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Full text of "Interlocking subversion in Government Departments. Hearing before the Subcommittee to Investigate the Administration of the Internal Security Act and Other Internal Security Laws of the Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, Eighty-third Congress, second session,first session]"



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INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN 
GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS 



HEARING 



BEFORE THE 



SUBCOMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE 

ADMINISTRATION OF THE INTERNAL SECURITY 

ACT AND OTHER INTERNAL SECURITY LAWS 

OF THE 

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS 

FIRST SESSION 

ON 

INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

DEPARTMENTS 



JUNE 12, 1G, 18, AND 23, 1953 



PART 12 



Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary 




UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
32918° WASHINGTON : 1953 



Boston Public Library 
Superintendent of Documents 

FEB 2 3 1354 



COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY 
WILLIAM LANGER, North Dakota, Chairman 

ALEXANDER WILEY, Wisconsin PAT McCARRAN. Nevada 

WILLIAM E. .TENNER, Indiana HARLEY M. KILGORE. West Virginia 

ARTHUR V. WATKINS, Utah JAMES O. EASTLAND, Mississippi 

ROBERT C. HENDRICKSON, New Jersey ESTES KEUAUVER, Tennessee 

EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois WILLIS SMITH, North Carolina 

HERMAN WELKER, Idaho OLIN D. JOHNSTON. South Carolina 

JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland THOMAS C. HENNINGS, Jr., Missouri 



Subcommittee To Investigate the Administration of the Internal Security 
Act and Other Internal Security Laws 

WILLIAM E. JENNER, Indiana, Chairman 
ARTHUR V. WATKINS. Utah PAT McCARRAN, Nevada 

ROBERT C. HENDRICKSON, New Jersey JAMES O. EASTLAND, Mississippi 

HERMAN WELKER, Idaho WILLIS SMITH, North Carolina 

JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland OLIN D. JOHNSTON, South Carolina 

Robert Morris, Chief Counsel 
Benjamin Mandel, Director of Research 



CONTENTS 



Testimony of — Page 

Barrows, Alice Prentice, June 23, 1953 823-840 

Carson, Saul, June 16, 1953 792-797 

Fajans, Irving, June 16, 1953 787-792 

Marzani, Carl Aldo, June 18, 1953 799-822 

Porter, Margaret B., June 12, 1953 725-745 

Tenney, Helen B., June 16, 1953 772-786 

Vincent, Craig S., June 12, 1953 745-764 

Wolff, Milton, June 16, 1953 765-772 

in 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 
DEPARTMENTS 



FRIDAY, JUNE 12, 1953 

United States Senate, 
Subcommittee To Investigate the Administration 

of the Internal Security Act and Other Internal 

Security Laws of the Committee on the Judiciary, 

Washington, D. C. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 2 : 25 p. m., in the Old 
Supreme Court Room, the Capitol, Senator William E. Jenner 
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding. 

Present : Senator Jenner. 

Also present: Robert Morris, subcommittee counsel. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Chairman, on Thursday, May 28, 1953, Senator 
McCarran, with Mr. Sourwine as his counsel, held executive hearings 
in the chambers of courtroom 9, the Federal Building in Los Angeles. 
There were 3 witnesses heard in executive session on that date, and I 
would like to offer for the record the executive session testimony of 2 
of these witnesses; namely, Craig S. Vincent and Margaret Bennett 
Porter. 

Mrs. Porter lived at 515 Ridgewood Lane, in Pasadena, Calif., and 
Craig Vincent is of the San Cristobal Valley Ranch, San Cristobal, 
N. Mex. 

Both of these witnesses had been employees of the United States 
Government, and their testimony is related to the present inquiry 
this subcommittee is undertaking to determine the extent of Commu- 
nist infiltration of Government. 

The Chairman. It will go into our record and now become an open 
record, of the two witnesses referred to in the hearings held in 
California. 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Chairman, there has been a resolution passed by 
the subcommittee authorizing this action today. 

The Chairman. All right. It will go into the record and become 
a part of the record. 

(The testimony referred to follows:) 

Internal Security Subcommittee of 
the Senate Committee on the Judiciary, 

Los Angeles, Calif., May 28, 1953. 

EXECUTIVE SESSION 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 9 : 30 a. m., in the 
chambers of courtroom 9, Federal Building, Senator Pat McCarran 
presiding. 

725 



726 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Present : J. G. Sourwine, associate counsel. 

Senator McCarran. You may rise and be sworn. 

Mrs. Rosenberg. I would like to make a motion. 

Senator McCarran. There isn't any motion to be made here. 

Mrs. Rosenberg. May I make an inquiry then? May I know who 
is holding the hearings, so we can ascertain before whom we are 
appearing this morning? 

Senator McCarran. You are appearing before the Committee of the 
Judiciary of the United States Senate. 

Mrs. Rosenberg. I take it, sir, you are the representative of that or 
a member of the Sub- Judiciary Committee ? 

Senator McCarran. I am. 

Mrs. Rosenberg. We simply want to know whom we are addressing. 

Senator McCarran. This is the Subcommittee on Internal Security 
of the Judiciary Committee of the United States Senate. 

Mrs. Rosenberg. And you are a Senator of that committee. We 
just want to know for the purposes of identification. 

Senator McCarran. If I weren't, I wouldn't be here. 

Mrs. Rosenberg. I understand. I am simply asking what your 
name is and whether or not you are a member of that committee. 

Senator McCarran. Yes. 

Mrs. Rosenberg. May I expect a reply to that? I say, you are, I 
take it, a member of that committee, and I am inquiring as to who you 
are, what Senator you are ? 

Senator McCarran. I am United States Senator McCarran of 
Nevada. 

Mrs. Rosenberg. I would like at this time to make a motion for a 
continuance 

Senator McCarran. There is no motion to be made. The witness 
has been subpenaed here. She is here to testify. 

Mrs. Rosenberg. I would like the record to show, at least for the 
record, Mr. McCarran, that the subpenaed was served with the sub- 
pena on Saturday and that on Wednesday, which was yesterday, she 
ascertained for the first time the area with respect to which there would 
be interrogation. That because of that she was and is now not prop- 
erly prepared to answer questions. That she, as a matter of fact, did 
not have adequate time to consult with counsel that you have before 
you, Mr. McCarran, and she is a subpenaed who is not prepared. We 
consider that a denial of due process, and on those grounds, Mr. Mc- 
Carran, we ask for a continuance. 

Senator McCarran. I am sorry. We can't grant you the continu- 
ance because the committee will not be here after tomorrow. 

Mrs. Rosenberg. I see. 

Senator McCarran. We will just have to proceed. 

Mrs. Rosenberg. May I make a further request? I understand 
from the telegram which the subpenaed received this investigation is 
being conducted under Senate resolutions of a certain number, which 
were indicated in the telegram. 

May we be presented with a copy of such resolution so that we may 
know under what resolution the hearing is being conducted? 

Senator McCarran. At the proper time, yes. 

Mrs. Rosenberg. You do not consider this to be the proper time? 

Senator McCarran. You may rise and be sworn. 

Mrs. Porter. I would like to say I think this is the proper time. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 727 

Senator McCarkan. I said rise and be sworn. 

Mrs. Porter. Just a moment. 

Senator McCarran. There will be no controversy here. Your 
counsel has presented the request and that is all there will be to it. 

Mrs. Porter. I am to testify under some authority, and I am en- 
titled to know the authority. 

Senator McCarran. You are under subpena, lady. You replied to 
the subpena. You are here now. If you want to take the conse- 
quences, you will have to do so, on the advice of your counsel. I am 
not going to give you any advice. 

Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Chairman, if I may interpose, were you served 
with a subpena or did you receive telegraphic notification? 

Mrs. Porter. I was served with a subpena and I immediately — 
which did not detail the purposes — I immediately wired the committee 
asking for information as to the scope, the resolution, what they 
intended to investigate. I didn't receive any answer until yesterday 
afternoon. 

Mr. Sourwine. You are here under a subpena. 

Mrs. Porter. Yes; I am. 

Senator McCarran. Will you rise and be sworn ? 

You do solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before 
the Internal Security Committee of the Committee on the Judiciary 
of the United States Senate will be the truth, the whole truth, and 
nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mrs. Porter. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF MARGARET B. BENNETT PORTER, PASADENA, CALIF. 

Senator McCarran. State your name and place of residence and 
your business or occupation. 

Mrs. Porter. Margaret B. Porter. 

Senator McCarran. Your place of residence ? 

Mrs. Porter. 515 Ridgewood Lane, Pasadena. 

Senator McCarran. And your business or profession ? 

Mrs. Porter. Housewife. 

Senator McCarran. You may proceed, Mr. Sourwine. 

Mr. Sourwine. I would like to have counsel identified before I 
question the witness. 

Senator McCarran. Yes. 

Mrs. Rosenberg. My name is Rose S. Rosenberg. 

Senator McCarran. Are you a member of the bar of the State 
of California? 

Mrs. Rosenberg. I am. 

Senator McCarran. Since when? 

Mrs. Rosenberg. I was admitted to this bar in this State, my best 
recollection is 1948. 

Mr. Branton. My name is Leo Branton, Jr. 

Senator McCarran. The lady first. 

You were first admitted where to the bar ? 

Mrs. Rosenberg. I was first admitted to the Pennsylvania bar, my 
best recollection is 1940. 

Senator McCarran. How did you come to be admitted to the bar of 
California? 

Mrs. Rosenberg. I passed the bar examination here when I came 
here, and was properly admitted. 



728 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Senator McCarran. You were not admitted on comity? 

Mrs. Rosenberg. I understand there is no comity between the two 
States. 

Senator McCarran. Where is your office or place of business? 

Mrs. Rosenberg. My office, as indicated on the card before you, Mr. 
McCarran, is 3224 Brooklyn Avenue, Los Angeles. 

Senator McCarran. How long have you been in the practice of the 
law here? 

Mrs. Rosenberg. Since the time of my admission, which I stated 
before ; my best recollection is 1948. 

Senator McCarran. Very well. And your name is? 

Mr. Branton. Leo Branton, Jr. ; B-r-a-n-t-o-n. I have an office at 
112 West Ninth Street, Los Angeles. 

Senator McCarran. When did you become a member of the bar of 
California ? 

Mr. Branton. 1949, 1 believe. 

Senator McCarran. By examination ? 

Mr. Branton. Correct. 

Senator McCarran. Very well. You may proceed, Mr. Sourwine. 

You both represent the witness here ? 

Mr. Branton. Yes ; we both represent her. 

Senator McCarran. Mr. Sourwine, advise counsel as to their posi- 
tion here, what they can do and what they can't. 

Mr. Sourwine. The witness is free to consult counsel at all times. 
Counsel have been requested to refrain from prompting the witness. 
If there is colloquy between counsel and the witness, it should not be 
audible on the record. We don't want to get any colloquy between 
witness and counsel on this record. 

Mrs. Rosenberg. Neither do we. 

Mr. Branton. May I have your name? 

Mr. Sourwine. My name is Sourwine; S-o-u-r-w-i-n-e. 

How do you spell your surname at the present time ? 

Mrs. Porter. P-o-r-t-e-r. 

Mr. Sourwine. You are the person who was formerly known as 
Margaret Bennett ? 

Mrs. Porter. Yes. 

Mr. Sourwine. I imagine the change is due to marriage ? 

Mrs. Porter. That is correct. 

Mr. Sourwine. Were you at one time employed in the Federal 
Government, Mrs. Porter ? 

Mrs. Porter. I was. 

Mr. Sourwine. You will have to excuse me if I call you Mrs. Ben- 
nett by mistake. I will apologize. I will not do it intentionally. 

Mrs. Porter, when did you first go to work for the Federal Govern- 
ment ? 

Mrs. Porter. That was many years ago and I do not have a clear 
recollection, but apparently you have the records ; possibly you have 
the dates there. 

Mr. Sourwine. I have some records. Are you employed by the 
Federal Government at the present time ? 

Mrs. Porter. As I stated to the Senator, I am a housewife. 

Senator McCarran. You are not, I take it, employed by the Federal 
Government at this time? 

Mrs. Porter. No ; I am not employed at all. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 729 

Mr. Sourwine. Were you ever employed with the United States 
Department of Agriculture ? 

Mrs. Porter. Yes; I was. 

Mr. Sourwine. In what capacity ? 

Mrs. Porter. As an attorney. 

Mr. Sourwine. Of what States are you a member of the bar ? 

Mrs. Porter. I am a member of the bar of the State of Illinois and 
the State of Colorado. 

Mr. Sourwine. Where did you get your legal education? 

Mrs. Porter. At Columbia University. 

Mr. Sourwine. Your degree is from Columbia ? 

Mrs. Porter. Legal degree, yes, naturally. 

Mr. Sourwine. You have an A. B. ? 

Mrs. Porter. Yes. 

Mr. Sourwine. From? 

Mrs. Porter. Vassar College. 

Mr. Sourwine. When did you get that, Mrs. Porter? 

Mrs. Porter. Which? 

Mr. Sourwine. The A. B. 

Mrs. Porter. 1925. 

Mr. Sourwine. When did you get your degree at Columbia? 

Mrs. Porter. 1932. 

Mr. Sourwine. Did you go directly into the employment of the 
Federal Government after you graduated ? 

Mrs. Porter. No, I didn't. 

Mr. Sourwine. Did you practice law after you graduated from 
law school? 

Mrs. Porter. I didn't practice law. I was employed by an attor- 
ney in Chicago on special work. 

Mr. Sourwine. Did you ever practice law anywhere? 

Mrs. Porter. Yes, in Denver, Colo. 

Mr. Sourwine. Colorado is one of the States where you are ad- 
mitted to the practice? 

Mrs. Porter. Naturally. 

Mr. Sourwine. When did you practice in Denver? 

Mrs. Porter. As I say, I am very hazy about the dates, but it was 
after I left the employment of the Government that I practiced there. 

Mr. Sourwine. You were employed in Chicago after you left law 
school ? 

Mrs. Porter. Yes, by an attorney. 

Mr. Sourwine. Who was that ? 

Mrs. Porter. His name was Arthur Fisher. 

Mr. Sourwine. Did you go from that employment to Washington 
for employment with the Government or was there any intervening 
employment? 

Mrs. Porter. I looked around for employment. As I recall — 
which may not be completely accurate — the first job I actually got, 
my first legal job I got after that was with the Government, but I am 
very vague. That was about 20 years ago, as I recall, and I am not 
clear on what happened 20 years ago. But you probably have those 
records. 

Mr. Sourwine. Were you ever employed as a secretary ? 

Mrs. Porter. I was employed as a legal secretary or confidential 
secretary, but never as a stenographer-secretary. 



730 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Mr. Sourwine. Where was that? 

Mrs. Porter. That was with the — let's see. I am not exactly sure 
of the name at that time of the agency. I think it was called the 
Works Progress Administration. 

Mr. Sotjrwine. Did you resign from that employment in Decem- 
ber of 1933? 

Mrs. Porter. Well, as I said, my recollection as to dates is vague. 
I did resign from that employment, I know. And I left there, what 
the date is I couldn't recall. 

Senator McCarran. What would be your best recollection as to the 
year ? 

Mrs. Porter. I won't give you my recollection, Mr. Senator. I 
don't have any. I haven't had a chance to look up anything on this 
subject and I just don't remember. But I do remember that I did 
leave that agency, resigned from that agency. 

Mr. Sourwine. That was a resignation without prejudice? 

Mrs. Porter. Certainly. 

Mr. Sourwine. Voluntary? 

Mrs. Porter. Of course. 

Mr. Sourwine. The record here indicates that you were appointed 
a secretary, you were appointed from Colorado on July 7, 1933, at 
$2,600 per year, in the office of the Federal Emergency Administra- 
tor of Federal Works. Does that accord with any recollection you 
have ? 

Mrs. Porter. I don't have any accurate recollection about this. You 
have the records, I suppose you have the information you desire. 

Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Chairman, I offer for the record a notice of 
appointment to a Miss Margaret B. Bennett, of Colorado, covering the 
appointment for which I have just referred. I offer this to the wit- 
ness and ask her if she recalls ever having received that letter of which 
that is a photostat. 

Mrs. Porter. I have no recollection about that. 

Mr. Sourwine. I offer the letter for the record. It is the best evi- 
dence we have at the moment. 

Senator McCarran. You have no recollection of having received 
this, as I understand it? 

Mrs. Porter. No. As I told you, Senator, my recollection of what 
happened 20 years ago is very vague. All I recall at the moment is 
I was employed by that agency. 

Mr. Sourwine. Did you work for Mr. H. T. Hunt? 

Senator McCarran. It will be inserted in the record. 

(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 245" and is 
as follows:) 

Exhibit No. 245 

United States Department of the Interior, 

Office of the Secretary, 

Washington, July 7, 1933. 
Miss Margaret B. Bennett of Colorado. 

Madam : You have been appointed by the Federal Emergency Administrator 
of Public Works, subject to taking the oath of office, a secretary, in that Admin- 
istration, at $2,600 per annum, effective on the date of entrance on duty. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 731 

Temporary. Under this appointment you are not subject to the provisions of 
the Retirement Act. 
Respectfully, 

Guy W. Numbers, 
(For the Federal Emergency Administrator of Public Works). 
Order No. 6-PW. 
Noted on record card by (dw) Appt. Div. 

Mr. Branton. I didn't get that name. 

Mrs. Rosenberg. I didn't, either. Could we have that repeated? 

Mr. Sourwine. Did you get the name ? 

Mrs. Porter. Would you kindly repeat it? 

Mr. Sourwine. H. T. Hunt. 

Mrs. Porter. Mr. H. T. Hunt was the General Counsel of that 
agency at that time, and I was under his jurisdiction. 

Mr. Sourwine. I asked you if you worked for him. 

Mrs. Porter. I worked under him in that agency. 

Mr. Sourwine. You were his secretary ? 

Mrs. Porter. I was his secretary. 

Mr. Sourwine. What were your duties in that position ? 

Mrs. Porter. Well, actually, I am trying to think what my duties 
were. Perhaps you have the job description there. I don't quite 
remember what all my duties were. 

Mr. Sourwine. Do you remember any of them ? 

Mrs. Porter. I remember I wrote some points of law up at that 
time, but I did not, as I recall, as clearly as I can recall, do any — do 
legal work beyond research. I had some administrative work there, 
but I don't recall just what it was. I was a general assistant in that 
kind of work. I don't recall exactly what I did. 

Mr. Sourwine. Did you make appointments for him, see his 
visitors ? 

Mrs. Porter. Yes, I think I made some appointments for him, but I 
don't think I saw his visitors in my own capacity, so far as I can 
recall. But I am not clear exactly what I did. 

Mr. Sourwine. Who recommended you for the appointment as his 
secretary, do you know ? 

Mrs. Porter. That I don't remember, either. 

Mr. Sourwine. Do you know Nathan Margold? 

Mrs. Porter. I recall having applied to him for a position. 

Mr. Sourwine. Did you know Mr. Margold ? 

Mrs. Porter. Only in that capacity. 

Mr. Sourwine. Do you know whether he recommended you for 
appointment as secretary to Mr. Hunt ? 

Mrs. Porter. I do not recall. 

Mr. Sourwine. Did you ever ask him who recommended you for 
such an appointment? 

Mrs. Porter. Well, I just don't recall. 

Senator McCarran. Where did you first meet Mr. Margold ? 

Mrs. Porter. Well, Senator, in that year there were a lot of lawyers 
looking for a job, and I was looking for a job and he was one of the 
people I applied to. 

Senator McCarran. That is when you first met him ? 

Mrs. Porter. That is when I first met him. That was the year 

Senator McCarran. What year was that? 

Mrs. Porter. That was about 1933, around there. 



732 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Senator McCarran. That is when the Roosevelt administration 
first went in ? 

Mrs. Porter. Somewhere around there. 

Senator McCarran. After the inauguration of President Roosevelt, 
after the 4th of March 1933? 

Mrs. Porter. I don't recall the exact date. 

Senator McCarran. Where did you meet Mr. Margold, do you 
remember? 

Mrs. Porter. I just said I applied to him for a position. 

Senator McCarran. I know, but where did you meet him, if at all ? 

Mrs. Porter. He was in the Department of Interior Building. I am 
not sure now exactly what his capacity was. 

Senator McCarran. You went up there in person and applied? 

Mrs. Porter. I did, yes. 

Senator McCarran. All right. 

Mr. Sourwine. Were you ever instructor in sociology at Colorado 
College? 

Mrs. Porter. Yes. 

Mr. Sourwine. Colorado Springs? 

Mrs. Porter. Yes. 

Mr. Sourwine. For about 1 year ? 

Mrs. Porter. Approximately. You probably have the records there. 
I think it was a little over a year. I think it was a year and a summer, 
a full term and a summer. 

Mr. Sourwine. Did you know Mr. E. K. Burlew ? 

Mrs. Porter. I don't recall the name at the moment. 

Mr. Sourwine. We have a record here which indicates that you left 
your position as secretary to Mr. Hunt effective as of the close of 
business December 18, 1933. Does that accord with your recollec- 
tion ? 

Mrs. Porter. As I just said, I do not have any recollection as to 
those dates. 

Senator McCarran. That would then not be contrary to your recol- 
lection ? 

Mrs. Porter. Mr. Senator, I have no recollection of those dates. 

Senator McCarran. I say that would not be contrary to any recol- 
lection that you have ? 

Mrs. Porter. I have given you my answer. I don't have a recollec- 
tion. 

Mr. Sourwine. You do have some recollection, you know you did 
leave Mr. Hunt's service ? 

Mrs. Porter. I am talking about dates. I have no recollection about 
dates. 

Senator McCarran. He didn't ask you for the date. 

Mrs. Porter. Yes, he did. 

Senator McCarran. You know you left Mr. Hunt. What is the 
use in being captious about it ? 

Mrs. Porter. I testified that I left that agency voluntarily. 

Senator McCarran. Is this information just read to you contrary 
to your recollection ? 

Mrs. Porter. He was reading me a date. 

Senator McCarran. Beg pardon? 

Mrs. Porter. He was reading me a date, did I leave on such and 
such a date. I do not remember the dates. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 733 

Mrs. Rosenberg. Are you going to testify- 



Senator McCarran. AH right. That is all. You are here to 
advise this witness and nothing else. 

Mrs. Rosenberg. May I address 

Senator McCarran. That is all. 
Mrs. Rosenberg. Am I permitted- 



Senator McCarran. That is enough. You are to advise this witness 
and not advise the committee. 

Mrs. Rosenberg. I wasn't — — 

Senator McCarran. It will not be taken down. 

Mrs. Porter. I would like to consult counsel. 

(At this point Mrs. Porter consulted with Mrs. Rosenberg and Mr. 
Branton.) 

Mrs. Porter. I would like to say, Senator, I hope you will with- 
draw that characterization of "captious," because I am answering the 
questions. But I am not testifying as to something I do not recall. 

Senator McCarran. You are not asked to testify to anything you 
don't recall. 

Mrs. Porter. I am not captious. I am answering the questions 
insofar as I recall the answers. 

Senator McCarran. Proceed, Mr. Sourwine. 

Mr. Sourwine. Did you go from the Federal Works Administra- 
tion to the AAA — the Agricultural Adjustment Administration? 

Mrs. Porter. That is my recollection. 

Mr. Sourwine. You had a legal position with that agency? 

Mrs. Porter. Yes. 

Mr. Sourwine. What was the nature of that position ? 

Mrs. Porter. I don't recall the particular job classification. I went 
there as a lawyer. 

Mr. Sourwine. Were you in the Office of General Counsel or were 
you writing regulations or hearing cases? 

Mrs. Porter. I don't recall exactly what I did when I went there, 
but, of course, all the lawyers I knew of were in the Office of the 
General Counsel. That is the setup, that lawyers are in the Office 
of General Counsel. 

Mr. Sourwine. Are you a member of the bar of the State of Cali- 
fornia ? 

Mrs. Porter. No ; I am not. 

Mr. Sourwine. Did you ever apply for membership ? 

Mrs. Porter. Yes. 

Mr. Sourwine. Did you take the bar examination? 

Mrs. Porter. I did ; yes. 

Mr. Sourwine. Did you pass it? 

Mrs. Porter. No ; I didn't. 

Mr. Sourwine. How long, approximately — I don't ask for dates — 
but approximately in years, how long were you employed with the 
Agricultural Adjustment Administration? 

Mrs. Porter. There again I can't trust my recollection, but you 
have the records, so I think you know. I just can't trust my recol- 
lection. 

Mr. Sourwine. Are you telling this committee you don't approxi- 
mately know how many years you were employed ? 



734 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Mrs. Porter. No ; I really don't recall. That was many years ago, 
and I worked in many agencies, and I do not recall the period of time 
that I worked. 

Mr. Sourwine. What are some of the agencies you worked in ? 

Mrs. Porter. Well, I worked for the Wheeler committee, Senator 
AVheeler's Committee on Interstate Commerce. I worked for the 
Labor Kelations Board. I don't remember offhand how many others 
I worked for, if any. 

Mr. Sourwine. You said you worked for many agencies. I won- 
dered what the ones were you had in mind. 

Mrs. Porter. If you want to quibble, perhaps that was an over- 
statement. I worked for more than 1 or 2. 

Senator McCarran. You are under oath, lady. 

Mrs. Porter. Should we look up the word "many" in the dictionary, 
Senator ? 

Senator McCarran. You are under oath. I wouldn't quibble with 
things if I were you. You can get through with this thing very easily. 

Mrs. Porter. You know what agencies I was with; you have the 
records. 

Senator McCarran. We are asking you. If you don't want to an- 
swer, you can take the consequences. We are asking you and we ask 
you to tell the truth. You remember the agencies you worked for. 

Mrs. Porter. I have stated the agencies I remember, Senator. 

Senator McCarran. Proceed, Mr. Sourwine. 

Mr. Sourwine. How did you get your job at the AAA? 

Mrs. Porter. What do you mean, how ? 

Mr. Sourwine. Well, you had a job with the public works section 
under Mr. Hunt. You got a job with the AAA and then you resigned 
under Mr. Hunt. Now, how did you get that job with the AAA? 

Mrs. Porter. May I discuss this with my counsel, please? 

(At this point Mrs. Porter consulted with Mrs. Rosenberg and Mr. 
Branton.) 

Senator McCarran. Read the last question, Miss Reporter ? 

(The question was read.) 

Mrs. Porter. I have been trying to recall. I do not recall the exact 
method by which I got that job. I know I did get it and I know I 
wanted to get it, but I can't, just can't remember the exact method, you 
know ; whether I filed an application — I presume I did, because I pre- 
sume that was the technique. But I don't recall the exact way, al- 
though I do recall that I did resign from public works and I did go to 
that agency. 

Mr. Sourwine. Do you recall the name of anyone who recommended 
you for that job? 

Mrs. Porter. Let's see. Why don't you — you seem 

Senator McCarran. Just a moment. 

Mrs. Porter. I suggest if you would be specific 

Senator McCarran. Do you recall the name of anyone who recom- 
mended you for the j ob ? It is a plain question. 

Mrs. Porter. Well, Senator 

Senator McCarran. It asks for a simple answer. 

Mrs. Porter. Well, Senator, my recollection is very vague. 

Senator McCarran. Read the question. 

Mrs. Porter. I am trying to recall. I am not quite sure what the 
situation was then. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 735 

Senator McCarran. Bead the question again to the Avitness. 

(The question was read.) 

Senator McCarran. Do you recall of anyone who recommended you 
for that job? If you don't recall, all you have to do is say, "I do not 
recall." If you do recall, very well. 

(At this point Mrs. Porter consulted with Mrs. Kosenberg and Mr. 
Branton.) 

Mrs. Porter. Well, Senator, I don't recall who it was that recom- 
mended me for that job. 

Mr. Sourwine. Subsequent to that job with the AAA you were em- 
ployed as associate attorney in the Office of the Solicitor for the De- 
partment of Agriculture; is that right? 

Mrs. Porter. Well, I don't recall that particular job classification, 
but I was working as an attorney with the AAA. 

Mr. Sourwine. Weren't you put on the roll as an associate attorney 
at $3,200 per year in the Office of the Solicitor for the purpose of being 
detailed to the Senate Committee on Education and Labor? 

Mrs. Porter. To be 

Mr. Sourwine. To be detailed to the Senate Committee on Educa- 
tion and Labor. 

Mrs. Porter. Would you kindly read that question ? 

(The question was read.) 

Mrs. Porter. I don't recall whether I was or not. 

Mr. Sourwine. Do you recall being detailed to the Senate Com- 
mittee on Education and Labor? 

Mrs. Porter. I recall having done a research job for the Government 
at one time or another. And I don't recall exactly under what agency, 
so I don't know how to answer that question. I don't recall. 

Mr. Sourwine. Don't you recall working for the Senate Committee 
on Education and Labor at all? 

Mrs. Porter. No. 

Mr. Sourwine. That is all I want to know. 

Mrs. Porter. I do not recall any specific classification. As I say, 
I do recall having done a research job for some agency, and I am 
not quite clear now what the particular classification was. 

Senator McCarran. Did you work for the Committee on Education 
and Labor? 

Mrs. Porter. Senator, I have given my answer. 

Senator McCarran. What is it? 

Mrs. Porter. I have already given my answer 

Senator McCarran. You haven't given an answer to that one. 

Mrs. Porter. I have answered. 

Senator McCarran. Did you work for the Committee on Education 
and Labor of the Senate ? 

Mrs. Porter. I do not recall whether I did or not, because I am not 
sure of the classification under which I did a research job. 

Senator McCarran. You wouldn't have any classification up there. 
I didn't ask for any classification. 

Mrs. Porter. I do not recall. 

Senator McCarran. Did you work on the Hill ? Did you work in 
the Capitol on the Education and Labor Committee for the Senate? 

Mrs. Porter. I did a research job. I do not recall how it was used, 
offhand right now, or for whom it was prepared. I don't recall any 
other job that could possibly be classified, at this time. 



736 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Senator McCarran. Do you remember who was the chairman of the 
Committee on Education and Labor when you worked for it ? 

Mrs. Porter. I do not recall who was chairman. 

Senator McCarran. Do you remember the year in which you worked 
for the Committee on Education and Labor ? 

Mrs. Porter. Senator, that is like saying, "When did you stop beat- 
ing your wife?" 

Senator McCarran. No, it isn't. 

Mrs. Porter. I say I do not recall. 

Senator McCarran. Do you remember the year during which you 
worked for the Committee on Education and Labor of the United 
States Senate? 

Mrs. Porter. I have no recollection. 

Senator McCarran. You mean you don't know whether you ever 
got paid by the Senate ? 

Mrs. Porter. I have already answered the question — by the Senate ? 

Senator McCarran. Yes. 

Mrs. Porter. I have already stated I worked for the Wheeler com- 
mittee at one time. 

Senator McCarran. You did work for the Wheeler committee? 

Mrs. Porter. I did, yes ; the Wheeler committee investigating rail- 
road financing. 

