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Full text of "Hearings regarding Toma Babin. Hearings"

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T. 







Given By 

U. a SUPT. OF DOCUMENTS 



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HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 

J 



HEARINGS 

BEFORE THE 

COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

EIGHTY-FIRST CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 



MAY 27 AND JULY 6, 1949 



Printed for the use of the Committee on Un-American Activities 




UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
93611 WASHINGTON : 1949 






fj0^ y^ ^/^^ 



COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES 
United States House of Representatives 

JOHN S. WOOD, Georgia, Chairman 

FRANCIS E. WALTER, Pennsylvania J. PARNELL THOMAS, New Jersey 

BURR P. HARRISON, Virginia RICHARD M. NIXON, California 

JOHN McSWEENEY, Ohio FRANCIS CASE, South Dakota 

MORGAN M. MOULDER, Missouri HAROLD H. VELDE, Illinois 

Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., Counsel 

Louis J. Russell, Senior Investigator 

John W. Carrinoton, Clerk of Committee 

Benjamin Mandel, Director o Research 

II 



CONTENTS 



Page 

May 27, 1949: Testimony'of Toma Babin 165 

July 6, 1949: Testimony of— 

Charles McKillips 170 

Arthur W. Fry 171 

Exliibits follow page 174. 

Ill 



HEARINGS EEGARDING TOMA BABIN 



FRIDAY, MAY 27, 1949 

United States House of Repeesentatives, 

Committee on Un-American Activities, 

Washington, D. C. 

executive session 1 

The Committee on Un-American Activities met pursuant to call at 
11 a.m. in room 226, Old House Office Building, Hon. John S. Wood 
(chau^man) presiding. 

Committee members present: Representatives John S. Wood (chair- 
man), Francis E. Walter, Burr P. Harrison, Morgan M. Moulder, 
Richard M. Nixon, and Francis Case. 

Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; Louis J. 
Russell, senior investigator; Donald T. Appell, William A. Wheeler, 
and Courtney Owens, investigators; and A. S. Poore, editor. 

Mr. Wood. Let the committee come to order, and let the record 
disclose that Mr. Walter, Mr. Harrison, Mr. Moulder, Mr. Case, and 
the chairman are present. 

(Thereupon, Mr. Toma Babin, accompanied by his counsel, Mr. 
Joseph Forer, entered the hearing room.) 

Mr. Wood. Mr. Babin, will you raise your right hand, please. You 
solemnly swear that the evidence you will give this committee will be 
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Babin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Wood. Are you accompanied by an attorney, Mr. Babin? 

Mr. Babin. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Wood. Will your attorney please identify himself for the 
record? 

Mr. FoRER. My name is Joseph Forer, F-o-r-e-r. 

Mr. Wood. Your address, please. 

Mr. Forer. I am a member of the District of Columbia bar. My 
office is at 1105 K Street NW., Washington, D. C. 

Mr. Wood. Telephone? 

Mr. Forer. Telephone National 4047. 

SWORN TESTIMONY OF TOMA BABIN 

Mr. Russell. Mr. Babin, will you state your full name and 
present address? 

Mr. Babin. Yes. My name is Toma Babin, 274 West Nineteenth 
Street, New York City. 

Mr. Russell. When and where were you born? 

Mr. Babin. I was born in Yugoslavia in 1901. 

^ Testimony taken in executive session and released during public hearing, July 6, 1949. 

155 



156 HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 

Mr. Russell. You were born in Poljana, Yugoslavia? 

Mr. Babin. Poljana, yes. 

Mr. FoEER. Mr. Russell, would you mind stating for the record 
the rules of the committee as to the participation of counsel? 

Mr. Wood. The witness is permitted at all times to confer with 
counsel as fully as he desires. If any questions are asked the witness 
that he desires to confer with counsel about before answering, he may 
do so. 

Mr. FoRER. Counsel has no other rights of participation? 

Mr. Wood. No. 

Let the record show Mr. Nixon is present also. 

Mr. Russell. When did you first enter the United States? 

Mr. Babin. I first entered the United States in 1925, in November, 
something like that. 

Mr. Russell. In what port did you enter? 

Mr. Babin. Port of New York. 

Mr. Russell. How did you enter? 

Mr. Babin. As a seaman. 

Mr. Russell. Did you enter by deserting the steamship Pastores 
of Calamares? 

Mr. Babin. Yes. 

Mr. Russell. After your arrival in the United States in November 
1925, by whom were you employed? 

Mr. Babin. I was employed by the Hamburg-American Line, New 
York dock. 

Mr. Russell. Your entry in 1925 was illegal, was it not?. 

Mr. Babin. Was illegal as a seaman. 

Mr. Russell. Have you remained continuously in the United 
States since your illegal entry in November 1925? 

Mr. Babin. I remained until 1937. 

Mr. Russell. Did you travel to Spain in 1937? 

Mr. Babin. 1937 and 1938. 

Mr. Russell. When you traveled to Spain, what sort of passport 
did you use? 

Mr. Babin. I used a Spanish passport. 

Mr. Russell. On what ship did you travel? 

Mr. Babin. Steamship Georgik. 

Mr. Russell. It was a British ship, was it not? 

Mr. Babin. A British ship, yes. 

Mr. Russell. When did you next enter the United States after 
your trip to Spain? 

Mr. Babin. I entered the United States as a seaman in 1939, in 
August, I believe, 1st of August 1939, on the steamship Scottish 
Maiden. 

Mr. Russell. When you were in Spain, were you a member of the 
Abraham Lincoln Brigade? 

Mr. Babin. I was. 

Mr. Russell. How did you enter the United States the second 
time in 1937? 

Mr. Babin. 1939. 

Mr. Russell. 1939? 

Mr. Babin. Yes. As a seaman. 

