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Full text of "Interstate migration. Hearings before the Select Committee to Investigate the Interstate Migration of Destitute Citizens, House of Representatives, Seventy-sixth Congress, third session, pursuant to H. Res. 63 and H. Res. 491, resolution to inquire into the interstate migration of destitute citizens, to study, survey and investigate the social and economic needs and the movement of indigent persons across state lines"

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INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



HEARINGS 

BEFORE THE 

SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE 

INTERSTATE MIGRATION OF DESTITUTE CITIZENS 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

SEVENTY-SIXTH CONGRESS 

THIRD SESSION 

PURSUANT TO 

H. Res. 63 and H. Res. 491 

RESOLUTIONS TO INQUIRE INTO THE INTERSTATE 

MIGRATION OF DESTITUTE CITIZENS, TO STUDY, 

SURVEY AND INVESTIGATE THE SOCIAL AND 

ECONOMIC NEEDS AND THE MOVEMENT OF 

INDIGENT PERSONS ACROSS STATE LINES 



PART 3 
CHICAGO HEARINGS 

AUGUST 19, 20, AND 21, 1940 



Printed for the use of the Select Committee to Investigate the 
Interstate Migration of Destitute Citizens 




INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



HEARINGS 

BEFORE THE 

SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE 

INTEESTATE MIGEATION OF DESTITUTE CITIZENS 

HOUSE OF EEPEESENTATIVES 

SEVENTY-SIXTH CONGRESS 

THIED SESSION 
PURSUANT TO 

H. Res. 63 and H. Res. 491 

RESOLUTIONS TO INQUIRE INTO THE INTERSTATE 

MIGRATION OF DESTITUTE CITIZENS, TO STUDY, 

SURVEY AND INVESTIGATE THE SOCIAL AND 

ECONOMIC NEEDS AND THE MOVEMENT OF 

INDIGENT PERSONS ACROSS STATE LINES 



PART 3 
CHICAGO HEARINGS 

AUGUST 19, 20, AND 21, 1940 



Printed for the use of the Select Committee to Investigate the 
Interstate Migration of Destitute Citizens 




UNITED STATES 
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 
260370 WASHINGTON : 1940 



"'^'Sr ^~^T OF DOCUMENTS 



?^ 



1 



SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE INTERSTATE MIGRATION 
OF DESTITUTE CITIZENS 

JOHN H. TOLAN, California, Chairman 

CLAUDE V. PARSONS, Illinois CARL T. CURTIS, Nebraska 

JOHN J. SPARKMAN, Alabama FRANK C. OSMERS, Jr., New Jersey 



Dr. Robert K. Lamb, Chief Investigator 
Elmer A. Reese, Secretary 



Richard S. Blaisdell, Editar 
Harold D. Cdllbn, Associate Editor 



James S. Owens, Chief Field Investigator 
II 



LIST OF WITNESSES 



Chicago Hearings, August 19 and 20, 1940 

Page 

Abbott, Edith, dean of School of Social Service Administration, University 
of Chicago. Address : Chicago, 111 1178, 1183 

Batjes, Andrew, plumber's helper, later a migrant. Address : 1327 George 
Street, Chicago, 111 1056 

Beck, P. D., director, region III, Farm Security Administration. Address : 

Indianapolis, lud 1141, 1155 

Bennett, John B., migrant salesman. Address : 5256 East Grant Street, 

Chicago, 111 956 

Coldirou, Troy, migrant crop worker. Address : McGuffey, Ohio 1216 

de la Pole, Dorothy B., staff associate, National Travelers Aid Associa- 
tion. Address: New York, N. Y 912 

Deming, Ben, State supervisor, field office operations, Unemployment Com- 
pensation Division. Addi'ess : Indianapolis, Ind 976, 980 

Dwan, Mrs. Marguerite. Address : Benton Harbor, Mich 1231 

Else, Russell, migrant from Nebraska. Address : Superior, Wis 1173 

Friday, George, farm employer. Address : Coloma, Mich 1220, 1228 

Gould, Howard David, director of industrial relations and research, Chi- 
cago Urban League. Address: 3032 South Wabash Avenue, Chicago, 
111 1084, 1093 

Hanke, Mr. and Mrs. George, migrant woodworker. Address: Salvation 
Army Hotel, Chicago, 111 850 

Hart, John and Anna, former farmer. Address : Route 1, Whiteland, Ind_ 1016 

Harden, Owen, migi-ant worker 1165 

Hayden, Spurgeon, migrant, former sharecropper. Address : care of Mr. 
Howard Gould, Chicago Urban League, 3032 South Wabash Avenue, Chi- 
cago, 111 961 

Henderson, M. C, Beet Growers' Employment Committee, Inc. Address: 

Saginaw, Mich 1271 

Hiler, Albert Lewis, philatelist. Address : 811 West Lawrence Street, Chi- 
cago, 111 855 

Hunter, Joel D., general superintendent, United Charities of Chicago. Ad- 
dress : Chicago, 111 941,945 

Jacoby, Neil H, chairman, Illinois Emergency Relief Commission. Ad- 
dress: Chicago, 111 820 

Johnson, John A. and Opal, migrant cotton pickers. Address Salvation 

Army Family Service Bureau, Chicago, 111 1167 

Jones, Mary, invalid, migi-ant from Hawaii. Address: Salvation Army 

Family Service Bureau, Chicago, 111 966 

Kelly, Edward J., mayor of Chicago. Address : Chicago, 111 813 

Koppa, Dr. T. M., director, division of tuberculosis, Michigan Department 

of Health. Address: Lansing, Mich 1316,1319 

Lane, Frayser T., director, social and civic department, Chicago Urban 

League. Address : 3032 South Wabash Avenue, Chicago, 111 1084, 1093 

Lee, Karen and Kathryu, migrant service workers. Address: Salvation 

Army Emergency Home, Chicago, 111 907 

Lowden, Silas, migrant youth. Address : 2936 Prairie Street, Chicago, Ill__ 1026 

Lyons, Leo M , commissioner of relief, Chicago Relief Administration. Ad- 

dre.ss, Chicago, 111 867,878 

Marshall, Charles B., director, division of general administration, Indiana 

Department of Public Welfare. Address : Indianapolis, Ind__ 1061, 1069, 1076 

Mendenhail, Arthur, migrant youth from Kansas. Address: 2944 South 

Michigan Avenue, Chicago, 111 971 

III 



IV LIST OF WITNESSES 

Page 
Miller, James, uaturalized migrant steel worker. Address: 337 West 

Sixty-fifth Place, Chicago, 111 902 

Morgenthaler, H. W., administrative assistant, State Department of 

Public Welfare. Address : Columbus, Ohio 1106, 1128 

Murray, William G., professor of agricultural economics, lowti State Col- 
lege. Address : Ames, Iowa 997, 1001 

Nail, Harry C, Jr., research consultant attorneys, general section. Council 

of State Governments. Address: Chicago, 111 892,895 

Neira, Vincent, beet-sugar worker. Address : San Antonio, Tex 1310 

Odgers, Mrs. Catherine, migrant mother. Address: 1230 West Adams 

Street, Chicago, 111 1080 

Osborne, D. B., migrant from Nebraska. Address: Superior, Wis 1304 

Rowlands, W. A., district extension leader, professor of land economics. 

University of Wisconsin. Address : Madison, Wis 1028, 1035 

Shils, Edward, department of sociology. University of Chicago. Address : 
Chicago. Ill 888 

Stanchfield, Paul L., chief of research, statistics and planning section, 
Michigan Unemployment Compensation Commission. Address: 14320 
Woodward Avenue, Detroit, Mich 1195, 1210 

SuUinger, W. R., farm placement supervisor, Ohio State Employment 

Service. Address: Columbus, Ohio 1106 

Torkelson, M. W., secretary and executive officer, Wisconsin State Plan- 
ning Board. Address: State Office Building, Madison, Wis 1028,1035 

Tungate, Leander, migrant fruit and vegetable worker. Address : Route 

1, Greenwood, Ind 993 

White, Helen, midwestern migrate supervisor, Council of Women for 
Home Missions 1324, 1326 

Zgorski, Mrs. Jean, migrant mother deprived of settlement rights. Ad- 
dress : Salvation Army, Chicago, 111 949 

:Zon, Raphael, director. Lake States Forest Experiment Station. Ad- 
dress: St. Paul, Minn 1042,1049 



STATEMENTS AND MATERIAL SUBMITTED BY WITNESSES 



Subject and author 



Migrancy and Relief in Illinois 

Relief of Migrants in Chicago 

Case record, George Hanke case 

Historical Aspects of Urban Migration in 
the Midwest by Louis Wirth. 

Interstate Agreements for the Transfer of 
Dependent Migrants. 

Work of the National Travelers Aid Associ- 
ation. 

Summary of State Settlement Laws from 
Records of Harry M. Hirsch. 

Effect of Amendments to Illinois Pauper 
Law on Administration of Relief to 
Migrants. 

Letter of Township Supervisor, Thornton 
Village, Illinois. 

Migratory Agricultural Labor Problem in 
Indiana. 

Farm. Financial Situation in Middle West-- 

Rural Zoning and Land L^se in Wisconsin __ 

Population Changes in the Cut-over Region 
of Wisconsin. 

The Cut-over Region — the Breeding Place 
of Migrants. 

Letter from Gov. M. Clifford Townsend of 
Indiana. 

Migration and Transient Activity in Indi- 
ana. 

Letter and statement from Leo X. Smith, 
of Indiana Township Trustees Associa- 
tion. 

Negro Migration — Its Problems and Con- 
trol, by Dr. Horace R. Cayton. 

The Problem as it Affects the State of 
Minnesota, by Walter W. Finke. 

Statement by Members of Ohio State 
Transient Com.mittee. 

Reducing Migration Through Adjustment 
of People to Land. 

Letter from Miss S. P. Breckinridge 

A New Plan for Caring for Migrant Work- 
ers. 

Industrial Migration, its Magnitude and 
Geographic Character. 

Benton Harbor Market Summary 

Agricultural Labor in Berrien County, 
Mich. 

Migrant Problems in Berrien County, 
Mich. 

Transient Labor in the Michigan Com- 
munity Health Project, by W. K. 
Kellogg Foundation. 

The Employment Problem in the Beet 
Fields. 



Introduced by witness 



Neil H. Jacoby. 
Leo M. Lyons. - 
Leo M. Lyons. 
Edward Shils__ 



Harry C. Nail, Jr 

Dorothy B. de la Pole... 
Dorothy B. de la Pole.-. 
Joel D. Hunter 



Joel D. Hunter. 
Ben Deming 



Wm. G. Murray _- 
W. A. Rowlands.. 
M. W. Torkelson. 



Raphael Zon 

Charles B. Marshall. 
Chas. B. Marshall. - 
Chas. B. Marshall- - 



Howard D. Gould — 
Claude V. Parsons... 
H. W. Morgenthaler. 
P. D. Beck 



Edith Abbott 

Paul L. Stanchfield. 



George Friday. 
George Friday. 



Marguerite Dwan. 
A. Kramer 



Page 



M. C. Henderson. 



820, 833 

867 

884 



893 

912 

929, 930 

942 

947 

977 

997 
1028 
1032 

1042 

1061 

1062 

1070 

1084 

1103 

1106 

1142 

1172 
1179 

1195 

1225 
1229 

1231 

1256 

1271 



VI STATEMENTS AND MATERIAL SUBMITTED BY WITNESSES 



Subject and author 



Emigrant Agency Law of Texas. _ 
Letter from Otis E. Mulliken, U. S. De- 
partment of Agriculture, Sugar Division. 
Letter from J. F. Thaden, Michigan State 
College of Agriculture. 

Digest of Motor Carrier Act of 1935 

Letter from Erwin H. Kubath, deputy 

sheriff, Berrien Co., Mich. 
Health Examination Program for Mexi- 
can Agricultural Workers, by A. W. 
Newitt, M. D. 
Letter from U. S. Public Health Service. .. 

The Church and Migratory Workers 

Relation of Transiency to Crime, by F. 
Emory Lyon. 

Letter from Dr. Roscoe PuUiam 

The Migratory Worker in Michigan, by 
George F. Granger. 

Letter from National Negro Congress 

The Tuberculous Transient — a Socio- 
Economic Problem, by M. A. Seidenfeld, 
Ph. D. 



Introduced by witness 



A. Kramer 

A. Kramer 

A. Kramer 

A. Kramer 

A. Kramer 

Dr. T. M. Koppa 

Robert K. Lamb. 

Helen White 

Robert K. Lamb. 

Robert K. Lamb. 
Robert K. Lamb. 

Robert K. Lamb. 
Robert K. Lamb. 



1299 
1301 

1302 

1302 
1303 

1317 



1323 
1324 
1326 

1336 
1337 

1342 
1343 



I 



Jl^TERSTATE MIGRATION 



MONDAY, AUGUST 19, 1940 

House of Representatives, 
Select Committee to Investigate the 
Interstate Migration of Destitute Citizens, 

Washington^ D. G. 

The committee met at 10 a. m. in the Federal Court Building, Chi- 
cago, 111., Hon. John H. Tolan (chairman) presiding: 

Present: Representatives John H. Tolan (chairman), Claude V. 
Parsons, John J. Sparkman, Carl T. Curtis, and Frank C. Osmers, Jr. 

Also present: Dr. Robert K. Lamb, chief investigator; James S. 
Owens, chief field investigator; A. Kramer, field investigator; John 
W. Abbott, field investigator; Ariel E. V. Dunn, field investigator; 
Joseph N. Dotson, field investigator; Robert H. Eagan, field secretary. 

The Chairman. The committee will please come to order. Let the 
record show the presence of Congressman Parsons, of Illinois ; Con- 
gressman Sparkman, of Alabama, and Congressman Curtis, of Ne- 
braska. Congressman Osmers, of New Jersey, will be here late this 
afternoon. 

Mayor Kelly, you may take this seat, if you will, please. I want 
to say on behalf of the committee, Mr. Mayor, that we feel honored 
in having you as our first witness here. We started out in New York 
with your friend, I know, Mayor LaGuardia. We very much appre- 
ciate your attendance here today. You may proceed in any way you 
see fit. 

TESTIMONY OF HON. EDWARD J. KELLY, MAYOR OF THE CITY OF 

CHICAGO 

Mayor Kelly. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am glad to be liere. 
We appreciate that you are giving up a lot of valuable time, and we 
of Chicago appreciate it very much. Chicago welcomes the activities 
of this committee, which is investigating the interstate migration of 
destitute people. 

As a large industrial city that is quickly affected by business set- 
backs and seasonal slumps in unemployment, there is this fairly unified 
conviction about the problem of relief : 

First, that the morale of the jobless is best conserved by a work 
and wages program, under Federal aid and control. 

Secondly, the drastic requirements relating to the sponsored contri- 
butions to be made by cities have frequently prevented their partici- 
pation in many worth-while projects. 

I realize that you are investigating the plight of destitute citizens 
and not the problem of financing local relief projects — ^but there are 

81S 



g|4 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

ceHuiri collatoral issues affectin^r the micrratory workers which should 
be lii^h-li^hted by your investigation. 

ISIIGIUTION PROBLEM IN CHICAGO 

Cliieajjo is so located, as the economic and .social hub of the West, 
tliat many people from the South, the East, and the West, who have 
lost their work opportunities— who have been tractored ott the land— 
or who have been unable to maintain a decent standard m their own 
comirnmifies- have drifted naturally toward a big city like Chicago. 

Many families, made hopeful by misinformation, have journeyed to 
Chicago, believing that it's a mecca of opportunity. 

And Chicago has felt the same shocks and had to provide the same 
cushions for unemployment as other large industrial areas. 

Becjiuse Chicago is a transportation center it has become a stopping 
place for many thousands of joble,ss who had been displaced in other 
cities. Our re'lief facilities have been taxed greatly. 

ll(M-ent amendments which were made by the State legislature to 
the paujx'i- laws of Illinois set up a 3-year residence law. This provi- 
sion made it mandatory in the administration of relief to give 
assistance only to those needy pei-sons who had resided m Illinois for 
3 yciii's [)rece(rnig their api)licati(m for help. 

■(;hic,ag() caniiol and does not ignore the privations that many of 
these pe7)ple suilVr— and private charitable organizations have faced 
a staggei-ing burden in trying to cope with this emergency. 

Without supi)ort from' Federal agencies, the relief program of our 
public and ])rivate agencies would have been so seriously disrupted 
us to be helpless in meeting the problem of caring for the needy and 



tlie lobless. 



ijir |mm■^h. . 

Chicago is more than anxious to remain the city of opportunity and 
is hapi)v to know that business opportunities are increasing — as the 
latest figures on factoi'y i)i-()duction and pay-roll indexes will prove. 

I might say hero that this up-surge of business has been felt with- 
out the additional improvement that will come from the preparedness 
ju-ogram — and we know that Chicago will benefit from that gubstan- 
tialfv. 

('liicago does not want to set up any barriers which would keep 
worthy ])eople from the work opportunities which will develop in 
the future. Chicago does not want to be deprived of the energy and 
determination of men and Avomen — skilled and unskilled— -who are 
anxious to obtain a livelihood here and to make a contribution to 
the neighborhood in which they live. 

We can expect a certain exjxinsion of our industries to meet the 
new economy, both of national tlefense and new trade opportunities in 
the Americas. But Chicago wants to be realistic about its oppor- 
tunities, both for the citizens now living here, who deserve its oppor- 
tunities, and for other citizens who may come here. 

However, we are not hanging up any wide open "welcome"' signs 
for any and all individuals to come here, because they have been 
unable to earn a decent livelihood in other cities. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 815 

The iDrobleni of the migratory worker did not have its origin in 
Chicago — in the 50 wards and the 75 communities of this city we 
have a solid and substantial citizenry, with many thousands of small 
homeowners and small taxpayers who have been the backbone of the 
city's enterprise and growth. 

Their responsibility to their connnunity and their eagerness to 
build up a good life among good neighbors has been one of their 
highest motives in building communities in Chicago, 

We can see that this problem in its basic aspects goes back to the 
farm lands — to the flood and Dust Bowl areas — where people have 
been swept off the land — and also those shifting industrial and sea- 
sonal farm conditions which may require large pools of labor at one 
time of the year, but not at another. Chicago is not a one-industry 
city. 

And because of the variety of work opportunities in its manufac- 
turing and connnercial life there has been, despite world panic and 
economic upheavals, a better-than-average stability in our productive 
enterprises. 

There has been a closer cooperation between numicipal, business, 
and civic groups to strengthen Chicago's physical and spiritual 
assets. 

There are many liabilities creat-ed by the niflux of migratory work- 
ers that make this investigation of yours a pertinent, constructive 
duty of the Federal Government. 

lunderstand that our relief commissioner, Leo Lyons, has prepared 
a break-down and a good summation on the problem as it affects 
Chicago. And I understand, also, that Chicago's able and competent 
commissioner of public works, Oscar Hewitt, will also be available 
for questioning on this relief problem. 

RECOMMENDATIONS MIGRATION IS FEDERAL PROBLEM 

I would not like to propose today a comprehensive solution to the 
problems of interstate migration. 

I would like the indulgence of your committee and permission to 
file with you at a later date a complete statement concerning the 
problem and its possible solution as we see it — and by "we" I mean 
not only myself and the relief officials of the city of Chicago, but 
also the mayors of the cities of the United States who are organized 
in the National Conference of Mayors. 

All of us who belong to that organization have a definite stake in 
the work of this committee, and we feel that the statement which is 
ultimately presented to you should incorporate the views and opinions 
of all the mayors of the United States. 

I would say in general, however, that I feel now as I felt when I 
testified in Washington in 1939 before the House committee inves- 
tigating the Works Progress Administration, that cities cannot be 
perpetually expected to carry the relief burdens imposed upon them. 

I feel that the problem of migration is not an issue which confronts 
Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, or other isolated areas on our maps, 
but that it is a problem which encompasses the entire United States, 



§]^Q INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

and for this reason I am strongly inclined to the belief that the solution 
of the problem lies in some form of Federal aid and supervision. 

The problems of relief have grown too complex, and the numerous 
local bodies who administer relief are sometimes overlapping and 
costly. It is my opinion that the Federal administration of work re- 
lief has been remarkably free from misuse of power or funds, and 
should continue to supervise such spending. 

And I know that Chicago has, under the most trying circumstances, 
an eminently clean record in its assistance programs for the needy and 
the unemployed. 

Chicago would do much more if it could — but already its resources 
have been stretched to the limit in its endeavor to keep up the morale 
and to prevent starvation among the unfortunate and the underpriv- 
ileged. We cannot provide more relief with less money. 

But surely this type of investigation should bring to light the means 
and methods whereby relief for the migratory worker can be on a more 
practical basis. 

Chicago has frequently faced this problem with a good heart but 
an empty purse, and unless Federal moneys are available we cannot 
wishfully think ourselves into its solution. 

We are happy to cooperate with the Federal Government in this in- 
vestigation. 

We trust that during your stay in Chicago you will develop some 
real contributions and some sound answers to the questions you have 
in mind. 

You may count on the mayor's office for any assistance within its 
power to render or give. Thank you. 

The Chairman. Mr. Mayor, speaking for myself, as chairman of 
the committee, I think that is a remarkable statement that you have 
presented, and a fine contribution to our record. You will be per- 
mitted to insert in the record any statement, any additional state- 
ment, you see fit. 

Mayor Kelly. Thank you. 

The Chairman. I am glad to hear you say you think this investiga- 
tion is worth while, Mr. Mayor. There are about 4,000,000 people 
annually who go from State to State, and when they get there, they 
are foodless, homeless, jobless, Stateless, and hopeless. 

SETTLEMENT LAWS 

You have a 3-year residence law, is it, now ? 

Mayor Kelly. Yes. 

The Chairman. Some States have a 5-year residence law, and some 
as low as 6 months. 

Mayor Kelly. Yes. 

The Chairman. If we could get some uniformity in that type of 
legislation, there would be one solution; but there is not just one 
answer. There are several answers to this proposition. 

In the first place, the 48 States have been very careful not to raise 
any tariff barriers on other States for the shipment of commodities. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 817 

but tliey are raising barriers now against human interstate commerce, 
are tliey not? 

Mayor Kelly. Yes. 

The Chairman. As you pointed out, it is a big problem. Do you 
not feel, Mr. ISIayor, it is a national problem? 

Mayor Kelly. I do. I think 3 years is too long. I know of many 
instances where it has been a real hardship. I can cite one case of a 
young colored man who came here thinking that he could get work, 
or get relief. Of course, he was not recognized. He became a high- 
wayman. He shot a policeman. The policeman shot him. He got 
199 years in the penitentiary. It does not seem to me as though there 
was anything else for that man to do. He was starving. He could 
not get on relief. He could not get a job. He could not get any- 
thing. He finished up with 199 years. 

No doubt there are a lot of criminals created because of the fact 
they cannot get adequate relief. 

The Chairman. I do not know whether you read an article entitled 
"A Native at Large," by Jonathan Daniels in The Nation of August 
10, 1940; but I brought it down here because I have read your state- 
ment, and so many things j^ou said, he said. 

I just want to call your attention to this : 

But I am glad the migrants moved, even to brutal murder in Chicago, mass 
violence in California. This business back of Bigger Thomas, this business which 
drove the Joads, is not a migrant problem. The migrants are only the messen- 
gers, carrying both news and shame to the whole land. California did not like 
it, and Chicago is not entirely pleased about it. That is not hard to understand. 

The reason the landlords tied up their tractors to the tenant houses and pulled 
them down was that not even the toughest landlords want hungry children on 
their places, under their eyes. What I fear now is that in California and 
Chicago, New York, and Detroit, the war abroad will pull all our home memories 
down. I am grateful to Congressmen and novelists and playwrights, to every- 
body who keeps these people under our eyes. The only answer will come from 
uninterrupted attention. They will not stop starving or moving because they 
are forgotten. 

That is quite correct, do you not agi-ee, Mr. Mayor ? 

Mayor Kelly. Yes; absolutely. 

The Chairman. Now, there is the thought, since we have been 
investigating this matter, that they should stay in their States of 
origin ; that they should stay at home ; but there are thousands driven 
from the land. They are not going to sit down and die. That is the 
problem. 

I might say to you, Mr. Mayor, that the Farm Security Administra- 
tion has taken care of 800,000 families in the South. That is, they have 
loaned them a horse, or a mule, or a cow or seed, and 85 percent are 
paying the money back ; but there are still 500,000 families uncared for. 

We do not claim that we have found the answer, but we are certainly 
going to do our very best to get all the facts, and you have given us a 
very fine contribution this morning. On behalf of this committee, I 
wish to thank you, Mr. Mayor. 

Mr. Parsons. Up until recently the settlement law was for 1 year in 
the State? 

Mayor Kelly. Yes. 



gj^g INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. Parsons. Was it because of so many coming in and applying for 
relief that the legislature raised the settlement time from 1 year to 3 
years? 

Mayor Kelly. Congressman Parsons, that law did not originate in 
Chicago, to my knowledge, or the change in the law. 

Mr. Parsons. I see. 

Mayor Kelly. There was so much talk about many people coining in 
and taking the place of others, it was considered necessary to pass it in 
the legislature. I do not know how much it amounts to. I do not know 
how many people it keeps out, if any. 

Whether it is paid for by the State or the Nation, somebody has to 
lake care of tliem, when they come here. I do not know who it is, but 
they are taken care of one way or another. Whether they are taken 
care of by the fact that they take what they want, or they work cheaper, 
or do things that the average man would not do, I do not know. 

However, if they are coming in. they are living. They are not dying 
from starvation. 1 do not know whether that change originated w^ith 
the relief commission, or whether it originated within the mind of some 
member of the legislature. It did not originate in the city adminis- 
tration. 

Mr. Parsons. There have been two schools of thought along that 
line, as we have gone from place to place. There is one school of 
thought among the social-service group that advocates the abolition of 
all settlement laws. Then there is another school of thought which 
Iiolds that we should probably have settlement laws, but they should be 
uniform in the various States. 

Mayor E^elly. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. Would you advocate uniformity, or complete abolition 
of settlement laws? 

Mayor Kelly. Perhaps I do not understand just exactly what you 
mean by the term "settlement laws." Will you explain what you mean 
by that term? 

ITNirORMITY IN RESIDENCE REQUIREMENTS 

Mr. Parsons. I mean the same as the residence requirement here 
that the legislature has changed to 3 years. Some States have as high 
as 5 years. There are two or three States in which it only takes 6 
months until they can apply for relief. Would you advocate the 
repeal of all of the settlement laws of the States, or would you advocate 
uniformity of all the settlement laws of the States ? 

Mayor Kelly. Well, I think there ought to be uniformity, and I 
think the kind and character of the man or person ought to guide the 
settlement law requirements. For instance, if a man is a professional 
traveler who travels all over the country and drops in here and there 
just to get a living, that is one thing. But if a man has a family and 
he is a good citizen of the United States living in "Squeedunk," Iowa, 
or some other place, and he has no chance to live, I think it is rather 
cruel to keep him from living in the city to which he wants to go. 

If he cannot get work, he ought to be taken care of in some manner. 
I do not believe in making everybody starve just because they 
do not live in a certain district. I really think that those who have 



INTEHSTATE MIGRATION 819 

come here should be taken care of some way or another. We have to 
pay taxes, and pay a lot of taxes, but you have to take the good and 
bad in every city, regardless of what might happen. 

I think if it was a national law, or if it was uniform m every way, 
it might stop some of these people who are tramping from one State 
to the other, because they might have a record of them from one State 
to another, and vou would know just what was going on. 

There are professional reliefers just as there are professional every- 
thing elses. 

Mr. Sparkman. We are not concerned with them. 

The Chairman. We are concerned with the good citizen who wants 
to move and wants his family to move. 

I^Iayor Kelly. I think Chicago has shown that she w^ould be glad 
to take care of that kind of people. 

The Chairman. I do know that Chicago has done a wonderful job 
in taking care of destitute citizens. 

Mr. Parsons. It is the thought of some that if you abolish the settle- 
ment laws you probably encourage a lot of people to become profes- 
sional travelers. 

Mayor Kelly. As I say, there is a way of checking those. You can 
check them very easily. 

Mr. Parsons. Of course, the only matter in which the Congress has 
any jurisdiction is the matter of interstate migration. We cannot 
touch the settlement laws; but if the Federal Government gave the 
States grants-in-aid, then our jurisdiction would probably follow the 
dollar as it has in a good many other things. 

It is my idea that there should be uniformity, probably not to exceed 
1 year, and that, of course, would put the damper upon the profes- 
sional, because he would know he could not leave Illinois and run over 
into Wisconsin because relief might be better there and apply for 
relief the next day after he arrived. 

However, I think 3 years is much too long. 

Mayor Kelly. You could use the other way too. You could have 
a national check on all relief. A man is supposed to stay on relief 
a certain time, or work relief a certain time, and you could have 
it apply in every State. If a man got to be a professional reliefer, 
and he would not take a W. P. A. job, or any other job, he could 
be off relief all over the country. 

If you had no checks, he could be jumping from State to State, and 
you would not have any record. That would be his business, that 
of a racketeer in relief. Those are the things I think the Government 
could remedy, many other things along that line. 

The Chairman. Your statement is a very splendid one. Mayor 
Kelly. I am very happy that you were able to come down here this 
morning. 

Mayor Kelly. I am glad to be with you. 

The Chairman. The city is very well represented this morning. 

Mayor Kelly. Thank you. 

(Whereupon, Mayor Kelly w^as excused.) 

The Chairman. Mr. Jacoby. 



g20 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

TESTIMONY OF NEIL H. JACOBY, CHAIRMAN ILLINOIS EMERGENCY 
RELIEF COMMISSION, CHICAGO, ILL. 

The Chairman. Will you state your full name and official ca- 
pacity for the record, please, Mr. Jacoby? 

Mr. Jacoby. Neil H. Jacoby, chairman, Illinois Emergency Relief 
Commission, Chicago, 111. 

Mr. Parsons. Mr. Jacoby, I have read your statement. This is 
the third hearing we have conducted. I want to say to you that 
this statement of yours is one of the most illuminating that I have 
heard presented to the committee. Some of the other members who 
just arrived this morning have not had time to read it. I am going 
to ask you to read the first six pages. It will not take very long. I 
think it will be of interest to the committee and those assembled 
here. 

Mr. Jacoby. First of all, I would like to say on behalf of Governor 
Henry Horner, whom I have the honor to represent, and as chair- 
man of the Illinois Emergency Relief Commission, that I cordially 
welcome the honorable members of this committee to the State of 
Illinois. I hope your hearings in the city of Chicago will be pro- 
ductive of aid in the solution of problems of interstate migration 
of destitute citizens. 

I might add that had Governor Horner been physically able to 
appear, I have a strong feeling he would have been here. I know 
he has a sincere personal interest in everj'thing that concerns public 
welfare. 

Mr. Parsons. It is very regrettable that the Governor is unable 
to be here. I know if his health permitted, he would be at this 
hearing. I know he would welcome the opportunity to be present. 
I know of his very keen interest in matters of public welfare and 
the human equation. We regret very sincerely that he cannot be 
here, and I wish you would convey to him our sincere best wishes. 

Mr. Jacoby. I shall do so. 

Mr. Parsons. You may read the first six and a half pages. I 
have gone over it, and I think it is quite illuminating. 

Mr. Jacoby. (Reading:) It is a pleasure to appear before this 
committee and to make a statement on these most important prob- 
lems. Few public issues are, in my opinion, more deserving of atten- 
tion from the citizens of this country today than the plight of needy 
American citizens who wander from State to State, and who seem to 
be wanted nowhere. Careful consideration must be given to all of 
the ramifications of the problem, so that an intelligent approach may 
be made to its solution. "Snap'* judgments on so difficult an issue 
are bound to be faulty. 

The selection of Chicago and the State of Illinois for first-hand 
observation of migration is an indication of sound judgment on the 
part of this committee. The State of Illinois lies at the cross roads of 
the Nation. From East and West, from North and South come men, 
women, and children en route to seek their fortunes elsewhere. The 
metropolitan region of Chicago is a point of convergence of all modes 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 821 

of transportation. It is one of the most highly industrialized regions 
in the Nation. The State of Illinois also contains a large rural popula- 
tion, and the conflict between urban and rural ideas of government is 
no less severe in this State than anywhere else in the United States. 

Wliile prophets of doom have been decrying the disappearance of 
the counti-y's geogi'aphical frontier, Illinois still remains a State of 
opportunity. Its large and varied natural resources still await the 
application of human ingenuity and initiative. As one illustration, I 
might note that during the past 4 years a great new oil-producing area 
has been discovered in the central part of Illinois, and this State has 
moved up to fourth position in the roster of oil-producing States. All 
these factors have a definite bearing upon the problem of interstate 
migration of destitute citizens. 

With your permission, I should like initially to turn the attention of 
the committee to some of the broader, more fundamental issues, raised 
by the general problem of migration. 

DESLRABLLITY OF MIGRATION 

First of all, is migration desirable? The general answer to this 
question, I think, must definitely be in the affirmative. If we desire to 
obtain the best combination of productive resources, and to produce 
the greatest amount of material wealth for the people of this country, 
we nuist permit our human and physical resources freely to be trans- 
ferred to places of greatest employment opportunity both rapidly and 
economically. In a free-enterprise economy, such as our own, free 
exchange in the market place and private enterprise are mainly relied 
upon to achieve this end. We assume that each person will seek to 
l)ursue his own best interests, and that the lure of personal advantage 
will bring together business ability, capital, and labor in the most 
economical manner. 

This will be recognized as a simple statement of the doctrines first 
propounded by the so-called classical economic thinkers of the nine- 
teenth century. Although this doctrine is no longer accepted with 
unanimity, and certainly requires modification in the light of present- 
day conditions, it is deserving of attention if only because it was based 
on the keen obseiwation of some of the greatest thinkers of the eight- 
eenth and nineteenth centuries, among whom are included founders 
and leading citizens of this Nation. 

It is hard to deny that human experience bears out the wisdom of 
this doctrine in its general terms. Migration has served as the back- 
ground for some of the greatest historical episodes of mankind. The 
journeys of our Biblical forefathers, the voyages of Columbus and of 
our great explorers, the hazards faced by our colonial ancestors, the 
movement of covered wagons across trackless prairies all attest to the 
fundamental nature of human migration. 

Our founding fathers sought to establish mobility of labor and 
of commerce when they wrote into the Constitution of the United 
States a prohibition against obstructions to interstate trade in this 
greatest of all free-trade areas. 



822 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Let me add, at this point, Mr. Chairman, the thought which you 
touched upon a little earlier. We have had a great deal of public 
discussion on the growth of barriers to the interstate trade of com- 
modities. It seems to me that one of those barriers, not in commodi- 
ties, but to the movement of humanity, is actually becoming far more 
serious. 

We have gone from a 1-year settlement law in Illinois to a 3-year 
settlement law. We have had disputes with the State of Indiana, 
I know, whereby they refused to take care of citizens of oursi who 
have moved into Indiana unless we in turn agree to take care of their 
destitute citizens moving here. 

Unless some stop is put to this trend, I can see us going from 5-year 
residence laws to 10-year residence Jaws and ultimately freezing our 
popuhition where they are found. When that happens, it seems to 
me we have lost one of the great forces for progress in this country. 

The Chairman. I wonder if I could interrupt vou just a moment, 
Mi\ Jacoby? 

Mr. Jacobt. Yes. 

The Chairman. Off the record. 

(Discussion outside the record.) 

Mr. Parsons. I wag interested in your presenting the first six 
pages, and the first five lines on page 7, as I have it here. 

DISSEMINATION OF INFORMATION 

Mr. Jacoby. That migration does not in every case result in gain 
to the individual and to society was, of course, recognized by the 
"classical" economic thinkers. Lack of accurate knowledgei by the 
migi-ant was considered to be a chief obstacle to the succesis of migra- 
tion. A man who moves to another State merely because of rumors 
of well-paid employment that are baseless, is not bettering his own 
condition or that of society. 

Even migration based on knowledge of the best available facts 
leaves room for risk and misfortnne. But it raises the probability of 
advantageous migration far above aimless movement in ignorance 
of the relevant facts. It would appear to be a proper function of 
government to make all facts available regarding employment oppor- 
tunities to potentially migrant people. This seems to be an element 
in an intelligent policy. 

I might say that I have not probably thought through all the rami- 
fications as to how tlie dissemination of better information and the 
prevention of the dissemination of untrue information can be brought 
about. I have a feeling that the Federal Employment Service has 
not functioned as effectively in this field as it might. Some means 
might be developed whereby the Employment Service would make; 
available to people on relief, and especially the migrant, thei fticts 
regarding job oj^portunities, regarding costs of living, regarding 
wage rates, and so forth, in other areas. 

Too much of the information that is now being disseminated seems 
to be misinformation. 

It may be asked whether these principles apply to the utterly 
destitute migrant as well as those having private resources. Prob- 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION g23 

ably destitute migrants are governed in their moA^ements by much 
the same motivesi as other migrants. They may be handicapped by 
lack of means to migrate. They may not liave as full knowledge of 
the facts regarding employment opportunities as others, but they too 
may be expected to migrate when they believe it is to their best, 
long-run interests to do so. The problem is whether there are any 
special inducements for destitute migration not present in the case 
of self-supporting citizens, that call for special limitations on the 
movement of the destitute. 

CAUSES OF MIGRATION 

Migration rarely occurs for a single, clear-cut reason. Most often 
people decide to move for a combination of reasons, although one of 
these reasons may at the time predominate. One of the dominant 
reasons is unquestionably to accept or to seek einployment. We 
have no data to indicate the number of persons now employed in 
Chicago and in Illinois who came from other States in a destitute 
or near-destitute condition. Undoubtedly, they number in the tens 
of thousands. 

Even in the darkest days of the depression of 1929-1932, some 
people were coming from other States and cities and were obtaining 
employment in Illinois. Still other thousands came to Illinois to 
seek employment, but were disappointed. "VMiat happened to them 
we do not know. Some returned home or moved on to seek employ- 
ment elsewhere. Others remained here to live with relatives and 
friends. Still others waited until their resources! gave out, and 
applied for relief. 

The paradox is that people continue to migrate to Illinois in order 
to obtain employment, wliild thousands of Illinois residents hava 
remained unemployed and are seeking work. Some of this migra- 
tion — ^unfortunately we have no way of estimating it — is probably 
due to lack of adequate knowledge. Insofar as this is the case, every 
eifort should be made by governmental authorities to make informa- 
tion on employment opportunities more readily available, and to 
improve existing sources of information. 

A considerable amount of migration occurs because positions are 
already waiting here, for example, for highly skilled workers not 
available in the State, or because employers have moved their plants 
into the State from other States. There are numerous reasons other 
than, oi' in addition to, the search for employment that bring desti- 
tute people to Illinois. Some individuals become stranded in the 
State while on their way to definite destinations. Others come to 
stay with relatives. Still others come for educational purposes or 
for medical care. 

It is often stated that the majority of destitute persons migrate to 
Illinois chiefly to get on the relief rolls. Little tangible evidence is 
available on this point, and I believe it would be very difficult either 
to prove or disprove this claim. People will not, of course, readily 
admit that they came to the State simply to get on relief rollsi, even if 
such was the case. There seems to be no way of ascertaining defi- 



260370— 40— pt. 3- 



g24 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

nitely which, of all the reasons for migrating, was dominant in the 
mind of the migrant at the time he decided to move. 

It is nevertheless difficnlt to deny that the availability of more 
generous relief elsewhere does provide one of the inducements to 
migration by the destitute or near-destitute, but the strength of 
this factor cannot be weighed. When relief grants are higher at 
home, this probably is a deterrent to migration. When relief grants 
are more generous elsewhere, it probably is an inducement to migra- 
tion. Kesidence requirements for relief also affect migration. 

If migration results in loss of settlement and ineligibility for 
relief at home, and also in ineligibility for relief elsewhere because 
of lack of residence requirements, this will form a powerful deter- 
rent to migration, providing the destitute person is aware of these 
facts. If no residence requirements exist, migration may be stimu- 
lated. Thus the availability of relief, the scale of relief grants, 
and residence requirements, while perhaps not sufficient in them- 
selves to induce or deter migration, may exert considerable influ- 
ence on it. They may often ''tip the scales" one way or another for 
persons considering migration. [Reading ends.] 

Mr. Parsons. That is as far as I had planned to have you read. 

Mr. Jacoby. Very well. 

Mr. Parsons. That is a very illuminating statement. It gets right 
at the crux of this question. Do you believe, Mr. Jacoby, that any 
restriction should be placed on the migration of citizens, destitute, 
or self-supporting ? 

Mr. Jacoby. Congressman Parsons, as this statement indicates, I 
think the general answer to the question is "no"; that people ought 
to be free to move throughout the Nation. The minute we have some 
governmental agency, whether it is Federal or State, telling the 
people "You must go here" or "You must work there," we are losing 
one of the essential features of what we call a democratic! govern- 
ment, and are coming pretty close to the Hitler type of economics. 
I think we ought to avoid that. 

The main qualification is that people must move in an informal 
way. They must know why they are moving and for what reasons. 

Mr. Parsons. If our people had not been permitted to migrate, we 
would not have had this fine, beautiful land of ours settled up, 
would we? 

Mr. Jacoby. I believe that. 

Mr. Parsons. As a migrant said to the chairman and myself the 
other day in Washington just before we left, they would not sit 
down and starve ; they are not going to sit down and die. They are 
going to travel somewhere, both the self-supporting and destitute 
citizens. 

Mr. Jacoby. That is true. You cannot blame them. 

accurate information on job conditions should be disseminated 

Mr. Parsons. That is right. Do you believe that the dissemina- 
tion of accurate information concerning job opportunities or the 
lack of job opportunities will tend to reduce migration ? 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 825 

Mr, Jacoby. Well, now, I would think in a time of depression 
such as we have experienced, if the people were more accurately in- 
formed about lack of jobs elsewhere, there probably would have 
been less migration. On the other hand, when business is fairly pros- 
perous the chances are more accurate knowledge and dissemmation 
of information might lead to some more migration. That actually 
occurs. In other words, it is a matter of the state of business. 

Mr. Parsons. I remember when Boulder Dam work was started. 
It was just getting underway about the time I wa,s elected to Con- 
gress the first time. Of course, the depression was just begimiing, 
and a tremendous number of migrants were starting on the tramp. 
There were more than 100,000 people that pulled into that little town 
out there near Boulder Dam. They were camped all along the banks 
of the river up and down wherever they could get a place to light, in 
the hope that they were going to be employed on that vast project. 

When the T. V. A. opened in 1933 and 1934 and got underway in 
the Tennessee Valley, I know they had 165,000 applications for jobs, 
I do know that there were literally thousands that went up and down 
that valley, hoping that they would obtain the opportunity to work, 
in spite of the fact that the law itself and the newspapers carried the 
information and the T. V. A. authorities advertised it widely that 
no one would be employed unless and until they had taken an exami- 
nation and had been graded. 

Nevertheless, thousands of people went into the valley to seek 
employment. | 

You made mention in the beginning that you thought the employ- 
ment offices probably, both Federal and State, might serve a better 
purpose in this picture than they probably have in the past; is that 
correct ? 

Mr. Jacoby. I am inclined to think so. 

Mr. Parsons. That is what you meant in answer to my question 
with respect to the fact that information concerning work oppor- 
tunities or the lack of work opportunities should be more widely dis- 
seminated among the public ? 

Mr. Jacoby, Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. Is that correct? 

Mr. Jacoby. Yes. 

EFFECT OF MIGRATION AND RELIEF LOAD 

Mr. Parsons. In what way do you think the prevailing level of 
relief itself affects migration? What has been the picture here, for 
instance, in Illinois with reference to the generosity of the city of 
Chicago and State of Illinois in connection with the relief picture, in 
inviting migration to Illinois? 

Mr. Jacoby. Well, there have been a great many statements made 
that a tremendous number of people have come into Illinois because 
we pay around $60 a month for a four-person family with no in- 
come, whereas the same family perhaps gets $5 or $10 in Mississippi, 
Arkansas, or some other State. 



g2g INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

* However, our studies do not bear out that belief. In the fall of 
1939 the Relief Commission made a careful survey of the resident 
status of about 150,000 cases in the State. We found that only 6,000 
cases out of 150,000, or about 4 percent, had resided less than 3 years 
in the community where thev were found, and less than 2,000 families, 
or about liA percent of all of our relief load, had resided m the 
State le,ss than 3 years, which to me were very surprisingly low 

jBgaires. ,. , i p .• ^ 

In other Avords, they tend to indicate that the fraction of our case 

load that has come in recently is very, very small. -wo 

Mr. Parsons. That was before the settlement time was raised to 6 

years? 

^Ir. Jacoby. That was just at about the same time. 

Mr Parsons. But this sun^ey was taken upon those that had been 
on relief, probably, for several years, or at least for a year or more^ 

Mr. Jacoby. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. That was all at that time ? 

Mr. Jacoby. Yes. . 

Mr. Parsons. That was taken before there was any change m the 

settlement law? 

Mr. Jacoby. Yes. 

Mr Parsons. You do not think that more relief here than there 
may be in surrounding States, or in other States, has invited any 
appreciable amount of migrants to the State ? 

Mr Jacoby I think it has been one factor that has accounted lor 
some cases, but I think the importance of the factor has been gi-eatly 
overestimated in public opinion. Our studies seem to bear that 

idea out. • • /» j.- 

Mr Parsons. In that study, did you try to ascertain information 
to show to what States former residents of Illinois have migrated 
after having become destitute? 

Mr Jacoby. We have made an analysis of correspondence which 
comes to the Relief Commission from relief administrators m other 
States, and that is forwarded to relief administrators m other States. 
That correspondence has to do mainlv with Illinois residents who 
leave the State and who are now found in Los Angeles, New York, 
and other centers, in destitute condition. If we can regard the vol- 
ume of correspondence as being indicative of the places where I inois 
residents are now found, it would seem that the majority ot Illinois 
people who are now destitute and have gone to other States are found 
in California first. New York second, and in the other States border- 
ing on Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky and Wisconsin. Most ot 
the people appear to have gone to the larger cities m those States. 

This does not mean a movement from Illinois to farms or rural 
areas but a movement from Illinois into larger cities, Los Angeles 
and New York City, notably. Of course, we do not have the other 
side of the picture as to just where the people come from who are 
now in Illinois in a destitute condition. . 

Mr. Parsons. That is the point. No doubt there is an appreciable 
number. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 827 

Mr. Jacobt. We think so. 

Mr. Parsons. INIuch larger tlum those who have left Illinois ? 

Mr. Jacx)by. Yes. 

RELIEF administration IN ILLINOIS 

Mr. Parsons. I think the committee here, Mr. Jacoby, might be 
interested in your explaining briefly how our relief problem is 
handled in Illinois, how it is financed", and how it is administered — 
the rates and things of that nature. 

Mr. Jacoby. Well, we have a joint State and local method of dealing 
with the relief problems in this State. First, with regard to admin- 
istration, the direct responsibility for administering relief is in the 
hands of local authorities, some 1,455 different local governmental units 
including the city of Chicago and the IT counties which are under 
commission form of organization, and the rest of them are townships. 

They have the responsibility for actually disbursing relief. They 
are supervised by the State commission, w^iich, according to the law, 
is required to make regulations as to how relief shall be disbursed. 

Unfortunately, the activities of the commission in supervision have 
been pretty strictly limited by the appropriation under which we 
operate. We get $100,000 a year to supervise administration in all 
of these 1,455 units. We have done the best we can with the funds 
that are available. We have prescribed accounting standards. We 
insist that the local overseer of the poor, while he sets up his own 
standards on the ground, apply them uniformly. 

As to financing, any local authority, either township or county, that 
wants to get State funds must qualify by making a 30-cent levy per 
$100 of property valuation. Any local authority levying less than 
that amount does not qualify for aid. Out of the 1,455 units which 
might conceivably qualify, only 550, or 3G percent of them, actually 
do qualify and get aid. The others have such low case loads that they 
can get along without State funds. The State then grants money in 
proportion to the needs of these localities after they have spent their 
local money. 

In the year 1939, just to give you some idea of the proportion, there 
were spent $67,000,000 on relief 'in Illinois. Of that $67,000,000 spent, 
about $18,500,000, or 27 percent, came from the local governments and 
this 30-cent property tax. The other 73 percent came from State 
funds. So you see, the State foots about three-quarters of the bill. 

Mr. Parsons. The State raises its money by a sales tax? 

Mr. Jacoby. That is what it boils down' to, principally; principally 
the sales tax. 

Mr. Parsons. Substantially, wdiere we have a 3 percent sales tax 
in the State, approximately 1 cent, or one-third of that levy, goes to 
relief, for relief purposes? 

Mr. Jacoby. One-third goes directly to relief. Congressman Parsons. 
The rest of it goes into the general revenue fund, but the law says 
that there shall be appropriated money for relief out of the general 
revenue fund again. So you see, in practice, relief gets more than 
1 cent. It just goes through a different route to get to relief. 



§2g INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. Parsons. Do you think yon are operating to best efficiency 
with so many local relief aoencies handling the problem, or would it 
be more economical and more satisfactory if it was handled by a cen- 
tral agency, for instance, the State, your State commission? 

Mr. Jacoby. Well, the Illinois Emerjrency Relief Commission has 
recommended in reports to Governor Horner and to the general as- 
sembly repeatedly that relief could be administered more effectively 
by fewer units. Frankly, we cannot adequately and accurately super- 
vise 1,455 different local administrators. "We might and I think we 
would do a much better job if we limited it to, say, 102 counties. 
We have 102 counties in the State. I think it would be much better if 
we dealt with 102 local administrators rather than 14 times that many. 

Mr. Parsons. Of course, in the counties of the State, under what 
we call the commission form of free county commissions, that con- 
stitutes just one unit ? 

Mr. Jacobt. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. It happens that about six or seven of these counties 
are in my congressional district, and of course it is easily controlled 
and administered in the county unit. Do you see any hope that you 
are going to get rid of that problem in the near future? 

Mr. Jacoby. Well, while there is life, there is hope. I do not 
think it is going to be done soon. There are some difficult problems 
that prevent our using the county unit. As you know, we have a 
State constitution that limits the county tax rate to 75 cents. A good 
many of the counties are at or near that limit now without having to 
levy anything for relief, so if you transferred the burden of the 
financing to the county, that tax rate limit would operate to prevent 
them from getting enough funds in many cases. That is an obstacle 
that wouM have to be overcome. 

]\Ir. Parsons. Before 1932, under Governor Emmerson's adminis- 
tration, relief was set up, I believe, in February 1932? 

Mr. Jacoby. Under the State commission. 

Mr. Parsons. That commission has been in existence and life has 
been extended to it ever since that time? 

Mr. Jacoby. May I interrupt, Congressman ? 

Mr. Parsons. Yes. 

Mr. Jacoby. To complete the story, up to 1932 relief in Illinois, 
as in most other States, was a local function wholly. The State had 
nothing to do with it either financially or administratively. 

Mr. Parsons. It was handled purely by the local overseers. 

Mr. Jacoby. It was handled purely by the local overseer of the poor. 
He was the local officer who did the job. Then in 1932, with increas- 
ing unemployment, the State commission was created. It took the 
whole thing over, with Federal funds. The State commission actu- 
ally administered relief and financed it nearly 100 percent until 1936. 
Then the legislature returned the function of administration back to 
the local authorities again and merely left the commission as a super- 
vising agency to allocate these State funds. 

Mr. Parsons. Did you have an opportunity to make any observa- 
tions just prior to February 1932 and during the 2 years following 
that — we know you were not connected with the commission at that 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 829 

time, but did you have an opportunity to make any observations 
regarding the situation prior to the creation of this commission ? Was 
there a lot of suffering in the State and in the city ? 

Mr. Jacoby. There was. I know that of my own knowledge. I 
was a resident of Chicago at the time. I think the act creating the 
commission in 1932 was eminently desirable and necessary. 

Mr. Pajrsons. Now you say you have ^o many different local 
agencies ; are there varying rates of relief at various local units, town- 
ships, and counties? 

Mr. Jacoby. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. For instance, you have perhaps a dozen units in one 
county. 

Mr. Jacoby. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. Do they give the same amount of relief per person 
per capita in that county 'i 

Mr. Jacoby. No, sir. 

Mr. Parsons. Will you elaborate on that just a little, Mr. Jacoby? 

Mr. Jacoby. Yes. There is a great divergence both as between 
townships within a county and as between townships in different parts 
of the State. I have appended to the statement I submitted some 
figures showing relief granted to a four-person family with no in- 
come in 22 of the largest relief units of the State. 

Mr. Parsons. Yes. 

Mr. Jacoby. It will be noticed there that the monthly relief grant, 
or, to be more accurate, the value of monthly relief can vary from 
about $17.50 for this family in one of the southern townships to 
something over $60 in Downers Grove, DuPage County, which is 
right to the west of Chicago. That gives you some idea of the 
variation. 

Mr. Parsons. Has that tended to make migration within the State 
from county to county where they pay higher rates of relief ? Have 
you made any studies on that? 

Mr. Jacoby. That is very hard to say. Frankly, I do not think 
we can answer the question definitely, although this review of our 
case load that we made in the fall of 1939 that I mentioned pre- 
viously indicated that less than one-half of 1 percent of the cases on 
relief in the fall of 1939 had resided in the locality in which they 
were found for less than a year. That is, a very small fraction of 
them had not been in the community for at least a year. 

Mr. Parsons. You have studied this problem a great deal. You 
know the purpose of this committee is to get the facts. We do not 
have the answer yet. There is not just one single answer to this 
problem. 

Mr. Jacoby. I appreciate that. 

Mr. Parsons. It is a large problem, and perhaps requires a large 
number of solutions to different parts of the problem. 

recom mendations 

You have given a great deal of study and attention to it. Wliat 
recommendation would you make, if the Federal Government stepped 



330 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

into the picture? Have you any helpful suggestions you can offer 
to the committee in outlining legislation to aid and assist in this 
problem, and to help to cure it? 

Mr. Jacobt. AVell, from what I know of it, Congressman Parsons, 
I think that legislation along two lines would be desirable. One of 
them I have already mentioned. That is some program that would 
make the Federal Employment Agency more effective in advising 
people about facts concerning employment opportunities so that, for 
instance, if a thousand jobs picking fruit should open up in one of 
the Southern States, there will not be an influx of thousands of 
people there, each acting because he does not know other people are 
moving there. 

I think the Social Security Board, which is now supervising the 
Federal Employment Service, could develop its functions and be 
much more effective to make migration more intelligent and better 
informed. That is one line. 

The other program that seems to me to be desirable would be for 
the Federal Government to pay for relief extended to people that 
do not have resident status. The reason for making that suggestion 
is not simply to unload the State of Illinois' financial Inirden. We 
have a heavy financial burden which, I think, is best illustrated by 
the fact that the State has never been able to put up 100 percent of 
the net relief needs. We have not been able to pay that for at 
least 3 years, and perhaps never will be able to, to my knowledge. 

We have a financial burden, and all of us would be anxious to shift 
it. However, I am not making the suggestion merely for that reason. 
It seems to me the main reason that would support that would be 
that if the Federal Government had paid relief to destitute people, 
it would cause the States to modify these unduly restrictive residence 
requirements that are slowly being built up as barriers to migration. 
I might suggest in that connection that perhaps the grant made by 
the Federal Government to pay for relief might be made conditional 
on the State revising its residence law to some desirable limit. You 
suggest a year. I am inclined to think you are probably right on 
that. Perhaps they should be made uniformly 1 year. 

Mr. Parsons. You would not abandon them altogether? 

Mr. Jacobt. I think not. I think that is probably the most effec- 
tive way of working toward reasonable resident requirements, uni- 
form resident requirements. 

Mr. Parsons. That is the only way, of course, Congress could 
touch the matter. 

Mr. Jacobt. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. That would be to make a condition for obtaining a 
grant-in-aid by the States. 

Mr. Jacobt. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. May I ask a question right there ? 

Mr. Parsons. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Would you include, in that, some attention given to 
the basic imderlying causes of mass exodus from a given area? 

Mr. Jacobt. I am not sure I just understand your question. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 831 

Mr. Curtis. For instance, I come from a droujilit area, the dust 
bowl of Nebraska. We have lost a great many people there. 

Mr. Jacoby. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Those people who have gone away have not gone 
away of their own free wall. They wonld rather stay there where 
they have spent their lives, and where their families and friends are. 
Wlien they leave, they become California's problem, or Chicago's 
problem, or some other city's problem. It occnrs to me that rather 
than bigger and better migrant camps at their destination alone, we 
shonld also give some attention to what could be done to relieve the 
condition making their migration necessarv. Do you agree with 
that ? 

Mr. Jacoby. That is, to have the Federal Government pay for 
relief extended to those people where they are, before they have 
migrated? 

Mr. Curtis. Not necessarily on a relief basis. What I had in mind 
was having the Department of Agriculture, Bureau of Reclamation 
and other agencies direct their attention to bettering their economic 
condition to make them self-sustaining where they are. 

Mr. Jacoby. Well, my general feeling about that, sir, would be this : 
That it is a bad thing to interfere too much with people's desire to 
move. The first step in an intelligent policy, it seems to me, is to 
inform them as to where they can move most expeditiously and 
where they are most likely to get a job. Then, I think you ought 
to leave them free to move, and if they cannot find self-support, 
make arrangements to maintain them. 

A man should not be deterred from moving by fear that he will 
not be able to get relief in case he is unfortunate elsewhere. I am 
afraid that if we went too far to settle peonle and make their condi- 
tions satisfactory in an area which, for one reason or another cannot 
support a large population, you may start to freeze the population 
just as those residence laws are starting to freeze the population. 

Mr. Curtis. I agree with you that we should not do it by com- 
pulsion, or even make financial inducements for people to stay where 
the economics of the territory cannot support them, 

Mr. Jacoby. Yes. 

]Mr. Curtis. Perhaps I should be a little more specific. If a cer- 
tain area is losing its farm population because they cannot make a 
go of it and they are drifting away, and you find that with Federal 
assistance, say, with fertilizer over a period of 5 or 10 years, you 
could improve that soil so people could be self-sustaining-^not re- 
quiring them to stay there, but creating a situation in which they 
would want to stay there — clo you feel we should give some attention 
to that sort of thing? 

Mr. Jacoby. That particular phase of it, I think, is perfectly satis- 
factory. What you are doing in effect is not telling a man, "We are 
going "to give you what is, in effect, a Government subsidy to stay 
here," but instead, telling him, "We are willing to help you far more 
effectively by making your tenure on this land more secure by apply- 
ing better knowdedire and skill to the farming of it." 

Mr. Curtis. Yes. 



832 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. Jacoby. That particular phase is perfectly satisfactory. 

iNIr. Curtis. Likewise, that same theory applies to the territory 
from which I come, Nebraska, where there has been extreme drouoht. 
I feel the Congress of the United States must realize that a million 
dollars spent in the State of Nebraska on irrigation is solving a prob- 
lem by preventing for all time those people from moving to Chicago 
or California seeking jobs that do not exist, and eventually, perhaps, 
getting on relief. 

Mr. Jacoby. I think that is highly possible. You would have, I 
think, to examine each project on its merits, and if you can economi- 
cally spend a million dollars to create conditions that will keep people 
there, self-supporting, then it is a wise thing to do it, 

Mr. Cnrns. We just returned from some hearings at Montgomery, 
Ala. AYe found that a large percentage of the homeless people 
who had to get out and go, within the State or interstate, were forced 
directly off of the soil. They were farmers. I believe you said that 
in 150.000 cases examined, about 4 percent, or 6,000, of those people 
had not come from that immediate locality? 

Mr. Jacoby. They had less than 3 years' residence in the district 
where they were found. 

Mr. Curtis. They were on relief? 

Mr. Jacoby. They were on relief, 

Mr. Curtis. Was any investigation made as lO that 6,000, as to 
where they had come from? 

]Mr. Jacoby. No, sir. 

]\Ir. Curtis. Were they farmers or city dwellers, unemployed wage 
earners, or do you have any analysis of that? 

]Mr. Jacoby. We do not. I am sorry, but we do not. 

INlr. Curtis. I have no further questions. I emphatically agree 
with the gentlemen that we should place no restraint on migration. 
I think it is a very, very fundamental American right that an indi- 
vidual of any age might go where his hopes and ambitions will carry 
him. 

Mr. Jacoby. I am glad to hear you say that. 

Mr. Curtis. Sometimes he will fool the Government relief agencies 
and make good where no one else can. 

The Chairmax. Mr. Jacoby, I have just a question or two, and then 
we will have finished. 

jNIr. Jacoby. Yes. 

The Chairman. The figures indicate that approximately 4,000,000 
people annually go from State to State; 850,000 have gone to Califor- 
nia during the last 5 years. I take it that along with tlie mayor's 
idea, you can readily appreciate that it is a national problem. 

Mr. Jacoby. That is correct. 

The Chairman. With respect to the people going into California, a 
check was made of them, and they were nearly all American citizens, 
good citizens. We are not concerned with the hobo and perennial 
tramp. However, there is an average of 4,000,000 people who travel 
that "way, and after they get to the State of destination, they are 
homeless and Stateless. Do you not think, Mr. Jacoby, it strikes 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 833 

right at the morale of our people, and do you not think, therefore, 
it is a national problem? 

Mr. Jacoby. Yes; I think definitely that it is. You are right on 

^The Chairman. In other words, if 850,000 people from Ohio moved 
into the State of Illinois on account of an earthquake or something 
else of that kind, the Federal Government would convene, or I think 
Congress would convene, a special session to take care of that ; don t 
jou see? 

Mr, Jacobt. Yes. 

The Chairman. In other words, the Federal Government is not 
going to get along very well if California goes broke and Illinois 
^oes broke. That is not going to help the Federal Government any. 

Mr. Jacoby. Not at all. 

The Chairman. Also, along the line you indicate m there about 
information, the committee's attention has been attracted to that 
proposition. There has been misinformation given by private em- 
ployment agencies who take their money and then send them into a 
State where there is no employment. 

Mr. Jacoby. Most of the evil, it seems to me, is not lack of accurate 
information, but the dissemination of misinformation. 

The Chairman. This committee undoubtedly will have jurisdiction 
over that question, and can recommend legislation to take care of pri- 
vate employment agencies who take their money and send them across 
State lines. We are in that picture all right. As has been pointed 
out here, there is no single answer. As you continue to study this 
problem, it becomes gigantic in its scope. 

Mr. Jacoby. Yes. 

The Chairman. You have the health problem and the education 
problem. There are approximately 300,000 on the road every day, 
camping along the ditches, in misery, just living the best way they can. 
As you have pointed out, we have been very careful to fix statutes on 
every commodity that moves from one State to another, but we have 
not fixed any statutes yet for the human commodity. 

Mr. Jacoby. No. 

The Chairman. Wliich is the most important. 

Mr. Jacoby. That is right. It is the most important. 

The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Jacoby, very much, for a very en- 
lightening statement. You have made a very fine contribution to 
our record. The statement whicli you have submitted will be received 
and the balance of it will be printed. 

Thank you very much, Mr. Jacoby. 

(Whereupon, Mr. Jacoby was excused.) 

Statement by Neil H. Jacoby, Chairman, Illinois Emergency Relief Commis- 
sion, Chicago, III/ 



basic considerations in INTE21STATE MIGRATION 

The migration of destitute citizens appears not any less desirable than migra- 
tion of self-supporting citizens, providing the former are governed by the same 

^ The first QV2 pages were read into the record, see pp. 820-824. 



834 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

motives as the latter and act on the best available information. Whether the 
reasons differ from those of independent citizens is difficult to ascertain. To the 
extent that the two groups have similar qualifications and opportunities for 
employment, it may be assumed that their dominant reason is the seai'ch for 
employment. To the extent that employment opportunities for the destitute are 
less than those of the independent migrants, other reasons vpill play a greater 
role. I am inclined to believe that such is the case. 

Since the availability of higher relief grants elsewhere and the absence of 
residence requirements are factors which encourage migration, even if they are 
not preponderant causes, is it desirable to eliminate these factors? If a certain 
community desires to maintain high relief standards for its own residents, should 
it maintain them also for those who move into that community? Or should it 
limit relief to those of its residents who have been associated with the community 
for several years? The answer depends largely on what is considered to be the 
function of relief. If relief is regarded merely as a claim upon the community 
by citizens, now destitute, who have lived in that community, and have paid taxes 
thereto, it might seem legitimate to refuse relief to outsiders. But this attitude 
will easily become a boomerang. Other communities might be expected to do 
likewise. The inevitable result of this policy would be to deter migrants from 
settling in the community and to deter I'esidents of the community from migrating 
elsewhere. Both types of migration might be very desirable. To prevent them 
from occurring might result in grave economic loss to the Nation. Thus one 
cannot escape the conclusion that relief has a function other than the support 
of residents of long standing. Highly restrictive residence laws damage the State 
and the Nation. 

To pass to the other extreme, one may ask whether a community should stand 
ready to provide relief to all who come within its fold and should abolish all 
deterring factors such as residence requirements. So long as migration is con- 
sidered desirable, this would seem to be a logical policy. Yet, here the vexing 
problem of variation in relief standards enters into the discussion. Not only 
the availability of relief, but also the level of relief grants serves as an induce- 
ment or as a deterrent to migration. One must face the further question of the 
desirability of equalizing relief standards throughout the country. 

A great many factors enter into the determination of the appropriate standard 
of relief for a community. Assuming that high relief standards encourage, and 
that low relief standards deter, migration into a community, from a strictly 
economic point of view an appropriate relief standard would seem to be that 
which encouraged sufficient migration to provide the necessary labor supply for 
a community ; that is, should a shortage of labor exist, relief standards might 
be increased to encourage migration into the community. When an oversupply 
of labor exists, and the relief rolls become crowded, relief standards might be 
lowered to encourage migration elsewhere. Communities do, in fact, partly 
compete for labor through relief standards, inasmuch as the relief standard is 
one of the services offered by the community and therefore a factor considered 
by the migrant. 

It should again be emphasized that relative relief standards are only one of 
the factors affecting decisions to migrate and that other factors may well be 
more important. This statement has been concerned only with the relationship 
of relief to migration. Furthermore. I have laid emphasis on the economic 
aspects of relief and migration. It may very well be that other factors weigh 
more heavily in decisions of many migrants than do the economic aspects. 
People often move merely because of boredom, desire for change, to make new 
acquaintances, etc. 

One other aspect of the migrancy problem deserves consideration, and that 
is the method of financing relief to destitute migrants. Under a federal govern- 
ment, such as our own, this presents a difficult problem. It requires a con- 
sideration of the fiscal structure of the Federal, State, and local governmental 
units, a subject much too broad to enter into here. I wish to point to only 
two of the major fiscal problems involved. In the first place, coordination of 
our Federal, S*^ate. and local fiscal structures is necessary, not only to provide 
for equitable sharing of tax burdens but also to provide sufficient funds to 
governmental units to carry on all their functions efficiently, including that 
of relief to destitute citizens. To name all of the obstacles to such coordination 
would, of course, require a review of the whole subject of public finance. In 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION §35 

the second place, the fiuancial resources of one level of goverunient can and 
should on occasion be transferred to another level of government where such 
policy is desirable. The two common devices to accomplish this end, as you 
are aware, are grants-in-aid and tax sharing. 

In the light of the existing fiscal structure of Federal, State, and local gov- 
ernments, and the present divisioy of responsibilities for performing govern- 
mental functions, what may be .said concerning the financing of relief given 
to destitute migrants V Since Federal-State relations are the subject of this 
hearing, I shall omit reference to State-local relations. As between the Federal 
and State Governments it seems clear that most of the States are in no position 
to finance their present relief loads through equitable personal taxes. Many have 
been forced, through constitutional or practical limitations, to adopt sales taxes 
which lay a heavy burden on the poor. This is true of Illinois. The Federal 
Government must take the lead in providing better coordination of the national 
fiscal structure, and with its greater taxing powers and credit resources provide 
adequate funds from equitable revenue sources for the efficient performance 
of governmental functions. 

As long as the Spates are hard pressed to meet their present burden of 
relief — and this can certainly be demonstrated for Illinois — it seems futile to 
expect them to abolish residence requirements, however desirable this may be 
on theoretical grounds. They may be expected to take a narrower view of the 
function of relief, and endeavor to confine it to their own citizens in an attempt 
to reduce the financial burden. But this obstructs desirable migration. As a 
first and immediate step in dealing with the problem, it, therefore, appears 
desirable that the Federal Government should assume the financial respon- 
sibility of extending relief to destitute migrants. By relieving the State of 
this financial burden the step would eliminate the hindrance to migration caused 
by unduly restrictive S.'ate residence requirements. With the Federal Gov- 
ernment bearing the burden of relief to destitute migrants, the States might 
be more willing to eliminate or modify residence requirements, since this action 
would result in no added cost to them. 

One precaution may be noted in the assumption of the burden of relief to 
migrants by the Federal Government. The Fedei-al Government should not 
attempt to establish special standards of relief for migrants, but should gen- 
erally require that these standards be identical with those for local citizens 
receiving relief. This would eliminate the possibility of a dual set of standards 
existing in the State,^ and influence on the part of the Federal Government in 
the establishment of local relief standards. The latter should not be attempted 
directly, in my opinion. Final determination of relief standards should be 
a local responsibility. 

Variations in relief standards would, then, serve as the only aspect of relief 
encouraging or deterring migration. This may not appear to be a satisfactory 
condition, but I am imable to suggest any change that would not be worse. 

in. SOME FACTS CONCBIiNING INTE3tSTATE MIGRATION OF DESTITUTE CITIZENS 
PERTAINING TO ILLINOIS 

So far I have endeavored to state some fundamental considerations in the rela- 
tionship between relief and migration, only because these aspects of the problem 
are often disregarded. I now wish to lay before this committee certain facts 
pertaining to this subject and relating to our experience in Illinois. First, I 
wish to review briefly the pertinent provisions of Illinois relief laws, and then 
pi-esent some factual material contained in studies of this subject in Illinois. 

(0 Illinois laws pertaining to destitute migrants. — Prior to 1932, Illinois 
statutes provided that any person having residence in the State could I'eceive 
relief from any local relief unit, but the relief thus granted was to be charged 
to the local governmental unit in which that person had residence one year 
prior to his application. Residence was defined in the law, as "the actual resi- 
dence of the party, or the place where he was employed, or in case he was in 



1 The State of Mas.saohusetts appears to have had some very unsatisfactory experience 
with a dual .set of standards of this nature. Cf. Commonwealth of Massachusetts. House 
Doc. No. 1702 (January 24, 1938), p. 140. 



836 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



no employment, then it shall be considered and held to be the place where he 
made it his home." ^ This definition was in the laws of Illinois since 1841 and 
was interpreted by the supreme court of the State in numerous decisions. In 
some local units these provisions were misunderstood by local overseers of the 
poor, or they were not adhered to for other reasons, but they provided a fairly 
definite method of dealing with nonresidents. 

In February of 1932 the Illinois Emergency Relief Commission was created 
and took over from local governments the task of administering aid to the 
increasing unemployment-relief load. From August 1933 until September 1935 
nonresidents and interstate transients in Illinois were cared for by a Federal 
transient program operated by the Illinois Emergency Relief Commission under 
the Federal Emergency Relief Appropriation Act of May 1933. Biennial re- 
ports of the commission contain adequate descriptions of the activities of this 
unit.* Federal grants for transients were terminated in November 1935 and 
the Illinois Service Bureau for Transients was then closed. The Federal Emer- 
gency Relief Administrator, however, authorized the Illinois Emergency Relief 
Commission to extend relief to transients under its regular program out of 
remaining balances of Federal funds. 

When the W. P. A. got under way in 1935, most of the transient camps that 
had been organized by the Illinois Emergency Relief Commission were trans- 
ferred to the W. P. A. and were operated as work projects. A number of 
transients were transferred to regular W. P. A. projects. During the spring 
•of 1937 most of the Illinois Emergency Relief Commission transient camps were 
closed, and the W. P. A. discontinued the transient camps and transferred the 
transients to other W. P. A. projects. 

On July 1, 1936, the responsibility for the administration of relief was trans- 
ferred by the General Assembly of Illinois from the Illinois Emergency Relief 
Commission to 1,454 (now 1,455) townships and counties. The Illinois Emergency 
Relief Commission retained the responsibility of allocating State relief funds, of 
certifying persons for Federal services, and of supervising local relief administra- 
tion. Nonresident recipients of unemployment relief once more came under the 
residence provisions of the Illinois pauper law mentioned above. 

In July 1939 the Illinois pauper law was amended, and the pi'ovisions with 
respect to nonresidents were materially changed. Thereafter, relief was to be 
denied any person who did not reside in the local unit where application was 
made "for a period of 3 years immediately preceding" his application for relief. 
If the applicant did reside in some other local unit ih the State for this 3-year 
period, the latter unit in which the applicant did have residence was required 
to remove the applicant and to pay for relief extended. The definition of "resi- 
dence" was changed to mean the unit "in which a person has made his permanent 
home for a continuous period of 3 years, preceding his becoming chargeable as a 
pauper." Local governments were specifically permitted to use relief funds to 
pay the expense of transporting paupers to the place of their residence in other 
States. 

The attorney general of Illinois has rendered an opinion in which he recognized 
that this amendatory act was a wide departure from the previous "policy of the 
State of Illinois to diminish as much as possible the number of unsettled paupers 
and to assign to as many as possible a legal settlement, because to do so is con- 
ducive to the good order of society." * He held that "no one has a legal settlement 
liable for his support as a pauper except he who has resided continuously in one 
unit for 3 years or more, the only exception being one who, after having resided 
in such unit continuously for 3 years or more, removes to another unit and there- 
upon immediately makes application for relief under the pauper act." He also 
held, however, that this amendatoi-y act is not retroactive and does not affect those 
who were already on relief at the time the act went into effect on July 26. 1939. 

(ii) Residence status of persons on Illinois relief rolls in 19S9. — While there are 
no accurate data available on the number of persons in the State who have been 

2 Smith Hurd Revised Statutes of Illinois, ch. 107. sec. 17. 

s See Illinois Emergency Relief Commission. First Annual Report for the Year Ending 
Fehru.nrv 5, Ifl.S.S ; Seconal Annual Report Covering the Period February 6, 1933, Through 
June 30." 1034: Biennial Report, Covering the Period .Tnly 1, 1934, Through June 30. 1936. 

* Opinion of the Attorney General of Illinois to the Illinois Emergency Relief Commission, 
August 15, 1939. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 837 

affected by the recent lUiuois residence law, studies conducted by the Illinois 
Emergency Relief Commission do indicate the residence status of those who were 
on the relief rolls at about the time this law went into effect. 

A review of all the cases on relief in Illinois in the fall of 1939 revealed that 
almost 6,000 families and individuals, or about 4 percent of all those on the relief 
rolls at the time, had continuous residence for less than 3 years in the local unit in 
which they received relief. About 20 percent of the.se, or about 1,000 cases, were 
Negroes. Cook County had only 35 percent of the cases with less than 3 years' 
residence in the local unit in which they were receiving relief, and almost 80 
percent in this Cook County group were Negroes. One-third of the cases with less 
than 8 years' continuous residence in the local unit in which they were receiving 
relief, or about 2,000 families and individuals, had less than 3 years' continuous 
residence in the State. These 2,000 families and individuals would definitely not 
be eligible for relief in Illinois had they applied after the new act went into effect. 
The remaining 4,000 cases, lacking 3 years of continuous residence in the local 
units in which they were receiving relief, would also be ineligible for relief under 
the new law if they applied after the act went into effect, unless they could show 
that they had resided continuously in some other local unit for 3 years immediately 
preceding their application for relief. Table 1 summarizes the facts. 

It is difficult to determine statistically what has been or will be the effect 
of the recent Illinois 3-year residence law. It can certainly be said that many 
cases eligible under the former law would no longer be eligible under the present . 
law. It is a reasonable assumption that the new law is resulting in the migra- 
tion of some persons to other States without full knowledge of the economic 
desirability of such migration ; that it is preventing many persons who are truly 
in need from receiving public relief; and that it is taxing the resources of 
private charities. That the new residence law is unsatisfactory cannot be 
denied. In my opinion, the test of eligibility for relief which it sets up is 
arbitrary and much too restrictive. It even deprives persons who have resided 
in Illinois for many years of the benefits of public aid. 

{Hi) Analysis of interrelief agency correspondence forwarded hy the Illinois 
Emergency Relief Commission. — One source of information in the volume of 
migration of destitute citizens Is correspondence among public agencies con- 
cerning nonresidence. The Uniform Transfer of Dependents Act, or the trans- 
portation agreement, as it is commonly known, initiated by the American Public 
Welfare Association in 1931, aimed to achieve uniformity of treatment of desti- 
tute migrants. Other witneses will, no doubt, discuss this agreement at length. 
The States signatory to this agreement bound themselves to make a reasonable 
effort, before transporting a migrant out of a State, to secure accurate and 
trustworthy evidence that he would benefit by a transfer and that he would be 
able to maintain himself or would be properly chargeable to a relief agency be- 
cause of legal residence. The Illinois Emergency Relief Commission has func- 
tioned as the agency through which much correspondence has been forwarded 
from other States to local Illinois administrators. The correspondence of local 
Illinois administrators concerning destitute migrants from other States and now 
in' Illinois does not pass through the hands of the Illinois Emergency Relief 
Commission, so that it is unfortunately impossible to compare the data on 
destitute migrants from other States into Illinois with that on destitute Illinois 
migrants who have gone to other States. Also, this correspondence fails to 
include inquiries which went directly to other public agencies eligible to serve 
as correspondents. 

A study of this interagency correspondence forwarded by the Illinois Emer- 
gency Relief Commission during 1938 does reveal some pertinent facts. During 
the year 1938 almost 2,800 inquiries were received. Table 2 accompanying shows 
the cities and States from which the major number of inquiries were received. 
More than three-fourths of these inquiries came from outside the State of 
Illinois. More inquiries came from California than from any other State, and 
the city of Los Angeles agencies made half of the California inquiries. New York 
ranked second to California, and most of the New York State inquiries came from 
New York City. Most of the other inquiries came from States bordering upon 
Illinois, Michigan, Iowa, Missouri, Wisconsin, and Indiana. 

The purposes of inquiry are listed in table 3. While a majority of these 
inquiries did not concern requests for authorization to return to Illinois, the 



I 



338 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

other purposes of inquiry may subsequently have led to requests for such author- 
ization. In any case, requests for autliorization to return destitute persons to 
Illinois comprised more than one-third of all requests. California made the 
largest number of requests for authorization to return. The number of inquiries 
made by each State and the purposes of these inquiries are listed in table 4. 

These data indicate that destitute Illinois citizens are found in large num- 
bers in California, New York, and the States bordering on Illinois, and that 
most of them have migrated to the largest cities in these States. Unfortunately, 
this information in movement out of Illinois cannot be matched by data showing 
the status of destitute migrants from other States who have come into Illinois. 
Some information on the latter subject will be presented before this committee 
by representatives of the city of Chicago. 

(iv) Financial arrangements governing relief in Illinois. — Arrangements for 
financing general relief in Illinois have a bearing upon the problem of migration 
by destitute citizens. Relief is jointly financed by the State and local govern- 
mental units in Illinois. Local units administering relief are required to make a 
30-cent levy per $100 of assessed valuation of property for relief purposes in order 
to establish eligibility to receive State relief funds. This 30-cent levy is the legal 
maximum which the local units can raise for relief purposes. All other funds are 
derived from State grants. During the calendar year 1939 a total of $67,022,222 
of obligations were incurred against public funds for relief in Illinois. Of this 
amount, $18,589,572, or 27.4 percent, was committed against local funds, and nearly 
all of the remaining $48,388,592, or 72.2 percent, against State funds. In the case 
of the city of Chicago the fraction of total obligations incurred out of State funds 
was even greater than for the State at large. Total obligations amounted to 
$37,498,647, of which State funds supplied $32,717,353, or 87.2 percent, and city 
funds supplied $4,781,294, or 12.8 percent. Only about 36 percent of the 1,455 local 
relief-administering units in Illinois actually qualified to receive State relief 
funds, the majority having small case loads. The financial burden of relief 
granted to residents as well as nonresidents therefore falls mainly on the State 
governments. 

It has sometimes been claimed that local officials have an inducement to be 
lenient with nonresidents and to give them relief, since costs would be paid mainly 
out of the State appropriation for relief. There is little or no evidence to substan- 
tiate this claim. In the review of the relief cases in Illinois, referred to above, 
only 724 families and individuals, or only one-half of 1 percent of a total of almost 
150,000 cases, had less than 1 year of continuous residence in the local unit in 
which they received relief. To what extent the presence of this number of non- 
residents indicated leniency and to what extent oversight or merely error in 
reporting is hard to determine. In any event the figures do not reveal any 
tendency toward leniency on the part of local relief officials, even if an inducement 
can be said to exist. 

(v). Illinois Emergency Relief Commission study in Alexander County, III. — A 
recent study conducted by the Illinois Emergency Relief Commission in Alex- 
ander County, at the southern extremity of Illinois, is of interest. Owing to .a 
disruption of the relief administration of that county. State funds were withheld 
from it, and relief therein was virtually discontinued from February 1940 until 
April 1940. It was reported by certain observers that from 30 to 50 percent of 
those who had previously been on Alexander County relief roll emigrated from 
the county upon the discontinuation of relief, principally to the neighboring States 
of Kentucky, Ohio, and Missouri. In May 1940 the Illinois Emergency Relief Com- 
mission made a careful investigation of relief needs in the county. Between 
January 1940 and May 1940 the nimiber of families and individuals receiving relief 
in Alexander County was reduced from 762 to 548, or by almost 30 percent. More 
than a third of the remaining cases were found by the Illinois Emergency Relief 
Commission to be ineligible for relief, so that only 353, or 46 percent of those who 
were on the rolls when relief was terminated, remained eligible for relief. The 
State-wide review of relief rolls (referred to previously) indicated that only 5 
cases out of a total of 790 had less than 1 year of residence in Alexander County 
and only 28 cases had less than 3 years of continuous residence. 

While the rumors of large emigration of relief recipients to other counties or 
States could not be verified, nevertheless it is difficult to account for the many 
relief cases which apparently disappeared from Alexander County rolls when 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 839 

relief was discontinued. Assuming that some relief cases did migrate out of the 
county, presumably they moved with the hope of bettering their economic status. 
Employment opportunities elsewhere, real or fictitious, undoubtedly attracted 
some of them. The discontinuance of relief in Alexander County provided a 
further inducement. 

Some indication of the level of monthly relief allowances in Alexander County 
in comparison with allowances in other Illinois localities is given in table 5. 
This table shows tlie monthly value of relief authorized for a 4-person 
family with no outside income during May 1940 in 22 selected Illinois townships 
and counties." 

Tlie range of monthly allowances in May 1940 for the same family unit was 
from $17.51 in Scott County to $60.09 iu Downers Grove, Du Page County. 
These figures are presented graphically on a map of Illinois, and show that allow- 
ances generally increase as one moves from the southern to tlie northern part 
of the State. The Alexander County allowance was second to the lowest in 
the group. Did the existence of higher allowances elsewhere provide an induce- 
ment to migration? If relief persons were aware of the recent 3-year residence 
law, and knew that they would not be eligible to receive relief elsewhere in the 
State, the higher relief standards in other areas could not have provided such 
an inducement. But they may not have been aware of the new law, or they 
may have expected lenient treatment from relief administrators elsewhere. All 
these are possibilities. 

The level of relief allowances in neighboring States is also pertinent, but 
unfortunately data on a basis similar to that presented for Illinois are not 
available to us. 

(in) Policies adopted ty Federal relief agencies toward nonresidents. — It is 
well to compare the policies adopted by Federal relief agencies in dealing with 
nonresidents with those of the State of Illinois. Generally, it may be said that 
the major Federal relief agencies in Illinois — the W. P. A., the C. C. C, the 
N. Y. A., and the Surplus Marketing Administration (formerly the Federal 
Surplus Commodities Corix>ration) — have in general welcomed the nonresident 
in need of assistance on the .same basis as the resident. All of these organiza- 
tions have attempted to insure against discriminatory treatment of nonresidents 
by special provisions. 

The W. P. A. employs persons certified by the Illinois Emergency Relief Com- 
mission as in need and otlierwise eligible. In the agreement between these organ- 
izations as to certification the following statement is found : "Persons otherwise 
eligible shall not be refused certification because legal settlement or residence has 
not been established within the State or a political subdivision thereof ; the 
certifying agency shall be responsible for the certification of such persons. 
However, persons who move into the State or political subdivision thereof for 
the purpose of obtaining employment on W. P. A. projects shall not be eligible 
for certification." " 

Thus persons who are not eligible for relief because they cannot meet the 
residence requirements of the State law are still eligible for W. P. A. employment. 
Nonresidents employed by the W. P. A. can gain residence by relief by being 
employed on a local unit for 3 yeai"s. Furthermore, the fact that W. P. A. 
wage rates are higher in most cases than relief allowances for similar families 
means that nonresidents assigned to the W. P. A. receive better ti'eatment than 
residents who remain on the relief rolls. 

Similar provisions are made by other Federal relief programs. Nonresidents 
otherwise eligible are certified for C. C. C, N. Y. A., and to receive commodities 
distributed by the Surplus Marketing Administration. The C. C. C. has pro- 
vided for the assignment of nonresident young men to camps located in the 
States of their residence, but in practice this has been difiicult to adhere to 
strictly, and nonresidents have been assigned on the same basis as residents. 



^ It is necessary to point out that these allowances are provided regularly. They do not 
Include additional amounts provided for particular purposes as needed, such as medical 
and dental care, hospitalization, special diets, medical appliances, clothing (other than 
articles from sewing projects), household supplies, nursing care, clinic or school transpor- 
tation, burial, moving expenses, ice, and adjustments in rental allowances in special circum- 
stances. Not all of these items were available in all the 22 units, since they varied in the 
items provided. 

* Joint agreement between the W. P. A. of Illinois and the Illinois Emergency Relief 
Commission, signed July 15, 1940. 



260370— 40— pt. 3- 



840 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



Federal relief agencies have certainly adopted an attitude toward the non- 
resident wholly different than have State relief agencies. 

(vit) Summary and conclusions. — In order to draw together the major points 
that appear to emerge from the foregoing discussion, I present for the considera- 
tion of this committee the following conclusions : 

1. Interstate migration of destitute as well as self-supporting families and 
individuals is desirable, so long as the migrant acts on full knowledge of relative 
employment opportunities. 

2 Every effort should be made by governmental authorities to make knowledge 
of employment opportunities more readily available, to improve existing sources 
of information, and to prevent the dissemination of untrue or inaccurate infor- 
ms. Although the availability of relief and the level of relief allowances to 
migrants acts as a force in encouraging or discouraging migration, it is impossible 
to say what weight it carries in the decisions of persons to migrate. 

4 It is recommended that, as a first and immediate step, the Federal Govern- 
ment should assume the financial responsibility of relief to destitute migrants. 
By relieving the States and localities of this burden, the Federal Government 
will encourage the States to eliminate or modify residence requirements that 
unduly restrict migration. ,. - . 

5 A study of length of residence of families and individuals on relief in 
Illinois in the fall of 193,9 indicated that 6,000 cases, or only about 4 percent of 
those on relief, had resided less than 3 years in the locality in which they were 
receiving relief. About one-third of these families had resided less than 3 years 
in the State of Illinois. This is a surprisingly small figure. 

6. A study of correspondence passing through the Illinois Emergency Relief 
Commission' from relief administrators outside Illinois to Illinois relief adminis- 
trators indicates that destitute former residents of Illinois are now found chiefly 
in California, New York, and the States bordering on Illinois. Apparently, most 
of these emigrants have gone to the largest cities of these States. 

7. While the State government provides about three-quarters of the funds spent 
on relief in Illinois, there is no evidence of leniency on the part of local relief 
administrators toward nonresident cases. 

8. Monthly relief allowances vary greatly as between local governments in 
Illinois, but "it is impossible to determine whether this has actually operated as a 
stimulus to migration witliin the State. Data on relative relief allowances in 
neighboring States on a comparable basis are not available. 

9^ Public assistance agencies of the Federal Government do not discriminate 
against the nonresident in Illinois, unlike the State and local agencies. 

Table 1. — Number of cases on relief in Illinois with less than 3 years' residence 
in local units in which they received relief by race, hy les.'i than 3 years' 
residence in county, and by less than 3 years' residence in State, fall, 193& 





Less than 3 years' residence in local governmental unit 


County and local 


Total 
cases 


White 
and 
other 


Negro 


Less than 3 years' residence 
in county 


Less than 3 years' residence 
in State 




Total 


White 
and 
other 


Negro 


Total 


White 
and 
other 


Negro 


Total State 


5.771 


4,625 


1,146 


3,333 


2,306 


1,027 


1,926 


991 


935 


Total Cook County 

Down-State 


2,015 
3,756 


1,069 
3,556 


946 
200 


1,431 
1,902 


563 
1,743 


868 
159 


1,263 
663 


429 
562 


834 
101 


Adams County: Quincy_ 
Alexander 


69 

28 


66 
12 


3 

16 


42 
22 


41 
8 


1 
14 


27 
12 


26 

1 


1 
H 


Bond -.. 


13 


13 





4 


4 


















Shoal Creek.- 

All other units 


4 
9 


4 
9 




3 
1 


3 

1 


























Boone: Belvidere. 

Brown 


6 
12 


6 
12 




6 
6 


6 
6 




2 
1 


2 
1 




Bureau 


11 


11 


4 


4 




1 


1 




Hall 


5 
6 


5 


1 
3 


1 
3 










.All other units 


6 






1 


1 











. 















INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



841 



Table 1 —NumUr of cases on relief in lUinois with less than S years' residence 
^T\Ll^!its in\chich they received relief ly race, by ^ff/J^Zfy^r 

residence in county, and by less than S years' residence in ktate, tail', li)6J— 

Continued 



Less than 3 years' residence in local governmental unit 



County and local 


Total 
cases 


White 
and 
other 




Less than 3 years' residence 
in county 


Less than 3 years' residence 
in State 




Negro 


Total 
2 


White 
and 
other 


Negro 


Total 


White 
and Negro 
other 




3 


3 




2 








Carroll 






1 




1 
2 


1 

2 




1 
1 


1 

1 










Savanna 










All other units 










Cass 


47 


47 




28 


28 




7 


7 






28 
19 


28 
19 




22 
6 


22 
6 




5 
2 


5 


All other units 


2 1 


2 


Champaign 


26 


23 


3 13 


11 


2 


4 


2 




4 
10 
12 


4 
7 
12 




1 
4 

6 










Champaign City — 

Cunningham 

All other units 


-- 


6 
6 


2 


3 
1 


1 
1 


2 


Christian 


59 


59 




24 


24 




8 


8 






5 

12 
21 


5 

12 
21 




3 
10 
4 

7 


3 

10 

4 

7 




2 
3 
2 

1 


2 
3 
2 
1 




South Fork 








All other units 


21 21 




Clark 


25 


25 




9 


9 




2 


2 






6 
19 


6 
19 




4 
5 


4 
5 




1 
1 


1 

1 








Clay 


7 


7 




3 


3 


1 2 


2 




Harter 


3 

4 


3 
4 




2 
1 


2 

1 




2 


2 




All other units 




Clinton 


8 


8 




6 


6 




3 


3 






2 

6 


2 
6 




2 

4 


2 

4 




2 

1 


2 
1 








Coles 


48 


48 




19 


19 




4 


4 






11 
15 
22 


11 
15 
22 




5 
10 
4 


5 
10 

4 














4 


4 








All other units 










Cook County - 


2,015 


1,069 


946 


1,431 


563 


868 


1,263 


429 


834 




1,556 
459 


672 
397 


884 
62 


1,348 
83 


503 
60 


845 
23 


1,212 

51 


399 
30 


813 
21 


Excluding Chicago 


Outside Chicago: 

Berwyn -- 


22 
10 
74 
15 
15 
15 
62 
26 
43 
43 
31 
13 
7 

50 
33 


22 
10 
33 
15 
15 

6 
62 
23 
43 
38 
31 
12 

7 
47 
33 


41' 

9" 
-- 

5" 
-- 


2 
4 

10 
2 
3 

U 
5 
5 
7 

12 
1 
4 


2 
4 
1 
2 
3 
4 
5 
4 
7 
8 
1 
3 


9' 
-- 

-- 


1 
3 
9 
1 
2 
9 
3 
2 
5 
7 


1 
3 
1 
1 
2 
3 
3 
1 
5 
3 






" 8 




Calumet 






'6 






i 




Oak Park 


- 


Proviso 




1 


3 


2 


1 


Thornton 


Worth . .- 


3 


9 

8 


8 
8 


1 


6 


5 


1 


All other units 










Crawford 


36 


36 




5 


5 




2 


2 






7 
29 


7 
29 




1 
4 


1 
4 




1 
1 


1 

1 




All other units 


— 



842 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



Table 1. — Number of cases on relief in Illinois with less than S years' residence 
in local units in tchich they received relief by race, by less than 3 years* 
residence in county, and by less than 3 years' residence in State, fall, 1939 — 
Continued 







Less than 3 years' residence in local governmental unit 




County and local 
unit 


Total 
cases 


White 
and 
other 


Negro 


Less than 3 years' residence 
in county 


Less than 3 years' residence 
in State 




Total 


White 
and 
other 


Negro 


Total 


White 
and 
other 


Negro 


Cumberland 


10 


10 




1 


1 




1 


1 








DeKalb- 


15 


15 




10 


10 




3 


3 








De Kalb 


8 
4 
3 


8 
4 
3 




6 
1 
3 


6 

1 
3 




2 


2 








All other units 




1 


1 




De Witt 


37 


36 


1 


19 


18 


1 


1 




1 










27 
10 


26 
10 


1 


17 
2 


16 
2 


1 


1 




1 


All other units 














Douglas 


26 


26 




17 


17 




2 


2 










1 
25 


1 
25 




1 
16 


1 

16 










All other units 




2 


2 




Du Page 


66 


66 




43 


43 




9 


9 








Downers Grove 


22 
8 
14 
22 


22 
8 
14 
22 




15 
6 
8 

14 


15 
6 
8 

14 




5 


5 




York 




1 
3 


1 
3 




All other units 




Edgar 


18 


18 




12 


12 




4 


4 








Paris 


7 
11 


7 
11 




6 

6 


6 
6 




1 
3 


1 
3 




All other units 






3 


3 




3 


3 




1 


1 










3 


3 




3 


3 






















2 

1 


2 

1 




2 

1 


2 
1 






























Fayette .. 


14 


14 




8 


8 




2 


2 










8 
6 


8 
6 




4 
4 


4 
4 










All other units 




2 


2 




Ford 


1 


1 




1 


1 




1 


1 








Franklin .. . 


181 


181 




73 


73 




20 


20 








Benton 


32 
26 
9 
30 
12 
15 
42 
15 


32 
26 
9 
30 
12 
15 
42 
15 




18 
6 
4 

13 
4 
9 

15 
4 


18 
6 
4 

13 
4 
9 

15 
4 




6 
3 
1 


6 
3 
1 




Browning .. 




Denning . 








Goode . 




1 
5 
3 

1 


1 

5 
3 

1 




Six Mile 




Tyrone 




All other units 





Fulton 


82 


82 




29 


29 




5 


5 








Canton. .. 


16 
13 

1 
52 


16 
13 
1 
52 




9 

7 


9 

7 




2 


2 




Farmington 












All other units 




13 


13 




3 


3 






64 


64 




36 


36 




27 


27 








Equality 


8 
10 
46 


8 
10 
46 




5 
3 
28 


5 
3 

28 




1 

2 

24 


1 

2 

24 




Shawnee - 




All other units 





INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



843 



Table l—NnmJ)er of cases (m relief in Illinois with less thanS years residence 
^local units in which they received relief l>y race, Mj l^^fJ'V''.^,Z 
residence in oounty, and Ixj less than 3 years' residmce in State, fall, W3i)— 
Continued 





Less than 3 years' residence in local governmental 


unit 




County and local 


Total 
cases 


White 
and 
other 


Negro 


Less than 3 years' residence 
in county 


Less than 3 years' residence 
in State 


unit 


Total 


W ite 
and 
other 


Negro 


Total 


White 
and 
other 


Negro 


Greene 


57 


57 




16 


16 . 




3 


3 . 






9 
10 
38 


9 
10 
38 




1 
5 


1 
5 




i' " 

2 


i 

2 




White Hall 




All other units 


10 lU 




Grundy - 


9 

6 
3 

20 

11 
9 


9 

6 
3 

20 


- 


4 A 










Morris 


2 

11 


2 










All other units 




1 


1 




Hamilton. 


11 




McLeansboro 

All other units 


11 
9 




5 
6 


5 
6 




1 


1 




Hancock 


13 


13 




3 


3 




2 


2 




Dallas City--,- 

All other units 


5 
8 


5 
8 




2 
1 


2 
1 




2 


2 




Hardin - -- 


1 


1 




1 


1 




1 


1 




Henderson.-. --- 


5 


5 




4 


4 




3 


3 




Oquawka 

All other units 


4 

1 


4 

1 




4 


4 




3 


3 




Henry 


18 


17 


1 


12 


11 


1 


7 


6 


1 




5 
5 

8 


5 
4 

8 


-. 


3 
3 
6 


3 
2 
6 


.- 


2 
2 
3 


2 

1 
3 


- 




All other units 




Iroquois 


11 


11 




4 


4 




2 


2 






1 
1 


1 
10 




1 
3 


1 
3 










All other units 




2 


2 




ackson 


49 


36 


13 


31 


20 


11 


13 


7 


6 




12 
11 
26 


7 
6 
23 


5 
5 
3 


7 
9 
15 


3 
4 
13 


4 
5 
2 


2 
5 
6 


1 
1 
5 


1 
4 
1 


Murphysboro 

All other units 


Jasper 


8 


8 




3 


3 




2 


2 




Jefferson 


42 


38 


4 


19 


15 


4 


6 


5 


1 


All other units. 


26 
16 


22 
16 


4 


14 
5 


10 

5 


4 


6 


5 


1 


Jersey.. --- 


6 


6 




4 


4 












5 

1 


5 

1 




3 

1 


3 
1 




















All other units 










Jo Daviess... 


3 


3 




1 


1 




1 


1 
























All other units 


3 


3 




1 


1 




1 


1 




Johnson 


5 


4 


1 


5 


4 


1 


2 


1 


1 


Kane 


45 


42 


3 


30 


27 


3 


8 


8 






26 
1 
2 

16 


23 


3 


21 
1 
2 


18 
1 
2 


3 


5 
1 
1 
1 


5 

1 
1 






1 

2 




El^in 






16 


1 


6 


6 




-""."'" 



844 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



Table 1. — Number of cases on relief in Illinois with less than 3 years' residence 
in local units in which they received relief by race, by less than 3 years' 
residence i7i county, and by less than 3 years' residence in State, fall, 1939 — 
Continued 





Less than 3 years' residence in local governmental unit 


County and local 
unit 


Total 
cases 


White 
and 
other 


Negro 


Less than 3 years' residence 
in county 


Less than 3 years' residence 
in State 




Total 


White 
and 
other 


Negro 


Total 


White 
and 
other 


Negro 


Kankakee 


44 


38 


6 


18 


14 


4 


3 


2 


1 








7 
13 
24 


7 
9 
22 


2 


4 

7 
7 


4 
4 
6 












3 
1 


1 
2 




1 


All other units 


2 




Kendall 


7 


7 




3 


3 






















50 


43 


2 


30 


29 


1 


10 


9 


1 






Galesburg City 


24 
12 
14 


22 
12 
14 


2 


16 
9 
5 


15 
9 
5 


1 


7 
2 
1 


6 
2 
1 


1 


All other units 




Lake 


148 


140 


8 


50 


43 


7 


26 


21 


5 






Deerfleld 


4 
21 

9 
32 
22 
60 


4 
21 

7 
27 
21 
60 


5 

1 


3 
2 
2 

18 
10 
15 


3 
2 


4 

1 


1 
1 
1 
12 
7 
4 


1 
1 




Libertvville 




Shields 


1 


Waukegan 


14 
9 
15 


9 
6 
4 


3 


Zion - . 


1 


All other units 




La Salle 


90 


87 


3 


23 


22 


1 


5 


5 








Bruce 


15 
9 
3 

20 
9 

34 


15 
9 
3 

19 
9 

32 










3 


3 




















1 
12 
3 

7 


1 
12 
3 
6 










Ottawa... --- 


-. 


1 

1 


1 

1 




Peru 
















Lawrence 


43 


43 




21 


21 




6 


6 








Denison 


5 
19 
19 


5 
19 
19 




3 

11 

7 


3 
11 

7 




1 
4 
1 


1 
4 

1 




Lawrence... 




All other units 




Livingston. 


17 


17 




9 


9 




2 


2 










4 
6 
7 


4 
6 

7 




2 
2 
5 


2 

2 
5 










Pontiac. _ 




1 
1 


1 

1 




All other units 




Logan 


51 


50 


1 


9 


8 


1 


2 


2 










20 
20 
11 


19 
20 
11 


1 


4 
1 
4 


3 

1 
4 


1 
















All other units 




2 


2 




McDonough 


37 


37 




15 


15 




4 


4 








Bushnell 


10 
20 

7 

11 


10 
20 

7 




2 
9 
4 


2 
9 
4 










Macomb City. 




4 


4 






, 










■McHenry 


11 




5 


5 




2 


2 








Dorr. 


7 
4 


7 
4 




3 
2 


3 
2 




1 
1 


1 

1 




All other units 




McLean 


138 


134 


4 


33 


31 


2 


10 


10 








Bloomington City. - 
Empire 


49 

6 

19 

64 


45 
6 
19 
64 


4 


20 


18 


2 


7 


7 








2 
11 


2 
11 










All other units 




3 


3 





INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



845 



Table l—mimher of cases on relief in Illinois with less than S years' residence 
in local units in which they received relief lij race, 0/ less than 3 years' 
residence in comity, and hy less than 3 years' residence in State, fall, UdV— 
Continued 





Less than 3 years' residence in local governmental unit 


County and local 
unit 


Total 
cases 


White 
and 
other 


Negro 


Less than 3 years' residence 
in county 


Less than 3 years' residence 
in State 


Total 


White 
and 
other 


Negro 


Total 


White 
and 
other 


Negro 


Macon 


64 


61 


3 


26 


23 


3 


8 


6 


2 




32 
32 


29 
32 


3 


22 


19 


3 


7 
1 


5 

1 


2 


All other units 


4 4 1 




Macoupin 


90 


90 




35 


35 




11 


11 




Cahokia 


3 
8 
6 
12 
5 
8 
17 
31 


3 

8 
6 
12 
5 
8 
17 
31 




1 

2 

4 
5 
2 
2 
4 
15 


1 
2 
4 
5 
2 
2 
4 
15 




1 


1 




Carlinville. 














1 
2 
1 
1 
5 


1 

2 
1 
1 
5 








Mount Olive 








All other units 




Madison 


139 


128 


11 


64 


54 


10 


35 

8 
6 
1 
2 
2 
11 
3 
2 


27 


8 


Alton 


16 
6 
4 
9 
18 
31 
35 
20 


11 
5 
4 
9 
18 
26 
35 
20 


5 

1 

-- 


14 
6 
3 
4 
4 

16 
9 
8 


9 
5 
3 
4 
4 

12 
9 
8 


5 
1 


3 
5 
1 
2 
2 
9 
3 
2 


5 
1 




Edwardsville 

Granite City 

Nameoki 


' 2 




Wood River 

All other units 




Marion 


33 


29 


4 


25 


21 


4 


8 


5 


3 




11 

10 
12 


7 
10 
12 


4 


10 

8 

7 


6 
8 

7 


4 


3 
1 
4 




3 


Centralia 


1 
4 




Salem -- 




All other units 




Marshall 


9 


9 




7 


7 




1 


1 






2 

7 


2 

7 
















Bennington 

All other units 




7 


7 




1 


1 






14 
12 
43 

23 


14 
12 
43 




6 
12 
21 


6 
12 
21 




2 
4 
4 


2 

4 
4 








Menard 




Mercer -- 


23 




8 


8 




1 


1 






9 
14 


9 
14 

56 




2 
6 


2 
6 










New Boston 

All other units 




1 


1 




Montgomery 


56 




35 


35 




7 


7 




Hillsboro 


6 

4 

5 

41 


6 

4 

5 

41 




4 

1 

3 

27 


4 

1 

3 

27 










Nokomis 

North Litchfield.... 
All other units 




3" 

4 


-- 

4 




Morgan 


38 


34 


4 


34 


31 


3 


8 


6 


2 


Moultrie 


15 


15 




11 


11 




3 


3 






5 
10 


5 
10 




4 

7 


4 
7 




1 
2 


1 
2 








Ogle .- 


11 


11 




6 


6 




2 


2 






8 
3 


8 
3 




5 
1 


5 

1 




1 
1 


1 
1 




All other units 





I 



846 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



Table 1. — Nxmhcr of cnaes on relief in Illinois with less than 3 years' residence 
in local units in which they received relief by race, by less than 3 years' 
residence in county, and by less than 3 years' residence in State, fall, 1939 — 
Continued 





Less than 3 years' residence in local governmental unit 


County and local 
unit 


Total 
cases 


White 
and 
other 


Negro 


Less than 3 years' residence 
in county 


Less than 3 years' residence 
in State 


Total 


White 
and 
other 


Negro 


Total 


White 
and 
other 


Negr 


Peoria.. . .. . 


111 


101 


10 


73 


63 


10 


24 


17 


7 






Peoria City 

All other units 


65 
46 


56 
45 


9 
1 


51 
22 


42 
21 


9 
1 


17 

7 


11 
6 


6 

1 


Perry. . 


15 

8 


14 
8 


1 


13 

4 


12 
4 


1 


2 
3 


1 
3 


1 


Piatt 




Pike 


53 


53 




29 


29 




11 


11 










9 

9 

S5 

12 
19 


9 
9 
35 




6 
6 
17 


6 
6 
17 




3 
2 

6 


3 
2 
6 




Pearl 




All other units 




Pope . - 


11 
9 


1 
10 


12 
18 


11 
8 


1 
10 


5 
10 


4 
4 


1 


Pulaski 


6 








6 


6 




6 


6 






















4 
2 

85 


4 
2 




4 
2 


4 
2 










All other units 


















Randolph 


82 


3 


62 


59 


3 


20 


18 


2 


Rock Island 


26 


25 


1 


15 


14 


1 


12 


12 










10 

7 
9 


10 
6 
9 


.. 


5 
5 
5 


5 
4 
5 


l" 


5 
3 
4 


5 
3 
4 




Rock Island 

All other units 




St. Clair 


156 


110 


46 


81 


52 


29 


53 


32 


21 






Belleville . - 


11 

18 
36 
48 
9 
34 


11 
18 
18 
30 

33' 


is" 

18 
9 

1 


7 
8 
12 
34 
8 
12 


7 
8 
6 
19 


15 

8 


4 
10 

5 
22 

7 

5 


4 
10 

1 
12 




Canteen . .. 






4 


East St. Louis 

Stites 


10 

7 


All other units 


12 


5 




Saline 


141 


133 


8 


52 


47 


5 


12 


11 


1 


Carrier Mills. 

East Eldorado 

Harrisbure 


24 
24 
37 
9 

26 
21 


20 
24 
34 
9 

25 
21 


4 
-. 


8 
13 
11 
2 
6 
12 


5 

13 
9 
2 
6 
12 


3 
2' 


2 
1 
5 


2 

1 
4 


- 


Independence 

Rsleigh . 






1 
3 


1 
3 




All other units. 




Sanuamon 


116 


113 


3 


48 


46 


2 


20 


18 


2 








5 

33 

1 

14 
12 
12 
39 


5 
30 

1 
14 
12 
12 
39 


-- 


2 
17 


2 

15 










Capital 


2 


8 


6 


2 






Mechanicsburg 

Springfield 




2 
6 
5 
16 


2 
6 
5 
16 




1 

5 
1 
5 


1 
6 
1 
5 




Woodside 




All other units 




Schuyler 


26 


26 




10 


10 




1 


1 




Rushville 


8 
18 


8 
18 




4 
6 


4 
6 




1 


1 




All other units 












Scott 


6 


6 




4 


4 




1 


1 








Shelby 


30 


30 




15 


15 




5 


5 




Shelbvville 


6 
24 


6 
24 




1 
14 


1 
14 




1 
4 


1 
4 




All other units 





INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



847 



T^ARTT. 1 —UumUr of cases on relief in IlUnois xmth less than S years' residence 
^Tzoca^TS' . i//uk tney releived relief W race, l>y ^^l^^J^^^^^ 

residence in county, and hy less than 3 years' residence in State, fall, lJo9- 

Continued 





Less than 3 years' residence in local governmental unit 




County and local 


Total 
cases 


White 
and 
other 


Negro 


Less than 3 years' 'esidence 
in county 


Less than 3 years' residence 
in State 


unit 


Total 


White 
and 
other 


Negro 


Total 


White 
and 
other 


Negro 




9 






3 


2 


1 








Stephenson 


8 1 1 









Freeport 


5 
4 

90 


5 
3 


-. 


2 
1 


2 


-. 








Tazewell - 


90 




63 


63 




9 


9 






43 

14 

24 

9 


43 

14 

24 

9 




40 
9 

12 
2 


40 
9 

12 
2 




4 
1 
4 


4 

1 
4 








Pekin 




Union 


36 


36 




14 14 




4 


4 


Vermilion 


104 


97 


7 


49 


43 


6 
6 


22 


17 


5 




33 
6 

13 

11 
4 

37 


27 
6 

13 

11 
4 

36 


6 

" i" 


23 
3 
6 
9 
1 
7 


17 
3 
6 
9 
1 
7 


14 
1 
3 
3 


9 
1 
3 
3 


5 










Grant 








1 


1 




All other units - 




Wabash 


7 


7 


7 


7 




5 


5 




Warren. 


19 


18 


1 


13 


12 


1 


2 


2 




Monmouth.-- 

All other units. 


14 
5 


13 
5 


1 


9 

4 


8 
4 


1 


2 


2 




Washington 


1 


1 




1 1 




1 


1 




Wayne -- 


28 


28 




8 8 




2 


2 






4 
5 
19 


4 
5 
19 




2 
4 


2 
2 
4 










Four Mile 










Orel 




2 


2 








White 


26 


25 


1 


15 


15 




5 


5 




Indian Creek 

All other units 


5 
21 


5 
20 


-- 


4 
11 


4 
11 




-- 


-- 




Whiteside. 


11 


11 




7 


7 




4 


4 




Fulton 


3 

8 


3 

8 




1 
6 


1 
6 




1 


1 
3 




All other units 






WiU 


64 


59 


5 


38 


34 


4 


7 


4 


3 




36 
4 
24 


32 
3 

24 


4 

1 


24 


20 


4 


7 


4 


3 


All other units 


14 


14 










Williamson 


71 


66 


5 


69 


64 


5 


18 


17 


1 


Winnebago 


84 


78 


6 


67 


61 


6 


39 


34 


5 


Eockford 


61 
23 


56 
22 


5 
1 


55 
12 


50 
11 


5 

1 


31 

8 


27 
7 


4 

1 


All other units 




3 


3 


\.......| 2 


2 














~ ~ 










i 









t 



848 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



Table 2. — Sources of interageyicy inquiries received hy the Illinois Emergency 
Relief Commission in 1938 

[Illinois Emergency Relief Commission, division of certification and service, July 13, 1939] 



Point of origin 


Number 
of in- 
quiries 


Point of origin 


Number 
of in- 
quiries 


California .. -- 


818 


Missouri 


123 




St. Louis... 




Los Angeles 


408 
46 
41 
52 

271 


73 


Oakland 


Scattered cities 


50 




New York 






200 










123 


Illinois 


628 


Scattered cities - 


77 




Ohio 




Chicago . . - .-- .. 


586 
42 


74 




Cleveland 

Toledo 






27 
26 


Indiana 


71 




21 




45 
26 


Oregon. - 




Scattered cities. 


68 




Portland 




Iowa 


141 


30 






38 




41 
24 
76 


Washington. 




Davenport 


86 




Seattle 






24 


Michigan.. 


162 


Scattered cities 


62 




Wisconsin . 




Detroit .— 


60 
25 

77 


99 


Lansing 


Milwaukee 




Scattered cities 


63 






36 




69 


Other States 






253 


Minneapolis 

St. Paul..-. 


25 

36 

6 






Scattered cities . 






_ 



Table 3. — Purposes of interagency inquiries received by tlie Illinois Emergency 
Relief Commission in 1938 

[Illinois Emergency Relief Commission, division of certification and service, July 13, 1939] 



Rank 


Purposes of inquiry 


Volume 


Percent- 
age 


1 


Authorization to return 


'1,008 
638 
478 
1274 
237 
111 
46 


136.1 


2 




22.8 


3 


Social investigation .... . . . 


17.1 


4 




19.8 


5 


Unknown 


8.4 


6 


Other . . 


3.9 


7 


Vital statistics . 


1.6 




Total -. 






2,792 


100.0 









The total number pertaining to residence is 1,282, or 45.9 percent of the total number of letters received. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



849 



Table 4. — Number and purpose of interagency inquiries received ly the Illinois 
Emergency Relief Commission in 1938 

[Illinois Emergency Relief Commission, division of certification and service, July 13, 1939] 



State 



(a) 



United States total- 
Percent 

Alabama 

Arizona 

Arkansas - 

California 

Colorado 

Connecticut 

Delaware 

Florida 

Georgia..- 

Idaho 

Illinois 

Indiana. 