Senator McCarran. Was that a subcommittee of the Committee on 
Education and Labor? 

Mrs. Porter. I think it was a subcommittee of the Committee on 
Interstate Commerce, as I recall. 

Senator McCarran. How long did you work for that subcommittee ? 

Mrs. Porter. Well, Senator, as I said, I am not clear as to the dates, 
but I did work for that subcommittee. I do not recall the dates dur- 
ing which I was employed by that committee. 

Senator McCarran. Can you give me any idea how long you worked 
for the committee? 

Mrs. Porter. No. 

Senator McCarran. The length of time ? 

Mrs. Porter. No ; I would not hazard a guess, Senator. 

Senator McCarran. Was it as much as a year ? 

Mrs. Porter. I have given my answer, Senator. I would not hazard 
a guess because I do not recall. 

Senator McCarran. You wouldn't give us any estimation of the 
time you worked for the Wheeler committee ? 

Mrs. Porter. I am not required here to give estimations. I am 
required to testify as to facts. 

Senator McCarran. That is right. 

Mrs. Porter. And I will give no estimations. 

Senator McCarran. You will give no estimations ? 

Mrs. Porter. No, I will not. 

Senator McCarran. That is because you can't or because you 
won't ? 

Mrs. Porter. I have told you that I do not recall. 

Senator McCarran. Is it because you can't or that you will not? 
Tell me which. 

Mrs. Porter. Is it because I can't give an estimation ? 

Senator McCarran. Yes. 

Mrs. Porter. Or I will not give an estimation? 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 737 

Senator McCarran. Which is it? 

Mrs. Porter. I could not give an accurate estimation. 

Senator McCarran. We didn't ask you for an accurate estimation. 
We asked you how long you worked for the Wheeler committee, a 
year or a day or 2 years ? 

Mrs. Porter. I want to consult with counsel. 

(At this point Mrs. Porter consulted with Mrs. Rosenberg and 
Mr. Branton.) 

Mrs. Porter. You have the records, Senator. Why don't you read 
that? 

Senator McCarran. Read the question. 

(The question was read.) 

Mrs. Porter. Senator, I am trying to testify according to the facts, 
to the best of my recollection. I do not want to conjecture, as you 
have warned me here any slip I may make will be held against me. I 
do not even think you should ask me for a conjecture. 

I do not recall the period of my employment with that committee. 
I know I was employed by the committee. You have the records. I 
suggest that you refer to the records. 

Senator McCarran. That is your answer? 

Mrs. Porter. That is my answer. 

Senator McCarran. Proceed, Mr. Sourwine. 

Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Chairman, may I ask, we have here certain 
records which are original official records of the Government depart- 
ment. May I ask that the instruction be given that insertions of the 
pertinent data with respect to the employment record of the witness, 
covering the questions asked her, may be made in the record from 
these original documents ? 

(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibits 24G, 246A-B-C, 
247, 247A-B-C," and follow:) 

Exhibit No. 246 

United States Department of Agriculture 

agricultural adjustment administration, washington, d. c. 

Date: June 19, 1934. 

Recommendation to the Secretary. 

Action requested : Termination of Appointment ; and Appointment, Section 10a, 
Title 1, Public No. 10, 73rd Congress. 

Name : Margaret B. Bennett. 

State : Colorado. 

Date of -birth: December 28, 1901. 

Classification: Fr : EO-10. To: P-3. 

Designation : Fr : Assistant Attorney. To : Associate Attorney. 

Salary : Fr : $2,900. To : $3,200. 

Appropriation : Salaries & Expenses, Agricultural Adjustment Administration, 
Symbol #3X017-104-99-001. 

Cooperative employment : None. 

Date effective : August 8, 1934. 

Name and salary of predecessor : Sheet No. 2493. New Position. 

Headquarters : Washington, D. C. 

Period : Indefinite. 

To report in : Person. 

Reasons (Including statement of education, training, and experience for appoint- 
ment, reinstatement, transfer, etc.) : 

Since December 19, 1933, Miss Bennett has been employed as Assistant Attor- 
ney at $2900 per annum in the Office of the General Counsel. She has been 
serving in an unallocated position, and it is now proposed to terminate that 
&2918 — 53— vt. 12 2 



738 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

appointment and to reappoint her in an allocated position as Associate Attor- 
ney at $3200 per annum in the Litigation Section of the Office of the General 
Counsel. It is believed that the duties of this position fall under grade P-3 
of the Classification Act. 

Under general supervision of the Special Advisor on Litigation, Miss Ben- 
nett will prepare legal memoranda and opinions and perform other assigned 
duties incident to the conduct of litigation affecting the Administration ; and 
as assistant to a Special Assistant to the General Counsel, perform legal re- 
search work to determine the legal rights of landlords and tenants : compile 
laws in different states with relation to the rights of landlords and tenants 
with special reference to benefit contract payments issued pursuant to pro- 
visions of the Act ; and act as assistant to the Committee on Violations of 
Benefit Contracts. 

Miss Bennett completed grade and high schools, attended Colorado College 
one year, received her A. B. degree from Vassar College in 1925 ; worked toward 
a Ph. D. degree in economics at Columbia University Graduate School, and 
received her LL. B. degree from Columbia Law School in 1932. She is a mem- 
ber of the Illinois Bar Association. From 1926 to 1927 she was an instructor 
in Sociology at Colorado College at $1800 per annum ; in the summers of 1929, 
1930, and 1931 she worked as an assistant in economics, Bryn Mawr School for 
Women Workers, as a Law Clerk in the office of H. W. Houston. Charleston, 
and as a Clerk in the West Virginia Mine Workers' Union, respectively, with- 
out compensation ; from 1932 to 1933 was a law clerk in the Chicago Civil 
Liberties Committee; and from July 1933 to December 19, 1933, was employed 
as legal secretary to the General Counsel of the Public Works Administration, 
Washington, D. C, at $2600 (net) per annum. 

J. Wm. Harvey, 
Assistant to Administrator, 

Vacancy Position No. 7007, Journal No. 74, approved by President August 
4, 1934. 

Exhibit No. 246A 

Washington, D. C, February 9, 1935. 
The honorable the Secretary of Agriculture. 

Dear Mr. Secretary : Because the resignation of Mr. Frank has been re- 
quested I hereby tender my resignation to take effect as of February 15. 

I doubt that in the history of this country has a Government bureau been 
served with more brilliance, integrity, disregard for personal advancement, 
and tireless devotion to the interests of the people which that bureau was charged 
to protect than the Agricultural Adjustment Administration has been served 
by Mr. Frank. He has honestly and courageously pointed out the attempts on 
the part of interests inimical to the great mass of farmers to use the Agricul- 
tural Adjustment Administration for their, selfish purposes. The request for 
his resignation, and that of the others who resigned at the same time, therefore, 
seems to me to constitute the adoption of policies out of keeping with the pur- 
poses of the Agricultural Adjustment Act, and a declaration that the Agricul- 
tural Adjustment Administration does not welcome the kind of public service 
which Mr. Frank has performed. 

Under these circumstance I cannot remain with a feeling of cooperation, 
even though my position is a subordinate one. 
Respectfully, 

Margaret B. Bennett. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 739 

Exhibit No. 246B 

Personnel Recommendation 

July 22, 1935. 

To the Administrator: 

Your approval of the following recommendation is requested : Extension 

of Appointment for Emergency Period of Margaret B. Bennett, Division of 

office: General Counsel's Office. Section & Unit: Community Management 

Section. 

Legal residence : Colorado. 

Date of birth : 1901. 

Designation : Associate Attorney. 

Salary: $3,200. 

Headquarters : Washington, D. G. 

Report in : Person. 

Effective : August 1, 1935. 

Period : Emergency. 

Previous incumbent of position : 

Reasons for action : To provide necessary legal assistance in the Community 
Management Section. General Counsel's Office. 

Duties : See personnel sheet for duties. 

Education : Vassar College, A. B., 1925 ; Columbia University Graduate School, 
2 years ; Columbia University Law School, LL. B., 1932. 

Employment record (Including all Government service) : 5 months as secretary 
to General Counsel of PWA, Washington, D. C. ; 16 months as assistant 
attorney, AAA, Washington, D. C. ; 1 year instructor sociology, Colorado 
College, College Springs, Col. ; 6 months as legal secretary in Chicago Civil 
Liberties Committee. 

State whether appointment is to be under civil service if excepted : If under 
Civil Service, give authority (including standing of appointee on certificate 
and disposition of eligibles whose names appear before that of appointee and 
action to be taken with Civil Service Certificate) : Excepted. 

personnel division, classification section 

Approved : Courts D. Rea, Chief. 
Indicate whether your appropriation or allotment is sufficient to meet the obli- 
gation recommended : Sufficient. 

Lee Pressman, 
General Counsel. 



Exhibit No. 246C 

Standard Form No. 8 

(Approved by the President, May 22, 1925) 

Oath of Office 

Prescribed by Section 1757, Revised Statutes of the United States Resettlement 
Administration, General Counsel's Office. I, Margaret B. Bennett, do solemnly 
swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United 
States against all enemies, foreign and domestic ; that I will bear true faith and 
allegiance to the same ; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental res- 
ervation or purpose of evasion ; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the 
duties of the office on which I am about to enter. 

So help me God. 

(Signed) Margaret B. Bennett. 

Subscribed and sworn to before me this 16th day of August A. D., 1935, at 
Washington, D. C. 
[Seal] 

(Signed) Theodore J. King, 

Notary Public. 

Note. — If the oath is taken before a Notary Public the date of expiration of 
his commission should be shown. 

Position to which appointed : Associate Attorney, P-3. 
Date of entrance on duty : August 1, 1935. 



740 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Exhibit No. 247 

[Telegram] 

Colorado Springs, Colo., August 7, 1935. 
Fred L. Parker, 

Resettlement Administration, Washington: 
Margaret Bennett was capable, efficient, and well qualified for an instructor- 
ship in Colorado college several years ago. We do not have specific informa- 
tion relative to qualifications for the position you mention. On the basis of our 
general knowledge of her ability we think she should be able to fill the position 
you mention satisfactorily. 

C. B. Hershey, Dean. 

Exhibit No. 247A 

Service rating form of Margaret Bennett, Department of Agriculture, Office 
of the Solicitor, Resettlement Division, signed by Monroe Oppenheim on March 
31, 1937. Rating of excellent. 

(The form is on file with the committee, under exhibit No. — .) 



Exhibit No. 247B 
United States Department of Argiculture, 

, 193-. 

To the honorable the Secretary of Agriculture. 

Sir : I hereby tender my resignation of the position of assistant attorney at 
a salary at the rate of $3,200 per annum in the Resettlement Administration, in 
the United States Department of Agriculture, to take effect at the termination 
of the 19th day of July 1937. Reasons : 
Very respectfully, 

(Signed) Margaret B. Bennett 

Exhibit No. 247C 

United States Department of Agriculture, 

Office of the Solicitor, 
Washington, D. C, Jan. 10, 1938. 

Recommendation to the Secretary. 

Action requested : Acceptance of Resignation. 

Name: Margaret B. Bennett. 

State : Colorado. 

Date of birth : Dec. 28, 1901. 

Classification: P-3. 

Designation : Associate attorney. 

Salary : $3,200 per annum. 

Appropriation : 01-56-06/8999, Emergency Relief, Farm Security Administration, 
Administrative Expenses, 1936-1938, OP-256-2, WP-5-003. 

Cooperative employment : None. 

Name and salary of predecessor : Same person, Sheet No. 617, P-3-22. 

Headquarters : Washington, D. C. 

Date effective : Termination of July 19, 1937. 

Period : 

To report in : 

Reasons (including statement of education, training, and experience for appoint- 
ment, reinstatement, transfer, etc.) : 
Miss Bennett was carried on the rolls of the Office of the Solicitor at the request 

of the Senate Committee on Education and Labor, to which she had been detailed, 

in order that she might be granted the annual leave accumulated prior to March 

11, 1937, the date she was transferred to the payroll of the committee. Miss 

Bennett took her accumulated annual leave from July 6 through July 19, 1937. 

It is, therefore, recommended that her resignation, which is attached, be accepted, 

to take effect at the termination of July 19, 1937. 
Very respectfully, 

C. M. Boyle, 
Assistant Solicitor. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 741 

Senator McCarran. Very well. 

Mr. SouRwiNE. I offer them in that way because that enables me 
to keep these in the original folder. 

Senator McCarran. Very well. 

Mr. Sourwine. We will get whatever authentication we can of the 
documents at the time we put it in the record. Were you ever 
employed by the Chicago Civil Liberties Committee? 

Mrs. Porter. My recollection was that I was employed by Arthur 
Fisher, who was the president of that organization, and for the pur- 
pose of doing work for that organization. The money that I received, 
according to my recollection, was from Mr. Fisher. But I did work 
for that organization, I would say, as his contribution to that organ- 
ization. 

Mr. Sourwine. You performed the duties of legal secretary? 

Mrs. Porter. Yes ; I did perform the duties of legal secretary. 

Mr. Sourwine. Now, in addition to your employment by the Public 
Works Administration and Agricultural Adjustment Administration, 
you were also employed by the Resettlement Administration, were 
you not ? 

Mrs. Porter. I was ; yes. 

Mr. Sourwine. Can you tell us any other Government employment 
that you had beyond the three I have mentioned, that is, Public Works, 
AAA, Resettlement, and the employment with the two committees of 
the Congress ? 

Mrs. Porter. I mentioned the National Labor Relations Board 
already. 

Mr. Sourwine. What was your employment with the National 
Labor Relations Board ? 

Mrs. Porter. As an attorney. 

Mr. Sourwine. That followed these other periods of employment, 
did it? 

Mrs. Porter. That was my last employment with the Government, 
as I recall. 

Mr. Sourwine. Can you tell us who assisted you to secure your 
employment with the Resettlement Administration ? 

Mrs. Porter. I think I will refuse to answer that question on the 
ground that I might — I do not have to bear witness against myself 
under the fifth amendment. 

In view of the activities of this committee and other committees, at- 
tacking certain members of the agency for which I had previously 
worked, and various lists would come out with names of the people who 
worked in the agencies I would have to refuse to answer that question 
under the fifth amendment, which provides I need not give — bear wit- 
ness against myself. 

Senator McCarran. On the ground that if you did answer it might 
tend to incriminate you ? 

Mr. Sourwine. You understand, do you not, that in claiming that 
privilege you are asserting that there is an offense for which you could 
be prosecuted and that you feel that a truthful answer to the question 
might at least form a link in a chain which would lead to such prosecu- 
tion of yourself for that offense ? Is that your understanding ? 

Mrs. Porter. My understanding is this — — 

Senator McCarran. On the ground that you might incriminate 
yourself ? 



742 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Mrs. Porter. Something in this answer might lead to prosecution 
for some crime. 

Mr. Sourwine. Yes. 

Mrs. Porter. That is all. Or form a link in a chain which might 
lead to prosecution. 

Mr. Sourwine. Yes. 

Mrs. Porter. That is slightly different from your statement. 

Mr. Sourwine. Who was the Mr. Frank in whose behalf you re- 
signed from Government employment? 

Mrs. Porter. I object to that question. Will you please state it as 
a question? 

Mr. Sourwine. I said who was the Mr. Frank in whose behalf you 
resigned from Government employment? 

Mrs. Porter. There is no testimony here that I resigned in any- 
body's behalf, Senator. 

Mr. Sourwine. You did, didn't you ? 

Mrs. Porter. I have not testified 

Mr. Sourwine. I am asking you now. You did, didn't you? 

Mrs. Porter. I told you I didn't recall 

Mr. Sourwine. Didn't you resign because a Mr. Frank had been 
fired ? 

Mrs. Porter. What period are you referring to ? 

Senator McCarran. Just answer the question. 

Mrs. Porter. And what agency? 

Mr. Sourwine. Do you recall resigning from Government employ- 
ment because a Mr. Frank had been fired ''. 

Mrs. Porter. I get it now. You are talking about the AAA now. 
I did resign because of the fact that the policies of the AAA had come 
to the point where many of the attorneys were fired and the policies 
had changed. A great many members of the legal staff were fired at 
that time. 

Mr. Sourwine. I ask you a question : Didn't you resign because a 
Mr. Frank had been fired? 

Mrs. Porter. I resigned because of the situation in the Agriculture 
Adjustment Administration, which included the firing of Mr. Frank. 

Mr. Sourwine. Didn't you in your resignation state you were re- 
signing because Mr. Frank's resignation had been requested? 

Mrs. Porter. Perhaps. I don't recall what I stated, frankly. You 
are familiar with that situation there. I resigned because of that 
situation. 

Mr. Sourwine. We will get back to the original question. Who 
was Mr. Frank ? 

Mrs. Porter. He was the General Counsel of the AAA. 

Mr. Sourwine. That is all you would have had to say to answer the 
first question and we could have saved this time. 

Mrs. Porter. That was not the question. 

Mr. Sourwine. What Mr. Frank was it, Jerome Frank? 

Mrs. Porter. That is correct. 

Mr. Sourwine. Was he a friend of yours ? 

Mrs. Porter. Yes; he was. 

Mr. Sourwine. Is he still ? 

Mrs. Porter. I haven't seen him for many years. 

Mr. Sourwine. What was the highest salary you ever received in 
the Government? 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 743 

Mrs. Porter. That I don't recall. I am sure you have the records. 
I am not going to guess. I have a guess, but you have the records 
there. 

Mr. Sourwine. Were you ever a member of the Communist Party 
of the United States of America ? 

Mrs. Porter. I shall decline to answer that question under the fifth 
amendment, my right not to testify against myself. 

Mr. Sourwine. Are you presently a member of the Communist 
Party of the United States of America? 

Mrs. Porter. Same answer, same grounds. 

Senator McCarran. You decline to answer under the fifth amend- 
ment because your answer might tend to incriminate you? 

Mrs. Porter. And also under the first amendment. 

Senator McCarran. I am asking you a question. 

Mrs. Porter. I would like to add other grounds. 

Senator McCarran. I didn't ask you to add anything. 

Mrs. Porter. I did add it. 

Senator McCarran. Your addition will be stricken. Why don't 
you answer the question ? 

Mrs. Porter. I have a right to state my grounds. My answer is 
both grounds, I will state. The purpose of the fifth amendment was 
to prevent tyrannical inquisitions like this so the people might be able 
to make up their own minds as to whom they wish to support and 
what political advice they wish to have. 

Senator McCarran. Someone has given you a very wrong concep- 
tion of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Branton. That is a matter of opinion, Senator. 

Senator McCarran. I didn't ask you for that. 

Mr. Branton. That is all right. That is a matter of opinion, 
Senator. 

Senator McCarran. I didn't ask you for that. Any more of that 
and I will remove you from the room. 

Mr. Branton. You may remove me from the room, but 

Senator McCarran. I will remove you from the room in just a 
moment. I didn't ask you for a comment, 

Mrs. Rosenberg. I object to the Senator's statement 

Senator McCarran. Sit down, little lady. Your objection will be 
stricken from the record. Your objection is off the record. You are 
not in court. This is not a trial. 

Mrs. Porter. I am entitled to counsel. 

Senator McCarran. You have counsel. 

Mrs. Porter. To be entitled to counsel means entitled to legal ad- 
vice and statement of rights. 

Senator McCarran. You were told what your rights were, and that 
is enough. 

Mrs. Porter. I object. 

Mr. Sourwine. Have you ever engaged in espionage for the benefit 
of a nation other than the United States? 

Mrs. Porter. I decline 

Senator McCarran. Did you hear the question ? 

Read the question. 

(The question was read.) 

(At this point Mrs. Porter consulted with Mrs. Rosenberg and 
Mr. Branton.) 



744 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Senator McCarran. Read the question, Miss Reporter. 

(The question was reread.) 

Mrs. Porter. Senator, I object to this question. This is a lot like 
the question "Have you stopped beating your wife?", and it assumes 
facts not in evidence or in the record. 

Senator McCarran. Do you stand on the fifth amendment ? 

Mrs. Porter. I will answer this question in my own way. The 
question assumes that I have engaged in espionage in behalf of the 
United States. Is that the question you are asking me ? 

Senator McCarran. Read the question. 

Mr. Sourwine. The question assumes nothing. 

Mrs. Porter. It says, "Have you engaged in espionage for any 
country other than the — " 

(The question was reread.) 

Mrs. Porter. That assumes I have engaged in espionage for the 
United States. 

Senator McCarran. It doesn't assume anything. It just asks you 
a question. You may answer it if you wish. 

Mr. Sourwine. I will explain that for the record. It would take 
two questions to reach this same area otherwise. I would have to ask, 
first, if you had ever engaged in espionage, and then I would have to 
limit the area. I am interested for this record in the area of espionage 
other than for the United States, and that is why I asked the question 
the way I did. 

Mrs. Porter. Well, I am going to refuse to answer that question 
on the ground of the fifth amendment, which is that I need not testify 
against myself. 

Mr. Sourwine. I have no further questions. 

Senator McCarran. Are you a member of the Communist Party 
now? 

Mrs. Porter. I have just answered the question, Senator. 

Senator McCarran. You are carrying your Communist card right 
now, aren't you ? 

Mrs. Porter. I have refused to answer such a question on the 
grounds of the fifth amendment, and I stand on my answer. 

Senator McCarran. Will you lay your Communist card on the 
table before the chairman of this committee ? 

Mrs. Porter. I don't have to be baited by you, Senator. I am here 
as a witness, not to be baited. 

Senator McCarran. I am just asking you to lay your Communist 
card on the table before the committee. 

Mrs. Porter. Senator 

Mrs. Rosenberg. That is assuming facts not in evidence. 

Senator McCarran. Just a minute. 

Mrs. Porter. As a taxpayer and citizen I demand you stay within 
your constituted authority. 

Senator McCarran. Do you refuse to do that ? 

Mrs. Porter. I demand you stay within your authority to 
investigate 

Senator McCarran. Do you refuse to do that? That is all I am 
asking you now. 

Mrs. Rosenberg. We are here to answer questions. 

Mrs. Porter. I will answer questions and I will not be baited, 
Senator. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 745 

Senator McCarran. You are not going to lay your Communist 
card here ; is that it ? That is your answer ? *> 

Mrs. Porter. Senator, I will not be baited. If you want to ask 
me a question, I will answer it. 

Senator McCarran. I asked you the question, little lady. 

Mrs. Porter. What is the Question ? 

Senator McCarran. I asked you to lay your Communist card on 
the table. 

Mrs. Porter. That is not asking me a question. That is ordering 
me to do something. 

Senator McCarran. You refuse? 

Mrs. Porter. I refuse to answer any question concerning the Com- 
munist Party on the basis of the fifth amendment. 

Senator McCarran. Is there anything else ? 

Mr. Sourwine. That is all. 

Senator McCarran. That is all. 

(Whereupon, at 12 : 25 p. m., a recess was taken until 2 p. m. of the 
same day.) 

Senator McCarran. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are 
about to give before the Internal Security Subcommittee of the Com- 
mittee on the Judiciary of the United States Senate will be the truth, 
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? 

Mr. Vincent. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF CRAIG 'S. VINCENT, SAN CRISTOBAL VALLEY 
RANCH, SAN CRISTOBAL, N. MEX. 

Mr. Sourwine. Will you please state your name and address, your 
business, or profession? 

Mr. Vincent. My name is Craig S. Vincent. I live at San Cris- 
tobal, N. Mex. I, together with my wife, operate a guest ranch. 

Mr. Sourwine. Is that the San Cristobal Valley Ranch? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes. 

Mr. Sourwine. When were you born, Mr. Vincent ? 

Mr. Vincent. February 17, 1907. 

Mr. Sourwine. Where? 

Mr. Vincent. In Nevada, Mo. 

Mr. Sourwine. Were you ever employed by the United States 
Government ? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes. 

Mr. Sourwine. It is possible I asked that question out of order, 
Mr. Chairman. Perhaps I should get the witness' academic back- 
ground first. 

You graduated from high school? 

Mr. Vincent. Grand Junction, Colo. 

Mr. Sourwine. June of 1925 ? 

Mr. Vincent. I think that is correct. 

Mr. Sourwine. You went to Stanford University? 

Mr. Vincent. I did. 

Mr. Sourwine. You received your A. B. degree there in June of 
1929? 

Mr. Vincent. I think that is correct, sir. 

Mr. Sourwine. You thereafter went to Columbia University Law 
School? 



746 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Mr. Vincent. For 2 years. 

.Mr. Sourwine. From September 1929 to June 1931? 

Mr. Vincent. I think that is the correct date. 

Mr. Sotjrwine. Did you receive a degree there ? 

Mr. Vincent. No. 

Mr. Sotjrwine. Thereafter you went to the Denver Law School? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Sotjrwine. From September 1931 to June 1932 ? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes. 

Mr. Sotjrwine. And received an LL. B. degree there ? 

Mr. Vincent. That is correct. 

Mr. Sotjrwine. In college you majored in political science? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes. 

Mr. Sotjrwine. Your minors were economics and history? 

Mr. Vincent. One of them economics, I remember. I don't remem- 
ber whether the other was history or not. 

Mr. Sotjrwine. Did you ever practice law ? 

Mr. Vincent. No. 

Mr. Sotjrwine. Did you ever take a bar examination? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes. 

Mr. Sotjrwine. Where ? 

Mr. Vincent. In Denver, Colo. 

Mr. Sotjrwine. Did you pass ? 

Mr. Vincent. No. 

Mr. Sotjrwine. That is the only effort you have made to seek ad- 
mission to the bar ? 

Mr. Vincent. That is right. 

Mr. Sotjrwine. You are married ? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes. 

Mr. Sotjrwine. You have been married for about how long ? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes ; I am married. 

Senator McCarrran. The question is you have been married for 
about how long ? 

Mr. Vincent. Presently since 1949. 

Mr. Sotjrwine. You say "presently." You mean this is your 
second wife. 

Mr. Vincent. That is right. 

Mr. Sotjrwine. Will you tell us, sir, what your wife's maiden name 
is, your present wife? 

Mr. Vincent. Jeannette Hill — well, her first name was Deborah; 
Jeannette. 

Mr. Sourwine. Your first marriage was terminated by death or 
divorce? 

Mr. Vincent. By divorce. 

Mr. Sourwine. What was your first wife's name? 

Mr. Vincent. Joyce Campbell. 

Mr. Sourwine. Where is your legal and voting residence? 

Mr. Vincent. In San Cristobal, N. Mex. 

Mr.' Sourwine. You were formerly a legal and voting resident of 
Colorado? 

Mr. Vincent. That is right. 

Mr. Sourwine. Have you ever voted anywhere else other than in 
New Mexico and Colorado ? 

Mr. Vincent. In Washington by absentee ballot. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 747 

Mr. Sourwine. Absentee ballot was cast in Colorado? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes. I am not certain. I think I may have voted 
in New York. I don't remember whether I did or not. 

Mr. Sourwine. Now, have you been employed by the United States 
Government ? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes. 

Mr. Sourwine. Will you tell us about that employment chronolog- 
ically, sir ? 

Mr. Vincent. To the best of my ability and recollection I will. It 
goes over a past period of dating back 20 years. I will try to do the 
best I can. 

I was first employed as the director of National Reemployment 
Service for Colorado. At the same time I was a member of the State 
Legislature in Colorado. 

Mr. Sourwine. That was when ? 

Mr. Vincent. Sometime in the spring or summer of 1933 I started 
my work. 

Mr. Sourwine. I have a memorandum here you were appointed 
July 17, 1933, as State director of the Employment Service. 

Mr. Vincent. I believe that is the correct date. 

Mr. Sourwine. Were you a dollar-a-year man at the start? 

Mr. Vincent. I was. 

Mr. Sourw t ine. I have a note here on November 1, 1933, you were 
promoted to $250 a month. Is that right ? 

Mr. Vincent. If you have the record there, I would like to 

Mr. Sourwine. This is not a record, sir. This is only a note of 
certain information received over the telephone. I can't vouch for 
its accuracy. 

Mr. Vincent. About that amount. I don't remember exactly what 
my starting salary was. 

Mr. Sourwine. You resigned from that position, did you? 

Mr. Vincent. Well now, my recollection on that is a little bit hazy, 
for this reason : I went from Denver to Washington, as I recall, in 
1935, to accept a position in the national office of the United States 
Employment Service. I don't remember whether I resigned my 
directorship or whether it was just terminated. But I did take a new 
position with the United States Employment Service. 

Senator McCarran. Were you with the Government or the State 
of Colorado, in the first instance? 

Mr. Vincent. In the first instance, Senator, I was with the Federal 
Government, although after the Wagner-Peyser Act was passed, I 
also became at the same time the first director of the Colorado State 
Employment Service, to help establish that. 

Mr. Sourwine. You left Denver at about the end of January 1935 ; 
is that correct? 

Mr. Vincent. I was going to say February, but it was around that 
time, yes. 

Mr. Sourwine. I have again a note here that you resigned January 
31, 1935. 

Mr. Vincent. It was about that time. 

Mr. Sourwine. You went to Washington ? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes. 

Mr. Sourwine. With the national office? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes. 



748 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Mr. Sourwine. What was your capacity there ? 

Mr. Vincent. It is a little bit difficult for me to remember my exact 
capacity. I can't remember actually which job I did first. I know 
that I represented the United States Employment Service in what 
generally would be called fieldwork with the States, that is, the Na- 
tional Reemployment Service particularly, at that time. 

Mr. Sourwine. Now, did you go directly, I mean within a reason- 
ably short time, to Washington after you left that position in Denver ? 

Mr. Vincent. I went immediately. 

Mr. Sourwine. Again there is apparently a discrepancy in this 
note here. The note I have shows you as having been appointed to 
the National Employment Service, March 1, 1937, which was 2 years 
and 1 month after your resignation in Denver. 

Mr. Vincent. I think I can explain that. As I recall, there was 
a period of time in which I was on a payroll that was, the money for 
which was supplied by grants from the Carnegie Corp., which was 
a foundation, and the Spellman Foundation or Fund — I can't remem- 
ber the exact name. That may be the reason for an intervening period 
of time there. I can't recall exactly when that was, when my salary 
came from that fund. 

Mr. Sourwine. You were all that time working for the Federal 
Government ? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes. The United States Employment Service was 
given funds to conduct job studies in American industry. And I was 
in charge at one point of the fieldwork, engaged in the collection and 
making of job analyses in the major industries in the country. 

Mr. Sourwine. At any rate, you were employed by the National 
Employment Service in March of 1937 ; is that right? 

Mr. Vincent. March of 1937 ? I believe that is correct. 

Mr. Sourwine. You transferred under the reorganization plan of 
July 1939 to the Federal Security Agency ? 

Mr. Vincent. The United States' Employment Service was trans- 
ferred. I don't remember what year it was. 

Mr. Sourwine. You went with it? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Sourwine. Then did you transfer to War Shipping in June 
of 1942? 

Mr. Vincent. I don't remember the month that I transferred to 
War Shipping, but, as I recall, it was in the spring or the summer of 
1942 ; I believe that is right. 

