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HEARINGS REGARDING COMMUNIST INFILTRATION
OF RADIATION LABORATORY AND ATOMIC BOMB
PROJECT AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA,
BERKELEY, CALIF. VOLUME 3
HEARINGS
^i C^rft^<^ U^i BEFORE THE
;^'COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
EIGHTY-FIRST CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
December 20, 21, and 22, 1950
Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICB
7e87K WASHINGTON : 1951
JAN 29 1951
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES
United States House of Representatives
JOHN S. WOOD, Georgia, Chairman
FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania FRANCIS CASE, South Dakota
BURR P. HARRISON, Virginia HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois
JOHN McSWEENEY, Ohio BERNARD W. KEARNEY, New York
MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri DONALD L. JACKSON, Califoraia
Feank S. Tavenner, Jr., Counsel
Louis J. Russell, Senior Investigator
John W. Carrington, Clerk of Committee
Benjamin Mandel, Director of Research
1 Hon. Richard M. Nixon resigned from the committee November 30, 1950, to enter Senate.
II
CONTENTS
December 20, 1950, testimonj' of— Page
David Hawkins 3417
Frances Pockman Hawkins 3453
Alexander Plaisted Saxton 3460
December 21, 1950, testimony of —
Mary Bernadette Doyle 3463
Kenneth Ownsworth May 3471
December 22, 1950, testimony of —
Kenneth Ownsworth May 3493
III
HEARINGS EEGAEDINCx COMMUNIST INFILTEATION OF
EADIATION LABORATORY AND ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, BERKELEY,
CALIF.-YOLUME 3
WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 20, 1950
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington, D. C.
executive session
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met
pm-suant to call at 10:55 a. m. in room 226, Old House Office Building,
Hon. Burr P. Harrison presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Burr P. Harrison
and Harold H. Velde.
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; Louis J.
Russell, senior investigator; Donald T. Appell, investigator; John W.
Carrington, clerk; Benjamin Mandel, dhector of research; and A. S.
Poore, editor,
Mr. Harrison, This is a hearing conducted by a subcommittee
appointed by the chairman, consisting of Mr, Velde and Mr. Harrison.
Do you solemnl}^ swear that in the evidence you give before this
subcommittee you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. Hawkins. I do.
Mr, Harrison. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
TESTIMONY OF DAVID HAWKINS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEI,
JOSEPH A. FANELLI
Mr. Tavenner. You are Dr. David Hawkins?
Dr. Hawkins. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner, Are you represented by counsel?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes; Mr, Fanelli,
Mr, Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the record,
and give his address?
Mr. Fanelli. Joseph A, Fanelli. I am a member of the District
of Columbia Bar, with offices at 729 Fifteenth Street NW,, Wash-
ington, D, C,
Air. Tavenner. Dr. Hawkins, when and where were you born?
Dr. Hawkins. I was born in El Paso, Tex., February 28, 1913.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you briefly outline for the committee your
educational background?
3417
3418 COMMUNiIST INFILTR'ATIONi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
Dr. Hawkins. From the beginning?
Mr, Tavenner. Well, from the time you entered college.
Dr. Hawkins. I was an undergraduate at Stanford University in
Palo Alto, Calif. I got my B. A. degree there, and my M. A. degree
there in 1936. I got my Ph. D. degree from the University of Cali-
fornia in 1940.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state to the committee what your record
of employment has been since you left college?
Dr. Hawkins. I had been at the University of California 1 year or
2 years as teaching assistant before I got my Ph. D. degree. Then I
was employed as temporary instructor at Stanford University in the
academic year 1940-41.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you continue as an instructor?
Dr. Hawkins. For 1 year at Stanford. Then I was employed the
followmg year by the Univei'sity of California. That is 1941-42 and
1942-43, and I left the University of California about the 1st of May
1943. On that occasion I was employed on war work at Los Alamos,
N. Mex.
Mr. Tavenner. And when did your employment begm at Los
Alamos?
Dr. Hawkins. On or very close to the 1st of jVIay — perhaps the
3d or 5th, I don't recall exactly — 1943.
Mr. Tavenner. And it continued to what date?
Dr. Hawkins. Until about August 1946. At that time I left
Los Alamos, and from then on I have been back in academic work.
Mr. Tavenner. Where?
Dr. Hawkins. I came from Los Alamos to Washington, D. C,
where I was associate professor of philosphy at George Washington
University. That was for 1 year. After that I was employed by the
University of Colorado starting in the fall of 1947, and I have been
employed there contmuously since then. I am now professor of
philosophy at the University of Colorado.
Mr. Tavenner. Dr. Hawkins, the committee has been in the
course of investigation of activities of various individuals withm the
Communist Party in the State of California, and this mvestigation is
all the more important now that this country is in the situation that
it is in regard to its foreign relations, and I want to ask you to cooperate
fully with the committee, if you will, in helping us to obtain a better
understanding of the matters which are in the course of investigation.
Dr. Hawkins. I am very anxious to cooperate with the committee.
Mr. Tavenner. And in asking for that cooperation, we, of coiu"se,
will have to ask you questions relating to your own background and
your own experiences. So the first question of that character that I
want to ask in regard to your own activities is whether or not you have
at any time been a member of the Communist Party?
Dr. Hawkins. I have.
Mr. Tavenner. Would you state to the committee, please, the
circumstances under which you affiliated with the party, and where
and when it took place?
Dr. Hawkins. As nearly as I can recollect, I jomed the Communist
Party in Berkeley in 1938; I think the fall of 1938. I am not too
precise about the date. I left the Communist Party in the spring of
1943. The date of my departure is not too definite, because of the
circumstances of my leaving.
COMMUNIST IXTILTRATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3419
Mr. Tavenner. Who recruited you into the Communist Partj^?
Dr. Hawkins. No one.
Mr. Tavenner. No one soHcited your membership?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. With whom did you confer in the Communist
Party about j^our affiUation?
Dr. Hawkins. As nearly as I can recollect the circumstances of my
joining, which I can describe to 3^ou if you wish, I resolved to do this,
and I went and looked up the local campus branch of the Communist
Party. This wasn't difficult to do in those days. Then I went to a
meeting at which I signed up.
Mr. Tavenner. Who was the person you contacted? Was it
Kenneth May or some other individual at the school?
Dr. Hawkins. I recollect Kenneth May from that time, or I can't
say from that time, but I do recollect Kenneth May from this par-
ticular period of my life. I can't say there was any one individual
that I now recollect with whom I discussed this.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you assigned to a branch or cell of the Com-
munist Party when you united with it?
Dr. Hawkins. So far as I know there was only one branch in the
region, which at that time I think was called the campus branch, or
some such phi-ase as that, and that was the branch to which I was
assigned.
Mr. Tavenner. That was at the University of California?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether that was a branch of the
Young Communist League, as distinguished from a branch of the
Communist Party?
Dr. Hawkins. I don't believe it was a branch of the Young Com-
munist League. I am pretty sure it was not. It was a regular
Communist Party branch.
Air. Tavenner. What was the membership of that group?
Dr. Hawkins. I have to answer that by just forming a picture of
meetings I attended. I would say 25 or 30 people.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever hold an official position in that
branch?
Dr. Hawkins. Not that I recollect.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were the officers?
Dr. Hawkins. I believe at the time I left Berkeley the chairman — or
organizer, I think he was called — was Mr. May, but I am not certain
of that. My recollections of this particular period are not too sharp.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give us the names of all the persons who
did hold official positions in that branch of the Communist Party
while you were a member?
Dr. Hawkins. I am afraid, sir, I didn't pay much attention to those
matters, and I don't recollect at the moment any other individual but
Mr. May. I am sure there were others.
Mr. Fanelli. You mean the officers, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. That is right.
Dr. Hawkins. I don't recall who the officers were or who the people
were in the branch.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you ever a member of the Young Communist
League?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
3420 coMMUNiisa? infilte'ation of atomic bomb project
Mr. Tavenner. You have told us that you went to Stanford in
1940.
Dr. Hawkins. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you transfer your membership to a branch of
the Communist Party at Stanford while you were there?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. And you were at Stanford 1 year?
Dr. Hawkins. Less than 1 year; one academic year — 9 months, I
think.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were the officers of the branch at Stanford?
Dr. Hawkins. When I went there I believe — and I am not certain
about this — that Mr. Frank Oppenheimer was the chairman of that
group.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give us the names of other officers at
that time?
Dr. Hawkins. I don't think there were other officers at that time.
As I recollect it, there was just this one job which was a formal job.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the name of the branch of the Com-
munist Party at Stanford?
Dr. Hawkins. It wasn't at Stanford; it was at Palo Alto, That is,
it wasn't on the campus of the university. I don't think it had any
name. If it did, I don't recoUect it.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the membership?
Dr. Hawkins. I would say probably 15 or 20, but I am not too clear
on the exact number.
Mr. Tavenner. Where did j^ou go from Stanford University, back
to the University of California?
Dr. Hawkins. Back to the University of California; yes, su-.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you then again renew your membership there?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. Tavenner. I understood you to say that you were a member of
the Communist Party until 1943?
Dr. Hawkins. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Where was 3^our membership held after leaving
Stanford?
Dr. Hawkins. Might I explain something of the circumstances?
Mr. Tavenner. Surely.
Dr. Hawkins. This was a period when I was not particularly
happy about the general position on some political questions of the
Communist Party; and in addition to that, when I went back to the
University of California, I was beginning a career as a university
teacher, I hoped, and I didn't want to get reinvolved in the affairs of
this branch, and I therefore didn't reafiiliate with it.
Mr. Harrison. That is in 1941?
Dr. Hawkins. That is in the fall of 1941; yes. I didn't reaffiliate
with this branch. I wanted to have what I thought I deserved and
my profession deserved; an independent position in relation to the
university at which I was teaching.
Air. Velde. What was the name of the branch at the University of
California?
Dr. Hawkins. The name I recall was campus branch. I believe
there was a name which I vaguely rf member from tliis period, which
was Merriman branch.
Could I go back to the Palo Alto branch a moment?
COMIMUXIST I^-FILTRATIOX OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3421
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Dr. Hawkins. I believe I held a minor office in that branch for a
time. I am sorry to be so vague about this, but I believe I was in
charge of the educational activities of this branch for a very short
time, as I recall.
Mr. Tavenner. From 1941 until 1943, when I understand you
ceased to be a member, did you affiliate with any other branch or cell
of the party, and how did you hold your membership during that
period?
Dr. Hawkins. I did. I affiliated with a branch of the Communist
Party in San Francisco. A good part of this period I was living in
San Francisco and commuting to Berkeley, and this accomplished the
separation which I desired.
Mr. Tavenner. What was that branch?
Dr. Hawkins. It was a rather small branch of professional people,
mostly school teachers.
Mr. Tavenner. Did it have a name?
Dr. Hawkins. Not that I know of.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were the officers of that branch?
Dr. Hawkins. I don't recollect. I might say that my affiliation
with that branch was not a very constant one. That is to say, I was
not in very regular attendance at its meetings. I was never an
officer of it. It was a small branch. I don't even recollect that it
had any well-defined officers.
Mr. Tavenner. How many composed that branch, the profes-
sional branch?
Dr. Hawkins. I would say something like 10 or 12 or 15 people.
Mr. Tavenner. W"ho were mainly from the teaching profession?
Dr. Haavkins. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give us the names of those persons?
Dr. Hawkins. Would you consider, sir, that I am rather reluctant
to give the names of individuals whom I don't remember very well
and as to whom statements I might make would perhaps misrepresent
the situation at this time?
Mr. Harrison. Of course, we are familiar vvith the fact that at that
time it was an entirely different situation. Nevertheless, it is of value
to this committee to have that information.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me change the question slightly. Were there
members of that cell who were employed at the Radiation Laboratory?
Dr. Hawkins. No, su\
Mr. Harrison. Some of these people may still be in the Communist
Party, and some may not.
Dr. Hawkins. I believe they are not.
Mr. Harrison. We are trying to sift it to be fair about it.
Dr. Hawkins. I hope you appreciate the reason for my hesitation.
Mr. Harrison. We understand that.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me ask you if any of the following-named
persons were members of that cell
Dr. Hawkins. All right, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Bernadette Doyle?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Counsel, you are referring to what branch now?
Mr. Tavenner. The professional branch made up principally of
teachers.
3422 COMMUNTiIST IKTTLTR'ATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
Mr. Velde. Of San Francisco?
Mr. Tavenner. Of San Francisco. I will have other questions I
will want to ask him about these individuals later.
I believe, first, I am going to ask you to name those that you defi-
nitely recall were members of that branch.
Dr. Hawkins. Is it possible that you may postpone that question,
and give me a chance to think about it, until later?
Air. Tavenner. Yes.
Dr. Hawkins. Thank you.
]Mr. Tavenner. The purpose of your desiring further time is to be
more definite about your recollection of who were members?
Dr. Hawkins. And about my answer, sir.
Mr. Harrison. Your naming those people is not going to put them
in the Atlanta penitentiary. We try to find out which ones of them
are still active m the party and, therefore, dangerous to the country.
I wouldn't say it isn't a reflection on a man's judgment that he belonged
to the Commimist Party in that period, but there is nothing sinister
about it. It also has this bearing: We would like to know whether
these people subsequently became employed by the Government,
particularly on the atomic-bomb project.
Dr. Hawkins. I realize that. M}^ hesitation arises from two things,
mainly. I can assure you that none of these people had any connec-
tion whatever with the Radiation Laboratory or Communist Party
affau's at Berkeley, and if 3^our interest is centered there I can assure
you that there is no connection I know of or can conceive of between
these people and the Berkeley group. It was only this extreme
separation between the Berkeley group and this group that made me
desire to affiliate with it.
Mr. Harrison. Of course, there was another group that did deliver
to the Soviet government every piece of scientific information they
had from the Radiation Laboratory.
Dr. Hawkins. I know nothing about that.
Mr. Fanelli. Mr. Chairman, may I respectfully suggest that you
ask if the school teachers in this group were from Berkeley. Appar-
ently not, I gather from his last answer.
Air. Tavenner. Where were they engaged in teaching?
Dr. Hawkins. They lived and were emploj^ed in San Francisco, as
I recollect, all of them.
Mr. Tavenner. Did any of them have a connection with the
University of California?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir; not that I know of. I believe they were
grade-school and high-school teachers.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat was the plan under which you affiliated
with that group? Wasn't that done as part of a plan to help educate
them in communism, because of your longer membership, probably?
Dr. Hawkins. I wonder if I might ask you to defer that until my
wife's testimony? I understand she is to testify this morning. The
reason was one of family association.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you familiar with the labor school in San
Francisco?
Mr. Harrison. Just a moment. We will recess for a few minutes.
(Short recess.)
Mr. Harrison. Will you read the question to the witness?
COMMUNIST INlFILTRATrONi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3423
(The pending question was read to the witness, as follows: "Are
you familiar with the labor school in San Francisco?")
Dr. Hawkins. I know that there was a labor school in San
Francisco.
Mr. Tavenner. Were any of the teachers who were members of
the branch that you were affiliated with in San Francisco connected
with the labor school, to your knowledge?
Dr. Hawkins. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever had any connection with that
school?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir. I have a vague recollection that at one
time someone asked me if I would teach a course in the labor school,
but I didn't do it. That is the only thing I can recall that might con-
nect me in any way with it.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Franlc Leslie Pollack a member of any of
these branches of the Communist Party with which you were affiliated?
Dr. Hawkins. Not to my knowledge; not of the branches with
which I was affiliated.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know Frank Leslie Pollack?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether or not he was a member of
the Communist Party at any time?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sii-; I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever attend a Communist Party meeting
at which he was present?
Dr. Hawkins. Not that I recollect.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you recommend him for employment on any
occasion?
Dr. Hawkins. I have recommended a lot of people for employment
at one time or another, but I don't recollect any such recommendation.
Mr. Tavenner. In any event, I understand you did not know him
to be a member of the Communist Party?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. What were the circumstances under which you
met him?
Dr. Hawkins. Well, they were social, and I would find it very hard
to say when I met him. I believe it was during the period when my
wife and I were living in San Francisco, and I assume that I met him
socially during that period.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you know him, for how long a period
of time?
Dr. Hawkins. This is very difficult for me to say. I may have met
him prior to the time when my wife and I were living in San Francisco,
If so, it was a very casual acquaintance. The thing which I recollect
now, apart from seeing him and his wife in San Francisco, is that just
prior to the time I left the University of California at Berkeley to go to
Los Alamos we heard of an apartment, or half a house, it was, near the
campus, to which we were considering moving, and in fact we had
ahead}^ made plans. This apartment was to be vacated by the Pol-
lacks, and we made plans to move back to Berkeley. I had gotten
tired commuting from San Francisco to the campus, and we were just
planning to move to that apartment when I was offered a position at'
Los Alamos and accepted it.
3424 COMMUNIST INFILTRATIONi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
Mr. Tavenner. How long did your acquaintanceship continue
with Pollack?
Dr. Hawkins. I believe the last time I saw him was when I in-
formed him that our plans had suddenly changed, that we were going
to leave town; and, so far as I recollect, I haven't seen him since.
Mr. Tavenner. I mentioned the name a few moments ago of
Bernadette Doyle. Were 3^ou acquainted with her?
Dr. Hawkins. I believe that I met Bernadette Doyle once. At
any rate, I met a lady whom I presume to have been Bernadette
Doyle. This lady was at that time — which I suppose was 1941 or
early 1942 — she was described to me as the educational director, I
believe, of the Communist Party of Alameda County. Apart from
that meeting with her, I don't recollect any other.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether or not you attended any
meeting at which she was present?
Dr. Hawkins. I have no recollection of such a meeting. There
may have been public meetings of some kind, or big meetings, at which
she was present. I don't recollect her in any other connection.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Dr. Bernard Peters?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; I am slightly acquainted with him.
Mr. Tavenner. Tell us what j^our relationship was with him.
Dr. Hawkins. He was in some position, I don't know what, in the
ph)' sics department, I believe, at the University of California, and had
been a student, I believe, of various people there. Dr. Oppenheimer,
for example. I recollect meeting him on the campus, and I believe
I visited his house once.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he a member of or affiliated m any wslj with
the campus branch of the Communist Party?
Dr. Hawkins. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Would you loiow whether he was affiliated dm'ing
the period prior to 1940 when you were an active member of that
branch?
Dr. Hawkins. I don't believe he was.
Mr. Tavenner. After your return to the University of California
in the fall of 1941, did you attend any of the meetings of the campus
branch of the Communist Party?
Dr. Hawkins. I believe not. I am quite sm-e I did not.
Mr. Tavenner. Was your association with Dr. Peters sufficient to
enable you to tell this committee whether or not he was affiliated with
that branch of the Communist Party or any other branch?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir; it was not,
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, you don't know whether he was a
member or not after your return to the University of California?
Dr. Hawkins. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. The occurrence you referred to of meeting him at
his home, was that a group meeting?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir. That was purely social.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you become acquainted with Robert R. Davis?
Dr. Hawkins. Not in Berkele}^
Mr. Tavenner. You met him after he was transferred from the
Radiation Laboratory to Los Alamos?
Dr. Hawkins. The first time I met him was at Los Alamos.
Air. Tavenner. When were you transferred to Los Alamos?
Dr. Hawkins. I wasn't transferred.
COMAIIMIST INOFILTRATIOK' OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3425
Mr. Tavexner. I mean, when did you accept employment at
Los Alamos?
Dr. Hawkins. I believe I said it was aromid the 1st of May. It
may have been the 3d or 5th or 4th.
Mr. Tavenner. Of what vear?
Dr. Hawkins. 1943.
Mr. Tavenner. Did 3'ou ever attend a Communist Party meeting
with Robert R. Davis?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir; not that I know of.
Mr. Tavenner. Did jou ever discuss the subject of communism
with Robert R. Davis?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether or not he was a member of
the Communist Party?
Dr. Hawkins. I know it from a very recent period.
Mr. Tavenner. Explain what you mean.
Dr. Hawkins. I know it from newspaper stories of the activities
of your committee.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you know Rossi Lomanitz while you were at
the University of California?
Dr. Hawkins. I can't recall ever having met him. His name is
one that I do seem to recall from that period, but I think it is simply
as one of the people who was working m the physics department,
about whom I maj' have heard his name.
Mr. Harrison. Would you mind telling me why you joined the
Communist Party?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; I would be very glad to tell you. In this
period — this is somewhere near the time of ]\lunich — I was very much
alarmed, and I think I could say in this period I had become more
interested m political matters. I had been prett}' much absorbed in
my activities as an undergraduate, and prett}^ unworldly in my
attitude. I became concerned about what appeared to be the immi-
nent drive toward war m Nazi Germany, and I felt that this was
something — well, I think the first recollection I have of a strong
interest in political matters was the civil war in Spain. I was very
much afraid that this aggressive drive toward war of Nazi Germany
would not be stopped by the policies of Chamberlain and Daladier,
and this view to which I came was at that time held very strongly
by the Communist Party.
I think more than any other one factor was the feeling that this
drive toward war could be stopped by a collective security policy
and when I looked around to find people who strongly supported that
policy, at least in California, the Communist Party seemed to be the
principal group that was taking that position. I think this was the
thing that got me interested and is the thing I kept falling back on if
I had doubts about the Communist Party. This was one thing definite
on which I felt one could work with these people for a good end. I
think I was at a stage of development— well, not all college professors
are as remote from practical considerations of politics as I was, but
I was pretty remote from that sort of thing.
Mr. Harrison. I can't help but be impressed by how strong the
appeal of communism was to so many of what we might call the
intelligentsia.
3426 COMMUNUST INT-'ILTR'ATIONi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
Dr. Hawkins. It may be true that at this particular time, at least
in California, there was a kind of feeling of crisis in the air. This was
the time of terrific strife in the valleys of California, labor strife, and
on the waterfront. There was a general feeling that society was not
all in one piece, that people were not participating together in the
democratic process but were separating into warring camps; and that
may have influenced persons like myself who had sympathies for people
coming out of the depression. My wife was a kindergarten teacher and
saw real suffering. Children would come to school with nothing to
eat or bloated stomachs because they were eating only starch. I think
I never had any particular romantic illusions about the Soviet Union.
I understood they had decided to follow a path that was going to be
very hard on any internal democratic process, but it was true that in
this period the Soviet Union, in international affairs, seemed to stand
for the things that would seem to lead to peace.
Mr. Harrison. What effect did the German-Eussian Pact have on
your feeling?
Dr. Hawkins. The first thing that had any pronounced negative
effect on my feeling was not the German-Russian Pact but the attitude
of the Communist Parties in England and France and the United
States at the time of the invasion of Norway and the Low Countries.
The German-Russian Pact seemed to me to be a sheer act of national
self-protection. Later on there was a war against Finland, and I
couldn't accept that with any happy feeling, but again you could say,
''Here is a desperate situation. It may be true that there are secret
arrangements that Finland is to be used as a springboard."
Mr. Harrison. All you had to do was look at a map and see why
that was done.
Dr. Hawkins. I think the invasion of Norway and the Low
Countries gave me a real test, because up to that time I had felt that
the position of the western Communist Parties was a genuine position
of national self-interest. During the period when Germany had com-
mitted herself to war against the Western Powers, this then seemed to
become just the war that in the whole period of the united front we
had been predicting was going to happen. Suddenly you found the
French and English and American Communist Parties carrying over
the slogans of the previous period, and in the case of France that was
so bad that the French Communist Party didn't reverse its position
until the actual eve of the invasion of France. That seemed to be a
terrifically opportunist position, and I was not happ}^ about that, nor
was I happy about the position of the American Communist Party at
that time, but I did not withdraw from it.
Mr. Velde. Did you inform ^'^ourself on the Communist Party
before you joined?
Dr. Hawkins. I am afraid I did not make the kind of investigation
one would normally make before joining any organization. I might
say it was very difficult to do because you had two stories to judge
from. You had the position of people very strongly against the Com-
munist Party, who said it was an agent of AIoscow. This was laughed
at in many circles, and there was nothing I could see that would
indicate that,
Mr. Velde. You didn't know the Communist Party was a part of
the Comintern?
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3427
Dr. Hawkins. If I remember correctly, they left the Comintern
about the time I jomed or maybe a little before or a little after. That
is my recollection. The thing which I would have thought about that
was, "Well, of course, if there is an international political movement
in the world, then they should have some international forum through
which to discuss their common problems and divergences," and in
mternational program of that kind would not have seemed to me bad,
nor does an international program now seem bad to me. I don't
mean an international Communist program, but any international
progi-am.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you become acquainted with Dr. Irving
David Fox?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir; not that I recollect.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Ken Max Manfred?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you know Max Bernard Friedman?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir. I might say this was a long time ago.
When I say ''No," I mean I have no recollection of these people.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Philip Morrison?
Dr. Hawkins. I would lilve to ask on this particular pomt if you
could ask me a different question from that one?
Mr. Harrison. Mr. Tavenner, we are gomg to have to quit before
long, anyway.
Dr. Hawkins. Could I consult with my counsel on that question?
jVIr. Harrison. He will withdraw the question if it is agreeable to
you. We will have to quit at noon, anyway.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Harrison. We will recess until 2 o'clock.
(Thereupon, at 11:55 a. m., a recess was taken until 2 p. m. of the
same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(The hearing was resumed at 2 p. m., Hon. Morgan M. Moulder
presiding and Hon. Harold H. Velde also bemg present.)
^Ir. Moulder. Let the record show that pursuant to order of the
Honorable John S. Wood, chairman of the committee, Mr. Velde and
Mr. Moulder were duly designated as a subcommittee of two to con-
duct the hearing this afternoon.
Mr. Tavenner. The witness has been sworn and is in the middle
of his testimony.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed.
TESTIMONY OF DAVID HAWKINS— Resumed
Mr. Tavenner. My last question to you, I believe, was whether
or not you were acquainted with Philip Morrison.
Dr. Hawkins. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your answer to that?
Dr. Hawkins. May I explain my hesitation in answermg that
question?
Mr. Tavenner. Well, this is just a question of whether or not you
know him.
Dr. Hawkins. I hesitated when you asked me before, and I would
like very much to explain my hesitation.
3428 COMMUNIST ESTFILTRATIONi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
Mr. Tavenner. If the chairman agrees.
Mr. Moulder. Yes.
Dr. Hawkins. I have reaUy no desire to inhibit or impede the
investigations of your committee, sir; and if I knew of anything con-
necting individuals about whom I feel this hesitation with the radiation
laboratory or with any crimes in which they might have been directly
or indirectly involved, I would not feel any hesitation; but, not having
such knowledge, I feel very deeply — and I am sure you will agree with
this proposition — that there are certain fundamental relations of trust
which tend to distinguish American societ}^ from other societies in the
world today; and, unless this kind of question is to your knowledge
directly or indirectly related to the subjects you are investigating, I
would very much like to ask not to be asked such a question.
If there is information of this sort that you would like to get, I
would just ask whether there may not be more efficient or direct ways
to get it, such as asking the question of the individual himself rather
than of me.
Mr. Moulder. What was the question, Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. The question was whether or not he was acquainted
with Philip Morrison.
I might say that you gave the information without hesitancy that
Mr. Frank Oppenheimer was the chairman of the Communist Party
cell at Stanford University, or at Palo Alto.
Dr. Hawkins. At Palo Alto, a branch there; yes.
Mr. Tavenner. How can you explain your reluctance to give us
the same information relating to Philip Morrison? What distinction
do you make?
Dr. Hawkins. Because there the relationship of trust is not in-
volved. Mr. Oppenheimer has testified publicly regarding this, and
I hope everybody in his position or my position would do the same
thing; then there would not be the difficulty I now feel so deeply.
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, you mentioned his name because
he had himself made certain statements before this committee, and
you would not have done so if he had not made that disclosure?