Iowa -- 

Kansas 

Kentucky 

Louisiana 

Maine 

Maryland 

Massachusetts 

Michigan 

Minnesota 

Mississippi 

Missouri 

Montana.- 

Nebraska.- — 

Nevada 

New Hampshire—. 

New Jersey 

New Mexico 

New York 

North Carolina 

North Dakota 

Ohio 

Oklahoma 

Oregon 

Pennsylvania 

Rhode Island 

South Carolina 

South Dakota 

Tennessee 

Texas 

Utah 

Vermont-,.- - 

Virginia 

Washington 

Washington, D. C- 

West Virginia 

Wisconsin 

Wyoming .- 



Number 

of 
inquiries 



(b) 



Purpose of inquiry 



Authori- 
zation to 
return 

(0 



2,792 

100.0 

10 

8 

4 

818 

4 

1 

I' 
3 
3 

628 
71 
141 
23 
3 
21 
-- 

4 
162 
69 



23 

1 

----- 

4 
200 

1 
14 
74 
10 
68 
51 

1 

11 
6 
11 



1,008 

36.1 

1 

3 

""'§24' 
1 



315 

14 

39 

2 

1 

3 



Verifica- 
tion of 
residence 

(d) 



274 



Social in- 
vestiga- 
tion 

(e) 



478 
17.1 
3 
1 
2 
91 
1 
1 



1 

110 

28 

25 

5 

1 

3 



Support 

from 
relative 

(f) 



638 

22.8 

5 

2 

"234' 
1 



Vital 
statistics 

(g) 



1 

3 

49 

""5' 
16 

4 
23 
11 

1 

6 
1 

7 

"\ 
19 

"i 
13 



46 
1.6 



Other 
(h) 



111 
3.9 



Un- 
known 

(i) 



237 

8.4 
1 
1 
2 
72 
1 



350 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Table 5. — Amount of relief authorised ' for a family of Jf ^ loith no outside income 
in selected ^ relief units in Illinois, May 194O 

[Illinois Emergency Relief Commission, division of certification and service, Aug. 8, 1940] 

Relief authorized 
Relief unit May 19',0 * 

Downers Grove (Du Page County) $60.00 

City of Chicago (Cook County) 59. 84 

Wheeling (CooIj County) 49.94 

Rock Island (Rock Island County) 48.86 

Springfield (Sangamon County) 46.72 

Capitol (Sangamon County) 45.51 

City of Peoria (Peoria County) 42.71 

South Rock Island (Rock Island County) 42.64 

Perry County (commission) 42.31 

East St. Louis (St. Clair County) 41.42 

Massac County (commission county) 35.97 

City of Rockford (Wiimebago County) 35.76 

Williamson County (commission) 34.97 

Sycamore (De Kalb County) 33.89 

Taylorville (Christian County) 32.06 

Carrier Mills (Saline County) 31.63 

Mall (Bureau County) 30.57 

Hillsboro (Montgomery County) 30.06 

Areola (Douglas County) 26.83 

Pulaski County (commission) 22.41 

Alexander County (commission) 19.75 

Scott County (commission) 17.51 

1 Items authorized for issue only in special case circumstances have been excluded. Such 
items are special diets, transportation for school or clinic, medical care, and hospitalization. 

2 Man, woman, boy 13, girl 8. 

' Selected to give coverage of State in terms of geographical location, 1930 population, 
size of case load, and types of economic activity predominating in various sections of 
the State. 

* Preliminary figures subject to revision. 

TESTIMONY OF MR. AND MRS. GEORGE HANKE 

The Chairman. Mr. and Mrs. Hanke. Congressman Sparkman 
will question you. 

Mr. Sparkman. Will you state your name for the record, please. 

Mr. Hanke. George Hanke. 

Mr. Sparkman. How old are you, Mr. Hanke? 

Mr. Hanke, Thirty-seven. 

Mr. Sparkman. Where were you born ? 

Mr. Hanke. Chicago. 

Mr. Sparkman. You have lived in Chicago all of your life? 

Mr. Hanke. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. What education did you have ? 

Mr, Hanke. Grammar-school graduate. 

Mr. Sparkman. Do you have a trade ? 

Mr. Hanke. I do. 

Mr. Sparkman. What is it ? 

Mr. Hanke. My dad taught me wood-working machines. 

Mr. Sparkman. Wood-working machines ? 

Mr. Hanke. Wood-working machines, sawing and wood working. 

Mr. Sparkman. Is that your family ? 

Mr. Hanke. Yes. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 851 

Mr. Sparkman. One baby? 
Mr. Hanke. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. How old is the baby ? 
Mr. Hanke. Four months. 
Mr. Sparkman. Have you ever been on relief ? 
Mr. Hanke. I was part time, and then on private employment, and 
then back on relief again. 

Mr. Sparkman. When was that ? 
Mr. Hanke. From 1935 to 1939. 

relief and residence status 

Mr. Sparkman. How did you happen to get off relief in 1939? 

Mr. Hanke. I accepted private employment. 

Mr, Sparkman. Where? 

Mr. Hanke. In Chicago and up in Minneapolis. 

Mr. Sparkman. When you went to Minneapolis, did you move 
up there? 

Mr. Hanke. I went up there, and naturally I would have to make 
my — I would have to live up there for the time being while the work 
was being done up there. I couldn't travel back and forth. _ 

Mr. Sparkman. In other words, when you went, you went simply 
to stay there while you were working? 

Mr.' Hanke. Wliile I was working; yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. While you had work? 

Mr. Hanke. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Then it was your intention to return to Chi- 
cago ? 

Mr. Hanke. It was my intention to return to Chicago, because I 
was born here and raised here, and this w\as my home here. 

Mr. Sparkman. You were on relief in Chicago? 

Mr. Hanke. I was on relief in Chicago ; yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. You went to Minneapolis to accept private em- 
ployment ? 

Mr. Hanke. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Did you discuss with the Chicago relief people 
before you left what you were going to do ? 

Mr. Hanke. I did, over at the Wicker Park station. 

Mr. Sparkman. Did you state to them you were going to Minne- 
apolis to accept a private position? 

Mr. Hanke. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. How long did you work in IMinneapolis ? 

Mr. Hanke. Four and a half months at the Mitchell Battery Cor- 
poration. Then I was on a farm, working on farms threshing. 

Mr. Sparkman. You had total employment there of how much? 
Was it about 6 months? 

Mr. Hanke. Possibly about 6 months. 

Mr. Sparkman. Did you go on relief there? 

Mr. Hanke. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. After your employment was up ? 

Mr. Hanke. Yes. 



g52 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. Sparkmax. When was that? 

Mr. Hanke. From about December 1939 until the 7th of March 1940. 
Mr. Sparkman. Did you work at the battery place until the job 
ran out? 

Mr. Hanke. Yes ; I was laid off there. 
Mr. Sparkman. Then you got a job harvesting? 
Mr. Hanke. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. You stayed with that until the season was over? 
Mr. Hanke. Yes ; until that was through. 

Mr. Sparkman. Then you went on relief and stayed until March? 
Mr. Hanke. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. What happened in March ? 

Mr. HANiiE. I was due for another ticket. I had to call at the relief 
office there and I was posted — when I came at 8 o'clock in the morning. 
I was posted to come back at 1, 1 o'clock in the afternoon, not stating 
what was to be done. When I came back at 1 o'clock in the afternoon, 
I was told that they were sending me back to Chicago on the 4 o'clock 
train that very day. They drove me home and bought a ticket. 

My wife was carrying the baby at the time. She was over at the 
prenatal clinic. The case worker called up the prenatal clinic and 
asked the doctor if she was able to travel by train. He said "Yes," 
even in spite of her condition, and they sent us down. 
Mr. Sp^vrkman. When was the baby born ? 
Mr. Hanke. March 31, 1940. 

JSIr. Sparkjvian. This was about 3 weeks before the baby was born ? 
Mr. Hanke. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. "\Anien you applied for relief at Minneapolis, did 
you have any difficulty getting it? 

Mr. Hanke. Well, 1 had to — I didn't have much difficulty. 
Mr. Sparkman. Here is what I am getting at, Mr. Hanke : Did Min- 
neapolis accept you as a resident there, or were you considered as a 
resident of Chicago? 

Mr. Hanke. I was taken in there on relief as a transient. 
Mr. Sparkman. As a transient? 

Mr. Hanke. Yes; they have a transient bureau there. 
Mr. Sparkman. Did you give them your Chicago connection? 
Mr. Hanke. Right. 

Mr. Sparkman. Do you know whether or not they got in touch with 
Chicago relief? 

Mr. Hanke. They got in touch with Chicago relief. 
Mr. Sparkman. Did Chicago ask for you to be sent back? 
Mr. Hanke. No; not according to Chicago. Chicago stated that 
Minneapolis sent me back. 

]Mr. Sparkman. You got that word after 3'ou got back down here? 
Mr. Hanke. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Did Minneapolis tell you they had contacted 
Chicago ? 

Mr. Hanke. They stated they contacted Chicago and when I 
arrived here all I had to do was go down to the relief office here, and 
I would be taken care of. 

Mr. Sparkman. They furnished you a ticket from Minneapolis? 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 853 

Mr. Hanke. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Did they give you any expense money or any- 
thing ? 

Mr. Hanke. They gave us a few doUars expense money for food. 
Mr. Sparkman. What time did you get to Chicago? 
Mr. Hanke. About midnight. 
Mr. Sparkman. What did you do then ? 
Mr. Hanke. We slept in the raih"oad depot. 
Mr. Sparkman. You and your wife, Mrs. Hanke? 
Mr. Hanke. We slept in the railroad depot ; yes. 
Mr. Sparkman. Did you go down to the relief office the next day ? 
Mr. Hanke. The following morning ; yes. 
Mr. Sparkman. What happened? 

Mr. Hanke. I went to the Chicago relief office at Wicker Park. 
They stated I would have to report to Harrison and Halsted, to the 
transient bureau. I went down and they gave me an application, 
listened to my case and gave me an application and I filled it out. 
I had that okayed and notarized, and then they gave me a card 
stating that I was supposed to be back there at 9:30, the 13th of 
March. 

Mr. Sparkman. This was about the 8tli of March? 
Mr. Hanke. This was the 8th of ISIarch. They gave me a card, 
and I was supposed to report back on the 13th. 
Mr. Sparkman. On the 13th ? 

Mr. Hanke. Yes. I came down there, my wife and I. We sat 
there on the nice soft benches they have there from 9 : 30 in the morn- 
ing until 4:30 in the afternoon, without a bite to eat or anything. 
We came back and a young lady come out and said "I am awfully 
sorry, but I can't do anything for you. You are listed as a non- 
resident. I spoke to our legal department, and they are not going 
to carry you unless you are here 3 years." 

Mr. Sparkman. Now, you had been here all of your life? 
Mr. Hanke. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. And had gone away and stayed away about 6 
months ? 

Mr. Hanke. Nine months. 
Mr. Sparkman. Nine months? 
Mr. Hanke. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. What was the settlement period in Minneapolis, do 
you know? Did they tell you? 
Mr. Hanke. Two years. 
Mr. Sparkman. Two years? 
Mr. Hanke. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. You would have had to be there 2 years before you 
would have been entitled to relief as a resident of that State? 
Mr. Hanke. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Sparkman. But although you had been gone only 9 months, you 
had lost your residence here? 
Mr. Hanke. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Did you go away with any intention of staying 
nway, or moving your home away? 



354 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. Hanke. No, sir ; I explained that to the man at the relief office, 
the period of work. 

Mr. Sparkman. You explained to him you were moving away simply 
for the purpose of finding private employment ? 

Mr. Hanke. Yes. 

Mr, Sparkman. For that period only? 

Mr. Hanke. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. And that you intended to retain your home in 
Chicago ? 

Mr. Hanke. Yes ; as soon as there would be a chance for work in 
Chicago, I would be back. 

Mr. Sparkman. So now you are neither a resident of Chicago nor of 
Minneapolis ? 

Mr. Hanke. Neither one. I don't know where I belong now. 

Mr. Sparkman. Are you getting any relief? 

Mr. Hanke. I am being taken care of by the Salvation Army at 
present. 

Mr. Sparkman. You are not getting any public relief ? 

Mr. Hanke. No. 

Mr. Sparkman. That is a private agency? 

Mr. Hanke. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Are you getting any work? 

Mr. Hanke. I am out every day looking. 

Mr. Sparkman. Do you find any? 

Mr. Hanke. I have had several prospects, "Will call," just as soon 
as the weather changes and business picks up a little, along that line. 

Mr. Sparkman. Have you done any work at all since returning here 
in March ? 

Mr. Hanke. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Wliat? 

Mr. Hanke. Dishwashing. 

Mr. Sparkman. For whom ? 

Mr. Hanke. Salvation Army. 

Mr. Sparkman. The Salvation Army is taking care of you ? 

Mr. Hankje. One of their hotels. It is like — the same as a hotel. 

Mr. Sparkman. Oh, yes. 

Mr. Hanke. They have people working there. I was working there 
during vacation period. 

Mr. Sparkman. You have not had any independent job of your 
own? 

Mr. Hanke. No. 

Mr. Sparkman. You still regard yourself as a citizen of Chicago? 

Mr. Hanke. Right. 

Mr. Sparkman. Do you vote here, Mr. Hanke ? 

Mr. Hanke. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Have you always voted here ? 

Mr. Hanke. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. You are still a voting citizen ? 

Mr. Hanke. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. But not a resident? 

Mr. Hanke. That is what they tell me. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 855 

Mr. Sparkman. Mrs. Hanke, do you have anything to add to what 
Mr. Hanke has said? 

Mrs. Hanke. No; I don't think so. 

Mr. Hanke. What I want, is not lelief. I am physically able to go 
out and work and take care of my wife. That is what I want to do. 
I'm not seeking relief if I can possibly help it. All I want is to try to 
get something to tide over until private work could be had. 

Mr. Sparkman. Are you registered with the employment agencies? 

Mr. Hanke. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. You are able-bodied? 

Mr. Hanke. I am. 

Mr. Sparkman. You have not had any employment at all since 1935 
other than a job in Minneapolis that only lasted for a short time? 

Mr. Hanke. I had about 10 months of work at a bicycle place here in 
Chicago. 

Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Hanke, during the time you have had to seek 
relief, have you taken a job every time you got a chance to take a job in 
private employment ? 

Mr. Hanke. Every job that was available I accepted. 

Mr. Sparkman. In other words, the thing you are looking for is 
work so that you can sustain yourself and your family? 

Mr. Hanke. Right. 

Mr. Sparkman. I believe that is all. 

The Chairman. Are there any other questions, gentlemen? (No 
response.) You are excused, Mr. and Mrs. Hanke. Thank you very 
much. 

(Whereupon Mr. and Mrs. Hanke were excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF ALBERT LEWIS HILER 

The Chairman. Mr. Hiler. Congressman Parsons will question 
you, Mr. Hiler. 

Mr. Parsons. State your name and address to the reporter. 

Mr. Hiler. Albert Lewis Hiler, 811 West Lawrence. 

Mr. Parsons. Chicago? 

Mr. Hiler. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. Where were you born, Mr. Hiler? 

Mr. Hiler. Richmond, N. J. 

Mr, Parsons. When? 

Mr. Hiler. October 10, 1915. 

Mr. Parsons. You have spent most of your life in New Jersey? 

Mr. Hiler. No ; New York State. 

Mr. Parsons. When did you go to New York State? 

Mr. Hiler, I do not remember the exact date, but very shortly after 
I was born. I imagine within 1 or 2 years. 

Mr, Parsons. Did you go to school in New Jersey ? 

Mr, Hiler. No. I never attended school in New Jersey. 

Mr. Parsons. What educational opportunities haA^e you had, and 
how far did you go? 

Mr. Hiler. I graduated from Staunton Military Academy, and 
took a 1-year postgraduate course in a school in New York State. 



260370— 40— pt. 3- 



g56 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. Parsons. How old were vou when you finished school? 

Mr. HiLER. 19. 

Mr. Parsons. What did you do in New York? 

Mr. HiLER. I entered a business that had been my hobby ever since 
I was 8 years old. I went into tlie postage-stamp business. I was 
employed by a wholesale stamp firm for a short time in 1935, and then 
I went into'the business on my own. In a short time I made sufficient 
capital to establish myself fairly well in business, 

Mr. Parsons. Just how successful were you ? What was your rev- 
enue per year, approximately? 

Mr. HiLER. I was rather successful in my business, and during 1936 
I would say my gross revenue was about $10,000 and in 1937 it was 
about double that. 

Mr. Parsons. I understand from your statement here that you had 
offices not only in New York but also in London and Berlin ; is that 
true ? 

Mr. HiLER. Yes. I was considered as a resident of England for 
3 years— 1936, 1937, and 1938. 

Mr. Parsons. You were considered as a resident of England? 

Mr. HiLER. Yes. I always retained my American, citizenship, but 
when I reentered the United States, I reentered as a nonresident of 
this country. 

Mr. Parsons. You were out of the States for more than 2 years? 

Mr. HiLER. I was never out of the United States for a period 
longer than 6 months. 

Mr. Parsons. What happened 

Mr. HiLER. Nine months, rather. 

Mr. Parsons. Nine months? 

Mr. HiLER. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. If you are out more than 2 years without revisiting, 
you have to reenter again. 

Mr. HiLER. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. You were considered as being a resident of England ? 

Mr. HiLER. No; a citizen of the United States, but a nonresident. 
In other words, I had nonresident status coming in, as far as customs 
regulations were concerned. In other words, taking up a permanent 
residence in England enabled me — or rather, made it easier for me 
to enter the United States in relation to customs duties and regu- 
lations. 

Mr. Parsons. AVliat happened that your business collapsed ? 

Mr. HiLFJt. Well, various things. I embarked in 1937 on an enter- 
prise in partnership with another gentleman, an Englishman, which 
took me around the world, especially to the South Sea Islands to 
procure large quantities of coronation stamps, buying them unused 
in the South Sea Islands and posting them back to England, to 
supply unused stamps for collectors. Even though we figured the 
enterprise could not be a failure, because we purchased the stamps 
at face value, something that previously had never happened in the 
postage-stamp business on any great scale occurred in the latter part 
of 1937 when in England they had a rather severe stock-market re- 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 857 

cession owing to new taxation on corporations that was announced, 
and rearmament plans. 

In 1935 there was an issue of stamps for the entire British Empire 
commemorating the twenty-fifth anniversary of the coronation of 
King George. That issue of stamps inside of one year quadrupled 
its value. So in 1937 when a similar issue of stamps commemorating 
the coronation of King George VI came out, speculators, not in the 
stamp business but in stocks, bought large quantities of these coro- 
nation stamps, hoping a repetition would occur. Wlien this stocii 
market recession occurred, these men who had gone into stamps as 
a side line, being that stocks were their primary interest, sold or 
unloaded them, you might say; they unloaded their supplies of 
stamps to release the cash represented. 

In the stamp business when a large quantity of stamps is offered 
for sale at any one time and pushed onto the market it causes a 
general decline in the selling price of the stamps, and that is what 
occurred. These stamps that were selling at that time for from 10 
to 50 percent over their face value dropped to one-third below face 
value. To this day coronation stamps are still selling around face 
value. 

Mr. Parsons. What is the highest price you ever received for a 
stamp ? 

Mr. HiLER. I could not say. I would not recall definitely. I do 
not deal in rare stamps, if you mean to bring that out. I dealt in 
large quantities, wholesale quantities of medium-priced stamps. 

Mr. Parsons. You say you took a trip to the South Sea Islands. 

Mr. HiLER. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. How much capital did it take to set you up for that 
kind of business? 

Mr. HiLER. That trip represented a total investment of about 
$30,000, partially put up by myself and my partner, and also an- 
other wholesale stamp dealer in England, but the trip was not a 
success owing to the crash that occurred. 

Mr. Parsons. You were back in London when this crash came in 
the stamp business? 

Mr. HiLER. No. The crash occurred while I was in the South Sea 
Islands. At the same time, in Germany, there was a crash in the 
stamp business of another sort. There were issued a series of stamps 
called miniature sheets which were stamps issued, intead of sheets of 
many stamps, just 4 stamps or 1 stamp or 10 stamps in a small sheet, 
issued for the particular purpose of commemorating some historical 
event. ; 

These sheets grew enormously in popularity in the last few years. 
There was an actual boom in them. 

In 1937, also, it occurred that various countries in Europe which 
issued sets of these miniature sheets in restricted quantities secretly 
reprinted very large quantities after the value had gone way above 
the face value, as high as 1,000 percent above face value in a short 
time, because the quantities issued were strictly limited. They had 
not destroyed the plates. They reissued the stamps secretly and sold 
them to unscrupulous stamp dealers, you might say. 



ggg INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

When this fact became generally known, there was a collapse in 
the market for those stamps. Also, the catalog makers, who list in. 
their catalogs— such as Scott Stamp & Coin, and others— all the 
stamps ever issued in the world, refused to recognize these issues on 
account of the fact I just mentioned, because they took the view that 
they were not regular postage stamps. So, they refused to recognize 
them, and when that happened the market for those stamps com- 
pletely collapsed. I lost, in New York, several thousand dollars on 
account of the collapse, and in Germany 50,000 marks. 

Mr. Parsons. You say you were still in the South Sea Islands at 
the time the crash came? 

Mr. HiLER. Yes. 

Mr, Parsons. How did you get back to the States ? 

Mr. HiLER. I did not return to the States from the South Sea 
Islands. I Avent back to England through the States. I arrived in 
England in April 1938 and continued in business in spite of the 
severe setbacks. 

Mr. Parsons. Until when? 

Mr. HiLER. Until November or October 1938. Then I had fur- 
ther set-backs. Just before I took this trip to the South Sea Islands, 
my English manager died. Upon my return I hired a new manager 
who turned out to be dishonest. He absconded with the rest of the 
capital and the stock of stamps that were left in England. I had 
previously, on return from this trip, closed my New York office. 
I arrived there in April 1938 and then went to England, arriving in 
England in June 1938. 

I had, when this occurred, closed my English office. That left me 
just in control of my German office. The final straw, as we might 
say, occurred in September of 1938 when the German authorities 
confiscated my business there. That left me without any funds at 
all. I had to, with the little funds I had left, return to America, 
arriving in New York on November 2, 1938. I have not left this 
country since then. 

Mr. Parsons. You say that the German authorities confiscated 
your business? 

Mr. HiLER. Yes. 

]\Ir. Parsons. What did they do, tax it out of existence, or just 
take it over ? 

Mr. HiLER. They took it over, because they had issued a regula- 
tion which prevented me from — I had better go back a little bit 
earlier. When I first started doing business in Germany, I did not 
enter into any difficulties until I did it on a large scale. Then I was 
approached by representatives of the Government. It was brought 
out that I could not transfer any of my profits from the country 
whatsoever. I could do business there, but I could not transfer any 
funds out of the country. 

As you probably know, large firms like the Ford Motor Car Co., 
Standard Oil, and so on, cannot do so, either. 

I was going to close up the business there, but the German manager 
told me that it would be rather a hard load for him. He was mar- 
ried and had a baby. He felt that he had a very good idea. He 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 859 

agreed to the transference of my business interests to liim. As he 
was a German citizen, he would operate it as his own business. He 
agreed to transfer the profits to me, to my bank. That was his idea ; 
and although I had no control over the business, actually it was still 
my business, but in his name. 

Mr. Parsons. He was going to transfer the funds to the Bank of 
England ? 

Mr. HiLER. He was going to transfer the funds to me, in the Bank 
of England. He did so for several years, or for 2 years. Then the 
authorities — you might say it occurred this way: He left the corn- 
try in September 1938, on a trip to England. His passport had been 
taken by the military authorities because he was eligible for military 
service. I was in Paris at the time. He wanted to go to England to 
put over a large deal. He happened to walk into the Paris office, 
because he had heard of the sailing of a vessel that was making trips 
from Hamburg to England with no passports required. 

As you probably know, there were numerous vessels making such 
trips. He took a plane down to Hamburg, got on that vessel and 
went to England. When he returned, the military authorities arrested 
him. As you are aware, when the authorities in Germany do anything, 
they do a" very thorough job of it. When a person commits an act 
which they view with suspicion, they make a very thorough investiga- 
tion to see if there is any ulterior motive, or anything else behind 
the surface. They discovered he was a postage-stamp dealer, so they 
investigated his activities and when they discovered he was trans- 
ferring funds out of the country, they confiscated his business. Of 
course, that was equivalent to confiscating my business. 

Mr. Parsons. They really confiscated your business ? 

Mr. Hiler. That is right. 

Mr. Parsons. How much revenue were you getting during those 
2 years he was having the profits transferred to England ? 

"Mr. HiLER. A fairly large revenue, because in Germany, owing to 
currency restrictions, there was a great demand for the purchase of 
postage stamps. There was a great demand in Germany for stamps 
and very high prices were paid, for various reasons. One primary 
reason was that various people in Germany who wished to leave 
the country, such as persecuted races and other people who did not 
believe in Nazi government views, because of regulations preventing 
them from taking any funds out when they left the country, pur- 
chased postage stamps, and were able to get them out of the country 
in various ways. 

Some of them purchased stamps from the stamp dealers, who mailed 
them out to other countries, and when they arrived in those countries 
they sold them. Others made arrangements with stamp dealers 
whereby stamp dealers would arrange for a transfer. A particular 
individual in Germany would transfer 100,000 marks of their money 
to a stamp dealer, who would see to it that they would get so much 
English money for it, for the 100,000 marks, in England, when they 
arrived there. " In that way they overcame the restrictions which took 
all of their money away if they" left the country. A great number of 



860 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

German stamp dealers entered that business. My office never did anj^ 
of that business. It never entered into that type of business. These 
stamp dealers have all been arrested, and a large proportion of them 
are no longer living. 

Mr. Parsons. Are you married? 

Mr. HiLER. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. You say you came back to the United States in 1938 ? 

Mr. HiLER. November 2. 

Mr. Parsons. What have you been doing since? 

Mr. HiLER. During November and December I was living with my 
parents, in New Jersey, and was attempting to find someone to 
refinance me in the stamp business. Owing to unsettled world con- 
ditions, no matter who I approached, they felt at that time, stamps 
being a rather speculative business, as it was even in the best times, 
and war seeming imminent, they felt they could not invest any 
money in anything concerning foreign countries. I was unable to 
find further capital. 

In January I moved to New York City, and endeavored to find 
employment there. I endeavored to find employment in New York 
City, but I was unsuccessful. I will not say I could not have found 
employment there. At this time I was attempting to build up with 
the small capital and stock of stamps I had left in my business a 
little mail-order business in the United States. I started that in 
New York City. I moved to Florida in the middle of January 
because my wife, being an Australian, had never experienced any 
cold climate. It does not snow in Australia. Their winter is similar 
to Florida winter. So we went to Florida on account of her — not 
exactly on account of her health, but on account of the climate. 

Mr. Parsons. You expected to carry on your stamp business down 
there? 

]Mr. HiLER. Yes. Unfortunately, just the second month we were 
down there — I do not remember what month we ariived there, but 
we went in the middle of January, as I recall it, 1939. A short time 
after I was there — I do not remember the exact date — owing to a 
mistake of the Post Office Department, my mail-order business was 
completely disorganized. We moved our address and put in change- 
of-acldress cards. Then we did not move to that place. I put in a 
second set of change-of-address cards, nullifying the previous set. 
One set was put in the post box and the other set was given to the 
postman. He carried it for 3 days. The second set arrived at the 
post office before the first. lYhen the first set arrived, the mail was 
sent to that address,, this address, at which I never stayed, instead 
of the post office looking up to see what was wrong. They had my 
previous address registered at the post office, and they sent all mail 
back to the senders. 

For a full month I did not receive any returns on my stamps that 
had been sent out on approval. I sent stamps out on approval. 
They would purchase whatever stamps they wanted, and return the 
remainder of the stamps. 

At this time I was employed. When that happened, I got very 
disgusted with everything. As I said, it disorganized it. There- 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION ggX 

fore I abandoned it, completely, and concentrated on my work with 
the company by which I was employed. 

Mr. Parsons. What have you been doing since December 1939? 

Mr. HiLER. From March 1 to December 1939 I worked for the 
Fuller Brush Co. I started in as a salesman. In 2 months I was 
promoted to the position of field manager, which I held for 8 months. 

Mr. Parsons. Did you quit that company? 

Mr. Hiler. I left that company for three reasons. One reason 
was I felt there was no chance of adequate advancement. The sec- 
ond reason was I did not like the work. The third reason was I 
discovered I had made a mistake in coming to Florida, because my 
wife had contracted a malaria in the South Sea Islands. I had no 
idea of the extent of the prevalence of malaria in the Southern 
States. I felt and my wife felt that the sooner we got out of Florida 
the better it would be. 

I also discovered that opportunities in Florida are strictly limited. 
I was lucky to get the position I did get. 

]\Ir. Parsons. What position did you get when you left there? 

Mv. Hiler. I am sorry. I should have stated that I also left the 
Fuller Brush Co. because I had an offer from another company, the 
Standard Coffee Co., which I thought was going to be an excellent 
position. It was a position which in a short time should have made 
me branch manager of the company for the whole State of Florida. 
The plans, and so forth, the profit to be made, and what my earn- 
ings would be did not turn out at all. The plan that the companj' 
was putting into operation was a failure because there was a 2-week 
interval between the taking of the orders and the filling of those 
orders. Very many of the orders were canceled, and the plan did 
not work. 

During the 6 weeks I was with them, during the latter part of 
December and Januaiy, I made only about $12 a week,, so I left there 
in disgust. 

At that time, when I was looking for other work, my parents 
came down to Florida for a visit. 

Mr. Parsons. Let me interrupt you right there, 

;Mr. Hiler. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. I notice from the record here your father was at one 
time a very higldy paid man. 

Mr. Hiler. That is right. 

Mr. Parsons. In what Mork was he engaged ? 

Mr. Hiler. For 25 .years, or 20 years, he was in the silk business 
in New York City. He started as a silk salesman for H. R. Mallin- 
son Co. in New York. While he was a salesman for them, he studied 
and learned everything about the textile-designing end of the silk 
business. After being with them 10 years he brought out a series of 
designs called Arabian Nights, designs for women's print silk and 
cotton dresses. 

That series made him quite well known. He received an offer 
from another firm to become their stylist. Actually, he suggested 
that particular position. No other silk firm previously had had a 



362 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

man who supervised designs. He became the stylist for that com- 
pany at a very high sah\ry, and remained with them for some time. 
He left them and went with another firm, and then he finally accepted 
employment with a company with which you are no doubt all fa- 
miliar, the Susquehanna Silk Mills do., and received a very good 
contract, a 5-year contract. At that time he was earning $50,000 
a year salary plus $25,000 in percentage, which contract ran for 
5 years. 

The depression came, and the Susquehanna Silk Mills Co. went into 
receivership. The receivers called the contract void and his salary was 
reduced to $10,000 a year within a very short time. So he left the 
Susquehanna Silk Mills and entered the designing business on his own, 
formed his own designing studios, Hiler Studios, Inc., 1441 Broadway. 
He had to abandon that business in 1937 and since then he has not done 
any work whatsoever . 

Mr. Parsons. Does he have any savings, sufficient to take care of the 
family and to take care of you ? 

Mr. Hiler. He at the present time has no means of aiding me at all. 
He has just enough funds to take him until the end of this year. His 
health has been none too good. He hopes to find some position in the 
silk business again this fall. He is recuperating his health. 

Mr. Parsons. What have you been doing the past year? 

Mr. Hiler. When he came to Florida in January of this year he sug- 
gested that since I wanted to leave Florida and the opportunities were 
so limited there, I try an enterprise he had successfully done 25 years 
ago. He was a professional magician for a time 25 years ago. He 
had magic as a hobby as I had stamps as a hobby. He worked his w^ay 
through college, the latter part of his education — he was a graduate of 
Cornell — by giving performances, providing entertainment and per- 
forming tricks of magic for the college students. 

He traveled all over the United States and was very successful at it. 
When he married and when I came along, he abandoned that for a 
steady position in one spot instead of traveling. 

In January of this year I started out with my wife and baby who 
was born on September 7, to do that same work. I covered a large 
part of the country. I covered 11,000 miles in 5 months. I might say 
that I was not a failure, but the work just earned me enough to pay 
for expenses, because traveling great distances and having to live in 
tourist cabins was expensive. My expenses were so high, my earnings 
did not take care of much else. 

I attributed the fact that I was not able to make the sum he indicated 
I would make to the fact that 25 years ago the average college student 
was a rich man's son, whereas now it is not the case. The college stu- 
dents have very many things to use their money on, such as cars and 
so forth, and do not have the amount of money the college students used 
to have ; whereas my father was able to get never less than $5 a per- 
formance, and would sometimes get as high as $15, 1 was only able to 
get $1, and sometimes as high as $5. 

Mr. Parsons. Mr. Hiler, how long did it take you to learn magic? 

Mr. Hiler. I had also had magic as a hobby, as a side line to my 
stamps. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 863 

Mr. Parsons. You learned that from your father earlier? 

Mr, HiLER. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. What are you doing now ? 

Mr. HiLER. I reached Chicago because of the fact that I was travel- 
ing from Denver, Colo., where I did three performances, through 
Colorado, Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, and Wisconsin, and then came 
down to Northwestern University here in Evanston. That was the 
last college I could make this half of this year, because in June nat- 
urally they have their examinations and eveiything. So, I finished 
out to the end, and kept at this type of work. 

Mr. Parsons. You covered all of the States clear to the Rocky 
Mountains ? 

Mr. Hiler. Yes. I covered some of the Eastern States, the South- 
ern States, some Middle Western States, but I did not go further 
west than the Rockies. I thought when I arrived here in Chicago 
that I would have no difficulty in finding a position here. 

Mr. Parsons. That is what thousands of them think. 

Mr. Hiler. That is right. I thought the same thing. I thought 
that it being a great big city, in a prosperous section of the country, 
I would have no difficulty. I probably would have been able to get 
quite a number of positions. I would not say there are no positions 
here. I would rather say there are lots of positions if you happen 
to be the man for the job. 

EMPLOYMENT agencies, STATE AND PRIVATE 

I turned down about 20 positions, not necessarily because of earn- 
ings, but for several reasons. First, the good positions in the ma- 
jority of cases can only be secured through an employment agency. 
The employment agencies here in Chicago require large fees, ranging 
from $40 for a position that pays $100 a month, up to $75 for that 
same position. 

Mr. Parsons. That is a private employment agency you are refer- 
ring to now? 

Mr. Hiler. A private employment agency ; yes. 

Mr. Parsons. Did vou apply to the State agency? 

Mr. Hiler. I applied to the State agency ; yes. May I bring this 
out : As far as these State employment agencies are concerned— I do 
not know whether my opinion is anywhere near true — but as far as 
unskilled men are concerned, I feel as though they do not try to 
find the men work. Rather, they arrange for their obtaining relief. 

I applied, when I went to Florida, to the State relief employment 
agency. I registered, gave them all the information, and went back 
several times, but was not able to secure any position through them 
whatsoever. In Chicago here I applied for work and also to see if 
I was eligible for employment insurance. I was not eligible for it 
because my work in Florida had been mainly on commissions, com- 
missions on which no employment insurance had to be paid. 

Mr. Parsons. You did not receive any social security number at 
all? 



364 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. HiLER. Oh, yes, I had, in my position as field manager with 
the company, received an average of $60 a month, and the rest of my 
earnings were commissions on which no insurance was paid. As in 
one-quarter of the year I made a fairly high figure on the basis they 
compute eligibility for employment insurance, I was not eligible 
for it. I received a report back in Florida listing my earnings on 
the aggregate toward employment insurance. I was not able to 
afford it. 

I also did not receive any interviews or calls for work through the 
State employment agency, and with respect to the private employ- 
ment agencies, I did not have any means of paying the $40 to $75 
they asked for a job paying $100 a month. There were only 2 
private employment agencies — I went to about 15 — there were only 
'2. which offered a plan of time payments. One of them asked for 
one-third of the amount down and the rest to be paid in 6 weeks. 
Only at 1 would they allow me to pay after I got settled, by the 
week, and they stretched it out to around 6 weeks. 

Mr. Parsons. What are you doing now? 

Mr. HiLER. Just last week I secured a temporary position as sales- 
man for the Blue Star Auto Stores. I do not know whether it will 
be permanent or not. I have never done any of that type of work in 
a store. The type of work they want me to do is not only as a sales- 
man but also as a stock taker, inventory work, and so forth. 

Mr. Parsons. What is that supposed to pay you ? 

Mr. HiLER. That pays $18 a week. I work from 8 in the morning 
until 8 at night, and 9 o'clock at night on Thursday and Saturday 
nights, and I work on Sunday, too. 

Mr. Parsons. Where is your wife ? Is she with you ? 

Mr. HiLER. She is up at 811 West Lawrence Street. May I add 
something ? 

Mr. Parsons. Yes. 

Mr. HiLER. I was unable to take various positions because I had 
my car. I left Florida with a 1938 Oldsmobile sedan which I pur- 
chased from a finance company while employed by the Fuller Brush 
Co. That car was an asset while I was employed by the Fuller Brush 
Co., in fact, a necessity, and it was also a necessity while I was trav- 
eling, attempting to earn an income with my magic. When I 
arrived here it became a liability. I had $35 a month to pay on it 
every month. It cost me about $10 a week to have it and run it, and 
naturally I would have had to secure a position that would pay me 
at least $30 a week. 

I was unable to secure any position that would pay me that figure. 
I also would have had to pay an employment agency. In other words, 
if I had accepted any position that would have paid me $20, $25, or 
$30, where I had to pay an employment agency fee besides, before 
I could have caught up and paid those fees I would have lost my car, 
because I would have fallen behind too far in the payments. 

Two weeks ago I took the car back to Florida, returning it to the 
finance company. That was week before last. I returned to Chicago 
last week. I immediately secured a position, because then I no longer 
had to secure a position which would have paid me the rate of earn- 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 8^5 

ings which would have been necessitated by my retaining the car and 
continuing to make the payments on it. 

Mr. Parsons, Have you ever applied for any relief or W. P. A. 
work of any type or character? 

RESIDENCE STATUS 

Mr. HiLER. No: I have not. As I say, when I went to Florida I 
applied with the State employment agency, not for relief but for work, 
but received none. When I came to Chicago, I applied at the State 
employment agency for unemployment compensation and work, and 
received neither. 

The way we have been able to live since we have been in Chicago is 
that when I went to the British consulate general in Chicago here in 
regard to the fact that my wife has to leave this country by November 2 
of this year in order to reenter on an immigration visa — she entered 
on a visitor's visa — and I went to the British consulate general to see 
if there was any way by which we could either get the visitor's visa 
extended or arrange some way for her to remain in the country, but I 
found no way by which she can remain in this country and become a 
citizen. She has to leave. 

Mr. Parsons. That is right. Where is she planning to go ? 

Mr. HiLER. Windsor, Ontario, being the closest place. The British 
consulate inquired into our financial position and so forth. When we 
told him we were nearly out of money, that we had no prospects of a 
position, and we were practically out of funds, he referred me to the 
United Charities of Chicago. They have been splendid in assisting me 
in every way. They have advanced $15 a week ever since I have been 
in Chicago and have seen me every week and given me helpful 
information. 

They also contacted Florida to see if I was a resident of that State. 
Naturally not being a resident of Illinois, they wanted to see if I was a 
resident of Florida. I lived there over a year, so I considered myself 
a resident of Florida, but the Public Relations Commission — I am not 
sure whether that is the correct name — w^rote back saying they could 
not verify my residence there because certain landlords I had rented 
apartments from were not available ; they had moved, and they could 
not locate them. They suggested that as I had been in business in 
New York State and lived most of my life in New York State, I should 
return there, and they would not authorize my return to Florida. 
Therefore I am also a person without a permanent residence anywhere. 

Mr. Parsons. Did you see many migrants on the road when you were 
out traveling over the States ? 

Mr. HiLER. I cannot say that I did. I traveled in Georgia, South 
Carolina, North Carolina, Maryland, Virginia, Tennessee, Alabama, 
Mississippi, Louisiana, Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Colorado, 
Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, and Illinois. In those States I definitely do 
not remember at any time seeing any people migrating along the roads, 
you might say, in wagons or anything of that sort or old cars. I did 
not notice any at any time. That does not mean they do not migrate. 
I just did not see them. 



ggg INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. Parsons. You are a great believer in the American citizen hav- 
ing the right to migrate or to go anywhere he wants to seek work ? 

Mr. HiLER. I certainly am. 

Mr. Parsons. You would not want to stop migration entirely ? 

Mr. HiLER. No. I certainly would not. 

Mr. Parsons. I think that is all. Do you have any questions, 
Congressman Curtis ? 

Mr. Curtis. No. 

Mr. Parsons. Congressman Sparkman? 

Mr. Sparkman. I have a question. In order for your wife to come 
into this country on a regular immigration visa, would it be neces- 
sary for you to show that you are capable of supporting her? 

Mr. HiLER. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Is that true even though she is the wife of an 
American citizen? 

Mr. HiLER. Yes. That is what I am strongly worried about, be- 
cause it states in the regulations — I have filed a petition for her to 
become a citizen, in the first place. There I must assert wdiether I 
have ever had any relief at all, or ever been on State or public 
relief, or private relief, and also I must show that I am in a position 
where I can properly take care of her. I am wondering whether 
at that time I will have a permanent position and earnings sufficient, 
and funds sufficient to cover that. I certainly hope so. 

Mr. Parsons. You have given us quite a picture of what has been,, 
up to comparatively recently, a self-supporting migrant. 

Mr. HiLER. That is right. 

Mr. Parsons. There are thousands of that kind of cases. 

Mr. HiLER. Yes. I know that. 

Mr. Parsons. We had a case up in New York where a man made, 
for several years, from $5,000 to $10,000 annually, maintaining two 
homes, one in New England and one down in New York. Sud- 
denly he woke up one morning and found himself a broken man. 
He never has been able to get rehabilitated since. • 

Mr. HiLER. I know there are cases of that kind. 

Mr. Parsons. Are there any other questions ? 

Mr. Sparkman. Would it be possible to have your wife's visitor^s 
visa extended again ? 

Mr. HiLER. No. They have written, the last extension, that that 
would be the last extension they could make. When she first en- 
tered — that is, the last time she entered the United States on Novem- 
ber 2, 1938, she was allowed to stay 6 months. It was extended for 
another period of 6 months, and so on and so forth until this last 
extension until November 2. The reason for these various exten- 
sions was always that my wife was naturally going to have a baby, 
and she could not leave the country while the baby was so small. 
Now there is no reason why she should not leave the country. They 
have said that the extension they have just given in June of this 
year, which covers a period until November 2, will be the final one. 

Mr. Parsons. Are there any other questions? (No response.) 
You are excused, Mr. Hiler. Thank you very much. We appreciate 
the contribution you have made to our record. 

Mr. Hiler. Thank you. 

(Whereupon Mr. Hiler was excused.) 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION ggj 

TESTIMONY OF LEO M. LYONS, COMMISSIONER OF EELIEF, CHICAGO 
RELIEF ADMINISTRATION, CHICAGO, ILL. 

The Chairman. The next witness will be Mr. Leo M. Lyons. 

Mr. Parsons. Will you state your full name for the record, please, 
Mr. Lyons? 

Mr. Lyons. Leo M. Lyons. 

Mr. Parsons. You are executive secretary of the Illinois State 
Belief Commission? 

Mr. Lyons. I am appearing here as commissioner of relief for the 
city of Chicago, relative to the Chicago situation. 

Mr. Parsons. You are also still secretary of the Illinois State 
Relief Commission? 

Mr. Lyons. That is right, Mr. Jacoby submitted a report for 
the commission. 

(The report is as follows:) 

Statement bt Leo M. Lyons, Commissioner of Relief, Chicago Relief Admin- 
istration, Chicago, III. 

This statement of the problem confronting the Chicago Relief Administration 
as a result of interstate migration of destitute citizens has been prepared at the 
invitation of the representatives of the Congressional Committee on Interstate 
Migration of Destitute Citizens. 

The city of Chicago, because of its size and geographic situation, is con- 
fronted by a question as to the handling of the social and economic problems 
presented by migratory workers and their dependents. The Chicago Relief 
Administration has met this problem by maintaining a specialized service 
(called Transportation Service) to handle the cases of migratory persons and 
families. 

Under the former poor law of Illinois, prior to July 26, 1939, the local over- 
seer of the poor was charged with the duty of relieving needy persons and 
families in their jurisdiction, regardless of their legal residence. This humane 
objective of the poor law was embodied in the policies of the Chicago Relief 
Administration in handling cases of nonresident persons and families. Care 
was extended to nonresident young persons, women, and families upon the 
same basis as that extended to resiuencs. Care to uoiiresiilent unattached men 
over 25 years of age was extended on the same basis as that to resident men 
until September 1, 1937, when care to the nonresident unattached man was 
limited to 7 days as a general policy. However, in handling the individual case, 
Transportation Service was allowed to use discretion in further extension of 
necessary care. Provision was made for extension of care to the sick and aged, 
to those who had secured employment, and to seamen. 

While carrying the case for relief, it was the policy for Transportation 
Service to assist nonresident persons in utilizing the community resources and 
various public services to further their social adjustment in this community. 
Employable nonresident persons were referred to Illinois State Employment 
Service for registration for work and for possible unemployment-compensation 
benefits. The Chicago public schools accepted the children on the same basis 
as resident children. Medical care, either free or at the expense of the Chicago 
Relief Administration, was available if needed. The younger persons were 
referred to National Youth Administration or Civilian Conservation Corps, 
according to the individual situation. In the meantime, Transportation Service 
carried on correspondence with the place of origin to determine whether or 
not the nonresident person or family retained legal residence in the other 
community and whether or not it was feasible to return them there. If the 
nonresident person or family continued dependent, and if an authorization to 
return them to legal residence was received, the social advisability of returning 
them to their legal residence was considered. If it was determined that they 



g03 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

should return, transportation to legal residence was offered and further relief 
denied. If it was determined that it was socially advisable for them to remain 
in Chicago, the employable member of the family was I'eferred to Work Projects 
Administration for certification and the case accepted for such extended care 
as was needed. 

With the passage of the 3-year residence law by the Illinois Legislature, on 
July 26, 1939, the duty of the overseer of the poor to relieve needy persons was 
so qualified that only needy persons who resided in some one of the 1,455 gov^ 
ernmental units of Illinois for 3 years immediately preceding application could 
be given assistance. The Chicago Relief Administration issued its Ofiicial 
Bulletin No. 1123 on November 1, 1939, providing instructions to its offices as to 
eligibility requirements under this law. These instructions were based upon 
the opinion of the attorney general of Illinois as to the meaning of the law. 
It was his opinion that the continued eligibility on the basis of residence of 
persons in a pauper state on July 26, 1939, was not to be questioned. Appli- 
cations subsequent to July 26, 1939, were reviewed for eligibility under the 
3-year residence law, cases of questionable eligibility were referred to Trans- 
portation Service. The official memorandum of January 2, 1940, supplementing 
Official Bulletin No. 1123, provided instructions to Transportation Service as 
to policy and procedure under the 3-year residence law. 

Pending determination of eligibility under the 3-year residence law, the 
following functions were among those assigned to Transportation Service by 
this bulletin : 

"To receive and act upon applications from persons living in Chicago whose 
legal residence has not been determined. * * * 

"To assist nonresident applicants so far as possible to obtain needed assist- 
ance and services from other agencies and local community resources." 

The private agencies in the community immediately felt the impact of the 
need of persons found ineligible under tliese instructions as to residence 
requirements for relief eligibility under the 3-year law. It was necessary for 
them, through the council of social agencies, to seek an additional allocation 
from the commiuiity fund, as the existing need was far greater than the avail- 
able funds. The private agencies and Transportation Service have cooperated 
wholeheartedly in handling this difficult problem, with relatively small re- 
sources as compared to tlie magnitude of the problem. Transportation Service 
has made the initial determination of eligibility for public relief in question- 
able residence cases and has given referral service to the appropriate com- 
munity agency for the persons ineligible for relief under the law. Employable 
unattached women are referred directly to central placement office of the 
Illinois State Employment Service. The qualified youth are referred to 
National Youth Administration and Civilian Conservation Corps to make direct 
application for these benefits. Unattached persons who are ill are referred to 
Oak Forest Service (the county infirmary) for necessary care, and Ti-ansporta- 
tion Service carries on the residence investigation. If the illness seems acute, 
the police convey the person to Cook County Hospital. Private shelters are 
used for special cases. Family cases in which the need is emergent and which 
the relatives are unable to carry are referred to the appropriate private family 
agency for aid. Through these cooperative efforts, the community agencies 
have sought to lessen the hardships falling to the lot of the migratory persons 
and families living in Chicago. 

The following classification of some case situations arising under the present 
interpretation of the Illinois 3-year i-esidence law reflects the harshness of the 
operation of the law not only in its treatment of newcomers to Illinois but also 
to Illinois residents who have moved across local governmental unit boundary 
lines : 

1. "immediate" cases 

A. Applications of persons who have lived a considerable time in Chicago (at 
least in excess of 3 years) and have established a residence in another govern- 
mental unit for only a brief period, so that they are now ineligible for assistance 
both in Chicago and the governmental unit wherein they are presently residing. 

B. Applications of persons who have resided for a considerable period in some 
other governmental unit in Illinois (at least in excess of 3 years) and who have 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION gQQ 

established residence in Cliicago for only a short period, so tliat they are ineligible 
for assistance both in Chicago and also the previous governmental unit wherein 
they formerly resided. 

C Persons who have lived in Chicago for a considerable time (at least in excess 
of 3 years) and who have established themselves for a brief period in some 
locality outside the State and whose return cannot be presently authorized under 
the 3-year residence law. 

2. BRIEF "BKEAICS" IN RESIDENCE WITHIN THE PAST 3 YEARS 

A. Persons who have had residence in a single governmental unit for a con- 
siderable period of time (at least in excess of 3 years) but have lived for a brief 
period outside of this unit, so that they are ineligible on a present application 
under the 3-year residence law. 

B. Persons whose return has been authorized from other States within the 
past 3 years, but who are now ineligible under the present 3-year residence law. 

3. PERSONS WHO WOULD HAVE BE^EN ELIGIBLE FOR DIRECT RELIEF ACCORDING TO THE OLD 
LAW ON JULY 26, 1939, BUT WHO WERE NOT RECEII\nNG EELIEP AT THAT TIME 

A. Persons whose relief would have been chargeable to another governmental 
unit. 

B. Persons whose relief would have been chargeable to Chicago, but whose 
residence does not extend for a period of 3 years. 

Notwithstanding the admirable and united efforts of both the public and private 
agencies to meet the emergent need, it has been our experience that their total 
resources available for this purpose are inadequate to provide needed care to 
migrants. Only the more serious emergencies can be met. On the basis of our 
experience, we believe that migration is a national problem which must be solved 
by action initiated by the Federal Government, in collaboration with State and 
local authorities. 

As for the social characteristics of the migrants coming to the attention of 
the Chicago Relief Administration, unfortunately no formal study has been 
made of the family cases. It is our impression, however, that they represent 
a young and employable group. There is a history of a high turn-over of cases 
at Transportation Service, which might lead to the conclusion that migrants do 
not lack aggressiveness in their endeavor to plan for themselves. 

In the study which was made of the nonresident unattached man over 25 
years of age applying for relief from the Chicago Relief Administration from 
September 1 to December 21, 1938, the average case studied was characterized 
as follows : 

"He is an unskilled, apparently healthy, 32-year-old native white laborer from 
the Middle West looking for a job. He had had a job; in 1938^ but had lost it 
after the work was completed. He had been without work about 26 out of the 
past 60 months. 

"He is unmarried, has a grammar-school education, is not an active church 
member, and has had no military experience. He is not a transient in the 
popular sense of the word, as he has had less than 1 year experience on the 
road. He has relatives and friends as resources." 

The following tables are self-explanatory and may serve as indications of the 
extent of the recognized need of migratory persona and families under the 
former residence law of Illinois and under the current 3-year residence law. 
In considering the tables it will be noted that the reduction in numbers of 
persons eligible occurred soon after November 1, 1939, following release of 
instructions as to the interpretation of the 3-year residence law. The statis- 
tical count of "no applications" from November 1939 through January 1940 is 
misleading as to the extent of the problem in those months, inasmuch as the 
office capacity was greatly exceeded with tlie institution of the Chicago Relief 
Administration policy under the 3-year residence law. Hundreds of unattached 
persons were turned away at the door with no official count of their numbers. 

It should also be pointed out that cases of persons and families found in 
need but ineligible for relief upon the basis of residence were accepted by- 
Transportation Service for issuance of Federal surplus foods from December 



870 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



1939 to July 1, 1940. (On July 1, 1940, intake was closed for applications for 
surplus commodities only because of the promulgation of the food-stamp plan 
in which a requirement for participation is eligibility for food relief.) These 
cases were carried at Transportation Service until June 1940 when Surplus 
Commodity Only cases were transferred to Work Service of the Chicago Relief 
Administration. „ . , • 

The following three sets of tables give statistical information under major 

headings of — . ^ . , , ,„_ 

A. Relief applications — Transportation Service (covering calendar years 19d7, 

1938, 1939, and 1940 to date). ^ -r 

B. Number of home-relief cases active at Transportation Service from Jan- 
uary 1937 through June 1940, with commitments. 

C. Return transportation statistics for the calendar years 1938, 1939, and 

1940 to date. ^ , . t , c ^^i *■ a 
Table 1 : Number of cases and persons returned to Legal Settlement and 

Enumeration of Expenditures Involved. 

Table 2 : Number of persons returned to their legal settlement, in the order 
of their home States and countries. 

Table 3: Number of persons returned to legal settlement by States and 
countries in order of frequency. 

Relief applications — Transportation Service 

1940 



Month 



January.. 
February. 

March 

April 

May 

June 

July 



Total, 7 months- 



SHELTER 



January.. 
February. 

March 

April 

May 

June 

fuly 



Total, 7 months- 



Number 
of appli- 
cations 



215 
203 
275 
324 
408 
358 
554 

2,367 



Received 
or referred 



936 
778 
586 
447 
324 
196 



4,105 



Rejected, 

withdrawn, 

or referred 

out 



380 
462 
640 
640 
412 
22S 
174 



2,936 



92 



Granted 
relief or 
surplus 
commodi- 
ties only 



189 
22f5 
37 1 
435 
213 
141 
109 

1,687 



92 



Net num- Total cases 
ber of cases receiving 
open dur- I home 
ing month relief ' 



564 
398 
880 
1,131 
1.129 
930 
614 



6,037 



508 
574 
652 
723 
645 
514 
491 



282 



•Including those who received shelter care before home relief during month. 



«.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTINS OFFICE: 1940 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Relief applications — Transportation Service — Continued 

1939 



871 



Month 


Number 
of appli- 
cations 


Received 

or referred 

in 


Rejected, 

withdrawn, 

or referred 

out 


Granted 
relief or 
surplus 
commodi- 
ties only 


Net num- 
ber of cases 
open dur- 
ing month 


Total cases 

receiving 

home 

relief 




268 
249 
aoo 
224 
328 
281 
215 
243 
175 
147 
209 
164 


272 
228 
256 
253 
294 
356 
272 
244 
155 
208 
535 
580 


87 
61 
146 

82 
105 
121 
134 
108 
100 

74 
178 
235 


151 

137 

158 

143 

195 

206 

199 

171 

76 

132 

52 

92 


678 
763 
816 
807 
992 
976 
907 
883 
741 
714 
624 
512 


625 


February 


691 
742 




715 




907 




875 


July 


826 




779 


September - 


677 




660 




573 




437 






Total, 12 months 


2,859 


3,653 


1,431 


1,712 


9,413 


8,507 


SHELTER 


659 
548 
723 
725 
735 
631 
558 
389 
356 
332 
11 


600 
599 
733 
933 

898 
784 
792 
632 
521 
505 
42 
55 




600 
599 
733 
933 
898 
784 
792 
632 
521 
505 
42 
55 


1,211 

1,172 

1,347 

1,619 

1,497 

1,339 

1,264 

1,110 

839 

785 

388 

142 


































July 














































5,667 


7,094 




7,094 


12, 713 















406 
372 
309 
221 
136 
210 
237 
257 
255 
242 
220 
235 


142 
187 
194 
87 
50 
141 
85 
80 
108 
79 
100 
124 


239 

210 
196 
127 
76 
103 
193 
136 
175 
111 
116 
133 


641 

887 
898 
762 
668 
679 
700 
640 
604 
564 
556 
528 


762 






809 






830 






654 






571 






558 


July . - 




617 






554 






534 






495 






475 






458 








Total, 12 months - 




2,890 


1,242 


1,712 


7,448 


6, 7.59 








SHELTER 




784 
654 
955 
1,312 
657 
481 
619 
698 
496 
462 
586 
620 




784 
654 
955 
1,312 
657 
481 
619 
698 
496 
462 
586 
620 


1,258 

1,160 

1,331 

1,955 

1,316 

943 

979 

1,003 

966 

847 

1,013 

1,240 


















April - -- 




















Julv 












































Total, 12 months 




8,324 




8,324 


14,011 













260370— 40— pt. ^ 



872 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



Relief applications — Transportation Service — Continued 

1937 



Month 


Number 
of appli- 
cations 


Received 

or referred 

in 


Rejected, 

withdrawn, 

or referred 

out 


Granted 
relief or 
surplus 
commodi- 
ties only 


Net num- 
ber of cases 
open dur- 
ing month 


Total cases 

receiving 

home 

relief 






250 
258 
335 
289 
291 
348 
255 
306 
152 
212 
340 
407 


134 

127 

103 

106 

202 

103 

72 

215 

56 

98 

96 

111 


147 
146 
203 
181 
153 
175 
162 
13S 
120 
116 
173 
244 


842 

1,006 

1,082 

1,123 

906 

865 

800 

743 

683 

674 

633 

708 


788 






918 






985 






976 






768 






708 


July 




668 






619 






564 






539 






524 






650 








Total, 12 months 




3,443 


1,423 


1,958 


10, 065 


8,707 








SHELTER 




948 
562 
831 
756 
716 
601 
420 
274 
292 
526 
840 
975 




521 
341 
555 
321 
559 
601 
420 
274 
292 
526 
840 
975 


992 

1,143 

1,128 

1,198 

866 

1,167 

895 

638 

570 

764 

1,053 

1,354 










































July 


























































7,741 




6,225 


11,768 













'Number of home relief cases active at Tratispoi'tation Service from January 
1937 through June 19-lfO, tvith commitments 



Month 


Cases 


Commit- 
ments 


Month 


Cases 


Commit- 
ments 


1937 








19.37 








January... . _ 




788 


$23, 775. 96 


December: 








February. .... 


918 
985 
976 


28, 170. 09 
29, 766. 15 
24. 302. 17 


Interstate 

Intrastate. 

Chicago residents... 


.. 436 
__ 148 
.. 66 


650 




March . - 








May: 




$15,117.55 


Interstate 


.. 646 






1938 








Intrastate 


__ 34 






January; 








Chicago residents... 


.. 88 






Interstate 


.. 500 










768 


22, 051. 65 


Intrastate 


__ 190 






June: 








Chicago residents... 


._ 72 






Interstate 


.. 576 











762 


21,949.85 


Chicago residents. _- 


.. 132 






February: 












708 


16, 819. 60 


Interstate 


_. 527 






July: 








Intrastate 


_- 213 






Interstate 


.. 531 






Chicago residents... 


.. 68 






Intrastate 


-- 60 










809 


23, 366. 39 


Chicago residents.-. 


.. 77 






March: 












668 


18, 680. 87 


Interstate 


.. 527 






August: 








Intrastate 


__ 216 






Interstate ... 


.. 462 






Chicago residents... 


._ 87 






Chicago residents... 


.. 157 








• — — 


830 


24, 598. 10 






619 


16, 367. 20 


April: 








September: 








Interstate 


399 






Interstate 


._ 412 






Intrastate 


.- 178 






Intrastate. 


.. 107 






Chicago residents... 


.- 77 






Chicago residents... 


.- 45 










654 


17, 903. 55 






564 


12, 625. 13 


May: 








October: 








Interstate 


.. 337 






Interstate 


.. 381 






Intrastate 


.- 166 






Intrastate 


.. 113 






Chicago residents. .- 


.. 68 






Chicago residents... 


.. 45 










571 


14, 589. 44 






539 


10,449.47 


June: 








November: 








Interstate. 


.. 336 






Interstate 


._ 383 






Intrastate 


.. 160 






Intrastate 


.. 114 






Chicago residents... 


.. 62 






Chicago residents.. 


.. 47 


544 


13, 390. 04 






558 


13,521.19 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



87a 



Number of home relief cases active at Transportation Service from Jannartf 
1937 through June 19)0, tmth commitments — Continued 



Month 



1938— Continued 
July: 

Interstate 395 

Intrastate 148 

Chicago residents 74 

August: 

Interstate 348 

Intrastate 151 

C h icago residents 55 

September: 

Interstate 328 

Intrastate 156 

Chicago residents 50 

October: 

Interstate 287 

Intrastate 147 

Chicago residents 61 

November: 

Interstate 274 

Intrastate 136 

Chicago residents 65 

December: 

Interstate 266 

Intrastate 149 

Chicago residents 43 

1939 
January: 

Interstate 286 

Intrastate 272 

Chicago residents 67 



Cases 



617 



475 



625 



Commit- 
ments 



$14, 026. 13 



16, 132. 13 



13, 731. 05 



12, 334. 57 



13, 036. 08 



12, 378. 53 



13, 748. 45 



Month 



1939— Continued 

February 

March 

April: 

Interstate 335 

Intrastate 270 

Chicago residents 110 



May 

June 

JuJy: 

i Intrastate 336 

Interstate 294 

Chicago residents 37 



August 

September. 

October 

November, 
December.. 



January. - 
February- 

March 

April 

May 

June 



Cases 



691 
742 



715 
733 



608 
559 
548 
442 
322 



398 
455 
534 
614 
535 
431 



Commit- 
ments 



$18, 675. 2S 
19, 279. 56 



18,844.72' 
17, 203. 09 
16, 620. 3$ 



12, 638. 44 

13, 722. 81 
11,584.41 
12, 155. 41 
11, 140.6t 

7, 624. IS 



11, 027. I* 
13, 886. 58. 
16, J38.6& 
18, 111.2& 
16, 206.8S> 
12,703.9*. 



Number of shelter and parkicay lodge cases active at Transportation Sermce 
from January 1937 through October 1939 



1937 C'ase.s 

January 992 

February 1, 143 

March 1, 228 

April 1. 198 

May: 

Interstate 742 

Intrastate 7 

Chicago residents 117 



866 



June ; 



Interstate 1, (MG 

Chicago residents 121 



1,167 



July 



Interstate 758 

Intrastate 5 

Chicago residents 132 



895 



1937 — Continued Casesf 
August : 

Interstate 51^ 

Chicago residents 119 



63» 



September : 

Interstate 455' 

Intrastate 10 

Chicago residents 10& 



570 



October : 

Interstate 63S» 

Intrastate M 

Chicago residents 111 



TSf 



November : l, 053}. 

December l, 354 



874 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



Number of shelter and parkway lodge cases active at Transportation Service 
from January 1937 through October 1939 — Contimied 
1938 Cases 

January 1. 258 

February 1, 160 

March 1. 331 

April 1, 955 

May 1, 316 

June 943 



July : 

Interstate 844 

Intrastate 1 

Chicago I'esidents 133 



978 



August : 

Interstate 

Intrastate 

Chicago residents- 



862 

4 

137 



1,003 



1938— Continued 
November : 

Interstate 

Intrastate 

Chicago residents 



Cases 

865 

10 

138 



1,013 



September 966 



October : 

Interstate 

Intrastate 

Chicago residents- 



713 

1 

133 



847 



December 1, 240 

1939 
January : 

Interstate 1, 0a5 

Intrastate 3 

Chicago residents 143 



1,211 



February 1, 172 

March 1, 347 



April : 

Intrastrate , 14 

Interstate 1,456 

Chicago residents 149 



1,619 

May 1, 671 

June 1, 515 

July 1, 423 

August 1, 281 

September 957 

October 897 



Table I. — Number of cases and persons returned to legal settlement during 1940 
and emimeration of expenditures involved— Chicago Relief Administration — 
Transportation Service 





Average 

cost per 

case 


Months 




Total 


January 


February 


March 


April 


May 






5 

9 

$102. 34 

93.84 

5.50 

3.00 


1 

2 


2 
5 




1 

1 


1 








1 


Total 


$20. 47 








$14. 70 
2.00 
2.00 


$47. 88 
2.50 




$15. 65 


$15. Rl 








1.00 








1.00 















Table II. — Number of persons returned in 19JfO to their legal settlements in the 
order of their home States and countries — Chicago Relief Administration — • 
Transportation Service 



State : 



Alabama _ 
Arkansas. 



Total Total 

persons State : persons 

3 Mississippi 2 

1 Mexico 3 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



875 



Table III. — Number of persons retio'ned to their legal settletnent 'by States and 
countries in order of frequency 

Num'ber of 
State : persons 

Arkansas 1 

Mexico 3 



'Number of 
persons 



State : 

Alabama 3 

Mississippi 2 



Table I. — Number of cases and persons returned to legal settlement during 1939 
and enumeration of expenditures involved — Chicago Relief Administration — 
Transportation Service 





Average 

cost per 

case 


Months 




Total 


January 


February 


March 


April 


May 


Cases - 




355 

584 

$7, 924. 69 

7, 354. 89 

52.20 

386. 60 

63.50 

68.00 


46 
81 


32 

54 


34 
54 


24 
49 


40 


Persons - -- - 




62 


Total 


$22. 32 




Train fare 


$1, 189. 07 
4.40 
59.60 
6.00 


$751. 39 

1.00 

38.25 

8.00 


$617. 76 

.75 

39.75 

3.00 


$536. 65 

.50 

33.25 

6.00 


$824. 38 






16.15 






31.50 






5.50 






























Months- 


Continued 








June 


July 


August 


Septem- 
ber 


October 


Novem- 
ber 


Cases . . 


40 

76 

$823. 72 


25 
39 

$397. 59 
2.00 
18.50 
6.00 
8.00 


47 
74 
$867. 76 
26.65 
57.40 
11.00 
20.00 


35 

41 

$533. 21 


27 

58 

$710. 63 

.50 

26.35 

10.00 


5 




6 


Train fare 


$102. 73 




.25 




46.25 

5.00 

33.00 


31.50 
3.00 
7.00 


4.25 

















Table II. — Number of persons returned in 1939 to their legal settlements in the 
order of their home States and countries — Chicago Relief Administration — ■ 
Transportation Service 

State: Totalpersons 



Alabama 23 

Arizona 

Arkansas 19 

California 24 

Colorado 3 

Connecticut 4 

Delaware 

District of Columbia 5 

Florida 7 

Georgia 16 

Illinois 33 

Indiana 15 

Iowa 11 

Idaho 

Kansas 9 

Kentucky l 22 

Louisiana 38 

Maine 

Maryland 3 

Massachusetts 6 

Michigan 19 

Minnesota 7 

Mississippi 52 

Missouri 41 

Montana 2 

Nebraska 1 

New Hampshire 



State— Continued. Totalpersons 

New Jersey 15 

New Mexico 

New York 36 

Nevada 

North Carolina 7 

North Dakota 

Ohio 28 

Oklahoma 4 

Oregon 2 

Pennsylvania 31 

Rhode Island 

South Carolina 2 

South Dakota 

Tennessee 30 

Texas 29 

Utah 1 

Vermont 

Virginia 4 

Wasliington 7 

West Virginia 9 

Wisconsin 9 

Wyoming 

Country: 

Germany 4 

Scotland 5 

Canada 1 

Mexico 



•876 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



Table III. — Number of persons returned in 1939 to their legal settlement hy 
States and countries in order of frequency — Chicago Relief Administration, 
Transportation Service 

Xumber 
State: of persons 

Mississippi 52 

Missouri 41 

Louisiana 38 

New York 36 

Illinois 33 

Penasylvania 31 

Tennessee 30 

Texas 29 

Ohio 28 

California 24 

Alabama 23 

Kentucky 22 

Arkansas 19 

Michigan 19 

Georgia 16 

Indiana 15 

New Jersey 15 

West Virginia 9 

Wisconsin 9 

Kansas 9 



State — Continued. 

Florida _ ._ _ 


Number 
of persons 

7 


Minnesota 

North Carolina 


7 

.-- -- 7 


Washington 

Massachusetts 

District of Columbia 


7 

6 

. -__ 5 


Connecticut 

Oklahoma 


4 

. - - 4 


Virginia. _ 


4 


Colorado _ . . 


.- ._ 3 


Maryland. _ 


. ._ 3 


Montana . . 


... - 2 


Oregon _ _ _ 


2 


South Carolina 

Nebraska _- 


2 

1 


Utah. 


1 


Country: 

Scotland _ 


5 


Germany 


4 


Mexico __ . _ 


3 


Canada 1 


1 



Table I. — Number of cases and persons returned to legal settlement during 1938 
and enumeration of expenditures involved— Chicago Relief Administration, 
Transportation Service 





Average 

cost per 

ease 


Months 




Total 


January 


February 


March 


April 


May 


Cases - - 




529 

970 

$13, 046. 10 

12, 278. 00 

14.30 

644. 55 

109. 25 


49 
93 


51 
114 


72 
162 


38 
82 


24 






45 


Total 


$24.66 






$1, 257. 16 

2.00 

62.25 

18.50 


$1, 336. 55 


$1,684.73 

2.50 

90.15 

6.00 


$741. 79 

.60 

37.15 

7.00 


$500. 71 






2.90 






79.80 
10.00 


28.00 






5.00 

















Months 










June 


July 


August 


Septem- 
ber 


October 


Novem- 
ber 


Decem- 
ber 




27 

52 

$566. 20 

2.00 

39.75 

15.75 


42 

74 

$803.69 

1.50 

40.25 

9.00 


49 
91 

$1,421.70 

.75 

85.00 

16.00 


53 

70 

$904. 55 

1.50 

59.25 

5.00 


49 

71 

$1, 357. 86 


41 

64 

$895.93 


34 




52 




$807. 13 




.55 




43.75 
6.00 


46.25 
3.00 


32.95 




8.00 







INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



877 



TABI.B II. — Nitmher of persons returned in 1938 to their legal settlements in the 
order of their home States and countries — Chicago Relief Administration- 
Transportation Service 



Total 

State: ?«"""» 

Alabama 48 

Arizona 5 

Arkansas 20 

California 49 

Colorado 18 

Connecticut 4 

Delaware 

District of Colunibia 2 

Florida 16 

Georgia 10 

Illinois 59 

Indiana 27 

Iowa 9 

Idaho 7 

Kansas 24 

Kentucky 16 

Louisiana 29 

Maine 

Maryland 3 

Massachusetts 1 

Michigan 47 

Minnesota 25 

Mississippi 73 

Missouri 50 

Montana 10 

New Hampshire 1 



Total 
State— Continued. persons 

New Jersey 15 

New Mexico 1 

New York 47 

Nevada 

Nebraska 14 

North Carolina 6 

North Dakota 4 

Ohio 36 

Oklahoma 12 

Oregon 4 

Pennsylvania 33 

Rhode Island 4 

South Carolina 

South Dakota 2 

Tennessee 41 

Texas 92 

Utah 4 

Vermont 1 

Virginia 8 

Washington 28 

West Virginia 6 

Wisconsin 30 

Wyoming 

Country: 

Germany 3 

Scotland 6 



Table III. — Number of persons returned in 1938 to their legal settlement by 
States and countries in order of frequency — Chicago Relief Administration — 
Transportation Service 



Nuvibtr 
State: of persons 

Texas . 92 

Mississippi 73 

Illinois 59 

Pennsylvania 53 

Missouri 50 

California 49 

Alabama 48 

Michigan 47 

New York 47 

Tennessee 41 

Ohio 36 

Wisconsin 30 

Louisiana 29 

Washington 28 

Indiana 27 

Minnesota 25 

Kansas 24 

Arkansas 20 

Colorado 18 

Florida 16 

Kentucky 16 

New Jersey 15 

Nebraska 14 



Number 
State: "/ versons 

Oklahoma 12 

Georgia 10 

Montana 10 

Iowa 9 

Virginia 8 

Idaho 7 

North Carolina 6 

West Virginia 6 



5 
4 
4 
4 
4 
4 
3 
2 
2 
1 
1 
1 
1 

6 
Germany 3 



Arizona. 

Connecticut 

North Dakota 

Oregon 

Rhode Island 

Utah 

Maryland 

District of Columbia- 
South Dakota 

Massachusetts 

New Hampshire 

Vermont 

New Mexico 

Country: 

Scotland 



17; 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



In comparing the figures on total cases receiving home relief, included in the 
table for relief applications with the figures showing home relief cases with com- 
mitments, the discrepancy in number is caused by the difference in interpretation 
of the status of the Parkway Lodge cases. 

Beginning in Rlay 1939 the Parkway Lodge cases were considered to be receiv- 
ing home relief. Previous to this they were included in the shelter count. 

Since no Parkway Lodge commitments are charged to Transportation Service 
they are eliminated in the table of home relief cases with commitments. 

TESTIMONY OF LEO M. LYONS^Resumed 

Mr. Parsons. Yes. I liave known Mr. Lyons for a good many years, 
and I know he has given a lot of thought and study to this problem. 
Congressman Ciu-tis, I believe you have Mr. Lyons' case assigned to 
you. 

Mr. Curtis. Mr, Lyons, we have gone over your statement that has 
been submitted for the record. This being a Nation-wide investigation 
conducted while Congress is in session, we will have to rely upon the 
written record, but there are a few questions I would like to ask you. 

RELIEF IN CHICAGO PRIOR TO POOR LAW OF JULY 19 39 

What was the policy of the administration of relief in Chicago with 
regard to migratory persons and families prior to this poor law passed 
by the legislature in July 1939 ? 

* Mr. Lyons. The general policy was to treat migrants as other appli- 
cants were treated, or as residents were treated, making provision, so 
far as possible, for the return of persons to their place of legal resi- 
dence. Possible exceptions to that were the single unattached employ- 
able individuals. 

For some time we restricted that period to approximately 7 days. 
Where it was evident that persons were coming in primarily for the 
purpose of seeking employment, we felt that opportunity certainly 
ought to be granted. However, at tlie same time, we felt we ought not 
to develop a program which would cause an accumulation of large 
numbers of employable persons, and thereby further flood the labor 
market. 

Mr. Curtis. Under those policies, what was the extent of the non- 
resident problem as indicated by the number of persons applying at 
your intake department, and the number of cases extended relief dur- 
ing the average month ? 

Mv. Lyons. That is covered, I believe, in the report. For example, in 
1937 the records show^ that 3,443 family cases were received and 7,741 
shelter cases, or single individuals. In 1938 the records show 2,890 
family cases received and 8, 324 shelter cases. In 1939 there were 3,653 
family cases and 7,094 shelter cases, or an average, approximately, of 
800 to 900 cases per month. 

]Mr. Curtis. From the standpoint of migration, what is the signifi- 
cance of your statistics regarding nonresidents returned to their legal 
residence prior to July 1939^ 

Mr. Lyons. I think the significant thing, as is pointed out in the 
report, is that of some 970 cases which were returned to their place of 
legal residence, 59 of those returned to places of legal residence in the 
State which indicates that the problem is one of interstate rather than 
intrastate migration. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 879 

Mr. Curtis. Did you have much trouble getting these people to re- 
turn to other States ? 

Mr. Lyons. No. I think in general we have had a very cooperative 
working relationship in returning these people. 

NEED FOR UNIFORM SETTLEMENT L.\WS 

Mr. Curtis. Is there need for farther uniformity among States in 
their requirements ? 

Mr. Lyons. Well, it seems that there should be a uniform settle- 
ment law and uniform method of meeting the needs of persons in 
these various categories. I am convinced that people do not migrate 
because of relief. People go to better their conditions, because of 
their unemployment. Therefore it would seem, as was pointed out 
in earlier discussion here, that some plan should be developed, and 
I think through employment and employment opportunities, to pro- 
vide for the needs of the persons where they are, and not force them 
to leave their localities in order to seek, perhaps, better opportuni- 
ties — in their opinion, at least — for employment. 

I think employment is the factor that causes people to migrate, 
not because people want to move, and not because they want better 
relief from some other community. I am convinced that employ- 
ment is the greatest factor that causes people to migrate. 

jMr. Curtis. Do you have any ligures with respect to the nonresi- 
dent relief clients you have taken care of, as to where they came from, 
whether they were unemployed city or town dwellers, or whether 
they were people forced oif the soil? 

Mr. Lyons. I do not believe our figures would indicate that. At 
least there is nothing readily at hand indicating the sources from 
which thej came. 

Mr. Curtis. Perhaps both factors would enter into it? 

Mr. Lyons. I think in all likelihood, both factors. I think our 
migratory laborer will be that type of person who works with a 
construction gang on the railroad, or who perhaps works in the 
harvest fields, traveling to and fro. 

ILLINOIS POOR LAW OF JULY 19 39 

Mr. Curtis. We have said something about the Illinois poor law, 
or the amendment to it passed by the legislature in July 1939. 

Mr. Lyons. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. It has been mentioned by several of the witnesses. 

Mr. Lyons. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. What were the significant points to that law? 

Mr. Lyons. Well, the part that is causing the most difficulty, and 
has been the most difficult of interpretation is the one providing that 
an applicant for relief must have been residing three years in the 
municipality immediately preceding his application for relief. 

Mr. Curtis. What brought about the enactment of that, Mr. Lyons? 
What was in back of it? 



g§Q INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

ISIr. Lyons. In my opinion, it was a desire on the part of some 
local overseers of the poor in the State of Illinois to restrict the 
movement of people into the State, or into localities, and therefore 
this legislation was drafted. I think it was not for the purpose of 
affecting the State resident as the law now does, but rather to affect 
those persons coming in from other States. 

Mr. Parsons. Did the relief commission recommend such a law? 

Mr. Lyons. The relief commission did not. It had nothing to do 
with the drafting of the legislation. 

Mr. Curtis. From your experience, how adequate are the resources 
of public and private agencies in the community in meeting the 
needs of migratory destitute persons? 

Mr. Lyons. There are two problems to be considered there: One 
is the adequacy of relief funds, both State and local, to meet the 
normal relief problem, and they are not adequate ; two, the adequacy 
of private resources to pick up this load of the migratory persons 
which, back in the earlier days prior to the passage of this law, cost 
the public agencies approximately $15,000 per month. 

You can readily see that this legislation, having shifted that load 
to the private agencies supported to a large extent by community 
iunds and; from other public subscription, the private agencies 
could not adequately carry that load. There should be available 
approximately $16,000 per month, in my opinion, to meet this normal 
problem. 

Mr. Curtis. $15,000 a month for what territory, just Chicago? 

Mr. Lyons. Just Chicago, I have reference to now. 

Mr. Curtis. What is the situation with regard to the tax load of 
both Chicago and the State of Illinois ? 

Mr. Lyons. I do not quite understand your question, and your 
reference to the term '*tax load." You mean, the ability of Chicago 
to raise funds for relief? 

Mr. Curtis. Yes. 

Mr. Lyons. That is prescribed by law. It provides that the local 
governmental unit shall make a 3-mill property tax levy, a 3-inill 
levy against the assessed valuation. Therefore, under the law, the 
local governmental unit cannot go beyond that in raising resources. 

RECOMMEN DATIONS 

Mr. Curtis. What suggestions do you have to offer to this com- 
mittee either for State governments or the Federal Government to 
cope with the jjroblem of interstate migration of destitute persons? 

Mr. Lyons. Let me say first that I think the committee is making 
a very intelligent approach to this problem by trying to find out 
the needs of people, I think perhaps in meeting the problem, too 
great emphasis has been placed on the relief phase of it. I think 
the needs of people in areas or in communities ought to be studied. 
I think provision ought to be made to meet those needs in those 
areas. That would be the first step. 

Mr. Curtis. May I interrupt you right there, Mr. Lyons? 

Mr. Lyons. Yes. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 881 

Mr. Curtis. Will von explain the first step a little more? Will 
you elaborate on it to a greater extent ^ 

Mr. Lyons. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Will you describe what you mean by meeting the needs 
in the places where the people are? 

Mr. Lyoxs. I mean this: The only way you can get at that prob- 
lem is to get, as you have gotten, a statement from the people who 
are aifected. I think that is a very sound approach. In that way 
you are able to ascertain what the problem of that individual is. 
Therefore, knowing what tliat problem is, whether it be a problem 
of someone on the land, whether it be a problem such as we have 
in the city of Chicago, of housing, or whether it be a problem of 
industrial activity, then some steps should be taken to provide 
through employment, insofar as possible, care for those people 
wherever they might be. Therefore, if the problem in the South 
was met in the South., it certainly would relieve the problem in the 
Northern States. 

Then, some provision should be made from Federal sources — 1 
say from Federal sources, because the communities cannot carry 
this load, in my opinion — some provision should be made from Fed- 
eral sources to meet the need where the need exists and to the extent 
that it exists. That does not mean a flat grant to every locality 
or every State. It means ])aying the bill where the bill should be- 
paid. That is where the people are. There should be, in my opinion, 
some uniform settlement law. That would mean that a person 
coming into any locality would know, or at least should know, what 
he is confronted with before he is determined eligible. It would 
seem then to go to the problem of the migrant. 

We are always going to have them, and I think we should, per- 
haps, but it seems to me there should be, perhaps under the Social 
Security Board — I think that would be the logical place to house 
this responsibility — provision for Federal support and supei-vision 
of that program. That should either be done under the Security 
Board, or by direct grants to the States to provide care on an ac- 
ceptable basis for those persons who happen to be in need in the 
States. That should take the form of aid to the States, but not in 
the form of flat grants on a per capita basis. 

Mr. Curtis. I think that that is all I have. Are there any other 
questions ? 

Mr. Parsons. You have been studying these problems a good many 
years, have you not, Mr. L^^ons? 

Mr. Lyons. I have for quite some time ; yes. 

NEGRO migration TO CHICAGO 

Mr. Parsons. Can you tell the committee something about the 
migration of the colored people out of the South to the city of Chi- 
cago which began back following the World War ? 

]Mr. Lyons. I cannot tell you much about the definite effect, other 
than the effect of increased industrial activity, naturally. It draws 
people, whether they be colored or otherwise, into any locality. I 



332 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

am inclined to believe too much stress has been placed upon th^. 
effect of the colored person cominjL? into the city of Chicago. 

The colored problem, of course, is an acute problem here, due to 
restrictive covenants and other factors whereby they are restricted 
in their place of abode and their method of living, which naturally 
creates a very serious relief problem. I am of the opinion that not 
only the problem of the colored person should be studied, but the 
problem of all racial groups coming into any large metropolitan 
area. 

Mr. Parsons. What reason do you give for so many of the colored 
people coming to Chicago in 1923, 1924, 1925, and 1926? We found 
out at the hearings in Alabama that there was quite an exodus out 
of the South among colored people to four or five States north of the 
Ohio, and especially to the citv of Chicago, Can you give any reason 
for it? 

Mr. Lyons. Nothing, other than the employment opportunities 
which may have occurred at that time in the large metropolitan 
areas. 

Mr. Parsons. After a few came, they still had relatives in the 
South. They wrote back and forth and occasionally went back to 
visit and brought recruits with them, is that what happened? 

Mr. Lyons. I think it is only natural for any group that has 
existed on a very low standard, that finds opportunities for employ- 
ment which gives them a much more adequate subsistence, certainly 
to want to spread that to their relatives or friends. The thing that 
I am getting at is this : I think if the problem of the needs of the 
persons had been met in the locality, that situation would not liave 
occurred. 

Mr. Parsons. And probably the labor market would have been 
supplied here from other places? 

Mr. Lyons. Other places, or persons who were in the locality. I 
do not know to wdiat extent the migi'ation of personsi into an area 
displaces people in that area. I know that it just depends on how 
many people go from here to some place else. 

Mr. Parsons. That is true. The southern Illinois territory which I 
represent, of course, has a large population in the city of Chicago. 
Their movement has been an intrastate movement. They have here 
in the city of Chicago a Southern Illinois Club, and I understand 
they have an attendance as high as 5,000 or 6,000 at their annual 
outing everj^ J^^^', somewhere either here in the city of Chicago or 
nearby. 

Of course, the southern part of the State was the first part of the 
State of Illinois to be settled, and as Chicago has grown, of course, 
it has taken up a lot of our people from the South. It has likewise 
taken people from Indiana, Wisconsin, Iowa, and perhaps Michigan 
and other States. 

Mr. Lyons. I think that is true. 

FEDERAL AID TO STATES 

Mr. Parsons. Do you have any concrete suggestions as to how 
the Federal Government should apportion aid to the States if we 
decide to do that? 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 883 

Mr. Lyons. No ; except that it should be on a need basis. 

Mr. Parsons. You would not put it on a uniform basis? 

Mr. Lyons. I do not think that is practical. The resources are 
not uniform. The problems are not uniform. I think you have to 
meet the needs on the basis of the needs. 

Mr. Parsons. Of course, in certain localities the expense is greater 
in caring for a person with the same standard than it is in other 
parts of the country. 

Mr. Lyons. The expense may be different, but you have as a prac- 
tical matter the problem of actually meeting the need, whatever it is. 
You were speaking of southern Illinois. There are many counties 
in the southern part of the State where the ability to collect taxes 
is so extremely low that no matter what standard you set up there, 
they could not meet that standard. The resources just are not there, 
in that locality. 

Mr. Parsons. Would you expect the Federal Government to give 
grants-in-aid to the States to take care of their own people, or just 
to take care of the migrant destitute people? 

Mr. Lyons. I think the big problem right now is to take care of 
the migrant. That is the problem you are discussing. I have always 
felt there should be Federal participation in the care of persons on 
direct relief as well as Federal participation in those other categories. 
Because of the fact that an individual is employable, but does not fall 
within the categories and cannot get a job, that does not mean that his 
family cannot be just as hungry, just as naked, and just as cold as 
someone else's family who happens to fall in one of the categories. 

Mr. Parsons. You mentioned awhile ago about keeping the people 
where arey are, with Government aid. Out in the Dust Bowl area, 
somewhat removed from us here in the INIiddle "West, the soil was no 
longer productive. It would be a very difficult matter to keep those 
people there. There is nothing for them to produce, and hence they 
have no income. They must go somewhere. In a lot of instances it 
is very true that the Government might do something to rehabilitate 
them in their own locality. 

Do you have any suggestions to make as to what the Government 
might do in that respect, in this area here? 

Mr. Lyons. I just raise the question as to whether or not it would 
be more difficult to keep the land where it is than it would be to keep 
the people there. I think if the land were kept there, you would have 
no difficulty with the people. I would say, therefore, that some long- 
time plan should be evolved, in an attempt to settle these people, or 
at least partially meet the problem. Any expenditure of funds to 
make the innnediate surroundings more attractive to these people 
where they are living under more normal conditions should be under- 
taken, rather than trying to meet them after they move. 

Mr. Parsons. Of course, in the Dust Bowl area, the only way we 
can keep the land there is to keep it covered with some kind of vege- 
tation, grass, and so forth. However, up in the Northwest, in the 
Dakotas and through that region, the water level fell. They could 
not even keep grasses and vegetation there. That happened to be 
the work of nature. That is bevond the control of man. 



884 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



I understand, however, it is coming back, to some extent, and that 
the northwest water level is being restored. Of course, it would in- 
volve an enormous expenditure of money by the Federal Govern- 
vment to undertake to do those things in every State at one time. 
However, it miglit be money well invested in the future. It might 
be a good investment for the future. 

Sometimes it is a good investmeiit to give relief, or to give W. P. A. 
employment, because you do keep up the morale of the citizen. You 
prevent him from becoming a -'red" or a radical or a Communist. 

Mr. Lyons. Yes. 

My. Parsons. You prevent riots and bloodshed which would un- 
doubtedly follow if the Federal Government did not step into the 
picture. 

Mr. Lyons. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. Do you have any other suggestions to make ? 

Mr. Lyons. I think I have covered this problem of migration about 
tis thoroughly as I am able. I do not think I have any further com- 
ment to make on it. , t • i i 

Mr. Parsons. You have presented a very fine picture. I wish the 
committee had time to have these papers read at length. Of course, 
the committee members will go through these statements very thor- 
oughly, not only now, but again before the report is made. You have 
made a great contribution, I think, to the cause. 

Mr. Lyons. I appreciate the o])portunity of appearing before you. 
If we can be of any further help, do not hesitate to call on us. 

Mr. Parsons. Thank you very much. Are there any other ques- 
tions? 

HANKE CASE ON LOSS OF RESIDENCE 

Mr. Sparkman. I have one more question. I was very much in- 
terested in the plight of Mr. and Mrs. Hanke. 

Mr. Lyons. Yes. I am having that record brought to my desk, so 
I can get the facts in the case. 

(The following case record was later submitted by Mr. Lyons in 
regard to the case of Mr. and Mrs. George Hanke :) 



Memoeanduji 



August 22, 1940. 



To : Mr. Leo M. Lyons, commissioner of relief, Chicago Relief Administration. 
From- Mr. Thomas Lavin, administrator, Transportation Service. 
Subject: Hanlie, George (6-16-03), Hanke, Lillian (10-4-13), Hanlie, Jeanine 
(3-31-40), 12 South Loomis Street. 

In accordance with your request, we are submitting the facts presented in the 
record of Hanlie, George-Lillian, victim witnesses at the public hearing on August 
19, 1940, of the Congressional Committee Investigating Interstate Migration of 
Destitute Citizens. . 

The Hanlce family received direct relief from the public agency in Chicago inter- 
mittently from December 29, 1934, to Augmst 1939. The case was closed in August 
1939, because the family moved and their present address was unknown. The 
worker had visited on July 3, 1939. and had learned that Mrs. Hanke had gone to 
Minneapolis with her brother-in-law. The household goods had been moved to 
Mr. Hanke's brother's home in Bensonville, III. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION §85 

On November 24, 1P39, Transportation Service received an intercity inquiry from 
tlie division of public relief, department of public welfare, Minneapolis, Minn., in 
wliicli authorization to return the family to Chicago was requested. In answer to 
our request for information concerning the Hanke's intention to establish a domi- 
cile in INIinneapolis, we learned that Mrs. Lillian Hanlie left Chicago on May 31, 
1939, with Norman Aydt, the widowed husband of her sister, and that she had gone 
with liim to St. Louis Park, Minn., to take care of liis children. This had been 
with the knowledge and consent of Mr. Hanke. Mr. Aydt and Mrs. Hanke wrote 
Mr. Hanke to come to Minnesota for a prospective job. This employment did not 
materialize, but in September 1939 Mr. Hanke secured work in Minneapolis, which 
lasted until November 1939. 

When the agency questioned Mr. Hanke about where he intended to establish 
a domicile, he replied, "Wherever I can find a job." The family expressed a desire 
to return to Chicago. 

In our letter of February 16, 1940, we advised tlie agency that in reviewing the 
case we found that according to the present interpretation of the Illinois residence 
law Mr. Hanke had lost liis Chicago residence, since he had moved to Minneapolis 
and secured employment there, and had regarded that locality as his liome. From 
his own statement he apparently intended to make his home wherever lie was 
working. Consequently, Chicago could not autliorize his return. 

On aiarch 7, 1940. we received a telegram from the Minneapolis agency inform- 
ing us that the Hanke family was arriving in Chicago on that date and that 
provision for overnight care had been made. 

Mr. Hanke applied for relief at Transiwrtation Service the following day. His 
application was accepted for surplus connnodities only. He was subsequently 
referred to Salvation Army and received aid from them. On April 19, 1940, Salva- 
tion Army advised that Mr. Hanke had obtained iirivate employment, and our case 
was closed. 

Thomas Lavin, 
Transportation Administrator. 

RN : mk 

cc : Mrs. Clara Paul Paige. 

Mr. Sparkman. It does seem to me that is a terrible condition to 
exist as among the various States, ^Yhere a person loses settlement in 
one place long before he can possibly take it up in another place. It 
is a very serious situation. 

Mr. Lyons. Yes. It is a very serious situation and one that we have 
been much concerned about. Whether there was ever any evidence 
of intent to return to Chicago, or whether the case was closed because 
of securing employment in some locality, I do not know. We have 
maintained a staff of persons in our legal department to analyze those 
cases in the light of opinions from the attorney general. 

Mr. Sparkman. In this State, does it depend upon intention to estab- 
lish residence? 

Mr. Lyons. There is no mention of intent at all in any of the legis- 
lation. It merely says that they must have resided 3 years immedi- 
ately preceding the application for relief. However, as a usual pro- 
cedure we can find, either through the retaining of a room, the storage 
of baggage, or something of that nature, an intent to return, and we 
have tried to be just as fair as we could and have tried to go as far 
as we could go in the long run. 

WORK RELIEF 

Mr. Sparkman. Of course, I know that one great discouragement 
to seeking private employment by W. P. A. employees used to be the 
fact that if they were once off the roll, they had a very difficult time 



886 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

getting back. Congress, of course, has sought to remedy that. It 
seems to me that in administering relief, W. P. A. or any of these 
works which are supposed to help take care of the needy, encourage- 
ment ought to be given toward seeking private employment, even for 
a short time. 

Mr. Lyons. We do that. It has been our policy for a number of 
years, both on W. P. A. and relief, to reinstate "immediately upon 
reapplication upon loss of employment, should it prove to be tem- 
porary. We then investigate the case as to need, after the case has 
been reinstated. 

Mv. Sparkman. Thank you. 

Mr. Parsons. Do you have many employables on direct relief in the 
city of Chicago? 

Mr. Lyons. We have now% as I recall the figures, as of last Thurs- 
day, about 24,000 employables certified and unassigned to W. P. A. 
projects. Those are persons who cannot be strictly classed as — well, 
we will put it this way: Those are persons who are acceptable for 
em))loyment. We are trying to get away from the terminology or 
designation of anybody as "unemployable." That is a matter of 
degree. That is the terminology we are now^ using, "acceptable for 
employment." 

We are endeavoring to get everyone we possibly can into private 
employment. We have no opportunity to place them on W. P. A., 
but, as Mayor Kelly pointed out this morning, through the very fine 
cooperation of the State relief commission and the city of Chicago 
and other groups, we liave developed a plan for the use of relief funds 
to transfer these employable people over into jobs. I am very defi- 
nitely of the opinion that a person in any kind of a job is much more 
likely to secure private employment and stick tlian he is if he goes 
right from direct relief and long-continued unemployment into a job. 
I think there is a period of adjustment there in going through this 
period of transition from relief into private employment. 

Mr. Parsons. So far as the number that are employables is con- 
cerned, have you ever considered a city project of some kind to have 
them work out their relief money? 

My. Lyons. We have two programs; in fact, we have three programs 
operating in the city of Chicago. One is a work-relief program 
whereby there are certain minor functions of relief administratioii to 
which we can assign people. 

Then in the community we have a law^ which is on the books of the 
State of Illinois, sometimes referred to as the Johnson law, which re- 
quires that the overseer of the poor shall refer able-bodied people to 
the superintendent of highways, road commissioner, and so forth, and 
that he may put them to work. We developed a plan whereby able- 
bodied persons on relief in the city of Chicago are referred to the 
commissioner of public works. They are then assigned to work at 
the going rate of pay for common labor, 50 cents an hour. They worlv 
out a portion of what they receive. They do not work it out com- 
pletely, because we have endeavored to spread that w^ork opportunity 
as far as possible. They are reimbursed for the day at 50 cents an 
hour, and that reimbursement is considered as any other income, com- 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 8S7 

incr into the department, as ajiainst their relief, and that then supple- 
ments it. This has been particularly effective because, ^f X*^" '^^^'^^^'' 
under the W. P. A. rulinc:, aliens cannot be employed on \V. T. A. 

Mr. Parsons. That is rio^ht. • i i i 14^ 

Mr. Lyons. A check reveals that there were 111 the neighborhood ot 
8,000 to 10.000 aliens during a given period of time. 

Mr. Parsons. Do you have a considerable number ot aliens, a con- 
siderable alien population on relief here now, on direct rehef ? 

Mr Lyons We are making a check. As of February, I believe, 
in considering some 8G,00() or 87,000 employables for transfer to 
W. P. A., and for processing, there were about that number ot aliens 
that showed up on our rolls, about 8,000 to 10,000. • t . 

Mr. Parsons. Have they been on relief for a considerable period ot 

Mr. Lyons. Some have, and some have not. Our relief rolls have 
a very rapid turn-over. .4-5 

Mr PERSONS. Are a lot of those aliens newcomers to America? 

Mr*. Lyons. No. I think comparatively few. We are making a 
study of the situation, so we will have the facts on it. 

Mr. Parsons. Of course, you have practically every race under the 
sun rejDresented here in rather substantial numbers. 

Mr. Lyons. Yes. ..,,,<> ^i 1 

Mr Parsons. Do you agree with me that it is better tor the morale 
and responsibility of the individual to be made to work out part of 

his relief money? . 

Mr. Lyons. I do not think "to be made" is proper terminology. 1 
think they ought to be given the opportunity. I think that is the 
intent of what you said. 

Mr. Parsons." Yes. , . ^ ^ j 

Mr. Lyons. I think every dollar of any kind of money we spend 

in providing emplovment is a much more justifiable expenditure than 

anv dollar we spend on direct relief. We have purely dependent 

cases which have to be provided for, where there are no employable 

people. „ . X' ^1 ui 

I am sure that at least 95 percent, if not 99 percent ot the able- 
bodied people on relief would much rather work for what they get 
than take it without working. 

Mr. Parsons. Are there any other questions, gentlemen? 

(No response.) • 1 i u a 

The statement which vou have submitted, Mr. Lyons, entitled A 
Statement on Interstate' Migration of Destitute Citizens," has been 
received as part of the record. 

Mr. Parsons. The committee wishes to thank you very much, Mr. 
Lyons. You have been very helpful to us. 

'Mr. Lyons. I am glad to have had the opportunity to appear be- 
fore you. 

(Whereupon, Mr. Lyons was excused.) 

Mr. Parsons. The next witness will be Mr. Shils. 



260370— 40— pt. 3 6 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

TESTIMONY OF EDWAED SHILS, OF THE DEPARTMENT OF 
SOCIOLOGY, UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO 

Mr. Parsons, Will you state your name and address to the reporter 
for the record, please, Mr. Shils. 

Mr. Shils. Edward Shils, University of Chicago. 

Mr. Parsons. I understand that you have a paper to present which 
was i^repared by Dr. Wirth. 

Mr. Shils. Yes. 

(The paper referred to is as follows:) 

Statement by Louis Wikth, Professok of Sociology. Unh-eksity of Chicago, 

Chicago, III. 

(Presented by Edward Shils) 
historical aspects of urban migration in the midwest 

The problem of interstate migration did not loom large in American history 
as long as we had a vast unexplored and open frontier and as long as much of 
our territory was not organized in the form of sovereign States. Once the 
major portion of the land area was claimed by hidividnal owners, and that part 
of it which remained in the public domain — either Federal or State — was no 
longer freely granted to homesteaders and settlers and the railroads, the prob- 
lem of interstate migration emerged. 

The problem today is less, or only to a very minor degree, a problem, of the 
search for land than it is a problem of the search for jobs. Indeed, the search 
for land and a place of settlement is only rarely nowadays the object of migra- 
tion. As in the case of the mass migrations from the Southwest to the Pacific 
coast, which have been dramatized in recent years, the relative exhaustion of 
natural resources in one area and their relative abundance in the other no 
longer has as a consequence the transfer of ownership of land but is largely a 
matter of the search for agricultural labor jobs. In this sense, the migration 
of a population from one agricultural area to another is fundamentally no 
different from the migration of agricultural people to industrial centers or the 
movement from one city to another. Inequalities between localities and regions 
in economic opportunity, rather than the quest for land or the search for 
adventure, are the basic elements in modern interstate migration in the United 
States. 

The rapid growth of the population and the phenomenal accumulation of 
wealth in the United States could not have been accomplished without the almost 
unlimited freedom to move from one area to another, which the settlers in this 
country enjoyed until recently. Freedom to move is perhaps the most basic of 
human liberties. It is the very antithesis of bondage or slavery. For the 
perpetuation of our institutions, therefore, it is essential that this freedom be 
preserved. Without it, our national union could not long survive. If the States 
and localities should be allowed to undermine this freedom by the erection of 
barriers, the unhappy prospect of the crystallization of separate civic bodies 
hostile to and jealous of one another is not an unlikely one in this country. 

The streams of migration in American history and their effect upon the de- 
velopment of this country have been analyzed by a number of students. The 
most recent of these is the Study on Migration and Economic Opportunity, edited 
by Prof. Carter Goodrich. Our own studies have been confined to migrations as 
they have affected the development of cities (see Our Cities, Their Role in the 
National Economy, a report to the National Resources Committee ; and Popula- 
tion Statistics, Urban Data, also by the National Resources Committee) and the 
studies concerning the development of the metropolitan area of Chicago. 

The central fact that emerges from these studies is tliat, with the virtual cutting 
off of European immigration since shortly after the World War, our cities have 
continued to grow by absorbing the surphis population of the American country- 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 889 

side Thus duriiig the decade 18()(>-70, foreign-horn persons made up 48 percent 
of tiie population increase in Chicago ; the foreign-born constituted 41 permit ot 
the total increase from 1900 to I'.HO. while of the total increases from 1910 to 
1930 thev made up only r, percent. This makes it obvious indeed that the growth 
of Chicago is due to movements from within the United States. Irom 1880 to 
1890 -M percent of Chicago's increase was due to the movement into the city ot 
persons boni elsewhere in the United States. In the decade 1920-30 60 percent 
of the increase was due to movements from elsewhere in the United States into 
Chicago (cf tables I and II). From 1890 to 1930 the number of native whites 
in Chicago who were born in Indiana and Wisconsin increased just as much as 
did those born in Illinois (less than 300 percent), while those Chicagoans from 
Michigan Missouri, Iowa, and Kentucky increased by 400 percent, which shows 
that Chicago was drawing increasingly on these last four States to build up 
its population— and its prosperity (cf. table IV). . , ^ . , . , ^v. 

The development of great metropolitan cities and of the industries which they 
harbor like the building of the railroads in an earlier epoch and the original 
settlement of the land, is intimately bound up with the continued free movement 
of people from areas of lesser to greater opportunity. If we examine the three 
important industrial States right in this part of the country— Illinois, Indiana, 
and Wisconsin— we find that, as industry grew in these States, their populations 
came to an increasing extent to be made up of people— native Americans— from 
other States Thus, in the decade 1900-1910 only 2 percent of the native Americans 
in these States were born in other States : in the next decade the percentage grew 
to 13 percent; and in the last decade only a little less than one-third of tlie 
whole native population of these States came from somewhere else in this country 
(cf table III, columns 5 and 6). As educational opportunities, cultural opportuni- 
ties and economic security have been diffused more uniformly over the whole 
country, some of the incentives for migration in an earlier period are disappearing. 
There remains, however, the incentive of the search for greater economic oppor- 
tunity There is no prospect that this will be equally distributed throughout the 
country considering the inequality of the resources and the condition of our 
markets. There will, therefore, be continued migration provided the barriers to 
it are not made insuperable. 

There has been another trend of migration — from the central cities outward to 
the periphery of the cities, often crossing State lines, as is the case especially with 
the great metropolitan centers. This movement has resulted not so much in the 
dispersion of the urban population over the countryside as it has resulted in the 
redistribution of a portion of the urban population along the periphery of the 
metropolitan centers but close enough to them to be an integral part of metro- 
politan life. 

In the earliest period of American histoi-y the migrant was the frontiersman, 
the homesteader, and the settler. In a suliseqiient period he was the ho])o and 
migratory worker. But. as Nels Anderson has shown in his volume about to be 
published (Men (m the Move), the hobo is no more. This implies not so much 
that migration has ceased but that it is taking a new form. The automol)ile and 
hard roads have changed the technique of migration. The depression, which has 
been Nation-wide in character and from which we have not wholly recoverf^d. has 
called forth governmental means to mitigate the problems incident to aimless 
wandering of youth, adults, and families. It is important that these means be 
expanded and' brought into congruence with a farsighted policy which, while 
it recognizes special local and regional proldems, is formulated in the interests 
of the national welfare. Nothing would contribute more to a rational policy 
designed to minimize hardships, frictions between communities, and violent out- 
bursts in localities calculated to offer resistance to invasion than an adequate na- 
tional information service on employment opportunities and the further expansion 
of our employment services to bring work seekers and job opportunities into a 
more effective relationship with one another. The maintenance, and perhaps the 
extension in certain directions, of social-security measures will stabilize population 
to some extent. Meanwhile, it is important in the interests of the maintenance of 
a free-labor market, the prevention of the emergence of a caste order in American 
society, and the preservation of our institutions, that both official and unofficial 
measures to prevent the fre(> movement of Americans within the confines of the 
United States be iniiibited by effective legislation. 



890 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



Table I. — Percentage of total increase of Chicago popnlation coming from each 

source, 1860-1930 ' 





Total in- 
crease in 
popula- 
tion 


Increase in— 


Decade 


Foreign- 
born popu- 
lation 


Colored 
popula- 
tion 


White 
popula- 
tion from 
United 
States 


Births 

over 

deaths 


1860 to 1870 


100 
100 
100 
100 
100 
100 
100 


47.8 
29.4 
49.3 
23.4 
41.4 
4.6 
5.4 




33.4 
46.3 
29.0 
45.0 
10.4 
45.0 
38.4 


15.9 
24.4 
20.1 
28.9 
24.2 
38.0 
34.5 


1870 to 1880 




1880 to 1890 


1.6 

2.7 

3.0 

12.4 

21.7 


1890 to 1900 


1900 to 1910 


1910 to 1920 


1920 to 1930 _ 





1 Homer Hoyt, One Hundred Years of Land Values in Chicago, University of Chicago Press, 1933. 
Table II. — Sources of increase of Chicago population, 1S30-1930 ^ 





Total 
increase in 
population 


Increase in— 


Decade 


Foreign- 
born popu- 
lation 


Colored 
population 


White 
population 
from other 
parts of 
United 
States 


Births over 
deaths 


1830 to 1840.. . 


4, 429 
25, 484 
79, 243 
188, 717 
205, 108 
496; 665 
588, 725 
468, 708 
525, 422 
674, 733 


V-) 

90, 133 
60, 302 
244, 769 
137, 584 
194. 105 
24, 165 
36, 575 


C-) 




400 

2,000 

10, 000 

30, 000 

50, 000 

100, 000 

170, 000 

212, 000 

200. 000 

233, 000 


1840 to 1850 




1850 to 1860 




1860 to 1870 . 


63, 000 
95, 000 
144, 106 
265, 262 
48, 650 
236, 257 
259, 158 


1870 to 1880 




1880 to 1890 . 


7,791 

15, 879 

13, 953 

65,000 

146, 000 


1890 to 1900 


1900 to 1910 


1910 to 1920 


1920tol930._ . 





1 Homer Hoyt, One Hundred Years of Land Values in Chicago, University of Chicago Press, 1933 

2 Before 1860 no accurate data are available for increase in foreign-born population. Increase in colored 
population in this period was negligiole. 

Table III. — Residence status of native population of Illinois, Indiana, and 

Wisconsin, 1890-1930 





Total population 


Net deficit 
for 3 States 

(4) 


Decennial change 


Year 


Born in 3 

States 

(2> 


Eesiding in 
3 States 

(3) 


Decade 

(5) 


Percent of increase of 
population 


(1) 


Residing 
in 3 States, 

born in 
other States 

(6) 


Born in 3 

States, 

residing in 

other States 

(7) 


1890 


6, 448, 437 
8, 123, 760 
9, 598, 101 
11, 127, 187 
12, 667, 549 


6, 197, 884 

7, 782, 215 

8, 795, 485 
10, 225, 340 
12,034,418 


2.50, 553 
341,545 
802, 616 
901, 847 
633, 131 








1900 


1890-1900 
1900-1910 
1910-20 
1920-30 


14.0 

1.8 

13.2 

29.2 


17.8 
27.6 
12.9 
8.3 


1910 


1920 


1330 





INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



891 



Table IV. — Percentage (iistributioti and decennial change of native-'born popu- 
lation, hy State of birth and foreign-born in the city of Chicago, 1890-1'J-iO 





Total 
popula- 
tion 


Foreign- 
born 

popula- 
tion 


Total 
native 
popula- 
tion 


State of birth of native 


population 


Year 


Illinois 


Indiana 
and Wis- 


Michi- 
gan, 
Missouri, 
Iowa, and 


New 
York, 
Penn- 


All other 
States 












consin 


Ken- 
tucky 


















and Ohio 




1890 


100. 00 
100. 00 
100. 00 


40.98 
34.57 
35.85 


59.02 
65.43 
64.15 


39.68 
45.32 

46. 56 


3.12 
3.83 
3.52 


3.01 
4.24 
3.96 


7.67 
7.15 
5.45 


5.54 


1900 


4.89 


1910 


4.66 


1920 


100.00 


29.93 


70.07 


51. 41 


3. 55 


4.14 


4.68 


6.29 


1930 


100. 00 


25.45 


74.55 


51.49 


3.97 


4.97 


4.18 


9.94 


Increase or decrease: 


















1S90 to 1900 


54.4 


30.3 


71.2 


76.4 


89.3 


117.8 


44.1 


36.1 


1900 to 1910 


28.7 


33.4 


26.1 


32.2 


18.2 


20.0 


-1.9 


22.6 


1910 to 1920 


23.6 


3.2 


35.0 


36.5 


24.8 


29.4 


6.0 


66.9 


1920 to 1930 


25.0 


6.3 


33.0 


25.2 


39.7 


50.0 


11.7 


97.5 


1890 to 1930 


207.0 


90.7 


287.7 


298.3 


290.0 


407.4 


67.3 


450.4 



jNIr. Parsons. Do you care to make any comment in connection 
with it? 

Mr. Shils. No additional comment, unless you have some specific 
questions. 

Mr. Parsons. You are connected with the department of sociology ? 

Mr. Shils. Yes. 

Mr. Par.sons. Under Dr. Wirth? 

Mr. Shils. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. You have heard the testimony here this morning, 
have you not, Mr. Shils? 

Mr. Shils. Yes. 

]\Ir. Parsons. Do you have any suogestions to make that might 
aid the committee in this problem of migration? 



recommendations 

Mr. Shils. "Well, no. I can only reiterate the suggestions and 
recommendations which have already been made, namely, the neces- 
sity for a greater coordination of employment information and the 
more adequate diffusion of the employment information to the unem- 
ployed in the various parts of the country. 

At the present time it is true that there is, through various State 
employment agencies, information available at. such agencies, but 
most persons who are unemployed do not know about the existence 
of the agency, in my experience. 

Mr. Parsons. How would you disseminate this information; 
through tlie public ])ress? 

Mr. Shils. Through tlie public press, or through the radio. I 
think the radio would be more valuable, because more persons in the 
lower income groups listen to the radio than read the newspapers, 
I think. 

Mr. Parsons. I think that is true. 

Mr. Shils. Yes. 



g92 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. Parsons We are glad to have had you appear here. Are 
there any questions ? 

Mr. Sparkmax. I woukl like to ask one question. I notice from. 
the statement of Dr. Wirth, four specific recommendations are made : 
First, adequate national information service on employment oppor- 
tunities; second, a further expansion of our employment services in 
order to bring the workers and the job oj^portunities together ; third, 
the extension of our social security measures; and fourth, effective 
legislation to prevent measures inhibiting the free movement of 
Americans. Those do state pretty well the conclusions of his paper 
as I understand it ? 

Mr. Shils. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. That is all. 

Mr. Curtis. May I ask this question : Do you have here in Chicago 
the problem of private employment agencies or travel bureaus induc- 
ing people to come to this area for work, when there is no work? 

Mr. Shils. I do not think that is the case in recent years. 

Mr. Curtis. You do not think that is the case in recent years? 

Mr. Shils. No. That was the case in the early twenties, particu- 
larly with the Negroes in the Southern States, but I do not think it 
has been the case in Chicago in recent years. 

Mr. Curtis. That is all. 

Mr. Parsons. The statement prepared by Dr. Wirth headed "A 
Statement Concerning Historical Aspects of Urban Migration in the 
Midwest" has been received as part of the record. We wish to express 
our appreciation to Dr. Wirth for his contribution. That is all, Mr. 
Shils. 

(Whereupon Mr. Shils was excused.) 

The Chairman. The committee will stand adjourned until 2 o'clock 
this afternoon. 

(Whereupon, at 12 : 40 p. m., a recess was taken until 2 p. m. of the 
same day.) 

afternoon session 

(The hearing was reconvened at 2 p. m.) 

TESTIMONY OF HARRY C. NAIL, JR., RESEARCH CONSULTANT, 
ATTORNEYS GENERAL SECTION, COUNCIL OF STATE GOVERN- 
MENTS 

The Chairman. The committee will please come to order. The next 
witness will be Mr. Nail. Mr. Nail will be interrogated by Congress- 
man Parsons. 

Mr. Parsons. State your name and address for the benefit of the 
record. 