Mr. Sourwine. The date I have here is June 17. As Chief of the 
Section in the Domestic Division of War Shipping? 

Mr. Vincent. I don't remember the title. I remember what I did. 

Mr. Sourwine. You were a Section Chief, were you ? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes, I was. 

Mr. Sourwine. You remained with War Shipping until Decem- 
ber 31, 1945 ? 

Mr. Vincent. That is right. 

Mr. Sourwine. At which time you were separated due to a reduc- 
tion in force ? 

Mr. Vincent. Correct. 

Mr. Sourwine. At that time you were regional representative in 
New York? 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 749 

Mr. Vincent. I was, I think my — yes, I was regional representa- 
tive of what was known as the recruitment and manning organization 
of the War Shipping Administration. 

Mr. Sourwine. Did you thereafter have any further employment 
with the Government of the United States? 

Mr. Vincent. No, I don't believe I did. 

Mr. Sourwine. What did you do after that? Did you remain in 
New York or leave New York ? 

Mr. Vincent. I left New York I think in June. 

Mr. Sourwine. Of 1946? 

Mr. Vincent. I believe that is about the month I left New York. 
I returned to Colorado and took a major part in the campaign to 
elect John Carroll to Congress from Denver. 

Mr. Sourwine. And then? 

Mr. Vincent. And then 

Senator McCarran. That was in Denver, wasn't it? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes, it was. Well, in 1948 — let me skip to 1948. I 
played a major part in the Progressive Party campaign in Denver. 

Mr. Sourwine. You weren't a candidate yourself, were you? 

Mr. Vincent. No, I was not. 

Mr. Sourwine. Who were your candidates that year ? 

Mr. Vincent. Well, we supported Wallace and Taylor — I sup- 
ported Wallace and Taylor for President. 

Senator McCarran. I can't hear you. 

Mr. Vincent. I supported Wallace and Taylor. There were a few 
other candidates. I would hesitate to test my memory on who they 
were ; there weren't many. 

Mr. Sourwine. That is all right. You were then in Colorado from 
mid-1946 until 1948, at least. How were you supporting yourself 
during that time? 

(At this point Mr. Vincent conferred with Mr. Branton.) 

Mr. Vincent. I am sorry. Until I started to answer the first part 
of what I thought was going to be your question — I had a small busi- 
ness selling electrocardiograph machines. 

Senator McCarran. In Denver ? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes. 

Senator McCarran. What was that business ? 

Mr. Vincent. Well, it was just my own personal business, trying 
to sell those machines. 

Mr. Sourwine. Electrocardiograph machines. Now, did you con- 
tinue in that line of business past 1948 ? 

Mr. Vincent. No, it wasn't even during 1948, as I recall it- 
Mr. Sourwine. It was up until about when ? 

Mr. Vincent. I think the end of 1947. I am not quite certain about 
that, 

Mr. Sourwine. In 1948 was your political activity paid activity, or 
how were you supported ? 

Mr. Vincent. I was supported primarily by one of my brothers at 
whose house I ate. And I got, I think, some expense money — not 
very much. I borrowed money. 

Mr. Sourwine. Then, after the political campaign was over, did 
you remain in Denver? 



750 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Mr. Vincent. I can't remember in what month I went to Keno, Nev., 
to establish a residence and where I lived for a period of time at the 
end of which I obtained a divorce from my first wife. 

Mr. Sourwine. That was at or about' the end of 1948? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes ; it ran through the month, almost the month of 
January of 1949, too, as I recall. 

Mr. Sourwine. Then what did you do ? 

Mr. Vincent. Then with my wife, present wife, we went to New 
Mexico. 

Mr. Sourwine. Did you marry her in Reno ? 

Mr. Vincent. That is right. 

Mr. Sourwine. You went directly from there to New Mexico. Did 
you take over the San Cristobal Ranch right away ? 

Mr. Vincent. Well, I would like to — your question doesn't elicit 
what you want. 

Mr. Sourwine. I am sorry. Please give the information that 
should go into the record. 

Mr. Vincent. My wife owned the ranch before we were married, 
had owned it for many years. We decided to make it a guest ranch, 
and did. 

Mr. Sourwine. It became a guest ranch then in 1949 ? 

Mr. Vincent. That is right. 

Mr. Sourwine. You have been operating it as such ever since? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes ; that is right. 

Mr. Sourwine. I have here a photostat which purports to be a 
photostat of one of your prospectuses. I wonder if you could identify 
it as such. 

(At this point Mr. Vincent conferred with Mr. Branton.) 

Mr. Vincent. All right. I think that is it. I have an actual bro- 
chure with me — not in my pocket. I would be glad to present it to 
the committee. 

Mr. Sourwine. Is it similar to this [indicating] ? 

Mr. Vincent. Well, it is in finished form. That looks like the copy. 

Mr. Sourwine. We would much rather have the real thing from 
you than this. If you will be good enough to offer it, I will ask the 
chairman that it be annexed to the master copy of the record at this 
point rather than asking it be included in the record. 

Mr. Vincent. May I look at that for just one moment when yon 
have finished, Senator? 

Senator McCarran. Yes. 

Mr. Sourwine. This is one of your ways of advertising the ranch, 
I take it? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes ; we put out a brochure. 

Mr. Sourwine. You do that every year ? 

Mr. Vincent. I am not certain we put a new one out every year. 

Mr. Sourwine. Is this the first one? 

Mr. Vincent. I don't believe so. 

Mr. Sourwine. You send something each year. Perhaps one year 
you will send the same one you sent the year before ; is that right? 

Mr. Vincent. We have done that. 

Mr. Sourwine. Do you send that out to Occupant, Box So-and-So, 
or do you send it to a mailing list? 

Mr. Vincent. I would like to consult my counsel, please. 

Mr. Sourwine. Of course ; at any time you wish. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 751 

(At this point Mr. Vincent conferred with Mr. Branton.) 

Mr. Vincent. I would like to inquire as to the purpose of this par- 
ticular inquiry. It goes into my business. 

Mr. Sourwine. The committee is interested. 

Mr. Vincent. Well, Mr. Counsel — I guess you are the counsel for 
the committee? 

Mr. Sourwine. Yes. 

Mr. Vincent. I wired Senator Jenner upon receiving a telegraphic 
directive to be present here today, or, rather — today? Yes; today. 
And asked the purpose of this inquiry. I left without knowing it. 
I came in good faith, not knowing whether I was coming at my own 
expense, and at some real cost because our season is just starting, and 
without any time to prepare, particularly in view of the fact that I 
didn't know why I was coming. 

Senator Jenner wired me, Senator McCarran, that I was to be asked 
about my service in the United States Government. 

I would like very much to know the pertinency or the reasons for 
your questions about how we do our business at our ranch. 

Mr. Sourwine. Yes. There has been testimony before the Internal 
Security Subcommittee of the Senate with respect to the San Cristobal 
Ranch. You mean to indicate you are not familiar with that fact ? 

Mr. Vincent. No. I have read newspaper reports of this. 

Mr. Sourwine. You know there has been testimony about your 
ranch ? 

Mr. Vincent. That is right. 

Mr. Sourwine. You know there has been testimony that Com- 
munists have gathered there ? 

Mr. Vincent. I know that a man that I can testify to that made 
that accusation before a committee. 

Mr. Sourwine. The point is, if that accusation is untrue, you are 
the best person in the world to deny it. Here is an opportunity. 
I asked the question about whether you sent this out to a mailing list 
because I think that question is pertinent to the subject of how the 
ranch is operated and whether it is or is not in fact operated as an 
adjunct of the Communist Party or for the purpose of the Communist 
Party. 

I chose not to jump to the ultimate question, but to ask one of the 
questions underlying. 

Mr. Vincent. I am being presented with an accusation. Am I 
on trial ? 

Mr. Sourwine. You are not on trial here and you are not being 
accused of anything. 

Senator McCarran. No, sir. 

Mr. Sourwine. But the committee would be derelict in its duty, 
having you here and having received testimony with regard to certain 
alleged matters having taken place at your ranch, if you were not given 
an opportunity to testify with respect to them. 

(At this point Mr. Vincent conferred with Mr. Branton.) 

Senator McCarran. Now read the question. 

(The question was read.) 

Senator McCarran. That was referring to this photostatic copy 
[indicating]. 



752 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Mr. Vincent. In view of the explanation counsel has given us, 
the reason why the question has been asked, I don't desire and I 
am not going to engage in a debate as to the veracity of witnesses 
who have come before this committee. I don't want to not answer 
your questions. I came here to answer them in good faith, but my 
answer to that question is one which I shall have to — which I shall 
claim the privilege on, in view of the statements you have made, 
Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Sourwine. You mean you decline to answer on the grounds 
that a truthful answer 

Senator McCarran. Just a minute. Let him take his own position. 
He has counsel here. 

What is your answer ? If you refuse to answer, why do you refuse 
to answer % 

Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir. My answer, Senator, is that I feel, in view of 
committee counsel's explanation as to the meaning of the question 

Senator McCarran. Counsel gave you no explanation as to the 
meaning of the question. He asked you if you had read where accusa- 
tions had been made about your place. You said you had. He wanted 
to give you a chance to answer if you wanted to explain, if you 
wanted to. 

Now the question is propounded to you. You may answer it or you 
may claim the privilege under the fifth amendment, if you wish. You 
are at liberty to do so. 

Mr. Vincent. I wish to claim my privilege under the fifth amend- 
ment. 

Senator McCarran. You claim the privilege under the fifth amend- 
ment for the reason that if you were to answer it, it might tend to 
incriminate you ? 

Mr. Vincent. My understanding of the — 

Senator McCarran. I don't know what advice you have had before, 
and I don't propose to give you advice, because volunteered advice is 
not very well accepted. You have your counsel with you. 

Mr. Vincent. I think that is correct, Senator. I think inasmuch 
as I have my counsel I should seek my advice from him. I do wish 
to accept the privileges afforded me by the fifth amendment. 

Senator McCarran. You are refusing to answer under the provision 
of the fifth amendment? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Sourwine. Is the San Cristobal Kanch 

Senator McCarran. Is it your request to have this inserted in the 
record [indicating] ? 

Mr. Sourwine. Annexed to the record. 

Senator McCarran. It will be so annexed. 

(The documents referred to were marked "Exhibits No. 248 and No. 
249," and follow:) 

Exhibit No. 248 

Los Angeles 15, Calif., May 29, 1953. 
Internal Security Subcommittee, 

Senate Office Building, Washington, D. C. 
Gentlemen : Enclosed is a copy of the brochure which was ordered produced 
in connection with the testimony of our client, Craig Vincent, held in Los Angeles 
on May 28. 

Very truly yours, 

Margolis, McTernan & Branton, 
By Leo Branton, Jr. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 753 

Exhibit No. 249 
San Cristobal Valley Ranch 

welcomes guests from all countries and of all races and creeds. The Ranch is 
a part of the San Cristobal community. Our friends and neighbors have a rich 
and historic culture. Many of the families trace their roots back to the earliest 
Spanish and Mexican settlers. 

The Ranch lies at the head of the San Cristobal Valley in northern New Mexico, 
18 miles north of Taos, in the foothills of the Sangre de Cristo range, at an 
altitude of 7,900 feet. To the East the mountains rise another 5,000 feet into 
the deep blue New Mexico sky, while to the West the Rio Grande cuts its deep 
canyon through the desert. Nowhere have man and nature joined forces more 
successfully than they have in making Taos County so rich in culture, scenic 
beauty, and historical legend. 

ACTIVITIES 

Horseback riding along mountain trails. 

Swimming in the dramatic setting of the Rio Grande Gorge, or at the Talpa Hot 
Springs pool. Trout fishing in the Rio Grande or in the small mountain streams. 
Breakfast cook-outs and overnight camping by the Red River, the Rio Hondo, and 
on the rim of the Rio Grande canyon. 

Camping trips may be arranged to Latir Lakes, and Cabresto Lake. 

Trips to the Indian Pueblo Dances, local fiestas, and other points of scenic or 
historical interest. Below is a Calendar of some of the spectacular Indian 
Dances and Spanish-American Fiestas that take place May through September. 

SOCIAL EVENTS 

Song and dance programs — featuring local artists. 

Campfires, with supper and songs outdoors. 

Community night, a social evening with our neighbors — a weekly event. 

FOR THE UNSCHEDULED LEISURE HOURS 

The library provides a warm and cheerful atmosphere for constructive relaxa- 
tion, with its extensive collection of books, including a Southwest Corner, and 
recordings. 

The loft has facilities for indoor games, including pingpong, and two pianos 
for the ambitious musicians. 

Craft shop is available for interested persons. 

SPANISH 

An opportunity to learn some Spanish and to use what you already know. 

TRA N SPORT ATION 

May be obtained on air, railroad, and bus lines. There is busy service from 
Denver, Albuquerque, Raton, and Santa Fe to Taos, where guests with advance 
reservations are met without charge. 

For those who travel by automobile there are good U. S. and State highways 
which lead within 3 miles of the Ranch. From Denver you may follow the 
"Old Trail" used by Kit Carson, through Walsenburg, Fort Garland, and San 
Luis. There are good roads to Albuquerque and Sante Fe from the East, West, 
and South. All of the routes are alive with scenic beauty. 



The climate is generally dry and the mountain air invigorating and healthful. 
Days are warm and bright and the nights are always cool, so that warm clothing 
is necessary. 

May 3 — Taos Pueblo, Corn Dance and Ceremonial Races. 
June 13 — Taos Pueblo, San Antonio Day. 
June 15 — Los Cordovas, San Isidro Feast, Spanish-American. 
June 24 — Taos Pueblo, Corn Dances. 

— San Juan Pueblo, Annual Fiesta and Ceremonial Dances. 
July 14 — Cochiti Pueblo, Annual Fiesta and Corn Dances. 
32918° — 53— pt. 12 3 



754 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

July 25, 26 — Taos Pueblo, St. James Day and Corn Dances. 

— Taos Spanish Colonial Fiesta. 
Aug. 4 — Santo Domingo Pueblo, Annual Corn Dance. 
Aug. 10 — San Lorenzo Pueblo (Picuris), Ceremonial Dances. 
Aug. 12 — Santa Clara Pueblo, Annual Fiesta and Dances. 
Sept. 6 — San Udefonso Pueblo, Harvest Dance. 
Sept. 28, 29 — Taos, Annual Fiesta. 
Sept. 29, 30 — Taos Pueblo, San Geronimo Fiesta. 
— Sunset Dances and Footraces. 

children's program 

Full day supervision — from breakfast through dinner — for children from 
the age of 6 to 12. Activities include sports, swimming, crafts, music, indoor 
games. Special activities include visits to Pueblos, and overnight campouts. 

ACCOMMODATIONS 

1- and 2-room cabins with hot and cold running water. Family and smaller 
rooms in the Patio Building, where central showers and bathrooms are located. 
Electricity in all accommodations. Laundry facilities available. 



Are served informally in the attractive log dining room located in the Patio 
Building. The food is healthful and delicious. 

CABINS FOR RENT 

Four 3-room rustic cabins, equipped for housekeeping and fully furnished, are 
available from May 1. Rates from $50 weekly for 4 persons, include utilities, use 
of ranch facilities, and participation in program. 

RATES— WEEKLY 

Single person : $50, based on sharing a room, or $G0 for private room. 

Married couple : $95. 

Children : 6 to 12, $35 ; 3 to 5, $25 ; under 3, $10. No charge for babes in arms. 

Overnight and Daily Rates for those passing through. Special rates before 
June 15, and after Labor Day. 

Rates do not include Horseback riding. Nominal charges are made for trips 
in ranch cars. There is no charge for scheduled shopping trips to Taos. 

RESERVATIONS 

San Cristobal Valley Ranch can accommodate only a limited number of guests. 
To guarantee your reservation, please make it early. A deposit of $10.00 with 
each reservation is required. For reservations or further information please 
write : Craig and Jenny Vincent, San Cristobal, New Mexico, Telephone : San 
Cristobal No. 2. 

• Mr. Sourwine. My request was to have it annexed to the record, 
the copy of Mr. Vincent's that he has offered to give us of this year's 
prospectus. 

Are you withdrawing your offer to let us have it ? 

Mr. Vincent. I think I should, under the circumstances. 

Senator McCarran. You are going to withdraw that offer and not 
let us have it ? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes. 

Mr. Sourwine. I think in that case I will ask the chairman to 
request Mr. Vincent to produce that. He has stated he had it here with 
him. 

Sentor McCarran. The Chair will do that. 

Mr. Vincent. I think you misunderstood me. I said I didn't have 
it. I said I had a copy in the city. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 755 

Mr. Sourwine. That is what I mean. I am sure a demand of that 
nature for production is just as effective as an actual subpena duces 
tecum. We have established the existence of the document and the 
fact that it is in your possession. I am asking the Chair that you be 
instructed to furnish it to the committee. 

Senator McCarran. I do so instruct you. 

Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Sourwine. I then ask it be annexed to the record at this point. 

Mr. Vincent. How do you wish me to get it to you? 

Mr. Sourwine. In whatever way is most convenient to you. You 
can deliver it to your counsel and counsel will deliver it to the com- 
mittee, if that is satisfactory, for the record. 

Mr. Branton. The record doesn't show my appearance. I am Leo 
Branton, Jr., 112 West Ninth Street, Los Angeles. 

Mr. Sourwine. I overlooked that amenity — I am sorry — because 
you appeared as counsel for an earlier witness. Your face was fa- 
miliar to me, although your name is not on the record. 

Mr. Branton. I understand that. 

Senator McCarran. That will be so done, do I understand? 

Mr. Branton. At least we understand the order. 

Senator McCarran. This will be inserted in the record. I will 
clear up the record now. This will be inserted in the record. If 
you want to produce a different one, all right. If you don't, all right. 
The witness has been requested to produce it. 

Mr. Sourwine. The committee's order is that it be produced? 

Senator McCarran. Yes. 

Mr. Sourwine. I think the committee is entitled to know if the 
witness is assenting to that order. He asked how it would be arranged. 
I took that to mean assent. 

Mr. Branton. I don't know whether at this time I want to advise 
him to do it or not. At least I want it understood 

Senator McCarran. It is very simple. The Chair can order its 
production at a specified hour tomorrow and we can sit here and meet 
and have it produced at that time, if the witness prefers. 

Mr. Branton. I understood. 

Mr. Sourwine. I think we should know whether he is going to 
make arrangements, for his convenience, to deliver it to you and send 
it through the mail. 

Senator McCarran. He is under no compulsion. If the witness 
doesn't desire to do that, the Chair may wish to fix a date for its 
production. 

Mr. Branton. There is no use quibbling. We will see you get it. 

Mr. Sourwine. It is a relatively unimportant matter. 

Senator McCarran. Let's proceed. 

(The document referred to was subsequently received by the com- 
mittee and appears as exhibit No. 249 on p. 753.) 

Mr. Sourwine. Is the San Cristobal ranch operated as an adjunct 
of the Communist Party of the United States of America ? 

Mr. Vincent. Mr. Chairman 

Senator McCarran. Answer the question or else take your privilege. 

Mr. Vincent. I shall have to take my privilege. 

Senator McCarran. You don't have to take the privilege. Your 
counsel should advise you what to do. I don't want to interject 

(At this point Mr. Vincent conferred with Mr. Branton.) 



756 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Mr. Vincent. I must take my privilege under the fifth amendment. 

Senator McCarran. You refuse to answer under the provisions of 
the fifth amendment because the answer might tend to incriminate 
you? That is your position? I am telling you if you want to do it, 
all right. 

Mr. Vincent. Need I repeat that statement when I refuse? 

Senator McCarran. Yes, sir, I would. Your counsel should ad- 
vise you if you want the protection, because you can be protected one 
way and you can't be protected another. 

Mr. Branton. Could I ask this question : Since the witness has al- 
ready stated, as to one answer, that he declines to answer the question 
on the grounds of the fifth amendment, could it be understood here- 
after when he declines to answer it is on the same grounds, if he 
does so decline? 

Senator McCarran. No. We have had that matter up and it is 
not a good record and it isn't satisfactory. He should take his privi- 
lege, if he wants to take it, and state it on each occasion. 

Mr. Branton. Very well. 

Senator McCarran. He should not say, "I refuse to answer on the 
same grounds." 

Mr. Vincent. I understand, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator McCarran. Remember the fifth amendment covers several 
things. 

Mr. Branton. I understand the fifth amendment thoroughly, very 
thoroughly. 

Mr. Vincent. Mr. Chairman, as a matter of my convenience — and 
I hesitate to ask — is it all right if I have a cigarette or not? 

Senator McCarran. Surely. You can have a cigarette or cigar or 
whatever you like. 

Mr. Vincent. Will you join me ? 

Senator McCarran. No; I can't join you. I don't smoke; haven't 
smoked for years. 

To clear your position, I want you to be protected here. I think it 
well for you to listen to that question again. 

Mr. Vincent. Yes. Would you repeat the question to me again, 
please ? 

Senator McCarran. Then see whether you really want to invoke 
the fifth amendment. Remember this : As we understand, this is your 
home where you live, the home of yourself and your wife. 

Mr. Vincent. That is correct. 

Senator McCarran. Listen to the question that addresses itself to 
that home. 

Mr. Vincent. I shall. 

(The question was read.) 

Senator McCarran. Now, what is your answer ? 

Mr. Vincent. Because of the 

Senator McCarran. Not because of anything. What is your an- 
answer. 

Mr. Vincent. I have to decline to answer that under my privilege 
under the fifth amendment. 

Senator McCarran. All right. Where is this ranch located, please ? 

Mr. Vincent. In San Cristobal, N. Mex., Senator. 

Senator McCarran. In what county is that? 

Mr. Vingent. In Taos County. 






INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 757 

Senator McCarran. How far from some other place ? 

Mr. Vincent. Approximately 18 miles from Taos, N. Mex. 

Senator McCarran. About how far from Phoenix ? 

Mr. Vincent. I don't know. 

Mr. Sourwine. Do you know Maurice E. Travis? 

Senator McCarran. The question is, Do you know Maurice E. 
Travis? 

Mr. Vincent. I would like to consult my counsel. This involves 
the name of a person. 

Senator McCarran. All right. 

Mr. Sourwine. Certainly. 

(At this point Mr. Vincent conferred with Mr. Branton.) 

Mr. Vincent. Is the question, Do I know 

Mr. Sourwine. Yes. The question is, Do you know. 

Mr. Vincent. He has been named as a Communist. 

Senator McCarran. Now listen. The question is do you know. 
It is answerable with a yes or no. There is no use going into the other, 
or if you want to claim your privilege- 



Mr. Vincent. I would like very much to answer 

Senator McCarran. Do you know ? 

Mr. Vincent. In my own way. 

Senator McCarran. Yes or no. 

Mr. Vincent. Senator, I shall have again to invoke my privilege 
under the fifth amendment. 

Senator McCarran. On the ground that your answer might tend 
to incriminate you ? 

Mr. Vincent. That is correct. 

Mr. Sourwine. Has Mr. Maurice E. Travis been at San Cristobal 
ranch ? 

Mr. Vincent. May I just say "the same answer"? 

Senator McCarran. You claim your privilege or else answer. I 
just can't carry you any longer. I don't want to inject myself into 

Mr. Vincent. I understand your point. I decline, Mr. Chairman, 
to answer the question on the grounds afforded me by the fifth amend- 
ment to the Constitution. 

Senator McCarran. All right. 

Mr. Sourwine. Are you a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Vincent. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer that question on 
the grounds afforded me by the fifth amendment. 

Senator McCarran. In other words, your answer might tend to 
incriminate you; is that it? Is that what you want the record to 
show ? 

(At this point Mr. Vincent conferred with Mr. Branton.) 

Mr. Vincent. I want the record to show that I am being queried 
about my associations, my political affiliations, and about an indi- 
vidual who has been accused and named as being a Communist, and 
I feel that I have to decline to answer such questions about my 

Senator McCarran. No. You are asked if you are a member of 
the Communist Party. 

Mr. Vincent. Yes ; that is about my associations. 

Senator McCarran. If you weren't a member, you could say, "No," 
and that would settle it. 

Mr. Vincent. That is not my interpretation of my privilege. 

Mr. Sourwine. Counsel will not prompt the witness, please. 



758 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Mr. Chairman, I should like to say this: With the full under- 
standing it is not binding on the witness and not intended to be, 
I want the record to show he has been told this : In order properly to 
claim the fifth amendment it is necessary there be an offense for which 
you could be convicted, and you must have in your mind the fear, in 
good faith, that a truthful answer to the question might tend at least 
to form a link in a chain leading to that possible conviction. 

You are perfectly at liberty to consult with your counsel, whether 
or not that is true. I don't intend to argue about that. I wanted the 
record to show you had been told that. 

(At this point Mr. Vincent conferred with Mr. Branton.) 

Mr. Sourwine. There is no question pending. When you conclude 
your conference with counsel, I will ask you a question, if I may. 

Mr. Vincent. Yes. 

Mr. Sourwine. Is your present wife a member of the Communist 
Party, to your knowledge ? 

Mr. Vincent. I decline to answer that question on my privileges 
under the fifth amendment, Mr. Counsel. 

Senator McCarran. What is the extent in acreage or area of this 
San Cristobal Ranch? 

Mr. Vincent. I think we have about 160 acres, Senator. 

Senator McCarran. You hold out inducement to those who would 
come there for recreation, pleasure ; is that right ? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes. 

Senator McCarran. It is in what is known as San Cristobal Valley ? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes ; it is. 

Senator McCarran. This is your home that you are speaking about ? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes; my wife and son, my wife and my wife's son, 
adopted son, live there. 

Senator McCarran. Go ahead. 

Mr. Sourwine. Do you know, sir, that the Communist Party in 
Denver, Colo., at a meeting on March 17, 1950, decided that the San 
Cristobal Valley Ranch would be operated for the benefit of the Com- 
munist Party and all the proceeds derived therefrom would be at the 
disposal of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Vincent. I have to decline to answer that question, Mr. Chair- 
man, on the grounds of my privileges under the fifth amendment. 

Senator McCarran. The Chair instructs you to answer the question. 

(At this point Mr. Vincent conferred with Mr. Branton.) 

Mr. Vincent. Mr. Chairman, could I have that question read back? 

Senator McCarran. Yes. 

Mr. Vincent. The one I declined to answer. 

Senator McCarran. This last one ? 

Mr. Vincent. And you just instructed me to answer. 

Senator McCarran. Yes. 

Mr. Vincent. Yes, please. 

(The question was read.) 

Mr. Vincent. I would like to consult my counsel. 

Senator McCarran. All right. 

(At this point Mr. Vincent conferred with Mr. Branton.) 

Mr. Vincent. Mr. Chairman 

Senator McCarran. You understand the question ? 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 759 

Mr. Vincent. Yes; I do. I decline to answer the question under 
the privileges afforded me by the fifth amendment, because I think an 
answer might tend to incriminate me or be a link in a chain that could. 

Senator McCarran. All right. 

Mr. Vincent. Mr. Chairmiin, I would like to say, if I may, that any 
questions with regard 

Senator McCarran. I don't care to hear it. 

Mr. Vincent. With regard to the Communist Party- 



Senator McCarran. You have taken your privilege and you are 
entitled to it. Were you in Denver on that date ? 

Mr. Sourwine. March 17, 1950. 

(At this point Mr. Vincent conferred with Mr. Branton.) 

Mr. Vincent. I decline to answer that question, too, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator McCarran. Was your wife in Denver on that date ? 

Mr. Vincent. I decline to answer that, too, all on the grounds af- 
forded me by the fifth amendment, * 

Senator McCarran. Were you a delegate to or were you in attend- 
ance on the convention of the Communist Party or any meeting of 
the Communist Party at Denver on the date mentioned ? 

Mr. Vincent. I decline to answer the question on the grounds af- 
forded me by the fifth amendment. 

Senator McCarran. All right. 

Mr. Sourwine. Do you know Clinton Jencks ? 

Mr. Vincent. I must also decline to answer that question on the 
grounds afforded me by the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Sourwine. Do you know Harvey Matusow ? 

Mr. Vincent. I must decline to answer your question about Mr. 
Matusow, too, on the grounds afforded me by the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Sourwine. Do you know any of the officials of the Mine, Mill 
and Smelter Workers Union — the International Union of Mine, Mill 
and Smelter Workers? 

(At this point Mr. Vincent conferred with Mr. Branton.) 

Mr. Vincent. Will you read the question back ? Is it all right for 
me to have it read back ? 

Senator McCarran. Surely. 

(The question was read.) 

(At this point Mr. Vincent conferred with Mr. Branton.) 

Mr. Vincent. I must decline to answer. 

Mr. Sourwine. You mean the bare fact of meeting any of the 
officials of a union might tend to incriminate you; is that your 
position ? 

Mr. Vincent. You are asking me a question about a union that has 
been brought before the former committee headed by Senator Mc- 
Carran, and I must decline to answer that question on the grounds 
afforded me by the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Sourwine. Did you communicate with the People's World after 
you had been summoned to appear before this committee, to advise 
that publication of the fact you had been so summoned? 

(At this point Mr. Vincent conferred with Mr. Branton.) 

Mr. Vincent. Mr. Chairman, I have to decline again on the grounds 
of the fifth amendment. 

Senator McCarran. You understand the question? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes ; I did. 



760 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Senator McCarran. When were you subpenaed to appear ; do you 
remember the date ? 

Mr. Vincent. May I refer to this [indicating] ? 

Senator McCarran. Yes. 

Mr. Vincent. To the best of my knowledge, because my wife took 
the telephone call from the telegraph office in Taos, this was sent, 
I think, from Washington, D. C, by Senator Jenner at 3 : 53 p. m., 
on Monday, I believe, and when my wife received it over the tele- 
phone at about, oh, around 3 : 30 our time, which is mountain time. 
I believe that is approximately correct. 

Senator McCarran. What is the name of that publication? 

Mr. Sourwine. Daily People's World. 

Senator McCarran. Do you know that publication, the Daily Peo- 
ple's World ? Have you ever seen it ? 

Mr. Vincent. Is the question whether I have ever seen it? 

Senator McCarran. 1 eg. Have you ever seen it ? 

Mr. Vincent. I hope I may say this, Mr. Chairman — you may cut 
me off if you don't want me to 

Senator McCarran. There couldn't be any crime in your seeing it. 

Mr. Vincent. It seems to me we are getting into the question of 
what I read, or we could, at least, what publications I read. 

Senator McCarran. Have you ever seen it? 

Mr. Vincent. This, Mr. Chairman, I feel has no end. I think un- 
der our Constitution 

Senator McCarran. You are just playing with the committee. That 
■is all you are doing. 

Mr. Vincent. No, I am not playing with the committee. I came 
here in good faith. 

Senator McCarran. If you ever saw that paper, all you have to do 
is say so. There is no crime in that. You could look at that wall. 
There is no crime in that. The paper could be the wall. There is no 
crime in that. 

Mr. Branton. Some people have made crimes of it. 

Senator McCarran. I won't argue this with you. 

