hiss. Oh, yes.
(There was a short pause.)
Mr. Hiss. Has the minute passed yet, Mr, Chairman?
The Chairman. Make it 2 minutes, then. Wait until we get
tlirouoli. please.
Mr. Hiss. I have been waiting some time. I was told this would
take 15 minutes. You now want me to take 2 minutes.
The Chairman. Do you have anything further?
Mr. Stripling. I just want to make the subpena out.
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Mr. Hiss. I would like to say that the service of a subpena is quite
unnecessary on me. I would be very happy to appear and I told the
committee yesterday if they asked me to appear without talking about
subpenas, I, of course, would be there. I was asked yesterday also by
the committee — and since the committee seems to change its mind so
quickly and frequentl}^, I would like to get it clear — I was asked yes-
terday to make arrajigements for Mrs. Hiss to come down from Ver-
mont to meet in executive session with a subcommittee.
As I mentioned earlier, I was told it would be without publicity.
That was volunteered by the committee, although I read about it in
the papers this morning. Does the committee still desire to hear Mrs.
Hiss in executive session or have you changed your mind?
The Chairman. There is no decision on that.
]Mr. Hiss. Yes ; there was a decision. I have asked her to start down
from Vermont.
The Chairman. Well, you asked her to start down from Vermont.
Mr. Hiss. At your request.
The Chairman. Believing that she would appear on what date?
Mr. Hiss. As early as possible was the request you made of me, con-
sidering her own convenience and whether she could get somebody to
stay with our child.
The Chairman. Is she on the way from Vermont ?
Mr. Hiss. I hope she is on her way by now.
The Chairman. If she is on her way now, I think the subcommittee
would be glad to hear her.
Mr. Hiss has brought up a point, Mr. Nixon, which I discussed with
him yesterday, and that is the question of Mrs. Hiss' appearance before
a subcommittee. Mr. Hiss says he hopes that Mrs. Hiss is on the
waj^ down now to appear before the subcommittee.
Mr. Hiss. That is what I want to know — whether you have changed
your mind again, I asked the chairman, and he said it was under
consideration.
Mr, XixoN, You mean the appearance ? The only matter is the time.
Mr, Hiss. I am merely quoting the chairman. He said the question
was under consideration.
Mr. NixoN. Could she be here tomorrow?
Mr. Hiss. I would do my best. I don't know. Where will you be
tomorrow?
1000 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. I will stay here and see her, or would you rather do it
in Washington ?
Mr. Hiss. You said
Mr. McDowell. It was my impression yesterday that we finally
agreed we would notify Mr. Hiss.
Mr. Hiss. I don't think the record will show that. I was asked to
get in touch as soon as possible, let Mr. Appell know as soon as I could
make arrangements.
Mr. Nixon. "Wliat are the arrangements ?
Mr. Hiss. I got in touch with her immediately by telephone last
night, told her to get somebody to take care of the boy and come down
as soon as she could.
Mr. Nixon. When ?
Mr. Hiss, I hope she will get down tonight.
Mr. Nixon. Just as soon as you tell us when, we will be here.
Mr. Hiss. If she gets down tonight, it will be 2 or 3 in the morning.
Mr. Nixon. We will do it tomorrow then.
Mr. Hiss. What is your convenience and what is your location ?
Mr. Nixon. Can you stay over, Mr. McDowell, tonight?
Mr. McDowell. Of course, if Mrs. Hiss is on her way down here.
Mr. Hiss. I am not askiai,g her to testify. This is up to you. I
asked her at your request. It is no favor to me.
Mr. Nixon. It is purely a case where we want to be here when she is.
Mr. Hiss. I am merely asking for information.
Mr. Nixon. We will be here tomorrow.
Mr. Hiss. Where would you like to have it?
Mr. Nixon. Right here.
Mr. Hiss. This room?
Mr. Nixon. Yes.
Mr. Hiss. What would be the most convenient hour for you ?
Mr. Nixon. Ten o'clock in the mornimg.
Mr. McDow^ELL. If she is on her way.
Mr. Hiss. I cannot be sure she is on her way.
Mr. Nixon. If you could tell us she is going to be here, we would be
willing to stay over.
Mr. Hiss. I cannot guarantee it.
The Chairman. Can she be in Washington on Monday morning?
Mr. Hiss. God, she just made arrangements, if she succeeded at all,
to get somebody to stay with the kid 2 or 3 nights.
The Chairman. You don't know whether she has made arrange-
ments or not ?
Mr. Hiss. I believe so.
The Chairman. You don't know ; you just believe so.
Mr. Nixon. I will stay over tonight. There is no objection to this.
Just let us know. I don't want to stay a week.
Mr. Hiss. I don't want her to stay a week. Where can I reach you
tonight?
Mr. Nixon. You can reach me at this hotel ; and if you wall simply
let me know if she will be here any time tomorrow, I am perfectly will-
ing to be here.
COMMUXIST ESPIONAGE 1001
Mr. Hiss. Vermont trains are unpredictable. May I ask if she is
privilejved to have anybod^y with her?
Mr. Nixon. Absohitely.
Mr. Hiss. May I come with her?
jNlr. JNIcDowELL. Yes.
Mr. Hiss. Thank you. Am I dismissed ?
Is the proceeding over?
The Chairman. Any more questions to ask of Mr. Hiss?
Mr. Nixon. I have nothing.
The Chairman. That is alL Thank you very much.
]Mr. Hiss. / don.t reciprocate.
The Chairman. Italicize that in the record.
Mr. Hiss. I wish you would.
( Wliereupon, at 7 : 15 p. m., the subcommittee adjourned.)
HEAKINGS RErxARDmrx COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 18, 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Special Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Nem York, N. Y.
executr^ session ^
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10: 30 a. m., in room
1400, Hotel Commodore, New York, N. Y., Hon. Richard M. Nixon
presiding.
Committee member present : Representative Richard M. Nixon.
Staff members present: Donald T. Appell, investigator for the
committee.
Mr. Nixon. The record will show tliat this is a meeting of the
subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities, held in
the Commodore Hotel, New York City, on August 18, at 10 : 30 a. m.
Those present are Mr. Nixon and Mr. Appell, committee investigator.
The first witness will be Mr. Nelson Frank.
Will you please stand, Mr. Frank?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are aliout to give will
be the'^truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
]Mr. Frank. I do.
A
TESTIMONY OF NELSON FRANK
Mr. Nixon. State your name.
Mr. Frank. Nelson Frank.
Mr. Nixon. And j'our occupation?
Mr. Frank. Reporter, New York World-Telegram.
Mr. Nixon. And your business address?
Mr. Frank. 125 Barclay Street.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Frank, do you know Mr. Whittaker Chambers?
Mr. Frank. I do.
Mr. Nixon. How long have you known Mr. Chambers?
Mr. Frank. I first met him in 1928.
Mr. Nixon. AVliat was the occasion for that meeting?
Mr. Frank. He was the city editor of the Daily Worker, and I
used to see him up there fairly regularly.
Mr. Nixon. What was your occupation at that time?
' Testimony taken in executive session and released during the pul)lic hearing, August 25,
1948.
1003
1004 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Frank. I was a part-time reporter on the Daily Worker. .
Mr. Nixon. At that time?
Mr. Frank. At that time; yes.
Mr. Nixon. Now, how long did yon know him at that period ?
Mr. Frank. I knew him np until about 1932. I saw him no great
number of times after 1928, but I saw him occasionally in the office
of the New Masses, the monthly Communist magazine, of which he
was one of the editors, in 1931, and I think 1932.
Mr. Nixon. Was Mr. Chambers, to your knowledge, a member of
the party at that time?
Mr. Frank. Oh, yes ; very openly.
Mr. Nixon. He wrote for the New Masses as well as for the Daily
Worker?
Mr. Frank. He had left the Daily Worker and I think was doing
free-lance translating.
Mr. Nixon. When?
Mr. Frank. After 1929. Chambers was doing work as a free-lance
translator and then writing for the New Masses. He wrote a number
of quite outstanding short stories which became very well known.
One of them was produced as a one-act play, I believe, or a short play,
and was shown all over the country. I think it was published as a
pamphlet.
Mr. Nixon. Do you have any photographs of Mr. Chambers at
that time ?
Mr. Frank. No. I don't recall seeing any, although the New Masses
may have published a picture of him at that time.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Frank, as a service to the committee in this investi-
gation, which I am sure you would like to help us resolve one way
or the other
Mr. Frank. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. I would appreciate it if you would do everything you
possibly can to find a photograph of Mr. Chambers either at that
time or sometime between 1930 and 1940, if possible. Would you
do that for us ?
Mr. Frank. I will try. I have a vague recollection that the New
Masses at that time was publishing photographs as well as brief
biographical data on its writers, and I think maybe something on
Chambers appeared at that time.
Mr. Nixon. Thank you. When is the last time you saw him at that
period ; in 1932 ?
Mr. Frank. I think it was certainly not after 1932.
Mr. Nixon. I see.
Now, when did you see him again ?
Mr. Frank. I saw him again either at the end of November or early
December 1944.
Mr. Nixon. What was the occasion of that meeting ?
ISIr. Frank. I called him up and said I wanted to talk with him
and wanted to ask him some things. He was at Time magazine, and
he agreed to see me, and I went to his office. It was on the twenty-
ninth floor of the Time-Life Building, Eockefeller Center.
Mr. Nixon. Could you recognize him when you saw him ?
Mr. Frank. Oh, yes. The face was very definitely the same. I
was quite surprised at the amount of weight he had put on around the
body, but I have put on quite a bit myself, so I wasn't too shocked.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1005
Mr. Nixox. There was no question about your being able to recog-
nize him ?
Mr. Frank. I would say his basic appearance, certainly of his face,
was very much the same. His teeth had always been noticeably bad,
and my recollection is when I first went to see him, he either had none
or very few teeth in, and later at a subsequent time, this first visit in
1944, he got himself a nice set of teeth.
Mr. Nixox. Did you have to see his plate before you could say for
sure that it was the same man 't
Mr. Frank. No. His face had changed. He had a very noticeable
face, and it was very much the same. He was older and more mature
in his actions and slower speaking, I believe, than when I originally
had known him, more careful in placing each word, but otherwise
there was no doubt in my mind.
Mr. Nixon. What about his hair ? Had that changed ^
Mr. Frank. I have no recollection of his hair at all. I do remember
I walked into the room and the face was certainly the face I had known
very well or that I remembered very well.
Mr. Nixon. You didn't have to have somebody point him out?
Mr. Frank. No. As soon as I looked at the face, I knew him ; but
I was surprised at the amount of weight he had put on, and I immedi-
ately said something to him, and he said, "Well, you have put on a
little yourself," and we laughed at that, and that was all.
Mr. Nixon. AVell, that is all, Mr. Frank. Thank you very much for
vour testimony.
(Recess : 11 :10 to 11 :45 a. m.)
Mr. Nixon. The next witness will be Mr. Isaac Don Levine.
Mr. Levine, please stand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Levine. I do.
Mr. Nixon. Be seated, please.
TESTIMONY OF ISAAC DON LEVINE
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Levine, will you please state for the record what
your present occupation and address is?
Mr. Levine. Editor of Plain Talk, Norwalk, Conn.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Levine, do you know Mr. Whittaker Chambers?
Mr. Levine. I do.
Mr. Nixon. How long have you known him ?
Mr. Levine. Since May or June 1939.
Mr. Nixon. What was the occasion of your first meeting ? Do you
recall your first meeting with him ?
Mr. Levine. I certainly do.
Mr. Nixon. Will you describe that for the record.
Mr. Levine. In consequence of the exposures by Gen. Walter Krivit-
sky, formerly chief of the Soviet military espionage in western Europe,
exposures which were published in the Saturday Evening Post with my
collabora.tion. various ex-Communists contacted me.
The editor of a monthly magazine told me of Mr. Whittaker Cham-
bers wdio had a manuscript of his experiences and his exposures. I
agreed to see him and indicated an interest in his stor^'. Mr. Cham-
bers, when he first came to me. was an exceptionally suspicious and
1006 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
fear-riddeii man. He looked around the corners, he Avas afraid to gO'
to any restaurant that I suggested, he linii)ed at the time, and I some-
how received the impression, ahhough the "i's" were never dotted,,
that he had broken a leg while escaping from some man hunters on
Long Island.
He told me he had a wife and two children, that he slept with a
rifle at his side, behind drawn curtains, to protect them; that he had
broken with the Communist underground a 3'ear or two before, and
that he had a manuscript which he thought I might be able to place
with a big and reputable magazine like the Saturda^^ Evening Post,
for he was in very bad need of money.
It turned out that the manuscript was well written but contained
a lot of round-about information, and description, dates, and names
were carefully avoided, yiv. Chambers was afraid to tell his full
story, and it was obvious that it took him con.siderable time to acquire
confidence in me so that he opened up and answered questions.
I kept in touch with Mr. Chambers subsequently, as he had been im-
pressed by the Krivitsky revelations. I thought perhaps I could do
something with his manuscript, but there seemed little chance of entic-
ing him at that time to tell his full story in print. When I suggested
to him that he meet with Krivitsky, he at first recoiled because he
feared that this might be a trap by me. After a while, however, he
consented.
Krivitsky, too, at first, feared meeting Whittaker Chambers.
Krivitsky, too, finally agreed to this arrangement proposed by me.
The meeting took place in my home, and I was present during the first
several hours. It was astonishing to discover that two men from
completely opposite and remote corners of the world or perhaps of the
Soviet underworld had so many things in common.
Krivitsky knew con.siderable about the Soviet espionage operations
in the United States. Some of the Soviet agents sent here in the late
1920's or early 19;]0's were intimate collabor;itors of Krivitsky's. It
turned out that Mr. Chambers recognized some of these characters,
could fill in certain bits for Krivitsky, and Krivitsky could fill in the
same for Mr. Chambers.
Particularly noteworthy in my memory, because both men were ex-
tremely excited over their mutual discovery, was the case of a Soviet
operative sent here by Molotov, the present Prime Minister, who went
under the name of Oscar, but whose real name Krivitsky knew in
Russia. This man Oscar had been beaten to death in JNew York in a
so-called speakeasy brawl. Moscow never believed that the crime was
not political.
The two men, Krivitsky and Whittaker Chambers, went into a long
and detailed examination of this and of other items. When I retired
for the night, they were still talking and exchanging information.
When I woke up in the morning and walked into the front room, the
lights were on and the two men were still talking.
I, myself, got a tremendous education into the Soviet espionage
workings everywhere as well as in the United States, and I was a very
much worried person in the next few months. I could not talk about
it even to my most intimate friends, because they would have regarded
me as a neurotic or as one who saw things under the bed.
Now, when Stalin and Hitler signed their pact on August 23, 1939,
I looked up Chambers in an effort to induce him to tell his story to
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1007
the highest authorities in Washington. He was tremendously shaken,
by the Stalin-Hitler pact, the way I was and everybody else. He now
had a job on Time.
1 told him that I would try to reach President Roosevelt and have
liim tell his story direct to the President. He was willing to do that»
He jotted down on a memorandum slip of Time his Long Island tele-
phone number, which was a great secret at the time. I preserved that
memorandum, and if it is needed, you can have it.
Mr. Nixon. Thank you.
Mr. Levine. When I contacted Marvin Mclntyre, in the White
House. President Roosevelt's secretary, with whom I had a passing
friendly acquaintance, the way a writer or newspaperman would have,
and told him without mentioning the name that I had an editor of
Time who had an extraordinary story to tell to the President about
Stalin agents in this country who, in all probability, would be acting
as Hitler's agents, Mclntyre replied that he did not think that he
could get me to the President with this man. get this man to the Presi-
dent, but he asked me if I knew Adolf Berle in the State Department,
and I said, ''Yes; quite well." I said, '^What has Berle got to do
with this?'' He said, "Didn't you know that Berle was in charge of
liaison between the State Departmeent and the various intelligence
and investigative agencies of the Government?" I said I did not.
Mr. Mclntyre then offered to telephone Berle and arrange for this
meeting. I said it was completely unnecessary since I knew Mr. Berle
well enough.
I walked over to Mr. Berle's office in the State Department in the
old building, and had a talk with him. I told Mr. Berle that since
Whittaker Chambers had had contacts with the State Department,,
it would not be safe to bring him to his office and asked him if this
meeting could be arranged outside. Mr. Bei'le made a dinner date for
Mr. Chambers and myself at his home, the Woodley House, the estate
of the future Secretary Stimson. which he was then occupying.
I got in touch with Mr. Chambers and told him of the dinner date.
Both of us showed up at Woodley House. I am almost certain that
it was the night of September 3, the day on which Great Britain
declared war after Hitler's invasion of Poland.
Present at the dinner in addition to Mv. Berle and Mr. Chambers
and myself was Mrs. Berle. She acted the part of a hostess and
knew nothing about the jourpose of the visit. The conversation at the
table was general chit-chat and talk about the war.
After dinner the three of us retired to Mr. Berle's study. It was a
warm evening. We spent some time on the lawn talking. We returned
back to the study, and Mr. Berle was making notes.
I think probabl}^ between a half dozen and 10 sheets of notes were
made by Mr. Berle while Mr. Chambers was opening up the insides of
the State Department and various other departments in Washington
where he had underground contacts who supplied him with docu-
mentary and confidential information for transmission to the Soviet
Governme)it.
The picture which emerged by midnight was quite appalling to
me, and I think Mr. Berle was very much shaken by the various names
of the Soviet agents that Mr. Chambers disclosed. ]Mr. ChanVners
furnished, in addition to the names, descriptions and characteriza-
tions of the various persons which served to provide a background
1008 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
and give an authentic and authenticating- character both to his nar-
rative and to the answers to the questions which Mr. Berle then
propounded.
I think it was sometime between midnight and 1 o'clock when we
left Woodley House. When I got to my hotel, after I took leave from
Mr. Chambers, tired as I was', I jotted all the names that I could
recall on a sheet of hotel stationery.
Mr. Nixon. Can you tell us whether the name of Alger Hiss was
mentioned in that conversation Avith Mr. Berle?
Mr. Levine. Both Hiss brothers were mentioned. The name of
Alger Hiss and the name of the other Hiss.
Mr. Nixon. There is no question that those names were mentioned?
Mr. Levine. There isn't any question, because I made a record at
the time, and I am looking at it now and I see that in my own hand-
writing and in ink the name of Alger Hiss was entered by me. The
brother I could not apparently recall his first name, and I have above
the name "Alger Hiss" the name ''Hiss" alone.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Levine, did you convey this information that Mr.
Chambers had given to Mr, Berle to any other persons in the Govern-
ment ?
Mr. Levine. Yes, sir; I did. I conveyed it some 3 months later to
former Ambassador Bullitt, a friend of the President's, at breakfast
with him in his Hotel Anchorage apartment.
I also conveyed it to other officials.
Mr. Nixon. In the case of Mr. Bullitt, did you mention the name
of Alger Hiss to him ; do you recall ?
Mr. Levine. I believe I did.
Mr. Nixon. You can't recall for sure?
Mr. Levine. I would not be too sure of it.
Mr. Nixon. Now, you conveyed this information also to other offi-
cials in the Government?
Mr. Levine. I am certain that I mentioned both names to Mr. Lloyd
Henderson, at that time in charge of the Russian Section of the State
Department, in a confidential way only, not in an official way.
Mr. Nixon. Did you at any time hear of any action any of these
persons had taken as a result of these disclosures?
Mr. Levine. I believe that Mr. Berle acted upon the information.
I believe that he passed it on to the proper authorities. I also urged
Mr. Bullitt to take it up with the President. I gave Mr. Bullitt some
very special additional information about what went on in the United
States Embassy in Moscow when he was Ambassador, and Mr. Bullitt
was sufficiently aroused to indicate that he would take it up with
President Roosevelt as soon as he had an opportunity to see him.
Mr. Nixon. Do you have any information as to what action Presir
dent Roosevelt took as a result of this action by Mr. Bullitt ?
Mr. Levine. No, sir.
Mr. Nixon. You, of course, are acquainted with Mr. Chambers to-
day, are you not?
Mr. Levine. Yes, indeed. I have been in touch with Mr. Chambers
on and off: I have watched his career; I have come to hold him in the
highest respect ; I regard him as a crystal honest person, dependable,
sound, patriotic, intelligent, without malice toward anyone, with a
high sense of justice and fair play.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1009
Mr. XixoN, Has he ever, to your knowledge, since you have known
him, been in a mental sanitarium?
Mr. Levine. ^l o.
Mr. Nixon. What are his habits, so far as being a heavy drinker ;
are you familiar with that?
Mr. Levine. I am familiar with it, because I had dinner with him
and with some other people last winter, and I should think that he is a
singularly abstemious and moderate person in all his habits.
Mr. XixoN. Do you recall his appearance in 1939 ?
I want to ask you now whether or not you would be able to recognize
him today as being the same person that you knew in 1939 if you had
not seen him through the intervening years ?
Mr. Levine. I would be able to recognize him without the slightest
difficulty, for Mr. Chambers has an uncommon face and he is the type
whom 1 could recognize 25 years after having seen him as much as
I had seen him.
Mr. Nixon. You have seen the pictures that have been carried in
Time magazine, NeAvs Week magazine, and in the press, some of which
I am showing you nowi'
Mr. Levine. Yes, sir.
Mr, Nixon. Are those pictures good likenesses of Mr. Chambers, and
could you recognize him from those pictures?
^h. Lemxe. Without the slightest difficulty. They are fair to excel-
lent in likeness.
Mr. Nixon. Could you recognize him from those pictures if you had
]iot seen him since 1939?
Mr. Levine. Yes, sir ; without any difficulty.
Mr. Nixon. That concludes the hearing, Mr. Levine.
("WHiereupon, at 12:40 p. m., the subcommittee adjourned.)
&0408— 48-
HEARINGS REGARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE IGNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
WEDNESDAY. AUGUST 18, 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Special Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
New York City, N. Y.
executive session ^
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 11 : 10 a, m., in room
1400, Hotel Commodore, New York City, N. Y., Hon. Richard M.
Nixon presiding.
Committee members present : Representative Richard M. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Let the record show that this is a meeting of the sub-
committee of the Committee on Un-American Activities, in the Com-
modore Hotel, on the 18th of August 1945. The member present is
Mr. Nixon.
The witness will be Mrs. Alger Hiss.
Mrs. Hiss, will ji-ou be sworn, please?
Mrs. Hiss. Must I swear ?
Mr. Nixon. No : vou can affirm, if vou like.
Mr. Hiss. Please stand.
Mr. Nixon. Whichever you prefer.
Mrs. Hiss. I much prefer to affirm.
Mr. Nixon. Either one is standard practice.
Do you affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, the Avhole truth, and nothing but the truth ?
Mrs. Hiss. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. ALGER HISS, ACCOMPANIED BY ALGER HISS
AND CHARLES DOLLARD
Mr. Nixon. Mrs. Hiss, you are the wife of Alger Hiss ?
Mrs. Hiss. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. And you were living with Mr, Hiss in Washington,
D. C, during the years 1934 to 1937?
Mrs. Hiss. Yes ; earlier than that.
Mr. Nixon. I understand that. These are the years we are inter-
ested in.
Now, at any time during the period 19,34 to 1937 did you become
acquainted with a person known to you by the name of George Crosley ?
Mrs. Hiss. I did.
* Testimonj' takeu in executive session and released during tlie public liearing, August 25,
1948.
1011
1012 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. Will you describe in your own words as well as you can
recollect how you first became acquainted with the man, your recollec-
tion of the acquaintanceship ?
Mrs. Hiss. Well, I don't think I became acquainted with him
Mr. Nixon. I am only interested in what you know yourself.
Mrs. Hiss. My husband did, and through a business relationship I
think it would be fair to call it. I don't think I (?an really be said to
have been acquainted with him at all.
Mr. Nixon. I see.
When did you first meet him ?
Mrs. Hiss. I have no idea. I don't remember. I am sorry,
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall whether it was the year 1934 or 1935 ?
Mrs. Hiss. If I could just remember where I lived which year.
Mr. Nixon. That would possibly be a help. Could you recall where
you were living at the time you first met this man ?
Mrs. Hiss. I don't remember first meeting him, so that isn't any help.
What I was trying to remember was where I lived which year, I think
it must have been in 1934.
Mr, Nixon, Do you recall at what time of the year it was — summer,
winter, spring, or fall?
Mrs, Hiss. No ; I don't,
Mr, Nixon. I wouldn't ask you to remember the month, because it
was a long time ago.
Mrs. Hiss. I am sorry, I just don't. I just haven't the vaguest
Mr. Nixon. Do you remember the occasion of the meeting ? Was it
in your home that you met him for the first time ?
Mrs. Hiss. No ; I am sorry ; I don't remember that. I think it may
have been.
Mr. Nixon. Well, have you ever seen this man in your home?
Mrs. Hiss. Yes ; I have seen him in my home.
Mr. Nixon. Well, can you recall the occasions of those meetings?
Mrs. Hiss. I have a vague recollection of this man and his wife
looking at the apartment which we sublet to them, and I have a very
distinct memory of their spending 2 or 3 days in our house before they
moved into the sublet apartment.
Mr. Nixon. And do you recall when those 2 or 3 days were spent
approximately ?
Mrs. Hiss. Well, they must have been in the summer of 1935,
Mr. Nixon. And after they had spent the 2 or 3 days with you they
moved into this sublet apartment?
Mrs. Hiss. That is right,
Mr, Nixon. And do you recall approximately how long the}' stayed
in your apartment ?
Mrs. Hiss. Well, several months.
Mr. NixoN. Several months during the summer ?
Mrs. Hiss. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Of 1935?
Mrs, Hiss. I think so. As I recall. It all seems very long ago and
vague.
Mr. Nixon. Of course. Can you describe this man for us as well
as you remember him?
Mrs. Hiss. I have a very dim impression of a small person, very
smiling person— a little too smiley, perhaps. I don't recollect the face,
but a short person.
COMMUNIST ESPIOXAGE 1013
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall taking a trip from Washington to New
York with him and Mr. Hiss?
Mrs. Hiss. I don't really recall it. My husband spoke to me about
that, and I don't recall it.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall the last time you saw this man ?
Mrs. Hiss. No ; I don't recall it at all. I am afraid the only im-
pression I have was of being perhaps a little put out.
Mr. Nixon. Put out about what ?
Mrs. Hiss. Well, I think the polite word for it is probably I think
he was a sponger.
Mr. NixoN. In other words, he stayed at your house, you mean,
and
Mrs. Hiss. I don't know whether you have ever had guests, unwel-
comed guests, guests that weren't guests, you know.
Mr. Nixon. He stayed at your house — you are speaking of the 3-
day period that he stayed there ?
Mrs. Hiss. I am not sure it was 3 days. It certainly feels like more,
but I don't know. It was a short while.
Mr. Nixon. But the impression from that 3-day period was that he
was a sponger ; is that what you mean ?
Mrs. Hiss. I suppose I was busy and tired and it seemed a bother
and inconvenience.
Mr. NixoN. That completes the testimony. I have no further ques-
tions.
Mrs. Hiss. Well, I am glad of that, and I have been very glad to
come.
Mr. Nixon. I appreciate your coming.
Mrs. Hiss. I am glad it has been so quiet, because that was really
what I had a strong distaste for. I would like to thank you for our
just being together.
Mr. Hiss. I greatly appreciate your courtesy, Mr. Nixon.
(Whereupon, at 11:20 a. m., a recess was taken until 11:45 a. m.,
at which time the subcommittee reconvened for further proceedings,
the transcript of which will be found in another volume as of this date
and place.)
HEAKINGS EECTARDmCT COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
FRIDAY, AUGUST 20, 1948
UxiTED States House of Representatives,
Special Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D, C.
executive session ^
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10 : 10 a. m., in room 226,
Old House Office Building, Hon. Richard M. Nixon presiding.
Committee member present : Representative Richard M. Nixon.
Staff members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator;
Louis J. Russell and Donald T. Appell, investigators; and A. S.
Poore, editor, for the committee.
Mr. Nixon. The meeting will come to order.
The record will show that this is a meeting of the subcommittee of
the Committee on Un-American Activities, appointed by the chairman,
J. Parnell Thomas, to take testimony in the matter involving the con-
troversy between Mr. Whittaker Chambers and Mr. Alger Hiss.
The record will show that Mr. Nixon, a member of the committee,
is present, and that the following members of the staff are present : Mr.
Stripling, chief investigator; Mr. Russell, investigator; and Mrs.
Poore, editor.
Mr. Abt, will you stand and be sworn?
Mr. Abt, we desire to take a statement from you.
Will you please raise your right hand ?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Abt. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Be seated, please.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN J. ABT, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
HAROLD CAMMER
Mr. Stripling. Do you have counsel present with you, Mr. Abt ?
Mr. Abt. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Will counsel please identify himself?
Mr. Cammer. INIy name is Harold Canmier and my office address is
9 East Fortieth Street, New York City.
Mr. Stripling. Will you please state your full name, please, Mr.
Abt?
" Testimony taken in executive session and released during tlie public hearing, August 25,
1948.
1015
1016 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Abt. John J. Abt.
Mr. Stripling. And your present address?
Mr. Abt. Home address ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Art. 444 Central Park West, New York City ?
Mr. Stripling. When and where were yon born, Mr. Abt?
Mr. Abt. I was born in Chicago, 111., May 1, 1904.
Mr. Stripling. What is your present occupation?
Mr. Abt. I am general counsel to the Progressive Party.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever been employed in the Federal Govern-
ment?
Mr. Abt. I have.
Mr. Stripling. Will you state what positions you have had in the
Government ?
Mr. Abt. I entered the Government service in 1933 as an attorney
for the Agricultural Adjustment Administration. In 1935 I became
assistant general counsel of the Works Progress Administration. In
1936 1 was assigned by the Works Progress Administration as a special
counsel to the Securities and Exchange Commission to prepare the case
against the Electric Bond & Share Co., under the Public Utilities Hold-
ing Company Act.
Subsequently, in 1936, I became chief counsel to the subcommittee
of the Senate Committee on Education and Labor under the chairman-
ship of Senator La Follette, investigating violations of civil liberties
and the rights of labor.
In 1937 I became a special assistant to the Attorney General, in
charge of the Trial Section of the Antitrust Division. 1 left the Gov-
ernment service in the summer of 1938.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you go, Mr. Abt, when you left the Gov-
ernment service?
Mr. Abt. I became general counsel of the Amalgamated Clothing
Workers of America.
Mr. Stripling. How long did you remain there ?
Mr. Abt. I remained there until January 1948.
Mr. Stripling. What is your educational background, Mr. Abt?
Mr. Abt. I attended primary and high school in Chicago, took my
bachelor's degree and law degree at the University of Chicago.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Abt, are you a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Cammer. Mr. Chairman, I object.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Counsel, let me say this before you make your
objection. The procedure of this committee is that the witness has
the right to have counsel. The witness, when he is asked a question,
may at anytime consult with counsel, and counsel may advise him as
to whether or not there are constitutional objections to the question
which is being phrased. The witness may state the objection in re-
fusing to answer the question or in qualifying his answer in any way ;
but the procedure of the committee does not allow for counsel to
interpose objections to questions during the course of a hearing, or to
present answers to questions or to make arguments.
The witness has a perfect right to consult counsel on every question
if he wishes, but the witness must take the initiative in that respect.
Now, you put the question again.
COMMUNIST ESPIOXAGK 1017
Mr. Cammer. Mv. Nixon, may I state this? I do not propose to
make any answers, nor do I propose to engage in any argument. I
should like very briefly and Avithout argument to note an objection
for the record. I do not propose. to become involved in any discus-
sion. I just would like to note a very brief objection.
Mr. Nixox. I understand, Mr. Counsel. The objection in that
case should be made by the witness. The witness can make it after
consultation with j^ou as to what kind of objections he should make.
We are taking testimony from the witness, and if 3'ou wish to advise
the witness that he should object to a particular answer you may do
so at this time.
Mi", Cammer. Mr. Nixon, I think the witness will make his own
objections, but there is one objection which I shoidd like very briefly
to state for the record, which I think is appropriate for counsel to
make, and then you may require, if you so wish, that the witness state
his own objection. But I should like, as counsel, to state one objection.
Mr. Nixon, Well, Mr. Counsel, the point at issue, as I see it, is
that the committee has not requested testimony from you. You are
here at the request of the witness, to represent him, so that he can
consult with you ; and if the witness wishes to interpose objections to
any questions, he may.
Mr. Cammer. I do not propose to testify, Mr. Nixon. I made that
very clear. The witness w^ill do his own testifying.
I would like to state the objection, as counsel, and then, if you wish,
you may require the witness to state the objection himself.
Mr. Stripling. How long would it require you to state your ob-
jection ?
Mr. Cammer. Not long at all.
Mr. Stripling. What is your general objection?
Mr. Cammer. I would like to state my objection. I would like to
state simply the objection, and I will not argue it except with the per-
mission of the chairman.
I object to the question on the ground, first, that Mr. Abt's asso-
ciations, views, opinions, affiliations, and the like are outside the scope
of any inquiry under the first amendment to the Constitution.
The second objection is that this investigation, or the subject
matter of this investigation as stated by Mr. Nixon, is outside the scope
of any congressional inquiry, and is an intrusion upon the judicial
function which is invested exclusively in the judiciary by article III
of the Constitution.
The third objection, or the third basis of objection, is that this
committee, and the subcommittee conducting this hearing under the
aegis of this committee, is unlawfully constituted by reason of the
membership thereon of one John Rankin, who holds an alleged seat
in Congress unlawfully, and in violation of the provisions of the
fourteenth amendment, so that this committee may not interrogate
for that reason.
Mr. Nixon. Does that complete your objection?
Mr. Cammer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Your objections run to the question that Mr. Strip-
ling put as well as to the entire proceedings being conducted ?
Mr. Cammer. They do, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Do you join in that objection, Mr. Abt?
1018 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Abt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. We will proceed now with the hearing, and you may
raise objection, as yon like.
Mr. Stripling. Before we proceed, Mr. Chairman, I would like to
ask Mr. Abt if he is here before the committee in response to a sub-
pena which was served on him on August 18 by Stephen W. Birming-
ham, calling for his appearance at 10 a. m., in the rooms of the com-
mittee here this morning. Is that correct, Mr. Abt ?
Mr. Abt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Now, Mr. Abt, I will ask you : Are you now a mem-
ber of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Abt. Do I understand, Mr. Chairman, that you have overruled
the objection made by my counsel?
Mr. Stripling. You have got to state some other reason, other than
an objection ; you have to refuse to answer the question or answer the
question, one or the other.
Ml'. Nixon. The chief investigator has stated the case correctly.
The witness may, when each question is put to him, determine whether
or not he has constitutional grounds upon which to object to answering
any question, and he may state those grounds if he wishes to refuse,
or he may answer the question.
Will you put the question again, Mr. Stripling?
Mr. Stripling. INIr. Abt, are you a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Abt. Mr. Stripling, on the grounds of objections stated by my
counsel and, in addition, in tlie exercise of the privilege extended to
me under the fifth amendment of the Constitution against self-incrim-
ination, I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Cammer. Same objection, Mr. Chairman. I am not repeating
it; I am simply saying "same objection."
Mr. Nixon. I understand that. Noav, let me say simply this: We
recognize counsel's position here, but if counsel will allow the witness
in each case to state the objection — and I want to instruct the witness
when you do answer each question, to state the objection as you have.
If it is the fifth amendment in each case, state, "I object to answering
the question on the grounds of self-incrimination under the fifth
amendment," as you stated previonsly; but please do not interrupt
him, Mr. Counsel, during this period, because, as you can see, it will
delay the proceeding if we have both counsel and the witness objecting
to each question. I think your position is very clear.
Mr. Cammer. I would like permission to say "same objection" to each
question. Let me make my record in those two words.
Mr. Nixon. Let the record show that counsel is raising the objection
to each question that the witness is raising, so that counsel's position
will be absolutely clear.
Now, Mr. Stripling, will you please restate the question.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Abt. On the grounds of objection stated to the previous question
by my counsel, and in the exercise of my constitutional privilege
against self-incrimination under the fifth amendment, I decline to
answer that question.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1019
jNIr. Stripling. Mr. Abt, do you know an individual by the name
of AVhittaker Chambers?
Mr. Abt. On the ground of objection, Mr. Stripling, stated at the
outset of this hearing by my counsel and in the exercise of my privilege
under the fifth amendment against self-incrimination, I decline to
answer that question.
Mr. Nixon. Let the record show that the witness is conferring with
counsel.
]\lr. Stripling. Mr. Abt, on August 3, AVhittaker Chambers testified
in open session before this committee that there was an underground
apparatus of Communist Party members functioning within the Gov-
ernment during the period 1934, 1935, 1936. He testified :
The head of the uiKlergroiind group at the time I knew it was Nathan Witt,
au attorney for the National Labor Relations Board. Later John Abt became
the leader.
Were you ever the leader of an underground apparatus in the Com-
munist movement operating w^ithin the Government in AVashing-
ton,D. C? -
Mr. Abt. On the grounds of objections stated by my counsel, under
the first amendment to the Constitution, and on the grounds that the
subject matter of that question is a matter of judicial rather than
congressional inquiry, and on he grounds stated by my counsel of the
improper and unlawful composition of this committee, and, in addi-
tion, in the exercise of my privilege against self-incrimination under
the fifth amendment, I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Abt, are you acquainted with Alger Hiss?
Mr. Abt. On the grounds of objections stated by my counsel on the
first amendment to the Constitution, and by virtue of the prior objec-
tions that the subject matter of this inquiry is a matter of judicial
rather than congressional investigation
Mr. Cammer. Article III of the Constitution.
Mr. Abt. Under article III of the Constitution, and on the ground
of the unlawful and improper composition of this committee under
the fourteenth amendment, and in the exercise of my privilege against
self-incrimination under the fifth amendment, I decline to answer that
question.
Mr. Stripling. ISIr. Abt, I show you two pictures, one of which is
from the New Masses of July 1931, of AVhittaker Chambers, appearing
on page 23 of New Masses. The other is a picture taken on August
3, 1948, by the Associated Press, of Mr. Chambers when he appeared
in Washington. I show you these two pictures, and I ask you if you
recognize this individual [showing pictures to the witness].
Mr. Abt. Mr. Chairman, on the grounds of the previous objections
under the first amendment to the Constitution, the third amendment
to the Constitution
Mr. Cammer. Article III of the Constitution, and in the exercise of
my privilege against self-incrimination under the fifth amendment to
the Constitution, I decline to answer that question,
Mr. Nixon. Off the record.
(Discussion was had outside the record.)
Mr. Nixon. On the record.
Mr. Cammer. May the record show, Mr. Chairman, that in every
case where the objection is made, Mr. Abt also objects on the ground
1020 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
that lie has a right to trial by judicial process under the sixth amend-
ment.
Mr. Nixox. And in the future, it is my understanding that when
the witness says, "The same grounds," he is referring to the grounds
which have been raised by counsel and the ground of self-incrimi-
nation which the witness has raised, and on the ground of trial by
jury under the Constitution, which counsel has just now stated. That
is what the term "same grounds" will mean when used in this hearing.
Mr. Cammer. Very good, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Unless otherwise stated by the witness.
Mr. Cammer. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. All right. You may now proceed, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. S'riapLiNO. ]\Ir. Abt, I show you the pictures which have just
been identified, the two photographs, and I ask you if you know this
individual under the name of Carl, C-a-r-1?
Mr. Abt. On the grounds already stated, I decline to answer the
question.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know an individual by the name of George
Crosley, C-r-o-s-l-e-y?
Mr. Abt. On the grounds already stated, I decline to answer the
question.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know an individual by the name of J. Peters,
alias Alexander Stevens, alias Isidore Boorstein ?
Mr. Abt. On the grounds that I have already stated, I decline to
answer the question.
Mr. Stripling. I show you a photograph of J. Peters. Can you
identify this photograph as the person you know as J. Peters [showing
the witness a photograph] ?
Mr. Abt. On the grounds already stated, I decline to answer the
question.
Mr. Stripling. Wlien you were in the Works Progress Administra-
tion, Mr. Abt, who was your immediate superior ?
Mr. Abt. On the grounds I have already stated, I decline to answer
that question.
Mr. Stripling. When you worked for the La Follette Civil Liberties
Committee, who was your superior ?
Mr. Abt. Senator Robert M. La Follette.
Mr. Stripling. Are you acquainted with Charles Kramer ?
Mr. Abt. On the grounds I have already stated, I decline to answer
that question.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever visited the Soviet Union ?
Mr. Abt. Yes ; I have.
Mr. Stripling. What year did you got to the Soviet Union ?
Mr. Abt. 1945.
Mr. Stripling. Are you married, Mr. Abt ?
Mr. Abt. I am.
Mr. Stripling. What was your wife's maiden name?
Mr. Abt. Jessica Smith.
Mr. Stripling. Is she the editor of a magazine known as Soviet
Russia Today?
Mr. Abt. She is.
Mr. Stripling. Did you contribute a number of articles to this
magazine?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1021
Mr. Abt. I did.
Mr. Stuipling. In its issues of June 104:7, ^larch 194 < , and February
^h: Abt. I do not recall the exact dates. I do not recall, Mr.
Stripling, but I contributed a series of articles on the trade-union
movement of the Soviet Union.
Mr. Stritling. Was your wife, Jessica Smith, at one time married
to Harold Ware ^
Mr. Abt. On the grounds I previously st-ated, I decline to answer
that question.
Mr. >S'TRirLixG. Do you knoAv Lee Pressman?
Mr. Abt. On the grounds that I have previously stated, I decline to
answer that question.
Mr. Striplixg. Just say "same answer." It will be sufficient.
Do you know Nathan Witt ?
Mr. Abt. I would prefer
Mr. Nixox. Let him spell it out, Mr. Stripling. I vrant the wit-
ness' grou.ids to appear absolutely clear in the record.
]Mr. Strtpi.ixg. Yes.
Do you know Xathan Witt?
Mr." Abt. On the grounds I have previously stated, I decline to
answer that question.
Mr. Stripltxc!. Nathan Gregory Silvermaster?
Mr. Abt. On tlie grounds 1 previously stated, I decline to answer
that question.
Mr. Striplixg. Victor Perlo?
Mr. Abt. On tlie grounds I previously stated, I decline to answer
that question.
Mr. Striplixg. Allan R. Rosenberg?
Mr. Abt. On the grounds previously stated, I decline to answer
that question.
Mr. Striplixg. Robert Wohlf ord ?
Mr. Abt. On the grounds I have previously stated, I decline to
answer that question.
Mr. Striplixg. Henry Collins?
Mr. Abt. On the grounds previousl}^ stated, I decline to answer
the question.
Mr. Striplix(}. Donald Hiss?
Do you know Earl Browder?
Mr. Abt. Pardon me? Please do not turn your back to me when
j'oii ask the questions.
Mr. Striplixg. Yes. Do you know Earl Browder?
Mr. Abt. I, on the grounds previously stated, decline to answer
that question.
Mr. Striplixg. Do you know Gerhart Eisler?
Mr. Abt. On the grounds previously stated, I decline to answer that
question.
Mr. Striplixg. Who was the Attorney General when 3'ou were em-
ployed in the Department of Justice?
Mr. Abt. Homer Cummings.
Mr. Striplixg. Did you know Mr. Cummings personally?
Mr. Abt. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Striplixg. Who succeeded Mr. Cummings ?
1022 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Abt. Justice Murphy — the man who is now Justice ^Murphy.
I believe that I was still in the Department when he succeeded General
Cummings if I recall.
Mr. Striplix(;. That is all the questioning I have, ]Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Nixon. I have no further questions.
" Thank you very much, Mr. Abt, and Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Stripling, will you call the next witness ?
Mr. Stkii'ling. The next witness, Mr. Chairman, will be Mr. Lee
Pressman.
Mr. Pressman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Would you stand and be sworn, please ?
Mr. NixoN. Mr. Pressman, do you solemnly swear that the testi-
mony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Pressman. Yes.
Mr. NixoN. Please be seated.
TESTIMONY OF LEE PRESSMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
HAROLD CAMMER
Mr. Stripling. You are here in response to a subpena served upon
you August 18, 1948, by Stephen S. Birmingham, calling for your
appearance before the conmiittee in its chambers at 10 : 30 this morn-
ing ; is that correct ?
Mr. Pressman. That is correct.
Mr. NixoN. Now, Mr. Counsel, do you have a statement to make?
Mr. Cammer. May I note my appearance here, sir ?
My name is Harold Cammer, and my address is 9 East Fortieth
Street, New York City.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Pressman, do you desire Mr. Cammer to repre-
sent you ?
Mr. Pressman. That is correct.
INIr. Stripling. Mr. Pressman, will you state your full name and
present address ?
Mr. Pressman. Lee Pressman, and my business address is 9 East
Fortieth Street, New York City.
Mr. Stripling. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Pressman. New York City, N. Y.
Mr. Stripling. When?
Mr. Pressman. July 1, 1906.
Mr. Stripling. What is your present occupation ?
Mr. Pressman. I am an attorney.
]Mr. Stripling. Were you ever employed in the Federal Govern-
ment ?
Mr. Pressman. I was.
Mr. Stripling. Would you state the positions you held and the time
and tenure of each office ?
Mr. Pressman. To the best of my recollection, I was assistant gen-
eral coimsel of the Agricultural Adjustment Administration ap]iroxi-
mately some time in 1933, about 1934, I believe, at which time I was
transferred and became general counsel of the Works Progress Admin-
isti-ation and of then known Resettlement Administration.
I believe I resigned from Government service during the latter part
of 1935.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1023
JNIr. Stripling. Mr. Pressman, are you now or have you ever been
a member of the Connnunist l*arty ?
Mr. Cammer. Mr. Chairman, I object to the question on the follow-
ing- orounds: First, that Mr. Pressman's affiliations, conscience, views,
opinions, associations are not within the subject of inquiry of this
conuiiittee under the first amendment.
Second, that tlie subject matter of tliis investigation is without the
jurisdiction of this committee and within the subject of judicial in-
quiry only, under article III of the Constitution.
Third, that the committee is unlawfully constituted by reason of
the presence thereon of one John Rankin, who holds an alleged seat
as a Member of Congress from Mississippi.
Fourth, that the subject of this inquiry and the manner in which it
is conducted is in violation of Mr. Pressman's rights to judicial process
under the sixth amendment.
(At this point, Mr. Pressman and Mr. Cammer confer.)
]\Ir. Pressmax. Mr. Chairman, may I also add a ground?
Mr. Nixox. Do you join in these objections?
Mr. Pressmax. I join in these objections, and add thereto that the
inquiry and any response on my part would be in violation of the
provisions of tlie fifth amendment to the Constitution.
]Mr. Xixox. Just one moment, please.
The record will note the objections which have been raised by
counsel and which have been joined in by the witness. The Chair will
state at this time that the investigation which is being conducted is
one involving an alleged Communist infiltration into the Government
of the United States and into alleged espionage activities conducted
by those involved in the Communist apparatus which is alleged to
have been set up.
The purpose of the questions which will be asked by counsel and by
the committee during this hearing is to determine whether or not
Mr. Pressman was engaged in these activities, and if so the extent of
his activity in that regard.
(At this point, Mr. Pressman and Mr. Cammer confer.)
yiv. Pressmax. Mr. Chairman, may I make this inquiry at this
moment ?
]Mr. NixoN. You may.
iSIr. Pressman. Has there been any charge made by any witness
that has appeared before this committee that I have participated in
any espionage activity, either while a member — or rather an employee
of the Federal Government or thereafter?
]Mr. SxRirniNG. No, there has not been.
ISIr. Pressman. No.
Mr. Stripling. There has not to my knowledge.
]Mr. Pressman. May that be shown on the record ?
Mr. Nixon. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. I believe the testimony that the chairman is re-
ferring to is that testimony given on August 3, 1948, by Wliittaker
Chambers in which he said, in speaking of an underground apparatus
of Connnunists who are operating within the Government :
The head of the group, as I have said, was, at first, Nathan Witt. Other mem-
bers of the group were Lee Pressman, Alger Hiss, Donald Hiss, Victor Perlo,
Charles Kramer.
Now, I ask you — also Henry Collins, and also Harold Ware.
1024 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
I ask you, Mr. Pressman, are you acquainted with Whittaker
Chambers ?
Mr. Pressman. For the same reasons that have been given before,
Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer.
Mr. Stripling. Mv. Chairman, I have here two photographs, one
which appeared in the July 1931 issue of New Masses, a photograph
of Whittaker Chambers.
I show this to you, Mr. Pressman, and ask you if you can identify
that person as either Whittaker Chambers, George Crosley, or known
to you only by the name of Carl [handing photograph to witness] ?
Did you know this individual by any of those names ?
Mr. Pressman. Mv. Chairman, for the same reasons given before, I
decline to answer.
Mr. Stripling. You decline to identify the person at all; is that
correct ?
Mr. Pressman. I say I decline to answer the question for the same
reasons I have given before.
Mr. Stripling. I also have here, Mr. Pressman, a ])hotogra]5h which
was taken by the Associated Press on August ?), 191S, here in Washing-
ton, of Whittaker Chambers wdien he testified before this committee.
I ask you, Mr. Pressman, if 3^ou have ever seen that individual ?
(Mr. Stripling hands photograph to Mr. Pressman.)
Mr. Pressinian. ]\Ir. Chairman, for the same reasons that I have gi vcjO
before, I decline to answer the question.
Mr. Stripling. Let the record show that Mr. Appell, an investigator
for the committee, is also present.
Do you know an individual by the name of Alger Hiss, Mr. Press-
man ?
Mr. Pressman. Mr. Chairman, for the same reasons which I have
given before, I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Stripling. Donald Hiss?
Mr. Pressman. For the same reasons I have given before, I decline
to answer that question.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Victor Perlo ?
Mr. Pressman. Mr. Chairman, for the same reasons — for simplic-
ity, can I merely at this point say, in answer to that question and to
others of similar character, the same response for the same reasons?
Would that be satisfactory?
Mr. NixoN. That is satisfactory.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Charles Kramer ?
Mr. Pressman. For the same reasons, the same response.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Henry Collins ?
Mr. Pressman. For the same reasons, the same response.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know Harold Ware ?
Mr. Pressman. For the same reasons, the same response.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know John Abt ?
Mr. Pressman. For the same reasons, the same response.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever know an individual by the name of
George Crosley ?
Mr. Piuessman. For the same reasons, the same response.
Mr. Stripling. When you were General Counsel of the Rural Re-
settlement Administration, Mr. Pressman, who was the director or the
head of that agency ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1025
Mr. Pressman. I believe the record will show that it was Rexford
Tugwell, who was the Administrator of the Resettlement Administra-
tion.
Mr. Stoipling. When you were General Counsel of the AAA, who
was the director of that department ?
Mr. Pressman. May I correct the record, INIr. Stripling i
I was not General Counsel ; I Avas Assistant General Counsel.
Mr. Stripling. Yes, I am sorry.
Mr. Pressman. The General Counsel at that time was then Jerome
X. Frank, now a member of the Circuit Court of Appeals of the Second
Circuit of New York.
The Administrator of the AAA had a series of successors. I think,
first, it Avas George N. Peek; secondly, I believe it was Chester Davis,
Avho, I believe, now is a member of the Federal Reserve Board in St.
Louis.
Mr. Stripling. How long Avere you general counsel of the CIO i
Mr. Pressman. From 1936 until February of 1948.
Mr. Stripling. You were Avell acquainted with Phillip INIurray, Avere
you not?
Mr. Pressman. Mr. Chairman, I think the record is quite obvious.
Mr. Murray Avas the head of the CIO while I was general counsel.
And if pressed to ansAver the question, I will say, consistent Avith my
other responses, that for the same reasons I give the same response.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know William Green ^
Mr. Pressman. Mr. Chairman, again I should think that the record
Avould indicate that I was general counsel to the CIO. And being
general counsel to the CIO I would liaA'e had occasion to meet with
Mr. William Green, president of the American Federation of Labor.
But for consistency's sake, I should say that for the same reasons I
give the same response.
Mr. Stripling. Well, now, Mr. Pressman, it is very important to me
hoAA- A'ou ansAver the question. If you — I did not understand j^our
objections to be that you refuse to answer the question before the com-
mittee. You refused to answer certain questions on certain grounds.
Mr. Pressman. I belicA^e the essence of my position is that my per-
sonal associations are matters of my personal concern, and for the
reasons given that my response would be what I have giA-en.
Mr. Stripling. That is the reason I asked you about Avhether you
knew Mr. Murray and Mr. Green, because that is not a question of
personal association. It is a matter of public record.
- Mr. Pressman. Therefore, the record would speak for itself, Mr.
Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. I would like to have your position on it. Do you
decline to ansAver it ?
Mr. Pressman. I think you Avill find, as a matter of record, that in
the position I occupied, it is highly unlikely that I Avould not liave
met Mr. Phillip Murray or Mr. William Green.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever been to Boston ?
(At this point, Mr. Pressman and Mr. Cammer confer.)
Mr. Pressman. I should say, Mr. Chairman, for the same reasons,
the same response to that question.
80408 — 18 ^34
1026 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
M]', Stripling. Have you ever been in the Pennsylvania Railroad
station in New York City?
Mr. Pressman. Mr. Chairman, for the same reasons I give the same
response to that question.
Mr. Stripling. What are j^our objections to answering that ques-
tion, Mr. Pressman?
Mr. Pressman. I believe my counsel has stated them.
Mr. Stripling. You stated to the committee why you refused. Will
you state to the committee why you refuse to say whether you ever
have been in the Pennsylvania station in New York City?
(At this point, Mr. Pressman and Mr. Cammer confer.)
Mr. Pressman. For all reasons that have been given, Mr. Chair-
man, that the stenographer can read from the record.
Mr. Stripling. What specific grounds are you giving for refusing
to answer that question ?
Mr. Pressman. All of the grounds that have been given, Mr. Strip-
ling. There were four reasons why I was giving the response that I
would decline to answer your question.
Mr. Stripling. Restate them in detail in response to that question.
Mr. Pressman. Can my counsel restate the objections?
Mr. Stripling. No, you restate them ; you are testifying. Your
counsel is not testifying.
Mr. Pressman. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that the reasons which
I have ascribed have been on the advice of counsel. At this moment
I am testifying as a layman. I think I am entitled to have my counsel
state the legal grounds for which I am giving my response.
If Mr. Stripling insists that I, as a layman, give legal answers, I
think that is highly unfair.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Pressman, I would ask you to consult with coun-
sel and then state the grounds upon which you are refusing to answer
the question. Have you ever been in the Pennsylvania Railroad sta-
tion in New York City?
Mv. Pressman. Mr. Chairman, I have made my observation. I
would like to have the viewpoint of the chairman as to whether I am
supposed to give legal answers when appearing as a layman as a
witness.
Mr. Nixon. Now, tlie Chair will state that he can see possibly some
reason for the witness refusing to answer some of the questions which
have previously been put by the chief investigator. The committee
recognizes valid constitutional objections to questions which involve
constitutional points. But on this particular matter, the question
which has been raised, "Have you ever been in the Pennsylvania Rail-
road station in New York City?" I think that the witness is somewhat
overstepping his rights to raise constitutional objections to questions,
and for that reason the Chair would like to have the witness consult
with counsel and state exactly what constitutional grounds he has for
I'ef using to answer that (piestion.
(At this point, Mr. Pressman and Mr. Cammer confer.)
Mr. Pressman. Mr. Chairman, in a spirit of cooperation, I beg to in-
form Mr. Stripling that last niglit at 1 a. ul, I was in the Pennsylvania
Railroad Station in New York City to take the train to get here this
morning.
Mr. Nixon. I want to state to the witness that the questions to be
put by the chief investigator involving various matters during the
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1027
course of this lieaiing, that the Chair would appreciate it if the witness
would be responsive to those questions which, obviously, do not involve
constitutional rights, and raise his objections to those which do.
The Chair is aware of the fact that the witness has probably as good
a knowledge of his constitutional grounds as any person could have,
but certainly the Chair does not want to alloW' the hearing to become
completely "farcial, and the Chair would, therefore, appreciate the
witness, at least, showing the consideration of answering questions
which, obviously, do not raise constitutional grounds.
Mr. Pkessman. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate your viewpoint, and I
shall endeavor to adapt myself to it. I do submit this: I make two
observations. In the hrst place, I think Mr. Stripling should also show
the same consideration to the witness, because I do not know the
purpose-
Mr. Striplixg. May I say something?
Mr, Pressmax. Let me tinish, please.
I do not see any purpose being served in asking me wdiether I knew
Mr. Philip Murray and Mr. William Green, in view of the position
I have occupied.
Secondly. I would like to say that I have made clear in the reasons
that I have given, and I am sure that the committee appreciates this
point, that inquiry into my associations, personal associations wdth
other individuals, is a matter that I consider, for the reasons I have
given, to be a matter of my personal concern, and I have objection to
answering inquiries into that field.
Now, if an inquiry is being made initially as to where I Avas at a
certain time, or whether I did appear at a certain place, and it is
preliminary to an inquiry as to whether I have association with other
individuals at such and such a place, I submit that the reasons that
I have given for refusing to answer any inquiries as to my associations
apply with equal force to the preliminary question.
I should not be put in a position of simply asserting my rights and
my privileges at the second stage, because I believe, under the law,
I am entitled to assert them at any stage in that field of inquiry.
With those observations, I should be delighted to adapt myself to
the pleasure of the committee and be as fully informative as I can be.
Mr. Striplixg. The point I would like to find out is whether you are
refusing to answer all questions or refusing to answer certain ques-
tions.
Mr. Pressmax, That is not the case, I am glad that that is clarified,
Mr, Stripling, I would say this to you : Rather than being adverse to
answering all questions, I would appreciate inquiry into what I, as a
public servant for several years, as general counsel for the CIO what
1 then did, consistent with what I believed to be the principles and
the objectives of the jobs that I then held and the trust that had been
placed in me,
Mr. Nixux, Proceed, Mr. Stripling. I think the wdtness and coun-
sel have reached an understanding as to how the questions will be
handled.
Mr. Striplixg. Do you know Earl Browder ?
Mr, Pressmax'. For the same reasons that I have given, Mr. Chair-
man, I decline to answer that question,
Mr. Striplixg, Do you know Simon Gerson ?
Mr. Pressmax", For the same reasons, the same response.
1028 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Gerliart Eisler ?
Mr. Pressman. For the same reasons, the same response.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Nathan Gregory Silvermaster ?
Mr. Pressman. For the same reasons, tlie same response.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know an individual by the name of J'. Peters?
Mr. Pressman. For the same reasons, the same response.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know an individual by the name of Isidore
Boorstein ?
Mr. Pressman. For the same reasons, the same response.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know an individual by the name of Alex-
ander Stevens?
Mr. Pressman. For the same reasons, the same response.
Mr. Stripling. Those are all the questions I have.
However, I would like to read the testimony of Whittaker Chambers
again, as he referred to Mr. Pressman, and ask him if he has any
comment.
Mr. Chambers testified on August 3 :
The head of the group, as I have said, was at first Nathan Witt. Other mem-
bers of the group were Lee Pressman, Charles Kramer.
Do you have any comment to make on that testimon}'?
Mr. Pressman. I have none.
Mr. Stripling. Those are all the questions I have.
Mr. Nixon. That concludes the questions of the committee. Thank
you, Mr. Pressman. Thank you. Mr. Counsel.
The next witness, Mr. Stripling.-
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Nathan Witt.
Mr. Witt. Just a minute, Mr. Stripling. Please, may I have these
different people identified?
Mr. Nixon. Yes; we have identified them for the record. We have
identified these people for the record. I will identify them again for
3'our benefit.
This is the court reporter who
Mr. Witt. That is unnecessary.
Mr. Nixon. This is Mrs. Poore, who is the editor to the committee ;
Mr. Appell is one of the committee's investigators ; Mr. Russell is one
of the committee's investigators; Mr. Stripling is the chief investiga-
tor ; and you know me.
Mr. Witt. Mr. Nixon, of California.
Mr. Stripling. Will you stand and be sworn, Mr. Witt ?
Mr. Nixon. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about
to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Witt. I do.
Mr. Nixon. Be seated, please.
TESTIMONY OF NATHAN WITT, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
HAROLD CAMMER
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Witt, jou are here in response to a subpena
served upon you on August 18 by Stephen W. Birmingham, calling for
your appearance in the committee's chambers this morning at 11
o'clock ; is that correct ?
Mr. Witt. Well, may I say this, Mr, Stripling?
As a matter of fact, the subpena was not served on me.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1029
Mr. Stripling. It was not?
Mr. Witt. Mr. Birmingham came to my office in New York while I
was in Vermont, and my partner here, Mr. Cammer, called me in Ver-
mont, and told me that Mr. Birmingham was there w4th a subpena,
and asked me whether I wonld appear without a subpena, and I told
Mr. Cammer to tell Mr. Birmingham that I would be here.
Mr. Stripling. You are appearing in response to a subpena ?
Mr. Witt. The one I have here was given to me by Mr. Cammer.
Mr. Stripling. You are here in response to a subpena ?
Mr. Witt. I am not here in response to a subpena.
Mr. Stripling. Why are you here, then ?
Mr. Witt. I am here, because Mr. Cammer told me that the com-
mittee had issued a subj:)ena for me, and I am here, and I told him
that I would be here. I just wanted the record to show
Mr. Nixon. Off the record.
(Discussion was had outside the record.)
Mr. Cammer. Mr. Nixon, may it appear that for all purposes of this
hearing this morning we concede and assume that Mr. Witt is here in
response to a subpena issued, as identified by Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Did you accept service for him, Mr. Cammer?
Mr. Cammer. Yes, sir ; I did. I was authorized to do so, and did so.
]Mr. Stripling. That is all right.
Now, Mr. Witt, will you state your full name and present address?
]Mr. Witt. My name is Nathan Witt, W-i-t-t, and my home address
is 100 West Seventy-seventh Street, New York City 24, and my office
address is 9 East Fortieth Street, New York City 16, N. Y.
Mr. Stripling. What is your occupation ?
Mr. Witt. I am a lawyer.
Mr. Stripling. Where were you born ?
Mr. Witt. I was born in New York City, State of New York,
United States.
Mr. Stripling. What vear ?
Mr. Witt. 1903.
]Mr. Stripling. Mr. Witt, were you ever employed in the Federal
Government ?
Mr. Witt. I was. I was, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Would you state for the record in chronological
order the various positions you held in Government?
Mr. Witt. I was first employed by the Federal Government in the
Agricultural Adjustment Administration in the month, I think it was,
of August 1933 — it may have been July. I was there until February
1934. at which time I joined the legal staff of the old National Labor
Relations Board, established under Public Resolution No. 44, pur-
suant to the National Industrial Recovery Act.
I was with the old Board until the Wagner Act became law on
July 5, 1935, at which time I, together with the other members of the
staff of the old Board, was transferred to the staff of the Board set
up under the Wagner Act. Until December of 1935 I was an attorney
on the staff of the NLRB.
At that time I became assistant general counsel of the NLRB, and
remained such until November 1937, at which time I became secretary
of the Board and remained such until- December of 1940. That ter-
minated by resignation my work experience with the Federal
Government.
1030 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. What did you do before you entered the Federal
Government?
Mr. Witt. Before I entered the Federal Government I was in
private practice in New York City.
Mr. Stripling. When did you begin private practice, Mr. Witt?
Mr. WiiT. I gTaduated from the Harvard Law School in June 1932
and entered private practice immediately. I remained in private
l^ractice until I joined tlie staff of the AAA in 1933, as I said.
Mr. Stripling. And vou were at Harvard during what vears?
Mr. Witt. 1929 to 1932.
]\Ir. Stripling. Where did you live when you were in AVashington?
Mr. Witt. I lived on Connecticut Avenue, 3000 Connecticut, in
Washington for a while, and then
Mr. Stripling. Is that Cathedral Mansions ?
Mr. Witt. I think that is what it was called, Mr. Stripling.
Let me think a minute as to where I lived thereafter. I think there-
after I lived on Mount Pleasant Street. I had several addresses
tliereafter, Mr. Stripling. I do not know whether you want me to
identify them.
Mr. Stripling. Do you recall those places ?
Mr. Witt. I think I can.
Mr. Stripling. Yes; I would like to have them.
Mr. Witt. Thereafter, I lived — oh, I am not sure I remember th(3
name of the community — I think it was called Crest wood. It was
just over the border of Maryland, just over the border from the Dis-
trict. I am not sure of that name. I lived there a while, and then I
lived on Farragut Street, over toward Georgia Avenue, and then I
lived on Fort Stevens Drive. I think that was my last address in
Washington.
Mr. Stripling. You were general counsel of the NLKB at one time,
were you not?
Mr. Witt. No; I was never general counsel of the NLRB. As I
have stated, Mr. Stripling, I was assistant general counsel from De-
cember 1935 to November 1937. I was never general counsel. Mr.
Charles Fahj^ was general counsel of the Board at the time I was
there.
Mr. Stripling. When you took your first employment with the Gov-
ernment in the AAA who recommended you for your job ?
Mr. Witt. Mr. Lee Pressman.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Pressman.
Did you ever own an automobile ?
Mr. Witt. Yes ; I have owned automobiles.
Mr. Stripling. In the District of Columbia ?
Mr. Witt. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Do you recall how many automobiles you owned in
the District of Columbia ?
Mr. Witt. I owned — I think the first car that I owned was an old
Nash, and then I owned — I forget what year that was — an old road-
ster, and then I owned a 1937 Plymouth; then I owned a 1939
Plymouth.
Mr. Stripling. When you were employed in the AAA, Avere you in
the same office with Alger Hiss ?
(At this point, Mr. Witt and INIr. Cammer confer.)
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1031
Mr. Nixon. Let the record show that counsel is consulting with the
witness.
Mr. Cammer. Mr. Chairman, I object to the question on grounds
that, first, inquiries into Mr. Witt-'s associations, afliliations, opinions,
ideas, and conscience are without the scope of any jurisdiction of this
committee under the first amendment; second, that the subject matter
of this inquiry is without the jurisdiction of this committee by reason
of the fact that the judicial power of the United States is vested ex-
clusively in the courts under article III of the Constitution; third,
on the ground that this committee is illegally constituted by reason
of the i^resence thereon of one John Kankin, who holds an alleged
seat from Mississippi, he having been elected thereto in violation of
the provisions of the fourteenth amendment; fourth, on the ground
that this inquiry and the subject matter thereof, as stated by the chair-
man, is in violation of Mr. Witt's rights under the sixth amendment
to trial or hearing b}' judicial process.
I think Mr. Witt will state another ground of objection in addition
to that.
Mr. Nixon. Do you join in all those objections?
Mr. Stripling. Do you join in all those objections? You will state
another one?
Mr. Witt. I join in those, and I also must decline to answer that in
that it violates my rights under the fifth amendment, in that the an-
swer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. In other words, you have stated these reasons for
refusing to answer whether or not you were associated in an official
way with an individual employed in the same branch of the Govern-
ment as you were at the same time ; is that correct ?
JNIr. Witt. That is correct, Mr. Stripling.
Mv. Cammer. May we from here on in, Mr. Chairman, use the
formula, "Same response for the same grounds"?
Mr. Nixon. In every case where it is applicable.
Mr. Cammer. Yes, indeed ; where applicable.
Mr. Nixon. But I want to instruct the witness that he will be ex-
pected to answer questions which do not involve those grounds, as he
has previously.
Mr. Witt. Yes.
Mr. Cammer. May we go off the record ?
Mr. NixoN. Off the record.
(Discussion was had outside the record.)
Mr. Nixon. On the record.
Mr. Stripling. Now, Mr. Witt, when you were employed in the
AAA where was your office located ?
(At this point Mr. Witt and Mr. Cammer confer.)
Mv. Witt. I think I had at least two offices, Mr. Stripling, two
that I remember. I had one office in the original Department of Agri-
culture Building — whatever that was called, I do not quite remember.
Mr. Stripling. The main Agriculture Building?
Mr. Witt. The main Agriculture Building, where the Secretary was
located. I think the Government was in the process of building that
tremendous building right behind it. I think it was called the South
Agricultural Building; and while I was there that building was com-
pleted, or at least parts of it were, and I moved over there. I do not
1032 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
remember, of course, the room numbers or exactly what part of the
buildings.
Mr. Stripling. Did you occupy an office by yourself ?
Mr. AViTi\ I do not remember that. As far as the original office
was concerned, Mr. Stri]:)lino; — I now recall we had some kind of cubby
holes, some kind of makeshift arrangements in one of the corridors
off the side somewheres, but I do not recall whether I occupied an office
by myself.
Mr. Stripling. Was Lee Pressman in the same office with you?
(At this point Mr. Witt and Mr. Cammer confer.)
Mr. Witt, You are talking about the original office ?
Mr. Stripling. In either of the offices that you had in the AAA, was
Lee Pressman in the same office with you ?
(At this point Mr. Witt and Mr. Cammer confer.)
Mr. Witt. I am sorry, Mr. Stripling, I must decline to answer that
question on the same grounds.
Mr. Stripling. You cannot even answer whether or not Lee Press-
man
IVfr. Witt. That is correct, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Was general counsel of the AAA ?
Mr. Witt. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. How about Harold Ware, was he in the same office
with you ?
Mr. Witt. May I say this, Mr. Stripling, to show you the difficulty
here, in a sense, to continue what Mr. Cammer points out, you now
ask whether I can tell you whether I occupied the same office with
him in the AAA. May I point out to you that Mr. Pressman was not
the general counsel in AAA.
Mr. Stripling. Well, Mr. Pressman was in AAA, was he not ?
Mr. Witt. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. How do you know that ?
Mr. Witt. As I have already told you, Mr. Stripling, Mr. Press-
man recommended my job in the AAA.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Lee Pressman ?
Mr. Witt. Yes ; I do.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Harold Ware, or did you know Harold
AVare ?
Mr. Witt. I am sorry, Mr. Stripling, I must decline to answer that
on the grounds I have already stated.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know Alger Hiss ?
Mr. Witt. The same answer, if I may.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know Whittaker Chambers ?
Mr. Witt. The same answer, if I may.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know Victor Perlo?
Mr. Witt. The same answer, if I may.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know Charles Kramer ?
Mr. Witt. The same answer.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know Earl Browder ?
Mr. Witt. The same answer.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know Gerhart Eisler?
Mr. Witt. The same answer.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know Henery Collins ?
Mr. Witt. The same answer.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1033
Mr. Stripling. Did you know an individual b}' the name of Donald
Hiss?
Mr. Witt. The same answer.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know an individual by the name of George
Crosley, C-r-o-s-l-e-y ?
Mr. "WiTT. The same answer, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever hear of Whittaker Cliambers?
Mr. Witt. Yes; I did, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. You read about him in the newspapers recently ?
Mr. Witt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Have you seen his pictures in the newspapers?
Mr. Witt. Yes ; I have.
Mr. Stripling. I show you a picture of Mr. Chambers taken on
August 3, 1948, when he appeared in Washington. Have you ever
seen this individual? [Photograph handed to Mr. Witt.]
Mr. Witt. The same answer, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Here is an earlier picture which appeared in the New
Masses in July 1931. Do you recognize this individual? [Photo-
graph handed to Mr. Witt.]
Mr. Witt. Same answer.
Mr. Stripling. I show you a picture of J. Peters, alias Alexander
Stevens, alias Isidore Boorstein. Did you ever see this individual?
[Showing picture to Mr. Witt.]
Mr. Witt. The same answer.
Mr. Nixon. Did you know an individual by the name of Carl,
C-a-r-1, in that same period, 1934 to 1937 ?
Mr. Witt. The same answer.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Witt, are you now or have 3'ou ever been a
member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Witt. The same answer, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Those are all the questions I have.
Mr. Nixon. Thank you.
Mr. Witt. Just a minute, Mr. Nixon, if I may consult counsel.
(At this point Mr. Witt and Mr. Cammer confer.)
Mr. Cammer. Thank you very much, sir.
Mr. Witt. Thank you, Mr. Nixon, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. NixoN. All right. That concludes the hearing.
(Whereupon, at 11 : 20 a. m., the subcommittee adjourned.)
HEARINGS EEGAEDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
TUESDAY, AUGUST 24, 1948
UxiTED States House or Representatives,
Subcommittee of the Committee ox
Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. C.
executive session ^°
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10 : 05 a. m., in the com-
mittee room of the Committee on Un-American Activities, Hon. Rich-
ard M. Nixon, presiding.
Committee member present : Representative Richard M. Nixon, pre-
siding.
Staff members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator;
Louis J. Russell, William A. Wheeler, Donald T. Appell, investigators ;
and A. S. Poore, editor, for the committee.
Mr. Nixon. Let the record show that this is a meeting of a subcom-
mittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities, meeting in
executive session on Tuesday, August 24, 1948.
The member present is Mr. Nixon; and also present are Mr.
Stripling, chief investigator, and Mrs. Poore, editor to the committee.
The first witness will be Mr. Louis Budenz.
Will you please raise your right hand, Mr. Budenz ?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will
be the"^ truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Budenz. I do,
Mr. Nixon. Be seated, please.
All right, Mr. Stripling.
TESTIMONY OF LOUIS BUDENZ
ISIr. Stripling. Mr. Budenz, you have appeared before the commit-
tee in recent weeks, have you not ?
Mr. Budenz, Yes, sir.
]Mr. Stripling. And vou have been sufRcientlv identified and for
that reason we will proceed with the questions.
On August 3, 1948, Whittaker Chambers, who is now senior editor
of Time magazine, appeared before the full committee, and testified
concerning the activities of the so-called underground apparatus of
"Te.stiraonv taken in executive session and released during the pul)lic iiearing, August 25,
1948.
1035
1036 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
the Communist Party that operated within the Federal Government
in the years 1934, 1935, '36, and '37. At that time, according to Mr.
Chambers' testimony, he was a member of the Communist Party, and
acted in the capacity of courier for the group.
He testified that he was brought in contact with these people through
a person known as J. Peters, who he described as being the head of the
underground movement.
Among tlie persons who comprised this elite group, as he referred
to it, were Lee Pressman, employed in the AAA ; John Abt, likewise
employed in the Government — I do not recall the agency; Nathan
Witt, also employed in the Government ; Alger Hiss, employed in three
A's; Donald Hiss, Henry Collins, Charles Kramer, alias Krevitsky,
and Victor Perlo, and Harold AVare.
Now, his testimony was to the effect that Harold Ware was setting-
up this group.
Now, I ask 3^ou, Mr. Budenz, if you are acquainted with any of the
individuals who comprise this group, and I will call the roll: Lee
Pressman.
Mr. Budenz. Yes, sir, personally.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Pressman to be a member of the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Budenz, Yes, sir.
Mr. Striplinc.. Nathan Witt.
Mr. Nixon. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Stripling. Lee Pressman, you say, that he is a memljer of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Budenz. Yes, sir, I have met him as such.
Mr. Stripling. You have met him as such ?
Mr. Budenz. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Nathan Witt.
Mr. Budenz. Yes, sir ; I have, never met him, but I have heard his
name repeatedly mentioned in the political committee and national
headquarters. When I say, "repeatedly," I do not mean too frequently,
but enough. I know that he was a member of the party.
Mr. Stripling. When you were the managing editor of the Daily
Worker, and located at party headquarters, you were given to under-
stand by conversations that you had with party functionaries that
Nathan Witt was a Communist Party member ?
Mr. Budenz. Yes, sir. This was particularly in the period of 1940
and 1941, when I was a little bit more than a managing editor of the
Daily Worker; I was one of the few Communists in national headquar-
ters that was out in the open. I will explain that a little bit later,
perhaps.
Mr. Stripling. John Abt.
Mr. Budenz. John Abt, I have never met, to my recollection, but
I know he is a member of the Communist Party from frequent refer-
ences, and from the fact that his sister, Marian Bachrach, was present
in a number of conferences as Abt's representative.
Mr. Stripling. You are speaking now of Communist Party con-
ferences?
Mr. Budenz. Communist Party conferences'.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Charles Kramer ?
Mr. Budenz. No, sir ; I do not know him.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1037
Mr. Strii'Lixg. Do you know him by the name of Charles Krevitsky ?
Mr. BuDExz. Krevitsky? Yes; I have heard that name, of course.
The name Kramer seemed familiar to me.
Mr. Striplixg. But you cannot identify him at this time.
Mr. BuDExz. No.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Henry Collins ?
Mr. BuDEXz. I have just heard the name.
Mr. Stripling. You do not know him personally ?
Mr. BuDENZ. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Victor Perlo?
Mr. BuDENz. No, I do not know him; no, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know Harold Ware?
Mr. BuDENZ. Yes, sir. I knew^ Harold Ware prior to my being a
member of the Communist Party. I knew him as the son of Mother
Ella Reeve Bloor, and I was introduced to him by Robert B. Dunn,
as an active Communist.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know J. Peters?
Mr. BuDEXz. Very well, indeed ; that is, I mean to say, when I say
"very well,*' I know him frequently and extensively as an underground
Communist leader.
Mr. Striplixg. Do you know Alger Hiss ?
Mr. BuDEXz. I do not know him personally, but I have heard his
name mentioned as a Communist.
Mr. Nixon. Will you go into detail, Mr. Budenz, concerning how
you heard Mr. Hiss' name mentioned in Communist circles.
Mr. BuDEXz. The original mention, I cannot go into detail on that,
because it is just a remembrance, but in the period of 1940 and 1941,
to Avhich I referred, at the national headquarters there were onl}^ a
few Communist leaders who were in the open ; that is, Robert Minor
was acting secretary of the party ; Roy Hudson, and Foster, to a degree,
but he was ill ; myself. Because of that fact I had to look more than
usually into the defense of the party, and the defense of the Daily
Worker as the Communists called it.
In that connection, from time to time, although at that moment I
cannot give you all the cases, we review^ed people that we could call
upon to aid us either where there was a defense matter involved, or
where there might be a defense matter.
For instanced in the case of Eugene Dennis, I give that because it
strikes me immediately, about which I have testified before the com-
mittee, that was the case involving Gerhart Eisler — Eugene Dennis
came to me during this period to request me to get a man here in Wash-
ington who was in public office to work — to erase from his record this
technical difficulty, as it was called. That was the record w^hich I
disclosed under which Dennis had used, as I said, an Irish name in
subversive activities.
At that time Dennis said to me, explaining why he had to call upon
this man, that people like Alger Hiss, Nathan Witt, and Edwin Smith,
wdio was then a member of the National Labor Relations Board, or
was about to leave it — at any rate, he had been associated with the
National Labor Relations Board — that people of that character could
not be called upon as they had been in the past to aid the party in its
defense in Washington because they themselves were under a certain
cloud ; that is to say, that all the people in governmental positions in
1038 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Wasliingtoii who were friendly to the party, or under Communist
discipline, were in difficulties at that time.
Therefore, we would have to find people who had not generally been
associated with the party to help us out in these things. That is an
instance of two or three that came up during that period.
Mr. Nixox. You are absolutely certain that Alger Hiss' name was
mentioned?
Mr. BuDf:xz. Oh. yes; I recognized ]SIr. Hiss' name before it was
here mentioned publicly; that is, I know that his name was men-
tioned, along with Nathan Witt and Edwin Smith, so far as I recall.
Mr. Stripling. There are three people who are prominent in the
Government who were considered to be close friends of the party, is
that correct? Would that be a fair statement of it or not?
Mr. BuDENZ. Who were under Connnunist discipline.
Mr. Stripling. You would say "under Communist discipline"?
Mr. BuDENZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixox. AVould you go farther than to say that they were simply
close friends of the party (
Mr. BuDENZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. Striplix^g. Did you know Donald Hiss? Did you ever hear
his name?
Mr. BuDEXz. I have heard of his name, but I cannot be as accurate,
or rather cannot be as exact about him as about Alger Hiss.
Mr. Nixox. Now, can you recall any other specific incident which
you have heard where the name of Alger Hiss was mentioned in Com-
munist circles?
Mr. BuDENz. There is one other, and that was at the time of the
Amerasia case, the exact date of which I cannot give you — it was 1944
or 1945 — but that is a rather remote reference; that is to say, in a
political committee meeting, when that case broke, it was mentioned
that Lieutenant Roth — his first name starts with an A — I do not know
whether it is Andrew or Arnold, or what — who was a member of the
part}', had recommended the possibility of getting Mr. Hiss to use
some influence in that matter. I do not knoAv what disposition was
ever made of that, and that is why I say it is a rather round-about
reference.
Mr. Nixox. But, Mr. Hiss' name was mentioned in that connection?
Mr. BuDENz. That is right ; it was.
Mr. Nixox. Well, now, from your experience as an active leader in
the Communist Party during that period, did you at that time come
to the conclusion that Mr. Hiss was a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. BuDEXz. Oh, yes; so I regarded him always.
Mr. Nixox. You always regarded him as a Communist?
Mr. BuDEX^z. That is correct.
Mr. Nixox. Did others in the party, others in the leadership or the
circles that j^ou knew, did they regard him as a member of the party?
Mr. BuDExz. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixox. What period was this, approximately ?
Mr. BuDExz. Well, the period that I have specifically in mind was
1940 and 1941.
Mr. Nixox. 1940 and '41.
Mr. BuDExz. Yes, sir.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1039
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss, in Communist Party circles, at that time was
regarded as a member of the party ?
Mr. BuDENZ. Yes, sir. I mioht not have been able to recall inci-
dents like this always because I was not thinking about the matter,
but I always regarded him as a Communist; that is, I mean to say,
that what confirmed me in it I would not have always been able to
bring up.
Mr. Nixox. Yes.
Mr. Striplixg. Do you know Whittaker Chambers?
Mr. Bt'DEXz. I only heard his name at the time he left tlie party;
that is to say. we were advised, or at least I was advised confidentially,
that he was a renegade. They also mentioned another name in his
connection, but I cannot recall" it, probably a party name; but, at any
rate, that a man named Whittaker Chambers had left the party. We
had those names from time to time, but I had never met him, though.
Mr. Striplixg. Did you ever hear of a person named George
Crosley ?
Mr. BuDEX'z. George Frost ?
'Mr. Striplixg. C-r-o-s-l-e-y.
Mr. BuDEXz. No, sir ; I never did.
Mr. Nixox. Were you in the party in 1936?
Mr. BuDEXz. Yes, "sir; I joined the party in August 1935, and then
openly joined it in October 1935.
Mr. Nixox^ Were you in the open party then?
Mr. BuDExz. Oh, yes; always from October on.
Mr. Nixox. Then, you would not have known the underground cover
name of ]\Ir. Chambers.
Mr. BuDEXz. I would not.
Mr. Nixox'. The name — does the name Carl mean anything to you ?
Mr. BuDEX'z. No, sir; it does not. There was a name mentioned
along Avith Mr. Whittaker's name — Mr. Chambers' name — but I can-
not recall it. Evidently it was a party name, but George Crosley
suggests nothing to me.
Mr. Nixox'. Those are all the questions that I have at this time on
this matter. We will go off record now.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Nixox. Let us go on the record again.
Mr. Budenz, did you ever tell the investigative agencies of the Gov-
ernment about Mr. Hiss' reputation in Communist circles ?
Mr. BuDEX^z. Yes, sir; I told the FBI, if I recollect correctly. It
was upon their own inquiry. I told them, however, that Mr. Hiss'
name was known to me and, as I recall it, I told them it was knoAvn to
me as a Communist. I do not know whether I went into these details
that I went into here today, but there was no detailed inquiry of me
by them about him, except in that way.
Mr, Nixox\ Can you recall as nearly as possible when you did that?
Mr. BuDEXZ. Well, I did not put any particular emphasis upon the
matter. Many names have been asked me, too, but it seems to me that it
was within the last year. It may have been even a year and a half ago,
but I think within the last year. No ; it may have been a year and a
half ago.
Mr. Nixox. Mr. Budenz, is it possible that when Mr. Hiss was
referred to in Communist Party circles as being under Communist
1040 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
discipline, that it was simply a case of the Communists claiming as
their own a person whom they considered to be a liberal ? For example,
Is it not possible that they might have referred to Mrs. Roosevelt as
being a Communist, or did they refer to, say, Leon Henderson, as
being a Communist. Understand, I wish you to point out if there is
a difference in the way in which friends of the party were considered,
and those under discipline were considered, because I think there is a
distinction there that should be draw^n, if there is a distinction. Will
you go into that briefly?
Mr. BuDENZ. There is a very definite distinction. Neither Mrs.
Roosevelt, nor Mr. Henderson, incidentally, was ever referred to as a
Communist.
Mr. Nixon. I am sure they were not.
Mr. BuDENZ. A man seeking political ©ffice in Indiana once wrote
me thinking that Henderson was a Communist, and trying to get a
job for him, but I disabused him of that. But there is this difference :
that is, the Communists did refer to those under discipline in a differ-
ent manner from the way they do those who are just friendly to them,
and whom they wish to use, and whom they think they can influence.
Of course, here is a remote possibility that Mr. Hiss' name might
have been used incorrectly, but I have never found that to happen
among Communists. When reporting to themselves, they are always
as exact as possible. In fact, sometimes they are painfully exact.
In regard to the relationship of a certain individual to the party,
and certainly so far as the constant impression on me was concerned,
it was that Mr. Hiss w^as equivalent to a member of the Communist
Party. The phrase "Communist Party member" so far as I refer to
it was never used, but that he was under Communist discipline was
used, and he was associated with Nathan Witt and Edwin Smith. Of
course, this impression was strengthened in my mind, in fact — I knew
Mr. Smith to be a member of the party ; I had met him as such.
Mr. Nixon. In other words, this impression was gathered not simply
from one casual mention but from several mentions of Mr. Hiss as being
under Communist discipline.
Mr. BuDENZ. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. When you were a member of the Communist Party,
Mr. Budenz, and the managing editor of the Daily Worker, were you
ever approached by Jacob N. Golos to make a trip to Washington to
see an individual who was employed in the Government?
Mr. Budenz. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Who was the person he asked you to see?
Mr. Budenz. William Ludwig Ulhnann.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever see Ulhnann ?
Mr. Budenz. No, sir. I told Mr. Golos at that time that tliat was
utterly impossible with my duties at the Daily Worker. We were
short-staffed, and I could not go on such short notice.
]Mr. Stripling. Why did he want vou to see Ulhnann?
Mr. Budenz. He said that it had 'to do witli work in the Office of
Strategic Services. That is all he said : "I want you to see a man by
the name of William Ludwig Ullmann in Washington; to go as fast
as possible, in regard to our work in the Office of Strategic Services."
Mr. Stripling. Now, early in your testimony you mentioned that
you knew J. Peters as the head of the underorou'nd movement. Could
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1041
you elaborate for the committee your knowledge of that activity of
J. Peters as a Communist Party functionary ?
Mr. BuDENZ. Yes, sir. You will note in my book "This Is My Story"
that Mr. Peters appears there, and that I refer to him as the man of
many names.
In fact, I also speak, I think, about his reminding me of the Cheshire
cat, or something, because he always had an artificial smile. But what
I particularly noted there was his many names, Steve Miller, Jack
Koberts, and many other names within a short period of time.
Mr. Nixon. Will you name as many of those names as you can
remember,
Mr. BuDENZ. Yes, sir. The thing is, of course, I learned some later,
but the names that I recall immediately there is 1936 and 1937 were
brought to my attention by the fact that Mr. Peters himself very
bureaucratically told me about them; that is, I had to see hhn fre-
quently on the ninth floor. He was then, I think, supposedly the
organization secretary of the party, although nobody knew him to any
great degree. AVhen I say "'nobody," most of the rank and file mem-
bers did not know him.
I would have to go up there on business, and I would say, "Comrade
Peters" — and he said, "Now, my name is Steve,'' and he would be very
abrupt about it, "Steve Miller.'". Then, later on, he told me his name
was Jack Roberts. I came home and told my wife, "I am getting dizzy
trying to keep Peters' names before me."' But either then or on other
occasions, I learned his name to be Alexander Stevens, I think Alex-
ander Goldberg, and
Mr. Stripling. Did you know him; under the name Isidore
Boorstein ?
Mr. BuDENz. I knew that was his organization name. I learned
that from some source in the party, or other. Those are all of the
names I can think of for the moment. But there were a number of
names during the course of time.
Mr. Stripling. As head of the underground, would it be the duties
of Peters to come to Washington and contact persons who were em-
ployed in the Government ?
Mr. Budenz, In 1936 and 1937, to be specific, Peters was one of the
busiest men on the ninth floor of the party. There were all sorts of
mysterious people there to see him. When I say "mysterious," they
were not accounted for^ they waited for him, and he had a certain
air of secrecy about him. That may seem strange, to put it that way,
but the thing is, for example, there were many precautions to get to
see him, and in addition to that you always had to indicate what name,
even below, within the apparatus, what name you knew him by. That
is why he was so abrupt with me when I addressed him personally by
the wrong name, because I was supposed to ask on the telephone for the
new name.
Now, the thing is, it was Peters — to give the background of it just
a moment, and it may seem a little wide of the question, but it was
Peters who advised me that the conspiratorial apparatus of the party
was the most important apparatus. He asked me when I came up
there one day, did I know the Communist Party well, and I said that
I did, I thought. Then, he told me that I did not know it at all, that
80408—48 35
1042 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
«
the part I saw was only a very small part of the party. The most
important part was the conspiratorial apparatus. That was prepara-
tory to my being introduced to the NKVD, the Soviet secret police
here in the United States, by Golos.
But Peters was known within the official apparatus and ad^ased me
himself, that he was engaged in conspiratorial work. He had to ad-
vise me so that I would understand how to approach him, how to deal
with him, and how not to approach him when it was necessary in his
v;ork.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet Elizabeth T. Bentley ?
Mr. BuDENz. Yes, sir ; I met her through Mr. Golos.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Golos introduced you to Miss Bentley ?
Mr. BuDENz. Mr. Golos introduced me to Miss Bentley after this
occasion, after he had spoken of Ullmann. He then came to me a few
days later and said that he was going to open up a new apparatus,
which would collect on all the American agents engaged in military
secrets. The first man he wanted me to check was Emanual Victor
Vop],':a.
Then he said, "It is inadvisable that you and I are together so much.
I have had to plead guilty to this Foreign Agent Act, and I have also
been engaged in activity of a similar character," and he brought me
Miss Bentley to whom he introduced, me on the street in front of the
Daily Worker office, that is, down on the street a piece, he introduced
me to her as one who was very trustworthy, was engaged in conspira-
torial work; has proved her worth, and who, in addition, was able to
take shorthand notes, and I was supposed to meet her from tune to
time and give her a report which she would take down in shorthand.
Mr. Stripling. Now, you have read in the public press the testi-
mony of Miss Bentley, or you have read stories regarding her testi-
mony.
Mr. BuDENz. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Have you seen anything in those stories reported
concerning her testimony which you have any doubt about, that you
do not believe ?
Mr. BuDENz. No, sir. Of course, I do not know of my own personal
knowledge that all of these incidents took place. But they are of a
pattern which I know to exist.
For example, I know that J. Peters was in charge of conspiratorial
work for the party. I know that Mr. Golos was not only chairman of
the control commission of the party, secretly, and directing the dis-
ciplining of the party members, but that he was engaged in this secret
work.
I know likewise that Washington was a matter of great interest to
the Communist Party, and I do know that Mr. Peters was deeply
interested in Washington. I could not follow all his contacts here,
but I know that a great part of his conspiratorial work had to do with
Washiiigton, because of observations he made to me, safeguards that
he threw on our conversations, and the like.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Budenz, we certainly appreciate your taking the
time to come to Washington and give us this testimony. That will be
all for the day.
Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1043
Mr. Nixon. On the record. The next witness will be Mrs. Martha
Pope. Now, if you will stand up, please, Mrs. Pope, I would like to
swear you in.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mrs. Pope. I do.
Mr. Nixon. Will you<be seated, please.
TESTIMONY OF MARTHA POPE
Mr. Nixon. Mrs. Pope, would you give us your present address,
where you liA^e at the present time ?
Mrs.' Pope. Where I live ?
Mr. Nixon. Yes.
Mrs. Pope. 758 Gresham Place.
Mr. Nixon. In Washington, D. C. ?
Mrs. Pope. In Washington, D. C.
Mr. Nixon. And what is your occupation ?
Mrs. Pope. Domestic.
Mr. Nixon. Domestic. Who do you work for at the present time?
Mrs. Pope. Mrs. D. H. Dorsey.
Mr. Nixon. How many years, Mrs. Pope, approximately, have you
worked for your present employer?
Mrs. Pope. T'.velve years next month.
Mr. Nixon. Twelve years next month. In other words, you went
to work for your present employer in 1936. This is 1948, so that would
be about 1036 that vou went to work.
Mrs. Pope. Either in '36 or '35, the latter part, September 29, I
think, 1935.
Mr. Nixon. September 29, 1935.
Mrs. Pope. I think it was that.
Mr. Nixon. When you went to work.
Mrs. Pope. Sure.
Mr. Nixon. Who did you work for before you worked tor your
present employer ?
Mrs. Pope. Well, I Avorked for Mrs. Pasternak; I just do not re-
member where. She lived oui in, I don't know — she has a store on
Connecticut Avenue.
Mr. Nixon. A store on Connecticut Avenue. How long did you
work for her ?
Mrs. Pope. I did not work very long for her then.
Mr. Nixon. Do you remember ?
Mrs.- Pope. I do not remember,
Mr. Nixon. How many months, approximately ?
Mrs. Pope. Just about 2 months or something like that.
Mr. Nixon. Two months in the summer?
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. I see.
Mrs, Pope. Then, I worked for Mrs, Veitch,
Mr. Nixon. How long did you work for her?
Mrs. Pope. About 6 months.
Mr. Nixon. Whom did vou work for before that?
1044 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mrs. Pope. Mrs, Hiss.
Mr. Nixon. Mrs. Hiss. Well, now, when did you leave Mrs. Hiss'
employment ? When did you leave there, do you recall ?
Mrs. Pope. I do not recall just when I left there but it was — I don't
remember.
Mr. Nixon. Well, let me get at it this way. Do you recall where
the Hisses were living when you last worked for them?
Mrs. Pope. On P Street.
Mr. Nixon. On what?
Mrs. Pope. On P Street.
Mr. Nixon. On P Street. You worked for Mrs, Hiss when she was
living in the P Street house, then ?
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Where had she lived before they moved to P Street ?
Mrs. Pope. Before they lived on O Street, and then they moved from
O Street to Twenty-eighth Street.
Mr. Nixon. Did you work for them when they lived on Twenty-
eighth Street?
Mrs. Pope. I did.
Mr. Nixon. That was an apartment, was it not ?
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. And after they left Twenty-eighth Street, do you re-
call when they moved from there ?
Mrs. Pope. They moved from Twenty-eighth Street to P Street.
Mr. Nixon. To P Street?
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. And how long did you work for them while they lived
on P Street. That is, how long do you recall working in the P
Street house ?
Mrs. Pope. I just do not remember.
Mr. Nixon, Just to the best of your recollection, if you can recall,
was it a year or was it a month or something ?
Mrs. Pope. It was longer than a month.
Mr. Nixon. Longer than a month.
Mrs. Pope. I just do not remember how long it was.
Mr. Nixon. Do you remember when they moved from that apart-
ment on Twenty-eighth Street to P Street. Did you help them to
move ?
Mrs. Pope. I was working with them ; yes.
Mr. Nixon. I see. Did you help them pack their dishes and things
when they were moving at that time ?
Mrs. Pope. They left the apartment furnished ; they moved to that
P Street house, it was furnished.
Mr. Nixon. I see. And they left their Twenty-eighth Street apart-
ment furnished ?
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr, Nixon. I see.
Mr. Stripling. Do you remember the time of year that was when
they moved from the apartment on Twenty-eighth Street to the
house on P Street ?
Mrs. Pope. I don't know whether it was spring or fall; I don't
remember that.
Mr, Nixon. You just do not recall what time that was that they
moved ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1045
Mrs. Pope. No ; I do not.
Mr. Nixon. Do you remember whether it was the spring or the
winter ?
Mrs. Pope. It was not the winter, it was either the spring or the fall.
I just do not remember now.
Mr. Nixon. I see.
]Mr, Stripling. Mrs. Pope, when did you first go to work for the
Hisses ?
Mrs. Pope. Soon after they were married.
Mr. Stripling. Well, about what year was that?
Mrs. Pope. That, I cannot tell you. I don't remember.
Mr. Stripling. Was it 1929 or 1930?
Mrs. Pope. No.
Mr. Stripling. 1931, 1932? Were you working for them in 1932?
Mrs. Pope. I doubt it ; I don't know. I had been working for them
off and on nearly 5 years.
Mr. Stripling. iS early 5 years?
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. And to the best of your recollection you left them
some time in 1935, is that right?
Mrs. Pope. Yes, either 1935 or 1934, 1 don't
Mr. Stripling. 193i or 1935 ?
Mrs. Pope. Either one.
Mr. Stripling. You do not remember which one?
]Mrs. Pope. No ; I do not.
Mr. Stripling. WHien you worked for them, what were your duties ?
Did you cook ?
Mrs. Pope. I did general house work.
Mr. Stripling. General house work. Did you also cook?
Mrs. Pope. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. What time did you get there in the morning?
Mrs. Pope. 7 : 30.
]Mr. Stripling. 7 : 30 in the morning. What time did you leave in
the afternoon?
Mrs. Pope. 7 : 30 or 8 o'clock.
Mr. Stripling. You were there all day ?
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Did they have any children ?
Mrs. Pope. They had one boy, Timothy.
Mr. Stripling. Timothy. About how old was Timothy wlien you
began to work for them?
Mrs. Pope. When I first went there Timothy was a little boy.
Mr. Stripling. When you left, was Timothy in school?
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. How old would you say he was then ? Was he 8 or 9
years old ?
Mrs. Pope. Yes ; I think about that.
Mr. Stripling. How many bedrooms did they have in the apartment
on Twenty-eighth Street?
Mrs. Pope. Two.
Mr. Stripling. Two bedrooms. What floor was this apartment on ?
Mrs. Pope. If I am not mistaken, it was the fourth floor.
Mr. Stripling. Fourth floor. You walked up, did you?
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
1046 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Did it have any kind of a porch, a fire escape?
Mrs. Pope. Just a little fire escape on the side.
Mr. Stripling. Was it concrete or iron ?
Mrs. Pope. Iron.
Mr. Stripling. Iron fire escape?
Mrs. Pope. The floor, I think, was concrete ; I don't remember, to
tell you the truth.
Mr. Stripling. But there was a little porch on the side ?
Mrs. Pope. A little fire escape.
Mr. Stripling. Now, did you work for them at this apartment until
they left?
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Were you there with them until they left the apart-
ment ?
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. When you moved, when they left the apartment,
they went over to P Street ?
Mrs. Pope. P Street.
Mr. Stripling. And moved into a house, did they not ?
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Was that house on a corner?
Mrs. Pope. I do not remember the corner house. I do not know
whether it was a corner house or not.
Mr. Stripling. But they did move into this house.
Mrs. Pope. They moved to a P Street house.
Mr. Stripling. And it was already furnished ?
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. In this apartment on Twenty-eighth Street, when
they moved out, did they take the furniture ?
Mrs. Pope. I do not remember them taking the furniture.
Mr. Stripling. Do you remember their taking any furniture ?
Mrs. Pope. I do not remember taking any furniture. All I remem-
ber is their going to this P Street house.
Mr. Stripling. Did you go back afterward, after they went to the
P Street house ?
Mrs. Pope. No.
Mr. Stripling. Who moved into the apartment ?
Mrs. Pope. I don't know.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever hear them discuss that ?
Mrs. Pope. No ; I never heard them discuss that.
Mr. Nixon. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Nixon. We will resume now, Mrs. Pope, if you have had a little
rest.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have reading glasses? Do you use glasses
when you read ? .
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have them with you ?
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Stripling Would vou put them on, please.
Mr. Nixon. D'd vou work every day or did you have a certain
number of days off?
Mrs. Pope. I worked every day except Thursday.
Mr. Nixon. Thursday was your day off ?
COMMUNIST ESPIOjSTAGE 1047
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Did you work Saturday?
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall during that period just before you left,
the 3^ear before 3^ou left the Hisses, that you were out because of illness
or anything of that sort?
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. When was that? Were you out for a long .time?
Mrs. Pope. I was out for, it might be, 2 or 3 weeks, I think, some-
thing like that. It was a good time that I was out.
Mr. Nixon. Do you remember the time that was ? Where were they
living during that period ?
Mrs. Pope. Twenty-eighth Street.
Mr. Nixon. At the apartment; I see. But you do not recall any
time when you were out after they moved over to P Street?
Mrs. Pope. I do not remember.
Mr. Nixon. You worked there all the time when you were there at
P Street. Thank you.
Go ahead, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Mrs. Pope, I show you a picture of an individual
holding a baby, and I ask you, I show you two pictures of the same
individual, and in both pictures he is holding a baby. I ask you to
examine these photographs very carefully [photographs handed to
witness]. If you would like to walk over to the light, you can do so,
at the window, if you can see better.
I am also going to show you a large picture of an individual. That
is the same person, the person holding the baby ; he is the same person
as appears in this large picture [showing photograph to witness].
This picture, however, was taken 12 years later, taken 14 years later;
this picture is taken 14 years later than the ones in which he is holding
the baby.
Now, did you ever at either the apartment on Twenty-eighth Street
or at the home on P Street, did you ever see that person or that baby ?
Mrs. Pope. I do not remember.
Mr. Stripling. You do not remember ever seeing it ?
Mrs. Pope. No ; I do not.
Mr. Stripling. Now, the baby's mother is a very dark woman, and
they visited in the home of Mr. and Mrs. Hiss on P Street. They
were there for several days.
Mr. Nixon. They stayed overnight. Do you recall seeing them?
Mrs. Pope. No ; nobody stayed overnight, as I remember.
Mr. Nixon. Not while you were working at P Street ?
Mrs. Pope. No.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Hiss said they were there, and Mrs. Hiss, too,
and, of course, we know that they were there, and we are trying to
find out whether you were working for them when these people were
guests at the home.
Mrs. Pope. I do not remember.
Mr. Stripling. You have never seen this person ?
Mrs. Pope. Not as I know.
Mr. Nixon. Just take your time, Mrs. Pope, because it is very im-
portant. If you do remember or if you have any recollection at all,
which you could indicate to us at this time, it is very important that
you do so.
1048 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mrs. Pope. She didn't say it was in my time working for her ;
did she ?
Mr. Stripling. I beg your pardon ?
Mrs. Pope. She did not say it was in my time working for them,
because I don't remember the baby at alL
Mr. Stripling. Do you remember the man ?
Mrs. Pope. No ; I do not.
Mr. Stripling. Never saw him ?
Mrs. Pope. I only saw it in the picture recently in the paper.
Mr. Stripling. Who was the picture you saw in the paper ?
Mrs. Pope. I mean, here recently.
Mr. Stripling. Who was the person that you saw ?
Mrs. Pope. Chambers; is it not?
Mr. Stripling. The picture you are referring to is Whittaker
Chambers.
Mrs. Pope. That is the reason I say I saw his picture in the paper
recently.
Mr. Stripling. Does this look anything like the person you saw in
the paper ? Is that the person you saw in the paper ?
Mrs. Pope. I mean just this in here.
Mr. Stripling. Well, is that the person you saw in the paper ?
Mrs. Pope. It might be : I don't know.
Mr. Stripling. Does it look like him ?
Mrs. Pope. It looks like — something like.
Mr. Stripling. Does this person look like the one you saw in the
paper?
Mrs. Pope. It does not.
Mr. Stripling. It does not look like the one you saw in the paper?
Mrs. Pope. No; just this looks something like him, that is all.
Mr. Stripling. This one looks something like him, but these do
not look anything like him.
When Mr. Hiss was living at the apartment on Twenty-eighth
Street, what kind of an automobile did he have ?
Mrs. Pope. A roadster.
Mr. Stripling. What kind of a car was it?
Mrs. Pope. It was with a back, you know, little coupe, with the back
seat like — rumble seat.
Mr. Stripling. A Ford?
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. A Ford rumble seat. What color was it?
Mrs. Pope. I think it was black with one of those tan tops, I think.
Mr. Stripling. Now, when you moved to the P Street house, did
he still have the Ford car ?
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Did he still have the Ford car ?
Mrs. Pope. That is the only one I remember.
Mr. Stripling. Did he ever have anj^thing else while you worked
for him ?
Mrs. Pope. No.
Mr. Stripling. That is the only car that he had.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I want the record to show that the three
pictures that have been shown to the witness were all pictures of
Whittaker Chambers, and he is holding his daughter who at that time
was 8 months old.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1049
Now, I show you another picture, and ask you if you ever saw this
person, either in the apartment or in the house or anytime you
were employed by Mr. Hiss. Did you ever see that person?
(Mr. Stripling shows photograph to Mrs. Pope.)
Mrs. Pope. No; I don't remember seeing him.
Mrs. Striplincx. You never remember seeing that person?
Mrs. Pope. No.
Mr. Stripling. When did you last see Mr. Hiss ?
Mrs. Pope. When I last seen Mr. Hiss he lived at the Thirtieth
Street house.
Mr. Stripling. No; but Avhen did you last see him? When was
the last time that you saw Mr. Hiss ?
Mrs. Pope. When they lived at Thirtieth Street.
Mr. Stripling. No ; when was the last time you saw Mr. Hiss, Mr.
Alger Hiss ?
Mr. Nixon. Not where was the last time you worked for him.
]Mrs. Pope. No ; I am not saying — I never worked at the Thirtieth
Street house.
Mr. Stripling. When was the last time you saw him ?
Mrs. Pope. I am telling you now that was the last time, because I
went there when the little boy got hurt, and I went to the house and
saw the boy and I saw him then, and I have not seen him since.
Mr. Stripling. When was the last time you talked to him?
Mrs. Pope. Then.
Mr. Stripling. At that time, you have not talked to him on the
telephone ?
Mrs. Pope. No; I have not.
Mr. Stripling. When was the last time you saw Donald Hiss?
Mrs. Pope. I have not seen Donald Hiss for a long while.
Mr. Stripling. Two years?
Mrs. Pope. Longer than that.
Mr. Stripling. When was the last time you saw Mrs. Alger Hiss ?
Mrs. Pope. When I went back to see the boy when he got hurt.
Mr. Stripling. On Thirtieth Street?
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. When was the last time you saw him ?
Do you think that was the last time ?
Mrs. Pope. When I went back.
Mr. Nixon. Mrs. Pope, have you discussed this matter of your testi-
mony here this morning with your employer, your present employer ?
Mrs. Pope. I just told him this morning that I remembered that I —
I remembered the P Street house.
Mr. Nixon. You discussed it with Mrs. Howard, too, did 3^ou not ?
Mrs. Pope. I discussed it with her coming down.
Mr. Nixon. She asked you some questions. Who else have you dis-
cussed this with ?
Mrs. Pope. No one else.
Mr. Nixon. You are sure of that ?
Mrs. Pope. I am sure of that.
Mr. Nixon. The first time you have discussed it was with Mrs.
Howard and your present employer ?
Mrs. Pope. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. You have never talked on the telephone with Mr. Hiss ?
Mrs. Pope. No.
1050 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. Or last year?
Mrs. Pope. No; I have not seen Mr. Hiss or talked to him — wait a
minute. I talked to Mrs. Hiss about several years ago. She wanted
me to come back to work for her. But that was all in the case. That
is all. She just wanted me to come back, and did not say anything
else.
Mr. Nixon. Did you talk to a friend of Mr. Hiss' lately ?
Mrs. Pope. No.
Mr. Nixon. You have not ?
Mrs. Pope. I have not.
Mr. Nixon. You are sure of that ?
Mrs. Pope. I am sure of that.
Mr. Nixon. Did you talk to an attorney for Mr. Hiss?
Mrs. Pope. I have not. I don't know his attorney.
Mr. Nixon. They have not come to see you ?
Mrs. Pope. No ; nobody has come to see me.
Mr. Nixon. And as far as this car is concerned, they had the car,
the Ford, all the time that you worked for them ?
Mrs. Pope. All the time that I worked for them.
Mr. Nixon. They did not have a new car ?
Mrs. Pope. No ; they did not.
Mr. Nixon. And you recall that you worked for them in the P Street
house for, as you recall it, 4 or 5 months ?
Mrs. Pope. It might have been longer, but all I can remember is that
it is about that. I don't know.
Mr. Nixon. Was that the summer, do you recall ? Was it the sum-
mer or the winter or the fall when you were working at P Street, do
you recall ?
Mrs. Pope. I do not remember. It might have been. I just don't
remember that.
Mr. Nixon. Yes. Now, I think we can get that point pretty well
determined. You said you went to work for your present employer
12 years ago, in September.
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. How do you remember that? Your employer knows
that ; is that the point ?
Mrs. Pope. I remember that.
Mr. Nixon. How do you remember that ?
Mrs. Pope. Because I remember the time when I went there; that
is all.
Mr. Nixon. And you know it was 12 years ago ?
Mrs. Pope. Sure.
Mr. Nixon. Well, that would be, you see, September 1936; you see
that would be 12 years ago, and you remember that that is wliat
it was.
Now, between the time that you left the Hisses and went to work
in September 1936, will you again tell us how you worked, for whom
you worked, and about how long you worked for each, as best as you
can recall ? Just take your time.
Mrs. Pope. I worked for Mrs. Veitch.
Mr. Nixon. What is that ?
Mrs. Pope. I worked for Mrs. Veitch.
Mr. Nixon. How long did you work for her?
Mrs. Pope. I don't know. It is about 6 months probably.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1051
Mr. Nixon. About 6 months. All right, who else did you work for?
Mrs. Pope. Mrs. Pasternak.
Mr. Nixon. And for her how long did you work?
Mrs. Pope. About 2 months. I think that is all.
Mr. Nixon. About 2 months. In other words, those are the only
two people you worked for ?
Mrs. Pope. That is all.
]\Ir. Nixon. That would be 8 months, so, according to that, you left
the Hisses probably at the end of 1935, is that correct, in about De-
cember 1935 ; does that sound about right to you?
Mrs. Pope. I do not know. It could have been. I do not know, to
tell you the truth. It is so long that I could not remember that, just
what time I left them.
]\Ir. Nixon. But you did not take a vacation between the time you
left the Hisses and went to work for these other people ?
Mrs. Pope. Yes ; I was idle for a while.
Mr. Nixon. About how long were you idle ? That is the point.
Mrs. Pope. About a couple of months or something like that.
Mr, Nixon. About a couple of montlis of idleness. That would be
about 10 months. So, you could have left them in October, and you
do not recall when you worked at P Street, whether it was summer
or winter or fall ? You do not recall anything occurred — ^you do not
recall anything about the type of work you did ? Do you remember
whether you had to put up the shutters for the wintertime, or whether
there was snow which was tramped in ?
Mrs. Pope. There was not any snow,
Mr. Nixon. No snow.
Did the Hisses ever have any guests who stayed overnight at the
P Street house ?
Mrs. Pope. Not as I know of.
Mr. Nixon. Well, you would know because you would have to make
the beds, would you not ?
Mrs. Pope. Well, sometimes I would make the beds — no, I don't
think they had anybody, not in my time. If they had anybody it was
probably after I left over there.
jSIr. Stripling. Mrs. Pope, if Mrs. Chambers, who is, as I have said,
a dark person — she has real black hair — her complexion is almost sun-
tanned, I would say, very dark — and this picture which I show you,
two pictures, of a man holding a child — that was their baby — Mr. and
Mrs. Chambers with the baby — now, Mrs. Hiss and Mr. Hiss, Mr.
Chambers and Mrs. Chambers, all of them agree that they visited with
the Hisses and they agree that it was 3 or 4, maybe 5 days and nights
that they stayed there. Now, if when you were working there, if
they had had a person with a small baby visiting them for, say, 4 or 5
days, you would remember it, would you not ?
Jilrs. Pope. It seemed like I would, but I don't remember that.
Mr. Stripling. There is no reason why you should..
Mr. Nixon. We don't want 3^011 to remember a thing that you do not.
Mrs. Pope. No.
Mr. Stripling. I do not think you were employed there at this time,
but I want you to be sure that you would remember that.
Mrs, Pope. It looked like I would, but I don't remember seeing that
baby.
1052 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. You never had any recollection of any person with
a baby coming in and staying with them ?
Mrs. Pope. No.
Mr, Nixon. Not while you were with them ?
Mrs. Pope. No.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know who went to work for the Hisses after you
left?
Mrs. Pope. No ; I do not.
Mr. Nixon. You have not any recollection at all?
Mrs. Pope. No ; I do not.
Mr. Stripling. Off the record.
(Discussion was had outside the record.)
Mr. Nixon. Thank you, Mrs. Pope. You have been a very coopera-
tive witness, and we appreciate your having taken the time off from
your work to give the committee the benefit of your recollection of these
incidents.
Mr. Stripling. If any of this comes to your mind, just call us, just
call the Capitol, and ask for the Committee on Un-American Activi-
ties. We are just trying to find out the facts.
Mr. Nixon. We just want the facts, the truth, whatever it is. We
are not trying to — we want to get the truth as far as you recall it, and
we appreciate your having come in this morning.
Mrs. Pope. Thank you.
Mr. Stripling. Mrs. Pope, this is an executive session. In other
words, this means that what happens in here is not for the public. If
newspapermen ask you what you said or this, that, or the other, it is
an executive session. You are not supposed to say what you said in
here.
Mr. Nixon. Just tell them you are not saying anything.
Off the record.
(Discussion was had outside the record.)
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Cherner is the next witness, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Cherner, will you please stand ?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Cherner. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Be seated, please.
All right, Mr. Stripling.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH CHERNER
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Cherner, the purpose of this executive session
of the committee is to determine certain facts regarding the sale or
disposition of a Ford automobile which was owned by Alger Hiss. We
have examined the records in the Department of Motor Vehicles for
the District of Columbia, and as a result of that examination there are
certain matters which we desire to clear up.