Dr. Hawkins. If he had not, I would feel about him, as a ma,n I
respect and who I do not feel has been involved in any criminal
activities, the same way.
Mr. Tavenner. Then your hesitation is limited only by the
knowledge the committee has?
Dr. Hawkins. No; it is hmited to people about whom I would find
it very hard to believe they are involved in any way in criminal
activities of any kind, and who do not seem to me to be within the
sphere of the investigation you are conducting. This is a judgment
which in the light of later knowledge I may be willing to modify.
Mr. Fanelli. Mr. Chairman, may I ask for consultation with the
witness at this point?
Mr. Moulder. Yes, indeed.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Fanelli. Mr. Counsel, put your question again.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Philip Morrison?
Dr. Hawkins. I have conferred with my counsel, and I would
like to say that I am acquainted with Philip Morrison.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat were the circumstances under which you
became acquainted with him?
COMMUNTST IMFILTRATrOX' OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3429
Dr. Hawkins. Well, they were social, but I don't recollect them in
more detail.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliere did you meet him?
Dr. Hawkins. In Berkeley, I believe, at a party of some kind, jfirst.
Mr. Tavenner. Was this a Communist Party meeting or just a
social get-together?
Dr. Hawkins. Just a social affair.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever attend a Communist Party meeting
which he attended?
Dr. Hawkins. At this point we come back to my very deep feeling
on this subject of testifying concerning people who I believe have
had no connection — I believe he had no coimection with the radiation
laboratory, and to my knowledge he is a very loyal and patriotic
citizen, and I would like to ask you if it is necessary that you ask that
question of me rather than of him.
IVIr. Velde. I think the witness, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Counsel, is
mistaken about the scope of the investigation conducted by this com-
mittee. It is not limited, as I understand it, to the University of
California Radiation Laboratory. It extends to any Communist
activity, or any subversive activit}^, not onh^ in California but all over
the country, as far as that is concerned. I am sure the committee is
interested in any information that you can give us relative to any sub-
versive activities which you know about, and I urge you to answer our
questions and be as helpful as possible to this committee in determining
just who were members of the Communist Party or who were engaged
in subversive activities of any kmd.
Dr. Hawkins. I appreciate the difficulty; believe me, I appreciate
it very deeph^, because I experience it in my own self at this moment.
Mr. Moulder. You may answer the question then make any ex-
planation you desire to make, or express an opinion on any question
involving the loyalty of any person.
Dr. Hawkins. I am afraid that under the conditions which exist
today, very different from the conditions which existed 10 or 8 or 9
years ago, with respect to American participation in foreign affairs and
with respect to the American Communist Party, the publication of
information of this kmd does the kind of damage wliich I know is not
the intent of you gentlemen in an}^ way, but which is the necessary
consequence of your investigations. I hope my position is not mis-
imderstood. I believe that I am completely honest in my statement
of it.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Do j-ou know whether Philip Morrison has ever
publicly announced his membership in the Communist Party?
Dr. Hawkins. I don't know whether he has made any statements on
that subject at all, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. I may come back to the subject of Philip Morrison
a little later.
Let me ask you about Louise Bransten. Are you acquainted with
her?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Mr. Fanelli. Is that Bransten?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, Bransten, B-r-a-n-s-t-e-n.
Do you know an individual by the name of Louise Minton?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sh.
76878—51 2
3430 COMMUNUST INT'ILTR'ATIONi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
Mr. Tavenner. Have I asked you as to whether or not you were
acquainted with David Bohm?
Dr. Hawkins. I don't recollect whether you did. I was not
acquainted with him. I may have met him once or twice on the cam-
pus, but I don't recollect him at all.
Mr. Tavenner. Did 3'^ou know Joseph W. Weinberg?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes, I Icnew him.
Mr. Tavenner. Tell us the circumstances under which you became
acquainted with him.
Dr. Hawkins. Pie was also a person whom I met on the campus.
I don't remember in what first connection. He is a person who
stands out principally in my memory as one with whom I had several
conversations on subjects very close to my main field of interest,
namely, philosophy of science.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you first become acquainted with him?
Dr. Hawkins. I believe probably my recollection of him dates from
the time of 1941 or 1942 when I was temporary instructor at the
University of California.
Mr. Tavenner. And did your acquaintanceship with him continue
on for a period of a number of years?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir. I left off my acquaintance with him when
I left Berkeley.
Mr. Tavenner. You were at Berkeley twice.
Dr. Hawkins. Yes. When I left Berkeley to go to Los Alamos.
Mr. Tavenner. But you were acquainted with him from 1940 until
May 1943 when you went to Los Alamos?
Dr. Hawkins. From 1941 or 1942 until the time I went to Los
Alamos.
Mr. Tavenner. At the time you first knew him when 3^ou were at
the University of California, was he at that time affiliated in any way
with the Communist Party cell known as the Merriman branch of the
Communist Party, or the campus branch, which you referred to?
Dr. Hawkins. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he attend any meetings there that were at-
tended by you?
Dr. Hawkins. Not to my recollection.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he attend any Communist Party meetings at
any place where you were present?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir, not that I recall.
Mr. Tavenner. If he had been a member of that branch of the
Communist Party at that time — and that was during the period of
your first matriculation at the University of California — -would you
have known it?
Dr. Hawkins. I have no recollection of him as a member of the
Communist Party in that period. As to whether I would have known
it or not, I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, he may have been a member and
that fact not be known to you?
Dr. Hawkins. I just can't say. It was a rather large group of
people. I was not deeply involved in its activities. There are a
number of people at that time I don't remember at all.
Mr. Fanelli. I think the question is. Would you have known it at
the time?
Dr. Hawkins. The probabilities would be less than one half that
I would have known it, because I didn't know but a small number of
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION' OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3431
people in that group. I may have recognized faces and not known
names.
Air. Tavenner. When you came back to the University of Cali-
fornia in the fall of 1941, I understand you did not affiliate with the
Merriman branch of the Communist Party, and that you did not
attend any of its meetings?
Dr. Hawkins. That is correct; I didn't.
Mr. Tavenner. Would you have any means of knowing whether
or not Dr. Weinberg was a member of that branch in that period of
time, that is, after the fall of 1941?
Dr. Hawkins. As I indicated to you this morning, I woidd have
been very much not interested in such matters at this point. I was
not coim.ected with that branch and I didn't want to be involved in
its activities.
]\Ir. Tavenner. But j-ou were a member of the professional branch
over in San Francisco during this period?
Dr. Hawkins. Of a branch in San Francisco, yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Dr. Vv'einberg connected in any way with
that branch?
Dr. Hawkins. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you at any time sit in a Communist Party
meeting with Dr. Weinberg?
Dr. Hawkins. I believe not.
Mr. Tavenner. Ai-e you uncertain in a measure about that?
Dr. Hawkins. I am no more uncertain about that than I am about
any of my recollections of this period, which was sometime ago and
in which I have maintained no active interest since 1943. I am reason-
ably^ certain.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ev^er visit in the home of Dr. Weinberg?
Dr. Hawkins. I had luncheon with him one day in his home; yes,
Mr. Tavenner. Who else Avas there?
Dr. Hawkins. I was the only one. We were having a conversa-
tion and he said, "Come home with me and have lunch," and I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he ever a guest in your home?
Dr. Hawkins. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend any social functions together that
you can recall?
Dr. Hawkins. Not that I can recall.
Mr. AIouLDER. Do you recall the subject of your conversation on
the occasion you went to his home?
Dr. Hawkins. I recall one subject, wliich we continued through
several conversations, very well. This is my chief recollection of
Dr. Weinberg. Would you like me to go into that?
jMr. Moulder. Yes.
Dr. Hawkins. It is the problem of free will in relation to, or in
contrast with, casuality or fate. We discussed this in terms of the
point of view developed in modern physics, particularly dev^eloped
in the school of physics, the institute, in Denmark.
I remember the discussion very well because it was one of my first
serious efforts to unravel this age-old problem which never gets
unraveled. The point of view of modern physics is that some of the
old ideas of cause and effect break down in the whole range of modern
physics. The question has arisen in many people's mind whether
this breakdown of those ideas in that field may not imply some
correspondmg breakdown in the field of human life, and whether, if
3432 'COMMUNirST infiltration of atomic bomb PROJE'CT
this is the case, it may not be so that the old idea of free will, which
everybody has always believed in anyway, and which philosophers
have always believed in
Mr. Moulder. That was the general subject?
Dr. Hawkins. That was the general subject, yes.
Mr. Velde. Do you recall when that discussion took place?
Dr. Hawkins. I would guess late in 1942 or early 1943.
Mr. Velde. Was Dr. Weinberg employed at the radiation labora-
tory at that time?
Dr. Hawkins. To my knowledge he was a member of the physics
department. I don't laiow what his status was there.
Mr. Velde. Did he talk about his work any in that connection?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir, not at all.
Mr. Velde. You knew, of course, that he was specializing in the
field of nuclear physics?
Dr. Hawkins. I think most of the people there did. I didn't
have any special knowledge of his field.
Mr. Velde. Did you have any work in the field of nuclear physics?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Mr. Velde. That is all.
Mr. Moulder. Proceed.
Mr. Tavennem. Did you become acquainted with Steve Nelson?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell us the circumstances under which
you met him and your relationship with him?
Dr. Hawkins. I barely became acquainted with him. I know that
it was not social. At least, I am reasonably sure it was not just some
social gathering. I presume it was some conversation that I had
with him with respect to some Communist Party affairs.
Mr. Tavenner. When did you first become acquainted with him?
Dr. Hawkins. This would have been in the period after I came
back to Berkeley the second time.
Mr. Tavenner. Had you met him before you went to Palo Alto?
Dr. Hawkins. I don't believe I had.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the occasion for j^our meeting him after
your return to Berkeley in the fall of 1941?
Dr. Hawkins. I find it very difficult to figure out what the occasion
might have been. It was nothing which stuck in my memory.
Mr. Tavenner. You say it probably pertained to Communist
Party work. You were not identified, as I understand, with the
Merriman branch at that time?
Dr. Hawkins. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Does that mean it was in connection with party
work in San Francisco?
Dr. Hawkins. No. I don't think it could have meant that.
Mr. ISTelson, as I recall, had some official position in the Alameda
County Communist Party, and I think I may have seen him altogether
once or twice in some connection which is completely obscure.
Mr. Tavenner. You have been to the Communist Party head-
quarters in San Francisco, have you not?
Dr. Hawkins. I think I was there once. I have a recollection of
going to a place which I remember because of a feeling of trepidation
I had in going there. I think I was there once.
Mr. Tavenner. Whom did you meet on that occasion?
COMMljWIST I^riLTRATIOlsi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3433
Dr. Hawkins. I believe it may have been a lady named Gannett.
Mr. Velde. Was it Louise Todd Lambert?
Dr. Hawkins. No, I don't think so.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it Betty Gannett?
Dr. Hawkins. It may have been.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Betty Gannett?
Dr. Hawkins. If this is the lady I have reference to, I met her on
that occasion.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the purpose of your visit?
Dr. Hawkins. I don't know. It may have had something to do
with ideas I had voiced about Communist Party policies, or something
of that sort.
Mr. Tavenner. Could it have had anj^thing to do with a proposed
lecture or talk that you were to give at the labor school?
Dr. Hawkins. I might have, but I don't recall ever giving such a
talk. I believe I said this morning that I do recall I was asked to
give a course in the history of philosophy.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall whether yom' conversation with Betty
Gannett on that occasion had any connection with the labor school?
Dr. Hawkins. I don't recall.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you meet at the Communist Party head-
quarters in San Francisco a person by the name of Pearl E. Freeman?
Dr. Hawkins. I believe not.
Mr, Tavenner. Who later went to Hawaii with her husband as
organizer of the Communist Party in Hawau?
Dr. Hawkins. The name means nothing to me at all.
Mr. Tavenner. With fm^ther reference to Steve Nelson, where did
you meet him, in Berkeley or in San Francisco?
Dr. Hawkins. I believe in Berkeley.
Mr. Tavenner. How many times do you think you met him there?
Dr. Hawkins. I believe once or twice.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he search you out, or did you search him out?
Dr. Hawkins. I don't recall that there was any searching at all.
Mr. Tavenner. You would know how the meeting came about;
wouldn't you?
Mr. Fanelli. Mr. Chairman, off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. Tavenner. A person of the importance of Steve Nelson, who
was at that time the organizer for Alameda County, and a person with
a verj^ dynamic personality — —
Dr. Hawkins. I recall that impression of him.
Mr. Tavenner (continuing). It would seem a little strange that
jou would not recollect any of the circumstances under which you
met him.
Dr. Hawkins. I might be able to recall some incidental chcum-
stances. I believe that I met him in a restaurant or some place of
that sort,
Mr. Tavenner. This may serve to refresh your recollection.
There is information in the committee's files to the effect that he went
to the various Communist gTOup meetings and delivered lectures on
various subjects. I am positive I am correct in my recollection that
one of the lectures he gave was on Spain, a subject you have shown
some interest in. Does that serve to refresh your recollection?
3434 COMMUNIST INT^rLTE'ATTONi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
Dr. Hawkins. No. I have never heard him lecture, I don't think,
anywhere. I beheve he had been in some fairly important position in
regard to the international brigade in Spain, but I had no conversation
with him on that subject and didn't hear him talk about it.
Mr. Velde. Have you ever been in his home?
Dr. Hawkins. I don't know. I have a recollection of going some
place with some one other person, I don't remember who, to see him,
and I have partly a picture of some restaurant. I don't know if yon
know the map of Berkeley, but Berkeley is contiguous to Oakland,
and I remember going in that direction, and I have a dim recollection
of going to some house. Whether it was his house or not, I don't know,
Mr. Velde. I think Steve Nelson, during the time he was in the
international brigade in Spain, became acquainted with Togliatti as
well as Tito. Did he ever discuss with you Togliatti and Tito?
Dr. Hawkins. No. These were very brief meetings that had noth-
ing to do with any large-scale political significance of any kind.
Mr. Velde. Have you ever been in Communist Party headquarters
in Oakland?
Dr. Hawkins. I believe not.
Mr. Velde. Do you know where they were?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. Moulder. I believe the point of Mr. Tavenner's question is
whether your meeting with Steve Nelson was by appointment or by
accident.
Dr. Hawkins. It was not an accidental encounter, because I didn't
know the man. As I recollect, I was with some other one person.
Mr. AlouLDER. Then it was by previous arrangement?
Dr. Hawkins. I don't know. It must have been, but I have no
recollection.
Mr. Tavenner. Was the person who accompanied you a member
of your own party cell in San Francisco, or was he affiliated with the
branch in Berkeley?
Dr. Haskins. He was not a member of the branch I was aflSiliated
with in San Francisco, I am sure of that.
Mr, Tavenner. Was he a student?
Dr. Hawkins. I assume he was someone connected with the
Alameda set-up or with the Berkeley set-up. It may have been
Kenneth May, whom I knew as a Communist Party member, and
whom I had known for some time. This is the only person I can
think of that it might plausibly have been, but this is conjecture on
my part.
Mr. Moulder. Mr. Tavenner wanted to know if he was attempting
to contact jou and others attending the university to attend a meeting.
Dr. Hawkins. I was never asked by him to attend a meeting. Of
that I would be quite sure.
Mr. Tavenner. How many people were present on the occasion
you spoke about meeting Steve Nelson?
Dr. Hawkins. If my recollection is correct there was this other
person and myself meeting Steve Nelson, and for a very brief period.
Mr. Tavenner. After discussing the details of that meeting, can't
you now recall who the individual was who accompanied you?
Dr. Hawkins. No, I cannot. I believe it may have been Kenneth
May, but I don't recollect.
Mr. Tavenner. Was the meeting held at your suggestion, or at
your comrade's suggestion?
COMMUNIST lAlF'ILTRATIONi OF ATOJVUC BOMB PROJECT 3435
Dr. Hawkins, I certainly wouldn't have had any reason to suggest
it myself.
Mr. Tavenner. How frequently did you see Steve Nelson after
that?
Dr. Hawkins. I think I saw him altogether probably twice or
possibly three times.
Mr. Tavenner. Tell us what you recall of the other meetings.
Dr. Hawkins. This is all blurred into one meeting, of having
met Steve Nelson. He is a rather forceful type of person. But I
know nothing about him other than that he was at that time the
head of the Alameda County Communist Party, and other than that
fact, he was a veteran of the Spanish civil war and considerably ad-
mired by people who talked to him simply because of this rather
romantic experience.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you alone when you spoke to him?
Dr. Hawkins. I don't recall any meeting with him with more than
this one possible person, and as I have tried to say, my memory of
this is composite and very far from as clear as you or I would like
to have it.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Jordan Carson Mark?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell us the circumstances under which
you met him?
Dr. Hawkins. I met Mr. Mark at Los Alamos when he came there
with the British mission, I believe. I believe he was a Canadian who
came to Los Alamos at the time several of the British came to Los
Alamos.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell us the character of your employment
at Los Alamos?
Dr. Hawkins. I find it difficult to explain the nature of my job.
It was called administrative aide. My job was, rouglily, to do all
of the things that needed to be done and for which there was no regular
administrative officer available. I was a sort of handy man or trouble
shooter in an administrative capacity.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat were some of the fields in which you worked
while you were there? And you were there from 1943 to 1946, I
understand?
Dr. Hawkins. That is right. My first job, I well remember, was
in connection with draft deferment of some of the younger members
of the scientific staff. When I got there, a man who had been there
and who actually preceded me by 3 weeks had been getting out draft
deferment forms and so on and set up the routine. Then when I
came along I was asked to take this job over, and I formally repre-
sented the laboratory in signing letters requesting draft deferments.
Another job which I had at this time was drafting a book of regu-
lations for people who worked in the laboratory. The rules were
established, but they were not codified. For example, we had restric-
tions on travel at Los Alamos.
Mr. Tavenner. For security reasons?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes. And I did that drafting job. I was in the
personnel office of the laboratory in a secondary capacity for quite a
long while; and I was a kind of representative of the laboratory in
terms of the three-cornered relationship that existed between the
civilian community of Los Almos, which was a town that had lots of
3436 COMMUNIST INTTLTR'ATION' OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
wives and children and dogs; the laboratory; and the United States
Engineers. I was a kind of representative from the point of view of
the laboratory on some of the problems that arose. If a dog bit a
child, and the dog turned out to be the dog of a very important
technician, I would have to worry about whether banning the dog
would cause the technician to leave and go to another war job. We
had a community council at Los Alamos, and I had to meet with the
council, together with a representative of the United States Engineers.
Mr. Tavenner. As administrative assistant, who was your
superior?
Dr. Hawkins. Mr. Oppenheimer.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Frank Oppenheimer?
Dr. Hawkins. No, Mr. Robert Oppenheimer. During the early
period there weren't enough administrative officers, and everybody
who worked there had Mr. Oppenheimer as his immediate superior,
but later on I worked mainly under the personnel director, Dr.
Hughes, and, later on. Dr. Shane.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you apply for the position there, or was it
tendered to you?
Dr. Hawkins. It was tendered to me.
Dr. Tavenner. By whom?
Mr. Hawkins. By my former boss at the university, now dean of
the graduate school, W. R. Dennis.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you required to give references when you
accepted the position?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were your references?
Dr. Hawkins. One of my references I am quite sure of was Dr.
Henry W. Stewart, who had been the man who had first interested me
in philosophy as a career at Stanford when I was an undergraduate.
I find it hard at this moment to recall other references. I think there
were three or four others, but I recall him particularly.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall others?
Dr. Hawkins. I believe Mr. Dennis may have been one of my
references, though he is the one who tendered the job to me. Perhaps
some other member of the philosophy department.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien you left San Francisco for Los Alamos, you
were then a member of the Communist Party m San Francisco ; were
you not?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir. The dates of my departure from the Com-
munist Party and my departure for New Mexico are close. If you
would like me to go into that, I will.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Dr. Hawkins. In the period between the invasion of Norway and
the invasion of Russia by Germany, I had not been satisfied with the
position of the Communist Party, and found it very difficult to meet
arguments made at that time that the American and other Com-
munist Parties were more interested in Russia * than in America.
After the invasion of Russia this particular problem didn't exist as an
immediate problem, because the American Communist Party took a
position which was hardly distinguishable from any other position at
this point.
I think a much more fundamental reason in my case was that I felt
increasingly, as a member of the university community, as a political,
COM'MU'^^ST IXOFILTRATIOXi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3437
I hoped, professor in philosophy, and as a person who wanted to hve
in the fuller sense of the word among my colleagues and students, that
continued membership in the Communist Party would create a gap,
and almost necessarily a duplicity.
Mr. Tavenner. You told us that when you moved back to the
University of California in the fall of 1941.
Dr. Hawkins. That was a partial step.
Mr. Tavenner. This was 1943.
Dr. Hawkins. I believed it was possible to continue being in the
Communist Party provided it did not become involved in my pro-
fessional life. Later on I realized it could not be involved in my life
in any way. I withdrew because I wanted to be able to stand for
what I stand for and have no reservations or secrets about it.
Mr. Tavenner. Did jou offer a written resignation?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
ISIr. Tavenner. What evidence, then, do 3-ou have that 3^ou
actually did resign?
Dr. Hawkins. No evidence of that sort, and I think no evidence
except my life since then.
Mr. Tavenner. To whom did you pay Communist Party dues while
you were a member in the various branches that you were a member of?
Dr. Hawkins. I presume I paid them to somebody in the various
branches designated as treasurer.
Mr. Tavenner. Having paid those dues from 1938 to 1943,
5 years, you certainly know the names of persons to whom you paid
the money?
Dr. Hawkins. There was no one person. My recollection is, this
job was a very informal job, and I don't recall any one person in the
campus branch or in Palo Alto or in San Francisco who was designated
as treasurer for a long period of time.
Mr. Tavenner. But you would know the individuals to whom you
paid your dues; wouldn't you?
Dr. Hawkins. I might in some instances.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were they?
Dr. Hawkins. I don't recall.
Mr. Tavenner. How much did you pay per month?
Dr. Hawkins. I don't recall, but it must not have been very much,
otherwise I would have been a non-Communist for financial reasons.
Mr. Tavenner. You have identified for us the names of the chair-
men of the Palo Alto branch and the Merriman branch. Can 3 ou tell
us who was the treasm^er at any one time?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir. This was a matter in which I had no inter-
est and no concern.
Mr. Tavenner. Who was chairman of the professional branch in
San Francisco?
Dr. Hawkins. I don't recollect any of those individuals as the
chairman. I believe the\" must have either had no chairman, or in
some mformal way rotated among themselves. I think I explained
to you that I met with this group, but I was never involved in its
activities in an^^ major way.
Mr. Tavenner. Can 3^ou recall the person to whom \^ou last paid
your Communist Party dues?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the date on which you paid 3^our last
Communist Party dues, or approximate date?
3438 COMMUNIST INT-ILTR'ATTON OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
Dr. Hawkins. I believe I must have paid dues through February
or March, but I can't fix the date. There wasn't a wide gap between
my leaving the Communist Party and my entry into war work. I
would say that a secondary, but quite real, reason for my leaving
that area was the feeling that I would then be completely disassociated.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever pay Communist Party dues after
gomg to Los Alamos?
Dr. Hawkins. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever attend a Communist Party meeting
of any kind after you went to Los Alamos?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Mr, Tavenner. That brings me back to the question I was asking
you as to cu-cumstances under which you became acquainted with
Jordan Carson Mark. Will you proceed with your explanation of
that now?
Dr. Hawkins. He was a member of the British mission, as I recall,
and came to Los Alamos from the Canadian atomic energy project.
He was known to me casually, and only in that connection. He was
a mathematician by profession, and his job, as I recall it, had to do
with mathematical computations and things of that sort. I met him
around the laboratory and knew him as I knew other people.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Dr. Allen Nunn May there during the time
Mr, Mark was there?
Dr. Hawkins. I am quite certain he was not,
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Dr. Allen Nunn May?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. The records of our committee indicate that on
July 8, 1946, you made a speech at the Episcopal Church, Albuquerque,
N. Mex., in which you defended Dr. Allen Nunn May. Is that cor-
rect, and if it is, do you have any explanation you desire to make of
it?
Dr. Hawkins. I recollect the speech that I made at a church in
Albuquerque about that time; 1946, did you say?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Dr. Hawkins. I would be quite certain I did not defend Dr. May.
I may have offered a probable explanation of his behavior, but it
would not have been one which in any sense condoned that behavior,
I might say this is a subject on which I have talked rather fre-
quently, not Dr. Allen Nunn May, but I have talked to my friends and
acquaintances a lot about this, that it seems strange to me that the
most romantic kind of wrong-headedness could lead a person to
espionage, when from my point of view the whole point of the inter-
nationalism of science is that it provides a moral bond between nations,
and that people in different countries who give away their country's
secrets are not helping the international movement. However, I
can appreciate that the actions of a man like May — whom I did not
know but take him as typical of the romantic and wrong-headed
groups — may have come not from base but altruistic motives. I
think that is the kind of thing I might have said.
I might add one further explanation here for my behavior at that
particular meeting. Before this meeting I was invited to the house
of a friend in Albuquerque, and I was not very familiar with this
business of public speaking at that time, and she gave me a rather
stiff drink which she said would put me in shape to talk, and I tried
coM'ivruosnsT iistiltration' of atomic bomb project 3439
very hard to eat a large dinner afterward, but I am afraid I was a dis-
grace to the pulpit, because I definitely felt on the high side; but I
know very well my own views on that subject before and since.
IVIr. Tavenner. Did you then, or have you now, any knowledge
of how Dr. Allen Nunn jMay obtamed samples of U-235?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Mr. Moulder. We will recess for about 20 minutes.
(Thereupon, at 3:10 p. m., a recess was taken until 3:30 p. m.)
Mr. Moulder. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall the passage of the Dilworth anti-
Communist bill by the legislature of California?
Dr. Hawkins. Not by that name; no, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you active in opposition to any anti-
Communist bill before the California State Legislature?
Dr. Hawkins. I certainly wasn't very active with respect to any
legislative bills. I frankly was not a very politically active person.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you not asked, either directly b}^ Louise
Bransten or in a way that it originated from Louise Bransten, to go
to Sacramento, Calif., to lobby against the Dilworth anti-Communist
bUl?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir. I may have gotten something tlu-ough the
mail. I certainly never went or contemplated going to Sacramento
to lobby against any bill.
Mr. Tavenner. Then you did receive an invitation to go?
Dr. Hawkins. I say I may have. People get a lot of things through
the mail of that sort.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Leonard Trainer Pockman?
Dr. Hawkins. He is my brother-in-law.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know him to be a member of the North
Side Club of the Communist Political Association in San Francisco,
or at least to have been in 1944?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever sit in a Commmiist Party meeting
with him?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you any knowledge of the delivery by him
of technical papers and documents to Anna Louise Strong for delivery
to Russian scientists or emissaries?
Dr. Hawkins. Absolutely not.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he a member of the Communist Party, to
your knowledge?
Dr. Hawkins. At any time, su-?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Dr. Hawkins. Alay I repeat my earlier suggestions, and may I
have your permission to consult with my counsel if you wish to press
that question?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. I will have to press that question.
(Witness confers with his counsel.)
Dr. Hawkins. Mr. Chairman, I have a statement I would like to
make. May I read this, it is a brief statement?
Mr. Moulder. In order that the record will be clear, let us proceed
in an orderly manner on the question, and then you can present your
request for permission to read a statement, because we don't know
what the outcome of the questioning may be or whether your state-
ment will be responsive.
3440 COMMUNIST INTILTR'ATION' OF ATOINIIC BOMB PROJECT
Mr. Tavenner. Will you answer the question?
Dr. Hawkins. May I read the statement, sir?
Mr. Moulder. Kepeat the question, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Leonard Pockman a member of the Com-
munist Party at any time, to your knowledge?