Do you know it is printed ? Do you know the name of the paper ? 
Did you ever hear of it before ? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes. 

Senator McCarran. A Communist paper, isn't it? You know it 
to be a Communist publication ? 

(At this point Mr. Vincent conferred with Mr. Branton.) 

Mr. Vincent. I must decline to answer that question, Mr. Senator, 
on the grounds of the fifth amendment, in view of the fact that paper 
has been labeled "Communist." 

Senator McCarran. After you were subpenaed who, if anyone, did 
you tell you had been subpenaed ? 

(At this point Mr. Vincent conferred with Mr. Branton.) 

Mr. Vincent. Excuse me. Just how was the question worded? 
(The question was read.) 

Mr. Vincent. This gets into the question of my right to talk. If 
you insist on an answer of knowing who I told this to, I will try to 
recall. 

Senator McCarran. You will what ? 

Mr. Vincent. I will try to recall who I told it to. 

Senator McCarran. All right. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 761 

Mr. Vincent. I told my wife or, rather, she told me first. 

Senator McCarran. You didn't have to tell her. 

Mr. Vincent. I told my boy. I told the people who are working 
at the ranch so they could continue to do the things that I was going 
to do. I remember telling them. 

Oh, yes, one other person. And I told a reporter on El Crepusculo, 
which is the weekly paper of Taos County. 

Mr. Sourwine. Is that a complete answer to the Senator's ques- 
tion, to the best of your recollection ? 

Mr. Vincent. To the best of my recollection, it is. 

Mr. Sourwine. Any of those persons which you have named con- 
nected in any way with the Daily People's World? 

(At this point Mr. Vincent conferred with Mr. Branton.) 

Mr. Vincent. I must decline to answer that question under the fifth 
amendment, because of the newspaper and its characterization in cer- 
tain places. 

Senator McCarran. What newspaper? 

Mr. Vincent. The one that counsel 

Senator McCarran. The Daily People's world? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes. 

Senator McCarran. Do you have the Daily People's World out at 
San Cristobal Ranch? Does it come there? 

(At this point Mr. Vincent conferred with Mr. Branton.) 

Mr. Vincent. Again, because it involves the publication which you 
named, I think you named the People's World 

Senator McCarran. Daily People's World. 

Mr. Vincent. Daily People's World. I must decline under my fifth 
amendment privileges. 

Senator McCarran. Because by mentioning it as being out there 
at San Cristobal Ranch you might tend to incriminate yourself, is 
that the idea? 

Mr. Vincent. I am relying upon the fifth amendment part of our 
Constitution as 

Senator McCarran. The fifth amendment is to protect one from 
testifying against himself. Now, would there be anything against 
you in that paper being out there ? 

Mr. Vincent. Well, this paper has been named- 

Senator McCarran. That doesn't incriminate you, does it? 

Mr. Vincent. Well, it might. 

Senator McCarran. You are not connected with the paper, are you? 

Mr. Vincent. My feeling 

Senator McCarran. You don't publish the paper, do you? 

Mr. Vincent. My belief is that it might. And that is why I must 
refuse to answer, Senator. 

Senator McCarran. You have nothing to do with the publication of 
the paper, have you ? 

Mr. Vincent. Again I think I must decline to answer the ques- 
tions 

Senator McCarran. Isn't it true? 

Mr. Vincent. On the grounds of the fifth amendment. 

Senator McCarran. Isn't it true? Remember you are under oath 
now. 

Mr. Vincent. Yes, I do remember now. 

Senator McCarran. You are responsible under your oath. 



762 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Mr. Vincent. Yes, sir. 

Senator McCarran. Isn't it true that the San Cristobal Ranch is 
maintained by the Communist Party of America as a place of indoc- 
trination of communism in America ? Isn't that true, and don't you 
know it to be true, and under your oath can you deny it? 

Mr. Vincent. I think, Senator, you are accusing me. 

Senator McCarran. I am not acusing you at all. I am just asking 
you a question. 

Mr. Vincent. I think then you are making an assumption. 

Senator McCarran. Just answer the question "Yes" or "No." 

Mr. Vincent. I will decline to answer the question, Mr. Chairman, 
on the grounds of the fifth amendment. 

Senator McCarran. All right. Now, what part of the fifth amend- 
ment do you apply to that? 

Mr. Vincent. It might tend to incriminate me, sir. 

Mr. Sourwine. Do you know Henry Collins? 

(At this point Mr. Vincent conferred with Mr. Branton.) 

Mr. Vincent. I must decline, Mr. Counsel, to answer your question, 
excepting in giving my answer as relying upon the fifth amendment. 
I might tend to incriminate myself. 

Mr. Sourwine. Do you know Henry Wallace ? 

Mr. Vincent. Who? 

Mr. Sourwine. Henry Agar Wallace. 

(At this point Mr. Vincent conferred with Mr. Branton.) 

Mr. Vincent. Are you talking about the Henry Wallace who was 
Vice President of the United States? 

Mr. Sourwine. Yes. 

Mr. Vincent. Yes — just a moment. 

Mr. Sourwine. That wasn't your answer? 

Mr. Vincent. No. I just wanted to confirm the question. 

(At this point Mr. Vincent conferred with Mr. Branton.) 

Mr. Vincent. Yes, I know him, Mr. Wallace. 

Mr. Sourwine. Were you ever a member of the National Committee 
of American-Soviet Friendship ? 

Mr. Vincent. I must decline under my privilege of the fifth amend- 
ment to answer the question. 

Mr. Sourwine. Were you ever a member of the board of directors of 
the National Committee of American-Soviet Friendship ? 

Mr. Vincent. I must decline again for the same reason. 

Mr. Sourwine. Were you a sponsor of a dinner in honor of Henry 
Wallace in September of 1949? 

Mr. Vincent. I don't remember. September of 1949 ? 

Mr. Sourwine. Yes. 

Mr. Vincent. I don't remember. 

Mr. Surwine. Were you a member of the National Wallace for 
President Committee ? 

(At this point Mr. Vincent conferred with Mr. Branton.) 

Mr. Vincent. I don't actually remember, Mr. Counsel. 

Mr. Sourwine. Were you a member of the American League for 
Peace and Democracy ? 

Mr. Vincent. I must decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman, 
under the privileges afforded me by the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Sourwine. Were you ever secretary of the Washington Indus- 
trial Union Council, CIO? 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 763 

Mr. Vincent. Yes; I was. 

Mr. Sourwine. When was that ? 

Mr. Vincent. Now, I don't remember the exact time I was a 
secretary. 

Mr. Soukwine. Was that while yon were in Washington, D. C? 

Mr. Vincent. Yes ; it was. 

Mr. Sourwine. Around 1941 ? 

Mr. Vincent. That is close. Have you something that could refresh 
my mind? 

Mr. Sourwine. I am sorry. That is the best I can do, is to mention 
1941. 

Mr. Vincent. Well, I was a secretary at one time for a short time. 
Now, I can't remember the exact date ; I don't remember. 

Mr. Sourwine. Did that organization have any Communist connec- 
tions, to your knowledge ? 

Mr. Vincent. Mr. Chairman, I again must decline to answer the 
question under the grounds of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Sourwine. While you were secretary of the Washington Indus- 
trial Union, CIO, did you take orders from the Communist Party? 

Mr. Vincent. I must decline to answer the question under the privi- 
leges of the fifth amendment, Mr. Counsel. 

Senator McCarran. Now, I hope you fully realize that if you had 
not taken orders from the Communist Party all you had to do was 
to say no. 

Mr. Vincent. Senator McCarran — — 

Senator McCarran. You realize that? 

Mr. Vincent. You are making an accusation. 

Senator McCarran. No ; I am not making an accusation. All you 
had to do was acquit yourself by saying no. 

Mr. Branton. One doesn't acquit oneself 

Senator McCarran. Just a moment. 

Mr. Branton. I have advised my client as to his rights. 

Senator McCarran. I am not talking to you. 

Mr. Branton. You can't imply guilt that way. If you understood 
the fifth amendment you would know that a refusal to answer does not 
imply guilt. 

Senator McCarran. I understand the fifth amendment very well. 

Mr. Branton. If you understood it you would know that 

Senator McCarran. I understood it very well before you were born. 

Mr. Branton. Then you wouldn't— 

Senator McCarran. The Communists don't want it understood. 

Mr. Sourwine. I have no more questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Senator McCarran. Are you a Communist now, member of the 
Communist Party of America now ? 

Mr. Vincent. Mr. Chairman, again respectfully, sir, but again 

Senator McCarran. Thank you for the respect. 

Mr. Vincent. I must decline to answer your question under the 
fifth amendment. 

Senator McCarran. You have a Communist card in your pocket 
right now, haven't you ? 

Mr. Vincent. Mr. Chairman 

Senator McCarrai*. You are under oath. Will you tell me whether 
or not you have %■ 



764 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Mr. Vincent. Would you care to take my place and testify I had ? 

Senator McCarran. Yes, I would testify I didn't have. 

Mr. Branton. Would you sit here under oath and testify he has 
a card in his pocket ? 

Senator McCarran. If I were in your place, I would say I have not 
very quickly. 

Mr. Vincent. Mr. Chairman 

Senator McCarran. I would clear myself very quickly. 

Mr. Vincent. Mr. Chairman, would you care to take my place and 
testify I had, that is, if you wish to take my place ? 

Senator McCarran. I wouldn't take your place for anything in the 
world. 

Mr. Vincent. That makes it pretty mutual, with reference to the 
person and not your office. 

Senator McCarran. That is all. 

Mr. Branton. Is this witness excused from the subpena? 

Senator McCarran. Are you through with him ? 

Mr. Sourwine. Yes. 

Mr. Branton. May I ask if the witness will be reimbursed for his 
travel expenses to come here? 

Mr. Sourwine. Yes. 

Mr. Branton. How will he be reimbursed ? 

Mr. Sourwine. Are you in urgent need of the money ? The normal 
method of reimbursement is by voucher. We had one witness who 
was in urgent need of money and I advanced it personally. 

Mr. Vincent. I wouldn't ask you to do that. I would like to 
have a voucher. 

Mr. Sourwine. The normal procedure is if you will tell me the 
amount the voucher will be sent to you from Washington. It is a 
little cumbersome. They make out the voucher and send it to you. 

Senator McCarran. Let the record show that we are now closing 
the hearing in Los Angeles and it will be taken up at the call of the 
Chair. 

(Whereupon, at 5 o'clock p. m., Thursday, May 28, 1953, the 
hearing in the above matter was adjourned.) 

The Chairman. Two or three inquiries have been made of me in 
regard to a statement appearing in this morning's press, concerning 
an outstanding physicist in the country, and I will ask the reporter to 
read to the press my statement in regard to this. 

(The reporter read the chairman's statement as follows :) 

My simple comment would be this : It is the function of the Internal Security 
Subcommittee to gather evidence of educators' membership in the Communist 
Party, which the record amply shows is directed from Moscow and is designed to 
deprive this country of academic freedom, the right to free inquiry, and the right 
to pursue scientific research. 

In connection with these hearings on the extent of subversion in the educational 
process of the United States, we have called in 85 educators, who were not able 
to deny under oath their membership in the Communist organization, on the 
grounds that their answers might incriminate them. 

The subcommittee shall continue its hearings, and in a short time expects to 
submit an interim report on its findings to date. 

The Chairman. We will be adjourned. 

(Whereupon, at 2:35 p. m. the subcommittee recessed, subject to 
call.) 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 
DEPARTMENTS 



TUESDAY, JUNE 16, 1953 

United States Senate, 
Subcommittee To Investigate the 

Administration of the Internal 
Security Act and Other Internal Security Laws, 

of the Committee on the Judiciary, 

Washington, D. G. 
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 11 : 40 a. m., in the caucus 
room, Senate Office Building, Senator William E. Jenner (chairman 
of the subcommittee) presiding. 

Present : Senators Jenner, Welker, Butler, and Smith. 
Present also: Robert Morris, subcommittee counsel; Benjamin 
Mandel, director of research ; and Robert C. McManus, staff member. 
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. Call the first 
witness. 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Wolff, Milton Wolff. Is Mr. Milton Wolff here, 
please ? 

The Chairman. Mr. Wolff, will you be sworn to testify? 
Mr. Wolff. Yes. I would like to make a request first, that this dis- 
play of cameras and so on, that they not be used while I testify. 

The Chairman. If you request the cameras then will not be put on 
you, but they may be put on as far as the committee is concerned, the 
room and the general hearing. 

Do you swear that the testimony you give in this hearing will be 
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 
Mr. Wolff. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF MILTON WOLFF, NEW YORK, N. Y. 

The Chairman. Will you state your full name to the committee ? 

Mr. Wolff. Milton Wolff. 

The Chairman. Where do you reside, Mr. Wolff? 

Mr. Wolff. At present, I reside in New York, New York City. I 
am subletting a place at 49 West 28th Street. 

The Chairman. And what is your business or profession? 

Mr. Wolff. I am a painter. 

The Chairman. Mr. Morris, you may proceed with the questioning. 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Wolff, you gave another address to the commit- 
tee in executive session as your residence. What was that other 
address ? 

Mr. Wolff. Since the address that I have now, I am about to move 
from there. I gave 23 West 26th Street, which is the address of the 

765 



766 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, of which I am national 
commander. 

Mr. Morris. So yon are the national commander of the Veterans 
of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade? 

Mr. Wolff. That is right. 

Mr. Morris. And you qualified for membership, and being an offi- 
cer of that organization, by your service in Spain ; is that right, Mr. 
Wolff? 

Mr. Wolff. That is right. 

Mr. Morris. When did you go to Spain ? 

Mr. Wolff. Before I answer that question, I would like in this 
open hearing to point out, as I did in the executive session, that my 
organization and myself as national commander were served a peti- 
tion by the Attorney General to appear before the Subversive Activi- 
ties Control Board.' This petition contained a number of allegations 
that deal with questions such as this one you are asking me now. 

It is my opinion that I am being put in an unfair position by being 
asked to answer these questions which are raised in the allegation 
prior to the hearing that I am entitled to before the Board and I 
again ask your opinion of whether it is permissible for me to proceed 
in this direction and whether the Attorney General concurs in this 
opinion. 

Mr. Morris. You are going to give truthful answers to us as well 
as the Subversive Activities Control Board, are you not, Mr. Wolff? 

Mr. Wolff. That is right, but it is my understanding that it is not 
necessary for me to give these answers prior to my appearance before 
the Control Board, since this would give the Attorney General's office 
an advantage over us that we do not enjoy in this respect with them 
in the hearing. 

The Chairman. I am sure the Attorney General's office would not 
take advantage of anyone and I am sure this committee will not take 
advantage of anyone. All we want are truthful answers and I am 
sure that will not jeopardize you in any way. 

You may proceed with the questioning, Mr. Morris. 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Wolff, you served in the Office of Strategic Serv- 
ices during the war, did you not ? 

Mr. Wolff. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Morris. Will you give us the circumstances leading up to your 
assignment with the Office of Strategic Services ? 

Mr. Wolff. Well, briefly, I enlisted in the Army. I volunteered 
in 1942, in the Infantry. Koughly, from 1942 to 1944, I served in 
various branches of the Armed Forces, most of which were not con- 
nected with the Infantry. I made application for transfer to the In- 
fantry. I also made application for transfer to the Office of Strategic 
Services, some time in 1944, I believe, to the best of my knowledge, 
since I have no records with me on that particular subject, when I 
was in Burma, and immediately after the Mytikana campaign. 

Mr. Morris. What campaign? Will you spell that for the re- 
porter ? 

Mr. Wolff. M-y-t-i-k-a-n-a probably, while I was in Burma, and 
immediately after this campaign my transfer came through, through 
regular channels and I was assigned to OSS in Italy. 

Mr. Morris. In Italy? 

Mr. Wolff. That's right. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 767 

Mr. Morris. Were you a member of the Communist Party at that 
time, Mr. Wolff? 

Mr. Wolff. I refuse to answer that question on the first grounds 
I stated and also on the first and fifth amendments. 

The Chairman. This committee, of course, recognizes your refusal 
to not answer the question under the fifth amendment of the Consti- 
tution, that your answer might tend to incriminate you, but we do 
not recognize your right to refuse to answer under the first amend- 
ment. 

Mr. Wolff. Well, nevertheless, I would like to include that. 

The Chairman. That is your privilege. 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Wolff, have you had training of any kind under 
foreign Communists ? 

Mr. Wolff. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of 
the fifth amendment. 

Senator Smith. That is to say that it might tend to incriminate 
you if you answered that question? 

Mr. Wolff. Unfortunately, that's the implication that will be put 
on it. However, that is not the motivation for my standing on this 
amendment. Nevertheless, I stand on it. 

Mr. Morris. You know when you invoke that privilege, you are 
affirming under oath that to give a true answer to that question you 
would be putting into the record facts which would lead to your in- 
dictment, at least form a link in a series that would lead to your 
conviction for a crime? Do you realize the significance of that, Mr. 
Wolff? 

Mr. Wolff. I also recognize the spirit of the amendment which 
was incorporated in the Bill of Rights to protect the innocent as well 
as the guilty. 

Senator Smith. I do not think the answer is responsive to the ques- 
tion. 

The Chairman. He said "also." He acknowledged the answer to 
the question by saying "also". 

Mr. Morris. In connection with your service in Spain, Mr. Wolff, 
did you serve under Soviet officers? 

Mr. Wolff. I'll invoke the fifth amendment on the same grounds. 

Mr. Morris. Did you receive training from Soviet officersl 

Mr. Wolff. I'll stand on the fifth amendment on this question. 

Mr. Morris. Did you serve under the command of a Lieutenant 
Cole Dumont, a French Communist? 

Mr. Wolff. I will refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth 
amendment. 

Mr. Morris. Were you trained by a man by the name of Vladimir 
Copic, C-o-p-i-c? 

Mr. Wolff. I'm invoking the fifth on that. 

Mr. Morris. Did you serve under General Kleber, K-1-e-b-e-r? I 
think he was a general. 

Mr. Wolff. If you're not sure what he was, I'm not going to answer. 

Mr. Morris. A military man named Kleber. 

Mr. Wolff. All these questions are too vague and I'll refuse to 
answer on the fifth. 

Mr. Morris. That one may be vague, but the others weren't. 

Mr. Wolff. They are to me. 



768 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Mr. Morris. If you don't know these people and if you weren't 
trained by them, just say so. 

The Chairman. You just say "No, I don't know them, I have never 
heard of them." All we want is the truth. 

Mr. Wolff. I'll stand on the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. That is a different answer entirely. 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Chairman, section 20 of the Subversive Activities 
Control law provides in subsection (5) that — 

any .person who has knowledge of or who has received instruction or assign- 
ment in the espionage, counterespionage, or sabotage service or tactics of a 
government of a foreign country or of a foreign political party, unless such 
knowledge, instruction, or assignment has been acquired by reason of civilian, 
military, or police service with the United States Government, the governments 
of the several States, their political subdivisions, the District of Columbia, the 
Territories, the Canal Zone, or the insular possessions, or unless such knowledge 
has been acquired solely by reason of academic or personal interest not under 
the supervision of or in preparation for service with the government of a 
foreign country or a foreign political party or unless, by reason of employment 
at any time by an agency of the United States Government having responsibilities 
in the field of intelligence, such person has made full written disclosure of 
such knowledge or instruction to officials within such agencies, such disclosure 
has been made a matter of record in the files of such agency, and a written 
determination has been made by the Attorney General or the Director of Central 
Intelligence that registration would not be in the interest of national security. 

Mr. Wolff. Would you repeat that section that is under and so 
forth? 

The Chairman. Section 20. 

Mr. Morris. Have you registered under the provision of this act? 

Mr. Wolff. I have not even registered under the provisions of any 
act of any Government bureau. 

Mr. Morris. In the face of the fact you have had service in a for- 
eign country and served under a foreign officer ? 

Mr. Wolff. I answered that question. 

Mr. Morris. By refusing to answer. 

Mr. Wolff. That's right. 

Mr. Morris. And you will not tell us 

Mr. Wolff. I answered it as it stands in the record there. I ad- 
mitted that I served in Spain I believe. 

The Chairman. That is right. The record will speak for itself. 

Mr. Morris. While you were a member of the Office of Strategic 
Services, did you meet with foreign Communists ? 

Mr. Wolff. I beg your pardon ? 

Mr. Morris. Did you meet with foreign Communists ? 

Mr. Wolff. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of the 
fifth amendment. 

Mr. Morris. At any time, did you discuss classified United States 
Government secrets with foreign Communists? 

Mr. Wolff. These questions are patented, and ridiculous. 

Senator Welker. What was that answer ? 

Mr. Wolff. I stand on the fifth. I mean obviously these questions 
are ones if Mr. Morris or any other member of the committee had in- 
formation to that effect that I did or did not would not be asking the 
question, but would be acting on it. 

However, I refuse to answer the question on the grounds of the 
fifth amendment. 

Mr. Morris. You mean you cannot answer with a denial in the 
record as to that question, Mr. Wolff? 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 769 

Mr. Wolff. I still stand on the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Morris. Have you ever committed an act of espionage against 
the United States Government? 

Mr. Wolff. I will stand on the fifth amendment on this question. 

The Chairman. Are you a member of the Communist Party now ? 

Mr. Wolff. I refuse to answer that question on the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Senator Welker. As of this moment, are you a member of an es- 
pionage ring seeking to damage the Government of the United States ? 

Mr. Wolff. The purpose of that question can only be to get me 
to invoke the first and fifth, which I will do, but obviously it was only 
for that purpose and not to elicit any positive information. 

Senator Welker. Are you a member of any espionage ring as of this 
moment against the interests of the Government of the United States ? 

Mr. Wolff. I stand on the fifth amendment on this question. 

The Chairman. Mr. Morris. 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Wolff, you have been in the Workers School in 
New York, have you not ? You have been a speaker at the Workers 
School — that is a Communist training school in New York — have you 
not, Mr. Wolff ? 

Mr. Wolff. I refuse to answer that on the grounds of the fifth 
amendment. 

Mr. Morris. You have been active in a joint conference against in- 
tervention in Greece and Turkey, have you not? That's in 1947. This 
was a committee formed to protest the intervention on the part of 
the United States Government in Greece and Turkey. 

Mr. Wolff. I don't remember that. 

Mr. Morris. You do not remember that ? 

Mr. Wolff. No, sir. 

Mr. Morris. You have been national organizational director of the 
Civil .Rights Congress? 

Mr. Wolff. Yes ; I have. 

Mr. Morris. How long have you served in that capacity? 

Mr. Wolff. I don't remember the exact length of time. 

Mr. Morris. You have attended New York State conventions of the 
Communist Party and the Young, Communist League? 

Mr. Wolff. I refuse to answer that on the grounds of the fifth 
amendment. 

Mr. Morris. You have been a contributor to a publication known as 
Weekiy Review, in the early forties; specifically on November 4, 1941, 
February 3, 1942, February 10, 1942, February 24, 1942? 

Mr. Wolff. I don't remember that at all. 

Mr. Morris. You don't remember that? 

Mr. Wolfe. No ; I do not. 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Wolff, have you intervened on behalf of any 
Spanish Communists with any officials of the United States Gov- 
ernment ? 

Mr. Wolff. I have intervened, that is, I have pleaded for the lives 
of Spanish Republicans before various Congressmen and officials of 
the United States Government ; yes. 

Mr. Morris. On what occasions ? Who were these Spanish Repub- 
licans that you mentioned; Spanish Republicans? 

Senator Smith. Let us get that straight, 

The Chairman. Yes. But sure and get that straight. 

32918°— 63— pt. 12— — 4 



770 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Mr. Wolff. I am talking about Spanish Republicans, that is right. 
I am sure they would want to keep it straight as well. 

The Chairman. I hope so. 

Mr. Wolff. On many occasions and because of the large number of 
political prisoners that Franco has incarcerated in his jails, and the 
large number that he has had executed, I can't specify who and what 
and where, but I know that I was, and am, and will continue to be, 
active in their behalf to the best of my ability, to save the lives of these 
people who fought against fascism in Franco Spain. I trust there will 
be people in America and elsewhere in the world who will join me in 
this fight, and have, as a matter of fact. 

Senator Welker. While you were in Spain with the Abraham Lin- 
coln Brigade that you testified about, did you have any knowledge of 
any American citizens who rebelled against the Communist forces 
and were executed ? 

Mr. Wolff. The Communist forces ? 

Senator Welker. Yes; the forces that you were trying to help in 
Spain. 

Mr. Wolff. You mean the forces I was trying to help, or the Com- 
munist forces? 

Senator Welker. The Communist forces, yes. 

Mr. Wolff. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of the 
fifth amendment. 

Senator Welker. Did you have anything to do with the execution 
of any American citizens in Spain ? 

Mr. Wolff. I refuse to answer that question on the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Morris. You mean you cannot give a denial to the Senator's 
question on that? 

Mr. Wolff. I don't know the meaning of the question. I have no 
advance knowledge of any sort from which this kind of a question 
could stem. Obviously in an open and in a judicial proceeding I 
would probably be in a position to answer it. 

Senator Butler. Then why did you say "No" ? 

Senator Welker. I asked you if you had any knowledge of any 
American citizens being executed. 

Mr. Wolff. I refuse to answer that question. 

Senator Welker. By revolting against the Abraham Lincoln Bri- 
gade that you were once a member of. Will you answer that? Did 
you have any such knowledge? 

Mr. Wolff. By revolting against the Abraham Lincoln Brigade? 

Senator Welker. Yes; by refusing to fight with the Abraham 
Lincoln Brigade after they got over in Spain. 

Mr. Wolff. I'll stand on the fifth amendment, on that question. 

Senator Welker. And I will ask you then again this further ques- 
tion : Did you have anything to do with their execution ? 

Mr. Wolff. I'll stand on the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Wolff, what is your present occupation? 

Mr. Wolff. I am a painter, an artist. 

Mr. Morris. An artist? 

Mr. Wolff. That's right. 

Mr. Morris. What has been your principal source of livelihood dur- 
ing the past year, your painting? 

Mr. Wolff. No; unfortunately not; odd jobs that I have held. At 
the present moment, I am unemployed. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 771 

Mr. Morris. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Wolff. I thought we went through that. 

The Chairman. The witness lias answered that question. 

Mr. Wolff. I have answered that question. 

The Chairman. He refused to answer on the fifth amendment. 
Are there any further questions? 

Mr. Morris. How long did you remain in the Office of Strategic 
Services ? 

Mr. Wolff. Roughly, I'd say, about 10 to 12 months. I don't re- 
member the exact span of time. 

Mr. Morris. And you served where ? 

Mr. Wolff. In Italy. 

Mr. Morris. When you went to Spain, did you apply for a passport 
in your own name? 

Mr. Wolff. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Morris. And do you still have a passport? 

Mr. Wolff. No ; I do not. 

Mr. Morris. Has it lapsed, or have you 

Mr. Wolff. When I returned from Spain, it was taken from me 
by officials of the State Department. 
* Mr. Morris. Have you reapplied for a passport since that time? 

Mr. Wolff. No ; I have not. 

Mr. Morris. Have you been out of the country since your service in 
OSS? 

Mr. Wolff. Since my service in the Army? 

Mr. Morris. In the Office of Strategic Services, yes. 

Mr. Wolff. No ; I have not. 

Mr. Morris. I have no more questions. 

The Chairman. Are there any further questions? 

Senator Smith. Yes. 

The Chairman. Senator Smith. 

Senator Smith. I believe you said at the present time you are un- 
employed. 

Mr. Wolff. That is right. 

Senator Smith. For how long a period have you been unemployed ? 

Mr. Wolff. For roughly 4 months. 

Senator Smith. Have you had any other periods of unemployment 
during the past, we will say, 5 years ? 

Mr. Wolff. I beg your pardon ? 

Senator Smith. Have you had any other periods of unemployment 
during the past 5 years ? 

Mr. Wolff. I imagine I have had ; yes. 

Senator Smith. During the past 5 years have you received any 
compensation in any way, directly or indirectly, from the Communist 
Party or any Communists ? 

Mr. Wolff. I refuse to answer that question on the fifth amend- 
ment. 

The Chairman. You were the commanding officer of the Abraham 
Lincoln Brigade in Spain ? 

Mr. Wolff. Yes ; I was. 

The Chairman. What rank did you hold ? 

Mr. Wolff. I finally was a major in command of the 58th battalion. 

Mr. Morris. How many men served under you? 

Mr. Wolff. At full strength, the battalion numbered 800. 



772 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

The Chairman. Are there any further questions ? If not, you will 
be excused. 

Call the next witness. 

Mr. Morris. Helen B. Tenney. 

The Chairman. Miss Tenney, will you be sworn to testify ? 

Mr. Scheiner. Mr. Chairman, before Miss Tenney is sworn, I would 
like to say that in every sense Miss Tenney objects to the business of 
photographs, moving pictures, television, and so on, and I would like 
to ask that they desist. 

The Chairman. They may take the pictures before she starts testi- 
fying and when she starts testifying I will ask that cameramen and 
photographers not to take any pictures of the witness while testifying. 

You still have the privilege, of course, to take the pictures of the 
room, the committee, and anything but Miss Tenney, the witness. 

Do you object now ? 

Mr. Scheiner. We do object. We would like them to stop. 

The Chairman. Gentlemen, please desist. 

Will you be sworn to testify ? Will you stand and be sworn ? Do 
you swear that the testimony you give in this hearing will be the truth, 
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Miss Tenney. Yes. 

TESTIMONY OF HELEN B. TENNEY, NEW YORK, N. Y., ACCOMPANIED 
BY FRANK SCHEINER, ATTORNEY AT LAW, NEW YORK, N. Y. 

The Chairman. Where do you reside, Miss Tenney ? 

Miss Tenney. In New York City. 

The Chairman. At what address ? 

Miss Tenney. 2 Horatio Street. 

The Chairman. I believe the record shows you are present with 
your attorney. 

Mr. Scheiner. That's right. Do you want me to note my appear- 
ance here ? 

The Chairman. It is noted, sir. 

Proceed, Mr. Morris, with the questioning of the witness. 

Mr. Morris. Miss Tenney, have you been an editorial analyst in 
the Office of Strategic Services ? 

Miss Tenney. I decline to answer the question and I stand on my 
constitutional rights in declining. 

Mr. Morris. Miss Tenney, you know that it is a matter of record, 
do you not, that you were an analyst, an editorial analyst, chief of sec- 
tion, with the Office of Strategic Services, and that you worked for 
that organization between November 8, 1943, and July 19, 1946 ? 

Mr. Scheiner. Mr. Morris, may I say that your question was in- 
audible over here? 

The Chairman. Mr. Reporter, would you please restate the ques- 
tion. The bell was ringing. Please restate the question. 

(The record was then read by the reporter.) 

Mr. Morris. I would like to put in the record the statement of 
service of Helen B. Tenney. 

The Chairman. Will you answer the question just read by the 
reporter ? 