Now, Mr. Russell, will you proceed to ask Mr. Cherner the questions ?
Mr. Russell. Mr. Cherner, will you state your address, first?
Mr. Cherner. My business address?
Mr. Russell. Your home address.
Mr. Cherner. IGoO Juniper.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1053
Mr. Russell. Mr. Cherner, how long have you been in Washington,
D. C?
Mr. Cherner. Since December 24, 1911.
Mr. KussELL. Were you born in the United States?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
JNIr. Russell. Where were you born ?
Mr. Cherner. I was born in Russia.
Mr. Russell. What city ?
Mr. Cherner. It is a little town called Kadin.
Mr. Russell. What year were you born and what was the datf?
Mr. Cherner. The 23d of March 1898.
Mr. Russell. And when did you come to the United States ?
Mr. Cherner. December 24, 1911.
Mr. Russell. 1911?
Mr. Cherner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Russell. You are a naturalized citizen of the United States?
Mr. Cherner. Yes.
Mr. Russell. When did you become naturalized ?
Mr. Cherner. I believe in 1926.
Mr. Russell. 1926 ?
Mr. Cherner. I believe it is somewhere around there.
Mr. Russell. Do 3^ou remember where ?
JSIr. Cherner. In Washington.
Mv. Russell. In Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Cherner. Yes.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever lived in any citv outside of Washing-
ton. D. C. ?
Mr. Cherner. Well, off and on ; yes.
Mr. Russell. When you arrived in the United States at what port
did you arrive?
Mr. Cherner. We arrived in Baltimore.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Cherner, have you ever been acquainted with an
individual by the name of Alger Hiss?
Mr. Cherner. I don't think so.
Mr. Stripling. What was your answer?
Mr. Cherner. No ; I don't think so.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ?
Mr. Cherner. No ; I mean I don't know him.
Mr. Stripling. You don't know him ?
Mr. Cherner. I may know him when I see him as a customer, but I
don't believe I have ever seen him.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever seen his picture ?
Mr. Cherner. In the papers; yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. You have examined the newspapers?
Mr. Cherner. Yes. I mean I read the paper, of course, but I would
not know his picture if I see him now.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever been acquainted with an individual
known as J. Peters ?
Mr. Cherner. AVho ?
Mr. Russell. J. Peters.
Mr. Cherner. J. Peters? I did not get the name.
Mr. Russell. J. Peters.
Mr. Cherner. I don't know him ; no.
.•LIB .on j/k:;
1054 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Russell. You don't. You have never been acquainted with
J.Peters?
Mr. CiiERNER. J. Peters; no.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever known an individual by the name of
Alexander Stevens ?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever known an individual by the name of
Isidore Boorstein ?
Mr. Cherner. Isidore Boorstein ?
Mr. Stripling. Isidore Boorstein. Do you know Mr. Boorstein?
Is this Mr. Boorstein [showing witness a photograph] ?
Mr. Cherner. I don't think so.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know that individual ?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. You never saw him ?
Mr. Cherner. No ; I did not.
Mr, Stripling. Mr. Chairman, this is a picture of J. Peters, alias
Alexander Stevens, alias Isidore Boorstein. The witness has testified
that he does not know this individual.
Mr. Nixon. The witness testified that he has never seen the
individual.
Mr. Cherner. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. He does not know him ?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Cherner, are you a member of any organizations
at the present time ?
Mr. Cherner. Yes.
Mr. Russell. Would you name them ?
Mr. Cherner. I am a member of the Masonic Lodge, member of the
Zionist Organization — in fact, president of the Zionist Organization
in Washington.
Mr. Russell. What other organizations?
Mr. Cherner. Washington Board of Trade, Variety Club. I have
to look through my wallet and see.
Mr. Russell. Are yoti a member of the Biro-Bidjan committee?
Mr. Cherner. I never heard of them.
Mr. Stripling. Biro-Bidjan.
Mr. Cherner. Biro-Bidjan, that is the Russian — no, sir.
Mr. Russell. Are you a member of that committee ?
Mr. Cherner. Never have been ; no, sir.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever been a member of that committee?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Are you acquainted with Samuel Lichtenstein ?
Mr. Cherner. Yes.
Mr. Russell. Is he a member of the Biro-Bidjan committee?
Mr. Cherner. Is he what?
Mr. Russell. Is he a member of the Biro-Bidjan committee?
Mr. Cherner. I could not tell you ; I don't
Mr. Russell. Did you ever attend any meetings of the Biro-Bidjan
committee ?
Mr. Cherner. I don't
Mr. Russell. You were never elected to any office in the Biro-Bidjan
committee ? i
Mr. Cherner. No, sir. J_ \
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1055
Mr. Russell. Mr. Clierner, have you ever been a member of the Com-
munist Party of the United States?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Did you ever make application to become a member?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever been solicited to join the Communist
Party of the United States ?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Chairman, I would like to have Mr. Cherner write
the name and address of this person whose name I will give him at
least 12 times.
Mr. Nixon. Yes'; that is all right.
Mr. Russell. The name is William Rosen, and the address is 5405
Thirteenth Street NW.
Mr. Cherner. Do you want it 10 times ?
Mr. Russell. Yes.
(The witness wrote the name and address as directed.)
Mr, NixoN. You may proceed, Mr. Russell.
Mr. Russell. Do you know an individual named Benjamin Bialek?
Mr. Cherner. Yes.
Mr. Russell. Are you well acquainted with him ?
Mr. Cherner. Well, I know him ; yes.
Mr. Rl'ssell. How long have vou known him ?
Mr. Cherner. Oh, I have known him over 30 years.
Mr. Russell. Were you familiar with an address where Mr. Bialek
lived, which was located at 5405 Thirteenth Street NW. ?
Mr. Cherner. I know where the place is, but I don't know where he
lives.
Mr. Russell. Did you ever visit him at that address, as far as you
can recall?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir; never.
Mr. Russell. Do you know an individual by the name of William
Rosen ?
Mr. Cherner. I don't think so.
Mr. Russell. Tliis particular William Rosen is in the dry-cleaning
business.
Mr. Cherner. I don't believe I know him. I may know him when
1 see him, but olfhand I would say "No."
Mr. Russell. You have no recollection that you ever sold an auto-
mobile to William Rosen ?
Mr, Cherner. Well, I happen to know that we sold him a $25 car
when I saw it in the papers, but I don't remember.
Mr. Russell. You don't remember?
Mr. Cherner. I don't remember selling it to him. •
Mr. Russell. What papers did you see that in ? According to the
newspapers ?
Mr. Cherner. Yes ; I saw it in the Saturday News. Someone called
my attention to it, and I just read about it.
Mr. Russell. You do not remember the transaction at all?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. Russell. Do you recall whether or not a 1929 Ford roadster was
ever left on the premises of the company which you operate for the
purpose of resale of the automobile to William Rosen?
Mr. Cherner. I do not recall ; no, sir.
1056 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Russell. You do not remember anyone by the name of William
Rosen at all ?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. But you are acquainted with Benjamin Bialek?
Mr. Cherner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Russell. Is he the owner of the Petworth Pharmacy ?
Mr. Cherner. I think he is a part owner.
Mr. Russell. Part owner. I have no further questions.
I have one other question.
Did Mr. Bialek ever send anyone to you for the purpose of buying
an automobile?
Mr. Cherner. To buy which automobile, this particular automobile
or any automobile ?
Mr. Russell. Any automobile.
Mr. Cherner. Oh, j^es; we did business with them; they bought
cai'S from us.
Mr. Russell. But did he ever send any other individual to purchase
a car from you ?
Mr. Cherner. He ma}^ have recommended, I am not positive.
Mr. Russell. Well, do you know whether or not he did? You say
you are not positive. Do you have any positive recollection that he
ever did send someone to you for the purpose of purchasing an auto-
mobile?
Mr. Cherner. I cannot say definite ; no, sir.
Mr. Russell. That is all I have.
Mr. Stripling. What do Mr. Cherner's records show regarding this
sale of this automobile?
Mr. Rltssell. We have another witness. We want the record to
show that we went through the records, and we cannot find any records
which show anything relating to 'this particular automobile at all.
Mr. Stripling. Did you go through the records of Mr. Cherner?
Mr. Russell. We went through the records with the treasurer.
Mr. Stripling. There is no record of that transaction?
Mr. Russell. No.
Mr. Cherner. That was in 1036; was it not ?
Mr. Stripling. That is right ; 19:>G.
Mr. Cherner. We probably would not keep records that far back.
Mr. Russell. Well, they had a great number of other records.
Mr. Nixon. That record was missing from the other records?
Mr. Russell. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. You just said, Mr. Cherner, that you do not have any
records that go that farl)ack.
Mr. CirERNER. I do not know about that.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know whether you had any records for that
month ?
Mr. Cherner. I do not know.
Mr. Nixon. You just said you probably did not have records that go
that far back.
]\fr. Cherner. I said we do not have records that go that far back.
Mr. Nixon. But Mr. Russell went over there and found records for
that month. How did he find those records?
Mr. Cherner. I do not know that.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1057
Mr. Nixon. Well, your testimony is that you do not have — you are
not trying to tell us that you do not have records for that month. But
the records for that particular transaction are missing; is that correct?
Mr. liissELL. That is right. We cannot find a record of that.
However, we have a little more testimony; we have another witness
who will testify on that i)oint.
Mr, Stripling. Well, Mr. Chenier, you were the head of the con-
cern, were you not?
Mr. Cherner. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. You were the head of it in 1936 ?
Mr. CiiERNER. Oh, yes.
Mr. Stripling. You have no recollection whatsoever regarding this
transaction ?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Cherner, do you often take in cars with just paying
no money at all to i>eople who brought them in ?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Nixon. You did not. Very seldom does somebody come in and
give you a car to get rid of it.
Mr. Cherner. No, sir. I do not believe we took this one in for
nothing. We must have paid something for it.
ISIr. Nixon. You realize the records show that you did take it in for
nothing.
Mr. Cherner. I do not know what the record shows, but I can tell
you this : I do not know any car that we have ever gotten for nothing.
We have always paid something for it. Now, it may be that where
people come in and they trade a car in and they say, ''Here, take this
car oil ni}' hands, and give me something for it, and some tlay I will
buy a car."
Mr. Nixon. This was not a trade-in.
Mr. Cherner. I do not know.
Mr. NixoN. You do not know how it could happen that you took it
in for nothing?
Mr. Cherner. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Very unusual. If this car was taken in for nothing
it w^ould be very much of an unusual thing. If it was taken in for
nothing, would you be very much surprised?
Mr. Cherner. Very much surprised.
Mr. Nixon. In your business you have to pay for everything you
get.
Mr. Cherner. Either pay for it or issue a credit.
Mr. Nixon. But in that case you would be selling a new car to the
individual who had brought the car in.
Mr. Cherner. Well, let me explain to you, not always. Sometimes
we have had cars given to us in trade for some future date, and people
never shoAvetl up, and we still have the credit on the books.
Mr. Nixon. Now, as cars go, Mr. Cherner, you, as a used-car dealer,
and a very big one, you probably can help the committee on this point.
Do you know approximately what the value, shall we say, what you
might term the junk value, of a '29 Ford car would have been in 1936,
a roadster ? What is the lowest value that you might put upon it ?
80408—48 36
to?
1058 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Cherner. Probably about $25, and sometimes even $15. We
have sold them for junk.
Mr. Nixon. $15 ?
Mr. Cherner. Yes.
Mr. Nixon, In other words, they were worth even that for junk.
Mr. Cherner. $15, $25.
Mr. Nixon. Even if the car could not run, you could get that out of
it just for parts.
Mr. Cherner. Yes ; I think so. . . ' .
Mr. Nixon. Suppose the car was in running condition, that is,
would it still be worth about that if you were buying it ?
Mr. Cherner. Well, in those days, of course, we were selling a lot
of cars.
Mr. Nixon. I understand.
Mr. Cherner. The '29 car was practically worthless, $25, $50. It
depends on the condition of the car, of course.
Mr. Nixon. It is worth at least $25.
Mr. Cherner. Yes; it would be worth $25.
Mr. Stripling. If it were running.
Mr. Cherner. Yes; it would be worth $25.
Mr. Nixon. All right.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Cherner, I would like to show you a picture, and
ask you if you can identify the individual whose photograph appears
on this document [showing witness a photograph].
Mr. Cherner. No, sir ; I do not know him.
Mr. Russell. You have never seen that individual who resembles
that picture ?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. I will show you another picture of the same individual
and ask you if you can identify him [showing witness a photograph].
Mr. Cherner. No.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever seen anyone who resembles the man
who appears in this picture ?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Cherner, have you ever contributed any money
to the Biro-Bidjan Committee?
Mr. Cherner. I do not remember.
Mr. Russell. You do not remember ?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir. I do not remember contributing any money.
Mr. Russell. Would you say positively that you have not con-
tributed to the Biro-Bidjan Committee?
Mr. Cherner. I cannot say that, and I will tell you why, I will
explain that to you. Mrs. Bialek came to see me — it was a long time
ago, maybe 10 or 15 years ago — she was all put out because we did not
give her some money, and I do not remember what the purpose was,
and at that time they were buying cars from us.
Mr. Russell. Mrs. who ?
Mr. Cherner. Mrs. Bialek, and I remember just at that time, just
to pacify her, I do not know whether it was $25 or $50 or $100, but it
was done more or less as a gesture to a customer for good will or
something like that. Now, whether it was for Biro-Bidjan or some
other purpose, I don't know, but I cannot tell you.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1059
Mr. Russell. Mr. Cherner, would it refresh your recollection if
you were told that when this automobile was sold to William Rosen,
the address which he gave was that of Benjamin Bialek?
Mr. Cherner. Well, I would not know that because I never handled
the used-car business myself. As you know, I have got a manager'for
the used-car department.
Mr. Stripling. Who handled it ?
Mr. Cherner. In 1936 the manager was Floyd Brewer.
Mr. Nixon. You did not handle them ?
Mr. Cherner. I never handled the used car direct. I have got men
who work for me, and the manager of that department was Floyd
Brewer.
Mr. Stripling. Where is he now ?
Mr. Cherner. He is now with my brother in business in the Cherner-
Brewer Co.
Mr. Nixon. That is another business. Your brother was not in
business with you then ?
Mr. Cherner. Yes, he was working for me, together with Mr.
Brewer; but he at that time was just a used-car salesman.
Mr. Stripling. Where are they now ?
Mr. Cherner. Wisconsin Avenue.
Mr. Stripling. Cherner Motor Co. ?
Mr. Cherner. Cherner-Brewer, not Cherner ; no connection.
Mr. Stripling. Are you older than your brother ?
Mr. Cherner. Yes ; I am the oldest.
Mr. Stripling. Was he born in Russia ?
Mr. Cherner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Do you think that probably Floyd Brewer is the man
who might have handled this transaction ?
Mr. Cherner. Probably.
Mr. Nixon. You had nothing to do with it ?
Mr. Cherner. Can I ask a question ?
Mr. Nixon. Certainly.
Mr. Cherner. Didn't they give you a bill — didn't they show you a
bill ? I thought they had some kind of invoice.
Mr. Russell. They had no record of this transaction whatsoever.
Mr. Cherner. That is unusual.
Mr. Nixon. It certainly is.
Mr. Russell. Do you have any knowledge as to what happened to
the books and records for the year 1936, 1937 ?
Mr. Cherner. Well, they are all kept in the same place in the
storage room there, but I understand that they had some trouble there.
Rats would come in, and they destroyed a lot of things. We usually
do not keep our records over 5 years.
Mr. Russell. It would seem that they would keep all sales records
pertaining to i^articular car sales.
Mr. Cherner. Well, we do not keep them — we do not have to keep
them longer than 5 years. I mean, there is no point to it, and par-
ticularly a $25 car. There is nothing in it. There can be no dispute
about that.
Mr. Russell. That is aall.
Mr. Nixon. Is that all? Well, thank you, Mr, Cherner.
The next witness will be Mr. S. A. Mensh.
1060 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Mensh, will you stand and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Mensh. I do.
Mr. Nixon. Be seated.
Mr. Mensh. before you testify, I want to instruct you as to what
this hearing is about. This is a hearing of the Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities investigating Communist ac-
tivities in the United States.
As a result of our investigations, it has become very material for
us to determine what became of a 1929 Ford roadster, which we have
traced to the Cherner Motor Co. All questions that wnll be put to
you concerning this roadster are material questions, and under the
law I w^ant you to know for your own information that in the efent
that the answer that is given is proved to be false, it will subject you
to perjury.
I also want to instruct you that in the event you do not remember
concerning the transaction, you may so testify ; but if it appears later
that 3'ou have testified that you did not remember, when actually you
did, when actually you had facts within your knowledge which we
may learn through other sources indicate that you did remember that,
that also would subject you to perjury.
I wish you to be instructed on this point, because I do not want a
witness to go into a hearing without having full knovrledge of what his
rights are.
Mr. Russell, will you question the witness?
TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL A. MENSH
Mr. Russell. Will you state your full name, Mr. Mensh?
Mr. Mensh. Samuel A. Mensh.
Mr. Russell. What is your present address ; your residence address?
Mr. Mensh. 1370 Tuckerman Street NW.
Mr. Russell. When and where were you born, Mr. Mensh?
Mr. Mensh. Born in Washington, D.' C, August 30, 1904.
Mr. Russell. What is your present occupation?
Mr. Mensh. Vice president and sales manager of Cherner Motor
Co.
Mr. Russell. How long have you been associated with the Cherner
Motor Co.?
Mr. Mensh. Since August 1932.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Mensh, yesterday I showed you a certificate of
title of a motor vehicle registered in the District of Columbia. Would
you tell the committee Avhether or not you have any recollection of the
transaction to which that certificate of title pertained ?
Mr. Mensh. None whatever.
Mr. Russell. Do you know an individual named Benjamin Bialek,
or Bialek, B-i-a-1-e-k?
Mr. Mensh. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Do you know an individual' by the name of William
Rosen ?
Mr. Mensh. No, sir.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1061
Mr. Russell. Do you know an individual by the name of Alger
Hiss?
Mr. JNIensh. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Chairman, I would like to take some handwrit-
ing specimens from Mr. Mensh at this time.
Mr. Nixon. You may proceed, Mr. Russell.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Mensh, will you write the name William Rosen,
the address 5405 Thirteenth Street NW., and will you print the
"NW."?
(The witness complied with Mr. Russell's request.)
Mr. Russell. Mr. Mensh, do you belong to any organization at the
present time ?
Mr. JNIensh. I belong to Masonic Lodge, Pentalpha No. 23; I be-
long to the Kallipolis Grotto; I belong to the Amity Club. I be-
long to — well, I did belong to the B'nai B'rith, but I probably am not
a member now. I have not paid my dues for several years, and I
suppose I am still on the rolls, I do not know. Let me see now:
I think — I belonged to the Indian Springs Country Club. I do not
know whether you want that or not.
Mr, STRirLiNG. You never belonged to the Communist Party, did
you? You have never belonged to the Communist Party, have you,
Mr. Mensh ?
Mr. Mensh. No, sir; never.
Mr. Russell. You never made application to join the Communist
Party?
Mr. Mensh. No; never.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever contributed to the Biro-Bidjan Com-
mittee ?
Mr. Mensh. To the who?
Mr. Russell. Biro-Bidjan Committee. ^
Mr. Mensh. I never heard of them.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Cherner never discussed this committee with
you?
Mr. Mensh. Never discussed that with me.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Mensh, in 1936 who was in charge of used-car
sales for the Cherner Motor Co. ?
Mr. Mensh. I believe Mr. Brewer was in charge of used-car sales
at that time.
Mr. Russell. Is that Mr. Floyd Brewer?
Mr. Mensh. Floyd Brewer; yes. I am pretty certain it was he at
that time.
Mr. Russell. On that particular application which I showed you
yesterday, can you recall any of the circumstances surrounding the
execution of your signature on that document ?
Mr. JVIensh. I really cannot. We handled so many, you know, and
I have the right to sign the titles, and when the deals are made they
are brought in; they bring 5 or 6 or 10 titles. I mean they may
bring a dozen titles to me a day, and things are all made out, and
all I do is sign my name, sign my name to them.
Mr. Russell. Do you make it a practice to examine the automo-
biles to which those titles pertain ?
Mr. Mensh. No; I do now when we buy a car, understand, but
in those days we had the used car manager, and he made the trans-
1062 ■ COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
action, and then when the titles were ready to be executed, I signed
them.
Mr. Russell. According to the best of your recollection, what was
the value of a 1929 Ford roadster during the year 1936 ?
Mr. Mensh. I would say, according to the — I would say $50 ; $50,
$75.
Mr. Nixon. That was on a cash purchase ?
Mr. Mensh. I would say on a cash purchase or sale — in those days,
you know, in 1936, that roadster only delivered for around $400 or
$500 new, I think, and I can remember in 1936 and 1937 and 1938
we used to sell 1937 roadsters for $150 in those days.
Mr. Nixon. What about the trade-in value, Mr. Mensh ?
Mr. Mensh. The trade-in value would probably have been about
the same. We did not buy too many cars in those days, because there
was not much profit in buying or selling
Mr. Stripling. Used cars.
Mr. Mensh. Used cars ; that is right.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know why
Mr. Mensh. It is probably worth more now than it was then.
Mr. Nixon. Probably true.
Mr. Stripling. Have j^ou looked into this particular transaction
any yourself ?
Mv. Mensh. You mean in the newspapers ?
Mr. Stripling. Have you read anything about it ?
Mr. Mensh. You mean in the newspapers ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Mensh. I was out of town Friday. They told me it was in the
newspapers. I did not see a Washington newspaper. I was out of
town Friday, but they tell me it was in the Washington papers.
Mr. Stripling. Well, the Washington News came out with a story
that according to the records no money was received for this car.
Mr, Hiss did not get anj^thiug for it. The same day it was sold to a
man named William Rosen. Would that not be a kind of strange
transaction ?
Mr. Mensh. It would be very strange.
Mr. Stripling. You do not know where we miglit find the record ;
do you ?
Mr. Mensh. I really don't. I think this gentleman was up there
yesterday and went through a bushel of them. I think your next
witness could probably tell you more about that. He was in the office
end of it. I was only in the sales end of it. I do not recall it at all.
Ml'. Russell. I have no further questions.
Mr. Nixon. You would say a transaction in which no money was
paid to the seller would be a most unusual transaction.
Mr. Mensh. Most unusual, I woidd say.
Mr. Nixon. A Ford, a 1929 Ford, in any condition, even if it were
junk, would probably be worth $25.
Mr. Mensh. I cannot conceive of anybody walking into our place
and giving us an automobile unless you had a new car to give them.
Of course, today we have people offering to give us a used car if we
will deliver a new car.
Mr. Nixon. That is a different matter.
Mr, Mensh. That is a different proposition. But in those days $25
was a lot more than $25 is today.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1063
Mr. Nixox. Do you liave any more questions?
Mr. KussELL. I have nothing further.
Mr. Nixon. Thank you very much, Mr. Mensh. We appreciate your
comino; down.
Mr. Mexsh. Tliank you.
Mr. Nixox. The next witness will be Henry J. Gertler.
Would vou please stand, Mr. Gertler? Would you raise you right
hand?
Do 3'ou solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Gertler. That is right.
TESTIMONY OF HENEY J. GERTLER
Mr. Nixox'. I will instruct the witness, then, that every question
which will be asked during this inquiry is material to an investigation
w^hicli the committee is at present conducting, and that answers given
by the Avitness, if proved to have been deliberately false, will, of course,
subject him to perjury.
I also want to instruct the witness that if the witness on any par-
ticular question does not remember a particular transaction, he has
the right so to testify, and should so testify. But if, as a matter of
fact, he says he does not remember, when the fact appears later that
he had facts within his knowledge that show that he did remember the
transaction, that would also subject him to perjury.
I want the witness to be thoroughly instructed on what his rights
are before he begins to testify-.
Mr. Russell, would you please ask the witness the questions yoti
have.
Mr. EussELL. Will you state your full name, Mr. Gertler?
Ml'. Gertler. Henry J. Gertler.
INIr. Russell. What is vour present address, vour home address?
]Mr. Gertler. 1436 Iris Street NW., Washington, D. C.
Mr. Russell. When and where were you born, Mr. Gertler?
Mr. Gertt.er. Born in Brooklyn. N. Y., August 25, 1906.
]Mr. Russell. Wlien did you first come to Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Gertler. I think it was July of 1920.
Mr. Russell. What is j'our present occupation?
Mr. Gertler. Secretary and treasurer of the Cherner Motor Co.
Mr. Russell. How long have you been secretary and treasurer of
the Cherner JSIotor Co. ?
Mr. Gertler. 1930.
Mr. Russell. "\Mien did vou first become affiliated with the Cherner
Motor Co. ?
Mr. Gertler. Well, the Cherner Motor Co. was organized in 1930.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Gertler, have you ever known an individual by
the name of J. Peters ?
Mr. Gertler. No.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever known anyone by the name of Alex-
ander Stevens?
Mr. Gertler. No.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever known anyone by the name of Isidore
Boorstein ?
1064 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Gertler. I do not remember. I have heard the name several
times, but I do not know if I know such a person.
Mr. Russell. This particular individual is also known as J. Peters
and Alexander Stevens.
Mr. Gertler. No ; I do not know him.
Mr. Russell. Do you know Alexander Goldberg ?
Mr. Gertler. No.
Mr. Russell. Do you know Alger Hiss ?
Mr. Gertler. No.
Mr. Russell. You don't know him at all ?
Mr. Gertler. Except what I have read in the newspapers. 1
Mr. Russell. What you have read in the newspapers ? /
Mr. Gertler. Yes.
Mr. Russell. Do you know any individual by the name of William
Rosen ? This particular individual is in the dry-cleaning business.
Mr. Gertler. No; I do not remember, except the information that
you showed me yesterday.
Mr. Russell. Yes, sir.
Do you know a Benjamin Bialek or Bialek, B-i-a-1-e-k?
Mr. Gertler. I do not.
Mr. Russell. Do you know Theodore Bialek ?
Mr. Gertler. No, I do not.
Mr. Russell. Do you know Robert Bialek ?
Mr. Gertler. No, I do not.
Mr. Russell. Aaron Bialek ? Have you ever heard of an individual
by that name ?
Mr. Gertler. I have heard the name, but I swear I do not know
them.
]\Ir. Russell. You do not know them personally ?
Mr. Gertler. No.
Mr. Russell. Do you know how you heard of the name ?
Mr. Gertler. I think there is a Bialek that used to be connected
with, I think it was, the Petworth Pharmacy. I never knew the man.
Mr. Russell. You never knew him.
Mr. Nixon. Is the Petworth Pharmacy a customer of Cherner
Motors? You sold them cars?
Mr. Gertler. I would not say for sure. I am not sure. The name
strikes a chord, but I don't know the man.
Mr. Russell. You are not socially acquainted with any of the
Bialeks?
Mr. Gertler. No.
Mr. Russell. Do you recall whether or not any one of the Bialeks
ever asked you to contribute any funds to the Biro-Bidjan Committee?
Mr. Gertler. No.
Mr. Russell. Any other organization?
Mr. Gertler. No.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Gertler, yesterday I exhibited a document to you
which was a certificate of title of a motor vehicle which was issued by
the Director of Vehicles and Traffic of the District of Columbia.
Mr. Gertler. Yes.
Mr. Russell. Your name appeared on this document as a notary
public under the signature of Mr. S. A. Mensh. Do you recall signing
that document ?
Mr. Gertler. That is my signature.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1065
Mr. Russell. Do you recall any of the circumstances surrounding
the signature to this document ?
Mr. Gertler. No, I do not.
Mr. Russell. Do you recall the sale of this automobile at all ?
Mr. Gertler. No ; I do not.
Mr. Russell. The document pertaining to the sale of a Ford road-
ster, 1929 model, which bore the motor No. A-21,888,119-19-33; you
cannot recall any of the circumstances surrounding the sale of that
automobile ?
Mr. Gertler. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. In the records of your company ; how would this sale
have been recorded at that time?
Mr. Gertler. It would have been recorded on a car invoice and in
the sales records.
Mr. Russell. Would there have been a sales invoice made out for
this particular sale?
Mr. Gertler. Yes.
Mr. Russell. What other documents would have been executed in
connection with the sale of this automobile ?
Mr. Gertler. The title.
Mr. Russell. Was this the title which was turned over to the Cher-
ner Motor Co.? In other words, w^as a title identical to this ever
turned over to the Cherner Motor Co. at any time?
Mr. Gertler. I imagine so. That is a photostatic copy of it.
Mr. Russell. What disposition would have been made of that title?
Mr. Gertler. That title would — it contains an application there
which would have gone to the Traffic Bureau for processing.
Mr. Russell. Yesterday, we examined certain records which were
available in your office in an effort to locate the sales invoice pertaining
thereon to this particular sale. Is it your recollection that the sales
invoice pertaining to this sale could not be located?
Mr. Gertler. That is right.
Mr. Russell. What, in your opinion, happened to the sales invoice
pertaining to this particular transaction?
Mr. Gertler. That I do not know.
Mr. Russell. What is that ?
Mr. Gertler. I do not know.
Mr. Russell. Do you know what other records the company has in
its possession which might help to identify or trace this transaction
further ?
Mr. Gertler. No.
Mr. Russell. The sales invoices which we examined yesterday for
the month of July 1936 are all of the invoices which the company has
in its possession pertaining to that particular month at this time?
Mr. Gertler, Yes.
Mr. Russell. Do you recall turning those records over to an indi-
vidual who was an investigator for this committee by the name of
McKillips?
Mr, Gertler. That is right.
Mr. Russell. Those documents were turned over by virtue of a sub-
pena served upon you yesterdaj^ by Mr. McKillips, were they not ?
Mr. Gertler. I understood the subpena was for me. but if it would
help out any I gave him the records to look over.
1066 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Russell. All right. At least, those documents were turned
over in compliance with the subpena,
Mr. Gertler. Yes, that is right.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Gertler, are you a member of any organizations
at the present time ?
Mr. Gertler. Yes.
Mr. Russell. Would you name the organizations, please?
Mr. Gertler. I am a Mason, Masonic order, Samuel Gompers Lodge.
That is about all
Mr. Russell. Is that the only organization to which you belong?
Mr. Gertler. Yes. i
Mr. Russell. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party? /
Mr. Gertler. The what ?
Mr. RussELi^. A member of the Commmiist Party.
Mr. Gertler. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Of the United States?
Mr. Gertler. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Did you ever file an application with the Communist
Party?
Mr. Gertler. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Has your membership in the party ever been solicited
by anybody ?
Mr. Gertler. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. In other words, were you ever asked to become a
member ?
Mr. Gertler. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions.
Mr. Nixon. Let me see this, off the record.
(Discussion was had outside the record.)
Mr. Nixon. I would like to ask the witness to look at this docu-
ment which I have just handed him, which is a photostatic copy of
the transaction involving this 1929 Ford car, which the committee is
interested in. I would like for the witness to tell me, first of all,
whether you have seen that document before.
Mr. Gertler. Yes; I have.
Mr. Nixon. You have studied the document ?
Mr. Gertler. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Well, now, from looking at this document, can you tell
me what was paid by the Cherner Co., if anything, to Mr. Hiss for
the automobile ?
Mr. Gertler. No ; we could not tell from this document.
Mr. Nixon. Where would that information be available?
Mr. Gertler. That would be either through a cashbook entry or a
journal entry.
Mr. Nixon. I see. Is the sales price of the car an item which
appears in that copy?
Mr. Gertler. No, sir.
Mr. Nixon. What appears in the document with regard to the sales
price?
Mr. Gertler. The only information that ever appears on the title
is the lien on the amount due.
Mr. Nixon. The lien. What amount of lien appears?
Mr. Gertler. $25.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1067
Mr. Nixon. The sales price could have been more than that?
Mr. Gertler. It would have to be more.
Mr. Stripling. It would have to be more ?
Mr. Gertler. I will take that back. Customarily, no dealer sells
a car and takes a note for the entire purchase price of the car. So
that is why I say that customarily the purchase price would have
been more than the amount of the lien.
Mr. Nixon. Yes ; but it could have been, say, $25.
Mr. Gertler. It could have been $25.
Mr. Nixon. But most likely it would have been considerably more
than that. How much down did you generally take if you sold a car,
say, for $50 ? Would you give a lien for $50 on it ?
Mr. Gertler. No.
Mr. Nixon. You would ask for at least half down, I suppose?
Mr. Gertler. I would say, for a car of this age, tliat the only
way it would be sold would be for cash, with a possibility that the
purchaser did not have the full amount of the cash, and they take a
note for a small amount.
Mr. Nixon. It is rather unusual to have as much as a $25 lien qn a
1929 car, a car which is 7 years old?
Mr. Gertler. This was a 7-year-old car.
Mr. Nixon. And if that car was in that condition at that time, a
$25 lien would be most unusual.
Mr. Gertler. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. You will note the address, the name of the purchaser,
that is given on that car.
Mr. Gertler. Yes. It is William
Mr. Nixon. It is William Eosen, is it not ?
Mr. Gertler. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. The address which the purchaser gave is false. Is there
any way that you could have found that out when you sold the car.
to him ?
Mr. Gertler. No.
Mr. Nixon. Where is this certificate prepared? Is that prepared
by the dealer or is it prepared down at the registrar of motor
vehicles ?
Mr. Gertler. Registrar of motor vehicles.
Mr. Nixon. But the dealer must apparently go down there to com-
j)lete the certificate, because I note that your name is on it.
Mr. Gertler. Customarily
Mr. Nixon. How is that done ?
Do you go down each time you sell a car to the registrar of motor
A^ehicles and fill out a certificate or are they available at your place of
business ?
Mr. Gertler. No; the w^ay this was is that Hiss or somebody else
sold or traded in his car to us.
Mr. Nixon. Now, you said — just a moment — somebody else. Look
again at the transaction. You will note that it is signed by Mr. Hiss.
Mr. Gertler. The reason I make that statement is, for example, if
my son had an automobile, and I was going to trade the car in to the
Cherner Motor Co., my son would sign the title and I would trade it
in in my name. That transaction is possible.
Mr. Nixon. But I mean at the time this transaction occurred Mr.
Hiss owned the car.
1068 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Gertler. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. There is no question about that.
Mr. Gertler. No; the car is registered in Hiss' name, and Hiss
assigned the title to the Cherner Motor Co.
Mr. Nixon. I see.
Mr. Gertler. The Cherner Motor Co., in turn, sold the car and
assigned the car to Mr. Rosen.
Mr. Nixon. In fact, you notarized Mr. Hiss' signature.
Mr. Gertler. W. Marvin Smith notarized that.
Mr. Nixon. Who is W. Marvin Smith ? I
Mr. Gertler. In the District of Columbia. /
Mr. Nixon. Where ; in your place of business ? '
Mr. Gertler. No.
Mr. Nixon. It was done on the outside ?
Mr. Gertler. Done on the outside.
Mr. Nixon. Where could it have been done ?
Mr. Gertler. Anywhere in the District.
Mr. Nixon. I understand, but this certificate of title, could it have
been done down at the Department of Motor Vehicles ?
Mr. Gertler. That I do not know. I do not know where Marvin
Smith is located.
Mr. Nixon. Noav, when Mr. Hiss sold this car, then, the car was
brought in to you. What did you do? What did you do with the
car? How did you get connected with the transaction? You have
notarized the signature on there, have you not ?
Mr. Gertler. I notarized the signature of the assignment at the
time we disposed of the car.
Mr. Nixon. At the time you disposed of the car, you notarized the
signature of William Rosen ?
Mr. Gertler. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. In other words, you are swearing now that William
Rosen said, "This is my sigiiature."
Mr. Gertler. That is right.
Mr. NlxoN. And if William Rosen were brought before you, you
probably would recognize him, would you not ?
Mr. Gertler. No, sir.
Mr. Nixon. But you are swearing now that a man came before you
and said, "I am William Rosen, and I am living at an address, and
I am assigning a chattel mortgage on this car to the Cherner Motor Co."
Mr. Gertler. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. And as a notary public you took that acknowledgment.
Mr. Gertler. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. And you would not have taken that acknowledgment
unless William Rosen so held himself out ?
Mr. Gertler. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. You could not have, under the law, because otherwise
you would have violated your oath of office.
Mr. Gertler. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. You do not know William Rosen at all ?
Mr. Gertler. No.
Mr. Nixon. The fact that this was a most unusual transaction on a
battered-up '29 car that would not run does not have any recollection
to you as to when he came before you and signed that ?
Mr. Gertler. No.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE - 1069
Mr. Nixon. When did he come down to you? You say that was
done at the Department of Motor Vehicles ?
Mr. Gertler. No.
Mr. Nixox. You told me that a moment ago.
Mr. Gertler. No ; the application for title was signed at my office.
Mr. Nixon. That is the application for title that you have got here ?
Mr. Gertler. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Then, this whole document was done in your office here.
Mr. Gertler. Yes ; the title came to us already assigned.
Mr. Nixon. Just a moment. This whole transaction, as you will
note, from the dates, occurred on the same date.
Mr. Gertler. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. Isn't it possible that the whole transaction could have
occurred in your office on the same day ?
Mr. Gertler. No.
Mr. Nixon. Why could it not?
Mr. Gertler. If the transaction, the whole thing, had taken place
in our office we would have notarized his signature.
Mr. Nixon. You would have notarized both ?
Mr. Gertler. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. In other words, Mr. Hiss got his signature notarized
outside, and brought this car in with the balance of the application
in blank?
Mr. Gertler. No; it appears that the assignment was filled in by
W. Marvin Smith.
Mr. Nixon. Yes ; that is, it was notarized by W. Marvin Smith.
Mr. Gertler. Now, the placing of our name, as the purchaser of the
car, was done by Marvin Smith. It looks like similar writing.
Mr. Nixon. You mean Marvin Smith bought this car ?
Mr. Gertler. No ; I say Marvin Smith wrote the name of the Cher-
ner Motor Co. in on the assignment.
Mr. Nixon. Alger Hiss wrote the name of the Cherner Motor Co.
in the assignment.
Mr. Gertler. It might be either handwriting.
Mr. Nixon. You cannot tell, can you ?
Mr. Gertler. No ; it may be either one.
Mr. Nixon. It could be either one, could it not?
Mr. Gertler. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. All right.
Mr. Gertler. The title came into our place with the name filled in
on the assignment.
Mr. Nixon, How would that title come to you ?
I just want to get this transaction in my mind as to how it worked.
Mr. Gertler. Well, the title came in to us at the time the car came
in to us.
Mr. Nixon. I see.
Mr. Gertler. In other words, when we either traded or purchased
the car, the title came along with the car.
Mr. Nixon. I see. This is what you call the title ?
Mr. Gertler. This is the title right here.
Mr. Nixon. I see.
Mr. Gertler. This title remained in our file until we disposed of the
car.
Mr. Nixon. The same day?
1070 ' COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Gertlek. That is riglit, in oiir office. When we sell the car we
reassign the car and have the purchaser sign the application at the
bottom here.
Mr. Nixon. I see.
Mr. Gertler. And we send these applications down to the Traffic
Bureau.
Mr. Nixon. I see.
Mr. Gertler. Now, the way this application is made up, jit is pre-
sumed that William Rosen would have got a title with his name on
the face of it similar to this.
Mr. Nixon. In other words, the way this transaction occurred, this
car was prought in to you by presumably Alger Hiss, the man
whose signature Mr. Smith notarized. You took this car and then
sold it the same day to William Rosen, and then you had William
Rosen fill out the balance of the application for transfer of title, and
you notarized his signature.
Mr. Gertler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Is Mr. Rosen subpenaed to testify, Mr. Russell ?
Mr. Russell. Yes ; we have a subpena out for him.
Mr. Nixon. Yes. You have a subpena out for him ?
When will he appear?
Mr. Russell. Forthwith when we find him.
Mr. Nixon.' I might say this, that we are going to get Mr. Rosen
here as soon as we can, and when he does arrive, if we find out it is
the same man we may want to have you come in to see if that will re-
fresh your memory as to this transaction. We want j^ou to see this
Mr. Rosen who claims — who is supposed to have bought this car.
Now, what about Mr. Smith ?
Mr. Russell. We are trying to locate him now.
Mr. Nixon. He has not been located now ?
Mr. Russell. He is in the Solicitor General's office, of the Depart-
ment of Justice, as far as we know, and he is probably out to lunch now,
but we have someone over there trying to find him.
Mr. Nixon. He has not been consulted as yet ?
Mr. Russell. No; that is right. He was apparent^ employed in
the Department at tb'^ same time that Hiss was.
Mr. Nixon. Employed in the Department?
Mr. Russell. Department of Justice.
Mr. Nixon. But he was a notary public also ?
Mr. Russell. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. That M'ould explain the transaction then. Mr. Hiss
was working in the Department, he went to the notary public who
was employed in the same Department, had him fill out this paper and
had it brought down to 3"ou. Does that sound about like what would
hai^pen?
Mr. Gertler. That sounds about like what would happen.
Mr. Nixon. Thank you very much for your testimony.
Mr. Gertler. All right.
Mr. NixoN. We appreciate your coming down, and, as I say, if we
can locate INIr. Rosen, the Rosen who claims to have purchased this
car, we may want to have you back for identification.
Mr. Gertler. May I be excused now, and can I go back ?
Mr. Nixon. Certainlv.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE " 1071
(Whereupon, at 12 : 55 p. m.. a recess was taken until 2 p. m, of the
same da3^)
AFTERNOON SESSION
( Pursuant to the taking of the noon recess and subsequent postpone-
ment, the subcommittee reconvened at 3 p. m., Hon. Karl E. Mundt
presiding.)
JNlr. Stripling. The first witness, Mr. Chairman, will be Mr. Smith.
AVill you stand and be sworn, Mr. Smith ?
Mr. Mundt. Will you give your full name for the record ?
Mr. ArPELL. W. Marvin Smith.
Mr. Mundt. Do you solemnly sweai' the testimony you are about to
give at this hearing, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help wou God ?
Mr. Smith. I do.
INIr. Nixon. Mr. Chairman, I would like to instruct the witness as
to the testimony that is being given before we ask any questions.
Mr. Mundt. "^All right.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Witness, this is a hearing of the subcommittee of
the Committee on Un-American Activities. At the present time, we
are engaged in investigating the disposition of a 1929 Ford automobile
which was at one time owned by Alger Hiss. The questions which
will be asked you concerning this transaction and all other questions
which will be asked you will be material to this inquiry. In that they
are material to this inquiry, those questions, of course, if answered
falsely would subject you to perjui\y.
I also want to instruct you that in the event you do not remember
the facts when a question is put to you, that you have a perfect right
to tell the committee that you do not remember.
If, on the other hand, you testify that you do not remember and
it later appears as a result of other evidence that actually you did
liave facts within your knowledge which indicated that you actually
did remember, that also would, of course, be a false statement and
subject you to perjury.
I wanted you to have a full understanding of the type of testimony
and questions which we are going to go into before you did answer
these questions.
Now, Mr. Stripling, do you have some questions?
TESTIMONY OF W. MAEVIN SMITH
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Smith, when and where were you born?
Mr. Smith. I was born in Washington, D. C, August 16, 1895.
Mr. Stripling. 1895. Where are you presently employed?
Mr. Smith. I am employed at the Department of Justice.
Mr. Stripling. How long have you been employed there ?
Mr. Smith. I think it is about 31 years.
Mr. Stripling. Thirty-four years ?
Mr. Smith. Maybe I am off a year or two.
Mr. Stripling. What is the nature of your employment?
Mr. Smith. I am an attorney there.
Mr. Stripling. An attorney?
Mr. Smith. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. How long have you been an attorney there?
1072 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Smith. Well, I came in as a stenographer. I imagine — let's
see, 34 years ; this is pretty hard to remember back. I do not know ;
I imagine about 20 years.
Mr. Stripling. Twenty years?
Mr. Smith. Twenty or twenty-five years ; I don't remember exactly.
Mr. Stripling. Were you employed in the Department of Justice
in 1936?
Mr. Smith. Yes; I was.
Mr. Stripling. Are you acquainted with an individual by the name
of Alger Hiss ?
Mr. Smith. I am. He worked in the same office.
Mr. Stripling. With you?
Mr. Smith. With me.
Mr. Stripling. How long?
Mr. Smith. He was not there very long. I think it was about a
year, I am not sure of that, but he was there I think about a year.
Mr. Stripling. Do you recall his coming to you for the purposes
of getting you to notarize his signature on an assignment of title in
1936?
Mr. Smith. No ; I do not specifically remember that.
Mr. Stripling. You do not remember that?
Mr. Smith. You see, I was a notary there, and many people in the
Department would come before me. I would not know just
Mr. Stripling. All right.
Mr. Smith. I had been a notary for a number of years.
Mr. Stripling. I show you a photostatic copy of an assignment of
title which was taken from the files, subpenaed from the files, of the
Vehicles and Traffic Division of the District of Columbia. This title
is No. 245,617. It states in part on the reverse side, "Assignment of
title. For value received the undersigned hereby sells, assigns, or
transfer unto (name of purchaser)"; then, written in is "Cherner
Motor Company; address, 1781 Florida Avenue, Northwest," and
then it goes on to say, "the motor vehicle described on the reverse side
of this certificate, and the undersigned hereby warrants the title to
said motor vehicle and certifies that at the time of delivery the same is
subject to the following liens or incumbrances and none other," and
then it says, "None," meaning no incumbrances. It says, "Signature
of Assignor, Alger Hiss."
Then it says, "On the 23d day of July 1936, before me, the sub-
scriber, a notary public of the District of Columbia, personally ap-
peared Alger Hiss, who made oath in due form of law that the above
statements are true. Witness my hand and notarial seal, W. Marvin
Smith, Notary Public." ' • • .
Is that your signature, Mr. Smith ?
Mr. Smith. It sure does look like it.
Mr. Stripling. You say it does?
Mr. Smith. Yes ; I have no doubt it is.
Mr. MuNDT. Talk a little louder.
Mr. Smith. I say I have no doubt that it is.
Mr. Stripling. Is this your handwriting, "Cherner Motor Company,
1781 Florida Avenue, Northwest"?
Mr. SaiiTH. No ; that is not my handwriting.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have any recollection of executing this
paper?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1073
Mr. Smith. I have no personal recollection of doing it.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have any records to check it ?
Mr. Smith. No ; I do not. You see, I charged no fee to the people
who came in, so I kept no record. I think, in the whole time I had it,
it was merely for the accommodation of the people there.
Mr. Stripling. But that is your signature ?
Mr. Smith. That is my signature.
Mr. Stripling. Write your signature right here, Mr. Smith.
Mr. Smith. All right [complying].
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, he has testified that it is his signa-
ture. It appears to be his signature. But he testifies that he did not
write the "Cherner Motor Company."
Mr. Nixon. May I ask a question on that point ? I have one ques-
tion. You will note, Mr. Smith, that
Mr. MuNDT. Obviously, it is the same signature.
Mr. Nixon. You will note, Mr. Smith, the date that appears on your
notarization, on this 23d day of July 1936, "Before me, the subscriber,
a notary public of the District of Columbia, personally appeared Alger
Hiss," signed, and so forth, "W. Marvin Smith," and the date is the
23d day of July 193G. Did you type that in ? Did you type that in,
Mr. Smith?
Mr. S3IITH. I do not recall typing it in. I imagine it was executed —
all that was filled in, I imagine, before he came before me. I could not
remember that.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Smith, do you have a record, as a notary public, of
all notarizations?
Mr. Smith. Oh, no.
Mr. Nixon. You have not ?
Mr. Smith. I have no record because, as I say, I charged no fees. I
have not charged a fee since about 1925 — well, I think I got the com-
mission in about 1919 and I charged a few fees at that time and had
a record then, but I have not charged since.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Smith, my point about the date is this : If the date
had not been July 23, 1936, you would not have signed the notarization ?
Mr. Smith. I do not think I would ; no.
Mr. Nixon. You looked at it ?
Mr. Smith. I have no reason to doubt that was the date on which
Mr. Hiss appeared before me.
Mr. Nixon. It is your custom as a notary public to check the dates
of the notarization before you sign it?
Mr. Smith. I do not clieck the things too closely. People run into
our office and ask if I will notarize sometliing, and in most instances
I assume they would be the same date that they came in. I imagine
I would have noticed if it was a different date.
Mr. Nixon. Suppose the date had been a year different from that,
would you have noticed ?
Mr. Smith. I think I would if there was a year's difference.
Mr. ]\IuNDT. I presume it was also your custom as a notary public
to verif}^ the signature of the man whose signature you were acknowl-
edging ? That is
Mr. Smith. Well, I assumed that he appeared before me, and I
imagine he would
80408—48 37
1074 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. MuNDT. And you would not have attached your signature to
this document unless Alger Riss himself had signed his name.
Mr. Smith. Unless he appeared before me and signed it. Or I
knew his signature; I do not remember now what his signature was.
Mr. MuNDT. It was never your custom, I presume, to simply attach
your signature to blank documents? ,
He had to have it filled in first.
Mr. Smith. No; I would not do that.
Mr. MuNDT. That is what we are trying to establish.
Mr. Smith. No; he either appeared before me or I recognized his
signature. I assume he appeared before me. That is what every-
body does.
Mr. MuNDT. And the details of this assignment were filled in at
the time you put your signature on it.
Mr. Smith. Yes; but I do not have any personal recollection in
l^articular.
Mr. MuNDT. You never made it a practice to attach jour signature
to assignments in blank i?
Mr. Smith. No; I never do that; no. I would imagine if the date
was different there, a year, I am sure that I would have noticed it.
Mr. Mundt. It looks to me as if the same handwriting that wrote
"Cherner Motor Company'' wrote "Alger Hiss."
Mr. Nixon. Would you check that? It seems quite apparent that
it is, but I want an official statement on that for the meeting tomoi-row.
Mr. Mundt. Get an official handwriting expert.
Mr. Appell. That is what I have used to have a comparison made of
the signature of Alger Hiss. I have an official certification that is his
signature.
Mr. Mundt. Mr. Stripling, do you have any other questions?
iMr. Stripling. No ; no questions.
Mr. Mundt. Thank you, Mr. Smith.
Mr. Nixon. We are sorry to bother you.
Mr. Smith. That is all right. I told you all I know about it.
Mr. Mundt. It takes a lot of little details to piece together a picture.
We wanted to get from you the information you have given us.
The meeting will now adjourn.
(Whereupon, at 3 : 30 p. m., the meeting adjourned.)
HEARINGS REGARDINCx COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 25, 1948
United States House or Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities.
Washi7igfon, D. C.
The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10 : 30 a. m., in the caucus
room, Old House Office Building, Hon, J. Parnell Thomas (chairman),
presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives J. Parnell Thomas,
Karl E. Mundt, John McDowell, Richard M. Nixon, Richard B. Vail,
and F. Edward Hebert.
Staff members present: Ro])ert E. Stripling, chief investigator;
Louis J. Russell, William A. Wheeler, Donald T. Appell, investigators;
Benjamin Mandel, director of research ; and A. S, Poore, editor, for
the committee.
The Chairman. The meeting will come to order.
Take your seats, please, those who have seats.
The record will show that those present are Mr. Mundt, Mr. Mc-
Dowell, Mr. Nixon, Mr. Vail, Mr. Hebert, and Mr. Thomas.
A quorum of the full committee is present.
The Chair would like to make this short statement. On August 3
tlie full committee received testimony from Whittaker Chambers re-
garding the operation within the Government of the Communist
apparatus during the period 1934 to 1937.
According to the testimony of Mr. Chambers, Mr. Alger Hiss was
a member of this group, which had as its purpose Communist infiltra-
tion of the American Government, with espionage as one of its eventual
objectives.
On August 5 the committee heard in o]Den session Mr. Alger Hiss
at his own request, who categorically denied the testimony and stated
that he had never known an individual by the name of Whittaker
Cliambers and could not identify him as a person he had ever known
by photographs which were shown him.
The committee in an effort to determine the facts promptly sent
a subcommittee to New York and again called Whittaker Chambers,
took his testimony in executive session in the Federal Building in New
York City on August 7. Mr. Chambers was questioned at length re-
garding his associations with Mr. Hiss.
He gave the committee vSuch detailed information concerning his
associations with Mr. Hiss and his family during the period in ques-
tion that the committee came to the conclusion that it was impossible
for the two persons not to have been closely associated.
1075
1076 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Following this session, part of the staff of the committee was then
detailed to corroborate, if possible, the testimony of Whittaker Cham-
bers, which had been taken in New York City. As a result of this
investigation, on August 16 the committee again brought before it
Mr. Alger Hiss, w^io was questioned in executive session in Washing-
ton concerning the detailed testimony that Mr. Chambers had given
in New York in executive session. During the course of this testi-
mony Mr. Hiss again failed to identify AVhittaker Chambers from
the photographs which were shown to him. However, he did advise
the committee that he had searched his mind and that he did recall
an individual by the name of George Crosley, whom he had known
during the period in question.
He expressed some doubt, however, that this was the person knowii
as Whittaker Chambers.
The following day, August 17, the committee brought about a con-
frontation at an executive session of the committee at the Commodore
Hotel, New York City, between Alger Hiss and Whittaker Chambers,
at which time Mr. Hiss made the positive identification of Whittaker
Chambers as an individual that he knew as George Crosley.
While the testimony of Whittaker Chambers is not directly involved
in the two espionage rings which the committee has been investigat-
ing— namely, the Silvermaster and Perlo groups, as disclosed by
Elizabeth T. Bentley — nevertheless, because of the direct conflict in
the testimony of Mr. Hiss and Mr. Chambers, the committee has con-
tinued its investigations and has subpenaed both of these witnesses
to appear here in public session this morning in an effort to determine
the true facts.
As a result of this hearing, certainly one of these witnesses will be
tried for perjury. The Congress and the American people are entitled
to the truth on this important matter. These hearings will be fair
and imiDartial.
I should, therefore, like to caution the people present today that
they are guests of the committee. We are glad to have as many rep-
resentatives of the American public as is possible to crowd in this
room today. I shall ask, therefore, that you conduct yourselves in an
orderly manner and to refrain from any demonstration whatsoever,
including applause.
I should like to say to the news reels and photographers that they
are likewise welcome here, but they must not in any way interfere
with the orderly pi;'ocedure of the committee.
With this understanding, we shall proceed to call the first witness.
Mr. Stripling, the first witness.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Alger Hiss.
The Chairman. Mr. Hiss, raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the Avhole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Hiss. I do.
The Chairman. Sit down.
TESTIMONY OF ALGER HISS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
JOHN F. DAVIS
Mr. Stripling. Are you accompanied by counsel ?
Mr. Hiss. I am, Mr. Stripling.
I
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1077
Mr. Stru'ling. Will you have your counsel identify himself ?
Mr. Davis. My name is John F. Davis. I am a partner in the firm
of Hilmer & Davis, with offices at 1700 1 Street NW., Washington, D. C.
]Mr. STKirLiXG. Mr. Hiss, you are here this morning in response to
a subpena which was serA^ed upon you on August 17 at the Commodore
Hotel in New York City ; is that correct ?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Stripling, as I told the subcommittee on that day,
there was no need to serve a subpena on me. A subpena was handed to
me. I had already told the committee I would be very glad to be here
on August 25.
Mr. Stripling. You are here also in response to the subpena, how-
ever ?
Mr. Hiss. I received the subpena ; yes, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. You are here in response to it; is that correct?
Mr. Hiss. To the extent that my coming here quite voluntarily after
having received the subpena is in response to it; I would accej^t that
statement.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I would like to read a brief state-
ment at this time.
Public Law 001 of the Seventy-ninth Congress, second session:
House Resolution 5 of the Eightieth Congress provides the authority
for the Committee on Un-American Activities, United States House of
Representatives.
Public Law 601 states :
The Committee on Un-American Activities as a whole or by subcommittee
is authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent, char-
acter, and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States,
(ii) the diffusion within the United .States of subversive and un-American propa-
ganda that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin and at-
tacks the principle or the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution,
and (iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any
necessary remedial legislation.
Pursuant to this mandate the committee has been conducting an
investigation in the past several months into alleged Communist in-
filtration by Communist agents in the Federal Government and the
operation within the Government of certain persons who were col-
lecting information to be turned over to a foreign government. The
hearing this morning is for the purpose of pursuing this investigation.
Among the witnesses who have been subpenaed to appear this morning
are Mr. Alger Hiss and Mr. Whittaker Chambers.
All questions propounded to Mr. Hiss and Mr. Chambers or the
other witnesses will be pertinent to the inquiry, and they shall be
required to answer them.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Cliairman, I would like to address a question to the
chairman if I might.
The Chairman. Mr. Hiss.
Mr. Hiss. May I be permitted to make an opening statement ?
The Chairman. Mr. Hiss, is that opening statement the same as the
letter you sent to me?
Mr. Hiss. I would like to read that letter into the record so that it
is actually a part of the record in these proceedings.
The Chairman. Is it the same as the letter ?
Mr. Hiss. In part it is, but I have a few additional comments I
would like to make in addition to reading
The Chairman. We have already read the letter in the newspapers.
1078 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Hiss. But it is not a part of the record of this proceeding, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. May I suggest that we proceed with the questions
and at the conckision of the questions and answers the committee take
Mr. Hiss' statement under advisement as to whether he should read it.
The Chairman. Without objection, it is so ordered.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Chairman, do I understand your ruling that I may
not read the letter into the record ?
The Chairman. Not necessarily. You may not read the letter right
at this point. Later on we will take under consideration whether or
not the letter will be read.
Mr. Hiss. May I, Mr. Chairman, make the other part of the state-
ment I desire to make at the outset of the meeting?
The Chairman. Not at this point. Go ahead, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling, Mr. Hiss, would you kindly stand up, please ?
Mr. Chambers, will you stand up?
Mr. Hiss, have vou ever seen this individual ? [Mv. Stripling points
to Mr. Chambers'.]
The Chairman. Would you repeat the question, please ?
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever seen this individual who is standing?
Mr. Hiss. I have.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know him ?
Mr. Hiss. I identify him, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. As who ?
Mr. Hiss. As George Crosley.
Mr. Stripling. When did you know him as George Crosley?
Mr. Hiss. According to my best recollection — and I would like to
repeat what I have said to the committee before, that I have not had the
opportunitv to consult records of the time — I first knew him sometime
in the winter of 1934 or 1935.
Mr. Stripling. When did j^ou last see Mr. Crosley, as you have
identified him ?
Mr. Hiss. Prefacing my answer with the same remarks I have just
made, I Avould think sometime in 1935.
Mr. Stripling. In 1935 was the last time you saw him ?
Mr. Hiss. According to my best recollection, not having checked the
records.
Mr. Stripling. Would you remain standing a moment, Mr. Hiss?
Mr. Chairman, would you swear in Mr. Chambers?
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about
to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Mr. Chambers. I do.
TESTIMONY OF WHITTAKER CHAMBERS
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chambers, do you know the individual who is
now standing at the witness stand?
Mr. Chambers. I do.
Mr. Stripling. Who is he?
Mr. Chambers. Mr. Alger Hiss.
Mr. Stripling. When did you first meet Mr. Hiss?
Mr. Chambers. I think about 1934.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1079
Mr. SxRirLixG. 1934?
Mr. Chambers. 1934.
Mr. Stripling. When did yon l;ist see Mr. Hiss?
Mr. Chambers. About 1938.
Mr. Stripling. About 1938. Have a seat, Mr. Chambers. Sit
down, Mr. Hiss.
Mr. Hiss, when you ^appeared before the committee on xiugust 3,
I think it was
TESTIMONY OF ALGER HISS— Resumed
Mr. Hiss. I appeared on August 5, 1 think.
Mr. Stripling. August a — I am sorry — you were shown pictures of
Mr. Whittaker Chambers.
Mr. Hiss. I was shown a photograph.
Mr. Stripling. At that time you could not identify this individual
from that photograph.
jSIr. Hiss. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. When you appeared before the committee in execu-
tive session in AVashington on August 10, you were again shown a pic-
ture of Mr. Whittaker Chambers.
Mr. Hiss. I think I Avas sliown two pictures that day, according to
my recollection.
Mr. Stripling. You also failed at that time to identify Mr. Cham-
bers as Mr. Crosley.
Mr. Hiss. I said that the pictures were definitely of a face that was
not unfamiliar to me. There was a certain familiarity about it.
Incidentally, Mr. Stripling is referring to certain testimony of mine
taken in executive session. Mr. Chairman. I wonder if there is any
reason why all of the testimony thus far taken in this case should not
he made public. A good deal of it has reached the press by one means
or another. There is a considerable amount of distortion and mis-
understanding.
I have no reason to want any of that testimony — mine or Mr. Cham-
bers', which I have never seen — to remain secret. It seems to me the
public and the press would like to have full access to all of the testi-
mony that has been taken to this date.
Mr. Strh'ling. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that the committee make
all of the testimony public as of this moment.
Mr. Hiss. I think that would be a very good idea.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that yesterday, in your
absence, the members of the committee who were here decided that
today we would make all the testimony available provided it was agree-
able to the other members of the committee.
Mr. Hiss. I am very gratified.
The Chairman. All right. Without objection, it will all be made
public as of this moment.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Hiss, would you relate to the committee the cir-
<'umstances under which you first met the person you have identified
that you knew as George Crosley ?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Stripling, I have already in an effort to be helpful
to the committee when I came to the executive sassion on the IGth will-
ingly in response to a request from the chairman given the best recol-
lection that I have.
1080 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
As I said then, I have no opportunity to consult records. The
connection between Crosley and Chambers did not enter my mind
until Monday morning, the 16th, while I was on the way by train to
the afternoon session. According to my best recollection, without
checking the records — and I do think it would be more helpful if
the committee would go by records ; I would like to know what the
records say; some of the records I find are not available to me; I
believe they are in the custody of the committee. I have attempted
through counsel in the last few days to have access to the records.
Mr. Stripling. Just a moment, Mr. Hiss. What records have you
attempted to obtain which were in the custody of the committee ?
Mr. Hiss. I have attempted to obtain records of leases of premises
where I was resident during the period in question. I have attempted
to get the records with respect to the Ford automobile that I owned.
I am informed that the i-ecords with respect to the latter in par-
ticular are not in their normal, official location but are in the custody
of the committee.
Mr. Stripling. That is absolutely untrue. The committee has is-
sued no subpenas upon any realty company nor has it obtained any
leases.
It has subpenaed a photostatic copy of a document from the Depart-
ment of Motor Vehicles of the District of Columbia. However, the
original document is still in the files.
Mr. Hiss. I am told, Mr. Stripling, that the original document is no
longer in the files. I tried to have my counsel have access to it.
Mr. Stripling. ^Vhen did you try to secure that document ?
Mr. Hiss. I will have to rely on counsel to say just when they tried.
The Chairman. It would be interesting to the committee to know
from counsel when you tried to get this document.
Mr. Davis. A representative of mine tried to get this document
yesterday afternoon, I am informed by the representative. I did not
myself go to the Motor Vehicle Bureau. He was told that it was
photostated at some time prior to yesterday but the document itself
had been taken from its normal place yesterday.
Mr. Mundt. Who was that representative and who told him it was
taken from the place and who took it from the place? Let's get down
to specific facts. If you were not told yourself, who was your
representative ?
Mr. Davis. I am sorry — I am not trying to be cA'asive — I do not
know who the person was that went, I can ascertain who went to the
Bureau to find out. I do not know.
Mr. Mundt. You do not know who it was who told you that?
Mr. Davis. I do not know and I do not know that it was stated
that the committee had taken the original. All I know is he was
told the original had been removed from its normal place.
Mr. Mundt. But you don't know who told you that or who told the
other man that. That is very vague from the standpoint of our com-
mittee, you understand.
Mr. Davis. I understand it is very vague. I do not know who it
was. I can ascertain who it was during a recess.
Mr. Mundt. Was he a member of your firm ?
Mr. Davis. He was not a member of my firm.
Mr. Nixon. How did you find it out, tlien ?
Mr. Davis. I was informed.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1081
Mr. XixoN. By whom ?
Mr. Davis. I Avas informed of this-
Mr. SxRirLiNG. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that counsel be sworn if
he is going to testify. Perhaps it wouUl be better if you were sworn.
The Chairman. Stand and raise your right hand.
Do you sok>mnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Davis. I do.
The Chairman. Sit down,
Mr. Nixon. It would be helpful to the committee if counsel would
tell us how he received the information tliat these records were missing
from their normal place. Who told him?
Mr. Davis. I would be very glad to.
Mr. XixoN. Yes.
Mr. Davis. I was told, as I recollect, by Mr. Fontaine Bradley, who
is an attorney in Washington, and whom I had asked while I was in
New York to make certain inquiries in Washington in respect to these
matters.
Mr. MuNDT. Would you please identify the firm of which Mr. Fon-
taine Bradley is a member ?
Mr. Daat:s. I believe that Mr. Bradley is a member of the Covington
firm.
Mr. Nixon. When did he tell you this ?
Mr. Davis. He told me this last evening when I saw him when I
finally got to Washington.
Mr. Nixon. Then you know this is the man who told you that, don't
you ? You said "to the best of my recollection." I mean, if he told
you last evening, you certainly know if it was he or somebody else,
don't you?
Mr. Daa^s. I believe it was he.
Mr. Nixon. You believe. Did vou have a conversation with him,
Mr, Davis?
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Mundt. I would just like to register a protest at this continuous
evasion on the part of these witnesses. I am getting tired of flying
half-way across the country to get evasive answers. If the gentleman
doesn't know who told him, let him say, "I don't know." If he knows,
let him say "I do know." Let's not say "I believe" or "I think."
The Chairjian. Mr. Nixon, you have the questioning, so you may
proceed with the questioning.
Mr. Nixon. I want counsel to take plenty of time to answer the
question. I think the question is quite simple.
Last evening somebody told him about these records. Now cer-
tainly you can remember who told you last night. Counsel.
]Mr. Davis. Mr. Nixon, there were three people present at this time.
There was Mr. Bradley, there was a partner of Mr. Bradley, and
there was Mr. Hiss and myself, four i^ersons present, as I remember, at
the time of this conversation.
Mr. Nixon. I see.
Mr. Davis. I think it was Mr. Fontaine Bradley who gave me this
information.
Mr, Nixon. Wlio else could it have been ?
1082 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Davis. It is possible it was his partner who was there who gave
me the information, but I do not believe that was so.
Mr. Nixon. Then it definitely was Mr. Bradley or his partner who
gave you the information ?
Mr. Davis. That is to the best of my recollection, and I shouldn't
forget what happened last night.
Mr. Nixon. Certainly. This conversation you had wasn't a tele-
phone conversation ?
Mr. Davis. It was a person-to-person conversation.
Mr. Nixon. Just what did he tell you ?
Mr. Davis. He told me, as I have just stated, that inquiries — and my
memory is not certain whether he said the Commissioner of Motor
Vehicles, or what the bureau is, the official bureau where j'ou go with
lespect to getting the certificates of title — inquiry had been made, I
think not by him, but by some agent that he sent, to see if we could
examine that certificate, and that he ascertained that the certificate
itself had been photostated by the committee, I believe, at some prior
time, but that the certificate itself had been removed from its customary
place and was not available for inspection by our agent at the time we
were there.
Mr. Nixon. Thank you very much. Counsel.
The Chairman. Does anyone else want to ask counsel any questions
before Mr. Stripling proceeds with the witness ?
Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Hiss, will you continue to give the committee
the circumstances under which you met the person you have identified
as George Crosley.
Mr. Hiss. According to my best recollection, a man representing
himself to me as George Crosley came into my office in the Senate Office
Building while I was acting as chief counsel to the Senate Committee
Investigating the Munitions Industry. He represented himself as a
free-lance writer for magazines. He represented himself as preparing
a series of articles about the munitions investigation.
As did many other members of the press, research people, and similar
people, he had a perfect right to come to my office either directly or
by reference from the central office. Very many members of the press
and others interested did come to see me about the cases of which I was
in charge.
It was one of my duties to give the press such helpful information
about the record, such guidance, one might say, as to the significance
of what the committee had been developing. That is my best recol-
lection of how I first met George Crosley.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Counsel, may I interpose a question here on a mat-
ter which Mr. Hiss has previously covered?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss, I understood you to say that you felt that the
records of the leases should be checked before you could testify actually
as to date; is that correct?
Mr. Hiss. I was asked, Mr. Nixon, on the 16th and, I think on the
I7th — the record will show
(At this point an unknown person confers with Mr. Davis.)
The Chairman. Mr. Counsel, will you please identify the man who
came up?
Mr, Davis. The man who came up is Mr. Harold Rosenwald.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1083
Mr. MuNDT. A little further identification, please. Is he counsel?
Mr. Davis. He is a practicing lawyer in New York City.
Mr. MuNDT. His address and the name of his firm ?
Mr. EosENWALD. 55 Liberty Street, New York City. The firm is
Oseas, Pepper & Segal, 0-s-e-a-s-, Pepper & Segal. I am employed
by them.
(At this point there was a further consultation between Mr. Rosen-
wald and Mr. Davis.)
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Chairman, since the committee seems to be very much
interested in counsel for giving me any kind of assistance, may I just
state that not being a man of considerable means, I have been much
gratified by the volunteer assistance of friends, many of whom not
unnaturally are lawyers.
Mr. Rosenwald, who has just been identified, is a graduate of the
same law school that I am. I knew him also in practice in Boston, and
have kept in touch with him since.
He has been voluntarily assisting me in attempting to get records
and similar materials.
Mr. Davis, who is with me today, is also a personal friend of some
standing, some long standing. I have had some difficulty with respect
to continuity of counsel.
The first adviser I had, Mr. William Marbury, an old friend in
Baltimore, who accompanied me to the other hearing on August 5,
was sent within the week or within 10 days to London by the Govern-
ment on important business.
I have been doing the best I could to get such assistance of a volun-
taiy nature as I possibly could. I think it may be appropriate to put
that in. since the committee seems to be very much interested in who are
helping.
Various others have volunteered their assistance.
The Chairman. I will say this for the committee. We are very
much interested in hearing what you have to say.
Mr. Nixon, did you have a question ?
Mr. NixoN". Mr. Hiss was interrupted when he was answering.
Mr. Hiss. Will you repeat your question ? I am sorry.
Mr. Nixon. I understood you to say that you thought the committee
should check the leases and also I thought I understood you to say
that you had not yet checked the leases yourself. I wanted to be sure
1 heard you correctly.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, I have not checked the leases myself. I
thought I had the leases in my papers in New York.
Mr. Nixon. You so testified.
Mr. Hiss. I said on the IHth I thought they were there. I have now
looked in my apartment in New York, and I must have got rid of the
leases when I moved from the house into an apartment which meant a
certain contraction of possessions. I did get rid of a good many old
j)apers at that time, and apparenth' the leases were among them.
So it has meant going back, first, remembering the real-estate agents
I dealt with, and, second, going back to the real-estate agents to find
out from them what the actual terms and dates of the leases were.
I was asked on the lOth and on the 17th a good many questions by
members of the committee and I think by Mr. Stripling as to where I
lived at various times. I was not even able to recall the street cor-
1084 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
rectl}^ To the best of my recollection, I testified that I lived on Twenty-
ninth Street. I have now ascertained that it was Twenty-eighth Street.
My reference to the leases was that I could not after all these years
be expected to remember with accuracy and to be really helpful to the
committee in its presumed search for truth and the complete truth
unless I did have the opportunity to consult records.
But I also told the committee that I was not in any sense going to be
evasive. I hope the acting chairman's reference to evasiveness was not
in any remote sense an implied reference to me.
I went forward, Mr. Nixon, and said, testifying simply on recollec-
tion of rather trivial housekeeping details of 14 years ago, I would
tell you the best I could recall, and so I did.
Mr. ^ixoN. Then, the point is that you have not checked the leases
as of this morning ?
Mr. Hiss. I still have not been able to get hold of all the leases. Some
of the leases have been consulted, there have been some telephone con-
versations with the real-estate people. I have asked counsel to prepare
as rapidly as' possible a collection of all the available record evidence — ■
photostats, originals, or copies — of all the record evidence on these
matters, which it is apparent the committee considers of importance.
That has not been completed yet.
Mr. Nixon. That is all.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Hiss, do you have the lease between you and
Mr. Crosley?
Mr. Hiss. I have never testified that there was any lease between me
and Mr. Crosley. I said that it was an oral arrangement; a sublease
orally arranged.
Mr. Stripling. Now, you gave the committee the circumstances
under which you met Mr. Crosley. Could you give us the date, the
approximate date ?
Mr. Hiss. Again, my best recollection would be — and this is a recon-
structed memory trying to recall when I did various things with the
Nye committee. I have not even been able to get the list of all the staff
of the Nye committee, for example.
I would think it must have been either in the late winter of 1934
or the early winter of 1935.
Mr. Stripling. At this point, I would like to read from your testi-
mony which you gave on August 16.
Mr, Hiss. The name of the man I brought in — and he may have no relation
to this whole nightmare — is a man named George Crosley. I met him when I
was working for the Nye committee. He was a writer. He hoped to sell articles
to magazines about the munitions industry. I saw him, as I saw in my office
over in the Senate Office Building, dozens of representatives of the press, students,
people writing books, research people. It was our job to give them appropriate
information out of the record, show what had been put in the record. This
fellow was writing a series of articles, according to my best recollection, free
lancing, which he hoped to sell to one of the magazines. He was pretty obviously
not successful in financial terms, but as far as I know was not actually
hard up.
Mr. Stripling. What color was his hair?
Mr. Hiss. Rather blondish ; blonder than any of us here.
Mr. Steipling. Was he married?
Mr. Hiss. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Any children?
Mr. Hiss. One little baby, as I remember it, and the way I know that was
the subleasing point. After we had taken the house on P Street and had the
apartment on our hands, he one day in the course of casual conversation said
he was going to specialize all summer in getting his articles done here in Wash-
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1085
ington. did not know what he was going to do, and was thinking of bringing
his family. I said, "You can have my apartment. It is not terribly cool but
it is up in the air and near the Wardman Park." He said he had a wife and
little baby. The apartment was not very expensive and I think I let him have
it at exact cost. My recollection is that he spent several nights in my house
because his furniture van was delayed. We left several pieces of furniture
behind. The P Street house belonged to a naval officer overseas and was partly
furnished, so we did not need all our furniture, particularly during the summer
months, and my recollection is that definitely, as one does with a tenant trying
to make him agreeable and comfortable, we left several pieces of furniture behind
until the fall. His van was delayed, was not going to bring all the furniture
because he w-as going to be there just during the summer, and we put them up
two or thi'ee nights in a row, his wife and little baby.
Mr. Nixon. His wife and he and little baby did spend several nights in the
house with youV
Mr. Hiss. This man Crosley ; yes.
Mr. Stripling. Now, is that as you recall it, Mr. Hiss?
Mr. Hiss. That was the best recollection I had on the day I testi-
fied and that is why I so testified.
I have since learned that my lease on the house began earlier than
I thought and my lease on the apartment terminated somewhat earlier
than I thought. The overlap which I remembered, and which was
the main thing in my memory, was, according to the best records I
have so far been able to check, accurate.
Mr. Stripling. When did you first move into the P Street house?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Stripling, I really think the best way for this com-
mittee to get full facts is to go to records, if possible. I have said
that several times in these hearings.
The Chairman. Mr. Witness.
]Mr. Hiss. I have not been able yet to get — and I will furnish it
to the committee as soon as I get it — the actual records of when I
took the lease on the P Street house and when I moved into the P
Street house.
The Chairman. Mr. Hiss, we appreciate your suggestions as to how
to conduct these hearings, but if you do not mind, and if the com-
mittee does not mind, we have certain questions we would like to
proceed with.
Mr. Hiss. Certainly.
The Chairman. Go ahead, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, at this point I would like to read
into the record a letter from Sandoz, Inc., real estate and insurance,
dated August 20, 1948, from Teresa B. Mileham, who signed herself
as a bookkeeper, addressed to Robert E. Stripling, Chief Investigator :
Mt Dear Mr. Stripijng : This is to certify that our records show that we rented
2905 P Street NW., to Priscilla Hiss for 1 year from May 1, 1935, to June 15, 1936,
at a monthly rental of $105.
Very truly yours.
Does that refresh your recollection on that at all, Mr. Hiss?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Stripling, I would have thought in view of informa-
tion I have received as to the date during which my tenancy of the
apartment on Twenty-eighth Street lasted, that I must have moved
into the P Street house a little earlier than the date just read, which
I understood to be May 1.
(Mr. Stripling hands letter to Mr. Hiss.)
Mr. Hiss (continuing). And again I would like to check all possible
records to see whether I moved in before the date of the lease, accord-
ing to their records, which is sometimes the custom, to be given a
1086 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
month or so in addition to your regular lease, earlier or later, at the
beginning preceding the lease or after its termination ; so that again
I can't testify with any exactness without an opportunity to refresh
my recollection by trying to refer to various records which are not
easy to get hold of after all this lapse of time.
Mr. Stripling. Now I believe you testified earlier, Mr. Hiss, that
you sublet your apartment on Twenty-eighth Street — ^that was apart-
ment 42, at 2831 Twenty-eighth NW.,— to George Crosley. Is that
correct?
Mr. Hiss. I did so testify and I did so sublet.
Mr. Stripling. When tlid you sublet this apartment to George
Crosley ?
Mr. Hiss. My recollection had been that it was at the beginning of
the summer. Whether it was a little earlier or a little later than
that I couldn't be sure — and again I would want to have access to
all the records possible in order to be as accurate as possible.
The Chairman. What yenv'i
Mr- Hiss. What year did what happen ?
The Chairman. The summer of what year ?
Mr. Stripling. That you sublet the apartment.
Mr. Hiss. The summer of 1935.
Mr. Stripling. What was the agreement regarding this apartment
between you and Mr. Crosley?
Mr. Hiss. According to my best recollection, the agreement was that
of a simple informal sublease at the cost to me, the privilege of his
occupjdng the premises as long as I had disposition of them, and it
has been my recollection from Monday, the 16th of this month, on that
I did have the disposition of that apartment or could assure the dis-
position of that apartment over a period of several months after L
moved into 2905 P Street.
Mr. Stripling. Do you recall just when your lease for the apart-
ment expired ?
Mr. Hiss. No ; I do not.
Mr. Stripling. How long did Mr. Crosley remain in the apartment?
Before you answer that, I believe you testified on August 16 on page
52," you were asked by Mr. Nixon :
Can you state again just when he first rented the apa rtment ?
-referring to Mr. Crosley. You say :
I think it was about June of 1935.
Do you recall whether or not it was June ?
Mr. Hiss. My best recollection at the time I testified was it was
about June. Whether it was a little earlier or a little later after 14
years or so, I am afraid I just am not able to recall.
Mr. Stripling. Do you recall how long he remained at the
apartment?
Mr. Hiss. I have no idea. My recollection is that he was entitled,
as far as I was concerned, to remain for several months and that I was
in a position to assure him that he could remain for several months.
Whether he did or not would be no concern of mine.
Mr. Stripling. At this point, then, Mr. Chairman, I should like to
read into the record a letter from Randall H. Hagner & Co., real
11 Page 52 denotes original transcript. See p. 956, this publication
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1087
estate, lo21 Connecticut Avenue, Washington, D. C. The letter is ad-
dressed to Eobert E. Stripling, chief investigator of the Committee
on Un-American Activities, and signed by Mary Petherbridge. The
letter reads :
Del\k Mr. Stripling : Our reedrds show tliat Alger Hiss made application to us
throush the manager, Mrs. W. M. .Teffers, on May 29, 1934, for apartment 42,
2831 Twenty-eighth Street NW. His tenancy began on July 1, 1934, for 1 year.
We assume "from the application that a lease was matle. However, our old leases
have been destroyed. Mr. Hiss vacated ou June 28, 1935. His previous address
given at that time was 3411 O Street NW. The number of occupants was listed
as two adults and one child. This apartment was vacant for the month of July.
On August 1, 1935, it was rented to W. E. Isemann.
Very truly yours.
Mr. Hiss. May I say it is apparent that the committee has been
better staifed with people to inquire into records than I have been.
May I also say with reference to my earlier statement about the assist-
ance of friends, that I did not mean to exclude any friends who have
been helpful by not mentioning their names.
It might be appropriate to mention that Mr. Bradley, whose name
has come into the testimony, is also a personal friend of some standing.
Mr. Stripling. Now, Mr. Hiss, when you moved to the P Street
house, did you take your furniture with you?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Stripling. I liave been and will continue to do the
best I can to remember the.se housekeeping details. I have talked to
my wife on the telephone and asked her to remember as best she can.
My best recollection is that I did not take all of the furniture that
was in the Twenty-eighth Street apartment when I first moved into
the P Street house ; that I left some of it beliind for Mr. Crosley's use.
As I testified, it is my recollection that the house at 2905 P Street
was f iirnished or partly furnished, and that we did not actually need
all of our own furniture in order to furnisli that house.
Mr. Stripling. So you sublet the apartment to Mr. Crosley; is that
correct ?
Mr. Hiss. Under the circumstances I have stated, according to my
best recollection, the answer is "Yes."
Mr, Stripling. Now, you stated that Mr. Crosley and his wife and
baby stayed several days in your house on P Street prior to moving
into the apartment. Is that correct?
Mr. Hiss. That again is to the best of my recollection, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. And the reason they stayed with you is because they
were waiting for a moving van to come down ?
Mr. Hiss. So I recall, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Now, I will read your testimony which you gave on
August 16, beginning on page 53.^-
Mr. NixON. Mr. Stripling, before you go into that may I clear up
the matter about the lease ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
JVlr. Nixon. I think that from the testimony Mr. Hiss has given and
from the documents Mr. Stripling has presented that it is very clear
as to what these terminal dates for this lease were.
As I understand it, Mr. Hiss' lease on the house he moved to on P
Street started on May 1 ; is that correct ?
Mr. Stripling. That is correct.
" Page 53 denotes original transcript. See p. 1093, thin pu'licntion.
1088 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss has suggested he might have moved into tliat
house before, that as a courtesy he might have received a month or so
free rent before he moved into the house, but the lease as far as the
records show — he first had his rental contract on his new house on
May 1.
You have also indicated that the apartment which he sublet to Mr.
Crosley was rerented to a new tenant, not Mr. Crosley, commencing
August 1. Is that correct?
Mr. Stripling. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. Now, when did Mr. Hiss' lease on the apartment run
out ? Have you put that matter into the record yet ?
Mr, Stripling. That is in the record. It expired on the 28th of
June.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss' lease on the apartment expired on the 28th
of June ?
Mr. Stripling. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. In other words, the amount of time for which his sub-
lease could have run would be approximately from May 1 to June 28.
That was the period at which Mr. Hiss had the disposal of the apart-
ment and in which he could have been in the new house. Is that
correct ?
Mr. Stripling. That is what it appears from the records.
Mr. Hiss. Is that a question to me or to Mr. Stripling ?
Mr. NixoN. I am making the statement. If you have objection to
the statement, you are perfectly welcome to make it.
Mr. Hiss. The only thing I would like to say, Mr. Nixon, first, in
<2:eneral there seems to me to be relativelv little disagreement as be-
tween the testimony of Mr. Chambers as he now calls himself and me
with respect to the period and the circumstances of our acquaintance.
As I said in the letter which I sent to the chairman, the chairman
said he read my letter of yesterday in the newspapers. That was
certainly not necessary. The letter was delivered to the chairman's
office, a signed letter by me.
The Chairman. The Chair would like to say that the chairman
was not in the office wdien your letter arrived, but he did have an
opportunity to read the letter in this morning's New York Herald
Tribune.
Mr. Hiss. It was delivered to your office yesterday afternoon, Mr.
Chairman.
The important issues, the important charges are not questions of
leases, but questions of whether I was a Communist, and it was to
try to get the issues raised that are the real issues — it seems to be
topsy-turvy to be talking only about leases, Mr. Nixon; in such a
serious charge as this it seems to me we should be getting after the
({uestion of my record and what did people who worked closely and
intimately with me think of me.
The Chairman. Mr. Hiss, I would like to say again that the com-
mittee appreciates your suggestions as to how to conduct these hear-
ings, but we do have certain questions to ask and, if you don't mind.
Mr. Nixon will continue questioning if he has any more questions.
Mr. Nixon. Yes; I have. I would like to comment upon Mr. Hiss^
statement that the only issue in this hearing today is whether or not
Mr. Hiss was a Communist.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1089'
The issue in this hearing today is whether or not Mr. Hiss or Mr.
Chambers has conmiitted perjury before this committee, as well as
whether Mr. Hiss is a Communist.
Now, as far as these what are termed housekee])ing details by Mr.
Hiss are concerned, it isn't the intention of the committee to hold Mr.
Hiss to exact dates, it isn't the intention of the committee to hold him
to exact details oin matters that happened years ago, but it certainly is
the intention of the committee to question both Mr. Hiss and Mr.
Chambers ver}' closely on the matter of their acquaintanceship, because
it is on that issue that the truth or falsity of the statements made by
]Mr. Hiss and Mr. Chambers will stand or fall,
Mr. Hiss. May I say, j\Ir. Nixon, that that does not seem to me a
very rational basis for determining credibility. Obviously, the com-
mittee may ask the questions it chooses.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss, ^'ou are an attorney. I think you are aware
l)robably of the standard instruction which is given to the jury on cases
of credibility of witnesses.
That instruction, as I recall it. is that if any matter a witness is
found to be telling an untruth on any question which is material and
Avhich is raised during the course of the court's proceedings, his credi-
bility on other questions is also suspect.
Now, as far as this matter is concerned, you, yourself, have made
an issue of the fact as to ( 1 ) whether you knew Chambers at all — that
issue has now been resolved ; and (2) how well you knew Chambers and
whether ^'ou knew him as a Communist.
That is the purpose of this questioning now.
Now, I would a])preciate it if you would again comment npon the
matter of this lease.
Do I understand that May 1 to June 28 would be approximately the
length of the rental agreement with Mr. Crosley ?
]Mr. Hiss. May I refer back to what I said earlier this morning, that
my recollection in terms of an impression about these evf/.its is that I
considered that I had the disposition or could assure the disposition
of the Twenty-eighth Street apartment for a period of several months.
Whether my lease overlapped — whether my legal lease overlapped my
moving into the P Street apartment by several months, or whether it
was somewhat less than that, and I was aware that afiyone who wanted
to get the apartment month to month or any other way after my lease
expired during the summer, whether that was part of my thinking at
the time I frankly can't tell in terms of details.
The significant thing in my memory is my recollection that I was in
position to assure Crosley of several months' occupancy of the apart-
ment which I had been living in on Twenty-eighth Street.
Mr. Nixon. I think we can cut througli it with these short questions :
You did not lease the apartment to Crosley until you had moved
into the other house : is that correct ?
Mr. Hiss. That is my best recollection.
Mr. Nixon. Your lease on the other house according to the records
becran on INIay 1. You will agree with that?
Mr. Hiss. That is what the records seem to show. I have not seen
the records myself.
Mr. Nixon. We have the letter which Mr. Stripling just handed
80408—48 38
3^090 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
you. If the records show that, you will agree that the records are
correct on that point ?
Mr. Hiss. I hav no reason for questioning the records.
Mr. Nixon. You suggested that we go to the records.
Mr. Hiss. I didn't hear you.
]Mr. Nixon. You suggested that we go to tlie records,
Mr. Hiss. I have, indeed.
Mr. Nixon. That is what we have done, and it shows that lease
began on May 1.
Mr. Hiss. I have been trying to go to them, too, Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Certainly. The records also show that your lease on
the apartment ran out on June 28. It is quite apparent, then, that
tlie time Mr. Crosley could have stayed in this apartment was a period
of approximately 8 to D weeks from May 1 and June 28.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, I doubt if this is the occasion for any argu-
mentation as to what the facts mean.
Mr. Nixon. I am not arguing.
Mr. Hiss. But I think I heard Mr. Stripling read that the apart-
ment, according to Randall Hagner — were they the agents?
Mv. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Hiss. According to tlieir records was not leased to anyone dur-
ing the month of July ; so there could be a third month when, if Mr.
Crosley had wanted to stay on in that apartment, he could presumably
have done so by arrangements with Randall Hagner.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, this miglit clarify that point. Ac-
cording to the records of the Potomac Electric Co., the electricity was
turned off at the Twenty-eighth Street apartment on June 29, 19'35.
Mr. Nixon. When was the gas turned oif in that apartment?
Mr. Stripling. It was turned off on June 26, 1935.
Mr. Nixon. June 26. If Mr. Crosley did stay in that a]")artment
another month up to August 1, he stayed there without gas or
electricity.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, ma^^ I comment? I have not been testifying
at any time as to how long Mr. Crosley stayed there. I have been talk-
ing about how long I thought I was in position to let him stay there,
to facilitate his staying there, if he so desired.
I do not know and I have not attempted to testify as to how long he in
fact staved there.
Mr. NixoN. You will now agree, though, that it could only have been
for 2 months?
Mr. Hiss. You mean how long he actually stayed there? On the
basis of gas and electricity being turned off and this man's record I
don't think I would want to say what he was doing or wasn't doing.
Mr. NixoN. You think he might have stayed in the apartment even
with the gas off?
Mr. Hiss. Let's not speculate.
Mr. Nixon. With a small baby.
Mr. Hiss. Let's not speculate, Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Proceed, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. PIiss. I don't know whether his wife and baby were with him
at that time, or whether they were always with him or not.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Hiss, George Crosley, who you testified you
first met in 1934 — do you know of anyone here in Washington who
knew him as George Crosley ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1091
Mr. Hiss. In answer to tliat question, Mr. Stripling, I have naturally
among the very many other things that I have been trying to check in
the few daj's since Monda}' of last week, I have been trying to run clown
the list of stalf members of the Senate Committee Investigating the
Munitions Industry.
As far as I can find out, there is no one single official list anywhere
now available. I have recalled certain of the members of the staff. I
I'ecalled three names offhand of jjeople that Crosley might have met in
addition to me around the committee.
I mentioned Mr. Raushenbush, the chief investigator. He is away on
vacation. I have seen in the press that the press reached him and he
doesn't have any recollection of Crosley. I want to talk personally to
Mr. Raushenbush. I want to see if he can recall from my description
of the circumstances under wdiich I knew Crosley more than he has told
the press.
I recalled the name of Robert Wohlford.
Mr. Stripling. You gave both of these names to the committee in
New York?
Mr. Hiss. Yes; I did — who was also a member of the staff. I re-
called my off-the-cuff recollection. He is now in New York, I under-
stand. I have asked friends of mine to talk to Bob Wohlford.
I remembered also the name of Miss Elsie Gullender, who was, as
it were, the chief receptionist of the committee. She w^as Mr. Raush-
enbush's secretary and acted as sort of an over-all chief of the secre-
tarial staff.
If Crosley had been referred to me by the central office of the com-
mittee— and our offices were scattered all over the Senate Office Build-
ing and we took what space was vacant, what we could get and what
we could use — it would probably have been Miss Gullender who would
first have sent him to me, although he could have come direct to me
because I had been conducting hearings, my name was publicly known,
the cases that I was working on w^ere publicly known.
I have been informed that Miss Elsie Gullender is now dead. I am
not sure that is the fact. I want, if possible, to locate Miss Gullender.
I have been trying to locate other members of the staff and trying to
find out the names of some of the other members.
I have a recollection of one man whose name I have not yet been able
to recall, though I recall his personality. I would like to find out from
him.
I would hope that I will be able to find others than myself and my
wife who remember George Crosley under the circumstances I have
testified to. I shall certainly continue without rest to attempt to find
out all the information I can on this subject and on this man, both as
Crosley and as Chambers, and let the committee have w^hatever I can
find out.
I think we were just beginning the inquiry.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Hiss, is this a fair summary, then, of your position
up to now ?
That as of today you have not found anybody other than your wdfe
who ever knew this man over here under the name of George Crosley ?
Mr. Hiss. I received a telephone call — rather, one of my counsel
did — from someone, a woman, who said she had known George Cros-
ley at this time, that she was fearful of getting her employer in Dutch
1092 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
or something by publicity. We were not able to trace tlie call. She-
may have been imagining.
So far, the answer to your question is : I have not yet been able to
find any witness other than my wife who remembers him as George
Crosley.
Mr. MuNDT. Let me ask this question. The possibility would seem-
very plausible to me that since Mr. Crosley, as you call him, lived in
your home for awhile while he was getting his furniture transferred,,
that your brother Donald undoubtedly visited your home frequently.
Have you ever conferred with Donald to see whether he knew this-
man as George Crosley?
Mr. Hiss. I have asked him and he has no recollection.
Mr. MuNDT. He had no recollection?
Mr. Hiss. No; and I have tried to locate ni}^ neighbors in the apart-
ment. My next door neighbor I have been unable to locate, though
I have his name and we are doing our best to find him. It takes a long
time to reconstruct these details after a long time when one's resources
are limited.
Mr. Stripling. Now, Mr. Chairman, the three names the witness
lias mentioned — Elsie Gullender, Robert Wohlford, Stephen Raushen-
bush — were the three that he gave the committee in New York, and
we asked him if he could furnish us the names of three people to
corroborate his statement that Whittaker Chambers was known ta
him as George Crosley in 1934 and '35.
The New York Herald Tribune carried a story wliich stated that
they had communicated with Mr. Raushenbush and he had no recol-
lection of it. As Mv. Hiss has stated, accoi'ding to our investigation^
Elsie Gullender died September 24, 1946. We have been endeavoring
to locate Robert Wohlford. His office here at the Department of
Justice had advised us that he was ill. We have sent numerous tele-
grams, all of which have been returned.
Now, because Mr. Hiss stated Mr. Crosley was a free-lance writer
for American magazine and other publications
Mr. Hiss. May I interrupt ? What I think Mr. Stripling has been
stating in summary is exactly my recollection of my testimony. I did
not testify as a fact that Mr. Crosley wrote for American magazine.
I testified that my best recollection was that he had told me that
American magazine was one of the magazines he hoped to sell his
free-lance articles about the Munitions Committee to.
Mr. Stripling. Well, Mr. Chairman, we asked the Library of Con-
gress, Director of Legislative Reference Service, to check their files
for any articles by George Crosley.
The following letter was received from Ernest S. Griffith, Director^
Legislative Reference Service, addressed to Mr. Benjamin Mandel,
Director of Research :
Dear Mb. Mandel: Iu response to your request for any writings by George
Crosley, the foUowing sources have been examined with reference to George
Crosley or Crossley. The results of the search are indicated.
Readers Guide to Periodical Literature, January 1929-June 1941 — No refer-__
ence.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1093
Public Catalogue — Two references, one to a l)ook of poems written by G.
■Croslev in 11)0."), the other to a scientiSc pamphlet on ultraviolet light by G. E.
<Crosley, M. D., in 1936.
Copyright Division — No additional references.
Any further searching you may suggest, we shall be glad to undertake.
Sincerely j'ours,
Ernest S. Griffith,
Director, Legislative Reference Service.
I also have a letter here, Mr. Chairman, from the American maga-
zine, that states that they have never published any articles by George
Crosley.
Now. Mr. Hiss. I should like to read now from your testimony which
you gave before the committee on August 16, page 53 : "
Mr. Stripling. What kind of automobile did that fellow have? —
referring to Mr. Crosley.
Mr. Hi.ss. No kind of automobile. I sold him an automobile. I had an old
Ford that I threw in with the apartment and had been trying to trade it in and
get rid of it. I had an old, old Ford we had kept for sentimental reasons. We
got it just before we were married in 1929.
Mr. Stripling. Was it a model A or model T?
i\Ir. Hiss. Early A model with a trunk on the back, a slightly collegiate model.
Mr. Stripling. What color?
Mr. Hiss. Dark blue. It wasn't very fancy, but it had a sassy little trunk on
the back.
Mr. Nixon. You sold that car?
Mr. Hiss. I threw it in. He wanted a way to get around, and I said, "Fine ; I
want to get rid of it. I have another car, and we kept it for sentimental reasons,
•not worth a damn. I let him have it along with the rent.
Xow% would you give the committee the arrangements of this lease
again, Mr. Hiss.
Mr. Hiss. Of the lease of the apartment ?
Mr. Stripling. That is right. And the car, the manner in which
jou threw the car in.
Mr. Hiss. My best recollection is that at the time, or shortly after we
first talked about Crosley's subletting my apartment, he said that he
wished to get a car because his family would be with him while he w^as
in Washington. I think he asked if you could rent a car, and my best
recollection is that I told him that I had an old car which I w^ould let
him have, a car which had practically no financial value. That is the
t)est recollection I have on the car tra^isaction after all these years.
Mr. MuNDT. Was the reason that that car had no value to you the
iact that 5^ou had another automobile at the time?
Mr. Hiss. My best recollection is that at some time, Mr. Mundt, I had
hot\\ a Plymouth and this old Ford. Whether that, overlap occurred
jjrior to mj letting Crosley use the Ford, I cannot recall with positive-
ness. I do have a very definite, although general, recollection that I
had both a Ford and a Pljanouth for a period of time, with the Ford
of no use, deteriorating, being left outdoors.
Mr. Stripling. Now. Mr. Chairman, I should like to read from
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Stripling, may I interrupt there to sort of pursue
"Page 53 denotes origlual transcript. See p. 957, this publication.
1094 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
this a little further, with regard to what Mr. Mundt has asked Mr.
Hiss?
Mr. Hiss, 3^ou would remember if you had two automobiles at one
time ; would you not?
Mr. Hiss. I say I do remember that I did have two automobiles at
one time. That made quite an impiession on me.
Mr. Hebert. It made an impression on you that you owned two
automobiles at one time?
Mr. Hiss. That is right. But, as to the particular time wlien I had
the two automobiles, it was sometime during this general period. As
to the particular time, without consulting the records, I am not able
to testify with posit iveness.
Mr. Hebekt. I want to get this clear. In other words, you would
not have given up the mode of transportation if you did not have any
transportation yourself.
Mr. Hiss. Unless I was not going to need automobile transportation
for a period of time.
Mr. Hebert. Then the logical assumption would be that you did
have two automobiles at the same time that you gave this man Crosley
your automobile.
Mr. Hiss. That is my best recollection. Whether it is accurate in
detail I will know better when I get the records and can attempt to
refresh my recollection, Mr. Hebert.
Mr. Stripling. Now, Mr. Chairman, let me put the remainder of the
testimony regarding the ownership of the automobile which is on
page 56.^*
Mr. Nixon. You gave this Ford car to Crosley?
Mr. Hiss. Threw it in along with the apartment and charged the rent and
threw the car in at the same time.
Mr. Nixon. In other words, added a little to the rent to cover the car?
Mr. Hiss. No; I think I charged him exactly what I was paying for the rent
and threw the car in in addition. I don't think I got any compensation.
Mr. Stripling. You just gave him the car?
Mr. Hiss. I think the car just went right in with it. I don't remeinher whether
we had settled on the terms of the rent before the car question came up, or
whether it came up and then on the basis of the car and the apartment I said,
"Well, you ought to pay the full rent."
On page 58 ^^ th-e record continues :
Mr. Stkipling. What kind of a bill of sale did you give Crosley?
Mr. Hiss —
ref eri-ing to the car —
Mr. Hiss. I think I just turned over — in the District you get a certificate of
title, I think it is. I think I just simply turned it over to him.
Mr. Stripling. Handed it to him?
Mr. Hiss. Yes.
Mr. STRfPLiNG. No evidence of any transfer. Did he record the title?
Mr. Hiss. That I haven't any idea. This is a car wliich had been sitting on
the streets in snows for a year or two. I once got a parking fine because I forgot
where it was parked. We were using the other car.
Now, Mr. Hiss, is that the testimony, according to your best recol-
lection?
Mr. Hiss. That testimony was according to my best recollection at
the time I gave it, and that is why I gave it. I have not yet been able
to get the record, as my counsel has testified. We have not been able
^* Page 56 denotes original transori))t. See p. 95S. this publication.
^ Page 58 denotes original transcript. See p. 959, this publication.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1095
to ascertain from the Motor Vehicle Bureau people what their records
show with respect to that car.
Mr. Stripling. What did Mr. Crosley do with this Ford, do you
know ?
Mr. Hiss. I frankly do not recall. It is possible that he used it; it
is even possible that he returned it to me after using it. I really would
not be sure of the details.
My impression and recollection was that I got rid of it by giving it
to him, but if the records show that it bounced back to me from him,.
that would not surprise me either.
Mr. Stripling. Well, as a matter of fact, Mr. Hiss, you sold the car
a 3'ear later, did you not ?
Mr. Hiss. Not to my recollection. I have no definite recollection
of it.
Mr. Stripling. You do not recall selling the car ?
Mr. Hiss. I have no definite recollection.
Mr. Stripling. Did you have a Pljnnouth during this period ? Did
you have another car ?
Mr. Hiss. My recollection is that I did have a Plymouth during part
of the same time that I had the Ford.
Mr. Stripling. Now, Mr. Chairman, I have here an application for
a certificate of title of the Motor Vehicles and Traffic Bureau of the
District of Columbia, wherein it states that Alger Hiss, 2905 P Street,
NAY, purchased or acquired the
aboye-described car : Plymouth, new, model PJ ; year, 1935 ; body, sedan.
It gives the serial number, engine number, and states :
How secured : Conditional sale ; date, September 7, 1935, purchased from the
Smoot Motor Co., Inc.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask a question at this
point.
The Chairman. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss, your recollection is still that you gave the car
to Crosley as part of the apartment deal : is that correct?
Mr. Hiss. My recollection is as definite as it can be after this lapse
of time, Mr. Nixon, that as I was able to give him the use of the apart-
ment, I also and simultaneously, I think, although it could possibly
have been a little later, gave him the use of the model A 1929 old Ford,
That is my best recollection.
Mr. Nixon. That was in the spring of 1935 ?
Mr. Hiss. My best recollection is that the car and the apartment
transactions were simultaneous. That I cannot be sure of without
checking the records more thoroughly.
Mr. Nixon. Well, there were facts, as I recall, just checking through
the record, 18 occasions in which you were asked the specific question,
specifically about this on Monday and Tuesday in the record, as to
whether you had given him the car, sold him the car, threw it in, given
him the title, and as to whether it was part of the apartment deal, and
in each case you said. "Yes,'' and at that time you did not qualify your
answers with "to the best of my recollection."
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon — excuse me.
Mr. Nixon. Proceed ; I am sorry.
Mr. Hiss. It is my recollection that on the 16th and on the I7th I
informed the committee that I had not been able to check my records.
1096 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. On the leases.
Mr. Hiss. At one point I said to the committee that for them to
ask me questions about various personal details of long ago did not
seem to me entirely fair to me, because of the various leaks that had
been occurring with respect to supposed secret testimony.
I said that in spite of those reservations, if the committee wanted
me to testify as to the best of my recollection, unsupported by records,
I would, of course, do so, and I remember Mr. Hebert particularly
spoke up and said he did want me to, and so did you, and I said, on
that understanding of what I had said, made no difference to the
committee, they still wanted me to testify, and on the basis of recol-
lection, after all these years, I was perfectly prepared to testify. I
think the record would shCw that, Mr. Nixon, and I am glad the en-
tire record is going to be made generally available to the public and
not just excerpts, which, in the past, have somehow reached the press,
and which today are being put in out of context by Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss, in that connection, I think the record should
show that you requested and have received, a full copy of your testi-
mony that you have given before this committee, both in public and
in executive session ; is that correct ?
Mr. Hiss. May I answer that question by saying it was a long, hard
pull to get that testimony. I was promised it long before I got it. I
remember the explanation of the committee that Mr. Banister, who
was taking it, the stenographer, had not been able to transcribe it.
It took me a long time, with my office here constantly calling both the
committee and the stenographer, for me ever to get it. I got it quite
belatedly.
Mr. Nixon. When did you get it?
Mr. Hiss. You gave me part of it, a relatively small part, perhaps
half of the 16th, on the 18th.
Mr. NixoN. On the iTth ; on the 17th, the day you testified, 24 hours
after you gave the testimony, j^ou had the first half.
Mr. Hiss. Did you give it to me the day I testified in New York ?
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss, you recall
Mr. Hiss. Or was it some time — I am asking whether it was the
day I testified or the day Mrs. Hiss testified ?
Mr. NixON. You will recall it was the day you testified.
Mr. Hiss. Well, I do not challenge what you say. I do remember
the difficulty with which I was pursuing getting it. I had been as-
sured that it would be ready the first thing next morning, and it was
not.
Mr. Nixon. In other words, the first half of your testimony that
you gave in your executive session on ISIonday you received 2-1 hours
later on Tuesday, when I delivered it to you in New York.
Mr. Hiss. After very considerable inquiry and demand, and having
heard a variety of stories out of the committee as to why it was not
possible. There had to be a letter of approval, there had to be this,
and that, and the rest of my testimony I got late Friday, only by
having a messenger fly it up lo New York to get it to me, Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. The messenger received that testimony from the com-
mitte on Friday morning, did he not?
Mr. Hiss. I do not know the exact time. I know he was not able
to get it to me in New York until about 5 or 5 : 30 of the afternoon
of Friday, and I know he flew in order to get it to me, Mr. Nixon.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1097"
Mr. NixoK. That was 48 hours after the testimony had been com-
pleted ; is that correct ?
Mr. Hiss, The record will shoAV exactly when the testimony was
completed. If it is 48 hours, it is 48 hours.
Mr. Nixon. That is right. In other words, you had the testimony
for 5 days then ?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, the way you put the question would indicate
that if I had done nothing it would have reached me 48 hours after.
I had to move heaven and earth to try to get it.
Mr. Nixon. Well, the point is, Mr. Hiss, that you got the testimony,,
didn't you, and you have had it for 5 days?
Mr. Hiss. I have had the testimony since Friday afternoon.
Mr. Nixon. All the testimony that you have given before the com-
mittee.
Mr. Hiss. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. That is correct.
Now, returning to the automobile, did you give Crosley a car?
Mr. Hiss. I gave Crosley, according to my best recollection
Mr. Nixon. Well, now, just a moment on that point. I do not
want to interrupt you on that "to the best of my recollection," but
you certainly can testify, "Yes" or "No" as to whether you gave
Crosley a car. How many cars have you given away in your life,
Mr. Hiss? [Laughter.] That is a serious question.
Mr. Hiss. I have only had one old car of a financial value of $25
in my life. That is the car that I let Crosley have the use of.
Mr. Nixon. This was a car that had a certain sentimental meaning"
to you, I think you said.
Mr. Hiss. And that is why I had not been prepared previously to
accept merely $25 for it.
Mr. Nixon. That is right.
Mr. Hiss. I was more interested in having it used than in merely
getting $25 for it.
Mr. Nixon. And this car, which had a sentimental value to you,,
was the only car you ever gave away in your life ?
Mr. Hiss. It is not only the only car that I ever gave away in my
life, it is the only car of that kind that I have described that I ever
had.
Mr. Nixon. I see. And you cannot recall whether or not you did
give Crosley that car ?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, according to my best recollection I defi-
nitely gave Crosley the use of the car, as I was able to give him the
use of my apartment.
]Mr. MuNDT. May I interrupt just a minute ? On page 53 ^^ of these
hearings which took place in New York, at which I was not present,
the last 2 days, I, too, have read all of the testimony in this whole
case, and you were asked the question "What kind of automobile did
that fellow have," the man you called Crosley, and you said, "No kind
of automobile. I sold him an automobile."
Now, Mr. Hiss, I am trying to get at the truth of this, and I wish
you would make a statement and stand by it. Once you say, "I sold
him an automobile, period." Now, 5'ou come here and say "I gave
him the use of the car," and then you say "I cannot tell whether or
not after he had the car he gave it back to me or not."
"P. 53 denotes original transcript. See p. 957, this publication.
1098 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Well, now, in 1934 and 1935 we were in a depression ; automobiles
were not so numerous and so plentiful that a Government employee
would forget what happened to the cars that he had in his possession.
You certainly know whether or not you gave Crosley an automobile;
vou know whether or not Crosley gave that car back, and we want the
truth, that is all.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Mundt, I am as interested in getting at the truth
of this matter as any member of this committee can be, and I shall
do all I possibly can, whatever it costs me, within my means, to get
at the truth.
Mr. Mundt. Then, tell us the truth.
Mr. Hiss. Now, what is the nature of your question? Will you
repeat it, please, because I paid more attention to the embellish-
ments
Mr. Mundt. Did you not testify in New York under oath to the
effect that "I sold him — Crosley — an automobile?"' I find it here
in the printed testimony which we are now releasing to the public at
the request of the committee, and it is your request.
Mr. STmi'LiNG. That is page 58,^^
Mr. Hiss. What is the specific question? The embellishments to
jour question made more impression on me than the question.
Mr, Mundt. There are no embellishments, and I ask you : Did you
testify under oath in New York
Mr. Hiss. I certainly did.
Mr. Mundt. As follows : "What kind of automobile did that fellow
have ?" Pointing at Crosley. And you said, "No kind of automobile.
I sold him an automobile."
Did you say that or not?
Mr. Hiss. If the record says I said it
Mr. Mundt, The record says that.
Mr. Hiss. I do not challenge the record.
Mr. JSIuNDT. Your counsel can look at page 53 ; ^"^ there it is, it is in
the record.
Mr, Hiss. Mr. Mundt, there may be one or two inaccuracies in the
record which we will have to correct.
Mr, Mundt. Is that an inaccuracy ?
Mr. Hiss. That is not an inaccuracy in the record. I have complete
•confidence in Mr. Banister as a reporter.
Mr. Mundt, You also know whether or not Mi'. Crosley gave you
back the automobile you sold him. You said this car had a good
sentimental value to you, you had kept it a long time. You certainly
know, and we know that you know, whether you got that car back.
We want you to tell us the truth, that is all.
Mr. Hiss. You know a great deal, Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Mundt, It is very hard to know very much about this evasive
type of testimony, but I am trying to get at the truth,
Mr, Hiss, Mr, Mundt, you referred to the depression. It is also a
fact that old second-hand cars had a not considerable value during the
depression. If the depression is relevant to our question, it seems
to me that an additional fact is also relevant. Now, what is the exact
question you are asking me.
^' p. 58 denotes orifjinal transcript. See p. 957, this publication.
'^ P. 53 denotes original transcript. See p. 957, tins publication.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1099
]\Ir. ^SIiTNDT. Yoli have answered it. I have asked it, and you have
answered it.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Miindt, may I interpose a question at that point?
]SIr. Ml NDT. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. As far as the vahie of Ford roadsters at that time go,
I think it might be relevant to quote from the want ads which appeared
in the Washington Evening Star in June 1985 as to the vahie of 1929
Ford roadsters^ The vahie which is given here, tlie lowest cash value,
is $59. In consulting the dealers in Washington, the committee in-
vestigators found that the trade-in value on a car would be more than
$59. The lowest cash value of all the want ads that appeared at
that time for '29 Ford roadsters was $59.
I only bring this in to show that the car had something a little
more than a sentimental value, even in 1935.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, as I have testified before, my recollection is
that I was at no time ever told that that car, during this period, had
a value of more than $25 or $30 or $35.
Mr. MuNDT. Well, let us assume it was worth $35. Are you a man,
or were you at that time a man. of such means that $35 meant nothing
to you at all ?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Mundt, as I have also testified, I had a sentimental
attachment to this car which transcended $35 or $20 or $25 or $30.
Rather than simply see it go on the scrap heap through a trade-in,
or a casual sale. I had hung on to it as it depreciated in value.
Mr. Mundt. Very well ; but it had depreciated down to $35, accord-
ing to your testimony, or $59, acording to the official Blue Book at
the time, or something over $59, as a trade-in value.
Now, you said you sold him the car. and you again repeated that
toda3% and on page 58 ^^ of your statement.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Mundt, I think I also, in the course of that same
testimony, and with equal truthfulness, so far as I could recall, said
that I gave it to him. I have not been through the record on this
particular point. I think you will find various references to the
transaction on the 16th, the testimony of the 16th.
Mr. Mundt. That is right.
Mr. Hiss. And the testimony on the 17th.
Mr. Mundt. You testified originally
Mr. Hiss. It may be
Mr. Mundt. Wait a minute. It may be that you testified
The Chairma^t. Let us have one speaker at a time.
]Mr. Mundt. Yes ; you have something to say ?
Mr. Hiss. It may be that you are pointing to the one place in the
testimony where I said "sold." It may be I said "sold" more than
once. I have not checked, Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Mundt, may I just, to clear this up, say that I
have made a study of this record on the automobile, and I would like
to read for the record at this time the references, all the references,
which I have been able to find concerning what Mr. Hiss did say about
this car. I want the committee to know the type of question and the
type of answer.
^ p. 58 denotes original transcript. See p. 958, this publication.
1100 COMAIUNIST ESPIONAGE
I also want the committee to know whether or not in these cases Mr.
Hiss qualified his answers with the "to the best of my recollection"
statement.
I want to say that before I do read this, that Mr. Hiss, as he has
stated when he first began to testify said that he did not want to testify
concerning his leases, and his apartments, without checking the leases,
and that on that point he did want to testify to the best of his recol-
lection.
Now, let me read this just for the record at this point so that there
will be no question in the minds of the members of the committee or
of Mr. Hiss that we are reading only parts of the record on this
automobile.
The Chairman. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. MuNDT. That is a good idea.
Mr. Nixon. The first reference comes on page 52,^^ and I shall read :
Mr. Stripling. What kind of automobile did that fellow have?
Mr. Hiss. No kind of automobile. I sold liim an automobile. I had an old
Ford that I threw in with the apartment and had been trying to trade it in and
get rid of it. I had an old, old Ford we had kept for sentimental reasons. We
got it just before we were married in 1929.
