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INTERSTATE MIGRATION
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE
INTERSTATE MIGRATION OF DESTITUTE CITIZENS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
SEVENTY-SIXTH CONGRESS
THIRD SESSION
PURSUANT TO
H. Res. 63 and H. Res. 491
RESOLUTIONS TO INQUIRE INTO THE INTERSTATE
MIGRATION OF DESTITUTE CITIZENS, TO STUDY,
SURVEY AND INVESTIGATE THE SOCIAL AND
ECONOMIC NEEDS AND THE MOVEMENT OF
INDIGENT PERSONS ACROSS STATE LINES
PART 3
CHICAGO HEARINGS
AUGUST 19, 20, AND 21, 1940
Printed for the use of the Select Committee to Investigate the
Interstate Migration of Destitute Citizens
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE
INTEESTATE MIGEATION OF DESTITUTE CITIZENS
HOUSE OF EEPEESENTATIVES
SEVENTY-SIXTH CONGRESS
THIED SESSION
PURSUANT TO
H. Res. 63 and H. Res. 491
RESOLUTIONS TO INQUIRE INTO THE INTERSTATE
MIGRATION OF DESTITUTE CITIZENS, TO STUDY,
SURVEY AND INVESTIGATE THE SOCIAL AND
ECONOMIC NEEDS AND THE MOVEMENT OF
INDIGENT PERSONS ACROSS STATE LINES
PART 3
CHICAGO HEARINGS
AUGUST 19, 20, AND 21, 1940
Printed for the use of the Select Committee to Investigate the
Interstate Migration of Destitute Citizens
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
260370 WASHINGTON : 1940
"'^'Sr ^~^T OF DOCUMENTS
?^
1
SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE INTERSTATE MIGRATION
OF DESTITUTE CITIZENS
JOHN H. TOLAN, California, Chairman
CLAUDE V. PARSONS, Illinois CARL T. CURTIS, Nebraska
JOHN J. SPARKMAN, Alabama FRANK C. OSMERS, Jr., New Jersey
Dr. Robert K. Lamb, Chief Investigator
Elmer A. Reese, Secretary
Richard S. Blaisdell, Editar
Harold D. Cdllbn, Associate Editor
James S. Owens, Chief Field Investigator
II
LIST OF WITNESSES
Chicago Hearings, August 19 and 20, 1940
Page
Abbott, Edith, dean of School of Social Service Administration, University
of Chicago. Address : Chicago, 111 1178, 1183
Batjes, Andrew, plumber's helper, later a migrant. Address : 1327 George
Street, Chicago, 111 1056
Beck, P. D., director, region III, Farm Security Administration. Address :
Indianapolis, lud 1141, 1155
Bennett, John B., migrant salesman. Address : 5256 East Grant Street,
Chicago, 111 956
Coldirou, Troy, migrant crop worker. Address : McGuffey, Ohio 1216
de la Pole, Dorothy B., staff associate, National Travelers Aid Associa-
tion. Address: New York, N. Y 912
Deming, Ben, State supervisor, field office operations, Unemployment Com-
pensation Division. Addi'ess : Indianapolis, Ind 976, 980
Dwan, Mrs. Marguerite. Address : Benton Harbor, Mich 1231
Else, Russell, migrant from Nebraska. Address : Superior, Wis 1173
Friday, George, farm employer. Address : Coloma, Mich 1220, 1228
Gould, Howard David, director of industrial relations and research, Chi-
cago Urban League. Address: 3032 South Wabash Avenue, Chicago,
111 1084, 1093
Hanke, Mr. and Mrs. George, migrant woodworker. Address: Salvation
Army Hotel, Chicago, 111 850
Hart, John and Anna, former farmer. Address : Route 1, Whiteland, Ind_ 1016
Harden, Owen, migi-ant worker 1165
Hayden, Spurgeon, migrant, former sharecropper. Address : care of Mr.
Howard Gould, Chicago Urban League, 3032 South Wabash Avenue, Chi-
cago, 111 961
Henderson, M. C, Beet Growers' Employment Committee, Inc. Address:
Saginaw, Mich 1271
Hiler, Albert Lewis, philatelist. Address : 811 West Lawrence Street, Chi-
cago, 111 855
Hunter, Joel D., general superintendent, United Charities of Chicago. Ad-
dress : Chicago, 111 941,945
Jacoby, Neil H, chairman, Illinois Emergency Relief Commission. Ad-
dress: Chicago, 111 820
Johnson, John A. and Opal, migrant cotton pickers. Address Salvation
Army Family Service Bureau, Chicago, 111 1167
Jones, Mary, invalid, migi-ant from Hawaii. Address: Salvation Army
Family Service Bureau, Chicago, 111 966
Kelly, Edward J., mayor of Chicago. Address : Chicago, 111 813
Koppa, Dr. T. M., director, division of tuberculosis, Michigan Department
of Health. Address: Lansing, Mich 1316,1319
Lane, Frayser T., director, social and civic department, Chicago Urban
League. Address : 3032 South Wabash Avenue, Chicago, 111 1084, 1093
Lee, Karen and Kathryu, migrant service workers. Address: Salvation
Army Emergency Home, Chicago, 111 907
Lowden, Silas, migrant youth. Address : 2936 Prairie Street, Chicago, Ill__ 1026
Lyons, Leo M , commissioner of relief, Chicago Relief Administration. Ad-
dre.ss, Chicago, 111 867,878
Marshall, Charles B., director, division of general administration, Indiana
Department of Public Welfare. Address : Indianapolis, Ind__ 1061, 1069, 1076
Mendenhail, Arthur, migrant youth from Kansas. Address: 2944 South
Michigan Avenue, Chicago, 111 971
III
IV LIST OF WITNESSES
Page
Miller, James, uaturalized migrant steel worker. Address: 337 West
Sixty-fifth Place, Chicago, 111 902
Morgenthaler, H. W., administrative assistant, State Department of
Public Welfare. Address : Columbus, Ohio 1106, 1128
Murray, William G., professor of agricultural economics, lowti State Col-
lege. Address : Ames, Iowa 997, 1001
Nail, Harry C, Jr., research consultant attorneys, general section. Council
of State Governments. Address: Chicago, 111 892,895
Neira, Vincent, beet-sugar worker. Address : San Antonio, Tex 1310
Odgers, Mrs. Catherine, migrant mother. Address: 1230 West Adams
Street, Chicago, 111 1080
Osborne, D. B., migrant from Nebraska. Address: Superior, Wis 1304
Rowlands, W. A., district extension leader, professor of land economics.
University of Wisconsin. Address : Madison, Wis 1028, 1035
Shils, Edward, department of sociology. University of Chicago. Address :
Chicago. Ill 888
Stanchfield, Paul L., chief of research, statistics and planning section,
Michigan Unemployment Compensation Commission. Address: 14320
Woodward Avenue, Detroit, Mich 1195, 1210
SuUinger, W. R., farm placement supervisor, Ohio State Employment
Service. Address: Columbus, Ohio 1106
Torkelson, M. W., secretary and executive officer, Wisconsin State Plan-
ning Board. Address: State Office Building, Madison, Wis 1028,1035
Tungate, Leander, migrant fruit and vegetable worker. Address : Route
1, Greenwood, Ind 993
White, Helen, midwestern migrate supervisor, Council of Women for
Home Missions 1324, 1326
Zgorski, Mrs. Jean, migrant mother deprived of settlement rights. Ad-
dress : Salvation Army, Chicago, 111 949
:Zon, Raphael, director. Lake States Forest Experiment Station. Ad-
dress: St. Paul, Minn 1042,1049
STATEMENTS AND MATERIAL SUBMITTED BY WITNESSES
Subject and author
Migrancy and Relief in Illinois
Relief of Migrants in Chicago
Case record, George Hanke case
Historical Aspects of Urban Migration in
the Midwest by Louis Wirth.
Interstate Agreements for the Transfer of
Dependent Migrants.
Work of the National Travelers Aid Associ-
ation.
Summary of State Settlement Laws from
Records of Harry M. Hirsch.
Effect of Amendments to Illinois Pauper
Law on Administration of Relief to
Migrants.
Letter of Township Supervisor, Thornton
Village, Illinois.
Migratory Agricultural Labor Problem in
Indiana.
Farm. Financial Situation in Middle West--
Rural Zoning and Land L^se in Wisconsin __
Population Changes in the Cut-over Region
of Wisconsin.
The Cut-over Region — the Breeding Place
of Migrants.
Letter from Gov. M. Clifford Townsend of
Indiana.
Migration and Transient Activity in Indi-
ana.
Letter and statement from Leo X. Smith,
of Indiana Township Trustees Associa-
tion.
Negro Migration — Its Problems and Con-
trol, by Dr. Horace R. Cayton.
The Problem as it Affects the State of
Minnesota, by Walter W. Finke.
Statement by Members of Ohio State
Transient Com.mittee.
Reducing Migration Through Adjustment
of People to Land.
Letter from Miss S. P. Breckinridge
A New Plan for Caring for Migrant Work-
ers.
Industrial Migration, its Magnitude and
Geographic Character.
Benton Harbor Market Summary
Agricultural Labor in Berrien County,
Mich.
Migrant Problems in Berrien County,
Mich.
Transient Labor in the Michigan Com-
munity Health Project, by W. K.
Kellogg Foundation.
The Employment Problem in the Beet
Fields.
Introduced by witness
Neil H. Jacoby.
Leo M. Lyons. -
Leo M. Lyons.
Edward Shils__
Harry C. Nail, Jr
Dorothy B. de la Pole...
Dorothy B. de la Pole.-.
Joel D. Hunter
Joel D. Hunter.
Ben Deming
Wm. G. Murray _-
W. A. Rowlands..
M. W. Torkelson.
Raphael Zon
Charles B. Marshall.
Chas. B. Marshall. -
Chas. B. Marshall- -
Howard D. Gould —
Claude V. Parsons...
H. W. Morgenthaler.
P. D. Beck
Edith Abbott
Paul L. Stanchfield.
George Friday.
George Friday.
Marguerite Dwan.
A. Kramer
Page
M. C. Henderson.
820, 833
867
884
893
912
929, 930
942
947
977
997
1028
1032
1042
1061
1062
1070
1084
1103
1106
1142
1172
1179
1195
1225
1229
1231
1256
1271
VI STATEMENTS AND MATERIAL SUBMITTED BY WITNESSES
Subject and author
Emigrant Agency Law of Texas. _
Letter from Otis E. Mulliken, U. S. De-
partment of Agriculture, Sugar Division.
Letter from J. F. Thaden, Michigan State
College of Agriculture.
Digest of Motor Carrier Act of 1935
Letter from Erwin H. Kubath, deputy
sheriff, Berrien Co., Mich.
Health Examination Program for Mexi-
can Agricultural Workers, by A. W.
Newitt, M. D.
Letter from U. S. Public Health Service. ..
The Church and Migratory Workers
Relation of Transiency to Crime, by F.
Emory Lyon.
Letter from Dr. Roscoe PuUiam
The Migratory Worker in Michigan, by
George F. Granger.
Letter from National Negro Congress
The Tuberculous Transient — a Socio-
Economic Problem, by M. A. Seidenfeld,
Ph. D.
Introduced by witness
A. Kramer
A. Kramer
A. Kramer
A. Kramer
A. Kramer
Dr. T. M. Koppa
Robert K. Lamb.
Helen White
Robert K. Lamb.
Robert K. Lamb.
Robert K. Lamb.
Robert K. Lamb.
Robert K. Lamb.
1299
1301
1302
1302
1303
1317
1323
1324
1326
1336
1337
1342
1343
I
Jl^TERSTATE MIGRATION
MONDAY, AUGUST 19, 1940
House of Representatives,
Select Committee to Investigate the
Interstate Migration of Destitute Citizens,
Washington^ D. G.
The committee met at 10 a. m. in the Federal Court Building, Chi-
cago, 111., Hon. John H. Tolan (chairman) presiding:
Present: Representatives John H. Tolan (chairman), Claude V.
Parsons, John J. Sparkman, Carl T. Curtis, and Frank C. Osmers, Jr.
Also present: Dr. Robert K. Lamb, chief investigator; James S.
Owens, chief field investigator; A. Kramer, field investigator; John
W. Abbott, field investigator; Ariel E. V. Dunn, field investigator;
Joseph N. Dotson, field investigator; Robert H. Eagan, field secretary.
The Chairman. The committee will please come to order. Let the
record show the presence of Congressman Parsons, of Illinois ; Con-
gressman Sparkman, of Alabama, and Congressman Curtis, of Ne-
braska. Congressman Osmers, of New Jersey, will be here late this
afternoon.
Mayor Kelly, you may take this seat, if you will, please. I want
to say on behalf of the committee, Mr. Mayor, that we feel honored
in having you as our first witness here. We started out in New York
with your friend, I know, Mayor LaGuardia. We very much appre-
ciate your attendance here today. You may proceed in any way you
see fit.
TESTIMONY OF HON. EDWARD J. KELLY, MAYOR OF THE CITY OF
CHICAGO
Mayor Kelly. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am glad to be liere.
We appreciate that you are giving up a lot of valuable time, and we
of Chicago appreciate it very much. Chicago welcomes the activities
of this committee, which is investigating the interstate migration of
destitute people.
As a large industrial city that is quickly affected by business set-
backs and seasonal slumps in unemployment, there is this fairly unified
conviction about the problem of relief :
First, that the morale of the jobless is best conserved by a work
and wages program, under Federal aid and control.
Secondly, the drastic requirements relating to the sponsored contri-
butions to be made by cities have frequently prevented their partici-
pation in many worth-while projects.
I realize that you are investigating the plight of destitute citizens
and not the problem of financing local relief projects — ^but there are
81S
g|4 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
ceHuiri collatoral issues affectin^r the micrratory workers which should
be lii^h-li^hted by your investigation.
ISIIGIUTION PROBLEM IN CHICAGO
Cliieajjo is so located, as the economic and .social hub of the West,
tliat many people from the South, the East, and the West, who have
lost their work opportunities— who have been tractored ott the land—
or who have been unable to maintain a decent standard m their own
comirnmifies- have drifted naturally toward a big city like Chicago.
Many families, made hopeful by misinformation, have journeyed to
Chicago, believing that it's a mecca of opportunity.
And Chicago has felt the same shocks and had to provide the same
cushions for unemployment as other large industrial areas.
Becjiuse Chicago is a transportation center it has become a stopping
place for many thousands of joble,ss who had been displaced in other
cities. Our re'lief facilities have been taxed greatly.
ll(M-ent amendments which were made by the State legislature to
the paujx'i- laws of Illinois set up a 3-year residence law. This provi-
sion made it mandatory in the administration of relief to give
assistance only to those needy pei-sons who had resided m Illinois for
3 yciii's [)rece(rnig their api)licati(m for help.
■(;hic,ag() caniiol and does not ignore the privations that many of
these pe7)ple suilVr— and private charitable organizations have faced
a staggei-ing burden in trying to cope with this emergency.
Without supi)ort from' Federal agencies, the relief program of our
public and ])rivate agencies would have been so seriously disrupted
us to be helpless in meeting the problem of caring for the needy and
tlie lobless.
ijir |mm■^h. .
Chicago is more than anxious to remain the city of opportunity and
is hapi)v to know that business opportunities are increasing — as the
latest figures on factoi'y i)i-()duction and pay-roll indexes will prove.
I might say hero that this up-surge of business has been felt with-
out the additional improvement that will come from the preparedness
ju-ogram — and we know that Chicago will benefit from that gubstan-
tialfv.
('liicago does not want to set up any barriers which would keep
worthy ])eople from the work opportunities which will develop in
the future. Chicago does not want to be deprived of the energy and
determination of men and Avomen — skilled and unskilled— -who are
anxious to obtain a livelihood here and to make a contribution to
the neighborhood in which they live.
We can expect a certain exjxinsion of our industries to meet the
new economy, both of national tlefense and new trade opportunities in
the Americas. But Chicago wants to be realistic about its oppor-
tunities, both for the citizens now living here, who deserve its oppor-
tunities, and for other citizens who may come here.
However, we are not hanging up any wide open "welcome"' signs
for any and all individuals to come here, because they have been
unable to earn a decent livelihood in other cities.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 815
The iDrobleni of the migratory worker did not have its origin in
Chicago — in the 50 wards and the 75 communities of this city we
have a solid and substantial citizenry, with many thousands of small
homeowners and small taxpayers who have been the backbone of the
city's enterprise and growth.
Their responsibility to their connnunity and their eagerness to
build up a good life among good neighbors has been one of their
highest motives in building communities in Chicago,
We can see that this problem in its basic aspects goes back to the
farm lands — to the flood and Dust Bowl areas — where people have
been swept off the land — and also those shifting industrial and sea-
sonal farm conditions which may require large pools of labor at one
time of the year, but not at another. Chicago is not a one-industry
city.
And because of the variety of work opportunities in its manufac-
turing and connnercial life there has been, despite world panic and
economic upheavals, a better-than-average stability in our productive
enterprises.
There has been a closer cooperation between numicipal, business,
and civic groups to strengthen Chicago's physical and spiritual
assets.
There are many liabilities creat-ed by the niflux of migratory work-
ers that make this investigation of yours a pertinent, constructive
duty of the Federal Government.
lunderstand that our relief commissioner, Leo Lyons, has prepared
a break-down and a good summation on the problem as it affects
Chicago. And I understand, also, that Chicago's able and competent
commissioner of public works, Oscar Hewitt, will also be available
for questioning on this relief problem.
RECOMMENDATIONS MIGRATION IS FEDERAL PROBLEM
I would not like to propose today a comprehensive solution to the
problems of interstate migration.
I would like the indulgence of your committee and permission to
file with you at a later date a complete statement concerning the
problem and its possible solution as we see it — and by "we" I mean
not only myself and the relief officials of the city of Chicago, but
also the mayors of the cities of the United States who are organized
in the National Conference of Mayors.
All of us who belong to that organization have a definite stake in
the work of this committee, and we feel that the statement which is
ultimately presented to you should incorporate the views and opinions
of all the mayors of the United States.
I would say in general, however, that I feel now as I felt when I
testified in Washington in 1939 before the House committee inves-
tigating the Works Progress Administration, that cities cannot be
perpetually expected to carry the relief burdens imposed upon them.
I feel that the problem of migration is not an issue which confronts
Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, or other isolated areas on our maps,
but that it is a problem which encompasses the entire United States,
§]^Q INTERSTATE MIGRATION
and for this reason I am strongly inclined to the belief that the solution
of the problem lies in some form of Federal aid and supervision.
The problems of relief have grown too complex, and the numerous
local bodies who administer relief are sometimes overlapping and
costly. It is my opinion that the Federal administration of work re-
lief has been remarkably free from misuse of power or funds, and
should continue to supervise such spending.
And I know that Chicago has, under the most trying circumstances,
an eminently clean record in its assistance programs for the needy and
the unemployed.
Chicago would do much more if it could — but already its resources
have been stretched to the limit in its endeavor to keep up the morale
and to prevent starvation among the unfortunate and the underpriv-
ileged. We cannot provide more relief with less money.
But surely this type of investigation should bring to light the means
and methods whereby relief for the migratory worker can be on a more
practical basis.
Chicago has frequently faced this problem with a good heart but
an empty purse, and unless Federal moneys are available we cannot
wishfully think ourselves into its solution.
We are happy to cooperate with the Federal Government in this in-
vestigation.
We trust that during your stay in Chicago you will develop some
real contributions and some sound answers to the questions you have
in mind.
You may count on the mayor's office for any assistance within its
power to render or give. Thank you.
The Chairman. Mr. Mayor, speaking for myself, as chairman of
the committee, I think that is a remarkable statement that you have
presented, and a fine contribution to our record. You will be per-
mitted to insert in the record any statement, any additional state-
ment, you see fit.
Mayor Kelly. Thank you.
The Chairman. I am glad to hear you say you think this investiga-
tion is worth while, Mr. Mayor. There are about 4,000,000 people
annually who go from State to State, and when they get there, they
are foodless, homeless, jobless, Stateless, and hopeless.
SETTLEMENT LAWS
You have a 3-year residence law, is it, now ?
Mayor Kelly. Yes.
The Chairman. Some States have a 5-year residence law, and some
as low as 6 months.
Mayor Kelly. Yes.
The Chairman. If we could get some uniformity in that type of
legislation, there would be one solution; but there is not just one
answer. There are several answers to this proposition.
In the first place, the 48 States have been very careful not to raise
any tariff barriers on other States for the shipment of commodities.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 817
but tliey are raising barriers now against human interstate commerce,
are tliey not?
Mayor Kelly. Yes.
The Chairman. As you pointed out, it is a big problem. Do you
not feel, Mr. ISIayor, it is a national problem?
Mayor Kelly. I do. I think 3 years is too long. I know of many
instances where it has been a real hardship. I can cite one case of a
young colored man who came here thinking that he could get work,
or get relief. Of course, he was not recognized. He became a high-
wayman. He shot a policeman. The policeman shot him. He got
199 years in the penitentiary. It does not seem to me as though there
was anything else for that man to do. He was starving. He could
not get on relief. He could not get a job. He could not get any-
thing. He finished up with 199 years.
No doubt there are a lot of criminals created because of the fact
they cannot get adequate relief.
The Chairman. I do not know whether you read an article entitled
"A Native at Large," by Jonathan Daniels in The Nation of August
10, 1940; but I brought it down here because I have read your state-
ment, and so many things j^ou said, he said.
I just want to call your attention to this :
But I am glad the migrants moved, even to brutal murder in Chicago, mass
violence in California. This business back of Bigger Thomas, this business which
drove the Joads, is not a migrant problem. The migrants are only the messen-
gers, carrying both news and shame to the whole land. California did not like
it, and Chicago is not entirely pleased about it. That is not hard to understand.
The reason the landlords tied up their tractors to the tenant houses and pulled
them down was that not even the toughest landlords want hungry children on
their places, under their eyes. What I fear now is that in California and
Chicago, New York, and Detroit, the war abroad will pull all our home memories
down. I am grateful to Congressmen and novelists and playwrights, to every-
body who keeps these people under our eyes. The only answer will come from
uninterrupted attention. They will not stop starving or moving because they
are forgotten.
That is quite correct, do you not agi-ee, Mr. Mayor ?
Mayor Kelly. Yes; absolutely.
The Chairman. Now, there is the thought, since we have been
investigating this matter, that they should stay in their States of
origin ; that they should stay at home ; but there are thousands driven
from the land. They are not going to sit down and die. That is the
problem.
I might say to you, Mr. Mayor, that the Farm Security Administra-
tion has taken care of 800,000 families in the South. That is, they have
loaned them a horse, or a mule, or a cow or seed, and 85 percent are
paying the money back ; but there are still 500,000 families uncared for.
We do not claim that we have found the answer, but we are certainly
going to do our very best to get all the facts, and you have given us a
very fine contribution this morning. On behalf of this committee, I
wish to thank you, Mr. Mayor.
Mr. Parsons. Up until recently the settlement law was for 1 year in
the State?
Mayor Kelly. Yes.
gj^g INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Parsons. Was it because of so many coming in and applying for
relief that the legislature raised the settlement time from 1 year to 3
years?
Mayor Kelly. Congressman Parsons, that law did not originate in
Chicago, to my knowledge, or the change in the law.
Mr. Parsons. I see.
Mayor Kelly. There was so much talk about many people coining in
and taking the place of others, it was considered necessary to pass it in
the legislature. I do not know how much it amounts to. I do not know
how many people it keeps out, if any.
Whether it is paid for by the State or the Nation, somebody has to
lake care of tliem, when they come here. I do not know who it is, but
they are taken care of one way or another. Whether they are taken
care of by the fact that they take what they want, or they work cheaper,
or do things that the average man would not do, I do not know.
However, if they are coming in. they are living. They are not dying
from starvation. 1 do not know whether that change originated w^ith
the relief commission, or whether it originated within the mind of some
member of the legislature. It did not originate in the city adminis-
tration.
Mr. Parsons. There have been two schools of thought along that
line, as we have gone from place to place. There is one school of
thought among the social-service group that advocates the abolition of
all settlement laws. Then there is another school of thought which
Iiolds that we should probably have settlement laws, but they should be
uniform in the various States.
Mayor E^elly. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. Would you advocate uniformity, or complete abolition
of settlement laws?
Mayor Kelly. Perhaps I do not understand just exactly what you
mean by the term "settlement laws." Will you explain what you mean
by that term?
ITNirORMITY IN RESIDENCE REQUIREMENTS
Mr. Parsons. I mean the same as the residence requirement here
that the legislature has changed to 3 years. Some States have as high
as 5 years. There are two or three States in which it only takes 6
months until they can apply for relief. Would you advocate the
repeal of all of the settlement laws of the States, or would you advocate
uniformity of all the settlement laws of the States ?
Mayor Kelly. Well, I think there ought to be uniformity, and I
think the kind and character of the man or person ought to guide the
settlement law requirements. For instance, if a man is a professional
traveler who travels all over the country and drops in here and there
just to get a living, that is one thing. But if a man has a family and
he is a good citizen of the United States living in "Squeedunk," Iowa,
or some other place, and he has no chance to live, I think it is rather
cruel to keep him from living in the city to which he wants to go.
If he cannot get work, he ought to be taken care of in some manner.
I do not believe in making everybody starve just because they
do not live in a certain district. I really think that those who have
INTEHSTATE MIGRATION 819
come here should be taken care of some way or another. We have to
pay taxes, and pay a lot of taxes, but you have to take the good and
bad in every city, regardless of what might happen.
I think if it was a national law, or if it was uniform m every way,
it might stop some of these people who are tramping from one State
to the other, because they might have a record of them from one State
to another, and vou would know just what was going on.
There are professional reliefers just as there are professional every-
thing elses.
Mr. Sparkman. We are not concerned with them.
The Chairman. We are concerned with the good citizen who wants
to move and wants his family to move.
I^Iayor Kelly. I think Chicago has shown that she w^ould be glad
to take care of that kind of people.
The Chairman. I do know that Chicago has done a wonderful job
in taking care of destitute citizens.
Mr. Parsons. It is the thought of some that if you abolish the settle-
ment laws you probably encourage a lot of people to become profes-
sional travelers.
Mayor Kelly. As I say, there is a way of checking those. You can
check them very easily.
Mr. Parsons. Of course, the only matter in which the Congress has
any jurisdiction is the matter of interstate migration. We cannot
touch the settlement laws; but if the Federal Government gave the
States grants-in-aid, then our jurisdiction would probably follow the
dollar as it has in a good many other things.
It is my idea that there should be uniformity, probably not to exceed
1 year, and that, of course, would put the damper upon the profes-
sional, because he would know he could not leave Illinois and run over
into Wisconsin because relief might be better there and apply for
relief the next day after he arrived.
However, I think 3 years is much too long.
Mayor Kelly. You could use the other way too. You could have
a national check on all relief. A man is supposed to stay on relief
a certain time, or work relief a certain time, and you could have
it apply in every State. If a man got to be a professional reliefer,
and he would not take a W. P. A. job, or any other job, he could
be off relief all over the country.
If you had no checks, he could be jumping from State to State, and
you would not have any record. That would be his business, that
of a racketeer in relief. Those are the things I think the Government
could remedy, many other things along that line.
The Chairman. Your statement is a very splendid one. Mayor
Kelly. I am very happy that you were able to come down here this
morning.
Mayor Kelly. I am glad to be with you.
The Chairman. The city is very well represented this morning.
Mayor Kelly. Thank you.
(Whereupon, Mayor Kelly w^as excused.)
The Chairman. Mr. Jacoby.
g20 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
TESTIMONY OF NEIL H. JACOBY, CHAIRMAN ILLINOIS EMERGENCY
RELIEF COMMISSION, CHICAGO, ILL.
The Chairman. Will you state your full name and official ca-
pacity for the record, please, Mr. Jacoby?
Mr. Jacoby. Neil H. Jacoby, chairman, Illinois Emergency Relief
Commission, Chicago, 111.
Mr. Parsons. Mr. Jacoby, I have read your statement. This is
the third hearing we have conducted. I want to say to you that
this statement of yours is one of the most illuminating that I have
heard presented to the committee. Some of the other members who
just arrived this morning have not had time to read it. I am going
to ask you to read the first six pages. It will not take very long. I
think it will be of interest to the committee and those assembled
here.
Mr. Jacoby. First of all, I would like to say on behalf of Governor
Henry Horner, whom I have the honor to represent, and as chair-
man of the Illinois Emergency Relief Commission, that I cordially
welcome the honorable members of this committee to the State of
Illinois. I hope your hearings in the city of Chicago will be pro-
ductive of aid in the solution of problems of interstate migration
of destitute citizens.
I might add that had Governor Horner been physically able to
appear, I have a strong feeling he would have been here. I know
he has a sincere personal interest in everj'thing that concerns public
welfare.
Mr. Parsons. It is very regrettable that the Governor is unable
to be here. I know if his health permitted, he would be at this
hearing. I know he would welcome the opportunity to be present.
I know of his very keen interest in matters of public welfare and
the human equation. We regret very sincerely that he cannot be
here, and I wish you would convey to him our sincere best wishes.
Mr. Jacoby. I shall do so.
Mr. Parsons. You may read the first six and a half pages. I
have gone over it, and I think it is quite illuminating.
Mr. Jacoby. (Reading:) It is a pleasure to appear before this
committee and to make a statement on these most important prob-
lems. Few public issues are, in my opinion, more deserving of atten-
tion from the citizens of this country today than the plight of needy
American citizens who wander from State to State, and who seem to
be wanted nowhere. Careful consideration must be given to all of
the ramifications of the problem, so that an intelligent approach may
be made to its solution. "Snap'* judgments on so difficult an issue
are bound to be faulty.
The selection of Chicago and the State of Illinois for first-hand
observation of migration is an indication of sound judgment on the
part of this committee. The State of Illinois lies at the cross roads of
the Nation. From East and West, from North and South come men,
women, and children en route to seek their fortunes elsewhere. The
metropolitan region of Chicago is a point of convergence of all modes
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 821
of transportation. It is one of the most highly industrialized regions
in the Nation. The State of Illinois also contains a large rural popula-
tion, and the conflict between urban and rural ideas of government is
no less severe in this State than anywhere else in the United States.
Wliile prophets of doom have been decrying the disappearance of
the counti-y's geogi'aphical frontier, Illinois still remains a State of
opportunity. Its large and varied natural resources still await the
application of human ingenuity and initiative. As one illustration, I
might note that during the past 4 years a great new oil-producing area
has been discovered in the central part of Illinois, and this State has
moved up to fourth position in the roster of oil-producing States. All
these factors have a definite bearing upon the problem of interstate
migration of destitute citizens.
With your permission, I should like initially to turn the attention of
the committee to some of the broader, more fundamental issues, raised
by the general problem of migration.
DESLRABLLITY OF MIGRATION
First of all, is migration desirable? The general answer to this
question, I think, must definitely be in the affirmative. If we desire to
obtain the best combination of productive resources, and to produce
the greatest amount of material wealth for the people of this country,
we nuist permit our human and physical resources freely to be trans-
ferred to places of greatest employment opportunity both rapidly and
economically. In a free-enterprise economy, such as our own, free
exchange in the market place and private enterprise are mainly relied
upon to achieve this end. We assume that each person will seek to
l)ursue his own best interests, and that the lure of personal advantage
will bring together business ability, capital, and labor in the most
economical manner.
This will be recognized as a simple statement of the doctrines first
propounded by the so-called classical economic thinkers of the nine-
teenth century. Although this doctrine is no longer accepted with
unanimity, and certainly requires modification in the light of present-
day conditions, it is deserving of attention if only because it was based
on the keen obseiwation of some of the greatest thinkers of the eight-
eenth and nineteenth centuries, among whom are included founders
and leading citizens of this Nation.
It is hard to deny that human experience bears out the wisdom of
this doctrine in its general terms. Migration has served as the back-
ground for some of the greatest historical episodes of mankind. The
journeys of our Biblical forefathers, the voyages of Columbus and of
our great explorers, the hazards faced by our colonial ancestors, the
movement of covered wagons across trackless prairies all attest to the
fundamental nature of human migration.
Our founding fathers sought to establish mobility of labor and
of commerce when they wrote into the Constitution of the United
States a prohibition against obstructions to interstate trade in this
greatest of all free-trade areas.
822 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Let me add, at this point, Mr. Chairman, the thought which you
touched upon a little earlier. We have had a great deal of public
discussion on the growth of barriers to the interstate trade of com-
modities. It seems to me that one of those barriers, not in commodi-
ties, but to the movement of humanity, is actually becoming far more
serious.
We have gone from a 1-year settlement law in Illinois to a 3-year
settlement law. We have had disputes with the State of Indiana,
I know, whereby they refused to take care of citizens of oursi who
have moved into Indiana unless we in turn agree to take care of their
destitute citizens moving here.
Unless some stop is put to this trend, I can see us going from 5-year
residence laws to 10-year residence Jaws and ultimately freezing our
popuhition where they are found. When that happens, it seems to
me we have lost one of the great forces for progress in this country.
The Chairman. I wonder if I could interrupt vou just a moment,
Mi\ Jacoby?
Mr. Jacobt. Yes.
The Chairman. Off the record.
(Discussion outside the record.)
Mr. Parsons. I wag interested in your presenting the first six
pages, and the first five lines on page 7, as I have it here.
DISSEMINATION OF INFORMATION
Mr. Jacoby. That migration does not in every case result in gain
to the individual and to society was, of course, recognized by the
"classical" economic thinkers. Lack of accurate knowledgei by the
migi-ant was considered to be a chief obstacle to the succesis of migra-
tion. A man who moves to another State merely because of rumors
of well-paid employment that are baseless, is not bettering his own
condition or that of society.
Even migration based on knowledge of the best available facts
leaves room for risk and misfortnne. But it raises the probability of
advantageous migration far above aimless movement in ignorance
of the relevant facts. It would appear to be a proper function of
government to make all facts available regarding employment oppor-
tunities to potentially migrant people. This seems to be an element
in an intelligent policy.
I might say that I have not probably thought through all the rami-
fications as to how tlie dissemination of better information and the
prevention of the dissemination of untrue information can be brought
about. I have a feeling that the Federal Employment Service has
not functioned as effectively in this field as it might. Some means
might be developed whereby the Employment Service would make;
available to people on relief, and especially the migrant, thei fticts
regarding job oj^portunities, regarding costs of living, regarding
wage rates, and so forth, in other areas.
Too much of the information that is now being disseminated seems
to be misinformation.
It may be asked whether these principles apply to the utterly
destitute migrant as well as those having private resources. Prob-
INTERSTATE MIGRATION g23
ably destitute migrants are governed in their moA^ements by much
the same motivesi as other migrants. They may be handicapped by
lack of means to migrate. They may not liave as full knowledge of
the facts regarding employment opportunities as others, but they too
may be expected to migrate when they believe it is to their best,
long-run interests to do so. The problem is whether there are any
special inducements for destitute migration not present in the case
of self-supporting citizens, that call for special limitations on the
movement of the destitute.
CAUSES OF MIGRATION
Migration rarely occurs for a single, clear-cut reason. Most often
people decide to move for a combination of reasons, although one of
these reasons may at the time predominate. One of the dominant
reasons is unquestionably to accept or to seek einployment. We
have no data to indicate the number of persons now employed in
Chicago and in Illinois who came from other States in a destitute
or near-destitute condition. Undoubtedly, they number in the tens
of thousands.
Even in the darkest days of the depression of 1929-1932, some
people were coming from other States and cities and were obtaining
employment in Illinois. Still other thousands came to Illinois to
seek employment, but were disappointed. "VMiat happened to them
we do not know. Some returned home or moved on to seek employ-
ment elsewhere. Others remained here to live with relatives and
friends. Still others waited until their resources! gave out, and
applied for relief.
The paradox is that people continue to migrate to Illinois in order
to obtain employment, wliild thousands of Illinois residents hava
remained unemployed and are seeking work. Some of this migra-
tion — ^unfortunately we have no way of estimating it — is probably
due to lack of adequate knowledge. Insofar as this is the case, every
eifort should be made by governmental authorities to make informa-
tion on employment opportunities more readily available, and to
improve existing sources of information.
A considerable amount of migration occurs because positions are
already waiting here, for example, for highly skilled workers not
available in the State, or because employers have moved their plants
into the State from other States. There are numerous reasons other
than, oi' in addition to, the search for employment that bring desti-
tute people to Illinois. Some individuals become stranded in the
State while on their way to definite destinations. Others come to
stay with relatives. Still others come for educational purposes or
for medical care.
It is often stated that the majority of destitute persons migrate to
Illinois chiefly to get on the relief rolls. Little tangible evidence is
available on this point, and I believe it would be very difficult either
to prove or disprove this claim. People will not, of course, readily
admit that they came to the State simply to get on relief rollsi, even if
such was the case. There seems to be no way of ascertaining defi-
260370— 40— pt. 3-
g24 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
nitely which, of all the reasons for migrating, was dominant in the
mind of the migrant at the time he decided to move.
It is nevertheless difficnlt to deny that the availability of more
generous relief elsewhere does provide one of the inducements to
migration by the destitute or near-destitute, but the strength of
this factor cannot be weighed. When relief grants are higher at
home, this probably is a deterrent to migration. When relief grants
are more generous elsewhere, it probably is an inducement to migra-
tion. Kesidence requirements for relief also affect migration.
If migration results in loss of settlement and ineligibility for
relief at home, and also in ineligibility for relief elsewhere because
of lack of residence requirements, this will form a powerful deter-
rent to migration, providing the destitute person is aware of these
facts. If no residence requirements exist, migration may be stimu-
lated. Thus the availability of relief, the scale of relief grants,
and residence requirements, while perhaps not sufficient in them-
selves to induce or deter migration, may exert considerable influ-
ence on it. They may often ''tip the scales" one way or another for
persons considering migration. [Reading ends.]
Mr. Parsons. That is as far as I had planned to have you read.
Mr. Jacoby. Very well.
Mr. Parsons. That is a very illuminating statement. It gets right
at the crux of this question. Do you believe, Mr. Jacoby, that any
restriction should be placed on the migration of citizens, destitute,
or self-supporting ?
Mr. Jacoby. Congressman Parsons, as this statement indicates, I
think the general answer to the question is "no"; that people ought
to be free to move throughout the Nation. The minute we have some
governmental agency, whether it is Federal or State, telling the
people "You must go here" or "You must work there," we are losing
one of the essential features of what we call a democratic! govern-
ment, and are coming pretty close to the Hitler type of economics.
I think we ought to avoid that.
The main qualification is that people must move in an informal
way. They must know why they are moving and for what reasons.
Mr. Parsons. If our people had not been permitted to migrate, we
would not have had this fine, beautiful land of ours settled up,
would we?
Mr. Jacoby. I believe that.
Mr. Parsons. As a migrant said to the chairman and myself the
other day in Washington just before we left, they would not sit
down and starve ; they are not going to sit down and die. They are
going to travel somewhere, both the self-supporting and destitute
citizens.
Mr. Jacoby. That is true. You cannot blame them.
accurate information on job conditions should be disseminated
Mr. Parsons. That is right. Do you believe that the dissemina-
tion of accurate information concerning job opportunities or the
lack of job opportunities will tend to reduce migration ?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 825
Mr, Jacoby. Well, now, I would think in a time of depression
such as we have experienced, if the people were more accurately in-
formed about lack of jobs elsewhere, there probably would have
been less migration. On the other hand, when business is fairly pros-
perous the chances are more accurate knowledge and dissemmation
of information might lead to some more migration. That actually
occurs. In other words, it is a matter of the state of business.
Mr. Parsons. I remember when Boulder Dam work was started.
It was just getting underway about the time I wa,s elected to Con-
gress the first time. Of course, the depression was just begimiing,
and a tremendous number of migrants were starting on the tramp.
There were more than 100,000 people that pulled into that little town
out there near Boulder Dam. They were camped all along the banks
of the river up and down wherever they could get a place to light, in
the hope that they were going to be employed on that vast project.
When the T. V. A. opened in 1933 and 1934 and got underway in
the Tennessee Valley, I know they had 165,000 applications for jobs,
I do know that there were literally thousands that went up and down
that valley, hoping that they would obtain the opportunity to work,
in spite of the fact that the law itself and the newspapers carried the
information and the T. V. A. authorities advertised it widely that
no one would be employed unless and until they had taken an exami-
nation and had been graded.
Nevertheless, thousands of people went into the valley to seek
employment. |
You made mention in the beginning that you thought the employ-
ment offices probably, both Federal and State, might serve a better
purpose in this picture than they probably have in the past; is that
correct ?
Mr. Jacoby. I am inclined to think so.
Mr. Parsons. That is what you meant in answer to my question
with respect to the fact that information concerning work oppor-
tunities or the lack of work opportunities should be more widely dis-
seminated among the public ?
Mr. Jacoby, Yes.
Mr. Parsons. Is that correct?
Mr. Jacoby. Yes.
EFFECT OF MIGRATION AND RELIEF LOAD
Mr. Parsons. In what way do you think the prevailing level of
relief itself affects migration? What has been the picture here, for
instance, in Illinois with reference to the generosity of the city of
Chicago and State of Illinois in connection with the relief picture, in
inviting migration to Illinois?
Mr. Jacoby. Well, there have been a great many statements made
that a tremendous number of people have come into Illinois because
we pay around $60 a month for a four-person family with no in-
come, whereas the same family perhaps gets $5 or $10 in Mississippi,
Arkansas, or some other State.
g2g INTERSTATE MIGRATION
* However, our studies do not bear out that belief. In the fall of
1939 the Relief Commission made a careful survey of the resident
status of about 150,000 cases in the State. We found that only 6,000
cases out of 150,000, or about 4 percent, had resided less than 3 years
in the community where thev were found, and less than 2,000 families,
or about liA percent of all of our relief load, had resided m the
State le,ss than 3 years, which to me were very surprisingly low
jBgaires. ,. , i p .• ^
In other Avords, they tend to indicate that the fraction of our case
load that has come in recently is very, very small. -wo
Mr. Parsons. That was before the settlement time was raised to 6
years?
^Ir. Jacoby. That was just at about the same time.
Mr Parsons. But this sun^ey was taken upon those that had been
on relief, probably, for several years, or at least for a year or more^
Mr. Jacoby. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. That was all at that time ?
Mr. Jacoby. Yes. .
Mr. Parsons. That was taken before there was any change m the
settlement law?
Mr. Jacoby. Yes.
Mr Parsons. You do not think that more relief here than there
may be in surrounding States, or in other States, has invited any
appreciable amount of migrants to the State ?
Mr Jacoby I think it has been one factor that has accounted lor
some cases, but I think the importance of the factor has been gi-eatly
overestimated in public opinion. Our studies seem to bear that
idea out. • • /» j.-
Mr Parsons. In that study, did you try to ascertain information
to show to what States former residents of Illinois have migrated
after having become destitute?
Mr Jacoby. We have made an analysis of correspondence which
comes to the Relief Commission from relief administrators m other
States, and that is forwarded to relief administrators m other States.
That correspondence has to do mainlv with Illinois residents who
leave the State and who are now found in Los Angeles, New York,
and other centers, in destitute condition. If we can regard the vol-
ume of correspondence as being indicative of the places where I inois
residents are now found, it would seem that the majority ot Illinois
people who are now destitute and have gone to other States are found
in California first. New York second, and in the other States border-
ing on Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky and Wisconsin. Most ot
the people appear to have gone to the larger cities m those States.
This does not mean a movement from Illinois to farms or rural
areas but a movement from Illinois into larger cities, Los Angeles
and New York City, notably. Of course, we do not have the other
side of the picture as to just where the people come from who are
now in Illinois in a destitute condition. .
Mr. Parsons. That is the point. No doubt there is an appreciable
number.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 827
Mr. Jacobt. We think so.
Mr. Parsons. INIuch larger tlum those who have left Illinois ?
Mr. Jacx)by. Yes.
RELIEF administration IN ILLINOIS
Mr. Parsons. I think the committee here, Mr. Jacoby, might be
interested in your explaining briefly how our relief problem is
handled in Illinois, how it is financed", and how it is administered —
the rates and things of that nature.
Mr. Jacoby. Well, we have a joint State and local method of dealing
with the relief problems in this State. First, with regard to admin-
istration, the direct responsibility for administering relief is in the
hands of local authorities, some 1,455 different local governmental units
including the city of Chicago and the IT counties which are under
commission form of organization, and the rest of them are townships.
They have the responsibility for actually disbursing relief. They
are supervised by the State commission, w^iich, according to the law,
is required to make regulations as to how relief shall be disbursed.
Unfortunately, the activities of the commission in supervision have
been pretty strictly limited by the appropriation under which we
operate. We get $100,000 a year to supervise administration in all
of these 1,455 units. We have done the best we can with the funds
that are available. We have prescribed accounting standards. We
insist that the local overseer of the poor, while he sets up his own
standards on the ground, apply them uniformly.
As to financing, any local authority, either township or county, that
wants to get State funds must qualify by making a 30-cent levy per
$100 of property valuation. Any local authority levying less than
that amount does not qualify for aid. Out of the 1,455 units which
might conceivably qualify, only 550, or 3G percent of them, actually
do qualify and get aid. The others have such low case loads that they
can get along without State funds. The State then grants money in
proportion to the needs of these localities after they have spent their
local money.
In the year 1939, just to give you some idea of the proportion, there
were spent $67,000,000 on relief 'in Illinois. Of that $67,000,000 spent,
about $18,500,000, or 27 percent, came from the local governments and
this 30-cent property tax. The other 73 percent came from State
funds. So you see, the State foots about three-quarters of the bill.
Mr. Parsons. The State raises its money by a sales tax?
Mr. Jacoby. That is what it boils down' to, principally; principally
the sales tax.
Mr. Parsons. Substantially, wdiere we have a 3 percent sales tax
in the State, approximately 1 cent, or one-third of that levy, goes to
relief, for relief purposes?
Mr. Jacoby. One-third goes directly to relief. Congressman Parsons.
The rest of it goes into the general revenue fund, but the law says
that there shall be appropriated money for relief out of the general
revenue fund again. So you see, in practice, relief gets more than
1 cent. It just goes through a different route to get to relief.
§2g INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Parsons. Do you think yon are operating to best efficiency
with so many local relief aoencies handling the problem, or would it
be more economical and more satisfactory if it was handled by a cen-
tral agency, for instance, the State, your State commission?
Mr. Jacoby. Well, the Illinois Emerjrency Relief Commission has
recommended in reports to Governor Horner and to the general as-
sembly repeatedly that relief could be administered more effectively
by fewer units. Frankly, we cannot adequately and accurately super-
vise 1,455 different local administrators. "We might and I think we
would do a much better job if we limited it to, say, 102 counties.
We have 102 counties in the State. I think it would be much better if
we dealt with 102 local administrators rather than 14 times that many.
Mr. Parsons. Of course, in the counties of the State, under what
we call the commission form of free county commissions, that con-
stitutes just one unit ?
Mr. Jacobt. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. It happens that about six or seven of these counties
are in my congressional district, and of course it is easily controlled
and administered in the county unit. Do you see any hope that you
are going to get rid of that problem in the near future?
Mr. Jacoby. Well, while there is life, there is hope. I do not
think it is going to be done soon. There are some difficult problems
that prevent our using the county unit. As you know, we have a
State constitution that limits the county tax rate to 75 cents. A good
many of the counties are at or near that limit now without having to
levy anything for relief, so if you transferred the burden of the
financing to the county, that tax rate limit would operate to prevent
them from getting enough funds in many cases. That is an obstacle
that wouM have to be overcome.
]\Ir. Parsons. Before 1932, under Governor Emmerson's adminis-
tration, relief was set up, I believe, in February 1932?
Mr. Jacoby. Under the State commission.
Mr. Parsons. That commission has been in existence and life has
been extended to it ever since that time?
Mr. Jacoby. May I interrupt, Congressman ?
Mr. Parsons. Yes.
Mr. Jacoby. To complete the story, up to 1932 relief in Illinois,
as in most other States, was a local function wholly. The State had
nothing to do with it either financially or administratively.
Mr. Parsons. It was handled purely by the local overseers.
Mr. Jacoby. It was handled purely by the local overseer of the poor.
He was the local officer who did the job. Then in 1932, with increas-
ing unemployment, the State commission was created. It took the
whole thing over, with Federal funds. The State commission actu-
ally administered relief and financed it nearly 100 percent until 1936.
Then the legislature returned the function of administration back to
the local authorities again and merely left the commission as a super-
vising agency to allocate these State funds.
Mr. Parsons. Did you have an opportunity to make any observa-
tions just prior to February 1932 and during the 2 years following
that — we know you were not connected with the commission at that
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 829
time, but did you have an opportunity to make any observations
regarding the situation prior to the creation of this commission ? Was
there a lot of suffering in the State and in the city ?
Mr. Jacoby. There was. I know that of my own knowledge. I
was a resident of Chicago at the time. I think the act creating the
commission in 1932 was eminently desirable and necessary.
Mr. Pajrsons. Now you say you have ^o many different local
agencies ; are there varying rates of relief at various local units, town-
ships, and counties?
Mr. Jacoby. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. For instance, you have perhaps a dozen units in one
county.
Mr. Jacoby. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. Do they give the same amount of relief per person
per capita in that county 'i
Mr. Jacoby. No, sir.
Mr. Parsons. Will you elaborate on that just a little, Mr. Jacoby?
Mr. Jacoby. Yes. There is a great divergence both as between
townships within a county and as between townships in different parts
of the State. I have appended to the statement I submitted some
figures showing relief granted to a four-person family with no in-
come in 22 of the largest relief units of the State.
Mr. Parsons. Yes.
Mr. Jacoby. It will be noticed there that the monthly relief grant,
or, to be more accurate, the value of monthly relief can vary from
about $17.50 for this family in one of the southern townships to
something over $60 in Downers Grove, DuPage County, which is
right to the west of Chicago. That gives you some idea of the
variation.
Mr. Parsons. Has that tended to make migration within the State
from county to county where they pay higher rates of relief ? Have
you made any studies on that?
Mr. Jacoby. That is very hard to say. Frankly, I do not think
we can answer the question definitely, although this review of our
case load that we made in the fall of 1939 that I mentioned pre-
viously indicated that less than one-half of 1 percent of the cases on
relief in the fall of 1939 had resided in the locality in which they
were found for less than a year. That is, a very small fraction of
them had not been in the community for at least a year.
Mr. Parsons. You have studied this problem a great deal. You
know the purpose of this committee is to get the facts. We do not
have the answer yet. There is not just one single answer to this
problem.
Mr. Jacoby. I appreciate that.
Mr. Parsons. It is a large problem, and perhaps requires a large
number of solutions to different parts of the problem.
recom mendations
You have given a great deal of study and attention to it. Wliat
recommendation would you make, if the Federal Government stepped
330 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
into the picture? Have you any helpful suggestions you can offer
to the committee in outlining legislation to aid and assist in this
problem, and to help to cure it?
Mr. Jacobt. AVell, from what I know of it, Congressman Parsons,
I think that legislation along two lines would be desirable. One of
them I have already mentioned. That is some program that would
make the Federal Employment Agency more effective in advising
people about facts concerning employment opportunities so that, for
instance, if a thousand jobs picking fruit should open up in one of
the Southern States, there will not be an influx of thousands of
people there, each acting because he does not know other people are
moving there.
I think the Social Security Board, which is now supervising the
Federal Employment Service, could develop its functions and be
much more effective to make migration more intelligent and better
informed. That is one line.
The other program that seems to me to be desirable would be for
the Federal Government to pay for relief extended to people that
do not have resident status. The reason for making that suggestion
is not simply to unload the State of Illinois' financial Inirden. We
have a heavy financial burden which, I think, is best illustrated by
the fact that the State has never been able to put up 100 percent of
the net relief needs. We have not been able to pay that for at
least 3 years, and perhaps never will be able to, to my knowledge.
We have a financial burden, and all of us would be anxious to shift
it. However, I am not making the suggestion merely for that reason.
It seems to me the main reason that would support that would be
that if the Federal Government had paid relief to destitute people,
it would cause the States to modify these unduly restrictive residence
requirements that are slowly being built up as barriers to migration.
I might suggest in that connection that perhaps the grant made by
the Federal Government to pay for relief might be made conditional
on the State revising its residence law to some desirable limit. You
suggest a year. I am inclined to think you are probably right on
that. Perhaps they should be made uniformly 1 year.
Mr. Parsons. You would not abandon them altogether?
Mr. Jacobt. I think not. I think that is probably the most effec-
tive way of working toward reasonable resident requirements, uni-
form resident requirements.
Mr. Parsons. That is the only way, of course, Congress could
touch the matter.
Mr. Jacobt. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. That would be to make a condition for obtaining a
grant-in-aid by the States.
Mr. Jacobt. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. May I ask a question right there ?
Mr. Parsons. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Would you include, in that, some attention given to
the basic imderlying causes of mass exodus from a given area?
Mr. Jacobt. I am not sure I just understand your question.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 831
Mr. Curtis. For instance, I come from a droujilit area, the dust
bowl of Nebraska. We have lost a great many people there.
Mr. Jacoby. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Those people who have gone away have not gone
away of their own free wall. They wonld rather stay there where
they have spent their lives, and where their families and friends are.
Wlien they leave, they become California's problem, or Chicago's
problem, or some other city's problem. It occnrs to me that rather
than bigger and better migrant camps at their destination alone, we
shonld also give some attention to what could be done to relieve the
condition making their migration necessarv. Do you agree with
that ?
Mr. Jacoby. That is, to have the Federal Government pay for
relief extended to those people where they are, before they have
migrated?
Mr. Curtis. Not necessarily on a relief basis. What I had in mind
was having the Department of Agriculture, Bureau of Reclamation
and other agencies direct their attention to bettering their economic
condition to make them self-sustaining where they are.
Mr. Jacoby. Well, my general feeling about that, sir, would be this :
That it is a bad thing to interfere too much with people's desire to
move. The first step in an intelligent policy, it seems to me, is to
inform them as to where they can move most expeditiously and
where they are most likely to get a job. Then, I think you ought
to leave them free to move, and if they cannot find self-support,
make arrangements to maintain them.
A man should not be deterred from moving by fear that he will
not be able to get relief in case he is unfortunate elsewhere. I am
afraid that if we went too far to settle peonle and make their condi-
tions satisfactory in an area which, for one reason or another cannot
support a large population, you may start to freeze the population
just as those residence laws are starting to freeze the population.
Mr. Curtis. I agree with you that we should not do it by com-
pulsion, or even make financial inducements for people to stay where
the economics of the territory cannot support them,
Mr. Jacoby. Yes.
]Mr. Curtis. Perhaps I should be a little more specific. If a cer-
tain area is losing its farm population because they cannot make a
go of it and they are drifting away, and you find that with Federal
assistance, say, with fertilizer over a period of 5 or 10 years, you
could improve that soil so people could be self-sustaining-^not re-
quiring them to stay there, but creating a situation in which they
would want to stay there — clo you feel we should give some attention
to that sort of thing?
Mr. Jacoby. That particular phase of it, I think, is perfectly satis-
factory. What you are doing in effect is not telling a man, "We are
going "to give you what is, in effect, a Government subsidy to stay
here," but instead, telling him, "We are willing to help you far more
effectively by making your tenure on this land more secure by apply-
ing better knowdedire and skill to the farming of it."
Mr. Curtis. Yes.
832 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Jacoby. That particular phase is perfectly satisfactory.
iNIr. Curtis. Likewise, that same theory applies to the territory
from which I come, Nebraska, where there has been extreme drouoht.
I feel the Congress of the United States must realize that a million
dollars spent in the State of Nebraska on irrigation is solving a prob-
lem by preventing for all time those people from moving to Chicago
or California seeking jobs that do not exist, and eventually, perhaps,
getting on relief.
Mr. Jacoby. I think that is highly possible. You would have, I
think, to examine each project on its merits, and if you can economi-
cally spend a million dollars to create conditions that will keep people
there, self-supporting, then it is a wise thing to do it,
Mr. Cnrns. We just returned from some hearings at Montgomery,
Ala. AYe found that a large percentage of the homeless people
who had to get out and go, within the State or interstate, were forced
directly off of the soil. They were farmers. I believe you said that
in 150.000 cases examined, about 4 percent, or 6,000, of those people
had not come from that immediate locality?
Mr. Jacoby. They had less than 3 years' residence in the district
where they were found.
Mr. Curtis. They were on relief?
Mr. Jacoby. They were on relief,
Mr. Curtis. Was any investigation made as lO that 6,000, as to
where they had come from?
]Mr. Jacoby. No, sir.
]\Ir. Curtis. Were they farmers or city dwellers, unemployed wage
earners, or do you have any analysis of that?
]Mr. Jacoby. We do not. I am sorry, but we do not.
INlr. Curtis. I have no further questions. I emphatically agree
with the gentlemen that we should place no restraint on migration.
I think it is a very, very fundamental American right that an indi-
vidual of any age might go where his hopes and ambitions will carry
him.
Mr. Jacoby. I am glad to hear you say that.
Mr. Curtis. Sometimes he will fool the Government relief agencies
and make good where no one else can.
The Chairmax. Mr. Jacoby, I have just a question or two, and then
we will have finished.
jNIr. Jacoby. Yes.
The Chairman. The figures indicate that approximately 4,000,000
people annually go from State to State; 850,000 have gone to Califor-
nia during the last 5 years. I take it that along with tlie mayor's
idea, you can readily appreciate that it is a national problem.
Mr. Jacoby. That is correct.
The Chairman. With respect to the people going into California, a
check was made of them, and they were nearly all American citizens,
good citizens. We are not concerned with the hobo and perennial
tramp. However, there is an average of 4,000,000 people who travel
that "way, and after they get to the State of destination, they are
homeless and Stateless. Do you not think, Mr. Jacoby, it strikes
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 833
right at the morale of our people, and do you not think, therefore,
it is a national problem?
Mr. Jacoby. Yes; I think definitely that it is. You are right on
^The Chairman. In other words, if 850,000 people from Ohio moved
into the State of Illinois on account of an earthquake or something
else of that kind, the Federal Government would convene, or I think
Congress would convene, a special session to take care of that ; don t
jou see?
Mr, Jacobt. Yes.
The Chairman. In other words, the Federal Government is not
going to get along very well if California goes broke and Illinois
^oes broke. That is not going to help the Federal Government any.
Mr. Jacoby. Not at all.
The Chairman. Also, along the line you indicate m there about
information, the committee's attention has been attracted to that
proposition. There has been misinformation given by private em-
ployment agencies who take their money and then send them into a
State where there is no employment.
Mr. Jacoby. Most of the evil, it seems to me, is not lack of accurate
information, but the dissemination of misinformation.
The Chairman. This committee undoubtedly will have jurisdiction
over that question, and can recommend legislation to take care of pri-
vate employment agencies who take their money and send them across
State lines. We are in that picture all right. As has been pointed
out here, there is no single answer. As you continue to study this
problem, it becomes gigantic in its scope.
Mr. Jacoby. Yes.
The Chairman. You have the health problem and the education
problem. There are approximately 300,000 on the road every day,
camping along the ditches, in misery, just living the best way they can.
As you have pointed out, we have been very careful to fix statutes on
every commodity that moves from one State to another, but we have
not fixed any statutes yet for the human commodity.
Mr. Jacoby. No.
The Chairman. Wliich is the most important.
Mr. Jacoby. That is right. It is the most important.
The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Jacoby, very much, for a very en-
lightening statement. You have made a very fine contribution to
our record. The statement whicli you have submitted will be received
and the balance of it will be printed.
Thank you very much, Mr. Jacoby.
(Whereupon, Mr. Jacoby was excused.)
Statement by Neil H. Jacoby, Chairman, Illinois Emergency Relief Commis-
sion, Chicago, III/
basic considerations in INTE21STATE MIGRATION
The migration of destitute citizens appears not any less desirable than migra-
tion of self-supporting citizens, providing the former are governed by the same
^ The first QV2 pages were read into the record, see pp. 820-824.
834 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
motives as the latter and act on the best available information. Whether the
reasons differ from those of independent citizens is difficult to ascertain. To the
extent that the two groups have similar qualifications and opportunities for
employment, it may be assumed that their dominant reason is the seai'ch for
employment. To the extent that employment opportunities for the destitute are
less than those of the independent migrants, other reasons vpill play a greater
role. I am inclined to believe that such is the case.
Since the availability of higher relief grants elsewhere and the absence of
residence requirements are factors which encourage migration, even if they are
not preponderant causes, is it desirable to eliminate these factors? If a certain
community desires to maintain high relief standards for its own residents, should
it maintain them also for those who move into that community? Or should it
limit relief to those of its residents who have been associated with the community
for several years? The answer depends largely on what is considered to be the
function of relief. If relief is regarded merely as a claim upon the community
by citizens, now destitute, who have lived in that community, and have paid taxes
thereto, it might seem legitimate to refuse relief to outsiders. But this attitude
will easily become a boomerang. Other communities might be expected to do
likewise. The inevitable result of this policy would be to deter migrants from
settling in the community and to deter I'esidents of the community from migrating
elsewhere. Both types of migration might be very desirable. To prevent them
from occurring might result in grave economic loss to the Nation. Thus one
cannot escape the conclusion that relief has a function other than the support
of residents of long standing. Highly restrictive residence laws damage the State
and the Nation.
To pass to the other extreme, one may ask whether a community should stand
ready to provide relief to all who come within its fold and should abolish all
deterring factors such as residence requirements. So long as migration is con-
sidered desirable, this would seem to be a logical policy. Yet, here the vexing
problem of variation in relief standards enters into the discussion. Not only
the availability of relief, but also the level of relief grants serves as an induce-
ment or as a deterrent to migration. One must face the further question of the
desirability of equalizing relief standards throughout the country.
A great many factors enter into the determination of the appropriate standard
of relief for a community. Assuming that high relief standards encourage, and
that low relief standards deter, migration into a community, from a strictly
economic point of view an appropriate relief standard would seem to be that
which encouraged sufficient migration to provide the necessary labor supply for
a community ; that is, should a shortage of labor exist, relief standards might
be increased to encourage migration into the community. When an oversupply
of labor exists, and the relief rolls become crowded, relief standards might be
lowered to encourage migration elsewhere. Communities do, in fact, partly
compete for labor through relief standards, inasmuch as the relief standard is
one of the services offered by the community and therefore a factor considered
by the migrant.
It should again be emphasized that relative relief standards are only one of
the factors affecting decisions to migrate and that other factors may well be
more important. This statement has been concerned only with the relationship
of relief to migration. Furthermore. I have laid emphasis on the economic
aspects of relief and migration. It may very well be that other factors weigh
more heavily in decisions of many migrants than do the economic aspects.
People often move merely because of boredom, desire for change, to make new
acquaintances, etc.
One other aspect of the migrancy problem deserves consideration, and that
is the method of financing relief to destitute migrants. Under a federal govern-
ment, such as our own, this presents a difficult problem. It requires a con-
sideration of the fiscal structure of the Federal, State, and local governmental
units, a subject much too broad to enter into here. I wish to point to only
two of the major fiscal problems involved. In the first place, coordination of
our Federal, S*^ate. and local fiscal structures is necessary, not only to provide
for equitable sharing of tax burdens but also to provide sufficient funds to
governmental units to carry on all their functions efficiently, including that
of relief to destitute citizens. To name all of the obstacles to such coordination
would, of course, require a review of the whole subject of public finance. In
INTERSTATE MIGRATION §35
the second place, the fiuancial resources of one level of goverunient can and
should on occasion be transferred to another level of government where such
policy is desirable. The two common devices to accomplish this end, as you
are aware, are grants-in-aid and tax sharing.
In the light of the existing fiscal structure of Federal, State, and local gov-
ernments, and the present divisioy of responsibilities for performing govern-
mental functions, what may be .said concerning the financing of relief given
to destitute migrants V Since Federal-State relations are the subject of this
hearing, I shall omit reference to State-local relations. As between the Federal
and State Governments it seems clear that most of the States are in no position
to finance their present relief loads through equitable personal taxes. Many have
been forced, through constitutional or practical limitations, to adopt sales taxes
which lay a heavy burden on the poor. This is true of Illinois. The Federal
Government must take the lead in providing better coordination of the national
fiscal structure, and with its greater taxing powers and credit resources provide
adequate funds from equitable revenue sources for the efficient performance
of governmental functions.
As long as the Spates are hard pressed to meet their present burden of
relief — and this can certainly be demonstrated for Illinois — it seems futile to
expect them to abolish residence requirements, however desirable this may be
on theoretical grounds. They may be expected to take a narrower view of the
function of relief, and endeavor to confine it to their own citizens in an attempt
to reduce the financial burden. But this obstructs desirable migration. As a
first and immediate step in dealing with the problem, it, therefore, appears
desirable that the Federal Government should assume the financial respon-
sibility of extending relief to destitute migrants. By relieving the State of
this financial burden the step would eliminate the hindrance to migration caused
by unduly restrictive S.'ate residence requirements. With the Federal Gov-
ernment bearing the burden of relief to destitute migrants, the States might
be more willing to eliminate or modify residence requirements, since this action
would result in no added cost to them.
One precaution may be noted in the assumption of the burden of relief to
migrants by the Federal Government. The Fedei-al Government should not
attempt to establish special standards of relief for migrants, but should gen-
erally require that these standards be identical with those for local citizens
receiving relief. This would eliminate the possibility of a dual set of standards
existing in the State,^ and influence on the part of the Federal Government in
the establishment of local relief standards. The latter should not be attempted
directly, in my opinion. Final determination of relief standards should be
a local responsibility.
Variations in relief standards would, then, serve as the only aspect of relief
encouraging or deterring migration. This may not appear to be a satisfactory
condition, but I am imable to suggest any change that would not be worse.
in. SOME FACTS CONCBIiNING INTE3tSTATE MIGRATION OF DESTITUTE CITIZENS
PERTAINING TO ILLINOIS
So far I have endeavored to state some fundamental considerations in the rela-
tionship between relief and migration, only because these aspects of the problem
are often disregarded. I now wish to lay before this committee certain facts
pertaining to this subject and relating to our experience in Illinois. First, I
wish to review briefly the pertinent provisions of Illinois relief laws, and then
pi-esent some factual material contained in studies of this subject in Illinois.
(0 Illinois laws pertaining to destitute migrants. — Prior to 1932, Illinois
statutes provided that any person having residence in the State could I'eceive
relief from any local relief unit, but the relief thus granted was to be charged
to the local governmental unit in which that person had residence one year
prior to his application. Residence was defined in the law, as "the actual resi-
dence of the party, or the place where he was employed, or in case he was in
1 The State of Mas.saohusetts appears to have had some very unsatisfactory experience
with a dual .set of standards of this nature. Cf. Commonwealth of Massachusetts. House
Doc. No. 1702 (January 24, 1938), p. 140.
836
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
no employment, then it shall be considered and held to be the place where he
made it his home." ^ This definition was in the laws of Illinois since 1841 and
was interpreted by the supreme court of the State in numerous decisions. In
some local units these provisions were misunderstood by local overseers of the
poor, or they were not adhered to for other reasons, but they provided a fairly
definite method of dealing with nonresidents.
In February of 1932 the Illinois Emergency Relief Commission was created
and took over from local governments the task of administering aid to the
increasing unemployment-relief load. From August 1933 until September 1935
nonresidents and interstate transients in Illinois were cared for by a Federal
transient program operated by the Illinois Emergency Relief Commission under
the Federal Emergency Relief Appropriation Act of May 1933. Biennial re-
ports of the commission contain adequate descriptions of the activities of this
unit.* Federal grants for transients were terminated in November 1935 and
the Illinois Service Bureau for Transients was then closed. The Federal Emer-
gency Relief Administrator, however, authorized the Illinois Emergency Relief
Commission to extend relief to transients under its regular program out of
remaining balances of Federal funds.
When the W. P. A. got under way in 1935, most of the transient camps that
had been organized by the Illinois Emergency Relief Commission were trans-
ferred to the W. P. A. and were operated as work projects. A number of
transients were transferred to regular W. P. A. projects. During the spring
•of 1937 most of the Illinois Emergency Relief Commission transient camps were
closed, and the W. P. A. discontinued the transient camps and transferred the
transients to other W. P. A. projects.
On July 1, 1936, the responsibility for the administration of relief was trans-
ferred by the General Assembly of Illinois from the Illinois Emergency Relief
Commission to 1,454 (now 1,455) townships and counties. The Illinois Emergency
Relief Commission retained the responsibility of allocating State relief funds, of
certifying persons for Federal services, and of supervising local relief administra-
tion. Nonresident recipients of unemployment relief once more came under the
residence provisions of the Illinois pauper law mentioned above.
In July 1939 the Illinois pauper law was amended, and the pi'ovisions with
respect to nonresidents were materially changed. Thereafter, relief was to be
denied any person who did not reside in the local unit where application was
made "for a period of 3 years immediately preceding" his application for relief.
If the applicant did reside in some other local unit ih the State for this 3-year
period, the latter unit in which the applicant did have residence was required
to remove the applicant and to pay for relief extended. The definition of "resi-
dence" was changed to mean the unit "in which a person has made his permanent
home for a continuous period of 3 years, preceding his becoming chargeable as a
pauper." Local governments were specifically permitted to use relief funds to
pay the expense of transporting paupers to the place of their residence in other
States.
The attorney general of Illinois has rendered an opinion in which he recognized
that this amendatory act was a wide departure from the previous "policy of the
State of Illinois to diminish as much as possible the number of unsettled paupers
and to assign to as many as possible a legal settlement, because to do so is con-
ducive to the good order of society." * He held that "no one has a legal settlement
liable for his support as a pauper except he who has resided continuously in one
unit for 3 years or more, the only exception being one who, after having resided
in such unit continuously for 3 years or more, removes to another unit and there-
upon immediately makes application for relief under the pauper act." He also
held, however, that this amendatoi-y act is not retroactive and does not affect those
who were already on relief at the time the act went into effect on July 26. 1939.
(ii) Residence status of persons on Illinois relief rolls in 19S9. — While there are
no accurate data available on the number of persons in the State who have been
2 Smith Hurd Revised Statutes of Illinois, ch. 107. sec. 17.
s See Illinois Emergency Relief Commission. First Annual Report for the Year Ending
Fehru.nrv 5, Ifl.S.S ; Seconal Annual Report Covering the Period February 6, 1933, Through
June 30." 1034: Biennial Report, Covering the Period .Tnly 1, 1934, Through June 30. 1936.
* Opinion of the Attorney General of Illinois to the Illinois Emergency Relief Commission,
August 15, 1939.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 837
affected by the recent lUiuois residence law, studies conducted by the Illinois
Emergency Relief Commission do indicate the residence status of those who were
on the relief rolls at about the time this law went into effect.
A review of all the cases on relief in Illinois in the fall of 1939 revealed that
almost 6,000 families and individuals, or about 4 percent of all those on the relief
rolls at the time, had continuous residence for less than 3 years in the local unit in
which they received relief. About 20 percent of the.se, or about 1,000 cases, were
Negroes. Cook County had only 35 percent of the cases with less than 3 years'
residence in the local unit in which they were receiving relief, and almost 80
percent in this Cook County group were Negroes. One-third of the cases with less
than 8 years' continuous residence in the local unit in which they were receiving
relief, or about 2,000 families and individuals, had less than 3 years' continuous
residence in the State. These 2,000 families and individuals would definitely not
be eligible for relief in Illinois had they applied after the new act went into effect.
The remaining 4,000 cases, lacking 3 years of continuous residence in the local
units in which they were receiving relief, would also be ineligible for relief under
the new law if they applied after the act went into effect, unless they could show
that they had resided continuously in some other local unit for 3 years immediately
preceding their application for relief. Table 1 summarizes the facts.
It is difficult to determine statistically what has been or will be the effect
of the recent Illinois 3-year residence law. It can certainly be said that many
cases eligible under the former law would no longer be eligible under the present .
law. It is a reasonable assumption that the new law is resulting in the migra-
tion of some persons to other States without full knowledge of the economic
desirability of such migration ; that it is preventing many persons who are truly
in need from receiving public relief; and that it is taxing the resources of
private charities. That the new residence law is unsatisfactory cannot be
denied. In my opinion, the test of eligibility for relief which it sets up is
arbitrary and much too restrictive. It even deprives persons who have resided
in Illinois for many years of the benefits of public aid.
{Hi) Analysis of interrelief agency correspondence forwarded hy the Illinois
Emergency Relief Commission. — One source of information in the volume of
migration of destitute citizens Is correspondence among public agencies con-
cerning nonresidence. The Uniform Transfer of Dependents Act, or the trans-
portation agreement, as it is commonly known, initiated by the American Public
Welfare Association in 1931, aimed to achieve uniformity of treatment of desti-
tute migrants. Other witneses will, no doubt, discuss this agreement at length.
The States signatory to this agreement bound themselves to make a reasonable
effort, before transporting a migrant out of a State, to secure accurate and
trustworthy evidence that he would benefit by a transfer and that he would be
able to maintain himself or would be properly chargeable to a relief agency be-
cause of legal residence. The Illinois Emergency Relief Commission has func-
tioned as the agency through which much correspondence has been forwarded
from other States to local Illinois administrators. The correspondence of local
Illinois administrators concerning destitute migrants from other States and now
in' Illinois does not pass through the hands of the Illinois Emergency Relief
Commission, so that it is unfortunately impossible to compare the data on
destitute migrants from other States into Illinois with that on destitute Illinois
migrants who have gone to other States. Also, this correspondence fails to
include inquiries which went directly to other public agencies eligible to serve
as correspondents.
A study of this interagency correspondence forwarded by the Illinois Emer-
gency Relief Commission during 1938 does reveal some pertinent facts. During
the year 1938 almost 2,800 inquiries were received. Table 2 accompanying shows
the cities and States from which the major number of inquiries were received.
More than three-fourths of these inquiries came from outside the State of
Illinois. More inquiries came from California than from any other State, and
the city of Los Angeles agencies made half of the California inquiries. New York
ranked second to California, and most of the New York State inquiries came from
New York City. Most of the other inquiries came from States bordering upon
Illinois, Michigan, Iowa, Missouri, Wisconsin, and Indiana.
The purposes of inquiry are listed in table 3. While a majority of these
inquiries did not concern requests for authorization to return to Illinois, the
I
338 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
other purposes of inquiry may subsequently have led to requests for such author-
ization. In any case, requests for autliorization to return destitute persons to
Illinois comprised more than one-third of all requests. California made the
largest number of requests for authorization to return. The number of inquiries
made by each State and the purposes of these inquiries are listed in table 4.
These data indicate that destitute Illinois citizens are found in large num-
bers in California, New York, and the States bordering on Illinois, and that
most of them have migrated to the largest cities in these States. Unfortunately,
this information in movement out of Illinois cannot be matched by data showing
the status of destitute migrants from other States who have come into Illinois.
Some information on the latter subject will be presented before this committee
by representatives of the city of Chicago.
(iv) Financial arrangements governing relief in Illinois. — Arrangements for
financing general relief in Illinois have a bearing upon the problem of migration
by destitute citizens. Relief is jointly financed by the State and local govern-
mental units in Illinois. Local units administering relief are required to make a
30-cent levy per $100 of assessed valuation of property for relief purposes in order
to establish eligibility to receive State relief funds. This 30-cent levy is the legal
maximum which the local units can raise for relief purposes. All other funds are
derived from State grants. During the calendar year 1939 a total of $67,022,222
of obligations were incurred against public funds for relief in Illinois. Of this
amount, $18,589,572, or 27.4 percent, was committed against local funds, and nearly
all of the remaining $48,388,592, or 72.2 percent, against State funds. In the case
of the city of Chicago the fraction of total obligations incurred out of State funds
was even greater than for the State at large. Total obligations amounted to
$37,498,647, of which State funds supplied $32,717,353, or 87.2 percent, and city
funds supplied $4,781,294, or 12.8 percent. Only about 36 percent of the 1,455 local
relief-administering units in Illinois actually qualified to receive State relief
funds, the majority having small case loads. The financial burden of relief
granted to residents as well as nonresidents therefore falls mainly on the State
governments.
It has sometimes been claimed that local officials have an inducement to be
lenient with nonresidents and to give them relief, since costs would be paid mainly
out of the State appropriation for relief. There is little or no evidence to substan-
tiate this claim. In the review of the relief cases in Illinois, referred to above,
only 724 families and individuals, or only one-half of 1 percent of a total of almost
150,000 cases, had less than 1 year of continuous residence in the local unit in
which they received relief. To what extent the presence of this number of non-
residents indicated leniency and to what extent oversight or merely error in
reporting is hard to determine. In any event the figures do not reveal any
tendency toward leniency on the part of local relief officials, even if an inducement
can be said to exist.
(v). Illinois Emergency Relief Commission study in Alexander County, III. — A
recent study conducted by the Illinois Emergency Relief Commission in Alex-
ander County, at the southern extremity of Illinois, is of interest. Owing to .a
disruption of the relief administration of that county. State funds were withheld
from it, and relief therein was virtually discontinued from February 1940 until
April 1940. It was reported by certain observers that from 30 to 50 percent of
those who had previously been on Alexander County relief roll emigrated from
the county upon the discontinuation of relief, principally to the neighboring States
of Kentucky, Ohio, and Missouri. In May 1940 the Illinois Emergency Relief Com-
mission made a careful investigation of relief needs in the county. Between
January 1940 and May 1940 the nimiber of families and individuals receiving relief
in Alexander County was reduced from 762 to 548, or by almost 30 percent. More
than a third of the remaining cases were found by the Illinois Emergency Relief
Commission to be ineligible for relief, so that only 353, or 46 percent of those who
were on the rolls when relief was terminated, remained eligible for relief. The
State-wide review of relief rolls (referred to previously) indicated that only 5
cases out of a total of 790 had less than 1 year of residence in Alexander County
and only 28 cases had less than 3 years of continuous residence.
While the rumors of large emigration of relief recipients to other counties or
States could not be verified, nevertheless it is difficult to account for the many
relief cases which apparently disappeared from Alexander County rolls when
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 839
relief was discontinued. Assuming that some relief cases did migrate out of the
county, presumably they moved with the hope of bettering their economic status.
Employment opportunities elsewhere, real or fictitious, undoubtedly attracted
some of them. The discontinuance of relief in Alexander County provided a
further inducement.
Some indication of the level of monthly relief allowances in Alexander County
in comparison with allowances in other Illinois localities is given in table 5.
This table shows tlie monthly value of relief authorized for a 4-person
family with no outside income during May 1940 in 22 selected Illinois townships
and counties."
Tlie range of monthly allowances in May 1940 for the same family unit was
from $17.51 in Scott County to $60.09 iu Downers Grove, Du Page County.
These figures are presented graphically on a map of Illinois, and show that allow-
ances generally increase as one moves from the southern to tlie northern part
of the State. The Alexander County allowance was second to the lowest in
the group. Did the existence of higher allowances elsewhere provide an induce-
ment to migration? If relief persons were aware of the recent 3-year residence
law, and knew that they would not be eligible to receive relief elsewhere in the
State, the higher relief standards in other areas could not have provided such
an inducement. But they may not have been aware of the new law, or they
may have expected lenient treatment from relief administrators elsewhere. All
these are possibilities.
The level of relief allowances in neighboring States is also pertinent, but
unfortunately data on a basis similar to that presented for Illinois are not
available to us.
(in) Policies adopted ty Federal relief agencies toward nonresidents. — It is
well to compare the policies adopted by Federal relief agencies in dealing with
nonresidents with those of the State of Illinois. Generally, it may be said that
the major Federal relief agencies in Illinois — the W. P. A., the C. C. C, the
N. Y. A., and the Surplus Marketing Administration (formerly the Federal
Surplus Commodities Corix>ration) — have in general welcomed the nonresident
in need of assistance on the .same basis as the resident. All of these organiza-
tions have attempted to insure against discriminatory treatment of nonresidents
by special provisions.
The W. P. A. employs persons certified by the Illinois Emergency Relief Com-
mission as in need and otlierwise eligible. In the agreement between these organ-
izations as to certification the following statement is found : "Persons otherwise
eligible shall not be refused certification because legal settlement or residence has
not been established within the State or a political subdivision thereof ; the
certifying agency shall be responsible for the certification of such persons.
However, persons who move into the State or political subdivision thereof for
the purpose of obtaining employment on W. P. A. projects shall not be eligible
for certification." "
Thus persons who are not eligible for relief because they cannot meet the
residence requirements of the State law are still eligible for W. P. A. employment.
Nonresidents employed by the W. P. A. can gain residence by relief by being
employed on a local unit for 3 yeai"s. Furthermore, the fact that W. P. A.
wage rates are higher in most cases than relief allowances for similar families
means that nonresidents assigned to the W. P. A. receive better ti'eatment than
residents who remain on the relief rolls.
Similar provisions are made by other Federal relief programs. Nonresidents
otherwise eligible are certified for C. C. C, N. Y. A., and to receive commodities
distributed by the Surplus Marketing Administration. The C. C. C. has pro-
vided for the assignment of nonresident young men to camps located in the
States of their residence, but in practice this has been difiicult to adhere to
strictly, and nonresidents have been assigned on the same basis as residents.
^ It is necessary to point out that these allowances are provided regularly. They do not
Include additional amounts provided for particular purposes as needed, such as medical
and dental care, hospitalization, special diets, medical appliances, clothing (other than
articles from sewing projects), household supplies, nursing care, clinic or school transpor-
tation, burial, moving expenses, ice, and adjustments in rental allowances in special circum-
stances. Not all of these items were available in all the 22 units, since they varied in the
items provided.
* Joint agreement between the W. P. A. of Illinois and the Illinois Emergency Relief
Commission, signed July 15, 1940.
260370— 40— pt. 3-
840
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Federal relief agencies have certainly adopted an attitude toward the non-
resident wholly different than have State relief agencies.
(vit) Summary and conclusions. — In order to draw together the major points
that appear to emerge from the foregoing discussion, I present for the considera-
tion of this committee the following conclusions :
1. Interstate migration of destitute as well as self-supporting families and
individuals is desirable, so long as the migrant acts on full knowledge of relative
employment opportunities.
2 Every effort should be made by governmental authorities to make knowledge
of employment opportunities more readily available, to improve existing sources
of information, and to prevent the dissemination of untrue or inaccurate infor-
ms. Although the availability of relief and the level of relief allowances to
migrants acts as a force in encouraging or discouraging migration, it is impossible
to say what weight it carries in the decisions of persons to migrate.
4 It is recommended that, as a first and immediate step, the Federal Govern-
ment should assume the financial responsibility of relief to destitute migrants.
By relieving the States and localities of this burden, the Federal Government
will encourage the States to eliminate or modify residence requirements that
unduly restrict migration. ,. - .
5 A study of length of residence of families and individuals on relief in
Illinois in the fall of 193,9 indicated that 6,000 cases, or only about 4 percent of
those on relief, had resided less than 3 years in the locality in which they were
receiving relief. About one-third of these families had resided less than 3 years
in the State of Illinois. This is a surprisingly small figure.
6. A study of correspondence passing through the Illinois Emergency Relief
Commission' from relief administrators outside Illinois to Illinois relief adminis-
trators indicates that destitute former residents of Illinois are now found chiefly
in California, New York, and the States bordering on Illinois. Apparently, most
of these emigrants have gone to the largest cities of these States.
7. While the State government provides about three-quarters of the funds spent
on relief in Illinois, there is no evidence of leniency on the part of local relief
administrators toward nonresident cases.
8. Monthly relief allowances vary greatly as between local governments in
Illinois, but "it is impossible to determine whether this has actually operated as a
stimulus to migration witliin the State. Data on relative relief allowances in
neighboring States on a comparable basis are not available.
9^ Public assistance agencies of the Federal Government do not discriminate
against the nonresident in Illinois, unlike the State and local agencies.
Table 1. — Number of cases on relief in Illinois with less than 3 years' residence
in local units in which they received relief by race, hy les.'i than 3 years'
residence in county, and by less than 3 years' residence in State, fall, 193&
Less than 3 years' residence in local governmental unit
County and local
Total
cases
White
and
other
Negro
Less than 3 years' residence
in county
Less than 3 years' residence
in State
Total
White
and
other
Negro
Total
White
and
other
Negro
Total State
5.771
4,625
1,146
3,333
2,306
1,027
1,926
991
935
Total Cook County
Down-State
2,015
3,756
1,069
3,556
946
200
1,431
1,902
563
1,743
868
159
1,263
663
429
562
834
101
Adams County: Quincy_
Alexander
69
28
66
12
3
16
42
22
41
8
1
14
27
12
26
1
1
H
Bond -..
13
13
4
4
Shoal Creek.-
All other units
4
9
4
9
3
1
3
1
Boone: Belvidere.
Brown
6
12
6
12
6
6
6
6
2
1
2
1
Bureau
11
11
4
4
1
1
Hall
5
6
5
1
3
1
3
.All other units
6
1
1
.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
841
Table 1 —NumUr of cases on relief in lUinois with less than S years' residence
^T\Ll^!its in\chich they received relief ly race, by ^ff/J^Zfy^r
residence in county, and by less than S years' residence in ktate, tail', li)6J—
Continued
Less than 3 years' residence in local governmental unit
County and local
Total
cases
White
and
other
Less than 3 years' residence
in county
Less than 3 years' residence
in State
Negro
Total
2
White
and
other
Negro
Total
White
and Negro
other
3
3
2
Carroll
1
1
2
1
2
1
1
1
1
Savanna
All other units
Cass
47
47
28
28
7
7
28
19
28
19
22
6
22
6
5
2
5
All other units
2 1
2
Champaign
26
23
3 13
11
2
4
2
4
10
12
4
7
12
1
4
6
Champaign City —
Cunningham
All other units
--
6
6
2
3
1
1
1
2
Christian
59
59
24
24
8
8
5
12
21
5
12
21
3
10
4
7
3
10
4
7
2
3
2
1
2
3
2
1
South Fork
All other units
21 21
Clark
25
25
9
9
2
2
6
19
6
19
4
5
4
5
1
1
1
1
Clay
7
7
3
3
1 2
2
Harter
3
4
3
4
2
1
2
1
2
2
All other units
Clinton
8
8
6
6
3
3
2
6
2
6
2
4
2
4
2
1
2
1
Coles
48
48
19
19
4
4
11
15
22
11
15
22
5
10
4
5
10
4
4
4
All other units
Cook County -
2,015
1,069
946
1,431
563
868
1,263
429
834
1,556
459
672
397
884
62
1,348
83
503
60
845
23
1,212
51
399
30
813
21
Excluding Chicago
Outside Chicago:
Berwyn --
22
10
74
15
15
15
62
26
43
43
31
13
7
50
33
22
10
33
15
15
6
62
23
43
38
31
12
7
47
33
41'
9"
--
5"
--
2
4
10
2
3
U
5
5
7
12
1
4
2
4
1
2
3
4
5
4
7
8
1
3
9'
--
--
1
3
9
1
2
9
3
2
5
7
1
3
1
1
2
3
3
1
5
3
" 8
Calumet
'6
i
Oak Park
-
Proviso
1
3
2
1
Thornton
Worth . .-
3
9
8
8
8
1
6
5
1
All other units
Crawford
36
36
5
5
2
2
7
29
7
29
1
4
1
4
1
1
1
1
All other units
—
842
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Table 1. — Number of cases on relief in Illinois with less than S years' residence
in local units in tchich they received relief by race, by less than 3 years*
residence in county, and by less than 3 years' residence in State, fall, 1939 —
Continued
Less than 3 years' residence in local governmental unit
County and local
unit
Total
cases
White
and
other
Negro
Less than 3 years' residence
in county
Less than 3 years' residence
in State
Total
White
and
other
Negro
Total
White
and
other
Negro
Cumberland
10
10
1
1
1
1
DeKalb-
15
15
10
10
3
3
De Kalb
8
4
3
8
4
3
6
1
3
6
1
3
2
2
All other units
1
1
De Witt
37
36
1
19
18
1
1
1
27
10
26
10
1
17
2
16
2
1
1
1
All other units
Douglas
26
26
17
17
2
2
1
25
1
25
1
16
1
16
All other units
2
2
Du Page
66
66
43
43
9
9
Downers Grove
22
8
14
22
22
8
14
22
15
6
8
14
15
6
8
14
5
5
York
1
3
1
3
All other units
Edgar
18
18
12
12
4
4
Paris
7
11
7
11
6
6
6
6
1
3
1
3
All other units
3
3
3
3
1
1
3
3
3
3
2
1
2
1
2
1
2
1
Fayette ..
14
14
8
8
2
2
8
6
8
6
4
4
4
4
All other units
2
2
Ford
1
1
1
1
1
1
Franklin .. .
181
181
73
73
20
20
Benton
32
26
9
30
12
15
42
15
32
26
9
30
12
15
42
15
18
6
4
13
4
9
15
4
18
6
4
13
4
9
15
4
6
3
1
6
3
1
Browning ..
Denning .
Goode .
1
5
3
1
1
5
3
1
Six Mile
Tyrone
All other units
Fulton
82
82
29
29
5
5
Canton. ..
16
13
1
52
16
13
1
52
9
7
9
7
2
2
Farmington
All other units
13
13
3
3
64
64
36
36
27
27
Equality
8
10
46
8
10
46
5
3
28
5
3
28
1
2
24
1
2
24
Shawnee -
All other units
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
843
Table l—NnmJ)er of cases (m relief in Illinois with less thanS years residence
^local units in which they received relief l>y race, Mj l^^fJ'V''.^,Z
residence in oounty, and Ixj less than 3 years' residmce in State, fall, W3i)—
Continued
Less than 3 years' residence in local governmental
unit
County and local
Total
cases
White
and
other
Negro
Less than 3 years' residence
in county
Less than 3 years' residence
in State
unit
Total
W ite
and
other
Negro
Total
White
and
other
Negro
Greene
57
57
16
16 .
3
3 .
9
10
38
9
10
38
1
5
1
5
i' "
2
i
2
White Hall
All other units
10 lU
Grundy -
9
6
3
20
11
9
9
6
3
20
-
4 A
Morris
2
11
2
All other units
1
1
Hamilton.
11
McLeansboro
All other units
11
9
5
6
5
6
1
1
Hancock
13
13
3
3
2
2
Dallas City--,-
All other units
5
8
5
8
2
1
2
1
2
2
Hardin - --
1
1
1
1
1
1
Henderson.-. ---
5
5
4
4
3
3
Oquawka
All other units
4
1
4
1
4
4
3
3
Henry
18
17
1
12
11
1
7
6
1
5
5
8
5
4
8
-.
3
3
6
3
2
6
.-
2
2
3
2
1
3
-
All other units
Iroquois
11
11
4
4
2
2
1
1
1
10
1
3
1
3
All other units
2
2
ackson
49
36
13
31
20
11
13
7
6
12
11
26
7
6
23
5
5
3
7
9
15
3
4
13
4
5
2
2
5
6
1
1
5
1
4
1
Murphysboro
All other units
Jasper
8
8
3
3
2
2
Jefferson
42
38
4
19
15
4
6
5
1
All other units.
26
16
22
16
4
14
5
10
5
4
6
5
1
Jersey.. ---
6
6
4
4
5
1
5
1
3
1
3
1
All other units
Jo Daviess...
3
3
1
1
1
1
All other units
3
3
1
1
1
1
Johnson
5
4
1
5
4
1
2
1
1
Kane
45
42
3
30
27
3
8
8
26
1
2
16
23
3
21
1
2
18
1
2
3
5
1
1
1
5
1
1
1
2
El^in
16
1
6
6
-""."'"
844
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Table 1. — Number of cases on relief in Illinois with less than 3 years' residence
in local units in which they received relief by race, by less than 3 years'
residence i7i county, and by less than 3 years' residence in State, fall, 1939 —
Continued
Less than 3 years' residence in local governmental unit
County and local
unit
Total
cases
White
and
other
Negro
Less than 3 years' residence
in county
Less than 3 years' residence
in State
Total
White
and
other
Negro
Total
White
and
other
Negro
Kankakee
44
38
6
18
14
4
3
2
1
7
13
24
7
9
22
2
4
7
7
4
4
6
3
1
1
2
1
All other units
2
Kendall
7
7
3
3
50
43
2
30
29
1
10
9
1
Galesburg City
24
12
14
22
12
14
2
16
9
5
15
9
5
1
7
2
1
6
2
1
1
All other units
Lake
148
140
8
50
43
7
26
21
5
Deerfleld
4
21
9
32
22
60
4
21
7
27
21
60
5
1
3
2
2
18
10
15
3
2
4
1
1
1
1
12
7
4
1
1
Libertvville
Shields
1
Waukegan
14
9
15
9
6
4
3
Zion - .
1
All other units
La Salle
90
87
3
23
22
1
5
5
Bruce
15
9
3
20
9
34
15
9
3
19
9
32
3
3
1
12
3
7
1
12
3
6
Ottawa... ---
-.
1
1
1
1
Peru
Lawrence
43
43
21
21
6
6
Denison
5
19
19
5
19
19
3
11
7
3
11
7
1
4
1
1
4
1
Lawrence...
All other units
Livingston.
17
17
9
9
2
2
4
6
7
4
6
7
2
2
5
2
2
5
Pontiac. _
1
1
1
1
All other units
Logan
51
50
1
9
8
1
2
2
20
20
11
19
20
11
1
4
1
4
3
1
4
1
All other units
2
2
McDonough
37
37
15
15
4
4
Bushnell
10
20
7
11
10
20
7
2
9
4
2
9
4
Macomb City.
4
4
,
■McHenry
11
5
5
2
2
Dorr.
7
4
7
4
3
2
3
2
1
1
1
1
All other units
McLean
138
134
4
33
31
2
10
10
Bloomington City. -
Empire
49
6
19
64
45
6
19
64
4
20
18
2
7
7
2
11
2
11
All other units
3
3
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
845
Table l—mimher of cases on relief in Illinois with less than S years' residence
in local units in which they received relief lij race, 0/ less than 3 years'
residence in comity, and hy less than 3 years' residence in State, fall, UdV—
Continued
Less than 3 years' residence in local governmental unit
County and local
unit
Total
cases
White
and
other
Negro
Less than 3 years' residence
in county
Less than 3 years' residence
in State
Total
White
and
other
Negro
Total
White
and
other
Negro
Macon
64
61
3
26
23
3
8
6
2
32
32
29
32
3
22
19
3
7
1
5
1
2
All other units
4 4 1
Macoupin
90
90
35
35
11
11
Cahokia
3
8
6
12
5
8
17
31
3
8
6
12
5
8
17
31
1
2
4
5
2
2
4
15
1
2
4
5
2
2
4
15
1
1
Carlinville.
1
2
1
1
5
1
2
1
1
5
Mount Olive
All other units
Madison
139
128
11
64
54
10
35
8
6
1
2
2
11
3
2
27
8
Alton
16
6
4
9
18
31
35
20
11
5
4
9
18
26
35
20
5
1
--
14
6
3
4
4
16
9
8
9
5
3
4
4
12
9
8
5
1
3
5
1
2
2
9
3
2
5
1
Edwardsville
Granite City
Nameoki
' 2
Wood River
All other units
Marion
33
29
4
25
21
4
8
5
3
11
10
12
7
10
12
4
10
8
7
6
8
7
4
3
1
4
3
Centralia
1
4
Salem --
All other units
Marshall
9
9
7
7
1
1
2
7
2
7
Bennington
All other units
7
7
1
1
14
12
43
23
14
12
43
6
12
21
6
12
21
2
4
4
2
4
4
Menard
Mercer --
23
8
8
1
1
9
14
9
14
56
2
6
2
6
New Boston
All other units
1
1
Montgomery
56
35
35
7
7
Hillsboro
6
4
5
41
6
4
5
41
4
1
3
27
4
1
3
27
Nokomis
North Litchfield....
All other units
3"
4
--
4
Morgan
38
34
4
34
31
3
8
6
2
Moultrie
15
15
11
11
3
3
5
10
5
10
4
7
4
7
1
2
1
2
Ogle .-
11
11
6
6
2
2
8
3
8
3
5
1
5
1
1
1
1
1
All other units
I
846
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Table 1. — Nxmhcr of cnaes on relief in Illinois with less than 3 years' residence
in local units in which they received relief by race, by less than 3 years'
residence in county, and by less than 3 years' residence in State, fall, 1939 —
Continued
Less than 3 years' residence in local governmental unit
County and local
unit
Total
cases
White
and
other
Negro
Less than 3 years' residence
in county
Less than 3 years' residence
in State
Total
White
and
other
Negro
Total
White
and
other
Negr
Peoria.. . .. .
111
101
10
73
63
10
24
17
7
Peoria City
All other units
65
46
56
45
9
1
51
22
42
21
9
1
17
7
11
6
6
1
Perry. .
15
8
14
8
1
13
4
12
4
1
2
3
1
3
1
Piatt
Pike
53
53
29
29
11
11
9
9
S5
12
19
9
9
35
6
6
17
6
6
17
3
2
6
3
2
6
Pearl
All other units
Pope . -
11
9
1
10
12
18
11
8
1
10
5
10
4
4
1
Pulaski
6
6
6
6
6
4
2
85
4
2
4
2
4
2
All other units
Randolph
82
3
62
59
3
20
18
2
Rock Island
26
25
1
15
14
1
12
12
10
7
9
10
6
9
..
5
5
5
5
4
5
l"
5
3
4
5
3
4
Rock Island
All other units
St. Clair
156
110
46
81
52
29
53
32
21
Belleville . -
11
18
36
48
9
34
11
18
18
30
33'
is"
18
9
1
7
8
12
34
8
12
7
8
6
19
15
8
4
10
5
22
7
5
4
10
1
12
Canteen . ..
4
East St. Louis
Stites
10
7
All other units
12
5
Saline
141
133
8
52
47
5
12
11
1
Carrier Mills.
East Eldorado
Harrisbure
24
24
37
9
26
21
20
24
34
9
25
21
4
-.
8
13
11
2
6
12
5
13
9
2
6
12
3
2'
2
1
5
2
1
4
-
Independence
Rsleigh .
1
3
1
3
All other units.
Sanuamon
116
113
3
48
46
2
20
18
2
5
33
1
14
12
12
39
5
30
1
14
12
12
39
--
2
17
2
15
Capital
2
8
6
2
Mechanicsburg
Springfield
2
6
5
16
2
6
5
16
1
5
1
5
1
6
1
5
Woodside
All other units
Schuyler
26
26
10
10
1
1
Rushville
8
18
8
18
4
6
4
6
1
1
All other units
Scott
6
6
4
4
1
1
Shelby
30
30
15
15
5
5
Shelbvville
6
24
6
24
1
14
1
14
1
4
1
4
All other units
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
847
T^ARTT. 1 —UumUr of cases on relief in IlUnois xmth less than S years' residence
^Tzoca^TS' . i//uk tney releived relief W race, l>y ^^l^^J^^^^^
residence in county, and hy less than 3 years' residence in State, fall, lJo9-
Continued
Less than 3 years' residence in local governmental unit
County and local
Total
cases
White
and
other
Negro
Less than 3 years' 'esidence
in county
Less than 3 years' residence
in State
unit
Total
White
and
other
Negro
Total
White
and
other
Negro
9
3
2
1
Stephenson
8 1 1
Freeport
5
4
90
5
3
-.
2
1
2
-.
Tazewell -
90
63
63
9
9
43
14
24
9
43
14
24
9
40
9
12
2
40
9
12
2
4
1
4
4
1
4
Pekin
Union
36
36
14 14
4
4
Vermilion
104
97
7
49
43
6
6
22
17
5
33
6
13
11
4
37
27
6
13
11
4
36
6
" i"
23
3
6
9
1
7
17
3
6
9
1
7
14
1
3
3
9
1
3
3
5
Grant
1
1
All other units -
Wabash
7
7
7
7
5
5
Warren.
19
18
1
13
12
1
2
2
Monmouth.--
All other units.
14
5
13
5
1
9
4
8
4
1
2
2
Washington
1
1
1 1
1
1
Wayne --
28
28
8 8
2
2
4
5
19
4
5
19
2
4
2
2
4
Four Mile
Orel
2
2
White
26
25
1
15
15
5
5
Indian Creek
All other units
5
21
5
20
--
4
11
4
11
--
--
Whiteside.
11
11
7
7
4
4
Fulton
3
8
3
8
1
6
1
6
1
1
3
All other units
WiU
64
59
5
38
34
4
7
4
3
36
4
24
32
3
24
4
1
24
20
4
7
4
3
All other units
14
14
Williamson
71
66
5
69
64
5
18
17
1
Winnebago
84
78
6
67
61
6
39
34
5
Eockford
61
23
56
22
5
1
55
12
50
11
5
1
31
8
27
7
4
1
All other units
3
3
\.......| 2
2
~ ~
i
t
848
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Table 2. — Sources of interageyicy inquiries received hy the Illinois Emergency
Relief Commission in 1938
[Illinois Emergency Relief Commission, division of certification and service, July 13, 1939]
Point of origin
Number
of in-
quiries
Point of origin
Number
of in-
quiries
California .. --
818
Missouri
123
St. Louis...
Los Angeles
408
46
41
52
271
73
Oakland
Scattered cities
50
New York
200
123
Illinois
628
Scattered cities -
77
Ohio
Chicago . . - .-- ..
586
42
74
Cleveland
Toledo
27
26
Indiana
71
21
45
26
Oregon. -
Scattered cities.
68
Portland
Iowa
141
30
38
41
24
76
Washington.
Davenport
86
Seattle
24
Michigan..
162
Scattered cities
62
Wisconsin .
Detroit .—
60
25
77
99
Lansing
Milwaukee
Scattered cities
63
36
69
Other States
253
Minneapolis
St. Paul..-.
25
36
6
Scattered cities .
_
Table 3. — Purposes of interagency inquiries received by tlie Illinois Emergency
Relief Commission in 1938
[Illinois Emergency Relief Commission, division of certification and service, July 13, 1939]
Rank
Purposes of inquiry
Volume
Percent-
age
1
Authorization to return
'1,008
638
478
1274
237
111
46
136.1
2
22.8
3
Social investigation .... . . .
17.1
4
19.8
5
Unknown
8.4
6
Other . .
3.9
7
Vital statistics .
1.6
Total -.
2,792
100.0
The total number pertaining to residence is 1,282, or 45.9 percent of the total number of letters received.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
849
Table 4. — Number and purpose of interagency inquiries received ly the Illinois
Emergency Relief Commission in 1938
[Illinois Emergency Relief Commission, division of certification and service, July 13, 1939]
State
(a)
United States total-
Percent
Alabama
Arizona
Arkansas -
California
Colorado
Connecticut
Delaware
Florida
Georgia..-
Idaho
Illinois
Indiana.
Iowa --
Kansas
Kentucky
Louisiana
Maine
Maryland
Massachusetts
Michigan
Minnesota
Mississippi
Missouri
Montana.-
Nebraska.- —
Nevada
New Hampshire—.
New Jersey
New Mexico
New York
North Carolina
North Dakota
Ohio
Oklahoma
Oregon
Pennsylvania
Rhode Island
South Carolina
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Utah
Vermont-,.- -
Virginia
Washington
Washington, D. C-
West Virginia
Wisconsin
Wyoming .-
Number
of
inquiries
(b)
Purpose of inquiry
Authori-
zation to
return
(0
2,792
100.0
10
8
4
818
4
1
I'
3
3
628
71
141
23
3
21
--
4
162
69
23
1
-----
4
200
1
14
74
10
68
51
1
11
6
11
1,008
36.1
1
3
""'§24'
1
315
14
39
2
1
3
Verifica-
tion of
residence
(d)
274
Social in-
vestiga-
tion
(e)
478
17.1
3
1
2
91
1
1
1
110
28
25
5
1
3
Support
from
relative
(f)
638
22.8
5
2
"234'
1
Vital
statistics
(g)
1
3
49
""5'
16
4
23
11
1
6
1
7
"\
19
"i
13
46
1.6
Other
(h)
111
3.9
Un-
known
(i)
237
8.4
1
1
2
72
1
350 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Table 5. — Amount of relief authorised ' for a family of Jf ^ loith no outside income
in selected ^ relief units in Illinois, May 194O
[Illinois Emergency Relief Commission, division of certification and service, Aug. 8, 1940]
Relief authorized
Relief unit May 19',0 *
Downers Grove (Du Page County) $60.00
City of Chicago (Cook County) 59. 84
Wheeling (CooIj County) 49.94
Rock Island (Rock Island County) 48.86
Springfield (Sangamon County) 46.72
Capitol (Sangamon County) 45.51
City of Peoria (Peoria County) 42.71
South Rock Island (Rock Island County) 42.64
Perry County (commission) 42.31
East St. Louis (St. Clair County) 41.42
Massac County (commission county) 35.97
City of Rockford (Wiimebago County) 35.76
Williamson County (commission) 34.97
Sycamore (De Kalb County) 33.89
Taylorville (Christian County) 32.06
Carrier Mills (Saline County) 31.63
Mall (Bureau County) 30.57
Hillsboro (Montgomery County) 30.06
Areola (Douglas County) 26.83
Pulaski County (commission) 22.41
Alexander County (commission) 19.75
Scott County (commission) 17.51
1 Items authorized for issue only in special case circumstances have been excluded. Such
items are special diets, transportation for school or clinic, medical care, and hospitalization.
2 Man, woman, boy 13, girl 8.
' Selected to give coverage of State in terms of geographical location, 1930 population,
size of case load, and types of economic activity predominating in various sections of
the State.
* Preliminary figures subject to revision.
TESTIMONY OF MR. AND MRS. GEORGE HANKE
The Chairman. Mr. and Mrs. Hanke. Congressman Sparkman
will question you.
Mr. Sparkman. Will you state your name for the record, please.
Mr. Hanke. George Hanke.
Mr. Sparkman. How old are you, Mr. Hanke?
Mr. Hanke, Thirty-seven.
Mr. Sparkman. Where were you born ?
Mr. Hanke. Chicago.
Mr. Sparkman. You have lived in Chicago all of your life?
Mr. Hanke. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. What education did you have ?
Mr, Hanke. Grammar-school graduate.
Mr. Sparkman. Do you have a trade ?