Miss Tenney. Yes. I decline to answer. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 773 

Seiicator Smith. You mean to say you decline to answer whether or 
not you worked at the Office of Strategic Services ? 

Miss Tenney. Yes ; I decline. 

Senator Smith. That was United States Government employment ; 
was it not ? 

The Chairman. You have counsel, Miss Tenney, and I want to tell 
you this : That you do not mean to tell this committee that a truthful 
answer to that question might tend to incriminate you and therefore 
you want to exercise your privilege under the fifth amendment not 
to testify ? 

Mr. Scheiner. Mr. Chairman, your reference to counsel just recalls 
this to me: That in executive session Miss Tenney has stated the 
grounds for her declination. I would like the record to show that 
when she declines right now to answer, she is declining for the same 
reasons that were given to you in this hearing in executive session. 

Senator Smith. That may be what you say. 

Mr. Scheiner. You can ask her and see whether she will say that. 

Senator Smith. You are prompting 

Mr. Scheiner. I am not prompting at all. 

Senator Smith. That is precisely what you are doing. 

Mr. Scheiner. I am sorry to disagree with you, 

Senator Smith. We will have to put you out of here if you put 
words in the witness' mouth. All we want are truthful answers and 
we do not want the answers from you. 

Mr. Scheiner. I'm sorry, I am not putting any words in her mouth 
and you are not getting any answers from me. I asked you to get 
something on the record and you know from her attendance here this 
morning earlier just what her posiiton is with regard to declinations. 

Senator Smith. It is also very apparent that Miss Tenney is very 
nervous and very disturbed. 

Mr. Scheiner. Very well ; don't accuse me of putting words in her 
mouth. 

The Chairman. You are here by virtue of a privilege and not as 
a right. When this committee asks questions of Miss Tenney, we 
want her answers and we do not want any answers of her attorney. 
However, she does have the privilege. If she does not understand 
the question and if she wants legal advice, then she may consult you, 
but please let her answer the question. 

Now, proceed with the questioning. Would you answer the ques- 
tion, or have you forgotten it? 

Miss Tenney. I have not forgotten it. I decline to answer the 
question and I stand on the fifth amendment and on the Constitution 
in declining. 

The Chairman. All right, Miss Tenney. 

Senator Smith. I would like to ask Miss Tenney a question. Do 
you know what the Office of Strategic Services was, just "yes" or 
"no"? I am not trying to trip you at all. I am just trying to find 
out if you recall what the Office of Strategic Services was. 

Miss Tenney. I decline to answer the question. 

Senator Smith. Did you decline to accept your paycheck from the 
Office of Strategic Services ? 

Miss Tenney. I decline to answer the question on the same grounds 
already stated and other declination. 



774 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Senator Welker. Counsel, you are an able lawyer or you would not 
be here. Certainly you know that the witness is getting mighty, 
mighty close to being in contempt and I hope you have a conference 
with her on little immaterial questions like that. Do not put her 
up against the position of forcing the committee to cite her for con- 
tempt. 

Mr. Scheiner. Well, I'm glad you paid me that compliment. I 
don't know whether it's justified. I feel that Miss Tenney understands 
the reasons why she is exercising her constitutional privilege and in 
doing so why she has to take that chance. 

Senator Welker. If it has your approval, Counselor, that is all we 
want to know. We did not want to mislead the witness at all. 

Mr. Scheiner. If you are going to ask that her exercise of the priv- 
ilege stand on my approval, then I'll answer as the questions are asked. 

Senator Welker. I asked you if you advised her of her rights. 

Mr. Scheiner. I advised her of her constitutional rights. 

The Chairman. All right. Proceed with the questioning. 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Chairman, I would like to have Mr. Mandel iden- 
tify the statement of Federal service which shows that Helen B. Ten- 
ney — you are Helen B. Tenney, are you not? 

Miss Tenney. Yes. 

Mr. Morris. Held the position of editorial analyst, chief of section, 
up to 1946, and that she first started as a clerk in the OSS on November 
8, 1943. 

The Chairman. All right; proceed. 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Mandel, will you identify that document? 

Mr. Mandel. This statement of Federal service has been forwarded 
to the committee by the United States Civil Service Commission and 
is dated June 12, 1953. 

Mr. Morris. May that go in the record ? 

The Chairman. It may go in the record and become a part of the 
record. 

(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 250" and fol- 
lows:) 

Exhibit No. 250 

United States Civil Service Commission, 

Service Record Division, 
Washington 25, D. C. June 12, 1953. 

statement of federal service 

Notice to individuals : This record should be preserved. Additional copies 
of service histories cannot be furnished due to limited personnel' in the Com- 
mission. This record may be presented to appointing officers for their inspec- 
tion. 

Name : Tenney, Helen B. 
Date of birth : June 16, 1910. 

Authority for original appointment (examination from which appointed or 
other authority — Executive Order, law, or other exemption) ; Executive Order 
9063, regulation V. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 



775 



Effective date 



Nature of action 



Position, grade, salary, etc. 



Nov. 8,1943 

Jan. 14,1944 
Apr. 29,1944 
May 1, 1945 

Sept. 30, 1945 

Oct. 1,1945 

July 19,1946 



War-service appointment 

Reassignment (DC 257, Rev. No. 3)-_. 
Promotion.. 

Promotion (DC 257, Rev. No. 3) 

Separation— Transfer. 

Appointment by transfer (Executive 
Order 9021, Sept. 20, 1945). 

Involuntary separation (reduction in 
force). 



Clerk, CAF-5, $2,000 per annum, Office of 
Strategic Services, Washington, D. C. 

Editorial analyst, P-l, $2,000 per annum. 

Editorial analyst, P-2, $2,000 per annum. 

Editorial analyst (chief of section), P-3, $3,200 per 
annum. 

Editorial analyst (chief of section), P-3, $3,040 per 
annum. 

Editorial analyst (chief of section) P-3, $3,040 per 
annum, War, Strategic Services Unit, Wash- 
ington, D. C. 

Editorial analyst (chief of section), P-3, $4,275 
per annum. 



A. M. Deem, 

Chief, Audit Section. 

The above transcript of service history does not include salary changes, intra- 
agency transfers within a organizational unit not involving changes from one 
official headquarters or duty station to another, and promotions or demotions, 
since Federal agencies are not required to report such actions to the Commission. 

Mr. Morris. Do you know of the testimony of Elizabeth Bentley to 
the effect that you were a member of an espionage ring during the war ? 

Miss Tenney. I decline to answer that question. 

Mr. Morris. I am not asking you whether it was true. The par- 
ticular question is, Do you know that she had testified that you were 
a member of an espionage ring in Washington during the war ? 

Miss Tenney. I decline to answer the question for reasons already 
stated. 

Mr. Morris. Even as to whether or not you know that? You feel 
that answering that question honestly would incriminate you? 

Miss Tenney. I want to speak to counsel. 

The Chairman. You may. 

Mr. Morris. By the way, what is your name ? 

Mr. Scheiner. I have stated it previously. The name is Frank 
Schemer, S-c-h-e-i-n-e-r. The address is 40l Broadway, New York 
City. 

The Chairman. You may consult Mr. Scheiner. 

Miss Tenney (after conferring with counsel). I beg your pardon. 

The Chairman. Are you ready to answer the question ? 

Miss Tenney. I decline to answer the question, the last question I 
heard. What was the last question ? 

Mr. Morris. Do you know that she testified ? 

Miss Tenney. I decline to answer the question on the same grounds. 

Mr. Morris. Were you in the Spanish Division of OSS ? 

Miss Tenney. I decline to answer the quest-ion. 

Mr. Morris. Did you work in the Balkan Division of OSS? 

Miss Tenney. I decline to answer the question on the same grounds. 

The Chairman. Let the record show each time when she declines 
under the fifth amendment that her answer might tend to incrimi- 
nate her. 

Miss Tenney. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Morris. I have just one more question. We have here an appli- 
cation for Federal employment of Helen Barrett Tenney. Ques- 
tion 17: 

Do you advocate or have you ever advocated, or are you now or have you ever 
been a member of any organization that advocates the overthrow of the Govern- 
ment of the United States by force and violence? 



776 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

And the applicant answered "No." Were you at that time a member 
of the Communist Party, Miss Tenney ? 

Miss Tenney. I decline to answer the question on the grounds 
already given. 

The Chairman. Miss Tenney, you are called here before this com- 
mittee. You could be of great help to this committee and great help 
to your country, rather than refusing to answer under the fifth 
amendment, if you would just tell us honestly the answers to these 
questions. Will you not please do that ? 

Miss Tenney. To what questions ? 

The Chairman. To these questions propounded to you. 

Miss Tenney. Well, I answered the questions or declined, sir. 

The Chairman. Are you now a member of the Communist Party, 
Miss Tenney ? 

Miss Tenney. I decline to answer the question. 

The Chairman. Are you afraid to answer? Have you been 
threatened some way if you came before this committee and told the 
truth? Have you been threatened in any way? Has anyone 
threatened you ? 

Miss Tenney. I would like to speak to counsel. 

The Chairman. You may speak to your counsel. 

Miss Tenney (after conferring with counsel). Would you repeat 
the question ? 

The Chairman. Have you been threatened or intimidated in any 
way that if you came before this committee and told the truth, you 
would be injured or harmed ? Have you been threatened in any way ? 

Miss Tenney. I haven't been threatened. 

The Chairman. You have not? 

Miss Tenney. I'm very nervous in your committee. 

The Chairman. I notice you are nervous. That is why I ask you. 
You are here to answer questions truthfully. You have counsel here, 
but what I would like to know, from your demeanor on the witness 
stand — is whether or not anyone has threatened you. If you came 
here and told the truth, would you be harmed in any way? 

Miss Tenney. Threatened ? No. 

The Chairman. You have not been threatened. All right. 

Mr. Morris. Would you identify that signature as your signature, 
Miss Tenney ? Counsel has the application there. 

Miss Tenney (after having been shown document). I refuse to 
answer. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 777 

Mr. Morris. You refuse to acknowledge that that is your signa- 
ture for the same reason 1 Let me see that for a minute. 

Miss Tenney. Could I ask for time out ? 

The Chairman. Yes, you may consult your counsel at any time, 
Miss Tenney. 

(Witness confers with counsel.) 

The Chairman. All right, Senator Welker. Do you have a 
question? 

Senator Welker. Miss Tenney, have you ever used any name other 
than that of Helen B. Tenney ? 

Miss Tenney. I decline to answer the question. 

Senator Welker. Have you had any employment in the Govern- 
ment or any place else in the last 15 years? 

Miss Tenney. Any place ? 

Senator Welker. Have you been employed by the Government or 
in any branch of industry or business in the last 15 years? 

Miss Tenney. I decline to answer the question. 

The Chairman. Mr. Morris. 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Chairman, I would just like to introduce this 
whole application of Federal employment in the record. This shows 
that prior to the time of her working, this witness, for the OSS, that 
she was working for an organization called the Short Wave Research, 
Inc., 730 Fifth Avenue. That was a special personnel agency under 
contract to the Office of War Information. Then a description of 
her duties with Office of Strategic Services mentions here that her 
job was administrative assistant in personnel adjustments for em- 
ployees at the OWI ; interviews in three languages of applicants and 
new personnel; coordination of liquidation proceedings; correspond- 
ence ; responsible for office files, personnel records ; switchboard ; some 
research. 

That apparently is a description of her assignment with the Short 
Wave Research, Inc., which apparently was under a special personnel 
agency contract to the Office of War Information. Apparently, Mr. 
Chairman, in view of the fact that the witness is not answering any 
questions in connection with this, I suggest, we simply put it in the 
record and let it speak for itself. 

The Chairman. It may go in the record and become a part of the 
record. 

(The application referred to was marked exhibit No. 251 and 
follows:) 



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3291S — 53— pt. 12- 



786 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

[ Con tin nation sheet] 

Helen Tenney, 150 East 02nd St., New York City. Born : June 16, 1910. 

Cue Magazine, 8 East 89th St., NYC, January 1940-Mareh 1941: Information 
and promotion; reports on public inquiries to circulation, editorial and adver- 
tising department. $25 per week. Project terminated. Supervisor : Allan E. 
Aird, Business Manager. 

Spanish Refugee Relief Campaign, 381 Fourth Avenue, NYC (defunct) : Sec- 
retary to special project for relief and resettlement of refugee physicians and 
scientists. Office correspondence and compilation of curricula vitae. $21 per 
week. Project terminated because of war conditions. Supervisor: Douglas 
Jacobs, Campaign Manager. 

1938-June 1939: Secretarial and language studies. Free-lance publicity and 
promotion. Private (unpublished) writings. 

September 1937-December 1987: Research assistant to Jay Allan (c/o OWI) 
on chronology of Spanish Civil War and other projects. $30 per week. Em- 
ployment terminated with projects when he went abroad. 

Center Restaurants, Inc., 30 Rockefeller Plaza, NYC, February 1936-September 
1937: Assistant to Publicity Director. Writing of releases; accumulation of 
material for publicity. Correspondence. Direct mail announcements. $25-$30 
per week. Resigned because of difficulties of hours of work. Supervisor : 
Edward M. Seay, Publicity Director. 

Rockefeller ('enter, Inc., 30 Rockefeller Plaza, NYC, June 1934-February 
1936: Information clerk, cashier, receptionist on development promotion. $21- 
$22.50 per week. Supervisor, Mr. Joseph Vermilye (also Mr. Victor Sturgeon). 
Transferred to next position. 

1930-34: theatrical work, stage and radio. 

Note. — Employed free-lance by Radio Division, Coordinator of Intev-American 
Affairs, NYC, for research, summer, 1943. Supervisor: Miss Gabrielle Swados. 

The Chairman. Miss Tenney, what languages do you speak? 

Miss Tenney. I decline to answer the question. 

The Chairman. Are there any further questions? 

Senator Smith. I would like to ask Iter this. Miss Tenney, before 
you came before the committee this morning, were you given any kind 
of medicine, dope, or .sedatives? 

Miss Tenney. Medicine? 

Senator Smith. Yes. Have you taken any kind of medicine or 
drugs this morning before you came here to testify? 

Miss Tenney. No. 

The Chairman. Are there any further questions? If not, Miss 
Tenney, you will be excused. 

Call the next witness, please. 

Mr. Morris. The next witness is Irving Fajans. 

The Chairman. Will you be sworn to testify? 

Mr. Fajans. Before I do, Senator, I request the same thing, the 
cameras be turned off me on you, and may I also request that there be 
no news — it's kind of late for that now. 

The Chairman. When the witness is testifying, please do not take 
pictures, and please keep the cameras off the witness. 

Mr. Fajans. They have accomplished the fact. He is going to take 
another one in a minute. Would you ask him not to take it? 

The Chairman. Yes. Please do not do that. 

Please be sworn and then if you have a request of the committee, 
we will hear you. Do you swear that the testimony you give in this 
hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 
so help you God ? 

Mr. Fajans. I so swear. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 787 

TESTIMONY OF IRVING FAJANS, NEW YORK, N. Y. 

The Chairman. What was your other request ? 

Mr. Fajans. I request, too, that not alone the cameras be turned 
off; that the microphone be turned off. I mean the stuff that they 
are recording. 

The Chairman. We want this recording for the purposes of this 
committee, and your request there will be refused. 

Proceed with the questioning, Mr. Morris. 

Mr. Morris. Will you give your full name and address to the 
reporter? 

Mr. Fajans. My name is Irving Fajans. 

Mr. Morris. Will you spell that? F-a-j-a-n-s; is that it? 

Mr. Fajans. That is correct. 

Mr. Morris. Where do you reside? 

Mr. Fajans. My home address was given to the committee in execu- 
tive session this morning. 

The Chairman. We have his address. The record shows that. 

Mr. Morris. What is your present occupation ? 

Mr. Fajans. I am a writer. 

Mr. Morris. For whom do you write? 

Mr. Fajans. I have written for various publications. In addition 
to this, I have just last year collaborated on a book which was pub- 
lished. 

Mr. Morris. What book was that? 

Mr. Fajans. The book is the Heart of Spain. 

Mr. Morris. The Heart of Spain ? 

Mr. Fajans. That is correct. 

Mr. Morris. With whom did you collaborate in that book? 

Mr. Fajans. Mr. Alvah Vessie. 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Fajans, have you served with the Office of Stra- 
tegic Services? 

Mr. Fajans. We were through this this morning, Mr. Morris. 

The Chairman. That was in executive session. We are now in 
open session, and we want the record open. 

Mr. Fajans. I will repeat some of the things. Before I answer 
that question, I should like to inform Mr. Morris and the committee 
that upon leaving the OSS I signed an oath of secrecy whereby I 
swore I would never reveal anything which I learned or came to my 
knowledge while serving in the OSS. 

The Chairman. That was not the question. The question was : Did 
you serve in the OSS ? 

Mr. Fajans. I served in the OSS. 

The Chairman. All right. Answer the question. 

Mr. Fajans. I just did. 

Mr. Morris. What were the circumstances leading up to your em- 
ployment in the Office of Strategic Services ? 

Mr. Fajans. I am going to say two things at this point. In the 
first place, I was not employed by the Office of Strategic Services. I 
was a soldier in the Army. 

Mr. Morris. And you were assigned to the OSS; is that right? 

Mr. Fajans. I was an infantry soldier and an infantry officer. I 
served with the 42d Division and with the 3d Division. I have many 
battle citations and combat stars. I was wounded on the Anzio 



788 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

beachhead. I was assigned to the OSS. However, I am not clear at 
this moment just how far I can go without violating the oath of se- 
crecy which I swore to in the OSS, in any of the circumstances sur- 
rounding my entry into the OSS or of anything which occurred in 
the OSS while I was not in the OSS. 

Senator Welker. Mr. Chairman, may I have a question? 

The Chairman. Senator Welker. 

Senator Welker. Before you joined the OSS, were you a member 
of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Fajans. Senator, I am going to refuse to answer that question 
on the grounds of the first and fifth amendments. 

The Chairman. Are you a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Fajans. Now, Senator, I am going to refuse to answer that 
question on the grounds of the first and fifth amendments. 

The Chairman. This committee, of course, recognizes your refusal 
not to answer the question under the fifth amendment, but not under 
the first amendment. 

Senator Welker. Have you ever engaged in espionage activities 
against the Government of the United States? 

Mr. Fajans. I am going to refuse to answer that question under 
the first and fifth amendments. 

The Chairman. The same record, Mr. Reporter. 

Mr. Morris. In what countries did you serve with the Office of 
Strategic Services? 

Mr. Fajans. Senator, before we got into the OSS, the questions on 
the OSS, I stated to this committee that I had sworn to an oath of 
secrecy not to reveal any of my actions, activities, or any knowledge 
which came to me as a result of my service in the OSS. 

The Chairman. We are not asking for any knowledge. We are 
asking where you served or what countries you served in. 

Mr. Fajans. My interpretation of that would be that the places 
where I served come within the province of the OSS and therefore 
are intelligence which may or may not have anything to do or may 
not have any direct significance. 

The Chairman. I direct that you answer the question. 

Mr. Fajans. I am going to have to stand on the first and fifth 
amendments. 

Mr. Morris. You know you cannot invoke the fifth amendment un- 
less your reason for invoking the fifth amendment is the fact that you 
feel by answering the question honestly you would be putting on the 
record facts or a link in a series of circumstances that would lead to 
your indictment? 

Mr. Fajans. I am not a lawyer and I am not represented by coun- 
sel. It may be your opinion that I cannot invoke the first and fifth 
amendments, and that may be so. I don't know. But I will invoke 
it and I will say this : I don't know what evidence this committee has 
against General Donovan or anybody else in the OSS. 

Mr. Morris. His name has not come up in this hearing. 

Mr. Fajans. He was the head of the OSS during the war. I mean 
the public head of the OSS. Let's say his name was in the news- 
papers. 

Senator Welker. I would say we are interested in a witness by the 
name of Irving Fajans right now. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 789 

Mr. Fajans. I don't remember where we started now. What was 
the original question ? 

Mr. Morris. When you were working in the OSS, what countries 
you served in. 

Mr. Fajans. Yes. Then we got into this business of invoking the 
first and fifth amendments. 

Senator Smith. Did he say? 

The Chairman. He refused to answer under the first and fifth 
amendment. The committee recognizes his right under the fifth 
amendment. Mr. Morris explained it to him since he is without coun- 
sel. We do not want to take advantage of you. Do you understand 
Mr. Morris' explanation? 

Mr. Fajans. By and large. I don't understand the legal techni- 
calities and ramifications of this, but by and large, I understand what 
Mr. Morris is saying. 

Senator Welker. Let me ask you this question : Have you ever con- 
ferred or talked to anybody about your rights before this committee 
before you came here? 

Mr. Fajans. I beg your pardon ? 

Senator Welker. Have you conferred or talked with anyone who 
advised you as to taking advantage of the fifth amendment or the first 
amendment ? 

Mr. Fajans. Senator, I am not going to answer that question. I 
am not going to answer it on the grounds of the first and fifth amend- 
ment. 

Senator Welker. Then you perhaps have had a little advice that 
you do not want to tell the committee about. 

Mr. Fajans. Senator, that is your statement ; that is not mine. 

Senator Welker. You were pleading here a moment ago that you 
came here alone without counsel. I asked you if you had not been 
advised as to your rights before this committee and how to act. Then 
you refused to answer upon the grounds that your answer might tend 
to incriminate you. 

I have no further questions. 

Senator Smith. I have one. 

The Chairman. Senator Smith. 

Senator Smith. Did you apply for service in the OSS ? 

Mr. Fajans. Senator, I am going to refuse to answer that question 
on the grounds of the first and fifth amendment. 

Senator Smith. With whom did you confer when you went into 
the work of the OSS ? 

Mr. Fajans. Senator, I am going to refuse to answer that question 
on the grounds of the first and fifth amendments and remind the Sen- 
ator that I did swear an oath of secrecy to the United States Govern- 
ment. 

Senator Smith. And the reason you do not want to answer that 
question is because you were planted in the OSS by some organiza- 
tions that were inimical to the United States Government in their 
activities; is that right? 

Mr. Fajans. Senator, I am not going to answer that question on 
the grounds of the first and fifth. I would say that we have had a 
very poor intelligence agency which would allow anybody to be 
planted within it. 



790 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Senator Smith. I am inclined to think there were times when there 
were people in there that were very poor. 

Mr. Fajans. I can say this for the Senator's information 

Senator Smith. Will yon tell us how you got into the OSS, the sim- 
ple honest truth as to how you got in the OSS? 

Mr. Fajans. Senator, I am going to refuse to answer that question. 

Senator Smith. I thought you were. 

Mr. Fajans. I would direct the Senator, if I may 

The Chairman. You have answered the question. 

Mr. Fajans. Mr. Morris has all the records. He knows how I got 
in the OSS. 

Senator Smith. I do not know whether he has what you know 
or not. 

Mr. Fajans. He can put them in the record. He knows how I got 
into the OSS. There is no mystery about it, but I will not testify to 
it on the grounds of the first and fifth. 

Senator Welker. I think it would be very beneficial if counsel 
does have that information to have it in the record. 

Mr. Morris. I do not have the information as to how he got into 
the OSS. 

Senator Welker. Very well, then. 

Since counsel does not have it, will you favor us by giving it to us? 

Mr. Fajans. I will refuse to answer that question on the grounds 
of the first and fifth amendments. I would suggest to counsel since 
he was able to get the records of Helen B. Tenney, I don't see any 
great difficulty in getting my record from the OSS and he can put it in 
the record. 

The Chairman. If we had the record, Mr. Fajans, it would not 
necessarily answer the question that Senator Smith propounded to 
you. Whom did you talk to? Whom did you confer with about 
going into the OSS? The record would not show that. That is the 
question that has been asked you and that is the information this 
committee would like to have. Will you not cooperate to that extent ? 

Mr. Fajans. Senator, I'm sorry, I cannot cooperate with the 
committee. I will refuse to answer that question on the grounds of 
the first and fifth amendments. 

Senator Smith. Where were you born ? 

Mr. Fajans. I was born in New York City. 

Senator Smith. What were your connections with any of the people 
that are now behind the Iron Curtain ? I refer to family connections. 

Mr. Fajans. I am sorry; I don't quite understand what you are 
trying to say, connection with any of the people. What people? 

Senator Smith. Soviet people. 

Mr. Fajans. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of 
the first and fifth amendments. 

The Chairman. Mr. Morris, proceed. 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Fajans, you are an official of the Veterans of the 
Abraham Lincoln Brigade, are you not? 

Mr. Fajans. Mr. Morris, I am going to refuse to answer that ques- 
tion on the grounds of the first and fifth amendments and would like 
to inform this committee at this time that the Veterans of the Abraham 
Lincoln Brigade are subject to an action in the SACB Board. As I 
understand it, an unfavorable decision by that board will invoke 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 791 

penalties upon the membership of that organization. Therefore, I 
decline to answer on the grounds of the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Morris. Have you had any training under any foreign govern- 
ment? 

Mr. Fajans I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of 
the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Morris. When you were in Spain — you were in Spain, were 
you not, Mr. Fajans? 

Mr. Fajans. I was in Spain. 

Mr. Morris. When were you in Spain ? 

Mr. Fajans. I was in Spain in 1937, 1938, part of 1938. 

Mr. Morris. What rank did you have in the Spanish Republican 
Army ? 

Mr. Fajans. I was a lieutenant. 

Mr. Morris. Were you a member of the Communist Party at that 
time ? 

Mr. Fajans. I am going to refuse to answer that question on the 
grounds of the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Morris. As a lieutenant in the Spanish Republican Army, did 
you receive any military training from a foreign government, that is, 
a government other than the United States Government? 

Mr. Fajans. I am going to refuse to answer that question on the 
grounds of the first and fifth amendments. 

Mr. Morris. Have you registered in accordance with the terms of 
the Subversives Activities Control Act ? 

Mr. Fajans. I don't know what the provisions of the Subversive 
Activities Control Act are. I have not registered under the provi- 
sions of any act that I know of. 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Fajans, section 20 of this act under the heading 
of "An act to require the registration of certain persons employed 
by agencies to disseminate propaganda in the United States, and for 
other purposes," has a subsection (5) which now reads, "any person 
who has knowledge of or has received instruction or assignment in the 
espionage, counterespionage, or sabotage service or tactics of a gov- 
ernment of a foreign country," and it is in that connection the ques- 
tion is being asked. Have you registered? 

Mr. Fajans. I have already told you I have not registered, Mr. 
Morris. As a matter of fact, is that the McCarran Act routine ? 

Mr. Morris. It is part of the McCarran Act. 

Mr. Fajans. I have just told you that the organization itself is 
subject to an action there. The outcome of that action has not been 
decided. 

Mr. Morris. Did you apply for a passport when you went to Spain? 

Mr. Fajans. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Morris. Did you get a passport in your own name ? 

Mr. Fajans. Yes ; I did. 

Mr. Morris. Was that passport turned over to the United States 
State Department when you returned? 

Mr. Fajans. Yes ; it was. 

Mr. Morris. Have you obtained one since ? 

Mr. Fajans. No ; I have not. 

Senator Welker. Mr. Fajans, have you ever used any name other 
than that of Irving Fajans? 



792 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Mr. Fajans. I have used the name of Irving Henri as a pen name. 
I haven't used that since 1935. 

Senator Welker. That is the only time you have used any fictitious 
or false name ? 

Mr. Fajans. That is correct. 

The Chairman. You are excused. 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Carson. 

Mr. Carson. As a radio and television critic who has constantly 
written publicly opposing television and radio and newsreels in con- 
gressional and senatorial hearings, I respectfully request that those 
media be forbidden to operate here when I am on the witness stand. 

The Chairman. When you are on the witness stand, you will not be 
interfered by photographers or cameramen, and I will ask the camera- 
men not to put the cameras on you. 

Mr. Carson. I heard the chairman tell the previous witness that 
tape recordings are here for the information of the committee. I 
respectfully submit that no recordings of that kind be turned over 
for broadcast. 

The Chairman. Your request there will be denied. Will you be 
sworn to testify? 

Mr. Carson. I will, sir. 

The Chairman. Do you swear that the testimony you give in this 
hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, 
so help you God? 

Mr. Carson. I do, sir. 

TESTIMONY OF SAUL CARSON, NEW YORK, N. Y. 

The Chairman. State your full name to the committee. 

Mr. Carson. Saul Carson. 

The Chairman. Where do you reside, Mr. Carson? 

Mr. Carson. New York City. 

The Chairman. What is your business or profession? 

Mr. Carson. I am a radio-television critic. 

The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Morris, with the questioning of the 
witness. 

Mr. Carson. Mr. Chairman, may I once more see if I cannot make 
myeelf clear, sir? I do that with utter respect for the committee. 
I have written publicly objecting to broadcasting of congressional 
and senatorial committees. I request, sir, with uttermost respect, to 
the committee, and, as a matter of fact, to my colleagues in these 
various meetings, that tape recordings of this hearing when I testify 
shall not be turned over for broadcasting. 

The Chairman. This committee. of course needs these tape record- 
ing and wants them. As a matter of fact, the entire record of this 
proceding is being taken down by an official reporter, which is cus- 
tomary, and we will have to decline your request. 

Mr. Carson. But for broadcast, sir, please. 

The Chairman. We will be the judge of that. 

Senator Smith. That is right. 

The Chairman. Proceed. 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Carson, were you an employee of the Office of War 
Information during the war ? 

Mr. Carson. Yes, sir. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 793 

Mr. Morris. What job did you have? 

Mr. Carson. Well, I think my first job was — I don't remember 
whether my title was first script writer or script editor. I think it 
was the latter, but I'm not sure; also propaganda analyst. I think 
there was a form of title called field representative. 

Mr. Morris. How did you get your job with the Office of War Infor- 
mation, Mr. Carson? 

Mr. Carson. I applied for it, sir. 

Mr. Morris. At the time of your application for this job with the 
Office of War Information, were you a member of the Communist 
Party, Mr. Carson ? 

Mr. Carson. No, sir. 

Mr. Morris. Had you been just prior to your application a member 
of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Carson. No, sir. 

Mr. Morris. Have you been a member of the Communist Party 
under the alias of Frank Leonard ? 

Mr. Carson. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the fifth 
amendment, sir. Besides, sir, that's a loaded question. You got two 
questions. 

Senator Smith. May we ask him right there how long before he 
became an employee of the Office of War Information had he been a 
Communist ? 

Mr. Carson. I decline to answer that, sir, on the grounds of the 
fifth amendment that it might tend to incriminate me. 

Mr. Morris. Have you ever used the name Frank Leonard? 

Mr. Carson. I decline to answer that question on the grounds it 
might tend to incriminate me under the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Morris. Have you been a contributor to the New Masses, Mr. 
Carson ? 

Mr. Carson. In the sense that once the New Masses printed an 
article of mine, if you interpret that 

Mr. Morris. I see. You did not write expressly for the New 
Masses ? 

Mr. Carson. No, sir. 

Mr. Morris. They took an article of yours and reprinted it ? 