Mr. Stripling. Was it a model A or model T?
Mr. Hiss. Early A model with a trunk on the back, a slightly collegiate model.
Mr. Stripling. What color?
Mr. Hiss. Dark blue. It wasn't very fancy but it had a sassy little trunk on
the back.
Mr. Nixon. You sold that car?
Mr. Hiss. I threw it in. He wanted a way to get around and I said, "Fine. I
want to get rid of it. I have another car, and we kept it for sentimental reasons,
not worth a damn." I let him have it along with the rent.
Mr. Davis. To make the record clear, I think you said page 52 — I
think it is page 53.^^
Mr. Nixon. Page 53, you are correct; it is 53 that I am reading from.
There is a strike-over on my page ; it looks like 52.
Mr. Davis. Mine, too.
Mr. Nixon. I have that page :
"I have another car, and we kept it for sentimental reasons, not worth a damn."
I let him have it along with the rent.
The next reference to the car comes on page 56 - of the record, as
I recall it, and I must say that there may have been one spot, two
spots, that I have missed, but I have attempted to get them all here so
that the record will be clear.
Mr. Nixon. You gave this Ford car to Crosley?
Mr. Hiss. Threw it in along with the apartment and charged the rent and
threw the car in at the same time.
Mr. Nixon. In other words, added a little to the i-ent to cover the car?
Mr. Hiss. No ; I think I charged him exactly what I was paying for the rent
and threw the car in in addition. I don't think I got any compensation.
Mr. Stripling. You just gave him the car?
Mr. Hiss. I think the car just went right in with it. I do not remember
whether we had settled on the terms of the I'ent before the car question came
up, or whether it came up and then on the basis of the car and the apartment I
said, "Well, you ought to pay the full rent."
The next reference that I find in the record concerning the car is
on page 58,-^ starting at the bottom of page 57 :
="• p. 52 denotes original transcript. See p. 954, this publication.
" P. 53 denotes original transcript. See p. 954, this pul)lication.
*- P. 56 denotes original transcript. See p. 958, this publication.
^' Pp. 57 and 58 denote original transcript. See p. 959, this publication.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1101
IMr. Stripling. What kind of a car did you get?
Mr. Hiss. A Plj-mouth.
Mr. Stripling. A Plymouth?
Mr. Hiss. Semisedan.
Mr. Stripling. Four-door?
INIr. Hiss. I think I have always had only two-door.
Mr. Stripling. What kind of bill of sale did you give Crosley?
I should like to interpose at this point that when a bill of sale is
discussed, a bill of sale refers to a transfer of title to an automobile.
Mr. Hiss. I think I just turned over— in the District you get a certificate of
title, I think it is. I think I just simply turned it over to him.
Mr. Stripling. Handed it to him?
Mr. Hiss. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. No evidence of any transfer. Did he record the title?
Mr. Hiss. That I have not any idea. This is a car which had been sitting
on tlie streets in snows for a year or two. I once got a parking fine because I
forgot where it was parked. We were using the other car.
I turn now to the testimony — I think this is the next reference — to
the testimony given on the following day, on the iTth, and I will refer
the committee to page 13 -^ of that testimony, and we again pick up the
car at that point :
In the course of the negotiation he referred to the fact that he also wanted
an automobile.
And then, turning again — that is Mr. Hiss' testimony — I will refer
the committee to page 19,^^ the testimony on Tuesday, the I7th —
we will start at the bottom of page 18 so that you can get the continuity :
Mr. NixON. So you agreed with him tliat he could move into your apart-
ment for .3 months, approximately?
Mr. Hiss. That is correct.
Mr. NixoN. Which would be for a consideration of, say, $225, roughly?
Mr. Hiss. Whatever the actual cost to me was.
Mr. Nixon. And then there was some conversation about a car. What was
that?
Mr. Hiss. There was. Mr. Crosley said that while he was in Washington
he wondered if he could get a rented car or something, because he would like
to have it while his family were with with him, get out week ends, something
like that. I said, "You came to just the right place. I will be very :5lad to
throw a car in because I have been trying to get rid of an old car which we have
kept solely for sentimental reasons which we couldn't get anything on for
trade-in or sale." I would be very glad to let him have the car because we
wanted somebody to make real use of it. We had had it sitting on the city
streets because we had a new one.
Mr. Nixon. It was a '29 Ford?
Mr. Hiss. One of the first model A Fords.
Mr. Nixon. The year of this transaction would be 1935?
Mr. Hiss. That would be my best recollection.
Mr. Nixon. A 6-year-old Ford?
Mr. Hiss. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. You just gave him the car with his $225 rental?
Mr. Hiss. As part of the total contract. That is my best recollection.
Mr. Nixon. The rent was simply the going rate, as you indicated?
Mr. Hiss. That is right.
Mr. NixoN. And you just threw in this 6-year-old car with it?
l\Ir. Hiss. That is my best recollection. I don't think it figured as a financial
element in the tran.saction.
Mr. NixoN. Do you know the Blue Book value of a 1929 Ford in 1935?
Mr. Hiss. I certainly don't. I know what the going rate was with sellers of
new cars. I think the most I had ever been offered for it was $25 or $30
at that time, a few months before that.
" p. 13 denotes original transcript. See p. 980, this publication.
'^ Pp. 18 and 19 denote original transcript. See p. 982, tliis publication.
1102 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. So you gave him this car?
Mr. Hiss. As part of the whole transaction.
I now turn to page 40 ^^ of the record on Tuesday :
Mr. Nixon. You never knew this man under the name of Carl?
Mr. Hiss. I did not.
Mr. Nixon. You never paid this man any money for Communist Party dues?
Mr. Hiss. I certainly did not.
Mr. Nixon. This is the man you gave the car to?
Mr. Hiss. Car?
Mr. Nixon. Yes.
Mr. Hiss. C-a-r — yes.
On page 41
27
Mr. Nixon. You have never given Crosley anything you recall besides the car?
Mr. Hiss. I have no such recollection. I don't consider I gave him the car, but
threw it in with the whole transaction.
Mr. Chairman, those are the references to the car, and there are
these points that I think are significant :
In the first place, we note that Mr. Hiss not only once but at least
twice used the word "sold" in referring to the car.
In the second place, we note that tliere was discussion concerning
a title, a transfer of title, A transfer of title on a car is a matter
which is discussed when you are selling a car to another person, and
transferring it rather than a case where you are loaning the car to
another person ; and Mr. Hiss discussed the transfer of title along that
line.
Mr. Hiss, throughout this testimony, used the words "get rid of" and
he used the words "threw it in," and in answer to a question con-
cerning the words "You gave him tlie car," his answers were as the
record has been read.
Now, I have read those portions from the record because I think
that Mr, Hiss is entitled to have the entire record on the car read in
at this point, and I wanted the committee to know Avhat the references
were.
I will say for myself that I am amazed to hear Mr. Hiss say this
morning that he can only now testify to the best of his recollection
as to whether he ever gave Crosley a car at all, that he is not sure as to
whether or not he transferred the car to Crosley, that he might have
given it to him for his use onh', and that he is not even sure when the
transaction occurred, and I think Mr. Hiss should be given every
opportuuity to explain just what liis recollection was as to this car at
the present time, and if he wants to change his testimony, that he
change it, and tell us exactly what did happen to that car,
Mr, Hiss, Mr. Nixon, I am surprised if not amazed that you said
just now that I testified this morning that I could not remember
whether I had ever let Mr. Crosley have the use of my car. I don't
think I did so testify, Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss, since you have raised that point, you will
recall that when I asked 3'ou, did you give Crosley a car, you said :
Mr. Nixon, to the best of my recollection, I did.
Mr. Hiss. Right.
-" p. 40 denotes original transcript. See p. 991, this publication.
2' P. 41 denotes original transcript. See p. 991, this publication.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1103
Mr. NixoN, And I said :
Mr. Hiss, certainly on this point, you need not qualify your answer with the
words "to the best of my recollection." If you gave him a car, you gave him.
a car, and you should be able to give a categorical answer to the (luestion.
Now, I ask yon ajxain, just so that the record will be clear, did you
give Crosley a car^ And if you can answer the question, "Yes" or
"No," I think the committee woidd be glad to get the answer.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, it is evident that the committee has had access
to far more record information than I have had.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss, do you have to have records in order to know
whether or not you gave a car away, the only car you ever gave aAvay
in vour life?
Mr. Hiss. No; Mr. Nixon, I liave testified, and I repeat my testi-
mony, that my best recollection — and to have an exact recollection of
trivial housekeeping details of 1-i years ago, when I was a very busy
man, doing more important things than these matters you are asking
me to testify to about this morning, and I have been a relatively busy
man since, it does not seem to me, being as objective as I can about it,
that it is unusual for a man to preface his statements about the details
by which he gave the use of a car. under the circumstances I have de-
scribed, to a man who meant nothing in particular to him by the words
"to the best of my recollection."
Now, I do think that the committee has had access to more records.
It has had a fuller statf than I.
In reading over the record over the week end, I noticed one of your
questions to me, after I had been testifying to the best of my recollec-
tion, that I lived on Twenty-ninth Street, and at one point you said,
"NoAv, this apartment was on Twcr.ty-eighth Street," and I, in my ig-
norance, corrected you, and said, "No, Twenty-ninth Street," and you
said, "Oh, no. Twenty-eighth Street."
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss, there is not going to be any question about the
committee raising a question as to wliether you said Twenty-eighth or
Twenty-ninth. That is something that any person could forget. But
I do not think
Mr. Hiss. But I think you knew, Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. But I do not think — I have not raised the point this
morning, and do not intend to.
Mr. Hiss. No; but I say I think you knew it was Twenty-eighth
Street -svhen you asked me. I think you already had access to records
that I had not had time to have access to in order to refresh my recol-
lection.
Mr. Nixon. Certainly.
Mr. Hiss. That is all on that.
Mr. Nixon. My point on the car is, is your testimony now that you
gave Crosley a car, or is it that you did not give him a car ?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, mj' testimony, I believe from the beginning,
based upon the best recollection I have, is that I gave Crosley the use
of the car, as I gave him the use of the apartment.
Now, Avhethei" I transferred title to him in a legal, formal sense,
vrhether he returned the car to me in connection with my upbraiding
liim for not having repaid vai'ious small loans, ard the loar.s stick in
my memory as of more significance than the rental of the lM)nse itself.
because tliat rental did not involve anything that I was going to get
1104 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
from any other source in any event, a couple of months left over, a
couple of months in the summertime, for an apartment in Washing-
ion — that was not a very great financial asset in those days.
Mr. Nixon. Well, now, is your testimony this morning then that
you did not give Crosley the car, that you gave him the use of the
€ar?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, I have testified, and I repeat it, that my best
recollection is that I gave Crosley the use of the car. Wliether I gave
him the car outright, whether the car came back, I don't know.
Mr. Nixon. You do not know whether you had the possession of
this car after Crosley left you ?
Mr. Hiss. That, I am afraid, I cannot recall. I do recall having
a Plymouth and a Ford at the same time for some months, not just a
few days. I do recall the Ford sitting around because it was not being
used, the tires going down because it was just sitting on the street.
Mr. Nixon. In fact, you have testified that that is the reason you
gave Crosley the car, because you did have the two cars.
Mr. Hiss. I testified that that was the reason, I believe, the car was
of no financial consideration to me, Mr. Nixon, during the period we
are talking about.
Mr. Nixon. Yes, Mr. Hiss. You will recall I had just read the
testimony where you said "I gave Crosley the car because I had a new
one."
Mr. Hiss. That is my best recollection.
Mr. NixoN. In other words, this transaction in which you gave this
car to Crosley occurred after you got your new car, is that correct ?
Mr. Hiss. That is my recollection, Mr. Nixon. Whether my recol-
lection is accurate or not, I frankly do not know without consulting
records which are not available to me.
Mr. Nixon. Now, is your testimony then that you did give Crosley
the use of the car ?
Mr. Hiss. That is my testimony, Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. On that point you are sure ?
Mr. Hiss. As sure as I can be of any of these details of 14 years ago,
Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss
Mr. Hiss. Have you ever had occasion to have people ask you con-
tinuously and over and over again what you did on the night of June
5, 1934 or 1935 ? It is a novel experience to me, Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixojf. Mr, Hiss, I will answer the question, I will tell you
this : That if I had given anybody the use of a car for a period of 2
months, I would remember,
Mr, Hiss. Well, I have testified to you that I do recall that,
Mr, NixoN, All right. Now, your testimony is that you did give
Crosley the car for a period of 2 months. When did that occur ?
Mr, Hiss, My best recollection is that it coincided with the sublease.
I am not positive that it occurred then, rather than in the fall or some
other time.
Mr. Nixon. And you do not know whether it occurred at the time
of the sublease or in connection with that transaction ?
Mr, Hiss, My recollection is that it occurred because it is fixed in my
memory in a rather vague way as connected with the lease. Whether
it preceded or followed or was sinudtaneous, I am afraid I am not able
to testify with exactness.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1105
Mr. Striplixg. Mr. Chairman-
Mr. Nixox. Just a moment. Mr. Hiss, it is not likely that you
AYOuld have given the car to Crosley after he failed to pay the rent,
is it I
]Mr. Hiss. I do not recall the details of when I concluded he was a
fourfl usher.
Mr. Nixox. Well, now, you have testified that he went
^Ir. Hiss. It was sometime — not after this.
Mr. Nixox. Your testimony was that you had seen Mr. Crosley after
he failed to pay the rent.
Mr. Hiss. Yes; I feel quite confident I saw him some tune after
the sublease transaction. .
^Ir. Nixox. Now, do I understand you to say that you might have
loaned Crosley a car for a couple of months after he failed to pay
the rent \
^Ir. Hiss. I might have, if I had considered that his reasons for
not paying were as plausible as his reasons had been for not paying-
back small loans, because the rent was not a major consideration in my
mind. Of that I feel quite confident.
Mr. Nixox^. When were tlie small loans made?
Mr. Hiss. Again. Mr. Nixon, I am testifying from the best of my
recollection, which I have certainly in the course of the last few days
done my very best to go over and over again. I think I loaned Crosley
a total, in small amounts, of $25 or $oO. Whether they were made
prior to the sublease, some of them after the sublease, I just frankly do
not recall with exactness. But at some stage I reached the conclusion
that this had better be terminated, that I was being used, that my
kindness was being abused.
Mr. Nixox. And your testimony then is that the car — that you are
not sure that the car was tied in to the rental transaction; you
think it might not have been.
Mr. Hiss. It could have been tied in toward the end, it could have
been tied in toward the beginning. My best recollection is that there
is a connection between the two transactions.
Mr. Nixox. Could it have taken place several months after the
rental transaction?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, it could have.
Mr. Nixox. You mean several months after he had refused to pay
the lent ?
Mr. Hiss. After he failed to pay the rent.
Mr. Nixox. Well, didn't you ask him for the rent?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, I don't recall at any time his ever refusing,
ever saying, "I just am not going to pay." Quite the contrary, he was
always going to pay at some time.
Mr. Nixox. How long after he moved out of his apartment did you
decide he was a dead beat?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, I am not able to testify with exactness on
that.
Mr. Nixox. But you think it is possible that you loaned him a car
or gave him a car after he failed to pay the rent?
Mr. Hiss. I may very well have given him the use of the car even
though he had not paid the rent at that particular time.
80408—48 39
1106 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. And your testimony is that this man was simply a
casual acquaintance.
Mr. Hiss. This man was an acquaintance. Under the circumstances
this man was an acquaintance, under the circumstances to which I
have testified.
Mr. Nixon. You said he was not a guest in your home. You objected
when Mr. Stripling used that phrase.
Mr. Hiss. That is correct.
Mr. NixoN. You objected when there was any suggestion that Mr.
Crosley was a friend of yours, and you are now testifying that it is
possible that you gave him a car after he failed to pay the rent.
Mr. Hiss. Yes, Mr. Nixon.
Mr. NixoN. All right.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Chairman, I think we can resolve this matter of
a car by a very simple question, and I want to say, first of all, that it
is certainly inconceivable, Mr. Hiss, that you would not know some of
the details of this automobile in the manner in which you have de-
scribed it. You have described it as a car that was pin-chased about
the time of your marriage, that you had a sentimental value connected
with it, that, I say, is understandable. You say that it had been
around for a considerable period of time, and you no longer had a
need for it because you had another autouiobile, and so you either
sold or gave or loaned the automobile to the man that you identify as
Mr. Crosley. ,
Now, that is a correct summation, I believe, of your ])osition up to
now.
Mr. Hiss. It sounds to me quite correct.
Mr. MuNDT. And I want to ask you this question, and on tliis one,
Mr. Hiss, you will not have to consult the records, and I certainly
hope that you will not have to use the ])hrase "to the best of my recol-
lection," which you have used over 75 times thus far ijefore this com-
mittee. This one you should be able to say yes or no lo. Did you
ever dispose of that 1921) automobile to anybody else in any way be-
sides to Mr. George Crosley?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Mundt, I would hate to disa])point yon in any ex-
pectation.
Mr. Mundt. You have already done that, but answer the question.
Mr. Hiss. I am not able, without consulting the recoi'ds, to testify
with exactness or finality as to the way in which I ultimately com-
pletely disposed of my interest in that automobile.
Mr. Mundt. You have no memory at all of having disposed of
the car in any otlier way except by this series of three possibilities by
which you conveyed it to Mr. Crosley ? Would you like to have this
committee believe, Mr. Hiss, actually believe, that you cannot remem-
ber how you finally dis]:)Osed of an automobile that had such a senti-
mental attachment to you, and which meant something to you?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Mundt, I have already testified that liiy recollec-
tion is that I let Crosley have the use of it ; I may have let him have
complete disposition. He may be the person Avho disposed of it.
Mr. MrNDT. Yes ; just a moment ; may I interrupt you ? As a matter
of fact, whether you gave it to him or loaned it to him or made it
part of the — a material part of the lease — unles<^ you had let him
make final dispositi(m of it, you certainly would know what you had
done with the car after that.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1107
]Mr. Hiss. If the car came back to me, if he returned the car to me,
and I hiter disposed of it
Mr. MuNDT. Yon would know of it.
Mr. Hiss. I do not have a recollection of what I did.
Mr. I^IuNDT. But you would have a recollection of it, of having it
back.
Mr. Hiss. I would like to have an opportunity to consult the records,,
and I have been attempting to consult the records, and they are not-
available to me, Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Mundt. It is not necessary for anybody in this room to consult
a record as to what he did with an automobile that he did not dispose^"
of unless it happened to be an automobile dealer. Individual Gov-
ernment clerks, Mr. Hiss, do not have so many automobiles that they
are giving them away, and loaning them, or disposing of them with no
recollection, and certainly not one w^ith a sentimental value like this
1021) Ford had for you and Mrs. Hiss.
• jNIr. Hiss. Mr. Mundt, it may not be pertinent for the record, but I
did not consider myself simply a Government clerk at the time. I
don't know whether that is relevant or not.
Mr. Mundt. JNIaybe I misspoke.
The Chairman. I think Mr. Hiss is correct there.
Mr. Mundt. But you did testify that you were not a man of means'^
with a whole fleet of automobiles.
Mr. Hiss. That is certainly correct.
Mr. Mundt. So the record shows, then, to the best of your recollec-
tion, you do not recall making any other disposition of that car finally
except this transfer to Mr. Chambers or Mr. Crosley.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Mundt, we have been dealing in off-the-cuff recollec-
tions so long the importance which this committee is now evidently
attaching to these details' is such that I think I should recall with suclx
aids to memory as I possibly can take.
Mr. Mundt. But you need no aids to your memory on a matter like
that automobile. On your leases I can understand, and your address
I can understand. From the standpoint of disposing of an auto-
mobile of that type you certainly would stretch the credulity of this
committee if you would have us believe that you have no memory ^at
all of what happened to this automobile.
Mr. Hiss. I am not an expert on the credulity of this committee.
The Chairman. Mr. Vail.
Mr. Vail. Mr. Hiss, as a lawyer, don't you think it is a rather
peculiar procedure for a tenant who is signatory to a written lease to-
sublease an apartment containing valuable furniture to a compara-
tive stranger?
Mr. Hiss. IVIr. Vail, it so happens that I did exactly that same thing
3 or 4 years before. I sublet, without any formal arrangement, a
house I then had as the tenant in Georgetown on Thirtieth Street to
a man who was then a casual acquaintance in Washing-ton.
I had his name recalled to me this winter through other circum-
stances. I have asked him or had him asked whether his recollection
of that ti-ansaction of the summer of 1930, I think it was, is the same
as mine, that it was done at the cost to me of my lease, that it was done
informally and without writing, and he said to the best of his recol-
lection it was done exactly the same way then.
1108 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Last summer and this summer, the two places that I have taken for
the summer, I have also taken without a formal lease from the owners
of the premises, simply an informal understanding.
Now, to me, Mr. Vail, it is not an unusual procedure, because I have
done it on a number of occasions. It may be unusual to other people ;
it has not seemed so to me.
Mr. Vail. It would not, however, be a recommendation to a client
on your part, as an attorney, would it ?
Mr. Hiss. No ; if I were thinking of protecting a client's interests,
who was then handling property of sufficient value to consult an attor-
ney, I would advise him to do it with more written records of the trans-
action. These, in all of the occasions that I have mentioned, the sums
were not very large either from my point of view or from the point of
view of the person with whom I was dealing. I have never myself
attempted to write out leases, although I am a lawyer. When I came
to sell my house in Georgetown, where the sums were greater, I did not
attempt to handle the written papers personally. I turned that over
to counsel, to the title company.
Mr. Vail. But on this occasion, Mr. Hiss, you went a step further
and took a further risk. You gave to this subtenant the use of an auto-
mobile. You owned at the time two cars. Were both of those cars
covered by liability insurance?
Mr. Hiss. My recollection is that from the time I lived in INIassa-
chusetts I have had liability insurance. I think in Massachusetts it is
obligatory, and I believe that I have had liability insurance.
Mr. Vail. Were the cars registered in ISIassachusetts, both cars?
Mr. Hiss. No; because I had only the Ford when I was living in
Massachusetts.
Mr. Vail. But you believe that the Ford car at the time that you
loaned it to Mr. Chambers was covered by insurance.
Mr. Hiss. I am sorry, I do not recall really.
Mr. Vail. Well, as a lawyer, would you not say that it was a highly
important thing that a car that was registered in your name be covered,
if operated by a comparative stranger, against liability?
Mr. Hiss. I think that is a very good point, Mr. Vail, speaking in
terms of hindsight. It did not occur to me at the time.
Mr. Vail. You are a lawyer, Mr. Hiss?
Mr. Hiss. I am a lawyer, Mr. Vail.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Now, Mr. Hiss, I want to know if we can agree on
something here. It was certainly in the spring or summer of 1935
that Mr. Crosley and his family occupied or sublet the apartment on
Twenty-eighth Street.
Mr. Hiss. That is correct.
Mr. Stripling. Is that correct? It could not have been the fol-
lowing year ?
Mr. Hiss. Not so far as I can possibly recall.
Mr. Stripling. It could not have been in the fall of 1935 ?
Mr. Hiss. Not so far as I can recall.
Mr. Stripling. All right.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1109
Now, Mr. Chairman, I want to read from the testimony of Martha
Pope, who was a maid in the home of Mr. Hiss during this period.
Her testimony was taken yesterday, and I quote from the testimony :
When Mr. Hiss was living at the apartment on Twenty-eighth Street, what
kind of an automobile did he haveV
Mrs. Pope. A roadster.
Mr. Stripling. What kind of a ear was it?
Mrs. Pope. It was witli a back, you know, little coupe, with the back seat like —
rumble seat.
Mr. Stripling. A Ford?
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. A Ford rumble seat. What color was it?
Mrs. Pope. I think it was Idack with one of those tan tops, I think.
Mr. Stripling. Now, when yt)U moved to the F Street house, did he still have
the Ford car?
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Did be still have the Ford car?
Mrs. Pope. That is the only one I remember.
Mr. Stripling. Did he ever have anything else while you worked for him?
Mrs. Pope. No.
Mr. Hiss. May I ask, Mr. Stripling, if you asked Martha Pope the
dates when she worked for me ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes; we did.
Mr. Hiss. Would 3'ou mind giving them also ?
Mr. Stripling. She testified, Mr. Hiss, that she was working for
you at the time you moved from the Twenty-eighth Street apartment
and that when you moved to the P Street address, and, in fact, she
testified that you did not move any furniture.
Now, here is the testimony :
Mr. Stripling. Now, did you work for them at this apartment until they
left?
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Were you there with them until they left the apartment?
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. When you moved, when they left the apartment, they went
over to P Street?
Mrs. Pope. F Street.
Mr. Stripling. And moved into a house; did they not?
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Was that house on a corner?
Mrs. Pope. I do not i-emember the corner house. I do not know whether it
was a corner house or not.
Mr. Stripling. But they did move into this house.
Mrs. Pope. They moved to a P Street house.
Mr. Stripling. And it was already furnished?
Mrs. Pope. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. In this apartment on Twenty-eighth Street, Avhen they moved
out, did they take the furniture?
Mrs. Pope. I do not remember them taking the furniture.
Mr. Stripling. Do you remember their taking any furniture?
Mrs. Pope. I do not remember taking any furniture. All I remember is their
going to this P Street house.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Stripling, you did not quite answer the question I
asked. When did Martha Pope testify that she left my employ?
Mr. Stripling. Well, she testified, Mr. Hiss, that she was in your
employ during the period in question here. I will be glad to inake
her testimony available to you, but we are dealing here now with a
specific period.
1110 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Hiss. But 3^011 do not know her testimony as to when she left my
employ, the actual date; how long after we moved to P Street?
Mr. Stripling. Yes; I will have that looked up. It is right here.
In the meantime, Mr. Chairman, I should like now to refer to the
testimony of Whittaker Chambers, which he gave on August 7 in
jS^ew York City in the Federal Building.
Mr. Nixon. Did they have a car?—
referring to Mr. and Mrs. Alger Hiss.
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; they did. When I first iiuew them they had a car.
Again I am reasonably sure, I am almost certain it was a Ford, and that it was
fi roadster. It was black, and it was very dilapidated. There is no question
about that. I i-emember very clearly that it had hand windshield wipers. I
remember that because I drove it one. rainy day and had to work those wind-
shield wipers by hand.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall any other car?
Mr. Chambers. It seems to me in 1936 probably he got a new Plymouth.
Mv. Nixon. Do you recall its type?
Mr. Chambers. It was a sedan, a two^seated car.
Mr. Mandel. What did he do with the old car?
Mr. Chambers. Communist Party had in Washington a service station : that
IS, the man in charge or owner of this station was a Comnmnist, or it may
have been a car lot. ->
Mr. Nixon. But the owner was a Communist?
Mr. Chambers. The owner was a Communist. I never knew who he was or
-where he was. It was against all the rules of the underground organization
jfor Hiss to do anything with his old car but trade it in, and I think this investi-
gation has proved how right the Communists are in such matters, but Hiss in-
sisted that he wanted that car turned over to the open party so it could be of
use to some poor organizer in the West or somewhere. Much against my better
judgment, and much against Peters' better .iudgment, lie finally got us to permit
him to do this thing. Peters knew where this lot was and he either took Hiss
there or he gave Hiss the address, and Hiss went there, and to the best of my
recollection of his description of that happening, he left the car there and simply
-went away, and the man in charge of the station took care of the rest of it for
liim. I .should think the records of that transfer would be traceable.
Mr. Nixon. Where was that?
Mr. Chambers. In Washington, D. C, I believe; certainly somewhere in the
District.
Now, Mr. Chairman, I have here a certificate of title, a photostatic
copy of a certificate of title. District of Columbia, Director of Vehicles
and Trafllic. It shows that on July 23, 1936, Alger Hiss assigned the
title of this car to the Cherner Motor Co., and I noAV ask that Mr.
Hiss .stej) aside, and that Mr. Russell take the stand.
Mr. Davis. Mr. Chairman, before that happens, may I make a
request of the committee?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Davis. I would like to ask whether Mr. Chambers' testimony,
a transcript of Mr. Chambers' testimony, can be made available to
me at this time, so that as this hearing goes along we will have the
advantage which the committee has of knowing what the entire testi-
mony is.
The Chairman. We will be glad to make it available to you, but not
at this time.
Mr. Davis. You understand the importance of it. This hearing is
apparently going to go on for some time.
Mr. NiioN. Mr. Counsel, I will make the remark at this point that
I think will clear it up, and you, as counsel, will agree.
Mr. Chambers has not had a copy of Mr. Hiss' testimony. In fact,
he has not seen a copy of his own testimony, and as far as this matter
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1111
is concerned, as you can see, where the credibility of witnesses is
concerned, it is important that we question the witness concerning
these matters, so that we can get objective answers to objective ques-
tions, and, Mr. Chairman, I believe, under the circumstances that we
sliould proceed in the usual order.
The CiiAiKMAx. Without objection, so ordered.
]\lr. Russell, would you take the stand, please. Stand and raise your
right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about
to give will be the tiuth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Russell. I do.
TESTIMONY OF LOUIS J. EUSSELL
yiv. Stripling. Mr. Russell, you are an investigator 'for the Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities?
Mr. Russell. I am.
Mr. Striplixg. Mr. Chairman, he has been identified numerous
times for the record, I do not think it is necessary to further identify
him.
The Chairman. Without objection, so ordered.
]Mr. Stripling. Mr. Russell, I hand you a photostatic copy of an
assignment of title, as recorded in the District of Columbia, and ask
you to give the committee details of your investigation regarding this
sale and assignment of title [handing photostatic copy of document
to witness].
Mr. Russell. The space on the back of the document called the
certificate of title of a motor vehicle, as issued by the Director of
Vehicles and Traffic for the District of Columbia, reflects that on July
23, 1936, one Alger Hiss sold to the Cherner Motor Co. of 1781 Florida
Avenue, NW., a motor vehicle.
]Mr. Stripling. JSlr. Russell, is there any evidence that he sold the
motor vehicle, on the face of that?
Mr. Russell. On the face, under the section which reads as follows :
The motor vehicle described on the reverse side of this certificate, and the
undersigned hereby warrants that the title to the said motor vehicle, and certi-
fies that at the time of delivery the same is subject to the following liens or
encumbrances and none other.
Under that, in typewriting, is the word "None." There is no indica-
tion as to the amount of money involved in the transaction.
Mr. Stripling. Now, did you proceed to the Cherner IMotor Co.
with a subpena, and examine their records and subpena all of their
sales records for this date ?
ISIr. Russell. I did.
;Mr. Stripling. Do you have those records with joii ?
Mr. Russell. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Is there any evidence of a sale on that date from the
records that we have obtained ?
Mr. Russell. In the records which we obtained, which were the
only ones available, there is no evidence that a sale or the subsequent
sale of a 1929 Ford roadster was made by the Cherner Motor Co, on
that date.
Mr. Stripling. Now, just a moment. Going back to the assignment
of title, does the photostatic document reflect that the car was sold or
1112 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
assigned on the same date tliat Mr. Hiss turned it in to the Cherner
Motor Co?
Mr. EussELL. Yes; the reassignment of title reflects that on July
23, 1936, which is the same date that the car was turned over to Cher-
ner Motor Co., by Mr. Hiss, that one William Rosen, of 5405 Thirteenth
Street, NW., was the purchaser of the same motor vehicle involved for
the amount — the amount is not given. However, it states, or there is a
statement on this document, that there was a chattel mortgage of $25.
Mr. Stripling. Did you go to the address listed there, 5405 Thir-
teenth Street, NW.?
Mr. Russell. No ; but investigators attached to my division did.
Mr. Stripling. Who were the investigators?
Mr. Russell. Mr. William A. Wheeler and Mr. Benjamin Mandel
and Mrs. Howard also visited that address.
Mr. Stripling. Did any person by the name of William Rosen re-
side at that address during 1936 ?
Mr. Russell. No.
Mr. Stripling. Was there any record of a William Rosen having
resided at that address?
Mr. Russell. No.
Mr. Nixon. Who was the — who resides at that address at the pres-
ent time ?
Mr. Russell. Mrs. Howard w^ould have to mention tliat. I am not
familiar with the persons presently residing there.
Mr. Nixon. You do not have the information as to that ?
Mr. Russell. No ; Mrs. Howard has that.
Mr. Nixon. But what your record shows, I understand. Mr. Russell,
is that this car was transferred by Mr. Hiss on what date ?
Mr. Russell. July 23, 1936.
Mr. Nixon. That is a year after the transfer to Chambers is sup-
posed to have taken place ?
Mr. Russell. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Is that in the handwriting of Mr. Hiss ?
Mr. Russell. According to an identification of certain handwriting
specimens consisting of the known handwriting of Mr. Hiss on the
questioned document which is this assignment of title, the handwriting
experts have testified that the signature appearing on the back of this
document, called assignment of title, was written by Alger Hiss.
Mr. Stripling. Here is the report of the handwriting experts at this
time.
Mr. Nixon. Is it true also that the words "Cherner Motor Co.," had
been written in bv Mr. Hiss, or are in the same handwriting?
Mr. Russell. Whether the handwriting examination shows that, I
do not know. I do not belieA'e that it does.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Stripling, you have information on that' fact ?
Mr. Stripling. We have not made a determination on that point.
I want to ask Mr. Hiss.
Mr. Nixon. I see. Do the files of the Committee on Un-American
Activities or the files which you have consulted disclose any informa-
tion concerning the William Rosen who gave this address?
Mr. Stripling. There are two William Rosens. This committee is
now checking. We find no William Rosen who ever resided at that
address. There are two Rosens. We are checking one in California
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1113
and the other in Detroit. We are not prepared at this time to state
definitely concernino- these two William Rosens.
Could I clear up one point, Mr. Nixon ?
Mr. XixoN. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Now. Mr. Russell, you have the sales slips of the
Cherner Motor Co. for the date on which this car was sold to William
Rosen.
^Ir. RussEi.L. I have.
31r. Stripling. Do you have the slips for the day before?
Mr. Russell. Yes.
]Mr. Stripling. And the following day?
^Ir. Russell. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Would you explain to the committee the numbering
system of those sales slips, and tell them whether or not the sales slips,
as contained there in the files which were subpenaed, reflect that this
car was sold to William Rosen.
Mr. Russell. These sales invoices are numbered in consecutive order.
The last sales invoice for the date July 21, 1936, bore the number 7879.
The first sales invoice for the following day, wdiich was the dav
before the transaction was recorded on the assignment of title, begins
with the number 7880, and ends with the number 7897. There were
no invoices missing on that da}^
On the following day. July 23, 1936, the date of the transaction, the
number was 7898. The last invoice on that date was 7908, and on the
following day, July 24, 1936, the invoices begin with the number 7909,
and end with number 7923.
If you follow the numbers in consecutive order from the last number
of July 21 through July 24, 1936, you will find that there are no sales
invoices missing, which indicates that no sales invoice for the sale of
this automobile to William Rosen was made out by the Cherner Motor
Co. on the day before the sale was recorded on the assignment of title,
on the day that the sale was recorded, on the assignment of title, nor
on the day following the assignment of title, which was July 21, 1936.
Mr. Stripling. Now, JNIr. Chairman, I think this point should be an
occasion for Mr. Nixon, who is chairman of a subcommittee, to state
clearly for the record the investigation to this point regarding the
Cherner Motor Co.
Yesterday Mr. Cherner, who is head of the motor company, was
before the committee, as well as the treasurer, and the vice president
in charge of used cars, I believe — three ofhcials of the Cherner Motor
Co. who were before the committee. There is no evidence at this time
that any of these three officials or that the Cherner Motor Co. might
have been a party to any such transaction. It is very possible that a
jjerson who was Avith the Cherner Motor Co. at that time is involved.
We expect to have something on that later in the day.
Mr. NixoN. Mr. Chairman, the subcommittee yesterday heard Mr.
Cherner, of the Cherner Motor Co., and Mr. Mensh, who was the sales
manager of the Cherner Motor Co., at the time this transaction
occurred.
Both witnesses testified at length. Their testimony will, of course,
be made public, and I want to say for the record that, as far as both
of them were concerned, they had no recollection whatever of this
particular transaction, and that, as far as the investigation of the sub-
1114 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
committee is concerned, there is no implication at all that they were
involved in the transaction from the basis of their testimony.
I want that to be made absolutely clear, because the record of their
testimony, which will be made public, will bear out what I have just
said.
Do I understand, first of all, that you do have the records of the
Cherner Motor Co. for the day of that particular transaction?
Mr. Russell, Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. And you find nothing in those records at all bearing
on this transaction?
Mr. Russell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. You have searched the records carefully to see whether
possibly the invoice might have been misplaced ?
Mr. Russell. Yes, sir. The invoices are numbered in consecutive
order; and if you take the day before the transaction occurred, and
find that number and trace that through, and the following day, and
then take the first invoice for the day after the transaction, you will
find that those numbers are in consecutive order, so there could not
be a sales invoice for that day missing.
Mr. Nixon. I see. And as far as Mr. William Rosen is concerned,
the investigations of your staff have shown that the address that he
gave was an address which the occupants of the home at that time deny
was his at that time ?
Mr. Russell. Yes, sir; that is true.
Mr. Nixon, That is all I have at this time.
Mr. Stripling. I ask that Mr. Hiss be recalled.
The Chairman. Mr. Hebert.
Mr. Hebert. I just want to ask one clarifying question.
In other words, this transfer of title which the Cherner Motor Co.
supposedly gave to the man Rosen does not appear officially at all in
their files or in their invoices?
Mr. Russell. That is right.
Mr. Hebert. Am I to understand also, then, that if such a transac-
tion did take place as reflected by this document from which you read,
that it was a cover-up sale ?
Mr, Stripling. No.
Mr. Hebert. In other words, what I am trying to clarify, Mr. Strip-
ling, is what connection has the fact — what does it establish, that these
invoices are consecutively numbered, and then, you have a missing
invoice of a sale which is supposed to have taken place, and that one
missing invoice relates to the car sold.
Mr. Stripling. There is not a missing invoice.
Mr. Hebert. There is not a missing invoice?
Mr. Russell. No.
Mr. Stripling. The point we are making is that INIr. Hiss, according-
to this document, delivered the Ford automobile to the Cherner Motor
Co. on July 23, 19P,f). On that same date this car was sold or trans-
ferred to one William Rosen, but there is no evidence in the sales
records of this particular transaction.
]Mr. Hebert. It was an unusual case.
Mr. Stripling. I believe that the officials — one of the officials of
the Cherner Motor Co. — testified yesterday that it was a very unusual
case.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1115
Mr. Hebert. That is what I wiinted to know.
The Cjiairmax. Mv. McDowell.
INIr. McDowell. No questions.
The CiTATRMAN. All right, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stru'lixg. All right, 3Ir. Hiss.
TESTIMONY OF ALGER HISS— Resumed
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. ISlr. Hiss-, I show you this photostatic copy of assign-
ment of title, title No. 245()47, foi- a Ford used, model A, 11)20 roadster,
and the numbers are A-21888110-19-33 — that was the date on wdiich
it was originally registered in the District of Columbia. The tag, I
believe, was 245647, in the name of Alger Hiss, 3411 O Street NW.,
Washington. D. C.
NoAY, iNIr. Hiss, is this your signature which appears on the reverse
side of this assignment of title ? [Showing witness photostatic copy.]
jSIr. Hiss. Mr. Stripling, it certainh^ looks like my signature to me.
Do you have the original document'^
Mr. Stripling. No ; I do not.
Mr. Hiss. This is a photostat. I would prefer to have the original.
Do you have the original ?
Mr. Stripling. The original document, INIv. Chairman, cannot be-
removed from the Department of Motor Vehicles. They keep it im
their possession.
i\Ir. Hiss. They have it in their possession now ?
jMr. Stripling. I assume they do.
Mr. Davis. Could it be subpenaed?
Mr. Stripling. It might be possible to subpfena it here if they bring'
it up themselves.
The Chairman. Well, Mr. Hiss, can't you tell from the photostat
what this signature is? Whether it is your signature or not?
Mr. Hiss. It looks like my signature to me, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Well, if that were the original, would it look any
more like your signature? [Laughter.]
So, it is just reasonable to believe that you can tell from that whether
or not it is your signature.
Mr. Hiss. I think if I saw the original document I would be able
to see whether this photostat is an exact reproduction of the original
document. I would just rather deal with originals than with copies.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Stripling, may I interrupt ? In other words, in
order to give ]Mr. Hiss every opportunity — if we recall what he did with
the photograph, that he did not recognize Mr. Chambers for some time,
and he finally recognized him. I suggest that the committee issue a
pubpena cluces tecum to the motor-vehicle people and let them come
in here with the original, and it will be just a matter of hours, and
he will have to admit it is his signature.
Mr. Hiss. The reason I asked was that we had not been able ta
get access to the original. I just wondered wdiat had happened to it.
The Chairman. We will try, and Mr. Stripling, you try at noontime,
if we ever reach noontime. '
Mr. Stripling. I think we can reach it this way. Do you recall
ever signing the assignment, Mr. Hiss ?
Mr. Hiss. I do not at the moment recall signing this.
1116 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Is this your handwriting? There is written here,
"Cherner Motor Co., 1781 Florida Avenue NW." Did you write
that?
]Mr. Hiss. I could not be sure from the outline of the letters in this
photostatic copy. That also looks not unlike my own handwriting.
Mr. MuNDT. Could you be sure if you saw the original document ?
Mr. Hiss. I could be surer. [Laughter.]
Mr. Stripling. Now, Mr. Hiss and jMr. Chairman, yesterday the
committee subpenaed before it W. Marvin Smith, who was the notary
public who notarized the signature of Mr. Hiss. Mr. Smith is an
jittorney in the Department of Justice in the Solicitor General's office.
He has been employed there for 35 years. He testified that he knew
Mr. Hiss; he does not recall notarizing this particular document, but
he did testify that this was his signature.
Mr. Hiss. 1 know Mr. Marvin Smith.
The Chairbian. You know who ?
Mr. Hiss. I say I know Mr. Marvin Smith.
]\Ir. Stripling. The man who notarized this.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss, you knew Mr. Smith, the notary, who signed
this in 1936, did you not ?
Mr. Hiss. I did.
]\Ir. Nixon. It is not likely that he would have notarized your sig-
nature unless you would have been there ?
Mr. Hiss. It certainly would not.
Mr. Nixon. On the basis — in other words, you would not want to
say now that you question the fact that Mr. Smith might have violated
his oath as a notary public in notarizing a forged signature ?
Mr. Hiss. Definitely not.
jVIr. Nixon. Then, as far as you are concerned, this is your signature ?
Mr. Hiss. As far as I am concerned, with the evidence that has been
shown to me, it is.
Mr. Nixon. All right; you are willing to testify now then that since
Mr. Smith did notarize your signature as of that time, that it is your
signature?
Mr. Hiss. On the basis of the assumptions vou state, the answer
is "Yes."
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDowell. I would like to say this, Mr. Chairman. While Mr.
Hiss is on the witness stand I would like to make the following com-
ment : That I have been present every time that Mr. Hiss has appeared
before this committee and one oth-er time, and in view of the many
liigh and important positions he has held in our Federal Government,
I have treated him with every possible courtesy. However, he testi-
fied some time ago this morning that there was a rather heavy infer-
ence that the Committee on Un-American Activities was stalling in
giving him the testimony, the copy of the testimony that was given to
him.
I think the record will show that it was constantly through his ef-
forts. I recall his efforts to get the testimony. I was a member of
the subcommittee which went to New York, and I believe Mr. Hiss
came to the Commodore Hotel at my invitation, and I presided there,
and I believe he was treated with all of the propriety which a witness
should receive at the hearing.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 111/
I recall w^ took along Mr. Banister, the stenographer, who had
gotten that far onh' lialf of the testimony up, and we delivered the
testimon}^ to Mr. Hiss in New York.
I would like to say, Mr. Hiss, that you got your testimony many,,
many hours before I got mine, and the heat and pressure that you were
putting on the committee for the purpose of getting the testimony-
was nothing at all to the heat and pressure that I was putting on thein^
and I want to say that there was no slowing down in any way or in
an}' fashion in getting that testimony to you. I think that should be;
made a part of the record.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. McDowell, I am perfectly prepared to accept that
as an accurate statement. All that I was saying was that I had dif-
ficulty and delays in getting the testimony. I have no reason to think
that those difficulties and delays were not explainable on the basis you
so stated.
INIr. Hebert. ]Mr. Hiss, now that your memory has been refreshed
by the development of the last few minutes, do you recall the trans-
action whereby you disposed of that Ford that you could not remember
this morning ?
Mr. Hiss. No; I have no present recollection of the disposition of
the Ford, Mr. Hebert.
Mr. Hp:bert. In view of the refreshing of your memory that has
been presented here this morning ?
Mr. Hiss. In view of that, and in view of all the other developments^
Mr. Hebert. You are a remarkable and agile 3'oung man, Mr. Hiss^
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, before the committee recesses, I
failed to put into the record a letter here which we received from
Gerald P. Nye, regarding George Crosley.
The letter is addressed to ]\Ir. Benjamin Mandel, director of re-
search for the committee :
Dear Me. Mandel: Receipt is acknowledged of your letter of August IS in-
quiring of any recollection that might be mine of a writer named George Crosley
who allegedly had been engaged in writing articles in connection with the
munitions investigations in 1934 and 1935 conducted by a Senate committee of
which I was chairman. The name of Crosley does not enter my recollection
in any way, shape, or manner.
Very truly yours,
The letter is dated August 19, 1948.
The Chairman. Are there any more questions from any members?
The Chair would like to announce that we will recess until 2:30
this afternoon, and there will be an executive session downstairs in
the committee room at 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 1:05 p. m., the committee recessed, to reconvene
at 2 : 30 p. m. this day.)
afternoon session
The Chairman. The hearing will come to order.
The record will show that those present are Mr. Mundt, Mv. Mc-
Dowell, Mr. Nixon, Mr. Hebert, and Mr. Thomas. A quorum is-
present.
1118 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling, the first witness.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Alger Hiss.
The Chairman. Mr. Hiss, you, of course understand that 3'Ou are
still testifying under the oath you took this morning.
Mr. Hiss. I do.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Stripling.
TESTIMONY OF ALGER HISS— Resumed
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I would like at this time to introduce
into the record certificate of examination and inspection made by the
Department of Vehicles and Traffic, District of Columbia, of the Ford
car in question.
This certificate, Mr. Chairman, was made by the Cherner INIotor Co.
to the Department of Vehicles and Traffic of the District of Columbia.
It says :
This certifies that this day the physical examiuation of used motor vehicle
trade nvimber Ford 1929, body roadster, discloses the following engine number,
2188811, and that these have been checked against information appearing on
■certificate of title issued by District of Columbia under 245647.
It is further certified that items of this motor vehicle as shown below have
heen mechanically inspected and tested and the "O. K." inserted opposite each
item. It is noted that they comply with District of Columbia ti'affic i-egulations
appearing on the first side and that the mechanical condition of this motor
vehicle is such as to permit its operation in compliance with general safety.
The items are then listed :
Brakes, headlight, horn, rear view mirror, windshield wiper, wind-
shield glass. All are marked "O. K." The date is July 23, 1936.
It says :
The above engine and serial numbers were obtained by physical examination.
It is signed, stamped in, "Cherner Motor Co., by Edward S. Bar-
ton"— B-a-r-t-o-n.
"The above engine and serial numbers were checked against the
title by Cherner Motor Co." — stamped in — and then "Harry L. Cohen.
"Items of motor vehicle mechanically inspected, Cherner Motor
Co." — stamped in, and then — "Edward S. Barton."
The Chairman. The record will show at this point that Mr. Vail
is present.
Mr. Stripling. Now, Mr. Hiss, do you know an individual in Wash-
ington by the name of Bialek, B-i-a-1-e-k ?
Mr. Hiss. B-i-a-1-e-k?
Mr. Stripling. B-i-a-1-e-k.
Mr. Hiss. The name means nothing to me, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Do you recall anything of the details concerning
the transfer or sale of this car to the Cherner Motor Co. ?
Mr. Hiss. As I testified before lunch, Mr. Stripling, I do not have
any present recollection of the transfer of title, a photostat of the
certificate of which you showed me before lunch.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Nixon, do you have a question? Go right
ahead.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss, just to summarize this car transaction, what is
your testimony now as to what you did with the car ?
Mr. Hiss. Beginning with what date, what stage in the transaction ?
Mr. Nixon. Beginning with the stage when you gave the car to
3Ir. Crosley.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1119
Mr. Hiss. My best recollection, Mr. Nixon, as I believe I have testi-
fied previously on several occasions, is that I made the car available
to Ciosley. Whether I gave it to him outright, whether it came back
to me from him, whether at some later stage he or someone else came
to me and said "You disposed of a car, there remains a technical trans-
action to be completed," I have no present recollection.
Mr. Nixox. As I understand your answer then, you are sure that
you gave the car to Crosley either for a loan or by transfer.
Mr. Hiss. I am. That is my best present recollection.
jSlr. XixoN. On that point. But you do not remember whether or
not Mr. Crosley gave the car back to you and whether or not you
transferred it later to the Cherner Motor Co.?
Mr. Hiss. No ; I do not.
Mr. NixoN. You don't recall that incident at all?
Mr. Hiss. No ; I do not.
Mr. Nixox. You don't deny, however, that the notarization of your
signature on the transfer to Cherner Motor Co. in July of 1936 is your
signature ?
Mr. Hiss. I certainly do not.
Mr. Nixox. I see. But you don't recall that transaction?
Mr. Hiss. I do not recall it. I would want to talk to INIr. Marvin
Smith to see what his recollection is. I have no recollection.
Mr. Nixox. The committee took the testimony of Mr. Smith, who
testified that he did notarize your signature, that he knew you, and
that had you not come before him for notarizing the signature, he
would not have notarized the signature,
Mr. Hiss. I would have had the same impression, because I know
Mr. Smith.
Mr, Nixox. Now, then, there is one point on which the testimonj^
is clear. You have testified that you did give a car to Crosley. but
now you say it might have been a loan, that it might not have been
simply an outright transfer or gift. Is that correct?
i\Ir. Hiss. I say it may have bounced back or it may have been a
loan. That is right.
Mr. Nixox. All right. The possibilities are that 3^ou have trans-
ferred to him outright and it came back to you or that you may sim-
ply have loaned it to him.
Mr. Hiss. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. That is right. Now, when did that transaction occur?
Mr. Hiss. The transaction of making the car available to Crosley?
Mr. Nixox. That is correct, whether by loan or by gift.
Mr. Hiss. Again, Mr. Nixon, I think I have testified to this before.
My best recollection is that that was connected with the subleasing
transaction. Whether it was simultaneous, whether it preceded it,
or whether it followed it I am not clear in my own recollection at the
present time.
Mr. Nixox. Your testimony is that you could have given him the
car before, during, or after the subleasing transaction?
Mr. Hiss. To the best of ray recollection I would not be able to be
sure.
Mr. Nixox. At the time 3^011 gave him the car did you have your
new car ?
]\Ir. Hiss. Again my recollection, Mr. Nixon, is that I had a Plym-
outh and the Ford at the same time. Of that I feel very confident.
1120 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. Of that you are very confident ?
Mr. Hiss. Whether I had them both at the time of the transaction
with Crosley I cannot at this late date be absohitely certain.
Mr. Nixon. Well
Mr. Hiss. My impression is I did and that was one of the reasons
why I was prepared voluntarily to make the Ford car available to
him.
Mr. Nixon. In any event, Crosley had the car according to your
recollection for a i^eriod of say 2 months ?
Mr. Hiss. A period of time, that is correct.
Mr, Nixon. If he had the car for 2 months, it would seem quite
obvious that you must have had another car at that time.
Mr. Hiss. It may or may not be obvious.
Mr. Nixon. It may or may not be
Mr. Hiss. It may or may not be obvious.
Mr. Nixon. Do I understand you to sa}^ that you might have loaned
the car to Crosley for 2 months and you didn't have a car during that
period?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, if during that particular period I for some
reason had no need of a car, either because someone had loaned me
a car which was better than that one or because I was on a vacation
when the car was of no use to me, there are many possibilities. I
don't feel I have exhausted all the possibilities.
Mr. Nixon. Then you wish to change the testimony that 3'ou gave
on Monday and Tuesday that at the time 5^ou gave the car to Crosley
you had your new car. Is that correct?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, so far as I am aware I am not changing any
testimony. I am doing my best to am])lify my testimony, to continue
to answer questions asked b}^ this committee.
Mr. Nixon. So far as you are concerned you are not prepared to
say whether or not you had a new car at the time 3'ou gave this car
to Crosley?
Mr. Hiss. My recollection is there was a connection between the new
car and the transaction with Crosley.
Mr. Nixon. Now, Mr. Stripling, will you put in evidence at this
time the registration for the new Plymouth which Mr.
Mr. Stripling. I believe you have that, Mr. Nixon.
( Short pause. )
The Chairman. I suggest you look for that later.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Stripling^
Mr. Stripling. It was read into the record this morning ; as I recall,
it was September 6, 1935.
Mr. Nixon. That was read into the record this morning?
Mr. Stripling. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. September 6, 1935.
Mr. Stripling. That is my recollection.
Mr. Nixon. That is the time when the new Plymouth was registered
in Mr. Hiss" name ?
Mr. Stripling. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. Now, Mr. Hiss, does that refresh your recollection as
to when this transaction with Crosley occurred ?
Mr. Hiss. No, I am afraid it does not.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1121
Mr. Nixon. Your teslimoin- is, then, as I recall, that it is probable
that at the time you gave this car to Crosley it was when you had two
cars available?
Mr. Hiss. That seems probable.
Mr. Nixon. Then it is quite probable, in your opinion, that this
transaction took place after September 6, 1935 ?
Mr. Hiss. Again I am not able to recall in terms of actual present
memory. I have done the best I can to give this committee all the
recollection I have from the very beginning and I will continue to
do so.
Mr. Xixox. When did you last see Mr. Crosley?
Mr. Hiss. Again my best recollection is some time in 1935. Whether
it was the fall or not I am not sure.
Mr. Nixox. How many times after Mr. Crosley's rental agreement
expired on June 2G did you see him?
Mr. Hiss. I can't recall with exactness. I would think not more
than a couple of times — two, three times. But I am not positive. ~
Mr. NixoN. Not more than two or three times ?
Mr. Hiss. I would think.
Mr. Nixon. Did Mr. Crosley ever stay overnight with you on any
of those occasions f
Mr. Hiss. I think I testified when that question was asked me before
that he may have, that I have some recollection either before or
after the sublease arrangement of Mr. Crosley saying he had been
unable to get a reservation, had come into town late or something,
but I frankly don't recall his staying overnight except the 2 or 3
days prior to his moving into the apartment.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss, the documentary evidence which yon your-
self suggested the committee should introduce and which we have
introduced shows clearly that you had possession of this car for possibly
12 months and probably for at least 9 months after Mr. Crosley received
possession of it. You don't recall having had the car during that
period ?
Mr. Hiss. Excuse me, Mr. Nixon. I am not confident that the docu-
mentary evidence at the committee's disposal and at my disposal does
demonstrate conclusively that I had possession of the car during that
period.
Mr. Nixon. Do you deny that you executed on July — in July 1936^
this transfer of the car. the title, to Cherner Motor Co.?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, I hadn't finished what I was saying. Shall
I finish or answer that ?
Mr. Nixon. Answer that question and then proceed on the other^
if you will.
Mr. Hiss. Proceeding in inverse order, the specific question you last
asked, I do not deny and have no reason to deny that I executed the
document, a photostat of which was shown to me this morning.
What I was saying was that it does not to my mind conclusively
demonstrate that in between that date and the time we were talking-
about in the summer of '35 that I had possession of the car. It is
conceivable to me that I did not have possession of the car during
that time, that if I was asked to complete a mere formal legal tech-
nicality at a later date, I did so, and I am trying to look into that ques-
tion at the present time. That is one of the reasons 1 want to talk to
80408—48 40
1122 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Marvin Smitli and anybody else who could possibly have any
information.
Mr, Nixon. Yon mean the person that had possession of the car at
that time might have asked you to complete this transaction ?
Mr. Hiss. That is quite possible, and someone may have come into
my office in the Department of Justice — Mr. Marvin Smith was in the
same office where I worked in the Department of Justice — and may
have said to me, "You disposed of a car some time ago. There is a
technical legal step that needs to be taken. Would you simply sign a
statement?" That I have no present recollection of, Mr. Nixon, but
1 am doing my best to recall to get the evidence.
Mr. Nixon. Did Mr. Crosley come in there and ask you to do that?
Mr. Hiss. I have no recollection of seeing Mr. Crosley after 19o5.
Mr. Nixon. He is the man you gave the car to ?
Mr. Hiss. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. He is the man that would have had possession ?
Mr. Hiss. That doesn't necessarily follow. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Did you give the car to anybody else?
Mr. Hiss. You are leaving out some possible steps. He may have
given the car to somebody else.
Mr. Nixon. Are you testifying to that?
Mr. Hiss. I am not testifying. I am trying to answer your ques-
tions, Mr. Nixon, which you seem to think are pertinent and important
questions.
Mr. Nixon. They certainly are.
Mr. Hiss. And I am doing my best to be responsive to the questions
and if you don't think the answers to the questions are evidence, I
am afraid that is your fault because you are asking the questions.
Mr. Nixon. Then you think tlien — your testimony is that at least
the title of the car was in your name until July of 1936 ?
Air. Hiss. The evidence that I have seen today certainly looks that
way, Mr. Nixon. You are asking me to speculate and I am doing my
best to comply with your request.
Mr. NixoN. If you executed a transfer of title to the car that wasn't
yours, that would be something quite unusual, wouldn't it, jSlr. Hiss?
Mr. Hiss. Not if I was merely taking care of a formal detail of
transfer.
Mr. Nixon. I asked you if the title was in your name. Obviously
the title was in your name or you wouldn't have had to take care of
this formal execution. Can't you give me a yes or no answer to that
question ?
Mr. Hiss. The record, Mr. Nixon, as I have seen it today would
indicate the title had remained in my name until the date Mr. Stripling
has referred to in 1936.
Mr. Nixon. You don't deny then you did execute this title?
Mr. Hiss. I do not, Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Then the title was in your name at that time.
Mr. Hiss. The evidence would so indicate, Mr. Nixon. [Laughter.]
The Chairman. You will say the evidence would indicate that the
title was in your name?
Mr. Hiss. Yes, Mr. Chairman.
The Ciix\iRMAN. Do you believe that the title was in your name?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Chairman, I have done my best to give you beliefs,
conjectures
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1123
The CiiAiRMAx. There is no question about that.
Mr. Hiss. SpecuUitions, whatever you ask. I am not prepared at
this time to say what I believe about something 14 years ago where
I chm't have positive, definite recollection and where the evidence so
far before us does not, to my mind, make it absolutely clear.
The CiiAiKaiAx. Do you think that that car was in your name?
Mr. Hiss. To the extent that my thoughts are relevant and of
interest to this particular committee, it would look to me as of now —
I am not now testifying as to past recollection — it would look to me
as though, on the record, the car was in my name.
I may have thought I had disposed of it before and may have been
told in '36 that I had not completely disposed of it.
The Chairman. Was the car in your name?
Mr. Hiss. The evidence before this
The Chairman, Never mind the evidence. You know whether the
car was in your name or not. Was the car in your name ?
jNIr. Hiss. I do not know for certain, Mr. Chairman. I am testify-
ing on the basis of the evidence that has been submitted here today.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss, you are an attorney. You realize that under
the law that if the title of the car was in your name, you would have
been liable for damages in the event this man had an accident.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Vail asked me that question this morning. I cer-
tainlj'^ did not realize it. I don't know that I realized it then, Mr.
Nixon.
Mr. NixoN. Would you repeat that answer?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Vail asked me a similar question this morning; I
certainly did not realize it. I am not sure I had it in mind at the time.
Mv. Nixon. It is rather amazing to me that a man who stood ex-
tremel}^ high in his class at Harvard Law School could say that he had
gone through law school and wouldn't know that when the title to a
car was in his own name, that in the event an accident occurred to that
car that he would be liable for damages. You are not testifying to that,
are you?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, I would like to testify right now that as of
the present moment I really do not have a firm opinion as to what the
law would be if someone were driving a car registered in my name
and were guilty of negligence causing the injury of someone else. I
am slightly surprised at your implication that that Avould automatically
make me as the registered owner of the car liable.. Even now at this
minute.
Mr. Nixon. How much, Mr. Hiss
Mr. Hiss. I would like to refer that to counsel.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss, how much did you get from the Cherner
Motor Co. when you transferred this car ?
Mr. Hiss. I have testified that I have no recollection of transferring
the car to the Cherner Motor Co. and I certainly have no recollection
of receiving any payment.
Mr. Nixon. In other words, you are testifying today at least to this
fact : That you had never any recollection of receiving any money for
this car, to whomever you may have transferred it; is that correct?
Mr. Hiss. I have no present recollection of receiving any money
for that car. That is correct.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Nixon, I think he said he wanted to refer that
question to his counsel. I would like to have his counsel answer that
1124 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
question. You are an attorney in this city. Hoay do you advise }'our
clients as to the responsibility for an automobile registered in their
names ?
Mr. Davis. No one has asked that question. If anyone asked the
question, I would say I want to search the law in the District of Colum-
bia, and if I were pressed for an answer I would say that the registered
owner of the car in the District of Columbia was not liable for torts
of the driver of the car unless that driver was acting as his agent.
[Laughter.]
Mr. NixON. Mr. Stripling, this car was transferred to one William
Rosen.
Mr. Stripling. It was sold to one William Rosen, or transferred
from the Cherner Motor Co.
Mr. Nixon. What was the address William Rosen gave ?
Mr. Stripling. 5405 Thirteenth Street, NW.
Mr. Nixon. Who lives there now ?
Mr. Stripling. You mean now or in 1936 ?
Mr. Nixon. Who lives there now and who lived there then ?
Mr. Stripling. A man by the name of Merriam lives there at the-
present time.
Mr. Nixon. Who lived there then ?
Mr. Stoipling. In 1936 ?
Mr. Nixon. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Bialek, B-i-a-1-e-k.
Mr. NixoN. Mr. Bialek says he knows no William Rosen ?
Mr. Stripling. Benjamin Bialek.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Bialek says no William Rosen lived there in -36 '.
Mr. Stripling. Mrs. Bialek said that. Mr. Bialek is ilL
Mr. NixON. How long did the Bialeks live there after '36, do you
know '\
Mr. Stripling. Yes; I think we have that. They moved from there
in 1937.
Mr. Nixon. 1937. Well, now to summarize the situation concerning
the car at this time for the record, it would seem that the facts which
the committee has available through testimony and through docu-
ments are as follows :
Mr. Hiss testified on Monday, the 16th, and on Tuesday, the I7th,
substantially to the following facts: He testified that he had a 1929
Ford roadster and that some time in the spring of 1935 at the same
time that he sublet an apartment to Mr. George Crosley, that he trans-
ferred the car to him. The testimony of Mr. Hiss on that point has
been read so the committee could hear it. The testimony certainly
left every member of the committee convinced of the fact that Mr.
Hiss had conveyed the impression that the transfer was outright, that
he didn't get the car back, that it was not a loan, since he had used the
^A'ords "sold," "get rid of,'' and that he had even discussed the matter
of title when asked about title.
The transfer, according to Mr. Hiss, took place contemporaneously
with the making of the lease with Mr. Crosley. The lease with Mr.
Crosley, it has been established this morning had to occur because of
the rental contracts which Mr. Hiss had — it had to occur between
May 1 and June 26, 1935, because Mr. Hiss' contract for the apartment
in which Mr. Crosley lived expired on June 26, 1935.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1125
Subsequent to Mr. Hiss' testimony concerning the automobile, the
committee investigators went to the De]iartment of Motor Vehicles
and also to the dealer from whom Mr. Hiss had purchased the car,
and as a result of investigation established these facts from the record:
First, established that Mr. Hiss did not get a new Plymouth auto-
mobile, which was the first of the new automobiles that he purchased,
until September of 19o5, which is 5 months approximately after the
tinie tliat he indicated in testimony on Monday and Tuesday that he
had given the car to Crosley. It should also be said that in his testi-
mony on Monday and Tuesday, Mr. Hiss, on three occasions, said that
he gave the car to Crosley at that time because he had a new car and
did not need the other car.
It was also established in checking the records that no transfer of
any type of an automobile was recorded to Mr. Crosley from Mr.
Hiss, either of the "29 Ford or of any other automobile, and it was
established through the records that in July of 1936, 1 year after Mr.
Hiss testified that he had given the car to Crosley and transferred
the car to Crosley, 1 year later, he had transferred the car to the
Cherner Motor Co. Also that the Cherner Motor Co. the same day
had transferred it to one William Rosen who had given an address
which, as the result of the committee's investigation so far, is a false
address.
It was apparent to the committee therefore, laying the testimony of
Mr. Hiss on Monday and Tuesday — and I might say I read from the
record he w^as questioned concerning the car on at least 20 occasions —
it was apparent from the record that Mr. Hiss could not have trans-
ferred the car to Crosley as he said he did in the spring of 1935.
It is apparent that if the transfer did occur it occurred 4 months
after Mr. Crosley must have moved out of the apartment, 3I/2 months
after ■Mr. Crosley must have moved out of the apartment.
It is also clear that the transfer was a loan or that he transferred
the car to Crosley and Crosley transferred it back to him because Mr.
Hiss later had to execute a document in order to transfer the title of
the car to the Cherner Motor Co. in July of 1936.
Now, the question has been raised as to why the issue of the car
is important. The issue of the car is important in this case for the
reason that I stated during the morning session.
The issue before this committee today is whether or not Mr. Whit-
taker Chambers has falsely accused Mr. Hiss of being a member of
the Communist underground during the ])eriod that he knew him from
1934 to 1937. Mr. Hiss came before the committee and based his
denial on two grounds:
First. He denied that he was a Communist or had ever been a Com-
munist, and he denied it categorically and strongly.
Second. He denied that he had ever known a man by the name of
Whittaker Chambers, and when shown a i:)icture of Mr. Chambers, he
said he could not identify him at that time and that he would want
to see the man himself before making an identification.
By reason of that fact Mr. Hiss in effect cast doubts on the credibility
of Mr. Chambers. The committee therefore took the testimony of
Mr. Chambers and the testimony of Mr. Chambers on the car has
been read into the record. We also took the testimony of Mr. Hiss
on the car on INIonday and Tuesday with the results that I have just
indicated.
1126 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
I should like to say again that in this connection Mr. Hiss when he
identified Mr. Crosley, Mr. Chambers as the man he knew as Crosley^
he necessarily did tell the committee that he did not know Crosley as
a Communist and in attempting- to prove to the committee that he
did not know Crosley as a Communist he made these three important
points :
He said : (1) , "Mr. Crosley was a free-lance writer whom I knew at
the Nye committee"; (2), "He was a man that I sublet my apartment
to"; (3), "He was a man that I gave a car to"; and I should add
another: (4), "He certainly was not to my knowledge a Communist."
The committee has been going into all of these points. We have now
gone into the ])oint about the car and it would appear to me. looking
at the record objectivefy, that it is quite apparent that Mr. Hiss could
not have been correct in his testimony on Monday and Tuesday con-
cerning the time that he gave the car and of the type of transaction,
that it was a gift — I mean, that it was an outright transfer rather than
a loan.
It is also quite apparent from the record that if Mr. Hiss did give
Mr. Crosley a car at any time, he gave it to him after September 1936,
1935, when he had both of his cars; — and in giving him the car at that
time he obviously — it would obviously lead the connnittee to believe
that Mr. Hiss knew Mr. Crosley 3 or 4 months after the period that
Mr. Crosle,v, as Mr. Hiss said, welshed on his rent.
It also was apparent that he gave the car to him at a time — that he
gave the car to him after Mr. Hiss had learned that Mr. Crosley was
not financially responsible and that he had not paid his rent.
That is my summary of it, Mr. Chairman, and I have no further
questions on the car.
Mr. Hiss. May I make a comment at this time, Mr. Chairman ?
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Mr. Hiss. I would like to saj^ that the record which Mr. Nixon has
attempted to summarize will, of course, speak for itself. I am glad
that the record is now being made public by the committee so that
others may make their own summar^^ of it.
I do not accept the summarization that Mr. Nixon has just made.
But, of course, that is his privilege. It is the privilege of anyone to
summarize the record.
May I at this time renew the request I made earlier to read into
the record my statemejit? At the time I first appeared on the stand
this morning you said the committee would reconsider ni}^ request.
Mav I at this time be permitted to read into the record
The Chairman. Yes. May I see your statement, please?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Chairman, you sav von have already seen it. You
said you read it in the paj^ers.
The Chairman. You said there were some changes from the last
one.
Mr. Hiss. No; I said I have a few points I would like to add to it,
Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. You don't mind if I look at it?
]Mr. Hiss. I have them in notes. I also have some questions that I
would like to address to Mi'. Crosley-Chambers.
The Chairman. May I see the statement, just the statement?
Mr. Hiss. The statement is the letter that was sent to you yesterday.
Do you want to see that ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1127
The Chairman. I thought you said this moriiLiig, though, that
there were some changes from that.
Mr. PIiss. I said this morning and I say again, Mr. Chairman, in
addition to reading that letter into the record I have a few other points'
I Avould like to make on which I merely have notes, and there are a
few questions I would like to ask Mr. Chambers-Crosley.
The Chaikman. Just let the Chair see that statement and in the
meantime Mr. Mundt will ask a question of the witness.
]Mr. jMundt. JSlr. Hiss. I don't know whether you were asked the
question or not, but do you know or did you ever know a man by the
name of Rosen to whom — who was supposed to be the final owner of
that car of yours?
Mr. Hiss. So fai' as I know, I never heard the name before today.
Mr. Mundt. You have no recollection at all of that?
Mr. Hiss. I have no recollection of the name Rosen.
JNIr. jMundt. I want to go into a little different matter with you for
a while because this strikes back to the first day you testified before
the connnittee, at which time I was the acting chairman in the absence
of Mr. Thomas due to illness.
At the time when j'ou were first appearing before the committee you
denied categorically that you ever knew Whittaker Chambers and you
also, when presented a picture of Mr. Chambers taken the day he ap-
j^eared before the committee, said that you could not identify that
picture as being anybody whom you had ever known by the name of
Mr, Chambers or any other name,
Mr. Hiss. Tliat is correct,
Mr. Mundt. That is correct. Now, I have a picture that was taken
of Mr. Chambers the daj' he testified, which was shortly before you
appeared before the committee at your own request. You will recall
you telegraphed the committee that you would like to appear on
Thursday morning, and we heard vou at that time,
Mr, Hiss. I did, Mr, Mundt,
Mr, Mundt, I have here the picture which you were shown at that
time, which you will see is an exact likeness of the same Mr. Chambers
who is now sitting over there in that corner of the room.
Mr. Hiss, May I see this picture ?
Mr, Mundt. Yes; you may. I am putting it down for that pur-
pose.
Mr, Hiss. I don't wish to be technical, but this is not the picture
shown to me on the .5th of August.
Mr, jSIundt. It may not be. That was a picture taken on that day.
Mr. Hiss. I was not shown that on August 5. I was shown one
picture on that day.
Mr. Mundt. It is not my point that that was the particular picture,
but that is a picture taken on the day he testified.
]\Ir. Stripling. This picture was made by the Associated Press on
August 3.
Mr. Hiss. What is the question, Mr. Mundt?
Mr. Mundt. The question is whether you see any marked facial
differences at all between Mr. Chambers as he sits over there now
and the Mr. Chambers on the ])icture you now- have before j'ou.
Mr. Hiss. No marked differences; no, Mr. Mundt.
1128 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. MuNDT. You feel if you had seen that picture and then seen Mr.
Chambers come walking into the room, that you would identify the
two as being the same?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Mundt, I would like to remind you— I think you were
not in New York on the day when I first saw Mv. Chambers since this
testimony of his had occurred.
Mr. Mundt. That is correct. I was not present.
Mr. Hiss. I identified Mr. Chambers as the man I had known as
Crosley on several different grounds. I said then and still say that I
can only regard his present features and pictures and looking at him
as having a certain familiarity.
Mr. Mundt. And you see no mai'ked
Mr. Hiss. I identified him on several grounds, which I think the
record will show. One was that he himself had testified he had had
major alterations in his teeth.
Mr. Stripling. I can read the record on that.
Mr. Hiss. I have a recollection of Crosley as a man with notably
poor teeth.
I also identified him on the Jjasis of his statement in my presence
that he had been in my apartment with my permission when I was not
there, but was living on P Street, and on the basis of his statement in
my presence that with my permission he had spent several days in
my house on P Street at about the same time. And finally because
he admitted to the authorship of a tall tale wliich I remembered
Crosley having told me and which I think I testified to the commit-
tee on either Monday or Tuesday that I did recall Crosley as having
told; namely, that for local color purposes as a writer he had par-
ticipated in laying the tracks of the first street railway in Washington,
D.C. ^
That struck me when I first heard it as a tall tale. It still does.
Mr. Crosley-Chambers, in my presence, before the subcommittee
Mr. Mundt. Why do you call him Mr. Crosley-Chambers?
Mr. Hiss. I first knew him as Crosley. What his name is today I
am not prepared to testify to or what other names he may have had.
Mr. Mundt. Did you know him as Mr. George Crosley or Mr.
Crosley-Chambers ?
Mr. Hiss. I knew him as Mr. George Crosley.
To complete the statement I was making, when I recited this tall
tale in his presence, he spoke up and said. "It is true. I remember
the name of the contracting firm I worked for."
When members of the committee expressed some doubt, as I had,
as to the credibility of that particular story, he said, "Oh, maybe it
wasn't the first street railway ; maybe it was the W. B. & A."
On the basis of all those facts I told your committee that I Avas pre-
pared to identify Chambers as the man I had known under the cir-
cumstances I have testified to as Crosley. That is the record. That is
the fact. Mr. Hebert accused me of agility. I accept no accusation
except that of truth.
Mr. Mundt. Now, to get back to my question, do you find any major
deviations between the picture which I have just shown you, which
is a current likeness of Mr. Whittaker Chambers as we now know him,
and Mr. Whittaker Chambers seated over there?
Mr. Hiss. No; it looks like a moderately good likeness, slightly
flattering, I would say. [Laughter.]
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1129
Tlie Chairman. I will admit that ansAver called for some laughter,
but I think we had better have more order.
Mr. MuNDT. I happen to have here, Mr. Hiss, two pictures of the
same Whittaker Chambers which were taken in 1934 at the time he
Avas living; in your apartment and known to you. I want to hand
those to you and see if you see any marked differences between the
pictures taken then and the picture taken on the day Mr. Whittaker
Chambers testified before the committee.
Mr. Hiss. I am afraid I wouldn't be able to recognize — you can only
see part of the face there. x\gain you can only see part of the face.
It w^ould be very hard to say. I have no distinct recollection at this
time of the facial appearance of George Crosley, and I have so
testified.
My strongest recollection is of the bad teeth. When I saw him for
the first time after these hearing began, I asked, as the record will
. show, if he would please open his mouth so I could look at his teeth.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss, on that point there is considerable in the
record which will be released today in which you did request ]Mr.
Croslej'^ to open his mouth and in which you even asked the name
of his dentist and wanted to consult with his dentist before you made
the identification positive.
M}^ question maj^ sound facetious, but I am just wondering: Didn't
you ever see Mr. Crosley with his mouth closed? [Laughter.]
I am serious.
Mr. Hiss. The striking thing in my memorj^ about ISIr. Crosley
The Chairman. Are you going to answer the question or are you
going to bring up another point ? Because we want you to ansAver that
particular question.
Mr. Hiss. I am attempting to answer the question, INIr. Chairman.
The Chairman, Proceed.
Mr. Hiss. The striking thing in mj recollection about Crosley was
not when he had his mouth shut, but wdien he had his mouth open.
Mr. Nixon. As far as 3'ou are" concerned, the only way you can
identify a person is when he has his mouth open ? Is that correct ?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, I am talking about
"t?
The Chairman. Just a moment. The Chair w^ould like to say Ave
must have order in here and if you have got any very humorous
remarks in the way of answ^ers, call me out later on and give them
to me because I always like a good laugh, but let's not liaA^e any more
laughing in here if Ave can possibly avoid it.
Mr. Hiss. I understood the laughter to be at the question, not
at the answer, Mr. Chairman. Maybe you or Mr. Nixon Avould like
to AvithdraAv and tell your jokes.
The Chairman. It makes no difference Avhether it is the question
or the answer. We have to have order. Noav proceed.
Mr. Hiss. Will you repeat the question, please?
Mr. NixoN. As I recall the question, I asked AAdiether or not in
identifying a person you have knoAvn as you had knoAvn Mr. Crosley
for several months, it Avas necessary for you to see him Avith his mouth
open.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, my testimony with respect to Crosley has
been Avith respect to one individual under the circumstances under
Avhich I knew that individual. I have not testified that I cannot iden-
tify anybody generally except by whether his mouth is open or not
1130 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. Another point that you raised was this, Mr. Hiss. Did
I understand yon to say that you were basing or did base your posi-
tive identification of Mr. Crosley on, among otlier facts, the fact
that he had agreed that he had told the tale about working on the
Washington street railway ?
Mr. Hiss. That was one of the elements.
Mr. Nixon. Let me read the record to yon on that point because I
think it will refresh your memory. I am turning to page 31 ~^ of the
record, Counsel, on the day of the identification.
Mr. Davis. Will you wait just a second until I get the record.
Mr. Nixox. Certainly. I want you to read it, too. It is page 31
of the iTth. I am sorry, Counsel, it is page 33.-^ I have the page
wrong.
Mr. Davis. I have it before me. It is still the wrong page.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. McDowell is asking the question :
Well, now, Mr. Hiss, you positively identify —
and Mr. Hiss interrupting :
Positively on the basis of liis own statement tliat he was in my apartment at
the time wiien I say he was there. I have no further question at all. If he had
lost both eyes and taken his nose off, I would be sure.
Mr. ]\IcDowELL. Then your identification of George Crosley is complete?
Mr. Hiss. Yes ; as far as I am concerned, on his own testimony.
And then about 20 minutes later over on page 48,'° for the first time
on that day tliis story about the Washington street railway came into
the testimony.
Now, how could that have entered into this identification of him?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, I tell you it did. You quote me a passage in
which I said I identified him. I can only say these stories about the
street railway made certainty doubly sure.
Mr. Nixon. I see, but you had positively identified him before he
told you the story of the street railway ?
Mr. Hiss. On the basis of his own testimony, if any of his testimony
can be believed. He could only be Crosley because no one else had
access to my apartment and my house under the circumstances which
were described except Crosley.
Mr. Nixon. You consider Crosley an inveterate liar, I understand.
Mr. Hiss. I wouldn't want to overstate anvthing before this com-
mittee.
Mr. Nixon. And yet you believed him completely when he told you
lie stayed in your apartment.
Mr. Hiss. But I did agree with one part of your summarization
when you said I had attacked his credibility.
Mr. Nixon. And yet when he told you he stayed in your apartment
jou took that statement at face value ?
Mr. Hiss. I said I didn't see how anyone could have testified to
details about my personal belongings and the furnishings and the
places I lived, could have testified that he had been in my apartment
and my house under the circumstances that Crosley had been unless
it were Crosley.
Mr. NixoN. And you had positively identified Mr. Crosley as Crosley
long before the matter of the street railway came up. That is what
the record shows.
^ p. 31 denotes original transcript.
=** P. .S3 denotes original transcript. See p. 988, this publication.
'" P. 48 denotes original transcript. See p. 994, this publication.
COMMUXIST ESPIONAGE 1131
Mr. Hiss. Tlie record shows what it shows.
Mr. Nixon. That is correct.
Mr. STiaPLiNG. May I i)iit this into the record, Mr. Chairman? I
believe you testified that Mr. Crosley gave yon a rno- at one time in
l^art payment for the apartment.
Mr. Hiss. I did. ^
Mr. Stripling. Yon recall then that he gave yon a rug but yim don't
recall whether he gave you the car back. Is that correct?
Mr. Hiss. That is correct.
^Ir. MuNDT. Now, going on, I have shown these two pictures of
Mr. Chambers taken in 10:>4, together with a picture of Mr. Chambers
taken a few liours before your testimony, to a great many objective
l^eople, members of this committee and others, and you are the only
one up to now who has said he wouldn't be able to see the striking
similai"ity between the pictures taken in 1934 and the picture now.
Mr. Hiss. I said, Mr. Mundt
Mr. Mundt. There is a little portion of the baby's clothing cutting
off one portion of the ear and part of the teeth of Mr. Chambers, but
his eyes are both evident, his hair is evident, the general facial char-
^acteristics are evident, and what is hard for me to understand is why a
man whom you now recognize, you say, as being Mr. Crosley, and
looks as much as he does like the gentleman whose picture was taken
liere in 1984, wliy you should have told us on that first day that you
never laid eyes on the man.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Mundt, I told you on that first day that I, as far as I
feiew, had never laid eyes on Whittaker Chambers. I have also said —
and the record will show I said it to the committee on the IGth and I
said it to others before that — that there was a certain familiarity
about the pictures I had seen in the press of the man who calls himself
Chambers. There is still a certain familiarity. That is all I am able
to say about his present appearance.
If the George Crosley of 1934 could somehow be materialized and
walk into the room, particularly if he kept his mouth closed, Mr.
Nixon, I am not sure that I would be able definitely to pick him out
of a group of other people. I have no clear recollection.
Mr. ]MuNDT. When did you first conclude — because I was not present,
I wasn't at that portion of the hearing — that instead of this Whit-
taker Chambers being a man about whom you knew nothing about,
"svhom you had never seen, that perhaps he was a George Crosley with
whom you had had a great many personal dealings? When did you
first conclude that and why ?
]Mr. Hiss. That question is, to say the least, a slightly loaded ques-
tion. You talked about "a great many personal dealings."
Mr. Mundt.. Yes. You loaned him a car or gave it to him, and
you loaned him your apartment or gave it to him, you loaned him money
or 3^ou gave it to him, you entertained him in your home, you took
him out to lunch. I think that stands as "a great many personal
associations."
Mr. Hiss. That is your privilege, Mr. Mundt. Leaving aside that
aspect of the question, I think the record will show that in my testi-
mony on the 16th I told the subcommittee that on the basis of certain
press leaks that I had seen Monday morning about testimony with
respect to my places of abide, personal details, I had tried to think
of anyone who could be in position to give Chambers information
1132
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
about me and I had written down a name because it didn't come readily^
and that name I gave to the subcommittee in the course of my testimony
Monday afternoon, the 16th.
Mr. MuNDT. Let me change now to another topic.
Mr. Davis. Mr. Chairman, wouki it be possible to liave those pic-
tures put into the record of this committee as an exhibit or in some
manner because there has been a lot of testimony about them, and it
seems to me the printed record without the pictures would be hard to
understand.
Mr. MuNDT. I hope so, if we can induce the Government Printing
Office to put in a photograph. I don't know if they will or not.
The Chairman. Without objection, it will be ordered that they will
be put in the record at this point.
Mr. Stripling. All three of the pictures?
Mr. MuNDT. All three of the pictures.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. MuNDT. That is a good idea.
(The three pictures referred to above are below and on the facing
page.)
Wliittaker Chambers and his child. Snapshots taken in 1934.
Mr. MuNDT. Since the question has come up so often, the thing we
are really trying to get to, Mr. Hiss, is the credibility of your testi-
mony versus the credibility of the testimony of Mr. Chambers and
whether you have been completely forthright with this committee or
whether you have been concealing some of the details which you can-
not remember. I think the following question Avould be pertinent:
Let me ask, first of all, when did you first get employment with the
Carneaie Foundation ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
1133
Mr. Hiss. I was elected to luy present position in December 11)46
bv the board of trustees.
' ]Mr. MuxDT. At that time did you tell anything to any of the people
vcho interviewed you or talked with you about that employment? Did
3'ou tell them about these questions which had been laised by the
FBI when they came and interviewed you?
Mr. Hiss. At that time, ^Ir. Mundt! the FBI had not come to inter-
vieAv me.
^Ir. JMuxDT. They came to vou subsequent to your employment?
Mr. Hiss. They did.
Associated Press photo.
Wliittaker Chambers photographed at time of
liis testimony before the Committee on Un-
American Activities, Washington, D. C,
August o, rj4S.
'Sir. Xixox. Did you tell them at that time about the fact that you
had had the interview with ^Ir. Tamm and his people as a result of
Mr. Byrnes having told you in 19J:6 that there w^ere charges that
were going to. be made by Members of Congress and as a result j^ou
should see the FBI? Did you tell them about that FBI interview?
Mr. Hiss. My recollection on that point, Mr. Nixon, is that shortly
after I had been elected but before I had assumed office I had a con-
versation with Mr. John Foster Dulles in which he said that he had
heard reports that people had called me a Communist. We discussed
those reports at that time.
I can only assume — this being at least a month before I assumed
office — more than a month — that Mr. Dulles was satisfied that there
was nothing to the reports, as I was myself.
1134 COMMUNIST ESPIOXAGE
Mr. MuNDT. You missed my question. I want to read from your .
testimony on page 370/^ which you gave on August 5, the first day 1
you appeared before the committee. You said :
In 1940, shortly after I came back from London where I had been at the first
nieeting of the General Assembly of the United Nations, Mr. Justice Byrnes, then
Secretary of State and my chief, called me into his office. He said that several
Members of Congress were preparing to make statements on the floor of Cpn-
gress that I was a Communist. He asked me if I were, and T said I was not.
He said, "This is a very serious matter. I think all the stories center from
the FBI. I think they are the people who have obtained whatever information
has been obtained. I think you would be well advised to go directly to the
FBI and offer yourself for a very full inquiry and investigation."
Then without burdening the record with the rest of your testimony,
3^ou testified that j^ou did go to the FBI and that j^ou talked either
with Mr. Tamm or with a Mr. Ladd.
The point I raise is this : The test of forthrightness of your state-
ments, whether before you accepted employment with the Carnegie
Peace Foundation 3^ou told your prospective employers of this con-
versation with Mr. Justice Byrnes and of your subsequent talk with
the FBI, both of which occurred before you took the position with
the Carnegie Peace Foundation.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Munclt, to the best of my recollection, the circum-
stances to which you allude are as follows :
I had been anxious to return to private life sometime before 1946 ;
at the conclusion of the San Francisco Conference in particular. I
' had had talks with my old law firm in Boston. I told my then chief,.
Secretary Stettinius, my desire and he urged — that is not too strong a
word for me to use — me to stay for at least one further year because of
the grasp of details relating to United Nations affairs which I had.
I stayed at his urging. At the time that Justice Byrnes spoke to
me and that I went on my own initiative promptly to Mr. Ladd or
to Mr. Tamm, I thought that that disposed of the matter. At the
time when I accepted election as president of the Carnegie Endow-
ment I particularly checked with Justice Byrnes as to whether I had
my work in the Department in sufficient shape so that it was appro-
priate without injury to the Government's interests for me to leave.
I particularly reminded him that at the time wdien these charges had
first come up in March I had said to him, "If there is any embarrass-
ment to the Department about any of this, Mr. Byrnes, I will of
course be prepared immediately to resign from the Department. I
don't lilve to resig'ii under fire or in a fight. ' He agreed wnth me.
In the late fall or early winter wdien I was preparing to accept
election as president of the Carnegie Endowment, I checked with him
specifically as to whether he thought the issue had been laid to rest,
whether it was then an appropriate time for me to carry out the de-
sire I had long had or whether he thought there was still a fight.
It was his impression, as I recall it, as it was certainly mine — I had
been asked only cursory questions when I went to Mr. Ladd's office —
that the matter had been entirely laid to rest.
Mr. MuNDT. That is a very long answer, but if I understand the
pertinent parts, the answer means that you did not then give that
information to the directors or the employing officials of the Carnegie
Peace Foundation at the time they employed you.
"1 p. 370 denotes original transcripts See p. 648, this publication.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1135
You ma}' have thought it was immaterial or may have thought
it was laid to rest, but at all events you did not take it up with them
and thev did not know about it at that time.
Mr. Hiss. Before I assumed office, the matter was discussed between
me and Mr. Dulles, as I testified. It was sometime in December. I
assumed office February 1, 1947. Sometime in December 1946 the
matter was discussed between me and Mr. Dulles.
Mr. ;Muxdt. Did you bring it up with Mr. Dulles or did Mr. Dulles
bring it up with you ?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. 'Dulles called me and said he had had a report. I
said, "I thouglit that had been laid to rest," and I discussed it with
him then.
JNIr. MuNDT. So, it still stands for the record, whether it has any
pertinency or not, that you of your own volition did not bring this
matter up with your prospective employers?
Mr. Hiss. It stands for the record the way I testified.
Mr. MuNDT. That is the way you have testified.
Now, let me ask you when you first heard of the fact that Whittaker
Chambers went to' A. A. Berle in the presence of Isaac Don Levine
and told about his operations as a Communist functionary and gave
your name as one of the people with whom he had been associated,,
when did you first hear about that?
Mr. Hiss. Not until either the day or the date after Whittaker
Chambers testified before this committee or subsequent to then —
whether I heard about it right then I do not know, but I did not hear
of it at anytime before August 3 of this year.
Mr. MuxDT. It liad never been brought to your attention?
Mr. Hiss. It had never been brought to my attention.
Mr. MuNDT. ^Ir. Chairman, I have a statement which I would like
to make as a preface to the statement that Mr. Hiss is going to make
subsequently, but I shall defer to see what other members of the
committee have questions first.
The Chairman. All right. The Chair would like to make a state-
ment.
Will the officer over at the door ]dease clear the people away from
the door so peo])le can get in and out ?
AVill the officer who seems to be lost in the crowd see if he can do
something ?
Mr. Hebert.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Hiss, you just testified in answer to a question of
Mr. Mundt's that you had "never heard of the accusations of Chambers
until August 3, 1 think it was. when these inquiries began.
Mr. Hiss. Mv. Hebert, I testified that I had never heard until August
3 that when Wliittaker Chambers had been to ]Mr. Berle with accusa-
tions about me. I had heard earlier than that date that a man named
Chambers had said I Avas a Communist. I think I testified to that
in the record.
Mr. Hebert. You heard that a man named Chambers had said you
were a Communist. What did you do about it?
Mr. Hiss. May I aixain tell vou the circumstances under which I
heard about it?
Sometime in the past winter I learned indirectly, not froui the
individual friend invoh'ed, that a friend of mine attending a dinner
1136 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
party had heard a fellow guest at the dinner party say that Alger Hiss
was a Communist and had been when he was in Government service.
This friend of mine had challenged this fellow guest and the felloAV
guest said, "I know it, because a man named Chambers said so."
The friend, according to the report as I got it, had followed it up,
and had been told several days later by that same person that the per-
son had checked back, and the person had been told that Chambers
had been talking too much and was not saying now ; so that I paid no
further attention to it.
A lot of people, Mr. Hebert, have been called Communists in recent
vears.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Hiss, is it then your testimony that the first time
you ever heard of Whittaker Chambers in connection with allegations
that you are a Communist was during this past winter ?
Mr. Hiss. That is correct.
Mr. MuNDT. That would be the winter of 19 ■
Mr. Hiss. 1948.
Mr. MuNDT. You never heard about it before ?
Mr. Hiss. I did not.
Mr. MuNDT. You are sure of that?
Mr. Hiss. I am confident of it. That is my very best recollection.
Mr. MuNDT. Let me read this, Mr. Hiss, because this is one of the
disturbing parts of your testimony. Let me read what you told us in
your prepared statement wdien you came here on August 5 of youi'
own volition, testifying under oath. Counsel will find it on page 357 : ''-
To the best of my knowledge I never heard of Whittaker Chambers until in
1947 when two representatives of the Federal Bureau of Investigation asked me
if I knew him and various other peojile, some of wh(jm I knew and some of wliom
I did not know.
Now, what do you expect this committee to do with a fabric of con-
tradictory evidence like that, Mr. Hiss?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Mundt,;nay I say that I am profoundly shocked by
your characterization of what you have just read. I think you will
find in the record — if not, it is high time it got in the record, and I
liope you can get from the FBI agents who interviewed me their ac-
count of the interview — I think I testified that when those two- men
came to see me, they asked me if I knew a long list of names — 30, 40 —
I wouldn't remember how many — I would say according to my recol-
lection there must have been 15 names that I had never heard of before.
One of the names I had never heard of before was Chambers, Whit-
taker Chambers. I remembered the name, because of the way in whicli
the name had come up in the conversation.
Mr. MuNDT. That was in 1947 ?
Mr. Hiss. Just a moment, Mr. Mundt. They in no way indicated
that Chambers or any one of the other names I had or had not heard of
was making any charge against me. It was merely one of a number
of names, some of which I knew and a considerable luunber of which
I had never heard of before.
Thei-e is no contradiction, and I resent and protest your saying it was
contradictory testimony.
Mr, Mundt. There is a contradiction because you just testified to
Mr. Hebert that the first time you had ever heard of Mr. Whittaker
Chambers was last winter.
^- p. 357 denotes original transcript. See p. 643, this publication.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1137
Mr. Hiss. I do not
Mr. MuNDT. Now you tiwy you heard about him in 1947. If that
isn't a contradiction, I don't recognize it.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Mundt, I do not think I testified to Mr. Hebert that
the first time I ever heard of Chambers was last winter. I under-
stood Mr. Hebert to ask me when I first heard tliat Chambers had
said I was a Commimist, and those are two very different statements.
Mr. Mundt. We will have to let the record speak for that.
Mr. Hiss. We certainl}- will.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Hiss, when the picture of Mr. Chambers was first
presented to you here when you first appeared, at that time you said
you would rather see the man to positively identify him.
Mr. Hiss. I did.
Mr. Hebeut. Today you say, you told the committee that you did
recognize some familiarity in the photograph.
Mr. Hiss. I did not testify today that I told the committee that on
the 5th. It was in my mind. I do not find it in the record. I do
recall having said that to a number of individuals on the 4tli, the day
before I testified. I did testify to it on the 16th.
The fact is, there was a certain familiarity in the features. I
could not tell whether I was imagining it. There is still a certain
familiarity.
Mr. Hebert. You told somebody before you appeared before the
committee that there was a familiarity ?
Mr. Hiss. I told several people.
Mr. PIf^bert. Several people ^
Mr. Hiss. Yes, I did.
Mr. Hp^bert. Why didn't you tell the committee that?
Mr. Hiss. The committee did not specifically ask me. I was shown
a photograph. I was asked if I could identify it.
Mr. Hebert. I will read from the record, Mr. Hiss, and you have
read the record, too — you seem to have studied it pretty well.
Counsel, this is page 367 : ^^
Mr. Stkipling. I have here, Mr. Chairman, a picture which was made last
Monday by the Associated Press. I understand from people who knew Mr.
Chambers during 1934 and '35 that he is much heavier today than he was at that
time, but I show you this picture, Mr. Hiss, and ask you if you have ever known
an individual who resembles this picture.
It seems to me that is quite a direct question. To which you replied :
Mr. Hiss. I would much rather see the individual. I have looked at all the
pictures I was able to get hold of in, I think it was, yesterday's paper which had
the pictures. If this is a picture of Mr. Chambers, he is not particularly unusual
looking. He looks like a lot of people. I might even mistake him for the chair-
man of this committee.
The chairman of the committee was Mr. Mundt at that time.
Mr. Mundt replied :
I hope you are wi-ong in that.
Mr. Hiss replied :
I didn't mean to be facetious, but very seriously I would not want to take
oath that I have never seen that man. I would like to see him and then I think
I would be better able to tell whether I had ever seen him. Is he here today?
^' P. 367 denotes original transciipt. See p. 647, this publication.
80408—48 41
1138 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. MUNDT. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Hiss. I hoped he wouhl be.
Now, that is the cold record, Mr. Hiss. ^Yhy didn't you tell us
that the picture looked familiar to you at that time ? Although yt>u
took occasion to tell people the day before ?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Hebert* as you read the record, 3X)u will notice theie
was an interruption and the committee did not proceed with much
more about the photograph. There was- an interruption when I said
I did not mean to be facetious, and I did not, but there had been an
interruption. I have no way of knowing why I did not happen to
mention everything that was in my mind «n that particular occasion.
I have told you — and it is the truth — that I did notice a certain fa-
miliarity in tlie pictures. I was not sure that that familiarity was
significant.
I could be imagining it. It was not an unusual face as I saw it in
the pictures.
Mr. Hebert. But you did think it of importance to tell other people
before you appeared before this committee that there was some fa-
miliarity about the man's pictures?
Mr. Hiss. People with whom I was dicussing this strange occur-
rence and proceeding.
Mr. Hebert. But you didn't think it of importance to tell this com-
mittee that ?
Mr. Hiss. It did not at the moment that I was testifying on the
particular subject of recognition. I don't remember how many other
passages there were in the record about recognition. It didn't seem
of sufficient importance for me to mention ; that seems obvious.
Mr. HebepvT. We were trying to establish an identity which is most
important and very pertinent to this inquiry, and you left the commit-
tee with this impression, and I am sure everybody else that heard it,
that you had never seen this man Chambers or anybody who even
remotely looked like him.
Mr. Hiss. Mi-. Hebert, you are bettei- able to testify as to the
impressions of the comnnttee than I am.
Mr. Nixon. On that point here is another reference.
The Chairman. Just a moment.
Mr. Hebert, do you yield?
Mr. Hebert. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. I am reading from page 355 : '*
Mr. MuNDT. I am getthig to it. I want to say for one member of the com-
mittee that it is extremely inizzlin.g that a man" who is senior editor of Time
magazine, by the name of Whittaker Chambers, whom I had never seen until
;i da.\- or two ago, and whom you say you have never seen
Mr. Hiss. As far as I know, I have never seen him.
Now, the impression that was left with me — and I must join Mr.
Hebert in this— I think the committee left with the prfess and I have
read most of the stories that appeared in the newspapers the fol-
lowing day — was that you testified vou had never seen his man.
Mr. Davis. This page was 365 : -'^ '
Mr. Nixon. 3(')5.
jNIr. Davis. And the page Mr. Hebert was reading was what?
"^ p. .355 denotes original transcript.
^s P. 8fi5 denotes original transcript. See p. 640, this publication.
'communist espionage 1 139
^Ir. HKiiEKT. 367/"'
Mr. Davls. The picture luul not been shown at this time. It was a
question of names rather than pictures.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss had previously testified he had seen the pic-
tures the day before, Mr. Hiss testified he had been studying the
pictures the day before. He knew what we were referring to and he
still said, "As far as I know, I have never seen him." I can only say
that the impression left with the committee was that he had never
seen this man.
Now. I understand his testimony now is that he did recognize a
certain familiarity and told friends the day before that he did
lecognize that familiarit3^
Ml'. Hiss. That is correct, Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Ntxox. But you didn't tell this committee that.
^Ir. Hiss. You have referred to the impression not only of the
committee but to the impression of the press. My recollection is that
Mr. Stri})ling at one of the hearings in New York also referred to
the impression of the press and I replied to him that perhaps he had
helped create the impression of the press, which did not have any basis
that I could see simply from the record to have any such basis.
Mr. MuNDT. At that point, if he will yield
The CiiAiRMAX. Mr. Hebert has the floor.
]Mr. Hkuert. Of course. Mr. Hiss, the record speaks for itself.
Your replies were heard by the press and the people in this room and
Mr. vStripling, as a matter of fact, had nothing to do to create any
impression except by what you said.
Mr. Hiss. Well, now
Mr. Hebert. Let me finish. I might also say, Mr. Hiss, that you
created a most favorable impression the first day you appeared.
Mr. Hiss. Thank you, Mr. Hebert.
Mr. HEiiERT. And when anybody had an opportunity, however, to
read the cold record, they didn't get the same im2:)ression from the
record as they thought they had gotten when you v/ere testifying^
orallv because as I told you before, you are a verv 'agile young man.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Hebert^^—
Mr. Hebert. Wait just a minute. I will let you make all the
speeches 3^ou want. Let me get mine in now.
I repeat you are a very agile young man and a very clever young^
man and your conduct on all appearances before this committee has
shown that you are very self-possessed and you know what you are
doing and you know yourself why you are answering and how you
are answering.
Now. that is the reason why I am trying to find out exactly where
the truth lies. I can't understand and I can't reconcile aiuf resolve
the situation that an individual of your intellect and your ability who
gives to casual j^eople his apartment, who tosses in an automobile, who
doesn't know the laAvs of liability, wdio lends money to an individual
just casually, is so cautious another time.
It seems to me it is a demonstration of a very remarkable agility.
Now, that is the reason Avhy I want to be sure in repeatedly asking
these questions that there can be no doubt in anybody's mind about
w^hat you mean to say as contrasted to what 5^011 sa3^
^'' p. 367 denotes original transcript. See p. 647, this publication.
1140 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Now, the impression was definite that you liad never seen that pic-
ture— and, incidentally, these pictures have been shown to several
people, innumerable people, of Chambers taken in 'oi and the pic-
ture today. Without hesitancy every individual has remarked about
the striking similarity between the two men, which are natural Ij^ the
same man.
And yet you and you alone — you, and you alone — sit here today
and stand out as a lone individual who hedges and resorts to techni-
calities that you can't tell.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Hebert, that was a very loaded statement.
Mr. Hebert. I hope it was because I want you to get the full impact
of it. [Applause.]
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Hebert, we will see people's judgment of the photo-
graphs when the photographs are made public. I don't kno\v how
many people have seen them.
Now, your specific question of me, I understand, again relates to the
question of why I was unable to identify a picture, a single picture
that was shown to me, and I think it would be wise if the record
showed the particular picture which was shown to me.
My recollection is it was a picture taken at a candid-camera angle
from under the chin. I don't know whether Mr. Stripling still has
or marked as an exhibit the particular picture shown to me. I think
that picture is relevant.
The Chairman. May I see those pictures again ?
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent that the pic-
tures shown Mr. Hiss that day be put in the record. I think you were
shown two pictures.''^
Mr. Hiss. I think just one picture. My recollection is only one
picture.
, Mr. MuNDT. It should be in the record.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Hebert, the name Crosley was not in my mind at all
when I was testifying before this committee. There was not remote
<:onnection in my mind between that man, the transactions I had had
with him, and the charges that a man named Chambers was now
making against me.
Why should I have connected the two people at that time? Per-
haps you knew more connections between them than I did. I knew of
no connection.
I first thought of Crosley after various accounts apparently from
his own secret testimony of his having personal knowledge about me
<;ame to my attention, while I was on the train coming down here
voluntarily, willingly, and promptly in response to a telegram from
the chairman of your committee as to whether I would appear in
■executive session on Monday, the 16th.
Now, all the confusion might very well have been avoided if you
had had him here the first day. I hoped he would be. I remarked
on the fact that he was not here the first day.
Mr. Hebert. Of course, that is mere speculation on what you would
Lave done the first day.
Mr. Hiss. You said I could continue after you had finished, Mr.
Hebert.
Mr. Hebert. Certainly. I apologize.
3'' See pp. 1132 and 1133.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1141
Ml". Hiss. Thank you. You have compared what you term my cau-
tion in testifying on AAhat to me was a very important fact: Who was
my accuser on such a serious charge? You have compared that in
importance to trivial transactions of 14 years earlier. I do not think
that is a fair comparison. I do not think it is fair to say that because
T acted in that particular case, acted with what I have said before
seems to me ordinary kindness in dealing with people on relatively
unimportant matters, that that is inconsistent on such an important
jiiatter as my public testimony on such a charge as has been made.
I said I would want to see the man face to face. You are privileged
(o have your own interpretation, Mr. Hebert, and, thank goodness, I
am i^rivileged to have mine.
jMr. Hebert. I always respect your interpretation of anything the
same as I think the committee wants its interpretation respected here,
and we are only trying to get to the truth. As I told you the other
day in executive session. I told you that either you or Mr. Chambers
"NA'as the damnedest liar that ever came on the American scene.
Mr. Hiss. And I am just as anxious to get at the truth as y-ou are.
Mr. Hebert. And whichever one of you is lying is the greatest
actor we have ever seen in this country.
The Chairman. Mr. Vail.
Mr. Vail. Mr. Stripling, the name Bialek is a rather unusual one
and one that rings a bell in my memory. About a year ago four stu-
dents of the DePaul University in Chicago came into my office and
said they were down here for the purpose of lobbying in behalf of the
GI subsistence bill and certain things liad occurred that they thought
merited congressional attention.
They said when they arrived in Washington, they were mef at the
train by a man named Robert Bialek. Mr. Bialek undertook to find
them housing and he took them to the home of a man named Lichten-
stein. Mr. Lichtenstein proved to be a very cordial host. One of the
things the}' noticed when they entered the hall in going up the stairs
was a large framed picture of' Joe Stalin, and when they reached the
rooms to which they were assigned, they found a table in the center of
each room loaded with communistic literature.
Subsequently they were escorted to parties where they were sub-
jected to communistic propaganda.
So they reported the incident and we held a hearing and went into
the matter quite thoroughly, and it is a matter of the committee
records. I think this particular phase of this matter, in view of the
fact that the automobile we are discussing found its way into the hands
of a man named Rosen who resided at this same' address of Robert
Bialek. is sufficient of a coincidence to justify some exploration.
Have you any information, Mr. Stripling, as to whether or not there
was any relation between Robert Bialek and Benjamin Bialek^
Mr. Stripling. Robert is the. son of Benjamin Bialek.
Mr. Vail. That is all.
The Chairman. That is all.
Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDowell. I have a couple of very minor questions, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Hiss, you served as, I believe, the assistant counsel to the old Nye
committee.
Mr. Hiss. I was the chief attorney they had.
1142 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. iSIcDowELL. You were the cliief attorney ?
Mr. Hiss. The chief investigator was Mr. Raushenbush. He was
my superior. I Avas sort of second in command, but I was the cliief
attorney they had.
Mr. McDoAVELL. HoAvever, during- the many, many hearings they
held, I presume you directed questions at various witnesses.
Mr. Hiss. I conducted a number of the cases directly myself in the
preparation and the actual presentation of the cases; ves, Mr.
JSIcDowell.
Mr. McDowell. Do .you have a cop}^ of the hearings?
Mr. Hiss. Those hearings were all publishi>d. They are in the
Senate records. They were published by the committee. They are in
libraries all over the country, Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDowell. That is all the questions I have. I would like to
say one short thing to ISIr. Hiss.
This is a committee of Congress designated by the Congress to do
exactly what we are doing. Without making any accusations, Mr.
Hiss, at all, and without getting into any sort of a controversy as to
who is lying or who is not lying in this matter, a highly intelligent
American and a former high officer of the Government, if the story
Mr. Chambers told is true and that a Connnunist had established
himself in a very high place in various divisions of the Govei-nment,
that in view of the fact that we represent the safety of 140,000,000
people who obviously don't want the flag of the hammer and sickle
flying over the Capitol — would it be your idea that we should exhaust
every possible trace to find out if it were true '.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. McDowell, I urged this committee in the letter I sent
to the committee yesterday — and I hope I will have a chance to read
that letter into the i-ecord
The Chairman. You certainly will have a chance.
Mr. Hiss. It ought to be a part of the record. What did j^ou say?
The Chairman. You certainly will have a chance.
Mr. Hiss. I certainly urged this committee not to follow any hit-
and-run tactics, to keep right after this issue of who is Chambers,
what credibility to give to his fantastic testimony. I certainly do and
1 intend to do the best I can to get to the bottom of this and to give this
conmiittee any inforaiation I can dig up, and I have asked my counsel
so to do as my counsel digs up any facts.
]Mr. McDowell. I'hank you, Mr. Hiss. You may be sure this will
be no hit-and-run affair at all. We will follow it down to the very
last thr'^ad, regardless of the cost, regardless of the time, regardless
of who is to be embarrassed.
So far as smearing goes, I have been talked about so nuich during
these hearings — no Americans have been subjected to any more smears
than all of the members of this committee, from various angles.
Thank you very much.
The Chairman. Mr. Hiss, you referred to a picture you had seen, I
believe you said that some member of the committee had shown you
this picture or you saw the picture in the newspaper. You said the
picture was taken at an angle from beloAv the person.
INIr. Hiss. That is my recollection of the picture that was shown me
on August 5, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. It wasn't the picture you saw today, then ?
Mr. Hiss. I don't think so, Mr. Chairman. It is not my recollection.
COMMUXIST ESPIONAGE ] 143
Mr. Davis. I have asked Mr. Stripling when he identifies the picture
which was shown to Mr. Hiss, if he is willing to, to check with us to
be sure that the same picture was shown.
The CiiAiRMAx. These are the pictures that will go in.
Mr. Davjs. It has been agreed that the picture shown to Mr. Hiss
at his public testimony would go into the record, and that is the one
I want to be sure is the picture that was shown to him at his public
testimony.
Mr. SiRiPLixG. It is the Associated Press picture.
The Chairman. It will go in and these will go in, too.
Xow, ]Mr. Hiss. I am going to ask you a question that has already
been asked, but I just wanted you to try very hard to determine in
your own mind whether you can really recognize this person. First
i am going to show you this picture and ask you who that is supposed
to be.
Mr. Hiss. Mv. Chairman, this is the same picture I was shown a few
minutes ago. I may have been shown it in one of the executive sessions.
It was identified to me as a picture of Whittaker Chambers taken
while he was testifving, I believe, or sometime recentlv. It looks like
a picture of Whittaker Chambers.
The Chairman. It looks like him, doesn't it ?
Mr. Hiss. Yes. it looks — as I said before, it is slightly flattering,
but it still looks like him.
The Chairman. It really looks like him, doesn't it ?
Mr. Hiss. It looks like him ; yes.
The Chairman. I am going to show you these two pictures and
then you look at Whittaker Chambers and see if they don't look like
him.
Mv. Hiss. These are the same two snapshots that were shown me
earlier.
The Chairman. That is correct, but I am asking the question now :
Do these pictures look like the man over here who calls himself Whit-
taker Chambers ?
Mr. Hiss. Speaking with as much care as I am capable of, Mr.
■Chairman, the face is partly in the shadow, the hair is tousled, a child's
clothing obscures more than the ear, which one of the committee
members mentioned.
The Chaik^ian. You have chin, nose, and mouth left. Does it look
like this man?
]Mr. Hiss. It obscures a good deal more than an ear. I would not
he able to say this is the picture of Whittaker Chambers.
]\Ir. Davis. Mr. Chairman, I suggest
Mr. Hiss. If it is. it is. "^
The Chairman. Never mind, you keep quiet.
Mr. Hiss. If it is a picture of Whittaker Chambers, it is a picture
of him. You were asking me whether I would be able to say that it is.
I don't know the man well enough to have an}?- great confidence in
recognizing it. I don't think it is a particular!}^ clear photograi^h for
l^urposes of identification.
The Chairman. I can well imagine how you might not recognize
the baby there, but the bab}' was 8 months old when that picture was
taken. How old was the baby when she was with you ?
Mr. Hiss. I do not recall.
1144 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. Did that baby look anything like the baby ^ That
is an nnnsiial picture of the baby, too. That is not like the picture of
Mr. Chambers.
Mr. Hiss. Maybe I had better look at both of them.
The Chairman. No, no; you be quiet for a moment [addressing Mr.
Davis].
(At this point there Avas a conference between Mr. Hiss and Mr.
Davis.)
Mr, Hiss. Mr. Chairman, I do not recognize this baby as any baby
I have ever seen before. [Laughter.]
We are talking about two different photographs. Let's try to get
clear which one in the record.
The Chairman. They are both appioximately the same.
Mr. Hiss. Could we call one exhibit A and the other exhibit B?
Or something like that?
The Chairman. That is what your counsel has told you, that they
are both approximately the same and it doesn't make any difference
right at this point what we number them.
Mr. Stripling. The first one you looked at will be exhibit A.
The Chairman. All right. Now I want you to take those pictures
over to Mr. Chambers, Mr. Stripling, and ask him if they are pictures
of Mr. Chambers.
(Mr. Stripling takes pictures to Mr. Chambers and has a conversa-
tion with him.)
The Chairman. Are those pictures of Whittaker Chambers?
Mr. Stripling. I believe, Mr. Chairman, it would be better to take
the direct testimony of Mr. Chambers regarding the pictures. How-
ever, for the purpose of the record he told me that they were pictures
of himself and of the baby, and it was the baby that visited in tli.e
home of Mr. Hiss for 3 or 4 days.
The Chairman. Now, Mr. Hiss, you are unable to identify them as
pictures of Whittaker Chambers. Are they photographs of George
Crosley ?
Mr. Hiss. Again, Mr. Chairman, I am not able to identify them
with any confidence as pictures of George Crosley. I have told you
that I do not have very clear visual recollection in my own mind of
Crosley's appearance.
When I identified him in New York, I tried to be as careful as I
could. I wanted to bring no more names into this record than was
necessary. I didn't know at the time who or what Crosley was or
what damage would be done to Crosley to drag his name in. I did
not testify on Monday, the 16th, until after your subcommitte had
urged me in spite of the reservations I expressed, to tell them as
best I could my off-the-cuff recollection of those events. T tried to
be careful about dragging names into this hearing. I think the record
will show that.
The Chairman. Mr. Hiss, when you were in New York and you
identified this man over here who calls himself Whittaker Cliambers
as George Crosley, that was in 1948. Now, here is a picture we show
you of George Crosley in 1934. Isn't it reasonable to believe that it
would be easier for you to recognize him from the picture than from
George Crosley up in New York in the Commodore Hotel in 1948?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Chairman,! think I have already testified that if it
were possible to materialize by spiritualism George Crosley of 1934, if
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1145
he Avere to walk into the rooin, I still couldn't testify with absolute
certainty as to recollection of him. Maybe I could.
The CuAiRiNtAN. I want you to look at those photographs once again.