Mr. Russell. Did you enter as a deserter from a British tanker 
known as the Scottish Maiden'^. 



HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 157 

Mr. Babin. No, sir. During that time the master of the ship gave 
me a leave to visit my uncle in Hartford, Conn., and before the ship 
returned back war was declared. Then I remained there. 

Mr. Russell. Did you ever return to the ship the Scottish Maiden? 

Mr. Babin. No, because the Scottish Maiden did not come back. 

Mr. Russell. You remained in the United States illegally, then?. 

Mr. Babin. Yes. 

Mr. Russell. Have you ever used the name Tom Lostika? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. Were you ever arrested by the Immigration Service? 

Mr. Babin. Never. 

Mr. Russell. Did you know Tom Lostika? 

Mr. Babin. I know him, yes. 

Mr. Russell. How did you know him? 

Mr. Babin. As my cousin I loiow him. 

Mr. Russell. Was he ever arrested and deported from the United 
States? 

Mr. Babin. He was deported from the United States. I don't 
know the year, but I know he was deported. 

Mr. Russell. Did you ever legalize your residence in the United 
States? 

Mr. Babin. I went to the Department of Justice in 1945, I beUeve, 
and filled out the applications and everything else. 

Mr. Russell. Did you ever make application for a permanent status 
immigration visa? 

Mr. Babin. Yes. 

Mr. Russell. Was your request granted? 

Mr. Babin. No reply was made. 

Mr. Russell, By whom are you employed at the present time? 

Mr. Babin. At the present time I work for the business organization 
which sends packages and all kinds of materials to Yugoslavia. 

Mr. Russell. What is the name of the organization, the Yugo- 
slavian Relief organization? 

Mr. Babin. No. Translated it is the Volunteer Committee for 
Yugoslav Relief. It was formed after the war. 

Mr. Russell. You have been examined by the Immigration and 
Naturalization Service, have you not? 

Mr. Babin. I was examined by the Department of Justice in 1945, 
as I stated. 

Mr. Russell. Were you asked at that time if you were then or 
had ever been a member of the Communist Party of the United 
States? 

Mr. Babin. I wasn't asked. 

Mr. Russell. You were not asked that question? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of 
the Communist Party of the United States or of Yugoslavia? 

Mr. Babin. I have never been. 

Mr. Russell. You have never been a member of the Communist 
Party? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. During your period of residence in the United 
States, have you ever contacted the Russian consulate in New York 
City? 



158 HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 

Mr. Babin. I never contacted nobody. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know Mikhail A. Ouraevsky? 

Mr. Babin. I don't know him. 

Mr. Russell. M-i-k-h-a-i-1 A, 0-u-r-a-e-v-s-k-y. You have never 
met him? 

Mr. Babin. Never met him and don't know the guy. 

Mr. Russell. You never met him any place? 

Mr. Babin. No place. 

Mr. Russell. In New York City? 

Mr. Babin. No; no place. 

Mr. Russell. Or any other place? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. Did you ever use the name "Johnson"? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. Never under any circumstances? 

Mr. Babin. Never; never. Always I used my own name. 

Mr. Russell. You never met Ouraevsky on Fortieth Street in 
New York City? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. You are positive of that? 

Mr. Babin. Positive. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know Mikhail Vavilov? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. \Vho was an employee of the Russian consulate in 
New York City? 

Mr. Babin. I don't know nothing about him. I never met the guy. 

Mr. Russell. Did you attend the Third Free World Congress 
Convention at the Hotel Pennsylvania in New York City in 1943 
with Vavilov and Ouraevsky? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. Did you attend the Third Free World Congress 
Convention? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. You are Tom Babin? 

Mr. Babin. Yes. 

Mr. Russell. T-o-m B-a-b-i-n? 

Mr. Babin. Yes. 

Mr. Russell. You are positive? 

Mr. Babin. Yes. 

Mr. Russell. And the answers you have given are truthful an- 
swers? 

Mr. Babin. Yes. 

Mr. Russell. Mr. Babin, have you ever been a member of the 
American Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born? 

Mr. Babin. Member; as my organization was affiliated. 

Mr. Russell. Weren't you a member of the committee on resolu- 
tions? 

Mr. Babin. Never. 

Mr. Russell. You were not a member of the committee on resolu- 
tions? 

Mr. Babin. Never. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know Abner Green? He was secretary of 
the American Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born. 

Mr. Babin. I know him; yes. 



HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 159 

Mr. Russell. Didn't he appoint you a member of the committee 
on resolutions? 

Air. Babin. Never. 

Mr. Russell. Did you attend a meeting of the American Com- 
mittee for the Protection of Foreign Born at the Hotel Commodore 
in New York City in October 1943? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know Ai-thur Bartl, B-a-r-t-1? 

Mr. Babin. Yes; from Spain. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know Daisy Lolich? 

Mr. Babin. I know her, his wife. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know Konstantin Shabaiiov? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. Tou never contacted Mr. Shabanov? 

Mr. Babin. Never, I don't know who is that guy. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know whether or not he was the successor^of 
Mr. Ouraevsky at the Soviet consulate in New York City? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. Do you loiow Bella Golden? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. You never contacted her in the offices of the 
Russian War Relief? 

Mr. Babin. I don't remember. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know Bella Golden? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. Have you ever been in the offices of the Russian 
War Relief in New York City at any time? 

Mr. Babin. During the campaign for Russian war relief I many 
times brought in money, but I don't know the woman, don't know 
nobody. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know Milton Wolff? 

Mr. Babin. I know him in Spain. 

Mr. Russell. Did you serve with Milton Wolff as a member of 
the Abraham Lincoln Brigade? 

Mr. Babin. Yes. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know Anton S. Ivancic? 