Mr. Hanke. I do.
Mr. Sparkman. What is it ?
Mr. Hanke. My dad taught me wood-working machines.
Mr. Sparkman. Wood-working machines ?
Mr. Hanke. Wood-working machines, sawing and wood working.
Mr. Sparkman. Is that your family ?
Mr. Hanke. Yes.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 851
Mr. Sparkman. One baby?
Mr. Hanke. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. How old is the baby ?
Mr. Hanke. Four months.
Mr. Sparkman. Have you ever been on relief ?
Mr. Hanke. I was part time, and then on private employment, and
then back on relief again.
Mr. Sparkman. When was that ?
Mr. Hanke. From 1935 to 1939.
relief and residence status
Mr. Sparkman. How did you happen to get off relief in 1939?
Mr. Hanke. I accepted private employment.
Mr, Sparkman. Where?
Mr. Hanke. In Chicago and up in Minneapolis.
Mr. Sparkman. When you went to Minneapolis, did you move
up there?
Mr. Hanke. I went up there, and naturally I would have to make
my — I would have to live up there for the time being while the work
was being done up there. I couldn't travel back and forth. _
Mr. Sparkman. In other words, when you went, you went simply
to stay there while you were working?
Mr.' Hanke. Wliile I was working; yes.
Mr. Sparkman. While you had work?
Mr. Hanke. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Then it was your intention to return to Chi-
cago ?
Mr. Hanke. It was my intention to return to Chicago, because I
was born here and raised here, and this w\as my home here.
Mr. Sparkman. You were on relief in Chicago?
Mr. Hanke. I was on relief in Chicago ; yes.
Mr. Sparkman. You went to Minneapolis to accept private em-
ployment ?
Mr. Hanke. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Did you discuss with the Chicago relief people
before you left what you were going to do ?
Mr. Hanke. I did, over at the Wicker Park station.
Mr. Sparkman. Did you state to them you were going to Minne-
apolis to accept a private position?
Mr. Hanke. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. How long did you work in IMinneapolis ?
Mr. Hanke. Four and a half months at the Mitchell Battery Cor-
poration. Then I was on a farm, working on farms threshing.
Mr. Sparkman. You had total employment there of how much?
Was it about 6 months?
Mr. Hanke. Possibly about 6 months.
Mr. Sparkman. Did you go on relief there?
Mr. Hanke. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. After your employment was up ?
Mr. Hanke. Yes.
g52 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Sparkmax. When was that?
Mr. Hanke. From about December 1939 until the 7th of March 1940.
Mr. Sparkman. Did you work at the battery place until the job
ran out?
Mr. Hanke. Yes ; I was laid off there.
Mr. Sparkman. Then you got a job harvesting?
Mr. Hanke. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. You stayed with that until the season was over?
Mr. Hanke. Yes ; until that was through.
Mr. Sparkman. Then you went on relief and stayed until March?
Mr. Hanke. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. What happened in March ?
Mr. HANiiE. I was due for another ticket. I had to call at the relief
office there and I was posted — when I came at 8 o'clock in the morning.
I was posted to come back at 1, 1 o'clock in the afternoon, not stating
what was to be done. When I came back at 1 o'clock in the afternoon,
I was told that they were sending me back to Chicago on the 4 o'clock
train that very day. They drove me home and bought a ticket.
My wife was carrying the baby at the time. She was over at the
prenatal clinic. The case worker called up the prenatal clinic and
asked the doctor if she was able to travel by train. He said "Yes,"
even in spite of her condition, and they sent us down.
Mr. Sp^vrkman. When was the baby born ?
Mr. Hanke. March 31, 1940.
JSIr. Sparkjvian. This was about 3 weeks before the baby was born ?
Mr. Hanke. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. "\Anien you applied for relief at Minneapolis, did
you have any difficulty getting it?
Mr. Hanke. Well, 1 had to — I didn't have much difficulty.
Mr. Sparkman. Here is what I am getting at, Mr. Hanke : Did Min-
neapolis accept you as a resident there, or were you considered as a
resident of Chicago?
Mr. Hanke. I was taken in there on relief as a transient.
Mr. Sparkman. As a transient?
Mr. Hanke. Yes; they have a transient bureau there.
Mr. Sparkman. Did you give them your Chicago connection?
Mr. Hanke. Right.
Mr. Sparkman. Do you know whether or not they got in touch with
Chicago relief?
Mr. Hanke. They got in touch with Chicago relief.
Mr. Sparkman. Did Chicago ask for you to be sent back?
Mr. Hanke. No; not according to Chicago. Chicago stated that
Minneapolis sent me back.
]Mr. Sparkman. You got that word after 3'ou got back down here?
Mr. Hanke. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Did Minneapolis tell you they had contacted
Chicago ?
Mr. Hanke. They stated they contacted Chicago and when I
arrived here all I had to do was go down to the relief office here, and
I would be taken care of.
Mr. Sparkman. They furnished you a ticket from Minneapolis?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 853
Mr. Hanke. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Did they give you any expense money or any-
thing ?
Mr. Hanke. They gave us a few doUars expense money for food.
Mr. Sparkman. What time did you get to Chicago?
Mr. Hanke. About midnight.
Mr. Sparkman. What did you do then ?
Mr. Hanke. We slept in the raih"oad depot.
Mr. Sparkman. You and your wife, Mrs. Hanke?
Mr. Hanke. We slept in the railroad depot ; yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Did you go down to the relief office the next day ?
Mr. Hanke. The following morning ; yes.
Mr. Sparkman. What happened?
Mr. Hanke. I went to the Chicago relief office at Wicker Park.
They stated I would have to report to Harrison and Halsted, to the
transient bureau. I went down and they gave me an application,
listened to my case and gave me an application and I filled it out.
I had that okayed and notarized, and then they gave me a card
stating that I was supposed to be back there at 9:30, the 13th of
March.
Mr. Sparkman. This was about the 8tli of March?
Mr. Hanke. This was the 8th of ISIarch. They gave me a card,
and I was supposed to report back on the 13th.
Mr. Sparkman. On the 13th ?
Mr. Hanke. Yes. I came down there, my wife and I. We sat
there on the nice soft benches they have there from 9 : 30 in the morn-
ing until 4:30 in the afternoon, without a bite to eat or anything.
We came back and a young lady come out and said "I am awfully
sorry, but I can't do anything for you. You are listed as a non-
resident. I spoke to our legal department, and they are not going
to carry you unless you are here 3 years."
Mr. Sparkman. Now, you had been here all of your life?
Mr. Hanke. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. And had gone away and stayed away about 6
months ?
Mr. Hanke. Nine months.
Mr. Sparkman. Nine months?
Mr. Hanke. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. What was the settlement period in Minneapolis, do
you know? Did they tell you?
Mr. Hanke. Two years.
Mr. Sparkman. Two years?
Mr. Hanke. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. You would have had to be there 2 years before you
would have been entitled to relief as a resident of that State?
Mr. Hanke. Yes, sir.
Mr. Sparkman. But although you had been gone only 9 months, you
had lost your residence here?
Mr. Hanke. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Did you go away with any intention of staying
nway, or moving your home away?
354 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Hanke. No, sir ; I explained that to the man at the relief office,
the period of work.
Mr. Sparkman. You explained to him you were moving away simply
for the purpose of finding private employment ?
Mr. Hanke. Yes.
Mr, Sparkman. For that period only?
Mr. Hanke. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. And that you intended to retain your home in
Chicago ?
Mr. Hanke. Yes ; as soon as there would be a chance for work in
Chicago, I would be back.
Mr. Sparkman. So now you are neither a resident of Chicago nor of
Minneapolis ?
Mr. Hanke. Neither one. I don't know where I belong now.
Mr. Sparkman. Are you getting any relief?
Mr. Hanke. I am being taken care of by the Salvation Army at
present.
Mr. Sparkman. You are not getting any public relief ?
Mr. Hanke. No.
Mr. Sparkman. That is a private agency?
Mr. Hanke. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Are you getting any work?
Mr. Hanke. I am out every day looking.
Mr. Sparkman. Do you find any?
Mr. Hanke. I have had several prospects, "Will call," just as soon
as the weather changes and business picks up a little, along that line.
Mr. Sparkman. Have you done any work at all since returning here
in March ?
Mr. Hanke. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Wliat?
Mr. Hanke. Dishwashing.
Mr. Sparkman. For whom ?
Mr. Hanke. Salvation Army.
Mr. Sparkman. The Salvation Army is taking care of you ?
Mr. Hankje. One of their hotels. It is like — the same as a hotel.
Mr. Sparkman. Oh, yes.
Mr. Hanke. They have people working there. I was working there
during vacation period.
Mr. Sparkman. You have not had any independent job of your
own?
Mr. Hanke. No.
Mr. Sparkman. You still regard yourself as a citizen of Chicago?
Mr. Hanke. Right.
Mr. Sparkman. Do you vote here, Mr. Hanke ?
Mr. Hanke. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Have you always voted here ?
Mr. Hanke. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. You are still a voting citizen ?
Mr. Hanke. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. But not a resident?
Mr. Hanke. That is what they tell me.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 855
Mr. Sparkman. Mrs. Hanke, do you have anything to add to what
Mr. Hanke has said?
Mrs. Hanke. No; I don't think so.
Mr. Hanke. What I want, is not lelief. I am physically able to go
out and work and take care of my wife. That is what I want to do.
I'm not seeking relief if I can possibly help it. All I want is to try to
get something to tide over until private work could be had.
Mr. Sparkman. Are you registered with the employment agencies?
Mr. Hanke. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. You are able-bodied?
Mr. Hanke. I am.
Mr. Sparkman. You have not had any employment at all since 1935
other than a job in Minneapolis that only lasted for a short time?
Mr. Hanke. I had about 10 months of work at a bicycle place here in
Chicago.
Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Hanke, during the time you have had to seek
relief, have you taken a job every time you got a chance to take a job in
private employment ?
Mr. Hanke. Every job that was available I accepted.
Mr. Sparkman. In other words, the thing you are looking for is
work so that you can sustain yourself and your family?
Mr. Hanke. Right.
Mr. Sparkman. I believe that is all.
The Chairman. Are there any other questions, gentlemen? (No
response.) You are excused, Mr. and Mrs. Hanke. Thank you very
much.
(Whereupon Mr. and Mrs. Hanke were excused.)
TESTIMONY OF ALBERT LEWIS HILER
The Chairman. Mr. Hiler. Congressman Parsons will question
you, Mr. Hiler.
Mr. Parsons. State your name and address to the reporter.
Mr. Hiler. Albert Lewis Hiler, 811 West Lawrence.
Mr. Parsons. Chicago?
Mr. Hiler. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. Where were you born, Mr. Hiler?
Mr. Hiler. Richmond, N. J.
Mr, Parsons. When?
Mr. Hiler. October 10, 1915.
Mr. Parsons. You have spent most of your life in New Jersey?
Mr. Hiler. No ; New York State.
Mr. Parsons. When did you go to New York State?
Mr. Hiler, I do not remember the exact date, but very shortly after
I was born. I imagine within 1 or 2 years.
Mr, Parsons. Did you go to school in New Jersey ?
Mr, Hiler. No. I never attended school in New Jersey.
Mr. Parsons. What educational opportunities haA^e you had, and
how far did you go?
Mr. Hiler. I graduated from Staunton Military Academy, and
took a 1-year postgraduate course in a school in New York State.
260370— 40— pt. 3-
g56 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Parsons. How old were vou when you finished school?
Mr. HiLER. 19.
Mr. Parsons. What did you do in New York?
Mr. HiLER. I entered a business that had been my hobby ever since
I was 8 years old. I went into tlie postage-stamp business. I was
employed by a wholesale stamp firm for a short time in 1935, and then
I went into'the business on my own. In a short time I made sufficient
capital to establish myself fairly well in business,
Mr. Parsons. Just how successful were you ? What was your rev-
enue per year, approximately?
Mr. HiLER. I was rather successful in my business, and during 1936
I would say my gross revenue was about $10,000 and in 1937 it was
about double that.
Mr. Parsons. I understand from your statement here that you had
offices not only in New York but also in London and Berlin ; is that
true ?
Mr. HiLER. Yes. I was considered as a resident of England for
3 years— 1936, 1937, and 1938.
Mr. Parsons. You were considered as a resident of England?
Mr. HiLER. Yes. I always retained my American, citizenship, but
when I reentered the United States, I reentered as a nonresident of
this country.
Mr. Parsons. You were out of the States for more than 2 years?
Mr. HiLER. I was never out of the United States for a period
longer than 6 months.
Mr. Parsons. What happened
Mr. HiLER. Nine months, rather.
Mr. Parsons. Nine months?
Mr. HiLER. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. If you are out more than 2 years without revisiting,
you have to reenter again.
Mr. HiLER. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. You were considered as being a resident of England ?
Mr. HiLER. No; a citizen of the United States, but a nonresident.
In other words, I had nonresident status coming in, as far as customs
regulations were concerned. In other words, taking up a permanent
residence in England enabled me — or rather, made it easier for me
to enter the United States in relation to customs duties and regu-
lations.
Mr. Parsons. AVliat happened that your business collapsed ?
Mr. HiLFJt. Well, various things. I embarked in 1937 on an enter-
prise in partnership with another gentleman, an Englishman, which
took me around the world, especially to the South Sea Islands to
procure large quantities of coronation stamps, buying them unused
in the South Sea Islands and posting them back to England, to
supply unused stamps for collectors. Even though we figured the
enterprise could not be a failure, because we purchased the stamps
at face value, something that previously had never happened in the
postage-stamp business on any great scale occurred in the latter part
of 1937 when in England they had a rather severe stock-market re-
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 857
cession owing to new taxation on corporations that was announced,
and rearmament plans.
In 1935 there was an issue of stamps for the entire British Empire
commemorating the twenty-fifth anniversary of the coronation of
King George. That issue of stamps inside of one year quadrupled
its value. So in 1937 when a similar issue of stamps commemorating
the coronation of King George VI came out, speculators, not in the
stamp business but in stocks, bought large quantities of these coro-
nation stamps, hoping a repetition would occur. Wlien this stocii
market recession occurred, these men who had gone into stamps as
a side line, being that stocks were their primary interest, sold or
unloaded them, you might say; they unloaded their supplies of
stamps to release the cash represented.
In the stamp business when a large quantity of stamps is offered
for sale at any one time and pushed onto the market it causes a
general decline in the selling price of the stamps, and that is what
occurred. These stamps that were selling at that time for from 10
to 50 percent over their face value dropped to one-third below face
value. To this day coronation stamps are still selling around face
value.
Mr. Parsons. What is the highest price you ever received for a
stamp ?
Mr. HiLER. I could not say. I would not recall definitely. I do
not deal in rare stamps, if you mean to bring that out. I dealt in
large quantities, wholesale quantities of medium-priced stamps.
Mr. Parsons. You say you took a trip to the South Sea Islands.
Mr. HiLER. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. How much capital did it take to set you up for that
kind of business?
Mr. HiLER. That trip represented a total investment of about
$30,000, partially put up by myself and my partner, and also an-
other wholesale stamp dealer in England, but the trip was not a
success owing to the crash that occurred.
Mr. Parsons. You were back in London when this crash came in
the stamp business?
Mr. HiLER. No. The crash occurred while I was in the South Sea
Islands. At the same time, in Germany, there was a crash in the
stamp business of another sort. There were issued a series of stamps
called miniature sheets which were stamps issued, intead of sheets of
many stamps, just 4 stamps or 1 stamp or 10 stamps in a small sheet,
issued for the particular purpose of commemorating some historical
event. ;
These sheets grew enormously in popularity in the last few years.
There was an actual boom in them.
In 1937, also, it occurred that various countries in Europe which
issued sets of these miniature sheets in restricted quantities secretly
reprinted very large quantities after the value had gone way above
the face value, as high as 1,000 percent above face value in a short
time, because the quantities issued were strictly limited. They had
not destroyed the plates. They reissued the stamps secretly and sold
them to unscrupulous stamp dealers, you might say.
ggg INTERSTATE MIGRATION
When this fact became generally known, there was a collapse in
the market for those stamps. Also, the catalog makers, who list in.
their catalogs— such as Scott Stamp & Coin, and others— all the
stamps ever issued in the world, refused to recognize these issues on
account of the fact I just mentioned, because they took the view that
they were not regular postage stamps. So, they refused to recognize
them, and when that happened the market for those stamps com-
pletely collapsed. I lost, in New York, several thousand dollars on
account of the collapse, and in Germany 50,000 marks.
Mr. Parsons. You say you were still in the South Sea Islands at
the time the crash came?
Mr. HiLER. Yes.
Mr, Parsons. How did you get back to the States ?
Mr. HiLER. I did not return to the States from the South Sea
Islands. I Avent back to England through the States. I arrived in
England in April 1938 and continued in business in spite of the
severe setbacks.
Mr. Parsons. Until when?
Mr. HiLER. Until November or October 1938. Then I had fur-
ther set-backs. Just before I took this trip to the South Sea Islands,
my English manager died. Upon my return I hired a new manager
who turned out to be dishonest. He absconded with the rest of the
capital and the stock of stamps that were left in England. I had
previously, on return from this trip, closed my New York office.
I arrived there in April 1938 and then went to England, arriving in
England in June 1938.
I had, when this occurred, closed my English office. That left me
just in control of my German office. The final straw, as we might
say, occurred in September of 1938 when the German authorities
confiscated my business there. That left me without any funds at
all. I had to, with the little funds I had left, return to America,
arriving in New York on November 2, 1938. I have not left this
country since then.
Mr. Parsons. You say that the German authorities confiscated
your business?
Mr. HiLER. Yes.
]\Ir. Parsons. What did they do, tax it out of existence, or just
take it over ?
Mr. HiLER. They took it over, because they had issued a regula-
tion which prevented me from — I had better go back a little bit
earlier. When I first started doing business in Germany, I did not
enter into any difficulties until I did it on a large scale. Then I was
approached by representatives of the Government. It was brought
out that I could not transfer any of my profits from the country
whatsoever. I could do business there, but I could not transfer any
funds out of the country.
As you probably know, large firms like the Ford Motor Car Co.,
Standard Oil, and so on, cannot do so, either.
I was going to close up the business there, but the German manager
told me that it would be rather a hard load for him. He was mar-
ried and had a baby. He felt that he had a very good idea. He
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 859
agreed to the transference of my business interests to liim. As he
was a German citizen, he would operate it as his own business. He
agreed to transfer the profits to me, to my bank. That was his idea ;
and although I had no control over the business, actually it was still
my business, but in his name.
Mr. Parsons. He was going to transfer the funds to the Bank of
England ?
Mr. HiLER. He was going to transfer the funds to me, in the Bank
of England. He did so for several years, or for 2 years. Then the
authorities — you might say it occurred this way: He left the corn-
try in September 1938, on a trip to England. His passport had been
taken by the military authorities because he was eligible for military
service. I was in Paris at the time. He wanted to go to England to
put over a large deal. He happened to walk into the Paris office,
because he had heard of the sailing of a vessel that was making trips
from Hamburg to England with no passports required.
As you probably know, there were numerous vessels making such
trips. He took a plane down to Hamburg, got on that vessel and
went to England. When he returned, the military authorities arrested
him. As you are aware, when the authorities in Germany do anything,
they do a" very thorough job of it. When a person commits an act
which they view with suspicion, they make a very thorough investiga-
tion to see if there is any ulterior motive, or anything else behind
the surface. They discovered he was a postage-stamp dealer, so they
investigated his activities and when they discovered he was trans-
ferring funds out of the country, they confiscated his business. Of
course, that was equivalent to confiscating my business.
Mr. Parsons. They really confiscated your business ?
Mr. Hiler. That is right.
Mr. Parsons. How much revenue were you getting during those
2 years he was having the profits transferred to England ?
"Mr. HiLER. A fairly large revenue, because in Germany, owing to
currency restrictions, there was a great demand for the purchase of
postage stamps. There was a great demand in Germany for stamps
and very high prices were paid, for various reasons. One primary
reason was that various people in Germany who wished to leave
the country, such as persecuted races and other people who did not
believe in Nazi government views, because of regulations preventing
them from taking any funds out when they left the country, pur-
chased postage stamps, and were able to get them out of the country
in various ways.
Some of them purchased stamps from the stamp dealers, who mailed
them out to other countries, and when they arrived in those countries
they sold them. Others made arrangements with stamp dealers
whereby stamp dealers would arrange for a transfer. A particular
individual in Germany would transfer 100,000 marks of their money
to a stamp dealer, who would see to it that they would get so much
English money for it, for the 100,000 marks, in England, when they
arrived there. " In that way they overcame the restrictions which took
all of their money away if they" left the country. A great number of
860 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
German stamp dealers entered that business. My office never did anj^
of that business. It never entered into that type of business. These
stamp dealers have all been arrested, and a large proportion of them
are no longer living.
Mr. Parsons. Are you married?
Mr. HiLER. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. You say you came back to the United States in 1938 ?
Mr. HiLER. November 2.
Mr. Parsons. What have you been doing since?
Mr. HiLER. During November and December I was living with my
parents, in New Jersey, and was attempting to find someone to
refinance me in the stamp business. Owing to unsettled world con-
ditions, no matter who I approached, they felt at that time, stamps
being a rather speculative business, as it was even in the best times,
and war seeming imminent, they felt they could not invest any
money in anything concerning foreign countries. I was unable to
find further capital.
In January I moved to New York City, and endeavored to find
employment there. I endeavored to find employment in New York
City, but I was unsuccessful. I will not say I could not have found
employment there. At this time I was attempting to build up with
the small capital and stock of stamps I had left in my business a
little mail-order business in the United States. I started that in
New York City. I moved to Florida in the middle of January
because my wife, being an Australian, had never experienced any
cold climate. It does not snow in Australia. Their winter is similar
to Florida winter. So we went to Florida on account of her — not
exactly on account of her health, but on account of the climate.
Mr. Parsons. You expected to carry on your stamp business down
there?
]Mr. HiLER. Yes. Unfortunately, just the second month we were
down there — I do not remember what month we ariived there, but
we went in the middle of January, as I recall it, 1939. A short time
after I was there — I do not remember the exact date — owing to a
mistake of the Post Office Department, my mail-order business was
completely disorganized. We moved our address and put in change-
of-acldress cards. Then we did not move to that place. I put in a
second set of change-of-address cards, nullifying the previous set.
One set was put in the post box and the other set was given to the
postman. He carried it for 3 days. The second set arrived at the
post office before the first. lYhen the first set arrived, the mail was
sent to that address,, this address, at which I never stayed, instead
of the post office looking up to see what was wrong. They had my
previous address registered at the post office, and they sent all mail
back to the senders.
For a full month I did not receive any returns on my stamps that
had been sent out on approval. I sent stamps out on approval.
They would purchase whatever stamps they wanted, and return the
remainder of the stamps.
At this time I was employed. When that happened, I got very
disgusted with everything. As I said, it disorganized it. There-
INTERSTATE MIGRATION ggX
fore I abandoned it, completely, and concentrated on my work with
the company by which I was employed.
Mr. Parsons. What have you been doing since December 1939?
Mr. HiLER. From March 1 to December 1939 I worked for the
Fuller Brush Co. I started in as a salesman. In 2 months I was
promoted to the position of field manager, which I held for 8 months.
Mr. Parsons. Did you quit that company?
Mr. Hiler. I left that company for three reasons. One reason
was I felt there was no chance of adequate advancement. The sec-
ond reason was I did not like the work. The third reason was I
discovered I had made a mistake in coming to Florida, because my
wife had contracted a malaria in the South Sea Islands. I had no
idea of the extent of the prevalence of malaria in the Southern
States. I felt and my wife felt that the sooner we got out of Florida
the better it would be.
I also discovered that opportunities in Florida are strictly limited.
I was lucky to get the position I did get.
]\Ir. Parsons. What position did you get when you left there?
Mv. Hiler. I am sorry. I should have stated that I also left the
Fuller Brush Co. because I had an offer from another company, the
Standard Coffee Co., which I thought was going to be an excellent
position. It was a position which in a short time should have made
me branch manager of the company for the whole State of Florida.
The plans, and so forth, the profit to be made, and what my earn-
ings would be did not turn out at all. The plan that the companj'
was putting into operation was a failure because there was a 2-week
interval between the taking of the orders and the filling of those
orders. Very many of the orders were canceled, and the plan did
not work.
During the 6 weeks I was with them, during the latter part of
December and Januaiy, I made only about $12 a week,, so I left there
in disgust.
At that time, when I was looking for other work, my parents
came down to Florida for a visit.
Mr. Parsons. Let me interrupt you right there,
;Mr. Hiler. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. I notice from the record here your father was at one
time a very higldy paid man.
Mr. Hiler. That is right.
Mr. Parsons. In what Mork was he engaged ?
Mr. Hiler. For 25 .years, or 20 years, he was in the silk business
in New York City. He started as a silk salesman for H. R. Mallin-
son Co. in New York. While he was a salesman for them, he studied
and learned everything about the textile-designing end of the silk
business. After being with them 10 years he brought out a series of
designs called Arabian Nights, designs for women's print silk and
cotton dresses.
That series made him quite well known. He received an offer
from another firm to become their stylist. Actually, he suggested
that particular position. No other silk firm previously had had a
362 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
man who supervised designs. He became the stylist for that com-
pany at a very high sah\ry, and remained with them for some time.
He left them and went with another firm, and then he finally accepted
employment with a company with which you are no doubt all fa-
miliar, the Susquehanna Silk Mills do., and received a very good
contract, a 5-year contract. At that time he was earning $50,000
a year salary plus $25,000 in percentage, which contract ran for
5 years.
The depression came, and the Susquehanna Silk Mills Co. went into
receivership. The receivers called the contract void and his salary was
reduced to $10,000 a year within a very short time. So he left the
Susquehanna Silk Mills and entered the designing business on his own,
formed his own designing studios, Hiler Studios, Inc., 1441 Broadway.
He had to abandon that business in 1937 and since then he has not done
any work whatsoever .
Mr. Parsons. Does he have any savings, sufficient to take care of the
family and to take care of you ?
Mr. Hiler. He at the present time has no means of aiding me at all.
He has just enough funds to take him until the end of this year. His
health has been none too good. He hopes to find some position in the
silk business again this fall. He is recuperating his health.
Mr. Parsons. What have you been doing the past year?
Mr. Hiler. When he came to Florida in January of this year he sug-
gested that since I wanted to leave Florida and the opportunities were
so limited there, I try an enterprise he had successfully done 25 years
ago. He was a professional magician for a time 25 years ago. He
had magic as a hobby as I had stamps as a hobby. He worked his w^ay
through college, the latter part of his education — he was a graduate of
Cornell — by giving performances, providing entertainment and per-
forming tricks of magic for the college students.
He traveled all over the United States and was very successful at it.
When he married and when I came along, he abandoned that for a
steady position in one spot instead of traveling.
In January of this year I started out with my wife and baby who
was born on September 7, to do that same work. I covered a large
part of the country. I covered 11,000 miles in 5 months. I might say
that I was not a failure, but the work just earned me enough to pay
for expenses, because traveling great distances and having to live in
tourist cabins was expensive. My expenses were so high, my earnings
did not take care of much else.
I attributed the fact that I was not able to make the sum he indicated
I would make to the fact that 25 years ago the average college student
was a rich man's son, whereas now it is not the case. The college stu-
dents have very many things to use their money on, such as cars and
so forth, and do not have the amount of money the college students used
to have ; whereas my father was able to get never less than $5 a per-
formance, and would sometimes get as high as $15, 1 was only able to
get $1, and sometimes as high as $5.
Mr. Parsons. Mr. Hiler, how long did it take you to learn magic?
Mr. Hiler. I had also had magic as a hobby, as a side line to my
stamps.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 863
Mr. Parsons. You learned that from your father earlier?
Mr, HiLER. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. What are you doing now ?
Mr. HiLER. I reached Chicago because of the fact that I was travel-
ing from Denver, Colo., where I did three performances, through
Colorado, Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, and Wisconsin, and then came
down to Northwestern University here in Evanston. That was the
last college I could make this half of this year, because in June nat-
urally they have their examinations and eveiything. So, I finished
out to the end, and kept at this type of work.
Mr. Parsons. You covered all of the States clear to the Rocky
Mountains ?
Mr. Hiler. Yes. I covered some of the Eastern States, the South-
ern States, some Middle Western States, but I did not go further
west than the Rockies. I thought when I arrived here in Chicago
that I would have no difficulty in finding a position here.
Mr. Parsons. That is what thousands of them think.
Mr. Hiler. That is right. I thought the same thing. I thought
that it being a great big city, in a prosperous section of the country,
I would have no difficulty. I probably would have been able to get
quite a number of positions. I would not say there are no positions
here. I would rather say there are lots of positions if you happen
to be the man for the job.
EMPLOYMENT agencies, STATE AND PRIVATE
I turned down about 20 positions, not necessarily because of earn-
ings, but for several reasons. First, the good positions in the ma-
jority of cases can only be secured through an employment agency.
The employment agencies here in Chicago require large fees, ranging
from $40 for a position that pays $100 a month, up to $75 for that
same position.
Mr. Parsons. That is a private employment agency you are refer-
ring to now?
Mr. Hiler. A private employment agency ; yes.
Mr. Parsons. Did vou apply to the State agency?
Mr. Hiler. I applied to the State agency ; yes. May I bring this
out : As far as these State employment agencies are concerned— I do
not know whether my opinion is anywhere near true — but as far as
unskilled men are concerned, I feel as though they do not try to
find the men work. Rather, they arrange for their obtaining relief.
I applied, when I went to Florida, to the State relief employment
agency. I registered, gave them all the information, and went back
several times, but was not able to secure any position through them
whatsoever. In Chicago here I applied for work and also to see if
I was eligible for employment insurance. I was not eligible for it
because my work in Florida had been mainly on commissions, com-
missions on which no employment insurance had to be paid.
Mr. Parsons. You did not receive any social security number at
all?
364 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. HiLER. Oh, yes, I had, in my position as field manager with
the company, received an average of $60 a month, and the rest of my
earnings were commissions on which no insurance was paid. As in
one-quarter of the year I made a fairly high figure on the basis they
compute eligibility for employment insurance, I was not eligible
for it. I received a report back in Florida listing my earnings on
the aggregate toward employment insurance. I was not able to
afford it.
I also did not receive any interviews or calls for work through the
State employment agency, and with respect to the private employ-
ment agencies, I did not have any means of paying the $40 to $75
they asked for a job paying $100 a month. There were only 2
private employment agencies — I went to about 15 — there were only
'2. which offered a plan of time payments. One of them asked for
one-third of the amount down and the rest to be paid in 6 weeks.
Only at 1 would they allow me to pay after I got settled, by the
week, and they stretched it out to around 6 weeks.
Mr. Parsons. What are you doing now?
Mr. HiLER. Just last week I secured a temporary position as sales-
man for the Blue Star Auto Stores. I do not know whether it will
be permanent or not. I have never done any of that type of work in
a store. The type of work they want me to do is not only as a sales-
man but also as a stock taker, inventory work, and so forth.
Mr. Parsons. What is that supposed to pay you ?
Mr. HiLER. That pays $18 a week. I work from 8 in the morning
until 8 at night, and 9 o'clock at night on Thursday and Saturday
nights, and I work on Sunday, too.
Mr. Parsons. Where is your wife ? Is she with you ?
Mr. HiLER. She is up at 811 West Lawrence Street. May I add
something ?
Mr. Parsons. Yes.
Mr. HiLER. I was unable to take various positions because I had
my car. I left Florida with a 1938 Oldsmobile sedan which I pur-
chased from a finance company while employed by the Fuller Brush
Co. That car was an asset while I was employed by the Fuller Brush
Co., in fact, a necessity, and it was also a necessity while I was trav-
eling, attempting to earn an income with my magic. When I
arrived here it became a liability. I had $35 a month to pay on it
every month. It cost me about $10 a week to have it and run it, and
naturally I would have had to secure a position that would pay me
at least $30 a week.
I was unable to secure any position that would pay me that figure.
I also would have had to pay an employment agency. In other words,
if I had accepted any position that would have paid me $20, $25, or
$30, where I had to pay an employment agency fee besides, before
I could have caught up and paid those fees I would have lost my car,
because I would have fallen behind too far in the payments.
Two weeks ago I took the car back to Florida, returning it to the
finance company. That was week before last. I returned to Chicago
last week. I immediately secured a position, because then I no longer
had to secure a position which would have paid me the rate of earn-
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 8^5
ings which would have been necessitated by my retaining the car and
continuing to make the payments on it.
Mr. Parsons, Have you ever applied for any relief or W. P. A.
work of any type or character?
RESIDENCE STATUS
Mr. HiLER. No: I have not. As I say, when I went to Florida I
applied with the State employment agency, not for relief but for work,
but received none. When I came to Chicago, I applied at the State
employment agency for unemployment compensation and work, and
received neither.
The way we have been able to live since we have been in Chicago is
that when I went to the British consulate general in Chicago here in
regard to the fact that my wife has to leave this country by November 2
of this year in order to reenter on an immigration visa — she entered
on a visitor's visa — and I went to the British consulate general to see
if there was any way by which we could either get the visitor's visa
extended or arrange some way for her to remain in the country, but I
found no way by which she can remain in this country and become a
citizen. She has to leave.
Mr. Parsons. That is right. Where is she planning to go ?
Mr. HiLER. Windsor, Ontario, being the closest place. The British
consulate inquired into our financial position and so forth. When we
told him we were nearly out of money, that we had no prospects of a
position, and we were practically out of funds, he referred me to the
United Charities of Chicago. They have been splendid in assisting me
in every way. They have advanced $15 a week ever since I have been
in Chicago and have seen me every week and given me helpful
information.
They also contacted Florida to see if I was a resident of that State.
Naturally not being a resident of Illinois, they wanted to see if I was a
resident of Florida. I lived there over a year, so I considered myself
a resident of Florida, but the Public Relations Commission — I am not
sure whether that is the correct name — w^rote back saying they could
not verify my residence there because certain landlords I had rented
apartments from were not available ; they had moved, and they could
not locate them. They suggested that as I had been in business in
New York State and lived most of my life in New York State, I should
return there, and they would not authorize my return to Florida.
Therefore I am also a person without a permanent residence anywhere.
Mr. Parsons. Did you see many migrants on the road when you were
out traveling over the States ?
Mr. HiLER. I cannot say that I did. I traveled in Georgia, South
Carolina, North Carolina, Maryland, Virginia, Tennessee, Alabama,
Mississippi, Louisiana, Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Colorado,
Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, and Illinois. In those States I definitely do
not remember at any time seeing any people migrating along the roads,
you might say, in wagons or anything of that sort or old cars. I did
not notice any at any time. That does not mean they do not migrate.
I just did not see them.
ggg INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Parsons. You are a great believer in the American citizen hav-
ing the right to migrate or to go anywhere he wants to seek work ?
Mr. HiLER. I certainly am.
Mr. Parsons. You would not want to stop migration entirely ?
Mr. HiLER. No. I certainly would not.
Mr. Parsons. I think that is all. Do you have any questions,
Congressman Curtis ?
Mr. Curtis. No.
Mr. Parsons. Congressman Sparkman?
Mr. Sparkman. I have a question. In order for your wife to come
into this country on a regular immigration visa, would it be neces-
sary for you to show that you are capable of supporting her?
Mr. HiLER. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Is that true even though she is the wife of an
American citizen?
Mr. HiLER. Yes. That is what I am strongly worried about, be-
cause it states in the regulations — I have filed a petition for her to
become a citizen, in the first place. There I must assert wdiether I
have ever had any relief at all, or ever been on State or public
relief, or private relief, and also I must show that I am in a position
where I can properly take care of her. I am wondering whether
at that time I will have a permanent position and earnings sufficient,
and funds sufficient to cover that. I certainly hope so.
Mr. Parsons. You have given us quite a picture of what has been,,
up to comparatively recently, a self-supporting migrant.
Mr. HiLER. That is right.
Mr. Parsons. There are thousands of that kind of cases.
Mr. HiLER. Yes. I know that.
Mr. Parsons. We had a case up in New York where a man made,
for several years, from $5,000 to $10,000 annually, maintaining two
homes, one in New England and one down in New York. Sud-
denly he woke up one morning and found himself a broken man.
He never has been able to get rehabilitated since. •
Mr. HiLER. I know there are cases of that kind.
Mr. Parsons. Are there any other questions ?
Mr. Sparkman. Would it be possible to have your wife's visitor^s
visa extended again ?
Mr. HiLER. No. They have written, the last extension, that that
would be the last extension they could make. When she first en-
tered — that is, the last time she entered the United States on Novem-
ber 2, 1938, she was allowed to stay 6 months. It was extended for
another period of 6 months, and so on and so forth until this last
extension until November 2. The reason for these various exten-
sions was always that my wife was naturally going to have a baby,
and she could not leave the country while the baby was so small.
Now there is no reason why she should not leave the country. They
have said that the extension they have just given in June of this
year, which covers a period until November 2, will be the final one.
Mr. Parsons. Are there any other questions? (No response.)
You are excused, Mr. Hiler. Thank you very much. We appreciate
the contribution you have made to our record.
Mr. Hiler. Thank you.
(Whereupon Mr. Hiler was excused.)
INTERSTATE MIGRATION ggj
TESTIMONY OF LEO M. LYONS, COMMISSIONER OF EELIEF, CHICAGO
RELIEF ADMINISTRATION, CHICAGO, ILL.
The Chairman. The next witness will be Mr. Leo M. Lyons.
Mr. Parsons. Will you state your full name for the record, please,
Mr. Lyons?
Mr. Lyons. Leo M. Lyons.
Mr. Parsons. You are executive secretary of the Illinois State
Belief Commission?
Mr. Lyons. I am appearing here as commissioner of relief for the
city of Chicago, relative to the Chicago situation.
Mr. Parsons. You are also still secretary of the Illinois State
Relief Commission?
Mr. Lyons. That is right, Mr. Jacoby submitted a report for
the commission.
(The report is as follows:)
Statement bt Leo M. Lyons, Commissioner of Relief, Chicago Relief Admin-
istration, Chicago, III.
This statement of the problem confronting the Chicago Relief Administration
as a result of interstate migration of destitute citizens has been prepared at the
invitation of the representatives of the Congressional Committee on Interstate
Migration of Destitute Citizens.
The city of Chicago, because of its size and geographic situation, is con-
fronted by a question as to the handling of the social and economic problems
presented by migratory workers and their dependents. The Chicago Relief
Administration has met this problem by maintaining a specialized service
(called Transportation Service) to handle the cases of migratory persons and
families.
Under the former poor law of Illinois, prior to July 26, 1939, the local over-
seer of the poor was charged with the duty of relieving needy persons and
families in their jurisdiction, regardless of their legal residence. This humane
objective of the poor law was embodied in the policies of the Chicago Relief
Administration in handling cases of nonresident persons and families. Care
was extended to nonresident young persons, women, and families upon the
same basis as that extended to resiuencs. Care to uoiiresiilent unattached men
over 25 years of age was extended on the same basis as that to resident men
until September 1, 1937, when care to the nonresident unattached man was
limited to 7 days as a general policy. However, in handling the individual case,
Transportation Service was allowed to use discretion in further extension of
necessary care. Provision was made for extension of care to the sick and aged,
to those who had secured employment, and to seamen.
While carrying the case for relief, it was the policy for Transportation
Service to assist nonresident persons in utilizing the community resources and
various public services to further their social adjustment in this community.
Employable nonresident persons were referred to Illinois State Employment
Service for registration for work and for possible unemployment-compensation
benefits. The Chicago public schools accepted the children on the same basis
as resident children. Medical care, either free or at the expense of the Chicago
Relief Administration, was available if needed. The younger persons were
referred to National Youth Administration or Civilian Conservation Corps,
according to the individual situation. In the meantime, Transportation Service
carried on correspondence with the place of origin to determine whether or
not the nonresident person or family retained legal residence in the other
community and whether or not it was feasible to return them there. If the
nonresident person or family continued dependent, and if an authorization to
return them to legal residence was received, the social advisability of returning
them to their legal residence was considered. If it was determined that they
g03 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
should return, transportation to legal residence was offered and further relief
denied. If it was determined that it was socially advisable for them to remain
in Chicago, the employable member of the family was I'eferred to Work Projects
Administration for certification and the case accepted for such extended care
as was needed.
With the passage of the 3-year residence law by the Illinois Legislature, on
July 26, 1939, the duty of the overseer of the poor to relieve needy persons was
so qualified that only needy persons who resided in some one of the 1,455 gov^
ernmental units of Illinois for 3 years immediately preceding application could
be given assistance. The Chicago Relief Administration issued its Ofiicial
Bulletin No. 1123 on November 1, 1939, providing instructions to its offices as to
eligibility requirements under this law. These instructions were based upon
the opinion of the attorney general of Illinois as to the meaning of the law.
It was his opinion that the continued eligibility on the basis of residence of
persons in a pauper state on July 26, 1939, was not to be questioned. Appli-
cations subsequent to July 26, 1939, were reviewed for eligibility under the
3-year residence law, cases of questionable eligibility were referred to Trans-
portation Service. The official memorandum of January 2, 1940, supplementing
Official Bulletin No. 1123, provided instructions to Transportation Service as
to policy and procedure under the 3-year residence law.
Pending determination of eligibility under the 3-year residence law, the
following functions were among those assigned to Transportation Service by
this bulletin :
"To receive and act upon applications from persons living in Chicago whose
legal residence has not been determined. * * *
"To assist nonresident applicants so far as possible to obtain needed assist-
ance and services from other agencies and local community resources."
The private agencies in the community immediately felt the impact of the
need of persons found ineligible under tliese instructions as to residence
requirements for relief eligibility under the 3-year law. It was necessary for
them, through the council of social agencies, to seek an additional allocation
from the commiuiity fund, as the existing need was far greater than the avail-
able funds. The private agencies and Transportation Service have cooperated
wholeheartedly in handling this difficult problem, with relatively small re-
sources as compared to tlie magnitude of the problem. Transportation Service
has made the initial determination of eligibility for public relief in question-
able residence cases and has given referral service to the appropriate com-
munity agency for the persons ineligible for relief under the law. Employable
unattached women are referred directly to central placement office of the
Illinois State Employment Service. The qualified youth are referred to
National Youth Administration and Civilian Conservation Corps to make direct
application for these benefits. Unattached persons who are ill are referred to
Oak Forest Service (the county infirmary) for necessary care, and Ti-ansporta-
tion Service carries on the residence investigation. If the illness seems acute,
the police convey the person to Cook County Hospital. Private shelters are
used for special cases. Family cases in which the need is emergent and which
the relatives are unable to carry are referred to the appropriate private family
agency for aid. Through these cooperative efforts, the community agencies
have sought to lessen the hardships falling to the lot of the migratory persons
and families living in Chicago.
The following classification of some case situations arising under the present
interpretation of the Illinois 3-year i-esidence law reflects the harshness of the
operation of the law not only in its treatment of newcomers to Illinois but also
to Illinois residents who have moved across local governmental unit boundary
lines :
1. "immediate" cases
A. Applications of persons who have lived a considerable time in Chicago (at
least in excess of 3 years) and have established a residence in another govern-
mental unit for only a brief period, so that they are now ineligible for assistance
both in Chicago and the governmental unit wherein they are presently residing.
B. Applications of persons who have resided for a considerable period in some
other governmental unit in Illinois (at least in excess of 3 years) and who have
INTERSTATE MIGRATION gQQ
established residence in Cliicago for only a short period, so tliat they are ineligible
for assistance both in Chicago and also the previous governmental unit wherein
they formerly resided.
C Persons who have lived in Chicago for a considerable time (at least in excess
of 3 years) and who have established themselves for a brief period in some
locality outside the State and whose return cannot be presently authorized under
the 3-year residence law.
2. BRIEF "BKEAICS" IN RESIDENCE WITHIN THE PAST 3 YEARS
A. Persons who have had residence in a single governmental unit for a con-
siderable period of time (at least in excess of 3 years) but have lived for a brief
period outside of this unit, so that they are ineligible on a present application
under the 3-year residence law.
B. Persons whose return has been authorized from other States within the
past 3 years, but who are now ineligible under the present 3-year residence law.
3. PERSONS WHO WOULD HAVE BE^EN ELIGIBLE FOR DIRECT RELIEF ACCORDING TO THE OLD
LAW ON JULY 26, 1939, BUT WHO WERE NOT RECEII\nNG EELIEP AT THAT TIME
A. Persons whose relief would have been chargeable to another governmental
unit.
B. Persons whose relief would have been chargeable to Chicago, but whose
residence does not extend for a period of 3 years.
Notwithstanding the admirable and united efforts of both the public and private
agencies to meet the emergent need, it has been our experience that their total
resources available for this purpose are inadequate to provide needed care to
migrants. Only the more serious emergencies can be met. On the basis of our
experience, we believe that migration is a national problem which must be solved
by action initiated by the Federal Government, in collaboration with State and
local authorities.
As for the social characteristics of the migrants coming to the attention of
the Chicago Relief Administration, unfortunately no formal study has been
made of the family cases. It is our impression, however, that they represent
a young and employable group. There is a history of a high turn-over of cases
at Transportation Service, which might lead to the conclusion that migrants do
not lack aggressiveness in their endeavor to plan for themselves.
In the study which was made of the nonresident unattached man over 25
years of age applying for relief from the Chicago Relief Administration from
September 1 to December 21, 1938, the average case studied was characterized
as follows :
"He is an unskilled, apparently healthy, 32-year-old native white laborer from
the Middle West looking for a job. He had had a job; in 1938^ but had lost it
after the work was completed. He had been without work about 26 out of the
past 60 months.
"He is unmarried, has a grammar-school education, is not an active church
member, and has had no military experience. He is not a transient in the
popular sense of the word, as he has had less than 1 year experience on the
road. He has relatives and friends as resources."
The following tables are self-explanatory and may serve as indications of the
extent of the recognized need of migratory persona and families under the
former residence law of Illinois and under the current 3-year residence law.
In considering the tables it will be noted that the reduction in numbers of
persons eligible occurred soon after November 1, 1939, following release of
instructions as to the interpretation of the 3-year residence law. The statis-
tical count of "no applications" from November 1939 through January 1940 is
misleading as to the extent of the problem in those months, inasmuch as the
office capacity was greatly exceeded with tlie institution of the Chicago Relief
Administration policy under the 3-year residence law. Hundreds of unattached
persons were turned away at the door with no official count of their numbers.
It should also be pointed out that cases of persons and families found in
need but ineligible for relief upon the basis of residence were accepted by-
Transportation Service for issuance of Federal surplus foods from December
870
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
1939 to July 1, 1940. (On July 1, 1940, intake was closed for applications for
surplus commodities only because of the promulgation of the food-stamp plan
in which a requirement for participation is eligibility for food relief.) These
cases were carried at Transportation Service until June 1940 when Surplus
Commodity Only cases were transferred to Work Service of the Chicago Relief
Administration. „ . , •
The following three sets of tables give statistical information under major
headings of — . ^ . , , ,„_
A. Relief applications — Transportation Service (covering calendar years 19d7,
1938, 1939, and 1940 to date). ^ -r
B. Number of home-relief cases active at Transportation Service from Jan-
uary 1937 through June 1940, with commitments.
C. Return transportation statistics for the calendar years 1938, 1939, and
1940 to date. ^ , . t , c ^^i *■ a
Table 1 : Number of cases and persons returned to Legal Settlement and
Enumeration of Expenditures Involved.
Table 2 : Number of persons returned to their legal settlement, in the order
of their home States and countries.
Table 3: Number of persons returned to legal settlement by States and
countries in order of frequency.
Relief applications — Transportation Service
1940
Month
January..
February.
March
April
May
June
July
Total, 7 months-
SHELTER
January..
February.
March
April
May
June
fuly
Total, 7 months-
Number
of appli-
cations
215
203
275
324
408
358
554
2,367
Received
or referred
936
778
586
447
324
196
4,105
Rejected,
withdrawn,
or referred
out
380
462
640
640
412
22S
174
2,936
92
Granted
relief or
surplus
commodi-
ties only
189
22f5
37 1
435
213
141
109
1,687
92
Net num- Total cases
ber of cases receiving
open dur- I home
ing month relief '
564
398
880
1,131
1.129
930
614
6,037
508
574
652
723
645
514
491
282
•Including those who received shelter care before home relief during month.
«.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTINS OFFICE: 1940
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Relief applications — Transportation Service — Continued
1939
871
Month
Number
of appli-
cations
Received
or referred
in
Rejected,
withdrawn,
or referred
out
Granted
relief or
surplus
commodi-
ties only
Net num-
ber of cases
open dur-
ing month
Total cases
receiving
home
relief
268
249
aoo
224
328
281
215
243
175
147
209
164
272
228
256
253
294
356
272
244
155
208
535
580
87
61
146
82
105
121
134
108
100
74
178
235
151
137
158
143
195
206
199
171
76
132
52
92
678
763
816
807
992
976
907
883
741
714
624
512
625
February
691
742
715
907
875
July
826
779
September -
677
660
573
437
Total, 12 months
2,859
3,653
1,431
1,712
9,413
8,507
SHELTER
659
548
723
725
735
631
558
389
356
332
11
600
599
733
933
898
784
792
632
521
505
42
55
600
599
733
933
898
784
792
632
521
505
42
55
1,211
1,172
1,347
1,619
1,497
1,339
1,264
1,110
839
785
388
142
July
5,667
7,094
7,094
12, 713
406
372
309
221
136
210
237
257
255
242
220
235
142
187
194
87
50
141
85
80
108
79
100
124
239
210
196
127
76
103
193
136
175
111
116
133
641
887
898
762
668
679
700
640
604
564
556
528
762
809
830
654
571
558
July . -
617
554
534
495
475
458
Total, 12 months -
2,890
1,242
1,712
7,448
6, 7.59
SHELTER
784
654
955
1,312
657
481
619
698
496
462
586
620
784
654
955
1,312
657
481
619
698
496
462
586
620
1,258
1,160
1,331
1,955
1,316
943
979
1,003
966
847
1,013
1,240
April - --
Julv
Total, 12 months
8,324
8,324
14,011
260370— 40— pt. ^
872
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Relief applications — Transportation Service — Continued
1937
Month
Number
of appli-
cations
Received
or referred
in
Rejected,
withdrawn,
or referred
out
Granted
relief or
surplus
commodi-
ties only
Net num-
ber of cases
open dur-
ing month
Total cases
receiving
home
relief
250
258
335
289
291
348
255
306
152
212
340
407
134
127
103
106
202
103
72
215
56
98
96
111
147
146
203
181
153
175
162
13S
120
116
173
244
842
1,006
1,082
1,123
906
865
800
743
683
674
633
708
788
918
985
976
768
708
July
668
619
564
539
524
650
Total, 12 months
3,443
1,423
1,958
10, 065
8,707
SHELTER
948
562
831
756
716
601
420
274
292
526
840
975
521
341
555
321
559
601
420
274
292
526
840
975
992
1,143
1,128
1,198
866
1,167
895
638
570
764
1,053
1,354
July
7,741
6,225
11,768
'Number of home relief cases active at Tratispoi'tation Service from January
1937 through June 19-lfO, tvith commitments
Month
Cases
Commit-
ments
Month
Cases
Commit-
ments
1937
19.37
January... . _
788
$23, 775. 96
December:
February. ....
918
985
976
28, 170. 09
29, 766. 15
24. 302. 17
Interstate
Intrastate.
Chicago residents...
.. 436
__ 148
.. 66
650
March . -
May:
$15,117.55
Interstate
.. 646
1938
Intrastate
__ 34
January;
Chicago residents...
.. 88
Interstate
.. 500
768
22, 051. 65
Intrastate
__ 190
June:
Chicago residents...
._ 72
Interstate
.. 576
762
21,949.85
Chicago residents. _-
.. 132
February:
708
16, 819. 60
Interstate
_. 527
July:
Intrastate
_- 213
Interstate
.. 531
Chicago residents...
.. 68
Intrastate
-- 60
809
23, 366. 39
Chicago residents.-.
.. 77
March:
668
18, 680. 87
Interstate
.. 527
August:
Intrastate
__ 216
Interstate ...
.. 462
Chicago residents...
._ 87
Chicago residents...
.. 157
• — —
830
24, 598. 10
619
16, 367. 20
April:
September:
Interstate
399
Interstate
._ 412
Intrastate
.- 178
Intrastate.
.. 107
Chicago residents...
.- 77
Chicago residents...
.- 45
654
17, 903. 55
564
12, 625. 13
May:
October:
Interstate
.. 337
Interstate
.. 381
Intrastate
.- 166
Intrastate
.. 113
Chicago residents. .-
.. 68
Chicago residents...
.. 45
571
14, 589. 44
539
10,449.47
June:
November:
Interstate.
.. 336
Interstate
._ 383
Intrastate
.. 160
Intrastate
.. 114
Chicago residents...
.. 62
Chicago residents..
.. 47
544
13, 390. 04
558
13,521.19
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
87a
Number of home relief cases active at Transportation Service from Jannartf
1937 through June 19)0, tmth commitments — Continued
Month
1938— Continued
July:
Interstate 395
Intrastate 148
Chicago residents 74
August:
Interstate 348
Intrastate 151
C h icago residents 55
September:
Interstate 328
Intrastate 156
Chicago residents 50
October:
Interstate 287
Intrastate 147
Chicago residents 61
November:
Interstate 274
Intrastate 136
Chicago residents 65
December:
Interstate 266
Intrastate 149
Chicago residents 43
1939
January:
Interstate 286
Intrastate 272
Chicago residents 67
Cases
617
475
625
Commit-
ments
$14, 026. 13
16, 132. 13
13, 731. 05
12, 334. 57
13, 036. 08
12, 378. 53
13, 748. 45
Month
1939— Continued
February
March
April:
Interstate 335
Intrastate 270
Chicago residents 110
May
June
JuJy:
i Intrastate 336
Interstate 294
Chicago residents 37
August
September.
October
November,
December..
January. -
February-
March
April
May
June
Cases
691
742
715
733
608
559
548
442
322
398
455
534
614
535
431
Commit-
ments
$18, 675. 2S
19, 279. 56
18,844.72'
17, 203. 09
16, 620. 3$
12, 638. 44
13, 722. 81
11,584.41
12, 155. 41
11, 140.6t
7, 624. IS
11, 027. I*
13, 886. 58.
16, J38.6&
18, 111.2&
16, 206.8S>
12,703.9*.
Number of shelter and parkicay lodge cases active at Transportation Sermce
from January 1937 through October 1939
1937 C'ase.s
January 992
February 1, 143
March 1, 228
April 1. 198
May:
Interstate 742
Intrastate 7
Chicago residents 117
866
June ;
Interstate 1, (MG
Chicago residents 121
1,167
July
Interstate 758
Intrastate 5
Chicago residents 132
895
1937 — Continued Casesf
August :
Interstate 51^
Chicago residents 119
63»
September :
Interstate 455'
Intrastate 10
Chicago residents 10&
570
October :
Interstate 63S»
Intrastate M
Chicago residents 111
TSf
November : l, 053}.
December l, 354
874
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Number of shelter and parkway lodge cases active at Transportation Service
from January 1937 through October 1939 — Contimied
1938 Cases
January 1. 258
February 1, 160
March 1. 331
April 1, 955
May 1, 316
June 943
July :
Interstate 844
Intrastate 1
Chicago I'esidents 133
978
August :
Interstate
Intrastate
Chicago residents-
862
4
137
1,003
1938— Continued
November :
Interstate
Intrastate
Chicago residents
Cases
865
10
138
1,013
September 966
October :
Interstate
Intrastate
Chicago residents-
713
1
133
847
December 1, 240
1939
January :
Interstate 1, 0a5
Intrastate 3
Chicago residents 143
1,211
February 1, 172
March 1, 347
April :
Intrastrate , 14
Interstate 1,456
Chicago residents 149
1,619
May 1, 671
June 1, 515
July 1, 423
August 1, 281
September 957
October 897
Table I. — Number of cases and persons returned to legal settlement during 1940
and emimeration of expenditures involved— Chicago Relief Administration —
Transportation Service
Average
cost per
case
Months
Total
January
February
March
April
May
5
9
$102. 34
93.84
5.50
3.00
1
2
2
5
1
1
1
1
Total
$20. 47
$14. 70
2.00
2.00
$47. 88
2.50
$15. 65
$15. Rl
1.00
1.00
Table II. — Number of persons returned in 19JfO to their legal settlements in the
order of their home States and countries — Chicago Relief Administration — •
Transportation Service
State :
Alabama _
Arkansas.
Total Total
persons State : persons
3 Mississippi 2
1 Mexico 3
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
875
Table III. — Number of persons retio'ned to their legal settletnent 'by States and
countries in order of frequency
Num'ber of
State : persons
Arkansas 1
Mexico 3
'Number of
persons
State :
Alabama 3
Mississippi 2
Table I. — Number of cases and persons returned to legal settlement during 1939
and enumeration of expenditures involved — Chicago Relief Administration —
Transportation Service
Average
cost per
case
Months
Total
January
February
March
April
May
Cases -
355
584
$7, 924. 69
7, 354. 89
52.20
386. 60
63.50
68.00
46
81
32
54
34
54
24
49
40
Persons - -- -
62
Total
$22. 32
Train fare
$1, 189. 07
4.40
59.60
6.00
$751. 39
1.00
38.25
8.00
$617. 76
.75
39.75
3.00
$536. 65
.50
33.25
6.00
$824. 38
16.15
31.50
5.50
Months-
Continued
June
July
August
Septem-
ber
October
Novem-
ber
Cases . .
40
76
$823. 72
25
39
$397. 59
2.00
18.50
6.00
8.00
47
74
$867. 76
26.65
57.40
11.00
20.00
35
41
$533. 21
27
58
$710. 63
.50
26.35
10.00
5
6
Train fare
$102. 73
.25
46.25
5.00
33.00
31.50
3.00
7.00
4.25
Table II. — Number of persons returned in 1939 to their legal settlements in the
order of their home States and countries — Chicago Relief Administration — ■
Transportation Service
State: Totalpersons
Alabama 23
Arizona
Arkansas 19
California 24
Colorado 3
Connecticut 4
Delaware
District of Columbia 5
Florida 7
Georgia 16
Illinois 33
Indiana 15
Iowa 11
Idaho
Kansas 9
Kentucky l 22
Louisiana 38
Maine
Maryland 3
Massachusetts 6
Michigan 19
Minnesota 7
Mississippi 52
Missouri 41
Montana 2
Nebraska 1
New Hampshire
State— Continued. Totalpersons
New Jersey 15
New Mexico
New York 36
Nevada
North Carolina 7
North Dakota
Ohio 28
Oklahoma 4
Oregon 2
Pennsylvania 31
Rhode Island
South Carolina 2
South Dakota
Tennessee 30
Texas 29
Utah 1
Vermont
Virginia 4
Wasliington 7
West Virginia 9
Wisconsin 9
Wyoming
Country:
Germany 4
Scotland 5
Canada 1
Mexico
•876
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Table III. — Number of persons returned in 1939 to their legal settlement hy
States and countries in order of frequency — Chicago Relief Administration,
Transportation Service
Xumber
State: of persons
Mississippi 52
Missouri 41
Louisiana 38
New York 36
Illinois 33
Penasylvania 31
Tennessee 30
Texas 29
Ohio 28
California 24
Alabama 23
Kentucky 22
Arkansas 19
Michigan 19
Georgia 16
Indiana 15
New Jersey 15
West Virginia 9
Wisconsin 9
Kansas 9
State — Continued.
Florida _ ._ _
Number
of persons
7
Minnesota
North Carolina
7
.-- -- 7
Washington
Massachusetts
District of Columbia
7
6
. -__ 5
Connecticut
Oklahoma
4
. - - 4
Virginia. _
4
Colorado _ . .
.- ._ 3
Maryland. _
. ._ 3
Montana . .
... - 2
Oregon _ _ _
2
South Carolina
Nebraska _-
2
1
Utah.
1
Country:
Scotland _
5
Germany
4
Mexico __ . _
3
Canada 1
1
Table I. — Number of cases and persons returned to legal settlement during 1938
and enumeration of expenditures involved— Chicago Relief Administration,
Transportation Service
Average
cost per
ease
Months
Total
January
February
March
April
May
Cases - -
529
970
$13, 046. 10
12, 278. 00
14.30
644. 55
109. 25
49
93
51
114
72
162
38
82
24
45
Total
$24.66
$1, 257. 16
2.00
62.25
18.50
$1, 336. 55
$1,684.73
2.50
90.15
6.00
$741. 79
.60
37.15
7.00
$500. 71
2.90
79.80
10.00
28.00
5.00
Months
June
July
August
Septem-
ber
October
Novem-
ber
Decem-
ber
27
52
$566. 20
2.00
39.75
15.75
42
74
$803.69
1.50
40.25
9.00
49
91
$1,421.70
.75
85.00
16.00
53
70
$904. 55
1.50
59.25
5.00
49
71
$1, 357. 86
41
64
$895.93
34
52
$807. 13
.55
43.75
6.00
46.25
3.00
32.95
8.00
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
877
TABI.B II. — Nitmher of persons returned in 1938 to their legal settlements in the
order of their home States and countries — Chicago Relief Administration-
Transportation Service
Total
State: ?«"""»
Alabama 48
Arizona 5
Arkansas 20
California 49
Colorado 18
Connecticut 4
Delaware
District of Colunibia 2
Florida 16
Georgia 10
Illinois 59
Indiana 27
Iowa 9
Idaho 7
Kansas 24
Kentucky 16
Louisiana 29
Maine
Maryland 3
Massachusetts 1
Michigan 47
Minnesota 25
Mississippi 73
Missouri 50
Montana 10
New Hampshire 1
Total
State— Continued. persons
New Jersey 15
New Mexico 1
New York 47
Nevada
Nebraska 14
North Carolina 6
North Dakota 4
Ohio 36
Oklahoma 12
Oregon 4
Pennsylvania 33
Rhode Island 4
South Carolina
South Dakota 2
Tennessee 41
Texas 92
Utah 4
Vermont 1
Virginia 8
Washington 28
West Virginia 6
Wisconsin 30
Wyoming
Country:
Germany 3
Scotland 6
Table III. — Number of persons returned in 1938 to their legal settlement by
States and countries in order of frequency — Chicago Relief Administration —
Transportation Service
Nuvibtr
State: of persons
Texas . 92
Mississippi 73
Illinois 59
Pennsylvania 53
Missouri 50
California 49
Alabama 48
Michigan 47
New York 47
Tennessee 41
Ohio 36
Wisconsin 30
Louisiana 29
Washington 28
Indiana 27
Minnesota 25
Kansas 24
Arkansas 20
Colorado 18
Florida 16
Kentucky 16
New Jersey 15
Nebraska 14
Number
State: "/ versons
Oklahoma 12
Georgia 10
Montana 10
Iowa 9
Virginia 8
Idaho 7
North Carolina 6
West Virginia 6
5
4
4
4
4
4
3
2
2
1
1
1
1
6
Germany 3
Arizona.
Connecticut
North Dakota
Oregon
Rhode Island
Utah
Maryland
District of Columbia-
South Dakota
Massachusetts
New Hampshire
Vermont
New Mexico
Country:
Scotland
17;
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
In comparing the figures on total cases receiving home relief, included in the
table for relief applications with the figures showing home relief cases with com-
mitments, the discrepancy in number is caused by the difference in interpretation
of the status of the Parkway Lodge cases.
Beginning in Rlay 1939 the Parkway Lodge cases were considered to be receiv-
ing home relief. Previous to this they were included in the shelter count.
Since no Parkway Lodge commitments are charged to Transportation Service
they are eliminated in the table of home relief cases with commitments.
TESTIMONY OF LEO M. LYONS^Resumed
Mr. Parsons. Yes. I liave known Mr. Lyons for a good many years,
and I know he has given a lot of thought and study to this problem.
Congressman Ciu-tis, I believe you have Mr. Lyons' case assigned to
you.
Mr. Curtis. Mr, Lyons, we have gone over your statement that has
been submitted for the record. This being a Nation-wide investigation
conducted while Congress is in session, we will have to rely upon the
written record, but there are a few questions I would like to ask you.
RELIEF IN CHICAGO PRIOR TO POOR LAW OF JULY 19 39
What was the policy of the administration of relief in Chicago with
regard to migratory persons and families prior to this poor law passed
by the legislature in July 1939 ?
* Mr. Lyons. The general policy was to treat migrants as other appli-
cants were treated, or as residents were treated, making provision, so
far as possible, for the return of persons to their place of legal resi-
dence. Possible exceptions to that were the single unattached employ-
able individuals.
For some time we restricted that period to approximately 7 days.
Where it was evident that persons were coming in primarily for the
purpose of seeking employment, we felt that opportunity certainly
ought to be granted. However, at tlie same time, we felt we ought not
to develop a program which would cause an accumulation of large
numbers of employable persons, and thereby further flood the labor
market.
Mr. Curtis. Under those policies, what was the extent of the non-
resident problem as indicated by the number of persons applying at
your intake department, and the number of cases extended relief dur-
ing the average month ?
Mv. Lyons. That is covered, I believe, in the report. For example, in
1937 the records show^ that 3,443 family cases were received and 7,741
shelter cases, or single individuals. In 1938 the records show 2,890
family cases received and 8, 324 shelter cases. In 1939 there were 3,653
family cases and 7,094 shelter cases, or an average, approximately, of
800 to 900 cases per month.
]Mr. Curtis. From the standpoint of migration, what is the signifi-
cance of your statistics regarding nonresidents returned to their legal
residence prior to July 1939^
Mr. Lyons. I think the significant thing, as is pointed out in the
report, is that of some 970 cases which were returned to their place of
legal residence, 59 of those returned to places of legal residence in the
State which indicates that the problem is one of interstate rather than
intrastate migration.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 879
Mr. Curtis. Did you have much trouble getting these people to re-
turn to other States ?
Mr. Lyons. No. I think in general we have had a very cooperative
working relationship in returning these people.
NEED FOR UNIFORM SETTLEMENT L.\WS
Mr. Curtis. Is there need for farther uniformity among States in
their requirements ?
Mr. Lyons. Well, it seems that there should be a uniform settle-
ment law and uniform method of meeting the needs of persons in
these various categories. I am convinced that people do not migrate
because of relief. People go to better their conditions, because of
their unemployment. Therefore it would seem, as was pointed out
in earlier discussion here, that some plan should be developed, and
I think through employment and employment opportunities, to pro-
vide for the needs of the persons where they are, and not force them
to leave their localities in order to seek, perhaps, better opportuni-
ties — in their opinion, at least — for employment.
I think employment is the factor that causes people to migrate,
not because people want to move, and not because they want better
relief from some other community. I am convinced that employ-
ment is the greatest factor that causes people to migrate.
jMr. Curtis. Do you have any ligures with respect to the nonresi-
dent relief clients you have taken care of, as to where they came from,
whether they were unemployed city or town dwellers, or whether
they were people forced oif the soil?
Mr. Lyons. I do not believe our figures would indicate that. At
least there is nothing readily at hand indicating the sources from
which thej came.
Mr. Curtis. Perhaps both factors would enter into it?
Mr. Lyons. I think in all likelihood, both factors. I think our
migratory laborer will be that type of person who works with a
construction gang on the railroad, or who perhaps works in the
harvest fields, traveling to and fro.
ILLINOIS POOR LAW OF JULY 19 39
Mr. Curtis. We have said something about the Illinois poor law,
or the amendment to it passed by the legislature in July 1939.
Mr. Lyons. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. It has been mentioned by several of the witnesses.
Mr. Lyons. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. What were the significant points to that law?
Mr. Lyons. Well, the part that is causing the most difficulty, and
has been the most difficult of interpretation is the one providing that
an applicant for relief must have been residing three years in the
municipality immediately preceding his application for relief.
Mr. Curtis. What brought about the enactment of that, Mr. Lyons?
What was in back of it?
g§Q INTERSTATE MIGRATION
ISIr. Lyons. In my opinion, it was a desire on the part of some
local overseers of the poor in the State of Illinois to restrict the
movement of people into the State, or into localities, and therefore
this legislation was drafted. I think it was not for the purpose of
affecting the State resident as the law now does, but rather to affect
those persons coming in from other States.
Mr. Parsons. Did the relief commission recommend such a law?
Mr. Lyons. The relief commission did not. It had nothing to do
with the drafting of the legislation.
Mr. Curtis. From your experience, how adequate are the resources
of public and private agencies in the community in meeting the
needs of migratory destitute persons?
Mr. Lyons. There are two problems to be considered there: One
is the adequacy of relief funds, both State and local, to meet the
normal relief problem, and they are not adequate ; two, the adequacy
of private resources to pick up this load of the migratory persons
which, back in the earlier days prior to the passage of this law, cost
the public agencies approximately $15,000 per month.
You can readily see that this legislation, having shifted that load
to the private agencies supported to a large extent by community
iunds and; from other public subscription, the private agencies
could not adequately carry that load. There should be available
approximately $16,000 per month, in my opinion, to meet this normal
problem.
Mr. Curtis. $15,000 a month for what territory, just Chicago?
Mr. Lyons. Just Chicago, I have reference to now.
Mr. Curtis. What is the situation with regard to the tax load of
both Chicago and the State of Illinois ?
Mr. Lyons. I do not quite understand your question, and your
reference to the term '*tax load." You mean, the ability of Chicago
to raise funds for relief?
Mr. Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Lyons. That is prescribed by law. It provides that the local
governmental unit shall make a 3-mill property tax levy, a 3-inill
levy against the assessed valuation. Therefore, under the law, the
local governmental unit cannot go beyond that in raising resources.
RECOMMEN DATIONS
Mr. Curtis. What suggestions do you have to offer to this com-
mittee either for State governments or the Federal Government to
cope with the jjroblem of interstate migration of destitute persons?
Mr. Lyons. Let me say first that I think the committee is making
a very intelligent approach to this problem by trying to find out
the needs of people, I think perhaps in meeting the problem, too
great emphasis has been placed on the relief phase of it. I think
the needs of people in areas or in communities ought to be studied.
I think provision ought to be made to meet those needs in those
areas. That would be the first step.
Mr. Curtis. May I interrupt you right there, Mr. Lyons?
Mr. Lyons. Yes.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 881
Mr. Curtis. Will von explain the first step a little more? Will
you elaborate on it to a greater extent ^
Mr. Lyons. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Will you describe what you mean by meeting the needs
in the places where the people are?
Mr. Lyoxs. I mean this: The only way you can get at that prob-
lem is to get, as you have gotten, a statement from the people who
are aifected. I think that is a very sound approach. In that way
you are able to ascertain what the problem of that individual is.
Therefore, knowing what tliat problem is, whether it be a problem
of someone on the land, whether it be a problem such as we have
in the city of Chicago, of housing, or whether it be a problem of
industrial activity, then some steps should be taken to provide
through employment, insofar as possible, care for those people
wherever they might be. Therefore, if the problem in the South
was met in the South., it certainly would relieve the problem in the
Northern States.
Then, some provision should be made from Federal sources — 1
say from Federal sources, because the communities cannot carry
this load, in my opinion — some provision should be made from Fed-
eral sources to meet the need where the need exists and to the extent
that it exists. That does not mean a flat grant to every locality
or every State. It means ])aying the bill where the bill should be-
paid. That is where the people are. There should be, in my opinion,
some uniform settlement law. That would mean that a person
coming into any locality would know, or at least should know, what
he is confronted with before he is determined eligible. It would
seem then to go to the problem of the migrant.
We are always going to have them, and I think we should, per-
haps, but it seems to me there should be, perhaps under the Social
Security Board — I think that would be the logical place to house
this responsibility — provision for Federal support and supei-vision
of that program. That should either be done under the Security
Board, or by direct grants to the States to provide care on an ac-
ceptable basis for those persons who happen to be in need in the
States. That should take the form of aid to the States, but not in
the form of flat grants on a per capita basis.
Mr. Curtis. I think that that is all I have. Are there any other
questions ?
Mr. Parsons. You have been studying these problems a good many
years, have you not, Mr. L^^ons?
Mr. Lyons. I have for quite some time ; yes.
NEGRO migration TO CHICAGO
Mr. Parsons. Can you tell the committee something about the
migration of the colored people out of the South to the city of Chi-
cago which began back following the World War ?
]Mr. Lyons. I cannot tell you much about the definite effect, other
than the effect of increased industrial activity, naturally. It draws
people, whether they be colored or otherwise, into any locality. I
332 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
am inclined to believe too much stress has been placed upon th^.
effect of the colored person cominjL? into the city of Chicago.
The colored problem, of course, is an acute problem here, due to
restrictive covenants and other factors whereby they are restricted
in their place of abode and their method of living, which naturally
creates a very serious relief problem. I am of the opinion that not
only the problem of the colored person should be studied, but the
problem of all racial groups coming into any large metropolitan
area.
Mr. Parsons. What reason do you give for so many of the colored
people coming to Chicago in 1923, 1924, 1925, and 1926? We found
out at the hearings in Alabama that there was quite an exodus out
of the South among colored people to four or five States north of the
Ohio, and especially to the citv of Chicago, Can you give any reason
for it?
Mr. Lyons. Nothing, other than the employment opportunities
which may have occurred at that time in the large metropolitan
areas.
Mr. Parsons. After a few came, they still had relatives in the
South. They wrote back and forth and occasionally went back to
visit and brought recruits with them, is that what happened?
Mr. Lyons. I think it is only natural for any group that has
existed on a very low standard, that finds opportunities for employ-
ment which gives them a much more adequate subsistence, certainly
to want to spread that to their relatives or friends. The thing that
I am getting at is this : I think if the problem of the needs of the
persons had been met in the locality, that situation would not liave
occurred.
Mr. Parsons. And probably the labor market would have been
supplied here from other places?
Mr. Lyons. Other places, or persons who were in the locality. I
do not know to wdiat extent the migi'ation of personsi into an area
displaces people in that area. I know that it just depends on how
many people go from here to some place else.
Mr. Parsons. That is true. The southern Illinois territory which I
represent, of course, has a large population in the city of Chicago.
Their movement has been an intrastate movement. They have here
in the city of Chicago a Southern Illinois Club, and I understand
they have an attendance as high as 5,000 or 6,000 at their annual
outing everj^ J^^^', somewhere either here in the city of Chicago or
nearby.
Of course, the southern part of the State was the first part of the
State of Illinois to be settled, and as Chicago has grown, of course,
it has taken up a lot of our people from the South. It has likewise
taken people from Indiana, Wisconsin, Iowa, and perhaps Michigan
and other States.
Mr. Lyons. I think that is true.
FEDERAL AID TO STATES
Mr. Parsons. Do you have any concrete suggestions as to how
the Federal Government should apportion aid to the States if we
decide to do that?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 883
Mr. Lyons. No ; except that it should be on a need basis.
Mr. Parsons. You would not put it on a uniform basis?
Mr. Lyons. I do not think that is practical. The resources are
not uniform. The problems are not uniform. I think you have to
meet the needs on the basis of the needs.
Mr. Parsons. Of course, in certain localities the expense is greater
in caring for a person with the same standard than it is in other
parts of the country.
Mr. Lyons. The expense may be different, but you have as a prac-
tical matter the problem of actually meeting the need, whatever it is.
You were speaking of southern Illinois. There are many counties
in the southern part of the State where the ability to collect taxes
is so extremely low that no matter what standard you set up there,
they could not meet that standard. The resources just are not there,
in that locality.
Mr. Parsons. Would you expect the Federal Government to give
grants-in-aid to the States to take care of their own people, or just
to take care of the migrant destitute people?
Mr. Lyons. I think the big problem right now is to take care of
the migrant. That is the problem you are discussing. I have always
felt there should be Federal participation in the care of persons on
direct relief as well as Federal participation in those other categories.
Because of the fact that an individual is employable, but does not fall
within the categories and cannot get a job, that does not mean that his
family cannot be just as hungry, just as naked, and just as cold as
someone else's family who happens to fall in one of the categories.
Mr. Parsons. You mentioned awhile ago about keeping the people
where arey are, with Government aid. Out in the Dust Bowl area,
somewhat removed from us here in the INIiddle "West, the soil was no
longer productive. It would be a very difficult matter to keep those
people there. There is nothing for them to produce, and hence they
have no income. They must go somewhere. In a lot of instances it
is very true that the Government might do something to rehabilitate
them in their own locality.
Do you have any suggestions to make as to what the Government
might do in that respect, in this area here?
Mr. Lyons. I just raise the question as to whether or not it would
be more difficult to keep the land where it is than it would be to keep
the people there. I think if the land were kept there, you would have
no difficulty with the people. I would say, therefore, that some long-
time plan should be evolved, in an attempt to settle these people, or
at least partially meet the problem. Any expenditure of funds to
make the innnediate surroundings more attractive to these people
where they are living under more normal conditions should be under-
taken, rather than trying to meet them after they move.
Mr. Parsons. Of course, in the Dust Bowl area, the only way we
can keep the land there is to keep it covered with some kind of vege-
tation, grass, and so forth. However, up in the Northwest, in the
Dakotas and through that region, the water level fell. They could
not even keep grasses and vegetation there. That happened to be
the work of nature. That is bevond the control of man.
884
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
I understand, however, it is coming back, to some extent, and that
the northwest water level is being restored. Of course, it would in-
volve an enormous expenditure of money by the Federal Govern-
vment to undertake to do those things in every State at one time.
However, it miglit be money well invested in the future. It might
be a good investment for the future.
Sometimes it is a good investmeiit to give relief, or to give W. P. A.
employment, because you do keep up the morale of the citizen. You
prevent him from becoming a -'red" or a radical or a Communist.
Mr. Lyons. Yes.
My. Parsons. You prevent riots and bloodshed which would un-
doubtedly follow if the Federal Government did not step into the
picture.
Mr. Lyons. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. Do you have any other suggestions to make ?
Mr. Lyons. I think I have covered this problem of migration about
tis thoroughly as I am able. I do not think I have any further com-
ment to make on it. , t • i i
Mr. Parsons. You have presented a very fine picture. I wish the
committee had time to have these papers read at length. Of course,
the committee members will go through these statements very thor-
oughly, not only now, but again before the report is made. You have
made a great contribution, I think, to the cause.
Mr. Lyons. I appreciate the o])portunity of appearing before you.
If we can be of any further help, do not hesitate to call on us.
Mr. Parsons. Thank you very much. Are there any other ques-
tions?
HANKE CASE ON LOSS OF RESIDENCE
Mr. Sparkman. I have one more question. I was very much in-
terested in the plight of Mr. and Mrs. Hanke.
Mr. Lyons. Yes. I am having that record brought to my desk, so
I can get the facts in the case.
(The following case record was later submitted by Mr. Lyons in
regard to the case of Mr. and Mrs. George Hanke :)
Memoeanduji
August 22, 1940.
To : Mr. Leo M. Lyons, commissioner of relief, Chicago Relief Administration.
From- Mr. Thomas Lavin, administrator, Transportation Service.
Subject: Hanlie, George (6-16-03), Hanke, Lillian (10-4-13), Hanlie, Jeanine
(3-31-40), 12 South Loomis Street.
In accordance with your request, we are submitting the facts presented in the
record of Hanlie, George-Lillian, victim witnesses at the public hearing on August
19, 1940, of the Congressional Committee Investigating Interstate Migration of
Destitute Citizens. .
The Hanlce family received direct relief from the public agency in Chicago inter-
mittently from December 29, 1934, to Augmst 1939. The case was closed in August
1939, because the family moved and their present address was unknown. The
worker had visited on July 3, 1939. and had learned that Mrs. Hanke had gone to
Minneapolis with her brother-in-law. The household goods had been moved to
Mr. Hanke's brother's home in Bensonville, III.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION §85
On November 24, 1P39, Transportation Service received an intercity inquiry from
tlie division of public relief, department of public welfare, Minneapolis, Minn., in
wliicli authorization to return the family to Chicago was requested. In answer to
our request for information concerning the Hanke's intention to establish a domi-
cile in INIinneapolis, we learned that Mrs. Lillian Hanlie left Chicago on May 31,
1939, with Norman Aydt, the widowed husband of her sister, and that she had gone
with liim to St. Louis Park, Minn., to take care of liis children. This had been
with the knowledge and consent of Mr. Hanke. Mr. Aydt and Mrs. Hanke wrote
Mr. Hanke to come to Minnesota for a prospective job. This employment did not
materialize, but in September 1939 Mr. Hanke secured work in Minneapolis, which
lasted until November 1939.
When the agency questioned Mr. Hanke about where he intended to establish
a domicile, he replied, "Wherever I can find a job." The family expressed a desire
to return to Chicago.
In our letter of February 16, 1940, we advised tlie agency that in reviewing the
case we found that according to the present interpretation of the Illinois residence
law Mr. Hanke had lost liis Chicago residence, since he had moved to Minneapolis
and secured employment there, and had regarded that locality as his liome. From
his own statement he apparently intended to make his home wherever lie was
working. Consequently, Chicago could not autliorize his return.
On aiarch 7, 1940. we received a telegram from the Minneapolis agency inform-
ing us that the Hanke family was arriving in Chicago on that date and that
provision for overnight care had been made.
Mr. Hanke applied for relief at Transiwrtation Service the following day. His
application was accepted for surplus connnodities only. He was subsequently
referred to Salvation Army and received aid from them. On April 19, 1940, Salva-
tion Army advised that Mr. Hanke had obtained iirivate employment, and our case
was closed.
Thomas Lavin,
Transportation Administrator.
RN : mk
cc : Mrs. Clara Paul Paige.
Mr. Sparkman. It does seem to me that is a terrible condition to
exist as among the various States, ^Yhere a person loses settlement in
one place long before he can possibly take it up in another place. It
is a very serious situation.
Mr. Lyons. Yes. It is a very serious situation and one that we have
been much concerned about. Whether there was ever any evidence
of intent to return to Chicago, or whether the case was closed because
of securing employment in some locality, I do not know. We have
maintained a staff of persons in our legal department to analyze those
cases in the light of opinions from the attorney general.
Mr. Sparkman. In this State, does it depend upon intention to estab-
lish residence?
Mr. Lyons. There is no mention of intent at all in any of the legis-
lation. It merely says that they must have resided 3 years immedi-
ately preceding the application for relief. However, as a usual pro-
cedure we can find, either through the retaining of a room, the storage
of baggage, or something of that nature, an intent to return, and we
have tried to be just as fair as we could and have tried to go as far
as we could go in the long run.
WORK RELIEF
Mr. Sparkman. Of course, I know that one great discouragement
to seeking private employment by W. P. A. employees used to be the
fact that if they were once off the roll, they had a very difficult time
886 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
getting back. Congress, of course, has sought to remedy that. It
seems to me that in administering relief, W. P. A. or any of these
works which are supposed to help take care of the needy, encourage-
ment ought to be given toward seeking private employment, even for
a short time.
Mr. Lyons. We do that. It has been our policy for a number of
years, both on W. P. A. and relief, to reinstate "immediately upon
reapplication upon loss of employment, should it prove to be tem-
porary. We then investigate the case as to need, after the case has
been reinstated.
Mv. Sparkman. Thank you.
Mr. Parsons. Do you have many employables on direct relief in the
city of Chicago?
Mr. Lyons. We have now% as I recall the figures, as of last Thurs-
day, about 24,000 employables certified and unassigned to W. P. A.
projects. Those are persons who cannot be strictly classed as — well,
we will put it this way: Those are persons who are acceptable for
em))loyment. We are trying to get away from the terminology or
designation of anybody as "unemployable." That is a matter of
degree. That is the terminology we are now^ using, "acceptable for
employment."
We are endeavoring to get everyone we possibly can into private
employment. We have no opportunity to place them on W. P. A.,
but, as Mayor Kelly pointed out this morning, through the very fine
cooperation of the State relief commission and the city of Chicago
and other groups, we liave developed a plan for the use of relief funds
to transfer these employable people over into jobs. I am very defi-
nitely of the opinion that a person in any kind of a job is much more
likely to secure private employment and stick tlian he is if he goes
right from direct relief and long-continued unemployment into a job.
I think there is a period of adjustment there in going through this
period of transition from relief into private employment.
Mr. Parsons. So far as the number that are employables is con-
cerned, have you ever considered a city project of some kind to have
them work out their relief money?
My. Lyons. We have two programs; in fact, we have three programs
operating in the city of Chicago. One is a work-relief program
whereby there are certain minor functions of relief administratioii to
which we can assign people.
Then in the community we have a law^ which is on the books of the
State of Illinois, sometimes referred to as the Johnson law, which re-
quires that the overseer of the poor shall refer able-bodied people to
the superintendent of highways, road commissioner, and so forth, and
that he may put them to work. We developed a plan whereby able-
bodied persons on relief in the city of Chicago are referred to the
commissioner of public works. They are then assigned to work at
the going rate of pay for common labor, 50 cents an hour. They worlv
out a portion of what they receive. They do not work it out com-
pletely, because we have endeavored to spread that w^ork opportunity
as far as possible. They are reimbursed for the day at 50 cents an
hour, and that reimbursement is considered as any other income, com-
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 8S7
incr into the department, as ajiainst their relief, and that then supple-
ments it. This has been particularly effective because, ^f X*^" '^^^'^^^''
under the W. P. A. rulinc:, aliens cannot be employed on \V. T. A.
Mr. Parsons. That is rio^ht. • i i i 14^
Mr. Lyons. A check reveals that there were 111 the neighborhood ot
8,000 to 10.000 aliens during a given period of time.
Mr. Parsons. Do you have a considerable number ot aliens, a con-
siderable alien population on relief here now, on direct rehef ?
Mr Lyons We are making a check. As of February, I believe,
in considering some 8G,00() or 87,000 employables for transfer to
W. P. A., and for processing, there were about that number ot aliens
that showed up on our rolls, about 8,000 to 10,000. • t .
Mr. Parsons. Have they been on relief for a considerable period ot
Mr. Lyons. Some have, and some have not. Our relief rolls have
a very rapid turn-over. .4-5
Mr PERSONS. Are a lot of those aliens newcomers to America?
Mr*. Lyons. No. I think comparatively few. We are making a
study of the situation, so we will have the facts on it.
Mr. Parsons. Of course, you have practically every race under the
sun rejDresented here in rather substantial numbers.
Mr. Lyons. Yes. ..,,,<> ^i 1
Mr Parsons. Do you agree with me that it is better tor the morale
and responsibility of the individual to be made to work out part of
his relief money? .
Mr. Lyons. I do not think "to be made" is proper terminology. 1
think they ought to be given the opportunity. I think that is the
intent of what you said.
Mr. Parsons." Yes. , . ^ ^ j
Mr. Lyons. I think every dollar of any kind of money we spend
in providing emplovment is a much more justifiable expenditure than
anv dollar we spend on direct relief. We have purely dependent
cases which have to be provided for, where there are no employable
people. „ . X' ^1 ui
I am sure that at least 95 percent, if not 99 percent ot the able-
bodied people on relief would much rather work for what they get
than take it without working.
Mr. Parsons. Are there any other questions, gentlemen?
(No response.) • 1 i u a
The statement which vou have submitted, Mr. Lyons, entitled A
Statement on Interstate' Migration of Destitute Citizens," has been
received as part of the record.
Mr. Parsons. The committee wishes to thank you very much, Mr.
Lyons. You have been very helpful to us.
'Mr. Lyons. I am glad to have had the opportunity to appear be-
fore you.
(Whereupon, Mr. Lyons was excused.)
Mr. Parsons. The next witness will be Mr. Shils.
260370— 40— pt. 3 6
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
TESTIMONY OF EDWAED SHILS, OF THE DEPARTMENT OF
SOCIOLOGY, UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO
Mr. Parsons, Will you state your name and address to the reporter
for the record, please, Mr. Shils.
Mr. Shils. Edward Shils, University of Chicago.
Mr. Parsons. I understand that you have a paper to present which
was i^repared by Dr. Wirth.
Mr. Shils. Yes.
(The paper referred to is as follows:)
Statement by Louis Wikth, Professok of Sociology. Unh-eksity of Chicago,
Chicago, III.
(Presented by Edward Shils)
historical aspects of urban migration in the midwest
The problem of interstate migration did not loom large in American history
as long as we had a vast unexplored and open frontier and as long as much of
our territory was not organized in the form of sovereign States. Once the
major portion of the land area was claimed by hidividnal owners, and that part
of it which remained in the public domain — either Federal or State — was no
longer freely granted to homesteaders and settlers and the railroads, the prob-
lem of interstate migration emerged.
The problem today is less, or only to a very minor degree, a problem, of the
search for land than it is a problem of the search for jobs. Indeed, the search
for land and a place of settlement is only rarely nowadays the object of migra-
tion. As in the case of the mass migrations from the Southwest to the Pacific
coast, which have been dramatized in recent years, the relative exhaustion of
natural resources in one area and their relative abundance in the other no
longer has as a consequence the transfer of ownership of land but is largely a
matter of the search for agricultural labor jobs. In this sense, the migration
of a population from one agricultural area to another is fundamentally no
different from the migration of agricultural people to industrial centers or the
movement from one city to another. Inequalities between localities and regions
in economic opportunity, rather than the quest for land or the search for
adventure, are the basic elements in modern interstate migration in the United
States.
The rapid growth of the population and the phenomenal accumulation of
wealth in the United States could not have been accomplished without the almost
unlimited freedom to move from one area to another, which the settlers in this
country enjoyed until recently. Freedom to move is perhaps the most basic of
human liberties. It is the very antithesis of bondage or slavery. For the
perpetuation of our institutions, therefore, it is essential that this freedom be
preserved. Without it, our national union could not long survive. If the States
and localities should be allowed to undermine this freedom by the erection of
barriers, the unhappy prospect of the crystallization of separate civic bodies
hostile to and jealous of one another is not an unlikely one in this country.
The streams of migration in American history and their effect upon the de-
velopment of this country have been analyzed by a number of students. The
most recent of these is the Study on Migration and Economic Opportunity, edited
by Prof. Carter Goodrich. Our own studies have been confined to migrations as
they have affected the development of cities (see Our Cities, Their Role in the
National Economy, a report to the National Resources Committee ; and Popula-
tion Statistics, Urban Data, also by the National Resources Committee) and the
studies concerning the development of the metropolitan area of Chicago.
The central fact that emerges from these studies is tliat, with the virtual cutting
off of European immigration since shortly after the World War, our cities have
continued to grow by absorbing the surphis population of the American country-
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 889
side Thus duriiig the decade 18()(>-70, foreign-horn persons made up 48 percent
of tiie population increase in Chicago ; the foreign-born constituted 41 permit ot
the total increase from 1900 to I'.HO. while of the total increases from 1910 to
1930 thev made up only r, percent. This makes it obvious indeed that the growth
of Chicago is due to movements from within the United States. Irom 1880 to
1890 -M percent of Chicago's increase was due to the movement into the city ot
persons boni elsewhere in the United States. In the decade 1920-30 60 percent
of the increase was due to movements from elsewhere in the United States into
Chicago (cf tables I and II). From 1890 to 1930 the number of native whites
in Chicago who were born in Indiana and Wisconsin increased just as much as
did those born in Illinois (less than 300 percent), while those Chicagoans from
Michigan Missouri, Iowa, and Kentucky increased by 400 percent, which shows
that Chicago was drawing increasingly on these last four States to build up
its population— and its prosperity (cf. table IV). . , ^ . , . , ^v.
The development of great metropolitan cities and of the industries which they
harbor like the building of the railroads in an earlier epoch and the original
settlement of the land, is intimately bound up with the continued free movement
of people from areas of lesser to greater opportunity. If we examine the three
important industrial States right in this part of the country— Illinois, Indiana,
and Wisconsin— we find that, as industry grew in these States, their populations
came to an increasing extent to be made up of people— native Americans— from
other States Thus, in the decade 1900-1910 only 2 percent of the native Americans
in these States were born in other States : in the next decade the percentage grew
to 13 percent; and in the last decade only a little less than one-third of tlie
whole native population of these States came from somewhere else in this country
(cf table III, columns 5 and 6). As educational opportunities, cultural opportuni-
ties and economic security have been diffused more uniformly over the whole
country, some of the incentives for migration in an earlier period are disappearing.
There remains, however, the incentive of the search for greater economic oppor-
tunity There is no prospect that this will be equally distributed throughout the
country considering the inequality of the resources and the condition of our
markets. There will, therefore, be continued migration provided the barriers to
it are not made insuperable.
There has been another trend of migration — from the central cities outward to
the periphery of the cities, often crossing State lines, as is the case especially with
the great metropolitan centers. This movement has resulted not so much in the
dispersion of the urban population over the countryside as it has resulted in the
redistribution of a portion of the urban population along the periphery of the
metropolitan centers but close enough to them to be an integral part of metro-
politan life.
In the earliest period of American histoi-y the migrant was the frontiersman,
the homesteader, and the settler. In a suliseqiient period he was the ho])o and
migratory worker. But. as Nels Anderson has shown in his volume about to be
published (Men (m the Move), the hobo is no more. This implies not so much
that migration has ceased but that it is taking a new form. The automol)ile and
hard roads have changed the technique of migration. The depression, which has
been Nation-wide in character and from which we have not wholly recoverf^d. has
called forth governmental means to mitigate the problems incident to aimless
wandering of youth, adults, and families. It is important that these means be
expanded and' brought into congruence with a farsighted policy which, while
it recognizes special local and regional proldems, is formulated in the interests
of the national welfare. Nothing would contribute more to a rational policy
designed to minimize hardships, frictions between communities, and violent out-
bursts in localities calculated to offer resistance to invasion than an adequate na-
tional information service on employment opportunities and the further expansion
of our employment services to bring work seekers and job opportunities into a
more effective relationship with one another. The maintenance, and perhaps the
extension in certain directions, of social-security measures will stabilize population
to some extent. Meanwhile, it is important in the interests of the maintenance of
a free-labor market, the prevention of the emergence of a caste order in American
society, and the preservation of our institutions, that both official and unofficial
measures to prevent the fre(> movement of Americans within the confines of the
United States be iniiibited by effective legislation.
890
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Table I. — Percentage of total increase of Chicago popnlation coming from each
source, 1860-1930 '
Total in-
crease in
popula-
tion
Increase in—
Decade
Foreign-
born popu-
lation
Colored
popula-
tion
White
popula-
tion from
United
States
Births
over
deaths
1860 to 1870
100
100
100
100
100
100
100
47.8
29.4
49.3
23.4
41.4
4.6
5.4
33.4
46.3
29.0
45.0
10.4
45.0
38.4
15.9
24.4
20.1
28.9
24.2
38.0
34.5
1870 to 1880
1880 to 1890
1.6
2.7
3.0
12.4
21.7
1890 to 1900
1900 to 1910
1910 to 1920
1920 to 1930 _
1 Homer Hoyt, One Hundred Years of Land Values in Chicago, University of Chicago Press, 1933.
Table II. — Sources of increase of Chicago population, 1S30-1930 ^
Total
increase in
population
Increase in—
Decade
Foreign-
born popu-
lation
Colored
population
White
population
from other
parts of
United
States
Births over
deaths
1830 to 1840.. .
4, 429
25, 484
79, 243
188, 717
205, 108
496; 665
588, 725
468, 708
525, 422
674, 733
V-)
90, 133
60, 302
244, 769
137, 584
194. 105
24, 165
36, 575
C-)
400
2,000
10, 000
30, 000
50, 000
100, 000
170, 000
212, 000
200. 000
233, 000
1840 to 1850
1850 to 1860
1860 to 1870 .
63, 000
95, 000
144, 106
265, 262
48, 650
236, 257
259, 158
1870 to 1880
1880 to 1890 .
7,791
15, 879
13, 953
65,000
146, 000
1890 to 1900
1900 to 1910
1910 to 1920
1920tol930._ .
1 Homer Hoyt, One Hundred Years of Land Values in Chicago, University of Chicago Press, 1933
2 Before 1860 no accurate data are available for increase in foreign-born population. Increase in colored
population in this period was negligiole.
Table III. — Residence status of native population of Illinois, Indiana, and
Wisconsin, 1890-1930
Total population
Net deficit
for 3 States
(4)
Decennial change
Year
Born in 3
States
(2>
Eesiding in
3 States
(3)
Decade
(5)
Percent of increase of
population
(1)
Residing
in 3 States,
born in
other States
(6)
Born in 3
States,
residing in
other States
(7)
1890
6, 448, 437
8, 123, 760
9, 598, 101
11, 127, 187
12, 667, 549
6, 197, 884
7, 782, 215
8, 795, 485
10, 225, 340
12,034,418
2.50, 553
341,545
802, 616
901, 847
633, 131
1900
1890-1900
1900-1910
1910-20
1920-30
14.0
1.8
13.2
29.2
17.8
27.6
12.9
8.3
1910
1920
1330
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
891
Table IV. — Percentage (iistributioti and decennial change of native-'born popu-
lation, hy State of birth and foreign-born in the city of Chicago, 1890-1'J-iO
Total
popula-
tion
Foreign-
born
popula-
tion
Total
native
popula-
tion
State of birth of native
population
Year
Illinois
Indiana
and Wis-
Michi-
gan,
Missouri,
Iowa, and
New
York,
Penn-
All other
States
consin
Ken-
tucky
and Ohio
1890
100. 00
100. 00
100. 00
40.98
34.57
35.85
59.02
65.43
64.15
39.68
45.32
46. 56
3.12
3.83
3.52
3.01
4.24
3.96
7.67
7.15
5.45
5.54
1900
4.89
1910
4.66
1920
100.00
29.93
70.07
51. 41
3. 55
4.14
4.68
6.29
1930
100. 00
25.45
74.55
51.49
3.97
4.97
4.18
9.94
Increase or decrease:
1S90 to 1900
54.4
30.3
71.2
76.4
89.3
117.8
44.1
36.1
1900 to 1910
28.7
33.4
26.1
32.2
18.2
20.0
-1.9
22.6
1910 to 1920
23.6
3.2
35.0
36.5
24.8
29.4
6.0
66.9
1920 to 1930
25.0
6.3
33.0
25.2
39.7
50.0
11.7
97.5
1890 to 1930
207.0
90.7
287.7
298.3
290.0
407.4
67.3
450.4
jNIr. Parsons. Do you care to make any comment in connection
with it?
Mr. Shils. No additional comment, unless you have some specific
questions.
Mr. Parsons. You are connected with the department of sociology ?
Mr. Shils. Yes.
Mr. Par.sons. Under Dr. Wirth?
Mr. Shils. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. You have heard the testimony here this morning,
have you not, Mr. Shils?
Mr. Shils. Yes.
]\Ir. Parsons. Do you have any suogestions to make that might
aid the committee in this problem of migration?
recommendations
Mr. Shils. "Well, no. I can only reiterate the suggestions and
recommendations which have already been made, namely, the neces-
sity for a greater coordination of employment information and the
more adequate diffusion of the employment information to the unem-
ployed in the various parts of the country.
At the present time it is true that there is, through various State
employment agencies, information available at. such agencies, but
most persons who are unemployed do not know about the existence
of the agency, in my experience.
Mr. Parsons. How would you disseminate this information;
through tlie public ])ress?
Mr. Shils. Through tlie public press, or through the radio. I
think the radio would be more valuable, because more persons in the
lower income groups listen to the radio than read the newspapers,
I think.
Mr. Parsons. I think that is true.
Mr. Shils. Yes.
g92 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Parsons We are glad to have had you appear here. Are
there any questions ?
Mr. Sparkmax. I woukl like to ask one question. I notice from.
the statement of Dr. Wirth, four specific recommendations are made :
First, adequate national information service on employment oppor-
tunities; second, a further expansion of our employment services in
order to bring the workers and the job oj^portunities together ; third,
the extension of our social security measures; and fourth, effective
legislation to prevent measures inhibiting the free movement of
Americans. Those do state pretty well the conclusions of his paper
as I understand it ?
Mr. Shils. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. That is all.
Mr. Curtis. May I ask this question : Do you have here in Chicago
the problem of private employment agencies or travel bureaus induc-
ing people to come to this area for work, when there is no work?
Mr. Shils. I do not think that is the case in recent years.
Mr. Curtis. You do not think that is the case in recent years?
Mr. Shils. No. That was the case in the early twenties, particu-
larly with the Negroes in the Southern States, but I do not think it
has been the case in Chicago in recent years.
Mr. Curtis. That is all.
Mr. Parsons. The statement prepared by Dr. Wirth headed "A
Statement Concerning Historical Aspects of Urban Migration in the
Midwest" has been received as part of the record. We wish to express
our appreciation to Dr. Wirth for his contribution. That is all, Mr.
Shils.
(Whereupon Mr. Shils was excused.)
The Chairman. The committee will stand adjourned until 2 o'clock
this afternoon.
(Whereupon, at 12 : 40 p. m., a recess was taken until 2 p. m. of the
same day.)
afternoon session
(The hearing was reconvened at 2 p. m.)
TESTIMONY OF HARRY C. NAIL, JR., RESEARCH CONSULTANT,
ATTORNEYS GENERAL SECTION, COUNCIL OF STATE GOVERN-
MENTS
The Chairman. The committee will please come to order. The next
witness will be Mr. Nail. Mr. Nail will be interrogated by Congress-
man Parsons.
Mr. Parsons. State your name and address for the benefit of the
record.
Mr. Nail. Harry C. Nail, Jr., research consultant, attorneys general
section, Council of State Governments.
Mr. Parsons. You are with the Council of State Governments?
Mr. Nail. Yes; I am with the Council of State Governments.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 893
Mr. Parsons. You have no direct connection Avith tlie attorney gen-
eral's office of Illinois ?
Mr. Nail. No, sir ; except that he is a member of the National Asso-
ciation of Attorneys General, and we serve as the secretariat of that
Association.
(Statement presented is as follows:)
Statement by Hakry C. Nail, Jr., Research Consultant, Attorneys General
Section, Council of State Govetjnments
interstate agreements for the transfer of dependent migrants
The administration of public relief to dependent persons is controlled in most
States by statutory provisions wliich deteimine eligibility on the basis of time
spent within the community. These provisions, technically known as settle-
ment laws, have as their foundation the seventeenth century poor laws of
England which were passed to deal with the dependency attendant upon the
break-up of the feudal system and the consequent growth of towns and
cities.^
Today our population mobility again brings the settlement law into the
foreground and raises the question as to whether the theory of strict local
responsibility for the relief of dependents is adequate.
Settlement laws have a twofold purpose: First, that of setting up qualifi-
cations or conditions of eligibility for public assistance; and, second, the fixing
of responsibility for such public assistance upon the locality wherein there has
been a compliance with the qualifications. The qualifications in the various
States take the form of residence requirements of from G months to 5 years,
and in addition generally provide that such residence be acquired without the
receipt of public or private assistance." The settlement statutes also generally
provide that the status entitling one to public aid may be lost by absence from
the State or by the acquisition of a new settlement in another State.
Aside from the stated methods providing for the loss of the settlement status
there is also the possibility that the State legislature may take away the
right which it created. In other words, the settlement status is not a vested
right but rather a matter of grace dependent upon the pure whim of the
legislators.
The tendency today is for the legislatures to revise upward the residence
time requirement increasing the difliculty of acquiring a legal settlement. At
the same time, however, such increases have generally been interpreted as
not affecting those vvho have already acquired a settlement status, that is,
they are not retroactive.
As a result of this tendency a more lilieral interpretation of the laws has
taken place and attorneys general in many instances have attempted to reduce
the harsh effects through their power of construction.^
1 Hirsh, Harry M., Our Settlemeot Laws, New York State Department of Social
Welfare, p. 6.
- Settlement — Acquisition — Farm Security Administration Aids — Effect of (Loomis,
Wis., December 17, 1938). Xo set rule may be applied as to effect of various activities
of Farm Security Administration on question of legal settlement which bv law is denied
to persons while beins "supported as a pauper or employed on any State or Federal work
relief program." Generally Farm Security Administration and corporation standard loans
are not relief, but contemplate rehabilitation. Grants not supported by work agreements
indicate relief or pauper status, but employment under work agreement does constitute
employment on a ''Federal work relief program" so as to bar acquisition of settlement.
^Eligibility for Assistance — Interpretations — (Reno, Pa., Rutherford, Asst., March 6,
1940. In 19o9 Pennsylvania amended its I'ublic Assistance Act. The residence require-
ment was increased from 1 to 2 years and a settlement requirement was added. The
former 1-year residence condition for eligibility did not create any vested rights to relief
which were not subject to change by the legislature, since relief responsibility is purely
statutory. Another provision of the 19.39 law provides that funds shall be kept by the
director for furnishing assistance in emergency cases. A liberal interpretation if placed
upon this provision permitting the director to make a grant in an emergency situation
until other aid can be solicited, even in cases where the facts disclosed indicated ineligi-
bility under the act.
g94 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
The migrant seeking economic security experiences the real brunt of the
settlement laws ; stranded in a foreign connnunity his appeal for aid can only
be directed to private charity groups. Where industrial or agricultural cir-
cumstances force largo migrant movements, however, the settlement law under
existing arrangements is a necessary protection to those geographical sectors
in which the migrants sojourn. In such sectors the usual resources of the
community cannot be expected to meet the demands occasioned by such a
great increase in population.
Attempts have been made to effect a partial remedy to cope with the problems
of the dependent migrant. In cases where migrants have maintained a settle-
ment status in the States from which they have migrated, interstate agreements
providing for their return have been consummated. Such agreements now exist
between Vermont and Maine. Vermont and New York, and Vermont and New
Hampshire. In 193o the National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform
State Laws drafted and approved a Uniform Transfer of Dependents Act pro-
viding for the enactment of enabling clauses permitting the formation of recipro-
cal agreements between States.
In 193S the National Association of Attorneys General became interested in this
problem and there was established an advisory committee on public assistance.
This committee, with the aid of the American Public Welfare Association, is re-
sponsible for the terminology changes in the most recent interstate agreements
and for the sponsorship of this device as a means of aiding the migrant.