Mr. StriplixCx. This is A.
Mr. Hiss. I am now talking about A.
The Chairman. A or B.
]Mr. STRirLiNG. A has the bird bath in the background.^
]Mr. Hiss. Yes ; I have both in front of me, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Now, don't they look like George Crosley to you
as you knew him ?
Mr. Hiss. I can only repeat what I have said about the photographs
of Chambers in recent days, that there is a certain familiarity about
the face.
The Chairman. Isn't there a familiarity between those pictures and
this one right here?
Mr. Hiss. Not very great to my eyes ; some, yes.
The Chairman. Some ?
Mr. Hiss. Yes; I think it has to be judged by people who look at
the different photographs.
The Chairman. Well, Mr. Hiss, I don't want to come to any con-
clusion or make any connnents about the testimony, but I want to tell
you that I would almost be willing to wager if we showed these three
pictures around this room or any place, any group in Washington,
they would conclude that it was all the same person.
Mr. Hiss. I am not raising any question as to whether they are the
same person. I have not said I thought they were not.
The Chairiman. Do you think they are ?
Mr. Hiss. I am perfectly willing to accept the statement that they
are.
The Chairman. Not the statement that they are — Do you think
they are ?
Mr. Hiss. There is certainly a certain similarity between the pic-
tures.
The Chairman. Go ahead, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Now, Mr. Hiss, when Mr. Chambers testified before
the connnittee on August 3, he mentioned that those involved in this
nlleged group were Lee Pressman, Nathan Witt, John Abt, Henry
Collins, Donald Hiss, Harold Ware, Charles Kramer, and Victor
Perlo. We have had ail of the individuals in before the committee
who were supposed to have comprised that group, with the exception of
Harold Ware, who is dead.
Now, you have testified, I believe, that you knew John Abt.
]\Ir. Hiss. I have testified the extent to which I knew John Abt, the
occasions and the circumstances.
Mr. Stripling. I Avant the record to show, Mr. Chairman, that
when Mr. Abt was testifying before the committee on August 20,
Avhen he was asked the question by Mr. Stripling, "Mr. Abt, are you
acquainted with Alger Hiss T' that he replied :
On the grounds of objection stated by my counsel on the first amendment to
the Constitution, and by virtue of the prior objections, that the subject matter
of this inquiry is a mutter of judicial rather than congressional investigation,
under article III of the Constitution, and on the ground of unlawful and im-
proper composition of this committee under tlie fourteenth amendment, and in
exercise of my privilege against self-incrimination under the fifth amendment,
I decline to answer that question.
1146 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
When Mr. Pressman, whom you are also acquainted ^Yith, accord-
ino' to your testimony
Mr. Hiss. The record will show my testimony as to the nature
under which I have known Mv. Pressman.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Pressman has been in your home, has he not?
Mr. Hiss. I would be quite sure lie has ; yes.
Mr. Stripling. And Mr. Abt also?
Mr. Hiss.* Yes, I would think probably Mr. Abt has also during
tlie period in both cases when we were in triple A. 1 don't think
either of them has been in my home since I left the triple A.
Mr. Stripling. But during the period in question they were in
your home ?
Mr. Hiss. I think almost certainly tliey were. I have no specific
recollection of it.
Mr. Stripling. Now, Mr. Pressman in testifying before the com-
mittee on August 20 was asked :
Do you know an inclividual by the name of Alger Hiss?
Mr. Pressman answered :
Mr. Cliairnian, for the same reason I have given before I decline to answer
that question.
The reasons being, among others, self-incrimination.
Wlien Mr. Witt, who also testified on the same day and who, ac-
cording to Mr. Chambers, was head of this group at one time, was
asked:
Did you know Alger Hiss?
He said :
The same answer, if I may.
And the answer, the grounds upon which he refused to answer,
were the same as given by the other two witnesses, self-incrimination.
When Victor Perlo was before the committee he was asked :
Do you know Alger Hiss?
He said:
I must refuse to answer that question on the ground of self-incrimination
under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Stripling, may I interrupt ?
Mr. Stripling. Just a moment.
Mr. Hiss. I think I have testified I didn't know, as far as I know,
Mr. Perlo.
Mr. Stripling. I didn't say you did. Mr. Hiss.
Now, you did testify that you knew Henry Collins ?
Mr. Hiss. Yes ; the record will so show.
Mr. Stripling. I am dealing here, Mr. Hiss, with the members of
the alleged group.
Ml', Hiss. You are also dealing with people some of whom I knew
and some of whom I believe I did not.
Mr. Stripling. You did not know Mr. Perlo?
Mr. Hiss. I do not believe I knew Mr. Perlo.
Mr. Stripling. You knew all the rest?
Mr. Hiss. All the rest of the names you have just read out I did,
and the record will show how I knew them, how well, and the extent
to which I knew them.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1147
yiv. Sti{ii>i.i>,c}. Did voii know Henry Collins?
Mr. Hiss. I did.
Mr. Stripling'. Did you testify that you had been to Henry Collins'
apartment at St. jNIatthows Court ?
Mr. Hiss. I testified that 1 pi'obably had because I have been in a
luunber of places where Mr. Collins lesided and he has certainly been
in my house in a number of houses or apartments that I have had. I
have knoAvn him over a long period of time.
Mr. Stripling. Do 3^011 recall whether you were at his apartment
in St. IMntthews Court at any time when Mr. Pressman, Mr. Abt, Mr.
Perlo, INlr. Kramer, or Mr. Ware were present ?
Mr. Hiss. I Avould be quite sure that I was never in Mr. Collins'
apartment anywhere when Mr. Ware was present. I have testified as
to the extent to which I knew Mr. Ware. I would be quite confident
I have never been in any place of abode of Mr. Collins when Mr.
Perlo was present because I don't think I know Mr. Perlo.
As to the others, I may have been in one or another place of Mr.
Collins' abode when one or another or more than one of the other
people 3'ou have referred to may have been present.
If so, it was on some social occasion — dinner, cocktails, something
of that sort.
Mr. Stripling. Now, Mr. Chambers has testified that this apart-
ment at St. ^Matthews Court was the place wdiere this group met. Now%
we asked INIr. Collins when he testified before the committee on August
11, ''Did 3^ou ever meet Alger Hiss at that apartment V' and he replied :
I decline to answer that question for the same reason.
And he had just stated as his reason for declining to answer the
previous question the grounds of possible self-incrimination.
Charles Kramer testified before the connnittee on August 12. He
was asked, ''Do vou know Alger Hiss?'' He answered:
I must decline to answer that question for the same reason.
The same reason beinfj self-incrimination.
Every one of these witnesses Avho appeared before the committee
likewise refused to answer the question on whether or not they were
or had ever been members of the Communist Part}^ on the grounds
that they might incriminate themselves.
I believe j^ou have testified, Mr. Hiss, that to your knowledge none
of these people were members of the Communist Party.
Mr. Hiss. I did not testify that to my knowledge they are not.
Mr. Stripling. What did "you testify?
Mr. Hiss. I testified that I had no basis of knoAving whether they
were or were not.
JVfr. Stripling. I believe you testified that you didn't know a single
Communist.
Mr. Hiss. To the best of my knowledge, none of my friends is a
Communist.
Mr. Stripling. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
Mr. MuNDT. I think we should clear up one point at this stage.
In replying to questions by Mr. Hebert as to the impression left by
Mr. Hiss the first da}^ he was before the committee, at which time he
1148 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
concealed from lis — or at least declined to reveal to lis — the fact that
lie had told several of his friends that the picture presented of Mr.
Chambers had a slight familiarity, it was brought out that the im-
pression the committee received was that he had never laid eyes on
Mr. Chambers and had never seen Mr. Chambers and never knew him
at all, to which Mr. Hiss said :
I can't be responsible for what the impression is that the committee got.
And then he elaborated on that by saying that perhaps Mr. Stripling
sort of directed the thinking of the press, but when we suggested the
press also had the same impression — I think the best thing in that
connection would be to let the press speak for itself, Mr. Chairman.
I have here issues of the press coming out tlie night Mr. Hiss testi-
fied, and also the following morning. Certainly Mr. Stripling could
not influence the press that extensively and that quickly had he tried,
iind I am sure he didn't try. But after Mr. Hiss had concealed from us
that he saw a similarity, a familiarity, a semblance of familiarity be-
tween that picture and somebody he knew, after he had failed to tell
us that, having told it to other friends of his, the press of the Nation
responded as follows :
The Cleveland Plain Dealer, morning issue of August 6, which was
the following rnorning after that, says that Hiss went on the stand
today and denied the charges completely. He said he didn't even
know his accuser.
Then I have here the New York Daily News, issue of Friday, August
6, also a morning paper, coming out the next day, saying :
Never met him. Hiss denies ever meeting Chambers, and when a photo of
the Time Magazine editor was held before him, said "I might even mistake him
for the chairman of this committee." He said, "I don't recall a man by the
name of Chambers ever coming to my house."
We have here the issue of the Daily Worker — I don't want Mr. Hiss
just to think we are selecting these papers, but we are taking them as
they come. It says :
Hiss, former State Department official, has categorically denied spy charges
or even knowing Whittaker Chambers.
I have next the issue of the Daily News of August 6 in which it says
in another edition :
Hiss, 44, began his testimony at Mundt's hearing belittling Chambers' spy
accusation as a complete fabrication. "So far as I know I never laid eyes on
him," Hiss declares.
Here is the Christian Science Monitor, published in Boston, a report
by Maiy Hornaday, saying :
Mr. Hiss, who served in the State Department from 1936 to 1947 and helped
write the United Nations Charter, said as far as he knew he had never laid eyes
on Mr. Chambers, who also had accused his brother Donald of being a Communist.
Here is an Associated Press picture showing Mr. Hiss and Mr. Strip-
ling, saying :
Hiss unable to identify picture. Alger Hiss seated looking at a photograph
of Whittaker Chambers. He told the House Un-American Activities Committee
Thursday that he was unable to identify the picture.
The same statements appear with very slight variations, but all
bearing the impression to the country that Mr. Hiss had never seen
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE ' 1149
Chambers, recognized no similarity between that picture and anybody
he ever saw.
Here is the Scranton, Pa., Times for Monday, August 9.
Here is the Washington Evening Star. An article m the evening
issue of August 6, August 5, the day he testified, by Miriam Otten-
berg :
Hiss said he had never laid eyes on Mr. Chambers ; said he would like to have
an opportunity to do so.
Baltimore Evening Sun reporting these hearings said that —
Mr. Hiss testified under oath that he was not now and never had been a Com-
luunist and that, moreover, to the best of his knowledgli he had never laid eyes
on Chambers.
I have here the Chicago Daily News, Thursday, August 5. Edwin
A. Leahey, who is present in the room and has been very faithful in
attending these hearings — and I might add, Mr. Hiss, has been very
charitable to your whole viewpoint, certainly not biased against you,
somewhat critical of the committee because your name was brought in,
said :
House committee members listen closely to detailed denials by Hiss of every-
thing said under oath by Chambers whom Hiss said he never had met.
I think that the record of those papers should be placed in there-
because it is a crass accusation that Mr. Stripling endeavored to influ-
ence the reports in the press of the country. The committee and the
general public gathered from your testimony that you had never seen
Chambers, had never known him by any name, had never seen any-
body whose picture he recalled to your memory, and still the record
shows you told friends of yours that there was a similarity between
that picture and the picture presented to you.
I regret that you were not more forthright in your testimony before
the committee on that occasion so that this that you now say is a fals&
impression went out to the country generally.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Mundt, you used the word "concealed." I came be-
fore this committee voluntarily and I appreciate your letting me-
appear. I came on the ICtli and on the ITth in response to a request-
I said on the 16th I would be glad to be here on the 25th, today. I have
concealed nothing from this committee. I have sought no privilege
against answering any question.
Mr. Chairman, may I noAV have the opportunitj^ to read my statement
into the record ?
Mr. Nixon. I have just a few more questions, Mr. Hiss.
The point at issue in this hearing today is whether or not you knew
Crosle}^ under the circumstances that you have indicated to the com-
mittee or whether you knew Crosley under the circumstances he indi-
cated to the committee. After your testimony in public session the
committee started on the premise that you did not know Chambers and
that premise, of course, now has been changed. We do have agree-
ment on the point that you and Mr. Chambers were acquainted under
another name.
Mr. Hiss. I did not know Chambers. The name meant nothing to-
me and I so informed your committee by wire. And so testified.
Mr. Nixox. You understood, Mr. Hiss, I think, that I said "under
another name."
Mr. Hiss. Yes.
1150 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. NixOiSr. It has been established, in other words, that yon two
knew each other. Mr. Chambers said he knew yon as a Communist
and tliat it was in that connection that his acquaintanceship with j^ou
occurred, and he has indicated the circumstances of the acquaintance-
ship as he recalled them.
You, on the other hand, have indicated that yoiw acquaintanceship
with Mr. Chambers was with a man named Crosley, a man with whom
you had only a casual acquaintance, that he was not a friend in that
sense, that he was not what we would term even a guest in your house
at the time he stayed there, but it was a business relationship at most,
and that in the end Mr. Chambers had been a man who had failed to
pay' his debts and with whom you built up relations because of his
failure to pay his debts.
Now, just to get the record straight today as to those points on which
you are sure on your recollection of this conversation with Mr.
Chambers, I would like to go through four or live points to be sure
the record is straight.
We have your testimony of Monday and Tuesday which is pretty
clear on these points, but you have indicated today in the case of the
car that the testimony of Monday and Tuesday should not be accepted
at face value, that at least the interpretation i)laced on that testimony
would have to be changed in view of the facts that have been brought
to your attention.
Mr. Hiss. It should be accepted on the basis on which I gave it, as
my best recollection under the circumstances, without access to records.
'Mr. Nixon. You don't mean to say now that you are still insisting
that you transferred title of this car to Chambers in May of 1935 ?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, I am insisting that at all times I have testified
to this committee to the best of my then recollection. That is what I
am insisting.
Mr. Nixon. I see. Now, in regard to the lease on the apartment,
as you testified previously, it was at the going rate — that is, whatever
the apartment was to you.
I might say that the investigation of the committee has brought
forth the fact that the apartment at that time was leased to you at
$60 a month.
Mr. Hiss. My recollection was it was a moderate rental. I don't
remember.
Mr. Nixon. You testified in New York that it was somewhat less
than $75. Now, as we have indicated from the records, ^Ir. Chambers
could have been in the apartment from May 1 to June 21). That was
the point at which you had jurisdiction of the apartment.
From that, then, it would appear that Mr. Chambers owed you ap-
proximately $120 in rent at the conclusion of his tenancy in the apart-
ment.
Now, I do understand that you are testifying today that you did
lease the apartment to Chambers. There is no question about that.
Mr. Hiss, That is correct.
Mr. NixoN. And it was a financial transaction.
Mr. Hiss. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. And it was agreed he was to pay you for the apartment?
Mr. Hiss. That is correct. I have also testified, Mr. Nixon, that the
apartment did not seem to me then and does not seem to me now to have
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1151
been a very significant financial value on the market, on the market
at the time. I had some more time to go after I moved out there.
It was not a readily leaseable asset or readily disposable asset at the
time,
Mr. Nixox. My point is tliat Chambers owed you $120 approxi-
mately when he left the apartment.
iNIr. Hiss. My recollection is that the arrangement was at cost. I
wouldn't want "to say. though, that it hadn't been somewhat less than
cost, but I just don't recall.
Mr. Nixox. I see. Now. is it your recollection that previous to the
time when Mr. Chambers went into the apartment, JNIrs. Chambers.
Mr. Chambers, and their infant daughter visited you and your wife
in your house on P Street ?
Mr. Hiss. That is my recollection.
Mr. Nixon. Are you sure on that point or are you not sure ?
]Mr. Hiss. I am not sure of the exact time. That is my best recollec-
tion. It is hxed in mv recollection in connection with the subleasing
of the apartment.
Mr. Nixon. Could the visit have taken place after the lease on the
apartment expired?
Mr. Hiss. It could.
Mr. Nixon. You mean it is possible you might have had Chambers
and his wife and child in your house for several nights after he welshed
on the rent?
Mr. Hiss. I cannot recall any reason why that would have happened.
My recollection, as I have testified to already, is that it was in connec-
tion with his not having adequate furniture to move into the apart-
ment. I am not able to testify at this late date with absolute certainty
about where I was on the night of May something, 19o4 or 1935.
I have told you to the best of my recollection.
Mr. Nixon. Could it have occurred 6 months after the lease on the
apartment expired?
Mr. Hiss. I don't see how it could.
Mr. Nixon. Can you testify on that point?
Mr. Hiss. I will testify to the best of my recollection it could not.
I will testify to the best of my recollection it could not.
Mr. Nixon. Then as far as your answer to that question is con-
cerned, you think Mr. Chambers was in your house as a guest with his
wife for 2, 3, or 4 days^ as you testified, jjefore he went into the apart-
ment ?
jMr. Hiss. That is right, spring or early summer of 1935, if that is
the date.
Mr. Nixon. But you have indicated it might have been afterward?
Mr. Hiss. Might, only in the sense of a possibility. - I have no recol-
lection.
Mr. Nixon. But you don't want to indicate positively that it was
before ?
Mr. Hiss. It is my best recollection that it was before and was in
connection with the circumstances I have testified to.
Mr. Nixon. Now, is it your testimony Mr. Chambers told you his
furniture van was coming down and that is why he was waiting?
Mr. Hiss. That is my best recollection and that is why they couldn't
move into the apartment; something that he needed.
1152 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. Where was it coming from, do you recall ?
Mr. Hiss. My best recollection, as I think I have already testified, is
that I had the impression that Mr. Chambers, Crosley, came from New
York; that I had seen him three or four times; that he came to Wasli-
ington in order to get material and information for the articles he was
writing. He may have been living in Washington for all I Itnow
positively. I had the impression that he was coming from New York
and that he returned to New York after his business.
Mr. Nixon. Your recollection is the conversation Avas Mr. Chambers
Avas bringing down his furniture in the van for the 8-week period he
was subletting the apartment?
Mr. Hiss. My recollection is he told me he wanted to complete the
research he had been doing on the munitions case, that he wanted
to stay in Washington for quite a period, which further confirms my
recollection that he hadn't been living in Washington to my knowledge
before.
Mr. NixoN. He was bringing furniture for that 8-week period '.
Mr. Hiss. He was bringing his wife and child and I think he
was bringing some furniture, not complete because I left some furni-
ture behind.
"Mr. Nixon. Now, we have already touched upon the car and I think
it has been summarized, my statement is in the record and your state-
ment is in the record on that.
Do you have anything to add on the car?
Mr. Hiss. Not at this time, Mr. Nixon. I hope I will have some-
th'ing to add in the future.
Mr. NixoN. In any event, as far as 3^our testimony given in New
York is concerned, the answers which, as I indicated, were quite cate-
gorical on the nature of the transaction and the time of the transac-
tion, you now wish to qualify to the best of your recollection; is that
correct ?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, I would like to reply to that that the record
should speak for itself. My testimony then and my testimony
today
Mr. NixoN. The answers weren't qualified then, Mr. Hiss. Da you
want to qualify them now ? You have a right to.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, I thought that at all times I had qualified
my answers by saying I was testifying to the best of my recollection
without having had access to records.
Mr. Nixon. You are not yet prepared to saj' what kind of a trans-
action this was ?
Mr. Hiss. I have tried to indicate to the committee — and. the record
will show, Mr. Nixon — my best recollection of the nature of the trans-
action.
Mr. NixoN. But you are sure you gave Chambers a car for a period
of time?
Mr. Hiss. I am confident according to my best recollection I gave
him the use of the car for at least a period of time, as I gave him the
use of my apartment.
Mr. Nixon. How many times did you see Chambers before he went
into the apartment?
Mr. Hiss. I would estimate four or five. I am not confident at all
that I can tell the exact number.
Ml-. Nixon. Your testimony in New York was 10 or 11.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1153
Mr. Hiss. That is my recollection. If that is my testimony, that
is my recollection of how many times I saw the man altogether.
Mr. Nixon. Is your testimony now you have seen Chambers 10 or 11
times altogether^
Mr. Hiss. That would be my impression.
Mr. Nixon. I see. And that you only saw him four or five times
before he moved into the apartment.
Mr. Hiss. It could have been more than four or five times. It could
have been five or six, six or seven,
Mr. NixoN. Did you take him to lunch on any of those occasions ?
Mv. Hiss. I think I remember occasions when we went out to lunch
in the Senate Office Building while we were talking about the muni-
tions investigation.
Mr. NixoN. Were you always alone with him at those times ?
Mr. Hiss. I do not recall whether anyone else on the staff was with
me. I am doing my best to get in contact with former members of the
staff who may have known him at the same time I did.
Mr. NixoN. You know of no persons at the present time who were
with you at the time you had those luncheon engagements with him'.
Mr. Hiss. I have not found anybody.
Mr. NixoN. Nobody visited him at the time ISIr. and Mrs. Chambers
were at your house ?
Mr. Hiss. I have attempted also to check with my friends, any
friends who saw him go into the house when he was there.
Mr. Nixon. Now, in regard to the rental agreement, I should like
to refer you to the testimony of — and, Mr. Counsel, if you will get your
testimony out — concerning the matter of payment. On page 82 of the
testimony on Monday, the 16th. in the middle of the page — Mr. Coun-
sel, when you have it, you will let me know. • Page 82 : ^^
Mr. Nixon. Did lie pay any rent all the time lie was in your house?
Mr. Hiss. My recollection is he paid .$15 or $20, and he gave me a rug which
I have still got.
Now, the following day, 24 hours later, on page 15 of the testimony
on Tuesday
Mr. Davis. Just a minute, Mr. Nixon. What page is that ?
Mr. Nixon. Page 15, a little above the middle of the i^age.^''
Mr. Davis. Thank you.
Mr. Nixon (reading) :
Mr. Nixon. Did he ever pay any rent at all?
Mr. Hiss. My recollection is that he paid no cash, that he once -paid in liind.
Now, which is the true statement'^
Mr. Hiss. ISIr. Nixon, I think I have testified that my recollection
is that in addition to the apartment transaction I loaned Crosley, per-
haps, over a period of time as much as $20 or $25. Whether my recol-
lection is also that he paid some money, some nominal amount back to
me, never the full amount — whether I regarded whatever he may have
returned as paying the $15 or $20, 1 remember lending him, or for rent,
I would not recall, and I am not sure that he ever paid anything.
Mr. Nixon. Then your testimony today is
Mr. Hiss. If I testified that he paid something, that was my best-
recollection.
** p. 82 denotes original transcript. See p. 969, this publication.
^'P. 15 denotes original transcript. See p. 981, this publication.
CHjIAQ AQ AO
80408—48 — —42
1154 • COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nlson. Well, one day you- testified he paid nothing; the next
day you testified — I mean, tlie first day you testified that he paid $15 or
$20 and the next day you said nothing. Now, I want to know which
is which. ^
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, the main recollection is the fact that he
Mr. Nixox. Paid anything?
Mr. Hiss. And did liot pay in full ; and my recollection, as best as I
recall it now, is that I got nothing from the transactions I had had
with him. I would not want to take an absolute, positive oath that he
had never paid back a single cent. My recollection is I got nothing
except something in kind.
Mr. Nixon. Then, since Monday when you said, "My recollection
is that he paid $15 or $20," you wish to tell us now that he paid nothing ;
is that right ?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, if I testified on Monday, I did so to the best
of my recollection then. The record will have to show what it shows.
I do not have a definite present recollection of receiving anything from
Crosley.
Mr. Nixon. How many loans did you make to him ?
Mr. Hiss. Again, my recollection is that it was over a couple of
transactions, two or three. I think I recall letting him have $10 or so
at the time that he was moving into the apartment in connection with
expenses then.
Mr. Nixon. Was that the first loan you made to liim?
Mr. Hiss. I do not recall that. I may have let him have $5 or so on
nn occasion. I am sorry I do not recall that.
Mr. Nixon. When was the last loan you made to him?
Mr. Hiss. I do not recall the last date of the last loan.
Mr. Nixon. Did you make any loans to him after he moved out of the
apartment ?
Mr. Hiss. That, I da not recall. What I do recall is the succession
of favors requested and obtained, and the cumulative effect, and the
impression that this had better be put an end to.
Mr. Nixon. Well, did he make some loans after you moved out of
the apartment ?
Mr. Hiss. I am unable to testify with positiveness as to whether he
did or not.
Mr. Nixon. You might have?
Mr. Hiss. I am trying to go back to my old checks and records. If
I were to find a check as of, say, September, I certainly would accept it.
Mr. Nixon. At the end of the first month did you dun him for the
rent ?
Mr. Hiss. I do not recall, frankly, the nature of the dunning process.
I do recall making it plain to him that he owed me money, and was
not paying it, and I do recall his indicating that he was going to in
good time. When he marketed these articles, when he could do that,
and so on, he would pay me.
Mr. Nixon. You testified, Mr. Hiss, that on one occasion you gave
Mr. Chambers a ride to New York from Washington.
Mr. Hiss. I think I recall an occasion when I was going to New
York, aud when Mr. Crosley went along Avith me, either because I
mentioned that I was going, and he asked for the ride, or some other
reason.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1155
I have taken other people. I have picked up hitch-hikers, I have
frequently taken people on rides when I was driving from one. place
to another.
The CirAiRMAN. Will the gentleman yield to me ?
]\Ir. Nixon. Yes.
The CiiAiinrAX. Did anyone else go on that trip to New York?
Mv. Hiss. I am unable to recall. I have asked my wife whether she
went. I do not think she is clear in her own mind as to whether she
did or did not.
Mr. Nixox. Wliat car did you use?
]\Ir. Hiss. It would depend on the date; it would depend on the
car I had.
Mr. Nixon. AVell. if you used the Ford, it would have taken a long
time.
Mr. Hiss. If I used the Ford, it would have taken as long as a
model A Ford would take to get there.
Mr. Nixox. It would be about 9 or 10 hours.
Mr. Hiss. I do not recall how long it took a model A Ford to go
from Washington to New York.
Mr. Nixox. In any event, your testimony is that you spent any-
where from 7 to 10 hours, depending on the automobile, w^ith Mr.
Chambers, in a car.
Mr. Hiss. If we were in fact driving to New York together — if we,
in fact, drove to New York together, that is correct,
Mr. Nixox. Let me get this clear. Are you testifying that you did
go to New York with him or you did not go to New York with him?
]Mr. Hiss. "Sir. Nixon. I am testifying that I think I recall driving
him to New York. I am not testifying that I remember clearly that I
positively did. I have told the committee over and over again that
these were mattei-s of no consequence to me at the time they occurred.
That I have no fixed, vivid recollection of them.
Mr. Nixon. You are not sure that you took him to New York?
Mr. Hiss. I would not be prepared to sw^ear positively that I did.
The committee asked me if I ever had, and I said I might have.
Mr. Nixox. How many times did you see him after the rental agree-
ment was over ?
Mr. Hiss. I could not testify with certainty that I did see him at
all. I could not testify with certainty that I did, or if I did, just how
many times I did. I would be surprised if I saw him in all more than
10 or 11 times.
Mr. Nixon. As I read your testimony, Mr. Hiss, you said that you
might have staved overnight with him.
Mr. Hiss. With him ?
JNIr. NixoN. I am sorry — that he might have stayed overnight with
jou after the rental agreement expired.
Mr. Hiss. You asked me if it could have been possible, and my
recollection of my reply is that it could have been possible.
Mr. Nixon. What did you call Crosley?
Mr. Hiss. I think I just called him Crosley.
Mr. Nixon. You had known this man by that time about 9 months,
and you just called him Crosley?
Mr. Hiss. I would not be surprised if I called him George. News-
papermen have a way of themselves being quite informal, and of
1156 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
expecting informal treatment. I have known a number of news-
papermen not too intimately, who called me by my first name, and
whom I called by their first name rather quickly in our acquaintance.
Mr. Nixon. Then, as I understand from this testimony, the only
thing you are willing to testify for sure to is that you did let him have
your apartment, and that he did see you at the Nye committee; is that
i-ight ?
Mr. Hiss. Well, "is that the only thing," that is a rather hard ques-
tion to answer just that way. The record will show just exactly what
I have testified to, and what I have not, Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. The record will be very clear on that point.
Mr. Hiss. An attempted summation in a few Avords is difficult to do-
with exactness.
Mr. NixoN. What else are you sure of ? You are sure of the lease,,
you are sure of the Nye committee. What else are you sure of?
Mr. Hiss. I am sure that I let him have the use of the car. I am
reasonably sure.
Mr. Nixon. You do not know when, how, or why ?
Mr. Hiss. I think it must have been in connection Avith the lease
transaction.
Mr. Nixon. Even though you did not have two cars at that time ?
Mr. Hiss. During, before, or after. The question of what cars I
had available to me will certainly have a bearing upon my final deter-
mination of my own recollection. If I find that some friend lent me
a car during the summer, that will have a bearing. If I find that I
acquired another car earlier than the one that Mr. Stripling has
referred to, that will have a bearing.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss, how many times in the last 15 years have you
borrowed a car from a friend for the summer?
. Mr. Hiss. I would want to search mj^ recollection and the recollec-
tion of friends.
The Chairman. Well, the Chairman Avould like to intercede right
there.
Mr. Nixon. I have no more questions, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Vail.
Mr. Vail. In the interest of accuracy of the record, in connection
with my remarks a few minutes ago, I refreshed my memory by refer-
ence to the record, and I find that two of those boys sta^^ed at the home
of Lichtenstein, two of them at the home of a man named Hyde, and
the picture to which I refer was a picture of Karl Marx instead of Joe
Stalin. Thank you very much.
The Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Mundt. Mr. Hiss, you said that if you could find a check issued
to George Crosley in September, in the nature of a loan, that that
would help you very much, and it would certainly help this committee-
very much.
Mr. Hiss. Yes, Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Mundt. You made a series of loans to this Mr. Crosley, Mr..
Hiss. Did you ever make a loan to him by check?
Mr. Hiss. I do not recall, and one of the reasons I am trying to get
my old checks and stubs is to find out.
Mr. Mundt. You think you might have given him one by check ?
Mr. Hiss. I might have.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1157
Mr. MuNDT. Now, Mr. Hiss, those hearings are drawing to a close,
unci I want to review with von briefly, as briefly as I can, the reactions
of just one member of this committee to the testimony in which yon
are involved, and after I conclude my statement, which I shall make
without interruption, you then make'the statements that you have to
make without interruption. But I wish you w^ould take notes on what
I am going to say so that you can correct me in your statement where
you think I am in error, or where you set my trend of thinking right,
where you think it is deviating from a logical course.
W'a started out in these hearings simply to get at the truth concern-
ing espionage activities in Government. One of our early witnesses,
Mr. Whittaker Chambers, mentions your name and the name of your
brother, Donald Hiss, in connection with other individuals, most of
whom have refused under oath to deny the charges or to deny the
fact that they are members of the Communist Party.
You suggested when you first came before the comn.iittee that in
An effort to get at the facts that we take certain steps, one of which
was to go to the records, wherever the records are available. We
have done that, and we have spread those records wherever available
into this testimony.
You suggested that you be confronted with your accuser. We have
done that, both in executive session und in open session.
You susjiested that we check all the verifiable details, which we
liave done.
Your testimony that first day was that, to the best of your recollec-
tion, you did not know Whittaker Chambers, and that the picture
which was presented to you by counsel, Mr. Stripling, did not bring
back the memory of anybody whom you had seen by that picture.
The next step in this proceeding was. and I might say here that
you made a very fine impression on me. as acting chairman, that first
day. I was inclined to be in your corner from the standpoint of ac-
<.'epting the validity of what you said. You were given every con-
sideration by the committee and not cross-examined very clearly or
■carefully by the committee on that first day, and that, despite the
fact, that as a member of the House Connnittee on Foreign Affairs,
J had frequently heard the name of Alger Hiss bandied around as hav-
ing possible Communist connections in years past. I never had seen
you; I never had met you; I do not believe your name had ever passed
my lips or had been Avritten by me in any correspondence up to that
time. But it was, as you have later testified, rather common scuttle-
but, should we say, around Washington that one Alger Hiss had been
labeled by some as a fellow traveler or Communist. The most recent
indication of that is a statement in the morning paper, by George E.
Sokolsk3\ I will read you just two paragraphs from his column,
These Days. It says :
Way back in 1941 I came across the existence of the Ware group-
that is the Harold Ware whom you testified that you knew —
the Ware group in Washington, who were engaged in placing Communists in
the most critical positions in the Federal Government. I was then told who
the original 10 were, and among them was mentioned Alger Hiss.
In spite of that, after hearing your testimony, I was convinced that
either Whittaker Chambers must have been falsifying before this
committee or else there was a mistaken identity.
1158 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
So, I asked a subcommittee to go to New York for tlie purpose of
interviewing Mr. Chambers to see whether, b}^ some clianee, he had
confused Alger Hiss with someone else, whether or not he could sub-
stantiate his statement that he knew Alger Hiss. and. if so, how well,
and what details he could supply, which are verifiable. He supplied
a great many details, all of which are in the executive testimony, which
has been- released to the press today.
Then, you were again interviewed in Wasliington. and at that time
you verified these same details, which were given us by Mr. Chambers,
intimate details about your family, about your hobby, about your pets,
about the decorations in the room, and after verifying a number of
these details, you said. "I might have known a man who had access to
that information," and you said tliat man, if you knew him at all, was
one George Crosley.
The next day the committee went to New York Cit}^ and brought you
and Mr. Chambers together, at which time vou identified him posi-
tively; you identified him as the George Crosley, but you said then
that you sublet him your apartment. You said then that you gave
or sold him an automobile. You said then that 3^011 had him living
with you several days in your own home. You said then that you had
also seen him at sometime later than the time when he occupied your
apartment, and you said then that you had made a series of small
loans.
We have tried since then to verify further the testimony of both
yourself and Mr. Chambers. We ha^e been unable to find anybody
who knows or who has seen George Crosley. You have been unable
to ])roduce anybody for us who knows or has seen George Crosley.
Therefore, in summary, it Avould seem to me that you have left nie,
as one member of the committee, in this position — and I came back
from South Dakota by air to get at the facts of this case, because, as
I say, when you first appeared before the connnittee, you left me with
the feeling that you were telling the truth and that you were not con-
cealino; or evadino- information which we needed to have in this com-
mittee.
Now, I find that while you said earlier that you did not know Mr.
Whittaker Chambers or any man answering that description or looking
like him, it is now established testimony that you did know him and
that you do know him.
There is some doubt about the name, but there is no question about
your having known the individual, and I find that while you said in
the testimony that you were sure anybody who could have lived in
your house over a period of time would be somebody whose picture
you would be able to identify, but I find that you were unable to
identify from the picture, although you now testify that this man did
live in your home over a period of days.
You said that you gave Chambers your car. that you sold or traded
it to him, and now the written records show that you signed a transfer
of your car to the Cherner Motor Co. or else to one William T. Rosen.
You testified that you had given money to Crosley in the nature of
a loan. He testified that he had received money from you in the
nature of payment of Communist dues. The points in agreement, as
they looked to me, are these :
You knew this man; you knew him very well. You knew him so
well that you even trusted him with your apartment : you let him
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1159
use your furniture ; you let him use or gave him 3'our automobile. Yoif
think tliat you probably took him to New York. You bought him
lunclies in the Senate Restaurant. You had him staying in your
home Avhen it was inconvenient for liim to stay in the apartment,
and made him a series of small loans. There seems no question about
that.
In other words, there seems no question about your associations with
a man who told this committee that he associated with you.
The points in disagreement, as I see them, are these :
Were you or were you not a Communist. This committee never
had any illusions that we would be able to prove definitely whether
or not you are a Communist because, in dealing with people charged
with being Communists over a period of years, we have found that
those who are guilty, refused to admit it and dodged the question, or
deliberately lied.
We know that we cannot get the records of the Communist Party.
We cannot get their membership cards, but that was a point we could
not hope to establish by verifiable evidence, and it is now a point in
dispute.
'the second point in dispute is that were you a member of the so-
called Ware group who are alleged to have worked together to promote
their associates into key positions of Government. You say you were
not. Mr. Chambers says that you were. Mv. Chambers said that you
were and that you were associated in this activity with John Abt,
Lee Pressman, Nathan Witt, Henry Collins. Harold Ware, and Charles
Kramer. You admit that you knew John Abt, Lee Pressman, Nathan
Witt. Henry Collins. Harold Ware, and Charles Kramer, but you did
not know whether or not they were Communists and that whether
or not they were, that you were not associated with them in an effort
to promote your associates into key Government positions.
There is one other point in dispute, and that is while you both
admit this association at the time when it was supposed to have taken
place, Mr. Chambers said that you knew him as Carl, and you say
that you knew him as Crosley. To me, that is not a very important
distinction. The important thing is how close your associations were
with this man, who is admittedly a Communist at that time.
He is a Communist functionary. Whether he was living in your
home as George Crosley or Carl or Whittaker Chambers is compara-
tively immaterial. The important thing to me, Mr. Hiss, is that he
was living in your home, that you were associating with him, that
you were taking him out in the car, that you were letting him use
your car, that you were letting him use your apartment, and making
him loans and having associations with him of that nature.
In an endeavor to determine the credibility of two witnesses whose
testimony conflicts on so many of these points, which are still in dis-
pute, we endeavored to establish that Ijy checking, first, ]Mr. Cham-
bers' testimony to see whether or not it would stand up. to see whether
or not you were an ornithologist, to see whether or not you had a car
which had a hand windshield wiper, to see whether or not he had this
rather intimate association with you. which the testimony of both of
you now conclusively proves did exist.
We also endeavored to check the fact as to whether he lived in your
home or spent time in your home, as he said he did. Now, both of you
testify to the fact that that actually took place.
1160 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
We endeavored to verify other aspects of his testimony, about trans-
fers that your son made in school, about certain intimate details of the
furniture and material in your home, and on every point on which
we have been able to verify, on which we have had verifiable evidence
before us, the testimony of Mr. Chambers has stood up. It stands
unchallenged. Most of it you admit, although you place under-
standably a different interpretation upon it from what he has.
You, on the other hand, have also supplied some verifiable data.
You have talked about an automobile ; you have talked about these
pictures of identification; you have described the conditions under
which he occupied your home; but in the matter of the car your testi-
mony is clearly refuted by the tangible evidence of the sales slips from
the Cherner Motor Co., by the registration material.
On some of the other items your testimony is clouded by a strangely
deficient memory. You can recall vividly certain very specific de-
tails, but you cannot recall at all whether this automobile that meant
so much to you was ever given to Crosley and returned to you, whether
you sold it to him, or what the eventual disposition of this car was;
and that car plays a very important part, as does the subletting of the
apartment in the whole testimony, because in testing the credibility of
3^our testimony and that of Mr. Chambers we have to rely on those
pieces of evidence which are verifiable, and those happen to be verifiable
ones.
We proceed on the conclusion that if either one of you is telling the
truth on the verifiable data, that you are telling the truth on all of it.
And if either one of you is concealing the truth from the committee on
verifiable data, it points out that you are concealing from us the truth
on obviously the points that we cannot prove.
I wanted you to have that reaction, 5lr. Hiss, from one member of
the committee who, as I say, came in cold, with no predisposition as to
your conduct or reputation whatsoever: who, after you first testified,
Avas very frankly inclined to accept it at its face value.
I saicl something to that effect in the written testimony. I gave a
statement to the press.
Now, I have set before you the mental processes of one member of the
connnittee, which I wanted you to have before you make your state-
ment, and I will be glad to have you refute them in detail, or challenge
them or correct them in any way you see fit.
The Chairman. Now, Mr. Hiss, you have heard Mr. Mundt. You
may have all the time you will require to answer Mr. ISIundt. You
may read your statement at this time, and just take as much time as
3'ou want.
(At this point, Mr. Hiss attempts to consult with Mr. Davis.)
]\Ir. Mundt. No; I want j\Ir. Hiss to talk now, and you may talk
later. I want Mr. Hiss to talk now.
Mr. Hiss. Commenting on Mr. Mundt's so-called summation, 1
would like to point out that the man who calls himself Chambers has,
by his own testimony, been peddling to various Government agencies
for 10 years or so stories about me.
During that time he has had an opportunity to check on all sorts
of details about my personality.
You referred to my interest in ornithology. I am only an amateur
ornithologist, but that fact, that is one of my hobbies, appears in
Who's Who.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE llGl
I have h;ul no chance to see Chambers' testimony, which you have
characterized as standing up in A^erifiable details.
' I am very anxious to see that testimony to see how verifiable they are.
From tli'e questions asked me on the "iGth, I got the impression that
he had testified also from some newspaper reports, that I had trans-
ferred my stepson from one school to another in order to save money,
which I could donate to the Communist Party.
Tlie facts are. the personal facts are, that my stepson's educational
expenses were paid by his own father. I could not possibly have
saved any money by sending him to any cheaper school. At no time
did I transfer him from one school to another for any purpose, except
to benefit his education.
As a matter of fact, while he was in Washington, he went, after
only 1 year at the Friends School, to another more expensive school,
and, when I concluded that he shoidd go to a boarding school, his own
father was not then in a position to meet the full expenses and I paid
part of the expenses.
I am anxious to examine other points. I may be erroneously in-
formed as to what he has testified about on this particular point.
I notice that the committee did not ask me questions about my step-
son's education today, only about certain other points.
You referred to the fact that I, since Monday, when the name of
Crosley first came to me in con.nection with these hearings, as possibly
being involved, have not produced witnesses who are able to say that
they, too, knew him as Crosley. I shall do my very best to produce
such witnesses.
The time has been very short. If this man actually was a Commu-
nist at the time, as he testifies — and, so far as I know, you have only his
unsupported testimony for that particular allegation — it is not sur-
prising that that is true, that he was secretive. It is not surprising
that it is difficult to get information about him.
I have four.d it very diffi-cult, with my resources, to get information
about him, even during the past 10 years, when he has been, I under-
stand, a member of the staff of Time magazine.
I would want to read Mr. Mundt's summation carefully against the
record. I do not. for a minute, want to make this impromptu re-
sponse to what Mr. Mundt has said my final answer to Mr. ISIundt.
I would appreciate, if I could now read into the record, as I under-
stood the chairman permitted me to, the letter which I sent to the
chairman yesterday, and which is not now a part of the record.
The Chairman. Just a minute. Everybody is trying to talk to me
here at the same time. What is it now that you want, Mr. Hiss?
Mr. TIiss. I understood that you were going to give me permission
I asked for at the beginning of this session to read into the record the
letter which I sent you yesterday, and some additional points.
The CiiAiKMAx. That is perfectly all right. Go ahead.
Mr, Davis. Mr. Chairman, may I
Mr. Mundt. I object, ISIr. Chairman. I want Mr. Hiss to finish his
statement without any interruption by counsel. You may speak
afterward.
The Chair:m:an. Just a minute. Now, counsel has asked to bring up
a point, and what is it you want to ask ?
Mr. Davis. I want to make a reference to the record in connection
with the statement that mav have been made. I do not wish to do more
1162 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
than — I will do no more than read what is in the record or make the
reference. I would rather read it so that the significance will be
brought out.
The Chairman. It is agreeable with Mr. Hiss that you read that
first, and then you make your statement later?
JVlr. Hiss. I do not know the points he is going to make, but I will
be glad to have him go ahead.
Mr. MuNDT. With that understanding, I will promise him no inter-
ruption.
The Chairman. Just go ahead, Mr. Hiss, and read your letter, and
you wait, Mr. Counsel, until he gets through.
Mr. Hiss. We are doing this at your choice. I do not know what
you prefer.
The Chairman. You wanted to get started, and everybody was
getting in your way. Go ahead.
Mr. Hiss. The letter which I sent to the chairman yesterday after-
noon is as follows :
Tomorrow —
that is now today —
will mark my fourth appearance before your committee. I urge, in advance of
that hearing, that your committee delay no longer in penetrating to the bed-
rock of tlie facts relevant to the charge which you have publicized — that I am
or have been a Communist.
This charge goes beyond the personal. Attempts will be made to use it, and
the resulting publicity, to discredit recent great achievements of this country
in which I was privileged to participate.
Certain members of your conmiittee have already demonstrated that this use
of your hearings and the ensuing pulilicity is not a mere possibility, it is a
reality. Your acting chairman, Mr. Mundt, himself, was trigger quick to cast
such discredit.
Although he now" says that he was very favorably impressed with
my testimony.
Bf'fore I had a chance to testify, even before the press bad a chance to reach
me for comment —
after Chambers' testimony —
before you had —
so far as I am aware —
sought one single fact to support the charge made by a self-confessed liar,
spy, atid traitor, your acting chairman pronounced judgment that I am guilty
as charged, by stating that the country should beware of the peace work with
which I have been connected.
I urge that these committee members —
3'our committee members —
abandon such verdict-first-and-testimony-later tactics, along with dramatic con-
frontations in secret sessions, and get down to business.
First, my record should be explored. It is inconceivable that tliere could have
been on my part, during I'l years or more in public office, serving all three branches
of the Govornnient, judicial, legislative, and executive, any departure from the
highest rectitude without its being known. It is inconceivable that the men with
whom I was intimately associated during those 1.5 years should not know my true
character far better than this accuser. It is inconceivable that if I had not been
of the highest character, this wcmld not have manifested itself at some time or
other, in at least one of the innumerable actions I took as a high official, actions
publicly recorded in the greatest detail.
During the period cited by this accuser, I was chief counsel to the Senate
Committee Investigating the Munitions Industry, at a great many public hear-
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1163
ings. fully reported in volumes to be found in libraries in every major American
■city. Duriiiji" my term of service under the Solicitor General of the United
States. I participated in the preparation of oriefs on a great many of the largest
issues affecting the United States. Those briefs are on public tile in the United
States Supreme Tourt, in the Department of .Justice, and in law libraries in vari-
ous American cities.
As an official of the Department of State, I was appointed secretary general,
the top administrative officer, of tlie peace-building international assembly that
created the United Nations. My actions in that post are a matter of detailed
public record. The same is true of my actions at other peace-building and peace-
,v;trengtlHMiing international meetings in which I participated — at Dumbarton
Oaks and elsewhere in this country, at Malta, at Yalta, at London, and in other
foreign cities. All my actions in the executive branch of the Govei-nment, includ-
ing my work in the Agricultural Adjustment Administration on farm pi-oblems,
are fully recorded in the public records.
In all tliis work I was frequently, and for extensive periods, under the eye
'of the American press and of the statesmen under whom or in association with
wliom I worked. They saw my every gesture, my every movement, my every facial
expression. They heard the tones in which I spoke, the words I uttered, the
words spoken by others in my presence. They knew my every act relating to
oflicial business, both in public and in executive conference.
Here is a list of the living personages of recognized stature under whom or
in association with whom I worked in the Government (there may be omissions
Avhich I should like to supply in a supplemental ILst) :
1. Men now in the United States Senate:
Senator Tom Connally, one of the United States delegates to the San Francisco
Conference which created the United Naitons, and to the first meeting- of tlie
•General A.ssenibly of the United Nations in London —
"where I was present.
Senator Arthur Vandenberg, a member of the Senate Committee Investigating
the Munitions Industry —
under whom I served —
and a member of the San Francisco Conference and London General Assembly
•delegations.
Next-
Men now in the House of Representatives :
Representative Sol Bloom, a member of both the San Francisco and the London
delegations.
Representative Charles Eaton, also a member of both the San Francisco and
the London delegations, although his health kept him from making the trip to
London.
Next-
Former Secretaries of State :
Cordell Hull, Edward Stettinius, James Byrnes.
Former Under Secretaries of State —
v.nder whom I served —
Joseph Grew, also a member of the Dumbarton Oaks delegation, Dean Acheson,
and William Clayton.
United States judges :
Stanley Reed, Associate Justice now of the United States Supreme Court, who
as Solicitor General was my immediate superior during my service in the Depart-
ment of Justice.
Homer Bone, former Senator from Washington, who was also a member of the
^Munitions Committee.
Bennett Clark, a former Senator who was a member of the Munitions Committee.
Jerome Frank who as general counsel of the Agricultural Adjustment AdminLs-
ttration Avas my immediate chief in the Department of Agriculture.
Men formerly in Congress :
Former United States Senator Gerald Nye, chairman of the Munitions Com-
mittee, who appointed me as the chief attorney of tliat committee.
Foi'mer United States Senator James Pope, who was a memb;n- of the Munitions
^Committee, and who is now, I believe, a director of TVA.
1164 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Former United States Senator John Townsentl, a member of the London
delegation.
Otliers at international conferences where I assisted their labors to build the
peace :
Isaiah Bowman, member of Dumbarton Oaks delegation, president of Johns
Hopkins University.
John Foster Dulles, a chief adviser of the San Francisco delegation, and a
member of each delegation to the meetings of the General Assembly.
Lt. Gen. Stanley Embick, a member of the Dumbarton Oaks delegation.
Cliarles Fahy, former legal adviser of the Department of State and member
of the United States delegation to the General Assembly.
Gen. Muir Faircliild of tlie Air Corps, a member of tlie Dumbarton Oaks
delegation.
Henry Fletcher, former Assistant Secretary of State, and member of the Dum-
barton Oaks delegation.
Green Hackworth, former legal adviser of the D?partment of State and a
member of the Dumbarton Oaks delegation, now a judge of tlie International
Court of Justice at The Hague.
Admiral Arthur Hepburn, member of the United States delegation at Dumbarton
Oaks.
Stanley Hornbeck, a member of the Dumbarton Oaks delegation, later our Am-
bassador to The Hague, and earlier, as chief far-eastern expert of the Department
of State, mv immediate superior from the fall of VXi'J until the early winter of
1944.
Dreckenridge Long, former Assistant Secretary of State, and a member of the
Dumbarton Oaks delegation.
I\Irs. Eleanor Roosevelt, a member of the S:in Francisco delegation and also of
each United States delegation to the meetings of the General Assembly.
I am not sure that my memoiy is correct as to Mrs, Roosevelt's par-
ticipation in San Francisco.
The Chairman. I should imagine so.
Mr. Hiss (continuing) :
Harold Stassen, a member of the United States delegation to the San Fran-
cisco Conference.
Rear Adm. Harold Train, member of the Dumbarton Oaks delegation.
Frank Walker, former Postmaster General and meml)er of tlie delegation to
tlie London meeting of tlie General Assembly.
Edwin Wilson, my predecessor as director of the office for United Nations
Affairs and my last immediate superior in the Department of State who was also
a member of tlie Dumbarton Oaks delegation, now our Ambassador at Ankara.
Other superiors to whom I reported :
Chester Davis, Administi-ator of the Agricultural Adjustment Administration
when I was there, and now president of the Federal Reserve Baid^ of St. Louis.
Francis Sa.vre, my first direct supervisor In the Department of State, fornier
Assistant Secretary of State and United States High Commissioner to the Philip-
pines, now United States representative to the Tru.steeship Council of the United
Nations and member of the United States delegation to the General Assembly.
These are the men whom I was honored to help in carrying out the finest and
deepest American traditions. That is my record. I. too, have had a not insignifi-
cant role in that magnificent achievements of our Nation In recent times.
These men I have listed are the men with whom and under whom I worked
intimately during my 15 years in Government service — the men best able to
testify concerning the lc)yalty with which I performed the duties assigned me.
All are persons of unimpeachable character, in a position to know my work from
day to day and hour to hour through many years. Ask them if they ever found
in me anything except the highest adherence to duty and honor.
Then the committee can judge, and the public can judge, whether to believe
a self-discredited accuser whose names and aliases are as numerous and as casual
as his accusations.
The other side of this question is the reliability of the allegations before tins
committee, the imdocumented statements of the man who now calls himself
Whittaker Chambers.
Is he a man of consistent reliability, truthfulness, and honor? Clearly not.
He admits it, and the committee knows it. Indeed, is he a man of sanity?
Getting the facts about Whittaker Chambers, if that is his name, will not be
easy. My own counsel have made inquiries in the past few days and have learned
COMMUXIST ESPIOXAGE 1165
that his (.'areer is not, like those of normal men, an open hook. Ilis operations
have been furtive and concealed. Why? What does he have to hide?
I am glad to help tiet the facts.
At this point I should like to repeat .suggestions made by me at preceding hear-
ings with respect to the most effective method of getting facts so far as I can
supply them. The suggestions I made, beginning with the very first time I
appealed before your committee, were not then accepted, and the result has only
been confusion and delay. Let me illustrate by recalling, to your minds what I
said when you asked me to identify the accuser, not by producing him under your
subpena power lint by producing only a newspaper photograph taken many years
after the time when, by his own statements, I had last seen him. I said to yon
on the occasion on my first appearance :
"I would much rather see the individual — I would not want to take oath that
I have never seen that man. I would like to see him, and I would be better able
to tell whether I had ever seen him. Is he here today — I hoped he would be."
Let me add one further example of how the procedures followed have caused
confusion and delay. In your secret sessions you asked me housekeeping and
nrnor details of years ago that few if any busy men would possibly retain in their
memories with accuracy. I told you, and one of your own members acknowl-
edged, that you or I should consult the records. I warned you that I had not
checkt^d theiii and that I doubted if I could be helpful under those circumstances.
I am having a check made of the records, and will furnish the results to you.
One personal word. My action in being kind to Crosley years ago was one of
humaneness, with results which surely some mendiers of the committee have
experienced. You do a iavor for a man, he comes for another, he gets a third
favor from you. When you finally realize he is an inveterate repeater, you get
rid of him. ' If your loss is only a loss of time and money, you are lucky. You
may find yourself calumniated in a degree depending on whether the man is
inibalanced or worse.
Now, I would like this committee to ask these questions on my behalf
of the man who calls himself Wliittaker Chambers, and I would like
these to be part of the statement which the committee has authorized
me to make.
Mr. Stripling. Just a moment.
^Ir. Hiss. Where does he reside now ?
The Chairman. Just a minute.
Mr. Stripling. I notice that counsel is passing out these questions
to the press.
Mr. Daos. I will let you have these.
Mr. Hiss. ''"Where do you reside ?'' I would like that question asked
of Whittaker Chambers.
The Chairman. All right . proceed. The meeting will come to
order. Everyone will please take his seat.
Mr. Hiss. Before reading these questions, I Mould also like to
repeat in public what I said on the occasion of the executive session
in New York, where I
The Chairiman. Just a minute. Will you please take your seats ?
Mr. Hiss. I would like to repeat in public, and in public session,
what I said in New York at the executive session, where Chambers
was present, and I said it in his presence. I challenge him to make
the statements about me with respect to communism in public that
he has made under privilege to this committee.
The questions that I would like this committee on my behalf to ask
him — man}- questions have been asked of me, and I do not know what
questions ha^-e been asked of him — I would like you to ask him where
he now resides and I would like to know the answer. I have not been
able to find out even where he lives at the present time. Shall I go on
with the questions?
Mr. MuNDT. Oh. 5'es ; go ahead.
1166 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Hiss. I would ask that you ask him to list the various places
where he has lived since 1930, indicating the length of time he has
lived at each place, and the name he has used at each place. As far
as I am concerned, that is all a matter of the record of the committee
as to where I have lived, and the name I have used.
Next, what name was he given when he was born? What names
has he used at any time since his birth for any purpose ?
Ask him to give his complete employment record during his mem-
bership in the Communist Party, since his resignation from the Com-
munist Party, stating the name of each employer, stating his occupa-
tion, and his compensation, also the name by which he was employed
in each instance.
I would like him to give a complete bibliography of all his writings.
He says that he was a writer. Give the writings under any and every
name he has used.
I would like him to be asked whether he has ever been charged or
convicted of any crime.
I would like him to give the full particulars, if so, as to Avhere. when,
and for what.
I would like him to be asked whether he has ever been treated for
a mental illness.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Chairman, may I interrupt there to tell Mr. Hiss
that at least one question has been asked Mr. Chambers, No. 7. I
asked him in New York whether he had ever been treated for any
mental illness, whether he was ever in a mental institution or not, and
he replied in the negative, and added also he was not an alcoholic.
So, you can strike that. That Avas asked already.
Mr. Hiss. Was that the extent of the committeee's inquiry into that
subject ?
Mr. Hebekt. The coimnittee's inquiry into that was because a typical
Communist smear is : When a man gets up to testify, and particularly a
former Connnunist, is to say he is insane or an alcoholic or something-
else is vrrong with him.
Immediately after Mr. Chambers testified before this committee,,
the committee heard reverberations already of the fact that he was
a mental case; in fact, it said it came from Time magazine by his
own associates, so I have always believed the only way to find out
anything to start off with is to ask the individual involved, and I asked
Mr. Chambers a direct question. "Mr. Chambers, were you ever in a
mental institution or treated for any mental disease?" I wanted to
know, and I wanted to ask him, and then check back from there.
The Chairman. I might say
]\Ir. Hebert. I asked him, and he denied it, and said, "No," and also
added to that that he was not an alcoholic, w^liich was another charge
that was made against him.
I may say to you now, Mr. Hiss, that I do not accept Mr. Chambers'
word on his own statement. I intend to check that, too.
Mr. Hiss. So do I.
The Chairman. I might say, Mr. Hiss, and also to the members
of the committee, that Mr. Chambers will take the stand directly after
you finish on the stand today.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1167
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss, excuse me, do you have any evidence that you
would like to present at this time that Mr. Chambers has been in a
mental institution? You made the charge that he has been.
Mr. Hiss. I have made no such charge.
Mr. Nixon. The charge has appeared in the newspapers.
Mr. Hiss. Not from me. I have made no such charge.
Mr. Nixon. Then, you do not mean that by your statement ?
Mr. Hiss. I mean that I am making no charges. 1 am seeking
information.
Mr. Nixon. The charge appeared yesterday from your letter, as
3^ou recall — the suggestion of Mr. Chambers being a mental case. Now,
do you have any evidence to present to the committee that he is?
Mr. Hiss. I have made no such charge. I just read the record here —
the letter into the record. I asked the question, "Is he a man of
sanity?"
Mr. Nixon. Will you answer the question as to whether you have
any evidence of his having been in a mental institution ?
Mr. Hiss. I have had various reports made to me to the eifect that
he has been.
Mr. Nixon. What reports have you had?
Mr. Hiss. I have, had reports made by individuals.
Mr. Nixon. What individuals?
Mr. Hiss. They are so far only hearsay.
The reports that came to me were from individuals, indivicUial mem-
bers of the press, so far, that they had heard rumors to that eifect.
Mr. Nixon. What members of the press?
Mr. Davis. Mr. Mundt. can he finish his statement?
I understood we were not to be interrupted. Let them take notes
and then ask the questions after he finishes.
The CiiAiioiAN. All right, go aliead and finish the questions.
Mr. Hiss. I would like the committee to ask him if he has ever been
treated for mental illness, where, and when, and by whom.
I would like him to be asked where, when, and to whom he has been
married. Hov/ many children he has ; wliere does his wife now reside.
I would like him to be asked to describe the circumstances under
which he came in contact with this connnittee and to make public all
written memoranda which he may have handed to any representative
of the committee.
I would like to know whether he is willing, as I said at the outset of
these questions, to make before this committee, in a manner free from
the protections of this committee, the statements so that I may test his
veracity in a suit for slander or libel.
The Chairman. Now, does any member of the committee have any
questions to ask Mr. Hiss over the statement he made or in relation to
these questions he wants the committee to ask?
Mr. Herert. I would like to, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Hebert.
Mr. Hebert. With this impromptu rebuttal of Mr. Mundt's state-
ment, there were just three facts or three statements which he made
which I think merit attention. One was the reference to his stepson's
father paying for the boj^'s education.
1168 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
It is interesting to note that Mr. Chambers told us that himself in
the conference in NeAv York. He told us that your stepson's education
-was paid for by the boy's father.
Mr. Hiss. I do not know what Mr. Chambers said.
Mr. Hebert. I know ; I know you don't. You will find out a lot that
he said before these hearings are over, indicating that the man did
know you at a time when you denied ever having known the man.
We were trying to find out whether he knew you. That was a very
intimate thing, that only a man who knew you could testify.
Mr. Hiss. Unless he was checking very carefully on me in the last
10 years.
Mr. Hebert. That is cori-ect ; unless he was checking on you in the
last 10 years. That is the one thing I have not resolved in my own
mind. What motive could the num have to go into such detail as to
know all about your private life and to come before this committee and
tell us these things? That is the unsolved riddle, as far as I am
concerned at this time.
This man was confronted by us within 48 hours after you appeared,
and, as I told you in executive session last Monday, the committee
literally ran out of questions. He had no occasion to know, and he
had no indication at all of knowing, what we were going to ask him.
Jle did not have any indication at all as to what fields we would ex-
plore, and he unhesitatingly answered every question in the minutest
of details which, as Mr. Mundt has indicated, comes back and checks,
even down to the automobile sale.
Mr. Hiss. Who would remember — how would any man remember all
Ihose details about any other man after 14 years?
Mr. Hebert. Unless he knew him extremely well.
Mr. Hiss. Unless he was studying up on it.
Mr. Hebert. Unless he knew him extremely well. You made men-
tion here before that you are an ornithologist.
Mr. Hiss. Amateur.
Mr. Hebert. Amateur. And that information could be obtained in
Who's Who. Now, to ajiybody reading that or hearing that, why,
that is a very plausible statement.
Mr. Hiss. It is a factual statement.
Mr. Hebert. I am not saying it is not a factual statement, but the
implication that you leave, as I tried to indicate before, Mr. Hiss —
and we understand each other; you know we do — the implication that
you leave is, why, anybody could look in Who's Who and see that you
iire an ornithologist.
Mr. Hiss. That is certainly the case.
Mr. Hebert. But nobody could read in Who's Who that you found a
rare bird, which I will ask" Mr. McDowell to describe.
Mr. Stripling. A prothonotary warbler.
Mr. Herbert. A warbler, and the other day, in executive session,
we asked you about that particular bird, and you said, "Yes." Now,
that is not from Who's Who.
Mr. Hiss. I have told many, many people that I have seen a pro-
thonotary warbler, and I ani very,' very proud. If Mr. McDowell
has seen it, he has told very, very many people about it.
Mr. Hebert. Now, the question has been asked: "Do you recall
certain individuals with whom you Avere friendly?" I will recall
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1169
them from memory and ask you each question. Do you recall Henry
Collins well ?
Mr. Hiss. I have answered that I have known Henry Collins since
we were boys to^rether at a boys' camp in Maine.
Mr. Hebert. Do you know that Henry Collins is a Communist?
Mr. Hiss. I do not know that Henry Collins is a Communist. I do
not know that he is not a Communist.
Mr. Hebert. You do not know whether he is or is not a Communist ?
Mr. Hiss. No ; that is not the kind of thing I would know.
Mr. Hebert. Do you know John Abt ?
Mr. Hiss. I do know John Abt, and I have testified as to the cir-
cumstances under which I know and have known John Abt.
Mr. Hebert. Do you know John Abt as a Communist or not as a
Communist?
Mr. Hiss. I have never known John Abt as a Communist. I do
not know whether he is or not.
Mr. Hebert. Do you know Lee Pressman?
Mr. Hiss. I know Lee Pressman, and I have testified as to how and
when I knew Lee Pressman.
Mr. Hebert. Do you know whether or not he is a Communist?
Mr. Hiss. I do not know whether or not Lee Pressman is a Com-
munist.
Ml-. Hebert. Did you know Hirold Ware?
Mr. Hiss. I knew "Harold Ware only to tlie extent that I have tes-
tified to in my public testimony.
Mr. Hebert. Well. I will say this, that it is an established fact that
Harold Ware was a Communist when he was living.
Mr. Hiss. I knew Harold Ware to the extent I testified to in 1933
or 1945. It was not my practice then to ask people whom I met casu-
ally whether they were Communists.
Mr. Hebert. But you do not know whether any of these people
were Communists or not.
Mr. Hiss. I do not.
Mr. Hebert. And particular reference with regard to Henry Col-
lins who refused to testify here that it might incriminate himself.
Mr. Hiss. I have no reason for knowing what counsel advised Mr.
Collins to do with respect to his rights.
Mr. Hebert. Xow, the reason I ask those questions. ^Ir. Hiss, is to
bring you up to date on youf letter which you just read and recited a
long list of persons who would know you and know what you were
about, and know who a'ou are and what you are.
Mr. Hiss. That is right.
Mr. Hebert. And it was an imposing array of fine American peo-
ple. How would they know whether you are a Communist or not,
when you don't know about intimate people that you know, whether
they are communists or not ?
^ Mr. Hiss. Mr. Hebert, I did not cite their names on that issue. I
cited their names on my record, because I think my record is relevant
to this inquiry.
Mr. Hebert. You cited that list of names to leave the impression
that these people could testify that you are not a Communist?
80408 — 48 43
1170 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Hiss. I said, and I say now, that those people can testify as to
whether they noticed in my demeanor over sometimes prolonged
periods any indication of any departure from the highest rectitude.
Mr. Hebert. Well, none of these people could testify as to whether
or not you are a Communist, could they ?
Mr. Hiss. Have any of them testified ?
Mr. Hebert. I did not ask that.
Mr. Hiss. Whether I departed from rectitude, in their opinion?
Mr. Hebert. I asked you a question: Can any of them testify
whether or not you are or are not a Communist ?
Mr. Hiss. That is for them to say.
Mr. Hebert. Can they testify? You have injected their names
in the hearing. I did not.
Mr. Hiss. I did not cite them for that purpose, to you, Mr. Hebert.
If you wish to ask them that question, that is your privilege. If you
do not wish to ask them, I shall attempt to obtain affidavits from
them for the committee's information.
Mr. Hebert. Well, their testimony would not be worth any more
than 3"our testimony will be against Ware, Collins, Abt, Pressman.
Mr. Hiss. That is your opinion. I have told you why I think their
testimony as to my character would be relevant.
Mr. Hebert. But they could not testify whether or not you are a
Communist.
Mr. Hiss. That is up to them, Mr. Hebert.
Mr. Hebert. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Vail.
INIr. Vail. No questions.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDowell. I have no questions and no objections to these ques-
tions that he wants us to ask Mr. Chambers with the single exception
of No. 10, which I consider to be none of the committee's business,
nor pertinent to this inquiry.
The Chairman. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss, when did you last see Crosley ?
Mr. Hiss. Are you talking about that individual there?
Mr. Nixon. I am talking to you, and I am asking when did you
last see Crosley.
Mr. Hiss. The man I knew as Crosley, I see over there now. What
do you mean ?
Mr. Nixon. Now, Mr. Hiss, I realize that you are trying to be
facetious. It is a serious question. I am attempting to find out the
terminal date on your acquaintanceship with Mr. Crosley. Now,
when did you last see him during the thirties?
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, I have testified repeatedly that to the best
of my recollection I think I must have last seen him sometime in 1935.
Mr. Nixon. In the fall of 1935 ?
Mr. Hiss. Whether it would be the fall or the summer, I am not
absolutely confident of my recollection.
Mr. Nixon. Did you see him in 1936 ?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my recollection, Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Can you say positively that you did not see Crosley in
1936?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1171
Mr. Hiss. It would be very difficult for me to say positively that I
had not seen anybody in 1936, Mr. Nixon. I do not believe I saw
Crosley in 1936.
Mr. Nixon. But you are leaving open the possibility that you might
have seen Crosley in 1936, do I understand you correctly?
Mr. Hiss. I think you understand me correctly.
Mr. Nixon. Now, how about 1937 ? Did you see Crosley in 1937 ?
Mr. Hiss. Not to the best of my recollection, and I would be confi-
dent that I did not. I would be absolutely confident that I did not see
him at anytime under the circumstances he has testified to.
Mr. Nixon. My question is : Are you positive you did not see Crosley
in 1937?
Mr. Hiss. I am reasonably positive that I did not see or lay eyes on
Crosley in 1937.
Mr. "Nixon. Will you testify to the effect that you did not see him
in 1937?
Mr. Hiss. I'll testify that to the best of my knowledge and recollec-
tion I did not.
Mr. Nixon. Then, you are leaving the implication that it is possible
that you could have seen him in 1937.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, it seems to me I must leave that implication.
I cannot be sure that I did not see anybody
Mr. Nixon. Did you see Crosley in 1938 ?
Mr. Hiss. I would like to reply exactly the same way to that. I feel
confident I did not.
Mr. Nixon. But it is-possible that you might have?
Mr. Hiss. It is certainly conceivable and possible.
]Mr. Nixon. Now, the committee is going into a matter verj^ care-
fully with various witnesses which bears on the next question that I
want to ask you, and I want you to pay particular attention to this
question. Have you ever seen George Crosley, Whittaker Chambers,
or Carl, or Crosley under any other name in the apartment of Henry
Collins?
Mr. Hiss. To the best of my recollection, I am confident I have not.
There is no reason why I should have. I have no recollection what-
soever of ever seeing Croslej^ except under the circumstances I have
testified to.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss, you mean to tell me you are leaving open the
possibility that you could have seen Crosley in the apartment of
Henry Collins?
Mr. Hiss. I would not wish to leave that open as anything other
than a physical possibility in the sense of what are infinite possibilities.
I am confident that I have never seen Crosley in the apartment of
Henry Collins.
Mr. Nixon. Will you testify that you did not see Crosley in the
apartment of Heniy Collins?
Mr. Hiss. I will testify that to the best of my knowledge and recol-
lection I have never seen Crosley in the apartment of Henry Collins.
Mr. Nixon. Well, of course, you are leaving open the possibility that
you might have seen him in the event that that should come out in the
proof before the committee.
Mr. Hiss. You can put it that way if you choose, Mr. Nixon.
1172 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixox. Well, do you wish it to be left that way ?
Mr. Hiss. I wish it to be left as I have just stated it, that to the best
of my knowledge and recollection I am very confident that I never
saw Crosley in the apartment of Henry Collins.
Mr. Nixon. But you won't say categorically that you did not see
him in the apartment of Henry Collins ?
Mr. Hiss. I do not see how one can say categorically that one has not
seen anybody. If he was attending social functions, if there were a
large number of people at some occasion, and he was present, I could
not testify with absolute positive finality.
Mr. Nixon. I am not questioning you concerning social functions.
I am questioning you as to whether you have seen this man in the
apartment of Henry Collins in the presence of others.
Mr. Hiss. You mean when a relatively few people were gathered to-
gether for an occasion when they were all as a small group among
themselves in the apartment of Henry Collins? I testify positively
that that did not occur.
Mr. Nixon. When you speak of a relatively small group, what do
you mean?
Mr. Hiss. What do you mean? I would say up to 7 or 8, 9, 10, 11
people.
Mr. Nixon. Then, you are testifying positively now that you have
never seen Crosley in the apartment of Collins when as many as 11
people were there?
Mr. Hjss. I am.
Mr. Nixon. You are testifying positively to that fact?
Mr. Hiss. Yes, Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Now, have you ever seen Crosley in any of the — in the
house that you lived in on Thirtieth Street?
Mr. Hiss. I have no recollection whatever of ever having seen Cros-
ley in that house.
Mr. Nixon. Can you testify that you have never seen him in that
house ?
Mr. Hiss. I would testify that to the best of my recollection I am
confident I never saw him in that house.
Mr. Nixon. But you won't testify categorically that you did not see
him in that house ?
Mr. Hiss. Only for the reasons that I have already given, that it
is impossible to testify with absolute finality on such a point, Mr.
Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. Now, Mr. Hiss, you took this Thirtieth Street house,
as you will recall, yourself, in July of 1936.
Mr. Hiss. Well, if that is what the records show that is when I
took it. I do not have it in mind at the moment.
Mr. Nixon. That is a year after this lease, over a year after this
lease with Crosley expired. Now, do you want to leave this com-
mittee with the impression that there is a possibility, even a remote
possibility, that you were still seeing Crosley over a year after he had
welshed on the rent ?
Mr. Hiss. I would put it the other way. I cannot testify positively
to the possibility that Crosley did not come to see me.
Mr. Nixon. Then, it is possible that he did see you in that
apartment ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1173
Mr. Hiss. That I would not be able to testify to with absolute
finality.
Mr. Nixon. You will recall your testimony, which was final on
Monday before this committee, that Crosley definitely had seen you in
only two apartments or dwellings that you know.
Mr. Hiss. That is the best of my recollection.
jNlr. Nixon.. Did you say "to the best of my recollection" on Monday?
Mr. Hiss. Whatever the record says is what I said.
]\Ir. Nixon. You Avant to stand by that record ?
Mr. Hiss. I do not question the record as to what I said. I am
testifying now in specific answer to your specific question, that to
the best of my recollection I never saw Crosley except at the Twenty-
eighth Street apartment, mj^ office in the Senate Office Building, my
house on P Street, and when I went to lunch with him, and perhaps
if I drove him to New^ York.
Mr. Nixon. I understood you to say that you have found it difficult
to check Mr. Whittaker Chambers during the last 10 years, his record
during the last 10 years. What did you mean by that ?
Mr. Hiss. The check that I was making was not made during the
last 10 years. The check I have been making is within the last few
days.
Mr. Nixon. I assumed that.
]SIr. Hiss. I found it difficult to find where he lived, who knew
him, what his habits were.
Mr. Nixon. I would also find it difficult to find out what your
habits were.
Mr. Hiss. I would not think so. I have lived a normal, open,
public life in Washington, and the last je'Av or so in New York.
Mr. Nixon. The total amount that George Crosley owed you, as
you have testified, and the leases which, of course, as you yourself
have said, are the best evidence, could not have been over $150.
Mr. Hiss. I should not think that it would have been more than that.
Mr. Nixon. Two months. We have established that, and I think
there can be no argument on that, and your loans, you said you did
not think exceeded $30, as I recall your testimony.
Mr. Hiss. That is my best recollection.
Mr. Nixon. Now, what is the implication that is left from the testi-
mony that because of that $150 loan, which Crosley owed you, that
he has willfully circulated this charge that ^''ou are a Communist?
Mr. Hiss. I did not testify to your committee that I had any under-
standing of the motive which could have led him to make such a
serious charge. I am not prepared to say that I understand or have
any inkling as to what could have led him to make such a charge, Mr.
Nixon.
I would not want to say that the words we had over these relatively
minor financial transactions could possibly motivate any normal per-
son to make such a charge.
Mr. Nixon. Well, now, of course, as you have indicated, the charge
that you or anybody else is a Communist now is a serious charge.
Also the inference which, of course, the statements regarding which
you made before the committee, and your answers to questions which
you have given to the committee that somebody has been treated for a
mental ilhiess today is also a serious charge, I would appreciate,
1174 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
in helping the committee, to find out what the motive could have been,
to find out whether possibly there is a mental condition here, if you
would tell the committee now, what your sources are that you have
for believing that Mr. Crosley has been treated for a mental illness.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, the first reference to that which came to my
attention was on the afternoon of the morning which occurred after I
first testified before the committee. One of two friends, who came
to the hearing with me, a lawyer who was at law school with me, and
who came with me to the hearings, simply as a friend, was told by a
renresentative of the press that there had been reports being received
by the press ever since Chambers had testified that he had spent a
considerable part of the last 4 or 5 years in mental institutions. That
seemed to me to be a significant assertion, and I have attempted to
run it down. I have not found any evidence as yet. I shall continue
to search for evidence.
Mr. Nixon. Can you tell us who that was ?
Mr. Hiss. The friend who accompanied me ?
Mr. Nixon. Yes.
Mr. Hiss. He was Joseph Johnston, of Birmingham, Ala., who hap-
pened to be in Washington at that time. What press person spoke
to him, I do not know. I have not asked him what press person it
was. I think it was a member of the press who came up to him
casually while he was sitting with me.
Mr. Nixon. And, Mr. Johnston told you that a member of the press
had told him
Mr. Hiss. Just what I have told you.
Mr. Nixon. What you have just told me?
Mr. Hiss. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. And on the basis of that statement, which is hearsay
twice removed, you are leaving the implication that Mr. Crosley has
been in a mental institution.
Mr. Hiss. Mr. Nixon, you say I am leaving an implication.
Mr. NixoN. Well, I cannot gather anything else from your state-
ment.
Mr. Hiss. There have been other reports made to me.
Mr. Nixon. What other reports ?
Mr. Hiss. That an individual who formerly worked on Time said
that Chambers had been to a mental institution.
Mr. Nixon. Who told you that ?
Mr. Hiss. This also came to me from a second-hand source. The
name of the individual who was supposed to have made the state-
ment— I do not like to bring names in unnecessarily, however, if you
insist
Mr. Nixon. I insist.
Mr. Hiss. The name is of a person named Walton, who, I under-
stand, formerly worked on Time, and who, I do not know that Walton,
he said definitely that Chambers had been to a mental institution in
194G. Tlie statement was made that Walton understood that or
thought that.
Mr. Nixon. Now, who else?
Mr. Hiss. I do not recall any other specific information because I
have not personally been attempting to go into it. I have asked coun-
sel if they could check on it. It is not an easy thing to check. It is not
easy to check on.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1175
Mr. Nixox. Well, the committee is interested in this information
because we, too, have the obligation to check on it.
As I understand, both of your statements are made on the basis of
what other people told you
Mr. Hiss. Entirely.
Mr. Nixox. Concerning things which have been told them.
Mr. Hiss. Entirely, and I have not gone into it personally. I have
asked counsel to see if there is any way they could find out about it.
Mr. Nixox. That is all I have, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Counsel, you have something there that you
wanted to bring up some time ago. What is that ?
Mr. DA^as. Thaidv you, Mr. Chairman. Will 3- on bear with me?
It won't take but just a" minute. It seems as if it is ancient history now,
but after Mr. Mundt made his statements, I felt I w^anted to refer the
committee to a statement made by Mr. Mundt during the hearing, the
first public hearing, at which Mr.Hiss' name came up, and I would like,
to just read the two paragraphs :
Mr. Mundt. Mr. Chambers, I am very much interested in trying to check the
career of Alger Hiss. I know nothing about Donald Hiss, but, as a member of
the Foreign Affairs Committee, the personnel committee, I have had some occasion
to check the activities of Alger Hiss while be was in the State Department. There
is reason to believe that he organized within the Department one of the Com-
munist cells, which endeavored to influence our Chinese policy, and bring about
the condemnation of Chiang Kai-shek, which put Marzani in an important
position there and, I think, it is important to know what happened to these people
after they leave the Government. Do you know where Alger Hiss is employed
now?
]Mr. Mundt. My. Chairman, I would like to make a statement.
The Chairman. Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Mundt. I am glad you read that, Mr. Counsel, because I was
just going to make that statement now, and I won't have to do it, in
connection with a statement in the letter of Mr. Hiss in wdiich he
implied or gave the impression that my disagreement with American
foreign policy was because he had been connected with it, and I would
not want it to go out that my only disagreement with some of these
policies is because of your connection w^ith them.
As far as I am concerned, Mr. Hiss, our policy tow^ard China, the
political agreement at Yalta, which you said you helped write, and
the Morgenthau plan, you mentioned three of them, are hopelessly
bad, and I shall continue to consider them hopelessly bad even though
you prove yourself to be the president of the American Daughters of
the Revolution.
The fact that you were connected with them may or may not, when
these hearings have terminated, increase my skepticism about their
wisdom.
It is true, as I said in my summation, that as a member of the House
Foreign Affairs Committee I have had brought to my attention sev-
eral times the mention of the name Alger Hiss in connection with
our Chinese policy.
It is also true that after listening to him testify the following day
I said publicly, and I said in the record, tliAt he had been a very per-
suasive and convincing witness, and had very well convinced me of
his reliability.
In fact, I advised Mrs. Mundt at dinner that night, and she said I
had been taken in by his suavity. Perhaps a w^oman's intuition is
1176 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
better than a man's, I do not know, but at all events, I am willing to
again state that Mr. Hiss was a willing and persuasive witness as far
as I am concerned.
I would like to say just one other thing with regard to that part
of the letter. Mr. Chairman, which says it is inconceivable that he,
Mr. Hiss, could have worked in the Government for these many years
and still have been a member of the Communist Party' or disloyal.
That is not inconceivable to me without in any way attempting at
this time to indict the credibility of Mr. Hiss. But I wish to point
out that John Peurifoy, Assistant Secretary of State in charge of
security, has notified Congress that 134 members of the State Depart-
ment had weasled their Avay into the State Department alone, and had
been i-emoved from the Depai'tment for disloyalty reasons.
So it is not at all inconceivable that the number could just as well
have been 135 as 134.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. No questions.
The Chairman. Are there any other questions? Mr. Hiss, you
have had a tiying day. and you may sit back there among the com-
fortable seats. We are going to recess for 7 minutes.
(A short recess was taken.)
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling, the next witness.
Mr. Stripling. Whittaker Chambers.
The Chairman. Mr. Chambers, you have been sworn, but I might
as well swear you again.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Chambers. I do.
Mr. Stripling. Sit right down there and talk in the microphone.
Mr. Chambers. This one ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
TESTIMONY OF WHITTAKER CHAMBERS— Eesumed
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chambers, would you state your full name for
the record.
Mr. Chambers. My full name is J. David Whittaker Chambers.
Mr. Stripling. When and where weie you born, Mr. Chambers ?
Mr. Chambers. I was born in Philadelphia in 1901, April 1.
Mr. Stripling. What is your present occupation?
Mr. Chambers. I am senior editor of Time magazine.
Mr. Stripling. Were you at one time a member of the Communist
Party ?
Mr. Chambers. I was.
Mr. Stripling. How long were you a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Chambers. I was a member of the Communist Party from 1924
until about 1937 or 1938, early '38.
Mr. Stripling. Would you detail to the committee the various posi-
tions which you held in the Communist Party.
Mr. Chambers. Yes. I was at one time a writer on the Daily
Worker, later foreign news editor of the Daily Worker, later, in fact,
managing editor of the Daily Worker, editor of the New Masses, and
a functionary in the underground.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1177
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chambers, when you were with the New Masses,
were you known as Whittaker Clianibers?
Mr. Chambers. I was.
Mr. Stripling. I show you a copy of the New Masses of May 1932,
No. 11, voUime 7, and on the masthead it says: "Editorial board."
The first name is that of Whittaker Chambers. The next name is
Kobert Evans, the next name is Hugo Gellert, tlie next name Michael
Gokl, and the next name is that of the managing editor. I show you a
photostatic copy of the New Masses, and ask you if you are familiar
with the men who are listed here as members of the editorial board
[showing document to witness].
Mr. Chambers. I recognize all except Robert Evans, which is very
likely a pseudonym. I recognize all the names except Robert Evans,
which I suspect is a pseudonym for Joseph Freeman.
Mr. Stripling. You were'associated with all of these people on the
editorial board of the New Masses?
Mr. Chambers. I was.
Mr. Stripling. And could you identify the New Masses? Was it
the official organ of the Communist Party?
Mr. Chambers. No ; it was not the official organ of the Communist
Party. It was the intellectual organ of the Communist Party.
Mr. Stripling. The intellectual organ of the Communist Party.
That was in 1932?
Mr. Chambers. The distinction I would make is that it did not
assert its Communist affiliations at that time, but of these men, one,
two, three, four, five, were either open or concealed Communists.
Mr. Stripling. And you were a member of the Communist Party at
that time ?
Mr. Chambers. I was.
Mr. Stripling. Did you contribute other articles to the New
Masses?
Mr. Chambers. I contributed a number of short stories just prior to
this period.
Mr. Stripling. I have here, Mr. Chairman, a photostatic copy of
the New Masses of December 1931, an article by Whittaker Chambers,
Death of the Communist, a story.
Also an article in New Masses for March 1931, by Whittaker Cham-
bers, Can You JMake Out Their Voices ?
I have also the New Masses of October 1931, an article by Whittaker
Chambers, Our Comrade Munn, a Story.
Did you ever serve as the editor in fact of the Daily Worker?
Mr. Chambers. The editor in fact ; yes.
Mr. Stripling. Who was listed as the editor ?
Mr. Chambers. Robert Minor, I believe.
Mr. Stripling. And during what period was that ?
Mr. Chambers. It was probably between 1927 and 1929.
Mr. Stripling. I have here Mr. Chambers, the original of a copy of
the New jVIasses of July 1931, which contains a picture of Whittaker
Chambers, with the caption —
Whittaker Chambers was born in Philadelphia, 11)01 ; boyhood in eastern United
States; youth as, periodically, a vagrant laborer in tlie deep South, Plains,
Northwest ; brief college experience, ending with atheist publication. Formerly
member of Industrial Union 310, IWW.
1178 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Would you mind stating what that is, Mr. Mandel?
Mr. Mandel. IWW— Industrial Workers of the World.
Mr. Stripling. Industrial Workers of the World.
Joined revolutionary movement in 1935 ; contributed to numerous publications ;
former staff member of Daily Worker ; contributing editor of the New Masses.
Is that a picture of you, Mr. Chambers [showing photograph to
witness] ?
Mr. Chambers, It is.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know when this picture was taken or about
when ?
Mr. Chambers. It was taken just about this date, which is July 1931.
Mr, Stripling. You testified, Mr. Chambers, that you were a mem-
ber of the underground, of the Communist Party.
Mr. Chambers. I did,
Mr. Stripling. During what period were you a member of the
underground of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Chambers. From 1932, roughly, through 1937.
Mr. Stripling. During that period, did you meet the person who was
on the witness stand today, Alger Hiss?
Mr. Chambers. I did meet Mr. Alger Hiss.
Mr. Stripling. Would you now give to the committee a chrono-
logical resume of your meeting with Mr. Hiss, and how long you
knew Mr. Hiss and the circumstances under which you met him ?
Mr. Chambers. I believe that I was first introduced to Mr. Hiss by
Harold Ware and J. Peters, who was the head of the underground of
the American Communist Party.
The meeting took place in Washington, and I believe in a restaurant.
I then continued to know Mr, Hiss until I broke with the Communist
Party in early 1938, and I saw him once again toward the end of 1938.
Mr, Stripling, Did you ever meet Mr, Hiss at the offices of the Nye
Investigating Committee in the Senate Office Building?
Mr. Chambers. I never did,
Mr, Stripling, You never did ?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet Mr. Hiss at his apartment on
Twenty-eighth Street?
Mr. Chambers. I did,
Mr, S'niiPUNG, How many times did you meet Mr, Hiss, would you
say, at the address on Twenty-eighth Street?
Mr, Chambers, I could not state accurately, but I should say a num-
ber of times.
Mr. Stripling. About how many times; over 60?
Mr. Chambers. Not at Twenty-eighth Street. I would think — well,
let's say 20 times.
INIr. Stripling, Twenty times at Twenty-eighth Street,
Were you ever known or did you represent yourself to Mr. Hiss, when
you first met, as being an individual by the name of George Crosley ?
Mr. Chaimbers. I did not.
Mr, Stripling, You did not. Did Mr, Hiss ever sublease an apart-
ment to you on Twenty-eighth Street?
Mr, Chambers. He did not.
Mr, Stripling, He did not. Did he ever permit you to live in an
apartment on Twenty-eighth Street?
Mr. Chambers. He did.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1179
Mr. Stripling. He did. Did Mr. Hiss, at any time, sell you a Ford
automobile, model A, 1929 model ?
Mr. Chambers. He did not.
Mr, Stripling. He did not. Do you have a question, Mr. Nixon ?
Mr. Nixon. Not at this time.
Mr. Stripling. Did you and your family, your wife and child, ever
visit or were you ever guests in the home of Mr. Alger Hiss ?
Mr. Chambers. We were.
Mr. Stripling. When?
Mr. Chambers. My recollection is — we are now talking about the
house on P Street, I take it.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever guests, you and your wife, in his
apartment on Twenty-eighth Street '(
Mr. Chambers. We were guests in the apartment for the period
after Mr. Hiss moved to his house on P Street. My recollection of that
period is 3 or 4 weeks. I should think : at the utmost, 6 weeks.
Mr. Nixon. Just a moment, ^Mr. Stripling. You have not made the
question clear.
Mr. Stripling. Yes ; I will clarify it. I will repeat the question, Mr.
Chambers. Were you ever — you and your family, were you ever guests
at Mr. Hiss' apartment while he and his wife were living in the apart-
ment on Twenty-eighth Street ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; I do not believe that we were. My recollection
is that we came in after the Hisses moved into their new house. I
could be mistaken about that, but I do not believe I am.
Mr. Stripling. You do not recall ever visiting him on Twenty-
eighth Street?
Mr. Chambers. I personally visited him.
Mr. Stripling. You personally visited, but not with j^our family?
Mr. Chambers. But I do not tjelieve my family did until after the
Hisses moved out.
Mr. Stripling. Did 3''ou ever have an oral agreement with Mr. Hiss
regarding a sublease of an apartment on Twenty-eighth Street?
Mr. Chambers. There was' no talk of a sublease, no question of a
sublease.
Mr. Stripling. Why did you move into the apartment on Twenty-
eighth Street?
Mr. Chambers. I wanted to have my family with me in Washington.
Mr. Stripling. Did Mr. Hiss volunteer to loan you the apartment ?
Mr. Chambers. It is my recollection that he made the suggestion.
ISIr. Stripling. Do you recall when this was?
Mr. Chambers. I should have thought it was during the early
summer of 1935.
Mr. Stripling. Earl}' summer of 1935?
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chambers, may I interpose there?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Going back a moment to when you first met Mr. Hiss, do
you recall approximate^ when that was; what year?
Mr. Chambers. I had originally thought that it was early in 1935.
The testimony of Mr. Hiss seems to put it in 1934, which is quite
possible.
Mr. Nixon. What is your recollection on it ?
Mr. Chambers. Well, I can only — —
Mr. Nixon. Apart from his testimony.
1180 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Cpiambers. I can only assume that it was probably in 1934.
Mr. Nixon. Well, now, what was the occasion of that? You had
come to Washington in what capacity ?
Mr. Chambers. I had come to Washington as a functionary of the
Communist Party. Shall I describe the set-up of the Communist
Party here in Washington ?
Mr. Nixon. Yes.
Mr. Chambers. Mr. Harold Ware, who is the son of Ella Reeve
Bloor, a well-known Communist, had gone down to Washington, to
the best of my knowledge, about 1933. He was chiefly interestecl in
farm activities of some kind, but he discovered, after he got there, that
he could recruit a large number of people in the Government for the
Communist Party. It is possible that some of the people were Com-
munists already, and he simply came in touch with them; others, I
am sure, he recruited himself.
He set up, perhaps with the help of J. Peters, an apparatus consist-
ing of a number of organizations, a number of cells, each cell being
led by a man who formed part of a committee, and an underground
committee which met regularly at the home of Henry Collins in St.
Matthews Court.
The Chairman. What was the last name?
Mr. Chambers. Henry Collins.
The Chairman. After that?
Mr. Chambers. At St. Matthews Court.
The members of that group, when I first came to know them, were
Henry Collins, Alger Hiss, Donald Hiss, Charles Kramer or Krevit-
sky, Victor Perlo, John Abt, Nathan Witt — it seems to me I have
forgotten one — Lee Pressman, of course.
Mr. Nixon. Well, now, when you came to Washington in the latter
part of 1934, you came as a Communist functionary; is that your
testimony ?
Mr. Chambers. That is true.
Mr. Nixon. You say then that you were introduced to Mr. Hiss at
that time ?
Mr. Chambers. I was introduced to all these people sooner or later.
I think I was introduced to most of them separately, individually,
before I met them among this group.
Mr. Nixon. Where did you meet them all in a group ?
Mr. Chambers. I met them at Henry Collins' in St. Matthews Court.
Mr. Nixon. Have you seen all these individuals at Henry Collins'
apartment ?
Mr. Chambers. I have.
Mr. Nixon. At St. Matthews Court?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Are you sure of that ?
Mr. Chambers. Quite, sir.
Mr. Stripling. I failed to let the record show that Mr. Chambers is
here in response to a subpena which was served on him by Louis J.
Russell on August 17, to appear here today at 10 o'clock. You are
here in response to Ihat subpena ; are you not?
Mr. Chambefs. I am.
Mr. Nixon. Now. you were introduced to Mr. Hiss, as you recall,
by Harold Ware, and J. Peters.
Mr. Chambers. I believe so.
' COMAIUNIST ESPIONAGE 1181
Mr. Nixon. Who is J. Peters?
Mr. Chambers. J. Peters was the head of the imdergroiind section
of the American Communist Party.
The Chairman. All ridit, Mr. Nixon ; yon may proceed.
Mr. Nixox. Was J. Peters your immediate superior ?
Mr. Chambers. He was.
Mr. Nixon. Now, on how many occasions, approximately, do you
recall having been in the apartment of Henry Collins when Mr. Hiss
was there?
Mr. Chambers. I would say
Mr. Nixon. Was it more than once?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; more than once, hut perhaps not more than
five times, because we separated Mr. Alger Hiss from that group rather
early.
Mr. Nixon. What do you mean by "separating from that group''?
Mr. Chambers. The intention w-as to set up a parallel group of men
whose opportunities for penetrating into the Government and arriving
at positions of power and influence seemed best.
Mr. Nixon. Was it then that you saw Mr. Alger Hiss individually;
do I understand ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; I think I had been introduced to him before I
actually went to Henry Collins* house.
Mr. Nixon. When did you first go to Alger Hiss' house, his apart-
ment : do you recall ?
]Mr. Ciiambfrs. Yevy shoitly after I met him.
Mr. Nixon. Do you ever recall having stayed overnight in his apart-
ment by yourself, not when your family was there ?
Mr. Chambers. No. I do not. and I do not believe I did, but it is
barely possible.
Mr. Nixon. I see. Now. you have indicated, at least the assumption
has been in your testimony, that INIr. Hiss was introduced to you as a
Communist. How do you know that he was a Communist ?
Mr. Chambers. The assumption was in the whole set-up. J. Peters
was the organizer of the underground section of the Communist Party.
He was dealing with party comrades, and these were dues-paying
members of the Communist Party.
Mr. Nixon. J. Peters introduced Alger Hiss to you as a member of
the Communist Party?
Mr. Chambers. That was understood.
Mr. Nixon. I see. Do you have any other information on which to
base 3^our statement that Mr. Hiss was a member of the Communist
Party, other than J. Peters told you he was ?
Mr. Chambers. Mr. Hiss obeyed party discipline in every respect.
Mr. Nixon. Did you yourself have occasion at any time to take
dues from Air. Hiss for the Communist Party?
Mr. Chambers. I did.
Mr. Nixon. You did ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. On one occasion or more occasions than one?
Mr. Chambers. At least on one occasion, and I would think on at
least three occasions.
Mr. Nixon. Could it have been more or less than that ?
Mr. Chambers. It could have been more than that.
11 32 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. It could have been more than that. Who collected dues
for Mr. Hiss generally ?
Mr. Chambers. Henry Collins.
Mr. Nixon. Henry Collins?
Mr. Chambers. Henry Collins was the treasurer of that group.
Mr. Nixon. Did J. Peters ever collect dues from Mr. Hiss ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes, he did.
Mr. Nixon. To your knowledge ?
Mr. Chambers. To my knowledge.
Mr. Nixon. Now, did you and your family spend some time with
Mr. Hiss in his house on P Street ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; I think we spent a few days there, sometime
after we had moved out of the apartment on Twenty-eighth Street. _
Mr. Nixon. Now, going back to the apartment for a moment, did
you bring any furniture with you ?
Mr. Chambers. I did not.
Mr. Nixon. You did not bring any furniture. Where did you come
from ?
Mr. Chambers. I came from my mother's house on Long Island.
Mr. Nixon. In New York?
Mr. Chambers. Outside New York.
Mr. Nixon. And how long was the stay, to the best of your recol-
lection?
Mr. Chambers. I think, not longer than 6 weeks. I would think
that was on the outside.
Mr. Nixon. Could it have been less ?
Mr. Chambers. It could have been less.
Mr. Nixon. Could it have been more ?
Mr. Chambers. It could have been possibly more.
Mr. Nixon. You are sure you did not bring any furniture ?
Mr. Chambers. Absolutely sure.
Mr. Nixon. You are sure there was no agreement for rental ?
Mr. Chambers. There was no agi^eemtot for rental.
Mr. Nixon. Why would Mr. Hiss let you go in there for nothing?
Mr. Chambers. Because Mr. Hiss and I were Communists, and that
was a comradely way of treating one another. There is nothing un-
usual in such a procedure among Communists.
Mr. Nixon. You say it is not unusual ?
Mr. Chambers. It is not at all unusual.
Mr. Nixon. Now, going to this automobile, at the time that you
went into this apartment, did Mr. Hiss sell you an automobile ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; he did not.
Mr. Nixon. Did he loan you an automobile for the period that you
were in the apartment?
Mr. Chambers. No ; he did not.
Mr. Nixon. Did he at any time sell you an automobile ?
Mr. Chambers. He never sold me an automobile.
Mr. Nixon. Did he loan you an automobile for a period of 8 to 10
weeks at any time ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; he did not.
Mr. Nixon. Are you certain of that?
Mr. Chambers. Absolutely.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know what kind of an automobile Mr. Hiss had
at that time ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1183
Mr. Chambers. The first car, the car that Mr. Hiss had when I
first knew him, was a Ford.
Mr. Nixon. What did he get after that ?
Mr. Chambers. A Plymouth.
Mr. Nixon. Have you ever ridden in that Plymouth ?
Mr. Chambers. I have.
Mr. Nixon. Where did you ride to ?
Mr. Chambers. I think we made one trip together in that Plymouth.
Mr. Nixon. Well, you think. Do you know whether you made that
trip ? Do you recall that trip ?
Mr. Chambers. We made a trip to New York in the Plymouth.
Mr. Nixon. You can state that you did make a trip to New York?
Mr. Chambers. I can state that.
Mr. Nixon. You recall that trip specifically? Who was along?
You were along, Mr. Hiss, and who else ?
Mr. Chambers. I believe Mrs. Hiss was there also.
Mr. Nixon. Mrs. Hiss was along ?
Mr. Chambers. I believe so.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know approximately when that trip occurred?
Mr. Chambers. That would be difficult to say, but I should think
sometime in 1936 or 1937,
Mr. Nixon. As far as the car is concerned, the Ford car, did Mr.
Hiss have that car after he acquired this Plymouth ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; he had it for some time afterward, I believe,
for some time ; I would think some months.
Mr. Nixon. For some months. Well, how do you know that?
Mr. Chambers. Well, to the best of my knowledge and recollection.
Mr. Nixon. I mean, have you seen it there, have you seen his car?
Mr. Chambers. Certainly.
Mr. Nixon. You saw his car. Then, in other words, you are testi-
fying as a matter of fact that you did see that car after he had the
Plymouth ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; that is right. I am merely trying to be cir-
cumspect.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know what became of that car ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; I do.
Mr. Nixon. Tell the committee what became of that car.
Mr. Chambers. Mr. Hiss was a devoted, and at that time a rather
romantic Communist. According to the organization of the under-
ground, there should be no communication between the open Com-
munist Party and the underground Communist Party, except through
people delegated by either of those sections.
Mr. Hiss, however, insisted that his old car should be given to the
open Communist Party to be used by some poor Communist organizer
in the West or elsewhere.
I was very much opposed to this. J. Peters was also very much
opposed to it, but Mr. Hiss prevailed on us because the question of
morale was always involved in these groups, and Peters told me that
in Washington or somewhere in the District, the Communist Party
had an individual who owned or worked in a service station, and
old-car lot.
The plan was for Mr. Hiss to take the Ford and leave it at the car
lot, which he did.
Mr. Nixon. Now, how do you know that ?
1184 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Chambers. I know that both because Mr. Hiss told me, and
because I heard it through Mr. Peters, who told me that.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss and Mr. Peters both told yon that is what
happened to the car. Do yon recall when that occurred ?
Mr. Chambers. I should think in 1936.
Mr. Nixon. And your recollection is that the visit that you and
your family paid to Mr. Hiss was after you lived in the apartment ?
Mr. Chambers. I think so.
Mr. Nixon. Now. did you see Mr. Hiss any time after 1935?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; 1 saw Mr. Hiss constantly through 1937, until
I broke with the Communist Party.
Mr. Nixon. Well, how many times?
Mr. Chambers. By constantly. I mean at least once a week.
Mr. Nixon. You saw him once a week?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. After 1935 ?
Mr. Chambers. Certainly.
Mr. Nixon. You saw Mr. Hiss — during 1936 you saw him, and
through the whole year?
Mr. Chambers. 1 saw him through 1936, 1937, up until the time I
broke with the Communist Party.
Mr. Nixon. Where did you see him on these occasions?
Mr. Chambers. After our first meeting together, I saw him nearly
always at his home.
Mr. Nixon. Nearly always in his home?
Mr. Chambers. Nearly always in his home.
Mr. Nixon. Did jou ever stay overnight in his home?
Mr. Chambers. I stayed overnight frequently in liis b.ome.
Mr. Nixon. When j^ou say "frequently," do j'ou mean twice or more
than that?
Mr. Chambers. I mean that I made his home a kind of headquarters.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss' home was a kind of a headquarters?
Mr. Chambers. That is true.
Mr. Nixon. And you stayed in his home overnight on several occa-
sions in 1936, did you?
Mr. Chambers. Certainly, and also in 1937.
Mr. Nixon. And also in 1937.
On these occasions when you stayed in his home, what did you
discuss?
Mr. Chambers. Well, we discussed a variety of subjects, including
Mr. Hiss' prospects in Government, the actual conditions of his work,
the world revolution, Russian foreign policy, the Spanish Civil AVar,
and ornithology.
Mr. Nixon. Are you an ornithologist ?
Mr. Chambers. No; I am a very amateur bird watcher.
Mr. Nixon. Well, are you an amateur ornithologist?
Mr. Chambers. I vrould not say that. I am simply a bird watcher,
and not on a par with Mr. Hiss, but I am interested in birds.
[Laughter.]
The Chairman. We are, too.
]Mr. Nixon. Did you ever take a meal with Mr. Hiss during that
])eriod ?
Mr. Chambers. I did, indeed.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1185
Mr. Nixox. I mean on the occasions when you stayed overnight. Is
that M'iien you took the meal?
Mr. Chambers. I avouIcI certainl}- take a meal with him at that
time.
Mr. Nixon. What arrano:emont was made for paying Mr. Hiss at
the time of staying overnight?
Mr. Chambers. There was no question of payment involved at any
time.
Mr. Nixox. You mean you never paid him for the occasions you
did stay with him?
Mr. Chambers. Quite so.
Mr. Nixox. What is the reason for that ?
Mr. Chambers. Mr. Hiss considered it a privilege to have a superior
in the Communist organization at his home.
Mr. Nixox. Now, you definitely say that you did see Mr. Hiss then
in the P Street house, you had been there?
Mr. Chambers. Yes : I have.
Mr. Nixox. What house have you been in since the P Street house?
Mr. Chambers. The house on the street which crosses P Street,
which I have never identified by its correct name.
Mr. Nixon. Well, where is it in relation to the P Street house?
Mr. Chambers. It. I think, was about two or three blocks away, but
it is up and down street in Georgetown.
Mr. NixoN. And you have been in that house, as well ?
Mr. Chambers. I have, indeed.
Mr. Nixon. On several occasions?
Mr. Chambers. On several occasions.
Mr. Nixox. Would you describe your recollection of that house?
Mr. Chambers. Yes. As nearly as I can recall it, it was a consider-
ably smaller house than the P Street house. It was on the right-hand
side of the street, as you go up. The entrance Avas a flight of brick
steps, and I think there were steps going up on both sides, a little iron
railing at the stage.
The dining room was downstairs in the rear of the house. As I re-
call, he had a particular
Mr. Nixox. Have you ever stayed in that house overnight, can you
recall?
]Mr. Chambers. Yes ; I am sure I have.
Mr. Nixox. And yom- testimony is that you have seen Mr. Hiss dur-
ing 1936 and 1937, as often as once a week?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; I think that would not be an exaggeration.
Let us say once a fortnight, to be on the conservative side,
Mr. Nixox. You are sure that it was once a fortnight?
Mr. Chambers. Absolutelv.
Mr. Nixox. You will testify to that absolutely?
jNIr. Chambers. Absolutely.
Mr. Nixox. Not to the best of your recollection, but absolutely?
Mr. Chambers. Absolutely, with this one qualification, that" once
in awhile ]\Ir. Hiss Avent on a vacation.
Mr. Nixox. Except for the periods when he was not there.
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. Nixox. You did see him there?
Mr. Chambers. I absolutely state that as a fact.
80408—48 44
1186 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. Now, I have covered some of the questions that Mr.
Hiss has asked that I ask you, and I am going to go into some of the
rest of these questions.
I think that for the record you should state for the committee where
your present residence is.
Mr. Chambers. The committee understands the difficuhy about that,
I believe. I do not want to expose my family or myself to possible
attempts on my life. I do not want to inject any sensationalism at
this point.
The Chairman. The Chair would like to make this statement.
As I understand it, your present address is known to our staff.
Mr. Champers. I believe it is.
Mr. Nixon. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Yes; we have his present business address, as well
as his home address, and have had it for some time.
The Chairman. Well, I would suggest then, Mr. Nixon, that that
question not be pressed at this time, because the committee staff has
the address.
Mr. Stripling. Let me ask this. Mr. Chambers, do you have any
objection to telling Mr. Hiss your present address?
Mr. Chambers. To me that seems tantamount to telling the Com-
munist Party. However, I will tell my address and get rid of this
question right away.
Mr. McDowell. Wait a minute. I am not sure that this is a wise
thing to do.
Mr. MuNDT. I do not think so, Mr. Chairman. We know of pre-
vious attempts that Communists have made on the lives of people whom
they detest, and I see no reason for subjecting him to increased haz-
ards. We know what his address is. It is not a question of pertinency
in here, and I see no reason to be exposing him to continuous attempts
upon his life, which have been made in the past. It does not serve any
purpose.
The Chairman. The chairman will rule that the question be not
asked at this time, and the answer not be given.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chambers, you have no objection to giving
your business address?
Mr, Chambers. None at all.
Mr. Stripling. Give your business address.
Mr. Chambers, My business address is Time Magazine, 9 Eocke-
feller Plaza, New York City.
Mr. Stripling. You can be reached there several days during the
week, can you not?
Mr. Chambers. I could until recently, and shall in the future.
Mr. Nixon. Mr, Chambers, the next question we have covered to
an extent. Do you recall where you were living in 1930?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; T was probably living on a farm in Hunter-
don County, N. J.
Mr. Nixon. Yes; and about how long did you live there?
Mr. Chambers. I think we were there almost a year, perhaps more
than a year.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall where you moved from there?
Mr. Chambers. I think I moved next to Staten Island.
Mr. Nixon. Staten Island ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1187
Mr. Nixox. Do you recall how long yon lived there?
Mr. Chambers. Around a short time, I think, only a few months.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall your next residence, your next residence
after that?
Mr. Chambers. Perhaps I was living at my mother's house in
Long Island, I am not sure. I would have to make a careful list of
those things in order to answer that question.
Mr. NixoN. But did you live at your mother's house for a con-
siderable length of time?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; I think for a year at least.
Mr. Nixon. Tlien did you live in Washington ? You have indicated
that you lived at the apartment of Mr. Hiss.
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Where did you go from the apartment here?
Mr. Chambers. I went back to Long Island, I believe.
The Chairman. Will the gentleman yield to me?
Mr. Nixon. Yes.
The Chairman. When did you live .in Hunterdon County?
Mr. Chambers. I would think in 1932. I was still living there.
The Chairman. What towns were you living near?
Mr. Chambers. I live near a place called Glen Gardner.
Mr. Nixon. Where did you move from there? I do not mean
from Hunterdon County, I mean your mother's home ?
Mr. Chambers. I think we moved to Baltimore from there.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall how long you lived in Baltimore?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; I would think a couple of years.
Mr. Nixon. A couple of years. Then, from Baltimore, do you
recall where you moved next?
Mr. Chambers. From Baltimore, I fled from the Communist Party
and went into hiding.
Mr. Nixon. You fled from the Communist Party?
Mr. Chambers. And I went into hiding.
Mr. Nixon. You went into hiding. In other words, you were
living in Baltimore at the time j^ou left the party ?
Mr. Chambers. That is true.
Mr. Nixon. That is true. And then, what was your next residence
after that?
Mr. Chambers. I decided that the Communist Party would expect
me to try to get as far away as possible, so I moved a very short
distance from Baltimore.
Mr. Nixon. You did. And that is in the vicinity of Baltimore?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; on Old Court Road.
Mr. Nixon. And you lived there for how many years?
Mr. Chambers. Oh, I did not live there for years ; it was a matter
of months, I think, not more than 6 months.
Mr. Nixon. And then, from there where did you go ?
Mr. Chambers. From there I decided at that point that I must try
to come up above ground and establish an identity, having been under-
ground, and I was a faceless man, and I could always be
Mr. Nixon. It was then that you moved there, when ?
Mr. Chambers. Then I bought a house on St. Paul Street.
Mr. Nixon. In Baltimore ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. From there where did you go ?
1188 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Chambers. From there we went to my present address.
Mr. Nixox. Now, we have already covered your employment record
in the Communist Party. Since yon left the Communist Party, what
have you done ?
Mr. Chambers. I have translated a book, and written for and edited
Time Magazine.
Mr. Nixox. Now, you translated the book at what time ?
Mr. Chambers. At the time I was in hiding from the Communist
Party.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall the type of translation or what sort of
book it was that you translated ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; it was a novel on the Spanish Civil War.
Mr. Nixon. It was what?
Mr. Chambers. It was a novel on the Spanish Civil War, published
by Longmans Green.
Mr. NixoN. Did you do any other translation than that one, do you
recall?
Mr. Chambers. I do not recall.
Mr. Nixon. And your next occupation was what ?
Mr. Chambers. Writer for Time Magazine,
Mr. Nixon. When did you. go with Time Magazine ?
Mr. Chambers. In 1939. the early part of the year.
Mr. MuNDT. I take it that this translation and this employment with
Time was all under your name. Whittaker Chambers; is that right?
Mr. Chambers. It Avas.
Mr. NixoN. This is after vou were above ground?
Mr. Chambers. The name is in the flyleaf of the book,
Mr. NixoN. The next question is a bibliography of your writings.
I will ask you to submit that for the committee. I am not going to
ask you to submit it now, because of the time it would take to get it.
Mr. Chambers. I do not believe there is a bibliography of my writ-
ings. I have translated a number of books.
Mr. Nixon. You have never written a book?
Mr. Chambers. I have never written a book.
Mr. Nixon. You have just written for periodicals?
Mr, CriA^rBERS. I have written for Time Magazine.
■ Mr. Nixon. You have written for Time Magazine and the Daily
Worker ?
Mr. Chambers. For Life.
Mr. Nixon. And the New Masses. We have introduced in evidence
several of the pieces which you have written.
Mr. Chambers. Tliat is right.
Mr. Nixon. Now, Mr. Chambers, you heard the charge made here
that you had been treated for a mental illness. Do you have any com-
ment on that ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; I have never been treated for a mental illness —
period.
Mr. Nixon. You have never been treated in a mental institution?
Mr. Chambers. Never.
Mr. Nixon. Never. Have you been treated for a mental illness or
been m an institution during the past 4 years, which was the charge
made?
Mr. CiiAT.rBERS. Of course not; and anyone at Time Magazine can
tell you that.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1189
Mr. Nixox. In that connection, Mr. Chairman, I might say the
.committee took in executive testimony — in executive session — the testi-
mony of Mr. Nelson Frank, who has known Mr. Chambers since he
went with Time magazine and who knew him when Mr. Chambers was
on the staff of the Daily Worker, and Mr. Frank testified categorically
that he had known him during that time and that Mr. Chambers had
i.ever been in a mental institution, had never been treated for a mental
illness during the time that he had known him.
Mr. StriplixCx. Did you identify Mr. Frank? Mr. Nixon, did you
identify Mr. Frank?
Mr. NixoN. Mr. Nelson Frank is with the New York World-Tele-
gram at the present time.
Mr. Chambers, you are married?
Mr. Chambers. I am. This is my first and only wife.
Mr. Nixon. This is your first and only wife ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Have you any children?
Mr. Chambers. I have two, a boy and a girl.
Mr. Nixon. A boy and a girl. Would you give us their ages?
Mr. Chambers. The boy has just turned 12, and the girl is— will be
15 in the fall.
Mr. Nixon. And your wife resides with you ?
Mr. Chambers. Of course.
Mr. MuNDT. I think, Mr. Nixon, you overlooked one question, and I
would like to ask you about the question with regard to crime.
Have you ever been charged or co?ivicted of a crime ?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. MuNDT. There are no particulars which can be supplied then
for a crime you did not commit.
Mr. Cha3ibers. I am afraid not.
Mr. Nixon. Now, the next question is to describe the circumstances
under which you came in contact with the committee and make public
all written memorandum which you have handed to any representa-
tive of the committee.
Mr. Stripling. Just a moment. Mr. Chairman, I should like to
state that Mr. Chambers never got in touch with the committee. The
committee did, however, send two agents to New York to see him some-
time ago. When we began this investigation, we sent two agents. He
gave these two agents an interview. When this investigation of
• espionage in the Government began, a subpena was issvied and served
upon Mr. Chambers, without any prior knowledge on his part.
Mr. Nixon. Now, Mr. Chambers, you have testified that you know
of your own knowledge that Mr. Hiss- is a Communist and a member of
the Communist Party. You have also testified that you base that
statement on the fact that you were introduced to him as a Communist
and that you, yourself, on at least three occasions have collected party
dues from Mr. Hiss ; is that correct ?
Mr. Chambers. That is true.
Mr. NixoN. From Mr. Hiss?
Mr. Chambers. And Mr. Hiss fully understood I was a Communist.
Our relationship was the party relationship.
Mr. Nixon. And you, I understand, categorically deny this business
relationship which Mr. Hiss has testified to, concerning this apart-
ment.
1190 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Chambers. There was never any business relationship of any
kind between Mr. Hiss and me.
Mr. Nixon. Now, will you describe for the committee, Mr. Chambers,
the last time you saw Mr. Hiss ?