Mr. Carson. Once an article of mine appeared in the New Masses. 

Mr. Morris. Where had you originally written the article? For 
what publication had you originally written the article ? 

Mr. Carson. I had written the article in an effort to sell it to var- 
ious magazines, that is, to some magazines. 

Mr. Morris. Who bought it? 

Mr. Carson. No one bought it. 

Mr. Morris. How did it get to the New Masses ? 

Mr. Carson. Would you like me to go into the details of that? I 
will be glad to. I was writing a biography of a great American fig- 
ure, Frederick Douglas. I was working on the biography and had 
consultation with the agent. The agent suggested along about some 
time before February, which is — Douglas' birthday is celebrated in 
February — it would be a good idea "if you write a magazine article 
on this," and I thought it would too so I took some of my material 
and wrote a magazine article. I sent it around to various magazines 
and it was turned down. Along about that time, I got a telephone 



794 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

call from somebody at the New Masses saying, "I heard you got a 
piece on Frederick Douglas kicking around." I said, "Yes." 

He said, "We would like to see it." I said, "Be glad to let you see 
it, but let's not use it until I consult my agent about it." I sent it to 
them. I think it was within a few days when I was informed that 
not only was the article used, but the name of the piece and my name 
were on the front cover. 

Mr. Morris. Were you asked by the Office of War Information 
whether or not you had been a member of the Communist Party? 

Mr. Carson. I don't remember, sir. 

Senator Welker. Had you been asked, what would have been your 
answer ? 

Mr. Carson. I'm not sure, sir, that I understand the question 
exactly from the way you are phrasing it. I was asked first whether 
I was asked and I said I do not remember. 

Senator Welker. Had you been asked in your application as to 
whether or not you had ever been a member of the Communist Party 
what answer would you have given to the Office of War Information? 

Mr. Carson. I decline to answer that on the grounds that it might 
tend to incriminate me under the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Morris. Senator Welker, the answer to question 26 in this per- 
sonal history statement reads : 

Are you a member of any Communist or German bund organization, or any 
political party or organization which advocates the overthrow of our constitu- 
tional form of government in the United States, or do you have any membership 
in or any affiliation with any group, association, or organization, which ad- 
vocates or lends support to any organization or movement advocating the over- 
throw of our constitutional form of government in the United States? 

And the answer here is "No." 

Senator Welker. I suggest that you hand that to the witness. I 
would like him to identify the handwriting. 

Mr. Morris. It is directed to the present time of his application. 

Senator Welker. Question No. 26, 1 think it is. 

Mr. Carson. What is it I am to identify ? 

Mr. Morris. Is that your personal-history statement? 

Senator Welker. Directing your attention to an exhibit which is 
marked for purposes 

Mr. Carson. May I consult my notes that I made for myself? 

Senator Welker. As soon as I get the answer to the question. 

The Chairman. Let the witness consult his notes. 

Senator Welker. Directing your attention to the exhibit that is 
now being handed to you, I will ask you whether or not that is your 
handwriting. Look at it, please. 

Mr. Carson. What part of it, sir ? 

Senator Welker. Question No. 26, which was just read to you 
by committee counsel. You have not even looked at the exhibit. I 
asked you to look at it and then tell me whether or not it is your 
handwriting. 

Mr. Carson. Yes, sir, that is my handwriting. 

Senator Smith. Before you made the application and wrote that 
answer, you knew you had to answer that question; did you not? 

Before you applied for the job and answered that question, you 
knew that that question was in that application ? 

Mr. Carson. Before I applied for the job? 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 795 

Senator Smith. Yes. 

Mr. Carson. Sir, before I applied for the job, I could not have 
seen the application. 

Senator Smith. Are you certain about that? Did you not know 
what friends of yours had been required to sign? 

Mr. Carson. I'm absolutely certain of that, sir. 

Senator Smith. You had never seen this question before you an- 
swered it there that day ? 

Mr. Carson. I am absolutely certain, sir, that I had not seen a 
copy of that application before I filled it out. 

Senator Smith. Did you know there was such a question in the 
application before you wrote that answer, that is, immediately be- 
fore you wrote that answer ? 

Mr. Carson. I don't remember, sir. I don't think so. 

Senator Smith. The reason I asked you that is, is it not a fact 
that a short while before you answered that question and signed that 
application, you had been a member of the Communist Party and you 
resigned from the Communist Party so that you could answer that 
question without running the risk of perjury? 

Mr. Carson. That is not a fact, sir. 

Senator Smith. Had you belonged to the Communist Party before 
that time ? 

Mr. Carson. Sir, you said just now, a short time before, and I said 
that is not a fact, sir. 

Senator Smith. I asked you : Had you been a member of the Com- 
munist Party when you signed that application? 

Mr. Carson. Under the fifth amendment, again, sir, I must respect- 
fully decline to answer that question. 

Senator Smith. You decline to answer that question ? 

Mr. Carson. Yes, sir. May I point out, Mr. Chairman, that as I 
understood the question, the implication of it was that, oh, say, on 
Tuesday this witness was a Communist and on Saturday or the fol- 
lowing Tuesday he was not and in between he had resigned because 
he was about to fill out that application. 

Mr. Morris. Yes. Some people have done that. 

The Chairman. We have had witnesses before this committee who 
have been members of the Communist Party, but before they went 
into Government employment they made a tactical withdrawal from 
the Communist Party because they knew they would have to sign 
this oath. 

Senator Smith's question was regarding that, whether or not you 
had been a member of the Communist Party and made a tactical 
withdrawal in order to get this job with the Government. 

Mr. Carson. Yes, sir. That was my understanding, sir, and I said 
it was not a fact. In other words, my answer is "No." 

The Chairman. However, when asked the question whether or not 
you had been a member of the Communist Party prior to your making 
this application, you declined to answer under the fifth amendment 
of the Constitution, that your answer might tend to incriminate 
you ; is that not correct ? 

Mr. Carson. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. I just wanted the record to speak the truth. 

Proceed, Mr. Morris. 



796 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Carson, you see the reason the committee is ask- 
ing you this question is that one of the subjects under consideration 
is the adequacy of the forms being used by the Federal agencies, and 
in this case, the question asked you at that time was : "Are you a 
member" as of the time of the writing. And that clearly shows the 
inadequacy of that form in determining whether or not somebody 
has been a member of the Communist Party, and it was about that. 

The Chairman. That is the job of this committee, to look into the 
internal security of this country and this Government. 

Mr. Carson. I understand, sir. 

The Chairman. Are there any further questions? 

Mr. Morris. I have no more questions. 

The Chairman. You will be excused. 

Mr. Carson. May I leave the city? 

The Chairman. Yes, you are excused. 

Senator Smith. There is one question I would like to ask before 
you leave. As to the article of yours that was published in the New 
Masses, did you receive any compensation for that? 

Mr. Carson. None whatsoever, sir. 

Senator Smith. You knew that the New Masses was a Communist 
publication, did you not? 

Mr. Carson. I knew that it was Communist inclined if not Com- 
munist; yes, sir. 

Senator Smith. And you knew that at the time you donated your 
article to them ? 

Mr. Carson. Sir, I did not donate my article to them. 

Senator Smith. You did not get any compensation for it? 

Mr. Carson. I hope, sir, I explained 

Senator Smith. Did you get any compensation? 

Mr. Carson. Sir, I said- 
Senator Smith. Just answer my question. Were you paid anything 
by the New Masses for the publication of your article ? 

Mr. Carson. My dear Senator, with all due respect to you, I am 
a worker in words. Please do not put — you asked me whether I do- 
nated. I know what the word "donate" means. If I donate some- 
thing right here, I am donating it willingly. 

Senator Smith. I am asking you now : Did you receive any com- 
pensation for the publication of your article? 

Mr. Carson. To that my answer has been and is again, "No", sir. 

Senator Smith. So that at the time that you gave them permission, 
if you did give them permission to use your article, you knew that it 
was a Communist publication ? 

Mr. Carson. If you will break down your question, sir. I say that 
with utter respect to the committee, sir. You put two things together. 

Senator Smith. You do not want to give two things at once in one 
answer ? 

Mr. Carson. No, sir. 

Senator Smith. Did you know at the time the New Masses was a 
Communist or Communistic publication? 

Mr. Carson. Yes, sir. 

Senator Smith. All right. Did you receive any compensation for 
your article published therein? 

Mr. Carson. No, sir. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 797 

Senator Smith. Did you give permission to the New Masses to 
publish your article? 

Mr. Carson. No, sir. 

Senator Smith. Is that breaking it clown to your satisfaction ? 

Mr. Carson. Yes, sir. I said, sir, if you please, that I was called 
up by somebody who said, "I would like to see the article." I said, 
"I would be glad to let you see it, but don't use it. I will have to 
check with my agent first," Then, all of a sudden, boom, there it was. 

The Chairman. Are there any further questions ? If not, you will 
be excused. 

Mr. Morris. Senator,, we have two other witnesses here who have 
been heard in executive session. Both of them at the time of the 
service of the subpenas earlier in this week were teachers in New T York 
city colleges. One of them submitted his resignation shortly there- 
after. Both of them before the committee invoked their privilege 
under the fifth amendment as to past membership in the Communist 
Party and denying present membership in the Communist Party. 

Counsel would like to know if it is your wish to hear them in open 
session. 

The Chairman. I do not think it is necessary. We are running 
late now and I do not believe it is necessary. We have the executive 
testimony and we know what the record says. 

Mr. Morris. We have one other witness, Senator. He will be here 
at 2 o'clock this afternoon. 

The Chairman. It depends upon the condition on the floor. At 
any rate, we will stand in recess at this time. 

(Whereupon, at 12:50 p. m., the committee recessed, to reconvene 
subject to call.) 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 
DEPARTMENTS 



THURSDAY, JUNE 18, 1953 

United States Senate, 
Subcommittee To Investigate the Administration 
of the Internal Security Act and Other Internal 

Security Laws, of the Committee on the Judiciary, 

Washington, D. G. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 11 : 45 a. m., in the caucus 
room, Senate Office Building, Senator William E. Jenner (chairman 
of the subcommittee) presiding. 

Present : Senators Jenner and Johnston. 

Present also : Robert Morris, subcommittee counsel; Benjamin Man- 
del, director of research ; and Robert C. McManus, staff member. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

Mr. Morris. Is Mr. Marzani here? 

The Chairman. Will you be sworn to testify in open session. 

Do you swear the testimony given in this hearing will be the truth, 
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ? 

Mr. Marzani. I do. 

TESTIMONY OF CARL ALDO MARZANI, NEW YORK CITY, ACCOM- 
PANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, DAVID SCRIBNER, NEW YORK CITY 

Mr. Morris. Where do you reside ? 

Mr. Marzani. I prefer not to have pictures taken. 

The Chairman. We will ask the photographers not to put the 
cameras on the witness when testifying. 

Proceed. 

Mr. Marzani. Ill West 88th Street, New York City. 

Mr. Morris. What is your present occupation ? 

Mr. Marzani. I work in a trade union. 

Mr. Morris. The purpose of bringing this witness here today is to 
supplement the testimony the committee has been taking in the last 
few days in connection with Communist infiltration into the Office of 
Strategic Services and related organizations. In that respect the 
witness is called. 

The Chairman. Proceed with the questioning of the witness. 

Mr. Morris. Will you tell us from what universities you obtained 
degrees ? 

Mr. Marzani. I got a degree from Williams College and a degree 
from Oxford University. 

Mr. Morris. In what year did you obtain your degree from Williams 
College '? 

799 



800 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Mr. Marzani. 1935. 

Mr. Morris. And Oxford? 

Mr. Marzani. 1938. 

Mr. Morris. What was your first employment after your graduation' 
from Oxford? 

Mr. Marzani. Works Program Administration. 

Mr. Morris. Will you tell us how you got that Works Program 
Administration job? 

Mr. Marzani. I do not recall. The normal procedure was you went 
on relief and applied for WPA. 

Mr. Morris. That was in what year? 

Mr. Marzani. This would be, I believe, in 1939. 

Mr. Morris. Did you have anything to do with the national research 
project? 

Mr. Marzani. No, sir. 

Mr. Morris. You did not? 

Mr. Marzani. To the best of my recollection. 

Mr. Morrts. How long did you stay with the Works Program 
Administration? 

Mr. Marzani. A matter of several months ; 6, 7, 8. 

Mr. Morris. What did you do after that? 

Mr. Marzani. I obtained a position at New York University. 

Mr. Morris. Pardon? 

Mr. Marzani. I worked at the New York University. 

Mr. Morris. What was your job at New York University ? 

Mr. Marzani. I was a senior economics assistant and an economics 
instructor. 

Mr. Morris. Were you on the faculty? 

Mr. Marzani. That is correct. 

Mr. Morris. How long were you on the faculty of the New York 
University? 

Mr. Marzani. In the neighborhood of a year. Senior assistant is 
sort — not quite faculty. I was an instructor for a year. 

Mr. Morris. Then what did you do after that? 

Mr. Marzani. I came to Washington in the Government. 

Mr. Morris. What year was that? 

Mr. Marzani. 1942. 

Mr. Morris. Then you applied for work with the Coordinator of 
Information ? 

Mr. Marzani. That is correct. 

Mr. Morris. What was the Office of Coordinator of Information? 

Mr. Marzani. It was an agency of the Government charged with 
information and services to the Armed Forces of an economic nature, 
reports, and so on. 

Mr. Morris. Was that organization the starting point for the crea- 
tion of the Office of Strategic Services? 

Mr. Marzani. I believe it was. 

Mr. Morris. The OSS grew out of that development? 

Mr. Marzani. I believe that is correct. 

Mr. Morris. Will you tell us how you got your employment with 
the Office of Coordinator of Information ? 

Mr. Marzani. I must claim the privilege, sir, the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Morris. To tell us how you got your job with the Coordinator 
of Information, a United States agency, would be putting into the 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 801 

record something that might at least be a link in a chain of circum- 
stances leading to your conviction; is that the significance of your 
reply? 

Mr. Makzani. It is my — I have been advised I may claim the privi- 
lege of the fifth amendment since a witness cannot be compelled to 
testify against himself. 

Senator Johnston. So you think if you would answer that question 
it might incriminate you in that some way? 

Mr. Marzani. I claim the privilege. 

Mr. Morris. What were your duties with the Office of Coordinator 
of Information? 

Mr. Marzani. It was my job to prepare digests from raw material. 

Mr. Morris. These digests were prepared for whom ? 

Mr. Marzani. Various other Government agencies — customers. 

Mr. Morris. How long did you remain with the Office of Coordina- 
tor of Information ? 

Mr. Marzani. Until it became the Office of Strategic Services. 

Mr. Morris. How long was that, approximately? 

Mr. Marzani. I do not know ; a matter of months. 

Mr. Morris. A matter of months. Did you have the same assign- 
ment in the OSS ? 

Mr. Marzani. That is correct. 

Mr. Morris. Who was your superior in that? 

Mr. Marzani. General Donovan. 

Mr. Morris. Immediate superior? 

Mr. Marzani. I claim the privilege, sir. 

Mr. Morris. You mean to tell us who your immediate superior was — 
all right. 

The Chairman. The record will show that the witness claims the 
privilege under 'the fifth amendment. His answer might tend to 
incriminate him. 

Mr. Morris. How long did you remain in OSS in that capacity? 

Mr. Marzani. Until I was drafted in the Army. 

Mr. Morris. When was that ? 

Mr. Marzani. This was in 1943. 

Mr. Morris. In 1943 ? 

Mr. Marzani. That is correct. 

Mr. Morris. While you were in OSS, did you apply for a defer- 
ment on the ground that the work in the OSS was important warwork? 

Mr. Marzani. Not to the best of my recollection. 

Mr. Morris. After you were drafted in the Army, did you apply for 
assignment back to OSS ? 

Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer that on the basis of the fifth 
amendment and claim the privilege. 

Mr. Morris. Even whether or not you were assigned back or you 
applied for assignment? 

Mr. Marzani. That is correct. 

Mr. Morris. Who helped you in being reassigned to the OSS ? 

Mr. Marzani. I claim the privilege. 

The Chairman. Same answer. 

Mr. Morris. You were assigned back to the OSS ? 

Mr. Marzani. That is correct. 

Mr. Morris. But you will not tell us how you arranged to be trans- 
ferred back? 

32918° — 15-3— l»t. 12 G 



802 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Mr. Marzani. I claim the privilege. 

Senator Johnston. Did you mean to say it would incriminate you 
or someone else ? 

Mr. Marzani. I claim the privilege, sir. 

Perhaps I did not quite understand the question. Naturally, all 
these answers are related to myself alone. 

Mr. Morris. When you were reassigned as military personnel back 
to OSS, did you do the same work you were doing when you were a 
civilian? 

Mr. Marzani. That is correct. 

Mr. Morris. Exactly the same? 

Mr. Marzani. That is correct. 

Mr. Morris. Was there a difference in pay ? 

Mr. Marzani. Considerable. I was a private. 

Mr. Morris. You were a private. But you were doing the same 
work as you had previously ? 

Mr. Marzani. That is correct. 

Mr. Morris. Who was your superior in that particular connection ? 

Mr. Marzani. I do not recall the name of my military superior. 

Mr. Morris. You do not recall ? 

Mr. Marzani. I was in the Army. I do not know. 

Mr. Morris. Who was your superior? Who gave you orders in 
carrying out this work? 

Mr. Marzani. Within the agency? 

Mr. Morris. Yes. 

Mr. Marzani. I decline to answer under the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Morris. How long did you stay in OSS ? 

Mr. Marzani. Until it went out of existence. 

Mr. Morris. In what year? 

Mr. Marzani. I believe it was at the end of 1945 or very early 
in 194<;. 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Mandel, we have job descriptions of Mr. Marzani, 
do we not ? 

Mr. Mandel. We do. 

Mr. Morris. Please read those. 

Mr. Mandel. I have an application filed by Carl Aldo Marzani 
dated September 27, 1945, in which it is noted that his work with 
the OSS, his exact title was Deputy Chief of Presentation Branch ; 
duties and responsibilities were to supervise production of branch, 
make policy decisions on projects, liaison with Deputy Chief of Staff 
of the AUS, and Office of Under Secretary of War. 

Mr. Morris. Who was the Under Secretary of War? 

Mr. Marzani. Secretary Patterson. 

Mr. Morris- Did you ever have occasion to confer with Secretary 
Patterson ? 

Mr. Marzani. I do not recall, sir. If I did, it must have been maybe 
once or twice. 

Mr. Morris. Did you ever confer with General Marshall? 

Mr. Marzani. No, sir. 

Mr. Morris. You never did? 

Mr. Marzani. I would have been very happy to and very proud 
to. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 803 

Mr. Morris. I am asking these questions to determine how high au- 
thorities were that he had been conferring with. There is no impli- 
cation of any kind involved. 

Who were the generals you were conferring with? 

Mr. Marzani. Deputy Chief of Staff, General McNarney. 

Mi*. Morris. How about General Nelson? 

Mr. Marzani. Yes. 

Mr. Morris. What other generals? 

Mr. Marzani. Various generals in various capacities. I do not recall 
all their names. 

Mr. Morris. How about Colonel Burgess? 

Mr. Marzani. No, I do not believe I did in the OSS. 

Mr. Morris. The idea was, you were preparing material for these? 

Mr. Marzani. They asked me to do work for them. 

Mr. Morris. Will you continue? 

Mr. Mandel. Another description from the OSS on Mr. Marzani's 
application shows him as Chief of the Editorial Section, supervising 
making of movies and charts on technical reports for higher echelons, 
Army, Navy, OSS, and JCS. 

Mr. Morris. That is your own description of your job? 

Mr. Marzani. I presume it is. 

Mr. Morris. Did you ever deal with any members of the Joint 
Chiefs of Staff? 

Mr. Marzani. ISot as such. That is to say, I have dealt with the 
Joint Chiefs of Staff as an organization. 

Mr. Morris. You prepared material for them but you never dealt 
with any actual member of the staff, is that it? 

Mr. Marzani. That is right. I was one of the men responsible for 
picking the targets for the raid on Tokyo, the Doolittle raid. That 
came from the Air Force through the Joint Chiefs. It was a regular 
staff setup. Requests would come in and people would be assigned. I 
mentioned that because it was one of the earliest jobs which I recollect 
clearly. It has already been in the record. 

Senator Johnston. Do you mean to come before this committee and 
state you held this responsible position and at the same time you 
will not say whether or not you were a member of the Communist 
Party at that time? 

Mr. Marzani. In view of the nature of this inquiry, sir, I must 
respectfully claim the privilege of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Morris. What do you mean "the nature of this inquiry?'' 

Mr. Marzani. I claim the privilege, sir. ■ 

Mr. Morris. What do you mean by "the nature of this inquiry?" 

Mr. Marzani. The nature of the questions asked. 

Mr. Morris. This committee is trying to find out whether people 
who were Communists infiltrated high positions of the United States 
Government, particularly during the Second World War. 

Mr. Marzani. I am in no position to discuss matters with you. I 
have been to jail on a frameup charge, 21/^ years. I spent 21/2 years 
on an indictment which was unconstitutional, and in my opinion the 
Supreme Court of the United States decided 4 to 4 it was unconstitu- 
tional, and I went to jail for 2i/2 years. So I must be the only judge 
to the best of my knowledge and ability as to whether I could be put 
into jail again on an indictment which is false and unconstitutional. 

Therefore, I claim the privilege. 



804 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Senator Johnston. When were you in jail? 

Mr. Marzani. 1948 to 1950, with a sick wife and two little children, 
no parole, and a 4 to 4 decision of the Supreme Court. 

Senator Johnston. What was the charge, then ? 

Mr. Marzani. I was charged with such things as trying to take 
over the Army and Navy of the United States. 

Mr. Morris. You were indicted on the count of perjury, lying about 
your membership in the Communist Party, were you not ? 

Mr. Marzani. I was not indicted on the ground of perjury. 

Mr. Morris. What were you indicted on ? 

Mr. Marzani. On a false statement made, allegedly made before an 
individual, with no witnesses, nothing written. 

Mr. Morris. The basis of it was perjury? 

Mr. Marzani. If it was perjury, I could not have been sent to jail. 
They would have to prove it. 

Mr. Morris. The issue was whether or not you had attended Com- 
munist Party meetings. 

Mr. Marzani. No, sir ; whether certain individuals asked me certain 
questions. 

Mr. Morris. Were you a member of the Communist Party ? 

Mr. Marzani. I claim the fifth amendment, the privilege. 

Mr. Morris. Did you attend Communist meetings under the name 
of Tony Whales? 

Mr. Marzani. I claim the privilege. 

Mr. Morris. Did you know a New York City police officer named 
Drew ? 

Mr. Marzani. I claim the privilege of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Marzani, were you Deputy Chief of the Presenta- 
tion Branch, CAF-14 at $7,175 per annum, Office of Strategic Serv- 
ices, in 1945? 

Mr. Marzani. I believe I was after I got out of the Army. 

Mr. Morris. How did you arrive at that position? After you got 
out ? 

Mr. Marzani. That is right. 

Mr. Morris. When did you get out of the Army? 

Mr. Marzani. In 1945. 

Mr. Morris. What month? 

Mr. Marzani. I believe it was September. 

Mr. Morris. How is it you were able to get out of the Army in 1945 
in September? 

Mr.» Marzani. I forget the grounds. There was some grounds, 
dependency, maybe. 

Mr. Morris. Did anyone aid you in getting out ? 

Mr. Marzani. I claim the privilege of the fifth amendment. 

Senator Johnson. Did you make application to get out ? 

Mr. Marzani. I claim the privilege of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Morris. In other words, you went back to work as a civilian 
in the Office of Strategic Services ? 

Mr. Marzani. That is right. 

Mr. Morris. You were a sergeant in the Army ? 

Mr. Marzani. That is correct, master sergeant. 

Mr. Morris. And then you became Deputy Chief of the Presenta- 
tion Branch, Office of Strategic Services, at $7,175 a year. 

Mr. Marzani. That is correct. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 805 

Mr. Morris. What was the nature of your duties there at that time? 

Mr. Marzani. Similar to the previous ones, the taking of raw mate- 
rials and presenting reports. It is mostly generalized to cover all 
kinds of work to be done. 

Mr. Morris. The OSS was transferred to the State Department ? 

Mr. Marzani. That is correct. 

Mr. Morris. Will you tell us about that? 

Mr. Marzani. I know very little about it. It was an Executive 
order which simply divided up the OSS into various sections. They 
were simply handed over to various divisions. 

Mr. Morris. You gave us a description in executive session. That 
was helpful. 

Mr. Marzani. An Executive order took the OSS and took various 
groups, various offices, and assigned them to various agencies; State 
Department, Central Intelligence Agency, and I believe the Board of 
Economic Warfare, although I am not sure about that. 

Mr. Morris. Some of the OSS people became part of the CIA, still 
others became part of the State Department, and some became assigned 
to the Board of Economic Warfare ? 

Mr. Marzani. The first two I know about; the second, the others — 
there may have been more than one. Some of them may have been 
sent to Commerce. Technicians went to the agencies whose responsi- 
bility was to carry that function in peacetime. 

Mr. Morris. It is that transfer in particular that we are interested 
in in connection with that particular person. 

The Chairman. Do you recall how many members there were in OSS 
at the time of the Executive order to divide it up? 

Mr. Marzani. I mentioned a figure this morning. I may say this 
is a figure which I have no personal knowledge of. It has been pub- 
lished in newspapers as being around 10,000. I do not know if it was 
10,000 at that time or not. I believe that is the peak figure, one of the 
figures mentioned about the total size of the OSS. 

The Chairman. You also testified you did not know what percent- 
age of the split was, which went to the CIA and which went to the 
State Department? 

Mr. Marzani. That is correct. 

Mr. Morris. Then you went into the State Department? 

Mr. Marzani. That is correct. 

Mr. Morris. What was your position there ? 

Mr. Marzani. Similar. 

Mr. Morris. What was your title ? 

Mr. Marzani. Deputy Chief of Presentation Branch. 

Mr. Morris. Who was your immediate superior? 

Mr. Marzani. Colonel McCormack was in this particular setup. 

Mr. Morris. Col. Fred McCormack? 

Mr. Marzani. That is correct. 

Mr. Morris. Had he been in the Office of Strategic Services? 

Mr. Marzani. No, sir; he had not. 

Mr. Morris. He came into this reorganization through the State 
Department; is that it? 

Mr. Marzani. That is right. 

Mr. Morris. You were assigned as a subordinate of his; is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Marzani. That is correct. 



806 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Mr. Morris. What was the nature of your work in that connection? 

Mr. Marzani. It was still the same type of thing, reports. The 
nature naturally changed and it was much less military. It was more 
administrative. 

Mr. Morris. You prepared reports but no longer for military offi- 
cials; is that right? 

Mr. Marzani. That is substantially correct. 

Mr. Morris. Whom did you prepare reports for? 

Mr. Marzani. The Assistant Secretary of State, Mr. Russell. 

Mr. Morris. Any other Secretaries of State at that high level? 

Mr. Marzani. I do not recall. The reports would be made avail- 
able generally throughout the State Department. 

Mr. Morris. Who were the people of Assistant Secretary of State 
rank that you prepared reports for? 

Mr. Marzani. Colonel McCormack. 

Mr. Morris. Did you prepare reports for any persons in the State 
Department with the rank of Assistant Secretary? 

Mr. Marzani. I was not personally, specifically asked. Therefore, 
I do not know. I assume that our office would prepare, would be 
available, generally, including the Assistant Secretaries of State. 

Mr. Morrts. What Assistant Secretaries of State have you con- 
ferred with? 

Mr. Marzani. Colonel McCormack. 

Mr. Morris. Is he an Assistant Secretary of State ? 

Mr. Marzani. That is correct. 

Mr. Morris. He is the only one? 

Mr. Marzani. Yes. I think I talked to Mr. Russell once or twice, 
but never any conferring on jobs. I assume you are interested in 
jobs, right? 

Mr. Morris. That is right. 

Mr. Marzani. That is the answer. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 807 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Mandel, do we have a record of oaths taken by Mr. 
Marzani in the course of his Government employment? 

Mr. Mandel. We do. We have one here dated September 20, 1945, 
which is signed by Carl A. Marzani swearing that — 

I do not advocate, nor am I member of, any political party or organization 
that advocates the overthrow of the Government by force or violence. 

We have a statement on his application form, question 17, applica- 
tion dated September 27, 1945, which answers "No" to the question 
of whether you advocate or have you ever advocated, or are you now, 
or have you ever been, a member of any organization that advocates 
the overthrow of the Government of the United States by force or 
violence. 

We have another oath dated March 7, 1942, which is along the 
same line. 

Mr. Morris. Will you show those signatures to the witness, please? 

Will you identify those signatures, Mr. Marzani, as your signatures? 

The Chairman. Let the record show the witness is conferring with 
counsel. 

Mr. Mandel. I have here the signature dated October 4, 1945. 

Mr. Morris. Is that your signature? 

Mr. Marzani. I do not take oaths or write my name lightly. The 
nature of the inquiry and for the reasons I have already stated, I claim 
the privilege on this question. 

Mr. Morris. Will you claim your privilege in connection with the 
other signatures Mr. Mandel is about to show you? 

Mr. Morris. For the same reason. 

They are official records, are they not? 

Mr. Mandel. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. They will go into our record and become a part 
of it. 

(The material referred to was marked "Exhibits Nos. 252, 253, and 
254 and are as follows:) 



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INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 



819 



820 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Mr. Morris. What position did Emile Despres have in the OSS ? 

Mr. Marzani. I claim the privilege. 

Mr. Morris. Will you tell us what position he had in the OSS? 

Mr. Marzani. Because of the nature of this inquiry, I must claim 
the privilege. 

Mr. Morris. When Mr. Zablodowsky was before the committee we 
had asked him about an organization called Presentations, Inc., and 
Mr. Zablodowsky did answer questions about Presentations, Inc. I 
would like just to refer shortly to his testimony and then I will come 
in with questions on this. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Morris. The question was put to Mr. Zablodowsky, and this 
was in the fall of 1952, Senator Eastland presiding at the time : 

Question. Do you know an organization called Presentation Associates? 

Mr. Zablodowsky. I do. 

Question. Tell us about that organization. 

Mr. Zablodowsky. At the time when the war was over, it was obvious all the 
war agencies would evaporate. Several of the people in the Presentation 
Branch 

Question. That is the Presentation Branch of the Office of Strategic Services 
in which you and Mr. Marzani worked together? 

Mr. Zablodowsky. That is right. Several of us thought that it would be a 
good idea to organize a private business in which we could carry on the same 
kind of activities and the same kind of business in which we had so much pleasure 
in and so much comradeship. 

Question. Who were the driving forces in the formation of that organization? 

Mr. Zablodowsky. There were, I suppose, about a half dozen to 10 people. 

Question. Who were the leading forces there? 

Mr. Zablodowsky. I suppose you would 

Question. Mr. Marzani was. was lie not? 

Mr. Zablodowsky. Yes, he was one. 