Lack of uniformity In settlement laws, however, particularly with respect to
the loss of settlement, destroys the effectiveness of interstate agreements. For
example, a person migrating from New York to Vermont would lose his settlement
in New York after 1 year's absence and would not gain settlement in Vermont
until 3 years' presence. Hence, after the duration of 1 year, Vermont could not
request that this person l)e transported back to the State of New York for that
State is no longer responsible under the law. The result is that neither State
is legally bound to provide relief and the interstate agreement entered into in
no way corrects this situation. Such agreements could be made more workable
if they were of a higher order than the statiitnry enactments that pertain to loss
of settlement. Legislative authority might be delegated to the officers entering
into the agreement to revise the loss of settlement provisions with respect to
dependents sought to be transferred. For example, if the agreement provided
that no settlement is lost until a new one is gained, authority to transfer would
always exist, for theoretical settlement is gained at birth through inheritance.
Whether such legislative powers could be delegated to the persons designated to
form agreements is doubtful, but ratification of the agreement by the legislature
would cure this defect.
Aside from the nonuniformity of settlement laws among the several States,
other factors indicate that the interstate agreement for the transfer of dependent
migrants is not a satisfactory method of treatment. In the case of California, a
State having great attraction for the migrant, the following unofficial statement
by the attorney general points out the defects :
"While this compact (agreement) undoubtedly provides a satisfactory adjust-
ment of this problem for Maine and Vermont and might serve as a model for
other States similarly situated, it does not offer a solution for California of this
difficult problem.
"In the first place, under the present laws there is no aiithority permitting the
officials of California to enter into such a compact and specific legislation would
be necessary to authorize it. Such legislation could not be considered until the
regular session of our legislature in 1941.
"Secondly, the laws of California with reference to the return of indigent
migrants are not uniform as to length of residence in this State. For instance,
Tuider sections 2500 to 2615 of the Welfare and Institutions Code of Cali-
fornia (California Indigent Act, Stats. 1987, ch. 464), which sections make it
the duty of the counties to relieve and support all incompetent, poor, in-
digent ijersons and those incapacitated by old age, di.sease, or accident, the
residence qualification is fixed at 3 years and if the residence qualification is
not met the county is authorized to spend the money necessary to transport
the nonresident to his State of legal residence. On the other hand, it is
provided under our children's aid law that the residence requirement shall be
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 895
1 year immediately preceding the date of application. In addition, tliere is a
statutory provision permitting boards of supervisors to care for the indigent
sicli (sec. 217, Welfare and Institutions Code) which does not provide any
specific length' of tinip as a residence rapiirement Init authorizes the transpor-
tation of such indigents to other States, 'when such indigents will thereby
cease to become public charges, or when friends or relatives of such indigents
agree to assume the cost and expense of the care and maintenance of such
indigents, or when such indigents are legally public charges in the places to
which they are so transported.'
"Finally, the provisions of section 4 of the compact, which makes the trans-
fer dependent upon the agreement of both States that the welfare of the in-
digent and his familv will be promoted by such transfer, might cause so much
negotiation and perhaps dispute as to make the compact exceedingly difficult
to administer. In instances where the migrants have fled from disaster m the
State of residence, the practical effect would, in my opinion, be to require that
California keep them.
"This compact would seem to be suitable for use between States which have
relatively small numbers of such cases to deal with, but I am not so sure that
it would" benefit States which liave a great influx of migrants."
It has been recommended that settlement laws be abolished entirely on the
theory that for most States the relief burden would not thereby increase— the
number of dependents coming into the State would be offset by those going
out. This recommendation obviously could not apply to States like California
unless outside financial resources — such as grants in aid — were forthcoming.
The difficulties of repealing the settlement laws are manifest, particularly
when the Federal Government has apparently placed its stamp of approval
upon this type of legislation by providing in the Social Security Act that
States receiving Federal aid may not exclude from benefits anyone who has
resided in the State for the following specified periods :
Aid to the Wind. — Five years during the 9 years immediately preceding
application, the last year continuously.
Old-ar/e assistance. — Five years during the 9 years immediately preceding
application, the last year continuously.
Aid to dependent children.— One year immediately preceding application.
A child born within the State within 1 year immediately preceding applica-
tion is eligible if its mother has resided in the State for 1 year immediately
preceding its birth.
As for the demand for uniformity of settlement laws throughout the States,
if the theory of the law is bad, then such a demand amounts to a request
that a bad law be uniformly bad.
In the case of migrants, a change in the law with respect to the loss of
settlement would create a desired status if the plan of local responsibility is
to be continued. This change, modeled after the legal interpretation of a
domiciliary status, would merely provide that a legal settlement is not lost
until a new one is gained. The advantages of this policy, especially in the case
of the migrant, are apparent.
Since this memorandum is confined to the legal aspects of settlement laws and
interstate agreements for the transfer of migratory dependents, the social
phases of the problem have not been discussed.
TESTIMONY OF HARRY C. NAIL, JR.— Resumed
Mr. Parsons. You have presented here a very fine statement, and
because of the lack of time, %Ye cannot have you read it all, I will ask
you some questions about it.
Mr. Nail. All rio-ht.
Mr. Parsons. Before we «;et to that, some members of the committee
have been discu-ssinc; what w^as said about changino; the settlement law
in Illinois last year. We did not want to cause any embarrassment to
the State or the State leo;islature by seeminc: to be critical of that
change. I wonder if you know why the time was changed from 1 year
to 3 years by the legislature?
Mr, Nail. I do not know specifically why they did. I can see a rea-
son for it ; that is, to limit the financial responsibility on the part of the
ggg INTERSTATE MIGRATION
State. That is the reason for all settlement laws, I think. Why it was
specifically, in this particular instance, raised from 1 year to 3 years, I
have no knowledge.
Mr. Parsons. In his testimony Mr. Lyons did not indicate that there
had been any appreciable migration into Illinois, or at least not into
Chicago, just for the purpose of getting on relief.
]\Ir. Nail. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. I asked him about that specifically.
Mr. Nail. I recall that.
Mr. Parsons. He mentioned that on more than one occasion.
Mr. Nail. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. The Illinois Emergency Relief Commission has all of
the records probably that are available upon that question. He also
stated that they did not recommend passage of the law.
Mr. Natl. I heard him say that.
Mr. Parsons. Are you familiar with the act changing the time,
familiar enough with it to know whether or not that Avas a section that
was placed into the act extending the Illinois Emergency Relief Com-
mission ?
Mr. Nail. No; I am not. I am acquainted with the attorney
general's opinion that interpreted that act ; that is, with respect to the
extension of time from 1 year, I believe, to 3 years.
Mr. Parsons. I see.
Mr. Nail. As far as the act itself is concerned, I am not familiar
with it.
Mr. Parsoxs. From your study of settlement laws, will you explain
to the committee your concept of the origin and purpose of settlement
laws and how they have been Inmded down from past centuries?
Mr. Nail. I think it was in the year 1300. or thereabouts, in England
there was a statute passed, called the statute of labor. This statute ])ro-
vided that it was a penal offense for anyone not to accept employ-
ment in the place where he was located.
In about 1600 we began to see our first settlement law, at the time of
Elizabeth. They were breaking up the feudal system at that time,
and cities were faced with a large influx of population. They had to
limit their financial responsibility. They passed a law very similar
to the law we have in Illinois and in most of the States today. In fact,
the effect of the law is the same, but the terminology has changed a
little bit. That law became part of the famous Elizabethan Code.
Then it was brought over when we colonized the United States, and it
has been with us since that time.
We have a precedent, therefore, extending back about three or four
hundred years. That is the type of law we have today.
Mr. PiVRSONS. We learned over in New York City that the New Eng-
land settlement laws were almost identical today with wdiat they were
when the Constitution was adopted.
Mr. Nail. That is true.
Mr. Parsons. There has been very little, if any, change.
Mr. Nail. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. Of course, they were handed down, or borrowed, from
the old English law.
Mr. Nail. Yes.
INTEBSTATE MIGRATION 897
ABOLITION OF SETTLEMENT LAWS
Mr. Parsons. What is your idea about the time? "VVliat is your
opinion as to what chanijes should be made? Should they be abol-
ished altogether, or should they be made uniform ; and if so, how can
we accomplish that ? Conoress cannot step into the State picture.
Mr. Nail. That is true. I do not think, from the standpoint of
theory, the element of time should be the determining factor in ascer-
tainino; whether a person should be given relief. I think it is de-
pendent upon whether he needs relief, rather than the question of
whether he has been in the community 6 months or 5 years. So believ-
ing, I think settlement laws should be abolished, but I do not think you
are going to have any success in attempting to abolish them.
As I said before, until you remove the cause for settlement laws,
which is the limitation of financial responsibility, it appears that you
are not going to have very much success in removing the settlement
laws themselves.
Mr. Parsons. These terms "settlement laws," "residence laws," and
so forth, may be confusing to the public. Will you explain the differ-
once, using Illinois, of course, as an illustration, between our residence
law and our settlement law?
Mr. Nail. They are entirely different. You have the term "resi-
dence" often appearing in the statutes with respect to jurisdiction for
divorces and with respect to voting statutes. Where we refer to the
settlement law, we use the word "residence" in an entirely different way.
In the first place, it is a particular type of residence. It must be one
self-supporting in nature, and if you receive public assistance or pri-
vate assistance, you are not fulfilling the requirements as to that type
of residence. I should say, in the first place, we should consider the
settlement law as having a twofold purpose : First that of setting up
qualifications or conditions of eligibility for public assistance; and
second the fixing of responsibility for such public assistance upon the
locality wherein there has been a compliance with the qualifications.
But we should not confuse the term "residence," or think that we are
referring to it with respect to settlement laws in the same way as when
we are referring to voting laws or jurisdiction laws.
The Chairman. Is the settlement law always predicated upon relief
or assistance?
Mr. Nail. Yes; in my opinion.
Mr. Parsons. It is your thought that the legislature raised the limi-
tation to 3 years in order to avoid reliefers who might be migrating
to the State ?
Mr. Nail. Yes ; and I think, too. there is a tendency throughout the
States to raise residence requirements. I know that in Colorado, In-
diana, Kansas, Minnesota. Pennsylvania
The Chairman. And California.
Mr. Nail. And California, that has been done. There is a trend in
that direction.
Mr. Parsons. Give us your suggestions as to how Congress might
attack this problem in the way of uniformity of settlement laws. You
say you think they might as well be repealed. My fear about that is
^98 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
that should you do so, it might be an inducement to at least a limited
number of people to see America first at the expense of the govern-
mental aoencies furnishing relief.
If he could apply at Chicago today and get relief, and then run over
into Iowa tomorrow and could api)ly and get relief there, and stay for
10 days and then go on out through Kansas and out through the
Rockies and out to the coast, and then down the coast, every State in
which he stopped for a few days would furnish relief, so he would
have a nice junket, so-called, at the expense of the relief agencies.
Mr. Nail. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. What do you have to say about that ?
RECOMMENDATIONS
Mr. Nail. I think it might be true in isolated instances, but I think
that just the idea of receiving relief in a place where you would like
to go for climatic reasons, or because you would like to see the country,
is not a sufficient force to cause a family to uproot their connections in
the State where they have settlement, or if they do not have settlement
there, and move on to another State. I think you might have individ-
ual instances, as I say, but not a widei^read movement at all.
Mr. Parsons. What are your suggestions as to how Congress can
attack this problem? Do you think it can be done by giving grants-
in-aid to the States, and influencing the States to adopt, say, uniform-
ity of settlement laws ?
1. EXTENSION OF FEDERAL AID
Mr. Nail. Well, I think if the Federal Government were to rees-
tablish the Federal transient program that was in existence in 1933 —
not exactly that particular program, but something of that nature —
they would then be limiting the financial responsibility to be placed on
the States, because the Federal Government would be taking care of
those persons who did not have settlement status by direct grant.
If that were done, and the States could be made to believe their
financial responsibilitj^ would not increase, I think they would be more
likely to revise downward the present residence requirements. They
might never abolish them, but there would be no particular reason
for continuing the settlement laws.
Mr. Parsons. Would you have the Federal Government contribute
the entire cost of the out-of-State destitute migrant ?
Mr. Nail. Yes. I would have it contribute the entire cost for those
persons who did not have a resident status. I think there is a tend-
ency on the part of most of the States to feel that they do not par-
ticularly like to help the outsiders that come in. They are willing to
take care of those persons who have been residents of the State for
some period of time.
2. MIGRANT REGISTRATION
Mr. Parsons. Would it be helpful if we were able through the vari-
ous local and Federal Government agencies to catalog all of the
migrants and were able to have a definite report on them ?
Mr. Nail. I think it would be decidedly helpful.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 899
Mr. Parsons, Then when tliey left, to ^o from one place to an-
other, the agency could give tliem some kind of identification showing
what type and character of person they were, so that they could pre-
sent that identification in the next State or at the next stop to the local
authorities, who would then understand the background of these
migrants.
Mr. Nail. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. Would that be helpful, do you think?
Mr. Nail. I think so. I think if you had a record of these migrants,
it would be very helpful.
Mr. Parsons. Yes.
3. UNIFORM SBTTLEMKNT LAWS
Mr. Nail. You asked a moment ago about making these laws
uniform.
Mr. Parsons. Yes.
Mr. Nail. There is an organization called the National Conference
of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws. They have been in exist-
ence about 50 years. They have been attempting to make laws uni-
form with respect to commercial transactions in the main.
During that time, they have only been able to make one law uniform,
and that is the Negotiable Instruments Act. If we are attempting now
to make settlement laws uniform, we have a hard road ahead of us,
unless it could be done through some form of grant-in-aid with con-
ditions attached.
Mr. Parsons. If it was necessary for them to qualify for aid. Con-
gress might be able to touch the problem.
Mr. Nail. I think Congress has done that in connection with the
Veterans Guardianship Act. They have been very successful in
having that adopted. There still are a few States, however, that
have not adopted it.
jNIr. Parsons. What has been your observation in your study of
this problem where the States have more recently been raising the
limitation of the time? Do you not think that merely aggravates the
problem as a whole?
]VIr. Nail. Particularly for the migrant, it does. It also aggravates
it for those in the community, because disputes arise as to whether
they have settlement, and the cost of litigation is very high.
Mr. Parsons. Have you any recommendations to make to the com-
mittee that you think might be beneficial in improving present prac-
tices in the treatment of this problem?
Mr. Nail. The only recommendation I would have to make is, as I
have said, with respect to grants-in-aid; some sort of program such
as the Federal transient program, or an extension of the categories of
social security to take in this particular class of persons.
Mr. Parsons. You would require the Federal Government to pay
the entire cost of the destitute migrant?
Mr. Nail. I think so ; yes.
Mr. Parsons. That is all.
The Chairman. Mr. Nail, you are a lawyer, are you not?
Mr. Nail. Yes.
900
INTERSTATE MIGRATIOIS
The Chairman. The Federal Government, of course, could not tell
the States what residence laws or settlement laws they should enact.
Is that not true ?
Mr. Nail. No ; they cannot.
The Chairman. But if your suggestion were followed, of course,
the United States Congress']' urisdiction would follow the dollar, would
it not, if they granted aid to the States?
Mr. Nail. I think that has been the case with respect to the social-
security law and with respect to the merit system.
The Chairman. I think you will agree with me that this is a very
complex problem. There is no single solution. You very delicately
approached just one.
Mr. Nail. Yes.
The Chairman. Now, we have former President Hoover who thinks
the solution is resettlement of millions of acres of federally owned
property in the United States. Mrs. Roosevelt agrees with him. That
is one subject they agree on. Yet you can readily see what a problem
that is. You can see what it would involve, if we should recommend
that. We have to first find the land and do many other things before
that could be accomplished.
Mr. Nail. That is true.
The Chairman. Do you not think, Mr. Nail, in agreement with the
other witnesses, that this is really a national problem i
Mr. Nail. Yes.
The Chairman. Take Chicago: If 850,000 people moved into the
State of Illinois, the tax structure of the State could not stand up
under it, could it ?
Mr. Nail. I do not believe it could.
The Chairman. It just simply could not be done. Who knows
when they are going to start to come? Nobody knows. You are a
citizen of what State ?
Mr. Nail. Ohio.
The Chairman. Ohio?
Mr. Nail. Yes.
The Chairman. But under the Constitution you are a citizen of
the other 47 States, are you not ?
Mr. Nail. Yes.
The Chairman. We have spent billions through the Congress
and through the courts to fix the status of iron, steel, coal, and
other commodities, watching them jealously pass through the States,
but we have never spent a dime yet to protect human interstate com-
merce, have we?
Mr. Nail. When you refer to "interstate commerce," do you refer
to people as being in interstate commerce?
The Chairman. I am just using that term figuratively, to desig-
nate the destitute migrant citizens moving from State to State.
Mr. Nail. AVhere would be the authority of the Federal Govern-
ment, under the general welfare clause, or under the commerce
clause, or what?
The Chairman. The point is, the only thing you suggest is grants-
in-aid by the Federal Government.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 901
Mr. Nail. Under the general welfare clause?
The Chairman. Yes. . . , ^. , • • ^i
Mr. Nail. That is the only thm<r I can thmk ot to brnig ni the
authority of the Federal Government.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. But they are interstate commerce themselves.
Mr. Nail. I think there has to be something commercial attached
to it. I do not know that a person coming across a State line woidd
he considered as interstate commerce.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Nail. I do not think so.
The Chairman. Well, let us use that term.
Mr. Nail. Yes. .
The Chairman. You have not raised any barriers m the 48 btates
against any other State shipping in oats or wheat or anything else.
No such barriers have been raised. Why? Because you just snnply
cannot do it and get away with it. But we are raising barriers
against the free flow of the human interstate commerce, are we not,
in the residence laws?
Mr. Nail. I do not want to contradict you, Mr. Chairman, but
there are hundreds of State trade barriers to commodities.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Nail. The trend now has been stopped, but it has been in
that direction.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Nail. From 1932 to 1937 actually there were hundreds of laws
passed of that nature, particularly with respect to liquor.
The Chairman. Yes; but the tendency is always to break down
those barriers, is that not true?
Mr. Nail. Yes.
The Chairman. Please do not infer from our questions that we
are indicating how we feel about it.
Mr. Nail. No.
The Chairman. We are trying to find our own way, you see.
Mr. Nail. Yes.
The Chairman. With respect to these settlement laws, they range
as high as 5 years and as low as 6 months.
Mr. Nail. Yes.
The Chairman. Congressman Parsons has brought out the fact
that that is what we are deepl}^ concerned about, and that is why
we want your idea about it.
Mr. Nail. The Social Security Board has something very similar
to a settlement law. They make it necessary for those applying
for social security out in the States to have lived there 5 years within
the last 9 years continuously. I think it would be a very good thing
if the Government could abolish that type of settlement law, if it
can be referred to as such, as it has in the social security program.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Mr. Nail. If you are going to ask the States to remove settlement
laws, I think it should be done by the Federal Government also.
902 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
The Chairman. Are there any other questions? (No response.)
The statement which you have prepared entitled "A Statement on
Settlement Laws, Interstate Aoreements for the Transfer of De-
pendent Migrants" will be received and made a part of the record,
and given the appropriate exhibit number.
The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Nail.
Mr. Nail,. Thank you.
(Whereupon Mr. Nail was excused.)
TESTIMONY OF JAMES MILLER
The Chairman. The next witness will be James Miller. Congress-
man Curtis will examine you, Mr. Miller.
Mr. Curtis. Will you give vour full name to the reporter, please,
Mr. Miller?
Mr. Miller. James Miller.
Mr. Curtis. Where were j^ou born?
Mr. Miller. Leith, Scotland.
Mr. Cltrtis. At what age did you come to this country?
Mr. Miller, Nineteen.
Mr. Curtis. When were you born, what year?
Mr. Miller. 1894.
Mr. Curtis. You are a citizen of this country?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. When were you naturalized?
Mr. Miller. 1923.
Mr. Curtis. How much of a family do you have?
Mr. Miller. Two boys, one 21 and one 19.
Mr. Curtis. Is Mrs, 'Miller living?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. The children as well as Mrs. Miller are all citizens,
too?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Are you working now?
Mr. Miller. No, sir.
Mr. Curtis. What was your last job?
Mr. Miller. At Pittsburgh.
Mr. Curtis. Pittsburgh, Pa.?
Mr. Miller. Yes; in the steel mills.
]Mr. Curtis. What did you do before that?
Mr. Miller. You mean from the start, from Chicago here?
Mr. Curtis. No. What was vour last job before your job at
Pittsburgh?
]\Ir. Miller. That was at Gary, Ind.
]Mr. Curtis. How long were you at Pittsburgh ?
Mr. INIiLLER. About 3 months altogether.
Mr. Curtis. During what year?
Mr. jNIiller. That was 1939.
Mr. Curtis. When did you leave Pittsburgh, what month?
Mr. Miller. January 1940, to come here; to come back.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 903
Mr. Curtis. That was only about a 3-month period of employment
there?
Mr. Miller. That is rioht.
Mr. Curtis. During what time did vou work in Gary, Ind. ?
Mr. Miller. 1937. I went there iii June and that job lasted up
until January 1938. Then we lived on what we had saved up until
we became destitute.
Mr. Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Miller. I applied there for relief in Indiana. They gave me
some subsistence there to help us. In the meantime they got in touch
with Chicago here to find out what our case v.as here. In the mean-
time I got another position there.
Mr. Curtis. In Gary?
Mr. Miller. Yes. That lasted around 6 months.
Mr. Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Miller. Then I got laid off of that job. There was nothing
more doing in the mills there, and no chance of employment in that
small town there, so my wife and I talked it over, and the two boys
went into the C. C. C. camp.
Mr. Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Miller. At that time we put our furniture in storage in Gary,
to go east in search of employment. I had heard at the shipyards
at Camden where my sister is located, that there was work there.
That is why we went there, to get employm.ent. We went down there
and made application. They kept saying it would be a month or so,
or maybe a month and a half before they could use me.
Mr. Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Miller. I did not receive employment, so I went from there to
Boston. I had heard about the shipyards there. My wife, inci-
dentally, had a sister there. We stayed there for about a month. I
think it was. Then we started back again, stopping at my sister's
again in Camden. There was nothing there at the shipyards. We
came back to Pittsburgh, and got into the mills at Pittsburgh.
Mr. Curtis. At what are you trained? At what work are you
trained ?
Mr. Miller. Powerhouse operator; substation operator and elec-
trician.
Mr. Curtis. That was your last permanent job in Chicago, along
that line^
Mr. Miller. Powerhouse operator; yes.
Mr. Curtis. How many years were you engaged in that work?
^Ir. Miller. Twelve years, with the Edison Co.
Mr. Curtis. That work terminated in what year?
Mr. Miller. 1932.
Mr. Curtis. They have not called you back ?
Mr. Miller. No.
Mr. Curtis. Wlien you applied for aid in Gary, Ind., did Illinois
consider you a resident of Illinois at that time, or do you know ?
Mr. Miller. I don't know.
Mr. Curtis. I see.
260370 — 40 — pt. 3-
QQ^ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Miller. I don't know. They got in touch with Illinois through
the Indiana relief, so I don't know what arrangements they made.
They didn't seem to refuse anything in Indiana at that time.
Mr. Curtis. Have you had any odd jobs besides those you mentioned
at Gary and Pittsburgh ?
Mr. Miller. No. I was sick for about 2 months, with erysipelas,
since I came back.
Mr. Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Miller. I am just getting over it now.
Mr. Curtis. Did you not do some instructing in the Y. M. C. A.?
Mr. Miller. That was after I left the Edison Co.
Mr. Curtis. What was the nature of that work?
Mr. Miller. Swimming instructor, and boys' work.
Mr. Curtis. How long did that last?
Mr. Miller. That was around 2 years.
Mr. Curtis. Did it provide a sufficient income to take care of your-
self?
Mr. Miller. Fourteen dollars a week. That at least let me keep my
family going.
Mr. Curtis. AVliat did you do following that work ?
Mr. Miller. Then I got into W. P. A., in the labor end. I went
from laboring to safety inspection in W. P. A.
Mr. Curtis. Altogether how long were you on W. P. A. ?
Mr. Miller. I can't recall. Around 4 or 5 years, I thmk.
Mr. Curtis. When did you leave W. P. A. ?
Mr. Miller. In 1937, to" go to Gary.
Mr. Curtis. You had a chance to go to Gary ?
Mr. Miller. Yes. I heard they were picking up. I ran down to
Gary and got employment there, and started to work in Gary. We
moved our furniture down to Gary.
Mr. Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Miller. I was going back and forth on the I. C, but it was too
far to travel. It took me 21/2 hours each way to go back and forth.
Mr. Curtis. What did they pay jou in Gary ?
Mr. Miller. $5.50 to start in. I got 6 days a week, though.
Mr. Curtis. Have you drawn any unemployment compensation ?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. How long did that run?
Mr. Miller. What do you mean?
Mr. Curtis. Over how many weeks did you draw it, or are you still
drawing it?
Mr. Miller. No. That is all over. I drew from Gary, or from In-
diana. I had, I think it was, only $29 from Pittsburgh.
Mr. Curtis. Have you had any work of any kind since you left
Pittsburgh?
Mr. Miller. No, sir.
Mr. Curtis. Are your boys still in a C. C. C. camp ?
Mr. Miller. The oldest one is.
Mr. Curtis. His age is 19, you say?
Mr. Miller. Twenty-one.
Mr. Curtis. Where is your other boy?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 905
Mr, Miller. He is with us at liome.
Mr. Curtis. Did the boys get through higli school ?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Now, Mr. Miller, you in search of work have gone
through quite a number of States, have you not ?
Mr. Miller. Yes, sir.
Mr. Curtis. In your opinion, what causes individuals to go from
one State to another, those who have found it necessary to be upon
relief? Do you think it is becau,se of their seeking a job, or did you
run into anyone who was hunting better and more abundant relief?
Mr. Miller. No. It was in quest of Mork that I went.
Mr. Curtis. I understand that you did, but in your contacts, in
making all these tries for a job
Mr. ISIiLLER. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Is it your opinion that is the general cause?
Mr. Miller. Well, the men I have spoken to on the way have said
that they went for work.
Mr. Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Miller. They were all looking for woik. They wanted work.
Mr. Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Miller. At the steel mills and shipyards, it was all the same.
They were looking for work.
Mr. Curtis. Did you ever have any difficulty in crossing any State
line?
Mr. Miller. No.
Mr. Curtis. Did anyone inquire of you where you were going or
whether you liad money to support yourself?
Mr. MiijjER. No.
Mr. Curtis. They never did?
Mr. Miller. No."
Mr. Curtis. In visiting these various cities in search of work, did
you contact employment agencies?
Mr. Miller. Not employment agencies: no. The mills themselves.
Mr. Curtis. The mills themselves?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. No public or private employment agency urged you to
go to any particular place?
Mr. Miller. No.
Mr. Curtis. What relief, other than work relief, have you received
here in Chicago, either public or private?
Mr. Miller. Before I left Chicago, that was when I went on
W. P. A., through that relief. Since I came back, in 1940 here, I went
to the public relief, and they said I wasn't a resident here any more,
because my furniture is in storage in Gary. They said they couldn't
do anything there, so I went to the United Charities. They looked
into the case, into my record, and they have given me aid.
Mr. Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Miller. On top of that, my boy had sent in $22 a month from
the C. C. C. That supplemented the rest, and kept us going.
Mr. Curtis. Yes.
QQg INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr Miller. We are in a one-room place, right now— my ^^•ife, my
bov and I The last 2 ^Yeeks my wife had obtamed employment
throngh the charities, so we are on our own at the present tnne
Mr Curtis. In other words, you have been confronted with this
propositi, that had you stayed in Chicago and not tried to find
private employment ,
ATr Mtt.ler I could still have had reliet.
Mr C™s" To take care of vourself and the family, you would
have quaWied' for relief, but by ctoing your best to find work you have
been penalized?
Mr. Miller. Yes.
fi: S™R Thalls ngi^ We can't understand it. Both of our
bovs was bom and raised here and went through the public schools.
TheyXn't know what to make of it. They don't know where their
home is, here or somewhere else. n.-r^r<i
Mr Curtis Altogether vou only spent 3 months m Gary?
Mr. Miller. That was in Pittsburgh.
Mr Curtis How long did you stay m Cjary « a ^ i.
Mr*. M^Sr. From June 1937 up until, I think it was, September-
no ; June 1938 it was when we left Gary.
Mr. Cltrtis. It was about a year, then (
Mr. C™: But when you went down there you still considered
Chicago your home ?
Mr. Miller. Oh, yes. „ ., , ^ ^ ,,^<i
Mr. Curtis. You moved the family down to save cartaie (
Mr. Miller. Yes.
ATi* r^TTRTm T scG*- /*
Mr Miller. We tried to locate a flat or apartment here on the far
South Side so we could still be residents here, but we couldn t find
one to suit, so it would take a shorter time to go back and forth on
the Illinois Central. Places was hard to get m Gary, but we finally
got a flat there. We figured it would be better to live there, where we
were making our money, the same as m Chicago.
Mr Curt?s We are very glad that vou came here. 1 our experience
is illustrative of some of the problems facing the Federal Government
in trying to do what is best and right in similar cases. I have no
further questions, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Miller.
(Whereupon Mr. Miller was excused.)
The Chairman. Karen and Kathryn Lee.
TESTIMONY OF KAREN AND KATHRYN LEE
The Chairman. Congressman Sparkman will interrogate you.
Mr. Sparkman. What is your name ?
Miss Karen Lee. ]V[iss Karen Lee.
Mr. Sparkman. K-a-r-e-n?
Miss Karen Lee. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. L-e-e?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 907
Miss Karen Lee. Yes.
Mr, Sparkman. What is your name?
Miss Kathryn Lee. Kathryn Lee.
Mr. Sparkman. You are sisters ?
Miss Karen Lee. Yes.
Miss Kathryn Lee. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Where do you live ?
Miss Karen Lee. At the Salvation Army Emergency Home.
Mr. Sparkman. Here in Chicago ?
Miss Karen Lee. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. How long have you been in Chicago?
Miss Karen Lee. One week yesterday.
Mr, Sparkman, Just a week ?
Miss Karen Lee. Yes,
Mr. Sparkman, Where did you come from ?
Miss Karen Lee. St. Louis.
Mr, Sparkman. Is St. Louis your original home ?
Miss Karen Lee. No.
Miss Kathryn Lee. Kansas City,
Miss I^REN Lee, Kansas City.
Mr, Sparkman. Speaker louder, please.
Miss Karen Lee. All right.
Mr. Sparkman, How old are you, Karen ?
Miss Karen Lee, Twenty.
Mr. Sparkman. And you, Kathryn?
Miss Kathryn Lee. Eighteen.
Mr, Sparkman. When did you leave Kansas City ?
Miss Karen Lee. I was 14.
Miss Kathryn Lee. I was 12.
Mr. Sparkman. Where have you been since that time ?
Miss Karen Lee. St. Louis, Mo.
Mr. Sparkman. I could not hear you.
Miss Karen Lee, St. Louis, Mo.
Mr. Sparkman, Why did you leave home ?
Miss Karen Lee. Well, to tell the truth, I was kicked out.
Mr. Sparkman. You mean out of the family?
Miss Karen Lee. Yes,
Mr, Sparkman. Out of the family life?
Miss Karen Lee, Yes,
Mr, Sparkman. What was it — your mother ?
Miss Karen Lee. Stepfather.
Mr. Sparkman. By your stepfather?
Miss Karen Lee. Yes,
Mr, Sparkman, Is that true of both of you ?
Miss Kathryn Lee. Yes.
Miss Karen Lee. Yes,
Mr, Sparkman, Wliat schooling did you liaA'e, Karen?
Miss Karen Lee. I had 3iA years of high-school education.
Mr. Sparkman. What did you have, Kathryn?
Miss Kathryn Lee. I only went to eighth grade.
908
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr, Sparkman. Had you gone to eighth grade before you left Kansas
City?
Miss Kathkyn Lee. No.
Mr. Sparkman. You did some of that after you left there?
Miss K.\THRYN Lee. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. How about you ? Did you have any schooHng after
you left Kansas City, Karen?
Miss Karen Lee. Yes ; 21/2 years.
Mr. Sparkman. Where was that, in St. Louis?
Miss Karen Lee. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Did you spend all of your time in St. Louis?
Miss Karen Lee. We have traveled around a little bit. We have
been many places since we have been in St. Louis.
Mr. Sparkman. In other words, you more or less established your-
selves in St. Louis?
Miss K^REN Lee. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. And the other places you have just been for a short
time ?
Miss KapuEN Lee. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. To what extent have you traveled around ?
Miss Karen Lee. I have been in California for almost a month.
Then we were in Florida for awhile.
Mr. Sparkman. How long did you stay in California?
Miss Karen Lee. Well, almost 2 months.
Mr. Sparkman. What were you doing there?
Miss Kx\REN Lee. Well, just looking at the town.
Mr. Sparkman. You did not get any job?
Miss Karen Lee, Well, I had one, just for a short time.
Mr. Sparkman. What kind of work?
Miss Karen Lee. Housework.
Mr. Sparkman. What kind of work have you done in St. Louis ?
Miss Karen Lee. Well, housework, or usually as a waitress in some
tavern or cafe.
Mr. Sparkman, Kathryn, what kind of work have you done?
Miss Kathryn Lee, I have had waitress work.
Mr. Sparkman. In St. Louis?
Miss Kathryn Lee. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Are you working here ?
Miss Kathryn Lee. Not working right now ; no.
Mr. Sparkman. You are not working, either, Karen ?
Miss Karen Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Sparkman. You are staying at the Salvation Army emergency
home ?
Miss Karen Lee. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. How did you happen to get there ?
Miss Karen Lee. Well, we were at a park, in Douglas Park, which
is near Cicero. An officer found us there. He took us to the emer-
gency home, the Salvation Army emergency home. That was 1 week
ago Sunday, yesterday. We have been staying there ever since.
Mr. Sparkman. How did you happen to come to Chicago?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 909
Miss K.\REN Lee. Well, we heard there was work up here, plenty of
work up here. There wasn't any in St. Louis that we could find.
Mr. Sparkman. How did you come from St. Louis ?
Miss Karen Lee. Hitchhiked.
Mr. Sparkman. When you went to California, did you do the same
thing ?
Miss Karen Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Sparkman. Have all of your travels been by hitchhikmg?
Miss K^vREN Lee. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Ordinarily, how would you travel ? In other words,
what kind of rides would you get ?
Miss Karen Lee. Mostly they are truck drivers.
Mr. Sparkman. Have both of you stayed together all of the time?
Miss Karen Lee. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Do you plan to go back to St. Louis?
Miss Karen Lee. No.
Miss Kathryn Lee. No.
Mr. Sparkman. You do not want to go back ?
Miss Kathryn Lee. No.
Miss Karen Lee. There is nothing there.
Miss Kathryn Lee. There is nothing for us down there.
Mr. Sparkman. Do you want to go back to Kansas City?
Miss Kathryn Lee.* No. We want to stay in Chicago.
Mr. Sparkman, Is that true with you, Karen ?
Miss Karen Lee. Yes. I want to be anywhere where I think I will
be able to find a decent job.
Mr. Sparkman. What would you like to do ?
Miss Karen Lee. Right now, I think I would scrub steps.
Mr. Sparkman. You would do anything to make a living?
Miss Karen Lee. Yes.
Miss Kathryn Lee. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Honorably?
Miss Karen Lee. Yes.
Miss Kathryn Lee. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Do you have any desire to do any more school
work ?
Miss Karen Lee. No, sir. My ambition was to become a doctor,
but I think that is out now.
Mr. Sparkman. Do vou aspire toward any more school work,
Kathryn?
Miss Ivathryn Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Sparkman. Wliat kind of work do you want to do?
Miss Kathryn Lee. Waitress work.
Mr. Sparkman. If you could find a waitress job in a good place,
that is what you would be looking for?
Miss Kathryn Lee. No tavern; just a restaurant, or something
like that.
Mr. Sparkman. Have you ever asked for relief anywhere ?
Miss Karen Lee. We don't want relief.
Miss Kathryn Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Sparkman. You are not looking for relief?
giQ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Miss Kathryn Lee. No.
Miss Karen Lee, No.
Mr. Sparkman. You are looking for work?
Miss Kathryn Lee. Work.
Miss Karen Lee. Work.
Mr. Sparkman. Have yon ever had any difficulty in going from one
State to another? I mean, has any city or State ever tried to send
you back to your home?
Miss Karen Lee. No, sir.
Miss Kathryn Lee. No.
Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Chairman, I think that is all.
The Chairman. So you want to be a doctor, Karen ?
Miss Karen Lee. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you ever study medicine or anything of that
kind ?
Miss Karen Lee. No. So far I have not. I have always wanted
to, when I could.
The Chairman. Don't give it up entirely. You never can tell when
the breaks might be in your favor. Many people have been just as
poor as you are, and still have made a success in the profession which
they intended to adopt.
When you made the trip to California, where did you stay at
nights ?
Miss Karen Lee. Well, generally in a park.
The Chairman. That is, you slept out in the open ?
Miss Karen Lee. We never slept. We just stayed out.
The Chairman. You did not sleep?
Miss Karen Lee, No.
Mr. Curtis. Is it too cold to sleep in California ?
Miss Karen Lee. It isn't too cold, but we were afraid of tramps.
The Chairman. How many nights did you and your sister sleep
that way, if you did sleep?
Miss Karen Lee. Oh, I wouldn't want to start counting.
The Chairman. Generally you went to parks at night?
Miss Karen Lee. Yes.
The Chairman. Is that the idea?
Miss Karen Lee. .Yes.
The Chairman. How long were you in Cicero?
Miss Karen Lee. Oh, we were just there for one night.
The Chairman. Is that where the policeman found you, in the
park ?
Miss Karen Lee. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Who directed you to the Salvation Army?
Miss Karen Lee. First they took us to the — he called a sergeant.
The Chairman. Yes.
Miss Karen Lee. He came and took us to the police station. They
asked us a few questions.
The Chairman. Yes.
Miss Karen Lee. Then they took us to the Salvation Army emer-
gency home.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 911
The Chairman. We had two girls at the iS^ew York hearing simi-
hir to you and your sister. I think they had covered probably 26
States out of the 48. They adopted the practice of going and re-
porting to the police station, and they said they never had failed in
having the policemen take care of them, and seeing that they got a
room. I am not giving you that as a suggestion if you start out
again, or anything of that kind. I am just telling you what I heard.
Is there anything further ^^
Mr. Curtis. Have either of you received aid through a private
charity organization or through some branch of the Government
before you were picked up here in Chicago ?
Miss' Karen Lee. This is the first time in our life anybody ever
helped us out.
Mr. Curtis. It has been 6 years now that you have been out on
your own?
Miss Karen Lee. Yes, sir,
Mr. Curtis, The first place you went when you left Kansas City
was St. Louis?
Miss Karen Lee. Yes, sir.
Mr. Curtis. Did you have any relatives there?
Miss Karen Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Curtis. Did you know anybody?
Miss Karen Lee. No, sir. That is the first time I think I was
ever in St. Louis.
Mr. Curtis. You were 14?
Miss Karen Lee. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. She was 12?
Miss Karen Lee. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Did you get work right away?
Miss KLaren Lee. Housework.
Miss Kathryn Lee. Housework.
Mr. Curtis. You did?
Miss Karen Lee. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Did the school authorities ever check up on you to
see why you were not in school ?
Miss Karen Lee. We were, when we could be.
Mr. Curtis. You went to school after you got to St. Louis?
Miss Kathryn Lee. Yes.
Miss Karen Lee. We went to school. We got a job working morn-
ings and evenings and going to school in the day.
Mr. Curtis. What agencies helped you to find such a job?
Miss Karen Lee. We just looked at the ads in the paper.
Mr. Curtis. Is your mother still living?
Miss Karen Lee. No, sir. We heard they were killed — we read it
in a newspaper later on, about 2 years after we were in St. Louis,
that they were killed in an automobile accident.
Mr. Curtis. Your mother and stepfather?
Miss Karen Lee. My mother and stepfather.
Miss Kathryn Lee. He used to drink a lot, you know. He was a
reckless driver. That is how we are sure that happened.
Mr. Curtis. Were there any children besides you?
9J2 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Miss Kafen Lee. No, sir.
Mr. Curtis. You have no brothers or sisters?
Miss Karen Lee. No.
Miss Kathryn Lee. No.
Mr. Curtis. That is all.
Tlie Chairmax. Thank 5^011, Karen and Kathryn. Thank you
very much.
(Whereupon, Karen and Kathryn Lee were excused.)
TESTIMONY OF DOROTHY B. DE LA POLE, STAFF ASSOCIATE,
NATIONAL TEAVELEHS AID ASSOCIATION
The Chairmax. The next witness will be Miss Dorothy B. de la
Pole. Congressman Parsons will interrogate you.
Mr. Parsons. Give your name, address, and the association with
which you are connected, Miss de la Pole.
Miss de la Pole. Dorothy B. de la Pole, staff associate, National
Travelers Aid Association, New York.
Mr. Parsons. You have submitted quite a voluminous statement
here for the record which the committee will go over in detail. From
what I have read of it, it seems to be a very fine statement of the
work in which you have been engaged. I think it will be very helpful
to the committee.
Miss DE LA Pole. Thank you.
(The statement referred to is as follows:)
Statement by Dorothy B. de la Pole, Staff Associate, National
Teavelebs Aid Association
introduction
The settlement laws of the various States result iu the ueeds of a migi'aut
or nonresident person, who applies for assistance in a strange community, being
considered first in relation to the length of time he has lived iu that community
and only secondarily on the basis of his actual needs. The settlement law of
a State is designed to clarify and designate the financial responsibility of the
various towns, cities, counties within that State and of the State itself in
respect to destitute persons. In the nature of State legislation, it does not and
cannot reach beyond State boundaries to take into account the practical reality
that i)ersons move across State lines as well as within State boundaries. The
result has been a body of legislation which, taken together, presents extreme
variation both in legislative provisions and in the interpretation of these pro-
visions, and the lack of coordination and of reciprocal provisions among them
produce confusion, inequalities, and inconsistencies which make settlement
one of the great obstacles in meeting the problem of the migrant.
For many years practicing social workers and other students of this problem
have been trying to find ways of overcoming these difficulties either by the
elimination of the concept of legal settlement as a basis of eligibility for public
relief or, as a compromise, by the enactment of uniform settlement legislation
by all of the States. In spite of the considerable activity in this direction,
however, settlement legislation has continued to be made more restrictive.
Reference to exhibit A attached, "Summary of State Settlement Laws Showing
Changes from January 1938 to October 1939," shows that during 22 months
14 States made clianges in requirements to gain or to lose settlement, and of
these there were 7 States which changed both requirements. In general, these
changes are more restrictive ; requirements for gaining settlement increased ;
requirements for retaining settlement once gained are, with one or two ex-
INTEKSTATE MIGRATION 913
ceptions, made less definite or less protective by tbe introduction, for example,
of "intent" as a basis for determining whether a person left a community with
the intention of not returning, in which event settlement was automatically and
immediately relinquished.
Scope and plan of legal settlement study. — In order to gather factual material
which would reveal the present operation of the settlement laws — the extent
to which they work for or against the reasonable adjustment of persons who
are nonresidents in the community in which they apply for help — the National
Travelers Aid Association enlisted the cooperation of public and private
agencies in 15 communities earlier this year in a study of cases of nonresidents
in which service involved settlement factors.
It was not practical to conduct a Nation-wide study which would include a
report of all settlement cases served during a selected period throughout the
country and thereby show the total extent of the problem, but in order that
the findings might include information on the various situations encountered
State by State and regionally and provide a cross-section view, care was given
in selection of the communities which were invited to participate. Considera-
tions weighed in selection of cities were geographic and regional representation,
the inclusion of cities in States with recently increased or restrictive require-
ments, and of cities which were known to be experiencing current difficulty
either because of a new law in that State or because of conflict with laws
of the States from which a majority of clients came. The cities finally selected
were Chicago, Cincinnati, Houston, .Jacksonville, Kansas City (Mo.), Memphis,
Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Salt Lake City, San Francisco, Sioux City, St. Louis,
Washington (D. C), Westchester County (N. Y.), and Worcester.
Fifty-seven agencies, both public and private, sectarian and nonsectarian, par-
ticipated, and it may be of interest to know tlie numbers of each type of agency :
Num her
Organization : reported
Public relief agencies 22
Traveler^ Aid Societies 14
American Red Cross chapters 5
Family agencies (nonsectarian) 5
Salvation Army 3
Hospitals 2
Jewish agencies 2
Juvenile courts 2
Catholic agencies 1
Prison relief society 1
Total 57
During February 1940 each of these 57 agencies reported, on a schedule provided
for this purpose, each new nonresident case in which inquiry regarding the
person's settlement was made through telegram or correspondence with another
community. The schedules were held by the agencies until April 15, 1940, to
afford time for conclusive replies regarding settlement to be received and for plans
to be worked through in relation to these replies.
COMPOSITION OF CASES
'Number of cases. — Seven hundred and fifty-five cases were reported as a result
of this procedure, and these have been analyzed and the significant findings are
presented here.
As has been already indicated, these 755 cases reported by 15 communities can-
not be taken as representative of the extent of the problem, but they do show
the character of the problems met and the ramifications and variations in settle-
ment laws as well as the complex, human situations to which these laws must be
related in their administration.
Representation of States. — Each of the 4S States, the District of Columbia,
and Puerto Rico was represented in the State of presumed settlement of these
755 cases, which does indicate that the selection of cities was successful in pro-
viding a widespread distribution. In addition, there was 1 case from Mexico.
914 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Since the scope was limited, the number of cases reported as having come from
each State cannot be regarded as a measure of the extent to which the various
States contribute to the migrant problem, but with this reservation in mind it is
of some interest to examine table 9, "Number of cases, by State of supposed
settlement," which shows that in 85 instances the communication regarding set-
tlement was sent to a community in the same State as the city reporting; in
other words, intrastate cases ; of the remaining 663, communications were sent
to (fTS communities in other States ( including Puerto Rico, 1 ; Mexico, 1 ; and
4 in which the name of the State was not given).
Analysis of cases.— -There were 1,564 persons in the 755 cases reported, and
these fall into the following groups :
Unattached individuals 403
Male 272
Female 131
Individuals in family groups 1, 161
Adults 592
Children 569
Total 1, 564
It is important to bear in mind when considering these and other figures in
this report that this is a stvidy of cases involving legal settlement inquiry
opened during February 1940 and not a study of the transient problem itself
in these communities for this period. Not all nonresident persons who made
application for assistance during the period were accepted in most of these
communities, and of those accepted, in only a fi*action of the cases was inquiry
into settlement initiated, thereby making the case reportable.
In order to see more clearly the probable relationsliip of the 755 cases studied
and of the 1,564 persons in these cases to the general dependent transient
population from which they were selected, it may be helpful to consider the
situation reported by one of the cities which participated in the study.
An example of case selection. — Jacksonville, Fla., submitted certain supporting
information regarding their general transient problem duriiig the study period
and accompanied it by a letter from which this is an excerpt :
"Six agencies in Jacksonville cooperated with the study : Salvation Army,
Travelers Aid Society, Duval County Hospital, Jewish Welfare Agency, Family
Welfare Agency. District No. 6 Welfare Board. * * * During February
1940 these 6 agencies reported 803 new cases, of which 15 were intercity
inquiries ' and the rest nonresident individuals and families applying for
assistance.
"Surprising though it was to all participating agencies to learn the total
number of nonresident or transient families and individuals with whom they
had had contact during February 1940, and the amount of relief given
($1,135.88), the intake and expenditures were only nonnal for a winter month.
It is believed that these cases represent only a part, although what part we
do not know, of the borderline relief nonresident families and individuals in
Jacksonville or en route through Jacksonville during the month. Churches,
private charitable societies, fraternal organizations, and individuals helped
many transients, but there has been no way of determining the extent of this
assistance. Others, knowing the very limited assistance available, have made
their own plans by pawning, selling, or trading possessions to fulfill their needs.
Still others have panhandled, begged, or engaged in petty rackets for what they
needed. There is always an increase in the number of petty thievery cases
and those arrested on vagrancy charges during the winter months.
"Undoubtedly the intake of these six agencies would have been much greater
but for the restrictions placed upon them by policies and limited funds. It is the
policy of four of the agencies * * * to accept only residents of this county ;
only two ■ of the six, the Salvation Army and the Travelers Aid Society, are set
up to care for nonresidents."
1 Letters of inquiry from agencies in other States in wliich former Jacksonville residents
were stranded.
- Both supported by private funds.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 915
From the 803 cases, the 15 intercity inquiries should be deducted for our
present purposes in order to secure the number of applications made to Jackson-
ville agencies, a figure of 788. These 788 applications fall into 3 categories :
Those who received apparently adequate service and relief in relation to their
needs ; those who received emergency relief or care only ; and those who were
rejected and received neither relief nor service.
Table 3 shows that of the 788 applications, 49 were accepted for adequate
service and relief, 650 were accepted for emergency care only, and 89 were
rejected. The problems which brought the person to the agency have been
grouped and divided into —
Case-work service and relief.
Medical care.
Of 142 who requested medical care, 15 were ho.spitalized, 17 were registered in
the out-patient clinics, 57 were given emergency care, and 53 were rejected. Of
646 who requested either relief or assistance in returning home, continuing their
journey, an opportunity for adjustment locally, or some combination of these, 17
were accepted for complete service, which included necessary relief and inquiry
into settlement ; and of the rest, 593 were given emergency relief, which, in 463
instances, for example, was limited to overnight lodging without meals, and 36
were rejected.
The 17 cases which were accepted for adequate case work and relief service,
out of a total of 646 applications in this group, suggest a very real attempt to
make existing resources meet the needs judged to be most urgent. These cases
consist of 2 boys and 2 girls under 16 ; 6 boys and 1 girl under 20 ; a sick man.
37 : and 5 family groups — an elderly couple, a mother with 6 children, a mother
with 5 children, parents with 4 children, and a 24-year-old father and 19-year-old
mother with 2 children under 5 years old C17).
As we look now at the figures at the beginning of this section and in table 2 on
composition of cases, the Jacksonville example will serve to remind us that, in
the absence of facilities for provision for the needs of the nonresident group in
communities, the number of cases and the age. sex, and family composition of
those cases reported will be affected by the limitations in local resources for care
pending the working out of plans with the applicant, of which plans inquiry into
settlement would generally have been an element.
The unattached individuals. — Sex: There were reported in the 408 unattached
individuals almost half as many females as males, 131 to 272. This propor-
tion does not represent the relative needs of these 2 groups, nor the proportion
of unattached women to men in the nonresident population. It is inconsist-
ent with census returns on transient and migrant groups, since these in-
variably show an almost negligible proportion of single women to single men
The explanation will be found in the selective process which gives preference
to applications from women and girls over those from able-bodied single men
Ages: The age range of the unattached individuals is from 7 to 85 years
Table 4 gives the age distribution for these cases, bv age groups and bv citie=
The relative uniformity of the numbers in the several age groups, rather than
the marked increases normally to be expected in those of middle age a^ain
suggests a .selective tendency toward the young and the old, or a reluctance to
accept for possible return home the adult nonresident man.
u.sually following the settlement of the father. Therefore, the 'verification of
a minor's settlement is secondary to the discoverv of the settlement of the
adult through which his ii^ derived, a basis which mav be more obscure and
a process which, therefore, may be more involved than for an adult capable
of acquiring settlement independently. Where such questions enter in as
the father'.*? death or desertion, the minor's legitimacv or his emancipation
or his guardianship, or if the father's settlement is itself in doubt the diffi-
culties are multiplied.
.4 firerf.— Twenty-two persons over 65 were reported: 10 men. the oldest 85-
and 12 women, the oldest 84. The .settlement of persons over 65 years of age
presents, .since the enactment of the .social security program, an anomalous
situation, because it is frequently true that, regardless of legal settlement the
916 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
person can meet the residence requirements for old-age assistance by showing
a residence of 5 years out of the last 9. A case in point is that of John B :
Mr. B was born in Chicago and lived there for 59 years, when, in 1934,
he secTired work and moved to Wheeling, 111., and remained there until
the work ended in October 1937. He then returned to Chicago and on
February 13, 1940 (2 years and 2 mouths later), applied for public as-
sistance. He was held ineligible because of loss of settlement in Chicago.
Mr. B was now 66 years old ; he applied for old-age assistance and was
accepted. (It shouhl be noted that Mr. B had never been out of the State
of Illinois and that he had left Chicago only to accept employment.)
The families. — The 352 families included 100 couples without children and
252 family group.s of one or both parents with from 1 to 10 children. Table 6,
"Number of family groups, by number of children in families,*' shows that
whereas for the most part the families were small, there were 20 families
with 5 to 10 children.
The children. — One of the matters of grave concern to all persons interested
in this problem is the exposure and exploitation of children incurred by
migration of families. The child-labor problem among migratory and seasonal
workers has been for some time the special concern of governmental and
private agencies. Any program for infant welfare and health must be con-
cerned with the number of very young children who are reported in this
sample of cases.
Table 2, "Total number of persons in 755 cases reported by 15 cities," shows
the age groups into which these children are classified. Thei'e were 60 chil-
dren 1 year of ;ige and vmder ; there were 146 of preschool age — one through
5 years — or 206 little children. In the years when most children in this country
are expected to be in school (6 through 15 years), we find in this small group
of families 269 children, so that 475 children below the age at which children
are expected properly to be employed were on the road with their parents.
Only 90 of the 569 were 16 years or over.
Although these children are unable to establish settlement in their own right,
they are caught, nevertheless, in the net of settlement-law requirements, since
securing for them those things which we believe all children should have — food,
shelter, security, health, education, friends, and a reasonably happy family setting
in which to develop — will depend in a large measure upon the decision regarding
the settlement of their parents.
There are some families in this group in which parents and children are all so
young as to be regarded sociallj% if not legally, as minors :
John and Nellie M, 22 and 17 years old, infant, 7 months : Traveling ^ith
Mr. M's father, who has settlement in Blank, Iowa, hut only seasonal work
there. The young family has settlement in Kansas but refuses to consider
returning there, preferring to go on to father's place of settlement. Assistance
could only be given to settlement in Kansas, so they continued on their way
unassisted except for one meal each.
Marion T, 19, unmarried, and infant 5 weeks : Her settlement, being a minor
and unmarried, will be that of her father. However, her parents were mar-
ried 3 months after her birth, and by the law of her State an illegitimate child
is not legitimated by tlie sul)sequent marriage of the parents unless adopted
by the father. It has been impossible to determine whether adoption took
place. The father deserted several years ago; his present whereabouts un-
known. The settlement of the girl's mother (which the girl would take if no
settlement can be derived from the father) will depend upon the husband's
settlement and whether she has established a separate settlement since his
desertion. It is not surprising to learn that this case was still active at tlie
end of the study with investigation continuing.
One may well raise a question regarding this last case, as many others, as to
whether from the standpoint of the future welfare of this young mother and her
child primary consideration should be given to the legal or to the social aspects
of the situation. The discovery of a legal settlement for this young woman may
mean the acceptance of legal responsibility for her and her child by some com-
munity in which she has never lived and in which she has no ties which might
help her in facing a difficult future.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 917
Examples of difficulties met in planning for people m accordance tvith settlement
laws.— The difficulty both for the agency and for the nonresident person wliich
meeting requirements of the settlement laws presents is here partly illustrated:
Smtraes of inqviry for rerifivatioii of settlement. — It is a general practice to
hold the applicant responsible for supplying information upon which settlement
may be verified. In many States, either by law or administrative policy, acceptable
evidence is limited to some form of documentary proof, and the applicant may
experience honest difficulty in producing, for example, rent receipts, utilities re-
ceipts, motor-vehicle licenses, marriage certificate, divorce certificate, and in recall-
ing previous addresses by specific dates, street number, and name of landlord, over
an unbroken period sufficient to prove settlement. People do not usually compile
complete records of this type of information, and particularly would this be true
of the person who is away from home. Memory may serve for furnishing details
for 1 or 2 years back, but when, as in one case in this study, settlement is held to
be dependent upon the ability of a man to show a continuous period of residence
for the year 1932, at which time he was unmarried and living in various rooming
houses, it is not surprising that he would not be able to do this.
It must be borne in mind that an applicant may be required to furnish evidence
for proof of settlement in some other community, or of settlement in the com-
munity of application, in order to prove his eligibility for local public relief.
In one instance, in a community which required 1 year of continuous residence
immediately preceding application, a long-drawn-out investigation succeeded in
piecing together 16 mouths of continuous residence with the exception of one
10-day period which fell in the 16-month period in such a way as not to leave
an unbroken 12-month period of residence. With this gap, it was impossible to
establish settlement and eligibility for relief.
Comments on schedules emphasize the difficulties of investigation: "Delay in
establishing settlement as period to be verified, August li^CS to August 1926, is
so many years ago that records of renting agents are not available, and other
verifications difficult to obtain" ; "Correspondence to places where man received
previous care, to former employers, to the Navy Department, collecting data for
opinion as to settlement (probably none or New York City because of service
on ships registered there)." This 29-year-old man's physical condition is de-
scribed as follows : "Has multiple sclerosis with probably some mental deteriora-
tion. Does not realize he is permanently incapacitated. Staggers of£ on crutches.
C;(jnririually in penitentiary for vagrancy, but refuses permanent institutional
care. He 'will have to accept help soon and will need it as long as he live.**,
including h'^ispital care. Possibly eligible for care in soldiers' home if it can be
proved."
Intent. — The loss of settlement by leaving the State with intent not to return
is provided for in the statutes of several States. There are several disadvantages
to legislation of this kind, foremost of which is the difficulty in finding objective
means of determining intent as well as the necessity which may quite legiti-
mately arise for a person's changing his plans after leaving home.
Mr. and Mrs. R. and their son, 24. had lived in a Pennsylvania city for a
number of years and were receiving public relief there. The son qualified
on a Federal civil-service examination, and through a misunderstanding
expected to receive an appointment. The family welcomed this as an
opiwrtunity to become self-supporting. They sold their household goods
to provide money for transportation and went to Washington where it was
found that no definite prospects of a civil-service appointment existed. They
were held to have lost their settlement in Pennsylvania because of their
intent not to return. The city of Washington, D. C, has no provision through
public funds for the relief of nonresident persons, and the burden fell on
the privately supported agency whose limited relief funds were planned
for the relief of emergency distress and for care of persons pending investi-
gation for return.
Francis and Bertha J went from Minnesota to a town in Iowa where Mr. J
had a prospect of private employment. They made their home temporarily
with a resident relief family which, automatically, brotight them to the
attention of the public-relief agency and occasioned correspondence with the
Minnesota community in an effort to verify settlement there. The Minnesota
ifommunity denied settlement, with this comment : "Settlement denied on
gjg INTERSTATE MIGRATION
basis client has been out of State 3 months with intention of abandoning
residence." (Mr. J soon found private employment in another Iowa county.)
Albert and Alice R, 44 and 36 years of age, came to western Iowa from Min-
nesota, where they stayed with a brother-in-law who was working on Work
Projects Administration. The woman was fatally ill. Seven communications
were exchanged in an unsuccessful effort to place responsibility on the Min-
nesota community. Minnesota officials "believe that he left that State with
the intention of making his home in another State." They were unable to
verify the date of his leaving.
The schedule contains this additional comment : "Family made their own
arrangements for medical care under a doctoi- not recognized by the county
medical society. They have arranged to pay for this when the husband
secures employment."
The nonresident notice. — Only two or three States, among them, Iowa and South
Carolina, retain the procedure (familiar in colonial times) of utilizing the non-
resident notice as a means of preventing newcomers from gaining settlement. In
the case just referred to of Francis and Bertha J, the Iowa community imme-
diately served a nonresident notice "to protect local county." This would mean
that, regardless of the length of time the J family might live in that community,
the period would not count toward the establishment of settlement. Only by
appearing before the proper officials and notifying them of his intention to estab-
lish settlement and satisfying them of his ability for self-support could Mr. J
begin a period of residence whicli might ultimately lead to the acquisition of set-
tlement. It is obvious that this elaborate procedure would not be familiar to the
avei*age person who moves from one community to another seeking employment.
A nonresident notice was likewise reported as served on a 29-year-old widower
with a 17-months-old son, who moved to an Iowa town from Illinois. He returned
to Illinois and found that, regardless of the fact that he had lived in this State
many years, he could not comply with the 1939 Illinois settlement law which
requires 3 years' continuous residence without relief immediately prior to appli-
cation. This man and child were, therefore, without settlement in any place.
Complex settlement situations. — The several case summaries which follow serve
to illustrate complications which arise in discovering settlement :
Mrs. L, 27, and her nephew, 16 months : Mrs. L and her nephew have differ-
ent settlements ; the woman's husband deserted, his settlement is unknown,
and there is also a question regarding the legality of the marriage. The
child's mother was unmarried and is dead. Although Mrs. L has lived in the
community of application for a considerable length of time, she has not estab-
lished settlement because her settlement would follow that of her husband.
John J, 42, and a son and daughter, both under 21 years : The daughter has
been married and is separated, but not divorced, from her husband. Mr. J has
lost settlement in his place of foi'mer residence, but his minor son retains set-
tlement there in accordance with the usual provision that a minor's settle-
ment is the last settlement of the father. The daughter's settlement cannot
be determined because her husband's whereabouts and his settlement are inv
known. The agency caring for this nonresident family has received authori-
zation to return the son home, but authorization for the father's return has
been denied. Disposal of this family group in accordance with settlement
regulations would mean a separate plan for each and a breaking up of the
family.
Lawrence and Mary G, 3 children, 9, 4, and 2 years of age, and Mrs. G's
mother came to a large city in the Southwest because of Mr. G's serious ill-
ness. The grandmother is separated from her husband, whose whereabouts
are unknown : therefore his, and consequently, her settlement cannot be veri-
fied. This raised the question as to whether on the man's recovery the family
should be returned to their place of settlement while the grandmother re-
mained nonresident in the reporting community. No decision had been
reached in this case at the end of the study.
Mrs. A. and 6 children from 20 to 6 years of age : This case is referred to in
detail in another section of this report. The settlement issues involved are :
Mrs. A is not legally married to Mr. A, but he acknowledges paternity to the
youngest two of her six children. Mrs. A's legal husband, and the father of
the other children, has a settlement in a New England State. Mrs. A's settle-
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
919
ment does not follow his because of a provision in the law of that State which
requires that the wife must have lived with her husband during the period in
which he acquired settlement.
Restrictive settlement laws as an influence proniotinp non settlement. — The
Illinois settlement law. which became effective July 1. 1939, and which requires,
among its provisions, 3 years' continuous residence without relief immediately
preceding application in the township of application, has resulted in the rendering
of a large number of people nonsettled who under the previous settlement law
would have liad settlement. The agencies participating in Ihe study have sub-
mitted schedules on cases which illustrate various special problems, and when
this material did not meet the requirements of the study, it has been considered
separately. Sixty-one cases submitted by the Chicago Relief Administration
Transiwrtation Service, for example, have been analyzed and show the influence
which the present Illinois settlement law has upon increasing the number of
persons who are without settlement in any place.
Thirty-six of these 61 cases would clearly have had settlement in Chicago prior
to July 1, 1939. At least 1-5 more would probably have been considered settled in
Chicago because of long periods of previous residence broken only by brief periods
of absence from the township, so that 51 out of the 61 may be considered non-
settled as a result of the law itself. Some of tliese had lost settlement by moving
out of the township of Chicago to communities elsewhei-e in the State or within
Cook County itself:
Mrs. P, 72, was born in Chicago and lived here all of her life until October
1938 when slie went to Cicero (Cook County) to make her home permanently
with her son. In 1 month tlie son died and Mrs. P returned to Chicago. "Wlien
she applied for assistance after July 1, 1939, she was found to be without
settlement in any place.
Martha M had lived in Chicago 17 years. She accepted a domestic position
in a home in May wood. 111. (in Cook County. 10-cent elevated fare) and
worked there from March to Deceml^er 1939. When the work ended, she re-
turned to Chicago. In February 1940 she applied for public relief, and since
she could not prove her claim that she had retained her room in Chicago dur-
ing the period of her absence, she was found without settlement and ineligible
for public relief until December 1942.
Communities distressed by the problem of meeting tlie needs of nonresident
persons sometimes naively assume that the problem may be eliminated by increas-
ing settlement reqv;irements for relief. The experience of Illinois during the past
year should serve clearly to illustrate that the number of nonsettled persons in-
creases at least arithmetically and the diffieult,y of investigation with reference to
settlement increases geometricall,v in proportion to the length of time required t<>
establish settlement. A practical and humane view will face the reality that a
law which renders people in need ineligible for assistance does not eliminate the
people or their need in the community.
Expense -for relief and transportation. — Agencies were asked to report as com-
pletely as possible amounts expended on cases from public funds and from private
funds. Expenditures for institutional care as well as for direct cash disbur.se-
ments were asked for and amounts expended for transportation were divided by
source of funds — public, private, and from clients' resources. Various circum-
stances prevented tlie securing of a complete report of all relief expenditures and
of a complete break-down in the classifications requested. Insofar as these
amounts were reported, however, they yield this informatiou :
Total
Public
funcis
Private
funds
Clients'
resources
Relief |$8.621. 93
Transportation 2,282.01
Institutional care 4,402. 19
Total 15,306. 13
$4, 464. 11
1, 406. 15
4, 157. 82
519. 52
$356. 34
260370— 40— pt. 3-
920 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Particular attention sliould be given to tlie fact tliat an almost equal amount
was expended for relief by private and by public agencies. In four cities in the
group no public relief expenditure was made since there is in these cities no such
provision for nonresidents. The limited funds characteristically available to
privately supported agencies make these agencies unequal to the burden of fur-
nishing relief on any but the most limited scale. There would seem to be a par-
ticular responsibility resting on the community which restricts public relief to
those who can meet its residence requirements for making available neces.sary
emergency relief and case-work provisions for nonresidents, so that persons who
do not qualify for relief locally may be returned to the community in which they
would be eligible for relief. The settlement laws may render nonresident iK>rsons
ineligible for assistance in the community in which they apply. Lack of adequate
provision for investigative service and relief pending this inquiry may prevent
this person's enjoyment of his settlement rights in his own community. The
information presented from Jaclisonville, Fla., is an excellent example of this. If
we are to have settlement laws, then it is fair to ask that the people be protected
in the rights which settlement affords. This would mean the assumption of defi-
nite responsibility by agencies serving nonresidents for assisting thorn in the
discovery of place of settlement. This cannot be done without available funds for
the person's care while correspondence is in progress.
Administrative expense. — In considering expense in relation to the cases in this
study, the administrative expense including the cost of correspondence should
not be overlooked. In connection with the 619 cases in which conclusive replies
regarding settlement were received, 2,642 communications were exchanged — an
average of 4.3 a case. It is not possible to suggest an estimate of the cost of this
volume of correspondence, but back of tlie actual writing of the letters and tele-
grams must be realized the time and skill required for interviewing, for seeking
out sources of information and verification through visits and consultation of
documents. Sometimes the cost of correspondence in these cases has far out-
weighed the cost of relief provided for the individual or family pending comple-
tion of the inquiry. A pertinent question which may be well asked is, Does the
cost of writing 2,642 letters on 619 cases, which resulted in the returning of only
118 cases to their place of legal settlement with acceptance by the community
and assurance for their care on return, justify itself? Might the amount of
money involved in this administrative procedure have produced more lasting
results for a large group of cases and for all of the conmiunities involved if it
had been applied to meeting directly needs of these people with return to their
homes carried through only when it seemed that this would be a desirable and
constructive plan.
OUTCOME OF C.\SES IN BEXATTON TO SETIXBMENT STATUS
Of the 755 cases reported in this study, on which correspondence was carried
on to determine legal settlement, in 619 cases at the time the study closed, April
15, 1940, conclusive information regarding settlement had been secured. There
still remain 136 cases on which, although at least 46 days had elapsed, no con-
clusive reply had been received.
These 136 cases are excluded from consideration in this section of the report
which will be devoted to an analysis of the remaining 619 on which definite set-
tlement information was available. The details regarding this group of cases are
presented in table 7.
Of the group under discussion, there were, at the end of the study, 113 still
under the care of the reporting agency either because additional effort was being
made to establish settlement (34) or because the results of the correspondence
and the clienfs needs made his return to his supposed place of settlement inad-
visable (79). The remaining 506 cases had been closed by the reporting agency,
and we find from referring to the table the circumstances under which service was
discontinued :
Oases
Return to place or legal settlement 239
With authorization 222
Without authorization 17
Transferred to another local agency IS
Adjusted locally (secured employment, etc.) 76
Lost contact 160
Other , ^ 13
Total . 506
I
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 921
Retui-ned to legal se<»c»M?»f.— Correspondence directed at discovering the place
-f.f legal settlement has as its primary object the ultimate return of the client to
that place. It is therefore important to note that of the 755 cases m which this
was undertaken only 239 cases, or less than one-third, were returned to place of
legal settlement. , ^ ,. .^ ,^ ^
Criteria for return to settlement.— Since legal settlement by itself does not
assure a person's satisfactory adjustment in a community the responsible social
agency, before sending a person to another community, wishes to be assured
that the community recognizes him as a proper responsibility, that means will
be available there for assisting the person to, if possible, reest:iblish himself
on a basis of self-support, or, that failing, for providing for his basic relief and
health needs. Traditionally a settlement status has carried with it the right to
relief if in need. Moreover, it is customary that the return of legally settled
persons be authorized by the home community. In order to eliminate the plan-
less passing on of destitute nonresident persons from one community to another
or to the community of claimed settlement, standard social agencies have devel-
oped and are guided by a code, formerly known as the transportation agreement,
which requires that before transportation is furnished to another community,
the client's claim on that community, assurance of provision for his care on
arrival, and consent for his return will be verified or secured.
It will be understood, therefore, that the minimum essential criteria which
good practice requires to safeguard the client and the community will be met by —
An acknowledgment of the client's settlement status.
Authorization for his return.
Assurance of necessary relief on arrival.
In the light of these criteria, the circumstances under which these 239 cases
were returned home merit further consideration.
Settlement verified, return authorized, relief assured. — The first column of
table 7 shows the sis settlement classifications into which the cases fall on the
basis of information yielded through correspondence : Settlement verified, return
authorized, relief assured; settlement verified, return authorized, relief not as-
sured; settlement verified, return not authorized; settlement not determinable;
settlement denied ; without settlement in any place.
Only the first classification meets all three criteria and acknowledged settle-
ment status, authorization for return and the assurance of relief if needed after
return. Of the 619 cases, 155, or 25 percent, are classified here, and 104 of these
were returned home.
Relief not assured. — The second classification is the largest, with 178 cases, or
29 percent, reported in which the client's settlement is acknowledged, his return
authorized, but relief on return is not assured. Actually, in the majority of in-
stances, the communication from the home community carries the positive in-
formation that relief will not be available.
The same number of cases (104) were returned home in this classification as
were returned in the previous group in which all three criteria were met. While
proportionately this number is slightly smaller than the number returned with
the assurance of relief, the small degree to which lack of relief resulted in the
development of some other plan for the client is significant. It is true that some
of those returned under these circumstances may have had resources at home in
family, friends, employment, credit, which would have not in any case required
their receiving public relief grants, and that these persons may have returned
willingly and fared well after reaching home. But for the larger number for
which this was not true, one wonders what was gained for the client, for the
sending community, and for the home community.
How long did the person, or family, remain in the home community and under
what conditions ; did he start out soon again to seek opportunity which he could
not gain at home, and, if so, would he be less likely to seek and use the assistance
of a social agency after this experience of being "'transported" under circumstances
which protected the status of the sending agency but ol^ered no protection for
him?
The sending community was, at least temporarily, the gainer by the arrange-
ment. It was freed of an individual or family under circumstances (authoriza-
tion of return) which technically placed the sending agency beyond criticism
from the community of destination. With such a practice generally followed by
922 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
communities, however, tlie apparent elimination of responsibility for one family
or individual may prove, instead, to be an exchange of responsibilities. There
is abundant evidence to support the expectation that the family that has once
moved to secure better opportunity or to escape unsatisfactory conditions moves
again when the conditions of the first migration are again encountered. The
sending of mobile people to communities in which there is no provision for reason-
able security and opportunity should be considered as a practice which promotes
migration rather than reduces the necessity for it.
Settlement verified, return not anthorized. — This classification containing 22
cases is chiefly interesting because it is contradictory of the assumption that the
acknowledgment of settlement carries with it the obligation to authorize return
of the settled person or family to the community. This impression is so widely
accepted that the inclusion of this classification in the study schedule was con-
sidered by some persons to be without pertinence. The 22 cases reported in
this group reveal the intrusion of certain subjective factors into derisions on
settlement as, for example, the notation with reference to a 19-year-old boy,
"Return not authorized as boy is delinquent and on probation. Probation officer
suggests he return by hitchhiking." This is not so much a denial of authority to
return as an attempt to have the boy return home in the least comfortable, most
hazardous way, a way having particular disadvantages for a probationer. It will
not be surprising to know that this boy proceeded from the reporting city hitch-
hiking, and was later heard from some 600 miles farther from home. This is
not an isolated instance of the rejection of statutory responsibility on the whim
of an individual. A 16-year-old mentally retarded boy, whose home was in the
■same State as in the case just cited, was rejected with the comment, "Boy is
a behavior problem. Probation officer does not want him returned." Four of
these 22 cases were returned to their homes regardless of the lack of authori-
zation.
Settlement not determinaUe. — The difficulties of determining settlement in
any but the most simple situation are manifold. They impose a burden of
responsibility on the client with which it is sometimes beyond his ability to
cope, they increase the burden of administrative cost on the two or more agencies
involved in the inquiry to a point of serious financial expense and consume staff
time which might otherwise be used in direct service to these or other clients
of the agency.
The A family, consisting of parents and 6 children ranging from 6 to 20 years
in age, came to Houston, Tex., in September 1939. They made a down payment
on a tourist camp, but in a short time Mr. A was arrested on a charge of bigamy
and returned to an eastern State to stand trial. It developed that the A's were
not legally married and that the woman's legal husband, Mr. B, was believed to
be living in a Vermont town, and, apparently, had a settlement there. In an
effort to discover the legal settlement of "Mrs. A" and her four legitimate and two
illegitimate children (whose paternity was acknowledged by Mr. A), 22 letters
were exchanged by 7 agencies in 4 States during the period, February 27 to
April 15, 1940, and at the close of the study it had been impossible to reach a
decision.
The usual rule is that the wife and legitimate children take the settlement of
the legal husband. Illegitimate children take the settlement of the mother.
"Mrs. A" had not lived with her husband for at least 9 years and had at no time
lived in Vermont. The years spent with Mr. A in the State in which he was now
under arrest were of no significance relative to settlement since it was impossible
for her to establish settlement in her own right and she was not the legal wife
of Mr. A. The apparent place of settlement, therefore, seemed to be the settle-
ment of the legal husband in Vermont. If this could be established for "Mrs. A"
and the four children, the two illegitimate children would also have Vermont
settlement through the settlement of their mother. The agency in Houston pro-
ceeded accordingly. In the Vermont settlement law, Mr. B's wife's settlement did
not follow his (settlement for his four children probably would have been
Vermont, but this question was not raised) :
"A married woman who lived with her husband in a town he last resided in
for 3 years, supporting himself and family, shall be deemed to have gained a
residence in such town, and such town shall be liable for her support as a pauper.
An illegitimate child shall be deemed to have the residence of his mother, and the
town liable for the support of the mother shall be liable for the support of such
child (sec. 3919, as amended by No. 76. Public Acts of ]98r), Vermont)."
LXTEKSTATE MIGRATION 923
The situatiou which faced the family iu the meautiine in Houstou is described
iu one of the letters written in a final appeal to the State department of public
welfare in Vermont :
"You can easily see the family has no claim whatever on Texas, and we are
sure that they will suffer as there is no public relief agency here except this one,
and we are prohibited from assisting nonresident families. Families and indi-
viduals are udt considered residents here until they have been in Texas con-
tinuously for 1 year indepeudeut of relief. * * * The relief given by the
Travelers Aid Society is of a temporary nature, pending the return of families
to their legal settlement, or working out plans whereby they can maintain
themselves."
Settlement denied. — Seventy-five cases, representing 12 percent of the total,
classify as being denied settlement. Illinois figured prominently in this classifi-
cation since 19 of these 75 cases were denied settlement by communities in the
State of Illinois. This group of 75 cases may be considered with the next group.
Without settlemeiit in any place, for which there are 65 cases reported, or,
taken together, 140 cases without settlement status. These represent 23 percent
of the cases on which replies were received. The distinction between the two
groups is one of finality. In the first group, it will be seen from column 4 that
activity was continuing iu an effort to fix settlement in some community other
than the one which denied settlement or to further press claims on the denying
community, whereas in the latter group are those cases in which all effort to
discover settlement has been fruitless and activity has been stopped.
Other. — The remaining 41 cases classified as "Other" include special situa-
tions of which the largest group of cases involve minors whose return to
parents, themselves without settlement, was authorized on the basis of the
social desirability of reuniting members of family groups. The fact that there
were in all 14 such instances where the consideration of the welfare of the
individual took precedence over a strict interpretation of the law is encouraging.
Summary. — Of the 239 cases returned to local settlement in this study, 118
(104 in the first classification and the 14 cases of minors) were returned under
circumstances that suggest they would be provided for on arrival. The re-
maining 121 were returned under circumstances w^hich give doubtful promise
of reasonable provision.
Transferred to local agencies. — The 18 cases which were accepted for con-
tinued service by local social agencies, other than one of first application, are
distributed fairly evenly throughout the various settlement classifications. The
figures do not rise appreciably as one might hope for the groups whose settle-
ment is doubtful or denied. Such a rise might suggest the willingness of or ability
of social agencies to accept responsibility for persons without a settlement claim
on another community, thereby affording these individuals an opportunity to
establish roots in the community in which they now are as an alternative to
further, perhaps planless, migration.
Various factors may contribute to the reluctance of agencies to accept for
continued service and adjustment nonresident persons ; prohibitive laws and
restrictive local policies iu tax-supported agencies may prevent the acceptance
of cases of this type. Limitation of available relief funds in public and private
agencies may and often does impose a very practical barrier; primary concern
for the unmet needs of the local resident person may push to the periphery of
consciousness the needs of the nonresident who, it may be reasoned (since
migration for him has ijroved unsuccessful), should not have left home at all.
Adjusted locally. — Information is incomplete regarding the means of adjust-
ment for each of the 76 cases reported as adjusted locally. The majority se-
cured employment in the community, and for a number of others family or
other relatives in that commimity were willing and able to assume responsibility.
In this group of 76 cases whose difficulty was adjusted without return, we
may be touching the margin of the transient and migratory population whose
movement is attended by a sufficient degree of success that they do not come
to the attention of a social agency or undergo an inquiry into their settlement
status. These are the people who are protected by a larger reserve of money,
who do find employment perhaps seasonal in character, the income from which
tides them over periods of unemployment and pays their way to the next work
location; they are the people who by good fortune are not overtaken by illness,
accident, disappointment, and other unpredictable disaster. A shifting, ill-
defined line separates the successful migrant from the migrant who seeks help
924
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
in a strange community and, in so doing, becomes entangled in the complexity
of the settlement laws. Many of the 76 who succeeded while the settlement
inquiry was in progress in working out some arrangement which made further
assistance and, therefore, further inquiry unnecessary may be thought of as
having temporarily dipped below the line of independent migrancy. If the job
had been secured a short time earlier, we might never have heard of them at all.
Lost contact. — In this group of IGO ceases are included those 'wlio separated
themselves from the care of the agency withoiit a plan, so far as the agency
knew. They "departed" — they "became impatient at the delay in the reply
and continued on their way" — or they did not wish to remain to consider a plan
for their return. In the latter instance, the correspondence frequently bears
out their statement that there is no opportunity in the home community for
them and return would be useless. The distribution of these 160 cases in the
various settlement classifications is of particular interest when the number
reported for each classification is reduced to a percentage of that classification.
Table 8 gives the percentages in detail for the material presented in table T
and, combining the figures and percentages on "lost contact" cases, we have :
Settlement classification
Number
in tbis
class
Lost
contact
Percent
of class
Settlement verified, return authorized, relief a.ssured -
155
178
22
83
75
65
41
14
33
7
37
42
19
8
9.0
18.5
32.0
Settlement not determinable -
44.5
Settlement denied . -
56.0
Without settlement in any place _ ---
29.0
Other --.
19.5
Total
619
160
I 25.8
1 Percent of total.
These figures show that as the settlement status becomes less satisfactory^
the rate at which cases are "lost" increases. Few cases are lost in the first
class, but in the next classification, the denial of assurance regarding relief
at home brings a doubling of the rate of withdrawal from the agency's
attention. The proportions continue to increase rapidly until 56 percent of
those for whom settlement was denied break their relationship with the
agency. The rate drops for those "without settlement in any place," but at
the same time a much larger number of these cases (25 cases, or 38.4 percent)
are reported as being open and under the care of the reporting agency. Did
agencies have a greater disposition to continue service for those who had
entirely lost settlement, and did this afifect the willingness of the clients
to remain, or would the number of clients still under care have been larger
in the previous groups if it had been possible to persuade them, to remain?
In other words, did the client in all cases actually take the initiative for the
separation from the agency, or was he eucourased to do so when the agency's
hope of returning him home began to dim? We cannot answer the questions,
but in these 160 cases may be seen the process by which chronic, perhaps
purposeless, transiency develops with the possibility of movement becoming
an end in itself and a fixed life pattern from which it becomes increasingly
difficult for the person to extricate himself.
RECOMMENDATIONS
Consideration of the material in this study supported by conferences with
administrators of public and private social agencies directly concerned vdth
the problem, and by observation of conditions in the various sections of the
country lead to these recommendations:
(1) That provision for the needs of people should not be dependent upon
the length of time and the circumstances under which an individual has lived
in the community in which he applies for assistance, and that, therefore, the
elimination of settlement legislation as a basis for eligibility for public relief
is to be desired.
(2) Uniformity in settlement legislation among the States with the provision
that a settlement once gained is retained until a new settlement is established
would remove to a considerable degree the difficulties and privations which
the present unrelated legislation occasions.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
925
(3) That, in Aiew of the reality that settlement laws exist and that their
elimination or uniforu:^it.Y cannot he aecomplifjhed immediately, the Federal
Government, through the establishment of an additional category to the Social
Security Act, should make provision for the relief of migrant, transient, and
unsettled persons.
Categorical relief and assistance to transients under the Social Security
Act, administered in similar manner to the present categories, would provide
assistance for nonresidents in the locality where they applied for help and
would also provide relief and service facilities, characteristically not now
available or limited, for discovering the place of settlement and for assisting
the person to return there if this seemed socially desirable.
Table 1. — Total cases reported by 15 cities
City
Total
Unat-
tached
Family
groups
City
Total
Unat-
tached
Family
groups
Total
755
403
352
Pittsburgh
Salt Lake City
San Francisco
Sioux Citv .._
57
24
39
29
6
130
32
8
39
12
23
9
4
99
16
6
18
12
Chicago,
124
67
48
17
26
93
55
60
26
9
12
14
37
37
64
41
39
5
12
56
18
16
20
St. Louis.
Washington, D. C...
Westchester County.
Worcester
2
31
Kansas City
16
2
Philadelphia
Table 2. — Total number of persons in 755 cases reported by 15 cities
City
Total
Unattached
Total Male Female
Family composition— adults
Total Male Female
Total
Chicago
Cincinnati. --
Houston
Jacksonville
Kansas City
Memphis
Philadelphia
Pittsburgh
Salt Lake City
San Francisco
Sioux City
St. Louis
Washington, D. C.
Westchester County
Worcester -
1,564
272
131
256
336
273
162
132
37
46
255
93
109
45
62
71
12
191
65
13
103
74
41
33
31
3 !
8 i
48
10
14
8
12 I
16
2
20
62
41
37
5
12
51
17
16
11
15
20
2
30
16
1
City
Family composition— children
Total
1 year and
under
1 year
through
5
6 years
through
15
16 years
through
20
21 and
over
Not
reported
Total
r"
Chicago
Cincinnati
Houston
Jacksonville
Kansas City
Memphis
Philadelphia
Pittsburgh
Salt Lake City
San Francisco
Sioux City
St. Louis
Washington, D. C.
Westchester County
Worcester
569
110
62
55
17
12
117
29
40
14
12
26
4
42
25
4
926
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Table S.— Action taken on 788 non-resident applications by agencies in Jackson^
ville, Fla., during February 19^0
Level of service
Total
Adequate
Help with planning
Hospitalization
Out-patient service-
Emergency
Meals only..
Lodi2;ing only
Meals and lodging..
Emergency grants..
Rejected.
Total
Types of care
Case-
work
service
and
relief
Medical
care
1 17
17
593
463
90
32
32
None
1 These 17 cases are reported in this study.
> Requests for service or relief 36; for medical care 53.
Table 4. — Ages and sex of unattached persons reported by 15 cities
Male
Female
>o
lO
o
>o
•o
"a
t2
X
IN
CO
a>
^
Si
CO
txi
bH
60
to
be
3
3
3
3
3
3
D
3
a.
■O
^^
o
O
o
a
o
■73
f,
,..,
o
y
o
T)
fi
5
o
CO
J3
CD
?3
J3
CO
CO
o
o
CO
CO
IN
S3
CO
si
o
Total
403
272
29
77
32
77
37
10
10
131
14
36
19
33
15
12
2
Chicago . .
60
26
9
12
14
42
11
5
9
9
11
2
2
2
?.
12
4
2
6
R
2
1
8
2
1
6
1
2
2
1
1
18
15
4
3
5
4
2
3
4
1
1
3
1
1
3
7
4
3
1
1
2
2
Cincinnati
1
Houston
Kansas City
Memphis
37
?0
1
10
3
9.
o
2
17
1
8
1
5
2
Philadelphia
37
20
2
3
7
6
1
1
17
3
3
4
4
3
Pittsburgh
34
?7
3
5
3
4
."i
1
1
1?
3
3
•/.
1
2
1
(»
Salt Lake City ..
1?
11
3
?.
4
1
1
1
1
San Francisco
23
14
1
1
4
5
3
9
2
6
1
Sioux City
9
7
1
(t
?.
3
1
?,
(I
(1
(1
(1
1
1
St. Louis.
4
99
2
R1
2
2
23
9
36
n
2
18
1
5
3
5
1
1
2
Washington .
Westchester County
16
9
2
1
4
1
1
7
2
3
2
Worcester
6
5
1
2
2
1
1
Tabue 5.
—Children and young persons
reported by 15 cities
.\ge groups
Total
Unattached
In
Male
Female
families
Total - - . - -
700
106
50
544
60
146
312
182
29
77
14
36
60
1 through 5 . .. .
146
6 through 15
269
16 through 20 _ . .
69
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 927
Table 6. — Number of family groups by number of cMldren in families
City
Number of families, by size
Total
Chicago
Cincinnati
Houston
Jaclcsonville
Kansas City
Memphis
Philadelphia
Pittsburgh.
Salt Lake City
San Francisco.-
Sioux City
St. Louis
Washington, D. C__
Westchester County
Worcester.. _
352
100
252
61
T.^BLE 7. — Outcome of cases in relation to settlement status
Still open
a
T3
!-
CI
5§
a
o
Sd
^<u
— bj;
a
m"
a g
a
>
^
o
o
H
<
«
619
113
34
79
155
15
3
12
178
18
1
17
22
6
4
2
83
22
8
14
75
19
16
3
65
25
25
41
8
2
6
Basis for closing
_
Returned
to legal
settlement
o
>.
■^ >,
"3
3 C
3a
^3
O
o
c* °
=3 o
!-«
-3
3 ca
o
a
2
^3
-..■^
IT" •^
2
•c
^^
f* ■^
H
<1
iJ
222
17
18
76
160
104
3
16
14
104
2
17
33
4
2
3
7
M
4
5
12
37
2
1
10
42
4
2
13
19
«13
3
3
5
8
Total
Settlement verified — return authorized— re-
lief assured
Settlement verified — return authorized— re-
lief not assured
Settlement verified — return not authorized..
Settlement not determinable
Settlement denied
Without settlement in any place
Other
506
140
160
16
61
56
40
33
13
' Minors whose return to nonresident parents was approved.
928 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Table 8. — Outcome of cases in relation to settlement status in percentage
still open
Basis for closing
•S
£
Returned
?
S
to les;al
<o
a
settlement
03
So
C3
s
o
t>.
ca
Im
ii'-S
C
_
.2
x:
o
3
o
o
"S
a
>
'3
4
a o
3 g
3
a
8
^
o
o
^
»
o
%
%
03
T3
S
t!
ir^
H
<
«
O
&^
<
f:)
o
Total-.
100.0
18.2
5.5
12.7
81.8
35.9
2.8
2.9
12.3
25.9
2.1
Settlement verified— return
authorized — relief assured
100.0
9.7
1.9
7.7
90.3
67.0
i.y
10.3
9.0
1.9
Settlement verified— return
authorized — relief not as-
100.0
10.1
.6
9.6
89.9
58.4
1.1
9.6
18.0
2.2
Settlement verified— return
not authorized . _
1 100.
Settlement not determinable...
100.0
26.5
9.6
16.9
73.5
1.2
4.8
6.0
14.5
44.5
2.4
Settlement denied
100.0
25.3
21.3
4.0
74.7
2.7
1.3
13.3
56.0
1.3
Without settlement in any
place .
100.0
' 100.
38.4
38.4
61.6
6.2
3.1
20.0
29.2
3.1
Other
' Percentage not computed on base less than 50.
Table 9. — Number of cases by supposed state of settlement
Number of cases
State
Number of cases
State
Total
Inter-
State
Intra-
state
Total
Inter-
state
Intra-
state
18
5
22
24
3
7
2
8
13
27
6
40
15
15
6
22
10
2
13
21
21
11
12
36
4
6
1
18
5
22
22
3
7
2
8
13
27
6
27
15
4
6
22
10
2
13
14
21
11
12
36
4
6
1
2
--
..
7
New Hampshire
3
21
1
48
18
1
48
15
5
41
2
25
2
39
38
3
2
26
11
13
14
1
1
6
1
3
21
1
45
18
1
36
15
5
40
2
25
2
25
17
2
2
26
11
13
14
1
1
New Jersey .
New Mexico
New York. ... _
3
North Carolina.
North Dakota
Ohio
12
Florida
Oregon
Pennsvlvania..
1
Rhode Island . . .
South Carolina ...
South Dakota..
Tennessee
14
Texas
21
Utah
1
Vermont
Virginia.
Washington.
West Virginia
Wisconsin
Minnesota
Wyoming...
Puerto Rico
Mexico - - .
Total
755
663
85
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
929
qj^r
o 2
ri S ^ a:
— tc te ^ O g
03 S
r^-
•si
^O
^, QJ 3 *- ~o •« '^
1^
o
O
o
It
Tj3-t-5
«.2
CPQ
C3 O i
1g|.^ ^^^
I-cS^
53 J2
•^ O
° '5) c bc e
il|l|iil'^iicii-ff|i||iii
■^ is.
^ f^ 9^
^8
5 >■. « 'g
3 03 03 O « §
: °:43 S g $; S
930
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
og
^
1^ "i ^-
a c2 K_. "tt
^ ^ <a ^
o
O
.5
03 G
2 o
^- =8 S
l^^s
i3^ '^%
C.S c
O^ o
s s
% o3 .
Q) o 0) o tl;,
S tc
S K
.9 "^
■^ o
Ci-
H 03
o ■" .
Ul
^5«
^
o
T'^
O
ts S-<
MO-O
iii
a -'■<
S O m
>>
tH 03 fe
3
o J3 f
■3 So ts
H
y It
nee
ion,
alT
twe
nb
fere
ciat
ion
pip-
t>0 m la ffj b
n
- 3 H-"
d5 (> »^
.9 2 a ot:
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 931
INCREASING RESTRICTIONS OF SETTLEMENT LAWS
Mr. Parsons. Will you explain to the committee the mamier in
whicli this material was obtained, with respect to the settlement laws,
especially?
Miss DE LA Pole. I will be glad to. I would like to start with
just a word as to why the study was made at all, because that is, I
ithink, of interest.
Mr. Parsons. Very well.
Miss DE la Pole. 'The Travelers Aid Association is very much
concerned ami troubled by the variation in settlement laws and the
difficidties experienced in "working within the structure of the settle-
ment laws. Late last year in checkino; recent changes in legisla-
tion among States, we found that in spite of the fact social workers
had been hoping settlement laws would get better and less restrictive
and more reasonable, settlement laws in most States are becoming
much worse.
I think you will be interested in referring to the chart which
accompanies the statement which we have presented which shows
the changes in settlement laws during the 22-month period up to
October of last year.^ It shows that 14 States in 22 months changed
their settlement" laws, some of them both making the time required
to gain settlement more restrictive and the time required in which
settlement could be lost, somewhat easier, or vaguer, which in itself
is a disadvantage to a person.
Mr. Parsons. No State reduced its time limitation; all went up
instead of down?
Miss DE LA Pole. That was the trend; yes. It is awfully hard
in balancing the two pieces of legislation to get a net balance for
each State, but the trend was definitely, very definitely, up.
Mr. Parsons. Yes.
Miss DE LA Pole. For instance, three new States went into the
3-year group. One dropped out of the 6-inonth group and three
dropped out of the 1-year requirement group. As I said, three went
into the 3-year requirement group. If you analyze the chart, you
will see it moves to the right. It moves to make settlement more
difficult.
We felt in the national association that if we could get a group
of current cases of people caught in the settlement situation that
would show in what instances settlement laws were working rea-
sonably Avell and were protecting peo])le and making it possible to
do something for them, and in what instances and under what cir-
cumstances settlement laws did not work well, that that might be
of interest to various groups of people — we did not Ivnow that this
committee would be interested in it at that time — ^but, groups of
this kind, and this was one of the groups we had in mind. We
could not make an extensive study. We could not try to find out
how many people there were in the whole country at any given
time.
1 See chart, pp. 929 and 930.
932 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
However, we thought we could get a group of cases wliich would
show a general picture of the situation, and would give some indi-
cation of how widespread the problem is.
Mr, Parsons. We think there are upwards of 4,000,000 people
who are more or less on the road.
Miss DE LA Pole. You realize, a private agency could not under-
take a study involving a total of 4,000,000 people.
Mr. Parsons. Certainly not, but by a group study you could get a
cross section which would do very well for illustrative purposes.
Miss DE la Pole. I think that is what we tried to do, jGongressman.
We selected, or tried to select, 15 cities in different areas of the country
which would be apt to give us cases in which the laws of the different
sections that were giving trouble would be represented. You may be
interested in the names of the cities, although they are in the statement.
We selected Chicago, Cincinnati, Houston, Jacksonville, Kansas City,
Mo. ; Memphis, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Salt Lake City, San Fran-
cisco, Sioux City, Iowa; St. Louis, Washington, D. C; Westchester
County, N. Y. ; and Worcester, Mass. We had a special reason for
putting each of those cities in.
AVhile we do not expect that the sampling we have made will bear
any relation to the total problem in any special region, it is interesting
to note that in the 755 cases reported in this statement by these 15 cities,
every State in the Union was represented. That is, one or more cases
came from every State in the Union. In addition, we had one from
Puerto Rico, and one case from Mexico.
With respect to the question raised earlier, in the morning session,
as to the places from which people are coming to Chicago, whether they
are coming from rural or from urban areas, and from what States
they are coming, we do have available if it would be of interest, I have
not tabulated it. If you would like to have it, I will be very glad to
furnish it.
Mr. Parsons. I would be vei^y glad to have it for the record. You
may send it to the committee at Washington, and it will be made part
of the formal record.
Miss DE LA Pole. I believe they contain some interesting information.
Now, in these 15 cities we asked various social agencies interested in
this problem to cooperate with us in reporting for a 1-month period,
the month of February, each new nonresident — let me restate that:
Each new nonresident case which applied in February, in which the
case work service involved an inquiry into settlement. It is not a study
of all transients. It is not even a study of all transients that were
accepted. It is a study of the transients who were accepted, and with
respect to whom an inquiry into settlement was made. I want you to
know that, because your 4,000,000 people are back of this.
There were 57,000 in the 15 cities that cooperated in this study. Al-
most half of those are agencies supported by public funds, and the
others a variety of agencies under private auspices.
SETTLEMENT LAWS ADVANTAGE TO PERMANENT RESIDENT
Mr. Parsons. You will furnish the complete study when it is fin-
ished ?
Miss DE LA Pole. Yes.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 933
Mr, Parsons. For the benefit of the committee?
Miss DE LA Pole. Yes.
Mr. Paksons. Are the settlement laws an advantage and protection
to those persons in the State who have settlement, if they have to bear,
at least in more recent years, the burden of taxation for this public
relief that is given in order to take care of those who are traveling?
Miss DE LA Pole. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. Do you not think the settlement laws are an advan-
tage in one respect?
Miss DE LA Pole. They are an advantage to the person who has
settlement and who stays at home, provided there is a public-relief
program of reasonable adequacy in that community in which he has
settlement. The person who leaves home for some of the reasons we
have alreadj^ been considering then is influenced by two settlement
laws. He is influenced by the settlement law of his own State, the
State from which he is going, and he is also influenced by the settle-
ment law of the community in which he finds himself in need, but
without settlement.
Most of those laws make nonresident persons ineligible for relief,
and this in most comnumities means ineligible for even temporary
relief, which would give time for an inquiry which would discover
that person's place of settlement, and get him back to it. Therefore,
the lack of relief for nonresidents has a very great force in getting
people who have settlement attention from the State of their own
settlement. I think that is an important point, I want to be sure
I am making it clear.
Mr. Parsons. You stated in your article here that the settlement
law served to increase the number of nonsettled persons.
Miss DE la Pole. Yes.
Mr. Parsons, Will you explain from your studies how you think
that has happened ?
Miss DE LA Pole. Of course, your settlement law is not the only thing
that creates nonsettled persons. It creates the category of nonsettled
persons.
Mr, Parsons. We might apply the terms "settled" and "nonsettled"
on tlie basis of the settlement law itself, but the generally accepted
term of "nonsettled" so far as the individual is concerned, denotes
those people who are migrating from place to place in the hope of
finding work, or the self-supporting migrant who travels to different
agricultural regions such as the South and East,
We found a very large number of people who started out in the
winter working in Floi'ida, and as the season came North, they came
North with it, and finally wound up in the middle of the summer or
early fall up in the nortliern part of the country. They are more or
less self-supporting migrants. It is that type of migrant we do not
want to abolish completely. They are needed. The people need
them to come in and perform this work. By the generally accepted
term "nonsettled." we mean that type, those who are on the road.
Now, you say settlement laws tend to increase the number of non-
settled persons.
934 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
MIGRATION INCREASED BY PRESENT SETTLEMENT LAWS
Miss DE LA Pole. I tliink one very good example of that is in a
group of cases that were reported in this study, but which we did not
inchide in the 755 cases in the original study, because it was additional
material that one of the agencies in the city of Chicago sent in to
illustrate a particular angle of the law. There were about 300 in this
particular group of case.-: in which people had lost settlement because
of the law, not because of anything particularly that the person did.
There was one group, for example, of 61 submitted by the Chicago
Relief Administration Transportation Service — this is on page 20
of the statement — 61 cases submitted by the Chicago Relief Adminis-
tration Transportation Service, for example, have been analyzed and
show the influence which the present Illinois settlement law has upon
increasing the number of persons who are without settlement in any
place. Of these 61 cases, 36 would clearly have had settlement in Chi-
cago prior to July 1, 1939. At least 15 more would probably have
been considered settled in Chicago because of long perio3^s of previous
residence broken only by brief periods of absence from the township.
Therefore, it is fair to say that 51 out of 61, or five-sixths of this
group of cases were made nonsettled by the enactment of the new
Illinois law.
That does not represent the total picture. That is just a block
of cases sent in by one agency. I think perhaps an example will
illustrate to you the way the settlement laws can pull people's roots
up for them. For example, a woman who had lived all of her life
in Chicago, who was 72 years old, went to Cicero, which is also in
Cook County, to make her home with her son. She intended to live
permanently with her son. That is, she intended to make her home
there permanently, as far as she knew. After 1 month her son died,
and she came back to Chicago. She had been out of the township
and had lost her settlement in Chicago. She had no claim on the
township of Cicero.
She is 72, and has lived all of her life here. Probably a woman 72
will not take to the road, although we have in our studies an un-
attached woman of 84 and some past 70 who are on the highways
alone, and are without settlement. A younger, more vigorous per-
son — that might be the one thing that might make them a very likely
recruit for this migrant group.
Another woman had lived in Chicago 17 years. She accepted a
domestic position in Maywood, 111., which is also in Cook County,
and which only requires a 10-cent elevated fare to travel to from
Chicago. She worked there from March to December 1939. She re-
turned to Chicago when the work ended. In February 1940 she ap-
plied for public relief, and since she could not prove her claim that
she had retained her room in Chicago during the period of her ab-
sence, she was found without settlement and ineligible for public
relief until December 1942.
That is operating to make people without settlement, not because
of anything they have done or anything they could have foreseen.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 935
They would have to be much more sophisticated than they are to pro-
tect themselves aoainst this sort of thing.
Mr. Parsons. I think we will all ajjree that something should be
done at least to equalize the period or to make the States conform
to one particular period, if it is possible to do it. We would like to
see uniformity. At least, that would be a step in the right direction.
The committee feels that most of the witnesses who have appeared
before the connnittee in the other two hearings, as well as here, agree
with that. The question is. How are we going to do it ^ Do you
have an}' suggestions to make?
UNIFORM SETTLEMENT LAWS
^Miss DE LA Pole. Theoretically, I am one of the people who believe
in no settlement law. Practically, I think that may be idealistic, and
that uniform settlement laws may be the thing for us to hope for. It
may be more practical.
On the other hand, I have looked at these reports coming in on
these cases, and I realize that we are so far from uniformity now
that it seems it would be a tremendous task to achieve or accomplish
imiformity. There are 11 States which require 1 year to gain settle-
ment and 1 year to lose settlement, so at least 11 States have uniform
settlement laws in that group. Still, the infinite variety in interpre-
tation of special requirements in the settlement laws, and special pro-
vision, brings us to the point where probably no 2 States, regardless
of what length of time to gain a new settlement is specified — probably
no 2 States have anything that approaches a uniform settlement
law.
I am wondering, actually, whether there is a reasonable possibility
of getting uniformity of legislation. I do think that the recommen-
dation which was made this morning, with which we also would be
in sympathy, of a jjrogram which would ]3rovide grants to the States
similar to the social-security program, with certain standards fixed by
the Federal Government, or by the Social Security Board, might
give us in effect a uniform settlement law, as it has in some of the
other social-security categories.
AVlien you look, as you are looking, at the statement later, you
will see we have one section showing the complexities met in dealing
Avith settlement laws. You see all of the varieties of things that can
happen. For instance, with respect to a minor's settlement, the law
says that a minor takes the settlement of his father, but if the minor
has been emancipated, he does not. If his father's settlement is in
doubt, he does not. If he was born illegitimate, he would take the
settlement of his mother. In some States if a child is born illegitimate,
the subsequent marriage of the parents makes the child legitimate,
and the child's settlement would be that of his father. However, in
some States, the mere marriage of the parents of an illegitimate child
does not legitimize the child, and in cases where no settlement can
be derived from the father, the child takes settlement from the mother.
Those are the things you try to discover as you try to administer
settlement laws, which make it very difficult.
260370 — 40 — pt. 3-
93(3 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
WORK OF NATIONAL TRA\^ELERS AID ASSOCIATION
Mr. Parsons. What is the purpose of your associatiou? You do
j'ot disburse funds yourself, but you are a national association that
is in contact with the local units of Travelers Aid?
Miss DE LA Pole. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. Will you explain for the benefit of the committee
]ust what the purpose of your association is, and how it functions?
Miss DE LA Pole. Well, the National Travelers Aid Association,
with which I am connected, is the central association, or central clear-
ing house, for local Travelers Aid Societies in the various communi-
ties. The local Travelers Aid Society carries membership in our
association and the membership is based upon their meeting certain
minimum standards. . The local Travelers Aid Society is locally
supported and draws most of its support through the community
chest in the community. Are you interested in my saying something
further about our functions ?
Mr. Parsons. Yes.
Miss DE LA Pole. Our association acts as a central clearing house
and information exchange among the Travelers Aid Societies. There
is a definite responsibility placed on us by the field for developing
and improving standards of service throughout the field and for de-
veloping and disseminating information.
As we woik with people who pass from one city to another, our
agencies have to be closely geared between cities. The effectiveness
of the operation of Travelers Aid Societies depends a great deal upon
this gearing together of cities, because they are dealing with people
who move about and they cannot follow thein through themselves.
We also have a responsibility for keeping in touch with trends in
this whole field of moving people, both those that Travelers Aid is
able to serve, and the general group of moving people which forms
the background for the service our societies are able to provide.
For example, a study of settlement laws and trends, we feel is
quite a definite part of this more general problem, and we feel it
is a responsibility of ours to study causes of migration and try
to give what leadership we can in developing satisfactory programs
and plans.
Mr. Parsons. Do your local Travelers Aid Societies keep up with
the people that are traveling across country from one State to an-
other State, and submit records upon people who are stopping at
the different places as they go through?
Miss DE la Pole. We are what we call a social case-working agency
and keep the usual records, the standard case records that are kept,
that is, individual records on cases assisted. Those are confidential
records, of course. You know the nature of them. We do not have
an information exchange regarding moving people that goes between
our societies. Is that what you had in mind?
Mr. Parsons. Yes.
Miss DE LA Pole. We do not have reports on all individual cases,
but when one society has an individual as shown in this report, who
belongs in another city, or whose roots, interests, and resources lie
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 937
ill another city the two TraA'elers Aid Societies gear themselves into
\\orking relationship in, order to decide which city offers the best
opportunity for that particular person, where the resources are that
can be tapped for him, and what is going to be the most reasonabla
and helpful outcome. We do not have listings that we send from
city to city.
Mr. Parsons. How long have you been connected with this work^
Miss DE LA Pole. Well, more or less continuously for about 18 years.