Mr. Chambers. About 1938, toward the end of 1938, 1 tried to break
away from the Communist Party a number of people. It seemed to
me that the time was coming when I would have to do something about
this problem. It also seemed to me proper that they should have an
opportunity to break away themselves. I had once been a Commu-
nist, and I broke away, and the possibility was always there.
I went to Mr. Hiss. He was then living on Dent Place, and I had
supper with him there, and with his wife, and in the course of that
meeting I tried to raise my doubts, and detach him from the Com-
munist Party. I failed.
Mr. Nixon. Well, now, will you describe for the committee how you
happened to go to his apartment? I mean, how you happened to go
to his house. Did you go to the door, do you recall, or what was the
occasion ?
Mr. Chambers. I went to the door, I suppose, about 7 o'clock at
night, perhaps. I was afraid of an ambush, but when I got there, only
a maid was at home.
Mr. Nixon. What is that?
Mr. Chambers. Only a maid was at home.
Mr. Nixon. What did you do ?
Mr. Chambers. I waited nearby, and very shortly Mrs. Hiss drove
up, and we went into the house together, and
Mr. Nixon. Well, how did you get Mrs, Hiss? Do you remember
that?
Mr. Chambers. Not particularly ; I do not recall.
Mr. Nixon. You met her at that time ?
Mr. Chambers. What is that?
Mr. Nixon. You say you met Mrs. Hiss as she drove up.
Mr. Chambers. She drove up, and stepped out of the car.
Mr. Nixon. I see.
Mr. Chambers. And we went in together.
Mr. Nixon. And you discussed breaking awa}^ from the party at
that time with Mr. Hiss ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; I did.
Mr. Nixon. And what was his reaction ?
Mr. Chambers. As I testified before, when I left him. Mr. Hiss
cried, but he would not break away from the Communist Party.
Mr. Nixon.' Mr. Chambers, you said that you felt that there was
some risk in going to Mr. Hiss at that time.
Mr. Chambers. Yes; I did.
Mr. Nixon. Why did you go to him ? Did you go to all the others
that were in this group ?
Mr. Chamijers. No ; I went to two or three others.
Mr. Nixon. Wliy did you go to see Mr. Hiss ?
Mr. Chambers. I was very fond of Mr. Hiss.
Mr. Nixon. You were very fond of Mr. Hiss ?
Mr. Chambers. Indeed I was ; perhaps my closest friend.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hiss was your closest friend?
Mr. Chambers. Mr. Hiss was certainly the closest friend I ever had
in the Communist Party.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1191
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chambers, can you search your memory now to
see what motive you can have for accusing Mr. Hiss of being a Com-
munist at the present time?
Mr. Chambers. What motive I can have ?
]Mr. Nixon. Yes. I mean, Do you — is there any grudge that you
have against Mr. Hiss over anything that he has done to you?
Mr. Chambers. The story has spread that in testifying against Mr.
Hiss I am working out some old grudge, or motives of revenge or
hatred. I do not hate Mr. Hiss. We were close friends, but we are
caught in a tragedy of history. Mr. Hiss represents the concealed
enemy against which we are all fighting, and I am fighting.
I have testified against him with remorse and pity, but in a moment
of history in which this Nation now stands, so help me God, I could
not do otherwise.
Mr. MuNDT. As a matter of fact, Mr. Chambers, I think the record
should show at this point that you did not come to this committee
voluntarily for the purpose of testifying against Mr. Hiss or anybody
else, but you are subpenaed without advance notice by the committee.
Is that correct ?
Mr. Chambers. I had been to what I considered to be the proper
governmental authorities at a much earlier date, and I had been in
connection with them on more than one occasion and more than one
agency. I could scarcely wish to jeopardize the position which I had
gained among the good men by such an appearance as this.
Nevertheless, I had long supposed it would come, and I decided
that when it came I would take the opportunity td act as I should.
Mr. MuNDT. In fact. I think that the present speaker was probably
the first person to advise the committee about the existence of Whit-
taker Chambers, and I got that information from a source which, due
to a very ridiculous and unsound Executive order, I cannot reveal, but
I hesitated even to suggest that you be subpenaed, but did so because I
felt that the country and the committee was entitled to all the informa-
tion available, and, as I said, when you testified — I know it is not an
easy job for a man in your position to testify as j^ou have, and I cer-
tainly hope that no ill comes to 3^011 for any true statements that you
have made before this committee, and this committee is going to con-
tinue to press forward to find out whether you have made any false
ones or whether Mr. Hiss is the gentleman who is falsifying.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chambers, did you ever have a conference with
Mr. Adolf Berle, who was the Under Secretary of State during this
underground apparatus ?
Mr. Chambers. I did.
Mr. Stripling. When was that?
Mr. Cha^ibers. That was. I originally testified, 2 days after the
Hitler-Stalin pact was signed. I now learn that it was 5 days after-
ward.
Mr. Stripling. Five davs after the Stalin-Hitler pact. That was
in 1939 ?
Mr. Chambers. 1939.
Mr. Stripling. And give the committee the circumstances of this
meeting with Mr. Berle.
Mr. Chambers. I had insisted that my testimony be made before
President Roosevelt ; I had insisted that my testimony be made to Presi-
dent Roosevelt. Mr. Isaac Don Levine, whom I had gone to see, went
1192 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
to the President's secretary, Mr. Marvin Mclntyre. Mr. Mclntyre
advised Mr. Levine that Mr. A. A. Berle, the Assistant Secretary of
State, was the President's man in matters of intelligence. Therefore,
Mr. Levine arranged a meetino; between Mr. Berle and me, which took
place at the home of the Secretary of War, Mr. Stimson.
Mr. SxRirLiNG. Do yon recall "the section of town or the address of
the home of the Secretary of War, Mr. Stimson ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; 1 believe it was on Woodley Koad.
Mr. Stripling. Go right ahead.
Mr. Chambers. Well, I have nothing to add.
Mr. Stripling. You went there. Did you have dinner with Mr.
Berle ?
Mr. Chambers. Oh, yes. You want me to tell you that?
Mr. Stripling. Yes ; I want you to give the committee the full de-
tails regarding your turning in this information to a responsible official
of the Federal Government.
Mr. Chambers. Mr. and Mrs. Berle and INIr. Levine and I had dinner
together, and I then laid before Mr. Berle in Mr. Levine's presence the
information which I have given this committee.
Mr. Stripling. Did you mention the name of Alger Hiss ?
Mr. Chambers. I mentioned the name of Alger Hiss and Donald
Hiss.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Nixon, did you take the testimony of Mr. Levine
in New York City on August 17 ?
Mr. Nixon. I took the testimony of Mr. Levine in New York City on
August'17, and I questioned him concerning this meeting about whicli
Mr. Chambers has just testified with Mr. Berle, and Mr. Levine testi-
fied, in effect — the testimony will be made public and, of course, will
speak for itself; but as I recall the testimony, Mr. Levine testified that
he did accompany Mr. Chambers when they had the discussion with
Mr. Berle; and when I asked him specifically as to the names that
were mentioned, Mr. Levine said that there was no question whatever
but what Mr. Chambers had mentioned the name of Mr. Alger Hiss
and the name of Mr. Donald Hiss.
I might also say that Mr. Levine submitted for the record a memo-
randum which he had made immediately after that meeting on the
stationery of the Hay-Adams House where he was staying, on which
these names, among others, were jotted down.
The Chairman. What was the date of the meeting at the Hay-Adams
House ?
Mr. Stripling. It was not at the Hay-Adams House.
The Chairman. What was the date of the meeting with Berle?
Mr. Stripling. He testified that it was 5 days after the signing of
the Hitler-Stalin pact in 1939.
What date was that, Mr. Mandel?
Mr. Mandel. August 26.
Mr. Stripling. It was August 26, 1939, on which the pact was
signed. August 26, 1939.
Mr. Chambers, going back for a moment to the occupancy by you
and your wife and child of the apartment on Twenty-eighth Street,
Mr. Hiss has testified that you spent several days in his home on P
Street, awaiting the furniture which was to come down by a van.
At that time, did you and your wife have any furniture ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1193
Mr. Chambers. We had so little furniture that it could scarcely be
called furniture.
Mr. Stripling. Had you previously lived at the home of your
mother ?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mv. Stripling. Did you have any furniture brought down by van or
otherwise?
Mr. Chami?ers. We did not.
Mr. MuNDT. Mr. Chambers, did you last see Mr. — was it J. V.
Peters?
Mr. Chambers. J. V. Peters, I believe.
Mr. MuNDT. What ?
Mr. Chambers. J. Peters.
Mr. INIfndt. When did you last see Mr. Peters ?
Mr. Chambers. Shortly before I broke. It was in the early 1938
period.
jVIr. MuNDT. Do you think you would be able to recognize Mr. J.
Peters?
Mr. Chambers, I would have no difficult}^ in recognizing Mr. J.
Peters,
Mr. MuNDT. I think you probably have been notified by the Com-
missioner of Immigration. Mr. Watson B. Miller — or will be — that
you are going to be called for the deportation hearings on Mr. J,
Peters for the purposes of identification.
Mr, Chambers. I expect I will.
Mr. MuNDT. And you think you can identify him if he is there?
Mr. Chambers. I have no doubt about it.
Mr. MuNDT. You have no doubt about it.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I have here a picture which was taken
off a passport of the person we think to be J. Peters, who traveled for
the Soviet Union on and under the name of Isidore Boorstein.
I show you this picture, ]\Ir. Chambers, and ask you if you can
identify it as being J. Peters [showing photograph to Mr. Chambers],
Mr, Chambers. That is J, Peters,
Mr. MuNDT. You say it is J. Peters ?
Mr. Chambers. It is.
Mr. MuNDT. You are sure of that ?
Mr. Chambers. I am sure of it,
Mr. MuNDT. You can recognize it from the photograph ?
Mr. Chambers. No doubt about it.
Mr, NixoN. Mr. Chambers, did Mr. Hiss know that your name was
Whittaker Chambers during the period that you knew him?
Mr. Chambers. No ; he did not.
Mr. Nixon. By what name did he know you?
Mr. Chambers. By the name of Carl,
Mr. Nixon. What did he call you ?
Mr. Chambers. Carl.
Mr. Nixon. Always?
Mr. Chambers. Always.
Mr. Nixon. What name did Mrs. Hiss call you by?
Mr. Chambers. Carl.
Mr, Nixon, She always called 3-011 Carl ?
Mr. Chambers, Always.
1194 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. And yon were not called by any other name while you
were with them, other than the name of Carl ?
Mr. Chambers. I was not.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know whether or not Mr. Hiss knew what your
real name was before your acquaintance with him ended ?
Mr. Chambers. Mr. or Mrs. Hiss, at that last meeting in 1938, told
me Peters had told them or the party had told them who I was, so I
assumed that they knew my name, my name AVhittaker Chambers.
Mr. Nixon. But they did not tell you what the name was?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. MuNDT. I think, in looking over this list of questions, Mr.
Chambers, that were proposed by Mr. Hiss or his counsel, that you
have answered all of them of any pertinency except perhaps for one
which was not asked, and that is the question No. 3, which reads :
What name were you given when you were born, and what names have you
used at any time since your birth for any purpose?
I woidd like to ask you those questions at this time.
What name were you given when you were born ?
Mr. Chambers. When I was born I was given the name J. Vivian
Chambers.
Mr. MuNDT. J. AVhittaker Chambers?
Mr. Chambers. J. Vivian Chambers.
Mr. MuNDT. I see. What names have you used at any time since
your birth, for that purpose ?
Mr. Chambers. Well, I came of age, I got rid of the "Vivian" as
quickly as possible.
Mr. MuNDT. I don't blame you for that.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Chambers. And I took my mother's family name of Whittaker.
I was baptized under that name. Other names I have used ?
Mr. MuNDT. Yes; what other names have you used at any time
since your birth for any purposes? You have testified that you went
by the name of Carl for a time.
Mr. Chambers. I was for a while named Dwyer.
Mr. MuNDT. Is that one of your Communist underground names ?
Mr. Chambers. Dwyer.
Mr. Stripling. Do you remember what period you used that name?
Mr. Chambers. Yes. I used it while I was living at Staten Island.
Mr. Stripling. While you were living on Staten Island.
Mr. MuNDT. Are there any other names ?
Mr. Chambers. I once used thenameof Cantwell.
Mr. MuNDT. Was that used also as one of your Communist under-
cover names ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; these were names that I lived under.
Mr. MuNDT. At the time you were a Communist?
Mr. Chambers. That is' right; while I was in the undergro\uid.
They were not my undercover names within the organization. The
name that I was known by to all the people in Washington, and the
only name I was known by was Carl.
Mr. MuNDT. Carl. In other words, these other names were names
you used to confuse people who were not Communists.
Mr. Chambers. Quite so.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1195
Mr. MuNDT. Did you ever use any pseudonyms or fictitious names
for any other purpose than simply to disguise your identity as a
Communist?
Mr. Chambers. I do not think so. I do not know whether I quite
understand the meaning of the question.
Mr. JNIuNDT, Well, I gather from Mr. Hiss that he was interested
in whether you had written under any assumed names.
Mr. Chambers. Now, wait. I do not believe I ever wrote under
assumed names.
Mr. Stripling, Did you ever write under the name of Crosley ?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. MuNDT. May I put the question as to whether at any time in
your life when yoii were not operating as a Communist did you use
the name of — any other name than Chambers ?
Mr. Chambers. When I was working for the street railway.
Mr. MuxDT. What name did you use ?
Mr. Chambers. I have forgotten. I used that name, and I did not
want
Mr. JNIuNDT. That is when you were laying railroad in the street
railway ?
Mr. Chambers. Of course, it was not the first street railroad in
Washington. It was a matter of a repair job, one that took a good
many years.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chambers, you were instructed when you appeared
before the committee on each occasion, as I recall, that the answers to
material questions if given false would subject you to perjury charges.
Mr. Chambers. I understood that.
Mr. Nixon. You understood that ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Now, you realize, in other words, that by reiterating
the charges that 3'ou have made previously today that these state-
ments also, if proved false, will subject you to perjury?
Mr. Chambers. I can do nothing about tha,t. I have only to tell
the truth.
Mr. Nixon. Do you wish — you do not wish to qualify the answers
that you have given because of that ?
Mr. Chambers. None that I have given so far. I might want to
make reservations in answering a question, but I have no qualifications.
Mr. Nixon. You want to stand by your testimony as you have given
it?
Mr. Chambers. Of course.
Mr. Nixon. That is all.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chambers, have you requested anj^ copy of any
testimony that you have given before the committee in executive ses-
sion or otherwise ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; I have not.
Mr. Stripling. Did I communicate with you and ask you if you
wanted your executive session testimony which you gave in New York ?
Mr. Chambers. I am not sure whether you did or not. In any case,.
I did not want it.
Mr. Stripling. You did not want it?
Mr. Chambers. I did not need it.
1196 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. MuNDT. Have you requested counsel to appear with you?
Mr. Chambers. No ; of course not.
The Chairman. Do you have any more questions, Mr. Stripling?
Mr. Stripling. Yes ; I have a few questions about the apartment of
Henry Collins. But Mr. Hebert wants to ask some questions.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Chambers, let me make myself perfectly clear be-
fore I ask you any questions.
You look to me just like anybody else before this committee, and if
I can impeach your testimony, I will do it, because I am only seeking
the truth, and what I am trying to tell you is this, that as far as I
am concerned, there is no such thing as a committee witness. By that,
I mean there are no witnesses, so far as I am concerned, who are
going to be put on this stand to prove what some members of the
committee think or might think. I am only interested in finding out
the facts and the truth in the case.
I told Mr. Hiss that also in executive session last Monday, and I will
try just as hard to impeach you to find out whether you are lying
or not, as I will Mr. Hiss or anybody else.
I want to make myself perfectly clear before I start asking you
these questions.
Now, let us take it chronologically.
How old are you now ?
Mr. Chambers. I am now 47.
Mr. Hebert. Where were you born?
Mr. Chambers. I was born in Philadelphia.
Mr. Hebert. What year?
Mr. Chambers. 1901.
Mr. Hebert. What were your parents' names ?
Mr. Chambers. My father's name was J. Chambers, and my
mother's name was A.. Chambers.
Mr. Hebert. What business was your father in ?
Mr. Chambers. My father was a commercial artist.
Mr. Hebert. Where did you go to school ?
- Mr. Chambers. I went to school in Lynbrook, Long Island, and
Rockville Centre, Long Island.
"Mr. Hebert. When clid you move to Long Island ?
Mr. Chambers. My family moved when I was perhaps 2 or 3 years
old. and they still live in the same house.
Mr. Hebert. Your father and mother still live?
Mr. Chambers. My mother. My father is dead. My mother still
lives in the same house.
Mr. Hebert. Your mother still lives in the same house. What
school did you go to?
Mr. Chambers. I went to a school called South Side High School.
Mr. Hebert. Public school. Where did you go to high school?
Mr. Chambers. Rockville Centre.
Mr. Hebert. What was the name of the school ?
Mr. Chambers. South Side High School.
Mr. Hebert. Where did you go to college ?
Mr. Chambers. I went for a short time to Columbia University.
Mr. Hebert. How long?
Mr. Chambers. I think for 2 years.
Mr. Hebert. What did you study?
Mr. Chambers. Liberal arts.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1197
Mr. Hebert. How did you become a writer?
Mr. Chambers. Impulse, I guess.
Mr. Hebert. You never had any formal training as a journalist?
Mr. Chambers. No, I did not.
Mr. Hebert. In so-called schools of journalism?
]Mr. Chambers. No, I did not.
Mr. Hebert. Tlien, you just wrote by impulse?
Mr. Chambers. I wrote because I felt a need to write.
Mr. Hebert. Because you wanted to write?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. Hebert. Did you ever have any journalistic employment out-
side of Time magazine ?
Mr. Chambers. Only on the Daily Worker, New Masses.
Mr. Hebert. The first time you wrote a public article was for the
Daily Worker?
Mr. Chambers. I believe so.
Mr. Hebert. You wrote it under the name of Whittaker Chambers?
Mr. Chambers. I do not believe they were signed.
Mr. Hebert. They were not signed. But, of course, it is a common
practice among journalists and reporters to use pseudonyms and nom
de plumes, and other names.
Mr. Chambers. I never did use those names.
Mr. Hebert. You never did use that, but that is a common practice.
Mr. Chambers. It is.
Mr. Hebert. Then, from the Daily Worker you went to Time maga-
zine. Now, you are not in the Communist Party then ?
Mr. Chambers. I was in the Communist Party all that period.
Mr. Hebert. What were the circumstances surrounding your em-
ployment by Time magazine ?
Mr. Chambers. I do not quite understand the question,
Mr. Hebert. Did you just walk in there and tell the man, "Here
I am for a job. I want to work for you"? How did you get the
job on Time?
Mr. Chambers. No; I had a friend at Time. ■
Mr. Hebert. Who was the friend?
Mr. Chambers. Eobert Cantwell.
Mr. Hebert. And you went to him and told him you would like
to work on Time ?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. Hebert. Wliat position did you start in on at Time?
Mr. Chambers. As a writer.
Mr. Hebert. At what salary?
Mr. Chambers. It is very hard for me to remember.
Mr. Hebert. What year was that?
Mr. Chambers. 1939.
Mr. Hebert. In 1939?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Robert Cantwell had you employed by Time just
as a writer ?
Mr. Chambers. Well, he did not have me employed.
Mr. Hebert. Well, you went to him?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. Hebert. And then you steadily rose to be a writer on Time,
and to what is known now as the senior editor ?
1198 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Chambeks. That is right.
Mr. Hebert. That is the highest editorial position that you can
rise to on Time ?
Mr. Chambers. Next to the highest.
Mr. Hebekt. What is the highest?
Mr, Chambers. Managing editor.
Mr. Hebert. How many senior editors are there on Time ?
Mr. Chambers. I think six.
Mr. Hebert. What is your salary now ?
Mr. Chambers. My salary is about $25,000 a year.
Mr. Hebert. And since 1939 to 1948 you rose from just the regu-
lar routine writer on Time ■
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. Hebert. To be a senior editor on Time at a salary of $25,000
a year ?
Mr. Chambers. That is true.
Mr. Hebert. Can you search your mind at this time and tell this
committee what possible motives you could have in jeopardizing
your position on Time by making the statements that you are making?
Of course, you realize that if they are false, you are finished.
Mr, Chambers. I could not imagine such a motive. Besides, it is
not just my position on Time.
Mr. Hebert. What is that, please?
Mr. Chambers. What I am jeopardizing is not just my position
on Time. It is my position in the community.
Mr. Hebert. Because you feel that you could get another position
anyway ?
Mr. Chambers. Well, I could very likely make a living.
Mr, Hebert, I think a man making $25,000 a year writing pieces
could make a living some place. Then, there is no motive tliat you
can possibly suggest to this committee that you would have then to
defame i\\e character of an individual w^io is highly respected, such
as Alger Hiss.
IMr. Chambers. I would have no such motive with respect to
anyone.
Mr. Hebert. You said you were born J. Vivian Chambers.
Mr. Chambers. That is correct.
Mv. Hebert. Then, I understood you to say that j^ou were baptized
Whittaker Chambers.
Mr, Chambers. That is right,
Mr. Hebert. What is the differentiation ? You were born J. Vivian
Chambers.
Mr. Chambers. I was given the name legally at birth, or shortly
afterward. And I was later baptized.
ISIr. Hebert. In which church?
Mr. CHA]vn5ERS. In the Episcopalian Church, of which I was a
member.
Mr. Hebert. Are you a member of any church?
Mr. Chambers. I am.
Mr. Hebert, What church?
Mr. Chambers. I am a Quaker.
Mr. Hebert, You are now a Quaker?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. Mrs. Hiss is a Quaker.
COMMUNIST ESPIONACxE 1199
Mr. Chambers. She is a birthright Quaker.
Mr. Hebert. You are what?
Mr. Chambers. I am a Quaker by convincement.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Hebert, may I interpose there? Mr. Chambers
means by ''birthright Quaker"' that is — his testimony is that Mrs.
Hiss was born a Quaker, her parents were Quakers, whereas a Quaker
by convincement means that he became one and his parents are not
Qiuakers.
Mr. Hebert. In other words, we would say a Quaker who would be
a convert to the Quaker faith.
Mr. MuxDT. 1 think the record should show that Mr. Nixon is a
Quaker, so he speaks with authority.
Mr. Hebert. Now, Mr. Chambers, you heard Mr. Hiss on the stand
here today, all day lone-. What is your reaction to his denials?
Mr. Chambers. Mr. Hiss is lying.
Mr. Hebert. Mr. Hiss is lying? In other words, his story is a pure
fabrication out of the whole cloth?
Mr. Chambers. I would say that it is 80 percent at least fabrication.
Mr. Hebert. He never knew you by any other name except Carl?
Mr. Chambers. I do not believe so.
Mr. Hebert. And you became attached to him in a personal way
through your activities in the Communist Party with Mr. Hiss?
Mr. Chambers. That is true.
Mr. Hebert. Now, referring back to these questions, in order that
we may have the record right, perhaps it may be repetitious, Mr.
Chairman, but let us get it straight, that Mr. Hiss is asking these to be
asked, and I will ask them to be sure there has been no deviation from
them.
No. 1. Where do you reside? That has already been explained and
we will not press that.
No. 2. List the various places where you have lived since 1930, indi-
cating the length of time you lived at each place, and the name you have
used at that place. Mr. Nixon has questioned you in that connection
with them and you endeavored to give that.
Would you search your memory and supply the committee with
the answer to that question?
Mr. Chambers. I will be happy to.
Mr. Hebert. What name were you given when you were born?
What names have you used at any time since your birth for any pur-
pose? You have answered that.
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. No. 4, Give your complete employment record during
your membership in the Communist Party, and since your resignation
from the Communist Party, stating the name of your employer, your
occupation, and your compensation. Also state the name by which you
were emplo3'ed in each instance. You have given that.
No. 5, Give a complete bibliography of your writings under any
and everv name vou have used. You have given that.
No. 6. Have you ever been charged or convicted of a crime? Give
full particulars as to where, when, and for what. I put particular
emphasis on this because this indicates a record that can be checked.
Mr. Hiss seems interested in records. Have you ever been charged
or convicted of a crime?
*]\Ir. Chambers. No.
1200 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Hebert. No. 7, I asked you in New York whether you were
ever treated for a mental disease, and you told me "No" at that time,
and repeated it today.
Mr. Chambers. I urged the committee to check all possible records.
Mr. Hebert. Well, if you were, the committee could easily find it
out.
Mr. Chambers. Very easily.
Mr. Hebert. No. 8, When, where, and to whom were you married'^
You have given that.
Mr. Chambers. Well, I think I did.
Mr. Hebert. That is that.
Mr. Chambers. I think I did.
Mr. Hebert. Have you any children ? Do you now reside with your
wife? You have answered that.
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Hebert. No. 9, Describe the circumstances under which you
came in contact with the committee, and make public all written
memoranda which you have handed to any representative of the com-
mittee. You have also answered that.
Now, there is one additional charge which Mr. Hiss makes in his
written letter which he gave to the press last evening, and which
appeared in the paper today, and which we again heard read before
the committee, and that was the fact that you are a confessed liar, a
confessed traitor, whose word cannot be taken. By "confessed liar"
I presume ne means your activity in the Communist Party. By
"confessed traitor" I think he refers to the fact that as a member
of the Communist Party you were a traitor to your country.
Mr. Chambers. Perhaps he means that as a renegade from the Com-
munist Party I was a traitor to the Communist Party.
Mr. Hebert. You are almost as quick on your feet as Mr. Hiss.
Now, Mr. Chambers, with that background, and let us acknowledge,
let us for the sake of the moment, say that Mr. Hiss is correct in that
you have been a traitor to your country, and I think you admitted that
in your opening hearing the first time we heard you, you admitted
frankly that you knew what you were doing, and then had a change of
mind, and decided to be loyal to your country, and do Avhat you could
to make amends, and your knowledge and your education of history
and religion. Isn't it a fact that there are many saints in Heaven
today who were not always saints ?
Mr. Chambers. I believe so.
Mr. Hebert. We would not take their sainthood away from them
after they have become saints and repented, not saying, you under-
stand, that you are a saint, now mind you.
Mr. Chambers. I am not a saint, indeed.
Mr. Hebert. But I want to draw the analogy and I want to draw
the logical conclusion, and the inferences given. Do you know of any
time that the committee or anybody else could learn of Communists
through a Communist himself who was loyal to the party?
Mr. Chambers. No ; it is impossible.
Mr. Hebert. Isn't the only method that we have of ferreting out
these Communists is through people like yourself who repent and come
to us and tell us their story?
Mr. Chambers. I think so, sir.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1201
Mr. Hep,ert. There is no other way. Do you know any police de-
partment in this country that is an efficient police department that
does not operate without the assistance of informers ?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. Hebert. If it is a good police department, they rely a good
deal on informers, do they not ?
Mr, Chambers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hebert. So, therefore, Mr. Chairman, I make this observation,
that let's admit the witness was what he admits frankly that he has
been. But let us also recognize the fact that he has had the change
of heart, and in himself has the courage to come before us to give us
this information, and that, without prejudging whether you or Mr.
Hiss are telling the truth at this time, because I would like to check
more of what you said, too, to determine which one of you is telling
the truth. That is all, Mr. Chairman,
The Chair:\ean. Mr. Vail.
]Mr. Vail, 1 have no questions.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDo-WT.LL. I have a very general question. Mr. Chairman,
this very difficult and very sinister matter before us appears to me as
being built up on very small things, going all the w^ay from the gift
of Mr. Hiss of an old jalopy to Mr. Chambers, with a loan of Mr.
Mr. Chambers testified to, and reaching all the way up to the man
Avho wrote the Yalta agreement, which we feel here in America is now
responsible for our difficulties in Europe.
Somewhere along the line of the testimony it was testified that
Mr. Chambers was a bird lover and Mr. Hiss is identified — he has
identified himself as an amateur ornkhologist.
I might say, Mr. Chairman, that so is the chairman of the committee,
a bird lover, at least. That in order to
The Chairman. Well, we have got a Quaker and a bird lover.
Mr. McDowell. In order to further tlie intimacy with which these
men had with each other, I would like to refer to the testimony of both
of them.
Mr. Chambers has testified in executive session that Mr. Hiss and
Mrs. Hiss were bird lovers, as was he, and it was their custom in
the few spare moments they got here in Washington, to observe the
l>irds and to go bird watching.
I would like to point out, Mr. Chairman, that, as you well know, to
discover a rare bird or an unusital bird or identify a bird that many
other joeople have seen is a great discovery in the life of an amateur
ornithologist. You can usually recall almost everything around it.
It is like winning the ball game or the yacht regatta. You can recall
the time of day, how high the sun was, and all the other things.
But it was testified to by both Mr. Chambers and Mr. Hiss that on
one occasion, the three of them, walking together, saw a small bird
called a prothonotaiy warbler.
Mr. Stripling. No; that is not the testimony, Mr. McDowell. If
you like for me to look it up, I will be glad to do so.
Mr. McDow^ELL. If I recall the testimony, it was testified to that she
?;> w a prothonotary warbler on their walk,
Mr. Stripling. The testimony, Mr. McDowell — and I will be glad
TO refer to it — Mr, Chambers testified before the executive session in
80408 — 48—45
1202 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
New York that Mr. Hiss had tokl him that he and Mrs. Hiss had taken
a walk on the Chesapeake & Ohio Canal in Washington down the
Potomac.
Mr. McDowell. That is all right. Now, I would like Mr. Chambers
to just briefly describe what he told the subcommittee that day. That
will be the whole question.
Mr. Chambers. I think I told them that Mr. Hiss was fond of going
bird walking out toward Glen Echo, out on the Potomac, across the
canal. One morning, Mr. Hiss told me he saw a prothonotary warbler,
which is a very beautiful bird, rather an unusual one. I do not recall
that I told anything else about it.
Mr. McDowell. That is all.
Mr. Stripling. For the record, will the witness spell prothonotary?
Mr. Chambers. P-r-o-t-h-o-n-o-t-a-r-y.
The Chairman. How many members can you estimate were in the
Communist underground in Washington?
Mr. Chambers. It would be difficult for me to say. I knew a rela-
tively small handful. There were behind them others, and I do not
know how many. There were also parallel apparatuses; that is, other
apparatuses operating independently to the one that I knew. There
were, perhaps, several of them. I do not know, but I have reason to
think there were perhaps more than one.
The Chairman. And were those members in the Communist under-
ground mostly in the Government service?
^Ir. Chambers. I think that they were, most of them, in the Govern-
ment service.
The Chairman. Would you say they were in. ajny special agency or
were they in all the agencies?
Mr. Chambers. I think the preponderance were in the New Deal
agencies.
The Chairman. Well, that would cover quite a few. I mean by
that, were there in, we will say, the AVar Department or the Navy
Dejjartment or
Mr. Chambers. No; I cannot offhand tell you that. I do not know
anyone who was in War and Navy.
The Chairman. What agencies would you* include?
Mr. Chambers. That is a very tough one because I cannot remember
the names of the New Deal agencies. There were some in the AAA at
one time. Mr. Hiss was in the AAA at one time. Lee Pressman was
in AAA. Donald Hiss was in the Labor Department, I believe, the
Immigration Service. Nathan Witt was in the National Labor Rela-
tions Board. I forget where Kramer was. Collins was in the
Department
The Chairman. I do not think T made myself clear. What I
wanted to find out was what agency of the Government or agencies of
the Government had most of these members of the Communist under-
ground? Were they mostly in any one agency or were they scattered
over a number of agencies?
Mr. Chambers. No; I think they were widely scattered.
The Chairman. What was the contact between the Communist
underground and (he Communist Party in the District of Columbia?
Mr. Chambers. The groups that I kiiew had their contacts through
me, through Peters, and that contact was kept as sketchy as possible.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1203
The Chairman'. And was the Communist Party under the discipline "
of the Communist underground here ?
Mr. CiiAJMBERS. The Communist underground ^Yas under Commu-
aiist discipline.
The Chairman. AYell, Avho was on top, the Communist Party func-
tionaries or the Communist underground?
Mr. Chambers. Well, they operated side by side, without very great
contact for obvious reasons. But, the head of the underground was
J. Peters. Peters was, I believe, a member of the central committee of
the Commimist Party. I may be mistaken about that. Therefore, on
that level he had contacts with the top of the Communist Party.
The Chairmax. And on the question of espionage, would J. Peters
dictate to members of the Communist Party or members of the Com-
nuinist underground just what material, what information was re-
quired?
Mr. Chambers. Well, he did not, to my knowledge.
The Chairman. He did not?
Mr. Chambers. No.
The Chairman. Who would do that in Washington ?
Mr. Chambers. That I do not know.
The Chairman. Now, to get back to New Jersey, when you lived
up in Glen Gardner, that was in what year, did j^ou say?
Mr. Chambers. 1932, I think: probably, perhaps, 1931, too.
The Chairman. And I have forgotten what the record shows, but
were you a member of the Communist Party at that time ?
Mr. Chambers. I think it was that period of about a year or two
when I Avas out of the Communist Party. I was in for— I went out in
about 1929 and I came back in again.
The Chairman. Where did you live outside of Glen Gardner?
Mr. Chambers. I lived on a farm.
The Chairman. Where?
Mr. Chambers. About 6 miles from Glen Gardner.
The Chairman. Can you locate that farm ?
Mr. Chambers. We]l,'all I can locate— I do not know whether I can
locate it exactly now. In fact, I have forgotten about it.
The Chairman. But you do not remember what road it was on?
Mr. Chambers. I do not.
The Chairman. What influenced you to join the Communist Party
originally?
Mr. Chambers. It is a very difficult question. As a student, I went
to Europe. It was then shortly after the First World War. I found
Germany in chaos, and partly occupied; northern France, and parts of
Belgium were smashed to pieces. It seemed to me that a crisis had
been reached in western civilization which the society was not al)le to
solve by the usual means.
I then began to look around for the unusual means.
I first studied for a considerable time British Fabian socialism, and
lejectecl it as unworkable in practice.
I was then very much influenced bv a book called Reflections on
Violence, by George Sorrel, a syndicalist, and shortly thereafter I
came out to the writings of Marx and Lenin. Thev seemed to me to
explain the nature of the crisis, and what to do about it.
The Chairman. Well, I can understand how a young man might
join the Communist Party, but will you explain to us how a person
1204 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
who has made a real living in this country, a person with a large
income, some of the witnesses we have had before this committee, over
a period of time, what, in your mind, would influence them to join
the party here in this country?
Mr. Chambers, The making of a good living does not necessarily
bind a man to a critical period in which he is passing through. Such
people, in fact, may feel a special insecurity and anxiety. They seek
a moral solution in a world of moral confusion.
Marxism, Leninism offers an oversimplified explanation of the causes
and a program for action. The very vigor of the project particularly
appeals to the more or less sheltered middle-class intellectuals, who
feel that there the whole context of their lives has kept them away
from the world of reality.
I do not know whether I make this very clear, but I am ti ying to
get at it. They feel a very natural concern, one might almost say a
Christian concern, for underprivileged people. They feel a great in-
tellectual concern, at least, for recurring economic crises, the ])roblem
of war, which in our lifetime has assumed an atrocious proportion, and
which always weights on them. What shall I do ? At that crossroads
the evil thing, communism, lies in waiting for a simple answer.
The Chairman. Then you mentioned the strict discipline within the
party itself. That discipline is probably even more strict in time of
war than in time of peace, is it not?
Mr. Chambers. It might be ; it is always strict.
The Chairman. Yes; and a Communist would have to blindly exe-
cute any order given to him.
Mr. Chambers. Yes; they would.
The Chairman. Then would you not say that every Communist in
the United States — and this has been asked other witnesses from time
to time — every Communist in the United States would be a probable
spy or saboteur ? '
Mr. Chambers. Every Communist in the United States is a potential
spy or saboteur and a permanent enemy of this system of government.
The Chairman. Would a Communist — if a Communist remained,
wanted to remain in good standing with the party, could a Commu-
nist disobey one of those orders to bring about some sabotage ? Could
a Communist do anything but do the thing that was for the good of
Hussia in time of war?
Mr. Chambers. Well, the Communist Party makes human allow-
ances also. It might not assassinate a man because he failed to carry
out an order the first time. Nevertheless, the substance of what you
are saying is correct.
The Chairman. But you believe that if this country got into a war
with Russia that every Communist w^ould be an ardent member of the
Russian fifth column.
Mr. Chambers. In a war with Russia, I think a certain number of
Communists would have a sudden revulsion, and perhaps break away,
but the mass of the party would be a fifth column.
The Chairman. From your own experience and knowledge of the
party, how well do you think the investigative of the Government,
€ven including this committee, have got a line on the number and kind
of Communists in this country?
Mr. Chambers. Well, it is quite impossible for me to answer that.
I really do not know.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1205
The CiiAiRiArAN. Well, do you think we are keeping up with the
business, or do you think communism is gaining in this country?
Mr. Chambers. I think undoubtedly in the last few years consid-
erable strides have been made to control it, and what is perhaps quite
as important a problem is understanding it. It seems to me that this
committee is getting toward the heart of the matter at this point.
The Chairman. Getting what?
jNIr. CiiAMKEits. Toward the heart of the matter at this point. That
should not blind anyone to the knowledge that there are groups be-
yond groups, beyond' groups, beyond groups. Nevertheless, progress is
being made. .
The Chairman. Who would you say is the leading Communist m the
United States today ?
Mr. Chambers. I really do not know.
The Chairman. That is all I have.
Mr. Mundt.
Mr. Mundt. You testified that you visited Alger Hiss probably
fortnightly over a period of 1 or 2 years in 1935 and 1936, 1 believe it
was— mavbe it was 1936 and 1937— and talking to him about his prog-
ress in tliis Avar group toward strategic spots, collecting Communist
dues from him, and what not.
At that time when you were having these fortnightly conferences
with Mr. Hiss, were you living then in Washington or New York, or
where were you living?
Mr. Chambers. I was probably living at one time in New York,
staying in Washington at the Hisses or in Baltimore.
Mr. Mundt. When you lived in Baltimore or New York, did you
live there known among your neighbors by the name of Carl ?
Mr. Chaimbers. No.
Mr. Mundt. What is that ? Under what name ?
Mr. Chambers. Whittaker Chambers.
Mr. Mundt. The only place where you used the name Carl then
was in your Washington Communist contacts?
Mr. Chambers, In those Washington groups.
Mr. Mundt. From your knowledge of communism is it possible for
a committee like this, or any other agency of Government, or a court
of law, to prove conclusively whether a man is or is not a Communist.
without access to the files of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Chambers. It is extremel}^ difficult, I think.
Mr. Mundt. And from your knowledge as a high functionary in
the Communist Party, is it the general practice of that party to con-
ceal from the non-Communist world the identity of its members, after,
of course, they are members, so that when witnesses come before this
committee, as they so frequently do, and deny under oath that they
are Communists, they can do that without difficulty and with com-
parative impunity, even though they are, in fact, Communists? Is
that right?.
Mr. Chambers. That is true.
Mr. Mundt, From your knowledge of the Communist operations
in Washington in Government where you were contact man for a
period of years, would it be your belief that Communist cells are still
functioning in Government now or that they have terminated them
at the conclusion of the war ?
1206 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Chambers. It is unquestionable that they are still functioning
in Government, and will continue to function until they are rooted
out. It may be during- a period like this when a number of investi-
gative agencies are looking into the matter, they are resting on their
oars for a while, but they remain in being.
Mr. MuNDT. But it would be your firm conviction that they are
here, and will stay here until they are ferreted out by hearings like
this, or by the FBI, or by grand jury proceedings, or some other
legal methods ?
Mr. Chambers. .Certainly.
Mr. MuNDT. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixox. I have nothing.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. I have no further questions.
The Chairman. Are there any more questions of Mr. Whittaker
Chambers ?
You are excused then, Mr. Chambers.
And you are excused, Mr. Hiss.
The committee stands adjourned, and the committee will meet in
executive session at 10 : 30 tomorrow, and there wall be no public
hearing tomorrow.
(Whereupon, at 8 p. m., the committee adjourned.)
HEARINGS KECtARDINCt COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
THURSDAY, AUGUST 26. 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Special Subcom^niittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington., D. C .
executive session *^
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 4 p. m.. in room 226,
Old House Office Building, Hon, John McDowell presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives John McDovrell
(presiding), Richard M. Nixon, and Richard B. Vail.
Staff members present: Robert E, Stripling, chief investigator;
Louis J. Russell, investigator; and A. S. Poore, editor, for the com-
mittee.
Mr. McDowell. The committee will be in order.
The record will show that the subcommittee is sitting to take testi-
mony, further testimony, on matters concerning espionage in the
Government.
The record will show that those in-esent are Mr. Nixon, Mr. Vail,
Mr. McDowell, Mr. Stripling, ]\[r. Russell, and Mrs. Poore.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give the com-
mittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
Mr. Rosen. I do.
Mr. Russell. What is vour present address, Mr. Rosen?
Mr. Rosen. I live at 2020 Shepherd Street NE.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM EOSEN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
MAURICE BRAVEEMAN
]Mr. Russell. What is vour business address?
Mr. Rosen. 2009 Bunker Hill Road NE.
Mr. Russell. When and where were you born, Mr. Rosen?
Mr. Rosen. I was born in Austria, I think it is 1884.
Mr, Russell. What day?
Mi;. Rosen, March, some da}' ; I do not remember exactly, I have
not got a record of that.
INIr. Russell. March 30 ?
Mr. Rosen. I think it is March 30 ; yes.
Mr. Russell. You say you were born in Austria ?
" Testimony taken in executive session and made public with this printing.
1207
1208 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. E.OSEN. Well, it is a province that belonged to Austria at that
time. It is Galicia.
Mr. Russell. Galicia.
Mr. Stripling. Before we proceed, I would like for counsel to iden-
tify himself.
Mr. Braverman. My name is Maurice Braverman.
Mr. McDowell. Your name is Avhat 'I
Mr. Braverman. Braverman. just as you hear it. I am an attorney,
practicing before the bar of Maryland, before the Federal courts of
Maryland, and have been admitted to the Fourth United States Cir-
cuit Court, that is at Richmond; and have been practicing law for a
period of 7 years, actively engaged in the practice of law in Balti-
more, Md.
Mr. Stripling. What is your address?
Mr. McDowell. What is your address?
Mr. Braverman. 15 South Gay Street.
]\Ir. McDowell. Are you a member of a firm ?
Mr. Braverman. No ; I am practicing entirely for myself.
Mr. Nixon. Before the witness goes on. I think it would be well to
instruct him, Mr. Chairman, as to the type of questions that we are
going to put to him during this hearing.
Mr. McDowell. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. This is a hearing of the subcommittee of the Committee
on Un-American Activities. It involves matters in which the com-
mittee has been designated by the Congress to investigate. Every
question that will be asked you during this hearing will be material
to this inquiry, and a false answer to any question will subject you
to the penalties of perjury.
Proceed.
Mr. Braverman. May I interrupt for just 1 second?
Mr. McDowell. Yes!
Mr. Braverman. The members of the committee present are ]Mr.
Nixon ; is that correct ?
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Nixon, Mr. Vail. My name is McDowell. This
gentleman is j\Ir. Stripling.
Mr. Braverman. I have seen his picture in the newspaper.
Mr. McDowell. He is the chief investigator, and this is Mr. Louis
Russell.
Mr. Braverman. I have it now.
Mr. McDowell. I would like to advise counsel that he will confine
himself to advising his client on constitutional matters, on his consti-
tutional protection, and under no circumstances to advise him as to
the kind of answers to make, or what answers to make.
All right, Mr. Russell.
Mr. Russell. When did vou enter the Thiited States?
Mr. Rosen. December 1001.
Mr. Russell. What port did you enter ?
Mr. Rosen. In New York.
Mr. Russell. Are you a naturalized citizen of the United States?
Mr. Rosen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Russell. Where were you naturalized?
Mr. Rosen. Norfolk, Va.
Mr. Russell. What j^ear ?
Mr. Rosen. 1910.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1209
Mr. Ku.ssELL. Are you married?
Mr. Rosen. Yes, sir.
• Mr. Russell. What is your wife's name ?
Mr. Rosen. Addie.
Mr. Russell. How many children do yon have ?
Mr. Rosen. I have four children, all in the last war.
Mr. Russell. Will yon name them ?
Mr. Rosen. The first one is Lionel Milton Rosen ; then, I have twins :
One is Eupjene Rosen and the other is Cyril Rosen. The youngest is
William Herbert Rosen.
Mr. Russell. When did you first come to Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Rosen. I am here since 1941.
Mr. Rl^ssELL. Were you in Washington before that?
Mr. Rosen. Yes ; I was here a year a half in 1927 to 1928, beginning
1927, and 1928.
Mr. Russell. Where did vou live in 1927, 1928?
Mr. Rosen. What is that?
Mr. Russell. Where did vou live in 1927 and 1928 ?
Mr. Rosen. Todd Place NE.
Mr. Russell. No. 3222 ^
Mr. Rosen. I do not remember.
Mr. Russell. Do you subscribe to the Daily Worker ?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that any
answer that I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Russell. Does your family receive the Daily Worker under
the name Rose Barone ?
Mr. Rosen. The statement stands for this answer, too.
Mr. Stripling. I did not understand yon.
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question.
Mr. McDowell. On what grounds?
Mr. Rosen. On the grounds that it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Are you a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Rosen. The same thing goes for this question, too.
Mr. McDowell. State j^our reason for your refusal to answer.
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer on the ground that anv answer I
might give to the question might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever buy a 1929 Ford automobile?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the grounds that any
answer I might give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Nixon. How?
Mr. Stripling. How would the purchase of a 1929 automobile in-
criminate you ? The committee has no objection to a witness specify-
ing protection against self-incrimination if it is plausible that it might
incriminate him. The purchase of a motor vehicle has nothing to do
with incrimination that I know of. Would you set forth your reasons ?
Mr. Rosen. I do not want to go into all the details, and the only
reason I can say is that it might bring out something else and it may
involve me into answers that might incriminate me after.
Mr. Nixon. Now, Mr, Rosen and counsel, I want you to listen care-
fully. You may refuse to answer questions on the ground of self-
incrimination. It is possible that the answer given might involve
you in a crime, but this committee is unable to see how any answer
concerning whether or not you purchased a 1929 automobile could
involve you in a crime, particularly since any crime that could be
1210 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
involved in the purchase of such a car would now be outlawed by the
statute of limitations.
I will instruct you further that if you refuse to answer a question-
concerning a 1929 automobile on the grounds of self-incrimination
and if the committee comes to the conclusion that no crime could be
involved, that" it will be the duty of this committee to cite you for
contempt of Congress.
Now, I ask you again : Did you purchase a 1929 Ford automobile i
Mr. Rosen. Will you permit me to consult with my attorney?
Mr. Nixon. You may consult with your counsel.
(Mr. Rosen and Mr. Braverman confer.)
Mr. Rosen. I stand on my statement and refuse to answer the ques-
tion on the ground that any answer I may give may tend to incrim-
inate me.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Nixon, before you proceed any further with
that, could Mr. Russell ask a few more questions for the record.
Mr. NixoN. Certainly.
Mr. Russell. In 1940, Mr. Rosen, did you reside on Taylor
Place NE. ?
Mr. Rosen. I came here in 1911 — June 1. 1941.
Mr. Russell. The question was: Did you reside during the year
1940 on Taylor Place NE. ?
If you did not, say you did not.
' Mr. Rosen. I did not.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever operated a ladies* dress shop in Wash-
ington, D. C. ?
Mr. Rosen. Did I have a dress shop ?
Mr. Russell. That is right.
Mr. Rosen. In 1927.
Mr. Russell. What was the name of that dress shop ?
Mr. Rosen. La Rose.
Mr. Russell. Did you at one time operate a store which had the
trade name Maison, M-a-i-s-o-n, Blanche, B-1-a-n-c-h-e?
Mr. Rosen. Yes ; in 1927.
Mr. Russell. Did you operate two stores in 1927?
Mr. Rosen. No ; I gave ujd the Maison store and a nephew of mine
bought the store on Fourteenth Street, and I was manager of the store.
Mr. Russell. Was your wife Addie connected with you in that
business ?
Mr. Rosen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Russell. During the year 1936, did you visit Washington^
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer the question on account that the
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. McDowell. What was the question?
Mr. Russell. Did he during the year 1936 visit Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Nixon. Where were you living in 1936, Mr. Rosen?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer these questions.
Mr. McDowell. How in the world is that going to
Mr. Nixon. Let him say on what grounds.
Mr. Rosen. On the grounds that any answer may tend to incriminate
me.
Mr. McDowell. How in the world is that going to incriminate you ?
You are a citizen of the United States. You surely couldn't have
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1211
spent a life in crime. If all the activities of your past life were to
become known, most certainly they couldn't involve you in a crime.
We are beginning to get weary of Communists coming here and
declining questions on the ground of possible self-incrimination.
There hasn't been a citation for contempt here for some time, but 1
feel there are some coming.
' Mr. Nixox. I will sa}- that anything that occurred in 1936, except
treason, w^ould be outlawed by the statute of limitations, and that
means that the defense of self-incrimination would not be a defense,
and if this witness insists on not answering those questions I for one
will insist on his being cited for contempt.
Where were you living in 1936?
Mr. RosEX. Can I consult with my counsel ?
Mr. Nixox. You can consult with your counsel; yes.
(Mr. Rosen and jMr. Braverman confer.)
Mr. RosEx. In 1936 I lived in New York, 638 West One Hundred
and Sixtieth Street.
• Mr. Xixox. Did 3^ou visit Washington in 1936 ?
Mr. RosEX^. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that any
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Vail. Mr. Rosen, were you a Communist Party organizer in
1936?
Mr. RosEX. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that any
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Nixox. Mr. Rosen, do you know Benjamin Bialek?
Mr. RosEX. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that any
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Striplixg. He either knows him or doesn't know him.
Mr. Nixox. Now, the witness can tell this committee whether he
knows Mr. Bialek or not. If the witness insists on refusing to answer
pertinent questions which couldn't possibly incriminate him. we are
going to have to cite you for contempt, and I want you to know that;
and I suggest, counsel, you advise him on that.
You cannot come before this committee and use that simply as a
dodge for the purpose of refusing to give this committee information
to which it is entitled.
Now, do you know Benjamin Bialek?
You may consult with your counsel.
Mr. Striplixg. Spell it for him.
Mr. Nixox. B-i-a-1-e-k.
(Mr. Rosen and Mr. Braverman confer.)
Mr. RosEX. I still refuse to answer that question on the ground
that any answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Nixox. I show you this picture. Look at it, please.
Have you ever seen that man before ?
Mr. RosEX. I will answer that I have never seen him.
Mr. Nixox. You have never seen him ?
Mr. RosEX. No.
Mr. Nixox. Do you know J. Peters ?
Mr. Bra\t>r>iax. May I ask who the picture is?
Mr. Nixox. I will ask him some questions.
Do you know J. Peters ?
Mr. RosEX. Never heard of him, never seen him, don't know him.
Mr. Nixox. Do vou know Isidore Boorstein ?
1212 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Rosen. I am sorry ; I do not.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know Alger Hiss ?
Mr. Rosen. I have never even seen him. I saw his picture in the
papers.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know an individual named Bialek,
B-i-a-1-e-k?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that the
answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Rosen, will you please tell the committee what other
names you have gone under than "Rosen" during your lifetime?
Start chronologically and give us the names while you have been in
the United States — I am only interested in that.
Mr. Braverman. May I consult with him ?
Mr. Nixon. Certainly.
(Mr. Braverman and Mr. Rosen confer.)
Mr. Nixon. All right.
Mr. Rosen. I never changed my name in all my life.
Mr. Nixon. You never used another name than Rosen ?
Mr. Rosen. No. I Avas called Wilhelm, and I came here and called
myself William. That is all.
Mr. Nixon. Have you ever owned a 1929 Ford automobile?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that any
answer I may give to that question may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know Joe Cherner ?
Mr. Rosen. On this question I will answer I have seen Cherner,
the last time on the night of the Jewish appeal. We are active, both
of us, in United Jewish Appeal. That is the only time I saw Cherner.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know^ any employee of Joe Cherner's?
Mr. Rosen. I do not. I was never connected with any place of Joe
Cherner's.
Mr. Nixon. Did you visit Joe Cherner's establishment in 1936 ?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that any
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Vail. Mr. Rosen, did you ever reside at 5105 Thirteenth Street
NW.. Washington.
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that any
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Vail. Were you ever at that address?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that any
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Nixon. I am going to tell the chairman of the subcommittee
right now that I am going to move to cite this man for contempt.
Mr. McDowell. Wait a minute.
Did you ever buy a car from the Cherner Motor Co. ?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that any
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. McDowell. Was a car transferred to vou from the Cherner
Motor Co., Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that any
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. McDowell. Have you ever owned an automobile in your life?
(Mr. Rosen and Mr. Braverman confer.)
Mr. McDowell. What is the answer?
Ml'. Rosen. Yes ; I owned a car.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1213
Ml-. ]McDowKLL. You have OAviied an automobile?
Mr. RosEK. Yes.
:Mr. INIcDoAVELL. Did it come from the Cherner Motor Co., any of the
cars you may have owned ^
:Mr. RosEX. I refuse to answer the question on the gromid that any
answer I may f^ive you may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Rosen, I want to tell you why these questions are
material and then give you another opportunity to answer these ques-
tions.
This committee in its investigation of certain testimony sworn to^
by one Whittaker Chambers concerning the transfer of an automobile
from jNIr. Alger Hiss to one William Rosen found an assignment of
title at the Department of Motor Vehicles showing a transfer and
which reads in substance as follows :
On the 23d of July 1936, Alger Hiss transferred to the Cherner Motor Co.
at 1781 Florida Avenue NW., a 1929 Ford roadster. That same day Cherner
Motor Co. transferred tliat car to one William Bosen, who gave as his address
5405 Thirteenth Street NW. The application for certificate of title made that
same day by William Rosen, the purchaser of the car from Cherner Motor Co.^
assigned by William Rosen, and he gives in his own handwriting his address a&
5405 Thirteenth Street NW.
Now, whether or not this transfer occurred in this manner and
whether or not this transfer Avas made to a William Rosen who was
then a member of the Comnumist Party is material to inquiry which,
this committee is conducting into Communist activities in the Govern-
ment during that period, and into espionage activities during that
period.
Now, I again ask you: Did j'ou purchase a 1929 Ford from the
Clierner Motor Co. on July 23, 1936 ?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that any
answer I ma}- give ma}' tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Nixon. I now show you the application for title for this auto-
mobile, and I point out to you the name of the William Rosen wdia
signed the application for title, and I ask you if that is your signature.
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that any
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Nixon. How could the answer "no" incriminate you, Mr. Rosen ?
Is your answer no, that you did not sion }7our name to that application
for title?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer that on the ground that it may in-
criminate me in the future.
Mr. Nixon. How long have you been a member of the Communist
Party, Mr. Rosen ?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to ans^Ver the question on the ground that any
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Nixon. When did you first apply for membership in the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that any
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Nixon. Have you ever stayed at the home of Benjamin Bialek
at 5405 Thirteenth Street NW. ?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that any
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
]Mr. Nixon. JNIr. Investigator, I would like to get handwriting speci-
mens from Mr. Rosen.
1214 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. All right.
Mr. Braveeman. Mr. Nixon
Mr. Nixon. We are entitled to that.
Mr. Braverman. I believe you already have handwriting specimens,
but if you want one you can have it.
Mr. Nixon. How many do we have ?
Mr. Rosen. I signed 10 times my name.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Cliairman, I had to leave the room. Did the
witness refuse to answer the questions after it was explained the perti-
nence and importance of it ?
Mr. Nixon. I explained the pertinency and importance of it.
Mr. Stripling. Was he asked whether or not he signed this docu-
ment ?
Mr. McDowell. Yes ; and he declined to answer on the ground that
it might incriminate him.
Mr. Rosen, do you have any objection yourself to aiding the Govern-
ment in attemptiug to determine facts which are important to the
Government ?
(Mr. Rosen and Mr. Braverman confer.)
Mr. Rosen. I have no objection at all. In fact, I have sent my
four sons to fight a war and my youngest son was 17 years old. I
took him down to have enlisted to fight a war. I myself am willing
to give my life for the country. That is how much this country means
to me. If anything I can help the country, I would do it. If anything
involves anything or incriminate myself, I will not say anything about.
Mr. Stripling. The committee is not asking you to incriminate
y;ourself. As a matter of fact, your counsel will tell you you cannot
be prosecuted for anything you say before this committee, but here
is a Congress of the United States trying to determine whether or
not a William Rosen purchased a Ford automobile in 1936. Now,
if you didn't buy the car, why shouldn't you tell the Government you
didn't buy the car ?
(Mr. Rosen and Mr. Braverman confer.)
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that
any answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Rosen, don't you realize that by refusing to answer
questions that you are in effect incriminating yourself in the eyes of
this committee and you will incriminate yourself in the eyes of the
people who believe it is essential to investigate the activities of those
who are attempting to destroj^ this Government, and you told ISIr.
Stripling that you wanted to help do everything you could for this
Government.
Now. that is just what we are trying .to do through this investiga-
tion. Now, won't you help us by answering "Yes'' or "No" to these
questions which happened over 12 years ago?
Mr. Stripling. Are you going to answer the question?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer the question.
Mr. Stripling. INIr. Rosen, isn't it a fact — and you can answer this
one — isn't it a fact that your refusing to answer these questions,
among other reasons is because you have been told by the Communist
Party not to do so?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question for the same reason,
that any answer may incriminate me.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1215
Mr. Nixon. Have you consulted with tlie Communist Party repre-
sentatives concerning- tliis case?
Mr. Stkiplixo. In the last 24 hours.
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that
anythin.g I have to sa}^ may incrimmate me in the future.
Mr. Stkipling. Have you ever lived in Baltimore?
Mr. Rosen. No, sir; never lived in Baltimore.
Mr. Stripling. Why is it your attorney is from Baltimore?
Mr. Rosen. I have a very Vood friend there. I called him up to
get me an attorney.
Mr. Stripling. You did Avhat ?
ISIr. Rosen. I have a very good friend there. I called him up and
he reconmiended this attorney.
Mr. Stkipling. You have a good friend in Baltimore ?
Mr. Rosen. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Who is that friend ?
( Mr. Rosen and Mr. Braverman confer.)
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer this kind of a question as to who
my friends are.
Mr. Stripling. We are not asking you just who your friends are.
1 just asked you if the Communist Party didn't instruct you to answer
these questions in this way.
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that any
answer I may give to that question may incriminate me,
Mr. Stripling. Are you here in response to a subpena which was
served u})on you ?
Mr. Rosen. Yes. sir.
Mr. Stripling. You are fully aware of the penalties of perjury ?
Mr. Rosen. Yes.
^Ir. Stripling. Your counsel has advised j'^ou of that ?
]Mr. Rosen. Advised me what ?
Mr. Stripling. The penalties of perjury.
Mr. Braverman. He has already been advised by Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Stripling. I understand, but have you advised him ?
Mr. Braverman. I am not on the stand.
Mr. SiTiiPLiNG. You are on the stand. In fact, I would suggest that
the chairman swear counsel. I have a few questions I would like to
ask counsel.
IMr. McDowell. Stand up and raise your right hand.
Mr. BRA^•ERMAN. I will stand up, but I refuse to be sworn in as a
witness in this case. I am counsel.
Mr. ^McDowell. Get a subpena.
Mr. Braverman. Mr. McDowell, will you permit me to call counsel?
Mr. McDowell. Well, no : there has been no action taken yet. Wait
a minute.
Mr. Braverman. I would like to call counsel before I am subpenaed.
jMr. McDowell. There has been no subpena yet. Just wait a minute
until you need counsel.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Rosen. I would like to have you enlighten me on
this question. Do you believe that the Communists constitute a danger
to the Government, the American Government, that j^ou have indicated
you wanted to defend?
1216 ' COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Rosen. I am not prepared to answer these questions, and I can-
not answer them.
Mr. Stripling. You believe they do, then ?
Mr. Rosen. I say I am not prepared to aUvSwer this question, and I
cannot answer you.
Mr. Stripling. You don't want to answer "Yes" or "No" ?
Mr. Rosen. I can't answer "Yes" or "No," because I am not pre-
pared. I don't understand the Avhole thing.
Mr. Stripling. You are not a Communist yourself ?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that it
may incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, in order to expedite the hearing, the
counsel has indicated that he would not testify unless he called coun-
sel ; is that correct, Mr. Braverman ?
Mr, Braverman. I haven't indicated that at all.
Mr. Stripling. You asked to call counsel. Are you prepared to
testify if we subpena you?
Mr. Braverman. I am not prepared.
Mr. Stripling. You are not prepared ?
Mr. Braverman. I would like to state my reason, too.
Mr. Stripling. I can see, Mr. Chairman, that the witness would not
testify and I suggest that we withhold the subpena.
Mr. Bravehman. I would like the opportunity of stating my reason,
Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. For refusing to take the oath ?
Mr. Braverman. Yes ; when it was asked of me.
Mr. Stripling. I ask you now : Will you take the oath ?
Mr. Braverman. No ; I won't.
Mr. Stripling. Why?
Mr. Braverman. For the simple reason that I am here representing
Mr. Rosen. I think any attempt to put me under oath is an attempt
to intimidate my client and hurt my professional relations between
attorney and client. I have a perfect right to appear as attorr.ey for
my client, and I think the committee has no right to ask questions
regarding relations between me and my client.
Mr. Stripling. We are not asking you about the relations between
your client and yourself.
Mr. Bravekman. I think any questions w^ould be in that regard.
Mr. Stripling. We often swear counsel. In fact, we swore coun-
sel yesterday in public hearing, and because you come here wdth a
witness and seek to give him advice on how to answer questions doesn't
give you any immunity.
Mr. Braverman. I haven't claimed that immunity. I am merely
stating my position.
Mv. Stripling. You have refused to take the oath.
Mr. Braverman. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. There is a certain immunity in refusing to be
sworn.
Mr. McDowell. Do you have anything further, Mr. Stripling ?
Mr. Stripling. No.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Vail ?
Mr. Vail. Not at this moment.
Mr. Stripung. Mr. Rosen, do you know Samuel Lichtenstein ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1217
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that any
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Robert Bialek?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that any
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Rosen, I am going to ask you : Did you ever sell
a 1929 Ford car?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that any
answer that I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Nixon. Do you have a 1929 Ford in your possession at the pres-
ent time?
Mr. Rosen, No, sir ; I do not.
Mr. Nixon. Have you ever had a 1929 Ford in your possession ?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that any
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Rosen, the records, I believe, show that you at the
present time own a Chevrolet panel truck, 1941, for delivery purposes;
is that correct ?
Mr. Rosen. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. What did you trade in on that truck ?
Mr. Rosen. Nothing. When I bought the business I got the truck-
with the business.
Mr. Nixon. You got it with the business ?
Mr. Rosen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixon. Did j-ou have the Ford at that time ?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer about any other car. I bought the
Chevrolet : I bought it from a fellow by the name of Alf Fiore. I got
the Chewy truck with the business. It was thrown in.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Rosen, in 1936, did you have a mailing addres:?
in Washington. D. C?
Mr. R'.)SEN. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that am'"
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Russell. Where did you live between 1928 and 1936 ?
Mr. Rosen. I lived in New York.
Mr. Russell. What was the address?
Mr. Rosen. I lived in three places. One is 638 West One Hundred
and Sixtieth Street. The second was Fort Washington Avenue, at
the corner of One Hundred and Sixty-first Avenue. The third was
Jessup Avenue. I don't know the address; I don't remember the
address.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever in Pennsylvania Station in New York
City?
Mr. Rosen. Was I ever in Pennsylvania Station?
Mr. Stripling. In New York City.
Mr. Rosen. Of course, I was there many times.* When I am in New
York I went to Pennsylvania Station.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever in Union Station in Washington.
D.C.?
Mr. Rosen. When I go to New York I am in Union Station.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever in Pennsylvania Station in 1936?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that any
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
80408—48 46
1218 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Strifling. Were you ever in Union Station, Washington, D. C,
in 1936?
Mr, Rosen. I refuse to answer tliis question on tlie ground that any
answer I may give may incriminate me.
Mr. STRirLiNG. You realize, don't you, Mr. Rosen, what you are
doing? You sit there and answer one question about an automobile
and then you refuse to answer the question about this automobile,
which is the subject of a congressional investigation. You admit that
you have been in Washington, you admit you have been in Pennsyl-
vania Station and Union Station, but you won't admit you were there
in 1936.
Now, if you are not deeply implicated in this matter, you would
certainly answer those questions. There is nothing incriminating
about being in Union Station in 1936.
Mr. Rosen. If I answer yes, I may tell you a lie, because I don't
remember. If I would say no, I may tell you a lie. Maybe I was
there.
Mr. Stripling. If you say you don't remember
Mr. Rosen. This is the honest truth, I don't remember if I was in
Union Station or Pennsylvania Station.
Mr. XixoN. Is it your testimony then, the same on this car, that you
don't remember that you got a 1929 Ford ?
Mr. Rosen. No, sir, I don't say anything about the car. I refuse
to answer any questions.
Mr. Nixon. Do you remember about the car. then?
Mr. Rosen. I didn't say "I remember anything.'' I say I refuse to
answer any question on the ground that any answer I may give may
tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Nixon. Any question about the car you refuse to answer on the
ground that it might incriminate you, but you are willing to answer
questions about Union Station ?
Mr. Rosen. I am not willing to answer. I sav I couldn't answer
on that question either,
Mr. Nixon. Why not ?
Mr. Rosen. Because how in the world can a man answer a question
whether he was in Union Station in 1936, 12 years ago ?
Mr. Nixon. Because you can't remember ?
Mr. Rosen. No.
Mr. Nixon. Are you also refusing to answer the question about the
car because you can't remember?
Mr. Rosen. No. I refuse to answer the question about the car on
the ground that any answer I may give you, "yes," or "no," may in-
criminate me.
Mr. Nixon. I think the record is absolutely clear now.
Mr. Russell. Do you know William C. Taylor ?
Mr. Rosen. Who ?
Mr. Russell. Do you know William C. Taylor?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that any
answer I may give you may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever seen William C. Taylor?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that any
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Russell. Who 'is William C. Taylor?
Mr. Rosen. You tell me.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1219
]Mr. RussKi.L. Chairman of the Communist Party of the District of
Cohnnbia.
. Mr. Vail. You said you had four sons. Did they serve in this last
war ?
Mr. Rosen. Yes, sir.
Mr. Vail. You say they enlisted ?
Mr. Rosen. Two of them enlisted ; two were drafted.
Mr. RussEi.L. Do you know Addie Rosen (!
Mr. Rosen. Who?
Mr. Russell. Addie Rosen.
JNlr. Rosen. I hope to tell you I know her.
Mr. Russell. Who is she ?
Mr. Rosen. She is my wife,
]\lr. Russell. Is she a member of the Communist Party ?
]Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
any answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Russell. You admit you know Addie Rosen and you won't
answer Avhether or not she is a member of the Communist Part3^
Why do you refuse to answer whether or not you know William C.
Taylor? Because he is a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer because any answer I may give
may tend to incriminate me. That is all.
Mr. Russell. Did you ever file application for membership in the
Communist F'art}^ ?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer that question on the ground that
any answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. RussrxL. When did you file application for membership in
the Communist Party?
, Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that any
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. NixoN. I have a question.
What was your occupation in 1030? Were you in the dry-cleaning
business then ?
Mr. Rosen. 1930?
Mr. Nixon. Yes.
Mr. Rosex. I was working for an installment house in New York.
Mr. Nixox*. How long did you work there? Was it for several
years?
Mr. Rosen. I was for some years with that house, and then I was
in business for myself there.
Mr. Nixox^. Where were you working in 1935 ?
Mr. Rosen. In 1935, I was in business for myself in New York.
Mr. Nixox. What kind of a business?
Mr. RosEX'. Installment business.
Mr. Nixox'. Installment business ; what house ?
Mr. RosEX'. My own house.
Mr. Nixon, Independent contractor?
Mr. Rosen. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Wliere were you working in 1936 ?
Mr. Rosen. Same place.
Mr. Nixon. You had the same business?
Mr. RosEX-. Sure.
Mr. Nixox\ That was the only business you had?
Mr. RosEN. Yes.
1220 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. You didn't work for anj'body else ?
Mr. Rosen. No, sir.
Mr. Nixon. You didn't work for the Communist Party in 1936 ?
Mr. Rosen. I was in business in 1936.
Mr. Nixon. Did you work for the Communist Party in 1936 ?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer on the ground that any answer I
may give may tend to incriminate me. I am just telling you I was ii"L
business. That is all.
Mr. Nixon. You won't say what business ?
Mr. Rosen. Yes ; installment business.
Mr. Nixon. Well, I mean, did you work for the Communist Party?
Mr. Rosen. I was in my own business, I am telling you, and when
it comes to Conmiunist Party I refuse to answer any questions about
the Communist Party on the ground that any answer I may give may
tend to incriminate me.
Mr. NixoN. That is all.
Mr. Stripling. Is that your brief case ?
Mr. Bkaverman. That is my brief case.
Mr. Stripling. You don't have any documents you would like to
show the committee, do you ?
Mr. Rosen. No, sir ; I have no documents at all.
Mr. Stripling. You don't want to help the Government clear this
matter up?
Mr. Rosen. I don't see how in the world I can clear it.
Mr. Stripling. You can help us by answering three simple ques-
tions. Are you willing to answer those questions ?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer the questions on the grounds that it
may incriminate me.
Mr. Vail. Would you take your sons down to enlist again in th^
event we have trouble with Russia ?
Mr. Braverman. I didn't hear the question — down to where?
Mr. Vail. To enlist in the event we have trouble with Russia. That
is to say, enlist on the American side.
Mr. Rosen. I don't believe you will ever have any trouble with
Russia.
Mr. Vail. That isn't answering the question, sir.
Mr. Rosen. My sons are married, all of them are married, and I
can't take them down. I took down two of them when they were single
and were in my house. They are married ; they can do as they please.
Mr. Nixon.' Would you want them to go down and enlist? You
would, wouldn't you, in the event of a war with the present Russian
Government ?
Would you want them to defend the country?
Mr. Rosen. Is this question so important about the investigation
that you are carrying out?
Mr. Nixon. Quite important.
Mr. Rosen. Then, I refuse to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Nixon. You can't refuse to answer that question on the ground
of self incrimination.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1221
Mr. Rosen. If I answer you that I "vvill see that m}?^ sons will go
-doAvn there, maybe my sons would be against it, maybe they Avouldn't
go-
^Ir. XixoN. I see.
Mr. KussELL. One further question.
Did your son William H. Rosen ever reside at 5405 Thirteenth
Street NW. ?
Mr. RosEX. When ?
:Mr. Russell. In 1936.
Mr. RosEX. He was 8 years old then.
!Mr. Russell. He would be older than that, wouldn't he?
Mr. RosEX. He was 8 years old.
Mr. Russell. Did he reside there?
Mr. RosEX. I am asking you. He was 8 years old. I refuse to
answer this question on the ground that any answer I may give may
tend to incriminate me. There is no use of answering a question of
Mhether he was living there. He was living with me.
Mr. Russell. How old is William H. at the present time?
Mr. RosEX. He was born at the end of 1926, and he is now, he will
be 22 years old — will be 22.
Mr. Russell. What day was lie born ?
Mr. RosEX. I believe he was born in September 1926.
Mr. Russell. It would make him 10 years old in 1936.
Mr. RosEX. Ten years, something like that. He was living with me.
That is all I can tell you.
Mr. Nixox. In New York ?
Mr. RosEX^. Of course, in New York.
Mr. Xixox. You weren't in Washington in 1936?
Mr. RosEx. I was in New York. I lived in New York up to 1940.
I came here in 1941.
Mr. Nixox. Then, you are testifying you didn't come to W^ashington
in 1936 ?
Mr. RosEx. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that any
answer I may give may tend to incrindnate me.
Mr. McDowell. ]Mr. Russell ?
Mr. Russell. That is all.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Stripling?
Mr. Striplixg. No questions.
Mr. McDowell. My. Vail ?
Mr. Vail. No questions.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Nixon ?
Mr. Nixox. No questions.
Mr. McDowell. I just want to say this last thing. You are an old
man, 64 years old. You came here from Austria. It is obvious to all
of us that you are a Communist, a member of the Communist Party.
You make a poor mouth about taking your four sons down and having
them join the United States Army. If you — and this will be good for
you, too, counsel — if you and the rest of the Communists of the United
States, regardless of the number of lawyers you have who have studied
our Constitution, think that the Government of this country, the
1222 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
strongest country on earth, is going to sit here day after day, after day,
and hear men come up and refuse to answer questions that are proper,
that are put in order to safeguard the people of this country, you are
wrong, and you are going to find out hoAv very, verj'^ wrong you are
in this particular case.
You are dismissed.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chairman, I move the committee now resolve itself
into executive session for the purpose of considering a contempt cita-
tion of this man.
Mr. McDowell. Is it seconded ?
Mr. Vail. Second.
Mr. McDowell. Very well.
That is all.
(Whereupon, the subcommittee retired into executive session for the
purpose stated, and the reporter was excused.)
HEAEINGS EEGARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
» FRIDAY, AUGUST 27, 1948
United States House or Representatives,
Special Subcommittee or the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
W ashington^ D. C.
executive session *^
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 11 a. m., in room 226,
Old House Office Building, Hon. John McDowell presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives John McDowell,
Richard B. Vail, and Richard M. Nixon.
Staif members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator;
Louis J. Russell, William A. Wheeler, and Donald T. Appell,
investigators.
Mr. McDowell. The committee will be in order. The record will
show that this is a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American
Activities in session taking further testimony on espionage in the
United States Government. Those present are Mr. Vail and Mr.
McDowell, Mr. Russell, and Mr. Wheeler.
All right, Mr. Russell.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Leon Cherner.
Mr. McDo^^^ELL. Will you stand up?
Will you solennily swear that the information and testimony you
will give the committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help j^ou God?
Mr. Cherner. I clo.
TESTIMONY OF LEON CHEENEE
Mr. Russell. Mr. Cherner, will you state your full name?
Mr. Cherner. Leon Cherner.
Mr. Russell. What is your present address ?
Mr. Cherner. Home address?
Mr. Russell, Yes.
Mr. Cherner. 7935 Orchid Street.
Mr. Russell. What is your present occupation ?
Mr. Cherner. I am vice president, Cherner Motor Co.
Mr. Russell. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Cherner. I was born in January, January 15, 1904.
''- Tpstimony taken in executive session and made public with this printing.
1223
1224 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Russell. Where?
Mr. Cherner. Russia.
Mr. Russell. What city or province ?
Mr. Cherner. Damned if I know — it is called Mulove Gubernya.
Mr. Russell. How d,o you spell it ?
Mr. Cherner. I don't know.
Mr. Russell. When did you first come to the United States?
jMr. Cherner. I was about 6 years old, about 1910.
Mr. Russell. What was the port of entry upon your arrival in the
United States?
Mr. Cherner. Baltimore, I believe.
Mr. Russell. Baltimore.
Mr. Cherner. The same boat my brother came on. You probably
have his information here.
Mr. Russell. Are you a naturalized citizen ?
Mr. Cherner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Russell. How long have you been with tlie Cherner ]Motor Co. ?
Mr. Cherner. Since December of 1983.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Chairman, at this time I would like to take some
handwriting specimens from Mr. Cherner.
Mr. McDowell. All right. Mr. Cherner, according to the provi-
sions of the Federal law we can require you to give us specimens of
your handwriting, and that will be required at this point.
Mr. Cherner. That is all right.
Mr. Russell. Write the name "William Rosen, 5405 Thirteenth
Street NW."
(Mr. Cherner complies.)
Mr. Russell. Mr. Cherner, do you know an individual by the name
of William Rosen ?
Mr. Cherner. Do I know anybody — no, sir ; I do not.
Mr. Russell. Did you ever hear of anyone by that name ?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Cherner, I show you a certificate of title of a
motor vehicle issued by the District of Columbia.
Mr. Cherner. Yes.
Mr. Russell. And I also show you the name "William Rosen." Do
you recall whether or not you ever wrote that name on this document?
Mr. Cherner. I do not have anything to do with this end of it at all.
Mr. McDowell. Raise your voice. I cannot hear you.
Mr. Russell. He said he does not have anything to do with that end
of it.
But do you recall whether you ever wrote a signature
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Such as this ?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. In other words you never saw that document before?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Or an original of that document?
Mr. Cherner. That is right.
Mr. Russell. Do you know Benjamin A. Bialek or Bealek (phonet-
ical in last instance) ?
Mr. Cherner. Bialek?
Mr, Russell. Yes.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1225
Mr. CiiERXER. I know a Bialek that runs a drug store around the
corner from where I nsed to live, Petworth Pharmacy.
Mr. Russell. What is his first name?
Mr. CiiERNER. I do not know his first name. All I know is that
he is an owner of the store, and I went to store — I lived aromid the
corner.
Mr. Russell. Did Cherner Motor Co. ever sell them any automobiles,
theBialeks?
Mr. Cherxer. Not to the Bialeks. We sold the pharmacy a coupe
a couple of years ago. We sold them a '46 coupe. We sold the store.
I do not know whether that is the same Bialek or not.
Mr. Russell. Do you know Mrs. Bialek ?
Mr. Cherner, No; I do not. .
Mr. Russell. Do you know Robert Bialek?
Mr. Cherner. No.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party ?^ ^ ■
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Did you ever file an application to become a member?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr, Russell, Did you ever contribute any money to the Communist
Party?
Mr. Cherner, No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Did you ever contribute any mone}- to the Biro-Bijdan
Committee ?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Cherner, I show you a picture of an individual
who I will now not identify at this time and ask you whether or not
you have ever seen that individual [showing photograph] ?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir; I do not,
Mr, Russell. You never have seen anyone who resembles the man
appearing in this photograph?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Chairman, those are all the questions I have of
Mr. Cherner.
Mr. McDowell. Mv. Nixon, do you have any questions?
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Cherner, were vou with the Cherner Motor Co. in
1936?
Mr. Cherner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Nixox^. Was it the custom of the company at that time to make
records of cars that were purchased, used cars that were purchased?
Mr. Cherxer. To be honest with you, at that j^articular time I was
a salesman there. I did not have anything to do with the office end
of it at all.
Mr. Nixox^. Who ran the office?
Mr. Cherxer. Mr. Gertler, the notary who is on that title.
Mr. Nixox^. Is he still witli the company?
Mr. Cherx^er. He has been here.
Mr. Nixon. He ran that office ?
Mr. Cherxer. He ran it then and runs it now.
Mr. Nixox. Is he the man who probably handled this transaction,
then ?
Mr. Cherxer. He would be ; yes.
1226 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. Why is it there is no record of the transaction in the
Cherner Motor Co. and that all the other records are there ?
Mr. Cherner. I do not know anything about that. He could prob-
ably tell you about that.
Mr. Nixon. He couldn't remember about it, either.
Mr. Cherner. He could not? I don't know. Was that in 1936?
That is 12 years ago.
Mr. Nixon. That is right. We have found the other records, but
"vve cannot find this record.
Mr. Cherner. The only thing I can do is— maybe he will go through
his records again. There is a possibility that he may find them.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Russell, you have searched the records thoroughly
already, have j^ou not?
Mr. Cherner. Were you up there yourself, Mv. Russell ?
Mr. Russell. We searched all the records that the Cherner Motor
Co. could produce.
Mr. Nixon. And found no records of this transaction.
Mr. Russell. That is right ; and it is impossible that a sales in-
voice could have been made out that day.
Mr. Nixon. On that particular transaction no sales invoice was
made out for this automobile.
Mr. Cherner. Well, the whole transaction would be the same as
the title there. That is practically the transaction itself right there.
Mr. Nixon. That is true.
Mr. Cherner. That is the record.
Mr. Nixon. I mean, for all the other transactions that were made
by the company that day there were sales invoices made, and yet on
this one there was no sales invoice. What kind of a business was
that?
Mr. Cherner. I do not have anything to do with that end of it.
I don't even know.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know Mr. Alger Hiss ?
Mr. Cherner. Who? No, sir ; I do not.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know William Rosen ?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Nixon. You never heard of a man named William'Rosen?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir; never have.
Mr. Nixon. You had nothing at all to do with this transaction ?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir ; not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Nixon. That is all.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Vail.
Mr. Vail. No questions.
Mr. McDowell. Ai-e you through ?
Mr. Russell. I have one further question.
Mr. Cherner. Sir?
Mr. Russell. Do you know Edward S. Barton, B a-r-t-o-n?
Mr. Cherner. Yes ; he used to be also one of our used-car salesmen,
I believe.
Mr. Russell. Is he still employed by Cherner Motor Co.?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Do you know where he is emploj^ed at the present
time?
Mr. Cherner. The last I heard of him he had a fruit store out
.southeast somewhere.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1227
JMi'. Russell. Fruit store out soutlieast?
Mr. CiiEKNEK. Yes.
Mr. Russell. That is all.
Mr. Mt'DoAVELL. The witness is dismissed.
Mr. Xixox. Thank you, Mr. Cherner.
Ml-. CiiERXER. Thank you.
Mr. McDowell. The next witness, Mr. Russell.
Mv. Russell. Are you Henry Cherner?
Mr. Ciierxer. Yes.
Mr. McDowELi-. Will you stand, please, and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give this
■committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God ?
Mr. CiiERNER. I do.
Mr. McDowell. Sit down. All right, Mv. Russell.
TESTIMONY OF HENRY CHERNER
Mr. Rl'SSell. Mr. Cherner, you are appearing before this commit-
tee by virtue of a subpena which was served upon you yesterday,
are you not ?
Mr. Ciierxer. That is right.
Mr. Russell. Will you state your full name?
Mr. CiTERX'EK. Henry Cheiner.
Mr. Russell. What is your present address?
Mr. CiiERx^^ER. 4400 Burlington Place.
Mr. Russell. What is your present occupation?
Mr. CiiERX'ER. Well, I am a used-car dealer.
Mr. Russell. Under what name?
Mr. Ciierxer. Cherner-Brewer Auto Sales.
Mr. Russell. Were vou at one time associated with the Cherner
Motor Co.?
Mr. Ciierxer. Yes.
Mr. Russell. The one operated by your brother Joe Cherner ?
Mr. Ciierx^er. That is right.
Mr. Russell. When were you associated, or for what period were
you associated with the Cherner Motor Co. ?
Mr. Ciierxer. I was there from May of 1935 to the end of 1946, 11
years, a little over 11 years.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Chairman, at tliis time I would like to take some
handwriting specimens from Mr. Henry Cherner.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Cherner, according to the provisions of Fed-
eral law, this committee has the right to require you to give us speci-
mens of handwriting. We shall require that.
Mr. Ciierxer. You want me to write something?
Mr. Russell. Will you write the name, "William Rosen, 5405
Thirteenth Street NW."
(Mr. Cherner complies.)
Mr. Russell. Mr. Cherner, when you were associated with your
brother Joseph, what position did vou have with the Cherner Motor
Co.?
Mr. Cherx^er. Well, salesman.
Mr. Russell. Salesman?
Mr. Cherner. That is right.
1228 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Russell. Do you know an indh'idual named AYilliam Rosen?
Mr. CiiERNER. That name sounds familiar to me— William Rosen ?
I may know him when I see him. You know, it is hard to tell by name.
Mr. Russell. Do you know anyone by that name in the dry-cleaning
business ?
Mr. Ciierner. Not knowingly, I do not.
Mr. Russell. Do you recall whether or not you ever sold an auto-
mobile to an individual named William Rosen ?
JNIr. Cherner. No ; I do not.
Mr. Russell. How did the Cherner Motor Co. record sales of auto-
mobiles while you were there?
Mr. Cherner. Well, that was out of my line, you see. I mean. I
did not have anything to do with that, but I mean they had a regular
bookkeeping system, as far as I know.
Mr. Russell. As far as you know, did they record all sales?
Mr. Cherner. Always; I am almost sure of that.
Mr. Russell. Do you know Benjamin Bialek (phonetically,
Bi-al-ek) or Bialek (phonetically, Bi-a-lek) ?
Mr. Cherner. Benjamin — what?
Mr. Russell. Bialek or Bealek (phonetical in last instance).
Mr. Cherner. Bialek ; yes, I do know him.
Mr. Russell. Do you know Benjamin? Do you know him by the
]]ame "Benjamin"?
Mr. Cherner. That is the one who had a grocery store or is the
one that has a drug store ?
Mr. Russell. Drug store.
Mr. Cherner. Drug store ; yes, I know him.
Mr. Russell. But do you know him by the name "Benjamin" or
just by the name of Bialek?
Mr. Cherner. I know it is Bialek. That is the way he pronounces
it, Bialek. Wait a minute. I think it is Benjamin.
Mr. Russell. Do you know Robert Bialek '(
Mr. Cherner. I kiiow two of them. I do not know their first names.
Mr. Russell. Did you ever sell them an automobile?
Mr. Cherner. No ; I never did.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Cherner. Have I been what?
Mr. Russell. A member of the Communist Part3^
Mr. Cherner. No, sir. •
Mr. Russell. Dicl you ever contribute any money to the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Did you ever file an application for membership for
the Communist Party ?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Did you ever contribute any monej^ to Benjamin
Bialek for any purpose whatsoever ?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Dicl you ever contribute any to Mrs. Bialek?
Mr. Cherner. No.
Mr. Russell. Did you ever contribute to the Biro-Bidjan Com-
mittee ?
Mr. Cherner. No.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1229
Mr. Russell. Mr. Cherner, I show you a certificate of title for a
motor vehicle issued by the District of Columbia, and I ask you if you
ever wrote the name which appears on there, "William Rosen"?
Mr. CuERNER. Did I write it ?
Mr, Russell. Yes.
Mr. CiiERNER. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. It is not your handwriting?
Mr. CiiERNER. No, sir. It does not tell you here who sold the car,
does it [indicating- photostatic copy of certificate of title] ?
Mr. Russell. No.
Mr. CiiERNER. Well, they should have the record of who sold the
car. That name really does sound very familiar to me.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever visited Benjamin Bialek at his home?
Mr. Cherner. Not at his home ; no.
Mr. Russell. HaA^e you ever visited him ?
Mr. Cherner. Well, not exactly him. I was in his store and talked
to him. I did not just go especially to see him.
Mr. Russell. Did he ever ask you to contribute any money to any
organization ?
Sir. Cherner. No.
Mr. Russell. I show you a photograph of an individual who I will
not identify and I will ask you if you have ever seen the person whose
picture I have just handed you.
Mr. Cherner. No ; I do not think I have.
Mr. Russell. You have never seen anyone who resembles the in-
dividual appearing in the photograph?
Mr. Cherner. I cannot say that I have ; no.
Mr. Russell. I have no other questions.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Vail.
^Ir. Vail. I have no questions.
Mr. McDowell. Thank you very much, Mr. Cherner. You are
excused,
Mr. Cherner. All right.
Mr. ISIcDowELL. The next witness, Mr. Russell.
Mr. Russell. Are you Mr. Floyd Brewer?
Mr. Brewer. Yes, sir.
Mr. McDowell. Will you raise your hand ?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you shall give the committee
shall be the truth, tlie whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mr. Brewer. I do,
TESTIMONY OF FLOYD EHODA BKEWER
Mr, Russell. Mr, Brewer, will you state your full name?
Mr, Brewer, Floyd Rhoda Brewer,
Mr, Russell, What is your present address ?
Mr. Brewer, My home address or business address?
Mr, Russell, Home address.
Mr. Brewer. 1308 Tuckerman Street NW.
Mr. McDowell. Wliat was that street again?
Mr. Russell. Farragut?
Mr. Brewer. Tuckerman.
Mr, Russell. T-u-c-k-e-r-m-a-n?
1230 ' COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Brewer. Yes.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Brewer, you are appearing before the commit-
tee by virtue of a subpena whicli was served upon you yesterday,
are you not?
Mr. Brewer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Brewer, what is your present occupation?
Mr. Brewer. I am in the used-car business.
Mr. Russell. Under what firm name ?
Mr. Brewer. Cherner-Brewer Auto Sales.
Mr. Russell. Were you at one time associated with the Cherner
Motor Co. ?
Mr. Brewer. I was used-car manager there for 13 years.
Mr. Russell. What was the period of your managersliip ?
Mr. Brewer. I took charge there — well, I went with Cherner
March 15, 1933.
Mr, Russell. You were manager of used-car sales in 1936?
Mr. Brewer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Chairman, at this time, I would like to take
some handwriting specimens from Mr. Brewer.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Brewer, according to the provisions of the
Federal law, this committee has the right to require you to give it
specimens of your handwriting. We will exercise that right, now.
Mr. Brewer. All right, sir.
Mr. Russell. Will you write the name "William Rosen, 5405 Thir-
teenth Street NW." and print "NW"?
(Mr. Brewer complies.)
Mr. Russell. Mi\ Brewer, will you write as I dictate
Mr. Brewer. Will I write as you dictate? I will try, sir.
Mr. Russell. First, do j^ou know an individual named William
Rosen ?
Mr. Brewer. I do not remember him, sir.
Mr. Russell. All right.- Write this : "I do not know William Rosen
whose address was given as 5405 Thirteenth Street NW, as the buyer
of an automobile during the year 1936."
Mr. Brewer. You knovr, we sold a lot of automobiles there at
that time, gentlemen. I Avould like to help you any way I can.
Mr. Russell. That was for the purpose of getting further hand-
writing specimens. It was not an exact statement. So the record will
show that.
Mr. Brewer, do you know Benjamin Bialek or Bealek (phonetical
in last instance) ?
Mr. Brewer. No, sir ; I do not.
Mr. Russell. You never heard of him ?
Mr. Brewer. Not by that name ; no, sir.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever visisted an}' one at the address 5405
Thirteenth Street, as far as you can recall ?
Mr. Brewer. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Brewer, I show you a certificate of title of a
motoi- vehicle which was issued by the District of Columbia, and I
ask you whether or not you ever wrote the name "William Rosen"
which appears there.
Mr. Brewer. No, sir; I would not remember.
^Ii-. Russell. Is that vour handwriting?
COAIMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1231
Mr. Brewer. I do not think so. There is no reason why I should
write "William Rosen" on it. I never did that in my life, and I have
been in business 30 years.
Mr. Russell. That is all I want to know. In other words, you are
positive that is not your handwriting, that you did not write that
name.
Mr. Brewer. No, sir ; I do not remember the transaction in any way
and in no way.
Mr. Russell. Do j^ou recall who possibly might have handled that
transaction ?
Mr. Brewer. AVho might have ? No, sir ; I do not.
Mr. Russell. How many salesmen did the Cherner Motor Co. have
at the time ?
Mr. Brewer. In 1936 we had about nine.
Mr. Russell. Could you name them ?
Mr. Brewer. I think I can name some of them. I do not know
whether I can remember all of them.
Mr. Russell. Name as many of them as you can.
]Mr. Brea\T!:r. We had a man by the name of Bernie Adler; we had
a fellow by the name of Monte Rosenheim.
JNIr. Russell. How do you spell the first name ?
Mr. Brewer. M-o-n-t-e or M-o-n-t-y — I think M-o-n-t-y is the way
he spelled it.
Mr. Russell. R-o-s-e-n-h-e-i-m?
Mr. Brewer. Yes, sir.
Mr. Russell. Who is the first one ?
Mr. Brewer. Bernie, B-e-r-n-i-e ; Adler, A-d-l-e r is the way he spells
his last name.
Then, there was Joe AVasserman ; Irving Bland, and I had another
fellow by the name of Joe, Avho was working for me, but he is dead ;
King Stone. I am just trying to remember whether I had anybody
else with me at that time or not. You see, we had two used-car lots
at that time.
Mr. Russell. Yes. Where was the second one located?
Mr. Bre\\'er. I believe it was on Fourteenth Street.
Mr. Russell. Was Edward S. Barton employed?
Mr. Brewer. Eddie Barton?
Mr. Russell. Yes.
Mr. Brewer. Yes, sir: he had charge of my service department.
Mr. Russell. Do you know where he can be located at the present
I ime ?
Mr. Brewer. No, sir; I do noj:. The last time I heard of him was
that he was over in southeast working for his brother in a grocer}^
store, Mr. Russell.
And I had another fellow working for me there, Leonard Spring-
man.
Mr. Russell. Can you recall any others ?
Mr. Brewer. No, sir; not offhand, that I could who were working
for me at that particular time. They used to come and go pretty fast,
vou know. You would have one for a month or two, and thev would
leave, and you would get another one or two.
Mr. Russell. 1s\x. Brewer, haA'e you ever been a member of the
Communist Party?
1232 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Brewer. How is that ?
Mr. EussELL. Have you ever been a member of the Conmiunist
Party?
Mr. Breaver. No, sir ; definitely not.
Mr. Russell. Did any of the persons employed by you or by Cher-
iier Motor Co. ever indicate to you that they might be Comniunists ?
Mr. Brewer. No, sir ; no, sir.
Mr. Russell. In other words, you would not suspect any of these
individuals, whose names you have given, as being members of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Brewer. No, sir.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions of Mr.
Brewer.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Vail.
Mr. VxViL. No questions.
Mr. McDowell. Are you a native of Washington ?
Mr. Brewer. No, sir ; Virginia. I was born in "Warren County.
Mr. McDowell. Thank you very much.
Mr. Breaver. You are quite welcome. If there is anything further
I can do for you gentlemen, I will be only too happy to do so.
Mr. McDowell. Thank you. You are excused.
The next witness, Mr. Russell.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Samuel Bialek.
Mr. McDowell. Will you raise your right hand, sir, and be sworn?
You do solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give this com-
mittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Bialek. I do, sir.
Mr. McDowell. Sit down there, and you can smoke if you care to.
Mr. Bl\lek. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF SAMUEL BIALEK
Mr. Russell. Are you JNIr. Samuel Bialek or Bi-a-lek (phonetical
in last instance) ?
Mr. Bialek. That is right.
Mr. Russell. How do you pronounce the last name Bi-alek or Bi-
a-lek?
Mr. Bialek. Bialek.
Mr. Russell. Will you state your full name ?
Mr. Bialek. Samuel Maurice Bialek.
Mr. Russell. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Bialek. Washington, D. C.
Mr. Russell. What day and what year ?
Mr. Bialek. September 9, 1917.
INIr. Russell. What is your present address, your home addi-ess?
Mr. Bialek. 3117 Queens Chapel Road, Mount'Rahiier, Md., apart-
ment 102.
Mr. McDowell. Mount Rainier ?
Mr. Bialek. Yes, sir; Mount Rainier, Md. ; yes, sir.
Mr. Russell. What year did you say you were born?
Mr. Bialek. 1917.
Mr. Russell. 1917.
Mr. Bialek. That is right.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1233
Mr. Russell. What is your present occupation ?
Mr. BiALEK. I am a pharmacist.
Mr. Russell. Pharmacist?
Mr. BiALEK. Yes, sir.
Mr. Russell. Where are you employed ?
Mr. BiALEK. At the Petworth Pharmacy.
Mr. Russi:ll. Is your father, Benjamin Bialek, the owner of that
establishment?
Mr. BiALEK. It is a corporation, sir.
Mr. Russell. Is he a partner of Dr. Rosenberg?
Mr. Bialek. Well, it is a corporation; it could not be a partnership.
Mr. Russell. In other words, there are numerous stockholders?
Mr. Bialek. Well, I do not know.
Mr. Russell. How long have you lived in Washington? All of
your life?
Mr. Bialek. Except for the time I spent in the service.
Mr. Russell. Could you furnish the committee with a list of your
addresses in Washington, D. C, that is, your past addresses or places
of residence ?
Mr. Bialek. The only ones I remember accurately are Georgia
Avenue and Upshur Street, 3721 Kansas Avenue, 5405 Thirteenth
Street. That is all Northwest. 4007 Eighteenth Street. Do you want
the stations I was at during my tour of duty in the service?
Mr. Russell. No ; we do not need those.
Mr. Bialek. Then, 2702 Wisconsin Avenue, which is an apartment,
and the present address.
Mr. Russell. How many brothers do you have?
Mr. Bialek. Two.
Mr. Russell. AVould you name them, please ?
Mr. Bialek. Robert Bialek and Theodore Bialek?
Mr. Russell. Do you have any other relatives, that is. close
relatives?
Mr. Bialek. Yes, sir ; I have a sister.
Mr. Russell. Would you name them and give their addresses,
please?
Mr. Bialek. Lillian Block, 55 Manchester Road, Tuckahoe, N. Y.
Mr. Russell. Would you name the other brothers ?
Mr. Bialek. I did. There is only one sister and two brothers.
Mr. RtTssELL. I know, but you have not named the brothers nor
given tlieir address.
Mr. Bialek. You did not ask for their addresses.
Mr. Russell. Would vou give their addresses ?
Mr. Bialek. Yes. Robert Bialek is 829 Quincy Street NW., and
Theodore is at 4007 Eighteenth Street NW. The former is an
apartment.
Mr. Russell. Are you the oldest ?
Mr. Bialek. I am the oldest son.
Mr. Russell. Oldest son. Have you ever been acquainted with an
individual named William Rosen?
Mr. Bialek. I do not, nor have I ever known an individual or a
person called William Rosen.
Mr. Russell. Do you know Addie Rosen ?
80408—48 47
1234 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. BiALEK. I do not know him. To the best of my knowledge,
that does not ring a familiar bell at all.
Mr. E-ussELL. Do you know a Lionel Rosen ?
Mr. BiALEK. I know a Lionel Rosen.
Mr. Russell. Where does he live?
Mr. BiALEK. I do not know ; I have not seen him for quite a while.
Mr. Russell. When was the last time you saw him ?
Mr. BiALEK. I cannot be accurate in any answer to that.
Mr. Russell. Could you give an approximate date?
Mr. BiALEK. It would be very difficult.
Mr. Russell. Did you know him when you resided at 5405 Thir-
teenth Street NW. ?
Mr. BiALEK. I could not correlate the two ; no.
Mr. Russell. Do you recall whether or not he ever visited you at
that address?
Mr. BiALEK. I was never close with him.
Mr. Russell. Do you know a Eugene Rosen ?
Mr. BiALEK. I know a Eugene Rosen, who is a brother of the Lionel
Rosen. 1
Mr. Russell. Did Eugene ever visit you at 5405 Thirteenth Street?
Mr. BiALEK. Never visited me.
Mr. Russell. Did Cyril Rosen ever visit you at that address ?
Mr. BiALEK. To the best of my knowledge, none of them did.
Mr. Russell. Do you know Cyril?
Mr. BiALEK. The same way I would know Lionel.
Mr. Russell. Do you recall whether or not these individuals might
have visited your family at that address ?
Mr. BiALEK. That would be difficult to answer, because it is so far
in the past. I am under oath; is that right? And anything I say
now either would have to be exact, or I do not know. Isn't that true?
Mr. McDowell. Yes; that is true.
Mr. Russell. You can qualify a statement by saying to the best of
your recollection. The reason I ask you these questions is because at
the time 3^ou were residing at 5405 Thirteenth Stree^ NW. an in-
dividual purchased an automobile from tlie Cheruer Motor Co. and
gave the name of William Rosen and the address which was'listed at
the time of the purchase was 5405 Thirteenth Street NW.
Mr. BiALEK. I see.
Mr. Russell. Do you recall, or would you have any recollection of
where a persort using that name could have obtained knowledge re-
garding the address 5405 Thirteenth Street NW. ?
Mr. BiALEK. That question has many answers. I imagine that you
could get it most any place. We have always had a telephone that I
can recall. We have been living in Washington all of mv living life,
anyhow, except for my tour of duty in the service, so the best of my
recollection I could not give any possible explanation as to why anyone
would use that address.
Mv. Russell. Could you
Mr. BiALEK. If — let me add this — they ever did, to the best of my
recollection it would be an unauthorized use.
Mr. Russell. Could you state Avhether or not that at that time any
of the Rosens were known to you, that is, Lionel, Eugene, Cyril, Wil-
liam, or Addie ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1235
Mr. BiALEK. At the time I Avas at 5405 Thirteenth Street, it would
be very difficult to tie it in. To tlie best of my recollection, it was prior
to that time. It was — the reason I say "to the best recollection, it was
prior to that time,'" is back in my memory, it comes to my mind that
I knew them when I was at P>T2i Kansas Avenue. The reason I can
possibly put that into the picture that way is that I lived for 5 years
at that Kansas Avenue address and for 5 years at the Thirteenth Street
address, and prior to that it Avas the Georgia Avenue and Upshur
address, and after the Thirteenth Street address it was the Eighteenth
Street address.
Mr. Russell. Do you have an^^ definite recollection or any recollec-
tion whatsoever that the Rosens were in Washington during the year
1936?
Mr. BiALEK. I could not answer that. I do not know.
Mr. McDowell. You could not answer because you do not know?
Mr. BiALEK. I added that, sir. You see, that would fall in line,
I believe — you are Mr. McDowell ?
Mr. ]\I( DowELL. Yes.
Mr. BiALEK. I believe that would fall in line with my trying to
place them at the 3721 Kansas Avenue address. It is fairlj^ difficult
to go back 20 years at 1113' age and be too accurate.
Sir. Russell. When did you leave oi- move fi'om the Kansas Avenue
address, can you recall that ?
Mr. BiALEK. I et's see now. This is 1948 — it makes it 11 3'ears at
the Eighteentli Street address, which would bring us back to 1937;
5 years prior to that would be 1932. I wo&ld assume from this calcu-
lation that we moA^ed to the Kansas Avenue address in 1927, and if
that were the correct date we lived there, renting the house, for 5 years.
Mr. Russell. Did the Rosens live on Kansas Avenue at that time ?
Mr. BiALEK. I do not knoAv their address.
Mr. Russell. Do you recall what type of business the Rosens were
engaged i n at that time ? Or at the time you knew them ?
Mr. BiALEK. I do not know.
Mr. Russell. Do you know whether or not they were operating a
tailor shop ?
Mr. BiALEK. I cannot answer that accurately.
Mr. Russell. Well, by giving the past addresses, does that recall to
memory the approximate date when you first met the RoSens, that is,
the ones that you have stated that you know ?
j\Ir. BiALEK. If I recall correctly, they are a few years older than
I, that is, Cyril and Eugene ; and Lionel, I believe, is the oldest son,
or the oldest boy, so the only reason that I even recall them is when
Mr. Wheeler came around and asked me if I knew any Rosens, and
ill retrosjiect those are tlie ones that came to mind. I was never very
close to them, probably because of the age difference. I do not knov^.
Mr. Russell. Do you know what school they might have attended ?
Mr. BiALEK. I really do not know.
Mr. Russell. Do you know whether they attended school in Wash-
ington, D. C. ?
Mr. BiALEK. I could not answer that, because I do not know.
Mr. Russell. Do you have any recollection as to how you met them ?
Mr. BiALEK. That would be difficult to answer. It was — let me
think — it it is hard to go back that far and remember how you met a.
person, especially if they are not impressed deeply upon your mind.
1236 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. RUSSELL. Did you belong to any type of organization at that
time?
Mr. BiALEK. To the best of my knowledge, the first organization I
belonged to was when I went to college. I joined a fraternity, and I
believe that year was 1935.
Mr. McDowell. What college '?
Mr. BiALEK. George Washington University, sir.
Mr. Russell. Were you associating w^ith the Rosens at that time, in
1935?
Mr. Bl^lek. Now, how do you mean, associated?
Mr. Russell. Well, did you know them, did you ever see them
during the years 1935 or 1936?
Mr. BiALEK. Well, if I saw them, I could not be accurate as to
exactly when. The only time they ever fit into the picture is the
Kansas Avenue address. That is as far as I can recollect.
Mr. Russell. You have no idea as to where they lived during the
period you knew them ?
Mr. Blvlek. I could not answer that at all.
Mr. Russell. Yesterda}^, did you loan your automobile to your
brother, Robert ?
Mr. BiALEK. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Russell. What sort of an automobile was that?
Mr. BiALEK. It was a 1948 Plymouth coupe, black.
Mr. Russell. For what pur]Dose did he use it ?
Mr. BiALEK. I did not ask him.
Mr. Russell. Did he tell you why he wanted it?
Mr. BiALEK. He just asked me if he could borrow it.
Mr. Russell. Does he have an automobile of his own?
Mr. BiALEK. He has never had an automobile of his own.
Mr. Russell. Whose car does he generally use?
Mr. BiALEK. I do not know whose car he generally uses. All I
know is when he asked me for mine, and it is available, he has always
had access to it.
Mr. Russell. In recent years has he ever driven a 1929 Ford
roadster ?
Mr, BiALEK. Let me say this : I cannot say wliat he has driven, and
blanket the 21: hours a clay for 365 days a year, but I can say this :
As far as -I know I have never seen him iii' a '29 Ford of any
description.
Mr. Russell. Yesterday when he borrowed your car he did not tell
you why he wanted it, is that correct?
Mr. BiALEK. That is right, as far as I can recall. I mean, he has
never said he wants to do this or that. He just says, "Is the car here?"
Usually I do not have my car.
Mr. Russell. For what period of time did he use your car yes-
terday ?
Mr. BiALEK. He brought it back, I would say, around 4. You
were there at the time, were you not, Mr. Wheeler ?
Mr. Wheeler. Yes.
Mr. BiALEK. I think he picked it up in the morning. When I went
to work \n the morning I left it over to be washed, and have gas put
into it, and when it was ready, I don't know, I just told him he could
have it when it was ready, and maybe he waited around or maybe he
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1237
did not. I do not know. The exact time would not be accurate because
of that, but it seems to me it was in the morning.
Mv. Russell. Mr. Bialek, do you belong to any organizations at
the present time ?
Mv. Bialek. Yes; I belong to the D. C. Pharmaceutical Associa-
tion. I belong to the American Pharmaceutical Association. I am a
member of the fraternity that I joined when I was at the university.
That is all I can recall now.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever been a member of the Biro-Bijdan
Committee ?
Mr. Bialek. The what ?
Mr. Russell. The Biro-Bijdan Committee.
Mr. Bialek. I do not know that.
Mr. Rt^ssELL. Do you know whether or not anyone in your family
has ever been active in the affairs of the committee?
Mr. Bialek. What is it?
Mr. Russell. Do you know whether or not any member — the Biro-
Bijdan Committee is the one I am speaking of.
Mr. Bialek. What is that committee ? I do not know it.
Mr. Russell. It is a committee that was set up for the benefit of the
so-called province in Soviet Russia.
Mr. Bialek. Oh, Biro-Bijdan.
Mr. Russell. Yes.
Mr. Bialek. No ; I have heard of that committee.
Mr. Russell. Do you know whether or not any of the members of
your family have ever been active in the committee?
Mr. Bialek. To the best of my knowledge, no.
Mv. Russell. Do you know whether or not any of the members of
your family have ever solocited funds on behalf of that committee?
Mr. Bialek. I myself have not.
Mv. Russell. Have vou ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Bialek. I never have been a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Russell. Did you ever file application to become a member?
Mr. Bialek. I have never filed application to become a member of
the Comnmnist Party.
Mr. Russell. Has anyone ever attempted to solicit your membership
in the Communist Party?
Mr. Bialek. I have been solicited for a lot of things, I would not
know.
Mr. Russell. You would not know whether or not you were ever
asked to become a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Bialek. No.
Mv. Russell. Yesterday when j\Ir. W^heeler talked to you, did you
furnish him with specimens of your handwriting?
Mv. Bialek. Yes ; I did. I believe on two occasions.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Bialek. I show you a certificate of title of a motor
vehicle (exhibiting photostatic copy to witness), on the reverse side
of which there is written the name of William Rosen, with the address
5405 Thirteenth Street NW. I ask you whether or not the hand-
writing appearing thereon is similar to any person whom you may
know.
Mr. Bialek. May I study this?
1238 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Russell. Yes.
Mr. BiALEK. That is a hard question to answer. I have never seen
anyone write the name "William Rosen." I have seen myself write
this — well, I have seen myself do that.
Mr. Russell. The address?
Mr. Bialek. I am sorry, I have seen myself do that yesterday. I
am not an expert on this, but — no, that does not do anything for me.
I could not help you a thing with that.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever purchased any automobiles from
Cherner Motor Co. ?
Mr. Bialek. I, personally?
Mr. Russell. Yes.
Mr. Bialek. Never. I had a deposit there in 1945.
Mr. Russell. In 4946, do you recall whether or not you had a
Chevrolet sedan?
Mr. Bialek. I had a '46, blue, that is, two-tone blue, Chevrolet
sedan, which was the first car I had when I got out of the service.
Mr. Russell. Do you recall the name of the company from whom
you purchased?
Mr. Bialek. Lustine-Nicholson.
Mr. Russell. Do you recall what disposition was made of that
automobile?
Mr. Bialek. I traded it in on the present car I own now.
Mr. Russell. When j'ou purchased the first automobile from Lus-
tine-Nicholson, did you trade in another car?
Mr. Bialek. It was a straight cash deal.
Mr. Russell. Yes.
Mr. Bialek. The first car that I have ever owned in my life, inci-
dentally, I am proud of it.
Mr. Russell. When you traded the Chevrolet in on the Plymouth
did you change license plates?
Mr. Bialek. Gardner Motor Co. took care of all of that. I think it
was either the last part of January or the early part of January, and
I am sure they just changed title, changed the plates right then, and
then I changed my Maryland plates when I moved out to Maryland,
which I have on the car now.
Mr. Russell. Prior to the Chevrolet did you ever own any other
automobile?
Mr. Bialek. Prior to 1946?
Mr. Russell. 1946.
Mr. Bialek. Yes, I owned a 1941 Chevrolet convertible.
Mr. Russell. Do you recall how you purchased that automobile?
Mr. Bialek. From Lustine-Nicholson. I said that was a straight
cash deal.
Mr. Russell. That is a straight cash deal. That is a 1941 — the
Chevrolet?
Mr. Bialek. 1941 and 1946. You see, my car was sold after I went
into the service.
Mr. Russell. Prior to 1941 did you own any other automobile?
Mr. Bialek. I never did. I always drove my father's.
Mr. Russell. l\h: Chairman, Mr. Appell has a few questions he
would like to ask ^iv. Bialek.
Mr. McDowell. All right.
Mr. Appell. Do you know John Coddington ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1239
Mr. BiALEK. No ; to the best of my knowledge, no.
Mr. Appell. Sol Rosenthal? He has a brother by the name of
Allen.
Mr. BiALEK. To the best of my knowledge, no.
Mr. Appell. Do 3'ou know the van Eckhardts that live at 1730 Q
Street NW.?
Mr. BiALEK. To the best of my knowledge, no.
Mr. McDoAVELL. Mr. Russell.
Mr. Russell. When you lived on Thirteenth Street NW., did your
family ever have any boarders there or visitors who stayed for an
extended period of time?
Mr. BiALEK. We have never had a boarder living at our house until
my brother and I went into the service, in the years that I would re-
member, which would go back prior to 1936.
Mr. Russell. Are you personally acquainted with Joseph Cherner ?
Mr. BiALEK. I know the man when I see him. He is a fairly out-
standing man in the community, in my opinion. As far as any ac-
quaintances, I do not have any. I mean, you are bound to meet people
time and again, and give a nodding hello. I do not even know whether
he knows me. I would know him if I saw him.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Bialek, you appear before the committee by vir-
tue of a subpena which was served upon you yesterday by Mr.
Wheeler ?
Mr. Bialek. Yes, sir.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Vail.
Mr. Vail. ]\Ir. Bialek, have you been in close touch with the ac-
tivities, organizational activities, of your brother Robert in recent
years?
Mr. Bialek. Not close at all. You see, I was older than he, and
still older, we still exist; 414 years older than he is.
]Mr. Vail. Do you know whether or not Robert is a member of
the Communist Party?
Mr. Bialek. I could not answer that question, the same as he could
not answer it for me under oath.
Mr. Russell. You mean you do not know whether he is or not?
Mr. Bialek. I do not know, you see. I mean, the same way that
he would not know I am, yet I have made the statement here that I
never have been.
Mr. Vail. He has never discussed with you at any time his political
trend of thought ?
Mr. Bialek. Well, I know he is interested in the social sciences
because he took the social sciences in school. Beyond that, when I
came back from the service, I lived at the house for about 6 weeks,
I think it was. and then I moved to my own apartment ; and he came
back about 7 months after, and he lived in another part of town. Like
I say, he has never owned a car, to the best of my knowledge, and
there being a difference of ages, and a difference in the people we go
around with, we just do not meet, except when we have dinner over
at the folks house, or things like that, at which time, I mean any
family has discussions at one time or another. That is about all.
Mr. Vail. Did he at any time during the course of the discussions
indicate a radical tendency?
Mr. Bialek. In what respect, sir ?
1240 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Vail. Did he indicate at all at any time that he thought favor-
ably of the Communist movement ?
Mr. BiALEK. Well, I can say this: That I personally am not inter-
ested in the Communist movement and that, therefore, I would
remember had something like that transpired, I assume. I mean the
conversation just does not go along those lines. We are both of us
persons who have served the country during the w^ar, and we still feel
that having been born here in this country that — pardon me for saying
both, I, anyhoAv ; under oath he has to answer for himself, of course.
Mr. Vail. Do you belong to any of the veterans' organizations?
Mr. BiALEK. I do not at the present.
Mr. Vail. Have you ever belonged ?
Mr. BiALEK. I belonged to the American Veterans Committee when
I first came out of the service.
Mr. Vail. But you discontinued your membership?
Mr. BiALEK. I paid dues for 1 year. That is, I magine the dues run
for 1 year.