Mr. Nail. Harry C. Nail, Jr., research consultant, attorneys general 
section, Council of State Governments. 

Mr. Parsons. You are with the Council of State Governments? 

Mr. Nail. Yes; I am with the Council of State Governments. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 893 

Mr. Parsons. You have no direct connection Avith tlie attorney gen- 
eral's office of Illinois ? 

Mr. Nail. No, sir ; except that he is a member of the National Asso- 
ciation of Attorneys General, and we serve as the secretariat of that 
Association. 

(Statement presented is as follows:) 

Statement by Hakry C. Nail, Jr., Research Consultant, Attorneys General 
Section, Council of State Govetjnments 

interstate agreements for the transfer of dependent migrants 

The administration of public relief to dependent persons is controlled in most 
States by statutory provisions wliich deteimine eligibility on the basis of time 
spent within the community. These provisions, technically known as settle- 
ment laws, have as their foundation the seventeenth century poor laws of 
England which were passed to deal with the dependency attendant upon the 
break-up of the feudal system and the consequent growth of towns and 
cities.^ 

Today our population mobility again brings the settlement law into the 
foreground and raises the question as to whether the theory of strict local 
responsibility for the relief of dependents is adequate. 

Settlement laws have a twofold purpose: First, that of setting up qualifi- 
cations or conditions of eligibility for public assistance; and, second, the fixing 
of responsibility for such public assistance upon the locality wherein there has 
been a compliance with the qualifications. The qualifications in the various 
States take the form of residence requirements of from G months to 5 years, 
and in addition generally provide that such residence be acquired without the 
receipt of public or private assistance." The settlement statutes also generally 
provide that the status entitling one to public aid may be lost by absence from 
the State or by the acquisition of a new settlement in another State. 

Aside from the stated methods providing for the loss of the settlement status 
there is also the possibility that the State legislature may take away the 
right which it created. In other words, the settlement status is not a vested 
right but rather a matter of grace dependent upon the pure whim of the 
legislators. 

The tendency today is for the legislatures to revise upward the residence 
time requirement increasing the difliculty of acquiring a legal settlement. At 
the same time, however, such increases have generally been interpreted as 
not affecting those vvho have already acquired a settlement status, that is, 
they are not retroactive. 

As a result of this tendency a more lilieral interpretation of the laws has 
taken place and attorneys general in many instances have attempted to reduce 
the harsh effects through their power of construction.^ 

1 Hirsh, Harry M., Our Settlemeot Laws, New York State Department of Social 
Welfare, p. 6. 

- Settlement — Acquisition — Farm Security Administration Aids — Effect of (Loomis, 
Wis., December 17, 1938). Xo set rule may be applied as to effect of various activities 
of Farm Security Administration on question of legal settlement which bv law is denied 
to persons while beins "supported as a pauper or employed on any State or Federal work 
relief program." Generally Farm Security Administration and corporation standard loans 
are not relief, but contemplate rehabilitation. Grants not supported by work agreements 
indicate relief or pauper status, but employment under work agreement does constitute 
employment on a ''Federal work relief program" so as to bar acquisition of settlement. 

^Eligibility for Assistance — Interpretations — (Reno, Pa., Rutherford, Asst., March 6, 
1940. In 19o9 Pennsylvania amended its I'ublic Assistance Act. The residence require- 
ment was increased from 1 to 2 years and a settlement requirement was added. The 
former 1-year residence condition for eligibility did not create any vested rights to relief 
which were not subject to change by the legislature, since relief responsibility is purely 
statutory. Another provision of the 19.39 law provides that funds shall be kept by the 
director for furnishing assistance in emergency cases. A liberal interpretation if placed 
upon this provision permitting the director to make a grant in an emergency situation 
until other aid can be solicited, even in cases where the facts disclosed indicated ineligi- 
bility under the act. 



g94 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

The migrant seeking economic security experiences the real brunt of the 
settlement laws ; stranded in a foreign connnunity his appeal for aid can only 
be directed to private charity groups. Where industrial or agricultural cir- 
cumstances force largo migrant movements, however, the settlement law under 
existing arrangements is a necessary protection to those geographical sectors 
in which the migrants sojourn. In such sectors the usual resources of the 
community cannot be expected to meet the demands occasioned by such a 
great increase in population. 

Attempts have been made to effect a partial remedy to cope with the problems 
of the dependent migrant. In cases where migrants have maintained a settle- 
ment status in the States from which they have migrated, interstate agreements 
providing for their return have been consummated. Such agreements now exist 
between Vermont and Maine. Vermont and New York, and Vermont and New 
Hampshire. In 193o the National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform 
State Laws drafted and approved a Uniform Transfer of Dependents Act pro- 
viding for the enactment of enabling clauses permitting the formation of recipro- 
cal agreements between States. 

In 193S the National Association of Attorneys General became interested in this 
problem and there was established an advisory committee on public assistance. 
This committee, with the aid of the American Public Welfare Association, is re- 
sponsible for the terminology changes in the most recent interstate agreements 
and for the sponsorship of this device as a means of aiding the migrant. 

Lack of uniformity In settlement laws, however, particularly with respect to 
the loss of settlement, destroys the effectiveness of interstate agreements. For 
example, a person migrating from New York to Vermont would lose his settlement 
in New York after 1 year's absence and would not gain settlement in Vermont 
until 3 years' presence. Hence, after the duration of 1 year, Vermont could not 
request that this person l)e transported back to the State of New York for that 
State is no longer responsible under the law. The result is that neither State 
is legally bound to provide relief and the interstate agreement entered into in 
no way corrects this situation. Such agreements could be made more workable 
if they were of a higher order than the statiitnry enactments that pertain to loss 
of settlement. Legislative authority might be delegated to the officers entering 
into the agreement to revise the loss of settlement provisions with respect to 
dependents sought to be transferred. For example, if the agreement provided 
that no settlement is lost until a new one is gained, authority to transfer would 
always exist, for theoretical settlement is gained at birth through inheritance. 
Whether such legislative powers could be delegated to the persons designated to 
form agreements is doubtful, but ratification of the agreement by the legislature 
would cure this defect. 

Aside from the nonuniformity of settlement laws among the several States, 
other factors indicate that the interstate agreement for the transfer of dependent 
migrants is not a satisfactory method of treatment. In the case of California, a 
State having great attraction for the migrant, the following unofficial statement 
by the attorney general points out the defects : 

"While this compact (agreement) undoubtedly provides a satisfactory adjust- 
ment of this problem for Maine and Vermont and might serve as a model for 
other States similarly situated, it does not offer a solution for California of this 
difficult problem. 

"In the first place, under the present laws there is no aiithority permitting the 
officials of California to enter into such a compact and specific legislation would 
be necessary to authorize it. Such legislation could not be considered until the 
regular session of our legislature in 1941. 

"Secondly, the laws of California with reference to the return of indigent 
migrants are not uniform as to length of residence in this State. For instance, 
Tuider sections 2500 to 2615 of the Welfare and Institutions Code of Cali- 
fornia (California Indigent Act, Stats. 1987, ch. 464), which sections make it 
the duty of the counties to relieve and support all incompetent, poor, in- 
digent ijersons and those incapacitated by old age, di.sease, or accident, the 
residence qualification is fixed at 3 years and if the residence qualification is 
not met the county is authorized to spend the money necessary to transport 
the nonresident to his State of legal residence. On the other hand, it is 
provided under our children's aid law that the residence requirement shall be 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 895 

1 year immediately preceding the date of application. In addition, tliere is a 
statutory provision permitting boards of supervisors to care for the indigent 
sicli (sec. 217, Welfare and Institutions Code) which does not provide any 
specific length' of tinip as a residence rapiirement Init authorizes the transpor- 
tation of such indigents to other States, 'when such indigents will thereby 
cease to become public charges, or when friends or relatives of such indigents 
agree to assume the cost and expense of the care and maintenance of such 
indigents, or when such indigents are legally public charges in the places to 
which they are so transported.' 

"Finally, the provisions of section 4 of the compact, which makes the trans- 
fer dependent upon the agreement of both States that the welfare of the in- 
digent and his familv will be promoted by such transfer, might cause so much 
negotiation and perhaps dispute as to make the compact exceedingly difficult 
to administer. In instances where the migrants have fled from disaster m the 
State of residence, the practical effect would, in my opinion, be to require that 
California keep them. 

"This compact would seem to be suitable for use between States which have 
relatively small numbers of such cases to deal with, but I am not so sure that 
it would" benefit States which liave a great influx of migrants." 

It has been recommended that settlement laws be abolished entirely on the 
theory that for most States the relief burden would not thereby increase— the 
number of dependents coming into the State would be offset by those going 
out. This recommendation obviously could not apply to States like California 
unless outside financial resources — such as grants in aid — were forthcoming. 

The difficulties of repealing the settlement laws are manifest, particularly 
when the Federal Government has apparently placed its stamp of approval 
upon this type of legislation by providing in the Social Security Act that 
States receiving Federal aid may not exclude from benefits anyone who has 
resided in the State for the following specified periods : 

Aid to the Wind. — Five years during the 9 years immediately preceding 
application, the last year continuously. 

Old-ar/e assistance. — Five years during the 9 years immediately preceding 
application, the last year continuously. 

Aid to dependent children.— One year immediately preceding application. 
A child born within the State within 1 year immediately preceding applica- 
tion is eligible if its mother has resided in the State for 1 year immediately 
preceding its birth. 

As for the demand for uniformity of settlement laws throughout the States, 
if the theory of the law is bad, then such a demand amounts to a request 
that a bad law be uniformly bad. 

In the case of migrants, a change in the law with respect to the loss of 
settlement would create a desired status if the plan of local responsibility is 
to be continued. This change, modeled after the legal interpretation of a 
domiciliary status, would merely provide that a legal settlement is not lost 
until a new one is gained. The advantages of this policy, especially in the case 
of the migrant, are apparent. 

Since this memorandum is confined to the legal aspects of settlement laws and 
interstate agreements for the transfer of migratory dependents, the social 
phases of the problem have not been discussed. 

TESTIMONY OF HARRY C. NAIL, JR.— Resumed 

Mr. Parsons. You have presented here a very fine statement, and 
because of the lack of time, %Ye cannot have you read it all, I will ask 
you some questions about it. 

Mr. Nail. All rio-ht. 

Mr. Parsons. Before we «;et to that, some members of the committee 
have been discu-ssinc; what w^as said about changino; the settlement law 
in Illinois last year. We did not want to cause any embarrassment to 
the State or the State leo;islature by seeminc: to be critical of that 
change. I wonder if you know why the time was changed from 1 year 
to 3 years by the legislature? 

Mr, Nail. I do not know specifically why they did. I can see a rea- 
son for it ; that is, to limit the financial responsibility on the part of the 



ggg INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

State. That is the reason for all settlement laws, I think. Why it was 
specifically, in this particular instance, raised from 1 year to 3 years, I 
have no knowledge. 

Mr. Parsons. In his testimony Mr. Lyons did not indicate that there 
had been any appreciable migration into Illinois, or at least not into 
Chicago, just for the purpose of getting on relief. 

]\Ir. Nail. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. I asked him about that specifically. 

Mr. Nail. I recall that. 

Mr. Parsons. He mentioned that on more than one occasion. 

Mr. Nail. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. The Illinois Emergency Relief Commission has all of 
the records probably that are available upon that question. He also 
stated that they did not recommend passage of the law. 

Mr. Natl. I heard him say that. 

Mr. Parsons. Are you familiar with the act changing the time, 
familiar enough with it to know whether or not that Avas a section that 
was placed into the act extending the Illinois Emergency Relief Com- 
mission ? 

Mr. Nail. No; I am not. I am acquainted with the attorney 
general's opinion that interpreted that act ; that is, with respect to the 
extension of time from 1 year, I believe, to 3 years. 

Mr. Parsons. I see. 

Mr. Nail. As far as the act itself is concerned, I am not familiar 
with it. 

Mr. Parsoxs. From your study of settlement laws, will you explain 
to the committee your concept of the origin and purpose of settlement 
laws and how they have been Inmded down from past centuries? 

Mr. Nail. I think it was in the year 1300. or thereabouts, in England 
there was a statute passed, called the statute of labor. This statute ])ro- 
vided that it was a penal offense for anyone not to accept employ- 
ment in the place where he was located. 

In about 1600 we began to see our first settlement law, at the time of 
Elizabeth. They were breaking up the feudal system at that time, 
and cities were faced with a large influx of population. They had to 
limit their financial responsibility. They passed a law very similar 
to the law we have in Illinois and in most of the States today. In fact, 
the effect of the law is the same, but the terminology has changed a 
little bit. That law became part of the famous Elizabethan Code. 
Then it was brought over when we colonized the United States, and it 
has been with us since that time. 

We have a precedent, therefore, extending back about three or four 
hundred years. That is the type of law we have today. 

Mr. PiVRSONS. We learned over in New York City that the New Eng- 
land settlement laws were almost identical today with wdiat they were 
when the Constitution was adopted. 

Mr. Nail. That is true. 

Mr. Parsons. There has been very little, if any, change. 

Mr. Nail. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. Of course, they were handed down, or borrowed, from 
the old English law. 

Mr. Nail. Yes. 



INTEBSTATE MIGRATION 897 

ABOLITION OF SETTLEMENT LAWS 

Mr. Parsons. What is your idea about the time? "VVliat is your 
opinion as to what chanijes should be made? Should they be abol- 
ished altogether, or should they be made uniform ; and if so, how can 
we accomplish that ? Conoress cannot step into the State picture. 

Mr. Nail. That is true. I do not think, from the standpoint of 
theory, the element of time should be the determining factor in ascer- 
tainino; whether a person should be given relief. I think it is de- 
pendent upon whether he needs relief, rather than the question of 
whether he has been in the community 6 months or 5 years. So believ- 
ing, I think settlement laws should be abolished, but I do not think you 
are going to have any success in attempting to abolish them. 

As I said before, until you remove the cause for settlement laws, 
which is the limitation of financial responsibility, it appears that you 
are not going to have very much success in removing the settlement 
laws themselves. 

Mr. Parsons. These terms "settlement laws," "residence laws," and 
so forth, may be confusing to the public. Will you explain the differ- 
once, using Illinois, of course, as an illustration, between our residence 
law and our settlement law? 

Mr. Nail. They are entirely different. You have the term "resi- 
dence" often appearing in the statutes with respect to jurisdiction for 
divorces and with respect to voting statutes. Where we refer to the 
settlement law, we use the word "residence" in an entirely different way. 

In the first place, it is a particular type of residence. It must be one 
self-supporting in nature, and if you receive public assistance or pri- 
vate assistance, you are not fulfilling the requirements as to that type 
of residence. I should say, in the first place, we should consider the 
settlement law as having a twofold purpose : First that of setting up 
qualifications or conditions of eligibility for public assistance; and 
second the fixing of responsibility for such public assistance upon the 
locality wherein there has been a compliance with the qualifications. 
But we should not confuse the term "residence," or think that we are 
referring to it with respect to settlement laws in the same way as when 
we are referring to voting laws or jurisdiction laws. 

The Chairman. Is the settlement law always predicated upon relief 
or assistance? 

Mr. Nail. Yes; in my opinion. 

Mr. Parsons. It is your thought that the legislature raised the limi- 
tation to 3 years in order to avoid reliefers who might be migrating 
to the State ? 

Mr. Nail. Yes ; and I think, too. there is a tendency throughout the 
States to raise residence requirements. I know that in Colorado, In- 
diana, Kansas, Minnesota. Pennsylvania 

The Chairman. And California. 

Mr. Nail. And California, that has been done. There is a trend in 
that direction. 

Mr. Parsons. Give us your suggestions as to how Congress might 
attack this problem in the way of uniformity of settlement laws. You 
say you think they might as well be repealed. My fear about that is 



^98 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

that should you do so, it might be an inducement to at least a limited 
number of people to see America first at the expense of the govern- 
mental aoencies furnishing relief. 

If he could apply at Chicago today and get relief, and then run over 
into Iowa tomorrow and could api)ly and get relief there, and stay for 
10 days and then go on out through Kansas and out through the 
Rockies and out to the coast, and then down the coast, every State in 
which he stopped for a few days would furnish relief, so he would 
have a nice junket, so-called, at the expense of the relief agencies. 

Mr. Nail. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. What do you have to say about that ? 

RECOMMENDATIONS 

Mr. Nail. I think it might be true in isolated instances, but I think 
that just the idea of receiving relief in a place where you would like 
to go for climatic reasons, or because you would like to see the country, 
is not a sufficient force to cause a family to uproot their connections in 
the State where they have settlement, or if they do not have settlement 
there, and move on to another State. I think you might have individ- 
ual instances, as I say, but not a widei^read movement at all. 

Mr. Parsons. What are your suggestions as to how Congress can 
attack this problem? Do you think it can be done by giving grants- 
in-aid to the States, and influencing the States to adopt, say, uniform- 
ity of settlement laws ? 

1. EXTENSION OF FEDERAL AID 

Mr. Nail. Well, I think if the Federal Government were to rees- 
tablish the Federal transient program that was in existence in 1933 — 
not exactly that particular program, but something of that nature — 
they would then be limiting the financial responsibility to be placed on 
the States, because the Federal Government would be taking care of 
those persons who did not have settlement status by direct grant. 

If that were done, and the States could be made to believe their 
financial responsibilitj^ would not increase, I think they would be more 
likely to revise downward the present residence requirements. They 
might never abolish them, but there would be no particular reason 
for continuing the settlement laws. 

Mr. Parsons. Would you have the Federal Government contribute 
the entire cost of the out-of-State destitute migrant ? 

Mr. Nail. Yes. I would have it contribute the entire cost for those 
persons who did not have a resident status. I think there is a tend- 
ency on the part of most of the States to feel that they do not par- 
ticularly like to help the outsiders that come in. They are willing to 
take care of those persons who have been residents of the State for 
some period of time. 

2. MIGRANT REGISTRATION 

Mr. Parsons. Would it be helpful if we were able through the vari- 
ous local and Federal Government agencies to catalog all of the 
migrants and were able to have a definite report on them ? 

Mr. Nail. I think it would be decidedly helpful. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 899 

Mr. Parsons, Then when tliey left, to ^o from one place to an- 
other, the agency could give tliem some kind of identification showing 
what type and character of person they were, so that they could pre- 
sent that identification in the next State or at the next stop to the local 
authorities, who would then understand the background of these 
migrants. 

Mr. Nail. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. Would that be helpful, do you think? 

Mr. Nail. I think so. I think if you had a record of these migrants, 
it would be very helpful. 

Mr. Parsons. Yes. 

3. UNIFORM SBTTLEMKNT LAWS 

Mr. Nail. You asked a moment ago about making these laws 
uniform. 

Mr. Parsons. Yes. 

Mr. Nail. There is an organization called the National Conference 
of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws. They have been in exist- 
ence about 50 years. They have been attempting to make laws uni- 
form with respect to commercial transactions in the main. 

During that time, they have only been able to make one law uniform, 
and that is the Negotiable Instruments Act. If we are attempting now 
to make settlement laws uniform, we have a hard road ahead of us, 
unless it could be done through some form of grant-in-aid with con- 
ditions attached. 

Mr. Parsons. If it was necessary for them to qualify for aid. Con- 
gress might be able to touch the problem. 

Mr. Nail. I think Congress has done that in connection with the 
Veterans Guardianship Act. They have been very successful in 
having that adopted. There still are a few States, however, that 
have not adopted it. 

jNIr. Parsons. What has been your observation in your study of 
this problem where the States have more recently been raising the 
limitation of the time? Do you not think that merely aggravates the 
problem as a whole? 

]VIr. Nail. Particularly for the migrant, it does. It also aggravates 
it for those in the community, because disputes arise as to whether 
they have settlement, and the cost of litigation is very high. 

Mr. Parsons. Have you any recommendations to make to the com- 
mittee that you think might be beneficial in improving present prac- 
tices in the treatment of this problem? 

Mr. Nail. The only recommendation I would have to make is, as I 
have said, with respect to grants-in-aid; some sort of program such 
as the Federal transient program, or an extension of the categories of 
social security to take in this particular class of persons. 

Mr. Parsons. You would require the Federal Government to pay 
the entire cost of the destitute migrant? 

Mr. Nail. I think so ; yes. 

Mr. Parsons. That is all. 

The Chairman. Mr. Nail, you are a lawyer, are you not? 

Mr. Nail. Yes. 



900 



INTERSTATE MIGRATIOIS 



The Chairman. The Federal Government, of course, could not tell 
the States what residence laws or settlement laws they should enact. 
Is that not true ? 

Mr. Nail. No ; they cannot. 

The Chairman. But if your suggestion were followed, of course, 
the United States Congress']' urisdiction would follow the dollar, would 
it not, if they granted aid to the States? 

Mr. Nail. I think that has been the case with respect to the social- 
security law and with respect to the merit system. 

The Chairman. I think you will agree with me that this is a very 
complex problem. There is no single solution. You very delicately 
approached just one. 

Mr. Nail. Yes. 

The Chairman. Now, we have former President Hoover who thinks 
the solution is resettlement of millions of acres of federally owned 
property in the United States. Mrs. Roosevelt agrees with him. That 
is one subject they agree on. Yet you can readily see what a problem 
that is. You can see what it would involve, if we should recommend 
that. We have to first find the land and do many other things before 
that could be accomplished. 

Mr. Nail. That is true. 

The Chairman. Do you not think, Mr. Nail, in agreement with the 
other witnesses, that this is really a national problem i 

Mr. Nail. Yes. 

The Chairman. Take Chicago: If 850,000 people moved into the 
State of Illinois, the tax structure of the State could not stand up 
under it, could it ? 

Mr. Nail. I do not believe it could. 

The Chairman. It just simply could not be done. Who knows 
when they are going to start to come? Nobody knows. You are a 
citizen of what State ? 

Mr. Nail. Ohio. 

The Chairman. Ohio? 

Mr. Nail. Yes. 

The Chairman. But under the Constitution you are a citizen of 
the other 47 States, are you not ? 

Mr. Nail. Yes. 

The Chairman. We have spent billions through the Congress 
and through the courts to fix the status of iron, steel, coal, and 
other commodities, watching them jealously pass through the States, 
but we have never spent a dime yet to protect human interstate com- 
merce, have we? 

Mr. Nail. When you refer to "interstate commerce," do you refer 
to people as being in interstate commerce? 

The Chairman. I am just using that term figuratively, to desig- 
nate the destitute migrant citizens moving from State to State. 

Mr. Nail. AVhere would be the authority of the Federal Govern- 
ment, under the general welfare clause, or under the commerce 
clause, or what? 

The Chairman. The point is, the only thing you suggest is grants- 
in-aid by the Federal Government. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 901 

Mr. Nail. Under the general welfare clause? 

The Chairman. Yes. . . , ^. , • • ^i 

Mr. Nail. That is the only thm<r I can thmk ot to brnig ni the 
authority of the Federal Government. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. But they are interstate commerce themselves. 

Mr. Nail. I think there has to be something commercial attached 
to it. I do not know that a person coming across a State line woidd 
he considered as interstate commerce. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Nail. I do not think so. 

The Chairman. Well, let us use that term. 

Mr. Nail. Yes. . 

The Chairman. You have not raised any barriers m the 48 btates 
against any other State shipping in oats or wheat or anything else. 
No such barriers have been raised. Why? Because you just snnply 
cannot do it and get away with it. But we are raising barriers 
against the free flow of the human interstate commerce, are we not, 
in the residence laws? 

Mr. Nail. I do not want to contradict you, Mr. Chairman, but 
there are hundreds of State trade barriers to commodities. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Nail. The trend now has been stopped, but it has been in 
that direction. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Nail. From 1932 to 1937 actually there were hundreds of laws 
passed of that nature, particularly with respect to liquor. 

The Chairman. Yes; but the tendency is always to break down 
those barriers, is that not true? 

Mr. Nail. Yes. 

The Chairman. Please do not infer from our questions that we 
are indicating how we feel about it. 

Mr. Nail. No. 

The Chairman. We are trying to find our own way, you see. 

Mr. Nail. Yes. 

The Chairman. With respect to these settlement laws, they range 
as high as 5 years and as low as 6 months. 

Mr. Nail. Yes. 

The Chairman. Congressman Parsons has brought out the fact 
that that is what we are deepl}^ concerned about, and that is why 
we want your idea about it. 

Mr. Nail. The Social Security Board has something very similar 
to a settlement law. They make it necessary for those applying 
for social security out in the States to have lived there 5 years within 
the last 9 years continuously. I think it would be a very good thing 
if the Government could abolish that type of settlement law, if it 
can be referred to as such, as it has in the social security program. 

The Chairman. Thank you. 

Mr. Nail. If you are going to ask the States to remove settlement 
laws, I think it should be done by the Federal Government also. 



902 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

The Chairman. Are there any other questions? (No response.) 
The statement which you have prepared entitled "A Statement on 
Settlement Laws, Interstate Aoreements for the Transfer of De- 
pendent Migrants" will be received and made a part of the record, 
and given the appropriate exhibit number. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Nail. 

Mr. Nail,. Thank you. 

(Whereupon Mr. Nail was excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF JAMES MILLER 

The Chairman. The next witness will be James Miller. Congress- 
man Curtis will examine you, Mr. Miller. 

Mr. Curtis. Will you give vour full name to the reporter, please, 
Mr. Miller? 

Mr. Miller. James Miller. 

Mr. Curtis. Where were j^ou born? 

Mr. Miller. Leith, Scotland. 

Mr. Cltrtis. At what age did you come to this country? 

Mr. Miller, Nineteen. 

Mr. Curtis. When were you born, what year? 

Mr. Miller. 1894. 

Mr. Curtis. You are a citizen of this country? 

Mr. Miller. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. When were you naturalized? 

Mr. Miller. 1923. 

Mr. Curtis. How much of a family do you have? 

Mr. Miller. Two boys, one 21 and one 19. 

Mr. Curtis. Is Mrs, 'Miller living? 

Mr. Miller. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. The children as well as Mrs. Miller are all citizens, 
too? 

Mr. Miller. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Are you working now? 

Mr. Miller. No, sir. 

Mr. Curtis. What was your last job? 

Mr. Miller. At Pittsburgh. 

Mr. Curtis. Pittsburgh, Pa.? 

Mr. Miller. Yes; in the steel mills. 

]Mr. Curtis. What did you do before that? 

Mr. Miller. You mean from the start, from Chicago here? 

Mr. Curtis. No. What was vour last job before your job at 
Pittsburgh? 

]\Ir. Miller. That was at Gary, Ind. 

]Mr. Curtis. How long were you at Pittsburgh ? 

Mr. INIiLLER. About 3 months altogether. 

Mr. Curtis. During what year? 

Mr. jNIiller. That was 1939. 

Mr. Curtis. When did you leave Pittsburgh, what month? 

Mr. Miller. January 1940, to come here; to come back. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 903 

Mr. Curtis. That was only about a 3-month period of employment 
there? 

Mr. Miller. That is rioht. 

Mr. Curtis. During what time did vou work in Gary, Ind. ? 

Mr. Miller. 1937. I went there iii June and that job lasted up 
until January 1938. Then we lived on what we had saved up until 
we became destitute. 

Mr. Curtis. Yes. 

Mr. Miller. I applied there for relief in Indiana. They gave me 
some subsistence there to help us. In the meantime they got in touch 
with Chicago here to find out what our case v.as here. In the mean- 
time I got another position there. 

Mr. Curtis. In Gary? 

Mr. Miller. Yes. That lasted around 6 months. 

Mr. Curtis. Yes. 

Mr. Miller. Then I got laid off of that job. There was nothing 
more doing in the mills there, and no chance of employment in that 
small town there, so my wife and I talked it over, and the two boys 
went into the C. C. C. camp. 

Mr. Curtis. Yes. 

Mr. Miller. At that time we put our furniture in storage in Gary, 
to go east in search of employment. I had heard at the shipyards 
at Camden where my sister is located, that there was work there. 
That is why we went there, to get employm.ent. We went down there 
and made application. They kept saying it would be a month or so, 
or maybe a month and a half before they could use me. 

Mr. Curtis. Yes. 

Mr. Miller. I did not receive employment, so I went from there to 
Boston. I had heard about the shipyards there. My wife, inci- 
dentally, had a sister there. We stayed there for about a month. I 
think it was. Then we started back again, stopping at my sister's 
again in Camden. There was nothing there at the shipyards. We 
came back to Pittsburgh, and got into the mills at Pittsburgh. 

Mr. Curtis. At what are you trained? At what work are you 
trained ? 

Mr. Miller. Powerhouse operator; substation operator and elec- 
trician. 

Mr. Curtis. That was your last permanent job in Chicago, along 
that line^ 

Mr. Miller. Powerhouse operator; yes. 

Mr. Curtis. How many years were you engaged in that work? 

^Ir. Miller. Twelve years, with the Edison Co. 

Mr. Curtis. That work terminated in what year? 

Mr. Miller. 1932. 

Mr. Curtis. They have not called you back ? 

Mr. Miller. No. 

Mr. Curtis. Wlien you applied for aid in Gary, Ind., did Illinois 
consider you a resident of Illinois at that time, or do you know ? 

Mr. Miller. I don't know. 

Mr. Curtis. I see. 



260370 — 40 — pt. 3- 



QQ^ INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. Miller. I don't know. They got in touch with Illinois through 
the Indiana relief, so I don't know what arrangements they made. 
They didn't seem to refuse anything in Indiana at that time. 

Mr. Curtis. Have you had any odd jobs besides those you mentioned 
at Gary and Pittsburgh ? 

Mr. Miller. No. I was sick for about 2 months, with erysipelas, 
since I came back. 

Mr. Curtis. Yes. 

Mr. Miller. I am just getting over it now. 

Mr. Curtis. Did you not do some instructing in the Y. M. C. A.? 

Mr. Miller. That was after I left the Edison Co. 

Mr. Curtis. What was the nature of that work? 

Mr. Miller. Swimming instructor, and boys' work. 

Mr. Curtis. How long did that last? 

Mr. Miller. That was around 2 years. 

Mr. Curtis. Did it provide a sufficient income to take care of your- 
self? 

Mr. Miller. Fourteen dollars a week. That at least let me keep my 
family going. 

Mr. Curtis. AVliat did you do following that work ? 

Mr. Miller. Then I got into W. P. A., in the labor end. I went 
from laboring to safety inspection in W. P. A. 

Mr. Curtis. Altogether how long were you on W. P. A. ? 

Mr. Miller. I can't recall. Around 4 or 5 years, I thmk. 

Mr. Curtis. When did you leave W. P. A. ? 

Mr. Miller. In 1937, to" go to Gary. 

Mr. Curtis. You had a chance to go to Gary ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes. I heard they were picking up. I ran down to 
Gary and got employment there, and started to work in Gary. We 
moved our furniture down to Gary. 

Mr. Curtis. Yes. 

Mr. Miller. I was going back and forth on the I. C, but it was too 
far to travel. It took me 21/2 hours each way to go back and forth. 

Mr. Curtis. What did they pay jou in Gary ? 

Mr. Miller. $5.50 to start in. I got 6 days a week, though. 

Mr. Curtis. Have you drawn any unemployment compensation ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. How long did that run? 

Mr. Miller. What do you mean? 

Mr. Curtis. Over how many weeks did you draw it, or are you still 
drawing it? 

Mr. Miller. No. That is all over. I drew from Gary, or from In- 
diana. I had, I think it was, only $29 from Pittsburgh. 

Mr. Curtis. Have you had any work of any kind since you left 
Pittsburgh? 

Mr. Miller. No, sir. 

Mr. Curtis. Are your boys still in a C. C. C. camp ? 

Mr. Miller. The oldest one is. 

Mr. Curtis. His age is 19, you say? 

Mr. Miller. Twenty-one. 

Mr. Curtis. Where is your other boy? 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 905 

Mr, Miller. He is with us at liome. 

Mr. Curtis. Did the boys get through higli school ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Now, Mr. Miller, you in search of work have gone 
through quite a number of States, have you not ? 

Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Curtis. In your opinion, what causes individuals to go from 
one State to another, those who have found it necessary to be upon 
relief? Do you think it is becau,se of their seeking a job, or did you 
run into anyone who was hunting better and more abundant relief? 

Mr. Miller. No. It was in quest of Mork that I went. 

Mr. Curtis. I understand that you did, but in your contacts, in 
making all these tries for a job 

Mr. ISIiLLER. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Is it your opinion that is the general cause? 

Mr. Miller. Well, the men I have spoken to on the way have said 
that they went for work. 

Mr. Curtis. Yes. 

Mr. Miller. They were all looking for woik. They wanted work. 

Mr. Curtis. Yes. 

Mr. Miller. At the steel mills and shipyards, it was all the same. 
They were looking for work. 

Mr. Curtis. Did you ever have any difficulty in crossing any State 
line? 

Mr. Miller. No. 

Mr. Curtis. Did anyone inquire of you where you were going or 
whether you liad money to support yourself? 

Mr. MiijjER. No. 

Mr. Curtis. They never did? 

Mr. Miller. No." 

Mr. Curtis. In visiting these various cities in search of work, did 
you contact employment agencies? 

Mr. Miller. Not employment agencies: no. The mills themselves. 

Mr. Curtis. The mills themselves? 

Mr. Miller. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. No public or private employment agency urged you to 
go to any particular place? 

Mr. Miller. No. 

Mr. Curtis. What relief, other than work relief, have you received 
here in Chicago, either public or private? 

Mr. Miller. Before I left Chicago, that was when I went on 
W. P. A., through that relief. Since I came back, in 1940 here, I went 
to the public relief, and they said I wasn't a resident here any more, 
because my furniture is in storage in Gary. They said they couldn't 
do anything there, so I went to the United Charities. They looked 
into the case, into my record, and they have given me aid. 

Mr. Curtis. Yes. 

Mr. Miller. On top of that, my boy had sent in $22 a month from 
the C. C. C. That supplemented the rest, and kept us going. 

Mr. Curtis. Yes. 



QQg INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr Miller. We are in a one-room place, right now— my ^^•ife, my 
bov and I The last 2 ^Yeeks my wife had obtamed employment 
throngh the charities, so we are on our own at the present tnne 

Mr Curtis. In other words, you have been confronted with this 
propositi, that had you stayed in Chicago and not tried to find 
private employment , 

ATr Mtt.ler I could still have had reliet. 

Mr C™s" To take care of vourself and the family, you would 
have quaWied' for relief, but by ctoing your best to find work you have 
been penalized? 

Mr. Miller. Yes. 

fi: S™R Thalls ngi^ We can't understand it. Both of our 
bovs was bom and raised here and went through the public schools. 
TheyXn't know what to make of it. They don't know where their 
home is, here or somewhere else. n.-r^r<i 

Mr Curtis Altogether vou only spent 3 months m Gary? 

Mr. Miller. That was in Pittsburgh. 

Mr Curtis How long did you stay m Cjary « a ^ i. 

Mr*. M^Sr. From June 1937 up until, I think it was, September- 
no ; June 1938 it was when we left Gary. 

Mr. Cltrtis. It was about a year, then ( 

Mr. C™: But when you went down there you still considered 
Chicago your home ? 

Mr. Miller. Oh, yes. „ ., , ^ ^ ,,^<i 

Mr. Curtis. You moved the family down to save cartaie ( 

Mr. Miller. Yes. 

ATi* r^TTRTm T scG*- /* 

Mr Miller. We tried to locate a flat or apartment here on the far 
South Side so we could still be residents here, but we couldn t find 
one to suit, so it would take a shorter time to go back and forth on 
the Illinois Central. Places was hard to get m Gary, but we finally 
got a flat there. We figured it would be better to live there, where we 
were making our money, the same as m Chicago. 

Mr Curt?s We are very glad that vou came here. 1 our experience 
is illustrative of some of the problems facing the Federal Government 
in trying to do what is best and right in similar cases. I have no 
further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Miller. 
(Whereupon Mr. Miller was excused.) 
The Chairman. Karen and Kathryn Lee. 

TESTIMONY OF KAREN AND KATHRYN LEE 

The Chairman. Congressman Sparkman will interrogate you. 

Mr. Sparkman. What is your name ? 

Miss Karen Lee. ]V[iss Karen Lee. 

Mr. Sparkman. K-a-r-e-n? 

Miss Karen Lee. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. L-e-e? 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 907 

Miss Karen Lee. Yes. 

Mr, Sparkman. What is your name? 

Miss Kathryn Lee. Kathryn Lee. 

Mr. Sparkman. You are sisters ? 

Miss Karen Lee. Yes. 

Miss Kathryn Lee. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Where do you live ? 

Miss Karen Lee. At the Salvation Army Emergency Home. 

Mr. Sparkman. Here in Chicago ? 

Miss Karen Lee. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. How long have you been in Chicago? 

Miss Karen Lee. One week yesterday. 

Mr, Sparkman, Just a week ? 

Miss Karen Lee. Yes, 

Mr. Sparkman, Where did you come from ? 

Miss Karen Lee. St. Louis. 

Mr, Sparkman. Is St. Louis your original home ? 

Miss Karen Lee. No. 

Miss Kathryn Lee. Kansas City, 

Miss I^REN Lee, Kansas City. 

Mr, Sparkman. Speaker louder, please. 

Miss Karen Lee. All right. 

Mr. Sparkman, How old are you, Karen ? 

Miss Karen Lee, Twenty. 

Mr. Sparkman. And you, Kathryn? 

Miss Kathryn Lee. Eighteen. 

Mr, Sparkman. When did you leave Kansas City ? 

Miss Karen Lee. I was 14. 

Miss Kathryn Lee. I was 12. 

Mr. Sparkman. Where have you been since that time ? 

Miss Karen Lee. St. Louis, Mo. 

Mr. Sparkman. I could not hear you. 

Miss Karen Lee, St. Louis, Mo. 

Mr. Sparkman, Why did you leave home ? 

Miss Karen Lee. Well, to tell the truth, I was kicked out. 

Mr. Sparkman. You mean out of the family? 

Miss Karen Lee. Yes, 

Mr, Sparkman. Out of the family life? 

Miss Karen Lee, Yes, 

Mr, Sparkman. What was it — your mother ? 

Miss Karen Lee. Stepfather. 

Mr. Sparkman. By your stepfather? 

Miss Karen Lee. Yes, 

Mr, Sparkman, Is that true of both of you ? 

Miss Kathryn Lee. Yes. 

Miss Karen Lee. Yes, 

Mr, Sparkman, Wliat schooling did you liaA'e, Karen? 

Miss Karen Lee. I had 3iA years of high-school education. 

Mr. Sparkman. What did you have, Kathryn? 

Miss Kathryn Lee. I only went to eighth grade. 



908 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



Mr, Sparkman. Had you gone to eighth grade before you left Kansas 
City? 

Miss Kathkyn Lee. No. 

Mr. Sparkman. You did some of that after you left there? 

Miss K.\THRYN Lee. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. How about you ? Did you have any schooHng after 
you left Kansas City, Karen? 

Miss Karen Lee. Yes ; 21/2 years. 

Mr. Sparkman. Where was that, in St. Louis? 

Miss Karen Lee. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Did you spend all of your time in St. Louis? 

Miss Karen Lee. We have traveled around a little bit. We have 
been many places since we have been in St. Louis. 

Mr. Sparkman. In other words, you more or less established your- 
selves in St. Louis? 

Miss K^REN Lee. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. And the other places you have just been for a short 
time ? 

Miss KapuEN Lee. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. To what extent have you traveled around ? 

Miss Karen Lee. I have been in California for almost a month. 
Then we were in Florida for awhile. 

Mr. Sparkman. How long did you stay in California? 

Miss Karen Lee. Well, almost 2 months. 

Mr. Sparkman. What were you doing there? 

Miss Kx\REN Lee. Well, just looking at the town. 

Mr. Sparkman. You did not get any job? 

Miss Karen Lee, Well, I had one, just for a short time. 

Mr. Sparkman. What kind of work? 

Miss Karen Lee. Housework. 

Mr. Sparkman. What kind of work have you done in St. Louis ? 

Miss Karen Lee. Well, housework, or usually as a waitress in some 
tavern or cafe. 

Mr. Sparkman, Kathryn, what kind of work have you done? 

Miss Kathryn Lee, I have had waitress work. 

Mr. Sparkman. In St. Louis? 

Miss Kathryn Lee. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Are you working here ? 

Miss Kathryn Lee. Not working right now ; no. 

Mr. Sparkman. You are not working, either, Karen ? 

Miss Karen Lee. No, sir. 

Mr. Sparkman. You are staying at the Salvation Army emergency 
home ? 

Miss Karen Lee. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. How did you happen to get there ? 

Miss Karen Lee. Well, we were at a park, in Douglas Park, which 
is near Cicero. An officer found us there. He took us to the emer- 
gency home, the Salvation Army emergency home. That was 1 week 
ago Sunday, yesterday. We have been staying there ever since. 

Mr. Sparkman. How did you happen to come to Chicago? 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 909 

Miss K.\REN Lee. Well, we heard there was work up here, plenty of 
work up here. There wasn't any in St. Louis that we could find. 

Mr. Sparkman. How did you come from St. Louis ? 

Miss Karen Lee. Hitchhiked. 

Mr. Sparkman. When you went to California, did you do the same 
thing ? 

Miss Karen Lee. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Sparkman. Have all of your travels been by hitchhikmg? 

Miss K^vREN Lee. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Ordinarily, how would you travel ? In other words, 
what kind of rides would you get ? 

Miss Karen Lee. Mostly they are truck drivers. 

Mr. Sparkman. Have both of you stayed together all of the time? 

Miss Karen Lee. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Do you plan to go back to St. Louis? 

Miss Karen Lee. No. 

Miss Kathryn Lee. No. 

Mr. Sparkman. You do not want to go back ? 

Miss Kathryn Lee. No. 

Miss Karen Lee. There is nothing there. 

Miss Kathryn Lee. There is nothing for us down there. 

Mr. Sparkman. Do you want to go back to Kansas City? 

Miss Kathryn Lee.* No. We want to stay in Chicago. 

Mr. Sparkman, Is that true with you, Karen ? 

Miss Karen Lee. Yes. I want to be anywhere where I think I will 
be able to find a decent job. 

Mr. Sparkman. What would you like to do ? 

Miss Karen Lee. Right now, I think I would scrub steps. 

Mr. Sparkman. You would do anything to make a living? 

Miss Karen Lee. Yes. 

Miss Kathryn Lee. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Honorably? 

Miss Karen Lee. Yes. 

Miss Kathryn Lee. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Do you have any desire to do any more school 
work ? 

Miss Karen Lee. No, sir. My ambition was to become a doctor, 
but I think that is out now. 

Mr. Sparkman. Do vou aspire toward any more school work, 
Kathryn? 

Miss Ivathryn Lee. No, sir. 

Mr. Sparkman. Wliat kind of work do you want to do? 

Miss Kathryn Lee. Waitress work. 

Mr. Sparkman. If you could find a waitress job in a good place, 
that is what you would be looking for? 

Miss Kathryn Lee. No tavern; just a restaurant, or something 
like that. 

Mr. Sparkman. Have you ever asked for relief anywhere ? 

Miss Karen Lee. We don't want relief. 

Miss Kathryn Lee. No, sir. 

Mr. Sparkman. You are not looking for relief? 



giQ INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Miss Kathryn Lee. No. 

Miss Karen Lee, No. 

Mr. Sparkman. You are looking for work? 

Miss Kathryn Lee. Work. 

Miss Karen Lee. Work. 

Mr. Sparkman. Have yon ever had any difficulty in going from one 
State to another? I mean, has any city or State ever tried to send 
you back to your home? 

Miss Karen Lee. No, sir. 

Miss Kathryn Lee. No. 

Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Chairman, I think that is all. 

The Chairman. So you want to be a doctor, Karen ? 

Miss Karen Lee. Yes. 

The Chairman. Did you ever study medicine or anything of that 
kind ? 

Miss Karen Lee. No. So far I have not. I have always wanted 
to, when I could. 

The Chairman. Don't give it up entirely. You never can tell when 
the breaks might be in your favor. Many people have been just as 
poor as you are, and still have made a success in the profession which 
they intended to adopt. 

When you made the trip to California, where did you stay at 
nights ? 

Miss Karen Lee. Well, generally in a park. 

The Chairman. That is, you slept out in the open ? 

Miss Karen Lee. We never slept. We just stayed out. 

The Chairman. You did not sleep? 

Miss Karen Lee, No. 

Mr. Curtis. Is it too cold to sleep in California ? 

Miss Karen Lee. It isn't too cold, but we were afraid of tramps. 

The Chairman. How many nights did you and your sister sleep 
that way, if you did sleep? 

Miss Karen Lee. Oh, I wouldn't want to start counting. 

The Chairman. Generally you went to parks at night? 

Miss Karen Lee. Yes. 

The Chairman. Is that the idea? 

Miss Karen Lee. .Yes. 

The Chairman. How long were you in Cicero? 

Miss Karen Lee. Oh, we were just there for one night. 

The Chairman. Is that where the policeman found you, in the 
park ? 

Miss Karen Lee. Yes, sir. 

The Chairman. Who directed you to the Salvation Army? 

Miss Karen Lee. First they took us to the — he called a sergeant. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Miss Karen Lee. He came and took us to the police station. They 
asked us a few questions. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Miss Karen Lee. Then they took us to the Salvation Army emer- 
gency home. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 911 

The Chairman. We had two girls at the iS^ew York hearing simi- 
hir to you and your sister. I think they had covered probably 26 
States out of the 48. They adopted the practice of going and re- 
porting to the police station, and they said they never had failed in 
having the policemen take care of them, and seeing that they got a 
room. I am not giving you that as a suggestion if you start out 
again, or anything of that kind. I am just telling you what I heard. 
Is there anything further ^^ 

Mr. Curtis. Have either of you received aid through a private 
charity organization or through some branch of the Government 
before you were picked up here in Chicago ? 

Miss' Karen Lee. This is the first time in our life anybody ever 
helped us out. 

Mr. Curtis. It has been 6 years now that you have been out on 
your own? 

Miss Karen Lee. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Curtis, The first place you went when you left Kansas City 
was St. Louis? 

Miss Karen Lee. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Curtis. Did you have any relatives there? 

Miss Karen Lee. No, sir. 

Mr. Curtis. Did you know anybody? 

Miss Karen Lee. No, sir. That is the first time I think I was 
ever in St. Louis. 

Mr. Curtis. You were 14? 

Miss Karen Lee. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. She was 12? 

Miss Karen Lee. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Did you get work right away? 

Miss KLaren Lee. Housework. 

Miss Kathryn Lee. Housework. 

Mr. Curtis. You did? 

Miss Karen Lee. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Did the school authorities ever check up on you to 
see why you were not in school ? 

Miss Karen Lee. We were, when we could be. 

Mr. Curtis. You went to school after you got to St. Louis? 

Miss Kathryn Lee. Yes. 

Miss Karen Lee. We went to school. We got a job working morn- 
ings and evenings and going to school in the day. 

Mr. Curtis. What agencies helped you to find such a job? 

Miss Karen Lee. We just looked at the ads in the paper. 

Mr. Curtis. Is your mother still living? 

Miss Karen Lee. No, sir. We heard they were killed — we read it 
in a newspaper later on, about 2 years after we were in St. Louis, 
that they were killed in an automobile accident. 

Mr. Curtis. Your mother and stepfather? 

Miss Karen Lee. My mother and stepfather. 

Miss Kathryn Lee. He used to drink a lot, you know. He was a 
reckless driver. That is how we are sure that happened. 

Mr. Curtis. Were there any children besides you? 



9J2 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Miss Kafen Lee. No, sir. 
Mr. Curtis. You have no brothers or sisters? 
Miss Karen Lee. No. 
Miss Kathryn Lee. No. 
Mr. Curtis. That is all. 

Tlie Chairmax. Thank 5^011, Karen and Kathryn. Thank you 
very much. 

(Whereupon, Karen and Kathryn Lee were excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF DOROTHY B. DE LA POLE, STAFF ASSOCIATE, 
NATIONAL TEAVELEHS AID ASSOCIATION 

The Chairmax. The next witness will be Miss Dorothy B. de la 
Pole. Congressman Parsons will interrogate you. 

Mr. Parsons. Give your name, address, and the association with 
which you are connected, Miss de la Pole. 

Miss de la Pole. Dorothy B. de la Pole, staff associate, National 
Travelers Aid Association, New York. 

Mr. Parsons. You have submitted quite a voluminous statement 
here for the record which the committee will go over in detail. From 
what I have read of it, it seems to be a very fine statement of the 
work in which you have been engaged. I think it will be very helpful 
to the committee. 

Miss DE LA Pole. Thank you. 

(The statement referred to is as follows:) 

Statement by Dorothy B. de la Pole, Staff Associate, National 
Teavelebs Aid Association 

introduction 

The settlement laws of the various States result iu the ueeds of a migi'aut 
or nonresident person, who applies for assistance in a strange community, being 
considered first in relation to the length of time he has lived iu that community 
and only secondarily on the basis of his actual needs. The settlement law of 
a State is designed to clarify and designate the financial responsibility of the 
various towns, cities, counties within that State and of the State itself in 
respect to destitute persons. In the nature of State legislation, it does not and 
cannot reach beyond State boundaries to take into account the practical reality 
that i)ersons move across State lines as well as within State boundaries. The 
result has been a body of legislation which, taken together, presents extreme 
variation both in legislative provisions and in the interpretation of these pro- 
visions, and the lack of coordination and of reciprocal provisions among them 
produce confusion, inequalities, and inconsistencies which make settlement 
one of the great obstacles in meeting the problem of the migrant. 

For many years practicing social workers and other students of this problem 
have been trying to find ways of overcoming these difficulties either by the 
elimination of the concept of legal settlement as a basis of eligibility for public 
relief or, as a compromise, by the enactment of uniform settlement legislation 
by all of the States. In spite of the considerable activity in this direction, 
however, settlement legislation has continued to be made more restrictive. 
Reference to exhibit A attached, "Summary of State Settlement Laws Showing 
Changes from January 1938 to October 1939," shows that during 22 months 
14 States made clianges in requirements to gain or to lose settlement, and of 
these there were 7 States which changed both requirements. In general, these 
changes are more restrictive ; requirements for gaining settlement increased ; 
requirements for retaining settlement once gained are, with one or two ex- 



INTEKSTATE MIGRATION 913 

ceptions, made less definite or less protective by tbe introduction, for example, 
of "intent" as a basis for determining whether a person left a community with 
the intention of not returning, in which event settlement was automatically and 
immediately relinquished. 

Scope and plan of legal settlement study. — In order to gather factual material 
which would reveal the present operation of the settlement laws — the extent 
to which they work for or against the reasonable adjustment of persons who 
are nonresidents in the community in which they apply for help — the National 
Travelers Aid Association enlisted the cooperation of public and private 
agencies in 15 communities earlier this year in a study of cases of nonresidents 
in which service involved settlement factors. 

It was not practical to conduct a Nation-wide study which would include a 
report of all settlement cases served during a selected period throughout the 
country and thereby show the total extent of the problem, but in order that 
the findings might include information on the various situations encountered 
State by State and regionally and provide a cross-section view, care was given 
in selection of the communities which were invited to participate. Considera- 
tions weighed in selection of cities were geographic and regional representation, 
the inclusion of cities in States with recently increased or restrictive require- 
ments, and of cities which were known to be experiencing current difficulty 
either because of a new law in that State or because of conflict with laws 
of the States from which a majority of clients came. The cities finally selected 
were Chicago, Cincinnati, Houston, .Jacksonville, Kansas City (Mo.), Memphis, 
Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Salt Lake City, San Francisco, Sioux City, St. Louis, 
Washington (D. C), Westchester County (N. Y.), and Worcester. 

Fifty-seven agencies, both public and private, sectarian and nonsectarian, par- 
ticipated, and it may be of interest to know tlie numbers of each type of agency : 

Num her 
Organization : reported 

Public relief agencies 22 

Traveler^ Aid Societies 14 

American Red Cross chapters 5 

Family agencies (nonsectarian) 5 

Salvation Army 3 

Hospitals 2 

Jewish agencies 2 

Juvenile courts 2 

Catholic agencies 1 

Prison relief society 1 

Total 57 

During February 1940 each of these 57 agencies reported, on a schedule provided 
for this purpose, each new nonresident case in which inquiry regarding the 
person's settlement was made through telegram or correspondence with another 
community. The schedules were held by the agencies until April 15, 1940, to 
afford time for conclusive replies regarding settlement to be received and for plans 
to be worked through in relation to these replies. 

COMPOSITION OF CASES 

'Number of cases. — Seven hundred and fifty-five cases were reported as a result 
of this procedure, and these have been analyzed and the significant findings are 
presented here. 

As has been already indicated, these 755 cases reported by 15 communities can- 
not be taken as representative of the extent of the problem, but they do show 
the character of the problems met and the ramifications and variations in settle- 
ment laws as well as the complex, human situations to which these laws must be 
related in their administration. 

Representation of States. — Each of the 4S States, the District of Columbia, 
and Puerto Rico was represented in the State of presumed settlement of these 
755 cases, which does indicate that the selection of cities was successful in pro- 
viding a widespread distribution. In addition, there was 1 case from Mexico. 



914 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Since the scope was limited, the number of cases reported as having come from 
each State cannot be regarded as a measure of the extent to which the various 
States contribute to the migrant problem, but with this reservation in mind it is 
of some interest to examine table 9, "Number of cases, by State of supposed 
settlement," which shows that in 85 instances the communication regarding set- 
tlement was sent to a community in the same State as the city reporting; in 
other words, intrastate cases ; of the remaining 663, communications were sent 
to (fTS communities in other States ( including Puerto Rico, 1 ; Mexico, 1 ; and 
4 in which the name of the State was not given). 

Analysis of cases.— -There were 1,564 persons in the 755 cases reported, and 
these fall into the following groups : 

Unattached individuals 403 

Male 272 

Female 131 

Individuals in family groups 1, 161 

Adults 592 

Children 569 

Total 1, 564 

It is important to bear in mind when considering these and other figures in 
this report that this is a stvidy of cases involving legal settlement inquiry 
opened during February 1940 and not a study of the transient problem itself 
in these communities for this period. Not all nonresident persons who made 
application for assistance during the period were accepted in most of these 
communities, and of those accepted, in only a fi*action of the cases was inquiry 
into settlement initiated, thereby making the case reportable. 

In order to see more clearly the probable relationsliip of the 755 cases studied 
and of the 1,564 persons in these cases to the general dependent transient 
population from which they were selected, it may be helpful to consider the 
situation reported by one of the cities which participated in the study. 

An example of case selection. — Jacksonville, Fla., submitted certain supporting 
information regarding their general transient problem duriiig the study period 
and accompanied it by a letter from which this is an excerpt : 

"Six agencies in Jacksonville cooperated with the study : Salvation Army, 
Travelers Aid Society, Duval County Hospital, Jewish Welfare Agency, Family 
Welfare Agency. District No. 6 Welfare Board. * * * During February 
1940 these 6 agencies reported 803 new cases, of which 15 were intercity 
inquiries ' and the rest nonresident individuals and families applying for 
assistance. 

"Surprising though it was to all participating agencies to learn the total 
number of nonresident or transient families and individuals with whom they 
had had contact during February 1940, and the amount of relief given 
($1,135.88), the intake and expenditures were only nonnal for a winter month. 
It is believed that these cases represent only a part, although what part we 
do not know, of the borderline relief nonresident families and individuals in 
Jacksonville or en route through Jacksonville during the month. Churches, 
private charitable societies, fraternal organizations, and individuals helped 
many transients, but there has been no way of determining the extent of this 
assistance. Others, knowing the very limited assistance available, have made 
their own plans by pawning, selling, or trading possessions to fulfill their needs. 
Still others have panhandled, begged, or engaged in petty rackets for what they 
needed. There is always an increase in the number of petty thievery cases 
and those arrested on vagrancy charges during the winter months. 

"Undoubtedly the intake of these six agencies would have been much greater 
but for the restrictions placed upon them by policies and limited funds. It is the 
policy of four of the agencies * * * to accept only residents of this county ; 
only two ■ of the six, the Salvation Army and the Travelers Aid Society, are set 
up to care for nonresidents." 



1 Letters of inquiry from agencies in other States in wliich former Jacksonville residents 
were stranded. 

- Both supported by private funds. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 915 

From the 803 cases, the 15 intercity inquiries should be deducted for our 
present purposes in order to secure the number of applications made to Jackson- 
ville agencies, a figure of 788. These 788 applications fall into 3 categories : 
Those who received apparently adequate service and relief in relation to their 
needs ; those who received emergency relief or care only ; and those who were 
rejected and received neither relief nor service. 

Table 3 shows that of the 788 applications, 49 were accepted for adequate 
service and relief, 650 were accepted for emergency care only, and 89 were 
rejected. The problems which brought the person to the agency have been 
grouped and divided into — 

Case-work service and relief. 

Medical care. 

Of 142 who requested medical care, 15 were ho.spitalized, 17 were registered in 
the out-patient clinics, 57 were given emergency care, and 53 were rejected. Of 
646 who requested either relief or assistance in returning home, continuing their 
journey, an opportunity for adjustment locally, or some combination of these, 17 
were accepted for complete service, which included necessary relief and inquiry 
into settlement ; and of the rest, 593 were given emergency relief, which, in 463 
instances, for example, was limited to overnight lodging without meals, and 36 
were rejected. 

The 17 cases which were accepted for adequate case work and relief service, 
out of a total of 646 applications in this group, suggest a very real attempt to 
make existing resources meet the needs judged to be most urgent. These cases 
consist of 2 boys and 2 girls under 16 ; 6 boys and 1 girl under 20 ; a sick man. 
37 : and 5 family groups — an elderly couple, a mother with 6 children, a mother 
with 5 children, parents with 4 children, and a 24-year-old father and 19-year-old 
mother with 2 children under 5 years old C17). 

As we look now at the figures at the beginning of this section and in table 2 on 
composition of cases, the Jacksonville example will serve to remind us that, in 
the absence of facilities for provision for the needs of the nonresident group in 
communities, the number of cases and the age. sex, and family composition of 
those cases reported will be affected by the limitations in local resources for care 
pending the working out of plans with the applicant, of which plans inquiry into 
settlement would generally have been an element. 

The unattached individuals. — Sex: There were reported in the 408 unattached 
individuals almost half as many females as males, 131 to 272. This propor- 
tion does not represent the relative needs of these 2 groups, nor the proportion 
of unattached women to men in the nonresident population. It is inconsist- 
ent with census returns on transient and migrant groups, since these in- 
variably show an almost negligible proportion of single women to single men 
The explanation will be found in the selective process which gives preference 
to applications from women and girls over those from able-bodied single men 

Ages: The age range of the unattached individuals is from 7 to 85 years 
Table 4 gives the age distribution for these cases, bv age groups and bv citie= 
The relative uniformity of the numbers in the several age groups, rather than 
the marked increases normally to be expected in those of middle age a^ain 
suggests a .selective tendency toward the young and the old, or a reluctance to 
accept for possible return home the adult nonresident man. 




u.sually following the settlement of the father. Therefore, the 'verification of 
a minor's settlement is secondary to the discoverv of the settlement of the 
adult through which his ii^ derived, a basis which mav be more obscure and 
a process which, therefore, may be more involved than for an adult capable 
of acquiring settlement independently. Where such questions enter in as 
the father'.*? death or desertion, the minor's legitimacv or his emancipation 
or his guardianship, or if the father's settlement is itself in doubt the diffi- 
culties are multiplied. 

.4 firerf.— Twenty-two persons over 65 were reported: 10 men. the oldest 85- 
and 12 women, the oldest 84. The .settlement of persons over 65 years of age 
presents, .since the enactment of the .social security program, an anomalous 
situation, because it is frequently true that, regardless of legal settlement the 



916 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

person can meet the residence requirements for old-age assistance by showing 
a residence of 5 years out of the last 9. A case in point is that of John B : 

Mr. B was born in Chicago and lived there for 59 years, when, in 1934, 
he secTired work and moved to Wheeling, 111., and remained there until 
the work ended in October 1937. He then returned to Chicago and on 
February 13, 1940 (2 years and 2 mouths later), applied for public as- 
sistance. He was held ineligible because of loss of settlement in Chicago. 
Mr. B was now 66 years old ; he applied for old-age assistance and was 
accepted. (It shouhl be noted that Mr. B had never been out of the State 
of Illinois and that he had left Chicago only to accept employment.) 

The families. — The 352 families included 100 couples without children and 
252 family group.s of one or both parents with from 1 to 10 children. Table 6, 
"Number of family groups, by number of children in families,*' shows that 
whereas for the most part the families were small, there were 20 families 
with 5 to 10 children. 

The children. — One of the matters of grave concern to all persons interested 
in this problem is the exposure and exploitation of children incurred by 
migration of families. The child-labor problem among migratory and seasonal 
workers has been for some time the special concern of governmental and 
private agencies. Any program for infant welfare and health must be con- 
cerned with the number of very young children who are reported in this 
sample of cases. 

Table 2, "Total number of persons in 755 cases reported by 15 cities," shows 
the age groups into which these children are classified. Thei'e were 60 chil- 
dren 1 year of ;ige and vmder ; there were 146 of preschool age — one through 
5 years — or 206 little children. In the years when most children in this country 
are expected to be in school (6 through 15 years), we find in this small group 
of families 269 children, so that 475 children below the age at which children 
are expected properly to be employed were on the road with their parents. 
Only 90 of the 569 were 16 years or over. 

Although these children are unable to establish settlement in their own right, 
they are caught, nevertheless, in the net of settlement-law requirements, since 
securing for them those things which we believe all children should have — food, 
shelter, security, health, education, friends, and a reasonably happy family setting 
in which to develop — will depend in a large measure upon the decision regarding 
the settlement of their parents. 

There are some families in this group in which parents and children are all so 
young as to be regarded sociallj% if not legally, as minors : 

John and Nellie M, 22 and 17 years old, infant, 7 months : Traveling ^ith 
Mr. M's father, who has settlement in Blank, Iowa, hut only seasonal work 
there. The young family has settlement in Kansas but refuses to consider 
returning there, preferring to go on to father's place of settlement. Assistance 
could only be given to settlement in Kansas, so they continued on their way 
unassisted except for one meal each. 

Marion T, 19, unmarried, and infant 5 weeks : Her settlement, being a minor 
and unmarried, will be that of her father. However, her parents were mar- 
ried 3 months after her birth, and by the law of her State an illegitimate child 
is not legitimated by tlie sul)sequent marriage of the parents unless adopted 
by the father. It has been impossible to determine whether adoption took 
place. The father deserted several years ago; his present whereabouts un- 
known. The settlement of the girl's mother (which the girl would take if no 
settlement can be derived from the father) will depend upon the husband's 
settlement and whether she has established a separate settlement since his 
desertion. It is not surprising to learn that this case was still active at tlie 
end of the study with investigation continuing. 

One may well raise a question regarding this last case, as many others, as to 
whether from the standpoint of the future welfare of this young mother and her 
child primary consideration should be given to the legal or to the social aspects 
of the situation. The discovery of a legal settlement for this young woman may 
mean the acceptance of legal responsibility for her and her child by some com- 
munity in which she has never lived and in which she has no ties which might 
help her in facing a difficult future. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 917 

Examples of difficulties met in planning for people m accordance tvith settlement 
laws.— The difficulty both for the agency and for the nonresident person wliich 
meeting requirements of the settlement laws presents is here partly illustrated: 

Smtraes of inqviry for rerifivatioii of settlement. — It is a general practice to 
hold the applicant responsible for supplying information upon which settlement 
may be verified. In many States, either by law or administrative policy, acceptable 
evidence is limited to some form of documentary proof, and the applicant may 
experience honest difficulty in producing, for example, rent receipts, utilities re- 
ceipts, motor-vehicle licenses, marriage certificate, divorce certificate, and in recall- 
ing previous addresses by specific dates, street number, and name of landlord, over 
an unbroken period sufficient to prove settlement. People do not usually compile 
complete records of this type of information, and particularly would this be true 
of the person who is away from home. Memory may serve for furnishing details 
for 1 or 2 years back, but when, as in one case in this study, settlement is held to 
be dependent upon the ability of a man to show a continuous period of residence 
for the year 1932, at which time he was unmarried and living in various rooming 
houses, it is not surprising that he would not be able to do this. 

It must be borne in mind that an applicant may be required to furnish evidence 
for proof of settlement in some other community, or of settlement in the com- 
munity of application, in order to prove his eligibility for local public relief. 
In one instance, in a community which required 1 year of continuous residence 
immediately preceding application, a long-drawn-out investigation succeeded in 
piecing together 16 mouths of continuous residence with the exception of one 
10-day period which fell in the 16-month period in such a way as not to leave 
an unbroken 12-month period of residence. With this gap, it was impossible to 
establish settlement and eligibility for relief. 

Comments on schedules emphasize the difficulties of investigation: "Delay in 
establishing settlement as period to be verified, August li^CS to August 1926, is 
so many years ago that records of renting agents are not available, and other 
verifications difficult to obtain" ; "Correspondence to places where man received 
previous care, to former employers, to the Navy Department, collecting data for 
opinion as to settlement (probably none or New York City because of service 
on ships registered there)." This 29-year-old man's physical condition is de- 
scribed as follows : "Has multiple sclerosis with probably some mental deteriora- 
tion. Does not realize he is permanently incapacitated. Staggers of£ on crutches. 
C;(jnririually in penitentiary for vagrancy, but refuses permanent institutional 
care. He 'will have to accept help soon and will need it as long as he live.**, 
including h'^ispital care. Possibly eligible for care in soldiers' home if it can be 
proved." 

Intent. — The loss of settlement by leaving the State with intent not to return 
is provided for in the statutes of several States. There are several disadvantages 
to legislation of this kind, foremost of which is the difficulty in finding objective 
means of determining intent as well as the necessity which may quite legiti- 
mately arise for a person's changing his plans after leaving home. 

Mr. and Mrs. R. and their son, 24. had lived in a Pennsylvania city for a 
number of years and were receiving public relief there. The son qualified 
on a Federal civil-service examination, and through a misunderstanding 
expected to receive an appointment. The family welcomed this as an 
opiwrtunity to become self-supporting. They sold their household goods 
to provide money for transportation and went to Washington where it was 
found that no definite prospects of a civil-service appointment existed. They 
were held to have lost their settlement in Pennsylvania because of their 
intent not to return. The city of Washington, D. C, has no provision through 
public funds for the relief of nonresident persons, and the burden fell on 
the privately supported agency whose limited relief funds were planned 
for the relief of emergency distress and for care of persons pending investi- 
gation for return. 

Francis and Bertha J went from Minnesota to a town in Iowa where Mr. J 
had a prospect of private employment. They made their home temporarily 
with a resident relief family which, automatically, brotight them to the 
attention of the public-relief agency and occasioned correspondence with the 
Minnesota community in an effort to verify settlement there. The Minnesota 
ifommunity denied settlement, with this comment : "Settlement denied on 



gjg INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

basis client has been out of State 3 months with intention of abandoning 
residence." (Mr. J soon found private employment in another Iowa county.) 

Albert and Alice R, 44 and 36 years of age, came to western Iowa from Min- 
nesota, where they stayed with a brother-in-law who was working on Work 
Projects Administration. The woman was fatally ill. Seven communications 
were exchanged in an unsuccessful effort to place responsibility on the Min- 
nesota community. Minnesota officials "believe that he left that State with 
the intention of making his home in another State." They were unable to 
verify the date of his leaving. 

The schedule contains this additional comment : "Family made their own 
arrangements for medical care under a doctoi- not recognized by the county 
medical society. They have arranged to pay for this when the husband 
secures employment." 

The nonresident notice. — Only two or three States, among them, Iowa and South 
Carolina, retain the procedure (familiar in colonial times) of utilizing the non- 
resident notice as a means of preventing newcomers from gaining settlement. In 
the case just referred to of Francis and Bertha J, the Iowa community imme- 
diately served a nonresident notice "to protect local county." This would mean 
that, regardless of the length of time the J family might live in that community, 
the period would not count toward the establishment of settlement. Only by 
appearing before the proper officials and notifying them of his intention to estab- 
lish settlement and satisfying them of his ability for self-support could Mr. J 
begin a period of residence whicli might ultimately lead to the acquisition of set- 
tlement. It is obvious that this elaborate procedure would not be familiar to the 
avei*age person who moves from one community to another seeking employment. 

A nonresident notice was likewise reported as served on a 29-year-old widower 
with a 17-months-old son, who moved to an Iowa town from Illinois. He returned 
to Illinois and found that, regardless of the fact that he had lived in this State 
many years, he could not comply with the 1939 Illinois settlement law which 
requires 3 years' continuous residence without relief immediately prior to appli- 
cation. This man and child were, therefore, without settlement in any place. 

Complex settlement situations. — The several case summaries which follow serve 
to illustrate complications which arise in discovering settlement : 

Mrs. L, 27, and her nephew, 16 months : Mrs. L and her nephew have differ- 
ent settlements ; the woman's husband deserted, his settlement is unknown, 
and there is also a question regarding the legality of the marriage. The 
child's mother was unmarried and is dead. Although Mrs. L has lived in the 
community of application for a considerable length of time, she has not estab- 
lished settlement because her settlement would follow that of her husband. 

John J, 42, and a son and daughter, both under 21 years : The daughter has 
been married and is separated, but not divorced, from her husband. Mr. J has 
lost settlement in his place of foi'mer residence, but his minor son retains set- 
tlement there in accordance with the usual provision that a minor's settle- 
ment is the last settlement of the father. The daughter's settlement cannot 
be determined because her husband's whereabouts and his settlement are inv 
known. The agency caring for this nonresident family has received authori- 
zation to return the son home, but authorization for the father's return has 
been denied. Disposal of this family group in accordance with settlement 
regulations would mean a separate plan for each and a breaking up of the 
family. 

Lawrence and Mary G, 3 children, 9, 4, and 2 years of age, and Mrs. G's 
mother came to a large city in the Southwest because of Mr. G's serious ill- 
ness. The grandmother is separated from her husband, whose whereabouts 
are unknown : therefore his, and consequently, her settlement cannot be veri- 
fied. This raised the question as to whether on the man's recovery the family 
should be returned to their place of settlement while the grandmother re- 
mained nonresident in the reporting community. No decision had been 
reached in this case at the end of the study. 

Mrs. A. and 6 children from 20 to 6 years of age : This case is referred to in 
detail in another section of this report. The settlement issues involved are : 
Mrs. A is not legally married to Mr. A, but he acknowledges paternity to the 
youngest two of her six children. Mrs. A's legal husband, and the father of 
the other children, has a settlement in a New England State. Mrs. A's settle- 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



919 



ment does not follow his because of a provision in the law of that State which 
requires that the wife must have lived with her husband during the period in 
which he acquired settlement. 

Restrictive settlement laws as an influence proniotinp non settlement. — The 
Illinois settlement law. which became effective July 1. 1939, and which requires, 
among its provisions, 3 years' continuous residence without relief immediately 
preceding application in the township of application, has resulted in the rendering 
of a large number of people nonsettled who under the previous settlement law 
would have liad settlement. The agencies participating in Ihe study have sub- 
mitted schedules on cases which illustrate various special problems, and when 
this material did not meet the requirements of the study, it has been considered 
separately. Sixty-one cases submitted by the Chicago Relief Administration 
Transiwrtation Service, for example, have been analyzed and show the influence 
which the present Illinois settlement law has upon increasing the number of 
persons who are without settlement in any place. 

Thirty-six of these 61 cases would clearly have had settlement in Chicago prior 
to July 1, 1939. At least 1-5 more would probably have been considered settled in 
Chicago because of long periods of previous residence broken only by brief periods 
of absence from the township, so that 51 out of the 61 may be considered non- 
settled as a result of the law itself. Some of tliese had lost settlement by moving 
out of the township of Chicago to communities elsewhei-e in the State or within 
Cook County itself: 

Mrs. P, 72, was born in Chicago and lived here all of her life until October 
1938 when slie went to Cicero (Cook County) to make her home permanently 
with her son. In 1 month tlie son died and Mrs. P returned to Chicago. "Wlien 
she applied for assistance after July 1, 1939, she was found to be without 
settlement in any place. 

Martha M had lived in Chicago 17 years. She accepted a domestic position 
in a home in May wood. 111. (in Cook County. 10-cent elevated fare) and 
worked there from March to Deceml^er 1939. When the work ended, she re- 
turned to Chicago. In February 1940 she applied for public relief, and since 
she could not prove her claim that she had retained her room in Chicago dur- 
ing the period of her absence, she was found without settlement and ineligible 
for public relief until December 1942. 

Communities distressed by the problem of meeting tlie needs of nonresident 
persons sometimes naively assume that the problem may be eliminated by increas- 
ing settlement reqv;irements for relief. The experience of Illinois during the past 
year should serve clearly to illustrate that the number of nonsettled persons in- 
creases at least arithmetically and the diffieult,y of investigation with reference to 
settlement increases geometricall,v in proportion to the length of time required t<> 
establish settlement. A practical and humane view will face the reality that a 
law which renders people in need ineligible for assistance does not eliminate the 
people or their need in the community. 

Expense -for relief and transportation. — Agencies were asked to report as com- 
pletely as possible amounts expended on cases from public funds and from private 
funds. Expenditures for institutional care as well as for direct cash disbur.se- 
ments were asked for and amounts expended for transportation were divided by 
source of funds — public, private, and from clients' resources. Various circum- 
stances prevented tlie securing of a complete report of all relief expenditures and 
of a complete break-down in the classifications requested. Insofar as these 
amounts were reported, however, they yield this informatiou : 



Total 



Public 
funcis 



Private 
funds 



Clients' 
resources 



Relief |$8.621. 93 

Transportation 2,282.01 

Institutional care 4,402. 19 

Total 15,306. 13 



$4, 464. 11 
1, 406. 15 



4, 157. 82 
519. 52 



$356. 34 



260370— 40— pt. 3- 



920 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Particular attention sliould be given to tlie fact tliat an almost equal amount 
was expended for relief by private and by public agencies. In four cities in the 
group no public relief expenditure was made since there is in these cities no such 
provision for nonresidents. The limited funds characteristically available to 
privately supported agencies make these agencies unequal to the burden of fur- 
nishing relief on any but the most limited scale. There would seem to be a par- 
ticular responsibility resting on the community which restricts public relief to 
those who can meet its residence requirements for making available neces.sary 
emergency relief and case-work provisions for nonresidents, so that persons who 
do not qualify for relief locally may be returned to the community in which they 
would be eligible for relief. The settlement laws may render nonresident iK>rsons 
ineligible for assistance in the community in which they apply. Lack of adequate 
provision for investigative service and relief pending this inquiry may prevent 
this person's enjoyment of his settlement rights in his own community. The 
information presented from Jaclisonville, Fla., is an excellent example of this. If 
we are to have settlement laws, then it is fair to ask that the people be protected 
in the rights which settlement affords. This would mean the assumption of defi- 
nite responsibility by agencies serving nonresidents for assisting thorn in the 
discovery of place of settlement. This cannot be done without available funds for 
the person's care while correspondence is in progress. 

Administrative expense. — In considering expense in relation to the cases in this 
study, the administrative expense including the cost of correspondence should 
not be overlooked. In connection with the 619 cases in which conclusive replies 
regarding settlement were received, 2,642 communications were exchanged — an 
average of 4.3 a case. It is not possible to suggest an estimate of the cost of this 
volume of correspondence, but back of tlie actual writing of the letters and tele- 
grams must be realized the time and skill required for interviewing, for seeking 
out sources of information and verification through visits and consultation of 
documents. Sometimes the cost of correspondence in these cases has far out- 
weighed the cost of relief provided for the individual or family pending comple- 
tion of the inquiry. A pertinent question which may be well asked is, Does the 
cost of writing 2,642 letters on 619 cases, which resulted in the returning of only 
118 cases to their place of legal settlement with acceptance by the community 
and assurance for their care on return, justify itself? Might the amount of 
money involved in this administrative procedure have produced more lasting 
results for a large group of cases and for all of the conmiunities involved if it 
had been applied to meeting directly needs of these people with return to their 
homes carried through only when it seemed that this would be a desirable and 
constructive plan. 

OUTCOME OF C.\SES IN BEXATTON TO SETIXBMENT STATUS 

Of the 755 cases reported in this study, on which correspondence was carried 
on to determine legal settlement, in 619 cases at the time the study closed, April 
15, 1940, conclusive information regarding settlement had been secured. There 
still remain 136 cases on which, although at least 46 days had elapsed, no con- 
clusive reply had been received. 

These 136 cases are excluded from consideration in this section of the report 
which will be devoted to an analysis of the remaining 619 on which definite set- 
tlement information was available. The details regarding this group of cases are 
presented in table 7. 

Of the group under discussion, there were, at the end of the study, 113 still 
under the care of the reporting agency either because additional effort was being 
made to establish settlement (34) or because the results of the correspondence 
and the clienfs needs made his return to his supposed place of settlement inad- 
visable (79). The remaining 506 cases had been closed by the reporting agency, 
and we find from referring to the table the circumstances under which service was 
discontinued : 

Oases 

Return to place or legal settlement 239 

With authorization 222 

Without authorization 17 

Transferred to another local agency IS 

Adjusted locally (secured employment, etc.) 76 

Lost contact 160 

Other , ^ 13 

Total . 506 



I 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 921 

Retui-ned to legal se<»c»M?»f.— Correspondence directed at discovering the place 
-f.f legal settlement has as its primary object the ultimate return of the client to 
that place. It is therefore important to note that of the 755 cases m which this 
was undertaken only 239 cases, or less than one-third, were returned to place of 

legal settlement. , ^ ,. .^ ,^ ^ 

Criteria for return to settlement.— Since legal settlement by itself does not 
assure a person's satisfactory adjustment in a community the responsible social 
agency, before sending a person to another community, wishes to be assured 
that the community recognizes him as a proper responsibility, that means will 
be available there for assisting the person to, if possible, reest:iblish himself 
on a basis of self-support, or, that failing, for providing for his basic relief and 
health needs. Traditionally a settlement status has carried with it the right to 
relief if in need. Moreover, it is customary that the return of legally settled 
persons be authorized by the home community. In order to eliminate the plan- 
less passing on of destitute nonresident persons from one community to another 
or to the community of claimed settlement, standard social agencies have devel- 
oped and are guided by a code, formerly known as the transportation agreement, 
which requires that before transportation is furnished to another community, 
the client's claim on that community, assurance of provision for his care on 
arrival, and consent for his return will be verified or secured. 

It will be understood, therefore, that the minimum essential criteria which 
good practice requires to safeguard the client and the community will be met by — 

An acknowledgment of the client's settlement status. 

Authorization for his return. 

Assurance of necessary relief on arrival. 

In the light of these criteria, the circumstances under which these 239 cases 
were returned home merit further consideration. 

Settlement verified, return authorized, relief assured. — The first column of 
table 7 shows the sis settlement classifications into which the cases fall on the 
basis of information yielded through correspondence : Settlement verified, return 
authorized, relief assured; settlement verified, return authorized, relief not as- 
sured; settlement verified, return not authorized; settlement not determinable; 
settlement denied ; without settlement in any place. 

Only the first classification meets all three criteria and acknowledged settle- 
ment status, authorization for return and the assurance of relief if needed after 
return. Of the 619 cases, 155, or 25 percent, are classified here, and 104 of these 
were returned home. 

Relief not assured. — The second classification is the largest, with 178 cases, or 
29 percent, reported in which the client's settlement is acknowledged, his return 
authorized, but relief on return is not assured. Actually, in the majority of in- 
stances, the communication from the home community carries the positive in- 
formation that relief will not be available. 

The same number of cases (104) were returned home in this classification as 
were returned in the previous group in which all three criteria were met. While 
proportionately this number is slightly smaller than the number returned with 
the assurance of relief, the small degree to which lack of relief resulted in the 
development of some other plan for the client is significant. It is true that some 
of those returned under these circumstances may have had resources at home in 
family, friends, employment, credit, which would have not in any case required 
their receiving public relief grants, and that these persons may have returned 
willingly and fared well after reaching home. But for the larger number for 
which this was not true, one wonders what was gained for the client, for the 
sending community, and for the home community. 

How long did the person, or family, remain in the home community and under 
what conditions ; did he start out soon again to seek opportunity which he could 
not gain at home, and, if so, would he be less likely to seek and use the assistance 
of a social agency after this experience of being "'transported" under circumstances 
which protected the status of the sending agency but ol^ered no protection for 
him? 

The sending community was, at least temporarily, the gainer by the arrange- 
ment. It was freed of an individual or family under circumstances (authoriza- 
tion of return) which technically placed the sending agency beyond criticism 
from the community of destination. With such a practice generally followed by 



922 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

communities, however, tlie apparent elimination of responsibility for one family 
or individual may prove, instead, to be an exchange of responsibilities. There 
is abundant evidence to support the expectation that the family that has once 
moved to secure better opportunity or to escape unsatisfactory conditions moves 
again when the conditions of the first migration are again encountered. The 
sending of mobile people to communities in which there is no provision for reason- 
able security and opportunity should be considered as a practice which promotes 
migration rather than reduces the necessity for it. 

Settlement verified, return not anthorized. — This classification containing 22 
cases is chiefly interesting because it is contradictory of the assumption that the 
acknowledgment of settlement carries with it the obligation to authorize return 
of the settled person or family to the community. This impression is so widely 
accepted that the inclusion of this classification in the study schedule was con- 
sidered by some persons to be without pertinence. The 22 cases reported in 
this group reveal the intrusion of certain subjective factors into derisions on 
settlement as, for example, the notation with reference to a 19-year-old boy, 
"Return not authorized as boy is delinquent and on probation. Probation officer 
suggests he return by hitchhiking." This is not so much a denial of authority to 
return as an attempt to have the boy return home in the least comfortable, most 
hazardous way, a way having particular disadvantages for a probationer. It will 
not be surprising to know that this boy proceeded from the reporting city hitch- 
hiking, and was later heard from some 600 miles farther from home. This is 
not an isolated instance of the rejection of statutory responsibility on the whim 
of an individual. A 16-year-old mentally retarded boy, whose home was in the 
■same State as in the case just cited, was rejected with the comment, "Boy is 
a behavior problem. Probation officer does not want him returned." Four of 
these 22 cases were returned to their homes regardless of the lack of authori- 
zation. 

Settlement not determinaUe. — The difficulties of determining settlement in 
any but the most simple situation are manifold. They impose a burden of 
responsibility on the client with which it is sometimes beyond his ability to 
cope, they increase the burden of administrative cost on the two or more agencies 
involved in the inquiry to a point of serious financial expense and consume staff 
time which might otherwise be used in direct service to these or other clients 
of the agency. 

The A family, consisting of parents and 6 children ranging from 6 to 20 years 
in age, came to Houston, Tex., in September 1939. They made a down payment 
on a tourist camp, but in a short time Mr. A was arrested on a charge of bigamy 
and returned to an eastern State to stand trial. It developed that the A's were 
not legally married and that the woman's legal husband, Mr. B, was believed to 
be living in a Vermont town, and, apparently, had a settlement there. In an 
effort to discover the legal settlement of "Mrs. A" and her four legitimate and two 
illegitimate children (whose paternity was acknowledged by Mr. A), 22 letters 
were exchanged by 7 agencies in 4 States during the period, February 27 to 
April 15, 1940, and at the close of the study it had been impossible to reach a 
decision. 

The usual rule is that the wife and legitimate children take the settlement of 
the legal husband. Illegitimate children take the settlement of the mother. 
"Mrs. A" had not lived with her husband for at least 9 years and had at no time 
lived in Vermont. The years spent with Mr. A in the State in which he was now 
under arrest were of no significance relative to settlement since it was impossible 
for her to establish settlement in her own right and she was not the legal wife 
of Mr. A. The apparent place of settlement, therefore, seemed to be the settle- 
ment of the legal husband in Vermont. If this could be established for "Mrs. A" 
and the four children, the two illegitimate children would also have Vermont 
settlement through the settlement of their mother. The agency in Houston pro- 
ceeded accordingly. In the Vermont settlement law, Mr. B's wife's settlement did 
not follow his (settlement for his four children probably would have been 
Vermont, but this question was not raised) : 

"A married woman who lived with her husband in a town he last resided in 
for 3 years, supporting himself and family, shall be deemed to have gained a 
residence in such town, and such town shall be liable for her support as a pauper. 
An illegitimate child shall be deemed to have the residence of his mother, and the 
town liable for the support of the mother shall be liable for the support of such 
child (sec. 3919, as amended by No. 76. Public Acts of ]98r), Vermont)." 



LXTEKSTATE MIGRATION 923 

The situatiou which faced the family iu the meautiine in Houstou is described 
iu one of the letters written in a final appeal to the State department of public 
welfare in Vermont : 

"You can easily see the family has no claim whatever on Texas, and we are 
sure that they will suffer as there is no public relief agency here except this one, 
and we are prohibited from assisting nonresident families. Families and indi- 
viduals are udt considered residents here until they have been in Texas con- 
tinuously for 1 year indepeudeut of relief. * * * The relief given by the 
Travelers Aid Society is of a temporary nature, pending the return of families 
to their legal settlement, or working out plans whereby they can maintain 
themselves." 

Settlement denied. — Seventy-five cases, representing 12 percent of the total, 
classify as being denied settlement. Illinois figured prominently in this classifi- 
cation since 19 of these 75 cases were denied settlement by communities in the 
State of Illinois. This group of 75 cases may be considered with the next group. 

Without settlemeiit in any place, for which there are 65 cases reported, or, 
taken together, 140 cases without settlement status. These represent 23 percent 
of the cases on which replies were received. The distinction between the two 
groups is one of finality. In the first group, it will be seen from column 4 that 
activity was continuing iu an effort to fix settlement in some community other 
than the one which denied settlement or to further press claims on the denying 
community, whereas in the latter group are those cases in which all effort to 
discover settlement has been fruitless and activity has been stopped. 

Other. — The remaining 41 cases classified as "Other" include special situa- 
tions of which the largest group of cases involve minors whose return to 
parents, themselves without settlement, was authorized on the basis of the 
social desirability of reuniting members of family groups. The fact that there 
were in all 14 such instances where the consideration of the welfare of the 
individual took precedence over a strict interpretation of the law is encouraging. 

Summary. — Of the 239 cases returned to local settlement in this study, 118 
(104 in the first classification and the 14 cases of minors) were returned under 
circumstances that suggest they would be provided for on arrival. The re- 
maining 121 were returned under circumstances w^hich give doubtful promise 
of reasonable provision. 

Transferred to local agencies. — The 18 cases which were accepted for con- 
tinued service by local social agencies, other than one of first application, are 
distributed fairly evenly throughout the various settlement classifications. The 
figures do not rise appreciably as one might hope for the groups whose settle- 
ment is doubtful or denied. Such a rise might suggest the willingness of or ability 
of social agencies to accept responsibility for persons without a settlement claim 
on another community, thereby affording these individuals an opportunity to 
establish roots in the community in which they now are as an alternative to 
further, perhaps planless, migration. 

Various factors may contribute to the reluctance of agencies to accept for 
continued service and adjustment nonresident persons ; prohibitive laws and 
restrictive local policies iu tax-supported agencies may prevent the acceptance 
of cases of this type. Limitation of available relief funds in public and private 
agencies may and often does impose a very practical barrier; primary concern 
for the unmet needs of the local resident person may push to the periphery of 
consciousness the needs of the nonresident who, it may be reasoned (since 
migration for him has ijroved unsuccessful), should not have left home at all. 

Adjusted locally. — Information is incomplete regarding the means of adjust- 
ment for each of the 76 cases reported as adjusted locally. The majority se- 
cured employment in the community, and for a number of others family or 
other relatives in that commimity were willing and able to assume responsibility. 

In this group of 76 cases whose difficulty was adjusted without return, we 
may be touching the margin of the transient and migratory population whose 
movement is attended by a sufficient degree of success that they do not come 
to the attention of a social agency or undergo an inquiry into their settlement 
status. These are the people who are protected by a larger reserve of money, 
who do find employment perhaps seasonal in character, the income from which 
tides them over periods of unemployment and pays their way to the next work 
location; they are the people who by good fortune are not overtaken by illness, 
accident, disappointment, and other unpredictable disaster. A shifting, ill- 
defined line separates the successful migrant from the migrant who seeks help 



924 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



in a strange community and, in so doing, becomes entangled in the complexity 
of the settlement laws. Many of the 76 who succeeded while the settlement 
inquiry was in progress in working out some arrangement which made further 
assistance and, therefore, further inquiry unnecessary may be thought of as 
having temporarily dipped below the line of independent migrancy. If the job 
had been secured a short time earlier, we might never have heard of them at all. 
Lost contact. — In this group of IGO ceases are included those 'wlio separated 
themselves from the care of the agency withoiit a plan, so far as the agency 
knew. They "departed" — they "became impatient at the delay in the reply 
and continued on their way" — or they did not wish to remain to consider a plan 
for their return. In the latter instance, the correspondence frequently bears 
out their statement that there is no opportunity in the home community for 
them and return would be useless. The distribution of these 160 cases in the 
various settlement classifications is of particular interest when the number 
reported for each classification is reduced to a percentage of that classification. 
Table 8 gives the percentages in detail for the material presented in table T 
and, combining the figures and percentages on "lost contact" cases, we have : 



Settlement classification 


Number 
in tbis 
class 


Lost 
contact 


Percent 
of class 


Settlement verified, return authorized, relief a.ssured - 


155 
178 
22 
83 
75 
65 
41 


14 
33 

7 
37 
42 
19 

8 


9.0 




18.5 




32.0 


Settlement not determinable - 


44.5 


Settlement denied . - 


56.0 


Without settlement in any place _ --- 


29.0 


Other --. 


19.5 






Total 


619 


160 


I 25.8 







1 Percent of total. 

These figures show that as the settlement status becomes less satisfactory^ 
the rate at which cases are "lost" increases. Few cases are lost in the first 
class, but in the next classification, the denial of assurance regarding relief 
at home brings a doubling of the rate of withdrawal from the agency's 
attention. The proportions continue to increase rapidly until 56 percent of 
those for whom settlement was denied break their relationship with the 
agency. The rate drops for those "without settlement in any place," but at 
the same time a much larger number of these cases (25 cases, or 38.4 percent) 
are reported as being open and under the care of the reporting agency. Did 
agencies have a greater disposition to continue service for those who had 
entirely lost settlement, and did this afifect the willingness of the clients 
to remain, or would the number of clients still under care have been larger 
in the previous groups if it had been possible to persuade them, to remain? 
In other words, did the client in all cases actually take the initiative for the 
separation from the agency, or was he eucourased to do so when the agency's 
hope of returning him home began to dim? We cannot answer the questions, 
but in these 160 cases may be seen the process by which chronic, perhaps 
purposeless, transiency develops with the possibility of movement becoming 
an end in itself and a fixed life pattern from which it becomes increasingly 
difficult for the person to extricate himself. 



RECOMMENDATIONS 

Consideration of the material in this study supported by conferences with 
administrators of public and private social agencies directly concerned vdth 
the problem, and by observation of conditions in the various sections of the 
country lead to these recommendations: 

(1) That provision for the needs of people should not be dependent upon 
the length of time and the circumstances under which an individual has lived 
in the community in which he applies for assistance, and that, therefore, the 
elimination of settlement legislation as a basis for eligibility for public relief 
is to be desired. 

(2) Uniformity in settlement legislation among the States with the provision 
that a settlement once gained is retained until a new settlement is established 
would remove to a considerable degree the difficulties and privations which 
the present unrelated legislation occasions. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



925 



(3) That, in Aiew of the reality that settlement laws exist and that their 
elimination or uniforu:^it.Y cannot he aecomplifjhed immediately, the Federal 
Government, through the establishment of an additional category to the Social 
Security Act, should make provision for the relief of migrant, transient, and 
unsettled persons. 

Categorical relief and assistance to transients under the Social Security 
Act, administered in similar manner to the present categories, would provide 
assistance for nonresidents in the locality where they applied for help and 
would also provide relief and service facilities, characteristically not now 
available or limited, for discovering the place of settlement and for assisting 
the person to return there if this seemed socially desirable. 

Table 1. — Total cases reported by 15 cities 



City 


Total 


Unat- 
tached 


Family 
groups 


City 


Total 


Unat- 
tached 


Family 
groups 


Total 


755 


403 


352 


Pittsburgh 

Salt Lake City 

San Francisco 

Sioux Citv .._ 


57 
24 
39 
29 

6 
130 
32 

8 


39 
12 
23 
9 
4 
99 
16 
6 


18 




12 


Chicago, 


124 
67 
48 
17 
26 
93 
55 


60 
26 
9 
12 
14 
37 
37 


64 
41 
39 
5 
12 
56 
18 


16 




20 




St. Louis. 

Washington, D. C... 
Westchester County. 
Worcester 


2 




31 


Kansas City 


16 




2 


Philadelphia 











Table 2. — Total number of persons in 755 cases reported by 15 cities 



City 



Total 



Unattached 



Total Male Female 



Family composition— adults 



Total Male Female 



Total 

Chicago 

Cincinnati. -- 

Houston 

Jacksonville 

Kansas City 

Memphis 

Philadelphia 

Pittsburgh 

Salt Lake City 

San Francisco 

Sioux City 

St. Louis 

Washington, D. C. 
Westchester County 
Worcester - 



1,564 



272 



131 



256 



336 



273 

162 

132 

37 

46 

255 

93 

109 

45 

62 

71 

12 

191 

65 

13 



103 

74 



41 
33 
31 
3 ! 

8 i 
48 
10 
14 

8 

12 I 
16 

2 
20 



62 
41 

37 
5 
12 
51 
17 
16 
11 
15 
20 
2 
30 
16 
1 



City 



Family composition— children 



Total 



1 year and 
under 



1 year 

through 

5 



6 years 

through 

15 



16 years 

through 

20 



21 and 
over 



Not 
reported 



Total 

r" 

Chicago 

Cincinnati 

Houston 

Jacksonville 

Kansas City 

Memphis 

Philadelphia 

Pittsburgh 

Salt Lake City 

San Francisco 

Sioux City 

St. Louis 

Washington, D. C. 
Westchester County 
Worcester 



569 



110 
62 
55 
17 
12 

117 
29 
40 
14 
12 
26 
4 
42 
25 
4 



926 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



Table S.— Action taken on 788 non-resident applications by agencies in Jackson^ 
ville, Fla., during February 19^0 



Level of service 



Total 

Adequate 

Help with planning 

Hospitalization 

Out-patient service- 
Emergency 

Meals only.. 

Lodi2;ing only 

Meals and lodging.. 
Emergency grants.. 

Rejected. 



Total 



Types of care 



Case- 
work 
service 
and 
relief 



Medical 
care 



1 17 
17 



593 



463 
90 
32 



32 



None 



1 These 17 cases are reported in this study. 

> Requests for service or relief 36; for medical care 53. 



Table 4. — Ages and sex of unattached persons reported by 15 cities 







Male 


Female 










>o 


lO 












o 


>o 


•o 










"a 




t2 


X 


IN 




CO 




a> 




^ 




Si 




CO 




















txi 










bH 


60 


to 


be 














3 


3 


3 


3 










3 


3 


D 


3 




a. 




■O 


^^ 


o 


O 


o 


a 


o 


■73 


f, 


,.., 


o 


y 




o 




T) 


fi 




5 


o 


CO 


J3 
CD 


?3 


J3 
CO 


CO 




o 


o 


CO 


CO 


IN 




S3 
CO 


si 


o 


Total 


403 


272 


29 


77 


32 


77 


37 


10 


10 


131 


14 


36 


19 


33 


15 


12 


2 


Chicago . . 


60 
26 
9 
12 
14 


42 
11 
5 
9 
9 


11 
2 
2 
2 

?. 


12 
4 
2 
6 
R 


2 

1 




8 
2 

1 



6 






1 
2 





2 
1 



1 


18 
15 
4 
3 
5 


4 


2 



3 

4 

1 
1 


3 

1 

1 

3 


7 
4 
3 


1 


1 
2 






2 








Cincinnati 


1 


Houston 










Kansas City 





Memphis 


37 


?0 


1 


10 


3 


9. 





o 


2 


17 


1 


8 


1 


5 





2 





Philadelphia 


37 


20 





2 


3 


7 


6 


1 


1 


17 





3 


3 


4 


4 


3 





Pittsburgh 


34 


?7 


3 


5 


3 


4 


."i 


1 


1 


1? 


3 


3 


•/. 


1 


2 


1 


(» 


Salt Lake City .. 


1? 


11 


3 


?. 


4 


1 


1 








1 





1 

















San Francisco 


23 


14 


1 


1 


4 


5 


3 








9 


2 


6 








1 








Sioux City 


9 


7 








1 


(t 


?. 


3 


1 


?, 


(I 


(1 


(1 


(1 





1 


1 


St. Louis. 


4 
99 


2 

R1 



2 


2 
23 



9 



36 




n 










2 

18 





1 
5 



3 




5 



1 


1 
2 





Washington . 





Westchester County 


16 


9 





2 


1 


4 


1 





1 


7 








2 


3 


2 








Worcester 


6 


5 








1 


2 


2 








1 














1 













Tabue 5. 


—Children and young persons 


reported by 15 cities 






.\ge groups 


Total 


Unattached 


In 




Male 


Female 


families 


Total - - . - - 


700 


106 


50 


544 










60 
146 
312 
182 




29 

77 




14 
36 


60 


1 through 5 . .. . 


146 


6 through 15 


269 


16 through 20 _ . . 


69 









INTERSTATE MIGRATION 927 

Table 6. — Number of family groups by number of cMldren in families 



City 






Number of families, by size 



Total 

Chicago 

Cincinnati 

Houston 

Jaclcsonville 

Kansas City 

Memphis 

Philadelphia 

Pittsburgh. 

Salt Lake City 

San Francisco.- 

Sioux City 

St. Louis 

Washington, D. C__ 
Westchester County 
Worcester.. _ 



352 



100 



252 



61 



T.^BLE 7. — Outcome of cases in relation to settlement status 





Still open 




a 


T3 














!- 


CI 






5§ 








a 






o 






Sd 


^<u 






— bj; 


a 








m" 






a g 


a 








> 






















^ 




o 


o 






H 


< 


« 


619 


113 


34 


79 


155 


15 


3 


12 


178 


18 


1 


17 


22 


6 


4 


2 


83 


22 


8 


14 


75 


19 


16 


3 


65 


25 




25 


41 


8 


2 


6 



Basis for closing 







_ 






Returned 








to legal 








settlement 










o 


>. 






■^ >, 










"3 




3 C 


3a 


^3 


O 


o 


c* ° 


=3 o 












!-« 


-3 






3 ca 






o 
















a 


2 


^3 












-..■^ 


IT" •^ 


2 


•c 




^^ 


f* ■^ 


H 


<1 


iJ 


222 


17 


18 


76 


160 


104 




3 


16 


14 


104 




2 


17 


33 




4 


2 


3 


7 


M 


4 


5 


12 


37 




2 


1 


10 


42 




4 


2 


13 


19 


«13 


3 


3 


5 


8 



Total 

Settlement verified — return authorized— re- 
lief assured 

Settlement verified — return authorized— re- 
lief not assured 

Settlement verified — return not authorized.. 

Settlement not determinable 

Settlement denied 

Without settlement in any place 

Other 



506 



140 

160 
16 
61 
56 
40 
33 



13 



' Minors whose return to nonresident parents was approved. 



928 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Table 8. — Outcome of cases in relation to settlement status in percentage 







still open 




Basis for closing 






•S 


£ 


Returned 
















? 


S 




to les;al 


<o 














a 






settlement 


03 














So 


C3 






s 

o 


t>. 








ca 


Im 










ii'-S 


C 


_ 


.2 


x: 


o 














































3 




o 


o 
































"S 


a 


> 

'3 


4 


a o 


3 g 




3 


a 
8 


^ 




o 


o 


^ 


» 


o 


% 


% 


03 


T3 


S 


t! 




ir^ 


H 


< 


« 


O 


&^ 


< 


f:) 


o 


Total-. 


100.0 


18.2 


5.5 


12.7 


81.8 


35.9 


2.8 


2.9 


12.3 


25.9 


2.1 


Settlement verified— return 
























authorized — relief assured 


100.0 


9.7 


1.9 


7.7 


90.3 


67.0 




i.y 


10.3 


9.0 


1.9 


Settlement verified— return 
























authorized — relief not as- 


























100.0 


10.1 


.6 


9.6 


89.9 


58.4 




1.1 


9.6 


18.0 


2.2 


Settlement verified— return 




not authorized . _ 


1 100. 






















Settlement not determinable... 


100.0 


26.5 


9.6 


16.9 


73.5 


1.2 


4.8 


6.0 


14.5 


44.5 


2.4 


Settlement denied 


100.0 


25.3 


21.3 


4.0 


74.7 




2.7 


1.3 


13.3 


56.0 


1.3 


Without settlement in any 
























place . 


100.0 
' 100. 


38.4 





38.4 


61.6 




6.2 


3.1 


20.0 


29.2 


3.1 


Other 



























' Percentage not computed on base less than 50. 

Table 9. — Number of cases by supposed state of settlement 





Number of cases 


State 


Number of cases 


State 


Total 


Inter- 
State 


Intra- 
state 


Total 


Inter- 
state 


Intra- 
state 




18 

5 

22 

24 

3 

7 

2 

8 

13 

27 

6 

40 

15 

15 

6 

22 

10 

2 

13 

21 

21 

11 

12 

36 

4 

6 

1 


18 

5 

22 

22 

3 

7 

2 

8 

13 

27 

6 

27 

15 

4 

6 

22 

10 

2 

13 

14 

21 

11 

12 

36 

4 

6 

1 


2 

-- 
.. 

7 


New Hampshire 


3 

21 

1 

48 

18 

1 

48 

15 

5 

41 

2 

25 

2 

39 

38 

3 

2 

26 

11 

13 

14 

1 

1 

6 

1 


3 
21 

1 
45 
18 

1 
36 
15 

5 
40 

2 
25 

2 
25 
17 

2 

2 
26 
11 
13 
14 

1 

1 






New Jersey . 






New Mexico 






New York. ... _ 


3 




North Carolina. 






North Dakota 






Ohio 


12 








Florida 


Oregon 

Pennsvlvania.. 






1 




Rhode Island . . . 






South Carolina ... 






South Dakota.. 






Tennessee 


14 




Texas 


21 




Utah 


1 




Vermont 






Virginia. 






Washington. 






West Virginia 






Wisconsin 




Minnesota 


Wyoming... 






Puerto Rico 












Mexico - - . 








Total 








755 


663 


85 









INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



929 




qj^r 



o 2 



ri S ^ a: 

— tc te ^ O g 



03 S 



r^- 






•si 



^O 






^, QJ 3 *- ~o •« '^ 



1^ 



o 
O 

o 
It 

Tj3-t-5 
«.2 



CPQ 



C3 O i 



1g|.^ ^^^ 



I-cS^ 






53 J2 

•^ O 



° '5) c bc e 



il|l|iil'^iicii-ff|i||iii 



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INTERSTATE MIGRATION 931 

INCREASING RESTRICTIONS OF SETTLEMENT LAWS 

Mr. Parsons. Will you explain to the committee the mamier in 
whicli this material was obtained, with respect to the settlement laws, 
especially? 

Miss DE LA Pole. I will be glad to. I would like to start with 
just a word as to why the study was made at all, because that is, I 
ithink, of interest. 

Mr. Parsons. Very well. 

Miss DE la Pole. 'The Travelers Aid Association is very much 
concerned ami troubled by the variation in settlement laws and the 
difficidties experienced in "working within the structure of the settle- 
ment laws. Late last year in checkino; recent changes in legisla- 
tion among States, we found that in spite of the fact social workers 
had been hoping settlement laws would get better and less restrictive 
and more reasonable, settlement laws in most States are becoming 
much worse. 

I think you will be interested in referring to the chart which 
accompanies the statement which we have presented which shows 
the changes in settlement laws during the 22-month period up to 
October of last year.^ It shows that 14 States in 22 months changed 
their settlement" laws, some of them both making the time required 
to gain settlement more restrictive and the time required in which 
settlement could be lost, somewhat easier, or vaguer, which in itself 
is a disadvantage to a person. 

Mr. Parsons. No State reduced its time limitation; all went up 
instead of down? 

Miss DE LA Pole. That was the trend; yes. It is awfully hard 
in balancing the two pieces of legislation to get a net balance for 
each State, but the trend was definitely, very definitely, up. 

Mr. Parsons. Yes. 

Miss DE LA Pole. For instance, three new States went into the 
3-year group. One dropped out of the 6-inonth group and three 
dropped out of the 1-year requirement group. As I said, three went 
into the 3-year requirement group. If you analyze the chart, you 
will see it moves to the right. It moves to make settlement more 
difficult. 

We felt in the national association that if we could get a group 
of current cases of people caught in the settlement situation that 
would show in what instances settlement laws were working rea- 
sonably Avell and were protecting peo])le and making it possible to 
do something for them, and in what instances and under what cir- 
cumstances settlement laws did not work well, that that might be 
of interest to various groups of people — we did not Ivnow that this 
committee would be interested in it at that time — ^but, groups of 
this kind, and this was one of the groups we had in mind. We 
could not make an extensive study. We could not try to find out 
how many people there were in the whole country at any given 
time. 



1 See chart, pp. 929 and 930. 



932 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

However, we thought we could get a group of cases wliich would 
show a general picture of the situation, and would give some indi- 
cation of how widespread the problem is. 

Mr, Parsons. We think there are upwards of 4,000,000 people 
who are more or less on the road. 

Miss DE LA Pole. You realize, a private agency could not under- 
take a study involving a total of 4,000,000 people. 

Mr. Parsons. Certainly not, but by a group study you could get a 
cross section which would do very well for illustrative purposes. 

Miss DE la Pole. I think that is what we tried to do, jGongressman. 
We selected, or tried to select, 15 cities in different areas of the country 
which would be apt to give us cases in which the laws of the different 
sections that were giving trouble would be represented. You may be 
interested in the names of the cities, although they are in the statement. 
We selected Chicago, Cincinnati, Houston, Jacksonville, Kansas City, 
Mo. ; Memphis, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Salt Lake City, San Fran- 
cisco, Sioux City, Iowa; St. Louis, Washington, D. C; Westchester 
County, N. Y. ; and Worcester, Mass. We had a special reason for 
putting each of those cities in. 

AVhile we do not expect that the sampling we have made will bear 
any relation to the total problem in any special region, it is interesting 
to note that in the 755 cases reported in this statement by these 15 cities, 
every State in the Union was represented. That is, one or more cases 
came from every State in the Union. In addition, we had one from 
Puerto Rico, and one case from Mexico. 

With respect to the question raised earlier, in the morning session, 
as to the places from which people are coming to Chicago, whether they 
are coming from rural or from urban areas, and from what States 
they are coming, we do have available if it would be of interest, I have 
not tabulated it. If you would like to have it, I will be very glad to 
furnish it. 

Mr. Parsons. I would be vei^y glad to have it for the record. You 
may send it to the committee at Washington, and it will be made part 
of the formal record. 

Miss DE LA Pole. I believe they contain some interesting information. 
Now, in these 15 cities we asked various social agencies interested in 
this problem to cooperate with us in reporting for a 1-month period, 
the month of February, each new nonresident — let me restate that: 
Each new nonresident case which applied in February, in which the 
case work service involved an inquiry into settlement. It is not a study 
of all transients. It is not even a study of all transients that were 
accepted. It is a study of the transients who were accepted, and with 
respect to whom an inquiry into settlement was made. I want you to 
know that, because your 4,000,000 people are back of this. 

There were 57,000 in the 15 cities that cooperated in this study. Al- 
most half of those are agencies supported by public funds, and the 
others a variety of agencies under private auspices. 

SETTLEMENT LAWS ADVANTAGE TO PERMANENT RESIDENT 

Mr. Parsons. You will furnish the complete study when it is fin- 
ished ? 

Miss DE LA Pole. Yes. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 933 

Mr, Parsons. For the benefit of the committee? 

Miss DE LA Pole. Yes. 

Mr. Paksons. Are the settlement laws an advantage and protection 
to those persons in the State who have settlement, if they have to bear, 
at least in more recent years, the burden of taxation for this public 
relief that is given in order to take care of those who are traveling? 

Miss DE LA Pole. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. Do you not think the settlement laws are an advan- 
tage in one respect? 

Miss DE LA Pole. They are an advantage to the person who has 
settlement and who stays at home, provided there is a public-relief 
program of reasonable adequacy in that community in which he has 
settlement. The person who leaves home for some of the reasons we 
have alreadj^ been considering then is influenced by two settlement 
laws. He is influenced by the settlement law of his own State, the 
State from which he is going, and he is also influenced by the settle- 
ment law of the community in which he finds himself in need, but 
without settlement. 

Most of those laws make nonresident persons ineligible for relief, 
and this in most comnumities means ineligible for even temporary 
relief, which would give time for an inquiry which would discover 
that person's place of settlement, and get him back to it. Therefore, 
the lack of relief for nonresidents has a very great force in getting 
people who have settlement attention from the State of their own 
settlement. I think that is an important point, I want to be sure 
I am making it clear. 

Mr. Parsons. You stated in your article here that the settlement 
law served to increase the number of nonsettled persons. 

Miss DE la Pole. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons, Will you explain from your studies how you think 
that has happened ? 

Miss DE LA Pole. Of course, your settlement law is not the only thing 
that creates nonsettled persons. It creates the category of nonsettled 
persons. 

Mr, Parsons. We might apply the terms "settled" and "nonsettled" 
on tlie basis of the settlement law itself, but the generally accepted 
term of "nonsettled" so far as the individual is concerned, denotes 
those people who are migrating from place to place in the hope of 
finding work, or the self-supporting migrant who travels to different 
agricultural regions such as the South and East, 

We found a very large number of people who started out in the 
winter working in Floi'ida, and as the season came North, they came 
North with it, and finally wound up in the middle of the summer or 
early fall up in the nortliern part of the country. They are more or 
less self-supporting migrants. It is that type of migrant we do not 
want to abolish completely. They are needed. The people need 
them to come in and perform this work. By the generally accepted 
term "nonsettled." we mean that type, those who are on the road. 
Now, you say settlement laws tend to increase the number of non- 
settled persons. 



934 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

MIGRATION INCREASED BY PRESENT SETTLEMENT LAWS 

Miss DE LA Pole. I tliink one very good example of that is in a 
group of cases that were reported in this study, but which we did not 
inchide in the 755 cases in the original study, because it was additional 
material that one of the agencies in the city of Chicago sent in to 
illustrate a particular angle of the law. There were about 300 in this 
particular group of case.-: in which people had lost settlement because 
of the law, not because of anything particularly that the person did. 

There was one group, for example, of 61 submitted by the Chicago 
Relief Administration Transportation Service — this is on page 20 
of the statement — 61 cases submitted by the Chicago Relief Adminis- 
tration Transportation Service, for example, have been analyzed and 
show the influence which the present Illinois settlement law has upon 
increasing the number of persons who are without settlement in any 
place. Of these 61 cases, 36 would clearly have had settlement in Chi- 
cago prior to July 1, 1939. At least 15 more would probably have 
been considered settled in Chicago because of long perio3^s of previous 
residence broken only by brief periods of absence from the township. 
Therefore, it is fair to say that 51 out of 61, or five-sixths of this 
group of cases were made nonsettled by the enactment of the new 
Illinois law. 

That does not represent the total picture. That is just a block 
of cases sent in by one agency. I think perhaps an example will 
illustrate to you the way the settlement laws can pull people's roots 
up for them. For example, a woman who had lived all of her life 
in Chicago, who was 72 years old, went to Cicero, which is also in 
Cook County, to make her home with her son. She intended to live 
permanently with her son. That is, she intended to make her home 
there permanently, as far as she knew. After 1 month her son died, 
and she came back to Chicago. She had been out of the township 
and had lost her settlement in Chicago. She had no claim on the 
township of Cicero. 

She is 72, and has lived all of her life here. Probably a woman 72 
will not take to the road, although we have in our studies an un- 
attached woman of 84 and some past 70 who are on the highways 
alone, and are without settlement. A younger, more vigorous per- 
son — that might be the one thing that might make them a very likely 
recruit for this migrant group. 

Another woman had lived in Chicago 17 years. She accepted a 
domestic position in Maywood, 111., which is also in Cook County, 
and which only requires a 10-cent elevated fare to travel to from 
Chicago. She worked there from March to December 1939. She re- 
turned to Chicago when the work ended. In February 1940 she ap- 
plied for public relief, and since she could not prove her claim that 
she had retained her room in Chicago during the period of her ab- 
sence, she was found without settlement and ineligible for public 
relief until December 1942. 

That is operating to make people without settlement, not because 
of anything they have done or anything they could have foreseen. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 935 

They would have to be much more sophisticated than they are to pro- 
tect themselves aoainst this sort of thing. 

Mr. Parsons. I think we will all ajjree that something should be 
done at least to equalize the period or to make the States conform 
to one particular period, if it is possible to do it. We would like to 
see uniformity. At least, that would be a step in the right direction. 
The committee feels that most of the witnesses who have appeared 
before the connnittee in the other two hearings, as well as here, agree 
with that. The question is. How are we going to do it ^ Do you 
have an}' suggestions to make? 

UNIFORM SETTLEMENT LAWS 

^Miss DE LA Pole. Theoretically, I am one of the people who believe 
in no settlement law. Practically, I think that may be idealistic, and 
that uniform settlement laws may be the thing for us to hope for. It 
may be more practical. 