Mr. Parsons. It must be very interesting work.
Miss DE la Pole. It is interesting, but very distressing sometimes
Avhen we feel there are many people that need a great many things
done for them, but we are handicapped in not being able to do it.
Mr. Parsons. Yes.
Miss DE LA Pole. We are looking with great hope toward the report
your committee is going to release.
FEDERAL TRANSIENT PROGRAM
Mr. Parsons. What do you suppose would have happened if the
Federal Government had not come to the relief of the transients in
1933?
Miss DE LA Pole. Of course, we know what was happening at the
time they did come to the relief of the group w-e are discussing. Per-
sonally, I spent time almost continuously in the field during the
somewhat over 2 years that the Federal transient program was in
operation. While we had no official connection, there again, because
of our general interest in the field, we gave a good deal of informal
consultation, encouragement, and information service. I visited
most of the transient camps in a number of States I traveled in.
Some of us felt that the Federal transient program had a very
advanced social conception of what a social work program should
be. I think, personally, it was a young program. Nothing as lar<»-e
as that in 2 years could expect not to have made some mistakes, or to
be open to some criticism. I think it was too bad that after 2 years
the experience, which was considerable, w^as lost because if we had
had that program modified and developed as it should be, wath some
changes in the administrative plan for it, w^e would have something
that would mean a great deal to the wdiole country.
Mr. Parsons. Out in the rural sections — what I am going to say
is not true in the cities, because there is no soil in the cities to go
to— during that 2- or 3-year period from April 1933 to Julv 1. 1936,
when the Federal Government withdrew from giving aid to the-
States, there was a lot of encouragement lent to people to accept
relief, and thereby avoid responsibility for providing for themselves
even though they had acres of land upon which to^ do so. In that
respect it invited a lot of people to come to relief who never should
have received, perhaps, direct relief. They should have had farm
security loans. Or, after Ave started the W. P. A. Avork, after the
months in the Avinter, they could have gotten along themselves.
HoAveyer. Avhen they Avere invited to come into the relief picture,,
they quit growing gardens, because relief told them that if they
938 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
had a cow, chickens, and a team, it made no difference then how
mnch hind they owned, and if they had those thinos they could not
obtain any relief aid, so as a consequence, they sold the team, the
chickens, and the cow, in order to ^o on relief. Many instances of
that occurred ri^ht in southern Illinois. We know it happened in
other places. They were out in the wide open spaces, and if they
had been helped with a small loan or enconra<>;ed to o;row gardens,
raise more chickens, raise more pigs, and so forth, they would then
have been self-reliant, so it was not altogether the fault of the indi-
vidual. Part of it was the fault of the relief worker, or social-service
M'orker in not explaining to the individual how he could help himself,
and then enconrage him to do so.
I tremble to think what might have happened if the Federal
Government had not come to the aid of the States in 1933. Do
you think there would have been riots and bloodshed right here
in the city of Chicago?
Miss DE LA Pole. I doubt if there would have been. I think people
are surprisingly patient. I Avas in the public-relief program in
Chicago at that time, and sometimes some of lis wondered why
they did not riot, but they did not, and that is greatly to their
credit.
Mr. Parsons. Certainly; it is to their everlasting credit, but people
will not sit down and starve to death.
Miss DE LA Pole. People should not.
Mr. Parsons. Mothers and fathers will not sit down and let their
children starve either. They might starve themselves, but they are
not going to let their children starve.
Miss DE LA Pole. No.
Mr. Parsons. I think it was ]Mr. Willard. president of the Balti-
more & Ohio Railroad, who came to AVashington in 1932 or 1933.
I know his statement was hailed very widely because he was the
first big-business man to say it. His statement was that he himself
would steal before he would permit his wife and his children to starve.
Of course, we were upon the brink of breeding a very large crime
wave at that time.
Miss DE la Pole. They get hurt when they steal. It is too bad if
they are put in a position where they have to do something else.
Mr. Curtis. May I ask a question ?
Mr. Parsons. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Were you through?
Mr. Parsons. Yes; I am through. I wish to say that this is a very
fine statement you have submitted, Miss de la Pole, and we appre-
ciate it.
Mr. Curtis. It is true that most people prefer to have a home and
stay there?
Miss DE LA Pole. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. It is usually crying necessity that forces them to leave
it?
Miss DE LA Pole. I think that is correct ; yes.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 939
Mr. Curtis. It seems to me there are two phases of this problem:
One is the care of the victim and how that shoukl be divided between
the local, State, and National responsibility; and the other one is
some attention to the problem and condition that forces people to
leave their home.
As a representative of the social-worker group who are doing a fine
work in administering care to the victim, do 3^ou have any sugges-
tions in regard to the other angle of the problem dealing with those
basic economic ({uestions, and so forth, that have made it difficult for
people to stay on the land, or who lose their jobs, or the like?
CAUSES or MIGRATION
Miss DE LA Pole. I am very glad to be given an opportunity to correct
what may have been a false impression I may have given in my state-
ment. I would not want it to appear that I would speak only for
Federal relief for nonresident persons. We seem to overlook the fact
that many persons are nonresidents and in need of that relief because
of needs that they had in their own communities which resulted in their
leaving their own connnnnities. Therefore, anything I would suggest
in regard to a Federal program for nonresidents would certainly, I
hope, be part of a general provision for people who are in need, regard-
less of whether they are residents or nonresidents.
We know that people move because they are pushed or pulled or both.
Certainly as we travel about the country, we see what is happening ; we
see many forces that are pushing people quite logically out of the place
where they ordinarily would consider to be their homes. I know there
are some sections in this country where that has occurred. I know that
in the Dust Bowl section that is true, and there are many other sections
of tlie country v.liere that is true. I think one section perhaps is pub-
licized more than another. There are many sections in the country in
which it makes very good sense for people to move from that section to
another section.
If you do not mind, I would like to. at this time, introduce another
idea in relation to some of the discussion which occurred this morning,
where the question was asked a number of times as to whether in the
opinion or observation or experience of the people who were appearing
as witnesses, relief seemed to be a factor which was making for move-
ment; that is, whether people were moving in order to get better
relief, and whether they were moving to areas on a higher relief
standard. I wonder if it w^ould not be quite reasonable to suggest
that the particular sections of the country that have higher relief
standards are also sections of the country that have greater economic
opportunities, and that the person may be moving not because of
higher relief standards, but because that is a section of the country
which is able to have higher relief standards, because of some other
things it happens to have.
It seems to me that that would relate somewhat to the question you
have asked.
940 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mv. Curtis. With respect to tlie peo])le you have come in contact
with, these families and these individuals who are homeless and job-
less, has it been your observation that they are part of a mass exodus,
or are they individual cases of hardshi]) that have befallen that par-
ticular individual or family?
Miss DE LA Pole. Speaking from my own observation, which may
be somewhat limited because our agency works more on individual
cases, or at least from the standpoint of the person who is moving —
his case as an individual — he does not usually see his own situation
in relation to general economic conditions clearly enough to be suffi-
ciently wise to protect himself. The person, each individual person,
seems to think that he can get a job even if the papers say that he
-cannot.
Mr. Sparkmax, His problem is that of an individual ?
Miss DE LA Pole. That is true. I think we credit these people with
much more sophistication and much more wile than we are justified
in doing. If people leave home to get relief, they are very unwise,
because when you leave home, you do not get relief.
Mr. Sparkman. I have no other questions.
The Chairman. From your experience, are you not of the opinion
3'ou never can stop migration in the United States?
Miss DE LA Pole. Oh, I am; definitely.
The Chairman. Whether one has any money, or does not have any
money ?
Miss DE LA Pole. That is absolutely correct.
The Chairman. Thank you very much. Are there any other
questions ?
Mr. Curtis. I have one more question, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Congressman Curtis.
Mr. Curtis. Have you been here today while the other witnesses
have testified?
Miss DE la Pole. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. There have been a number of witnesses who have told
of their experience, as well as some administrative witnesses who
have told of the difficulties within Illinois, and even within Cook
County as to the matter of residence.
]Miss DE LA Pole, Yes.
^fr. Curtis. It is true, is it not, that the ansAver to those legal dif-
ficulties can be reached within the State of Illinois? Is it not true
that your legislature can solve the major problem before you with
respect to that?
Miss DE LA Pole. I am not an Illinois person, but I would think
they could solve some of the problems.
Mr. Curtis. I thought you were from Chicago, Miss de la Pole.
Miss DE LA Pole. I have worked here. However, each State can
•only make a law, obviously, for itself that will apply within its own
boundaries.
Mr. Curtis. That is true.
Miss DE LA Pole. So no matter how good a law one State makes,
it is at the mercy of the legislation of all the other States.
Mr. Curtis. That is true.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 941
]\Iiss DE LA Pole. Your ability to move across State lines is the
real crnx of the difficulty, is it not ?
Mr. Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. Have you visited any of these mig-rant camps which
you visited back in the relief days, since the Farm Security Ad-
ministration has taken over the providing of these camps?
]Miss DE LA Pole. I visited almost all of the transient camps in
the country, I think, during the transient program. I do not believe
there Avere any I missed. I have not visited any of the Farm Se-
curity Administration camps in California, although I have been
very much interested in them, and have had very long first-hand
reports. Nor have I visited camps in Texas, although people who
have seen them are very enthusiastic about what they have been
doing to facilitate the movement of people to jobs.
Mr. Parsons. Of course, that is not going to cure the migrant
problem.
Miss DE LA Pole. No.
Mr. Parsons. As some have stated, we do not want to carry it
entirely, but it is doing a great deal to the sanitary conditions and
for the comfort of the people, in providing those things. If more of
that ty])e of work assistance had been granted earlier, we might have
saved a lot of those who have gone on the road, and kept them in
their former abode. That is all.
The Chair^nean. The real problem is simply this, the problem with
which the committee is concerned : How far can the State of Illinois
go financially in taking care of the destitute nonresident citizens?
There comes a time when they cannot take care of their own, is that
not true '.
Miss DE i.A Pole. That is true.
Tlie Chairman. In other words, no one can tell. You may have
100,000 come in here in the next year.
Miss DE la Pole. Yes.
The Chairman. That is the great problem. That is why your paper
which has been submitted here is very useful to us. We thank you very
much for it, Miss de la Pole.
(Whereupon Miss de la Pole was excused.)
TESTIMONY OF JOEL D. HUNTER, GENERAL SUPERINTENDENT,
UNITED CHARITIES OF CHICAGO
The Chairman. The next witness will be Mr. Joel D. Hunter, gen-
eral superintendent, United Charities of Chicago, Congressman Cur-
tis will interrogate you, Mr. Hunter.
Mr. Curtis. Will you state your full name and your occupation for
the benefit of the record, Mr. Hunter?
Mr. Hunter. Joel D. Hunter, general superintendent. United Chari-
ties of Chicago.
Mr. Curtis. You have submitted a written statement which will be
made ]jart of our record.
Mr. Hunter. Yes.
(The statement referred to is as follows :)
g42 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Statement by Joel D. Hunter, General Superintendent, United Chabities
OF Chicago
THE effect of THE AMENDMENTS TO THE ILLINOIS PAUPER LAW ON THE ADMINISTR.VTION
OF RELIEF .TO MIGRANTS
I have always thought of migratory workers as falling into two large groups.
First, tlie people who go from place to place following employment, such as the
individuals who go from one harvest field to another.
The second group is made up of the individuals and families who wish to make
a permanent change in their residence hecause of changes in the economic condi-
tions of the community in which they have lived. These people come from the
dust howls, drought areas, villages near a mine which has heen closed, or from
communities in which there is a long history of unemployment and no prospect of
improvement.
The Family Service Bureau of the United Charities has had nothing to do with
the first group of the migratory workers. We have always had contact with
some families who belong to the second group. This was never a large number
of families until November 1, 1939, when the amendments to the pauper law relating
to residence went into effect. Up to that time, the policy of the Family Service
Bureau was always to handle each case on an individual basis.
We did three different things : First, if the family had legal residence in some
other State or community and agreed to return to that conmmnity and it seemed
best because of greater opportunities for employment and otiier facts to arrange
for such return, we sent such families to their place of previous residence. In the
second place, when there seemed to be a much better opportunity in Chicago
than in the place of previous residence, we did everything possible in relief and
service to help the family to become adjusted and self-supporting in this community.
In the third place, there were occasional families in our judgment, who should
return to their place of previous residence but did not agree to this return without
any valid reason. To these few, we did refuse material relief.
Since November 1, 1939. the situation has been nuich different. On that date
amendments to sections 16 and 17 of tlie Illinois pauper law went into effect. The
following is a copy of these amendments :
[House Itill No. 272, 61st general assembly, 1939]
An Act to amend sections 16 and 17 of an Act to revise the law in i-elation to
paupers, approved March 2.3, 1874, as amended, and to add section 16a thereto.
Be it enacted lnj the people of the State of Illinois, represented in the general
asseinhlii:
Section 1. Sections 16 and 17 of an act to revise tlie law in relation to paupers
approved March 23, 1874, as amended, are amended, and section 16a is added
thereto, the amended and added sections to read as follows :
Sec. 16. No city, villas e, incorporated town, county, or township required by
this Act to provide relief and support to residents therein sliall furnish such relief
or support to any person who did not reside therein for a pei'iod of tliree years
immediately preceding his application for relief and support. If. however, any
person did, for said three-year period, reside in some other city, village, or incor-
porated town in this State charged with the relief and support of poor and indi-
gent persons or some other county or town in this State, it shall be the duty of the
overseer of the poor of the numicipality, county, or town, as the case may be, to
send written notice, by mail or otherwise, to the overseer of the poor of such other
city, village, or incorporated town in wliich .such pauper so resided, or, in counties
not under township organization, to the county clerk of the county in which the
pauper so resided, or if he then resided in a town supporting its own poor, to the
overseer of the poor of such town, requesting the proper authorities of such city,
village, or incorporated town, county, or town, as the case may be, to remove said
pauper forthwith, and to pay the expenses accrued or to accrue in taking care of
the .same; and such city, village, or incorporated town, county, or town, as the
case may be, where sucli pauper resided, shall pay to the city, village, incorporated
town, county, or town, in the event it takes care of such pauper, all reasonable
INTERSTATE MIGKATION 943
charges fur the same, and such amount may be recovered by such city, viUage, or
incorporated town, county, or town, as the case may be, in any court of competent
jurisdiction. . , . ■ .
.Sec. 16a. Any city, village, incorporated town, county, or township which is
charged with the duty of relieving and supporting all poor and indi.-ent persons
lawfully resident therein may, in lieu thereof, use funds available for such relief
and .^upijort to pay the expense of transporting any such i)erson to any other
State in which he last resided prior to his entering the State of Illinois.
Sec. 17. The term "residence," for the purpose of this Act, shall be taken and
considered to mean the city, village, incorporated town, county, or town charged
with the duty of furnishing pauper relief, in which a person has made his perma-
nent home f()r a continuous period of three years, preceding his becoming charge-
able as a pauper.
Hugh W. Cross,
8pealei\ House of Representatives.
John Stelle,
Presidoit of the Senate. .
This bill having been presented to the Governor on July 13, 1939, after the ad-
journment of the General Assembly and he having failed to file it in my office,
with his objections, within 10 days (Sundays excepted) after such date, it has
thereby become a law.
Witness my hand this 26th day of July A. D. 1939.
EDWAiiD J. Hughes, Sceretanj of State.
When this law went into effect it made a good many people ineligible for public
relief. It was our opinion that the amendments were unreasonable and discrim-
inatory. We set about to do three things : First, to grant what aid and assistance
we could to the families who were suffering because of the above unreasonable
and discriminatory le islation. The attached table shows the number of people
who applied to the 11 dilferent district offices of the Family Service Bureau in
the months from November 1939 to June 1940, inclusive. It also shows various
facts related to this group. You will note that in June 1940, li.j.4 percent of the
relief cases were made up of this nonresident group.
As stated in the earlier part of this memorandum we usually deal with a very
small number of such cases — probably less than 1 percent. When such things
as the sufferings caused by the enforcement of the unjust residence requirements
of the recent amendments to the pauper law happen in the community, the United
Charities considers the situation and does one of two things : In the first place,
if the situation involves so many people and such a large expenditure of money
that it is absolutely beyond the reach of private philanthropy, we do not attempt
to give aid or service to any of the people involved. It would seem in such cases
like trying to put out a forest fire with a squirt gun. In the second place, if the
number of people involved and the amount of money necessary is smaller, and
it seems possible to change the situation in a reasonable amount of time, we give
what aid and service we can to the families who are suffering the most. This
is like helping a group of people across a river. We do not do it unless we feel
our boat is big enough to take care of a reasonable number of the people involved
and we can see the other side of the river. We followed this second policy in
regard to the nonresident families in economic distress because of the unreason-
ableness of the amendments to the Illinois Pauper Act. In the second place, we
set out to attempt to have the Illinois General Assembly called into a special
session so that they would give consideration to these amendments and repeal
them. It was impossible for me to see Governor Horner because of his illness,
but I did have conferences with Mr. Neil H. Jacoby, chairman of the Illinois
Emergency Relief Commission ; Leo Lyons, executive secretary of the Illinois
Emergency Relief Commission : and also with various other State officials who
were in touch with Governor Horner, namely, Samuel Nudelman. director of the
department of finance; Charles S. Schwarts. chairman of the State tax commis-
sion : and Alexander Wilson, administrative assistant to the Governor.
All of them stated that it was their opinion that the Governor would not call
a !<pecial session of the legislature earlier than the fall of 1940, and it was not
certain that he would do so then. In the third place, the constitutionality of the
law was carefully examined by the legal aid committee of the directors of the
United Charities "under the chairmanship of Edward D. McDougal, Jr. In some
of the meetings in which these amendments were being examined there were
representatives of the Legal Aid Bureau of the Jewish Charities, the Association
944
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
of Attorney.s General, the American Public Welfare As.sociation, and the Chicago
Relief Administration. It was felt that there was a reasonable chance that the
supreme court would declare the amendnients unconstitutional. Therefore, spe-
cial money was obtained to defray the costs of the proceedings, and Mr. Charles P.
Meegan was employed to file an original petition for mandamus before the
Supreme Court of Illinois. This petition was filed for five different relators
who were eligible for public relief on every other account except the residence
requirements set up in the amendments to the Pauper Act which we are disscuss-
ing. The Jewish Charities of Chicago have agi-eed to pay a proportionate share
of the costs of this suit. The petition is supported by afiidavits from the United
Charities, the Jewish Social Service Bureau, the Salvation Army, and the Catholic
Charity Bureau of the Archdiocese of Chicago.
The original petition was filed on June 4, 1940. There was an oral argument
on June 18, 1940. The supreme court has this matter under advisement, not yet
having rendered its decision. The petitioner's briefs and the reply brief have
been given to Mr. A. Kramer, representative of the house committee on migration.
It is hoped that the members of the house committee on migration will study the
arguments set forth therein. AVhile the briefs concern themselves in the main
with relators who have spent most of their lives in Illinois, some of the principles
and arguments in the briefs relate equally well to interstate migration.
As general superintendent of the United Charities, I do not assume to set forth
any answer to the extremely difficult problem of migration. I am merely setting
forth the unnecessary and unreasonable suffering which now exists in Illinois
because of unfair, unjust, and discriminating legislation passed by the Illinois
General Assembly. I believe that similar situations exist in other States. In
our dealings with these migratory families we become conscious of so many
things that are not done for them or with them. The first is that many of them
come to Chicago with very little information concerning work opp<irtunitieSf
partly because there is no way of their obtaining such information in the com-
munities from which they come. At the present time, so far as we know, there
is no public agency to give information to many people who want to move perma-
nently from areas in which it seems impossible to make a living — such as dust
bowls, drought areas, some coal fields, etc. Also, so far as we know, there is
no public agency prepared to give these families assistance and service in new
communities until they become through permanent employment, self-supporting
units in the new community. It .seems to me that neither of these are likely to
be done by any other government agency than the Federal (government.
The movement of workers from one part of this country to another is certainly
a matter of national concern. In order to have it done so that the migratory
people may go to places where there are wage-earning opportunities or the possi-
bility of self-support in agriculture, it seems to me that the Federal Government
must enter into the program in some manner. It is a satisfaction to have a
congressional committee giving careful consideration to the matter of migration,
a thing of national concern.
Family Service Bureau, United Cliahties of Chicago: Comparison of total a^JiJli-
cations, relief cases, and expenditures irith non-resident applications, relief
cases and relief expenditures, Nov. J. 1939, through June 30. 19JfO
Applications
Relief cases
Relief expenditures
Month
Total
Nonres-
ident
Percent
non-
resident
Total
Nonres-
ident 1
Percent
non-
resi-
dent
Total
Nonres-
ident
Percent
non-
resident
November 1939
December 1939
1, 547
1.632
1,768
1,814
1,736
l.e08
1,384
1,664
215
234
258
243
245
202
1.53
139
13.8
14.3
14.5
13.3
14.1
12.5
11.0
8.3
1,187
1,348
1,398
1,438
1,493
1,420
1,289
1,232
67
159
261
312
355
367
3.38
313
5.6
11.7
18.6
21.6
23.7
25.8
26.2
25.4
$39, 188
44, 123
44, 589
46, 424
49, 627
49. 146
43, 604
39,814
1,072
3, 534
7.957
8^0
Janusirv 1940
17.8
February 1940 - .
March 1940
8.770 ; 18.8
10.609 ! 21.3
April 1940
11.849 • 24.1
May 1940
June 1940 2 . ..
12. 696 29. 1
9. 841 : L'4. 7
13, 153
1,689
12.8
356, 515
66, 328 18. 6
■LBeainninc in December this figure includes nonresident relief cases carried over from the previous
month as well as new relief cases.
' Increase in total applications in June due to requests for summer outings.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 945-
TESTIMONY OF JOEL D. HUNTER— Resumed
Mr. Curtis. In this statement yon have discnssed this matter.
Mr. Hunter. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. We want to thank yon for it. I have given some
attention to it, but there are a few questions I woukl like to ask.
My. Huntkr. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. You have beeu at our hearing all day today, have
^'OU
Mr. Hunter. I did not come in until after the mayor had testified.
I have been here since then.
Mr. Curtis. The idea you ]3resent in your paper is somewhat simi-
lar to wliat has previously been submitted by some of the witnesses
in reference to the difficulties you have encountered here in Illinois
under your new poor law, is that right ?
Mr. Hunter. There is no question about the size of the difficulty
encountered. I think more might have been done than has been
done.
Mr. Curtis. What do you mean by that ?
Mr. Hunter. Well, specifically, surplus foods have not been
granted to nonresident families. They have not been certified to the
Works Progress Administration. I believe in both of those instances
the Chicago relief administration could have, through cooperation
with the Federal Government, given some assistance to the present
nonresident group in Illinois.
Mr. Curtis. In other words, you feel that without any change of
the existing law, they could have handled it a bit differently^
Mr. Hunter. I think they could have done something — perhaps
not adequateh^ taken care of them — but could have done more with
the cooperation of Federal Government agencies.
Mr. Curtis. I do not believe, so far as the committee is concerned —
at least, I was not — that we were aware of this amended law that
you speak of, made last year. We were not aw^are of that until we
got here for the investigation. We do not want to draw any unfair-
conclusions against your legislature, but has any attempt been macle-
to modify this law in the light of how it has worked out?
attack on ILLINOIS POOR LAW
Mr. Hunter. If I might, I would like very briefly to repeat,.
Mr. Congressman, what we have done in the United Charities.
Mr, Curtis. We would like to have you.
Mr. Hltnter. I think this amended law is a vicious law. We set
out to do several different things. First, with what funds we were
able to obtain, we endeavored to grant aid and assistance to people
who are ineligible for public relief because of the new^ law.
We also made what efforts we could to have the law amended.
Our board of directors asked me to do what I could to have a special
session of the legislature called to consider changing these amend-
ments. I could not reach Governor Horner, but I conferred with
Mr. Jacob}^ chairman of the Illinois Emergency Relief Commis-
sion; Mr. Lyons, executive secretary of the Illinois Emei'gency Re-
lief Commission; Mr. Samuel Xudelman, Mr. Charles S. Schwartz^
946 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
and Mr. Alexander Wilson, various executives in tlie State depart-
ments. I do not know with how much authority they speak for
the Governor, but they said there would be very little likelihood of
having a special session of the legislature until some time in the fall
of 1940, if tlien.
Our board of directors then authorized our attacking the law in the
Supreme Court. The lawyers felt there was a 50-50 chance it was
unconstitutional. There is no question about it being unjust, unfair,
and very discriminatory. We selected certain cases, and in the names
of five different families we filed a mandamus action. It was a friendly
suit filed against Mr. Lyons, who is a friendly party to the whole
proceeding, to have the law declared unconstitutional.
The Supreme Court has the matter under advisement now. The
hearing was held about the middle of June, and decision probably will
not be rendered until they meet in the October term. We had hoped
for a vacation decision, but it has not come.
WORK OF PRIVATE AGENCIES
Mr. Curtis. Now, with respect to your agency, what is ha})pening
is that persons who could not qualify under this law were shifted to
private agencies, were they not ?
Mr. Hunter. Well, as far as we could handle them.
Mr. Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Hunter. I will be glad to give you this statement. We have
actually given in relief aid, not administrative cost, $82,085.94 since
last October. In the first week we gave only $108. In the last week it
was $2,740. It is a growing thing, because these people, many of them,
remain for awhile. They are eligible for public relief on every other
count except nonresident law.
We now have under our care 796 families, which is all we can take
care of. I have had to issue bulletins to our offices saying that we can
take on no more nonresident cases after August 26, which is next
Monday.
Mr. Curtis. How many families?
Mr. Hunter. Seven hundred and ninety-six different families, for
whom we have spent $82,085.94 in relief.
Mr. Curtis. Seven hundred and ninety-six families ?
Mr. Hunter. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. When you say "nonresident," that means "nonresident"
as defined by your new law ?
Mr. Hunter. Nonresident, as defined by the amendments to the
Pauper Act.
Mr. Curtis. How many of them are actually interstate migrants?
Mr. Hunter. We have not conducted a study, except at about the
end of the first 2 months. Then we made a study, and there were
22 and a fraction percent that were interstate ; about 22 or 23 percent
were within Illinois and as near as we could tell, there were half that
had no legal settlement anywhere.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 947
Mr. Curtis. I was ver}' mucli intei'ested in this chart on the hist page
of your statement. Do you have any specific conchision or idea you'
Avould hke to point out to the committee in regard to that?
Mr. HuxTEK. Those are the detailed figures, Congressman. I woukl
like to say, in the first place, it is impossible for a private charity here,
or in any other city, to meet this situation. Ordinarily less than 1
percent of our cases are what we call nonresident cases. Now it is
more than 25 percent, and as I say, we are going to have to stop. We
believe it is part of our responsibility as a private organization which
is aware of community conditions, to try to have this vicious law
changed.
I would like to put in here, if I may, and give you as part of the
record a letter from the township supervisor in the village of Thorn-
ton, because of the boast that the townsliip supervisors have the re-
sponsibility for having this law passed by the legislature. This is a
photostatic copy of a letter of one township supervisor to another.
The Chairman. It will be received as part of the record,
(Letter of township supervisor of Thornton village. 111. :)
[Note. — Photostatic copy. Name of township supervisor, to whom letter was addressed,
ha.s been deleted]
Township of Thornton, October .5, 19S9.
Dear : Jt seem.s that .•^oine of the supervisors of Cook County are not
interested, after the work that was done in Springfield to save their jolis as over-
seers of the poor. You know that Mr. Cerniak, of Berwyn, and ;\Ir. Propper. of
Thornton townshi]), were appointed as a lesiislative committee to attend tlie last
session of the legislature and work against hills tliat were introduced which were
detrimental to tlie overseers of the poor and the taxpayers, and in favor of bills
wliich would benefit the taxpayers and retain the overseers of the poor in otHce.
Mr. Cermak did not render any services at Springfield, but Mr. Propper at-
tended tiie sessions from the time that they convened until the last day of the
session on June 3U. He attended the sessions nearly every week dtiring the five
and a half months that the legislature was in session and advanced all of liis
expenses during that tin^.e. He received some money on account from some of the
supervisors, but there is still due him at this time .$206.92, which should have been
paid immediately after .Inly 1.
►Some of you d<» n(»t realize what it meant to combat the bills that were intro-
duced at Springfield. There were S-'j different bills introduced in tlie senate and
house of representatives during the last session. Out of these bills there were
tliree senate bills, Nos. 41(i, 417, and 418, which were very detrimental to the
overseers of the poor. In these bills they tried to create county bureaus and
departments to administer relief. These bills were passed in the senate, but Mr.
Propper stopped them in the house, l)ecause the chairman of the judiciary com-
mittee was a friend of his and had these Itills held in the conunittee until the
legislattrre ad.lourned. Tlien house bill N(j. 272, which fixed the residence at 3
years in the State of Illinois before a person could ask for relief, was anotlier bill
that Mr. Propper worked for and had passed. H(juse bill No. 1022, authorizing
bonds to be issued to pay debts, was another bill that was passed at tlie last ses-
sion, and the two senate bills increasing appropriations for the poor relief for tlie
months of May and .Tune were also passed. Then all the rest of the bills out of
the 35 which were introduced that were detrimental in some foi-m t(j the town-
shiijs and overseers of the poor and taxpayers of the townships, were killed by
lobbyists from down-State and Mr. Propper.
You must remember that every suiiervisor throughout the State of Illinois got
the benefit of the legislation that was passed in favor of the overseers of the poor,
and therefore each one should be interested in seeing that the expense is paid for
that kind of W(jrk.
'-94g INTERSTATE MIGRATION
An assossment of $20 was made by tlif Cdok (bounty Supervisors Association
■ at their July meeting, and only a few have made this payment. We would like to
have you send your check for .$20 to the secretary of the organization, Mr. Otto
Ziehen. Harvey, Cook County, III., R. F. I). No. 1. If you have paiil $10 on account
of this $20 assessment, then of course you should only pay $10 at this time.
It is certainly not fair to Mr. Propper to carry this burden because he happens
to be the president of the Cook County organization. He has always been willing
to do his part for good legislation in favor of the supervisors as overseers of the
poor or otherwise, and we hope that you will make it your duty to see that these
■ checks are sent in immediately to Mr. Ziebell.
Thanking you in advance for doing so, we are,
Respectfully yours,
W. F. Proppek, President.
Otto Zifbell, Secretary.
Mr. Curtis. We are olad to have something along that line in the
record, because, although we did not come here to referee \Yhat issues
might arise in the Illinois Legislature, we are interested in the problem
generally. We are very glad for this contribution that you have made
here.
NECESSITY OF FEDERAL RELIEF AID
Mr. Hunter. I introduce that because it seems to me that the Federal
<j()verninent must enter into this situation. You know that the relief
responsibility in Illinois is in the towmships, of which there are 1,454.
I think anyone would realize that migratory relief could not be well
taken care of in 1,4^4 different units in any one State. I think it can
well be said that the Federal Government enters into the picture. Per-
haps I am getting a little ahead of your questions, but it seems to me
tliat is a prerequisite for the handling of migratory dependent families,
moving from one State to another.
How should the Federal Government come in? It seems to me —
tliis is only my individual opinion — that all of these people should be
handled in the same administrative group as those who are dependent
•on general relief. I believe that the best wa}' in which that could be
done would be to have the Federal Goveinment administer or else con-
trol through grants-in-aid, general relief in which migratory families
play a part. That is the only way in which you can get any unity of
procedure or adequacy of relief and service in the various States.
The townships, as you will see from that letter, are trying to protect
themselves, to stop spending money in the locality, which is a perfectly
understandable thing. They do not want people coming to Maywood,
or Cicero, or Berwyn, or Park Ridge. They are protecting their own
provincial area. It is perfectly understandable.
Mr. Curtis. Is the problem different in the rural area and the metro-
politan city with reference to attracting people in search of jobs?
Mr. Hunter. There are people that go from one area to another be-
cause of the relief situation. We all hear that they do. I personally
do not know of anyone who has done that, nor have our workers ever
told me that tliey had an absolute case where they knew someone had
<:'ome from village A to city B to get more relief. As all the other
people testified, it is for work.
Ml'. Curtis. I do not think you understood my question.
Mr. Hunter. Pardon me.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 949
Mr. Curtis. Is the problem essentially different in the rnral part of
your State and the city of Chica<i()^
Mr. Hunter. This law all'ects the whole State. A good many of the
iiii'al areas in the State of Illinois have disregarded it. The State of
Illinois does not have sufficient administrative control over the town-
sliip su})ervisors to tell them the}- must live in accordance with this
law. They have accounting control and certain financial control, but
not sufficient control to make them obey the law. Mr. Lyons is obeying
the law in Chicago because he is both secretary of the Chicago Emer-
gency Relief Commission and Chicago relief administrator.
]SIr. Curtis. I have nothing further.
The Chairman. jNIr. Hunter, 1 have heard men like you talk about
this problem, but it seems to me there are several elements in it, and
no one can answer.
Mr. Hunter. That is true.
The Chairman. In the first place, there is scarcely an American
family that wants to leave home, if they are getting along all right
at home.
Mr. Hunter. I think that is true.
The Chairman. But you have soil erosion. You have dust storms.
You have mechanization. Some of them simply cannot stay at
liome.
Mr. Hunter. I think that is correct.
The Chairman. I am inclined to agree with you that there
should be some classification into which these migrant destitute citi-
zens would fit. We have never given them a classificaticm in the
160 years since the Government was created. They are wandering
now, as we have said many times, Stateless and homeless. On the
other hand, you cannot make it too nice, because it may encourage
them, don't you see?
^Ir. Hunteb. Yes.
The Chairman. We are certainly very indebted to you for what
you have given us. I have read everything you have presented here.
Mr. Hunter. The brief ?
The Chairman. Yes. I think it is a fine contribution and we are
very much pleased. Your presentation will have a high place in our
report when we finally come to make it. The paper which you have
submitted has been received as part of the formal record and given
the appropriate exhibit number.
Thank you very much, Mr. Hunter.
Mr. Hunter. Thank you, sir.
(Wliereupon, Mr. Hunter was excused.)
TESTIMONY OF JEAN ZGORSKI
The Chairman. The next witness will be Jean Zgorski. Please
give your name to the reporter.
Mrs. Zgorski, Jean Zgorski.
The Chairman. Are you married?
Mrs. Zgorski. Yes.
The Chairman. Where were yon born?
950 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mrs. Zgorski. Here in Chicago.
Tlie Chairman. I do not think you would be insulted if I asked
you how old you are, would you ?
Mrs. Zgokski. Thirty-two.
The Chairman. AVhere were you married?
Mrs. Zgorski. Here in Chicago.
The Chairman. When?
Mrs. Zgorski. September 20. 1930.
Ihs Chairman. Have you any children?
Mrs. Zgcrski. Yes.
The Chairman. How many?
Mrs. Zgorski. Three.
T e Chairman. How old are they?
Mrs. Zgorski. Shirley is 9. Richard is 7i/o. Arlene is 414. All
ha^ e been born here.
The Chairman. Are they with you now?
Mrs. Zgorski. Yes.
The Chairman. Wliat is your husband's occupation?
]\Irs. Zgorki. He is a plasterer and painter.
The Chairman. Where is he now?
Mrs. Zgorski. He is down in JNIiami, Fla., we think.
The Chairman. I see.
Mrs. Zgorski. We have not been able to get in touch with him at
Miami Relief or Chicago Relief. We don't know where he is at
right now.
Tlie Chairman. Did he generally make good wages at his work?
•^-;Mrs, Zgorski. He has been the last 2 or 3 years. At least. I think
so.
The Chairman. Did he desert you?
Mrs. Zgorski. Yes. 41/2 years ago.
The Chairman. Have you seen him since?
Mrs. Zgorski. Yes. I have seen him. in January.
Tlie Chairman. It was in October 1935 when he deserted you?
Mrs. Zgorski. Yes.
The Chairman. Did he just pull up stakes?
Mrs. Zgorski. No. He wrote me from Miami and asked me to come
down there. I didn't want to go there, because he had left me. and I
was rraHy afraid to go back to him. I called up the relief and
asked them, should I go to him or stay here, and they told me on the
telephone I should go to him. That is what they told me.
The Chairman. I see.
Mrs. Zgorski. I didn't want to go. T went there. Hv" sent uie
tickets. I went there and stayed there from January until June. I
left Chicago January 24 and stayed there until June 14. Then I
came back here to Chicago. He gave me money to come back here,
and sent me back here, and told me he was going to take care of me
and supi:>ort the children.
He didn't do it. I was here from June 14 until July 17. T think.
I was here a little over a month. I tried to get a job. He didn't
send me any money like he said he would. About the only thing I
I
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 951
could see to do was to ojo to the relief, I went to the relief and asked
if I could G:et relief. They said no, because I had left the State.
They told me to go ahead and borrow money, and go ahead back
to Miami. They said they couldn't give me relief. My mother bor-
rowed money to send me back there. I was there from Friday of
that one week to the next week, Thursday.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mrs. Zgorski. They were looking for my husband there. They
couldn't find him.
The Chairman. I see.
Mrs. Zgorski. The judge there told me to go down to the city
charities in Miami. I went down there, and Mrs. Bain sent me back
here. She told me she absolutely couldn't give me my relief, because
I wasn't there long enough.
The Chairman. Did you have your children with you ?
]Mrs. Zgorski. Yes. She sent us all back here.
The Chairman. She sent you back here?
Mrs. Zgorski. Yes.
The Chairman. How did your husband get to Florida ?
Mrs. Zgorski. We don't know. I don't know yet until today why
he left here, and went there.
The Chairman. How did he get there?
Mrs. Zgorski. The way I think he went there, must have been in
the car.
The Chairman. Did he have a car?
Mrs. Zgorski. He had a car at that time.
The Chairman. How long has it been since you have heard from
him ?
^Irs. Zgorski. About 4 weeks now. That was in Miami. Not since
I have been here.
The Chairman. How are you living? Are you supporting your-
self?
Mrs. Zgorski. Here?
The Chairman. Yes.
]Mrs. Zgorski. I haA'e been on relief ever since Arlene was born, up
until January.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mrs. Zgorski. Then I Avent there.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mrs. Zgorski. I went there against my will, because I didn't want
to go there. I didn't want to go back to him. I wanted to get him
to take care of the children. They told me at relief I couldn't get
a divorce. I asked them for work, and they told me I couldn't do
any P. W. A. work. I am able to sew. I was able to go out and
do any type of selling, although I can't since Arlene was born. I got
a pain in my right leg, and I'm not able to do that kind of work so
much, but 1 can sew.
I asked relief to give me work several times, and they told me they
couldn't do it. The first reason they told me was. when Arlene was
about 6 months old, that she was too little. When she was about a
year and a half old. I asked again, and they told me I couldn't get
260370— 40— pt. 3 10
952 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
W. P. A. work. I told them there was other women there wlio had
three or four or five children that had W. P. A. jobs. They didn't say
aiiythino-. They told me I couldn't o-et a job. Arlene was ^Vo when
I asked a^ain. and they told me I couldn't jzet a W. P. A. job because
they were laying them off.
The Chairman. How long have you been altogether on reliefs
Mrs. Zgorski. How long have I been altogether on relief^
The Chairman. Yes.
Mrs. Zgorski. I have been on relief from when Arlene was born up
nntil January. She is 4:^2- She will be 5 in November.
The Chairman. And since January ?
Mrs. Zgorski. Since January I went down to ]Miami. and my hus-
band was supporting me.
The Chairman. He was supporting you down there?
Mrs. Zgorski. Yes. Then I came back here with the children.
The Chairman. You are on relief again ?
Mrs. Zgorski. No ; they won't give me relief.
The Chairman. They will not give you relief?
Mrs. Zgorski. No; they Avon't give me relief, because they told me
since Miami sent me here. Miami relief sent me back to Chicago, it
would be hard for me to get relief. They said I should go back to
Miami again. The Chicago relief here told me that they had written
to Miami and was waiting for an answer, and they would call me and
let me k)i<)w when I am su])posed to go down there.
The Chairman. Where are you living now ?
Mrs. Zgorski. The Salvation Army.
The Chairman. The Salvation Army?
Mrs. Zgorski. Yes; with the three children.
The Chairman. Do you know the two Lee girls?
]Mrs. Zgorski. Th.ey are in the same place I am.
The Chairman. In the same place you are ?
Mrs. Zgorski. Yes. They are downstairs and Ave are upstairs.
The Chairman. Do you work there?
Mrs. Zgorski. We helj) there.
The Chairman. The three children are there, too ?
Mrs. Zgorski. Yes. I have all the children with me.
The Chairman. What kind of work are you able to do?
Mrs. Zgorski. I am able to sell. I have done office work. I haven't
done any typing, but I have used a comptometer. I have done filing.
I haven't done typing or shorthand. I have done general ojffice work.
The Chairman. Are you willing to have your husband come back
to you here?
Mrs. Zgorski. I want him to support the children, but I couldn't
live with him. It is impossible. They told me to go down there
214 years ago. I wrote and asked for my husband's — the man he
worked for. I asked for his name. I wrote to the man he worked
for and asked if he had a steady job. He told me he didn't have a
steady job. I wrote and they told me he had a steady job, and
wanted me to come down there. They told me to go ahead.
I wanted them to find my husband, and make him support the
<'liiklren. I wan't asking for anything for myself. I was going to
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 953
go out and ^ret a job for myself. I wanted him to support the
diildreu. and he never did. I have been on relief the whole time.
The Chaikmax. How many people are there at the Salvation Army
Home where you are?
Mrs. ZooRSKi. I should say about 40.
The Chairman. About 40?
Mrs. Zgokski. Right now. You can't stay there all the time.
They just let you stay there until you find yourself either a job or
something, or get on relief. You can't stay there permanently. It
is just an emergency place.
The Chairman. What would you do if the Salvation Army had
not taken you in (
Mrs. Zgorski. I don't know what I would do.
The Chairman. Starve?
Mrs. Zgorski. I don't know. I don't know what was the matter,
why they didn't find my husband. I gave them the license number
of my husband's car, and from Sunday until Thursday they told me
they couldn't find my husband. He was right there in the city. I
couldn't understand why they didn't find him. Why did they send
me back here to Chicago i 1 wanted him to take care of the children,
and support the children. All I wanted to do was to make him sup-
port the children. Pie is making $35 a week. Why didn't they get
him and make him support the children ? I couldn't understand that.
They gave me money to buy tickets, and sent me to Chicago. They
told me they couldn't help me. They told me to come back here. I
told them when I got here, "'What am I going to do?" They said
down there they couldn't help me. and they gave me the tickets to
come up here.
Mr. Parsons. The Florida Relief Agency gave you your tickets to
come back?
Mrs. Zgorski. Yes. It is called the city charities.
Mr. Parsons. Yes.
Mrs. Zgorski. They told me to come back here. I says, "When I get
here, what then?" She told me to find something to do. Well, it
isn't as easy as that to go ahead and do it. You can't do it. You can't
just go ahead and get a job just by saj'ing "Go out and get a job." and
then get it. It isn't that easy.
The Chairman. Then, as I understand it, you are not entitled to
relief either in Florida or in Illinois ?
Mrs. Zgorski. No. When I got there, they told me I wasn't eligible
for relief there. They told me I wasn't entitled to relief here. So I
couldn't figure out where I was at. When I got here from Miami, they
told me to borrow the money to go back to Miami. I couldn't figure
that out, because I was })orn and raised here. The children have all
been born here. I couldn't figure it out. I still can't figure it out,
why they want me to go back there. When I was there not quite a
week, they sent me back here. AVhen I get back here, they want to send
nie back there.
The Chairman. Who told you to go and borrow the money?
Mrs. Zgorski. Relief told me to go out and borrow the money.
Mr. Curtis. Do you know where that is located?
954 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mrs. Zgokski. One hundred and eighty West Polk Street.
Mr. Curtis. Do yon know the name of the individual who advised
you to leave the State of Illinois?
Mrs. Zgorski. No. I don't know her name. She didn't tell me her
name, but I would know her if I saw her.
Mr. Curtis. Did she have any correspondence with Florida to find
out whether you could qualify for aid down there?
Mrs. Zgorski. No. She just told me to go and borrow the money. I
said, "Sister, I don't know how^ I can borrow the money. It isn't so
easy to go ahead and borrow the money."
Mr, Curtis. You do not know her name ?
Mrs. Zgorski. No. I do not know her name.
Mr. Curtis. Do you know whether she was employed by the Federal
Government or by the city of Chicago?
Mrs. Zgorski. She must have been employed by the Chicago relief.
She was there in the office. There is several women there talking to
you.
Mr. Curtis. Where in Chicago is this Salvation Army shelter?
Mrs. Zgorski. Twelve hundred and thirty West Adams.
Mr. Curtis. Your husband deserted you while you were in tlie State
of Illinois?
Mrs. Zgorski. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. You condoned that when you went to Florida ?
Mrs. Zgorski. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. You lived with him how long ?
Mrs. Zgorski. From January until June.
Mr. Curtis. Then he deserted you again?
Mrs. Zgorski. Yes. We didn't live together. I had my own room
and he had his own room.
Mr. Parsons. He fed you and the children?
Mrs. Zgorski. What is it?
Mr. Parsons. He fed you and the children?
Mrs. Zgorski. Not the way he was supposed to. He didn't give
me enough money to run the house.
Mr. Curtis. But in Florida they told you you could not compel
him to sujiport his children when he had work?
Mrs. Zgorski. They told me they couldn't compel him. I told
Mrs. Bain at the relief there — they couldn't find him. Tliey told
me they couldn't find him when I was in Miami. They had his
license "number, and I don't think they made any effVn-t to find him,
because I am sure ]Miami isn't a large city. I am most sure from
Sunday until Thursday they could have found him. They had his
description. I had a description of the car and everything. They
told me they couldn't find him.
Mr. Curtis. What work does he do down there?
Mrs. Zgorski. He is a plasterer and iniinter. He does both.
Mr. Curtis. Has he had steady work most of the time?
Mrs. Zgorski. When I was there he worked pretty steady.
Mr. Curtis. How much did he make?
Mrs. Zgcrski. I imagine he averaged $35 or $40 a week. Never
less than $30.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 955
The Chairman. A week?
Mrs. Zgorski. A week.
Mr. Curtis. It occurs to me, Mr. Chairman, that the desertion is
subject to the Fk)rida law only, and not the Illinois law, because it
^\as condoned. She went down there, and then they deported the
complaininor witness.
The Chairman. I will appoint 3'OU as a special committee to inves-
tigate that.
Mr. Curtis. Thank you.
Mr. Sparkman. How long had your husband been in Florida
before you Avent down there ^
Mrs. Zgorski. Five years, October 16.
Mr. Sparkman. I mean how long had he been there before you
went down there?
Mrs. Zgorski. About 4 years. A little over 4 years.
Mr. Sparkman. He had been there more than a year?
Mrs. Zgorski. A little over 4 years.
Mr. Sparkman. That is all.
Mr, Parsons. Do you have any relatives in Chicago at all?
Mrs. Zgorski, Yes. My mother is here.
Mr. Parsons. "What is your maiden name?
Mrs. Zgorski. Wigless.
Mr. Parsons. Your mother is still living?
]Mrs. Zgorski, Yes.
Mr. Parsons, Are there any other members of your family living?
Mrs. Zgorski. My sister is living with her, but I couldn't have a
place there. She put me out. In fact, when I was here in Chicago
the first time, before they sent me, she told me she couldn't support
me. I told lier if I could stay there until I got a job. I would thank
her. She told me she couldn't support me, and that I should get
out. My mother wants me to stay with her, but my sister don't.
Mr. Parsons. Who is providing for your mother ?
Mrs. Zgorski. My sister is. She is supporting my mother. My
mother isn't able to work.
Mr. Parsons. Is yoiw mother old enough for old-age assistance
in Illinois i
Mrs. Zgorski. Xo. She is 59.
Mr. Parsons. Your sister is supporting her?
ISIrs. .Zgorski. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. What does your sister do?
Mi-s. Zgorski. She is a telephone operator,
Mr. Parsons. Is she married ?
jNIrs. Zgorski. No,
Mr. Parsons, How much does she make per week ?
Mrs. Zgorski. She makes about $23 or $24 a week.
Uv. Parsons. That is all.
Mr. Ci-RTis. What is your husband's first name ?
Mrs. Zgorski. Alexander.
Mr. Sparkman. Mrs. Zgorski, let me make this suggestion: You
said you could not understand why the relief people here were telling
Q56 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
you to go to Florida. The settlement law in Florida is 1 year. Your
husband, having been down there for more than 1 year, had acquired
settlement in Florida. You being his legal wife, his residence be-
came your residence, and therefore your settlement is transferred to
Florida. Tliat is the reason they advised you to go.
:Mrs. Zgoeski. They told me*^in Chicago at the relief that as long
as his residence was there, naturally mine was there.
Mr. Sparkman. Yes.
Mrs. Zgorski. Because I had been married to him.
Mr. Sparkman. Yes.
Mrs. Zgorski. When I got down to Miami, they didn't see it that
way. They sent me back here. Why, I don't know. I can't figure
it out myself.
Mr. Sparkman. That simply illustrates the problem we run into-
in various places.
Mrs. Zgorski. Now they are debating between the two of them.
The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mrs. Zgorski. We appre-
ciate your having been here.
(Whereupon, Mrs. Zgorski was excused.)
TESTIMONY OF JOHN B. BENNETT
The Chairman. The next witness will be Mr. John B. Bennett.
Congressman Sparkman will interrogate you, Mr. Bennett.
Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Bennett, give your name, where you live, and
your age to the reporter.
Mr. Bennett. John B. Bennett, 5256 East Grant, Chicago.
Mr. Sparkman. What is your age?
Mr. Bennett. Fifty-two.
Mr. Sparkman. Where is your home? I mean, where were you
born ?
Mr. Bennett. I was born in Boulder, Colo.
Mr. Sparkman. How long have you been in Chicago?
Mr. Bennett. Since along the latter part of January.
Mr. Sparkman. January of this year?
Mr. Bennett. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Where did you come from?
Mr. Bennett. AVell, I came from, you might say. Oklahoma, here.
Mr. Sparkman. How long had you lived in Oklahoma?
Mr. Bennett. I had been living there not so very long. My situa-
tion is probably a little different from the ordinary ones you might
have had.
Mr. Sparkman. That is what we are trying to get.
Mr. Bennett. I see. I am a salesman.
Mr. Sparkman. Talk louder, please.
Mr. Bennett. I have not been employed by anyone in the last 2
years outside of selling products. I sell on a commission basis.
Mr. Sparkman. Have you always been a salesman?
Mr. Bennett. Practically all my life.
Mr. Sparkman. Were you ever in any business of your own?
Mr. Bennett. Yes.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 957
Mr. Sparkman. AVhat kind?
]Mr. Bennett. The manufacturing business; the specialty nianufac-
tui'ing business in Los xVngeles.
Mr. Sparkman. When was that?
]\Ir. Bennett. Up until 1025.
Mr. Sparkman. Up until 1925?
Mr. Benneti\ Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Then you went on the road as a salesman ?
INIr. Bennett. Yes.
Mr. SparKxAian. Selling what?
Mr. Bennett. I have sold a great many different things.
Mr. Sparkinian. Keep your voice up, please, so we can all hear you.
Mr. Bennett. It would be pretty hard for me to enumerate all that
I iiave sold.
]Mr. Sparkman. Just different things?
Mr. Bennett. Different things.
Mr. Sparkman. Are you married?
Mr. Bennett. I am married; j^es.
Mr. Sparkman. Where did you marry?
Mr. BiNNETT. I married in Oklahoma.
Mr. Sparkman. Was your wife a resident of Oklahoma?
INIr. Bennett. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Is she in Chicago with you?
Mr. Bennett. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Have you any children?
Mr. BENNiyrr. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. How many?
Mr. Bennett. Well, I have three stepchildren and one of our own.
Mr. Sparkman. You mean your wife has three children by a previous
marriage ?
Mr. Bennett. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Then you and she have one child?
Mr. Bennett. She and I have one child.
Mr. Sparkman. How old is that child that was born to you and her?
Mr. Bennett. Three weeks old last Saturday.
Mr. Sparkman. Three weeks old last Saturday?
Mr. Bennett. That is correct.
Mr. Sparkman. That is your only child?
Mr. Bennett. That is our only child.
Mr. Sparkman. Do her children by the former marriage live with
you ?
Mr. Bennett. No.
Mr. Sparkman. Where are they?
Mr. Bennett. They are with her parents in Oklahoma.
Mr. Sparkman. Do you have any legal residence, and, if so, where?
Mr. Bennett. I have not. I don't suppose I would be considered as
having a legal residence for the simple reason that for the last 10 years
I have been traveling practically all over the United States, and I sup-
pose that I have not stayed in one place long enough to establish a legal
residence. You might say that the last legal residence I had was in
Los Angeles, or Pasadena, or, rather, Glendale.
g^g INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Sparkman. Have you looked for work since coming to Chicago?
Mr. Bennett. Yes, indeed, I have.
Mr. Sparkman. Have you found any?
Mr. Bennett. No.
Mr. Sparkman. Are you still looking for it?
Mr. Bennett. No ; I am not looking for any at all now.
Mr. Sparkman. Have you had any help from any organization?
Mr. Bennett. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Public or private ?
Mr. Bennett. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. What organization?
Mr. Bennett. The Salvation Army has helped me.
Mr. Sparkman. Are they helping you now ? 11,
Mr. Bennett. Well, I couldn't say whether they have— whether they
would be anv longer or not. My situation is simply this, and I wdl try
to explain it to you : When I came to Chicago, I came here endeavoring
to "-et some other lines of goods to add to the ones I was already selling.
I worked here in Chicago for probably two months and a half selling.
In the meantime, my wife's health got into a condition where she could
not travel. I coukrnot find anything here that you might consider to
be a desirable thing, what I might be looking for. Up until about three
mtmths and a half or so, or -f months ago, my wife's condition was such
that she could not travel.
Well I had sold, vou might say, what products I was selling,
about all that I could sell. In the meantime, I had tried several
other things, but I found the competition here in Chicago so sharp
and everyone so well represented that it was an impossibility for me
to do anything at all, practically speaking, with it. We tried to
survive as long as we could. Of course, I had to have my wife
taken care of. I either had to hire someone to do it or do it myself.
We got into pretty desperate circumstances. The only thing I
could do was to apply for relief until we were over the emergency
of her confinement, which was 3 weeks ago last Saturday.
Mr. Sparkman. You say you applied for relief. Had you had
relief from any
Mr. Bennett. From the Salvation Army.
Mr. Sparkman. You have not had any public relief ?
Mr. Bennett. No; I have never gotten any.
efforts to obtain work in CHICAGO
Mr. Sparkman. How extensively have you looked for work here
in Chicago? . ....•-, -,
Mr. Bennett. Well, I have gone out and interviewed individuals
in stores. I have had quite a lot of experience in the furniture
business and kindred lines to that.
Mr. Sparkman. What did you find to be the principal obstacle
to your getting work?
Mr. Bennett. AVell, the principal obstacle to my getting work,
and I think that is true of anyone else— there are really two ob-
stacles. One is the fact I am not a resident of Chicago. The next
is I am above the age limit.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 959
Mr. Sparkman, How old are you?
Mr. Bennett. Fifty-two.
Mr. Sparkman. Fifty-two?
Mr. Bennett. Yes; there have been several instances where I
have interviewed people who have had advertisements in the paper
foi- salesmen and kindred things of that kind. But as soon as they
would see I had a few gray hairs in my head and was past 35 or
40, I could not even obtain an interview\ Several of the employ-
ment managers had notified me they were prohibited by their firms
from employing anyone above 35, or possibly 40 years old. There
are a great many of the industries who are doing that too.
Mr. Sparkman. I agree with you, too many of them.
Mr. Bennett. Now, then, after I had exerted every effort I could
to find something, going here and there and the other place, to
department stores and places of that kind, as a last resort I went
to the employment agencies. I thought there might possibly be an
opportunity of getting something there from them in answer to their
advertisements.
Here is a sample of what I met : There was one advertisement in
a paper about Si/o months ago for a hardware salesman. I went
down and put my application in at the employment agency. He
asked me about my experience, and I told him my experience.
"Well," he says, "you come back tomoiTow morning at 9 o'clock."
I says, "Very well," I went back the next morning at 9 o'clock.
He said, "The man is not there yet, and I have not had an oppor-
tunity to talk with him. I called him up last night, and as soon as
he gets in, I will call him up. You come back in 30 minutes."
I said, "All right I will." After about 30 minutes I went down
and he said, "There is nothing doing." I said, "Just what do you
mean by that?'' "AVell," he says, "you are too old.'*
I said, "Would you mind asking that man, whoever he is" — of course,
you do not find out who you are being put in connection with through
the employment agency — "Would you mind asking that man if he
would let me have the courtesy of simply a personal interview? You
know," I said, "I am a perfectly physically able man. I know I am
mentally able. I know I am an efficient man, and probably if I could
have an interview with the man I could obtain myself a position."
"Well," he says, "I will tell you: Wait out here a little while and
we will call him up." I waited, I suppose, 15 or 20 minutes. Then
he motioned for me to come in. I came into his office and sat down,
and he says, "Now, we can't get you that job." I said, "Well, maybe
I could get it. I am only asking for an interview. I just want to
talk to that man." He says, "No; the firm prohibits him from em-
ploying anybody over 35 years old. You would simply be w^asting
your time to go out there."
That man, whoever he was, would not employ me. He would not
give me an opportunity to present myself to him. That was only
one of, I wnll say, a half a dozen instances of that kind. I do not
know whether all of them are that way or not, but I think the ma-
jority of them are.
ggO INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Spakkman. At least, yon have had enoiioh experience to realize
that that is a serions obstacle in getting employment?
Mr. Bennett. I have had enonoh experience to realize that is a
very serious obstacle in a person, we will say, over 40 years of age,
regardless of how efficient they might be and regardless of their physi-
cal condition or how well they are versed in their line of business. It
is practically an impossibility for you to obtain employment if you
are above that age limit.
]Mr. Sparkman. Thank you. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. You are too old to get a job? _
jNIr. Bennett. They say I am too old to get a job.
The Chairman. You are too young to get a pension?
Mr. Bennett. I am too young to get a pension.
The Chairman. What is going to become of thousands and thou-
sands just like you?
Mr. Bennett, That is just what the question is. There is a ques-
tion that must be solved, and it must be solved in an intelligent way,
so that a person — if a person is mentally handicapped or physically
handicapped or something like that, there may be some excuse for it.
Regardless of how efficient you are, or regardless of how much experi-
ence you have had, it makes no difference what line you are asking
for work in ; if you are abo^^e that age, you can't get it.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Bennett. That is all there is about it.
The Chairman. I think you missed the bus when you did not get
that interview.
Mr. Bennett. Yes.
The Chairman. I think if you had gotten the interview you would
liave gotten the job all right.
Mr. Bennett. Perhaps so. I am an efficient man. I know that. I
know the business.
The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Bennett. You may
be excused.
(Whereupon Mr. Bennett was excused.)
Tlie Chairman. Off the record.
(Discussion outside the record.)
The Chairman. The committee will stand adjourned until 10 o'clock
tomorrow morning.
(Whereupon, at 4:05 p. m., a recess was taken until 10 a. m. to-
morrow, Tuesday, August 20, 1940.)
INTEKSTATE MIGRATION
TUESDAY, AUGUST 20, 1940
Ht)USE OF Kepkesextatives,
Select (.'ommittee to IN^-ESTIGATE the
Interstate Migration of Destitute Citizens,
Chicago, III.
The committee met at 10 a. m. in tlie Federal Court Building,
Chicago, 111., Hon. John H. Tolan (chairman) presiding:
Present: Prepresentatives .lolm H. Tolan (chairman), Claude V.
Parsons. John J. Sparkman, Carl T. Curtis, and Frank C. Osmers, Jr.
Also present : Dr. Robert K. Lamb, chief investigator ; James S.
Owens, chief field investigator; A. Kramer, field investigator; John
W. Abbott, field investigator; Ariel E. V. Dunn, field investigator;
Joseph N. Dotson, field investigator; Robert H. Eagan, field secretary.
Mr. Parsons. The committee will please come to order. The first
witness this morning will be Mr. Hayden.
TESTIMONY OF SPUEGEON HAYDEN
Mr. Parsons. Mr. Hayden, Congressman Curtis will interrogate
you.
Mr. Curtis. ]Mr. Hayden, give your full name to the reporter,
please.
Mr. Hayden. Spurgeon Hayden.
Mr. Curtis. How old are you?
Mr. Hayden. Forty-three.
Mr. Curtis. Are you married?
Mr. Hayden. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. How old is your wife ?
Mr. Hayden. About 39.
Mr. Curtis. Do you have any children ?
Mr. Hayden. Seven.
Mr. Curtis. How old is the oldest one ?
Mr. Hayden. She will be 18 December 17.
Mr. Curtis. How old is the youngest one ?
Mr. Hayden. Thirteen months old.
Mr. Curtis. Wliere were you born ?
Mr. Hayden. Mississippi.
Mr. Curtis. AVas Mrs. Hayden born there, too ?
Mr. Hayden. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. How much schooling have vou had ?
961
962 ixterstatp: migration
Mr. Hayden. I ain't had much.
Mr. Curtis. Have you had some?
Mr. Hayden, Yes ; I have had some.
Mr. Curtis. Mrs. Hayden has had some schoolhig?
Mr. Hayden. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. You went a few years to grade school ?
Mr. Hayden. Yes; public school, a country school.
Mr. Curtis. Where was that scliool ?
Mr. Hayden. That was in Mississippi, in Carroll County,
Mr. Curtis. Did you spend all of your time in Mississippi until
you came to Chicago?
Mr. Hayden. Yes ; all the time.
Mr. Curtis. When did you come to Chicago?
Mr. Hayden. December 7, 1939.
Mr. Curtis. In other words, j'ou have been htre about 6 months?
Mr. Hayden. Yes.
Mr, Curtis. What did you do for a living in ISIississippi ?
Mr. Hayden. Well, I farmed, and day-worked some. I worked in
the saw mill, corn press, and so forth.
Mr. Curtis. In the saw mill ?
Mr. Hayden. Yes; I dug ditches, worked in the saw mill, and I
farmed some.
Mr, Curtis, When you say, •'•farmed some," what do yf)U mean?
Were you a sharecropper ?
Mr. Hayden. Yes; a sharecropper,
Mr, Curtis. You did not own any land ^
Mr. Hayden. No, sir.
Mr, Curtis, How man}- acres did you handle when 3'ou were a share-
cropper ?
Mr, Hayden, Well, we would have from 12 to 14 or 15 acres in cot-
ton, something like that. We would have 5 or 6 acres in corn, or some-
thing like that.
Mr, Curtis. Did the landlord permit you to have space for a garden ?
Mr, Hayden, Yes; he gave me a garden.
Mr. Curtis. Did you have some chickens ?
Mr. Hayden. Yes ; I had some chickens.
Mr. Curtis. Did you have any milk cows or hogs?
Mr, Hayden, I had a milk cow and hogs,
Mr, Curtis. How did 3'ou get along at that?
Mr. Hayden. I didn't do so well.
Mr. Curtis. Were you and your family able to get enough food that
way ?
Mr. Hayden. Well, not exactly. Sometimes we would and some-
times we wouldn't.
Mr. Curtis. You could not make any money to \m\ anything else ?
Mr. Hayden. No. Money was scarce, I would make a crop, and
sometimes collect from $25 to $30,
Mr. Curtis. How much Avould you get working around in the saw-
mills, and so forth?
Mr. Hayden. Well, they paid at that time — they paid a dollar a
day, or $1.25 down there. For cotton picking you would get about
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 9Q3
50 cents a limidred. For ])lowin<i: all day loiif;. you "would get 60 cents
a day, from sunup to sundown,
Mr. Curtis. Were the children old enou<ih to oet any work in Mis-
sissippi ?
Mr. Hayden. They would hoe a little.
Mr. CuitTis. They helped you when you were farming?
^h\ Hayden. That is right. They would help when I was farming.
Mr. Curtis. They could not make any wages any other place ?
Mr. Hayden. No.
Mr. Curtis. How many of your children are here in Chicago?
Mr. Hayden. They are all in school but two.
Mr. Curtis. When you came into Chicago from IMississippi, did
you ha\e any trouble getting your children into school ?
Mr. Hayden. Well, no, sir. They got — they brought a certificate
from the other school with them.
Mr. Curtis. You had no difficulty about that?
Mr. Hayden. Xo.
Mr. Curtis. Well now, what have you done since you have been in
Chicago ?
Mr. Hayden. Well, I worked a little. I— well, I paint a little. I
have calcimined. I tear down paper, clean buildings, and all like
that.
]Mr. Curtis. Did you know someone who gave you that work ?
Mr. Hayden. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. You knew some of the other workmen there; is that
liow you got it?
Mr. Hay^den. Yes. I didn't know them until I came up here
though, I didn't know them before,
Mv. Curtis. During the year 1940, this year, have you had work
most of the time?
Mr. Hay'dex, No. I ain't got no regular job now.
Mr. Curtis. About how many days' w^ork do you suppose you would
have each month?
Mr. Hayden. I don't know, sir. I worked last month pretty regular,
I haven't done much this month.
Mr. Curtis. How about the winter months — January, February,
and Mai-ch? Did you have any work?
Mr. Hayden. No, sir. I didn't have no work.
]\Ir. Curtis. How did you live?
Mr. Hayden, Well, charity helped me some.
Mr. Curtis. One of these |)rivate charity organizations in Chicago?
Mr. Hayden. Yes; on Michner Street.
Mr. Curtis. Do you know the name of it ?
Mr. Hayden. It is a bureau.
Mr. Curtis, I believe they call it United Charities?
Mr, Hayden^, Yes,
Mr. Curtis. Is that it ?
Mr, Hayden, Yes.
Mr, Curtis. How much did they help you? Did they pay your
rent i
9g4 ixterstatp: migration
Mr. Hayden. They gave me $10 a week for — let's see now. That
was for about 2 months, or 2 months and a half; something like that.
It might have been 3 ; I don't know.
Mr. Curtis. Then yon got a little work?
Mr. Hayden. A little work ; yes.
Mr. Curtis. After yon got yonr first work, have they had to help
yon any since?
Mr. Hayden. Well, no. sir. They ain't helped me since — let's see^
January, February, March — it has been about March since they helped
me last.
Mr. Curtis. How nnich money did you have when you arrived in
Chicago ?
Mr. Hayden. I had when I got here, about $25 or $30.
Mr. Curtis. Did you come up in a car ? ^
Mr. Hayden. No. I came up on the train.
Mr. Curtis. You were able to buy your tickets and had $25 or $30
when you got here ?
Mr. Hayden. Yes; I was about 2 years or longer saving that up
10 get up here.
Mr. Curtis. You sold your chickens and pigs ?
Mr. Hayden. Yes; and one thing and another.
Mr. Curtis. Have you applied for any other relief here?
Mr. Hayden. I went down to the place on Harrison Street. They
said I hadn't been here long enough.
]\Ir. Curtis. That was for public relief?
Mr. Hayden. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. They told you you were not a resident of Chicago ?
Mr. Hayden. No.
Mr. Curtis. That you had not been here long enough ?
Mr. Hayden. No.
Mr. Curtis. You have not had any work this month of August?
Mr. Hayden. Yes. I had a little work, the same place, cleaning
Imildings.
Mr. Curtis. Have you any work now ?
INIr. Hayden. I Avorked yesterday until 12. The man told me he
might have some more tomorrow.
Mr. Curtis. How much do you make?
Mr. Hayden. He gave me $1.50.
Mv. Curtis. $1.50 for the morning?
Mr. Hayden. No; for the whole day.
]Mr. Curtis. For the whole day?
]\Ir. Hayden. For the whole day. That ain't enough, but I had
to do something to live, don't you know?
Mr. Curtis. Yes. How did it happen you decided to leave Mis-
sissippi ?
Mv. Hayden. I just got tired of that job we had. We didn't have
enough to live. We couldn't send the children to school.
Mr. Curtis. Why did you pick out Chicago?
Mr. Hayden. Well, I heard a whole lot of talk about Chicago.
Mr. Curtis. Did you have any friends here?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 955
Mr. Hayd?:n. Xo. I didn't ha\"e no friends here, but my folks
had been here, and ^one back, and I talked to them.
]Mr. Ci'RTis. Yon talked to people who had been up to Chica^ro?
Mr. Hayden. I talked to people who had been up to Chicago.
Mr. CuKTis. They had ootten good wages?
Mr. Hayden. That is right.
Mr. CuRiis. Did you make any inquiry, or did you write any
letters up here to see if there was any employment available?
Mr. Hayden. No, sir. I didn't write none.
Mr. Curtis. Well, would you rather stay here in Chicago?
Mr. Hayden. Yes. I would rather stay here. I ain't done bad
here.
]Mr. Curtis. You can get along better here?
Mr. Hayden. Yes. A heap better. Of course, it is a little tight
now, because I ain't got no job. It is kind of tight. Times is kind
of tight, anyhow. It's a whole lot better than Mississippi.
Mr. Curtis. Going back to your farming in Mississippi, how many
cows did you have?
Mr. Hayden. Oh, I had two or three, or something like that, or
four.
Mr. Curtis. Two or three or four?
Mr. Hayden. Yes.
]\Ir. Curtis. You owned them?
Mr. Hayden. Yes. I owned them.
Mr. Curtis. You were able to get enough feed so that they \^ould
not dry up ?
Mr. Hayden. Yes. They would dry, but we would always stake
our cows down there in the pasture, stake them out with a chain
by the branches, and things.
Mr. Curtis. You could get plenty of feed for them ?
Mr. Hayden. Pretty good in the summertime, but in the wintertime
they didn't get so much feed, because the feed was all frosted, and the
frost killed everything.
Mr. Curtis. Did the landlord permit you to put up some feed ?
Mr. Hayden. Sometimes he did and sometimes he didn't.
Mr. Curtis. How many chickens would he let you keep ?
Mr. Hayden. We have had as high as 10 or 15 or 20 or 25 down there
in the yard.
Mr. Curtis. Is it easier to raise vegetables down there ?
Mr. Hayden. Yes. It is very easy to raise vegetables. You can
raise plenty of vegetables up and down them breaksides, and one thing
and another — cabbage and one thing and another.
Mr. Curtis. But you could not make any cash money ?
Mr. Hayden. Oh, no, sir. Cash money was scarce. When they pay
a man 60 cents a day from sunup to sundown, that ain't nuich nioney.
Mr. Curtis. You could not educate your children ?
Mr. Hayden. Xo. I couldn't go to school any. My dad would keep
me working. I didn't have a chance to go to school. '
Mr. Curtis. We are glad to have had you here as a Avitness. because
you have given us some information that is typical of a certain group
that are involved in this problem. Thank you.
966
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
That is all I have. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Hayden. I can ^o home noAv.oaivt I?
The Chairman. Are there any other questions^ [No response.]
You may be excused, Mr. Hayden.
(Whereupon Mr. Hayden was excused.)
TESTIMONY OF MARY JONES
The Chairman. The next witness will be Mrs. Mary Jones. Con-
gressman Parsons will examine you, Mrs. Jones.
Mr. Parsons. Will you state your name for the record, please, Mrs.
Jones ?
Mrs. Jones. Mary Jones.
Mr. Parsons. Where were you born ?
Mrs. Jones. Right in Illinois.
Mr. Parsons. In Chicago ?
Mrs. Jones. In El Paso, 111.
Mr. Parsons. How old are you ?
Mrs. Jones. Twenty-six.
]Mr. Parsons. Are you married ?
Mrs. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. Your husband is living here in Chicago?
]Mrs. Jones. Yes ; he is.
Mr. Parsons. With you ?
Mrs. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. How long have you lived here ?
Mrs. Jones. I have lived here 23 years, the first 23 years of my
life.
Mr. Parsons. You came here when you were a girl ?
Mvi,. Jones. I was born there, and then I came to Chicago and lived
here for a long while. I went to school here. Then in 1937 my sister
and I went to the Hawaiian Islands. I was a stenographer, and so
was she. I had two brotliers out there. I was there about a year.
Mr. Parsons. They were there?
Mrs. Jones. Yes.
]Mr. Parsons. That is why you girls decided to go?
Mrs. Jc/Nes. Yes. There I found work and my sister found work
almost innneciiately. We stayed on. and then I was married about a
year later. My husband was working on a newspaper out there.
He originally was from San Francisco.
Mr. Parsons. Go ahead.
Mrs. Jones. Perhaps I should have. If I had. my status would
probably be better established. We were married about 3 months,
and the" doctors discovered I had tuberculosis. They put me in a
hospital. I was there 6 months in the first hospital, and then we
moved to the other island, or to another island, I should say, and I was
in that hospital for 6 months.
Mr. Parsons. Was that the big island of Hawaii or Hilo?
Mrs. Jones. Yes; the big island is where I was at first. First I
was in the general hospital and I had to have my appendix out. The
reason we left Hawaii is because it is not a very good place for tuber-
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 967
culosis. Most of the people out there, white people ayIio have tubercu-
losis have it develop iu tlieir bronchial tubes, and it does not respond
to treatment, that particular type, althou<>:h mine is in my luuijs and is
not advanced.
]\Ir. PARf^oxs. HoAV lono- did you continue to work after you were
married?
Mrs. Jones. Well. I was workin<»; just part-time — for 2 months. I
was workino- ])art of the time, and then I quit work. I was not
feelinof well. althouo:h I was not feelinji' very sick. The third doctoi'
was tlie one who discovered tuberculosis. The first two missed it.
Mr. Parsons. Who paid for the operation?
Mrs. JoxEs. I did.
Mr. Parsons. You did?
Mrs. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. Who paid for the hospitalization?
Mrs. Jones. For tlie hospital?
Mr. Parsons. Yes.
Mv9. Jones. Yes; I }>aicl for the operation; and for the hospitaliza-
tion, we began by paying for it, but after awhile our funds gave out
and we were not able to continue to pay for it. So then the State took
it over.
Mr. Parsons. In Hawaii?
Mrs. Jones. In Hawaii.
Mr. Parsons. Your husband was working all of that time?
Mrs. Jones. Yes. He was em])loyed.
Mr. Parsons. Did your husband remain in the islands?
Mrs. Jones. No. After my appendix was taken out, I had trouble
with my kidney. The doctor said I had tuberculosis of the kidney and
the only treatment for that is to remove the kidney. The doctor who
was going to do that was not a kidney doctor. He was a general
physician. It was out on the big island of Hawaii, and I was not
very eager to have it done out there by a physician whom I did not
have a great deal of confidence in.
We were not aware of the situation in California. My husband,
being a native of California, decided to go back. We had about $300
saved up. He went back to California. Pie was going to get estab-
lished back there and then I was coming on and have the kidney taken
out by a doctor.
Mr. Parsons. Was he able to get work in California ?
Mrs. Jones. He never got work in California. He did get 1 month's
work, but most of the time he was wandering up and down the coast
in California.
Mr. Parsons. Did you have an operation performed then in Cali-
fornia ?
Mrs. Jones. The kidney turned out to be negative. We decided not
to take it out, and decided there was not tuberculosis after all. But
riglit tlien they collai)sed the otlier lung. They found a hole in it,
and they collapsed it. Then I had to remain in Hawaii. I was not
able to travel, so I had to stay in Hawaii until I was al)le to travel.
J\lr. Parsons. When did you come to California ?
Mrs. Jones. I came to California in December 1939. My husband
finally got enough money to bring me over, so I got to California,
2tj0:;7(» — 40 — pt. :^ U
gg§ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
At that time I was a 'i)ilateial,'' as they call it. That mean- I vras
<rettin<r pneumothorax refills in one Inng once a vreek and in tlie other
Inng twice a week. One king had been collapsed for approximately
a year. The other. 4 months. When they collapsed the second luno-,
I had tnrned negative, and it cleared n]).
When I got to California they wonld not give me air there at all. be-
cause I was not a resident of the State. You have to be a resident of
the State 3 years and of the city 1 year before you can get any assist-
ance of any kind. All I could do was to go to a private doctor who
wanted $25 a month plus the cost of X-rays. I did not happen to have
it. That was how we came to leave California, because I could not
afford treatment, and I really could not be without it.
Mv. Parsons. To what place did you go from California?
]\Irs. Jones. I went down to Peoria, 111. I had lived in Peoria. 111.,
and it just happened that I had some things with me — I had my silver-
ware and the radio, my ring, and a few things. We disposed of those
and took the bus back to Peoria.
My. Parsons. Why did you go to Peoria ?
Mrs. Jones. Well. I thought maybe my husband could get work at
the Caterpillar Tractor Co. Then, too.' I knew I niight be able to
get air in Peoria, or in Illinois, because of my residence here. My
mother had died in Peoria, and I thought I had enough contacts to
get air.
Anyhow there was not very much down in Peoria. There is not
much' unless 3'ou happen to be mechanical. We stayed down there.
He managed to sell some photographic coupons until hib. unemploy-
ment compensation got started. Then we came up to Chicago.
Mr. Parsons. Did you draw unemployment compensation t
]Mrs. Jones. We did.
Mr. Parsons. From his work in Hawaii?
Mrs. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. How nnich did be obtain on that ?
:\lrs. Jones. $166.
Mv. P.ARSONS. Over a period of 16 weeks?
Mrs. Jones. Fourteen.
INIr. Parsons. Fourteen weeks?
Mrs. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. When did you get into Chicago ?
Mvs. Jones. I think it must have been about January that we got
to Chicago. We have been here ever since.
Mr. P.ARSONS. Has he worked since that time (
Mrs. Jones. He has not really found anything in Chicago.
Mr. Parsons. Of course, you are not able to work ?
Mrs. Jones. No; I am not.
Mr. Parsons. Have you a]3plied for relief here?
Mrs. Jones. We are not eligible.
Mr. Parsons. AVhy not ?
Mrs. J(»NEs. Well, we were down at the relief station, down at
W. P. A. You have to be here 3 years before you are eligible for relief.
Mr. Parsons. You were away for almost 3 3-ears?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION QgQ
Mrs. Jokes. Yes. But tlien. of course. I take niv liu-ljand's resi-
dence.
Mr. Pars(^ns. Has any a<iX'ncv helped you. or is any agency helping
you now ?
Mrs. Jones. We are getting some assistance from the Salvation
Army.
Mr. Parso>;s. How much asistance is that?
Mrs. Jones. $21.35 every 15 days.
Mr. Parsons. Are you able to get any treatment for your condi-
tion ?
Mrs. Jones. Yes. That is fortunate : I am.
Mr. Parsons. Is that furnished by the Salvation Army?
Mrs. Jones. No. You see, ni Illinois, aii' is free. Anyone who has
anything wrong with their lungs can get air free.
Mr. Parsons. Do 3'ou think you are improving ?
Mrs. Jones. The doctors tell me I am.
Mr. Parsons. You look as though you are. You look as though
you could be improving.
Mrs. Jones. I am im])roving, but you camiot say definitely whether
you are going to recover or whether you are not. It is a question of
3 or 4 years.
Mr. Parsons. How much education did you have ?
Mrs. Jones. Two years of college.
Mr. Parsons. Two years of college?
Mrs. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. You are a high-school graduate, and have had 2
years of college ?
Mrs. Jones. Yes; Northwestern.
Mr. Parsons. Northwestern ?
Mrs. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. I assume you probably took a business course?
Mrs. JoNFs. Well, no.
Mr. Parsons. In high school or in college?
INIrs. Jones. No. I took a business course at a business school.
Mr. Parsons. I see.
Mrs. Jones. That is where I learned shorthand and typing.
Mr. Parsons. What are the plans of you and your husband now?
Mrs. Jones. Well, he is taking that national-defense ])rogram now.
He is now taking woodworking and cabinetmaking. We are hoping
that out of that will come something. I do think work opportunities
are picking up.
INfr. Parsons. He is going to school now ?
Mrs. Jones. He is going to night school 4 nights a week.
jNTr. Parsons. Is he trying to find a joli for the daytime?
Mrs. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. Has he ever reported to the State employment office?
Mrs. Jones. Yes, indeed.
Mr. Parsons. Has he ti-ied through any ])i-ivate employment office
to obtain employment ?
Mrs. Jones. He has liis name in at all of them.
970 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Pardons. He has been able to find nothinp- here in the months
you have been here ?
Mrs. Jones. Xo; he has not foiuid anythin<>-.
Mr. Parsons. I tliink that is all. Are there any other questions?
Mr. Si'ARKMAN. I have a question.
Mr. Parsons Con<2:ressnian Sparkman.
Mr. Spalkmax. What is the nature of your husbanfFs work?
]Mrs. Jones. He has been selling- advertising.
Mr. Sparkman. In the advertising department ?
Mrs. Jones. Yes.
]Mr. Sparkman. Did he have anv special training in that line?
Mrs. Jones. Xo. It was just — Hawaii is diffei-ent. It is much more,
simj)le than it is here ; it is not complicated.
Mr. Sparkman. How old is he?
Mrs, Jones. Twenty-five.
lack of training as cause or UXEaiPLOTMENT
Mr. Sparkman. Does he have any special training?
Mrs. Jones. He lacks special training in every line. That is his
difficulty.
Mr. Sparkman. Is he a high-school graduate ?
iVIrs. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. He is now going to night school in order to get
special training^
Mrs. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. That is all.
Mr. Parsons. Are there any other questions?
Mr. Curtis. Do I understand that neither of your parents are living?
Mrs. Jones. That is right.
Mr. Curtis. Their last home residence was at what place in Illinois?
Mrs. Jones. Peoria. My husband's relatives, of course, were native
Californians. His mother and father both lived there and his grand-
parents on both sides.
Mr. Curtis. They took the view that you were a Californian because
that was your husband's residence ?
Mrs. Jones. Xo; in California they took the view that we were not
anything at all. They took the view we were Hawaiians. They were
going to send us back to Hawaii, or they were talking about it. I do
not think there is any danger they would give us the trip. They sent
us down to the Bureau of Immigration, tjut they did not send us to
Hawaii.
Mr. Curtis. That is all,
Mr. Osmers. Would you say that the fact your husband did not
have any specific training along any line had contributed a great
•deal to your difficulties?
Mrs. Jones. I think that is the main thing. I think right now
that if he had had some specific training — I think if he had 6 weeks'
training, he would have a job.
Mr. Osmers. You feel there are employment opportunities here?
Mrs. Jones. For anyone who is capable of doing something.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 971
Mr. OsMERs. But the difficulty in your case is that your husbaiul
is not trained {'
Mrs. Jones. I had the same experience myself before starting out.
I had 2 years of college, and a good education. I was in the upper
bracket of my class, but I was not able to do shorthand and typing.
1 had the bununest jobs you could ever get, places like Montgomery
Ward, where you get up at 5 o'clock in the morning. Then I learned
shorthand in t> weeks, and I was always able to get a decent job.
Mr. OsMEKS. Because you were definitely trained^
^Irs. Jones. Yes. I think if my husband were able to do sheet-
metal work, which he could learn in 6 weeks, he could get a job.
Mr. OsMERs. In other words, your 4 years of high school and your
2 years at Xorthwestern did not mean anything wiien you went out
to get a job and earn your living?
INIrs. Jones. I think you could have a master's degree, and it would
not mean a thing.
Mr. OsMEKS. The reason I stress that point is that I have found,
as I have gone around the country, there is something wrong with
our educational system. The people we are putting out of our high
schools and colleges are not equipped to go out and make a living.
Mrs. Jones. I feel that way definitely.
INIr. OsMEKs. You agree with that ?
Mrs. Jones. Yes. If they would just teach them something —
anything.
Mr. OsMERS. Thank you very much.
Mr. Sparkman. One more question. What became of your sister?
Is she still in Hawaii?
Mrs. Jones. She is still in Hawaii,
Mr. Sparkman. She is getting along all right?
Mrs. Jones. She is well.
Mr. Sparkman. Not married?
Mrs. Jones. No. She is not married.
Mr. Sparkman. She is still doing stenographic work?
Mrs. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. Your case is similar to many others that we have
encountered in the course of these hearings. Thank you very much.
(W^hereupon Mrs. Mary Jones was excused.)
Mr. Parsons. The next witness will be Mr. Mendenhall.
TESTIMONY OF ARTHUR MENDENHALL
Mr. Parsons. Congi'essman Sparkman will interrogate you, Mr,
Mendenhall.
Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Mendenhall. will you give your full name to
the reporter, for the benefit of the record?
Mr. ^Mendenhall. xVrthur Mendenhall.
Mr. Sparkman. Where do you live: here?
Mr. Mendenhall. At 2944 South Michigan.
Mr. Sparkman. Is that a jirivate home, or what is it ?
Mr. Mendenhall. It is a C. Y. O. hotel.
972 INTEKSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Spakkman. A Catholic Youth Organization hotel?
Mr. Mendenhall. Yes. ■
Mr. Spai;kman. Where were you born?
Mr. Mendenhall. Eldorado. Kans.
Mr. Sparkman. What is your age?
Mr. Mendenhall. Twenty,
Mr. Spakkman. Have you any brothers and sisters?
Mr. Mendenhall. I have two brothers and a sister.
Mr. Spakkman. Where are they?
Mr. Mendenhall. My youngest brother and sister are in Lyons,
Kans.
Mr, Spakkman. Ls that where your mother lives?
Mr. Mendenhall. Yes,
Mr. Spakkman. Is your father living?
Mr. Mendenhall. Yes.
Mr. Spakkman. Your father and mother live at Lyons?
Mr. Mendenhall. I do not know where my father is.
Mr. Spakkman. The family is separated?
Mr. Mendenhall. Yes.
Mr. Spakkman. Your youngest brother and sister live with your
mother at Lyons, Kans. ?
Mr. Mendenhall. Yes,
Mr. Spakkman. Where is your other brother?
]SIr. Mendenhall. He is in Seattle, Wash.
Mr. Spakkman. How old is he?
Mr. Mendenhall. Eighteen,
Mr. Spakkman. What education did you have?
Mr. Mendenhall. A high-school education.
Mr. Spakkman. Did you finish high school?
Mr. Mendenhall. Yes.
Mr. Spakkman, Where?
Mr, Mendenhall. In 1939, at Alden, Kans.
Mr. Spakkman. Where did you go after you finished high school?
Mr. Mendenhall. To Estes Park, Colo.
Mr. Spakkman. What was the occasion for your going out there?
Mr, Mendenhall. I got a job for the summer out there.
Mr. Spakkman. At a Y. M. C. A. camp, or something like that?
Mr, Mendenhall. Yes.
Mr. Spakkman. How did you happen to get that job?
Mr. Mendenhall. Through a friend of mine at the University in
Wichita, Kans.
Mv. Spakkman. What hai)pened to you after that?
Mr. INIendenhall. I went back to Kansas from Colorado. I worked
in Wichita for about 2 months in a service station.
Mr. Spakkman. Had you had any plans to go to college?
]Mr. Mendenhall. Yes, sir,
Mr. Spakkman. You did not get to realize that ambition?
Mr. Mendenhall. No: I did not.
]Mr. Spakkman. That is, you have not so far?
]\fr. Mendenhall. No,
Mr. Spakkman. Well, what did you do after you left the service
station ?
INTERSTATE :MIGRATI0X 973
Mr. Mendenhall. I went back to Lyons, Kans.. which is near
Alden, the phice where I finished high school.
Mr. Sparkman. How long did you stay there?
Mr. Mendenhall. Almost 6 months.
Mr. Sparkman. Did you have work there?
Mr. Mendenhall. Yes; I ran a beer tavern.
Mr. Sparkman. That brought you up to the first part of this
year?
Mr. ]\Iendenhall. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Then where did you go?
Mr. Mendenhall. To some relatives of mine at Newport, Ind.
Mr. Sparkman. How long did you stay there ?
Mr. Mendenhall. Until about 4 months ago.
Mr. Sparkman. Did you come from there here ?
Mr. ^Iendenhall. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Did you have work there?
Mr. Mendenhall. No, sir.
Mr. Sparkman. Have you had any work in Chicago?
xMr. Mendenhall. I have been working at the C. Y. O. prac-
ticallv ever since I have been here, but day before yesterday I was
laid off.
Mr. Sparkman. Is that the Catholic Youth Organization?
Mr. Mendenhall. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. You have not just been staying there; you have
been working there?
Mr. INIendenhall. I was employed there.
Mr. Spark^ian. You were laid off day before yesterday?
Mr. Mendenhall. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Do you have anything in mind now?
Mr. Mendenhall. Well, I have a couple of leads.
Mr. Sparkman. You have what?
Mr. Mendenhall. I have a couple of leads for jobs, but I don't
know.
Mr. Sparkman. You have been looking for work?
Mr. Mendenhall. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Did you have any special training, Arthur?
Mr. Mendenhall. As a musician.
Mr. Sparkman. You are a musician?
Mr. Mendenhall. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. What instrument do you play?
Mr. Mendenhall. I play the piano. I also sing.
Mr. Sparkman. You also sing?
JNIr. Mendenhall. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. What have you been doing at the C. Y. O.?
Mr. Mendenhall. Head waiter in the kitchen.
Mr. Sparkman. Have you ever been on relief, or have you ever
applied for relief?
Mr. ^Mendenhall. No, sir.
Mr. Sparkman. So far you have been able to knock around and
take care of yourself?
Mr. ISIendenhall. Yes.
974 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
My. Sparkman, Does your mother need any help, or is she able
to support herself, she and the younger children ?
Mr. Mendenhall. She makes $6 a week in the laundry.
Mr. Sparkman. I suppose your youngest brother and sister are
still in school?
Mr. Mendenhall. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. They do not work?
Mr. Mendenhall. No.
Mr. Sparkman. Is your other brother working?
Mr. Mendenhall. The last time I heard from him he was work-
ino; in a bakery.
Mr. Sparkman. How long ago was that ?
Mr. Mendenhall. Nearly a month ago.
Mr, Sparkman. While you were working at the C. Y. O., did you
send money home?
yiv. Mendenhall. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. What did you make there ?
Mr. Mendenhall. $5 a week.
Mr. Sparkman. And your board?
Mr. ^Mendenhall. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. They kept j^ou there?
Mr. Mendenhall. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Out of that, you had your own spending money,
and you sent money home to help your mother and younger brother
and sister?
Mr. Mendenhall. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. I believe that is all.
Mr. OsMERS. Did you learn anything in school, in high school,
that has helped you since you have been out tr^'ing to earn your
own living?
Mr. Mendenhall. No.
Mr. OsMERs. I suppose your musical education was privately paid
for, your piano work?
Mr. Mendenhall. Yes.
Mr. Osmers. By the family?
Mr. Mendenhall. Yes.
Mr. Osmers. That was not anj'thing you got from school ?
Mr. Mendenhall. No.
^Ir. Osmers. How old are you now?
Mr. Mendenhall. Twenty.
Mr. Osmers. Is there any agency you know of in the city of Chi-
cago, either Federal or State or local, that would make available to
you training along a certain line that might assist you to get a
regular job?
Mr. Mendenhall. I do not know of an^- such agency,
]Mr. Osmers. I just wondered if you knew of any.
Mr. ^Mendenhall. No.
]Mr. Osmers. I know that the National Youth Administration has
a mechanic trainins; jirogram, for one thing. I wondered whetlier
you might be eligible for that.
]Mr. JMendenhall. I really do not know whether I am or not.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 975
Mr. OsMERS. That is all.
Mr. Curtis. In what part of Kansas is Lyons?
Mr. Mendenhall. The middle- western part.
Mr. Curtis. Near what other town, what other larger place?
Mr. Mexdenhall. About 25 miles from Hutchinson.
Mr. Curtis. How did it happen you lost your job over at the
c. y. o.?
Mr. Mexdenhall. They just did not need me any longer, that is
all. I was extra, you might say. They do not have any one where I
used to be.
Mr. Curtis. You feel your chances of taking care of yourself are
better going about the country this way. than remaining right in
Lyons '.
Mr. MExnExiiALL. I feel so. I didn't have a chance in Lyons.
Mr. Curtis. How big a town is it ?
Mr. Mexdexhall. It is about, I would say, 10,000.
Mr. Curtis. That is all.
Mr. Sparkmax. I want to ask another question or two. When you
were planning to go to college, what were you going to take?
Mr. Mexdexhale. A musical education, to further myself
musically.
Mr. Sparkmax. Have vou given any thought to enrollment in a
C. C, C. camp ?
Mr. Mexdexhall,. No.
]\Ir. Sparkmax. I believe under that plan they will give you some
spending money and send home as much as $25 a month for the support
of your dependents. Have you ever thought about applying for that ?
Mr. Mexdexhall. I did think about it ; yes. I tried to get in while
I was in Indiana. I tried twice, but both times something slipped up.
I failed.
Mr. Sparkmax. I believe there has been some considerable enroll-
ment in the last few months.
Mr. ]Mexdexhall. Yes.
Mr. Sparkmax. It might be a little easier to get in now.
Mr. Mex^dexhall. Yes.
Mr. Sparkmax. You are interested in music. Have you ever
thought of getting into the Army and into some part of the band?
]\Ir. Mexdexhall. I have thought of it, but I never did seriously
consider joining the xVrmy, or enlisting in the Army, because I don't
like that kind of life.
Mr. Sparkmax". Have you ever talked with the N. Y. A., the
National Youth Administration?
Mr. Mexdexhall. No; I have not.
Mr. Sparkmax. About the possibilities of that?
Mr. Mexdexhall. No. I have not talked with them.
Mr. Sparkmax. Do you have any mechanical turn at all ?
Mr. Mexdexhall. "^^'ell, my father is a mechanic, and I helped
him. I helped him for about 3 years and a half after school and at
different times like that. I have a rather mechanical turn.
Mr. Sparkmax. I noticed that only recently the navy yard in Wash-
ington, and I presume it is true in navy yards in other parts of tlie
976 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
country, are takiiio- in quite a number of young men as apprentices,
to teach them the trades. I believe the N. Y. A. is phmning to teach
trades to young men. It seems to me it might be well for you to think
about those things and investigate some of them. You might find
some real possibilities there. The State headquarters of the N. Y. A.
is in the Merchandise INIart here in Chicago. It might be well for you
to go up and make inquiry. They may be able to help you.
Mr. Mendenhall. Yes.
Mr. Sparkmax. How long have you been in Chicago?
My. jNIexdenhall. About 4 months.
Mr. Sparkmax. You came from Indiana here?
]Mr. Mendenhall. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. How long since you left Lyons, Kans. ?
Mr. Mendenhall. It has been nearly a year now.
]\Ir. Sparkman. Is tliat the first time you had ever been away
from liome?
Mr. INIendenhall. Yes: for any length of time like that.
Mr. Sparkman. The folks are still back in Kansas?
Mr. Mendenhall. My father — I don't know Avhere he is. He is
someAvhere in Illinois, but I don't know just where.
Mr, Sparkman. Is he migrating too?
Mr, ^Mendenhall. No. He works in the oil fields.
Mr. Sparkman. In the oil fields?
Mr. Mendenhall. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. He is probably down in southern Illinois.
Mr. Mendenhall. That is what I imagine.
Mr. OsMERS. Is he contributing to the support of the family?
Mr. Mendenhall. I believe he is, when he can. He is in poor
health. He was gassed in the war. He does not have any health left.
He works when he can.
Mr, Osmers, Does he receive an}^ veteran's compensation for that?
Mr. Mendenhall. He did, up until 12 years ago; 12 years ago
the}' quit sending compensation. He didn't need it at the time, though.
They stopped sending it.
Mr. Parsons. He probably received that under the disability-allow-
ance clause. It probably was not service connected.
Mr. Osmers. If would have to be service connected if he were gassed.
Mr, Parsons. That is probably true. Are there any other ques-
tions? [No response.] You are excused, Mr. Mendenhall. Thank
you very much.
(Whereupon Mr. Mendenhall was excused.)
TESTIMONY OF BEN DEMING, STATE SUPERVISOR, FIELD OFFICE
OPERATIONS, UNEMPLOYMENT COMPENSATION DIVISION. IN-
DIANAPOLIS, IND.
Mr. Parsons. JNIr, Deming. Congressman Osmei's will interrogate
you, Mr, Deming.
Mr. Osmers, Mr, Deming, I will ask you to give your full name and
address and j-our occupation, for the record.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 977
Mr. Deming. Ben Deniino;. State supervisor for field office opera-
tions. Indiana Unemployment Compensation Division.
(Statement submittedand made part of the record.)
STATI-MENT CoNtEK.MXG CEKTAI.N ASPiXTS OF THE MlGKATORY Aollit ULTLTRAL LABOR
PiiOP.LKM IX Indiana
(By Ben Deming, State snpervisoi-, field office operations. Unemiiloyment Com-
pens^ation Division. Indianapolis, Ind.)
The limitations of this report relative to migratory agricultural labor in
Indiana should be pointed out in the beginning. It is based upon the experience
of the public employment service during the last 7 years. The limitations of
this experience are' indicated by the fact that during 1939 local employment
offices lef erred and placed only 2,334 persons in agricultural employment as
compared with a lotal of 83,083 other persons who were referred and placed in
comnic'rcial, industrial, and service occupations with private employers. An
inventory of local olHce application tiles taken April 1 this year shows that there
were registered approximately 6,000 persons wh(jse last regular job had been in
agriculture as compared to the total of some l."JO,0:JO other persons whose last
regular job was in fields other than agriculture.
There are several reasons why the employment service has not played a more
active part in tills field :
1. Much of the farm produce in Indiana, such as corn and hogs, does not
create a demand for large numbers of workers for planting, harvesting or tend-
ing, as in the case of large agricultural crops in Western States, such as cotton
in Texas. This is due partially to the increased use of farm machinery in recent
years which has caused some displacement of labor and to the small size of
individual farms in Indiana compared to Western States. In the case of most
farm products, it is an exceptional farm in Indiana which normally requires the
services of more than one or two farm hands. These are usually employed on
a year-around basis, and are normally recruited in the vicinity of the farm.
Wages average about $20 a month with board and room, although in the more
pro.sperous farm areas wages sometimes reach .$30 to .$3.5 a month.
2. The local employment offices in Indiana are established in the 25 largest
cities and are not especially located strategically insofar as farm labor is
concerned.
3. In the case of certain special crops, notably tomatoes, the conditions of em-
ployment in many cases are such that the employment service has not felt justi-
fied in assuming responsibility for the referral of the workers.
Under the.se circumstances, the employment service is not in as good a position
as some other agencies in Indiana to report factual data concerning farm labor,
with one exception, to which this report will be largely restricted; that exception
has to do with the tomato crop. The harvesting and canning of this crop, how-
ever, probably involves the most .serious problem in Indiana so far as the inter-
state migration of destitute citizens is concerned.
TOMATO CROP IN INDIANA ^
There are normally under cultivation in Indiana each year approximately
100.000 acres in tomatoes. The average yield is about 5 tons of tomatoes per
acre. Their value is estimated at $10 per ton. which means that the total value
of this crop in Indiana in a normal year is approximately $"),000,{i00.
There are four primary classes of people who have a direct financial interest
in this crop. They are the growers, the canners, the laborers employed by both
the growers and the canners, and those manufacturers who supply the canners
with tin cans. The growers are largely financed by the canners, who in turn are
frequently largely financed by the tin-can manufacturers.
This is a highly competitive business and entails many hazards which create
serious financial risks. For example: A canner's profit depends upon his ability
1 Tlie data which follows is based upon a survoy made by the employment service in
1939, in -which State and local officer personnel contacted 22 leading canners, several hun-
dred gi-owers, numerous local putilic officials, Purdue University, and the Indiana State
Canners' Association.
gyg intf:rstate migration
to contract acreage, iiidnstrionsiu'ss and honesty of his growers, weather t'ondi-
tions, insects and phuit disease, availability of lalioi-. the efficiency of his plant
compared with his competitor's, and finally the market price of his product.
A major cost for both the grower and canner is labor and the strenuous compe-
tition gives both of them a powerful incentive to l<eep the cost of labor to a
minimum. Some of the canneries are now covered by the Federal wage-and-hour
law, which automatically establishes a minimum price for labor. No such a
minimum exists, however, for the tomato pickers employed by the growers, and
it is here that the most serious problems arise relative to labor migration, wages,
hours, and living conditions. In order to appreciate the problems, it is necessary
that certain facts concerning the nature of this work be understood.
HARVESTING TOMATOES
The harvesting of tomatoes is done by hand and requires the services of sever.nl
thousand tomato pickers in the early part of August until about October 1. Tomato
picking is undoubtedly extremely arduous physical labor, requiring constant
stooping and the carrying of heavy crates under a boiling hot sun. The pickers
are required to work from daybreak until dark in vines that are, in the early
morning, wet with dew and possibly rain that has fallen during the night.
The tomatoes are graded according to quality, and the workers are paid a
piece rate which varies according to the grade picked. The grades are as follows :
1. U. S. Gi-ade No. 1 : This consists of tomatoes which are firm, ripe, well colored,
well formed, free from molds and decay, and free from damage caused by growth
cracks, worm holes, catfaces, sunscalds, freezing, and other injury.
2. U. S. Grade No. 2 : This grade consists of tomatoes which do not meet the
requirements of the U. S. Grade No. 1 but are ripe and fairly well colored and free
from serious damage from any cause.
3. Culls : These are tomatoes which do not meet the requirements of the fore-
going grades.
On the average, 68 percent of the crop will be U. S. Grade No. 1 and will remain
that grade for about 6V2 days. Tomatoes which are wet from rain or dew appear
redder than when dry and are, consequently, misleading as to grade. The bruising
or breaking of tomatoes from careless picking, overfilling the baskets, or im-
proper loading of tomatoes in trucks will likewise affect the grading. Since the
assignment of grade is affected by these factors and since it is a subjective rating
in the end. the grading process offers an opportunity for disputes with the pickers.
Wages and living comJifions. — Tomato pickers are normally paid a piero rate
which varies from 2V-2 to 6 cents per basket. The basket holds, theoretically, a
slightly less quantity than a bushel, but in actual practice no standard basliet
is used by growers. They may use wooden boxes, bushel baskets, or hampers of
any kind. The range in piece rate varies between growers and also varies with the
grade of tomatoes picked. The amount of tomatoes that a v,'orker can pick varies
not only with his physical ability and energy, including his judgment of quality
or grade, but also with the condition of the field. Such factors as the fertility of
the field, the time that has elapsed since it was ])reviously picked, condition of the
vines, weather conditions, distance from the field to the loading platform, etc.. have
a direct bearing on his earnings. The statements of growers and workers con-
tacted vary widely, l>ut a reasonable estimate seems to be that an experienced,
pnergetic, able-bodied male worker would average approximately $1.50 to $2 50
in a 12- to 14-hour day, provided the condition of the field was favorable. Women
and children would normally earn a proportionately less amount.
It is reported that the growers, in some instances, do not have the money to
pay the pickers until the crop is completely harvested and they are paid by the
canners, although they sometimes arrange to get tlie necessary money advanced
by the canners. Some growers follow the practice of holding back one-half cent
on the basket and then paying the worker in full if he stays the entire tomato-
picking season. By and large, it can be said that the method of wage payment
is inconvenient and unsatisfactory so far as the worker is concerned.
Usually the tomato acreage is located some distance from rown so it is not
convenient for the workers to commute daily. As a result, many growers attempt
to provide living quarters by making available barns or other outlying buildings
or by merely permitting the workers to camp out in the open on their land. In
some communities public parks or land is made available to the workers for camp
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 979
sites. As a result, living conditions for these workers are usually very unsatis-
factory from the standpoint of sanitation and public health.
The' eating facilities are also unsatisfactory because of the withholding of
wages and the normally poverty-stricken condition of these people. They attempt
to spend only the barest minimum amount of cash for groceries. On the basis
of housing and food standards, it can be said that a vast majority of the workers
exist under definitely substandard conditions.
Because of these substandard working conditions and wages, the majority of
local residents refuse to accept this type of employment. For this reason, in the
localities that have large acreage, it is usually impossible to secure sufficient labor
even though hundreds of local people may be totally unemployed or receiving
public funds for their subsistence. As a result, large numbers of workers either
come into Indiana on their own initiative or are imported each year from sur-
rounding States. The largest group comes from southern Kentucky, and a lesser
number normally comes principally from Tennessee. Missouri. Illinois, and Ohio.
A few hundred Mexicans normally come into this State each year, both for the
tomato picking and for the sugar-beet harvesting, which takes place in the
northeastern part of the State. Many of these migrants travel in family groups
and, in such cases, wives and children normally seek employment along with the
head of the family. This is particularly characteristic of the Mexic;in labor and
is frequently true of the people from Kentucky. In addition to tinding employ-
ment as tomato pickers, many of these persons attempt to find other agricultural
employment or to work in canning factories. When the season is over, many of
them return to their original homes, but a significant residue usually remains.
There are no relialile statistics available in regard to this situation, but a
report made by the State planning board for Johnson County in 1935 probably
furnishes a typical example. This report notes that whereas Johnson County is
relatively a prosperous farming area, the relief population averages about 10
percent.' The report claims that this condition is due to the canning industry
and truck-crop raising, including tomatoes. It estimates that the influx of
migrat(try labor each year from Kentucky alone is approximately 1.000, and that
a certain number of these people remain and are normally unemployed through-
out the rest of the year. This influx of labor from Kentucky takes place regu-
larly, even though there are easily enough unemployed people in Indianapolis to
fill all these jobs, and Indianapolis is only 25 miles away. The report states that
at least one employer in Johnson County advertises each year in Kentucky news-
papers, which has been directly responsible for scores of persons from that State
coming to Johnson County. The following statements are quoted directly from
this report :
"Vegetable canning, the principal industry, is a seasonal occupation and there-
fore has created serious economic and social problems attendant upon seasonal
employment. Migration from Kentucky is responsible for a large part of the
relief population. Housing among relief clients, especially those originating in
Kentucky, is extremely bad and violates minimum standards of living, legal and
otherwise, although rural housing is generally above the average for the State.
'•Pay rolls are loaded with transient Kentuckians, while many employable
citizens of Indiana are on i^lief rolls because of lack of employment.