Mr. Vail. Does Robert belong to that organization?
Mr. BiALEK. I do not know. He did, I think. Now, I do not know
for sure.
Mr. Vail. I have no further questions.
Mr. McDowell. Are you through, ]\Ir. Eussell ?
Mr. Russell. Thank you very much.
Mr. BiALEK. May I make one request? I believe you have a check
that I gave Mr. Wheeler. Is it possible to get a transcript ?
Mr. McDowell. This is an executive session, Mr. Bialek. The per-
mission could only be given by the full committee.
Mr. BiALEK. I see.
Mr. McDowell. You might make that request to the chairman.
Mr. BiALEK. Well, how do I do that, in writing?
Mr. McDowell. Write Mr. Thomas.
Mr. Bialek. Thank you. v
Mr. McDowell. Yes.
The next witness, Mr. Russell.
Mr. Russell. Are you Robert Bialek?
Mr. Bialek. Yes. Do you mind if I chew gum ?
Mr. McDowell. It is all right. Raise your hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you shall give the committee
will be the truth, "the whole truth, and' nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mr. Bialek. I do.
Mr. McDowell. Sit down. You may chew gum and smoke.
All right, Mr. Russell.
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT BIALEK
]\Ir. Russell. Will you state your full name ?
"Sir. Bialek. Robert Bialek.
Mr. Russell. What is your present address?
Mr. Bialek. 829 Quinc;^ Street NW.
Mr. Russell. Where are you presently employed ?
Mr. Bialek. Colodny's Beverage Trade Service.
Mr. Russell. Will you spell that, please?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1241
Mr. BiALEK. C-o-l-o-d-n-y. I believe it is "n-y." I am not sure
wliether it is "n-y" or "n-e-y.''
Mr, Russell. Where are they located?
Mr. BiALEK. In the Cavalier Hotel Apartments.
Mr. Russell. In Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. BiALEK. Washington, D. C. I believe it is 3500 Fourteenth
Street.
Mr. Russell. How long have you have you been employed by that
concern ?
Mr. BiALEK. I really just started. Roughh^ 5 or 6 weeks.
Mr. Russell. Are you married or single ?
Mr. BiALEK. Married.
Mr. Russell. AVhat is your wife's name?
Mr. BiALEK. Dorothy Bialek.
Mr. Russell. Wliat was her maiden name?
Mr. Bialek. Dorothy Bick.
Mr. Russell. Where is she employed?
Mr. Bialek. She is not employed.
Mr. Russell. Does she work for the United Public AVorkers at
times ?
Mr. Bialek. I should qualify that. I do not know whether it is
formal employment now. She is filling in for a friend, where she
did work for a time with the United Public Workers half days. I
mean that is very temporary.
Mr. Russell. Temporary.
Mr. Bialek, are you acquainted with anyone by the name of Wil-
liam Rosen ?
Mr. Bialek. I have been racking my brains ; no, not to the best of
my knowledge.
Mr. Russell. Are you acquainted with Lionel Rosen ?
Mr. Bialek. Yes ; I mean, I remember a name Lionel Rosen.
Mr. Russell. You say you remember the name? Can you recall
where you lived at the time you knew him?
Mr. Bialek. Xo; because I — I mean it was not very recent, is the
point.
Mr. Russell. Do you know Cyril Rosen ?
Mr. Bialek. Yes ; they were brothers.
Mr. Russell. Have you had any recent contact with either one of
those two persons ?
Mr. Bialek. Xot to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Russell. Do you know Eugene Rosen?
Mr. Bialek. That was the third brother that I believe you men-
tioned ; yes. I mean in the same category, just as names pretty much.
Mr. Russell. Do you know xVddie Rosen, the mother, of Cyril,
Eugene, and Lionel?
Mr. Bialek. The first name is new to me, but I do know their
mother, and I have
Mr. Russell. Do you recall how you met them?
Mr. Bialek. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Russell. Do you know where they lived when you met them ?
Do you know whether or not they ever visited you or your family at
5405 Thirteenth Street XW.?
Mr. Bialek. To the best of my knowledge — well, I would say no.
1242 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
When I told you no — when I told you, I came down here at the time
of this transaction I was 14, that was 1936— well, you will get to that
yourself. I will let you get to that.
To the best of my knowledge, I would say no. I mean I never
knew any Rosens really well, not as close friends of the family or
anything like that.
Mr. Russell. Do you know Bernie Adler. or anyone by that name?
Mr. BiALEK. What was that name again ?
Mr. Russell. Bernie Adler.
Mr. BiALEK. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Russell. Do you know Monte Rosenheim ?
Mr. BiALEK. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Russell. Do you know anyone by the name of Joe Wasserman?
Mr. BiALEK. No.
Mr. Russell. Do you know anyone by the name of Irving Bland?
Mr. BiALEK. Not tx> the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Russell. Did you borrow your brother's automobile yesterday?
Mr. BiALEK. Yes.
Mr. Russell. Samuel's automobile?
Mr. BiALEK. Yes.
Mr. Russell. Will you tell the committee where you went in that
automobile ?
Mr. BiALEK. I made my rounds, calling, carrjdng out my job.
Mr. Russell. Did j^ou work yesterday ?
Mr. BiALEK. Yes.
Mr. Russell. Did you drive any other automobile yesterday?
Mr. BiALEK. Yes.
Mr. Russell. Whose was it ?
Mr. BiALEK. My boss's car.
Mr. Russell. What sort of a car was it ?
Mr. BiALEK. It is a Chevrolet, an old one, prewar. I do not know
the model of it. I really just
Mr. Russell. What is your boss's name?
Mr. BiALEK. Samuel Colodny.
Mr. Russell. How do you spell the last name ?
Mr. BiALEK. The same, that is the trade service which is named
after him.
Mr. Russell. Where is that car registered? What State is it
registered or is it registered in the District ?
Mr. BiALEK. It is registered in the District.
Mr. Russell. It is a prewar Chevrolet?
Mr. BiALEK. Yes, certainly late '30s.
Mr. Russell. Where did you take that car with you?
Mr. BiALEK. From my in-laws house to work, that is, to the office,
and I left it there.
Mr. Russell. Does Mr. Colodny reside with your in-laws?
Mr. BiALEK. No.
Mr. Russell. How was the car located at your in-laws' place?
Mr. BiALEK. Well, I had used his car for the last 3 days, because he
wns in Ncav York on a business trip.
Mr. Russell. Did something happen to his car yesterday ?
Mr. BiALEK. Not that he told me about.
Mr. Russell. Well, what was the reason for borrowing your
brother's car when you had this other car available ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1243
Mr. BiALEK. You see, he was away ; that is why I had it the 3 days.
That is really the first time I used it. I do not ordinarily use the car
on the job.
Mr. Russell. He came back yesterday ?
Mr. BiALEK. He came back the night before, but late.
Mr. Russell. Did you tow an automobile yesterday?
Mr. BiALEK. Tow one?
Mr. Russell. Yes. And you had nothing to do with any other
automobile yesterday ? Did you sell an automobile yesterday ?
Mr. BiALEK. No.
Mr. Russell. Did you ride in any other automobile yesterday?
Mr. Blalek. Yes.
Mr. Russell. Whose car was that?
Mr. Bl\lek. My father-in-law's car, and I rode with a couple of
other people.
Mr. Russell. Who were they ?
Mr. BiALEK. A Mr. Diamond ; I do not know exactly how you spell
his last name.
Mr. RusELL. Do you know his first name?
Mr. BiALEK. I do not know — it is — I do not know it exactly, I do
not know his first name formally — I do not know — I have never seen
his draft papers or anything like that. I call him Ike.
Mr. Russell. You call him what ?
Mr. BiALEK. Ike.
Mr. Russell. Could it be Isidore?
Mr. BiALEK. Well, it could be Isidore ; it could be Isaac. It might
be a nickname of some sort. I really do not knoAv. I am inclined to
think it is Isaac.
Mr. Russell. Where did you go with him ?
Mr. BiALEK. From the house of a friend to my in-laws.
Mr. Russell. Who was the friend ?
Mr. Bl\lek. Mr. Gerstein.
Mr. Russell. Do you know his first name ?
Mr. Bialek. JVIarvin. I used his car, too. We are close by, I mean
I just sort of went back and forth.
Mr. Russell. What sort of a car does Mr. Diamond have ?
Mr. Bialek. A Plymouth.
Mr. Russell. Do you know the model ?
Mr. Bialek. I would say it w^ould was a '39 or a '40, black coupe.
Mr. Russell. Where was it registered, in the District of Columbia?
Mr. Bialek. I should think so. It has got District tags. I am
vague about some of these things, because I have never had transactions
with cars.
Mr. Russell. What sort of a car does Mr. Gerstein have?
Mr. Bialek. A postwar Chevrolet.
Mr. Russell. Where is it registered?
Mr. Bialek. It has got District tags.
Mr. Russell. Did you give Mr. Gerstein's first name?
Mr. Bialek. Yes ; Marvin.
Mr. Russell. Marvin. Where did you take Mr. Gerstein's car ?
Mr. Bialek. Well, we just went back and forth from his address
to my in-laws.
Mr. Russell. Did you use any other automobiles yesterday ?
1244 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. BiALEK. No; I could have hardly had time, four in one day is
pretty o;ood, I think.
Mr. EussELL. Did any of those persons whose names you have men-
tioned dispose of an automobile in any way yesterday ? Did they sell
one, abandon one, or trade one ?
Mr. BiALEK. I have no way of knowing that. Primarily, I drove
one car, which was my brother's car. The others were for very short
times.
Mr. Russell. Do you know why you used those other cars in pref-
erence to your brother's ?
Mr. BiALEK. Well, my brother was good enough to lend me the
car. I do not customarily use it for my work, but it just so happened
that I used it, and I happened — I was returning it wdien Mr. Wheeler
was with my brother, and he had to get home to his family, so he
used it.
Mr. EussELL. Did you use other cars on company business?
Mr. BiALEK. No ; one more car there was I rode in.
Mr. EussELL. Yes.
Mr. BiALEK. We drove my mother to see her mother, who is on the
verge of death, and I went with my father's car. It is registered
in his name. It is a very short trip again, and the car my father has
Jie almost has not been able to drive since he bought it because of
his illness, wdiich you probably know about.
Mr. EussELL. What was your answer to the question ?
Did you use the other cars, that is, those belonging to Mr. Gerstein
and Diamond, on company business?
Mr. BiALEK. No ; I did not.
Mr. EussELL. Do you recall for what purpose you used them ?
Mr. BiALEK. Yes ; I do.
Mr. EussELL. What was the purpose?
Mr. BiALEK. To go back and forth between Mr. Gerstein's house
and where the Diamonds were eating dinner and my in-laws who are
very close by, so both cars happened to be available.
Mr. EussELL. Are you a member of any organizations at the present
time ?
Mr. BiALEK. Yes; I am a member of some organizations.
Mr. EussELL. Would you name them, please ?
Mr. BiALBK. Well, that is pretty difficult. I mean I have been a
member of quite a number of organizations or receive literature from
lots of organizations on which you sign cards to receive literature.
I have always been interested in social affairs.
Mr. EussELL. Will you name them ?
Mr. BiALEK. I really would not know what type of organizations
you mean. Any organizations?
Mr. Ei'ssELL. Any organizations.
Mr. McDowell. All of them.
Mr. BiALEK. Well, I am a member of the Progressive Party. I
really do not know of any others at this point that I am actually a
member of for t^ure.
Mr. EussELL. From what organizations do you receive literature?
Mr. BL\ij<Mi. A\'^ell, I have to refresh my memory on a lot of it,
because this is the summertime, and I received a lot of it intermittently,
and my duos have expired or my subscriptions have expired.
Mr. EussELL. Well, did you subscribe to the Daily Worker?
i COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1245
Mr. BiALEK. No.
Mr. RussrxL. You never subscribed to it?
Mr. BiALEK. No.
Ml'. Russell. Do you subscribe to the New Masses ?
Mr. BiALEK. No. '
Mr. KussELL. You never subscribed to the New Masses?
Mr. BiALEK. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Ri'ssELL. Do you subscribe to In Fact ?
Mr. BiALEK. Yes.
Mr. Russell. Do you subscribe to At Present? Are you a sub-
scriber at the present time ?
Mr. BiALEK. That is in a state of indecision. I do not liuow. I am
still receiving it. May I ask here what the purpose of all these ques-
tions is ? I thought I was coming down here to answer questions about
Rosen.
Mr. Russell. These questions are very pertinent to the inquiry
Avhich we are presently conducting regarding communistic activities
in the United States, espionage in the United States, and we are par-
ticularly interested, insofar as you are concerned, in certain activities
that you are known to have engaged in; and we are also interested
due to the fact that the address which you once occupied was given
as the address of a William Rosen.
Do you subscribe to Mainstream?
Mr. BiALEK. May I make a brief statement ? I mean, I have nothing
prepared. I came down on a very short notice.
Mr. Russell. Well, 3'ou know whether you subscribe to Mainstream
or not. Just tell me "yes'' or "no."
Mr. BiALEK. I will answer that question. But I mean it leads to a
whole line of questions, and I would ai)preciate the courtesy of being
allowed to make a statement. 1 am not trying to make— —
Mr. Russell. We would appreciate the courtesy of an answer.
Then, if you have a statement to make, you can take it up with the
chairman of the committee.
Mr. McDowell. AVill you answer the question, Mr. Bialek ?
Mr. Bialek. Mr. Chairman, ma;/ I make a brief statement now?
I have nothing prepared
Mr. McDow^ELL. Yes; go ahead and make your statement.
Mr. Bialek. I came here on the supposition that I was testifying,
not that I would have defied a subpena or anj^thing like that, but
that I was going to testify regarding William Rosen, and so forth.
Now, I find that I am going into all sorts of matters of conscience
and things about which I am not certain, as a layman, of all my legal
rights, and I just cannot see the bearing of this.
I am asked about — I am bringing friends' names in here, and,
frankly, I have not been accustomed to getting fair treatment from
this committee. My name has been dragged through the mud on a
couple of times on the basis of secret testimony, and when people
ask for the opportunity to testify or refuse that testimony they were
never given that opportunity.
All of a sudden, 8 months later, I am brought in here and asked
a whole line of questions again. I would like the opportunity to
have a little time to consult with counsel or bring counsel.
Mr. McDoAVELL. You have a right to have counsel, and we will
grant you the right to have counsel.
1246 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. BiALEK. I am sorry ; go on.
Mr, McDowell. The pertinency of the inquiry and the questions
propounded will ultimately be determined by the committee.
Mr. BiALEK. I understand that.
Mr. McDo\\T-LL. Your inquiry about the questions here is of in-
terest to you, not of us. It is of a pertinency to the committee to know
whether you are a subscriber to New Masses.
Mr. EussELL. And Mainstream.
Mr. McDowell. That is the question propounded.
Mr. BiALEK. On that particular question ; no.
Mr. Russell. Do you subscribe to Political Affairs ?
Mr. BiALEK. No.
Mr. Russell. Were you a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. BiALEK. No.
Mr. Russell. Will you state the answer again ?
Mr. BiALEK. No.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever filed application to become a member
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. BiALEK. No.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever attended any meetings of the Com-
muinst Party ?
Mr. BiALEK. I could not name any — not to the best of my knowl-
edge. I mean, I have gone to lots of meetings, as I say, just as I
receive publications from lots of organizations over a long period of
time. I might have attended meetings of any sort. I drop in on
street meetings or, you know, all sorts of pul^lic meetings. I have
been around pretty generally.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever been solicited to join the Communist
Party?
Mr. BiALEK. Yes.
Mr. Russell. How many times?
Mr. BiALEK. How many times? I do not know. The Communist
Party is always trying to recruit people from time to time. Various
people have tried to recruit me.
Mr. Russell. Who requested you to join the Communist Party?
Mr. BiALEK. I do not remember any names offhand, because I guess
they gave up a long time ago. Again, sir, you might have ideas about
Communists and I might have ideas about Communists. But this
is certainly a matter of conscience, and although — I mean, I have told
the truth, and everything, I certainly object to this line of questioning,
having made my position clear, because I am not going to talk about —
you get my point — I do not like to talk about people.
Mr. Russell. We will outline the committee's position on com-
munism. Communists are agents of a foreign power, Soviet Russia,
they are enemies of this Government, they have carried on activities
on behalf of the Russian Government throughout the United States,
in labor unions, the Government, the movie industry, and in every
other phase of American life.
Now, you explain your position on communism.
Mr. BiALEK. Now, you see what I am getting at, sir. Here he is
asking me strictly a matter of conscience.
Mr. Russell. You brought the subject up.
Mr. McDowell. You can skip that if you wish.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1247
Mr. BiALEK. All right.
Mr. Russell. Do you recall any other organizations that you have
ever belonged to? Operation Subsistence, for instance?
Mr. BiALEK. I was active in Operation Subsistence, of course. That
is a matter of public record.
Mr. McDowell. What is Operation Subsistence, Mr. Russell?
Mr. Russell. Mr. Appell has more knowledge about Operation
Subsistence than I have.
]\Ir. Appell. Mr. Chairman, Operation Subsistence was, I would say,
a movement which was formed here in Washington, D. C, for the
purpose of bringing veterans from all over the country throughout
the United States to Washington to lobby for increased subsistence al-
lowances. They lobbied for — I do not know whether they got exactly
what they were seeking, this particular group or other veteran groups —
an increase in subsistence here in the United States.
Mr. Russell. Certain members, certain persons who were attached to
Operation Subsistence testified before the committee, and Mr. Bialek's
name was mentioned during the course of the testimony.
Mr. McDowell. I see.
Mr. Russell. The reason I asked him awhile ago was that he made
a statement that he had not received fair treatment from this com-
mittee, and I was giving him the opportunity to explain his position
on communism.
Mr. McDowell. That is right. I think I understand the questions,
and the suggestion of the investigator. I would like to make it clear
here that it was not a demand-, it was not a question. You brought
up the matter yourself about your own thoughts. If you want to
explain it, you can. If you do not want that, that is all right.
Mr. BiALEK. I would just as soon forget about it,
Mr. Russell. Well, in what way has the committee given you unfair
treatment ?
I mean, you have a chance here to put it on the record.
Mr. BiALEK. I do not feel I have an adequate chance, and I do not
feel that it is — as the chairman said, I do not have to answer it, I
choose not to.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. BiALEK. No.
Mr. Russell. Never have?
Mr. Bl\lek. No.
Mr. Russell. I have no further questions.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Appell.
Mr. Appell. Do you know John Coddington ?
Mr. BiALEK. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Appell. Lillian Tuma?
Mr. BiALEK. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Appell. Who lives at 6224 Piney Branch Road NW. ?
Mr. BiALEK. Marvin Gerstein.
Mr. McDowell. I did not get the answer.
Mr. BiALEK. Marvin Gerstein, the person whose car I used.
Mr. Appell. He is the man who organized Operation Subsistence?
Mr. BiALEK. I thought we were not going into that now.
1248 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. McDowell. Oh, yes. We will go into anything that the com-
mittee thinks pertinent. This is a pertinent question, so an answer
is required, Mr. Bialek.
Mr. Bialek. Well, would you repeat the question, then?
Mr. Appell. Was Marvin Gerstein the founder of Operation Sub-
sistence ?
Mr. Bialek. Well, there was no one founder of Operation Sub-
sistence.
Mr. Appell. Marvin Gerstein was the head of it, was he not?
Mr. Bialek. He was the only one who held any sort of position,
that is, it was very loosely organized.
Mr. Appell. Who organized it?
Mr. Bialek. I do not know that that tribute can be laid to any one
person. It was a very spontaneous movement on the part of veterans
in the face of the high cost of living. Veterans' groups were coming
from all over the country.
Mr. Appell. How did these veteran groups come from all over the
country ?
Mr. Bialek. Well, I mean, you see, this is after 8 months, and I did
not expect — I mean, I just do not have all the records, but very
roughly I can give you the general picture on it.
Mr. Appell. Yes.
Mr. Bialek. I was active in AVC, American Veterans Committee,
I am sorry, American Veterans Committee, and in a college chapter,
George Washington University, some letters came there from other
American Veterans Committee chaptervS, I mean. George Washing-
ton is the largest university in town, but I do not know all the rea-
sons for it. I do not have all the records. I do not know where they
are.
In other words, it was a very loose sort of — we were the hosts, m
terms of heljiing them put people up, and making appointments here,
simply because we Avere here. It was a very loosely constructed busi-
ness.
Mr. Appell. There were a group of veterans here from De Paul
University in Illinois?
Mr. Bialek. That is riglit.
Mr. Appell. Did they write in, or wasn't it a fact that you people,
through leaflets, invited them to come down ?
Mr, Bialek. Well, I do not know which came first, the chicken or
the egg there. I mean, you see, there are a lot of peo]de who came
that we never heard of, simply peo])le who had read the newspaper
stories, and I believe there was correspondence between the two groups.
To the best of mv recollection they asked. I am reallv not sure of
that.
Mr. Appell. Where does Marvin Gerstein live now?
Mr. Bialek. I do not mean to be hazy about that. I do not feel
that there is anything wrong or anything like that. Certainly I, as
a matter of fact, never got the increase in subsistence myself. I was
forced to leave school because of illness an(l other financial reasons.
Mr. Appell. Where does Marvin Gerstein live now?
Mr. Bialek. He is at 6224 Piney Branch Road.
Mr. Apina.L. Who made tlie arrangements of the A^arious residences
that these boys were to be put up in? Who handled that function?
Mr. Bialek. I really do not know. I mean
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1249
Mr. Api'ell. They were instnieted to call on you.
Mr. BiALEK. Yes; they were instructed to call me, but more than
one person worked on it here.
Mr. AiTELL. I assume you were the chairman of the arrangements
committee or the housino; connnittee or whatever they called it?
Mr. BiALEK. Yes; again this is 8 months ago. and I really do not
remember everybody who worked on the thing now. Lots of things
have hajipened in the last 8 months.
Mr. Ai'PELL. Who arranged the informal parties that you had here
aftenvards, the veterans who had arrived in town?
Mr. BiALEK. No informal parties were arranged.
Mr. Appell. What did you say?
Mr. BiAKEK. No informal parties were arranged.
Mr. Appell. You did not have any parties ?
Mr. BiALEK. One party, one party was held where all the delegates
were invited.
Mr. Appell. Where was that held?
Mr. BiALEK. At the home of Mr. Lichtenstein.
Mr. Appell. Who put up the petitions for signing to abolish the
Committee on Un-American Activities?
Mr. BiALEK. I neA'er saw such a petition.
Mr. Appell. You were there?
]Mr. BiALEK. Yes.
Mr. Appell. You never saw them ?
Mr. BiALEK. I did not see them.
INir. Appell. You did not ask anyone to sign the petition?
Mr. BiALEK. I was too bu.sy that night to ask anj'body to sign
petitions.
Mr. Appell. Did you or did 3'ou not ?
Mr. BiALEK. No; I say — no.
Mr. Appell. Do you know a f amilv by the name of Hyde ?
]Mr. BiALEK. Of course, I know ]\Ir. Mark Hyde.
Mr. Appell. Did you arrange to have some students put up at the
residence of Mark Hyde?
]Mr. BiALEK. I do not remember specifically. I think I did, but I
really did not meet him until after. I mean, in other words, he was
Just a name that was gathered, and I probably participated in the
phone calls. The four boA-s from De Paul came in early.
Mr. Appell. Have ycm ever attended any meetings at the residence
of Mark Hyde?
Mr. BiALEK. No.
Mr. Appell. Social or otherwise? Have you ever attended any
meetings at which Mark Hyde Avas present?
Mr. BiALEK. I do not know. I have gone, as I say, I have gone to
lots of meetings. I w^ould guess that I have certainly been at some-
where he has been present. It is certainly possible.
Mr. Appell. How long have you known Mary Ann Lichtenstein?
Is that the daughter's name ?
Mr. BiALEK. Yes.
Mr. Appell. How long have you knowni her?
Mr. BiALEK. Ever since her mother was ]iregnant.
Mr. Appell. Then, you knew her literally all her life. Have you
ever attended any meetings with Mary Ann Lichtenstein?
80408—48 48
1250 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. BiALEK. I am sure that I have been at some meetings with her.
Mr. Appell. Do you remember what those meetings were ?
Mr. BiALEK. Well, they would only be Wallace party meetings.
She is a young girl.
Mr. Appell. What meetings have you attended with Marvin
Gerstein ?
Mr, BiALEK. American Veterans Committee, Wallace party, of
course, Operation Subsistence. I cannot recall any others offhand.
Mr. Appell. Where is Gerstein employed now ?
Mr. BiALEK. That I really do not know.
Mr. Appell. You don't know ?
Mr. BiALEK. No. By "really" I do not mean it in any sense other
than the colloquial sense. I do not mean to say that that is any truer
than anything else I have said.
Mr. Appell. Do you know Paul Hockman ?
Mr. BiALEK. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Appell. Do you know Dorothy Hockman?
Mr. BiALEK. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Appell. Do the Hydes have a dog ?
Mr. McDowell. Did you say "dog"?
Mr. Appell, Yes.
Mr. BiALEK. They are reported to have had two dogs.
Mr. Appell. You have never seen it, though ?
Mr. BiALEK. I do not recall seeing it.
Mr. Appell. Have you ever been in the residence of ]\Irs. van
Eckhardt, 1730 Q Street ?
Mr. BiALEK. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Appell. Do you know Allen Rosenthal ?
Mr. BiALEK. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Appell. Those are all the questions I have.
Mr. Russell. Mr. McDowell, I have a couple of more questions.
Did you ever own a 1929 Ford roadster ?
Mr. BiALEK. No.
Mr. Russell. Did you ever drive a 1929 Ford roadster ?
Mr. BiALEK. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Russell. Mr. McDowell, I do not believe that Robert Bialek
signed this particular document in which we are interested. How-
ever, the handwriting examiners would be interested in determining
whether or not there might be some family characteristics in his
handwriting which might assist them in determining the name of the
individual or the identity of the person who did write the name
"William Rosen," and for that reason I would like to take some hand-
writing specimens from Mr. Bialek.
Mr. McDowell. All right. Mr. Bialek, the Federal law provides
that this committee or a court may require you to submit specimens of
your handwriting. We will therefore require you to do that now.
Mr. Russell. Just write the name "William Rosen, 5405 Thirteenth
Street NW."— print the "NW."
(Mr. Bialek complies.)
Mr. Russell. That is enough, thank you.
Mr. McDowell. Do you have some more questions, Mr. Russell?
Mr, Russell. That is all.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Vail.
Mr. Vail. You were in the service in the last war, were you not ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1251
•
Mr. BiALEK. Yes, sir.
Mr. Vail. After getting out of the service, did you join any veter-
ans' organizations ?
Mr. BiALEK. Yes, sir.
Mr. Vail. What organizations ?
Mr. BiALEK. The American Legion, American Veterans' Committee,
Veterans Ckib of George Washington University.
Mr. Vail. Are you still a member of the American Veterans Com-
mittee ?
Mr. BiALEK. No ; my dues expired recently.
Mr. Vail. Are you still a member of the Legion ?
Mr. BiALEK. Probably the same situation.
Mr. Vail. You have two brothers, Mr. Bialek. Did they belong to
servicemen's organizations ?
Mr. BiALEK. My kid brother is not old enough. I do not know
what organizations my older brother belongs to, except for the Ameri-
can Veterans Committee. I mean, he perhaps does not — I am sure
he does not now. I mean, dues expire. I do not know what his situ-
ation is. He did.
Mr. Vail. Do you now or have you belonged at anytime to any
Communist front organizations that have been so described by this
committee or by the Attorney General?
Mr. Bialek. Well, I have given the names of the organizations that
I recollect.
Mr. Vail. And they embrace the complete list of organizations ?
Mr. Bialek. Well, I gave an answer to that before, which was that
I received mail or
Mr. Vail. Well, the question of whether or not you received mail
has no bearing on whether or not you joined an organization.
Mr. Bialek. I am sorry. In many cases it does, because there is a
way of receiving their literature, their pamphlets, on social problems
or their particular slant on current events, and so forth, and I guass
technically you are a member, and I do not say I guess — I know tech-
nically you are considered a member of a lot of these organizations.
Mr. Vail. You have indicated that you know a family by the name
of Lichtenstein, the family of Sam Lichtenstein, very well.
Mr. Bialek. Well, he is my uncle. I mean, there is a relationship
there.
Mr. McDoAVTELL. He is your uncle, did you say ?
Mr. Bialek. Yes.
Mr. Vail. Is it true that Mr. Lichtenstein is a member of certain
Communist front organizations?
Mr. Bialek. I do not know.
Mr. Vail. How well do you know Mark Hyde ?
Mr. Bialek. Very, very casually, and very recently, mostly on the
basis of some misinformation which was put out.
Mr. Vail. Were you aware of the fact that he was a member of a
certain Communist organization, a Communist-front organization?
Mr. Bialek. I know him very casually. What his organizational
connections are, I do not know.
Mr. Vail. When these boys were quartered at the homes of Hyde
and Lichtenstein, as I recall their testimony, it was to the effect that
there was a pronounced sympathy indicated in both homes for the
Communist movement. They contained Communist literature, and at
1252 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
various meetings that were held of the Subsistence group, the discus-
sion related less to Operation Subsistence than it did to discussions of
communistic material, and the Progressive Party movement.
Did that Operation Subsistence movement have a twofold motive
in bringing GI's to Washington? Was it for the purpose of propa-
gandizing or was it specifically for the purpose, for which it was os-
tensibly set up, of lobbying for the Subsistence purpose?
Mr. BiALEK. I appreciate your belated curiosity. Congressman VaiL
It was Operation Subsistence. We got an increase in subsistence, not
adequate, but we got something. We could haA^e used a helluva lot
more, frankly, at that stage of the game. And, as a matter of fact, the
group is not even functioning now. We are interested in subsistence.
If it puzzled you then, you could have asked lots of people then.
Where some of these people are now, I do not know. They asked to
testify, people from the same area as the De Paul boys, and how true
it is — I understand they asked to debate the DePaul boys in front of
the DePaul student body, and they were even denied that privilege.
If they want to snoo}) around people's houses and abuse their hos-
pitality, that is up to them. We were concerned with subsistence.
They were the only ones who were concei'ned with anything else.
Mr. McDonald. Are you all through?
Mr, Appell. Did Marvin Gerstein ever ask you to join the Com-
munist Party ?
Mr. BiALEK. No.
Mr. McDowell. What was that question ?
Mr, Appell. Did Marvin ever ask him to join the Communist
Party?
Mr. BiALEK. No.
Mr. McDowell. Are you through ?
Mr. Appell. Yes.
Mr. McDowell. I have no questions, but I think, Mr, Bialek, you
and the committee understand each other perfectly. I do not see any
point or any profit in going into any further questioning. It might
be a good idea to take back the word to the comrades that the Ameri-
can Government, the American people, for the first time in history
are going to face squarely the Communist Party, because we believe
the Communist Party is designed by a foreign power to destroy our
counti-y.
There are 140,000,000 of us. We have been here for 165 years.
This is a free country. The Congress and people, about 99.9 percent
of tlie people, are going to see that we keep it this Avay.
You are dismissed.
Mr. Bialek. May I ask one question, sir?
May I have a transcript of this?
Mr. McDowell. I will tell you the rules under which the House
operates. This is an executive session. You are appearing before a
subcommittee. We do not have the power to grant permission to
have the transcript that you request. Your a})peal should be made to
the fulJ connnittee, and I would suggest that if you want a transcript
that you direct a letter to the full committee requesting it. It has to
be given to you by a vote of the full committee. I do not see any
reason Avhy you should not get it.
Mr. Bl\lek. I do not know how these things are handled in rela-
tion to the press, and so forth.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1253
Mr. McDowell. Just write a letter to the committee.
Mr. BiALEK. And thev will let me know the disposition of it.
Mr. McDowell. Yes; I might tell you that I see no reason why you
should not have it.
Mr. BiALEK. You see no reason why I should not have it?
]Mr. McDowell. Yes.
Mr. BiALEK. Except that I do not know the protocol on executive
sessions, and stuff like that. But that is sufficient.
Mr. JNIcDowELL. Under ordinary circumstances you would be for-
bidden to say anything about it to any person. I see no reason why
that should be stated to you. AVhatever you want to do or say, go
right ahead.
You are dismissed.
Mr. BiALEK. All right.
Mr. McDowell. That is all for today.
(Whereupon, at 1: 10 p. m., the subcommittee adjourned.)
HEAEINGS REGARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
FRIDAY, AUGUST 27, 1948
United States House or Representatives,
Special Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington^ D. C.
executive session
43
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 6 : 30 p. m., in room 226,
Old House Office Building, Hon. Karl E. Mundt presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Karl E. Mundt and
Richard M. Nixon.
Staff members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator;
Louis J. Russell; and William A. Wheeler, investigators.
Mr. Mundt. The committee will come to order.
Will you be sworn, Mr. Chambers, please?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so lielp vou
God?
Mr. Chambers. I do.
TESTIMONY OF WHITTAKER CHAMBERS
Mr. Mundt. Mr. Nixon, will you ask the witness the questions you
have in mind ?
Mr. Nixon. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chambers, you have been called to this executive session for the
purpose of giving the committee any information you may have con-
cerning your acquisition of a piece of property in Westminster, Md.,
which the records indicate was also at one time either acquired by Mr.
Alger Hiss or was
Mr. Mundt. I think the records show that Mr. Alger Hiss forfeited
on the purchase contract.
Mr. Nixon. That is correct.
Now, Mr. Chambers, did you CA^er acquire any property in West-
minster, Md. ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know of your own knowledge whether Mr. Alger
Hiss ever acquired or attempted to acquire some property in West-
minster, Md. ?
*' Testimony taken in executive session and made public with this printing.
1255
1256 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Chambers. He attempted. To the best of my knowledge, he
never acquired property in Westminster, Md.
Mr. Nixon. Was this property that he attempted to acquire the same
property that you acquired?
Mr. Chambers. That is true.
Mr. MuNDT. Was it a farmhouse ?
Mr. Chambers. It was a small, rather ramshackle, unpainted Mary-
land, very small, Maryland farmhouse that had been built by a local
carpenter for himself and his wife.
Mr. MuNDT. Would you tell the committee when you first discussed
this house with Mr. Hiss ?
Mr. Chambers. Shall I just give it chronologically?
Mr. MuNDT. Yes ; tell the committee in your own words.
Mr. Nixon. Will you identify the house?
Mr. Chambers. That is the house.
Mr. Nixon. Let the record show the witness has been shown a copy
of the Baltimore News-Post for August 27.
Mr. Chambers. That is the house as of today.
Mr. Nixon. But you recognize that as the house ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; that is the house.
Mr. MuNDT. Will you first describe the differences in the appear-
ance of the house as of today and when you saw it.
Mr. Chambers. In the first place, when we first got it this basement
room had not been built. That was just a porch or part of the house
jutting over the ground on stilts. We added this concrete basement,
the window. Then, the electricity was put in by us. I think those are
the chief differences.
Mr. MuNDT. I think I should tell the committee that this morning
early when Mr. Ault, the reporter who wrote that story for the Balti-
more News-Post, came down to see me, he described the house and I
looked at it and said, "This doesn't seem to be such a dilapidated house
as you described on the telephone." I talked with the former owner
and Mr. Case, the real-estate man, and he said at the time it was pur-
chased by Hiss, and at the time it was purchased by Chambers, it had
a porch which was built on stilts, and completely corroborates the
description you have just given.
Mr. Chambers. Yes. That porch was in very bad shape, and the
roof was practically rotted away.
Mr. MuNDT. You may proceed in your own words and tell the com-
mittee everything you can recall about that series of events.
Mr. Chambers. As well as I can remember, Mr. Hiss and I had talked
about how much each of us would like to have a small place in the
country somewhere, but particularly I would like to have a small place
in the country.
Some time after such conversation, I think it was he who unearthed
an advertisement of Mr. Case's. That is Edward Case in Westminster.
The advertisement was for this property and at a very low price. I
thiulc it was $500. There was also included a little, ramshackle barn.
Mr. Hiss then got in touch with Mr. Case and made a down payment
or deposit of some kind.
Mr. Nixon. How do you know that, Mr. Chambers?
Mr. Chambers. He must have told me that.
Mr. Nixon. You are testifying then from your recollection?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1257
Mr. CiiAMiiER-s. I am testif^'intr from my recollection. I just
brushed this story before I came here, didn't read it carefully at all.
He then at some time took Mrs. Hiss up there, and Mrs. Hiss did
not like the place and did not like the countryside. I heard her say
this.
Mr. Nixon. You lieard Mrs. Hiss say she didn't like the place?
Mr. Chambers. Some such expression like "a nasty, narrow valley."
Mr. Nixox. "Nasty, narrow valley''?
]\Ir. Chambers. Which is natural for somebody brought up in the
Pennsylvania valleys.
Tlien, Hiss called off his arrangement with the realtor. Then, some
time later, according to my recollection almost a year, but I could be
mistaken. I appeared on the scene; that is. I got in touch with Case —
I left out an important thing — I made one trip up there with Alger
Hiss.
Mr. NixoN. You did ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. Only one. that you can recall ?
Mr. Chambers. Only one. I think. Mrs. Hiss may have been there,
too. but I do not recall that.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall which car you took that trip in?
Mr. Chambers. My recollection is it was the old one.
Mr. Nixon. In other words, he still had the old car at that time ?
Mr. Chambers. I think so. I am pretty sure it wasn't the Plym-
outh, because the roads at that time were frightful. They also have
been improved since that date, but that house stood on something
called Bixler's Church Road, and that is rough and with wet spots
that were practically the year around. neA^er got much better. I am
afraid he couldn't have got the other car up there without being
mired. I think it had to be the Ford.
I notice in this story it is stated that we stayed at the hotel. I gather
the hotel in Westminster. I am sure that isn't true. I don't think it
could possibly haA'e been true.
So. I made one trip up there with him and saw this place. It was
after that that he called off this arrangement and then still later — as
nearly as I can recall, it was a good deal later — that I came into the
picture.
I also left the deposit with the agent. Now there is a point that has
to be clarified. Hiss did not know that I was in the picture then,
T did not want him to know it. because I bought the house under my
name, and didn't want him to know mv real name. As far as I know
he never knew I had that place, nor did I want him to. I had a great
deal of trouble with the realtor over the business. I think this should
be off the record.
Mr. MuNDT. Off the record.
(Discussion was had outside the record.)
Mr. Chambers. Case finally came through under pressure from the
city treasurer of Westminster, a man named Eugene Walsh, who I
think is also related to him in some way. Mr. Walsh fixed things up
very nicely, and we got some kind of tax-dejtktitle to the place, but
that was way late in the game. That mav have been in 1937 or 1938.
Mr. Nixon. Let's go back to the time when you first heard about this
])lace from Mr. Hiss. Was it Mr. Hiss or Mrs. Hiss with whom you
first discussed this particular piece of property?
1258 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Chambers. I think it was Alger Hiss.
Mr. NixoTs^. That came up, you testified, as a result of the two of you
having talked about getting a place in the country ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; but I must take the greater part of the blame
for that. ]\Iy interest was in the country, rather than his. The im-
petus came from me.
Mr. Nixon. Then, Mr. Hiss, you say, though, found the original ad,
as you recall ?
Mr. Chambers. I am reasonably sure it was he who found the ad.
Mr. NixoK. Did you know that Mr. Hiss or Mrs. Hiss had contacted
the real-estate agent or what did you know about the actual business
end of the transaction?
Mr. Chambers. Very little. I knew he had made a deposit at some
time, but I don't recall now anything else and didn't realize there
was this vast correspondence involved.
Mr. Nixon. You are speaking of the correspondence that now ap-
pears ?
Mr. Chambers. There are some letters in here.
Mr. Nixon. But you do know that the Hisses told you that they had
made a deposit?
Mr. Chambers. That is certain.
Mr. MiJNDT. It was mentioned in the ai>ticle that Hiss left some
tools in the place at the time he lost his deposit or that they raised the
price on him and he decided to let the property go back. 1 think they
said in the article, or the reporter told me, the tools were still there.
Mr. Chambers. I think this should be off the record.
Mr. MuNDT. Off the record.
(Discussion was had outside the record.)
Mr. Nixon. Let's get back to what you and the Hisses knew aljout
this house. You discussed the deposit. You also testified that Mrs.
Hiss didn't like the place.
Mr. Chambers. That is true.
Mr. Nixon. "¥^ou recall her mentioning the fact that she didn't like
it?
Mr. Chambers. Definitely.
, Mr. Nixon. Now you also recall that you and Mr. Hiss took a trip
up there ?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. And you are certain you took that trip ?
Mr. Chambers. Positive.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall whether you stayed overnight when you
went on that trip ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; I am sure we didn't.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know what day it was? Was it on a Sunday
or a weekday?
Mr. Chambers. I don't recall, but presumably it would have been
on a week end rather than a weekday.
Mr. Nixon. Did Mr. Hiss ask you to go up, do you recall, or do you
recall how the trip was planned ?
Mr. Chambers. I don't, but he probably did ask me.
Mr. Nixon. Do you remember the road that you went to go up to
Westminster? Did you go through Baltimore, or did you go through
Gaithersburg?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1259
Mr. Chambers. I think Gaithersburo;. I think that was the first
time I had been up that road, and the thing that I am impressed with
was the sharp turn at a place called Damascus,
Mr. Nixon. Xow, do you recall anything else about that trip?
Did you drive, or did Hiss drive ''(
Mr. Chambers. No : I think he drove.
Mr. Nixon. Was it raining, do you recall ?
Mr. Chambers. I don't think so. My recollection is it was warm
weather, but I gather from this that it w^asn't.
Mr. Nixon. You mean you are referring now to the period this
occurred ?
Mr. Chambers. The story.
Mr. Nixon. You testify from your recollection you think it was
warm weather ?
Mr. Chambers. I think it was warm weather, but I don't think it
was cold.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you eat any place along the way; did you take
a picnic lunch or stop at a hamburger stand, eat in a restaurant or
hotel or make the trip up and back between eating periods?
Mr. Chambers. I don't recall. I don't think we ate in Westminster.
Mr. Nixon. Did you go see the real-estate man ?
Mr. Chambers. No : I think we went up directly to the place.
Mr. Nixon. You didn't see the real-estate man ?
Mr. Chambers. I don't think so. I don't think we saw anybody.
My recollection is we looked at the place and I liked it pretty well, and
we came back.
Mr. Nixon. That was after the Hisses had already made a deposit?
Mr. Chambers. I can't be sure. I just don't know that.
Mr. Nixon. Are you sure the real-estate man didn't go up there
with you ?
Mr. Chambers. I don't think he did.
Mr. Nixon. You don't recall ?
Mr. CHA3IBERS. I don't think so.
Mr. Nixon. You don't recall meeting Mr. Case at that time?
Mr. Chambers. No : I think I met Case — I don't think I knew
Case until I went up there to negotiate, myself, about the house.
Mr. Nixon. That is the first time jou recall meeting Case ?
Mr. Chambers. I think so.
Mr. MuxDT. Was it as a result of your recollection of the place
at the time you saw it with Alger Hiss that you first went to see Case
to purchase it, or did you see it again in the meantime?.
Mr. Chambers. Between the time I saw it with Hiss and went
myself ?
Mr. MuNDT. Yes.
Mr. Chambers. I don't think so.
Mr. ]\IuNDT. The house made such a good impression when you
went with Hiss that when you found he was going to let the deal go
you went to Case and told him about the particular house; or did you
just say, "Show me some houses?"
Mr. Chambers. My recollection is I went to Case and asked him to
show me what he had, and this was among the things he had.
Mr. Nixon. That was later?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
1260 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. Did you remember this was the house 3^011 had seen
with Mr. Hiss ?
Mr. Chambers. That is right. \
Mr. Nixon. There is no doubt in your mind on that?
Mr. Chambers. Not at all. It is different from any other house
around there. It stands differently, stands on a hill.
Mr. Nixon. Wlien you did go to Case, you don't recall asking for
this specific house?
Mr. Chambers. I don't think I did. He showed me a number of
houses that day and this was among the last.
Mr. Nixon. Did you buy it that clay ?
Mr. Chambers. 1 don't know whether I did or not. I think I left
a deposit that day, but I am not sure. I think so.
Mr. Mundt. When the deed was made out or some legal paper made
out in this connection, I notice it was signed by Mr. Whittaker, not by
Mr. Jay Whittaker.
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Mundt. Who is Jay ?
Mr. Chambers. My full name is Jay Whittaker Chambers.
Mr. Mundt. Do you sign legal papers that way ?
Mr. Chambers. At that time I signed erratically. Since then I
have practically lopped off the Jay in my dealings. It was one name
too much.
Mr. Nixon. Did Mr. Hiss know that you had bought this place?
Mr. Chambers. No; he did not.
Mr. NixoN. You never told him ?
Mr. Chambers. I never told him.
Mr. Nixon. Why didn't you tell him?
Mr. Chambers. Because I had it under my own name.
Mr. Nixon. Didn't you w^ant him to know you had bought it under
your own name ?
Mr. Chambers. No; I did not want him to know that.
Mr. Nixon. But when you bought this place 3^011 were still seeing
Mr. Hiss?
Mr. Chambers. I certainly was.
Mr. Nixon. You are quite sure of that ?
Mr. Chambers. Quite sure.
Mr. Nixon. And then you are sure that Mr. Hiss didn't know that
you had bought this under your own name?
Mr. CiiAiMBERS. No ; I don't think lie ever knew. I sometimes feared
he might have found out, particularly after I broke with the Com-
muuist Party, but I have no reason to believe he ever did.
Mr. Nixon. Did you move into that place before vou broke with the
Communist Party or after?
Mr. Chambers. I went there sometimes for a day before, but we
didu't live there for any length of time until after I broke with the
Communist Party.
Mr. Mundt. Would you recall what year it was you went up with
Hiss to look at the projjerty at the time'you went there together?
Mr. Chaimbers. I would think that it was 1936.
Mr. Mundt. Could it have been 1937?
Mr. Chambers. I suppose it could have been, but I don't think it
was.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1261
Mr. MuNDT. At the time you went up there, were you living in this
apartment down here, or had you been down to see Hiss on a visit, or
where was your home at that time. Where was Mrs. Chambers ?
Mr, Nixon. In other words, how long had you known Hiss at that
time?
Mr, Chambers. I would think I had known Hiss a year and a half,
and I would think that we were probably living in New York, my
family.
Mr. MuNDT. I got to thinking last night back about the days w^hen
the Hisses had this Ford automobile it w^as quite common for people
to give a nickname to a car, especially one where they had such an
attachment such as they had for this Ford. Do you recall if they ever
had a sort of nickname for the car, or did they refer to it as any par-
ticular thing, or did they say, "We will take our roadster," or "We
will take our Ford''? Do you recall anything?
Mr. Chambers. If he did, I don't recall. It is possible he did.
Mr. Stripling. While we are diverting from the main question
here, Mr. Chambers, I would like to know this : Mr. Hiss is a so-called
intellectual, and I presume that you are, too, and you both were in that
category at that time. When you were in his home, at his apartment
or his home, did you ever have discussions of theoretical aspects of
communism ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes : of course, we did.
Mr. Stripling. I know that you had some, but did you ever have pro-
longed or intense discussions on this ?
Mr. Chambers. I think if there had been more disagreement among
us, we might have had longer discussions.
Mr. Stripling. Did you discuss the theory of Marxism, et cetera,
with him?
Mr. Chambers. Surely.
Mr. Stripling. Dui'ing the time you were staying with him, seeing
him, et cetera ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr, Stripling. Did he have pronounced views on communism or
interpretations of Marxism, et cetera?
Mr. Chambers. He had no unusual interpretations. His view^s — he
understood Marxism very well, and had accepted it very completely.
There wasn't very great ground for theoretical discussion. In other
words, we talked more, I think, in the realm of current affairs, inter-
pretations of current affaires, in the light of communism.
Mr. Stripling. Did Mr. Hiss ever discuss with you his activities
or his career at Harvard when he was an outstanding student ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; I don't think he did. He used to talk about the
time when he was Justice Holmes' secretary.
Mr. Stripling. Do you remember anything he ever told you or said
to you about his relationship with Justice Holmes?
Mr. Chambers. No, I am sorry. He told me a number of pretty good
stories', but I can't remember good stories. He had several about the
Justice,
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever bring Mr. Hiss any particular volume
or Marxism or communism or any left-wing literature to read?
Mr. Chambers. No. Mr. Hiss was not supposed to have any such
books in his house.
1262 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. MuNDT. When you would make these periodical calls during
the last year or two you knew him — I think you w^ent to see him fort-
nightly— what would be the primary purpose that you had in mind
as you would go to see him at these meetings ?
Mr. Chambers. The problem, we had, the problem the Commmiist
Party had with this group of intellectuals, which is exactly what they
were, was keeping together and somehow keeping within the Com-
munist atmosphere a group of people who by their whole past environ-
mental influence were not Communists, they were middle-class people,
and my problem there w^as to bring the face of the party, in Com-
munist jargon, to them so they realized they were in touch with the
Communist Party, that it was well aware of them, it was personified
in one man and it was a moral problem as much as anything else.
Now, along with that there were discussions but they were, as I said,
simply on things like the Spanish civil war, or what the Hitler poli-
cies would be and what the Russian policies would be vis-a-vis Hitler's
policies, et cetera.
Mr. MuNDT. Did you ever discuss the Chinese policy with Hiss ?
Mr. Chambers. Well, I don't remember offhand, but very likely we
did.
Mr. Nixon. You definitely remember discussing the Spanish civil
war ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; which was very much in everybody's mind
then.
Mr. Nixon. When was the Spanish civil war ?
Mr. Chambers. As nearly as I can remember, it went on through
193G, 1937, 1938.
Mr. Mundt. Your assignment as a Communist functionary with
Hiss was to sort of make sure that these Communist ties were sustained
and that he was kept advised of the Communist program and the
Communist plans and the operations of this particular Communist
cell of which he was a member, more than to take him literature, and
you didn't make that trip primarily just to collect his dues ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; I did not. You see, these people were not only
in a difficult position with respect to the Communist Party because of
their past, but they were peculiarly isolated for organizational
purpose.
Mr. Mundt. Did you ever find out in your discussions with Pliss
when and where he first joined up with the Communists?
Mr. Cjiambers. If I did hear that, I have forgotten it. I recall, as
J think I told Mr. Nixon, or thought I recalled, that he and his wife
had met at Rand School in New York City. Rand School is a Socialist
institution, and I think it would be very worth while checking into
that. I doubt very much wliether the Rand School has a good con-
secutive record or not, but people would be able to remember the
teachers.
Mr. Stripling. Did they both go to the Rand School?
Mr. Chambers. I think so, and I think that is where they met, I
think they told me that.
Mr. Nixon. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Nixon. Then it isn't possible that after you took this place that
Hiss could have come and visited you there ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; I don't think so. It is utterly impossible.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1263
Mr. Xixox. That didn't happen ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; it didn't happen.
Mr. Nixon. Hiss never came to this farm after you got it?
Mr. Chambers. He never knew I had that place, to the best of my
knowledge,
Mr. Nixon. You didn't let him know ?
Mr. Chambers. I was very eager that he should not know.
Mr. Stripling. Why?
Mr. Chambers. It was in the name of Chambers.
Mr. Stripling. You and Mr. Hiss were good friends and you were
both interested in the same piece of property and you got the property
and 3'ou didn't want him to know you got it. Noav, I realize the
discipline there is in the Communist f^arty, but that just doesn't strike
clear to me.
Mr. Chambers. Really.
Mr. Stripling. Don't misunderstand me.
Mr. Chambers. Let me try to explain something briefly. I think
what disturbs and misleads most people about this whole case is the
whole question of conspiracy and its methods. Americans are not
conspiratorial by nature and tradition, and they cannot understand
how conspirators work.
Now, this whole set-up here was conspiratorial and that, I think, is
the answer to your question, Mr. Stripling. I had two compartments,
Whittaker Chambers on one side, which is my more or less private
compartment, and Carl in these groups here, and I did not want to
make anv bridge between them.
Mr. MuNDT. What was the reason for that ? Why did they want
that?
Mr. Chambers. Because I was here as an anonymous — not anon-
ymous but pseudonymous party functionary. That was an under-
ground movement. ' People were being kept as far apart as they
could, anyway, and where it was possible to conceal identities, identi-
ties were concealed with a pseudonym. That is it.
Mr. Nixon. Now, getting back to this piece of property, you think
the reason that the Hisses didn't take it was because Mrs. Hiss didn't
like it?
Mr. Chambers. I think that was a very strong reason.
]Mr. Ni?iON. Now, I will say that the record which appears in this
newspaper story, which you may or may not have read, indicates that
the reason the Hisses didn't take it was that the owner died and the
executor raised the price. Do you recall anything like that ?
]\lr. Chaznibers. I don't know if that is true. It is true the owner
died, Mrs. Shaw, but my recollection is she died after I paid my deposit.
Mr. Nixox. You think you paid your deposit?
Mr. CHA^iiBERS. I think I paid my deposit just before she died, and
it was her death which complicated my affairs with Mr. Case because
the transfer then involved a half dozen heirs, some of whom were far
aAvay from the scene.
Mr. Nixon. Well, the letters which are published here from Mr.
Hiss indicate that he was not taking the place because the price had
been raised, but you don't recall any conversation of that sort?
Mr. Chambers. I don't.
Mr. Nixon. You do recall for sure Mrs. Hiss didn't like the place?
Mr. Chambers. That I am certain of.
1264 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. How long- after you began to deal for the place did
that come into the conversation, do you recall i
Mr. Chambers. I can't remember exactly, but some time after she
had made a visit there.
Mr. Nixon. But you never made a visit there with her?
Mr. Chambers. I don't think so. I don't recall.
Mr. Nixon. Now, on the matter of the tools, j'ou think those were
your tools?
Mr. Chambers. I do.
Mr. Nixon. When did you first take tools to the place?
Mr. Chambers. I should think very shortly after I got it.
Mr. Nixon. You mean very shortly after you paid your deposit?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. Well, now, there must have been some other tools there
because this letter which was published here indicates — this letter
dated May 20, 1936, before you got the place — indicates that there
were some tools left on the place, but you don't recall any conversation
about tools ?
Mr. Chambers. No; I don't. It seems unlikely that Alger Hiss
ever took tools there.
Mr. Nixon. You never knew that he worked the place at all ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; 1 don't think he did.
Mr. Nixon. But you do knoAv he took some trips there?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. While you knew him?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. You know you went there once?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr, Nixon. And his wife did not like the place ?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. But you don't recall any conversation about the price
going up with Mr. Hiss ?
Mr. Chambers. I don't. It is not beyond possibility, but I don't
recall.
Mr. Nixon. Now, did you decide at the time you saw the place that
you wanted it right then when you saw the place ?
Mr. Chambers. No : I thought it was a very nice place.
Mr. Nixon. Had you made up your mind then you were going to
get the place?
Mr. Chambers. No ; he was still in the deal at that time.
Mr. Nixon. You didn't figure then you were going to get it?
Mr. Chambers. No ; I thought he was going to get it.
Mr. Nixon. It was only later ?
Mr. Chambers. Wlien he got out I decided to go in.
Mr. Nixon. But even then, as I understood your testimony, it
wasn't that you decided to go in for this place, biit that you saw the
real -estate man, he showed you several places including tliis one.
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. And you decided to take this one.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE- 1265
Mr. CiiA^iBERS. Yes. I knew about this one, but I was also inter-
ested in seeing what else he might have.
Mr. MuNDT. At the time you and the real-estate man saw this place
did you have any conversation with him at that time to the effect that,
"Isn't this the place Mr. Hiss had?" You didn't let the real-estate
man know you had been there before?
Mr. Chambers. No; I am sure of that.
Mr. MuNDT. You knew by that time that Hiss was out of the deal?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; I knew it.
Mr. MuNDT. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Wheeler. It is my understanding of the entire set-up of this
Communist organization that it was to infiltrate into the Government
to develop contacts within the Government; is that right?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. Wheeler. Now, in your connections or associations with Mr.
Hiss did you ever discuss likely prospects to bring within this cell?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; we did, and the one whom Mr. Hiss believed
to be the most likely was a man named Noel Field. Mr. Field was
in what was then the West European Division of the State Depart-
ment. I don't know what his position was, but he may have been
head of the Division. Hiss believed that Field was already very
strongly pro-Communist.
Now, how he knew that I have forgotten, but I presume by conver-
sation. He made a number of attempts to draw Field in and only to
discover at the show-down tliat Field was connected with another
apparatus.
Mr. Nixox. You mean Field was already a Communist?
Mr. Chambers. Field was already a Communist working in an-
other apparatus.
Mr. MuNDT. Do you recall any cases of that kind where he may
have tried to draw them in and they wouldn't come in ?
Mr. Chambers. May I continue first with Field?
Mr. MuNDT. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Was Field from Boston ?
Mr. Chambers. I don't know. My recollection is that he came
from a wealthy family, that he was the only son of a widow.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know if he is a Unitarian or not?
Mr. Chambers. I don't know. I think this should be off the record.
Mr. MuNDT. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Chambers. Then shortly after that Noel Field had an offer
from the International Labor Office of the League of Nations, and he
took that and went to work in Geneva in the League of Nations.
The next thing I saw was an item in the newspapers somewhere
that he was serving on tlie League of Nations committee to repatriate
tlie soldiers from the republican side of the Spanish Civil War, and
it seems in Gen. Walter Krivitsky's articles in the Saturday Evening
Post, it seemed he said Noel Field was working for him.
80408— is 49
1266 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. MuNDT Do 370U know where he is now ?
Mr. Chambers. You asked me if he was a Unitarian. I think Ray
Murphy told me he was head of the Unitarian Relief.
Mr, MuNDT. Now, back to my other question. If you can recall
some instances of people that Hiss tried to bring into the cell, people
who refused to join — do you know anybody like that?
Mr. Chambers. It didn't get that far, but he attempted — he had
various people in for an evening or so whom he thought were likely
prospects. Offhand I think of just one name, and I question whether
or not you want to put that on the record.
Mr. MuNDT. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. MuNUT. The committee will adjourn.
(Whereupon, at 7: 30 p. m., the committee adjourned.)
HEARINGS REGAKDINCt COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
MONDAY, AUGUST 30, 1948
United States House of Kepresentatives,
Special Subcommittee or the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
New York, N. Y.
The siibconimittee met. pursuant to call, at 1 : 35 p. in. in room 108,
Federal Courthouse, New York City, Hon. John McDowell presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives John McDowell (pre-
siding) and llichard M. Nixon.
Staff members present : Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator, and
Louis J. Russell, investigator.
Mr. McDowell. The committee will be in order.
The Chair will state for the record that this is a subcommittee of the
Committee on I"n-American Activities appointed August 26 by the
chairman of the full committee, the Honorable J. Parnell Thomas, to
further the investigation into espionage in the United States Govern-
ment.
For the benefit of the witness and the counsel of the witness, the
Chair will identify those here as being Investigator Louis Russell over
here: Chief Investigator Robert Stri])ling: the gentleman from Cali-
fornia, Conm-essman Nixon ; and the Chairman, John McDowell.
Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling, The first witness, Mr. Chairman, will be Mr. Stevens,
Alexander Stevens.
Mr. Stevens, will you stand and be sworn, please?
Mr. McDowell. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you shall
give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Stevens. I do.
Mr. jSIcDowell. Mr. Stripling.
TESTIMONY OF ALEXANDER STEVENS, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, CAROL KING
Mr. Stripling. Will you please state your full name and your pres-
ent address for the record.
Mr. Stevens. Alexander Stevens, 8346 One Hundred and Eighteentli
Street, Kew Gardens. Long Island,
Mr. Stripling, Where were you born, Mr. Stevens?
Mr. Stevens. Cop, formerly Hungary.
Mr. McDowell. I must insist again that you keep exact order here.
This is an important matter and we are working against time.
1267
1268 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Striplixg. Will you please spell the place that you were born ?
Mr. Stevens. C-o-p, spelled that way by the Czechs today.
Mr. Stripling. Is that Austria ? Is that in Austria today ?
Mr. Stevens. No. It was Czechoslovakia. It was Hungary orig-
inally and became Czech after the First World War.
Mr. Stripling. When did you first enter the United States ?
Mr. Ste\^ns. 1924.
Mr. Stripling. At what port of entry ?
Mr. Stevens. New York.
Mr. Strepling. New York. Are you a citizen of the United States?
Mr. Stevens. No.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever applied for citizenship ?
Mr. Stevens. I did.
Mr. Stripling. "Wlien?
Mr. Stevens. I don't remember the exact date. Five, six years or so
after I arrived here.
Mr. Stripling. What is the status of your papers at the present
time ?
Mr. Stevens. I never get a satisfactory answer for my application.
I think I applied once or twice after that.
Mr. Stripling. Are you here in response to the subpena which was
served upon you this date by Stephen W. Birmingham, calling for your
appearance here in the Federal Building at 1 p. m. ?
Mr. Ste\i:ns. Correct.
Mr. Stripling. You are here in response to that subpena ?
Mr. Stevens. I am.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Stevens, are you a member of the Communist
Party?
Mr. Stevens. I decline to answer that question under the first and
fifth amendment to the Constitution on the ground that my answer
might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever held any positions in the Communist
Party of the United States ?
Mr. Stevens. I decline to answer that question under the first and
fifth amendment to the Constitution on the ground that my answer
might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever been known under the name of
J.Peters?
Mr. Ste\"ens. I decline to answer that question under the first
amendment and fifth amendment of the Constitution on the ground
that my answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever serve in the United States as the repre-
sentative of the Communist International of the Communist Party?
Mr. Stevens. I decline to answer that question under the fifth
amendment and first amendment to the Constitution on the ground
that my answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I have here a photostatic copy of a
document which reads as follows; dated March 17, 1932, headed
"Andrew Smith" :
Dear Comrade : This is to inform you tliat you have been granted a transfer
by the central committee of the Communist Party of the United States of America
to the CPSU—
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1269
Communist Party of the Soviet Union—
your transfer has been referred to the central committee of the Communist Party
of the Soviet Union.
Fraternally, , „
J. Peters,
Acting Representative, Gommtmist Party of the V. 8. A., EC CI— Executive
Committee of the Communist International.
Now T sliow you this signature, Mr. Stevens, and ask you if you wrote
"J. Peters" on this document.
Mr. Stevens. I decline to answer that question under the fifth
amendment to the Constitution on the ground that my answer might
tend to incriminate me or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. You refuse to answer whether or not you ever acted
as a representative of the Communist International?
Mr. Stevens. I decline to answer that question on the ground that it
will incriminate me under the fifth amendment to the Constitution.
Mr. Stripling. I have here another document, Mr. Chairman, a
photostatic copy dated March 7, 1932, which reads as follows:
Dear Comrade : Comrade Andrew Smith has been a member of the Communist
Party of the U. S. A. since 1922 and was transferred to the Soviet Union with a
very high recommendation from the party. Comrade Smith, before receiving his
transfer, gave all of his savings to the party. Comrade Smith is an expert
machinist and we recommend that he should be given all possible assistance so
that he could give all his abilities to socialistic construction.
Comradely yours,
J. Peters,
Acting Representative, the Communist Party of the V. 8. A., Executive
Committee of the Communist International.
Is this your signature, the name of J. Peters, Mr, Stevens ?
Mr. Stephens. I decline to answer that question under the fifth
amendment of the Constitution on the ground that it might tend to
incriminate me or degrade me.
Mr. McDo■\^^:LL. Well, now, examine the signature. Look at it.
Mr. Stevens. I did look.
Mr. Stripling. He has examined the signature.
Will you state that that is not your signature?
Mr. Ste\t:ns. I decline to answer that question under the fifth
amendment of tlie Constitution.
Mr. Nixon. What you mean by that answer, Mr. Stevens, is that if
you ansAvered "Yes" it would tend to incriminate you, isn't it?
Let the record show that the witness is consulting with counsel.
Mr. Stei'ens. I stand on the answer verbatim as I said before because
is might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Nixon In other words, the answer "Yes" might tend to incrim-
inate you ?
Mr. Ste-vens. Any answer would.
Mr. Nixon. You mean if you answered "No" that you hadn't been
the representative of the Comintern, that that could incriminate you
too?
Mr. Stripling. Wliat is your answer, Mr. Peters?
Mr. Stevens. I will repeat the same answer ; that I decline to answer
the question on the basis of the fifth amendment to the Constitution.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever travel on a passport to the Soviet
Union under the name of Isidore Boorstein?
1270 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. ScEVENS. I decline to ansAver that question under the fifth
amendment of the Constitution. It might tend to incriminate me.
Mr, Stripling. Have you ever been known by any other name other
tlian Alexander Stevens ?
Mr. Stevens. I decline to answer that question under the fifth
amendment of the Constitution because it might tend to incriminate
me.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Stevens, you mean by that, the answer to that ques-
tion, by disclosing the other names you have gone under, that there
might be a record under one of those other names, a criminal record?
Mr. Stevens. I stand on my answer as I said before.
Mr. Nixon. I see no reason why by disclosing what other names you
have gone under you could possibly incriminate yourself, unless that
were the case. You see the implication which you are leaving in the
record. Do you wish it to be there ; in other words, that there might
be a criminal record under one of your other names ?
Mr. Stevens. I stand on my answer.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, without burdening the record at
this point, the committee has established through its own investiga-
tion that the person known as J. Peters is the witness who has identi-
fied himself as Alexander Stevens. We have a record over a long
period of time showing him to be a Communist Party organizer, con-
tributed to various Communist publications over a long period of time.
Unless the Chair desires, we will not continue to identify him with
the Communist Party. A complete memorandum of his connections,
known connections with the Communist Party, can be placed in the
record at this point, if that is agreeable.
Mr. McDowell. It is so ordered.
(The documents referred to appear on pp. 620-622.)
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Stevens, the charge has been made before the
committee by Whittaker Chambers that you directed an underground
apparatus which operated in the Federal Government beginning in
1934. Did you ever participate or direct the operation of any appa-
ratus which was under the control of the Communist Party for the
purpose of infiltrating the Federal Government?
Mr. Stevens. I decline to answer that question under the first and
fifth amendments to the Constitution on the ground that my answer
might tend to incriminate or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Whittaker Chambers?
Mr. Stevens. I decline to answer that question under the fifth
amendment of the Constitution on the ground that my answer might
degrade and incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Will you stand up, please?
Mr. Stevens, this individual is Whittaker Chambers. Have you
ever seen this individual before in your life?
Mr. Stevens. I decline to answer.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know him under the name of Whittaker
Chambers in 1934 ?
Mr. Stevens. I decline to answer that question on the ground that
it would incriminate me under the fifth amendment of the Consti-
tution.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know him in 1935 ?
Mr. Stevens. I decline to answer that question under the fifth
amendment of the Constitution as it may incriminate me.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1271
Mr. Stripling. Did you know him under any other name ?
Mr. Stevens. I decline to answer that question on the ground of
the fifth amendment of the Constitution. It might tend to incrimi-
nate me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you Imow him under the name of Carl ?
Mr. Stevens. I decline to answer the question on the fifth amend-
ment of the Constitution. My answer might tend to incriminate or
degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever see this person in the presence of Alger
Hiss in Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Stevens. I decline to answer that question under the fifth
amendment of the Constitution because it might tend to incriminate
me or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet this individual in the apartment
of Henry Collins at St. Matthews Court in Washington, D. C., at any
time during the period 1934 to 1938 ?
Mr. Stevens. I decline to answer that question under the fifth
amendment of the Constitution on the ground that it might tend to
incriminate me or degrade me.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I ask that Mr. Chambers be sworn.
Continue to stand, please.
Mv. McDowell. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you shall
give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help 3^011 God?
Mr. Chambers. I do.
TESTIMONY OF WHITTAKER* CHAMBERS
Mr, McDowell. I am going to insist on order or we are going to
have to stop all the picture making. We must get on with this
hearing. The committee must hear the responses of both of these
witnesses. I insist that you cooperate.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chambers, the witness occupying the witness
stand has identified himself as Alexander Stevens. Have you ever
seen this individual before ?
Mr. Chambers. I have.
Mr. Stripling. When did you first see him?
Mr. Chambers. About 1928,
Mr, Stripling. Where did you see him in 1928 ?
Mr. Chambers. In the Daily Worker office building in New York
City.
iVIr. Stripling. In New York City. Is he the individual who went
under the name of J. Peters and with whom you worked in the Com-
munist apparatus in Washington, D. C?
Mr. Chambers. He is.
Mr. Stripling. He is that person. There is no question in your
mind ?
Mr. Chambers. Not the least.
Mr. Stripling. Have a seat, Mr, Chambers. Sit down, sir,
TESTIMONY OF ALEXANDER STEVENS— Resumed
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Stevens, do you know an individual by the
name of Alger Hiss ?
1272 " COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stevens. I decline to answer that question under the fifth
amendment to the Constitution on the ground that my answer might
tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, in order to expedite the hearing,
if it is agreeable with counsel, I am going to ask this witness if he
knows of 20 or 30 individuals, and if the same answer is agreeable
with counsel, will it be agreeable with the committee, to avoid the
repetition?
Mr. McDo^\^LL. That we assume that his refusal to answer is on
the grounds that it may tend to incriminate him ?
Mr. Stripling. Under the fifth amendment. Is that correct?
Mr. McDowell. Is that agreeable to counsel ?
Miss King. It is agreeable.
Mr. Stripling. If special reasons arise, you may add them, but if
not, you are claiming only this particular ground and so state.
Mr. McDowell. Proceed. I want you to pay particular attention
to the names he mentions to be sure you know what your answer is
going to be. Proceed.
Mr. Stripling. Donald Hiss.
Mr, Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. Stripling. Henry Collins.
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. Stripling. John Abt.
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. Stripling. Lee Pressman.
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. Stripling. Victor Perlo.
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Hr. Stripling. Abraham George Silverman.
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. Stripling. Mrs. Alger Hiss.
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever know an individual by the name of
Harold Ware?
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I am going to ask Mr, Russell to
read the list,
Mr. Russell. Nathan Gregory Silvermaster.
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. Russell. Solomon Adler.
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. Russell. Norman Bursler.
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. Russell. Frank Coe.
Mr. Stevens, Same answer,
Mr. Russell. Lauchlin Currie,
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. Russell. Bel a Gold.
Mr. Stevens. Same answer,
Mr, Russell. Sonia Gold,
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. Russell. William Gold.
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. Russell. Abraham George Silverman.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
1273
Mr
Mi-
Mr
Mr
Mr
Mr.
Mr.
Mr.
Mr.
Mr.
Mr.
Mr.
Mr.
Mr.
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. Russell. William Taylor.
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. Russell. William Liiclwig Ullmann.
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Victor Perlo.
Same answer.
Edward J. Fitzgerald.
Same answer.
Harold Glasser.
Same answer.
Charles Kramer.
Same answer.
Charles Krevitsky.
Same answer.
Solomon Lischinsky.
Same answer.
Harry Magdoff.
Same answer.
Allan Rosenberg.
Same answer.
Donald Niven Wheeler.
Same answer.
Michael Greenberg.
Same answer.
Joseph Gregg.
Same answer.
Maurice Halperin.
Same answer.
J. Jnliiis Joseph.
Same answer.
Duncan Chaplin Lee.
Same answer.
Robert T. Miller.
Same answer.
Willard or William Z. Park.
Same answer.
Bernard Redmont.
Sarae answer.
Helen Tenney.
Same answer.
William Walter Remington.
Same answer.
Mr. Stripling. Nathan Witt.
Russell.
Stevens.
Russell.
Ste\'ens.
Russell.
Mr. STE^^ENS.
Mr. Russell.
Stevens.
Russell.
Stevens.
Russell.
Stevens.
Russell.
Stevens.
Russell.
Stevens.
Mr. Russell.
Mr. Stevens.
Mr. Russell.
Mr. Stevens.
Mr. Russell.
Ste\^ns.
Russell.
Stevens.
Mr. Russell.
Mr. Stevens.
Mr. Russell.
Stevens.
Russell.
Stevens.
Russell.
Ste\tens.
Russell.
Stevens.
Russell.
Stevens.
Russell.
Ste\^ns.
Mr
Mr
Mr
Mr.
Mr.
Mr.
Mr.
Mr.
Mr.
Mr.
Mr.
Mr.
Mr.
Mr.
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. Striplincx. Do you know a man by the name of Joe Cherner?
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Earl Browder?
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. NixON. Mr. Chairman, the witness can claim the ground of self-
incrimination where that ground is plead in good faith, but I suggest
that the witness be affain asked whether or not be knows Earl Browder.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Stevens, do you know Earl Browder ?
Mr. Stevens. I know him.
1274 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. McDowell. You know him ?
Mr. Stripling. You do know Earl Browder ?
Mr. McDowell. He said so. Do you know George Wuclnnich?
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. McDowell. I will spell it for you. W-u-c-h-i-n-i-c-h.
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. Russell. Alexander Koral ?
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Stevens, have you ever been to Washington,
D. C?
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. McDowell. You refuse to answer whether you have been to
Washington, D. C, because it may tend to incriminate you — the Capi-
tal of the United States ?
Counsel has had much experiencie in congressional hearings. I must
warn counsel that her advice to him must be on constitutional grounds.
Miss King. I understand that, and I do not purport to answer for
my client.
"Mr. McDowell. Have you ever been to Washington, D. C?
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chairman, I have a suggestion for procedure now.
I think that the photographers have been here for some time. They
have been able to get their shots and now it is disturbing the hearing.
I think we should clear the room and proceed with the hearing.
Mr. McDo^\^5LL. You will have five more minutes.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the witness this :
Have you ever been in the Pennsylvania Railroad station in New
York?
Mr. Stevens. I was.
Mr. Stripling. You have been in the Pennsylvania Railroad station
in New York ?
Mr. Stevens. Sure.
Mr. Stripling. Have you eA^er been in Union Station in Washing-
ton, D.C.?
Mr. Stevens. Same answer — not as before.
Mr. Stripling. You decline to answer whether you have been in
Mr. Stevens. That's right.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever been at the home of Nathan Gregory
Silvermaster, Washington, D. C, at 3015 Fifteenth Street?
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know Jacob N. Golos?
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know Elizabeth Bentley ?
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I see no reason why this witness
could not be more responsive to questions of which he has knowledge
and for which he cannot be prosecuted, no matter if he did implicate
liimself before this committee. He cannot be prosecuted for testifying
before a committee of Congress. I have evidence, Mr. Stevens, that
you know these people, certain of these people ; that you have been in
their homes, and you are declining to answer on the ground that you
might incriminate yourself. Your counsel, I am sure, can advise you
that you cannot be prosecuted for what you say before a committee of
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1275
Congress. I therefore insist, Mr. Chairman, that he be more respon-
sive to the questions.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Stevens, when did you say you came to the
United States?
Mr. Stevens. 1924.
Mr. McDowell. 1924. For 24 years you have been the guest of the
people of the United States.
Mr. Striplikg. Not all the time, Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDowell. The evidence that lie is discussing there now indi-
cates that there were times when you left the United States for another
country. You are now facing the Congress of the United States. In
our hands lies the safety and the security of this Nation and its people
and its Constitution. In your hands and in your head lies the decision
of whether you are going to cooperate with the Congi*ess of the United
States.
Now, the Chair is going to ask you to be more cooperative.
The photograj)liers have one more minute in which to operate.
Mr. Streplixg. Have you completed your statement, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. McDowell. I have completed it, and before we go any further
I ask now that the photographers retire. We are in a hurry here. We
must get through.
The committee will be in order now. There will be no conversation
and no noise. The Chair insists that you be in order.
Mr. Stripling, proceed.
JNIr, Nixox. Mr. Chairman.
■ Mr. McDowell. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixox. Mr. Chairman, as the Chair has indicated, this com-
mittee has been sitting for some time now investigating espionage
activities in the United States, and every time we have had a member
of the Communist Party before this committee we have received abso-
lutely no cooperation whatever, and it seems to me quite interesting
that when those people have appeared before the committee they have
used the Constitution of the United States, generally the tifth amend-
ment, the ground of self-incrimination, as a shield for their failure to
give the Congi-ess the information to which the Congress is entitled.
We are not asking for this information because we are interested
in it for our own purposes, but we are asking for this information
because it is our duty to investigate these alleged espionage activities
which took place during'^the war, and which are going on at the present
time in this Government.
Now, the committee has been very patient with the witnesses in these
hearings, as the Chair has often remarked. We have been patient with
members of the Communist Party when they have come before the
committee and have insolently refused to answer questions on the
ground of self-incrimination, refused to indicate what people they
know, refused to answer questions concerning matters which could not
possibly incriminate them because they would be outlawed by the stat-
ute of limitations years and years ago.
Now this man here, who is the witness today, is one of the key wit-
nesses in this entire situation. If this man were to give the informa-
tion to the committed' which he could, we would be able to answer some
of the questions which we have before us.
Now, the ground of self-incrimination has been plead by this man.
He is a guest of the country. He isn't even a citizen of this country.
1276 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
For the past 24 years he has been in this country, and from the answers
he has given it is quite apparent that he has been working to overthrow
the very Government that has been working to protect him, and, as far
as I am concerned, I am indicating to the Chair now that that I will
move, when this witness leaves the stand, that we recommend to the
full committee that he be cited for contempt for refusing to answer
these questions on the ground of self-incrimination.
Mr. McDowell. The gentleman from California's point is very well
taken. Much time and much money, much effort, has been expended
on these matters, and will be expended on these matters in the future.
I would like to say to the Communists of America, those present and
those not present, that for the first time in the history of the Govern-
ment of the United States that Government is going to fairly and
squarely face the Communist Party in the United States, as we don't
believe it is a political party at all. We believe it is an international
political conspiracy, and Mr. Stevens, you might take that word back
to the Communists that from now on the people of the United States
are going to protect their own.
Mr. Stripling, have you anything further ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes ; I have several more questions.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Stevens, I would like to ask you this question:
Although you are not a citizen of the United States, you certainly are
interested in doing everything you can to protect the security of the
country, are you not ?
Mr. Ste\t3NS. Sure.
Mr. Nixon. You are. You, for example, do not believe that it is
in the interests of the country that confidential information from
Government files be furnished to representatives of other governments
in an unauthorized way, do you ? I am asking you the question.
Mr. Stevens. I am not interested.
Mr. Nixon. You are not interested.
Mr. McDowell. I didn't hear you.
Mr. Stevens. I am not interested to get those materials in a way
you describe.
Mr. Nixon. Well, now, then I think we are getting some place. I
will ask you the question now : Have you ever furnished any confiden-
tial Government information to representatives of the Communist
Party in the United States or representatives of the Russian Govern-
ment ?
Mr. McDowell. Before the witness answers, may I refresh w^hat
I think he probably already knows — that the crime of perjury in the
United States is a very serious crime. Perjury means telling a lie
under oath.
Will you respond to the question now ?
Mr. Stevens. I have to repeat the same answer — that I decline to
answer the question on the ground that it will incriminate me — the
fifth amendment of the Constitution.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Stevens, do you know an individual by the name
of William Rosen in Washington, D. C?
Mr. Stevens. Same answer.
Mr. Stripling. ISIr. Chairman, I see no purpose being served by
continuing to question this witness, but I do ask that he be instructed
that he is to remain under the authority of the subpena, and we Avill
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1277
call him very soon to confront certain evidence which the committee
has.
I have one more question. Did you ever confer with Whittaker
Chambers or Alger Hiss regarding the transfer or sale of a 1929 Ford
roadster in the year 1936 ?
Mr. Stevexs. The same answer.
Mr. Stripling. That's all. •
Mr. McDo^\t:ll. The same answer applies to both Mr. Chambers or
Carl or Z^Ir. Alger Hiss ?
Mr. Stevens. Yes.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. And to the car. Have you ever assisted in the sale of a
1929 Ford car, Mr. Stevens?
Mr. STE^^NS. Same answer.
Mr. Nixon. Do you own an automobile now ?
Mr. Ste\^ns. I do.
Mr. Nixon. What kind of a car do you have?
Mr. Stephens. A Chrysler.
Mr. Nixon. You don't mind telling us about that. That wouldn't
incriminate you.
Mr. Stemsns. I already told you.
Mr. Nixon. Why won't you tell us about that car ? How could the
Chrysler incriminate you less than the Ford? It is a more expensive
car. Now I ask you again, will you tell the committee about that
transaction on tliis 1029 Ford? Have 3'ou ever assisted in the sale of
a 1929 Ford, a transfer of a 1929 Ford to one William Kosen?
Mr. Steat:ns. Same answer.
Mr. NixoN. That's all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Stripling. That's all, Mr. Chairman. Instruct him to remaiii
under the subpena and to keep us advised through counsel where he
can be reached. We have been trying for a year to reach Mr. Stevens.
Miss King. If the committee had inquired of me, I should have been
glad to tell the committee where he could be reached.
Mr. Stripling. We didn't know you were his counsel. Miss King.
Miss King. It has been a matter of public record for the whole year.
Mr. Stripling. Will you produce him when we ask for him ?
Miss King. Within reasonable notice.
Mr. Stripling. What do you consider reasonable notice?
Miss King. I would say within a few days.
Mr. jSIcDowell. We will be very sure to do that, but now I want
to instruct the witness and his counsel that the subpena issued on him,
for him and to him this morning, is extended until further notice and
that when we require his presence either in Washington or eleswhere,
we will get in touch with counsel as she suggests. The witness is
excused.
Mr. Stripling, call the next witness.
Mr. Stripling. ]\Ir, Whittaker Chambers.
Mr. McDow-EtL. Mr. Stripling, the witness has already been sworn.
Mr. Stripling. I suggest you swear him again, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. McDo^vell. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall
give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and"^ nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Chambers. I do.
1278 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
TESTIMONY OF WHITTAKER CHAMBERS— Resumed
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chambers, you have appeared before the com-
mittee previously ; have you not ?
Mr. Chambers. I have,
Mr. Stripling. He has been sufficiently identified in the record, Mr.
Chairman. I think we should proceed with the questioning.
Mr. Chambers has been under subpena of the committee for some
several weeks now. I don't recall the exact date of the original sub-
pena. There are certain matters regarding Mr. Peters which the com-
mittee would like to clear up, and Mr. Nixon will conduct the question-
ing on those particular matters.
Mr. McDowell. The gentleman from California.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chambers, do you know the man Alexander Stevens
who was just on the witness stand ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; I do.
Mr. Nixon. When did you first meet him ?
Mr. Chambers. I believe during the year 1928; possibly a little
before that.
Mr. Nixon. What was your occupation at that time?
Mr. Chambers. I was at that time working on the Daily Worker,
New York City.
Mr. Nixon. Were you a member of the Communist Party at that
time?
Mr. Chambers. I was.
• Mr. Nixon. What was Mr. Peters' occupation at that time?
Mr. Chambers. Mr. Peters was connected with a Hungarian Com-
munist newspaper, the Uj Elore.
Mr. Nixon. To your knowledge was Mr. Peters a member of the
Communist Party at that time ?
Mr. Chambers. He was.
Mr. Nixon. Did you know it from any other fact than that ho
worked on this newspaper ?
Mr. Chambers. It was commonly understood that he was.
Mr. Nixon. He was accepted in Communist Party ranks as a mem-
ber of the party ?
Mr. Chambers. Certainly.
Mr. Nixon. Now you knew him how long during that period —
from 1928 to what date?
Mr. Chambers. Until 1929 ; sometime in 1929.
Mr. Nixon. I see. Now when did you again meet Mr. Peters, and
in what connection ?
Mr, Chambers. I met him either at the end of 1932 or during the
year 1933 in the underground of the American Communist Party.
Mr. Nixon. Now will you describe to the committee when you first
went into the underground and how you happened to meet Mr. Peters
after you had gone in.
Mr. Chambers, While I was editing New Masses, I received a
telephone call from Mr, Max Bedacht, who was at that time I believe
a member of the central committee of the Communist Party. Mr.
Bedacht was also head of the lAVO, the International Workers Order.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Bedacht, will you spell that name ?
Mr. Chambers. B-e-d-a-c-h-t.
Mr. Stripling. Will you speak a little louder, Mr, Chambers ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1279
Mr. Chambers. I will try.
Mr. NjxoN. Now, Mr. Bedaclit was your immediate superior then?
Mr. CiiAMBEKS. No. I don't believe I had ever seen Mr. Bedacht
before, but I was aware of him by representation.
Mr. Nixon. I see. Then you later met Mr. Peters or Alexander
Stevens ?
Mr. Chambers. That is true.
Mr. Nixon. In what connection did you meet him ?
Mr. Chambers. Mr. Bedacht went away on a vacation or a trip or
used this as a pretext to turn me over to Mr. Peters and my superior in
the underground.
Mr. Nixon. Where did this meeting with Mr. Peters take place ?
Mr. Chambers. I believe it took place in an automat. Where, I
am not quite sure.
Mr. Nixon. You didn't meet him in Communist Party headquarters?
Mr. Chambers. No ; I did not.
Mr. NixoN. Did you ever meet Peters in Communist Party head-
quarters while he was in the underground ?
Mr. Chambers. I never did at no time.
Mr. NixoN. What was the reason for that ?
Mr. Chambers. The reason is that Mr. Peters was supposed to avoid
the open Communist Party and so was I.
Mr. Nixon. You both were to avoid it. Now, when you met Mr.
Peters, what capacity would you say he occupied in the underground ?
Mr. Chambers. It was my understanding that Mr. Peters was the
head of the whole underground of the American Communist Party
whose activities included the entire country.
Mr. Nixon. And you know of your own knowledge at least that he
was your immediate superior ?
Mr. Chambers. He was.
Mr. Nixon. Do you know of your own knowledge whether he had
other people at the same level that you were in the underground ?
Mr. Chambers. It is my belief that he had many such people. I
could name one, in fact, Harold Ware.
Mr. NixoN. Harold Ware?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. In the same capacity that you were ?
Mr. Chambers. In the same general capacity.
Mr. Nixon. I see. Did you ever have any dealings with Mr. Peters
in Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; I did.
Mr. Nixon. Will you describe to the committee chronologically, as
well as you can recollect, what those dealings were?
Mr. Chambers. Sometime in 19o4, I believe, Mr. Peters introduced
me to Mr. Harold Ware. Do you want me to identify Ware again?
Mr. Nixon. If you will, please.
Mr. Chambers. Harold Ware was one of the sons of Ella Reeve
Bloor, who is a member of the Communist Party and still active, I
believe, and his interest was primarily in the field of agriculture. He
had gone to Washington, I believe, for the purpose of seeing what
kind of Communist penetration he could carry on in the agricultural
field.
When he got there he discovered that the possibilities for organizing
the Communist underground transcended the agricultural field, and
1280 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
either he or he and Peters then organized an apparatus, at least one
apparatus of which I have knowledge, possibly others, which I can
describe more in detail, if you wisli.
Mr. Nixon. Well, now, you have already described that for the
record, but will you tell the committee whether Mr. Peters actively
worked with you, with the Washington representatives of this under-
ground movement? I mean, was he ever in Washington at the same
time that you were?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; Mr. Peters was in Washington when I was, on
many occasions.
Mr. Nixon. Did Mr. Peters introduce you to any of the members
of this underground?
Mr. Chambers. Mr. Peters eventually, I think, intix)duced me to
al] the members of the committee, either individually or as a group.
Mr. Nixon. Individually and as a group both. Is that your testi-
mony ? Do you know whether or not Mr. Peters knew Mr. Alger Hiss ?
Mr. Chambers. Mr. Peters not only knew Mr. Alger Hiss but to the
best of — I hate to use this phrase, to the best of my recollection he
introduced me himself to Mr, Hiss, I think in the presence of Harold
Ware.
Mr. Nixon. Have you ever seen Mr. Peters in the presence of Mr.
Hiss? Can you say that ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; definitely.
Mr. Nixon. You can say that Avithout qualifying to the best of your
recollection ?
Mr. Chambers. Without any qualification.
Mr. Nixon. Now by what name was Peters known in Washington
to this group ?
Mr. Chambers. Peter.
Mr. Nixon. The name "Peter"?
Mr. Chambers. Yes. I suppose it's sometimes Peters.
Mr. Nixon. And did I understand you to say in previous testimony
that it was Peters who arranged the transfer of a 1929 Ford automo-
bile which Mr. Hiss owned ?
Mr. Chambers. That is true.
Mr. Nixon. You know that by reason of what fact?
Mr. Chambers. I know that from Peters.
Mr. Nixon. From Peters and from who else ?
Mr. Chambers. Perhaps Mr. Hiss. I am reasonably sure that Mr.
Hiss told me. I don't want to say absolutely, but I am reasonably sure.
Mr. Nixon. Now, how long did you know Mr. Peters during this
period?
Mr. Chambers. From about 1932 or '33 until 1938.
Mr. Nixon. Did you travel to and from New York and Washington
with him on any occasion?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; I did. Both by train and by car.
Mr. Nixon. With Mr. Peters?
Mr. Chambers. Yes, sir. The car might make an interesting aside.
Mr. Nixon. The what?
Mr. Chambers. The car might make an interestinor aside.
Mr. Nixon. Yes?
]\Ir. Chambers. There was at that time working in the Bureau of
Indian AfTairs a Himgarian girl Communist who was living either as
the wife or otherwise of Roy Hudson, a member of the Politburo, I
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1281
believe, a maritime organizer of some kind, and it was in her car that
we traveled down there together. What year that would be I am not
quite certain, but I should think it might be 1936 or something like that.
Mr. Nixon. Was it just you and Mr. Peters alone in the car?
JNIr. Chambers. No. The girl was driving. I don't remember her
name.
Mr. Nixon. She drove the car?
Mr. Cha:\ibers. I believe she was assistant to Mr. Collier.
Mr. McDowell. May I suggest something here? Mr. Hudson, Roy
Hudson, was at one time, I believe, the labor chief of the Communist
Party, or a title that would correspond to that. He was a Communist
expert on labor aifairs.
Ml.. Chambers. That is possible. I don't know.
Mr. McDowell. And up until the last 2 or 3 weeks I believe he was
in chai-ge of Communist affairs in eastern Ohio, western Pennsylvania,
and northern and western Virginia. I know that.
Mr. Chambers. I haven't followed his career.
]\Ir. McDowell. He was very recently moved ; I believe brought
back here to New York.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Chambers, ^-ou have testified that Mr. Peters was
your innuediate superior in the underground and to the best of your
knowledge was the head of the entire underground movement in the
United States. Can you tell the committee whether or not Mr. Peters
was, during the time that you knew him, in contact with any agents
of the Russian Government or the Russian Communist Party?
Mr. Chambers. It is my impression that he was in a number of
cases in which I do not know the details, and I can specify certain
others.
Mr. Nixon. Tliis impression was gathered from what Peters told
you ?
Mr. Chambers. In part, and in part from introductions which he
made.
Mr. Nixon. In part from introductions?
Mr. Chambers. In other words, he introduced me to some of these
people whom I will now describe, if you wish.
Mr. Nixon. I see. Well, now, can you tell the committee any specific
example of Mr. Peters' contact with agents of the Russian" Govern-
ment or the Russian Communist Party ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes. Mr. Peters around 1937, I believe, introduced
me to a man under the name of Ewald, which I presume is E-v-o-r or
E-w-a-1-d. It is a fairly common European name. Mister, or just
Ewald, seemed to be a Russian, but I understood from Peters that he
was a Lat, from Latvia. This Ewald later became internationally
famous as the result of his disappearance.
Shall I go into this whole story to the best of my knowledge ?
Mr. NixoN. Yes ; if you will, at this time. Let me say for the record
that we wish to establish — since we liave no documentary evidence —
by your own testimony how well you knew Peters and how much you
knew about his activities.
Mr. Chambers. Well, we have two lines of testimony here, haven't
we?
Mr. Nixon. Yes ; that is correct.
Mr. Chambers. "\Yliich shall I proceed along first ?
80408—48 50
1282 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixox. Well, the line that you were proceeding on.
Mr. Chambers. All right. About 1937, I believe, two Americans
traveling to Europe uiider the name of Robinson dropped out of sight
in Italy. They were then, I believe, traced on their way to Russia
traveling under another set of passports in the name of Rubins.
Some time later a very distracted woman appeared in the American
Embassy in Moscow and said, I believe, that she was the woman of
this Bobinson-Rubins passport, and that her husband had been seized
by the Russian secret police and she could find no trace of him and
she was in fear of her life. She was living at a hotel somewhere near
the Embassy, I believe, and she went back to her hotel.
Tlie Embassy people got worried about her and very shortly there-
after went to look her up. I don't know whether I put in there that
she was an American, an American citizen. When they got to the
hotel the manager denied that there was such a person there, denied
that he knew such a person. Our Embassy people, however, had her
room number and insisted on going up.
As they went up they found men moving furniture from that room,
moving out the furniture from that room. The woman was gone.
Later she turned up in a Soviet prison and our people had an inter-
view with her in the presence of a secret-police man.
Mrs. Rubins said that she was happy in prison and did not wish to
return to the United States, did not wish to have any help from
Americans. Mr. Robinson-Rubins was Ewald.
Mr. Nixon. He was Ewald. Now, do you know from any of your
conversations with Peters whether he had any connection with this
Robinson-Rubins-Ewald case that you have spoken about?
Mr. Chambers. Yes. I understood not only that he had connection
with that case but I. gather that prior to that Peters and this man
Ewald had been working together securing false passports for birth
certificates or naturalization papers on which American passports
could be secured.
Mr. Nixon. How were the passports on the Robinson -Rubins case
obtained ?
Mr. Chambers. They were obtained in a rather unusual way. In-
stead of going through the usual channels, the Robinson-Rubins or
their representatives went to one of the New York coinicihnen and
the passports were issued through his office. Later I believe it was
established that clerks in his office were Communists or suspected
Communists, and I understood from Mr. Peters that he had arranged
the passport deal from Ewald Robinson and Rubins.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Peters arranged the passport deal. That is what
he told you ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon, Now during the time that Peters was head of the
underground, would you say that during that time he was working in
the interests of the Government of the Soviet Union rather than in
the interests of the United States ?
Mr. Chambers. He was certainly not working in the interests of
the United States. He was working against the interests of the
United States. How directly he was working for the Government
of the Soviet Union I don't think I can say absolutely, but it is im-
plied that every Communist, by the fact of being a Conununist, is
working for the Government of the Soviet Union.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1283
Mr. Nixon. Did Mr. Peters ever tell you of any of his experiences —
I am attempting to establish by this question— —
Mr. Chambers. Yes; occasionally he reminisced and I remember
he told told me of his experiences in the First AVorld War when he
was probably a noncommissioned officer first on the Serbian front
and later on the Kussian front and then on the Italian front.
I remember one incident especially of the Italian campaign. At
zero hour they were supposed to advance against very strong Italian
lines in the mountains, and the lines were considered so strong that
it was feared that the soldiers, the Austrian soldiers, wouldn't ad-
vance.
However, they did, and as they came into the Italian line they
found line after line of men dead, the reason being that the Germans
who had come up in support of the Austrians had shelled the Italians
from beyond the hills, and due to some structure of the terrain the
Austrians had not heard the barrage.
He also told me that he was believed by the soldiers to bear a
charmed life, so that during a heavy fire they would cluster around
him, endangering themselves and him.
I remember him telling me that toward the end of the war, when the
Austrian armies were crumbling, the first soldiers of the Soviets were
appearing, he was called up for some kind of insubordination, I
believe, and took his medals and either handed them or tossed them
at his superior officer.
Mr. Nixon. I have no further questions on the Peters phase at
this time.
Mr. Steipling. Mr. Chambers, when you were operating in Wash-
ington this underground apparatus, Mr. Peters was your superior?
Mr. Chambers. He was.
Mr. Stripling. Did he from time to time direct you to arrange
certain meetings ?
Mr. Chambers, He did.
Mr. Stripling. Between individuals who were employed in the
Federal Government ?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. What was the purpose of those meetings ?
Mr. Chambers. What Mr. Peters had to say to most of those people
I don't know because I wasn't present.
Mr. Stripling. You were not present at the meetings ?
Mr. Chambers. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. Was it the policy to keep you as much underground
as possible?
Mr. Chambers. Completely underground.
Mr. Stripling. Completely underground?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Even though certain people were members of the
Communist Party, all of those people did not know that you were a
member of the underground ; is that correct?
Mr. Chambers. You mean people in the open party ?
INIr. Stripling. That is right.
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
]Mr. Stripling. Did anyone in the open party know that you were
in the underground that voii know of?
1284 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Chambers. I believe Max Bedacht knew I was in the under-
ground.
Mr. Stripling. Any of this group in Washington? For example,
did William Rosen — did you know William Rosen?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. Stripling. Did vou see Peters at various times in Xew York
City?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; I did.
Mr. Stripling. After you joined the underground?
Mr. Chambers. Certainly.
Mr. Stripling. Where would you meet him in New York ?
Mr. Chambers. Usually in Automats, Childs restaurants, in some
of these cafeterias.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet him at the Communist Party
headquarters after you were involved in the underground?
Air. Chambers. I never did.
Mr. Stripling. Back when you were the editor of New Masses, on
the staff of New Masses, did you see Peters at various times at Com-
munist Party headquarters?
Mr. Chambers. No ; I don't believe I saw Peters during that period.
I have no recollection of it.
Mr. Stripling. Were you given to understand that Peters was a high
functionary or an important person in tlie Communist apparatus in
this country?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; I was.
Mr. Stripling. There is no doubt in your mind about that?
Mr. Chambers. Not the slightest.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chambers, I believe when you testified in Wash-
ington on August 3 you stated that the people who comprised this
Witt-Abt-Ware group were Alger Hiss, Donald Hiss, Mrs. Alger Hiss,
Lee Pressman, John Abt, Nathan Witt, Charles Kramer, Victor Perlo.
Mr. Chambers. You will have to subtract Mrs. Alger Hiss.
Mr. Stripling. Yes; I understand. I believe your testimony was
that she was a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; that is right.
Mr. Stripling. Now, on July 31 the committee took the testimony
of Elizabeth T. Bentley in open session in Washington, D. C, at which
time she named the composition of two alleged espionage groups. She
referred to one as the Perlo group and the other as the Silvermaster
^•roup. The committee has been endeavoring to determine whether or
not there was any connection between this original iinderground ap-
paratus as initiated in 1934 and these groups which engaged in
espionage activities during the war.
Now we know that Mr. Perlo, Victor Perlo, who was a member of
he Ware-Witt-Abt group, later headed the Perlo group which Miss
Bentley referred to. We also know that Charles Kramer was active
n the operations of both groups.
Now, the committee has recently obtained evidence that would indi-
cate that George Silvermaster was also known to certain members of
the original Witt-Abt group. Did you ever know an individual by the
name of Abraham George Silverman?
Mr. Chambers. I did.
Mr. Nixon. You did.
Mr. Stripling. Was he employed in the Government?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1285
Mr. Chambers. He was then in the Railroad Retirement Board. I
am not quite sure what his position was, but I understand it was a
hi^h one.
Mr. Stripling. Was he a Communist ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; he was.
Mr. Stripling. How do you know he was a Communist ?
Mr. Chambers. I am sure. We had discussions on it. Not only am
I sure we had discussions on the subject, but he was introduced to me
by Peter with the implicit understanding that he was a Communist
and under Communist discipline.
Mr. Stripling. Now, Mr. Chairman, Abraham George Silverman
was director of the Bureau of Research and Information Services.
He was also with the United States Railroad Retirement Board, later
an economic adviser to the Chief of x^iialysis and Plans, as Assistant
Chief of Air Staff, Material and Services for the Air Forces. He
appeared before the committee about 10 days ago and declined to
answer questions whether or not he was involved in these espionage
activities on the grounds that he might incriminate himself.
In line with your activities as a Communist, did you ever communi-
cate or contact Abraham George Silverman ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. NixoN. Well, now, will you indicate to the committee the major
instances that you recall in which you have talked to George Silver-
man, and what about ?
Mr. Chambers. Shall I describe mv original meetings, and so
forth?
Mr. Nixon. Yes.
Mr. Chambers. Peter at one point told me that he had a trouble-
some comrade there, a man named George Silverman, who was the
only member of the groups who found the dues excessive, and he
asked me if I would take on Silverman and straighten him out on the
question of the necessity of dues paying, and in general keep up his
morale, which was very low.
Mr. Nixon. Then, that occurred approximately in what year ?
Mr. Chambers. I would think it could have been at the end of
1936.
Mr. NixoN. Well, then, did you know Silverman over a period of
time?
Mr. Chambers. "X es ; I knew him at least a year, perhaps longer.
Mr. Nixon. Did you contact Silverman on any other matter that you
can recall ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; do you want me to describe it ?
Mr. Nixon. Describe the circumstances that you can recall.
Mr. Chambers. In 1937, when I had definitely decided to break
with the Communist Party, I thought that if I left the party, left
Washington, without leaving any trace of myself at all — first. I could
be assassinated without any possibility of a motive being established,
and furthermore, there would be no record of anything I might have
to say about it later. Therefore, I went to Peter — I don't know
whether I went to Peter first or Silverman first, but the succession
doesn't matter very much — and said that I could not continue to
flutter around Washington here year after year without some kind of
an occupation or name, and I asked George Silverman to get me a job
in the Government. Mr. Peter agreed to this separately.
1286 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Silverman referred me to one Irving Kaplan who "was, I believe,
at that time coheacl of something called the Federal Research Project
or the National Research Project. I have forgotten which. Mr.
Kaplan was then living in Philadelphia. I went to Philadelphia and
spent an evening with him and discnssed the problem. Now, I had
known Mr. Kaplan before. He knew my real name.
Mr. Nixon. Did Silverman know your real name ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; he did not. He knew me as Carl.
Mr. Nixon. I see. Now, you saw Mr. Kaplan, and then what hap-
pened ?
Mr. Chambers. I saw Mr. Kaplan, and he told me that he would try
to arrange matters, and he tried to arrange matters so ex]3editiously
that within, certainly within a matter of days, probably within 24
hours or so, I had a job with the Federal Government.
Mr. Nixon. You were on the pay roll 'i
Mr. Chambers. I was on the pay roll.
Mr. Nixon. Mr. Kaplan arranged that job?
Mr. Chambers. I understand that he and Silverman together
arranged it. I don't know exactly what part was assigned to each.
Mr. Nixon. Now, under what name did you take that job?
Mr. Chambers. I took tliat job under my name J. V. Chambers, if I
remember correctly. Certainly J and probablv V.
Mr. Nixon. That is V for Vivian?
Mr. Chambers. Yes. I could be mistaken about that. The records
will show.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall where you worked ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes. I worked for the so-called National Research
or Federal Research project. I was sworn in on the job in some office
building downtown, I should think near Seventh Street or Eleventh
Street.
j\lr. Nixon. But you were still a paid functionary of the Commu-
nist Party at that time ?
Mr. Chambers. Certainly, certainly.
Mr, Nixon. Well, did your duties here take so much of your time
that they interfered with your work for the Communist Party?
Mr. Chambers. No ; they did not. Besides, my work for the Com-
munist Party was sloping off at that time.
Mr. Nixon. Well, what type of work did you do ?
Mr. Chambers. I was put to marking an index for some railroad-
labor study, I believe, and I was told not to hurry with the job because
that would bring it to an end prematurely, so it was purely a boon-
doggling operation.
Mr. NixoN. A boondoggling operation ?
Mr. Chambers. Surely. Perhaps I should say where I worked
physically.
Mr. Nixon. Yes. AVhere else did you work ?
Mr. Chambers. I worked only a short time in that downtown office,
and I was then moved up to an office, I would think about Fifteenth
and C, which I believe to have been another office of the Railroad
Retirement Board. Their main office was uptown, and I stayed there
a short time. Then I was moved over to the auditorium, which was
a vast circus over on Constitution and Nineteenth, somewhere in that
area.
Mr. Nixon. Go ahead.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1287
Mr. Chambers. And after staying there long enough to establish the
fact I was to establish it was ended, terminated.
Mr. Nixon. Now, you say that you took the job because you wanted
to establish an identity?
JNIr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. You didn't tell Peters that ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; certainly not.
Mr. Nixon. The reason that you gave to Peters and to Silverman
and to Kaplan, that is, that you had
Mr. Chambers. Was the need for a cover.
Mr. Nixon. That you had to have a cover ?
JNIr, Chambers. That is right.
Mr. Nixon. Now, did you get paid while you were on this job?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; I did.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall where your checks were sent?
Mr. Chambers. Yes; they were delivered to my home at Mount
Eoj-al Terrace in Baltimore.
Mr. Nixon. Do you recall what your salary was?
Mr. Chambers. No; I don't.
Mr. Nixon. Could you recall within certain limits as to what jout
salary was?
Mr. Chambers. I think it was more than six thousand, but I have
forgotten exactly what it was.
Mr. Nixon. You think it was more than
Mr. Cpi AMBERS. I think it was more than six thousand.
Mr. Nixon. Than six thousand a year?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Nixon. And you got that job, you say, within roughly 24 hours
after the wheels started to turn^
Mr. Chambers. I would say that this is a spectacular instance of
the ease with which a Communist could at all times slide other Com-
munists into practically any Government agency in which they had
a foothold.
Mr. Nixon. And at the time that Silverman sent you to Kaplan,
Silverman didn't even know that Chambers was your real name ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; he did not know that that was my real name.
He assumed that that was for the purpose of holding that job.
Mr. Nixon. When these people employed you and recommended
you, they knew you were a representative of the Communist under-
ground in Washington?
Mr. Chambers. They gave me that assistance on that understand-
ing.
Air. Nixon. And this was a cover job for those activities?
Mr. Chambers. That is correct.
Mr. Nixon. How long did you hold the job, Mr. Chambers?
Mr. Chambers. I don't think more than 2 months ; perhaps 3.
Mr. Nixon. After you left the job, what happened then?
Did you leave the pnrty immediately?
Mr. Chambers. I think there may have been 2 or 3 weeks in be-
tween. I have no longer a recollection, but I left very shortly there-
after.
Mr. Nixon. In other words, you severed your relationship with
the party completely a few weeks afterward ?
Mr. Chambers. I disappeared.
1288 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Nixon. Completely disappeared?
Mr. Chambers. Yes, sir.
Mr. Strilping. Mr. Chairman, could I clear up one point ?
Did you say Irving Kaplan was in Philadelphia ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Was this Federal research project in Philadelphia?
Mr. Chambers. That I am not sure of. It may have had head-
quarters or a branch there. I was never entirely clear as to what
the whole project was.
Mr. Nixon. But you got checks ?
Mr. Chambers. There is no question about it.
Mr. Stripling. How much work did you perform ?
Mr. Chambers. F'ractically none.
Mr. Stripling. Just made an appearance ?
Mr. Chambers. I sat in the offices and made up some kind of an
index.
Mr. Nixon. Didn't your immediate superior make you work?
Mr. Chambers. My immediate superior was a Communist, Dr.
somebody or other, whose name I cannot recall, but that will also
come from the record.
Mr. Stripling. "Well, Mr. Chairman, we are checking. We will
check the records in Washington and get that. I believe that we
get it
Mr. Nixon. We will introduce no new names in the hearing here
that have not previously been mentioned until we have had an oppor-
tunity to check the records. I might say also that it is quite difficult
to check these records, because this apparently was one of those
agencies that came and went in Washington during that period.
Mr. Stripling. Now, on this Irving Kaplan, Miss Bentley testified
on July 31 that Irving Kaplan was an employee of the War Produc-
tion Board during the time that she was operating in Washington and
he was associated with both the Silvermaster and the Perlo group.
Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not that is the same
Irving Kaplan ?
Mr. Chambers. No ; I don't, but I would assume that it might very
well be.
Mr. Nixon. You had known Irving Kaplan before, though, under
your real name ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes. He had gone to Columbia University where
I believe he studied philosophy.
Mr. Nixon. When you did?
Mr. Chambers. When I was there.
Mr. Nixon. I see. Now, did Mr. Alger Hiss know of this Federal
job that you had?
Mr. Chambers. Yes ; I told him — I didn't tell him the purpose for
which I wanted it, but I told him that I had got a cover job in the
Government and his remarks was, at least in paraphrase, "Well, I ex-
pect you will turn up in the State Department one of these days," the
place where he was working.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1289
Mr. Nixon. But he didn't know you were taking this job under the
name "Chambers" ?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. Nixon. He never at any time knew that that was your name,
to your knowledge?
Mr. Chambers. No.
Mr. McDowell. This was what year, Mr. Chambers ?
jVIr. Chambers. 1937 or the beginning of 1938.
Mr. Stripling. You think it might have extended into 1938?
I\Ir. Chambers. Yes: I think probablv the first 2 or 3 months of
1938?
Mr. Nixon. Before we let this witness go, to establish again by what
may appear to be probative questions that we are talking about the
same man :
Can you recall any other conversation of a personal matter with
Mr. Silverman that we can check objectively; that is, as to his habits,
or hobbies, or anything he discussed with you ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes. He used to discuss symphonic music and his
dislike for Koussevitzky as a conductor and his preference for Tos-
canini, I remember very clearly.
Mr. Nixon. Did he ever discuss this matter of dues in the Communist
Party with you ?
Mr. Chambers. Yes: he discussed that at some length.
Mr. Nixon. That's all the questions I have.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Stripling?
I don't think I have any questions, because Mr. Nixon and Mr. Strip-
ling liave clone a very good job here. I think the committee ought to
know, however, that this is a curious tale as it unfolds.
As I recall the daj's of 1037, the country was in rather desperate
straits. Millions were out of work. Hundreds of thousands of some
of the finest people of the country were raking leaves for $50, $59.50,
and so forth, and a Communist could slide in the Government on the
feeblest, phoniest excuse for work at $6,000. It is a curious thing.
Also, Mr. Stripling, another curious angle of this whole thing, there
was a witness ahead of Mr. Chambers who has been in this country for
24 j^ears. I haven't heard anybody testify what was his legitimate
occupation, if any. Now, here is a man who maintains an apartment
up the street, just got back from a transcontinental tour, who obviously
had some place in Washington, has an automobile, and for 24 years
apparently this has been going on. Can you tell me if he had any sort
of cover job or any income aside from being a functionary of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Stripling. Well. Mr. Chairman, the committee intends to
divulge, in open session in Washington in September, the details of
Mr. Peters' operations: but since he has declined to answer questions,
I don't see any good reason to make it public at this time.
Mr. McDo\\t:ll. Have you any further questions of Mr. Chambers ?
Mr. Stripling. No. I would like to say this: That the committee
1290 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
is prepared even at this moment to put on f). witness to place Mr. Peters
in various responsible positions in the Communist Party as well as in
underground operations, but there again, since the witness has declined
to testify on these matters, I feel we should withhold these witnesses
until the Washington session.
Mr. McDowell. All right.
Mr. Chambers, again may the Chair state that your Government is
profoundly grateful for your cooperation. Thank yon. sir. You will
remain under subpena until further notice. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Chambers. Thank you.
Mr. McDowell. The Chair will announce that the committee is about
to go into executive session.
(Whereupon, at 3 p. m., the subcommittee retired into executive
session. )
HEARINGS REGARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
MONDAY, AUGUST 30, 1948
»
United States House of Representatives,
Special Subcommittee of the
Committee ox Un-American Activities,
, New York^ N. Y.
executive session ^
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 1 : 20 p. m., in room 108,
Federal Courthouse, New York City, Hon. John McDowell presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives John McDowell (pre-
siding) and Richard M. Nixon.
Staff members present : Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator; and
Louis J. Russell, investigator.
Mr. McDowell. The committee will be in order.
The chairman will state for the record that this is a subcommittee
of the Committee on Un-American Activities appointed by Chair-
man Thomas on August 26 to take testimony for tiie further investi-
gation into espionage in the United States Government.
Those present on the subcommittee are Mr. Nixon and Mr. Mc-
Dowell, sitting in the Federal Courthouse, city of New York.
(Pursuant to the adjournment in the open hearing, the subcom-
mittee reconvened in executive session at 3 : 05 p. m. )
Mr. McDowell. The committee will be in order.
The Chair will state for the record that this is a subcommittee ap-
pointed August 26 by the chairman of the Committee on Un-American
Activities, J. Parnell Thomas, of New Jersey, to take further testi-
mony in tiie matter of espionage in the United States.
Off the record.
(Discussion was had outside the record.)
Mr. McDowell. On the record.
You do solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give this com-
mittee will be the trutli, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God ?
Mr. Berle. I do.
Mr. ^McDowell. Be seated, sir. You may smoke if you care.
Mr. Stripling.
TESTIMONY OF ADOLF A. BERLE, JE.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Berle, will you give your name ?
Mr. Berle. Adolf Augustus Berle, Jr.
** Testimony taken in executive session and released with this printing.
1291
1292 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling, Wliat is your occupation ?
Mr. Berle. a lawyer and professor of law, Columbia University
Law School.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever employed in the Federal Government ?
Mr. Berle. I was.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever emploj^ed in the Department of State.
Mr. Berle. I was. I was Assistant Secretary of State from the
latter i:)art of February 1938 to the end of 1944 when I became Am-
bassador to Brazil.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Berle, on August the third, an individual by
the name of Whittaker Chambers, w^ho is now one of the senior editors
of Time magazine, appeared before the committee in' open session in
Washington and testified regarding an alleged underground apparatus
which he testified operated from 1934 to 1937. He gave the committee
in some detail his participation in that apparatus. He also told the
committee that in 1938 he left the Communist Party and went into
hiding, as he referred to it.
He gave us the names of the following people who comprised this
select group in 1934, 1935, and 1936. They were John Abt, Nathan
Witt, Lee Pressman, Charles Kramer, Victor Perlo, Henry Collins,
Alger Hiss, and Donald Hiss. Mr. Chambers also told the committee
that he came to see you on August 23, 1939, and he saw you at
your home on Woodley Road. I believe he recalled it as the home of
Henry Stimson. I believe he testified that he was accompanied by
Isaac Don Levine, and at that meeting he alleges that he told you of
this group.