Mr. Babin. Captain Ivancic. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know him? 

Mr. Babin. Yes. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know Sally Goldwood? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know Sally Goldwood Radic? 

Mr. Babin. Yes, that is right. 

Mr. Russell. What was the nature of your association with Sally 
Goldwood Radic? 

Mr. Babin. I know Radic and know he is married to that girl. I 
never saw her before. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know Louis Adamic? 

Mr. Babin. I know Louis Adamic. I saw him. 

Mr. Russell. What was the nature of your association with Louis 
Adamic? 

Mr. Babin. There is no nature. I just saw him a few times, that 
is all. 

Mr. Russell. Where did you see him? 

93611—49 — —2 



160 HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 

Mr. Babin. I saw him in New York. 

Mr. Russell. In what place? 

Mr. Babin. At his hotel. 

Mr. Russell. His hotel? 

Mr. Babin. Yes. 

Mr. Russell. What hotel was that? 

Mr. Babin. I guess St. Regis. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know Avrom Landy, A-A-r-o-m L-a-n-d-y? 

Mr. Babin. I don't know the guy. 

Mr. Russell. He was formerly director of the foreign nationality 
groups of the Communist Party. You say you do not know him? 

Mr. Babin. No. I never saw the guy. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know Leon Krzycki, president of the Ameri- 
can Slav Congress? 

Mr. Babin, I know him. 

Mr. Russell. How well do you know him? 

Mr. Babin. I met him during the war at Detroit at the American 
Slav Congress; not met him, but I know him; I saw him there. 

Mr. Russell. Did he ever request you to contact Avrom Landy? 

Mr. Babin. Never. I never talked to Mr. Krzycki. 

Mr. Russell. You never talked to Mr. Krzycki at all? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. In New York City? 

Mr. Babin. Never. 

Mr. Russell. Were you a member or an officer of the Americans 
of South Slavic Descent? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell, You have never been associated with that organiza- 
tion? 

Mr. Babin. I have read the literature, but I never was a member 
of it. 

Mr. Russell. Did you help organize the war relief fund of the 
Americans of South Slavic Descent? 

Mr. Babin, I just donated money and worked for them. 

Mr, Russell. Did you play any part in the organization? 

Mr, Babin, Yes, During the relief drive I spoke at the meetings 
of the Relief for Yugoslavia, yes, 

Mr. Russell. Whom did you work with when the organization was 
formed? 

Mr. Babin. Mr. Louis Adamic and other guys. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know Zlatko Balokovic? 

Mr. Babin. Yes. 

Mr. Russell. How do you know him? 

Mr, Babin, I know him from the American Slav Congress and I 
know him before that. I met him at the concert a few times. 

Mr. Russell, You met him where? 

Mr. Babin. At the concert he gave as a violinist. 

Mr. Russell, Do you know George Buban? 

Mr. Babin. I saw him, 

Mr, Russell. Was he a vice president of the American Committee 
for Yugoslavian Relief? 

Mr. Babin, He was one of the board of directors, yes. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know Anne Traven? 

Mr. Babin. Yes. She was a secretary of the reUef committee. 



HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 161 

Mr. K ussELL. Do you know Israel Amter? 

Mr. Babin. I saw him in a picture many times in the newspaper. 

Mr. RusbELL. Did you ever talk to him? 

Mr. Babin. No; I never talked to him. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know Robert Wood? 

Mr. Babin. Never saw^ him. 

Mr. Russell. You never met him? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. Do you laiow Stanley Pustek, P-u-s-t-e-k? 

Mr. Babin. I don't remember. I don't know. 

Air. Russell. Do you know Robert Wood who was eastern 
organizer for the raih'oad committee of the Comm.unist Party in 1945? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. You never met him? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. And you don't know Stanley Pustek? 

Mr. Babin. One Stanley I met in Spain. I don't know his exact 
name. 

Mr. Russell. He was New York port patrolman of the National 
Maritime Union. You say you met him in Spain? 

Mr. Babin. Yes. 

Mr. Russell. You never saw him in the United States? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. What did you discuss with him in Spain? Did he 
ever suggest to you that you should take part in the picket Jines in 
connection with the maritime strike? 

Mr. Babin. Never. I met him as a friend in Spain, that is all. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know Harry Justiz? 

Mr. Babin. I know him. 

Mr. Russell. Is he known to you as a member of the Communist 
Party of the United States? 

Mr. Babin. I don't know. I know him as an officer of the Yugoslav- 
American Home. 

Air. Russell. Did you ever discuss with Harry Justiz the problem 
of organizing Yugoslav seamen? 

Air. Babin. No. 

Air. Russell. Did you attend a meeting of the Yugoslav Seamen's 
Club at any time? 

Air. Babin. I am president of the Yugoslav Seamen's Club. 

Air. Russell. You are still president? 

Air. Babin. Yes. 

Air. Russell. Do you recall a meeting of the Yugoslav Seamen's 
Club held on April 5, 1947, at the Yugoslav-American Home? 

Mr. Babin. I don't remember. We have a meeting usually when 
the seamen are in port, and w^e have no exact date. 

Air. Russell. Have you ever referred to Harrj'^ Justiz as "Comrade 
Justiz" in a speech which you made? 

Mr. Babin. No. I just know him as Justiz, that is all. 

Air. Russell. Do you know George Pirinsky? 

Air, Babin. I know him. 

Mr. Russell. How well do you know him? 

Mr. Babin. I saw him speaking at the American Slav Congress in 
Detroit. 

Mr. Russell. WTien was that? 



162 HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 

Mr. Babin. 1941. 

Mr. Russell. Did you ever arrange with him to furnish the names 
and addresses of persons hving in South America? 

Mr. Babin. Never. 

Mr. Russell. You never did? 