Question. And were you one? 

Mr. Zablodowsky. You could call me one, but in some respects I was a con- 
servative influence. 

Question. What do you mean by that? 

Mr. Zablodowsky. I never wanted to join it. I never wanted to work for it. 

Question. Did you think it was a Communist organization? 

Mr. Zablodowsky. No. We left it open to everybody in the Presentation 
Branch who wanted to join it. 

Mr. Marzani, were you the head of an organization known as 
Presentations, Inc. ? 

Mr. Marzani. Because of the nature of this inquiry, sir, I respect- 
fully claim the privilege of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Morris. Were you at that time, the time of its organization 
and incorporation which I believe, Mr. Chairman, was April 16, 1946, 
then in the Presentation Branch of the State Department? 

Mr. Marzani. Because of the nature of this inquiry, I respectfully 
claim the privilege of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Morris. On April 16, 1946, were you in the Presentation 
Branch of the State Department ? 

Mr. Marzani. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Morris. Was Presentations, Inc., located at 1707 I Street NW? 

Mr. Marzani. I claim the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Morris. Did you have photostatic equipment in the office of 
Presentations, Inc. ? 

Mr. Marzani. Because of the nature of this inquiry, Mr. Chairman, 
I respectfully must claim the privilege of the fifth amendment. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 821 

Mr. Morris. Who furnished the capital for Presentations, Inc.? 

Mr. Marzani. I claim the privilege of the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Morris. Who furnished the equipment ? 

Mr. Marzani. I claim the privilege. 

Mr. Morris. Did you have any association whatever with the publi- 
cation called Amerasia ? 

Mr. Marzani. I claim the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Morris. Is that your answer? 

Mr. Marzani. Yes. 

Mr. Morris. Have you ever been in the office of Amerasia ? 

Mr. Marzani. Same answer. 

Mr. Morris. Did you ever relate the work of Presentations, Inc., to 
the work of Amerasia ? 

Mr. Marzani. Same answer. 

Mr. Morris. How many people who remained State Department 
officials worked in Presentations, Inc. ? 

Mr. Marzani. I claim the privilege. 

Mr. Morris. Did you work with a Col. Carter Burgess in this 
connection ? 

Mr. Marzani. Which connection, sir? 

Mr. Morris. Have you worked with Col. Carter Burgess in OSS ? 

Mr. Marzani. The State Department, sir. 

Mr. Morris. Was he your superior? 

Mr. Marzani. I do not recall just how he fit into the chain of 
command. 

Mr. Morris. Did you accompany Gerhart Eisler on a speaking tour 
at any time? 

Mr. Marzani. I claim the privilege, sir. 

Mr. Morris. What do you do right now ? 

Mr. Marzani. I work in a union. 

Mr. Morris. What union is that? 

Mr. Marzani. United Electrical Workers. 

Mr. Morris. To your knowledge is that union controlled by the 
Communist Party ? 

Mr. Marzani. Pardon ? 

Mr. Morris. To your knowledge is that union controlled by the 
Communist Party ? 

Mr. Marzani. I claim the privilege. 

Mr. Morris. What work do you do with the United Electrical 
Workers ? 

Mr. Marzani. General publicity. 

Mr. Morris. Describe the nature of the work to the committee. 

Mr. Marzani. Press releases, leaflets, whatever comes up of a pub- 
licity nature. 

Mr. Morris. Were you a member of the Communist Party when you 
graduated from Williams College? 

Mr. Marzani. I claim the privilege. 

Mr. Morris. Were you a member of the Communist Party when you 
graduated from Oxford? 

Mr. Marzani. I claim the privilege, sir. 

Mr. Morris. Were you a member of the Communist Party when you 
were a teacher at New York University ? 

Mr. Marzani. I claim the privilege. 



822 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Mr. Morris. Were you a member of the Communist Party when 
you were an economic editor of the Coordinator of Information ? 

Mr. Marzani. Same answer. 

Mr. Morris. When you were assigned to OSS ? 

Mr. Marzani. Same answer. 

Mr. Morris. When you were in military service serving in OSS ? 

Mr. Marzani. Same answer. 

Mr. Morris. When you were transferred to the State Department ? 

Mr. Marzani. Same answer. 

Mr. Morris. At the present time as you testify here this morning? 

Mr. Marzani. Same answer. 

The Chairman. Further questions? 

Mr. Morris. We would like to have into our record something of 
the functions of Presentations, Inc., but apparently we are not going 
to get it from this witness here this morning. Under those circum- 
stances, I would like to desist from questioning. 

The Chairman. There being no further questions, the committee 
will stand adjourned. 

You are excused. 

(Whereupon, at 12 : 10 p. m., the committee recessed, subject to call.) 



INTEKLOCKING SUBVEKSION IN GOVEENMENT 
DEPARTMENTS 



TUESDAY, JUNE 23, 1953 

United States Senate, 

Subcommittee To Investigate the Administration 
of the Internal Security Act, and Other Internal 

Security Laws, of the Committee on the Judiciary, 

Washington, D. 0. 

The subcommittee met, pursuant to recess, at 2 : 20 p. m., in room 457, 
Senate Office Building, Senator William E. Jenner (chairman of the 
subcommittee) presiding. 

Present : Senators Jenner, Welker, and Butler. 

Also present': Robert Morris, subcommittee counsel; Benjamin 
Mandel, director of research ; and Robert C. McManus, stall' member. 

The Chairman. The committee will come to order. 

Will you be sworn to testify in the open hearing, Miss Barrows? 

Do you swear that the testimony you will give in this hearing will 
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you 
God? 

Miss Barrows. I do. 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Chairman, before beginning the hearing today I 
would like to offer for the record some things that are pertinent to this 
Government inquiry. 

One of the persons figuring in the testimony throughout the Govern- 
ment hearings has been one Allan R. Rosenberg. Rather than call 
Mr. Rosenberg in open session here today, what I would like to do is to 
have Mr. Mandel read for our record what Mr. Allan Rosenberg did 
before the House committee, when he was asked about the testimony of 
Elizabeth Bentley that he had been a member of the Communist 
organization. 

Mr. Mandel. Mr. Allan R. Rosenberg, in a hearing before the 
House committee on June 23, 1952, invoked the fifth amendment on the 
following topics : 

(1) On the question of Elizabeth Bentley 's testimony regarding 
him; 

(2) On the question of his present membership in the Communist 
Party; and 

(3) On the question of his attendance at Communist Party meet- 
ings. 

Miss Barrows. May I hear this again? I don't know if it is 
relevant. 

The Chairman. It is not in relation to you. 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Chairman, I would like also to offer for the record 
the statement of Federal service of Mr. Allan R. Rosenberg. 

The Chairman. It may go into the record and become a part of 
the record. 

823 



824 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 



(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 255" and 
follows:) 

Exhibit No. 255 

United States Civil Service Commission, 

Service Record Division, 
Washington 25, D. C, June 10, 1953. 

statement of federal service 

Notice to individuals. — This record should be preserved — additional copies of 
service histories cannot be furnished due to limited personnel in the Commission. 
This record may be presented to appointing officers for their inspection. 
Name : Rosenberg, Allan R. 
Date of birth : April 21, 1909. 

Authority for original appointment (examination from which appointed or 
other authority— Executive order, law, or other exemption) : Schedule A-l-4. 



Effective 
date 



Nature of action 



Position, grade, salary, etc. 



Oct. 16,1936 
Apr. 28,1937 

A.pr. 29,1937 



Oct. 16,1937 

Dec. 20, 1938 

July 1, 1939 

Mav 16, 1940 

May 1, 1941 

Sept. 29, 194-1 

Dec. 21,1941 

Dec. 22, 1941 

Sept. 1,1942 

Dec. 9, 1942 

Feb. 7, 1943 



Sept. 25, 1943 
Feb. 22,1944 



Dec. 1, 1944 

Sept. 9,1945 

Sept. 27, 1945 
Dec. 31,1945 



Excepted Appointment 

Resignation without prejudice (Posi- 
tion with National Labor Relations 
Board). 

Excepted Appointment (49 Statute 451, 
July 5, 1935). 

Member of Bar, Virginia, 1930, Letter 

Jan. 25, 1939. 
Admitted to Bar, D. C, 1936. 

Promotion 

Promotion 

Promotion 

Promotion 

Intra-Agency Transfer 

Intra-Agency Transfer (Section 1 , Regu- 
lation III, Board of Legal Examiners). 

Resignation without prejudice (Vol.) 
to accept position with Board of Eco- 
nomic Warfare. 

Appointment by Transfer (Section 1, 
Regulation III, Board of Legal Ex- 
aminers, Letter Dec. 21, 1941). 

Promotion (Section 1, Regulation III, 
Board of Legal Examiners, Letter 
Aug. 26, 1942). 

Classification (Ramspeck Act and E. 0. 
8743. Approved for classification as a 
result of a Committee examination). 

Intra-Agency Transfer and Reassign- 
ment (Regulation IX). 



Transfer (Executive Order 9380) 

Intra-Ofnce Transfer and Promotion 
(DC 257, Rev. 3). 



Intra-Agency Transfer and Promotion 
(DC 257, Rev. 3). 



Intra-Agency Transfer. 



Transfer (Executive Order 9630). 



Resignation (To enter private law prac- 
tice). 



Junior Attorney, P-l, $2,000 per annum. Rail- 
road Retirement Board, Washington, D. C. 



Assistant Attorney, P-2, $2,600 per annum, Na- 
tional Labor Relations Board, Washington, 
D. C. 



Legal Assistant, P-3, $3,200 per annum. 
Legal Assistant, P-3, $3,400 per annum. 
Legal Assistant, P-3, $3,600 per annum. 
Attorney, P-3, $3,800 per annum. 
Attorney, P-4, $3,800 per annum, National Labor 

Relations Board, Baltimore, Md. 
Senior Attorney, P-5, $4,600 per annum, National 

Labor Relations Board, Washington, D. C. 



Senior Attorney, P-5, $4,600 per annum, Board 
of Economic Warfare, Washington, D. C. 

Principal Attorney, P-6, $5,600 per annum. 



Principal Attorney, P-6, $5,600 per annum, 
Board of Economic Warfare, Washington, 
D. C. 

Principal Economic Analyst, P-6, $5,600 per 
annum, Board of Economic Warfare, Office of 
Economic Warfare Analysis — Blockade and 
Supply Branch, Washington, D. O. 

Foreign Economic Administration. 

Chief of Section, P-7, $6,500 per annum, Foreign 
Economic Administration, Bureau of Areas^ 
Liberated Areas Branch, Balkans, Washing- 
ton, D. C. Departmental. 

Chief, Economic Institutions Staff, P-8, $8,000 
per annum, Foreign Economic Administra- 
tion, Bureau of Areas — Liberated Areas Branch, 
Economic Institutions Staff, Office of the Chief, 
Washington, D. C. Departmental. 

Division Chief, CAF-15, $8,750 per annum, For- 
eign Economic Administration, Bureau of 
Areas European Branch Eastern European 
Office of the Chief, Washington, D. O. De- 
partmental. 

Division Chief, OAF-15, $8,750 per annum, De- 
partment of State, Washington, D. O. De- 
partmental. 



A. M. Deem, 
Chief, Audit Section. 

The above transcript of service history does not include salary changes, intra- 
agency transfers within an organizational unit not involving changes from one 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 



825 



official headquarters or duty station to another, and promotions or demotions, 
since Federal agencies are not required to report such actions to the Commission. 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer for the record the 
statement of Federal Service of George S. Wheeler. 

The Chairman. It may go into the record and become a part of 
the record. 

(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 256" and 
follows) : 

Exhibit No. 256 

United States Civil Service Commission, 

Service Record Division, 
Washington 25, D. C, June 15, 1953. 

STATEMENT OF FEDERAL SERVICE 

Notice to individuals.— This record should be preserved — additional copies of 
service histories cannot he furnished due to limited personnel in the Commission. 
This record may be presented to appointing officers for their inspection. 

Name : Wheeler, George S. 
Date of birth : May 22, 1908. 

Authority for original appointment (exanfination from which appointed or 
other authority — Executive order, law, or other exemption) : Excepted — Execu- 
tive Order June 29, 1934. 



Effective 
date 



Nature of action 



Position, grade, salary, etc. 



Aug. 16. 1934 



Sept 16,1935 

Nov. 16.1936 
Apr. 19,1937 



Dec. 23, 1937 
Oct. 19,1938 
Oct. 20,1938 



Oct. 1, 1941 
Apr. 30, 1942 

May 1, 1942 

Sept. 17, 1943 
Sept. 18, 1943 



Sept. 25, 1943 
June 22,1944 



June 1, 1945 



Dec. 29.1945 
Dec. 30, 1945 



Nov. 1, 1947 
Dec. 29,1947 



Excepted Appointment 

Promotion 

Promotion 

Classification (Executive Order 7587, 
Mar. 27, 1937. Form 375 filed). 

Promotion 

Separation-Transfer 

Appointment by Transfer 

Promotion 

Separation-Transfer (To War Produc- 
tion Board). 
War Service Appointment by Transfer 
(Reg. IX, Sec. 3). 

Separation-Transfer (To Office of Eco- 
nomic Warfare). 

Appointment by Transfer (WS Reg. 
IX, Sec. 2a). 



Transfer (By Executive Order 9380) _. _ 
Transfer and Reassignment (DC 257, 
Revision 3). 



Intra-Agency Transfer- 



Separation-Transfer 

Appointment by Transfer Excepted 
(Schedule A-l-7). 



Leave Without Pay (For a period not 
to exceed 60 days). 

Termination (Completion of Contract 
Agreement. Remaining in Prague, 
Czechoslovakia, to teach Technical 
University on completion of LWOP.) 



Member Research Staff (Special Expert) $2,000 

per annum, National Labor Relations Board, 

Washington, D. C 
Associate Industrial Economist, P-3, $2,000 per 

annum. 
P-3, $3,600 per annum. 
Associate Industrial Economist, P-3, $3,600 per 

annum, National Labor Relations Board, 

Washington, D. C 
Industrial Economist, P-4, $3,800 per annum. 

Senior Industrial Economist, P-5, $4,600 per 
annum, Labor, Wage and Hour Division, 
Washincton, D. C. 

P-5, $4,800 per annum. 



Principal Economist, P-6, $5,600 per annum, 
War Production Board, Division of Civilian 
Supply, Washington, D. C 



Chief of Section, P-7, $6,500 per annum, Office of 
Economic Warfare. Office of Economic War- 
fare Analysis— Blockade and Supply Branch, 
Washington, D. C. 

Foreign Economic Administration. 

Labor Economist, (Chief, Manpower Division) 
P-7, $6,500 per annum, Foreign Economic 
Administration, Bureau of Areas, Liberated 
Areas Branch Economic Institutions, Wash- 
ington, D. C. 

Labor Economist, P-7, $6,500 per annum, For- 
eign Economic Administration, Field, Ger- 
man Staff, London, England, Field. 

Labor Economist, P-7, $7,437.50 per annum. 

Chief. Manpower Allocation Branch, P-7, 
$7,437.50 per annum, plus 25% cliff. WAR, 
European Theater, OMGUS, APO 742, c/o 
Postmaster, New York, N. Y. 

Chief, Manpower (Allocation Branch, Man/5) 
P-7, $10,000 per annum. 



30918°— €3— Pt. 12- 



A. M. Deem, 
Chief, Audit Section. 



826 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

The above transcript of service history does not include salary changes, intra- 
agency transfers within an organizational unit not involving changes from one 
official headquarters or duty station to another, and promotions or demotions, 
since Federal agencies are not required to report such actions to the Commission. 

Mr. Moeris. Mr. George S. Wheeler is not available as a witness, 
Senator. 

I would like to offer into the record at this time an article published 
in Czechoslovakia, May, 1950. The first paragraph of that particular 
article is under the heading "Welcome, American Friends." 

"I have cast up accounts. I have compared the America of Wall Street, Tru- 
man and Acheson with Czechoslovakia's earnest efforts to build a planned 
economy of prosperity for the people. I wish to place myself proudly in the 
camp of peace and progress." 

Announcing in these words his decision to ask the Czechoslovak Government 
to grant asylum to himself and his family. George S. Wheeler, former Denazifica- 
tion Chief for the Labor Offices in the American Zone of Germany, declared last 
month that he "condemns and repudiates before the world the war policy of 
American imperialism." 

The Chairman. It may go into the record and become a part of 
the record. 

Mr. Morris. That is entitled "Czechoslovak Life, Number 5, Vol- 
ume V." 

(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 257" and 
follows:) 

Exhibit No. 257 

[Taken from Factory Democracy at Work, May 1950, No. 5, vol. V, 6d, 15c, 12 Kcs.] 

"I have cast up accounts. I have compared the America of Wall Street, Tru- 
man and Acheson with Czechoslovakia's earnest efforts to build a planned 
economy of prosperity for the people. I wish to place myself proudly in the camp 
of peace and progress." 

Announcing in these words his decision to ask the Czechoslovak Government 
to grant asylum to himself and his family, George S. Wheeler, former Denazifica- 
tion Chief for the Labor offices in the American zone of Germany, declared last 
month that he "condemns and repudiates before the world the war policy of 
American imperialism." 

The warm reception which George Wheeler's action has had here, he told 
"Czechoslovak Life" in an interview, should be attributed above all to the desire 
of the Czechoslovak people, expressed at the many meetings he has addressed, 
for real friendship with the American people. 

Wheeler says he has been kept busier than ever he remembers trying to fulfill 
all the requests from factories, schools and clubs to talk to them about condi- 
tions in America — and has had "some fairly tough questions to answer" about 
what Americans are thinking and doing on the most vital question of our day, 
the question of war and peace. 

In a parallel statement. Mrs. George Wheeler, until recently correspondent of 
the Religious News Service in Prague, told the Czech press : "We want our 
children to know that we have nothing and want to have nothing in common 
with the treacherous preparations for a new war, with manufacture of atomic 
weapons, and that we proudly stand by the side of those who by their construc- 
tive efforts and work fight against war and defend peace." 

George Wheeler and his wife say they have been surprised and profoundly 
moved by the deep friendliness with which their action in coming out publicly 
against the war policies of the present United States administration has been 
welcomed. Czech women in particular have been interested in Eleanor Wheeler's 
story of the difficulties of bringing up children decently in the hate- and race- 
crazed atmosphere of the Southern States, and the contrast she has drawn between 
this atmosphere and the calm and humane environment in which her four chil- 
dren are now growing up in Czech schools. 

Women at one factory where she was invited to speak, she told us, formed 
on the spot a kind of patronage committee on her eldest son, Frank, aged 14, who 
is interested in electromechanics, and offered him about a dozen different future 
occupations together with training and education at the expense of the factory. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 827 

"We have people of 17 different nations working in our factory," they said, 
"Spaniards, Greeks, Africans, and we'll take your boy, too, or any other son of 
peace-loving folk." 

In his statement, which was issued in the first place as a protest against the 
Gestapo-style treatment meted out by American occupation officials to the 58 
Czechoslovak citizens flown against their will to Munich in March, Wheeler 
declared : 

"This incident was for me the culmination of a whole chain of experiences 
which I had with American Military Government in Germany." 

"In my function as policy chief of the labor offices in the American zone of 
Germany, I had at my disposal the complete files of all the members of the 
NSDAP, SS, Gestapo, and other Nazi organizations. However, in the placing of 
men in responsible positions I was asked not to carry out the original instructions 
but to follow the orders of the American Intelligence Service and place members 
of Nazi organizations although the files revealed their past, in these positions." 

Called before the Loyalty Board of the United States Civil Service Commission 
in 1945, Wheeler was accused of associating with Negroes on an equal social 
basis and of a favorable attitude toward democratic and anti-Fascist organiza- 
tions. Again before Loyalty Boards in 1946 and 1947 he was charged with 
trying to follow a Communist policy in Germany, that is, of refusing to carry out 
the renazifying policies of the State Department. 

The Marshall plan, the Truman doctrine, the Atlantic pact, the so-called aid to 
backward countries, are the main pillars of the American imperialist plans for 
world domination, Wheeler emphasized : 

"I must mention in this connection another instrument of American policy 
serving the same ends. I have in mind the enormous United States espionage 
apparatus. How ashamed I felt when I faced the people who were being so 
hospitable to me when espionage plots of the American Embassies came to light — 
wliether it was the Rajk or Rostov trials, or the espionage activity of the Ameri- 
can diplomats in Prague. To the bottom of my soul I feel ashamed of the crude 
lies and slanders which are being produced by the American Embassies and the 
official information services." 

Coming to Czechoslovakia in 1947 after being dismissed without any reason 
given by American Military Government, Wheeler became acquainted with the 
Czechoslovak people, with their difficulties and constructive endeavors, their 
planned economy and growing prosperity, and "it was here — he said — that I first 
got to know real democracy." 

"Hundreds of questions put to me at meetings here have proved one thing 
conclusively," Wheeler says, "and that is the people's tremendous eagerness for 
friendship and cooperation with progressive America." 

Keenest and most frank questions came from the factory meetings : How will 
you work here for peace; do the American people know about the failure of 
denazification; what has happened to the shares belonging to Nazi Germans in 
United States concerns ; what social provisions are there for United States stu- 
dents ; how do workers behave toward Negroes in the United States ; can fascism 
become a mass movement there ; what is the standard of living of the American 
workers compared to ours ; what is the economic position of farmers ; what do 
they think about the victory of the Chinese people ; how are they informed about 
Czechoslovakia ; of what importance is the Wallace party to the peace movement ; 
what would the American workers do in case of war. 

Asked by the workers at the Prague CKD plant the question "What is America 
trying to gain by the cold war?" Wheeler answered : 

"The question has to be put rather differently. The big capitalists want 
Increased profits, as can be seen from any of their business journals or even a 
close analysis of the debates in Congress. As an economist I think that the profit 
motive is the main reason for the cold war, together with the fear of depression 
in the United States, as President Truman himself admitted in one of his recent 
economic reports. 

The American press says you have given up your citizenship. 

"We certainly have not given up our American citizenship. We do not think 
that the Truman administration is any more eternal than the Hoover adminis- 
tration proved to be." 

Do you believe in a war against the Soviet Union with another Hitler army? 

"I do not believe in war with the Soviet Army. I personally am very reluctant 
to think that the United States would start a war, and I know that the Soviet 
Union and the people's democracies would not start a war. It would be impos- 
sible for the United States to win if it started a war. They are talking about 
30 to 40 Western divisions, but this is tiddlywinks compared with the number 



828 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

of divisions with which Hitler tried and failed. Then also the working people 
in the continental countries would not fight for them, and the hundreds of millions 
in People's China and the colonial countries would be actively against them." 

In an address given at the Socialist Academy on the American Way of Life 
Wheeler told his audience : "My country is a big country, rich in resources and 
fine working people. But it is far from being the paradise of free land and 
endless opportunity which used to attract millions of emigrants from Europe, 
and which Hollywood, the Voice of America, and USIS would like you to think 
it still is. I fully agree with the recent decision closing down the U'SIS offices 
in Prague because as an American I know that the USIS gave completely dis- 
torted picture of the American way of life — done deliberately to mislead, and 
cause unrest among the Czechoslovak people. 

"In their hatred of the Soviet Union and the people's democracies, the Wall 
Street rulers and their hirelings, including the reactionary elements in this 
country, do not stop short of any means in their attempts to halt the progress 
toward socialism. And I, who have first-hand knowledge of the methods of the 
FBI and the CIC, appeal to you in the name of progress and peace to lie vigilant 
and guard your great achievements against the criminal attempts of imperialism. 
I am happy to be in this camp, which is unconquerable; and just as you, my 
friends, I too want to work for peace by placing my knowledge and experience 
at the disposal of the working people of this country." 

Mr. Morris, Mr. Chairman, in connection with the appearances of 
Thomas Davin and Harold King, who appeared before this commit- 
tee in open session in the Educational hearings, I would like to have 
received in the record an article entitled "From the Managing Editor's 
Desk," appearing in the Brooklyn Tablet, Saturday, June 13, 1953, 
in connection with the organization called the Committee of Catholics 
for Human Rights. 

The Chairman. It may go into the record and become a part of the 
record. 

(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 258" and 
follows:) 

Exhibit No. 258 

[From the Brooklyn Tablet, June 13, 1953] 

From the Managing Editor's Desk 

historical note 

The news article on page 1 stating Senator William Jenner had evidence that 
a Communist Party cell existed to infiltrate the Catholic Church makes interest- 
ing reading. A witness before the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee, 
one Harold King, a New York City public school teacher, who had been identified 
by other witnesses as a Communist, admitted he was a member of the Commit- 
tee of Catholics for Human Rights. When asked if he was a member of a 
Communist cell, the special purpose of which was to influence Catholic policy, 
he refused to answer on constitutional grounds. 

Our readers with good memories will recall how the Tablet some years back 
exposed this committee, which was made up of a number of well-known 
Catholics — it was headed for a time by Senator James Murray of Montana and 
at another time by Supreme Court Justice Frank Murphy. 

The committee in 1939 started a monthly publication called the Voice for 
Human Rights, professedly dedicated to the protection of human rights. The 
late Prof. Emanuel Chapman was the executive director of the organization, 
with Mr. King very important but in the background. The first issue of the Voice 
was ushered in with tremendous publicity, with 250,000 copies printed; Gene 
Tunney sold the first copy to Mayor LaGuardia on the city hall steps ; leaders 
in church and state saluted it. Mrs. Eleanor Roosevelt stated it recognized a 
great cause and she predicted future success. The daily press gave it widespread 
publicity as an outstanding venture. 

The publication carried pictures of bishops, priests and laymen denouncing 
"anti-Semitism." Many quotations were out of context, practically all with- 
out authority, and many were plagiarized. Nothing was said about anti-Christi- 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 829 

unity, or the persecution of Catholics and although Nazis were condemned 
in every paragraph, not a murmur was uttered against Communism. 

The following week the Tahlet called the Voice a preposterous fraud, meant 
to divide < Jatholics by making Father Coughlin a whipping boy, and using 
anti-Semitism to hide the crimes of communism. Our criticism was taken so 
seriously the executive board of the Committee of Catholics for Human Rights 
held a special meeting, at which it was decided to take the Tablet to task in its 
second issue and to have the "Voice" circulated outside the churches in the 
Diocese of Brooklyn. Seemingly we had hit the bull's eye. 

The second issue of the Voice was held up a month to do a complete job 
on us. It was issued in September 1939. A half dozen articles — several from 
Catholic papers — scored us severely, but none met our criticism. We replied 
by asking Mr. Chapman and his board to denounce communism, to voice 
some disapprobation of those who had enslaved the millions of Christians 
in Russia, to condemn anti-Christianity with anti-Semitism. We referred to 
the committee as being "bought and paid for" — a statement we were in a position 
to prove, for we knew the financial backers of the venture. Then, Dr. Francis 
McMahon of Notre Dame University and several others in the next issue again 
took up the cudgels against us, and with considerable bitterness; nor did they 
face the question. 

Meanwhile the Committee for Human Rights was completely unsuccessful 
in having the publication sold outside churches in this diocese. One more issue 
was printed and it folded up. 

REVIVAL 

In April of 1944 the Committee of Catholics for Human Rights was revived 
and with the same cast of characters but without the Voice. One of its big ven- 
tures was a money-raising public dinner in the Hotel Roosevelt. It was held 
November 28, 194G. Previous to the occasion the annual Msgr. John A. Ryan 
Award for Human Rights was established. Auxiliary Bishop Bernard Sheil 
of Chicago and Philip Murray were the recipients. Among the speakers was a 
well-known Communist and others who have since been revealed as champions 
of the Soviet. The following year — March 3, 1947 — in the Hotel Waldorf- 
Astoria — a similar dinner was held and the Ryan awards were given to Basil 
O'Connor and Archbishop Richard Cushing, who did not appear to accept the 
the honor. Out of the S00 at this dinner of the Committee of Catholics for Hu- 
man Rights only a small proportion were Catholics. Senator Murray at this 
dinner took us to task. 

The Tablet again asked the same questions, namely, why is communism never 
attacked ; why are the Poles and other Catholics being persecuted, never de- 
fended. America, in an editorial, said we were uncharitable ; the Commonweal 
offered adverse comment ; Dr. McMahon put us in the lunatic fringe, although 
we only quoted Pope Pius XI on the menace of communism, etc. But the two 
Socialist papers — the Call and the New Leader — did a public service. 

The Call looked into the matter and revealed the late Mr. Chapman as a 
fellow-traveler, and the Committee of Catholics for Human Rights as a rather 
phony outfit. The New Leader checked up our charges and discovered the 
executive secretary of the Committee of Catholics for Human Rights was iden- 
tified with seven Communist-front groups. 

When asked why he did not follow the Pope and the American hierarchy in 
condemning the Communist persecution of Catholics and the enslavement of mil- 
lions of human beings by the Soviet, Mr. Chapman as quoted in the New Leader 
said if he did "he would be lining himself up with the Brooklyn Tablet." 

The last was our punchline and helped bring about the resignation of many 
members from the committee. Now, 10 years later, Senator Jenner has a wit- 
ness a key man in the Committee of Catholics for Human Rights who has been 
identified by others as a Red and who refuses to deny that he was a member of 
a Communist cell. 

A week previously Senator Jenner had before him another witness, Thomas 
Davin, who had been accused of being a Communist, and when he was asked 
if he had been active on the Committee of Catholics for Human Rights he replied 
he must decline to answer on the grounds that a response "might tend to in- 
criminate me." Several weeks before that, another member of the same com- 
mittee of Catholics, Julius A. Hlavaty, a New York public school teacher, refused 
to affirm or deny he was a Communist ; he has since been expelled from the 
public school system. 



830 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

TESTIMONY OF ALICE PRENTICE BARROWS, BLUE HILL, MAINE, 
ACCOMPANIED BY HER ATTORNEY, DAVID REIN, WASHINGTON, 
D. C. 

Mr. Morris. Miss Barrows, will you give your full name and address 
to the reporter? 

Miss Barrows. Alice Prentice, P-r-e-n-t-i-c-e, Barrows. 

Mr. Morris. What is your present address ? 

Miss Barrows. East Blue Hill, Maine. 

Mr. Morris. AVhat is your present occupation ? 

Miss Barrows. I have retired. I am writing just casually as I am 
interested — I have no occupation. 

Mr. Morris. You say you are a writer? 

Miss Barrows. No; I am writing, but, you know, I am retired — 
I am 75. 

Mr. Morris. But you do say that you are writing? 

Miss Barrows. Yes, I am writing. 

Mr. Morris. For whom are you writing ? 

Miss Barrows. Just myself. I haven't any publisher. I am just 
doing it because it amuses me. 

Mr. Morris. You are writing personal notes ? 

Miss Barrows. Yes. I wrote something on my remembrances of 
educational schools, and so on. 

Mr. Morris. I see. Are you sending your writings to any schools? 

Miss Barrows. No, not to anybody. 

Mr. Morris. Now, Miss Barrows, you have had a rather long period 
of Federal employment ; have you not ? 