On the other hand, I have looked at these reports coming in on 
these cases, and I realize that we are so far from uniformity now 
that it seems it would be a tremendous task to achieve or accomplish 
imiformity. There are 11 States which require 1 year to gain settle- 
ment and 1 year to lose settlement, so at least 11 States have uniform 
settlement laws in that group. Still, the infinite variety in interpre- 
tation of special requirements in the settlement laws, and special pro- 
vision, brings us to the point where probably no 2 States, regardless 
of what length of time to gain a new settlement is specified — probably 
no 2 States have anything that approaches a uniform settlement 
law. 

I am wondering, actually, whether there is a reasonable possibility 
of getting uniformity of legislation. I do think that the recommen- 
dation which was made this morning, with which we also would be 
in sympathy, of a jjrogram which would ]3rovide grants to the States 
similar to the social-security program, with certain standards fixed by 
the Federal Government, or by the Social Security Board, might 
give us in effect a uniform settlement law, as it has in some of the 
other social-security categories. 

AVlien you look, as you are looking, at the statement later, you 
will see we have one section showing the complexities met in dealing 
Avith settlement laws. You see all of the varieties of things that can 
happen. For instance, with respect to a minor's settlement, the law 
says that a minor takes the settlement of his father, but if the minor 
has been emancipated, he does not. If his father's settlement is in 
doubt, he does not. If he was born illegitimate, he would take the 
settlement of his mother. In some States if a child is born illegitimate, 
the subsequent marriage of the parents makes the child legitimate, 
and the child's settlement would be that of his father. However, in 
some States, the mere marriage of the parents of an illegitimate child 
does not legitimize the child, and in cases where no settlement can 
be derived from the father, the child takes settlement from the mother. 
Those are the things you try to discover as you try to administer 
settlement laws, which make it very difficult. 



260370 — 40 — pt. 3- 



93(3 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

WORK OF NATIONAL TRA\^ELERS AID ASSOCIATION 

Mr. Parsons. What is the purpose of your associatiou? You do 
j'ot disburse funds yourself, but you are a national association that 
is in contact with the local units of Travelers Aid? 

Miss DE LA Pole. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. Will you explain for the benefit of the committee 
]ust what the purpose of your association is, and how it functions? 

Miss DE LA Pole. Well, the National Travelers Aid Association, 
with which I am connected, is the central association, or central clear- 
ing house, for local Travelers Aid Societies in the various communi- 
ties. The local Travelers Aid Society carries membership in our 
association and the membership is based upon their meeting certain 
minimum standards. . The local Travelers Aid Society is locally 
supported and draws most of its support through the community 
chest in the community. Are you interested in my saying something 
further about our functions ? 

Mr. Parsons. Yes. 

Miss DE LA Pole. Our association acts as a central clearing house 
and information exchange among the Travelers Aid Societies. There 
is a definite responsibility placed on us by the field for developing 
and improving standards of service throughout the field and for de- 
veloping and disseminating information. 

As we woik with people who pass from one city to another, our 
agencies have to be closely geared between cities. The effectiveness 
of the operation of Travelers Aid Societies depends a great deal upon 
this gearing together of cities, because they are dealing with people 
who move about and they cannot follow thein through themselves. 

We also have a responsibility for keeping in touch with trends in 
this whole field of moving people, both those that Travelers Aid is 
able to serve, and the general group of moving people which forms 
the background for the service our societies are able to provide. 

For example, a study of settlement laws and trends, we feel is 
quite a definite part of this more general problem, and we feel it 
is a responsibility of ours to study causes of migration and try 
to give what leadership we can in developing satisfactory programs 
and plans. 

Mr. Parsons. Do your local Travelers Aid Societies keep up with 
the people that are traveling across country from one State to an- 
other State, and submit records upon people who are stopping at 
the different places as they go through? 

Miss DE la Pole. We are what we call a social case-working agency 
and keep the usual records, the standard case records that are kept, 
that is, individual records on cases assisted. Those are confidential 
records, of course. You know the nature of them. We do not have 
an information exchange regarding moving people that goes between 
our societies. Is that what you had in mind? 

Mr. Parsons. Yes. 

Miss DE LA Pole. We do not have reports on all individual cases, 
but when one society has an individual as shown in this report, who 
belongs in another city, or whose roots, interests, and resources lie 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 937 

ill another city the two TraA'elers Aid Societies gear themselves into 
\\orking relationship in, order to decide which city offers the best 
opportunity for that particular person, where the resources are that 
can be tapped for him, and what is going to be the most reasonabla 
and helpful outcome. We do not have listings that we send from 
city to city. 

Mr. Parsons. How long have you been connected with this work^ 

Miss DE LA Pole. Well, more or less continuously for about 18 years. 

Mr. Parsons. It must be very interesting work. 

Miss DE la Pole. It is interesting, but very distressing sometimes 
Avhen we feel there are many people that need a great many things 
done for them, but we are handicapped in not being able to do it. 

Mr. Parsons. Yes. 

Miss DE LA Pole. We are looking with great hope toward the report 
your committee is going to release. 

FEDERAL TRANSIENT PROGRAM 

Mr. Parsons. What do you suppose would have happened if the 
Federal Government had not come to the relief of the transients in 
1933? 

Miss DE LA Pole. Of course, we know what was happening at the 
time they did come to the relief of the group w-e are discussing. Per- 
sonally, I spent time almost continuously in the field during the 
somewhat over 2 years that the Federal transient program was in 
operation. While we had no official connection, there again, because 
of our general interest in the field, we gave a good deal of informal 
consultation, encouragement, and information service. I visited 
most of the transient camps in a number of States I traveled in. 

Some of us felt that the Federal transient program had a very 
advanced social conception of what a social work program should 
be. I think, personally, it was a young program. Nothing as lar<»-e 
as that in 2 years could expect not to have made some mistakes, or to 
be open to some criticism. I think it was too bad that after 2 years 
the experience, which was considerable, w^as lost because if we had 
had that program modified and developed as it should be, wath some 
changes in the administrative plan for it, w^e would have something 
that would mean a great deal to the wdiole country. 

Mr. Parsons. Out in the rural sections — what I am going to say 
is not true in the cities, because there is no soil in the cities to go 
to— during that 2- or 3-year period from April 1933 to Julv 1. 1936, 
when the Federal Government withdrew from giving aid to the- 
States, there was a lot of encouragement lent to people to accept 
relief, and thereby avoid responsibility for providing for themselves 
even though they had acres of land upon which to^ do so. In that 
respect it invited a lot of people to come to relief who never should 
have received, perhaps, direct relief. They should have had farm 
security loans. Or, after Ave started the W. P. A. Avork, after the 
months in the Avinter, they could have gotten along themselves. 

HoAveyer. Avhen they Avere invited to come into the relief picture,, 
they quit growing gardens, because relief told them that if they 



938 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

had a cow, chickens, and a team, it made no difference then how 
mnch hind they owned, and if they had those thinos they could not 
obtain any relief aid, so as a consequence, they sold the team, the 
chickens, and the cow, in order to ^o on relief. Many instances of 
that occurred ri^ht in southern Illinois. We know it happened in 
other places. They were out in the wide open spaces, and if they 
had been helped with a small loan or enconra<>;ed to o;row gardens, 
raise more chickens, raise more pigs, and so forth, they would then 
have been self-reliant, so it was not altogether the fault of the indi- 
vidual. Part of it was the fault of the relief worker, or social-service 
M'orker in not explaining to the individual how he could help himself, 
and then enconrage him to do so. 

I tremble to think what might have happened if the Federal 
Government had not come to the aid of the States in 1933. Do 
you think there would have been riots and bloodshed right here 
in the city of Chicago? 

Miss DE LA Pole. I doubt if there would have been. I think people 
are surprisingly patient. I Avas in the public-relief program in 
Chicago at that time, and sometimes some of lis wondered why 
they did not riot, but they did not, and that is greatly to their 
credit. 

Mr. Parsons. Certainly; it is to their everlasting credit, but people 
will not sit down and starve to death. 

Miss DE LA Pole. People should not. 

Mr. Parsons. Mothers and fathers will not sit down and let their 
children starve either. They might starve themselves, but they are 
not going to let their children starve. 

Miss DE LA Pole. No. 

Mr. Parsons. I think it was ]Mr. Willard. president of the Balti- 
more & Ohio Railroad, who came to AVashington in 1932 or 1933. 
I know his statement was hailed very widely because he was the 
first big-business man to say it. His statement was that he himself 
would steal before he would permit his wife and his children to starve. 
Of course, we were upon the brink of breeding a very large crime 
wave at that time. 

Miss DE la Pole. They get hurt when they steal. It is too bad if 
they are put in a position where they have to do something else. 

Mr. Curtis. May I ask a question ? 

Mr. Parsons. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Were you through? 

Mr. Parsons. Yes; I am through. I wish to say that this is a very 
fine statement you have submitted, Miss de la Pole, and we appre- 
ciate it. 

Mr. Curtis. It is true that most people prefer to have a home and 
stay there? 

Miss DE LA Pole. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. It is usually crying necessity that forces them to leave 
it? 

Miss DE LA Pole. I think that is correct ; yes. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 939 

Mr. Curtis. It seems to me there are two phases of this problem: 
One is the care of the victim and how that shoukl be divided between 
the local, State, and National responsibility; and the other one is 
some attention to the problem and condition that forces people to 
leave their home. 

As a representative of the social-worker group who are doing a fine 
work in administering care to the victim, do 3^ou have any sugges- 
tions in regard to the other angle of the problem dealing with those 
basic economic ({uestions, and so forth, that have made it difficult for 
people to stay on the land, or who lose their jobs, or the like? 

CAUSES or MIGRATION 

Miss DE LA Pole. I am very glad to be given an opportunity to correct 
what may have been a false impression I may have given in my state- 
ment. I would not want it to appear that I would speak only for 
Federal relief for nonresident persons. We seem to overlook the fact 
that many persons are nonresidents and in need of that relief because 
of needs that they had in their own communities which resulted in their 
leaving their own connnnnities. Therefore, anything I would suggest 
in regard to a Federal program for nonresidents would certainly, I 
hope, be part of a general provision for people who are in need, regard- 
less of whether they are residents or nonresidents. 

We know that people move because they are pushed or pulled or both. 
Certainly as we travel about the country, we see what is happening ; we 
see many forces that are pushing people quite logically out of the place 
where they ordinarily would consider to be their homes. I know there 
are some sections in this country where that has occurred. I know that 
in the Dust Bowl section that is true, and there are many other sections 
of tlie country v.liere that is true. I think one section perhaps is pub- 
licized more than another. There are many sections in the country in 
which it makes very good sense for people to move from that section to 
another section. 

If you do not mind, I would like to. at this time, introduce another 
idea in relation to some of the discussion which occurred this morning, 
where the question was asked a number of times as to whether in the 
opinion or observation or experience of the people who were appearing 
as witnesses, relief seemed to be a factor which was making for move- 
ment; that is, whether people were moving in order to get better 
relief, and whether they were moving to areas on a higher relief 
standard. I wonder if it w^ould not be quite reasonable to suggest 
that the particular sections of the country that have higher relief 
standards are also sections of the country that have greater economic 
opportunities, and that the person may be moving not because of 
higher relief standards, but because that is a section of the country 
which is able to have higher relief standards, because of some other 
things it happens to have. 

It seems to me that that would relate somewhat to the question you 
have asked. 



940 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mv. Curtis. With respect to tlie peo])le you have come in contact 
with, these families and these individuals who are homeless and job- 
less, has it been your observation that they are part of a mass exodus, 
or are they individual cases of hardshi]) that have befallen that par- 
ticular individual or family? 

Miss DE LA Pole. Speaking from my own observation, which may 
be somewhat limited because our agency works more on individual 
cases, or at least from the standpoint of the person who is moving — 
his case as an individual — he does not usually see his own situation 
in relation to general economic conditions clearly enough to be suffi- 
ciently wise to protect himself. The person, each individual person, 
seems to think that he can get a job even if the papers say that he 
-cannot. 

Mr. Sparkmax, His problem is that of an individual ? 

Miss DE LA Pole. That is true. I think we credit these people with 
much more sophistication and much more wile than we are justified 
in doing. If people leave home to get relief, they are very unwise, 
because when you leave home, you do not get relief. 

Mr. Sparkman. I have no other questions. 

The Chairman. From your experience, are you not of the opinion 
3'ou never can stop migration in the United States? 

Miss DE LA Pole. Oh, I am; definitely. 

The Chairman. Whether one has any money, or does not have any 
money ? 

Miss DE LA Pole. That is absolutely correct. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much. Are there any other 
questions ? 

Mr. Curtis. I have one more question, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. Congressman Curtis. 

Mr. Curtis. Have you been here today while the other witnesses 
have testified? 

Miss DE la Pole. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. There have been a number of witnesses who have told 
of their experience, as well as some administrative witnesses who 
have told of the difficulties within Illinois, and even within Cook 
County as to the matter of residence. 

]Miss DE LA Pole, Yes. 

^fr. Curtis. It is true, is it not, that the ansAver to those legal dif- 
ficulties can be reached within the State of Illinois? Is it not true 
that your legislature can solve the major problem before you with 
respect to that? 

Miss DE LA Pole. I am not an Illinois person, but I would think 
they could solve some of the problems. 

Mr. Curtis. I thought you were from Chicago, Miss de la Pole. 

Miss DE LA Pole. I have worked here. However, each State can 
•only make a law, obviously, for itself that will apply within its own 
boundaries. 

Mr. Curtis. That is true. 

Miss DE LA Pole. So no matter how good a law one State makes, 
it is at the mercy of the legislation of all the other States. 

Mr. Curtis. That is true. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 941 

]\Iiss DE LA Pole. Your ability to move across State lines is the 
real crnx of the difficulty, is it not ? 

Mr. Curtis. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. Have you visited any of these mig-rant camps which 
you visited back in the relief days, since the Farm Security Ad- 
ministration has taken over the providing of these camps? 

]Miss DE LA Pole. I visited almost all of the transient camps in 
the country, I think, during the transient program. I do not believe 
there Avere any I missed. I have not visited any of the Farm Se- 
curity Administration camps in California, although I have been 
very much interested in them, and have had very long first-hand 
reports. Nor have I visited camps in Texas, although people who 
have seen them are very enthusiastic about what they have been 
doing to facilitate the movement of people to jobs. 

Mr. Parsons. Of course, that is not going to cure the migrant 
problem. 

Miss DE LA Pole. No. 

Mr. Parsons. As some have stated, we do not want to carry it 
entirely, but it is doing a great deal to the sanitary conditions and 
for the comfort of the people, in providing those things. If more of 
that ty])e of work assistance had been granted earlier, we might have 
saved a lot of those who have gone on the road, and kept them in 
their former abode. That is all. 

The Chair^nean. The real problem is simply this, the problem with 
which the committee is concerned : How far can the State of Illinois 
go financially in taking care of the destitute nonresident citizens? 
There comes a time when they cannot take care of their own, is that 
not true '. 

Miss DE i.A Pole. That is true. 

Tlie Chairman. In other words, no one can tell. You may have 
100,000 come in here in the next year. 

Miss DE la Pole. Yes. 

The Chairman. That is the great problem. That is why your paper 
which has been submitted here is very useful to us. We thank you very 
much for it, Miss de la Pole. 

(Whereupon Miss de la Pole was excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF JOEL D. HUNTER, GENERAL SUPERINTENDENT, 
UNITED CHARITIES OF CHICAGO 

The Chairman. The next witness will be Mr. Joel D. Hunter, gen- 
eral superintendent, United Charities of Chicago, Congressman Cur- 
tis will interrogate you, Mr. Hunter. 

Mr. Curtis. Will you state your full name and your occupation for 
the benefit of the record, Mr. Hunter? 

Mr. Hunter. Joel D. Hunter, general superintendent. United Chari- 
ties of Chicago. 

Mr. Curtis. You have submitted a written statement which will be 
made ]jart of our record. 

Mr. Hunter. Yes. 

(The statement referred to is as follows :) 



g42 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Statement by Joel D. Hunter, General Superintendent, United Chabities 

OF Chicago 

THE effect of THE AMENDMENTS TO THE ILLINOIS PAUPER LAW ON THE ADMINISTR.VTION 

OF RELIEF .TO MIGRANTS 

I have always thought of migratory workers as falling into two large groups. 
First, tlie people who go from place to place following employment, such as the 
individuals who go from one harvest field to another. 

The second group is made up of the individuals and families who wish to make 
a permanent change in their residence hecause of changes in the economic condi- 
tions of the community in which they have lived. These people come from the 
dust howls, drought areas, villages near a mine which has heen closed, or from 
communities in which there is a long history of unemployment and no prospect of 
improvement. 

The Family Service Bureau of the United Charities has had nothing to do with 
the first group of the migratory workers. We have always had contact with 
some families who belong to the second group. This was never a large number 
of families until November 1, 1939, when the amendments to the pauper law relating 
to residence went into effect. Up to that time, the policy of the Family Service 
Bureau was always to handle each case on an individual basis. 

We did three different things : First, if the family had legal residence in some 
other State or community and agreed to return to that conmmnity and it seemed 
best because of greater opportunities for employment and otiier facts to arrange 
for such return, we sent such families to their place of previous residence. In the 
second place, when there seemed to be a much better opportunity in Chicago 
than in the place of previous residence, we did everything possible in relief and 
service to help the family to become adjusted and self-supporting in this community. 
In the third place, there were occasional families in our judgment, who should 
return to their place of previous residence but did not agree to this return without 
any valid reason. To these few, we did refuse material relief. 

Since November 1, 1939. the situation has been nuich different. On that date 
amendments to sections 16 and 17 of tlie Illinois pauper law went into effect. The 
following is a copy of these amendments : 

[House Itill No. 272, 61st general assembly, 1939] 

An Act to amend sections 16 and 17 of an Act to revise the law in i-elation to 
paupers, approved March 2.3, 1874, as amended, and to add section 16a thereto. 

Be it enacted lnj the people of the State of Illinois, represented in the general 
asseinhlii: 

Section 1. Sections 16 and 17 of an act to revise tlie law in relation to paupers 
approved March 23, 1874, as amended, are amended, and section 16a is added 
thereto, the amended and added sections to read as follows : 

Sec. 16. No city, villas e, incorporated town, county, or township required by 
this Act to provide relief and support to residents therein sliall furnish such relief 
or support to any person who did not reside therein for a pei'iod of tliree years 
immediately preceding his application for relief and support. If. however, any 
person did, for said three-year period, reside in some other city, village, or incor- 
porated town in this State charged with the relief and support of poor and indi- 
gent persons or some other county or town in this State, it shall be the duty of the 
overseer of the poor of the numicipality, county, or town, as the case may be, to 
send written notice, by mail or otherwise, to the overseer of the poor of such other 
city, village, or incorporated town in wliich .such pauper so resided, or, in counties 
not under township organization, to the county clerk of the county in which the 
pauper so resided, or if he then resided in a town supporting its own poor, to the 
overseer of the poor of such town, requesting the proper authorities of such city, 
village, or incorporated town, county, or town, as the case may be, to remove said 
pauper forthwith, and to pay the expenses accrued or to accrue in taking care of 
the .same; and such city, village, or incorporated town, county, or town, as the 
case may be, where sucli pauper resided, shall pay to the city, village, incorporated 
town, county, or town, in the event it takes care of such pauper, all reasonable 



INTERSTATE MIGKATION 943 

charges fur the same, and such amount may be recovered by such city, viUage, or 
incorporated town, county, or town, as the case may be, in any court of competent 
jurisdiction. . , . ■ . 

.Sec. 16a. Any city, village, incorporated town, county, or township which is 
charged with the duty of relieving and supporting all poor and indi.-ent persons 
lawfully resident therein may, in lieu thereof, use funds available for such relief 
and .^upijort to pay the expense of transporting any such i)erson to any other 
State in which he last resided prior to his entering the State of Illinois. 

Sec. 17. The term "residence," for the purpose of this Act, shall be taken and 
considered to mean the city, village, incorporated town, county, or town charged 
with the duty of furnishing pauper relief, in which a person has made his perma- 
nent home f()r a continuous period of three years, preceding his becoming charge- 
able as a pauper. 

Hugh W. Cross, 
8pealei\ House of Representatives. 
John Stelle, 
Presidoit of the Senate. . 

This bill having been presented to the Governor on July 13, 1939, after the ad- 
journment of the General Assembly and he having failed to file it in my office, 
with his objections, within 10 days (Sundays excepted) after such date, it has 
thereby become a law. 

Witness my hand this 26th day of July A. D. 1939. 

EDWAiiD J. Hughes, Sceretanj of State. 

When this law went into effect it made a good many people ineligible for public 
relief. It was our opinion that the amendments were unreasonable and discrim- 
inatory. We set about to do three things : First, to grant what aid and assistance 
we could to the families who were suffering because of the above unreasonable 
and discriminatory le islation. The attached table shows the number of people 
who applied to the 11 dilferent district offices of the Family Service Bureau in 
the months from November 1939 to June 1940, inclusive. It also shows various 
facts related to this group. You will note that in June 1940, li.j.4 percent of the 
relief cases were made up of this nonresident group. 

As stated in the earlier part of this memorandum we usually deal with a very 
small number of such cases — probably less than 1 percent. When such things 
as the sufferings caused by the enforcement of the unjust residence requirements 
of the recent amendments to the pauper law happen in the community, the United 
Charities considers the situation and does one of two things : In the first place, 
if the situation involves so many people and such a large expenditure of money 
that it is absolutely beyond the reach of private philanthropy, we do not attempt 
to give aid or service to any of the people involved. It would seem in such cases 
like trying to put out a forest fire with a squirt gun. In the second place, if the 
number of people involved and the amount of money necessary is smaller, and 
it seems possible to change the situation in a reasonable amount of time, we give 
what aid and service we can to the families who are suffering the most. This 
is like helping a group of people across a river. We do not do it unless we feel 
our boat is big enough to take care of a reasonable number of the people involved 
and we can see the other side of the river. We followed this second policy in 
regard to the nonresident families in economic distress because of the unreason- 
ableness of the amendments to the Illinois Pauper Act. In the second place, we 
set out to attempt to have the Illinois General Assembly called into a special 
session so that they would give consideration to these amendments and repeal 
them. It was impossible for me to see Governor Horner because of his illness, 
but I did have conferences with Mr. Neil H. Jacoby, chairman of the Illinois 
Emergency Relief Commission ; Leo Lyons, executive secretary of the Illinois 
Emergency Relief Commission : and also with various other State officials who 
were in touch with Governor Horner, namely, Samuel Nudelman. director of the 
department of finance; Charles S. Schwarts. chairman of the State tax commis- 
sion : and Alexander Wilson, administrative assistant to the Governor. 

All of them stated that it was their opinion that the Governor would not call 
a !<pecial session of the legislature earlier than the fall of 1940, and it was not 
certain that he would do so then. In the third place, the constitutionality of the 
law was carefully examined by the legal aid committee of the directors of the 
United Charities "under the chairmanship of Edward D. McDougal, Jr. In some 
of the meetings in which these amendments were being examined there were 
representatives of the Legal Aid Bureau of the Jewish Charities, the Association 



944 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



of Attorney.s General, the American Public Welfare As.sociation, and the Chicago 
Relief Administration. It was felt that there was a reasonable chance that the 
supreme court would declare the amendnients unconstitutional. Therefore, spe- 
cial money was obtained to defray the costs of the proceedings, and Mr. Charles P. 
Meegan was employed to file an original petition for mandamus before the 
Supreme Court of Illinois. This petition was filed for five different relators 
who were eligible for public relief on every other account except the residence 
requirements set up in the amendments to the Pauper Act which we are disscuss- 
ing. The Jewish Charities of Chicago have agi-eed to pay a proportionate share 
of the costs of this suit. The petition is supported by afiidavits from the United 
Charities, the Jewish Social Service Bureau, the Salvation Army, and the Catholic 
Charity Bureau of the Archdiocese of Chicago. 

The original petition was filed on June 4, 1940. There was an oral argument 
on June 18, 1940. The supreme court has this matter under advisement, not yet 
having rendered its decision. The petitioner's briefs and the reply brief have 
been given to Mr. A. Kramer, representative of the house committee on migration. 
It is hoped that the members of the house committee on migration will study the 
arguments set forth therein. AVhile the briefs concern themselves in the main 
with relators who have spent most of their lives in Illinois, some of the principles 
and arguments in the briefs relate equally well to interstate migration. 

As general superintendent of the United Charities, I do not assume to set forth 
any answer to the extremely difficult problem of migration. I am merely setting 
forth the unnecessary and unreasonable suffering which now exists in Illinois 
because of unfair, unjust, and discriminating legislation passed by the Illinois 
General Assembly. I believe that similar situations exist in other States. In 
our dealings with these migratory families we become conscious of so many 
things that are not done for them or with them. The first is that many of them 
come to Chicago with very little information concerning work opp<irtunitieSf 
partly because there is no way of their obtaining such information in the com- 
munities from which they come. At the present time, so far as we know, there 
is no public agency to give information to many people who want to move perma- 
nently from areas in which it seems impossible to make a living — such as dust 
bowls, drought areas, some coal fields, etc. Also, so far as we know, there is 
no public agency prepared to give these families assistance and service in new 
communities until they become through permanent employment, self-supporting 
units in the new community. It .seems to me that neither of these are likely to 
be done by any other government agency than the Federal (government. 

The movement of workers from one part of this country to another is certainly 
a matter of national concern. In order to have it done so that the migratory 
people may go to places where there are wage-earning opportunities or the possi- 
bility of self-support in agriculture, it seems to me that the Federal Government 
must enter into the program in some manner. It is a satisfaction to have a 
congressional committee giving careful consideration to the matter of migration, 
a thing of national concern. 



Family Service Bureau, United Cliahties of Chicago: Comparison of total a^JiJli- 
cations, relief cases, and expenditures irith non-resident applications, relief 
cases and relief expenditures, Nov. J. 1939, through June 30. 19JfO 





Applications 


Relief cases 


Relief expenditures 


Month 


Total 


Nonres- 
ident 


Percent 

non- 
resident 


Total 


Nonres- 
ident 1 


Percent 
non- 
resi- 
dent 


Total 


Nonres- 
ident 


Percent 

non- 
resident 


November 1939 

December 1939 


1, 547 
1.632 
1,768 
1,814 
1,736 
l.e08 
1,384 
1,664 


215 
234 
258 
243 
245 
202 
1.53 
139 


13.8 
14.3 
14.5 
13.3 
14.1 
12.5 
11.0 
8.3 


1,187 
1,348 
1,398 
1,438 
1,493 
1,420 
1,289 
1,232 


67 
159 
261 
312 
355 
367 
3.38 
313 


5.6 
11.7 
18.6 
21.6 
23.7 
25.8 
26.2 
25.4 


$39, 188 
44, 123 
44, 589 
46, 424 
49, 627 
49. 146 
43, 604 
39,814 


1,072 
3, 534 
7.957 


8^0 


Janusirv 1940 


17.8 


February 1940 - . 

March 1940 


8.770 ; 18.8 
10.609 ! 21.3 


April 1940 


11.849 • 24.1 


May 1940 

June 1940 2 . .. 


12. 696 29. 1 
9. 841 : L'4. 7 








13, 153 


1,689 


12.8 








356, 515 


66, 328 18. 6 















■LBeainninc in December this figure includes nonresident relief cases carried over from the previous 
month as well as new relief cases. 
' Increase in total applications in June due to requests for summer outings. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 945- 

TESTIMONY OF JOEL D. HUNTER— Resumed 

Mr. Curtis. In this statement yon have discnssed this matter. 
Mr. Hunter. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. We want to thank yon for it. I have given some 
attention to it, but there are a few questions I woukl like to ask. 
My. Huntkr. Yes. 
Mr. Curtis. You have beeu at our hearing all day today, have 



^'OU 



Mr. Hunter. I did not come in until after the mayor had testified. 
I have been here since then. 

Mr. Curtis. The idea you ]3resent in your paper is somewhat simi- 
lar to wliat has previously been submitted by some of the witnesses 
in reference to the difficulties you have encountered here in Illinois 
under your new poor law, is that right ? 

Mr. Hunter. There is no question about the size of the difficulty 
encountered. I think more might have been done than has been 
done. 

Mr. Curtis. What do you mean by that ? 

Mr. Hunter. Well, specifically, surplus foods have not been 
granted to nonresident families. They have not been certified to the 
Works Progress Administration. I believe in both of those instances 
the Chicago relief administration could have, through cooperation 
with the Federal Government, given some assistance to the present 
nonresident group in Illinois. 

Mr. Curtis. In other words, you feel that without any change of 
the existing law, they could have handled it a bit differently^ 

Mr. Hunter. I think they could have done something — perhaps 
not adequateh^ taken care of them — but could have done more with 
the cooperation of Federal Government agencies. 

Mr. Curtis. I do not believe, so far as the committee is concerned — 
at least, I was not — that we were aware of this amended law that 
you speak of, made last year. We were not aw^are of that until we 
got here for the investigation. We do not want to draw any unfair- 
conclusions against your legislature, but has any attempt been macle- 
to modify this law in the light of how it has worked out? 

attack on ILLINOIS POOR LAW 

Mr. Hunter. If I might, I would like very briefly to repeat,. 
Mr. Congressman, what we have done in the United Charities. 

Mr, Curtis. We would like to have you. 

Mr. Hltnter. I think this amended law is a vicious law. We set 
out to do several different things. First, with what funds we were 
able to obtain, we endeavored to grant aid and assistance to people 
who are ineligible for public relief because of the new^ law. 

We also made what efforts we could to have the law amended. 
Our board of directors asked me to do what I could to have a special 
session of the legislature called to consider changing these amend- 
ments. I could not reach Governor Horner, but I conferred with 
Mr. Jacob}^ chairman of the Illinois Emergency Relief Commis- 
sion; Mr. Lyons, executive secretary of the Illinois Emei'gency Re- 
lief Commission; Mr. Samuel Xudelman, Mr. Charles S. Schwartz^ 



946 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

and Mr. Alexander Wilson, various executives in tlie State depart- 
ments. I do not know with how much authority they speak for 
the Governor, but they said there would be very little likelihood of 
having a special session of the legislature until some time in the fall 
of 1940, if tlien. 

Our board of directors then authorized our attacking the law in the 
Supreme Court. The lawyers felt there was a 50-50 chance it was 
unconstitutional. There is no question about it being unjust, unfair, 
and very discriminatory. We selected certain cases, and in the names 
of five different families we filed a mandamus action. It was a friendly 
suit filed against Mr. Lyons, who is a friendly party to the whole 
proceeding, to have the law declared unconstitutional. 

The Supreme Court has the matter under advisement now. The 
hearing was held about the middle of June, and decision probably will 
not be rendered until they meet in the October term. We had hoped 
for a vacation decision, but it has not come. 

WORK OF PRIVATE AGENCIES 

Mr. Curtis. Now, with respect to your agency, what is ha})pening 
is that persons who could not qualify under this law were shifted to 
private agencies, were they not ? 

Mr. Hunter. Well, as far as we could handle them. 

Mr. Curtis. Yes. 

Mr. Hunter. I will be glad to give you this statement. We have 
actually given in relief aid, not administrative cost, $82,085.94 since 
last October. In the first week we gave only $108. In the last week it 
was $2,740. It is a growing thing, because these people, many of them, 
remain for awhile. They are eligible for public relief on every other 
count except nonresident law. 

We now have under our care 796 families, which is all we can take 
care of. I have had to issue bulletins to our offices saying that we can 
take on no more nonresident cases after August 26, which is next 
Monday. 

Mr. Curtis. How many families? 

Mr. Hunter. Seven hundred and ninety-six different families, for 
whom we have spent $82,085.94 in relief. 

Mr. Curtis. Seven hundred and ninety-six families ? 

Mr. Hunter. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. When you say "nonresident," that means "nonresident" 
as defined by your new law ? 

Mr. Hunter. Nonresident, as defined by the amendments to the 
Pauper Act. 

Mr. Curtis. How many of them are actually interstate migrants? 

Mr. Hunter. We have not conducted a study, except at about the 
end of the first 2 months. Then we made a study, and there were 
22 and a fraction percent that were interstate ; about 22 or 23 percent 
were within Illinois and as near as we could tell, there were half that 
had no legal settlement anywhere. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 947 

Mr. Curtis. I was ver}' mucli intei'ested in this chart on the hist page 
of your statement. Do you have any specific conchision or idea you' 
Avould hke to point out to the committee in regard to that? 

Mr. HuxTEK. Those are the detailed figures, Congressman. I woukl 
like to say, in the first place, it is impossible for a private charity here, 
or in any other city, to meet this situation. Ordinarily less than 1 
percent of our cases are what we call nonresident cases. Now it is 
more than 25 percent, and as I say, we are going to have to stop. We 
believe it is part of our responsibility as a private organization which 
is aware of community conditions, to try to have this vicious law 
changed. 

I would like to put in here, if I may, and give you as part of the 
record a letter from the township supervisor in the village of Thorn- 
ton, because of the boast that the townsliip supervisors have the re- 
sponsibility for having this law passed by the legislature. This is a 
photostatic copy of a letter of one township supervisor to another. 

The Chairman. It will be received as part of the record, 

(Letter of township supervisor of Thornton village. 111. :) 

[Note. — Photostatic copy. Name of township supervisor, to whom letter was addressed, 

ha.s been deleted] 

Township of Thornton, October .5, 19S9. 

Dear : Jt seem.s that .•^oine of the supervisors of Cook County are not 

interested, after the work that was done in Springfield to save their jolis as over- 
seers of the poor. You know that Mr. Cerniak, of Berwyn, and ;\Ir. Propper. of 
Thornton townshi]), were appointed as a lesiislative committee to attend tlie last 
session of the legislature and work against hills tliat were introduced which were 
detrimental to tlie overseers of the poor and the taxpayers, and in favor of bills 
wliich would benefit the taxpayers and retain the overseers of the poor in otHce. 

Mr. Cermak did not render any services at Springfield, but Mr. Propper at- 
tended tiie sessions from the time that they convened until the last day of the 
session on June 3U. He attended the sessions nearly every week dtiring the five 
and a half months that the legislature was in session and advanced all of liis 
expenses during that tin^.e. He received some money on account from some of the 
supervisors, but there is still due him at this time .$206.92, which should have been 
paid immediately after .Inly 1. 

►Some of you d<» n(»t realize what it meant to combat the bills that were intro- 
duced at Springfield. There were S-'j different bills introduced in tlie senate and 
house of representatives during the last session. Out of these bills there were 
tliree senate bills, Nos. 41(i, 417, and 418, which were very detrimental to the 
overseers of the poor. In these bills they tried to create county bureaus and 
departments to administer relief. These bills were passed in the senate, but Mr. 
Propper stopped them in the house, l)ecause the chairman of the judiciary com- 
mittee was a friend of his and had these Itills held in the conunittee until the 
legislattrre ad.lourned. Tlien house bill N(j. 272, which fixed the residence at 3 
years in the State of Illinois before a person could ask for relief, was anotlier bill 
that Mr. Propper worked for and had passed. H(juse bill No. 1022, authorizing 
bonds to be issued to pay debts, was another bill that was passed at tlie last ses- 
sion, and the two senate bills increasing appropriations for the poor relief for tlie 
months of May and .Tune were also passed. Then all the rest of the bills out of 
the 35 which were introduced that were detrimental in some foi-m t(j the town- 
shiijs and overseers of the poor and taxpayers of the townships, were killed by 
lobbyists from down-State and Mr. Propper. 

You must remember that every suiiervisor throughout the State of Illinois got 
the benefit of the legislation that was passed in favor of the overseers of the poor, 
and therefore each one should be interested in seeing that the expense is paid for 
that kind of W(jrk. 



'-94g INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

An assossment of $20 was made by tlif Cdok (bounty Supervisors Association 

■ at their July meeting, and only a few have made this payment. We would like to 
have you send your check for .$20 to the secretary of the organization, Mr. Otto 
Ziehen. Harvey, Cook County, III., R. F. I). No. 1. If you have paiil $10 on account 
of this $20 assessment, then of course you should only pay $10 at this time. 

It is certainly not fair to Mr. Propper to carry this burden because he happens 
to be the president of the Cook County organization. He has always been willing 
to do his part for good legislation in favor of the supervisors as overseers of the 
poor or otherwise, and we hope that you will make it your duty to see that these 

■ checks are sent in immediately to Mr. Ziebell. 

Thanking you in advance for doing so, we are, 
Respectfully yours, 

W. F. Proppek, President. 
Otto Zifbell, Secretary. 

Mr. Curtis. We are olad to have something along that line in the 
record, because, although we did not come here to referee \Yhat issues 
might arise in the Illinois Legislature, we are interested in the problem 
generally. We are very glad for this contribution that you have made 
here. 

NECESSITY OF FEDERAL RELIEF AID 

Mr. Hunter. I introduce that because it seems to me that the Federal 
<j()verninent must enter into this situation. You know that the relief 
responsibility in Illinois is in the towmships, of which there are 1,454. 
I think anyone would realize that migratory relief could not be well 
taken care of in 1,4^4 different units in any one State. I think it can 
well be said that the Federal Government enters into the picture. Per- 
haps I am getting a little ahead of your questions, but it seems to me 
tliat is a prerequisite for the handling of migratory dependent families, 
moving from one State to another. 

How should the Federal Government come in? It seems to me — 
tliis is only my individual opinion — that all of these people should be 
handled in the same administrative group as those who are dependent 
•on general relief. I believe that the best wa}' in which that could be 
done would be to have the Federal Goveinment administer or else con- 
trol through grants-in-aid, general relief in which migratory families 
play a part. That is the only way in which you can get any unity of 
procedure or adequacy of relief and service in the various States. 

The townships, as you will see from that letter, are trying to protect 
themselves, to stop spending money in the locality, which is a perfectly 
understandable thing. They do not want people coming to Maywood, 
or Cicero, or Berwyn, or Park Ridge. They are protecting their own 
provincial area. It is perfectly understandable. 

Mr. Curtis. Is the problem different in the rural area and the metro- 
politan city with reference to attracting people in search of jobs? 

Mr. Hunter. There are people that go from one area to another be- 
cause of the relief situation. We all hear that they do. I personally 
do not know of anyone who has done that, nor have our workers ever 
told me that tliey had an absolute case where they knew someone had 
<:'ome from village A to city B to get more relief. As all the other 
people testified, it is for work. 

Ml'. Curtis. I do not think you understood my question. 

Mr. Hunter. Pardon me. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 949 

Mr. Curtis. Is the problem essentially different in the rnral part of 
your State and the city of Chica<i()^ 

Mr. Hunter. This law all'ects the whole State. A good many of the 
iiii'al areas in the State of Illinois have disregarded it. The State of 
Illinois does not have sufficient administrative control over the town- 
sliip su})ervisors to tell them the}- must live in accordance with this 
law. They have accounting control and certain financial control, but 
not sufficient control to make them obey the law. Mr. Lyons is obeying 
the law in Chicago because he is both secretary of the Chicago Emer- 
gency Relief Commission and Chicago relief administrator. 

]SIr. Curtis. I have nothing further. 

The Chairman. jNIr. Hunter, 1 have heard men like you talk about 
this problem, but it seems to me there are several elements in it, and 
no one can answer. 

Mr. Hunter. That is true. 

The Chairman. In the first place, there is scarcely an American 
family that wants to leave home, if they are getting along all right 
at home. 

Mr. Hunter. I think that is true. 

The Chairman. But you have soil erosion. You have dust storms. 
You have mechanization. Some of them simply cannot stay at 
liome. 

Mr. Hunter. I think that is correct. 

The Chairman. I am inclined to agree with you that there 
should be some classification into which these migrant destitute citi- 
zens would fit. We have never given them a classificaticm in the 
160 years since the Government was created. They are wandering 
now, as we have said many times, Stateless and homeless. On the 
other hand, you cannot make it too nice, because it may encourage 
them, don't you see? 

^Ir. Hunteb. Yes. 

The Chairman. We are certainly very indebted to you for what 
you have given us. I have read everything you have presented here. 

Mr. Hunter. The brief ? 

The Chairman. Yes. I think it is a fine contribution and we are 
very much pleased. Your presentation will have a high place in our 
report when we finally come to make it. The paper which you have 
submitted has been received as part of the formal record and given 
the appropriate exhibit number. 

Thank you very much, Mr. Hunter. 

Mr. Hunter. Thank you, sir. 

(Wliereupon, Mr. Hunter was excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF JEAN ZGORSKI 

The Chairman. The next witness will be Jean Zgorski. Please 
give your name to the reporter. 
Mrs. Zgorski, Jean Zgorski. 
The Chairman. Are you married? 
Mrs. Zgorski. Yes. 
The Chairman. Where were yon born? 



950 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mrs. Zgorski. Here in Chicago. 

Tlie Chairman. I do not think you would be insulted if I asked 
you how old you are, would you ? 

Mrs. Zgokski. Thirty-two. 

The Chairman. AVhere were you married? 

Mrs. Zgorski. Here in Chicago. 

The Chairman. When? 

Mrs. Zgorski. September 20. 1930. 

Ihs Chairman. Have you any children? 

Mrs. Zgcrski. Yes. 

The Chairman. How many? 

Mrs. Zgorski. Three. 

T e Chairman. How old are they? 

Mrs. Zgorski. Shirley is 9. Richard is 7i/o. Arlene is 414. All 
ha^ e been born here. 

The Chairman. Are they with you now? 

Mrs. Zgorski. Yes. 

The Chairman. Wliat is your husband's occupation? 

]\Irs. Zgorki. He is a plasterer and painter. 

The Chairman. Where is he now? 

Mrs. Zgorski. He is down in JNIiami, Fla., we think. 

The Chairman. I see. 

Mrs. Zgorski. We have not been able to get in touch with him at 
Miami Relief or Chicago Relief. We don't know where he is at 
right now. 

Tlie Chairman. Did he generally make good wages at his work? 
•^-;Mrs, Zgorski. He has been the last 2 or 3 years. At least. I think 
so. 

The Chairman. Did he desert you? 

Mrs. Zgorski. Yes. 41/2 years ago. 

The Chairman. Have you seen him since? 

Mrs. Zgorski. Yes. I have seen him. in January. 

Tlie Chairman. It was in October 1935 when he deserted you? 

Mrs. Zgorski. Yes. 

The Chairman. Did he just pull up stakes? 

Mrs. Zgorski. No. He wrote me from Miami and asked me to come 
down there. I didn't want to go there, because he had left me. and I 
was rraHy afraid to go back to him. I called up the relief and 
asked them, should I go to him or stay here, and they told me on the 
telephone I should go to him. That is what they told me. 

The Chairman. I see. 

Mrs. Zgorski. I didn't want to go. T went there. Hv" sent uie 
tickets. I went there and stayed there from January until June. I 
left Chicago January 24 and stayed there until June 14. Then I 
came back here to Chicago. He gave me money to come back here, 
and sent me back here, and told me he was going to take care of me 
and supi:>ort the children. 

He didn't do it. I was here from June 14 until July 17. T think. 
I was here a little over a month. I tried to get a job. He didn't 
send me any money like he said he would. About the only thing I 



I 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 951 

could see to do was to ojo to the relief, I went to the relief and asked 
if I could G:et relief. They said no, because I had left the State. 

They told me to go ahead and borrow money, and go ahead back 
to Miami. They said they couldn't give me relief. My mother bor- 
rowed money to send me back there. I was there from Friday of 
that one week to the next week, Thursday. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mrs. Zgorski. They were looking for my husband there. They 
couldn't find him. 

The Chairman. I see. 

Mrs. Zgorski. The judge there told me to go down to the city 
charities in Miami. I went down there, and Mrs. Bain sent me back 
here. She told me she absolutely couldn't give me my relief, because 
I wasn't there long enough. 

The Chairman. Did you have your children with you ? 

]Mrs. Zgorski. Yes. She sent us all back here. 

The Chairman. She sent you back here? 

Mrs. Zgorski. Yes. 

The Chairman. How did your husband get to Florida ? 

Mrs. Zgorski. We don't know. I don't know yet until today why 
he left here, and went there. 

The Chairman. How did he get there? 

Mrs. Zgorski. The way I think he went there, must have been in 
the car. 

The Chairman. Did he have a car? 

Mrs. Zgorski. He had a car at that time. 

The Chairman. How long has it been since you have heard from 
him ? 

^Irs. Zgorski. About 4 weeks now. That was in Miami. Not since 
I have been here. 

The Chairman. How are you living? Are you supporting your- 
self? 

Mrs. Zgorski. Here? 

The Chairman. Yes. 

]Mrs. Zgorski. I haA'e been on relief ever since Arlene was born, up 
until January. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mrs. Zgorski. Then I Avent there. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mrs. Zgorski. I went there against my will, because I didn't want 
to go there. I didn't want to go back to him. I wanted to get him 
to take care of the children. They told me at relief I couldn't get 
a divorce. I asked them for work, and they told me I couldn't do 
any P. W. A. work. I am able to sew. I was able to go out and 
do any type of selling, although I can't since Arlene was born. I got 
a pain in my right leg, and I'm not able to do that kind of work so 
much, but 1 can sew. 

I asked relief to give me work several times, and they told me they 
couldn't do it. The first reason they told me was. when Arlene was 
about 6 months old, that she was too little. When she was about a 
year and a half old. I asked again, and they told me I couldn't get 



260370— 40— pt. 3 10 



952 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

W. P. A. work. I told them there was other women there wlio had 
three or four or five children that had W. P. A. jobs. They didn't say 
aiiythino-. They told me I couldn't o-et a job. Arlene was ^Vo when 
I asked a^ain. and they told me I couldn't jzet a W. P. A. job because 
they were laying them off. 

The Chairman. How long have you been altogether on reliefs 

Mrs. Zgorski. How long have I been altogether on relief^ 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mrs. Zgorski. I have been on relief from when Arlene was born up 
nntil January. She is 4:^2- She will be 5 in November. 

The Chairman. And since January ? 

Mrs. Zgorski. Since January I went down to ]Miami. and my hus- 
band was supporting me. 

The Chairman. He was supporting you down there? 

Mrs. Zgorski. Yes. Then I came back here with the children. 

The Chairman. You are on relief again ? 

Mrs. Zgorski. No ; they won't give me relief. 

The Chairman. They will not give you relief? 

Mrs. Zgorski. No; they Avon't give me relief, because they told me 
since Miami sent me here. Miami relief sent me back to Chicago, it 
would be hard for me to get relief. They said I should go back to 
Miami again. The Chicago relief here told me that they had written 
to Miami and was waiting for an answer, and they would call me and 
let me k)i<)w when I am su])posed to go down there. 

The Chairman. Where are you living now ? 

Mrs. Zgorski. The Salvation Army. 

The Chairman. The Salvation Army? 

Mrs. Zgorski. Yes; with the three children. 

The Chairman. Do you know the two Lee girls? 

]Mrs. Zgorski. Th.ey are in the same place I am. 

The Chairman. In the same place you are ? 

Mrs. Zgorski. Yes. They are downstairs and Ave are upstairs. 

The Chairman. Do you work there? 

Mrs. Zgorski. We helj) there. 

The Chairman. The three children are there, too ? 

Mrs. Zgorski. Yes. I have all the children with me. 

The Chairman. What kind of work are you able to do? 

Mrs. Zgorski. I am able to sell. I have done office work. I haven't 
done any typing, but I have used a comptometer. I have done filing. 
I haven't done typing or shorthand. I have done general ojffice work. 

The Chairman. Are you willing to have your husband come back 
to you here? 

Mrs. Zgorski. I want him to support the children, but I couldn't 
live with him. It is impossible. They told me to go down there 
214 years ago. I wrote and asked for my husband's — the man he 
worked for. I asked for his name. I wrote to the man he worked 
for and asked if he had a steady job. He told me he didn't have a 
steady job. I wrote and they told me he had a steady job, and 
wanted me to come down there. They told me to go ahead. 

I wanted them to find my husband, and make him support the 
<'liiklren. I wan't asking for anything for myself. I was going to 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 953 

go out and ^ret a job for myself. I wanted him to support the 
diildreu. and he never did. I have been on relief the whole time. 

The Chaikmax. How many people are there at the Salvation Army 
Home where you are? 

Mrs. ZooRSKi. I should say about 40. 

The Chairman. About 40? 

Mrs. Zgokski. Right now. You can't stay there all the time. 
They just let you stay there until you find yourself either a job or 
something, or get on relief. You can't stay there permanently. It 
is just an emergency place. 

The Chairman. What would you do if the Salvation Army had 
not taken you in ( 

Mrs. Zgorski. I don't know what I would do. 

The Chairman. Starve? 

Mrs. Zgorski. I don't know. I don't know what was the matter, 
why they didn't find my husband. I gave them the license number 
of my husband's car, and from Sunday until Thursday they told me 
they couldn't find my husband. He was right there in the city. I 
couldn't understand why they didn't find him. Why did they send 
me back here to Chicago i 1 wanted him to take care of the children, 
and support the children. All I wanted to do was to make him sup- 
port the children. Pie is making $35 a week. Why didn't they get 
him and make him support the children ? I couldn't understand that. 

They gave me money to buy tickets, and sent me to Chicago. They 
told me they couldn't help me. They told me to come back here. I 
told them when I got here, "'What am I going to do?" They said 
down there they couldn't help me. and they gave me the tickets to 
come up here. 

Mr. Parsons. The Florida Relief Agency gave you your tickets to 
come back? 

Mrs. Zgorski. Yes. It is called the city charities. 

Mr. Parsons. Yes. 

Mrs. Zgorski. They told me to come back here. I says, "When I get 
here, what then?" She told me to find something to do. Well, it 
isn't as easy as that to go ahead and do it. You can't do it. You can't 
just go ahead and get a job just by saj'ing "Go out and get a job." and 
then get it. It isn't that easy. 

The Chairman. Then, as I understand it, you are not entitled to 
relief either in Florida or in Illinois ? 

Mrs. Zgorski. No. When I got there, they told me I wasn't eligible 
for relief there. They told me I wasn't entitled to relief here. So I 
couldn't figure out where I was at. When I got here from Miami, they 
told me to borrow the money to go back to Miami. I couldn't figure 
that out, because I was })orn and raised here. The children have all 
been born here. I couldn't figure it out. I still can't figure it out, 
why they want me to go back there. When I was there not quite a 
week, they sent me back here. AVhen I get back here, they want to send 
nie back there. 

The Chairman. Who told you to go and borrow the money? 

Mrs. Zgorski. Relief told me to go out and borrow the money. 

Mr. Curtis. Do you know where that is located? 



954 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mrs. Zgokski. One hundred and eighty West Polk Street. 

Mr. Curtis. Do yon know the name of the individual who advised 
you to leave the State of Illinois? 

Mrs. Zgorski. No. I don't know her name. She didn't tell me her 
name, but I would know her if I saw her. 

Mr. Curtis. Did she have any correspondence with Florida to find 
out whether you could qualify for aid down there? 

Mrs. Zgorski. No. She just told me to go and borrow the money. I 
said, "Sister, I don't know how^ I can borrow the money. It isn't so 
easy to go ahead and borrow the money." 

Mr, Curtis. You do not know her name ? 

Mrs. Zgorski. No. I do not know her name. 

Mr. Curtis. Do you know whether she was employed by the Federal 
Government or by the city of Chicago? 

Mrs. Zgorski. She must have been employed by the Chicago relief. 
She was there in the office. There is several women there talking to 
you. 

Mr. Curtis. Where in Chicago is this Salvation Army shelter? 

Mrs. Zgorski. Twelve hundred and thirty West Adams. 

Mr. Curtis. Your husband deserted you while you were in tlie State 
of Illinois? 

Mrs. Zgorski. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. You condoned that when you went to Florida ? 

Mrs. Zgorski. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. You lived with him how long ? 

Mrs. Zgorski. From January until June. 

Mr. Curtis. Then he deserted you again? 

Mrs. Zgorski. Yes. We didn't live together. I had my own room 
and he had his own room. 

Mr. Parsons. He fed you and the children? 

Mrs. Zgorski. What is it? 

Mr. Parsons. He fed you and the children? 

Mrs. Zgorski. Not the way he was supposed to. He didn't give 
me enough money to run the house. 

Mr. Curtis. But in Florida they told you you could not compel 
him to sujiport his children when he had work? 

Mrs. Zgorski. They told me they couldn't compel him. I told 
Mrs. Bain at the relief there — they couldn't find him. Tliey told 
me they couldn't find him when I was in Miami. They had his 
license "number, and I don't think they made any effVn-t to find him, 
because I am sure ]Miami isn't a large city. I am most sure from 
Sunday until Thursday they could have found him. They had his 
description. I had a description of the car and everything. They 
told me they couldn't find him. 

Mr. Curtis. What work does he do down there? 

Mrs. Zgorski. He is a plasterer and iniinter. He does both. 

Mr. Curtis. Has he had steady work most of the time? 

Mrs. Zgorski. When I was there he worked pretty steady. 

Mr. Curtis. How much did he make? 

Mrs. Zgcrski. I imagine he averaged $35 or $40 a week. Never 
less than $30. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 955 

The Chairman. A week? 

Mrs. Zgorski. A week. 

Mr. Curtis. It occurs to me, Mr. Chairman, that the desertion is 
subject to the Fk)rida law only, and not the Illinois law, because it 
^\as condoned. She went down there, and then they deported the 
complaininor witness. 

The Chairman. I will appoint 3'OU as a special committee to inves- 
tigate that. 

Mr. Curtis. Thank you. 

Mr. Sparkman. How long had your husband been in Florida 
before you Avent down there ^ 

Mrs. Zgorski. Five years, October 16. 

Mr. Sparkman. I mean how long had he been there before you 
went down there? 

Mrs. Zgorski. About 4 years. A little over 4 years. 

Mr. Sparkman. He had been there more than a year? 

Mrs. Zgorski. A little over 4 years. 

Mr. Sparkman. That is all. 

Mr, Parsons. Do you have any relatives in Chicago at all? 

Mrs. Zgorski, Yes. My mother is here. 

Mr. Parsons. "What is your maiden name? 

Mrs. Zgorski. Wigless. 

Mr. Parsons. Your mother is still living? 

]Mrs. Zgorski, Yes. 

Mr. Parsons, Are there any other members of your family living? 

Mrs. Zgorski. My sister is living with her, but I couldn't have a 
place there. She put me out. In fact, when I was here in Chicago 
the first time, before they sent me, she told me she couldn't support 
me. I told lier if I could stay there until I got a job. I would thank 
her. She told me she couldn't support me, and that I should get 
out. My mother wants me to stay with her, but my sister don't. 

Mr. Parsons. Who is providing for your mother ? 

Mrs. Zgorski. My sister is. She is supporting my mother. My 
mother isn't able to work. 

Mr. Parsons. Is yoiw mother old enough for old-age assistance 
in Illinois i 

Mrs. Zgorski. Xo. She is 59. 

Mr. Parsons. Your sister is supporting her? 

ISIrs. .Zgorski. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. What does your sister do? 

Mi-s. Zgorski. She is a telephone operator, 

Mr. Parsons. Is she married ? 

jNIrs. Zgorski. No, 

Mr. Parsons, How much does she make per week ? 

Mrs. Zgorski. She makes about $23 or $24 a week. 

Uv. Parsons. That is all. 

Mr. Ci-RTis. What is your husband's first name ? 

Mrs. Zgorski. Alexander. 

Mr. Sparkman. Mrs. Zgorski, let me make this suggestion: You 
said you could not understand why the relief people here were telling 



Q56 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

you to go to Florida. The settlement law in Florida is 1 year. Your 
husband, having been down there for more than 1 year, had acquired 
settlement in Florida. You being his legal wife, his residence be- 
came your residence, and therefore your settlement is transferred to 
Florida. Tliat is the reason they advised you to go. 

:Mrs. Zgoeski. They told me*^in Chicago at the relief that as long 
as his residence was there, naturally mine was there. 

Mr. Sparkman. Yes. 

Mrs. Zgorski. Because I had been married to him. 

Mr. Sparkman. Yes. 

Mrs. Zgorski. When I got down to Miami, they didn't see it that 
way. They sent me back here. Why, I don't know. I can't figure 
it out myself. 

Mr. Sparkman. That simply illustrates the problem we run into- 
in various places. 

Mrs. Zgorski. Now they are debating between the two of them. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mrs. Zgorski. We appre- 
ciate your having been here. 

(Whereupon, Mrs. Zgorski was excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF JOHN B. BENNETT 

The Chairman. The next witness will be Mr. John B. Bennett. 

Congressman Sparkman will interrogate you, Mr. Bennett. 

Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Bennett, give your name, where you live, and 
your age to the reporter. 

Mr. Bennett. John B. Bennett, 5256 East Grant, Chicago. 

Mr. Sparkman. What is your age? 

Mr. Bennett. Fifty-two. 

Mr. Sparkman. Where is your home? I mean, where were you 
born ? 

Mr. Bennett. I was born in Boulder, Colo. 

Mr. Sparkman. How long have you been in Chicago? 

Mr. Bennett. Since along the latter part of January. 

Mr. Sparkman. January of this year? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Where did you come from? 

Mr. Bennett. AVell, I came from, you might say. Oklahoma, here. 

Mr. Sparkman. How long had you lived in Oklahoma? 

Mr. Bennett. I had been living there not so very long. My situa- 
tion is probably a little different from the ordinary ones you might 
have had. 

Mr. Sparkman. That is what we are trying to get. 

Mr. Bennett. I see. I am a salesman. 

Mr. Sparkman. Talk louder, please. 

Mr. Bennett. I have not been employed by anyone in the last 2 
years outside of selling products. I sell on a commission basis. 

Mr. Sparkman. Have you always been a salesman? 

Mr. Bennett. Practically all my life. 

Mr. Sparkman. Were you ever in any business of your own? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 957 

Mr. Sparkman. AVhat kind? 

]Mr. Bennett. The manufacturing business; the specialty nianufac- 
tui'ing business in Los xVngeles. 

Mr. Sparkman. When was that? 

]\Ir. Bennett. Up until 1025. 

Mr. Sparkman. Up until 1925? 

Mr. Benneti\ Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Then you went on the road as a salesman ? 

INIr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. SparKxAian. Selling what? 

Mr. Bennett. I have sold a great many different things. 

Mr. Sparkinian. Keep your voice up, please, so we can all hear you. 

Mr. Bennett. It would be pretty hard for me to enumerate all that 
I iiave sold. 

]Mr. Sparkman. Just different things? 

Mr. Bennett. Different things. 

Mr. Sparkman. Are you married? 

Mr. Bennett. I am married; j^es. 

Mr. Sparkman. Where did you marry? 

Mr. BiNNETT. I married in Oklahoma. 

Mr. Sparkman. Was your wife a resident of Oklahoma? 

INIr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Is she in Chicago with you? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Have you any children? 

Mr. BENNiyrr. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. How many? 

Mr. Bennett. Well, I have three stepchildren and one of our own. 

Mr. Sparkman. You mean your wife has three children by a previous 
marriage ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Then you and she have one child? 

Mr. Bennett. She and I have one child. 

Mr. Sparkman. How old is that child that was born to you and her? 

Mr. Bennett. Three weeks old last Saturday. 

Mr. Sparkman. Three weeks old last Saturday? 

Mr. Bennett. That is correct. 

Mr. Sparkman. That is your only child? 

Mr. Bennett. That is our only child. 

Mr. Sparkman. Do her children by the former marriage live with 
you ? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Sparkman. Where are they? 

Mr. Bennett. They are with her parents in Oklahoma. 

Mr. Sparkman. Do you have any legal residence, and, if so, where? 

Mr. Bennett. I have not. I don't suppose I would be considered as 
having a legal residence for the simple reason that for the last 10 years 
I have been traveling practically all over the United States, and I sup- 
pose that I have not stayed in one place long enough to establish a legal 
residence. You might say that the last legal residence I had was in 
Los Angeles, or Pasadena, or, rather, Glendale. 



g^g INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. Sparkman. Have you looked for work since coming to Chicago? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes, indeed, I have. 

Mr. Sparkman. Have you found any? 

Mr. Bennett. No. 

Mr. Sparkman. Are you still looking for it? 

Mr. Bennett. No ; I am not looking for any at all now. 

Mr. Sparkman. Have you had any help from any organization? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Public or private ? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. What organization? 

Mr. Bennett. The Salvation Army has helped me. 

Mr. Sparkman. Are they helping you now ? 11, 

Mr. Bennett. Well, I couldn't say whether they have— whether they 
would be anv longer or not. My situation is simply this, and I wdl try 
to explain it to you : When I came to Chicago, I came here endeavoring 
to "-et some other lines of goods to add to the ones I was already selling. 
I worked here in Chicago for probably two months and a half selling. 
In the meantime, my wife's health got into a condition where she could 
not travel. I coukrnot find anything here that you might consider to 
be a desirable thing, what I might be looking for. Up until about three 
mtmths and a half or so, or -f months ago, my wife's condition was such 
that she could not travel. 

Well I had sold, vou might say, what products I was selling, 
about all that I could sell. In the meantime, I had tried several 
other things, but I found the competition here in Chicago so sharp 
and everyone so well represented that it was an impossibility for me 
to do anything at all, practically speaking, with it. We tried to 
survive as long as we could. Of course, I had to have my wife 
taken care of. I either had to hire someone to do it or do it myself. 

We got into pretty desperate circumstances. The only thing I 
could do was to apply for relief until we were over the emergency 
of her confinement, which was 3 weeks ago last Saturday. 

Mr. Sparkman. You say you applied for relief. Had you had 

relief from any 

Mr. Bennett. From the Salvation Army. 

Mr. Sparkman. You have not had any public relief ? 

Mr. Bennett. No; I have never gotten any. 

efforts to obtain work in CHICAGO 

Mr. Sparkman. How extensively have you looked for work here 

in Chicago? . ....•-, -, 

Mr. Bennett. Well, I have gone out and interviewed individuals 
in stores. I have had quite a lot of experience in the furniture 
business and kindred lines to that. 

Mr. Sparkman. What did you find to be the principal obstacle 
to your getting work? 

Mr. Bennett. AVell, the principal obstacle to my getting work, 
and I think that is true of anyone else— there are really two ob- 
stacles. One is the fact I am not a resident of Chicago. The next 
is I am above the age limit. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 959 

Mr. Sparkman, How old are you? 

Mr. Bennett. Fifty-two. 

Mr. Sparkman. Fifty-two? 

Mr. Bennett. Yes; there have been several instances where I 
have interviewed people who have had advertisements in the paper 
foi- salesmen and kindred things of that kind. But as soon as they 
would see I had a few gray hairs in my head and was past 35 or 
40, I could not even obtain an interview\ Several of the employ- 
ment managers had notified me they were prohibited by their firms 
from employing anyone above 35, or possibly 40 years old. There 
are a great many of the industries who are doing that too. 

Mr. Sparkman. I agree with you, too many of them. 

Mr. Bennett. Now, then, after I had exerted every effort I could 
to find something, going here and there and the other place, to 
department stores and places of that kind, as a last resort I went 
to the employment agencies. I thought there might possibly be an 
opportunity of getting something there from them in answer to their 
advertisements. 

Here is a sample of what I met : There was one advertisement in 
a paper about Si/o months ago for a hardware salesman. I went 
down and put my application in at the employment agency. He 
asked me about my experience, and I told him my experience. 
"Well," he says, "you come back tomoiTow morning at 9 o'clock." 
I says, "Very well," I went back the next morning at 9 o'clock. 
He said, "The man is not there yet, and I have not had an oppor- 
tunity to talk with him. I called him up last night, and as soon as 
he gets in, I will call him up. You come back in 30 minutes." 

I said, "All right I will." After about 30 minutes I went down 
and he said, "There is nothing doing." I said, "Just what do you 
mean by that?'' "AVell," he says, "you are too old.'* 

I said, "Would you mind asking that man, whoever he is" — of course, 
you do not find out who you are being put in connection with through 
the employment agency — "Would you mind asking that man if he 
would let me have the courtesy of simply a personal interview? You 
know," I said, "I am a perfectly physically able man. I know I am 
mentally able. I know I am an efficient man, and probably if I could 
have an interview with the man I could obtain myself a position." 

"Well," he says, "I will tell you: Wait out here a little while and 
we will call him up." I waited, I suppose, 15 or 20 minutes. Then 
he motioned for me to come in. I came into his office and sat down, 
and he says, "Now, we can't get you that job." I said, "Well, maybe 
I could get it. I am only asking for an interview. I just want to 
talk to that man." He says, "No; the firm prohibits him from em- 
ploying anybody over 35 years old. You would simply be w^asting 
your time to go out there." 

That man, whoever he was, would not employ me. He would not 
give me an opportunity to present myself to him. That was only 
one of, I wnll say, a half a dozen instances of that kind. I do not 
know whether all of them are that way or not, but I think the ma- 
jority of them are. 



ggO INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. Spakkman. At least, yon have had enoiioh experience to realize 
that that is a serions obstacle in getting employment? 

Mr. Bennett. I have had enonoh experience to realize that is a 
very serious obstacle in a person, we will say, over 40 years of age, 
regardless of how efficient they might be and regardless of their physi- 
cal condition or how well they are versed in their line of business. It 
is practically an impossibility for you to obtain employment if you 
are above that age limit. 

]Mr. Sparkman. Thank you. That is all, Mr. Chairman. 

The Chairman. You are too old to get a job? _ 

jNIr. Bennett. They say I am too old to get a job. 

The Chairman. You are too young to get a pension? 

Mr. Bennett. I am too young to get a pension. 

The Chairman. What is going to become of thousands and thou- 
sands just like you? 

Mr. Bennett, That is just what the question is. There is a ques- 
tion that must be solved, and it must be solved in an intelligent way, 
so that a person — if a person is mentally handicapped or physically 
handicapped or something like that, there may be some excuse for it. 
Regardless of how efficient you are, or regardless of how much experi- 
ence you have had, it makes no difference what line you are asking 
for work in ; if you are abo^^e that age, you can't get it. 

The Chairman. Yes. 

Mr. Bennett. That is all there is about it. 

The Chairman. I think you missed the bus when you did not get 
that interview. 

Mr. Bennett. Yes. 

The Chairman. I think if you had gotten the interview you would 
liave gotten the job all right. 

Mr. Bennett. Perhaps so. I am an efficient man. I know that. I 
know the business. 

The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Bennett. You may 
be excused. 

(Whereupon Mr. Bennett was excused.) 

Tlie Chairman. Off the record. 

(Discussion outside the record.) 

The Chairman. The committee will stand adjourned until 10 o'clock 
tomorrow morning. 

(Whereupon, at 4:05 p. m., a recess was taken until 10 a. m. to- 
morrow, Tuesday, August 20, 1940.) 



INTEKSTATE MIGRATION 



TUESDAY, AUGUST 20, 1940 

Ht)USE OF Kepkesextatives, 
Select (.'ommittee to IN^-ESTIGATE the 
Interstate Migration of Destitute Citizens, 

Chicago, III. 

The committee met at 10 a. m. in tlie Federal Court Building, 
Chicago, 111., Hon. John H. Tolan (chairman) presiding: 

Present: Prepresentatives .lolm H. Tolan (chairman), Claude V. 
Parsons. John J. Sparkman, Carl T. Curtis, and Frank C. Osmers, Jr. 

Also present : Dr. Robert K. Lamb, chief investigator ; James S. 
Owens, chief field investigator; A. Kramer, field investigator; John 
W. Abbott, field investigator; Ariel E. V. Dunn, field investigator; 
Joseph N. Dotson, field investigator; Robert H. Eagan, field secretary. 

Mr. Parsons. The committee will please come to order. The first 
witness this morning will be Mr. Hayden. 

TESTIMONY OF SPUEGEON HAYDEN 

Mr. Parsons. Mr. Hayden, Congressman Curtis will interrogate 
you. 

Mr. Curtis. ]Mr. Hayden, give your full name to the reporter, 
please. 

Mr. Hayden. Spurgeon Hayden. 

Mr. Curtis. How old are you? 

Mr. Hayden. Forty-three. 

Mr. Curtis. Are you married? 

Mr. Hayden. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. How old is your wife ? 

Mr. Hayden. About 39. 

Mr. Curtis. Do you have any children ? 

Mr. Hayden. Seven. 

Mr. Curtis. How old is the oldest one ? 

Mr. Hayden. She will be 18 December 17. 

Mr. Curtis. How old is the youngest one ? 

Mr. Hayden. Thirteen months old. 

Mr. Curtis. Wliere were you born ? 

Mr. Hayden. Mississippi. 

Mr. Curtis. AVas Mrs. Hayden born there, too ? 

Mr. Hayden. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. How much schooling have vou had ? 

961 



962 ixterstatp: migration 

Mr. Hayden. I ain't had much. 

Mr. Curtis. Have you had some? 

Mr. Hayden, Yes ; I have had some. 

Mr. Curtis. Mrs. Hayden has had some schoolhig? 

Mr. Hayden. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. You went a few years to grade school ? 

Mr. Hayden. Yes; public school, a country school. 

Mr. Curtis. Where was that scliool ? 

Mr. Hayden. That was in Mississippi, in Carroll County, 

Mr. Curtis. Did you spend all of your time in Mississippi until 
you came to Chicago? 

Mr. Hayden. Yes ; all the time. 

Mr. Curtis. When did you come to Chicago? 

Mr. Hayden. December 7, 1939. 

Mr. Curtis. In other words, j'ou have been htre about 6 months? 

Mr. Hayden. Yes. 

Mr, Curtis. What did you do for a living in ISIississippi ? 

Mr. Hayden. Well, I farmed, and day-worked some. I worked in 
the saw mill, corn press, and so forth. 

Mr. Curtis. In the saw mill ? 

Mr. Hayden. Yes; I dug ditches, worked in the saw mill, and I 
farmed some. 

Mr, Curtis, When you say, •'•farmed some," what do yf)U mean? 
Were you a sharecropper ? 

Mr. Hayden. Yes; a sharecropper, 

Mr, Curtis. You did not own any land ^ 

Mr. Hayden. No, sir. 

Mr, Curtis, How man}- acres did you handle when 3'ou were a share- 
cropper ? 

Mr, Hayden, Well, we would have from 12 to 14 or 15 acres in cot- 
ton, something like that. We would have 5 or 6 acres in corn, or some- 
thing like that. 

Mr, Curtis. Did the landlord permit you to have space for a garden ? 

Mr, Hayden, Yes; he gave me a garden. 

Mr. Curtis. Did you have some chickens ? 

Mr. Hayden. Yes ; I had some chickens. 

Mr. Curtis. Did you have any milk cows or hogs? 

Mr, Hayden, I had a milk cow and hogs, 

Mr, Curtis. How did 3'ou get along at that? 

Mr. Hayden. I didn't do so well. 

Mr. Curtis. Were you and your family able to get enough food that 
way ? 

Mr. Hayden. Well, not exactly. Sometimes we would and some- 
times we wouldn't. 

Mr. Curtis. You could not make any money to \m\ anything else ? 

Mr. Hayden. No. Money was scarce, I would make a crop, and 
sometimes collect from $25 to $30, 

Mr. Curtis. How much Avould you get working around in the saw- 
mills, and so forth? 

Mr. Hayden. Well, they paid at that time — they paid a dollar a 
day, or $1.25 down there. For cotton picking you would get about 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 9Q3 

50 cents a limidred. For ])lowin<i: all day loiif;. you "would get 60 cents 
a day, from sunup to sundown, 

Mr. Curtis. Were the children old enou<ih to oet any work in Mis- 
sissippi ? 

Mr. Hayden. They would hoe a little. 

Mr. CuitTis. They helped you when you were farming? 

^h\ Hayden. That is right. They would help when I was farming. 

Mr. Curtis. They could not make any wages any other place ? 

Mr. Hayden. No. 

Mr. Curtis. How many of your children are here in Chicago? 

Mr. Hayden. They are all in school but two. 

Mr. Curtis. When you came into Chicago from IMississippi, did 
you ha\e any trouble getting your children into school ? 

Mr. Hayden. Well, no, sir. They got — they brought a certificate 
from the other school with them. 

Mr. Curtis. You had no difficulty about that? 

Mr. Hayden. Xo. 

Mr. Curtis. Well now, what have you done since you have been in 
Chicago ? 

Mr. Hayden. Well, I worked a little. I— well, I paint a little. I 
have calcimined. I tear down paper, clean buildings, and all like 
that. 

]Mr. Curtis. Did you know someone who gave you that work ? 

Mr. Hayden. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. You knew some of the other workmen there; is that 
liow you got it? 

Mr. Hay^den. Yes. I didn't know them until I came up here 
though, I didn't know them before, 

Mv. Curtis. During the year 1940, this year, have you had work 
most of the time? 

Mr. Hay'dex, No. I ain't got no regular job now. 

Mr. Curtis. About how many days' w^ork do you suppose you would 
have each month? 

Mr. Hayden. I don't know, sir. I worked last month pretty regular, 
I haven't done much this month. 

Mr. Curtis. How about the winter months — January, February, 
and Mai-ch? Did you have any work? 

Mr. Hayden. No, sir. I didn't have no work. 

]\Ir. Curtis. How did you live? 

Mr. Hayden, Well, charity helped me some. 

Mr. Curtis. One of these |)rivate charity organizations in Chicago? 

Mr. Hayden. Yes; on Michner Street. 

Mr. Curtis. Do you know the name of it ? 

Mr. Hayden. It is a bureau. 

Mr. Curtis, I believe they call it United Charities? 

Mr, Hayden^, Yes, 

Mr. Curtis. Is that it ? 

Mr, Hayden, Yes. 

Mr, Curtis. How much did they help you? Did they pay your 
rent i 



9g4 ixterstatp: migration 

Mr. Hayden. They gave me $10 a week for — let's see now. That 
was for about 2 months, or 2 months and a half; something like that. 
It might have been 3 ; I don't know. 

Mr. Curtis. Then yon got a little work? 

Mr. Hayden. A little work ; yes. 

Mr. Curtis. After yon got yonr first work, have they had to help 
yon any since? 

Mr. Hayden. Well, no. sir. They ain't helped me since — let's see^ 
January, February, March — it has been about March since they helped 
me last. 

Mr. Curtis. How nnich money did you have when you arrived in 
Chicago ? 

Mr. Hayden. I had when I got here, about $25 or $30. 

Mr. Curtis. Did you come up in a car ? ^ 

Mr. Hayden. No. I came up on the train. 

Mr. Curtis. You were able to buy your tickets and had $25 or $30 
when you got here ? 

Mr. Hayden. Yes; I was about 2 years or longer saving that up 
10 get up here. 

Mr. Curtis. You sold your chickens and pigs ? 

Mr. Hayden. Yes; and one thing and another. 

Mr. Curtis. Have you applied for any other relief here? 

Mr. Hayden. I went down to the place on Harrison Street. They 
said I hadn't been here long enough. 

]\Ir. Curtis. That was for public relief? 

Mr. Hayden. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. They told you you were not a resident of Chicago ? 

Mr. Hayden. No. 

Mr. Curtis. That you had not been here long enough ? 

Mr. Hayden. No. 

Mr. Curtis. You have not had any work this month of August? 

Mr. Hayden. Yes. I had a little work, the same place, cleaning 
Imildings. 

Mr. Curtis. Have you any work now ? 

INIr. Hayden. I Avorked yesterday until 12. The man told me he 
might have some more tomorrow. 

Mr. Curtis. How much do you make? 

Mr. Hayden. He gave me $1.50. 

Mv. Curtis. $1.50 for the morning? 

Mr. Hayden. No; for the whole day. 

]Mr. Curtis. For the whole day? 

]\Ir. Hayden. For the whole day. That ain't enough, but I had 
to do something to live, don't you know? 

Mr. Curtis. Yes. How did it happen you decided to leave Mis- 
sissippi ? 

Mv. Hayden. I just got tired of that job we had. We didn't have 
enough to live. We couldn't send the children to school. 

Mr. Curtis. Why did you pick out Chicago? 

Mr. Hayden. Well, I heard a whole lot of talk about Chicago. 

Mr. Curtis. Did you have any friends here? 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 955 

Mr. Hayd?:n. Xo. I didn't ha\"e no friends here, but my folks 
had been here, and ^one back, and I talked to them. 

]Mr. Ci'RTis. Yon talked to people who had been up to Chica^ro? 

Mr. Hayden. I talked to people who had been up to Chicago. 

Mr. CuKTis. They had ootten good wages? 

Mr. Hayden. That is right. 

Mr. CuRiis. Did you make any inquiry, or did you write any 
letters up here to see if there was any employment available? 

Mr. Hayden. No, sir. I didn't write none. 

Mr. Curtis. Well, would you rather stay here in Chicago? 

Mr. Hayden. Yes. I would rather stay here. I ain't done bad 
here. 

]Mr. Curtis. You can get along better here? 

Mr. Hayden. Yes. A heap better. Of course, it is a little tight 
now, because I ain't got no job. It is kind of tight. Times is kind 
of tight, anyhow. It's a whole lot better than Mississippi. 

Mr. Curtis. Going back to your farming in Mississippi, how many 
cows did you have? 

Mr. Hayden. Oh, I had two or three, or something like that, or 
four. 

Mr. Curtis. Two or three or four? 

Mr. Hayden. Yes. 

]\Ir. Curtis. You owned them? 

Mr. Hayden. Yes. I owned them. 

Mr. Curtis. You were able to get enough feed so that they \^ould 
not dry up ? 

Mr. Hayden. Yes. They would dry, but we would always stake 
our cows down there in the pasture, stake them out with a chain 
by the branches, and things. 

Mr. Curtis. You could get plenty of feed for them ? 

Mr. Hayden. Pretty good in the summertime, but in the wintertime 
they didn't get so much feed, because the feed was all frosted, and the 
frost killed everything. 

Mr. Curtis. Did the landlord permit you to put up some feed ? 

Mr. Hayden. Sometimes he did and sometimes he didn't. 

Mr. Curtis. How many chickens would he let you keep ? 

Mr. Hayden. We have had as high as 10 or 15 or 20 or 25 down there 
in the yard. 

Mr. Curtis. Is it easier to raise vegetables down there ? 

Mr. Hayden. Yes. It is very easy to raise vegetables. You can 
raise plenty of vegetables up and down them breaksides, and one thing 
and another — cabbage and one thing and another. 

Mr. Curtis. But you could not make any cash money ? 

Mr. Hayden. Oh, no, sir. Cash money was scarce. When they pay 
a man 60 cents a day from sunup to sundown, that ain't nuich nioney. 

Mr. Curtis. You could not educate your children ? 

Mr. Hayden. Xo. I couldn't go to school any. My dad would keep 
me working. I didn't have a chance to go to school. ' 

Mr. Curtis. We are glad to have had you here as a Avitness. because 
you have given us some information that is typical of a certain group 
that are involved in this problem. Thank you. 



966 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



That is all I have. Mr. Chairman. 
Mr. Hayden. I can ^o home noAv.oaivt I? 

The Chairman. Are there any other questions^ [No response.] 
You may be excused, Mr. Hayden. 

(Whereupon Mr. Hayden was excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF MARY JONES 

The Chairman. The next witness will be Mrs. Mary Jones. Con- 
gressman Parsons will examine you, Mrs. Jones. 

Mr. Parsons. Will you state your name for the record, please, Mrs. 
Jones ? 

Mrs. Jones. Mary Jones. 

Mr. Parsons. Where were you born ? 

Mrs. Jones. Right in Illinois. 

Mr. Parsons. In Chicago ? 

Mrs. Jones. In El Paso, 111. 

Mr. Parsons. How old are you ? 

Mrs. Jones. Twenty-six. 

]Mr. Parsons. Are you married ? 

Mrs. Jones. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. Your husband is living here in Chicago? 

]Mrs. Jones. Yes ; he is. 

Mr. Parsons. With you ? 

Mrs. Jones. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. How long have you lived here ? 

Mrs. Jones. I have lived here 23 years, the first 23 years of my 
life. 

Mr. Parsons. You came here when you were a girl ? 

Mvi,. Jones. I was born there, and then I came to Chicago and lived 
here for a long while. I went to school here. Then in 1937 my sister 
and I went to the Hawaiian Islands. I was a stenographer, and so 
was she. I had two brotliers out there. I was there about a year. 

Mr. Parsons. They were there? 

Mrs. Jones. Yes. 

]Mr. Parsons. That is why you girls decided to go? 

Mrs. Jc/Nes. Yes. There I found work and my sister found work 
almost innneciiately. We stayed on. and then I was married about a 
year later. My husband was working on a newspaper out there. 
He originally was from San Francisco. 

Mr. Parsons. Go ahead. 

Mrs. Jones. Perhaps I should have. If I had. my status would 
probably be better established. We were married about 3 months, 
and the" doctors discovered I had tuberculosis. They put me in a 
hospital. I was there 6 months in the first hospital, and then we 
moved to the other island, or to another island, I should say, and I was 
in that hospital for 6 months. 

Mr. Parsons. Was that the big island of Hawaii or Hilo? 
Mrs. Jones. Yes; the big island is where I was at first. First I 
was in the general hospital and I had to have my appendix out. The 
reason we left Hawaii is because it is not a very good place for tuber- 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 967 

culosis. Most of the people out there, white people ayIio have tubercu- 
losis have it develop iu tlieir bronchial tubes, and it does not respond 
to treatment, that particular type, althou<>:h mine is in my luuijs and is 
not advanced. 

]\Ir. PARf^oxs. HoAV lono- did you continue to work after you were 
married? 

Mrs. Jones. Well. I was workin<»; just part-time — for 2 months. I 
was workino- ])art of the time, and then I quit work. I was not 
feelinof well. althouo:h I was not feelinji' very sick. The third doctoi' 
was tlie one who discovered tuberculosis. The first two missed it. 

Mr. Parsons. Who paid for the operation? 

Mrs. JoxEs. I did. 

Mr. Parsons. You did? 

Mrs. Jones. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. Who paid for the hospitalization? 

Mrs. Jones. For tlie hospital? 

Mr. Parsons. Yes. 

Mv9. Jones. Yes; I }>aicl for the operation; and for the hospitaliza- 
tion, we began by paying for it, but after awhile our funds gave out 
and we were not able to continue to pay for it. So then the State took 
it over. 

Mr. Parsons. In Hawaii? 

Mrs. Jones. In Hawaii. 

Mr. Parsons. Your husband was working all of that time? 

Mrs. Jones. Yes. He was em])loyed. 

Mr. Parsons. Did your husband remain in the islands? 

Mrs. Jones. No. After my appendix was taken out, I had trouble 
with my kidney. The doctor said I had tuberculosis of the kidney and 
the only treatment for that is to remove the kidney. The doctor who 
was going to do that was not a kidney doctor. He was a general 
physician. It was out on the big island of Hawaii, and I was not 
very eager to have it done out there by a physician whom I did not 
have a great deal of confidence in. 

We were not aware of the situation in California. My husband, 
being a native of California, decided to go back. We had about $300 
saved up. He went back to California. Pie was going to get estab- 
lished back there and then I was coming on and have the kidney taken 
out by a doctor. 

Mr. Parsons. Was he able to get work in California ? 

Mrs. Jones. He never got work in California. He did get 1 month's 
work, but most of the time he was wandering up and down the coast 
in California. 

Mr. Parsons. Did you have an operation performed then in Cali- 
fornia ? 

Mrs. Jones. The kidney turned out to be negative. We decided not 
to take it out, and decided there was not tuberculosis after all. But 
riglit tlien they collai)sed the otlier lung. They found a hole in it, 
and they collapsed it. Then I had to remain in Hawaii. I was not 
able to travel, so I had to stay in Hawaii until I was al)le to travel. 

J\lr. Parsons. When did you come to California ? 

Mrs. Jones. I came to California in December 1939. My husband 
finally got enough money to bring me over, so I got to California, 
2tj0:;7(» — 40 — pt. :^ U 



gg§ INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

At that time I was a 'i)ilateial,'' as they call it. That mean- I vras 
<rettin<r pneumothorax refills in one Inng once a vreek and in tlie other 
Inng twice a week. One king had been collapsed for approximately 
a year. The other. 4 months. When they collapsed the second luno-, 
I had tnrned negative, and it cleared n]). 

When I got to California they wonld not give me air there at all. be- 
cause I was not a resident of the State. You have to be a resident of 
the State 3 years and of the city 1 year before you can get any assist- 
ance of any kind. All I could do was to go to a private doctor who 
wanted $25 a month plus the cost of X-rays. I did not happen to have 
it. That was how we came to leave California, because I could not 
afford treatment, and I really could not be without it. 

Mv. Parsons. To what place did you go from California? 

]\Irs. Jones. I went down to Peoria, 111. I had lived in Peoria. 111., 
and it just happened that I had some things with me — I had my silver- 
ware and the radio, my ring, and a few things. We disposed of those 
and took the bus back to Peoria. 

My. Parsons. Why did you go to Peoria ? 

Mrs. Jones. Well. I thought maybe my husband could get work at 
the Caterpillar Tractor Co. Then, too.' I knew I niight be able to 
get air in Peoria, or in Illinois, because of my residence here. My 
mother had died in Peoria, and I thought I had enough contacts to 
get air. 

Anyhow there was not very much down in Peoria. There is not 
much' unless 3'ou happen to be mechanical. We stayed down there. 
He managed to sell some photographic coupons until hib. unemploy- 
ment compensation got started. Then we came up to Chicago. 

Mr. Parsons. Did you draw unemployment compensation t 

]Mrs. Jones. We did. 

Mr. Parsons. From his work in Hawaii? 

Mrs. Jones. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. How nnich did be obtain on that ? 

:\lrs. Jones. $166. 

Mv. P.ARSONS. Over a period of 16 weeks? 

Mrs. Jones. Fourteen. 

INIr. Parsons. Fourteen weeks? 

Mrs. Jones. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. When did you get into Chicago ? 

Mvs. Jones. I think it must have been about January that we got 
to Chicago. We have been here ever since. 

Mr. P.ARSONS. Has he worked since that time ( 

Mrs. Jones. He has not really found anything in Chicago. 

Mr. Parsons. Of course, you are not able to work ? 

Mrs. Jones. No; I am not. 

Mr. Parsons. Have you a]3plied for relief here? 

Mrs. Jones. We are not eligible. 

Mr. Parsons. AVhy not ? 

Mrs. J(»NEs. Well, we were down at the relief station, down at 
W. P. A. You have to be here 3 years before you are eligible for relief. 

Mr. Parsons. You were away for almost 3 3-ears? 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION QgQ 

Mrs. Jokes. Yes. But tlien. of course. I take niv liu-ljand's resi- 
dence. 

Mr. Pars(^ns. Has any a<iX'ncv helped you. or is any agency helping 
you now ? 

Mrs. Jones. We are getting some assistance from the Salvation 
Army. 

Mr. Parso>;s. How much asistance is that? 

Mrs. Jones. $21.35 every 15 days. 

Mr. Parsons. Are you able to get any treatment for your condi- 
tion ? 

Mrs. Jones. Yes. That is fortunate : I am. 

Mr. Parsons. Is that furnished by the Salvation Army? 

Mrs. Jones. No. You see, ni Illinois, aii' is free. Anyone who has 
anything wrong with their lungs can get air free. 

Mr. Parsons. Do 3'ou think you are improving ? 

Mrs. Jones. The doctors tell me I am. 

Mr. Parsons. You look as though you are. You look as though 
you could be improving. 

Mrs. Jones. I am im])roving, but you camiot say definitely whether 
you are going to recover or whether you are not. It is a question of 
3 or 4 years. 

Mr. Parsons. How much education did you have ? 

Mrs. Jones. Two years of college. 

Mr. Parsons. Two years of college? 

Mrs. Jones. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. You are a high-school graduate, and have had 2 
years of college ? 

Mrs. Jones. Yes; Northwestern. 

Mr. Parsons. Northwestern ? 

Mrs. Jones. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. I assume you probably took a business course? 

Mrs. JoNFs. Well, no. 

Mr. Parsons. In high school or in college? 

INIrs. Jones. No. I took a business course at a business school. 

Mr. Parsons. I see. 

Mrs. Jones. That is where I learned shorthand and typing. 

Mr. Parsons. What are the plans of you and your husband now? 

Mrs. Jones. Well, he is taking that national-defense ])rogram now. 
He is now taking woodworking and cabinetmaking. We are hoping 
that out of that will come something. I do think work opportunities 
are picking up. 

INfr. Parsons. He is going to school now ? 

Mrs. Jones. He is going to night school 4 nights a week. 

jNTr. Parsons. Is he trying to find a joli for the daytime? 

Mrs. Jones. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. Has he ever reported to the State employment office? 

Mrs. Jones. Yes, indeed. 

Mr. Parsons. Has he ti-ied through any ])i-ivate employment office 
to obtain employment ? 

Mrs. Jones. He has liis name in at all of them. 



970 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. Pardons. He has been able to find nothinp- here in the months 
you have been here ? 

Mrs. Jones. Xo; he has not foiuid anythin<>-. 

Mr. Parsons. I tliink that is all. Are there any other questions? 

Mr. Si'ARKMAN. I have a question. 

Mr. Parsons Con<2:ressnian Sparkman. 

Mr. Spalkmax. What is the nature of your husbanfFs work? 

]Mrs. Jones. He has been selling- advertising. 

Mr. Sparkman. In the advertising department ? 

Mrs. Jones. Yes. 

]Mr. Sparkman. Did he have anv special training in that line? 

Mrs. Jones. Xo. It was just — Hawaii is diffei-ent. It is much more, 
simj)le than it is here ; it is not complicated. 

Mr. Sparkman. How old is he? 

Mrs, Jones. Twenty-five. 

lack of training as cause or UXEaiPLOTMENT 

Mr. Sparkman. Does he have any special training? 

Mrs. Jones. He lacks special training in every line. That is his 
difficulty. 

Mr. Sparkman. Is he a high-school graduate ? 

iVIrs. Jones. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. He is now going to night school in order to get 
special training^ 

Mrs. Jones. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. That is all. 

Mr. Parsons. Are there any other questions? 

Mr. Curtis. Do I understand that neither of your parents are living? 

Mrs. Jones. That is right. 

Mr. Curtis. Their last home residence was at what place in Illinois? 

Mrs. Jones. Peoria. My husband's relatives, of course, were native 
Californians. His mother and father both lived there and his grand- 
parents on both sides. 

Mr. Curtis. They took the view that you were a Californian because 
that was your husband's residence ? 

Mrs. Jones. Xo; in California they took the view that we were not 
anything at all. They took the view we were Hawaiians. They were 
going to send us back to Hawaii, or they were talking about it. I do 
not think there is any danger they would give us the trip. They sent 
us down to the Bureau of Immigration, tjut they did not send us to 
Hawaii. 

Mr. Curtis. That is all, 

Mr. Osmers. Would you say that the fact your husband did not 
have any specific training along any line had contributed a great 
•deal to your difficulties? 

Mrs. Jones. I think that is the main thing. I think right now 
that if he had had some specific training — I think if he had 6 weeks' 
training, he would have a job. 

Mr. Osmers. You feel there are employment opportunities here? 

Mrs. Jones. For anyone who is capable of doing something. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 971 

Mr. OsMERs. But the difficulty in your case is that your husbaiul 
is not trained {' 

Mrs. Jones. I had the same experience myself before starting out. 
I had 2 years of college, and a good education. I was in the upper 
bracket of my class, but I was not able to do shorthand and typing. 

1 had the bununest jobs you could ever get, places like Montgomery 
Ward, where you get up at 5 o'clock in the morning. Then I learned 
shorthand in t> weeks, and I was always able to get a decent job. 

Mr. OsMEKS. Because you were definitely trained^ 
^Irs. Jones. Yes. I think if my husband were able to do sheet- 
metal work, which he could learn in 6 weeks, he could get a job. 

Mr. OsMERs. In other words, your 4 years of high school and your 

2 years at Xorthwestern did not mean anything wiien you went out 
to get a job and earn your living? 

INIrs. Jones. I think you could have a master's degree, and it would 
not mean a thing. 

Mr. OsMEKS. The reason I stress that point is that I have found, 
as I have gone around the country, there is something wrong with 
our educational system. The people we are putting out of our high 
schools and colleges are not equipped to go out and make a living. 

Mrs. Jones. I feel that way definitely. 

INIr. OsMEKs. You agree with that ? 

Mrs. Jones. Yes. If they would just teach them something — 
anything. 

Mr. OsMERS. Thank you very much. 

Mr. Sparkman. One more question. What became of your sister? 
Is she still in Hawaii? 

Mrs. Jones. She is still in Hawaii, 

Mr. Sparkman. She is getting along all right? 

Mrs. Jones. She is well. 

Mr. Sparkman. Not married? 

Mrs. Jones. No. She is not married. 

Mr. Sparkman. She is still doing stenographic work? 

Mrs. Jones. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. Your case is similar to many others that we have 
encountered in the course of these hearings. Thank you very much. 

(W^hereupon Mrs. Mary Jones was excused.) 

Mr. Parsons. The next witness will be Mr. Mendenhall. 

TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR MENDENHALL 

Mr. Parsons. Congi'essman Sparkman will interrogate you, Mr, 
Mendenhall. 

Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Mendenhall. will you give your full name to 
the reporter, for the benefit of the record? 

Mr. ^Mendenhall. xVrthur Mendenhall. 

Mr. Sparkman. Where do you live: here? 

Mr. Mendenhall. At 2944 South Michigan. 

Mr. Sparkman. Is that a jirivate home, or what is it ? 

Mr. Mendenhall. It is a C. Y. O. hotel. 



972 INTEKSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. Spakkman. A Catholic Youth Organization hotel? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Yes. ■ 

Mr. Spai;kman. Where were you born? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Eldorado. Kans. 

Mr. Sparkman. What is your age? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Twenty, 

Mr. Spakkman. Have you any brothers and sisters? 

Mr. Mendenhall. I have two brothers and a sister. 

Mr. Spakkman. Where are they? 

Mr. Mendenhall. My youngest brother and sister are in Lyons, 
Kans. 

Mr, Spakkman. Ls that where your mother lives? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Yes, 

Mr. Spakkman. Is your father living? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Yes. 

Mr. Spakkman. Your father and mother live at Lyons? 

Mr. Mendenhall. I do not know where my father is. 

Mr. Spakkman. The family is separated? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Yes. 

Mr. Spakkman. Your youngest brother and sister live with your 
mother at Lyons, Kans. ? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Yes, 

Mr. Spakkman. Where is your other brother? 

]SIr. Mendenhall. He is in Seattle, Wash. 

Mr. Spakkman. How old is he? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Eighteen, 

Mr. Spakkman. What education did you have? 

Mr. Mendenhall. A high-school education. 

Mr. Spakkman. Did you finish high school? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Yes. 

Mr. Spakkman, Where? 

Mr, Mendenhall. In 1939, at Alden, Kans. 

Mr. Spakkman. Where did you go after you finished high school? 

Mr. Mendenhall. To Estes Park, Colo. 

Mr. Spakkman. What was the occasion for your going out there? 

Mr, Mendenhall. I got a job for the summer out there. 

Mr. Spakkman. At a Y. M. C. A. camp, or something like that? 

Mr, Mendenhall. Yes. 

Mr. Spakkman. How did you happen to get that job? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Through a friend of mine at the University in 
Wichita, Kans. 

Mv. Spakkman. What hai)pened to you after that? 

Mr. INIendenhall. I went back to Kansas from Colorado. I worked 
in Wichita for about 2 months in a service station. 

Mr. Spakkman. Had you had any plans to go to college? 

]Mr. Mendenhall. Yes, sir, 

Mr. Spakkman. You did not get to realize that ambition? 

Mr. Mendenhall. No: I did not. 

]Mr. Spakkman. That is, you have not so far? 

]\fr. Mendenhall. No, 

Mr. Spakkman. Well, what did you do after you left the service 
station ? 



INTERSTATE :MIGRATI0X 973 

Mr. Mendenhall. I went back to Lyons, Kans.. which is near 
Alden, the phice where I finished high school. 

Mr. Sparkman. How long did you stay there? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Almost 6 months. 

Mr. Sparkman. Did you have work there? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Yes; I ran a beer tavern. 

Mr. Sparkman. That brought you up to the first part of this 
year? 

Mr. ]\Iendenhall. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Then where did you go? 

Mr. Mendenhall. To some relatives of mine at Newport, Ind. 

Mr. Sparkman. How long did you stay there ? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Until about 4 months ago. 

Mr. Sparkman. Did you come from there here ? 

Mr. ^Iendenhall. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Did you have work there? 

Mr. Mendenhall. No, sir. 

Mr. Sparkman. Have you had any work in Chicago? 

xMr. Mendenhall. I have been working at the C. Y. O. prac- 
ticallv ever since I have been here, but day before yesterday I was 
laid off. 

Mr. Sparkman. Is that the Catholic Youth Organization? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. You have not just been staying there; you have 
been working there? 

Mr. INIendenhall. I was employed there. 

Mr. Spark^ian. You were laid off day before yesterday? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Do you have anything in mind now? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Well, I have a couple of leads. 

Mr. Sparkman. You have what? 

Mr. Mendenhall. I have a couple of leads for jobs, but I don't 
know. 

Mr. Sparkman. You have been looking for work? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Did you have any special training, Arthur? 

Mr. Mendenhall. As a musician. 

Mr. Sparkman. You are a musician? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. What instrument do you play? 

Mr. Mendenhall. I play the piano. I also sing. 

Mr. Sparkman. You also sing? 

JNIr. Mendenhall. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. What have you been doing at the C. Y. O.? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Head waiter in the kitchen. 

Mr. Sparkman. Have you ever been on relief, or have you ever 
applied for relief? 

Mr. ^Mendenhall. No, sir. 

Mr. Sparkman. So far you have been able to knock around and 
take care of yourself? 

Mr. ISIendenhall. Yes. 



974 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

My. Sparkman, Does your mother need any help, or is she able 
to support herself, she and the younger children ? 

Mr. Mendenhall. She makes $6 a week in the laundry. 

Mr. Sparkman. I suppose your youngest brother and sister are 
still in school? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. They do not work? 

Mr. Mendenhall. No. 

Mr. Sparkman. Is your other brother working? 

Mr. Mendenhall. The last time I heard from him he was work- 
ino; in a bakery. 

Mr. Sparkman. How long ago was that ? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Nearly a month ago. 

Mr, Sparkman. While you were working at the C. Y. O., did you 
send money home? 

yiv. Mendenhall. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. What did you make there ? 

Mr. Mendenhall. $5 a week. 

Mr. Sparkman. And your board? 

Mr. ^Mendenhall. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. They kept j^ou there? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Out of that, you had your own spending money, 
and you sent money home to help your mother and younger brother 
and sister? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. I believe that is all. 

Mr. OsMERS. Did you learn anything in school, in high school, 
that has helped you since you have been out tr^'ing to earn your 
own living? 

Mr. Mendenhall. No. 

Mr. OsMERs. I suppose your musical education was privately paid 
for, your piano work? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Yes. 

Mr. Osmers. By the family? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Yes. 

Mr. Osmers. That was not anj'thing you got from school ? 

Mr. Mendenhall. No. 

^Ir. Osmers. How old are you now? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Twenty. 

Mr. Osmers. Is there any agency you know of in the city of Chi- 
cago, either Federal or State or local, that would make available to 
you training along a certain line that might assist you to get a 
regular job? 

Mr. Mendenhall. I do not know of an^- such agency, 

]Mr. Osmers. I just wondered if you knew of any. 

Mr. ^Mendenhall. No. 

]Mr. Osmers. I know that the National Youth Administration has 
a mechanic trainins; jirogram, for one thing. I wondered whetlier 
you might be eligible for that. 

]Mr. JMendenhall. I really do not know whether I am or not. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 975 

Mr. OsMERS. That is all. 

Mr. Curtis. In what part of Kansas is Lyons? 

Mr. Mendenhall. The middle- western part. 

Mr. Curtis. Near what other town, what other larger place? 

Mr. Mexdenhall. About 25 miles from Hutchinson. 

Mr. Curtis. How did it happen you lost your job over at the 

c. y. o.? 

Mr. Mexdenhall. They just did not need me any longer, that is 
all. I was extra, you might say. They do not have any one where I 
used to be. 

Mr. Curtis. You feel your chances of taking care of yourself are 
better going about the country this way. than remaining right in 
Lyons '. 

Mr. MExnExiiALL. I feel so. I didn't have a chance in Lyons. 

Mr. Curtis. How big a town is it ? 

Mr. Mexdexhall. It is about, I would say, 10,000. 

Mr. Curtis. That is all. 

Mr. Sparkmax. I want to ask another question or two. When you 
were planning to go to college, what were you going to take? 

Mr. Mexdexhale. A musical education, to further myself 
musically. 

Mr. Sparkmax. Have vou given any thought to enrollment in a 
C. C, C. camp ? 

Mr. Mexdexhall,. No. 

]\Ir. Sparkmax. I believe under that plan they will give you some 
spending money and send home as much as $25 a month for the support 
of your dependents. Have you ever thought about applying for that ? 

Mr. Mexdexhall. I did think about it ; yes. I tried to get in while 
I was in Indiana. I tried twice, but both times something slipped up. 
I failed. 

Mr. Sparkmax. I believe there has been some considerable enroll- 
ment in the last few months. 

Mr. ]Mexdexhall. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkmax. It might be a little easier to get in now. 

Mr. Mex^dexhall. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkmax. You are interested in music. Have you ever 
thought of getting into the Army and into some part of the band? 

]\Ir. Mexdexhall. I have thought of it, but I never did seriously 
consider joining the xVrmy, or enlisting in the Army, because I don't 
like that kind of life. 

Mr. Sparkmax". Have you ever talked with the N. Y. A., the 
National Youth Administration? 

Mr. Mexdexhall. No; I have not. 

Mr. Sparkmax. About the possibilities of that? 

Mr. Mexdexhall. No. I have not talked with them. 

Mr. Sparkmax. Do you have any mechanical turn at all ? 

Mr. Mexdexhall. "^^'ell, my father is a mechanic, and I helped 
him. I helped him for about 3 years and a half after school and at 
different times like that. I have a rather mechanical turn. 

Mr. Sparkmax. I noticed that only recently the navy yard in Wash- 
ington, and I presume it is true in navy yards in other parts of tlie 



976 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

country, are takiiio- in quite a number of young men as apprentices, 
to teach them the trades. I believe the N. Y. A. is phmning to teach 
trades to young men. It seems to me it might be well for you to think 
about those things and investigate some of them. You might find 
some real possibilities there. The State headquarters of the N. Y. A. 
is in the Merchandise INIart here in Chicago. It might be well for you 
to go up and make inquiry. They may be able to help you. 

Mr. Mendenhall. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkmax. How long have you been in Chicago? 

My. jNIexdenhall. About 4 months. 

Mr. Sparkmax. You came from Indiana here? 

]Mr. Mendenhall. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. How long since you left Lyons, Kans. ? 

Mr. Mendenhall. It has been nearly a year now. 

]\Ir. Sparkman. Is tliat the first time you had ever been away 
from liome? 

Mr. INIendenhall. Yes: for any length of time like that. 

Mr. Sparkman. The folks are still back in Kansas? 

Mr. Mendenhall. My father — I don't know Avhere he is. He is 
someAvhere in Illinois, but I don't know just where. 

Mr, Sparkman. Is he migrating too? 

Mr, ^Mendenhall. No. He works in the oil fields. 

Mr. Sparkman. In the oil fields? 

Mr. Mendenhall. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. He is probably down in southern Illinois. 

Mr. Mendenhall. That is what I imagine. 

Mr. OsMERS. Is he contributing to the support of the family? 

Mr. Mendenhall. I believe he is, when he can. He is in poor 
health. He was gassed in the war. He does not have any health left. 
He works when he can. 

Mr, Osmers, Does he receive an}^ veteran's compensation for that? 

Mr. Mendenhall. He did, up until 12 years ago; 12 years ago 
the}' quit sending compensation. He didn't need it at the time, though. 
They stopped sending it. 

Mr. Parsons. He probably received that under the disability-allow- 
ance clause. It probably was not service connected. 

Mr. Osmers. If would have to be service connected if he were gassed. 

Mr, Parsons. That is probably true. Are there any other ques- 
tions? [No response.] You are excused, Mr. Mendenhall. Thank 
you very much. 

(Whereupon Mr. Mendenhall was excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF BEN DEMING, STATE SUPERVISOR, FIELD OFFICE 
OPERATIONS, UNEMPLOYMENT COMPENSATION DIVISION. IN- 
DIANAPOLIS, IND. 

Mr. Parsons. JNIr, Deming. Congressman Osmei's will interrogate 
you, Mr, Deming. 

Mr. Osmers, Mr, Deming, I will ask you to give your full name and 
address and j-our occupation, for the record. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 977 

Mr. Deming. Ben Deniino;. State supervisor for field office opera- 
tions. Indiana Unemployment Compensation Division. 
(Statement submittedand made part of the record.) 

STATI-MENT CoNtEK.MXG CEKTAI.N ASPiXTS OF THE MlGKATORY Aollit ULTLTRAL LABOR 

PiiOP.LKM IX Indiana 

(By Ben Deming, State snpervisoi-, field office operations. Unemiiloyment Com- 
pens^ation Division. Indianapolis, Ind.) 

The limitations of this report relative to migratory agricultural labor in 
Indiana should be pointed out in the beginning. It is based upon the experience 
of the public employment service during the last 7 years. The limitations of 
this experience are' indicated by the fact that during 1939 local employment 
offices lef erred and placed only 2,334 persons in agricultural employment as 
compared with a lotal of 83,083 other persons who were referred and placed in 
comnic'rcial, industrial, and service occupations with private employers. An 
inventory of local olHce application tiles taken April 1 this year shows that there 
were registered approximately 6,000 persons wh(jse last regular job had been in 
agriculture as compared to the total of some l."JO,0:JO other persons whose last 
regular job was in fields other than agriculture. 

There are several reasons why the employment service has not played a more 
active part in tills field : 

1. Much of the farm produce in Indiana, such as corn and hogs, does not 
create a demand for large numbers of workers for planting, harvesting or tend- 
ing, as in the case of large agricultural crops in Western States, such as cotton 
in Texas. This is due partially to the increased use of farm machinery in recent 
years which has caused some displacement of labor and to the small size of 
individual farms in Indiana compared to Western States. In the case of most 
farm products, it is an exceptional farm in Indiana which normally requires the 
services of more than one or two farm hands. These are usually employed on 
a year-around basis, and are normally recruited in the vicinity of the farm. 
Wages average about $20 a month with board and room, although in the more 
pro.sperous farm areas wages sometimes reach .$30 to .$3.5 a month. 

2. The local employment offices in Indiana are established in the 25 largest 
cities and are not especially located strategically insofar as farm labor is 
concerned. 

3. In the case of certain special crops, notably tomatoes, the conditions of em- 
ployment in many cases are such that the employment service has not felt justi- 
fied in assuming responsibility for the referral of the workers. 

Under the.se circumstances, the employment service is not in as good a position 
as some other agencies in Indiana to report factual data concerning farm labor, 
with one exception, to which this report will be largely restricted; that exception 
has to do with the tomato crop. The harvesting and canning of this crop, how- 
ever, probably involves the most .serious problem in Indiana so far as the inter- 
state migration of destitute citizens is concerned. 

TOMATO CROP IN INDIANA ^ 

There are normally under cultivation in Indiana each year approximately 
100.000 acres in tomatoes. The average yield is about 5 tons of tomatoes per 
acre. Their value is estimated at $10 per ton. which means that the total value 
of this crop in Indiana in a normal year is approximately $"),000,{i00. 

There are four primary classes of people who have a direct financial interest 
in this crop. They are the growers, the canners, the laborers employed by both 
the growers and the canners, and those manufacturers who supply the canners 
with tin cans. The growers are largely financed by the canners, who in turn are 
frequently largely financed by the tin-can manufacturers. 

This is a highly competitive business and entails many hazards which create 
serious financial risks. For example: A canner's profit depends upon his ability 



1 Tlie data which follows is based upon a survoy made by the employment service in 
1939, in -which State and local officer personnel contacted 22 leading canners, several hun- 
dred gi-owers, numerous local putilic officials, Purdue University, and the Indiana State 
Canners' Association. 



gyg intf:rstate migration 

to contract acreage, iiidnstrionsiu'ss and honesty of his growers, weather t'ondi- 
tions, insects and phuit disease, availability of lalioi-. the efficiency of his plant 
compared with his competitor's, and finally the market price of his product. 

A major cost for both the grower and canner is labor and the strenuous compe- 
tition gives both of them a powerful incentive to l<eep the cost of labor to a 
minimum. Some of the canneries are now covered by the Federal wage-and-hour 
law, which automatically establishes a minimum price for labor. No such a 
minimum exists, however, for the tomato pickers employed by the growers, and 
it is here that the most serious problems arise relative to labor migration, wages, 
hours, and living conditions. In order to appreciate the problems, it is necessary 
that certain facts concerning the nature of this work be understood. 

HARVESTING TOMATOES 

The harvesting of tomatoes is done by hand and requires the services of sever.nl 
thousand tomato pickers in the early part of August until about October 1. Tomato 
picking is undoubtedly extremely arduous physical labor, requiring constant 
stooping and the carrying of heavy crates under a boiling hot sun. The pickers 
are required to work from daybreak until dark in vines that are, in the early 
morning, wet with dew and possibly rain that has fallen during the night. 

The tomatoes are graded according to quality, and the workers are paid a 
piece rate which varies according to the grade picked. The grades are as follows : 

1. U. S. Gi-ade No. 1 : This consists of tomatoes which are firm, ripe, well colored, 
well formed, free from molds and decay, and free from damage caused by growth 
cracks, worm holes, catfaces, sunscalds, freezing, and other injury. 

2. U. S. Grade No. 2 : This grade consists of tomatoes which do not meet the 
requirements of the U. S. Grade No. 1 but are ripe and fairly well colored and free 
from serious damage from any cause. 

3. Culls : These are tomatoes which do not meet the requirements of the fore- 
going grades. 

On the average, 68 percent of the crop will be U. S. Grade No. 1 and will remain 
that grade for about 6V2 days. Tomatoes which are wet from rain or dew appear 
redder than when dry and are, consequently, misleading as to grade. The bruising 
or breaking of tomatoes from careless picking, overfilling the baskets, or im- 
proper loading of tomatoes in trucks will likewise affect the grading. Since the 
assignment of grade is affected by these factors and since it is a subjective rating 
in the end. the grading process offers an opportunity for disputes with the pickers. 

Wages and living comJifions. — Tomato pickers are normally paid a piero rate 
which varies from 2V-2 to 6 cents per basket. The basket holds, theoretically, a 
slightly less quantity than a bushel, but in actual practice no standard basliet 
is used by growers. They may use wooden boxes, bushel baskets, or hampers of 
any kind. The range in piece rate varies between growers and also varies with the 
grade of tomatoes picked. The amount of tomatoes that a v,'orker can pick varies 
not only with his physical ability and energy, including his judgment of quality 
or grade, but also with the condition of the field. Such factors as the fertility of 
the field, the time that has elapsed since it was ])reviously picked, condition of the 
vines, weather conditions, distance from the field to the loading platform, etc.. have 
a direct bearing on his earnings. The statements of growers and workers con- 
tacted vary widely, l>ut a reasonable estimate seems to be that an experienced, 
pnergetic, able-bodied male worker would average approximately $1.50 to $2 50 
in a 12- to 14-hour day, provided the condition of the field was favorable. Women 
and children would normally earn a proportionately less amount. 

It is reported that the growers, in some instances, do not have the money to 
pay the pickers until the crop is completely harvested and they are paid by the 
canners, although they sometimes arrange to get tlie necessary money advanced 
by the canners. Some growers follow the practice of holding back one-half cent 
on the basket and then paying the worker in full if he stays the entire tomato- 
picking season. By and large, it can be said that the method of wage payment 
is inconvenient and unsatisfactory so far as the worker is concerned. 

Usually the tomato acreage is located some distance from rown so it is not 
convenient for the workers to commute daily. As a result, many growers attempt 
to provide living quarters by making available barns or other outlying buildings 
or by merely permitting the workers to camp out in the open on their land. In 
some communities public parks or land is made available to the workers for camp 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 979 

sites. As a result, living conditions for these workers are usually very unsatis- 
factory from the standpoint of sanitation and public health. 

The' eating facilities are also unsatisfactory because of the withholding of 
wages and the normally poverty-stricken condition of these people. They attempt 
to spend only the barest minimum amount of cash for groceries. On the basis 
of housing and food standards, it can be said that a vast majority of the workers 
exist under definitely substandard conditions. 

Because of these substandard working conditions and wages, the majority of 
local residents refuse to accept this type of employment. For this reason, in the 
localities that have large acreage, it is usually impossible to secure sufficient labor 
even though hundreds of local people may be totally unemployed or receiving 
public funds for their subsistence. As a result, large numbers of workers either 
come into Indiana on their own initiative or are imported each year from sur- 
rounding States. The largest group comes from southern Kentucky, and a lesser 
number normally comes principally from Tennessee. Missouri. Illinois, and Ohio. 
A few hundred Mexicans normally come into this State each year, both for the 
tomato picking and for the sugar-beet harvesting, which takes place in the 
northeastern part of the State. Many of these migrants travel in family groups 
and, in such cases, wives and children normally seek employment along with the 
head of the family. This is particularly characteristic of the Mexic;in labor and 
is frequently true of the people from Kentucky. In addition to tinding employ- 
ment as tomato pickers, many of these persons attempt to find other agricultural 
employment or to work in canning factories. When the season is over, many of 
them return to their original homes, but a significant residue usually remains. 