The public employment service in Indiana receives numerous requests each
year for tomato pickers and, because of the unsatisfactory circumstances sur-
rounding this type of employment, has found it necessary to formulate a special
referral policy so far as local offices are concerned. This policy is (Hitlined below,
and I believe it represents reasonable minimum standards :
1. Orders will not be filled unless: («) Prevailing rate is offere<l : (b) average
qualified workers can earn at least 30 cents per hour; (c) wages are paid in full
and at least semi-monthly (as required by State law for most employment) ;
(d) working conditions and housing, if required, meet reasonable standards;
(e) transportation is furnished, or extra compensation is paid to cover cost of
transportation on jobs requiring same.
2. Orders will not be cleared outside the locality unless : ( « » All conditions
set out under point 1 are satisfied; {h) no local qualified labor is available;
(c) transportation is furnished; (d) a minimum daily earning is guaranteed.
3. Information regarding jobs not complying with the above-mentioned minimum
standards will not be given to applicants, newspapers, or transient workers.
980 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
The full force of eniploymeut-service facilities will be exercised to fill the jobs
nieetiiifj the sp(>cifications set out in this policy.
The application of this policy lias made it necessary for local offices to reject
practically all orders receiA-ed for tomato pickers.
Possible remedies. — The foregoing description indicates certain unfortunate
labor conditions that prevail in the harvesting of tomatoes in Indiana. Modern
labor trends furnish a basis for the belief that eventually some remedy will be
found to alleviate this undesirable situation.
The history of employer-labor relationships and the experience of other States
where similar conditions have prevailed indicate that corrective action might be
taken along one or more of the following lines :
1. ACTION ON THE PAKT OF THE CANNEKS' ASSOCIATION
Because of the close financial relationships that exist between the canners and
growers, it would be possible for the former, through their association, to exert
considerable influence on working conditions relative to tomato picking. The
association faces a serious problem, however, in taking effective action along this
line, since any increase in the labor costs of its members might place them at a
serious disadvantage with their out-of-State competitors.
2. ACTION ON THE PART OF THK WORKEES THEMSELVES
Experience in other States indicates that an effort might be made to organize
the workers for the purpose of securing better wages and more favorable work-
ing conditions through collective action. In other parts of the country such
efforts have been strenuously resisted by the growers and frequently labor dis-
turbances, and even civil disorder, have resultetl. The number of migratory
workers and the temporary nature of the work has likewise handicapped the work
of labor organizers. Developments in other parts of the country, however,
indicate the possibility of such a movement.
3. ACTION ON THE PAKT OF THE STATE GOVERNMENT
Some States have attempted to c<»rrect similar situations through legislation
or executive decree. This has sometimes taken the form of erecting State barriers
which prevented the entraii,ce of jnigrants unable to establish their financial
lesponsibility. Conversely, through emigi'ant labor laws, some States have regu-
lated the recruitment of labor by out-of-State contractors. State minimum-wage
laws have likewise attempted to protect certain classes of workers by establishing
minimum-wage rates. In the case at hand, it might well be argued that any
legislation which required the payment of higher wages than those paid iu
adjoining States would place Indiana canners at a serious competitive dis-
advantage.
4. ACTION ON THE PART OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
The Federal wage-and-hour law illustrates a type of Federal action designed to
protect workers by establishing certain provisions in legard to wages and hours.
This legislation applies to a portion of the canning industry and eliminates the
competitive advantage that accrues from individual State legislation. While
certain administrative difficulties are appai-ent, some persons have urged that the
provisions of the law be extended to agricultural workers.
There are doubtless other measures that could be applied to this situation.
The experience in other States both as regards agricultural workers and those
whose employment has created similar labor problems appears to indicate, how-
ever, that a solution of the problem in Indiana might be expected to follow one
of the lines described above.
TESTIMONY OF BEN DEMING— Resumed
Mr. OsMERS. ]Mr. Deming, you have submitted a statement which
we have put into the record, and we are going to base our questions
somewhat on that. Will you tell the committee something in refer-
ence to the tomato crop in Indiana?
Mr. Dp:ming. That is one of our problems there in Indiana, Mr.
Congressman. Through the southeast and on up through the east
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 981
central and northeastern sections of Indiana, a rather hirge tomato
crop is oi-own every year.
]Mr. OsMERS. How many acres of tomatoes are there '.
Mr. Deming. I am sorry. I cannot remember the exact figure
offhand.
Mr. OsMERS. I have a copy of your statement here.
Mr. Deming. Yes.
Mr. Os.MERS. I believe you show in your statement there are 100,000
acres.
Mr. Deming. Yes. There are normally some 100,000 acres planted
in tomatoes, with a value of about $5,000,000, or something like that.
FINANCIAL STRrCTURE OF TOMATO PRODUCTION IN INDIANA
^Ir. OsMERs. Would you tell us just what groups are interested in
the production of tomatoes in Indiana {^
Mr. Deming. The actual growers themselves, the canners, and the
sellers of tomato cans; and, of course, also a certain group of labor-
ing people who earn their livelihood in raising tlie crop, harvesting
it, and so forth.
Mr. OsMFRS. What is the financial structure of the tomato busi-
ness in Indiana I
^Ir. Deming. The growers are pretty largely financed by the can-
ners. Tlie canners are in turn to quite an extent financed by the
manufacturers of tin cans.
Mr. OsMFRs. I just wanted to get that straight.
Mr. Deming. Yes.
Mr. OsMERs. The grower — by "the grower." do you mean the
farmer who owns the land?
Mr. Deming. Yes.
Mr. OsMERS. He is financed by the man who places the tomatoes in
the cans {
]Mr. Deming. Yes.
]Mi-. OsMERS. The man who does the canning operation is financed
by the man who makes the cans?
Mr. Deming. Very frequently.
Mr. OsMERS. I see.
]\Ir. Deming. Not entirely, but in many cases; yes.
TOMATO-PICKING SEASON
^Ir. OsMERS. Tomatoes are a highly perishable crop, as we all
know. Because they are so' perishable, does that bring any special
prol:)lems into the production of tomatoes?
^Ir. Deming. It does. It makes it a very hazardous business in
that the yield per acre, and so forth, varies tremendously from year
to year, due to weather conditions, due to the ability and skill of
the grower himself, how well he takes care of his crop, and due also
to the availabilitv of labor at the time the tomatoes sliould be ]:)icked
and th.e skill of the workers in picking them proj^erlv.
Finally, it depends upon their ability to sell them to the canners,
which again depends u])on market conditions which vary from year
982 IXTERSTATK MIGRATION
to year, as to tlie ])rice of the crop, which determines back down the
line what the canner gets, and, in turn, the grower.
jMr. OsMERs. What is the length of the tomato-picking period '.
Mr. Deming. It starts about the first part of August, or the latter
])art of July and runs through to about the 1st of October.
LABOR SOURCE
Mr. OsMERS. In round numbers, how man}' people are engaged in
picking tomatoes I
Mr. Deming. That I do not know. There have been, here and
there, some estimates made. The State planning board at one time
made an estimate in terms of one of the counties which happened to
be one of the smaller ones. The}- estimated some two or three thou-
sand there.
Mr. OsMERs. Two or three thousand for that one county?
Mr. Deming. Yes.
Mr. Osmers. That would not give us a total figure for the State?
Mr. Deming. No,
Mr. Osmers. AVhere does the labor come from? You say it is sort
of peak-load labor that comes in to pick tomatoes?
Mr. Deming. A large share of it comes in from outside of the State.
The}' do not use local labor entirely. Probably at least 50 percent
of it comes in from outside of the State.
DISPOSIT ox OF LAHOR BETAVEEX SEASiNS
Mr. Osmers. Where does the labor go after the season is over?
Mr. Deming. Some of them return to their homes; part of them.
INIr. Osmers. When you say "return to their homes," you mean they
leave the State of Indiana ?
Mr. Deming. Yes; and go back where they came from. Part of
them move on, following other crops, on up north into Michigan.
However, a certain residue of them every year remains in Indiana,
at the site of their last employment.
ISIr. Osmers. Wliat sort of a problem does that constitute for the
authorities of Indiana ?
^Ir. Deming. It makes a very serious problem. These people are,
by and large, unskilled. They cannot very readily find other types
of employment after the picking season is over. It means they settle
down there and are unemployable until the following year, when
they pick tomatoes again. During this time it means they must be
sup]jorted by public funds; public relief, in other words.
Mr. Osmers. Do you have any settlement laws in the State of In-
diana that would make that type of relief unavailable ?
Mr. Deming. I believe the technical requirement is 1 year's resi-
dence, but in actual practice when the people are there someb<tdy has
got to take cai-e of them either through local agencies, or in some other
way.
Mr. Osmers. Charity?
Mr. Deming. Township trustees, and so forth. When they are
there, they actuall}' do take care of them. After the}' have been there
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 983
tlie first season, they then Avould become eliirible nnder the hiw. when
they have fulfilled the 1-year residence requirement.
Mr. OsMERS. There is not any clause in your 1-year residence law
that requires you to live for 1 year in the State without receiving-
l)ublic assistance (
Mr. Demixo. Not that I know of.
]Mr. OsjiERs. In most of the States we haA'e studied, residents on
jMiblic relief does not constitute residence at all. You have to live
without ])ublic relief for a specific period.
Mr. Demixo. I see.
Mr. Os-AiEus. In our travels, ]Mr. Deming, we have found in many
States where tliere are migrant workers left over, so to speak, at
the end of the season, an elfort is made by the State in which
they are left to send them back to the State whence they came. Does
Indiana make any such effort (
Mr. Dehiixg. Yes. There have been from time to time such ef-
forts made. It is rather involved. The other State naturally re-
sists such effort, but they have actually exported them, you might
say, from time to time. It is fairly expensive in itself to pay their
trans]wrtation and so foith back home.
^Ir. OsMEiis. Aside from the pickers, how about the canning in-
(hi-try? Are thev local Indiana workers?
]Mr. Demixo. Yes. They are to a much greater extent. Some
of these people have come in from outside of the State and. after
the picking season is over, they attempt to find work in the canning
factories. They are frequently able to do so. By and large, most
of tlie labor employed in canning factories is local, the reason for
th.at being that the w:ige scale is relatively much higher in the can-
ning factory than for the picking, and local people are willing to
acce])t employment in the canning factorv.
Mr. OsMi :rs. In the canning industry in Indiana at the conclusion
of the tomato-canning season, is there any other canning that con-
tinues through the year? I am trying to establish the fact as to
v\hether this is an annual business, or a seasonal business: that is,
the canning business?
jNIr. De:mtxg. "Well, that varies with the canner. They have some
smaller canners located out in the tomato-picking area that can only
tomatoes. Many of the larger ones, however, go right on through
the fall, caiming pumpkins and that sort of thing. They open up
in the spring and start canning peas and corn, and they will go
right on through to pumpkins in November or December. I believe
jnnnpkins are about the last crop the}' can.
wages
^Ir. OsMERS. I wonder if you would give the committee the benefit
of your knowledge of the labor conditions and the wage conditions
in the tomato-picking work.
Mr. Deming. Yes. That is the crux of the problem here. By
and large, the wages paid in the tomato picking, in terms of hun-
dreds of people involved within one county, are so low the local
260370 — 40 — pt. 3 12
984 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
unemployed people are unwilling to accept that type of work, even
though we may have in the county several thousand people nnem-
]doyed. They are able-bodied, physically able to do the work. They
refuse to acce):)t that type of employment because of the low Avages
and the hard working conditions.
^Ye have a strange situation. On the one hand we have a consider-
able number of local unemployed people registered with the relief
agencies, W. P. A., and so forth, and at the same time we have an influx
of hundreds of outsiders who accept that type of employment. It is a
very difficult thing to pin down, as to what is exactly the average wage
paid, for the reason that it is based on a piece rate. They pay them so
much a hamper. The size of the hamper varies, and from time to time
the growers will use boxes or bushel baskets, pails, or anything they
can get hold of. They get paid so many cents a basket or a hamper.
There are so many variables it is impossible to tell what their earnings
will be. For example, weather conditions affect it. If it has rained
the night before, and the vines are bent down, they can't pick nearly as
fast as otherwise. It depends on how recently the field has been picked,
the condition of the field, how fertile it is, and so forth.
The}' will pay them 4 or 5 cents for grade 1 tomatoes, for example.
It is very difficult at times, due to the condition of the field in the
early morning when there is dew on the tomatoes, to decide readily
whether to pick them, and to pick them very readily. In the end, when
they bring in their hampers and check them, there is frequently a dis-
pute as to what grade they have picked, and so forth.
As nearly as we can tell in the emj^loyment service in Indiana, an
able-bodied man Avorking from 14 to 16 hours a day in a normal fertile
field averages from $1.50 to $2.50. That is not the highest amount he
may make, but the average for the season would tend to show they
woidd make $1.50 to $2.50.
Mr. OsMERS. Let me interrupt you right there.
Mr. Deming. Yes.
Mr. OsMERs. Does that include anything else aside from wages?
Does it include housing and food i
Mr. Deming. It will include some provision for housing. Housing
may only consist of permission to sleep in the field. It may consist of
any sort of shack available on the land. That is ordinarily included,
where they live far enough away so they do not commute every day out
to the farm. It would include provision for housing. Normally, the
season is so short it would not include provision for cows, chickens, or
anything like that.
LIVING AND HEALTH CONDITIONS
Mr. OsMFRS. Have you had any difficulties of a political nature on
the part of local growers when they have had to go outside of the State
to eet labor to pick their tomatoes?
]Mr. Deming. Yes ; we have, in Johnson County, Ind.
Mr. OsMERS. I am talking now about a man who is a taxpayer and
contributing to the support of the local relief clients.
Mr. Deming. Yes.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 985
]Mr. OsMiRS. Then he must employ people from Kentucky or Mis-
sissippi, or some place to do work around his place.
Mr. Deming. Yes.
Mr. OsMERs. We have a very similar condition in my State of New
Jersey. I know it has created something of a problem.
Mr. Deming. It has been rather the other way. The nongrowers
and the general public resent the action on the part of the growers
being willing to hire these out -of -State people, and in many instances
actually encouraging out-of-State people to come in, when there are
plenty of unemployed people already there. The growers' answer
to that is that if they will work, they will be glad to give the local
l)e()ple the jobs. The feeling seems to be there is something wrong
with it.
Mr. OsMERS. We found in New Jersey there were two contribut-
ing causes to the fact that the relief client would not take this pick-
ing work. One was laziness. The second cause was a lack of physi-
cal equipment to do the work. In other words, a physical inability
to spend a 14-hour back-breaking day in the field.
Mr. Deming. Yes.
Mr. OsMERS. That would be impossible for an unemployed store
clerk, or something of that sort.
Mr. Deming. Yes.
Mr. OsMERs. Would j'ou say those were governing factors in In-
diana also?
Mr. Deming. Yes.
Mr. OsMERS. Some are lazy and some are not equipped to do it?
Mr. Deming. That is true.
Mr. O'-MKRs. Indiana, I presume, has a State department of health.
^Ir. Deming. Yes.
Mr. OsMERS. Does the State depai'tment of health exert any con-
trol at all over living conditions of these workers^
Mr. Deming. Xo ; they have not so far.
Mr. Osmers. They have not investigated?
Mr. Deming. No.^
thev checked the individual health of the
they blood-tested them or anything of that
Mr. Osmers. Is there any movement on foot leading in that direc-
tion ?
Mr. Deming. Not that I know of. The State planning board did
report that their housing conditions did violate the law of Indiana,
but so far as I know no action has ever been taken.
Mr. Osmers. Again referring to my own State, we have investi-
gated the situation there very carefully. We blood tested nearly
every migrant worker that came into the State, into the potato-
picking fields. We found they averaged more than 40 percent syphi-
litic. I wonder if a similar condition exists in Indiana, whether
that amount of syphilis is being brought into the State each year?
Mr. Osmers.
Have
pickers ?
Mr. Deming.
No.
Mr. Osmers.
Have
sort ?
Mr, Deming.
No.
ggg INTERSTATE MIGRATION
]Mr. Deming. It doubtless runs high above the State average.
Mr. OsMERS. Unquestionably.
Mr. Deming. I would not know whether it would be that high or
not,
Mr. OsMERS. In your statement you refer to a report on one of
your counties that \vas made by the State planning board.
Mr. Deming. Yes.
Mr. O'SMERS. What is the State planning board ?
Mr. Deming. It is a board set up and supported by Federal and
State funds, and it is largely a research unit. I believe they are
associated in Washington with the National Resources Board. It is
a Government research unit investigating various phases of relief,
labor conditions, agricultural conditions, and natural resources of the
State, the need for public works and things of that kind.
Mr. OsMERS. The name of this county they reported on, I believe, is
Johnson County (
Mr. Deming. Yes.
Mr. OsMERS. What did the plannnig board say about conditions in
Johnson County ?
Mr. Deming.' I believe. ])erhaps, I ought to read that excerpt.
Mr. OsMERs. I think the committee would like to hear it.
Mr. Deming. These two paragraphs are excerpts from the official
report made by the State planning board with respect to Johnson
County :
Vegetable canning, the principal industry, is a seasonal occupation and there-
fore has created serious economic and social problems attendant upon seasonal
employment, ^tligration from Kentucky is responsible for a large part of the
lelief population. Housing among relief clients, espec-ially those originating in
Kentucky, is extremely bad and violates minimum standards of living, legal
and otherwise, although rural housing is generally ab(jve the average for the
State.
Pay rolls are loaded with ti'ansient Kentuckians while many ■mployable
citizens of Indiana are on relief rolls because of lack of eni])loyment.
LABOR EMPLOYMENT
Mr. Osmers. Would you say that is a statement that would apply
to the rest of the agricultural i)arts of Indiana ?
Mr. Dkming. No. I would say it would be pretty much limited to
the tomato-picking section.
Mr. O'^mers. I see.
Mr. Deming. It would apply generally throughout that area.
Mr. Osmers. I wanted to delineate that area.
]\Ir. Deming. Yes.
]SIr. Osmers. You say there are no accurate figures as to the number
fif these migratory laborers that come into the State?
Mr. Deming. No.
Mr. Osmers. Could you answer this: Do these people, upon their
own initiative, come there, or are they brought there by labor con-
tractors, or perhaps foremen of the growers whose tomatoes are to be
picked?
Mr. Deming. To some extent they come on their own initiative. I
know there are growers who advertise in newspapers in Kentucky.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 987
"Oixlinaril}' the ad takes the form of aimoiincino- that they will have a
truck down there at a certain hour on a certain date, and everybody
who wants to come up and work there v\ill be transported by them.
They send the truck down. The peo])le will ixather in the village
square, the courthouse, or some place down there, and they briny-
them u]).
Mr. OsMERS. This is certainly of great interest to this committee,
although it may be aside from your knowledge: Do you happen to
know what most of these tomato pickers do for the remainder of the
year ?
Mr. Deming. Down in Kentucky, for example?
Ml'. OsMERs. In Kentucky, oi- wherever they come from.
Mr. Deming. They live in those little rural sections down there.
I do not mean Louisville, or any of those cities. They are from the
southern part of Kentucky. They live out on little farms. They
farm. INIost of them are farm people.
Mr. OsMERS. More or less subsistence farmers, as we call them ?
Mr. Deming. Yes. They are tenant farmers and sharecroppers.
The children, the sons and daughters, come and work for a couple of
months, and then return to the old folks, having picked up a little
cash.
]Mr. OsMERS. Right on that point, do they have women and children
working in these tomato fields?
INIr. Deming. Yes. Some of these growers do employ women and
children.
jMr. OsMERS. Does the State of Indiana attempt to do anything
about enforcing child-labor restrictions?
Mr. Deming. We have no child-labor laws that cover the employ-
ment of children in agriculture. There are some applying to the
mining industry, but not agriculture.
Mr. Osmers. These pickers tliat come for the tomato season are not
annual migratory workers; that is, they do not follow the crops from
the extreme South up to the North, and go back ?
Mr. Deming. No. A large part of them come up for this one
crop.
]Mr. Osmers. A large proportion of them come up just for the
tomato-picking season ?
^Ir. Deming. Yes; and then return.
IMr. Osmers. They get a little cash, and go back?
INIr. Deming. Yes.
Mr. Osmers. You are with the employment seivice^
Mr. Deming. Yes.
Mr. Osmers. Therefore, you might be expected to h.ave a part in
l)lacing these people. Does your employment service go into the
placing of these workers or not?
Mr. Deming. No; we do not. We faced this problem 2 or 3 years
ago Miien we did get a large nimiber of orders from the growers for
tomato pickers. In this region hundreds of people registered with
us for work. As we got into it, through our local offices, and attempted
to refer them, and place them, more and more we got to the point
where we decided that, with rare exceptions, it was a substandard
988
IXTERSTATK MIUKATION
job, and therefore involved the tyi^e of employment which from a
I)iiblic relations standpoint, we should avoid.
Our standard rule is that we do not refer people to substandard
jobs, substandard in terms of wages, living conditions, or health
conditions.
Mr. (JSMERS. Do you feel it is within the jurisdiction of your
agency to pass upon the working conditions, or not?
Mr. Deming. I believe it is to the extent of determining whether
or not a job is, as I say, substandard, if it is a pretty clear-cut case —
beyond that, no.
Mr. OsMERS. Carrying it to the extreme, if it vvas clearly a case
of substandard working conditions, do you feel it would be within
the scope of the agency with which you are connected to become^
shall we say, almost a law-enforcement agency? After all, you
would be enforcing the State health laws of the State of Indiana^
yet you are the State employment service.
Mr. Deming. Yes. That is true. We vrould refuse to send
applicants.
Mr. OsMERS. I see.
Mr. Demixg. I believe we have that responsibility.
Mr. OsMERS. I might express my own opinion that I do not be-
lieve your agency has the power to do that, but that is just my own
personal opinion.
Mr. Deming. Yes.
Mr. OsMERS. What is your procedure, presuming that I am oper-
ating a farm on substandard wage conditions and' living conditions
out 100 miles from your offices, somewhere? How would you be
aware of that ?
Mr. Deming. We would not get involved in it at all until such
time as you came to our office to obtain workers.
Mr. Osmers. I see. It would be after I did that ?
Mr. Deming. Yes.
Mr. Osmers. Would you then investigate me?
Mr, Deming. Yes. We would want to find out something about
you; what your reputation had been the year before, and that sort
of thing. That can very easily be done through the people there
in town, the canners, or that sort of thing. If nothing else, we
might send out a half a dozen people to try it out and see how
they came out.
Mr. Osmers. In other words, it would be word-of-mouth testi-
mony. If some dissatisfied worker said he had been employed at
my place, and I had been very unfair to him the year before, you
would feel it within your province to refused
Mr. Deming. No. It would have to be considerably more than
that. It would have to be a case where a great number of workers
unanimously singled you out, and refused to work for you. In
other words, there would have to be a number of them who would
say, "I will work for you and you and you, but not one single one
of us here in town would work for him."' We would think there
must be some pretty good reason then.
Mr. Osmers. What I want to get at is. do you feel the present law
under which your employment service was established should be
INTERSTATE MIGRATION QgQ
c'liaiioed so (lie thiiifjs you are now doiiifj, in my opinion, illeo;ally,
could be done legally, so that you would then have some opportunity
foi- observing working- conditions and checking on hours and waores?
Mr. Deming. Well, only to this extent : I think we are within our
rights in turning down jobs that involve anythino- that is illegal. For
example, if we, as one governmental agency, should place an appli-
cant in employment that later developed to be illegal, such as placing
a 14-year-old in a mining job, which the State labor law strictly for-
bids, we would be in a defenseless position when the State labor depart-
ment came to us. The employer would use us as an alibi. He would
say, 'Well, the employment service recommended this employee," and
we Avould then be in a defenseless position.
We believe we can defend that kind of action. It nuist be definitely
illegal employment in terms of actual State statutes, or definitely sub-
standard, and then in the public interest we believe we are justified
in refusing to refer people to that type of employment.
Mr. OsMERS. What part of this agricultural industry, so to speak,
is under the provisions of the wage-and-hours law ?
Mr. Deming. The principal canning factories are, the larger ones,
located in the larger towns. As I recall, the provisions of the wages-
and-hours law, it is determined partly by whether they can produce
outside of the immediate area of production, and partly by the size
town in which they are located. The canning factories in Indian-
apolis are subject to the wages-and-hours law. In many of our other
towns a good many of them are subject to the Federal wages-and-
hours law.
Mr. OsMERS. Are any of these migratory workers organized ?
Mr. Deming. No. There has been practically no activity along that
line in Indiana.
Mr. OsMERs. Do you feel it would be helpful if they were ?
Mr. Deming. It might be one i^ossible solution. I think it would
be an extremely difficult undertaking for anyone to organize them.
Mr. OsMERS. You mean there would not be much money in it ?
IVlr. Deeming. I think that is true. It would afford such a small
amount, the monthly dues and that sort of thing, you could not offer
much of an inducement.
Mr. OsMERS. It is rather a fluid group to work with, with respect to
forming any organization ?
Mr. Deming. Yes. I would not say that was very likely to happen.
Mr. Osmers. Probably not. The employment does not exist long
enough to justify it.
Mr. Deming. That is true.
RECOMMENDATIONS
Mr. OsMERs. What would your recommendations be to improve con-
ditions for migratory workers in the State of Indiana ?
Mr. Deming. We have had many sessions with various State de-
partments and agencies on this very subject. We run into one stone
wall, and that is this: Any action on the part of the State govern-
ment that would tend to raise the cost of production of tomatoes, for
ggQ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
exaniiile. a niinimiim-wag:e law requiring: growers to pay a certain
niininuun wnge of 25 or 30 cents an liour, it is claimed — I do not ques-
tion it at all— would jKit Indiana canners at such a competitive dis-
advantao-e that the result would undoubtedly be not to raise wages
among the pickers in Indiana, but the result would be to do a\yay with
the tomato-raising industry in Indiana, because they can raise them
in the surrounding States very readily.
In most of these canning factories they have not such a big invest-
ment that they could not move the thing in. a couple of days over into
Ohio. Kentucky, and so forth. The argument that is continually
raised by many well-informed people is that that would be the in-
evitable "result of any minimum-wage legislation or any strict control
over housing, necessitating them to furnish one farmhouse for so many
people in the same family, or that sort of thing, which would defi-
nitely increase the cost to "the grower, forcing him to go out and build
homes for them, and so forth.
Mr. Curtis. I would like to ask a question right there, if I may
interrupt. Mr. Osmers.
jNIr. Osmers. Yes; certainly.
Mr. Curtis. Is it not true, in dealing with the producer of agricul-
tural products, that when you raise Avages and other costs it does not
raise the price of tomatoes "or corn or anything else that is paid to the
grower, but it really is deducted from that?
Mr. Deming. Yes. That is the net effect.
Mr. Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Deming. Because, by and large, the canners in the end are still
competing, and they feel that they could not pay the grower anything
beyond a certain price. If this labor cost increases, that is more or
less his problem. They still are going to pay them about the same
price.
Mr. Curtis. If the price of tomatoes and other agricultural prod-
ucts is up high, then you do not have a great deal of quarrel with
t hose growers to pay adequate wages, do you ?
Mr.' Deming. Well, there would certainly be a tendency in that
direction. The wider the margin they have to work on, in other words,
the more ready they are to pay liigher wages.
Mr. Osmers. Yes.
Mr. Deming. It is difficult. They are squeezed down to where they
do not see how they are going to come out, anyway.
Mv. Curtis. They do often reach a point where the price of their
crop is very near to wdiat they have to pay out ?
Mr. Deming. That is very true.
Mr. Curtis. In wages and other items ?
Mv. Deming. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Sometimes just a little bit more will put them out of
Imsiness ?
Mr. Deming. That is very true.
Mr. Osmers. I would like to ask one more question. Do you have
a canners' association in Indiana?
Mv. Deming. Yes ; we do.
iNIr. Osmers. Is it an important, powerful, and effective group?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 991
Mr. Demixg. Yes; it is. It is rather important there. They send
their representatives down to Wasliington for k)ng periods of time,
and claim to do considerable good. It is a rather important gronp.
Mr. OsMERS. Are they a forward-looking group of citizens? Are
tliey interested in working conditions? And are they interested in
labor standards ?
]Mr. Deming. I believe they are a little bit more interested in mar-
keting arrangements and in the wages-and-hours law as applied to their
own canning factories, and in taxation. State taxation and things of
that kind, rather than conditions pertaining to labor.
Mr. Osmers. They have very little to do directly
Mr. Deming. They are one step removed from the grower.
Mr. Osmers. They have very little to do directly with the employ-
ment of this migratory labor?
Mr. Deming. That is true; but I would say they deal with at
least 90 percent of all the tomato growers, so it would be a very
representative association, pretty well financed.
Mr. Osmers. Would you say the wages-and-hours law should be ex-
tended to agriculture?
Mr. Deming. I do not believe I would be qualified to answer that
question directly. That would have the one advantage of eliminating
this argument that no one State can afford to raise their cost of pro-
(Uiction, because of the unfair competitive advantage. That would
lemove that objection, if it were a national scheme. If the tomato
laisers in Ohio and Michigan had to pay the same labor costs, I am sure
the Indiana people would have no objection to ))aying 20 or 2.5 or 30
percent higher wages, or whatever it would be, as long as everybody else
is going to pay the same thing.
Mr. Osmers. Do you anticipate you would have some difficulty in
enforcement, because of the varying benefits that are given to the
workers in addition to the cash they receive?
Mr. Deming. That is true. It would be extremely difficult.
Mr. Osmers. We have found every extreme, where they receive just
cash, where they receive cash and substandard housing, where they
I'eceive cash and good housing, and where the}^ receive cash, housing,
and food. It might make it a pretty difficult problem to enforce it
effectively.
Mr. Deming. I think it would be extremely difficult.
Mr. Osmers. But you feel it Avould eliminate the competitive argu-
ment ?
Mr. Deming. Yes.
Mr. Osmers. Where one State might have it and not the others?
Mr. Deming. Yes.
Mr. Osmers. That is all I have.
Mr. Parsons. Are there any other questions ?
employment situation Lr^CAL AND INTERSTATE
i\Ir. Sparkman. I have a question. Mr. Deming, I was just wonder-
ing, with reference to your referring these people to the growers, or
vour refusing; to refer them, if vou found out it was a substandard
992
IN'TERSTATE MIGRATION
job. I have read over your requirements, and I was just wonderino; if.
instead of insistinof uiwn the letter of those requirements, you could
not work out some kind of a satisfactory arran^rement with the fjrowers
themselves? For instance, down at Montjjomery we found that in-
stead of the employment service applyinjz a definite rule— of course,
that was with reference to cotton pickers— the pickers themselves often
a])])lied the rule. In other words, the word got around that over on
this plantation they do not receive the risht treatment, and therefore
thev will not ao over there. The i)ickers just would not <x(>.
He said that the net result of that was that all of the plantation
owners came to pretty much the same scale of opei-ation in order to
remove that competitive feature. I was just wonderino; if perhaps
conditions could not be gradually lifted up
Mr. Demino. Yes.
Mr. Spaijkman. Through some kind of cooperative effort ?
Mr. Demixg. Yes. That is very possible. This standard is not quite
as arbitrary as it sounds. What we ask our local office managers is,
"Under what conditions can you refer local unemployed people?
You tell us you cannot handle these orders, because it means you
have to send down to Kentucky to obtain laborers and that everybody
is going to be on your neck if you bring up Kentnckians, when you have
these local people registered in your offices.''
There were conditions under Avhich they could not get local people
to take the work. We felt that we could "not consistently clear those
orders and go outside of the State, when we had ])lenty of local quali-
fied people who refused to take the job, because, in their judgment, at
least, it was substandard, and they were unwilling to take it. We
would place ourselves in the emi)l()ynient office in a bad light if we
were responsible for bringing in hundreds and thousands of out-of-
State people when they had at the same time these local unemployed
people.
]Mr. OsMERS. Have any people been removed from relief in Indiana
lecause they refused to accept labor of this type?
Mr. Deming. No.
Mr. OsMERS. They have not ?
Mr. Deming. No."^ W. P. A. will not remove them from the rolls.
Thev have ruled it is unsuitable employment.
Mr. OsMERS. One of the requirements here is to receive at least 30
cents an hour. Do W. P. A. workers received 30 cents an hour ?
Mr. Deming. It is about $45 a month for 130 hours.
Mr. Sparkman. With respect to these people in Indianapolis, I
notice you say you have a sufficient number within 25 miles of this area
to do the work?
Mr. Demixg. Yes.
Mr. SpAEKMAN. They do not do it because of the fact that they I'e-
gard it as substandard?
Mr. Demixg. Yes; because of the low wages.
Mr. Sparkmax. Does the (Question of experience have anything to
do with it ?
Mr. Deming. Yes. Of course, your industrial workers in Indian-
apolis, even if the wages were a little bit higher, would not take this
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 993
woi'k (111 a piece-work basis. They wouldn't fjo out and work 14 or IG
houi's duriiio' a day, work all day in the hot sun carrying hampers,
crates, and so forth. We have plenty of ])eople in Indianapolis who
have migrated in from the rural areas. We could easily pick up sev-
eral hundred people who had worked on the farms up until the last
year or two and had done that type of work, who were farmers, farm
"hands, and so forth. We have plenty of people available, limited
strictly to men who have been raised on the farms as boys, or who
have liad work on the farm up until the last year or two.
Mr. Sparkman. I believe you said that not many of these people re-
main ; most of them go back home?
Mr. Deming. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. They just come and stay during the season?
Mr. Deming. I would say by far the majority do go home. There is
some residue, but the majority do go back home.
Mr. Sp.arkman. I believe you stated your State department of health
(loes not exercise control over housing and sanitary conditions?
Mr. Deming. No. So far as I know, they have never made an in-
vestigation or a public statement on this situation.
Mr. Sparkman. Do you have county health units in each county?
Mr. Deming. Well, yes. They represent a county official, responsible
for the county, a health officer or something along that line. They
have protested frequently, but nothing has ever come of it.
Mr. Sparkman. I believe that is all.
Mr. Parsons. Arethereany other questions? [No res])onse.] Thank
you very much, Mr. Deming. Your paper has been made a part of our
formal record. You are excused.
(Whereupon Mr. Deming was excused.)
TESTIMONY OF LEANDER TTJNGATE
Mr. Parsons. The next witness will be Mr. Tungate. Congressman
Sparkman will interrogate you, Mr. Tungate.
Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Tungate, give your full name and address to
tlie reporter, please.
Mr. Tungate. Leander Tungate. Greenwood, Ind., route 1.
Mr. Sparkman. Are you married ?
Mr. Tungate. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Any children?
Mr. Tungate. Five.
Mr. Sparkman. Where are you from, originally ?
Mr. Tungate. Kentucky.
Mr. Sparkman. How did you happen to come to Indiana?
Mr. Tungate. Well, my wife had a brother u]) there. Pie had a
tomato cro)3 that he wanted picked. I wanted to help pick the tomatoes.
I came up here.
Mr. Sparkman. When was that ?
Mr. Tungate. 1932 or 1933. I don't know which.
Mr. Sparkman. Well, then, did you stay?
Mr. Tungate. Yes. I didn't stay exactly at all times, though.
Througli the summer and fall I would stay and then go back to Ken-
tucky a couple of months through the worst of the winter.
gg4 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Sparkman. Then come back up in the spring ?
Mr. TuNGATE. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. What is the tomato-picking season? When does it
start in Indiana?
]\Ir. TuNGATE. You mean, picking, setting, or which?
Mr. Sparkman. Whatever work you do. Did you do all of the
work ?
Mr. TuNGATE. No.
Mr. Sparkman. What did you do ?
Mr, TuNGATE. Well, I have set, and I have picked.
Mr. Sparkman. Now, I presume they use regular workers for pre-
paring the ground, setting them out and cultivating?
Mr. TuNGATE. That is right.
Mr. Sparkman. And then they have an influx of workers that
comes to do the picking?
Mr. Tung ATE. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. When is the picking season?
Mr. TuNGATE. Well, it is now. It is starting now, and runs until
about frost, or something near that. I have picked them after they
froze.
Mr. Sparkman. Does your wife work in the tomato fields?
Mr. TuNGATE. Once in a while.
Mr. Sparkman. Any of your children?
Mr. TuNGATE. No.
Mr. Sparkman. How old is your oldest child?
Mr. TuNGATE, Well. I believe she is 10 or a little over.
Mr. Sparkman. Do you own your own home?
Mr. TuNGATE. No. i don't own nothing.
Mr. Sparkman. Do j-ou have a cow?
Mr. TuNGATE. No,
Mr. Sparkman. Do you have a garden?
Mr. TuNGATE. No.
Mr. Sparkman. Any chickens?
Mr. TuNGATE. About six, I think.
Mr. Sparkman. What did you do in Kentucky before you came up
here ?
Mr. Tungate Well, I farmed a little bit. I just worked on wages
part of the time.
Mr. Sparkman. On the farm ?
Mr. Tungate. No.
Mr. Sparkman. As a farm laborer?
Mr. Tungate. I didn't own no farm.
Mr. Sparkman. I did not mean that. You said you worked for
wages.
>Tr. Tungate. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. On the farm ?
Mr. Tungate. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Were you a farm laborer?
Mr. Tungate. Y^s.
Mr. Spakkm^n What kind of a house do you live in ?
Mr. Tungate. Not much.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 995
Mr. Sparkman. What do you mean? Do you rent a house?
Mr. TrxGATE. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. What rent do you pay ?
Mr. TuNGATE. $2 a month.
Mr. Sparkman. How many rooms?
Mr. Tt'NGATE. One.
Mr. Sparkman. You and 3'our wife and how many children?
Mr. Tungate. Five.
Mr. Sparkman. You all live in that one room?
jMr. Tungate. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Do you cook in that room?
Mr. Tungate. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. You sleep there ?
Mr, Tungate. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Is there any other room in connection with it. any
outside room, or anything?
Mr. Tungate. No. That is just one room.
Mr. Sparkman. Do you have running water?
Mr. Tungate. Xo. We have got a well.
Mr. Sparkman. What do you make per year, about what income?
Mr. Tungate. Well, that would be kind of hard to say. I wouldn't
know. Of course, it varies from year to year, according to conditions.
Mr. Sparkman. I was just wondering what it woulcl amount to in
round numbers.
]Mr. Tungate. I just wouldn't have no idea.
iNIr. Sparkman. How much can you make a day during the picking
seas(jn ?
Mr. Tungate. Around 3 or 4 dollars, in what time I get to work at
that.
Mr. Sparkman. Is the work prety regular during the season ?
Mr. Ti NGATE. Yes, it is; during the season.
Mr. Sparkman. The season will not last more than 2i4 or 3 months,
will it?
Mr. Tungate. Something near that.
Mr. Sparkman. Have you ever worked at the cannery?
Mr. Tungate. Very little.
Mr. Sparkman. Do migrants haA^e any trouble coming into the
county ( Do thev try to keep tliem out, or run them out, or anythino-
like that ^ - . =
Mr. Tungate. Well, they have a little trouble. I have heard. I don't
know nothing about it, as far as I am concerned.
Mr. Sparkman. You have never been disturbed ?
Mr. Tungate. No.
Mr. Sparkman. As a matter of fact, you are an old resident over
there now yourself, are you not?
Mr. Tungate. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. How do tomato pickers live when they come up
into Johnson County? Are their living conditions prett}' much the
same as yours, or not so good?
^Tr. Tt'NGATE. Not so good.
Mr. Sparkman. They live outside, do they?
996 INTERSTATE MlGliATlOX
Mr. TuNGATE. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. In tents, shacks, or what ?
Mr. Tungate. Just in school-bus bodies, tents, or anytliing they can
get to stay in.
Mr. Sparkman. Just anything they can find i
Mr. Tungate. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. What kind of sanitary facilities do you have ( Are
there any sanitary closets of any kind?
Mr. Tungate. I put up myself.
Mr. Sparkman. You put up one yourself?
Mr. Tungate. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. AVith respect to these migrants who come in. do they
have any sanitary facilities?
Mr. Tungate. I don't think so.
Mr. Sparkman. Where do thej^ go after they finish tomato picking
in Johnson County?
Mr. Tungate. Most of them goes back.
Mr. Sparkman. Back to Kentucky?
Mr. Tungate. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. That is where most of them come from, is it not ?
Mr. Tungate. Kentuckj', Tennessee, and Florida is where most of
them come from.
Mr. Sparkman. Do you know how many acres of txmialoes are
usually grown in Johnson County?
Mr. Tungate. I wouldn't have no idea.
Mr. Sparkman. Do you know how many people it requires tu har-
vest the crop each 3'ear?
Mr. Tungate. No.
Mr. Sparkman. I believe that is all.
Mr. Curtis. How large a family did you say you had ?
Mr. Tungate. Five.
Mr. Curtis. How long have you been in Indiana ?
Mr. Tungate. I have been there 6 years, off and on.
Mr. Curtis. Have you sought public relief at any time ?
Mr. Tungate. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Did they consider you a resident of Indiana fur that
purpose ?
]\Ir. Tungate. They ought to. I voted.
Mr. Curtis. You had no trouble getting it from the residence
standpoint ?
Mr. Tungate. Xo. I didn't have no trouble.
Mr. Curtis. With reference to this one-room house you spoke of,
what is the size of that room ?
Mr. Tungate. I believe it is about 16 by 18. or something near that.
I wouldn't know exactly.
Mr. Curtis. What part of Indiana is this located in?
Mr. Tungate. Johnson County.
Mr. Curtis. Where is Johnson County ?
Mr. Tungate. Well, it is south of Marion.
Mr. Curtis. That is all.
Mr. Parsons. Have you any questions, Congressman Osmers?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 997
Mr. OsMERs. No, thank you.
Mr. Parsons. Thank you very much. Mi-. Tun<j,;Ue. We appreciate
your cominoj before us.
(Whereupon Mr. Tunoate was excused.)
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM G. MURRAY, PROFESSOR OF AGRICUL-
TURAL ECONOMICS, IOWA STATE COLLEGE, AMES, IOWA
Mr. Parsons. Tlie next witness will be Mv. Murray.
Mr. Curtis. Give your full name to the reporter, please, Mr. Murray.
Mr. Murray. William G. Murray.
Mr. Curtis. What is your occupation?
Mr. Murray. Professor of agricultural economics, Iowa State Col-
lege, Ames, Iowa.
Mr. Curtis. You are out where the tall corn grows, are you not?
Mr. Murray. Yes, sir.
Air. Curtis, yiv. ^Murray, you have made a very interesting study
here. I have your statement before me, and I find it very interesting.
Your entire paper will be made a part of oin- record. Because this is
a Xation-wide hearing, eventually in our report we must rely upon
the ])rinted page.
Mr. Murray. Yes.
(The statement referred to is as follows:)
Statement by William G. Murkay, Pr;>fessor of Agkicuetural Economics.
Iowa State College, Ames, Iowa
The farm tinancial .sitiiatiim in the Middle West and especially in Iowa may be
snmmar.zed brielly in four points:
1. The large reduction in farm-mortgage debt during the last Li years has
been brought about chiefly by foreclosures and other forced sales.
2. Although less than one-half of the fai'm land is mortgaged, the land inider
mortgage is heavily mortgaged. Owner-operated land is more frequently UKU-t-
gaged than land of absentee owners.
8. Foreclosiires and other forced sales have been concenti'ated in certain ai'eas.
Drought, soil erosion, and overvaluation have been the principal reasons for the
distress in these problem areas. Corporate ownership of land is heavy in these
areas.
4. The trend in farm size is toward more large farms and more small farms,
and toward less farms of medium size. Modern tractors and equipment are
responsible for this two-way pressux*e.
Recommendations for improvement of the situation, particuhiily in the prolilem
ai'eas. include the following:
1. Increased use of the sale contract by corporations in selling tlieii- farm land
to tenants ;
2. Expansion of the tenant-purchase program of the Farm Security Administra-
tion through the use of Federal Land Bank and Land Bank Connnissioner loans;
(use of these loans would make appropriated funds cover more than twice the
present numbei- of tenants ) :
.8. Increased use of variable payments on principal by lending agencies, the
payment varying with the crop or livestock returns :
4. More emphasis on appraising land in terms of what it will i)roduce: and
.5. Provision of small, part-time or self-sufliciug, farm imits for people crowded
out by increasing size of farm.
Mortgage indebtedness declined in the Middle West and in Iowa almost con-
tinuously between 102.') and 19.39. The largest drop took place during the years
1P31-.S.5. These were the years when foreclosures and othei- forced sales were
the highest. Most of the debt reduction was accomplished, as the data indicate.
by cancelation through forced sales. (See exhibits A, B, C. and D.)
998
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
One of the striking facts in the financial situation is the kirge number of farms
without any mortgage debt. Almost two-thirds of the farms in the United States
in ItKio were clear of mortgage. But this favorable fact has two qualifications.
First, tlie situation is less favorable on the owner-operated farms : 25.1 percent of
the tenant farms are mortgaged and 41.5 percent of the owner-operated farms.
Secondl.v. those farms that are mortgaged are heavily mortgaged. Evidence on
these points is presented in exhibits E. F, and G.
The depression has hit some areas much more seriously than others. These dis-
tress areas are indicated by the maps showing the location of land owned by cor-
porations (exhibits H and P). In Iowa, insurance companies have more f.irni
land than any other lending agency (exhibits K and L). In Iowa and other Mid-
dle West States drought and soil erosion have been an important cause of the
financial distress (exhibits M and N). The distribution of Farm Security Admin-
istration standard-loan cases in Iowa bears ovit the concentration of financial
distress in certain restricted areas (exhibit O). The effects of the drought are
evident in the reduction in land values which has occurred in the drought States
(exhibit Q).
Tractors and modern equipment are causing a steady expansion in the size
of farm most profitable to operate. As a result, the If.O-acre family-sized
farm is growing into a 200- or 240-acre family-siz.nl farm. Adjoining farms
or parts of farms are being rented or bought by farmers in order to keep their
tractors and equipment busy. Many of the tenants who are displaced in this
process are locating apparently on small part-time, or self-sufficing farm units.
This two-way movement tov/ard moi'e larger and more smaller farms is indi-
cated, for Iowa, in exhibit R. A similar tendency is evident in other middle
west States.
The depression, with its concentration of foreclosures and other forced sales
in cei-tain problem areas, created a tenancy problem in these areas. Soil
erf)Sion and heavy crojiping, which accounted in part for the foreclosures,
continue to be major obstacles as long as the land is on the market. Tenants
who are farming this land cannot be blamed for taking a short-sighted view
when they know the farms may be sold at any time. Those lending corpora-
tions who ai'e selling to tenants on contract with a small down payment are
assisting matei'ially in I'elieving the tenant problem in areas where foreclosures
have been high.
Another means of assisting able tenants into ownership would be an ex-
pansion of the tenant-purchase program of the Farm Security Administration.
On January 1, 1910, the Farm Security Administration reported only 466
tenant-purchase loans in the east north-central States and 804 in the west
north-central division. In Iowa the total number of borrowers was 198. Since
fund.- for these loans must come from direct appropriations, it would
appear desirable to arrange Federal Land Bank and Land Bank Commissioner
loans to the tenant-iiurchase borrowers and to use the appropriated funds for
the am«>unt not covered by these loans.
Financial disti'ess in the Middle West and the Great Plains region could
be greatly I'educed if arrangements were made in advance for handling mort-
gage delinquencies caused by drought and exceptionally low piices. The
farmer's peace of mind and his attitude toward the mortgage-lending agency
would be improved measurably if the principal payment on his mortgage vai'ied
with his income or with his crop returns. In the past, moi'tgage agencies
have been o):)erating as if farmers in the Great Plains could pay cash rent
each year, whereas, as most landlords agree, a share of the crop is the better
arrangement where yields and prices are highly variable. What is needed
is a plan wher>^by the fan-ier makes a payment on his mortgage similar to
the crop-share payment to the landlord. The Farm Security Administration
has been using this plan in some cases.
Tv,o other reconnnendations include better appraising and provision of small
rart-time or self-sufficing farms for those fai'mers who are unable to obtain
-avei-age-sized farms. Better appraising means more emphasis on the income-
producing ability of the land and less on what it will bring in the market.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Exhibit B
999
Table 1. — Estimated farm-mortgage debt and number of farm-mortgage fore-
closures in Iowa, 1913-38
[Iowa Agricultural Experiment Station]
Estimated
farm-mortgage
debt
Estimated
number of
farm-mort-
gage fore-
closures
Estimated
farm-mortgage
debt
Estimated
number of
farm-mort-
gage fore-
closures
Year, as of Jan. 1—
1915
200
190
110
170
110
150
790
1,9.50
1,875
2,260
2.325
2.100
2,300
Year asof Jan. 1— Con.
1928
1, 395, 000, 000
1, 350, 000, 000
1,310,000,000
1,280,000,000
1,190,000,000
1,020,000,000
9?0, 000, 000
810, 000, 000
770, 000, 000
740, 000. 000
720,000.000
710, 000, 000
1 875
1916
$685, 000, 000
760, 000, 000
865,000,000
960, 000, 000
1,070,000,000
1, 500, 000. 000
1,610,000,000
1, 600, 000, 000
1,620,000.000
1,605,000,000
1. 530. 000, 000
1,470,000,000
1929
1 500
1917
1930
1 500
1918
1931
3 400
1919
1932
6,400
3 700
1920
1933
1921
1934 _
4, 100
1922
1923
193.5
1936
2,000
1, 4.50
1924
1925
1926
1937
1938
1939
1,375
550
1927
Exhibit C
Table 2. — Estimated farm-mortgage debt of East and West North Central States,
1925-39 '
East North
Central ?
West North
Central ^
Total
Year, as of Jan. 1—
1925
$1, 939, 000, 000
1, 887, 000, 000
1, 855, 000, 000
1.881,000,000
1,918,000,000
1, 884, 000, 000
1, 819, 000, 000
1, 758, 000, 000
1, 658, 000, 000
1, 523, 000, 000
1, 535, 000, 000
1, 518, 000, 000
1, 471, 000. 000
1, 433, 000, 000
1, 409, 000, 000
$4, 278, 000, 000
4, 009, 000, 000
3, 808, 000, 000
3, 779, 000, 000
3. 735, 000, 000
3, 570, 000. 000
3, 474, 000, 000
3, 342, 000. 000
3, 082, 000, 000
2. 761, 000, 000
2. 694, 000, 000
2,611,000,000
2. 467, 000, 000
2, 376, 000, 000
2, 291, 000, 000
$6, 217, 000, 000
1926
5, 896, 000, 000
1927
1928
5, 663, 000, 000
5, 660, 000, 000
1929
5, 653, 000, 000
1930 . ..
5, 454, 000, 000
1931
5, 294, 000, 000
1932
1933
5,100,000,000
4, 740, 000, 000
1934
4, 284, 000, 000
1935
4, 229, 000, 000
1936 ..
4, 129, 000, 000
1937
3, 938, 000, 000
3, 809, 000, 000
3, 700, 000, 000
1938 ..
1939
1 From Agricultural Finance Review, U. S. Department of Agriculture, vol. 2, No. 2, November 1939.
2 States of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, and Wisconsin.
3 States of Minnesota, Iowa, Missouri. North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, and Kansas.
260370— 40— pt. 3 13
1000
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Exhibit D
Tabij; 3.
-Volitntarij sales and forced sales per 1,000 farms in East and West
North Central areas, 1926-39 '
Voluntary sales
Forced sales
East North
Central 2
West North
Central 2
East North
Central
West North
Central
Year ending Mar. i5:
1926 -
25.8
25.8
24.0
21.0
20.8
18.6
16.8
15.6
16.5
18.7
23.9
33.9
29.0
27.1
23.0
24.3
23.9
22.4
22.9
18.9
14.2
13.8
15.5
17.7
22.5
28.1
26.9
26.3
18.9
20.4
20.7
19.1
22.3
24.0
34.3
43.9
32.0
23.5
22.1
19.0
13.5
13.5
30 8
1927
32
1928
32.4
1929
25.9
1930 .
27.5
1931 -
31.3
1932
52.5
1933 . .
72.0
1934
50.9
1935
40.6
1936
38.0
1937
31.7
1938 -
27.0
1939'
26.9
1 From Farm Real Estate Situation, U. S. Department of Agriculture (Various circulars.)
' For States included, see table 2.
3 Preliminary.
Exhibit E
Table 4. — Farm-mortgage debt in Story County, Iowa, 1925-39 ^
Year as of Jan. 1:
1925
1930-.- -
1931
1932
1933
1934
1935
1936
1937
1938
1939
Number
of mort-
gages
2,396
2,064
2,043
1,984
1,947
1,805
1,860
1, 808
1,785
1,778
1,777
Total mort-
gage debt out-
standing
$23, 520, 000
19, 435. 000
18, 682. 000
17, 038, 000
16,115,000
14, 45S, 000
13, 729, 000
12, 900, 000
12, 464, 000
11, 902, 000
11,960,000
Land mort-
gaged as
percentage
of all land
Debt per
acre of land
mortgaged
$110
93
90
81
77
75
71
68
67
' For data prior to 1932, see Res. Bui. 156, Iowa Agricultural E.xperiment Station. Figures for 1932 are
revised.
Exhibit F
Table 5. — Mortgaged farms as percent of all farms according to tenure, 1935, in
selected areas '
Areas
Owner-
operated
farms
Tenant
or man-
ager op-
erated
farms
All
farms
Areas
Owner-
operated
farms
Tenant
or man-
ager op-
erated
farms
All
farms
United States
East North
Central
West North
Central _-.
Percent
41.5
45.1
54.7
Percent
25.1
23.0
25.2
Percent
34.5
38.4
42.0
Indiana
Illinois
Iowa
Nebraska
Percent
44.8
41.0
57.8
61.0
Percent
28.0
18.9
29.6
26.1
Percent
39.4
31.0
43.6
43.6
> From Farm Mortgage Indebtedness in the United States, cooperative survey, U. S. Department of
Commerce and U. S. Department of Agriculture, 1937.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Exhibit G
1001
Tabt-e 6. — Estimated percentage of oivner-operated farms mortgaged, 1920, 1930,
and 1936, for selected areas ^
Area
1920
1930
1935
Area
1920
1930
1935
United States
41.1
45.8
56.9
41.3
44.6
48.1
57.1
48.0
41.5
45.1
54.7
44.8
Illmois
42.6
59.1
56.6
44.0
60.9
61.0
41.0
57.8
We''t North Central
Nebraska
61.0
1 From Agricultural Finance Review, U. S. Department of Agriculture, vol. 1, No. 2, November 1938.
Exhibit L
Table 7. — Land holdings of corporations by type of corporation,^ 1933-39
Type of corporation
Acreage (000 omitted)
Percent of all farm land in
Iowa owned by corpora-
tions
1933
1935
1937
1939
1933
1935
1937
1939
1,343
536
76
256
332
145
2,044
499
129
276
317
166
2,510
388
189
253
290
181
2,752
347
232
253
241
219
3.9
1.6
.2
.85
1.0
.4
6.0
1.5
.4
.8
1.0
.4
7.4
1.1
.6
. 7
.9
.5
8.1
Deposit banks, open and closed
1.0
Federal land bank ^
.7
.7
Land, investment, and mortgage companies. .
Miscllaneous
.7
.7
Total
2,683
3,431
3,811
4,044
7.9
10.1
11.2
11.
' Data for 1933 center approximately on September, for all other years center on January.
2 Includes Land boJding.s of Federal Farm Mortgage Corporation.
Exhibit Q
Table 8. — Farm real estate: Estimated value per acre, in terms of pre-war acre-
age value, by selected areas. Mar. 1, 1920, 1930, 1935, 1940 '
Areas
1920
1930
1935
1940
Areas
1920
1930
1935
1940
United States.-
170
160
184
161
115
96
109
80
79
68
68
61
85
78
67
74
Illinois.. -
160
213
179
181
91
113
113
93
61
67
72
54
75
East North Central
Iowa... _ . .
74
West North Central
Nebraska.. .
65
Indiana ..
South Dakota
45
1 From press release, U. S. Department of Agriculture, Apr. 17, 19^0.
Exhibit R
Table 9. — Farms in loica classified according to size. Federal census, 1925, 1935
Size group
Number
Percentage
Size group
Number
Percentage
1925
1935
1925 1935
1925
1935
1925
1935
Under 20 acres
20 to 49 acres
60 to 99 acres
100 to 174 acres
175 to 2.59 acres
13,125
12, 593
34 528
86, 373
41,475
18, 812
13,813
34, 285
84, 917
42, 342
6.2
5.9
16.2
40.5
19.4
8.5
6.2
15.4
38.3
19.1
250 to 499 acres
500 to 999 acres
1,000 acres and over.
Total
23, 503
1,789
104
25, 619
2,047
151
11.0
.8
11.5
.9
.1
213, 490
221, 980
100.0
100.0
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM G. MUERAY— Resumed
Mr. Curtis. There are a few things about it I would like to make
some inqiiii'y on.
1002 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Murray. I will be glad to answer any questions you may wish
to ask.
FARM DEBT SITUATIOX
Mr. Curtis. You have discussed the situation with regard to farm
mortgages. We know there has been a decline in the total farm in-
debtedness from 1925 to 1939. To what do you attribute this decline?
Mr. Murray. The main reason is the cancelation of debt through
foreclosure and through the forced deeding over of land to creditors.
A large amount of the so-called debt reduction has actually been liqui-
dation, and has resulted in farm owners becoming farm tenants.
Mr. Curtis. Does that mean that fewer families or more families
are making their homes and securing their living from the land in
general ?
Mr. Murray, That in itself has very little to do with the number of
families that are making a living on farms. It has meant chiefly that
men who were farm owners are now farm tenants. Of course, farm
tenancy, as far as we can gather, in Iowa, and to some extent in the
Middle West, is not increasing. We will have to wait, however, to get
the 1940 census returns to be sure that our estimate is correct.
Mr. Curtis. Is the owner-operated land more frequently mortgaged
than the land of absentee owners?
Mr. IMuRRAY. Yes ; it is quite definitely so in practically all the areas
where we have made any investigation. It is also shown by all the
statistics of the Federal census and Department of Agriculture that
owner-operated farms are more frequently mortgaged. That is more
true now, because a great many of the absentee-owned farms are insur-
ance company. Federal land bank, and other creditor agency farms.
Mr. Curtis. Is the land occupied and farmed by tenants heavily
mortgaged, usually, or clear of mortgage?
Mr. Murray. It is more often clear of mortgage. If a farm is owned
by an absentee owner there is a greater chance of its being without a
mortgage than the other way around.
Mr. Curtis. That is especially true if it is corporately owned ?
Mr. Murray. Yes; and more especially in recent years since the
first-mortgage holders, such as the insurance companies, the Federal
Land Bank, and so forth, have had to take over a large amount of
land.
Mr. Curtis. This committee is studying the interstate migration of
destitute citizens. With respect to this farm owner and mortgage situa-
tion generally, what relation has that to keeping people on the farms,
and particularly the youth ?
Mr. Murray. The terrific personal tragedy resulting from the fore-
closure and the deeding over of land to mortgage holders has broken
home ties, and has made it much easier for people to give up their idea
of remaining in a community and becoming attached to the soil. We
find many young men who previously would have become farmers and
farm owners, and would have been interested in staying in the com-
munity, now feel otherwise, because they have seen their fathers lose
all that they had, because they did farm, and during the depression
the father w^as unable to hold on to the farm.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1003
PREVAILING TREND TO LARGER FARMS
Mr. Curtis. What does this situation that you have described have
to do with the trend toward hirger farms or smaller farms?
Mr. MiTRRAY. The debt situation itself has not contributed much to
the size of farms. The main factor which his disturbed the size of
farms is modern equipment and to some extent other minor functions
of technological improvement. The increase in the capacity of the
tractor, and modern equipment, makes it possible now for one man
to operate much more land than he did previously.
Mr. Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Murray. That has forced many farmers to increase the size of
their farms if they could. We find it quite common for a farmer on
160 acres to look around for a spare 40 or 80. or to pick up another
farm, so as to get enough additional land to make it profitable for him
to use this modern ec{uipment.
Mr. Curtis. That situation prevails in Iowa?
Mr. Murray. I think it also prevails in other States, such as the
State of Nebraska.
Mr. Curtis. The point I was coming to is this : It is more marked
when we come to the semiarid land?
Mr. Murray. That is correct.
Mr. Curtis. Because of the high cost of machinery and other things,
they must go into farming on a larger scale ?
Mr. Murray. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. I think you will also find — I wonder if you will agree
with me — that in the more semiarid land, when the mortgagee takes
this land over, if he has two or three farms and can locate one out-
standing tenant, he is more apt to rent all of that land to one person,
while before they were foreclosed, each one of them maintained a
farmer ?
Mr. Murray. That is correct.
Mr. Curtis. By diversifying the use of gardens and that sort of
thing it was possible for each one of them to maintain a farmer ?
Mr. Murray. Yes. I think there is good evidence on that which
bears out your point. As you go through some of the Great Plains
area, and also even in Iowa, you will find abandoned farmsteads, but
not abandoned land. The farmsteads are abandoned because, as you
suggest, some of the better tenants with modern machinery are farming
this land which was previously farmed by three or four tenants. It
is now being farmed by one or two.
Mr. Curtis. I have observed from the census reports that some of
the counties in my district have lost 25 percent of their population.
They were farming counties.
Mr. Murray. Yes.
JNIr. Curtis. Is it true that the Extension Service has issued pub-
licity material in Iowa encouraging farm units of 250 acres or more?
Mr. Murray. I have no knowledge that we have advocated units
of that size. We have pointed out the fact that farms are working out
in two different directions. We are having more small farms, and also
more large farms, but the general average, however, is staying about
]^QQ4 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
the same. People refer to the 160-acre farm as the average. That has
been true, and still is true.
The thing that is going on, but is not seen by many people is
that some farmers are being forced out, and in the process of being
forced out are not going to larger farms. They are forced to get
a small acreage around some town, the result being that our census
statistics reveal more small farms and more large farms. It means in
the process someone is being forced out.
Mr. Curtis. With respect to these small farms, are they large
enough to provide complete income for a family?
Mr. Murray. I would hesitate to say they provide a complete in-
come. They are probably a part-time self-sufficient type of farm,
in many instances.
Mr. Curtis. Where are these people going that formerly lived in
these farmsteads? Have you made any observation of that?
Mr. Murray. We have not followed any of them around. At least,
I have not seen any studies made where they have followed these
people who have left these farms. We hear that they go different
places. Some of them go West. Some go South. Some of them
go to towns nearby.
Mr. Curtis. I see.
JVIr. Murray. They are moving, however. They are not stable.
Mr. Curtis. Now, you have not only analyzed the situation for the
committee, but you have made some definite and concrete suggestions
of remedy.
Mr. Murray. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. What are those suggestions?
NEED for return OF INDIVIDUAL FARM OWNERSHIP
Mr. Murray. We feel that the first problem that must be tackled
is that of the man who lost the farm and is now a tenant, and as
a tenant is not a stable part of the community, we feel we need
to reprovide him with a part in ownership, not only he himself, but
his son and others of the family.
We feel that the efforts made by the creditor agencies are only
a beginning. With the opportunity they have, with large numbers
of farms, both private agencies, such as insurance companies and
Federal agencies, like the Farm Credit Administration, and Federal
land banks, have a wonderful opportunity to set up these previous
owners as new ow^ners, if they can find these men and give them
a contract.
Many of them have not the necessary funds, but many of them
could buy farms now for half of what they paid for the farms they
owned 15 or 20 years ago. If some of these private agencies would
make an aggressive campaign to sell on a contract basis with a small
amount down, a large part of this problem would be avoided, and
I think a number of people Mdio now have very little hesitation about
moving from one place to another in the hope of finding greener
pastures would find that green pasture right at home, if there were
more energy put in to make it a possibility for them to have their
home there.
I
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1005
Mr. Curtis. How do you think the Federal Land Bank should dis-
pose of the hind it has taken over^
Mr. Murray. The Federal Land Bank in our area has made a very
intensive campaign, and, according to the latest reports, have been
very successful in selling farms on contract. Their down payment
may be a question of whether it is as much as it should be. It is
interesting that the Farm Security Administration is going probably
a step further than the Federal land bank, and wisely so, in my opin-
ion, although there is a difference of opinion as to how much a man
should have to pay down ; but it is interesting to note that the Federal
land bank has made more headway than some of the private agencies.
We are interested, when insurance companies, who own farms, come
into the State, in asking them, ^'Why don't you take some of your farms
and make contracts with your tenants, if they are good ones, for owner-
ship? When you get a man on there who thinks he is going to own
that farm some day, he is going to do a better job, and take better care
of it than when he realizes that any day he might get a notice that the
farm is sold and he has to move off. Where is he going to move?"
SUGGESTIONS FOR IMPROVEMENT OF FEDERAL FARM AID
Mr. Curtis. You make some distinction between a tenant purchas-
ing a farm through the Farm Security Administration and the Federal
Land Bank. Which seems to be the more practical and the better-
working method where you have observed it ?
Mr. Murray. I think there is no reason for the distinction between
the two agencies, but I do feel that there should be more cooperation,
and that many of the farms which the Federal Land Bank owns could
be taken over by the Farm Security Administration and set up on the
basis of a tenant-purchase contract to help the tenants, in many cases, to
get farms.
It seems to me that the bottleneck in our re-ownership campaign is
largely a question of funds in the Farm Security Administration.
Every time the Farm Security Administration wants to set a farm up,
or set a farmer up on a farm, they have to get a complete appropriation
from Congress for the entire purchase price of the farm. It does not
seem to us reasonable that that should be true. It seems reasonable
to us that the Federal Land Bank, or Federal Land Bank Commis-
sioner could either provide farms which it owns, or at least could
provide a large part of the money necessary to purchase the farm, so
the tenant purchasing the farm under the Farm Security Administra-
tion would get a loan through the land bank, which would make the
tenant purchase funds go two or three times further than they are
going today.
Mr. Curtis. In other words, instead of a money appropriation by
Congress to buy farms, use the farms that another Government agency
already has and, by an appropriate interchange of securities and so
forth, let the Farm Security Administration sell them ?
Mr. Murray. That is right.
Mr. Sparkman. I wonder if I might interrupt right there ?
Mr. Curtis. Yes.
IQQQ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Murray, I wonder if you are familiar with the
Peterson bill that has been pending in Congress for some time and
came up in the House last week for action ? I assume it passed. I do
not know.
Mr. OsMERs. It was not passed. It was defeated.
Mr. Murray. I am not acquainted with that bill. I will look it up.
Mr. Sparkman. You might be interested in looking it up. Without
trying to give you the details I might say that it is really aiming in
the direction you mentioned.
Mr. OsMERS. I think one of the reasons — now that the Peterson bill
has been mentioned in the record of the committee — one of the reasons
why the bill was not favorably acted upon by the House was, it was
felt in a period of years the amount of money involved would run into
billions and billions of dollars. That was the fact that prompted its
defeat in Congress.
Mr. Curtis. The Farm Security present set-up for selling farms
provides more liberal terms than the Federal Land Bank?
Mr. Murray. That is correct.
Mr. Curtis. What about the rate of interest?
Mr. Murray. The rate of interest is also more favorable if a man
is selected through the farm-tenant purchase program of the Farm
Security Administration.
Mr. Curtis. Here is a very jjractical situation we meet : The present
set-up of the Farm Security Administration in my State provides for
the purchase of one farm in each county, approximately, for some
tenant. Rate of interest, I believe, is 3 percent.
Mr. Murray. That is correct — plus an amortization charge.
Mr. Curtis. Yes.
Mr. Murray. Which brings it to about 41/0 percent.
Mr. Curtis. We have one Government agency picking out one
farmer in a caanty and giving him very liberal terms and another
Government agency foreclosing upon his neighbors who are facing
harsher terms. It has made a rather unsatisfactory arrangement.
Mr. Murray. That is true.
Mr. Curtis. I think your suggestion has great value and should be
definitely considered. Are there any other suggestions you have to
make, other than liberalization and working together of the Federal
Land Bank, Federal Land Bank Commissioner, and the Farm Security
Administration ?
Mr. Murray. In addition to that, it seems to me that there is a move
on now to make more provisions in the loans and in the arrangements
for ownership in areas like the Great Plains and parts of the Middle
West where the income each year is so variable. The previous con-
tracts that have been set up by the Federal Land Bank have been
unsatisfactory. One reason. I think, why we have had as much fore-
closure and other types of distress as we have had has been because
our loan provisions and our whole debt structure was made on a
national basis rather than a regional basis.
There is one difficulty with the Farm Security Administration and
the insurance companies. They have always felt they have been better
off to have a contract which specified payment on October 1 of a
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1007
definite number of dollars, rather than to have a contract that provided
for a certain payment in terms of the crop raised. They insist npon
those contracts callinfj for a fixed payment, but they are not nearly
as secure, if they only knew it, as if they had had contracts which
provided for a portion of the crop.
Mr. Curtis. In lean years the farmer would have less than he would
have to pay ?
Mr. INIuRRAT. That is correct.
Mr. Curtis. In years of good crops he would be reducing his debt
more ?
Mr, Murray. That is correct. In the surplus year, the year of
good crops or good prices, it is reasonable that the man can pay and
should pay more. I3ut we have cases on file where insurance com-
panies refused to accept payment in a surplus year because they w^ere
worried as to what to do with the funds. Later on they would have
been very anxious to have gotten those same funds.
Mr. Curtis. By making that in crop units, such as bushels or tons,
and so forth, that he pays, you would cushion the owner against a very
low price?
Mr. Murray. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. In bad years?
Mr. jNIurray. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. You also give the mortgagee the benefit of high prices
in good years ?
Mr. Murray. That is correct. I would like to also say that the Farm
Security Administration, as I understand it, is making definite prog-
ress along these lines in areas in which some such arrangement would
be helpful.
Mr. Curtis. Have you any further suggestions ?
RE^^SION or valuation of farms
Mr. Murray. There are one or two other suggestions. There is one
suggestion with respect to the valuation of farms. We can notice a
great deal of improvement in our State, those of us who have been
studying the problem at the experiment station, in the way in which
the lending agencies have been appraising farms. They are becoming
more conscious that the farmer cannot pay enough if he does not
have income, and in the process of valuation in the future, more
emphasis is being placed on income, and wisely so. If you are going
to make a loan out in Nebraska, western Iowa, certain parts of Minne-
sota or South Dakota, the income of the farmer, the fact that it varies,
and also its amount, are the important things to consider, and not just
what a man paid for a farm.
We feel that is a definite step in advance that has happened in the
last 5 or 6 years. I might say in connection with contracts, some of
the local insurance companies — insurance companies whose home offices
are in the Middle West — worked out plans for selling farms to tenants
on a small dow^n payment, and these companies have been far in
advance of those companies whose head offices are back East. It is
largely because of the fact that the companies back East do not realize
2008 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
yet tlie problem that exists in tlie Middle West and the Great Plains
area.
Mr. Curtis. They are further removed from their investment?
Mr. Murray. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Do you feel that the Federal Land Bank should resell
the farm, the same farm, to the same man they foreclosed upon ?
Mr. Murray. That is a problem which the Farm Security Admin-
istration will have a good deal of difficulty in handling. So many
times the farmer who owned the farm is now older, or is not inter-
ested ; but in many cases I believe they are making an attempt to find
and give the owner a chance to repurchase that farm. I know of one
farmer in Nebraska, by the way, who did not want to repurchase his
old farm. He wanted to purchase another farm. That is a problem,
of course, of Federal Land Bank policy, which we do not feel we are
competent to make a recommendation on, although we do think the
general policy that the Federal Land Bank is adopting is sound — of
trying to get the farms out on contract to farmers.
Mr. Curtis. Insofar as age, health, and general attitude would per-
mit, you would say the Federal Land Bank should go just as far as
possible in giving the individual who had lived on the farm many
years and who had to fight to save it, the same advantage of protection
as they would a stranger ?
Mr. Murray. Yes.
mechaxizatiox
Mr. Curtis. With regard to mechanized farming, have you any sug-
gestion with respect to that?
Mr. Murray. That is a problem which is very serious. The manu-
facturers in some cases are meeting the issue, trying to help by produc-
ing smaller tractors, baby tractors, to fit the size of the farms. We
cannot very well stop progi'ess. Wliat we have to do is to keep our
plants going at economic size, if possible, and make arrangements for
those who are unable to meet the competitive struggle on the size
which tends to be most profitable.
Mr. Curtis. During good times there is a tendency for the farmer,
when he abandons the horse and goes to the tractor, to at the same
time abandon his milk cows, chickens, and the family garden, perhaps,
and not live on the land. Is not that true ?
Mr. Murray. I would not be able to speak so much with respect to
that, because we have not made any survey of that particular type of
activity. We do know, of course, there is less of the self-sufficiency
on the farm than there used to be. We are raising less oats and more
soy beans. We are raising more things for market and producing
fewer things for the household. That again is the development of the
country in terms of making more efficient certain types of specialized
farming.
Mr. Curtis. I think, Mr. Murray, you have made a very valuable
contribution to our Nation-wide study. I think it is well to bear in
mind that we have not begun to exhaust the possibilities of the State
legislature in dealing with farm ownership. The title to real estate
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1009
IS a matter of State government. They define what a deed is, a con-
tract, and a mortgage. They have vast and unused powers over legal
ownership of farm land by corporations.
Mr. Murray. That is true.
Mr. Curtis. I think some of the States in the future are going to
give some attention to that. It is a national problem. You have
made a very valuable contribution, for which we thank you. That
is all I have.
Mr. Parsons. Do any of the other members of the committee have
a question?
INSURANCE COMPANIES AND FARM OWNERSHIP
Mr. OsMERS. I would like to ask a question. You testified, Mr.
Murray, about private agencies controlling a good deal of these
farms that have been foreclosed.
Mr. ^Murray. Yes,
Mr. OsMERS. I presume you mean insurance companies, large and
small, and banks?
Mr. Murray. That is correct.
Mr. OsMERs. Are there any other groups?
My. ^Iurhay. Mortgage companies.
Mr. OsMERS. IMortgage companies?
Mr. Murray. Yes. There are also some educational institutions
who have loaned mone}^ on farms and unfortunately found that they
had them on their hands.
Mr. OsMERS. You have made what I consider some extremelj'^ valu-
able suggestions as to the way the Federal Government can straighten
out their procedure with respect to the Federal Land Bank problem.
Is it not possible to form some kind of a conference of the so-called
private agencies, some sort of group, so they can in turn also adopt a
policy which would meet with local conditions, such as you say a few
small middle western insurance companies are tr3nng to do?
Mr. ^Murray. I think you have made an excellent point. At one
time during tlie last few years we actually made the suggestion from
the experiment station on the basis of our records that the insurance
companies get together and plan some way of getting this land back
into tlie hands of the owner-operators. Because they were not doing
it was one reason why the Federal Land Bank and Farm Security
Administration were having to do it.
The insurance companies owned approximately, as of Januaiy 1,
1939, 8 percent of the whole State of Iowa. It was concentrated in
few enough companies so they could easily have gotten together and
said, "We have that responsibility of getting this land back into
the hands of the owner-operators," but they did not do anything.
Each one followed a course of his own. The result has been that
some of the companies have done a fine job, a few of them, particu-
larly our middle western companies; and some of the eastern com-
panies have not awakened yet to that responsibility, or possibility.
Mr. OsMERs. I come from way back East. I know that our insur-
ance companies, however large or small, have no desire to own farms
in the Middle West, because that is not their function at all.
JQIQ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
j\Ir, Murray. Yes.
ISIr. OsMERS. From what yon say, they have been doino; a pretty
poor job with their farm ownership.
Mr. Murray. I wonld not want to say they have been doinfj a poor
job with their farm ownership. Mr. Cono^ressman. They have been
waking np slowly to the problem they have. The insurance com-
missioner in the State of Iowa has helped to w-ake them up by saying
he will not renew their licenses unless they make a satisfactory show-
ing that thev are getting rid of these farms. That is speeding up
the process.
Mr. OsMERS. I think the sooner some set of rules is adopted whereby
the farmer that has been either removed from his farm, or reduced
to the status of a tenant farmer, will know that if he meets certain
requirements he can move back onto the farm, let us say under some
such arrangement as the F. H. A. where a 10 percent down payment
is made, with amortization over a period of years — I am not neces-
sarily saying we should adopt that particular procedure — but do you
not feel it would go a long way toward solving the problem, if these
people were joined together in some sort of organization and had
a policy with respect to all of their properties, and if they could
make that ]3olicy somewhat parallel to the Federal Government's
policy with Federal Land Bank properties, you would actually see a
liquidation of the problem?
Mr. Murray. I think you would, and I think you would also help
out this migration problem to this extent, that very many of the
tenant farmers on these insurance-company farms have no idea when
they are going to get a notice that they cannot remain on the farm.
Any year they may have to move off.
Mr. OsMERs. I think your situation in Iowa and through neighbor-
ing States is one of the most important sources of migration of des-
titute citizens. I think you have offered some extremely valuable tes-
timony here, which goes to the very root of the problem. Now, are
there at the present time any efforts being made to join these private
agencies together and to form some sort of conference? Is there any-
thing being clone in that direction, or is there anyone in that field who
is assuming the problem of leadership to call them together, or their
representatives ?
Mr. Murray. There is a farm-mortgage conference of a number of
insurance com]:)anies — the larger group. As I understand it, they
have never tackled the problem and provided uniform handling, or
developed a policy which would bring about improved conditions in
this field.
Mr. OsMERS. Would you say it might be advisable for all of these
private agencies to get together and pool all of their farms together,
set up a corporation, exchange the stock of that corporation for the
present farm ownership in their portfolios, and then go ahead as a
single unit to tackle and liquidate this problem?
Mr. Murray. That might be desirable, although it would be diffi-
cult, because these insurance companies disagree on so many things.
The lawyers of each company will have a different slant on what they
can or cannot do. However, we do know this: They could all get
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1011
lofrether on a general policy and exchaiin:e information on a general
policy and ]^robably if they came ont here and saw what some of the
middle western companies were doin^^, they wonld come closer to
solving our problem.
Mr. Curtis. Let me ask one question, right at that point.
Mr. OsMERS. Surely.
Mr. Curtis. Would it not be a very desirable step if they adopted a
policy of having qualified agricultural experts as their field men and
gavethem c(Hisiderable leeway in the way of recommendations?
Mr. Murray. Your last statement was particularly appropriate,
the question of allowing some leeway. We have often heard the corn-
plaint or heard the criticism that they could not build a fence until
they wired back to New York, and by the time they got the wire to
New York, the fence would either have to be fixed, or the cattle would
have taken all that was left in the field.
jSlr, Curtis. But it is true that the agricultural agent, we will call
him, employed by the mortgage company in many instances is render-
ing a fine service, not only to the farmer, but to his company?
INIr. Murray. That is correct. We will go a long way in solving the
problem if. every time they put a tenant on the farm, they put the
tenant on the farm with the idea in the mind of the tenant that if he
makes good, he is going to buy that farm.
Mr. Curtis. And also supervise him and advise him as to better
methods of farming?
]Mr. Murray. That is correct. There are a number of our graduates,
graduates of our institution who are doing the job. The only difficulty
they have is, they have so many farms to manage, they cannot do very
much.
decreasing agricultural population
Mr. OsMERs. I have one more question. With the increased indus-
trialization of agricultural activities, do you feel that as a nation we are
heading toward a smaller farm population or not?
Mr, Murray. I would carry my answer to that through the previous
analysis, that our population may stay the same, but we will have more
of the subsistence part-time group getting jobs from industry during
part of the year and doing a little farming the other part of the year,
and fewer of the so-called family farms of the average size. They will
grow larger, so there will be less of those, but there will be more of the
other.
Mr. OsMERS. But with respect to the proportion of population en-
gaged solely in agriculture, there will be a smaller number as time goes
on and industrialization increases?
Mr. Murray. I would say yes.
Mr. OsMERS. Thank you.
Mr. Murray. I might add for the record that my recommendations
that I have made would hardly be classed as the result of my work,
necessarily, nor would they represent the recommendations of the
experiment station, but would represent, rather, my own generaliza-
tions from the data which I gathered as a representative of the experi-
ment station.
Mr. OsMERS. That is all I have.
2Q]^2 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
FARM PRICES AND PRICE FIXING POLICY
Mr. Parsons. Professor, if we had some way of bringing to the
farmer a much higher price for his procUict, that would take people
back to the soil, would it not ?
Mr. Murray. Yes; it would. It might, however, if prices were too
high result in too much scrambling to buy farms, but we see nothing
of that kind yet.
Mr. Parsons. There was something of that during the World War
period when wheat was $2.25 a bushel and corn was $1.50. The bankers
went out and went into the farming business. We had lots of agricul-
turalists, but there were not very many experts.
Mr. Murray. That is true.
Mr. Parsons. Do you believe the so-called parity price is sufficient
for farm commodities based on the 1909-13 level?
Mr. Murray. It will make it possible for most of the farmers who
are now equipped with machinery to meet present conditions. The
only difficulty is, the parity price does not help the wheat farmer in
western Iowa or in Nebraska or South Dakota. He does not have any
crop.
Mr. Parsons. That is right.
Mr. Murray. It does not help to meet his fixed interest payment or
fixed principal payment.
Mr. Parsons. But if the parity price was increased 15 percent for
farm commodities of the 1909-13 average, then farming would begin
to be slightly profitable, would it not ?
Mr. Murray. It would be very profitable for many farmers on the
top.
Mr. Parsons. Do you believe in trying to fix the price of farm com-
modities ?
Mr. Murray. That is a question that is out of my sphere, as far as
any data I have is concerned. I would say the fixing of prices of com-
modities is very difficult, but the present program of controlling pro-
duction along with the semiprice fixing of the price loan which we
make, like 57 cents a bushel on corn, is a step in advance of the old
Farm Board plan of making a loan without any control of production.
To set a price without any control might be fatal ; unless you had some
kind of zoning, they would open up new areas and the market would be
flooded with additional produce.
Mr. Parsons. If we were so minded to adopt strict policies in this
country as they adopt them in other places, we could regulate prices ?
Mr. Murray. That is correct.
Mr. Parsons. And regulate production ?
Mr. Murray. That is right.
Mr, Parsons. But we would be destroying what a lot of folks call
"freedom" or "liberty" ?
Mr. Murray. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. But the individual would be a lot better off if it were
done in the case of agricultural production, would he not ?
Mr. Murray. He would be.
Mr. Parsons. He would be better off ?
INTERSTAT^E MIGRATION 1013
Mr. Murray. If he had higher prices, and other farmers' production
Avas controlled ; yes.
Mr. Parsons. But he would kick about it terribly, would he not ?
Mr. Murray. Yes ; he would. They even kick to me.
Mr. Parsons. The trouble with America is, it has too many liberties,
and a little too much democracy.
Mr. Murray. Well, we hate to give up any of it.
Mr. Parsons. That is right. The manufacturer always controls
his price, though, pretty well, does he not ?
Mr. Murray. He controls his price, but he does not take care of his
unemployment problem.
Mr. Parsons. All the automobiles run in certain classes, with three
big concerns. Their prices are always set. If they manufactured
three times as many automobiles as the country nedecl, you could buy
a Ford for $150?
Mr. Murray. That is right. That would take care of the unem-
ployment problem. But they prefer to leave the unemployment prob-
lem to make a problem such as your committee is faced with today.
Mr. Parsons. Practically all commercial prices are set and main-
tained from one year to another, but not with agriculture. That is
what is the matter with agriculture. We could put people back to
the farms if it was profitable.
Mr. OsMERS. I think one reason — I would like to ask Mr. Murray's
opinion on this — I think in your manufacturing operations you find
a great many more factors present than you do in farming. In farm-
ing you have fewer costs, principally taxes and labor, while in the
manufacturing operations in addition to much higher taxes and an
entirely different labor set-up, you have other factors such as distribu-
tion, sales expense, overhead, clerical help, stockholders, and a great
many other things to consider, and, of course, the purchase of raw
materials.
What is your opinion with reference to that. Professor Murray?
Mr. Murray. I look at it this way: The industrial problem is
largely what you suggest, with unemployment as its big problem.
Agriculture has as its big problem not unemployment, because every
farmer who has a farm, or is a tenant, has a job, but the price problem.
Mr. Parsons. Whereas industry does not have the price problem,
but it does have the unemployment problem and distribution problem?
Mr. Murray. It is principally a problem of distribution. If they
cannot get distribution, they cannot employ their men.
Mr. Parsons. If we had higher than parity price for agricultural
commodities, that in itself would raise the earning power of the farm
population, and they would buy a lot more things from the city.
Mr. Murray. If you could have high prices for farm products
and low prices for everything else, it would be fine for the farmer.
Mr. Curtis. Let the record show that I support both theories.
Mr. Sparkman. It would not do any good to authorize parity pay-
ments unless we raised the money to pay them, would it ?
Mr. MuTiRAY. That is correct. It has to come from some place.
1014 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
FARM PRODUCTION IN RELATION TO PRICES
Mr. OsMERs. While we are spending a moment here on broad poli-
cies, do you believe in the so-called policy of controlled production,
what has been referred to as the policy of scarcity, or do you believe
in wider production and greater consumption at lower prices?
Mr. Murray. I subscribe to the last view if we can provide for that
without having problems such as unemployment and otiier things
which w^ould mean that the Government would have to step in. The
difficulty is, we have depressions as a result of allowing uncontrolled
production. What we have to say is that since we cannot allow
things to go on without regulation, we cannot step out here and say
we are going to help prices in any industry unless we have, not
scarcity, but controlled production. If we raise the price of corn or
the price of wheat, we must keep from having other people produce
such a terrific surplus that it just rots, and the surplus rots on our
hands.
Mr. OsMERS. Certainly we have found in the United States, that
during periods of our greatest production — let us take agricultural
commodities, because we are dealing with that for the moment — we
have had more starvation and more substandard eating conditions in
the United States than at any other time in our history?
Mr. Murray. That has partly been responsible because of the dis-
tribution. I think the food stamp plan which has come in has been
an effort to meet that criticism. We have got the food, and we have
got the people who need it.
Mr. OsMERS. I really think the Government should lend itself to
some plan, instead of destroying and controlling this great agri-
cultural surplus, when people are — I will not say starving, but great-
ly in need; some system should be developed. The food stamp plan
has its good points and its bad points. It is a step in the right di-
rection. Of course, people engaged in industrial activities feel that
their great future lies in producing more and more through better
methods at lower prices and with increased wages, and it has always
been worked that way.
Mr. Murray. We feel the same is true in agriculture, but we feel
this way : Until we can get a situation that will make that profitable,
in the interim, this price raising and control was necessarj^
EFFECT OF FOREIGN TRADE POLICY OK FARMERS
Mr. OsMERS. Just one more question along that line: What has
been the effect of the foreign trade policy of this country upon the
farmers of Iowa?
Mr. Murray. The foreign trade policy?
Mr. OsMERS. Yes; reciprocal trade policies with other nations with
respect to agricultural commodities.
Mr. MuFRAY. It has helped a small amount. We are definitely
interested in foreign trade, because we produce lots of lard. We
would like to see more trade, because it means that we will have
better prices for hogs, our principal means of income.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1015
Mr. OsMERS. Has any specific trade airreement tliat has been entered
into by this Government aided the exporting of agricukural products
from the State of Iowa i
Mr. Murray. I believe it has. I believe there was an agreement with
Cuba — I am not sure of this — but there was a re})ort prepared by the
Farm Bureau Federation, to which Dr. Schultz in our department
contributed, and the conclusion was it had helj:)ed a small amount.
Mr. OsMERS. You produce some corn in Iowa, do you not ?
Mr. Murray. That is correct.
Mr. OsMERS. I could cite an instance where one of these agreements,
namely, the one with the Netherlands, will allow the importation of
the sago root on the free list, which has caused considerable misery
to the corn farmers of Iowa, It has permitted an increase in the im-
portation of that product from 2,000,000 pounds a year at the begin-
ning of the program to 450,000,000 pounds a year at the present time.
That will not do the Iowa farmer much good.
Mr. Murray. That is correct, although we feel this way : We cannot
look at one phase of the reciprocal-trade agreement. We have to look
at getting our lard out, and sometimes to get our lard out, we have to
give a little some other place. We cannot always increase our selling,
unless there is some increase in our buying. We do not want to have
it hit us. of course.
Mr. OsMERS. There is a lot to be said for reciprocal trade. Recipro-
cal trade is like good weather. It is a fine thing. It has seemed that
the total net effect of the reciprocal-trade policy has been to allow for
the importation of greater quantities of agricultural commodities and
the exportation of an increasing volume of manufacured goods such
as automobiles, taking them as one example.
Mr. Murray. I would not be able to comment on that. I really
Avould not be able to comment very much on that.
Mr. OsMERS. The figures speak for tliemselves.
Mr. Murray. I can see your point. There is a problem there.
Mr. Parsons. The importation of farm commodities into the United
States is such a tiny portion of the total consumption, that after all
it does not amount to a great deal. Our clomesic trade is from 88 to 92
percent of the total, but it is that 6- to 12-percent export from which
we really get the net profit from other people brought to the United
States converted into dollars, out of the soil and out of the mines and
out of the air.
Those three things form the basis for everything we have. It is
from that top part, that last 6 percent that we export, that we really
make a profit for the American people. Now, the importation of a
few commodities is such t\ small, tiny fraction of the total consumption
in the United States, that while it looks large when it is enumerated
in pounds or bushels, when it comes to the total consumption, it
amounts to practically nothing. Are there any other questions?
Mr. Curtis. Mr. Murray, I think you have made a very valuable
contribution. I would not feel discouraged if I were you, because you
cannot get this committee to agree on tariff and reciprocal-trade
agreements. I will extend my speech in the record.
Mr. Parson. Is there anything further?
260370—40 — pt. 3 14
1016
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Sparkman. I do not want to enter into any discussion of
reciprocal-trade agreements which, I believe, both Presidential can-
didates have endorsed. I do want to ask one question, as far as the
farm-migrant problem is concerned, and that is what we are particu-
larly concerned with. Your \vhole argument is that the proper relief is
to give as many as possible a land tenure that will root them to the
soil; is that correct?
Mr. Murray. Yes ; either through long lease or ownershi]) ; you are
right.
.Mr. Sparkman. Some interest in the soil that will hold them there?
Mr. Murray. That is correct.
Mr. Sparkman. Thank you.
Mr. Parsons. Thank you very much, Mr. Murray.
(Wliereupon, Mr. Murray was excused.)
TESTIMONY OF JOHN HART AND ANNA HART
Mr. Parsons. The next witnesses will be Mr. and Mrs. Hart. Will
you state your full name and address for the record, please, Mr. Hart.
Mr. Hart. John Hart, Whiteland, Ind., Rural Route 1.
Mr. Parsons. State your name for the record, please, and your
address, Mrs. Hart.
Mrs. Hart. Anna Hart, Rural Route 1. Whiteland, Ind.
Mr. Parsons. How long have you been in Indiana?
Mr. Hart. Off and on for 15 years.
Mr. Parsons. Where were you born?
Mr. Hart. Zanesville, Ohio.
Mr. Parsons. Wliere were vou born, Mrs. Hart?
Mrs. Hart. Philadelphia, Pa.
Mr. Parsons. From the record we have here, it is my understanding
you started migrating some 10 or 12 years ago ?
Mr. Hart. That is right.
Mr. Parsons. Where have you been ? In what States have you been ?
Just tell the story of your life, the last of 10 or 11 years since you have
been migrating.
Mr. Hart. Well, we were farming in Bourbon, Ind. We lost the
farm through the poor onion crop and Jew prices. We had $2,400 to
pay, as the balance, and we couldn't pay it, so we lost the farm.
Mr. Parsons. That was when — 11 or 12 years ago?
Mr. Hart. Eleven years ago.
Mr. Parsons. How large a farm was it?
Mr. Hart. Around 40 acres.
Mr. Parsons. Who held the mortgage?
Mr. Hart. Jim Macknich.
Mr. Parsons. He was the local banker?
Mr. Hart. That is correct.
Mr. Parsons. The price of onions, of course, was very low ?
Mr. Hart. The price of onions dropped from $2.50 a hundred to
75 cents per hundred. It didn't pay the labor on the onions at all.
Mr. Parsons. Then you left that place?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1017
Mr. Hart. Then we left that place, and we started running around,
trvins to find work. We went to Ohio and West Virginia. We was
selling post cards, needles, and stuff like that to make a living, all over
the country.
Mr. Parsons, Yes.
Mr. Hart. We came to Illinois. T got 2 or 3 weeks down here at the
mill. Then they shut down. They throwed us out again.
Mr. Parsons. I understand you were in Ohio.
I\Ir. Hart. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. What region were you in there ? Tell us of your expe-
riences there.
EXPERIENCE AS SHARE-CROPPER ON CORPORATE FARM IN OHIO
Mr. Hart. That was the Ohio Farms Co., Willard, Ohio. We were
there. She found a piece in the newspaper when we were on the
road. They wanted to sell farms. Half of the year's crop was to
go to you, and the other half was to go to the company, the Ohio
Farms Co.
Mr. Parsons. For furnishing everything?
Mr. Hart. For furnishing everything. They furnished a little
four-room house, kind of a chicken-coop-like affair, only it was new.
They furnished grub, up until the crop was ready to harvest. When
the crop was ready to harvest, they shut down the commissary. They
shut down everything, all over the country, so you couldn't get noth-
ing to eat. so they could take the farm away from you. There was
77 families on the farm at the time. She and me had the only car
that was in running order. They were putting all the rest of them
on the bum. She went out abegging milk for the babies and food for
them.
I went to Frank Britton, general manager of the farm. He was field
manager. I told him I was going to take my stuff out of there and
sell it, because they was stealing it.
Mr, Parsons, Who was stealing it?
Mr, Hart, I don't know. It was somebody the company had. We
couldn't catch them. We had to do guard duty at night to keep them
out of our onions. We would harvest 20 or 25 bushels a day. We
would stack them up in crates, and we would go over there the next
morning and they would be gone. We had a big search on the farm,
trying to find out who did it, but we couldn't. We finally had to take
these onions and hide them from the men on the farm. Then we had
to do guard duty with shotguns. That stopped them.
They shut down the commissary, and then they unscrewed the pumps,
the top of the pumps, so we couldn't get no Avater, They was trying to
starve us out, so they could get our crop. I told Britton, "You put them
pumps back," He wouldn't do it. We got the crowd together and told
them what they was doing to us. They tacked a receivership, a friendly
receivership, on each and every one of them little houses and forbid the
people to go out in their own land and harvest the crop.
I said they would have to give us our rights or we would have them
arrested. They wouldn't, so I goes to Norwalk, Ohio, and files suit,
me and two of the other boys. They brought Arthur A, Willoughby.
]^Q]^§ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
They had him arrested and broiijyht him over to court. When Arthur
A. Willoug:hby got up there, he di(hi"t waiit to go through court.
Judge Carpenter said Willoughby Avas ready to square up with us,
with the three of us, and give us our rights.
Then they sent a bunch of niggers down in there to ])ick my beans. I
had to take a shotgun and threaten to shoot them, to keep them out of
tlie beans. We were picking them beans to take them to market. They
came in there and started to pick the beans. They stole everything
from everybody on the farm, but us three fellows. The law gave us
tlie right to harvest our crop, our half, and we took it over to Cincin-
nati, Ohio — I mean Cleveland, Ohio, to sell it.
Mr. Parsons. After that experience, you did not stay with them but
the 1 year ?
Mr. Hart. That is all, 1 year. We stayed there until March. During
the time we stayed there, we got enough money out of our crop to carry
us through until March. The county man there that had the poor
farm, named Clay, he turns around, and he w^ouldn't feed nobody. He
wouldn't give nobody nothing to eat. There they all was, children
being wrapped up in coffee sacks — using coffee sacks for clothes. There
were 77 families. She went out with our car and begged milk and food
among the farmers, to feed the children.
Mr. Parsons. How many children did you have ?
Mr. Hart. I have my two children. It went on like that. They
threatened to kill us if we didn't leave, but we stayed. One night they
came up, two or three of them guys came up. I happened to be out get-
ting some tobacco
Mrs. Hart. I believe I would like to tell that part of it, John.
Mr. Hart. All right.
Mrs. Hart. I believe I know that better than 3'ou do.
Mr. Hart. Go ahead.
Mr. Parsons. You may proceed. We will be glad to have you tell it.
]Mrs. Hart. John had never gone away from home after dark. This
niglit he ran out of cigarettes. He said he was going out somewhere
on the farm and find a cigarette. About 8 : 30 that night Mrs. Britton,
the field manager's wife, came upstairs with their young baby to visit
with me. We lived in the upper flat, and they lived downstairs.
Frank Britton had taken a liking to us and had told us to take
his upper flat, you know, off of the marshes, in the fall. He said
that he was supposed to take over the place, Mr. Willoughby's place,
in the spring and he would put John in Frank Britton's place as field
manager, because he had done all the planning and supervising and
understood the work.
kShe came upstairs. She was kind of nervous. I said, "What is
the matter w'ith you tonight?" She said, "Well, I am going to tell
you. They are coming here to murder you people ttmight." "Well,"
I said, "I have begged for these people and fed these people, and
have begged clothing for them. What do they want to nuirder
us for?"
Well, there was two or three men on the place. It seems like
there was two factions in the company, one working against the
other. Frank Britton had a lot of money coming from the com-
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1019
pai\y. He wanted to keep on the good side of the men, yet he was
working under cover for the company. He was keeping on the
good side of both sides. When the men were hungry, and came
and demanded food, he made excuses that he lost the keys and
couldn't find the truck license to take the truck out and get some
wood, to keep them warm. He made all kinds of excuses.
Mr. Parsons. Did they come that night?
Mrs. Hart. Yes. I heard singing, and it sounded like a couple
of men that had been drinking. I said, '"They're not coming
up liere." She said, "Yes. they are." The front apartment down-
stairs was empty. There was a glass window about so large [indi-
cating]. Then we come through the front room, and through to the
stairs. He had put a glass door at the top for more privacy. They
broke the glass out of the door downstairs, reached in, and turned
the key and came through there.
Mr. OsMERs. How many were there?
]Mrs. Hart. Two of them. I still didn't believe they were com-
ing up there, but when I heard them start, someone in the dark,
up the steps at the bottom of the steps, I realized she knew what
she was talking about. Otherwise, they never had been up there
before.
I took our little girl, and it just happened that I went into a
little closet, so that when they broke the door open at the top of
the stairs and pushed that door back, that door shielded us and
protected us going into the cupboard behind that door. Mrs. Britton
grabbed her baby and ran in the back bedroom and got behind the
door. These men stood within arm's reach of me. They broke
the glass out of the top door, too, and broke the lock. I could
have reached out of that hole in the glass and totiched both of
them. They stood there, and I heard one of them say, "Thej'^ must be
sleeping. Don't make any more noise. We'll wake them up. If
we can get rid of them we will hide them, and we will lay here
and wait for him to come. Nobody will know the difference, but
what they all pulled out in the night."
Well. I had my daughter's head against my heart, and had to
hold with all my strength to keep her teeth from chattering, she
was that scared, and I was scared, too. Frank Britton's mother-
in-law came to the bottom of the stairs then, and she says, "Boys,
come down out of there. The Harts aren't home. Come on down
and go on home and wait until they come back."
Mr. Parsons. Who was it that said that ?
Mrs. Hart. Frank Britton's mother-in-law.
Mr. Parsons. I see.
Mrs. Hart. Hisi wife's mother.
Mr. Parsons. I see.
Mrs. Hart. They came downstairs after a little coaxing. I heard
them go in his flat downstairs. I grabbed my daughter by the hand
and rushed out to the marsh to find him. It was just beginning to rain.
I ran down two or three houses near there. It was pretty dark in the
marsh, and I cotildn't find him in there. I talked to several people I
1Q20 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
knew, but I couldn't find him, I started back and made a circle of thft
house. I was afraid to go in the front way, see ? They were all in the
kitchen in the back. There was no shades or curtains. I could see
where they were all congregated. I thought I would go around the
back way until they had gone away, or until they came to warn him. but
I passed along, and at the next place there was two Mexican boys who
had done chores around there for the different men. I heard him kind
of "'huh-huh-huh-huh," like he has a habit of doing and I recognized.
1 opened the door and told them what the}^ had said and done. We had
no protection. We didn't have a gun or anything like that.
Mr. Parsons. Did they come back and molest you further after
that?
Mrs. Hart. Yes.
Mr. Hart. Yes.
Mrs. Hart. We went home, and just as we got to the end of the house,
they were coming down the road. They were coming back. They
hollered back and told Frank Britton that they would come back later.
We went in, and John told Frank Britton — he said : "Frank, you had
better tell your friends not to come back here tonight. Whoever the
company officials of this place is that wants me out of here, are going
to be badly fooled, because we have got our daughter in school on this
place, and we aren't going to leave here until spring, until school is out."
He said, "I didn't have anything to do with it." John says: "I
simply made a statement. I mean what I say. It is going to be too
bad for them. I am going to protect my family." We went upstairs,
and there was no lock on the door then. You see, the only thing we
had, we had a wood stove there, that we used for cooking and heating.
He i^icked two clubs up, about that big around [indicating] and that
long [indicating] . They had knots on them. He whittled them down,
you know, each club. He laid one on one end of the room — it was a
long room, across the end of the house upstairs — and one on the other
end. He said "You two stay over there and don't move."
One stumbled up the steps and hollered, "Hey, Hart, are you home?"
John said, "Yes. What do you want?" Both of the men's name was
Cole, but the}" weren't no relation.
Mr. Hart. They weren't no relation.
Mrs. Hart. "Well," he said, "I have got orders to kill you oflF, to-
night." John says : "Well, now, listen. You are drunk tonight, and
in the morning you are going to be sorry for this. You go on home
and get to bed. You are a young man, and engaged to be married
soon. You ought to be ashamed of yourself." "Ho," he said, "I have
got orders to kill you tonight."
His partner at the bottom of the steps told him — he says, "Go ahead,
Johnnie. Get him cornered. I am coming." Then the young fellow
got him by the front of his clothes and kept pushing him back into
our house. He finally got him back into the front room. John
realized he was being ganged. There was only one thing he could do to
protect himself. They finally was back to the corner where he had
that club. The one that gi-abbed John pretty hard on the front of the
clothes hollered, "Come on. I have got him cornered." Then John
reached and got him by the front and reached back and got his club
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1021
and gave him a couple of whacks beside the head. He says, "I'll go
down now." John says, "You'll go down when I send you down."
He dragged him to the top of the stairs and kicked him down the steps.
The other fellow who came up, he says, "I can finish him off if you
can't." He reached down into his pocket and pulled out a long knife,
like Mexicans carry. John said, "Jesse, if you come into my house,
I will try my level best to kill you. Don't come in here." He did come
in there. He came in there and started wrestling with John. John
reall}^ started to work on him in earnest. He took him to the top
of the steps and gave him a couple of good bats on the head, and I
guarantee you whenever he goes to comb his hair and looks in the
glass, he will remember it. He kicked him downstairs and he laid
there as dead.
They started the Kentucky war whoop downstairs, meaning that
he was dead. At 4 o'clock in the morning, daylight, I walked 4 miles
to Willard, Ohio, and reported it to the police, that they had broken
into our house. They came down and saw the mess. In the meantime
someone had taken the two men out in the marsh and hidden them.
The authorities at Willard had motorcyle police out for 10 days and
nights looking for them on motorcycles with floodlights, and they
couldn't find them.
It finally got so cold, and their heads became so badly infected, that
they had to have medical attention, and they came out on the highway
and gave themselves up.
Mr. Parsons. Did the authorities there do anything with them for
breaking into your home ?
Mrs. Hart. The authorities bound them over to the grand jury after
the trial was over.
Mr. Hart. They had a trial.
Mrs. Hart. The mother and father of the young lad and the in-
tended wife and the other man's seven or eight children came and
cried and begged us, saying that the men had had enough punishment,
and it would make it so hard on the families. They begged us not
to press the charges. They said they were sure they had been cured
of breaking in any man's house again.
Feeling that maybe they were right, and not wanting to make hard-
ships on their families, we agreed we wouldn't appear against them
when the grand jury was called.
Mr. Parsons. How long ago was that ?
Mr. Hart. 1930 or 1931.
Mrs. Hart. We went there in May, May 10, 1930, and left there the
next spring, in March.
Mr. Parsons. That would be 1931 ?
Mrs. Hart. 1931.
Mr. Parsons. Where did you go from there ?
Mr. Hart. From there we started back and went up to Chicago
Heights, 111. I got 4 or 5 more weeks' work in a glasshouse. I got a
chance in my trade. I worked maybe 4 or 5 weeks. They work you
4 or 5 weeks on a job the machine can't do, and then they put the
machine back to work and throw you out.
Mr. Parsons. That was in 1932?
JQ22 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Hart. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. When did you go to Indiana ?
Mr. Hart. We went down to Ohio, but the place we had there, the
water came in. There was floods, and you coulcLn't make nothing there.
The water came in and took both crops. The water came in and took
everything, and we had to get out of there.
Then we come back to Indiana, over to Mahoneysville. I paid $150
down on a little place over there.
IVIrs. Hart. He got that out of the soldiers' bonus.
Mr. Hart. I got that out of the soldiers' bonus. The Indian Creek
came in and took that. Then I came up to Johnson County to work in
the tomato fields, and we have this place we are on now.
Mr. Parsons. Is that in or near Johnson County ?
Mrs. Hart. In Johnson County.
Mr. Hart. In Johnson County.
Mr. Parsons. Are you in the tomato business ?
Mr. Hart. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. The growing of tomatoes?
Mr. Hart. Yes ; we picked tomatoes up there, and finally we rented
a 40-acre farm. The Farm Security have backed us.
Mr. Parsons. How much did they loan you ?
Mr. Hart. Nine hundred and some dollars.
Mr. Parsons. How much did you pay for the farm originally ?
Mrs. Hart. We rented it.
Mr. Hart. We didn't buy it. We are renting.
Mr. Parsons. You are renting the farm now?