Miss Barrows. Yes, 23 years. 

Mr. Morris. I think you stated in executive session that you com- 
menced work with the United States Government in 1919 ? 

Miss Barrows. Yes. 

Mr. Morris. Were you a specialist in industrial and economic rela- 
tions in education, with the Department of Interior? 

Miss Barrows. With the Office of Education, Department of 
Interior. 

Mr. Morris. What was the nature of your assignment at that time? 

Miss Barrows. Actually I was doing school-building surveys then, 
but Dr. Claxton, the then Commissioner, gave me that title, because 
he felt that he wanted to have in the Office of Education a record of 
the fact that in school-building surveys, you studied the community. 

For example, when you are prognosticating the number of build- 
ings, and where you have to know where is the business district, where 
is the manufacturing district, and so on. This is an economic and 
social and industrial study of the particular city that you are investi- 
gating with a view to getting a correct school-building program. 

Mr. Morris. And you commenced that in 1919 ? 

Miss Barrows. Yes. 

Mr. Morris. Yet you say it formally commenced in March 1920 ; is 
that right? 

Miss Barrows. Well, my recollection — I happened to be going 
through my files, and the August 1919 was the certificate signed by 
Franklin K. Lane. 

Mr. Morris. I would like to ask you if you were at that time a mem- 
ber of the Communist Party ? 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 831 

Miss Barrows. As I have said before, my Puritan ancestors were 
the ones who refused in England in the 16th century to answer ques- 
tions of their beliefs by the ecclesiastical inquisition, stating that no 
one had a right tcr ask anyone to testify against himself, and that in 
so testifying thereby possibly injuring others. 

Those same ancestors came here in 1630 

Mr. Morris. Miss Barrows, may I break in? You have an attorney, 
and you realize that if you project yourself into the position of your 
Puritan ancestors, and that is your position now, you are not entitled 
to refuse to answer the questions because that, as you have stated it 
so far, at least, is no reason to refuse to answer the questions put to 
you. You recognize that? 

Miss Barrows. No ; I am explaining why I am going to invoke the 
fifth amendment, because I consider that the fifth amendment is abso- 
lutely basic, and I feel that there has been a great deal of misunder- 
standing of it in the press, and I want to explain that I, from my own 
family history, know that the fifth amendment was to protect the in- 
nocent, and that I feel that it is one of the most basic, with the first 
amendment, of all amendments in our Bill of Rights. 

Therefore, this is merely a preliminary statement as to the fifth 
amendment, and why I think it is so important, because I think it is 
most unfortunate that apparently over and over again people now say 
invoking the fifth amendment proves their guilt. This is a terrible 
thing when the fifth amendment was more basic. Our ancestors 
brought this here and put it into their colonial laws, even before we 
had the Constitution, and it was for the protection of the innocent. 

I am simply saying that as a preliminary remark, because I have 
been very much worked up. 

Senator Welkee. I would like your observation on how the fifth 
amendment protects the innocent. 

Miss Barrows. I am simply telling you that this is the purpose for 
which it was put in, and any lawyer 

Senator Welker. You apparently know a great deal about it. I 
want you to tell me how the fifth amendment protects the innocent. 

Miss Barrows. As any law protects the innocent as well as the 
guilty. 

Senator Welker. How are the innocent protected by the fifth 
amendment? It seems to me that they do not need any protection. 

Miss Barrows. Senator, all laws are protection for the innocent or 
the guilty. Many innocent people are hauled before both committees 
and courts, and they have to be protected. 

Mr. Morris. Well, Miss Barrows, you understand that when you 
invoke the fifth amendment you have to honestly believe that an 
honest answer on your part would at least furnish a link in a chain 
of evidence that would lead to your prosecution for a crime. There is 
the significance. Mr. Rein is there with you and you must realize the 
full significance of what you are doing. 

(Witness confers with counsel.) 

Miss Barrows. Well, I understand that, yes. 

Mr. Morris. Just as long as you understand the significance of your 
statement, the committee is satisfied. 

Miss Barrows. All right, but I wanted to get this into the record, 
because I am very much worked up on that subject, 



832 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Senator Welker. You want us to understand that you are abso- 
lutely innocent when you invoke that privilege, or do you invoke it 
on both grounds ? 

Miss Barrows. I have answered Mr. Morris. 

Senator Welker. You will answer me. I work here too. 

Miss Barrows. My point is — Mr. Morris, will you repeat your ques- 
tion ? 

Senator Welker. Just answer mine. I want it understood for the 
record whether or not you are invoking the privilege because you are 
innocent or because of the fact that it might tend to incriminate you. 

Miss Barrows. The fifth amendment, to be invoked involves — I had 
better find out this from you. 

(Witness confers with counsel). 

Miss Barrows. I invoke the fifth amendment for the reasons stated 
by Mr. Morris and for the reasons stated by me. 

Senator Welker. Which is that? Is that because you are inno- 
cent or because it might tend to incriminate you ? 

Miss Barrows. They were those reasons, and they are in the record. 

Senator Welker. I am asking you: Are you invoking the fifth 
amendment because of the fact of your innocence or because of the 
fact that it might tend to incriminate you ? 

Miss Barrows. As I have said before, and it is my full answer, I am 
invoking it for the reasons that Mr. Morris has given and for the 
reasons that I have given, which are the same as Mr. Morris'. 

Senator Welker. Will you please answer my question? I do not 
care what Mr. Morris asked. I want to know the basis of your in- 
voking it. 

Miss Barrows. I am sorry, but I think that I am perfectly justified 
in making that reply. 

Senator Welker. You made quite a speech here a moment ago about 
protecting the innocent. I want to know whether or not you are basing 
your objection and your invocation of the right on the fact of your 
innocence or on the fact that it might tend to incriminate you ? 

Miss Barrows. When I was discussing the fifth amendment I was 
discussing the history of the fifth amendment. 

Senator Welker. I understand that. 

Miss Barrows. That is what I was saying when I spoke about its 
being for the protection of the innocent as well as the guilty. That 
was all I was doing, was discussing the history of it. 

Mr. Morris. Let me put it this way : Were you at that time during 
the period of your first employment as a specialist in industrial and 
economic relations in education, attending Communist Party meet- 
ings ? 

( Witness confers with counsel. ) 

Miss Barrows. I invoke the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Morris. Now, on July 1, 1924, did you receive a promotion and 
become a specialist in city schools, at the rate of $3,800 per annum ? 

Miss Barrows. Yes. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 833 

Mr. Morris. Is that also with the Department of the Interior? 

Miss Barrows. Yes — at least I don't think it was Federal Security 
yet. 

Mr. Morris. On January 4, 1928, were you reassigned and classified 
as an educationist (specialist in school buildings) P-4, at $3,800 per 
annum ? 

Miss Barrows. Yes. 

Mr. Morris. What is an educationist, Miss Barrows? 

Miss Barrows. I never understood that term. It seems to be you 
are an educator that is doing school buildings. 

Mr. Morris. Then were you transferred to the Office of Education 
in the Federal Security Agency at some later date ? 

Miss Barrows. Yes. The Office of Education was transferred to 
the Federal Security Agency. 

Mr. Morris. I see. And you went with the Office ? 

Miss Barrows. Yes. 

Mr. Morris. Were you a member of the Communist Party at that 
time ? 

Miss Barrows. I invoke the fifth amendment, 

Mr. Morris. When was that Office transferred? 

Miss Barrows. I don't remember. 

Mr. Morris. Was that in 1941 or earlier? 

Miss Barrows. Oh, no; that was soon after. I haven't any idea 
when it was. I thought it was — what was the date of that? 

Mr. Morris. Well, you see, the difficulty is that it comes between 
the date of July 1, 1928, when you were promoted to P-5, $4,600 per 
annum, and October 1, 1941, where you were promoted to educationist 
(specialist in school buildings), P-5, at $4,800 per annum, and it does 
not indicate from this record 

Miss Barrows. Where is the Federal Security ? 

Mr. Morris. It comes between these two dates. 

Mr. Rein. It says "Transferred April 24, 1939." It is indicated 
that it was transferred. 

(Statement of Federal service marked "Exhibit No. 258A" and 
inserted here for reference :) 

Exhibit No. 258A 

United States Civil Service Commission, 

Service Record Division, 
Washington 25, D. C, June 8, 1953. 

statement of federal service 

Notice to individuals. — This record should be preserved — additional copies of 
service histories cannot be furnished due to limited personnel in the Commission. 
This record may be presented to appointing officers for their inspection. 

Name : Formerly Fernandez ; Barrows, Alice B. 
Date of birth : November 15, 1879. 

Authority for original appointment (examination from which appointed or 
other authority — Executive Order, Law, or other exemption) : Specialist in Indus- 
trial and Economic Relations in Education 84.40. 



834 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 



Effective 
date 



Nature of action 



Position, grade, salary, etc. 



Mar. 1,1920 



July 1, 1924 
Jan. 4. 1928 



July 1, 192S 



Oct. 1, 1941 

Aug. 31,1942 
May 4. 1936 
Aug. 3. 1936 



Probational Appointment 

Promotion 

Reassignment 

Promotion 

(Ottice of Education Transfer to 
Federal Security Agency. Reor- 
ganization Plan I, dated Apr. 25, 
1939.) 
Promotion 

Retired 

Temporary Appointment 

Termination (Work completed) 



Specialist in Industrial and Economic Relations 
in Education, $3,500 per annum, INTERIOR, 
Office of Education, Washington, D. C. 

Specialist in City Schools, $3,800 per annum. 

Educationist (Specialist in School Buildings) 
P-4. $3,800 per annum. 

P-5, $4,600 per annum. 



Educationist (Specialist in School Buildings) 
P-5, $4,800 per annum. 

Collaborator (without compensation). 
Resettlement Administration, Washington, D. C. 



A. M. Deem, 
Chief, Audit Section. 

The above transcript of service history does not include salary changes, intra- 
agency transfers within an organizational unit not involving changes from one 
official headquarters or duty station to another, and promotions or demotions, 
since Federal agencies are not required to report such actions to the Commission. 

Mr. Morris. What degrees do you hold, Miss Barrows I 

Miss Barrows. I graduated from Vassar, A. B. 

Mr. Morris. In what year? 

Miss Barrows. That was in 1900. 

Mr. Morris. When did you retire from Federal employment, Miss 
Barrows? 

Miss Barrows. In August 1942. 

Mr. Morris. What degrees do you hold? 

Miss Barrows. I hold just the A. B. 

Mr. Morris. Just the A. B. degree? 

Miss Barrows. Yes. 

Mr. Morris. Now, you have lectured at Vassar on several occasions, 
have you not, Miss Barrows? 

Miss Barrows. I don't remember. I suppose I have. 

Mr. Morris. Pardon me? 

Miss Barrows. I suppose I have. I don't remember specifically. 
I taught there. 

Mr. Morris. When did you teach there? 

Miss Barrows. Well, after I graduated, I taught in the Packard 
Collegiate Institute, and then in the Ethical Culture School, and was 
asked to come back to Vassar and teach English in the freshman, 
sophomore and junior classes, from about 1905 through 1907. 

Mr. Morris. You have been up to the Vassar campus more recently 
than that, have you not. 

Miss Barrows. I have been back to all my reunions — not all of them, 
I haven't been back to the last few. 

Mr. Morris. You have been active in the American League for Peace 
and Democracy? 

Miss Barrows. I invoke the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Morris. Were you in charge of publicity of the Washington 
Chapter of the American League for Peace and Democracy ? 

Miss Barrows. I invoke the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Morris. Were you a member of the American League for Peace 
and Democracy and did you give, as a listing for your chapter, the 
Office of Education in the Federal Government? 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 835 

Miss Barrows. I invoke the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Morris. Were you director of the Congress of American Soviet 
Friendship in 1943? 

Miss Barrows. I invoke the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Morris. Were you the secretary of the Marion Bachrach De- 
fense Committee in 1952? 

Miss Barrows. I invoke the fifth amendment, and I want to say 
that I am sure if my uncle, the former Speaker of the House, were 
alive today he would really condemn all the purposes of this com- 
mittee as inimical to the best interests of the United States. 

The Chairman. When your uncle was Speaker of the House, I am 
sure that he was not confronted with a Communist conspiracy intend- 
ing to overthrow the Government of this country by force and vio- 
lence, was he ? 

Miss Barrows. My uncle believed literally in the fifth amendment. 

The Chairman. How about the Communist conspiracy? Was he 
confronted with that proposition at that time? 

Miss Barrows. I don't suppose so. 

The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Morris. 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Chairman, I would like to point out that the last 
committee about which we asked Miss Barrows was the Committee for 
the Defense of Marion Bachrach. Marion Bachrach was one of the 
defendants in the second Smith Act trial in New York and, because 
of her severe illness, certain people were trying to obtain a severance 
in Miss Bachrach's case. We have here some papers which Mr. Mandel 
will identify. One of them is signed "Alice Prentice Barrows, 
Secretary." 

Are you Alice Prentice Barrows ? 

Miss* Barrows. Yes; I am Alice Prentice Barrows. 

Mr. Morris. Is that your signature, Miss Barrows? 

Document handed to the witness.) 

(Witness confers with counsel.) 

Miss Barrows. I invoke the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Morris. And will you identify these two documents, Mr. 
Mandel ? 

Mr. Mandel. I have here photostats of literature sent out by the 
Committee for the Defense of Marion Bachrach, with accompanying 
letters, which I offer for the record. 

The Chairman. They may go into the record and become a part of 
the record. 

(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit 259" and follows:) 

Exhibit No. 259 
Organization Committee for the Defense of Marion Bachrach 

(Received for files August 14, 1952) 

New York, N. Y. 
Dorothy Brewster, 

Treasurer, 310 Riverside Drive, New York, N. T. 
Dear Friend : Because of a severe illness, Marion Bachrach has been severed 
from the case of the 17 victims of the Smith Act in New York. However, she 
is still under indictment and will not be cleared until this case is won. 

Marion, as treasurer of the self-defense committee, did a splendid job in raising 
funds for defense, continuing the work long past the time when her health would 
. permit. 



836 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 



Now from room 810, Beth Israel Hospital, 17th Street and Stuyvesant Square, 
New York 14, N. Y., her first question every day is, "Has any more money 
come in?" 

Though still critically ill, her chief concern is not for herself but for victory 
in the historic struggle being waged at the trial at Foley Square for the 
preservation of our most precious democratic liberty : The right to freedom 
of thought, speech, and assembly. Always' these struggles have been led by 
a minority that dared calumny and persecution for their beliefs. Always in 
the past, the tight has been won. It must be won again. 

It is the constitutional liberties of all Americans that are being defended 
in this trial. We ask that you give a get-well contribution to the Marion 
Bachrach committee, and if you would send her a cheerful note this would be a 
great help, as she cannot read newspapers yet. 
Sincerely yours, 

Alice Prentice Barrows, 

Secretary. 

Mr. Morris. Miss Barrows, have you been a sponsor of the Cultural 
and Scientific Conference for World Peace, issued by the National 
Council of the Arts, Sciences, and Professions, in 1949? 

Miss Barrows. I invoke the fifth amendment, 

Mr. Morris. Mr. Mandel, do we have a listing of the people who 
supported that particular organization ? 

Mr. Mandel. I have here a photostatic copy of the list issued by 
the Cultural and Scientific Conference for "World Peace, dated March 
25 to 27, 1949, giving a partial list of sponsors, with Alice Prentice 
Barrows as a member of that list. 

Mr. Morris. May that go into the record ? 

The Chairman. It may go into the record and become a part of 
the record. 

(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit 260" and follows :) 

Sponsors, Cultural and Scientific Conference for World Peace 



(New York City, March 25-27, 1949) 



Berenice Abbott 
Rev. Charles B. Ackley 
Louis Adamic 
Charles Christopher 

Adams 
Franklin P. Adams 
Rev. Stacy Adams 
Dr. Thomas Addis 
Stella Adler 
Cecelia Ager 
Gregory Ain 
Robert E. Alexander 
Oliver S. Allen 
Prof. Ethel J. Alpenfels 
Ralph Alswang 
Kurt Anderson 
George Antheil 
Robenia Anthony 
Herbert Aptheker 
Bruno Aron 
James Aronson 
Simon Asen 
Edith Atwater 
Prof. Marston Balch 
William Bales 
W. W. Ballard 
Zlatko Balokovic 
Josephine C. Barbour 



Rev. Wade Crawford 
Barclay 

S. L. M. Barlow 

Prof. Cyrus P. Barnum, 
Jr. 

Alice Prentice Barrows 

Edward K. Barsky 

Prof. Bernard Baum 

Mordecai Bauman 

Howard Bay 

Prof. Irwin R. Beiler 

Thomas Bell 

Elmer Bendiner 

Aline Bernstein 

Leonard Bernstein 

Victor Bernstein 

Walter Bernstein 

Herbert J. Biberman 

Father Shelton Hale Bi- 
shop 

Dr. Algernon D. Black 

Boris Blai 

Betsy Blair 

Henry Blankfort 

Michael Blankfort 

Marc Blitzstein 

Dr. Joshua Bloch 

Kermit Bloomgarden 



Dr. E. M. Bluestone 

Prof. Henry Blumberg 

Hans Blumenfeld 

Dr. Ernst P. Boas 

Aaron Bohrod 

B. A. Botkin 

Kit hard G. Boyer 

Ray Boyle 

Joseph Brainin 

Prof. Theodore Brameld 

Millen Brand 

Jocelyn Brando 

Marlon Brando 

Prof. Dorothy Brewster 

J. Edward Bromberg 

Lucy Brown 

Rev. Thoburn T. Brum- 
baugh 

Lucile Brunei' 

Henrietta Buckmaster 

Richard Burgin 

Prof. Edwin Berry Bur- 
gum 

Paul Burlin 

Richard G. Burlingame' 

David Burliuk 

Prof. E. A. Burtt 

Adolph Busch 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 



837 



Dr. Allan M. Butler 
Witter Bynner 
Angus Cameron 
Ant dinette Cannon 
Dr. George D. Cannon 
Rabbi Jonah E. Caplan 
Rabbi D. A. Jessurun Car- 

dozo 
Prof. A. J. Carlson 
Prof. Rudolf Carnap 
Morris Carnovsky 
Saul Carson 
Alan Carter 
Norman Cazden 
Dr. Robert C. Challman 
Rev. Mark A. Chamberlin 
Charles Chaplin 
Allan Chase 
Prof. M. N. Chatterjee 
Serge Chermayeff 
Edward Chodorov 
Jerome Chodorov 
Henry S. Churchill 
Rev. Karl M. Chworowsky 
Nicolai Cikovsky 
Dr. Rufus E. Clement 
W. G. Clugston 
Robert M. Coates 
Lee J. Cobb 
Dr. Stanley Cobb 
Rabbi J. X. Cohen 
Lester Cole 
Fannie Cook 
Peter Copeland 
Aaron Copland 
Paul Corey 
Norman Corwin 
Prof. Frederick A. Courts 
Thomas Creighton 
Kyle Crichton 
Prof. Abraham Cronbach 
Dr. Ralph Crowley 
Rev. John W. Darr, Jr. 
Howard DaSilva 
Jules Dassin 
Dr. Leo M. Davidoff 
Jo Davidson 
Hallie Flanagan Davis 
Dr. Herbert John Davis 
Dr. Jerome Davis 
Dr. Percy M. Dawson 
Prof. John J. DeBoer 
Adolf Dehn 
Roger de Koven 
Jacob Deschin 
Stephen Deutch 
Albert Deutsch 
Earl B. Dickerson 
Dr. Albert C. Dieffenbach 
Dr. Hedley S. Dimock 
Dr. Marshall E. Dimock 
Edward Dmvtryk 
Martha Dodd 
Anton Dolin 



Exhibit 260— Continued 

Prof. Dorothy W. Douglas 

Prof. Harl R. Douglass 

Olin Downes 

Muriel Diaper 

Paul Draper 

W. E. B. DuBois 

Jane Dudley 

James Dugan 

Barrows Dunham 

Arnaud I >'Usxeau 

Richard Dyer Bennett 

Prof. Abraham Edel 

Prof. Stuart Edie 

Prof. Albert Einstein 

Dr. Robert H. Ellis 

Dr. Haven Emerson 

Prof. Thomas I. Emerson 

Guy Endore 

Lehman Engel 

Philip Evergood 

Prof. Henry Pratt Fair- 
child 

Fyke Farmer 

Howard Fast 

Prof. Robert D. Feild 

Jose Ferrer 

Leon Feuchtwanger 

Sidney Finkelstein 

Dorothy Canfield Fisher 

Irving H. Flamm 

Rev. Joseph Fletcher 

Prof. Frederick Wilhelm 
Foerster 

Prof. Joseph K. Folsom 

Clark Foreman 

Lukas Foss 

Sidney Fox 

Elizabeth Frazier 

Prof. Frank S. Freeman 

Joseph Gaer 

Arthur Gaeth 

Will Geer 

Louis Gelders 

Rev. Dr. Louis C. Ger- 
stein 

Leatrice Joy Gilbert 

Barbara Giles 

Josiah W. Gitt 

Vincent Glinsky 

Max Goberman 

Rabbi Herbert S. Gold- 
stein 

Vladimir Golschmann 

Henrietta L. Gordon 

Jay Gorney 

Harry Gottlieb 

Morton Gould 

James Gow 

Charles Graham 

Shirley Graham 

William Gropper 

Chaim Gross 

Paul Grotz 

Sidonie Gruenberg 



Ernest A. Grunsfeld, Jr. 

•lack Guilford 

Robert Gwathmey 

Uta Hagen 

Ernst Halberstadt 

Da*id Hall 

Margaret Halsey 

Prof. Talbot Hamlin 

1 tashiell Hammett 

E. Y. Harburg 

Minna Ilarkavy 

Prof. Georgia Darkness 

Prof. Frederick P. Harris 

Dr. Roy E. Harris 

Shelby M. Harrison 

Pearl M. Hart 

Frank E. Hartung 

Prof. Maritai Halhway 

Prof. David Hawkins 

Rev. Edler G. Hawkins 

Jane L. Hayford 

Prof. Michael Heidelber- 

ger 
Prof. Karl F. Heiser 
Lillian Hellman 
Edna Wolff Henner 
Hermann Herrey 
Stefan Heym 
Sammy Heyward 
Nat Pliken 

Dr. Ernest R. Hilcard 
Rev. Charles A. Hill 
Dr. Cecil E. Hinshaw 
Carmelita Hinton 
Joseph Hirsch 
Ira A. Hirschinann 
Rose Hobart 
Dr. W. Ernest Hocking 
Rev. Chester E. Hodgson 
Syd Hoff 
Judy Holliday 
Libby Holman 
Carroll Hollister 
Prof. Eugene C. Holmes 
Prof. Lee Elbert Holt 
Charles P. Howard 
John N. M. Howells 
Leo Hubermau 
Rev. Kenneth de P. 

Hughes 
Langston Hughes 
Kim LI u nter 
Mary Hunter 
Dr. W. A. Hunton 
Arthur Hurwich 
Leo T. Hurwitz 
Guy Hutchins 
Alfonso Iannelli 
Charles Irving 
Leon E. Janney 
Werner Janssen 
Prof. Otto T. Jelinek 
Dr. Charles S. Johnson 
Crockett Johnson 



bUblUN PUBLIC LIBRARY 

838 INTERLOCK! 3 ^^ ^^ ^^ NT 

Exhibit 2G0 — Continued 

Edna Ruth Johnson Prof. George Kalnitsky Stetson Kennedy- 
Reginald D. Johnson Garson Kanin Robert W. Kenny 
Dr. David D. Jones Rabbi Mordecai M. Kap- Rockwell Kent 
Matthew Josephson Ian Prof. T. J. Kent, Jr. 
Robert Josephy Paul Katz George R. Kernodle 
Robert Joyce Nora Kaye Hiltle Kiang 
Dr. Elvin A. Kabat Philip O. Keeney 
Albert E. Kabn Arthur Kennedy 

Mr. Morris. Miss Barrows, I think we asked you in executive session 
about a certain dinner party held in your home in 1933, which you 
pointed out to the committee had received some publicity at some 
subsequent time. There was a dinner party in your home, w T asn't 
there ? 

Miss Barrows. Yes. 

Air. Morris. Where was your home ? 

Miss Barrows. I was in Washington, but temporarily we were living 
in Virginia for the summer. 

Mr. Morris. Who w 7 ere the guests at dinner on that evening? Do 
you remember ? 

Miss Barrows. They were Robert W. Bruere, Hildegard Kneeland, 
Mary Taylor, David Cushman Coyle, and Laurence Todd. 

Mr. Morris. Now, was Laurence Todd with Tass at that time or 
was he with Federated Press? 

(Witness confers with counsel) . 

Miss Barrows. I don't know what he was with. I am not sure. He 
may have been with Tass at that time but I am not sure. 

Air. Morris. Miss Barrows, were you a Communist at that time ? 

Miss Barrows. I invoke the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Morris. Now, did you make any prearrangements with Mr. 
Lawrence Todd in connection with this dinner party ? 

Miss Barrows. Certainly I made no prearrangements with any- 
body. This was a social affair, and I invited guests. 

Mr. Morris. I see. And had Laurence Todd been an associate of 
yours prior to that time, or just a personal friend? 

Miss Barrows. Just like many other friends. 

Mr. Morris. Had you known him very well? I wish you would 
tell the committee to what extent you knew Air. Todd? 

Miss Barrows. I knew Mr. Todd as I knew all the other friends 
here in Washington, neither a close friend or more than any of the 
others. 

Mr. Morris. Tell me this: Had you attended Communist Party 
meetings with Mr. Todd ? 

(Witness confers with counsel.) 

Miss Barrows. I certainly didn't. 

Mr. Morris. You did not ? 

Miss Barrows. No. 

Senator Wfxker (presiding). Did you know Mr. Todd to be a 
member of the Communist Party? 

Miss Barrows. No. 

Mr. Morris. Are you a member of the Communist Party now. 
Miss Barrows. 

Miss Barrows. I invoke the fifth amendment. 



INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 839 

Mr. Morris. "Were you a member of the Communist Party when you 
left the Government employment in 1942 ? 

Miss Barrows. I invoke the fifth amendment. 

Mr. Morris. I have just one question, Miss Barrows, and then 
Senator Welker and Senator Butler probably have more. 

Would you give us a general description of what your role was as 
an educationist, using the Government's own term, while you were 
employed in the Federal Government I 

Miss Barrows. From the very beginning of the work, all through. 
I was the person in charge of making school building surveys and 
doing school building research, and though the titles were different, 
that is the actual work that, as I remember it, I did throughout. 

I may have written various different bulletins, and so on, but that 
was primarily my work. 

It consisted of — in those days there was a great deal of school build- 
ing because of the First World War, and the fact that school building 
had stopped, and when a local community was having difficulties in 
making up its mind, they would ask to have an expert come in and 
the city would pay for it, and I would go out and make the school 
building survey, and give the estimate of number of buildings needed 
and the cost. 

For example, in Portland, Oreg., a population of 360,000, I made 
a school building survey for the city. I think there were something 
over 25 surveys done there. 

Mr. Morris. Have you ever recruited teachers into the Communist 
Party? 

(Witness confers with counsel.) 

Miss Barrows. No. 

Mr. Morris. You never have ? 

Miss Barrows. (Shakes head in negative.) 

Senator Welker. Have you ever recruited anyone into the Com- 
munist Party ? 

Miss Barrows. I invoke the fifth amendment. 

Senator Welker. Have you ever met a Communist in your lifetime? 

Miss Barrows. I suppose everybody has, more or less, haven't they ? 

Senator Welker. Well, now, tell me some that you have met? 

Miss Barrows. I invoke the fifth amendment, 

Senator Welker. I insist that you answer since you opened up 
the subject matter. 

Miss Barrows. I did not say. 

Senator Welker. And told me that you had. 

Miss Barrows. I did not say one way or the other. 

Senator Welker. You said that you supposed everyone had met 
a Communist, With that supposition, will you tell me what caused you 
to believe that you, along with everyone else, have met a Communist ? 

(Witness confers with counsel.) 

Miss Barrows. I invoke the fifth amendment, 

Senator Welker. Now, at this dinner party about which counsel 
inquired, did } r ou see any Communists there that night? 

Miss Barrows. What? Is this the Wirt dinner? 

Senator Welker. Yes, the one that you had, the social affair that 
you had when you invited your friends. 

Miss Barrows. I have already invoked the fifth amendment, I un- 
derstood, in regard to the people at that party. 



840 INTERLOCKING SUBVERSION IN GOVERNMENT 

Mr. Morris. I do not think that you have. 

Miss Barrows. Because you asked me something about Mr. Todd. 

Mr. Morris. You said that you had never attended Communist 
meetings with Mr. Todd. 

Miss Barrows. I thought you had asked me about something else. 
What was your question, Senator ? 

Senator Welker. Were any Communists present at that social 
meeting, at that dinner meeting that you said you had, about which 
you testified? 

(Witness confers with counsel). 

Miss Barrows. I invoke the fifth amendment. 

Senator Welker. I think counsel asked you whether or not you 
ever attended any secret meetings of the Communist Party. 

Miss Barrows. I don't recollect that he asked me that question. 

Senator Welker. Then I will ask you : Have you ever attended any 
secret meetings of the Communist Party ? 

Miss Barrows. I invoke the fifth amendment. 

Senator Welker. Senator Butler. 

Senator Butler. I have no questions. 

Mr. Morris. Senator, I have some more questions. 

When did you first meet Henry Collins, Miss Barrows? 

Miss Barrows. I don't have any idea, Mr. Morris. As I said in 
secret session, I am 75 years old and I cannot remember back. That 
was some time — you are referring now to that period? 

Mr. Morris. Let me say this : You served here in the last year or 
two on a committee with Mr. Collins, did you not ? 

Miss Barrows. Yes — what do you mean "on a committee?" 

Mr. Morris. He was on the Marion Bachrach Committee with you ? 

Miss Barrows. I invoke the fifth amendment. That was not what 
I thought you were referring to. 

Mr. Morris. If you do not remember serving on the committee with 
Henry Collins, you should say that you do not remember. 

Miss Barrows. No — I invoke the fifth amendment on that. I 
thought you were referring to something else. 

Mr. Morris. Let me make this clear. If you have no recollection of 
attending a meeting with Henry Collins, you have to tell the commit- 
tee that you have no such recollection, because you would not be justi- 
fied in that in invoking the privilege. Do you understand that, Miss 
Barrows? 

(Witness confers with counsel.) 

Miss Barrows. I invoke the fifth amendment, Mr. Morris. 

Senator Welker. Senator Butler? 

Senator Butler. I have no questions. 

Senator Welker. Counsel, do you have questions ? 

Mr. Morris. I have no questions, Senator. 

Senator Welker. There being no further questions, the commit- 
tee will suspend. 

I would like to have a short executive session. 

(Whereupon, at 2 : 50 p. m., the committee proceeded to executive 
session and the open hearing was closed.) 



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