There are no relialile statistics available in regard to this situation, but a 
report made by the State planning board for Johnson County in 1935 probably 
furnishes a typical example. This report notes that whereas Johnson County is 
relatively a prosperous farming area, the relief population averages about 10 
percent.' The report claims that this condition is due to the canning industry 
and truck-crop raising, including tomatoes. It estimates that the influx of 
migrat(try labor each year from Kentucky alone is approximately 1.000, and that 
a certain number of these people remain and are normally unemployed through- 
out the rest of the year. This influx of labor from Kentucky takes place regu- 
larly, even though there are easily enough unemployed people in Indianapolis to 
fill all these jobs, and Indianapolis is only 25 miles away. The report states that 
at least one employer in Johnson County advertises each year in Kentucky news- 
papers, which has been directly responsible for scores of persons from that State 
coming to Johnson County. The following statements are quoted directly from 
this report : 

"Vegetable canning, the principal industry, is a seasonal occupation and there- 
fore has created serious economic and social problems attendant upon seasonal 
employment. Migration from Kentucky is responsible for a large part of the 
relief population. Housing among relief clients, especially those originating in 
Kentucky, is extremely bad and violates minimum standards of living, legal and 
otherwise, although rural housing is generally above the average for the State. 

'•Pay rolls are loaded with transient Kentuckians, while many employable 
citizens of Indiana are on i^lief rolls because of lack of employment. 

The public employment service in Indiana receives numerous requests each 
year for tomato pickers and, because of the unsatisfactory circumstances sur- 
rounding this type of employment, has found it necessary to formulate a special 
referral policy so far as local offices are concerned. This policy is (Hitlined below, 
and I believe it represents reasonable minimum standards : 

1. Orders will not be filled unless: («) Prevailing rate is offere<l : (b) average 
qualified workers can earn at least 30 cents per hour; (c) wages are paid in full 
and at least semi-monthly (as required by State law for most employment) ; 

(d) working conditions and housing, if required, meet reasonable standards; 

(e) transportation is furnished, or extra compensation is paid to cover cost of 
transportation on jobs requiring same. 

2. Orders will not be cleared outside the locality unless : ( « » All conditions 
set out under point 1 are satisfied; {h) no local qualified labor is available; 
(c) transportation is furnished; (d) a minimum daily earning is guaranteed. 

3. Information regarding jobs not complying with the above-mentioned minimum 
standards will not be given to applicants, newspapers, or transient workers. 



980 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

The full force of eniploymeut-service facilities will be exercised to fill the jobs 
nieetiiifj the sp(>cifications set out in this policy. 

The application of this policy lias made it necessary for local offices to reject 
practically all orders receiA-ed for tomato pickers. 

Possible remedies. — The foregoing description indicates certain unfortunate 
labor conditions that prevail in the harvesting of tomatoes in Indiana. Modern 
labor trends furnish a basis for the belief that eventually some remedy will be 
found to alleviate this undesirable situation. 

The history of employer-labor relationships and the experience of other States 
where similar conditions have prevailed indicate that corrective action might be 
taken along one or more of the following lines : 

1. ACTION ON THE PAKT OF THE CANNEKS' ASSOCIATION 

Because of the close financial relationships that exist between the canners and 
growers, it would be possible for the former, through their association, to exert 
considerable influence on working conditions relative to tomato picking. The 
association faces a serious problem, however, in taking effective action along this 
line, since any increase in the labor costs of its members might place them at a 
serious disadvantage with their out-of-State competitors. 

2. ACTION ON THE PART OF THK WORKEES THEMSELVES 

Experience in other States indicates that an effort might be made to organize 
the workers for the purpose of securing better wages and more favorable work- 
ing conditions through collective action. In other parts of the country such 
efforts have been strenuously resisted by the growers and frequently labor dis- 
turbances, and even civil disorder, have resultetl. The number of migratory 
workers and the temporary nature of the work has likewise handicapped the work 
of labor organizers. Developments in other parts of the country, however, 
indicate the possibility of such a movement. 

3. ACTION ON THE PAKT OF THE STATE GOVERNMENT 

Some States have attempted to c<»rrect similar situations through legislation 
or executive decree. This has sometimes taken the form of erecting State barriers 
which prevented the entraii,ce of jnigrants unable to establish their financial 
lesponsibility. Conversely, through emigi'ant labor laws, some States have regu- 
lated the recruitment of labor by out-of-State contractors. State minimum-wage 
laws have likewise attempted to protect certain classes of workers by establishing 
minimum-wage rates. In the case at hand, it might well be argued that any 
legislation which required the payment of higher wages than those paid iu 
adjoining States would place Indiana canners at a serious competitive dis- 
advantage. 

4. ACTION ON THE PART OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT 

The Federal wage-and-hour law illustrates a type of Federal action designed to 
protect workers by establishing certain provisions in legard to wages and hours. 
This legislation applies to a portion of the canning industry and eliminates the 
competitive advantage that accrues from individual State legislation. While 
certain administrative difficulties are appai-ent, some persons have urged that the 
provisions of the law be extended to agricultural workers. 

There are doubtless other measures that could be applied to this situation. 
The experience in other States both as regards agricultural workers and those 
whose employment has created similar labor problems appears to indicate, how- 
ever, that a solution of the problem in Indiana might be expected to follow one 
of the lines described above. 

TESTIMONY OF BEN DEMING— Resumed 

Mr. OsMERS. ]Mr. Deming, you have submitted a statement which 
we have put into the record, and we are going to base our questions 
somewhat on that. Will you tell the committee something in refer- 
ence to the tomato crop in Indiana? 

Mr. Dp:ming. That is one of our problems there in Indiana, Mr. 
Congressman. Through the southeast and on up through the east 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 981 

central and northeastern sections of Indiana, a rather hirge tomato 
crop is oi-own every year. 

]Mr. OsMERS. How many acres of tomatoes are there '. 

Mr. Deming. I am sorry. I cannot remember the exact figure 
offhand. 

Mr. OsMERS. I have a copy of your statement here. 

Mr. Deming. Yes. 

Mr. Os.MERS. I believe you show in your statement there are 100,000 
acres. 

Mr. Deming. Yes. There are normally some 100,000 acres planted 
in tomatoes, with a value of about $5,000,000, or something like that. 

FINANCIAL STRrCTURE OF TOMATO PRODUCTION IN INDIANA 

^Ir. OsMERs. Would you tell us just what groups are interested in 
the production of tomatoes in Indiana {^ 

Mr. Deming. The actual growers themselves, the canners, and the 
sellers of tomato cans; and, of course, also a certain group of labor- 
ing people who earn their livelihood in raising tlie crop, harvesting 
it, and so forth. 

Mr. OsMFRS. What is the financial structure of the tomato busi- 
ness in Indiana I 

^Ir. Deming. The growers are pretty largely financed by the can- 
ners. Tlie canners are in turn to quite an extent financed by the 
manufacturers of tin cans. 

Mr. OsMFRs. I just wanted to get that straight. 

Mr. Deming. Yes. 

Mr. OsMERs. The grower — by "the grower." do you mean the 
farmer who owns the land? 

Mr. Deming. Yes. 

Mr. OsMERS. He is financed by the man who places the tomatoes in 
the cans { 

]Mr. Deming. Yes. 

]Mi-. OsMERS. The man who does the canning operation is financed 
by the man who makes the cans? 

Mr. Deming. Very frequently. 

Mr. OsMERS. I see. 

]\Ir. Deming. Not entirely, but in many cases; yes. 

TOMATO-PICKING SEASON 

^Ir. OsMERS. Tomatoes are a highly perishable crop, as we all 
know. Because they are so' perishable, does that bring any special 
prol:)lems into the production of tomatoes? 

^Ir. Deming. It does. It makes it a very hazardous business in 
that the yield per acre, and so forth, varies tremendously from year 
to year, due to weather conditions, due to the ability and skill of 
the grower himself, how well he takes care of his crop, and due also 
to the availabilitv of labor at the time the tomatoes sliould be ]:)icked 
and th.e skill of the workers in picking them proj^erlv. 

Finally, it depends upon their ability to sell them to the canners, 
which again depends u])on market conditions which vary from year 



982 IXTERSTATK MIGRATION 

to year, as to tlie ])rice of the crop, which determines back down the 
line what the canner gets, and, in turn, the grower. 

jMr. OsMERs. What is the length of the tomato-picking period '. 

Mr. Deming. It starts about the first part of August, or the latter 
])art of July and runs through to about the 1st of October. 

LABOR SOURCE 

Mr. OsMERS. In round numbers, how man}' people are engaged in 
picking tomatoes I 

Mr. Deming. That I do not know. There have been, here and 
there, some estimates made. The State planning board at one time 
made an estimate in terms of one of the counties which happened to 
be one of the smaller ones. The}- estimated some two or three thou- 
sand there. 

Mr. OsMERs. Two or three thousand for that one county? 

Mr. Deming. Yes. 

Mr. Osmers. That would not give us a total figure for the State? 

Mr. Deming. No, 

Mr. Osmers. AVhere does the labor come from? You say it is sort 
of peak-load labor that comes in to pick tomatoes? 

Mr. Deming. A large share of it comes in from outside of the State. 
The}' do not use local labor entirely. Probably at least 50 percent 
of it comes in from outside of the State. 

DISPOSIT ox OF LAHOR BETAVEEX SEASiNS 

Mr. Osmers. Where does the labor go after the season is over? 

Mr. Deming. Some of them return to their homes; part of them. 

INIr. Osmers. When you say "return to their homes," you mean they 
leave the State of Indiana ? 

Mr. Deming. Yes; and go back where they came from. Part of 
them move on, following other crops, on up north into Michigan. 
However, a certain residue of them every year remains in Indiana, 
at the site of their last employment. 

ISIr. Osmers. Wliat sort of a problem does that constitute for the 
authorities of Indiana ? 

^Ir. Deming. It makes a very serious problem. These people are, 
by and large, unskilled. They cannot very readily find other types 
of employment after the picking season is over. It means they settle 
down there and are unemployable until the following year, when 
they pick tomatoes again. During this time it means they must be 
sup]jorted by public funds; public relief, in other words. 

Mr. Osmers. Do you have any settlement laws in the State of In- 
diana that would make that type of relief unavailable ? 

Mr. Deming. I believe the technical requirement is 1 year's resi- 
dence, but in actual practice when the people are there someb<tdy has 
got to take cai-e of them either through local agencies, or in some other 
way. 

Mr. Osmers. Charity? 

Mr. Deming. Township trustees, and so forth. When they are 
there, they actuall}' do take care of them. After the}' have been there 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 983 

tlie first season, they then Avould become eliirible nnder the hiw. when 
they have fulfilled the 1-year residence requirement. 

Mr. OsMERS. There is not any clause in your 1-year residence law 
that requires you to live for 1 year in the State without receiving- 
l)ublic assistance ( 

Mr. Demixo. Not that I know of. 

]Mr. OsjiERs. In most of the States we haA'e studied, residents on 
jMiblic relief does not constitute residence at all. You have to live 
without ])ublic relief for a specific period. 

Mr. Demixo. I see. 

Mr. Os-AiEus. In our travels, ]Mr. Deming, we have found in many 
States where tliere are migrant workers left over, so to speak, at 
the end of the season, an elfort is made by the State in which 
they are left to send them back to the State whence they came. Does 
Indiana make any such effort ( 

Mr. Dehiixg. Yes. There have been from time to time such ef- 
forts made. It is rather involved. The other State naturally re- 
sists such effort, but they have actually exported them, you might 
say, from time to time. It is fairly expensive in itself to pay their 
trans]wrtation and so foith back home. 

^Ir. OsMEiis. Aside from the pickers, how about the canning in- 
(hi-try? Are thev local Indiana workers? 

]Mr. Demixo. Yes. They are to a much greater extent. Some 
of these people have come in from outside of the State and. after 
the picking season is over, they attempt to find work in the canning 
factories. They are frequently able to do so. By and large, most 
of tlie labor employed in canning factories is local, the reason for 
th.at being that the w:ige scale is relatively much higher in the can- 
ning factory than for the picking, and local people are willing to 
acce])t employment in the canning factorv. 

Mr. OsMi :rs. In the canning industry in Indiana at the conclusion 
of the tomato-canning season, is there any other canning that con- 
tinues through the year? I am trying to establish the fact as to 
v\hether this is an annual business, or a seasonal business: that is, 
the canning business? 

jNIr. De:mtxg. "Well, that varies with the canner. They have some 
smaller canners located out in the tomato-picking area that can only 
tomatoes. Many of the larger ones, however, go right on through 
the fall, caiming pumpkins and that sort of thing. They open up 
in the spring and start canning peas and corn, and they will go 
right on through to pumpkins in November or December. I believe 
jnnnpkins are about the last crop the}' can. 

wages 

^Ir. OsMERS. I wonder if you would give the committee the benefit 
of your knowledge of the labor conditions and the wage conditions 
in the tomato-picking work. 

Mr. Deming. Yes. That is the crux of the problem here. By 
and large, the wages paid in the tomato picking, in terms of hun- 
dreds of people involved within one county, are so low the local 

260370 — 40 — pt. 3 12 



984 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

unemployed people are unwilling to accept that type of work, even 
though we may have in the county several thousand people nnem- 
]doyed. They are able-bodied, physically able to do the work. They 
refuse to acce):)t that type of employment because of the low Avages 
and the hard working conditions. 

^Ye have a strange situation. On the one hand we have a consider- 
able number of local unemployed people registered with the relief 
agencies, W. P. A., and so forth, and at the same time we have an influx 
of hundreds of outsiders who accept that type of employment. It is a 
very difficult thing to pin down, as to what is exactly the average wage 
paid, for the reason that it is based on a piece rate. They pay them so 
much a hamper. The size of the hamper varies, and from time to time 
the growers will use boxes or bushel baskets, pails, or anything they 
can get hold of. They get paid so many cents a basket or a hamper. 
There are so many variables it is impossible to tell what their earnings 
will be. For example, weather conditions affect it. If it has rained 
the night before, and the vines are bent down, they can't pick nearly as 
fast as otherwise. It depends on how recently the field has been picked, 
the condition of the field, how fertile it is, and so forth. 

The}' will pay them 4 or 5 cents for grade 1 tomatoes, for example. 
It is very difficult at times, due to the condition of the field in the 
early morning when there is dew on the tomatoes, to decide readily 
whether to pick them, and to pick them very readily. In the end, when 
they bring in their hampers and check them, there is frequently a dis- 
pute as to what grade they have picked, and so forth. 

As nearly as we can tell in the emj^loyment service in Indiana, an 
able-bodied man Avorking from 14 to 16 hours a day in a normal fertile 
field averages from $1.50 to $2.50. That is not the highest amount he 
may make, but the average for the season would tend to show they 
woidd make $1.50 to $2.50. 

Mr. OsMERS. Let me interrupt you right there. 

Mr. Deming. Yes. 

Mr. OsMERs. Does that include anything else aside from wages? 
Does it include housing and food i 

Mr. Deming. It will include some provision for housing. Housing 
may only consist of permission to sleep in the field. It may consist of 
any sort of shack available on the land. That is ordinarily included, 
where they live far enough away so they do not commute every day out 
to the farm. It would include provision for housing. Normally, the 
season is so short it would not include provision for cows, chickens, or 
anything like that. 

LIVING AND HEALTH CONDITIONS 

Mr. OsMFRS. Have you had any difficulties of a political nature on 
the part of local growers when they have had to go outside of the State 
to eet labor to pick their tomatoes? 

]Mr. Deming. Yes ; we have, in Johnson County, Ind. 

Mr. OsMERS. I am talking now about a man who is a taxpayer and 
contributing to the support of the local relief clients. 

Mr. Deming. Yes. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 985 

]Mr. OsMiRS. Then he must employ people from Kentucky or Mis- 
sissippi, or some place to do work around his place. 

Mr. Deming. Yes. 

Mr. OsMERs. We have a very similar condition in my State of New 
Jersey. I know it has created something of a problem. 

Mr. Deming. It has been rather the other way. The nongrowers 
and the general public resent the action on the part of the growers 
being willing to hire these out -of -State people, and in many instances 
actually encouraging out-of-State people to come in, when there are 
plenty of unemployed people already there. The growers' answer 
to that is that if they will work, they will be glad to give the local 
l)e()ple the jobs. The feeling seems to be there is something wrong 
with it. 

Mr. OsMERS. We found in New Jersey there were two contribut- 
ing causes to the fact that the relief client would not take this pick- 
ing work. One was laziness. The second cause was a lack of physi- 
cal equipment to do the work. In other words, a physical inability 
to spend a 14-hour back-breaking day in the field. 

Mr. Deming. Yes. 

Mr. OsMERS. That would be impossible for an unemployed store 
clerk, or something of that sort. 

Mr. Deming. Yes. 

Mr. OsMERs. Would j'ou say those were governing factors in In- 
diana also? 

Mr. Deming. Yes. 

Mr. OsMERS. Some are lazy and some are not equipped to do it? 

Mr. Deming. That is true. 

Mr. O'-MKRs. Indiana, I presume, has a State department of health. 

^Ir. Deming. Yes. 

Mr. OsMERS. Does the State depai'tment of health exert any con- 
trol at all over living conditions of these workers^ 

Mr. Deming. Xo ; they have not so far. 

Mr. Osmers. They have not investigated? 

Mr. Deming. No.^ 

thev checked the individual health of the 



they blood-tested them or anything of that 



Mr. Osmers. Is there any movement on foot leading in that direc- 
tion ? 

Mr. Deming. Not that I know of. The State planning board did 
report that their housing conditions did violate the law of Indiana, 
but so far as I know no action has ever been taken. 

Mr. Osmers. Again referring to my own State, we have investi- 
gated the situation there very carefully. We blood tested nearly 
every migrant worker that came into the State, into the potato- 
picking fields. We found they averaged more than 40 percent syphi- 
litic. I wonder if a similar condition exists in Indiana, whether 
that amount of syphilis is being brought into the State each year? 



Mr. Osmers. 


Have 


pickers ? 




Mr. Deming. 


No. 


Mr. Osmers. 


Have 


sort ? 




Mr, Deming. 


No. 



ggg INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

]Mr. Deming. It doubtless runs high above the State average. 

Mr. OsMERS. Unquestionably. 

Mr. Deming. I would not know whether it would be that high or 
not, 

Mr. OsMERS. In your statement you refer to a report on one of 
your counties that \vas made by the State planning board. 

Mr. Deming. Yes. 

Mr. O'SMERS. What is the State planning board ? 

Mr. Deming. It is a board set up and supported by Federal and 
State funds, and it is largely a research unit. I believe they are 
associated in Washington with the National Resources Board. It is 
a Government research unit investigating various phases of relief, 
labor conditions, agricultural conditions, and natural resources of the 
State, the need for public works and things of that kind. 

Mr. OsMERS. The name of this county they reported on, I believe, is 
Johnson County ( 

Mr. Deming. Yes. 

Mr. OsMERS. What did the plannnig board say about conditions in 
Johnson County ? 

Mr. Deming.' I believe. ])erhaps, I ought to read that excerpt. 

Mr. OsMERs. I think the committee would like to hear it. 

Mr. Deming. These two paragraphs are excerpts from the official 
report made by the State planning board with respect to Johnson 
County : 

Vegetable canning, the principal industry, is a seasonal occupation and there- 
fore has created serious economic and social problems attendant upon seasonal 
employment, ^tligration from Kentucky is responsible for a large part of the 
lelief population. Housing among relief clients, espec-ially those originating in 
Kentucky, is extremely bad and violates minimum standards of living, legal 
and otherwise, although rural housing is generally ab(jve the average for the 
State. 

Pay rolls are loaded with ti'ansient Kentuckians while many ■mployable 
citizens of Indiana are on relief rolls because of lack of eni])loyment. 

LABOR EMPLOYMENT 

Mr. Osmers. Would you say that is a statement that would apply 
to the rest of the agricultural i)arts of Indiana ? 

Mr. Dkming. No. I would say it would be pretty much limited to 
the tomato-picking section. 

Mr. O'^mers. I see. 

Mr. Deming. It would apply generally throughout that area. 

Mr. Osmers. I wanted to delineate that area. 

]\Ir. Deming. Yes. 

]SIr. Osmers. You say there are no accurate figures as to the number 
fif these migratory laborers that come into the State? 

Mr. Deming. No. 

Mr. Osmers. Could you answer this: Do these people, upon their 
own initiative, come there, or are they brought there by labor con- 
tractors, or perhaps foremen of the growers whose tomatoes are to be 
picked? 

Mr. Deming. To some extent they come on their own initiative. I 
know there are growers who advertise in newspapers in Kentucky. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 987 

"Oixlinaril}' the ad takes the form of aimoiincino- that they will have a 
truck down there at a certain hour on a certain date, and everybody 
who wants to come up and work there v\ill be transported by them. 
They send the truck down. The peo])le will ixather in the village 
square, the courthouse, or some place down there, and they briny- 
them u]). 

Mr. OsMERS. This is certainly of great interest to this committee, 
although it may be aside from your knowledge: Do you happen to 
know what most of these tomato pickers do for the remainder of the 
year ? 

Mr. Deming. Down in Kentucky, for example? 

Ml'. OsMERs. In Kentucky, oi- wherever they come from. 

Mr. Deming. They live in those little rural sections down there. 
I do not mean Louisville, or any of those cities. They are from the 
southern part of Kentucky. They live out on little farms. They 
farm. INIost of them are farm people. 

Mr. OsMERS. More or less subsistence farmers, as we call them ? 

Mr. Deming. Yes. They are tenant farmers and sharecroppers. 
The children, the sons and daughters, come and work for a couple of 
months, and then return to the old folks, having picked up a little 
cash. 

]Mr. OsMERS. Right on that point, do they have women and children 
working in these tomato fields? 

INIr. Deming. Yes. Some of these growers do employ women and 
children. 

jMr. OsMERS. Does the State of Indiana attempt to do anything 
about enforcing child-labor restrictions? 

Mr. Deming. We have no child-labor laws that cover the employ- 
ment of children in agriculture. There are some applying to the 
mining industry, but not agriculture. 

Mr. Osmers. These pickers tliat come for the tomato season are not 
annual migratory workers; that is, they do not follow the crops from 
the extreme South up to the North, and go back ? 

Mr. Deming. No. A large part of them come up for this one 
crop. 

]Mr. Osmers. A large proportion of them come up just for the 
tomato-picking season ? 

^Ir. Deming. Yes; and then return. 

IMr. Osmers. They get a little cash, and go back? 

INIr. Deming. Yes. 

Mr. Osmers. You are with the employment seivice^ 

Mr. Deming. Yes. 

Mr. Osmers. Therefore, you might be expected to h.ave a part in 
l)lacing these people. Does your employment service go into the 
placing of these workers or not? 

Mr. Deming. No; we do not. We faced this problem 2 or 3 years 
ago Miien we did get a large nimiber of orders from the growers for 
tomato pickers. In this region hundreds of people registered with 
us for work. As we got into it, through our local offices, and attempted 
to refer them, and place them, more and more we got to the point 
where we decided that, with rare exceptions, it was a substandard 



988 



IXTERSTATK MIUKATION 



job, and therefore involved the tyi^e of employment which from a 
I)iiblic relations standpoint, we should avoid. 

Our standard rule is that we do not refer people to substandard 
jobs, substandard in terms of wages, living conditions, or health 

conditions. 

Mr. (JSMERS. Do you feel it is within the jurisdiction of your 
agency to pass upon the working conditions, or not? 

Mr. Deming. I believe it is to the extent of determining whether 
or not a job is, as I say, substandard, if it is a pretty clear-cut case — 
beyond that, no. 

Mr. OsMERS. Carrying it to the extreme, if it vvas clearly a case 
of substandard working conditions, do you feel it would be within 
the scope of the agency with which you are connected to become^ 
shall we say, almost a law-enforcement agency? After all, you 
would be enforcing the State health laws of the State of Indiana^ 
yet you are the State employment service. 

Mr. Deming. Yes. That is true. We vrould refuse to send 
applicants. 

Mr. OsMERS. I see. 

Mr. Demixg. I believe we have that responsibility. 

Mr. OsMERS. I might express my own opinion that I do not be- 
lieve your agency has the power to do that, but that is just my own 
personal opinion. 

Mr. Deming. Yes. 

Mr. OsMERS. What is your procedure, presuming that I am oper- 
ating a farm on substandard wage conditions and' living conditions 
out 100 miles from your offices, somewhere? How would you be 
aware of that ? 

Mr. Deming. We would not get involved in it at all until such 
time as you came to our office to obtain workers. 

Mr. Osmers. I see. It would be after I did that ? 

Mr. Deming. Yes. 

Mr. Osmers. Would you then investigate me? 

Mr, Deming. Yes. We would want to find out something about 
you; what your reputation had been the year before, and that sort 
of thing. That can very easily be done through the people there 
in town, the canners, or that sort of thing. If nothing else, we 
might send out a half a dozen people to try it out and see how 
they came out. 

Mr. Osmers. In other words, it would be word-of-mouth testi- 
mony. If some dissatisfied worker said he had been employed at 
my place, and I had been very unfair to him the year before, you 
would feel it within your province to refused 

Mr. Deming. No. It would have to be considerably more than 
that. It would have to be a case where a great number of workers 
unanimously singled you out, and refused to work for you. In 
other words, there would have to be a number of them who would 
say, "I will work for you and you and you, but not one single one 
of us here in town would work for him."' We would think there 
must be some pretty good reason then. 

Mr. Osmers. What I want to get at is. do you feel the present law 
under which your employment service was established should be 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION QgQ 

c'liaiioed so (lie thiiifjs you are now doiiifj, in my opinion, illeo;ally, 
could be done legally, so that you would then have some opportunity 
foi- observing working- conditions and checking on hours and waores? 

Mr. Deming. Well, only to this extent : I think we are within our 
rights in turning down jobs that involve anythino- that is illegal. For 
example, if we, as one governmental agency, should place an appli- 
cant in employment that later developed to be illegal, such as placing 
a 14-year-old in a mining job, which the State labor law strictly for- 
bids, we would be in a defenseless position when the State labor depart- 
ment came to us. The employer would use us as an alibi. He would 
say, 'Well, the employment service recommended this employee," and 
we Avould then be in a defenseless position. 

We believe we can defend that kind of action. It nuist be definitely 
illegal employment in terms of actual State statutes, or definitely sub- 
standard, and then in the public interest we believe we are justified 
in refusing to refer people to that type of employment. 

Mr. OsMERS. What part of this agricultural industry, so to speak, 
is under the provisions of the wage-and-hours law ? 

Mr. Deming. The principal canning factories are, the larger ones, 
located in the larger towns. As I recall, the provisions of the wages- 
and-hours law, it is determined partly by whether they can produce 
outside of the immediate area of production, and partly by the size 
town in which they are located. The canning factories in Indian- 
apolis are subject to the wages-and-hours law. In many of our other 
towns a good many of them are subject to the Federal wages-and- 
hours law. 

Mr. OsMERS. Are any of these migratory workers organized ? 

Mr. Deming. No. There has been practically no activity along that 
line in Indiana. 

Mr. OsMERs. Do you feel it would be helpful if they were ? 

Mr. Deming. It might be one i^ossible solution. I think it would 
be an extremely difficult undertaking for anyone to organize them. 

Mr. OsMERS. You mean there would not be much money in it ? 

IVlr. Deeming. I think that is true. It would afford such a small 
amount, the monthly dues and that sort of thing, you could not offer 
much of an inducement. 

Mr. OsMERS. It is rather a fluid group to work with, with respect to 
forming any organization ? 

Mr. Deming. Yes. I would not say that was very likely to happen. 

Mr. Osmers. Probably not. The employment does not exist long 
enough to justify it. 

Mr. Deming. That is true. 

RECOMMENDATIONS 

Mr. OsMERs. What would your recommendations be to improve con- 
ditions for migratory workers in the State of Indiana ? 

Mr. Deming. We have had many sessions with various State de- 
partments and agencies on this very subject. We run into one stone 
wall, and that is this: Any action on the part of the State govern- 
ment that would tend to raise the cost of production of tomatoes, for 



ggQ INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

exaniiile. a niinimiim-wag:e law requiring: growers to pay a certain 
niininuun wnge of 25 or 30 cents an liour, it is claimed — I do not ques- 
tion it at all— would jKit Indiana canners at such a competitive dis- 
advantao-e that the result would undoubtedly be not to raise wages 
among the pickers in Indiana, but the result would be to do a\yay with 
the tomato-raising industry in Indiana, because they can raise them 
in the surrounding States very readily. 

In most of these canning factories they have not such a big invest- 
ment that they could not move the thing in. a couple of days over into 
Ohio. Kentucky, and so forth. The argument that is continually 
raised by many well-informed people is that that would be the in- 
evitable "result of any minimum-wage legislation or any strict control 
over housing, necessitating them to furnish one farmhouse for so many 
people in the same family, or that sort of thing, which would defi- 
nitely increase the cost to "the grower, forcing him to go out and build 
homes for them, and so forth. 

Mr. Curtis. I would like to ask a question right there, if I may 
interrupt. Mr. Osmers. 

jNIr. Osmers. Yes; certainly. 

Mr. Curtis. Is it not true, in dealing with the producer of agricul- 
tural products, that when you raise Avages and other costs it does not 
raise the price of tomatoes "or corn or anything else that is paid to the 
grower, but it really is deducted from that? 

Mr. Deming. Yes. That is the net effect. 

Mr. Curtis. Yes. 

Mr. Deming. Because, by and large, the canners in the end are still 
competing, and they feel that they could not pay the grower anything 
beyond a certain price. If this labor cost increases, that is more or 
less his problem. They still are going to pay them about the same 
price. 

Mr. Curtis. If the price of tomatoes and other agricultural prod- 
ucts is up high, then you do not have a great deal of quarrel with 
t hose growers to pay adequate wages, do you ? 

Mr.' Deming. Well, there would certainly be a tendency in that 
direction. The wider the margin they have to work on, in other words, 
the more ready they are to pay liigher wages. 

Mr. Osmers. Yes. 

Mr. Deming. It is difficult. They are squeezed down to where they 
do not see how they are going to come out, anyway. 

Mv. Curtis. They do often reach a point where the price of their 
crop is very near to wdiat they have to pay out ? 

Mr. Deming. That is very true. 

Mr. Curtis. In wages and other items ? 

Mv. Deming. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Sometimes just a little bit more will put them out of 
Imsiness ? 

Mr. Deming. That is very true. 

Mr. Osmers. I would like to ask one more question. Do you have 
a canners' association in Indiana? 

Mv. Deming. Yes ; we do. 

iNIr. Osmers. Is it an important, powerful, and effective group? 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 991 

Mr. Demixg. Yes; it is. It is rather important there. They send 
their representatives down to Wasliington for k)ng periods of time, 
and claim to do considerable good. It is a rather important gronp. 

Mr. OsMERS. Are they a forward-looking group of citizens? Are 
tliey interested in working conditions? And are they interested in 
labor standards ? 

]Mr. Deming. I believe they are a little bit more interested in mar- 
keting arrangements and in the wages-and-hours law as applied to their 
own canning factories, and in taxation. State taxation and things of 
that kind, rather than conditions pertaining to labor. 

Mr. Osmers. They have very little to do directly 

Mr. Deming. They are one step removed from the grower. 

Mr. Osmers. They have very little to do directly with the employ- 
ment of this migratory labor? 

Mr. Deming. That is true; but I would say they deal with at 
least 90 percent of all the tomato growers, so it would be a very 
representative association, pretty well financed. 

Mr. Osmers. Would you say the wages-and-hours law should be ex- 
tended to agriculture? 

Mr. Deming. I do not believe I would be qualified to answer that 
question directly. That would have the one advantage of eliminating 
this argument that no one State can afford to raise their cost of pro- 
(Uiction, because of the unfair competitive advantage. That would 
lemove that objection, if it were a national scheme. If the tomato 
laisers in Ohio and Michigan had to pay the same labor costs, I am sure 
the Indiana people would have no objection to ))aying 20 or 2.5 or 30 
percent higher wages, or whatever it would be, as long as everybody else 
is going to pay the same thing. 

Mr. Osmers. Do you anticipate you would have some difficulty in 
enforcement, because of the varying benefits that are given to the 
workers in addition to the cash they receive? 

Mr. Deming. That is true. It would be extremely difficult. 

Mr. Osmers. We have found every extreme, where they receive just 
cash, where they receive cash and substandard housing, where they 
I'eceive cash and good housing, and where the}^ receive cash, housing, 
and food. It might make it a pretty difficult problem to enforce it 
effectively. 

Mr. Deming. I think it would be extremely difficult. 

Mr. Osmers. But you feel it Avould eliminate the competitive argu- 
ment ? 

Mr. Deming. Yes. 

Mr. Osmers. Where one State might have it and not the others? 

Mr. Deming. Yes. 

Mr. Osmers. That is all I have. 

Mr. Parsons. Are there any other questions ? 

employment situation Lr^CAL AND INTERSTATE 

i\Ir. Sparkman. I have a question. Mr. Deming, I was just wonder- 
ing, with reference to your referring these people to the growers, or 
vour refusing; to refer them, if vou found out it was a substandard 



992 



IN'TERSTATE MIGRATION 



job. I have read over your requirements, and I was just wonderino; if. 
instead of insistinof uiwn the letter of those requirements, you could 
not work out some kind of a satisfactory arran^rement with the fjrowers 
themselves? For instance, down at Montjjomery we found that in- 
stead of the employment service applyinjz a definite rule— of course, 
that was with reference to cotton pickers— the pickers themselves often 
a])])lied the rule. In other words, the word got around that over on 
this plantation they do not receive the risht treatment, and therefore 
thev will not ao over there. The i)ickers just would not <x(>. 

He said that the net result of that was that all of the plantation 
owners came to pretty much the same scale of opei-ation in order to 
remove that competitive feature. I was just wonderino; if perhaps 
conditions could not be gradually lifted up 

Mr. Demino. Yes. 

Mr. Spaijkman. Through some kind of cooperative effort ? 

Mr. Demixg. Yes. That is very possible. This standard is not quite 
as arbitrary as it sounds. What we ask our local office managers is, 
"Under what conditions can you refer local unemployed people? 
You tell us you cannot handle these orders, because it means you 
have to send down to Kentucky to obtain laborers and that everybody 
is going to be on your neck if you bring up Kentnckians, when you have 
these local people registered in your offices.'' 

There were conditions under Avhich they could not get local people 
to take the work. We felt that we could "not consistently clear those 
orders and go outside of the State, when we had ])lenty of local quali- 
fied people who refused to take the job, because, in their judgment, at 
least, it was substandard, and they were unwilling to take it. We 
would place ourselves in the emi)l()ynient office in a bad light if we 
were responsible for bringing in hundreds and thousands of out-of- 
State people when they had at the same time these local unemployed 
people. 

]Mr. OsMERS. Have any people been removed from relief in Indiana 
lecause they refused to accept labor of this type? 

Mr. Deming. No. 

Mr. OsMERS. They have not ? 

Mr. Deming. No."^ W. P. A. will not remove them from the rolls. 
Thev have ruled it is unsuitable employment. 

Mr. OsMERS. One of the requirements here is to receive at least 30 
cents an hour. Do W. P. A. workers received 30 cents an hour ? 

Mr. Deming. It is about $45 a month for 130 hours. 

Mr. Sparkman. With respect to these people in Indianapolis, I 
notice you say you have a sufficient number within 25 miles of this area 
to do the work? 

Mr. Demixg. Yes. 

Mr. SpAEKMAN. They do not do it because of the fact that they I'e- 
gard it as substandard? 

Mr. Demixg. Yes; because of the low wages. 

Mr. Sparkmax. Does the (Question of experience have anything to 
do with it ? 

Mr. Deming. Yes. Of course, your industrial workers in Indian- 
apolis, even if the wages were a little bit higher, would not take this 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 993 

woi'k (111 a piece-work basis. They wouldn't fjo out and work 14 or IG 
houi's duriiio' a day, work all day in the hot sun carrying hampers, 
crates, and so forth. We have plenty of ])eople in Indianapolis who 
have migrated in from the rural areas. We could easily pick up sev- 
eral hundred people who had worked on the farms up until the last 
year or two and had done that type of work, who were farmers, farm 
"hands, and so forth. We have plenty of people available, limited 
strictly to men who have been raised on the farms as boys, or who 
have liad work on the farm up until the last year or two. 

Mr. Sparkman. I believe you said that not many of these people re- 
main ; most of them go back home? 

Mr. Deming. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. They just come and stay during the season? 

Mr. Deming. I would say by far the majority do go home. There is 
some residue, but the majority do go back home. 

Mr. Sp.arkman. I believe you stated your State department of health 
(loes not exercise control over housing and sanitary conditions? 

Mr. Deming. No. So far as I know, they have never made an in- 
vestigation or a public statement on this situation. 

Mr. Sparkman. Do you have county health units in each county? 

Mr. Deming. Well, yes. They represent a county official, responsible 
for the county, a health officer or something along that line. They 
have protested frequently, but nothing has ever come of it. 

Mr. Sparkman. I believe that is all. 

Mr. Parsons. Arethereany other questions? [No res])onse.] Thank 
you very much, Mr. Deming. Your paper has been made a part of our 
formal record. You are excused. 

(Whereupon Mr. Deming was excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF LEANDER TTJNGATE 

Mr. Parsons. The next witness will be Mr. Tungate. Congressman 
Sparkman will interrogate you, Mr. Tungate. 

Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Tungate, give your full name and address to 
tlie reporter, please. 

Mr. Tungate. Leander Tungate. Greenwood, Ind., route 1. 

Mr. Sparkman. Are you married ? 

Mr. Tungate. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Any children? 

Mr. Tungate. Five. 

Mr. Sparkman. Where are you from, originally ? 

Mr. Tungate. Kentucky. 

Mr. Sparkman. How did you happen to come to Indiana? 

Mr. Tungate. Well, my wife had a brother u]) there. Pie had a 
tomato cro)3 that he wanted picked. I wanted to help pick the tomatoes. 
I came up here. 

Mr. Sparkman. When was that ? 

Mr. Tungate. 1932 or 1933. I don't know which. 

Mr. Sparkman. Well, then, did you stay? 

Mr. Tungate. Yes. I didn't stay exactly at all times, though. 
Througli the summer and fall I would stay and then go back to Ken- 
tucky a couple of months through the worst of the winter. 



gg4 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. Sparkman. Then come back up in the spring ? 

Mr. TuNGATE. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. What is the tomato-picking season? When does it 
start in Indiana? 

]\Ir. TuNGATE. You mean, picking, setting, or which? 

Mr. Sparkman. Whatever work you do. Did you do all of the 
work ? 

Mr. TuNGATE. No. 

Mr. Sparkman. What did you do ? 

Mr, TuNGATE. Well, I have set, and I have picked. 

Mr. Sparkman. Now, I presume they use regular workers for pre- 
paring the ground, setting them out and cultivating? 

Mr. TuNGATE. That is right. 

Mr. Sparkman. And then they have an influx of workers that 
comes to do the picking? 

Mr. Tung ATE. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. When is the picking season? 

Mr. TuNGATE. Well, it is now. It is starting now, and runs until 
about frost, or something near that. I have picked them after they 
froze. 

Mr. Sparkman. Does your wife work in the tomato fields? 

Mr. TuNGATE. Once in a while. 

Mr. Sparkman. Any of your children? 

Mr. TuNGATE. No. 

Mr. Sparkman. How old is your oldest child? 

Mr. TuNGATE, Well. I believe she is 10 or a little over. 

Mr. Sparkman. Do you own your own home? 

Mr. TuNGATE. No. i don't own nothing. 

Mr. Sparkman. Do j-ou have a cow? 

Mr. TuNGATE. No, 

Mr. Sparkman. Do you have a garden? 

Mr. TuNGATE. No. 

Mr. Sparkman. Any chickens? 

Mr. TuNGATE. About six, I think. 

Mr. Sparkman. What did you do in Kentucky before you came up 
here ? 

Mr. Tungate Well, I farmed a little bit. I just worked on wages 
part of the time. 

Mr. Sparkman. On the farm ? 

Mr. Tungate. No. 

Mr. Sparkman. As a farm laborer? 

Mr. Tungate. I didn't own no farm. 

Mr. Sparkman. I did not mean that. You said you worked for 
wages. 

>Tr. Tungate. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. On the farm ? 

Mr. Tungate. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Were you a farm laborer? 

Mr. Tungate. Y^s. 

Mr. Spakkm^n What kind of a house do you live in ? 

Mr. Tungate. Not much. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 995 

Mr. Sparkman. What do you mean? Do you rent a house? 

Mr. TrxGATE. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. What rent do you pay ? 

Mr. TuNGATE. $2 a month. 

Mr. Sparkman. How many rooms? 

Mr. Tt'NGATE. One. 

Mr. Sparkman. You and 3'our wife and how many children? 

Mr. Tungate. Five. 

Mr. Sparkman. You all live in that one room? 

jMr. Tungate. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Do you cook in that room? 

Mr. Tungate. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. You sleep there ? 

Mr, Tungate. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Is there any other room in connection with it. any 
outside room, or anything? 

Mr. Tungate. No. That is just one room. 

Mr. Sparkman. Do you have running water? 

Mr. Tungate. Xo. We have got a well. 

Mr. Sparkman. What do you make per year, about what income? 

Mr. Tungate. Well, that would be kind of hard to say. I wouldn't 
know. Of course, it varies from year to year, according to conditions. 

Mr. Sparkman. I was just wondering what it woulcl amount to in 
round numbers. 

]Mr. Tungate. I just wouldn't have no idea. 

iNIr. Sparkman. How much can you make a day during the picking 
seas(jn ? 

Mr. Tungate. Around 3 or 4 dollars, in what time I get to work at 
that. 

Mr. Sparkman. Is the work prety regular during the season ? 

Mr. Ti NGATE. Yes, it is; during the season. 

Mr. Sparkman. The season will not last more than 2i4 or 3 months, 
will it? 

Mr. Tungate. Something near that. 

Mr. Sparkman. Have you ever worked at the cannery? 

Mr. Tungate. Very little. 

Mr. Sparkman. Do migrants haA^e any trouble coming into the 
county ( Do thev try to keep tliem out, or run them out, or anythino- 
like that ^ - . = 

Mr. Tungate. Well, they have a little trouble. I have heard. I don't 
know nothing about it, as far as I am concerned. 

Mr. Sparkman. You have never been disturbed ? 

Mr. Tungate. No. 

Mr. Sparkman. As a matter of fact, you are an old resident over 
there now yourself, are you not? 

Mr. Tungate. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. How do tomato pickers live when they come up 
into Johnson County? Are their living conditions prett}' much the 
same as yours, or not so good? 

^Tr. Tt'NGATE. Not so good. 

Mr. Sparkman. They live outside, do they? 



996 INTERSTATE MlGliATlOX 

Mr. TuNGATE. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. In tents, shacks, or what ? 

Mr. Tungate. Just in school-bus bodies, tents, or anytliing they can 
get to stay in. 

Mr. Sparkman. Just anything they can find i 

Mr. Tungate. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. What kind of sanitary facilities do you have ( Are 
there any sanitary closets of any kind? 

Mr. Tungate. I put up myself. 

Mr. Sparkman. You put up one yourself? 

Mr. Tungate. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. AVith respect to these migrants who come in. do they 
have any sanitary facilities? 

Mr. Tungate. I don't think so. 

Mr. Sparkman. Where do thej^ go after they finish tomato picking 
in Johnson County? 

Mr. Tungate. Most of them goes back. 

Mr. Sparkman. Back to Kentucky? 

Mr. Tungate. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. That is where most of them come from, is it not ? 

Mr. Tungate. Kentuckj', Tennessee, and Florida is where most of 
them come from. 

Mr. Sparkman. Do you know how many acres of txmialoes are 
usually grown in Johnson County? 

Mr. Tungate. I wouldn't have no idea. 

Mr. Sparkman. Do you know how many people it requires tu har- 
vest the crop each 3'ear? 

Mr. Tungate. No. 

Mr. Sparkman. I believe that is all. 

Mr. Curtis. How large a family did you say you had ? 

Mr. Tungate. Five. 

Mr. Curtis. How long have you been in Indiana ? 

Mr. Tungate. I have been there 6 years, off and on. 

Mr. Curtis. Have you sought public relief at any time ? 

Mr. Tungate. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Did they consider you a resident of Indiana fur that 
purpose ? 

]\Ir. Tungate. They ought to. I voted. 

Mr. Curtis. You had no trouble getting it from the residence 
standpoint ? 

Mr. Tungate. Xo. I didn't have no trouble. 

Mr. Curtis. With reference to this one-room house you spoke of, 
what is the size of that room ? 

Mr. Tungate. I believe it is about 16 by 18. or something near that. 
I wouldn't know exactly. 

Mr. Curtis. What part of Indiana is this located in? 

Mr. Tungate. Johnson County. 

Mr. Curtis. Where is Johnson County ? 

Mr. Tungate. Well, it is south of Marion. 

Mr. Curtis. That is all. 

Mr. Parsons. Have you any questions, Congressman Osmers? 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 997 

Mr. OsMERs. No, thank you. 

Mr. Parsons. Thank you very much. Mi-. Tun<j,;Ue. We appreciate 
your cominoj before us. 

(Whereupon Mr. Tunoate was excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM G. MURRAY, PROFESSOR OF AGRICUL- 
TURAL ECONOMICS, IOWA STATE COLLEGE, AMES, IOWA 

Mr. Parsons. Tlie next witness will be Mv. Murray. 

Mr. Curtis. Give your full name to the reporter, please, Mr. Murray. 

Mr. Murray. William G. Murray. 

Mr. Curtis. What is your occupation? 

Mr. Murray. Professor of agricultural economics, Iowa State Col- 
lege, Ames, Iowa. 

Mr. Curtis. You are out where the tall corn grows, are you not? 

Mr. Murray. Yes, sir. 

Air. Curtis, yiv. ^Murray, you have made a very interesting study 
here. I have your statement before me, and I find it very interesting. 
Your entire paper will be made a part of oin- record. Because this is 
a Xation-wide hearing, eventually in our report we must rely upon 
the ])rinted page. 

Mr. Murray. Yes. 

(The statement referred to is as follows:) 

Statement by William G. Murkay, Pr;>fessor of Agkicuetural Economics. 
Iowa State College, Ames, Iowa 

The farm tinancial .sitiiatiim in the Middle West and especially in Iowa may be 
snmmar.zed brielly in four points: 

1. The large reduction in farm-mortgage debt during the last Li years has 
been brought about chiefly by foreclosures and other forced sales. 

2. Although less than one-half of the fai'm land is mortgaged, the land inider 
mortgage is heavily mortgaged. Owner-operated land is more frequently UKU-t- 
gaged than land of absentee owners. 

8. Foreclosiires and other forced sales have been concenti'ated in certain ai'eas. 
Drought, soil erosion, and overvaluation have been the principal reasons for the 
distress in these problem areas. Corporate ownership of land is heavy in these 
areas. 

4. The trend in farm size is toward more large farms and more small farms, 
and toward less farms of medium size. Modern tractors and equipment are 
responsible for this two-way pressux*e. 

Recommendations for improvement of the situation, particuhiily in the prolilem 
ai'eas. include the following: 

1. Increased use of the sale contract by corporations in selling tlieii- farm land 
to tenants ; 

2. Expansion of the tenant-purchase program of the Farm Security Administra- 
tion through the use of Federal Land Bank and Land Bank Connnissioner loans; 
(use of these loans would make appropriated funds cover more than twice the 
present numbei- of tenants ) : 

.8. Increased use of variable payments on principal by lending agencies, the 
payment varying with the crop or livestock returns : 

4. More emphasis on appraising land in terms of what it will i)roduce: and 

.5. Provision of small, part-time or self-sufliciug, farm imits for people crowded 
out by increasing size of farm. 

Mortgage indebtedness declined in the Middle West and in Iowa almost con- 
tinuously between 102.') and 19.39. The largest drop took place during the years 
1P31-.S.5. These were the years when foreclosures and othei- forced sales were 
the highest. Most of the debt reduction was accomplished, as the data indicate. 
by cancelation through forced sales. (See exhibits A, B, C. and D.) 



998 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



One of the striking facts in the financial situation is the kirge number of farms 
without any mortgage debt. Almost two-thirds of the farms in the United States 
in ItKio were clear of mortgage. But this favorable fact has two qualifications. 
First, tlie situation is less favorable on the owner-operated farms : 25.1 percent of 
the tenant farms are mortgaged and 41.5 percent of the owner-operated farms. 
Secondl.v. those farms that are mortgaged are heavily mortgaged. Evidence on 
these points is presented in exhibits E. F, and G. 

The depression has hit some areas much more seriously than others. These dis- 
tress areas are indicated by the maps showing the location of land owned by cor- 
porations (exhibits H and P). In Iowa, insurance companies have more f.irni 
land than any other lending agency (exhibits K and L). In Iowa and other Mid- 
dle West States drought and soil erosion have been an important cause of the 
financial distress (exhibits M and N). The distribution of Farm Security Admin- 
istration standard-loan cases in Iowa bears ovit the concentration of financial 
distress in certain restricted areas (exhibit O). The effects of the drought are 
evident in the reduction in land values which has occurred in the drought States 
(exhibit Q). 

Tractors and modern equipment are causing a steady expansion in the size 
of farm most profitable to operate. As a result, the If.O-acre family-sized 
farm is growing into a 200- or 240-acre family-siz.nl farm. Adjoining farms 
or parts of farms are being rented or bought by farmers in order to keep their 
tractors and equipment busy. Many of the tenants who are displaced in this 
process are locating apparently on small part-time, or self-sufficing farm units. 
This two-way movement tov/ard moi'e larger and more smaller farms is indi- 
cated, for Iowa, in exhibit R. A similar tendency is evident in other middle 
west States. 

The depression, with its concentration of foreclosures and other forced sales 
in cei-tain problem areas, created a tenancy problem in these areas. Soil 
erf)Sion and heavy crojiping, which accounted in part for the foreclosures, 
continue to be major obstacles as long as the land is on the market. Tenants 
who are farming this land cannot be blamed for taking a short-sighted view 
when they know the farms may be sold at any time. Those lending corpora- 
tions who ai'e selling to tenants on contract with a small down payment are 
assisting matei'ially in I'elieving the tenant problem in areas where foreclosures 
have been high. 

Another means of assisting able tenants into ownership would be an ex- 
pansion of the tenant-purchase program of the Farm Security Administration. 
On January 1, 1910, the Farm Security Administration reported only 466 
tenant-purchase loans in the east north-central States and 804 in the west 
north-central division. In Iowa the total number of borrowers was 198. Since 
fund.- for these loans must come from direct appropriations, it would 
appear desirable to arrange Federal Land Bank and Land Bank Commissioner 
loans to the tenant-iiurchase borrowers and to use the appropriated funds for 
the am«>unt not covered by these loans. 

Financial disti'ess in the Middle West and the Great Plains region could 
be greatly I'educed if arrangements were made in advance for handling mort- 
gage delinquencies caused by drought and exceptionally low piices. The 
farmer's peace of mind and his attitude toward the mortgage-lending agency 
would be improved measurably if the principal payment on his mortgage vai'ied 
with his income or with his crop returns. In the past, moi'tgage agencies 
have been o):)erating as if farmers in the Great Plains could pay cash rent 
each year, whereas, as most landlords agree, a share of the crop is the better 
arrangement where yields and prices are highly variable. What is needed 
is a plan wher>^by the fan-ier makes a payment on his mortgage similar to 
the crop-share payment to the landlord. The Farm Security Administration 
has been using this plan in some cases. 

Tv,o other reconnnendations include better appraising and provision of small 
rart-time or self-sufficing farms for those fai'mers who are unable to obtain 
-avei-age-sized farms. Better appraising means more emphasis on the income- 
producing ability of the land and less on what it will bring in the market. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 
Exhibit B 



999 



Table 1. — Estimated farm-mortgage debt and number of farm-mortgage fore- 
closures in Iowa, 1913-38 

[Iowa Agricultural Experiment Station] 





Estimated 

farm-mortgage 

debt 


Estimated 
number of 
farm-mort- 
gage fore- 
closures 




Estimated 

farm-mortgage 

debt 


Estimated 
number of 
farm-mort- 
gage fore- 
closures 


Year, as of Jan. 1— 
1915 




200 

190 

110 

170 

110 

150 

790 

1,9.50 

1,875 

2,260 

2.325 

2.100 

2,300 


Year asof Jan. 1— Con. 
1928 


1, 395, 000, 000 

1, 350, 000, 000 

1,310,000,000 

1,280,000,000 

1,190,000,000 

1,020,000,000 

9?0, 000, 000 

810, 000, 000 

770, 000, 000 

740, 000. 000 

720,000.000 

710, 000, 000 


1 875 


1916 


$685, 000, 000 

760, 000, 000 

865,000,000 

960, 000, 000 

1,070,000,000 

1, 500, 000. 000 

1,610,000,000 

1, 600, 000, 000 

1,620,000.000 

1,605,000,000 

1. 530. 000, 000 

1,470,000,000 


1929 


1 500 


1917 


1930 


1 500 


1918 


1931 


3 400 


1919 


1932 


6,400 
3 700 


1920 


1933 


1921 


1934 _ 


4, 100 


1922 

1923 


193.5 

1936 


2,000 
1, 4.50 


1924 

1925 

1926 


1937 

1938 

1939 


1,375 
550 


1927 





Exhibit C 

Table 2. — Estimated farm-mortgage debt of East and West North Central States, 

1925-39 ' 





East North 
Central ? 


West North 
Central ^ 


Total 


Year, as of Jan. 1— 

1925 


$1, 939, 000, 000 
1, 887, 000, 000 
1, 855, 000, 000 
1.881,000,000 
1,918,000,000 
1, 884, 000, 000 
1, 819, 000, 000 
1, 758, 000, 000 
1, 658, 000, 000 
1, 523, 000, 000 
1, 535, 000, 000 
1, 518, 000, 000 
1, 471, 000. 000 
1, 433, 000, 000 
1, 409, 000, 000 


$4, 278, 000, 000 
4, 009, 000, 000 
3, 808, 000, 000 
3, 779, 000, 000 
3. 735, 000, 000 
3, 570, 000. 000 
3, 474, 000, 000 
3, 342, 000. 000 
3, 082, 000, 000 
2. 761, 000, 000 
2. 694, 000, 000 
2,611,000,000 
2. 467, 000, 000 
2, 376, 000, 000 
2, 291, 000, 000 


$6, 217, 000, 000 


1926 


5, 896, 000, 000 


1927 

1928 


5, 663, 000, 000 
5, 660, 000, 000 


1929 


5, 653, 000, 000 


1930 . .. 


5, 454, 000, 000 


1931 


5, 294, 000, 000 


1932 

1933 


5,100,000,000 
4, 740, 000, 000 


1934 


4, 284, 000, 000 


1935 


4, 229, 000, 000 


1936 .. 


4, 129, 000, 000 


1937 


3, 938, 000, 000 
3, 809, 000, 000 
3, 700, 000, 000 


1938 .. 


1939 



1 From Agricultural Finance Review, U. S. Department of Agriculture, vol. 2, No. 2, November 1939. 

2 States of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, and Wisconsin. 

3 States of Minnesota, Iowa, Missouri. North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, and Kansas. 



260370— 40— pt. 3 13 



1000 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 
Exhibit D 



Tabij; 3. 



-Volitntarij sales and forced sales per 1,000 farms in East and West 
North Central areas, 1926-39 ' 





Voluntary sales 


Forced sales 




East North 
Central 2 


West North 
Central 2 


East North 
Central 


West North 
Central 


Year ending Mar. i5: 

1926 - 


25.8 
25.8 
24.0 
21.0 
20.8 
18.6 
16.8 
15.6 
16.5 
18.7 
23.9 
33.9 
29.0 
27.1 


23.0 
24.3 
23.9 
22.4 
22.9 
18.9 
14.2 
13.8 
15.5 
17.7 
22.5 
28.1 
26.9 
26.3 


18.9 
20.4 
20.7 
19.1 
22.3 
24.0 
34.3 
43.9 
32.0 
23.5 
22.1 
19.0 
13.5 
13.5 


30 8 


1927 


32 


1928 


32.4 


1929 


25.9 


1930 . 


27.5 


1931 - 


31.3 


1932 


52.5 


1933 . . 


72.0 


1934 


50.9 


1935 


40.6 


1936 


38.0 


1937 


31.7 


1938 - 


27.0 


1939' 


26.9 







1 From Farm Real Estate Situation, U. S. Department of Agriculture (Various circulars.) 
' For States included, see table 2. 
3 Preliminary. 

Exhibit E 
Table 4. — Farm-mortgage debt in Story County, Iowa, 1925-39 ^ 



Year as of Jan. 1: 

1925 

1930-.- - 

1931 

1932 

1933 

1934 

1935 

1936 

1937 

1938 

1939 



Number 
of mort- 
gages 



2,396 
2,064 
2,043 
1,984 
1,947 
1,805 
1,860 
1, 808 
1,785 
1,778 
1,777 



Total mort- 
gage debt out- 
standing 



$23, 520, 000 
19, 435. 000 
18, 682. 000 
17, 038, 000 
16,115,000 
14, 45S, 000 
13, 729, 000 
12, 900, 000 
12, 464, 000 
11, 902, 000 
11,960,000 



Land mort- 
gaged as 
percentage 
of all land 



Debt per 
acre of land 
mortgaged 



$110 
93 
90 
81 
77 
75 
71 
68 
67 



' For data prior to 1932, see Res. Bui. 156, Iowa Agricultural E.xperiment Station. Figures for 1932 are 
revised. 

Exhibit F 

Table 5. — Mortgaged farms as percent of all farms according to tenure, 1935, in 

selected areas ' 



Areas 


Owner- 
operated 
farms 


Tenant 
or man- 
ager op- 
erated 
farms 


All 
farms 


Areas 


Owner- 
operated 
farms 


Tenant 
or man- 
ager op- 
erated 
farms 


All 
farms 


United States 

East North 

Central 

West North 

Central _-. 


Percent 
41.5 

45.1 

54.7 


Percent 
25.1 

23.0 

25.2 


Percent 
34.5 

38.4 

42.0 


Indiana 

Illinois 

Iowa 

Nebraska 


Percent 
44.8 
41.0 
57.8 
61.0 


Percent 
28.0 
18.9 
29.6 
26.1 


Percent 
39.4 
31.0 
43.6 
43.6 







> From Farm Mortgage Indebtedness in the United States, cooperative survey, U. S. Department of 
Commerce and U. S. Department of Agriculture, 1937. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 
Exhibit G 



1001 



Tabt-e 6. — Estimated percentage of oivner-operated farms mortgaged, 1920, 1930, 
and 1936, for selected areas ^ 



Area 


1920 


1930 


1935 


Area 


1920 


1930 


1935 


United States 


41.1 
45.8 
56.9 
41.3 


44.6 
48.1 
57.1 

48.0 


41.5 
45.1 
54.7 
44.8 


Illmois 


42.6 
59.1 
56.6 


44.0 
60.9 
61.0 


41.0 






57.8 


We''t North Central 


Nebraska 


61.0 













1 From Agricultural Finance Review, U. S. Department of Agriculture, vol. 1, No. 2, November 1938. 

Exhibit L 
Table 7. — Land holdings of corporations by type of corporation,^ 1933-39 



Type of corporation 


Acreage (000 omitted) 


Percent of all farm land in 
Iowa owned by corpora- 
tions 




1933 


1935 


1937 


1939 


1933 


1935 


1937 


1939 




1,343 
536 
76 
256 
332 
145 


2,044 
499 
129 
276 
317 
166 


2,510 
388 
189 
253 
290 
181 


2,752 
347 
232 
253 
241 
219 


3.9 
1.6 

.2 

.85 
1.0 

.4 


6.0 
1.5 
.4 
.8 
1.0 
.4 


7.4 
1.1 
.6 
. 7 
.9 
.5 


8.1 


Deposit banks, open and closed 


1.0 


Federal land bank ^ 


.7 




.7 


Land, investment, and mortgage companies. . 
Miscllaneous 


.7 
.7 






Total 


2,683 


3,431 


3,811 


4,044 


7.9 


10.1 


11.2 


11. 



' Data for 1933 center approximately on September, for all other years center on January. 
2 Includes Land boJding.s of Federal Farm Mortgage Corporation. 

Exhibit Q 

Table 8. — Farm real estate: Estimated value per acre, in terms of pre-war acre- 
age value, by selected areas. Mar. 1, 1920, 1930, 1935, 1940 ' 



Areas 


1920 


1930 


1935 


1940 


Areas 


1920 


1930 


1935 


1940 


United States.- 


170 
160 

184 
161 


115 
96 

109 
80 


79 
68 
68 
61 


85 
78 
67 

74 


Illinois.. - 


160 
213 
179 

181 


91 
113 
113 

93 


61 
67 
72 

54 


75 


East North Central 


Iowa... _ . . 


74 


West North Central 


Nebraska.. . 


65 


Indiana .. 


South Dakota 


45 









1 From press release, U. S. Department of Agriculture, Apr. 17, 19^0. 

Exhibit R 
Table 9. — Farms in loica classified according to size. Federal census, 1925, 1935 



Size group 


Number 


Percentage 


Size group 


Number 


Percentage 


1925 


1935 


1925 1935 


1925 


1935 


1925 


1935 


Under 20 acres 

20 to 49 acres 

60 to 99 acres 

100 to 174 acres 

175 to 2.59 acres 


13,125 
12, 593 
34 528 
86, 373 
41,475 


18, 812 
13,813 
34, 285 
84, 917 
42, 342 


6.2 

5.9 

16.2 

40.5 

19.4 


8.5 
6.2 
15.4 
38.3 
19.1 


250 to 499 acres 

500 to 999 acres 

1,000 acres and over. 

Total 


23, 503 

1,789 

104 


25, 619 

2,047 

151 


11.0 

.8 


11.5 
.9 
.1 


213, 490 


221, 980 


100.0 


100.0 



TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM G. MUERAY— Resumed 

Mr. Curtis. There are a few things about it I would like to make 
some inqiiii'y on. 



1002 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. Murray. I will be glad to answer any questions you may wish 
to ask. 

FARM DEBT SITUATIOX 

Mr. Curtis. You have discussed the situation with regard to farm 
mortgages. We know there has been a decline in the total farm in- 
debtedness from 1925 to 1939. To what do you attribute this decline? 

Mr. Murray. The main reason is the cancelation of debt through 
foreclosure and through the forced deeding over of land to creditors. 
A large amount of the so-called debt reduction has actually been liqui- 
dation, and has resulted in farm owners becoming farm tenants. 

Mr. Curtis. Does that mean that fewer families or more families 
are making their homes and securing their living from the land in 
general ? 

Mr. Murray, That in itself has very little to do with the number of 
families that are making a living on farms. It has meant chiefly that 
men who were farm owners are now farm tenants. Of course, farm 
tenancy, as far as we can gather, in Iowa, and to some extent in the 
Middle West, is not increasing. We will have to wait, however, to get 
the 1940 census returns to be sure that our estimate is correct. 

Mr. Curtis. Is the owner-operated land more frequently mortgaged 
than the land of absentee owners? 

Mr. IMuRRAY. Yes ; it is quite definitely so in practically all the areas 
where we have made any investigation. It is also shown by all the 
statistics of the Federal census and Department of Agriculture that 
owner-operated farms are more frequently mortgaged. That is more 
true now, because a great many of the absentee-owned farms are insur- 
ance company. Federal land bank, and other creditor agency farms. 

Mr. Curtis. Is the land occupied and farmed by tenants heavily 
mortgaged, usually, or clear of mortgage? 

Mr. Murray. It is more often clear of mortgage. If a farm is owned 
by an absentee owner there is a greater chance of its being without a 
mortgage than the other way around. 

Mr. Curtis. That is especially true if it is corporately owned ? 

Mr. Murray. Yes; and more especially in recent years since the 
first-mortgage holders, such as the insurance companies, the Federal 
Land Bank, and so forth, have had to take over a large amount of 
land. 

Mr. Curtis. This committee is studying the interstate migration of 
destitute citizens. With respect to this farm owner and mortgage situa- 
tion generally, what relation has that to keeping people on the farms, 
and particularly the youth ? 

Mr. Murray. The terrific personal tragedy resulting from the fore- 
closure and the deeding over of land to mortgage holders has broken 
home ties, and has made it much easier for people to give up their idea 
of remaining in a community and becoming attached to the soil. We 
find many young men who previously would have become farmers and 
farm owners, and would have been interested in staying in the com- 
munity, now feel otherwise, because they have seen their fathers lose 
all that they had, because they did farm, and during the depression 
the father w^as unable to hold on to the farm. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1003 

PREVAILING TREND TO LARGER FARMS 

Mr. Curtis. What does this situation that you have described have 
to do with the trend toward hirger farms or smaller farms? 

Mr. MiTRRAY. The debt situation itself has not contributed much to 
the size of farms. The main factor which his disturbed the size of 
farms is modern equipment and to some extent other minor functions 
of technological improvement. The increase in the capacity of the 
tractor, and modern equipment, makes it possible now for one man 
to operate much more land than he did previously. 

Mr. Curtis. Yes. 

Mr. Murray. That has forced many farmers to increase the size of 
their farms if they could. We find it quite common for a farmer on 
160 acres to look around for a spare 40 or 80. or to pick up another 
farm, so as to get enough additional land to make it profitable for him 
to use this modern ec{uipment. 

Mr. Curtis. That situation prevails in Iowa? 

Mr. Murray. I think it also prevails in other States, such as the 
State of Nebraska. 

Mr. Curtis. The point I was coming to is this : It is more marked 
when we come to the semiarid land? 

Mr. Murray. That is correct. 

Mr. Curtis. Because of the high cost of machinery and other things, 
they must go into farming on a larger scale ? 

Mr. Murray. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. I think you will also find — I wonder if you will agree 
with me — that in the more semiarid land, when the mortgagee takes 
this land over, if he has two or three farms and can locate one out- 
standing tenant, he is more apt to rent all of that land to one person, 
while before they were foreclosed, each one of them maintained a 
farmer ? 

Mr. Murray. That is correct. 

Mr. Curtis. By diversifying the use of gardens and that sort of 
thing it was possible for each one of them to maintain a farmer ? 

Mr. Murray. Yes. I think there is good evidence on that which 
bears out your point. As you go through some of the Great Plains 
area, and also even in Iowa, you will find abandoned farmsteads, but 
not abandoned land. The farmsteads are abandoned because, as you 
suggest, some of the better tenants with modern machinery are farming 
this land which was previously farmed by three or four tenants. It 
is now being farmed by one or two. 

Mr. Curtis. I have observed from the census reports that some of 
the counties in my district have lost 25 percent of their population. 
They were farming counties. 

Mr. Murray. Yes. 

JNIr. Curtis. Is it true that the Extension Service has issued pub- 
licity material in Iowa encouraging farm units of 250 acres or more? 

Mr. Murray. I have no knowledge that we have advocated units 
of that size. We have pointed out the fact that farms are working out 
in two different directions. We are having more small farms, and also 
more large farms, but the general average, however, is staying about 



]^QQ4 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

the same. People refer to the 160-acre farm as the average. That has 
been true, and still is true. 

The thing that is going on, but is not seen by many people is 
that some farmers are being forced out, and in the process of being 
forced out are not going to larger farms. They are forced to get 
a small acreage around some town, the result being that our census 
statistics reveal more small farms and more large farms. It means in 
the process someone is being forced out. 

Mr. Curtis. With respect to these small farms, are they large 
enough to provide complete income for a family? 

Mr. Murray. I would hesitate to say they provide a complete in- 
come. They are probably a part-time self-sufficient type of farm, 
in many instances. 

Mr. Curtis. Where are these people going that formerly lived in 
these farmsteads? Have you made any observation of that? 

Mr. Murray. We have not followed any of them around. At least, 
I have not seen any studies made where they have followed these 
people who have left these farms. We hear that they go different 
places. Some of them go West. Some go South. Some of them 
go to towns nearby. 

Mr. Curtis. I see. 

JVIr. Murray. They are moving, however. They are not stable. 

Mr. Curtis. Now, you have not only analyzed the situation for the 
committee, but you have made some definite and concrete suggestions 
of remedy. 

Mr. Murray. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. What are those suggestions? 

NEED for return OF INDIVIDUAL FARM OWNERSHIP 

Mr. Murray. We feel that the first problem that must be tackled 
is that of the man who lost the farm and is now a tenant, and as 
a tenant is not a stable part of the community, we feel we need 
to reprovide him with a part in ownership, not only he himself, but 
his son and others of the family. 

We feel that the efforts made by the creditor agencies are only 
a beginning. With the opportunity they have, with large numbers 
of farms, both private agencies, such as insurance companies and 
Federal agencies, like the Farm Credit Administration, and Federal 
land banks, have a wonderful opportunity to set up these previous 
owners as new ow^ners, if they can find these men and give them 
a contract. 

Many of them have not the necessary funds, but many of them 
could buy farms now for half of what they paid for the farms they 
owned 15 or 20 years ago. If some of these private agencies would 
make an aggressive campaign to sell on a contract basis with a small 
amount down, a large part of this problem would be avoided, and 
I think a number of people Mdio now have very little hesitation about 
moving from one place to another in the hope of finding greener 
pastures would find that green pasture right at home, if there were 
more energy put in to make it a possibility for them to have their 
home there. 



I 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1005 

Mr. Curtis. How do you think the Federal Land Bank should dis- 
pose of the hind it has taken over^ 

Mr. Murray. The Federal Land Bank in our area has made a very 
intensive campaign, and, according to the latest reports, have been 
very successful in selling farms on contract. Their down payment 
may be a question of whether it is as much as it should be. It is 
interesting that the Farm Security Administration is going probably 
a step further than the Federal land bank, and wisely so, in my opin- 
ion, although there is a difference of opinion as to how much a man 
should have to pay down ; but it is interesting to note that the Federal 
land bank has made more headway than some of the private agencies. 

We are interested, when insurance companies, who own farms, come 
into the State, in asking them, ^'Why don't you take some of your farms 
and make contracts with your tenants, if they are good ones, for owner- 
ship? When you get a man on there who thinks he is going to own 
that farm some day, he is going to do a better job, and take better care 
of it than when he realizes that any day he might get a notice that the 
farm is sold and he has to move off. Where is he going to move?" 

SUGGESTIONS FOR IMPROVEMENT OF FEDERAL FARM AID 

Mr. Curtis. You make some distinction between a tenant purchas- 
ing a farm through the Farm Security Administration and the Federal 
Land Bank. Which seems to be the more practical and the better- 
working method where you have observed it ? 

Mr. Murray. I think there is no reason for the distinction between 
the two agencies, but I do feel that there should be more cooperation, 
and that many of the farms which the Federal Land Bank owns could 
be taken over by the Farm Security Administration and set up on the 
basis of a tenant-purchase contract to help the tenants, in many cases, to 
get farms. 

It seems to me that the bottleneck in our re-ownership campaign is 
largely a question of funds in the Farm Security Administration. 
Every time the Farm Security Administration wants to set a farm up, 
or set a farmer up on a farm, they have to get a complete appropriation 
from Congress for the entire purchase price of the farm. It does not 
seem to us reasonable that that should be true. It seems reasonable 
to us that the Federal Land Bank, or Federal Land Bank Commis- 
sioner could either provide farms which it owns, or at least could 
provide a large part of the money necessary to purchase the farm, so 
the tenant purchasing the farm under the Farm Security Administra- 
tion would get a loan through the land bank, which would make the 
tenant purchase funds go two or three times further than they are 
going today. 

Mr. Curtis. In other words, instead of a money appropriation by 
Congress to buy farms, use the farms that another Government agency 
already has and, by an appropriate interchange of securities and so 
forth, let the Farm Security Administration sell them ? 

Mr. Murray. That is right. 

Mr. Sparkman. I wonder if I might interrupt right there ? 

Mr. Curtis. Yes. 



IQQQ INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Murray, I wonder if you are familiar with the 
Peterson bill that has been pending in Congress for some time and 
came up in the House last week for action ? I assume it passed. I do 
not know. 

Mr. OsMERs. It was not passed. It was defeated. 

Mr. Murray. I am not acquainted with that bill. I will look it up. 

Mr. Sparkman. You might be interested in looking it up. Without 
trying to give you the details I might say that it is really aiming in 
the direction you mentioned. 

Mr. OsMERS. I think one of the reasons — now that the Peterson bill 
has been mentioned in the record of the committee — one of the reasons 
why the bill was not favorably acted upon by the House was, it was 
felt in a period of years the amount of money involved would run into 
billions and billions of dollars. That was the fact that prompted its 
defeat in Congress. 

Mr. Curtis. The Farm Security present set-up for selling farms 
provides more liberal terms than the Federal Land Bank? 

Mr. Murray. That is correct. 

Mr. Curtis. What about the rate of interest? 

Mr. Murray. The rate of interest is also more favorable if a man 
is selected through the farm-tenant purchase program of the Farm 
Security Administration. 

Mr. Curtis. Here is a very jjractical situation we meet : The present 
set-up of the Farm Security Administration in my State provides for 
the purchase of one farm in each county, approximately, for some 
tenant. Rate of interest, I believe, is 3 percent. 

Mr. Murray. That is correct — plus an amortization charge. 

Mr. Curtis. Yes. 

Mr. Murray. Which brings it to about 41/0 percent. 

Mr. Curtis. We have one Government agency picking out one 
farmer in a caanty and giving him very liberal terms and another 
Government agency foreclosing upon his neighbors who are facing 
harsher terms. It has made a rather unsatisfactory arrangement. 

Mr. Murray. That is true. 

Mr. Curtis. I think your suggestion has great value and should be 
definitely considered. Are there any other suggestions you have to 
make, other than liberalization and working together of the Federal 
Land Bank, Federal Land Bank Commissioner, and the Farm Security 
Administration ? 

Mr. Murray. In addition to that, it seems to me that there is a move 
on now to make more provisions in the loans and in the arrangements 
for ownership in areas like the Great Plains and parts of the Middle 
West where the income each year is so variable. The previous con- 
tracts that have been set up by the Federal Land Bank have been 
unsatisfactory. One reason. I think, why we have had as much fore- 
closure and other types of distress as we have had has been because 
our loan provisions and our whole debt structure was made on a 
national basis rather than a regional basis. 

There is one difficulty with the Farm Security Administration and 
the insurance companies. They have always felt they have been better 
off to have a contract which specified payment on October 1 of a 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1007 

definite number of dollars, rather than to have a contract that provided 
for a certain payment in terms of the crop raised. They insist npon 
those contracts callinfj for a fixed payment, but they are not nearly 
as secure, if they only knew it, as if they had had contracts which 
provided for a portion of the crop. 

Mr. Curtis. In lean years the farmer would have less than he would 
have to pay ? 

Mr. INIuRRAT. That is correct. 

Mr. Curtis. In years of good crops he would be reducing his debt 
more ? 

Mr, Murray. That is correct. In the surplus year, the year of 
good crops or good prices, it is reasonable that the man can pay and 
should pay more. I3ut we have cases on file where insurance com- 
panies refused to accept payment in a surplus year because they w^ere 
worried as to what to do with the funds. Later on they would have 
been very anxious to have gotten those same funds. 

Mr. Curtis. By making that in crop units, such as bushels or tons, 
and so forth, that he pays, you would cushion the owner against a very 
low price? 

Mr. Murray. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. In bad years? 

Mr. jNIurray. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. You also give the mortgagee the benefit of high prices 
in good years ? 

Mr. Murray. That is correct. I would like to also say that the Farm 
Security Administration, as I understand it, is making definite prog- 
ress along these lines in areas in which some such arrangement would 
be helpful. 

Mr. Curtis. Have you any further suggestions ? 

RE^^SION or valuation of farms 

Mr. Murray. There are one or two other suggestions. There is one 
suggestion with respect to the valuation of farms. We can notice a 
great deal of improvement in our State, those of us who have been 
studying the problem at the experiment station, in the way in which 
the lending agencies have been appraising farms. They are becoming 
more conscious that the farmer cannot pay enough if he does not 
have income, and in the process of valuation in the future, more 
emphasis is being placed on income, and wisely so. If you are going 
to make a loan out in Nebraska, western Iowa, certain parts of Minne- 
sota or South Dakota, the income of the farmer, the fact that it varies, 
and also its amount, are the important things to consider, and not just 
what a man paid for a farm. 

We feel that is a definite step in advance that has happened in the 
last 5 or 6 years. I might say in connection with contracts, some of 
the local insurance companies — insurance companies whose home offices 
are in the Middle West — worked out plans for selling farms to tenants 
on a small dow^n payment, and these companies have been far in 
advance of those companies whose head offices are back East. It is 
largely because of the fact that the companies back East do not realize 



2008 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

yet tlie problem that exists in tlie Middle West and the Great Plains 
area. 

Mr. Curtis. They are further removed from their investment? 

Mr. Murray. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Do you feel that the Federal Land Bank should resell 
the farm, the same farm, to the same man they foreclosed upon ? 

Mr. Murray. That is a problem which the Farm Security Admin- 
istration will have a good deal of difficulty in handling. So many 
times the farmer who owned the farm is now older, or is not inter- 
ested ; but in many cases I believe they are making an attempt to find 
and give the owner a chance to repurchase that farm. I know of one 
farmer in Nebraska, by the way, who did not want to repurchase his 
old farm. He wanted to purchase another farm. That is a problem, 
of course, of Federal Land Bank policy, which we do not feel we are 
competent to make a recommendation on, although we do think the 
general policy that the Federal Land Bank is adopting is sound — of 
trying to get the farms out on contract to farmers. 

Mr. Curtis. Insofar as age, health, and general attitude would per- 
mit, you would say the Federal Land Bank should go just as far as 
possible in giving the individual who had lived on the farm many 
years and who had to fight to save it, the same advantage of protection 
as they would a stranger ? 

Mr. Murray. Yes. 

mechaxizatiox 

Mr. Curtis. With regard to mechanized farming, have you any sug- 
gestion with respect to that? 

Mr. Murray. That is a problem which is very serious. The manu- 
facturers in some cases are meeting the issue, trying to help by produc- 
ing smaller tractors, baby tractors, to fit the size of the farms. We 
cannot very well stop progi'ess. Wliat we have to do is to keep our 
plants going at economic size, if possible, and make arrangements for 
those who are unable to meet the competitive struggle on the size 
which tends to be most profitable. 

Mr. Curtis. During good times there is a tendency for the farmer, 
when he abandons the horse and goes to the tractor, to at the same 
time abandon his milk cows, chickens, and the family garden, perhaps, 
and not live on the land. Is not that true ? 

Mr. Murray. I would not be able to speak so much with respect to 
that, because we have not made any survey of that particular type of 
activity. We do know, of course, there is less of the self-sufficiency 
on the farm than there used to be. We are raising less oats and more 
soy beans. We are raising more things for market and producing 
fewer things for the household. That again is the development of the 
country in terms of making more efficient certain types of specialized 
farming. 

Mr. Curtis. I think, Mr. Murray, you have made a very valuable 
contribution to our Nation-wide study. I think it is well to bear in 
mind that we have not begun to exhaust the possibilities of the State 
legislature in dealing with farm ownership. The title to real estate 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1009 

IS a matter of State government. They define what a deed is, a con- 
tract, and a mortgage. They have vast and unused powers over legal 
ownership of farm land by corporations. 

Mr. Murray. That is true. 

Mr. Curtis. I think some of the States in the future are going to 
give some attention to that. It is a national problem. You have 
made a very valuable contribution, for which we thank you. That 
is all I have. 

Mr. Parsons. Do any of the other members of the committee have 
a question? 

INSURANCE COMPANIES AND FARM OWNERSHIP 

Mr. OsMERS. I would like to ask a question. You testified, Mr. 
Murray, about private agencies controlling a good deal of these 
farms that have been foreclosed. 

Mr. ^Murray. Yes, 

Mr. OsMERS. I presume you mean insurance companies, large and 
small, and banks? 

Mr. Murray. That is correct. 

Mr. OsMERs. Are there any other groups? 

My. ^Iurhay. Mortgage companies. 

Mr. OsMERS. IMortgage companies? 

Mr. Murray. Yes. There are also some educational institutions 
who have loaned mone}^ on farms and unfortunately found that they 
had them on their hands. 

Mr. OsMERS. You have made what I consider some extremelj'^ valu- 
able suggestions as to the way the Federal Government can straighten 
out their procedure with respect to the Federal Land Bank problem. 
Is it not possible to form some kind of a conference of the so-called 
private agencies, some sort of group, so they can in turn also adopt a 
policy which would meet with local conditions, such as you say a few 
small middle western insurance companies are tr3nng to do? 

Mr. ^Murray. I think you have made an excellent point. At one 
time during tlie last few years we actually made the suggestion from 
the experiment station on the basis of our records that the insurance 
companies get together and plan some way of getting this land back 
into tlie hands of the owner-operators. Because they were not doing 
it was one reason why the Federal Land Bank and Farm Security 
Administration were having to do it. 

The insurance companies owned approximately, as of Januaiy 1, 
1939, 8 percent of the whole State of Iowa. It was concentrated in 
few enough companies so they could easily have gotten together and 
said, "We have that responsibility of getting this land back into 
the hands of the owner-operators," but they did not do anything. 
Each one followed a course of his own. The result has been that 
some of the companies have done a fine job, a few of them, particu- 
larly our middle western companies; and some of the eastern com- 
panies have not awakened yet to that responsibility, or possibility. 

Mr. OsMERs. I come from way back East. I know that our insur- 
ance companies, however large or small, have no desire to own farms 
in the Middle West, because that is not their function at all. 



JQIQ INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

j\Ir, Murray. Yes. 

ISIr. OsMERS. From what yon say, they have been doino; a pretty 
poor job with their farm ownership. 

Mr. Murray. I wonld not want to say they have been doinfj a poor 
job with their farm ownership. Mr. Cono^ressman. They have been 
waking np slowly to the problem they have. The insurance com- 
missioner in the State of Iowa has helped to w-ake them up by saying 
he will not renew their licenses unless they make a satisfactory show- 
ing that thev are getting rid of these farms. That is speeding up 
the process. 

Mr. OsMERS. I think the sooner some set of rules is adopted whereby 
the farmer that has been either removed from his farm, or reduced 
to the status of a tenant farmer, will know that if he meets certain 
requirements he can move back onto the farm, let us say under some 
such arrangement as the F. H. A. where a 10 percent down payment 
is made, with amortization over a period of years — I am not neces- 
sarily saying we should adopt that particular procedure — but do you 
not feel it would go a long way toward solving the problem, if these 
people were joined together in some sort of organization and had 
a policy with respect to all of their properties, and if they could 
make that ]3olicy somewhat parallel to the Federal Government's 
policy with Federal Land Bank properties, you would actually see a 
liquidation of the problem? 

Mr. Murray. I think you would, and I think you would also help 
out this migration problem to this extent, that very many of the 
tenant farmers on these insurance-company farms have no idea when 
they are going to get a notice that they cannot remain on the farm. 
Any year they may have to move off. 

Mr. OsMERs. I think your situation in Iowa and through neighbor- 
ing States is one of the most important sources of migration of des- 
titute citizens. I think you have offered some extremely valuable tes- 
timony here, which goes to the very root of the problem. Now, are 
there at the present time any efforts being made to join these private 
agencies together and to form some sort of conference? Is there any- 
thing being clone in that direction, or is there anyone in that field who 
is assuming the problem of leadership to call them together, or their 
representatives ? 

Mr. Murray. There is a farm-mortgage conference of a number of 
insurance com]:)anies — the larger group. As I understand it, they 
have never tackled the problem and provided uniform handling, or 
developed a policy which would bring about improved conditions in 
this field. 

Mr. OsMERS. Would you say it might be advisable for all of these 
private agencies to get together and pool all of their farms together, 
set up a corporation, exchange the stock of that corporation for the 
present farm ownership in their portfolios, and then go ahead as a 
single unit to tackle and liquidate this problem? 

Mr. Murray. That might be desirable, although it would be diffi- 
cult, because these insurance companies disagree on so many things. 
The lawyers of each company will have a different slant on what they 
can or cannot do. However, we do know this: They could all get 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1011 

lofrether on a general policy and exchaiin:e information on a general 
policy and ]^robably if they came ont here and saw what some of the 
middle western companies were doin^^, they wonld come closer to 
solving our problem. 

Mr. Curtis. Let me ask one question, right at that point. 

Mr. OsMERS. Surely. 

Mr. Curtis. Would it not be a very desirable step if they adopted a 
policy of having qualified agricultural experts as their field men and 
gavethem c(Hisiderable leeway in the way of recommendations? 

Mr. Murray. Your last statement was particularly appropriate, 
the question of allowing some leeway. We have often heard the corn- 
plaint or heard the criticism that they could not build a fence until 
they wired back to New York, and by the time they got the wire to 
New York, the fence would either have to be fixed, or the cattle would 
have taken all that was left in the field. 

jSlr, Curtis. But it is true that the agricultural agent, we will call 
him, employed by the mortgage company in many instances is render- 
ing a fine service, not only to the farmer, but to his company? 

INIr. Murray. That is correct. We will go a long way in solving the 
problem if. every time they put a tenant on the farm, they put the 
tenant on the farm with the idea in the mind of the tenant that if he 
makes good, he is going to buy that farm. 

Mr. Curtis. And also supervise him and advise him as to better 
methods of farming? 

]Mr. Murray. That is correct. There are a number of our graduates, 
graduates of our institution who are doing the job. The only difficulty 
they have is, they have so many farms to manage, they cannot do very 
much. 

decreasing agricultural population 

Mr. OsMERs. I have one more question. With the increased indus- 
trialization of agricultural activities, do you feel that as a nation we are 
heading toward a smaller farm population or not? 

Mr, Murray. I would carry my answer to that through the previous 
analysis, that our population may stay the same, but we will have more 
of the subsistence part-time group getting jobs from industry during 
part of the year and doing a little farming the other part of the year, 
and fewer of the so-called family farms of the average size. They will 
grow larger, so there will be less of those, but there will be more of the 
other. 

Mr. OsMERS. But with respect to the proportion of population en- 
gaged solely in agriculture, there will be a smaller number as time goes 
on and industrialization increases? 

Mr. Murray. I would say yes. 

Mr. OsMERS. Thank you. 

Mr. Murray. I might add for the record that my recommendations 
that I have made would hardly be classed as the result of my work, 
necessarily, nor would they represent the recommendations of the 
experiment station, but would represent, rather, my own generaliza- 
tions from the data which I gathered as a representative of the experi- 
ment station. 

Mr. OsMERS. That is all I have. 



2Q]^2 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

FARM PRICES AND PRICE FIXING POLICY 

Mr. Parsons. Professor, if we had some way of bringing to the 
farmer a much higher price for his procUict, that would take people 
back to the soil, would it not ? 

Mr. Murray. Yes; it would. It might, however, if prices were too 
high result in too much scrambling to buy farms, but we see nothing 
of that kind yet. 

Mr. Parsons. There was something of that during the World War 
period when wheat was $2.25 a bushel and corn was $1.50. The bankers 
went out and went into the farming business. We had lots of agricul- 
turalists, but there were not very many experts. 

Mr. Murray. That is true. 

Mr. Parsons. Do you believe the so-called parity price is sufficient 
for farm commodities based on the 1909-13 level? 

Mr. Murray. It will make it possible for most of the farmers who 
are now equipped with machinery to meet present conditions. The 
only difficulty is, the parity price does not help the wheat farmer in 
western Iowa or in Nebraska or South Dakota. He does not have any 
crop. 

Mr. Parsons. That is right. 

Mr. Murray. It does not help to meet his fixed interest payment or 
fixed principal payment. 

Mr. Parsons. But if the parity price was increased 15 percent for 
farm commodities of the 1909-13 average, then farming would begin 
to be slightly profitable, would it not ? 

Mr. Murray. It would be very profitable for many farmers on the 
top. 

Mr. Parsons. Do you believe in trying to fix the price of farm com- 
modities ? 

Mr. Murray. That is a question that is out of my sphere, as far as 
any data I have is concerned. I would say the fixing of prices of com- 
modities is very difficult, but the present program of controlling pro- 
duction along with the semiprice fixing of the price loan which we 
make, like 57 cents a bushel on corn, is a step in advance of the old 
Farm Board plan of making a loan without any control of production. 
To set a price without any control might be fatal ; unless you had some 
kind of zoning, they would open up new areas and the market would be 
flooded with additional produce. 

Mr. Parsons. If we were so minded to adopt strict policies in this 
country as they adopt them in other places, we could regulate prices ? 

Mr. Murray. That is correct. 

Mr. Parsons. And regulate production ? 

Mr. Murray. That is right. 

Mr, Parsons. But we would be destroying what a lot of folks call 
"freedom" or "liberty" ? 

Mr. Murray. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. But the individual would be a lot better off if it were 
done in the case of agricultural production, would he not ? 

Mr. Murray. He would be. 

Mr. Parsons. He would be better off ? 



INTERSTAT^E MIGRATION 1013 

Mr. Murray. If he had higher prices, and other farmers' production 
Avas controlled ; yes. 

Mr. Parsons. But he would kick about it terribly, would he not ? 

Mr. Murray. Yes ; he would. They even kick to me. 

Mr. Parsons. The trouble with America is, it has too many liberties, 
and a little too much democracy. 

Mr. Murray. Well, we hate to give up any of it. 

Mr. Parsons. That is right. The manufacturer always controls 
his price, though, pretty well, does he not ? 

Mr. Murray. He controls his price, but he does not take care of his 
unemployment problem. 

Mr. Parsons. All the automobiles run in certain classes, with three 
big concerns. Their prices are always set. If they manufactured 
three times as many automobiles as the country nedecl, you could buy 
a Ford for $150? 

Mr. Murray. That is right. That would take care of the unem- 
ployment problem. But they prefer to leave the unemployment prob- 
lem to make a problem such as your committee is faced with today. 

Mr. Parsons. Practically all commercial prices are set and main- 
tained from one year to another, but not with agriculture. That is 
what is the matter with agriculture. We could put people back to 
the farms if it was profitable. 

Mr. OsMERS. I think one reason — I would like to ask Mr. Murray's 
opinion on this — I think in your manufacturing operations you find 
a great many more factors present than you do in farming. In farm- 
ing you have fewer costs, principally taxes and labor, while in the 
manufacturing operations in addition to much higher taxes and an 
entirely different labor set-up, you have other factors such as distribu- 
tion, sales expense, overhead, clerical help, stockholders, and a great 
many other things to consider, and, of course, the purchase of raw 
materials. 

What is your opinion with reference to that. Professor Murray? 

Mr. Murray. I look at it this way: The industrial problem is 
largely what you suggest, with unemployment as its big problem. 
Agriculture has as its big problem not unemployment, because every 
farmer who has a farm, or is a tenant, has a job, but the price problem. 

Mr. Parsons. Whereas industry does not have the price problem, 
but it does have the unemployment problem and distribution problem? 

Mr. Murray. It is principally a problem of distribution. If they 
cannot get distribution, they cannot employ their men. 

Mr. Parsons. If we had higher than parity price for agricultural 
commodities, that in itself would raise the earning power of the farm 
population, and they would buy a lot more things from the city. 

Mr. Murray. If you could have high prices for farm products 
and low prices for everything else, it would be fine for the farmer. 

Mr. Curtis. Let the record show that I support both theories. 

Mr. Sparkman. It would not do any good to authorize parity pay- 
ments unless we raised the money to pay them, would it ? 

Mr. MuTiRAY. That is correct. It has to come from some place. 



1014 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

FARM PRODUCTION IN RELATION TO PRICES 

Mr. OsMERs. While we are spending a moment here on broad poli- 
cies, do you believe in the so-called policy of controlled production, 
what has been referred to as the policy of scarcity, or do you believe 
in wider production and greater consumption at lower prices? 

Mr. Murray. I subscribe to the last view if we can provide for that 
without having problems such as unemployment and otiier things 
which w^ould mean that the Government would have to step in. The 
difficulty is, we have depressions as a result of allowing uncontrolled 
production. What we have to say is that since we cannot allow 
things to go on without regulation, we cannot step out here and say 
we are going to help prices in any industry unless we have, not 
scarcity, but controlled production. If we raise the price of corn or 
the price of wheat, we must keep from having other people produce 
such a terrific surplus that it just rots, and the surplus rots on our 
hands. 

Mr. OsMERS. Certainly we have found in the United States, that 
during periods of our greatest production — let us take agricultural 
commodities, because we are dealing with that for the moment — we 
have had more starvation and more substandard eating conditions in 
the United States than at any other time in our history? 

Mr. Murray. That has partly been responsible because of the dis- 
tribution. I think the food stamp plan which has come in has been 
an effort to meet that criticism. We have got the food, and we have 
got the people who need it. 

Mr. OsMERS. I really think the Government should lend itself to 
some plan, instead of destroying and controlling this great agri- 
cultural surplus, when people are — I will not say starving, but great- 
ly in need; some system should be developed. The food stamp plan 
has its good points and its bad points. It is a step in the right di- 
rection. Of course, people engaged in industrial activities feel that 
their great future lies in producing more and more through better 
methods at lower prices and with increased wages, and it has always 
been worked that way. 

Mr. Murray. We feel the same is true in agriculture, but we feel 
this way : Until we can get a situation that will make that profitable, 
in the interim, this price raising and control was necessarj^ 

EFFECT OF FOREIGN TRADE POLICY OK FARMERS 

Mr. OsMERS. Just one more question along that line: What has 
been the effect of the foreign trade policy of this country upon the 
farmers of Iowa? 

Mr. Murray. The foreign trade policy? 

Mr. OsMERS. Yes; reciprocal trade policies with other nations with 
respect to agricultural commodities. 

Mr. MuFRAY. It has helped a small amount. We are definitely 
interested in foreign trade, because we produce lots of lard. We 
would like to see more trade, because it means that we will have 
better prices for hogs, our principal means of income. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1015 

Mr. OsMERS. Has any specific trade airreement tliat has been entered 
into by this Government aided the exporting of agricukural products 
from the State of Iowa i 

Mr. Murray. I believe it has. I believe there was an agreement with 
Cuba — I am not sure of this — but there was a re})ort prepared by the 
Farm Bureau Federation, to which Dr. Schultz in our department 
contributed, and the conclusion was it had helj:)ed a small amount. 

Mr. OsMERS. You produce some corn in Iowa, do you not ? 

Mr. Murray. That is correct. 

Mr. OsMERS. I could cite an instance where one of these agreements, 
namely, the one with the Netherlands, will allow the importation of 
the sago root on the free list, which has caused considerable misery 
to the corn farmers of Iowa, It has permitted an increase in the im- 
portation of that product from 2,000,000 pounds a year at the begin- 
ning of the program to 450,000,000 pounds a year at the present time. 
That will not do the Iowa farmer much good. 

Mr. Murray. That is correct, although we feel this way : We cannot 
look at one phase of the reciprocal-trade agreement. We have to look 
at getting our lard out, and sometimes to get our lard out, we have to 
give a little some other place. We cannot always increase our selling, 
unless there is some increase in our buying. We do not want to have 
it hit us. of course. 

Mr. OsMERS. There is a lot to be said for reciprocal trade. Recipro- 
cal trade is like good weather. It is a fine thing. It has seemed that 
the total net effect of the reciprocal-trade policy has been to allow for 
the importation of greater quantities of agricultural commodities and 
the exportation of an increasing volume of manufacured goods such 
as automobiles, taking them as one example. 

Mr. Murray. I would not be able to comment on that. I really 
Avould not be able to comment very much on that. 

Mr. OsMERS. The figures speak for tliemselves. 

Mr. Murray. I can see your point. There is a problem there. 

Mr. Parsons. The importation of farm commodities into the United 
States is such a tiny portion of the total consumption, that after all 
it does not amount to a great deal. Our clomesic trade is from 88 to 92 
percent of the total, but it is that 6- to 12-percent export from which 
we really get the net profit from other people brought to the United 
States converted into dollars, out of the soil and out of the mines and 
out of the air. 

Those three things form the basis for everything we have. It is 
from that top part, that last 6 percent that we export, that we really 
make a profit for the American people. Now, the importation of a 
few commodities is such t\ small, tiny fraction of the total consumption 
in the United States, that while it looks large when it is enumerated 
in pounds or bushels, when it comes to the total consumption, it 
amounts to practically nothing. Are there any other questions? 

Mr. Curtis. Mr. Murray, I think you have made a very valuable 
contribution. I would not feel discouraged if I were you, because you 
cannot get this committee to agree on tariff and reciprocal-trade 
agreements. I will extend my speech in the record. 

Mr. Parson. Is there anything further? 

260370—40 — pt. 3 14 



1016 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



Mr. Sparkman. I do not want to enter into any discussion of 
reciprocal-trade agreements which, I believe, both Presidential can- 
didates have endorsed. I do want to ask one question, as far as the 
farm-migrant problem is concerned, and that is what we are particu- 
larly concerned with. Your \vhole argument is that the proper relief is 
to give as many as possible a land tenure that will root them to the 
soil; is that correct? 

Mr. Murray. Yes ; either through long lease or ownershi]) ; you are 
right. 

.Mr. Sparkman. Some interest in the soil that will hold them there? 

Mr. Murray. That is correct. 

Mr. Sparkman. Thank you. 

Mr. Parsons. Thank you very much, Mr. Murray. 

(Wliereupon, Mr. Murray was excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF JOHN HART AND ANNA HART 

Mr. Parsons. The next witnesses will be Mr. and Mrs. Hart. Will 
you state your full name and address for the record, please, Mr. Hart. 

Mr. Hart. John Hart, Whiteland, Ind., Rural Route 1. 

Mr. Parsons. State your name for the record, please, and your 
address, Mrs. Hart. 

Mrs. Hart. Anna Hart, Rural Route 1. Whiteland, Ind. 

Mr. Parsons. How long have you been in Indiana? 

Mr. Hart. Off and on for 15 years. 

Mr. Parsons. Where were you born? 

Mr. Hart. Zanesville, Ohio. 

Mr. Parsons. Wliere were vou born, Mrs. Hart? 

Mrs. Hart. Philadelphia, Pa. 

Mr. Parsons. From the record we have here, it is my understanding 
you started migrating some 10 or 12 years ago ? 

Mr. Hart. That is right. 

Mr. Parsons. Where have you been ? In what States have you been ? 
Just tell the story of your life, the last of 10 or 11 years since you have 
been migrating. 

Mr. Hart. Well, we were farming in Bourbon, Ind. We lost the 
farm through the poor onion crop and Jew prices. We had $2,400 to 
pay, as the balance, and we couldn't pay it, so we lost the farm. 

Mr. Parsons. That was when — 11 or 12 years ago? 

Mr. Hart. Eleven years ago. 

Mr. Parsons. How large a farm was it? 

Mr. Hart. Around 40 acres. 

Mr. Parsons. Who held the mortgage? 

Mr. Hart. Jim Macknich. 

Mr. Parsons. He was the local banker? 

Mr. Hart. That is correct. 

Mr. Parsons. The price of onions, of course, was very low ? 

Mr. Hart. The price of onions dropped from $2.50 a hundred to 
75 cents per hundred. It didn't pay the labor on the onions at all. 

Mr. Parsons. Then you left that place? 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1017 

Mr. Hart. Then we left that place, and we started running around, 
trvins to find work. We went to Ohio and West Virginia. We was 
selling post cards, needles, and stuff like that to make a living, all over 
the country. 

Mr. Parsons, Yes. 

Mr. Hart. We came to Illinois. T got 2 or 3 weeks down here at the 
mill. Then they shut down. They throwed us out again. 

Mr. Parsons. I understand you were in Ohio. 

I\Ir. Hart. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. What region were you in there ? Tell us of your expe- 
riences there. 

EXPERIENCE AS SHARE-CROPPER ON CORPORATE FARM IN OHIO 

Mr. Hart. That was the Ohio Farms Co., Willard, Ohio. We were 
there. She found a piece in the newspaper when we were on the 
road. They wanted to sell farms. Half of the year's crop was to 
go to you, and the other half was to go to the company, the Ohio 
Farms Co. 

Mr. Parsons. For furnishing everything? 

Mr. Hart. For furnishing everything. They furnished a little 
four-room house, kind of a chicken-coop-like affair, only it was new. 
They furnished grub, up until the crop was ready to harvest. When 
the crop was ready to harvest, they shut down the commissary. They 
shut down everything, all over the country, so you couldn't get noth- 
ing to eat. so they could take the farm away from you. There was 
77 families on the farm at the time. She and me had the only car 
that was in running order. They were putting all the rest of them 
on the bum. She went out abegging milk for the babies and food for 
them. 

I went to Frank Britton, general manager of the farm. He was field 
manager. I told him I was going to take my stuff out of there and 
sell it, because they was stealing it. 

Mr, Parsons, Who was stealing it? 

Mr, Hart, I don't know. It was somebody the company had. We 
couldn't catch them. We had to do guard duty at night to keep them 
out of our onions. We would harvest 20 or 25 bushels a day. We 
would stack them up in crates, and we would go over there the next 
morning and they would be gone. We had a big search on the farm, 
trying to find out who did it, but we couldn't. We finally had to take 
these onions and hide them from the men on the farm. Then we had 
to do guard duty with shotguns. That stopped them. 

They shut down the commissary, and then they unscrewed the pumps, 
the top of the pumps, so we couldn't get no Avater, They was trying to 
starve us out, so they could get our crop. I told Britton, "You put them 
pumps back," He wouldn't do it. We got the crowd together and told 
them what they was doing to us. They tacked a receivership, a friendly 
receivership, on each and every one of them little houses and forbid the 
people to go out in their own land and harvest the crop. 

I said they would have to give us our rights or we would have them 
arrested. They wouldn't, so I goes to Norwalk, Ohio, and files suit, 
me and two of the other boys. They brought Arthur A, Willoughby. 



]^Q]^§ INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

They had him arrested and broiijyht him over to court. When Arthur 
A. Willoug:hby got up there, he di(hi"t waiit to go through court. 
Judge Carpenter said Willoughby Avas ready to square up with us, 
with the three of us, and give us our rights. 

Then they sent a bunch of niggers down in there to ])ick my beans. I 
had to take a shotgun and threaten to shoot them, to keep them out of 
tlie beans. We were picking them beans to take them to market. They 
came in there and started to pick the beans. They stole everything 
from everybody on the farm, but us three fellows. The law gave us 
tlie right to harvest our crop, our half, and we took it over to Cincin- 
nati, Ohio — I mean Cleveland, Ohio, to sell it. 

Mr. Parsons. After that experience, you did not stay with them but 
the 1 year ? 

Mr. Hart. That is all, 1 year. We stayed there until March. During 
the time we stayed there, we got enough money out of our crop to carry 
us through until March. The county man there that had the poor 
farm, named Clay, he turns around, and he w^ouldn't feed nobody. He 
wouldn't give nobody nothing to eat. There they all was, children 
being wrapped up in coffee sacks — using coffee sacks for clothes. There 
were 77 families. She went out with our car and begged milk and food 
among the farmers, to feed the children. 

Mr. Parsons. How many children did you have ? 

Mr. Hart. I have my two children. It went on like that. They 
threatened to kill us if we didn't leave, but we stayed. One night they 
came up, two or three of them guys came up. I happened to be out get- 
ting some tobacco 

Mrs. Hart. I believe I would like to tell that part of it, John. 

Mr. Hart. All right. 

Mrs. Hart. I believe I know that better than 3'ou do. 

Mr. Hart. Go ahead. 

Mr. Parsons. You may proceed. We will be glad to have you tell it. 

]Mrs. Hart. John had never gone away from home after dark. This 
niglit he ran out of cigarettes. He said he was going out somewhere 
on the farm and find a cigarette. About 8 : 30 that night Mrs. Britton, 
the field manager's wife, came upstairs with their young baby to visit 
with me. We lived in the upper flat, and they lived downstairs. 

Frank Britton had taken a liking to us and had told us to take 
his upper flat, you know, off of the marshes, in the fall. He said 
that he was supposed to take over the place, Mr. Willoughby's place, 
in the spring and he would put John in Frank Britton's place as field 
manager, because he had done all the planning and supervising and 
understood the work. 

kShe came upstairs. She was kind of nervous. I said, "What is 
the matter w'ith you tonight?" She said, "Well, I am going to tell 
you. They are coming here to murder you people ttmight." "Well," 
I said, "I have begged for these people and fed these people, and 
have begged clothing for them. What do they want to nuirder 
us for?" 

Well, there was two or three men on the place. It seems like 
there was two factions in the company, one working against the 
other. Frank Britton had a lot of money coming from the com- 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1019 

pai\y. He wanted to keep on the good side of the men, yet he was 
working under cover for the company. He was keeping on the 
good side of both sides. When the men were hungry, and came 
and demanded food, he made excuses that he lost the keys and 
couldn't find the truck license to take the truck out and get some 
wood, to keep them warm. He made all kinds of excuses. 

Mr. Parsons. Did they come that night? 

Mrs. Hart. Yes. I heard singing, and it sounded like a couple 
of men that had been drinking. I said, '"They're not coming 
up liere." She said, "Yes. they are." The front apartment down- 
stairs was empty. There was a glass window about so large [indi- 
cating]. Then we come through the front room, and through to the 
stairs. He had put a glass door at the top for more privacy. They 
broke the glass out of the door downstairs, reached in, and turned 
the key and came through there. 

Mr. OsMERs. How many were there? 

]Mrs. Hart. Two of them. I still didn't believe they were com- 
ing up there, but when I heard them start, someone in the dark, 
up the steps at the bottom of the steps, I realized she knew what 
she was talking about. Otherwise, they never had been up there 
before. 

I took our little girl, and it just happened that I went into a 
little closet, so that when they broke the door open at the top of 
the stairs and pushed that door back, that door shielded us and 
protected us going into the cupboard behind that door. Mrs. Britton 
grabbed her baby and ran in the back bedroom and got behind the 
door. These men stood within arm's reach of me. They broke 
the glass out of the top door, too, and broke the lock. I could 
have reached out of that hole in the glass and totiched both of 
them. They stood there, and I heard one of them say, "Thej'^ must be 
sleeping. Don't make any more noise. We'll wake them up. If 
we can get rid of them we will hide them, and we will lay here 
and wait for him to come. Nobody will know the difference, but 
what they all pulled out in the night." 

Well. I had my daughter's head against my heart, and had to 
hold with all my strength to keep her teeth from chattering, she 
was that scared, and I was scared, too. Frank Britton's mother- 
in-law came to the bottom of the stairs then, and she says, "Boys, 
come down out of there. The Harts aren't home. Come on down 
and go on home and wait until they come back." 

Mr. Parsons. Who was it that said that ? 

Mrs. Hart. Frank Britton's mother-in-law. 

Mr. Parsons. I see. 

Mrs. Hart. Hisi wife's mother. 

Mr. Parsons. I see. 

Mrs. Hart. They came downstairs after a little coaxing. I heard 
them go in his flat downstairs. I grabbed my daughter by the hand 
and rushed out to the marsh to find him. It was just beginning to rain. 
I ran down two or three houses near there. It was pretty dark in the 
marsh, and I cotildn't find him in there. I talked to several people I 



1Q20 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

knew, but I couldn't find him, I started back and made a circle of thft 
house. I was afraid to go in the front way, see ? They were all in the 
kitchen in the back. There was no shades or curtains. I could see 
where they were all congregated. I thought I would go around the 
back way until they had gone away, or until they came to warn him. but 
I passed along, and at the next place there was two Mexican boys who 
had done chores around there for the different men. I heard him kind 
of "'huh-huh-huh-huh," like he has a habit of doing and I recognized. 
1 opened the door and told them what the}^ had said and done. We had 
no protection. We didn't have a gun or anything like that. 

Mr. Parsons. Did they come back and molest you further after 
that? 

Mrs. Hart. Yes. 

Mr. Hart. Yes. 

Mrs. Hart. We went home, and just as we got to the end of the house, 
they were coming down the road. They were coming back. They 
hollered back and told Frank Britton that they would come back later. 
We went in, and John told Frank Britton — he said : "Frank, you had 
better tell your friends not to come back here tonight. Whoever the 
company officials of this place is that wants me out of here, are going 
to be badly fooled, because we have got our daughter in school on this 
place, and we aren't going to leave here until spring, until school is out." 

He said, "I didn't have anything to do with it." John says: "I 
simply made a statement. I mean what I say. It is going to be too 
bad for them. I am going to protect my family." We went upstairs, 
and there was no lock on the door then. You see, the only thing we 
had, we had a wood stove there, that we used for cooking and heating. 
He i^icked two clubs up, about that big around [indicating] and that 
long [indicating] . They had knots on them. He whittled them down, 
you know, each club. He laid one on one end of the room — it was a 
long room, across the end of the house upstairs — and one on the other 
end. He said "You two stay over there and don't move." 

One stumbled up the steps and hollered, "Hey, Hart, are you home?" 
John said, "Yes. What do you want?" Both of the men's name was 
Cole, but the}" weren't no relation. 

Mr. Hart. They weren't no relation. 

Mrs. Hart. "Well," he said, "I have got orders to kill you oflF, to- 
night." John says : "Well, now, listen. You are drunk tonight, and 
in the morning you are going to be sorry for this. You go on home 
and get to bed. You are a young man, and engaged to be married 
soon. You ought to be ashamed of yourself." "Ho," he said, "I have 
got orders to kill you tonight." 

His partner at the bottom of the steps told him — he says, "Go ahead, 
Johnnie. Get him cornered. I am coming." Then the young fellow 
got him by the front of his clothes and kept pushing him back into 
our house. He finally got him back into the front room. John 
realized he was being ganged. There was only one thing he could do to 
protect himself. They finally was back to the corner where he had 
that club. The one that gi-abbed John pretty hard on the front of the 
clothes hollered, "Come on. I have got him cornered." Then John 
reached and got him by the front and reached back and got his club 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1021 

and gave him a couple of whacks beside the head. He says, "I'll go 
down now." John says, "You'll go down when I send you down." 
He dragged him to the top of the stairs and kicked him down the steps. 

The other fellow who came up, he says, "I can finish him off if you 
can't." He reached down into his pocket and pulled out a long knife, 
like Mexicans carry. John said, "Jesse, if you come into my house, 
I will try my level best to kill you. Don't come in here." He did come 
in there. He came in there and started wrestling with John. John 
reall}^ started to work on him in earnest. He took him to the top 
of the steps and gave him a couple of good bats on the head, and I 
guarantee you whenever he goes to comb his hair and looks in the 
glass, he will remember it. He kicked him downstairs and he laid 
there as dead. 

They started the Kentucky war whoop downstairs, meaning that 
he was dead. At 4 o'clock in the morning, daylight, I walked 4 miles 
to Willard, Ohio, and reported it to the police, that they had broken 
into our house. They came down and saw the mess. In the meantime 
someone had taken the two men out in the marsh and hidden them. 
The authorities at Willard had motorcyle police out for 10 days and 
nights looking for them on motorcycles with floodlights, and they 
couldn't find them. 

It finally got so cold, and their heads became so badly infected, that 
they had to have medical attention, and they came out on the highway 
and gave themselves up. 

Mr. Parsons. Did the authorities there do anything with them for 
breaking into your home ? 

Mrs. Hart. The authorities bound them over to the grand jury after 
the trial was over. 

Mr. Hart. They had a trial. 

Mrs. Hart. The mother and father of the young lad and the in- 
tended wife and the other man's seven or eight children came and 
cried and begged us, saying that the men had had enough punishment, 
and it would make it so hard on the families. They begged us not 
to press the charges. They said they were sure they had been cured 
of breaking in any man's house again. 

Feeling that maybe they were right, and not wanting to make hard- 
ships on their families, we agreed we wouldn't appear against them 
when the grand jury was called. 

Mr. Parsons. How long ago was that ? 

Mr. Hart. 1930 or 1931. 

Mrs. Hart. We went there in May, May 10, 1930, and left there the 
next spring, in March. 

Mr. Parsons. That would be 1931 ? 

Mrs. Hart. 1931. 

Mr. Parsons. Where did you go from there ? 

Mr. Hart. From there we started back and went up to Chicago 
Heights, 111. I got 4 or 5 more weeks' work in a glasshouse. I got a 
chance in my trade. I worked maybe 4 or 5 weeks. They work you 
4 or 5 weeks on a job the machine can't do, and then they put the 
machine back to work and throw you out. 

Mr. Parsons. That was in 1932? 



JQ22 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. Hart. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. When did you go to Indiana ? 

Mr. Hart. We went down to Ohio, but the place we had there, the 
water came in. There was floods, and you coulcLn't make nothing there. 
The water came in and took both crops. The water came in and took 
everything, and we had to get out of there. 

Then we come back to Indiana, over to Mahoneysville. I paid $150 
down on a little place over there. 

IVIrs. Hart. He got that out of the soldiers' bonus. 

Mr. Hart. I got that out of the soldiers' bonus. The Indian Creek 
came in and took that. Then I came up to Johnson County to work in 
the tomato fields, and we have this place we are on now. 

Mr. Parsons. Is that in or near Johnson County ? 

Mrs. Hart. In Johnson County. 

Mr. Hart. In Johnson County. 

Mr. Parsons. Are you in the tomato business ? 

Mr. Hart. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. The growing of tomatoes? 