Now, the committee is investigating the many phases of his testi-
mony, as you are fully aware and have read notices of in the press.
I ask you now : Do you recall ever having met an individual known as
Whittaker Chambers ?
Mr. Berle. Yes; I do.
Mr. Striplin(;. Would you tell the committee the circumstances,
in your own way ?
Mr. Berle. I would like to say that I am testifying from recollection
about something that happened 9 years ago. If there are discrepancies
in detail, please lay it to faulty memory and not lack of desire to tell
the story. My recollection differs in some slight detail from the state-
ment which you have made.
In the latter part of August 1939. Mr. Isaac Don Levine telephoned
and asked whether I would receive Whittaker K. Chambers who was
then on the staff of Time magazine. I believe he was not then a senior
editor but was working in the book review section, or something of
that kind. He stated that lie had had a suggestion from Mr. Marvin
Mclntyre, the secretary of the President, that it might be useful to
talk to me.
He further stated, Mr. Levine, that is, that Mr. Chambers did not
wish to come to the office but wished to see me at some convenient
place outside. I suggested that Mr. Levine might call on me at the
house we were then occupying in Woodley Road wliich we had rented
from Mr. Henry L. Stimson. This is before Mr. Stimson was Secre-
trary of War.
I do not recall that Mr. Levine accompanied Mr. Chambers, but that
may be an absence of memory. Mr. Chambers came to see me at my
house after dinner. This was the latter part of August 1939, My
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1293
recollection is it was a little later than August 23, but I wouldn't be
certain. The reason for believing it was later is' that the Hitler-Stalin
pact had been announced, I think, on the 26th of August, and I, or we,
felt that war would probably ensue rapidly after that, and my dis-
tinct recollection is that it was between the time that pact was an-
nounced and the day the Germans invaded Poland, so I should fix the
date between August 26 and September 1. If this does not accord
with the record, as I say
Mr. Stripling. The date is not particularly important. I think we
will agree it was in 1939. That is sufficient.
Mr. Berle. It was in August of 1939. Mr. Chambers stated that he
wanted to disclose certain information about Communist activities in
Washington. He related a story to me that he had been a member of
the undercover Communist group from 1934 to end of 1937, as nearly
as I can recall ; that at that time, and apparently as a result of the purge
activities which had been going on, he had decided to cut clear of the
whole thing. He stated that he had then lived in hiding for a year or
more under various names. He appeared to he, even then in fear of
some sort of reprisal and was obviously under some emotional strain.
He said that in addition to the New York core, the party policy,
the Communist Party policy, had been to try to develop a group of
sympathizers who might be of use to them later in the United States
Government.
This was not, as he put it, any question of espionage. There was no
espionage involved in it. He stated that their hope merely was to get
some people who would be sympathetic to their point of view. With
that in mind apparently a study group of some sort had been formed
of men who were interested in knowing something about Russia and
Russian policy and the general Communist theory of life, and so on.
He said that in that group there had been various people at one time
or another but that it had finally come down to four men who had been
named at that time as being in or about the Government service, and
he mentioned Alger Hiss, Donald Hiss, Nathan Witt, and Pressman,
who had previously been in the Department of Agriculture and at that
time had got out and was counsel to the CIO. I don't recall the names
of these other men. They were not in the Government service, in any
event.
He said that these men, it was hoped, would go, as they called it,
"underground" ; that is to say, that they would not appear as part of
the well-known or open Communist group, but that they would simply
be there and be sympathetic.
In one respect, what he told me omitted something that he has told
you : He did not make the direct statement that any of these men were
members of the Communist Party. They were apparently, from what
I then gathered, men who were sympathetic to their general point of
view and to whom they might have access and perhaps a sympathetic
approach in case anybody brought a request there.
I asked whether he had given this information to the FBI, whether
they already had that information either from him or secondarily
through some other source by which it had been transmitted, and I
asked whether he would come forward and state that or whether this
was merely an oral communication. He said that he did not want
to appear in the transaction at that time ; that he tried to cut all his
connections. . He didn't want to spend the rest of his life with this
1294 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
lianging around his neck ; that he wanted to tell the story, and then
he wanted to disappear from the proceedings and not do anything
further about it.
I said that this was a pretty grave matter, if true, but that we needed
something more than a mere ex parte statement without somebody who
was prepared to do something or at least bear w^itness; that it was
difficult to bring charges or otherwise tackle th.e question unless some-
body at least were prepared to stand to the facts stated. He said, yes,
that was true, and all he could do was to give the Avarning, and there
followed then a rather elaborate explanation of the Communist Party
of the underground, which was not xmfamiliar to many of us who
lived here in New York and actually struggled with it. I think the
entire conversation may have lasted an hour and a half or something
of that kind. I think that answers your question.
Mr. Stripling. Yes. Xow, may I ask this : Did you subsequently do
anything officiallj^ or unofficially about this information?
Mr. Berle. Yes ; I did a great deal. I was disturbed a good deal,
but not so much at the three or four men named. Mr. Pressman was
out of the Government. To be blunt about it, Mr. Witt's statements
and sympathies were so well known that what Mr. Chambers had said
added nothing to anything that wasn't public knowledge at the time.
I looked into the then position of the two Hiss boys, first.
According to my recollection, neither of them had any position
that amounted to very much in the State Department. My recollec-
tion is that at that time Alger Hiss was doing some relatively unim-
portant work in, I think, the legal department, and I have forgotten
what Donald Hiss was doing, but neither w'as in any position where
he either had access to confidential information or where he had much
to do with policy, so for the moment there was no immediate danger.
Further, the idea that the two Hiss boys and Nat Witt were going^
to take over the United States Government didn't strike me as any
immediate danger. What was interesting was that the Communist
Party was really trying an undercover lobbying operation, which it
really amounted to, plus the attempt apparently to reach various
people who might be useful to them later, and that worried me and two
or three people I talked to.
I checked on the two Hiss boys. Specifically, I checked with Dean
Acheson, and later I checked when Acheson became the Assistant Sec-
retary of State and Alger Hiss became his executive assistant. That,
to the best of my knowledge, was the first time when Hiss would have
been in a position to do anything effectively.
Acheson said that he had known the family and these two boys from
childhood and he could vouch for them absolutely. I further checked
and found that Mr. Justice Frankfurter would give them an exactly
similar endorsement. You had, therefore, a chain of endorsements by
the men for whom they w'orked, but reputable men, Avhether you
agree with their j^oint of view or not. and this seemed to negative any
immediate danger.
Schematically, however, I believed that Chambers was telling the
tnith as he saw it, so I caused the Department to establish very close
relations with the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
A little later, a section in the State Department was organized
which was then knowm as the Foreign Activities Correlation Division.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1295
The name is meaningless, and designedly so. Its business was to
follow all of these various activities, as they appeared in Washington,
and in respect of any group that might appear to be sympathetic either
with the Communists or with the Nazi-Fascist point of view. That
section has been in existence until very recently; I think a couple of
weeks ago it was merged with the Security Division or some similar
section in the State Department.
We likewise established a weekly liaison meeting with the FBI at
which we exchanged information. We tried to trace out the groups
which endeavorecl to have representation through any individuals in
Washington, and we endeavored to reach back to see whether the Com-
munist apparatus was beginning to try to activate the foreign language
groups in the United States. This brought it. of course, squarely
within the jurisdiction of the State Department.
This still was pretty inadequate, as it seems to us, because it related
only to the State Department. The Department of Justice meanwhile,
knowing the espionage problem, began to get active, and we worked
with them on some legislation. After all, there was no law involved
in a man's being even a member of the Communist Party at that time.
There was no evidence that anyljody had been.
We accordingly caused to be written the Foreign Agents Registra-
tion Act, and that act in due time was passed by the Congress — as no
doubt Mr. McDowell will recall. The administration was placed in
the State Department. I actually administered it as deputy for Judge
Moore who was then counselor of the State Department until such
time as we could get it back to the Department of Justice where it now
is, and where, of course, it belongs.
In addition to that, we had in one section of the European Division
a little group formed to study the foreign intelligence in the hope of
endeavoring to establish any link between the Communist group here
and tlie Russian Government. It was our theory — and it is still my
theory — that however well concealed, the Communist Party is not
interested in comnuniism primarily but is primarily interested in for-
warding the Russian interests here. Later on, thej^ may have some
idea of world revolution.
The records of those sections are in existence and they are extensive.
The work of the division remained good. It showed up later in the
State Department, particularly when the State Department took over
some of the rather loosely organized agencies. It took over later the
Board of Economic Welfare, and still later the OSS. In both cases,
there were people who had been rather hastily recruited and of whose
records we were not so sure.
I think that the protection which those sections eventually gave, plus
the added investigation we were able to make through the State De-
partment securities' service and the FBI record in considerable meas-
ure kept things pretty clear. The State Department, as a department
when I was there, was clear of it there Avith the exception of this
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Berle, let me be more specific on one particular
phase of this investigation which we have been looking into, namely,
the case of Alger Hiss, because Alger Hiss came in 2 days after Cham-
bers testified and categoricaly denied all of Chambers' testimony and
certainly gave the committee to believe that he had never seen Whit-
taker Chambers.
1296 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
In a subsequent investigation on our part, part of which was the tak-
ing of testimony in executive session of Mr. Chambers and Mr. Hiss,
Mr. Hiss did testify that he knew Whittaker Chambers as a person by
the name of George Crosley. Last Wednesday, we had a public hear-
ing at which time Mr. Hiss was on the stand for about 6 hoitiT'S. Now,
the testimony as given last Wednesday, and the evidence which was
introduced, certainly showed a very close relationship between Mr.
Chambers and Mr. Hiss over a period of several years, and there are
strong contradictions in certain testimony which Mr. Hiss gave.
As I believe was stated by Mr. Nixon, the reason for going into all
these details w^as to determine the credibility of the witnesses. Now,
this is an executive session. I am going to ask you if at any time when
3vOU were in the State Department, did Mr. Hiss ever do anything,
whether it was on a policy level or on a minor level — did he ever do
anything that would arouse any suspicion on your part as one of the
two top administrators and officials of the Department of State which
would lead you to believe that he might be either sympathetic to the
Communist Party or that he might be, shall we say, serving the
interest of the Soviet Union or the Communist Party ?
I know that is a long statement, a long question, but what I would
like to know is : Were you ever at any time suspicious of Mr. Hiss?
Mr. Berle. a better way of saying it is : I was worried. I ought
to say, begin by confessing a prejudice here so that you can discount
whatever I say here.
As I think many people know, in the fall of 1944 there was a differ-
ence of opinion in the State Department. I felt that the Russians
were not going to be sympathetic and cooperative. Victory was then
assured, though not complete, and the intelligence reports which were
in my charge, among other things, indicated a very aggressive policy
not at all in line with the kind of cooperation everyone was hoping
for, and I was pressing for a pretty clean-cut show-down then when
our position was strongest.
The opposite group in the State Department was largely the men —
Mr. Acheson's group, of course, with Mr. Hiss as his principal assistant
in the matter. Wliether that was a difference on foreign policy — and
the question could be argued both ways; it wasn't clean-cut — was a
problem, but at that time Mr. Hiss did take what we would call today
the pro-Russian point of view.
Now, that was reason for worry. It is not necessarily a reason to
draw the conclusion that he was a disloyal man because many people
were quite loyal, including a good many, of the Army officers who felt
the Russian Army would be important in case of an invasion of Japan
and that by consequence it was desirable not to raise any issues until
later.
I say that in Mr. Hiss' defense, although I got trimmed in that fight,
and, as a result, went to Brazil, and that ended my diplomatic career.
I mention that, because I did have a biased view.
Now, there was one other thing that worried me, too. At that time
we were all trying not to tell anything that ought not be told, and
there were pretty consistent leaks whenever anything went through
that office. Usually, we would know about them because they would
come out in Mr. Drew Pearson's column, and one of the leg men was
})retty intimate in that office. Well, this was reason for caution. It
wasn't reason necessarily for indicting the man. I ought to state that
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1297
for Avhatever it is worth. What we actually did do, partly as the
result of that but it must be added also for general security reasons,
M'as to see that the ultrasecret intelligence, what was called the magic
in the hearing, the intercepted foreign codes, never went outside of
my own safe. I took them personally to the Under Secretary, to the
Secretary of State. We didn't let them run around.
This was not any fixed suspicion, but just : "If there is any chance,
let's not take any" ; and other people besides Mr. Hiss or anyone else
could give leaks to Washington columnists, so I don't know as you
could allege that as fatal crime, but it just meant you are a little
cautious.
Yet, in general it was true during that period Mr. Hiss was all for
cooperation with Russia. . This was also the policy during the war,
and at the time when the question was raised as to whether we ought
not to begin tightening up. He may have been right objectively. I
don't know. I disagreed.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Berle, when was the Yalta agreement?
Mr. Berle. The Yalta agreement?
Mr. Stripling. The conference.
Mr. Berle. As I recall, it was February 1945.
Mr. Stripling. Were you in the State Department ?
^Ir. Berle. I was in Brazil at that time.
Mr. Stripling. Are you familiar with the persons wdio attended
the conference, and so on ?
Mr. Berle. Well, I am familiar Avitli some of them.
Mr. Stripling. I mean Mr. Hiss was
Mr. Berle. Mr. Hiss was there.
Mr. Stripling. Quite active ; wasn't he ?
Mr. Berle. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Byrnes was Secretary of State?
Mr. Berle. No; Mr. Stettiifius was Secretary of State at that time.
]Mr. Stripling. Did you ever serve under Mr. Byrnes ?
Mr. Berle. Yes; Mr. Stettinius got out, I think, in May or June of
1945 when Mr. Byrnes took over at that time.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever discuss Alger Hiss with ]Mr. Byrnes,
from the standpoint of
Mr. Berle. No ; Mr. Byrnes was almost continually in Europe the
whole time, and I was in Brazil. Actually I only saw Mr. Byrnes
once or twice during my embassy activities and there is nothing un-
natural about that because he was engaged in continuous European
conferences, and by that time it was a department job. and I was far
away.
No, tlie men that I talked to were his immediate superiors. The
first we checked, of course, and when ]\Ir. Hiss began to move im in
the hierarchy with Mr. Acheson, I checked with Mr. Acheson,
Frankly, I still don't know whether this is the boy that got in deep
and then pulled clear, or what goes on here.
You have in mind that when Mr. Chambers talked to me in 1939
he was talking about something that was then 2 years old at the time
when there was no strain on relations. A man might be very much
interested in Russia, and most people in the State Department were.
I was myself, so far as that is concerned, so that about all you had to
go on was that — and I must add that Chambers did not slate to me
80408— 48— —51
1298 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
\
that he was a member of the Communist Party ; merely that this was
a group that was hoping to be sympathetic, so that was all you had
to go on. Yon don't like to file charges against a man nnless you are
prepared to back them up.
As a result of this, what we got was the organization of a couple
of sections in the State Department to watch, tightening up of the
FBI's machinery, eventually the Foreign Registration Act, and even-
tually a rake-over.
Mr. Browder was indicted for a false passport violation. Frankly,
tlie dangerous element here was not in a couple of minor officials in
the Government so much as it was in the strength of the apparatus in
New York and abroad. Not that you would displace one official and
try to replace him, but the many, many -hundreds of thousands in
Government; that was the thing that gave cause for concern.
Mr. Stripling. I have no further questions.
Mr. McDowFXL. Mr. Nixon.
Mr. Nixon. I think Mr. Berle has covered the matter very well. I
don't think I have any questions.
Mr. McDowell. Mr. Berle, I think you have. too. We are sup-
posed to be experts in the matter of subversive affairs, or at l^ast we
have available on our staff experts. You were a diplomat. You had
many things to do and we are apt to wonder about certain things. I
think that the apparatus that you described or referred to was much
deeper than you knew and most certainly much deeper than we knew.
We are just beginning to appreciate how deep and how widespread
it was.
It was testified here before you came in by Mr. Chambers — as I told
you in our conversation — that out of a mere whim to identify himself
under the name of Chambers he was able within 24 hours to get a
job, a $6,000 job, and his boss, if I rec^ill his testimony, was a Com-
munist, too. Well, that testimony or similar testimony has run all
thiough this, so it is our job now to find out how deep it went, and
see if these men were acting — as the charge has been — as actual spiv'^s
and couriers for the Soviet Government.
If 3'OU gentlemen have nothing more, I will thank Mr. Berle for
coming down here. You have been very cooperative and very fine,
and I Avould like to tell the members of the committee and the mem-
bers of the staff that I qualified Mr. Berle's coming here today with
the members of the press that under no circumstances was he to be
involved in any sense in regard to status or character.
Mr. Stripling. I would like to say this, Mr. Chairman: That after
the fifty-odd witnesses we have heard in the last 3 weeks, it is very
refreshing to have a witness come in with the forthrightness of
Mr. Berle.
Mr. Berlk. I would like to say that during these years which you
are examining, as well as subsequently and now, I was a continuous
target of the Ccmimunist press. In 19?>9 and after, I think I was
public enemy No. 1 so far as the Daily Worker was concerned. It
was hai'dly an issue, so that I am not seriously worried about being
qualified as a Communist sympathizer.
I would like to say this: Like you, I have a considerable amount
of res])ect, or lack of it, as you choose, for the Communist apparatus.
I have had some experience with the men who have been in it and
then got out of it. They sometimes tend to exaggerate a little the
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1299
depths of the experience they have had. They have obviously been
through a violent emotional experienx?e, and I oather that part of the
Comnuniist apparatus is designed to impress the people in it with the
all-powerful quality of it, probably exaggerating their own impor-
tance.
It is a most infernal damned nuisance, and in time of war could be
dangerous. I should question whether their actual importance at any
time, except in a few limited areas in Washington, was as grave as.
they would like to make out. There was, however, a good deal around
here, notably in certain unions and in certain elements of New York
State and City services where, under the civil-service arrangements,,
members of particular unions like the UOPWA either came inta
]3ublic jobs or the employees were later organized into such unions.
That became quite considerable.
We have the problem in the State of New York as well as in the
Federal Government.
Mr. McDowell. Well, I have had a similar thought. However,
when I think back over the years and think of the description of this
business, it began many years ago and the men who were in it for an
ideal and discovered that it wasn't that, it was something else, men
like Max Eastman, Ben Mandel here, Ben Gitlow. all the way down,
a constant parade of smart minds, honest minds, if you peer at the
things they have described and said, the pattern seems to be always
about the same, so I am beginning to wonder if even we have taken
it in as serious a fashion as we should.
Mr. Berle. Well, I agree with that. There is a great deal to be
said for it. Very few men of active mind in some stage of the game
haven't been interested. There are two obvious types, the men who
get going all the way to the point they can either be held in by black-
mail or are almost hypnotized by it.
The ti'ouble, it seems to me, is that this is almost psychology as
much as it is detective work, Mr. McDowell. Why certain men are
fascinated by it is a problem. The number of such men is relatively
small. 1 think more men l)reak clear, and a great many of these
people who are intellectually interested, I gather, are of very little
use to the Communist Part}'. They are too romantic. They do break
clear after a while, and they are just taken for the ride, so to speak.
Mr. ISIcDowELL. Well, this Mr. Hiss has a very similar background
to my own. His father apparently was not a rich man, but had suffi-
cient funds to see that he went to a nice boarding school. He was a
brilliant young man. His home life was, I judge, very similar to my
own; about the same sort of people. He is romantic. There is no
question about that. He is temperamental, he is emotional, and if
this story be true, if we can finally prove this, it is a dreadful thing
that a fine young man, or a pair of fine young men such as they appear
to be
Mr. Berle. Well, I am not Counsel for Mr. Hiss. Nevertheless, my
observations of New York Communists — and I saw a lot — were that
they didn't throw around party cards very easily. I am by no means
clear that Hiss would have been taken into the Communist Party
unless things had gone along further than they apparently did.
Sympathizer, possibly, but to be taken into the fold, it is a pretty
exclusive and secret organization, that Communist Partj', and I recall
1300
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
that Chambers did not make any direct statement to me then. I am
not sure whether he did to the committee.
People made contributions without being members of the Communist
Party. We all of us know boys that have chipped in on this, that,
and other campaigns, or made donations or what not at one time or
another without ever being allowed inside the fold. *
Mr. McDowell. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Berle.
(Whereupon, at 3: 45 p. m., the committee adjourned.)
X
HEARINGS RErTARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 8, 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Special Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington, D. C.
executr^ session *^
The special subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10 a. m. in room
226, Okl House Oflice Building, Hon. J. Parnell Thomas (chairman)
presiding.
Committee members present : Representatives J. F'arnell Thomas,
John McDowell, and Richard B. Vail.
Staff members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator;
Louis J. Russell, Donald T. Appell, and William A. Wheeler, inves-
tigators; and A. S. Poore, editor, for the committee.
The Chairman. The record will show that a subcommittee is sit-
ting consisting of Mr. McDowell, Mr. Vail, and Mr. Thomas. A quo-
rum is present.
The hrst witness will be Mrs. Rosen.
Mrs. Rosen, will you stand, please, and be sworn ?
Do you solemnlj^ swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Rosen. I do.
The Chairman. Sit down, please.
Mr. Stripling, your witness.
TESTIMONY OF MES. ADDIE ROSEN (ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL
MAURICE BRAVERMAN)
Mr. Stripling. Mrs. Rosen, are you accompanied by counsel ?
Mrs. Rosen. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Counsel, will you identify yourself?
Mr. Braverman. My name is Maurice Braverman, member of the
bar of Maryland in Baltimore. My address is 15 South Gay Street,
Baltimore, Md.
Mr. Stripling. I believe you appeared wdtli Mr. Rosen when he
appeared.
Mr. Braverman. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. Will you please state your full name, Mrs. Rosen ?
Mrs. Rosen. Addie Rosen. Mrs. Addie Rosen.
■•^ Testimony taken in executive session and made public with this printing.
1301
1302 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripuxg. How do you spell that?
" Mrs. EosEN. A-d-d-i-e R-o-s-e-n.
Mr. Stripling. Where were you born?
Mrs. EosEN. In Poland.
Mr. Stripling. What year ?
Mrs. EosEN. 1888. I have no record of the exact date.
Mr. Stripling. When did you first arrive in the Uiiited States?
Mrs. EosEN. I came to this country on February 14, 1902.
Mr. Stripling. AVhere did you enter?
Mrs. EosEN. New York.
Mr. Stripling. What was your maiden name?
Mrs. EosEN. My maiden name was Baron.
Mr. Stripling. When were you naturalized?
Mrs. EosEN. I think it was ni Norfolk, Va. I don't remember the
exact date. It was a long time ago.
Mr. Stripling. About when was it?
Mrs. EosEN. I think our oldest son was 4 months old and he is going
to be 37, I believe.
Mr. Stripling. Apj^roximately 36 years ago?
Mrs. EosEN. Something like that. I don't remember exactly.
Mr. Stripling. When were you married ?
Mrs. EosEN. In 1910 on December 25.
Mr. Stripling. When did you first come to Washington, D. C ?
Mrs. EosEN. We came here in the first week of June 1941.
Mr. Stripling. June 1941 ?
Mrs. EosEN. Yes.
jNIr. Stripling. Was that the first time you had ever been in Wash-
ington ?
Mrs. EosEN. Yes ; we have been in Washington — we came to Wash-
ington in 1927 and Ave left here in 1929.
Mr. Stripling. Were you in Washington during the year 1936?
Mrs. EosEN. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. How many children do you have?
Mrs. EosEN. Four sons.
Mr. Stripling. Four sons?
Mrs. EosEN. That is right.
INIr. Stripling. And the oldest is 37 ?
Mrs. EosEN. Yes; that is right. j
Mr. Stripling. The youngest is how old? J
Mrs. EosEN. The youngest was this past month 22 years old. ^
Mr. Stripling. Twenty-two?
Mrs. EosEN. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. Would you name the sons beginning with the oldest. 3-
Mrs. EosEN. The oldest son's name is Lionel Milton Eosen. The :
second one is Eugene Victor Eosen.
Mr. Stripling. How old is Eugene?
Mrs. Eosen. I have another one, Cyril Eosen. They are twins.
Cyril and Eugene.
Mr. Stripling. How old are they?
Mrs. Eosen. This past August 19 they were 35, 1 think I am correct
on that.
Mr. Stripling. And then your voungest son?
Mrs. Eosen. Was just 22."
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1303
Mr. Stripling. What is his name?
]Mrs. EosKN. His name is William Herbert Rosen.
Mr. Stripling. Were anv of your sons in Washington. D. C, in
1936?
Mvs. Rosen. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. They were not?
Mrs. RosKN. Not that I know of.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know wliether or not yonr husband, Wil-
liam Rosen, was in Washington, D. C, in 19o6?
JNIrs. Rosen. Not to my knowledge. In fact, he wasn't.
Mr. Stripling. He was not?
Mrs. Rosen. He is my husband, so I
Mr. Stripling. Did your husband ever own a 1929 Ford roadster?
Mrs. Rosen. No.
Mr. Stripling. Do vou know whether he ever bought a car from
the Cherner JNlotor Co. ?
Mrs, Rosen. No.
Mr. Stripling. He did not?
Mrs. Rosen. No.
]N[r. Stripling. Are you related in any way to Joe Cherner, Henry
Cherner. or Leon Cherner?
Mrs. Rosen. I don't even know who they are.
Mr. Stripling. Is your husband related in any way?
Mrs. Rosen, Not that I know of.
]Mr. Stripling. Are you familiar with Mr. Benjamin Bialek?
Mrs. Rosen. Yes; I do know them. I know them, I know the
name.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know them?
Mrs. Rosen. I am telling you I know the name. You mentioned
Bialek. I know the name.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet them ?
Mrs. Rosen. I have seen them. They used to come down to a drug
store next to our business. I didn't meet them. I know who they are.
I don't know them.
Mr. Stripling. Mrs. Rosen, are you a member of the Communist
Party?
Mrs. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that any
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. You have been very free in answering the other
questions. Why is it now you decline to answer this question?
Mrs. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that
any answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Just liow would it incriminate you ? I can't under-
stand that. I have heard that answer time after time, but I can't get
it through my head just how it would incriminate you, for instance.
]Mrs. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question
The Chairman. How would it incriminate you ?
Mrs. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that
any answer I give might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. I understand you refuse. But what I would like
to know is just how would it incriminate you? Why would it in-
criminate you?
Mrs. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that
any answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
1304 * COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. In other words, you have been instructed to say
that.
Mrs. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that
any answer I give may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Let's get around to the Bialeks. That won't in-
criminate you. You said you knew them ?
Mrs. E-osEN. I know the name, don't know them close at all, just
the name.
The Chairman. You have seen them ?
Mrs. Rosen, I have seen them yes.
The Chairman. And you have met them ?
Mrs. Rosen. Not in any close way.
The Chairman. Well, you have met them, though ?
Mrs. Rosen. I have seen them.
The Chairman. And you have met them too, haven't you?
Mrs. Rosen. Well, if I have seen them, I have met them.
The Chairman. You have met them, haven't you, Mrs. Rosen?
Mrs. Rosen. Yes ; I have met them ; I have seen them.
The Chairman. Tell me where you met them.
Mrs. Rosen. I said before there is a drug store next door to our
place of business and they come in there to buy and that is where I
met them.
The Chairman. How do you know the name was Bialek?
Mrs. Rosen. Living so close by and going there, a place of business,
being friendly with them, being friendly with them you think you
are going to get their business.
The Chairman. That was the drug store you had ?
Mrs. Rosen. We didn't have no drug store. We had a cleaning
establishment and we tried to be friendly with people to get work.
The Chairman. Did you ever call at the Bialek's home ?
Mrs. Rosen. No.
The Chairman. Did they ever call at your home ?
Mrs. Rosen. No.
The Chairman. How many times do you think you talked to them?
Mrs. Rosen. Really, I don't remember. It wasn't that important.
I don't remember.
The Chairman. Why are you so certain that your husband was
not in Washington in 1936 ?
Mrs. Rosen, Well, he was mj^ husband and we lived together, so I
should know.
The Chairman. And you are positive he wasn't in Washington in
1936?
Mrs. Rosen. Absolutely positive, absolutely.
The Chairman. Twelve years ago and you ai-e very positive today
that he wasn't in Washington in 1936?
Mrs. Rosen. That is right.
The Chairman. What would you say if we could bring out testi-
mony to the effect that he was in Washington in 1936 ?
Mrs. Rosen. Then I just didn't know it.
The Chairman. You didn't know it?
Mrs. Rosen. No.
The Chairman. Go ahead.
Mr. Stripling. In what j^ear was this that 3^011 knew tlie Bialeks ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1305
Ml'!?. Rosen. I can't answer that either. We are in a place of busi-
ness. I Avork in the sliop and I really can't say whether it was yester-
day or the day before.
Mr. SxRin.iNG. What year was it you had the shop next to the drug
store ?
Mrs. EosEX. We have the shop still there now. We bought the
shop June 1911 and we are still tliere.
Mr. Striplixg. What drug store was that you referred to?
]Mrs. Rosen. There is a drug store, the Bunker Hill Pharmacy.
^Ir. Striplin(;. Bunker Hill Pharmacy?
Mrs. Rosen. That is riglit.
]Mr. Stripling. Who owns the Bunker Hill Pharmacy ?
Mrs. Rosen. I believe Balltin.
Mr. Stripling. Who ovrned it before Mr. Balltin?
Mrs. Rosen. I will tell ^-ou, the place has changed hands a nuniDer
of times. I don't remember.
Mr. Stripling. Did Mr. Colodny ever own it ?
]\Irs. Rosen. Tliat is right.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know Mr. Colodny ?
Mrs. Rosen. Mr. Colodny is dead.
]Mr. Stripling. Did you know him?
Mrs. Rosen. Yes; I knew him. He was right next door to us.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know him very well ?
Mrs. Rosen. Not too well. Also as a neighbor in the drug store."
Mv. Stripling. Did any of your sons ever work for the Petworth
Pharmacy ?
Mrs. Rosen. Not that I can remember. I don't remember. They
were school children when they lived here. They weren't working.
They went to school, junior high school.
Mr. Stripling. "\^niere did they go to junior high school?
Mrs. Rosen. I think it was Powell Junior High School.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Robert Bialek ?
Mrs. Rosen. No.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Sam Bialek ?
Mrs. Rosen. No.
Mr. Stripling. Did you and your husband, William Rosen, take a
trip to Norfolk. Va., in 1936 ?
Mrs. Rosen. We took a trip to Norfolk. I don't remember whether
it was in 1936, but we didn't stop in Washington. We went right
through.
Mr. Stripling. But you did go to Norfolk?
Mrs. Rosen. I don't remember whether that was in 1936, but we did
take a trip to Norfolk.
Mr. Stripling. Are you familiar with your husband's handwriting ?
Mrs. Rosen. To an extent, surely.
Mr. Stripling. I have here a photographic copy of the certificate
of title for title No. 245647, District of Columbia, a Ford automobilej
1929 roadster, engine No. 2188811, registered in the name of Alger
Hiss.
On the reverse side of this document, assignment of title, signature
of the assignee is William Rosen.
Now I ask you to examine this signature, Mrs. Rosen, and tell me
whether or not
1306 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mrs. RosEX. That signature is not his.
Mr. Stripling. That is not his signature ?
Mrs. Rosen. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. The address for the William Rosen is given as
5405 Thirteenth Street, NW. Have j^ou or your husband ever resided
at that address ?
Mrs. Rosen. No.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know anyone who resided at that address'^
Mrs. Rosen. No.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have any idea why your husband refused to
testify under oath as to whether or not he had owned this particular
automobile ? .
Mrs. Rosen. I would like to consult with my counsel.
Mr. Stripling. Certainly.
(Consultation between Mrs. Rosen and ]Mr. Braverman.)
Mrs. Rosen. I don't know why.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever the financial secretary and press
director of the Northeast Branch of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that any
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. As a matter of fact, you were nominated for that
position but were defeated ; is that correct ?
Mrs. Rosen. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that any
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. McDowell. Might I inquire what the original question was ?
Mr. Stripling. I asked the witness if she were ever the financial
secretary and press director of the Northeast Bi-anch of the Commu-
nist Party for the District of Columbia.
Mr. McDowell. Thank you.
Mr. Stripling. Were you elected as director of the sustaining fund
of the Communist Party, the Northeast Branch, in February 1944?
Mrs. Rosen. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that any
answer I give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Was your 1944 registration book in the Communist
Party number 55831 ?
Mrs. Rosen. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that any
answer I give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever mentioned for the honor roll for
recruiting new members to the Comnninist Party?
Mrs. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that
any answer I ma}^ give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Is your husband a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that an}^
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Alger Hiss?
Mrs. Rosen. I do not.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Whittaker Chambers ?
Mrs. Rosen. I do not.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know an individual by the name of J. Peters ?
Mrs. Rosen. I do not.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever meet an individual by the name of
J. Peters or Alexander Stevens?
Mrs. Rosen. I never did in my life.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1307
Mr. Stripling. Have you seen his i)ictiire in the newspapers re-
cently i
Mrs. Rosen. I have seen all the pictures.
Mr. Stripling. And never met those individuals?
Mrs. Rosen. Never met them, don't know anything about them.
Mr. Stripling. Never met a Connnunist?
Mrs. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that
any answer I give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Is there any law that you are aware of which makes
membership in the Communist Party illegal?
Mrs. Rosen. I don't know.
Mr. Stripling. AMiy do you give the answer that you refuse to an-
sAver on the ground that you might incriminate yourself when asked
are you a member of the Communist Party?
ISIrs. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that any
answer I give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Your counsel is certainly familiar with title 28 of
the United States Code, which says that no person can refuse to answer
the question before a committee of Congress on the ground that he
might incriminate himself.
Now membership in the Communist Party is not incriminating.
Can you give the committee any reason why you are refusing to answer
these questions?
Your husband was here. He refused to answer these questions, but
he also refused to answer questions about this automobile.
(There was a short pause.)
The Chairman. A question has been asked of you.
Mrs. Rosen. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that any
answer I give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Then you categorically state that your husband
never had in his possession a 1929 Ford roadster ?
Mrs. Rosen. No.
Mr. Stripling. You will state he did not?
Mrs. Rosen. No ; that is right.
Mr. Stripling. Will you categorically state that your four sons
never had in their possession a 1929 Ford roadster, described •
]\Irs. Rosen. I can say the same thing for them ; they never did.
Mr. Stripling. They never did?
Mrs. Rosen. No.
Mr. Stripling. You will state absolutely that you do not know any
of the Cherner brothers ?
Mrs. Rosen. I do not.
Mr. Stripling. Joe, Leon, or Henry ?
Mrs. Rosen. I do not know any of them.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know whether your husband knows them?
Mrs. Rosen. I do not know.
Mr. Stripling. You do not know ?
Mrs. Rosen. I do not know.
Mr. Stripling. INIr. Russell, do you have anything?
Mr. Russell. Yes ; thank you.
Did you ever use the name'Rose, R-o-s-e ? Have you ever used that
name ?
Mrs. Rosen. My name is Addie.
1308 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Russell. Have you ever used the name Rose ? Were you bom
under the name Addie ?
Mrs. Rosen. My name was Udel in Jewish and we made it Addie.
Mr. Russell. Do you receive the Daily Worker under the name
Rose Baron?
Mrs. RosEX. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that
any answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. She failed to answer the other question as to
whether or not she ever used the name Rose.
Mrs. Rosen. I never used the name Rose.
The Chairman. You never used the name Rose ?
Mrs. Rosen. I never used the name Rose.
Mr. Russell. Is there anyone named Rose Baron who resides with
you?
Mrs. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that
any answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Russell. But you have never used the name Rose ?
Mrs. Rosen. I never have.
Mr. Russell. Do you receive publications luider that name?
Mrs. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that any
answer I give may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. I am getting pretty sick of this refusing to answer
questions on the ground that it might incriminate jow, when some of
the questions haven't got anything to do with whether or not this
person is a member of the Communist Party. You will have to be
more responsive.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, perhaps counsel can explain to the
committee why the witness is answering in this manner.
Mr. Braver3IAN. Are 3^011 asking me?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Bra\t:rman. I merely advised my client as to what I think are
her constitutional rights.
Mr, Stripling. Will you tell the committee why answering whether
or not she is a member of the Communist Party will incriminate her?
Mr. Braver^ian. I feel I have a right to advise my client to the best
of my ability, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. That is very true, but the comniittee has a right to
elicit from witnesses information it seeks. The law gives it that right.
Now we ask you upon what grounds do you advise the witness that
she will incriminate herself? The committee is not going to permit
Communists to continue to come before it and simply say they refuse
to answer on the ground that they might incriminate themselves when
there is no basis for it. The witness has testified that she has no
knowledge of this 1929 automobile, this transaction. She has refused
to answer whether or not she is a member of the Communist Party.
Upon what ground would she incriminate herself ?
Mr. Braverman. Mr. Stripling, I can only repeat I have a right to
advise my client to the very best of my ability.
Mr. Stripling. And that is your answer ?
Mr. Braverman. That is my answer.
Mr. Stripling. And you intend to appear here with further wit-
nesses ?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1309
Mr. Bravermax, As long as I have tlie right to practice law and
unless I am barred by this committee. I don't know on what grounds
that could be.
Mr. Stripling. I think counsel coming before this committee should
come here in good faith, and I think the committee should now consider
whether j'ou are here in good faith.
Mr. Bram^r^iax. I believe I am here in good faith.
Mv. Stripling. I ask you to advise the committee why, upon what
basis you have instructed your client to refuse to answer these ques-
tions on the ground that she might incriminate herself.
j\fr. Bravermax. Mr. Strij^ling, my relationship with my client is a
privileged relationship. I have a right to give advice to my client,
]io matter who my client is, to the best of my ability.
The best of my ability may not agree with what other peoi)le think
is correct law or bad law. I have won cases and lost cases, so evidently
sometimes the best of my ability has not been right. Sometimes I have
been right. What I have advised my client I believe is privileged,
and I have a right to advise my client as to what her constitutional
I'ights are.
Mr. Stripling. Are vou familiar with the statute which I re-
f erred to ?
Mr. Braverman. In a very vague and general way.
Mr. Stripling. Then the law is vague to you ?
Mr. Braverman, The law is not vague to me.
Mr. Stripling. You said in a very vague and general way. Are you
familiar with the statute ?
Mr. Bra\termax. Mr. Stripling, I can only state again that I have
advised my client to the very best of my ability. I do not think it is
proper to go into the question of whether or not I have given my
client correct advice.
JNIr. Stripling. I think it is very proper.
The Chairman. Mr. Counsel, will you stand and be sworn? Please
stand and be sworn, because we want to ask some questions about this
matter and it is very important and we want sworn testimony.
Mr. Braverman. Mr. Thomas, I will state as I stated before, that I
am not here as a witness. I am here as counsel.
The Chairman. From now on 3'ou are here as a witness.
Mr. Braverman. Before I appear as a witness I would like the
privilege of consulting counsel and being represented by counsel before
tliis committee.
The Chairman. Is your counsel present now ?
Mr. Braverman. No.
The Chairman. Do you refuse to be sworn ?
■ Mr. Braverman. I refuse to be sworn and appear as a witness until
I liave the right of counsel. I want counsel present to advise me.
The Chairman. I will have to insist that you be sworn now. Raise
your right hand or I will hold you in contempt.
Mr. Braverman. I am sorry, I do not want to be in contempt of this
committee, but if I am sworn as a witness I want the right to consult
counsel.
The Chairman. We want to ask you two or three simple little ques-
tions and we think the testimony shoidd be sworn testimony, so if you
will just please oblige tlie committee by raising j^our right hand
1310 COMMUNIST E\SPIONAGE
Mr, Bra\trmax. If this committee will allow me the right to have
counsel present when I am here as a witness, I will be happy to be
sworn as a witness.
Mr. Stripling. The witness has just given the committee a disser-
tation of his familiarity with the rights and privileges of witnesses.
I don't think he needs counsel.
The Chair^iax. Do you have questions you want to ask him?
Mr, Stripling. Yes.
The Chairman. I think it should be sworn testimony.
Mr. Stripling. I do, too.
Mr. Braverman. Mr. Thomas, I can repeat I have a right to be
represented by counsel, if I appear here as a witness. I have not been
subpenaed. I appear here as counsel.
The Chairman. The rights you have are the rights given you by this
committee. We will determine what rights you have and what rights
you have not got before the committee. I insist you be sworn at the
present time. So please raise your right hand.
Mr. Braverman. Mr. Thomas, I state again that I have not been
summoned before this committee. I am appearing here as counsel for
Mrs. Eosen. I want the opportunity to consult counsel, to have coun-
sel present with me, before I appear as a witness.
The Chairman. All right, I will instruct the chief investigator to
serve a summons on this man and have him back here just as quickly
as you possibly can and we will swear him in at that time.
Mr, Stripling. Today or tomorrow ?
The Chairman. Just as quickly as possible. I am sick and tired
of having witnesses and counsel come in here and use these excuses,
Mr. Stripling. Are you going to appear with Mr. Rosen tomorrow ?
Mr. Braverman. I understood he was going to appear today.
Mr. Stripling. It will be tomorrow.
Mr. Bra\^rman. I have been retained by Mr. Rosen.
Mr. Stripling. We will serve a subpena on you at the direction of
the chairman to appear tomorrow. So bring counsel with you also.
Mr. Braverman. What time tomorrow ?
Mr. Stripling, The subpena will be made out for 10 o'clock.
Mrs. Rosen, are any of your four sons to your knowledge members
of the Communist Party?
Mrs, Rosen. No ; not to my knowledge,
Mr. Stripling. Were they e^er at any time members of the Com-
munist Party?
Mrs, Rosen, Not to my knowledge,
Mr, Stripling, Were you ever at any time a member of the Com-
munist Party?
Mrs, Rosen, I refuse to answer this question on the ground that any
answer I give may tend to incriminate me,
Mr, Stripling. Don't you realize, INIrs. Rosen, it is a rather ridicu-
lous position to take to testify that your sons are not Communists —
you don't claim self-incrimination on your sons — but in your case
you do ?
Mrs. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that
any answer I give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. You don't deny that you are a member of the Com-
munist Party?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1311
Mrs. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that any
answer I give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. That is all the questions I have.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDowell. I have no qnestions, but I suggest to counsel be-
fore he appears tomorrow that he look up the oath that is required
of members of the bar in the District of Columbia.
The Chairman. Mr. Vail.
Mr. Vail. To what organizations do yau belong, Mrs. Rosen, other
than the Communist Party ^ To what organizations do you belong
other than the Comnnmist Party ?
Mrs. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that
any answer I give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Vail. Let me put it this way : To what organizations will you
admit you belong?
Mrs. Rosen. 1 refuse to answer this question on the ground that
any answer I give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Vail. Do you receive compensation of any kind from any
organization with which you are connected?
^Irs. Rosen. I receive no compensation.
Mr. Vail. How long have you been in the cleaning and dyeing
business ?
Mrs. Rosen. Since 1941.
]Mr. Vail. Are you still in it ?
Mrs. Rosen. Yes.
Mr. Vail. Operating it successfully ?
Mrs. Rosen. Well, I don't know by what 3^011 measure success.
INIr. Vail. I mean yon are making a comfortable living out of the
business.
Mrs. Rosen. We are making a living, of course.
Mr. Vail. All your sons have been through high school ?
Mrs. Rosen. Yes.
Mr. Vail. College?
Mrs. Rosen. No.
Mr. Vail. Did any of them go to college ?
Mrs. Rosen. No. The youngest one went to college at George
Washington. He graduated from Tech High School and went to
George Washington when he was 17, but he didn't stay long enough.
He enlisted, with our sanction, in the Army.
Mr. Vail. He is still in the Army?
Mrs. Rosen. No ; he went into the Army at the age of 17. We had
to go and sign up for him. He wanted to go into the Army before
he finished high school, and all my four sons were in the service and
three of them were overseas and they did their bit for their country
and did it by enlisting. We were the first ones. My oldest son right
after Pearl Harbor immediately enlisted, was in 4 years, over 4 years,
and the other boys the same. One of them got sick after basic train-
ing, was 4 months in the hospital, and they sure did their bit and we
did also our bit and the smear was given to us by irresponsible news-
papers. People like my husband and myself are not youngsters, and
I have no words to say the thing that it does to you.
Mr. Vail. Apparently they are satisfied with this form of govern-
ment if they are so willing to defend it.
1312 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mrs. BosEN. I can't say liow satisfied. I mean how good.
Mr. Vail. I see. Are you, too, dissatisfied with this form of govern-
ment ?
Mrs. Rosen. What did you say ?
Mr. Vail. Are you, too, dissatisfied with this form of government?
Are you dissatisfied with this form of government ?
Mrs. Rosen. I certainly am not.
Mr. Vail. You approve of this form of government ?
Mrs. Rosen. Why, of course.
Mr, Vail. In the event of hostilities between this Government and
the Soviet Government, on which side
Mrs. Rosen. I will defend my country. Of course, I wouldn't go
to war to fight ; I wouldn't carry no gun.
Mr. Vail. Your country. This country ?
Mrs. Rosen. Of course, my country, America, right here. I know
no other country. I was 12 or 13 when I got here. I doubt if I
was 13. I know no other place.
Mr. Vail. Well, your affection for your country would seem to me
to make it obligatory upon you to answer the questions that are put
to you by the representatives of your country, and we sit here today
as the representatives of your country asking you questions which
you refuse to answer on the ground that it would tend to incriminate
you.
Mrs. Rosen. I answer all the questions to the best of my ability.
Mr. Vail. No, I don't think you have, Mrs. Rosen. That is Very
obvious because you certainly know whether you are a member of the
Communist Party or whether you are not, and you refuse to answer
that question.
Mrs. Rosen. I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Vail. You are fully aware of the fact that the Communist Party
is an agent of Soviet Russia and its intent is to destroy this form of
government ?
Mrs. Rosen. I don't know that.
Mr. Vail. I don't get your reason. You say at one time you are
patriotic and that you have given your sons to your country and that
you favor this form of government and yet the simjile question that
will certainly not incriminate you as to whether or not you are a
member of the Communist Party you refuse to answer. It is incon-
sistent.
You see, naturally, we can only assume from such an answer, it is
the routine answer that is given by members of the Couniumist Party,
and we can only assume that you are a member of that party.
Mrs. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that any
answer I give may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Vail. No further questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Nothing further.
The Chairman. You are excused. Mrs. Rosen.^ Thank you very
much.
Mr. McDowell. I\Ir. Cliaii'inan. I would like to make :i point here.
The witness just testified that neither she nor lier husband ever owned
a 1029 Ford automobile. Her husband declined to testify on that
matter on the ground that it may tend to incriminate him. If it be
true that the Rosens never owned a 1029 automobile, under no strelch
COMMUXIST ESPIONAGE 1313
of the imagination or law or teclmicality or anytliino- else could it l)e
self-incriniinatiny: to say ''I did not own a Ford automobile."
Now I make tlie point that this witness declined to answer, refused
to ansAver, and it is a clear and obvious case of contempt of Congress.
This nian couldn't possibly have been incriminated by saying "I did not
own a Ford automobile of the vintage of 1929."'
Mr. STRirLixG. Mr. McDowell, here is what I think is the situation :
We know that the Communist Party got in touch with Rosen before
he appeared before this committee, and we know that the Communist
Party sent this hiAvyer Braverman to accompany her. We also know
that that signature which appears on this assignment of title is not
that of William Rosen.
We do know that William Rosen and his wife, Mrs. Rosen, are and
have been members of the Communist Party.
I am of the opinion that the Communist Party instructed Rosen
to answer as he did in order to divert the committee from the trail of
actuall.y finding out what happened to this car. It was a diversionary
maneuver on the part of the Connnunist Party.
Now we have Mrs. Rosen down here telling another story. We ar&
very hopeful of breaking this particular angle.
Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. ^McDowell. I am not urging a citation here, but I want to make
it clear that this man is clearly in contempt.
Mr. Stripling. No question about it.
The CiiATRMAx. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
The CiiAiRMAX. The next witness is Mr. Rosenberg.
Mr. Rosenberg, will you stand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
3'ou God?
Mr. RosEX'BERG. I do.
The CiiAiR3iAX. Sit down.
TESTIMONY OF LOUIS EOSENBEEG
Mr. Stripling. ]\lr. Rosenberg. Avill you please state your full name.
Mr. Rosenberg. Louis Rosenberg.
Mr. Stripltx^^g. When and where were you born ?
Mr. Rosex^berg. England.
Mr. Stripling. When?
Mr. Rosenberg. March 18, 1902.
Mr. Stripling. What is j^our present address?
Mr. RosEXBER(;. 4505 Argyle Terrace, NW.
Mr, Stripling. What is your occupation?
Mr. RosEx-^BERG. Druggist.
Mr. Striplixg. How long have you been engaged in the drug-
business?
Mr. RosEX'BERG. For the past 21 j^ears.
Mr. Striplixg. Do you own a drug store at the present time?
Mr. RosEX'BERG. I do.
Mr. Stripi.inc;. What is the name of it?
S040S— 48 52
1314 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Rosenberg. Petworth Pharmacy.
Mr. Stripling. Are you part owner ?
Mr. Rosenberg. Part owner.
Mr. Stripling. Who are your partners?
Mr. Rosenberg. Benjamin Bialek.
Mr. Stripling. How long have you been partners ?
Mr. Rosenberg. A little over 21 years.
Mr. Stripling. Twenty-one years?
Mr. Rosenberg. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know whether or not Mr. Benjamin Bialek
is a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Rosenberg. I would say "No."
Mr. Stripling. Are you familiar with Mr. Bialek's sons?
Mr. Rosenberg. I am.
Mr. Stripling. How many sons does he have ?
Mr. Rosenberg. Three.
Mr. Stripling. What are their names?
Mr. Rosenberg. Samuel, Robert, and Teddy.
Mr. Stripling. How old is Robert ?
Mr. Rosenberg. That I don't know.
Mr. Stripling. About how old ?
Mr. Rosenberg. He is up in the twenties, I imagine.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have some questions, Mr. Russell ?
Mr. Russell. Did you ever employ one of the Rosen boys?
Mr. Rosenberg. Yes.
Mr. Russell. Could you identify which one it was ?
Mr. Rosenberg. It was either Eugene or Lionel, but I don't know.
Tt has been so long.
Mr. Russell. What year was this?
Mr. Rosenberg. It would have to be prior to September 1930.
Mr. Russell. Do you recall to the best of your recollection who rec-
ommended that you hire one of the Rosen boys ?
Mr. Rosenberg. That I couldn't say.
Mr. Stripling. Did you say 1930 ?
Mr. Rosenberg. 1930.
Mr. RxTSSELL. I asked you to biing any records and documents you
had relative to his employment. Do you have any?
Mr. Rosenberg. I looked but I couldn't find them.
Mr. Stripling. About how old was this boy ?
Mr. Rosenberg. He was a youngster because we used him on the
bicycle delivery, so I wouldn't know exactly how old he was.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever see him in Washington after 1930 ?
. Mr. Rosenberg. I haven't seen him since he left.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know William Rosen, the father?
Mr. Rosenberg. No, sir ; I don't.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Mrs. Rosen ?
Mr. Rosenberg. I do not.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know any of the four boys other than the
one who woi'ked for you ?
Mr. Rosenberg. I remember the two, Lionel and Eugene.
Mr. Stripling. Are they twins?
Mr. Rosenb'Erg. That I don't know.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Robert Bialek very well?
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1315
Mr. RosENRERG. Xatiually, being my partner's son, I know him.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know whether or not Robert is a Com-
munist ?
Mr. Rosenberg. That I couldn't say.
Mr. Stripling. Do you have any reason to suspect that he might be
a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Rosenberg. No, I haven't.
Mr. Stripling. Did they live at 5405 Thirteenth Street NW?
]Mr. Rosenberg. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. AVere they living there in 1936 ?
Mr. Rosenberg. I don't know the exact year they were living there.
I know thev were livino- there.
Mr. Stripling. Have you talked with Mr. Bialek in the last month?
Mr. Rosenberg. Have I talked with him ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
JNIr. Rosenberg. Oh, yes, I have spoken to him.
Mr. Stripling. Have you discussed with him what has been in the
newspapers regarding the sale of this 1929 Ford automobile?
Mr. Rosenberg. I can truthfully say he doesn't know what is going
on right at the present time about this thing because he is not a well
man.
Mr. Stripling. How old is he?
Mr. Rosenberg. He is 59.
Mr. Stripling. Have you discussed it Avith Robert Bialek?
Mr. Rosenberg. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Have you discussed it with any of the Bialek boys?
Mr. Rosenberg. No.
Mr. Stripling. Have you seen pictures in the paper of Alger Hiss ?
Mr. Rosenberg. Yes ; I have seen him.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever seen Alger Hiss ?
Mr. Rosenberg. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever seen Whittaker Chambers?
Mr. Rosenberg. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you see a picture of J. Peters in the news-
papers ?
Mr. Rosenberg. That was taken in New York last week — I believe
I saw that, yes.
]Mr. Stripling. Did you ever see that individual ?
Mr. Rosenberg. No. sir.
Mr. Stripling. That is all the questions I have.
The Chairman. Mr. Vail.
Mv. Vail. No questions.
The Chairman. INIr. McDowell.
Mr. McDowell. No questions.
Mr. Stripling. You are not a member of the Communist Party?
Mv. Rosenberg. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know any of the Cherners, Joe, Leon, or
Henry ?
Mr. Rosenberg. I know Joe and Leon.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know them in 19o6 ?
Mr. Rosenberg. Oh, yes.
Mr. Stripling. Were they acquainted with Mr. Bialek?
ISIr. Rosenberg. I know they are acquainted with him; yes.
\
1316 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. They knew him in 1936?
Mr. Rosenberg. I slionkl say yes.
Mr. Stripling. That is all the questions I have.
The CiiAnniAN. If there are no furtlier questions, you are excused.
Thank you very much.
The next ^Yitness, ]Mr. Stripling?
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Farrell.
The Chairman. Mr. Farrell, raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the trutli. so help you God?
Mr. Farrell. I do.
The Chairman. Sit down.
TESTIMONY OF IRVIN AUGUSTUS FARRELL
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Farrell, please state your full name.
Mr. Farrell. Irvin Augustus Farrell.
Mr. Stripling. What is your present address?
Mr. Farrell. 4008 Twentieth Street XE.
Mr. Stripling. Where Avere you born ?
Mr. Farrell." Annapolis, April -1, 1001.
Mr. Stripling. What is your occupation?
Mr. Farrell. Pharmacist.
Mr. Stripling. How long have you been a pharmacist ?
Mr. Farrell. Registered in 1920.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Russell?
Mr. Russell. Where are you presently employed ?
Mr. Farrell. A drug store, do I have to say rlie name!' I would
rather keep the name of the drug store out.
Mr. Russell. It is the Petwortli Pharmacy?
Mv. Farrkll. That is right.
]S[r. Russell. Who owns the Petwoi'th PI un -in a c}' !'
Mr. Farrell. Mr. Rosenberg avA Mv. Bialek.
Mr. Russell. Louis R. Rosenberg^
Mr. Farrell. Yes; and Benjamin Bialek.
Mr. Ri'SSELL. Where do you presently reside?
Mr. Farrell. Same address, 4008 Twentieth Street NE.
Mr. Russell. Are you acquainted with William Rosen?
Mr. Farrell. I have been there quite often, I guess, since 1935 or
1936.
Mr. Russell. Are you acquainted with Addie Rosen ?
Mr. Farrell. If that is his wife's first name ; yes.
Mr. Russell. Did you say you dealt with them in 1935 ?
Mr. Farrell. Yes ; I thiiik it was 1935 and 1936.
Mr. Russell. 1935 and 1936?
Mr. Stripling. Not 1945 or 1946 ?
Mr. Farrell. Long before that. I think it was 1935. I can find
out because I had a coat altered there when I left Peoples Drug Store
and I can remember when I left. I think it was 1935.
Mr. Russell. Where was their cleaning shop located?
Mr. Farrell. 2012 or 2020 Bunker Hill Road, right oif Twentieth
and Bunker Hill. Maybe it was 2100. I lived about a block and a
half from there.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1317
]Mr. Russell. Were you employed at the Petworth Pharmacy when
one of the Rosen boys was employed there ?
Mr. Farrell. No ; that was before my time.
Mr. Russell. Have you ever had any conversations with the Rosens
regarding the Bialeks?
Mr, Farrell. Quite frequently, yes ; a dozen times at least over a
period of years.
Mr. Russell. Could you tell the committee the nature of those con-
versations?
Mr. Farrell. Well, I don't know how the conversations come out
about me working at Petworth, but I got out of the service in 1944 —
I would say it was in 1945, and they said we had been friends of
theirs for years and they named several things and all. They men-
tioned about one of the sons. Sam, was in the Pacific quite a long
time, which he thought was terrible, and another son, Bobby, I think
he Avas in the Battle of the Bulge, and just conversation in the family
imit, that is all.
She, later on after Mr. Bialek was taken sick, she inquired quite
often about his health and one particular time she said — the first I
knew he had a nurse she told me he was quite sick and had a day and
night nurse. I asked up at the store if it was true.
Then other times I would go in there and Mr. Rosen would ask
how is Ben, his nickname. He wasn't very talkative to me.
Several different times she has talked about them and how long
they have been friends, and she knew the boys — just natural family
;gossip.
Mr. Russell. Can you recall at this time when you left the employ
-of Peoples Drug Store ?
Mr. Farrell. Xo, I can't ; but I can call up and find o'.it. The rea-
son I recall that is I liad a coat with the sleeves too short from shrink-
age and she let out tlie sleeves for me. That was right after I left
People's.
Mr. Strii'Lixo. Mrs. Rosen ?
Mr. Farrell. Yes; she does alterations for her husband. They
Lave a cleaning place.
The CrTAiR:\L\x. Right after you left People's?
Mr. Farrell. Yes, sir. You can call and ask for Mr, C. B. Aldrich
fit People's. They have a card index.
Mr. Russell. As far as you know did anyone else ever oj)erate the
cleaning shop?
Mr. Farrell. Not since I have been dealing there; no, sir,
Mr. Striplixo. How long have you been working at Bialeks?
Mr. Farrell. I worked for them another year. I can't verify until
we hoar from People's, because I left People's in the early summer
mouths and between that aud the end o'f that year I had four jobs
and lost each one because the stores closed. I ended up with Pet-
woi'th Pharmacy.
Mr. Strirlixo. How long liave you been with Petvrorth ?
Mr. Farrell. I was 18 months there and went to Maxwell & Tenny-
son's and went in the war and came back with them January 1, 1945.
Mr. Stripltxg. You were with them 18 months before you went in
the service? ■
Mr. Farrell. Yes ; maybe a little longer.
Mr. Russell. Are vou married?
1318 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Farrell. I have been married 28 years October 30.
Mr. Russell. Is your wife familiar with the Rosens?
Mr. Farrell. Yes; just the same conversation. We take clothes
in there and all. She has had the same conversation. Only longer
because I couldn't stay in there any longer.
Mr. Russell. From the nature of the conversations which j^ou have
had with the Rosens regarding the Bialeks, would you say that those
conversations indicated that the Bialeks and the Rosens were well
acquainted ?
Mr. Farrell. They would have to be from the things that ^vere
brought up, and living that far apart. That is quite a ciistance. Bia-
leks live on Eigliteenth Street NW., Shepherd Street, apartment house
right back of the store, so that is quite a distance, especially if jon
don't have a car to dri'^e cross-town. I don't know if they have or
not. The sons do, or did. I have never seen him drive a car out-
side of the truck. I see her quite often. Used to deal with the Davis
grocer^" store and she would come in there. She always would bring
up the conversation and asked how ]Mr. B. was.
Mr. Russell. What is the name of the grocery store ?
Mr. Farrell. Davis. He sold out.
Mr. Russell. Did Davis operate the store in 1935 or 1936?
]Mr. Farrell. I would sa}' ves. Another party had it and couldn't
make a go and sold it to Mr. Davis. He was the manager of it.
Mr. RuSvSELL. Do you know any other people who live in the vicinity
of your address who lived at the same address in 1936 ?
Mr. Farrell. Oh, yes. Davis lives a block awav from the Rosens.
They have been living there before that.
Mr. Russell. Do you know their first name ?
Mr. Farrell. Paul Davis. He was in business there in that block,
so he would know him quite well. The bakerj^ people, I don't know
their name. They are French or Swiss. They have been there easily
since 1935. Bunker Hill Hardware Store has been there. The other
stores have all changed hands intermittently since several times.
Mr. Stripling. We called Peoples.
Mr. Farrell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. And they are looking that record up. I wish you
would also check with your wife and see if you can recall when you
first took cleaning to William Rosen.
Mr. Farrell. That would be the first time I Avould remember, and
I can go by that date. It would be the week after that.
Mr. Stripling. The week after you left Peoples?
Mr. Farrell. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. You try to find out when 3^011 left Peoples and they
will check on it also.
Mr. Farrell. You want me to call ?
Mr. Stripling. Just call Mr. Wlieeler.
Mr. McDowell. That is all, Mr. Farrell. You are excused.
(The witness was excused.)
The Chairman. Who is the next witness?
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Henry Cherner.
The Chairman. Mr. Cherner, will you stand, j^lease ?
Raise your right hand.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1319
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to oive will be
the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Cherner. I do.
Mr. Russell. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Cherner appeared by virtue of a
telephone call I made to him yesterday. We had previously served
a subpena on him. In view of the nature of the testimony, I think
the record should show he has been served with a subpena calling for
his appearance today.
The Chairman. Without objection, it is so ordered.
(Mr. Eussell serves subpena upon Mr. Cherner.)
TESTIMONY OF HENRY CHERNER
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Cherner, you have previously appeared before
this committee, have you not ?
Mr. Cherner. That is right.
Mr. Stripling. The committee is investigating the assignment or
the transfer or the sale of a 1929 Ford roadster which was registered
in the name of Alger Hiss. In 1936 Mr. Hiss transfered the title to
tlie Cherner Motor Co., address 1781 Florida Avenue NW., on the
23d day of July 1936.
On that same date this car was transferred or sold to one William
Rosen, whose address was given as 5405 Thirteenth Street NW.
NoAv, this particular assignment or transfer is very pertinent to
this committee's investigation at this time. All questions which will
be asked you this morning regarding this transfer are pertinent ques-
tions, Anj^ erroneous or false statements made in reply to these ques-
tions will be considered by the committee to be perjury and would be
cited as perjury. Any refusal to answer any of these questions will
be considered by the committee to constitute contempt unless you claim
proper privilege.
Do 370U have a statement you want to make?
Mr. Cherner. No ; I don't.
Mr. Striplin(;. Mr. Cherner, have you ever been a member of the
Communist Party ?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. When did you first come to the United States?
Mr. Cherner. Christmas eve, 1911.
Mr. Stripling. 1911; where did 3'ou go when 3^ou first came here?
Mr. Chp:rner. You mean where I lived?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Cherner. 330 V Street NW.
Mr. Stripling. What port of entry did you arrive at in the United
States?
Mr. Cherner. Ellis Island, I guess,
Mr. Stripling. What year ?
Mr. Cherner. 1911.
Mr. Stripling. 1911?
Mr. Cherner. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Did you come from Ellis Island direct to Wash-
ington ?
Mr. Cherner. Right here to Washington. My father was here a
year before we got here.
1320 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Now, I show you a photograpliic copy of the assign-
ment of title in question and show you the name, signature, oi William
Kosen, and ask you if that is your handwriting.
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. You did not write that ?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir ; absolutely didn't.
Mr. Stripling. Did you write the 5405 Thirteenth Street NW. ?
Mr. Cherner. No ; I don't think I even had anything to do with
this sale. If I did, I don't remember.
Mr. Stripling. Write William Rosen there for me.
(Mr. Cherner writes on pad.)
Mr. Stripling. Write 5405 Thirteenth Street.
(Mr. Cherner writes on pad.)
Mr. Cherner. One reason I know it wouldn't be me is I never put
a "th" to any number.
Mr. Stripling. That 5405 certainly looks like your handwriting.
Look at this 5 and look at that 5. You understand we are trying to
determine what happened to this car, and we are not trying to impli-
cate you in any way. We want to know whether or not you had any-
thing to do with this.
You have just written 5405, and that 5405 certainly looks like the
one here, particularly the 5 ; it is almost identical.
Mr. Cherner. I will tell you what. I have had people sign titles
and then I would fill the address in. I have done that many a time.
Whether I did it in this particular case, I wouldn't say.
Mr. Stripling. Why would you fill the address in ?
Mr. Cherner. When we sell an automobile, we get them to just sign
the title — just the name. We take care of the rest of it. I don't mean
I particularly would do it, but anybody in the organization would
do it.
Mr. Stripling. Have you taken samples of this address?
Mr. Russell. From him ? Yes.
Mr. Cherner. Was that my writing?
Mr. Russell. The handwriting experts are pretty certain you are
the one who wrote the name William Rosen.
Mr. Cherner. I wrote the name William Rosen ?
Mr. Russell. Yes.
Mr. Cherner. I know better than that. I know Mr. Gertler too
well. He would never, never notarize a paper that any of us signed
I know that.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Gertler?
Mr. Cherner. He is the notary. You mean this looks like this?
Mr. Stripling. I am talking about the 5405.
Mr. Cherner. That is possible, but I don't remember doing that.
I don't think I did that. The mere fact that he has got "13th" would
make me believe I didn't do that.
Mr. Stripling. You have no recollection of that transaction at all?
Mr. Cherner. No; I don't. If I would see this man, then maybe
I could give you more light on it. Have you got a picture of him? I
don't know the man ; not by name, I don't. Do you have a picture of
him?
Mr. Stripling. Do you know William Rosen, who resides at — what
is his present address ?
COMMUXIST ESPIONAGE 1321
Mr. KussELi'. 2008 Shepherd Street NE.
Mr. Stripling. Owns the Bunker Hill Valet Shop.
Mr. Cherxer. I don't knovr him. The last time I was here I said
the name sounded familiar. If I could see him, it is possible I know
him. A lot of people I know but don't know their names. You know
how that is in business. Thousands of people.
Mr. Stripling. AVrite tliis William Eosen and the address for me
three times, Mr. Cherner.
(j\Ir. Cherner writes on pad.)
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Russell will ask you some questions, while the
members are examining this sample.
Mr. EussELL. Do you ever recall an individual by the name of
Posner being employed by tlie Cherner Motor Co. ?
Mr. Cherner. Posner^ What was his capacity, a salesman?
Mr. EussELL. I don't know whether he was a salesman or what
he was.
^Ir. Cherner. Posner, I don't know.
Mr. Russell. Do you recall anybody having a similar-sounding
name ?
Mr. Cherner. No; wait a minute. Puzrin.
Mr. Russell. Do you know him (
Mr. Cherner. I know him well.
Mr. Russell. In what capacity was he employed?
Mr. Cherner. He was a mechanic in the shop.
]Mr. Russell. Do you know how to spell that ?
Mr. Cherner. Puzrin. P-u-z-r-i-n.
Mr. Russell. He was a mechanic in the shop?
Mr. Cherner. Yes.
Mr. Russell. Xot a salesman?
Mr. Cherner. No.
iVlr. Russell. Did your brother Joe ever tell you he had been a
member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Cherner. Never told me.
Mr. Russell. Never discussed Communist Party affairs in your
presence ?
Mr. Cherner. In m.j presence ?
Mr. Russell. Yes.
Mr. Cherner. No.
Mv. Russell. Did he ever ask you to sign a certificate of title that
you can recall ?
Mr. Cherner. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Cherner, you are an official of the Cherner
Motor Co., aren't 5^ou?
Mr. Cherner. No ; I am not. I am with the Cherner-Brewer Auto
Sales.
Mr. Stripling. You were at that time ?
Mr. Cherner. In 1936?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Cherner. I wasn't an official.
Mr. Stripling. You were working there ?
Mr. Cherner. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Can you tell this committee how a transaction like
this could have occurred with no record there ? Here the handwriting
1322 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
people come along- and say they are willing to state that Henry Cherner
wrote William Rosen and the address. We are in a bad situation
liere.
Mr. Cherner. That is the biggest surprise I think I ever got in
Jiny life to tell me that. Believe me, gentlemen, that is no kidding.
What benefit would that be to me ?
Mr. Stripling. We don't know whether you were transacting a
business deal or what the circumstances are. That is what we want
to know.
Mr, Cherner. Does the Cherner Motor Co. have the record of this
sale?
Mr. Stripling. No ; they have got all records but no record of this
sale.
Mr. Cherner. They don't have the record of this sale?
Mr. Stripling. No i-ecord of this sale.
Mr. Cherner. That is something.
Mr. Stripling. They have got slips out there, all the sales slips loi
that day, the 23d of July.
Mr. Cherner. Usually, thej- have the name of the salesman that
bought or sold the car.
Mr. Stripling. I know it.
Mr. Cherner. I mean, you got me as I wrote the name, too.
Mr. Stripling. The handwriting people they are almost positive,
almost positive, that 3'ou wrote William Rosen.
Mr. Cherner. Never signed a title since I have been working for
Cherner JNIotor Co., and that is 11 years. It would be foolish for me
to do it. What benefit would that be to me? That is why I can't
understand it.
Mr. Stripling. Can you tell me why Cherner Motor Co. wouldn't
record the sale of this car ?
Mr. Cherner. 19.3G. I came to work there late in 1935. I wouldn't
have had that much sense at that time. I didn't know enough about
the business.
The Chairman. How old were you then ?
Mr. Cherner. Thirty years old. You see, I went to work for Joe
May 13, 1935, and this happened when, in 1936?
Mr. Stripling. July 23, 1936.
Mr. Cherner. A little over a year.
Mr. Stripling. You know Robert Bialek?
Mr. Cherner. Robert Bialek?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Cherner. I know his brother, Benjamin. I think I know the
other, too.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know his father, Benjamin Bialek?
Mr. Cherner. Yes ; I know him well.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever at their home at 5405 Thirteenth
Street?
Mr. Cherner. No.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know they lived there ?
Mr. Cherner. That is the one that has the drug store. Riverside
Pharmacy?
Mr. Stripling. Petworth.
Mr. Cherner. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. How long have you known them ?
COMMU^'IST ESPIONAGE 1323
Mr. CiiERXER. I guess I have kiiow him for 25 years.
Mv. Stripling. You knew him in 1936 ?
Mr. CiiERXER. Did I know him in 1936?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
^Ir. CiiERXER. Yes ; I knew him then.
INIr. Stripling. Did you ever sell him a car, any of the Bialek
brothers, Benjamin Bialek, the father?
Mr. CiiERXER. I believe — I know I waited on his brother. I don't
remember whether I sold him a car or not.
Mr. Striplixg. When was that ?
Mr. CiiERXER. It must have been around that year.
Mr. Stripling. 1936?
Mr. Cherner. I would imagine that. It would be between 1936 and
1938, I believe. Whether I sold him or not, I don't remember; but I
do remember talking to him.
Mr. Stripling. Talking to him ?
Mr. Ciierx'er. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Could it be that the car was this 1929 roadster?
Mr. Cherner. I couldn't remember that far back. That is 12 years
ago.
Mr. Stripling. But this is very important and very important to
you.
Mr. Ciierxer. Listen, if I could be of any help, believe me I would
love to be.
Mr. Striplixg. Do vou recall selling a car?
]Mr. Cherner. No; I recall him coming in the place, one of the
Bialeks. Whether he bought a car or not, I don't remember.
Mr. Striplix'g. It wasn't the father, wasn't Benjamin?
Mr. Cherner. No.
Mr. Stripling. One of the boys ?
Mr. Ciierxer. I am talking about Benjamin's brother. I have never
met any of his children. The one that runs the drug store; is that
Benjamin?
Mr. Stripling. Benjamin.
Mr. Cherner. I know him and a brother who had a grocery store.
Mr. Stripling. And Benjamin talked to you about a car ?
Mr. Cherner. His brother.
Mr. Stripling. "\Yliat is his name?
Mr. Cherner. I don't remember his first name.
Mr. Striplix-^g. What does he do?
Mr. Ciierxer. He had a grocery store on Twenty-sixth and Virginia
Avenue at that time.
Mr. Stripling. That was the one you sold the car to ?
Mr. Cherx^er. I didn't sell a car to him. He talked to me. Wliether
he bought it or not, I don't know. I know I talked to him about an
automobile. I know he was in the place, but I doubt very seriously
wliether I sold him the car.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know in 1936 an individual by the name of
Peters ?
Mr. Cherner. Peters, no.
Mr. Striplixg. Or an individual who went under the name of Alex-
ander Stevens?
Mr. Cherner. No.
1324 COMMUXJST ESPIONAGE
Mr. STKirmNG. Or did you know an individual b}- the name of Isir
dore Boorstein?
Mr. Cherner. Isidore Boorstein?
Mr. Stripling. Isidore Boorstein ?
Mr. Cherner. No.
Mr. Stripling. Did you know a fellow known only to vou as Peters
in 1936?
Mr. Cherner. No.
Mr. Stripling. Did you see a picture in the newspaper recently of
J. Peters when he appeared in New York?
Mr. Cherner. No ; didn't see it.
Mr. Stripling. You positively state you did not sign the name
William Rosen?
Mr. Cherner. I swear my life on it. I didn't do that.
The Chairman. Would there have been another man in the shop
at that time who might have signed the name William Rosen and made
the writing look like yours?
Mr. Cherner. I don't think so. As long as I have been with Cherner
Motor Co., they are very particular on that title business. We have
held titles sometimes a week or 2 weeks for people to come in and sign.
I know they wouldnt' do that.
The Chairman. They weren't very particular about this particular
case because they have no record of it.
Mr. Cherner. That is the surprising point. I can't understand
that. Believe me, I can't, not Cherner Motor Co. They were pretty
exact on everything.
Mr. Russell. These are the slips for July 23. None of them re-
flects the sale of a 1929 Ford, Tudor or roadster.
Mr. Cherner. I can't understand it. Have they got my name on
them ? That was one of the biggest years they had.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Cherner, can you give the committee any sug-
gestions about where we can go to look?
Mr. Cherner. What did the Cherner Motor Co. say about not hav-
ing records of that deal ? That is the puzzling part. I didn't know
that until now. The last time I was here I didn't know they didn't
have a record.
Mr. Stripling. No record.
Mr. Cherner. No record at all. If it was aiwthing I knew, God
knows I would be the first one to help on that. You say you have some
handwriting experts here ?
Mr. Stripling. They are Government
Mr. Cherner. I wish you would have one of the handwriting
analysts, or whatever you call them — when I filled out my citizenship
papers, when you are asked why you want to become a citizen, I wrote
it dow^n there with emphasis because I thought it was the most wonder-
ful country in the world, and I meant it that way. I would be the last
person in the world to help a Communist or anybody.
The Chairman. What year was that?
Mr. Cherner. I have my citizenship papers here.
Mr. Stripling. Let's see them.
You became a citizen in 1936?
Mr. Cherner. That is right. You may ask me a question. I had
better answer it first. I was 31 when I became a citizen, but my father
C(»IMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1325
took liis first papers and he died in 1915. I was always under the
impi'ession that I was a citizen because I knew he had taken out the
papers, but I didn't know he had to take out the second papers. That
is Avhat I was told, and I immediately applied.
The CiiAiKMAx. Mr. Cherner, since you were a witness before this
committee the first time, you have undoubtedly discussed this case
with numerous people.
Mr. CiiERNER. Well, a few people; yes.
The Chairman. Who were some of the people you discussed the
case with?
Mr. Cherxer. Well, maybe Mr. Courtney that works for us. Of
course, Mr. Brewer, who was here at the time. He and I talked about
it. A couple of other people, I think my brother was one of them.
I didn't tell them what we talked about, just that I was here.
The Chairman. It came out in the newspapers that you were here.
Mr. Cherner. That is right.
The Chairman. Then, who were the other people you discussed it
with?
Mr. Cherner. There was, I guess, 15 or 20 people that told me about
it, that they saw my name in the paper and that they heard it on the
radio, but I didn't go into details with an}^ of them. I might have
told them they asked me a few questions. I believe I did tell I had to
write the name "William Kosen" about 20 times.
The Chairman. Did anybody come from Baltimore to speak to you
about the case?
Mr. Cherner. Baltimore ; no, sir.
The Chairman. Did anybody come from New York to speak to you
about the case?
Mr. Cherner. No.
The Chairman. Just local people?
Mr. Cherner. Just friends of mine. It was all just casual; Avasn't
anything that anybody was sent to question me, or anything like that.
The Chairman. Everyone who spoke to you was a friend of yours ?
Mr. Cherner. A friend, that is right.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Cherner, could we borrow these naturalization
papers for 2 i hours ?
Mr. Cherner. Yes ; you can mail them back to me, if you will.
Mr. Stripling. Oh, yes.
Mr. Cherner. That is all right.
Mr. Stripling. Off the record.
(Discussion was had outside the record.)
Mr. Cherner. This thing here,^« I don't understand the whole thing.
Why they wouldn't have the records. You have got Mensh's name on
here and Gertler's name on here twice.
Mr. Stripling. We got them all up here, and they don't remember
a thing.
Mr. Cherner. How about the application of William Eosen?
Did he apply for a title?
Mr. Appell. That is the application, the bottom half.
Mr. Cherner. Did he get a title?
Mr. Appell. Yes; on the right-hand side of this paper it shows
Mr. Cherner. This is just an application for title.
«« Photostatic copy of tide to 1929 Ford car, previously introduced into testimony.
1326 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Appell. This here shows he was issued title 456802 and this
title shall be delivered to the Cherner ]Motor Co. New title was
delivered to Cherner Motor Co.
Mr. Cherner. Do they have this title in William Rosen's name?'
Mr. Appell. No ; they don't keep titles until the action on the car
is consummated.
Mr. Cpierner. Does the Cherner Motor Co. have a record of it ?
Mr. Appell. No. Do you know at that time who picked up titles for
Cherner Motor Co. ?
Mr. Cherner. Edwards picks up for all these dealers.
Mr. Appell. Mr. Stripling, they have here in Washington a firm
that renders a service to most automobile dealers by picking up from
the Motor Vehicle Division all titles for the respective companies. It
was my understanding Mr. Edwards was not doing it for Cherner,
Mr. Cherner. He wasn't at that time ?
Mr. Appell. That was my understanding.
Mr. Strh'ling. There is no record of any title in the District of
Columbia for this car other than that it was issued to Alger Hiss and
none for William Eosen.
Mr. Appell. That is right.
Mr. Cherner. I can't understand it. The whole thing is gettin'g
dee])er and deeper. I see this belonged to Alger Hiss.
The CiiAiRMx\N. What was that ?
Mr. Cherner. I just saw this belonged to Alger Hiss. When you
walk in a place like this, you are a little nervous. Now, I am beginning
to get my bearings and beginning to see the whole thing.
Mr. Appell. Did the Cherner Motor Co. back in those days hold
their own chattel paper for small amounts?
Mr. Cherner. Something like that; yes. They don't even have a
note signed, or anything?
Mr. Appell, They have no records.
Mr. Cherner. That is the only thing. That is the m-ystery of the
vrhole thing, especially against Cherner Motor Co. I would never
have believed it.
Mr. Strh'ling. You and your brothers can do uiore to clear that
up than we can. We can't go back and get all your bank records and
everything. We can do it, but there is no reason wliy we should do it.
The Cherner Motor Co. is under a very peculiar stigma here. Here
is a transaction with no records. It turns out to be a phoney. No
William Rosen living at this address. You people owe it to your
(xovernment to look through everything such as insurance, canceled
checks, everything, and come to the committee and say, "Here it is."
Things like this just don't happen every day, and there are lots of
people whose names are on this such as Mensh, all officials of the
Cherner Motor Co. now.
Mr. Cherner. I don't think Mensh could tell you much. Have you
had Gertler here?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Cherner. In other words, nobody knows who this William
Rosen is?
Mr. Stripling. That is right. We found a William Rosen all
I'ight, and he never lived at the address there. He is a Communist,
but that is not his signature, and he knows Cherner. He. has done
business with Cherner Motor Co., but that is not his signature.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1327
Mr. CuKKXEK. You asked me about this man Puzrin. He doesn't
den}^ that he is a Connnuuist. He has been one ever since I have known
]iim.
Mr. McDowell. Who?
Mr. CiiERXER. Nathan Puzrin. He doesn't deny it. As far as he is
concerned. There is a man that coukl have probably been as rich as
Joe right now. It is just his ideas. That is Avhat he believes, and
(here isn't anythino- you can do about it.
Mr. liussELL. He was employed as a inechanic and not as a salesman ?
The CiLUKMAx. Was he there at that time?
Mr. Russell. Yes.
Mr. CiiERX^ER. In lOoC). I thiid^ he was, but he was a mechanic.
Mr. Striplixg. Could he have had anythino; to do with this?
Mr. Cherner. No; I doubt it very seriously.
Mr. Striplixg. Here is certificate of examination and inspection,
and see if there is anything on there that would enlighten you.
Mr. CiiERXER. Did you get in touch with Edward Barton?
Mr. Striplixg. We got in touch with him.
Mr. CnERXER. This is something here, no record or nothing about
all this.
Mr. Wheeler. Does the Cherner Motor Co. handle insurance ?
Mr. Cherxer. Their own insurance ?
Mr. Wheeler. Or recommend somebody?
Mr. Cherxer. They have an insurance agent. They just call it in.
Mr. Wheeler. Who is it ?
Mr. Cherxer. At the time I was there they had Leroy Marks in the
Colorado Building. The phone number is National' 0601. Either
that or Young & Simon ; one of the two.
Mr. Striplixg. Mr. Cherner, I notice here on the edge of this appli-
cation for title it says, "Title No. 456802. This title shall be delivered
to Cherner Motor Co."'
In other words, this application was made for a title by William
Rosen on this date. The Cherner Motor Co. held a $25 chattel against
it. So the man picked it up, took it down to the title office, and they
gave it a number to be delivered to the Cherner Motor Co. The
Cherner INIotor Co., we will assume, got the title. Then, what hap-
pened ? Wouldn't there be a record there ?
Mr. Cherxer. Yes, absolutely ; there should be a record of this lien
and everything else. Let's see this top title here.
How about the Traffic Bureau. They have this number there.
They must have a record of this number', don't they, 456802? They
could probably tell you who this was issued to. Haven't they?
Mr. Appell. The title was issued to William Rosen, delivered to
Cherner Motor Co. for Cherner to hold until Rosen paid up the chattel.
Mr. Cherxer. You said no title.
Mr. Striplixg. No title of registration.
Mr. Cherxer. No tags issued for the car?
Mr. Striplixg. That is right.
Well, will you check with your brothers ?
Mr. Cherxer. I will be glad to.
Mr. Striplixg. You have seen these documents.
Mr. Cherxer. I have seen all that stuff. The first time I was here
I didn't know that.
1328 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. The date is July 23, 1936. The name is William
"Rosen, 5405 Thirte ith Street.
Mr. CiiERNER. We got Gertler's name on there ; we got Barton ; wo
got Harry Cohen.
Mr. Stripling. S. A. Mensh?
Mr. CiiERNER. Yes. You have got Harry Cohen on that inspection
sheet; haven't you?
Mr. Stripling. Yes; Harry Cohen; title No. 458602.
Mr. Cherner. 458602.
Mr. Stripling. That was the new title delivered to the Cherner
Motor Co.
The Chairman. If you will look that up, it will not only be helping
the committee but it will help the Cherner Motor Co. and will help you,
too.
Mr. Cherner. Yes ; I don't get it. If you people would know the
circumstances we came to this country — we were there in the worst
time under the Czar. Good God, anybody that could have any love
for that country with what our people went through, I don't know. I
know some Jewish people are Communists, but I don't think they ever
were in Russia — that is, at the same time we were.
My same brother Joe, if he hadn't left that town, they would have
killed him. That is one of the reasons we came here. We were kids.
He pushed a kid into a horse. You know^ how you are when you are
10 or 11 years old. The horse kicked this kid, and the kid was the son
of a sort of mayor in the town, and that is all that had to happen. If
they had got hold of Joe, they would have just hanged him or I
don't know what.
The Chairman. Was that after the Bolsheviks took over?
Mr. Cherner. That was before, during the Czar's.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Cherner. We left town that same day, went right into Ger-
many, and took the boat in Germany. That is one of the main reasons
we left for this country. I don't see how anybody in our family could
have any love for it.
The Chairman. Mr. Vail, do you have any questions ?
Mr. Vail. No questions.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell ?
Mr. McDowell. No.
The Chairman. Thank you very much. If you will get that in-
formation and call Mr. Stripling we will appreciate it.
Mr. Cherner. All right.
The Chairman. All right.
The Chairman. Thank you very much. You are excused.
(Mr. Cherner was excused.)
The Chairman. The hearing is adjourned. •
(Whereupon, at 1 p. m., the subcommittee adjourned.)
4
HEARINCtS REGARDmrT COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 9, 1948
United States House of Representatives,
Special Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington., D. C .
executi^t: session *'
The special subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:30 a. m., in
room 226, Old House Office Building, Hon. J. Parnell Thomas (chair-
man) presiding.
Committee members present : Representative J. Parnell Thomas
(chairman), John McDowell, and Riclnrd B. Vail.
Staflf members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator;
Donald T. Appell, AVilliam A. Wheeler, investigators; and A. S.
Poore, editor, to the committee.
The Chairman. The meeting will come to order.
The record will show that a subcommittee is sitting, consisting of
Mr. McDowell, Mr. Vail, and Mr. Thomas ; a quorum is present.
The first witness will be Mr. Rosen. Will you stand, please, Mr,
Rosen ?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God ?
Mr. Rosen. I do.
The Chairman. Sit down.
Mr. Stripling, your witness.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM ROSEN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,
MAURICE BRAVERMAN
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Rosen, would you state your full name?
Mr. Rosen. William Rosen,
The Chairman, You will have to speak louder,
Mr. Rosen. William Rosen.
Mr. Stripling. You are here in response to a subpena which was
served upon you?
Mr. Rosen, Yes, sir,
Mr, Stripling, The day before yesterday ; is that correct ?
Mr, Rosen, Yes, sir,
Mr, Stripling, You are accompanied by counsel ?
Mr, Rosen. Yes, sir,
" Testimony taken in executive session and made public with this printing.
80408—48 53 1329
1330 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Will counsel identify himself for the record?
Mr. Bra\^rman. Maurice Braverman, from Baltimore, Md., 15
South Gay Street, Baltimore, Md. I am a member of the bar of the
city of Baltimore, the State of Maryland.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Rosen, you testified before this committee on
August 26 ; is that correct ?
Mr. EosEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Rosen, the committee is still investigating the
purchase or transfer of a 1929 Ford automobile. This transfer or
disposition of this car is now very pertinent to the committee's inquiry.
All questions Avhich will be asked you concerning this automobile will
be pertinent. You will be expected to answer them. Any false
answers will be considered by the committee to be perjury.
Did you ever buy a 1929 Ford automobile?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer the question on the grounds that my
answer I give — any answer I may give may incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Now, Mr. Rosen, yesterday
The Chairman. I cannot hear the witness.
Mr. Stripling. Will you speak louder, please.
The Chairman. Will you repeat that, please.
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that any
answer I might give to the question may incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Yesterday, Mr. Rosen, your Avife w^as subpenaed
before the committee. SJie answered, I believe, all questions except
those questions having to do with whether or not she was a member
of the Communist Party, or whether or not you were a member of the
Communist Party, or whether or not she had been active as an organizer
or in various capacities witli the Communist Party. She testified
that you had never bought a 1929 Ford automobile.
Now, 3^011 come in today and you say that you refuse to answer this
question on the grounds that you might incriminate yourself. Would
you explain to the committee why you feel that you might incriminate
yourself ?
(Mr. Rosen confers with Mr. Braverman.)
INIr. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the grounds that
any answer may incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. Now, Mr. Rosen, these are not privileged questions
which we are asking. This is a committee of Congress. We are trying
to get the facts regarding a very important matter. If you never did
own a 1929 Ford automobile, it will be very helpful to the committee
if you would say so. That cannot possibly incriminate you if you did
not own the automobile.
Now, your wife has testified that you did not. The committee is not
trying to involve you in any way. All we want are the facts.
The Chairman. We did not get the answer to that question. You
asked a question, Mr. Stripling.
Let the record show that the witness is discussing the matter with
counsel.
Mr. Braverman. Excuse me a minute, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
(Mr. Rosen confers with Mr. Braverman.)
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer the question on the grounds that I
may incriminate myself.
I
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1331
The Chairman. Mr. Rosen, what was the question ?
Mr. Rosen. The question was whether I owned a 1929 car, Ford
car.
The Chairman. 1929 Ford car.
Mr. Rosen. I think it was a 1929
The Chairman. How will that incriminate you to answer that ques-
tion ? Do you own an automobile today ?
Mr. Rosen. No, sir.
The Chairman. You do not own an automobile today?
Mr. Rosen. Xo, sir.
The Chairman. Well, now, you mentioned that all right. That
does not incriminate you.
Mr. Rosen. No.
The Chairman. But this 1929 car, you refuse to answer whether
3^ou owned that car or not. How would it incriminate you?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer.
The Chairman. HaA-e you ever owned an automobile?
Mr. Rosen. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Wlien did you own an automobile?
Mr. Rosen. I owned an automobile since 1923.
The Chairman. You owned an automobile since 1923. All right.
Now, in 1923 what kind of a car did you have?
Mr. Rosen. A Dodge.
The Chairman. A Dodge. That is a good car, too.
Mr. Rosen, It used to be.
The Chairman. 1924, what kind of a car did you have ?
Mr. Rosen. Same car.
The Chairman. Same car. In 1936 what kind of a car did you
have ?
Mr. Rosen. I think it was a Pontiac.
The Chairman. Yes. Did you have a Ford at any time ?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer that on the ground that it
The Chairman. You admit all the other cars and you won't admit
a Ford?
Mr. Rosen. That is right.
The Chairman. It is very obvious that you had a Ford and know
all about it. You are an American citizen?
Mr. Rosen. I sure am.
The Chairman. And you want to help this Government ?
Mr. Rosen. I sure do.
I'he Chairman. And you want to fight communism ?
Mr. Rosen. I sure do.
The Chairman. And you want to fight any nation that is operating
a fifth column in this country ?
Mv. Rosen. I am not interested
The Chairman. All right. You can help this Government and this
committee, and if you can help in that fight — if you will be frank in
your answers that is all we Avant.
Now, did you own a 1929 Ford car ?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it may in-
criminate me.
The CiTAiRMAN. Well, it leaves me with the impression that you
do not want to help this Government.
Mr. Rosen. I do.
1332 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
The Chairman. You want to help this Government ?
Mr. Rosen. Yes, sir ; I do.
The Chairman. You want to help the Congress of the United
States, which is the representative of the people ?
Mr. Rosen. I sure do.
The Chairman. I am going to ask you again if you want to help
the representatives of the people, the Congress of the United States.
The question is, Did you ever own a 1929 Ford car ?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question.
The Chairman. Well, it is very obvious what sort of help you want
to give to this country. Go ahead, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Rosen, I have here a photographic copy of an
application for title, dated July 23, 1936, title No. 245647, District of
Columbia, Director of Vehicles and Traffic. On the reverse side of
this assignment of title, inider the heading "Purchaser's application
for new certificate of title," there is the signature William Rosen,
which appears with the residence address of 5405 Thirteenth Street
NW. I ask you to examine this signature of William Rosen and tell
the committee whether or not tliat is your signature or whether or
not you wrote this particular signature.
(Document exhibited to witness.)
Mr. Rosen. No, sir; this is not my signature.
Mr. Stripling. Do you use glasses, Mr. Rosen?
Mr. Rosen. I use glasses in driving and for far distance.
Mr. Stripling. I mean in reading you do not use them^ I want
you to examine it carefully.
Mr. Rosen. I do not use them.
Mr. Stripling. You definitely say this is not your signature?
Mr. Rosen. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Is that your writing, "5405 Thirteenth Street NW." ;
is that your writing?
Mr. Rosen. No, sir.
Mr. Stripling. Did you ever reside at 5405 Thirteenth Street NW?
Mr. Rosen. No, sir ; I never did.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever at that residence at any time?
Mr. Rosen. I never did. I never knew that there was such an ad-
dress as 5405.
Mr. Stripling. You never knew what ?
Mr. Rosen. That there is such a number on Thirteenth Street. In
fact, I was never around that section.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know Benjamin Bialek?
Mr. Rosen. I may have seen him next door to my place of business,
but I do not know him well.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Rosen, when did you first come to Washington,
D. C?
Mr. Rosen. I first came to Washington in 1927, and I resided here
in 1927 until the fall of 1928. I went to New York, and I stayed in
New York from 1929 until 1941. In 1941, June 1941, 1 came to Wash-
ington.
Mr. Stripling. Were you in Washington in 1936 ?
Mr. Rosen. No, sir ; I was not.
Mr. Stripling. You were not. You were not here in 1936?
Mr. Rosen. I was not.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1333
Mr. Stripung. Then why. Mr. Rosen, did yon answer on Augnst
26, when yon were asked that same question, why did you refuse to
answer the question?
Mr. Rosen. I answered at the time that I was in New York.
Mr. Stripling. No ; I will read your testimony.
]\rr. P.rsvSELL. During the year 198G, did you visit Wiishington, D. C?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer the question on account that the answer I may
give nuiy tend to incriminate me.
Mr. McDowell. What was the question?
Mr. Russell. Did he during the year 1936 visit Washington. D. C?
Where were you living in 1936, yiv. Rosen?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer these questions.
jMr. McDowell. How in the world is that going to — —
IMr. iSixoN. Let him say on what grounds.
And then you go on today, Mr. Rosen, "on the grounds that any answer
may tend to incriminate me."
Now, Mr. Rosen, the committee is not playing a game of tag. I
mean this is a ^ery serious matter with this committee. We brought
you down here twice ; we sent investigators out to see jou. You come
in here one day and you give one answer, and "you come in the next
time and you give another.
Now, why did you tell us on August 26 that you refused to answer
whether you lived in Washington in 1936, and yet you come in here
todaj^ and say that you did not.
Mr. Rosen. I believe, if I am correct in stating, that last time on
August 26 I stated that I lived in ^vew York, and I gave the number
of the residence where I lived.
Mr. Stripling. Well, Mr. Rosen, we asked you again, that is Mr.
Nixon did, "Did you visit Washington in 1936?"', and you say "I
refuse to answer the question on the gi'ound that any answer I may
give may tend to incriminate me."
Now, I just asked you that, and you said you had not. What I
would like to know is why you gave that answer on the 26th of August?
Mr. Rosen. Excuse me for a minute.
The Chairman. The record will show that the witness consulted
counsel.
(Mr. Rosen consulted with Mr. Braverman.)
The Chairman. And I would like to say to both witness and coun-
sel that it is all right for the witness to consult with counsel on con-
stitutional questions, but on matters of fact, I do not want the w^it-
ness to consult with counsel. I mean if it is a simple answer as to
whether he owned a car or whether he lived in a certain place, that is
a matter of fact. The constitutional question is not involved at all.
He does not have to consult with counsel on those questions.
Mr. Stripling. All right. Mr. Rosen, what is your answer?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer. I may incriminate myself.
Mr. Stripling. It could not incriminate you as to why you changed
vour testimonv.
Mr. Rosen. When you bring in testimony of last time and this time
I do not know.
Mr. Stripling. All right. I just asked you if you ever lived at
5405 Thirteenth Street NW. What was your answer?
Mr. Rosen. No : I did not.
1334 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. You said no, you did not ? Well, on August 26 you
were asked by Mr. Vail : "Mr. Rosen, did you ever reside at 5405
Thirteenth Street NW., Washington?"
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer the question on the ground that any answer I
may give may tend to incriminate me.
Now, I think that you owe some explanation to the committee as to
why you are changing your testimony.
Mr. Rosen. I do not see any change in the testimony. I simply
refused to answer. Now, I decided to answer that question.
Mr. Stripling. All right. Will you answer the questions about
the 1929 Ford automobile ?
Mr. Rosen. On this I refuse to answer on account of I may in-
criminate myself.
The Chairman. Do you want to be cited for contempt by this com-
mittee, Mr. Rosen ?
Mr. Rosen. If you will allow me to make a remark on this question,
I will explain it to you.
The Chairman. What is that?
Mr. Rosen. I would like to make a statement to this question about
citing
The Chairman. All right. But you say you want to make a state-
ment about that ?
Mr. Rosen. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Well, all right. We will be glad to hear your state-
ment, but I want you to answer in the statement whether you want
to be cited for contempt. Now, go ahead and make a statement.
Mr. Rosen. I was called here the last time as a witness. I did not
expect that this thing will ruin my life
Mr. Stripling. Do what ?
Mr. Rosen. Ruin my life.
Mr. Stripling. Ruin your life?
Mr. Rosen. Yes, sir. Indirectly the committee has ruined my life,
has ruined my livelihood, has ruined me. Right after the day — the
day after the committee hearing I have been mobbed.
The Chairman. Excuse me, Mr. Rosen, we will have a short recess.
(A short recess was taken.)
Tlie Chairman. Now, Mr. Rosen, will you proceed with the state-
ment ?
Mr. Rosen. After I was at the committee hearing, the newspaper
had spread a statement that I was tied up with an underground spy
ring.
Mr. Stripling. That you were what ?
Mr. Rosen. That I was tied up with an underground spy ring, and
that I was — that I belonged to a certain branch of the Communist
Party in 1936 here, being a Communist, and on account of this state-
ment I have had some threats coming to me: somebodv told me I had
better get out of the neighborhood. They smeared my windows — boys
threw stones in my apartment. I called the police — at least they saw
the boys; they did not see the boys doing the things that they did, but
they saw the boy? :u'ound there, and I have lost all my best friends that
I built up in the last 8 years, lost every one of them on account of this
smear — this lie that has been printed in the press.
COMMUISriST ESPIONAGE 1335
jMr. Striplixg. Just a moment, Mr. Rosen. This smear you are
talking of, a'ou are not accusing the committee?
Mr. R.OSEX. No, sir; I said indirect. I said indirect, on account of
the hearing, the i)ress done it. I know the committee is not at fault.
Mr. S'reiPLTNG. I want to interrupt you right there, Mr. Kosen.
Every bit of this has been brought upon you by yourself. You came
before this committee and refused to answer questions on the ground
that 3^ou might incriminate yourself. The committee has made no
statement about your testimony or about any implication involved in
your testimony.
Now, you say, that the papers have said that you were a Communist
in 1936. Will you deny that you were a Communist?
Mr. RosEx. I sure was not.
Mr.- Striplixg. You were not a Communist ?
Mr. RosEx. I sure was not.
Mr. Striplixg. Are you a Communist now ?
Mr. RosEx^. I refuse to answer this question.
The Cpiairmax. You refuse to answer this question ?
Mr. RosEx. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that I
may incriminate mj^self. As far as 1936 is concerned, that involved
the question of the car, and I am explaining to you that I was not a
Communist ; I did not belong to the Communist Partj^
Mr. Striplixg. When did you join the Communist Party ?
Mr. RosEX. I joined the Communist Party from 1923 to 1929 ; 1929
I was expelled.
Mr. Striplix'G. When did you rejoin the Communist Party ?
Mr. RosEx. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that I
may incriminate myself.
Mr. Striplixg. Well, you see, Mr. Rosen, you do not play fair with
the committee.
Mr. RosEx. I do play fair.
The Chairmaxt. You do not play fair with yourself. The reason
for the smear in this newspaper, as you call it, or these lies that ap-
peared in the newspaper, as you called them, is because you are not
playing fair with j'ourself .
Mr. Striplixg. If you know nothing about this car, all you have
to do is testify that you know nothing about it. That is all the com-
mittee wants. They want the facts, but you have come in here and
refused to answer these questions. You refused to say whether you
lived at a certain address.
Now, you come in here this morning and say that you did not live
there. You refused to say whether you lived in Washington in 1936
or visited Washington in 1936.
NoAv, 3^011 say that you did not. I asked you did you ever buy a
car from Cherner Motor Co.
Mr. RosEX". I refuse to answer the question on account it may in-
criminate myself.
The Chairmax. Maj^be lie has not finished his statement. Go ahead.
Will you proceed with your statement ?
Mr. RosEx. I am through with the statement because I am through
as far as my life is concerned, and everj^thing is through with me
because I know that I am out ; I cannot make any more a living there.
My livelihood is gone, and I have nothing to lose there.
1336 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Well, Mr. Rosen, it is very strange to me that a man
would throw away his entire future, his livelihood, and so forth, by
refusing to answer a question before a committee of Congress involv-
ing a 1929 automobile which was sold in 1936. If you are not impli-
cated in it, why don't you say so? Now, the choice is yours.
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer on the ground that I may implicate
myself. I mean to say that I am incriminating myself.
The Chairman. What was that statement ?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer on the ground that I may incriminate
myself.
The Chairman. What did you say after that?
Mr. Rosen. I repeated myself, that I did not say the word right;
I repeated it.
Mr. Stripling. Well, Mr. Chairman, I liave no further questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Vail.
Mr. Vail. Mr. Rosen, have you received any instructions as to your
testimony from any source other than your counsel?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question. I may incriminate
myself.
The Chairman. You are not answering any of the questions, not
only that question. You are not now answering any of them.
Mr. Rosen. I have answered some questions.
The Chairman. If you don't watch out, we are going to cite you
for contempt, and you know what has happened to all the other people
that have been cited for contempt by this committee. Now, the same
thing is going to happen to you if you do not watch your step. You
have to be responsive to the questions propounded by the cliief inves-
tigator, the investigators, and the members of this committee.
Excuse me for interrupting, Mr. Vail.
Mr. Vail. The object of the committee. Mr. Rosen, is to protect the
interests of the American people, including j^ourself .
Mr. Rosen. Yes.
Mr. Vail. It certainly is not minded in creating difficulties in the
livelihood of any citizen. You, apparently, and in the opinion of the
committee, have lent your assistance to that element that is making an
effort to destroy the liberties that we are attempting to preserve for
the American citizenry. Do you want to be placed in that position ?
Mr. Rosen. I did not quite understand.
Mr. Vail. I mean, you have been placed in the position of assisting
those forces which ai-e attemj^ting to destroy our form of government.
I do not believe consciously that that is your intention. I think that
you are interested in preserving these liberties, are j^ou not?
Mr. Rosen. I sure am ; otherwise I would not be here.
Mr. Vail. But your actions as a witness before this committee give
the committee and the American people an entirely different impres-
sion, and that is the reason that 3^011 were feeling the effect of it in
your business, because of the bad press you have received. In other
words, the Amei'ican people have gained the impression, as has this
committee, that you are in league with that element that seeks to
destroy the liberties of the American people.
Mr. Rosen. They could not have gotten the impression if the papers
would not have printed lies about it. If the papers would print a true
statement, I can assure you nobody would have gotten the wrong im-
pression on me, because they know me too well.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1337
, Mr. Vail. Well, you were a member of the Communist Party, and
you say that you Avere expelled from the party. Did you at any time
since reenter the party ?
]Mr. RosEiSr. I refuse to answer this question on the ground of self-
incriminatino-
Mr. Vail. Well, I see no use in pursuing that line of questioning.
I think that you have established definitely in the minds of the com-
mittee that you are at the present time a member of the Communist
Party, and that you are associated with that element that seeks to
destroy this form of government, and, to my mind, you can hardly
blame the people of your neighborhood for reacting unpleasantly to
any individual who is a pavrn in this game that is being played
between tlie Soviets and the United States today.
Xo further questions.
The Chairmax. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDoAVELL. I do not think I have any questions, but there are a
couple of points that I think the committee ought to seriously consider,
and I am pointing them out here, because I would like to suggest to
counsel that he consider these, too.
Mr. Rosen has testified that this was not his signature on the title.
He has declined to testify whether he owned a 19:29 Ford. His wife,
Mrs. Addie Rosen, has testified that at no time did they own or have
a 1929 Ford. ]Mr. Rosen has testified that he at one time belonged
to the party, and was expelled. He has declined to say whether he
reentered the Communist Party.
Now, it appears to me that, from the testimony taken from him and
others, INIr. Rosen did not know any more about this automobile than
r did at that time. I doubt very much if he ever saw the automobile.
He declines to say whether he owned a Ford automobile, and it is
obvious that he did not own or have possession of a Ford automobile.
If such be the case, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Rosen is engaged here in a
conspiracy to deceive this committee. In other words, he is engaged
here in a conspiracy to drive us down an alley of blind ownership
of a car which, apparently and obviously, he had nothing to do with,
except that he, from my point of view, is at this very moment acting
under the order of some person to decline to answer — I do not say
"advise" — and I make that observation advisedly — I do not s-dj that
he is doing that on the advice of counsel, but apparently under the
orders of someone, presumably the Communist Party, to not admit
that he did not own an autombobile in 1929.
I would like to point out to Mr. Rosen : You are past 60 years old,
you, and your wife. You are a fine-looking couple. You are con-
cerned, deeply concerned, because you say your life has been ruined
because of the bad press that you got.
Are you expecting us to feel bad or sympathize with you because
people, Ameri^can people, are angry because you refuse to answer these
questions? You could clear your honor in 2 minutes if you say that
"I knovr nothing about this automobile, that some person used my
name," and then explain Mdiy it was that you came here to deny and
refuse to answer questions when they were propounded to you. "
I would like to tell you this, Mr. 'Rosen, we have had some of the
leading citizens of the United States sitting right where you are now,
great soldiers, great lawyers, officials of the Government, J. Edgar
'to'
1338 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Hoover, and all testified with honor and dignity ; all left with honor,
and nobody threw stones at them.
Now, I would like to suggest to counsel that in the opinion of one
member of the committee, Mr. Rosen is engaged at this moment or
attempting to engage in a conspiracy to commit contempt, and to
deceive this committee.
The Chairman. Do you care to comment on Mr. McDowell's state-
ment, Mr. Rosen ?
Mr. Rosen. I can only recommend that as far as the American
people, those who have threatened me, they were not considering the
question that I answer the question properly or not, they were simply
considering the smear in the papers that I was connected with an
underground spy ring, and that I was a member of a Northeast branch
of the Communist Party in 1936 here. This was the most concern,
so far as they are concerned, and I know I have a great many — 1 have
more friends
The Chairman. Well, you can clear
Mr. Rosen. Friends and enemies.
The Chairman. You can clear up every one of those points just like
that. You said that the newspapers claimed that you were a member
of the Communist Party in 1936. Is that true or not true?
Mr. Rosen. It is not true.
The Chairman. You were not a member in 1936 ?
Mr. Rosen. No ; of course not.
The Chairman. But when you were asked if j^ou were a member of
the Communist Party — when you joined the Communist Party again,
you refused to answer it, and you gave the impression to the press and
to the public that something is wrong.
Now, when did you agree to join the Communist Party again?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question.
The Chairman. There you go again. Go ahead.
Mr. McDowell. Now, here, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Rosen is indigTiant
that he was charged with being a member of the Northeast branch of
the Communist Party and that he was connected with a spy ring. We
are all adults here, Mr. Rosen, and you can certainly see without the
advice of counsel or anybody else that at your age and with your
experience that that means not a thing. You are straining at a gnat.
What difference does it make whether you belonged to the Communist
Party in 1936 or 1929 or if you are still or again a member of the Com-
munist Party? What difference did it make whether you belonged
to the Northeast branch or the Southeast or the Northwest branch?
You are straining at a gnat.
As I pointed out here the last time, you are making a poor argu-
ment about being put upon by some members of the press or the Amer-
ican people. That does not mean a thing. There is no sympathy for
you here, and there won't be any for you here until you decide to be an
American citizen and be truthful. You are headed straight toward
jail, as I see it.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Rosen, you have complained about certain
things appearing in the newspapers. This committee will have to file
a report with the Congress on this entire matter. If vou come in and
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1339
refuse to answer questions regarding the 1929 Ford, but you will an-
swer questions regarding other automobiles, questions regardino- other
automobiles that you owned, if you refuse to answer the most per-
tinent questions that this committee can ask you, there is nothino-
much that the committee can do but come to the conclusion that you ar?
certainly involved, otherwise you would answer. Are you involved in
the sale or transfer of a 1929 automobile ?
^ Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer on the ground of self-incriminat-
mg
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I do not think it is incriminating.
J^urthermore, the witness does not have the right to refuse to answer
that question on that particular ground.
I think Mr. McDowell's suggestion, when he appeared on August
2b, to hold him m contempt would certainly be in order
A complete investigation is being thwarted by the refusal of this
witness to answer a very simple question.
The Chairman. Well, I agree that it would be in order, but I would
like to just ask him a simple question in regard to an automobile
rou claim that you owned a Dodge car. AVhat were those other cars
tliat 3'ou owned ?
Che^^^olet^^^'"''' ^ ""^'^^'^ ^ Hupmobile, a Pontiac, a Plymouth, a
The Chairman A Chevrolet, Hupmobile, and what else?
Mr. Rosen. A Plymouth.
Tlie Chairman. Plymouth. Wliat others «
Mr. Rosen. That is all.
The Chairman. Those are the only cars you ever owned ?
Mr. Rosen. The cars that I remember that I owned,
rhe Chairman. Yes^ Now, just before that you said those were the
only cars-You said. ';That is all." Now, is it or is it not ?
about alh'^''" """ '^ "'^ ''^''''^ '"""'^ '''''''^ ^^'■^' ^^^ ^ '^^^ <^^^^t is
It^n.f^^'TV -^l'^ '" • v,^° •'?" T'"'''^ *^ ^^^"g-^ tl^'^t testimony?
Ml . KosE^ . I do not remember whether it is all or not.
1 he Chairman. I know. You said, "That is all "
other"c^'?r''* ^ '"'"'''' ''° ^"''^^'^'" ''''' ' ^'''- ^ '^"^ ^'^^ remember of any
The Chairman. Did you own a Buick ?
Mr. Rosen. No. sir ; I did not.
The Chairman. You did not own a Buick «
Mr. Rosen. No, sir.
The Chairan. Did you own a Ford «
Mr. Rosen. Well, this goes to the same point, too, again I still
refuse to answer the question about a Ford ' ^
The Chairman. All right. I have no more questions.
t r""- Pr *^^''- ^'^ account of incriminating myself.
Mr. McDowell. I have some questions.
Where is your present valet service located «
Mr. Rosen. 2009 Bunker Hill.
Mr. McDowell. Bunker Hill «
Mr. Rosen. Bunker Hill.
Mr. McDowell. Have you always been there ?
Mr. Rosen. Since 1941.
1340 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. McDowell. Since 1941. Have you ever operated at any place
else in Washington?
Mr. Rosen. No, sir. I operated — I had a store here on G Street
NW., in 1927.
Mr. McDowell. Did you ever have any other establishments, clean-
ing or pressing or
Mr. Rosen. No, sir ; I had no other establishment. I was managing
a store on Fourteenth Street NW., for about 6 months or 7 months, I
do not remember exactly.
Mr. McDowell. When was that ?
Mr. Rosen. In 1928, before I went to New York.
Mr. McDowell. Do you have any financial interest in any other
establishment in Washington?
Mr. Rosen. No, sir ; I have no finances.
Mr. McDowell. None at all. Do you have any connection at all
with any other establishment in Washington ?
Mr. Rosen. No. sir; no connection whatsoever.
Mr. McDow-ELL. That is all.
The Chairman. Mr. Vail.
Mr. Vail. No further questions.
The Chairman. Mr. Stripling?
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Rosen, which one of your sons worked for Mr.
Benjamin Bialek?
Mr. Rosen. Sons?
Mr. Stripling. Yes.
Mr. Rosen. I do not know. I do not know whether it was Ben-
jamin Bialek — I did not know a thing about it. They were kids;
they were about 12, 13 years old, and they used to run some errands
there for some people. I didn't know whether it was for Benjamin
Bialek or for someone else — it was a drug store. They used to make
pennies in the evenings. I would not let them do it, but they went
around some places; that is about all. They did not work for him.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Rosen, I am going to ask you one question which
is very pertinent, and if you refuse to answer it, if you refuse to answer
this question, I am going to ask the committee to cite you for contempt.
Did the Communist Party instruct you to come in and give this
testimony ?
Mr. Rosen. No, sir ; they did not.
Mr. Stripling. Did anyone connected with the Communist Party
instruct you to give this testimony ?
Mr. Rosen. No, sir; they did not.
Mr. Stripling. Did the Communist Party get in touch with you,
from Baltimore, regarding your appearance before the committee on
August 26 ?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the ground it may
incriminate myself.
Mr. Stripling. And you still say the Communist Party or none of
its representatives got in touch with you as to the testimony you would
give before this committee?
Mr. Rosen. I sr.id nobody instructed me.
Mr. Stripling. Did they get in touch with you or did any agent of
the Communist Party get in touch with you ?
Mr. Rosen. I refuse to answer this question on the ground that I
may incriminate myself.
' COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1341
Mr. Stripling. That is all.
Mr. McDowell. Once again, I would like to point out that if he had
nothing to do with this car, if he did not sign this title, if he did not
own the car, as Mrs. Rosen has testified, and he declines to answer on
the ground that it might incriminate him, that is contempt of Congress,
direct contempt of Congress, and in addition to the crime of contempt
of Congress it is also, in my opinion, the crime of conspiracy to commit
contempt, as that was apparently established before the witness
came in.
The Chair3iax. I certainly agree. But I would like to ask a couple
of questions before we get to that question.
When did you come to this country, Mr. Eosen?
Mr. Rosen. December 1901.
The Chairman. You came from what country ?
]\Ir. Rosen. I came from Austria or rather Galicia ; it was a province
of Austria.