Mr. Babin. Never, no. I don't know nothing about that. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know Capt. Albert Kamhi? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. You never heard of him? 

Mr. Babin. Never heard of him. 

Mr. Russell. Did you ever attend a Communist Party meeting 
with George Pirinsky? 

Mr. Babin. I never attended any meetings with George. 

Mr. Russell. Did you attend a meeting with George Pirinsky 
at the Hotel Lincoln on June 21, 1947? 

Mr. Babin. No. I never attended any meeting with George 
Pirinsky. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know General Ilic? 

Mr. Babin. I know him, yes, from Spain. 

Mr. Russell. How did you know him? 

Mr. Babin. I met him in Spain. 

Mr. Russell. Was he in the Abraham Lmcoln Brigade? 

Mr. Babin. No. He was in another brigade. He was a member 
of the International Brigade. 

Mr. Russell. Did yoa ever supply him with the names of persons 
and organizations in Soath America? 

Mr. Babin. Never; never. 

Mr. Russell. Did you ever make a speech in which you intro- 
duced General Ilic to the audience? 

Mr, Babin. He spoke at the Yugoslav-American Home, but I 
did not introduce him. 

Mr. Russell. Didn't you mtroduce him as an old-time Communist 
who operated as a propagandist from Paris and Belgium ''about 
6 or 7 years ago"? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. You deny that? 

Mr. Babin. Yes. 

Mr. Rufc-SELL. Do you laiow Anthony Gerlach? 

Mr. Babin. Yes. 

Mr. Russell. How well do you know him? 

Mr. Babin. He was living in New York. I know him smce I came 
here. 

Mr. Russell. Do you loiow if he ever addressed a meeting of the 
American Association for the Reconstruction of Yugoslavia? 

Mr. Babin. No. I never attended a meeting of that sort. 

Mr. Russell. At this particular meeting he said, in speaking of 
the Americans of Yugoslavic descent, that they should return to 
Yugoslavia. He said: 

This is secret. We do not want Americans who are not our friends to know 
this for the Government would not permit it. 

In the same speech he said you would be in charge of making all 
arrangements for the shipment of equipment and transportation of 
workers to Yugoslavia. Do you deny that? 
Mr. Babin. Absolutely. 



HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 163 

Mr. Russell. Do you know Sam Madell? 

Mr. Babin. Sam Madell? 

Mr. Russell. Yes. 

Mr. Babin. I don't know. I can't remember all these names. 
Maybe I know; maybe I don't. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know George Watt? 

Mr. Babin. George Watt, I know him from Spain. 

Mr. Russell. You know him as a member of the trade-union 
department of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Babin. I met him in Spain. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know whether he is a member of the Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr. Babin. I don't know. 

Mr. Russell. He never told you he was a member of the Com- 
munist Party? 

Mr. Babin. Never. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know Joseph Zavertnik? 

Mr. Babin. Yes. 

Mr. Russell. How do you know him? 

Mr. Babin. I know him during the relief campaign, Yugoslavian 
relief, and I know him as vice president of the [Yugoslav] American 
Home Corp. 

Mr. Russell. Did you ever attend a meeting of the Union of 
Yugoslav Americans? 

Mr. Babin. Well, during that time I don't know. Maybe I 
attended or not. 

Mr. Russell. Did you attend one on November 30, 1947, or 
sometime during the latter part of 1947? 

Mr. Babin. I don't remember that. 

Mr. Russell. It was in celebration of the second anniversary of 
the Tito government. 

Mr. Babin. I don't remember that. 

Mr. Russell. You don't remember? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. Did you make a speech at any time before the Union 
of Yugoslav Americans? 

Mr. Babin. Only for relief. 

Mr. Russell. On November 30, 1947, according to our informa- 
tion, you made a speech in which you accused the United States of 
working with all its strength to destroy the workers of New Yugo- 
slavia, and you said: 

We have to be aware of this fact and we have to make an effort that the working 
class will reach its goal. 

Mr. Babin. I never said that. 
Mr. Russell. You deny that? 
Mr. Babin. I never said that. 
Mr. Russell. Do you know Steve Nelson? 
Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. You never met him? 
Mr. Babin. I met him in Spain. 

Mr. Russell. You said you didn't know him, and now you say 
you do know him? 

Mr. Babin. I met him in Spain. 

Mr. Russell. You never saw him in the United States? 



164 HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. You never made arrangements with him to pay a 
joint hotel bill at the Lincoln Hotel? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. You are positive of that? 

Mr. Babin. Yes. 

Mr. Russell. Did you ever meet him in the United States by 
another name than Steve Nelson? 

Mr. Babin. I don't know. 

Mr. Russell. Did you ever know him as Steve Mesarosh? 

Mr. Babin. No, never. 

Mr. Russell. Did you serve under him as a member of the Abra- 
ham Lincoln Brigade? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. He was a member of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade? 

Mr. Babin. I at that time was a member of the Balkan Battalion 
of International Brigades. I was about 3 months a member of the 
Abraham Lincoln Brigade. 

Mr. Russell. Did you meet Steve Nelson in California in 1944 
and 1945? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. Were you ever in California? 

Mr. Babin. I was in California off and on. 

Mr. Russell. What was the purpose of your visits? 

Mr. Babin. Relief. 

Mr. Russell. You were collecting money? 

Mr. Babin. Collecting money for Yugoslavian relief, 

Mr. Russell. Where? 

Mr. Babin. Los Angeles, San Pedro, Watsonville, Oakland, Seattle, 
and other places. 

Mr. Russell. Did you collect any money from Louise Bransten 
in California? 

Mr, Babin. I don't know. I was speaking at meetings for Yugo- 
slavian relief, 

Mr, Russell. Were there any large contributors? 