Dr. Hawkins. Now may I read the statement?
Mr. Tavenner. I understood the chairman's ruling to be that you
would first be required to answer the question, and then, depending
on the answer, he would pass on your request for permission to read
the statement.
Air. Fanelli. I may state that this statement is a respectful
declinature to answer the question.
Air. AIouLDER. Alake any statement you may desire to make in
answer to the question.
Dr. Hawkins. I have conferred with counsel. I can say that I
know of nothing connecting my brother-in-law, Leonard Pockman,
with espionage or any other criminal activity. Beyond that, my
brother-in-law has, on grounds of invasion of his contitutional rights,
declined to sign the State oath for California employees. Since he
insists on his constitutional right of free thought and association, I am
unwilling to invade that right for him. I, again, humbly request j^ou
gentlemen to forego further questions of me as to him. If 3^ou insist
on an answer, I must, without intent of leaving any implication,
respectfully decline to answer; and, in doing so, claim, on advice of
counsel, all legal and constitutional rights that I may have, including
the protection of the fii*st and fourth amendments.
Alay I please, sir, have another question?
Air. AlouLDER. You have referred to your brother-in-law. Wlio is
your brother-in-law referred to in the answer you have just read?
Dr. Hawkins. Leonard Trainer Pockman.
Air. Tavenner. Then do I understand that you refuse to answer
the question?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes, sir.
Air. Fanelli. Air. Chairman, I would like to say in the \^^tness'
behalf that he has endeavored to cooperate with the committee. He
has answered most of the questions you have asked.
Air. AlouLDER. Of course the record will speak for itself.
Mr. Fanelli. I understand. I do want to say that this particular
question •
Air. AlouLDER. Let us proceed, Mr. Counsel, v^dth the interrogation
of the witness.
Air. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with Jack Clark Pockman,
brother of Leonard Pockman?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes, sir.
Air. Tavenner. How long have you known him?
Dr. Hawkins. Since, I would say, 1936 orl937. I met all of my
wife's brothers at the time or shortlv after I met her, which was in
1936.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever attend a Communist Party meeting
with him?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. That is, with Jack Clark Pockman?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Air. Tavenner. Was Jack Clark Pockman a member of the Com-
munist Party during the year 1944, to your knowledge?
COMMUNIST IXriLTRATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3441
Dr. Hawkins. I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. You do not know?
Dr. Hawkins. I do not know. I made the same answer with
reference to Mr. Leonard Pockman in 1944.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether either of the two, Leonard
Pockman or Jack Clark Pockman, were members of the Communist
Party at any time?
Dr. Hawkins. I dechned, sir, to answer that question in the case of
Leonard Pockman, and I feel that I must also decline to answer in the
same way in respect to Mr. Jack Clark Pockman.
Mr. Tavenner. I return now to the question asked you earlier in
the course of your testimony as to whether or not Philip Morrison
was known to you to be a member of the Communist Party; and I will
have to state to you that as far as I am concerned as counsel, I cannot
accept your explanation as to the reason why you are reluctant to
testify. It is quite possible that this individual, as well as other
persons whose names you have declined to give, may be today active
in communism, at a time when it is important to the defense of this
country, as well as for the legislative purposes of this committee, to
know about those things. Therefore, I will have to insist that you
answer.
Dr. Hawkins. I have asked in turn, might it not be possible that
your committee could find out these matters in a more direct and
satisfactory manner, and had hoped you would not press me to
answer them.
Mr. Tavenner. If Philip Morrison be a Communist Party member
at this time, would you expect him to admit it?
Dr. Hawkins. I believe that is a kind of hypothetical question
which is inconsistent with my knowledge of Mr. Philip Morrison.
Mr. Moulder. May I suggest you propound the question again,
Mr. Tavenner?
Mr. Tavenner. Is Philip Morrison a member of the Communist
Party to your knowledge at this time, or has he ever at any time been
a member of the Communist Party?
Dr. Hawkins. Might I separate those questions?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes. I will break it up. Has Philip Morrison
been a member of the Communist Party at any time, to your
knowledge?
Dr. Hawkins. I would prefer to answer the other part of the
question, if I may.
Mr. Tavenner. No; I would like you to answer that question.
Dr. Hawkins. I have conferred with counsel, and I can say that I
know of nothing connecting Philip Morrison with espionage or any
other criminal activity. Beyond that, I am unwilling to testify. If
you insist on more, I must respectfully decline to answer; and, in
doing so, claim, on advice of my counsel, all legal and constitutional
rights that I might have, including the protection of the first amend-
ment.
Mr. Tavenner. Then you refuse to answer the question?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know of any espionage activity on the
part of any individual?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Is Philip Morrison a Communist today, as far
as you know?
3442 COMMXJNUST INFILTRATION' OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
Dr. Hawkins. I believe that he is not.
Mr. Tavenner. What is the basis of your beUef?
Dr. Hawkins. Mr. Morrison is a man with whom I have discussed
pohtical matters at some length, and I believe that his views are
incompatible with the views of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. When was the last time you talked to him on that
subject?
Dr. Hawkins. I can't recall the last time I talked to him on that
subject precisely, but I believe it may have been last summer.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien was the first time you talked to him on that
subject when you gained such an impression?
Dr. Hawkins. I came to know Mr. Morrison fairly well in the
period of the war. As I recall, he came to Los Alamos in 1944,
possibly; and my conversations -with him from that time would very
strongly indicate he was not in sympathy with the Communist Party
position.
Mr. Tavenner. Would you think that a statement made by
him in defense of Eugene Dennis, one of the 11 Communists tried in
New York, as reported by the Daily W^orker on May 5, 1950, would
be consistent with his change in attitude toward the Communist
Party?
Dr. Hawkins. I woud have to see the contents of the statement.
I believe there are many reasons and many connections in which a
man might be defended. I don't know anything about this particular
statement.
Mr. Tavenner. Dr. Philip Morrison, according to information in
the hands of the committee, was a supporter of the World Peace
Appeal in June 1950. Would you think that a person active in
support of that particidar work would be favoring communism?
Dr. Hawkins. I would think that an individual might support — -
personally, I did not — might support such an appeal as this without
being, or without necessarily giving any indication of being, a member
of the Communist Party.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever been a member or an official of the
National Ceuncil of the Arts, Sciences, and Professions?
Dr. Hawkins. I believe I sent them $2 once.
Mr. Tavenner. When was that?
Dr. Hawkins. That would have been in 1948 or possibly 1949.
I have never been an official.
Mr. Tavenner. According to information in the possession of the
committee, Dr. Hawkins in October 1948 sponsored a conference
entitled "To Safeguard These Rights," at the instance of the Bureau
of Academic Freedom of the National Council of the Arts, Sciences,
and Professions. I believe you were one of the sponsors of this con-
ference; is that correct?
Dr. Hawkins. I believe I may well have been.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you explain to the committee how you became
interested in and joined the National Council of the Arts, Sciences,
and Professions, and how it happened that you became a sponsor of
the conference referred to?
Mr. Fanelli. He said he might have been a sponsor, but your
question includes an assumption he was a member. He said he sent
$2. Maybe that made him a member. I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. What was yom* purpose in sending them $2?
COMlVrXMIST INFILTRATIONi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3443
Dr. Hawkins. That was in response to an appeal for funds; and
in relation to your latter question in regard to the National Council
of Arts, Sciences, and Professions, since the end of the war I have been
personally very much interested in the opportunities that are avail-
able to people in my profession to be concerned with political affairs
of one sort or another, and I have great respect for the integrity of
some of the people who seem to be sponsoring this National Council,
and while I had no way of knowing whether this was an organization
which Communists might support, I at least believed that it was not
run as a Communist-front organization. I therefore supported it in
line with my general views on such matters.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you explain how jou were invited to become
a sponsor of this particular conference?
Dr. Hawkins. I don't recollect. I think I probably got an appeal
through the mails. I already knew something of the National Council,
and I did it on that basis.
Air. Tavenner. The program of the Cultural and Scientific Confer-
ence for World Peace, which was sponsored b}^ the National Council
of the Arts, Sciences, and Professions, lists a Dr. David Hawkins as a
sponsor of the conference. Are you the Dr. David Hawkins listed in
that connection?
Dr. Hawkins. Is this the Waldorf-Astoria conference?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Dr. Hawkins. Yes; I believe I was a sponsor.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state the circumstances under which
you were invited to serve as such sponsor?
Dr. Hawkins. I believe I got the invitation tlirough the mail, and
primarih" my sponsorship was in terms of my knowledge of some of
the people who were interested in organizing it. This was a confer-
ence w^hose aims I very much believed in, and still do. I think its
actual performance was such that those aims were not furthered, and
I would not, without great hesitation, sponsor such an effort again.
(Hon. Morgan M. Aloulder left hearing room, and Hon. Harold H.
Velde presided.)
Mr. Tavenner. Are you presently, or have you ever been, a mem-
ber of the Civil Rights Congress?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir; I believe not.
Mr. Tavenner. The program of the Bill of Rights Conference held
in New York City July 16 and 17, 1949, lists one Professor Hawkins,
University of Colorado, as a sponsor of the Bill of Rights Conference.
Does that refresh your recollection?
Dr. Hawkins. What was that conference called?
Mr. Tavenner. Bill of Rights Conference, at which Paul Robeson
was the principal speaker.
Dr. Hawkins. What was the date?
Mr. Tavenner. July 16 and 17, 1949.
Dr. Hawkins. I am sorry to ask so many detail questions. Where
was this conference?
Mr. Tavenner. It was held in New York City at the Henry
Hudson Hotel.
Dr. Hawkins. I have no present recollection of having sponsored
it, but I believe I may have. I was not a member of the Civil Rights
Congress. I presumably did sponsor this particular conference.
Mr. Tavenner. How did it occur that you sponsored the conference
if you were not a member of the Civil Rights Congress?
3444 COMMimTST INFILTR'ATIONi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
Dr. Hawkins. I have gotten literature from the Civil Rights
Congress many times. This must be one of those numerous appeals
which, as a supporter of civil rights, I would have sponsored.
Mr. Tavenner. You have spoken of having knowledge of people
who were interested in these various projects which you sponsored.
Did the Communist Party or any Communist Party members play
any part in obtaining your action in sponsoring those meetings?
Dr. Hawkins. Certainly not the Communist Party. I have no
knowledge of anyone's Communist Party membership since the time
of my own withdrawal from the party.
Mr. Tavenner. The Daily Worker issue of July 18, 1950, in an
article entitled "Colorado Students, Teachers, Flay Mundt Bill,"
states that after speeches by Prof. Zachariah Chafee, of Harvard Law
School, Dr. Karl G. Douglass, professor of education, and Dr. David
Hawkins, professor of philosophy, both of Colorado University, that
the Colorado students and faculty, by a vote of 350 to 3, adopted a
resolution urging the Senate of the United States to defeat the
Mundt-Nixon bill.
Dr. Hawkins. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you please outline to the committee all
knowledge you possess as to how tliis meeting was arranged, how the
speakers were selected, and how the resolutions were prepared and
presented for adoption at this meeting?
Dr. Hawkins. I believe there was a student committee on the
Mundt-Nixon bill, opposed to it, and I believe they asked Professor
Chafee and Professor Douglass and myself to speak on their program.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know anything about the nature of that
student council or group, as to the nature of the organization?
Dr. Hawkins. My recollection is not clear on that, but I believe it
was an ad hoc committee that was organized by the students. I may
be wrong about that.
Mr. Tavenner. Someone or some group had to be mstrumental in
doing that organizational work. Do you have any knowledge as to
who those individuals were?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. How were you invited to take part in the meeting?
Dr. Hawkins. As I recollect, by some student or group of students
who came to see me and asked if I would speak.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you take any part in planning the meeting, or
the nature of the program?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir. I might say this was not the students and
faculty of the University of Colorado. It was the students and
faculty which came to this particular meeting, which I recall quite well.
Mr. Tavenner. Was there a group at the University of Colorado
known as the Marxist Study Group?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes, sh.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it the group to which you referred who
organized this meeting?
Dr. Hawkins. I am quite sure it was not.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell us the circumstances under which the
Marxist Study Group was formed?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; I can tell you something about that. The
circumstances, as I remember them, were these: A number of students
came to me and asked me if I would be a sponsor of such a group. I
COMMUNIST IKIFILTRATIONi OF ATOMIC BOMB PR0JE(7r 3445
might explain what sponsorship impHes. On our campus, any student
organization can be formed if it is of a type allowed by the university
authorities and has a requirement of some faculty sponsorship. The
significance of this sponsorship is that the faculty member involved
promises to attend a certain percentage of the meetings of the group
and see to it that they don't do anything foolish. If they don't find
anyone who is willing to be a sponsor, sometimes the dean of the college
will appoint a sponsor. Sponsorship does not imply any part in the
organization other than that if they do not behave themselves the
faculty member mvolved will prevail on them to behave themselves or
withdraw his sponsorship.
Air. Tavenner. Will you explain to the committee the nature of the
meetings of the Marxist Study Group?
Dr. Hawkins. I recall two or three meetings of this group. One
of them was a talk given by m3'self at their invitation on biology,
having, as far as I can tell, nothing to do with Marxism. The other
meetmg which I recall was a discussion of the problem in relation to
Marxism of the state and revolution. I believe they had some other
meetmgs which I did not attend.
Mr. Tavenner. Do j^ou know the names of any other guest
speakers?
Dr. Hawkins. I believe that this study group had a meeting at
which they invited some member of the Colorado Communist Party
to speak. I don't recall his name or the circumstances.
Mr. Tavenner. Was his name Art Barry, B-a-r-r-y?
Dr. Hawkins. I believe it was.
Mr. Tavenner. He was the Colorado regional director of the
Communist Part}^, was he not?
Dr. Hawkins. I am not sure of that.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he a member of the student body at the time?
Dr. Hawkins. No ; he was an outside speaker.
Mr. Tavenner. Had he attended Colorado University to your
knowledge?
Dr. Hawkins. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know of any instances in which lectures
were given in opposition to the ^Marxist theories?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes, sir.
Air. Tavenner. At these meetings?
Dr. Hawkins. At the meetings of the Alarxist Study Group?
Air. Tavenner. Yes.
Dr. Hawkins. Yes, sir. I believe they had two or three members
of the university faculty, or perhaps four or five, at one time or
another, speak in opposition to the Alarxist theories.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend the meeting addressed by the
Communist Party regional director?
Dr. Hawkins, Air. Barry?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Dr. Hawkins. Yes, sir. I was very careful to attend that meeting.
Air. Tavenner. What was the subject of his address, if you recall?
Dr. Hawkins. Everything. He talked about his position with
respect to the Communist Party as a whole. He said things which,
in terms of my earlier backgi'ound, sounded pretty famihar. That is,
he outlined the idea of this international working-class movement,
and so on. Then he very strongly defended the present position —
76878—51 3
3446 COMMUNIST INIFILTRATIOKI OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
as of that time — not only of the American Communist Party but also
of all other Communist Parties. He was questioned rather carefully
and rather hostilely by the audience with reference to, I remember
particularly, the invasion of Czechoslovakia, and he had no light to
thi'ow on that other than that quoted by the Russian press.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall the subject of his address?
Dr. Hawkins. The title?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Dr. Hawkins. No; I don't.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it "Force and Violence"?
Dr. Hawkins. It may have been. I don't know. I would think
that would be a rather surprising title, but I am not sure.
Mr. Tavenner. I have a photostatic reproduction of the Pink
Buffalo, a publication of the Marxist Stud}'^ Group, announcing that
Art Barry, regional director of the Communist Party, would be a
speaker on Force and Violence at a meeting on November 18. Is
that the meeting to which you refer?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes.
Mr. Velde. What year was that?
Mr. Tavenner. What year was that?
Dr. Hawkins. I think 1948 or 1949. I think you have just stated
the year.
Mr. Tavenner. No; the photostat doesn't show the year.
Dr. Hawkins. I could probably reconstruct the date. It was in
the summertime.
Mr. Fanelli. Will 3^ou ask whether the Pink Buffalo was a serious
publication?
Mr. Velde. The committee has a rule that the counsel may confer
with the witness, but may not ask any questions.
Mr. Fanelli. I beg your pardon. I will withdraw the request
Mr. Tavenner. Who was Herbert J. Phillips?
Dr. Hawkins. Mr. Phillips was a man who had been fired from the
University of W^ashington because of past or present, I forget which,
Communist Party membership; present, I think.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he also one of the speakers before this
Marxist Study Group?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he connected with the University of Colorado
in any manner?
Dr. Hawkins. I believe he was one of the guest speakers of the
Marxist Study Group.
Mr. Tavenner. But did he have any position, or was he attached
in any way to the faculty of the University of Colorado?
Dr. Hawkins. Definitely not.
Mr. Tavenner. How were his expenses paid?
Dr. Hawkins. I don't think they were, but I don't know. I
believe he was passing through Denver at the time.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you a member of the American Association of
Scientific Workers?
Dr. Hawkins. I am a member, perhaps, in this sense: That last
year I sent them the amount of 1 years' membership.
Mr. Tavenner. Ai-e you also a member of the Committee for the
First Amendment?
Dr. Hawkins. This name doesn't bring any recollections. Oh,
yes. There is a student group on the campus of the university which
COMMUNIST IKFILTRATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3447
has this name. I attended one or two of the meetings. I am not a
member that I know of. I don't know what membership in this
group consists of, but I was certainly one of the persons consulted
by various students when they formed this group, and I went to a
couple of their meetings.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it patterned and formed after the National
Committee for the Fhst Amendment?
Dr. Hawkins. I don't believe it was. I believe that was a purely
spontaneous local group.
Mr. Tavenner. Did the American Association of Scientific Workers,
the Committee for the First Amendment, and the Young Progressives
organization sponsor the meeting at which you spoke agamst the
Mundt-Nixon bill?
Dr. Hawkins. I am not certain who sponsored that meeting. I
seem to recollect it to have been the Committee for the First Amend-
ment, but I doubt very much it would have been the Marxist Study
Group, because I was making every effort to keep that group a study
group.
Mr. Tavenner. I desu-e to ask you who were the members of the
Merriman branch or campus branch of the Communist Party at the
University of California at the time you were there?
Dr. Hawkins. You desire to ask me now?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Dr. Hawkins. In the first place, I have a very, very hazy recollec-
tion of the membership of that branch. I at this point think I would
have great difficulty in giving the membership of it or a substantial
part of the membership.
Air. Tavenner. I can understand you would be in doubt about
the names of all of them. I am only asking for the names of those
you can definitely identify as members.
Dr. Hawkins. My knowledge of that branch is limited to the period
when I first joined the Communist Party. I think the people I might
name are not now Communists and are good, law-abiding, and
patriotic citizens, and I feel I must take toward this question the
sarne position I have taken with respect to questions about certain
individuals.
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, you desire to take upon yourself
the responsibility of determining whether or not these mdividuals are
law-abiding citizens, and are unwilling to leave that determination
to arms of the Government which have the duty upon them to investi-
gate such matters?
Dr. Hawkins. As I said before, my attitude on this matter is
dependent on my present state of knowledge and belief, but in view
of my present knowledge and belief that is the position I feel I must
take.
Mr. Tavenner. And for those reasons you decline to answer the
question?
Dr. Hawkins. I would take the same position with reference to
this question as I have taken with respect to other questions.
Mr. Tavenner. I ask you to tell the committee the names of the
members of the professional branch of the Communist Party in San
Francisco from the fall of 1941 to 1943.
Dr. Hawkins. And with respect to this question I must take the
same position.
3448 COMMUNIST INIFILTRATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
Mr. Velde. Will you state your reason, again, for refusing to
answer?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes, sir. I have conferred with counsel. I know of
nothing connecting any persons in that group with espionage or any
other criminal activity. Beyond that, with respect to those persons
I am unwilling to testify. If you insist on more, I must respectfully
decline to answer; and, in doing so, I claim, on advice of my counsel,
all legal and constitutional rights that I may have, including the pro-
tection of the first amendment.
Mr. Velde, You were merely asked to give the names of the mem-
bers of the Communist Party cell. You were not asked whether
espionage was involved.
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir; but I understand that to be the reason for
your committee's investigations.
Mr. Velde. Do you take the position that your answer to that
question as to the members of the San Francisco cell might in some
manner incriminate you?
Dr. Hawkins. No.
Mr. Velde. Then you don't claim the privilege of refusing to
testify on the ground of self-incrimination?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Mr. Fanelli. I would like to have him read this again.
Mr. Velde. You may consult with your counsel.
(Witness confers with his counsel.)
Dr. Hawkins. I might read this part of my answer:
If you insist on more, I must respectfully decline to answer; and, in doing so,
claim, on advice of my counsel, all legal and constitutional rights that I may have,
including the protection of the first amendment.
Mr. Velde. One of those rights is the constitutional guaranty
against self-incrimination. Do you claim that as a reason for not
answering the question as to the membership of the San Francisco
cell?
Dr. Hawkins. I have clearly not made this the major ground of
my refusal. If I have rights under this provision of the Constitution,
if I might in some way perhaps incriminate myself by my answers to
these questions, then I would claim such rights.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me ask you this question to determine what
yoiu" views may be. You have given your reasons why you are re-
luctant to testify regarding the membership of certain individuals
in the Communist Party cell of which you were a member, and you
have suggested that that information be obtained from the individuals
themselves. In the event that this committee should bring before it
one of these individuals whose names you have refused to give, and
that individual is asked the question whether he has at any time been
a member of the Communist Party, and he refuses to answer, or he
denies membership, would you then come back here and give a truth-
ful answer to that question?
Mr. Fanelli. You are advised to answer that at that point you
would consult with counsel.
Dr. Hawkins. At that point I would consult with counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. In other words, you refuse to state whether or not
you would under those circumstances testify truthfully before this
committee?
Dr. Hawkins. I would in all cases testify truthfully.
COMCVnMIST IXriLTRATION! OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3449
Mr. Tavenner. I did not mean to infer otherwise; but would you
testify to the fact that the individual was a member of the Communist
Party or not?
Dr. Hawkins. In case he refused to testify?
Mr. Tavexner. Yes.
Dr. Hawkins. I haven't had to face this question. I would hesitate
to give you a definite answer with respect to it. I believe that past
membership in the Communist Party, membership in the period when
I belonged to the Communist Party, is not only no crime, but I believe
it falls within that sphere of which I spoke of certain fundamentals of
trust that underlie American life. I feel that in the present situation,
when we are faced with the necessity for unity in the defense of our
common values, the publication of such information about such
people injures them and injures their American community.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Velde. I would like to ask a few questions regarding your con-
versation with Dr. Joseph Weinberg. Did you know at the time you
conversed with him the character of the work being done at the Cali-
fornia Radiation Laboratory?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Mr. Velde. Did you subsequently find that out?
Dr. Hawkins. WTien I was at Los Alamos the end of the war, I read
the report on it. I did not know up to that time what had been going
on, except I had learned in the com-se of discussions at Los Alamos in
a general way that they had been working on problems of the separa-
tion of uranium isotopes.
Mr. Velde. Did you know that Dr. Weinberg was working on
something that was very secret?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Mr. Velde, Did you know after you got to Los Alamos that they
were working on something very secret at that plant?
Dr. Hawkins. At Los Alamos?
Mr. Velde. Yes.
Dr. Hawkins. I certainly did. I was impressed with that from the
first. Until I got there I knew nothing about the nature of thejjob
I was going to do.
Mr. Velde. Did you at any time become a member of the Federa-
tion of Architects, Engineers, Chemists, and Technicians?
Dr. Hawkins. I did not.
Mr. Velde. Were you acquainted with Marcel Scherer?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Mr. Velde. You never heard of him?
Dr. Hawkins. No.
Mr. Velde. Were you acquainted with Haakon Chevaher?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes.
Mr, Velde. What was the nature of your acquaintance with
Haakon Chevalier?
Dr. Hawkins. Social.
Mr. Velde. When did you meet him, to the best of your recollection?
Dr. Hawkins. I met him in Berkeley in 1941 or 1942, I believe.
Mr. Velde. Was it a party at which you met him?
Dr. Hawkins. Very probably. I don't remember the circum-
stances. I don't know him well.
Mr. Velde. How many times would you say you have been in his
company?
3450 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
Dr. Hawkins. Something perhaps m the order of eight or a dozen
times. I don't know.
Mr. Velde. Were other people present during any of those times?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; I think all of the occasions were social
occasions.
Mr. Velde. By "social occasions," just what do you mean?
Dr. Hawkins. A party. I may also have met him on the campus
and had a cup of coffee with him or something like that.
Mr. Velde. A party where several met together and discussed
events of the day?
Dr. Hawkins. Talked.
Mr. Velde. Did you ever discuss communism at any of those
parties?
Dr. Hawkins. I don't recall discussing communism. It is perfectly
possible.
Mr. Velde. Was Haakon Chevalier a member of the Communist
Party?
Dr. Hawkins. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Velde. You mentioned you went to Communist Party head-
quarters at San Francisco at least on one occasion. Do you recall
where those headquarters were?
Dr. Hawkins. At most on one occasion.
Mr. Velde. At most on one occasion?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes; at least and at most.
Mr. Velde. Was it on H Street or on Market Street?
Dr. Hawkins. I don't know. H Street sounds familiar to me.
Mr. Velde. Was it a tall buildmg?
Dr. Hawkins. As I recall, it was an old, dilapidated building of
some kind.
Mr. Velde. Did you ever go to the Communist Party headquarters
in Oakland?
Dr. Hawkins. I believe I didn't.
Mr. Velde. You are not sure that you did not?
Dr. Hawkins. I am pretty sure. I think I would have recalled
that in the same way I recall the visit to the San Francisco head-
quarters.
Mr. Velde. Did you become acquainted with Paul Robeson?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Mr. Velde. Did you ever attend a meeting where Paul Robeson
spoke?
Dr. Hawkins. I heard him speak and sing on several occasions;
mostly sing.
Mr. Velde. And you have never attended any party with Paul
Robeson?
Dr. Hawkins. I have a very vague memory of being at some very
big affair in San Francisco, presumably after a concert, and that is all
I recollect. I don't recollect where it was.
Mr. Velde. You have no idea where that affair was?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Mr. Velde. Was it in someone's private home?
Dr. Hawkins. I don't remember that. I know it was a very large
affair, I would say at least 100 or more persons. Whether it was in a
hotel or private home, I don't recall.
Mr. Velde. And you have never shaken hands with Paul Robeson
or met him in that way?
COMMIMIST INFILTRATION^ OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3451
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
]Mr. Velde. Do you know whether or not he was a member of the
Communist Party?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
]Mr. Velde. Your wife's name is Frances?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes.
Mr. Velde. Does she have a sister Julia Sloan?
Dr. Hawkins. She has a sister-in-law, Julia Sloan; my sister.
Mr. Velde. Your sister is Julia Sloan?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes.
]Mr. Velde. Has Julia Sloan ever been a member of the Communist
Party?
Dr. Hawkins. I believe not.
Mr. Velde. Can you state definitely that she was not a member of
the Communist Party?
Dr. Hawkins. I could state it pretty definitely. I don't know the
answer to that question, to be absolutely sure, about anyone.
Mr. Velde. You of course are acquainted with her husband,
William Sloan?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes.
Mr. Velde. Was William Sloan ever a member of the Communist
Party?
Dr. Hawkins. I believe not.
Mr. A^ELDE. Did William Sloan ever attend any Communist Party
meetings with you?
Dr. Hawkins. No.
Mr. Velde. Did Julia Sloan ever attend any Communist Party
meetings with you?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Mr. Velde. Are you acquainted with Paul Crouch?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Mr. Velde. Or Sylvia Crouch, his wife?
Dr. Hawkins. No.
Mr. Velde. Are you acquainted with Al Flanagan?