Mr. Hart. Yes ; we picked tomatoes up there, and finally we rented 
a 40-acre farm. The Farm Security have backed us. 

Mr. Parsons. How much did they loan you ? 

Mr. Hart. Nine hundred and some dollars. 

Mr. Parsons. How much did you pay for the farm originally ? 

Mrs. Hart. We rented it. 

Mr. Hart. We didn't buy it. We are renting. 

Mr. Parsons. You are renting the farm now? 

Mr. Hart. Yes ; we are renting it. 

Mrs. Hart. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. On a fifty-fifty basis ? 

Mr. Hart. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. They furnish you everything? 

Mr. Hart. No. We furnish everything. 

Mr. Parsons. You furnish everything? 

jNIr, Hart. We furnish stock, tools, and everything. 

Mr. Parsons. You only get half of the tomato crop ? 

Mr. Hart. They pay for half of the labor and we pay for the 
other half. After what the canning factory steals, and what they 
grade down on us, we don't have nothing left. They offer you $18 
a ton for tomatoes when you put them in the ground, but when you 
haul the tomatoes over to Stokely Bros., they give you $6.50 or $7 a 
ton for them. They tell you they ai-e No. 3's, or culls, or something. 

Mrs. Hart. But still they use those same tomatoes in the same 
tank in which they use the No. I's. 

Mr. Hart. They use every excuse they can think up to rob you. 

Mr. Parsons. How much money do you think you made, ctr do 
you think you have coming in, from the tomato crop last year? 

Mr. Hart. On 15 acres of tomatoes we made $350. I got $150. 

Mr. Parsons. What do you raise on the other acreage? 

Mr. Hart. Corn and some vegetables. 

Mr. Parsons. Do you market any vegetables locally ? 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1023 

Mv. Hart. We try to market some over at Indianapolis, but you 
can't make enough over there. We take cabbage over there. We 
haul it 20 miles and pay a dollar to get in on the market. It costs 
you supper and breakfast and you have to stay all night, and still 
they won't give you but 20 cents a bushel for the cabbage, and they 
charge a dime for 3 pounds on the street. That is what the peddlers 
charge, and the storekeepers. They charge the same thing. 

Mr. Parsons. You say the Farm Security Administration loaned 
you $900 ? 

jMi". Hart. Yes. 

Mrs. Hart. To buy stock and pigs. 

Mr. Parsons. Have you been able to meet the payments on that ? 

Mr. Hart, We paid the payments the first year in full. The sec- 
ond year we fell down a little bit. We didn't have the money. The 
canning factory took our whole crop. 

]Mr. Parsons. You have a tomato crop again this year I assume. 

Mr. Hart. Nine acres. 

Mr. Parsons. Have you started picking? 

Mr. Hart. We have started picking; yes. 

Mr. Parsons. How is the price of tomatoes this year ? 

Mr. Hart. The price of tomatoes is $12 a ton. 

Mr. Parsons. Is that kind of a medii\in price ? 

Mr. Hart. That is better than average. 

Mrs. Hart. The price is all right. 

Mr. Hart. The price is all right, but they grade you down in grad- 
ing tomatoes, and they don't give you nothing. On sweet corn you 
have gor to have select sweet corn or they won't take it. 

Mr. Parsons. You still have the hope of being able to survive on 
this place, though? 

Mrs. Hart. No. 

Mr. Hart. My place is too small. The Government has done all 
they can for us on that farm, but it is too small. We need more land. 
We have gone as far as we can go. We have too much stock for the 
place now. It is increasing. We could live there. We can eat, but 
can't go any further now. 

Just like I said : You take cabbage to Indianapolis, and they buy 
it for 20 cents a bushel. The peddler sells it for $1.30, when he only 
invests 20 cents in a bushel of cabbage. If I could get $1.30 a bushel 
for cabbage, I could buy that farm and pay it out in 2 years. 

Mr. Parsons. Do you grow sweet corn for the market? 

Mr. Hart. I grow sweet corn for the market and the canning factory. 

Mr. Parsons. So you really farm the entire 40 acres ? 

Mr. Hart. Every bit of it. On hay, the boy goes out and makes it 
on shares. He makes 50 loads, to get 10 loads. 

Mr. Parsons. On someone else's land ? 

Mr. Hart. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. Are there any other questions, gentlemen? (No re- 
sponse. ) Thank you very much, Mr. and Mrs. Hart. We are very glad 
you came. You have had some rather unusual experiences, but no 
doubt there are many, many people on the road who have had at least 
some experiences similar to those you have had. 

(Whereupon Mr. and Mrs. Hart were excused.) 



JQ24 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. Parsons. The committee will stand adjourned until 2 p. m. 
( Wliereupon, at 1 p. m., a recess was taken until 2 p. m. of the same 
day.) 

AFTERNOON SESSION 

(The hearing was reconvened at 2 p. m.) 

TESTIMONY OF SILAS LOWDEN 

Mr. Parsons. The committee will please come to order. The next 
witness will be Silas Lowden. State your name and address for the 
record, please, Mr. Lowden. 

Mr. Lowden. Silas Lowden, 2936 Prairie. 

Mr. Parsons. Congressman Curtis will question you. 

Mr. Curtis. How old are you ? 

Mr. Lowden. Twenty-three. 

Mr. Curtis. Where were you born ? 

Mr. Lowden. Memphis, Tenn. 

Mr. Curtis. Are you married ? 

Mr. Lowden. Single. 

Mr. Curtis. Do you have relatives living in Tennessee ? 

Mr. Lowden. No. 

Mr. Curtis. Your mother and your father — are they living? 

Mr. Lowden. They are dead. 

Mr. Curtis. How long have they been dead ? 

Mr. Lowden. My mother died when I was 3 weeks old and my 
father died in 1924. 

Mr. Curtis. Have you any brothers and sisters? 

Mr. Lowden. No. 

Mr. Curtis. How much schooling have you had ? 

Mr. Lowden. First grade, 

Mr. Curtis. First grade? 

Mr. Lowden. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Where did you go to school ? 

Mr. Lowden. I went to school in Mississippi, and went to school in 
Memphis, Tenn. 

Mr. Curtis. How long did you live in Tennessee ? 

Mr. Lowden. Well, I couldn't exactly tell. 

Mr. Curtis. How old were you when you went away ? 

Mr. Lowden. I think about 18. 

Mr. Curtis. About 18? 

Mr. Lowden. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Then where did you go ? 

Mr. Lowden. I came to move out of Memphis, but I was still in 
Tennessee. I went to Cableville, Tenn. 

Mr. Curtis. Where did you go from there? 

Mr. Lowden. When I left there, that was in 1937. I came here. 

Mr. Curtis. You have not lived in Mississippi very much ? 

Mr. Lowden. No, sir ; not very much. 

Mr. Curtis. Who raised you after your mother died? 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1025 

Mr. LowDEN. My uncle raised me up until I left home. Wlien I left 
home, then I went to live with my fjochnother, and she died. 

Mr. Curtis. How old were you when you left your uncle? 

Mr. LowDEN. I couldn't exactly say. I left him in 1926. 

Mr. Curtis. Where did your godmother live? 

Mr. LowDEN. In Memphis. 

Mr. Curtis. How long were you with her? 

Mr. LowDEN. I was with her from 1926 until — well, anyway she 
died in 1928. 

Mr. Curtis. After she died, Silas, then you went out on your own ? 

Mr. LowDEN. Then I went out on my own. 

Mr. Curtis. What work do you know how to do ? 

Mr. LowDEN. I can cook and wait on table ; work as a porter. 

Mr. Curtis. Have you had any jobs cooking in public eating places? 

Mr. LowDEN. Not here, but in Tennessee. 

Mr. Curtis. Was it a hotel or restaurant? 

Mr. LowDEN. A restaurant. 

Mr. Curtis. How large a restaurant was that ? 

Mr. LowDEN. Well, it was pretty good sized. I would say it was 
half as large as this place here, this room. 

Mr. Curtis. How many cooks did they have in the kitchen? 

Mr. Low^DEN. Just only me. 

Mr. Curtis. You w^ere the chief cook? 

Mr. LoAVDEN. Yes. I would go to work at 7 o'clock in the morning 
and quit at 11 at night. 

Mr. Curtis. What did they pay you? 

Mr. LowDEN. $7 a week. 

Mr. Curtis. And your board ? 

Mr. LowDEN. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. But you did not get any room? 

Mr. LowDEN. No. 

Mr. Curtis. Were you able to find work all the time down there in 
Tennessee ? 

Mr. LowDEN. Well, sometimes I would and sometimes I wouldn't. 

Mr. Curtis. Were you unemployed for any great length of time each 
year ? 

Mr. LowDEN. No; not a great length of time. 

Mr. Curtis. Did you make enough money so you could live on it 
without going on relief? 

Mr. LowDEN. I darned near did, a little bit. but as it was, I could 
make it without getting relief. 

Mr. Curtis. Did you have any relief when you were down in Ten- 
nessee ? 

Mr. LowDEN. No relief at all. 

Mr. Curtis. When did you come up to Chicago ? 

Mr. LowDEN. 1937. 

Mr. Curtis. Do you remember what month of the year it was? 

Mr. LowDEN, It was 1937, Christmas. 

Mr. Curtis. Christmas Day? 

Mr. LowDEN. Yes ; when I came here. 



1026 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. Curtis. So j^ou have been liere in 1938, 1939, and this far in 
1940? 

Mr. LowDEN. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis, Did you know anyone in Chicago when you came? 

Mr. LowDEN. Yes. I had some friends here. 

Mr. Curtis. Some bo3"s you knew back home that had come up to 
Chicago ? 

Mr. LowDEN. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Did any of them write and tell you to come ? 

Mr. LowDEN. No. I came myself. 

Mr. Curtis. Did you have their addresses when you came? 

Mr. LowDEN. Yes. I had their addresses when I came. 

Mr. Curtis. Did they have work? 

Mr. LowDEN. No. They weren't working when I got up here. 

Mr. Curtis. Have you been able to get any work in Chicago? 

Mr. LowDEN. Not worth anything, tfust a job here and a job there. 
That is all I have been able to do. 

Mr. Curtis. How long would these jobs last ? 

Mr. LowDEN. I would probably get one that would last 3 weeks. 
Maybe the next one would last a month and like that. 

Mr. Curtis. "What kind of work was that ? 

Mr. LowDEX. Well, one time I was working at — well, I might call 
it a junk shop. 

Mr. Curtis. A junk shop of old cars? 

Mr. LowDEN. No; where they keep paint and stuff — rags and stuff 
like that. 

Mr. Curtis. Where they keep what? 

Mr. LowDEN. Paper, rags, and thinks like that. 

Mr. Curtis. Oh, yes. 

Mr. LowDEX. Then I left there and started working with a decorator. 

Mr. Curtis. What kind of a decorator, painter and paperhanger ? 

Mr. LowDEx. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. A colored boy or white ? 

Mr. LowDEN. Colored. 

Mr. Curtis. How long did you work with this decorator? 

Mr. LowDEX. I worked with him quite a while. In fact, I worked 
with him until about a month ago, 

Mr, Curtis, What did he pay you? 

Mr, LowDEX. Well, he paid me — for three walls he paid me $1,50. 

Mr. Curtis. $1.50 for three walls? 

Mr. LowDEX. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. How much could you make a week doing that work? 

Mr. LowDEX", A week? 

Mr. Curtis. Yes. 

Mr. LowDEX'. I could make around $15 or $20 a week. 

Mr. Curtis. Out of the little over two and a half years you have 
been here, have you had work half of the time, do you think? 

Mr. LowDEx^ No. I have not had work half of the time. 

Mr. Curtis. Why did you leave down South where you were getting 
your food and some wages ? 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1027 

Mr. LowDEN. Well, I just got tired of it all down there and decided 
I would come here; and from now on. if I get tired. I will probably 
go some other place. 

Mr. Curtis. Had you heard about higher wages in the northern 
cities t 

Mr. LowDEX. Yes. I heard about that. 

Mr. Curtis. You wanted to come up and try it? 

Mr. LowDEx. That is right. 

Mr. Curtis. Have you ever been broke and without money or food 
since you got to Chicago ? 

Mr. LowDEX. I have been without money, but I haven't been with- 
out food. 

Mr. Curtis. You stayed with some friends when you were broke? 

Mr. LowDEx. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Have you tried to go on relief ? 

Mr. LowDEx. I tried to go on relief; yes. 

Mr. Curtis. What success did you have? 

Mr. LowDEN. I didn't have no success at all. I couldn't get on. 

Mr. Curtis. What did they say was the reason ? 

Mr. LowDEX. They said I hadn't been here long enough at the 
time. 

Mr. Curtis. You are supposed to be here 3 years, are you not ? 

Mr. LowDEX. Three years. 

Mr. Curtis. Have you worked with unj employment agency or any 
organization tiying to get a job? 

Mr. LowDEx. The Urban League. 

Mr. Curtis. The Urban League? 

Mr. LowDEx. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. They have been trying to help you find something? 

Mr. LowDEX. Yes. 

Mr. Parsoxs. Is that a colored employment agency? 

Mr. Lov>DEx. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Have you ever been fired from any job because you 
did not do your work? 

Mr. LowDEX. No. I haven't never been fired. 

Mr. CxTRTis. When you did get some monej^, what did vou spend it 
for? 

Mr. LowDEX. I bought clothes, and spent it for what I needed. 

Mr. Curtis. Did you ever need much liquor? 

Mr. LowDEX. I don't drink at all. 

Mr. Curtis. That is fine. There are just more people hunting work 
than there are jobs, is that not so? 

Mr. LowDEX. You are mighty right. 

Mr. Curtis. How did you come up from Tennessee ? Did you come 
on a train? 

Mr. LowDEN. On a bus. 

Mr. Curtis. Did you pay your fare? 

Mr. LowDEX. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. How much money did you have when you arrived ? 

Mr. LowDEX. $40. 



]^Q28 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. CuKTis. If you do not find work here, what are you going 
to do? 

Mr. LowDEN. I don't know. I feel if I live and get something to 
eat, I am going to find a job here some day. if I keep my health and 
strength, maybe, 

Mr. Curtis. If yon do not find one here, wliat are you going to do ? 

Mr. LowDEX. I will go somewhere else. 

Mr. CuETis. I think that is all. 

Mr. Parsons. Thank you very much. 

(Whereupon Silas Lowden was excused.) 

TESTIMONY OP W. A. ROWLANDS, DISTRICT EXTENSION LEADER, 
PROFESSOR OF LAND ECONOMICS, UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN; 
AND M. W, TORKELSON, SECRETARY AND EXECUTIVE OFFICER 
OF THE WISCONSIN STATE PLANNING BOARD 

Mr, Parsons. Mr. Kowlands. will you give your name and address 
and your official position to the reporter? 

Professor Rowlands. W. A. Rowlands, University of Wisconsin, 
district extension leader, professor of land economics. 

Mr. Parsons. Mr. Torkelson, will you give your name, address, and 
official position to the reporter? 

Mr. ToRKELsoN. M. W. Torkelson. director of the State planning 
board and chairman of the Northern Lake States Regional Committee, 
address State Office Building, Madison, Wis. 

(Statements of W. A. Rowlands and M. W. Torkelson are as 
follows:) 

Statement bt W. A. Rowlands, UNnERSixY of Wisconsin 

A statement on rural zoning and land ITSE In WISCONSIN 

Twenty-four nortliern and central Wisconsin counties have planned, developed 
and enacted rural zoning ordinances. Under these rural zoning ordinances, 
close to 5,000,000 acres of land, much of it tax delinquent and most of it non- 
agricultural, have been officially closed to future agricultural settlement and 
year-long residence. These restricted lands will best serve the State and their 
owners in forestry, recreation, game, and in special industrial uses, thus leaving 
the better agricultural lands in already established communities open to un- 
restricted development and use. The restriction of an area of such size in 
Wisconsin is an undertaking of no small proportions and a tremendously sig- 
nificant one to all AVisconsin people. 

Rural zonhig an economic necessity. — In the sparsely settled areas of northern 
and central Wisconsin the need for controlling land uses grew out of sheer 
economic and financial necessity. These counties were burdened with aban- 
doned farms, tax-delinquent lands, and a shrinking tax base on the one hand 
and increased per capita costs for local government services, stich as roads and 
schools, on the other hand. This reduction of income, which became most acute 
in the latter part of the decade 1920-30, together with counties owning millions 
of acres of land acquired by tax deed, worked filiancial havoc on already badly 
depleted treasuries. 

Out of the shattering realities of this period, three observations became in- 
creasingly clear to the county ofiicers and interested citizens. 

1. That uncontrolled and unregulated settlement and development of the 
land results in increasing demands on the town in building and maintaining 
new roads and on the school district in transporting, boarding, or providing 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1029 

special school facilities. Such demands had already cost the town, the school 
district, the county, and the State many times the amount of taxes paid by 
the settler. In the interests of sound governmental economy, it was evident 
that a curb should be placed on the establishment of new governmental services. 

2. That a substantial area of land throughout all of northern Wisconsin 
should be used for both pulilic and private forestry purposes, for recreation, and 
for the development of game resources because it is submarginal for agriculture 
and because we need forests. L(»cal people realized that to provide for 
permanent employment, permanent industry, and permanent business it was 
vital that the nonagricultural lands produce raw material for local wood- 
using industries. 

3. That definite assurance be given the State and the more populated 
counties that State aids will be wisely administered and wisely used. Many 
town and county officers felt strongly their resiDonsibility in seeing that State 
aid for roads, for schools, for fire protection, for forest development purix»ses, 
and for public health be carefully husbanded. Under a system of unregulated 
development this was impossible. Fostering the old spirit of free pioneering, as 
exemplified by Daniel Boone, at the same time attempting to provide Govern- 
ment services to any family regardless of location, inevitably resulted in ex- 
tremely heavy costs to the local and State treasuries. 

Many State agencies having administrative responsibility throughout Wis- 
consin recognize the benefits of an orderly control in land use and give it their 
moral support. Officers of the State board of health have repeatedly pointed 
out the danger that lurks in abandoned buildings in remote areas. Such build- 
ings are constantly occupied by a succession of squatters who stay for perhaps 
a season and then move on. Under the sanitary conditions that prevail around 
such places, it is practically impo.ssible to clean up the premises adequately 
following the outbreak of a communicable disease. Numerous serious outbreaks 
of contagious diseases have been traced to these places. Further, it is con- 
tended by officers of the State board of health that their general health work 
is hampered by the inaccessibility of remote settlers. It is clear then that the 
sooner this type of settlement is eliminated the easier it will be to build a 
higher standard of health for the region and the State. 

The State conservation department likewise manifests an active intere.st 
in land use and in the adoption and enforcement of county zoning ordinances 
for forestry, recreation, and agriculture. Fire protection, game protection, and 
forestry development constitute important activities in the work of this depart- 
ment. Certainly it needs no extended discussion to make obvious the hazard 
to forest and to recreation areas incident to land clearing by a remote settler. 

Local residents — old settlers and particularly county and town officers — in 
every county and in almost every town can readily relate incidents which lend 
reality to the reasons for the interest of the several State departments. 

Objecfii'es in rural zoninff.— In zoning rural areas there are two strong motivat- 
ing forces behind the movement today. One features zoning as a "means of 
protecting property values ; the other as a strong element of government designed 
to curb the cost of all too frequent wasteful governmental services. One force 
recognizes tlie stability in values which attaches to a community of usage, par- 
ticularly when certain aesthetic values ai"e incorporated into the community 
plan. The second seeks so to direct land development that maximum usage is 
made of existing public services before newer and only partly used ones are 
inaugurated. A third force, more evident in some areas than others, is the 
necessity of protecting certain social values which may become blighted through 
unregulated expansion. 

Creafhif/ an enlightened pnilic opinion. — The Wisconsin county zoning law 
(sec. 50.97 of the Wisconsin Statutes) is definitely a "home rule" law. Author- 
ity to zone is given to the county board of supervisors subject to the approval 
(if the town board of the town or towns involved. The initiative in the enact- 
ment of a county zoning ordinance rests with the county board. The county 
board may draw up the provisions of the zoning ordinance including: 

1. The creation of specific use districts and designating the boundaries of the 
districts on an official zoning map. 

2. The permitted and prohibited uses of land for each district. 

3. Provisions for changes and amendments. 



]^Q30 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Further, it is the agency charged with the responsibility for adminif^toriug 
and enforcing the ordinance after it is enacted. The town board, on the other 
hand, is given the power to approve or reject tlie ordinance and the boundaries 
of the use districts. 

It has been a fundamental principle in zoning procedure in Wisconsin that 
residents in rural communities should be considered and consulted in the de- 
velopment of plans which affect them most. To that end, local educational 
meetings, arranged by the county committee on zoning, assisted in a purely 
advisory way by a representative either of the college of agriculture of the 
University of Wisconsin or of the Wisconsin Conservation Department, have been 
held in school houses, town halls, and even in private homes in numerous com- 
munities of all zoned counties. The greatest merit in this procedure is that it has 
won the support and respect of settlers and taxpayers throughout the several 
zoned counties. Rural people were much more concerned with the spirit in which 
their elected representatives enacted the ordinance than they were in the tech- 
nical aspects of procedure. 

The job of rural zoning in Wisconsin is not completed with the enactment of 
a zoning ordinance. It will never be completed — because — after enactment 
comes administration and enforcement. As the result of experience, popula- 
tion growth, or changing conditions, amendments have already been made in 
many of the Wisconsin ordinances. 

A rural zoning ordinance is only part in the development of land-use pro- 
gram. Since the enactment of rural zoning ordinances northern Wisconsin 
counties have been actively and productively engaged in : 

1. Establishing and maintaining definite policies with respect to the sales 
and disposals of county-owned lands for agricultural, recreational, and other 
uses. 

2. Relocating isolated settlers from nonagricultural lands in restricted dis- 
tricts to good farm lands in established communities close to roads, schools, 
markets, and community centers or in the case of nnnfarm families or those 
too old or physically handicapped to farm relocation to urban centers where 
they may "be taken care of" with less expense for relief and public health. 

3. Blocking forest tends for better administration through exchange or pur- 
chase. 

4. Entering tax-reverted lands in restricted forestry districts under the Wis- 
consin forest crop law in cooperation with the State conservation department 
to develop forests. 

5. Reserving recreational lands and water for recreational use. By re- 
stricting the agricultural use of close to 5,000,000 acres of land, these Wisconsin 
counties have accomplished vp'atershed protection and flood control insofar as 
this can be accomplished through proper utilization. 

6. Demolishing abandoned shacks and structures on public (county) land to 
eliminate fire hazards and to improve the health standards of the region. 

7. Consolidating the smaller units of Government made obsolete through 
land planning, land zoning, and the relocation of isolated settlers. 

With the assistance from the State and Federal Government there has 
already been a real achievement in all of these programs. With continued 
financial aid from the Federal Government in the relocation of isolated set- 
tlers, the ultimate objectives of rural zoning can be achieved. 

During the past several years some 400 isolated tracts of land have been 
purchased by the Federal Government. On many of the.se tracts famiUes were 
attempting to eke out an existence. The purchase of these lands has made 
possible the closing of some 14 rural schools. It has saved several thousand 
dollars annually in expenses for school transportation ; likewise, road costs 
have been reduced by eliminating the necessity for maintenance and snow- 
plowing. Relief costs have been materially cut by voluntarily relocating many 
of the families in settled areas in which they have a chance to obtain a reason- 
ably satisfactory standard of living. 



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JQ32 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

EXHIBITS 

Publications 

1. Rural Zoning — Its Influence on Public Health and Schools, 

2. What Chance Has a City Man on a Wisconsin Farm? 

3. Rural Zoning Ordinance in Wisconsin. 

4. Rural County Zoning in Wisconsin. 

5. What Does Northern Wisconsin Farming Need Most? 

6. Relocating the Isolated Settler. 

7. Wisconsin's Land Use Program in the Forested Areas. 

8. Bayfield County Zoning Ordinance. 

y. Selecting a Farm in Northern Wisconsin. 
10. Making the Best Use of Wisconsin Land Through Zoning. 



Statement by M. W. Torkelson, Secretary and Executive Officer of the 
Wisconsin State Planning Board 

statement on population changes in the CUT-OVKR region of WISCONSIN 

In the performance of its duties under Wisconsin Statutes, the State plan- 
ning board has made extensive studies of population and population changes, 
local government income and expenditures, tax delinquency, and other matters 
relating to the economic condition of all portions of the State. 

The Northern Lakes States Regional Committee, a group composed of in- 
dividuals selected because of their familiarity with conditions in the so-called 
cut-over region of the three lake States of Michigan, Minnesota, and Wis- 
consin, and organized by the National Resources Committee ( since July 30, 
1931, the National Resources Planning Board) to study conditions in the 
region and propose measures for its rehabilitation, has worked intensively for 
2 years. Its report, of which copy is 6\ed herewith, has been submitted to 
the President. The President transmitted the report to Congress in a statement 
wliich read in part as follows : 

"I am asking that the National R''sources Planning Board keep in touch 
with the regional committee, which sponsored this report, to assist the regional 
committee in promoting correlation of activities of Federal, State, and local 
agencies concerned with bringing about the accomplishments desired. I com- 
mend the report to your careful study for whatever action may be appropriate." 

In addition, the committee has submitted definite legislative proposals which 
have been considered by the National Resources Planning Board and trans- 
nutted to the President, accompanied by a statement by the Board that "the 
proposals are in harmony with the recommendations of the report of Northern 
Lakes States Regional Committee with which Board agrees in principle." 

The net influence of migration on the 26 counties in Wisconsin which were 
designated by the Northern Lakes States Regional Committe as "cut-over" 
are set out in the attached tabulations and the explanatory statements which 
accompany these tabulations. Those counties which are shown on the attached 
map entitled "Map No. 2, Population iMap of Wisconsin, 1930," do not include 
all of the areas of poor agricultural land in northern and central Wisconsin 
but may be considered as presenting fairly the extent of the problem area 
since they contain very good agricultural areas which balance ixtor agricul- 
tural areas outside the boundaries of the designated region. The two tabu- 
lations presented here are intended to show the migration trends within the 
cut-over region of Wisconsin since 1910. The first of the.se (table I), based on 
United States census data, shows the net migration for the period 1910 to 
1930. The second (table II). based on school census data, reflects migration 
in this area since 1930. 

Between 1910 and 1930 21 of the 26 counties in this region experienced net 
emigrations. The area as a whole (including also those counties that experi- 
enced net immigrations) lost over 78,000 persons during this period as the 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1033 

result of migration. Of this number, over Go,00n persons were between the 
productive ages of 20 and 44 years. Since this migration was a movement pri- 
marily of persons in their productive primes, it obviously resulted from a 
relatively prevailing scarcity of economic opportunity within the region. De- 
clining forestry industries were basic in most of these counties. Some coun- 
ties were overcome as a result of either depletions of mineral resources or the 
attainment of the point of sulmiarginal production. Douglas and Ashland 
Counties, especially the cities of Superior and Ashland, became particularly 
depressed as the result of the declining resources of the area whose products 
pas.sed through them for distribution through the Great Lakes. 

Since 193(i the distressed economic conditions in the rest of the State, as well 
as in other States, temporarily halted the exodus of the population from this 
legion. Between 1980 and 19a3 there \^as even an immigration into this area 
which is illustrated by the increase in the number of its children of school age 
(table II). To a large extent this was a return of persons who had migrated 
to other areas which were now experiencing even greater economic distress. 
This movement was general throughout the State and continued through the 
worst part of the depression. However, this return to the region was only tem- 
porary, since after 1933 the normal emigration was resumed. This is illus- 
trated by the decline in the number of children of scliool age since 1933. 

The resumption of general emigration from this region in the face of uncer- 
tain economic opportunities elsewhere is again illustrative of the region's eco- 
nomic limitations. The generally poor condition of these counties was greatly 
aggravated Viy the temporary halt in the exodus of their populations. In many 
communities it has become difficult to maintain basic functions of local govern- 
ment and education without outside help. A large percentage of the population 
has become dependent on Government aid for sustenance. The necessary local 
budgets in many communities have swelled to a point where property tax levies 
are prohibitive even for normally self-sustaining taxpayers. Delinquencies are 
numerous. Land reversions have occurred in large numbers causing tremendous 
losses in the local tax bases. These, in turn, necessitate even higher tax rates 
in order to maintain the mounting governmental obligations with the shrinking 
tax base. 

The substance of the legislative proposals of the Northern Lakes States Regional 
Committee, which are in harmony with the land-use policies set out in the testi- 
mony of W. A. Rowlands at this hearing, are as follows : 

1. Tile purchase of the holdings of isolated settlers whose residence in the 
particular place demands inordinately liigli expenditures for pul)lic services such 
as schools, roads, and relief, where relief is necessai-y. 

2. An amplification of the program of the Farm Security Administration 
whereby farmers properly located on potentially good farms, whose economic 
self-sufficiency is prevented by reason of an insufficient acreage of land in crops 
on their respective farms, may be aided in securing the acreage of land, cleared 
of stumps and in crops, that is necessary to make the farm a self-supporting unit 
in a self-supporting connnunity. 

3. An increased program of reforestation having a twofold objective: (a) The 
restoration of the forests, which are the basic natural resource of the region; 
(ft) the provision of cash paid employment in useful work for I'esidents of the 
regions, especially the rural residents, during the period in which tliey are in 
piocess of attaining economic self-sufficiency on their farms. 

The supporting documents attached hereto are the following: 

E.rhihit I. — Th" report of the Northern Lakes States Regional Committee — 
"Regional Planning, Part YIII, Northern Lakes States." 

Ea-hihit II. — The legislative proposals of the Northern Lakes States Regional 
Committee — "Revised Proposals for Federal Action Programs in the Northern 
Lakes States." 

Exhihit III. — The Wisconsin State Planning Board Bulletin No. 7 — "Tlie Cut- 
over Region of Wisconsin." 



3^034 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Table I. — Population migration^ in the cut-orer area of Wisconsin, 19/0-SO 



Migration by age groups 



All age 
groups 



0-19 
years 



20-44 
years 



45 years 
and over 



Entire region 

Counties: 

Adams 

Ashland 

Bayfleld 

Burnett 

Chippewa 

Clark 

Douglas 

Eau Claire 

Florence 

Forest 

Iron 

Jackson 

Juneau 

Langlade 

Lincoln 

Marinette 

Monroe 

'Oconto 

Oneida 

Price 

Kusk 

Sawyer 

Taylor 

Vilas 

Washburn 

Wood 



287 
483 
636 
504 
692 
729 
992 
826 
100 
013 
370 
054 
357 
434 
204 
031 
424 
800 
466 



-876 
-962 
149 
-378 



-002 

-1,060 

-1,129 

-106 

1,323 

479 

-2,612 

1,011 

-98 

2,055 

350 

-1,441 

-2,393 

1,648 

153 

-1,351 

-1,557 

60 

1,250 

1,348 

2, 308 

870 

2,044 

248 

922 

2,182 



-2,683 
-3,168 
-4,412 
-2, 119 
-3,570 
-5.818 
-2, 254 
650 
-825 

-no 

-1,209 
-4, 429 
-4,883 
-1,507 
-1,746 
-5,383 
-6,173 
-5,893 
123 
-1,854 
-1,172 

-989 
-2,374 
-1,001 

-922 
-1,690 



-702 
-1,255 
-1,095 

-279 
-1,445 
-1,390 
-2, 126 

1. 165 

-177 
68 

-511 
-1,184 
-1,081 

-575 

-611 

-2, 297 

-1,691 

-1,967 

93 

-378 
189 
31 

-546 

-209 
149 

-870 



1 The population migration for the period 1910-30 was determined by subtracting the computed popula- 
tion tor 1930 from the actual census of 1930. The computed population for 1930 was obtained by applying 
the natural rate of increase to the census of 19)0. Had there been no migration, the computed population 
for 1930 would have been identical with the 1930 census. 

The figures in this table show the difference between the actual and computed population for 1930 and 
represent net migration. Minus signs indicate a net emigration; all other figures indicate a net immigration 



Table II. 



-Children of school age in the cut-over area in Wisconsin for the years 
11)21, 19S0, 193.3, and 1936' 





1927 


1930 


1933 


1936 




186, 010 


178, 509 


181,071 


176, 895 






Counties: 


2,974 
7,702 
6,268 
3,607 
11, 622 
12, 793 
15, 277 
10, 992 
1,479 
4,039 
3,759 
5,605 
5,761 
7,523 
7,637 
12, 335 
8,898 
10, 423 
4,715 
6,501 
6,323 
3, 220 
.7,531 
2,226 
4,041 
12, 759 


2, 768 
7,247 
5,656 
3,497 

11,426 
12, 071 
14, 249 

11, 568 
1,280 

3, 905 
3,699 
5,505 
5,389 
7,470 
7,015 

11,458 
8, 754 
9,864 
4,705 
fi, 173 
6, 075 
3.179 
7,083 
2,043 
3, 694 

12, 736 


2,952 
7,462 
5,441 
3,732 
11,473 
12, 278 
13, 615 
12, 041 
1, 352 
4,146 
3,478 
5,394 
5, 451 
7,713 
7, 096 
11,785 
8,866 
9,707 
5,118 
6,278 
6, 231 
3. 395 
7,019 
2,392 
3,854 
12, 802 


2,766 


Ashland - 


7, 535 


Bayfleld ...-..- ._ 


4,924 




3,709 




11,850 


Clark - 


11,355 




12,971 


Eau Claire . .- . 


12, 059 


Florence .. - 


1.369 




4,170 


Iron - -- 


3,174 




5,126 


Juneau -- - 


5, 385 




7,559 




7, 078 


Marinette - .. -- 


11,260 




8,794 




9,127 




5,446 


Price.. -- . -- _ - _ 


5,994 


Rusk- - - - - 


5,867 


Sawyer.- .. - . - .... - .. 


3, 576 


Taylor . . ... 


6,671 


Vilas -. --. 


2,448 


Washburn . ... 


3,907 


Wood .. .. 


12. 775 







1 Based on school census in the annual school district reports to the State superintendent of public 
Instruction. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1035 

TESTIMONY OF W. A. ROWLANDS AND M. W. TOEKELSON— 

Resumed 

Mr. Parsons. Congressman Sparkman will question you, gentlemen. 

Mr. Sparkman. Gentlemen, 3'Our prepared statements will be made 
part of the record. I have reatl them over, and I am sure every mem- 
ber of the committee has. We would like to review some of the high 
i-pots of those statements, if we might, and have any further thoughts 
or suggestions you might have to oifer us. 

This is Mr. Torkelson [indicating], is it not? 

]Mr. Torkelson. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. You are chairman of the State planning board; is 
that right ? 

Mr. Torkelson. I am not chairman. I am the director and executive 
officer. 

Mr. Sparkman. Tell me what the duties of the planning board are, 
hoAv they applv to interstate migration, and in what way you are con- 
nected with it. 

Mr. Torkelson. The duties are to make studies with respect to the 
various factors which ma}' influence the development of the State, 
rej^ort the results, and to cooperate with local governments and civic 
groups in planning activities. 

Among such factors are transportation in all its forms, housing, 
work opportunities, and especially the natural resources, among them 
Mater resources involving flood control and hydro power. 

The purpose is to promote well-coordinated development. Such 
studies have disclosed the relation of problems which may arise by the 
reason of migration. The standard of living in any area is dependent 
upon the ability of that area to support the population, and that is 
dependent upon the adjustment of the population to the resources. 
Such adjustment may be altered radically by changes in the popula- 
tion, and since migration may cause very great and very rapid changes 
in population, studies of resources with respect to population are very 
important. 

OBJECTH'ES or RI RAL ZONING IN AVISCONSIN 

Mr. Sparkman. Professor Rowlands, you are head of the rural zon- 
ing board ? 

Mr. Rowlands. I am specialist in land economics in the university 
and have been working with the counties in the development of their 
zoning ordinances. I have no official capacitj^ in developing, enacting, 
or enforcing zon.ing. 

Mr. Sparkman. Is Wisconsin, Professor Rowlands, rather a pioneer 
in this type of work? 

Mr. Rowlands. Wisconsin did develop the first distinctly rural 
State enabling act for zoning. California and some other States per- 
mitted county zoning under a charter system, I believe, and while it 
was county zoning, it did not regulate and restrict all land within the 
county outside the incorporated limits of cities and villages to any 
of these special uses permitted in the ordinance. 

Mr. Sparkman. Would you tell us just what the objectives of rural 
zoning are in Wisconsin? 

Mr. Rowlands. In Wisconsin there are a number of objectives but 
the four that stand out. that are dominant, are the promotion of Gov- 



1036 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

eriiment. economy in the development of roads, snowplowing mainte- 
nance, and so forth: in schools; in relief; in public health: in forest 
protection, fire prevention; the promotion of (lovermnent economy by 
preventing the development of farms on land that is unfit, that is iso- 
lated, and that is worthless for agriculture. 

The second reason was that the people in the north felt the need to 
develop a basis for the right kind of land use such as forests, recrea- 
tion, water control and wildlife development where the resources and 
environment are fitted for it. 

The third was perhaps peculiar to Wisconsin. That was to merit 
and maintain the principle of State aid, because in Wisconsin our 
northern counties get from three to five times as much from the State 
in the form of State aids as they pay into the State in the form of State 
taxes. We have State aid for roads, schools, relief, public health, fire 
protection, and forest development. The counties feel they should 
put their own house in order if they are to merit and maintain that 
assistance from the State. 

The fourth reason, which was not apparent originally, but which is 
now becoming more and more apparent, is the protection given to pros- 
pective settlers by preventing settlement on lands that are isolated and 
that are worthless to agriculture. Tax-delinquent land in Michigan 
reverts to the State. In Minnesota — Dr. Zon can correct me — each 
unit of the government had a stake in the uncollected taxes. In Wis- 
consin tax-delinquent land reverts to the county and becomes a prob- 
lem of the county. Those were the four basic reasons why the counties 
wanted to develop zoning ordinances. 

Mr. Sparkman. Was most of that land you speak of as being sub- 
marginal land suited or not to agriculture in what is known as the 
cut-over region? 

Mr. Rowlands. Most of it was not suited to agriculture. 

Mr. Sparkman. Was it the cut -over region that posed the principal 
problem for you? 

Mr. Rowlands. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Resulting in the establishment of this kind of 
work ? 

Mr. Rowlands. Yes: the cut-over region, or the former timberlands 
of northern and central Wisconsin are the major land-problem regions 
of the State. 

Mr. Sparkman. Did that produce a migration problem with your 
people, or in what way did it tie up with the migration problem? 

Mr. Rowi.ands. In the cut-over region, we have many separate 
nationality groups. We have, for instance, migration into parts of 
Forest County. This has taken place in the towns of Nashville and 
Alvin. In northern AVisconsin we have many small communities of 
Polish, Croatian, Finnish, Czech, German, French-Canadian, and so 
forth. 

We also have migration into a group of northwest counties such as 
Douglas, Baj^field, Burnett, and so forth, from the Dust Bowl. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1037 

PUBLIC OWNERSHIP OF LAND 

Mr. Sparkman. With respect to most of these lands, these sub- 
marginal lands, to whom do they belono;? Do they still belong to the 
individual, or had they been lost through tax delinquency ? 

Mr. Ro"\VLANDS. When the zoning ordinances were first enacted in 
the north, the counties owned anywhere from 100.000 acres to 300,000 
acres of land, from which they got no return, and had to pay for all 
of its protection, roads, schools, and so forth. Much of it had re- 
verted to county ownership at the time of enactment of the zoning 
ordinances. The owner, in some cases a real-estate group, in some 
cases lumber companies, in some cases! the State, and in some cases 
individuals, saw no possible hope for getting out of it what they had 
put into the land already, so they dropped them for taxes. 

The county took land in place of cash taxes. The county had the 
problem of owning, managing, and administering more land than any 
single owner or any group of owners of that kind of land in the 
county. We have acted to prevent any further expense. The first 
step was zoning. Then about eight other steps followed that. 

Mr. Sparkman. You s])eak of this land as zoned. I gather from 
your use of the term, and also from other statements you have made,. 
that the real purpose is to divide it up and classify it ? 

Mr. Rowlands. That is correct. 

Mr. Sparkman. Some of it is suitable, and some of it is not, for 
agricultural or for resettling purposes? 

Mr. Rowlands. That is right. 

Mr. Sparkman. Or for whatever purpose you might have in mind? 

Mr. Rowlands. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Take the land that is not suitable for agricultural 
purposes : To what use is it being devoted? Is it being reforested? 

Mr. Rowlands. Yes. We have a total of approximately 5.000,000 
acres restricted by these self-imposed restrictions enacted by the 
counties through zoning ordinances either to forest or recreation dis- 
tricts. Most of it is restricted to forestry districts. The establish- 
ment of a legal residence and the agricultural use of that land is 
prohibited by the county zoning ordinance after the enactment of the 
zoning ordinance. People who are in there may remain, but no new 
residence may be established in that district after the enactment of 
the zoning ordinance. 

It is in that area where wo have national forests, county forests. 
State forests, and also some private forests. I would say that per- 
haps today 70 percent of the land that is at present restricted is in 
some form of public ownership, use, and management, either Federal, 
State, or county, for forestry. 

Mr. Parsons. You mean the land was forfeited to the State ? 

Mr. Rowlands. To the county, in Wisconsin. 

Mr. Parsons. They do not have the system of putting it up and sell- 
ing it ? 

Mr. Rowlands. Yes; they do. 

Mr. Parsons. At public auction, for the taxes ? 

Mr. Rowlands. They do; but when nobody else takes it, buys it or 
bids for it. the county takes deed to it. 



1Q38 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. Parsons. I see. 

Mr. Rowlands. They have been taking deed to the aood land and the 
bad, to get rid of tlie fictitious tax base. 

Mr. Sparkman. They are just using that method to charge it off their 
books ? 

Mr. Rowlands. Yes. Many counties have established a definite 
policy covering the sales and disposals of those lands. Once they get 
this class of land into their ownership, then they can begin to block 
it up for best administration by exchange with other lands. 

Mr. Parsons. It left you with a lot of surplus labor when the lumber- 
ijig business ran its course in Wisconsin, did it not? 

Mr. Rowlands. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. Where did those people go ? 

Mr. Rowlands. A number of those people have just left. Some have 
gone to cities. Some have moved into villages. They had land in 
the early days. I think the paradox in Wisconsin is that settlement 
ceased — the bulk of settlement ceased — when logging stopped, because 
the.y had a little land they were developing and getting a winter's 
work in the woods with their teams, and that sort of thing — getting 
enough money to go back on the farm and do clearing and developing 
and building. However, when the outside employment was gone and 
when the lumber industry went out, it left a lot of dead sawmill 
towns, straitened communities, and isolated settlers. This created a 
financial condition among the counties that was unprecedented. 

Mr. Sparkman. Are these public lands being patrolled? 

Mr. Rowlands. They are protected and being watched. We have 
C. C. C. camps which are assisting in fii-e-suppression work, and in 
building roads, trails, and doing forest-development work, such as 
planting and timber-stand improvement. 

Mr. Sparkman. Squatters are kept off'? 

Mr. Rowlands. Squatters have been kept off private lands, and 
in many cases squatters have been kept off of a number of the county- 
owned lands. As a matter of fact, we have had county officers 
destroy, burn, and demolish isolated abandoned shacks on county- 
owned lands that might have become a habitation to some itinerant 
family, resulting in health problems, road, school, and relief problems. 
As a matter of fact, we have had a number of cases where the county 
did not demolish such shacks soon enough. Marinette County in par- 
ticular has had the experience of having families come in and inhabit 
these shacks and cause serious financial burden to the county. There 
was a total cost of $800 due to the existence of one shack in 2 years. 

proposals for land policy 

Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Torkelson. you have outlined for us some region 
proposals of the Lake States regional committee? 

Mr. Torkelson. The regional proposals are right in line with the 
land policy Mr. Rowlands lias ex])lained. It is a three-point program. 
The first is the continuation of the work of buying out these isolated 
settlers who are located on these unrestricted lands where they stand no 
chance at all of makine: fi success. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1039 

The second step is a continuation of the work of the Farm Security 
Administration, together with some changes which would permit 
farmers who have adopted the Farm Security Administration plan, 
who are located on land where they stand ;i chance of success, where 
the man is all right, to get more acres of land in crops. Our studies 
showed that, in the best farming districts of the State, the average 
farm had about 62 acres of land in crops. In the intermediate sec- 
tion, about 52 acres of land in crops were farmed. But in the cut- 
over region, there were only 36 acres of land in crops per average 
farm. 

In the arbitrary classification — it was somewhat arbitrary — there 
were some counties which had a lot of poor land, but also had a lot 
of good land. In some of those counties in the cut-over land, they 
averaged from only 20 to 25 acres of land in crops per farm. 

Mr. Parsons. What was that, broken land, in some places^ 

Mr. ToRKELsoN. It was broken land. In those cases we think the 
thing to do is to put the farmer on his feet, and provi'de him with 
more acres. 

Mr. Parsons. Is it loam soil ? 

Mr. ToRKELSON. The best soils in that territory are what we call the 
silt loam, or light clay loam soil. For certain crops that is very good 
and very productive. If a man can get a mininuun of 40 acres of 
land in crops, or better, 50 or 55 acres, he should be economically self- 
supporting, just as much as a farmer anywhere else. 

Mr. Sparkman. Go ahead, Mr. Torkelson. 

Mr. ToRKELsox. The third point is the development of the refores- 
tation program, that having a twofold purpose. The regional com- 
mittee in the Northern Lake States feels that the Government should 
make an investigation of the forests, because the preliminary work 
of the development of forests will provide a field for labor. These 
fellows can be employed on very useful work in the forests while they 
are struggling to get started. They can earn the cash they need to 
supplement what they get off of their places, and after the forests are 
restored, there will be a permanent and continuing industry through 
the wise use of the forest resources. 

Mr. Sparkman. That is all I have. 

Mr. Torkelson. May I make just one more statement ? 

Mr. Sparkman. Yes. 

migration from CLTT-OVER region 1910-193 

Mr. Torkelson. What I am going to say is probably in our written 
statement, but you may not have read it. We made an estimate as to 
the extent of migration by taking the 1910 census for each of the 
counties and applying to that a figure which would represent the 
natural increase if there had been no migration. Then we took the 
1930 census, and the diiierence between those two figures represents 
a very close approximation of the net migration. That shows that 
during that period there were about 78,000 j^eople who migrated out 
of there. 

Mr. Parsons. Out of how larg^e a region ^ 



1040 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. ToRKELsoN. Out of a region of approximately 1(5.500,1)00 acres, 
Miiioli would be — well, my arithmetic is not so very s:ood — it would 
be somethinir like 25.000 square miles. That was gradual, over a long 
period. 

Mr. Parsons. Over a 20-year period? 

Mr. ToRKKi.soN. Over a 20-year period. Then Ave also have S(mie 
other figures. AVe took figures which gave the school census in those 
same counties, by counties for the years 1927. 1930. 1933, and 1936. 
There was an increase of 1933 over 1930. but a decrease of 1936 under 
1933. which would indicate that there was a migration into the region 
between 1930 and 1933 and a migration out of it again from 1933 to 
1936. That would seem to me. at least, to coincide with the change in 
the economic condition. 

^Ir. Paesoxs. AYhere did these people go. these 78,000 people? 

Mr. ToRKELSox. AVell. from 1910 to 1930. 1 think they went out into 
Minnesota and the Dakotas mostly, and to the western part of the 
country. 

Mr. Parsons. Were they, in the main, lumberjacks in the early days, 
and wcKxlsmen ? 

Mr. ToRKELSOX*. I think they were people who were dependent upon 
the lumber industry in one way or another. 

Mr. Parsons. Directly or indirectly ? 

Mr. ToRKELSOx. Yes. 

^Ir. Parsoxs. Of course, we still had a little frontier in 1910. 

Mr. Rowlands. Our logging mills were still running then. 

^Ir. ToRKELSox. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. Yes: especially going westward. 

Mr. ToRKELSON. The lumber business hit its peak about 1900. It 
had increased up to that time. After 1900 it deci-eased. There still is 
some lumber business up there, but it is very small in comparison with 
what it was. 

Mr. Parsons. What reconnnendations have you to make as a result 
of your studies, if you have any to make to us. that would be helpful 
to the committee in framing legislation to aid in the migrant problem ? 

Mr. ToRKELSox. Well, speaking now primarily for that particular 
region, we feel that we will be able through the institution of these 
policies of which we have spoken, to take care of the population that 
is there. AYe do not believe any large amount of migration into there 
is desirable. 

^Ir. CYriis. Is there any coming now? 

Mr. ToRKELsox. I think 'Mr. Rowlands is more familiar with that 
than I am. directly, from direct knowledge. I would prefer to have 
him testify on that. 

Mr. Curtis. Yery well. 

Mr. RowLAXDS. As I mentioned, the Kentuckians are coming into 
Forest County. Polish people are coming into Armstrong Creek. 

Mr. Parsoxs. Where are they coming from ? 

Mr. Rowlands. Chicago and Gary. 

^[r. Parsoxs. Why are they coming out there ? 

Mr. Rowlands. For various i-easons. To get away from where they 
are. and cret back on the land. Here is a conununitv in settlement bv 



INTERSTATE MirxRATION 1041 

people of the same luuioiiality. same beliefs, and so forth. We have 
had a little difficulty in the pa"^st with people, for instance, on W. P. A. 
in Chicago. As a matter of fact, Taylor County enacted a zoning 
ordinance for one specific purpose, and that was to prevent 40 families 
on W. P. A. in the city of Chicago from coming into the town of Rib 
Lake. We worked with them on their zoning program. They liad 
set it aside temporarily. Finally, 2 years afterwards, zoning was pro- 
posed and discussed in Taylor County. One man came into the 
county ; when the town chairman found out that he was there, he asked 
him why he selected land in that particular town. He said, "Well, I 
was on W. P. A. in Chicago. They said to come up here." He said 
that there were :39 other families coming up. The chairman asked 
him what he and the other 39 families were going to do on this land. 
He said. "Well, the Government can take care of us up here, just as 
well as the Government can take care of us in Chicago." The chair- 
man woiidered what government he meant — the Federal Government, 
State government, county government, or town government. How- 
ever, the town chairmen of several adjoining towns met and called a 
special meeting of the county board and at a special meeting of the 
coimty board of supervisors, they unanimously enacted their zoning 
ordinance to prevent that kind of migration. 

Mr. ToRKELSON. May I finish my statement? 

Mr. Curtis. Yes. 

KECOMMEXDATIONS 

Mr. ToRKELSON. As to what policies Ave would recommend for your 
committee, it may be that this will not directly affect the matter of 
migration, but it Avill gi-eatly aid in securing proper adjustment of the 
situation up there as it exists now. If the three-point program recom- 
mended by tlie Northern Lake States Regional Committee is carried 
out, it will assist tremendously. The first step toward that is this 
purchase of the isolated submarginal holdings of settlers, until all of 
those who can be moved and who should be moved, are moved out of 
where they are to some place where they would be better situated. 

]Mr. Parsoxs. With respect to the land from which you would move 
these people, would you sell tliat to the Federal Government for 
forestry purposes ? 

Mr. ToRKELSOx. The Soil Conservation Service is already engaged 
in that program. A year ago. in the summer of 1939. I believe, when 
they had $75,000 available for such purchasing, they made 75 of these 
purchases, which Avas at an approximate acreage cost of $1,000 per 
purcliase per family. This year there is only $15,000 available. Here 
we have this splendid organization set up, just hitting its stride, and 
suddenly it stops — out of gas. AVe think we ought to continue that 
until the problem is settled, and then through Mr. Rowland's zoning 
ordinance as fast as the situation is cleared it is tied down and held 
there. 

Mr. Rowlands. I should like to add one thing. 

Mr. Parsons. You may proceed. 



1042 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. Rowlands. In the Great Plains States, T understand from 
the Soil Conservation Service that where they liave been buyinir tliese 
isolated or abandoned farms, nonagricultural lands, it has cost 
somewhere in the neighborhood of three or four thousand dollars per 
unit to buy it. In the South it has cost a little more. In Wisconsin 
it is about $1,000 per unit. 

The Federal Government can get more return on a dollar invested 
in land purchase in Wisconsin, for the reason that no one else can get 
in there and set up another habitation, because it is zoned. It is 
futile to buy out isolated settlers where there is no protection to pre- 
vent new isolated settlers from coming into that region adjoining the 
land purchased. 

Mr. Parsons Yes. 

Mr. Rowlands. That is. protection and preservation are established 
in these local ordinances. 

Mr, Parsons. Are there any other questions? 

Mr. Curtis. Did you say you had some people coming in from the 
drought area, the Dust Bowl? 

Mr. Rowlands. There have been some coming into the northwestern 
counties in Wisconsin from the drought States. 

Mr. Curtis. Have they been able to work into your economy, or 
have they been on relief? 

Mr. Rowlands. They have been able to work into our economy 
pretty well and the Farm Security Administration has been helping a 
lot in locating them. The county agricultural agents have been as- 
sisting in working out plans for them. 

Mr. Curtis. They come from the Dakotas, I take it ? 

Mr. Rowlands. The Dakotas. and some from Kansas and Nebraska. 

Mr. Curtis. That is all. 

Mr. Parsons. Thank you very much, gentlemen. You have made 
quite a contribution to the committee. Your statements which you 
have submitted have been received as part of the formal record. 

(Whereupon. Mr. Rowlands and Mr. Torkelson were excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF EAPHAEL ZON, DIRECTOR, LAKE STATES FOREST 
EXPERIMENT STATION 

Mr. Parsons. The next witness will be Dr. Zon. 

Will you state your full name and your address and your official 
position and who you represent for the record, please Dr. Zon? 

Mr. ZoN. Raphael Zon, Lake States Forest Experiment Station. 

Mr. Parsons. Congressman Osmers will interrogate you, Dr. Zon. 

Mr. Osmers. You have submitted a statement, Dr. Zon, covering 
conditions in the so-called cut-over region. 

(The statement referred to is as follows:) 

Statement by Raphael Zon, Director, Lake States Forest Experiment Station 

A statement on the CTJT-OVER region BREEDING PL.\CE OF MIGRANTS 

The problem of migratory destitute workers has two aspects : 

1. The constitutional right of American citizens to migrate from one State to 

another to seek economic opportunities, and in this search for employment to be 

protected from uncontrolled exploitation. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1043 

2. Eliminating the causes of migration at their source by increasing the eco- 
nonjic opportunities in the distressed area. 

The first lies in the field of labor legislation ; the second, in the field of 
economics. 

This statement deals with the causes of distressed conditions in the cut-over 
region \A-hich makes it a potential reservoir of migration and offers some sugges- 
tions for improving the economic opportunities at home and thus eliminating the 
causes of migration. 

The cut-over reyion. — The northern portions of Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minne- 
sota, comprising, roughly, 76 counties, are commonly referred to as the cut-over 
region. The name suggests that it was once a timbered region from which the 
timber has been removed. This is not entirely true. Mining of copper and iron, 
and to some extent farming, play an important part in its economic life and are 
also responsible for the present economic condition. 

The region includes some 57 million acres (about one and one-half times as 
large as the New England States) and has a population of about IM2 million 
people. 

The region is, for the most part, still "wild land area." Although some 16,- 
fX)0,U<JO acres, or more than one-fourth, are classed as land in farms, actually 
only 10 percent is in cropland. About 5,000,000 acres are in cities, villages, 
rights-of-way, and bogs and marshes. The remainder, between 40 and 45 million 
acres, is forest land of one kind or another. The cut-over region is therefore of 
very recent agricultural settlement and of low density of population. The popu- 
lation density ranges from 15 to 30 persons per square mile, and for most of the 
area there are less than 2 families per section of land. Its distressed condition, 
therefore, does not arise from overpopulation in relation to its resources. 

The cut-over reyion once a land of opportunity. — The cut-over region has been 
richly endowed with natural resources — forests, minerals, lakes, and large acre- 
ages of soil suitable for agriculture. Barely 50 years ago, people from all parts 
of the East flocked into this region to work in the copper and iron mines and the 
lumber camps. In 2 decades, between ISSO and 1900, the population of the 
northern Lake States increased 245 percent. At its height the copper industry 
emploved 16,000 workers in Houghton County, Mich., alone, and the population 
of about 75,000 was almost wholly dependent upon it. In 1910-11 iron mining 
employed about 35,00U men. In the early nineties, during the period of highest 
lumber production, there were some 155,000 men employed in the primary and 
secondary wood-using industries. About the same time there was started a land 
boom, largely stimulated by land companies. 

Today the cut-over reyion — a distres-sed area. — In the course of three or four 
decades the economic picture has completely changed. The copper mines, which 
at their peak produced 96 percent of all the copper in the United States, in 1933 
produced only 9 percent and employed less than 2.000 workers. The decline in 
copper mining- antedates the depression, because while production of copper in 
the United States as a whole increased from 1933-34, that of the Michigan 
copper mines declined still further. Michigan copiier mining is deep, high-cost 
mining, mucli more costly than in Utah and the Southwest, and cannot compete 
with the low-cost mines recently discovered in Africa and elsewhere. 

The iron mines in the Lake States still produce about 88 percent of all the 
iron mined in the United States, and yet employ today fewer men. As a result 
of the mechanization of the mines and greater output per man, only 18,000 men 
were employed in 1937, against the 35.000 men employed in 1910, although 50 
percent more ore was taken out in 1937 than in 1910. Some estimates place the 
number of miners who can never be reemployed at 5,000, who must be moved 
elsewhere or provided with somp other work. For the most part, the men who 
came to the region to engage in mining were stranded there after the demand 
for their labor disappeared, because there was no other region to which they 
could move. 

The most disastrous consequence, however, was brought about by the cutting 
out of the timber. Some 90 percent of the original merchantable timber is now- 
gone, and most of the large sawmills have been closed. And in the course of 
the next 5 or 10 years, the fev/ remaining large mills will exhaust their timber 
supplies. The number of workers employed in logging and sawmilling has shnmk 
from 117,000 in 1890 to 12.ono in 1933 and even this not on a full-time basis. 
Since lumbering was the prevailing industry of the region, a more detailed 
account of its rise and decline may ))e desirable. (The three charts present 
graphically the rise and fall in lumber production and employment.) 



1044 



INTERSTATE MIGKATIOX 




u 1 1_ « I -' 1 

I860 1870 1880 1890 1900 1910 1920 1930 I940 



Figure 1. --Lumber production in tho Lake States, by State 
I869 to 1938. 
(Basis, U. S. Bureau of the Census data.) 



7 
6 
5 
4 
3 
2 
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I860 1870 1880 I890 1900 1910 1920 1930 



1940 



Figure 2. --Lumber production in the Lake States, by species, 
I869 to 1938. 
(Basis, U. S. Bureau of the Census data.) 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



1045 



Figure 3. Employment in logging and milling in the Lake 
States, 1859 - 1937. 



120 








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1859 1869 1879 If 
Years 



1899 1909 1919 1929 1937 



Source of Data: U. S. Bureau of the Census reports for 
industrial group entitled "Lumber and timber products 
not elsewhere classified". 

The rise and decline of the Imnher inditstrii in the Lake States. — Rapid ex- 
ploitation of the vast timber supplies of the Lalce States came as a result of 
demands for lumber for rural and urban construction throughout the Middle 
West, brought about by the unprecedented farm and industrial expansion which 
commenced after the Civil War. 

Prior to 1860 there had been considerable land cleared for farming in the 
southern portions of the Lake States, and many small sawmills, mostly water- 



IQ^Q INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

power, were cutting lumber foi- local and even some Eastern and ('entral States 
markets. Between 1840 and 1860. the nnmber of sawmills increased from 615 to 
1,561. In the latter year, Inmber production exceeded 500,000,000 feet. This was 
only a beginning. By 1870 the use of steam power in the sawmills made possible 
a tremendous increase in productive capacity, while railroad transportation in- 
creased the range of the lumbering operations and accessibility to markets. In 
1870, 2,500 sawmills reported production t)f 3,500,000,000 board feet of lumber. 

During the next three decades the lumber industry came rapidly into maturity 
and passed into old age. Peak production in ]\Iichigan was reached in 1889 at 
nearly 5,500,000.000 board feet. Wisconsin and Minnesota reported their greatest 
output in 1899 at over 8% and 2^, billion board feet, respectively. Although 
in 1889 the peak of lumber production had not been attained in either Minne- 
sota or Wisconsin, the combined total of the three Lake States was at a peak of 
nearly 10,000,000.000 board feet of luml)er. 

Just as the development of the lumber industry was the inevitable result of 
expanding demands for lumber in the Middle West, so the collapse of the industry 
was made Inevitable by the pressure of an almost limitless market on a limited 
resource. The decline of lumbering was as catastrophic as the rise of the in- 
dustry had been spectacular. In 20 years, from the peak of 1889, lumber produc- 
tion dropped nearly 45 percent. During these declining years of the pine industry, 
expanded markets for hemlock and hardwoods helped to cushion the fall in 
Wisconsin and Michigan. In Minnesota the progress of exploitation was some- 
what behind that in the other two States, but there were no extensive forests of 
r.orthern hardwoods to take up the slack when the pine was gone. The full 
effect of timber exhaustion in the Lake States was not felt until after 1929. Up to 
that time the development of other wood-using industries, notably pulp and 
paper and furniture, which utilized larger amomits of labor per vuiit of raw 
material in processing and production than does the lumber industry, helped 
to make up for the employment lost in the decline of lumbering. The census of 
1890 indicates peak employment of 155,000 men in the primary and secondary 
wood-using industries, of wliom 117,000 were employed in logging and sawmills. 
By 1929 the number reported employed in logging and sawmills had shrunk to 
82.000, but there were still a total of 182.000 men employed in all kinds of wood- 
using industries. After lJ)2fi the slump in employment, wages, and value of 
products was serious. In 1983 employment in all forest-products industries in 
the Lake States had fallen to 69',000 men. Salaries and wages dropped from 
$182,000,000 in 1929 to a low of $57,000,000 in 1933, and the gross value of products 
of all wood-using industries dropped from $6S0,000-,0O0 in 1929 to $249,000,000 in 
1933. 

The consequences of forest destruction. — The most far-reaching effect of the 
disappearance of the forest was not so much in the drastic curtailment of the 
opportunities for labor as in profoundly changing the whole pattern of land use 
and the economic and social structure of the connnunities that v:ere left behind. 
It gave rise to a new economic j)henomenon, namely, tax delinquency on an 
unprecedented scale, brought about by the abandonment of millions of acres of 
cut-over land by its original owners. 

Tax delinquency today is at the root of most of the economic difiiculcies of the 
region. The private exploitation of the timber resulted in the destruction of this 
valuable resource over a large area of the northern Lake States without replacing 
it by new timber growth or diverting it into permanent agriculture or other 
protitable use. The pioneering psychology of the early lumbermen, the belief 
that the forests were inexhaustible, the prevailing notion that all the cut-over 
land would eventually be needed for agricultural settlement, together with un- 
controlled forest tires that swept the cut-over land year after year, left in their 
wake millions upon millions of acres of devastated land, and millions upon millions 
of acres covered with inferior forest growth. When the attempts to dispose of 
the cut-over land to settlers, after many tragic experiences on the part of settlers, 
had collapsed, the owners of the land began to abandon this land for nonpayment 
of taxes. The local communities, in the heyday of logging, had issued bonds to 
tinance improvement of roads, schools, public buildings, and even drainage of 
swamps for future agricultural use. Today, with the decline of the lumber 
industry, the collapse of the land boom, many communities are left saddled with 
debts beyond their capacity to pay. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



1047 



In e.irlier years, taxes were not bnrfloiisome on local residents, even though 
the iKipnlation was sparse. Timberland and industries formed a broad enough 
tax base to absorb most of the load, but as the forest hind was cut over and the 
land abandoned and stricken off the tax I'olls, the tax base greatly diminished, 
speculative values of land disappeared. In the 14 northeastern counties of Min- 
nesota, for instance, and this is cliaracteristic of the entire cut-over region, the 
peak valuation occurred in 11.^:^0, when it was Jipproximately .$235,000,000. By 
1036 the valuation of thp same properties declined to $100,000,000. a shrinkage of 
57 percent, and furthei- decline is imminent. Land abandonment by timber owners 
and land speculators has left the farmer, home owner, and businessman to bear 
the burden. 

While taxable values have been decreasing, governmental costs have not been 
reduced, but, on the contrary, new costs have been added for relief, old-age 
assistance, and emergency programs. To raise the minimum amount of funds 
necessary to oi)erate the local governments, usually .$150,000 to .$600,000, requires 
a levy of 10 to 30 percent of the assessed value of the taxable property. All of 
the northeastern counties in Minnesota, except .St. Louis County, have average tax 
rates of over 100 mills. 

Tax delinquency, once started, forms a vortex into which other properties not 
yet delinquent are being constantly sucked in. As more land becomes tax de- 
linquent, heavier taxes are shifted to solvent taxpayers, driving one after another 
into delinquency. Several counties have been able to collect no more than one- 
half of the taxes levied during the last 12 years. Some individual township 
and school districts reached a delinquency of over 00 percent. 

In some counties of northern Minnesota, as much as 05 percent of their gross 
land area is found to pay no taxes to the support of the local government. 
This throws the full burden of running the local government on the remaining 
35 percent of the land, and on the homes, Industries, and business establish- 
ments. Part of even this remaining property is delinquent for 1 to 4 years of 
taxes and threatens to reduce even further the already meager tax base. 

Of the forty or forty-five million acres of so-called wild land in the cut-over 
region, 21,000,000 acres, or nearly one-half, have become tax delinquent. Of these, 
about 13,000,000 acres have been purchased by the Federal Government for 
national forests, or have become State or county forests. The remaining 
8.000,000 acres are practically no man's laud. Without State and Federal aid, 
the local governments would be unable to carry on their functions. 

Lahor miyrafion. — No other region illustrates the relation between migra- 
tion and economic opportunity as does the northern Lake States. As has 
already been shown, when mining and lumbering were Iior.ming there was a 
great influx of labor into the region. During the 30 years between 1880 and 
1010 the population had more than quadrupled. Beginning with 1920, when 
the output of the copijer mines shrank almost to nothing and mechanization 
of the iron mines threw out more tli'an half of their workers, and the sawmills 
began to close, there began a gradual exodus of workers from the i-egion. As 
a result of this there was a decline in the population between 1920 and 1930 
in most of the cut-over region. Beginning, however, with 1930, when the 
opportunities for employment in the cities as a result of the industrial depres- 
sion had decreased, there became manifest a back-to-the-land movement. In 
northern Minnesota, for instance, some 17,.50O people had moved to farms be- 
tween 1929 and 1934. A slight increase in population has been noticed since 
1930 in northern Wisconsin and northern Michigan. Some came from dis- 
tressed agricultural ai-eas in North and South Dakota, and a considerable group 
came from cities of over 10,000 population. This increase in the population of 
northern counties was due to a return to the land of people who had failed to 
find work in the cities and to the discouragement of the normal tendency of 
young people to drift toward the cities. 

Most of the migrants were industrial laborers seeking refuge during the 
depression. A lai'ge number of these migrants are squatters and are past 45 
years of age, and almost half of them are on relief. 

The counties into which there is an influx of such migrants naturally resent 

their coming, since it increases their relief load and tends to create rural slums. 

Some of these migrants actually buy little farms with the hope that they can 

make a living. , The re.sult is that there are a great mar.y small farmers" who 

260370— 40— pt. 3 16 



;[Q4g INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

must seek work off the farm to make a precarious living. Some of them are 
only farmers in name. 

There are today in the cut-over region whole communities that are simply 
stranded— potential migrants for the first opportunity that presents itself, but 
at present immobile because they have no place to go. 

Employment situation.— K survey made by the United States Forest Service 
in 1939 showed that within the 76 counties of the cut-over region there are 
412,400 breadwinners. Of these, 337,000 have some regular work — in public 
forests, Federal and State, 500; in forest industries, 58,170; in farming, 111,010; 
in other industries, largely mining, 72,460; in other services and trade, 94,860. 
The remaining 75,000 heads of families are on relief of one kind or another. 
Of these, iS,000 are permanent relief cases, 45,000 are on W. P. A., and 15,000 
are unemployed and in need of work. In other words, about 18 percent of 
the entire population is dependent on W. P. A., relief, or in need of work. 

The road to eeonomic independence. — The present economic plight of the people 
in the northern Lakq States, in my opinion, must be ascribed not so much to 
lack of natural resources as to the lack of opportunitie.s for the large mass of 
the population, misdirected land-use policies of the past, and the feeble efforts 
of today to correct these policies. The northern Lake States region has been 
used for a long time as a backward colony from which raw materials were 
exported without contributing to any extent to the permanent l)uilding up of 
the region itself. Although the cream of the natural resources has been largely 
skimmed, there are still ample resources left in the cut-over region to supix^rt 
a larger and more prosperous population than there is now. provided these re- 
sources are developed principally for the benefit of the people living in the 
region. 

Here are some of the opportunities : Timber growing in most European 
countries is recognized as an economic opportunity, as agriculture, for instance, 
is in this country. From 50 to 100 acres of ir.tensively managed forest give 
permanent employment to 1 man for a year. We cannot exi)ect at present such 
intensive timber culture in rliis country, but let us a«ume that if we adopted 
some semblance of ])ernianent forestry, a thousand acres could give employment 
to 1 person per year. This is from 10 to 20 times the size of the forest area 
which gives employment to 1 man per year in Europe. The 45,000,000 acres of 
forest land would immediately provide permanent employment to some 45,1100 
persons in addition to the 58 000 persons already gainfully employed in the 
woods, mills, and pulp and paper plants. 

Seventy percent of the entire volume of commercial timber in the cut-over 
region is in industrial or speculative ownership (this does not include tlie farm 
woods). Half of this is in the form of large private holdings of 10,000 acres 
or more and is controlled by about 75 owners. Whoever controls these timber 
resources controls to a large extent the economic destiny of the region. Should 
they choose to adopt timber growing as a permanent policy, the economic sta- 
bility of the people working in the woods, in the mills, and other wood-using 
industries could be more or less assured. If they choose to follow the old 
policies, as most of them do, of cutting out and getting out, the economic se- 
curity of labor will be made still more uncertain. 

Here is an actual concrete example of what management of forests on a 
permanent basis means to the lumber industry and the workers in it. 

Sweden has a forest area of about 02,000.000 acres — not very much larger 
than the forest area in the whole Lake States, which is about 55,000.(100 acres. 
Only for a few years, some 40 years ago, when we still had abundant forests, 
did "the annual cut reach 10,000,000,000 feet, and it has been declining ever 
since. The annual cut today from these 55.000,000 acres is about I14 billion 
board feet, including pulpwood. The Swedish forests, after more than a 
century of logging, are today producing 7,000,000,000 feet of lumber each year, 
and this yield is maintained and even increased from year to year; while in 
the Lake States, if the present destructive processes still go on. our 55,000.00i) 
acres soon will not be able to maintain an annual cut of even 1,(K10,000,000 feet. 

In Sweden today, with a forest acreage not nmch greater than ours, there 
are employed some 400,000 men in cutting and transporting logs, and in the 
manufacture of lumber and pulp, as against 69,000 in the forest industries of 
the Lake States. 



ixterstatf: migration 1049 

Sweden, besides meeting all its own domestic needs, exports forest prfiducts to 
the value of $45.0(]0,()< a year. The Lake States not only do not meet their own 
domestic needs, but import some lumber and large quantities of pulpwood and 
pulp. 

Take the mining industry. Millions of tons of ore are shipped out from the re- 
gion to be smelted somewhere in Pittsburgh or Cleveland. Suppose at least some 
of this ore were processed into pig iron and steel within the region itself. What 
new opportunities would be created for the employment of local labor! At the 
same time it would enhance the prosiiects of utilizing the low-grade ore which 
at present remains unused. 

The agricultural potentialities of the region are only scantily developed, since, 
as has already been pointed out. only about 5,700,000 acres are in actual cultiva- 
tion. It is possibly risky to encourage expansion of agriculture in the old 
conventional wa.v — an individual farmer on a lirtle piece of land struggling to 
make a living through his individual efforts, when even farmers on good land 
farther south have a hard time of it. With cooperative farming, however, on 
land leased from the Federal Government, States, or counties, with no mort- 
gages facing the settlers, with machinery bought cooperatively, and cooperative 
marketing of the products, with pai-t-time work in the woods, mills, or some 
other industi-ies, a new chapter might be written in the agricultural de\elopment 
of the region. 

The recreational industry could be given a new impetus if facilities were 
created for the low-income groups to enjoy the summer climate, the woods, the 
lakes, and the fresh air of the northern Lake States region. At present, with 
half of the population of the United States earning less than a thousand dollars a 
year, these I'ecreational facilities, except for those living in the immediate vicinity, 
are largely an inaccessible territoi-y. 

Most of all, however, the region needs some new industries utilizing the 
available raw materials. There are many small forest industries which could be 
built up in the cut-over region today if they were encouraged and even sub- 
sidized at first by the public itself. The slashings left after logging which feed 
the forest fires c-onld be converted into a source of readily utilizable fuel. The 
souvenirs made of wood and offered to the tourists, now coming largely from 
Japan, could and should be all manufactured in the region itself. With wood- 
craft skill not yet entirely obliterated in the native population, especially among 
the hidians. many useful articles could be made of local wood. 

While fuel wood for fireplaces is becoming a luxury in the larger cities, mil- 
lions of cords of it rot in the woods only 100 or IfiO miles away. With splendid 
highways and highly developed trucking, it is hard to believe that some way 
could not be found by which this large supply of fuel could be made availal)le 
to a large mimber of people in the towns and cities. The possibilities of utilizing 
such species as aspen and jack pine in the manufacture of pulp, paper, and 
cellulose in general could be greatly increased, as well as utilization of these 
woods for construction purposes of all kinds. If private capital, because of the 
risks involved, is not attracted by these pos.sibilities, the public has enough at 
stake to justify making the initial moves itself. 

The moral of it all is that the present sparse population of the cut-over region, 
much of the unemployment, and the financial difficulties of the people are not 
due to lack of resources but to lack of opportunities, and man-made impediments 
for the natural growth of the region. No satisfactory solution can be attained 
except on the basis of wealth production, adequate supp<n't, and a reasonable 
standard of living within every area in which people live. It may be agricultural, 
industrial, oi- commercial, or a combination, so long as it is really productive. 
Under favoi-jible conditions, I cannot see why the cut-over region could not support 
a density of jiopulation similar to that of Sweden. Finland, and Norway, and 
that means a population of from two to two and one-half million. 

TESTIMONY OF RAPHAEL ZON— Resumed 

Mr. OsMERS. I wonder if yon would just tell the committee about 
the area, briefly, based on the statement which you have submitted and 
which is included in our record. 

Mr. Zox. Yes. 



]^Q50 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

AREA AND BACKGROUND OF CUT-O^'ER REGION 

Mr. OsMERS. Would ^^oii tell us about the area and extent of the 
regicai. to begin Avith? 

Mr. ZoN. The cut-over region is confined to the northern portions 
of Michigan. Wisconsin, and Minnesota. It embraces an area esti- 
mated at from 76 to 80 counties. 

Mr. OsMEKs. In those States? 

Mr. ZoN. In those States. It contains about 57,000,000 acres. 

Mr. OsMERS. Yes. 

Mr. ZoN. About one and a half times the size of New England. 

Mr. OsMERS. Would you describe briefly the history of the region 
when it was known as the Land of Opportunity? 

Mr. ZoN, Well, as we all know, these Northern States have been 
endowed by nature with very rich natural resources, lands, waters, 
forests, fish and what not. During the period of greatest development 
of those resources, there was a tremendous influx of population from 
the East. 

Mr. OsMERs. Yes. 

Mr. ZoN. During the period between 1880 and 1900. in two decades, 
the population increased almost 250 percent. Everything was going 
fine. Then, because of the uncontrolled exploitation of the natural 
resources and some other economic factors that entered in. the whole 
thing again went down, and there started a great exodus of a great 
deal of the population. 

Mr. OsMERS. Tell us this. Dr. Zon: What is the present economic 
condition of the cut-over region? 

Mr. ZoN. Pretty bad. Here is a land which I still consider to be 
very ricli in natural resources. Of course, they cut out the pine. That 
was the basis of the early lumbering industry. We still have some 
other kinds of trees which in the old days were never considered eco- 
nomically important, which are coming into use now because of the 
development of the paper industry. 

In Sweden and Norway the country would still be considered to be 
a country flowing with milk and honey, whereas we consider it 
a distressed area. We cannot consider a region which produces 88 
percent of all the iron mined in the United States as a terrible country. 

Mr. OsMERS. No. Obviously not. 

]Mr. ZoN. And yet conditions are very bad. 

RISE AND DECLINE OF LUMBER INDUSTRY 

Mr. OsMERS. Would you describe for us the rise and the decline of 
the lumber industry, and what consequences that has brought with it ? 

Mr. ZoN. Well, the lumber industry started in the latter part of the 
nineteenth century, and in the course of about 40 years, it ran its 
course. I thir.k it reached its peak about between 1890 and 1900, or 
something like that. At that time there were 117,000 workers, lumber- 
jacks, working in the sawmills and woods. 

Mr. OsMERS. AVliat Avas the number? 

Mr. ZoN. 117.000. In 1933 there were only 12,000, and those were 
working on a part-time basis. The worst part of it is not the shrinkage 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1051 

in the miniber of people emj)loyed, })Ht the destruction of the forests. 
This has clianoed the whole land's use. Most of this land was owned 
by large lumber companies. After they cut off the timber the land 
was burned, and they tried to pass it over into agriculture. For a 
decade or so, they tried to force land settlement, which collapsed. 

Then they began to abandon this land. Today there are out of the 
57,000.000 acres. 21.000.000 acres that are tax delinquent. 

Mr. OsMERs. 21,000.000 acres are tax delinquent? 

Mr. ZoN. Yes. That means the owners have abandoned that land. 
When the owners abandon land, the remaining property which is still 
subject to taxation has to carry all of the cost of the government. 
That increases taxes tremendously. In Mimiesota. some parts of Min- 
nesota, it resulted in an increase in hundreds of mills. There are 
some counties in which 70 percent of the land is tax delinquent, and 
the remaining 30 percent has to carry all the normal costs of the 
county. 

Mr. OsMERS. During the depression, was there an influx of labor 
into that land ? 

INCREASED IX-MIGRATION ] 9 3 d-l » 3 5 

Mr. Zox. During the period from 1930 to 1935 people who had gone 
to the cities began to flock back to the land. Every abandoned shack 
and every abandoned lumber camp was occupied. They were mostly 
people who had come from industrial cities, mostly cities over 10,000 
population. 

Mr. OsMERS. I see. 

Mr. Zox. Now, there has been a gradual increase in population, but 
that onh' increases the rural burden, because these people are chiefly 
squatters. The}^ do not have any money. They become a burden on 
the county, and the county does not like that. 

Mr. OsMERS. Some people consider the cut-over region as a stranded 
area, which raises the problem of migration. What are your views on 
that? 

Mr. Zox. That is perfectly true. There are about 5,000 miners that 
would like to go somewhere, but there is no place to go. They are 
stranded. 

Mr. OsMERS. What do the people in that area think of these migrants 
that come in there ? 

Mr. ZoN. The counties do not like them, because they become a bur- 
den, a relief burden. They do not like it, because it is not bona flde 
settlement of anv kind. If opportunities increase in the city, they will 
all go back to the city. 

LAND OWNERSHIP 

Mr. OsMERS. What is the present situation with regard to land own- 
ership there ? You touched on that brieflv before. 

Mr. ZoN. Out of 51,000,000 acres, 21,000^000 acres are tax delinquent. 
Mr. OsMERs. It is tax delinquent, but not publicly owned? 



1052 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. ZoN. Not all of it. Some of it went to the National Government, 
for national-forest purposes. The States and counties got it back via 
the tax-delinquent route. In Wisconsin, tax-delinquent land reverts 
to the counties. In Michigan and Minnesota it reverts to the State. 

Mr. OsMERS. Yes. 

Mr. ZoN. Some of this land that reverted to the State and counties 
was made into county forests and State forests, but a great deal of it, 
8,000,000 acres out of the 21,000,000 acres, is practically no man's land. 

Mr. OsMERs. I see. 

Mr. ZoN. It is a very peculiar thing. The title to that tax-delinquent 
land is a very peculiar thing. In Minnesota tax-delinquent land 
reverts to the State, but the county retains a 90-percent equity of the 
taxes, and the State cannot do anything with the land until the State 
has extinguished the 90-percent equity of the county. The county 
does not do anything with it. It is no-man's land. 

Mr. OsMERS. In your statement you have some rather sensible rec- 
ommendations as to what steps can be followed in this area to elimi- 
nate it as a source of migration. 

Mr. ZoN. Yes. 

RECOMMENDATIONS FOR FEDERAL ACTION 

Mr. OsMERS. I wonder if you would tell the committee, particularly, 
of course, with respect to what the Federal Government can do, what 
can be done toward stabilizing that area? 

Mr. ZoN. Now. there are about 31,000,000 acres of land still pri- 
vately owned, and I think about 15,000,000 acres are farm lands. The 
other 60,000,000 acres of the best land belongs to large lumber com- 
panies. About 75 large companies own practically all of the remain- 
ing virgin timber in the Lake States. 

TIMBER CONSERVATION 

If the bad results come as a result of this uncontrolled exploitation 
of the forests, it stands to reason that the reverse side of it is to stop 
that reckless cutting of the timber. I personally believe the first thing 
for the Federal Government to do. because I do not see how the State 
can do it, is somehow to prevent the devastation of the remaining 
marketable timber in that region. 

Mr. OsMERs. You mean, under the heading of national conservation 
of resources? 

Mr. ZoN. Yes. 

Mr. OsMERS. Or in that spirit? 

Mr. ZoN. Yes. That could be worked out with the lumber com- 
panies and the Government. The Government could provide for 
fire protection, and they in return will undertake not to devastate 
their land, and not to cut it clean so the land may continue to produce. 

Mr. OsMERs. In the State of Minnesota, would it be possible to take 
people and settle them on the land Avhich they have acquired through 
tax delinquency? 

Mr. ZoN. Yes. They could under the law. and that is what they are 
doing, but they are doing very poorly. Under the law, when the land 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1053 

reverts to the State, they have a ri^rht to chissify the land. Land 
suited for conservation is no longer to be sold, but land they think has 
agricultural possibilities, they can sell again. 

Mr. OsMERS. I see. 

Mr. ZoN. Since all the county commissions are really the owners 
of the land, to get some revenue from the land, they try to sell that 
land again. 

Mv. OsMERS. Whether it meets those requirements or not ? 

Mr. ZoN. Yes. They are very lenient in their classification. 

Mr. OsMERS. Of agricultural landi' 

Mr. ZoN. Yes. Most of this land is covered with timber. The law 
requires that the land and the timber should be valued separately. 
That is not always done. The result is that many people buy this 
land under very liberal conditions. It used to be $80 per forty. They 
have reduced it to $20. You have to pa}^ down only 10 percent, and 
that means you can get it for $2. Lots of people pay the $2, get the 
land which has timber, devastate the rest of the timber, and then 
abandon it again, so the land comes back again in worse condition. 

Mr. OsMERS. In other words, they get the timber for $2 ? 

Mr. ZoN. They get the timber for $2 and that is all there is to it. 
Some county commissioners are doing a better job. Most of the 
counties, howevei", are so hard up they are anxious to put the land on 
the tax roll. Therefore they will do anything to sell it. That is iii 
Minnesota. 

Mr. OsMERS. If a resettlement program was entered into, what 
agency or agencies would be best fitted to deal with that program '( 

Mr. ZoN. It has been stated that the National Government has 
5.000.000 acres of national forests in the three States. 

Mr. OsMERs. In this area? 

Mr. ZoN. In this Lake States region ; yes. 

Mr. OsMERS. I mean in the cut-over area. 

Mr. ZoN. In the cut-over area ; yes. 

Mr. OsMERS. Yes. 

EESETTLEMENT ON GOVERNMENT-OWNED LAND 

Mr. ZoN. Now, it seems to me, instead of excluding settlers there 
from the portions which are good agricultural land, I do not see why 
the Government could not let people settle on that agricultural land. 

Mr. OsMERS. You mean in the national forests? 

Mr. ZoN. In the national forests; yes. 

Mr. OsMERs. Yes. 

Mr. Zox. Of course, they might not make an economic existence from 
agriculture, but by working in addition on roads, at fire protection, 
reforestation, cutting, and so forth, they could make a fairly good 
living. 

Mr. OsMERS. Yes. 

Mr. ZoN. Some national forests are doing that. Some settlers who 
live outside of the forest have been told that they could go over 
into the forest, where they gave them land of better quality than they 
had outside. There we have arranged our work in the Avoods in such 
a Avay as to provide work for those settlers. This we could have 



1054 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



done on a mucli laroer scale, except' for the C. C. C. When they 
bring the C. C. C. in there, it interferes \yith that policy. 

Mr. OsMERS. Yon mean by sending the C. C. C. boys nito this area, 
possible employment for local residents has been eliminated ( 

Mr. ZoN. Not eliminated, bnt rednced greatly. 

Mr. OsMERS. Rednced? 

Mr. ZoN. Yes. While I believe a great deal in the C. C. C. itself, 
in this particnlar instance it did conflict with the interest of the local 
people. They had as many as 30,000 C. C. C. boys working in the 
Lake States region. 

Mr. OsMERS. What type of work have the C. C. C. boys been doing 
in this area — the cut -over region? 

Mr. ZoN. Thev have been helping to cnt forests, build roads and 
trails, bnild telephone lines, cut out trees, helping with the fire pro- 
tection, and helping with the planting of trees. They have planted 
many millions of trees, and have done similar work. 

Mr. OsMERS. In your statement, which I have read with a great 
deal of interest, yoii make some reference to a program that is now 
being used in Sweden. 

Mr. Zox. Yes. 

Mr. OsMERS. Would you care to tell the committee the nature of the 
forest conservation program there? 

Mr. ZoN. The main thing is, of course, not to cut more timber 
than the forest can grow. That is exactly the reverse of what hap- 
pened here. W^e simply cut off the timber vxithout regard to its 
growth. In Europe, and in Sweden especially, they restrict then- 
cutting. The strange part of it is that some of the best forests are 
forests belonging to private companies— mining companies, for 
instance. 

Mr. OsMERS. In Sweden? 

]Mr. Zox. In Sweden. The forests have been developed, of course, 
in the course of many years. You cannot do it overnight, because it 
takes manv years for trees to grow. They have gradually developed 
a system of' forestry which they do not take otf any more than the 
forest grows and the forest can "maintain. In that way the mills can 
provide stable employment. They do exactly what I have suggested 
they could do here. They deliberately invite settlers to come within 
the Government forests and provide them with parcels of land, so they 
have part-time agriculture and part-time forest work. 

Mr. OsMERS. Does the Government pay in cash for the work they 
do in the forest, to augment their income from tlie agricultural end 
of their operations? 

Mr. ZoN. Yes. 

Mr. OsMERS. How long does it take for a program of that nature, if 
it were instituted in a cut-over region such as we are discussing here, 
before the cycle has been completed and the trees are ready to harvest, 
so to speak ? 

Mr. ZoN. Well, we have a hiatus right there. We have very little 
marketable timber left. Then we have a hiatus there of trees of 

middle age 

Mr. OsMERS. Yes. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1Q55 

Mr. ZoN. Or middle size. 

Mr. OsMERs. Yes. 

Ml'. ZoN. Tlien we have, as a result of fire protection, a larjje acreage 
of second orowth comiiis: on. If we could carry ovei* the next 
20 years, we will have lots of timber again in the Lake States. The 
whole thino- is to cut the old timber sparingly, and in that way spread 
it out for the next 20 years. 

]Mr. OsMERS. Yes. 

Mr. Zox. In that way you will give the middle-aged trees a chance 
to come in to the marketable size, so they will be ready for commercial 
use. I think if we could somehow tide over for the next 20 years we 
can gradually approach a permanent basis. 

Mr. OsMERS. You think it would take a 20-year cycle, starting from 
5'our present situation? 

Mr. ZoN. Yes. 

Mr. OsMERs. Of course, along with that goes a very wide planting 
program ? 

Mr. ZoN. Yes. 

Mr. OsMERS. As you harvest the old trees, you plant new trees ? 

Mr. Zox. There are 7,000.000 acres to plant up. 

Mr. OsMERS. 7,000,000 acres to plant up? 

Mr. ZoN. Yes. 

Mr. OsMERs. There is just one other phase of the cut-over regic^n 
I think the committee would like to hear about. That is the iron 
mining. 

^Ir. ZoN. Yes. 

Mr, OsMERS. There is considerable iron mining going on there today, 
is there not? 

Mr. ZoN. Yes ; 88 percent of all iron ore mined in the United States 
is mined right there. 

LABOR SITUATION IX MINIXG IXDUSTRY 

Mr. OsMERS. Tell me about tlie labor situation in the mining 
industry. 

Mr. Zox. It is pretty bad. 

Mr. OsMERS. Why is that ? 

Mr. Zox. There are two things: copper mines and iron mines. 

Mv. OsMERs. Yes. 

Mr. Zox. The copper mines in Utah and the copper miries in the 
Southwest ai"e not so dee]5. They can be mined much more cheaply. 
African copper also has been coming into competition. African cop- 
per can be laid in Liverpool at 5 cents a pound. The cost of mining 
in northern Michigan was never less than Ifi^ cents. 

Mr. OsMERS. Never less than III/2 cents ? 

Mr. Zox. No. At one time the copper mines in Michigan ]:)roduced 
96 percent of all the copper. Today they produce only 9 percent. At 
one time there wei-e about 75,000 people who depended on copper mines. 
Today they employ about 1,200. 

Mr. OsMERS. Going back to iron mining, you said that the iron mines 
produce 88 percent ; is that correct ? 



lQ5g INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. ZoN. The iron mines are still very active. As a resnlt of tech- 
nological improvement, electrification and so forth, the ontpnt of 
the iron has increased abont 50 percent in the last 30 years. Yet 
they employ fewer people. Where, in 1910, the iron mines employed 
35,000 people, today with a 50-percent greater ontpnt, they employ 
only 18,000 people. ' 

Mr. OsMERS. Do yon have any idea or any figure in mind as to the 
total population of the area we have been discussing, which embraces 
these 76 counties? 

Mr. ZoN. About one and a half million people. 

Mr. OsMERS. Only 18,000 of them are employed in 

Mr. ZoN. That is the total population. 

Mr. OsMERS. Yes. The mining population is about 18,000? 

Mr. ZoN. Yes. 

Mr. OsMERS. Which, of course, is very, very small compared to the 
total? 

Mr. ZoN. Yes. I personally think — perhaps I am too o])timi>.tic— 
but I believe the cut-over region can stabilize its present population 
and, in addition, if we are wise in our land policy, Ave can make it 
a land of greater opportunity. I do not see why this region — if you 
compare it with Finland, Norway, and Sweden — could not support 
two and a half or three million people. Their land is not a bit better 
than our land. 

Mr. OsMERs. In other words, you think, with ])roper planning, 
the future of the cut-over region is bright ? 

Mr. ZoN. Not onl}- as a reservoir for migrants, but really to estab- 
lish a population. 

Mr. OsMERS. That is all I have. 

Mr. Parsons. Are there any other questions? (No response.) The 
statement which you have pre]iared. Dr. Zon, entitled, "A Statement 
on the Cut-over Region, Breeding Place of Migrants,"' has been re- 
ceived as part of our formal record. 

Mr. Parsons. Than.k you very much. Dr. Zon. 

(Whereupon Dr. Raphael Zon was excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF ANDREW BATJES 

Mr. Parsons. The next witness will be Andrew Batjes. Congress- 
man Curtis will interrogate you. 

Mr. Curtis. State your name and address for the record, please, 
Mr. Batjes. 

Mr. Batjes. Andrew Batjes. 

Mr. Curtis. Speak louder, please, so the reporter can hear you. 

Mr. Batjes. Andrew Batjes. 

Mr. Curtis. How do you spell your last name? 

Mr. Batjes. B-a-t-j-e-s. 

Mr. Curtis. What is your address ? 

Mr. Batjes. 1327 George Street. 

Mr. Curtis. How old are you? 

Mr. Batjes. Forty-one. 

Mr. Curtis. Are you married ? 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1057 

Mr. Batjes. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Do yon have any chili Iren? 

Mr. Batjes. Five. 

Mr. Curtis. How old is the oldest one ? 

Mr. Batjes. Seventeen. 

Mr. Curtis. How old is the yonnfjest one? 

Mr. Batjes. A year old. 

Mr. Curtis. How many of them are in school? 

Mr. Batjes. Two. 

Mr. Curtis. The two older ones? 

Mr. Batjes. No. The oldest one is working. 

Mr. Curtis. How far in school did she go? 

Mr. Batjes. It is a boy. 

Mr. Curtis. A 17-year-old boy? 

Mr. Batjes. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. How far did he go ? 

Mr. Batjes. As far as seventh grade. 

Mr. Curtis. Are yon employed now? 

Mr. Batjes. No, sir. 

Mr. Curtis. How long have you lived in Chicago? 

Mr. Batje-s. I was born and raised hei-e on the West Side. 

Mr. Curtis. At what age did yon begin working ? 

Mr. Batjes. Fourteen. 

Mr. Curtis. What did you work at then ? 

Mr. Batjes. I worked for Marshall Field & Co. as an errand boy in 
the store. 

Mr. Curtis. At what age were you married? 

Mr. Batjes. Twenty-two. 

Mr. Curtis. What were you doing then ? 

Mr. Batjes. Working with a plumber, as plumber's helper. 

Mr. Curtis. What year were you married? 

Mr. Batjes. 1922. 

Mr. Curtis. How long after 1922 did you have continuous employ- 
ment, or nearly so? 

Mr. Batjes. Up to 1931 or 1930. Then I went on relief, since, and 
have been back and forth. 

Mr. Curtis. Up to 1932 you were working, usually doing plumbing 
work ? 

Mr. Batjes. Yes; and truck driving and things like that. 

Mr. Curtis. Were you one of the, what we might term, skilled 
plumbers ? 

Mr. Batjes. No; just a helper. 

Mr. Curtis. What wages did you get during that time? 

Mr. Batjes. Seventy-five cents an hour. 

Mr. Curtis. How many hours did yon work? 

Mr. Batjes. Eight hours. 

Mr. Curtis. Yon were raising your family at that time? 

Mr. Batjes. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Were you buying a home? 

Mr. Batjes. No. 

Mr. Curtis. You were living 



IQ^g INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. Batjes. Just renting. 

Mr. Curtis. Did you live in an apartment house? 

Mr. Batjes. We just rented a flat. 

Mr. Curtis. Did you say it was in 1933 that you became unemployed I 

Mr. Batjes. No; 1930 or 1931. 

Mr. Curtis. 1930 or 1931 ? 

Mr. Batjes. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Have you had any work in private enterprise since then? 

Mr. Batjes. Not to speak of ; no. 

Mr. Curtis. You have had a little bit now and then ? 

Mr. Batjes. Noav and then. 

Mr. Curtis. Have you ever souoht public relief? 

Mr. Batjes. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. When was the first that vou had to do that? 

Mr. Batjes. About 1931. 

Mr. Curtis. Did they put you on relief? 

Mr. Batjes. No ; I got a box at that time. 

Mr. Curtis. You got Avhat ? 

Mr. Batjes. A box. They were dishing out boxes at that time. 

Mr. Curtis. Boxes of provisions ? 

Mr. Batjes. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Well, did you get any W. P. A. work? 

Mr. Batjes. I didn't get any W. P. A. work until 1933. Then I got 
W. P. A. work. 

Mr. Curtis. Are any of your children working? 

Mr. Batjes. Just one boy. 

Mr. Curtis. What does he make ? 

Mr. Batjes. $10 a week. 

Mr. Curtis. Judging from the information given me when you were 
interviewed, I take it you left to go away to get some farm v.ork when 
you could ? 

Mr. Batjes. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. What States did you work in ? 

Mr. Batjes. Wisconsin. 

Mr. Curtis. What kind of work Avere you doing on the farm ? 

Mr. Batjes. I was doing general work there, picking potatoes, corn, 
helping to thresh, build silos, and things like that. 

]?^Ir. Curtis. Would it be year around work? 

Mr. Batjes. No. Seasonal work. 

Mr. Curtis. Seasonal work? 

Mr, Batjes. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. You would not take your family with you. or did 
you ? 

Mr. Batjes. I had the family out there ; yes, sir. 

Mr. Curtis. Did you establish a residence there? 

Mr. Batjes. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Curtis. How long did you live in Wisconsin? 

Mr. Batjes. From June until about November. 

Mr. Curtis. Of what year? 

Mr. Batjes. 1939. 

Mr. Curtis. June until November? 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1059 

Mr. Batjes. Yes. 

Mr. C'lrtis. You made enough money to get along during that 
time ? 

Mr. Batjes. I done everything I could; yes. 

Mr. CrRTis. Were you able to make enough wages to have any- 
thing saved up when you came back? 

Mr. Batjes. Xo: I even inquired for relief out there. 

Mr. Curtis. Did 3'ou get any ? 

Mr. Batjes. I got some. 

Mr. Curtis. In Wisconsin ? 

Mr. Batjes. Yes; about $86 worth. 

Mr. Curtis. Did you make any incjuiry about the possibility of 
your getting relief if you left the State and then came back? 

Mr. Batjes. Yes. I came back and I inquired about relief. They 
told me they couldn't give me any. 

Mr. Curtis. Why would they not give you any relief ? 

Mr. Batjes. Because I left the State, and I liad to be here 3 vears 
in order to get relief. 

Mr. Curtis. Did you have any talk with the relief officials before 
you went ? 

Mr. Batjes. Yes: I did. I told them about my case. They said, 
"If you leave, it is of your own accord." 

Mr. Curtis. They told jon if you wanted to take this seasonal 
employment, you could ? ' 

iMr. Batjes. Yes. I was trying to better nwself , see ? 

Mr, Curtis. Yes. At the'^time you talked with them, did you 
have 111 mmd just going for a few months of farm work? 

Mr. Batjes. Xo : I intended to stay there. 

Mr. Curtis. I see. 

Mr. Batjes. But it turned out that it happened to be one of 
these lean seasons. 

Mr. Curtis. You feel from your experience that where people are 
on relief and have an opportunity to go some place and get a job, 
they should be permitted to do so without losing their residence « 

Mr. Batjes. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Is that what you think ? 

Mr. Batjes. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. If you had not wanted to work, vou would have stayed 
right here on relief in Chicago ? 

Mr. Batjes. Yes. I would have stayed, if I knew something like 
that was going to happen. I would never have left. 

Mr. Curtis. How nuich relief were you getting at the time you left 
for Wisconsin ? 

Mr. Batjes. $55 a month. 

Mr. Curtis. $55 a month? 

INIr. Batjes. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Your boy was making $10 a week? 

Mr. Batjes. He wasn't working at that time. 

Mr. Curtis. He was not working at that time? 

Mr. Batjes. No. 

Mr. Curtis. What did you have to pay for rent ? 



1060 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



Mr. Batjes. Then I ojot $17. 

Mr. Curtis. $55 and $17? 

Mr. Batjes. No. I got a surplus check of about $6, besides my $55. 

Mr. Curtis. For surphis commodities? 

Mr. Batjes. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. From the food depot? 

Mr. Batjes. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Did you ever work for any of that, or was that direct 
relief ? 

Mr. Batjes. No. That was direct relief. 

Mr. Curtis. You could have stayed there and continued t(j draw 
that, but vou wanted to earn what you could? 

Mr. Batjes. I wanted to get off of relief. I figured I could do 
better for myself, and give somebody else my job. 

Mr. Curtis. Did the people in Wisconsin raise any question about 
your not being a resident there ? 

Mr. Batjes. They did in a way ; yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Did'thev deny you any relief? 

Mr. Batjes. No: thev didn't. I got it right off the bat. They 
asked me if I intended 'to go back. I says, "Yes." I says, '"Yes; if 
there is any possible chance." 

Mr. Curtis. How long did you draw relief in Wisconsin ? 

Mr. Batjes. About a month. 

Mr. Curtis. About a month ? 

Mr. Batjes. That is all. 

Mr. Curtis. What made you decide to come back to Chicago? 

Mr. Batjes. Well. I couldn't make a dollar no more, so I decided 
to come back. 

Mr. Curtis. Were you in a small town ? 

Mr. Batjes. We were in a small town. 

Mr. Curtis. Was the cost of living as great as it is in Chicago ? 

Mr. Batjes. The food was ; yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Bent is cheaper ? 

Mr. Batjes. Yes. i , i « 

Mr. Curtis. You had no work to speak of since you came back here ? 

Mr. Batjes. No. I have been selling flowers, peddling telephone 
books, and things like that. 

Mr. Curtis. Do vou have any work in sight now ? 

Mr. Batjes. No.*^ I have an application in at these here employment 

Mr. Curtis. Are you trained in any particular other than the 
plumbing training you have had? 

Mr. Batjes. I can drive a truck and do labor work. 

Mr. Curtis. How are you living now? 

Mr. Batjes. I have a flat now. 

Mr. Curtis. Where do you get your money? 

Mr. Batjes. Charities, 

Mr. Curtis. What charity organization is assisting you? 

Mr. Batjes. United Charities. 

Mr. Curtis. United Charities? 

Mr. Batjes. Yes ; the north side branch, at 1001 Leland Avenue. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION ^qq^ 

Mr. Curtis. How much do they provide vou ^ 

Mr. Batjes. $8.58. 

-Mr. Curtis. xV week? 

Mr. Batjes. A week. 

Mr. CuTtTis. Your boy makes $10 a week? 

Mr. Batjes. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Does he stay at home ? 

Mr. Batjes. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Is he a good boy ? 

Mr. Batjes. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. He helps you get along? 

^Ir. Batjes. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. I think that is all. 

^Ir. Parsons. Are there any other questions, gentlemen? [No re- 
sponse.] Your case is similar to many others that we have heard 
about. We are trying to get a cross-section of all of these three to 
lour million people that are traveling up and down the country 
1 our case is illustrative, no doubt, of thousands of them. Thank you 
Mr. Batjes. " ' 

(Whereupon, Mr. Batjes was excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES B. MARSHALL, DIRECTOR. DIVISION OF 
GENERAL ADMINISTRATION, INDIANA DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC 
WELFARE, INDIANAPOLIS, IND. 

Ar^^iV^"?^?i^®- ^^'"^ ^'^"^^ witness will be Mr. Charles B. Marshall 
Mr. Marshall, state your full name, address, and official position for 
the record. 

Mr. Marshall. Charles B. Marshall, director, division of creneral 
administiation. Indiana Department of Public Welfare, Indianapolis 
Ind. '■ ' 

c.^P" f t^®?.^®- ^*^" ^^'^ representing, in part, the Governor of the 
btate of Indiana at this hearing? 

^h\ Marshall. I shall introduce a letter from the Governor for 
the record together with a study prepared bv the dei)artment of 
public Avelfare. 

Mr. Parsons. Without objection, they are received for the record. 

State of Indiana. 
Hon. John R. Tolan, i^ t • 

Chairman, Select Committee to luvcstir/ate the 

Interstate Migration of Destitute Citizens, 

House Office Building, ^Yashington, D. O. 
Dkar Congressman : I am enclosing a copy of a study of the migrant-worker 
problem m Indiana for the attention of your committee. Indiana is planning 
to send two representatives from the State welfare department to testify at thp 
Chicago hearing. ^ ^^ <.^ 

The department of public welfare and the State employment service working 
together, have conducted a rather thorough study of the problem. Also the 
regiona director of the Farm Security Administration has given a great deal of 
regK.uil du-ector of the Farm Security Administration has given a great deal of 
attention to migrant workers, and should be able to present valuable material 



]^Qg2 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

The views of the State of Indiana will be presented by officials of the State 
department of public welfare. 
Very truly yours, 

M. Clifford Town send. 

Mr. Parsons. I believe you have a short statement \\hich you desire 
to present to the committee. You have made some helpful suggestions 
here. I have looked it over, and I think it contains some rather bene- 
ficial information. Will you introduce it at this time? 



Statement by the Indiana Uepartment of I'ublic Welfare 
Outline 

1. Migration aud trausient activity in Uidiana. 

2. Uiterstate mis^ration trends as reflected by place of birth data. 

3. Summary of importance of indigents and mental cases to Indiana classified by State 

from which imported. 

4. Summary of deportation of indigents from Indiana by township trustees. 

5. Place of' birth of new cases accepted for assistance under the old-age, blind, and depend- 

ent-cliildreu programs. 

6. Population born in other States living in Indiana.^ 

7. Population born in Indiana living in other States.^ 

Migration and Transient Activity in Indiana 

Effective evaluation of the transient and migration problem as it affects Indiana 
is difficult to determine due to scarcity of data related to the subject. In con- 
sidering the problem it should be remembered that all migrants are not of a 
dependent type and do not necessarily constitute a relief problem. 

With regard to relation with other States, tlie migration figures in Indiana 
show a fairly even balance. In accord with the early population movements, 
which were from east to west in this country, the early census figures sliow that 
the population born in other States living in Indiana came predominantly from 
the Eastern and Southeastern States, with Kentucky and Ohio being particularly 
large contributors, and it was not until the liMlO census that any sizeable numbers 
were sliown as natives of any State to our west. The proportion is still negligible, 
however, as compared to the peoples of eastern origin. 

With regard to migration from the State of persons born in Indiana, this move- 
ment has always been primarily to the west, although Ohio and Micliigan, to our 
north and east, receive a sizeable number of Hoosier migrants. The number of 
persons born in Indiana and living in other States is greater than the number of 
persons born in these States and living in Indiana in all except the Southeastern 
States (Florida excepted due to its resort nature). It is particularly interesting 
to note the great excess of natives of Kentucky and Tennessee who live in 
Indiana over Hoosiers living in Kentucky and Tennessee. 

It may be safely assumed that many individuals who leave their native State 
to go to another do so because of inability to make a livelihood in their present 
location. It is uncertain as to how many of tliese individuals become dependents 
in their new home, although data collected by the State department of public 
welfare reveal that of the total number of new cases accepted for assistance 
under the security aid program in Indiana from November 1936 through December 
1939, over 23 percent were born out of the State. Since many old-age assistance 
recipients, although not natives of the State, may have lived here for many years, 
a mote accurate measure of dependency among recent migrants may be obtained 
by considering aid-to-dependent-children cases where all children are by require- 
ment less than 16 years of age. Of the total children granted assistance during 
this period only 13.2 percent were born outside the State. Five and seven-tenths 
percent of these children were from our neighboring States of Illinois and Ken- 
tucky. The percent of the total individuals granted assistance during the cal- 
endar year 1939 who were born out of the State was higher in the border coun- 
ties than in the balance of the State. 

The effect of transients and migratory workers on the general relief program is 
uncertain. Township trustees, who administer the general relief program in 
Indiana, are loath to grant assistance to individuals who do not have legal settle- 
ment in their township. However, a sizeable number of these nonlegal residents 



1 A series of graphic maps, covering the census decades from 1850 to 1930, inclusive, 
retained in the files of the committee. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION lQg3 

rocoivt' assistance each iiKJuth according to the reports of the Indiana Unemploy- 
ment Relief Commission. It should be pointed out in this connection that these 
individuals are not all interstate transients but that many of them are indi- 
viduals who do not have lesal settlement in the township in which they are 
residinji lint have legal settlement or are residents of the State. 

Records are somewhat incomplete with regard to deportation and importation 
of indigents in this State since trustees may deport indigents to their place of legal 
settlement without clearing through the State department of public welfare. 
However, it is known tvom a 2-mouth sample taken in the latter part of 1938 
by tlie Governor's commission on unemployment relief that trustees deport ap- 
proximately lo5 persons per month, wliile records of the State department of 
public welfare show that l,."i92 dependents and 50 mental patients were returned 
to this State during the period May 1938 through July 1940 upon authorization 
of the State depai'tmenr. 

Data on the number of interstate transients in the State at present are unavail- 
able, although records of the Governor's commission on unemployment relief 
showed from 7r>0 to 2,246 receiving care on selected dates in 1934, while the 
unduplicated total of transients receiving care in 1 month during the period for 
which the Commission has data ranged from 143 in December 1933 to 13,339 
in May 193."). The transient-aid prngrani was discontinued shortly after this 
latter date. 

Transients and migratory workers traditioniilly' follow the seasonal crops 
through the country. This condition exists in Indiana, particularly in the can- 
ning industry, although there is also a lesser demand for harvest labor by farmers 
in rush seasons. This excessive seasonal demand for labor has brought into 
existence certain conditions which tend to throw the economic situation in the 
ct)unties of the canning belt out of balance and which may create social problems 
in the near future. 

In some of the smaller southern counties the canning indiistry demands a 
labor supply greater than that available in the community. There" is, therefore, 
an immigration into these counties for approximately 2 months' work. These 
laborers come from neighl)oring counties to some extent, but they also come from 
neighboring Southern States. The living conditions of these people are poor, 
and they spend very little of their earnings in the community. The Indiana 
State Employment Service reveals that the canning industry is highly seasonal 
and can support its employees for only 4 months of each year. During the 
remaining 8 months there is practically no activity in this industry. A part of 
these migrant workers return to their homes with their savings from the 4 
months' work, and the balance remain in the community, many to become 
dependent on public aid. Data collected by the State planning board for Johnson 
County show that at the time the board's study was made (1935) almost one- 
third of the relief population of Johnson County was of Kentucky origin. It is 
significant that the majority of these families were located near canning factories 
in the county. 

Remedies for problems of this type are extremely difficult. It is vital to the 
canning industry that they have a large supply of cheap labor when their crops 
are ready, and laws prohibiting interstate movement cannot be passed since the 
harmful results of legislation of this type might offset benefits. However, some 
measure of regulation of migration of these mai'ginal families is desirable in 
order that they do not become too great a liability to the communities to which 
they migrate. 

Data collected by the United States Census Bureau show that although there 
were more Indiana-born persons living in other States than there were individuals 
born in other States living in Indiana in both 1920 and 1930, the differeee between 
these numbers in 1930 was 53,601 less than in 1920, a reduction of 19 percent. 
These figures indicate that the trend of migration is now more toward Indiana 
than from Indiana to other States. 

According to the 1930 census, the States showing the greatest excess of their 
native born living in Indiana over Indiana-born residents of their State were 
Kentucky, Tennessee, and Pennsylvania, the excess for Kentucky being 115,414 
individuals. States reporting the greatest excess of Indiana-born residents over 
individuals born in their State living in Indiana were California, 94,205; Kansas, 
30,933; and Illinois, 29.083. 

Over the 10-year period fi'om 1920 to 1930 the States showing the greatest 
numerii-al increase in net migration to Indiana were Kentucky, Missouri, and 
Kansas, while the States in which the number of Indiana-born residents increased 
most in this period over natives of tliose States residing in Indiana were Cali- 
fornia. Ohio, and Michigan. 
, 2W370— 40— pt. 3 17 



1064 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



Ititerstate migration, trends as reflected by place of hirth data 
[1920-30 U. S. Census] 



State 



Total. 



New England: 

Maine 

New Hampshire 

Vermont 

Massacliusetts 

Rhode Island 

Connecticut 

Middle Atlantic: 

New York 

New Jersey-- 

Pennsylvania 

East North Central: 

Ohio 

Illinois 

Michigan 

Wisconsin 

West North Central: 

Minnesota 

Iowa 

Missouri 

North Dakota 

South Dakota 

Nebraska 

Kansas 

South Atlantic: 

Delaware 

M ary land 

District of Columbia 

Virginia 

West Virginia 

North Carolina 

South Carolina 

Georgia 

Florida 

East South Central: 

Kentucky 

Tennessee 

Alabama 

Mississippi 

West South Central: 

Arkansas 

Louisiana 

Oklahoma 

Texas 

Mountain: 

Montana 

Idaho 

Wyoming 

Colorado 

New Mexico 

Arizona- . - 

Utah 

Nevada 

Pacific: 

Washington -- 

Oregon 

California 

In the United States (State not 
reported) 

Born in outlying possessions 



Indiana- 
born indi- 
viduals 
living in 
other 
State? 