Mr, Babin, I didn't get the money. The committee arranged the 
meeting, collected the money, and sent it to New York, 

Mr. Russell. Did you have any instructions to contact any par- 
ticular person in California? 

Mr. Babin. No. I only contacted persons like Mr. Budanovich at 
San Pedro, the Spiveloz brothers, Nick Bez, and those guys, 

Mr. Russell, Nick who? 

Mr. Babin. Nick Bez. 

Mr. Russell. B-e-z? 

Mr. Babin. Yes. 

Mr. Russell. Did you ever discuss the problem of Communist 
organization among Yugoslav seamen with Steve Nelson and Harry 
Justiz? 

Mr. Babin. Never. 

Mr. Russell. Didn't you discuss the problem of Communist or- 
ganization among Yugoslav seamen with Steve Nelson and Harry 
Justiz in November 1945? 

Mr. Babin. Never. Nobody attended those meetings but Yugo- 
slav seamen. 



HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 165 

Mr. Russell. Did you ever meet with Steve Nelson and Harry 
Justiz at the Yugoslav Seamen's Club? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. Did you ever meet with Harry Justiz? 

Mr. Babin. Harry Justiz I met two or three times a week. 

Mr. Russell. Steve Nelson was not there? 

Mr. Babin. Steve Nelson was not there. 

Mr. Russell. Didn't j-ou meet with Steve Nelson and Harry 
Justiz on January 11, 1946, at a meeting of the Yugoslav Seamen's 
Club? 

Mr. Babin. No. Nobody attended our meetings, as far as I know, 
but Yugoslav seamen. 

Mr. Russell. Didn't Steve Nelson request you on one occasion to 
obtain a translation of the constitution and speech of Georgi Dimitrov? 

Mr. Babin. Never. 

Mr. Russell. Did you ever meet Steve Nelson in the company of 
George Pirinsky? 

Mr. Babin. No; never. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know Leo Fisher? 

Mr. Babin. I know^ him. 

Mr. Russell. How do you know him? 

Mr. Babin. I was speaking in New York during the war. I spoke 
at Pittsburgh for the relief committee. 

Mr. Russell. Yugoslavian Relief Committee? 

Mr. Babin. Yes. I w^as in every city in the United States. 

Mr. Russell. Did you ever discuss Communist Party organization 
with Leo Fisher? 

Mr. Babin. Never, 

Mr. Russell. Did you ever meet with him in New York City? 

Mr. Babin. I met him during the relief campaign. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know Matthew Cvetic? 

Mr. Babin. I don't know that name. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know Leo Bacich? 

Mr. Babin. I know him. 

Mr. Russell. How do you know him? 

Mr. Babin. As secretary of an organization I belong to. 

Mr. Russell. Did you ever discuss Communist Party organization 
with him? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Russell. Do you know Peter Vukcevich? 

Mr. Babin. I know him. 

Mr. Russell. How do you know him? 

Mr. Babin. He is a member of Yugoslav-American Home, and was 
secretary for the relief during the war. 

Mr. Russell. Did you ever attend a meeting at the Hotel Lincoln 
with any of the following persons: Peter Vukcevich, Leo Babich, 
Harry Justiz, George Pirinsky, Anthony Gerlach, Leo Fisher, Matthew 
Cvetic, Daisy Lolich, and certain other individuals? 

Mr. Babin. Never. I never attend such a meeting. 

Mr. Russell. You never attended a meeting at the Hotel Lincoln 
on June 21, 1947? 

Mr. Babin. Never. 

Mr. Russell. The meeting was held in room 308 and the room was 
'eserved in your name. 



166 HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 

Mr. Babin. I never attended the meeting. 

Mr. Russell. Did you ever make a reservation at the Hotel 
Lincohi? 

Mr. Babin. Never. 

Mr. Russell. You deny that affirmatively? 

Mr. Babin. Sure I do for the meeting. \Vliat kind of meeting? 

Mr. Russell. Did you register at the Hotel Lincoln? 

Mr. Babin. I registered what? 

Mr. Russell. Did you register as a guest at the Hotel Lincoln for 
room 308? 

Mr. Babin. I don't remember. I know nothing about that 
meeting. 

Mr. Walter. What was that answer? 

(The answer was read by the reporter.) 

Mr. Wood. The question asked was, Did you register as a guest at 
Hotel Lincoln? 

Mr. Babin. Never. 

Mr. Wood. And they assigned you a room? 

Mr. Babin. Never. 

Mr. Case. Of course the witness has said "never," but I wonder if 
there shouldn't be some suggestion of the year or time. 

Mr. Russell. The meeting was held June 21, 1947. 

Mr. Wood. At any time on or around June 21, 1947, did you 
register at the Lincoln Hotel for a room? 

Mr. Babin. No. I don't remember the date or anything like that. 

Mr. Case. In what city is the Lincoln Hotel? 

Mr. Russell. New York City. 

Mr. Wood. The question is: Did you register for a room at that 
time? 

Mr. Babin. No. Why should I register for a room? I never was 
there. 

Mr. Wood. You never were there? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Wood. You never did go to that hotel and sign you name as a 
guest? 

Mr. Babin. No. 

Mr. Wood. You never have? 

Mr. Babin. Never. 

Mr. Case. Where were you in June 1947? 

Mr. Babin. I don't know. I was in New York or somewhere else. 
I don't remember. 

Mr. Case. Did you ever stop at the Hotel Lincoln? 

Mr. Babin. No. I never was there. I passed by the Hotel 
Lincoln a hundred times but I never registered here, never. 

Mr. Case. You never stopped there? 

Mr. Babin. Never. 

Mr. Case. You never took a room there, even for part of a day? 

Mr. Babin. Never. I never was there, never. 

Mr. Russell. In other words, you have never made a reservation 
for a room at the Hotel Lincoln for anyone? 