Dr. Hawkins. I recollect the name. I can't place the name at
the moment.
Mr. Velde. This Marxist group that you mentioned you spon-
sored at the University of Colorado, was that a local group at that
institution, or were there other similar groups throughout the country?
Dr. Hawkins. Purely local, as far as I know.
Mr. Velde. Is that organization still in operation?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir.
Air. Velde. When was it abandoned?
Dr. Hawkins. It died of attrition in the last school year.
Mr. Velde. How long a time were you the sponsor of that organiza-
tion?
Dr. Hawkins. I think for a year, probably.
Mr. Velde. About how many meetings during that year did you
attend of the Marxist group?
Dr. Hawkins. Thi'ee or four or five, maybe.
Mr. Velde. Were any of the members of the Marxist group mem-
bers of the Communist Party?
Dr. Hawkins. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Velde. Were any of them members of the American Youth
for Democracy, or anything of that kind?
3452 COMMUNIST nSTFTLTRATION! OF ATOMIC BOMB PR'OJEiCT
Dr. Hawkins. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Velde. That is all.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I have a few more questions that
I would like to ask.
Mr. Velde. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Harold Chapman
Brown?
Dr. Hawkins. Yes, sir. He was a professor of mine.
Mr. Tavenner. Where?
Dr. Hawkins. At Stanford University.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever sit in a Communist Party meeting
with him?
Dr. Hawkins. To that question I must give the same response I
gave before. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Tavenner. In the professional branch of the Communist
Partv in San Francisco, did you meet a person by the name of Walter
McElroy?
Dr. Hawkins. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Walter McElroy?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir,
Mr. Tavenner. Were you at any time acquainted with Walter
Herrick?
Dr. Hawkins. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Velda Johnson?
Dr. Hawkins. No, sir,
Mr. Tavenner, I asked joii earlier in your testimony about your
acquaintanceship with Robert R. Davis.
Dr. Hawkins. Yes, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Robert R. Davis a member of the Com-
munist Party to your knowledge?
Dr. Hawkins. Not to my knowledge at the time, sir,
Mr, Tavenner. What do you mean by that?
Dr. Hawkins. I mean that recently I have learned that he has
testified to the fact he was at one time a member of the Communist
Party, That was not known to me.
Mr, Velde. Are you acquainted with Alexander Saxton?
Dr. Hawkins. No.
Mr. Velde. Or his brother, Mark Saxton?
Dr. Hawkins. No.
Mr. Velde. That is all.
The subcommittee stands at recess until 7 o'clock tonight.
(Thereupon, at 4:45 p. m., a recess v/as taken until 7 p. m. of the
same day,)
evening session
(The hearing was resumed at 7 p. m., Hon. Burr P. Harrison pre-
siding, and Hon. Harold H. Velde also being present.)
Mr. Harrison. Raise your right hand, please. Do you solemnly
swear that in the testimony you are about to give you will speak the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. Hawkins. I do.
COMMUNIST INFILTRATIOXi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3453
TESTIMONY OF FRANCES POCKMAN HAWKINS, ACCOMPANIED
BY COUNSEL, JOSEPH A. FANELLI
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your full name, please?
Mrs. Hawkins. Frances Pockman Hawkins.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you represented by counsel?
Mrs. Hawkins. Yes; I am.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel identify himself for the record, please?
Mr. Fanelli. Yes, sir. Joseph A. Fanelh. I am a member of the
District of Columbia bar and maintain offices at 929 Fifteenth Street
NW., in Washington.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Hawkins, when and where were you born?
Mrs. Hawkins. San Francisco, May 6, 1913.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you the wife of Dr. David Hawkins?
Mrs. Hawkins. I am.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you please outline briefly your educational
background?
Mrs. Havn^kins. I have an A. B. in education from Stanford Uni-
versity. I transferred as an undergraduate, UCLA Junior College
and San Francisco State Teachers College, and after getting my A. B:
1 went back to San Francisco State Teachers College and took graduate
work in kindergarten or primary education, which Stanford did not
give.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your employment background,
please?
Mrs. Hawkins. I was a substitute teacher in San Francisco for
about a year and a half.
Mr. Tavenner. When was that?
Mrs. Hawkins. I received my teacher's certificate I believe in
January of 1936, Decembei 1935, or January 1936, and I started
teaching immediately as a substitute, and remained a substitute for a
year and a half. I think that is correct. Then I was a probationary
teacher for 3 years, making 4^ years of teaching in San Francisco.
Then I stopped teaching in San Francisco.
Mr. Velde. When did you stop teaching in San Francisco?
Mrs. Hawkins. May or June 1940.
I taught nursery school at Los Alamos in 1943 for about 5 months,
until they could get somebody to do the job. That is, I did it because
there wasn't anybody there, and I told them when they got somebody
I would quit, since I had a small child.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have any other employment before you
went to Los Alamos?
Airs. Hawkins. No. I was in the hospital the summer after I
stopped teaching in San Francisco, and I had a baby the following year.
I bound some books in the librar}^ at Los Alamos off and on when
something was falling apart for a period of about 9 months. That
would have been the fall of 1944 or spring of 1945. Other than that,
when we lived here in Washington in, I guess it was 1945 to 1946, I
was secretary for about 6 months to a nursery school here where our
child was going. And I think I substituted 3 days in Boulder, Colo.
Mr. Velde. Where did you live in Washington?
Mrs. Hawkins. On Rhode Island; 1721 Rhode Island, I believe.
3454 COMMTMIST IKIFILTRATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
Air. Tavenner. Is that all of your employment record?
Mrs. Hawkins. I think that is all. I am trying to remember if I
did any other substituting, but I don't think so.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now or have you ever been a member of
the Communist Party?
Mrs. Hawkins. I am not now. I was a member of the Communist
Party.
Mr. Harrison. When did you get out, Mrs. Hawkins?
Mrs. Hawkins. In the spring of 1943.
Mr. Harrison, Wliat do you think about it now?
Mrs. Hawkins. Pretty much what most Americans think about it^
I guess.
Mr. Harrison. You regard it as a menace to the safety of our
country at the moment, do you?
Mrs. Hawkins. Yes, I do.
Mr. Harrison. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee the circumstances
imder which you became a member of the party?
Mrs. Hawkins. I was teaching in the San Francisco School Depart-
ment. This was during the depression. I was teaching 5-year olds,
and it wasn't a very pleasant thing day by day to see what I saw. I
know it sounds sentimental.
Mr. Tavenner. What year was that?
Mrs. Hawkins. This was 193S. One did what one could, any
good teacher did, to alleviate the immediate things of hungry kids
and cold kids and so on, but don't ask me why I should turn toward
this rather than other teachers who were probably as good as I who
didn't, but I did feel that in addition to the things that both my
husband and I held in common, this was one force we felt was fighting
fascism. In my particular situation I went every day and faced 60
kids, 30 in the morning and 30 in the afternoon, and it was not
pleasant and it was not happy, and I wasn't happy, and I did this
specifically as something that I felt might get further toward changing-^
this situation where kids like this that I met every day were hungry
and cold.
Mr. Harrison. Were you married then?
Mrs. Hawkins. Yes; I was.
Mr. Harrison. You and your husband joined the party together?
Mrs. Hawkins. I don't remem.ber exactly.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlio recruited you into the Communist Party?
Mrs. Hawkins. I couldn't say whether I was reallj^ recruited or
not. At that time, if you remember, it was a time when there were
many benefits given for Spain, and I know it sounds silly, but I just
don't remember the circumstances under which I joined.
Mr. Tavenner. To whom did you report when you joined the
Communist Party?
Mrs. Hawkins. I remember going to a particular person who some-
how I must have known was a member of the Communist Party, and
saying that I would like to join.
'Mr. Tavenner. Who was that person?
Mrs. Hawkins. That is very hard for me to be able to say to you^
because this was someone who was just an ordinary teacher.
Mr. Tavenner. At what school?
Mrs. Hawkins. I don't even remember at what school she taught.
She was not a personal friend.
COM'JVnJNIST INIFILTRATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3455
Mr. Tavenner. Did she hold an oflScial position in the Communist,
Party?
Mrs. Hawkins. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Tavenner. But she was a member of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Hawkins. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Did she give you advice about joining the party?
Mrs. Hawkins. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Then what did you do?
Mrs. Hawkins. She told me when a group of people would meet
and invited me to come.
Mr. Tavenner. Did that group of people have a name as a branch
or cell of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Hawkins. Not specifically. I think it was known as a
teachers' group.
Mr. Tavenner. That was in San Francisco?
Mrs. Hawkins. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. In 1938?
Mrs. Hawkins. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were the officers of that organization?
Mrs. Hawkins. It was a very small group and there was no set-up
of officers in it as I remember.
Mr. Tavenner. How many were in the group?
Mrs. Hawkins. I would say it varied — six, seven, eight; it was a
small group.
Mr. Tavenner. What were their names?
Mrs. Hawkins. I wish you wouldn't ask me that question.
Mr. Harrison. Mrs. Hawkins, some of those people, like you, who
joined the Communist Party at that time, were soon disillusioned and
got out of it. Others perhaps didn't, and remained in an organization
which you have described here tonight as a menace to the safety of
our country. We are holding these closed hearings, from which news-
paper people have been barred, so that we may have the opportunity
to give further consideration to any names you may give in deter-
mining which of those names may be released for publication. That
is the reason we have held these hearings all day behind closed doors,
so that we may evaluate the testimony. You don't like to give the
names of these people; and, on the other hand, the safety of our country
is important.
Mrs. Hawkins. That is right.
Mr. Harrison. That is the reason we have closed hearings, so that
we may evaluate the testimony and see which of those names should
be released and which should not. Therefore, I want to ask that you
cooperate with us and rely on us not to vilify these people unneces-
sarily, which we are not going to do.
Mrs. Hawkins. I appreciate your talking to me that way. If this
group were a large group in which I had any doubt as to the basic
loyalty and integrity of these people, then I would certainly have to
answer with those names.
Mr. Harrison. Some of the people that come before us are the
nicest people you ever saw; they are some of the most pleasant people,
and we have had experiences that would astound you. I again assure
you we are not going to do anything to those people. We are not
going to injure their reputations. But I must ask that you cooperate
with us and not withhold information. Where people have been in
3456 COMMIMIST IN!F'ILTRATIONi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
the Communist Party and got out, we don't do anything to them
We didn't bring you all the way across the country for nothing.
There are matters in which we think you could aid us, and I do most
earnestly ask for your cooperation.
Mrs. Hawkins. I certainly do want to give my cooperation, Mr.
Harrison, and I can only say that any reluctance I have in this is one
which is very carefully weighed, and one which has certainly been
thought out along the lines you have outlined.
Mr. Harrison. You mean you are certain they are now out of
the party?
Mrs. Hawkins. I am absolutely certain that these people — well,
it is as if, if I doubted their loyalty I would doubt mine, and that is
impossible, because I know where mine lies.
Mr. Harrison. You will find among Communist Party members
people you least suspect who were once in the Communist Party and
who now make up the espionage organization of the party.
Mrs. Hawkins. I think that is true of a great many of them. I
think this particular group to which I belonged probably was unique
by the things we did and the beliefs we held, and this is something I
have learned since: that this was not true of many, many Communist
groups. I am sure we were scorned by the Communists at that time.
Open party members came and talked to us.
Mr. Velde. You wish to put your judgment as to the danger the
members of this particular group might be to our internal security
above the judgment of this committee and its staff?
Mrs. Hawkins. That is putting it in a very strong way, and I
wouldn't like to quite put it that way. I would like rather to put it
that there are some places where one has to rely upon one's private
evaluation in our country.
Mr. Velde. You are relying on your own evaluation?
Mrs. Hawkins. In this rather narrow field, yes.
Mr. Velde. Is that the only reason you have for refusing to answer
the question put to you?
Mrs. Hawkins. I am not quite clear what other reason I could have.
Mr. Velde. Do you refuse to tell us who were associated with you
in your branch of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Hawkins. If you finall}'^ make me do this, then I will have to
consult with counsel.
Mr. Harrison. You have a right to consult with counsel any time
you want. You may consult with him now.
Mr. Fanelli. I don't think we need such consultation in view of
her position. There is no use in our conferring. Will you ask the
question, and she will answer it.
Mr. Harrison. The question has been asked. She \yas asked who
were the members of the Communist Party in the cell with her.
Mrs. Hawkins. I have conferred with counsel. I know of nothing
connecting any persons in that group with espionage or any other crim-
inal activity. Beyond that, as to those persons, I am unwilling to
testify. IfVou insist on an answer, I must respectfully decline to^
answer; and, in doing so, claim, on advice of counsel, all legal and
constitutional rights that I may have, including the protection of
the first amendment.
Mr. Harrison. Do you desire to question the witness further,
Mr. Counsel?
COIVLMUKIST IXriLTRATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3457
Mr. Tavenner, Yes, sir. There are several questions I would like
to ask her.
Mr. Harrison. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did you remain a member of that
Communist Party group?
Mrs. Hawkins. I remained a member of that group until 1940.
Durmg the year 1939-40 — that is, the academic year in which I was
teaching — I was not well and was not very active in the group.
Mr. Tavenner. In 1940, were you transferred to another group of
the Communist Party?
Mrs. Hawkins. In 1940 we went to Palo Alto. That was the first
job my husband had had. We remained there a year.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you unite with the same Communist Party
group that he was a member of at this place?
Mrs. Hawkins. I was ill most of that year, and I have no recol-
lection of any formal affiliation. I think I could say that I probably
attended two or three meetings; but, again, I was not physically doing
very much of anything.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the name of the branch of the Com-
munist Party there?
Mrs. Hawkins. I don't remember.
Mr. Tavenner. When you left Palo Alto, were you transferred to
another group of the Communist Party?
Mrs. Hawkins. We left Palo Alto a couple months before our child
was born, and I had very little association with the Communist Party
in the following year when we were partly in San Francisco, and then
moved to Berkeley for the new baby.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you attend any Communist Party meetings
in Berkeley?
Mrs. Hawkins. Again I would say it is possible I attended two or
three. I have no clear recollection of affiliating with a particular
group.
Mr. Tavenner. Where did you attend the party meetings that you
attended in Berkeley? Where were they held?
Mrs. Hawkins. The only memory I have of where such a meeting
would have been held is there are two or three vague places in my
mind; nobody I knew.
Mr. Tavenner. You knew the persons who were present at those
meetmgs; didn't you?
Mrs. Hawkins. No. As a matter of fact, I didn't.
Mr. Tavenner. You did not know any of them?
Mrs. Hawkins. At this same time there were two outside things
that I remember doing.
Mr. Fanelli. You didn't answer the question. He asked if you
knew any of them?
Mrs. Hawkins. No; I didn't.
Mr. Harrison. You cannot recall any of them?
Mrs. Hawkins. I cannot recall just what this association was, be-
cause it was so very infrequent.
Mr. Harrison. Did your husband attend those meetings with you?
Airs. Hawkins. I doubt it very much.
Mr. Harrison. So, you do not know where the meetings were held
or the names of any persons who attended the meetings?
3458 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION' OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
Mrs. Hawkins. That is true, partly because I could not at this
time distinguish between what would have been a party meeting
and what would have been — and this is the activity I was going to
mention when I got off the subject — there were activities for Spain
going on at the same time.
Mr. Tavenner. This, you recall, was in the fall of 1941 when you
went back to Berkeley, or even later.
Mrs. Hawkins. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Were activities for Spain going on at that time?
Mrs. Hawkins. Yes; I remember very well December 7, 1941.
Mr. Tavenner. What identity did you have as a Communist
Party member that you carried with you?
Mrs. Hawkins. None.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you have a card?
Mrs. Hawkins. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you at any time use half or part of a dollar bill
that had a particular identification, in fact, the serial number of
T-867050?
Mrs. Hawkins. Absolutely not, to my memory.
Mr. Tavenner. You never did carry part of a dollar bill as
identification?
Mrs. Hawkins. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you become acquainted with Steve Nelson?
Mrs. Hawkins. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you become acquainted with Dr. Joseph
Weinberg?
Mrs. Hawkins. No.
Mr. Harrison. You don't know him?
Mrs. Hawkins. I don't know him.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you become acquainted with Bernadette
Doyle?
Airs. Hawkins. Not to my knowledge. This is a name that I
have a feeling that I have heard it. but certainly it doesn't
Mr. Harrison. She got 500,000 votes as a candidate for office in
your State.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you become acquainted with Louise Bransten?
Mrs. Hawkins. No.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Harrison. You were in the Communist Party at Berkeley
through the war; were you not?
Airs. Hawkins. No. What do you mean, "through the war"?
Mr. Harrison. During the time this country was in war, 1942 and
1943.
Mrs. Hawkins. We were in Berkeley, and I was still a member of
the Communist Party. I was not an active member, and I was not a
very satisfied member.
Mr. Harrison. And you can't recall the names of anyone associated
in the party with you during this period?
Mrs. Hawkins. No; I can't.
Mr. Velde. But you can recall the names of those associated with
you in the San Francisco group?
Mrs. Hawkins. Yes.
Mr. Velde. And that was before you were in Berkeley?
COMMUlSnST INFILTRATION' OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3459
Mrs. Hawkins. Yes, but I was actually associated with that group,
while I was so little associated with the group in Berkeley that no
group associates in my mind.
Mr. Velde. You attended meetings of your group regularly in
San Francisco?
Mrs. Hawkins. When I was well, yes.
Mr. Velde. Do you recall where they met?
Mrs. Hawkins. Yes; they met at one of the member's house.
Mr. Velde. One particular member all the time?
Mrs. Hawkins. No; not all the time.
Mr. Velde. You would go from member to member; is that right?
Mrs. Hawkins. Quite often; yes.
Mr. Velde. Have you ever been in the Communist Party head-
quarters in San Francisco?
Mrs. Hawkins. I think I was there once.
Mr. Velde. Whom did you see there?
Mrs. Hawkins. I couldn't say who I saw there, because I don't
remember.
Mr. Velde. Where were the headquarters; do you remember?
Mrs. Hawkins. I happen to remember the number because it was
the same as my own house number, 121 something.
Mr. Velde. H Street?
Mrs. Hawkins. I think so.
Mr. Velde, Did you ever go to the Communist Party headquarters
on Market Street in San Francisco?
Mrs. Hawkins. No.
Mr. Velde. Do you know what the occasion was for visiting the
headquarters on H Street in San Francisco?
Mrs. Hawkins. This is a surmise. Do you want it? I thinls: it was
•an open meeting at which, I can't say what was discussed, but it was
some kind of open meeting where they wanted a representative of our
group to attend.
Mr. Velde. Do you remember anyone who was there at all?
Mrs. Hawkins. No.
Mr. Velde. Are you acquainted with Kenneth May?
Mrs. Hawkins. Yes.
Mr. Velde. Was he a member of the Commimist Party?
Mrs. Hawkins. I don't know.
jMr. Velde. How long has it been since you have seen Kenneth
May?
Mrs. Hawkins. He visited us in Washington one afternoon when
he was here for some meetings.
Mr. Velde. That was when you were here living on Rhode Island
Avenue?
Mrs. Hawkins. That is right.
Mr. Velde. Have you seen him since you have been here this time?
Mrs. Hawkins. No.
Mr. Velde. Do you know if your husband has seen him?
Mrs. Hawkins. I would wonder how he had.
Mr. Velde. Have you talked with him since you have been here?
Mrs. Hawkins. With whom?
Mr. Velde. With Kenneth Alay.
Mrs. Hawkins. Certainly not. I have not seen him.
Mr. Velde. You don't know who he is at all?
3460 COMMUNIST IMF'ILTRATION' OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
Mrs. Hawkins. Yes, I do.
Mr. Velde. Are you acquainted with him?
Airs. Hawkins. Yes. I said I was acquamted with him.
Mr. Velde. I am sorry. But you said you didn't know whether he
was a member of the Communist Fa,rtj?
Mrs. Hawkins. I do not.
Mr. Velde. Did j^ou ever attend Communist Party meetings with
him?
Mrs. Hawkins. No.
Mr. Velde. I think that is all.
Air. Harrison. Were you in the same cell of the Communist Party
at Berkeley as Dr. Hawkins?
Mrs. Hawkins. As I said to Mr. Tavenner, I doubt very much that
he ever accompanied me to one of these few meetings that I went to.
I certainly never had any contact with any specific group that I
remember.
Mr. Harrison. Thank you.
Mr. Fanelli. I take it the witnesses are finally excused?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sir.
Mr. Harrison. Will you hold up your right hand, please? Do you
solemnly swear that in the evidence you give before this subcommittee
yoLi shall speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
Mr. Saxton. I do.
TESTIMONY OF ALEXANDER PLAISTED SAXTON
Mr. Tavenner. What is your full name?
Mr. Saxton. Alexander Plaisted Saxton.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born?
Mr. Saxton. July 16, 1919, Great Barrington, Alass.
Air. Tavenner. Will you briefly outline your educational back-
gromid?
Air. Saxton. Yes. I went to grade school at Friends' Seminary
School, New York City; high school at Phillips Exeter Academy.
Air. Tavenner. When did you enter that school?
Air. Saxton. I graduated m 1936. I must have entered 3 years
before that, 1933. Then I went to Harvard University, and trans-
ferred to the University of Chicago, from which I graduated in 1940.
Air. Tavenner. Will you outline briefly your employment record
since completing your work at college?
Mr. Saxton. Well, I think I am going to decline to answer that
question.
Air. Harrison. What was that question?
Air. Tavenner. To outline briefl}^ his work record and background
since leaving college.
Air. Saxton. Let me say first that my primary work has been as a
writer. I have written two books which have both been published.
Air. Tavenner. What are the names of those books?
Mr. Saxton. Grand Crossing and The Great Alidland.
Air. Harrison. Did 3"0U ever work for the Government of the
United States?
Mr. Saxton. In a sense I worked for the Government of the United
States. I went thi*ough Alaritime Service Training School.
OT£
COMMUNIST IKOFILTEATIOK: OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3461
Air. Harrison. Maritime Service Training School?
Mr. Saxton. That is right.
Mr. Harrison. Were 3'ou employed by the Government of the
United States in any other capacity at any time?
Mr. Saxton. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Harrison. And the question that j^ou decline to answer is
your empiojTnent record. Was that the question?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Mr. Harrison. Why do you decline to answer that?
Mr. Saxton. Under the fifth amendment to the Constitution. I
have a prepared statement of my reasons. Shall I read that to the
committee, or shall I merely submit it to the committee?
Mr. Harrison. May I see it?
Mr. Saxton. Certainly [handing statement to Mr. Harrison].
I think the legal phrase is on the ground that the answer might tend
to mcriminate the witness.
Mr. Harrison. No one has asked you what your political affilia-
tions are.
The statement will be filed with the record.
(The statement above referred to is as foUows:)
I have determined that there are certain questions which I must decline to answer
before this committee. The questions I refer to are questions such as, "What are
your poUtical opinions?" "What are your poUtical affihations?" "Are you or
have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?" And I refer also to any
questions which in my judgment may tend to create a pattern or to imply an
indirect answer to any of the foregoing questions.
These questions are, in my opinion, loaded questions. I believe that they are
asked solely for the purpose of preparing a legal technicality by means of which
persons who have committed no crime of any kind, may be — and have been —
sent to prison.
It is obvious from the record of this committee that legal snares of this sort
have been reserved for persons who vigorously exercised their rights under the
first amendment of the Constitution to hold and to express opinions; and to
express opinions which might run contrary to opinions held by members of this
committee.
I am a writer — not a lawyer. But I am convinced that questions such as these
constitute a kind of conspiracy on the part of this committee to destroy the first
amendment to the Constitution of the United States, by means of fear and
intimidation visited upon law-abiding citizens.
I base my declination to answer on the fifth amendment of the Constitution —
on the grounds that to answer such questions may tend to incriminate me.
Let me state for the record that I use the word "incriminate" solely in its legal
sense.
The fact is that an honest witness before this committee has no alternative
but to decline to answer such questions.
To answer in the negative might well place a witness in danger of indictment
for perjury on the basis of testimony by that chamber of professional stool-
pigeons and perjurors which certain departments of the Federal Government now
maintain at taxpayers' expense.
And on the other hand, to answer in the affirmative would place a witness in
danger of criminal prosecution under the McCarran Act or the Smith Act —
infamous pieces of legislation, destructive of civil rights, contrary to every principle
and precept of Americanism.
For the foregoing reasons I decline to answer such questions. I hope that my
conduct before this committee m.ay make some slight contribution toward the
defense of the hard-won, and today hard-pressed, civil liberties of the American
people.
Mr. Harrison. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Saxton, have you at any time applied for a
passport to travel in foreign countries?
76878 — 51 4
3462 COMMUiNIST 3 ^99^TJ5OT^o5^^^^ PROJECT
Mr. Saxton. Well, when I was about 5 years old I made a trip with
my mother to France and Italy. I guess I had a passport.
Mr. Harrison. Have you had one since?
Mr. Saxton. I had a seaman's passport.
Mr. Tavenner. When was that?
Mr, Saxton. That was durhig the war,
Mr. Tavenner. You were in the merchant marine?
Mr. Saxton, I was,
Mr, Tavenner, What were the names of the ships and the
destinations?
Mr. Saxton. I couldn't give that from memory, I would have to
look that up on my discharge records.
Mr, Tavenner. Will you give those you do remember?
Mr. Saxton. I remember making trips to England, France, South
America, and the Pacific.
Mr. Tavenner. What were the ships on which you traveled, as
nearly as you can recall?
Mr. Saxton. One I recall was the Abel Parker Upshur. The
others, I am afraid I don't remember. You went on ships by the
number, generally, and didn't pay attention to the names. If you
want the information I will be glad to send it to you when I get home,
I have my discharge papers.
Mr. Tavenner, Did you know an individual by the name of
Dennis Bijot?
Mr. Saxton, Well, I shall decline to answer that question on the
same grounds as the other, on the same grounds listed in the statement
that I submitted.
Mr. Tavenner, Do you know an individual by the name of Harry
Carlyle?
Mr. Saxton, I am going to declme to answer that question on the
same ground. Perhaps it would save the time of the committee to
state that questions as to individuals I may or may not have known,
I will answer on this same basis.
Mr. Harrison. Regardless of who the individual is?
Mr. Saxton. Regardless of who the individual is,
Mr, Harrison, That is all. Stand aside.
The hearing is adjourned until tomorrow morning at 10:30.
(Thereupon, at 7:55 p. m., a recess was taken until Thursday,
December 21, 1950, at 10:30 a. m.)
HEARINGS REGARDING COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF
RADIATION LABORATORY AND ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, BERKELEY,
CALIF.— VOLUME 3
THURSDAY, DECEMBER 21, 1950
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington, D. C.
PUBLIC HEARING
A subcommittee of one of the Committee on Un-American Activities
'met pursuant to call at 12:35 p. m. in room 226, Old House Office
Building, Hon. Harold H. Velde presiding.
Committee member present: Hon. Harold H. Velde.
Staff members present: Franlv S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; and Donald
T. Appell, investigator.
Mr. Velde. Proceed, Mr. Counsel. The witness has been sworn.^
TESTIMONY OF MARY BERNADETTE DOYLE, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, DAVID REIN
Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your full name, please?
Miss Doyle. My name is Mary Bernadette Doyle.
Mr. Tavenner. Alary Bernadette Doyle?
Miss Doyle. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. When and where were you born?
Miss Doyle. I was born in San Jose, Calif., August 5, 1905.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your present address?
Miss Doyle. My present address is 1161 Fifth Street, San Diego,
Calif.
Mr. Tavenner. How are you presently employed?
Miss Doyle. I am employed as an organizer.
Mr. Tavenner. As an organizer of what organization?
Miss Doyle. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Tavenner, on
the basis of the fact that my answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you outline for the committee briefly your
record of employment?