1920 census 



286 
174 
194 
2.390 
329 
983 

12, 248 
3,735 
12, 351 

94, 662 

152, 246 

74, 937 

12, 487 

12, 692 
33, 033 
53, 587 
6,802 
6,335 
20, 622 
54,310 

276 
2,189 
4,234 
3,434 
3,890 
1,169 

716 
2,740 
8.467 

31,918 
7,705 
3,742 
2,403 

16, 176 

3,408 

35, 432 

19, 516 

9,859 
6,044 
•3,813 
20,974 
3,289 
4,032 
2,029 
801 

23,000 
14, 347 
61, 249 



Individ- 
uals liv- 
ing in 
Indiana 
born in 
other 
States 



624 
371 
665 

2,639 
431 

1,020 

14, 668 

2,633 

30, 353 

135, 070 

108, 662 

26, 838 

7,466 

2.762 
8,864 
15, 004 
1,024 
761 
3, 422 
8,109 

374 
2,934 

437 
10, 359 
5. 513 
6,273 

948 
3.312 



114,575 

21,772 

5,070 

3,212 

2,660 
1,429 
1,964 
2,450 

546 
203 
213 
1,427 
234 
185 
212 
59 

697 

456 

1,464 

7,469 
92 



Net mi- 
gration 



Indiana- 
born indi- 
viduals 
living in 
other 
States 



+338 
-fl97 
-f471 
+249 
+102 
+37 

+2, 420 

-1,102 

+18,002 

+40, 408 

-43, 584 

-48,099 

-5,021 

-9, 930 
-24, 169 
-38, 583 
-5, 778 
-5,574 
-17,200 
-46,201 

+98 

+745 

-3,797 

+6,926 

+ 1,623 

+5, 104 

+232 

+572 

-7,773 

+82, 657 

+14.067 

+ 1,328 

+809 

-13,516 
-1,979 
-33, 468 
-17,066 

-9,313 
-5,841 
-3, 600 
-19,547 
-3, 055 
-3, 847 
-1,817 
-742 

-22,303 
-13,891 
-59, 785 

+7, 469 
+92 



1930 census 



923, 322 



311 
206 
224 

2.902 
302 

1,375 

17, 280 
5,624 
14,711 

114,611 

172, 902 

109, 967 

14. 673 

10, 583 
23,654 
44,231 
4,542 
4,635 
15, 022 
41,117 

305 
2,749 
3,597 
3,061 
4,301 
1,899 

561 
2,725 
16, 362 

34, 699 
7,387 
3,659 
2,415 

11,830 

3,525 

29. 570 

20, 569 



4,636 
3,298 
18, 082 
3,090 
6,012 
1,627 
851 

20, 891 
13, 601 
96, 172 



Individ- 
uals liv- 
ing in 
Indiana 
born in 
other 
States 



i 694, 287 



675 
404 
598 

3,040 
396 

1,250 

13,411 
2,679 
30, 835 

122, 388 

143, 819 

35, 393 

11,202 

5,751 
13,910 
21,268 
2,239 
1,546 
4,212 
10, 184 

336 
2,474 

560 
9,828 
7,456 
5,456 
1,292 
6,730 
1,681 

150,113 

33. 216 

8,706 

8,736 

6,822 
2, 654 
3,725 
4,823 

1,092 
341 
427 

2,321 

409 

261 

322 

71 

910 

577 

1,967 

5,475 
306 



Net mi- 
gration 



-229,035 +53,601 



+364 j +26 

+198 +1 

+374 1 -97 

+138 -111 

+94 1 -8 

-125 -162 



-3, 869 

-2, 945 

+ 16, 124 

+7, 777 
-29,083 
-74, 574 

-3,471 

-4, 832 
-9,744 
-22,963 
-2,303 
-3,089 
-10,810 
-30, 933 

+31 
-275 
-3,037 
+6, 767 
+3, 155 
+3, 557 
+731 
+4, 005 
-14,681 

+115,414 

+25, 829 

+5, 047 

+6, 321 

-5,008 

-871 

-25,845 

-15,746 

-5,884 
-4, 295 
-2,871 
-15,761 
-2,681 
-5, 751 
-1,305 
-780 

-19.981 
-13,024 
-94, 205 

+5, 475 
+306 



I Does not include foreign-born and born at sea, abroad. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



1065 



Summary of importations of indigents and mental cases to Indiana classified by 
State from which imported,'^ May 19.18 to July 25, WJtO 



State: 

California 

Michigan 

Ohio 

Illinois 

New York 

Iowa 

Kansas 

Colorado 

Pennsylvania 

Wisconsin 

Washington 

Oregon 

Texas 

Arizona 

Missouri 

Minnesota 

District of Columbia. 
Kentucky 



Number 
imported 

582 
237 
180 
146 
91 
55 
38 
36 
35 
32 
31 
20 
20 
18 
16 
15 
14 
13 



State: 

Alabama 

Tennessee 

Maryland 

South Dakota- 
Massachusetts. 

Florida 

New Jersey 

Connecticut 

Louisiana 

Georgia 

Nebraska 

Virgijnia 

Utah 

Idaho 

New Mexico. _. 
Oklahoma 



Number 
imported 

10 
10 
9 
9 
7 
7 
5 
4 
4 
3 
3 
3 
2 
1 
1 
1 



Total 1,658 

1 Represents number of individuals for which consent was given to deporting State to return the indi" 
viduals to Indiana because they had legal settlement in this State. 

Summary of deportation of indigents from Indiana by township trustees during 
the months of November and December 19S8^ 

Number 
Deported to (State): of person.^ 
Kentucky 113 



Tennessee. 

Illinois 

Michigan.. 

Georgia 

Florida 

Ohio 

Mexico 

Missouri- _ 
New York. 
Colorado. - 
Nebraska.. 



41 

25 

20 

9 

8 
7 
5 
5 
5 
4 
4 



Deported to (State) — Con. 
Pennsylvania _ _ _ _ 


Number 
of persons 

3 


West Virginia 

Alabama 

California 

Minnesota 

Texas 


3 
2 
2 
2 
2 


Oklahoma 

South Dakota 


1 
1 


District of Columbia _ 


1 


Wisconsin 


1 



Total 264 

' Prepared from reports of the Governor's commission on unemployment relief, which were received for 
these months only. 



Place of birth of new cases accepted for assistance under the old-age assistance, 
aid to dependent children, and blind assistance programs during period Nov 1 
1936, through Dec. 31, 1939 ' ' 





Old-age assist- 
ance 


Aid to depend- 
ent children 


Blind assist- 
ance 


Total, all pro- 
grams 


Place of birth 


Num- 
ber of 
per- 
sons 


Per- 
cent 


Num- 
ber of 
chil- 
dren 


Per- 
cent 


Num- 
ber of 
per- 
sons 


Per- 
cent 


Num- 
ber of 
per- 
sons 


Per- 
cent 


Total 


52, 935 


100.0 


48, 408 


100.0 


2,221 


100.0 


103, 564 


100.0 




Indiana 


35, 977 
2, 356 
4,226 
546 
3,563 
4,530 
1,737 


68.0 
4.5 
8.0 
1.0 
6.7 
8.5 
3.3 


42, 034 

1,372 

1,388 

473 

632 

2,445 

64 


86.8 
2.8 
2.9 
1.0 
1.3 
5.1 
.1 


1,579 
106 
208 
11 
105 
171 
41 


71.1 
4.8 
9.4 
.5 
4.7 
7.7 
1.8 


79, 590 
3,834 
5,822 
1,030 
4,300 
7,146 
1,842 


76.8 
3.7 
5.6 
1.0 
4.2 
6.9 
1.8 


Illinois . 


Kentucky.. , 


Michigan 


Ohio 


Other States in United States 

Foreign born 





1066 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



Place of birth of new cases accepted for oJd-age assistance in Indiana counties 
that border on other States during period Jan. 1 through Dec. 31, I9S9 





Total 


Indiana 


Illinois 


Ken- 
tucky 


Michi- 
gan 


Ohio 


Other 
States 

in 
United 
States 


Foreign 
born 


Total for state . . .- 


18,317 
100.0 

7, 775 
100.0 


12, 366 
67.5 

4,609 
59.3 


867 
4.7 
522 
6.7 


1,489 
8.1 
668 
8.6 


206 
1.1 
145 
1.9 


1,142 
6.3 
541 
6.9 


1,642 
9.0 

841 
10.8 


605 


Percent of total ...... 


3.3 




449 




5 8 








67 

635 

35 

217 

74 

88 

108 

351 

258 

48 

238 

88 

101 

153 

325 

73 

603 

217 

55 

24 

76 

97 

175 

101 

99 

92 

664 

257 

42 

19 

615 

275 

999 

48 

137 

321 


46 

375 

28 

147 

70 

54 

64 

231 

179 

29 

199 

69 

73 

96 

254 

54 

140 

122 

35 

18 

61 

50 

118 

77 

91 

59 

345 

192 

33 

11 

313 

129 

520 

29 

109 

189 


1 
27 
1 
4 
_. 

1 
11 

2 

lO' 
._ 

25" 
2 

79 
9 
9 

is" 

20 
2 

2" 
30 
22 

' i" 

33 

44 

147 

7 

1 

14 


-- 

2 
54 

3 
24 

1 

5 
54 
13 
14 
13 

3 
51 
10 

2 
20 

3 

1 

6 
13 

2 
29 

1 

is" 

11 
7 
3 
186 
15 
39 

24 
28 


1 
14 



1 

3 

21 

.. 

-- 

14 
13 


13 
130 
3 
2 
1 
5 

27 

39 
4 
4 
3 
1 

15 
1 

13 
5 

32 
1 
3 


5 

47 
1 
9 


1 


Allen 


34 


Benton .. . .. 




Clark 


1 








2 

7 
36 
14 

1 
12 

4 

9 

4 
10 

5 

213 

24 

2 




DeKalb 


5 


Elkhart - - 


8 


Floyd ... -- 


5 












1 








1 




13 


LaOrange .... 


1 


Lake . 


105 




45 




5 


Ohio 










2 

5 

5 

6 

1 

6 

74 

16 

1 

1 

58 

13 

208 

6 

3 

31 




Porter 


3 

1 


7 

1 

14 


15 




1 


Randolph- . _ .... 


1 








7 

58 

1 

._ 
2 


i7 

59 

6 

1 

3 

15 

15 

43 

4 


1 




83 




9 






Union . ...... . 






9 


Vermillion 


59 




40 




1 


Warrick . . 




Wayne .... 




54 


5 







INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



1067 



Place of birth of citildren in new cases accepted for aid to dependent children in 
Indiana counties that border on other States during period Jan. 1 through Dec. 
31, t9S9 





Total 


Indiana 


Illinois 


Ken- 
tucky 


Mich- 
igan 


Ohio 


Other 
States 

in 
United 
States 


Foreign 
born 


Total for stale -..-_. 


9,982 
100.0 
4,894 
100.0 


8,569 
85.8 

4,008 
81.9 


326 
3.3 
229 
4.7 


326 
3.3 
184 
3.7 


110 
1.1 
80 
1.6 


131 
1.3 

58 
1.2 


511 
5.1 
326 
6.7 


9 


Percent of total . . 


.1 


Total for border counties 


9 


Percent of totaL . - 


.2 








26 

316 
24 
93 
40 
55 
36 

125 
44 
40 

196 
42 
24 
98 

208 

31 

1,071 

199 
36 
5 
46 
82 
52 
59 
23 
29 

446 

99 

19 

9 

502 
93 

435 
26 

100 

165 


24 

275 
17 
75 
39 
41 
33 

116 
35 
29 

164 
29 
24 
78 

191 
27 

734 

166 
34 
4 
44 
69 
46 
50 
23 
23 

385 

91 

14 

8 

401 
74 

390 
21 
92 

142 








2 

2 






Allen 


6 
2 


3 
6 
16 
1 
9 


11 
1 


19 




Benton . - 




Clark . 


' 


2 




Crawford 








Dearborn 


1" 

5 


3 






DeKalb... _ 


2 
2 
2 




Elkhart 


1 
15' 


4 
4 
12 




Floyd 




Franklin . . ... 


1 


7 
3 




Gibson .-. _ . 


9 




Harrison ... 












Jefferson . . 


-- 


17 
4 


1 
1 
4 
9 
6 


.. 


2 
4 




Knox 

LaOrange 




Lake -.. 


107 
12 
2 


10 
1 


12 


192 
14 


7 


LaPorte . ... . 




Newton 




Ohio .. .. 






1 








-- 

4 


2 

-- 

1 








Porter .. _ ... ... 


4 


i 


3 




Posey 




Randolph . ^ 


2 


5 


1 








Steuben 


5 


1 
3 

4- 


17' 
2 


5 
1 

1 






St. Joseph -. 


31 


1 






Switzerland. ... . ... . . 


1 




Union 




1 
3 




Vanderburgh .. .. 


15 
9 

25 
5 

1 


67 


2 
5 
4 


14 
4 

12 




\erminion .. 


1 






Warren . 




Warrick 


1 
6 


3 


.. 


3 

9 




Wayne . 









1068 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



Place of birth of new cases accepted for blind assistance in Indiana counties that 
border on other States during period Jan. 1 through Dec. 31, 1939 





Total 


In- 
diana 


Illinois 


Ken- 
tucky 


Michi- 
gan 


Ohio 


Other 

States 

in 

United 
States 


Foreign 
born 


Total for State .. 


311 
100.0 

133 
100.0 


203 

65.3 

74 

55.6 


13 

4.2 

7 

5.3 


40 
12.9 

23 
17.3 


1 
.3 

1 
.7 


13 

4.2 

6 

4.5 


30 
9.6 

13 
9.8 


11 




3.5 




9 


Percent of total 


6.8 








1 

5 


1 
1 














Allen - - - 








3 




1 












Clark 


6 
5 
3 
1 
4 
6 
2 
3 
1 
2 
3 
9 
1 
11 
4 


2 
5 
2 
1 
2 
3 
1 
3 
1 
2 
1 
6 




4 
























1 




















EJkhart 


1 








1 
1 




Floyd 


2 
1 


























































2 
1 
















2 

1 
3 














1 
3 


1 






1 


5 






1 
















Ohio 




















4 


3 




1 






















7 


4 


2 


1 






















5 
1 
5 
2 


5 
1 
3 
1 




































1 


1 












1 




































15 


8 




4 






3 














16 
1 
2 

8 


7 
1 
2 
4 


3 


3 






1 


2 




























3 




1 













INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



1069 



J'Idce of hirth of iiew cases accepted for assistance in Indiana counties that 
border on other States under the old-age assistance, aid to dependent children, 
and blind assistance programs during period Jan. 1 through Dec. SI, 1939 





Total 


Indiana 


niinois 


Ken- 
tucky 


Mich- 
igan 


Ohio 


Other 
States 

in 
United 
States 


Foreign 
born 


Total for State 


28,610 
100.0 

12, 802 
100.0 


21, 138 

73.9 

8,691 

67.9 


1,206 
4.2 
758 
5.9 


1,855 
6.5 
875 
6.8 


317 
1.1 
226 

1.8 


1,286 
4.5 
605 
4.7 


2,183 
7.6 

1,180 
9.2 


626 


Percent of total 


2.2 


Total for border counties 


467 


Percent of total 


3.7 






Adams 

Allen 


94 
956 

59 
316 
119 
146 
145 
480 
308 

90 
437 
131 
127 
254 
542 
105 
1,685 
420 

91 

29 
126 
179 
234 
160 
127 
122 
1,115 
358 

61 

28 

1,132 

368 

1,450 

75 
239 
494 


71 
651 

45 
224 
114 

97 

98 
349 
217 

59 
366 

99 

99 
175 
451 

81 
875 
291 

69 

22 
108 
119 
168 
127 
119 

83 
733 
284 

47 

19 
722 
203 
917 

51 
203 
335 


1 
33 
1 
4 
.. 

1 
13 
2 

25' 
_. 

32' 

2 

187 

21 

11 

26' 

26 

2 

2' 
38 
27 

.. 

48 
53 
175 
12 
2 
14 


... 

8 

74 

4 

34 

1 

5 

63 

18 

18 

25 

3 

70 

15 

2 

30 

4 

1 

6 

16 

2 

32 

2 

7 

1 

18 

11 

11 

3 

257 

15 

45 

1 

25 

37 


1 

25 

1 

.. 

4 

26 
.. 

1 
1 
-. 

1 

8 
23 
20 


15 
135 
3 
2 
1 
8 

27 

40 
4 

11 
6 
1 

15 
1 

14 
5 

45 
1 
3 
1 


5 
66 

1 

11 


1 
35 


Benton 

Clark 


. 






Dearborn .. 


2 

9 
39 
17 

1 
21 

4 

9 

6 
16 

6 
408 
38 

2 




DeKalb. 


5 


Elkhart 


8 


Flovd - . - . 


S 


Franklin . 




Gibson- 




Harrison. _ 


1 


Jay..- -.. 




JefTerson _. . 


1 


Knox 


13 


Lagrange... 


1 


Lake _.. .. ... ... .. 


117 


La Porte . 


45 


Newton .. 


5 


Ohio 




Perry .. . 


2 

8 

5 

7 

1 

6 

106 

16 

2 

1 

75 

17 

221 

6 

6 

. 40 




Porter 


7 
1 
2 


8 

1 

19 


15 


Posey 


1 


Randolph 

Spencer ... 


1 


Steuben. . 


7 
75 
3 

._ 

5 
6 

" 3' 


22 
61 

1 

4 

18 
15 
44 

4 

63" 


1 


St. Joseph 


84 


Sullivan 


10 


Switzerland- . . ._ 




Union.- . . _ 




Vanderburgh 


9 


Vermillion _. .. 


fiO 


Vigo 


42 


Warren _ .... 


1 


Warrick 

Wavne . 


5 







TESTIMONY OF CHARLES B. MARSHALL— Resumed 

Mr. Marshall. Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce for the 
record a letter from Mr. Leo X. Smith, legal adviser of the Indiana 
Township Trustees Association, together with an accompanying- 
study dated August 12, 1940. The department of public welfare 
takes no responsibility for the statement, but we are interested in 
having the view of the 1,016 township trustees presented to the 
committee. 

Mr. Parsons. We will be very glad to receive it as part of the 
i-ecord. 



2070 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

iNDIANAPOr.TS, IND.. Allf/KSt It. ]!>-'i<). 

Mr. John H. Tolan, M. C, 

Chairman, CoDimiftcc on Inicrsiate 

Migration of Destitute Citizens. Wasliiiif/ton. D. C. 
Dear Sir: At the request of Tburman A. Gottschalk. of the departineiit of 
public welfare of Indiana, I am sending you lierewith a statement on the matter 
of migration of indigents. 

This statement was prepared by Charles M. Dawson, secretary of the Indiana 
Township Trustees Association, and myself, as its legal adviser. In Indiana, 
township trustees have jurisdiction over ti-ansients and poor relief. 

We appreciate very much the opportunity to make this statement inasmuch as 
the trustees as a group are directly affected by anything that may be done. 
Very truly yours, 

Leo X. Smith. 

Statement for Select Committee of House of Representatives of United States 
Congress on Interstate Migration of Destitute Citizens 

Prepared by Charles M. Dawson, secretary of Indiana Township Trustees Asso- 
ciation, 909 Riviera Drive, Indianapolis, and Leo X. Smith, 148 East Market Street, 
Indianapolis, legal adviser. Indiana Township Trustees Association, member of 
Indiana Senate, 1933 to 1937, and sponsor of present poor-relief laws. This state- 
ment is made in behalf of the 1,016 township trustees of Indiana who administer 
poor relief and have jurisdiction over transients. No other group or board in 
Indiana has administration power over relief matters. Lack of time prevents a 
more thorough consideration of the subject to have a statement ready for the 
meeting August 19. 

Poor relief is handled in Indiana under the home-rule system whereby each 
township is responsible for indigents from the time they are found therein whether 
they have legal settlement or not. That must be remembered in any consideration 
of migrants in Indiana. If indigents, they are entitled to food, shelter, and trans- 
portation in the dii-ection of their settlement. Such relief is financed solely by 
township taxes without State or other aid. 

Lawn apijlicahlc. — The acts of 1935, page 432. revised prior relief laws all within 
the one act, and the acts of 1937, page lOof), made changes insofar as investigators 
were concerned. The acts of 1939, page 18s, changed former residence require- 
ments from 1 to 3 years within the State and of which the old 1-year requirement 
within a township to acquire settlement for relief purposes was retained. Another 
law passed at the same session provided punishment for those who after lawfully 
obtaining relief, acquired assets but fail to rc-port their change of status and con- 
tinue to accept relief. 

Our laws do not make it difficult for the individual to exercise his right to move 
from place to place in his quest for a higher economic and social status, as stated 
in one social work. Indiana laws are aimed at the chronic and shiftless who do 
not believe in bettering their economic status by the sweat of their own brow but 
who seek to better themselves at the expense of taxpayers of our townships. 

Different groups have varied ideas about care of transients but township 
trustees believe that in the past they have been coddled, that they had been edu- 
cated to shift about at the expense of taxpayers, and past policies have not solved 
the problem. 

Migration analysed amd new settlement law sponsored. — Late in 1938, town- 
ship trustees believed indigents were moving about to seek the best relief 
obtainable. Figures were gathered and the trustees association then spon- 
sored the relief settlement law which passed in 1939, requiring 3 years residence 
within the State instead of 1. One year of that 3 must be within a township. 
The same trend is noticeable in a number of other States. At that time, data 
were gathered in 25 townships having the largest relief loads and 1,471 random 
cases were analyzed. The results showed: The problem appeared to be more 
chronic in industrial than in rural centers. 

Those relief cases came from — 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



1071 



Kentucky 230 

Illinois 

Tennessee-. 

Ohio 

Missouri 

Alabama — 
Mississippi- 
Arkansas— 
Georgia. 



94 
72 
70 
24 
19 
19 
17 
17 



Texas 13 

Europe (lived here over 5 

years) 62 

Scattered States 124 

Lived in Indiana (all their 

lives) 710 



Total 1, 471 



To see which cases would be affected by a change in the settlement require- 
ments from 1 to 3 years, the 1,471 cases further analyzed showed : 

Lived in Indiana 

Less than 1 year 108 

1 to 2 years- 125 

li to 3 years 106 

Total 349 

This group was affected by the change from 1 to 3 years for settlement for 
relief purposes. 

3 to 4 years 58 

Over 4 years 364 

Lived in Indiana all of their lives 710 

Cases 1,471 

Another analysis was made to determine if the reliefers came from States 
granted less relief than Indiana. Of the 1,471 counted, 699 came from other 
States, 710 lived in Indiania, and 62 came from Europe: 



Came from— 


Cases 


Percent 


States with less relief than Indiana 

States with more relief than Indiana 


442 

257 


63 
37 


Total . . 


699 


100 







Still another analysis was made of the 1,471 cases to determine if the families 
came to Indiana to obtain relief, then acquire residence to obtain better welfare 
grants than they could obtain at home : 




337 
30 
26 

317 



Old-age assistance only 

Old-age and deiiendent-child aid 

Old-age and blind aid only 

Came from States having the same types of welfare aid as Indiana although all of them did not 

grant as much as Indiana. Some trustees believed that the migrants wanted supplemental 

poor relief. 



Strjinge to say, there was opposition to the 1939 law changing the settlement 
requirement from 1 to 3 years by organized social workers but nevertheless 
the bill passed. 

Surrey on population trends in Minnesota. — The Minnesota Institute of Gov- 
ernmental Research, St. Paul. Minn., published a survey showing that there 
was a net movement from Minnesota into Indiana between 1930 and 1936 of 
130,498 families. Indiana received more migrants from Minnesota than any other 
of 7 States considered. The object of the survey was population trends in 
Minnesota. 



1072 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Vn accept able policies. — In a few States, certain policies have been adopted 
relative to migrants w^hich are unacceptable to township trustees in Indiana. 
A ruling in Michigan was typical of the belief that plans to remove indigents 
to the place of their previous settlement must be conditioned on the following 
factors : 

"1. The move must be to the social and economic benefit of the client. 

"2. It must be made with the permission of the officials of the place to which 
he is to be returned. 

"3. Plans for his care upon his arrival must be made." 

As an illustration, when comparative grants for welfare and relief between 
Kentucky (from which most of the Indiana cases come) and Indiana are 
scrutizined. it can easily be seen that it would not be to the social and eco- 
nomic benefit of the client to be returned, because there is no Federal program 
for aid to dependent children or aid to the blind in Kentucky which there was 
and is in Indiana ; relief is also si)asmodic in Kentucky while in Indiana it is 
universal. Permission of Kentucky officials to return families is seldom granted 
or letters answered because the officials there want those families benefit by 
the better relief and welfare provided in Indiana. In addition, plans for the 
care of the indigent upon his return to Kentucky would not be made. We are 
not informed that always Kentucky follows the principles above described but 
it demonstrates the tendency toward migrants among some States. 

Township trustees in Indiana have always followed the policy of noninter- 
ference with welfare matters. Oftentimes there is a conflict but leaders of 
the trustees group have constantly urged that welfare grants he encouraged 
even though additional poor relief is required at the expense of taxpayers. That 
policy has meant that some families have taken advantage of our relief and 
welfare system. The Federal requirement that States must not disqualify a 
child who has resided in the State 1 year immediately before application for aid 
to dependent children, or who was born in the State within the preceding year 
if its mother lived within the State 1 year immediately prior to the child's 
birth, has caused some friction with local relief authorities. 

Some widows or mothers having children and who desire a grant for aid 
to dependent children, will move into Indiana and gladly skimp along until 
the 1 year's required residence has been established. She then obtains the 
grant for her dependent children and forthwith demands poor relief for herself. 
Under the Indiana relief laws she is subject to deportation to the place of her 
prior settlement under the 3-year Indiana law, but her children cannot be 
removed unless and until they demand supplemental aid. Such cases are annoy- 
ing. Many trustees believe that some provision should be made by Federal 
enactment permitting the deportation of the entire group. Several families from 
Southern States were discovered who had explained the procedure to each other 
and defied deportation through court proceedings so that they could stay until 
they had acquired the 1 year's residence. In one case, a woman gave birth to 
an illegitimate child here and when abovxt to be deported, married a man to 
acquire his settlement. He admitted he could not support her and that there 
would eventually be a divorce so that she could obtain aid to dependent 
children. 

In one Indiana township a justice of the peace court gave a deportation 
judgment against a family from Kentucky but to date the order has not been 
carried about because of threats made by the family and their friends. 

Indianapolis conference on migration. — In 1939 Indianapolis was host to a 
group which discussed migration. The Indianapolis News commented editorially 
and said : 

"The justice of Indiana's decision to require an indigent to live in the State 
3 years before he can become eligible for relief was not questioned at the timie 
the 1939 assembly stiffened the relief law. A recent statement that more migrants 
had come into Indiana than into any other Middle Western State strengthened 
the belief that this State's easier approach to relief benefits was resulting in 
abuses that should be corrected. 

"Welfare workers from 10 States, who met in Indianapolis last week, took the 
general view that relief ought to be made easier. Some of them advocated aboh 
ishing residence requirements and the meeting favored leaving to each State's 
attorney general the decision as to when public aid should be granted or denied. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1()73 

An agreement between Indiana and Ohio has been proposed, permitting a relief 
client of either State to visit the other State for 9 months in each year without 
losing such grants as have been made. 

"Relief must be given unto those in dire need and nobodj' would permit a tran- 
sient to go hungry or without shelter. However, there seems to be a growing 
tendency on the part of professional workers to consider doles as a permanent 
program and to make it easier to share in the mounting social-welfare costs. 
Private agencies urge more attention to self-support possibilities. Public agen- 
cies have become so accustomed to spending huge sums that they may forget the 
plight of the taxpayers who provide the money." 

Recent inquiry as to causes and: conditions. — On Augiist 1, an inquiry was sent 
to 125 township trustees to obtain material for this paper. Each large county 
was contacted, particularly where there was a known transient problem. Inquiry 
was also made in smaller communities. 

No effort was made to obtain data on migration of indigents within the State 
but one trustee directed attention to 1939 figures for his township when our new 
settlement law was enacted — 18.6 percent came from other Indiana townships, 
0.064 percent came from other States .within 5 years. 

The problem is appreciated by our trustees and generally they give care and 
attention as each case deserves. One explained, "We never know if they are truly 
indigent" or cheating. "Our problem is whether to give them aid such as gas, 
food, and lodging, or detain them long enough to make an investigation." 

All trustees did not answer our inquiry but a synopsis of their comment is 
given, interpolated with remarks of the writer. 

Where arc thet/ from? — One trustee said that 90 percent of his relief was to 
families who come from Kentucky. * * * Another said that many were 
lured into his community by posters placed in Kentucky. * * * Most of the 
complaints were about families coming from Kentucky, then West Virginia. One 
trustee said that many families come from Kentucky and are employed by the 
W. P. A. before local indigents receive help. This encourages an influx of 
reliefers, he said. * * * They come from the southern States, mostly." The 
makers of this statement believe that, generally speaking, they come from those 
States having less relief or welfare grants than Indiana, as indicated by our 
count in 1939. 

Kind and class of transients. — Practically all of the answers to the inquiry 
characterized the transients as "shiftless" or wanderers, ne'er-do-wells, or the 
like. Very few of them were regarded as being of the kind where aid would be 
helpful in reestablishing them. They were said to be chronics just moving about. 
As said, just a few were regarded as being in need of genuine help which would 
do either the transient or taxpayers any good. 

Here are some of the comments : • 

Wandering type. Because we are on the national road, we get many who 
are going east or west, although we are in a small town and one of the 
State police lives near. He brings them in when they need medical or hospital 
attention. "Tliey think the world owes them a living." * * * One of our 
largest packing plants does advertise in our State papers for cheap labor and 
encourages transients to compete with local labor for caring for tomato and beet 
crops. They are from Kentucky, Tennessee, Michigan, and quite a number are 
Mexicans. They have not been so numerous since the 3-year settlement law 
was pas.sed. * * * One factory hires about half its men from Kentucky 
and Tennessee. Some leave their families for a year, then the "welfare" keeps 
them. * * * They are a slovenly class drawn here by seasonal industry 
from Kentucky. * * * Fifty percent of the transients are chronic indigents 
claiming to be fruit pickers and moving south to north into Michigan or 
returning. * * * Our greatest problem is the importation of Mexican 
sugar-beet laborers by a local sugar company. A large number are from 
Texas of which 90 percent are aliens. About one-half stay. In recent years 
a higher type has been employed because the beet company sends its doctor 
from here down there to give them a physical examination. * * * Our 
township is on a United States highway and they are bound for New York, 
Chicago, Detroit, or some other large place where they "are sure they can 
get work." The local Red Cross furnishes 5 gallons of gas and 1 quart of oil. 
The Red Cross director says that only about 20 percent of them are worthy. 
* * * "One out of 25 might rehabilitate themselves but generally if you 
help them once they quit trying to help themselves." 



1Q74 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

The importation of clieap labor to compete with local labor was one cause 
assigned. Some factories advertised in otlier States or used other means to 
attract labor altliongh many of the trustees asserted that their local factories 
did not follow that practice but paid living wages. One trustee said that a 
certain junior chamber of commerce in anotlier State paid for the care of a 
family until they establislied tliemselves and acquired residence in his locality. 

Singularly, none of the trustees reported tliat any of tlie migrants said they 
were going where tliey actually had employment. They are the ones who 
have been to some large city seeking worlv or now are headed for home. 

But, "we do have a few transients from Ohio and Michigan who })ecome 
stranded." * * * "Very few are the type who could rehabilitate themselves 
in a community." * * * "Hunting work and vacation trips seem to be 
their reasons for leaving home." 

The writer observed not less than 1 month ago, in the clierry belt of 
Michigan, the large number of migrants wlio were seeking employment. In- 
quiry disclosed that many of them were attracted from other States by small 
ads. Residents of the community affected resented tlie influx and many said 
that there was enough local labor to care for the crop. After the season is 
over, the residents say that the cherry ijickers are driven away by the police. 
Until that is done, some of the women are fearful of stayiiig alone because 
of the class and type of migrants attracted. 

A northwestern Indiana trustee says that about 80 percent of its cases 
are Negoes, principally from Tennessee, Arkansas, Mississippi, and Alabama. 
"They are unskilled workers, farm hands, cotton pickers, sharecroppers, and 
the like .seeking better living conditions but lack ambition and find direct 
relief very attractive." The steel mills attract transients although they are 
not encouraged by the mills. Newspapers carry stories of booms and rela- 
tives in Gary write letters encouraging others to come there. * * * One 
trustee complains that authorization is obtained in many relief cases to return 
families to the place of their prior settlement when they are suddenly 
given W. P. A. employment or are accepted by the welfare department, then 
they will not return. The W. P. A. lays them off in a few months, then they 
demand relief. That trustee said that the old Federal transient bureau en- 
couraged the migration of families by its liberal policies. 

In central Indiana, when the trustee took office, he iuunediately ceased his 
sponsorship of the township transient bureau and s:iid that all single men 
would be cared for at the county poor farm. V(>ry few of them accepted the 
proposal and went elsewhere. The trustee believes that Federal or State care 
of transients would concentrate transient relief in the larger localities and 
increase instead of relieving the problem. It is his belief that the majority 
of transients are people who are goi^ig from one transient center to another 
and making no effort to rehabilitate themselves. 

Sugyested solutions. — There was no uniform suggestion about what should be 
done. Many insisted that it was a local responsibility while some said that the 
Federal Government should handle the problem. Others objected to Federal 
control over any of the relief. One insisted that if Indiana had a hitchhiker law 
similar to that of Pennsylvania that it would sol\e at once inany of the cases. 
Too much liberality with transients was alleged to be one cause. A uniform 
relief law with compulsory methods of enforcing c<nnpliance was one suggestion. 
Contrary to common belief, the writer of this statement believes that the tran- 
sient in genuine need receives help and assistance. After a local woman was 
nuirdered by a transient in a certain township, help to them through the police. 
Salvation Army, and other agencies was stopped except in extreme cases. They 
were overwhelmed with "customers" before but are Jiot now. 

Wayne Township of Allen County gave statistics. Fingerprinting of transients 
was regarded as having a wholesome effect. For July 1940 the figures showed : 

Transients fingerprinted 433 

Transients not previously arrested or printed 133 

Transients previously arrested or printed and with criminal records 300 

Percentage of transients in records 69.3 

Percentage of transients without records 30. 7 

White transients fingerprinted 371 

Negro transients fingerprinted 62 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1075 

According- to age groups, the largest numbers were aged 26. Their ages in 
groups were in this order: 26, 20, 19, 22, 24, 27, 17. Very few were over 29. 
Since January 1, 1940, the largest sum was spent in May for transients, then 
April. 

It might be that a universiil requirement to fingerprint transients wt)uld be 
helpful. Since that township has changed from the former set-up, applications 
for temporary care have been but two-thirds. Direct contact is made with the 
Federal Bureau of Fingerprinting liy the townsliip. Only IH percent are regarded 
a.s the better tyiie of citizen trying to improve themselves. 

"A compulsory work relief law emliracing a variety of work is a good solution. 
This is the method I use," said another. * * "Why should the people of 

this State be slowly bled to death through relief taxes for unfortunates of 
another State which clearly dctes not want to assume the ri'sponsibility of their 
(»wn relief prol)lems." * * * "j believe that each locality can handle this 
problem with less expense and more satisfaction than a Federal program, with 
a set of iron-clad rules, administered by persons who owe no responsibility to the 
conuinmity in which they are working." 

ConvluxUm. — The Social Security Board is said to have stated that mobility 
is creating serious risks of loss of rights which have accrued to persons eligible 
for public as.sistance. unemployment insurance, and similar rights and recom- 
mend interstate agreements also standardization of settlement laws pending a 
more satisfactory solution. 

We do not believe that either proposal woidd help. 

Those who lose valuable rights by movin;;- about have no one to blame but them- 
selves. Similar hazards in private employment present themselves to any person 
.seeking a change of residence, whatever the motive may be. 

A rolling stone gathers no moss, neither does a wanderer have universal opjyor- 
tiinity for employment. If jobs are .scarce at home, they are ecpmlly scarce else- 
where, or there would be no transient problem. If the migrant is a good workman 
and out of employment and knows where he may obtain employment, he will not 
be a public charge, neither will he be bothered. Tiiose situations automatically 
adjust tliemselves without any burden on taxpayers. 

The average transient has no trade and dislikes staying in one place any length 
of time if it requires any effort to obtain sustenance. To relief authorities, he is 
always "bound for home" or "going to a job" in order to get transportation some- 
where, probably anywhere. 

The public is growing more tax-conscio\is every year and di.slikes the chronic 
relief getter who is a shiftless person and flits here and there. 

Neither is it agreed that the problem is a Federal one. The experience of town- 
ship trustees with transients when Federal funds were i)artially used for local 
poor relief between 1933 and 1935 in Indiana, disclosed that most of them became 
relief conscious and that they enjoyed themselves traveling mostly nowhere. 

There are other indirect causes which affect migration of indigents, it seems. 
Among them are an ill-considered policy in giving employment on W. P. A. Local 
indigents are not favored over migrants, thus giving indirect encouragement to 
migration. Trustees believe that W. P. A. employees should be taken from the 
relief rolls. Migrants Haunt the ruling of the W. P. A. that relief laws do not apply 
to their class, notwithstanding supreme court rulings in several States. Trustees 
are now '^^•onsidering resolutions for their comiiuv convention demanding closer 
conformance with local laws and preference for emplovment bv indigents on 
W. P. A. 

One clause in relief laws of some States causes considerable criticism. It pro- 
vides that absence of 1 year causes loss of .settlement. Those States deny return 
of their migrants yet insist that States not having the clause accept their own. It 
is an ab.surd clause, and Indiana was driven to adopt it in retaliation, particularly 
against California. Preferably, no person should lose his st'Itlemeiit until a new 
one is gained, and in all events the period during whicli aid and assistance, includ- 
ing W. P. A. employment is had, should be deductible. 

If it is finally agreed that each State is responsible for its own indigents, then 
there might be .some Federal legislation permitting deportation into other States 
of those not having settlement and requiring acceptance of those cases, together 
with penalties for violation. States which will not attempt to solve their relief 
problems should be compelled to do so. It is doubtful if any one State can legally 
deport an indigent and deliver him into anoth(>r State. 



jQ^g INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Conflicts between welfare laws and local relief laws should be remedied. 
Indiana should not be compelled to permit an indigent mother to stay here in 
violation of our relief settlement laws while she is obtaining aid to dependent 
children and at times asking supplemental aid for the children and aid for 
herself from relief. The spirit and intent of our welfare laws is splendid and 
above reproach, but taxpayers generally are becoming soured against them because 
of abuses and exploitation, even though such instances are few. Now that the 
novelty of our social-security laws has worn off, they are being judged by the few 
abuses rather than the general good they do. 

Indiana trustees will probably consider requiring all who do not have settle- 
ment to be fingerprinted and that their records be checked. 

Should the Federal Government assume responsibility of the indigent problem, 
many changes should be made tightening its applicability rather than following 
the old practice used several years ago. If either Federal or State Governments 
assume the responsibility, such persons should not be permitted to acquire 
settlement while receiving help. 

The attraction of cheap seasonal labor to compete with local labor should be 
discouraged. 

To say that there is any lasting solution to the problem would be foolhardy. 
The shiftless will always be with us. A near approach to the problem might be 
found when each State cares for its own. The incentive to go elsewhere to obtain 
relief would be removed. The problem is to a degree dangerous. As stated by a 
writer in America : 

"If we give the matter intelligent thought. I believe that we can find a solution 
for the migrant question which will not, as the Germans say, pour out the baby 
with the bath. A satisfactory economic solution will find a place in our Nation 
for a small producer who stays at home. A suitable social and religious solution 
will bring back the problem to the starting point of all these matters, which is 
the individual's relation to his own home, family, and local community. This is a 
middle-class solution, you will say. Precisely; the migrants will receive real 
justice when the American middle class once knows its own mind." 

Hoosier taxpayers are willing to take back their families who have gone else- 
where and failed. They are willing to care for those who have lived here the 
required 3 years. But they are not in favor of supporting paupers who come 
here from other States and want to stay. If anything is spent on them, it is only 
the minimum necessary to put them on their way in the direction of their proper 
legal settlement. We have ample laws to provide for that ; and if it is denied, 
recourse may be had by appeal where it will be ordered. 

We are truly our brother's keeper, but not the keeper of those of distant kin, 
especially those from other States. • 

Township trustees are willing to help tho.se in actual need because of conditions 
not under their control, but they do not agree with any proixtsal that a pauper 
may come to their community and stay without any effort to help himself oi 
without any semblance of opportunity for employment. 

Please be assured that the Indiana Township Trustees Association welcomes 
a feasible solution of the problem. The association stands ready and willing to 
be of assistance in any way possible. 

Leo X. Smith. 
Chas. M. Dawson. 



TESTIMONY OF CHAKLES B. MARSHALL— Resumed 

Mr. Parsons. You may proceed with your statement, Mr. Marshall. 
Mr. Marshall (reading) : 

MAJOR PROBLEMS OF MIGRATION 

The interstate movement of populations shifts from place to place 
on the basis of real or believed opportunities for economic security. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1077 

The cause of the migration may be an opportunity for employment, 
better public medical-care facilities, or more adequate public assistance. 

States which have adequate programs of assistance and which border 
States in which there is no such program may find that persons are 
tending to cross the borders taking up residence with the view of quali- 
fying for such assistance. 

" Communities, which, because of some development, import a consid- 
erable number of persons in a boom industry, find that these persons 
moving into the community create a problem when the boom is over or 
tiiere is a change in the employment situation. 

Tlieoretically, if opportunities for employment, economic security, 
I)ublic assistance, and private charities were equal in all communities, 
there would be relatively little interstate migration. Because of the 
varying situations in diiferent States, each State has sought to pro- 
tect itself from unwelcome influx by various devices. Border controls, 
stringent legal settlement laws, discrimination against nonresidents as 
to public relief, community resistance to nonnatives, and general com- 
nnmity resistance to persons born elsewhere are some of the devices by 
which control is attempted. 

States have attempted to control interstate migration of dependents 
by setting up reciprocal agreements and establishing legal settlement 
laws. The powers in this field of various States vary so greatly that 
little control is actually exercised. 

The legal settlement laws for public relief vary from liberality to 
extreme stringency. Some States do not have a direct-relief program ; 
other States do not have an aid-to-dependent-children plan under the 
Federal Social Security Act; some States rule a person loses legal 
settlement as soon as he moves out of the community ; others permit 1 
year's leave of absence ; and others permit a person to retain legal settle- 
ment until he gains a new legal settlement elsewhere as far as public 
relief is concerned. 

Major problems may be listed as follows: 

(1) The variation of legal settlement law^s. 

(2) The lack of definite controls as to the deportation and impor- 
tation of dependent persons. 

(3) The variation in adequacy of relief and assistance programs as 
])etween States and lack of certain necessary relief and assistance pro- 
grams in some States which cause an influx of dependents into adjoin- 
ing States. 

(4) Importation of labor in boom times without a definite plan as to 
a {)ermanent program of employment which wnll eliminate large groups 
of dependents in times of economic stress. 

SUGGESTED SOLUTIONS 

Although I am not authorized to make any recommendations, some 
of the solutions which may be proposed in this connection are as 
follows : 

(1) Development of a uniform legal settlement law which might be 
urged upon all States. 



]^Q78 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

(2) Settino- up the macliinery tor reciprocal aoTeements between 
States as to importation and deportation of dependents and requirin<x 
that such machinery be used by all units of oovernment. 

(3) Developmenl of a uniform reciprocal-agreement act for enact- 
ment by States in connection with importation and deportation of 
dependents which will put both States upon the same basis as to legal 
settlement and the transfer of dependents. 

(4) Development of a Federal program for the care of nonresidents 
Avhile they are establishing themselves in a new community so that they 
may adjust tliemseh'es to economic security and not be fired back to the 
jjlace in which there has been failure. 

(5) Development of uniform legal settlement laws by a Federal 
program of aid for nonresident dependents in which the standards 
required of States for Federal grants will impel uiuform legislation. 

These are long-range suggestions which probably cannot be realized 
fully so long as there are State governments but the development of 
which may eliminate some of the major difficulties now being experi- 
enced. 

Mr. Parsons. Do you have a question you would like to ask. Con- 
gressman Curtis^ 

^, u()Ai;r.>'-Mi:M' cake of hojiei.kss 

Mr. Curtis. Yes. With reference to the suggestions you have made, 
as I understand it, you propose that the Federal Government should 
assume the problem of assisting those i)eoi)le who are entirely home- 
less, as far as all States are concerned '? 

Mr. Marshaix. At least, assist in that program. 

Mr. Curtis. You mean, by closely working together, by uniformity 
in settlement laws and reciprocity in the return of families? 

Mr. Marshall. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. Our difficulties in this country have gone on for long 
enough so there are many, many people who do not belong any place, 
from a legal standpoint. 

Mr. Marshall. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. That is the area in which you feel the Federal Govern- 
ment shoidd assume the greater burden? 

Mr. Marshall. If there is opportunity for adjustment in the new 
place to which the family has moved, the probabilities are it is better 
for the country as a whole for some relationship to be worked out 
whereby that family can adjust itself rather than to be obliged to 
return to its place of settlement where there has been failure because 
the family has had to ask for a medical order, or some very definite 
relief. 

UNIFORM SETTIJ':ili:NT I^WVS 

In my opinion the settlement laws are going to get more and more 
stringent than they are now, unless there is some impulse from the 
Federal Government to bring about uniformity, and the opportunities 
for assistance in all States as to all categories are going to have to be 
equal, in order to eliminate the impulse to move from one place to a 
place where a better adjustment can be made. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1079 

Mr. Curtis. As a matter of fact, we have a situation now where the 
States to protect tliemselves from nei<>lil)orin<>- States are compelled 
to do some thin<^s that are not reall}' working toward the general good 
of the country as a Avhole? 

Mr. Marshall. That is correct. Take the situation as to Illinois 
and Indiana : Both States have adopted the 3-year residence require- 
ment for local settlement. Illinois did not provide, apparently, for 
temporary relief of the nonresident person. Indiana, through the 
^vork of the Trustees Association, permitted such relief to be written 
into the law. 

In my opinion, legal settlement must be divorced from temporary 
aid or temporary relief. In other words, civilization or humanity 
demands that the person who has come into the community hungry or 
sick have some care for the time being, until he can be retiu-ned to the 
place of legal settlement. 

Mr. Curtis, Do you not think it is only fair to consider the fact 
that States that are receiving a great many destitute people from any 
given area, likewise over a period of years have received a great many 
people from that same area with considerable funds and other talents 
and possessions to make a contribution to the State to which they go? 

jVlr. Marshall. That is right. The fact that a person moves from 
one State to the other does not mean he is an economic liability for 
the community. However, the greatest movement as to importation 
and deportation is between States in which there has been some such 
movement. For instance, out of 1,400 cases to which the Department 
of Public Welfare in Indiana gave consent for retui-n of dependents, 
582 of them were from the State of California. 

Mr. Curtis. I noticed that in the table. 

Mr. Marshall. Yes. 

Mr. Curtis. I also noticed in your table that with respect to non- 
residents of Indiana who were destitute and mental cases. California 
leads the list. 

Mr. Marshall. That is because they have been more active in re- 
turning nonsettled persons, and probably because there has been a 
greater movement of persons seeking economic security to that State 
who have come back to Indiana. In 1920, the number of persons 
living in other States born in Indiana exceeded the number of persons 
born in other States and living in Indiana by approximately 280,000. 
In 1930 the figure had gone down to 230,00(3, showing that the flow 
is going back to Indiana instead of away from Indiana. 

Mr. Curtis. If our chairman was here to protect his good State, I 
would ask you if California had returned any millionaires that had 
gone from Indiana to California; but since he is not here, I will not 
ask you that question. That is all. 

Mr. Parsons. Are there any other questions, gentlemen? [Xo re- 
sponse,] Mr. Marshall, we appreciate your coming. We would like 
to have you express to the Governor our thanks for submitting this 
paper for the record. It is gratifying to know that he took enough 
time and interest in this investigation to send down what I think is 
a very valuable report upon the situation in Indiana. 

200:{70 — 40— pt. 3 18 



j^QgQ INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. Marshall. I will be very happy to. I look forward with great 
interest to the report of the committee. 

Mr. Parsons. We will try to see that you get a copy out m the 
capital of Indiana when it is published. 

Mr. Marshall. Thank you. 

(Whereupon, Mr. Charles B. Marshall was excused.) 

STATEMENT OF CATHEEINE ODGERS 

Mr. Parsons. The next witness will be Mrs. Odgers. 
Give your name and address to the reporter and speak loudly so we 
can hear you. 

Mrs. Odgers. Catherine Odgers, 1230 West Adams. 
Mr. Parsons. Chicago, 111.? 

Mr. Parsons. Congressman Sparkman will interrogate you. 

Mr. Sparkman. Mrs. Odgers, where were you born ? 

Mrs. Odgers. Colorado. 

Mr. Sparkman. Do you mind telling us when ? 

Mrs. Odgers. In 1905. 

Mr. Sparkman. 1905? 

Mrs. Odgers. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. That makes you 35 now ? 

Mrs. Odgers. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Are you married? 

Mrs. Odgers. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. How long did you live in Colorado ? 

Mrs. Odgers. Until I was about two and a half. 

Mr. Sparkman. Then wdiere did you go ? 

Mrs. Odgers. Arizona. 

Mr. Sparkman. How long did you live in Arizona ? 

Mrs. Odgers. About 27 years, off and on. 

Mr. Sparkman. What was your father's occupation ? 

Mrs. Odgers. He was a boiler inspector. 

Mr. Sparkman. AVhat about your husband? 

Mrs. Odgers. He is a diamond driller. 

Mr. Sparkman. A diamond driller? 

Mrs. Odgers. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. When you were married, did you contnnie to live 

in Arizona ? 

Mrs. Odgers. Just for a short while. 

Mr. Sparkman. Where did you and your husband live after you 
were married? 

Mrs. Odgers. We went to California. We were there a short while. 
Then w^e went to Oregon, Washington, and Idaho, about 6 months. 
We were in all of those places, and then we went back to Arizona 
for a while. 

Mr. Sparkman. You were going to different places where he could 

find work? 

Mrs. Odgers. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. He is in Chicago here with you now? 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1081 

Mi-s. Odgers. Yes. We arrived Sunday night. 

Mr. Sparkman. Wliere did he last work? 

Mrs. Odgers. Down in the Canal Zone. 

Mr. Sparkman. The Panama Canal Zone? 

Mrs. Odgers. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Do you liaA'e any children? 

Mrs. Odgers. Three. 

Mr. Sparkman. What are their ages? 

Mrs. Odgers. Ten, 8, and 3. 

Mr. Sparkman. Had you been previously married? 

Mrs. Odgers. I had been previously married, yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Are all of these children by your present husband ? 

Mrs. Odgers. Just the last one is by this husband. 

Mr. Sparkman. Your husband has had to go wherever work op- 
portunities presented themselves ? 

Mrs. Odgers. Yes. It is usually on big construction jobs. 

Mr. Sparkman. How long did he work in the Canal Zone? 

Mrs. Odgers. He was down there a little over a year. 

Mr. Sparkman. How did he happen to lose out down there ? 

Mrs. Odgers. Well, he could not get along with his immediate su- 
perior, so it was a toss-up whether he should resign or be discharged. 
He took the lesser of the evils and resigned. 

Mr. Sparkman. Was he working on a Government job? 

Mrs. Odgers Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. I mean, was he employed by the Government? 

Mrs. Odgers. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Not by a contractor? 

Mrs. Odgers. No ; by the Government. 

Mr. Sparkman. He was on what end of the Canal ? 

Mrs. Odgers. The Pacific. 

Mr. Sparkman. Could he have switched to the other end? 

Mrs. Odgers. No. There was no work on the other side. 

Mr. Sparkman. Was lie AAorking there in connection with this new 
set of locks ? 

Mrs. Odgers. Yes. and the work had already been done on the At- 
lantic side. 

Mr. Sparkman. You mean, the kind of work he does? 

Mrs. Odgers. That is right. 

Mr. Sparkman. Now, he is a diamond-drill operator? 

Mrs. Odgers. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. That is, drilling in rock for blasting purposes and 
such as that? 

Mrs. Odcers. No. Taking up samples of the rock. 

Mr. Sparkman. Core drilling and such as that ? 

Mr. Odgers. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. His is more preliminary work, test work: is that 
it? 

Mrs. Odgers. Yes. 



iQQO INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr Sparkman. Did you go to the Canal Zone with him ^ 

Mrs. Odgees. I went "to the Canal Zone with hmi. I was down 

there 9 months. . , ., xi > 

Mr. Sparkman. Where did you live while you were tliere^ 

Mrs. Odgers. Ancon. . . 

Mr. Sparkman. That is an American city m the C anal Zone, right 

outside of Panama City? .1 ^i a 4^ ^^ 

Mrs. Odgers. It is right out of Panama, on the other side ot the 

street. ,. i i i j. 

Mr. Sparkman. When his work ran out, of course, lie had to move 

out? 

Mrs. Odgers. We had to get out ot the Zone. 

Mr. Sparkman. You had to get out of the Zone because ot the 
regulations ? 

Mrs. Odgers. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Then you came back to ^ew York^ 

Mrs. Odgers. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. How did you come back? 

Mrs. Odgers. On a boat run by the Panama Railroad. 

Mr. Sparkman. Had you saved up any funds? 

Mrs. Odgers. Pardon me ? 

Mr. Sparkman. Had you saved up any money ? 

Mrs. Odgers. No. What I came up on was his vacation mouey 
that he had coming to him. 

Mr. Sparkman. Leave money he could take when he severed hi^ 

connections ? 

Mrs. Odgers. Yes. 1 i xt a.- 1 > 

Mr. Sparkman. What did you do when you reached JSew lork^ 

Mrs. Odgers. We came on through here to Chicago. When I saw 
I wouldn't have enough money to take me on to Arizona, I sent 
wires to mv brother and my farmer husband. I thought he inight 
})e able to help get the children back west. I have not heard from 
him since. Mv brother could not help. , , i . 

Mr. Sparkman. You have not heard from your former husband? 

Mrs. Odgers. No; and my brother could not help. 

]Mr. Sparkman. Does he'support the children? 

]\Irs. Odgers. Not any. 

Mr. Sparkman. Not to any extent whatsoever? 

Mrs. Odgers. No. 

Mr. Sparkman. Does he have steady employment ( 

Mrs. Odgers. No. In fact, I have only seen him once since I liave 
been remarried. 

Mr Sparkman. Did you hear from your brother^ 

Mrs. Odgers. I had 'a letter from them. They could not help 
me. They are having troubles of their own. 

Mr. Sparkman. So this was as far as you were able to go^ 

Mi-s. Odgers. This was as far as I have gotten. 

Mr. Sparkman. Are you receiving any aid? 

Mrs. Odgers. No. We are staying down at the Salvation Army 

AVomeivs Lodge. . • , 1 • q 

Mr. Sparkman. The Salvation Army then is helping you ^ 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1()83 

Mrs. Odgers. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Your husband lias just come in, in the last 



iiv or 
Mrs. 



Odgers. He is in the hospital. 

Mr. Sparkman. He is in the hospital? 

Mrs. Odgers. Yes. He has a bad case of influenza. Through this 
Travelers Aid. he wrote to Washington to see if he could get the 
retirement fund. When he gets that, we are planning to leave. 

Mr. Sparkmax. That is, for the work he did ? 

Mrs. Odgers. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkmax. Had he ever done any Government work prior to 
that time!' 

Mrs. Odgers. Yes. He worked down in Panama before that, 10 
or 11 years ago. He worked at Boulder Dam. 

Mr. Sparkman. Has he tried to obtain employment with the 
various construction and engineering firms of this country? 

Mrs. Od<;ers. Yes. He went ^yesterday to one of the diamond drill- 
ing companies. They had moved their offices to Michigan City. He 
was supposed to see their salesman today. He said he would, as 
soon as he felt better. He said he would go and see him. 

Mr. Sparkman. Mrs. Odgers, has his woi'k been fairly steady ? 

Mrs. Odgers. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman^. Since you have been married to him? 

Mrs. Odgers, Yes. It hasn't been so long between jobs. There is 
lots of it going on. 

Mr. Sparkman. You are certainly optimistic, I hope, as to future 
emploj'ment ? 

Mrs. Odgers. We have always gotten it before. 

Mr. Sparkman. You have never had any public relief? 

Mrs. Odgers. No. 

Mr. Spark:man. This is the first time, I presume, that you have 
had to receive help of any kind ? 

Mrs. Odgers. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkmax'. From any agency ? 

Mrs. Odgers. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkmax'. Are your children in school ? Do they go to 
school ? 

Mrs. Odgers. The two oldest ones go to school. 

Mr. Sparkman. The youngest one is not old enough yet? 

Mrs. Odgers. No. 

Mr. Sparkmax. Did they attend school in the Canal Zone? 

Mrs. Odgers. Yes; a full term down there. 

Mr. SpARK^rAX. Wlierever you are, when school opens this fall, 
you plan to put them in school? 

Mrs. Odgers. So far in their schooling we have usually managed it. 
We usually have managed so as to be able to stay in one place long 
enough for them to have a whole term of school. There has only 
been one time when they had to g:o to two schools during a year. 

Mr. Sparkman. That is all I have. 

Mr. Parsons. Are there any other questions? 



2084 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mr. OsMERS. I have a question. 

Mr. Parsons. Con<?ressman Osmers. 

Mr. Osmers. What income did your husband make when he was 
working for the Canal Zone? 

Mrs. Odgers. What income? 

Mr. Osmers. Yes. 

Mrs. Odgers. He started at $235 and was raised up to $'250. 

Mr. Osmers. Did that inchide any housing? 

Mrs. Odgers. No; that is taken out. All of your living expenses 
are taken out. 

Mr. Osmers. They are taken out of the $250 ? 

Mrs. Odgers. Yes; by the time you get it, there is not much left. 

Mr. Osmers. That is all. 

Mr. P^VRSONS. Tha-nk you very much, Mrs. Odgers. 

(AYliereupon, Mrs. Catherine Odgers was excused.) 

TESTIMONY OF HOWAED DAVID GOULD, DIRECTOR OF INDUSTRIAL 
RELATIONS AND RESEARCH, CHICAGO URBAN LEAGUE; AND 
FRAYSER T. LANE, DIRECTOR OF THE SOCIAL AND CIVIC DEPART- 
MENT FOR THE CHICAGO URBAN LEAGUE, CHICAGO, ILL. 

Mr. Parsons. The next witnesses are Mr. Lane and Mr, Gould. 
Gentlemen, will you please give your names, addresses, and posi- 
tions to the reporter. 

Mr. Gould. My name is Howard David Gould, director of in- 
dustrial relations and research. Chicago Urban League. 

Mr. Lane. My name is Frayser T. Lane, director of the social and 
civic department for the Chicago L^rban League. 3032 South Wabash 
Avenue here in Chicago. 

Mr. Parsons. Congressman Curtis will interrogate you, gentle- 
men. 

Mr. Osmers. We were very hopeful of having Dr. Cayton here 
tocla}^ to enlarge upon his statement which has been filed with the 
committee on the subject of Negro migration: Its problems and 
control. Would you please state for the record the reason why it 
is impossible for him to be here ? 

Mr. Gould. I understand that Dr. Cayton's father is dying in 
Seattle, Wash. 

(Statement by Dr. Horace R. Cayton was introduced, as follows:) 

Statement by Horace R. Caytox 

I 

At the outset the question might be posited, "Why does a population group mi- 
grate?" A common-sense answer to this question is that people move from 
places where they have fared badly to places where they will, or think they will, 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1085 

fare better. People hope to gain by migrating, social improvement, economic ad- 
vantage, religious freedom, or access to cultural resources. America has expe- 
rienced much internal migration. There was the original migration which settled 
the West. Later there was the great rise of the cities which caused a di.'^tinct shift 
in the Nation's status from a predominantly rural to an urban ix^ople, a develop- 
ment so swift as to be without precedent in the history of the world. These move- 
ments of people have already been described by Professor Wirth. I simply wish to 
point out at this time that migration of Negroes is just one aspect of population 
movements in the United States arising from the harnessing of steam, electricity, 
and the internal-combustion engine which has made possible the settlement of the 
country and the development of great cities. 

Fundamentally the migration of Negroes is similar to other population move- 
ments in the United States. One important difference, however, can be pointed 
out. Negro migration has been more extensively directed to the large cities and 
especiallj' to the cities of the North ; and, with the exception of the stream of 
people to California, the migration of Negroes has not followed the westerly 
trend which is evident in the general population. It should be kept in mind that 
the study of the mtivement among Negroes is just the observation of one segment 
of the general population which is being influenced by the social and economic 
forces which have been in flux since the beginning of the century. No migration 
of Negroes has been more conspicuous, easier to follow, to study, and become 
alarmed about, because they are easily recognized and because of the difficulties 
which are often involved in their adjustment in cities. 

In order to comment intelligently on the interstate migration of Negroes (who 
might be destitute citizens), one must examine the question in the context of the 
entire history of Negro migration as well as the more general population shifts. 
The simple explanation of the present migration of Negroes in terms of coming 
North to get on the W. P. A. ignores the forces which were set in motion during 
the mass migration and imputes to the illiterate Negro sharecropper of the "deep 
South" knowledge of the involved laws of settlement and the labyrinth of State 
and municipal regulation surrounding the relief legislators which it would be 
impossible for him to have. In the following pages I will comment briefly upon 
the history of Negro migration up to the present time and some of the reasons 
for that movement. 



HISTORY OF NEGRO JIIGRATION 

By tracing the center of Negro population through the various census enumera- 
tions one can gain a vivid picture of the migrations of that segment of the popula- 
tion. In 1790 the center of the Negro population of the United States was located 
near the southern boundary of the State of Virginia. Ninety years later it had 
moved southward and was in the northwestern corner of the State of Georgia. 
Thus it had traveled 163.1 miles farther south and 413..5 miles farther west and 
the total distance it had covered in a direct line was 445 miles, representing an 
average advance of 50 miles per decade. This followed the movement of the 
general population in the Southern States. The rate of advance of the Negro 
population center was slowing down toward the close of the century, however, 
but was still southward. By 18'JO it had gone 20 miles farther in that direction, 
in 1900 nearly 10 miles, in 1910. 6 miles, and w^as then located in northeastern 
Alabama. The direction of its movement was reversed in 1920 and it moved not 
westward but eastward, not southward but northward, in fact, 94 miles farther 
east and 19.4 miles farther north to the northwestern corner of Georgia. The 
population center for 1930 is not available but it is safe to assume that it con- 
tinued to move in a northeastern direction and was probably located in the south- 
eastern section of Tennessee. Future movement of this center will probably con- 
tinue in this direction. 

There always has been some migration of Negroes into the Northern States. 
In the early 1800's there was a small but steady flow of Negro freedmen and 
slaves through the "underground railroad." This movement was somewhat 
checked by the race riots which followed the competition of these migrants 
with northern white workers, for serious difficulties, in which numbers of 
Negroes were maltreated and murdered, occurred in such localities as Phila- 
delphia, Pittsburgh, and New York. In spite of this, however, numbers of 
Negroes continued to move to these northern centers. 



1086 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



After the Civil War tliere were two divorffing currents of Negro migratiOD : 
One was northward from the more northern of the Southern States— Mary Umd, 
Virgina, Kentucky, Tennessee, and North Carolina; and the other was south- 
ward and westward on the part of Negroes in the lower Atlantic ^md Gulf 

Stclt6S 

"The northward migration from Virginia after the war was notably large, 
and was a direct reversal of the current of migration that prevailed under the 
regime of slavery, when Negroes were being taken south in large numbers. 
Set free, the "Virginia Negro turned toward the North and has been facing in 
that direction ever since. This northward current of migration led mostly to 
the States of Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and New York. The number of Negro 
natives of Virginia living in these States when the war closed must have been 
less than 10,000, for it was only 1.S.050 in 1870. But after the war it increased 
rapidly, as shown by each successive census, and in 1920 was 11.5,104. The 
southward migration" practically ceased, as is shown by the fact that the number 
of Virginia Negroes living in the States of Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, 
Louisiana, and Texas decreased from 107,934 in 1870 to 10,844 in 1920. Thus 
the Virginia-born Negro in the Cotton States of the South lias almost disap- 
peared, although no doubt his descendants there are numerous." ^ 

Negroes in the "deep south" at that time did not migrate to the North in 
large numbers; they lacked the knowledge, means, and initiative to embark 
on such a journey. ' Therefore, the drift of the Negro population followed the 
development of cotton cultivation and continued toward the southwest in the 
same direction as the earlier compulsory migration under slavery. 

An exception to this general trend of the Negro population was a movement 
of people which originated in Tennessee and Kentucky in 1876 and spread 
to the "deep south" around 1879. A series of migrations letl by Pap Singleton, 
an energetic Negro leader at that time, was responsible for between five and 
ten thousand Negroes moving to Kansas. It was Pap Singleton's boast that 
he had organized 90,000 blacks for migration though the actual numbers might 
not have exceeded 10,000. The majority of these migrants settled in the rural 
sections of Kansas though later many drifted into the cities. This incidenbally 
was perhaps the only instance where Negro migrants from the South settled m 
rural northern areas" in any numbers. This movement was more important than 
the number of persons involved would indicate for it set a pattern and gave 
many Negro families a foothold and relatives in the North. 

Tliere was also during this period a small but highly important stream of 
educated Negro mulattoes from all sections of the South who migrated to the 
North with the enforcement of the Black Codes. Many of them had been en- 
gaged in politics and a large proportion of them had gone south for the first 
time to engage in the work of reconstruction. With the Negro definitely barred 
from political participation they returned, accompanied by a number of south- 
ern mulattoes, to the North where even a menial position allowed them to live 
more in accordance with their notion of themselves. 

******* 

There were in the North in 1860. 340.000 Negroes who constituted 7.7 percent 
of the total Negro population of the country. With the migrations from the 
border States and that of the educated mulattoes, as well as such movements 
as those from the lower South led by Singleton, this number increased in 1870 
to 452,000. in 1880 to 615,000. in 1890 to 701,000, and in 1900 to 880,000. During 
these four decades the percentage of Negroes in the North had increased from 
7.7 percent of the total Negro population in 1800 to 9.3 in 1870 and then remained 
practically constant until 1900, when it reached 10 percent. In 1910, 45 yeai-s 
after the emancipation, when, theoretically at least, the masses of Negroes were 
at liberty to move, 89 percent of the Negro population of the country (nearly 
9,000,000 persons) were to be found in the South. From 1860 to 1910 the per- 
centage of Negroes in the South had decreased only 3.2 percent (i. e., from 92.2 
percent to 89 percent). Between 1900 and 1910 only about 150,000 colored 
persons migrated North, bringing the total black population in that section to 
a million persons, or 10.5 percent of the colored population. 

1 Hill, Joseph A., U. S. Monthly Labor Review, March 1924. Bureau of Labor Statistics. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



1087 



The great waves of Negro migration to the Northern States occurred between 
1916 and 1919, and between 1021 and 1924. In the former period the net increase 
of sonthern-born Negroes to tlie North was about 321,890. which represented an 
increase of about 45 percent to the Negro population of the North. Between 
1920 and 1930 the number of migrants to the North was almost a million, and 
represented an increase of 63 percent to the northern Negro population. From 
1910 to 1920 the percentage of Negroes living in the South deci-eased from 89 to 
85.2 percent, while the Negroes living in the North increased from 10.5 to^ 14 
percent. In the next decade the pei'centage of Negroes living in the South 
decreased to 78.7 percent, making a total loss of 10.3 percent for the 20-yeRr 
period. The percentage of Negroes in tlie North increased to 20 percent of the 
total Negro population, which constituted an increase of nearly 10 percent 
for the two decades. 

These migrants, in contrast to the early movements following the emancipa- 
tion, originated from the "deep South." The earlier northward migration was, 
as already noted, mostly from the northern tier of the Southern States. Even 
as recently as 1910, 48 percent, or nearly one-half, of the southern-born 
Negroes living in the North came from two States — Virginia and Kentucky. 
The migration between 1910 and 1920 reduced the proportion from these two 
States to 31.(3 percent. On the other hand, the proportion of Negroes in the 
North coming from the States farther south — from what may be termed the 
Cotton Belt States — increased from 18.2 percent of the total number of southern- 
born Negroes living in the North in 1910 to 40.5 percent in 1920. The absolute 
figure shows an increase from 75,000 in 1910, to 298,000 in 1920, so that there 
were nearly four times as many persons in 1920 as there were in 1910. By 1930 
the movement had reached even the most remote rural sections of the "deep 
South" and the percentage of southern-born Negroes in the North from these 
States continued to increase. 



Migration in this country is a phenomenon intimately associated with urbanism 
in that cities acquire their population through the migration of the rural popu- 
lation. The movement of Negroes to the cities of both the South and North is 
a reflection of the trend toward urbanism which has characterized our national 
life during the past century. Thought of as living a quiet, rural existence on 
far-off plantations in the "deep South," the Negro population has suddenly been 
discovered to have formed significant proportions of northern, eastern, and 
southern cities. 

As early as the 1880's Negro farm hands had begun to drift to the cities of the 
South, forsaking farm labor for work in mines, lumber camps, and sawmills. 
Beginning with 1900 the movement to these small towns and cities increased 
perceptibly and included not only farm laborers but also tenants and some owners. 
In 1890, 84.7 percent of the Negro population of the South w-as rural. 
This percentage decreased steadily to 82.S percent in 1900 ; 78.8 percent in 1910 ; 
74.6 percent in 1920 ; 65.9 percent in 1930. Since 1900 over a million rural Negroes 
have migrated to southern cities. 

Although still predominantly rural, the Negro population is increasing in 
urban population at a greater rate than the white population. Between 1910 
and 1920 the Negro rate of increase in urban population was 32.6, compared w'ith 
28.5 for whites ; and during the decade from 1920 to 1930, the percentage of 
increase for Negroes was 45.9, while that of the whites was 24.1. The growth 
in urban Negro population is apparent in the following table: 

Percentage of Negroes, urban and rural, 1890-1930 



Year 


Percentage 
urban 


Percentage 
rural 


1890 


19. t 
22.7 
27.4 
34.0 
43.7 


80 6 


liion 


77 3 


1910 


7'' 6 


1920. _.. 


66 


1930 


56, 3 







-j^Qgg INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

The proportion of the Negro population which was urban increased from 19.4 
percent in 1880 to 43.7 percent in 1930 in the country as a whole. The urbaniza- 
tion of the Negro population was differentiated by regions, however. In 1930 only 
31.7 percent of the Negroes in the South were urban, but in the North 88.3 percent 
of the Negroes lived in cities, and in the Western Slates 82.3 percent. In the 
North and the West larger proportions of Negroes than native whites were urban, 
for only 68.4 percent of the native whites were urban in the North and 58.5 percent 

in the West. . . , ^ ..v, 4. 

The migrations to the North were almost wholly to the cities and, further, to a 

relatively few large industrial centers. „ , ^, . nv,-, i 1 

"In the North there were 25 such Negro cities— New York, Chicago, Philadel- 
phia Detroit, St. Louis, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Newark, 
Kan.sas City (Mo.) , Columbus, Boston, Kansas City (Kans.), Gary, Dayton, Atlantic 
City, Youngstown, Buffalo, Toledo, Jersey City. East St. Louis. Camden, Omaha, 
A^ljron— arranged in order of size of Negro population of nearly 7,000,000 to East 
St Louis 111., with its 1.500 Negroes in less than 75,000 total population. In these 
25 centers there are found 1,513,384 Negroes, or 72 percent of all the urban Negroes 
in the North and 03.9 percent of the total Negro population." - 

The Negro population of the North is overwhelmingly centered in New lork, 
Chicago, Philadelphia, and Detroit, which contained over 33 percent of the total 
North Negro population in 1930. 

In 193U of the 43.7 percent of the Negro population in urban communities 8 
percent were in cities of l,0il0,000 or more, 20.2 were in cities 100,000 or oyer. 
The remainder of the urban Negro population was distributed among the various 
rity size groups in the following manner : Cities 25,000 to 100,000, 8.1 ; those 10,000 
to 25,000, 5.3: those 2,500 to 10,000, 6.1. Further, it is the larger cities which 
vhow an increasing rate of growth for cities over a million, and cities 2;>0,000 to 
7:00,000 doubled their Negro population during the past decade (1920-30) with the 
lities of the smaller size group increasing at a slower rate. 

A further comment on the high degree of urbanization of the Negro can be 
made in connection with the new classification of the census of rural farm and 
nonfarm. Although 56.3 percent of the total Negro population was in 1930 classi- 
fied as rural, 17 percent of the Negroes of the country were listed as rural non- 
farm This classificatioii included many persons living in the metropolitan areas 
i)f large cities and would include a number of Negroes living in or near suburban 
pnd satellite cities either as servants in the former case or as industrial workers 
In the latter case. In both instances these persons would be, to all intents and 
t)urposes, more urban than rural in their relation to the economic structure, their 
nutlook and way of life. 

II 

NEBBO MIGRATION AND SETTLEMEnMT IN INDUSTRIAL URBAN CENTEES 

Alueh of the migration from the South in the period we have been discussing 
was directed toward the West North Central States (Ohio, Indiana. Illinois, Michi- 
gan, and Wisconsin). The Negro population of that area increased from approxi- 
mately 250 000 persons in 190O to over a million in 1930. In 1900 only 1 State, 
Ohio had a Negro population of lOO.OOO, while in 1930 each State in the division 
with'the exception of Wisconsin, had over 100.000, and both Ohio and Illinois had 
over 300,000. IMost of these migrants, as in other parts of the country, migrated 
to the large cities of this area. Chicago's Negro population increased 113.7 per- 
cent during the decade 1920 to 1930; Detroit's, 194 percent; Cleveland's, 108.7 
percent- and Cincinnati's, 59 percent. The migration to and the settlement in 
large cities of this district did not vary from the pattern which has already been 
described for the country as a whole. 

Chicago I believe, presents an excellent area for the study of Negro migration 
and settlement in a large industrial urban center. In the first place, Chicago has 
the largest single Negro population in the world. Only Greater New York, which 
is composed of five counties, has a larger Negro population, and Manhattan Island 
alone has fewer Negroes than Chicago— having 224,670 to (Chicago's 233,903. 
(Greater New York has a total Negro population of 327,706.) In the second place, 
the Chicago metropolitan region has a number of divertant types of Negro settle- 

s Ross, Urbanization and the Negro, p. 123. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1089 

iiieuts, varying from the highly urban slum district of the Wost Side to the rural 
small-town settlement of Robbins, III., located only 25 miles from the heart ot the 
city. Within this region the tendency of the migrant Negro population to settle 
in the most urban areas is evident. Of the total Negro population of that area 
(15 counties of the States of Illinois, Michigan, and Wisconsin) 97 percent are in 
places over 10.000; 1.1 percent in places 2,500 to 10.000; 0.4 percent in places 
2,500 ; 1.8 percent in rural nonfarm areas ; and 0.1 percent on rural farms. Thus 
of the total 281,514 Negro population in the area, 273,170 are to be found in cities 
10,000 and over, leaving only 9.544 in all other city size groups and in rural areas. 
This distribution varies greatly from that of the total population of the region 
which is much less highly urbanized. Only 87 percent of the total population was 
found in places 10,000 and over in 1930 (as compared to 97 percent of the Negroes), 
and 3 percent were on rural farms (as compared to 0.1 percent of the Negroes). 

Negroes have been residents of Chicago since its founding and, as a matter of 
fact, the first settler in Chicago was Jean Baptiste Point Du Sable, a San Do- 
mingan Negro. It was not. however, until the turn of the century that the Negro 
population became a significant factor in the population composition of the city. 
There were only 323 colored persons in Chicago in 1850 ; in 1860 there were 950 ; 
in 1870, 3,696 ; in 1880, 6,480 ; in 1890, 14,270 ; in 1900, 3,150 ; and as late as 1910 
only 44,103. Between 1910 and 1930 the Negro population of the city increased 
by 203,753 persons— 84,459 between 1910 and 1920, and 109,594 between 1920 and 
1930. This represented an increase in the Negro population of Chicago of 148.2 
percent in the decade between 1910 and 1920, and 113.7 percent between 1920 
and 1930. During this 20-year period the Negro became an increasingly im- 
portant factor in the racial composition of the city. In 1900 Negroes constituted 
1.8 percent of the population of the city. Their percentage increased to 2 per- 
cent in 1910, to 3 percent in 1915, to 4.1 percent in 1920, to 5 percent in 1923, 
to 6 percent in 1925, and to approximately 7 percent in 1930. Thus since 1903 
the Negro population has grown at a faster rate than the total population of 
the city. From 1910 to 1930 the increase was at an increasing rate. 

The 1934 census of Chicago indicated that the Negro population had increased 
4.000 between 1930 and 1934. There has been no census taken since that date 
and no reliable figures or estimates are available. A number of persons and 
organizations, however, have made guesses as to the probable increase. Among 
them Mr. Lawrence Oxley, of the United States Employment Service, and Mr. 
Howard Gould, of the Chicago Urban League, estimated that there had been 
an increase in Negro population of approximately l.fXiO per month. If this esti- 
mate were true, the increase would amount to 60,000 for the period 1934 to 1940, 
making a total of approximately 294,000! as of March 1940. A number of news- 
papers, civic organizations, and real-estate associations have estimated the pres- 
ent Negro population to be 300,000. The writer is of the opinion that these fig- 
ures are much too high, but is not willing, with the evidence at hand, to venture 
a guess as to the probable number. The reason that the possible increase in 
Negro population has received the attention which it has is because a number 
of persons throughout the city feel that Negro migrants from the South become 
public charges. 

It should also be noted at this point that any increase in the Negro population 
will come as a result of migration. In Chicago, Negroes have the highest birth 
rate of any group, but the death rate is twice as high as that of the native whites 
and almost twice as high as that of the foreign-born whites. The infant mortality 
rate shows an even more startling difference. Thus, although the rate of natural 
increase for the foreign-born white was 10.4 and the native white 7.6, the Negro 
was increasing at a decreasing rate — that is, negative 2.9 percent. 

Ill 

TENDENCIES OF NEGRO MIGRATION SINCE 1900 

It has been stated before that any insight to the present migration of Negroes 
must be attained through a study of the history of the migratory movement 
which has characterized colored persons since the turn of the century. The 
most striking feature of northward migration during the post-war period was 
its individualism. The motives prompting thousands of Negroes were not always 



1090 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

the same, even in the case of close neighbors. In general, one can say that there 
was both a "pull" and a "push,'" each of which embodied a configuration of fac- 
tors. The economic "pull" of the North was the high wages and better iwsitions 
created by the need for a new supply of industrial labor caused by restrictions 
Imposed, first, by war, and then by the quota laws on European immigration. 
This, added to the acceleration of industry to meet the wartime needs made the 
Negro an important factor in the laljor "pool" of northern industry. Negro la- 
borers were solicited throughout the South by agents for such industries as steel 
and meat packing, and often they and their families were given free transporta- 
tion to the North. In some instances the entire conuuunity, including the teacher, 
preacher, and merchant, came together. Labor was at a premium and the Negro 
was the only group to fulfill that need. In a very real sense Negroes contrib- 
uted greatly to the winning of the first AVorld War by the contributions they 
made in keeping industry abreast with the wartime needs. 

The "push" which made Negroes willing and even anxious to move northward 
came from the unfavorable conditions urider which they were forced to live in 
the South. The boll weevil had endangered the whole cotton culture and the 
economic deprivation made Negroes more aware of the disparity between the 
high w^ages, superior social and educational institutions, and civil rights which 
might be enjoyed in the North, and the Jim Crow laws, poor schools, peonage, and 
lynchings from which they suffered in the South. In addition. Negroes too were 
affected by "the lure of the city" which was part of the general process of urban- 
ization and infiuenced all classes of people. 

Once this migration got under way its character changed and for a period it 
became a great mass movement. Under its imi)etus people who otherwise would 
have been content to have been in the South joined in. With the post-war de- 
pression in the middle twenties the northward movement slackened, and what 
had been a steady stream of migrants dwindled to a trickle of persons shuttling 
northward and southward in response to individual family and personal motives. 
More recently it has been alleged that a stream of migrants has been set in 
motion by the superior wages and allotments which are enjoyed by Negroes in 
the North from relief agencies. It is difficult to prove or refute such arguments. 
Indeed an increase of Negroes registered with social agencies or employed by the 
W.P.A. does not establish the fact that new migrants are coming. It is just as 
logical to assume that an increasing of the numbei' of Negroes (who live much 
closer to the poverty line) have l)een unable to maintain themselves any longer 
in private Industry. 

The income level of the Negro population in Chicago is surprisingly low. A 
study by the United States Department of Labor in l!»o6 demonstrated that 47.7 
percent of the Negro families in the city had an income which was less than 
$1,000 as compared with 16.8 percent of the white families, and again. 61.5 percent 
of the white families received $2,000 or less as compared with 1)0.2 percent of 
the Negro families. That a disproportionate number of Negroes are found on 
relief rolls is not then a surprising fact and simply reflects their inferior, subor- 
dinate, and insecure status in the economic structure of the city. 

Much has been made over the fact that Negroes constitute 7 percent of the 
total population but contribute 40 percent of the relief population. When it is 
taken into consideration that during the depression the Negro was first to be 
aft'ected and has not as yet recovered his former position, this figure is understand- 
able. In the first place, Negroes were relatively new in industry and thus had 
little seniority. Many Negroes, in fact most, were employed in industries which 
were not protected by unions. This lack of seniority and protection fi'om unions 
added to the fact that Negroes are concentrated in the lower income brackets of 
the industrial hierarchy, made them the first and the most permanent sufferers 
from the depression. Likewise, it should be noted that it has been the observa- 
tion of most of the employment service employees with whom I have talked that 
Negroes are being taken back into industry much less rapidly than are white 
workers. The result is that when the effects of the recovery are felt by other 
employees, Negroes are continuing to be unemployed, and their percentage or even 
their actual number on the relief and W.P.A. rolls conceivably will increase with- 
out fiirther migration. 

I do not mean to indicate that there has been no Negro migration since 1934, 
but I feel certain that its extent has been highly exaggerated. The fear of this 
migration has done much to make more tense race relation within the city. The 



INTERSTATE :MIGRATI0N 1Q9| 

reci'iir serrlement law which required 3 years" residence before an individual was 
eligible was, in the opinion of many ijers<nis. aimed directly at the Negro. That 
this law has "'boomeranged"' and has worked an injustice on many whites, who 
have mo\"ed from one township to another, indicates the danger and folly of at- 
tempting to single out a particular race against which to direct discriminatory 
legislation. Any plea for the alleviation of social problems in the Negro com- 
munity — such as, for example, the housing problem whereby Negroes rtay 2.") 
percent more rent than whites for similar housing facilities — is often met with 
The argument that to improve conditions in the Black Belt of Chicago would be 
ro invite hordes of black sharecroppers to invade the city. The growth of this 
myth is. in my opinion, the foremost factor in making difficult or impossible any 
improvement in the critical problems of housing, health, and unemployment 
among Negroes in the city. With no method of establishing the truth or falsity 
of the proposition there is little that can be accomplished until the results of the 
1940 census are made public. 

POSITION OF NEGRO IN URBAN CENTER 

The relati(mship between increases in the Negro population in cities and the 
problems of interracial adjustment are so intimately related that it is perhaps 
wise to spend some time on an analysis of the position of the Negro in a city such 
as Chicago and the possibility for increased tension which might arise from a 
ilisequilibrium in the delicately balanced race relations. 

The position of the Negro in Chicago and in most urban centers can be regarded 
from two viewpoints — Negroes as competitors and Negroes as a fixed status 
group. In certain areas of social life in Chicago, Negroes participate as competi- 
tors, in others they are noncompetitors. The competition of Negroes for space, 
for jobs, and for political power in Chicago is recognized both by Negroes and by 
whites. Underneath these there is, of course, the Darwinian "struggle for sur- 
vival" a basic and unconscious biological process in wliich, it has been pointed 
out, Negroes are steadily losing. Competition for space is a basic ecological 
process, which in a city where ethnical segregation occurs may be i-egarded as 
competition between ethnic groups. Whites in Chicago "allowed" Negroes to 
take over areas formerly occupied by whites until the next territory in the path of 
the "invaders" was of value from the viewpoint of The white inhabirants. Cinnpe- 
tition for space has been limited by restrictive covenants which epitomizes the 
principle of fixed status in the housing field. Negroes are limited in their compe- 
tition for jobs by lack of skills and training as well as race prejudice and prob- 
ably only in times of labor shortage are Negroes (ompeting with whites on 
equal terms. 

The political power of Negroes is fully realized by Chicago's politicians and by 
Chicago ]\^egroes themselves, though they have never been able to exert tlie influ- 
ence which their vote should give them. However, in politics, Negroes have 
made gains which could not have been attained through other means. 

As a result of the limitations which have Itecn placed upon Negroes, there has 
develo))ed in ("hicago a compact, pliysically isolated group, unable to enjoy most 
of the facilities enjoyed by the general population, and appearing to many whites 
as a constant threat to their property values, their health, their moral standing 
and their community organization. This conflict between the drive for the Negro 
for income, security, and status and the fear on the part of the white population, 
whipped up by antagonistic real estate interests and reactionary commercial 
groups, who fear Negroes might become public charges has, and probably will 
in the future break into open conflict. The race riot of 1019 resulted from the 
competition of Negroes with middle class whites for residential areas and with 
working class wiiites for jobs. The problems of adjustment which face an even 
larger population at the present time are basically the same, with one important 
additioiial complicating factor. In 1919 Negroes antagonized a section of the 
white middle class by moving into "their" territory and a section of the working 
class by competing with them for jobs. At the present time the additional prob- 
lem of the reacti(»n of large and influential groups throughout the city — civic 
leaders, businessmen, mainifacturers, and industrialists, and social workers — 
who ai-e ntider the in)pression That the invading hordes of black share croppers 



]^Q92 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

will inundate the city and become a public burden is present. The racial preju- 
dice which is to be found within most classes of white citizens in America, is 
being augmented by the sharp fear of the possible increase of taxes from an 
increased relief load. This had made large groups of persons aware of the 
"Negro problem" and has robbed Negroes of the tolerance of a group of persons 
with whom they have not previously been in direct contact. Now, the building 
of a school in the Negro area, the beginning of a hospital drive, the installation 
of a tratfic light, or any other minor improvement in the Negro community, calls 
forth from great numbers of these groups, a reiteration of the prevalent myth 
concerning further Negro migration. 

V 

RIi:SUME OF PRESENT PROBLEMS AND SUGGESTED SOLUTIONS 

In previous sections the writer has attempted to point out that much of the 
fear that large groups of Negroes are migrating to the city is unfounded. He has 
also attempted to sliow the disastrous effect which this belief has had on the 
difficult problem of interracial adjustment in the city. The obvious question 
which presents it.self is that of the establishment of a policy of control. Un- 
doubtedly as long a^ there are differences in economic opportunities in various 
sections of the country there will be a tendency for some of the iwpulatiqn to 
move to those areas which offer them better opportunities. Such noneconomic 
factors as .sentimental attachment to various localities, cultural identification 
with various sections and plain lethargy, are in my opinion likely to be under- 
estimated by persons who put too great emphasis on purely economic factors. The 
difficulty in attempting to plan a migration policy in respect to the Negro is 
that racial prejudice might encourage policies which would act as a precedent 
for stripping Negroes of their constitutional rights. With the failure of the 3- 
year settlement law there will be, undoubtedly, attempts to legislate more directJv 
against Negroes on the basis of color. That these laws would not be constitutional 
will not necessarily deter persons from introducing them. It is obvious that this 
form of legislation strikes at the heart of our democratic ideology which is more 
important to preserve at the present time than is the development of a migration 
policy. It is certain, however, that as long as the myth of migration continues 
extra-legal methods, including dLscriminatory behavior on the part of public 
officials and agencies and even vigilante movements will develop. 

It has been pointed out that Negroes were needed to meet the expanding indus- 
try during the first World War. At the present time the Negro constitutes the 
only labor pool from which an expanding war economy can draw. If America 
should become involved in war, doubtless the situation in 1916 would be repeated 
and labor agents from Chicago would again scour the South to offer free trans- 
portation to sharecroppers. Many of the persons now connected with the basic 
industries who are decrying the possibility of further Negro migration might of 
necessity find it necessary to reverse their position. Any barriers to iwpulation 
movements, even if legal, might in a critical moment seriously hamiier the rearm- 
ament program of the Nation. 

It is the opini(»n of the writer, then, that attempts to control the migration of 
Negroes, even if such migration fi'om the point of the community welfare was ill- 
advised, might endanger the constitutional rights of Negroes (and therefore the 
constitutional rights of all persons), and might prevent a smooth adjustment of 
the labor force to the expansion of productive facilities of the country. At the 
present moment it is obvious to any student of the problem that sutticient data are 
not at hand to evaluate the social consequences of this migration much less 
attempt to determine what would be a socially justifiable policy. The need for 
further study is to the writer the one obvious conclusion. 

The nature of the adjustment of Negroes to cities is the result of many 
different factors. The type of adjustment varies according to the type of 
migrants — their background, birthplace, sex, age, and expectations : according to 
the type of city — its location, its size, age, and economic function ; according to the 
historical, social, and economic circumstances under which the migration occurred, 
both in points of origin and points of destination ; and according to the volume of 
migration at any given period. From the study of all of these facts in relation 
to the adjustment of Negroes to cities could be derived not only a general state- 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1093 

ment as to the present nature of Negro-white relations in the city studied, but 
also a description of the adjustment of Negroes to specific cities, and ultimately a 
hypothesis on which to predict the nature of the adjustment of future migrants to 
specific cities and types of cities. When such data are available it will be possible 
to plan a rational migration policy. 

The problems of the adjustment of the urban Negro are not at the present time 
receiving the attention of scholars or Government agencies which their importance 
warrants. There is no institution which is specifically engaged in research on 
Negroes in our northern cities. If the belief of some students, whose opinion is 
that there will be a continued migration of Negroes to the city, is true, the future 
area of most severe interracial tension will shift northward to an urban milieu. 
The establishment of an institute for the gathering and compiling of data on this 
problem is of pressing necessity. The study of the Negro in the city would include 
gathering data on existence of such problems as crime, delinquency, incidence of 
contagious diseases, unsanitary living conditions, open conflict with other groups 
for jobs and residential areas, and those social unhealthy conditions that have 
caused such occurrences as the Chicago race riot of 1919, the economic boycott of 
the South Side in the late twenties, and the Harlem riot of 1935. Only through 
the understanding of the position of the Negro in northern cities, which can be 
obtained through unbiased scientific material, can we gain the information and 
insight necessary for dealing with this great problem. Any program of action 
which is not based upon factual data, that is directed against any specific group 
rather than the solution of the economic and social problem of the distribution of 
men and resources, may lead to serious difficulties. There is already evident an 
attempt to "black wash" the relief problem and to fight the giving of adequate 
support by raising the race question — by attempting to show that Negroes gamble 
and drink up their relief allotment and that more and more are coming from the 
South to further burden the city. We know from our observation of various 
European countries the danger of allowing persons to fight an economic and social 
problem through focusing the antagonisms of the community on a scapegoat race. 



TESTIMONY OF HOWARD D. GOULD AND FRAYSER T. LANE— 

Resumed 

Mr. OsMERs. Have you studied his statement ? 

Mr. Gould. Yes. I have o-one over it. 

Mr. OsMERS. You have o:one over the statement, and feel qualified 
to give the committee some views in connection with that statement? 

Mr. Gould. Yes. 

Mr. OsMERS. I am not going to call upon you individually. I am 
just going to shoot questions at you, and whichever ones you feel 
(jualified to answer, I will leave that up to you. 

Mr. Gould. All right. 

Mr. OsMERS. When did the great increase in tlie Negro population 
of the North occur, and what caused the sudden exodus from tlie 
South? 

NEGRO MIGRATION TO NORTH — 1914 

Mr. Gould. The migration began shortly after the outbreak of the 
World War, between 1913 and 1914, June of 1913 and June of 1914. 
The industries of the North had been expanding. They had been 
absorbing migrants from Europe. That year there Avere approxi- 
mately l,4o4,0(J0 migrants from Europe. 

In August of 1914 war broke out, stopping migration from Eiiiope 
completely. At the same time, the demand of the industries in the 



IQQ4: INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

North and Middle West remained, and they went south in order to 
recruit labor ; the labor available was the Negro. They sent south and 
began to bring Negro workers not only to Chicago, but to all of the 
industrial centers of the North and Middle West, where there was a 
wartime boom. 

Mr. OsMERS. What was the economic lot of the Negroes from the 
South in the first migration to the North, from 1913 to 1919? 

Mr. Gould. At that time they were bringing tliose i^eople in to give 
them work, specifically. 

Mr. OsMERS. Yes, 

Mr. Gould. They were bringing them in directly to jobs. 

Mr. OsMERS. What were those jobs paying? 

Mr. Gould. Wages were high at that time. They ran about $1 an 
hour and in excess of that at times. 

Mr. OsMERs. So they leally were brought to a very favorable 
economic situation? 

Mr. Gould. From tlie work standpoint ; yes, they were. 

Mr. OsMERS. Yes. 

Mr. Gould. There were housing i)roblems, tliougli. 

Mr. OsMERS. There weie housing i)roblems tliat were created by 
that situation? 

Mr. Gould. Yes. 

Mr. OsMERS. How did the city of Chicago solve that housing prob- 
lem, or didn't they solve it ? Did it solve itself through pressure ? 

Mr. Gould. It solved itself through pressure, by people squeezing 
in where they could double up and triple up, and quadruple up. There 
was extreme overcrowding. 

Mr. OsMERS. Was there great resistance on the part of the white 
population in the city of Chicago to that pressure ? 

Mr. Gould. Yes. 

Mr. OsMERS. Was there resistance to expanding the area in which 
the Negro of necessity had to live at that time? 

Mr. Gould. There was some resistance at certain points, certain 
sections of the city. 

Mr. OsMERS. Yes. 

Mr. Gould. Although tlie idea of resistance can be greatly overdone. 

Mr. OsMERS. To what areas in the North did most of these migrants 
come? 

Mr. Gould. They moved into the major industrial centers, swinging 
east into New York, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Cleveland, 
Columbus, and all of the Oliio cities; Toledo, Detroit, Chicago, and 
St. Louis. 

Mr. OsMERS. Down at our Montgomery hearing, we had Dr. Valien 
of Fisk University before the committee, and he expressed the opinion 
tliat there were a great many parallels between the present situation 
and the one that existed in 1914. Do you agree with that ? 

Mr. Lane. I do not think there are a great many parallels, although 
there may be some few. There may be common social and political 
pressures as far as the Negro is concerned, in the South. That might 
l)e the same as it was then. But, as Mr. Gould has already stated, in 
tlie earlier war period, in that migration, men were invited up. Labor 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1095 

a<^eiits were sent down to offer them jobs and pay their w^ay to come 
;ip here. You do not have that kind of situation existing now. 

Mr. OsMERS. Taking, for example, my own State of New Jersey, 
which has seen a great industrial pick-up in the last 2 years. There 
has been such an industrial pick-up that at present we have a labor 
shortage in the State in skilled categories. Do you not feel, carrying 
that out througli the rearmament program again, that we are going to 
have a labor shortage in tlie North, and again those same forces will 
be at work 'i 

Mr. Lane. It all depends, as far as the Negro is concerned. Many 
of those industries are unionized and do not absorb Negroes easily. 
In some industries they do not employ Negroes, where they have 
unionized shops. 

NEGROES AND LABOR UNIONISM 

Mr. OsMERS. Would you make the general statement, or agree with 
the general statement, that labor unionism in the North will work 
against the migration of Negroes from the South? 

Mr. Lane. I vrould not make that statement. 

Mr. Osmers. With particular reference to the preparedness program 
and the skilled labor? 

Mr. Lane. Would you want to comment on that? 

Mr. Gould. No; I would not agree. Barriers against new workers 
erected by labor unions only exist on a seniority basis. When there is 
a demand for labor, the labor unions themselves do not restrict mem- 
bership. If there is sufficient demand for labor so that all of the 
local workers are employed, you will not find any barriers erected by 
the labor unions. 

Mr. Osmers. In my personal opinion, I do not agi-ee with that state- 
ment. I believe there are some unions that are attempting to exclude 
Negroes, no matter how good business gets. 

Mr. Gould. That would be true, but the men would still be coming 
in as laborers. 

Mr. Osmers. You mean on the lower economic scale ? 

Mr. Gould. Yes. 

Mr. Osmers. Of course, that would not have any bearing upon the 
unionization of the skilled laborers. Naturally, the Chicago Urban 
League, which you represent, has made a very intensive study of the 
Negro problem in Chicago. 

]Mr. Gould. Yes. 

Mr. Osmers. I know that, because I used to read your magazine, 
Opportunity — is that it? 

Mr. Gould. Yes. 

Mr. Osmers. James Weldon Johnson used to be a great contributor, 
I believe. 

Mr. Gould. Yes. 

Mr. Osmers. I used to read it with a great deal of interest. Was 
this study of the Chicago situation completed by the Urban League ? 

Mr. Gould. Yes. 

260370—40 — pt. 3 19 



JQQQ INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

INCOME OF NEGROES IN CHICAGO 

Mr. OsMERS. What did you find to be the average income of Negroes 
in this city ? 

Mr. Gould. We did this : We decided it would be difficult to cleter- 
mine the income of Negroes by a single average, because in examining 
the entire group we found they fell into three classes. For example, 
there are those persons who are employed in the steel mills, the pack- 
ing plants, and some of the big factories in Chicago, like the Inter- 
national Harvester Co., who work in skilled occupations and have been 
with those concerns for a number of years, where the employment is 
fairly steady. They make a pretty good wage. 

We arrived at these three averages : The group of men represented 
in the higher bracket consisted of about 20 percent of the total Negro 
population and had an average income of between $1,800 and $2,000 
a year. That is the 20-percent group. There is another group num- 
bering between 35 and 40 percent of the Negro population. This is 
as of the present moment I am giving these statistics. 

Mr. Os3iERs. Yes. 

Mr. Gould. The second group consists of people who are employed, 
in the case of women, in the garment shops, where they are protected 
by minimum-wage legislation and men who are employed as porters 
and occupations of that kind, and then, too, the laborers in the meat- 
packing plants and steel mills and on the railroads. The average 
income of this group, the average annual income would be approxi- 
mately $1,000 a year. 

Mr. OsMERs. Yes. 

NEGROES ON RELIEF 

Mr. Gould. Then we have a large group, the remaining 40 percent 
consisting of persons who are not now employed, who are in fact em- 
ployable, whose income is derived through W. P. A., or through the 
aid of the Chicago Relief Administration. Of that 40 percent, ap- 
proximately 15 percent of them will be W. P. A. workers with an 
average annual wage of $55 a month. The remaining 25 percent would 
be on relief, and their average income would vary with the size of their 
family. In many cases it would not be more than $350 or $400 a year. 

Mr. OsMERs. So at the most, 40 percent of the Negro population 
in Chicago is not self-supporting? 

Mr. Gould. That is right. 

INIr. Os:mers. Would you tell the committee your interpretation of 
the fact that so man}' Negroes, such a large percentage of the Negroes 
in Chicago, are on relief? 

Mr. Gould. Yes. The majority of the Negroes that came to Chi- 
cago were employed in three brackets, the iron and steel industry, the 
packing industry, and the building industry or construction industry. 
When the depression hit, those industries were most aifected by the 
decline. Steel, for example, fell to 20 percent of capacity. Build- 
ing construction fell oif to 10 percent of the normal level. Therefore, 
})erhaps 80 or 90 percent of the people engaged in iron and steel pro- 
duction and in building construction were unemployed. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1097 

Since the great majority of the Negroes who were employed were 
employed in those industries, they were harder hit than w^ould be 
true of the population generally, and a larger proportion of Negroes 
than of the population generally had to find their only assistance 
through the Relief Administration. 

Now then, recently, although those industries have picked up, this 
is what has happened : A man, we will assume, in the steel industry 
when the depression came, was 40 years old. Now in 1940 when the 
steel industry is booming he is 50 years old. He does not go back into 
the industry. 

Mr. OsMERS. You have the age factor coming into it now? 

Mr. Gould. Yes. 

Mr. OsMERS. Is it your belief that tliese numbers on relief have been 
increased as a result of migration from the South ? 

Mr. Lane. I am sure they have been, because there have been migra- 
tions from the South since relief has started. There are many people 
on relief who have not been able to get satisfactory jobs, so they have 
contributed to the relief increase. 

Mr. OsMERs. I see. 

Mr. Gould. Not so much, though, for this reason : The majority of 
the people coming in here as migrants come in from the rural areas of 
the South. 

Mr. OsMERs. Yes. 

Mr. Gould. They are used to woi-king hard. They come in here to 
Chicago primarily to find work. The Chicagoan, the Negro living in- 
Chicago, is accustomed to the fact that there is no Avork. He has 
looked here for a job. He couldn't find one. He has looked quite 
some time. He has become somewhat imbued with the thought or ha& 
succumbed or submitted to the thought that there is no work. 

The migrant comes in, and this is what happens : A migrant is not 
accustomed to going to the steel mills or to the meat-packing plants. 
He just walks down the street looking for a job. He w^ill tend to- 
look for work a lot of places where the ordinary resident who lives in 
Chicago and knows all about the city does not. You will find migrants 
picking up jobs, odd jobs as day laborers and odd jobs as helpers in all 
sorts of places. The investigation we have made of several thousand 
cases tends to show that over half of the migrants actually land some 
kind of job before they have been in Chicago 2 weeks. 

Mr. OsMERS. As I understand it, migrants coming into the city of 
Chicago would have to be here for some period of time before they 
would be eligible for relief, would they not ? 

Mr. Gould. Three years. 

Mr. OsMERS. He certainly could not live for 3 years on the meager 
resources he brought with him from the South. It is not likely that 
anyone woidd support him here. Would not the pressure of hunger 
contribute a great deal toward his getting employment ? 

Mr. Lane. I did not mean to give the impression that they came here 
to get relief. P^ventually, after working at smaller jol)s. and so forthy 
some of them finally do get on relief. 

Mr. OsMERS. I understood the point I think you were driving at 
there. I wonder if you would compare for the committee the posi- 



j;Qg§ INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

tion of the Negro and the white person during tlie hist decade in Chi- 
cago with reference to those in the lower-income level? 

HOUSING PROBLEM OF NEGROES IN CHICAGO 

Mr. Gould. The administration of relief, of course, has provided 
the same budgets for one group as the other, but there has been this 
difference, and the difference arises through the housing problem in 
Chicago : The areas in which Negroes live are definite and are restricted 
by a system of restrictive covenants we have here. That means that 
the number of homes Negroes occupy is limited. Then in addition to 
that, back in 1933 and 1934 they had a demolition program, through 
which 

Mr. OsMERs. In what years? 

Mr. Gould. 1935 was the biggest year; 1934, 1935, and 1936. 

Mr. OsMERs. Yes. 

Mr. Gould. They demolished buildings, so-called unsafe or unsani- 
tary buildings. 

Mr. OsMERS. Did they replace them? 

Mr. Gould. They did not. They demolished 5,000 or 6,000 housing 
units. Tliat meant there was very definitely a shortage of houses. 
The shortage of homes had the peculiar phenomena of increasing rents 
during a depression period, and as a result the Negro group have had to 
pay rents running two or three times as high, to use a figure in a 
comparison of that kind, than the white person on relief. 

The white person on relief might be able to find a small home con- 
sisting of four or five rooms which he could rent for $15 or $20 a month. 
The Negro on relief will take his family of four or five persons and be 
forced to rent only one room for the whole five and he would pay from 
$5 to $7 a w^eek for that room, his rental for the month being between 
$20 to $30. 

Mr. OsMERS. For the purposes of the record, I wonder if you would 
transpose the Negro's rent to monthly terms^ so we can have the 
comparison. 

Mr. Gould. The white person would pay $15 to $18 a month for a 
four- or five-room place. The Negro would pay from $20 to $30 a 
month for one room. 

Mr. OsMERS. $20 to $30 a month for one room ? 

Mr. Gould. Yes. 

Mr. O.^MERS. Are you absolutely sure of that figure? 

Mr. Gould. Yes. 

Mr. L.\NE. The Chicago Relief Administration has a policy of $25 
a month for one room, with steam heat and lighting. 

Ml'. OsMERS $25 a month for one room? 

Mr. Lane. That is right. 

Mr. OsMERS. The whole family is supposed to live in that one room? 

Mr. Gould, They do, and in some cases two families. 

Mr. OsMERS. Two families? 

Mr. Lane. Yes. 

Mr. Gould, We have gone up as high as 9 and 11 persons living in 1 
room. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1099 

Mr. OsMERS. So if a Nejjro family in Chicago wanted to have four 
rooms, it conld cost him $80 a month ? 

Mr. Gould. It could. Actually, the landlords would rather divide 
up apartments into small units, and are not eager to rent larger apart- 
ments. 

Mr. Osmers. It does not ? 

Mr. Gould. No. 

Mr. Osmers. You can get four rooms probably for $40? 

Mr. Gould. Fifty dollars. 

J\Ir. Osmers. Forty or fifty dollars? 

Mr. Gould. Yes. 

JNIr. Osmers. Which would be extremely high rent. 

INIr. Gould. Yes. 

]\Ir. Osmers. It would be out of the question for the relief family ? 

Mr. Gould. Yes. 

JNIr. Parsons. May I interrupt you at that point ? 

Mr. Osmers. Yes. 

projected housing program 

Mr. Parsons. Has not anything been done by the local authorities 
here in the Avay of a housing program ? 

Mr. Gould. We had a lot of opposition to our housing program, Mr. 
Congressman, at the start, but now it is nearing completion. In about 
4 months the housing project will be completed, and will be one of the 
largest in the country, housing 1,700 families. That will be of con- 
siderable help to us. 

Mr. Osmers. When will that be completed ? 

Mv. Gould. They hope people will begin to move in in November. 

Mr. Paesons. What is the rent going to be ? What is it going to cost 
colored people for this, for decent livino; quarters ? 

Mr. Gould. It will cost them from $18 to $25. Eighteen dollars 
would be for the three- or four-room apartments. For approximately 
$25 they would have a five- or six-room apartment. 

Mr. Parsons. They can get an apartment to live in, those who are 
fortunate enough to get into these new apartments, this new structure — 
they can get decent housing quarters for about what they are paying 
for one room now ? 

Mr. Gould. Yes. 

Mr. Osmers. Will this housing project be erected by the United 
States Housing Authority? 

Mr. Gould. Yes. 

Mr. Osmers. Do you happen to know whether they wnll restrict those 
apartments to income-earning families, or will relief people be 
allowed to move in ? 

Mr. Gould. They will admit, as they have to other projects in Chi- 
cago, persons who are on relief. 

RACE relations IN CHICAGO 

Mr. Osmers. Thei-e is a question I would like to touch on, because it 
is very, very important: What is happening to race relations in the 



]^]^00 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

city of Chicago as a result of great relief percentage, poor housing 
conditions, and the great pressure under which Negroes must live in 
this city? 

Mr. "Gould. There are two schools of thought, or two reactions. 
Some people contend race antagonism is increasing because, for ex- 
ample, of the legal battle now going on over the restrictive covenants. 

Mr. OsMERS. Will you define that term "restrictive covenants," 
before you go any further ? 

Mr, GoTJLD. They are covenants entered into by the property owners 
through w^hich they agree not to rent or sell the property to Negroes. 

Mr. OsMERS. They agree between themselves, or with the city? 

Mr. Gould. Between themselves. 

Mr. OsMERS. They agree not to allow Negroes into their real estate ? 

Mr. Gould. Yes. 

Mr. Lane. That is, with respect to living in property on the street. 
They can live in servants' quarters in the back of the premises in a 
restricted area. 

Mr. OsMERS. But they must live as servants; that is, they must be 
bona fide domestics? 

Mr. Gould. Yes. 

Mr. Lane. They must be bona fide domestics. 

Mr. Gould. There is that one source of antagonism, perhaps, be- 
tween just a few people. By and large, race relations in Chicago are 
improving very steadily. 

Mr. OsMERS. That would be your opinion? 

Mr. Gould. That would be my opinion. That would be evidenced 
by the willingness of employers to consider the problem of Negro 
labor ; to consider meeting in conference and discussing the possibility 
of providing jobs for Negroes. It would be evidenced by the attitude 
of labor unions, the unions' willingness to take Negroes into member- 
ship. It is evidenced by the attitude of the city generally, which has 
adopted a broad attitude in that regard. 

Mr. OsMERS. Do you feel that the large number of Negroes on relief 
in Chicago has contributed to the new 3-year settlement law that was 
passed? 

Mr. Gould. Yes ; I do. 

Mr. OsMERS. You think that was a factor ? 

Mr. Gould. I think so. 

Mr. OsMERS. Would you say that is working a hardship solely upon 
Negroes ? 

Mr. Gould. No; it is not. 

Mr. Lane. It is working a hardship both on whites and Negroes. 

Mr. OsMERS. That is the point I wanted to make there. 

Mr. Gould. It does work a hardship on both. 

Mr. Lane. There are a lot of white people who move away, and who 
have then returned and attempted to secure assistance from the State, 
and it has worked a hardship on them, as well as people coming in 
from the Southern States. 

Mr. OsMERS. It has a tendency then to freeze population? 

Mr. Gould. Yes. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1101 

Mr. OsMERS. And make it more static, because it restricts the move- 
ment of destitute persons? 

Mr. Gould. I think it works a greater hardship on white people. 

Mr. OsMERS. Now, if the 48 States should preserve these rigid settle- 
ment laws that are now on the books, is it your opinion that might have 
some adverse effect upon our rearmament program if there should be 
a shortage of labor in the North here? 

Mr. Gould. Frankly; no. 

Mr. OsMERS. You do not think it would? 

Mr. Gould. No. In other words, people living in Chicago, for ex- 
ample, who migrated in here in the first migration, as far as Negroes 
are concerned, have friends and relatives living in the South. They 
go back to visit their friends and relatives when they are sick, when 
they are ill, or when someone dies. 

Now, for example, we will assume they needed workers in the steel 
mills out in South Chicago. The word would pass very rapidly to 
various sections of the country. Those men would come in specifically 
because they knew they were going to the jobs in the steel mills. 

Mr. OsMERS. They would not hesitate to inform them about it, be- 
cause they would feel they would be self-supporting when they got 
here ? 

Mr. Gould. Yes. 

Mr. Lane. I would like to mention one fact. There seems to be a 
tendency now on the part of the Federal Government, especially in 
this defense program, to provide adequate housing for people who are 
going to places where labor is needed. Without supervision of that, 
there may be a great deal of hardships and difficulties similar to situa- 
tions where private agencies have had labor go into places without 
any adequate living quarters. 

Mr. OsMERS. Have you found in Chicago that your public employ- 
ment offices have given Negroes a fair share of their recognition and 
their opportunity ? 

Mr. Gould. Yes. 

Mr. OsMERS. The public employment offices? 

Mr. Gould. Yes. The United States Employment Service oper- 
ates jointly with the Illinois State Unemployment Service and has 
been very cooperative and very fair in every respect. 

Mr. OsMEKS. They have received applications and hunted jobs out 
without any prejudice or malice? 

Mr. Gould. Yes. That is right. 

RECOMMENDATIOXS FOR FEDERAL AID 

Mr. OsMERS. I see. Do you believe in general it would be a wase 
thing for this Government and this country to concentrate on its 
program of improving rural conditions in the South, or do you think 
that they should concentrate their efforts upon making the North 
more attractive? 

Mr. Gould. I would say this : From a technical point of view, most 
of the problem arises not from migration due to a desire to obtain 
relief, or anything like that, but is due rather to the desire of those 



11Q2 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

people down there to make a living. They leave, primarily, with the 
thought or the idea that they can land jobs here in the city. 

I would say this: First of all, there is the difficulty involved in 
improving or devising programs of development in the South. Pro- 
grams of that type would be better perhaps than j^roviding something 
in the North, although it seems to me this should be done. A pro- 
gram should be devised that would tend to eliminate, through the 
Federal Government, the suffering in areas where the situation is such 
that unemployed are not cared for by local governments. I should 
say the Government should also look into the possibilities of develop- 
ing a program which would tend to — I will use a slang expression — 
boost the economy of those areas migrants are leaving, because there 
is another problem involved in the migration to large cities. Indus- 
try is becoming decentralized, but the migrants are moving into this 
region at the same time the industries are moving out. 

Mr. OsMERS. That is all I have. 

Mr. Parsons. Are there any other questions ? 

Mr. Sparkman. Yes. I was interested in the housing project you 
described, consisting of 1,700 units, I believe you said. 

Mr. Gould. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. Will that be sufficient to relieve the pressure to 
such an extent that prices will be adjusted to a more normal level? 

Mr. Gould. I do not think so. There is extreme overcrowding, 
and the pressure is very great. However, I do think this many units 
will help a great deal. 

]\Ir. Sparkman. Are there any other projects underway or contem- 
plated? 

Mr. Gould. The Authority has been considering another project, 
but it has been moving very slowly with it. 

Mr. Lane. I might mention that about 1,700 units were displaced 
when they tore down and prepared the land for this new building, 
so that you simply would be replacing just a few more than you actu- 
ally tore down. 

Mr. Sparkman. Was that number involved in this, the 5,000 or 
some such number you mentioned were demolished? 

Mr. Gould. No. 

Mr. Sparkman. The 5,000 units that were demolished were in addi- 
tion to these 1,700? 

Mr. Lane. Yes. 

Mr. Gould. Yes. 

Mr. Sparkman. That is all. 

Mr. OsMERS. I notice in Dr. Cayton's statement, he makes refer- 
ence to the fact, as I recall the statement, that the increase in the 
Negro population is negative. There has been no substantial increase 
in the native Chicago Negro population. With the death rate being 
as high as it is, it has tended to keep the population about even. 

Mr. Gould. That was for a period of 4 or 5 years, 1933, 1934, 1935, 
1936, and 1937. As to the death rate and the birth rate, tlie exact 
figures were around 4.100 births and 4.200 deaths; then 4,200 births 
and 4,100 deaths. Last year it jumped again. For 1939 there were 
a few more than 5,000 births and only 4,200 deaths. We are beginning 
to have a small natural increase. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1103 

Mr. OsMEKS. A small natural increase of native Chicagoans? 

Mr. Gould. Yes. 

Mr. OsMERS. So that the Negro population has started to increase 
very slightly ? 