Mr. Babin. Never. 

Mr. Russell. You have never made a reservation for a room atj 
the Hotel Lincoln under your own name at any time? 

Mr. Babin. No, never. 



/ 



\ 



HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 167 

Mr. Russell. Did you ever authorize anyone to make a room 
reservation for you at the Hotel Lincohi? 

Mr. Babin. Never. 

Mr. Russell. You deny that you made one for a meeting which 
was to take place in room 308 at Hotel Lincoln on June 21, 1947? 

Mr. Babin. That, to me, is absolutely — I don't laiow what to say 
about it. I never was there, never attended no meeting and never 
was registered there. 

Mr. Russell. Did you ever attend a meeting at the Hotel Lincoln 
which was addressed by Dr. Slavko Zore? 

Mr. Babin. Never. 

Mr. Russell. Have you ever requested information regarding the 
production of war materials manufactm-ed in factories in Pittsbureih? 

Mr. Babin. That is a big joke too. 

Mr. Russell. What is the answer? 

Mr. Babin. Never. What do you mean? It is a question that is 
simply — ^I would not even talk about such a question. 

Mr. Russell. What is yom* answer to the question? 

Mr. Babin. Never; never; not to nobody, nothing. 

Mr. Russell. In other words, the answer is "No"? 

Mr. Babin. No; definitely. 

Mr. Russell. Mr. Chairman, I suggest the witness be excused for 
about 10 minutes while the committee goes into executive session. 

Mr. Wood. Very well. Will you remain outside until called, 
please? 

Mr, FoRER. We will be in the hall. 
.' Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Attorney, you can bring your client in this 
room (indicating room next to hearing room) where you will have a 
seat. 

IVIr. FoRER. That is much better, thank you. 

(Thereupon, the witness and his counsel left the hearing room and 
the committee went into executive session, which executive session 
was not reported. At 12:40 p. m. an adjournment was taken until 
Wesnesday, June 8, 1949, at 10:30 a. m.) 



HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 



WEDNESDAY, JULY 6, 1949 

United States House of Representatives, 

Subcommittee of the Committee on 

Un-American Activities, 

Washington, D. C. 

A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met 
pm-suant to call at 10:30 a. m., in room 226, Old House Office Building, 
Hon. John S. Wood (chairman) presiding. 

Subcommittee members present: Representatives John S. Wood 
(chairman), Francis E. Walter, Francis Case, and Harold H. Velde. 

Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; Louis J. 
Russell, senior investigator; Charles E. McKillips, investigator; and 
A. S. Poore, editor. 

Mr. Wood. Let the record show that the chairman has appointed 
a subcommittee consisting of Mr. Walter, Mr. Case, Mr. Velde, and 
Mr. Wood, and that they are all present. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, on May 27, 1949, the committee 
heard in executive session one Toma Babin, who was formerly an 
accredited official of the Yugoslav Government in the United States 
and attached to the Yugoslav consulate in New York City. Mr. 
Babin at present is the subject of deportation proceedings inaugurated 
by the Immigration and Naturalization Service of the Department of 
Justice. These proceedings were initiated shortly after Mr. Babin's 
appearance before the committee. 

At the time Mr. Babin appeared before the committee, he was ques- 
tioned regarding his Communist associations and participation during 
his stay in the United States, starting with his illegal entry in 1926. 
JVIr. Babin was questioned particularly regarding a meeting held in 
the Hotel Lincoln at Forty-fourth and Forty-fifth Streets and Eighth 
Avenue in New York City on June 21, 1947, which was attended by 
Steve Nelson, who has been before this committee on numerous occa- 
sions, and certain other persons who have been the subjects of investi- 
gation by this committee. 

According to a report which the committee received regarding this 
meeting, its purpose was to discuss the American Slav Congress and 
the Croatian Fraternal Union, both of which organizations were the 
subject of quite a bit of material in a recent report issued by the com- 
mittee entitled "Report on the American Slav Congress." 

When Mr. Babin was questioned regarding the meeting in the Hotel 
Lincoln, he denied he had ever attended a meeting in the Hotel Lincoln, 
and when questioned further he denied he had ever registered at the 
Hotel Lincoln or given anybody permission to register in his name at 
the Hotel Lincoln. 

169 



170 HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 

Subsequent to his interrogation, the staff of this committee has 
been able to obtain a Hotel Lincoln registration card made out in the 
name of T. Babin for room 308 at the rate of $10 per day. After 
receipt of the registration card, certain known specimens of the hand- 
writing of Toma Babin obtained from the Immigration and Natural- 
ization Service were submitted to the Veterans' Administration, along 
with the registration card of the Hotel Lincoln, for handwriting com- 
parisons. 

I would like at this time to introduce in evidence the Hotel Lincoln 
registration card and have it marked Exhibit Q-1. 

Mr. Wood. So ordered. 

(The card above referred to, marked "Exhibit Q-1," is included at 
the end of this hearing.) 

Mr. Tavenner. I also desire to offer in evidence certain alleged 
specimens of the loiown handwriting of Toma Babin, marked Exhibits 
K-1, K-2, K-3, and K-4, respectively. 

Mr. Wood. So ordered. 

(The documents above referred to, marked "Exhibit K-1," "Ex- 
hibit K-2," "Exhibit K-3," and "Exhibit K-4," are included at the 
end of this hearmg.) 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. McKillips. 

Mr. Wood. You solemnly swear the testimony you will give the 
subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 
truth, so help you God? 

Mr. AlcKiLLiPS. I do. 

SWORN TESTIMONY OF CHARLES McKILLIPS 

Mr. Tavenner. What is your name? 

Mr. McKillips. Charles McKillips. 

Mr. Tavenner. Wliat is your present occupation? 