Miss Doyle. I will outline it, Mr. Tavenner, roughly; and then,
if the committee wants me to actually get exact dates, I will have to
do it at a later time.
I started to work as a youngster of about 11, and I worked in can-
neries. Then for a couple years I worked in cafeterias in Los An-
> The witness was sworn during executive session preceding the public hearing that follows,
3463
3464 COMMUNIST INFILTRATIOKi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
geles. Subsequent to that, I went to work for the Southern Call-
fornia Telephone Co., from 1933 until roughly 1937, or late 1936.
For a couple years after that, I worked as a domestic worker, and
then I went to work as an organizer, and I have been an organizer
for, rouglily, the last 11 years, except for the period when I was ill
for about 3 years.
Mr. Velde. Whore were you employed as an organizer?
Miss Doyle, ^"ou mean in what city, or for what organization?
Mr. Velde. Where, in what city — where were your offices?
Miss Doyle. May I consult my counsel on that?
Mr. Velde. Certainly.
(Witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Doyle. In Oakland, Calif., and in San Diego, Calif.
Mr. Velde. What vears did you serve as organizer at Oakland,
Calif.?
Miss Doyle. I would like to make this roughly again; but, roughly,
from 1940 to 1945.
Mr. Velde. And then did you go to San Diego directly from
Oakland?
Miss Doyle. No; I didn't. I went to Los Angeles. I was ill for
about 3 years.
Mr. Velde. You were not an organizer during that time?
Miss Doyle. No. There are medical records for that.
Mr. Velde. And subsequent to your illness you became an organizer
at San Diego; is that correct?
Miss Doyle. That is correct.
Mr. Velde. Proceed, Mr. Tavenner.
Mr. Tavenner. While you were an organizer at Oaldand, did you
become acquainted with Paul Crouch?
Miss Doyle. Mr. Velde, I decline to answer that question on the
basis of the fact it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Velde. How would it tend to incriminate you?
Miss Doyle. As I understand it, Mr. Velde, it is not necessary for
me to show you how I think a thing will incriminate me; and, since I
have read hearings of this committee and newspaper reports where
there have been leaks to the press and others, I would still refuse to
answer that question on the basis of the tendency it might have to
incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Where were you living prior to 1940? In 1940, I
understand you became an organizer at Oaldand.
Miss Doyle. I was living in the area prior to 1940. I left Los
Angeles in 1937, I believe.
Mr. Tavenner. In 1939 were you living at Oakland?
Miss Doyle. I would have to check my address. I was either in
Oakland or in Berkeley.
Mr. Tavenner. Where were you living when you became organizer
in 1940?
Miss Doyle. I was living in Berkeley.
Mr. Tavenner. I show you a photographic reproduction of an
article which appeared in the Daily People's World of Friday, October
8, 1948, entitled "Song of Bernadette," in which you are quoted as
saying, "I joined the Communist Party in 1939." Will you examine
that photographic copy? I point out to you the language that I
quoted and ask you to examine it and state whether or not you were
quoted correctly.
COMMUjSnST IXTILTRATIOTsi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3465
Miss Doyle. Mr. Velde, I decline to answer that question on the
basis of the fact that it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. I offer the photographic copy in evidence and ask
that it be marked "Bernadette Doyle Exhibit No. 1."
Mr. Velde. It will be admitted in evidence.
(The photogi'aphic copy of article above referred to, marked
''Bernadette Doyle Exhibit No. 1," is filed herewith.)
Mr. Tavenner. Were you ever a member of the Communist Party
at any time?
Miss Doyle. Mr. Velde, I would decline to answer that question
because it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Miss Doyle. Mr. Velde, I again will have to answer that in the
same way; that I decline to answer it on the basis of the fact that it
might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. The Daily People's World of January 18, 1941, at
page 5, refers to you as secretary of the Communist Party of Alameda
County, Calif. Were you secretary of the Communist Party of
Alameda County at that time?
Miss Doyle. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fact that my answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Paul Crouch, whose name I mentioned a few
moments ago, testified before this committee on May 6, 1949, and
stated :
I met Bernadette Doyle on numerous occasions and knew her very well. She
was frequently called in by the State Bureau for consultations, and was used
mostly as a liberal front for fund-raising campaigns.
Is that statement correct, or is it false, or do you have any explanation
to make of it?
Aliss Doyle. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fact my answer might tend to incriminate and degrade me.
Mr. Tavenner, Were you at any time acquainted with Steve
Nelson?
Miss Doyle. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fact that my answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you at any time visit the home of Dr. Joseph
W. Weinberg at 2427 Blake Street, Berkeley, Calif.?
Miss Doyle. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fact that my answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted mth Dr. Joseph W. Wein-
berg?
Miss Doyle. ShaU I make the full statement?
Mr. Velde. No; you can decline to answer on the same grounds.
Miss Doyle. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. Tavenner. The records of the committee indicate a Miss
Bernadette Doyle was elected a member of the California State Com-
mittee of the Communist Political Association in 1944. Were you the
Bernadette Doyle referred to?
Miss Doyle. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman, on
the basis of the fact that my answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. I hand you an article from the Daily People's
World of June 14, 1944, which lists the persons elected as officers of the
California State organization of the Communist Political Association
and the persons elected as members and alternates of the California
3466 COMMUOSriST mFILTRATIONi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
State Committee of the Communist Political Association. Will you
read the names of the persons listed and the positions to which they
were elected?
Miss Doyle. Mr. Chairman, I would like to consult counsel on
that, because I don't see why I should read it.
Mr. Rein. I would suggest
Mr. Velde. You are not allowed to make suggestions to the
committee. You may confer with the witness.
(Witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Doyle. Mr. Chairman, I just don't see what the purpose is in
my reading them when the other questions have been read by the-
examiner.
Mr. Velde. It isn't your prerogative to determine what our purpose
is. We determine what our purpose is. Do you decline to read the
names?
Miss Doyle. Mr. Chairman, I just don't know what my rights are
in regard to this, but I am afraid if I do such a thing the committee
may quote me as saying this, and I don't feel that is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. That wouldn't be correct, because the record
would show you are reading an article which I have asked you to read.
Miss Doyle. Does the committee insist that I read this list?
Mr. Velde. You may refuse to do so, certainly, if you so desire.
Miss Doyle. I decline to read the list.
Mr. Tavenner. I desire to offer the article in evidence and ask
that it be marked "Bernadette Doyle Exhibit No. 2."
Mr. Velde. It will be admitted.
(The newspaper article above referred to, marked "Bernadette
Doyle Exhibit No. 2," is filed herewith.)
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with an individual by the
name of Rose Segure, S-e-g-u-r-e?
Miss Doyle. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman,
on the basis of the fact that my answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you acquainted with a person by the name of
Kenneth May?
Miss Doyle. I decline to answer that question also, Mr. Chairman,.
on the basis of the fact that my answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with a person by the name
of Pearl E. Freeman in San Francisco?
Miss Doyle. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fact that my answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Were 3^ou acquainted with her husband, James
Freeman?
Miss Doyle. I declme to answer that question also on the same
basis, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you Imow where those individuals are living
now?
Miss Doyle. No; I don't.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether Mr. and IVIrs. Freeman
have been in Hawaii for a niunber of years, have lived there for a
number of years?
Miss Doyle. I decline to answer this question on the basis of the
fact that it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with members of the Merri-
man branch of the Communist Party at Berkeley, Calif?
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3467
Miss Doyle, I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fact that it may tend to mcriminate me.
I would like to make an additional statement, if I may, Mr. Velde,
just an additional comment, really.
Mr. Velde. As I understand it, you intend to be entirely uncoop*
erative with this committee. You refuse to give any of the details
concernuig your work with the Communist Party, your connection
with Steve Nelson, your connection with Dr. Joseph Weinberg, and
everything you did while in Oakland and the Bay area from 1941
to the present time; is that true?
Miss Doyle. I decline to answer the questions so far asked by this
committee, other than the ones I have answered, on the basis of the
fact that my answer might tend to incrimmate me; but I have never
committed an act of sabotage or any act of espionage, and I resent
bitterly the connection of my name with this particular type of
investigation.
Mr. Velde. Do you deny you attended a meeting in the home of
Dr. Joseph Weinberg in August 1943?
Miss Doyle. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fact that my answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Velde. How can you say you are not guilty of any crime of
sabotage or espionage when you won't answer questions concerning
your connections with those who have committed such crimes?
Miss Doyle. I decline to answer the question on the basis of the
fact that my answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Velde. Did you ever attend a meetmg of the National Com-
munist Party in New York during the year 1944?
Miss Doyle. I decline to answer this question on the basis of the
fact that my answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Velde. The committee records and my own personal laiowl-
edge show you obtained passage for a number of Communists, includ-
ing Steve Nelson and yourself, on the train to New York City to at-
tend the National Communist Party convention, and that a good
number of our loyal fighting men and a good many loyal American
citizens were not able to get accommodations to go to this convention
or anysvhere else. Do you deny that?
Miss Doyle. I declme to answer the question on the basis of the
fact that my answer may tend to mcrimmate me, but I do feel this is
an inquisitorial body acting m a star chamber manner, and it is not a
court.
Mr. Velde. Do you deny that you were ever in the home of Dr.
Joseph W. Weinberg?
Miss Doyle. I declme to answer this question on the basis of the
fact that my answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Velde. You have told this committee that you worked in Oak-
land as an organizer from 1940 to 1944 or thereabouts. Where were
your offices?
Miss Doyle. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fact that my answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Velde. As a matter of fact, you worked in the Oakland head-
quarters of the Communist Party during those vears, didn't you, Miss
Doyle?
Miss Doyle. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fact that my answer may tend to incriminate me.
3468 COMMUNIST INFILTRATIOKi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
Mr. Velde. Do you know Robert King?
Miss Doyle. Who?
Mr. Velde. Robert King.
Miss Doyle. Insofar as I know, I have never heard of him, Mr.
Chairman, but will you say the name again? Is it Kmg?
Mr. Velde. Yes.
Miss Doyle. K-i-n-g?
Mr. Velde. Yes.
Miss Doyle. So far as I know, I have never heard the name. It
might be better for me to say I don't remember. I have no recollec-
tion of it at all.
Mr. Velde. Did you ever attend the University of California in
Berkeley?
Miss Doyle. Yes, I did.
Mr. Velde. Wliat years?
Miss Doyle. Agam I would have to check the exact years.
Mr. Velde. Approximately?
Miss Doyle. I would say I attended off and on from about 1939
or 1938, 1 guess it was, until around 1941. But I would want to check
the dates. It is roughly in that period.
Mr. Velde. Were you a member of the Young Communist
League?
Miss Doyle. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fact that my answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Velde. Did you later become active in the American Youth
for Democracy movement?
Miss Doyle. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fact that my answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Velde. Did you belong to the Anti-Fascist Refugee Com-
mittee?
Miss Doyle. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fact that my answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Velde. Did you belong to the American-Russian Institute?
Miss Doyle. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. Velde. Did you know Louise Bransten?
Miss Doyle. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fact that my answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Velde. Do you know Dr. David Bohm?
Miss Doyle. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fact that my answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Velde. Is Dr. David Bohm a member of the Communist
Party to your knowledge?
Miss Doyle. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fact that my answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Velde. Is Dr. Joseph W. Weinberg a member of the Com-
munist Party to your knowledge?
Miss Doyle. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fact that my answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Velde. It is your intention, then, to be entirely uncooperative
a.nd refuse to answer any questions regarding any of your associations
while you were an organizer; is that right?
Miss Doyle. May I consult with counsel?
Mr. Velde. Yes.
C0M]\1TJ^'IST INFILTRATION! OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3469
(Witness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Doyle. I haven't refused to answer all questions before this
committee. I have refused to answer all questions that I thought
might tend to incriminate me, and on these I feel I cannot answer the
questions because my answer might tend to incriminate me.
Air. Velde. But the questions you have refused to answer have
been relative to your work as an organizer for the Communist Party?
Miss Doyle. Those questions asked me which I have refused to
answer, I have refused to answer on the basis of the fact that my
answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions.
Mr. Velde. The committee will stand at recess until 2:30.
(Thereupon, at 1:30 p. m., a recess was taken until 2:30 p. m. of
the same day.)
BEARINGS EEGARDING COMMUNIST INFILTEATION OF
RADIATION LABORATORY AND ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, BERKELEY,
CALIF.— VOLUME 3
THURSDAY, DECEMBER 21, 1950
United States House of Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington, D. C.
executive session
A subcommittee of one of the Committee on Un-American Activities
met, pursuant to adjournment, at 2:55 p. m., Hon. Harold H. Velde
presiding.
Committee member present: Hon. Harold H. Velde.
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; and
X)onald T. Appell, investigator.
Mr. Velde. In the testimony you are about to give this subcom-
mittee, do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Dr. May. I do.
TESTIMONY OF KENNETH OWNSWORTH MAY. ACCOMPANIED
BY COUNSEL, SIDNEY S. SACHS
Mr. Tavenner, I have a very brief biographical statement that
might help the committee in questioning me. I would be glad to read
it.
Mr. Tavenner. I will develop that. Will you state your full name,
please?
Dr. May. Kenneth Ownsworth May.
Mr, Tavenner. What is your present address?
Dr. May. 114 Winona Street, Northfield, Minn.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you represented here by counsel?
Dr. May. Yes, I am.
Mr. Tavenner. Will counsel please identify himself for the
record?
Mr. Sachs. My name is Sidney S. Sachs, of the firm of Sachs and
Jacobs, attorneys, here in Washington.
Mr. Tavenner. Dr. May, the committee would like to have a
brief outline of your educational background and your employment
record. If you have it in biographical form, you may read it.
Dr. May. This may not be altogether complete, but perhaps you
could question me if there are things here which are omitted.
3471
3472 'COMMIMIST INFILTRATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
I was born in Portland, Oreg., on July 8, 1915. My father's parents
were early pioneers, and my mother was an Englishwoman. My
father is a professor of political science and director of the Bureau of
Public Administration at the University of California.
The University of California granted me the A. B. degree with
highest honors in mathematics; the M. A. degree; and the Ph. D-.
degree.
Mr. Tavenner. What were the dates of those degrees?
Dr. May. The A. B. degi'ee was in 1936; the M. A. degree in 1937;:
and the Ph. D. degree was in 1946.
Mr. Velde. All from the University of California?
Dr. May. All from the University of California at Berkeley.
Mr. Velde. At Berkeley?
Dr. May. Yes. I was a teaching assistant at the University of
California in the academic years 1936-37 and 1939-41. I studied in
England and France in the years 1937-39.
As is well known to the public and to my employers, I joined the
Communist Party in 1936 and severed my connections with it in 1942.
As a result of my activities in the party I lost my teaching position
at the University of California in 1940.
After Pearl Harbor I made efforts to volunteer for the Army but
was not accepted until the end of 1942. When I entered the service
I withdrew from the party and have been independent of it ever since.
Mr. Velde. Just how did you withdraw from the party?
Dr. May. Well, no formal withdrawal was necessary, because when
I was drafted into the Army, everybody who went into the Army
was sort of disconnected from the party, or given a sort of leave from
the party, so I never made a formal resignation. When I went into
the Army I didn't have contact while I was in the Army, and when
I came back I simply didn't become active.
Mr. Velde. The Communist Party gave you leave while you were
in the Army?
Dr. May. Technically I suppose that was the case.
Mr. Velde. Was that a formal matter or understanding?
Dr. May. I don't know how it was done, but I think the Com-
munist Party at that time spoke of it in those terms, that when a
person went in the Army he was disconnected from the party. The
only sense in which leave was used was that when I got out of the
Army I would come back in the party, but I simply did not come
back in.
Mr. Velde. I see.
Dr. May. I served in the infantry as a rifleman, messenger, com-
munications sergeant, and second lieutenant. I participated with
the Eighty-seventh Tvlountain Infantry in the Aleutian and Italian
campaigns, attended the leadership and battle training school of
MTOUSA, and taught at the University Study Center in Florence
after VE-day. The Army was fully informed as to my past con-
nections wdth the Communist Party.
When I was separated from the Army in 1945, I returned to the
University of California to complete my work for the Ph. D. In
1946 I joined the faculty of Carleton College and am now an associate
professor of mathematics there.
I have been active in professional organizations and have written
a number of research papers and a text in elementary analysis. I
COMMTJNIST INFILTRATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3473
have testified fully about these matters before a Federal grand jury
here in Washington.
Mr. Tavenner. You are not under any Federal subpena at this
time?
Dr. May. No, other than this one, of course.
Mr. Tavenner. Dr. May, in an article appearing in the October 15,
1940, issue of New Masses, purportedly signed by you, you write
that you joined the Communist Party in 1936 as an undergraduate
of the University of California. Was your first association with the
Communist Party in the form of membership in the Young Communist
League, or in the Communist Party of the United States?
Dr. May. I was never associated with the Young Communist
League.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell the committee the circumstances
under which you became a member of the Communist Party, and
how you were recruited into it?
Dr. May. Really, I think that I just decided on my own. I had
had very little contact with the party. I didn't go to any meetings
or anything before, or nobody brought me around. I just decided
that I wanted to join, and I approached someone who I knew was a
party member and said that I wanted to join. This person told me
where to go, where there was going to be a meeting, and 1 went to thio
place.
Mr. Tavenner. Where was that?
Dr. May. I don't remember the street address or anything like that.
Mr. Tavenner. Describe the meeting to us, what type of meeting
it was and of what group of the Communist Party.
Dr. May. Of course this is a long time ago, and I don't remember
the details. I may even be describing the second meeting I went to.
But I do recall going to a meeting or meetings where I think there
were only two or three people, and I hadn't known any of them
before. They weren't colleagues of mine at all.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that in Berkeley?
Dr. May. Yes. I saw some of these people later on the campus,
but I didn't know them by name.
Mr. Tavenner. As a result of your becoming a member, you, of
course, were assigned to a group or cell in the Communist Party,
I take it?
Dr. May. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. What was that cell or group?
Dr. May. It was part of the campus branch. It was called the
campus branch of the Communist Party.
Mr. Velde. Consisting mostly of students of the University of
California?
Dr. May. It was my understanding it consisted entirely of students.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you become an officer of that group yourself?
Dr. May. I didn't hold any office of consequence. I may have
collected dues one night, or something of that kind.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you become affiliated with any other group
of the Communist Party other than this campus branch? In other
words, were you transferred to any other group or ceU?
Dr. May. I am trying to remember, now. You mean at any time?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, at any time.
3474 COMMUNIST IKIF'ILTRATIOKI OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
Dr. May. Later on, in 1941 or 1942, when I was an official of the
Communist Party, I belonged to a number of branches, but it was a
nominal membership. I was too busy to go to meetings, but I was
attached to perhaps half a dozen groups at one time or another.
I didn't actually participate m all of them.
Mr. Tavenner. What was your official position in the Communist
Party to which you just referred?
Dr. May. I was educational director of Alameda County in 1941,
and then I was what is called organizational secretary in 1942. I
don't know the exact date when I changed from one to the other.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Steve Nelson the party organizer for Alameda
County at that time?
Dr. May. I believe he was organizer during 1942, but just when in
1942 he became organizer, I don't recall.
Mr. Tavenner. And prior to his becoming organizer, was Paul
Crouch the Communist Party organizer for Alameda County?
Dr. May. That is correct.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you tell us how the party was organized in
Alameda County at the time you held the official positions that you
referred to? That is, what cells there were, the names of them, how
many cells embraced a branch, and so forth, all the organizational
information that you can give us regarding the party in Alameda
County.
Dr. May. I don't know whether I can give you anything too
precise on that, because I didn't keep any record or anything of that
kind, and I didn't make any effort to remember it, either. There
were a number of sections in the county, and these sections contained
branches, and in a general way the sections were geographical.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you name those sections?
Mr. Velde. Let me say this, Mr. Witness. There is no disposition
on the part of any of the members of this committee to condemn
you in any way if you make some mistakes in your memory, but we
would appreciate it if you would give us the general organizational
set-up of the party not only in Alameda County, but the whole bay
area.
Dr. May. I am afraid whatever I would say would be pretty vague.
I would have a hard time to give you the organizational set-up of the
college where I work right now, and I have only been gone a few
weeks.
Mr. Velde. Generally.
Dr. May. Well, there were sections which consisted of branches,
and the organization changed a great deal from time to time. Some-
times there were more sections than there were at other times.
Mr. Tavenner. Approximately how many sections were there?
Dr. May. Between four and seven; something like that.
Mr. Velde. In the first place, the Communist Party was organized
in districts throughout the country; was it not?
Dr. May. I don't doubt that, but that never concerned me at all.
I never had contact with organizational problems outside the county.
Mr. Velde. You do recall that you were part of the Nevada-Cali-
fornia thirteenth district; don't you?
Dr. May. I have seen literature with " thirteenth district" stamped
on it, but I have no direct knowledge that it was part of the thirteenth
district, myself.
COMMUNIST IXFILTRATI01S1 OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3475
Mr. Velde. Isn't it true that the county organization was next
under the district organization or the State organization?
Dr. ^Iay. My memory is that we dealt with the State committee.
I don't know about anything else.
!Mr. Tavenner. Let us begin mth the sections. You said there
were four or five, at least, or possibly as many as seven, in Alameda
County. Will you attempt to identify them by the names under
which they were known and the sections of the county which they
covered?
Dr. May. As I remember, they were numbered in some fashion.
The only reason I remember there were between four and seven, I
remember seeing statements on dues, sections 1, 2, 3, 4. You see, in
the literature they were not identified as to which was wliich.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the name of the section in which
Berkeley was located?
Dr. ]\Iay. There was a Berkeley branch. I do remember that.
Mr. Tavenner. And it was known as that?
Dr. ]\Iay. I am not sure it was always known as that, but there was
a branch in Berkeley.
Mr. Tavenner. You speak of the Berkeley branch. Is that one
branch of a section?
Dr. IMay. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Or do you mean to speak of it as a Berkeley sec-
tion?
Dr. May. I think you have got that confused. I think, if the truth
were known, sometimes it was the Berkeley branch and sometimes the
Berkeley section. They may have sometimes called the branches
sections. I am sure at least half a dozen times while I was there they
completely reorganized it from top to bottom.
(Witness confers with his counsel.)
Dr. May. I am not trying to stall you on this matter, you under-
stand.
Mr. Tavenner. I understand.
Dr. May. It is just that to really give an accurate answer I would
need to have notes that would detail all these things. It was ex-
tremely complicated. I don't Ivnow just what information you are
getting at.
Mr. Velde. You mentioned a moment ago that they changed the
type of organization. One of the changes, I believe, was that they
changed some geographical branches into occupational branches?
Dr. May. There were several such changes. A few months later
they would all be on the basis of where people lived, and there were
all kinds of changes. All these changes were made in a kind of way
so as to conceal as much as possible how they were being made. And
so, even though I was organizational secretary in 1942 — and I suppose
if anybody was responsible for this sort of thing I was— still the detail
of the organization was not something I kept track of all the time.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me confine myself to the phases of organiza-
tion with which I think you are familiar. You spoke of the Berkeley
branch.
Dr. May. There was an organization in Berkeley; yes.
Mr. Tavenner. How many sections were there in the Berkeley
branch of the Communist Party?
Dr. May. Different numbers at different times.
3476 'COMMUNIST INfFILTRATION' OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
Mr. Tavenner. Describe the evolution of the organization as well
as you can.
Dr. May. I think there was a time when everybody was in one
branch, but I never directly had any contact with that. Then there
were later times when there were neighborhood branches. I think
usually the branches were named after somebody, something like that.
Somewhere there was a Mother Bloor branch; probably a Browder
branch.
Mr. Tavenner. Was there a Merriman branch?
Dr. May. Yes, but this was not part of the Berkeley branch. This
was a University of California branch.
Mr. Velde. Wliat was that branch?
Dr. May. Merriman. I was in that branch. As I remember, the
Merriman branch was separate. The university branch was separate
from the Berkeley branch.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give the names of any cells of the Berkeley
branch?
Dr. May. I don't know any other named branches in Berkeley.
Mr. Tavenner. How many groups or cells were there, to your
knowledge, in the Berkeley branch?
Dr. May. Berkeley section? I don't know whether I can give you
any more definite answer than I did. There might have been as many
as three or four at different times. I doubt that there were ever any
more than that.
Mr. Velde. Wasn't there an Anita Whitney branch?
Dr. May. It sounds plausible, but I don't recollect what branch,
if any, was named after Anita Whitney. I am sure there must have
been an Anita Whitney branch, but I don't know if it was in Berkeley,
Mr. Tavenner. The Merriman branch came under what jurisdic-
tion? Was it a separate section?
Dr. May. I think it was a separate section when there were sec-
tions. There weren't always sections; but, if there were sections, it
was a section.
Mr. Tavenner. You have spoken of having been connected or
attached to from five to seven different branches or cells from time
to time.
Dr. May. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. What were those?
Dr. May. I will try to think of as many as I can. I was a member
'of the campus branch, in the first instance.
Mr. Tavenner. That is the same as the Merriman branch?
Dr. May. Except at the time I joined I don't think it was called
the Merriman branch. Then I was attached to one of the groups
in Berkeley later on, but what it was called I don't remember,
Mr. Tavenner. Can you give some further descriptive information
concerning it?
Dr. May. It seems to have been in the northwestern part of
Berkeley. None of the people in it were my friends, and I very
rarely met with them.
Mr. Tavenner. Proceed.
Dr. May. It is hard to remember whether I was really a member
of these branches or just met with them two or three times, but I
met with branches all over the county at different times.
Mr. Velde. You carried a Communist Party membership card;
didn't you, Mr. May?
COMIMITNIST INFILTRATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3477
Dr. May. I must have had one. I don't Iviiow what you mean
by "carried" one. I don't recollect carrying one.
Mr. Velde. At least you were issued a membership card on more
than one occasion?
Dr. May. Yes.
Mr. Velde. Can you describe the cards that were issued to you?
Dr. May. I think all the cards that were issued to me were more
or less the same type. They were a little booklet with my name, and
some statement about the party on the front page, some sort of state-
ment like membership in the Communist Party, so-and-so is a member,
then a number, and the rest of it had blanks for dues.
Mr. Velde. The branch was listed also on the card; was it not?
Dr. May. I am not sure.
Mr. Velde. Have you retained any of those cards?
Dr. May. No; I haven't. I wouldn't have any except the one
I had when I went in the Army, because they pick them up each
year. That one I left with papers and threw it away or burned it up.
Mr. Velde. Were any of those cards issued to you under a name
other than your own name?
Dr. May. I am not sure, but I think I used my own name. The
first year when I joined there might have been some other name put
on the card; but, if there was, I never used it at any other time. I
never used any other name in the party, although I think some people
in the party thought Kenneth May was a fake name, but it wasn't;
it was my own name.
Mr. Velde. Do you recall that it was the custom of the national
committee that cards be issued to members of the Communist Party
under different names than their actual names?
Dr. May. I don't ever remember there being any order like that.
I think it was entirely up to the individual. In other words, when a
person joined, someone or other might say to him: ''Maybe you ought
to put some other name dov^^l," or the person might think of it himself,
but I never heard the question of using false names discussed any-
where in the party, except I recall they were trying to urge people to
use their real names during a certain period, because they wanted
people to be open Communists and not liide their connections. I was
one of those who was an open Communist all the time; so I wasn't
greatly concerned by this problem.
Mr. Velde. Proceed.
Mr. Tavenner. You have stated that Paul Crouch was the district
organizer. That was at the same time that you were organizational
secretary; was it not?
Dr. AIay. Educational director. I don't think I became organiza-
tional secretary until he left and until Steve Nelson came in. In
other words, that change was made all in a parcel.
Mr. Tavenner. TeU the committee what your association was in
the party with Paul Crouch.