Mr. Hart. Yes ; we are renting it.
Mrs. Hart. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. On a fifty-fifty basis ?
Mr. Hart. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. They furnish you everything?
Mr. Hart. No. We furnish everything.
Mr. Parsons. You furnish everything?
jNIr, Hart. We furnish stock, tools, and everything.
Mr. Parsons. You only get half of the tomato crop ?
Mr. Hart. They pay for half of the labor and we pay for the
other half. After what the canning factory steals, and what they
grade down on us, we don't have nothing left. They offer you $18
a ton for tomatoes when you put them in the ground, but when you
haul the tomatoes over to Stokely Bros., they give you $6.50 or $7 a
ton for them. They tell you they ai-e No. 3's, or culls, or something.
Mrs. Hart. But still they use those same tomatoes in the same
tank in which they use the No. I's.
Mr. Hart. They use every excuse they can think up to rob you.
Mr. Parsons. How much money do you think you made, ctr do
you think you have coming in, from the tomato crop last year?
Mr. Hart. On 15 acres of tomatoes we made $350. I got $150.
Mr. Parsons. What do you raise on the other acreage?
Mr. Hart. Corn and some vegetables.
Mr. Parsons. Do you market any vegetables locally ?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1023
Mv. Hart. We try to market some over at Indianapolis, but you
can't make enough over there. We take cabbage over there. We
haul it 20 miles and pay a dollar to get in on the market. It costs
you supper and breakfast and you have to stay all night, and still
they won't give you but 20 cents a bushel for the cabbage, and they
charge a dime for 3 pounds on the street. That is what the peddlers
charge, and the storekeepers. They charge the same thing.
Mr. Parsons. You say the Farm Security Administration loaned
you $900 ?
jMi". Hart. Yes.
Mrs. Hart. To buy stock and pigs.
Mr. Parsons. Have you been able to meet the payments on that ?
Mr. Hart, We paid the payments the first year in full. The sec-
ond year we fell down a little bit. We didn't have the money. The
canning factory took our whole crop.
]Mr. Parsons. You have a tomato crop again this year I assume.
Mr. Hart. Nine acres.
Mr. Parsons. Have you started picking?
Mr. Hart. We have started picking; yes.
Mr. Parsons. How is the price of tomatoes this year ?
Mr. Hart. The price of tomatoes is $12 a ton.
Mr. Parsons. Is that kind of a medii\in price ?
Mr. Hart. That is better than average.
Mrs. Hart. The price is all right.
Mr. Hart. The price is all right, but they grade you down in grad-
ing tomatoes, and they don't give you nothing. On sweet corn you
have gor to have select sweet corn or they won't take it.
Mr. Parsons. You still have the hope of being able to survive on
this place, though?
Mrs. Hart. No.
Mr. Hart. My place is too small. The Government has done all
they can for us on that farm, but it is too small. We need more land.
We have gone as far as we can go. We have too much stock for the
place now. It is increasing. We could live there. We can eat, but
can't go any further now.
Just like I said : You take cabbage to Indianapolis, and they buy
it for 20 cents a bushel. The peddler sells it for $1.30, when he only
invests 20 cents in a bushel of cabbage. If I could get $1.30 a bushel
for cabbage, I could buy that farm and pay it out in 2 years.
Mr. Parsons. Do you grow sweet corn for the market?
Mr. Hart. I grow sweet corn for the market and the canning factory.
Mr. Parsons. So you really farm the entire 40 acres ?
Mr. Hart. Every bit of it. On hay, the boy goes out and makes it
on shares. He makes 50 loads, to get 10 loads.
Mr. Parsons. On someone else's land ?
Mr. Hart. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. Are there any other questions, gentlemen? (No re-
sponse. ) Thank you very much, Mr. and Mrs. Hart. We are very glad
you came. You have had some rather unusual experiences, but no
doubt there are many, many people on the road who have had at least
some experiences similar to those you have had.
(Whereupon Mr. and Mrs. Hart were excused.)
JQ24 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Parsons. The committee will stand adjourned until 2 p. m.
( Wliereupon, at 1 p. m., a recess was taken until 2 p. m. of the same
day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION
(The hearing was reconvened at 2 p. m.)
TESTIMONY OF SILAS LOWDEN
Mr. Parsons. The committee will please come to order. The next
witness will be Silas Lowden. State your name and address for the
record, please, Mr. Lowden.
Mr. Lowden. Silas Lowden, 2936 Prairie.
Mr. Parsons. Congressman Curtis will question you.
Mr. Curtis. How old are you ?
Mr. Lowden. Twenty-three.
Mr. Curtis. Where were you born ?
Mr. Lowden. Memphis, Tenn.
Mr. Curtis. Are you married ?
Mr. Lowden. Single.
Mr. Curtis. Do you have relatives living in Tennessee ?
Mr. Lowden. No.
Mr. Curtis. Your mother and your father — are they living?
Mr. Lowden. They are dead.
Mr. Curtis. How long have they been dead ?
Mr. Lowden. My mother died when I was 3 weeks old and my
father died in 1924.
Mr. Curtis. Have you any brothers and sisters?
Mr. Lowden. No.
Mr. Curtis. How much schooling have you had ?
Mr. Lowden. First grade,
Mr. Curtis. First grade?
Mr. Lowden. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Where did you go to school ?
Mr. Lowden. I went to school in Mississippi, and went to school in
Memphis, Tenn.
Mr. Curtis. How long did you live in Tennessee ?
Mr. Lowden. Well, I couldn't exactly tell.
Mr. Curtis. How old were you when you went away ?
Mr. Lowden. I think about 18.
Mr. Curtis. About 18?
Mr. Lowden. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Then where did you go ?
Mr. Lowden. I came to move out of Memphis, but I was still in
Tennessee. I went to Cableville, Tenn.
Mr. Curtis. Where did you go from there?
Mr. Lowden. When I left there, that was in 1937. I came here.
Mr. Curtis. You have not lived in Mississippi very much ?
Mr. Lowden. No, sir ; not very much.
Mr. Curtis. Who raised you after your mother died?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1025
Mr. LowDEN. My uncle raised me up until I left home. Wlien I left
home, then I went to live with my fjochnother, and she died.
Mr. Curtis. How old were you when you left your uncle?
Mr. LowDEN. I couldn't exactly say. I left him in 1926.
Mr. Curtis. Where did your godmother live?
Mr. LowDEN. In Memphis.
Mr. Curtis. How long were you with her?
Mr. LowDEN. I was with her from 1926 until — well, anyway she
died in 1928.
Mr. Curtis. After she died, Silas, then you went out on your own ?
Mr. LowDEN. Then I went out on my own.
Mr. Curtis. What work do you know how to do ?
Mr. LowDEN. I can cook and wait on table ; work as a porter.
Mr. Curtis. Have you had any jobs cooking in public eating places?
Mr. LowDEN. Not here, but in Tennessee.
Mr. Curtis. Was it a hotel or restaurant?
Mr. LowDEN. A restaurant.
Mr. Curtis. How large a restaurant was that ?
Mr. LowDEN. Well, it was pretty good sized. I would say it was
half as large as this place here, this room.
Mr. Curtis. How many cooks did they have in the kitchen?
Mr. Low^DEN. Just only me.
Mr. Curtis. You w^ere the chief cook?
Mr. LoAVDEN. Yes. I would go to work at 7 o'clock in the morning
and quit at 11 at night.
Mr. Curtis. What did they pay you?
Mr. LowDEN. $7 a week.
Mr. Curtis. And your board ?
Mr. LowDEN. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. But you did not get any room?
Mr. LowDEN. No.
Mr. Curtis. Were you able to find work all the time down there in
Tennessee ?
Mr. LowDEN. Well, sometimes I would and sometimes I wouldn't.
Mr. Curtis. Were you unemployed for any great length of time each
year ?
Mr. LowDEN. No; not a great length of time.
Mr. Curtis. Did you make enough money so you could live on it
without going on relief?
Mr. LowDEN. I darned near did, a little bit. but as it was, I could
make it without getting relief.
Mr. Curtis. Did you have any relief when you were down in Ten-
nessee ?
Mr. LowDEN. No relief at all.
Mr. Curtis. When did you come up to Chicago ?
Mr. LowDEN. 1937.
Mr. Curtis. Do you remember what month of the year it was?
Mr. LowDEN, It was 1937, Christmas.
Mr. Curtis. Christmas Day?
Mr. LowDEN. Yes ; when I came here.
1026 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Curtis. So j^ou have been liere in 1938, 1939, and this far in
1940?
Mr. LowDEN. Yes.
Mr. Curtis, Did you know anyone in Chicago when you came?
Mr. LowDEN. Yes. I had some friends here.
Mr. Curtis. Some bo3"s you knew back home that had come up to
Chicago ?
Mr. LowDEN. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Did any of them write and tell you to come ?
Mr. LowDEN. No. I came myself.
Mr. Curtis. Did you have their addresses when you came?
Mr. LowDEN. Yes. I had their addresses when I came.
Mr. Curtis. Did they have work?
Mr. LowDEN. No. They weren't working when I got up here.
Mr. Curtis. Have you been able to get any work in Chicago?
Mr. LowDEN. Not worth anything, tfust a job here and a job there.
That is all I have been able to do.
Mr. Curtis. How long would these jobs last ?
Mr. LowDEN. I would probably get one that would last 3 weeks.
Maybe the next one would last a month and like that.
Mr. Curtis. "What kind of work was that ?
Mr. LowDEX. Well, one time I was working at — well, I might call
it a junk shop.
Mr. Curtis. A junk shop of old cars?
Mr. LowDEN. No; where they keep paint and stuff — rags and stuff
like that.
Mr. Curtis. Where they keep what?
Mr. LowDEN. Paper, rags, and thinks like that.
Mr. Curtis. Oh, yes.
Mr. LowDEX. Then I left there and started working with a decorator.
Mr. Curtis. What kind of a decorator, painter and paperhanger ?
Mr. LowDEx. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. A colored boy or white ?
Mr. LowDEN. Colored.
Mr. Curtis. How long did you work with this decorator?
Mr. LowDEX. I worked with him quite a while. In fact, I worked
with him until about a month ago,
Mr, Curtis, What did he pay you?
Mr, LowDEX. Well, he paid me — for three walls he paid me $1,50.
Mr. Curtis. $1.50 for three walls?
Mr. LowDEX. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. How much could you make a week doing that work?
Mr. LowDEX", A week?
Mr. Curtis. Yes.
Mr. LowDEX'. I could make around $15 or $20 a week.
Mr. Curtis. Out of the little over two and a half years you have
been here, have you had work half of the time, do you think?
Mr. LowDEx^ No. I have not had work half of the time.
Mr. Curtis. Why did you leave down South where you were getting
your food and some wages ?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1027
Mr. LowDEN. Well, I just got tired of it all down there and decided
I would come here; and from now on. if I get tired. I will probably
go some other place.
Mr. Curtis. Had you heard about higher wages in the northern
cities t
Mr. LowDEX. Yes. I heard about that.
Mr. Curtis. You wanted to come up and try it?
Mr. LowDEx. That is right.
Mr. Curtis. Have you ever been broke and without money or food
since you got to Chicago ?
Mr. LowDEX. I have been without money, but I haven't been with-
out food.
Mr. Curtis. You stayed with some friends when you were broke?
Mr. LowDEx. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Have you tried to go on relief ?
Mr. LowDEx. I tried to go on relief; yes.
Mr. Curtis. What success did you have?
Mr. LowDEN. I didn't have no success at all. I couldn't get on.
Mr. Curtis. What did they say was the reason ?
Mr. LowDEX. They said I hadn't been here long enough at the
time.
Mr. Curtis. You are supposed to be here 3 years, are you not ?
Mr. LowDEX. Three years.
Mr. Curtis. Have you worked with unj employment agency or any
organization tiying to get a job?
Mr. LowDEx. The Urban League.
Mr. Curtis. The Urban League?
Mr. LowDEx. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. They have been trying to help you find something?
Mr. LowDEX. Yes.
Mr. Parsoxs. Is that a colored employment agency?
Mr. Lov>DEx. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Have you ever been fired from any job because you
did not do your work?
Mr. LowDEX. No. I haven't never been fired.
Mr. CxTRTis. When you did get some monej^, what did vou spend it
for?
Mr. LowDEX. I bought clothes, and spent it for what I needed.
Mr. Curtis. Did you ever need much liquor?
Mr. LowDEX. I don't drink at all.
Mr. Curtis. That is fine. There are just more people hunting work
than there are jobs, is that not so?
Mr. LowDEX. You are mighty right.
Mr. Curtis. How did you come up from Tennessee ? Did you come
on a train?
Mr. LowDEN. On a bus.
Mr. Curtis. Did you pay your fare?
Mr. LowDEX. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. How much money did you have when you arrived ?
Mr. LowDEX. $40.
]^Q28 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. CuKTis. If you do not find work here, what are you going
to do?
Mr. LowDEN. I don't know. I feel if I live and get something to
eat, I am going to find a job here some day. if I keep my health and
strength, maybe,
Mr. Curtis. If yon do not find one here, wliat are you going to do ?
Mr. LowDEX. I will go somewhere else.
Mr. CuETis. I think that is all.
Mr. Parsons. Thank you very much.
(Whereupon Silas Lowden was excused.)
TESTIMONY OP W. A. ROWLANDS, DISTRICT EXTENSION LEADER,
PROFESSOR OF LAND ECONOMICS, UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN;
AND M. W, TORKELSON, SECRETARY AND EXECUTIVE OFFICER
OF THE WISCONSIN STATE PLANNING BOARD
Mr, Parsons. Mr. Kowlands. will you give your name and address
and your official position to the reporter?
Professor Rowlands. W. A. Rowlands, University of Wisconsin,
district extension leader, professor of land economics.
Mr. Parsons. Mr. Torkelson, will you give your name, address, and
official position to the reporter?
Mr. ToRKELsoN. M. W. Torkelson. director of the State planning
board and chairman of the Northern Lake States Regional Committee,
address State Office Building, Madison, Wis.
(Statements of W. A. Rowlands and M. W. Torkelson are as
follows:)
Statement bt W. A. Rowlands, UNnERSixY of Wisconsin
A statement on rural zoning and land ITSE In WISCONSIN
Twenty-four nortliern and central Wisconsin counties have planned, developed
and enacted rural zoning ordinances. Under these rural zoning ordinances,
close to 5,000,000 acres of land, much of it tax delinquent and most of it non-
agricultural, have been officially closed to future agricultural settlement and
year-long residence. These restricted lands will best serve the State and their
owners in forestry, recreation, game, and in special industrial uses, thus leaving
the better agricultural lands in already established communities open to un-
restricted development and use. The restriction of an area of such size in
Wisconsin is an undertaking of no small proportions and a tremendously sig-
nificant one to all AVisconsin people.
Rural zonhig an economic necessity. — In the sparsely settled areas of northern
and central Wisconsin the need for controlling land uses grew out of sheer
economic and financial necessity. These counties were burdened with aban-
doned farms, tax-delinquent lands, and a shrinking tax base on the one hand
and increased per capita costs for local government services, stich as roads and
schools, on the other hand. This reduction of income, which became most acute
in the latter part of the decade 1920-30, together with counties owning millions
of acres of land acquired by tax deed, worked filiancial havoc on already badly
depleted treasuries.
Out of the shattering realities of this period, three observations became in-
creasingly clear to the county ofiicers and interested citizens.
1. That uncontrolled and unregulated settlement and development of the
land results in increasing demands on the town in building and maintaining
new roads and on the school district in transporting, boarding, or providing
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1029
special school facilities. Such demands had already cost the town, the school
district, the county, and the State many times the amount of taxes paid by
the settler. In the interests of sound governmental economy, it was evident
that a curb should be placed on the establishment of new governmental services.
2. That a substantial area of land throughout all of northern Wisconsin
should be used for both pulilic and private forestry purposes, for recreation, and
for the development of game resources because it is submarginal for agriculture
and because we need forests. L(»cal people realized that to provide for
permanent employment, permanent industry, and permanent business it was
vital that the nonagricultural lands produce raw material for local wood-
using industries.
3. That definite assurance be given the State and the more populated
counties that State aids will be wisely administered and wisely used. Many
town and county officers felt strongly their resiDonsibility in seeing that State
aid for roads, for schools, for fire protection, for forest development purix»ses,
and for public health be carefully husbanded. Under a system of unregulated
development this was impossible. Fostering the old spirit of free pioneering, as
exemplified by Daniel Boone, at the same time attempting to provide Govern-
ment services to any family regardless of location, inevitably resulted in ex-
tremely heavy costs to the local and State treasuries.
Many State agencies having administrative responsibility throughout Wis-
consin recognize the benefits of an orderly control in land use and give it their
moral support. Officers of the State board of health have repeatedly pointed
out the danger that lurks in abandoned buildings in remote areas. Such build-
ings are constantly occupied by a succession of squatters who stay for perhaps
a season and then move on. Under the sanitary conditions that prevail around
such places, it is practically impo.ssible to clean up the premises adequately
following the outbreak of a communicable disease. Numerous serious outbreaks
of contagious diseases have been traced to these places. Further, it is con-
tended by officers of the State board of health that their general health work
is hampered by the inaccessibility of remote settlers. It is clear then that the
sooner this type of settlement is eliminated the easier it will be to build a
higher standard of health for the region and the State.
The State conservation department likewise manifests an active intere.st
in land use and in the adoption and enforcement of county zoning ordinances
for forestry, recreation, and agriculture. Fire protection, game protection, and
forestry development constitute important activities in the work of this depart-
ment. Certainly it needs no extended discussion to make obvious the hazard
to forest and to recreation areas incident to land clearing by a remote settler.
Local residents — old settlers and particularly county and town officers — in
every county and in almost every town can readily relate incidents which lend
reality to the reasons for the interest of the several State departments.
Objecfii'es in rural zoninff.— In zoning rural areas there are two strong motivat-
ing forces behind the movement today. One features zoning as a "means of
protecting property values ; the other as a strong element of government designed
to curb the cost of all too frequent wasteful governmental services. One force
recognizes tlie stability in values which attaches to a community of usage, par-
ticularly when certain aesthetic values ai"e incorporated into the community
plan. The second seeks so to direct land development that maximum usage is
made of existing public services before newer and only partly used ones are
inaugurated. A third force, more evident in some areas than others, is the
necessity of protecting certain social values which may become blighted through
unregulated expansion.
Creafhif/ an enlightened pnilic opinion. — The Wisconsin county zoning law
(sec. 50.97 of the Wisconsin Statutes) is definitely a "home rule" law. Author-
ity to zone is given to the county board of supervisors subject to the approval
(if the town board of the town or towns involved. The initiative in the enact-
ment of a county zoning ordinance rests with the county board. The county
board may draw up the provisions of the zoning ordinance including:
1. The creation of specific use districts and designating the boundaries of the
districts on an official zoning map.
2. The permitted and prohibited uses of land for each district.
3. Provisions for changes and amendments.
]^Q30 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Further, it is the agency charged with the responsibility for adminif^toriug
and enforcing the ordinance after it is enacted. The town board, on the other
hand, is given the power to approve or reject tlie ordinance and the boundaries
of the use districts.
It has been a fundamental principle in zoning procedure in Wisconsin that
residents in rural communities should be considered and consulted in the de-
velopment of plans which affect them most. To that end, local educational
meetings, arranged by the county committee on zoning, assisted in a purely
advisory way by a representative either of the college of agriculture of the
University of Wisconsin or of the Wisconsin Conservation Department, have been
held in school houses, town halls, and even in private homes in numerous com-
munities of all zoned counties. The greatest merit in this procedure is that it has
won the support and respect of settlers and taxpayers throughout the several
zoned counties. Rural people were much more concerned with the spirit in which
their elected representatives enacted the ordinance than they were in the tech-
nical aspects of procedure.
The job of rural zoning in Wisconsin is not completed with the enactment of
a zoning ordinance. It will never be completed — because — after enactment
comes administration and enforcement. As the result of experience, popula-
tion growth, or changing conditions, amendments have already been made in
many of the Wisconsin ordinances.
A rural zoning ordinance is only part in the development of land-use pro-
gram. Since the enactment of rural zoning ordinances northern Wisconsin
counties have been actively and productively engaged in :
1. Establishing and maintaining definite policies with respect to the sales
and disposals of county-owned lands for agricultural, recreational, and other
uses.
2. Relocating isolated settlers from nonagricultural lands in restricted dis-
tricts to good farm lands in established communities close to roads, schools,
markets, and community centers or in the case of nnnfarm families or those
too old or physically handicapped to farm relocation to urban centers where
they may "be taken care of" with less expense for relief and public health.
3. Blocking forest tends for better administration through exchange or pur-
chase.
4. Entering tax-reverted lands in restricted forestry districts under the Wis-
consin forest crop law in cooperation with the State conservation department
to develop forests.
5. Reserving recreational lands and water for recreational use. By re-
stricting the agricultural use of close to 5,000,000 acres of land, these Wisconsin
counties have accomplished vp'atershed protection and flood control insofar as
this can be accomplished through proper utilization.
6. Demolishing abandoned shacks and structures on public (county) land to
eliminate fire hazards and to improve the health standards of the region.
7. Consolidating the smaller units of Government made obsolete through
land planning, land zoning, and the relocation of isolated settlers.
With the assistance from the State and Federal Government there has
already been a real achievement in all of these programs. With continued
financial aid from the Federal Government in the relocation of isolated set-
tlers, the ultimate objectives of rural zoning can be achieved.
During the past several years some 400 isolated tracts of land have been
purchased by the Federal Government. On many of the.se tracts famiUes were
attempting to eke out an existence. The purchase of these lands has made
possible the closing of some 14 rural schools. It has saved several thousand
dollars annually in expenses for school transportation ; likewise, road costs
have been reduced by eliminating the necessity for maintenance and snow-
plowing. Relief costs have been materially cut by voluntarily relocating many
of the families in settled areas in which they have a chance to obtain a reason-
ably satisfactory standard of living.
J
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
1031
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JQ32 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
EXHIBITS
Publications
1. Rural Zoning — Its Influence on Public Health and Schools,
2. What Chance Has a City Man on a Wisconsin Farm?
3. Rural Zoning Ordinance in Wisconsin.
4. Rural County Zoning in Wisconsin.
5. What Does Northern Wisconsin Farming Need Most?
6. Relocating the Isolated Settler.
7. Wisconsin's Land Use Program in the Forested Areas.
8. Bayfield County Zoning Ordinance.
y. Selecting a Farm in Northern Wisconsin.
10. Making the Best Use of Wisconsin Land Through Zoning.
Statement by M. W. Torkelson, Secretary and Executive Officer of the
Wisconsin State Planning Board
statement on population changes in the CUT-OVKR region of WISCONSIN
In the performance of its duties under Wisconsin Statutes, the State plan-
ning board has made extensive studies of population and population changes,
local government income and expenditures, tax delinquency, and other matters
relating to the economic condition of all portions of the State.
The Northern Lakes States Regional Committee, a group composed of in-
dividuals selected because of their familiarity with conditions in the so-called
cut-over region of the three lake States of Michigan, Minnesota, and Wis-
consin, and organized by the National Resources Committee ( since July 30,
1931, the National Resources Planning Board) to study conditions in the
region and propose measures for its rehabilitation, has worked intensively for
2 years. Its report, of which copy is 6\ed herewith, has been submitted to
the President. The President transmitted the report to Congress in a statement
wliich read in part as follows :
"I am asking that the National R''sources Planning Board keep in touch
with the regional committee, which sponsored this report, to assist the regional
committee in promoting correlation of activities of Federal, State, and local
agencies concerned with bringing about the accomplishments desired. I com-
mend the report to your careful study for whatever action may be appropriate."
In addition, the committee has submitted definite legislative proposals which
have been considered by the National Resources Planning Board and trans-
nutted to the President, accompanied by a statement by the Board that "the
proposals are in harmony with the recommendations of the report of Northern
Lakes States Regional Committee with which Board agrees in principle."
The net influence of migration on the 26 counties in Wisconsin which were
designated by the Northern Lakes States Regional Committe as "cut-over"
are set out in the attached tabulations and the explanatory statements which
accompany these tabulations. Those counties which are shown on the attached
map entitled "Map No. 2, Population iMap of Wisconsin, 1930," do not include
all of the areas of poor agricultural land in northern and central Wisconsin
but may be considered as presenting fairly the extent of the problem area
since they contain very good agricultural areas which balance ixtor agricul-
tural areas outside the boundaries of the designated region. The two tabu-
lations presented here are intended to show the migration trends within the
cut-over region of Wisconsin since 1910. The first of the.se (table I), based on
United States census data, shows the net migration for the period 1910 to
1930. The second (table II). based on school census data, reflects migration
in this area since 1930.
Between 1910 and 1930 21 of the 26 counties in this region experienced net
emigrations. The area as a whole (including also those counties that experi-
enced net immigrations) lost over 78,000 persons during this period as the
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1033
result of migration. Of this number, over Go,00n persons were between the
productive ages of 20 and 44 years. Since this migration was a movement pri-
marily of persons in their productive primes, it obviously resulted from a
relatively prevailing scarcity of economic opportunity within the region. De-
clining forestry industries were basic in most of these counties. Some coun-
ties were overcome as a result of either depletions of mineral resources or the
attainment of the point of sulmiarginal production. Douglas and Ashland
Counties, especially the cities of Superior and Ashland, became particularly
depressed as the result of the declining resources of the area whose products
pas.sed through them for distribution through the Great Lakes.
Since 193(i the distressed economic conditions in the rest of the State, as well
as in other States, temporarily halted the exodus of the population from this
legion. Between 1980 and 19a3 there \^as even an immigration into this area
which is illustrated by the increase in the number of its children of school age
(table II). To a large extent this was a return of persons who had migrated
to other areas which were now experiencing even greater economic distress.
This movement was general throughout the State and continued through the
worst part of the depression. However, this return to the region was only tem-
porary, since after 1933 the normal emigration was resumed. This is illus-
trated by the decline in the number of children of scliool age since 1933.
The resumption of general emigration from this region in the face of uncer-
tain economic opportunities elsewhere is again illustrative of the region's eco-
nomic limitations. The generally poor condition of these counties was greatly
aggravated Viy the temporary halt in the exodus of their populations. In many
communities it has become difficult to maintain basic functions of local govern-
ment and education without outside help. A large percentage of the population
has become dependent on Government aid for sustenance. The necessary local
budgets in many communities have swelled to a point where property tax levies
are prohibitive even for normally self-sustaining taxpayers. Delinquencies are
numerous. Land reversions have occurred in large numbers causing tremendous
losses in the local tax bases. These, in turn, necessitate even higher tax rates
in order to maintain the mounting governmental obligations with the shrinking
tax base.
The substance of the legislative proposals of the Northern Lakes States Regional
Committee, which are in harmony with the land-use policies set out in the testi-
mony of W. A. Rowlands at this hearing, are as follows :
1. Tile purchase of the holdings of isolated settlers whose residence in the
particular place demands inordinately liigli expenditures for pul)lic services such
as schools, roads, and relief, where relief is necessai-y.
2. An amplification of the program of the Farm Security Administration
whereby farmers properly located on potentially good farms, whose economic
self-sufficiency is prevented by reason of an insufficient acreage of land in crops
on their respective farms, may be aided in securing the acreage of land, cleared
of stumps and in crops, that is necessary to make the farm a self-supporting unit
in a self-supporting connnunity.
3. An increased program of reforestation having a twofold objective: (a) The
restoration of the forests, which are the basic natural resource of the region;
(ft) the provision of cash paid employment in useful work for I'esidents of the
regions, especially the rural residents, during the period in which tliey are in
piocess of attaining economic self-sufficiency on their farms.
The supporting documents attached hereto are the following:
E.rhihit I. — Th" report of the Northern Lakes States Regional Committee —
"Regional Planning, Part YIII, Northern Lakes States."
Ea-hihit II. — The legislative proposals of the Northern Lakes States Regional
Committee — "Revised Proposals for Federal Action Programs in the Northern
Lakes States."
Exhihit III. — The Wisconsin State Planning Board Bulletin No. 7 — "Tlie Cut-
over Region of Wisconsin."
3^034 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Table I. — Population migration^ in the cut-orer area of Wisconsin, 19/0-SO
Migration by age groups
All age
groups
0-19
years
20-44
years
45 years
and over
Entire region
Counties:
Adams
Ashland
Bayfleld
Burnett
Chippewa
Clark
Douglas
Eau Claire
Florence
Forest
Iron
Jackson
Juneau
Langlade
Lincoln
Marinette
Monroe
'Oconto
Oneida
Price
Kusk
Sawyer
Taylor
Vilas
Washburn
Wood
287
483
636
504
692
729
992
826
100
013
370
054
357
434
204
031
424
800
466
-876
-962
149
-378
-002
-1,060
-1,129
-106
1,323
479
-2,612
1,011
-98
2,055
350
-1,441
-2,393
1,648
153
-1,351
-1,557
60
1,250
1,348
2, 308
870
2,044
248
922
2,182
-2,683
-3,168
-4,412
-2, 119
-3,570
-5.818
-2, 254
650
-825
-no
-1,209
-4, 429
-4,883
-1,507
-1,746
-5,383
-6,173
-5,893
123
-1,854
-1,172
-989
-2,374
-1,001
-922
-1,690
-702
-1,255
-1,095
-279
-1,445
-1,390
-2, 126
1. 165
-177
68
-511
-1,184
-1,081
-575
-611
-2, 297
-1,691
-1,967
93
-378
189
31
-546
-209
149
-870
1 The population migration for the period 1910-30 was determined by subtracting the computed popula-
tion tor 1930 from the actual census of 1930. The computed population for 1930 was obtained by applying
the natural rate of increase to the census of 19)0. Had there been no migration, the computed population
for 1930 would have been identical with the 1930 census.
The figures in this table show the difference between the actual and computed population for 1930 and
represent net migration. Minus signs indicate a net emigration; all other figures indicate a net immigration
Table II.
-Children of school age in the cut-over area in Wisconsin for the years
11)21, 19S0, 193.3, and 1936'
1927
1930
1933
1936
186, 010
178, 509
181,071
176, 895
Counties:
2,974
7,702
6,268
3,607
11, 622
12, 793
15, 277
10, 992
1,479
4,039
3,759
5,605
5,761
7,523
7,637
12, 335
8,898
10, 423
4,715
6,501
6,323
3, 220
.7,531
2,226
4,041
12, 759
2, 768
7,247
5,656
3,497
11,426
12, 071
14, 249
11, 568
1,280
3, 905
3,699
5,505
5,389
7,470
7,015
11,458
8, 754
9,864
4,705
fi, 173
6, 075
3.179
7,083
2,043
3, 694
12, 736
2,952
7,462
5,441
3,732
11,473
12, 278
13, 615
12, 041
1, 352
4,146
3,478
5,394
5, 451
7,713
7, 096
11,785
8,866
9,707
5,118
6,278
6, 231
3. 395
7,019
2,392
3,854
12, 802
2,766
Ashland -
7, 535
Bayfleld ...-..- ._
4,924
3,709
11,850
Clark -
11,355
12,971
Eau Claire . .- .
12, 059
Florence .. -
1.369
4,170
Iron - --
3,174
5,126
Juneau -- -
5, 385
7,559
7, 078
Marinette - .. --
11,260
8,794
9,127
5,446
Price.. -- . -- _ - _
5,994
Rusk- - - - -
5,867
Sawyer.- .. - . - .... - ..
3, 576
Taylor . . ...
6,671
Vilas -. --.
2,448
Washburn . ...
3,907
Wood .. ..
12. 775
1 Based on school census in the annual school district reports to the State superintendent of public
Instruction.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1035
TESTIMONY OF W. A. ROWLANDS AND M. W. TOEKELSON—
Resumed
Mr. Parsons. Congressman Sparkman will question you, gentlemen.
Mr. Sparkman. Gentlemen, 3'Our prepared statements will be made
part of the record. I have reatl them over, and I am sure every mem-
ber of the committee has. We would like to review some of the high
i-pots of those statements, if we might, and have any further thoughts
or suggestions you might have to oifer us.
This is Mr. Torkelson [indicating], is it not?
]Mr. Torkelson. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. You are chairman of the State planning board; is
that right ?
Mr. Torkelson. I am not chairman. I am the director and executive
officer.
Mr. Sparkman. Tell me what the duties of the planning board are,
hoAv they applv to interstate migration, and in what way you are con-
nected with it.
Mr. Torkelson. The duties are to make studies with respect to the
various factors which ma}' influence the development of the State,
rej^ort the results, and to cooperate with local governments and civic
groups in planning activities.
Among such factors are transportation in all its forms, housing,
work opportunities, and especially the natural resources, among them
Mater resources involving flood control and hydro power.
The purpose is to promote well-coordinated development. Such
studies have disclosed the relation of problems which may arise by the
reason of migration. The standard of living in any area is dependent
upon the ability of that area to support the population, and that is
dependent upon the adjustment of the population to the resources.
Such adjustment may be altered radically by changes in the popula-
tion, and since migration may cause very great and very rapid changes
in population, studies of resources with respect to population are very
important.
OBJECTH'ES or RI RAL ZONING IN AVISCONSIN
Mr. Sparkman. Professor Rowlands, you are head of the rural zon-
ing board ?
Mr. Rowlands. I am specialist in land economics in the university
and have been working with the counties in the development of their
zoning ordinances. I have no official capacitj^ in developing, enacting,
or enforcing zon.ing.
Mr. Sparkman. Is Wisconsin, Professor Rowlands, rather a pioneer
in this type of work?
Mr. Rowlands. Wisconsin did develop the first distinctly rural
State enabling act for zoning. California and some other States per-
mitted county zoning under a charter system, I believe, and while it
was county zoning, it did not regulate and restrict all land within the
county outside the incorporated limits of cities and villages to any
of these special uses permitted in the ordinance.
Mr. Sparkman. Would you tell us just what the objectives of rural
zoning are in Wisconsin?
Mr. Rowlands. In Wisconsin there are a number of objectives but
the four that stand out. that are dominant, are the promotion of Gov-
1036 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
eriiment. economy in the development of roads, snowplowing mainte-
nance, and so forth: in schools; in relief; in public health: in forest
protection, fire prevention; the promotion of (lovermnent economy by
preventing the development of farms on land that is unfit, that is iso-
lated, and that is worthless for agriculture.
The second reason was that the people in the north felt the need to
develop a basis for the right kind of land use such as forests, recrea-
tion, water control and wildlife development where the resources and
environment are fitted for it.
The third was perhaps peculiar to Wisconsin. That was to merit
and maintain the principle of State aid, because in Wisconsin our
northern counties get from three to five times as much from the State
in the form of State aids as they pay into the State in the form of State
taxes. We have State aid for roads, schools, relief, public health, fire
protection, and forest development. The counties feel they should
put their own house in order if they are to merit and maintain that
assistance from the State.
The fourth reason, which was not apparent originally, but which is
now becoming more and more apparent, is the protection given to pros-
pective settlers by preventing settlement on lands that are isolated and
that are worthless to agriculture. Tax-delinquent land in Michigan
reverts to the State. In Minnesota — Dr. Zon can correct me — each
unit of the government had a stake in the uncollected taxes. In Wis-
consin tax-delinquent land reverts to the county and becomes a prob-
lem of the county. Those were the four basic reasons why the counties
wanted to develop zoning ordinances.
Mr. Sparkman. Was most of that land you speak of as being sub-
marginal land suited or not to agriculture in what is known as the
cut-over region?
Mr. Rowlands. Most of it was not suited to agriculture.
Mr. Sparkman. Was it the cut -over region that posed the principal
problem for you?
Mr. Rowlands. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Resulting in the establishment of this kind of
work ?
Mr. Rowlands. Yes: the cut-over region, or the former timberlands
of northern and central Wisconsin are the major land-problem regions
of the State.
Mr. Sparkman. Did that produce a migration problem with your
people, or in what way did it tie up with the migration problem?
Mr. Rowi.ands. In the cut-over region, we have many separate
nationality groups. We have, for instance, migration into parts of
Forest County. This has taken place in the towns of Nashville and
Alvin. In northern AVisconsin we have many small communities of
Polish, Croatian, Finnish, Czech, German, French-Canadian, and so
forth.
We also have migration into a group of northwest counties such as
Douglas, Baj^field, Burnett, and so forth, from the Dust Bowl.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1037
PUBLIC OWNERSHIP OF LAND
Mr. Sparkman. With respect to most of these lands, these sub-
marginal lands, to whom do they belono;? Do they still belong to the
individual, or had they been lost through tax delinquency ?
Mr. Ro"\VLANDS. When the zoning ordinances were first enacted in
the north, the counties owned anywhere from 100.000 acres to 300,000
acres of land, from which they got no return, and had to pay for all
of its protection, roads, schools, and so forth. Much of it had re-
verted to county ownership at the time of enactment of the zoning
ordinances. The owner, in some cases a real-estate group, in some
cases lumber companies, in some cases! the State, and in some cases
individuals, saw no possible hope for getting out of it what they had
put into the land already, so they dropped them for taxes.
The county took land in place of cash taxes. The county had the
problem of owning, managing, and administering more land than any
single owner or any group of owners of that kind of land in the
county. We have acted to prevent any further expense. The first
step was zoning. Then about eight other steps followed that.
Mr. Sparkman. You s])eak of this land as zoned. I gather from
your use of the term, and also from other statements you have made,.
that the real purpose is to divide it up and classify it ?
Mr. Rowlands. That is correct.
Mr. Sparkman. Some of it is suitable, and some of it is not, for
agricultural or for resettling purposes?
Mr. Rowlands. That is right.
Mr. Sparkman. Or for whatever purpose you might have in mind?
Mr. Rowlands. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Take the land that is not suitable for agricultural
purposes : To what use is it being devoted? Is it being reforested?
Mr. Rowlands. Yes. We have a total of approximately 5.000,000
acres restricted by these self-imposed restrictions enacted by the
counties through zoning ordinances either to forest or recreation dis-
tricts. Most of it is restricted to forestry districts. The establish-
ment of a legal residence and the agricultural use of that land is
prohibited by the county zoning ordinance after the enactment of the
zoning ordinance. People who are in there may remain, but no new
residence may be established in that district after the enactment of
the zoning ordinance.
It is in that area where wo have national forests, county forests.
State forests, and also some private forests. I would say that per-
haps today 70 percent of the land that is at present restricted is in
some form of public ownership, use, and management, either Federal,
State, or county, for forestry.
Mr. Parsons. You mean the land was forfeited to the State ?
Mr. Rowlands. To the county, in Wisconsin.
Mr. Parsons. They do not have the system of putting it up and sell-
ing it ?
Mr. Rowlands. Yes; they do.
Mr. Parsons. At public auction, for the taxes ?
Mr. Rowlands. They do; but when nobody else takes it, buys it or
bids for it. the county takes deed to it.
1Q38 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Parsons. I see.
Mr. Rowlands. They have been taking deed to the aood land and the
bad, to get rid of tlie fictitious tax base.
Mr. Sparkman. They are just using that method to charge it off their
books ?
Mr. Rowlands. Yes. Many counties have established a definite
policy covering the sales and disposals of those lands. Once they get
this class of land into their ownership, then they can begin to block
it up for best administration by exchange with other lands.
Mr. Parsons. It left you with a lot of surplus labor when the lumber-
ijig business ran its course in Wisconsin, did it not?
Mr. Rowlands. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. Where did those people go ?
Mr. Rowlands. A number of those people have just left. Some have
gone to cities. Some have moved into villages. They had land in
the early days. I think the paradox in Wisconsin is that settlement
ceased — the bulk of settlement ceased — when logging stopped, because
the.y had a little land they were developing and getting a winter's
work in the woods with their teams, and that sort of thing — getting
enough money to go back on the farm and do clearing and developing
and building. However, when the outside employment was gone and
when the lumber industry went out, it left a lot of dead sawmill
towns, straitened communities, and isolated settlers. This created a
financial condition among the counties that was unprecedented.
Mr. Sparkman. Are these public lands being patrolled?
Mr. Rowlands. They are protected and being watched. We have
C. C. C. camps which are assisting in fii-e-suppression work, and in
building roads, trails, and doing forest-development work, such as
planting and timber-stand improvement.
Mr. Sparkman. Squatters are kept off'?
Mr. Rowlands. Squatters have been kept off private lands, and
in many cases squatters have been kept off of a number of the county-
owned lands. As a matter of fact, we have had county officers
destroy, burn, and demolish isolated abandoned shacks on county-
owned lands that might have become a habitation to some itinerant
family, resulting in health problems, road, school, and relief problems.
As a matter of fact, we have had a number of cases where the county
did not demolish such shacks soon enough. Marinette County in par-
ticular has had the experience of having families come in and inhabit
these shacks and cause serious financial burden to the county. There
was a total cost of $800 due to the existence of one shack in 2 years.
proposals for land policy
Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Torkelson. you have outlined for us some region
proposals of the Lake States regional committee?
Mr. Torkelson. The regional proposals are right in line with the
land policy Mr. Rowlands lias ex])lained. It is a three-point program.
The first is the continuation of the work of buying out these isolated
settlers who are located on these unrestricted lands where they stand no
chance at all of makine: fi success.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1039
The second step is a continuation of the work of the Farm Security
Administration, together with some changes which would permit
farmers who have adopted the Farm Security Administration plan,
who are located on land where they stand ;i chance of success, where
the man is all right, to get more acres of land in crops. Our studies
showed that, in the best farming districts of the State, the average
farm had about 62 acres of land in crops. In the intermediate sec-
tion, about 52 acres of land in crops were farmed. But in the cut-
over region, there were only 36 acres of land in crops per average
farm.
In the arbitrary classification — it was somewhat arbitrary — there
were some counties which had a lot of poor land, but also had a lot
of good land. In some of those counties in the cut-over land, they
averaged from only 20 to 25 acres of land in crops per farm.
Mr. Parsons. What was that, broken land, in some places^
Mr. ToRKELsoN. It was broken land. In those cases we think the
thing to do is to put the farmer on his feet, and provi'de him with
more acres.
Mr. Parsons. Is it loam soil ?
Mr. ToRKELSON. The best soils in that territory are what we call the
silt loam, or light clay loam soil. For certain crops that is very good
and very productive. If a man can get a mininuun of 40 acres of
land in crops, or better, 50 or 55 acres, he should be economically self-
supporting, just as much as a farmer anywhere else.
Mr. Sparkman. Go ahead, Mr. Torkelson.
Mr. ToRKELsox. The third point is the development of the refores-
tation program, that having a twofold purpose. The regional com-
mittee in the Northern Lake States feels that the Government should
make an investigation of the forests, because the preliminary work
of the development of forests will provide a field for labor. These
fellows can be employed on very useful work in the forests while they
are struggling to get started. They can earn the cash they need to
supplement what they get off of their places, and after the forests are
restored, there will be a permanent and continuing industry through
the wise use of the forest resources.
Mr. Sparkman. That is all I have.
Mr. Torkelson. May I make just one more statement ?
Mr. Sparkman. Yes.
migration from CLTT-OVER region 1910-193
Mr. Torkelson. What I am going to say is probably in our written
statement, but you may not have read it. We made an estimate as to
the extent of migration by taking the 1910 census for each of the
counties and applying to that a figure which would represent the
natural increase if there had been no migration. Then we took the
1930 census, and the diiierence between those two figures represents
a very close approximation of the net migration. That shows that
during that period there were about 78,000 j^eople who migrated out
of there.
Mr. Parsons. Out of how larg^e a region ^
1040 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. ToRKELsoN. Out of a region of approximately 1(5.500,1)00 acres,
Miiioli would be — well, my arithmetic is not so very s:ood — it would
be somethinir like 25.000 square miles. That was gradual, over a long
period.
Mr. Parsons. Over a 20-year period?
Mr. ToRKKi.soN. Over a 20-year period. Then Ave also have S(mie
other figures. AVe took figures which gave the school census in those
same counties, by counties for the years 1927. 1930. 1933, and 1936.
There was an increase of 1933 over 1930. but a decrease of 1936 under
1933. which would indicate that there was a migration into the region
between 1930 and 1933 and a migration out of it again from 1933 to
1936. That would seem to me. at least, to coincide with the change in
the economic condition.
^Ir. Paesoxs. AYhere did these people go. these 78,000 people?
Mr. ToRKELSox. AVell. from 1910 to 1930. 1 think they went out into
Minnesota and the Dakotas mostly, and to the western part of the
country.
Mr. Parsons. Were they, in the main, lumberjacks in the early days,
and wcKxlsmen ?
Mr. ToRKELSOX*. I think they were people who were dependent upon
the lumber industry in one way or another.
Mr. Parsons. Directly or indirectly ?
Mr. ToRKELSOx. Yes.
^Ir. Parsoxs. Of course, we still had a little frontier in 1910.
Mr. Rowlands. Our logging mills were still running then.
^Ir. ToRKELSox. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. Yes: especially going westward.
Mr. ToRKELSON. The lumber business hit its peak about 1900. It
had increased up to that time. After 1900 it deci-eased. There still is
some lumber business up there, but it is very small in comparison with
what it was.
Mr. Parsons. What reconnnendations have you to make as a result
of your studies, if you have any to make to us. that would be helpful
to the committee in framing legislation to aid in the migrant problem ?
Mr. ToRKELSox. Well, speaking now primarily for that particular
region, we feel that we will be able through the institution of these
policies of which we have spoken, to take care of the population that
is there. AYe do not believe any large amount of migration into there
is desirable.
^Ir. CYriis. Is there any coming now?
Mr. ToRKELsox. I think 'Mr. Rowlands is more familiar with that
than I am. directly, from direct knowledge. I would prefer to have
him testify on that.
Mr. Curtis. Yery well.
Mr. RowLAXDS. As I mentioned, the Kentuckians are coming into
Forest County. Polish people are coming into Armstrong Creek.
Mr. Parsoxs. Where are they coming from ?
Mr. Rowlands. Chicago and Gary.
^[r. Parsoxs. Why are they coming out there ?
Mr. Rowlands. For various i-easons. To get away from where they
are. and cret back on the land. Here is a conununitv in settlement bv
INTERSTATE MirxRATION 1041
people of the same luuioiiality. same beliefs, and so forth. We have
had a little difficulty in the pa"^st with people, for instance, on W. P. A.
in Chicago. As a matter of fact, Taylor County enacted a zoning
ordinance for one specific purpose, and that was to prevent 40 families
on W. P. A. in the city of Chicago from coming into the town of Rib
Lake. We worked with them on their zoning program. They liad
set it aside temporarily. Finally, 2 years afterwards, zoning was pro-
posed and discussed in Taylor County. One man came into the
county ; when the town chairman found out that he was there, he asked
him why he selected land in that particular town. He said, "Well, I
was on W. P. A. in Chicago. They said to come up here." He said
that there were :39 other families coming up. The chairman asked
him what he and the other 39 families were going to do on this land.
He said. "Well, the Government can take care of us up here, just as
well as the Government can take care of us in Chicago." The chair-
man woiidered what government he meant — the Federal Government,
State government, county government, or town government. How-
ever, the town chairmen of several adjoining towns met and called a
special meeting of the county board and at a special meeting of the
coimty board of supervisors, they unanimously enacted their zoning
ordinance to prevent that kind of migration.
Mr. ToRKELSON. May I finish my statement?
Mr. Curtis. Yes.
KECOMMEXDATIONS
Mr. ToRKELSON. As to what policies Ave would recommend for your
committee, it may be that this will not directly affect the matter of
migration, but it Avill gi-eatly aid in securing proper adjustment of the
situation up there as it exists now. If the three-point program recom-
mended by tlie Northern Lake States Regional Committee is carried
out, it will assist tremendously. The first step toward that is this
purchase of the isolated submarginal holdings of settlers, until all of
those who can be moved and who should be moved, are moved out of
where they are to some place where they would be better situated.
]Mr. Parsoxs. With respect to the land from which you would move
these people, would you sell tliat to the Federal Government for
forestry purposes ?
Mr. ToRKELSOx. The Soil Conservation Service is already engaged
in that program. A year ago. in the summer of 1939. I believe, when
they had $75,000 available for such purchasing, they made 75 of these
purchases, which Avas at an approximate acreage cost of $1,000 per
purcliase per family. This year there is only $15,000 available. Here
we have this splendid organization set up, just hitting its stride, and
suddenly it stops — out of gas. AVe think we ought to continue that
until the problem is settled, and then through Mr. Rowland's zoning
ordinance as fast as the situation is cleared it is tied down and held
there.
Mr. Rowlands. I should like to add one thing.
Mr. Parsons. You may proceed.
1042 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Rowlands. In the Great Plains States, T understand from
the Soil Conservation Service that where they liave been buyinir tliese
isolated or abandoned farms, nonagricultural lands, it has cost
somewhere in the neighborhood of three or four thousand dollars per
unit to buy it. In the South it has cost a little more. In Wisconsin
it is about $1,000 per unit.
The Federal Government can get more return on a dollar invested
in land purchase in Wisconsin, for the reason that no one else can get
in there and set up another habitation, because it is zoned. It is
futile to buy out isolated settlers where there is no protection to pre-
vent new isolated settlers from coming into that region adjoining the
land purchased.
Mr. Parsons Yes.
Mr. Rowlands. That is. protection and preservation are established
in these local ordinances.
Mr, Parsons. Are there any other questions?
Mr. Curtis. Did you say you had some people coming in from the
drought area, the Dust Bowl?
Mr. Rowlands. There have been some coming into the northwestern
counties in Wisconsin from the drought States.
Mr. Curtis. Have they been able to work into your economy, or
have they been on relief?
Mr. Rowlands. They have been able to work into our economy
pretty well and the Farm Security Administration has been helping a
lot in locating them. The county agricultural agents have been as-
sisting in working out plans for them.
Mr. Curtis. They come from the Dakotas, I take it ?
Mr. Rowlands. The Dakotas. and some from Kansas and Nebraska.
Mr. Curtis. That is all.
Mr. Parsons. Thank you very much, gentlemen. You have made
quite a contribution to the committee. Your statements which you
have submitted have been received as part of the formal record.
(Whereupon. Mr. Rowlands and Mr. Torkelson were excused.)
TESTIMONY OF EAPHAEL ZON, DIRECTOR, LAKE STATES FOREST
EXPERIMENT STATION
Mr. Parsons. The next witness will be Dr. Zon.
Will you state your full name and your address and your official
position and who you represent for the record, please Dr. Zon?
Mr. ZoN. Raphael Zon, Lake States Forest Experiment Station.
Mr. Parsons. Congressman Osmers will interrogate you, Dr. Zon.
Mr. Osmers. You have submitted a statement, Dr. Zon, covering
conditions in the so-called cut-over region.
(The statement referred to is as follows:)
Statement by Raphael Zon, Director, Lake States Forest Experiment Station
A statement on the CTJT-OVER region BREEDING PL.\CE OF MIGRANTS
The problem of migratory destitute workers has two aspects :
1. The constitutional right of American citizens to migrate from one State to
another to seek economic opportunities, and in this search for employment to be
protected from uncontrolled exploitation.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1043
2. Eliminating the causes of migration at their source by increasing the eco-
nonjic opportunities in the distressed area.
The first lies in the field of labor legislation ; the second, in the field of
economics.
This statement deals with the causes of distressed conditions in the cut-over
region \A-hich makes it a potential reservoir of migration and offers some sugges-
tions for improving the economic opportunities at home and thus eliminating the
causes of migration.
The cut-over reyion. — The northern portions of Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minne-
sota, comprising, roughly, 76 counties, are commonly referred to as the cut-over
region. The name suggests that it was once a timbered region from which the
timber has been removed. This is not entirely true. Mining of copper and iron,
and to some extent farming, play an important part in its economic life and are
also responsible for the present economic condition.
The region includes some 57 million acres (about one and one-half times as
large as the New England States) and has a population of about IM2 million
people.
The region is, for the most part, still "wild land area." Although some 16,-
fX)0,U<JO acres, or more than one-fourth, are classed as land in farms, actually
only 10 percent is in cropland. About 5,000,000 acres are in cities, villages,
rights-of-way, and bogs and marshes. The remainder, between 40 and 45 million
acres, is forest land of one kind or another. The cut-over region is therefore of
very recent agricultural settlement and of low density of population. The popu-
lation density ranges from 15 to 30 persons per square mile, and for most of the
area there are less than 2 families per section of land. Its distressed condition,
therefore, does not arise from overpopulation in relation to its resources.
The cut-over reyion once a land of opportunity. — The cut-over region has been
richly endowed with natural resources — forests, minerals, lakes, and large acre-
ages of soil suitable for agriculture. Barely 50 years ago, people from all parts
of the East flocked into this region to work in the copper and iron mines and the
lumber camps. In 2 decades, between ISSO and 1900, the population of the
northern Lake States increased 245 percent. At its height the copper industry
emploved 16,000 workers in Houghton County, Mich., alone, and the population
of about 75,000 was almost wholly dependent upon it. In 1910-11 iron mining
employed about 35,00U men. In the early nineties, during the period of highest
lumber production, there were some 155,000 men employed in the primary and
secondary wood-using industries. About the same time there was started a land
boom, largely stimulated by land companies.
Today the cut-over reyion — a distres-sed area. — In the course of three or four
decades the economic picture has completely changed. The copper mines, which
at their peak produced 96 percent of all the copper in the United States, in 1933
produced only 9 percent and employed less than 2.000 workers. The decline in
copper mining- antedates the depression, because while production of copper in
the United States as a whole increased from 1933-34, that of the Michigan
copper mines declined still further. Michigan copiier mining is deep, high-cost
mining, mucli more costly than in Utah and the Southwest, and cannot compete
with the low-cost mines recently discovered in Africa and elsewhere.
The iron mines in the Lake States still produce about 88 percent of all the
iron mined in the United States, and yet employ today fewer men. As a result
of the mechanization of the mines and greater output per man, only 18,000 men
were employed in 1937, against the 35.000 men employed in 1910, although 50
percent more ore was taken out in 1937 than in 1910. Some estimates place the
number of miners who can never be reemployed at 5,000, who must be moved
elsewhere or provided with somp other work. For the most part, the men who
came to the region to engage in mining were stranded there after the demand
for their labor disappeared, because there was no other region to which they
could move.
The most disastrous consequence, however, was brought about by the cutting
out of the timber. Some 90 percent of the original merchantable timber is now-
gone, and most of the large sawmills have been closed. And in the course of
the next 5 or 10 years, the fev/ remaining large mills will exhaust their timber
supplies. The number of workers employed in logging and sawmilling has shnmk
from 117,000 in 1890 to 12.ono in 1933 and even this not on a full-time basis.
Since lumbering was the prevailing industry of the region, a more detailed
account of its rise and decline may ))e desirable. (The three charts present
graphically the rise and fall in lumber production and employment.)
1044
INTERSTATE MIGKATIOX
u 1 1_ « I -' 1
I860 1870 1880 1890 1900 1910 1920 1930 I940
Figure 1. --Lumber production in tho Lake States, by State
I869 to 1938.
(Basis, U. S. Bureau of the Census data.)
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
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/
/
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/
/
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. ..
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7
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y' ' "^
■ >e?
■^_ pj
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pops. • '
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kiii
I860 1870 1880 I890 1900 1910 1920 1930
1940
Figure 2. --Lumber production in the Lake States, by species,
I869 to 1938.
(Basis, U. S. Bureau of the Census data.)
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
1045
Figure 3. Employment in logging and milling in the Lake
States, 1859 - 1937.
120
1
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IIU
/
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iuu
/
\
V
90
/
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au
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7o
6o
50
40
30
/
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1
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1 ,
20
/
1/
lu
1859 1869 1879 If
Years
1899 1909 1919 1929 1937
Source of Data: U. S. Bureau of the Census reports for
industrial group entitled "Lumber and timber products
not elsewhere classified".
The rise and decline of the Imnher inditstrii in the Lake States. — Rapid ex-
ploitation of the vast timber supplies of the Lalce States came as a result of
demands for lumber for rural and urban construction throughout the Middle
West, brought about by the unprecedented farm and industrial expansion which
commenced after the Civil War.
Prior to 1860 there had been considerable land cleared for farming in the
southern portions of the Lake States, and many small sawmills, mostly water-
IQ^Q INTERSTATE MIGRATION
power, were cutting lumber foi- local and even some Eastern and ('entral States
markets. Between 1840 and 1860. the nnmber of sawmills increased from 615 to
1,561. In the latter year, Inmber production exceeded 500,000,000 feet. This was
only a beginning. By 1870 the use of steam power in the sawmills made possible
a tremendous increase in productive capacity, while railroad transportation in-
creased the range of the lumbering operations and accessibility to markets. In
1870, 2,500 sawmills reported production t)f 3,500,000,000 board feet of lumber.
During the next three decades the lumber industry came rapidly into maturity
and passed into old age. Peak production in ]\Iichigan was reached in 1889 at
nearly 5,500,000.000 board feet. Wisconsin and Minnesota reported their greatest
output in 1899 at over 8% and 2^, billion board feet, respectively. Although
in 1889 the peak of lumber production had not been attained in either Minne-
sota or Wisconsin, the combined total of the three Lake States was at a peak of
nearly 10,000,000.000 board feet of luml)er.
Just as the development of the lumber industry was the inevitable result of
expanding demands for lumber in the Middle West, so the collapse of the industry
was made Inevitable by the pressure of an almost limitless market on a limited
resource. The decline of lumbering was as catastrophic as the rise of the in-
dustry had been spectacular. In 20 years, from the peak of 1889, lumber produc-
tion dropped nearly 45 percent. During these declining years of the pine industry,
expanded markets for hemlock and hardwoods helped to cushion the fall in
Wisconsin and Michigan. In Minnesota the progress of exploitation was some-
what behind that in the other two States, but there were no extensive forests of
r.orthern hardwoods to take up the slack when the pine was gone. The full
effect of timber exhaustion in the Lake States was not felt until after 1929. Up to
that time the development of other wood-using industries, notably pulp and
paper and furniture, which utilized larger amomits of labor per vuiit of raw
material in processing and production than does the lumber industry, helped
to make up for the employment lost in the decline of lumbering. The census of
1890 indicates peak employment of 155,000 men in the primary and secondary
wood-using industries, of wliom 117,000 were employed in logging and sawmills.
By 1929 the number reported employed in logging and sawmills had shrunk to
82.000, but there were still a total of 182.000 men employed in all kinds of wood-
using industries. After lJ)2fi the slump in employment, wages, and value of
products was serious. In 1983 employment in all forest-products industries in
the Lake States had fallen to 69',000 men. Salaries and wages dropped from
$182,000,000 in 1929 to a low of $57,000,000 in 1933, and the gross value of products
of all wood-using industries dropped from $6S0,000-,0O0 in 1929 to $249,000,000 in
1933.
The consequences of forest destruction. — The most far-reaching effect of the
disappearance of the forest was not so much in the drastic curtailment of the
opportunities for labor as in profoundly changing the whole pattern of land use
and the economic and social structure of the connnunities that v:ere left behind.
It gave rise to a new economic j)henomenon, namely, tax delinquency on an
unprecedented scale, brought about by the abandonment of millions of acres of
cut-over land by its original owners.
Tax delinquency today is at the root of most of the economic difiiculcies of the
region. The private exploitation of the timber resulted in the destruction of this
valuable resource over a large area of the northern Lake States without replacing
it by new timber growth or diverting it into permanent agriculture or other
protitable use. The pioneering psychology of the early lumbermen, the belief
that the forests were inexhaustible, the prevailing notion that all the cut-over
land would eventually be needed for agricultural settlement, together with un-
controlled forest tires that swept the cut-over land year after year, left in their
wake millions upon millions of acres of devastated land, and millions upon millions
of acres covered with inferior forest growth. When the attempts to dispose of
the cut-over land to settlers, after many tragic experiences on the part of settlers,
had collapsed, the owners of the land began to abandon this land for nonpayment
of taxes. The local communities, in the heyday of logging, had issued bonds to
tinance improvement of roads, schools, public buildings, and even drainage of
swamps for future agricultural use. Today, with the decline of the lumber
industry, the collapse of the land boom, many communities are left saddled with
debts beyond their capacity to pay.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
1047
In e.irlier years, taxes were not bnrfloiisome on local residents, even though
the iKipnlation was sparse. Timberland and industries formed a broad enough
tax base to absorb most of the load, but as the forest hind was cut over and the
land abandoned and stricken off the tax I'olls, the tax base greatly diminished,
speculative values of land disappeared. In the 14 northeastern counties of Min-
nesota, for instance, and this is cliaracteristic of the entire cut-over region, the
peak valuation occurred in 11.^:^0, when it was Jipproximately .$235,000,000. By
1036 the valuation of thp same properties declined to $100,000,000. a shrinkage of
57 percent, and furthei- decline is imminent. Land abandonment by timber owners
and land speculators has left the farmer, home owner, and businessman to bear
the burden.
While taxable values have been decreasing, governmental costs have not been
reduced, but, on the contrary, new costs have been added for relief, old-age
assistance, and emergency programs. To raise the minimum amount of funds
necessary to oi)erate the local governments, usually .$150,000 to .$600,000, requires
a levy of 10 to 30 percent of the assessed value of the taxable property. All of
the northeastern counties in Minnesota, except .St. Louis County, have average tax
rates of over 100 mills.
Tax delinquency, once started, forms a vortex into which other properties not
yet delinquent are being constantly sucked in. As more land becomes tax de-
linquent, heavier taxes are shifted to solvent taxpayers, driving one after another
into delinquency. Several counties have been able to collect no more than one-
half of the taxes levied during the last 12 years. Some individual township
and school districts reached a delinquency of over 00 percent.
In some counties of northern Minnesota, as much as 05 percent of their gross
land area is found to pay no taxes to the support of the local government.
This throws the full burden of running the local government on the remaining
35 percent of the land, and on the homes, Industries, and business establish-
ments. Part of even this remaining property is delinquent for 1 to 4 years of
taxes and threatens to reduce even further the already meager tax base.
Of the forty or forty-five million acres of so-called wild land in the cut-over
region, 21,000,000 acres, or nearly one-half, have become tax delinquent. Of these,
about 13,000,000 acres have been purchased by the Federal Government for
national forests, or have become State or county forests. The remaining
8.000,000 acres are practically no man's laud. Without State and Federal aid,
the local governments would be unable to carry on their functions.
Lahor miyrafion. — No other region illustrates the relation between migra-
tion and economic opportunity as does the northern Lake States. As has
already been shown, when mining and lumbering were Iior.ming there was a
great influx of labor into the region. During the 30 years between 1880 and
1010 the population had more than quadrupled. Beginning with 1920, when
the output of the copijer mines shrank almost to nothing and mechanization
of the iron mines threw out more tli'an half of their workers, and the sawmills
began to close, there began a gradual exodus of workers from the i-egion. As
a result of this there was a decline in the population between 1920 and 1930
in most of the cut-over region. Beginning, however, with 1930, when the
opportunities for employment in the cities as a result of the industrial depres-
sion had decreased, there became manifest a back-to-the-land movement. In
northern Minnesota, for instance, some 17,.50O people had moved to farms be-
tween 1929 and 1934. A slight increase in population has been noticed since
1930 in northern Wisconsin and northern Michigan. Some came from dis-
tressed agricultural ai-eas in North and South Dakota, and a considerable group
came from cities of over 10,000 population. This increase in the population of
northern counties was due to a return to the land of people who had failed to
find work in the cities and to the discouragement of the normal tendency of
young people to drift toward the cities.
Most of the migrants were industrial laborers seeking refuge during the
depression. A lai'ge number of these migrants are squatters and are past 45
years of age, and almost half of them are on relief.
The counties into which there is an influx of such migrants naturally resent
their coming, since it increases their relief load and tends to create rural slums.
Some of these migrants actually buy little farms with the hope that they can
make a living. , The re.sult is that there are a great mar.y small farmers" who
260370— 40— pt. 3 16
;[Q4g INTERSTATE MIGRATION
must seek work off the farm to make a precarious living. Some of them are
only farmers in name.
There are today in the cut-over region whole communities that are simply
stranded— potential migrants for the first opportunity that presents itself, but
at present immobile because they have no place to go.
Employment situation.— K survey made by the United States Forest Service
in 1939 showed that within the 76 counties of the cut-over region there are
412,400 breadwinners. Of these, 337,000 have some regular work — in public
forests, Federal and State, 500; in forest industries, 58,170; in farming, 111,010;
in other industries, largely mining, 72,460; in other services and trade, 94,860.
The remaining 75,000 heads of families are on relief of one kind or another.
Of these, iS,000 are permanent relief cases, 45,000 are on W. P. A., and 15,000
are unemployed and in need of work. In other words, about 18 percent of
the entire population is dependent on W. P. A., relief, or in need of work.
The road to eeonomic independence. — The present economic plight of the people
in the northern Lakq States, in my opinion, must be ascribed not so much to
lack of natural resources as to the lack of opportunitie.s for the large mass of
the population, misdirected land-use policies of the past, and the feeble efforts
of today to correct these policies. The northern Lake States region has been
used for a long time as a backward colony from which raw materials were
exported without contributing to any extent to the permanent l)uilding up of
the region itself. Although the cream of the natural resources has been largely
skimmed, there are still ample resources left in the cut-over region to supix^rt
a larger and more prosperous population than there is now. provided these re-
sources are developed principally for the benefit of the people living in the
region.
Here are some of the opportunities : Timber growing in most European
countries is recognized as an economic opportunity, as agriculture, for instance,
is in this country. From 50 to 100 acres of ir.tensively managed forest give
permanent employment to 1 man for a year. We cannot exi)ect at present such
intensive timber culture in rliis country, but let us a«ume that if we adopted
some semblance of ])ernianent forestry, a thousand acres could give employment
to 1 person per year. This is from 10 to 20 times the size of the forest area
which gives employment to 1 man per year in Europe. The 45,000,000 acres of
forest land would immediately provide permanent employment to some 45,1100
persons in addition to the 58 000 persons already gainfully employed in the
woods, mills, and pulp and paper plants.
Seventy percent of the entire volume of commercial timber in the cut-over
region is in industrial or speculative ownership (this does not include tlie farm
woods). Half of this is in the form of large private holdings of 10,000 acres
or more and is controlled by about 75 owners. Whoever controls these timber
resources controls to a large extent the economic destiny of the region. Should
they choose to adopt timber growing as a permanent policy, the economic sta-
bility of the people working in the woods, in the mills, and other wood-using
industries could be more or less assured. If they choose to follow the old
policies, as most of them do, of cutting out and getting out, the economic se-
curity of labor will be made still more uncertain.
Here is an actual concrete example of what management of forests on a
permanent basis means to the lumber industry and the workers in it.
Sweden has a forest area of about 02,000.000 acres — not very much larger
than the forest area in the whole Lake States, which is about 55,000.(100 acres.
Only for a few years, some 40 years ago, when we still had abundant forests,
did "the annual cut reach 10,000,000,000 feet, and it has been declining ever
since. The annual cut today from these 55.000,000 acres is about I14 billion
board feet, including pulpwood. The Swedish forests, after more than a
century of logging, are today producing 7,000,000,000 feet of lumber each year,
and this yield is maintained and even increased from year to year; while in
the Lake States, if the present destructive processes still go on. our 55,000.00i)
acres soon will not be able to maintain an annual cut of even 1,(K10,000,000 feet.
In Sweden today, with a forest acreage not nmch greater than ours, there
are employed some 400,000 men in cutting and transporting logs, and in the
manufacture of lumber and pulp, as against 69,000 in the forest industries of
the Lake States.
ixterstatf: migration 1049
Sweden, besides meeting all its own domestic needs, exports forest prfiducts to
the value of $45.0(]0,()< a year. The Lake States not only do not meet their own
domestic needs, but import some lumber and large quantities of pulpwood and
pulp.
Take the mining industry. Millions of tons of ore are shipped out from the re-
gion to be smelted somewhere in Pittsburgh or Cleveland. Suppose at least some
of this ore were processed into pig iron and steel within the region itself. What
new opportunities would be created for the employment of local labor! At the
same time it would enhance the prosiiects of utilizing the low-grade ore which
at present remains unused.
The agricultural potentialities of the region are only scantily developed, since,
as has already been pointed out. only about 5,700,000 acres are in actual cultiva-
tion. It is possibly risky to encourage expansion of agriculture in the old
conventional wa.v — an individual farmer on a lirtle piece of land struggling to
make a living through his individual efforts, when even farmers on good land
farther south have a hard time of it. With cooperative farming, however, on
land leased from the Federal Government, States, or counties, with no mort-
gages facing the settlers, with machinery bought cooperatively, and cooperative
marketing of the products, with pai-t-time work in the woods, mills, or some
other industi-ies, a new chapter might be written in the agricultural de\elopment
of the region.
The recreational industry could be given a new impetus if facilities were
created for the low-income groups to enjoy the summer climate, the woods, the
lakes, and the fresh air of the northern Lake States region. At present, with
half of the population of the United States earning less than a thousand dollars a
year, these I'ecreational facilities, except for those living in the immediate vicinity,
are largely an inaccessible territoi-y.
Most of all, however, the region needs some new industries utilizing the
available raw materials. There are many small forest industries which could be
built up in the cut-over region today if they were encouraged and even sub-
sidized at first by the public itself. The slashings left after logging which feed
the forest fires c-onld be converted into a source of readily utilizable fuel. The
souvenirs made of wood and offered to the tourists, now coming largely from
Japan, could and should be all manufactured in the region itself. With wood-
craft skill not yet entirely obliterated in the native population, especially among
the hidians. many useful articles could be made of local wood.
While fuel wood for fireplaces is becoming a luxury in the larger cities, mil-
lions of cords of it rot in the woods only 100 or IfiO miles away. With splendid
highways and highly developed trucking, it is hard to believe that some way
could not be found by which this large supply of fuel could be made availal)le
to a large mimber of people in the towns and cities. The possibilities of utilizing
such species as aspen and jack pine in the manufacture of pulp, paper, and
cellulose in general could be greatly increased, as well as utilization of these
woods for construction purposes of all kinds. If private capital, because of the
risks involved, is not attracted by these pos.sibilities, the public has enough at
stake to justify making the initial moves itself.
The moral of it all is that the present sparse population of the cut-over region,
much of the unemployment, and the financial difficulties of the people are not
due to lack of resources but to lack of opportunities, and man-made impediments
for the natural growth of the region. No satisfactory solution can be attained
except on the basis of wealth production, adequate supp<n't, and a reasonable
standard of living within every area in which people live. It may be agricultural,
industrial, oi- commercial, or a combination, so long as it is really productive.
Under favoi-jible conditions, I cannot see why the cut-over region could not support
a density of jiopulation similar to that of Sweden. Finland, and Norway, and
that means a population of from two to two and one-half million.
TESTIMONY OF RAPHAEL ZON— Resumed
Mr. OsMERS. I wonder if yon would just tell the committee about
the area, briefly, based on the statement which you have submitted and
which is included in our record.
Mr. Zox. Yes.
]^Q50 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
AREA AND BACKGROUND OF CUT-O^'ER REGION
Mr. OsMERS. Would ^^oii tell us about the area and extent of the
regicai. to begin Avith?
Mr. ZoN. The cut-over region is confined to the northern portions
of Michigan. Wisconsin, and Minnesota. It embraces an area esti-
mated at from 76 to 80 counties.
Mr. OsMEKs. In those States?
Mr. ZoN. In those States. It contains about 57,000,000 acres.
Mr. OsMERS. Yes.
Mr. ZoN. About one and a half times the size of New England.
Mr. OsMERS. Would you describe briefly the history of the region
when it was known as the Land of Opportunity?
Mr. ZoN, Well, as we all know, these Northern States have been
endowed by nature with very rich natural resources, lands, waters,
forests, fish and what not. During the period of greatest development
of those resources, there was a tremendous influx of population from
the East.
Mr. OsMERs. Yes.
Mr. ZoN. During the period between 1880 and 1900. in two decades,
the population increased almost 250 percent. Everything was going
fine. Then, because of the uncontrolled exploitation of the natural
resources and some other economic factors that entered in. the whole
thing again went down, and there started a great exodus of a great
deal of the population.
Mr. OsMERS. Tell us this. Dr. Zon: What is the present economic
condition of the cut-over region?
Mr. ZoN. Pretty bad. Here is a land which I still consider to be
very ricli in natural resources. Of course, they cut out the pine. That
was the basis of the early lumbering industry. We still have some
other kinds of trees which in the old days were never considered eco-
nomically important, which are coming into use now because of the
development of the paper industry.
In Sweden and Norway the country would still be considered to be
a country flowing with milk and honey, whereas we consider it
a distressed area. We cannot consider a region which produces 88
percent of all the iron mined in the United States as a terrible country.
Mr. OsMERS. No. Obviously not.
]Mr. ZoN. And yet conditions are very bad.
RISE AND DECLINE OF LUMBER INDUSTRY
Mr. OsMERS. Would you describe for us the rise and the decline of
the lumber industry, and what consequences that has brought with it ?
Mr. ZoN. Well, the lumber industry started in the latter part of the
nineteenth century, and in the course of about 40 years, it ran its
course. I thir.k it reached its peak about between 1890 and 1900, or
something like that. At that time there were 117,000 workers, lumber-
jacks, working in the sawmills and woods.
Mr. OsMERS. AVliat Avas the number?
Mr. ZoN. 117.000. In 1933 there were only 12,000, and those were
working on a part-time basis. The worst part of it is not the shrinkage
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1051
in the miniber of people emj)loyed, })Ht the destruction of the forests.
This has clianoed the whole land's use. Most of this land was owned
by large lumber companies. After they cut off the timber the land
was burned, and they tried to pass it over into agriculture. For a
decade or so, they tried to force land settlement, which collapsed.
Then they began to abandon this land. Today there are out of the
57,000.000 acres. 21.000.000 acres that are tax delinquent.
Mr. OsMERs. 21,000.000 acres are tax delinquent?
Mr. ZoN. Yes. That means the owners have abandoned that land.
When the owners abandon land, the remaining property which is still
subject to taxation has to carry all of the cost of the government.
That increases taxes tremendously. In Mimiesota. some parts of Min-
nesota, it resulted in an increase in hundreds of mills. There are
some counties in which 70 percent of the land is tax delinquent, and
the remaining 30 percent has to carry all the normal costs of the
county.
Mr. OsMERS. During the depression, was there an influx of labor
into that land ?
INCREASED IX-MIGRATION ] 9 3 d-l » 3 5
Mr. Zox. During the period from 1930 to 1935 people who had gone
to the cities began to flock back to the land. Every abandoned shack
and every abandoned lumber camp was occupied. They were mostly
people who had come from industrial cities, mostly cities over 10,000
population.
Mr. OsMERS. I see.
Mr. Zox. Now, there has been a gradual increase in population, but
that onh' increases the rural burden, because these people are chiefly
squatters. The}^ do not have any money. They become a burden on
the county, and the county does not like that.
Mr. OsMERS. Some people consider the cut-over region as a stranded
area, which raises the problem of migration. What are your views on
that?
Mr. Zox. That is perfectly true. There are about 5,000 miners that
would like to go somewhere, but there is no place to go. They are
stranded.
Mr. OsMERS. What do the people in that area think of these migrants
that come in there ?
Mr. ZoN. The counties do not like them, because they become a bur-
den, a relief burden. They do not like it, because it is not bona flde
settlement of anv kind. If opportunities increase in the city, they will
all go back to the city.
LAND OWNERSHIP
Mr. OsMERS. What is the present situation with regard to land own-
ership there ? You touched on that brieflv before.
Mr. ZoN. Out of 51,000,000 acres, 21,000^000 acres are tax delinquent.
Mr. OsMERs. It is tax delinquent, but not publicly owned?
1052 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. ZoN. Not all of it. Some of it went to the National Government,
for national-forest purposes. The States and counties got it back via
the tax-delinquent route. In Wisconsin, tax-delinquent land reverts
to the counties. In Michigan and Minnesota it reverts to the State.
Mr. OsMERS. Yes.
Mr. ZoN. Some of this land that reverted to the State and counties
was made into county forests and State forests, but a great deal of it,
8,000,000 acres out of the 21,000,000 acres, is practically no man's land.
Mr. OsMERs. I see.
Mr. ZoN. It is a very peculiar thing. The title to that tax-delinquent
land is a very peculiar thing. In Minnesota tax-delinquent land
reverts to the State, but the county retains a 90-percent equity of the
taxes, and the State cannot do anything with the land until the State
has extinguished the 90-percent equity of the county. The county
does not do anything with it. It is no-man's land.
Mr. OsMERS. In your statement you have some rather sensible rec-
ommendations as to what steps can be followed in this area to elimi-
nate it as a source of migration.
Mr. ZoN. Yes.
RECOMMENDATIONS FOR FEDERAL ACTION
Mr. OsMERS. I wonder if you would tell the committee, particularly,
of course, with respect to what the Federal Government can do, what
can be done toward stabilizing that area?
Mr. ZoN. Now. there are about 31,000,000 acres of land still pri-
vately owned, and I think about 15,000,000 acres are farm lands. The
other 60,000,000 acres of the best land belongs to large lumber com-
panies. About 75 large companies own practically all of the remain-
ing virgin timber in the Lake States.
TIMBER CONSERVATION
If the bad results come as a result of this uncontrolled exploitation
of the forests, it stands to reason that the reverse side of it is to stop
that reckless cutting of the timber. I personally believe the first thing
for the Federal Government to do. because I do not see how the State
can do it, is somehow to prevent the devastation of the remaining
marketable timber in that region.
Mr. OsMERs. You mean, under the heading of national conservation
of resources?
Mr. ZoN. Yes.
Mr. OsMERS. Or in that spirit?
Mr. ZoN. Yes. That could be worked out with the lumber com-
panies and the Government. The Government could provide for
fire protection, and they in return will undertake not to devastate
their land, and not to cut it clean so the land may continue to produce.
Mr. OsMERs. In the State of Minnesota, would it be possible to take
people and settle them on the land Avhich they have acquired through
tax delinquency?
Mr. ZoN. Yes. They could under the law. and that is what they are
doing, but they are doing very poorly. Under the law, when the land
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1053
reverts to the State, they have a ri^rht to chissify the land. Land
suited for conservation is no longer to be sold, but land they think has
agricultural possibilities, they can sell again.
Mr. OsMERS. I see.
Mr. ZoN. Since all the county commissions are really the owners
of the land, to get some revenue from the land, they try to sell that
land again.
Mv. OsMERS. Whether it meets those requirements or not ?
Mr. ZoN. Yes. They are very lenient in their classification.
Mr. OsMERS. Of agricultural landi'
Mr. ZoN. Yes. Most of this land is covered with timber. The law
requires that the land and the timber should be valued separately.
That is not always done. The result is that many people buy this
land under very liberal conditions. It used to be $80 per forty. They
have reduced it to $20. You have to pa}^ down only 10 percent, and
that means you can get it for $2. Lots of people pay the $2, get the
land which has timber, devastate the rest of the timber, and then
abandon it again, so the land comes back again in worse condition.
Mr. OsMERS. In other words, they get the timber for $2 ?
Mr. ZoN. They get the timber for $2 and that is all there is to it.
Some county commissioners are doing a better job. Most of the
counties, howevei", are so hard up they are anxious to put the land on
the tax roll. Therefore they will do anything to sell it. That is iii
Minnesota.
Mr. OsMERS. If a resettlement program was entered into, what
agency or agencies would be best fitted to deal with that program '(
Mr. ZoN. It has been stated that the National Government has
5.000.000 acres of national forests in the three States.
Mr. OsMERs. In this area?
Mr. ZoN. In this Lake States region ; yes.
Mr. OsMERS. I mean in the cut-over area.
Mr. ZoN. In the cut-over area ; yes.
Mr. OsMERS. Yes.
EESETTLEMENT ON GOVERNMENT-OWNED LAND
Mr. ZoN. Now, it seems to me, instead of excluding settlers there
from the portions which are good agricultural land, I do not see why
the Government could not let people settle on that agricultural land.
Mr. OsMERS. You mean in the national forests?
Mr. ZoN. In the national forests; yes.
Mr. OsMERs. Yes.
Mr. Zox. Of course, they might not make an economic existence from
agriculture, but by working in addition on roads, at fire protection,
reforestation, cutting, and so forth, they could make a fairly good
living.
Mr. OsMERS. Yes.
Mr. ZoN. Some national forests are doing that. Some settlers who
live outside of the forest have been told that they could go over
into the forest, where they gave them land of better quality than they
had outside. There we have arranged our work in the Avoods in such
a Avay as to provide work for those settlers. This we could have
1054
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
done on a mucli laroer scale, except' for the C. C. C. When they
bring the C. C. C. in there, it interferes \yith that policy.
Mr. OsMERS. Yon mean by sending the C. C. C. boys nito this area,
possible employment for local residents has been eliminated (
Mr. ZoN. Not eliminated, bnt rednced greatly.
Mr. OsMERS. Rednced?
Mr. ZoN. Yes. While I believe a great deal in the C. C. C. itself,
in this particnlar instance it did conflict with the interest of the local
people. They had as many as 30,000 C. C. C. boys working in the
Lake States region.
Mr. OsMERS. What type of work have the C. C. C. boys been doing
in this area — the cut -over region?
Mr. ZoN. Thev have been helping to cnt forests, build roads and
trails, bnild telephone lines, cut out trees, helping with the fire pro-
tection, and helping with the planting of trees. They have planted
many millions of trees, and have done similar work.
Mr. OsMERS. In your statement, which I have read with a great
deal of interest, yoii make some reference to a program that is now
being used in Sweden.
Mr. Zox. Yes.
Mr. OsMERS. Would you care to tell the committee the nature of the
forest conservation program there?
Mr. ZoN. The main thing is, of course, not to cut more timber
than the forest can grow. That is exactly the reverse of what hap-
pened here. W^e simply cut off the timber vxithout regard to its
growth. In Europe, and in Sweden especially, they restrict then-
cutting. The strange part of it is that some of the best forests are
forests belonging to private companies— mining companies, for
instance.
Mr. OsMERS. In Sweden?
]Mr. Zox. In Sweden. The forests have been developed, of course,
in the course of many years. You cannot do it overnight, because it
takes manv years for trees to grow. They have gradually developed
a system of' forestry which they do not take otf any more than the
forest grows and the forest can "maintain. In that way the mills can
provide stable employment. They do exactly what I have suggested
they could do here. They deliberately invite settlers to come within
the Government forests and provide them with parcels of land, so they
have part-time agriculture and part-time forest work.
Mr. OsMERS. Does the Government pay in cash for the work they
do in the forest, to augment their income from tlie agricultural end
of their operations?
Mr. ZoN. Yes.
Mr. OsMERS. How long does it take for a program of that nature, if
it were instituted in a cut-over region such as we are discussing here,
before the cycle has been completed and the trees are ready to harvest,
so to speak ?
Mr. ZoN. Well, we have a hiatus right there. We have very little
marketable timber left. Then we have a hiatus there of trees of
middle age
Mr. OsMERS. Yes.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1Q55
Mr. ZoN. Or middle size.
Mr. OsMERs. Yes.
Ml'. ZoN. Tlien we have, as a result of fire protection, a larjje acreage
of second orowth comiiis: on. If we could carry ovei* the next
20 years, we will have lots of timber again in the Lake States. The
whole thino- is to cut the old timber sparingly, and in that way spread
it out for the next 20 years.
]Mr. OsMERS. Yes.
Mr. Zox. In that way you will give the middle-aged trees a chance
to come in to the marketable size, so they will be ready for commercial
use. I think if we could somehow tide over for the next 20 years we
can gradually approach a permanent basis.
Mr. OsMERS. You think it would take a 20-year cycle, starting from
5'our present situation?
Mr. ZoN. Yes.
Mr. OsMERs. Of course, along with that goes a very wide planting
program ?
Mr. ZoN. Yes.
Mr. OsMERS. As you harvest the old trees, you plant new trees ?
Mr. Zox. There are 7,000.000 acres to plant up.
Mr. OsMERS. 7,000,000 acres to plant up?
Mr. ZoN. Yes.
Mr. OsMERs. There is just one other phase of the cut-over regic^n
I think the committee would like to hear about. That is the iron
mining.
^Ir. ZoN. Yes.
Mr, OsMERS. There is considerable iron mining going on there today,
is there not?
Mr. ZoN. Yes ; 88 percent of all iron ore mined in the United States
is mined right there.
LABOR SITUATION IX MINIXG IXDUSTRY
Mr. OsMERS. Tell me about tlie labor situation in the mining
industry.
Mr. Zox. It is pretty bad.
Mr. OsMERS. Why is that ?
Mr. Zox. There are two things: copper mines and iron mines.
Mv. OsMERs. Yes.
Mr. Zox. The copper mines in Utah and the copper miries in the
Southwest ai"e not so dee]5. They can be mined much more cheaply.
African copper also has been coming into competition. African cop-
per can be laid in Liverpool at 5 cents a pound. The cost of mining
in northern Michigan was never less than Ifi^ cents.
Mr. OsMERS. Never less than III/2 cents ?
Mr. Zox. No. At one time the copper mines in Michigan ]:)roduced
96 percent of all the copper. Today they produce only 9 percent. At
one time there wei-e about 75,000 people who depended on copper mines.
Today they employ about 1,200.
Mr. OsMERS. Going back to iron mining, you said that the iron mines
produce 88 percent ; is that correct ?
lQ5g INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. ZoN. The iron mines are still very active. As a resnlt of tech-
nological improvement, electrification and so forth, the ontpnt of
the iron has increased abont 50 percent in the last 30 years. Yet
they employ fewer people. Where, in 1910, the iron mines employed
35,000 people, today with a 50-percent greater ontpnt, they employ
only 18,000 people. '
Mr. OsMERS. Do yon have any idea or any figure in mind as to the
total population of the area we have been discussing, which embraces
these 76 counties?
Mr. ZoN. About one and a half million people.
Mr. OsMERS. Only 18,000 of them are employed in
Mr. ZoN. That is the total population.
Mr. OsMERS. Yes. The mining population is about 18,000?
Mr. ZoN. Yes.
Mr. OsMERS. Which, of course, is very, very small compared to the
total?
Mr. ZoN. Yes. I personally think — perhaps I am too o])timi>.tic—
but I believe the cut-over region can stabilize its present population
and, in addition, if we are wise in our land policy, Ave can make it
a land of greater opportunity. I do not see why this region — if you
compare it with Finland, Norway, and Sweden — could not support
two and a half or three million people. Their land is not a bit better
than our land.
Mr. OsMERs. In other words, you think, with ])roper planning,
the future of the cut-over region is bright ?
Mr. ZoN. Not onl}- as a reservoir for migrants, but really to estab-
lish a population.
Mr. OsMERS. That is all I have.
Mr. Parsons. Are there any other questions? (No response.) The
statement which you have pre]iared. Dr. Zon, entitled, "A Statement
on the Cut-over Region, Breeding Place of Migrants,"' has been re-
ceived as part of our formal record.
Mr. Parsons. Than.k you very much. Dr. Zon.
(Whereupon Dr. Raphael Zon was excused.)
TESTIMONY OF ANDREW BATJES
Mr. Parsons. The next witness will be Andrew Batjes. Congress-
man Curtis will interrogate you.
Mr. Curtis. State your name and address for the record, please,
Mr. Batjes.
Mr. Batjes. Andrew Batjes.
Mr. Curtis. Speak louder, please, so the reporter can hear you.
Mr. Batjes. Andrew Batjes.
Mr. Curtis. How do you spell your last name?
Mr. Batjes. B-a-t-j-e-s.
Mr. Curtis. What is your address ?
Mr. Batjes. 1327 George Street.
Mr. Curtis. How old are you?
Mr. Batjes. Forty-one.
Mr. Curtis. Are you married ?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1057
Mr. Batjes. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Do yon have any chili Iren?
Mr. Batjes. Five.
Mr. Curtis. How old is the oldest one ?
Mr. Batjes. Seventeen.
Mr. Curtis. How old is the yonnfjest one?
Mr. Batjes. A year old.
Mr. Curtis. How many of them are in school?
Mr. Batjes. Two.
Mr. Curtis. The two older ones?
Mr. Batjes. No. The oldest one is working.
Mr. Curtis. How far in school did she go?
Mr. Batjes. It is a boy.
Mr. Curtis. A 17-year-old boy?
Mr. Batjes. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. How far did he go ?
Mr. Batjes. As far as seventh grade.
Mr. Curtis. Are yon employed now?
Mr. Batjes. No, sir.
Mr. Curtis. How long have you lived in Chicago?
Mr. Batje-s. I was born and raised hei-e on the West Side.
Mr. Curtis. At what age did yon begin working ?
Mr. Batjes. Fourteen.
Mr. Curtis. What did you work at then ?
Mr. Batjes. I worked for Marshall Field & Co. as an errand boy in
the store.
Mr. Curtis. At what age were you married?
Mr. Batjes. Twenty-two.
Mr. Curtis. What were you doing then ?
Mr. Batjes. Working with a plumber, as plumber's helper.
Mr. Curtis. What year were you married?
Mr. Batjes. 1922.
Mr. Curtis. How long after 1922 did you have continuous employ-
ment, or nearly so?
Mr. Batjes. Up to 1931 or 1930. Then I went on relief, since, and
have been back and forth.
Mr. Curtis. Up to 1932 you were working, usually doing plumbing
work ?
Mr. Batjes. Yes; and truck driving and things like that.
Mr. Curtis. Were you one of the, what we might term, skilled
plumbers ?
Mr. Batjes. No; just a helper.
Mr. Curtis. What wages did you get during that time?
Mr. Batjes. Seventy-five cents an hour.
Mr. Curtis. How many hours did yon work?
Mr. Batjes. Eight hours.
Mr. Curtis. Yon were raising your family at that time?
Mr. Batjes. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Were you buying a home?
Mr. Batjes. No.
Mr. Curtis. You were living
IQ^g INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Batjes. Just renting.
Mr. Curtis. Did you live in an apartment house?
Mr. Batjes. We just rented a flat.
Mr. Curtis. Did you say it was in 1933 that you became unemployed I
Mr. Batjes. No; 1930 or 1931.
Mr. Curtis. 1930 or 1931 ?
Mr. Batjes. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Have you had any work in private enterprise since then?
Mr. Batjes. Not to speak of ; no.
Mr. Curtis. You have had a little bit now and then ?
Mr. Batjes. Noav and then.
Mr. Curtis. Have you ever souoht public relief?
Mr. Batjes. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. When was the first that vou had to do that?
Mr. Batjes. About 1931.
Mr. Curtis. Did they put you on relief?
Mr. Batjes. No ; I got a box at that time.
Mr. Curtis. You got Avhat ?
Mr. Batjes. A box. They were dishing out boxes at that time.
Mr. Curtis. Boxes of provisions ?
Mr. Batjes. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Well, did you get any W. P. A. work?
Mr. Batjes. I didn't get any W. P. A. work until 1933. Then I got
W. P. A. work.
Mr. Curtis. Are any of your children working?
Mr. Batjes. Just one boy.
Mr. Curtis. What does he make ?
Mr. Batjes. $10 a week.
Mr. Curtis. Judging from the information given me when you were
interviewed, I take it you left to go away to get some farm v.ork when
you could ?
Mr. Batjes. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. What States did you work in ?
Mr. Batjes. Wisconsin.
Mr. Curtis. What kind of work Avere you doing on the farm ?
Mr. Batjes. I was doing general work there, picking potatoes, corn,
helping to thresh, build silos, and things like that.
]?^Ir. Curtis. Would it be year around work?
Mr. Batjes. No. Seasonal work.
Mr. Curtis. Seasonal work?
Mr, Batjes. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. You would not take your family with you. or did
you ?
Mr. Batjes. I had the family out there ; yes, sir.
Mr. Curtis. Did you establish a residence there?
Mr. Batjes. Yes, sir.
Mr. Curtis. How long did you live in Wisconsin?
Mr. Batjes. From June until about November.
Mr. Curtis. Of what year?
Mr. Batjes. 1939.
Mr. Curtis. June until November?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1059
Mr. Batjes. Yes.
Mr. C'lrtis. You made enough money to get along during that
time ?
Mr. Batjes. I done everything I could; yes.
Mr. CrRTis. Were you able to make enough wages to have any-
thing saved up when you came back?
Mr. Batjes. Xo: I even inquired for relief out there.
Mr. Curtis. Did 3'ou get any ?
Mr. Batjes. I got some.
Mr. Curtis. In Wisconsin ?
Mr. Batjes. Yes; about $86 worth.
Mr. Curtis. Did you make any incjuiry about the possibility of
your getting relief if you left the State and then came back?
Mr. Batjes. Yes. I came back and I inquired about relief. They
told me they couldn't give me any.
Mr. Curtis. Why would they not give you any relief ?
Mr. Batjes. Because I left the State, and I liad to be here 3 vears
in order to get relief.
Mr. Curtis. Did you have any talk with the relief officials before
you went ?
Mr. Batjes. Yes: I did. I told them about my case. They said,
"If you leave, it is of your own accord."
Mr. Curtis. They told jon if you wanted to take this seasonal
employment, you could ? '
iMr. Batjes. Yes. I was trying to better nwself , see ?
Mr, Curtis. Yes. At the'^time you talked with them, did you
have 111 mmd just going for a few months of farm work?
Mr. Batjes. Xo : I intended to stay there.
Mr. Curtis. I see.
Mr. Batjes. But it turned out that it happened to be one of
these lean seasons.
Mr. Curtis. You feel from your experience that where people are
on relief and have an opportunity to go some place and get a job,
they should be permitted to do so without losing their residence «
Mr. Batjes. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Is that what you think ?
Mr. Batjes. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. If you had not wanted to work, vou would have stayed
right here on relief in Chicago ?
Mr. Batjes. Yes. I would have stayed, if I knew something like
that was going to happen. I would never have left.
Mr. Curtis. How nuich relief were you getting at the time you left
for Wisconsin ?
Mr. Batjes. $55 a month.
Mr. Curtis. $55 a month?
INIr. Batjes. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Your boy was making $10 a week?
Mr. Batjes. He wasn't working at that time.
Mr. Curtis. He was not working at that time?
Mr. Batjes. No.
Mr. Curtis. What did you have to pay for rent ?
1060
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Batjes. Then I ojot $17.
Mr. Curtis. $55 and $17?
Mr. Batjes. No. I got a surplus check of about $6, besides my $55.
Mr. Curtis. For surphis commodities?
Mr. Batjes. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. From the food depot?
Mr. Batjes. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Did you ever work for any of that, or was that direct
relief ?
Mr. Batjes. No. That was direct relief.
Mr. Curtis. You could have stayed there and continued t(j draw
that, but vou wanted to earn what you could?
Mr. Batjes. I wanted to get off of relief. I figured I could do
better for myself, and give somebody else my job.
Mr. Curtis. Did the people in Wisconsin raise any question about
your not being a resident there ?
Mr. Batjes. They did in a way ; yes.
Mr. Curtis. Did'thev deny you any relief?
Mr. Batjes. No: thev didn't. I got it right off the bat. They
asked me if I intended 'to go back. I says, "Yes." I says, '"Yes; if
there is any possible chance."
Mr. Curtis. How long did you draw relief in Wisconsin ?
Mr. Batjes. About a month.
Mr. Curtis. About a month ?
Mr. Batjes. That is all.
Mr. Curtis. What made you decide to come back to Chicago?
Mr. Batjes. Well. I couldn't make a dollar no more, so I decided
to come back.
Mr. Curtis. Were you in a small town ?
Mr. Batjes. We were in a small town.
Mr. Curtis. Was the cost of living as great as it is in Chicago ?
Mr. Batjes. The food was ; yes.
Mr. Curtis. Bent is cheaper ?
Mr. Batjes. Yes. i , i «
Mr. Curtis. You had no work to speak of since you came back here ?
Mr. Batjes. No. I have been selling flowers, peddling telephone
books, and things like that.
Mr. Curtis. Do vou have any work in sight now ?
Mr. Batjes. No.*^ I have an application in at these here employment
Mr. Curtis. Are you trained in any particular other than the
plumbing training you have had?
Mr. Batjes. I can drive a truck and do labor work.
Mr. Curtis. How are you living now?
Mr. Batjes. I have a flat now.
Mr. Curtis. Where do you get your money?
Mr. Batjes. Charities,
Mr. Curtis. What charity organization is assisting you?
Mr. Batjes. United Charities.
Mr. Curtis. United Charities?
Mr. Batjes. Yes ; the north side branch, at 1001 Leland Avenue.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION ^qq^
Mr. Curtis. How much do they provide vou ^
Mr. Batjes. $8.58.
-Mr. Curtis. xV week?
Mr. Batjes. A week.
Mr. CuTtTis. Your boy makes $10 a week?
Mr. Batjes. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Does he stay at home ?
Mr. Batjes. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Is he a good boy ?
Mr. Batjes. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. He helps you get along?
^Ir. Batjes. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. I think that is all.
^Ir. Parsons. Are there any other questions, gentlemen? [No re-
sponse.] Your case is similar to many others that we have heard
about. We are trying to get a cross-section of all of these three to
lour million people that are traveling up and down the country
1 our case is illustrative, no doubt, of thousands of them. Thank you
Mr. Batjes. " '
(Whereupon, Mr. Batjes was excused.)
TESTIMONY OF CHARLES B. MARSHALL, DIRECTOR. DIVISION OF
GENERAL ADMINISTRATION, INDIANA DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC
WELFARE, INDIANAPOLIS, IND.
Ar^^iV^"?^?i^®- ^^'"^ ^'^"^^ witness will be Mr. Charles B. Marshall
Mr. Marshall, state your full name, address, and official position for
the record.
Mr. Marshall. Charles B. Marshall, director, division of creneral
administiation. Indiana Department of Public Welfare, Indianapolis
Ind. '■ '
c.^P" f t^®?.^®- ^*^" ^^'^ representing, in part, the Governor of the
btate of Indiana at this hearing?
^h\ Marshall. I shall introduce a letter from the Governor for
the record together with a study prepared bv the dei)artment of
public Avelfare.
Mr. Parsons. Without objection, they are received for the record.
State of Indiana.
Hon. John R. Tolan, i^ t •
Chairman, Select Committee to luvcstir/ate the
Interstate Migration of Destitute Citizens,
House Office Building, ^Yashington, D. O.
Dkar Congressman : I am enclosing a copy of a study of the migrant-worker
problem m Indiana for the attention of your committee. Indiana is planning
to send two representatives from the State welfare department to testify at thp
Chicago hearing. ^ ^^ <.^
The department of public welfare and the State employment service working
together, have conducted a rather thorough study of the problem. Also the
regiona director of the Farm Security Administration has given a great deal of
regK.uil du-ector of the Farm Security Administration has given a great deal of
attention to migrant workers, and should be able to present valuable material
]^Qg2 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
The views of the State of Indiana will be presented by officials of the State
department of public welfare.
Very truly yours,
M. Clifford Town send.
Mr. Parsons. I believe you have a short statement \\hich you desire
to present to the committee. You have made some helpful suggestions
here. I have looked it over, and I think it contains some rather bene-
ficial information. Will you introduce it at this time?
Statement by the Indiana Uepartment of I'ublic Welfare
Outline
1. Migration aud trausient activity in Uidiana.
2. Uiterstate mis^ration trends as reflected by place of birth data.
3. Summary of importance of indigents and mental cases to Indiana classified by State
from which imported.
4. Summary of deportation of indigents from Indiana by township trustees.
5. Place of' birth of new cases accepted for assistance under the old-age, blind, and depend-
ent-cliildreu programs.
6. Population born in other States living in Indiana.^
7. Population born in Indiana living in other States.^
Migration and Transient Activity in Indiana
Effective evaluation of the transient and migration problem as it affects Indiana
is difficult to determine due to scarcity of data related to the subject. In con-
sidering the problem it should be remembered that all migrants are not of a
dependent type and do not necessarily constitute a relief problem.
With regard to relation with other States, tlie migration figures in Indiana
show a fairly even balance. In accord with the early population movements,
which were from east to west in this country, the early census figures sliow that
the population born in other States living in Indiana came predominantly from
the Eastern and Southeastern States, with Kentucky and Ohio being particularly
large contributors, and it was not until the liMlO census that any sizeable numbers
were sliown as natives of any State to our west. The proportion is still negligible,
however, as compared to the peoples of eastern origin.
With regard to migration from the State of persons born in Indiana, this move-
ment has always been primarily to the west, although Ohio and Micliigan, to our
north and east, receive a sizeable number of Hoosier migrants. The number of
persons born in Indiana and living in other States is greater than the number of
persons born in these States and living in Indiana in all except the Southeastern
States (Florida excepted due to its resort nature). It is particularly interesting
to note the great excess of natives of Kentucky and Tennessee who live in
Indiana over Hoosiers living in Kentucky and Tennessee.
It may be safely assumed that many individuals who leave their native State
to go to another do so because of inability to make a livelihood in their present
location. It is uncertain as to how many of tliese individuals become dependents
in their new home, although data collected by the State department of public
welfare reveal that of the total number of new cases accepted for assistance
under the security aid program in Indiana from November 1936 through December
1939, over 23 percent were born out of the State. Since many old-age assistance
recipients, although not natives of the State, may have lived here for many years,
a mote accurate measure of dependency among recent migrants may be obtained
by considering aid-to-dependent-children cases where all children are by require-
ment less than 16 years of age. Of the total children granted assistance during
this period only 13.2 percent were born outside the State. Five and seven-tenths
percent of these children were from our neighboring States of Illinois and Ken-
tucky. The percent of the total individuals granted assistance during the cal-
endar year 1939 who were born out of the State was higher in the border coun-
ties than in the balance of the State.
The effect of transients and migratory workers on the general relief program is
uncertain. Township trustees, who administer the general relief program in
Indiana, are loath to grant assistance to individuals who do not have legal settle-
ment in their township. However, a sizeable number of these nonlegal residents
1 A series of graphic maps, covering the census decades from 1850 to 1930, inclusive,
retained in the files of the committee.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION lQg3
rocoivt' assistance each iiKJuth according to the reports of the Indiana Unemploy-
ment Relief Commission. It should be pointed out in this connection that these
individuals are not all interstate transients but that many of them are indi-
viduals who do not have lesal settlement in the township in which they are
residinji lint have legal settlement or are residents of the State.
Records are somewhat incomplete with regard to deportation and importation
of indigents in this State since trustees may deport indigents to their place of legal
settlement without clearing through the State department of public welfare.
However, it is known tvom a 2-mouth sample taken in the latter part of 1938
by tlie Governor's commission on unemployment relief that trustees deport ap-
proximately lo5 persons per month, wliile records of the State department of
public welfare show that l,."i92 dependents and 50 mental patients were returned
to this State during the period May 1938 through July 1940 upon authorization
of the State depai'tmenr.
Data on the number of interstate transients in the State at present are unavail-
able, although records of the Governor's commission on unemployment relief
showed from 7r>0 to 2,246 receiving care on selected dates in 1934, while the
unduplicated total of transients receiving care in 1 month during the period for
which the Commission has data ranged from 143 in December 1933 to 13,339
in May 193."). The transient-aid prngrani was discontinued shortly after this
latter date.
Transients and migratory workers traditioniilly' follow the seasonal crops
through the country. This condition exists in Indiana, particularly in the can-
ning industry, although there is also a lesser demand for harvest labor by farmers
in rush seasons. This excessive seasonal demand for labor has brought into
existence certain conditions which tend to throw the economic situation in the
ct)unties of the canning belt out of balance and which may create social problems
in the near future.
In some of the smaller southern counties the canning indiistry demands a
labor supply greater than that available in the community. There" is, therefore,
an immigration into these counties for approximately 2 months' work. These
laborers come from neighl)oring counties to some extent, but they also come from
neighboring Southern States. The living conditions of these people are poor,
and they spend very little of their earnings in the community. The Indiana
State Employment Service reveals that the canning industry is highly seasonal
and can support its employees for only 4 months of each year. During the
remaining 8 months there is practically no activity in this industry. A part of
these migrant workers return to their homes with their savings from the 4
months' work, and the balance remain in the community, many to become
dependent on public aid. Data collected by the State planning board for Johnson
County show that at the time the board's study was made (1935) almost one-
third of the relief population of Johnson County was of Kentucky origin. It is
significant that the majority of these families were located near canning factories
in the county.
Remedies for problems of this type are extremely difficult. It is vital to the
canning industry that they have a large supply of cheap labor when their crops
are ready, and laws prohibiting interstate movement cannot be passed since the
harmful results of legislation of this type might offset benefits. However, some
measure of regulation of migration of these mai'ginal families is desirable in
order that they do not become too great a liability to the communities to which
they migrate.
Data collected by the United States Census Bureau show that although there
were more Indiana-born persons living in other States than there were individuals
born in other States living in Indiana in both 1920 and 1930, the differeee between
these numbers in 1930 was 53,601 less than in 1920, a reduction of 19 percent.
These figures indicate that the trend of migration is now more toward Indiana
than from Indiana to other States.
According to the 1930 census, the States showing the greatest excess of their
native born living in Indiana over Indiana-born residents of their State were
Kentucky, Tennessee, and Pennsylvania, the excess for Kentucky being 115,414
individuals. States reporting the greatest excess of Indiana-born residents over
individuals born in their State living in Indiana were California, 94,205; Kansas,
30,933; and Illinois, 29.083.
Over the 10-year period fi'om 1920 to 1930 the States showing the greatest
numerii-al increase in net migration to Indiana were Kentucky, Missouri, and
Kansas, while the States in which the number of Indiana-born residents increased
most in this period over natives of tliose States residing in Indiana were Cali-
fornia. Ohio, and Michigan.
, 2W370— 40— pt. 3 17
1064
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Ititerstate migration, trends as reflected by place of hirth data
[1920-30 U. S. Census]
State
Total.