Mr. McKillips. Investigator for the Un-American Activities 
Committee. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been an investigator for this 
committee? 

Mr. McKillips. Approximately 1 year. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. McKillips, will you examine exhibits Q-1 
and K-1, K-2, K-3, and K-4 and state where you obtained them, if 
you did so? 

Mr. McKillips. I obtained these from the Immigration and 
Naturalization Service at Nineteenth Street and East Capitol Street 
NE. [Washington, D. C.]. Miss Snyder gave me Mr. Babin's file. I 
picked out five or six pages which contained the better specimens of 
his handwriting, and I asked her to have them photographed, which 
she did in about 2 days and sent them to this office, and I then took 
them to the Veterans' Administration office and had them examined. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state whether or not you obtained, for 
use by this committee, the original Hotel Lincoln registration card. 

Mr. McKillips. Yes. I went to New York and got the original 
registration card from the assistant manager of the Lincoln Hotel. 

Mr. Tavenner. That is all. 

Mr. Wood. Any questions? 

(No response.) 

(Witness excused.) 



HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 171 

Mr. Tavenner. I now desire to call Mr. Fry as a witness. 

Mr. Wood. Mr. Fry, do you solemnly swear the evidence you will 
give this subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Fry. Yes;Ido^ 

Mr. Wood. Have a seat. 

SWORN TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR W. FRY 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you state your name? 

Mr. Fry. Arthur W. Fry. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where do you live? 

Mr. Fry. Silver Spring, Md. 

Mr. Tavenner. Where are you employed? 

Air. Fry. In the Veterans' Administration central office, Washing- 
ton, D. C. 

Mr. Tavenner. ^Vhat is your title and what are your duties in the 
United States Veterans' Administration? 

Mr. Fry. My title is Assistant Chief of the Identification and Detec- 
tion Division. My duties are to examine documents in which the 
Veterans' Administration is interested when a question arises as to 
the genuineness of a document or the identity of any of its parts. 
This involves the examination of handwritten, typewritten, and 
printed documents, inks, and questioned documents of various kinds. 

Mr. Tavenner. What preparation have you made in connection 
with your profession? 

Mr. Fry. I have read and studied various books dealing with 
questioned documents, and while employed at the First National Bank 
for 15 years I had special experience in questioned document work. 
I have been trained and qualified by several questioned document 
examiners, and while engaged in the Protective Research Section at the 
White House I worked with other qualified examiners, and it was my 
duty to examine questioned documents of the President of the United 
States and render opinions on same. 

Mr. Tavenner. You said you were employed 15 years by the First 
National Banlv. Will you indicate which First National Bank that 
was? 

Mr. Fry. The First National Bank at Spokane, Wash. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been employed in the Division 
of Questioned Documents in the Veterans' Administration? 

Mr. Fry. For approximately 3 years. 

Mr, Tavenner. Will you relate your positions previous to becom- 
ing employed by the Veterans' Administration? 

Mr. Fry. After finishing school I was employed by the First 
National Bank at Spokane for approximately 15 years. I entered 
the Federal service in May 1941 as an agent for the United States 
Secret Service, and was later transferred to the Protective Research 
Section at the White House. 

Mr. Tavenner. How long have you been engaged in this work? 

Mr. Fry. Approximately 20 years. 

Mr. Tavenner. How much of your time is spent in this work? 

Mr. Fry. All of my time. 

Mr. Tavenner. Have you rendered conclusions on questioned docu- 
ment problems? 



172 HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 

Mr. Fry. Yes, I have, in more than 8,000 cases, which involved 
many more times that number of documents. 

Mr. Tavenner, Did you assist in the examination of the questioned 
document in this matter? 

Mr. Fry. Yes, I did. I conducted a separate and distinct examina- 
tion of my own with respect to these documents which have just been 
entered in evidence, exhibits Q-1 and K-1 through K-4. 

Mr. Tavenner. I hand you an office memorandum signed by H. J. 
E. Gesell, Chief, Identification and Detection Division, directed to the 
Director, Inspection-Investigation Service, bearing date June 10, 1949, 
and I will ask you whether you participated in the preparation of that 
report on this questioned document? 

Mr. Fry. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you read it to the committee? 

Mr. Fry. This is a memorandum dated June 10, 1949, addressed to 
the Director, Inspection-Investigation Service, from the Chief, Iden- 
tification and Detection Division. Subject: Comparison of hand- 
writing re T. Babin. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you read it? 

Mr. Fry (reading): 

1. On this date, Mr. C. E. McKillips, investigator for the Un-American Activi- 
ties Committee, personally and informally submitted a hotel registration card on 
the Hotel Lincoln, New York City, F 19863, bearing name and address "T. Babin, 
219 W. 19 St. N. Y. C," also bearing firm's name — Shipping ofice. (Spelled with 
one "f".) There, also, was submitted photographic copies of purported known 
signatures and writing of Thomas ^ Babin appearing on exhibits identified as K-1, 
K-2, K-3, K-4, and K-5. K-5 contains the purported known signature of Tomas 
Babin appearing on letter dated May 27, 1949. 

2. It was requested that the purported known signatures of Toma Babin, 
K-1 through K-5, be examined and compared with the questioned signature and 
writing appearing on the Hotel Lincoln registration card identified as Q-1 to 
determine authorship. 

3. The signatures and writings afore-mentioned were carefully examined and 
compared and such a study has resulted in the conclusion that the person who 
wrote the names "Thomas Babin" and other writings appearing on exhibits K-1 
K-2, K-3, K-4, and K-5 also is responsible for the pen-and-ink writing "T. 
Babin," 219 W. 19 St. N. Y. C— Shipping ofice (spelled with one "f"), appearing 
on the Hotel Lincoln registration card of New York City bearing No. F 19863, 
also identified as Q-1. 