Dr. May. He came in as organizer sometime in 1941 , 1 don't remem-
ber the exact time, but I was aheady there as educational director.
Do 3^ou mean my personal association with him?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, in the work of the party.
Dr. May. In the first place, I didn't have much contact with. Paul
Crouch except in the work. In other words, I saw him at the office.
My contact with him usually consisted of my sitting with him in the
76878—51 5
3478 COMMUNIiST IIOT'ILTRATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
office and having a conference with him dmnng the day, and then I
might see him in the evening at a meeting where he was speaking or I
was speaking, or I might go to San Francisco with him to talk to people.
Mr. Tavennei^. There were occasions when both Paul Crouch and
you went to group meetings of the Communist Party and discussed
party affairs?
Dr. May. There must have been. At the moment I don't recall
such a specific occasion.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall such an occasion at the home of
Bernadette Doyle?
Dr. May. Wlien Paul Crouch was with me?
Mr. Tavenner. \Miether he was or not. If he was with you,
please so state.
Dr. May. I don't recall ever attending a meeting at Bernadette
Doyle's house, but I am not saying that I never did.
Mr, Tavenner. Do you recall such a meeting at the residence of
Alarcus Billings, 146 Maroga Street, Oakland, Calif.?
Dr. May. What is that address, again?
Mr. Tavenner. 146 Maroga Street.
Dr. May. I am not acquainted with that address.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall Marcus Billings?
Dr. May. I recall Marcus Billings as a person; yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall meeting at his home?
Dr. May. I can't recall meeting at his home on any matter. Again
I am not sure that I didn't. I surely could not have met there very
many times and not remember it, but I don't remember meeting at
his home.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall what branch of the party Marcus
Billings was a member of, if he was a member?
Dr. May. That is a double question.
Mr. Tavenner. First, was he a member of the Communist Partv?
Dr. May. I am not siue.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you ever seen him in a Communist Party
meeting?
Dr. May. I don't remember seeing him in a meeting. I might
have seen him in a meeting, but I don't recall seeing him in a meeting.
Mr. Tavenner. Coming back to my question about your associa-
tions with Paul Crouch, you say it was a practice to go out to various
group meetings of the Communist Party and address the meetings
on various subjects, and that you and Crouch had done that together?
Dr. May. Probably not very often, because it was wasteful to
send two people to the same place.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall any of the places where that
occurred?
Mr. Sachs. You mean either of them?
Mr. Tavenner. Where the two went together.
Dr. May. Do you mind if I take some time to think about this,
because I want to see if I recall any.
Mr. Tavenner. Surely.
Dr. May. The only occasion I can recall, and I can't recall the
date of it or the place of it, even, was some kind of an all-county
conference that was held where people were called from all over the
county and speeches were made.
Mr. Tavenner. That is the only one you can positively identify.
You know there were others?
COMMTJMST IXFILTRATIOIs^ OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3479
Dr. May. There may have been others. I don't thmk there were
very many, because he was only there G months at the most, and dur-
mg that time I did my job and he did his. We didn't have too much
contact. I remember this ail-county conference where he spoke,
because he made a very poor report, and it was one of the things that
caused him to be thrown out as organizer of the party.
Mr. Tavenner. Who took the action to throw him out?
Dr. May. I initiated the action.
Mr. Tavenner. With whom?
Dr. May. At a meeting of the county committee I just asked to
say a few words, and I said I thought he was mcompetent and should
be removed, that he was doing a poor job, and the county committee
took it under advisement. We discussed it further, we discussed it
with people in San Francisco, then it was voted that he should be
ousted.
Mr. Tavenner. How many were on the county committee?
Dr. May. I think somethmg like a dozen.
Mr. Tavenner. Will you give us the names of those who were on
the county committee at that time?
Dr. May. I can give you some of them.
Mr. Tavenner. Give us the names of those you can recall.
Dr. May. Of course there was Crouch himself. He was on the
county committee.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he a member of the county committee as
organizer?
Dr. May. That is right; and he was present at this meeting.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlio were the others?
Dr. May. I am not sure. I don't want to say someone was on
that county committee if I only have an impression.
Mr. Tavenner. They were the group of people to whom you were
responsible; in fact, they were the ones responsible for appointing
you to the important position you held ?
Dr. May. That is right.
Air. Tavenner. On reflection you certainly will recall the names
of a substantial number of those who served on your own committee.
Dr. May. You would think I ought to, wouldn't you?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes, sn; I certaudy do.
Dr. May. I don't like to say someone was on that committee unless
I saw them there. I never saw a list of the members of the county
committee.
Mr. Tavenner. But you met wdth the county committee from time
to time?
Dr. May. Yes, but I wasn't anxious — you see, both branches and
committees like that would meet, and people didn't make an effort
to identify themselves to each other. They probably anticipated
sometime they would be called before a committee like this and ques-
tioned, and they wanted to protect themselves.
Mr. Tavenner. But this was a county where you were well l•al.o^\^l,
and their takmg part m the same enterprise you were engaged in, you
couldn't help but laiow who they were; there couldn't be any secrecy
as to names.
Dr. May. There could be. I believe there was.
Mr. Velde. Wliat do you moan by that?
Dr. May. People would turn up and you called them by their
first name — something like that. I certainly never made an effort
3480 COMMUNIiST INFILTRATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
to remember anybody's name. I don't any time, and especially
when I was in the party I didn't make an effort to.
Mr. Velde. Do you want this committee to believe that you have
forgotten the names of the members of the county committee of the
Communist Party of Alameda County durmg the time you were a
member of that committee?
Dr. May. I am not saying that. I am trying to tell you why I
don't just give you a list.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe on reflection he will be able to give
them.
Dr. May. That committee changed from time to time. There
was a man I do remember, Bob Cole.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is the name?
Dr. May. C-o-l-e; Bob Cole.
Mr. Velde. Is he now livmg?
Dr. May. I don't know. As a matter of fact, when I think back
on this, the only county committee meeting that I can recall is this
particular meeting I spoke of when I made that statement. That is
the only county committee meeting I recall.
There was another man who may have been there, Charles Drasnin.
Mr. Tavenner. Charles Drasnin?
Dr. May. Yes; D-r-a-s-n-i-n.
Mr. Tavenner. Give us the names of additional persons who were
on the committee, whether they were at that particular meeting or not.
Dr. May. I don't think there are any other people I can remember
as being on that committee that I am sure enough they were members
that I could testify before this committee and a court that I knew
they were on the committee. I think it would amount to hearsay
or guessing.
Mr. Tavenner. We don't want you to guess.
Dr. May. I was sure you didn't. Maybe it seems strange to you
but, for instance, I am on some committees at Carleton College, and
if you should ask me who else are on the committees, I could not name
all of them. I am on the library committee. I loiow the librarian
is a member, but I don't know all the other members.
Mr. Tavenner. But the chances are you know the members of the
board of trustees of yoirr institution, under whom you serve and to
whom you owe your appointment?
Dr. May. I know two members of the board of trustees at Carleton,
or maybe three or possibly four, out of perhaps 30 or 40 trustees. I
have met every single trustee; maybe I have met them two or three
times; but I don't try to remember their names.
Mr. Tavenner. Ai-e those all that you can recall?
Dr. May. That is all I can recall now.
Mr. Tavenner. If during the course of your testimony the names
of any others occm* to you who were members of the county committee,
I would like you to volunteer that information.
How was Cole employed?
Dr. May. Cole preceded Crouch as organizer.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you laiow where he is now?
Dr. May. No, I don't.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat was the last information you had regarding
him, his whereabouts?
COMMUNIST DslFILTRATION' OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3481
Dr. May. He went into the Army, and I wrote to him in the Army,
but he didn't reply. I didn't hear from him while he was in the Ai*my.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you seen or heard of him since his return
from the Ai"my?
Dr. May. I think I heard from somebody that he had come back
out of the Army, but the implication was he was not politically active.
Mr. Tavenner. Is he living in the same general area, Alameda
County?
Dr. May. I don't know. You must remem.ber I haven't been near
'California since 1946, so I don't know what is happening there.
Mr. Tavenner. The other person whose name you mentioned, will
you give us more descriptive information regarding him? What
employment did he have, to your knowledge?
Dr. May. He was organizational secretary of the party at the time
when Crouch was organizer.
Mr. Tavenner. What is your last information regarding his
whereabouts?
Dr. May. Well, he left as organizational secretary when Crouch
left as organizer.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know where he went?
Dr. May. I think he stayed in the area, but I don't know exactly
what he did. I suppose he went to work.
Mr. Tavenner. How was Steve Nelson selected as the successor
■of Paul Crouch?
Dr. May. Well, when I proposed that Crouch be removed, the
•only objection anybody had was that they didn't know who would
replace him, and so I have forgotten who conferred, but somebody
conferred with the State committee in San Francisco to see if they
knew who might take Crouch's place.
Mr. Tavenner. AMio were on the State committee at that time?
Dr. May. I never met with the State committee, so I don't know
who were on the State committee from direct knowledge, but I know
who were some of the State officials.
Mr. Tavenner. Who were the State officials?
Dr. May. William Schneiderman was one; Louise Todd was
another; .^Vnita ^Tiitney was one. I assume they were on the State
committee.
Mr. Tavenner. Because of the official positions which they held?
Dr. May. Yes; but it doesn't necessarily follow that they were.
I don't know. Alay I explain something about this State committee,
because otherwise my evidence may be confusing on this point.
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Dr. May. Under the laws of California every political party has
by law what is called a State executive committee, and this com-
mittee consists by law of all candidates of the political party who
were on the ballot in the previous election, plus certain other people
elected in the primaries, because California has direct a primary law.
I was on this committee because I ran for office on the Communist
Party ticket, but that was not the State committee in the sense that
I have been speaking of it. This State committee was a fiction.
The other officials in San Francisco, there was a man named Rudy
Lambert and his brother, Walter Lambert. There was another man —
just give me a mmute and I will remember his name. He was organi-
zational secretary in the State when I was organizational secretary
7G878— 51
3482 COMMUNIiST IKFILTRATTONi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
in the county. I am sorry, but his name just doesn't come to my
mind. I know the man perfectly well. I haven't forgotten it, but
it doesn't come to my mind at the moment.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me ask you some questions as to the duties
of an organizational secretary. Among your duties was the duty of
collecting dues and transmitting the dues received from the various
branches of the Communist Party in Alameda County; is that correct?
Dr. May. The money was collected by the branches, and I would
only get the lump sums.
Mr. Tavenner. How were those sums paid to you, by check or in
cash?
Dr. May. In cash.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat disposition did you make of them?
Dr. May. When I became organizational secretary I set up a bank
account m the name of the Commimist Party, and with my name as
treasurer, and I signed checks "Kenneth May, trustee" — something
of the sort.
Mr. Tavenner. In what bank?
Dr. May. I don't remember what bank it was. I could walk to it
if I were in Oakland.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat street was it located on?
Dr. May. I don't even remember that. Broadway is the main
street in Oakland, and our offices were near there, and probably the
bank was on Broadway.
Mr. Tavenner. How would you pay out of this fund?
Dr. May. Write checks, and I kept a receipt book of funds
received — just a record of the money that came m, so that you could
balance the books.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have any of those records at this time?
Dr. May. No, I don't. I didn't keep any of them. Of course, it
would have been improper for me to do so. They were the party's
property, not mine.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien you remitted to the State committee, to
whom did you send the check?
Dr. May. I am trymg to remember how I did that. I do remember
for sure that I had a bank account. I can't conceive of my having a
bank account without writmg checks, but I don't actually remember
an mstance where I wrote a check. I suppose I would make out the
check to the State committee of the Communist Party. It is con-
ceivable I might have wi-itten the check to "Cash" and taken the
money to San Francisco, I am not sure. We took out a certain
percentage of the dues and kept them and sent a certain percentage to
the State office.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you make any remittance to the national
headquarters in New York?
Dr. May. We didn't. The State committee might have, but we
just sent dii'ect to the State.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall to whom you accounted in the
State organization for the funds which came into your hands?
Dr. May. I am going to be embarrassed if I can't remember this
man's name. There is no reason in the world why I should not
remember it.
Mr. Sachs. Could we pass that, Mr. Tavenner?
Air. Tavenner. Have you given us the names of all the members
of the State committee whose names you can recall?
COMJVItrasrrST IISTFILTRATIOIS:! OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3483
Dr. May. I have given j'ou the names of all the officials over there
that I knew — I am not sm-e they were members of the State committee,
but they are the officials — ^except the name I am going to try to remem-
ber if I can.
Air. Tavenner. Do you recall James George McGowan, an.
organizer for the Communist Party?
Dr. May. That name means nothing to me. I don't recall having
heard the name anv^vhere before.
Mr. Tavennek. He registered as a Communist in 1942 and
described himself as a Communist Party organizer in Alameda County.
Dr. May. I can't explain it; I am sorry, I might have known him
by some other name, or he might have been lying. The surprising
thing about this is, I ran for office in that election, and I must have
made use of all those registered Communists to sign petitions. So if
this guy was around, I must have met him.
Mr. Tavenner. In order for us to attempt to identify this individual
by maybe some other name, will j^ou give us the names of all organizers
of branches of the Communist Party of Alameda County that you can
recall?
Dr. May. I coukhi't give you any kind of an honest statement on
that. I would be makmg it up.
Mr. Tavenner. You would know the name of the organizer of the
Merriman branch at that time?
Dr. May. No, I don't. I haven't the slightest idea who was
organizer at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. You knew at the time but you have no recollection
now?
Dr. !May. That is right. During the period I was there, I would
wager there were 15 different organizers of that branch.
Air. TavexVner, Can you name any of the 15?
Dr. May. I think at one time I was organizer while I was still a
student. This was not in 1936 and 1937, but later on. OtherAvise,
I don't know who the organizers were.
Mr. Tavenner, That, however, was not the Merriman branch
that you were organizer of, was it?
Dr. AIay. I think so. It was the campus branch.
Air, Velde. As I imderstand, the Alerriman branch consisted of
others than students, didn't it?
Dr. AIay. As I understood, it consisted of graduate students. It
didn't include any faculty, I might explain the distinction was, in
general if a person was an undergraduate be was in YCL; if he was a
graduate, he was in the party. I didn't join until I was already through
as an undergraduate, so I didn't go in YCL. I went into the party.
Air. Tavenner. I was asking you about the method of the selection
of Steve Nelson as organizer when Paul Crouch was relieved, and you
stated it was probably the action of the State committee. Do you
know anything more about that, as to how Steve Nelson was selected
for this position?
Dr. AIay. How it was actuall}'^ decided?
Air. Tavenner. Yes.
Dr. AIay. I think not. I think probably the group of us might
have gone over or something, and probably I or someone talked to BiU
Schneiderman about it. On some occasion he said Steve Nelson was
wiUmg to do it, and we were glad to have him, because he was a person
3484 COMMUTSriiST IlS^ILTRATrOlSn OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJE'CT
very well laiowii as being a good person. That is all I recall about it.
In other words, we accepted him on the basis of the State's recom-
mendation.
Mr. Tavennbr. Who became the secretary?
Dr. May. Organizational secretary?
Mr. Tavenner. Yes.
Dr. May. I did.
Mr. Tavenner. And how long did you remain the organizational
secretary?
Dr. May. From the time he came in until about September 1942.
That was 6 or 7 months.
Mr. Tavenner. Who succeeded you as organizational secretary?
Dr. May. It was my understanding Bernadette Doyle did. Of
course by that time I was out of things, but that is what I understood
before I left.
Mr. Tavenner. You knew Bernadette Do3de before you left?
Dr. May. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Was she a member of the Communist Party?
Dr. May. I assume so.
Mr. Tavenner. Had you met in Communist Party meetings with
her?
, Dr. May. Oh, yes; certainly.
Mr. Tavenner. Tell me about the nature of your associations with
Steve Nelson and the business of the party while you were his organi-
zational secretary.
Dr. May. The work that I did with him was the sort of work that
an executive officer does for a commanding officer in the Army; or an
executive assistant does for a business executive. I took care of de-
tails, and if there was going to be a big public meeting I might be
chairman or one of the speakers, and I would see that the hall was
secured, and that publicity went out to the newspapers. Most of my
work was in contact with various agencies. Sometimes I would
arrange for a spot announcement.
This doesn't cover the whole story, but all kinds of things of this
sort.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Steve Nelson and you continue the same
practice that you engaged in with Paul Crouch of attending various
group meetings over the district?
Dr. May. We both attended meetings. We didn't very often
attend meetings together, because it was more economical to have
one person attend.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat effort was made during this period to
establish a Communist Party cell within radiation laboratory?
Dr. May. As far as I am aware, none. In saying this, I want to
say that I know Paul Crouch said I assisted him in trying to infiltrate
the radiation laboratory, but this is not so.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you familiar with the names of those who
were members of the Merriman branch of the Communist Party?
Dr. May. No. I wasn't meeting with the branch at that time.
Mr. Tavenner. Do ^'ou know the names of the officers of that
branch at that time?
Dr. May. No, I don't.
Mr. Tavenner. Or any of them?
Dr. May. I thinlv I had so little contact at that time that I really
couldn't give any evidence on that point.
COMJVrUNIST I]!sIFILTRATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3485
\It. Tavexner. There has been evidence introduced before the
committee by Robert R. Davis that he was an employee at radiation
laboratory, and he was recruited into the Communist Party by Rossi
Lomanitz. Were you acquainted with either Davis or Lomanitz?
Dr. May. As far as I can remember, I was not. These names mean
nothing to me except that I have read of them in the newspapers,
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether Davis was a member of
the Communist Party?
Dr. May. I don't think I ever knew this man.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether Rossi Lomanitz was a
member of the Communist Party?
Dr. May, I don't think I was ever acquainted with this man.
The first time ever remember hearing either of these names was when
I read of these men in the newspapers, of their having come before
the Un-American Activities Committee, I believe.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with David Bohm?
Dr. May. As far as I know I was not. This name was unfamiliar
to me until I read it in the papers,
Mr, Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Irving David Fox?
Dr. May. I am quite certain I never was. The name means
nothing to me except I have read about it in the papers. The reason
I am more sure about him than the others, I was not even at the
university when he was there, because the papers have reported him
to be a relative newcomer to the university, since my time.
Mr. Tavenner, To whom are you referring when you say he was
a newcomer? Were you referring to Fox?
Dr. May. That is right. All I know about Fox is what I have
read in the newspapers, and I have the impression from the news-
papers that he came to the University of California only a few years
ago, after I left there.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Max Bernard Fried-
man?
Dr. May. My answer to that is the same as to previous questions.
The name is not familiar to me. If I knew him I didn't know his
name, I remember reading about this man in the newspapers,
Mr. Tavenner. Wer« you acquainted with Joseph W. Weinberg?
Dr. May. Yes, I was acquainted with Mr. Weinberg,
Mr, Tavenner. Where did you become acquainted with him?
Dr. May. In Berkeley.
JSlr. Tavenner. Was he a graduate student at that time?
Dr. May. I am not sure just when I met Mr, Weinberg, so whether
he was still an undergraduate student or a graduate student, I don't
know.
Mr. Tavenner. Over how long a period of time did you know
him?
Dr. May, I knew him only casually, and when I met him, I am
not quite sure. It might have been any time between 1937 and
perhaps 1940 or something like that.
Mr, Tavenner, Did you know him in 1942?
Dr, AIay. I was acquainted with him.
Mr. Tavenner. And he was connected with the university at that
time, was he not, in 1942?
Dr, May. I am not sure about that, because I was out of the
university at that time. Perhaps I misunderstand your question as
3486 COMMUlSrilST INIFILTRATIONI of atomic bomb PR'OJE'CT
to whether I was acquainted with him in 1942. I don't know whether
I saw him at all in 1942, but once you have known someone I suppose
you would say you were acquainted with him.
Mr. Tavenner. How long did your acquaintanceship continue?
Dr. May. My acquaintanceship with Mr. Weinberg was very
casual, and the only reason I remember him at all is that he became
a generally known physicist at the university. In other words, he
developed a reputation as a physicist, and I recall having met him on
occasion. But he was not a friend of mine. If I saw him it was by
accident.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know if he was affiliated in any way with
the Merriman branch of the Communist Party, or any other branch of
the Communist Party?
Dr. May. No, I don't.
Mr. Tavenner. Have you any information of any character which
would be of importance to this committee as to either his membership
or nonmembership in the Communist Party?
Dr. May. Really, the only information I have about Mr. Weinberg,
that is, his possible connection with the party, is that he has been
accused of it and he has denied it.
Mr. Tavenner. Of course I am not referring to the hearings that
have been conducted by the committee, because the committee knows
about that.
Dr. May. From direct personal knowledge there isn't any evidence
I could give one way or another.
Mr. Tavenner. He could have been a member of the Merriman
branch of the Communist Party, or som.e other branch or cell, and
you would not laiow it?
Dr. May. That is correct. I don't want to do him an injustice,
but just not knowing he was doesn't mean he wasn't. I just don't
know.
Mr. Velde. Have you met Dr. Joseph Weinberg recently?
Dr. May. He teaches at the University of Minnesota, and I have
rmi into him by accident perhaps three or four times in the last 3 or
4 years.
Mr. Velde. About how many times?
Dr. May. Three or four times.
Mr. Velde. In the last
Dr. May. Three or four years. Although my field is not physics — -
I am a mathematician and he is a mathematical physicist — I attend
from time to time colloquia at the university on mathematics, and I
sometimes attend the physics colloquia, and he sometimes comes to
the mathematics colloqium. At one time I heard him speak at a
physics colloque, and he said "hello" and I said "hello"; just a word or
two of greeting is about the extent of it.
Mr. Velde. Have you ever made reference to investigations of this
committee in talking to Dr. Joseph Weinberg or Steve Nelson?
Dr. May. Have we ever discussed it?
Mr. Velde. Yes.
Dr. May. Not directly.
Mr. Velde, There isn't any reason why you shouldn't, you under-
stand.
Dr. May. I understand. However, there would be a good reason
why we should not discuss what my testimony was or what his
COMMTMIST INFILTRATIONl OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3487
testimony was. I wouldn't consider that proper. I don't know
whether it is legal or not. This was the only occasion, which was
purely accidental; I ran into him in the library a few months ago, and
this was the only time I made reference to the thing. I said, "I
appeared before the grand jury," and he said he was sorry I had been
embarrassed by having known him, something like that. We spoke
a minute or two about it, and that is all there was to it.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever visit in the home of Dr. Weinberg?
Dr. May. You mean at any time?
Mr. Tavenner. At any time.
Dr. AIay. I only recall one occasion when I did so.
Mr. Tavenner. Wlien was that?
Dr. May. This was in 1946, just after I came out of the Army. I
don't recall the exact time, but it was sometime in the spring of 1946,
I expect.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever visit in his home or meet with him
in any meeting prior to your going into the service?
Dr. May. I clon't recall any such occasion. Will you repeat that
question?
Mr. Tavenner. Did you meet with him in any group meeting prior
to going into the Army?
Dr. AIay. I don't recall any such occasion.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you at any time see him in the company of
Steve Nelson?
Dr. May. I don't recall ever having seen him in the company of
Steve Nelson.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever discuss Dr. Weinberg with Steve
Nelson?
Dr. May. I don't think so. I don't recall ever discussing Dr.
Weinberg with Steve Nelson.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you discuss him with Rudy Lambert?
Dr. AIay. The reason I hesitate there, I may be able to be a little
more definite there. I think I can say absolutely for certain I never
did discuss him with Rudy Lambert, because I had very few contacts
with Rudy Lambert, and never discussed any sort of personalities
with him.
Air. Tavenner. Is it true that Rudy Lambert was in charge of
organization among scientific employees at radiation laboratory?
Dr. AIay. As far as I know, there was no organization of scientific
emplo5^ees at radiation laboratory; and as far as I know Rudy Lam-
bert was never in charge of the organization of scientists at all.
Air. Tavenner. Was there an organization of Government employ-
ees generally in Alameda County?
Dr. AIay. I believe there was.
Air. Velde. Are you referring to the Federation of Architects,
Engineers, Chemists, and Technicians?
Air. Tavenner. No; I wasn't.
Dr. May. There was a branch that was called by some name that
suggested that it was a Government branch or something like that.
Mr. Tavenner. Tell us more about it.
Dr. AIay. I don't know that I can tell you more about it. I don't
know what the employment was of the people in it. I know they
concealed from us who they were and what they were doing. I don't
ever recall meeting with this branch.
3488 COMMUNUST INTTLTRATIONi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
Mr. Tavenner. You say their activities were concealed-
Dr. May. I mean, they didn't tell us their names, for instance,
and things of that kind. I don't know who was in this branch.
IVIr. Tavenner. Who was in charge of the organization of that
group?
Dr. May. Well, I think they had somebody in the group who
would turn in dues to someone and get literature, but this person
didn't even need to identif}^ himself by name.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that work done under the supervision of
Rudy Lambert?
Dr. May. Not as far as I know. As far as I know, he had nothing
to do with organizing the party in the East Bay. If he did, it was
over our heads and not through us. This is entirely news to me that
Rudy Lambert did anything of this kind. I never heard of it.
Mr. Tavenner. Were the dues paid through you by this group,
that is, the Government workers?
Dr. May. I think dues caine in from this branch to the county.
There were dues that came into the county from some such branch.
Mr. Tavenner. Whom did you collect them from?
Dr. May. It was done indirectly.
Mr. Tavenner. So you were not aware of the membership of that
group?
Dr. May. No. I had no definite knowledge of it.
Mr. Tavenner. You never met with that group?
Dr. May. I don't think so; I don't think so. I might have met
once with it. I might have gone to somebody's home one evening,
and somebody might have said, "This is the Government branch,'^
and I may have said a few words, but I never was introduced around.
They ran their own affairs.
Mr. Velde. How did you know there was such a branch organized?
Dr. May. I suppose by the fact dues came in, and they raised money
and obtained literature, things of that kind. It is hard to pin it down.
I suppose it would be possible for someone to set up a ghost branch
if they turned in the money and gave the appearance of doing some-
thing.
Mr. Tavenner. Where were the group headquarters located?
Dr. May. I don't think they had headquarters.
Mr. Tavenner. Was it centered around Berkeley?
Dr. May. I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. Where was it centered?
Dr. May. I don't know that it was centered any place in the county.
Mr. Tavenner. And you do not know the names of any members
of that branch?
Dr. May. I don't recall the names of members of it, no.
Mr. Tavenner. Are you familiar with any underground organiza-
tion of the Communist Party in Alameda County?
Dr. May. I am not sure I understand what you mean by an
underground organization.
Mr. Tavenner. I mean any group of the Communist Party engaged
in underground activities.
Dr. May. Can you explain what you mean by underground activi-
ties?
Mr. Tavenner. Any group that had for its object the surreptitious
acquisition of information.
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION' OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3489
Dr. May. Espionage? Is that what you mean?
JMr. Tavenner. You may call it that.
Dr. May. No; I didn't know of any such group.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Haakon Chevalier?
Dr. May. I knew Haakon Chevalier.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the nature of your acquaintance with
him?
Dr. May. Professor Chevalier lived two doors away from my
family at the time when I was perhaps 11 or 12 years old, from that
time until about 1935, and the family knew him because of the fact
he was a professor at the university and knew my father. That is
the way I became acquainted with him.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he affiliated with the Communist Party?
Dr. May. I am not sure whether he was affiliated with the party.
He was generally thought to be a Communist. I am not sure he was
officially affiliated.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you familiar with a Communist Party cell
established within the Shell Development Corp.?
Dr. May. I don't know whether that exactly describes any branch
that we had.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know whether a group of employees of that
corporation were members of a group or cell of the Communist Party?
Dr. May. Well, it was generally thought there were people in the
Shell Development Corp. who were party people, but I don't believe
there was a branch of that nature.