New England:
Maine
New Hampshire
Vermont
Massacliusetts
Rhode Island
Connecticut
Middle Atlantic:
New York
New Jersey--
Pennsylvania
East North Central:
Ohio
Illinois
Michigan
Wisconsin
West North Central:
Minnesota
Iowa
Missouri
North Dakota
South Dakota
Nebraska
Kansas
South Atlantic:
Delaware
M ary land
District of Columbia
Virginia
West Virginia
North Carolina
South Carolina
Georgia
Florida
East South Central:
Kentucky
Tennessee
Alabama
Mississippi
West South Central:
Arkansas
Louisiana
Oklahoma
Texas
Mountain:
Montana
Idaho
Wyoming
Colorado
New Mexico
Arizona- . -
Utah
Nevada
Pacific:
Washington --
Oregon
California
In the United States (State not
reported)
Born in outlying possessions
Indiana-
born indi-
viduals
living in
other
State?
1920 census
286
174
194
2.390
329
983
12, 248
3,735
12, 351
94, 662
152, 246
74, 937
12, 487
12, 692
33, 033
53, 587
6,802
6,335
20, 622
54,310
276
2,189
4,234
3,434
3,890
1,169
716
2,740
8.467
31,918
7,705
3,742
2,403
16, 176
3,408
35, 432
19, 516
9,859
6,044
•3,813
20,974
3,289
4,032
2,029
801
23,000
14, 347
61, 249
Individ-
uals liv-
ing in
Indiana
born in
other
States
624
371
665
2,639
431
1,020
14, 668
2,633
30, 353
135, 070
108, 662
26, 838
7,466
2.762
8,864
15, 004
1,024
761
3, 422
8,109
374
2,934
437
10, 359
5. 513
6,273
948
3.312
114,575
21,772
5,070
3,212
2,660
1,429
1,964
2,450
546
203
213
1,427
234
185
212
59
697
456
1,464
7,469
92
Net mi-
gration
Indiana-
born indi-
viduals
living in
other
States
+338
-fl97
-f471
+249
+102
+37
+2, 420
-1,102
+18,002
+40, 408
-43, 584
-48,099
-5,021
-9, 930
-24, 169
-38, 583
-5, 778
-5,574
-17,200
-46,201
+98
+745
-3,797
+6,926
+ 1,623
+5, 104
+232
+572
-7,773
+82, 657
+14.067
+ 1,328
+809
-13,516
-1,979
-33, 468
-17,066
-9,313
-5,841
-3, 600
-19,547
-3, 055
-3, 847
-1,817
-742
-22,303
-13,891
-59, 785
+7, 469
+92
1930 census
923, 322
311
206
224
2.902
302
1,375
17, 280
5,624
14,711
114,611
172, 902
109, 967
14. 673
10, 583
23,654
44,231
4,542
4,635
15, 022
41,117
305
2,749
3,597
3,061
4,301
1,899
561
2,725
16, 362
34, 699
7,387
3,659
2,415
11,830
3,525
29. 570
20, 569
4,636
3,298
18, 082
3,090
6,012
1,627
851
20, 891
13, 601
96, 172
Individ-
uals liv-
ing in
Indiana
born in
other
States
i 694, 287
675
404
598
3,040
396
1,250
13,411
2,679
30, 835
122, 388
143, 819
35, 393
11,202
5,751
13,910
21,268
2,239
1,546
4,212
10, 184
336
2,474
560
9,828
7,456
5,456
1,292
6,730
1,681
150,113
33. 216
8,706
8,736
6,822
2, 654
3,725
4,823
1,092
341
427
2,321
409
261
322
71
910
577
1,967
5,475
306
Net mi-
gration
-229,035 +53,601
+364 j +26
+198 +1
+374 1 -97
+138 -111
+94 1 -8
-125 -162
-3, 869
-2, 945
+ 16, 124
+7, 777
-29,083
-74, 574
-3,471
-4, 832
-9,744
-22,963
-2,303
-3,089
-10,810
-30, 933
+31
-275
-3,037
+6, 767
+3, 155
+3, 557
+731
+4, 005
-14,681
+115,414
+25, 829
+5, 047
+6, 321
-5,008
-871
-25,845
-15,746
-5,884
-4, 295
-2,871
-15,761
-2,681
-5, 751
-1,305
-780
-19.981
-13,024
-94, 205
+5, 475
+306
I Does not include foreign-born and born at sea, abroad.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
1065
Summary of importations of indigents and mental cases to Indiana classified by
State from which imported,'^ May 19.18 to July 25, WJtO
State:
California
Michigan
Ohio
Illinois
New York
Iowa
Kansas
Colorado
Pennsylvania
Wisconsin
Washington
Oregon
Texas
Arizona
Missouri
Minnesota
District of Columbia.
Kentucky
Number
imported
582
237
180
146
91
55
38
36
35
32
31
20
20
18
16
15
14
13
State:
Alabama
Tennessee
Maryland
South Dakota-
Massachusetts.
Florida
New Jersey
Connecticut
Louisiana
Georgia
Nebraska
Virgijnia
Utah
Idaho
New Mexico. _.
Oklahoma
Number
imported
10
10
9
9
7
7
5
4
4
3
3
3
2
1
1
1
Total 1,658
1 Represents number of individuals for which consent was given to deporting State to return the indi"
viduals to Indiana because they had legal settlement in this State.
Summary of deportation of indigents from Indiana by township trustees during
the months of November and December 19S8^
Number
Deported to (State): of person.^
Kentucky 113
Tennessee.
Illinois
Michigan..
Georgia
Florida
Ohio
Mexico
Missouri- _
New York.
Colorado. -
Nebraska..
41
25
20
9
8
7
5
5
5
4
4
Deported to (State) — Con.
Pennsylvania _ _ _ _
Number
of persons
3
West Virginia
Alabama
California
Minnesota
Texas
3
2
2
2
2
Oklahoma
South Dakota
1
1
District of Columbia _
1
Wisconsin
1
Total 264
' Prepared from reports of the Governor's commission on unemployment relief, which were received for
these months only.
Place of birth of new cases accepted for assistance under the old-age assistance,
aid to dependent children, and blind assistance programs during period Nov 1
1936, through Dec. 31, 1939 ' '
Old-age assist-
ance
Aid to depend-
ent children
Blind assist-
ance
Total, all pro-
grams
Place of birth
Num-
ber of
per-
sons
Per-
cent
Num-
ber of
chil-
dren
Per-
cent
Num-
ber of
per-
sons
Per-
cent
Num-
ber of
per-
sons
Per-
cent
Total
52, 935
100.0
48, 408
100.0
2,221
100.0
103, 564
100.0
Indiana
35, 977
2, 356
4,226
546
3,563
4,530
1,737
68.0
4.5
8.0
1.0
6.7
8.5
3.3
42, 034
1,372
1,388
473
632
2,445
64
86.8
2.8
2.9
1.0
1.3
5.1
.1
1,579
106
208
11
105
171
41
71.1
4.8
9.4
.5
4.7
7.7
1.8
79, 590
3,834
5,822
1,030
4,300
7,146
1,842
76.8
3.7
5.6
1.0
4.2
6.9
1.8
Illinois .
Kentucky.. ,
Michigan
Ohio
Other States in United States
Foreign born
1066
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Place of birth of new cases accepted for oJd-age assistance in Indiana counties
that border on other States during period Jan. 1 through Dec. 31, I9S9
Total
Indiana
Illinois
Ken-
tucky
Michi-
gan
Ohio
Other
States
in
United
States
Foreign
born
Total for state . . .-
18,317
100.0
7, 775
100.0
12, 366
67.5
4,609
59.3
867
4.7
522
6.7
1,489
8.1
668
8.6
206
1.1
145
1.9
1,142
6.3
541
6.9
1,642
9.0
841
10.8
605
Percent of total ......
3.3
449
5 8
67
635
35
217
74
88
108
351
258
48
238
88
101
153
325
73
603
217
55
24
76
97
175
101
99
92
664
257
42
19
615
275
999
48
137
321
46
375
28
147
70
54
64
231
179
29
199
69
73
96
254
54
140
122
35
18
61
50
118
77
91
59
345
192
33
11
313
129
520
29
109
189
1
27
1
4
_.
1
11
2
lO'
._
25"
2
79
9
9
is"
20
2
2"
30
22
' i"
33
44
147
7
1
14
--
2
54
3
24
1
5
54
13
14
13
3
51
10
2
20
3
1
6
13
2
29
1
is"
11
7
3
186
15
39
24
28
1
14
1
3
21
..
--
14
13
13
130
3
2
1
5
27
39
4
4
3
1
15
1
13
5
32
1
3
5
47
1
9
1
Allen
34
Benton .. . ..
Clark
1
2
7
36
14
1
12
4
9
4
10
5
213
24
2
DeKalb
5
Elkhart - -
8
Floyd ... --
5
1
1
13
LaOrange ....
1
Lake .
105
45
5
Ohio
2
5
5
6
1
6
74
16
1
1
58
13
208
6
3
31
Porter
3
1
7
1
14
15
1
Randolph- . _ ....
1
7
58
1
._
2
i7
59
6
1
3
15
15
43
4
1
83
9
Union . ...... .
9
Vermillion
59
40
1
Warrick . .
Wayne ....
54
5
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
1067
Place of birth of citildren in new cases accepted for aid to dependent children in
Indiana counties that border on other States during period Jan. 1 through Dec.
31, t9S9
Total
Indiana
Illinois
Ken-
tucky
Mich-
igan
Ohio
Other
States
in
United
States
Foreign
born
Total for stale -..-_.
9,982
100.0
4,894
100.0
8,569
85.8
4,008
81.9
326
3.3
229
4.7
326
3.3
184
3.7
110
1.1
80
1.6
131
1.3
58
1.2
511
5.1
326
6.7
9
Percent of total . .
.1
Total for border counties
9
Percent of totaL . -
.2
26
316
24
93
40
55
36
125
44
40
196
42
24
98
208
31
1,071
199
36
5
46
82
52
59
23
29
446
99
19
9
502
93
435
26
100
165
24
275
17
75
39
41
33
116
35
29
164
29
24
78
191
27
734
166
34
4
44
69
46
50
23
23
385
91
14
8
401
74
390
21
92
142
2
2
Allen
6
2
3
6
16
1
9
11
1
19
Benton . -
Clark .
'
2
Crawford
Dearborn
1"
5
3
DeKalb... _
2
2
2
Elkhart
1
15'
4
4
12
Floyd
Franklin . . ...
1
7
3
Gibson .-. _ .
9
Harrison ...
Jefferson . .
--
17
4
1
1
4
9
6
..
2
4
Knox
LaOrange
Lake -..
107
12
2
10
1
12
192
14
7
LaPorte . ... .
Newton
Ohio .. ..
1
--
4
2
--
1
Porter .. _ ... ...
4
i
3
Posey
Randolph . ^
2
5
1
Steuben
5
1
3
4-
17'
2
5
1
1
St. Joseph -.
31
1
Switzerland. ... . ... . .
1
Union
1
3
Vanderburgh .. ..
15
9
25
5
1
67
2
5
4
14
4
12
\erminion ..
1
Warren .
Warrick
1
6
3
..
3
9
Wayne .
1068
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Place of birth of new cases accepted for blind assistance in Indiana counties that
border on other States during period Jan. 1 through Dec. 31, 1939
Total
In-
diana
Illinois
Ken-
tucky
Michi-
gan
Ohio
Other
States
in
United
States
Foreign
born
Total for State ..
311
100.0
133
100.0
203
65.3
74
55.6
13
4.2
7
5.3
40
12.9
23
17.3
1
.3
1
.7
13
4.2
6
4.5
30
9.6
13
9.8
11
3.5
9
Percent of total
6.8
1
5
1
1
Allen - - -
3
1
Clark
6
5
3
1
4
6
2
3
1
2
3
9
1
11
4
2
5
2
1
2
3
1
3
1
2
1
6
4
1
EJkhart
1
1
1
Floyd
2
1
2
1
2
1
3
1
3
1
1
5
1
Ohio
4
3
1
7
4
2
1
5
1
5
2
5
1
3
1
1
1
1
15
8
4
3
16
1
2
8
7
1
2
4
3
3
1
2
3
1
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
1069
J'Idce of hirth of iiew cases accepted for assistance in Indiana counties that
border on other States under the old-age assistance, aid to dependent children,
and blind assistance programs during period Jan. 1 through Dec. SI, 1939
Total
Indiana
niinois
Ken-
tucky
Mich-
igan
Ohio
Other
States
in
United
States
Foreign
born
Total for State
28,610
100.0
12, 802
100.0
21, 138
73.9
8,691
67.9
1,206
4.2
758
5.9
1,855
6.5
875
6.8
317
1.1
226
1.8
1,286
4.5
605
4.7
2,183
7.6
1,180
9.2
626
Percent of total
2.2
Total for border counties
467
Percent of total
3.7
Adams
Allen
94
956
59
316
119
146
145
480
308
90
437
131
127
254
542
105
1,685
420
91
29
126
179
234
160
127
122
1,115
358
61
28
1,132
368
1,450
75
239
494
71
651
45
224
114
97
98
349
217
59
366
99
99
175
451
81
875
291
69
22
108
119
168
127
119
83
733
284
47
19
722
203
917
51
203
335
1
33
1
4
..
1
13
2
25'
_.
32'
2
187
21
11
26'
26
2
2'
38
27
..
48
53
175
12
2
14
...
8
74
4
34
1
5
63
18
18
25
3
70
15
2
30
4
1
6
16
2
32
2
7
1
18
11
11
3
257
15
45
1
25
37
1
25
1
..
4
26
..
1
1
-.
1
8
23
20
15
135
3
2
1
8
27
40
4
11
6
1
15
1
14
5
45
1
3
1
5
66
1
11
1
35
Benton
Clark
.
Dearborn ..
2
9
39
17
1
21
4
9
6
16
6
408
38
2
DeKalb.
5
Elkhart
8
Flovd - . - .
S
Franklin .
Gibson-
Harrison. _
1
Jay..- -..
JefTerson _. .
1
Knox
13
Lagrange...
1
Lake _.. .. ... ... ..
117
La Porte .
45
Newton ..
5
Ohio
Perry .. .
2
8
5
7
1
6
106
16
2
1
75
17
221
6
6
. 40
Porter
7
1
2
8
1
19
15
Posey
1
Randolph
Spencer ...
1
Steuben. .
7
75
3
._
5
6
" 3'
22
61
1
4
18
15
44
4
63"
1
St. Joseph
84
Sullivan
10
Switzerland- . . ._
Union.- . . _
Vanderburgh
9
Vermillion _. ..
fiO
Vigo
42
Warren _ ....
1
Warrick
Wavne .
5
TESTIMONY OF CHARLES B. MARSHALL— Resumed
Mr. Marshall. Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce for the
record a letter from Mr. Leo X. Smith, legal adviser of the Indiana
Township Trustees Association, together with an accompanying-
study dated August 12, 1940. The department of public welfare
takes no responsibility for the statement, but we are interested in
having the view of the 1,016 township trustees presented to the
committee.
Mr. Parsons. We will be very glad to receive it as part of the
i-ecord.
2070 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
iNDIANAPOr.TS, IND.. Allf/KSt It. ]!>-'i<).
Mr. John H. Tolan, M. C,
Chairman, CoDimiftcc on Inicrsiate
Migration of Destitute Citizens. Wasliiiif/ton. D. C.
Dear Sir: At the request of Tburman A. Gottschalk. of the departineiit of
public welfare of Indiana, I am sending you lierewith a statement on the matter
of migration of indigents.
This statement was prepared by Charles M. Dawson, secretary of the Indiana
Township Trustees Association, and myself, as its legal adviser. In Indiana,
township trustees have jurisdiction over ti-ansients and poor relief.
We appreciate very much the opportunity to make this statement inasmuch as
the trustees as a group are directly affected by anything that may be done.
Very truly yours,
Leo X. Smith.
Statement for Select Committee of House of Representatives of United States
Congress on Interstate Migration of Destitute Citizens
Prepared by Charles M. Dawson, secretary of Indiana Township Trustees Asso-
ciation, 909 Riviera Drive, Indianapolis, and Leo X. Smith, 148 East Market Street,
Indianapolis, legal adviser. Indiana Township Trustees Association, member of
Indiana Senate, 1933 to 1937, and sponsor of present poor-relief laws. This state-
ment is made in behalf of the 1,016 township trustees of Indiana who administer
poor relief and have jurisdiction over transients. No other group or board in
Indiana has administration power over relief matters. Lack of time prevents a
more thorough consideration of the subject to have a statement ready for the
meeting August 19.
Poor relief is handled in Indiana under the home-rule system whereby each
township is responsible for indigents from the time they are found therein whether
they have legal settlement or not. That must be remembered in any consideration
of migrants in Indiana. If indigents, they are entitled to food, shelter, and trans-
portation in the dii-ection of their settlement. Such relief is financed solely by
township taxes without State or other aid.
Lawn apijlicahlc. — The acts of 1935, page 432. revised prior relief laws all within
the one act, and the acts of 1937, page lOof), made changes insofar as investigators
were concerned. The acts of 1939, page 18s, changed former residence require-
ments from 1 to 3 years within the State and of which the old 1-year requirement
within a township to acquire settlement for relief purposes was retained. Another
law passed at the same session provided punishment for those who after lawfully
obtaining relief, acquired assets but fail to rc-port their change of status and con-
tinue to accept relief.
Our laws do not make it difficult for the individual to exercise his right to move
from place to place in his quest for a higher economic and social status, as stated
in one social work. Indiana laws are aimed at the chronic and shiftless who do
not believe in bettering their economic status by the sweat of their own brow but
who seek to better themselves at the expense of taxpayers of our townships.
Different groups have varied ideas about care of transients but township
trustees believe that in the past they have been coddled, that they had been edu-
cated to shift about at the expense of taxpayers, and past policies have not solved
the problem.
Migration analysed amd new settlement law sponsored. — Late in 1938, town-
ship trustees believed indigents were moving about to seek the best relief
obtainable. Figures were gathered and the trustees association then spon-
sored the relief settlement law which passed in 1939, requiring 3 years residence
within the State instead of 1. One year of that 3 must be within a township.
The same trend is noticeable in a number of other States. At that time, data
were gathered in 25 townships having the largest relief loads and 1,471 random
cases were analyzed. The results showed: The problem appeared to be more
chronic in industrial than in rural centers.
Those relief cases came from —
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
1071
Kentucky 230
Illinois
Tennessee-.
Ohio
Missouri
Alabama —
Mississippi-
Arkansas—
Georgia.
94
72
70
24
19
19
17
17
Texas 13
Europe (lived here over 5
years) 62
Scattered States 124
Lived in Indiana (all their
lives) 710
Total 1, 471
To see which cases would be affected by a change in the settlement require-
ments from 1 to 3 years, the 1,471 cases further analyzed showed :
Lived in Indiana
Less than 1 year 108
1 to 2 years- 125
li to 3 years 106
Total 349
This group was affected by the change from 1 to 3 years for settlement for
relief purposes.
3 to 4 years 58
Over 4 years 364
Lived in Indiana all of their lives 710
Cases 1,471
Another analysis was made to determine if the reliefers came from States
granted less relief than Indiana. Of the 1,471 counted, 699 came from other
States, 710 lived in Indiania, and 62 came from Europe:
Came from—
Cases
Percent
States with less relief than Indiana
States with more relief than Indiana
442
257
63
37
Total . .
699
100
Still another analysis was made of the 1,471 cases to determine if the families
came to Indiana to obtain relief, then acquire residence to obtain better welfare
grants than they could obtain at home :
337
30
26
317
Old-age assistance only
Old-age and deiiendent-child aid
Old-age and blind aid only
Came from States having the same types of welfare aid as Indiana although all of them did not
grant as much as Indiana. Some trustees believed that the migrants wanted supplemental
poor relief.
Strjinge to say, there was opposition to the 1939 law changing the settlement
requirement from 1 to 3 years by organized social workers but nevertheless
the bill passed.
Surrey on population trends in Minnesota. — The Minnesota Institute of Gov-
ernmental Research, St. Paul. Minn., published a survey showing that there
was a net movement from Minnesota into Indiana between 1930 and 1936 of
130,498 families. Indiana received more migrants from Minnesota than any other
of 7 States considered. The object of the survey was population trends in
Minnesota.
1072 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Vn accept able policies. — In a few States, certain policies have been adopted
relative to migrants w^hich are unacceptable to township trustees in Indiana.
A ruling in Michigan was typical of the belief that plans to remove indigents
to the place of their previous settlement must be conditioned on the following
factors :
"1. The move must be to the social and economic benefit of the client.
"2. It must be made with the permission of the officials of the place to which
he is to be returned.
"3. Plans for his care upon his arrival must be made."
As an illustration, when comparative grants for welfare and relief between
Kentucky (from which most of the Indiana cases come) and Indiana are
scrutizined. it can easily be seen that it would not be to the social and eco-
nomic benefit of the client to be returned, because there is no Federal program
for aid to dependent children or aid to the blind in Kentucky which there was
and is in Indiana ; relief is also si)asmodic in Kentucky while in Indiana it is
universal. Permission of Kentucky officials to return families is seldom granted
or letters answered because the officials there want those families benefit by
the better relief and welfare provided in Indiana. In addition, plans for the
care of the indigent upon his return to Kentucky would not be made. We are
not informed that always Kentucky follows the principles above described but
it demonstrates the tendency toward migrants among some States.
Township trustees in Indiana have always followed the policy of noninter-
ference with welfare matters. Oftentimes there is a conflict but leaders of
the trustees group have constantly urged that welfare grants he encouraged
even though additional poor relief is required at the expense of taxpayers. That
policy has meant that some families have taken advantage of our relief and
welfare system. The Federal requirement that States must not disqualify a
child who has resided in the State 1 year immediately before application for aid
to dependent children, or who was born in the State within the preceding year
if its mother lived within the State 1 year immediately prior to the child's
birth, has caused some friction with local relief authorities.
Some widows or mothers having children and who desire a grant for aid
to dependent children, will move into Indiana and gladly skimp along until
the 1 year's required residence has been established. She then obtains the
grant for her dependent children and forthwith demands poor relief for herself.
Under the Indiana relief laws she is subject to deportation to the place of her
prior settlement under the 3-year Indiana law, but her children cannot be
removed unless and until they demand supplemental aid. Such cases are annoy-
ing. Many trustees believe that some provision should be made by Federal
enactment permitting the deportation of the entire group. Several families from
Southern States were discovered who had explained the procedure to each other
and defied deportation through court proceedings so that they could stay until
they had acquired the 1 year's residence. In one case, a woman gave birth to
an illegitimate child here and when abovxt to be deported, married a man to
acquire his settlement. He admitted he could not support her and that there
would eventually be a divorce so that she could obtain aid to dependent
children.
In one Indiana township a justice of the peace court gave a deportation
judgment against a family from Kentucky but to date the order has not been
carried about because of threats made by the family and their friends.
Indianapolis conference on migration. — In 1939 Indianapolis was host to a
group which discussed migration. The Indianapolis News commented editorially
and said :
"The justice of Indiana's decision to require an indigent to live in the State
3 years before he can become eligible for relief was not questioned at the timie
the 1939 assembly stiffened the relief law. A recent statement that more migrants
had come into Indiana than into any other Middle Western State strengthened
the belief that this State's easier approach to relief benefits was resulting in
abuses that should be corrected.
"Welfare workers from 10 States, who met in Indianapolis last week, took the
general view that relief ought to be made easier. Some of them advocated aboh
ishing residence requirements and the meeting favored leaving to each State's
attorney general the decision as to when public aid should be granted or denied.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1()73
An agreement between Indiana and Ohio has been proposed, permitting a relief
client of either State to visit the other State for 9 months in each year without
losing such grants as have been made.
"Relief must be given unto those in dire need and nobodj' would permit a tran-
sient to go hungry or without shelter. However, there seems to be a growing
tendency on the part of professional workers to consider doles as a permanent
program and to make it easier to share in the mounting social-welfare costs.
Private agencies urge more attention to self-support possibilities. Public agen-
cies have become so accustomed to spending huge sums that they may forget the
plight of the taxpayers who provide the money."
Recent inquiry as to causes and: conditions. — On Augiist 1, an inquiry was sent
to 125 township trustees to obtain material for this paper. Each large county
was contacted, particularly where there was a known transient problem. Inquiry
was also made in smaller communities.
No effort was made to obtain data on migration of indigents within the State
but one trustee directed attention to 1939 figures for his township when our new
settlement law was enacted — 18.6 percent came from other Indiana townships,
0.064 percent came from other States .within 5 years.
The problem is appreciated by our trustees and generally they give care and
attention as each case deserves. One explained, "We never know if they are truly
indigent" or cheating. "Our problem is whether to give them aid such as gas,
food, and lodging, or detain them long enough to make an investigation."
All trustees did not answer our inquiry but a synopsis of their comment is
given, interpolated with remarks of the writer.
Where arc thet/ from? — One trustee said that 90 percent of his relief was to
families who come from Kentucky. * * * Another said that many were
lured into his community by posters placed in Kentucky. * * * Most of the
complaints were about families coming from Kentucky, then West Virginia. One
trustee said that many families come from Kentucky and are employed by the
W. P. A. before local indigents receive help. This encourages an influx of
reliefers, he said. * * * They come from the southern States, mostly." The
makers of this statement believe that, generally speaking, they come from those
States having less relief or welfare grants than Indiana, as indicated by our
count in 1939.
Kind and class of transients. — Practically all of the answers to the inquiry
characterized the transients as "shiftless" or wanderers, ne'er-do-wells, or the
like. Very few of them were regarded as being of the kind where aid would be
helpful in reestablishing them. They were said to be chronics just moving about.
As said, just a few were regarded as being in need of genuine help which would
do either the transient or taxpayers any good.
Here are some of the comments : •
Wandering type. Because we are on the national road, we get many who
are going east or west, although we are in a small town and one of the
State police lives near. He brings them in when they need medical or hospital
attention. "Tliey think the world owes them a living." * * * One of our
largest packing plants does advertise in our State papers for cheap labor and
encourages transients to compete with local labor for caring for tomato and beet
crops. They are from Kentucky, Tennessee, Michigan, and quite a number are
Mexicans. They have not been so numerous since the 3-year settlement law
was pas.sed. * * * One factory hires about half its men from Kentucky
and Tennessee. Some leave their families for a year, then the "welfare" keeps
them. * * * They are a slovenly class drawn here by seasonal industry
from Kentucky. * * * Fifty percent of the transients are chronic indigents
claiming to be fruit pickers and moving south to north into Michigan or
returning. * * * Our greatest problem is the importation of Mexican
sugar-beet laborers by a local sugar company. A large number are from
Texas of which 90 percent are aliens. About one-half stay. In recent years
a higher type has been employed because the beet company sends its doctor
from here down there to give them a physical examination. * * * Our
township is on a United States highway and they are bound for New York,
Chicago, Detroit, or some other large place where they "are sure they can
get work." The local Red Cross furnishes 5 gallons of gas and 1 quart of oil.
The Red Cross director says that only about 20 percent of them are worthy.
* * * "One out of 25 might rehabilitate themselves but generally if you
help them once they quit trying to help themselves."
1Q74 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
The importation of clieap labor to compete with local labor was one cause
assigned. Some factories advertised in otlier States or used other means to
attract labor altliongh many of the trustees asserted that their local factories
did not follow that practice but paid living wages. One trustee said that a
certain junior chamber of commerce in anotlier State paid for the care of a
family until they establislied tliemselves and acquired residence in his locality.
Singularly, none of the trustees reported tliat any of tlie migrants said they
were going where tliey actually had employment. They are the ones who
have been to some large city seeking worlv or now are headed for home.
But, "we do have a few transients from Ohio and Michigan who })ecome
stranded." * * * "Very few are the type who could rehabilitate themselves
in a community." * * * "Hunting work and vacation trips seem to be
their reasons for leaving home."
The writer observed not less than 1 month ago, in the clierry belt of
Michigan, the large number of migrants wlio were seeking employment. In-
quiry disclosed that many of them were attracted from other States by small
ads. Residents of the community affected resented tlie influx and many said
that there was enough local labor to care for the crop. After the season is
over, the residents say that the cherry ijickers are driven away by the police.
Until that is done, some of the women are fearful of stayiiig alone because
of the class and type of migrants attracted.
A northwestern Indiana trustee says that about 80 percent of its cases
are Negoes, principally from Tennessee, Arkansas, Mississippi, and Alabama.
"They are unskilled workers, farm hands, cotton pickers, sharecroppers, and
the like .seeking better living conditions but lack ambition and find direct
relief very attractive." The steel mills attract transients although they are
not encouraged by the mills. Newspapers carry stories of booms and rela-
tives in Gary write letters encouraging others to come there. * * * One
trustee complains that authorization is obtained in many relief cases to return
families to the place of their prior settlement when they are suddenly
given W. P. A. employment or are accepted by the welfare department, then
they will not return. The W. P. A. lays them off in a few months, then they
demand relief. That trustee said that the old Federal transient bureau en-
couraged the migration of families by its liberal policies.
In central Indiana, when the trustee took office, he iuunediately ceased his
sponsorship of the township transient bureau and s:iid that all single men
would be cared for at the county poor farm. V(>ry few of them accepted the
proposal and went elsewhere. The trustee believes that Federal or State care
of transients would concentrate transient relief in the larger localities and
increase instead of relieving the problem. It is his belief that the majority
of transients are people who are goi^ig from one transient center to another
and making no effort to rehabilitate themselves.
Sugyested solutions. — There was no uniform suggestion about what should be
done. Many insisted that it was a local responsibility while some said that the
Federal Government should handle the problem. Others objected to Federal
control over any of the relief. One insisted that if Indiana had a hitchhiker law
similar to that of Pennsylvania that it would sol\e at once inany of the cases.
Too much liberality with transients was alleged to be one cause. A uniform
relief law with compulsory methods of enforcing c<nnpliance was one suggestion.
Contrary to common belief, the writer of this statement believes that the tran-
sient in genuine need receives help and assistance. After a local woman was
nuirdered by a transient in a certain township, help to them through the police.
Salvation Army, and other agencies was stopped except in extreme cases. They
were overwhelmed with "customers" before but are Jiot now.
Wayne Township of Allen County gave statistics. Fingerprinting of transients
was regarded as having a wholesome effect. For July 1940 the figures showed :
Transients fingerprinted 433
Transients not previously arrested or printed 133
Transients previously arrested or printed and with criminal records 300
Percentage of transients in records 69.3
Percentage of transients without records 30. 7
White transients fingerprinted 371
Negro transients fingerprinted 62
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1075
According- to age groups, the largest numbers were aged 26. Their ages in
groups were in this order: 26, 20, 19, 22, 24, 27, 17. Very few were over 29.
Since January 1, 1940, the largest sum was spent in May for transients, then
April.
It might be that a universiil requirement to fingerprint transients wt)uld be
helpful. Since that township has changed from the former set-up, applications
for temporary care have been but two-thirds. Direct contact is made with the
Federal Bureau of Fingerprinting liy the townsliip. Only IH percent are regarded
a.s the better tyiie of citizen trying to improve themselves.
"A compulsory work relief law emliracing a variety of work is a good solution.
This is the method I use," said another. * * "Why should the people of
this State be slowly bled to death through relief taxes for unfortunates of
another State which clearly dctes not want to assume the ri'sponsibility of their
(»wn relief prol)lems." * * * "j believe that each locality can handle this
problem with less expense and more satisfaction than a Federal program, with
a set of iron-clad rules, administered by persons who owe no responsibility to the
conuinmity in which they are working."
ConvluxUm. — The Social Security Board is said to have stated that mobility
is creating serious risks of loss of rights which have accrued to persons eligible
for public as.sistance. unemployment insurance, and similar rights and recom-
mend interstate agreements also standardization of settlement laws pending a
more satisfactory solution.
We do not believe that either proposal woidd help.
Those who lose valuable rights by movin;;- about have no one to blame but them-
selves. Similar hazards in private employment present themselves to any person
.seeking a change of residence, whatever the motive may be.
A rolling stone gathers no moss, neither does a wanderer have universal opjyor-
tiinity for employment. If jobs are .scarce at home, they are ecpmlly scarce else-
where, or there would be no transient problem. If the migrant is a good workman
and out of employment and knows where he may obtain employment, he will not
be a public charge, neither will he be bothered. Tiiose situations automatically
adjust tliemselves without any burden on taxpayers.
The average transient has no trade and dislikes staying in one place any length
of time if it requires any effort to obtain sustenance. To relief authorities, he is
always "bound for home" or "going to a job" in order to get transportation some-
where, probably anywhere.
The public is growing more tax-conscio\is every year and di.slikes the chronic
relief getter who is a shiftless person and flits here and there.
Neither is it agreed that the problem is a Federal one. The experience of town-
ship trustees with transients when Federal funds were i)artially used for local
poor relief between 1933 and 1935 in Indiana, disclosed that most of them became
relief conscious and that they enjoyed themselves traveling mostly nowhere.
There are other indirect causes which affect migration of indigents, it seems.
Among them are an ill-considered policy in giving employment on W. P. A. Local
indigents are not favored over migrants, thus giving indirect encouragement to
migration. Trustees believe that W. P. A. employees should be taken from the
relief rolls. Migrants Haunt the ruling of the W. P. A. that relief laws do not apply
to their class, notwithstanding supreme court rulings in several States. Trustees
are now '^^•onsidering resolutions for their comiiuv convention demanding closer
conformance with local laws and preference for emplovment bv indigents on
W. P. A.
One clause in relief laws of some States causes considerable criticism. It pro-
vides that absence of 1 year causes loss of .settlement. Those States deny return
of their migrants yet insist that States not having the clause accept their own. It
is an ab.surd clause, and Indiana was driven to adopt it in retaliation, particularly
against California. Preferably, no person should lose his st'Itlemeiit until a new
one is gained, and in all events the period during whicli aid and assistance, includ-
ing W. P. A. employment is had, should be deductible.
If it is finally agreed that each State is responsible for its own indigents, then
there might be .some Federal legislation permitting deportation into other States
of those not having settlement and requiring acceptance of those cases, together
with penalties for violation. States which will not attempt to solve their relief
problems should be compelled to do so. It is doubtful if any one State can legally
deport an indigent and deliver him into anoth(>r State.
jQ^g INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Conflicts between welfare laws and local relief laws should be remedied.
Indiana should not be compelled to permit an indigent mother to stay here in
violation of our relief settlement laws while she is obtaining aid to dependent
children and at times asking supplemental aid for the children and aid for
herself from relief. The spirit and intent of our welfare laws is splendid and
above reproach, but taxpayers generally are becoming soured against them because
of abuses and exploitation, even though such instances are few. Now that the
novelty of our social-security laws has worn off, they are being judged by the few
abuses rather than the general good they do.
Indiana trustees will probably consider requiring all who do not have settle-
ment to be fingerprinted and that their records be checked.
Should the Federal Government assume responsibility of the indigent problem,
many changes should be made tightening its applicability rather than following
the old practice used several years ago. If either Federal or State Governments
assume the responsibility, such persons should not be permitted to acquire
settlement while receiving help.
The attraction of cheap seasonal labor to compete with local labor should be
discouraged.
To say that there is any lasting solution to the problem would be foolhardy.
The shiftless will always be with us. A near approach to the problem might be
found when each State cares for its own. The incentive to go elsewhere to obtain
relief would be removed. The problem is to a degree dangerous. As stated by a
writer in America :
"If we give the matter intelligent thought. I believe that we can find a solution
for the migrant question which will not, as the Germans say, pour out the baby
with the bath. A satisfactory economic solution will find a place in our Nation
for a small producer who stays at home. A suitable social and religious solution
will bring back the problem to the starting point of all these matters, which is
the individual's relation to his own home, family, and local community. This is a
middle-class solution, you will say. Precisely; the migrants will receive real
justice when the American middle class once knows its own mind."
Hoosier taxpayers are willing to take back their families who have gone else-
where and failed. They are willing to care for those who have lived here the
required 3 years. But they are not in favor of supporting paupers who come
here from other States and want to stay. If anything is spent on them, it is only
the minimum necessary to put them on their way in the direction of their proper
legal settlement. We have ample laws to provide for that ; and if it is denied,
recourse may be had by appeal where it will be ordered.
We are truly our brother's keeper, but not the keeper of those of distant kin,
especially those from other States. •
Township trustees are willing to help tho.se in actual need because of conditions
not under their control, but they do not agree with any proixtsal that a pauper
may come to their community and stay without any effort to help himself oi
without any semblance of opportunity for employment.
Please be assured that the Indiana Township Trustees Association welcomes
a feasible solution of the problem. The association stands ready and willing to
be of assistance in any way possible.
Leo X. Smith.
Chas. M. Dawson.
TESTIMONY OF CHAKLES B. MARSHALL— Resumed
Mr. Parsons. You may proceed with your statement, Mr. Marshall.
Mr. Marshall (reading) :
MAJOR PROBLEMS OF MIGRATION
The interstate movement of populations shifts from place to place
on the basis of real or believed opportunities for economic security.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1077
The cause of the migration may be an opportunity for employment,
better public medical-care facilities, or more adequate public assistance.
States which have adequate programs of assistance and which border
States in which there is no such program may find that persons are
tending to cross the borders taking up residence with the view of quali-
fying for such assistance.
" Communities, which, because of some development, import a consid-
erable number of persons in a boom industry, find that these persons
moving into the community create a problem when the boom is over or
tiiere is a change in the employment situation.
Tlieoretically, if opportunities for employment, economic security,
I)ublic assistance, and private charities were equal in all communities,
there would be relatively little interstate migration. Because of the
varying situations in diiferent States, each State has sought to pro-
tect itself from unwelcome influx by various devices. Border controls,
stringent legal settlement laws, discrimination against nonresidents as
to public relief, community resistance to nonnatives, and general com-
nnmity resistance to persons born elsewhere are some of the devices by
which control is attempted.
States have attempted to control interstate migration of dependents
by setting up reciprocal agreements and establishing legal settlement
laws. The powers in this field of various States vary so greatly that
little control is actually exercised.
The legal settlement laws for public relief vary from liberality to
extreme stringency. Some States do not have a direct-relief program ;
other States do not have an aid-to-dependent-children plan under the
Federal Social Security Act; some States rule a person loses legal
settlement as soon as he moves out of the community ; others permit 1
year's leave of absence ; and others permit a person to retain legal settle-
ment until he gains a new legal settlement elsewhere as far as public
relief is concerned.
Major problems may be listed as follows:
(1) The variation of legal settlement law^s.
(2) The lack of definite controls as to the deportation and impor-
tation of dependent persons.
(3) The variation in adequacy of relief and assistance programs as
])etween States and lack of certain necessary relief and assistance pro-
grams in some States which cause an influx of dependents into adjoin-
ing States.
(4) Importation of labor in boom times without a definite plan as to
a {)ermanent program of employment which wnll eliminate large groups
of dependents in times of economic stress.
SUGGESTED SOLUTIONS
Although I am not authorized to make any recommendations, some
of the solutions which may be proposed in this connection are as
follows :
(1) Development of a uniform legal settlement law which might be
urged upon all States.
]^Q78 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
(2) Settino- up the macliinery tor reciprocal aoTeements between
States as to importation and deportation of dependents and requirin<x
that such machinery be used by all units of oovernment.
(3) Developmenl of a uniform reciprocal-agreement act for enact-
ment by States in connection with importation and deportation of
dependents which will put both States upon the same basis as to legal
settlement and the transfer of dependents.
(4) Development of a Federal program for the care of nonresidents
Avhile they are establishing themselves in a new community so that they
may adjust tliemseh'es to economic security and not be fired back to the
jjlace in which there has been failure.
(5) Development of uniform legal settlement laws by a Federal
program of aid for nonresident dependents in which the standards
required of States for Federal grants will impel uiuform legislation.
These are long-range suggestions which probably cannot be realized
fully so long as there are State governments but the development of
which may eliminate some of the major difficulties now being experi-
enced.
Mr. Parsons. Do you have a question you would like to ask. Con-
gressman Curtis^
^, u()Ai;r.>'-Mi:M' cake of hojiei.kss
Mr. Curtis. Yes. With reference to the suggestions you have made,
as I understand it, you propose that the Federal Government should
assume the problem of assisting those i)eoi)le who are entirely home-
less, as far as all States are concerned '?
Mr. Marshaix. At least, assist in that program.
Mr. Curtis. You mean, by closely working together, by uniformity
in settlement laws and reciprocity in the return of families?
Mr. Marshall. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. Our difficulties in this country have gone on for long
enough so there are many, many people who do not belong any place,
from a legal standpoint.
Mr. Marshall. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. That is the area in which you feel the Federal Govern-
ment shoidd assume the greater burden?
Mr. Marshall. If there is opportunity for adjustment in the new
place to which the family has moved, the probabilities are it is better
for the country as a whole for some relationship to be worked out
whereby that family can adjust itself rather than to be obliged to
return to its place of settlement where there has been failure because
the family has had to ask for a medical order, or some very definite
relief.
UNIFORM SETTIJ':ili:NT I^WVS
In my opinion the settlement laws are going to get more and more
stringent than they are now, unless there is some impulse from the
Federal Government to bring about uniformity, and the opportunities
for assistance in all States as to all categories are going to have to be
equal, in order to eliminate the impulse to move from one place to a
place where a better adjustment can be made.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1079
Mr. Curtis. As a matter of fact, we have a situation now where the
States to protect tliemselves from nei<>lil)orin<>- States are compelled
to do some thin<^s that are not reall}' working toward the general good
of the country as a Avhole?
Mr. Marshall. That is correct. Take the situation as to Illinois
and Indiana : Both States have adopted the 3-year residence require-
ment for local settlement. Illinois did not provide, apparently, for
temporary relief of the nonresident person. Indiana, through the
^vork of the Trustees Association, permitted such relief to be written
into the law.
In my opinion, legal settlement must be divorced from temporary
aid or temporary relief. In other words, civilization or humanity
demands that the person who has come into the community hungry or
sick have some care for the time being, until he can be retiu-ned to the
place of legal settlement.
Mr. Curtis, Do you not think it is only fair to consider the fact
that States that are receiving a great many destitute people from any
given area, likewise over a period of years have received a great many
people from that same area with considerable funds and other talents
and possessions to make a contribution to the State to which they go?
jVlr. Marshall. That is right. The fact that a person moves from
one State to the other does not mean he is an economic liability for
the community. However, the greatest movement as to importation
and deportation is between States in which there has been some such
movement. For instance, out of 1,400 cases to which the Department
of Public Welfare in Indiana gave consent for retui-n of dependents,
582 of them were from the State of California.
Mr. Curtis. I noticed that in the table.
Mr. Marshall. Yes.
Mr. Curtis. I also noticed in your table that with respect to non-
residents of Indiana who were destitute and mental cases. California
leads the list.
Mr. Marshall. That is because they have been more active in re-
turning nonsettled persons, and probably because there has been a
greater movement of persons seeking economic security to that State
who have come back to Indiana. In 1920, the number of persons
living in other States born in Indiana exceeded the number of persons
born in other States and living in Indiana by approximately 280,000.
In 1930 the figure had gone down to 230,00(3, showing that the flow
is going back to Indiana instead of away from Indiana.
Mr. Curtis. If our chairman was here to protect his good State, I
would ask you if California had returned any millionaires that had
gone from Indiana to California; but since he is not here, I will not
ask you that question. That is all.
Mr. Parsons. Are there any other questions, gentlemen? [Xo re-
sponse,] Mr. Marshall, we appreciate your coming. We would like
to have you express to the Governor our thanks for submitting this
paper for the record. It is gratifying to know that he took enough
time and interest in this investigation to send down what I think is
a very valuable report upon the situation in Indiana.
200:{70 — 40— pt. 3 18
j^QgQ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. Marshall. I will be very happy to. I look forward with great
interest to the report of the committee.
Mr. Parsons. We will try to see that you get a copy out m the
capital of Indiana when it is published.
Mr. Marshall. Thank you.
(Whereupon, Mr. Charles B. Marshall was excused.)
STATEMENT OF CATHEEINE ODGERS
Mr. Parsons. The next witness will be Mrs. Odgers.
Give your name and address to the reporter and speak loudly so we
can hear you.
Mrs. Odgers. Catherine Odgers, 1230 West Adams.
Mr. Parsons. Chicago, 111.?
Mr. Parsons. Congressman Sparkman will interrogate you.
Mr. Sparkman. Mrs. Odgers, where were you born ?
Mrs. Odgers. Colorado.
Mr. Sparkman. Do you mind telling us when ?
Mrs. Odgers. In 1905.
Mr. Sparkman. 1905?
Mrs. Odgers. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. That makes you 35 now ?
Mrs. Odgers. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Are you married?
Mrs. Odgers. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. How long did you live in Colorado ?
Mrs. Odgers. Until I was about two and a half.
Mr. Sparkman. Then wdiere did you go ?
Mrs. Odgers. Arizona.
Mr. Sparkman. How long did you live in Arizona ?
Mrs. Odgers. About 27 years, off and on.
Mr. Sparkman. What was your father's occupation ?
Mrs. Odgers. He was a boiler inspector.
Mr. Sparkman. AVhat about your husband?
Mrs. Odgers. He is a diamond driller.
Mr. Sparkman. A diamond driller?
Mrs. Odgers. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. When you were married, did you contnnie to live
in Arizona ?
Mrs. Odgers. Just for a short while.
Mr. Sparkman. Where did you and your husband live after you
were married?
Mrs. Odgers. We went to California. We were there a short while.
Then w^e went to Oregon, Washington, and Idaho, about 6 months.
We were in all of those places, and then we went back to Arizona
for a while.
Mr. Sparkman. You were going to different places where he could
find work?
Mrs. Odgers. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. He is in Chicago here with you now?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1081
Mi-s. Odgers. Yes. We arrived Sunday night.
Mr. Sparkman. Wliere did he last work?
Mrs. Odgers. Down in the Canal Zone.
Mr. Sparkman. The Panama Canal Zone?
Mrs. Odgers. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Do you liaA'e any children?
Mrs. Odgers. Three.
Mr. Sparkman. What are their ages?
Mrs. Odgers. Ten, 8, and 3.
Mr. Sparkman. Had you been previously married?
Mrs. Odgers. I had been previously married, yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Are all of these children by your present husband ?
Mrs. Odgers. Just the last one is by this husband.
Mr. Sparkman. Your husband has had to go wherever work op-
portunities presented themselves ?
Mrs. Odgers. Yes. It is usually on big construction jobs.
Mr. Sparkman. How long did he work in the Canal Zone?
Mrs. Odgers. He was down there a little over a year.
Mr. Sparkman. How did he happen to lose out down there ?
Mrs. Odgers. Well, he could not get along with his immediate su-
perior, so it was a toss-up whether he should resign or be discharged.
He took the lesser of the evils and resigned.
Mr. Sparkman. Was he working on a Government job?
Mrs. Odgers Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. I mean, was he employed by the Government?
Mrs. Odgers. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Not by a contractor?
Mrs. Odgers. No ; by the Government.
Mr. Sparkman. He was on what end of the Canal ?
Mrs. Odgers. The Pacific.
Mr. Sparkman. Could he have switched to the other end?
Mrs. Odgers. No. There was no work on the other side.
Mr. Sparkman. Was lie AAorking there in connection with this new
set of locks ?
Mrs. Odgers. Yes. and the work had already been done on the At-
lantic side.
Mr. Sparkman. You mean, the kind of work he does?
Mrs. Odgers. That is right.
Mr. Sparkman. Now, he is a diamond-drill operator?
Mrs. Odgers. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. That is, drilling in rock for blasting purposes and
such as that?
Mrs. Odcers. No. Taking up samples of the rock.
Mr. Sparkman. Core drilling and such as that ?
Mr. Odgers. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. His is more preliminary work, test work: is that
it?
Mrs. Odgers. Yes.
iQQO INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr Sparkman. Did you go to the Canal Zone with him ^
Mrs. Odgees. I went "to the Canal Zone with hmi. I was down
there 9 months. . , ., xi >
Mr. Sparkman. Where did you live while you were tliere^
Mrs. Odgers. Ancon. . .
Mr. Sparkman. That is an American city m the C anal Zone, right
outside of Panama City? .1 ^i a 4^ ^^
Mrs. Odgers. It is right out of Panama, on the other side ot the
street. ,. i i i j.
Mr. Sparkman. When his work ran out, of course, lie had to move
out?
Mrs. Odgers. We had to get out ot the Zone.
Mr. Sparkman. You had to get out of the Zone because ot the
regulations ?
Mrs. Odgers. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Then you came back to ^ew York^
Mrs. Odgers. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. How did you come back?
Mrs. Odgers. On a boat run by the Panama Railroad.
Mr. Sparkman. Had you saved up any funds?
Mrs. Odgers. Pardon me ?
Mr. Sparkman. Had you saved up any money ?
Mrs. Odgers. No. What I came up on was his vacation mouey
that he had coming to him.
Mr. Sparkman. Leave money he could take when he severed hi^
connections ?
Mrs. Odgers. Yes. 1 i xt a.- 1 >
Mr. Sparkman. What did you do when you reached JSew lork^
Mrs. Odgers. We came on through here to Chicago. When I saw
I wouldn't have enough money to take me on to Arizona, I sent
wires to mv brother and my farmer husband. I thought he inight
})e able to help get the children back west. I have not heard from
him since. Mv brother could not help. , , i .
Mr. Sparkman. You have not heard from your former husband?
Mrs. Odgers. No; and my brother could not help.
]Mr. Sparkman. Does he'support the children?
]\Irs. Odgers. Not any.
Mr. Sparkman. Not to any extent whatsoever?
Mrs. Odgers. No.
Mr. Sparkman. Does he have steady employment (
Mrs. Odgers. No. In fact, I have only seen him once since I liave
been remarried.
Mr Sparkman. Did you hear from your brother^
Mrs. Odgers. I had 'a letter from them. They could not help
me. They are having troubles of their own.
Mr. Sparkman. So this was as far as you were able to go^
Mi-s. Odgers. This was as far as I have gotten.
Mr. Sparkman. Are you receiving any aid?
Mrs. Odgers. No. We are staying down at the Salvation Army
AVomeivs Lodge. . • , 1 • q
Mr. Sparkman. The Salvation Army then is helping you ^
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1()83
Mrs. Odgers. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Your husband lias just come in, in the last
iiv or
Mrs.
Odgers. He is in the hospital.
Mr. Sparkman. He is in the hospital?
Mrs. Odgers. Yes. He has a bad case of influenza. Through this
Travelers Aid. he wrote to Washington to see if he could get the
retirement fund. When he gets that, we are planning to leave.
Mr. Sparkmax. That is, for the work he did ?
Mrs. Odgers. Yes.
Mr. Sparkmax. Had he ever done any Government work prior to
that time!'
Mrs. Odgers. Yes. He worked down in Panama before that, 10
or 11 years ago. He worked at Boulder Dam.
Mr. Sparkman. Has he tried to obtain employment with the
various construction and engineering firms of this country?
Mrs. Od<;ers. Yes. He went ^yesterday to one of the diamond drill-
ing companies. They had moved their offices to Michigan City. He
was supposed to see their salesman today. He said he would, as
soon as he felt better. He said he would go and see him.
Mr. Sparkman. Mrs. Odgers, has his woi'k been fairly steady ?
Mrs. Odgers. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman^. Since you have been married to him?
Mrs. Odgers, Yes. It hasn't been so long between jobs. There is
lots of it going on.
Mr. Sparkman. You are certainly optimistic, I hope, as to future
emploj'ment ?
Mrs. Odgers. We have always gotten it before.
Mr. Sparkman. You have never had any public relief?
Mrs. Odgers. No.
Mr. Spark:man. This is the first time, I presume, that you have
had to receive help of any kind ?
Mrs. Odgers. Yes.
Mr. Sparkmax'. From any agency ?
Mrs. Odgers. Yes.
Mr. Sparkmax'. Are your children in school ? Do they go to
school ?
Mrs. Odgers. The two oldest ones go to school.
Mr. Sparkman. The youngest one is not old enough yet?
Mrs. Odgers. No.
Mr. Sparkmax. Did they attend school in the Canal Zone?
Mrs. Odgers. Yes; a full term down there.
Mr. SpARK^rAX. Wlierever you are, when school opens this fall,
you plan to put them in school?
Mrs. Odgers. So far in their schooling we have usually managed it.
We usually have managed so as to be able to stay in one place long
enough for them to have a whole term of school. There has only
been one time when they had to g:o to two schools during a year.
Mr. Sparkman. That is all I have.
Mr. Parsons. Are there any other questions?
2084 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. OsMERS. I have a question.
Mr. Parsons. Con<?ressman Osmers.
Mr. Osmers. What income did your husband make when he was
working for the Canal Zone?
Mrs. Odgers. What income?
Mr. Osmers. Yes.
Mrs. Odgers. He started at $235 and was raised up to $'250.
Mr. Osmers. Did that inchide any housing?
Mrs. Odgers. No; that is taken out. All of your living expenses
are taken out.
Mr. Osmers. They are taken out of the $250 ?
Mrs. Odgers. Yes; by the time you get it, there is not much left.
Mr. Osmers. That is all.
Mr. P^VRSONS. Tha-nk you very much, Mrs. Odgers.
(AYliereupon, Mrs. Catherine Odgers was excused.)
TESTIMONY OF HOWAED DAVID GOULD, DIRECTOR OF INDUSTRIAL
RELATIONS AND RESEARCH, CHICAGO URBAN LEAGUE; AND
FRAYSER T. LANE, DIRECTOR OF THE SOCIAL AND CIVIC DEPART-
MENT FOR THE CHICAGO URBAN LEAGUE, CHICAGO, ILL.
Mr. Parsons. The next witnesses are Mr. Lane and Mr, Gould.
Gentlemen, will you please give your names, addresses, and posi-
tions to the reporter.
Mr. Gould. My name is Howard David Gould, director of in-
dustrial relations and research. Chicago Urban League.
Mr. Lane. My name is Frayser T. Lane, director of the social and
civic department for the Chicago L^rban League. 3032 South Wabash
Avenue here in Chicago.
Mr. Parsons. Congressman Curtis will interrogate you, gentle-
men.
Mr. Osmers. We were very hopeful of having Dr. Cayton here
tocla}^ to enlarge upon his statement which has been filed with the
committee on the subject of Negro migration: Its problems and
control. Would you please state for the record the reason why it
is impossible for him to be here ?
Mr. Gould. I understand that Dr. Cayton's father is dying in
Seattle, Wash.
(Statement by Dr. Horace R. Cayton was introduced, as follows:)
Statement by Horace R. Caytox
I
At the outset the question might be posited, "Why does a population group mi-
grate?" A common-sense answer to this question is that people move from
places where they have fared badly to places where they will, or think they will,
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1085
fare better. People hope to gain by migrating, social improvement, economic ad-
vantage, religious freedom, or access to cultural resources. America has expe-
rienced much internal migration. There was the original migration which settled
the West. Later there was the great rise of the cities which caused a di.'^tinct shift
in the Nation's status from a predominantly rural to an urban ix^ople, a develop-
ment so swift as to be without precedent in the history of the world. These move-
ments of people have already been described by Professor Wirth. I simply wish to
point out at this time that migration of Negroes is just one aspect of population
movements in the United States arising from the harnessing of steam, electricity,
and the internal-combustion engine which has made possible the settlement of the
country and the development of great cities.
Fundamentally the migration of Negroes is similar to other population move-
ments in the United States. One important difference, however, can be pointed
out. Negro migration has been more extensively directed to the large cities and
especiallj' to the cities of the North ; and, with the exception of the stream of
people to California, the migration of Negroes has not followed the westerly
trend which is evident in the general population. It should be kept in mind that
the study of the mtivement among Negroes is just the observation of one segment
of the general population which is being influenced by the social and economic
forces which have been in flux since the beginning of the century. No migration
of Negroes has been more conspicuous, easier to follow, to study, and become
alarmed about, because they are easily recognized and because of the difficulties
which are often involved in their adjustment in cities.
In order to comment intelligently on the interstate migration of Negroes (who
might be destitute citizens), one must examine the question in the context of the
entire history of Negro migration as well as the more general population shifts.
The simple explanation of the present migration of Negroes in terms of coming
North to get on the W. P. A. ignores the forces which were set in motion during
the mass migration and imputes to the illiterate Negro sharecropper of the "deep
South" knowledge of the involved laws of settlement and the labyrinth of State
and municipal regulation surrounding the relief legislators which it would be
impossible for him to have. In the following pages I will comment briefly upon
the history of Negro migration up to the present time and some of the reasons
for that movement.
HISTORY OF NEGRO JIIGRATION
By tracing the center of Negro population through the various census enumera-
tions one can gain a vivid picture of the migrations of that segment of the popula-
tion. In 1790 the center of the Negro population of the United States was located
near the southern boundary of the State of Virginia. Ninety years later it had
moved southward and was in the northwestern corner of the State of Georgia.
Thus it had traveled 163.1 miles farther south and 413..5 miles farther west and
the total distance it had covered in a direct line was 445 miles, representing an
average advance of 50 miles per decade. This followed the movement of the
general population in the Southern States. The rate of advance of the Negro
population center was slowing down toward the close of the century, however,
but was still southward. By 18'JO it had gone 20 miles farther in that direction,
in 1900 nearly 10 miles, in 1910. 6 miles, and w^as then located in northeastern
Alabama. The direction of its movement was reversed in 1920 and it moved not
westward but eastward, not southward but northward, in fact, 94 miles farther
east and 19.4 miles farther north to the northwestern corner of Georgia. The
population center for 1930 is not available but it is safe to assume that it con-
tinued to move in a northeastern direction and was probably located in the south-
eastern section of Tennessee. Future movement of this center will probably con-
tinue in this direction.
There always has been some migration of Negroes into the Northern States.
In the early 1800's there was a small but steady flow of Negro freedmen and
slaves through the "underground railroad." This movement was somewhat
checked by the race riots which followed the competition of these migrants
with northern white workers, for serious difficulties, in which numbers of
Negroes were maltreated and murdered, occurred in such localities as Phila-
delphia, Pittsburgh, and New York. In spite of this, however, numbers of
Negroes continued to move to these northern centers.
1086
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
After the Civil War tliere were two divorffing currents of Negro migratiOD :
One was northward from the more northern of the Southern States— Mary Umd,
Virgina, Kentucky, Tennessee, and North Carolina; and the other was south-
ward and westward on the part of Negroes in the lower Atlantic ^md Gulf
Stclt6S
"The northward migration from Virginia after the war was notably large,
and was a direct reversal of the current of migration that prevailed under the
regime of slavery, when Negroes were being taken south in large numbers.
Set free, the "Virginia Negro turned toward the North and has been facing in
that direction ever since. This northward current of migration led mostly to
the States of Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and New York. The number of Negro
natives of Virginia living in these States when the war closed must have been
less than 10,000, for it was only 1.S.050 in 1870. But after the war it increased
rapidly, as shown by each successive census, and in 1920 was 11.5,104. The
southward migration" practically ceased, as is shown by the fact that the number
of Virginia Negroes living in the States of Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi,
Louisiana, and Texas decreased from 107,934 in 1870 to 10,844 in 1920. Thus
the Virginia-born Negro in the Cotton States of the South lias almost disap-
peared, although no doubt his descendants there are numerous." ^
Negroes in the "deep south" at that time did not migrate to the North in
large numbers; they lacked the knowledge, means, and initiative to embark
on such a journey. ' Therefore, the drift of the Negro population followed the
development of cotton cultivation and continued toward the southwest in the
same direction as the earlier compulsory migration under slavery.
An exception to this general trend of the Negro population was a movement
of people which originated in Tennessee and Kentucky in 1876 and spread
to the "deep south" around 1879. A series of migrations letl by Pap Singleton,
an energetic Negro leader at that time, was responsible for between five and
ten thousand Negroes moving to Kansas. It was Pap Singleton's boast that
he had organized 90,000 blacks for migration though the actual numbers might
not have exceeded 10,000. The majority of these migrants settled in the rural
sections of Kansas though later many drifted into the cities. This incidenbally
was perhaps the only instance where Negro migrants from the South settled m
rural northern areas" in any numbers. This movement was more important than
the number of persons involved would indicate for it set a pattern and gave
many Negro families a foothold and relatives in the North.
Tliere was also during this period a small but highly important stream of
educated Negro mulattoes from all sections of the South who migrated to the
North with the enforcement of the Black Codes. Many of them had been en-
gaged in politics and a large proportion of them had gone south for the first
time to engage in the work of reconstruction. With the Negro definitely barred
from political participation they returned, accompanied by a number of south-
ern mulattoes, to the North where even a menial position allowed them to live
more in accordance with their notion of themselves.
*******
There were in the North in 1860. 340.000 Negroes who constituted 7.7 percent
of the total Negro population of the country. With the migrations from the
border States and that of the educated mulattoes, as well as such movements
as those from the lower South led by Singleton, this number increased in 1870
to 452,000. in 1880 to 615,000. in 1890 to 701,000, and in 1900 to 880,000. During
these four decades the percentage of Negroes in the North had increased from
7.7 percent of the total Negro population in 1800 to 9.3 in 1870 and then remained
practically constant until 1900, when it reached 10 percent. In 1910, 45 yeai-s
after the emancipation, when, theoretically at least, the masses of Negroes were
at liberty to move, 89 percent of the Negro population of the country (nearly
9,000,000 persons) were to be found in the South. From 1860 to 1910 the per-
centage of Negroes in the South had decreased only 3.2 percent (i. e., from 92.2
percent to 89 percent). Between 1900 and 1910 only about 150,000 colored
persons migrated North, bringing the total black population in that section to
a million persons, or 10.5 percent of the colored population.
1 Hill, Joseph A., U. S. Monthly Labor Review, March 1924. Bureau of Labor Statistics.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
1087
The great waves of Negro migration to the Northern States occurred between
1916 and 1919, and between 1021 and 1924. In the former period the net increase
of sonthern-born Negroes to tlie North was about 321,890. which represented an
increase of about 45 percent to the Negro population of the North. Between
1920 and 1930 the number of migrants to the North was almost a million, and
represented an increase of 63 percent to the northern Negro population. From
1910 to 1920 the percentage of Negroes living in the South deci-eased from 89 to
85.2 percent, while the Negroes living in the North increased from 10.5 to^ 14
percent. In the next decade the pei'centage of Negroes living in the South
decreased to 78.7 percent, making a total loss of 10.3 percent for the 20-yeRr
period. The percentage of Negroes in tlie North increased to 20 percent of the
total Negro population, which constituted an increase of nearly 10 percent
for the two decades.
These migrants, in contrast to the early movements following the emancipa-
tion, originated from the "deep South." The earlier northward migration was,
as already noted, mostly from the northern tier of the Southern States. Even
as recently as 1910, 48 percent, or nearly one-half, of the southern-born
Negroes living in the North came from two States — Virginia and Kentucky.
The migration between 1910 and 1920 reduced the proportion from these two
States to 31.(3 percent. On the other hand, the proportion of Negroes in the
North coming from the States farther south — from what may be termed the
Cotton Belt States — increased from 18.2 percent of the total number of southern-
born Negroes living in the North in 1910 to 40.5 percent in 1920. The absolute
figure shows an increase from 75,000 in 1910, to 298,000 in 1920, so that there
were nearly four times as many persons in 1920 as there were in 1910. By 1930
the movement had reached even the most remote rural sections of the "deep
South" and the percentage of southern-born Negroes in the North from these
States continued to increase.
Migration in this country is a phenomenon intimately associated with urbanism
in that cities acquire their population through the migration of the rural popu-
lation. The movement of Negroes to the cities of both the South and North is
a reflection of the trend toward urbanism which has characterized our national
life during the past century. Thought of as living a quiet, rural existence on
far-off plantations in the "deep South," the Negro population has suddenly been
discovered to have formed significant proportions of northern, eastern, and
southern cities.
As early as the 1880's Negro farm hands had begun to drift to the cities of the
South, forsaking farm labor for work in mines, lumber camps, and sawmills.
Beginning with 1900 the movement to these small towns and cities increased
perceptibly and included not only farm laborers but also tenants and some owners.
In 1890, 84.7 percent of the Negro population of the South w-as rural.
This percentage decreased steadily to 82.S percent in 1900 ; 78.8 percent in 1910 ;
74.6 percent in 1920 ; 65.9 percent in 1930. Since 1900 over a million rural Negroes
have migrated to southern cities.
Although still predominantly rural, the Negro population is increasing in
urban population at a greater rate than the white population. Between 1910
and 1920 the Negro rate of increase in urban population was 32.6, compared w'ith
28.5 for whites ; and during the decade from 1920 to 1930, the percentage of
increase for Negroes was 45.9, while that of the whites was 24.1. The growth
in urban Negro population is apparent in the following table:
Percentage of Negroes, urban and rural, 1890-1930
Year
Percentage
urban
Percentage
rural
1890
19. t
22.7
27.4
34.0
43.7
80 6
liion
77 3
1910
7'' 6
1920. _..
66
1930
56, 3
-j^Qgg INTERSTATE MIGRATION
The proportion of the Negro population which was urban increased from 19.4
percent in 1880 to 43.7 percent in 1930 in the country as a whole. The urbaniza-
tion of the Negro population was differentiated by regions, however. In 1930 only
31.7 percent of the Negroes in the South were urban, but in the North 88.3 percent
of the Negroes lived in cities, and in the Western Slates 82.3 percent. In the
North and the West larger proportions of Negroes than native whites were urban,
for only 68.4 percent of the native whites were urban in the North and 58.5 percent
in the West. . . , ^ ..v, 4.
The migrations to the North were almost wholly to the cities and, further, to a
relatively few large industrial centers. „ , ^, . nv,-, i 1
"In the North there were 25 such Negro cities— New York, Chicago, Philadel-
phia Detroit, St. Louis, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Newark,
Kan.sas City (Mo.) , Columbus, Boston, Kansas City (Kans.), Gary, Dayton, Atlantic
City, Youngstown, Buffalo, Toledo, Jersey City. East St. Louis. Camden, Omaha,
A^ljron— arranged in order of size of Negro population of nearly 7,000,000 to East
St Louis 111., with its 1.500 Negroes in less than 75,000 total population. In these
25 centers there are found 1,513,384 Negroes, or 72 percent of all the urban Negroes
in the North and 03.9 percent of the total Negro population." -
The Negro population of the North is overwhelmingly centered in New lork,
Chicago, Philadelphia, and Detroit, which contained over 33 percent of the total
North Negro population in 1930.
In 193U of the 43.7 percent of the Negro population in urban communities 8
percent were in cities of l,0il0,000 or more, 20.2 were in cities 100,000 or oyer.
The remainder of the urban Negro population was distributed among the various
rity size groups in the following manner : Cities 25,000 to 100,000, 8.1 ; those 10,000
to 25,000, 5.3: those 2,500 to 10,000, 6.1. Further, it is the larger cities which
vhow an increasing rate of growth for cities over a million, and cities 2;>0,000 to
7:00,000 doubled their Negro population during the past decade (1920-30) with the
lities of the smaller size group increasing at a slower rate.
A further comment on the high degree of urbanization of the Negro can be
made in connection with the new classification of the census of rural farm and
nonfarm. Although 56.3 percent of the total Negro population was in 1930 classi-
fied as rural, 17 percent of the Negroes of the country were listed as rural non-
farm This classificatioii included many persons living in the metropolitan areas
i)f large cities and would include a number of Negroes living in or near suburban
pnd satellite cities either as servants in the former case or as industrial workers
In the latter case. In both instances these persons would be, to all intents and
t)urposes, more urban than rural in their relation to the economic structure, their
nutlook and way of life.
II
NEBBO MIGRATION AND SETTLEMEnMT IN INDUSTRIAL URBAN CENTEES
Alueh of the migration from the South in the period we have been discussing
was directed toward the West North Central States (Ohio, Indiana. Illinois, Michi-
gan, and Wisconsin). The Negro population of that area increased from approxi-
mately 250 000 persons in 190O to over a million in 1930. In 1900 only 1 State,
Ohio had a Negro population of lOO.OOO, while in 1930 each State in the division
with'the exception of Wisconsin, had over 100.000, and both Ohio and Illinois had
over 300,000. IMost of these migrants, as in other parts of the country, migrated
to the large cities of this area. Chicago's Negro population increased 113.7 per-
cent during the decade 1920 to 1930; Detroit's, 194 percent; Cleveland's, 108.7
percent- and Cincinnati's, 59 percent. The migration to and the settlement in
large cities of this district did not vary from the pattern which has already been
described for the country as a whole.
Chicago I believe, presents an excellent area for the study of Negro migration
and settlement in a large industrial urban center. In the first place, Chicago has
the largest single Negro population in the world. Only Greater New York, which
is composed of five counties, has a larger Negro population, and Manhattan Island
alone has fewer Negroes than Chicago— having 224,670 to (Chicago's 233,903.
(Greater New York has a total Negro population of 327,706.) In the second place,
the Chicago metropolitan region has a number of divertant types of Negro settle-
s Ross, Urbanization and the Negro, p. 123.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1089
iiieuts, varying from the highly urban slum district of the Wost Side to the rural
small-town settlement of Robbins, III., located only 25 miles from the heart ot the
city. Within this region the tendency of the migrant Negro population to settle
in the most urban areas is evident. Of the total Negro population of that area
(15 counties of the States of Illinois, Michigan, and Wisconsin) 97 percent are in
places over 10.000; 1.1 percent in places 2,500 to 10.000; 0.4 percent in places
2,500 ; 1.8 percent in rural nonfarm areas ; and 0.1 percent on rural farms. Thus
of the total 281,514 Negro population in the area, 273,170 are to be found in cities
10,000 and over, leaving only 9.544 in all other city size groups and in rural areas.
This distribution varies greatly from that of the total population of the region
which is much less highly urbanized. Only 87 percent of the total population was
found in places 10,000 and over in 1930 (as compared to 97 percent of the Negroes),
and 3 percent were on rural farms (as compared to 0.1 percent of the Negroes).
Negroes have been residents of Chicago since its founding and, as a matter of
fact, the first settler in Chicago was Jean Baptiste Point Du Sable, a San Do-
mingan Negro. It was not. however, until the turn of the century that the Negro
population became a significant factor in the population composition of the city.
There were only 323 colored persons in Chicago in 1850 ; in 1860 there were 950 ;
in 1870, 3,696 ; in 1880, 6,480 ; in 1890, 14,270 ; in 1900, 3,150 ; and as late as 1910
only 44,103. Between 1910 and 1930 the Negro population of the city increased
by 203,753 persons— 84,459 between 1910 and 1920, and 109,594 between 1920 and
1930. This represented an increase in the Negro population of Chicago of 148.2
percent in the decade between 1910 and 1920, and 113.7 percent between 1920
and 1930. During this 20-year period the Negro became an increasingly im-
portant factor in the racial composition of the city. In 1900 Negroes constituted
1.8 percent of the population of the city. Their percentage increased to 2 per-
cent in 1910, to 3 percent in 1915, to 4.1 percent in 1920, to 5 percent in 1923,
to 6 percent in 1925, and to approximately 7 percent in 1930. Thus since 1903
the Negro population has grown at a faster rate than the total population of
the city. From 1910 to 1930 the increase was at an increasing rate.
The 1934 census of Chicago indicated that the Negro population had increased
4.000 between 1930 and 1934. There has been no census taken since that date
and no reliable figures or estimates are available. A number of persons and
organizations, however, have made guesses as to the probable increase. Among
them Mr. Lawrence Oxley, of the United States Employment Service, and Mr.
Howard Gould, of the Chicago Urban League, estimated that there had been
an increase in Negro population of approximately l.fXiO per month. If this esti-
mate were true, the increase would amount to 60,000 for the period 1934 to 1940,
making a total of approximately 294,000! as of March 1940. A number of news-
papers, civic organizations, and real-estate associations have estimated the pres-
ent Negro population to be 300,000. The writer is of the opinion that these fig-
ures are much too high, but is not willing, with the evidence at hand, to venture
a guess as to the probable number. The reason that the possible increase in
Negro population has received the attention which it has is because a number
of persons throughout the city feel that Negro migrants from the South become
public charges.
It should also be noted at this point that any increase in the Negro population
will come as a result of migration. In Chicago, Negroes have the highest birth
rate of any group, but the death rate is twice as high as that of the native whites
and almost twice as high as that of the foreign-born whites. The infant mortality
rate shows an even more startling difference. Thus, although the rate of natural
increase for the foreign-born white was 10.4 and the native white 7.6, the Negro
was increasing at a decreasing rate — that is, negative 2.9 percent.
Ill
TENDENCIES OF NEGRO MIGRATION SINCE 1900
It has been stated before that any insight to the present migration of Negroes
must be attained through a study of the history of the migratory movement
which has characterized colored persons since the turn of the century. The
most striking feature of northward migration during the post-war period was
its individualism. The motives prompting thousands of Negroes were not always
1090 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
the same, even in the case of close neighbors. In general, one can say that there
was both a "pull" and a "push,'" each of which embodied a configuration of fac-
tors. The economic "pull" of the North was the high wages and better iwsitions
created by the need for a new supply of industrial labor caused by restrictions
Imposed, first, by war, and then by the quota laws on European immigration.
This, added to the acceleration of industry to meet the wartime needs made the
Negro an important factor in the laljor "pool" of northern industry. Negro la-
borers were solicited throughout the South by agents for such industries as steel
and meat packing, and often they and their families were given free transporta-
tion to the North. In some instances the entire conuuunity, including the teacher,
preacher, and merchant, came together. Labor was at a premium and the Negro
was the only group to fulfill that need. In a very real sense Negroes contrib-
uted greatly to the winning of the first AVorld War by the contributions they
made in keeping industry abreast with the wartime needs.
The "push" which made Negroes willing and even anxious to move northward
came from the unfavorable conditions urider which they were forced to live in
the South. The boll weevil had endangered the whole cotton culture and the
economic deprivation made Negroes more aware of the disparity between the
high w^ages, superior social and educational institutions, and civil rights which
might be enjoyed in the North, and the Jim Crow laws, poor schools, peonage, and
lynchings from which they suffered in the South. In addition. Negroes too were
affected by "the lure of the city" which was part of the general process of urban-
ization and infiuenced all classes of people.
Once this migration got under way its character changed and for a period it
became a great mass movement. Under its imi)etus people who otherwise would
have been content to have been in the South joined in. With the post-war de-
pression in the middle twenties the northward movement slackened, and what
had been a steady stream of migrants dwindled to a trickle of persons shuttling
northward and southward in response to individual family and personal motives.
More recently it has been alleged that a stream of migrants has been set in
motion by the superior wages and allotments which are enjoyed by Negroes in
the North from relief agencies. It is difficult to prove or refute such arguments.
Indeed an increase of Negroes registered with social agencies or employed by the
W.P.A. does not establish the fact that new migrants are coming. It is just as
logical to assume that an increasing of the numbei' of Negroes (who live much
closer to the poverty line) have l)een unable to maintain themselves any longer
in private Industry.
The income level of the Negro population in Chicago is surprisingly low. A
study by the United States Department of Labor in l!»o6 demonstrated that 47.7
percent of the Negro families in the city had an income which was less than
$1,000 as compared with 16.8 percent of the white families, and again. 61.5 percent
of the white families received $2,000 or less as compared with 1)0.2 percent of
the Negro families. That a disproportionate number of Negroes are found on
relief rolls is not then a surprising fact and simply reflects their inferior, subor-
dinate, and insecure status in the economic structure of the city.
Much has been made over the fact that Negroes constitute 7 percent of the
total population but contribute 40 percent of the relief population. When it is
taken into consideration that during the depression the Negro was first to be
aft'ected and has not as yet recovered his former position, this figure is understand-
able. In the first place, Negroes were relatively new in industry and thus had
little seniority. Many Negroes, in fact most, were employed in industries which
were not protected by unions. This lack of seniority and protection fi'om unions
added to the fact that Negroes are concentrated in the lower income brackets of
the industrial hierarchy, made them the first and the most permanent sufferers
from the depression. Likewise, it should be noted that it has been the observa-
tion of most of the employment service employees with whom I have talked that
Negroes are being taken back into industry much less rapidly than are white
workers. The result is that when the effects of the recovery are felt by other
employees, Negroes are continuing to be unemployed, and their percentage or even
their actual number on the relief and W.P.A. rolls conceivably will increase with-
out fiirther migration.
I do not mean to indicate that there has been no Negro migration since 1934,
but I feel certain that its extent has been highly exaggerated. The fear of this
migration has done much to make more tense race relation within the city. The
INTERSTATE :MIGRATI0N 1Q9|
reci'iir serrlement law which required 3 years" residence before an individual was
eligible was, in the opinion of many ijers<nis. aimed directly at the Negro. That
this law has "'boomeranged"' and has worked an injustice on many whites, who
have mo\"ed from one township to another, indicates the danger and folly of at-
tempting to single out a particular race against which to direct discriminatory
legislation. Any plea for the alleviation of social problems in the Negro com-
munity — such as, for example, the housing problem whereby Negroes rtay 2.")
percent more rent than whites for similar housing facilities — is often met with
The argument that to improve conditions in the Black Belt of Chicago would be
ro invite hordes of black sharecroppers to invade the city. The growth of this
myth is. in my opinion, the foremost factor in making difficult or impossible any
improvement in the critical problems of housing, health, and unemployment
among Negroes in the city. With no method of establishing the truth or falsity
of the proposition there is little that can be accomplished until the results of the
1940 census are made public.
POSITION OF NEGRO IN URBAN CENTER
The relati(mship between increases in the Negro population in cities and the
problems of interracial adjustment are so intimately related that it is perhaps
wise to spend some time on an analysis of the position of the Negro in a city such
as Chicago and the possibility for increased tension which might arise from a
ilisequilibrium in the delicately balanced race relations.
The position of the Negro in Chicago and in most urban centers can be regarded
from two viewpoints — Negroes as competitors and Negroes as a fixed status
group. In certain areas of social life in Chicago, Negroes participate as competi-
tors, in others they are noncompetitors. The competition of Negroes for space,
for jobs, and for political power in Chicago is recognized both by Negroes and by
whites. Underneath these there is, of course, the Darwinian "struggle for sur-
vival" a basic and unconscious biological process in wliich, it has been pointed
out, Negroes are steadily losing. Competition for space is a basic ecological
process, which in a city where ethnical segregation occurs may be i-egarded as
competition between ethnic groups. Whites in Chicago "allowed" Negroes to
take over areas formerly occupied by whites until the next territory in the path of
the "invaders" was of value from the viewpoint of The white inhabirants. Cinnpe-
tition for space has been limited by restrictive covenants which epitomizes the
principle of fixed status in the housing field. Negroes are limited in their compe-
tition for jobs by lack of skills and training as well as race prejudice and prob-
ably only in times of labor shortage are Negroes (ompeting with whites on
equal terms.
The political power of Negroes is fully realized by Chicago's politicians and by
Chicago ]\^egroes themselves, though they have never been able to exert tlie influ-
ence which their vote should give them. However, in politics, Negroes have
made gains which could not have been attained through other means.
As a result of the limitations which have Itecn placed upon Negroes, there has
develo))ed in ("hicago a compact, pliysically isolated group, unable to enjoy most
of the facilities enjoyed by the general population, and appearing to many whites
as a constant threat to their property values, their health, their moral standing
and their community organization. This conflict between the drive for the Negro
for income, security, and status and the fear on the part of the white population,
whipped up by antagonistic real estate interests and reactionary commercial
groups, who fear Negroes might become public charges has, and probably will
in the future break into open conflict. The race riot of 1019 resulted from the
competition of Negroes with middle class whites for residential areas and with
working class wiiites for jobs. The problems of adjustment which face an even
larger population at the present time are basically the same, with one important
additioiial complicating factor. In 1919 Negroes antagonized a section of the
white middle class by moving into "their" territory and a section of the working
class by competing with them for jobs. At the present time the additional prob-
lem of the reacti(»n of large and influential groups throughout the city — civic
leaders, businessmen, mainifacturers, and industrialists, and social workers —
who ai-e ntider the in)pression That the invading hordes of black share croppers
]^Q92 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
will inundate the city and become a public burden is present. The racial preju-
dice which is to be found within most classes of white citizens in America, is
being augmented by the sharp fear of the possible increase of taxes from an
increased relief load. This had made large groups of persons aware of the
"Negro problem" and has robbed Negroes of the tolerance of a group of persons
with whom they have not previously been in direct contact. Now, the building
of a school in the Negro area, the beginning of a hospital drive, the installation
of a tratfic light, or any other minor improvement in the Negro community, calls
forth from great numbers of these groups, a reiteration of the prevalent myth
concerning further Negro migration.
V
RIi:SUME OF PRESENT PROBLEMS AND SUGGESTED SOLUTIONS
In previous sections the writer has attempted to point out that much of the
fear that large groups of Negroes are migrating to the city is unfounded. He has
also attempted to sliow the disastrous effect which this belief has had on the
difficult problem of interracial adjustment in the city. The obvious question
which presents it.self is that of the establishment of a policy of control. Un-
doubtedly as long a^ there are differences in economic opportunities in various
sections of the country there will be a tendency for some of the iwpulatiqn to
move to those areas which offer them better opportunities. Such noneconomic
factors as .sentimental attachment to various localities, cultural identification
with various sections and plain lethargy, are in my opinion likely to be under-
estimated by persons who put too great emphasis on purely economic factors. The
difficulty in attempting to plan a migration policy in respect to the Negro is
that racial prejudice might encourage policies which would act as a precedent
for stripping Negroes of their constitutional rights. With the failure of the 3-
year settlement law there will be, undoubtedly, attempts to legislate more directJv
against Negroes on the basis of color. That these laws would not be constitutional
will not necessarily deter persons from introducing them. It is obvious that this
form of legislation strikes at the heart of our democratic ideology which is more
important to preserve at the present time than is the development of a migration
policy. It is certain, however, that as long as the myth of migration continues
extra-legal methods, including dLscriminatory behavior on the part of public
officials and agencies and even vigilante movements will develop.
It has been pointed out that Negroes were needed to meet the expanding indus-
try during the first World War. At the present time the Negro constitutes the
only labor pool from which an expanding war economy can draw. If America
should become involved in war, doubtless the situation in 1916 would be repeated
and labor agents from Chicago would again scour the South to offer free trans-
portation to sharecroppers. Many of the persons now connected with the basic
industries who are decrying the possibility of further Negro migration might of
necessity find it necessary to reverse their position. Any barriers to iwpulation
movements, even if legal, might in a critical moment seriously hamiier the rearm-
ament program of the Nation.
It is the opini(»n of the writer, then, that attempts to control the migration of
Negroes, even if such migration fi'om the point of the community welfare was ill-
advised, might endanger the constitutional rights of Negroes (and therefore the
constitutional rights of all persons), and might prevent a smooth adjustment of
the labor force to the expansion of productive facilities of the country. At the
present moment it is obvious to any student of the problem that sutticient data are
not at hand to evaluate the social consequences of this migration much less
attempt to determine what would be a socially justifiable policy. The need for
further study is to the writer the one obvious conclusion.
The nature of the adjustment of Negroes to cities is the result of many
different factors. The type of adjustment varies according to the type of
migrants — their background, birthplace, sex, age, and expectations : according to
the type of city — its location, its size, age, and economic function ; according to the
historical, social, and economic circumstances under which the migration occurred,
both in points of origin and points of destination ; and according to the volume of
migration at any given period. From the study of all of these facts in relation
to the adjustment of Negroes to cities could be derived not only a general state-
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1093
ment as to the present nature of Negro-white relations in the city studied, but
also a description of the adjustment of Negroes to specific cities, and ultimately a
hypothesis on which to predict the nature of the adjustment of future migrants to
specific cities and types of cities. When such data are available it will be possible
to plan a rational migration policy.
The problems of the adjustment of the urban Negro are not at the present time
receiving the attention of scholars or Government agencies which their importance
warrants. There is no institution which is specifically engaged in research on
Negroes in our northern cities. If the belief of some students, whose opinion is
that there will be a continued migration of Negroes to the city, is true, the future
area of most severe interracial tension will shift northward to an urban milieu.
The establishment of an institute for the gathering and compiling of data on this
problem is of pressing necessity. The study of the Negro in the city would include
gathering data on existence of such problems as crime, delinquency, incidence of
contagious diseases, unsanitary living conditions, open conflict with other groups
for jobs and residential areas, and those social unhealthy conditions that have
caused such occurrences as the Chicago race riot of 1919, the economic boycott of
the South Side in the late twenties, and the Harlem riot of 1935. Only through
the understanding of the position of the Negro in northern cities, which can be
obtained through unbiased scientific material, can we gain the information and
insight necessary for dealing with this great problem. Any program of action
which is not based upon factual data, that is directed against any specific group
rather than the solution of the economic and social problem of the distribution of
men and resources, may lead to serious difficulties. There is already evident an
attempt to "black wash" the relief problem and to fight the giving of adequate
support by raising the race question — by attempting to show that Negroes gamble
and drink up their relief allotment and that more and more are coming from the
South to further burden the city. We know from our observation of various
European countries the danger of allowing persons to fight an economic and social
problem through focusing the antagonisms of the community on a scapegoat race.
TESTIMONY OF HOWARD D. GOULD AND FRAYSER T. LANE—
Resumed
Mr. OsMERs. Have you studied his statement ?
Mr. Gould. Yes. I have o-one over it.
Mr. OsMERS. You have o:one over the statement, and feel qualified
to give the committee some views in connection with that statement?
Mr. Gould. Yes.
Mr. OsMERS. I am not going to call upon you individually. I am
just going to shoot questions at you, and whichever ones you feel
(jualified to answer, I will leave that up to you.
Mr. Gould. All right.
Mr. OsMERS. When did the great increase in tlie Negro population
of the North occur, and what caused the sudden exodus from tlie
South?
NEGRO MIGRATION TO NORTH — 1914
Mr. Gould. The migration began shortly after the outbreak of the
World War, between 1913 and 1914, June of 1913 and June of 1914.
The industries of the North had been expanding. They had been
absorbing migrants from Europe. That year there Avere approxi-
mately l,4o4,0(J0 migrants from Europe.
In August of 1914 war broke out, stopping migration from Eiiiope
completely. At the same time, the demand of the industries in the
IQQ4: INTERSTATE MIGRATION
North and Middle West remained, and they went south in order to
recruit labor ; the labor available was the Negro. They sent south and
began to bring Negro workers not only to Chicago, but to all of the
industrial centers of the North and Middle West, where there was a
wartime boom.
Mr. OsMERS. What was the economic lot of the Negroes from the
South in the first migration to the North, from 1913 to 1919?
Mr. Gould. At that time they were bringing tliose i^eople in to give
them work, specifically.
Mr. OsMERS. Yes,
Mr. Gould. They were bringing them in directly to jobs.
Mr. OsMERS. What were those jobs paying?
Mr. Gould. Wages were high at that time. They ran about $1 an
hour and in excess of that at times.
Mr. OsMERs. So they leally were brought to a very favorable
economic situation?
Mr. Gould. From tlie work standpoint ; yes, they were.
Mr. OsMERS. Yes.
Mr. Gould. There were housing i)roblems, tliougli.
Mr. OsMERS. There weie housing i)roblems tliat were created by
that situation?
Mr. Gould. Yes.
Mr. OsMERS. How did the city of Chicago solve that housing prob-
lem, or didn't they solve it ? Did it solve itself through pressure ?
Mr. Gould. It solved itself through pressure, by people squeezing
in where they could double up and triple up, and quadruple up. There
was extreme overcrowding.
Mr. OsMERS. Was there great resistance on the part of the white
population in the city of Chicago to that pressure ?
Mr. Gould. Yes.
Mr. OsMERS. Was there resistance to expanding the area in which
the Negro of necessity had to live at that time?
Mr. Gould. There was some resistance at certain points, certain
sections of the city.
Mr. OsMERS. Yes.
Mr. Gould. Although tlie idea of resistance can be greatly overdone.
Mr. OsMERS. To what areas in the North did most of these migrants
come?
Mr. Gould. They moved into the major industrial centers, swinging
east into New York, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Cleveland,
Columbus, and all of the Oliio cities; Toledo, Detroit, Chicago, and
St. Louis.
Mr. OsMERS. Down at our Montgomery hearing, we had Dr. Valien
of Fisk University before the committee, and he expressed the opinion
tliat there were a great many parallels between the present situation
and the one that existed in 1914. Do you agree with that ?
Mr. Lane. I do not think there are a great many parallels, although
there may be some few. There may be common social and political
pressures as far as the Negro is concerned, in the South. That might
l)e the same as it was then. But, as Mr. Gould has already stated, in
tlie earlier war period, in that migration, men were invited up. Labor
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1095
a<^eiits were sent down to offer them jobs and pay their w^ay to come
;ip here. You do not have that kind of situation existing now.
Mr. OsMERS. Taking, for example, my own State of New Jersey,
which has seen a great industrial pick-up in the last 2 years. There
has been such an industrial pick-up that at present we have a labor
shortage in the State in skilled categories. Do you not feel, carrying
that out througli the rearmament program again, that we are going to
have a labor shortage in tlie North, and again those same forces will
be at work 'i
Mr. Lane. It all depends, as far as the Negro is concerned. Many
of those industries are unionized and do not absorb Negroes easily.
In some industries they do not employ Negroes, where they have
unionized shops.
NEGROES AND LABOR UNIONISM
Mr. OsMERS. Would you make the general statement, or agree with
the general statement, that labor unionism in the North will work
against the migration of Negroes from the South?
Mr. Lane. I vrould not make that statement.
Mr. Osmers. With particular reference to the preparedness program
and the skilled labor?
Mr. Lane. Would you want to comment on that?
Mr. Gould. No; I would not agree. Barriers against new workers
erected by labor unions only exist on a seniority basis. When there is
a demand for labor, the labor unions themselves do not restrict mem-
bership. If there is sufficient demand for labor so that all of the
local workers are employed, you will not find any barriers erected by
the labor unions.
Mr. Osmers. In my personal opinion, I do not agi-ee with that state-
ment. I believe there are some unions that are attempting to exclude
Negroes, no matter how good business gets.
Mr. Gould. That would be true, but the men would still be coming
in as laborers.
Mr. Osmers. You mean on the lower economic scale ?
Mr. Gould. Yes.
Mr. Osmers. Of course, that would not have any bearing upon the
unionization of the skilled laborers. Naturally, the Chicago Urban
League, which you represent, has made a very intensive study of the
Negro problem in Chicago.
]Mr. Gould. Yes.
Mr. Osmers. I know that, because I used to read your magazine,
Opportunity — is that it?
Mr. Gould. Yes.
Mr. Osmers. James Weldon Johnson used to be a great contributor,
I believe.
Mr. Gould. Yes.
Mr. Osmers. I used to read it with a great deal of interest. Was
this study of the Chicago situation completed by the Urban League ?
Mr. Gould. Yes.
260370—40 — pt. 3 19
JQQQ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
INCOME OF NEGROES IN CHICAGO
Mr. OsMERS. What did you find to be the average income of Negroes
in this city ?
Mr. Gould. We did this : We decided it would be difficult to cleter-
mine the income of Negroes by a single average, because in examining
the entire group we found they fell into three classes. For example,
there are those persons who are employed in the steel mills, the pack-
ing plants, and some of the big factories in Chicago, like the Inter-
national Harvester Co., who work in skilled occupations and have been
with those concerns for a number of years, where the employment is
fairly steady. They make a pretty good wage.
We arrived at these three averages : The group of men represented
in the higher bracket consisted of about 20 percent of the total Negro
population and had an average income of between $1,800 and $2,000
a year. That is the 20-percent group. There is another group num-
bering between 35 and 40 percent of the Negro population. This is
as of the present moment I am giving these statistics.
Mr. Os3iERs. Yes.
Mr. Gould. The second group consists of people who are employed,
in the case of women, in the garment shops, where they are protected
by minimum-wage legislation and men who are employed as porters
and occupations of that kind, and then, too, the laborers in the meat-
packing plants and steel mills and on the railroads. The average
income of this group, the average annual income would be approxi-
mately $1,000 a year.
Mr. OsMERs. Yes.
NEGROES ON RELIEF
Mr. Gould. Then we have a large group, the remaining 40 percent
consisting of persons who are not now employed, who are in fact em-
ployable, whose income is derived through W. P. A., or through the
aid of the Chicago Relief Administration. Of that 40 percent, ap-
proximately 15 percent of them will be W. P. A. workers with an
average annual wage of $55 a month. The remaining 25 percent would
be on relief, and their average income would vary with the size of their
family. In many cases it would not be more than $350 or $400 a year.
Mr. OsMERs. So at the most, 40 percent of the Negro population
in Chicago is not self-supporting?
Mr. Gould. That is right.
INIr. Os:mers. Would you tell the committee your interpretation of
the fact that so man}' Negroes, such a large percentage of the Negroes
in Chicago, are on relief?
Mr. Gould. Yes. The majority of the Negroes that came to Chi-
cago were employed in three brackets, the iron and steel industry, the
packing industry, and the building industry or construction industry.
When the depression hit, those industries were most aifected by the
decline. Steel, for example, fell to 20 percent of capacity. Build-
ing construction fell oif to 10 percent of the normal level. Therefore,
})erhaps 80 or 90 percent of the people engaged in iron and steel pro-
duction and in building construction were unemployed.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1097
Since the great majority of the Negroes who were employed were
employed in those industries, they were harder hit than w^ould be
true of the population generally, and a larger proportion of Negroes
than of the population generally had to find their only assistance
through the Relief Administration.
Now then, recently, although those industries have picked up, this
is what has happened : A man, we will assume, in the steel industry
when the depression came, was 40 years old. Now in 1940 when the
steel industry is booming he is 50 years old. He does not go back into
the industry.
Mr. OsMERS. You have the age factor coming into it now?
Mr. Gould. Yes.
Mr. OsMERS. Is it your belief that tliese numbers on relief have been
increased as a result of migration from the South ?
Mr. Lane. I am sure they have been, because there have been migra-
tions from the South since relief has started. There are many people
on relief who have not been able to get satisfactory jobs, so they have
contributed to the relief increase.
Mr. OsMERs. I see.
Mr. Gould. Not so much, though, for this reason : The majority of
the people coming in here as migrants come in from the rural areas of
the South.
Mr. OsMERs. Yes.
Mr. Gould. They are used to woi-king hard. They come in here to
Chicago primarily to find work. The Chicagoan, the Negro living in-
Chicago, is accustomed to the fact that there is no Avork. He has
looked here for a job. He couldn't find one. He has looked quite
some time. He has become somewhat imbued with the thought or ha&
succumbed or submitted to the thought that there is no work.
The migrant comes in, and this is what happens : A migrant is not
accustomed to going to the steel mills or to the meat-packing plants.
He just walks down the street looking for a job. He w^ill tend to-
look for work a lot of places where the ordinary resident who lives in
Chicago and knows all about the city does not. You will find migrants
picking up jobs, odd jobs as day laborers and odd jobs as helpers in all
sorts of places. The investigation we have made of several thousand
cases tends to show that over half of the migrants actually land some
kind of job before they have been in Chicago 2 weeks.
Mr. OsMERS. As I understand it, migrants coming into the city of
Chicago would have to be here for some period of time before they
would be eligible for relief, would they not ?
Mr. Gould. Three years.
Mr. OsMERS. He certainly could not live for 3 years on the meager
resources he brought with him from the South. It is not likely that
anyone woidd support him here. Would not the pressure of hunger
contribute a great deal toward his getting employment ?
Mr. Lane. I did not mean to give the impression that they came here
to get relief. P^ventually, after working at smaller jol)s. and so forthy
some of them finally do get on relief.
Mr. OsMERS. I understood the point I think you were driving at
there. I wonder if you would compare for the committee the posi-
j;Qg§ INTERSTATE MIGRATION
tion of the Negro and the white person during tlie hist decade in Chi-
cago with reference to those in the lower-income level?
HOUSING PROBLEM OF NEGROES IN CHICAGO
Mr. Gould. The administration of relief, of course, has provided
the same budgets for one group as the other, but there has been this
difference, and the difference arises through the housing problem in
Chicago : The areas in which Negroes live are definite and are restricted
by a system of restrictive covenants we have here. That means that
the number of homes Negroes occupy is limited. Then in addition to
that, back in 1933 and 1934 they had a demolition program, through
which
Mr. OsMERs. In what years?
Mr. Gould. 1935 was the biggest year; 1934, 1935, and 1936.
Mr. OsMERs. Yes.
Mr. Gould. They demolished buildings, so-called unsafe or unsani-
tary buildings.
Mr. OsMERS. Did they replace them?
Mr. Gould. They did not. They demolished 5,000 or 6,000 housing
units. Tliat meant there was very definitely a shortage of houses.
The shortage of homes had the peculiar phenomena of increasing rents
during a depression period, and as a result the Negro group have had to
pay rents running two or three times as high, to use a figure in a
comparison of that kind, than the white person on relief.
The white person on relief might be able to find a small home con-
sisting of four or five rooms which he could rent for $15 or $20 a month.
The Negro on relief will take his family of four or five persons and be
forced to rent only one room for the whole five and he would pay from
$5 to $7 a w^eek for that room, his rental for the month being between
$20 to $30.
Mr. OsMERS. For the purposes of the record, I wonder if you would
transpose the Negro's rent to monthly terms^ so we can have the
comparison.
Mr. Gould. The white person would pay $15 to $18 a month for a
four- or five-room place. The Negro would pay from $20 to $30 a
month for one room.
Mr. OsMERS. $20 to $30 a month for one room ?
Mr. Gould. Yes.
Mr. O.^MERS. Are you absolutely sure of that figure?
Mr. Gould. Yes.
Mr. L.\NE. The Chicago Relief Administration has a policy of $25
a month for one room, with steam heat and lighting.
Ml'. OsMERS $25 a month for one room?
Mr. Lane. That is right.
Mr. OsMERS. The whole family is supposed to live in that one room?
Mr. Gould, They do, and in some cases two families.
Mr. OsMERS. Two families?
Mr. Lane. Yes.
Mr. Gould, We have gone up as high as 9 and 11 persons living in 1
room.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1099
Mr. OsMERS. So if a Nejjro family in Chicago wanted to have four
rooms, it conld cost him $80 a month ?
Mr. Gould. It could. Actually, the landlords would rather divide
up apartments into small units, and are not eager to rent larger apart-
ments.
Mr. Osmers. It does not ?
Mr. Gould. No.
Mr. Osmers. You can get four rooms probably for $40?
Mr. Gould. Fifty dollars.
J\Ir. Osmers. Forty or fifty dollars?
Mr. Gould. Yes.
JNIr. Osmers. Which would be extremely high rent.
INIr. Gould. Yes.
]\Ir. Osmers. It would be out of the question for the relief family ?
Mr. Gould. Yes.
JNIr. Parsons. May I interrupt you at that point ?
Mr. Osmers. Yes.
projected housing program
Mr. Parsons. Has not anything been done by the local authorities
here in the Avay of a housing program ?
Mr. Gould. We had a lot of opposition to our housing program, Mr.
Congressman, at the start, but now it is nearing completion. In about
4 months the housing project will be completed, and will be one of the
largest in the country, housing 1,700 families. That will be of con-
siderable help to us.
Mr. Osmers. When will that be completed ?
Mv. Gould. They hope people will begin to move in in November.
Mr. Paesons. What is the rent going to be ? What is it going to cost
colored people for this, for decent livino; quarters ?
Mr. Gould. It will cost them from $18 to $25. Eighteen dollars
would be for the three- or four-room apartments. For approximately
$25 they would have a five- or six-room apartment.
Mr. Parsons. They can get an apartment to live in, those who are
fortunate enough to get into these new apartments, this new structure —
they can get decent housing quarters for about what they are paying
for one room now ?
Mr. Gould. Yes.
Mr. Osmers. Will this housing project be erected by the United
States Housing Authority?
Mr. Gould. Yes.
Mr. Osmers. Do you happen to know whether they wnll restrict those
apartments to income-earning families, or will relief people be
allowed to move in ?
Mr. Gould. They will admit, as they have to other projects in Chi-
cago, persons who are on relief.
RACE relations IN CHICAGO
Mr. Osmers. Thei-e is a question I would like to touch on, because it
is very, very important: What is happening to race relations in the
]^]^00 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
city of Chicago as a result of great relief percentage, poor housing
conditions, and the great pressure under which Negroes must live in
this city?
Mr. "Gould. There are two schools of thought, or two reactions.
Some people contend race antagonism is increasing because, for ex-
ample, of the legal battle now going on over the restrictive covenants.
Mr. OsMERS. Will you define that term "restrictive covenants,"
before you go any further ?
Mr, GoTJLD. They are covenants entered into by the property owners
through w^hich they agree not to rent or sell the property to Negroes.
Mr. OsMERS. They agree between themselves, or with the city?
Mr. Gould. Between themselves.
Mr. OsMERS. They agree not to allow Negroes into their real estate ?
Mr. Gould. Yes.
Mr. Lane. That is, with respect to living in property on the street.
They can live in servants' quarters in the back of the premises in a
restricted area.
Mr. OsMERS. But they must live as servants; that is, they must be
bona fide domestics?
Mr. Gould. Yes.
Mr. Lane. They must be bona fide domestics.
Mr. Gould. There is that one source of antagonism, perhaps, be-
tween just a few people. By and large, race relations in Chicago are
improving very steadily.
Mr. OsMERS. That would be your opinion?
Mr. Gould. That would be my opinion. That would be evidenced
by the willingness of employers to consider the problem of Negro
labor ; to consider meeting in conference and discussing the possibility
of providing jobs for Negroes. It would be evidenced by the attitude
of labor unions, the unions' willingness to take Negroes into member-
ship. It is evidenced by the attitude of the city generally, which has
adopted a broad attitude in that regard.
Mr. OsMERS. Do you feel that the large number of Negroes on relief
in Chicago has contributed to the new 3-year settlement law that was
passed?
Mr. Gould. Yes ; I do.
Mr. OsMERS. You think that was a factor ?
Mr. Gould. I think so.
Mr. OsMERS. Would you say that is working a hardship solely upon
Negroes ?
Mr. Gould. No; it is not.
Mr. Lane. It is working a hardship both on whites and Negroes.
Mr. OsMERS. That is the point I wanted to make there.
Mr. Gould. It does work a hardship on both.
Mr. Lane. There are a lot of white people who move away, and who
have then returned and attempted to secure assistance from the State,
and it has worked a hardship on them, as well as people coming in
from the Southern States.
Mr. OsMERS. It has a tendency then to freeze population?
Mr. Gould. Yes.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1101
Mr. OsMERS. And make it more static, because it restricts the move-
ment of destitute persons?
Mr. Gould. I think it works a greater hardship on white people.
Mr. OsMERS. Now, if the 48 States should preserve these rigid settle-
ment laws that are now on the books, is it your opinion that might have
some adverse effect upon our rearmament program if there should be
a shortage of labor in the North here?
Mr. Gould. Frankly; no.
Mr. OsMERS. You do not think it would?
Mr. Gould. No. In other words, people living in Chicago, for ex-
ample, who migrated in here in the first migration, as far as Negroes
are concerned, have friends and relatives living in the South. They
go back to visit their friends and relatives when they are sick, when
they are ill, or when someone dies.
Now, for example, we will assume they needed workers in the steel
mills out in South Chicago. The word would pass very rapidly to
various sections of the country. Those men would come in specifically
because they knew they were going to the jobs in the steel mills.
Mr. OsMERS. They would not hesitate to inform them about it, be-
cause they would feel they would be self-supporting when they got
here ?
Mr. Gould. Yes.
Mr. Lane. I would like to mention one fact. There seems to be a
tendency now on the part of the Federal Government, especially in
this defense program, to provide adequate housing for people who are
going to places where labor is needed. Without supervision of that,
there may be a great deal of hardships and difficulties similar to situa-
tions where private agencies have had labor go into places without
any adequate living quarters.
Mr. OsMERS. Have you found in Chicago that your public employ-
ment offices have given Negroes a fair share of their recognition and
their opportunity ?
Mr. Gould. Yes.
Mr. OsMERS. The public employment offices?
Mr. Gould. Yes. The United States Employment Service oper-
ates jointly with the Illinois State Unemployment Service and has
been very cooperative and very fair in every respect.
Mr. OsMEKS. They have received applications and hunted jobs out
without any prejudice or malice?
Mr. Gould. Yes. That is right.
RECOMMENDATIOXS FOR FEDERAL AID
Mr. OsMERS. I see. Do you believe in general it would be a wase
thing for this Government and this country to concentrate on its
program of improving rural conditions in the South, or do you think
that they should concentrate their efforts upon making the North
more attractive?
Mr. Gould. I would say this : From a technical point of view, most
of the problem arises not from migration due to a desire to obtain
relief, or anything like that, but is due rather to the desire of those
11Q2 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
people down there to make a living. They leave, primarily, with the
thought or the idea that they can land jobs here in the city.
I would say this: First of all, there is the difficulty involved in
improving or devising programs of development in the South. Pro-
grams of that type would be better perhaps than j^roviding something
in the North, although it seems to me this should be done. A pro-
gram should be devised that would tend to eliminate, through the
Federal Government, the suffering in areas where the situation is such
that unemployed are not cared for by local governments. I should
say the Government should also look into the possibilities of develop-
ing a program which would tend to — I will use a slang expression —
boost the economy of those areas migrants are leaving, because there
is another problem involved in the migration to large cities. Indus-
try is becoming decentralized, but the migrants are moving into this
region at the same time the industries are moving out.
Mr. OsMERS. That is all I have.
Mr. Parsons. Are there any other questions ?
Mr. Sparkman. Yes. I was interested in the housing project you
described, consisting of 1,700 units, I believe you said.
Mr. Gould. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. Will that be sufficient to relieve the pressure to
such an extent that prices will be adjusted to a more normal level?
Mr. Gould. I do not think so. There is extreme overcrowding,
and the pressure is very great. However, I do think this many units
will help a great deal.
]\Ir. Sparkman. Are there any other projects underway or contem-
plated?
Mr. Gould. The Authority has been considering another project,
but it has been moving very slowly with it.
Mr. Lane. I might mention that about 1,700 units were displaced
when they tore down and prepared the land for this new building,
so that you simply would be replacing just a few more than you actu-
ally tore down.
Mr. Sparkman. Was that number involved in this, the 5,000 or
some such number you mentioned were demolished?
Mr. Gould. No.
Mr. Sparkman. The 5,000 units that were demolished were in addi-
tion to these 1,700?