4. In the event testimony is desired concerning the conclusion reached in this 
report, it will be necessary to return exhibits K-1, K-2, K-3, K-4, and K-5 for 
the preparation of photographic exhibits at least a week or 10 days before trial 
or hearing date. 

H. J. E. Gesell. 

Mr. Tavenner. Do you unite in the conclusions expressed in that 
report? 

Mr, Fry. I do concur in the opinion given in this memorandum. 

Mr. Tavenner. Are you of the opinion, and did you arrive at the 
independent conclusion, that the person who signed the questioned 
document, exhibit Q-1 , was the same person who signed the documents 
K-1 through K-5, inclusive? 

Mr. Fry. Yes, sir. I made an independent examination and came 
to that conclusion. 

(Mr. McSweeney, member of the full committee, enters.) 

Mr. Tavenner. That is all. 

Mr. Wood. Any questions? 

2 The name spelled variously Thomas, Tomas, Toma, Tom, T. Babin all|tl^ subject of hearing and 
the same person. 



HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 173 

Mr. Case. I have a question. 

Mr. Wood. Mr. Case. 

Mr. Case. Mr. Fry, you were present and seated at the table 
where you are now seated when the documents were first presented in 
evidence this morning? 

Mr. Fry. Yes, su\ 
. Mr. Case. And you saw them presented in evidence? 

Mr. Fry. Yes; just across the table, and I noticed K-5 was omitted 
in that group. 

Mr. Tavenner. I had proposed to introduce that later, but for the 
purpose of your identification of that letter I now hand you a letter 
dated May 27, 1949, dii'ected to Mr. Frank Tavenner, over the signa- 
ture of Toma Babin. Is that the document K-5 to which you have 
referred? 

Mr. Fry. Yes, sir; it is. 

Mr. Tavenner. Will you examine the documents introduced in 
evidence as exhibits Q-1 and K-1 thi'ough K-4, inclusive, and state 
whether or not they are the documents to which you referred? 

Mr. Fry (after examining said documents). Yes, sir, they are. 

Mr. Wood. Let's see K-5. 

(Exhibit K-5 was handed to Mr. Wood.) 

Mr. Wood. Any further questions, Mr. Case? 

Mr. Case. No. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chairman, I would like at this time to insert 
in the record this letter, K-5, dated May 27, 1949, addressed to me 
as counsel of the committee, signed by Toma Babin. You will recall 
at the time Air. Babin was questioned he testified that he met Steve 
Nelson in Spain, but stated that he had not seen him since his retm^n 
from Spain to the United States. In this letter Mr. Babin states that 
he did see Steve Nelson several times in the United States, and states 
that he made an inadvertent error in the testimony which he gave 
before the committee regarding Steve Nelson and it is his desire that 
this be incorporated in the record. Therefore, I offer it in evidence, 
and, inasmuch as it was used as an exhibit with regard to the hand- 
writing, ask that it be marked Exhibit "K-5." 

Mr. Wood. It will be admitted. 

(The letter above referred to, marked "Exhibit K-5", is hereinafter 
incorporated in the record.) 

Mr. Tavenner. And I think I should read it into the record: 

Washington, D. C, May 27, 1949. 
Mr. Frank Tavenner, 

Counsel, House Committee on Un-American Activities, 
House Office Building, Washington, D. C. 

Dear Mr. Taa^enner: I wish to correct an inadvertent error in the testimony 
I gave earlier today before the committee. I tried to make this correction before 
the committee, but they adjourned after what they had announced as a 10-minute 
recess. I did tell Mr. Russell and Mr. Appell about it, and they told me that 
the members of the committee had gone to the floor of the House. 

The correction regards my acquaintance with Steve Nelson. As I testified 
before the committee, I first met Nelson in Spain. However, I have also met 
him several times in the United States since my return from Spain. I do not 
recall the times or occasions except that several times it was at reunions of the 
Abraham Lincoln Brigade, and once at the restaurant in the Yugoslav-American 
Home. I do not recall the substance of our conversations, which were brief and 
consisted of small talk. 



174 HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 

Please put this correction in the record of the hearing. Since I am still under 
the committee's subpena, naturally, if the committee thinks the correction is of 
consequence it can be made before it. 
Yours truly, 

ToMA Babin. 

Mr. Tavenner. Mr. Chaii-maii, in view of the fact that Babin's 
testimony regarding the Hotel Lincoln registration furnishes the 
basis for investigation of a charge of perjury before this committee, 
I suggest that this committee, in executive session, consider that 
matter and consider whether it wishes to refer this matter to the 
Department of Justice for investigation and appropriate action, but 
I would suggest that you defer going into executive session until the 
close of this hearing. 

Mr. Walter. May 1 ask a question of this witness? 

Mr. Wood. Mr. Walter. 

Mr. Walter. Are you positive that the signature on the letter 
just read is the signatiu"e of the person who signed the register in 
New York City? 

Mr. Fry. I am positive in my opinion, sir. The signature on the 
letter K-5 was given to me as a known signature of Mr. Babin. In 
other words, that is not a questioned document as far as 1 am con- 
cerned. That does contain what is purported to be a known signature. 

Mr. Walter. You are positiv3 that the same person who signed 
that letter signed the register in New York? 

Mr. Fry. Yes, sir, I am positive in my opinion in that respect. 

Mr. Walter. That is all. 

Mr. Wood. Any further questions, gentlemen? 

(No response.) 

Mr. Wood. You may be excused. 

Mr. Fry. Thank you. 

(Witness excused.) 

Whereupon the proceedings continued, but on another subject. 
The testimony of the witnesses that followed will be found in a 
separate document under same date. 




HEARINGS REGARDING TOMA BABIN 



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