Mr. Tavenner. What branch or cell would those individuals have
been members of?
Dr. May. They might have been members of geographical branches,
neighborhood branches, or they might at some time have had some
group of their own; I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. As organizational secretary, woiddn't you know
the channel through which the dues were paid?
Dr. May. I am trying to remember.
Mr. Velde. Maybe 1 can refresh your recollection. Did you ivnow
George Charles Eltenton and Dolly Eltenton?
Dr. May. Yes.
Mr. Velde. Did they pay dues to you?
Dr. May. They didn't pay dues to me.
Mr. Velde. They were generally reputed to be active in the
Communist Party?
Dr. May. I think it was generally thought. It was my impression
this was not so, however; I never saw them in any party activities.
I saw them in activities of a left-wing nature, you might say. They
were interested in the American-Russian Institute and so on, but
I never had any contact with them as far as the party was concerned.
Mr. Velde. You know the background of George Charles Eltenton
and Dolly Eltenton, don't you?
Dr. May. My acquaintance with the Eltentons was based on the
fact that they had been in the Soviet Union, and I was interested in
Soviet planning, and I got acquainted with them because they had
been there and I was interested in what they knew about what was
going on in the Soviet Union, but I never approached them as a party
person at all, and they never dealt with me as though they were in
the party.
3490 COMMUNIST mriLTRATIONi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
Mr. Velde. Were you familiar with the attempts of Dr. Eltenton
to secure passport and visa to go back to England?
Dr. May. No.
Mr. Tavenner. Was Haakon Chevalier associated in a Communist
Party cell along with employees of the Shell Development Corp.,
or associated with them in any way in Communist Party activities?
Dr. May. I have seen Haakon Chevalier on many occasions over
a long period of time, but I don't ever recall seeing him in the same
room with, say, Mr. Eltenton or anyone else I identified as being
connected with the Shell Development Co., so I think the answer is
"No" as far as I know.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever meet with the group in the Shell
Development Corp., that particular group of the Communist Party?
Dr. May. I met several times with a sort of a study group, a group
of people studying Marxism, and I was the teacher, and I understood
these people were chemists. Whether they worked at Shell Develop-
ment Corp. or not, I am not sure.
Mr. Velde. WUl you name some of them?
Dr. May. I don't recall the names. They were extremely nervous.
Mr. Velde. Dr. George Eltenton was one?
Dr. May. Dr. George Eltenton was not. I am sure of that.
Mr. Velde. Nor Dolly Eltenton, his wife?
Dr. May. No. I never have met with George or Dolly Eltenton in
a small meeting of any kind.
Mr. Velde. Allen Flanagan was a member of this study group?
Dr. May. No.
Mr. Velde. Dr. Bernard Peters?
Dr. May. No.
Mr. Velde. You can recall nobody who was in that gi"Oup? Surely,
if you taught Marxism to them, you should remember.
Dr. May. At the moment I don't recall any of the names. The
chances are I just knew these people by their first names.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you meet in any Communist Party meeting
at which Haakon Chevalier was present?
Dr. May. No; not that I remember. I don't ever remember seeing
him at a party meeting.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever talk to him on any communistic
subject?
Dr. May. I must have; I suppose that I must have; but I don't
recall the occasions. I am sure that I talked to him about various
things.
Mr. Tavenner. He knew you at the time to be a member of the
Communist Party, because you were an open member?
Dr. May. At what time?
Mr. Tavenner. At the time you had your conversations with
Haakon Chevalier.
Dr. May. That is right. I was well known to be a Communist, but
nevertheless many, many people welcomed me in their homes, some of
them because they had political interests similar to mine, but some of
them just on personal grounds, and partly because they felt I had been
unjustly treated, perhaps; I don't loiow. I had social contacts with
all kinds of people.
COAIMLnsriST ESlFILTRATIOISii OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3491
Mr. Tavenner. On the basis of your discussions with Haakon
ChevaHer, did you consider that he accepted the principles of com-
munism?
Dr. May. I don't remember any contact with Mr. Chevalier after
the time that I left the university. It seems to me he left the uni-
versity too sometime along then. I don't remember the exact nature
of the conversations. It would be making something up if I were to
say what I thought of him at that time, really, but I think the most
I can say is that it was generally considered that he was a left-winger,
a Marxist. But this is just a matter of opinion and not anything
upon which I could give definite evidence.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Dr. Frank F. Oppen-
heimer?
Dr. May. I have met Mr. Oppenheimer.
Mr. Tavenner. Was he known to you to be a member of the
Communist Party?
Dr. May. No, he was not. I don't think I met him until after
the war, actually. At the time I was active in the party I don't
think he even lived in Berkeley, or lived in that area. I may have
met him at a cocktail party or something, but I don't remember ever
having met him before the war.
Mr. Velde. Are you acquainted with Clarence Hiskey?
Dr. May. My first recollection of ever having heard this name was
when I read in the newspapers that he was supposed to have been
at my house.
Mr. Velde. We will recess for about 5 minutes.
(Short recess.)
Mr. Velde. The subcommittee will stand at recess until tomorrow
morning at 10 o'clock.
(Thereupon, at 4:45 p. m. on Thursday, December 21, 1950, the
hearing was recessed until Friday, December 22, 1950, at 10 a. m.)
HEAEINGS EEGAEDING COMMUNIST INFILTEATIONFOF
EADIATION LABOEATOEY AND ATOMIC BOMB PEO.TECT
AT THE UNIYEESITY OF CALIFOENIA, BEEKELEY,
CALIF.— VOLUME 3
FRIDAY, DECEMBER 22, 1950
United States House op Representatives,
Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Washington, D. C.
executive session
A subcommittee of one of the Committee on Un-American Activities
met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10 a. m., Hon. Harold H. Velde
presiding.
Committee member present: Hon. Harold H. Velde.
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel, and
Donald T. Appell, investigator.
Mr. Velde. You may proceed.
TESTIMONY OF KENNETH OWNSWORTH MAY, ACCOMPANIED BY
COUNSEL, SIDNEY S. SACHS— Resumed
Mr. Tavenner. Dr. Ma}-, have you had an opportunity to refresh
your recollection as to the name of the State organizer of the Com-
munist Part}^?
Dr. May. The man whose name I was trying to remember was, I
believe, called the organizational secretary. The State organizer was
William Schneiderman.
Mr. Tavenner. I meant to say secretary.
Dr. May. I recollected the name at the end of the session yesterday,
and the name is Leo Barroway. I am not sure of the spelling,
B-a-r-r-o-w-a-y, something like that.
Mr. Tavenner. When was the last time that you saw him?
Dr. May. I don't think I have seen him since just before I went into
the Army. I might have seen him after I came back from the Army,
but I don't recollect seeing him at all. If I did, it was just by chance.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall at this time the names of any of the
members of the ^Vlerriman branch of the Communist Party?
Dr. May. I remember one person. I think he was in the Merriman
branch; I am pretty certain he was. I know that he was a leader of
the YCL there on the campus. His name was Justin Vanderlaan,
V-a-n-d-e-r-1-a-a-n — I am going phonetically on this — a Dutch name,
3493
3494 COMMUNIST INIFILTRATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
The reason I could remember that is we signed some letters together
that appeared in the papers. I signed for the party, and Jie signed for
the YCL.
Air. Tavenner. Wliat year was that?
Dr. May. In the fall of 1940.
Mr. Tavenner. Can you recall the names of any of the others?
Dr. May. I can't now, no. May I reconsider that? There was
another name I thought of of someone who was in the Merriman
branch. His name was Ed Lee.
Mr. Tavenner. During what period of time was he a member, to
your knowledge?
Dr. May. I think it was during 1939 or 1940 that I knew him there
as a member of the branch.
Mr. Tavenner. I am more interested in the names of members in
the period 1941 to 1943.
Dr. May. Well, of course, in the period 1941 to 1943 I was not in
that branch. You see, I left the university, and I was working mainly
down in Oakland, which is contiguous to Berkeley, but not the same
place, and I didn't have much contact with the campus branch during
that period.
Mr. Tavenner. You were asked questions yesterday regarding
Haakon Chevalier, Dr. Frank Oppenheimer, and George Charles
Eltenton.
Were you also acquainted with J. Robert Oppenheimer?
Dr. May. Yes; I was.
Mr. Tavenner. I want to read you an excerpt from the testimony
of Louis J. Russell, now senior investigator of this committee, relat-
ing to these individuals and also Louise Bransten. Did you know
Louise Bransten?
Dr. May. I met her. I think perhaps I saw her once or twice.
Mr. Tavenner. Let us stop for a moment and inquire more about
Louise Bransten. What was the character of your association with
her?
Dr. May. I wouldn't say really that I was associated with her. I
met her socially at some sort of cocktail party or tea party in San
Francisco. I don't recall at whose home it was. It was at some big
home, and it was just a general gathering of left-wing people, but not
particularly party people. It didn't have any definite party connota-
tion. I was simply introduced to her. I had heard of her and remem-
bered her, and I remember reading of her in the papers since. I don't
believe I ever had a conversation with her.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you ever sit in a Communist Party meeting
with her?
Dr. May. I am quite sure that I didn't. I don't recollect ever see-
ing her at such an affair.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have any information upon which you
could base a statement that she either was or was not a member of
the Communist Party?
Dr. May. I have no information of my own knowledge.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you have any information from records of the
Communist Party?
Dr. May. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Or from the collection of dues from Communist
Party members?
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3495
Dr. May. No, sir. The reason I qualified m}' answer was, the only-
sort of information I have is the sort of thing that she was generally
reputed to be left-wing in her views, but I don't know any more about
her than that.
Mr. Tavenner. I will read a part of Mr. Russell's testimony to
Mr. Sachs. Mr. Tavenner, would you mind giving us the page and
the date, and so forth?
Mr. Tavenner. This testimony is taken from volume 2 of the
Hearings and Reports of the Committee on Un-American Activities
for the year 1947, and appears on page 520:
Mr. Striplino. Do you have any information regarding further association
between Bransten, Louise Bransten, and Eltenton?
Mr. Russell. Yes; it is known that Louise Bransten at one time attempted to
secure employment for Doily Eltenton with the American-Russian Institute through
Gregory Kheifets. Also Louise Bransten requested Eltenton to send a telegram
of congratulations to a Russian scientific society in the Soviet L^nion, and during
the month of July 1940 it was sent. The person in charge of this scientific
gathering in Soviet Russia was an individual known as Peter Kapitza.
Mr. Striplixg. ]Mr. Russell, tell the committee whether or not Eltenton was
ever contacted by an official of the Soviet Government regarding espionage
activity.
Mr. Russell. Yes; during the year 1942, the latter part, Eltenton was con-
tacted by Peter Ivanov, whom I have identified as a vice consul of the Soviet
Government and a secretary in its consulate in San Francisco. Ivanov requested
Eltenton to secure information concerning some highly secret work which was
being carried on at the radiation laboratory' at the L^niversity of California.
Ivanov offered Eltenton money in return for his cooperation in securing informa-
tion regarding the secret work which was being conducted at the L^uiversity of
Cahfornia at Berkeley in its radiation laboratory.
Mr. Stripling. Do you know whether or not Eltenton, in furtherance of this
•ofiFer, contacted anyone else?
Mr. Russell. Yes; in order to cooperate with Ivanov he approached Haakon
Chevalier, who was a professor at the University of California
Mr. Stripling. Just a moment. Is he the same person who was a writer in the
film industry for several years?
Mr. Russell. I have no information concerning his occupation in the film
industry.
Mr. Stripling. All right, proceed.
Mr. Russell. And requested him to find out what was being done at the
radiation laboratory, particularly information regarding the highlv destructive
weapon which was being developed through research. Eltenton told Chevalier
that he had a line of communication with an official of the Soviet Government
who had advised him that since Russia and the L'nited States were allies Soviet
Russia should be entitled to any technical data which might be of assistance to
that nation.
At the time of this particular conversation Chevalier advised Eltenton that he
would contact a third person who was working in the radiation laboratory and
attempt to secure information regarding the type of work conducted there or any
information which he could regarding technical developments which might be of
assistance to the Soviet Government.
Mr. Stripling. Mr. Russell, can you tell the committee whether or not Mr.
Chevalier did contact a scientist employed in the radiation laboratory?
Mr. Russell. Yes; Chevalier approached this third person.
Mr. Stripling. Was that third person J. Robert Oppenheimer?
Mr. Russell. That is right; Chevalier approached this third person, J. Robert
Oppenheimer, and told him that George Charles Eltenton was interested in ob-
taining information regarding technical developments under consideration by the
United States and also that Eltenton was interested in obtaining information
regarding the work being performed at the Radiation Laboratory at the Uni-
versity of California. This third person
Mr. Stripling. Just a moment. Did Chevalier tell J. Robert Oppenheimer
that he had the means of communication whereby he could transmit such informa-
tion to the Soviet Union?
3496 COMMUNIST IlSTFILTRATrONi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
Mr. Russell. Yes; he did. He told J. Robert Oppenheimer that Eltenton
had a source through which he could relay the information to the Soviet Govern-
ment.
Mr. Stripling. What did Mr. Oppenheimer reply to this approach on the part
of Mr. Chevalier?
Mr. Russell. He said that he considered such attempts as this to secure
information a treasonable act and that he certainly would not have anything to
do with such a thing.
Is it not true that Steve Nelson mentioned the subject of this testi-
mony regarding the aborted effort to obtam information from Dr. J.
Robert Oppenheimer to you?
Dr. May. You mean at that time?
Mr. Tavenner. At that or any other time.
Dr. May. Steve Nelson has mentioned this, not as a fact, but he
has mentioned this allegation to me on one occasion.
Mr. Tavenner. Tell us about that.
Dr. May. Well, sometime — I am not sure of the exact time but it
was probably in 1947 of 1948 — Steve Nelson phoned me from Minne-
apolis, and I hadn't heard from him, really, since the war, and so I
went up to see him, and we just sat and talked for a little while, and
he said something about — this was after some newspaper reports had
come out along the lines you have just read, and he made some
reference to this.
I assumed, when I read this in the newspaper, that it was just
someone romancing. I didn't take it very seriously, and he didn't
talk about it as though it were true, but he made some reference to it,
that the origin of the story must be that someone had told some kind
of tale to the FBI or somebody ; that somebody must have told some
sort of tale ; and he intimated that the person who probably had done
that was Eltenton. He said probably Eltenton had told some tale
like this, and apparently the reason he gave for saying this was that
Eltenton had left the country, was no longer in the country.
It seemed sort of strange to me. I didn't get too much sense out of
his making this comment, and I didn't comment on it and he didn't
say anythmg further, and that was all. It was just a brief interchange.
Mr. Tavenner. He called j'ou from what place?
Dr. May. Minneapolis. I live quite near Minneapolis.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he make a special trip there to see you about
this matter, as far as you know?
Dr. May. I don't know. I don't think so. He just said he was
in town on some business. I didn't discuss party matters with him
at all. I didn't want to get involved in party matters.
Mr. Tavenner. When he called you, I take it it was on the tele-
phone?
Dr. May. That is right.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he tell you what the purpose of his calling
you was?
Dr. May. No. He just said "Hello" and who he was. I hadn't
seen him for a long time. I had known him as a person and liked
him as a person, as well as worked under him in the party, and it Avas
natural I wanted to see him and ask how his family was and so forth.
Mr. Tavenner. I think you had lived with hun at one time?
Dr. May. That is right, and I saw no reason why I shouldn't see
him, although I assumed he was still an official of the party, but I
COMMUNIST INFrLTRATION' OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3497
tried, when I saw him, not to get involved in any party discussion.
I asked about his wife and children and how he was getting along.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you gain the impression that the purpose of
his calling you was to discuss this matter with you?
Mr. Sachs. Which matter was that?
Air. Tavenner. The matter of Eltenton and the approach to J.
Robert Oppenheimer.
Dr. May. This possibility has not occurred to me until now, that
that is why he wanted to see me. I just assumed he wanted to see
me because he liked me and so on; we were friends.
Mr. Tavenner. Is that the only time that he ever called you?
Dr. May. That is right. I mean, the only time since the war.
Of course, when I was working with him he called me.
Mr. Velde. Do you recall anj^thing other than what you have said
about this conversation?
Dr. May. I just want to explain why I cut off the conversation.
I didn't want to get involved in any such conversation. The fact he
mentioned the matter at all made me a little uncomfortable. It did
make me feel uncomfortable, but I didn't feel he had a definite purpose
in seeing me.
Mr. Tavenner. Try to recall just what Nelson said to you about
it.
Dr. jMay. I don't think I can recall any more than I have just
told you.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Nelson then indicate to you that any addi-
tional effort had been made to obtain information from anyone in
Radiation Laboratory?
Dr. May. He didn't even indicate that any effort at all had been
made. We didn't discuss it on the basis that anything had really
happened at all. He just made this comment, and I dropped the
matter. I didn't want to discuss it any more.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he mention the name of Dr. Weinberg to you?
Dr. May. No; he didn't. Dr. Weinberg's name did not come up
at all while we were talking.
Mr. Tavenner. Did he mention the name of Dr. Weinberg to
you at any time while you were m California working in the party?
Dr. May, I don't recall discu.ssing Dr. Weinberg with him at any
time.
Mr. Tavenner. Did Steve Nelson mention to you at any time
while you were actively engaged in the work of the party that any
effort had been made or would be made to obtain information from
Dr. J. Robert Oppenheimer?
Dr. May. I don't recall his ever discussing anything like that at
all; no. To answer this more broadly, I don't recall ever discussing
with Steve Nelson the obtaining of information from anybody; that
is, illegal or unauthorized information.
Mr. Velde. Have you ever attended a meeting social or otherwise,
with Haakon Chevalier and Dr. J. Robert Oppenheimer?
Dr. May. Yes. I am sure I must have been on many occasions
at social events with them.
Mr. Velde. And was George Eltenton present?
Dr. May. I don't recall ever seeing the tbree of them together.
It is undoubtedly true that they were present at parties together, but
I don't ever recall seeing them together. I do recall seeing Dr.
76878—51 7
3498 COMMUNUST INIFILTRATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
Oppenheimer and Dr. Chevalier. together. They were both professors
at the university, and Eltenton was not.
Mr. Velde. Do you recaU any social meetings in Chevalier's home?
Dr. May. I think on a number of occasions I was at his home.
Mr. Velde. At which Dr. J. Robert Oppenheimer was present, too?
Dr. May. Yes.
Mr. Tavenner. You stated you lived with Steve Nelson at one
time. Will you state when that was and where you lived?
Dr. May. I lived with him from some time in the first half of 1942
until the late summer of 1942, a period of a few months.
Mr. Tavenner. At what address?
Dr. May. It was on Grove Street near a cross street that I have
forgotten what it was called then, but after the war it was called
MacArthur Boulevard. I remember noticing they had named the
avenue MacArthur. But I don't remember the number of the house.
Mr. Velde. Were you ever in his home after he moved from that
Grove Street address to Berkeley?
Dr. May. I didn't know that he moved to Berkeley. I was in a
home somewhere else that he had after that.
Mr. Velde. After that?
Dr. May. That is right.
Mr. Velde. That was during the war; wasn't it?
Dr. May. I am not sure just w^hen it was. It may have been at
some time when I was home on leave from the Army, possibly 1943 or
1944. I think I was there only once; maybe twice.
Mr. Velde. Do you recall anything about your conversation with
him at that time, and what the occasion was?
Dr. May. I think the occasion was simply that I was home on leave
and I just dropped in on him to be friendly, and played with his little
daughter, and talked to his wife, and steered clear of anything too
political, because I felt that being in the Army and not connected with
the party, I should be correct about such things, and I didn't want to
get involved in anything political.
I think I should explain to the committee that my relation with
Steve Nelson, although I have no contact w4th him now, he was for a
time the closest thing I had to a family, and I felt a certain personal
attachment to him. He had always been very nice to me, and when I
came to his house to live I was in poor health and underweight, and his
wife fed me well and I was in good shape to go in the Army; and if I
were to see him now I feel I should greet him as a former friend, at
least. I don't feel I am his friend now.
Mr. Tavenner. I wish you would tell us what he told you, as nearly
as you can remember, al30ut the reported effort to approach Dr.
Robert Oppenheimer.
Dr. May. The only reason I remember it is that it seemed to me a
little strange that he said anything to me about it at all.
I cannot remember exactly what was said but the conversation may
have gone something like this. He asked if I had noticed certain
reports in the paper, and I said I had read about it, and shrugged
my shoulders. He said, "Well, someone must have given this story
to whoever it was given to, the FBI or whoever it was given to."
Then he said, "As far as I can see, it must have been Eltenton, since
he has left the country."
COMMUXIST INFILTRATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3499
I didn't know Eltenton had left the country, and I didn't see any
particular reason why that would indicate he had told somebody, but
I didn't want to get involved, so I made some remark such as, "So
what?" or "What could he say?" and let the subject drop.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you gain the impression that Steve Nelson was
trying to ascertain the extent of your knowledge concerning that
incident?
Dr. ]\Iay. I didn't think of it at the moment, and didn't see it until
now. I can see now maybe he was fishing.
Air. Tavenner. What else did you discuss?
Dr. May. We didn't discuss anything else in particular. We talked
quite a while, about the war situation, his family, my family, and so on.
I just assume we talked about this. I don't actually recall just what
we said.
Mr. Tavenner. The entire conversation was about normal matters
people would normally converse about when meeting, except this one
thing?
Dr. May. That people woidd normally converse about who were
associated in the way we were. He asked how I was getting along
because of my past difficulties because of the party, and so on. I
didn't spend much time figuring what this one thing meant. I wasn't
particularly interested.
(Witness confers with his counsel.)
Dr. AIay. I had gone on the assumption that there wasn't the
slightest truth in anything I had read, and although this question
didn't indicate there was truth to it, it didn't seem to completely jibe
with the fact there was no truth to it, and it startled me, and I an-
swered as though there were no truth to it. I think he dropped the
subject as much as I did. So if he was fishing, he must have gotten
the impression by my answer that I didn't know anything about it.
Mr. Tavenner. Going back to the time when you were closely asso-
ciated with Nelson in Communist Party work, did not you and Nelson
discuss prospective members of the Communist Party between you?
Did you not, in the course of your discussions, consider whether this
person or that was sjrmpathetically inclined to the work in which you
were engaged?
Dr. May. Yes, undoubtedly we must have done that to some extent,
though most of the recruiting of individuals into the party was by
members meeting their friends. That wasn't done by officials. We
didn't go into that.
Mr. Tavenner. If the individuals were persons of prominence, it
would have been most natural for you and Steve Nelson to discuss the
possibility of their being s^mipathetically inclined to your work?
Dr. May. We undoubtedly discussed the political views of all kinds
of people.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you recall discussing Dr. J. Robert Oppen-
heimer with Steve Nelson?
Dr. May. I am sure we must have, but I don't specifically recall any
occasion when we did. I am sure we must have discussed his views
and so on.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you not think 3^ou discussed with him, or Steve
Nelson with you, the importance of the association of Dr. J. Robert
Oppenheimer with the Communist Party, the Communist movement?
3500 COMMUNIST INDFILTRATIONi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
Dr. May. I never really discussed the importance of it. I don't
recall actually the conversation, but
Mr. Velde. You are acquainted with Mrs. J. Robert Oppenheimer;
are you not?
Dr. May. I was acquainted with her. I haven't had any contact
with her for a long time, but I met her.
Mr. Velde. Were you acquainted with her former husband, her
deceased husband, who died in the Spanish civil war?
Dr. May. I have heard of him, but I wasn't acquainted with him.
Mr. Velde. Did you know her as a member of the Communist
Party?
Dr. May. No.
Mr. Velde. She was a close friend of Steve Nelson's also; wasn't
she?
Dr. May. I understood that she was a close friend. Steve Nelson
and I never sat down and talked about it, but I gathered from things
he said that he knew her because he loiew her husband well; and, also,
I gathered that her husband was killed in Spam at a time when Steve
Nelson was present; that there was some close personal bond between
Steve Nelson and her husband. I am not sure of her husband's name.
Steve Nelson talked of close friends in Spain and mentioned that Airs.
Oppenheimer's husband was a close friend.
Mr. Velde. Did Mrs. J. Robert Oppenheimer make a trip back to
Spain during 1940 or 1941?
Dr. May. That I don't know. I don't think I had met her at
that time. I met her through Professor Oppenheimer.
Mr. Velde. Did you ever discuss with Steve Nelson his acquaint-
anceship with Togliatti?
Dr. May. No. I didn't know that he knew Togliatti.
Mr. Velde. You know who Togliatti is?
Dr. May. I know who Togliatti is.
You asked me a question to which I did not complete the answer,
whether I had ever discussed the importance of Prof. J. Robert
Oppenheimer with Steve Nelson. I don't recall any conversation,
but let me say this: My conception at the time of the importance of
J. Robert Oppenheimer was simply that he was a very brilliant man,
a very brilliant man, and I have gone to see him, and have discussed
things with him at social gatherings. I have gone to his home specif-
ically to talk to hun. My purpose was more to learn than anything
else, because he was very brilliant, and what he said was always very
interesting. And it was for such conversations that on a couple
occasions I went to his home with Steve Nelson. We discussed
political problems and such things, and even when we disagreed with
him, it was always stimulating to talk to Dr. Oppenheimer.
Mr. Tavenner. Did you gain from some other source a loiowledge
or belief that he was a member of the Communist Party?
Dr. May. No, I didn't. He spoke to us as an independent person.
Mr. Tavenner. In connection with your work with Steve Nelson,
did you not learn that he was interested in obtaining information
Dr. May. That Steve Nelson was?
Mr. Tavenner. That Steve Nelson was interested in obtaining
information that was possessed by scientists in that area regarding
secret Government projects?
COMMUNIST IXFILTRATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3501
Dr. May. I don't recall any such conversations with Steve Nelson,
and if such a conversation had taken place, I would have been incensed
about it.
Mr. Tavenner. The place at which you lived with Steve Nelson,
was that 3720 Grove Street?
Dr. May. I am not sure. It was on Grove Street right near Mac-
Arthur Boulevard.
Mr. Tavenner. Let me ask you if you were acquainted with any
of the following persons as to whom the committee has information
were members of the Communist Party:
Walter McElroy.
Dr. May. This name doesn't mean anything to me.
Mr. Tavenner. Organizer, unit 131.
Dr. May. I never heard of a unit 131.
Mr. Tavenner. I believe it was the professional section of the
Communist Party.
Mr. Velde. Where was that, Mr. Counsel, Oakland?
Mr. Tavenner. I think it was in San Francisco.
Dr. May. You understand, I am not saying that no such unit ever
existed, but it doesn't mean anything to me.
Mr. Tavenner. Walter Herrick.
Dr. May. This name doesn't mean anything to me.
Mr. Tavenner. Velda Jolmson?
Dr. May. No, sir.
Mr. Tavenner. Chandler Weston?
Dr. May. No, sir. Perhaps these aren't real names.
Mr. Tavenner. I have before me a list of those who registered as
Communist Party members in Alameda County, furnished by the
clerk of the court of that countj^ on November 10, 1942. I will read
to you the names of the persons from Berkeley, and I will ask you if
you knew them, and whether or not they were members of the Merri-
man branch, or what branch of the Communist Party they were
members of.
Mrs. Malvina Reynolds.
Dr. May. Yes, I knew her.
Mr. Tavenner. What was her affiliation with the Communist
Party?
Dr. May. She was a member of different branches at different times;
never a member of the campus branch, I don't think. I don't think
she was ever a student at the university. I think she was a member
of a geographical branch, different ones at different times, perhaps.
Mr. Tavenner. In Berkeley?
Dr. May. I knew her there in Berkeley.
Mr. Tavenner. She gave her occupation as a copy reader. Does
that help you identify her?