The Chairman. And you came over on what boat ?
]Mr. Rosen. I do not remember. It is 47 years. I think it was the
Red Star Line, if I am not mistaken.
The Chairman. The Red Star Line ?
Mr. Rosen. That is right.
The Chairman. Have vou made any other trips back to Europe since
then?
Mr. Rosen. Yes, 1923 ; I was in Europe to see my old mother.
The Chairman. AVhen vrere you naturalized'^
Mr. Rosen. Last time I stated in 1910, but I think it was in 1912. 1
think it was March or April of 1912.
The Chairman. March or April?
Mr. Rosen. Norfolk, Va.
The Chairman. Where did you apply for your naturalization
papers ?
Mr. Rosen. Norfolk, Va.
The Chairman. Norfolk, Va. What names did you use then?
Mr. Rosen. My name, William Rosen.
The Chairman. William Rosen. When were you made a citizen ?
]\Ir. Rosen. Well, that was the time.
The Chairman. That was the time ?
Mr. Rosen. 1912, I think.
The Chairman. Those are the only questions I have.
Mr. Stripling. I ask, Mr. Chairman, that you excuse Mr. Rosen and
have Mr. Braverman take the stand and bring in his counsel.
I also ask that Mr. Rosen remain under subpena, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Without objection, so ordered.
Do you want Mr. Rosen here ?
Mr. Stripling. No, sir. You remain under the authority of the
subpena.
Mr. Rosen. I can go now, can I ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Braverman is the next witness, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. All right.
Mr. Braverman, will you stand and be sworn, please?
You solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Bra\t:rman. I do.
1342 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Braverman, are you accompanied by counsel?
Mr. Braverman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Stripling. All right.
Mr. FoRER. Joseph Forer.
Mr. Stripling. What is your address?
Mr. Forer. 1105 K Street WW. That is Washington, D. C.
Mr. Stripling. How long have you been a member of the bar?
Mr. Forer. Let's see, about 12, 13 years.
Mr. Stripling. Were you ever employed in the Government ?
Mr. Forer. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. What agencies?
Mr. Forer. Treasury, NLRB, EEA, OPA.
Mr. Stripling. As an attorney?
Mr. Forer. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. All the time?
Mr. Forer. Yes.
Mr. DuBow. My name is Mitchell A. Dubow, and my address is
705 Knickerbocker Building in Baltimore.
Mr. Stripling. Have you been admitted to practice law in the Dis-
trict of Columbia?
Mr. Dubow. No ; I have not.
Mr. Stripling. Have you been admitted to practice law before the
Federal courts?
Mr. Dubow. In the State of Maryland, before the district court
in the State of Maryland.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever 'been employed in the Government?
Mr. Dubow. No : I have not, other than being an officer in the Corps
of Engineers during the war.
Mr. Stripling. And you hold a Reserve commission ?
Mr. Dubow. I do.
Mr. Stripling. What rank?
Mr. Dubow. Captain.
TESTIMONY OF MAURICE LOUIS BRAVERMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, JOSEPH FORER AND MITCHELL A. DUBOW
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Braverman, will you state your full name,
please ?
Mr. Braverman. Maurice Louis Braverman.
Mr. Stripling. Where were you born?
Mr. Braverman. Here in Washington.
Mr. Stripling. What year?
Mr. Braverman. 1916.
Mr. Stripling. Have you ever been employed in the Government?
Mr. Braverman. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. What agencies ?
Mr. Braverman. I had temporary jobs ; I never was on permanent
civil -service status. I worked for the post office in Baltimore.
Mr. Stripling. Give us the years.
Mr. Braverman. About a month — I am trying to think now — 1939,
1940, one of those 2 years — it was just about a month. I worked for
the War Department for a few months also in that period, in either
1939 or 1940.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1343
The Chairman. Before you go on with the next question : You say
the War Department. What branch over there ?
Mr. Braverman. They have got a little building — I did grade 1
clerk — whatever that was — that is the lowest grade in the civil service,
and I do not know what department. I think it was the Adjutant
General's Department. I had a temporary job. I worked filing
down here at this old building, they call the E Building down here
at the Mall.
The Ch-airman. The E Building?
Mr. Braverman. Yes ; they called it the E Building, as I remember.
I think I had a 3-month temporary appointment, and I do not think
it was renewed,
Mr. Stripling. Any other?
Mr. Braverman. And I also worked temporary appointments for
the Bureau of Internal Revenue, also as a grade 1 clerk ; I think that
is the status.
Mr. Stripling. What year was that ?
Mr. BRA^-ERMAN. That would take in, I think, 1940 to lOll. I
worked for about a year for them.
Mr. Stripling. Any other employment?
Mr. Braverman. No other employment by the Government.
Mr. Stripling. Where did you go to school?
Mr. Braverman. Well, I attended school in Baltimore, went through
high school. I had some college — I did not get much credits — I did
not finish it, and I went to the University of Baltimore, where I got
my law degree. That is in Baltimore.
Mr. Stripling. When did you get your law degree?
Mr. Braverman. 1941.
Mr. Stripling. Are you a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Braverman. Mr. Chairman, I want to state here that the only
reason I am before this committee is because I came here representing
a witness. The connnittee has not been satisfied with the way that
witness appeared here, and has called me here to harass me, to intimi-
date me, to intimidate my clients.
Any questions that go into my private, personal, or political life go
to the root of the attorney and client relationship. That is the only
reason that I am here before this committee, and I say that this
committee has no right to ask me that question.
The Chairman. Well, the Chair would like to interrupt you for just
a minute. The reason that you are here is that you refused to be
sworn yesterday.
Mr. Braverman. And the only reason I was asked to be sworn yes-
terday was that I was here before the committee together with a wit-
ness, and the committee was not satisfied with the way I represented
that witness.
Mr. Stripling. That is not correct.
The Chairman. We had certain questions we wanted to ask you,
and you refused to be sworn, and you refused to be sworn because you
did not have counsel, and then we served a subpena on you and in
accordance with that subpena you are here today with your counsel,
two members of the bar.
Mr. Stripling. Are you a member of the Communist Party, Mr.
Braverman ?
1344 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Bra VERM AN. I repeat my answer, Mr. Stripling, and I refuse
to state — I refuse to answer that question on the ground of the first
amendment, wliicli gives me the right of freedom of speech; freedom
of assembly, and freedom of association; and the fifth amendment,
the amendment providing for self-incrimination.
Mr. Stripling. Self-incrimination. Are you pleading self-incrimi-
nation ?
Mr. Braverman. I will repeat my answer, Mr. Stripling.
Mr. Stripling. I want this straight. Are you pleading self-
incriminatioir?
Mr. Braverman. I am pleading the fifth amendment to the Consti-
Uition. I refuse to answer that question that was given to me just a
few seconds ago on the grounds on which I stated before and on the
further ground of the first and fifth amendments, which amendments
protect me against giving any evidence whicli will incriminate me.
Mr. Stripling. But, in answering whether or not you are a member
of tlie party would incriminate you in your own mind.
Mr. Braverman. I repeat again : The only leason I am here before
this committee is because this connnittee is harassing me because I
appeared here as counsel with a witness. I am not here on anything
material to the inquiry that is being carried on by this connnittee.
If I had not appeared here as counsel for this witness I would not
here today be subpenaed by this committee. The only reason I was
asked to take the stand yesterday and asked to take the stand also the
first time I appeared with Mr. Rosen on the '2()th of August was be-
cause it was an attempt which was made to intimidate me in the eyes
(if my client, and, therefore, to intimidate my client. Any questions
that go to my private, personal ]x>litical beliefs, under these circum-
stances, are questions that go to the base of attorney and client
relationship.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Cliairman, the reason that the witness was asked
to be sworn on August 26, and the reason that he was asked to be sworn
yesterday, and the reason that he has been subpenaed to appear here
today was not to intimidate his client, but rather to bring forth cer-
tain information as to why Mr. Rosen has refused to answer certain
pertinent questions before this committee.
I believe that Mr. Rosen was insti'ucted by the Communist Party
of the District of Columbia and Maryland to refuse to answer these
questions, and I think that Mr. Braverman instructed him to do so
upon instructions of the Communist Party, and I shall ask Mr.
Braverman certain questions along that line, which have nothing to
do with intimidating Mr. Rosen.
Are you, or have you ever been, a member of the Communist Party,
Ml-. Braverman ?
Mr. Braverman. Mr. Chairman and Mr. Stripling, Mr. Stripling's
statement has proved the point that I have been making, the point
being that I am here
The Chairman. There is a question which has been asked.
Mr. Stripling. I ask that he be asked to i-espond to the question.
The Chairman. You respond to the question.
Mr. Braverman. May I consult with counsel ?
The Chairman. Yes; you ma}^ consult with counsel.
(Mr. Braverman consults with Mr. Forer and Mr.,Dubow.)
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1345
]Mr. Braverihax. I refuse to answer that question for the reasons
that I have ah-eady given.
Mv. Stripling. Are you acquainted Avith an individual by the name
of David Rein (
Mr. Braverman. Yes.
Mr. Striplixg. Wlien did you Last see Mr, Rein ?
Mv. Braverman. I do not remember.
JMr. Striplixg. Did you liave any conversation with Mr. Rein ou
Au<rust 25?
Mr. Bravermax. It was August 26 — that was the day I appeared
lie re?
Air. Stripling. Xo. The 26tli was the day you appeared here.
Mr. Braverman. No ; I had no conversation witli him on the 25th.
Mr. Stripling. Did vou have anv conversation with him on the 21:th
of August ?
Mr. Bra\t.rman. I did not.
:Mr. Stripling. The 23d of August ?
Mr. Braverman. I did not.
Mr. Stripling. The 26th of August ?
Mr. Braverman. Yes.
Mr. Stripling. Did you receive a telephone call from an indiviauai
by the name of William Taylor in Washington, D. C. ?
Mr. Braverman. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
already stated, which go to the basis of my attorney-client relation-
ship with Mr. Rosen. The reasons I am appearing here is because I
came here as counsel for Mr. Rosen. I further refuse to answer that
(piestion on the grounds of the first and fifth amendments.
Air. Stripling. Who put you in touch with Mr. Rosen ? Who asked
you to appear for him ?
Air. Braver^ian. That question goes to the very basis of my rela-
tionship with my client. It is a privileged matter that exists between
my clients and myself.
Mr. Stripling. Will you state under oath that the Communist Party
did not put you in touch with Mr, Rosen ?
Mr. Bravermax. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds
that I "have already given.
Mr. Stripling. Did you knoAv Albert E. Blumberg?
Mr. Braa-ermax. Yes : I know Mr. Blumberg.
Mr. Striplixg. How w^ell do you know Mr. Blumberg?
Mr. Bravermax'. He is a client of mine.
Mr. Striplix-^g. A client of yours ? Have you ever represented the
Communist Party?
Air. Bravermax. Yes ; I have represented the Communist Party.
Air. Striplixg. How many times have you represented the Com-
munist Party ?
Air. Bravermax. I do not know. Offhand. I cannot say.
Air. Striplixg. You refuse to answer whether or not you are a
Communist on the grounds you might incriminate yourself?
Air. Bravermax. I refuse to answer on the grounds that I have al-
ready stated. 1 have stated them fully, and I will be glad to state
them again.
Air. Striplixg. It is not necessary, but you do include the fifth
amendment ?
8040S — 48 54
1346 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Mr. Bravermax. I do include the fifth amendment.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, I have certain information here
which I do not wish to introduce at this time. I want to introduce
it in open session. I have no further questions.
I recommend that this witness also be cited for contempt of the
committee.
The Chairman. That will be taken into consideration.
Mr. Vail.
Mr. Vail. I have no questions, but I would like to comment briefly
on Mr. Braverman's testimony. When a question is asked of any
sound and patriotic American as to whether or not he is a member of
the Communist Party, it has been our experience that he indignantly
answered, "No," and when we find that individual who seeks refuge
behind certain provisions of the Constitution refuses to answer that
point-blank question we have no alternative but to believe, to assume,
that that individual is a member of the Communist Party, and you
leave us, Mr. Braverman, with no alternative but that belief.
You are satisfied to leave us with that impression; is that correct?
Mr. Braverman. Mr. Vail, I repeat, the reason I have been sub-
penaed to this committee is because on two occasions I have represented
witnesses before this committee, and this committee has seen fit on
each occasion to attempt to put me under oath in front of my wit-
ness, has attempted to then go into my personal, private, and political
life which is not at all material to the inquiry under investigation
by this committee, and that is my answer.
Mr. Vail. No further questions.
The Chairman. Mr. McDowell.
Mr. McDowell. I have no questions, but I would like to tell Mr.
Braverman that there have been literally dozens and dozens of lawyers
who have appeared here, some of them Communists, suspected Com-
munists, who declined to answer for various reasons, self-incrimina-
tion, and so forth. They were not sworn, and they were not asked to
be sworn. The caliber of the answers of Mr. Rosen, your client, raises
grave suspicion in the minds of the committee that a conspiracy
to commit contempt has been established. This committee and all
other committees of Congress will continue to have all the respect for
the efforts of the law and lawyers, attorneys, but it is not beyond
the bounds of possibility that an attorney, too, is a traitor to his coun-
tiy. That is all I have.
The Chairman. Do you have any more questions?
Mr. Stripling. No, sir.
The Chairman. Does the chief investigator want this witness to
remain under subpena ?
Mr. Stripling. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right, Mr. Braverman, you will remain under
subpena, and you are excused now.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Chairman, on August 28, 1948, the committee
issued a report entitled "Interim Report on Hearings Regarding the
Communist Espionage in the United States Government.'' I ask that
this report be made a part of this record at this time.
Tlie Chairman. Without objection, it is so ordered. The meeting
will now adjourn, to reconvene upon notice by the chairman.
(Whereupon the meeting adjourned.)
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1347
Interim Report on Hearings Regarding Communist Espionage in the United
States Gove2inment
It has been the established policy of the House Committee on Un-American
Activities since its inception that in a great, virile, free republic like the United
States, one of the most effective weapons against un-American actvities is their
continuous exposure to the spotlight of publicity. It has also been our consistent
position that the people of tlie United States— to whom this Government right-
fully belongs— are entitled to a clear picture of the extent of disloyal and inimi-
cal influences working secretly to destroy our free institutions whether they
operate from within or without the Government.
The current investigations and hearings dealing with past and present Com-
munist espionage activities in Government are therefore strictly in conformity
with what the members of the House Committee on Un-American Activities con-
ceive to be their duty and responsibility to undertake.
It is essential to the success of our efficient Federal Bureau of Investigation
that It must not disclose all of its sources of information and methods of opera-
tion. It is also a fact— although one which is sometimes overlooked by the ill-
mformed— that the FBI is a fact-finding and investigating agency and not an
exposure agency. Its duties are to find and record the facts so they will be
available to police oflicers, law-enforcement officials, and the prosecuting agencies
of Government. It is not a vehicle for reporting to the public on the extent of
nefarious activities. It is under the direction of the Attorney General of the
United States, and its contacts with the public and with Congress are determined
by policies established by him.
In the United States we sometimes utilize the method of gathering and pre-
senting evidence which is represented by the grand jury. Grand-jury proceed-
ings are conducted in the greatest of secrecy. Jurors in these proceedings sit
as judges of the evidence submitted, but their decisions as to guilt or to inno-
cence are made only after the officials conducting the proceedings ask them for
a verdict as to specific points and on specific questions. In the case of a Federal
grand jury, it therefore rests with the Attorney General as to what verdicts are
sought, as to what evidence is submitted, and as to what disposition is to be
made of the material presented. Until a grand jury has issued either an indict-
ment or a no-true bill, there is no means of establishing either the guilt or the
innocence of the people before it on the basis of what goes on behind its tightly
closed doors At best, the grand jury is not a vehicle for reporting to the public
on the extent of un-American activities in a free republic
As contrasted with the FBI and the grand jury, the House Committee on Un-
American Activities has a separate and a very special responsibility. It func-
tions to permit the greatest court in the world— the court of American public
^rr"r i-""''^ "*" undirected, uncensored, and unprejudiced opportunity to
render a continuing jerdict on all of its public officials and to evaluate the merit
of many m private life who either openly associate and assist disloyal groups or
covertly operate as members or fellow travelers of such organizations. It is as
necessary to the success of this committee that it reveal its findings to the public
as^it IS to the success of the FBI that it conceal its operations from thi public
The functioning of the Communist espionage rings in Government provides a
dramatically yivid illustration of the functions of the three foregoing public in
^l^ZV'V^'^'J. ^•endering of the service they are created to perform
The FBI functions to find and assimilate all of the facts available to that or-
ganization and to make them available to the prosecuting agencies of the Fed-
eral Government. The Federal grand jury functions to considei the evidence
sel^ected from these facts by the Attorney General and to pass judgment upon
whatever verdicts it is asked to make by the Attorney General. The iSuse S
mittee on Un-American Activities functions to alert the public concernin-/ the
existence and operation of these espionage practices, and to poinrup and%io!
pose the necessary new legislation to provide our country with greater safe-
guards and to enable it to protect itself against the constantlTchan-in- tactics
r^mZt "" "' ^«^-ld-^id- ^^d world-dominated communism'^and its American
We are an arm of the lawmaking branch of our Government It is our iob to
explore, to study, and to investigate, and to determine if new laws are nided o?
present aws need strengthening. In pursuing this all-imp^rta^? function full
inquiry is essential which is the historic and special prerogath e of ?he Sis^i
tne branch of our Government. The duties and functions of t le CommittS on
1348 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Un-American Activities are somewhat unique anions the committees of Con-
gress, which are principally concerned with matters of commerce, taxes, and tlie
operation of the Federal Government, but there is delegated to us the function
of investigating- subversive influences which seek to destroy the Government and
institutions of the United States.
In dealing with groups and individuals that engage in this subversive con-
spiracy, the commttee has the ditticult task of pursuing its inquiry through reg-
ulations and procedures which, when formulated, were meant to apply only to
law-abiding citizens of the country.
It is noteworthy, for example, that not until the House Committee on Un-
American Activities began its current hearings on the subject did the general
public have any knowledge that the now established and disclosed Communist
espionage activities had reached into vital positions of high authority in Govern-
ment. Not until these hearings began did the general pul)lic or even the average
Member of Congress have the evidence upon which to base decisions concerning
the new legislation essential to our national security under prevailing conditions.
Not until these hearings began did the people to whom this Governnjent belongs
have any direct evidence as to the men and methods being employed to subjugate
our freedom to the tyranny of a foreign totalitarian power. The false security
of complacent ignorance is much worse than having either no security or no
complacency at all.
It is also true that in many instances the crimes of treason and espionage
are so difficult to punish by conviction because of technical devices and the
necessity' of so tightly defining these crimes, that if near treason and "virtual
espionage" and "cold-war treason or espionage" are to be safeguarded against
it is imperative that not only must the power of public opinion be marshaled
against these disloyal and self-serving practices but legislation must be enacted
which will provide appropriate punishment for these specific derelictions. To
do less than that is to deny to the people generally the protection and security
they have a right to expect from alert public ofiicials.
REASONS FOK PUBLIC HEARINGS
Questions are sometimes raised both by chronic critics of this committee and
by sincere observers as to whether holding public hearings on questions of
loyalty, espionage, and Communist conspiracy ever serves the public interest.
These people hold that our committee should screen witnesses carefully in
secret executive sessi()ns and sift the testimony, releasing to the puiilic only
such portions as the committee decides it should see or hear.
It is argued by those adhering to this position that this committee, in its
zeal to protect the reputations and feelings of iiniocent people whose names may
occasionally be injected into pulilic hearings, should operate in large part after
the maimer of a grand jury and in utmost secrecy, withholding from the public
the steps by which evidence is accumulated and its decisions made. This com-
mittee yields to nobody in its earnest desire to protect the iimocent and to
expose the guilty.
It is the established policy of this committee to protect in every feasible
manner the reputations and the sensibilities of innocent citizens. It is also
an established fact that in conducting public hearings — and this committee
deplores the use of star-chamber, secret sessions unless public necessity requires
them — an occasional mention of some innocent citizen in connection with a
nefarious practice will inevitably occur. When it does, we provide every op-
portunity for those mentioned to clear themselves of all suspicion in the same
forum before the same publicity media as in the case of the original allegations.
In addition we have frequently inserted memoranda in our fi'es to protect those
innocently accused elsewhere from unjust attack or suspicion.
At times, however, your committee is confronted witli the necessity of running-
the risk that a few innocent peoiile may be ten^iorarily emltarras.sed or the risk
that 140,000,000 innocent Americans may be permanently enslaved. When neces-
sary to resolve the relative merits of two such ri.sks as that, your connnittee
holds to the position that its primary responsibility is to that great bulk of our
American population whose patriotic devotion to our free institutions de.serves
the greatest diligence in being protected against those who would utilize our B'll
of Riiihts and our American freedoms to destro.v permanently these great safe-
guards of personal liberty and human dignit.v.
There is another very vital and important reason why public hearings such as
are held by this connnittee provide an indispensable supplement to the off-the-
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1349
record investigations and activities of such institutions as tlie FBI and the
grand jury. It is illustrated most recently by the controversial features of the
Chambers-Hiss testimony. Despite tlie fact that Alger Hiss had lieen interrogated
as to his connections with eonununism and Communists by at least two out-
standing Americans, Secretary of State Byrnes and John Foster Dulles, acting
independently, and by other Government officials, none of these interrogatories
had established the relatioship of Hiss and Chambers until our committee held
its public hearings on this case. In fact, it was not until our public hearings
had proceeded for some time that it was definitely establislied that Alger Hiss
and Whittaker Chambers knew each other pei-sonally and rather intimately during
the precise period of time that Whittaker Chambers testified that their associa-
tions took place. Mr. Hiss testified that he knew Whittaker Chambers by the
name of "George Crosley" Init he positively identified the man known today as
AVhittaker Chambers as the man he knew. He testified unequivocally that he
not oidy knew Chambers (l)y name of Crosley) but that he let him use his
apartment without ever receiving payment for it, that lie loaned Chambers
money, that he loaned or gave him an automobile, and that he had even kept
Mr. and Mrs. Chambers and their bal)y in his own home overnight on one or
more occasions. Thus the coimection between Alger Hiss and Whittaker Cham-
bers, as a man-to-man relationship, stands without challenge confirmed by the
testimony of both men and the public hearings held by this committee. This
fact had never been established by other investigations.
It should also be noted that the stark fact that Alger Hiss and Whittaker
Chambers, a self-confessed paid Communist functionary and espionage agent,
were acquainted witli eacli other and did have numerous transactions and asso-
ciations together, is of far greater significance under the circumstances than
whether Chambers was known tb Hiss by the name of '"Carl" or of "George
Crosley." This fact has been established without challenge for the record by the
public hearings Of this committee, although through the years it had been estab-
lished by no other investigation.
Hiss will be given every opportunity to reconcile the conflicting portions of his
testimony, but the confrontation of the two men and the attenclant testimony
from both witnesses has definitely shifted the burden of proof from Chambers
to Hiss, in the opinion of this committee. Up to now, the vertifiable portions of
Chambers' testimony have stood up strongly; the vertifiable portions of the Hiss'
testimony have been badly shaken and are primarily refuted by the testimony
of Hiss versus Hiss, as the complete text of the printed hearings will reveal.
IDENTIFICATION OF THE ESPIONAGE GROUPS
Elizabeth T. Bentley, in testimony before the committee, identified two Com-
munist espionage groups composed of Government employees and Government
officials in Washington. D. C. Information supplied from the files of the Federal
Government by members of these espionage groups was conveyed to New York
City and turned o\'Vr to agents of the Soviet Union, according to Miss Bentley.
The members of these groups, as identified by Miss Bentley, and their employing
Federal agencies for the period concerned in the testimony, are as follows :
SlLVEEMASTER GrOUP
Nathan Gregory Slivermaster, Director of Labor Division, Farm Security Ad-
ministration : detailed at one time to Board of Economic Warfare. ' •
Solomon Adler, Treasury Department ; agent in China.
Norman Bursler, Department of Justice.
Frank Coe, Assistant Director, Division of Monetary Research, Treasury: special
assistant to United States Ambassador in London; assistant to the Executive
Director, Board of Economic Warfare and successor agencies; Assistant Ad-
ministrator, Foreign Economic Administration.
Lauchlin Currie. administrative assistant to the President ; Deputy Administrator
of ForeigTi Economic Administration.
Bela Gold (known to Miss Bentley as William Gold), assistant head of Division of
Program Surveys. Bureau of Agricultural Economics, Agriculture Department;
Senate Subcommittee on War Mobilization; Office of Economic Programs in
Foreign Economic Administration.
Mrs. Bela (Sonia) Gold, re.search assistant. House Select Committee on Inter-
state Migration ; labor-market analyst. Bureau of Employment Security ;
Division of Monetary Research, Treasury.
1350 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
Abraham George Silverman, director, Biu'eaii of Research and Information
Services, United States Railroad Retirement Board ; economic adviser and chief
of analysis and plans. Assistant Chief of Air Staff. Materiel and Services, Air
Forces.
AVilliam Taylor, Treasury Department.
William Ludvrig Ullmann, Division of Monetary Research, Treasury; Materiel
and Service Division, Air Corps Headquarters, Pentagon.
Peelo Group
Victor Perlo, head of brand in Research Section, OfBce of Price Administration ;
War Production Board ; Monetary Research, Treasury.
Edward J. Fitzgerald, War Production Board.
Harold Glasser, Treasury Department; loaned to Government of Ecuador; loaned
to War Production Board ; adviser on North African Affairs Committee in
Algiers, North Africa.
Charles Kramer (Krevitsky), National Labor Relations Board; Office of Price
Administration; economist with Senate Subcommittee on* War Mobilization.
Solomon Lischinsky, United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration.
Harry Magdoff. Statistical Division of War Production Board and Office of
Emergency Management ; Bureau of Research and Statistics, WPB ; Tools
Division, WPB ; Bureau of Foreign and Domestic Commerce.
Allan Rosenberg, Foreign Economic Administration.
Donald Niven Wheeler, Office of Strategic Services.
Miss Bentley also testified that Irving Kaplan, an employee of the War Pro-
duction Board at the time, was associated with both groups, paying dues to the
Perlo group and submitting information to the Silvermaster group. She identi-
fied the late Harry Dexter White, then Assistant Secretary of the Treasury, as
another individual who cooperated with the Silvermaster group.
Unattached Individuals
Miss Bentley further testified that there were certain individuals employed in
the Government who cooperated in obtaining information from the files of the
Government for the use of Russian agents but who were not actually attached
to either the Silvermaster or Perlo groups. These individuals, as named by Miss
Bentley, and the governmental agency with which they were employed during
the period concerned in the testimony, are as follows :
Michael Greenberg, Board of Economic Warfare ; Foreign Economic Admin-
istration ; specialist on China.
Joseph Gregg, Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs, assistant in Research
Division.
Maurice Halperin, Office of Strategic Services ; head of Latin American Division
in the Research and Analysis Branch ; head of Latin American research and
analysis. State Department.
J. Julius Joseph, Office of Strategic S.ervices, Japanese Division.
Duncan Chaplin Lee, Office of Strategic Services, legal adviser to Gen. William J.
Donovan.
Robert T. Miller, head of political research. Coordinator of Inter-American Af-
fairs; member. Information Service Committee, Near Eastern Affairs, State
Department ; Assistant Chief, Division of Research and Publications, State
Department.
William Z. Park, Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs.
Bernard Redmont, Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs.
Helen Tenney, Office of Strategic Services, Spani.sh Division.
William Remington, of the Department of Commerce, was mentioned by Miss
Bentley before the Senate investigation committee as having been associated
with this group.
Wake-Abt-Witt Group
On August 3, the conunittee heard the testimony of Whittaker Chambers. He
testified regarding an underground apparatus Avhich was set up by the Com-
munist Party in the early thirties for the purpose of infiltrating the Federal
Government. The members of this group, according to Mr. Chambers, and their
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1351
govei-nuieutal emplo.vnient during the period concerned in the testimony, are as
follows :
Haiokl Ware (deceased), Department of Agriculture.
John J. Abt, Department of Agriculture ; Works Progress Administration ; Senate
Committee on Education and Labor ; Justice Department.
Nathan Witt, Department of Agriculture ; National Labor Relations Board.
Lee Pressman, Department of Agriculture; W^orks Progress Administration.
Alger Hiss, Department of Agriculture ; Special Senate Committee Investigating
the Munitions Industry ; Justice Department ; State Department.
Donald Hiss, State Department; Labor Department.
Henry H. Collins, National Recovery Administration ; Department of Agriculture.
Charles Kramer (Krevitsky), National Labor Relations Board; Office of Price
Administration ; Senate Subcommittee on War Mobilization.
Victor Perlo, Office of Price Administration ; War Production Board ; Treasury
Department.
SUilMAKY OF WITNESSES AND TESTIMONY
Testimony regarding Communist espionage activities within the Government
involvmg approximately 40 individuals was given before the committee bv
Elizabeth Terrill Bentley, Whittaker Chambers, and Louis F. Budenz, admitted
former functionaries of the Communist Party.
Mr. Chambers was formerly editor of the (Communist) Daily Worker and of
the New Masses. He is now a senior editor of Time Magazine. Mr. Budenz
was formerly managing editor of the (Communist) Daily Worker. He is now a
professor at Fordham University.
Miss Bentley, according to her own testimony which has been verified by
Mr. Budenz, was formerly active in Communist underground activity The
Committee is in possession of supporting evidence to establish these previous
Communist affiliations.
Of these forty-odd individuals named, Lauchlin Currie, Harry D White (de-
ceased), Bela Gold, Sonia Gold, Frank Coe, Alger Hiss, Donald Hiss, appeared
before the committee at their own request and categorically denied the accusa-
tions made by Miss Bentley and Mr. Chambers.
Henry H. Collins, Victor Perlo, Abraham George Silverman, William Ludwig
Ullmaun, Nathan Gregory Silvermaster, John Abt, Lee Pressman, Nathan Witt
Duncan Chaplin Lee, Robert T. Miller, and Charles Kramer appeared in response
to subpeuas. Alexander Koral, who was allegedly involved in these activities
Avas also subpenaed. J. Peters, alleged head of. the Communist underground
m this country, will be served with a subpena on August 30.
Norman Bursler, Allan Rosenberg, Solomon Adler, Solomon Lischinsky Marv
Price, Donald Niven W^heeler, Edward J. Fitzgerald, Harold Glasser, Joseph
Gregg, Rose Gregg, Irving Kaplan, and certain Russian contacts known ouiv
as M-ank, Al, and Jack, have not appeared before the committee. Harold
M. Ware is deceased, as is also Jacob N. Golos.
Ten witnesses (Alexander Koral, Henry H. Collins, Victor Perlo, Abraham
George Silverman, Nathan Gregory Silvermaster, William Ludwig Ullmann
John Abt, Lee Pressman, Nathan Witt, and Charles Kramer) refused to affirm'
or deny membership in the Communist Party on the ground of self-incrimination
These 10 witnesses on the same grounds, also refused to affirm or deny contacts
with 1 or more of the 40 individuals allegedly involved in espionage or with
Elizabeth Terrill Bentley or W^iittaker Chambers.
Nine of these witnesses (Alexander Koral, Victor Perlo, Abraham George
Silverman, ^Nathan Gregory Silvermaster, William Ludwig Ullmann, John Abt,
Lee Pressman, Nathan Witt, and Charles Kramer) refused to affirm or den^
charges made against them by Elizabeth Terrill Bentley or Whittaker Chambers
^o charge of Communist Party affiliation was made against either Lauchlin
Currie or Harry Dexter White. Both denied such affiliation. However both
admitted acquaintance with various members of the espionage group named by
Ehzaberh Bentley and Whittaker Chambers. » s u ctmeu uy
The following persons who were charged with being Communist Party mem-
bers denied such affiliation: Bela Gold, Sonia Gold, Duncan Chaplin l'? Tlg^r
Hiss, Donald Hiss, Robert T. Miller, and Frank Coe. They all admitted how-
e^er, associations and acquaintance with various members of the espionage grouns
named. Alger Hiss, after previous denials, admitted knowing WhittakS Cham-
1352 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
bei's as George Crosley. Duncan Chaplin Lee and Robert T. Miller admitted
knowing Miss Bentley, the former acknowledging also acquaintance with Jacob
Golos, Miss Beutley's superior, now deceased.
WHY THESE HEARINGS WE:RE DEFERRED UNTIL JULY
The committee woiild like to make it emphatically clear why we undertook
public hearings on espionage activities within the Government at this time.
In February of 1947 the committee's investigations determined that certain
Government employees had engaged in espionage activities. We knew that
certain divisions of the Government were under rigid surveillance by the FBI.
The committee later became aware of the fact that a secret blue ribbon grand
jury had been convened in New York City to consider this Government espionage.
In deference to the functions of the grand jury, and of the investigative and
prosecuting agencies of the executive branch of the Government, the committee
took no action or pursued no investigation which would in anywise jeopjirdize
or interfere with the prosecution of the persons involved. Several hearings
whicli the committee had scheduled and was prepared to hold were postponed
because of the grand jury's investigation.
In 'July of 1948, however, when the grand jury recessed after sitting for
14 months without returning any indictments, or issuing a no true bill, or
making any other disposition concerning the persons involved in this espionage
activity, the conunittee felt compelled to bring to the attention of the American
people the information that it had before it.
When we called Elizabeth T. Bentley before our committee on July 31, we were
fully aware that her information and allegations had been thoroughly checked
by the FBI, and that they had been substantiated. When the committee called
before it Whittaker Chambers we knew that he had advised a high official of
the Government as early as 1939, of the information that he knew through
first-hand knowledge of the operations of the Communist apparatus within the
Government during the period 1934 through 1937. Because of the fact that the
Government files are not available to the committee, we could not determine
what official action had been taken on the allegations of Chambers. We were
in possession of no information that his story had ever been disproved or dis-
credited. We thought his testimony should be brought out to show that this
Connnunist penetration in the Government began as early as 1934, and that it
culminated in the actual operation of the espionage rings as described by Miss
Bentley.
HISS-CHAMBERS TESTIMONY
One of the most difficult problems which has faced the committee has been that
of resolving the conflict between the testimony submitted by Whittaker Chambers
and Alger Hiss. Chambers testified on August 3 that Hiss was a member of a
Communist underground group of Government workers during the period 1934^37
when Chambers was serving as a Communist Party functionary in Washington.
On August 5 Hiss categorically denied the charges of Chambers that he was or
ever had been a member of the Comnnmist Party, and furthermore denied ever
having known Chambers or '"having laid eyes ni)on him.'' As a result of exhaus-
tive investigation by the committee's staff and of hours of executive session testi-
mony from Hiss, Chambers, and all others who had information concerning the
conflicting stories. Hiss finally admitted on August 17 for the first time that he
actually had known Chambers as George Crosley, during the period in question.
As a result of the hearings and investigations wiiich have been conducted by
the canunittee to date, these facts have bt'en clearly established: (1) There is
no doubt whatever but that Chambers from 1931 to 1938 was a paid functionary
of the Communist Party and that from 1934 to 1937 he operated as a memb n- of the
Communist underground among Government workei's in Washington. (2) The
refusal of Nathan Witt, John Abt, Henry Collins, Lee Pressman, and Victor Perlo
to answer any questions coiu-erning their activitie.s as nieinbers of this group on
the ground of self-incrhnination and to answer as to whether or not they were
members of the Communist Party during that period is in itself strong corrobora-
tive evidence for Chambers' story. (3) By his own admission Hiss knew Cham-
bers for a period of at least 10 months during tlie period in (luestion and jiossibly
longer. It is also clear that Hiss knew Chambers very well as indicated In' hi-<
admission that he sublet his furnished apartment to him. that he met him on
various occasions for lunch, that on at least one occasion he gave him a ride to
New York from Washington, that for several days the Chambers family visited
COMMUNIST ESPIOXAGE 1353
ill the Hiss home and that he loaned money to Chambers, and that he gave him an
antomohile. (4) While admitting that he knew Chambers, Hiss still denies that
he knew that Chambers was a Communist, and that he. Hiss, was a member of
the Communist Party at any time.
Hiss testified on August 16 and 17 that at the time that he leased his apartment
to Chambers lie gave him a 1929 Ford automobile. In his testimony in the public
session on August 25, however, when confronted with documentary evidence which
committee investigators produced, that he actually had transferred the car in
1936 to the Cherner Motor Co. who the same day transferred it to one William
Eosen, Hi.ss changed his position on the car and testified in a manner which to the
committee seemed vague and evasive. He stated that he could not recall whether
or not he gave the car to Chambers or whether he loaned it to him. He could not
recall whether he gave it to him at the same time he sublet the apartment to him
or whether he did so several months later after Chambers had left the apartment.
He had no recollection whatever of having transferred the car to the Cherner
Motor Co. although he admitted that the signature on the transfer of title was his
own. He said that it was possible that he could have given the car to Chambers
and that Chambers could have given it back to him, and that he later could have
transferred it to the Cherner Motor Co. but that he could not recall what hap-
pened.
This much concerning the testimony in regard to the car can definitely be con-
cluded. Hiss stated on August 16 an<l 3 7 that he sold or gave the car to Crosley
(Chambers) at the same time that he sublet the apartment to him, and that at
the time that he did this he had another car which he himself was using. A check
of the records by the committee staff showed that Hiss did not acquire another
car until several months after the apartment transaction was concluded and
that he actually transferred the car over a year later to the Cherner Motor Co.
His vague and evasive testimony on this transaction raises a doubt as to other
portions of his testimony. In this connection it should be observed that on 19S
occasions Hiss qualified his answers to questions by the phrase "to the best of
my recollection" and similar qualifying phrases, while Chambers, on the other
hand, was for the most part forthright and emphatic in his answers to questions.
For example, Chamliers testified on August 7 that Hiss had expressed a desire
to transfer the automobile in question to a Communist Party worker and that he
effected this transfer by taking- the car to a used-car lot which was operated by
a Communist sympathizer, who in turn was to turn it over to a Communist organ-
i:'>er. To date the committee's investigations of the car transaction tend to bear
out Mr. Chamliers' version of what happened rather than Hiss' version. The
only evidence of the transfer of the car is of the transfer to the Cherner Motor
Co. in 1936 and to AVilliam Rosen to whom the car was transferred by Cherner.
AVhen questioned by the committee. Rosen refused to answer any questions con-
cerning the car or concerning whether he was a member of the Communist Party
on the ground of .self-incrimination. The committee will continue to pursue it^
investigations of this transaction.
In summary, the developments of the Hiss-Chambers controversy to date war-
]*ant the following conclusions :
1. Despite his denial that he has ever been a member of the Communist Party
or had any friends who were Communists, Hiss has admitted knowing and asso-
ciating with Harold Vv'are, Nathan Witt, John Abt, Henry Collins, Lee Pressman,
and Whittaker Chambers, all of whom are either known or admitted memi)ers of
the Communist Party, or who have refused to answer the question as to whether
they were members of the Communist Party on the ground of self-incrimination.
It stretches the credulity of the committee to believe that Hiss could have known
these people, including Chambers, as well as he did without at some time sus-
pecting that they were members of the Communist Party.
2. The committee believes that Mr. Hiss was not couipletelv forthright in his
testimony before the committee on August 5 when he failed to" tell the committee
that he noted a familiarity about the features of Whittaker Chambers when a
picture of Chambers was shown to him. He has since admitted that he told
several friends before the hearing of his noting this familiarity but when shown
a picture of Chambers he delibei'ately created the impression that the face meant
nothing to him whatever. It is hard to believe that Hiss could have known
Chambers as well as he admits he knew Crosley without being able to recognize
the picture which was shown him during the hearing of Augtist 5.
3. Hiss has either failed or refused to tell the committee the whole truth con-
cerning the disposition of his 1929 Ford automobile. It is inconceivable that a
man would not remember whether he had given a car away twice or at all and it is
1354 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
just as inconceivable that lie would not recall whether a person to whom he had
given the automobile had later returned it to him.
4. Despite the fact that Hiss says he knew Chambers under the name of Crosley,
a thorough investigation by the committee has failed to date to tind any person
who knew him by that name during the period in question. The committee be-
lieves that the Imrden is upon Hiss to establish that Chambers actually went
under the name of Crosley at the time he knew him and that Hiss knew Crosley
as a free-lance writer rather than as the admitted Communist functionary which
Chambers actually was during that period.
OBSTRUCTIVE TACTICS BY WHITE HOUSE
The committee's investigation of espionage among Government workers has
been hampered at every turn by the refusal of the executive branch of the Gov-
ernment to cooperate in any way with the investigation due to the President's
loyalty freeze order. Not only have the executive agencies refused to turn over
to the committee the loyalty tiles of the suspected membei's of the spy rings but
they have even gone so far as to refuse to turn over the employment records of
these individuals. The committee can see no excuse whatever for such arbitrary
action since it is obvious that turning over employment records would in nowise
involve disclosing sources of information or confidential data. Had the execu-
tive agencies of the Government cooperated with the committee in its investiga-
tion, there is no question but what the public would now have full information
concerning all the ramitications of the espionage rings. The committee has pro-
ceeded to obtain this information in every way possible and eventually will see
that it is presented to the public, but the committee deplores the fact that the
executive l)ranch of the Government will in no way aid the committee in its
efforts to protect the national security from those who are doing everything they
can to undermine and destroy it.
RESPONSIBILITY OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
The committee again calls upon the Attorney General of the United States
to vigorously enforce the existing espionage and other laws against tho.se who
are participating in the Communist conspiracy. These laws should be enforced
without regard to partisan or political considerations because the very security
of the Nation is at stake. The failure of the Attorney General to enforce the laws
as vigorously as he should has been in large part responsible for the growth and
power of the Communist conspiracy in the United States.
The committee again calls upon the Attorney General to forward to the Con-
gress at the earliest possible date recommendations for strengthening the espi-
onage laws so that they will be adequate to deal with the Communist conspiracy.
As long ago as February 5 the Attorney General appeared before the Legislative
Subcommittee of the Un-American Activities Committee and declared that amend-
ments to the espionage laws were essential in order to meet the new techniques
which had been developed by the Communists and other foreign agents. He
assured the committee that his recommendations would be forwarded to the Con-
gress at an early date. Members of this committee have repeatedly requested the
Attorney General since that time to give the Congress his recommendations for
needed changes of the espionage laws, and as yet have received no response what-
ever as to what changes are needed.
The Attorney General has from time to time inferred that those who partici-
pated in the Beutley spy ring might be immune from prosecution under present
laws because of the inadequacy of those laws. This investigation has shown
clearly that a well-organized and dangerous espionage ring operated in the
Government during the war ; and if present laws are inadequate, as the Attorne.v
General has inferred, to prosecute the members of this ring, it is the solemn
responsibility of the Attorney General to forward to the Congress immediately
his recommendations for needed changes in the espionage laws so that the national
security can be protected.
It is also imperative that the Attorney General proceed promptly to call the
New York special grand jury back into session to consider his recommendations on
the disposition of the evidence he has placed before it. The public has the clear
right to have this proceeding concluded by indictments where indicated, by a no
true bill where warranted, and by a full report by the Attorney General on his
disposition of the case.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1355
THE COMMUNIST UNDERGROUND APPARATUS
In the past the committee has dealt primarily with the open manifestations and
activity of the Communist Party. From time to time, however, witnesses have
called our attention to the existence of a far-reaching and ramified underground
organization. The Communist Party has been compared with a submarine with
its small periscope exposed and its destructive apparatus beneath the surface.
The testimony of Elizabeth Terrill Bentley and Whittaker Chambers has dis-
closed the existence of compact, conspiratorial rings consisting of Communists
within the Government. These rings maintained their contact with the Com-
munist Party through one designated person known to them only by a pseudonym.
This person in turn contacted the representative of the Soviet military intelli-
gence. Through this single contact the members of each ring paid their party
dues, received literature and instruction, and transmitted documents and infor-
mation. There is every reason to believe that the committee has merely scratched
the surface of these activities, that more of these groups exist than have been
disclosed by available witnesses, and that such groups are still operating within
the Government.
This condition provides a factual answer to those who raise the fear that appro-
priate legislation may drive the Communist Party underground. The party is in
fact and by its own choice already in large measure underground.
HOW COMMUNIST CONSPIRATORIAL TACTICS CHANGE
Throughout the world and throughout all time a prime facet of Communist
conspiracies has been the utilization of every device and protection the law of the
land provides to escape detection, to avoid punishment, and to utilize the safe-
guards provided to protect the innocent to establish their godless tyranny to
provide a dictatorship for all but the favored few.
This committee has witnessed the constantly changing practice of these devices
of deceit and this misuse of constitutional safeguards bv American Communists
since its first inception.
First, Communists sought to defy the subpena power of the Federal Govern-
ment as exercised by the regularly constituted committee of the Congress. Then
they resorted to slander, abusive invective, and diabolic mistruths about the
Congress as a whole and the members of congressional investigating committees
m particular. They defied the right and the power of Congress to investigate
their conspiratorial activities, seeking to protect themselves by untruthfully
describing themselves as a "political party."
For a time they refused to answer all pertinent questions before congressional
committees. This committee continued to try to change its tactics and improve
Its techniques to cope with the chameleonlike tactics of these Communist con-
spirators. Finally, in the Josephson case the Supreme Court upheld the right of
a congressional committee to cite for contempt a recalcitrant or contemptuous
witness. A long series of convictions and jail sentences has now resulted as a
consequence of cases cited for contempt by Congress.
Confronted with this situation, the Communist legal cell in America has lately
developed yet a new tactic. They now counsel their Communist clients to fall
back upon the fifth amendment and to resort to the statement, "I cannot answer
the question on the grounds of self-incrimination," when any qSestion is asked
Whereupon a forthright reply might expose their guilt or coiui3licity. Utilization
Of the grounds of self-incrimination carried to the extreme and unreasonable
extent now recommended by Communist counselors could conceivablv develop
to the point where all legislative investigation processes would be stymied com-
pletely and the Communists could cloak their conspiratorial and treasonable
activities in and out of Government by this device. This committee is now
studying methods of legally meeting this new challenge to constitutional au-
thority as It has studied past devices developed and utilized bv Communists for
similar purposes. It urges the cooperation and assistance of the best legal
counsel in America to aid it in arriving at a proper course of action' in the
interests of our national security in this uncertain and insecure juncture in our
Nation s history.
^1 ''^^^^^ommittee recognizes and desires to protect the constitutional right to use
the fifth amendment, but the Communist Party has now resorted to the extreme
of^ invoking this constitutional right as a cover-all for any and all activities
whether possible incrimination may or may not be involved. Thev have employed
1356 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
it as a device for refusing to provide the committee with any pertinent informa-
tion concerning Communist activities in America.
PRESENT OBSERVATIONS AND FINDINGS
This committee will issue a final report on the Communist espionage hearings
just as soon as it appears that all evidence has been gathered, verified, and
evaluated. In the meantime, this interim report is being issued to acquaint the
public with the salient features of what has transpired to date. For that reason,
too, the complete transcripts of all hearings to date are now in the hands of the
Government Printing Office and will be available' to the public at an early date.
We are not attempting in this report to preview the final findings which this
committee will make, since every day brings in new facts which we must explore
and exhaust. It is our purpose to ferret out and expose every available fact in
connection with the entire espionage conspiracy which the Communists have
established and operated in our executive agencies. Until that is done, other
interim reports may be issu.ed. The final report will not be delayed a day beyond
that necessary to complete the vast amount of investigation, interrogation, and
exploration which lies ahead of us and the staff investigators and subcommittees
which will move forward diligently on this vital matter.
As of this date, however, it is possible to record certain findings and observa-
tions which we believe will be helpful iu aiding the public and the Members of
Congress generally to understand the significance of wliat is being uncovered by
these hearings.
(1) It is now definitely established that during the late v<'ar and since then,
i there have been numerous Communist espionage rings at woric in our executive
' agencies which have worked with and through the American Communist Party
and its agents to relay to Russia vital information essential to our national
defense and security. Russian Communists have worked hand iu hand with
American Communists in these espionage activities.
(2) It is established beyond doubt that there is grave need for vigorovis,
persistent, and courageous continued investigation to determine the identity of
those guilty of past offenses, the methods employed in the past and at present
to m6ve carefully selected Communist agents and their sympathizers into key
positions of Goveriunent, and to break up all Communist espionage conspiracies
and activities prevailing at this time. These situations should command and
receive the most diligent attention of this committee, of the Attorney General's
office and the grand jury proceedings under his authority, and of the Federal
Bureau of Investigation. Tliey should proceed without partisanship and witliout
prejudice. It would be greatly in the public interest if they could receive the
support of the Wliite House rather than to be obstructed by it. This conuuittee
believes the eradication of espionage from the Federal Government should com-
mand the same cooperation between the White House and the Congress and
between the two major American political parties as has been utilized in the
formation and implementation of our bipartisan foreign policy.
(3) As evidence of this committee's sincerity in desiring to cooperate fully
with the executive agencies in the ferreting out of all disloyal and un-American
practices in Government during our committee's existence, w^e have opened our
files to the seourity officers and loyalty board representatives of the executive
departments. This year alone these representatives of the executive depart-
ments have paid OA'er 14,0(X) official visits to our file I'ooms. They have been
accorded full cooperation. Contrariwise, under the President's Executive order,
the tiles and records of the executive departmei^ts on all matters of loyalty and
security have been firndy closed, not only to our committee but to all committees
of Congress and to the general public. We hold that this is an unwholesome,
an unwise, and an unsafe situation.
(4) Since the committee has not completed its investigation, it is not pi'epared
at this time to forward to the Attorney General specific charges of perjury.
However, we have made available to tlie United States Attorney a complete
transcript of tlie hearing in this case and shall coritinue to keep him supplied
with the full text. The committee is not a prosecuting body ; that responsibility
rests with the Department of Justice and not this committee.
(r>) Investigations and hearings thus far completed offer convincing and com-
pelling reasons why new legislation is necessary to safeguard this free Republic
against tiie new and clever conspiratorial tactics developed by Communists to
promote and conceal their espionage activities and their disloyal purposes.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE ' 1357
Among the dangers which iiuist be met by new legishition are at least the
following, on the basis of existing evidence ; continuing investigations may de-
velop the need for yet additional legislative act on — -
(A) Communists must be required by law to register so that the present under-
gi-ound activities of the party will be subject to at least this additional weapon
of exposure and detection. This was a feature of H. R. 5852, approved by this
committee this year and overwhelmingly passed by the House on May 19.
(B) Communists should be denied by law the privilege" of employment by the
Federal Government, with adequate penalties on botli those seeking employment
as Communists and those knowingly giving appointive positions to Communists.
This also was a feature of H. R. 5852.
, (C) Passports should be denied American Communists who utilize these pass-
ports to further their conspiratorial plots against our American freedoms as they
confer with their co-conspirators abroad. This, too, was a feature of H. R. 5852.
(D) Legislation should be adopted making it more ditticult for unlimited
numbers of foreign Communists to enter the United States and making it easier
for this Government to deport or imprison Communist emissaries who utilize
their entrance into the United States to attack or undermine our American
institutions.
(E) The espionage laws of the United States should be amended or tightened
so as to provide appropriate penalties for Government officials who, without
authority, relay secret and significant information affecting our national security
to the representatives of any foreign power, friend or enemy, peacetime or war.
(F) Legislation should be adopted making it impossible for the executive
branch of the Government to deny to 'the legislative branch of the Government
necessary information dealing with the loyalty of employees of the Federal
Government.
(G) All of the provisions of H. R. 5852 should be adopted at the next session
of Congress, with certain amendments herein suggested, together with other
definitive language and provisions enabling it to cope with some aspects of Com-
munist activities, evasions, and tactics which the current investigations and
hearings are making apparent to all. Among these is the new Communist tactic
of evading detection and impeding the processes of legislative investigation
through an luiwarranted and unjustifiable misuse of the protections which the
fifth amendment to the Constitution rightfully provides for those unjustly ac-
cused or those decent, patriotic Americans who may at times find themselves
required to defend themselves in a court of law.
(H) Legislation should be adopted by the next session of Congress which
sharply increases the penalties for those convicted of contempt of Congress.
(I) During the course of these hearings, our committee was shocked to have
before it witnesses who hold Reserve commissions in our armed forces and who
refused to answer under oath whether or not they were, are, or ever have been
members of the Communist Party. It was equally shocking to have former
high officials of the Federal Government take such a position. The committee
therefore recommends that the armed services revoke the commission of any
officer who refuses to answer this question. The Communist Party is now ac-
cepted in all quarters as not being a political party in fact but a conspiracy
working for the overthrow of the Government of the United States. The com-
mittee further recommends that any official or employee of the Government who
will refuse to state under oath whether or not he is a member of the Communist
Party should be removed, and his name "flagged" against any future Govern-
ment service.
This report unanimously approved by a vote of the committee, August 27, 1948.
APPENDIX
The following is material wliich has been ordered by the committee
to be included in the record of these hearings :
Washington. D. C. August 13, 1948.
Hon. J. Parnbxl Thomas,
Chairman, Committee on Vn-American Activities,
House of Representatives,
Washington, D. C.
My Dear Mr. Thomas : Under date of August 12. the following statement was
given to the press :
"I have only recently returned to Washington, D. C, and wish to state that the
charges whicli I have learned through the newspapers Miss Bentley has made
against me are false. I have never knowingly associated with any person or
group engaged in espionage. I have not transmitted confidential information
except as authorized in the line of duty as a Government employee. I have never
heen and am not now a member of the Communist Party. To the best of my
knowledge, I have never met Miss Bentley or conmaunicated with her in any way."
I would appi'eciate an opportunity of appearing before your committee in order
that I might deny Miss Bentley's allegations or implications arising therefrom
concerning myself. It would further be appreciated if you would make this
communication a part of your committee's official records.
Very truly yours,
WlLUAM H. Tayt.os.
Hon. J. Parneix Thomas,
Chairman, Committee on Un-American Activities.
House of Representatives,
Washington, D. C.
Washington, D. C, September 2, 19Jf8.
My Dear Mr. Chairman: I was away from Washington at the time Elizabeth
T. Bentley appeared before the House Committee on Un-American Activities on
July 31, 1048, and made certain charges against me.
Upon my return to Washington, I issued a statement to the press denying in full
Miss Bentley's allegations. On August 13, 1948, I wrote to you, enclosing a copy
of my statement to the press, and offering to apijear before your committee to
deny such allegations in person. I believe my letter was received by your office
August 14, 1948, the day on which hearings in this matter were recessed until
September 7.
Two weeks after the hearings were recessed, the committee issued an interim
report, in which all of those named by Miss Bentley were listed. This list was
followed in the report by a statement as to those who had appeared before the
committee and had denied the accusations made by Miss Bentley, those who were
subpenaed and appeared in response to subpenas, those w'ho have not appeared,
tlK)se who refused to affirm or deny membership in the Communist Party, those
who refused to affirm or deny charges made against them by Miss Bentley, and
those who denied membership in the Communist Party. My name did not appear
under any of these classifications, nor was any reference to my denial made
in the report.
In view of my public denial of the accusations made against me and my offer to
appear voluntarily before the committee, I am desirous that the comniitte's public
records shall show these facts.
1358
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1359
In order to facilitate this matter, I am attaching an affidavit denying Miss
lientley's charges, which I have sworn to under oatli hefore a notary public. I
.should like to request that this affidavit be included in the public records of the
conmiittee.
Sincerely yours,
William H. Taylor.
Attachment.
DiSTEicT OF Columbia, ss:
Affidavit
William H. Taylor, being duly sworn, deposes and says as follows:
I was away from Washington when Miss Elizabeth T. Bentley tirst appeared
before the House Committee on Un-American Activities and made certain
charges against me. "When I returned to Washington and had an opportunity
of reading a transcript of Miss Beutley's testimony concerning me. I issued a
statement to the press denying her allegations. Under date of August 13 I sent
a copy of this press statement to the chairman of the committee, and stated that
I would appreciate the opportunity of appearing before the committee to deny
these charges in person.
I was born in Revelstoke, British Columbia, Canada, on March 30, 1906. I
came to the United States in 1928 upon graduation from the University of British
Columbia, to attend graduate classes in economics at the University of California
in Berkeley, under the terms of a fellowship that had been awarded me. I
^received my Ph. D. degree in economics from the University of California in 1935.
During the iieriod prior to 1941. I held several academic positions both in
American and Canadian universities. In 1937 I made my application for first
papers as an American citizen. I completed my waiting period and was nat-
uralized in March 1940.
My association with the Government began in January 1941. I had been on
sabbatical leave from the University of Hawaii, and while visiting Washington
I was offered an appointment with the Division of Monetary Research of the
Treasury Department as an economic analyst. My employment with that Divi-
sion continued until December 1946. when I resigned to accept a position with
tne international Monetary Fund. Of the 6 years I spent with the United States
Government, nearly 4 years were spent in Government service overseas.
It is my understanding that the charges made by Miss Bentley against me are
as follows :
1. That I am or was a member of the Communist Party ;
1*. That I participated as a member of an espionage group ; and
3. Tiiat I transmitted confidential information to persons with the intent that
such information would be delivered to agents of the Soviet Union.
I would like to answer each of these allegations in turn :
1. I am not now and never have been a member of the Communist Party, nor
have I ever been a member of any organizations or agencies which I had reason
to believe were affiliated with the Communist Party or sponsored by it.
2. In reply to Miss Bentley's second allegation, I have never been a member
of any espionage group. It is true that I know some of the people mentioned by
Miss Bentley. My relationship with these people was at all times one that was
proper and in keeping with my position as- a Government employee. Most of
those whom I knew were also employed by the Treasury Department.
3. As for the third allegation, I deny that I ever transmitted confidential in-
formation to any person with the intent that such information should be delivered
to agents of the Soviet Union. I deny that I ever transmitted confidential Gov-
ernment information or made information available to any person other than as
required or proper in my line of duty as a Government employee.
in connection with the allegations of Miss Bentley and my denial of them.
I wish to state that to the best of my knowledge I have never met Miss Bentley
or communicated with her in any way. I have studied newspaper photographs
of Miss Bentley carefully, and to the best of my knowledge I do not know this
woman under the name of Elizabeth T. Bentley or any other name. Her state-
ments are certainly not based on any personal relationship. So far as I know
she does ncit contend that she ever knew or met me. Miss Bentlev did state that
she "believed" I had been in Cliina and Portugal on missions "for the United
1380 COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE
States Government. It is of interest that, of the 15 mouths that I spent in
China, almost 9 'months were spent as a prisoner of the Japanese. I have never
been to Portugal.
WnxiAM H. Taylor.
Subscribed and svporn to before me this 3d day of September 1948.
[seal]
Sandy X. Demou.
Notari/ Public, District of Coliotihid.
House of Representatives,
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washifigton, September 8, J9Ji8.
Mr. William H. Taylor,
Washington, D. C.
Dear Mr. Taylor: I am in receipt of your letter of September 2 and the en-
closed affidavit. Pursuant to your request, I shall be glad to see that your letter
of August 13, as well as your letter of September 2 and the attached affidavit
are included in tlie printed record of the committee's hearings wliich will be
published sometime next week.
* * * At the present time, I am unable to advise you whether they intend
to call you before the committee. However, if you desire to be heard, the
committee will be glad to set a date for you.
Sincerely yours,
J. Parnell Thomas, Chairman.
Washington, U. C, August 30, 19-'i8.
Committee on Un-American A( vities.
United States House of Representatives, Washington, D. C.
Dear Sirs : In view of the publication of my name in your interim report
this week end as an individual contacted by Miss Elizabeth Bentley, I would
lil^e to take this opportunity to repeat the statement I made to the press several
weeks ago when my name first came up in the testimony, so that you may liave
it in your files.
This young lady, according to newspaper accounts, -says I never gave her
any secret information, so that makes it pretty clear.
I am not now and never have been a Communist, as everyone who knows me
will attest.
Some 0 years ago or so, when I was a news editor in the newsroom of the
Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs, editing shortwave broadcasts for Latin
America, a young lady interviewed me three or four times about our news
broadcasts and programs.
She said her name was Helen Johnson and that she did articles and research
for PM and other publications. We discussed pnly material that was avail-
able and given to hundreds of other newspaper reijorters and agencies, and that
could have been gotten by listening to the radio any day of the week. I never
handled any other liind of material, and would not have divulged any secret
material, even if I had.
I suppose this alleged Miss Johnson is Miss Bentley, but as she lierself says,
she never got anything secret from me.
During most of the time Miss Johnson-Bentley says she was working in an
espionage ring, I was a sei'geant in the United States Marine Corps. I fought
overseas in tlie Pacific and was wounded in action in defense of my country, my
home, and my family. I fouglit for the principles of democracy which this
Nation represents and which I cherisli, and am ready to defend once again, if
ever the call comes.
I have voluntarily supplied these facts to the Federal Bureau of Investigation
since the question came up this month, and I will be glad to furnish any addi-
tional information about myself you may need, or to testify as to these facts
under oath, if you think that will be useful.
I would be deeply appreciative if — in view of the publication of my name in
your interim report — you would be kind enough to include this letter or its sub-
stance in any future report you may publish.
COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE 1361
And if, for any reason, you should care to have me appear before your com-
mittee, I would be grateful if you would advise me before my departure. As you
linow, I am staff correspondent for the news magazine, United States News and
World Report, in Argentina and South America. I have been on vacation and
temporary assignment here in the United States, but I am being sent down to
resume my post in Buenos Aires in less than 2 weeks. I will be leaving Wash-
ington about September 9.
Thank you.
Very sincerely yours,
Bernard S. Redmont.
September 8, 1948.
Mr. Bernard S. Redmont,
Washington, D. C.
Dear Mr. Redmont : This office is in receipt of your letter of August 30 and,
pursuant to your request, the committee will be glad to place your letter in the
record of the proceedings of the committee in connection with the testimony of
Elizabeth T. Bentley.
These hearings will be printed within the next week, and I shall be glad to see
that you receive a copy.
Sincerely yours,
Robert E. Stripling, Chief Investigator,
September 3, 1948.
Representative J. Parnell Thomas,
Chairman, House Committee on Un-American Aetiinties,
House of Representatives, Washington, D. C.
Dear Sir : On August 13, 1948, I appeared before a special subcommittee of
your committee and, after making a .statenliiit' denying the allegation of Miss
Bentley concerning myself and answering questions of the subcommittee, I re-
quested permission to ask Miss Bentley questions concerning the statement she
had made about me. This was refused. Likewise, permission to make an oral
statement in place of the questions or to amend my original statement was refused.
1'he chairman suggested that I submit a written statement for the consideration
of the committee.
As the committee may recall, my original statement pointed out that the recent
hearings of the committee have many aspects of a trial by a criminal court. I
wished to ask questions of the person who had made the allegation in order to
secure at least part of the assistance which criminal courts provide to people
accused — namely, the right of cross-examination. In my opinion the submission
of questions in writing for the consideration of the committee is not in any sense
a substitute for cross-examination and I have therefore decided not to present
written questions.
Very truly yours,
Frank Coe.
80408 — 48 55
INDEX
Page
Abraham Lincoln Brigade 631, 633, 797
Abt, Jessica Smith (Mrs. John Abt) 1020, 1021
Abt, John J 518,
519, 525, 526, 538, 565-567, 575, 580, 643, 646, 651, 653, 687, 691,
692 803, 820, 821, 860, 880, 917, 920, 929, 930, 939, 970, 997,
1015-1022, 1024, 1036, 1145-1147, 1159, 1169, 1170, 1180, 1272,
1284, 1292, 1351-1353.
Academy of Science 796
Acheson, Dean 1163, 1294, 1296, 1297
Adamic, Louis 524, 525
Adler, Bernie 1231, 1242
Adler, Solomon . . 510,.
551, 592, 653, 685, 834, 839, 860, 879, 900, 909, 914, 917, 920^
1272, 1349, 1351.
Agricultural Adjustment Administration 513,.
567, 568, 638, 640-644, 652, 653, 819, 929, 930, 970, 1016, 1022,
1025, 1029-1032, 1146, 1163, 1202.
Agriculture Department 508,
515, 520, 612, 613, 618, 628, 641, 643, 645, 652, 654, 655, 703,
806, 819, 854, 883, 888, 907, 939, 957, 971, 1293, 1349, 1351.
Air Forces 517,.
522, 525, 550, 552, 688, 762-764, 767, 768, 835, 841, 842, 846,
1285, 1350.
'Al- (alias for Anatol Gromov) 712, 811-813, 1351
Aldrich, C. B 1317
Alexander, Will 857, 870
Amalgamated Clothing Workers of America 1016
American Association for the United Nations 533
American Association of International Law 929
American Civil Liberties Union 634
American Committee for Chinese War Orphans 736
American Committee for the Defense of Leon Trotsky 627
American Economic Association 823, 826
American Federation of Labor 1025
American League Against War and Fascism 504, 539
American League for Peace and Democracy 757
American Legion 613, 807, 1251
American Magazine 969, 993, 994, 1092
American Peace Mobilization 531, 823
American Pharmaceutical Association 1237
American Russian Institute 802
American Society of Rhodes Scholars . 735
American Tobacco Co 799
American University : 913
American Veterans Committee 1240, 1248, 1250, 1251
At Present 1 245
Audubon Society 991
Ault ■ 1256
Automat 1 284
Bachrach, Marian 1036
Bakerman , Bertram 778
Baldwin, C. B 602, 603, 857, 870
Balltin 1305
Baltimore City College 643
1363
80408—48 56
1364 INDEX
Page
Baltimore News-Post 1256
Baltimore Sun 800
Banister 1096, 1098, 1117
Bannerman, R. L 782, 793, 798
Baron, Addie (Mrs. William Rosen) 1302
Baron (Barone), Rose 1209, 1308, 1398
Barton, Edward S 1118, 1226, 1231, 1327, 1328
Barton, H. C 627
Bassie, Veet 682, 839
Bedacht, Max •_ 1278, 1279, 1284
Bentlev, Elizabeth Terrill (aliases: Helen; Marv; Helen Johns; Helen
Johnson; Helen Grant). 501-562, 571, 574, 575, 577, 579, 584, 585, 590-595,
599, 604-611. 635, 637, 682, 686-693, 697-699, 704, 707, 717-
725, 734, 737-759, 764-766, 768-770, 772, 774-776, 779-781,
784, 785, 789-892, 795, 810-816, 820, 822, 824, 825, 827, 831,
832, 836, 842-847, 852, 853, 855, 856, 863, 864, 874, 878, 882,
898, 899, 901, 911, 914, 916, 923, 924, 926, 932, 952, 1042, 1076,
1274, 1288, 1349-1352, 1354, 1355, 1358-1361.
Berle, Adolf A., Jr 580-582,
645, 649, 671, 989, 990, 1007, 1008, 1135, 1191, 1192, 1291-1300
Berle, Mrs. Adolf A., Jr _ 1007
Bialek 1118
Bialek, Mrs • 1124, 1225
Bialek, Aaron 1064
Bialek, Benjamin A 1055, 1056, 1059, 1060, 1064, 1124, 1141, 1211,
1213, 1224, 1228-1230, 1303, 1304, 1314-1317, 1323, 1332, 1340
Bialek, Mrs, Benjamin A 1058
Bialek, Dorothy (nee Dorothy Bick) 1241
Bialek, Robert 1064,
1141, 1217, 1225, 1228, 1233, 1240-1253, 1305, 1314, 1315, 1322
Bialek, Samuel 1232-1240, 1305, 1314
Bialek, Theodore 1064, 1233, 1314
Biberman, Herbert ^ 620, 621
Bick, Dorothy {see also Dorothy Bialek) 1241
Bickford's Cafeteria 812, 813
Bilbo, Theodore 6ilmore 516, 518, 534, 535, 578
Bill 527, 689-691, 812, 813
Biro-Bidjan Committee 1054, 1058, 1061, 1064, 1225, 1228, 1237
Black, A. G . 641
Blair, Emily Newell _ 606, 616
Blair, Harry W 606, 616, 767
Blaisdell, Thomas E., Jr 607
Bland, Irving 1231, 1242
Bloch, Louis 857, 870
Block, Lillian 1233
Bloom, Sol 1163
Bloor, Ella Reeve ("Mother") 565, 566, 627, 638, 639, 1037, 1180, 1279
Blumberg, Albert E 1345
Board of Economic Warfare ^ 507,
512, 520, 589, 601, 602, 604, 607, 615, 618, 628, 709, 854, 868,
869, 871-873, 882, 888, 916, 917, 921, 922, 1349, 1350.
Bone, Homer 1163
Boorstein, Isidore (Isador, Isadore; real name Goldberger; also known as
J. Peters) 569, 570, 620, 621, 685, 804,
998, 1020, 1028, 1033, 1041, 1054, 1063, 1193, 1211, 1269, 1324
Boris 870
Bowman, Isaiah 1164
Bradley, Fontaine... 1081, 1082, 1087
Brady, Mildred 626
Brady, Robert A 626
Brandstein, Richard (see also Richard Bransten and Bruce Mi-nton) 1 613
Bransten, Louise 526, 531, 538, 616, 621
Bransten, Richard (see also Richard Brandstein and Bruce Minton) . 531, 613, 616
Braver;m.an, Maurice Louis 1208, 1301, 1329, 1330, 1342-1346
Bretton Woods Conference 590, 600, 880
Brewer, Floyd Rhoda 1059, 1061, 1229-1232, 1325
INDEX 1365
Page
Browder, EarL-^^^ -^-^-^--^-^-^-^-^-^--^^^^^^^
627, 706, 729, 815, 834, 860, 1021, 1027, 1032, 1273, 1274, 1298.
Browder, Mrs. Earl ^25
Brvan, Charles ^44
Bryn Mawr College g||
BuSz:S^:::::::::::"524:¥2575>"3V584,"6^^^
Bullitt, William C 543, lOOS
Bunker Hill Pharmacy |^^^
Bureau of Employment Security . .-- y}_f, \^'*^
Bureau of Foreign and Domestic Commerce ol4, b/y, id&u
Bureau of Indian Affairs J280
Bureau of Internal Revenue jg^d
Bureau of Research and Information Service S^b i^sa
Burke, Gilda De Frank 701-704, 859, 867
Burhng, Edward B {fU
Riirsler Norman oio, oj^,
653, 835, 839, 860, 879, 900, 909, 914, 917, 920, 1272, 1349, 1351
Bnshev Fred E 625—642
Bvrnes,' James F.V/."/.::::"///-' 648; 657, 937, 971, 1133, 1134, 1163, 1297, 1349
California State Relief Administration - ----- - -508 589
Cammer, Harold 1015-1020, 1022, 1023, 1028, 1029 1031
Cantril, Hadlev_-"- '^ 'ilnl
Cantwell (see also David Whittaker Chambers) 1194
Cantwell, Robert 119/
Carl (alias for David Whittaker Chambers) ob^,
670, 803-805, 808-810, 821, 881, 885, 886, 894, 924, 928, 931, 938,
940, 941, 949, 990, 991, 1020, 1024, 1033, 1039, 1102, 1159, 1171,
1193, 1194, 1199, 1205, 1263, 1271, 1277, 1286, 1349.
Carnegie Endowment for International Peace 645, 646
Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching 968
Carnegie Foundation for World Peace 579, 1132, 1134
Carnegie Institute 967
Carter 73b
Carter, Edward C . 751
X<,e ' 1256, 1259, 1260
catha^ne::::::::::::::::::::::::::: 527, 528, 69o
Central Tennis Supplies oOb
Chambers A 119b
Chambers', David Whittaker (see also Carl; Cantwell; J. Vivian Chambers;
Dwyer; George Crosley) 563,
585, 638, 642, 643, 646 648, 651, 661-672, 683, 699, 803-805,
808-810, 820-823, 878, 881, 885, 886, 893, 898, 901, 906, 924,
928-933, 936-938, 940, 941, 945-956, 959, 963, 965, 966
968-970, 972, 975-1001, 1003 1009, 1011-1013, 1019, 1023,
1024, 1028, 1032, 1033, 1035, 1036, 1039, 1048, 1051, 1075-1080,
1089, 1092, 1108, 1110, 1115, 1125-1132, 1135-1138, 1140, 1141,
1145, 1148-1153, 1155, 1157, 1158, 1160-1162, 1164-1168, 1170,
1171, 1173, 1271, 1277-1290, 1295, 1296, 1298, 1349-1355
Chambers, Mrs. David Whittaker 1051, 1153, 1261
Chambers, J 1 196
Chambers, J. Vivian (see also David Whittaker Chambers) :-- 1198, 1286
Chambers, Robert 937
Charlie 524, 527
Chattanooga News 781, 782, 800
Cherner-Brewer Auto Sales 1059, 1227, 1230, 1321
Cherner, Henrv 1227-1229, 1303, 1307, 1315, 1319-1328
Cherner, Joseph 1052-1060, 1212, 1227, 1239, 1273, 1303, 1307, 1315, 1328
Cherner, Leon 1223-1229, 1303, 1307, 1315
Cherner Motor Co 1059-1061,
1063-1069, 1072-1074, 1110-1116, 1118, 1119, 1121, 1123, 1125,
1158, 1160, 1212. 1213. 1223-1228. 1238. 1321, 1322, 1324. 1326.
1335. 1353.
1366 INDEX
Page
Chiang Kai-shek 553, 579, 852, 856, 874, 1175
Childs Restaurant 1 284
China Aid Council 736
Christgau, Victor A 641
Citizens Committee on Displaced Persons 533
Civil Service Commission 520, 613-619, 625,
626, 629-631, 633, 635-638, 854, 855, 866, 872-874, 882, 885
Civil Service Commission, Loyalty Review Board 635-637, 640
Civil Service Committee 639
Civilian Defense 688
Civilian Production Administration 512
Clark, Bennett 1163
Clark, Tom C 502, 828, 1354
Clavton, William 1163
Cobb 962
Cobb, Cully A 641
Cobb School 962
Coddington, John 1238, 1247
Coe, (Virginius) Frank 517, 592, 606, 653,
702, 835, 839, 860, 879, 889, 900, 910, 914-928, 1349, 1351, 1361
Cohen, Harry L . 1118, 1328
Cole. Lester 621
Collier 1281
Collins, Henry H 566-569,
571, 575, 576, 580, 643, 651, 682, 801-810, 833, 876, 880, 924,
929-931, 938-941, 962, 970, 991, 997, 1021, 1023, 1024, 1032, 1036,
1037, 1145-1147, 1159, 1169-1172, 1180-1182, 1202, 1271, 1272,
1292, 1351-1353.
Collins Manufacturing Co 806
Colodny, Samuel 1242, 1305
Colodny's Beverage Trade Service 1240
Columbia College 699
Columbia University 504, 512,
536, 539, 549-551, 580, 699, 840, 877, 907, 909, 913, 1030, 1196
Commerce Department 509,
512, 514, 515, 536, 544, 546, 613, 623, 624, 679, 861, 908, 1350
Committee for Industrial Organization 567
Committee for Reciprocity Information 681
Common Council for American Unity 533
Commonwealth Club, San Francisco 614
Communis! , The 620
Communist Party : A Manual on Organization 620
Communist Party, Fillmore section, San Francisco 614
Communist Party of the Soviet Union 506
Communist Political Association 622, 717
Communist School of Revolution 506
Commuinst Trade-Union Educational League 627
Conference for Progressive Labor Action 627
Congress of Industrial Organizations 567, 1025, 1027, 1293
Connally, Tom 1163
Coordinating Board of Jewish Organizations 533
Coordinator of Information 756
Coordinator of Inter- American Affairs, Office of 531,
532, 778, 781, 786, 1350, 1360
Corcoran-Cohen 579
Corcoran, Tommy 579, 582
Cotton (see also Mrs. Donald Hiss) 670
Courtney 1325
Crosley, G. E 1093
Crosley, George {see also David Whittaker Chambers) 955-1001,
1011-1013, 1020, 1024, 1033, 1039, 1076-1178, 1349, 1352-1354
Cummings, Homer 1021, 1022
Curley , James Michael 522
Currie, Alice Eisenhauer 852
INDEX 1367
Page
Currie, Lauchlin D 519-521, 534, 539, 546, 552, 553, 556-558, 592, 601-
603, 606, 617, 619, 653, 685, 703, 762, 767, 834, 839, 841, 851-877,
879, 900, 910, 914, 917, 918, 921, 1036, 1272, 1349, 1351.
Currie, Mrs. Lauchlin D 858
Daily Worker 524, 572, 620, 622, 627, 634, 860,
1003, 1004, 1036, 1176, 1188, 1197, 1244, 1271, 1278, 1298, 1308, 1351
Darcy, Sam 614
Dartmouth College 536
Davis, Benjamin 537
Davis, Chester C 641, 652, 653, 1025, 1164
Davis, John F 1076, 1077, 1080, 1081, 1083, 1110
Davis, Paul . 1318
Demon, Sandy X 1 360
Dennis, Eugene 1037
De Paul University 1141, 1252
Despres, Emil (Emile) 627, 877
Dewev, Thomas E 502
Diamond, Ike 1243
Dies, Martin 617, 626
Dilly {see also Mrs. Priscilla Hiss) 664, 960
District of Columbia Pharmaceutical Association 860, 1237
Doering, Otto C, Jr 757-759
Doering, Otto C, Sr 757
Dollard, Charles 975, 977, 995, 996, 1011
Donovan, William 529, 720, 723, 724, 727, 735, 747, 748, 757, 1350
Dorsev, D. H 1043
Drurv College 607, 768
Drusilla 961
Dubow, Mitchell A 1342
Duclos, Jacques 543
Dulles, John Foster 645, 659, 1133, 1135, 1164, 1349
Dumbarton Oaks 565, 1164
Dumbarton Theater 719
Dunn, Robert B 1037
Dwver (see also David Whittaker Chambers) 1194
Eariv, Steve 520, 557
Eastman, Max 1 299
Eaton, Charles 1163
Eccles, Marriner 852
Eckhardt . 1239
Economic Affairs Mission 536
Edwards 1 1 326
Eight Twenty-three Restaurant 719, 726
Eisenhower, Dwight D 551
Eisler, Gerhart 505, 506, 591, 621, 683, 708, 834, 1021, 1028, 1032, 1037
Electric Bond & Share Co 1016
Embick, Stanley 1164
Emerson, Thomas I 630
Engel & Hevenor Co 995
Epstein, Jesse 636
Erhardt, Jack . 786, 787
Evans 961
Evans, Robert 11 77
Ewald (aliases: Robinson; Rubin) 1281, 1282
Executive branch of the Government 1352, 1354, 1356
Executive Office of the President- _ 519-521, 539, 546, 552, 853, 854, 856, 867, 1349
Export-Import Bank 929
Fahy, Charles 1030, 1164
Fahy, Jack B 786, 787, 797
Fair Employment Practice Committee 548, 570, 571, 579, 632
Fairchild, Muir 11 64
Fansler, Priscilla (see also Mrs. Alger Hiss) 669
Farley, James A 642
Farm Security Administration 507, 508,
588, 589, 601, 602, 606, 612, 613, 618, 702, 857, 870, 908, 1349
1368 INDEX
Page
Farrell, George A 641
Farrell, Irvin Augustus 1316-1319
Fay, George Morris 817, 818, 828, 950
Federal Bureau of Investigation 541,
542, 555, 559-561, 582, 590, 599, 604, 613, 636-639, 647-649, 671,
744, 745, 773, 793, 807, 808, 810, 812-816, 854, 862, 871, 874, 885,
902, 903, 936, 971, 1039, 1133, 1136, 1293, 1295, 1298, 1347, 1349,
1352, 1356, 1360.
Federal Home Loan Bank Board 512
Federal Public Housing Authority 636
Federal Public Housing Committee 636
Federal Research Project 1286
Federal Reserve Act 624
Federal Reserve Board 852, 856, 859, 877, 901
Federal Security Agency 918
Feltus, Randolph . _, 787, 799, 800
Ferguson, Homer 532
Field, Frederick V 751,752
Field, Noel 1265
Flore, Alf 1217
Fish, Hamilton 640
Fitzgerald, Edward J 513,
514, 525, 538, 592, 653, 686, 687, 692, 821, 837, 839, 860, 910, 917,
921, 1273, 1350, 1351.
Fitzgerald, Mrs. Edward J 910
Flemming, Arthur S 625-631
Fletcher 552
Fletcher, Henry 1164
Fordham University . 1351
Foreign Economic Administration 512,
517, 519, 607, 852, 853, 856, 860, 861, 908, 910, 916-918, 921, 922,
1349, 1350.
Foreign Registration Act 1295, 1298
Foreman, Clark 576
Forer, Joseph 673, 674, 1342
Forrestal, .James V 871
Foster, William Z 502, 528, 537, 543, 572, 627, 1037
Foxcroft School 504
Frank 705-707,711-713,1351
Frank, Jerome N 640-644, 652, 653, 1025, 1163
Frank, Nelson 1003-1005, 1189
Frankfurter, Felix 642, 644, 1294
Freeman, Joseph 1177
Friedman, Irving S 767
Friedman, John (alias for Jacob Golos) 780, 784, 785
Friends School 962, 1161
Fuhr, Mrs. Lee 504
Gardner Motor Co 1238
Gaston, Herbert 882, 883, 888, 896-899
Gav, Edmund 840
Geilert, Hugo 1177
General Motors 799
George 712
George School 962
George Washington University ^ 1236, 1311
Georgetown Pharmacy 719, 722
Gerson, Simon 1027
Gerstein, Marvin 1243, 1244, 1247, 1248, 1250, 1252
Gertler, Henrv J 1063-1071, 1225, 1320, 1326, 1328
Gibb, Isabelle Scott (Mrs. Duncan Chaplin Lee) 716
Gitlow, Benjamin 1299
Glasser, Harold 515, 575, 592, 654, 686,
702, 821, 860, 885, 900, 902, 903, 910, 917, 821, 1273, 1350, 1351
Glasser, Myra 515
Glasser, Rachel Olswang (Mrs. Myra Glasser) 515
Gold, Bela {see also William J. Gold) 585,
702, 766, 860, 880, 903, 906-912, 914, 917, 1272, 1349, 1351
INDEX 1369
Page
Gold, Michael 1177
Gold, Sonia S. (Mrs. Bela Gold) 517, 585, 592, 654,
682, 835, 860, 879, 900, 903, 912-915, 917, 921, 1272, 1349, 1351
Gold, William J. (see also Bela Gold) 517,
585, 592, 682, 766, 821, 900, 912, 914, 1272, 1349
Goldberg, Alexander (real name Goldberger, also known as J. Peters)^_ 1041, 1064
Goldberger (aliases: J. Peters; J. V. Peters; Alexander Goldberger; Alex-
ander Goldberg; Goldenweiss; Jack Roberts; Steve Lapin; Pete Stevens;
Steve Miller; Isador (Isidore) Boorstein; Steve Lapur; Alexander
Stevens) 569, 930
Goldberger, Alexander (also known as J. Peters) 620
Goldenweiss (real name Goldberger, also known as J. Peters) 569, 930
GoUobin, Ira 675, 677, 820
Golos, Jacob N. (alias John Friedman) 505,
506, 509, 515, 522-528, 531, 540, 541, 551, 554, 591, 604, 608, 654,
690, 706, 719, 723, 724, 726, 727, 739, 740, 750, 751, 755, 757, 764,
780, 781, 784, 785, 788, 789, 791, 861, 917, 1040, 1042, 1273,
1274, 1351, 1352.
Graham, Robert A 680, 688
Grant, Helen (alias for Elizabeth Terrill Bentley) 718, 719, 772
Grant, Morton 621
Gra V , Joe 654
Green, William 1025. 1027
Greenberg, Michael 534, 630, 654, 861, 917, 921, 1273,1350
Greenfield, R. E 615
Greg 707
Gregg, Joseph B 531,
532, 538, 592, 654, 784, 821, 837, 861, 910, 917, 1273, 1350, 1351
Gregg, Mrs. Joseph B. (Rose; Ruth) 532, 538, 539, 838, 1351
Gregory, Al 898
Greig ■ 707
Grew, Joseph , 1163
Grig 711, 712
Griffith, Ernest S 1092, 1093
Gromov, Anatol (alias Al) 541, 542, 813, 857-859
Gulick, Luther __ 858
Gullender, Elsie 987. 1091, 1092
H. L. Rust & Co _ 958
H. R. 5852 (Mundt-Nixon Bill) 502, 558, 582, 1357
Hackworth, Green _ _ 1164
Halperin, Maurice. 530-533. 538, 593, 654, 784, 838, 861, 910, 918, 921, 1273, 1350
Harris, Lou 621
Harris, Vera _" 621
Harry Bridges Defense Committee 634
Harvard Law School Association 929
Harvard Universitv 515
533, 552, 607, 643, 644, 768, 806, 841, 852, 855, 877, 879, 929, 1261
Helen (see also Elizabeth Terrill Bentlev) 530, 540, 689, 731, 732, 747, 772, 846
Henderson, Leon 626, 627, 1040
Henderson, Lloyd 1008
Henry 712
Hepburn, Arthur 11 64
Herbst, Josephine 630
Herzog's Restaurant 542
Hill (Hilly) (see o7so Alger Hiss) _ 664,960
Hilldring, John H 525, 526, 560', 562
Hilmer & Davis : 1077
Hiss, Alger (see aZso Hill (Hillv)) __, _ _ _ .._" _ 565-568
572, 576, 577, '579, 580, 586, 592, 6'3'8, 64"f-6"5"9', 661-663, 665, 671^
682, 683, 804, 809, 821, 823, 861, 880, 886, 893, 910, 918, 921, 928-
933, 935-1001, 1008, 1011, 1013, 1019, 1023, 1024, 1030, 1032, 1036-
^ 1040, 1047, 1049-1053, 1061, 1062, 1064, 1066-1176, 1178-1185,
1187, 1189-1193, 1195, 1198, 1199, 1201, 1202, 1205, 1212, 1213,
1226, 12.55-1258, 1260-1263, 1271, 1277, 1280, 1284, 1288, 1292-
1297, 1299, 1306, 1315, 1326, 1349, 1351-1354.
1370 INDEX
Page
Hiss, Anthony 942, 943
Hiss, Donald 566-568,
579, 582, 646, 650, 670, 683, 804, 821, 823, 880, 928-933, 939, 997,
1008, 1021, 1023, 1024, 1033, 1036, 1038, 1092, 1145, 1148, 1157,
1175, 1180, 1192, 1202, 1272, 1284, 1292-1294, 1351
Hiss, Mrs. Donald (nee Cotton) 572, 650
Hiss, Priscilla (Mrs. Alger Hiss; see also Dilly, Pross, and Fansler) 572,
650, 668, 942, 943, 955, 960, 964, 976, 984, 986, 999-1000, 1001,
1011-1013, 1044, 1045, 1047, 1049-1052, 1085, 1107, 1155, 1183,
1190, 1193, 1196, 1198, 1201, 1202, 1257, 1258, 1263, 1272, 1284
Hitchcock 979
Hitler, Adolf 1006, 1007
Hobson, Thayer 664, 668, 670, 942, 962, 1161, 1167
Hobson, Timothy 664, 942-944, 962, 1045
Hockman, Dorothy 1250
Hockman, Paul 1250
Holmes, Oliver Wendell 644, 1261
Home Owners' Loan Corporation 679, 699
Hoover, J. Edgar 562, 648, 727, 937, 1338
Hopkins, Harry L 567
Hornbeck, Stanley 11 64
Horsky , Charles. 1 930
House Committee on Foreign Affairs _- 579, 1157, 1175
House Committee on Interstate Migration 802, 806, 913, 1349
Howe, Frederic C 640
Hudson, Rov 1037, 1280, 1281
Hull , Cordell 1 1 63
Hunter College 913
Hutson, J. B 641
Hvde, Mark 1 156, 1251
I Was a Soviet Worker 620
In Fact 1245
Import-Export Bank 929
Industrial Workers of the World 1178
Institute for Pacific Relations 529, 736, 751, 752
Institute of Social and Religious Research 513
Interim Report 1347-1357
International Development Company 606
International Governmental Committee on Refugees 684, 807
International Labor Defense 632, 633
International Monetary Fund 653, 656, 878, 916, 919
International Trade Organization 681
International Workers Order : 1278
Intourist, Inc 505, 506, 527
Isemann, W. E 1087
Italian Government Propaganda Ministry 505
Italian Library of Information 505, 506
Jack , 560, 689-690, 691, 693, 811, 812, 1351
Jackson, Gardner 640, 653
Jaff ee, Bernard 835
Jeffers, Mrs. W. M._-. 1087
Johns, Helen (alias for Elizabeth Terrill Bentley) 779, 1360
Johns Hopkins University 644, 1164
Johnson, Helen (alias for Elizabeth Terrill Bentley) 772, 1360
Johnston, Joseph 11 74
Joint Anti-Fascist Refugee Committee 539
Joseph, J. Julius (Julius J.) 530, 654, 821, 861, 918, 921, 1273, 1350
Joseph, Mrs. J. Julius (Mrs. Julius J. Joseph) 530
Josephson, Leon 1355
Justice Department 518,
556, 568, 570, 596, 628, 754, 799, 930, 952, 987, 1070-1072, 1092,
1116, 1295, 1347, 1349, 1351, 1354, 1356.
Kagel, Sam 614
Kaplan, Irving 518, 655, 834, 838, 839, 858,
861, 880, 900, 910, 914, 918, 921, 1286-1287, 1288, 1350, 1351
Kardiner, Abram 944
Keeler, Leonardo 965, 966
Keeney, Phillip O 703
INDEX
1371
Page
Kilgore, Harley Martin 513, 516, 578, 802.2806-^819
King, Carol g^'j gg,^
Klein, Alfred - gQg' ygy
Koral, Gilbert, Roy '"^
Koral, Richard Lee
Tvrnmpr Charles (alias for Charles Krevitsky) oi^,
Kramer, t harle. |a_as ^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^
643, 646, 65i, 654, 685-687, 692, 697, 698, 804, 818-835, 861,
904 905 910 914 918, 921, 928, 929, 940, 970, 1020, 1023,
1024 1028, 1032, 1036, i037, 1145,' 1147, 1159, 1180, 1202, 1273,
1284^ 1292, 1350, 1351.
Xrevitskv, Charles (alias Charles K^mer) ---------------- y-y---^^^ 513
520, 566, 578, 581, 823, 1036, 1037, 1273, 1351
Krivitskv, Walter 1005, 1006, 1265
Krumbein Training School 9|"
LSrrDtart'4?r':::::;;::::;::::::::-5f5767^
I add D M -- -- -- - 9ci/, lid*
La Follette, Robert M 1016, 1020
Lamberton, Harry C °^2
Landon School T"-f^':"\ «on
Lapin, Steve (real name Goldberger, also known as J. Peters) b2U
Lapur, Steven (real name Goldberger, also known as J. Peters) b2U
Latimer, Owen 575
Lavichlin Currie &Co °^^
Lawson, John Howard o^^
Lawyers Guild ^ft
League of Nations, International Labor Office i^oo
League of Women Shoppers o^o
Leahv, Edwin A — ^,L*;i
Leahy, William D 4^4
Lee Die '
Lee! Duncan' Chaplin-- 529, 530, 593, 655, 715-759, 861, 918, 1273, 1350-1352
Lee, Mrs. Duncan Chaplin (nee Isabelle Scott ^ibb)--^--^-^----^--^-^-^---^^ 7^1^6^
Lenin '-- 572, 581, 596, 'l203
Lever, E. J . 62^
T pT7iri C^flT'l ' — o I 4
Levine, Isaac Don"-"-V.V-V--V 580, "989", 990, 1005-1009, 1135, 1191, 1192, 1292
Liberal Partv of New York State 580
Lichtenstein 1141, 1156
Lichtenstein, Mary Ann - - - - r„ J^t?
Lichtenstein, Samuel 10o4, 1216, 1249, 1251
Life magazine 1 188
Lincoln School 504
Lippmann, Walter 717, 725
Liptzen, Samuel oO.o, o06
Lischinskv, Solomon <5l5.
516, 686, 861, 910, 918, 922, 1273, 1350, 1351
London Daily Guardian 779, 800
Long, Breckenridge 1 164
Longchamps Restaurant 731, 738, 739
Lovestone, Jay 572
Lovestoneites 572, 573
Loyalty Rating Board 628, 629
Lubetnitch, George 729
Lustine-Nicholson 1238
Macv Bros 606
Magdoff, Harry 514, 515, 525, 535,
^ 538, 593, 655, 685, 692, 702, 839, 861, 910, 918, 922, 1273, 1350
Mainstream 1 245
Maison Blanche 1210
Manchester Guardian 779, 800
Mandel, Ben 1299
1372 INDEX
Page
Marbury, William 1083
Maritime Commission, United States 688
Maritime Labor Board 508, 588, 589, 612, 614, 854, 857, 870
Marks, Leroy 1327
Marsalka, John , 784
Marshall, George . 657
Martin's Restaurant 719, 722, 738, 739
Marx, Karl 564, 581, 1156, 1203
Mary (alias for Elizabeth Terrill Bentlev) 560, 811, 813, 846
Marzani, Carl Aldo 579, 625, 627, 628, 630, 659, 864, 876, 1175
Mason, Edward S 627
Massachusetts Institute of Technology 855
Masters, Gregory (alias for Nathan Gregory Silvermaster) 615
Masters, Nathan (alias for Nathan Gregory Silvermaster) 615
Maxwell & Tennyson 1317
McAvoy, Thomas .. 885
Mclntvre, Marvin 519, 520, 557, 580, 1007, 1192, 1292
McRevnolds, William H 539
Melcher, Daniel 539
Mellett, Lowell 539
Mendenhall, James P 504
Mensh, Samuel A 1060-1064, 1326, 1328
Merriam 1124
Mevers, Bennett 836, 847
Mileham, Teresa B._ 1085
Miles River Yacht Club of Maryland ._..: 929
Militarv Intelligence 601, 854, 865, 872
Miller, Robert Talbot 53 1 ,
655, 683, 778-800, 861, 864, 910, 918, 922, 1273, 1350-1352
Miller, Mis. Robert Talbot (nee Jenny Levy) 783, 791, 795, 796
Miller, Steve (real name Goldberger, also known as J. Peters) 620, 622, 1041
Miller, Watson B 620, 1193
Minor, Robert 572, 860, 1037, 1177
Minton, Bruce (see also Richard Brandstein and Richard Bransten) 531,
613, 616
Mitchell, George 588
Molotov 1006
Moore 1295
Morgenthau, Henry, Jr 606, 890, 902, 904, 1175
Morrow, William 664
Moscow Daily News 781, 783, 795, 796, 800
Mover, L. A 634
Mundt, Mrs. Karl 1175
Mundt-Nixon Bill 502, 558, 582, 1357
Murphv, Frank 1022
Murphy, Raymond 782, 1266
Murrav, James E 806
Murrav, Phillip 1025, 1027
NKVD 508, 529, 615, 616, 727, 729, 748, 1042
National Archives 607
National Bureau of Economic Research - 840
National Housing Administration 512
National Labor Relations Board 513,
565, 567, 819, 1019, 1029, 1037, 1202, 1324, 1350, 1351
National Negro Congress 860
National Recovery Administration '"^l^,
606, 678, 679, 699, 762, 768, 802, 806, 836, 841, 1351
National research project 1286
National Youth Administration 513, 819
Natural Resources Planning Board 536
Naval Intelligence 601-603, 619
Navy Department , 638, 688
Nelson, Steve 683
New Council of American Business 515
New Masses 531, 613, 616, 1004, 1176, 1177, 1188, 1197, 1245, 1351
New York City Bar Association '35
New York Public Librarv 570
INDEX 1373
Page
New York University 513, 819, 907
Newhouse, Edward 526
Newman, James Roy 539
Niles, David K 521, 539, 553
North African Affairs Committee 515, 1350
Nowell, William 506
Nve, Gerald P 645, 1117, 1163
OGPU 613-616, 618
Office of Emergency Management 514, 1350
Office of Price Administration 512,
513, 536, 679, 680, 685, 699, 819, 861, 1342, 1350, 1351
Office of Strategic Services 513, 525, 529, 530, 532, 533, 624, 720, 723-725,
727-729, 734, 735, 741, 743, 746, 748, 749, 751, 756-759, 1040, 1350
100 Things You Should Know About Communism in the U. S. A 552
Operation Subsistence --- 1247, 1248, 1252
Order of the Red Star 812
Oscar - 1006
Oseas, Pepper & Segal 1083
Ottenberg, Miriam 1149
Oxford University 716-735
PM 1360
Palmer, Dewev H 626
Park, WillardZ. (William Z.) 531, 655, 861, 910, 918, 1273, 1350
Pasternak 1043, 1051
Patterson, Robert P 590,
601, 619, 628, 629, 854, 859, 864-866, 868, 871, 872, 875, 876
Pearson, Drew :. 1296
Peek, George N 641, 644, 652, 1025
Pennsvlvania Railroad Station 1026
Peoples Drug Store _. 1316, 1318
Peoples Junior College 515
Pepper, Claude 513, 516, 520, 578, 819, 833, 834
Perkins, Milo 628, 854, 866, 868, 872
Perlo Group 687, 692, 1288, 1350
Perlo, Rachel (Mrs. Samuel Perlo) . 512
Perlo, Samuel 512
Perlo, Victor 511-515,
518, 521, 525, 529, 538, 566, 571, 575, 580, 592, 643, 646, 651, 655,
675, 677-701, 804, 821, 823, 841, 848, 849, 861, 874, 881, 883-885,
891-893, 901, 905, 910, 914, 918, 922, 928, 929, 940, 1021, 1023,
1024, 1032, 1036, 1037, 1076, 1145-1147, 1180, 1272, 1273, 1284,
1292, 1350-1352.
Peter (real name Goldberger; also known as J. Peters) 1280
Peters, J. (real name Goldberger; also known as J. V. Peters, Alexander
Goldberger, Roberts, Steve Lapin, Pete Stevens, Steve Miller, Isador
Boorstein, Steven Lapur, Alexander Stevens) 569,
570, 575, 576, 620-622, 662-664, 666, 685, 804, 930, 938, 941, 991,
997, 998, 1020, 1028, 1033, 1036, 1037, 1040 1042, 1053, 1054,
1063, 1064, 1110, 1178, 1180, 1184, 1193, 1203, 1211, 1268-1271,
1279, 1282, 1287, 1306, 1315, 1323, 1351.
Peters, J. V. (real name Goldberger, also known as J. Peters) 620
Petherbridge, Mary 1087
Petworth Pharmacy 1056, 1064, 1225, 1233, 1314, 1316, 1317, 1322
Peurif ov, John 1176
Philips "Exeter Academv 767, 768
Phillips, Frank S 1 704
Pinchot, Mrs. Gifford 859, 860
Plain Talk 580. 1005
Polish Supplv Mission 929, 930
Politburo 1280
Political Action Committee 518
Political Affairs •_ 1 246
Pope, James 1163
Pope, Martha 954, 955, 960, l643-1052, 1109
Posner 1 1321
Praeger, Leo 674, 675, 705
President's Committee on Relief Organizations 746
1374 INDEX
Page
Pressman, Lee 565-567, 576, 580, 613, 616, 638, 643,
646, 648, 649, 651-653, 702, 804, 821, 823, 880, 928-931, 937,
939, 970, 997, 1021-1028, 1030, 1032, 1036, 1145-1147, 1159,
1169,1170,1180,1202, 1272, 1284, 1292-1293, 1294, 1351-1353
Price, Mary 529, 530, 687, 689, 716, 717, 719,
720, 724-727, 729-731, 741, 749, 750, 754-757, 759, 821, 1351
Price, Mildred 529, 655, 725, 755, 859, 860, 918
Princeton University 806
Progressive Party 567, 678, 699, 819, 833, 1016, 1244, 1250
Pross (Prossy) (Mrs. Alger Hiss) 664, 960
Public Utilities Holding Company Act 1016
Puzrin, Nathan 1321, 1327
Railroad Retirement Board 517, 552, 841, 855, 873, 1285, 1286, 1350
Rand School 1 262
Randall H. Hagner & Co 1086, f087, 1090
Rankin, John 1017, 1023, 1031
Raushenbush, Steve 987, 1091, 1092, 1142
Recht, Charles 784
Reconstruction Finance Corporation 509, 589
Red Star Line 1 341
Redmont, Bernards 532, 655, 1273, 1350, 1360, 1361
Reed, Stanley 645, 1163
Rees, Edward H 639, 640
Rein, David 587, 761, 762, 1345
Remington, Frederick Clement 536
Remington, Lillian Sutherland (Mrs. Frederick Remington) 536
Remington, William Walter 532, 534-538, 544-546,
551-558, 560, 562, 593, 635, 636, 655, 861, 910, 918, 922, 1273, 1350
Reserve Officers' Corps 774, 777, 802, 1357
Resettlement Administration 508, 567, 588, 762, 768
Resources Protection Board 680, 688, 700, 841, 848, 849
Reuters News Agency 779, 783, 800
Richardson, Seth 636, 640
Riverside Pharmacy 1322
Roberts, Jack (real name Goldberger, also known as J. Peters) 620, 1041
Robeson, Paul 613, 859, 860
Robinson (alias for Ewald) 1281, 1282
Robinson-Rubins 1282
Rockefeller Foundation 907
Rockefeller, Nelson 531, 786, 787
Rogge, O. John 915
Roosevelt, Franklin Delano__- 519, 580, 631, 657, 699, 805, 841, 852, 1007, 1008
Roosevelt, Mrs. Franklin Delano 1040, 1164
Roosevelt, James 670
Rose, Fred 506
Rosen, Addie (Mrs. William Rosen, nee Addie Baron) 1219,
1223, 1241, 1301-1314, 1316, 1337, 1341
Rosen, Cyril 1209, 1234, 1241, 1302
Rosen, Eugene Victor 1209, 1234, 1241, 1302, 1314
Rosen, Lionel Milton 1209, 1234, 1241, 1302, 1314
Rosen, William 1055,
1056, 1059-1062, 1064, 1067, 1068, 1070, 1112-1114, 1124, 1125,
1127, 1141, 1158, 1207-1222, 1224, 1226-1230, 1233, 1234, 1237,
1241, 1276, 1284, 1305, 1306, 1310, 1313, 1316, 1318-1322, 1324-
1341, 1344, 1346, 1353.
Rosen, William Herbert 1209, 1221, 1303
Rosenberg, Allan R 512, 513, 525,
655, 683, 686, 687, 821, 838, 861, 910, 918, 922, 1021, 1273, 1350, 1351
Rosenberg, Louis 1233, 1313-1316
Ro.senheim, Monte (Monty) 1231, 1242
Rosenthal, Allen 1239, 1250
Rosenthal, Sol 1239
Rosenwald, Harold 1082, 1083
Roth, A 1038
Rotman, Victor 640
Royal Economic Society 823, 826
INDEX 1375
Page
Rubins (alias for Ewald) 1282
Rural P^lectrification Administration 1342
Rural Resettlement Administration 1022, 1024, 1025
Russell 538,872
Russell, Donald 793, 798
Russell, Francis 793
Russell, Irving 839, 840
Russell, Louis J 612-622, 711-713, 994-996, 1111-1115, 1180
Russian consulate 611
Russian Embassy 541, 542, 611, 746, 813, 857, 858
Russian War Relief 736, 745, 746
Ruthven, Madeline 621
St. John's College 704
St. Lawrence University 877
St. Mary's College 589, 612
Salt, Waldo 620
Samarin 801,849
Sandoz, Inc 1085
Saposs _^j 581, 582
Saturday Evening Post 1005, 1006, 1265
Sayre, Francis B 645, 957, 1164
Schimmell, Herbert 518
Schlamm, William 576
Sears Roebuck 757
Seattle Police Department 613
Securities and Exchange Commission 607
Selective Service Board 678
Senate Committee Investigating the Munitions Industry 645,
955-958. 981, 987, 1082, 1084, 1091, 1141, 1162, 1163, 1178, 1351
Senate Committee on Civil Liberties 567, 819, 1020
Senate Committee on Education and Labor 513, 1351
Senate Committee on Expenditures 751, 1350
Senate Committee on Military Affairs 802
Senate Small Business Committee 802, 806
Senate Subcommittee on Education and Labor 516, 520, 1016
Senate Subcommittee on War Mobilization 819, 907, 1349-1351
Senate Subcommittee on Wartime Health and Education 819,833
Shea, Francis M 640
Silverman, Abraham George 517,
523-525, 552, 553, 556-558, 560, 608, 609, 655, 690, 702, 767,
835-850, 853, 855, 856, 858, 861-865, 868, 874, 875, 880, 900, 901,
905, 910, 914, 918, 919, 922, 1272, 1285, 1287, 1350, 1351.
Silvermaster, Arkady 588
Silvermaster Group 692, 1288, 1349, 1350
Silvermaster, Helen (Mrs. Nathan Gregory Silvermaster, nee Helen
Petrova Witte) 509, 521, 523,
526, 540, 552, 553, 561, 605, 606, 608, 609, 712, 858, 870, 913, 915
Silvermaster, Nathan Gregory (real name Zeilberneister, see also Gregory
Masters, Nathan Masters) 507-511, 516-523, 525.
526, 528, 529, 532, 535-540, 552, 553, 556-558, 560-562, 584,
586-607, 610, 612, 614-619, 625, 627-630, 639, 649, 655, 685, 693,
702-704, 709, 712, 763-769, 773-776, 783-785, 787, 789, 790,
794, 795, 820, 821, 836, 837, 839, 844, 852-857, 859, 861-875,
878, 880-883, 888, 889, 895-899, 902, 903, 905, 908-911, 913, 919,
920, 922-925, 1021, 1028, 1076, 1272, 1274, 1349-1351.
Smith, Andrew 620, 1268, 1269
Smith, Edwin 1037, 1038
Smith, Gerald L. K 967, 968
Smith, W. Marvin 1068-1074, 1116, 1119, 1122
Smoot Motor Co 1095
Social Science Research Council 907
Socialist Party 634
Society of Friends 649
Soil Conservation Service 802
Sokolsky, George E 1157
Sorbonne (Pari.s) 533
1376 INDEX
Page
Sorrel, George i 1203
Southern Conference for Human Welfare 651
Sovakimian, Gaik 705, 706
Soviet Russia Today 1020, 1021
Spaith, Carl . _ _ 1 938
Spanish Civil War 1184, 1262, 1265
Spanish war 631
Spate, Carl B 786
Spaulding, E. Wylie 793
Springman, Leonard 1231
Stalin Group 572
Stalin, Joseph 572, 573, 657, 692, 1006, 1007, 1141, 1156
Stanford University 841, 877
Stassen , Harold 1164
State Department 519,
531-533, 565, 568, 579, 580, 600, 624. 638, 657-659. 670, 671. 779,
782, 786, 787, 792, 793, 795, 797, 798, 806, 856, 859. 864. 929, 930,
957, 1007, 1008, 1148, 1163, 1164, 1265, 1294-1296, 1298, 1350, 1351
Stedman, Alfred D 641
Steel Workers' Organizing Committee 567
Stettinius, Edward 1134, 1163, 1297
Steve (real name Goldberger, also known as J. Peters) 621
Stevens, Alexander (real name Goldberger, also known as J. Peters) 569,
620, 621, 685, 804, 998, 1020, 1028, 1033, 1041, 1054, 1063, 1064,
1267-1279, 1306, 1323
Stevens, Pete (real name Goldberger, also known as J. Peters) 620
Stimson, Henrv L 1292
Stone, King___' 1231
Stone, William T 602-604
Strong, G. V 628, 854, 868, 872, 875
Tamm, E. F 648, 937, 1133, 1134
Tapp, Jesse W 641
Tariff Commission 836
Taussig, Frank 840
Taylor, William C 1218, 1219, 1345
Tavlor, William H 510, 656,
683, 838, 861, 880, 900, 901, 910, 919, 923, 1273, 1350, 1358-1360
Tennessee Vallev Authority 536, 1163
Tenney, Helen B 530, 656, 861, 919, 1273, 1350
Textile Workers' Organizing Committee 567
"This Is My Story" 1041
Thomas. Seth 641
Thompson, D . 627
Thompson, Norman 763
Time, Inc 576
Time Magazine 564,
575, 576, 646, 647. 1004, 1107, 1176, 1186, 1188, 1197, 1292, 1351
Tippett, Tom 626, 627, 630
Tolan, John H 806
Tollev, Howard R 641, 909
Tolotrav 506
Townsend, John 1164
Trade Agreement Act 645
Trade Agreements Committee 681
Train, Harold 1 164
Treasury Department 509-512, 515, 517, 589, 590, 600, 601, 606, 607,
612, 624, 628, 629, 638, 653, 681, 683, 699, 762, 767, 768, 852,
856, 857, 860, 873, 874, 878, 879, 882-884, 887, 888, 890, 891.
895, 897, 899-902, 913-919, 921, 930, 1342, 1349-1351, 1359
Triangle Luncheonette 719, 722
Trotskyites 572
Truman, Harrv 502, 638
Tugwell, Rexford Guy '. 567, 638, 640-642, 1025
Tulane University 552
Tuma, Lillian 1247
Uerkvit z. Herta 621
INDEX 1377
Page
Uj Elore 1278
UUmann Bros 606
Ullmann, William liudwig 509,
510, 523, 525, 552, 553, 556, 560, 593, 605-610, 616, 656, 685, 702,
703, 761-778, 784, 789, 790, 821, 837, 857, 858, 861, 862, 865, 868-
870, 880, 882-884, 901, 903-905, 910, 911, 914, 919, 923, 1040,
1042, 1273, 1350, 1351.
Unitarian Relief , 1 266
United Jewish Appeal 1212
United Nations 519, 533, 552, 648, 656, 886, 887, 1134, 1148, 1163
United Nations Charter 659
United Nations, General Assembly 648
United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration 515, 686, 918, 1350
United Office and Professional Workers of America 1299
United Public Workers 1214
United States Service and Shipping Corp 504, 526, 542, 814
University of Baltimore 1343
University of British Columbia 1359
University of California 589, 612, 614, 1359
University of Chicago 515, 917, 920, 921, 1016
University of Florence ^ 504
University of Florida 533
University of Hawaii 1359
University of London 852
University of Oklahoma 533
University of Perugia 504
Uni verstiy of Texas 967
University of Virginia 533
University of Washington 589^ 612
Vandenberg, Arthur 1163
Van Eckhardt, Mrs 1250
Vassar College 503, 504, 526, 549-551
Vehicles and Traffic Department 1052
1060, 1064, 1065, 1068, 1072, 1080, 1095, 1111, 1115, 1118, 1125
Veitch 1043, 1050
Veterans Club, George Washington University 1251
Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade 631 797
Voice of America ' 604
Voska, Emanual Victor 1042
Wahl, David 703
Wales, Tony 628
Walker, Frank 1164
Wallace, Henry A 514
518, 567, 623, 638, 642, 652, 653, 699, 700^ 759^ '833, 838, 839
W alsh, Eugene 1257
Walton 1174
War Assets Administration 508, 509, 589,613 701
War Department 602, 836, 854, 866-868, 875, 876, 1342
\^ ar Manpower Commission 530 913
War MobilizatioQ and Reconversion, Office of ' 536
War Production Board 511 512
„, , „ „ 514, 515, 518, 536, 624, 680, 688, 699, 848," 858^86171350,' 1351
n ard & Paul 935
Ware-Abt-Witt Group " -"//_"- --'/_. "//_I7/_" 1284^ 1350, 1351
Ware, Harold 5II
538, 539. 565, 566. 568, 575,"5'80763'8V64"6',"65f ,"652,"685^930, 997,'
998, 1021, 1023. 1024, 1032, 1036, 1037, 1145, 1147, 1157 1159
1169, 1170, 1178, 1180, 1272, 1279, 1351, 1353.
U are. Helen 5g9 930
Washington, Baltimore & Annapolis Lines [_'_ 995 1128
Washington Bookshop 631 633 757
Washington Committee for Democratic Action '__ ' 971
Washington Committee to Aid China 757 859 860
^^ ashington Racquet Club » ' '929
Wasserman, Joe "Il'l^limill^ T "l231, 1242
\\ elles, bumner _ ggQ
1378 INDEX
Page
Wheeler, Donald Niven . 513, 525, 538, 630, 656, 683,
686, 687, 756, 757, 821, 838, 861, 910, 919, 923, 1273, 1350, 1351
White, Harry Dexter 511, 512, 538, 553, 574, 576, 577, 579, 580,
582, 591, 600, 606, 616, 619, 654, 656, 681, 703, 762, 834, 838,
861, 873, 877-906, 910, 914, 919, 923, 925, 930, 976. 1350, 1351.
Wilder, Thorton 668
Williams, Aubrey 575, 576
Williams, John H . 840
Wilson, Edwin 11 64
Wilson, Ruth 621
Winant, John 916
Witt. Nathan 565-567,
575, 580, 619, 638, 643, 646, 651, 928-931, 939, 1019, 1021, 1023,
1028-1033, 1036-1038, 1040, 1145, 1146, 1159, 1180, 1202, 1273,
1284, 1292-1294. 1351-1353.
Witte, Helen Petrova (Mrs. Nathan Gregory Silvermaster) 588
Wogg, Pauline 588
Wohlford, Robert 987, 1021, 1091, 1092
Wohlman, Leo 840
Woodbury Forest School 716
Workers' Education Committee 536
Workers Library Publishers 620
Workers Party, Chicago 627
Works Progress Administration 514, 515, 567, 1016, 1020, 1022, 1351
World Tourists, Inc 505, 506, 757
Wuchinich, George 1274
Yale University 716, 735
Yalta Agreement 657, 1201, 1297
Yalta Conference 565, 656
Young & Simon 1327
Young Communist League 718
Young Mens Christian Association 929
Zeilberneister, N. (see also Nathan Gregory Silvermaster, Gregory Masters,
Nathan Masters) 615
Zionist Organization 1054
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