Mr. Gould. Yes. 

Mr. OsMERS. And any important increase in the population would 
come through migration ? 

Mr. Gould. That is right. 

Mr. OsMERS. That is, within the next 10 years? 

Mr. Gould. Yes. 

Mr. OsMERS. Not through an increase of the birth rate over the 
death rate? 

Mr. Goui d. That is correct. 

Mr. OsMERs. That is all. 

Mr. ParsojSS. Are there any other questions? (No response.) Do 
you live in Congressman Arthur Mitchell's district ? 

Mr. GoTTLD. Yes. We both do. 

Mr. Pi^Rpoxs. Do you know your Congressman? 

Mr. Gould. We know the Congressman. 

Mr. Parsons. Is he giving you satisfactory representation in 
Congress ? 

Mr. Gould. ]\Iay this be off the record ? 

Mr. Parsons. Yes. Off the record. Mr. Reporter. 

(Discussion outside the record.) 

Mr. Parfons. The statement which lias been prepared by Dr. Cayton 
will be received as part of the formal record. Thank you, gentlemen. 

(Whereupon, Mr. Gould and Mr. Lane were excused.) 

Mr. Parsons. At this time I wish to say to the committee that Mv. 
Walter W. Finke, director of the division of social welfare, de- 
partment of social security, St. Paid, Minn., has submitted a state- 
ment. He was unable to come here personally. It seems to me to 
be a very fine statement. Without oljjection it will be made a part 
of our formal record. 



Statement by Walter W. Finke, Director. Division of Social Welfare, Depart- 
ment OF Social Secltrity, St. Paut.. IMinn. 

interstate migration OF destitute citizens as it affects the state of MINNESOTA 

This statement is prepared at the request of Representative John H. Tolan and 
relates to the problem of needy and destitute migrant persons so far as the State 
of Minnesota is concerned. The statement attempts, in brief compass, to describe 
the nature and breadth of this problem in Minnesota. Unfortunately, little or no 
data which are statistically accurate and r-onplete are available. However, the 
experience of State and State-Federal welfare and relief agencies which liave 
been at grips with this problem for the past 10 years in the State of Minnesota 
furnish the basis for a reliable analysis of the whole problem in more general 
terms. 

For the purpose of this statement, the following definitions are used in order 
to clear tlie confusion as between the terms "migrant" and "transient"' : 

Migrant. — Worker on the move: one who follows seasonal employment witli the 
seasons : one who intends to go on. 

Transient. — Worker who has gone off the road (or was never on it) and is 
temporarily settled, often without work in view. 



1104 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



It should be pointed out that both of these categories of persons do not have 
the period of residence within the State necessary to give them the status known 
as "legal settlement." Hence, at present, such persons cannot legally be provided 
with assistance from State funds appropriated for general relief purposes. Under 
section 8 of chapter 436 of the Session Laws of Minnesota for l^JAQ which appro- 
priated State funds for the poor and which provided for the administration ot 
these State funds, the legislature stipulated that "Before a person is^ entitled to 
the benefits of this act, he shall have maintained a settlement m this State • ■ 
for the period of 2 years * * *." It should further be noted that, in view of 
this limitation upon State funds which are provided to local governmental units 
as a supplement to cover total relief costs, that these local subdivisions uf govern- 
ment have limited the granting of assistance to needy migrants or transients to 
only the most necessitous emergency situations and, even in that event, only upon 
a brief and temporary basis. This legal-legislative situation is undoubtedly sub- 
stantiallv similar to that which prevails in most States. 

The number of migrants who enter Minnesota annually hi search of seasonal 
employment including those who make up the families of such migrants, has been 
varioiislv estimated from 15,000 to 25,000 people. The vast majority of these 
persons, when their seasonal work is completed, move on to other States in search 
of further seasonal employment. However, a small percentage remains in the 
State either by reason of illness, lack of funds, or the hope of further employ- 
ment' in Minnesota. Records of the former State relief agency indicate that in 
the year 1938, 293 migrant families remained in Minnesota and applied for and 
received some form of temporary assistance. In 1939 the figures are approxi- 
mately the same. The.se figures represent only the known cases. 

By way of general definition, it may be indicated that the industries in Minne- 
sota which offer employment to the migrant are: (1) The sugar-be.-t industry 
(2) the timber industry; (3) the truck-gardening and canning industries; (4) 
general agriculture; and (5) the Great Lakes shipping trade. 

The sufjur-beet industry.— The sugar-beet industry in Minnesota requires and 
employs between 3,000 and 4,000 migrant laborers annually. This is for the 
blocking and thinning and pulling and topping processes of raising and harvesting 
the sugar beets. These migrants are predominantly Mexican. The employment 
is seasonal and covers only approximately 60 workdays between May and July 
and between September and November. A study of this group, made in 1937 and 
1938 by the Minnesota State Relief Agency, indicated that the majority of this 
labor comes from the States of Texas, Kansas, and Missouri. These persons enter 
Minnesota during May and leave during November. There is a normal industrial 
demand for this tvpe of migratory labor in this particular industry- 

The usual method of transportation for these people is by automobile or truck. 
Often the trucks used in bringing these people to Minnesota are ordinary cattle 
trucks that carry between 30 and 40 persons on each trip. The emigration of this 
group begins as 'soon as the beet crop is harvested. While little is known of the 
group of beet workers that leave Minnesota each fall, there has grown up a 
residual group of nonresidents who present serious welfare problems. It is 
estimated that this residual group now exceeds 6,000 in total number throughout 
the State A studv made of this group by the State relief agency m 1965-67 
indicated the predominant need of relief in this group, a prevalence of poor 
and inadequate housing, retardation of children of school age, and serious health 
and child-welfare problems. Legal limitation on expenditure of State funds for 
nonresidents and the financial inability of local units of government to make pro- 
vision for anvthing except urgent emergency situations, both medical and other- 
wise, has made it diflicult to develop any sound program of assistance and 
service for this group of persons. 

TJie timber industrv.— It is estimated that the timber industry annually attracts 
between 2,000 and 3,000 migrant laborers to northern Minnesota. These workers 
are almost without exception single men looking for employment ni the timber 
camps Sample studies have indicated that this group comes from Michigan, 
Wisconsin, North Dakota, and Washington. These men, arriving in the early 
fall, seldom have definite employment upon their arrival. However, the majority 
of them secure jobs as soon as work opens up in the timber camps. 

The problem created bv this group of migrants is that of providing temporary 
assistance to them during the interval which occurs after their arrival and before 
they obtain work. Such data as is available from the old State rehef agency 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1105 

indicates that in 193,9 over 1,000 of these men received some form of temporary 
assistance. Here again, the presence of legal restrictions and the financial in- 
ability of local subdivisions of government to assume this burden, have made 
diffieiilt the care of this group of migrants. 

The truck-gardening and canning industries.— The truck-gardening and the 
canning industries attract and use an estimated 1,000 to 2,000 migrant workers 
annually in Minnesota. 

Few of these workers have employment when they migrate to Minnesota, but 
it should be noted that many of them are beet workers who arrived in Minnesota 
too late to secure beet contracts and then secured garden work. These migrants 
are family units who travel by automobile and move continuously until they find 
work. When their work is completed, they usually return to the Southern 
States where they spend the winter. The canning industries use this type of 
labor for the short period of time necessary to pick the corn. The season is 
short and once completed the laborer and his family move on. Housing pro- 
vided by the companies for these workers during the working season is much 
better than that of other migrants. Like the beet workers, some of whom 
supplement their beet earnings with wages from corn picking, the majority of 
these workers leave Minnesota each fall. 

General agriculture. — The mechanization of agriculture and the availability 
of resident unemployed workers has materially reduced the need for the migrant 
farm laborer in Minnesota. Yet because of the history of Minneapolis as a 
labor center for farm labor, thousands of single men still migrate to Minneapolis 
and thence northwest in search of work. Many of these men apply for and 
receive temporary care in Minneapolis and St. Paul. 

Seamen. — The port of Duluth with the possibility of shipping out on the 
Great Lakes annually attracts between 200 and 300 seamen. These men migrate 
to Minnesota before the ice breaks and hope to secure work on the boats during 
the summer or remain in the State when shipping closes in the fall. Sample 
studies conducted by the old State relief agency indicated that these are single 
persons and are generally residents of New York, Ohio, Michigan, or Wisconsin. 
IMany remain in Minnesota during the winter months hoping to secure work in 
the timber camps. 

This group presents a special employment problem in that seamen have a 
special employment skill. So far as assistance is concerned, here again the 
problem is one of temporary care pending the finding of private employment. 

A review of intake interviews with migrants indicates that the following 
factors, among others, are related to the causes of movement of these people 
from one State to another: 

(1) Search for employment in industrial centers and metropolitan areas; 

(2) Expectancy of receiving some form of aid from relatives or family until 
employment is obtained ; 

(3) Return to a State after loss of a fairly long period of employment else- 
where ; 

(4) A desire to secure more adequate medical care than is available in the 
place from whence the migrant has come. 

[The location of Mayo Clinic in Rochester, the Veterans' Hospital in Minne- 
apolis, the University Hospital in IMineapolis, Ancker Hospital in St. Paul, 
and the General Hospital in Minneapolis often result in the movement of 
some migrants to Minnesota who are in search of or desire medical care.j 

(5) Existence of a feeling that the Twin Cities are the "gateway" to the 
Northwest through which many families en route from the East and South will 
travel. 

Outstanding among the difflculties in the field of the migrant destitute citizen 
is. of course, the diversity of settlement laws as between various States. This 
diversity makes it possible for a family to lose settlement for the purposes of 
relief in one State, before gaining it in another. Thus, many of these people 
have no State upon which they can lay claim of legal residence for the purpose 
of obtaining assistance. 

A further analysis of intake interviews with nonresidents in Minnesota during 
the calendar year 19.39 indicates that the previous place of residence of the 
majority of these people was in the following States: Wisconsin, North Dakota, 
South Dakota, Illinois, Missouri, Montana, Iowa, Texas, Nebraska, and Arkansas. 



]^JQg INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

However, residents of 34 States were included in the group interviewed in 1930. 
Contact with migratory destitute persons in Minnesota during the past several 
years points to the importance of the following considerations : 

(1) Recognition should be given of the normal demand for migratory labor 
in certain industries. Most of these industries have a short labor season. 
Hence, so far as a substantial number of these migrants are concerned, they 
must face the problem of care and assistance before and after the seasonal 
employment and during the intervals between migration. 

(2) The problem of the migratory destitute citizens is interstate in character. 
As such, it cannot be solved by individual States. It would seem that this is a 
field iu which the Federal Government should assume some responsibility, per- 
haps by way of the grant-in-aid device. By this means, such aid should 
encourage uniformity in settlement laws, and improvement of procedures looking 
to more adequate schooling of children of migrant families and provision of 
certain minimums in health care. The objective should be to meet the needs 
of these people, to put the migratory labor market on a sounder basis, and to take 
off the load those individuals and families that have no place in the migratory 
labor field. 



STATEMENTS OF H. W. MORGENTHALER, ADMINISTRATIVE AS- 
SISTANT, STATE DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WELFARE; AND 
W. R. SULLINGER. FARM PLACEMENT SUPERVISOR FOR THE 
OHIO STATE EMPLOYMENT SERVICE, COLUMBUS, OHIO 

Mr. Parsons. The next witnesses will be Mr. Morgenthaler and Mr. 
Snllinger. 

Mr. Morgenthaler, will yon state yonr fnll name, address, and official 
position for the record? 

Mr. Morgenthaler. H. W. Morgenthaler. administrative assistant, 
State department of pnblic w^elfare, Colnmbus, Ohio. 

Mr. Parsons. Will you state yonr name, address and official position 
for the record, please, Mr. Snllinger? 

JNIr. SuLLiNGER. W, R. Snllinger, supervisor of farm placements, 
Columbus, Ohio. 

Mr. Parsons. Both of you gentlemen have submitted statements for 
the record which I have gone over rather hurriedly, but which the 
committee will go over in detail before the hearings are concluded. 
They are rather voluminous. 

(The statements referred to are as follows:) 

STATEMENT BY MEMBERS OF THE OHIO STATE TRANSIENT 

COMMITTEE 

(Presented by H. W. Morgenthaler, State Department of Public Welfare, 

Columbus, Ohio) 

Foreword 

Ohio, along with other sections of the United States, was developed by migrants 
or, as they were then called, pioneers. In those days opportunities for support 
were available and the few who were unable to get work for a temporary period, 
or were almost constantly on the move, were so few that they could get assistance 
from communities and individuals not already overloaded with local problems 
of dependency. Depressions in the past have been followed by periods of indus- 
trial expansion and the opening of new territories, or in other words, the advanc- 
ing of our industrial and physical frontiers, both of which provided additional 
opportunities for an excessive labor supply. During the last 10 years, economic 
and industrial conditions have cau.sed shrinking of job opportunities and have 
also caused a marked increase in the number of interstate migrants. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



1107 



Over the years there have devehiped in Ohio large industrial centers which 
ofCered excellent opportunities to both skilled and unskilled labor. At the present 
time, of the 88 Ohio counties 8 have a population of over 203,000 persons, with 
Cleveland and Cincinnati being the largest most highly developed centers. Need- 
less to say, large numbers of people have had to migrate into these areas to meet 
the demands of industry for additional men. The census figiires for the Cleveland 
metropolitan district illustrate this very clearly : 





Population 


By birth 
over death 


By excess 
migration 


192J 


943, 495 
1,201,455 






1930 








106, 293 
8, 293 




Total sain . 

1940 


257, 960 
1, 216, 529 


' 151,667 






Total gain 


15, 074 


3 6, 686 



1 15,000 per year. 

: 1083 3S fieures available only. 

s 1,335 per year. 

For the fii-st 6 months of 1940. Cuyahoga County reports an average of 11,092 
persons and families cared for as nonresidents ; 7.') percent of this number, or 
an average of 894 per month, were from other States. 

Cincinnati gives a similar report, which indicates that approximately 25,(X);) 
persons pass through this city every year. The actual figures for January 
through June (a total 6-month period) 1940. 11,577 people or family groups were 
cared for in Cincinnati. Of this total number, 9.995, or 87.2 percent, were- 
people from other States. 

As is well known, by those who have studied conditions over the past 10 years, 
job opportunities have failed to develop and the persons who have migrated into 
the cities and coniinunities in Ohio liave found it increasingly difl^icult to find 
a means of subsistence through their own efforts. However, iu recent months 
nonresident skilled mechanics have bei'ii quickly absorbed. 

The situation in Akron also illustrates a condition which is common in other 
industrial cities aiul which has decreased the possibility of absorbing interstate 
migrants. Residents of Akron in close touch with the industrial situation advise- 
that 20 years ago the rubber industry was just beginning to expand. There was 
such a shortage of housing facilities and such a need for more lodging quarters, 
that persons running rooming houses would rent the same bed for each of the 
three 8 hour periods. Additional beds were set up on porches when weather 
permitted in order to provide sleeping facilities tor the large infiux of migrants. 
At the present time, it is reported the rublier industry is producing the same 
quantity of goods as during the 1928-29 peak of production with many fewer 
men due to better production methods and better machinery. The effect of this 
trend is reflx'ted in the census figures, which show a decline in the population 
of Akron over the past 10-year period. Many persons were unable to go else- 
where and have remained as relief clients. Others have become interstate 
migrants and because of limited resources become stranded in other States. 

During 1939 the State department of welfare hanflled 2,040 letters from other 
States requesting various types of informatif>ii about former Ohio residents. 
Of this total, 800 were letters requesting verification of residence and authoriza- 
tion to return, which gives some idea of the number of Ohio people who are 
seeking opportunities elsewhere and as a result have become dependent in other 
States. 

Prioi" to the last decade, the vast majority of the people coming into Ohio 
from other States have been independent. Ohio's actual industrial growth and 
in some instances an exaggerated statement of labor needs on the part of 
employers have caused the largest influx. Ohio's agriculture is of a diversifi m1 
nature, with few of the seasonal croi^s requiring large numbers of people over a 
short period of time. We do have conditions in the onion marsh sections. ;ind 
in the sections of the State where sugar beets are grown, where certain type.s. 
of "stoop" labor is needed and where it has been customary for employers to- 
encourage migration of Kentuckians and Mexicans becausL^ in the onion fi 'Ids- 



1108 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



Kentuckians would work for a rate much lower than local labor, and in the 
sugar-beet fields Mexicans were adapted to "stoop" labor. 

Due to the slackening of industry over a prolonged period, Ohio has felt the 
Increased pressure of interstate migration during the past 10 years. These 
people have been a special burden on local communities because of the increased 
amount of dependence among Ohio residents due to unemployment over the 
same period It is also true that as far as farm labor is concerned, there has 
been a decrease in the number of men needed due to mechanization. Small 
combines corn pickers, and the use of tractors, even on the smaller (80 to 100 
acre) farms have made it possible to harvest crops without the use of extra 
farm hands 'through the summer and fall. Many of these farm hands used ni 
the past have been local men. 

These people are truly a people, not without a country, but many ot them are 

witl.'out a State. 

Types of Destitute Interstate Migrant 

As we have studied the problems in Ohio through the cooperation of the State 
transient committee and the S^ate welfare departnr.nt over the past 2 years, we 
have concluded that the destitute citizens who migrate into Ohio can be divide(/ 
into special types. Some of these types are the following : 

1 Tho.;e following or seeking seasonal work : 

(a) Sailors have presented a special problem due to tlie practices of the Great 
Lakes steamship companies. The shipping season lasts during the time the Lakes 
are ice-free. In tho fall boats tie up for the winter usually at the port where 
they happen to be when ice stops navigation. Recent regulations make it neces- 
sary for all sailors who wish steady jobs for the next season to make their appli- 
cation at the home office of the steamship company. Cleveland seems to be 
headquarters for most of the shipping lines operating on the Great Lakes. Sailors 
who happen to winter in Duluth, Chicago, or other lake ports must lind their 
way to Cleveland in order to secure a job for the next season. This makes it 
necessary for them to find their way to Cleveland and back to the port from 
which they are ordered to sail. Many of these men end the season with little 
if any resources left. They have expected better local assistance than other 
relief clionts and have caused a peculiar problem for the lake ports of Cleveland 

and Toledo. , _ , ^ i.^ ^ 

(h) Workers in the beet fields have been imported from lower Texas. Most 
of these people are Mexicans who. it is reported, are hired by the beet growers, 
transported from Texas to Ohio by truck witliout being permitted to leave the 
(ruck en route and returned in the fall. Whole families are brought in tempo- 
rary houses set up. and all members of the family able to work participate. 
Studies of these conditions have been made by the United States Children's Bureau 
and by the National Child Labor Committee, and detailed facts, we believe, would 
be available from either source. The Ohio employment service is developing the 
cooperaMon of employers in order to replace tlie Mexican laborers with local men 
capable of doing "stoop" labor. 

2. Another group of interstate destitute migrants which create considerable 
burden on local communities are those seeking medical care not available in 
their own communities. The large industrial centers in Ohio have, along with 
their industrial development, also developed a social consciousness which has 
caused them to develop fine health welfare, and recreational agencies financed 
by both public and private funds for assisting persons not able to meet their own 
needs in these fields. The efforts of the United States Public Health Service to 
impress upon the general public the necessity for adequate care for venereal 
diseases has caused a large number of persons, when they become aware of their 
need for treatment, to seek such treatment in Ohio cities where they are legally 
nonresidents. Many of these people are from other States. This is particularly 
true in Cincinnati and other border cities near States which do not have the 
same resource's which are available in Ohio. Others seek specialized medical 
services to meet in-ohlems they cannot meet locally. 

3. Those who find themselves out of work in their place of legal settlement in 
other States because of the mechanization of industry are also a large number 
of the people coming into Ohio as interstate migrants. Closing of mines due to 
mechanization, improvement of agricultural methods in the South, restriction of 
acreage und^r cultivation, and other factors of this type have caused this group 
of people to become interstate migrants. It is also true that employers have 
caused displaced people or excess laborers to move from their home communities 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1109 

by the distribution of handbills (in one instance by airplane in the Kentucky 
mountains), picturing employment needs to be in excess of the number of i)eople 
actually needed, has In-ousbt many more people from other States than plants 
could possibly absorb. Skilled laborers displaced elsewhere, who have come iu 
recently, expecting- war industry booms are not much of a problem since t^ey 
have been and still are quickly absorbed. 

4. Those who are moving because of the lack of or the small amount of relief 
which is given at the place of legal settlement constitute another group. We in 
Ohio understand the limited I'esources which some neighboring States have at 
their conmiand : however, we are also conscious of the fact that W. P. A. wage 
scales are lower in these States and that in some places relief is not given at all. 
There is every inducement for persons without income in such communities to 
start moving, many times because relatives in Ohio have written about — and 
sometimes exaggerated — their situation, which by comparison, even though 
meag^^r. is better than conditions at their place of residence wJien relief is not 
granted. The result is an influx of persons from other States who expect to be 
assigned to W. P. A., and in some cases have been accepted, or who are placed on 
temporary relief until settlement is verified and return authorized. The chief 
source of this migration is from the South. 

5. Those young people 18 to 21 years of age whose parents are citizens of other 
countries and who, following the last World War, returned to their homes in 
Europe. The parents have been sending these childhen to this country to escape 
war conscription. The problem of absorbing these intercounty migrants is equally 
ditticult with those from other States, due to lack of job opportunities and diffi- 
culty in arranging living conditions. 

6. Those who are brought to an industrial center to break strikes : These people 
are usually stranded after their assignment is finished, and many times are from 
other States. 

7. Those who are ''wanderers of the road" — the hobo : This group includes not 
only single persons but families who are habitual travelers. They constitute a 
small percentage of the total. They are present now, as they always have been, 
only now they are more conspicuous. Little can be done for this group, since they 
are not actually seeking employment, even temporary employment. 

Problems Cheated by Interstate Migeation of Destitute Citizens 

The above groupings indicate the type of interstate migrants which come to the 
attention of local relief agencies and the State welfare department in Ohio. The 
problems which are created in most communities because of these groups of inter- 
state migrants can be classified under the following headings: 

1. Medical problems, since in no community is there an oversupply of hospital 
beds or funds to care for charity cases. An influx of nonresidents almost imme- 
diately causes overcrowding. Communities have been unable to collect hospital 
bills from the place of legal residence. Many of these cases are tuberculosis or 
fracture cases. Venereal ca.ses are discovered regularly by the transient agencies 
in the cities where physical examinations by licensed doctors are routine for all 
transients given lodging. Once medical ti'eatment is started, the medical pro- 
fession is loathe to cooperate with local relief agencies in the return of non- 
residents to their place of legal residence if medical facilities for adequate 
follow-up are not available at the place of settlement. This is particularly true 
where tuberculosis cases have been treated in pneumothoracic clinics. The retiu'u 
of these individuals to the community in which they live, if treatment is not 
available, may be fatal. Instances come to the attention of the welfare depart- 
ment regularly from various communities where interstate m'grants become 
emergency medical cases and it is physically impossible to move them, thus caus- 
ing an extended period of expense for local health agencies when medical 
resources have already been drawn on to excess by needs of local indigents. 

2. The effect on children of interstate migrants cannot be overemphasized. 
Children who have no opportunity to live in normal homes grow up without 
having ideas of what normal home life is like. Frequent moving causes lack of 
continuity in their education, malnutrition, and an accumulation of abnormal 
influences which result in making these children less competent citizens of the 
future. 

3. Poor housing is without a question one of the worst results of interstate 
migration. Persons without resources are forced to crowd into the worst districts 
in cities. This is particularly true of the large number of southern Negroes who 



]^]^]^Q INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

migrate into tliis State. In many cities in Oliio we liave been faced witli limited 
liousing facilities for a considerable period. Tlie influx of nonresident people 
only accentuates the problem, making for worse physical and moral conditions. 
Disease is also increased thereby. 

4. The migration of feeble-minded, epileptic persons has created very definite 
problems. With institutions already crowded to capacity and many on the wait- 
ing list, comnumities find it extremely difficult to secure authorization to return 
such persons to their place of legal residence. In one instance over an 8-year 
period in a city in Ohio a mentally incompetent person who had been in a mental 
institution in another State was arrested for prostitution and all manner of petty 
crimes over this period. Attempts were made by various agencies over this same 
period to return this person to the State of legal settlement without results. 
Although these problems are not as great as some of the other gi'oups, yet they 
constitute a definite situation which creates a time-consuming and expensive prob- 
lem in each such instance and in many instances is the straw which breaks the 
camel's back. 

5. We have attempted in Ohio to determine whether or not interstate migrants 
were the cause of increased crime wave. Many communities house migrants 
in the .iails as a matter of "local protection." A study of 19,075 cases brought into 
a police court in Cincinnati showed only 763 were transients and of this number 
702 were broiight into court on very minor charges. This is the only tangible 
figure we have to throw any definite light on this phase of the problem, but we 
feel that this is a fair sample for the State and that there is very little relation- 
ship between migration and crime. 

Factors in Planning Stabiliz.vtion and Rehabilitation 

The return of persons to their place of legal settlement has b?come increasingly 
difficult for the past several years. Ohio has cooperated with other State welfare 
departments. Much has been accomplished through this cooperation and many 
families have been returned to communities where they can become a part of the 
community again. However, lack of resources, changes of personnel, and policies 
in State departments and other factors make it difficult to keep continuity in the 
agreements reached. Problems which have been brought to light in connection 
with this type of activity indicate why it is becoming more and more difficult to do 
constructive planning with interstate migrants in order to stabilize them. These 
problems classify themselves into several groups : 

1. Lack of uniform-settlement laws throughout the United States is the major 
problem. Many laws with "intent" sections could have constructive significance, 
however, as they are interpreted and used they seem clearly designed to quickly 
deprive persons of their legal residence once they leave the State. Others are so 
restrictive that once a person has been outside of the State for a period of time 
they find themselves disqualified even for relief until they have been able to 
maintain themselves independently within their home State for 2- to 3-year periods. 
It is obvious that persons destitute in oni^ State wher(> they are nonresidents would 
have no means of maintaining themselves in thi'ir State of legal settlement. In an 
attempt to meet this probleuL legislators in some instances have hurriedly passed 
what has turned out to bo distinctly discriminatory legislation and laws which in 
practice are retaliatory in nature. Such laws have tended to increase the move- 
ment of persons and to increase the problem from all angles rather than to make 
it possible for them to become stabilized once they begin to move from place to 
place. 

2. There is an increasing number of persons in the destitute interstate migrant 
group who have become what we term "United States residents." These are the 
l>eop]e who have moved from State to S'^ate in an attempt to find opportunities 
for support. They have failed to subsist on their own earnings long enough at 
any one point to gain settlement. They have also been, away from the State in 
which they last were legal residents so that under the laws of that State they are 
roiisidered to have lost settlement. These are the persons referred to earlier in 
this report as persons with a country but without a State. For instance, present 
poor relief legislation in Ohio provides that anyone who has been out of the 
State 4 years is ineligible to relief if he returns and becomes destitute before 
he has again maintained himself for a continuous 12-month period without assist- 
ance from an agency kee])ing records. In Illinois moving into another subdivision 
causes loss of settlement. Intent to move elsewhere causes loss of settlement 
in Missouri and West Virginia. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION ]^]^1] 

Many local ofl3cials try as best they can to cooperate in helping these persons 
plan to live where they can have the best opportunity for stabilization; however, 
because of lo:-al coninniiiity pressures to take care <if their own citizens most 
communities and local officials in Ohio encourage these people to move on rather 
than to assist them in stabilization. Our larger cities, however, where they have 
developed a finer sense of social consciousness, go to great lengths to assist these 
folks in every possible way. Most of the sailors referred to in an earlier page 
of this report also belong in this group. 

3. Many people, after they learn of the advantages in other sections of the 
country, even though they may be returned legally, refuse to go to their point of 
legal residence. It is also true that some conununities feel it is inhuman to 
forcibly return people because of lack of necessary iricdical care or other oppor- 
tunities at their point of legal settlement. There are some who feel that to insist 
upon return is also a violation of a person's civil liberties. 

Recommendations 

The Ohio State Transient <'ommittee and the State Department of Public Wel- 
fare join in making the following recommendations to the Tolan committee on 
points where we feel action would be most practical and effective : 

I. Since this is a national problem and since there is no trend toward uni- 
formity in State legislation regarding settlenient and interstate migration, we 
feel that national planning and legislation is needed to assist in bringing into 
uniformity the efforts of the various States in regard to interstate migration. 
We feel that Federal planning and legislation should include the following points: 

1. A standard of relief not less than the minimum relief needs for people in 
that region. We appreciate the fact that there would be wide variation even 
in Ohio between the southern hill coiuities and the large industrial cities as far 
as minimum relief standards would be concerned. 

2. A reasonable standard of medical care, and funds to provide such, which 
would provide for those migrants in need of medical assistance or treatment. 
This should be cocu'dinated with the United States Public Health Service in such 
a way that venereal disease and control could be linked up with this program. 

3. Employable migrants should be required to be continuously registered with 
the official State or United States employment service. 

4. A satisfactory arrangement whereby persons without legal settlement at the 
point where they become dependent can be assisted in locating at the point where 
they have the best possibilities of becoming stabilized and self-supporting. This 
part of the plan should carry provisions requiring States to have standard settle- 
ment requirements, also to be able to enter into reciprocal agreements with other 
States so that there can be mutual planning between the two States involved 
and the nonresident migrant, in order that the migrant may be assisted in locat- 
ing where he can best adjust in the long run. In case of differences of opinion 
between States, there should be the right of appeal to a Federal agency. 

At this point we wish to say that the Ohio Transient Committee feels that 
H. R, 2975 and 11. R. 2.)74 introduced in the Seventy-sixth Congress, first session, 
by Representative Jerry "S'oorhis of California, would cover the above points quite 
adequately with minor variations as necessary to fit conditions as they may 
change by the time the next Congress is in session. 

II. If States are to be granted Federal aid, it should be a requirement that 
State laws be revised so that there would be standard settlement requirements 
not only for general relief but for the various types of categorical assistance such 
as aid to dependent children, aid to the blind, and aid for the aged. 

These general requirements should be : 

1. That a person, once having gained legal settlement in one State, shall not lose 
it until he has gained settlement in another State. The State where .such settle- 
ment is held would be obliged to assist in neces.sary housing plans and financial 
aid when it was agreed between two States that the best plan was to return the 
per.son to his point of legal settlement. 

2. States should not require more than 1 year continuous residence \^'ithin the 
State to establish legal settlement. 

3. Acceptance of assistance from funds provided through Fedoral grants-in-aid 
should not be permitted to disqualify a migrant from acquiring a legal settlement. 

4. States should not be required to return persoiis requiring institutional care 
because of mental disea.se or other illness such as tuberculosis to their place of 

260370 — 40 — pt. 3 20 



2]^J2 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

legal settlement. The expense of such care should either be taken entirely from 
Federal funds or should be chargeable to the State of legal settlement. 

III. National planning should be carried out so that the sectional problem, such 
as the eventual depletion of coal deposits through mining operations, sections of 
the country where present agricultural conditions indicate no immediate future 
possibilities for absorbing the labor supply, and other predictable or precipitated 
conditions which affect a large group of people should be managed in such a way 
that the persons themselves are not required to blindly seek opportunities else- 
where through unplanned migration. This will be obviously necessary until the 
new frontiers can be developed. The fact that we realize that factories have been 
creating a surplus on the labor market due to improved production methods, and 
further that- even though the trend has been from the cities to the less centralized 
areas, yet we know that there is no appreciable need for the surplus labor market 
in the country any more than there is in the city. We feel it is obvious that some 
planning will have to take place which will take these various groups and condi- 
tions into consideration so that people do not wander aimlessly about searching 
for opportunities which we know will not be found. 

We are quite conscious of the fact that preparedness for national defense may 
absorb many men while the boom period which results will last. This will, if it 
reaches proportions where middle-aged displaced workers will be absorbed, 
decrease the need for migration in search of work and of course decrease inter- 
state migration. We strongly recommend that optimism in this direction should 
not be allowed to delay action on the problem until there is some tangible result 
from employment pick-up. Technological unemployment and other factors, such 
as southern agricultural trends, the Dust Bowl, productivity of new lands due to 
dams in the Northwest, etc., indicate the need for continued planning in regard to 
interstate migration looking toward the next "depression" which may then be 
delayed or at least partially avoided. 

Some care for persons who become dependent should be provided in the home 
community, if work opportunities are not available so as to remove the necessity 
for moving elsewhere to secure relief. A modification of the Works Program or 
Federal supplementing of local resources may be necessary to make this program 
possible in all States and communities in the United States. We urge action 
which will bring financial assistance to States for the temporary care neces.sary in 
connection with planning and rehabilitation of interstate nonresidents until such 
time at least when employment service machinery is available to assist people in 
planned migration. 

Perhaps new frontiers will be developed ; in the meantime we feel it is neces- 
sary to face the fact that since our frontiers are practically gone, we need to make 
an adjustment and provide the resources to meet the new situation which we have 
only partially come to understand through the events of the last decade. The rec- 
ommendations of the State transient committee, as stated above, we feel, would 
assist in reaching that goal. 

Rest assured of our willingness to cooperate with your committee and with 
other States in reaching a practical sensible plan which will assist us in moving in 
the right direction. 

Re.spectfully submitted by 

The Ohio State Transient Committee : H. W. Morgenthaler, chairman, 
administi'ative assistant, legal settlement. State welfare depart- 
ment ; Belle Greve, vice chairman, director, Cuyahoga County Re- 
lief Administration; Mr. Mason Benner, director, Montgomery 
County Relief Administration, Dayton ; Miss Cora M. Floyd, gen- 
eral secretary, social service union. Steubenville : Mrs. Geraldine 
Gifford, secretary, American Red Cross, Lorain : Mr. .1. A. Green, 
executive secretary, Negro Y. M. C. A., Dayton ; Mrs. Frances W. 
Hawes. Travelers Aid Society. Cleveland ; Brigadier Samson 
Hodges, the Salvation Army, Columbus ; Mr. Gordon Jeffrey, 
director, public welfare department, Toledo ; Mr. W. L. Mulhearn, 
director. Summit County Relief Administration, Akron ; Miss Grace 
O'Domiel), transient committee. Canton ; Mr. D. E. Proctor, chair- 
man, transient comittee, Columbus ; Mr. J. H. Stein, superviser, 
shelter-care division. Department of Public Relief. Cincinnati ; 
Mrs. Jean C. Williams, director, city relief administration, 
Portsmouth. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1113 

Appendix 

OUTLINE 

Case stories and statistical tables illustrating pi-oblems in regard to destitute 
interstate migrants : 

1. Syphilis clinic case from Georgia. 

2. Syphilis case illustrating combined effect of Arkansas law and United States 

Public Health Service emphasis on treatment. 

3. Syphilitic nonresident from Alabama. 

4. Tuberculosis case from Kentucky. 

5. Annual Report — 1939 — Cincinnati shelter care division on nonresident cases 

receiving clinical medical care and break-down by type of treatment needed. 

6. Cleveland case illustrating problems created by loss of settlement. 

7. Cincinnati case illustrating interstate Kentucky problem of feeble-mindt d per- 

son who needs institutionalization. 

8. Feeble-minded "United States resident" type now in Cleveland. 

0. Example of way people with low-grade mentality are shunted from place to 
place when they become nonresidents (Cincinnati). 

10. Case illustrating difficulty in securing verification of settlement and neglect of 

children on the road. 

11. Cincinnati case illustrating "United States resident" type. 

12. Cincinnati reports facts on nonresident minor with tuberculosis (Kentucky). 

13. Ca.se illustrating irresponsibility of some local officials (Indiana). 

14. Case illustrating why better standardized controls are needed for handling 

cases of nonresident migrants. 

15. Letter illustrating how loss of settlement presents possibility of planning with 

a family to assist them in locating at most logical place (New York). 

16. Total for month-transients and local homeless, key Ohio points — October 1£3S. 

17. Total for month-transients and local homeless, key Ohio points — November 

1938. 

18. Total for month-transients and local homeless, key Ohio points — December 

1938. 

19. Head count-transients and local homeless, key Ohio points — July 29, 1938. 

20. Head count-transients and local homeless, key Ohio points — July 28, 1939. 

21. Head count-transients and local homeless, key Ohio point.s — October 31. 1939. 

22. Head count-transients and local homeless, key Ohio points — May 20, 1940. 

23. Seasonal and weekly report on applications accepted and rejected by Cin- 

cinnati agency for 1939-40. 

24. Cuyahoga County (Cleveland) Relief Bureau. Number of transients receiv- 

ing lodging in special dormitory for boys and young men during first month 
of each quarter by each year age 7 to 25, July 1939 to April 1940. 

25. Cuyahoga County (Cleveland) Relief Bureau. ]Major service by months 

nonresident case load, white-colored, families — single, July 1939 through 
June 1940. 

26. Cuyahoga ('ounty (Cleveland) Relief Bureau. Nonresident case load, by 

months, July 1939 through a. June 1940; &. number of sailors receiving 
care as nonresidents, by months, April 1939 through June 1940. 

SYPHILIS CIJNIC CASE FROM GEORGIA 

Mrs. A. is under treatment in Cleveland Syphilis Clinic for syphilis early un- 
clas.'iified with pregnancy. She received irregular treatment from August until 
October 1939, prior to the delivery of her child at city hospital on October 15, 
1939. Following the delivery of the child, many follow-up efforts were unsuc- 
cessful in having either Mrs. A. or the child return to clinic for examination and 
further treatment. The case was, therefore, referred to the Cleveland division 
of health, which was effective in having Mrs. A. return to the clinic on February 
6, 1940. with the assistance of a sanitary officer. Under pressure, also Mrs. A. 
took the child Betty Jean to our pediatric.s clinic for examination. Physical 
examination and .serology were negative for evidence of congenital syphilis in 
the child. 

Clarence, whom Mrs. A. named as the father of her child and potential source 
of the .syphilitic infection, was examined on three occasions at the division of 
health and was found not to have syphilis. 



;[][14 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Mrs. A. is 20 years old, a legal minor, and therefore has legal residence in 
Atlanta, Ga., where her parents are now living. She refuses to return to Atlanta, 
Ga., and neither the Travelers Aid Soeiety, the connty relief hnreau, nor the 
division of health have any anthcnlty to ohlige her to return to Atlanta. Mrs. A. 
has an I. Q. of 61, l)ut this is not low enough to require institutionalization in 
a feeble-minded institution. Therefore, the probate court cannot assist us to 
have Mrs. A. return to Georgia. 

No social agency in this community will give financial or other assistance to 
Mrs. A., and the Cleveland Syphilis Clinic is giving free medical care. Mrs. A. 
has little inclination or al)ility or opportunity to work at the present time. She 
i> living with her sister at the given address. Her sister is being supported by 
aid to dependent children in this community and she is not permitted to assist 
Mrs. A. out of the pension which she receives from this agency. Aid to dependent 
children has found Mrs. A. in the home of her sister before and has required her 
to move. When they discover that she has returned to live with her sister, ]\Irs. 
A. will be asked to live elsev.'here again. ]\Irs. A.'s only source of support at 
the present time is irregular income from Clarence, who makes such voluntary 
contributions to the support of Mrs. A. and her child as he sees fit. 

When Mrs. A. first came to Cleveland she was assisted temporarily by the 
Travelers Aid Society while they made a sf)cial investigation. They offered 
their services, the services of an attorney, and of the juvenile court in an effort 
to have paternity .established and Clarence made legally responsible for the 
support of Mrs. A.'s child. Mrs. A. was unwilling to go to court, and preferred 
to depend on such voluntary contributions as Clarence is willing to give her. 
It is doubtful that Travelers Aid Society would again offer this assistance since 
Mrs. A. refused it the first time, since she has stayed in this community against 
advice, and since she has refused paid transportation to Georgia. 

We are therefore faced with the problem of providing free medical care for 
Mrs. A. for a minimum of 40 treatments (she has had 27 treatments to date) 
according to the United States Public Health Service stipulations for infectious 
cases. Mrs. A. has been most irregular in her clinic attendance, even after 
the discussion at the division of health when she was instructed to take treat- 
ment without fail. We have been unable to secure subsistent relief (food, 
clothing, and shelter) for Mrs. A and the baby or regular carfare for her weekly 
visits from any source in this community. It is therefore impossible for us to 
make an adequate social plan for this patient to enable her to take weekly 
treatments even if she had the wish to do so. 

When Mrs. A. will have res'ded in this community for 1 year after she is 21 
years of age, she will have lost her residence in Atlanta, Ga., and will have 
become a permanent charge on this community. At the present time there is 
no authority in this community to oblige Mrs. A. to return to Atlanta, Ga., 
while she still has legal residence there. 

CLEVELAND SYPHILIS CASE ILLUSTKATING COMBINED EFFECT OF ARKANSAS LAW AND 
UNITED STATES PtTiiLIC HEALTH SERVICE EMPHASIS ON TREATMENT 

General B. was quarantined in a Cleveland hospital on May 24, 1940, for 
treatment of syphilis pi'imary of the tonsils. He was discharged from the 
hdspital on June 4, 1940. to return to the dermatology clinic for semi weekly 
ireatments until he has had 3' I treatments and weekly treatments thereafter, 
according to the doctor's reconunendations. Mrs. B. has been examined in the 
dermatology clinic as the contact of an early infectious case of syphilis. It is 
as yet undetermined whether she is developing an early acquired syphilis from 
her" husband or has old latent syphilis. In any case, she will require treatment 
in the dermatologv clinic over an extended period of time (70 to 80 treatments). 

Mr and Mrs. b" are not legal residents of Cuyahoga County. They first came 
to Cleveland in D 'cember 1038, but Mr. B. has not had residence in Cleveland 
for 12 consecutive months at any time. The family is very vague about their 
source of income since being in Cleveland. Mr. B. states that he has had odd 
jobs averaging .$2 or .$3 a week and Mrs. B. has worked as a janitress irregularly 
"earning $.5 a week. Neither Mr. nor Mrs. B. has given their past places of 
employment or specific statements regarding their earnings. 

Mr." B. initiated an application at the county relief bureau for financial as- 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1115 

sistance but is at the present time reluctant to complete it. This family in all 
probability are legal residents of the State of Arkansas. In order to effect 
their return to Arkansas, the family nuist state their willingness to return. 
The State of Arkansas will not authorize the return of any legal resident unless 
a statement of the family's willingness to return has been secured. The county 
relief bureau cannot, therefore, give even temi)orary relief while making an 
investigation, and this family cannot, therefore, secure financial assistance for 
food, clothing, and shelter in the city of Cleveland from the county relief bureau 
or any other agency. 

Mr. and Mrs. B. live at the given address with seven of Mrs. B.'s relatives. 
The relatives have also in the past made application to county relief bureau 
but have stated their unwillingness to be returned to Arkansas. There is, 
therefore, no authority in the community at the present time to have any of 
these persons returned to their place of legal residence nor can the county 
relief bureau furnish temporary financial assistance to any of them under their 
agency restrictions. 

Mr. and Mrs. B. state that they will be able to manage, since they are both 
hopeful of securing employment, but neither has any definite employment at 
the present time. Mr. B. has infectious .syphilis and is required to have a mini- 
mum of 40 treatments under the public health regulations of this community and 
of the United States Public Health Service. Mrs. B. may also have infectious 
.sypliilis or at least will be in need of long-time continuous medical care. We 
are unable to secure subsistent relief for this family in this comnmnity from 
any agency. The family are, therefore, in the position of having to maintain 
them.selves and regular clinic attendance, which experience has shown us will 
probably be very ditficult. In addition, it is unlikely that the family earnings 
will be sufficient to cover the cost of food, clothing, and shelter and the additional 
required medical care. 

S^T>HILITIC NONRESIDENT FROM ALABAMA 

Mrs. J. M. has been xinder treatment in Cleveland Syphilis Clinic for syphilis 
latent with pregnancy. Child delivered December 12, 1938, and the baby boy, 
delivered IMarch 5. 1940, have both been examined and show no evidence of pre- 
natal syphilis. Mrs. M. will have completed treatment after 8 more weeks and 
will be placed on periodical examination imless she again becomes pregnant. 

This family has required much follow-up during the last 2 years since, with 
each pregnancy, Mrs. M. has l)ecome an urgent case and is subject to the division 
of health regulations regarding all infectious cases. 

This family has legal residence in Tuskegee, Ala. The family has refused to 
return to Alabama, stating that Mr. M. cannot secure work there. The county 
relief bureau is in the position of having to deny relief to this family, since they 
could be provided for in their own community if they would return there. Mr. 
M. has been employed intermittently as a laborer on W. P. A., earning from $52 
to $56 a month. This income is inadequate, but the county relief bureau could 
not supplement because of the settlement status. This position was held in spite 
of the urgency of medical care for Mrs. M. during her pregnancy. Because of 
the inadequate income Mrs. I\I. has never been able to secure carfare to attend 
clinic regularly as was advised. 

TUBERCULOSIS CASE FROM KENTUCKY 

This family came to northern Kentucky, sold their house truck for junk at 
the Ohio border, and proceeded to Cincinnati in search of hospital care for the 
ailing tuberculosis wife. Ten days later, having exhausted their means and the 
wife's condition more acute, the woman was taken to the Cincinnati General 
Hospital and the man and child applied to transient shelter for relief. Five 
months later the child was diagno.sed as tubercular with positive sputum. No 
relatives could be found who were the least bit interested in the family, neither 
could legal residence be verified in any of the number of places that the family 
had lived. For a number of years the McC's had kept on the road in an effort 
to market the willow furniture that Mr. McC made. Materials for the making 
of this furniture were gathered along the various waterways. 



1116 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



ANNUAL REPORT, 19 09, CINCINNATI SHELTER CARE DIVISION ON NONRESIDENT CASES 
RECEIVING CLINICAL MEDICAL CARE AND BREAK-DOWN BY TYPE OF TREATMENT 
NEEDED 

City of Cincinnati 
The clinic serviced : 

Local Clients 26, 137 

Transient clients 16, 023 

Total 42,160 

Mt. Airy serviced 6,598 

Medical ministrations provided by the nurses in the infirmary outside of 

clinic hours 790 

Total 7,388 

49, 548 

A further break-down shows — 

Inspections in clinic among local clients 19,474 

Inspections in clinic among transients 11,436 

Inspections at Mt. Airy center 5, 305 

Total 36,215 

Medical and surgical care provided 13, 333 

Total 49,548 

Broken down as follows : 

Medical treatments in clinic 8, 299 

Medical treatments in infirmary (not in-patients) 557 

Medical treatments in Mt. Airy 1, 234 

Surgical treatments in clinic 2, 951 

Surgical treatments in infirmary (not in-patients) 233 

Surgical treatments in Mt. Airy 59 

13,333 

Patients receiving treatment in the infirmary for a total of 5,396 days of 

treatment : 411 

Patients, 14 of whom were nonresidents, sent to the General Hospital 49 

Clients, who had sustained minor accidents in the building, treated by the 

staff doctors on duty 20 

Cases of tuberculosis observed and disposed of as previously recorded 57 

A total of 2,631 cases of infectious diseases observed, treated, and isolated. 
broken down as follows : 





Com- 
bined 


Locals 


Tran- 
sients 


Gonorrhea . . . _. 




395 
66 
9 
6 
3 
2 
199 
75 


501 


Syphilis 




45 


Penile lesions. _. . . .. .. _ .- 




18 


Lvmphc granuloma inguinale .__ _ . _ -- ._. 




20 


Venereal warts.. 




10 


Chancroid. . . .. 




T 


Pediculosis 




926 


Scabies . . . . . 




278- 


Scarlet fever 


2 
69 




Miscellaneous . ..... 












Total 


71 


755 


1,805 







Locals 

TransientS- 
Combined- 



755 

1,805 

71 



Total 2,631 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1117 

CLEVELAND CASE IIXUSTRATING PROBLEMS CREATED BY LOSS OF SETTLEMENT 

111 many instances we find coiumunitios unwilling to authorize the return of 
families, although evidently they have the right to legal settlement there. The 
following situation is illustrative of this. 

Carl O., 34, wife, and three children became ensnared by settlement laws several 
years ago and has not succeedeil yet in extricating himself. Shortly after he was 
married, 10 years ago, he moved, as he had been accustomed to doing when he 
was single, to any city which seemed to offer employment possibilities. He had 
difficulty in finding the job he was seeking and he moved from place to place — 
to Kansas City, St. Louis, Indianapolis, Chicago, and finally to Cleveland. How- 
ever, he was never in one place long enough to establish settlement. Frequently 
he had to apply for I'elief when his jobs did not last very long. His nonresident 
status did not make for comfortable relief contracts — he had no legal settlement. 
Several places made futile attempts to verify settlement and send him back, and 
some stopped relief to force him to move on. 

Mr. O. has no specific training vocationally but has generally done clerical 
work. He has had some unfortunate work experiences and he feels failures 
keenly. His plight has frequently been desperate, both in Cleveland and else- 
where. He has been given some security here but not enough, apparently, to keep 
him from a suicide attempt last winter. At other times the impulse to move on, 
to find the kind of life he feels is necessary, has been irresistible. This family has 
had considerable direct relief and medical aid at the expense of this community. 
He has no legal settlement. 

CINCINNATI CASE ILLUSTRATING INTERSTATE (KENTUCKY) PROBLEM OF FEEBLE-MINDED 
PEKSONS WHO NEED INSTITUTIONALIZATION 

Miss C, aged 35, was probated to the Kentucky Institution for the Feeble-minded 
in 1932 by the court of F. County. Because of overcrowded conditions in this 
institution she never entered. She has drifted in and out of Cincinnati since 1932 
and has invariably been arrested on a charge of prostitution after a short time 
in this city. Since 1932 there have been 42 convictions by the court in Hamilton 
County on this charge. The last two convictions each resulted in a year's sentence 
to the workhouse. She has been diagnosed as mentally deficient with a mental 
age of 7 years and 8 months. There is also a diagnosis of central nervous system 
lues, latent but progressive. Miss C's most recent sojourn in the workhouse is 
drawing to a close. Correspondence has been carried on with F. County by the 
transient-.service bureau in an effort to return Miss C so that institutionalization 
can be provided. At this point F. County is denying responsibility for Miss C. 
This woman is clearly an institutional case. Because she has never gained 
settlement in Ohio for the purposes of relief, she cannot be placed in an institution 
here. Although she served a year's sentence in the workhouse on two occasions, 
she could not obtain settlement under Ohio law. 

FEEBLE-5IINDED '"UNITED STATES RESIDENT" TYPE NOW IN CLEVELAND 

O., Lillie. white, separated, 28 years old. She is feeble-minded, epileptic, and 
alcoholic. Lillie originates from Rutherforton. N. C. Investigation reveals that 
her family was unable to cope with the problem which she presented. 

At a very early age Lillie began wandering about the country. She married in 
South Carolina in 1931. Husband's settlement not known because he deserted soon 
after the marriage. It appears that she continued her wandering. Since 1937 
she has been known to welfare agencies in Abington, Va. ; Detroit, Mich. ; Atlanta, 
Ga. ; Louisville, Ky. ; Erie, Pa.; and Cleveland, Ohio. She was probated in 
Detroit and Erie and placed in a State institution. This action was taken be- 
caui^e of the problem that Lillie presented to the community, although her non- 
resident status was recognized in both communities. She escaped from both 
institutions. 

North Carolina refuses to consider Lillie their responsibility, although they 
recognize that she has never been able to provide for herself. Inasmuch as Lillie 
has never been adjudicated a feeble-minded or epileptic person in North Carolina 
(presumably the only State that Lillie remained in for any length of time) our 
State department as well as the State departments of Michigan and Pennsylvania 
could not take action to force North Carolina to. recognize their responsibility, 
and the community where Lillie became stranded was exjiected to pi'ovide care 
for her indefinitely. 



1118 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

EXAMPLE OF WAY PEOPI.H WITH LOW-GRADE MENTALITY ARE SHUNTED FROM PLACE TO 
PLACE WHEN THEY BECOME NONRESIDENTS (CINCINNATI) 

Both Mr. and Mrs. C. are persons of limited mentality who have been wander- 
ing from place to place in an effort to find some relative whom they thought 
would take them in. A police official in a small Kentucky town is said to have 
given them train fare to Cincinnati to live with an uncle (whom Mrs. C. hadn't 
seen in 15 years). Upon arrival here relatives refused to see the family. Two 
weeks prior to coming to Cincinnati, they had been in Indiana with a cousin. 
The cousin couldn't keep them, so they started wandering again. No sooner than 
they had left the cousin's home, they stopped for the night on the front porch of 
a canning factory where the woman gave birth to a child. The township officials 
of that community sent the family by truck to another relative, approximately a 
hundi-ed miles away in Kentucky. 

Their first baby is dead. Burial was made by the mother and father "under a 
rock somewhere." They couldn't remember the name of the place. 

The baby was taken ill, but the mother refused to allow her to be hospitalized. 
When last seen they had their knapsacks and were trudging down the road pre- 
sumably to try to find another relative in Indiana to whom they had referred 
on several occasions. 

The facts in this case are veriflod by correspondence with the State Department 
of Indiana and the local trustees. Correspondence with R., Kentucky, has re- 
sulted in the statement by the judge of that county that the C.'s have no legal 
residence there because they have been away from that community 3 years. 
This family, of two adults and eight children, is not eligible for assistance in 
this or any other community, apparently. 

CASE ILLUSTRATING DIFFICULTY IN SECURING VERIFICATION OF SETTLEMENT AND 
NEGIECT OF CHILDREN ON THE ROAD (KENTUCKY) 

Mrs. McK applied for public assistance in Cincinnati as a resident, giving false 
information. Her nonresidenee was soon learned and the case was referred to 
Transient Service Bureau. Subsequent correspondence brought out the follow- 
ing information : Mrs. McK had deserted her husband in C, Ky. She came to 
Cincinnati with another man and brought her four children with her. The man 
soon deserted and then she applied for relief. The county judge in C, Ky., would 
not answer letters. A reply was finally obtained from the Work I*rojects Ad- 
ministration certifying authority to the effect that the judge had been contacted 
and that he refused to authorize Mrs. McK's and the children's retvu'ii because 
"she forfeited her right to legal settlement when she deserted her husband." Mrs. 
McK is not capal)le of rearing her children. However, no phuis can be made here 
for these children because of their nonresidenee. 

There are numerous similar instances in which individuals nmst be returned 
to their place of settlement even though we know they will not receive care be- 
cause of the inadequac.v of relief fmids and medical resources. This situation 
holds true for other counties in Ohio as well as in other States. We quote below 
excerpts from two letters, one received from W County, Ohio, and the other from 
B County, Ohio. The first letter is an authorization to return a family to W 
County. "We again authorize the return of the R family, but, as stated in our 
previous authorization, they must make their own housing arrangements." The 
second letter, received from B County regarding a similar case, reads as follows: 
"You are authorized to return this family to B County, but we are unable to make 
any provision for shelter. If they are returned and apply for relief here, we will 
consider them for such small relief as we have available." 

CINCINNATI CASE ILLUSTRATING "UNITED STATES RESIDENT" TYPE 

Mr. D was born in Cincinnati. He spent about 3 years in Indiana from 19S3 
until 1936. After his return to Cincinnati he received assistance from a private 
agency within the first year. The family has needed assistance periodically since 
that time. Because of the desperateness of their situation here and the fact that 
they had no place to which to retiu'u in Indiana, assistance has been given by a 
private agency. This family is ineligible for public assistance here and ttte State 
of Indiana claims that they have no residence there. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1119 

CINCINNATI KEPORTS FACTS ON NONRESIDENT MINOR WITH TUBERCUT.OSIS (KENTUCKY) 

This boy is a minor whose father lives in P County, Ky. When he applied for 
assistance at the Transient Service Bureau he was suffering from far advanced 
tuberculosis. lie said that he liad recently been discharged from a tuberculosis 
hospital in Kentucky. Numerous letters and wires to the P county judge have 
remained unanswered. The boy was not eligible for hospital care in this com- 
munity. A wire was finally sent to the P county judge advising him that the 
boy was being returned unless some word was received. Within a few days, 
transportation \\as provided and the boy returned to P county. 

CASE ILLUSTRATING IRRESPONSIBILITY OF SOME LOCAL OFFICIALS (INDIANA) 

Mrs. M who was a resident of F, Ind., was sent to Cincinnati by relief authori- 
ties of F in May 1939. as proved by the authorities of F. 

We were told that if Mrs. M returned to F charges would be tiled against her, 
although the administrator of the State Welfare D:^partment of Indiana author- 
ized us to return her on June 2, 1939. In his letter he states: '"The authorized 
return is made on a legal basis, although from a social viewpoint adjustment for 
Mrs. M out of Indiana would seem to be advisable because of the attitude of the 
local trustees." 

CASE ILLUSTRATING WHY' BETiER STANDARDIZED CONTROLS ARE NEEDED FOR HANDLING 
CASES OF NONRESIDENT MIGRANTS 

The T's ajjplied to the Transient Service Bureau in Cincinnati for assistance. 
Efforts to establish their place of legal settlement brought out the fact that they 
originally came from R, Ky.. going from there to I, Ind. Efforts on the yiart 
of til." local trustees in I. Ind., to return the T's to Kentucky were fruitless. 
Finally a trial by jury was held and it was decided that the family was undesir- 
able and would have to leave. The trustees provided transportation for the T's 
to Cincinnati, where Mr. T thought he might get a job. 

LETTER ILLUSTRATING HOW LOSS OF SETTLEMENT PRESENTS POSSIBILITY OF PLANNING 
WITH A FAMILY' TO ASSIST THEM IN LOCATING AT MOST LOGICAL PLACE (NEW 
YORK ) 

Re: John D. Children, Marcia Ann (11 months) Jackie (3 years). Our 
#990829. 

S. W. J., 

Jui^enUe Judge, Juvenile Court, 

County of T., W. , Ohio. 

Dear Judge J. : This is in reply to your letter of May 18, 1940, regarding the 
above family. As a result of our contacts in this case, we find that Mr. D. 
has lost his settlement in New York by being out of this State for more than 
1 year. 

We interviewed his mother, Mrs. Frances D., residing at 127-18 Ninty-fiflh 
Avenue, R. H. Oueens. She informed us that he left New York in January 1939 
to take up resience in L, N. J. He also resided in the city of E and the town 
of E, N. H. She maintained that she had not heard from him since August 1939, 
at which time he resided in E. N. J. 

We questioned I\Irs. D as to her ability to assist her son. She stated thai 
she was unable to offer her son a home because her resources are limited. Her 
husband died sevei'al years ago. Two sons, aged 26 and IS, are the wage earners. 
They are employed for the General Electric Co. but IMrs. I) maintains their 
income is small. The eldest son contemplates marriage in the very near future 
so that his contributions toward the home are small. The household also in- 
cludes a daughter of lo years, who attends school. 

We also spoke to the eldest son but he sulistantiated his motiier's stat(>ments 
and he stated that he was luiable to assist his brother. There appears to be 
no other relatives in a position to assist. 

In.asmuch as your applicant's relatives in New York cannot offer him a home 
and he has lost settlement in New York by being out of the State for more 
than 1 year, we cannot authorize his return. 

If we can be of further assistance to you, we shall be glad to cooperate. 
Very truly yours, 

W. H., CommiHfiioner. 
C. R., Case Supervisor. 



1120 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



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INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



1121 



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325 

2,564 

1,209 

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138 

833 

326 

2,636 

1,209 

816 
800 

512 


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429 

281 

323 

17, 981 

22, 793 

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1,167 

552 

649 

57,010 

74, 610 

7,430 
1,228 

814 

95 

3,543 

3,576 

1,223 

659 


to 


Akron (13) 

Cambridge, Salvation Army (3) 

Chillicothe, Salvation Army (7) 

Cincinnati, Transient Service Bureau (1) 

Cleveland, Cuyahoga County Relief Bureau (2) - 
Columbus, Volunteers of America, Salvation 

Army, Jewish Welfare Federation (4) 

Dayton, Salvation Army (5) 

Newark: 

Salvation Army (6) 


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1122 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



(4) 

Number of individuals in families reported 
in item (3) 


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a 


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5 




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(3) 

Num- 
ber 
of 
Tran- 
sient 
Fam- 
ilies 




00 


(2) 

Number of unattached local homeless 
individuals 


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(1) 

Number of unattached (single) transient 
individuals 


a 


1 „ 

5 










& 1 i i 
1 « 1 i i 








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12 m 

11 p. m.. 
11:45 p.m. 

12m^._. 
11:45p.m. 




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03 

a 

5 




Akron. Division of Public 

Charitie'^. 
Cleveland: 

Salvation Army 


Columbus, Volunteers of 
America. 

Dayton, Salvation Army 

Portsmouth, Relief Depart- 
ment. 
Toledo: 

City division of Homeless. 

Relief Administration 

Cincinnati, all agencies 




2 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



1123 





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Sti'iibenville, Social Service 

Union. 
Youngstown, The-Housc-by- 

thu-Sidc-of-the-Road. 


3 
o 



1124 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



s 


Number of individuals in families 
reported in item (2) 


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INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



1125 



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1 ^ 




Akron, Summit County 
Relief .\rea. 

Cambridge, Salvation Army. 

Canton, Travelers Aid So- 
ciety. 

Cincinn.iti, All Agencies 

Clevelan, Cuyahoga Coun-.. 


gg .0.25 
at, a'^ 

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1126 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



Shelter care division {Cincinnati), record and rcDorts department— Accepted 

and rejected cases ^ 





State transient ' 


Nonresident transient ^ 


Local homeless 




July 
1935 

253 
5 
11 
2 


Octo- 
ber 
1939 

244 

>.) 
11 

1 


Jan- 
uary 
1940 

170 
22 
11 
11 


April 
1940 

316 
4 
8 
3 


July 
1939 

1,799 
35 
110 
Zi 


Octo- 
ber 
1939 

1,413 
47 
55 
11 


Jan- 
uary 
1940 


April 
1940 


July 
1939 


Octo- 
ber 
1939 


Jan- 
uary 
1940 


April 
1940 




804 
67 
30 
22 


1,989 

42 

49 

9 


226 


370 


316 




Seasonal report- 

Single intake cases 


178 


Family intake cases_-. 
Single rejected cases . _ . 


148 


212 


171 


131 


Family rejected cases. 












271 


265 


214 


331 


1,967 


1.526 


923 


2,089 


374 


582 


487 


309 








July 
15-21, 
1939 


Oct. 

14-21), 
1939 


Jan. 

14-20, 
1940 


Apr. 
14-20, 
1940 


Julv 
15-21, 
1939 


Oct. 
14-20, 
1939 


Jan. 
14-20, 
1940 


Apr. 
14-20, 
1940 


July 
15-21, 
1939 


Oct. 
14-20, 
1939 


Jan. 
14-20, 
1940 


Apr. 
14-20, 
1940 


Weekly report: 

Single intake cases 


65 
2 
5 



34 

5 

1 
1 


38 
10 
3 
5 


70 
1 


406 

3 

33 

3 


301 

8 
17 
1 


184 
16 
12 
5 


455 
10 
10 


54 


71 


57 


38 


Family intake cases- . 
Single rejected cases. _ 


55 


45 


13 


25 


Family rejected cases . 














72 


41 


56 


72 


445 


327 


217 


475 


109 


116 


70 


63 













. This is an intake report only, and does not include cases assigned that are carried from month to month. 
' From other counties in Ohio. 
3 Interstate migrants. 

Cuvahoaa County Relief Bureau— Nnmier of transients receiving lodginf/ in 
spS dormitory for hoys and young men during first month of each quarter, 
hy age, July 1939 to April 1940 



Age 



9...- 
10..- 
11... 
12... 
13... 
14-. 
15... 
16... 
17.-- 
18... 
19... 
20.. 
21... 
22.- 
23-. 
24-- 
25-. 



Total. 



July 1939 



3 

6 
24 
105 
74 
95 
96 
67 
78 
57 



606 



October 
1939 



508 



January 
1940 



April 
1940 



83 
68 
63 

580 



Juveniles under 17 years, traveling alone, are sent to juvenile court, 
with father, they are lodged in the shelter. 



When 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



1127 



Major service, nonresident case load, ivhite and colored, families and single, 
Cuyahoga Cminty Relief Bureau, July 1939 to June 19^/0 





Total 


Year and month 


C 


ases 




Persons represented 




Total 


White 


Colored 


Total 


White 


Colored 


1939: 

July -- 


695 
714 
721 
646 
589 
534 

517 
514 
513 
494 
475 
489 


307 
319 
328 
329 
291 
266 

236 
232 
257 
220 
221 
235 


3S8 
395 
393 
317 
298 
268 

281 
282 
256 
274 
254 
254 


2,071 
2, 159 
2,204 
1,800 
1,636 
1,548 

1,454 
1,494 
1,507 
1,450 
1,397 
1,433 


(') 


(') 






























1940: 














































Famil 


y cases 


Single cases 


Year and month 


Cases 


Persons represented 






Total 

401 
423 
427 
371 
331 
300 

301 
302 
296 
289 
279 
284 


White 


Colored 


Total 


White 


Colored 


Total 


White 


Col-' 
ored 


1939: 

July 


171 
177 
186 
181 
154 
146 

137 
136 
135 
126 
127 
137 


230 
246 
241 
190 
177 
154 

164 
166 
161 
163 
152 
147 


1,777 
1,868 
1.910 
1,525 
1.378 
1,314 

1,238 
1,282 
1,290 
1,245 
1,201 
1,228 


0) 


(') 


294 
291 
294 
275 
258 
234 

216 
212 
217 
205 
196 
205 


136 
142 
142 

148 
137 
120 

99 
96 
122 
94 
94 
98 


158 




149 








152 








127 








121 








114 


1940: 






117 








116 








95 








111 








102 










107 



















1 Break-down not available. 

Nonresident case load, Cuyahoga County Relief Bureau, January 1939 to July 

19J,0 



Year and month 


Tota : 


Major 
service 


Over- 
night 
service 


Minor 
service 


1939; 

July 


1,105 
1,129 

801 
1,195 
1,018 

788 

960 
912 
1,063 
1,404 
1,428 
1,382 


695 
714 
721 
646 
589 
534 

517 
514 
513 
494 
475 
489 


313 

298 
24 
471 
377 
198 

328 
315 

476 
835 
900 
837 


97 




117 




56 


October . . - -- 


78 




52 




56 


1940: 


115 




83 


March . 


74 




75 




53 


June . -- - 


56 







260370 — 40— pt. 3- 



-21 



|]^28 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

Number of sailors receiving care as nonresidents, in Cuyahoga County 



Month 



January. - 
February. 

March 

April 

May 



1939 



163 
193 



1940 



56 
63 
109 
152 
136 



Month 



June 

July 

August 

September 



49 
152 
101 

45 



This year seamen were required to malie application for jobs at steamship 
home offices, several of which are located in Cleveland. The Neutrality Act sent 
a lot of salt-water seamen to the lake region to look for work. 



STATEMENT BY W. R. SULLINGER, FARM PLACEMENT SUPERVISOR 
FOR THE OHIO STATE EMPLOYMENT SERVICE 

WE OBSERVE THE NEED FOR REGXILATIONS TO CONTROL THE FLOW OF MIGRATORY FARM 

LABOR 

1. Ohio labor is gradually being replaced, particularly in the agricultural field, 
by labor imported from Kentucky and Texas. This type of labor prevails in the 
beet, celery, onion, and tomato fields. 

2. Many relief cases are resulting from this condition. 

3. Loss of residence to this type of labor in the community from which they 
came causes them much trouble in being able to establish claims for relief when 
in need. It definitely has been shown as there is much relief amongst this type 
of labor in the off season. 

4. Present conflicting regulations encourage migration of this type of labor as 
local officials encourage them to move on, hoping to shift the problem to the next 
point of contact. 

5. This involves a Federal problem, as these people are United States citizens 
not identified with any State or subdivision. 

6. Control of migratory labor will be handled satisfactorily in the proportion 
which employers increase their recruiting through the public employment system. 

7. The need for migratory labor is superinduced by the low wage scale prevail- 
ing in the sugar-beet industry. 

8. It is our opinion that we could recruit all of this type labor needed within 
Ohio if this wage scale were adjusted. Recruiters of this type of labor outside 
of their own area should be responsible for the examination of citizenship and 
eligibility for relief, and probably restore such workers to the original point of 
recruitment. 



TESTIMONY OF H. W. MORGENTHALER— Resumed 

Mr. Parsons, I would like to ask a few questions for the benefit 
of the committee. 

URBAN MIGRATION IN CLEl^ELAND, CINCINNATI, AKRON 

INIr. Morgenthaler. could you tell the committee something of the 
extent of urban migration in the cities of Cleveland and Cincinnati 
and Akron, giving something of the industrial background in each 
case ? 

Mr. ]\IoRGENTHALER. Yes. I would like to present these charts, 
which show you the trend in these two cities over a period of 5 years. 
You can see from these charts that the trend has been upward in each 



i 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1129 

of the cities. It also shows that most of these nonresident people 
come into these cities in the spring or when the warm weather opens up. 

We have had a gradual increase in nonresident migration into those 
two cities. In going back to the period from 1920 to 1930 we had quite 
an industrial boom. In the first place, Ohio is highly industrialized. 
Our problem is one of industry as it relates to migration, we feel, 
more than it is of the agricultural type, as some States have, although 
Mr. Sullinger has some information on the agricultural problem, too. 

Mr. Parsons. The rubber industiy, or the manufacturing of tires, 
in Ohio caused a great desertion of labor from other States, because 
they invited them to come in there ; that is one of the factors, is it not? 

Mr, MoEGENTHALER. Quite true. Between 1920 and 1930 so many 
men were needed they could hardly provide housing facilities. For 
instance, Akron residents who lived there during that period said that 
houses which now rent for $35 were up to $70. People who ran room- 
ing houses would rent the same bed for three shifts in order to take 
care of people. Beds were placed on porches in order to accommo- 
date people. That was the boom period when the tire companies were 
coming in. 

According to census figures, the population of Akron for the last 
10 years has decreased, and not only has the population decreased, but 
the unemployment load has increased. We are told that the rubber 
companies are now producing the same volume of goods as they 
produced in 1929, but they are using many less men. 

Mr. Parsons. As a member of the State welfare department, 
through your State transient committee, what special types of destitute 
interstate migrants have you found? 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER. In the first place, I think the group that is 
giving us the chief concern in the cities is the one composed of those 
who have come in for medical care. We have quite a large number of 
people coming into our cities primarily for medical care. It is inter- 
esting that quite a number of these people tell the medical centers that 
they have heard through the United States Public Health Service 
broadcasts about treatment for venereal diseases, and they come to the 
cities where they understand they can get adequate treatment. 

Many of these people are from Kentucky and other parts of the 
country where they lack medical resources at home. Of course, Cincin- 
nati and Cleveland are highly developed centers, but they are loaded 
down with their own people. They have found every person coming 
in an increased load. 

Mr. Parsons. Do you have a seasonal influx because of industrial or 
agricultural employment ? 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER. I cau spcak for industry, and Mr. Sullinger 
can tell you the agricultural trends. We are, of course, in Ohio, 
affected by the automobile industry. Practically all of the industries 
in Toledo, for instance, are subsidiary to the automobile industry. 
There is a seasonal demand for people. We do have an influx of 
people who think they can get jobs but the result is we have many more 
people than there are jobs for them to fill. 

Local jobs can easily be taken care of by the local people, and still 
have some local employable persons left over. I think we have a 



1130 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

peculiar situation which will also be found in the other Great Lakes 
States, and that is the matter of sailors who are stranded at the end of 
the shipping season. Their boats tie up wherever they happen to be 
when ice forms, and many are without resources. In tlie spring they 
are required to report at the shipping company's main office. Most of 
these offices seem to be in Cleveland. 

If a man happens to tie up in Chicago or Duluth, he must report 
in Cleveland in order to ship out the next year. That has created 
somewhat of a problem in that particular group. 

Mr. Parsons. Has that changed any in recent years as compared to 
what it has been in years past ? 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER. We liave had quite a bit of emphasis on this 
jjroblem lately. The sailors themselves are quite insistent on better 
accommodations than local people are given. They say they must 
have cleaner places to stay, and that sort of thing. Thej' are quite 
demanding. Mr. Sullinger can tell about the agricultural seasonal 
shift. 

Mr. Parsons. I would like to hear from you with reference to the agri- 
cultural part of it. 

]Mr. Sullinger. Ohio is very highly diversified in agriculture as 
well as industry. Ohio produces sugar beets, onions, celery, peaches, 
cherries, and other fruit crops, as well as the regular farm crops. The 
cherry crop is perhaps the first crop of fruit to be harvested or picked 
using migratory labor. Many hundreds of laborers of the migrant type 
enter these fields. 

Mr. Parsons Is that intrastate and interstate? 
Mr. Sullinger. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. "Within the State and adjoining States ? 
Mr. Sullinger. That is right. 

Mr. Parsons. Is there a considerable influx from, say Kentucky and 
Indiana? 

Mr. Sullinger. From Kentucky and Texas is where the majority of 
our migratory labor comes from. However, a few hundred are enter- 
ing Ohio from Michigan to work in the beet fields. 
Mr. Parsons. They started out in Texas? 
Mr. Sullinger. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. And come up as the season comes up? 
Mr. Sullinger. Yes; first they come to the cherry orchards or belt. 
What we term the cherry belt is a district which starts at Port Clinton 
and runs around the southwest corner of Lake Erie, through southern 
Michigan, to the Michigan shore of Lake Michigan. This labor or 
pickers follow this belt, picking cherries to the shores of Lake Miclii- 
gan, and then they return to the starting point and when the peaches 
are ready for harvesting, they go tln-ough this district again picking 
peaches. They again return to the starting point to pick pickles. By 
this time, the apple crop is usually ready to be harvested and the same 
procedure is piu'sued as in the former mentioned crop. After the 
apples and peaches are harvested, they then turn to the vineyards in 
the Catawba Island district. This type of laborer has no doubt created 
some problem in Ohio. A few days were spent by myself in the Scioto 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1131 

marsh, and records show that there are over 600 Kentucky migrants 
in this district. This is causing Hardin County some relief problem. 

Mr. Parsons. Were you here this moi'ning before noon and did you 
hear the Hart famil}' discussing their difficulties? 

Mr. SuLLixGER. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. Do any conditions exist like that up there? 

Mr. SuLLiNGER. To some extent ; yes. The sugar beet is fast replac- 
ing the onion in this marshland. In discussing this with the man- 
ager of the Scioto Land Company which operates about 3,000 to 4,000 
acres, he informed me 70 percent of their crop was gradually getting 
away from growing onions. 

Mr. Parsons. That would present still a diiferent type of labor. 

Mr. SuLLiNGER. That is right. 

Mr. Parsons. Probably in 2 or 3 years you will have that problem. 

Mr. SuLLiNGER. That is right. We must have stoop labor, as it is 
termed, and I do not know as yet how we are going to handle it. The 
Ohio State employment service has studied this type of laborer back 
3 generations to see what is happening. It does not seem as though the 
people in the North can do that type of work. It appears as though 
the people from the southern regions and Mexico are more adapted 
to this type of labor, 

Mr. Parsons. They are mostly Mexicans ? 

Mr. SuLLiNGER. Mostly Mexicans; yes. It does not seem to be diffi- 
cult for them to perform this type of labor. 

Mr. Parsons. What do you mean by stoop labor? 

Mr. SuLLiNGER. Labor requiring bending down to perform. I in- 
quired of one of these laborers in the marsh as to whether it hurt his 
back to work in this stooping position. He informed me that it was 
not the stooping down but the stooping up that hurt. Just over the 
Michigan and Ohio line at Blissfield, Mich., is located a sugar plant 
operated by the Great Lakes Sugar Co. In this district there is over 
600 Mexicans employed, 400 in the State of Michigan, and 200 in the 
State of Ohio. 

Mr. Parsons. Do they go back to Texas in the wintertime? 

Mr. Sltllinger. In discussing this phase with the managers they in- 
formed me that this was the custom. But when you investigate the 
relief problem in these communities it presents evidence that this is 
not completely true. This presents a problem. I am acquainted with 
these circumstances in one district in which they have had around 20 
of these Mexicans on relief. This community has tired of giving them 
direct relief, and is now requiring them to do some work to receive this 
relief. The names of these recipients of relief can be furnished on 
request. It is becoming more and more of a problem. Something has 
to be done about ironing out difficulties which exist between the States 
in respect to settlement laws. Illinois and Indiana, with their 3-year 
settlement law. and Ohio, with its 1-year law, create a problem, par- 
ticularly for Ohio. 

Mr. Parsons. Yes. 

Mr. SuLLiNGER. We are having that difficulty right now. 

Mr. Parsons. The competition right now is on the upward climb 
instead of being reduced. 



1132 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



Mr. SrLLiNGER. Yes ; I do think we have enough hibor in Ohio to 
take care of this situation. They are what is termed "beet weeding," 
"beet blocking," and "tomato picking." A lot of these Mexicans are now 
invading the tomato field. One carload consisting of 40 Mexicans was 
brought^into this district a few days ago. This company is now re- 
questing work in the tomato fields for these migrants. 

Mr. Parsons. Is that done on a contract basis, or do the employment 
offices aid and assist, or do the owners of these large tracts of land have 
a standing agreement with these fellows as to when to come in? 

Mr. SuLLiNGER. It is usually the field men of these sugar companies 
^ho have some contact in Texas who import these men. They go to 
Texas and get a load. However, the Great Lakes Sugar Co. should be 
oiven much credit, as they send a doctor to these Texas fields to give 
This labor a health examination. This labor must have a clean bill of 
health before they are sent up here. 

Mr. Parsons, that is very fine. 

Mr. SuLLiNGER. I was informed that they were going to see to it that 
these men were returned from whence they came. I cannot visualize 
any problem with that, except that they should be handled through a 
public employment service where a complete check can be kept on the 
coming and going of this labor. If 50 are brought in, 50 should be 
returned at the close of the season. This will give a complete count 
and check in the public employment service as to the location of these 
workers at all times. . ■, <- 

Mr. Parsons. Going back to Mr. Morgenthaler, on another angle ot 
it, do the employers in industry frequently recruit an excessive number 
of employees that they do not need ? 

Mr. Morgenthaler. That has been true m the past. We have had, 
for instance, in Canton at one time— this was during the 1920-30 period 
again— a condition where the Timken Roller Bearing Co., to be spe- 
cific, brought a trainload of Mexicans to Canton to work in the mills. 
When the mills closed down, these men were thrown on the city to be 
cared for. We have had the same thing happen in Cincinnati, although 
the Cincinnati people themselves have been successful in holding that 
down to a certain extent. • i i i • 

The thing that is causing us more trouble now, I think, than that is 
the fact that some adjoining States have fewer resources to our cities 
and some find work. They write to relatives in other parts of the 
country— in Kentucky, West Virginia, and in the South. Relatives 
come in and crowded housing conditions result with people becoming 
dependent very shortly after they are here, with all of the health and 
other problems that come along with bad housing. When we try to 
return these folks, we have great difficulty in, first of all, having their 
residences established in another State, and then we find that the other 
State says they are not giving relief, and that these folks should be 
advised if they do come back they are not giving relief, which, of 
course, creates a barrier which the people themselves are not willing 

to face. . . , uiiir • 

Mr. Curtis. Before you leave this Mexican labor situation, by Mexi- 
can" you mean a resident of old Mexico? Or do you mean Mexicans 
from Southwestern States? 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1133 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER. Mexicaiis from Texas and the southwestern 
part of the country. 

Mr. Curtis. They are Americans? 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER. They are living inside of the country ; yes. 

MIGRANTS AND CRIME 

Mr. Parsons. In your statement you mentioned that you had made 
a study or attempted to see ^Yhether or not migrants were the cause of 
increase in crime. 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER. YcS. 

Mr. Parsons. What decision did you arrive at in that study ? 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER. In oue city, in Cincinnati, for instance, they 
have a transient slielter which is equipped to take care of non- 
residents for a short period of time. 

Mr. Parsons. Is that done by the Federal Government or the State, 
or by a cooperation of the two ? 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER. It is douc by the city of Cincinnati and the 
State on approximately a 60-40 ratio, the city bearing 60 percent and 
the State 40 percent. 

Mr. Parsons. Yes. 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER. They found, in 19,000 cases brought into police 
court, that 763 of them were transients. About 90 percent were not 
transients. In other words, 8 percent were the migrants coming 
through. The rest were local people, according to police-court records. 
Of the 8 percent — 763 — over 90 percent were in on very minor crimes. 

We have some small communities where the attitude toward the 
transient is, the best way to handle him is to put him in jail over- 
night in order to protect the community. That is just their way of 
handling them. They have committed no crimes. They merely lock 
these people in their jails overnight. The next morning they tell them 
to get out of town. 

PROOEDURE FOR EMPLOYING AGRICULTURAL LABOR 

Mr. Parsons. Mr. Sullinger, are you with the State employment 
service ? 

Mr. Sullinger. The Ohio State Employment Service. 

Mr. Parsons. What kind of procedure have you developed for fur- 
nishing labor not only to industry but principally out in the agricul- 
tural sections? Do they try to clear through your office? 

Ml'. Sullinger. That is right. It is rapidly growing. 

Mr. Parsons. Have you taken up the matter Avith the employmeiit 
services of other States, if you cannot get labor in Ohio ? 

Mr. Sullinger. That is right. 

Mr. Parsons. For instance, you say our people here in the North 
do not seem to be able to perform this stoop labor. Would you import 
any Mexicans for that purpose? 

Mr. Sullinger. If they had to have them. Before we w^ould let a 
crop fail, or go to ruin, we would go out and get labor, after we had 
exhausted the supply of labor in the local community. That is the 



1134 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

first thing we do. Before we will let a crop spoil and go to waste, 
we will go out and move in enough to take care of the crop, but we 
return them immediately after the crop has been harvested. We see 
that they are returned. 

In the northwest corner of the State it was raining this year. They 
could not get workers. We moved them in from Lucas County, but 
we immediately moved them back. 

Mr. Parsons. Do you have any difficulty in Ohio securing labor 
from W. P. A., getting people and taking them off the rolls and put- 
ting them into this agricultural work? 

Mr. SuLLiNGER. Sometimes we have. We have had to go to the 
regional director of the district and get them to shut down a project 
to get the labor we needed. We have always been able to get it then. 

Mr. Parsons. Do the W. P. A. people accept that kind of employ- 
ment or do they rather shun it ? 

Mr. SuLLiNGER. They Mke to shun it if they can, but according to 
regulations if they turn down any employment like that they are in- 
eligible for W. P. A. 

Mr. Parsons. Do you consider the problem of agricultural labor 
more or le^s a problem of urban migration ? 

Mr. SuLLiNGER. Well, no. They are together. It takes them both 
to fit into the picture. 

Mr. Parsons. There is a considerable problem there, with respect 
to urban and suburban. 

Mr. Morgenthaler. I think perhaps that is true. I do not know 
whether Mr. Sullinger will agree or not. I think it is true that in the 
cities because of the dropping off of industry and the fewer number 
of men needed, and the fact that they are more acutely in need of 
funds, the extra people coming in creates a greater load for them. 
They feel it more than do some of the smaller communities or smaller 
counties because they have had so many more to take care of among 
their own local residents. 

NEED or UNIFORM SETTLEMENT LAAVS 

Mr. Parsons. You mentioned the settlement problem, the problem 
of settlement laws a while ago. We have had varying testimony in all 
three places with respect to the settlement status, l^he requirements 
ranging all the way from 6 months to 5 years. 

Mr. Morgenthaler. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. Would you advocate the abolishment of all settle- 
ment laws or try to arrive at uniformity among the States ? 

Mr. Morgenthaler. From my experience in working with other 
State departments and people in our own State, it is our theory that 
uniform settlement laws are very much needed at the present time. 
We feel that the States are cooperative and willing to try to reestablish 
people where they have lived before, but the laws discriminate against 
them to such an extent that they are barred from giving them tempo- 
rary assistance, even to help them get located. 

Mr. Parsons. If they were all uniform, say 1 3'ear 

Mr. Morgenthaler. Yes. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1135 

Mr. Parsons. Tlie migi-ants themselves would very soon become 
familiar with the 1-year proposition. 

Mr. ]\IoRGEN THALER. Yes ; that is true. 

Mr. Parsons. But if he is a wide traveler as we have found a lot of 
them are, traveling through 8 or 10 or 12 States in the course of a 12- 
month period, of course he would have to be a pretty good mathema- 
tician to keep up with the requirements in all of those States. 

IVIr. Morgenthaler. Of course, some States have passed laws to the 
effect that if you declare your intention of going elsewhere you lose 
settlement. By moving away from your home, if you make a public 
statement or sign an affidavit, you inay lose settlement immediately, 
which creates considerable of a problem. 

I would like to emphasize the fact that these residents of the United 
States — I have heard it mentioned here today by other people — the 
persons who have lost settlement at all points are one of our major 
problems. There is no way to work our plans for rehabilitation, even 
though they seem to belong more logically in other States, if we cannot 
get assistance from other States or other localities in developing plans. 
It is our feeling that along with a uniform settlement law the legisla- 
tion which Mr. Voorhis, of California, has suggested, and with which 
you gentlemen are no doubt familiar, would be a good beginning. We 
are not sure it should go through exactly as it is, but it would give some 
kind of assistance to stabilize people at some point. 

Mr. Parsons. You would try to anchor them where they are, if it 
were possible to do it, either with Federal, State, or municipal aid, or 
a combination of all of them? 

Mr. Morgenthaler. Somewhere where they have a possible oppor- 
tunity of becoming self-supporting, and staying put, if you want to put 
it that way. 

Mr. Parsons. What is your comment upon the settlement laws ? 

Mr. SuLLiNGER. I substantiate his thought. I think they should be 
uniform. I think all States interested should meet and iron it out 
and get them uniform, so that we know just where we are. 

Mr. Parsons. But you would not advocate complete abolition of 
them ? 

Mr. Sullinger. Oh, no. 

Mr. Morgenthaler. No. 

Mr. Sullinger. I would not do that. We have a case down there, 
for instance, of a man who happens to be in Fort Wayne, in the Fort 
Wayne Hospital now. He lived down in Ohio some years ago. He 
went to West Virginia and did not establish a residence there. After- 
ward he went to Fort Wayne and was in the hospital. He has run up 
an $800 hospital bill, and they will not release him. The town says 
they will not pay it and should not pay it. He should have been re- 
leased 6 months ago. He should be out, but he is still in there until 
they can find out who can pay it. West Virginia says, "He is not 
ours." Indiana says, "He is not ours." He is suffering. 

Mr. Osmers. He is in effect a prisoner, is he not ? 

Mr. Sullinger. Yes. He is suffering. It is unintentional with 
him. That is why I say that uniformity of laws would eliminate that 
difficulty, and would average things up. We might pay for somebody 



J 236 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

from Indiana and they might pay for us. After the thing was all 
balanced up, it would be pretty much of an equal proposition. 

Mr. Sparkman. The way it stands now, it seems that all of the States 
are racing against one another in order to get rid of the responsibility. 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER. That is right. 

Mr. SuLLiNGER. That is right. 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER. It is a matter of who can bring the most pres- 
sure to bear. They soon must realize that they are approaching the 
problem with the wrong attitude. 

Mr. SuLLiNGER. They come in, and they do not even take the trouble 
to feed them. They pass them on to the next town, and say, "You take 
care of them." That does not encourage settling down or stability or 
anything. That just keeps them rolling. It is not encouraging. 

Mr. Curtis. In that connection, do you not feel too that someone who 
has settled and is on relief should be given every opportunity to go 
and try his luck at private employment if he has the strength and am- 
bition to do so without holding over him the fear that he belongs to 
no one, if his venture does not succeed ? 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER. That is right. 

Mr. SiTLLiNGER. That is right. 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER. From our viewpoint, I would like to emphasize 
what Mr. Sullinger has said about the matter of labor exchange, the 
matter of getting men to jobs and helping them find it, instead of fol- 
lowing the pattern which has been followed for years of letting them 
go out and hunt jobs when the chances are they will not find them more 
often than they will. 

CATALOG OF MIGRANTS FOR LABOR EXCHANGE 

Mr. Parsons. If we had all of these migrants cataloged and had a file 
on them — even if there are 4,000,000, it would not take such a long time 
to catalog those family groups, because there probably would not be 
more than a million family groups. 

Mr. Sullinger. That is correct. 

Mr. Parsons. If we had them cataloged and their children cataloged^ 
and the employment offices had these files, and all of the States too, 
would that not help out the problem ? 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER. Quite so. I am glad you mentioned the chil- 
dren. 

Mr. Parsons. Then you would find out who was the type of migi'ant 
who was self-supporting, that was needed for labor in these various 
places. You would find out the professional bums, and you could take 
steps to weed them out of the picture. 

In that way you could find out those that were the right type, and 
then find some way to anchor them, with Government aid or State aid,, 
or a combination. Would that be too great a task to attempt ? 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER. I am quite sure that many of these men repre- 
sented in these figures here are looking for work. In fact, we know of 
some of the migrants who come into Cleveland and other cities and find 
jobs where local people do not. Why they do is a speculation. Some 
of them just have more "get out and go" than others. We feel that if 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1137 

you can make it possible for a man to know where he can look for a job, 
rather than just getting out and blindly hunting for it, it would be 
better all the way around. 

Then, too, you have the problem of children. We have families 
coming through, with children being taken from place to place. You 
have healtli problems, school problems, and so forth. 

Mr. Parsons. Very many of these children are working in the bean 
patches and berry patches and so forth because they do not have to do 
so much bending as the adults have to do. 

Mr. SuLLixGER. Here is another illustration for the need of the thing 
you just mentioned : In the southeastern part of Ohio we have a large 
coal field. Mechanization of the mines has created a problem so that 
where thej' have installed certain types of machinery, 20 out of 26 men 
are now out of work. That ratio exists in all of the mechanized mines. 

Mr. Parsons. Twenty out of twenty-six? 

Mr. SuLLiNGER. Yes. 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER. For the most part those men stay there on relief. 
If they could be classified, as I understand they are now for the rearma- 
ment program, as to skills, through Mr. Sullinger's office, there w^ill be 
some possibility of rehabilitating them. The ones who do go out, 
become nonresidents, which causes difficulty in other States. 

Mr. Parsons. That is right. With respect to that problem, I have one 
county very highly industrialized in coal mining, and another mining 
in fluorspar, in my congressional district, where they have mechanized 
the mines. Not only has it been difficult for those miners, but it removes 
any opportunity for their sons to go into the mines, which has been the 
case for the past two or three generations. 

Mr. Morgenthaler. That is right. 

Mr. Parsons. That presents a very serious problem in the State of 
Pennsylvania. That is an old mining State. It presents a problem 
in West Virginia. It presents one in the coal fields of Illinois. 

Mr. Morgenthaler. Exactly. 

IMr. Parsons. It used to be that these boys when they grew up went 
into the mines. Back during the old war days, and during the days 
following, the miners made more than anyone else, practically. They 
made $12 or $15 a day. The wage rate was $5.50, at the lowest, up to 
$12 or $15 per day, and the sons followed the fathers' footsteps, be- 
cause it was a very good job. Now, mechanization has not only thrown 
the men out of work, but it has also thrown the sons out of work, and 
removed any further opportunities of employment. 

Mr. Morgenthaler. Exactly. 

Mr. Parsons. A few years ago down in southern Illinois one of the 
mining companies closed down one of their mines because it was not 
profitable to operate. They had them both mechanized. However, 
they then made this proposition to the men : If the men would work 
for $1 a day less, I think it was $5.50 and $4.50, they would take out 
the loading machines in order to carry the whole load of both mines, 
or the one mine they still operated. The men signed up and it worked 
out very well, but 2 or 3 years ago all of the other mines mechanized 
around them in order to meet competition in the price of coal, and they 



1138 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

had to put the machines back in, and half of those men are stranded 
i"ight now. 

Are there any other questions ? 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER. There is one more thing I would like to say. 
The people in Cincinnati have taken the position that when a man 
comes in, a transient comes in to ask for aid, he asks for work. In 
other words, he does some work in return for what he gets. Tliey feel 
that is an important philoso]Dhy to hold towards that type of aid. 

Mr. Parsons. Do you think so ? 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER, We think it is a very good idea. 

Mr. Parsons. So do I. 

RECOMMENDATIONS 

Mr. IMoRGENTHALER. If auy kind of Federal aid should be extended, 
we urge and suggest that it not be similar to the extent of the Federal 
Transient Program. That was very generous, may we say 

Mr. Parsons. Too generous. 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER. We feel there is need to standardize settlement 
laws, but that assistance should not be a blanket sort of thing, such as 
the Federal Transient Program was. 

Mr. Parsons. Are there any other suggestions that either of you 
have to make ? 

Mr. SuLLiNGER. There is only one more thing I would like to say. 
I feel the State laws ought to be uniform. They ought to get together 
and iron this problem out, so we would have one uniform qualification 
for establishing citizenship. 

Mr. Parsons. This is a national problem, is it not ? 

Mr. SuLLiNGER. That is right. 

Mr. Parsons. Congress, of course, cannot tell the States what kind 
of settlement laws to pass, but if we prescribe legislation involving 
grants-in-aid, we can make it as a qualification. 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER. That is right. 

Mr. Parsons. 1 year, 6 months, 18 months, or whatever we thought 
best under the circumstances. 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER. Something they would all feel could be ac- 
cepted. That was why our transient committee felt there was merit 
in the Voorhis bill. It did offer that possibility. It offered the pos- 
sibility of Federal aid to States which would conform to this general 
level. The State departments have been working in that direction. I 
think we have worked with this problem long enough to be convinced 
that that is true. The American Public Welfare Association in Chi- 
cago has given considerable leadership to that through the conferences 
they have sponsored for State Welfare Department officials. I think 
we are firmly convinced that some kind of uniformity must be reached 
if we are going to get out of this tangle. 

Mr. Parsons. The State Governments Association has done a very 
fine work. 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER. YeS. 

Mr. Parsons. Is Frank Bane connected with it? 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER. YeS. 



I 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1139 

Mr. Parsons. He left Social Security to take over that work. 

Mr. MORGENTHALER. YeS. 

Mr. Parsons. If we had had sense enough a good many years ago 
to open our emplo^nnent offices, both Federal and State, we could 
have saved a lot of this problem of congestion in certain areas. 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER. That is right. 

Mr. SuLLiNGER. That is right. 

Mr. Parsons. Of course, under the Constitution, we cannot regulate 
the activities of the States directly, even though in some instances 
it would be much better for them if we did regulate them. It is pretty 
much like the family group. Dad is always the boss of the family, 
or supposed to be, but the children sometimes resent being bossed, 
although it would be much better if they did not. 

After all, they are just grown-up children to that extent. 

]\Ir. MoRGENTHALER. We fccl that is true to a great extent. We feel 
that if we could get some help from some Federal agency when the 
States are in difficulties, it would be helpful. We went into deadlocks. 
We spend time writing letters and trying to arrive at some basis be- 
tween us. We feel that would be very helpful. 

Mr. Parsons. Thank you, gentlemen. Both of you have contributed 
very greatly to us here by your testimony, and these statements you 
have filed. They will be received and made a part of our formal 
record. 

Mr. Parsons. Do you want to file these charts which you have 
r)resented as exhibits ? 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER. YcS. 

Mr. Parsons. We can receive them, I think, by special permission 
granted to us to cover such things in the hearing. These two charts 
showing the trends in the State of Ohio will be received and made a 
part of the formal record. 

Mr. Parsons. We appreciate your taking the time to come here, 
and we wish to thank you for the valuable information you have 
given us. 

Mr. MoRGENTHALER. We will be glad to cooperate further in any 
way we can. 

Mr. SuLLiNGER. Mr. Hammond, director of the Ohio State employ- 
ment service, asked me to express his regrets, but due to certain 
activities in connection with the preparedness program, he just could 
not get up here. 

Mr. P.^RSONs. Mr. Hammond? 

Mr. SuLLiNGER. Yes. 

Mr. Parsons. Very well, gentlemen. Thank you very much. 

(Whereupon, Mr. Morgenthaler and Mr. SulUnger were excused.) 

Mr. Parsons. We will stand adjourned until 10 o'clock tomorrow 
morning. 

(Whereupon, at 4 : 50 p. m. a recess was taken until 10 a. m. tomor- 
row, Wednesday, August 21, 1940.) 



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INTEKSTATE MIGRATION 



WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 21, 1940 

House of Representatives, 
Select Committee to Investigate the 
Interstate Migration of Destitute Citizens, 

Washington, D. C. 

The committee met at 10 a. m., in the Federal Court Building, 
Chicago, 111., Hon. John H. Tolan (chairman) presiding : 

Present: Representatives John H. Tolan (chairman), Claude V. 
Parsons, John J. Sparkman, Carl T. Curtis, and Frank C. Osmers, Jr. 

Also present: Dr. Robert K. Lamb, chief investigator; James S. 
Owens, chief field investigator: Abe Kramer, field investigator; John 
W. Abbott, field investigator; Ariel E. V. Dunn, field investigator; 
Joseph N. Dotson, field investigator ; Robert H. Eagan, field secretary. 

TESTIMONY OP P. D. BECK, DIEECTOR, REGION III, FARM SECURITY 
ADMINISTRATION, INDIANAPOLIS, IND. 

The Chairman. The Committee will please come to order. Mr. 
Beck will be the first witness. Congressman Sparkman will interro- 
gate you. 

Mi\ Sparkman. Will you state your full name, address, and capacity 
for the record, Mr. Beck? 

Mr. Beck. P. D. Beck, director, region III, Farm Security Adminis- 
tration, Indianapolis, Ind. 

Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Beck, you have filed with us quite a com- 
prehensive statement that has been made part of the record, and will 
be gone over carefidly. It might be that you want to summarize 
that, or else we might bring out some of the facts by questions. 
Whichever way you prefer to proceed, we will be glad to follow that 
<?ourse. 

Mr. Beck. If it is agreeable with you, I would be very happy to 
have you just raise questions you think will be of particular interest. 

The Chairman. Your entire statement will become part of the 
record. 

Mr. Beck. I so understand. 

1141 



-|^J42 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

(The statement referred to is as follows:) 

Statement BY P. D. Beck, Director, Region III, Farm Security Administration, 

Indianapolis, Indiana 

REDUCING migration THROUGH ADJUSTMENT OF PEOPLE TO LAND 

I am very grateful for your invitation to discuss some of the aspects of the 
problem of rural migration in the Middle West. 

The Farm Security Administration is extremely interested in the present 
migration through this region, about which other witnesses are testifying at 
this hearing. Existing conditions among migrants are being examined here 
which call for corrective action by governmental agencies. The establishment of 
migratory labor camps, following patterns previously developed by the Farm 
Security Administration in other regions of the Nation, may be necessary to meet 
immediate problems of unhealthy, unsanitary, and intolerable living conditions, 
not only for the benefit of the migrants themselves, but also to protect established 
population from the infiltration of disease.^ The provision of this type of assist- 
ance within the limits of available funds, is one of the tasks undertaken by the 
Farm Security Administration. 

We also are extremely interested in the possibility of halting unnecessary 
and undesirable rural migration through the development of a program for 
needed rural works. Dr. Will W. Alexander, former Administrator of the Farm 
Security Administration ; Mr. R. C. Smith, my predecessor as Farm Security 
Administration director in region III, who is now with the Bureau of Agri- 
cultural Economics, and other witnesses testified at length on such a program 
before the Senate Civil Liberties Committee in April. 

Both of these approaches to the problem of rural migration — relief of present 
deplorable conditions and creation of new rural employment — are of major 
importance. 

Inasmuch as your committee will doubtless explore these and other matters of 
direct national concern to the Farm Security Administration in Washington, I 
would like to discuss another problem affecting migration, which is of particular 
and growing concern to the people of this area. 

That problem is the adjustment of people, or population, to available land 
resources. 

This hearing is being held in the heart of one of the most abundantly endowed 
land areas of the Nation. 

In 1934, when the National Resources Board reported on the land resources 
of the Nation, its inventory showed that a little more than 7.5 percent of the 
101,000,000 acres of "grade A" land in the United States — the finest cultivable 
land — was within the five States which comprise Farm Security Administration 
region III (Iowa, Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio) and Farm Security 
Administration region 2 (Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota). This "grade A" 
land the Resources Board described as "excellent land for the staple crops climati- 
cally adapted to the region in which it lies." ^ 

The Board's inventory also showed that 36 percent of the Nation's 211,000,000 
acres of "good," or "grade B" land, was in these two Farm Security Adminis- 
tration regions." 

There is, combined, more than 48 percent of the two "good" grades of land in 
the United States in these eight States. 

With such abundant land resources, it might be expected that the area sup- 
ports more than 24.7 percent of the farm population. That, however, is the per- 
centage of the Nation's farm population within the eight States, as shown by the 
Agricultural Census of 1935.° 

In other words, here in the Middle West, one-fourth of the farm population of 
America in 1935 was tilling one-half of the best croplands. 

There is not sufficient data available to accurately estimate the relation of 
people to land resources in the eight States today. 



1 Michigan has anopheles mosquitoes, carriers of malaria. It is not now a malaria area, 
but the State has sent examiners to Texas to examine prospective migrant farm labor to 
prevent malaria carriers from introducing the disease in the northern State. 

2 See table 1, attached. 

3 See table 2, attached. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1143 

However, we have been aware for some time that farmers are rapidly being 
displaced from the rich lands of the so-called Corn Belt. Displacement of 
farmers, and reduction in number of farm units through consolidation of farms, 
of course, widens the disparity between our percentage of farm population and 
available land resources. 

Early this year we conducted a survey of the extent of displacement in the 
five States of region III through our county supervisors. This survey showed 
that out of 57,941 standard rehabilitation borrowers, 2,.'^36 who had' loans in 
1939 and conducted farming operations were unable to get places for the 1940 
crop season. The county supervisors reported that another 6,246 applicants for 
Farm Security Administration assistance, eligible for loans if they could find 
farms, were unable to get located. They also reported that they knew of 16.120 
other renters, not applicants for Farm Security Administration assistance, who 
could find no place to farm during the present year.'' 

These figures, which we then considered conservative and now have additional 
reason to give credence, show a total displacement of 24,702 farm families in 
this rich land area. Apparently a similar situation exists in the three northern 
States of this Middle Western area — Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan. I 
am advised that in our region II, made up of those States, there were 213 Farm 
Security Administration borrowers who had to be "closed out" and their farming 
equipment and livestock sold to satisfy Farm Security Administration loans 
because they could not find farms. Another 838 for various reasons migrated 
out of that region and were transferred out of the States in which they formerly 
resided. Most of them went to the West, to Iowa, and to Illinois.^ 

Some of these displacements undoubtedly were caused by migration into the 
region II States. The in-migration to region II, according to records kept in 
the office of Regional Director Harry Muir, amounted to 369 families." A 
majority of these families migrated eastward out of North and South Dakota, 
the drought areas, into Minnesota. 

We have noted this same eastward movement out of the drought area into 
western Iowa and Missouri. Our county supervisors in those areas, stating 
the causes for the displacement which they reported in the spring, mentioned 
this eastward migration. 

The situation apparently is continuing. I have just received a letter through 
our State director in Iowa which tells of displacement of Iowa farmers by 
people moving from Nebraska. The letter was written on August 7. An excerpt 
from it says : 

"The field man for one of the insurance companies advised me on this date 
that of the 86 real-estate items which he managed in this territory he has sold 
33 since January 1. Seventeen of these items have been in Clarke County. Of 
the 33 sold, 12 have been to Nebraska farmers who plan to move next March 1 
to this territory. He further advises that, out of the 17 sold in Clarke County, 
he has definite knowledge that 32 of the present tenants will be forced to move 
on next March 1. It has been the policy of this particular insurance company 
in the past to make every effort to place their tenants on one of their farms if 
the tenant's present farm was sold. However, he advised me that for the 
coming year he feels that it will be almost impossible for them to take care of 
more than 1 or 2 of the 12 in this county which he knows for sure will have to 
move." 

The principal causes the supervisors cited for displacement throughout our 
region III, however, were the enlargement and consolidation of farms because 
of mechanization, return of owners from rural urban areas to their farms, 
deterioration of land resources, and failure of farmers to "make a go of it" 
either through lack of ability or because of reverses beyond their control. 

While we have been aware for some time of this displacement, we have just 
obtained some preliminary data in region III indicating the extent to which 
consolidation of farms and decline in number of farm units is reducing the 
opportunity for farmers to find a place on the land in the IMiddle West. 

Our county supervisors have reported to us, where obtainable, the number of 
farms enumerated in their counties in the 1940 census enumeration. 

* See table 3, attached. 
" See table 4, attached. 

• See table 5, attached. 

260370 — 40— pt. 3 22 



1144 



I^^TERSTATE MIGRATION 



Tabulation of these reports shows that in 94 of Missouri's 114 counties, where 
231137 farm units were reported in the Agricultural Census of 1935, the 1940 
census takers found only 217,146 farm units this year. This is a decline of 
13,991 farm units in the 94 counties. It is a loss of U.U5 percent which, if applied 
to the total of 267,176 farm units in the State in 1935, would indicate a decline 
of 16.146 farms in the State between 1935 and 1940.' 

Missouri is known as one of the five States contributing most heavily to Pacihc 
coast migration. This decline in farm units in the State in the past 5 years 
may be one reason why. Every time a farm unit disappears, there is a farm 
family which must provide for itself elsewhere, either through migration to 
another area or to an urban center to get employment in private industry or on 
Work Projects Administration or direct relief. 

Despite Missouri's recognition as a major source of migrant farm workers, 
the decline in farm units in that State is not at all out of line with the decline 
in other rich Middle Western States. 

Census takers in 50 of Indiana's 92 counties have reported disappearance of 
9,135 farm units since 1935. This decline, at the rate of 8.065 percent, indicates 
a' possible total decline for the State of 16,197 farms.' , „„ .. 

In Ohio we have prelinuuary census reports from 69 of the 88 counties, and 
there is a loss of 14,130 farming units between 193.1 and 1940 retlected in those 
counties. This is at the rate of 6.92 percent, indicating a possible total decline 
uf 17,681 farm units for the entire State." . ^,,. . ™ 

We have the preliminary census data from only six counties in Illinois. Ihey 
reflect a loss of 491 farm units out of 12,8o3 enumerated in 1935.'" Probably no 
tlose estimate of total decline of farm units in the State is justified from such 
meager data, but final census tabulations will show a disappearance of farming 
units proportionate to adjacent States, we believe. 

In the State of Iowa our oflicials have used another base for determining the 
Kituation, the reports of assessors on farms of 3 acres and more. These I'^Ports 
ihow that in spite of a large increase in the number of farm units between Q930 
and 1935 when the depression caused a considerable "back-to- the-f arm move- 
ment and piling up of surplus farm population, there were ev en fewer farms m 
Iowa in 1940 than there were in 1930. There were 210.343 farm umts in 1940, 
as compared to 213,993 in 1930. The agricultural census for 193o, the mtei- 
vening peiiod, shows 221,936 farm units in the State. The decline between 19o0 
and 1940 appears, conservatively, to have been at least 10,000 units. 

Extremely significant Iowa figures which have also been reported to me con- 
cern the size of farms. The assessors' reports indicated that the average size 
of farms in 1930 was 159 acres. The 1935 Census showed this had declined to 
154 8 acres. The 1910 assessors' reports show that it has again grown to 164 
acres per farm— an average of 5 acres larger than in 1930. 

We fretiuently receive individual reports from our personnel telling of the 
clients who are being displaced by expanding operators. I am attaching an ex- 
cerpt from one such recent report which sliows not only how one of our client 
farmers is being displaced but indicates the intense competition for land among 
renters which too frequently is resulting in overly high rents and wastetui 
mining of the soil to meet these excessive rental payments. In this case, our 
client Mr Joseph A. Arnaud, was farming 100 acres and paying $400 rent. He 
has been notified to move next March 1 because another farmer, already farming 
3->5 acres, is offering $450 rent for the place to add to his present acreage. 
"l believe that on the basis of available data a conservative estimate of decline 
in farm units between 1935 and 1940 for the 5 States mentioned would be < 0,000 

"°The people so dislocated will by no means all become interstate migrants. 
Many of them undoubtedly will, however, and their ranks will be swelled by 
farm laborers who, as well as farm owners and tenant farmers, have been 

^ AnTndica^tion of^what'is happening to these people is contained in a study which 
the Indiana State Unemployment Compensation Service has just made tor us. 

f See table 6, attached. 
8 See table 7, attached. 
8 See table 8, attached. 
i» See table 9, attached. 
" See table 10, attached. 



INTERSTATE MIGRATION 



1145 



On the week of August 5, they ran a survey of cards of 8,073 applicants for work 
in 6 cities and towns. Out of the 8,073, they found that 1,487, or a little more 
than 18 percent, had been farmers, tenants, or farm laborers within the last 3 
years. Only 95 of the 1,487 have been able to obtain employment. There were 
another 271 employed by the Work Projects Administration." 

This decline in farm units is occurring in face of an ever-increasing population 
on farms. Farm population estimates as of January 1, 1940, issued by the Bureau 
of Agricultural Economics, indicate that in the 5-year period our farm population 
has grown from 31.800,907 persons to 32,245,000— an increase of about 445 000 
persons. ' 

In spite of a net migration from farms to cities ranging from 202,000 to 447,000 
each year, farm population is piling up — the ever-increasing surplus apparently 
subsisting as migrant workers, or on Work Projects Administration or relief 

The Farm Security Administration, because of this dangerous displacement 
from the land, has interested itself in encouraging rehabilitating and implementing 
the efficiency of so-called family-sized farms. 

In the richer land areas— and there is no major area with more extensively 
abundant land resources than the Middle West— we are especially interested in 
this problem. In 1934 the census shows that there was an average of 51 8 
acres of land harvested in each farm in the East North Central States and 77 1 
acres harvested per farm in the West North Central States. This compares to 
average harvested acreage of 25.6 in New England, 37.4 in the Middle Atlantic 
24.4 m the South Atlantic, 22.6 in the East South Central States, 42 4 in the West 
South Central, 54.0 in the Mountain States, and 43.6 in the Pacific States 

Even these figures on harvested acreage must be considered along with land 
grades, which I have previously mentioned, to get a true picture of the present 
adjustment of people to land resources in this area as compared with other areas 
of the United States. 

Here in the Middle West, our agricultural press and daily newspapers are rais- 
ing the question whether or not we must make a choice"^ between familv-sized 
farms or, as one paper put it, '-Grapes of Wrath." 

The Farm Security Administration is doing as much as it can with available 
appropriations to help disadvantaged and financially distressed farmers retain 
their foothold on the land. 

In the 8 States in regions II and III, we now have outstanding standard 
loans to more than 91,000 farm families who were unable to get credit from any 
other private or governmental agency. These loans were made to permit them 
to obtain materials needed for a live-at-home program, and for stock and equip- 
ment necessary for a sound farming operation. In addition, we have outstanding 
more than 70,000 emergency loans, made for short periods to tide distressed 
tarmers over some such emergency occurrence as a storm, flood, drought, or crop 

There has also been developed a community and cooperative service program to 
assist groups of small farmers to obtain the advantages of the modern machinery 
and purebred sires \\'hich they could not individually afford. In several thousand 
cases in the Middle West, where single farmers couldn't justify expenditure for 
a purebred sire or modern machinery, the Farm Security Administration has 
k)aned groups of them money to buy sires and equipment to be used cooperatively 
Through these cooperative groups they are able to make a sound investment 
improve their stock, increase their income, and meet the competition of lar-e 
commercial farms. * 

On several of the projects which the Administration has developed in this area 
or which It took over from the Resettlement Administration, an attempt is beine 
made to find patterns under which the security of family-sized farm operators 
can be i-eestablished in face of technological progress giving a competitive advan- 
tage to the large farm operator. 

At Deshee Farms, near Vincennes, Ind., more than 40 families have pooled their 
croplands into a single large cooperative farming operation. Each farmer has hi« 
individual home and subsistence garden tract. But their dairy and livestock herd 
is handled cooperatively and their large fields are cultivated 'and harvested with 
equipment which only such large-scale operations make economically feasible 
Ihe members of the cooperative draw 15 cents an hour for their work at the time 

"See table 11, attached. 



J]^46 INTERSTATE MIGRATION 

the work is done. They are entitled to participate in any profits at the end of tlie 
year on a basis of worlv participation. This income plus the food produced on 
their individual subsistence tracts has made it possible for them to improve their 
living conditions and find a measure of security. As their obligations to the Gov- 
ernment are reduced they will have increasing distributable income. 

At LaForge, Mo., we liave another project where 100 families work individual 
farms. A 6,700-acre tract was purchased and divided into farms for 100 families. 
The entire group, although on individual tracts, have a large cooperative which 
runs their cotton gin, a store, a sire service, and blacksmith shop for them. They 
also have small cooperative groups, using more expensive equipment jointly to 
reduce individual overhead. 

These families, with only two or three exceptions, have met all their obligations 
to the Government, including rent and payments on equipment and livestock loans. 
Their large cooperative has paid $7,500 annual rent to the Government and is now 
a year ahead with payments on its operating loan. This year it will distribute 
back to the 100 families about $3,500 in profits after paying the extra year's pay- 
ment. The incomes and the standards of living of the families have been increased 
remarkably in the 2 years the project has been in opei-ation. 

Through the tenant purchase program, administered by the Farm Security 
Administration under the Bankhead- Jon