Dr. May. Yes. There is no doubt of my knowing her and knowing
who she was. I think probably at the time she registered here she
was working for the Daily People's World in San Francisco, and that
is why her occupation is listed as copy reader.
Mr. Tavenner. IVIrs. Vivian R. Patterson.
Dr. May. I don't know this name. I should explain to the com-
mittee that sometimes people registered as Communists to help keep
the Communist Party on the ballot, and that was the only political
thing, or almost the only political thing, they did.
3502 coMMUisrasT infiltr'Ationi of atomic bomb project
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Hattie D. Shirek.
Dr. May. I knew her; not well, but I met her.
Mr. Tavenner. With what group was she affiliated?
Dr. May. I think she was affiliated with different neighborhood
branches in Berkeley.
Mr. Tavenner. Fred Vast, newspaperman, Berkeley.
Dr. May. I know that name, but I am not sure I can link it with a
definite person. I think he was a student at the university at one
time, and when he registered as a Communist, perhaps he was working
for the People's World or some other paper; I don't know.
Mr. Tavenner. Witter De Vere Hahn.
Dr. May. I don't know this name.
Mr. Tavenner. Percy T. Hunt, machinist helper.
Dr. May. I don't know this name.
Mr. Tavenner. Joseph Hendrickson, barber.
Dr. May. I think I laiow who this was. I didn't know him person-
ally, but I think I got my hair cut at his barber shop a few times.
I couldn't positively identify the man, but it suggests to me there was
a barber who was understood to be sympathetic to the Communist
Party, and he had his shop in West Berkeley.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what group he was affiliated with?
Dr. May. I don't know that he was affiliated with any group. I
doubt that he was. I believe he is one of the people that probably
this was the only political thing he did.
Mr. Tavenner. Frank Hj aimer Wahlander, tailor, W-a-h-1-a-n-
d-e-r.
Dr. May. I think I know who this man is, although it seems to
me that the name is misspelled. It doesn't quite seem right.
Mr. Tavenner. If he is the person to whom you have reference,
what group was he affiliated with?
Dr. May. If this is the man I am thinking of, he was a tailor who
lived in West Berkeley.
Mr. Tavenner. 2316 Tenth Street?
Dr. May. Weh, he lived on Tenth Street. I don't remember the
number. He must have belonged to a neighborhood branch down in
that area. He was Fmnish, and there was probably a group of Fums
there of which he was one. But I have a feeling there was a time when
he became inactive. I recall going to talk to him, because he was a
person who knew what was going on among the Finns, and I would
sit and talk to him about what was going on.
Mr. Tavenner. John Polkki, stevedore.
Dr. May. I don't know that name.
Mr. Tavenner. Leonard Newman?
Dr. May. I think I have heard that name, but I don't think I can
identify that person.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Rhoda Linnea Samples, housewife.
Dr. May. I am not acquainted with that name.
Mr. Tavenner. Justin Vanderlaan, student.
Dr. May. He is the person I mentioned before. He was a student
at the university.
Mr. Velde. He was the one who was organizer for the YCL?
Dr. May. I am sure at one time he was.
Mr. Tavenner. George A. Kauffman, shipyard worker.
Dr. May. I knew him. I suppose he belonged to one of the
neighborhood branches.
COMMUIS'IST INriLTRATIONi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3503
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Ruth McGovney Maj^-, machinist.
Dr. May. She was my first wife. I have been married twice. My
present wife, I was not married to her at that time. As a matter
of fact, my first wife and I were separated at the time she registered,
but she still had the name of May.
Mr. Tavennee. What branch of the Communist Party was she
affiliated with ?
Dr. May. I am not sure what branch she was affiliated with at
that time. I was separated from her at the time.
Mr. Tavenner. What branch was she affiliated with that you last
knew of?
Dr. May. She was affiliated with one of the neighborhood branches
in Berkeley when we were living together.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you remember the name or designation of it?
Dr. May. Perhaps it was called the West Berkeley branch.
Mr. Velde. She now goes by the name Ruth McGovney, since the
divorce?
Dr. May. Yes. She returned to her maiden name.
Mr. Velde. What was her later work, after the divorce?
Dr. May. I thmk she had some employment with the CIO, some
kind of research work. It was some sort of research activity, but I
didn't see a great deal of her. I don't loiow exactly her employment
record.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know where she is now?
Dr. May. No, I don't.
Mr. Velde. Wasn't she employed by Dr. Bernard Peters?
Dr. May. I didn't know this.
Mr. Tavenner. What was her last employment that you know of,
her last place of address?
Dr. May. I think we exchanged letters once since the war, and
she wrote from Berkeley, and I replied. This was perhaps 2 years
ago, or a year or 2 ago.
Mr. Tavenner. Muriel Weiner, student.
Dr. May. This name doesn't recall anything to me.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Jean C. Lien, housewife.
Dr. May. I knew her.
Mr. Tavenner. With what group was she affiliated?
Dr. May. She was affiliated with one of the neighborhood groups.
She was just a housewife in Berkeley.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Merry Morgan Raas, Reader University.
Dr. May. What is that name agam?
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Merry Morgan Raas, R-a-a-s, address 2818
Shasta Road.
Dr. May. I couldn't identify this person at all. The last name is
very vaguely familiar to me. The adchess doesn't mean anything
to me.
Mr. Tavenner. Richard Cloke.
Dr. May. I met him.
Mr. Tavenner. With what group was he afiiliated?
Dr. May. He was a student at one time and I think he was in the
YCL.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Shirley J. Cloke, housewife.
Dr. May. I imagine this must be the wife of the man you just
mentioned. I met her. I didn't know her too well, but I met her.
3504 <:;0MMUN)iST infiltration' of atomic bomb project
Mr. Tavenner. Edward W. McGiickin.
Dr. May. This doesn't mean much to me.
Mr. Tavenner. A welder.
Dr. May. It doesn't mean anything to me.
Mr. Tavenner. Mrs. Paula Rodriguez, R-o-d-r-i-g-u-e-z.
Dr. May. I don't know this name.
Mr. Tavenner. Frank Walter Parsons, salesman.
Dr. May. Yes, I knew him.
Mr. Tavenner. With what group was he affiliated?
Dr. May. I knew Frank Parsons quite well because he was a
candidate, I think, for the Berkeley City Council, or for some other
office in Berkeley, at the same time I was a candidate for office, and
he was always affiliated with one or another of the geographical
branches.
Mr. Tavenner. Frank Walter Sullivan, machinist.
Dr. May. I have heard of him, but I don't think I ever met him.
Mr. Tavenner. Do you know what group he was affiliated with?
Dr. May. I don't think he was affiliated with any group. As I
remember, my impression about this man is that he was not active in
the party at the time I was there. I am not absolutely sui"e of that,
but I think I had some such impression about him.
I think I ought to say that it is possible I may have laiown all of
these people without knowing their names. That is quite possible.
Mr. Tavenner. We have information that Wilhemina Lowrey lived
in the home with Bernadette Doyle. Were you acquainted with her?
Dr. May. I was acquainted with her; yes.
Mr. Tavenner. Was she a Communist Party member?
Dr. May. I think she was. I feel pretty certain she was.
Mr. Tavenner. Wliat group was she affiliated with?
Dr. May. I think it must have been one of the geographical
branches in Berkeley.
Mr. Velde. Did she work in Communist Party headquarters at
Oakland?
Dr. May. Not while I was there. She managed a book shop.
Actually, at one time she managed two book shops, one in Berkeley
and one in Oakland. My association with her was based on the fact
that I worked with her on problems concerning the book shops.
Although the book shops were not owned by the party, we worked
in a friendlv sort of way with the book shops.
Mr. Tavenner. Dr. Weinberg testified before the committee that
he attended a Communist Party meeting which took place some place
in downtown Oakland in a rather seedy little hall, and a very talkative
lady spoke very indignantly and heatedly about subjects which he had
since forgotten. This took place in 1941, probably late in 1941. Can
you assist us in identifying the meeting and the person who spoke, and
also the place of the meeting?
Dr. May. I am afraid I can't, because I must have attended
thousands of meetings where talkative ladies spoke heatedly about
things in a small hall in Oakland. I can't separate the meetings.
However, I doubt that that w^as Airs. Lowrey. That doesn't sound like
Mrs. LowTey. Mrs. Lowrey was a very capable public speaker and
spoke with great force, but very calmly and according to the best
techniques of public speaking. In fact, she taught classes in public
speaking.
COMMUNIST mrrLTRATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3505
Mr. Tavenner. "^Yliere?
Dr. May. She probably taught many places. I recall she taught
at the Oakland Workers' School in Oakland, I think.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that a school sponsored by the party?
Dr. May. I don't know if it was officially sponsored by the party
or not, but it was supported by the party.
Mr. Tavenner. ^^Qiat was the exact name of the school?
Dr. May. I think it was called the Oakland Workers' School. 1
am not siu'e. Or the East Bay Workers' School.
Air. Tavenner. Do you recall Dr. Weinberg being present at
any meeting which you attended?
Dr. May. No, I don't.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Libby Burke?
Dr. May. This name doesn't mean anything to me, except that I
have been asked the question whether I loiew her before, but that is
the only time I recall hearmg that name.
Mr. Velde. I wonder if you would describe the Communist Party
headquarters in Oakland to the committee, where it was located, and
who occupied the offices at the time you w^ere there.
Dr. May. We were at two locations at different times. The first
location, I have forgotten the street number, but it was on the main
central street of downtown Oakland, but a little below the main
business district, in a run-down part of the main street. It was in an
upstairs office, tw^o rooms. In the front room there were some books
on display, and in the inner office, we modified it from time to time,
but at one time I remember there were three different partitions, and I
occupied one of these places, and Paul Crouch occupied another at
one time, and later Steve Nelson occupied one of these, and Charles
Drasnin occupied one at one time.
The other headquarters was on a different street. I am not sure of
the name of the street, but it was a street parallel to the main street in
Oakland, a couple blocks away from the main street. This was again
an upstairs — wait a minute. Did the party actually occupy that as
headquarters? No. Excuse me. I will have to change that, I
think at the time I was there the only office that the party occupied
was this one I first described on Broadway. In the other location
I was thinking of there Avas a book store, and at one time this Oakland
Workers' School had its offices there. I think the People's World,
San Francisco newspaper, had its offices there at one time. But I
never occupied a party office there. I was interested in the school and
was there in connection wdth the school, but not in connection with the
party.
Mr. Velde. That was two blocks east of Broadway?
Dr. AIay. I think so. It might have been three.
Mr. Velde. How many offices were there, how many rooms?
Dr. AIay. At that location?
Mr. Velde. Yes.
Dr. May. Wlien I last remember, this was used as the location of
the school, and I think there were perhaps three different rooms
upstairs.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Rena Vail?
Dr. May. This name doesn't recaU anything to my mind.
Mr. Tavenner. Dr. May, did you at any time hold membership in
the Federation of Architects, Engineers, Chemists, and Technicians?
8506 COMMUNIST INFILTRATIONi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
Dr. AIay. No, sir; I never did.
Mr. Tavenner. Were you acquainted with Marcel Scherer, an
organizer for FAECT?
Dr. May. I met him.
Mr. Tavenner. What was the extent of your acquaintanceship
with him?
Dr. May. I think I met him altogether perhaps two or three times.
I was introduced to him as an organizer for the FAECT, and I chatted
with him about union matters, which I often did with union people
that I met.
Mr. Tavenner. And your official position at that time was what?
Dr. May. At that time my official position was — I am not sure if it
was when I was educational director or organizational secretary, but
I was an official of the party.
It was quite frequent for party people to go, and on their initiative,
talk to union officials and discuss general problems with them, some-
times offering assistance to the union in some problem that was coming
up, and sometimes just discussing general questions.
Air. Tavenner. Did he seek assistance of any kind from you or
from the Communist Party?
Dr. May. He didn't from me. I had the impression that I was
just introduced to him because he was a person of some prominence
in the trade-union movement and I ought to know him. I had no
dealings with him. It was a matter of having lunch together once
or twice.
Mr. Tavenner. From your conversation with him, did you learn
he was a member of the Communist Party?
Dr. May. We never discussed that at all. I might also say that
that was the sort of thing people did not discuss. I never asked
people whether they were members of the party, and they never
raised the question that I was. It was one of those things we just
didn't talk about.
Mr. Tavenner. Was there a Communist Party cell in the F.A.ECT?
Dr. AIay. I don't know whether there was or not. It was generally
thought that there was; I will say that.
Mr. Tavenner. As organizational secretary, didn't the funds
resulting from the collection of dues pass through your hands?
Dr. May. Yes, but they might have been disguised in some way.
Mr. Tavenner. Was that the practice, to disguise the funds?
Dr. May. Everything came in rather general terms. A branch
would have some name that didn't necessarily indicate what it was.
I imagine if any people in FAECT were in the Communist Party
they wanted to conceal it, because they feared job discrimination.
Mr. Tavenner. I have just been handed information indicating
that Ruth AlcGovney was secretary of the San Francisco division of
the Federation of Architects, Engineers, Chemists, and Technicians
on January 29, 1946. Do you have any information regarding that?
Dr. May. I didn't know this. When I got out of the Army I saw
her, I believe, once or twice, and she told me she was working for the
CIO, but I don't recall what the nature of her work was, exactly.
Mr. .A.PPELL. Dr. May, the records of the committee contain
proxies from members of the State central committee of the Com-
munist Party for attendance at the State central committee meeting
at Sacramento, in the year 1940. As a proxy to Charles G. Drasnin,
COMMUNIST INFILTRATIONi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3507
whom you have identified, your name is Hsted, together with the names
of Frank H. (Bimbo) Brown; Eddie Marie Cobb; Alfred Newell
Johnson; Lorine Kinz; and George B. Seel.
Are you acquainted with all of those individuals?
Dr. May. Yes, I am. Or I was, I should say.
Mr. Appell. To what group or cell was Frank Brown assigned, to
your knowledge?
Dr. May. Frank Brown was a longshoreman or a warehouseman, so
he might have been in a group of longshoremen at one time, or at
another time he might have been in a neighborhood group, depending
on circumstances,
Mr. Appell. Eddie Marie Cobb.
Dr. May. She was in a neighborhood group.
I don't recollect an occasion when T gave my proxy to somebody
else. To whom did I give it?
Mr. Appell. To Charles Drasnin.
Dr. May. It must have had something to do with this State commit-
tee meeting. It was just a formality; they met and adjourned. So I
think people gave their proxies to somebody else. They just met and
adjourned.
I think "Bimbo" Brown and Johnson and Kinz were candidates for
office on the Communist Party ballot, and they automatically were on
this committee, the same as I was. Of course I knew them, because I
worked a great deal on this election matter.
Mr. Appell. To what group was Alfred Newell Johnson assigned?
Dr. May. I think he was assigned to the YCL, but he wasn't very
active.
Air. Appell. Was he a student at the university?
Dr. May. Not at that time. I have the impression that later he
became a student.
Mr. Appell. This proxy was signed in September 1940. Do you
think it was later that he attended the university?
Dr. May. Yes, but this seems strange. Could you explain to me
how I happened to be giving a proxy to someone at this time?
Mr. Appell. I am quoting to you from the report of Investigators
James H. Steedman and William N. Dunstan covering their activities
for the Special Committee on Un-American Activities for the period
November 9 through November 15, 1941, in which they enclose and
make a part of their report a list of Communist Party proxies from duly
qualified members of the State central committee of the Communist
Party for attendance at the State central committee meeting at Sacra-
mento in the year 1940. The month of the meeting is not given in
the report.
Dr. May. I had forgotten that I was a member of the State central
committee at that time. It must have been that I was one of those
elected in the primary election. It was my memory that the only
people on the State central committee were candidates for office, but
evidently there were some elected, and I must have been one of those,
but I still don't remember the incident at all.
Mr. Appell. You have identified Lorine Kinz as a person you knew?
Dr. May. Yes.
Mr. Appell. During the time you were active in the Communist
Party in California, to what cell or group was she assigned?
Dr. May. She belonged to a branch in West Oakland.
3508 COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
Mr. Appell. Was she at any time a student at the university?
Dr. May. I am quite sure she was not.
Mr. Appell. Another proxy was given to Charles Drasnin by
George B. Seel. To what group or cell of the Communist Party was
Mr. Seel assigned?
Dr. May. I am not sure of this. He worked in the office, not as
an official of the party, but as a sort of office helper, not a secretary,
but he did things such as keep the office clean and sell literature, and
he undoubtedly belonged to some branch in the central Oakland
area, or different branches. He was an elderly man.
Mr. Appell. I would like to read a list of the persons to or from
whom proxies were issued, and ask you to break in only after I mention
a name when you know that person to have been a student at the
university :
Richard Jaramillo Bernard J. Chevraux
James McGowan Emil Freed
Harold Allinger
Dr. May. Just a moment. I have heard the name Emil Freed, and
it is possible he was at the university. I am not positive, but the
name is a little familiar. It rings a little bell. I am not sure he was
a student.
Mr. Appell (continuing reading) :
Louis Baron Salman N. Buchman
Mrs. MoUie Buchman Mrs. Tassia Freed
I assume she was the wife of Emil Freed?
Dr. May. I don't know.
Mr. Appell (contmuing reading) :
Jack Ginsburg Mrs. Edith Rapport
Mrs. Annie Goldberg George Rapport
Henry Steinberg Miss Celeste Strack
Mrs. Sarah Kusnitz
Dr. May. Miss Celeste Strack was a student at the University of
California at Los Angeles at the time I was an undergraduate, and
I knew of her because she was expelled from the University of Cal-
ifornia at Los Angeles for Communist activities. Her case was a
very famous one.
Mr. Appell. She was a leader of the American Student LTnion,
was she not?
Dr. May. I don't know. I think at a later time she was a graduate
student at the University of California in Berkeley, but not at the
time I was a member of the party there.
Mr. Velde. Did I understand you to say you did not know George
Rapport?
Dr. May. I have heard the name, but that is all I know about it.
Mr. Appell (continuing reading):
Charles Gricus Clarence Paton
Margaret F. Waegell Mrs. Clara Fetrow
Robert Wood John E. Hughes
Albert J. Lima IVIrs. Lola Hughes
John R. Heino Gertrude R. Stoughton
Mrs. Helen Lima Pettis Perry
Mrs. Nora Cecel Woodhurst
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3509
Do you know of the activities of Pettis Perry?
Dr. May. I knew Pettis Perry, but I am sure he was never a student
at the University of Cahfornia.
Mr. Appell. At the time you knew Pettis Perry, did he hold an
official position with the Communist Party?
Dr. May. Yes; he did. He was an official of the Communist Party
in Los Angeles. I have forgotten his exact position there. He ran
for office in the State of California in 1942 when I did, and on occasion
I traveled with him or spoke with him.
Mr. Appell (continuing reading) :
Mrs. Gertrude Betts
Mrs. Mary Butler
Mrs. Leona Chamberlin
Samuel W. Jones
Mrs. Viola M. Maddox
Helen Maloff
James C. McLean
Mrs. Miriam Moore
Edwin J. Nelson
Herman N. Steffens
Mrs. Forrest G. Thompson
Mrs. Adele R. Young
John Polkki
George R. Ashby
Howard R. Barnhart
Mrs. Nellie Barnhart
Mrs. Nellie M. Bongye
Mildred T. Brown
Thomas J. Cooney
Mrs. Wenona B. Craft
Rachel O. Miller
Carroll E. Peirce
Pearl C. Souders
Mrs. Myra Rhetta
Edward Bishop
Benjamin F. Burns
Mrs. Cyril G. Cook
Harry L. Gray
Miss Fay Reynolds
Bronson Skala
Mabel W. Skala
Esco L. Richardson
Clair Aderer
Mr. Velde. As I understand, you will stop him
Dr. May. I will stop him if a person has been a student at the
university.
Mr. Appell (continuing reading) :
Melissa Gragg
La Verne Lym
Dan Taylor
Malby Roberts
Peter Frost
Elizabeth M. Nicholas
Edward J. Paterson
Anna Porter
Harold Thomas
George C. Sandy
Milton Alterman
Mrs. Clara L. Fox
Mrs. Sadie Goldstein
Clara R. Lair
Orla Edward Lair
Albert Lane Lewis
Harry Ovadenko
Marvel Ovadenko
George A. Brain
Margaret Lafler
Leo Baroway
Elaine Black
Esther Brown
Edmund C. Burk
Lou Mae Lean Craig
Elsie Crane
Emma Cutler
Lillian Friedman
Henry Andrews Harris
Vernon D. Healy
Sam Jaye
Beatrice Kinkead
Walter R. Lambert
John Michael Lucid
Harry Albert Mereness, Jr.
Homer Mulligan
Emile Rabin
William Schneiderman
I assume he was the man who was head of the Communist Party in
Cahfornia.
Ada L. Smolan Walter J. Stack
Dr. May. Excuse me. Ada Smolan was a student at the University
of California for a short time during the summer of 1937. I met her
in a class. It was an intensive course in Russian, a 10-week course,
being attended by State Department people. Army people, and 'a
3510 COMMUMTST INFII^TR'ATION OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
scattering of others. I understood she was a student at Stanford,
but came up for the summer course. I became acquainted with her
in the class, but that is all.
Mr. Appell. Do you possess any knowledge showing her member-
ship in the YCL or in the Communist Party?
Dr. May. I didn't know at that time, but later she was an official
of the party in San Francisco. Just what official position she occu-
pied, I don't remember.
Mr. Appell (continuing reading) :
Walter J. Stack Allan T. Yates
Rosalie Todd Oleta Yates
Dr. May. I knoAV that she was a student at the University of Cali-
fornia, but it was before 1932. Her name then was Oleta Conner,
and she was active in the Socialist Party, and there was a big debate
to which I went as a high school student, and she was speaking for
the Socialist candidate for President.
I recall that because later I met her when she had become a member
of the Communist Party, and I recalled I had her heard make this
speech. She was a graduate of the University of California, but con-
siderably before my time.
Mr. Appell (continuing reading) :
Robert Wood Alice IMartin
Thelma E. Phelps Frank A. Martin
Albert Hougardy Florencio Moisa
Harold J. Ashe Max Natapoff
Edward N. Dieblen Lawrence Ross
Maurice Gutierrez Ralph Allen Welden
William Kellas
Mr. Appell. That is all.
Mr. Tavenner. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Velde. Were you acquainted with any of the officials of the
Soviet Consulate in San Francisco?
Dr. May. No; I was not.
Mr. Velde. You never became acquamted with Peter Ivanov?
Dr. May. This name of Ivanov was mentioned today. I didn't
know those people. However, I do recall on one occasion going to
some sort of a social affair at which I was told there were some Soviet
officials present, and one was pointed out to me at a distance. I don't
remember his name being mentioned. He was dark and slim and he
looked so sinister that we were all joking about it.
Mr. Velde. Do you recall the occasion of that meeting where you
saw him?
Dr. May. No. The only thing I recall is that it was at a big house,
and that I was not acquainted with the people who were giving the
party. I got an indirect invitation to come to it. It was a social
affair, maybe put on by American-Russian Friendship, something like
that. There was some reason for the Soviet people to be there.
Mr. Velde. This was in San Francisco?
Dr. May. No ; it was in East Bay. I remember it was a large house,
but I don't remember anything else about the party than that.
Mr. Velde. Coming back to your conversation with Steve Nelson
on your visit to his home during the war, I want to ask you to try to
remember the subject of your conversation and the approximate date.
Dr. May. Could you repeat that?
COMMUNIST INFILTRATION' OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT 3511
Mr. Velde. You mentioned that during the war, probably when
you were home on leave, you visited Steve Nelson at his home. I
want you to try to recall the subject of the conversation at that time,
if you can, and the approximate date.
Dr. May. I don't recall actually anything about the conversation,
but I assume that it was mainly my telling of my adventures,
because that was usually my topic of conversation when I was home
on leave, no matter whom I ran into.
Mr. Velde. I assume Steve Nelson spoke about his fighting in the
Spanish Civil War?
Dr. May. He might have, although Steve Nelson didn't talk very
much about his war experiences. He was more modest than I was.
Mr. Velde. Do j'ou have any other information of any kind that
you think might be valuable to this committee?
Dr. May. I don't think so.
Mr. A-ppell. Our records reflect that on April 7, 1948, you signed
a letter in defense of the Jefferson School of Social Science.
Dr. May. Do you know the natm'e of the letter?
Mr. Appell. It was a protest against the listing by the Attorney
General of the Jefferson School of Social Science as a Communist
school. I would like to know if you did sign it, or whether they used
yom" name without your permission, and if you did sign, how were
you approached to defend that school?
Dr. 5Iay. I have signed one thing of this general nature since the
war. I don't know that this is it, but I presume this must be it,
from the fact you say it.
I receive C[uite frequently appeals from all sorts of organizations by
mail, and on one occasion I remember I did decide I would sign the
thing and return it. The only thing I remember about it is that
they said that if you didn't want the institution with wliich you were
associated to be listed, to so designate, and I did so designate. Later
I got a list of the people who had. signed, and they did not put the
name of the institution there. I asked them, if they wished to list
my name as signing this appeal, that they simply list my name as an
individual. _^*
Mr. Appell. What did you sign on the card?
Dr. May. Simply my name.
Mr. Appell. For identification purposes you didn't want Carleton
College to be shown as the school with which you were associated?
Dr. May. Exactly. I didn't want to embarrass the college. It is
no secret I teach there, but it is dubious whether a person should list
his connection if it might look as though the institution is endorsing it.
No individual ever talked to me about it. It was just one of many
such letters I received, and my feeling was that the listing of educa-
tional institutions as subversive raises the question of freedom of
instruction, freedom of speech.
Mr. Appell. Along that line I would like to ask you, take the
Oaldand Workers' School, California Labor School, and other schools
not operated by the party but heavily supported by the party, other
than teaching, isn't the purpose of those schools to recruit members
into the Communist Party?
Dr. May. The only school with which I had direct experience was
this Oakland Workers' School, and my main interest in it was simply
3512 COMMUNII'ST INTFILTR'ATIONi OF ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT
that it would, I hoped, educate the members of the party and other
people, give them more education, so that they would have better
understanding. It was not primarily concerned with recruiting people
into the party.
Mr. Appell. Were all of the students at the Oakland Workers'
School members of the Communist Party?
Dr. May. No. Alany people were not, I am sure.
Mr. Appell. And in the course of the instruction of Communist
Party members, weren't the non-Communists indoctrinated with
communism?
Dr. May. Possibly that may have been.
Mr. Appell. And from your experience in the Communist Party,
isn't the same thing true of the California Labor School and the
Jefferson School of Social Science.
Dr. May. I would like to distinguish the Workers' School in which
I was involved from these other schools. The Workers' School in
which I was involved was more definitely organized by party people.
It didn't have any broad backing at all. Wliereas, as I understand
it, I have very little knowledge of these other institutions, but I
understand they had rather broad backing. The California Labor
School bad broad labor backing.
Mr. Appell, Who formed the Tom Mooney School?
Dr. May. I am not familiar with that. I have no doubt Com-
munists were involved in organizing it, but I was not involved, and
I don't laiow.
Mr. Appell. The records of our committee, and the studies we
have made of these schools, indicate that while they have in the past
received support from labor organizations, most of that support came
from the organizations which have now been expelled from the CIO,
and these schools have operated as indoctrmation centers for the
Communist Party. Doesn't that place these schools, as educational
institutions, foreign and apart frtitoi what we consider to be educa-
tional institutions?
Dr. May. I really don't know the answer to that. You have more
information about it than I do. *'ip. any case, my feeling about it
was one based on general principles, not on specific knowledge of
these schools.
Mr. Velde. If you subsequently recall any other names of im-
portant members of the Communist Party, or an}^ other information
of value to the committee, we will appreciate your forwarding it to us.
The meeting is adjourned.
(Thereupon, at 11:55 a. m., the hearing was adjourned.)
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