Mr. Lane. Yes.
Mr. Gould. Yes.
Mr. Sparkman. That is all.
Mr. OsMERS. I notice in Dr. Cayton's statement, he makes refer-
ence to the fact, as I recall the statement, that the increase in the
Negro population is negative. There has been no substantial increase
in the native Chicago Negro population. With the death rate being
as high as it is, it has tended to keep the population about even.
Mr. Gould. That was for a period of 4 or 5 years, 1933, 1934, 1935,
1936, and 1937. As to the death rate and the birth rate, tlie exact
figures were around 4.100 births and 4.200 deaths; then 4,200 births
and 4,100 deaths. Last year it jumped again. For 1939 there were
a few more than 5,000 births and only 4,200 deaths. We are beginning
to have a small natural increase.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1103
Mr. OsMEKS. A small natural increase of native Chicagoans?
Mr. Gould. Yes.
Mr. OsMERS. So that the Negro population has started to increase
very slightly ?
Mr. Gould. Yes.
Mr. OsMERS. And any important increase in the population would
come through migration ?
Mr. Gould. That is right.
Mr. OsMERS. That is, within the next 10 years?
Mr. Gould. Yes.
Mr. OsMERS. Not through an increase of the birth rate over the
death rate?
Mr. Goui d. That is correct.
Mr. OsMERs. That is all.
Mr. ParsojSS. Are there any other questions? (No response.) Do
you live in Congressman Arthur Mitchell's district ?
Mr. GoTTLD. Yes. We both do.
Mr. Pi^Rpoxs. Do you know your Congressman?
Mr. Gould. We know the Congressman.
Mr. Parsons. Is he giving you satisfactory representation in
Congress ?
Mr. Gould. ]\Iay this be off the record ?
Mr. Parsons. Yes. Off the record. Mr. Reporter.
(Discussion outside the record.)
Mr. Parfons. The statement which lias been prepared by Dr. Cayton
will be received as part of the formal record. Thank you, gentlemen.
(Whereupon, Mr. Gould and Mr. Lane were excused.)
Mr. Parsons. At this time I wish to say to the committee that Mv.
Walter W. Finke, director of the division of social welfare, de-
partment of social security, St. Paid, Minn., has submitted a state-
ment. He was unable to come here personally. It seems to me to
be a very fine statement. Without oljjection it will be made a part
of our formal record.
Statement by Walter W. Finke, Director. Division of Social Welfare, Depart-
ment OF Social Secltrity, St. Paut.. IMinn.
interstate migration OF destitute citizens as it affects the state of MINNESOTA
This statement is prepared at the request of Representative John H. Tolan and
relates to the problem of needy and destitute migrant persons so far as the State
of Minnesota is concerned. The statement attempts, in brief compass, to describe
the nature and breadth of this problem in Minnesota. Unfortunately, little or no
data which are statistically accurate and r-onplete are available. However, the
experience of State and State-Federal welfare and relief agencies which liave
been at grips with this problem for the past 10 years in the State of Minnesota
furnish the basis for a reliable analysis of the whole problem in more general
terms.
For the purpose of this statement, the following definitions are used in order
to clear tlie confusion as between the terms "migrant" and "transient"' :
Migrant. — Worker on the move: one who follows seasonal employment witli the
seasons : one who intends to go on.
Transient. — Worker who has gone off the road (or was never on it) and is
temporarily settled, often without work in view.
1104
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
It should be pointed out that both of these categories of persons do not have
the period of residence within the State necessary to give them the status known
as "legal settlement." Hence, at present, such persons cannot legally be provided
with assistance from State funds appropriated for general relief purposes. Under
section 8 of chapter 436 of the Session Laws of Minnesota for l^JAQ which appro-
priated State funds for the poor and which provided for the administration ot
these State funds, the legislature stipulated that "Before a person is^ entitled to
the benefits of this act, he shall have maintained a settlement m this State • ■
for the period of 2 years * * *." It should further be noted that, in view of
this limitation upon State funds which are provided to local governmental units
as a supplement to cover total relief costs, that these local subdivisions uf govern-
ment have limited the granting of assistance to needy migrants or transients to
only the most necessitous emergency situations and, even in that event, only upon
a brief and temporary basis. This legal-legislative situation is undoubtedly sub-
stantiallv similar to that which prevails in most States.
The number of migrants who enter Minnesota annually hi search of seasonal
employment including those who make up the families of such migrants, has been
varioiislv estimated from 15,000 to 25,000 people. The vast majority of these
persons, when their seasonal work is completed, move on to other States in search
of further seasonal employment. However, a small percentage remains in the
State either by reason of illness, lack of funds, or the hope of further employ-
ment' in Minnesota. Records of the former State relief agency indicate that in
the year 1938, 293 migrant families remained in Minnesota and applied for and
received some form of temporary assistance. In 1939 the figures are approxi-
mately the same. The.se figures represent only the known cases.
By way of general definition, it may be indicated that the industries in Minne-
sota which offer employment to the migrant are: (1) The sugar-be.-t industry
(2) the timber industry; (3) the truck-gardening and canning industries; (4)
general agriculture; and (5) the Great Lakes shipping trade.
The sufjur-beet industry.— The sugar-beet industry in Minnesota requires and
employs between 3,000 and 4,000 migrant laborers annually. This is for the
blocking and thinning and pulling and topping processes of raising and harvesting
the sugar beets. These migrants are predominantly Mexican. The employment
is seasonal and covers only approximately 60 workdays between May and July
and between September and November. A study of this group, made in 1937 and
1938 by the Minnesota State Relief Agency, indicated that the majority of this
labor comes from the States of Texas, Kansas, and Missouri. These persons enter
Minnesota during May and leave during November. There is a normal industrial
demand for this tvpe of migratory labor in this particular industry-
The usual method of transportation for these people is by automobile or truck.
Often the trucks used in bringing these people to Minnesota are ordinary cattle
trucks that carry between 30 and 40 persons on each trip. The emigration of this
group begins as 'soon as the beet crop is harvested. While little is known of the
group of beet workers that leave Minnesota each fall, there has grown up a
residual group of nonresidents who present serious welfare problems. It is
estimated that this residual group now exceeds 6,000 in total number throughout
the State A studv made of this group by the State relief agency m 1965-67
indicated the predominant need of relief in this group, a prevalence of poor
and inadequate housing, retardation of children of school age, and serious health
and child-welfare problems. Legal limitation on expenditure of State funds for
nonresidents and the financial inability of local units of government to make pro-
vision for anvthing except urgent emergency situations, both medical and other-
wise, has made it diflicult to develop any sound program of assistance and
service for this group of persons.
TJie timber industrv.— It is estimated that the timber industry annually attracts
between 2,000 and 3,000 migrant laborers to northern Minnesota. These workers
are almost without exception single men looking for employment ni the timber
camps Sample studies have indicated that this group comes from Michigan,
Wisconsin, North Dakota, and Washington. These men, arriving in the early
fall, seldom have definite employment upon their arrival. However, the majority
of them secure jobs as soon as work opens up in the timber camps.
The problem created bv this group of migrants is that of providing temporary
assistance to them during the interval which occurs after their arrival and before
they obtain work. Such data as is available from the old State rehef agency
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1105
indicates that in 193,9 over 1,000 of these men received some form of temporary
assistance. Here again, the presence of legal restrictions and the financial in-
ability of local subdivisions of government to assume this burden, have made
diffieiilt the care of this group of migrants.
The truck-gardening and canning industries.— The truck-gardening and the
canning industries attract and use an estimated 1,000 to 2,000 migrant workers
annually in Minnesota.
Few of these workers have employment when they migrate to Minnesota, but
it should be noted that many of them are beet workers who arrived in Minnesota
too late to secure beet contracts and then secured garden work. These migrants
are family units who travel by automobile and move continuously until they find
work. When their work is completed, they usually return to the Southern
States where they spend the winter. The canning industries use this type of
labor for the short period of time necessary to pick the corn. The season is
short and once completed the laborer and his family move on. Housing pro-
vided by the companies for these workers during the working season is much
better than that of other migrants. Like the beet workers, some of whom
supplement their beet earnings with wages from corn picking, the majority of
these workers leave Minnesota each fall.
General agriculture. — The mechanization of agriculture and the availability
of resident unemployed workers has materially reduced the need for the migrant
farm laborer in Minnesota. Yet because of the history of Minneapolis as a
labor center for farm labor, thousands of single men still migrate to Minneapolis
and thence northwest in search of work. Many of these men apply for and
receive temporary care in Minneapolis and St. Paul.
Seamen. — The port of Duluth with the possibility of shipping out on the
Great Lakes annually attracts between 200 and 300 seamen. These men migrate
to Minnesota before the ice breaks and hope to secure work on the boats during
the summer or remain in the State when shipping closes in the fall. Sample
studies conducted by the old State relief agency indicated that these are single
persons and are generally residents of New York, Ohio, Michigan, or Wisconsin.
IMany remain in Minnesota during the winter months hoping to secure work in
the timber camps.
This group presents a special employment problem in that seamen have a
special employment skill. So far as assistance is concerned, here again the
problem is one of temporary care pending the finding of private employment.
A review of intake interviews with migrants indicates that the following
factors, among others, are related to the causes of movement of these people
from one State to another:
(1) Search for employment in industrial centers and metropolitan areas;
(2) Expectancy of receiving some form of aid from relatives or family until
employment is obtained ;
(3) Return to a State after loss of a fairly long period of employment else-
where ;
(4) A desire to secure more adequate medical care than is available in the
place from whence the migrant has come.
[The location of Mayo Clinic in Rochester, the Veterans' Hospital in Minne-
apolis, the University Hospital in IMineapolis, Ancker Hospital in St. Paul,
and the General Hospital in Minneapolis often result in the movement of
some migrants to Minnesota who are in search of or desire medical care.j
(5) Existence of a feeling that the Twin Cities are the "gateway" to the
Northwest through which many families en route from the East and South will
travel.
Outstanding among the difflculties in the field of the migrant destitute citizen
is. of course, the diversity of settlement laws as between various States. This
diversity makes it possible for a family to lose settlement for the purposes of
relief in one State, before gaining it in another. Thus, many of these people
have no State upon which they can lay claim of legal residence for the purpose
of obtaining assistance.
A further analysis of intake interviews with nonresidents in Minnesota during
the calendar year 19.39 indicates that the previous place of residence of the
majority of these people was in the following States: Wisconsin, North Dakota,
South Dakota, Illinois, Missouri, Montana, Iowa, Texas, Nebraska, and Arkansas.
]^JQg INTERSTATE MIGRATION
However, residents of 34 States were included in the group interviewed in 1930.
Contact with migratory destitute persons in Minnesota during the past several
years points to the importance of the following considerations :
(1) Recognition should be given of the normal demand for migratory labor
in certain industries. Most of these industries have a short labor season.
Hence, so far as a substantial number of these migrants are concerned, they
must face the problem of care and assistance before and after the seasonal
employment and during the intervals between migration.
(2) The problem of the migratory destitute citizens is interstate in character.
As such, it cannot be solved by individual States. It would seem that this is a
field iu which the Federal Government should assume some responsibility, per-
haps by way of the grant-in-aid device. By this means, such aid should
encourage uniformity in settlement laws, and improvement of procedures looking
to more adequate schooling of children of migrant families and provision of
certain minimums in health care. The objective should be to meet the needs
of these people, to put the migratory labor market on a sounder basis, and to take
off the load those individuals and families that have no place in the migratory
labor field.
STATEMENTS OF H. W. MORGENTHALER, ADMINISTRATIVE AS-
SISTANT, STATE DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WELFARE; AND
W. R. SULLINGER. FARM PLACEMENT SUPERVISOR FOR THE
OHIO STATE EMPLOYMENT SERVICE, COLUMBUS, OHIO
Mr. Parsons. The next witnesses will be Mr. Morgenthaler and Mr.
Snllinger.
Mr. Morgenthaler, will yon state yonr fnll name, address, and official
position for the record?
Mr. Morgenthaler. H. W. Morgenthaler. administrative assistant,
State department of pnblic w^elfare, Colnmbus, Ohio.
Mr. Parsons. Will you state yonr name, address and official position
for the record, please, Mr. Snllinger?
JNIr. SuLLiNGER. W, R. Snllinger, supervisor of farm placements,
Columbus, Ohio.
Mr. Parsons. Both of you gentlemen have submitted statements for
the record which I have gone over rather hurriedly, but which the
committee will go over in detail before the hearings are concluded.
They are rather voluminous.
(The statements referred to are as follows:)
STATEMENT BY MEMBERS OF THE OHIO STATE TRANSIENT
COMMITTEE
(Presented by H. W. Morgenthaler, State Department of Public Welfare,
Columbus, Ohio)
Foreword
Ohio, along with other sections of the United States, was developed by migrants
or, as they were then called, pioneers. In those days opportunities for support
were available and the few who were unable to get work for a temporary period,
or were almost constantly on the move, were so few that they could get assistance
from communities and individuals not already overloaded with local problems
of dependency. Depressions in the past have been followed by periods of indus-
trial expansion and the opening of new territories, or in other words, the advanc-
ing of our industrial and physical frontiers, both of which provided additional
opportunities for an excessive labor supply. During the last 10 years, economic
and industrial conditions have cau.sed shrinking of job opportunities and have
also caused a marked increase in the number of interstate migrants.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
1107
Over the years there have devehiped in Ohio large industrial centers which
ofCered excellent opportunities to both skilled and unskilled labor. At the present
time, of the 88 Ohio counties 8 have a population of over 203,000 persons, with
Cleveland and Cincinnati being the largest most highly developed centers. Need-
less to say, large numbers of people have had to migrate into these areas to meet
the demands of industry for additional men. The census figiires for the Cleveland
metropolitan district illustrate this very clearly :
Population
By birth
over death
By excess
migration
192J
943, 495
1,201,455
1930
106, 293
8, 293
Total sain .
1940
257, 960
1, 216, 529
' 151,667
Total gain
15, 074
3 6, 686
1 15,000 per year.
: 1083 3S fieures available only.
s 1,335 per year.
For the fii-st 6 months of 1940. Cuyahoga County reports an average of 11,092
persons and families cared for as nonresidents ; 7.') percent of this number, or
an average of 894 per month, were from other States.
Cincinnati gives a similar report, which indicates that approximately 25,(X);)
persons pass through this city every year. The actual figures for January
through June (a total 6-month period) 1940. 11,577 people or family groups were
cared for in Cincinnati. Of this total number, 9.995, or 87.2 percent, were-
people from other States.
As is well known, by those who have studied conditions over the past 10 years,
job opportunities have failed to develop and the persons who have migrated into
the cities and coniinunities in Ohio liave found it increasingly difl^icult to find
a means of subsistence through their own efforts. However, iu recent months
nonresident skilled mechanics have bei'ii quickly absorbed.
The situation in Akron also illustrates a condition which is common in other
industrial cities aiul which has decreased the possibility of absorbing interstate
migrants. Residents of Akron in close touch with the industrial situation advise-
that 20 years ago the rubber industry was just beginning to expand. There was
such a shortage of housing facilities and such a need for more lodging quarters,
that persons running rooming houses would rent the same bed for each of the
three 8 hour periods. Additional beds were set up on porches when weather
permitted in order to provide sleeping facilities tor the large infiux of migrants.
At the present time, it is reported the rublier industry is producing the same
quantity of goods as during the 1928-29 peak of production with many fewer
men due to better production methods and better machinery. The effect of this
trend is reflx'ted in the census figures, which show a decline in the population
of Akron over the past 10-year period. Many persons were unable to go else-
where and have remained as relief clients. Others have become interstate
migrants and because of limited resources become stranded in other States.
During 1939 the State department of welfare hanflled 2,040 letters from other
States requesting various types of informatif>ii about former Ohio residents.
Of this total, 800 were letters requesting verification of residence and authoriza-
tion to return, which gives some idea of the number of Ohio people who are
seeking opportunities elsewhere and as a result have become dependent in other
States.
Prioi" to the last decade, the vast majority of the people coming into Ohio
from other States have been independent. Ohio's actual industrial growth and
in some instances an exaggerated statement of labor needs on the part of
employers have caused the largest influx. Ohio's agriculture is of a diversifi m1
nature, with few of the seasonal croi^s requiring large numbers of people over a
short period of time. We do have conditions in the onion marsh sections. ;ind
in the sections of the State where sugar beets are grown, where certain type.s.
of "stoop" labor is needed and where it has been customary for employers to-
encourage migration of Kentuckians and Mexicans becausL^ in the onion fi 'Ids-
1108
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Kentuckians would work for a rate much lower than local labor, and in the
sugar-beet fields Mexicans were adapted to "stoop" labor.
Due to the slackening of industry over a prolonged period, Ohio has felt the
Increased pressure of interstate migration during the past 10 years. These
people have been a special burden on local communities because of the increased
amount of dependence among Ohio residents due to unemployment over the
same period It is also true that as far as farm labor is concerned, there has
been a decrease in the number of men needed due to mechanization. Small
combines corn pickers, and the use of tractors, even on the smaller (80 to 100
acre) farms have made it possible to harvest crops without the use of extra
farm hands 'through the summer and fall. Many of these farm hands used ni
the past have been local men.
These people are truly a people, not without a country, but many ot them are
witl.'out a State.
Types of Destitute Interstate Migrant
As we have studied the problems in Ohio through the cooperation of the State
transient committee and the S^ate welfare departnr.nt over the past 2 years, we
have concluded that the destitute citizens who migrate into Ohio can be divide(/
into special types. Some of these types are the following :
1 Tho.;e following or seeking seasonal work :
(a) Sailors have presented a special problem due to tlie practices of the Great
Lakes steamship companies. The shipping season lasts during the time the Lakes
are ice-free. In tho fall boats tie up for the winter usually at the port where
they happen to be when ice stops navigation. Recent regulations make it neces-
sary for all sailors who wish steady jobs for the next season to make their appli-
cation at the home office of the steamship company. Cleveland seems to be
headquarters for most of the shipping lines operating on the Great Lakes. Sailors
who happen to winter in Duluth, Chicago, or other lake ports must lind their
way to Cleveland in order to secure a job for the next season. This makes it
necessary for them to find their way to Cleveland and back to the port from
which they are ordered to sail. Many of these men end the season with little
if any resources left. They have expected better local assistance than other
relief clionts and have caused a peculiar problem for the lake ports of Cleveland
and Toledo. , _ , ^ i.^ ^
(h) Workers in the beet fields have been imported from lower Texas. Most
of these people are Mexicans who. it is reported, are hired by the beet growers,
transported from Texas to Ohio by truck witliout being permitted to leave the
(ruck en route and returned in the fall. Whole families are brought in tempo-
rary houses set up. and all members of the family able to work participate.
Studies of these conditions have been made by the United States Children's Bureau
and by the National Child Labor Committee, and detailed facts, we believe, would
be available from either source. The Ohio employment service is developing the
cooperaMon of employers in order to replace tlie Mexican laborers with local men
capable of doing "stoop" labor.
2. Another group of interstate destitute migrants which create considerable
burden on local communities are those seeking medical care not available in
their own communities. The large industrial centers in Ohio have, along with
their industrial development, also developed a social consciousness which has
caused them to develop fine health welfare, and recreational agencies financed
by both public and private funds for assisting persons not able to meet their own
needs in these fields. The efforts of the United States Public Health Service to
impress upon the general public the necessity for adequate care for venereal
diseases has caused a large number of persons, when they become aware of their
need for treatment, to seek such treatment in Ohio cities where they are legally
nonresidents. Many of these people are from other States. This is particularly
true in Cincinnati and other border cities near States which do not have the
same resource's which are available in Ohio. Others seek specialized medical
services to meet in-ohlems they cannot meet locally.
3. Those who find themselves out of work in their place of legal settlement in
other States because of the mechanization of industry are also a large number
of the people coming into Ohio as interstate migrants. Closing of mines due to
mechanization, improvement of agricultural methods in the South, restriction of
acreage und^r cultivation, and other factors of this type have caused this group
of people to become interstate migrants. It is also true that employers have
caused displaced people or excess laborers to move from their home communities
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1109
by the distribution of handbills (in one instance by airplane in the Kentucky
mountains), picturing employment needs to be in excess of the number of i)eople
actually needed, has In-ousbt many more people from other States than plants
could possibly absorb. Skilled laborers displaced elsewhere, who have come iu
recently, expecting- war industry booms are not much of a problem since t^ey
have been and still are quickly absorbed.
4. Those who are moving because of the lack of or the small amount of relief
which is given at the place of legal settlement constitute another group. We in
Ohio understand the limited I'esources which some neighboring States have at
their conmiand : however, we are also conscious of the fact that W. P. A. wage
scales are lower in these States and that in some places relief is not given at all.
There is every inducement for persons without income in such communities to
start moving, many times because relatives in Ohio have written about — and
sometimes exaggerated — their situation, which by comparison, even though
meag^^r. is better than conditions at their place of residence wJien relief is not
granted. The result is an influx of persons from other States who expect to be
assigned to W. P. A., and in some cases have been accepted, or who are placed on
temporary relief until settlement is verified and return authorized. The chief
source of this migration is from the South.
5. Those young people 18 to 21 years of age whose parents are citizens of other
countries and who, following the last World War, returned to their homes in
Europe. The parents have been sending these childhen to this country to escape
war conscription. The problem of absorbing these intercounty migrants is equally
ditticult with those from other States, due to lack of job opportunities and diffi-
culty in arranging living conditions.
6. Those who are brought to an industrial center to break strikes : These people
are usually stranded after their assignment is finished, and many times are from
other States.
7. Those who are ''wanderers of the road" — the hobo : This group includes not
only single persons but families who are habitual travelers. They constitute a
small percentage of the total. They are present now, as they always have been,
only now they are more conspicuous. Little can be done for this group, since they
are not actually seeking employment, even temporary employment.
Problems Cheated by Interstate Migeation of Destitute Citizens
The above groupings indicate the type of interstate migrants which come to the
attention of local relief agencies and the State welfare department in Ohio. The
problems which are created in most communities because of these groups of inter-
state migrants can be classified under the following headings:
1. Medical problems, since in no community is there an oversupply of hospital
beds or funds to care for charity cases. An influx of nonresidents almost imme-
diately causes overcrowding. Communities have been unable to collect hospital
bills from the place of legal residence. Many of these cases are tuberculosis or
fracture cases. Venereal ca.ses are discovered regularly by the transient agencies
in the cities where physical examinations by licensed doctors are routine for all
transients given lodging. Once medical ti'eatment is started, the medical pro-
fession is loathe to cooperate with local relief agencies in the return of non-
residents to their place of legal residence if medical facilities for adequate
follow-up are not available at the place of settlement. This is particularly true
where tuberculosis cases have been treated in pneumothoracic clinics. The retiu'u
of these individuals to the community in which they live, if treatment is not
available, may be fatal. Instances come to the attention of the welfare depart-
ment regularly from various communities where interstate m'grants become
emergency medical cases and it is physically impossible to move them, thus caus-
ing an extended period of expense for local health agencies when medical
resources have already been drawn on to excess by needs of local indigents.
2. The effect on children of interstate migrants cannot be overemphasized.
Children who have no opportunity to live in normal homes grow up without
having ideas of what normal home life is like. Frequent moving causes lack of
continuity in their education, malnutrition, and an accumulation of abnormal
influences which result in making these children less competent citizens of the
future.
3. Poor housing is without a question one of the worst results of interstate
migration. Persons without resources are forced to crowd into the worst districts
in cities. This is particularly true of the large number of southern Negroes who
]^]^]^Q INTERSTATE MIGRATION
migrate into tliis State. In many cities in Oliio we liave been faced witli limited
liousing facilities for a considerable period. Tlie influx of nonresident people
only accentuates the problem, making for worse physical and moral conditions.
Disease is also increased thereby.
4. The migration of feeble-minded, epileptic persons has created very definite
problems. With institutions already crowded to capacity and many on the wait-
ing list, comnumities find it extremely difficult to secure authorization to return
such persons to their place of legal residence. In one instance over an 8-year
period in a city in Ohio a mentally incompetent person who had been in a mental
institution in another State was arrested for prostitution and all manner of petty
crimes over this period. Attempts were made by various agencies over this same
period to return this person to the State of legal settlement without results.
Although these problems are not as great as some of the other gi'oups, yet they
constitute a definite situation which creates a time-consuming and expensive prob-
lem in each such instance and in many instances is the straw which breaks the
camel's back.
5. We have attempted in Ohio to determine whether or not interstate migrants
were the cause of increased crime wave. Many communities house migrants
in the .iails as a matter of "local protection." A study of 19,075 cases brought into
a police court in Cincinnati showed only 763 were transients and of this number
702 were broiight into court on very minor charges. This is the only tangible
figure we have to throw any definite light on this phase of the problem, but we
feel that this is a fair sample for the State and that there is very little relation-
ship between migration and crime.
Factors in Planning Stabiliz.vtion and Rehabilitation
The return of persons to their place of legal settlement has b?come increasingly
difficult for the past several years. Ohio has cooperated with other State welfare
departments. Much has been accomplished through this cooperation and many
families have been returned to communities where they can become a part of the
community again. However, lack of resources, changes of personnel, and policies
in State departments and other factors make it difficult to keep continuity in the
agreements reached. Problems which have been brought to light in connection
with this type of activity indicate why it is becoming more and more difficult to do
constructive planning with interstate migrants in order to stabilize them. These
problems classify themselves into several groups :
1. Lack of uniform-settlement laws throughout the United States is the major
problem. Many laws with "intent" sections could have constructive significance,
however, as they are interpreted and used they seem clearly designed to quickly
deprive persons of their legal residence once they leave the State. Others are so
restrictive that once a person has been outside of the State for a period of time
they find themselves disqualified even for relief until they have been able to
maintain themselves independently within their home State for 2- to 3-year periods.
It is obvious that persons destitute in oni^ State wher(> they are nonresidents would
have no means of maintaining themselves in thi'ir State of legal settlement. In an
attempt to meet this probleuL legislators in some instances have hurriedly passed
what has turned out to bo distinctly discriminatory legislation and laws which in
practice are retaliatory in nature. Such laws have tended to increase the move-
ment of persons and to increase the problem from all angles rather than to make
it possible for them to become stabilized once they begin to move from place to
place.
2. There is an increasing number of persons in the destitute interstate migrant
group who have become what we term "United States residents." These are the
l>eop]e who have moved from State to S'^ate in an attempt to find opportunities
for support. They have failed to subsist on their own earnings long enough at
any one point to gain settlement. They have also been, away from the State in
which they last were legal residents so that under the laws of that State they are
roiisidered to have lost settlement. These are the persons referred to earlier in
this report as persons with a country but without a State. For instance, present
poor relief legislation in Ohio provides that anyone who has been out of the
State 4 years is ineligible to relief if he returns and becomes destitute before
he has again maintained himself for a continuous 12-month period without assist-
ance from an agency kee])ing records. In Illinois moving into another subdivision
causes loss of settlement. Intent to move elsewhere causes loss of settlement
in Missouri and West Virginia.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION ]^]^1]
Many local ofl3cials try as best they can to cooperate in helping these persons
plan to live where they can have the best opportunity for stabilization; however,
because of lo:-al coninniiiity pressures to take care <if their own citizens most
communities and local officials in Ohio encourage these people to move on rather
than to assist them in stabilization. Our larger cities, however, where they have
developed a finer sense of social consciousness, go to great lengths to assist these
folks in every possible way. Most of the sailors referred to in an earlier page
of this report also belong in this group.
3. Many people, after they learn of the advantages in other sections of the
country, even though they may be returned legally, refuse to go to their point of
legal residence. It is also true that some conununities feel it is inhuman to
forcibly return people because of lack of necessary iricdical care or other oppor-
tunities at their point of legal settlement. There are some who feel that to insist
upon return is also a violation of a person's civil liberties.
Recommendations
The Ohio State Transient <'ommittee and the State Department of Public Wel-
fare join in making the following recommendations to the Tolan committee on
points where we feel action would be most practical and effective :
I. Since this is a national problem and since there is no trend toward uni-
formity in State legislation regarding settlenient and interstate migration, we
feel that national planning and legislation is needed to assist in bringing into
uniformity the efforts of the various States in regard to interstate migration.
We feel that Federal planning and legislation should include the following points:
1. A standard of relief not less than the minimum relief needs for people in
that region. We appreciate the fact that there would be wide variation even
in Ohio between the southern hill coiuities and the large industrial cities as far
as minimum relief standards would be concerned.
2. A reasonable standard of medical care, and funds to provide such, which
would provide for those migrants in need of medical assistance or treatment.
This should be cocu'dinated with the United States Public Health Service in such
a way that venereal disease and control could be linked up with this program.
3. Employable migrants should be required to be continuously registered with
the official State or United States employment service.
4. A satisfactory arrangement whereby persons without legal settlement at the
point where they become dependent can be assisted in locating at the point where
they have the best possibilities of becoming stabilized and self-supporting. This
part of the plan should carry provisions requiring States to have standard settle-
ment requirements, also to be able to enter into reciprocal agreements with other
States so that there can be mutual planning between the two States involved
and the nonresident migrant, in order that the migrant may be assisted in locat-
ing where he can best adjust in the long run. In case of differences of opinion
between States, there should be the right of appeal to a Federal agency.
At this point we wish to say that the Ohio Transient Committee feels that
H. R, 2975 and 11. R. 2.)74 introduced in the Seventy-sixth Congress, first session,
by Representative Jerry "S'oorhis of California, would cover the above points quite
adequately with minor variations as necessary to fit conditions as they may
change by the time the next Congress is in session.
II. If States are to be granted Federal aid, it should be a requirement that
State laws be revised so that there would be standard settlement requirements
not only for general relief but for the various types of categorical assistance such
as aid to dependent children, aid to the blind, and aid for the aged.
These general requirements should be :
1. That a person, once having gained legal settlement in one State, shall not lose
it until he has gained settlement in another State. The State where .such settle-
ment is held would be obliged to assist in neces.sary housing plans and financial
aid when it was agreed between two States that the best plan was to return the
per.son to his point of legal settlement.
2. States should not require more than 1 year continuous residence \^'ithin the
State to establish legal settlement.
3. Acceptance of assistance from funds provided through Fedoral grants-in-aid
should not be permitted to disqualify a migrant from acquiring a legal settlement.
4. States should not be required to return persoiis requiring institutional care
because of mental disea.se or other illness such as tuberculosis to their place of
260370 — 40 — pt. 3 20
2]^J2 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
legal settlement. The expense of such care should either be taken entirely from
Federal funds or should be chargeable to the State of legal settlement.
III. National planning should be carried out so that the sectional problem, such
as the eventual depletion of coal deposits through mining operations, sections of
the country where present agricultural conditions indicate no immediate future
possibilities for absorbing the labor supply, and other predictable or precipitated
conditions which affect a large group of people should be managed in such a way
that the persons themselves are not required to blindly seek opportunities else-
where through unplanned migration. This will be obviously necessary until the
new frontiers can be developed. The fact that we realize that factories have been
creating a surplus on the labor market due to improved production methods, and
further that- even though the trend has been from the cities to the less centralized
areas, yet we know that there is no appreciable need for the surplus labor market
in the country any more than there is in the city. We feel it is obvious that some
planning will have to take place which will take these various groups and condi-
tions into consideration so that people do not wander aimlessly about searching
for opportunities which we know will not be found.
We are quite conscious of the fact that preparedness for national defense may
absorb many men while the boom period which results will last. This will, if it
reaches proportions where middle-aged displaced workers will be absorbed,
decrease the need for migration in search of work and of course decrease inter-
state migration. We strongly recommend that optimism in this direction should
not be allowed to delay action on the problem until there is some tangible result
from employment pick-up. Technological unemployment and other factors, such
as southern agricultural trends, the Dust Bowl, productivity of new lands due to
dams in the Northwest, etc., indicate the need for continued planning in regard to
interstate migration looking toward the next "depression" which may then be
delayed or at least partially avoided.
Some care for persons who become dependent should be provided in the home
community, if work opportunities are not available so as to remove the necessity
for moving elsewhere to secure relief. A modification of the Works Program or
Federal supplementing of local resources may be necessary to make this program
possible in all States and communities in the United States. We urge action
which will bring financial assistance to States for the temporary care neces.sary in
connection with planning and rehabilitation of interstate nonresidents until such
time at least when employment service machinery is available to assist people in
planned migration.
Perhaps new frontiers will be developed ; in the meantime we feel it is neces-
sary to face the fact that since our frontiers are practically gone, we need to make
an adjustment and provide the resources to meet the new situation which we have
only partially come to understand through the events of the last decade. The rec-
ommendations of the State transient committee, as stated above, we feel, would
assist in reaching that goal.
Rest assured of our willingness to cooperate with your committee and with
other States in reaching a practical sensible plan which will assist us in moving in
the right direction.
Re.spectfully submitted by
The Ohio State Transient Committee : H. W. Morgenthaler, chairman,
administi'ative assistant, legal settlement. State welfare depart-
ment ; Belle Greve, vice chairman, director, Cuyahoga County Re-
lief Administration; Mr. Mason Benner, director, Montgomery
County Relief Administration, Dayton ; Miss Cora M. Floyd, gen-
eral secretary, social service union. Steubenville : Mrs. Geraldine
Gifford, secretary, American Red Cross, Lorain : Mr. .1. A. Green,
executive secretary, Negro Y. M. C. A., Dayton ; Mrs. Frances W.
Hawes. Travelers Aid Society. Cleveland ; Brigadier Samson
Hodges, the Salvation Army, Columbus ; Mr. Gordon Jeffrey,
director, public welfare department, Toledo ; Mr. W. L. Mulhearn,
director. Summit County Relief Administration, Akron ; Miss Grace
O'Domiel), transient committee. Canton ; Mr. D. E. Proctor, chair-
man, transient comittee, Columbus ; Mr. J. H. Stein, superviser,
shelter-care division. Department of Public Relief. Cincinnati ;
Mrs. Jean C. Williams, director, city relief administration,
Portsmouth.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1113
Appendix
OUTLINE
Case stories and statistical tables illustrating pi-oblems in regard to destitute
interstate migrants :
1. Syphilis clinic case from Georgia.
2. Syphilis case illustrating combined effect of Arkansas law and United States
Public Health Service emphasis on treatment.
3. Syphilitic nonresident from Alabama.
4. Tuberculosis case from Kentucky.
5. Annual Report — 1939 — Cincinnati shelter care division on nonresident cases
receiving clinical medical care and break-down by type of treatment needed.
6. Cleveland case illustrating problems created by loss of settlement.
7. Cincinnati case illustrating interstate Kentucky problem of feeble-mindt d per-
son who needs institutionalization.
8. Feeble-minded "United States resident" type now in Cleveland.
0. Example of way people with low-grade mentality are shunted from place to
place when they become nonresidents (Cincinnati).
10. Case illustrating difficulty in securing verification of settlement and neglect of
children on the road.
11. Cincinnati case illustrating "United States resident" type.
12. Cincinnati reports facts on nonresident minor with tuberculosis (Kentucky).
13. Ca.se illustrating irresponsibility of some local officials (Indiana).
14. Case illustrating why better standardized controls are needed for handling
cases of nonresident migrants.
15. Letter illustrating how loss of settlement presents possibility of planning with
a family to assist them in locating at most logical place (New York).
16. Total for month-transients and local homeless, key Ohio points — October 1£3S.
17. Total for month-transients and local homeless, key Ohio points — November
1938.
18. Total for month-transients and local homeless, key Ohio points — December
1938.
19. Head count-transients and local homeless, key Ohio points — July 29, 1938.
20. Head count-transients and local homeless, key Ohio points — July 28, 1939.
21. Head count-transients and local homeless, key Ohio point.s — October 31. 1939.
22. Head count-transients and local homeless, key Ohio points — May 20, 1940.
23. Seasonal and weekly report on applications accepted and rejected by Cin-
cinnati agency for 1939-40.
24. Cuyahoga County (Cleveland) Relief Bureau. Number of transients receiv-
ing lodging in special dormitory for boys and young men during first month
of each quarter by each year age 7 to 25, July 1939 to April 1940.
25. Cuyahoga County (Cleveland) Relief Bureau. ]Major service by months
nonresident case load, white-colored, families — single, July 1939 through
June 1940.
26. Cuyahoga ('ounty (Cleveland) Relief Bureau. Nonresident case load, by
months, July 1939 through a. June 1940; &. number of sailors receiving
care as nonresidents, by months, April 1939 through June 1940.
SYPHILIS CIJNIC CASE FROM GEORGIA
Mrs. A. is under treatment in Cleveland Syphilis Clinic for syphilis early un-
clas.'iified with pregnancy. She received irregular treatment from August until
October 1939, prior to the delivery of her child at city hospital on October 15,
1939. Following the delivery of the child, many follow-up efforts were unsuc-
cessful in having either Mrs. A. or the child return to clinic for examination and
further treatment. The case was, therefore, referred to the Cleveland division
of health, which was effective in having Mrs. A. return to the clinic on February
6, 1940. with the assistance of a sanitary officer. Under pressure, also Mrs. A.
took the child Betty Jean to our pediatric.s clinic for examination. Physical
examination and .serology were negative for evidence of congenital syphilis in
the child.
Clarence, whom Mrs. A. named as the father of her child and potential source
of the .syphilitic infection, was examined on three occasions at the division of
health and was found not to have syphilis.
;[][14 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mrs. A. is 20 years old, a legal minor, and therefore has legal residence in
Atlanta, Ga., where her parents are now living. She refuses to return to Atlanta,
Ga., and neither the Travelers Aid Soeiety, the connty relief hnreau, nor the
division of health have any anthcnlty to ohlige her to return to Atlanta. Mrs. A.
has an I. Q. of 61, l)ut this is not low enough to require institutionalization in
a feeble-minded institution. Therefore, the probate court cannot assist us to
have Mrs. A. return to Georgia.
No social agency in this community will give financial or other assistance to
Mrs. A., and the Cleveland Syphilis Clinic is giving free medical care. Mrs. A.
has little inclination or al)ility or opportunity to work at the present time. She
i> living with her sister at the given address. Her sister is being supported by
aid to dependent children in this community and she is not permitted to assist
Mrs. A. out of the pension which she receives from this agency. Aid to dependent
children has found Mrs. A. in the home of her sister before and has required her
to move. When they discover that she has returned to live with her sister, ]\Irs.
A. will be asked to live elsev.'here again. ]\Irs. A.'s only source of support at
the present time is irregular income from Clarence, who makes such voluntary
contributions to the support of Mrs. A. and her child as he sees fit.
When Mrs. A. first came to Cleveland she was assisted temporarily by the
Travelers Aid Society while they made a sf)cial investigation. They offered
their services, the services of an attorney, and of the juvenile court in an effort
to have paternity .established and Clarence made legally responsible for the
support of Mrs. A.'s child. Mrs. A. was unwilling to go to court, and preferred
to depend on such voluntary contributions as Clarence is willing to give her.
It is doubtful that Travelers Aid Society would again offer this assistance since
Mrs. A. refused it the first time, since she has stayed in this community against
advice, and since she has refused paid transportation to Georgia.
We are therefore faced with the problem of providing free medical care for
Mrs. A. for a minimum of 40 treatments (she has had 27 treatments to date)
according to the United States Public Health Service stipulations for infectious
cases. Mrs. A. has been most irregular in her clinic attendance, even after
the discussion at the division of health when she was instructed to take treat-
ment without fail. We have been unable to secure subsistent relief (food,
clothing, and shelter) for Mrs. A and the baby or regular carfare for her weekly
visits from any source in this community. It is therefore impossible for us to
make an adequate social plan for this patient to enable her to take weekly
treatments even if she had the wish to do so.
When Mrs. A. will have res'ded in this community for 1 year after she is 21
years of age, she will have lost her residence in Atlanta, Ga., and will have
become a permanent charge on this community. At the present time there is
no authority in this community to oblige Mrs. A. to return to Atlanta, Ga.,
while she still has legal residence there.
CLEVELAND SYPHILIS CASE ILLUSTKATING COMBINED EFFECT OF ARKANSAS LAW AND
UNITED STATES PtTiiLIC HEALTH SERVICE EMPHASIS ON TREATMENT
General B. was quarantined in a Cleveland hospital on May 24, 1940, for
treatment of syphilis pi'imary of the tonsils. He was discharged from the
hdspital on June 4, 1940. to return to the dermatology clinic for semi weekly
ireatments until he has had 3' I treatments and weekly treatments thereafter,
according to the doctor's reconunendations. Mrs. B. has been examined in the
dermatology clinic as the contact of an early infectious case of syphilis. It is
as yet undetermined whether she is developing an early acquired syphilis from
her" husband or has old latent syphilis. In any case, she will require treatment
in the dermatologv clinic over an extended period of time (70 to 80 treatments).
Mr and Mrs. b" are not legal residents of Cuyahoga County. They first came
to Cleveland in D 'cember 1038, but Mr. B. has not had residence in Cleveland
for 12 consecutive months at any time. The family is very vague about their
source of income since being in Cleveland. Mr. B. states that he has had odd
jobs averaging .$2 or .$3 a week and Mrs. B. has worked as a janitress irregularly
"earning $.5 a week. Neither Mr. nor Mrs. B. has given their past places of
employment or specific statements regarding their earnings.
Mr." B. initiated an application at the county relief bureau for financial as-
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1115
sistance but is at the present time reluctant to complete it. This family in all
probability are legal residents of the State of Arkansas. In order to effect
their return to Arkansas, the family nuist state their willingness to return.
The State of Arkansas will not authorize the return of any legal resident unless
a statement of the family's willingness to return has been secured. The county
relief bureau cannot, therefore, give even temi)orary relief while making an
investigation, and this family cannot, therefore, secure financial assistance for
food, clothing, and shelter in the city of Cleveland from the county relief bureau
or any other agency.
Mr. and Mrs. B. live at the given address with seven of Mrs. B.'s relatives.
The relatives have also in the past made application to county relief bureau
but have stated their unwillingness to be returned to Arkansas. There is,
therefore, no authority in the community at the present time to have any of
these persons returned to their place of legal residence nor can the county
relief bureau furnish temporary financial assistance to any of them under their
agency restrictions.
Mr. and Mrs. B. state that they will be able to manage, since they are both
hopeful of securing employment, but neither has any definite employment at
the present time. Mr. B. has infectious .syphilis and is required to have a mini-
mum of 40 treatments under the public health regulations of this community and
of the United States Public Health Service. Mrs. B. may also have infectious
.sypliilis or at least will be in need of long-time continuous medical care. We
are unable to secure subsistent relief for this family in this comnmnity from
any agency. The family are, therefore, in the position of having to maintain
them.selves and regular clinic attendance, which experience has shown us will
probably be very ditficult. In addition, it is unlikely that the family earnings
will be sufficient to cover the cost of food, clothing, and shelter and the additional
required medical care.
S^T>HILITIC NONRESIDENT FROM ALABAMA
Mrs. J. M. has been xinder treatment in Cleveland Syphilis Clinic for syphilis
latent with pregnancy. Child delivered December 12, 1938, and the baby boy,
delivered IMarch 5. 1940, have both been examined and show no evidence of pre-
natal syphilis. Mrs. M. will have completed treatment after 8 more weeks and
will be placed on periodical examination imless she again becomes pregnant.
This family has required much follow-up during the last 2 years since, with
each pregnancy, Mrs. M. has l)ecome an urgent case and is subject to the division
of health regulations regarding all infectious cases.
This family has legal residence in Tuskegee, Ala. The family has refused to
return to Alabama, stating that Mr. M. cannot secure work there. The county
relief bureau is in the position of having to deny relief to this family, since they
could be provided for in their own community if they would return there. Mr.
M. has been employed intermittently as a laborer on W. P. A., earning from $52
to $56 a month. This income is inadequate, but the county relief bureau could
not supplement because of the settlement status. This position was held in spite
of the urgency of medical care for Mrs. M. during her pregnancy. Because of
the inadequate income Mrs. I\I. has never been able to secure carfare to attend
clinic regularly as was advised.
TUBERCULOSIS CASE FROM KENTUCKY
This family came to northern Kentucky, sold their house truck for junk at
the Ohio border, and proceeded to Cincinnati in search of hospital care for the
ailing tuberculosis wife. Ten days later, having exhausted their means and the
wife's condition more acute, the woman was taken to the Cincinnati General
Hospital and the man and child applied to transient shelter for relief. Five
months later the child was diagno.sed as tubercular with positive sputum. No
relatives could be found who were the least bit interested in the family, neither
could legal residence be verified in any of the number of places that the family
had lived. For a number of years the McC's had kept on the road in an effort
to market the willow furniture that Mr. McC made. Materials for the making
of this furniture were gathered along the various waterways.
1116
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
ANNUAL REPORT, 19 09, CINCINNATI SHELTER CARE DIVISION ON NONRESIDENT CASES
RECEIVING CLINICAL MEDICAL CARE AND BREAK-DOWN BY TYPE OF TREATMENT
NEEDED
City of Cincinnati
The clinic serviced :
Local Clients 26, 137
Transient clients 16, 023
Total 42,160
Mt. Airy serviced 6,598
Medical ministrations provided by the nurses in the infirmary outside of
clinic hours 790
Total 7,388
49, 548
A further break-down shows —
Inspections in clinic among local clients 19,474
Inspections in clinic among transients 11,436
Inspections at Mt. Airy center 5, 305
Total 36,215
Medical and surgical care provided 13, 333
Total 49,548
Broken down as follows :
Medical treatments in clinic 8, 299
Medical treatments in infirmary (not in-patients) 557
Medical treatments in Mt. Airy 1, 234
Surgical treatments in clinic 2, 951
Surgical treatments in infirmary (not in-patients) 233
Surgical treatments in Mt. Airy 59
13,333
Patients receiving treatment in the infirmary for a total of 5,396 days of
treatment : 411
Patients, 14 of whom were nonresidents, sent to the General Hospital 49
Clients, who had sustained minor accidents in the building, treated by the
staff doctors on duty 20
Cases of tuberculosis observed and disposed of as previously recorded 57
A total of 2,631 cases of infectious diseases observed, treated, and isolated.
broken down as follows :
Com-
bined
Locals
Tran-
sients
Gonorrhea . . . _.
395
66
9
6
3
2
199
75
501
Syphilis
45
Penile lesions. _. . . .. .. _ .-
18
Lvmphc granuloma inguinale .__ _ . _ -- ._.
20
Venereal warts..
10
Chancroid. . . ..
T
Pediculosis
926
Scabies . . . . .
278-
Scarlet fever
2
69
Miscellaneous . .....
Total
71
755
1,805
Locals
TransientS-
Combined-
755
1,805
71
Total 2,631
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1117
CLEVELAND CASE IIXUSTRATING PROBLEMS CREATED BY LOSS OF SETTLEMENT
111 many instances we find coiumunitios unwilling to authorize the return of
families, although evidently they have the right to legal settlement there. The
following situation is illustrative of this.
Carl O., 34, wife, and three children became ensnared by settlement laws several
years ago and has not succeedeil yet in extricating himself. Shortly after he was
married, 10 years ago, he moved, as he had been accustomed to doing when he
was single, to any city which seemed to offer employment possibilities. He had
difficulty in finding the job he was seeking and he moved from place to place —
to Kansas City, St. Louis, Indianapolis, Chicago, and finally to Cleveland. How-
ever, he was never in one place long enough to establish settlement. Frequently
he had to apply for I'elief when his jobs did not last very long. His nonresident
status did not make for comfortable relief contracts — he had no legal settlement.
Several places made futile attempts to verify settlement and send him back, and
some stopped relief to force him to move on.
Mr. O. has no specific training vocationally but has generally done clerical
work. He has had some unfortunate work experiences and he feels failures
keenly. His plight has frequently been desperate, both in Cleveland and else-
where. He has been given some security here but not enough, apparently, to keep
him from a suicide attempt last winter. At other times the impulse to move on,
to find the kind of life he feels is necessary, has been irresistible. This family has
had considerable direct relief and medical aid at the expense of this community.
He has no legal settlement.
CINCINNATI CASE ILLUSTRATING INTERSTATE (KENTUCKY) PROBLEM OF FEEBLE-MINDED
PEKSONS WHO NEED INSTITUTIONALIZATION
Miss C, aged 35, was probated to the Kentucky Institution for the Feeble-minded
in 1932 by the court of F. County. Because of overcrowded conditions in this
institution she never entered. She has drifted in and out of Cincinnati since 1932
and has invariably been arrested on a charge of prostitution after a short time
in this city. Since 1932 there have been 42 convictions by the court in Hamilton
County on this charge. The last two convictions each resulted in a year's sentence
to the workhouse. She has been diagnosed as mentally deficient with a mental
age of 7 years and 8 months. There is also a diagnosis of central nervous system
lues, latent but progressive. Miss C's most recent sojourn in the workhouse is
drawing to a close. Correspondence has been carried on with F. County by the
transient-.service bureau in an effort to return Miss C so that institutionalization
can be provided. At this point F. County is denying responsibility for Miss C.
This woman is clearly an institutional case. Because she has never gained
settlement in Ohio for the purposes of relief, she cannot be placed in an institution
here. Although she served a year's sentence in the workhouse on two occasions,
she could not obtain settlement under Ohio law.
FEEBLE-5IINDED '"UNITED STATES RESIDENT" TYPE NOW IN CLEVELAND
O., Lillie. white, separated, 28 years old. She is feeble-minded, epileptic, and
alcoholic. Lillie originates from Rutherforton. N. C. Investigation reveals that
her family was unable to cope with the problem which she presented.
At a very early age Lillie began wandering about the country. She married in
South Carolina in 1931. Husband's settlement not known because he deserted soon
after the marriage. It appears that she continued her wandering. Since 1937
she has been known to welfare agencies in Abington, Va. ; Detroit, Mich. ; Atlanta,
Ga. ; Louisville, Ky. ; Erie, Pa.; and Cleveland, Ohio. She was probated in
Detroit and Erie and placed in a State institution. This action was taken be-
caui^e of the problem that Lillie presented to the community, although her non-
resident status was recognized in both communities. She escaped from both
institutions.
North Carolina refuses to consider Lillie their responsibility, although they
recognize that she has never been able to provide for herself. Inasmuch as Lillie
has never been adjudicated a feeble-minded or epileptic person in North Carolina
(presumably the only State that Lillie remained in for any length of time) our
State department as well as the State departments of Michigan and Pennsylvania
could not take action to force North Carolina to. recognize their responsibility,
and the community where Lillie became stranded was exjiected to pi'ovide care
for her indefinitely.
1118 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
EXAMPLE OF WAY PEOPI.H WITH LOW-GRADE MENTALITY ARE SHUNTED FROM PLACE TO
PLACE WHEN THEY BECOME NONRESIDENTS (CINCINNATI)
Both Mr. and Mrs. C. are persons of limited mentality who have been wander-
ing from place to place in an effort to find some relative whom they thought
would take them in. A police official in a small Kentucky town is said to have
given them train fare to Cincinnati to live with an uncle (whom Mrs. C. hadn't
seen in 15 years). Upon arrival here relatives refused to see the family. Two
weeks prior to coming to Cincinnati, they had been in Indiana with a cousin.
The cousin couldn't keep them, so they started wandering again. No sooner than
they had left the cousin's home, they stopped for the night on the front porch of
a canning factory where the woman gave birth to a child. The township officials
of that community sent the family by truck to another relative, approximately a
hundi-ed miles away in Kentucky.
Their first baby is dead. Burial was made by the mother and father "under a
rock somewhere." They couldn't remember the name of the place.
The baby was taken ill, but the mother refused to allow her to be hospitalized.
When last seen they had their knapsacks and were trudging down the road pre-
sumably to try to find another relative in Indiana to whom they had referred
on several occasions.
The facts in this case are veriflod by correspondence with the State Department
of Indiana and the local trustees. Correspondence with R., Kentucky, has re-
sulted in the statement by the judge of that county that the C.'s have no legal
residence there because they have been away from that community 3 years.
This family, of two adults and eight children, is not eligible for assistance in
this or any other community, apparently.
CASE ILLUSTRATING DIFFICULTY IN SECURING VERIFICATION OF SETTLEMENT AND
NEGIECT OF CHILDREN ON THE ROAD (KENTUCKY)
Mrs. McK applied for public assistance in Cincinnati as a resident, giving false
information. Her nonresidenee was soon learned and the case was referred to
Transient Service Bureau. Subsequent correspondence brought out the follow-
ing information : Mrs. McK had deserted her husband in C, Ky. She came to
Cincinnati with another man and brought her four children with her. The man
soon deserted and then she applied for relief. The county judge in C, Ky., would
not answer letters. A reply was finally obtained from the Work I*rojects Ad-
ministration certifying authority to the effect that the judge had been contacted
and that he refused to authorize Mrs. McK's and the children's retvu'ii because
"she forfeited her right to legal settlement when she deserted her husband." Mrs.
McK is not capal)le of rearing her children. However, no phuis can be made here
for these children because of their nonresidenee.
There are numerous similar instances in which individuals nmst be returned
to their place of settlement even though we know they will not receive care be-
cause of the inadequac.v of relief fmids and medical resources. This situation
holds true for other counties in Ohio as well as in other States. We quote below
excerpts from two letters, one received from W County, Ohio, and the other from
B County, Ohio. The first letter is an authorization to return a family to W
County. "We again authorize the return of the R family, but, as stated in our
previous authorization, they must make their own housing arrangements." The
second letter, received from B County regarding a similar case, reads as follows:
"You are authorized to return this family to B County, but we are unable to make
any provision for shelter. If they are returned and apply for relief here, we will
consider them for such small relief as we have available."
CINCINNATI CASE ILLUSTRATING "UNITED STATES RESIDENT" TYPE
Mr. D was born in Cincinnati. He spent about 3 years in Indiana from 19S3
until 1936. After his return to Cincinnati he received assistance from a private
agency within the first year. The family has needed assistance periodically since
that time. Because of the desperateness of their situation here and the fact that
they had no place to which to retiu'u in Indiana, assistance has been given by a
private agency. This family is ineligible for public assistance here and ttte State
of Indiana claims that they have no residence there.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1119
CINCINNATI KEPORTS FACTS ON NONRESIDENT MINOR WITH TUBERCUT.OSIS (KENTUCKY)
This boy is a minor whose father lives in P County, Ky. When he applied for
assistance at the Transient Service Bureau he was suffering from far advanced
tuberculosis. lie said that he liad recently been discharged from a tuberculosis
hospital in Kentucky. Numerous letters and wires to the P county judge have
remained unanswered. The boy was not eligible for hospital care in this com-
munity. A wire was finally sent to the P county judge advising him that the
boy was being returned unless some word was received. Within a few days,
transportation \\as provided and the boy returned to P county.
CASE ILLUSTRATING IRRESPONSIBILITY OF SOME LOCAL OFFICIALS (INDIANA)
Mrs. M who was a resident of F, Ind., was sent to Cincinnati by relief authori-
ties of F in May 1939. as proved by the authorities of F.
We were told that if Mrs. M returned to F charges would be tiled against her,
although the administrator of the State Welfare D:^partment of Indiana author-
ized us to return her on June 2, 1939. In his letter he states: '"The authorized
return is made on a legal basis, although from a social viewpoint adjustment for
Mrs. M out of Indiana would seem to be advisable because of the attitude of the
local trustees."
CASE ILLUSTRATING WHY' BETiER STANDARDIZED CONTROLS ARE NEEDED FOR HANDLING
CASES OF NONRESIDENT MIGRANTS
The T's ajjplied to the Transient Service Bureau in Cincinnati for assistance.
Efforts to establish their place of legal settlement brought out the fact that they
originally came from R, Ky.. going from there to I, Ind. Efforts on the yiart
of til." local trustees in I. Ind., to return the T's to Kentucky were fruitless.
Finally a trial by jury was held and it was decided that the family was undesir-
able and would have to leave. The trustees provided transportation for the T's
to Cincinnati, where Mr. T thought he might get a job.
LETTER ILLUSTRATING HOW LOSS OF SETTLEMENT PRESENTS POSSIBILITY OF PLANNING
WITH A FAMILY' TO ASSIST THEM IN LOCATING AT MOST LOGICAL PLACE (NEW
YORK )
Re: John D. Children, Marcia Ann (11 months) Jackie (3 years). Our
#990829.
S. W. J.,
Jui^enUe Judge, Juvenile Court,
County of T., W. , Ohio.
Dear Judge J. : This is in reply to your letter of May 18, 1940, regarding the
above family. As a result of our contacts in this case, we find that Mr. D.
has lost his settlement in New York by being out of this State for more than
1 year.
We interviewed his mother, Mrs. Frances D., residing at 127-18 Ninty-fiflh
Avenue, R. H. Oueens. She informed us that he left New York in January 1939
to take up resience in L, N. J. He also resided in the city of E and the town
of E, N. H. She maintained that she had not heard from him since August 1939,
at which time he resided in E. N. J.
We questioned I\Irs. D as to her ability to assist her son. She stated thai
she was unable to offer her son a home because her resources are limited. Her
husband died sevei'al years ago. Two sons, aged 26 and IS, are the wage earners.
They are employed for the General Electric Co. but IMrs. I) maintains their
income is small. The eldest son contemplates marriage in the very near future
so that his contributions toward the home are small. The household also in-
cludes a daughter of lo years, who attends school.
We also spoke to the eldest son but he sulistantiated his motiier's stat(>ments
and he stated that he was luiable to assist his brother. There appears to be
no other relatives in a position to assist.
In.asmuch as your applicant's relatives in New York cannot offer him a home
and he has lost settlement in New York by being out of the State for more
than 1 year, we cannot authorize his return.
If we can be of further assistance to you, we shall be glad to cooperate.
Very truly yours,
W. H., CommiHfiioner.
C. R., Case Supervisor.
1120
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
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INTERSTATE MIGRATION
1121
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to
Akron (13)
Cambridge, Salvation Army (3)
Chillicothe, Salvation Army (7)
Cincinnati, Transient Service Bureau (1)
Cleveland, Cuyahoga County Relief Bureau (2) -
Columbus, Volunteers of America, Salvation
Army, Jewish Welfare Federation (4)
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1122
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
(4)
Number of individuals in families reported
in item (3)
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2
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
1123
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1124
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
s
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reported in item (2)
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INTERSTATE MIGRATION
1125
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00 11 11
°- ■§ lo' d
— . 1 i o
id
1 ^
Akron, Summit County
Relief .\rea.
Cambridge, Salvation Army.
Canton, Travelers Aid So-
ciety.
Cincinn.iti, All Agencies
Clevelan, Cuyahoga Coun-..
gg .0.25
at, a'^
- • ? « rS? 5
g £; a; M -g
>>.S .J; t^ tf t:
*^ o;i: ci
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1126
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Shelter care division {Cincinnati), record and rcDorts department— Accepted
and rejected cases ^
State transient '
Nonresident transient ^
Local homeless
July
1935
253
5
11
2
Octo-
ber
1939
244
>.)
11
1
Jan-
uary
1940
170
22
11
11
April
1940
316
4
8
3
July
1939
1,799
35
110
Zi
Octo-
ber
1939
1,413
47
55
11
Jan-
uary
1940
April
1940
July
1939
Octo-
ber
1939
Jan-
uary
1940
April
1940
804
67
30
22
1,989
42
49
9
226
370
316
Seasonal report-
Single intake cases
178
Family intake cases_-.
Single rejected cases . _ .
148
212
171
131
Family rejected cases.
271
265
214
331
1,967
1.526
923
2,089
374
582
487
309
July
15-21,
1939
Oct.
14-21),
1939
Jan.
14-20,
1940
Apr.
14-20,
1940
Julv
15-21,
1939
Oct.
14-20,
1939
Jan.
14-20,
1940
Apr.
14-20,
1940
July
15-21,
1939
Oct.
14-20,
1939
Jan.
14-20,
1940
Apr.
14-20,
1940
Weekly report:
Single intake cases
65
2
5
34
5
1
1
38
10
3
5
70
1
406
3
33
3
301
8
17
1
184
16
12
5
455
10
10
54
71
57
38
Family intake cases- .
Single rejected cases. _
55
45
13
25
Family rejected cases .
72
41
56
72
445
327
217
475
109
116
70
63
. This is an intake report only, and does not include cases assigned that are carried from month to month.
' From other counties in Ohio.
3 Interstate migrants.
Cuvahoaa County Relief Bureau— Nnmier of transients receiving lodginf/ in
spS dormitory for hoys and young men during first month of each quarter,
hy age, July 1939 to April 1940
Age
9...-
10..-
11...
12...
13...
14-.
15...
16...
17.--
18...
19...
20..
21...
22.-
23-.
24--
25-.
Total.
July 1939
3
6
24
105
74
95
96
67
78
57
606
October
1939
508
January
1940
April
1940
83
68
63
580
Juveniles under 17 years, traveling alone, are sent to juvenile court,
with father, they are lodged in the shelter.
When
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
1127
Major service, nonresident case load, ivhite and colored, families and single,
Cuyahoga Cminty Relief Bureau, July 1939 to June 19^/0
Total
Year and month
C
ases
Persons represented
Total
White
Colored
Total
White
Colored
1939:
July --
695
714
721
646
589
534
517
514
513
494
475
489
307
319
328
329
291
266
236
232
257
220
221
235
3S8
395
393
317
298
268
281
282
256
274
254
254
2,071
2, 159
2,204
1,800
1,636
1,548
1,454
1,494
1,507
1,450
1,397
1,433
(')
(')
1940:
Famil
y cases
Single cases
Year and month
Cases
Persons represented
Total
401
423
427
371
331
300
301
302
296
289
279
284
White
Colored
Total
White
Colored
Total
White
Col-'
ored
1939:
July
171
177
186
181
154
146
137
136
135
126
127
137
230
246
241
190
177
154
164
166
161
163
152
147
1,777
1,868
1.910
1,525
1.378
1,314
1,238
1,282
1,290
1,245
1,201
1,228
0)
(')
294
291
294
275
258
234
216
212
217
205
196
205
136
142
142
148
137
120
99
96
122
94
94
98
158
149
152
127
121
114
1940:
117
116
95
111
102
107
1 Break-down not available.
Nonresident case load, Cuyahoga County Relief Bureau, January 1939 to July
19J,0
Year and month
Tota :
Major
service
Over-
night
service
Minor
service
1939;
July
1,105
1,129
801
1,195
1,018
788
960
912
1,063
1,404
1,428
1,382
695
714
721
646
589
534
517
514
513
494
475
489
313
298
24
471
377
198
328
315
476
835
900
837
97
117
56
October . . - --
78
52
56
1940:
115
83
March .
74
75
53
June . -- -
56
260370 — 40— pt. 3-
-21
|]^28 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Number of sailors receiving care as nonresidents, in Cuyahoga County
Month
January. -
February.
March
April
May
1939
163
193
1940
56
63
109
152
136
Month
June
July
August
September
49
152
101
45
This year seamen were required to malie application for jobs at steamship
home offices, several of which are located in Cleveland. The Neutrality Act sent
a lot of salt-water seamen to the lake region to look for work.
STATEMENT BY W. R. SULLINGER, FARM PLACEMENT SUPERVISOR
FOR THE OHIO STATE EMPLOYMENT SERVICE
WE OBSERVE THE NEED FOR REGXILATIONS TO CONTROL THE FLOW OF MIGRATORY FARM
LABOR
1. Ohio labor is gradually being replaced, particularly in the agricultural field,
by labor imported from Kentucky and Texas. This type of labor prevails in the
beet, celery, onion, and tomato fields.
2. Many relief cases are resulting from this condition.
3. Loss of residence to this type of labor in the community from which they
came causes them much trouble in being able to establish claims for relief when
in need. It definitely has been shown as there is much relief amongst this type
of labor in the off season.
4. Present conflicting regulations encourage migration of this type of labor as
local officials encourage them to move on, hoping to shift the problem to the next
point of contact.
5. This involves a Federal problem, as these people are United States citizens
not identified with any State or subdivision.
6. Control of migratory labor will be handled satisfactorily in the proportion
which employers increase their recruiting through the public employment system.
7. The need for migratory labor is superinduced by the low wage scale prevail-
ing in the sugar-beet industry.
8. It is our opinion that we could recruit all of this type labor needed within
Ohio if this wage scale were adjusted. Recruiters of this type of labor outside
of their own area should be responsible for the examination of citizenship and
eligibility for relief, and probably restore such workers to the original point of
recruitment.
TESTIMONY OF H. W. MORGENTHALER— Resumed
Mr. Parsons, I would like to ask a few questions for the benefit
of the committee.
URBAN MIGRATION IN CLEl^ELAND, CINCINNATI, AKRON
INIr. Morgenthaler. could you tell the committee something of the
extent of urban migration in the cities of Cleveland and Cincinnati
and Akron, giving something of the industrial background in each
case ?
Mr. ]\IoRGENTHALER. Yes. I would like to present these charts,
which show you the trend in these two cities over a period of 5 years.
You can see from these charts that the trend has been upward in each
i
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1129
of the cities. It also shows that most of these nonresident people
come into these cities in the spring or when the warm weather opens up.
We have had a gradual increase in nonresident migration into those
two cities. In going back to the period from 1920 to 1930 we had quite
an industrial boom. In the first place, Ohio is highly industrialized.
Our problem is one of industry as it relates to migration, we feel,
more than it is of the agricultural type, as some States have, although
Mr. Sullinger has some information on the agricultural problem, too.
Mr. Parsons. The rubber industiy, or the manufacturing of tires,
in Ohio caused a great desertion of labor from other States, because
they invited them to come in there ; that is one of the factors, is it not?
Mr, MoEGENTHALER. Quite true. Between 1920 and 1930 so many
men were needed they could hardly provide housing facilities. For
instance, Akron residents who lived there during that period said that
houses which now rent for $35 were up to $70. People who ran room-
ing houses would rent the same bed for three shifts in order to take
care of people. Beds were placed on porches in order to accommo-
date people. That was the boom period when the tire companies were
coming in.
According to census figures, the population of Akron for the last
10 years has decreased, and not only has the population decreased, but
the unemployment load has increased. We are told that the rubber
companies are now producing the same volume of goods as they
produced in 1929, but they are using many less men.
Mr. Parsons. As a member of the State welfare department,
through your State transient committee, what special types of destitute
interstate migrants have you found?
Mr. MoRGENTHALER. In the first place, I think the group that is
giving us the chief concern in the cities is the one composed of those
who have come in for medical care. We have quite a large number of
people coming into our cities primarily for medical care. It is inter-
esting that quite a number of these people tell the medical centers that
they have heard through the United States Public Health Service
broadcasts about treatment for venereal diseases, and they come to the
cities where they understand they can get adequate treatment.
Many of these people are from Kentucky and other parts of the
country where they lack medical resources at home. Of course, Cincin-
nati and Cleveland are highly developed centers, but they are loaded
down with their own people. They have found every person coming
in an increased load.
Mr. Parsons. Do you have a seasonal influx because of industrial or
agricultural employment ?
Mr. MoRGENTHALER. I cau spcak for industry, and Mr. Sullinger
can tell you the agricultural trends. We are, of course, in Ohio,
affected by the automobile industry. Practically all of the industries
in Toledo, for instance, are subsidiary to the automobile industry.
There is a seasonal demand for people. We do have an influx of
people who think they can get jobs but the result is we have many more
people than there are jobs for them to fill.
Local jobs can easily be taken care of by the local people, and still
have some local employable persons left over. I think we have a
1130 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
peculiar situation which will also be found in the other Great Lakes
States, and that is the matter of sailors who are stranded at the end of
the shipping season. Their boats tie up wherever they happen to be
when ice forms, and many are without resources. In tlie spring they
are required to report at the shipping company's main office. Most of
these offices seem to be in Cleveland.
If a man happens to tie up in Chicago or Duluth, he must report
in Cleveland in order to ship out the next year. That has created
somewhat of a problem in that particular group.
Mr. Parsons. Has that changed any in recent years as compared to
what it has been in years past ?
Mr. MoRGENTHALER. We liave had quite a bit of emphasis on this
jjroblem lately. The sailors themselves are quite insistent on better
accommodations than local people are given. They say they must
have cleaner places to stay, and that sort of thing. Thej' are quite
demanding. Mr. Sullinger can tell about the agricultural seasonal
shift.
Mr. Parsons. I would like to hear from you with reference to the agri-
cultural part of it.
]Mr. Sullinger. Ohio is very highly diversified in agriculture as
well as industry. Ohio produces sugar beets, onions, celery, peaches,
cherries, and other fruit crops, as well as the regular farm crops. The
cherry crop is perhaps the first crop of fruit to be harvested or picked
using migratory labor. Many hundreds of laborers of the migrant type
enter these fields.
Mr. Parsons Is that intrastate and interstate?
Mr. Sullinger. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. "Within the State and adjoining States ?
Mr. Sullinger. That is right.
Mr. Parsons. Is there a considerable influx from, say Kentucky and
Indiana?
Mr. Sullinger. From Kentucky and Texas is where the majority of
our migratory labor comes from. However, a few hundred are enter-
ing Ohio from Michigan to work in the beet fields.
Mr. Parsons. They started out in Texas?
Mr. Sullinger. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. And come up as the season comes up?
Mr. Sullinger. Yes; first they come to the cherry orchards or belt.
What we term the cherry belt is a district which starts at Port Clinton
and runs around the southwest corner of Lake Erie, through southern
Michigan, to the Michigan shore of Lake Michigan. This labor or
pickers follow this belt, picking cherries to the shores of Lake Miclii-
gan, and then they return to the starting point and when the peaches
are ready for harvesting, they go tln-ough this district again picking
peaches. They again return to the starting point to pick pickles. By
this time, the apple crop is usually ready to be harvested and the same
procedure is piu'sued as in the former mentioned crop. After the
apples and peaches are harvested, they then turn to the vineyards in
the Catawba Island district. This type of laborer has no doubt created
some problem in Ohio. A few days were spent by myself in the Scioto
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1131
marsh, and records show that there are over 600 Kentucky migrants
in this district. This is causing Hardin County some relief problem.
Mr. Parsons. Were you here this moi'ning before noon and did you
hear the Hart famil}' discussing their difficulties?
Mr. SuLLixGER. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. Do any conditions exist like that up there?
Mr. SuLLiNGER. To some extent ; yes. The sugar beet is fast replac-
ing the onion in this marshland. In discussing this with the man-
ager of the Scioto Land Company which operates about 3,000 to 4,000
acres, he informed me 70 percent of their crop was gradually getting
away from growing onions.
Mr. Parsons. That would present still a diiferent type of labor.
Mr. SuLLiNGER. That is right.
Mr. Parsons. Probably in 2 or 3 years you will have that problem.
Mr. SuLLiNGER. That is right. We must have stoop labor, as it is
termed, and I do not know as yet how we are going to handle it. The
Ohio State employment service has studied this type of laborer back
3 generations to see what is happening. It does not seem as though the
people in the North can do that type of work. It appears as though
the people from the southern regions and Mexico are more adapted
to this type of labor,
Mr. Parsons. They are mostly Mexicans ?
Mr. SuLLiNGER. Mostly Mexicans; yes. It does not seem to be diffi-
cult for them to perform this type of labor.
Mr. Parsons. What do you mean by stoop labor?
Mr. SuLLiNGER. Labor requiring bending down to perform. I in-
quired of one of these laborers in the marsh as to whether it hurt his
back to work in this stooping position. He informed me that it was
not the stooping down but the stooping up that hurt. Just over the
Michigan and Ohio line at Blissfield, Mich., is located a sugar plant
operated by the Great Lakes Sugar Co. In this district there is over
600 Mexicans employed, 400 in the State of Michigan, and 200 in the
State of Ohio.
Mr. Parsons. Do they go back to Texas in the wintertime?
Mr. Sltllinger. In discussing this phase with the managers they in-
formed me that this was the custom. But when you investigate the
relief problem in these communities it presents evidence that this is
not completely true. This presents a problem. I am acquainted with
these circumstances in one district in which they have had around 20
of these Mexicans on relief. This community has tired of giving them
direct relief, and is now requiring them to do some work to receive this
relief. The names of these recipients of relief can be furnished on
request. It is becoming more and more of a problem. Something has
to be done about ironing out difficulties which exist between the States
in respect to settlement laws. Illinois and Indiana, with their 3-year
settlement law. and Ohio, with its 1-year law, create a problem, par-
ticularly for Ohio.
Mr. Parsons. Yes.
Mr. SuLLiNGER. We are having that difficulty right now.
Mr. Parsons. The competition right now is on the upward climb
instead of being reduced.
1132
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
Mr. SrLLiNGER. Yes ; I do think we have enough hibor in Ohio to
take care of this situation. They are what is termed "beet weeding,"
"beet blocking," and "tomato picking." A lot of these Mexicans are now
invading the tomato field. One carload consisting of 40 Mexicans was
brought^into this district a few days ago. This company is now re-
questing work in the tomato fields for these migrants.
Mr. Parsons. Is that done on a contract basis, or do the employment
offices aid and assist, or do the owners of these large tracts of land have
a standing agreement with these fellows as to when to come in?
Mr. SuLLiNGER. It is usually the field men of these sugar companies
^ho have some contact in Texas who import these men. They go to
Texas and get a load. However, the Great Lakes Sugar Co. should be
oiven much credit, as they send a doctor to these Texas fields to give
This labor a health examination. This labor must have a clean bill of
health before they are sent up here.
Mr. Parsons, that is very fine.
Mr. SuLLiNGER. I was informed that they were going to see to it that
these men were returned from whence they came. I cannot visualize
any problem with that, except that they should be handled through a
public employment service where a complete check can be kept on the
coming and going of this labor. If 50 are brought in, 50 should be
returned at the close of the season. This will give a complete count
and check in the public employment service as to the location of these
workers at all times. . ■, <-
Mr. Parsons. Going back to Mr. Morgenthaler, on another angle ot
it, do the employers in industry frequently recruit an excessive number
of employees that they do not need ?
Mr. Morgenthaler. That has been true m the past. We have had,
for instance, in Canton at one time— this was during the 1920-30 period
again— a condition where the Timken Roller Bearing Co., to be spe-
cific, brought a trainload of Mexicans to Canton to work in the mills.
When the mills closed down, these men were thrown on the city to be
cared for. We have had the same thing happen in Cincinnati, although
the Cincinnati people themselves have been successful in holding that
down to a certain extent. • i i i •
The thing that is causing us more trouble now, I think, than that is
the fact that some adjoining States have fewer resources to our cities
and some find work. They write to relatives in other parts of the
country— in Kentucky, West Virginia, and in the South. Relatives
come in and crowded housing conditions result with people becoming
dependent very shortly after they are here, with all of the health and
other problems that come along with bad housing. When we try to
return these folks, we have great difficulty in, first of all, having their
residences established in another State, and then we find that the other
State says they are not giving relief, and that these folks should be
advised if they do come back they are not giving relief, which, of
course, creates a barrier which the people themselves are not willing
to face. . . , uiiir •
Mr. Curtis. Before you leave this Mexican labor situation, by Mexi-
can" you mean a resident of old Mexico? Or do you mean Mexicans
from Southwestern States?
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1133
Mr. MoRGENTHALER. Mexicaiis from Texas and the southwestern
part of the country.
Mr. Curtis. They are Americans?
Mr. MoRGENTHALER. They are living inside of the country ; yes.
MIGRANTS AND CRIME
Mr. Parsons. In your statement you mentioned that you had made
a study or attempted to see ^Yhether or not migrants were the cause of
increase in crime.
Mr. MoRGENTHALER. YcS.
Mr. Parsons. What decision did you arrive at in that study ?
Mr. MoRGENTHALER. In oue city, in Cincinnati, for instance, they
have a transient slielter which is equipped to take care of non-
residents for a short period of time.
Mr. Parsons. Is that done by the Federal Government or the State,
or by a cooperation of the two ?
Mr. MoRGENTHALER. It is douc by the city of Cincinnati and the
State on approximately a 60-40 ratio, the city bearing 60 percent and
the State 40 percent.
Mr. Parsons. Yes.
Mr. MoRGENTHALER. They found, in 19,000 cases brought into police
court, that 763 of them were transients. About 90 percent were not
transients. In other words, 8 percent were the migrants coming
through. The rest were local people, according to police-court records.
Of the 8 percent — 763 — over 90 percent were in on very minor crimes.
We have some small communities where the attitude toward the
transient is, the best way to handle him is to put him in jail over-
night in order to protect the community. That is just their way of
handling them. They have committed no crimes. They merely lock
these people in their jails overnight. The next morning they tell them
to get out of town.
PROOEDURE FOR EMPLOYING AGRICULTURAL LABOR
Mr. Parsons. Mr. Sullinger, are you with the State employment
service ?
Mr. Sullinger. The Ohio State Employment Service.
Mr. Parsons. What kind of procedure have you developed for fur-
nishing labor not only to industry but principally out in the agricul-
tural sections? Do they try to clear through your office?
Ml'. Sullinger. That is right. It is rapidly growing.
Mr. Parsons. Have you taken up the matter Avith the employmeiit
services of other States, if you cannot get labor in Ohio ?
Mr. Sullinger. That is right.
Mr. Parsons. For instance, you say our people here in the North
do not seem to be able to perform this stoop labor. Would you import
any Mexicans for that purpose?
Mr. Sullinger. If they had to have them. Before we w^ould let a
crop fail, or go to ruin, we would go out and get labor, after we had
exhausted the supply of labor in the local community. That is the
1134 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
first thing we do. Before we will let a crop spoil and go to waste,
we will go out and move in enough to take care of the crop, but we
return them immediately after the crop has been harvested. We see
that they are returned.
In the northwest corner of the State it was raining this year. They
could not get workers. We moved them in from Lucas County, but
we immediately moved them back.
Mr. Parsons. Do you have any difficulty in Ohio securing labor
from W. P. A., getting people and taking them off the rolls and put-
ting them into this agricultural work?
Mr. SuLLiNGER. Sometimes we have. We have had to go to the
regional director of the district and get them to shut down a project
to get the labor we needed. We have always been able to get it then.
Mr. Parsons. Do the W. P. A. people accept that kind of employ-
ment or do they rather shun it ?
Mr. SuLLiNGER. They Mke to shun it if they can, but according to
regulations if they turn down any employment like that they are in-
eligible for W. P. A.
Mr. Parsons. Do you consider the problem of agricultural labor
more or le^s a problem of urban migration ?
Mr. SuLLiNGER. Well, no. They are together. It takes them both
to fit into the picture.
Mr. Parsons. There is a considerable problem there, with respect
to urban and suburban.
Mr. Morgenthaler. I think perhaps that is true. I do not know
whether Mr. Sullinger will agree or not. I think it is true that in the
cities because of the dropping off of industry and the fewer number
of men needed, and the fact that they are more acutely in need of
funds, the extra people coming in creates a greater load for them.
They feel it more than do some of the smaller communities or smaller
counties because they have had so many more to take care of among
their own local residents.
NEED or UNIFORM SETTLEMENT LAAVS
Mr. Parsons. You mentioned the settlement problem, the problem
of settlement laws a while ago. We have had varying testimony in all
three places with respect to the settlement status, l^he requirements
ranging all the way from 6 months to 5 years.
Mr. Morgenthaler. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. Would you advocate the abolishment of all settle-
ment laws or try to arrive at uniformity among the States ?
Mr. Morgenthaler. From my experience in working with other
State departments and people in our own State, it is our theory that
uniform settlement laws are very much needed at the present time.
We feel that the States are cooperative and willing to try to reestablish
people where they have lived before, but the laws discriminate against
them to such an extent that they are barred from giving them tempo-
rary assistance, even to help them get located.
Mr. Parsons. If they were all uniform, say 1 3'ear
Mr. Morgenthaler. Yes.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1135
Mr. Parsons. Tlie migi-ants themselves would very soon become
familiar with the 1-year proposition.
Mr. ]\IoRGEN THALER. Yes ; that is true.
Mr. Parsons. But if he is a wide traveler as we have found a lot of
them are, traveling through 8 or 10 or 12 States in the course of a 12-
month period, of course he would have to be a pretty good mathema-
tician to keep up with the requirements in all of those States.
IVIr. Morgenthaler. Of course, some States have passed laws to the
effect that if you declare your intention of going elsewhere you lose
settlement. By moving away from your home, if you make a public
statement or sign an affidavit, you inay lose settlement immediately,
which creates considerable of a problem.
I would like to emphasize the fact that these residents of the United
States — I have heard it mentioned here today by other people — the
persons who have lost settlement at all points are one of our major
problems. There is no way to work our plans for rehabilitation, even
though they seem to belong more logically in other States, if we cannot
get assistance from other States or other localities in developing plans.
It is our feeling that along with a uniform settlement law the legisla-
tion which Mr. Voorhis, of California, has suggested, and with which
you gentlemen are no doubt familiar, would be a good beginning. We
are not sure it should go through exactly as it is, but it would give some
kind of assistance to stabilize people at some point.
Mr. Parsons. You would try to anchor them where they are, if it
were possible to do it, either with Federal, State, or municipal aid, or
a combination of all of them?
Mr. Morgenthaler. Somewhere where they have a possible oppor-
tunity of becoming self-supporting, and staying put, if you want to put
it that way.
Mr. Parsons. What is your comment upon the settlement laws ?
Mr. SuLLiNGER. I substantiate his thought. I think they should be
uniform. I think all States interested should meet and iron it out
and get them uniform, so that we know just where we are.
Mr. Parsons. But you would not advocate complete abolition of
them ?
Mr. Sullinger. Oh, no.
Mr. Morgenthaler. No.
Mr. Sullinger. I would not do that. We have a case down there,
for instance, of a man who happens to be in Fort Wayne, in the Fort
Wayne Hospital now. He lived down in Ohio some years ago. He
went to West Virginia and did not establish a residence there. After-
ward he went to Fort Wayne and was in the hospital. He has run up
an $800 hospital bill, and they will not release him. The town says
they will not pay it and should not pay it. He should have been re-
leased 6 months ago. He should be out, but he is still in there until
they can find out who can pay it. West Virginia says, "He is not
ours." Indiana says, "He is not ours." He is suffering.
Mr. Osmers. He is in effect a prisoner, is he not ?
Mr. Sullinger. Yes. He is suffering. It is unintentional with
him. That is why I say that uniformity of laws would eliminate that
difficulty, and would average things up. We might pay for somebody
J 236 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
from Indiana and they might pay for us. After the thing was all
balanced up, it would be pretty much of an equal proposition.
Mr. Sparkman. The way it stands now, it seems that all of the States
are racing against one another in order to get rid of the responsibility.
Mr. MoRGENTHALER. That is right.
Mr. SuLLiNGER. That is right.
Mr. MoRGENTHALER. It is a matter of who can bring the most pres-
sure to bear. They soon must realize that they are approaching the
problem with the wrong attitude.
Mr. SuLLiNGER. They come in, and they do not even take the trouble
to feed them. They pass them on to the next town, and say, "You take
care of them." That does not encourage settling down or stability or
anything. That just keeps them rolling. It is not encouraging.
Mr. Curtis. In that connection, do you not feel too that someone who
has settled and is on relief should be given every opportunity to go
and try his luck at private employment if he has the strength and am-
bition to do so without holding over him the fear that he belongs to
no one, if his venture does not succeed ?
Mr. MoRGENTHALER. That is right.
Mr. SiTLLiNGER. That is right.
Mr. MoRGENTHALER. From our viewpoint, I would like to emphasize
what Mr. Sullinger has said about the matter of labor exchange, the
matter of getting men to jobs and helping them find it, instead of fol-
lowing the pattern which has been followed for years of letting them
go out and hunt jobs when the chances are they will not find them more
often than they will.
CATALOG OF MIGRANTS FOR LABOR EXCHANGE
Mr. Parsons. If we had all of these migrants cataloged and had a file
on them — even if there are 4,000,000, it would not take such a long time
to catalog those family groups, because there probably would not be
more than a million family groups.
Mr. Sullinger. That is correct.
Mr. Parsons. If we had them cataloged and their children cataloged^
and the employment offices had these files, and all of the States too,
would that not help out the problem ?
Mr. MoRGENTHALER. Quite so. I am glad you mentioned the chil-
dren.
Mr. Parsons. Then you would find out who was the type of migi'ant
who was self-supporting, that was needed for labor in these various
places. You would find out the professional bums, and you could take
steps to weed them out of the picture.
In that way you could find out those that were the right type, and
then find some way to anchor them, with Government aid or State aid,,
or a combination. Would that be too great a task to attempt ?
Mr. MoRGENTHALER. I am quite sure that many of these men repre-
sented in these figures here are looking for work. In fact, we know of
some of the migrants who come into Cleveland and other cities and find
jobs where local people do not. Why they do is a speculation. Some
of them just have more "get out and go" than others. We feel that if
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1137
you can make it possible for a man to know where he can look for a job,
rather than just getting out and blindly hunting for it, it would be
better all the way around.
Then, too, you have the problem of children. We have families
coming through, with children being taken from place to place. You
have healtli problems, school problems, and so forth.
Mr. Parsons. Very many of these children are working in the bean
patches and berry patches and so forth because they do not have to do
so much bending as the adults have to do.
Mr. SuLLixGER. Here is another illustration for the need of the thing
you just mentioned : In the southeastern part of Ohio we have a large
coal field. Mechanization of the mines has created a problem so that
where thej' have installed certain types of machinery, 20 out of 26 men
are now out of work. That ratio exists in all of the mechanized mines.
Mr. Parsons. Twenty out of twenty-six?
Mr. SuLLiNGER. Yes.
Mr. MoRGENTHALER. For the most part those men stay there on relief.
If they could be classified, as I understand they are now for the rearma-
ment program, as to skills, through Mr. Sullinger's office, there w^ill be
some possibility of rehabilitating them. The ones who do go out,
become nonresidents, which causes difficulty in other States.
Mr. Parsons. That is right. With respect to that problem, I have one
county very highly industrialized in coal mining, and another mining
in fluorspar, in my congressional district, where they have mechanized
the mines. Not only has it been difficult for those miners, but it removes
any opportunity for their sons to go into the mines, which has been the
case for the past two or three generations.
Mr. Morgenthaler. That is right.
Mr. Parsons. That presents a very serious problem in the State of
Pennsylvania. That is an old mining State. It presents a problem
in West Virginia. It presents one in the coal fields of Illinois.
Mr. Morgenthaler. Exactly.
IMr. Parsons. It used to be that these boys when they grew up went
into the mines. Back during the old war days, and during the days
following, the miners made more than anyone else, practically. They
made $12 or $15 a day. The wage rate was $5.50, at the lowest, up to
$12 or $15 per day, and the sons followed the fathers' footsteps, be-
cause it was a very good job. Now, mechanization has not only thrown
the men out of work, but it has also thrown the sons out of work, and
removed any further opportunities of employment.
Mr. Morgenthaler. Exactly.
Mr. Parsons. A few years ago down in southern Illinois one of the
mining companies closed down one of their mines because it was not
profitable to operate. They had them both mechanized. However,
they then made this proposition to the men : If the men would work
for $1 a day less, I think it was $5.50 and $4.50, they would take out
the loading machines in order to carry the whole load of both mines,
or the one mine they still operated. The men signed up and it worked
out very well, but 2 or 3 years ago all of the other mines mechanized
around them in order to meet competition in the price of coal, and they
1138 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
had to put the machines back in, and half of those men are stranded
i"ight now.
Are there any other questions ?
Mr. MoRGENTHALER. There is one more thing I would like to say.
The people in Cincinnati have taken the position that when a man
comes in, a transient comes in to ask for aid, he asks for work. In
other words, he does some work in return for what he gets. Tliey feel
that is an important philoso]Dhy to hold towards that type of aid.
Mr. Parsons. Do you think so ?
Mr. MoRGENTHALER, We think it is a very good idea.
Mr. Parsons. So do I.
RECOMMENDATIONS
Mr. IMoRGENTHALER. If auy kind of Federal aid should be extended,
we urge and suggest that it not be similar to the extent of the Federal
Transient Program. That was very generous, may we say
Mr. Parsons. Too generous.
Mr. MoRGENTHALER. We feel there is need to standardize settlement
laws, but that assistance should not be a blanket sort of thing, such as
the Federal Transient Program was.
Mr. Parsons. Are there any other suggestions that either of you
have to make ?
Mr. SuLLiNGER. There is only one more thing I would like to say.
I feel the State laws ought to be uniform. They ought to get together
and iron this problem out, so we would have one uniform qualification
for establishing citizenship.
Mr. Parsons. This is a national problem, is it not ?
Mr. SuLLiNGER. That is right.
Mr. Parsons. Congress, of course, cannot tell the States what kind
of settlement laws to pass, but if we prescribe legislation involving
grants-in-aid, we can make it as a qualification.
Mr. MoRGENTHALER. That is right.
Mr. Parsons. 1 year, 6 months, 18 months, or whatever we thought
best under the circumstances.
Mr. MoRGENTHALER. Something they would all feel could be ac-
cepted. That was why our transient committee felt there was merit
in the Voorhis bill. It did offer that possibility. It offered the pos-
sibility of Federal aid to States which would conform to this general
level. The State departments have been working in that direction. I
think we have worked with this problem long enough to be convinced
that that is true. The American Public Welfare Association in Chi-
cago has given considerable leadership to that through the conferences
they have sponsored for State Welfare Department officials. I think
we are firmly convinced that some kind of uniformity must be reached
if we are going to get out of this tangle.
Mr. Parsons. The State Governments Association has done a very
fine work.
Mr. MoRGENTHALER. YeS.
Mr. Parsons. Is Frank Bane connected with it?
Mr. MoRGENTHALER. YeS.
I
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1139
Mr. Parsons. He left Social Security to take over that work.
Mr. MORGENTHALER. YeS.
Mr. Parsons. If we had had sense enough a good many years ago
to open our emplo^nnent offices, both Federal and State, we could
have saved a lot of this problem of congestion in certain areas.
Mr. MoRGENTHALER. That is right.
Mr. SuLLiNGER. That is right.
Mr. Parsons. Of course, under the Constitution, we cannot regulate
the activities of the States directly, even though in some instances
it would be much better for them if we did regulate them. It is pretty
much like the family group. Dad is always the boss of the family,
or supposed to be, but the children sometimes resent being bossed,
although it would be much better if they did not.
After all, they are just grown-up children to that extent.
]\Ir. MoRGENTHALER. We fccl that is true to a great extent. We feel
that if we could get some help from some Federal agency when the
States are in difficulties, it would be helpful. We went into deadlocks.
We spend time writing letters and trying to arrive at some basis be-
tween us. We feel that would be very helpful.
Mr. Parsons. Thank you, gentlemen. Both of you have contributed
very greatly to us here by your testimony, and these statements you
have filed. They will be received and made a part of our formal
record.
Mr. Parsons. Do you want to file these charts which you have
r)resented as exhibits ?
Mr. MoRGENTHALER. YcS.
Mr. Parsons. We can receive them, I think, by special permission
granted to us to cover such things in the hearing. These two charts
showing the trends in the State of Ohio will be received and made a
part of the formal record.
Mr. Parsons. We appreciate your taking the time to come here,
and we wish to thank you for the valuable information you have
given us.
Mr. MoRGENTHALER. We will be glad to cooperate further in any
way we can.
Mr. SuLLiNGER. Mr. Hammond, director of the Ohio State employ-
ment service, asked me to express his regrets, but due to certain
activities in connection with the preparedness program, he just could
not get up here.
Mr. P.^RSONs. Mr. Hammond?
Mr. SuLLiNGER. Yes.
Mr. Parsons. Very well, gentlemen. Thank you very much.
(Whereupon, Mr. Morgenthaler and Mr. SulUnger were excused.)
Mr. Parsons. We will stand adjourned until 10 o'clock tomorrow
morning.
(Whereupon, at 4 : 50 p. m. a recess was taken until 10 a. m. tomor-
row, Wednesday, August 21, 1940.)
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280370 — 40
(Pace p. 1141) No, 1
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INTEKSTATE MIGRATION
WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 21, 1940
House of Representatives,
Select Committee to Investigate the
Interstate Migration of Destitute Citizens,
Washington, D. C.
The committee met at 10 a. m., in the Federal Court Building,
Chicago, 111., Hon. John H. Tolan (chairman) presiding :
Present: Representatives John H. Tolan (chairman), Claude V.
Parsons, John J. Sparkman, Carl T. Curtis, and Frank C. Osmers, Jr.
Also present: Dr. Robert K. Lamb, chief investigator; James S.
Owens, chief field investigator: Abe Kramer, field investigator; John
W. Abbott, field investigator; Ariel E. V. Dunn, field investigator;
Joseph N. Dotson, field investigator ; Robert H. Eagan, field secretary.
TESTIMONY OP P. D. BECK, DIEECTOR, REGION III, FARM SECURITY
ADMINISTRATION, INDIANAPOLIS, IND.
The Chairman. The Committee will please come to order. Mr.
Beck will be the first witness. Congressman Sparkman will interro-
gate you.
Mi\ Sparkman. Will you state your full name, address, and capacity
for the record, Mr. Beck?
Mr. Beck. P. D. Beck, director, region III, Farm Security Adminis-
tration, Indianapolis, Ind.
Mr. Sparkman. Mr. Beck, you have filed with us quite a com-
prehensive statement that has been made part of the record, and will
be gone over carefidly. It might be that you want to summarize
that, or else we might bring out some of the facts by questions.
Whichever way you prefer to proceed, we will be glad to follow that
<?ourse.
Mr. Beck. If it is agreeable with you, I would be very happy to
have you just raise questions you think will be of particular interest.
The Chairman. Your entire statement will become part of the
record.
Mr. Beck. I so understand.
1141
-|^J42 INTERSTATE MIGRATION
(The statement referred to is as follows:)
Statement BY P. D. Beck, Director, Region III, Farm Security Administration,
Indianapolis, Indiana
REDUCING migration THROUGH ADJUSTMENT OF PEOPLE TO LAND
I am very grateful for your invitation to discuss some of the aspects of the
problem of rural migration in the Middle West.
The Farm Security Administration is extremely interested in the present
migration through this region, about which other witnesses are testifying at
this hearing. Existing conditions among migrants are being examined here
which call for corrective action by governmental agencies. The establishment of
migratory labor camps, following patterns previously developed by the Farm
Security Administration in other regions of the Nation, may be necessary to meet
immediate problems of unhealthy, unsanitary, and intolerable living conditions,
not only for the benefit of the migrants themselves, but also to protect established
population from the infiltration of disease.^ The provision of this type of assist-
ance within the limits of available funds, is one of the tasks undertaken by the
Farm Security Administration.
We also are extremely interested in the possibility of halting unnecessary
and undesirable rural migration through the development of a program for
needed rural works. Dr. Will W. Alexander, former Administrator of the Farm
Security Administration ; Mr. R. C. Smith, my predecessor as Farm Security
Administration director in region III, who is now with the Bureau of Agri-
cultural Economics, and other witnesses testified at length on such a program
before the Senate Civil Liberties Committee in April.
Both of these approaches to the problem of rural migration — relief of present
deplorable conditions and creation of new rural employment — are of major
importance.
Inasmuch as your committee will doubtless explore these and other matters of
direct national concern to the Farm Security Administration in Washington, I
would like to discuss another problem affecting migration, which is of particular
and growing concern to the people of this area.
That problem is the adjustment of people, or population, to available land
resources.
This hearing is being held in the heart of one of the most abundantly endowed
land areas of the Nation.
In 1934, when the National Resources Board reported on the land resources
of the Nation, its inventory showed that a little more than 7.5 percent of the
101,000,000 acres of "grade A" land in the United States — the finest cultivable
land — was within the five States which comprise Farm Security Administration
region III (Iowa, Missouri, Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio) and Farm Security
Administration region 2 (Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota). This "grade A"
land the Resources Board described as "excellent land for the staple crops climati-
cally adapted to the region in which it lies." ^
The Board's inventory also showed that 36 percent of the Nation's 211,000,000
acres of "good," or "grade B" land, was in these two Farm Security Adminis-
tration regions."
There is, combined, more than 48 percent of the two "good" grades of land in
the United States in these eight States.
With such abundant land resources, it might be expected that the area sup-
ports more than 24.7 percent of the farm population. That, however, is the per-
centage of the Nation's farm population within the eight States, as shown by the
Agricultural Census of 1935.°
In other words, here in the Middle West, one-fourth of the farm population of
America in 1935 was tilling one-half of the best croplands.
There is not sufficient data available to accurately estimate the relation of
people to land resources in the eight States today.
1 Michigan has anopheles mosquitoes, carriers of malaria. It is not now a malaria area,
but the State has sent examiners to Texas to examine prospective migrant farm labor to
prevent malaria carriers from introducing the disease in the northern State.
2 See table 1, attached.
3 See table 2, attached.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION 1143
However, we have been aware for some time that farmers are rapidly being
displaced from the rich lands of the so-called Corn Belt. Displacement of
farmers, and reduction in number of farm units through consolidation of farms,
of course, widens the disparity between our percentage of farm population and
available land resources.
Early this year we conducted a survey of the extent of displacement in the
five States of region III through our county supervisors. This survey showed
that out of 57,941 standard rehabilitation borrowers, 2,.'^36 who had' loans in
1939 and conducted farming operations were unable to get places for the 1940
crop season. The county supervisors reported that another 6,246 applicants for
Farm Security Administration assistance, eligible for loans if they could find
farms, were unable to get located. They also reported that they knew of 16.120
other renters, not applicants for Farm Security Administration assistance, who
could find no place to farm during the present year.''
These figures, which we then considered conservative and now have additional
reason to give credence, show a total displacement of 24,702 farm families in
this rich land area. Apparently a similar situation exists in the three northern
States of this Middle Western area — Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan. I
am advised that in our region II, made up of those States, there were 213 Farm
Security Administration borrowers who had to be "closed out" and their farming
equipment and livestock sold to satisfy Farm Security Administration loans
because they could not find farms. Another 838 for various reasons migrated
out of that region and were transferred out of the States in which they formerly
resided. Most of them went to the West, to Iowa, and to Illinois.^
Some of these displacements undoubtedly were caused by migration into the
region II States. The in-migration to region II, according to records kept in
the office of Regional Director Harry Muir, amounted to 369 families." A
majority of these families migrated eastward out of North and South Dakota,
the drought areas, into Minnesota.
We have noted this same eastward movement out of the drought area into
western Iowa and Missouri. Our county supervisors in those areas, stating
the causes for the displacement which they reported in the spring, mentioned
this eastward migration.
The situation apparently is continuing. I have just received a letter through
our State director in Iowa which tells of displacement of Iowa farmers by
people moving from Nebraska. The letter was written on August 7. An excerpt
from it says :
"The field man for one of the insurance companies advised me on this date
that of the 86 real-estate items which he managed in this territory he has sold
33 since January 1. Seventeen of these items have been in Clarke County. Of
the 33 sold, 12 have been to Nebraska farmers who plan to move next March 1
to this territory. He further advises that, out of the 17 sold in Clarke County,
he has definite knowledge that 32 of the present tenants will be forced to move
on next March 1. It has been the policy of this particular insurance company
in the past to make every effort to place their tenants on one of their farms if
the tenant's present farm was sold. However, he advised me that for the
coming year he feels that it will be almost impossible for them to take care of
more than 1 or 2 of the 12 in this county which he knows for sure will have to
move."
The principal causes the supervisors cited for displacement throughout our
region III, however, were the enlargement and consolidation of farms because
of mechanization, return of owners from rural urban areas to their farms,
deterioration of land resources, and failure of farmers to "make a go of it"
either through lack of ability or because of reverses beyond their control.
While we have been aware for some time of this displacement, we have just
obtained some preliminary data in region III indicating the extent to which
consolidation of farms and decline in number of farm units is reducing the
opportunity for farmers to find a place on the land in the IMiddle West.
Our county supervisors have reported to us, where obtainable, the number of
farms enumerated in their counties in the 1940 census enumeration.
* See table 3, attached.
" See table 4, attached.
• See table 5, attached.
260370 — 40— pt. 3 22
1144
I^^TERSTATE MIGRATION
Tabulation of these reports shows that in 94 of Missouri's 114 counties, where
231137 farm units were reported in the Agricultural Census of 1935, the 1940
census takers found only 217,146 farm units this year. This is a decline of
13,991 farm units in the 94 counties. It is a loss of U.U5 percent which, if applied
to the total of 267,176 farm units in the State in 1935, would indicate a decline
of 16.146 farms in the State between 1935 and 1940.'
Missouri is known as one of the five States contributing most heavily to Pacihc
coast migration. This decline in farm units in the State in the past 5 years
may be one reason why. Every time a farm unit disappears, there is a farm
family which must provide for itself elsewhere, either through migration to
another area or to an urban center to get employment in private industry or on
Work Projects Administration or direct relief.
Despite Missouri's recognition as a major source of migrant farm workers,
the decline in farm units in that State is not at all out of line with the decline
in other rich Middle Western States.
Census takers in 50 of Indiana's 92 counties have reported disappearance of
9,135 farm units since 1935. This decline, at the rate of 8.065 percent, indicates
a' possible total decline for the State of 16,197 farms.' , „„ ..
In Ohio we have prelinuuary census reports from 69 of the 88 counties, and
there is a loss of 14,130 farming units between 193.1 and 1940 retlected in those
counties. This is at the rate of 6.92 percent, indicating a possible total decline
uf 17,681 farm units for the entire State." . ^,,. . ™
We have the preliminary census data from only six counties in Illinois. Ihey
reflect a loss of 491 farm units out of 12,8o3 enumerated in 1935.'" Probably no
tlose estimate of total decline of farm units in the State is justified from such
meager data, but final census tabulations will show a disappearance of farming
units proportionate to adjacent States, we believe.
In the State of Iowa our oflicials have used another base for determining the
Kituation, the reports of assessors on farms of 3 acres and more. These I'^Ports
ihow that in spite of a large increase in the number of farm units between Q930
and 1935 when the depression caused a considerable "back-to- the-f arm move-
ment and piling up of surplus farm population, there were ev en fewer farms m
Iowa in 1940 than there were in 1930. There were 210.343 farm umts in 1940,
as compared to 213,993 in 1930. The agricultural census for 193o, the mtei-
vening peiiod, shows 221,936 farm units in the State. The decline between 19o0
and 1940 appears, conservatively, to have been at least 10,000 units.
Extremely significant Iowa figures which have also been reported to me con-
cern the size of farms. The assessors' reports indicated that the average size
of farms in 1930 was 159 acres. The 1935 Census showed this had declined to
154 8 acres. The 1910 assessors' reports show that it has again grown to 164
acres per farm— an average of 5 acres larger than in 1930.
We fretiuently receive individual reports from our personnel telling of the
clients who are being displaced by expanding operators. I am attaching an ex-
cerpt from one such recent report which sliows not only how one of our client
farmers is being displaced but indicates the intense competition for land among
renters which too frequently is resulting in overly high rents and wastetui
mining of the soil to meet these excessive rental payments. In this case, our
client Mr Joseph A. Arnaud, was farming 100 acres and paying $400 rent. He
has been notified to move next March 1 because another farmer, already farming
3->5 acres, is offering $450 rent for the place to add to his present acreage.
"l believe that on the basis of available data a conservative estimate of decline
in farm units between 1935 and 1940 for the 5 States mentioned would be < 0,000
"°The people so dislocated will by no means all become interstate migrants.
Many of them undoubtedly will, however, and their ranks will be swelled by
farm laborers who, as well as farm owners and tenant farmers, have been
^ AnTndica^tion of^what'is happening to these people is contained in a study which
the Indiana State Unemployment Compensation Service has just made tor us.
f See table 6, attached.
8 See table 7, attached.
8 See table 8, attached.
i» See table 9, attached.
" See table 10, attached.
INTERSTATE MIGRATION
1145
On the week of August 5, they ran a survey of cards of 8,073 applicants for work
in 6 cities and towns. Out of the 8,073, they found that 1,487, or a little more
than 18 percent, had been farmers, tenants, or farm laborers within the last 3
years. Only 95 of the 1,487 have been able to obtain employment. There were
another 271 employed by the Work Projects Administration."
This decline in farm units is occurring in face of an ever-increasing population
on farms. Farm population estimates as of January 1, 1940, issued by the Bureau
of Agricultural Economics, indicate that in the 5-year period our farm population
has grown from 31.800,907 persons to 32,245,000— an increase of about 445 000
persons. '
In spite of a net migration from farms to cities ranging from 202,000 to 447,000
each year, farm population is piling up — the ever-increasing surplus apparently
subsisting as migrant workers, or on Work Projects Administration or relief
The Farm Security Administration, because of this dangerous displacement
from the land, has interested itself in encouraging rehabilitating and implementing
the efficiency of so-called family-sized farms.
In the richer land areas— and there is no major area with more extensively
abundant land resources than the Middle West— we are especially interested in
this problem. In 1934 the census shows that there was an average of 51 8
acres of land harvested in each farm in the East North Central States and 77 1
acres harvested per farm in the West North Central States. This compares to
average harvested acreage of 25.6 in New England, 37.4 in the Middle Atlantic
24.4 m the South Atlantic, 22.6 in the East South Central States, 42 4 in the West
South Central, 54.0 in the Mountain States, and 43.6 in the Pacific States
Even these figures on harvested acreage must be considered along with land
grades, which I have previously mentioned, to get a true picture of the present
adjustment of people to land resources in this area as compared with other areas
of the United States.
Here in the Middle West, our agricultural press and daily newspapers are rais-
ing the question whether or not we must make a choice"^ between familv-sized
farms or, as one paper put it, '-Grapes of Wrath."
The Farm Security Administration is doing as much as it can with available
appropriations to help disadvantaged and financially distressed farmers retain
their foothold on the land.
In the 8 States in regions II and III, we now have outstanding standard
loans to more than 91,000 farm families who were unable to get credit from any
other private or governmental agency. These loans were made to permit them
to obtain materials needed for a live-at-home program, and for stock and equip-
ment necessary for a sound farming operation. In addition, we have outstanding
more than 70,000 emergency loans, made for short periods to tide distressed
tarmers over some such emergency occurrence as a storm, flood, drought, or crop
There has also been developed a community and cooperative service program to
assist groups of small farmers to obtain the a 
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